Wednesday Volume 516 20 October 2010 No. 55

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 20 October 2010

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2010 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 929 20 OCTOBER 2010 930

Mr Hurd: We have planned a series of initiatives for House of Commons the forthcoming years to promote wider volunteering and to connect people again with their own power to Wednesday 20 October 2010 make a difference locally—that is the heart of the big society. I cannot be drawn on the detail of those plans, because they are subject to the spending review. The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab): If voluntary service for young people is to work, the third PRAYERS sector has to still be alive. This afternoon the Chancellor is going to try to drive a steamroller over the big society. [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Can the Minister explain why, in answer to parliamentary questions from my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar), three quarters of Whitehall could not say what contracts they had in place with the Oral Answers to Questions third sector? How can the Department protect the third sector from cuts this afternoon if it does not know what contracts are in place? Is the Minister not, in effect, flying blind? CABINET OFFICE Mr Hurd: I suspect that the right hon. Gentleman The Minister for the Cabinet Office was asked— will eat his words later when he hears the Chancellor. I do not see any steamroller in evidence in relation to the Volunteering (Young People) big society, which is absolutely central to the Government’s mission. A central strand of that mission is to open up 1. Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland the public services to a more diverse set of providers, West) (Lab): What recent steps his Department has including and specifically contributions from the voluntary taken to increase opportunities for young people to and community sectors. As the right hon. Gentleman volunteer. [18048] well knows, they are in a position to add a huge amount of value. That is a specific commitment of this Government, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick and we are going to deliver on it. Hurd): In the current financial year, the Department has provided £39 million in grants to the v organisation. Government Procurement On 22 July, the Prime Minister announced the introduction 2. Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): What steps he has of the national citizen service to give young people an taken to increase the efficiency of his Department’s opportunity to develop the skills needed to be active mechanisms for Government procurement. [18049] and responsible citizens, mix with people from different backgrounds and start getting involved in their communities. 8. Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): What steps he has taken to increase the efficiency of Mrs Hodgson: I thank the Minister for his response. his Department’s mechanisms for Government At a fringe event at the Conservative party conference, I procurement. [18055] understand that the Minister for the Cabinet Office was quoted as saying that in his opinion the big society The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster would be “chaotic and disorderly”. That being the case, General (Mr Francis Maude): Procurements of major I feel that his heart is perhaps not in it. How can he go projects by the British Government have typically taken on to encourage young people to volunteer so that they 77 weeks. They have frequently involved the extensive can pick up the right skills and be employed fruitfully in use of external consultants. That process is costly and the future? wasteful, excluding small businesses, social enterprises, and voluntary and charitable organisations. That results Mr Hurd: We are absolutely committed to that, and in procurements that are too often uncompetitive, delayed, the national citizen service will be an extremely important expensive and ineffective. We are taking steps to streamline opportunity to connect young people with their own the process. In the meantime, we are renegotiating contracts power to make a difference in their communities. I with the bigger suppliers to the Government on a know that the hon. Lady took a strong interest in that single-customer basis, thus leveraging the Government’s through her work on the Select Committee on Children, buying power. That will deliver some £800 million-worth Schools and Families. If she had had the opportunity to of savings in this financial year alone. talk to some of the young people who had taken part in this year’s pilot, she would have been as impressed as I Stuart Andrew: Sir Philip Green’s report showed just was by the transformative effect that it had on them and how little time the previous Government afforded to the on how they view their community and their own power basic principles of cost-effective commissioning and to make a difference. We are very excited about it. procurement. Does the Minister feel that that attitude is embodied in the ill-considered note left by the ex-Chief Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): Voluntary Secretary to the Treasury as he left his old job? organisations in my constituency rely on the great efforts of many people who are retired, and they are crying out Mr Maude: If the last Government, including the for younger volunteers. Those volunteers need not just right hon. Gentleman, had bothered to spend the time be teenagers, however. What plans do the Government that we are spending getting into the unglamorous parts have to facilitate opportunities for volunteering by people of Government spending to find out just how much of working age? money can be saved, he might not have felt it necessary 931 Oral Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 932 to leave a note in quite the stark terms that he did, true 13. Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): What recent though it was. The fact is that there is a huge amount of progress has been made on his Department’s review of wasteful spending. Sir Philip Green has done a sterling non-departmental public bodies. [18060] service in picking up some stones and providing the evidence for that, and we will be acting on his The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster recommendations to see how we can take costs out of General (Mr Francis Maude): Last week I announced the overheads of Government. That is the best way to the first results of the Government’s review of quangos. protect front-line services and to protect the jobs of This is a work in progress; the principal aim is to dedicated public servants, which the right hon. Gentleman increase accountability. We believe that where the state claims to care about. carries out a function it should be accountable to a Minister or to a local council unless one of three Julian Smith: Does my right hon. Friend agree that rigorous tests is met. To pass, the function must be small business has been locked out of the procurement purely technical, tasked with measuring facts or figures, process for far too long? Will he start to give small or plainly required to be politically impartial. We reviewed businesses, particularly those in Yorkshire, a fairer crack 901 bodies and intend that nearly 200 will cease to be of the whip? NDPBs, and we will merge a further 118 and substantially reform a further 171. Mr Maude: A big benefit arising from the changes that we are proposing to make to the way in which Charlie Elphicke: Does the Minister agree that the services are procured is that they will open the door to review should include the misuse of public funds by smaller businesses. Over-prescriptive procurements make quangos and public sector balance sheet organisations it very expensive for small businesses to take the risk of in paying lobbyists to brief against the Government or committing to tendering, and they tend to be excluded elected Members in the execution of their mandates? on a self-selecting basis. We want to change that. It is our aspiration that 25% of contracts should be let with Mr Maude: Guidelines already limit the use of external small and medium-sized enterprises. That is the direction consultants for those purposes, and we intend to tighten in which we hope to go, and I am sure that my hon. them further, because the public find it quite offensive Friend’s constituents in Yorkshire will take full advantage that a quango should be spending taxpayers’ money on of it. hiring external consultants to lobby the Government to Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): encourage them to spend more taxpayers’ money. Will the Minister be able to publish information in future to show that his aspiration to help small business Chris Skidmore: Will the Minister tell the House how is not just an aspiration but a reality? many quangos were created by the previous Government and, of those, how many will remain as a result of the Mr Maude: One of the stark conclusions of Sir Philip changes that he is introducing? Green’s review was that the quality of Government data is lamentably poor. It is not easy to know exactly what Mr Maude: As I said, we will reduce significantly the the position is. The right hon. Member for Birmingham, number of NDPBs. The right hon. Member for Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) referred to the lack of centrally Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) was bragging the held data about contracts with the voluntary and charitable other day about how many quangos he was planning to sector; that merely begins to illustrate the problem. get rid of, but sadly the last Labour Government failed to act on their intentions. Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): The Minister talks about small and medium-sized enterprises gaining Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): Last week the Minister more from Government contracts, but can he indicate announced that many quangos would be done away what he is doing to ensure that there is a good spread of with and their responsibilities transferred to third sector that throughout all regions of the United Kingdom? organisations. Will he assure the House and myself that those organisations, such as citizens advice bureaux, Mr Maude: All regions and nations across the United will be properly resourced so that they can provide Kingdom should be able to benefit from that aspiration. people with specialised advice? Will he dispel the myth We are going to expose much more widely the tender that this is being done on the cheap? documents that are available so that small businesses will find it much easier to take part in these sometimes Mr Maude: The aim of the quango review is not quite intimidating processes that have excluded many of particularly to save costs or money—although it will—but them in the past. [Interruption.] principally to increase accountability. When functions are transferred, such as consumer advocacy functions Mr Speaker: Order. I understand that the House is to CABs, there will be a transfer of resources. The hon. eagerly anticipating later business, but when there is a Gentleman will have to wait a little longer to hear the constant hubbub it is very discourteous and most unfair extent of those resources. both on the person wanting to ask the question and on the Minister deputed to answer it. Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): Why does the Non-departmental Public Bodies Minister intend to disembowel the Equality and Human Rights Commission? Does he not believe that its 3. Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): What recent responsibility to promote equality on behalf of women progress has been made on his Department’s review of and ethnic minorities is important? Why is he reducing non-departmental public bodies. [18050] it to a purely regulatory body? 933 Oral Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 934

Mr Maude: Many people felt that that body was not Mr Speaker: Order. Unfortunately, that question suffers spending taxpayers’ money well. Its function is important from the disadvantage that it bears absolutely no relation and we concluded that it justified the EHRC continuing to the question on the Order Paper. We must have to exist as an independent body, but given that we are another go, so I call Stella Creasy. facing a situation in which, as the former Chief Secretary helpfully pointed out, there is no money left, significant Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): The tender savings have to be made. The EHRC will have to play its document for the national citizen service pilot sets out part in that. the Government’s refusal to meet the total costs of the programme. Just how much of the bill does the Minister National Citizen Service expect the voluntary sector and young people themselves 4. Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): to meet? What recent progress has been made on establishing Mr Hurd: The cost of the pilots will be revealed as a the national citizen service. [18051] result of the spending review. We are committed to two 7. Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con): What years of pilots to test a range of approaches to delivering recent progress has been made on establishing the the service, which will help us to identify the most national citizen service. [18054] cost-effective way forward. We will have a clear idea of the likely costs of a wider roll-out of the national citizen The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick service once we have evaluated the two-year pilot phase. Hurd): In July, the Prime Minister announced the start of the bidding process for providers of national citizen Social Enterprises service pilots. We have been really pleased with the response, and in the next few weeks we expect to announce 5. Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): What assessment the successful bidders. We expect to provide places for he has made of the likely effect on social enterprises of about 10,000 young people, with a good geographical reductions in Government expenditure. [18052] spread. The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Mr Oliver Mary Macleod: The national citizen service is a great Letwin): Of course, social enterprises will be affected by example of how young people can make a difference in the spending review. However, as part of our structural their local communities. What can I do to persuade reform programme, we are bringing forward huge new people in Brentford and Isleworth to get more involved opportunities for the social enterprises of this country— in the project? indeed, for the voluntary and community sector as a whole—to participate in the delivery of public services. Mr Hurd: I thank my hon. Friend for her interest. As I said, the successful bidders will be announced shortly. Richard Fuller: I am heartened by my right hon. They will be responsible for recruiting local young Friend’s response. He may be aware of the current people and communicating the opportunities in their uncertainty surrounding Foxgloves residential home, area. If a pilot is run in her area, I urge her to support which provides respite care for families of children with its provider, as I would urge all MPs to do. The experience epilepsy and autism. It is working well with the council of young people in the pilots that have already taken to find a solution, but other solutions should come place just down the road from her in Hammersmith has from the community. Are there are any plans to bring been extremely positive. forward the use of unclaimed assets so that social enterprises can draw on them to provide alternatives, Charlotte Leslie: In my constituency, some of the and the parents at Foxgloves can continue to use it and richest wards exist side by side with some of the poorest secure its future? wards in the country. Can the Minister reassure me that children from more disadvantaged backgrounds will Mr Letwin: The sort of case that my hon. Friend also be encouraged to get involved in the national raises is relevant to our concerns, and we are very citizen service? focused on that. It is one reason for our introducing the Mr Hurd: I can certainly give my hon. Friend that big society bank, which will be partly funded in just the assurance, and those children will be more than encouraged. way that he describes, and can, in turn, fund social Involving people from all kinds of backgrounds is a enterprises and voluntary and community service central aim of the programme and a key part of its organisations that require funding in the interim. value. As part of the commissioning process, organisations bidding to deliver a pilot next summer have been asked Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): to set out their specific plans to support the broadest According to research by the National Council for range of young people to participate. [Interruption.] Voluntary Organisations, third sector organisations that provide education and training opportunities could be Mr Speaker: Order. There are still far too many the most imperilled by public spending cuts. What is the private conversations taking place in the Chamber. I Minister doing to ensure that training opportunities in want to hear, and I hope the House wants to hear, Steve the third sector remain? Has he pressed the Department Rotheram. for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Treasury on that? Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): As a former employee of a quango, I am following the Minister’s Mr Letwin: I think that the reverse will turn out to be much-vaunted “bonfire of the quangos”, as he called it. the case, in the sense that the Government are planning Now that the comprehensive spending review is upon a huge and terribly important Work programme, which us, can he tell the House what the total savings will be? will focus heavily on not only getting people into jobs, 935 Oral Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 936 but training them for jobs. We are also greatly enlarging Public Services (Third Sector) the programme of apprenticeships, and there are various other elements, about which hon. Members will hear in 9. Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) the spending review announcement. Consequently, we (Lab): What recent assessment he has made of the anticipate more, not fewer opportunities for voluntary effectiveness of the use of third sector organisations by and community organisations to participate in training local authorities in delivering public services. [18056] and employment. The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Mr Oliver Commissioning and Procurement Letwin): As I mentioned in my response to my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller), the 6. Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) Government believe that the voluntary and community (Con): What recent progress has been made in sector has a huge role to play in providing public delivering his Department’s policies on Government services. Indeed, our intention is vastly to enlarge the commissioning and procurement. [18053] potential for that to occur.

The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster Catherine McKinnell: Newcastle city council has reassured General (Mr Francis Maude): Commissioning is currently me of its commitment to using the voluntary sector, but too prescriptive; tender documents can be immensely what will the Minister do to ensure that the severe cuts lengthy, specifying every detail of every step in every to local authority funding do not mean that the big process. That stifles innovation, excludes new entrants society is just an underfunded big con? to the market and adds wholly unnecessary cost. We intend that commissioning should be outcome-based, Mr Letwin: We are extremely conscious of the fact leaving much more scope for innovative providers from that there may be a gap between when we introduce the the social enterprise, voluntary, charitable and small new reforms that I described and when the effect of the business sectors to bid. Whenever possible, commissioning expenditure cuts is felt. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor should be based on a payment-by-results model. will have very much to say on that when he makes his statement, and I would not want to pre-empt what he On procurement, I refer my hon. Friend to my reply will say on how we will handle that situation. to Question 2. [Interruption.] Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con): Suffolk county council Mr Speaker: Order. Once again, I understand the was recently part of the body that commissioned drug excitement and anticipation, but the House must come and alcohol treatment services in Suffolk. Unfortunately, to order. Such conduct makes a bad impression on the a very small, excellent charity in my constituency—the electorate, whose support we so recently sought. Iceni Project—was excluded from that process because of its size. What can the Minister do to ensure that the Stephen Metcalfe: I thank my right hon. Friend the Iceni Project will be included, and will he agree to meet Minister for his answer. Following his earlier comments, it and me? I seek assurance that small and medium-sized enterprises in my constituency can access Government contracts. Mr Letwin: I would of course be delighted to meet Can he give me any examples of practical help now or my hon. Friend and the charity in question. As we in future that would make that easier to achieve? restructure contracts in the way in which my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office mentioned—away Mr Maude: We certainly hope that that will be the from hugely prescriptive tender contracts and into payment case. It is our aspiration that 25% of Government by results—I hope we will find that there are huge contracts should end up in the small and medium-sized opportunities for charities such as the small one in my sector. We are committed to publishing online, in an hon. Friend’s constituency to participate and deliver easily accessible form, all Government tender documents. excellent results. We should not have the huge bureaucratic That will make it much easier for small businesses, burdens that prevent the smaller voluntary and community which can otherwise be put off the process, to take part. organisations from participating.

Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab): In terms of Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): I am sorry commissioning and procurement, the public sector procures to say that the Minister sounds rather naive. I went to £13 billion-worth of services from the charitable sector. visit Crisis in Sunderland. Three quarters of its money On Monday, a think-tank suggested that the Government’s comes from a combination of housing benefit and local statement today will wipe out about £5 billion of that government grant. When both those are cut, how can it procurement—the whole of the increase that was achieved maintain its services? in the past 10 years. What are the Minister’s intentions for funding the voluntary sector? How does he reconcile Mr Letwin: I think the hon. Lady is ignoring the cuts in that sector with the Prime Minister’s aspiration extent to which our programme of structural reform for the big society? will enlarge opportunities for people to participate in services from the voluntary and community sector— Mr Maude: We are very aware of concerns in the [Laughter.] Opposition Members may not believe that, sector. The Chancellor is very aware of them, and will but that is because they did not try to find ways to have something to say about the matter a little later. deliver services on the basis of payment by results, or to However, there must be reductions in public spending find ways that actually work. We know that voluntary for the simple reason that the former Chief Secretary and community organisations are capable of that. When set out with such uncharacteristic lucidity in his valedictory they do it, they will find that there is access to a large note. amount of revenue that is currently denied to them. 937 Oral Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 938

Departmental Procurement The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others 10. Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): What steps his and, in addition to my duties in the House, I shall have Department is taking to share best practice in further such meetings later today. procurement among Departments. [18057] Mr Bone: During this Parliament, our contributions The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster to the European Union will increase by £17.5 billion, so General (Mr Francis Maude): Procurement of basic yesterday’s cuts to the defence budget will not go to commodities was carried out without any effort to reduce the deficit, but to subsidise our European partners. leverage the scale and buying power of the whole This is obscene. What would the Prime Minister like to Government—[Interruption.] say to the European Union? Mr Speaker: Order. I understand the excitement, but I hope that that practice, which was discontinued some The Prime Minister: First, the point is that the previous time ago, will be discontinued in future. The Minister Government gave away some £8 billion of rebate and must be heard. got nothing in return. I am clear that we will not accept any increases in the EU budget in the next seven-year Mr Maude: That led to one part of the Government financial perspective. We have called for a cash freeze in buying basic office supplies at seven and a half times the size of the EU budget for 2011 and we are working the cost that other parts incurred. Allowing wasteful hard to make this case across Europe. Just yesterday, I spending of that type to remain unreformed would spoke to the new Dutch Prime Minister as he is another mean that front-line services and the jobs of dedicated ally in trying to ensure that, as we make difficult decisions public servants would be more at risk. We are mandating at home, we do not spend extra money on the EU that all Departments and public bodies should in future budget. buy through supplier contracts negotiated on behalf of the whole of central Government. That will cut the Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): I want to costs of Government overheads by some—[Interruption] start by asking the Prime Minister about something that the Justice Secretary said. Unfortunately, he has [Interruption.] Mr Speaker: Order— Order. In so far become part of the “squeezed middle” due to the logjam as we could hear the Minister, I think we have got the on the Tory Front Bench. Three weeks ago, the Justice drift of it. Secretary—a former Chancellor—said: Mark Pawsey: I thank the Minister for his reply in as “I do not rule out the risk of a double-dip recession”. much as I heard it. It is sound commercial practice to On the same day, the Prime Minister said that the UK maximise buying power by adding together the purchases economy was out of the danger zone. Which of them is of all bodies within an organisation and to use that to right? drive down prices from suppliers, yet Sir Philip Green found waste arising from huge variation in the prices The Prime Minister: First, let me compliment the paid by different Departments. What steps will the Justice Secretary because he has something that I am Minister take to co-ordinate Government procurement not sure the Leader of the Opposition has yet acquired, in future? which is bottom. Mr Maude: We will be mandating that all of central If the Leader of the Opposition read out the full Government should buy through centrally negotiated quotation from the Lord Chancellor he would find that contracts. That will save £500 million in the current year it referred to western Europe as a whole. That is the alone, and will drive savings running into billions of point. Perhaps he would like to read out the whole pounds in the years that lie ahead. quote now.

Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): Will Edward Miliband: The—[Interruption.] Let me be the Minister ensure that best practice in sustainable and very clear about this. The Justice Secretary said: green procurement is part of his briefing in ensuring “I do not rule out the risk of a double-dip recession” best practice in Departments, and does he consider that the abolition of the Sustainable Development Commission because of global fear and crisis. He was talking about will help or hinder him in that process? the United Kingdom. It is a very simple question for the Prime Minister. Who is right? Is it the Justice Secretary Mr Maude: We are committed to procuring in a way when he does not rule out the risk of a double-dip that is sustainable, but I do not agree with the hon. recession? Or is the Prime Minister saying that the Gentleman that maintaining a quango is a guaranteed Justice Secretary has put his foot—or his Hush Puppy—in way to achieve that. it? Is he saying that the Justice Secretary was wrong to say that there was a risk of double-dip recession in the UK? PRIME MINISTER The Prime Minister: Of course, the Leader of the The Prime Minister was asked— Opposition must ask the questions and I must answer Engagements them, but he must—if I may say so—ask a complete question which should include the complete quotation. Q1. [18063] Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): If Have another go. he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 20 October. Edward Miliband rose—[Interruption.] 939 Oral Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 940

Mr Speaker: Order. I want time for Back Benchers, forecasts that employment will rise next year, the year especially those on the Order Paper. Let us make some after and the year after that. That is the independent progress. forecast, and one of the reasons for that is that we have taken the economy out of the danger zone. He asks Edward Miliband: Look, the Prime Minister knows as about the Energy Secretary, but what is interesting well as I do that there are risks in the global economy, about this Government is that two parties have come including to the United Kingdom. The Chief Secretary together in the national interest to sort out the economic revealed yesterday that half a million jobs will be lost as mess that was left by the other. That is what has the result of the Chancellor’s announcements today. happened, and that is why there is real unity in this What people who are in fear of losing their jobs will Government in dealing with the mess that we inherited. want to know is what the consequences of the spending review will be for them. They will think that this spending Edward Miliband: Let me give the Prime Minister review will be a failure if it leads to rising unemployment another chance, because the truth is that the global next year. Will the Prime Minister say that he agrees economic outlook is uncertain, as the former Chancellor with them that the spending review will be a failure if admits—the Prime Minister does not really want to unemployment were to rise next year—yes or no? admit it—and it could affect the UK. The question that people will be asking as they watch these exchanges is The Prime Minister: That is a much better question; I this: if things change, and if unemployment were to rise think we are making some progress. The whole point of next year, will the Government revise their tax and the Government’s approach is to take the British economy spending plans? It is a simple question; the Prime out of the danger zone, which is where it was left by the Minister can just say yes or no. last Government. This is very important: the choice that we were left with when we came into power was to The Prime Minister: Where the right hon. Gentleman accept what the last Government had set out, but this is is absolutely right is that we live in a dangerous world what was said about that. The Governor of the Bank of economy, and the outlook for the world economy is England said that it was “not a credible plan”, the CBI choppy and difficult. That is what the Justice Secretary said that it was not a “credible path”, the OECD said was talking about and what the Chancellor has been that it was a “weak fiscal position”, and the IMF said talking about. The question for the Government is this: that it was not good enough. We had a choice: should in an uncertain world economy, are we taking the we keep what we were left with or should we take bold British economy out of the danger zone? Are we doing action to get Britain out of the danger zone? That is the right thing to protect the long-term interests of what we have done. That is what today is all about, and people’s jobs and livelihoods? That is what we are it is time that the right hon. Gentleman asked something doing. What the right hon. Gentleman is doing is thoroughly relevant to that. irresponsible, and I think he probably knows it.

Edward Miliband: The Prime Minister began by saying Edward Miliband: This is very interesting, because the that it was a good question, then he said that it was Prime Minister used to say that he was a different type irrelevant. Which is it? Let me give him another— of Conservative, but I have given him the chance to say [Interruption.] I know that he is getting advice from the that he will change his plans if unemployment rises, and Chancellor; he can answer the questions himself. Let me he has ducked the chance to do so. We all remember the try the Prime Minister on another question, because he catchphrases: “If it isn’t hurting, it isn’t working”; did not answer that one. “Unemployment is a price worth paying”. He sounds The Energy Secretary, who does not seem to be exactly like that. What we have is a Prime Minister around—[HON.MEMBERS: “He is here!”] Oh, he is there. lashed to the mast of the tax and spending plans. Excellent. I am glad that he is here. The Energy Secretary Should he not admit it? He is taking the biggest gamble says that the Government should not be “lashed to the in a generation—with growth, with people’s jobs and mast” of the Government’s tax and spending numbers with people’s livelihoods. were economic circumstances to change. Does the Prime Minister agree? In particular, if at the end of November The Prime Minister: We all remember some catch the Office for Budget Responsibility were to forecast a phrases: “No more boom and bust”—remember that rise in unemployment next year, does the Prime Minister one?—and “Prudence with a purpose”, which left us think that the tax and spending judgments of the with the biggest budget deficit in the G20. We remember Government should change? Yes or no? that, and who was the economic adviser at the Treasury at the time? He is sitting right there—[Interruption.] The Prime Minister: First, to respond to what the right hon. Gentleman said about me and the Chancellor, Mr Speaker: Order. The Prime Minister must be I know that it is a novel concept, but in this Government heard. the Prime Minister and the Chancellor speak to each other. The Prime Minister: Let me give the right hon. Gentleman On unemployment, the independent Office for Budget one simple piece of advice that I learned sitting in his Responsibility—which we have established and which is seat for five years: if you have not got a plan, you fully independent—is forecasting that unemployment cannot attack a plan. He has not got a plan, so he has will fall next year, the year after and the year after that. got nothing to say—[Interruption.] It is forecasting that employment—[Interruption.] One question at a time, please. The right hon. Gentleman is Mr Speaker: Order. Order. Be quiet now! I call Nicky very eager. The Office for Budget Responsibility also Morgan. 941 Oral Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 942

Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con): Charnwood other countries, is going to meet the United Nations borough council has completed the online publication, target of 0.7% of gross national income for overseas aid three months early, of all its expenses over £500. In the by 2013. We have made difficult choices under this light of today’s announcements, is it not right that Government in order to deliver that, and to keep our taxpayers want to know exactly how much is spent in international promise to some of the poorest people in their name and what the money is spent on? the world. Every party in the House can be proud of the role that it will play in ensuring that Britain stands up The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely for aid in our modern world, and we can put pressure right, and one of the ways that we will try to save money on other countries to do the same thing. while not losing too many jobs in the public sector is by making sure that we are more efficient. One of the best Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con): Will the Prime Minister tools for efficiency is transparency: putting online what join me in backing the supporters of Ilkeston Town is spent and how it is spent, and what people’s salaries football club in my constituency who are working hard are can help to drive down costs in a way that makes to put together a bid to save the club? If they are public services better while saving money at the same successful, it will be the first supporter-owned football time. club under the new coalition Government, and a real asset to us in Erewash. Q2. [18064] Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): Many of my constituents fear for their jobs. Will The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a good the Prime Minister reassure them by explaining how point. Many hon. Members will have football clubs in cutting science funding is part of a strategy for growth? their constituencies that sometimes struggle financially, Germany is increasing its science funding by 7%. On and seeing one owned by its supporters is a very positive jobs, is the Prime Minister’s message to Newcastle: move. I hope she will not mind if I spend more of my “Auf wiedersehen, pet”? time on another football bid, which is the very important The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady makes a very bid to make sure that England hosts the World cup in good point, which is that, in making spending reductions— 2018. whoever had won the last election would have had to Q4. [18066] Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): I have make spending reductions—it is vitally important that already briefed the Prime Minister on the likely impact we try to protect economic growth. The last Government of the interim cap on migrant workers on a leading- were committed to 20% departmental spending reductions, edge company in my constituency. The one graduate and I can say—without, I hope, pre-empting all of my sponsorship licence issued has suddenly been right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s withdrawn. Can the Prime Minister assure me that he statement—that I hope she and the whole House will will review this case urgently, as this expert is pivotal to find that we have struggled hard but we have been able growth and jobs in our community? to freeze the science budget in cash terms, which is a good outcome for science. The Prime Minister: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving me notice of his question. I will arrange for the Mr Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): Minister for Immigration to look urgently at this case. Will the Prime Minister join me in paying tribute to the The point is that we have consulted business and other work of Save the Children and other charities that deal interested parties on how the limit should work. We with development work in some of the most difficult have also asked the Migration Advisory Committee to places in the world? Does he share my delight in today’s consult on what the actual limit should be. The consultations news of the release of Frans Barnard in Somalia? are closed and we will announce the findings in due The Prime Minister: I do, and I am very grateful to course. The reason for an interim cap is that it was my hon. Friend for raising this case. We have been in important to have a temporary limit to ensure that there close contact with Save the Children over the kidnap of was no closing-down sale, as it were, before the final Frans Barnard, who is doing vitally important work on limit was introduced. I will make sure that the Minister its behalf in Somalia, and we are delighted by the news for Immigration gets in touch with the hon. Gentleman that he has been freed by his kidnappers. Let me praise about this case. the professionalism of Save the Children and thank the Somali clan members who were involved in his release. I Q5. [18067] Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): am sure that it will be good for him to be back with his May I ask my right hon. Friend a question of which I family after what must have been a very frightening and have given him prior notice? Will he tell the House why difficult few days. he believes that the first-past-the-post system for election is far fairer than the alternative vote system? Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): On the day when more than 2,000 supporters of Christian The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend tempts me into Aid, including some from my own constituency, have answers that will not delight everyone on this side of the come to Parliament in support of a cross-party consensus House. I am clear that I have always supported the on protecting the aid budget, does the Prime Minister first-past-the-post system. I like to have the individual agree that we should be leading a global crackdown on link between constituency and MP. In some cases, the the tax-dodging that costs poor countries more each alternative vote would have led to even more disproportional year than they actually receive in aid? outcomes in national elections. Let me thank my hon. Friends who I know have misgivings about this referendum The Prime Minister: I do; on a day when I am sure for allowing the Parliamentary Voting System and that there will not be cross-party agreement on everything Constituencies Bill to go through. I think we should that is discussed, we should just take one moment to make this argument in the country rather than try to celebrate the fact that this country, almost alone among wreck the Bill in the House. 943 Oral Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 944

Q6. [18068] Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): The Prime Minister: I agree with my hon. Friend. Now that the final day of the Chancellor’s judgment This is a point that I have made at the European has arrived, can the Prime Minister assure me by Council in the past and that I will make again at the confirming that the decision taken on the 50,000 savers next one. There are allies for these views in Europe. I of the Presbyterian Mutual Society will be both fair talked about the Dutch Prime Minister; the Germans and equitable? Will he assure us that no sleight of hand are also unwilling to see increases in the budget in will be used in delivering the full financial package future. We need to work with these allies to try to promised by the previous Administration to the explain that it is just unacceptable. When we are making Northern Ireland Executive? difficult decisions at home, Europe should be doing the same with its own budget. The Prime Minister: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. Having already announced one of the Q8. [18070] Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) Chancellor’s nuggets from his speech, it would be testing (Lab): Is it wise and right that Ministers invest in our friendship if I announced another. I gave my word offshore tax havens? about finding a settlement for the PMS. I know how important this is in Northern Ireland. I know that The Prime Minister: I think that that issue was fully people lost money and that there was frustration raised by Channel 4, and fully answered by the Government. that Ministers would stand at the Dispatch Box and say Everyone should obey the law; everyone should pay that no one had lost money during the financial crash—they their taxes. did in the PMS. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be satisfied by what the Chancellor has to say in a moment. Q9. [18071] Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Despite the Prime Minister’s earlier answers, can I tell him that at a Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): Last week, I time when we are cutting budgets in this country, it is joined a parliamentary delegation to China, where I absolutely unacceptable that the Government rubber- was able to pick up a copy of Chairman Mao’s “Little stamped an increase in the budget of the European Red Book”. Is the Prime Minister interested to learn Union? Given that he pledged at the general election that Chairman Mao said: that only two budgets would be ring-fenced—those for “Thrift should be the guiding principle in our government the health service and overseas aid—will the expenditure.”? Government go to the European Union and say that If Mao Tse-tung supports coalition policy, does that we are not only talking about freezing the budget, but not mean that the Labour party is in a minority of one? want it to take the pain and cut its budget? The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a fair The Prime Minister: I am glad that my hon. Friend point, but the fact is that we opposed the increase in the has been travelling and seeing the world. [Interruption.] budget that he voted against the other night, and will go on opposing increases in the budget. The key is the next Mr Speaker: Order. I want to hear the Prime Minister’s financial perspective: that is the best way in which to views about Chairman Mao. control the budget. We need to build allies for that, we need to build our argument for that, and we need to The Prime Minister: I am glad that my hon. Friend is make sure that Europe starts to live within its means. travelling the world and learning so much. We learned a few weeks ago that even Cuba is making reductions in Q10. [18072] Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): The public spending, so I think this puts the modern Labour North East chamber of commerce has reported that party somewhere between China and Cuba—but I am 17,000 construction jobs are at risk as a direct result of not quite sure where. proposed cuts in local councils. For some of us in the House, unemployment is not just a subject for Q7. [18069] Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East theoretical discussion. Some of us have lived through Falkirk) (Lab): Following a meeting with the Northern and experienced the real desolation that unemployment Ireland human rights commissioners yesterday, it is means. Will the Prime Minister now tell us clearly clear that this Government intend to breach the spirit whether he believes today what he believed in and the letter of the Good Friday and the St Andrews 1992—that unemployment is a price worth paying? agreements by refusing to bring in a Human Rights Act specifically for Northern Ireland, as recommended by The Prime Minister: I do not take that view at all. I the commission and supported recently by more than take the view that we must do everything we can to get 80% of the Protestant and Catholic communities. How our people into good and well-paid jobs. I have to say, can the Prime Minister possibly excuse this betrayal of however, that if we do not tackle the deficit, every job in the people of Northern Ireland? the country will be under threat. That is the point. We are not doing this because we want to; there is no The Prime Minister: I thank the hon. Gentleman for ideological zeal in doing this. We are doing this because his question. I will look at that carefully; I know that it we have to. has been discussed. It is a difficult issue and there are The hon. Gentleman mentioned the British Chambers some problems that we need to resolve, but I will look at of Commerce. What the British Chambers of commerce it and write to the hon. Gentleman. said at the time of the Budget was that this Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Does the “will have positive effects on business and investor confidence” Prime Minister agree that it is completely unacceptable and that the European Union is expanding its bureaucracy “will be welcomed by companies the length and breadth of the while here in the UK we are cutting ours? country—and across the globe.” 945 Oral Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 946

That is what the chambers of commerce think. They Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): think that we are right to take this action, and they When the Prime Minister accused Labour Members of think that the Labour party is wrong. scaremongering during the general election for highlighting the Conservative threat to take security of tenure from Q11. [18073] Mr David Evennett (Bexleyheath and council tenants and impose massive rent increases on Crayford) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend agree that them, was he goading us to use unparliamentary language you do not need a basic economics primer to know that or was he simply being economical with the truth? when there is a £44 billion black hole in the public finances, you should not propose additional The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman will commitments of £10 billion in speeches made outside hear in a minute what our plans are for bold housing the House around the country? reform that will lead to more social homes being built, but it does not actually involve changes to tenure. I do The Prime Minister: And in speeches after which they think that we have to look at new ways to get houses will not answer any questions, which is a novel approach. built. The fact is that under the last Government we had My hon. Friend is right. We have a problem with the housing targets and vast amounts of investment in deficit in this country, and we have got to deal with it. social housing, but house building was lower in every We have set out the ways in which we are going to do year of the last Government than it was under the that, and we have set out a plan. The Opposition do not previous Conservative Government. That is a common have a plan, and you cannot attack a plan unless you story: vast amounts of money spent, with very poor have one yourself. If all you can do is come up with results. extra taxes for extra spending, you are completely irrelevant to the debate in the country today about how we pay Q14. [18076] Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North down our debts. That is the question, and we have the Poole) (LD): Last week, a special day was allocated to answer. raising awareness of secondary breast cancer. There is an urgent need to collect good data on people living Q12. [18074] Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): with secondary breast cancer in order to improve the Given the Prime Minister’s repeated assurances that the outcomes for people living with that incurable disease. north-east has nothing to fear from him, his Would the Prime Minister be prepared to meet a Government, and public sector job cuts because he delegation from the all-party group on breast cancer believes that the private sector will thrive in the and a few people from the relevant charities? vacuum, can he name just three businesses in the north-east that he believes will be expanding their work forces in the next 12 months? The Prime Minister: I will be very happy to do that, and the hon. Lady is right to raise this issue. We do have The Prime Minister: This week 38 businesses wrote to a good record on cancer in this country, but it needs to the papers backing the action. Those businesses were be a lot better if we are to get it up to the best level in spread right across the country, but let me give the hon. Europe. Part of that is about early diagnosis, which I Lady some satisfaction in terms of the north-east. I have spoken about and on which I know the Health believe that the north-east has a great future in renewable Secretary is taking action. However, as she says, all of energy, and she is about to hear that we are protecting us will have met in our own constituencies people with capital spending so that the carbon capture and storage secondary breast cancer and we need to give the issue projects will go ahead and the investment in wind power more attention. I will be happy to have the meeting she will go ahead. As for the green investment bank, which suggests. lots of people have talked about, we will be putting proper money into it so that it can invest in the north-east Q15. [18077] Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) and elsewhere in the country. (Lab/Co-op): Four years ago, Gary Dunne, from my constituency, was murdered in Spain. His parents, Q13. [18075] Nick Boles (Grantham and Stamford) Lesley and Steve, have fought a long and ultimately (Con): Can my right hon. Friend reassure my successful campaign to have his body returned for constituents who rely on the excellent hospitals in burial in this country. Would the Prime Minister agree Grantham and Stamford that he has rejected the advice to meet Mr and Mrs Dunne to discuss proposals for of the shadow Chancellor, and will protect spending on changes in the law, so that no other family has to go our NHS? through the ordeal that they went through?

The Prime Minister: I can absolutely give that guarantee. The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman raises a That is something on which we fought the election, very important case. Anyone who has lost a relative something that is in the coalition agreement, and something who has died overseas knows the enormous worry that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor will be delivering. about how to deal with these issues and how to get We will have to make difficult decisions, including things sorted out. On behalf of the whole Government difficult decisions about the NHS, but what I can say is and the House, I send my condolences to Mr and that we will fulfil our promise that national health Mrs Dunne. I know that they have dealt with this case spending will not be cut in real terms under this with great dignity and courage. I hope that the fact that Government. That is a big contrast with what we hear they have now been able to bury their son in the UK will from the Labour party, which has said in terms— help them to start to come to terms with their terrible particularly the shadow Chancellor—that protecting loss. I am very happy to meet them and try to work out the national health service is wrong. We do not agree: what we can do to deal with sad situations such as this. we think that it is right. There is a problem when different countries have different 947 Oral Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Oral Answers 948 rules, particularly where the death has occurred some Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): Many time before, but we should try to work it through and I of my constituents are gravely concerned that when am happy to meet them. young people are found guilty of serious crimes and offences and get off with a caution no action is taken Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): Does the Prime against their parents. Will the Prime Minister agree to Minister agree that, if graduates are to be asked to consider that matter and perhaps to have words with make a greater contribution to the cost of their education, the Justice Secretary about what could be done? in order to be fair those with the greatest ability to pay should make the greatest contribution? The Prime Minister: I am very happy to look into The Prime Minister: Yes, I completely agree. In the that issue. As we seek efficiencies and savings in the end, I think that almost everyone in this House wants Home Office and the Ministry of Justice, we are going the same thing: we want well-funded universities; we to have to be reformers. We are going to have to be more want universities that are able to exercise some thoughtful and creative about how we have a criminal independence; we want a growing higher education justice system that carries out punishment in which the sector; we want people from low-income backgrounds public are confident, but that is not so wasteful of to be able to go to the best universities in the country; public money as what we have now. It is a challenge for and we want a proper element of progressivity. That is us and it is a challenge that we will have to rise and what Lord Browne proposes, and we are going to amend meet. that to make it even more progressive. In particular, I think that moving the salary before you start to pay Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): back from £15,000, which we had for many years, to It looks as if there is a possible end to the current £21,000 is a really big step forward. I hope that we can industrial dispute at British Airways. Will the Prime get all-party agreement for what would be a good and Minister join me in sending a clear message to senior proper reform of higher education for the long term in management at British Airways that should the cabin our country. crew decide to return to normal working, there should be no harassment, no bullying and, most importantly, Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab): I am no recriminations? sorry for not giving the prior notice to the Prime Minister, but I am confident that, given his reassurance on the NHS, he will be able to answer my question this The Prime Minister: I think the most important thing afternoon. Does he agree with me and the Secretary of is that this strike ends—that this action ends—and that State for Health that it makes no sense to close Ealing British Airways gets back to working properly. The fact hospital’s accident and emergency department, given is that there is a hugely competitive airlines sector out that 100,000 patients use this service each year? Will the there and those of us who love our national carrier and Prime Minister also take this opportunity to end rumours want it to be a success want to see people go back to of coalition plans to close the entire Ealing hospital? work and work out how to make it compete with others that are striving ahead in the world. That is what we The Prime Minister: I will have to get back to the need, and the last Government did not really say that. hon. Gentleman on the detail of his question, but we believe that those top-down reorganisations that took Several hon. Members rose— place in the NHS, in which many accident and emergency units were closed without taking into account what local people wanted, were wrong. The whole point of Mr Speaker: Order. Before the Chancellor comes to the reform of the NHS is to put power in the hands of the Dispatch Box to make his statement, let me say to patients and doctors, so decisions about hospitals will the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk be made on the basis of what local people want and not (Michael Connarty) that points of order come after on the whim of Ministers. statements. 949 20 OCTOBER 2010 Comprehensive Spending Review 950

Comprehensive Spending Review road to economic ruin. We will stick to the course, we will secure our country’s stability and we will not take Britain back to the brink of bankruptcy. 12.31 pm In the Budget, I set out the tax increases we were The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): prepared to make, including on capital gains at the Today is the day when Britain steps back from the brink higher rate, pensions relief on the largest contributions and when we confront the bills from a decade of debt; a and, for the first time, a permanent levy on banks. We day of rebuilding, when we set out a four-year plan to also had to increase value added tax, where, fortunately, put our public services and welfare state on a sustainable we were able to benefit from the preparatory work in footing for the long term, so that they can do their job the Treasury of the previous Government. I made it of providing for families, protecting the vulnerable and clear that spending reductions rather than tax rises underpinning a competitive economy. It is a hard road, needed to make up the bulk of the consolidation. That but it leads to a better future. is what the leading international evidence suggests works We are going to bring the years of ever-rising borrowing best. So I set out spending totals for the coming years to an end. We are going to ensure, like every solvent and announced some £11 billion of welfare savings that household in the country, that what we buy we can would help to achieve them. I also set out a new fiscal afford, that the bills we incur we have the income to mandate for the public finances to eliminate the structural meet and that we do not saddle our children with the deficit by balancing the cyclically adjusted current Budget interest on the interest on the interest on the debts that over five years by 2015-16. We set a target of national we were not prepared ourselves to pay. debt falling as a proportion of national income by that Tackling this budget deficit is unavoidable. The decisions same year. We explained how, for reasons of caution, about how we do it are not. There are choices, and we will achieve both these objectives a year earlier, today we make them. Investment in the future, rather in 2014-15. than the bills of past failure: that is our choice. We have I can confirm that the spending plans I set out today chosen to spend on the country’s most important priorities: achieve a balanced structural current Budget and falling the health care of our people; the education of our national debt on the same timetable. I can further young; our nation’s security; and the infrastructure that confirm that the current spending totals I set out in the supports our economic growth. We have chosen to cut Budget for each of the next four years are the same as the waste and reform the welfare system that our country the current spending totals I set out today. They have can no longer afford. not changed. Next year, current expenditure will be This is the context of this spending review. We have, £651 billion, then £665 billion the year after and £679 billion at £109 billion, the largest structural budget deficit in the year after that, before reaching £693 billion in Europe—this at a time when the whole world is concerned 2014-15. The House will note that current spending is about high deficits and our economic stability depends rising, not falling, over that period. That is partly because, on allaying those concerns. We are paying at the rate of even with the measures we take today, debt interest £120 million a day, £43 billion a year in debt interest—this payments continue to grow in these years. Debt interest at a time when we all know that the money would far payments will reach £63 billion in 2014-15—it takes better serve the needs of our own citizens than those of time to turn around the debt supertanker—but I can the foreign creditors we borrow from. We have inherited now report to the House that against the plans we from the previous Government plans—if one can call inherited, one of the departments which suffers the them that—that envisaged our national debt ratio still greatest cut today, and at the steepest rate, is the department rising in the year 2014. Not a single penny of savings for debt interest. Debt interest payments will be lowered had been identified. Indeed, they were plans that envisaged by £1 billion in 2012, then by £1.8 billion in 2013 and by the Chancellor of the Exchequer standing here in 2014, £3 billion in 2014—a total of £5 billion over the course presenting a spending review that still had years of of the spending review, which is equivalent to 16 new cutting public spending ahead of it. That is why, last hospitals or the annual salaries of 100,000 teachers. year, the International Monetary Fund warned this At the Budget, I also set out my plans for capital country that it had to accelerate the reduction in the spending over the next four years. I can tell the House deficit. That is why the OECD, the Governor of the that capital spending will be at £51 billion next year, Bank of England and the CBI all agreed with the IMF. then £49 billion, then £46 billion and at £47 billion in The action we have taken since May has taken Britain 2014-15. This is about £2 billion a year higher than I set out of the financial danger zone. The immediate reductions out in the Budget. Given the contractual obligations we to in-year spending have bought us a breathing space in inherited from the last Government, doing anything the sovereign debt storm. The creation of an independent else would have meant cutting projects that would clearly Office for Budget Responsibility has brought honesty enhance the economic infrastructure of this country. back to official forecasts. I can confirm to the House This has no direct impact on whether we meet the fiscal that the OBR and its new chair, Robert Chote, have mandate or the year in which the debt ratio starts audited all the annually managed expenditure savings in falling. So, total public expenditure—capital and current— today’s statement. over the coming years will be £702 billion next year, The emergency Budget in June was the moment when then £713 billion, then £724 billion and £740 billion in fiscal credibility was restored. Our market interest rates 2014-15. In real terms, public spending will be at the fell to near-record lows, our country’s credit rating was same level as in 2008. Our public services and our reaffirmed and the IMF went from issuing warnings to welfare system will be put on a sustainable long-term calling our Budget essential. Now we must implement footing and we will make sure that the financial catastrophe some of the key decisions required by that Budget. To that happened under the previous Government never, back down now and abandon our plans would be the ever happens again. 951 Comprehensive Spending Review20 OCTOBER 2010 Comprehensive Spending Review 952

[Mr George Osborne] fact, in the last three months alone, this economy created 178,000 jobs. So we should remember that, unless we Let me now turn to the spending decisions and the deal with this record budget deficit decisively, many three principles that we propose to apply to the more jobs will be in danger in both the private and the choices that we have made. First, on reform, in every public sector. area where we make savings, we must leave no stone The Cabinet Office and the Treasury will oversee the unturned in our search for waste, and we must deliver programme of Whitehall savings. Both Departments the changes necessary to make our public services fit for will lead by example. The core Cabinet Office budget the modern age. will be reduced by £55 million by 2014-15. Additional Secondly, on fairness, we are all in this together and allocations will be provided to fund electoral reform, all must make a contribution. Fairness means creating a support the big society projects, establish community welfare system that helps the vulnerable, supports people organisers and launch the pilots for the national citizens into work and is affordable for the working families service, which will give young people for the first time a who pay for it from their taxes. Fairness also means right of passage to citizenship. In recognition of the that, across the entire deficit reduction plan, those with challenges faced by the voluntary and community sector, the broadest shoulders will bear the greatest burden; I am establishing a one-year £100 million transition those with the most should pay the most, and that fund to help those facing real hardship. The Treasury includes our banks. will see its overall budget reduce by 33%, and we will Thirdly, on growth, when money is short, we should share the Department’s enormously expensive private ruthlessly prioritise those areas of public spending that finance initiative building, which my predecessor but are the most likely to support economic growth, including one signed up to, by moving part of the Cabinet Office investments in our transport and green energy infrastructure, into the same premises. our science base and the skills and education of our The Chancellor is also a royal trustee, and I want to citizens. say something briefly about the civil list. As I outlined Let me explain now how those principles have guided in the Budget, the 10-year settlement expired this year, our specific decisions. First, on reform, I believe that and no provision for a new settlement had been made the public sector needs to change to support the aspirations when we entered office. and expectations of today’s population, rather than the Her Majesty has graciously agreed to a one-year cash aspirations and expectations of the 1950s, so the spending freeze in the civil list for next year. Going forward, she review is underpinned by a far-reaching programme of has also agreed that total royal household spending will public service reform. We saw over the last decade that fall by 14% in 2012-13, while grants to the household more money without reform was a recipe for failure; will be frozen in cash terms. In order to support the less money without reform would be worse, and we are costs of the historic diamond jubilee, which the whole not prepared to accept that, so we have begun by country is looking forward to celebrating, there will be squeezing every last penny that we can find out of waste a temporary additional facility of £1 million. After and administration costs. that, the royal household will receive a new sovereign Our ambition in this review was to find £3 billion of support grant linked to a portion of the revenue of the savings from the administrative budgets of central Crown estate, so that my successors do not have to Government Departments. With the help of the Green return to this issue as I often as I have had to. review and the work done by my right hon. Friend the Central to this review—[Interruption.] Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General, I can tell the House that we have gone further than we Mr Speaker: Order. All this noise makes progress thought possible in cutting back-office costs. Quangos slower and saps time that would otherwise be available will be abolished; services will be integrated; assets will for Back Benchers to question the Chancellor. Apart be sold; and the administrative budget of every main from anything else, it is unfair and discourteous. Government Department will be cut by a third. The result is this: we promised £3 billion of Whitehall savings; Mr Osborne: Central to this review is the reshaping of we will deliver £6 billion. our public services. First, there needs to be a dramatic Of course, there is a very understandable concern shift in the balance of power from the centre to the about the reduction in the total public sector head locality. A policy of rising burdens, regulations, targets, count that will result from the measures in the spending assessments and guidance has undermined local democracy review. We believe that the best estimate remains the and stifled innovation. We will completely reverse that. one set out by the independent Office for Budget We will give GPs powers to buy local services, schools Responsibility. It has forecast a reduction in the head the freedom to reward good teachers, and communities count of 490,000 over the spending review period. Now the right to elect their police and crime commissioners. let us be clear: that is over four years, not overnight, and Secondly, we should understand that all services paid much of it will be achieved through natural turnover, by for by the Government do not have to be delivered by leaving posts unfilled as they become vacant. Estimates the Government, so we will expand the use of personal suggest a turnover rate of over 8% in the public sector; budgets for special education needs, children with disabilities but, yes, there will be some redundancies, and that is up and long-term health conditions. We will use new payment to the decisions of individual employers in the public mechanisms for prisons, probation and community health sector. That is unavoidable when the country has run services, and we will encourage new providers in adult out of money. social care, early years and road management. We feel responsible for every individual who works For local government, the deficit that we have inherited for the Government, and we will always do everything means an unavoidably challenging settlement. There that we can to help them to find alternative work. In will be overall savings of funding to councils of 7.1% a 953 Comprehensive Spending Review20 OCTOBER 2010 Comprehensive Spending Review 954 year for four years, but to help councils we propose a to provide out of the reserve the resources that our forces massive devolution of financial control. Today I confirm in Afghanistan require. As the Chancellor, I believe that the ring-fencing of all local government revenue strongly that if we ask our brave servicemen and women grants will end from April next year. The only exception to risk their lives on our behalf in active combat, will be simplified schools grants and a public health then we will give them all the tools they need to finish grant. Outside of schools, police and the fire service, the the job. number of separate core grants that go to local authorities Our international influence and commitment to the will be reduced from over 90 to fewer than 10. Councils world are not determined only by our military capabilities; and their leaders will remain accountable, but they will our diplomacy and development policy matter too. no longer have to report on 4,700 local area agreement Savings of 24% in the Foreign and Commonwealth targets. Office budget will be achieved over the review period by The local government settlement includes funding for a sharp reduction in the number of Whitehall-based next year’s council tax freeze to help families when their diplomats and back-office functions. There will be a budgets are tight. We are also introducing tax increment focus on helping British companies win exports and finance powers, allowing councils to fund key projects secure jobs at home, and with the help of UKTI we will by borrowing against future increases in locally collected attract significant overseas investment to our shores. business rates. I can also confirm that this coalition Government Some in local government have concerns about the will be the first British Government in history, and we financing of social care. I can announce that grant will be the first major country in the world, to honour funding for social care will be increased by an additional the United Nations commitment on international aid. £1 billion by the fourth year of the spending review, and The Department for International Development’s budget a further £1 billion for social care will be provided will rise to £11.5 billion over the next four years. Overseas through the NHS to support joint working with councils, development will reach 0.7% of national income in so that elderly people do not continue to fall between 2013; this will halve the number of deaths caused by the cracks of two different systems. That is a total of malaria and save the lives of 50,000 women in pregnancy £2 billion of additional funding for social care to protect and of 250,000 newborn babies. the most vulnerable. Whether working behind the counter of a charity We will also reform our social housing system, for it shop, volunteering abroad or contributing taxes to our is currently failing to address the needs of the country. aid budget, Britons can hold their heads up high and Over 10 years, more than 500,000 social rented properties say, “Even in these difficult times, we will honour the were lost. Waiting lists have shot up, families have been promise that we made to some of the poorest people in unable to move, and, although a generation ago only our world.” one in 10 families in social housing had no one working, Our aid budget allows Britain to lead in the world. It this had risen to one in three by 2008-09. may be protected from cuts, but it is not from scrutiny. I We will ensure that in future social housing is more have agreed with my right hon. Friend the International flexible. The terms for existing social tenants and their Development Secretary a plan of reform that reduces rent levels will remain unchanged. New tenants will be administration costs to half the global donor average, offered intermediate rents at about 80% of the market ends the aid programmes that we inherited in China and rent. Alongside £4.4 billion of capital resources, this Russia, focuses on conflict resolution and creates an will enable us to build up to 150,000 new affordable independent commission to assess the impact of the homes over the next four years. We will continue to money that we commit. improve the existing housing stock through the decent Let me now turn to security at home. Protecting the homes programme, and we will reform the planning citizen is a primary duty of the Government. Our police system so that we put local people in charge, reduce the put themselves in harm’s way to make the rest of us burdens on house builders and encourage more homes safe, and we owe them our gratitude. But no public to be built, with a new homes bonus. service can be immune from reform. Her Majesty’s Within an overall resource budget for the Department inspectorate of constabulary found in his recent report for Communities and Local Government which is being that significant savings could be made to police budgets reduced to £1.1 billion over the period, priority will be without affecting the quality of front-line policing. Tom given to protecting the disabled facilities grant. This will Winsor is leading a review of terms and conditions that go alongside a £6 billion commitment over the four will report on how the police service can manage its years to the supporting people programme, which provides resources to serve the public even more cost-effectively. help with housing costs for thousands of the most Using independent forecasts for the precept, the vulnerable people in our communities. In recognition of settlement that I am proposing today will see police the important service provided by the fire and rescue spending falling by 4% each year. By cutting costs and service, we have decided to limit its budget reductions in scrapping bureaucracy, we are saving hundreds of thousands return for substantial operational reform. of police man hours. Our aim is to avoid any reduction Let me turn now to reforms in our security and in the visibility and availability of police in our streets. defence. Yesterday, my right hon. Friend the Prime Our new national security strategy judges terrorism to Minister set out the conclusions of the strategic and be one of the highest risks facing this country. Therefore defence review. He explained in detail how we will I am prioritising counter-terrorism over the review period, protect the British people, deliver on our international both in the Home Office budget and the single intelligence obligations and secure British influence around the account. We have been assured that this will maintain world. This spending review provides the resources to our operational capabilities against both al-Qaeda and do just that. The budget for the Ministry of Defence its affiliates and against Northern Irish terrorist threats. will reach £33.5 billion in 2014-15, a saving of 8% over This will enable us to meet the terrorist threat and to the period. On top of this settlement, we will continue protect the Olympic games in 2012. 955 Comprehensive Spending Review20 OCTOBER 2010 Comprehensive Spending Review 956

[Mr George Osborne] Many hundreds of thousands of jobs across the whole United Kingdom depend on Britain being a competitive Overall, the Home Office budget will find savings of place for financial services. an average of 6% a year. The Ministry of Justice’s Our aim will be to extract the maximum sustainable budget will reach £7 billion by the end of the four-year tax revenues from financial services. We will assess what period, with an average saving of 6% a year. A Green those maximum revenues could be—not just in one Paper will set out proposals to reform sentencing, intervene year, but over a period of years. We have already decided, earlier to give treatment to mentally ill offenders and in the face of opposition from the previous Government, use voluntary and private providers to reduce reoffending. to introduce a permanent levy on banks. The legislation Some £1.3 billion of capital will also be provided over will be published tomorrow. Once fully effective, the the period to maintain the existing prison estate and permanent levy will raise more net each year and every fund essential new-build projects, but plans for a new year for the Exchequer than the one-year bonus tax did 1,500-place prison will be deferred. last year. I note that the previous Chancellor now The Law Officers’ Department will reduce its budget admits that that failed to curb behaviour and was not by a total of 24% over the period, with the Crown sustainable. Prosecution Service greatly reducing its inflated cost However, that is not enough. We want the banks to base. Reforms will also be required to streamline the pay not just by the letter of the tax law, but by its spirit. criminal justice system, close underused courts and A year ago, the previous Government announced in a reduce the legal aid bill. We do need fair access to fanfare that they would require banks to sign up to the justice but provided at a fair cost for the taxpayer. code of practice on taxation. I have asked the Revenue All the reform that I have spoken of—to Whitehall how many of our leading 15 banks actually signed up. and the way services are provided, to local government The answer is four—four out of 15. That is what and to our defence, security and justice system—will happened when they were in office—all talk and no improve both value for money for taxpayers and the action. service provided to the public. Next month, each I have instructed the Revenue to work with the banking Government Department will publish a business plan sector to ensure that the remaining banks have implemented setting out its reform plans for the next four years, so the code of practice by the end of next month. We will that that their priorities are clear and the public can also address the situation under the last Government hold them to account. where the gap between the taxes owed and the taxes paid grew considerably. So in this spending review, Reform is one of the guiding principles of this spending while the HMRC budget will be expected to find resource review—and so, too, is fairness. Let us be clear: there is savings of 15% through the better use of new technology, nothing fair about running huge budget deficits and greater efficiency and better IT contracts, we will be burdening future generations with the debts that we spending £900 million more on targeting tax evasion ourselves are not prepared to pay. How ironic that it and fraud. This additional £900 million is expected to was the last Labour Prime Minister himself who once help us collect a missing £7 billion in tax revenues. Nor observed that will fraud in the welfare system be tolerated any more. “Public finances must be sustainable over the long term. If We estimate that £5 billion a year is being lost in this they are not then it is the poor…that will suffer most.”—[Official way—£5 billion that others have to work long hours to Report, 2 July 1997; Vol. 297, c. 304.] pay in their taxes. This week we published our plans to Not that he is here in the Chamber today. That is why step up the fight to catch benefit cheats and deploy we are restoring order to our public finances before that uncompromising penalties when they are caught. is allowed to happen. That brings me to the wider welfare budget. A civilised A fair Government deal with the deficit decisively, country provides for families, protects the most vulnerable, and that is what we are going to do. A fair Government helps those who look for work, and supports those in make sure that those with the broadest shoulders bear retirement. That is why one of the first acts of this the greatest burden. The distributional analysis published coalition Government was to re-link the basic state today shows that those on the highest incomes will pension to earnings and guarantee a rise each year by contribute more towards this entire fiscal consolidation, earnings, inflation or 2.5%. Never again will those who not just in cash terms but also as a proportion of their worked hard all their lives be insulted with a state income and consumption of public services combined. pension increase of just 75p. But this guarantee of a decent income in retirement has to be paid for at a time I completely understand the public’s anger that the when people are living much longer than anyone predicted. banks, which were so appallingly regulated over the last We should celebrate that fact, but also confront it. Lord decade, and whose near-collapse wrought such damage Turner’s report on pensions, commissioned by the last to our economy, should now be contemplating paying Government, acknowledged that a more generous state high bonuses. We are overhauling the system of regulation pension had to be funded by an increase in the pension that we inherited, so that the Bank of England, with its age. Even since its publication, life expectancy has risen clout and reputation, is put in charge. We have set up further than it predicted. the Independent Commission on Banking to look at the Before the summer, we launched a review on increasing structure of the industry, and next year we will receive the state pension age, and that review has now concluded. its report. As a result, I can announce today that the state pension Today we set out very clearly, for all to take note of, age for men and women will reach 66 by 2020. This will our objective in taxing the banking industry going involve a gradual increase in the state pension age from forward. We neither want to let banks off making their 65 to 66, starting in 2018, and it will mean an acceleration fair contribution, nor do we want to drive them abroad. of the increase in the female pension age already under 957 Comprehensive Spending Review20 OCTOBER 2010 Comprehensive Spending Review 958 way since this April. From 2016, the rate of increase will unsustainable and unfair. The last Government promised be three months in every four rather than the current reform and flunked it: we will deliver. plan of one month in every two. Raising the state My right hon. Friend the Work and Pensions Secretary pension age is what many, many countries are now is setting out proposals, with my support, to replace all doing, and will by the end of the next Parliament save working-age benefits and tax credits with a single, simple over £5 billion a year—money that will be used to universal credit. The guiding rule will be this: it will provide a more generous basic state pension as we always pay to work. Those who get work will be better manage demographic pressures. off than those who do not. This represents the greatest Earlier this month, we also received the interim report reform to our welfare state for a generation. It will be from John Hutton’s public service pensions commission. introduced over the next two Parliaments at a pace that I am sure that the whole House will want to thank John ensures that we get this right. I have set aside over this Hutton for his excellent and independent piece of work. spending review more than £2 billion of resources to I welcome his findings. I hope that it will form the basis make this happen, and it will go alongside our new of a new deal that balances the legitimate expectations Work programme, which we are also funding today. of hard-working public servants for a decent income in Drawing on the skills of the voluntary sector and retirement with the equally legitimate demands of hard- private providers, the Work programme will provide working taxpayers that they do not pay unfairly for it. intensive help for those looking for work and support I think that the elements of this new pension deal are for those who could look for work but currently lack the clear. We should accept that public service pensions confidence or the skills to try. continue to provide a form of defined benefit and that The Department for Work and Pensions will make there is no race to the bottom of pension provision. We savings to help to deliver these schemes by increasing want public service pensions to be a gold standard. At the use of digital applications and reducing overheads. the same time, we should accept that they must be But we will also be seeking substantial savings from the affordable. When these public service pension schemes rest of the £200 billion benefit bill, on top of those were established in the 1950s, taxpayers made half the already identified in the Budget. As I said in June, the contributions; today, they make up two thirds of the more we could save on welfare costs, the more we could contributions, and the unfunded bill is set to rise to continue other, more productive areas of Government £33 billion by 2015-16. spending. And in the massive public consultation we We should accept, as John Hutton does, that there conducted over the summer, the overwhelming message has to be an increase in employee contributions, although we received was that the British people think it is fair to I also agree with him that this should be staggered and reform and reduce welfare bills in order to protect progressive. That means that the lower-paid—and those important public services. in the armed forces—are protected, and the highest-paid So today I announce these further welfare savings. public servants, who get the largest benefits, pay the We will time limit contributory employment and support highest contributions. We will await the full commission allowance for those in the work-related activity group report next spring before coming to any conclusions on to one year. This is double the length of time that the exact nature of the defined benefit and the progressive applies to contributory jobseeker’s allowance. We will contribution rise. We will also launch a consultation on increase the age threshold for the shared-room rate in the fair deal policy, as he recommends, but we will now housing benefit from 25 to 35, so that housing benefit carry out, as the interim report suggests, a full public rules reflect the housing expectations of people of a consultation on the appropriate discount rate used to similar age not on benefits. We will give local authorities set contributions to these pensions. From the perspective greater flexibility to manage council tax, together with of filling the hole in the public finances, we will seek direct control over council tax benefit, within an overall changes that deliver an additional £1.8 billion of savings budget that will be reduced by 10% from April 2013. per year in the cost of public service pensions by We will align the rules for the mobility and care 2014-15, over and above the plans left to us by the last elements of disability living allowance paid to people in Government. residential care, generating savings but enabling us to It is also clear that the current final salary pension continue with this important benefit. We will freeze the terms for MPs are not sustainable, and we anticipate maximum savings credit award in pension credit for that the current scheme will have to end. We will make a four years, thereby limiting the spread of means-testing further statement following the publication of Lord up the income distribution. Hutton’s findings. We will further control the cost of tax credits by The welfare system is also there to help people of freezing the basic and 30-hour elements for three years; working age when they lose their job, have a disability, we will change the working tax credit eligibility rules so start a family and need help with low pay. But the truth, that couples with children must work 24 hours per week as everyone knows, is that the welfare system is failing between them; and we will return the child care element many millions of our fellow citizens. People find themselves of the working tax credit to its previous 70% level. We trapped in an incomprehensible out-of-work benefit will also introduce a new cap on benefits. No family that system for their entire lifetime because it simply does does not work will receive more in benefits than the not pay to work. This robs them of their aspirations average family that does go out to work. That is tough, and opportunities, and it costs the rest of the country a but fair. Of course, those in receipt of disability living fortune. Welfare spending now accounts for one third of allowance, working tax credit or the war widow’s pension all public spending. Benefit bills soared by 45% under will be excluded. the previous Government. In some cases, the benefit bill Taken together, all these welfare measures I have of a single out-of-work family has amounted to the tax outlined will save the country £7 billion a year. But we bills of 16 working families put together. This is totally want to ensure that low-income families with children 959 Comprehensive Spending Review20 OCTOBER 2010 Comprehensive Spending Review 960

[Mr George Osborne] As the independent forecasts we published in the Budget show, we need to make those savings to deal are protected from the adverse effects of these essential with our ageing population and the rising costs of new savings—because this Government are committed to medical treatments, but there are also new services we ending child poverty. I can announce today that I am can offer. A new cancer drug fund will be provided, increasing the child element of the child tax credit by a spending on health research will be protected, and we further £30 in 2011-12 and £50 in 2012-13 above indexation. will prioritise work on the treatment of dementia. We This will mean annual increases of £180 and then will expand access to psychological therapies for the £110 above the level promised by the last Government, young, the elderly and those with mental illness. We will and it will provide support to 4 million lower-income fund new hospital schemes, including the St Helier, the families. And I can confirm that using the same model Royal Oldham and the West Cumberland. we inherited, the spending review will have no measurable For health spending, as for other spending impact on child poverty over the next two years, while announcements, there will be consequential allocations we await the conclusions of the report by the right hon. for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The Barnett Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field). formula will be applied in the usual way, which means Let me now turn to the universal benefits. I have that the increase in health spending and the relative taken the difficult decision to remove child benefit from protection of education spending will feed through to families with a higher rate taxpayer. I wish it were the devolved resource budget. It means that all three otherwise, but I simply cannot ask those watching this nations will actually see cash rises in their budget, earning just £15,000 or £30,000 a year to go on paying although rises below the rate of inflation. For Scotland the child benefit of those earning £50,000 or £100,000 a the resource budget will rise to £25.4 billion in 2014-15. year. The debts of the last Labour Government, and the For Wales it will rise to £13.5 billion, and for Northern need to ensure that the better-off in society also make a Ireland to £9.5 billion. In Scotland we are proceeding fair contribution, make this choice unavoidable. It also with the implementation of the Calman reforms. In means that no further changes to child benefit are Wales we will consider with the Assembly Government required. Child benefit will continue to be paid in the the proposals in the final Holtham report, consistent normal way to the great majority of the population with the Calman work being undertaken in Scotland. from birth until a child leaves full-time education at the In Northern Ireland, the collapse of the Presbyterian age of 18 or even 19. We can afford to do that because, Mutual Society has caused great hardship, and people according to the latest independent estimates we have have been left without their money for far too long. I received from the Office for Budget Responsibility, removing confirm today that we will provide the Northern Ireland child benefit from higher rate taxpayers will actually Executive with £25 million in cash and a £175 million save Britain £2.5 billion a year. loan to help those who have lost their life savings. We will also keep the universal benefits for pensioners, We will also help those across the United Kingdom in recognition of the fact that many have worked hard who have lost money as a result of the collapse of and saved hard all their lives. Free eye tests, free prescription Equitable Life. For 10 years the Equitable Life policyholders charges, free bus passes, free TV licences for the over-75s have fought for justice. For 10 years the last Government and winter fuel payments will remain exactly as budgeted dithered, delayed and denied them that justice. It is time for by the previous Government, as promised. I am also to right the wrong done to many thousands of people turning the temporary increase in the cold weather who did the right thing, saved for their future and tried payments introduced by the last Government into a not to depend on the state, and then were the innocent permanent increase. In my view, higher cold weather victims of a terrible failure of regulation. payments should be for life, not just for general elections. So let me make it clear: I accept the findings of the So, too, are the promises that we make on the national parliamentary ombudsman in full. I have read the advice health service. The NHS is an intrinsic part of the fabric of Sir John Chadwick and I thank him for it, but I do of our country. It is the embodiment of a fair society. not agree with the level of compensation that his analysis This coalition Government made a commitment to suggested. I agree with the ombudsman that the relative protect the NHS and increase health spending every loss suffered is the difference between what policyholders year. Today we honour that commitment in full. Total actually received from their policies and what they health spending will rise each year over and above would have received elsewhere. The parliamentary inflation. This year we are spending £104 billion on ombudsman herself recognised that a balance had to be health care, capital and current combined. By the end of struck between being fair to policyholders and being four years we will be spending £114 billion. We can fair to taxpayers, particularly when many budgets and afford that, in part because of the decisions on welfare benefits are being cut. But money that we pay out has to that I have just announced, and also because we have come from general public expenditure. I have decided made tough decisions in other parts of the Government that the fair amount to pay out in total is in the region budget. But to govern is to choose, and we have chosen of £1.5 billion, two thirds of which will be found in this the national health service. spending review period. Those who had with-profits That does not mean that we are letting the Department annuities were particularly hard hit, as they were retired of Health off the need to drive real reform and savings and were unable to move their savings elsewhere. As a from waste and inefficiency. Productivity in the health result, the Government will cover the cost of the total service fell steadily over the past 10 years, and that must relative loss suffered by those deserving people. The not continue. By 2014 we are aiming to save up to scheme will start making payments next year. £20 billion a year by demanding better value for money— Those measures, and our welfare reforms, mean that but the money we save will be reinvested in our nation’s it will always pay to work; the benefits savings will help health care. us protect key public services such as the national 961 Comprehensive Spending Review20 OCTOBER 2010 Comprehensive Spending Review 962 health service; and there is help for those who have Yesterday protesters scaled the Treasury, urging us to saved and lost everything. These are fair decisions, consistent proceed with their idea for a green investment bank. with the second principle of this spending review. That is the first time anyone has protested in favour of a The third and final principle centres on growth and bank—but we will go ahead. I have set aside in the promoting a private sector recovery. By restoring macro- spending review £1 billion of funding for that bank, but economic stability we have brought certainty to business, I hope that much more will be raised from the private and by cutting business taxes we are giving businesses sector and the proceeds of future Government asset the freedom to compete. Today’s review builds on those sales. steps, because even when money is short we should The aim of all those investments is for Britain to be a prioritise the areas of public spending that are most leader of the new green economy, creating jobs, saving likely to support economic growth. That is what we are energy costs and reducing carbon emissions. We will doing with the Department for Business, Innovation also introduce incentives to help families reduce their and Skills. Administration will be cut by £400 million, bills. We will introduce a funded renewable heat incentive, 24 quangos will go, lower-priority programmes such as and our green deal will encourage home energy efficiency Train to Gain will be abolished, and adult learners and at no up-front cost to homeowners, allowing us to employers will to have contribute more to further education. phase out the Warm Front programme. But that means that today I can announce the largest Overall, the total resource settlement for the Department ever financial investment in adult apprenticeships—an of Energy and Climate Change will fall by an average increase of more than 50% on the previous Government’s 5% a year, but there will be a large increase in capital provision, helping 75,000 new apprentices a year by the spending, partly to meet the unavoidable commitments end of this spending review period. that we have been left on nuclear decommissioning. We will maintain and invest in the post office network The Department for Environment, Food and Rural and protect community post offices. We will come forward Affairs will deliver resource savings of an average 8% a with our detailed response to Lord Browne’s report on year, but we will fund a major improvement in our flood higher education funding and student finance, including defences and coastal erosion management that will our plans to provide financial support to encourage provide better protection for 145,000 homes. those from the poorest households to stay in education. Our universities are the jewels in our economic crown, Britain’s arts, heritage and sport all have enormous and it is clear that if we want to keep our place near the value in their own right, but our rich and varied cultural top of the world league tables, we need to reform our life is also one of our country’s greatest economic system of funding and reject—as, to be fair, many assets. The resource budget for the Department for Opposition Members do—the unworkable idea of a Culture, Media and Sport will come down to £1.1 billion pure graduate tax. Clearly, better-off graduates will by 2014-15. Administrative costs are being reduced by have to pay more, which will enable us to reduce 41% and 19 quangos will be abolished or reformed. All considerably the contribution that general taxpayers that is being done so that we can limit four-year reductions have to make to the education of those who will probably to 15% in core programmes such as our national museums, end up earning much more than them. the front-line funding provided to our arts and Sport Overall, annual savings of 7.1% will be found from England’s whole sport plans. We will complete the new the budget of the Department for Business, Innovation world-class building extensions for the Tate Gallery and and Skills—the minimum it was asked to find. Within the British Museum. The Secretary of State will provide those savings, however, the Secretary of State and I have details of further projects shortly. I can also announce decided to protect the science budget. Britain is a world today that, in order for our nation’s culture and heritage leader in scientific research, and that is vital to our to remain available to all, we will continue to fund free future economic success. That is why I am proposing entry to museums and galleries. There is also ongoing that we do not cut the cash going to the science budget. provision of the £9.3 billion of public funding for a safe It will be protected at £4.6 billion a year. Building on and successful Olympic and Paralympic games in London the Wakeham review of science spending, we have found in 2012. that within the science budget, significant savings of We have approached the BBC to ensure that it, too, £324 million can be found through efficiency. If they are makes its contribution, as a publicly funded organisation, implemented, with this relatively protected settlement I to savings during the spending review. I am pleased to am confident that our country’s scientific output can confirm that this week we have struck a deal. The BBC increase over the next four years. will take from the Government the responsibility for We will also invest £220 million in the UK Centre for funding the BBC World Service and BBC Monitor, as Medical Research and Innovation at St Pancras, and well as part-funding S4C. That amounts to some fund the molecular biology lab in Cambridge, the Institute £340 million of savings a year for the Exchequer by for Animal Health in Pirbright and the diamond 2014-15. synchrotron in Oxford. To ensure that the cost of those new obligations is not Research and technological innovation will help us passed on to the licence fee payer, the BBC has agreed a with one of the greatest scientific challenges of our funding deal for the full duration of its charter review. times—climate change—and support new jobs in low- The licence fee will be frozen for the next six years. That carbon industries. So today, even in these straitened deal helps almost every family, and is equivalent to a times, we commit public capital funding of up to £1 billion 16% saving in the BBC budget over the period, similar to one of the world’s first commercial scale carbon to the savings in other major cultural institutions. capture and storage demonstration projects. We will The BBC has also agreed to reduce its online spend also invest more than £200 million in developing offshore and make no further encroachments into local media wind technology at port sites. markets in order to protect local newspapers and 963 Comprehensive Spending Review20 OCTOBER 2010 Comprehensive Spending Review 964

[Mr George Osborne] that our businesses need. Our regional growth fund will also help us do that. As promised, £1 billion has been independent local radio and TV.It will contribute to the found for the fund over the next two years—money £530 million that we will spend over the next four years designed to lever in private investment in areas of our in bringing superfast broadband to rural parts of our country where it has been too absent over the past country that the private sector will take longer to reach. decade. I can announce today that I am providing close Pilots will go ahead in the Highlands and Islands, to half a billion pounds extra in the third year for the North Yorkshire, Cumbria and Herefordshire. All that regional growth fund. will help encourage the growth of our creative industries Long-term investment in the capacity of our transport, as a key part of the new economy that we are seeking to our science and our green energy will all help move build. Britain from its decade-long dependence on one sector After our defence requirements are met, the Department of the economy in one part of the country, and the ruin for Transport will receive the largest capital settlement. to which that has led. Over the next four years we will invest more than The most important ingredient of a 21st-century £30 billion in transport projects—more than was invested economy is well-educated children, who believe in during the past four years. Of that, £14 billion will fund themselves and aspire to a better life, whatever their maintenance and investment in our railways. Direct bus background or disadvantages. In June, after the Budget, subsidies will be reduced, but statutory concessionary when the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and I turned fares will remain. our attention to how to allocate spending between The cap on regulated rail fares will rise to RPI plus Departments, we set ourselves a goal. We wanted to see 3% for the three years from 2012, but that will help this if it was possible, even when spending was being cut, to country afford new rolling stock as well as improve find more resources for our schools and for the early passenger conditions. The Secretary of State will set out years education of our children. I can tell the House how more of the transport money will be allocated next that we have succeeded. It has meant other Departments week. taking bigger cuts, but I believe strongly that that is the However, I want to tell the House today about some right choice for our country’s future. of the projects that will go ahead. For let us remember There will be a real increase in the money for schools, that, even after the tough spending settlements, the not just next year or the year after, as the previous country will still be spending more than £700 billion a Government once promised, but for each of the next year. In Yorkshire and Humber, capacity on the M62 four years. The schools budget will rise from £35 billion will be expanded, £90 million will be spent on improving to £39 billion. Even as pupil numbers greatly increase, rail platforms across various towns and cities, and we we will ensure that the cash funding per pupil does not will also improve line speeds across the Pennines. In the fall. We will also sweep away all the different ways in north-east £500 million will be spent on refurbishing which money is ring-fenced so that schools can decide the Tyne and Wear metro and the Tees valley bus how to spend their money as they think best. network. In the north-west we will invest in rail electrification We will also introduce a new £2.5 billion pupil premium, between Manchester, Liverpool, Preston and Blackpool, which supports the education of disadvantaged children and we will provide funding for a new suspension and will provide a real incentive for good schools to bridge over the Mersey at Runcorn. take pupils from poorer backgrounds. That pupil premium Rail and roads in Scotland are devolved to the Scottish is at the heart of the coalition agreement, and at the Executive, and roads in Wales are also devolved, but I heart of our commitment to reform, fairness and economic can tell the House that major rail investments around growth. Cardiff, Barry and Newport will go ahead. Parents, teachers and community groups will be In the east midlands the M1 and the A46 will be supported if they wish to establish free schools. We will improved. In the west midlands we will extend the fund an increase in places for 16 to 19-year-olds, and Midland metro and completely redevelop Birmingham raise the participation age to 18 by the end of the New Street station. In the south-west we will fund Parliament. That enables us to replace education improvements on the M5 and the M4, and the new maintenance allowances with more targeted support. transport scheme for Weymouth. In the east of England, We will also provide support for the early years of colleagues will be delighted to know, the A11 to Norwich our children. The increased entitlement to 15 hours a will be upgraded. Around London, we will widen the week free education for all three and four-year-olds that M25 between 10 different junctions and complete was introduced under this Government will continue. improvements to the A3 at Hindhead. Sure Start services will be protected in cash terms and In London, on top of the Olympics, a major investment the programme will be focused on its original purpose. in our capital city’s transport infrastructure will take We will help them further by introducing for the very place. Crossrail will go ahead and key tube lines will be first time 15 free hours of early education and care for upgraded for the 21st century. all disadvantaged two-year-olds, so that those children That is nothing like the complete list, because next have a chance in life and are ready like the rest of their week, we will set out more details. So, yes, we are saving classmates for school. money and putting the state on a more sustainable Overall, the Department for Education will be required footing, but even then, we will spend tens of billions of to find resource savings of only 1% a year. Central pounds on Britain’s future infrastructure. Next week administration will be cut by a third and five quangos the Secretary of State will also set out our national will go. The capital budget will, as we know, have to infrastructure plan, so that private money is put to bear its share of the reductions, but as the House work in building for this country the economic infrastructure knows, we have had to phase out the hopelessly inefficient 965 Comprehensive Spending Review20 OCTOBER 2010 Comprehensive Spending Review 966 and over-committed Building Schools for the Future on the richest. We have seen today hon. Members programme. However, £15.8 billion will be spent to cheering the deepest cuts to public spending in living maintain the school estate and to rebuild and refurbish memory. For some Government Members, that is their 600 schools. I repeat: the resource money for schools—the ideological objective—[Interruption.] Not all of them, money that goes into the classroom—on the broadest but for many, that is what they came into politics definition, including all the main grants, will go up in for—[Interruption.] real terms every year. That is a real investment in the future of our children and in the future growth of our Mr Speaker: Order. Ms Bray, you are getting quite economy too. over-excited. You must calm yourself—and remain calm. Let me conclude. The decisions we have taken today It is in your interest and the House’s interest. bring sanity to our public finances and stability to our economy. We have dealt decisively with the largest budget Alan Johnson: Today is the day that abstract figures deficit this House of Commons has ever had to face and spreadsheets turn into people’s futures, people’s outside of wartime. We have had to make choices—choices jobs, people’s pensions, people’s services and their prospects about the things we support—and today I have announced for the future, and the day when the statistics that were real increases in the NHS budget and the resources of nestling comfortably in the lap of the Chief Secretary schools, as well as new investment in the infrastructure yesterday actually become the uncomfortable truth for of our economy. I have announced real reductions in many people and families throughout this country. waste and reforms to welfare and although that will We hear the chant on every occasion, but Government reshape public services to meet the challenges of this Members are deficit deceivers. They have peddled a time, I think it is the right choice. whole series of myths to the British public. The most I have one final observation. During the process of incredible myth of all is that the biggest global economic this spending review, I have received many submissions, crisis since the great depression is the fault of the including one from the Labour party. It said that the previous Government—[Interruption.] You see? The average cut for unprotected Departments should be set strings are pulled and away they go. at 20% over the coming four years, rather than the The Chancellor said that the Government have brought 25% that I anticipated in my June Budget. I have Britain back from the brink of bankruptcy. Perhaps he examined that proposal carefully and consulted the will confirm three facts. Fact No. 1: when the global published documents of my predecessor, the right hon. crisis hit, the UK had the second-lowest debt of any G7 Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), and country. Fact No. 2: the previous Government inherited because of our tough but fair decisions to reform welfare a debt interest level of 10p in every £1 of tax received, and the savings that we have made on debt interest, I am and even after a world recession, we bequeathed a pleased to tell the House that that has been possible. figure that was 15% lower. Fact No. 3: the interest rates The average savings in departmental budgets will be that the UK pays on its debt have been falling since the lower than the previous Government implied in their beginning of the year. Perhaps the Chancellor, in the March Budget. Instead of cuts of 20%, there will be interests of accuracy, can confirm those statistics. cuts of 19% over the four years, so I thank the Opposition When the last comprehensive spending review took for their support and input and look forward to their place in 2007, the Chancellor was the shadow Chancellor. votes. Was he calling for reduced public spending? Read the This coalition Government faced the worst economic Hansard. Was he calling for regulation of the banking inheritance in modern history. The debts we were left industry? I have two things to say about 2007. I have with threatened every job and public service in the read his contribution to the debate. First, instead of country, but we have put the national interest first. We arguing for reduced public spending, he argued that we have made the tough choices. We have protected health were spending too little. He complained that we were and schools and investment in growth, and we have slowing the growth in health and education expenditure. reformed welfare and cut waste. We have made sure that Indeed, the Conservative party supported every penny we are all in this together, and we have taken our of our spending plans until well after the collapse of country back from the brink of bankruptcy. A stronger Lehman Brothers in America, which set off the disastrous Britain starts here, and I commend this statement to the chain reaction that caused the global recession. House. [Interruption.] In 2007, far from calling for regulation of the banks, Mr Speaker: Order. I call Alan Johnson. the Conservatives were calling for deregulation of the banks. The right hon. Member for Wokingham Alan Johnson (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Mr Redwood) produced a report on behalf of the then (Lab): Mr Speaker—[Interruption.] Leader of the Opposition who had called for greater regulation of the banking industry. We need to get the Mr Speaker: Order. The House needs to calm down. facts right. It is getting a little over-excited and there is a long way The Chancellor described his emergency Budget in to go. June as being unavoidable and fair. We know that it was unfair, because the IFS produced the statistics with Alan Johnson: Mr Speaker, we remember well the devastating and forensic accuracy a few hours later, and cheers at the end of the emergency Budget in June, we also know that it was avoidable. The deficit has to be when the Chancellor finished on a peroration about his paid down—[HON.MEMBERS: “Ah!”] Here they go again. Budget being progressive and fair. It took the Institute The Chief Whip’s spreadsheet tells them when to stand for Fiscal Studies only 48 hours to show that it was up and what to say. Where is he? He does not need to totally unfair, and that the burden of the emergency move to have influence on his Back Benchers. So we do Budget fell two and half times more on the poorest than need to bring the deficit down. 967 Comprehensive Spending Review20 OCTOBER 2010 Comprehensive Spending Review 968

[Alan Johnson] heard what the Chancellor said about the report from Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary, but the Today’s reckless gamble with people’s livelihoods runs Home Office is not a protected Department. As it deals the risk of stifling the fragile recovery. The ridiculous with counter-terrorism and policing, the public will be analogy with credit card debts insults the intelligence of worried that they will lose more police on the streets. the British public. If countries around the world had Spending has to be reduced—[Interruption.] Yes, not run up debts—that is what the fiscal deficit is, by the spending has to be reduced, but the front-line services way—to sustain their economies, people would have on which people rely must be protected. We support lost not their credit cards, but lost their jobs, lost their moves to ring-fence the health budget—[HON.MEMBERS: houses and lost their savings. The Liberal Democrats “Ah!”] The point about the health service is not that its know that, and they argued that when seeking the budgets will be protected, it is the taking of £2 billion to support of the electorate. The Deputy Prime Minister £3 billion out of those budgets to pay for a top-down argued that, and then he discovered Greece. In the structural reorganisation that the Conservatives told period between the ballot box closing and his ministerial the public in their manifesto would not happen. This is car door opening, the Deputy Prime Minister discovered the top-down reorganisation to end all top-down a different approach. reorganisations, and we are already seeing the loss of Like us, the Liberal Democrats—every single one of jobs in the NHS as a result. them—were elected to this House on a platform that On education, the Chancellor mentioned that the said, in the context of reducing the deficit, that speed pupil premium would be funded. There are stories kills. The Chancellor repeats a long list of those who already about teachers and teaching assistants losing support his swift cuts; he mentions it all the time. their jobs as a result of today’s announcement. We will Curiously, he failed to mention the other countries in have to look at the statistics carefully, including the the United Kingdom—Scotland, Wales and Northern small print, before we can see what is happening on Ireland—which do not support these measures. Perhaps education. The Chancellor said that they will keep a that is why he calls himself a one-nation Tory. Here is version of education maintenance allowance. That is another supportive quotation that he missed out, and good, because it has been the biggest single contributor he can take this down and use it in future briefings: to lifting the number of children from poorer homes “The measures we have taken have been commended by who stay in education—and it was introduced by the international bodies such as the European Central Bank, the Labour Government. He told us that it will be introduced European Commission, the IMF and the OECD. They have also in some form, but he did not say how. Nor did he say won the approval of the international markets.” what effect the removal of ring fences will have on Sure That was the Irish Minister of Finance last December, Start, which is crucially important to ensuring that we when he told the Irish Parliament that his austerity plan have a more progressive society. meant that they had turned the corner. Four months On the NHS, we believe that the real-terms increase later, they slid back into recession. will be more than swallowed by the cost of the The concerns of those watching this announcement reorganisation. It would be good if the Chancellor today went beyond the misrepresentation of figures and could confirm that the baseline for the NHS will exactly the clever Punch and Judy stuff in which we all engage— reflect its actual budget this year. It seems to us from the including myself at times. They will be interested in statistics that there may be some smoke and mirrors. whether they will stay in work, whether they will stay in Without growth, the job of getting the deficit down their homes and whether they will stay safe on the becomes impossible. A rising dole queue means a bigger streets. We are told that the expected job losses from welfare bill and less tax coming in—a cost of at least this spending review—and the Chancellor confirmed half a billion pounds for every 100,000 people thrown it—will be some 490,000. PricewaterhouseCoopers reported out of work by the Government’s approach. To get the last week that 1 million jobs were at stake because the deficit down, the starting point must be jobs, jobs, jobs. impact on the private sector is just as severe. Is it not the That remains the core of the difference between us and case that at the same time as the Government are the Government. We were told that the Ministry of throwing people out of work, they are reducing the Justice will see 14,000 jobs cut. Does the Chancellor support to help people return to the workplace? agree with the Department’s assessment that the vast I applaud the ideas and the efforts of the Secretary of majority of those—11,000—will be from the front line? State for Work and Pensions to do what we were seeking Can he confirm that £230 million of taxpayers’ funds to do and make work pay—[Interruption.] He often have been earmarked for redundancy costs in that gives credit to what we did when we were in government. Department alone? What is the total scale of redundancies The fact is, however, that today’s proposals will make it expected across the public sector? What will the total harder for people to return to work because of the redundancy bill be? Thanks to the Chief Secretary’s changes to working tax credit; because of the changes gaffe yesterday, we know that the Treasury has provided to support for working parents; and because of the the Chancellor with estimates: he should share them huge increase in fares for those who have to travel to get with the House. Can the Chancellor confirm that the the jobs. The Secretary of State has had his job made poorest will still bear a greater burden than the richest, harder by today’s announcement. with the middle squeezed even further, and that women On housing, the Chancellor has announced the retreat will shoulder three quarters of the cuts? Does he still of central Government from any role in building new claim that these measures are progressive and fair? affordable homes. Can he tell the House how many jobs There is an alternative approach. The Chancellor will be lost in the construction sector as a result of his finished by suggesting that their cuts were the same as decision to all but end capital funding for house building? ours—[HON.MEMBERS: “Less.”] Less than ours? That is Crime has fallen dramatically in the last 13 years. I even more utter and complete nonsense, for two reasons. 969 Comprehensive Spending Review20 OCTOBER 2010 Comprehensive Spending Review 970

First, the Conservatives calculated the 20% figure by alternative to the spending review.” I then got this some very dodgy formulae that stretched the limit of message in the Chamber that said that at eight minutes credibility for the protected Departments. Secondly, the past 1 this afternoon, when the shadow Chancellor was Chancellor has not caught up with the fact that we have actually in the Chamber, he sent an e-mail to members listed a series of measures with which we agree—for of the public saying: instance, the increase in capital gains tax and the changes “I’m going to be honest with you, being in opposition does to welfare. The Chancellor has not caught up with the mean” statements that we have made about the welfare bill. We will look at the further measures that the Chancellor we have to set out “a clear alternative”, and he then has announced today, but if we take the statements that said, “Please share your thoughts with us”. Labour we have made into account, we came into this debate Members were in government until six months ago. with departmental cuts half the level of those that the They sat round the Cabinet table as the deficit increased. Government are proposing. Six months later, they have not put forward a single idea for reducing the budget deficit. It is absolutely pathetic. This spending review is not about economic necessity; it is about political choices. The Chancellor argues that Despite the fact that the right hon. Gentleman says Labour would have done nothing about the deficit; he that he is relatively new to the subject, he dismisses, with goes on to say that his cuts are no worse than ours. He a sweep of the hand, the verdict of the IMF, the OECD, cannot have it both ways. He cannot be right in both the CBI, the chambers of commerce, the European arguments, although he does manage to be wrong on Commission and everyone else who has looked at the both counts. The difference between us is that the British economy. I do not know whether he saw the Government are removing almost twice as much from letter from 35 leading employers in this country, but Department budgets, while we were looking for a much they included people such as the leaders of Asda and more gradual, much slower reduction, which would not Microsoft—I know that the business community of this stifle the very low levels of growth in our economy. It is country is totally irrelevant to Labour now—and the our firm belief that the rush to cut the deficit endangers person who founded the Carphone Warehouse, who I the recovery and reduces the prospects for employment think used to be a supporter of the Labour party. All in the short term and for prosperity in the longer term. those people wrote to the national newspapers saying: We believe that we can and should sustain a more “Addressing the debt problem in a decisive way will improve gradual reduction, securing growth. I do not believe business and consumer confidence.” that the Chancellor or the Prime Minister sufficiently If the right hon. Gentleman wants to ignore all those understands the worries and concerns of families up people, what about Tony Blair? There is total silence on and down this country. Those worries will have multiplied the Labour Benches, for the man who won Labour three considerably as a result of the Chancellor’s statement general elections. I think that the right hon. Gentleman today. was in the Cabinet when Tony Blair was Prime Minister, and he has said: Mr Osborne: He’s a nice guy, but he’s in the wrong “The danger now is this: if governments don’t tackle deficits, job. The truth is this: frankly, either member of the the bill is footed by taxpayers, who fear that big deficits now mean Balls family would have done a lot better than that, and big taxes in the future, the prospect of which reduces confidence, they might even have asked me a question or two, but let investment and purchasing power. This then increases the risk of me try to respond to what he said. prolonged slump”. The right hon. Gentleman keeps talking about a plan The right hon. Gentleman used to be a Blairite— B, but he has not even got a plan A. There was a [Interruption.] Well, at least the right hon. Member for complete denial of the fact that this country has the Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls) has been fighting Tony largest budget deficit in the G20. He made no Blair all his career and says he is wrong, but the shadow acknowledgement of the fact that the credit rating Chancellor used to be a supporter. agencies were looking at this country when he was in The right hon. Gentleman has dismissed all the leading the Cabinet and no acknowledgement of the fact that businesses of Britain, all the international organisations our market interest rates were the same as Spain rather and Tony Blair, but let me answer a couple of his than others. Frankly, he spent half his statement defending specific questions—[Interruption.] Well, to be fair, in the economic policy of the last Labour Prime Minister— the space of about 10 minutes he asked three, so I will who perhaps could have turned up to hear it—but that answer them. First, he asked about police numbers. Of is totally irrelevant to the questions put before the course this is a challenge for the Home Office, but we House today and the proposals that we have set out. believe that with the advice from the inspectorate of The right hon. Gentleman kept saying, “We want to constabulary and Tom Winsor’s report, there will be no reduce the deficit.” As far as I could tell, he did not reduction in the availability and visibility of policing. agree with a single measure that I set out. He did not However, the right hon. Gentleman was asked during propose a single saving. He is a deficit denier, and the the election—[Interruption.] He was the Home Secretary. truth is this. We have been told for a whole year that we [Interruption.] The new Leader of the Opposition asks— would get Labour’s deficit reduction plan. Before the [Interruption.] This is what the man who was Home election, let us remember, we were told in the debates, Secretary before the election said in the election, when “Don’t worry, it’ll come after the election.” During the he was asked a question on the “Daily Politics” show: leadership contest, we were told that it would come “Can you guarantee if you form...the next government that after the leadership contest. After the leadership contest, police numbers won’t fall? we were told that it would come before the spending review, and then this morning, a member of the shadow Johnson: No”. Cabinet said on the radio, “We are not going to do an So what is the basis on which he makes his argument? 971 Comprehensive Spending Review20 OCTOBER 2010 Comprehensive Spending Review 972

[Mr George Osborne] Finally, on the distributional impact, we have published distributional analyses in the book that I have published The right hon. Gentleman talks about the national today—my hon. Friend will know that we are the first health service, and he said that he agreed with our Government to attempt to do this—and I will very decision to ring-fence it. Presumably this is the same much welcome the Treasury Committee’s inquiry on the shadow Chancellor who said recently, “There is no spending review, which I know he will conduct. We have logic, sense or rationality to this policy”. He has done a used the methodology that is used in many other countries complete U-turn. to try to allocate the benefit in kind of public expenditure, The right hon. Gentleman says that he rejects the as well as the direct income effect of some of the benefit minus 20% definition of the Labour cuts. At the same changes. We believe that that shows this is broadly time, he began his statement by praising the Institute progressive, in that the top quintile pays the most and it for Fiscal Studies, but that number comes from the IFS. is broadly flat across the other quintiles. The same is He suggests that I have not paid attention to the true of some of the annually managed expenditure announcements that he has been making this week. decisions as well, on which we have also published Well, it is true that I have been quite busy, but I have tables. paid attention to what he has said. I understand that I very much welcome the Treasury Select Committee’s not many people got a chance to question him about his inquiry and its work on this matter. As I have said, this policies, but he said that taxes needed to be increased. is the first time the British Treasury has attempted to do However, when he was asked which taxes, he said that this, and we very much welcome the Committee’s input. he was open-minded about it. That is a polite way of saying he hasn’t got a clue. Several hon. Members rose— The right hon. Gentleman was once the great force of modernisation in the Labour party, and he has now Mr Speaker: Order. A very large number of right ended up reading out the policies dreamed up by the hon. and hon. Members are seeking to catch my eye, new Leader of the Opposition. He said in that press and I would like to accommodate as many of them as conference earlier this week that being in opposition possible. I therefore issue my usual exhortation to brevity was not about “pretending to be in government.” Now with particular force. Single supplementary questions, we know how right he was. please, and economical replies from the Chancellor of Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): This is undoubtedly the Exchequer. one of the most radical and—I think most people in all parts of the House would agree—necessary shake-ups Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) of the public sector, whatever the scale of shake-up (Lab): In cutting the deficit, why did the Chancellor people wanted. Personally, I particularly welcome the ignore the economic growth dividend, which could yield cull of quangos, the re-examination of the private finance at least £60 billion in extra Government tax revenues initiative, the efficiency drive in Whitehall, and the over the next five years? Why did he not tax at all the announcements on Equitable Life and the BBC. The 1% super-rich, whose wealth has quadrupled over the Select Committee on Treasury will be looking in far past decade? And why did he not introduce a major greater detail than in the past at the Treasury’s decisions, public sector, as well as private sector, jobs and growth and particularly at the way that it has prioritised between programme, which could most effectively cut benefit Departments and at the ring-fencing. We will also examine payments and increase tax revenues? them for fairness. The Chancellor’s analysis in the June Budget presented that Budget as progressive. I would be Mr Osborne: The first thing I would say to the right grateful if he could confirm that this CSR is also hon. Gentleman is that we believe strongly, as do the progressive. I would also be grateful if he could say major employers in this country and the people something about his plans to denationalise the banks. internationally who look at this economy, that dealing Mr Osborne: First, let me thank my hon. Friend for with the deficit is essential for sustainable growth. That the welcome that he gave—to repeat what I said —to is what this is all about: putting the British economy what I implied about PFI, the contribution that the and our public finances on a sustainable footing so that BBC will make and the very difficult choice that we all we can create jobs in the future and so that the economy have to make in this Parliament about what is a fair can grow. settlement on Equitable Life. In particular, helping the The right hon. Gentleman talked about taxes on the trapped annuitants is an absolute priority and it is a top 1%. We introduced an increase in capital gains tax, good thing and, as I said, we found three times as much and the truth is that not everyone in my party was money as John Chadwick recommended. particularly happy about it, but Labour had 13 years My hon. Friend raised two particular points. First, he and all those Budgets in which to do that. The shadow mentioned ring fences, and although we call them ring Chancellor now rather lamely says that Labour supports fences, in the end they are about priorities. We have the capital gains tax increase, but I would love to know, made a choice. As a coalition Government, we have when the Cabinet minutes are published in 20 or 30 years’ chosen certain things that we are going to cut—obviously time, whether he ever raised this matter in Cabinet. We we have made some difficult decisions on welfare—but took a decision to increase capital gains tax to the we have also chosen to spend more money on health higher rate, and last week I published proposals for care and the resources going into schools. Those are increasing tax on the very highest pension contributions. choices, and in the end that is what politics in a democratic That is a £4 billion tax; it was not an easy thing to do, country is about. We have made those choices, so I but we have done it. We have also accepted and lived would not regard them particularly as ring fences, more with the previous Government’s decision to increase tax as democratic choices. to 50%—of course, they introduced that in the last 973 Comprehensive Spending Review20 OCTOBER 2010 Comprehensive Spending Review 974 month they were in office. Again, that was not an easy Mr Osborne: The housing benefit budget has been decision. I am not instinctively in favour of higher rising at a very rapid pace and, frankly, anyone doing marginal tax rates, but it is necessary at a time like this. I my job would have to address that bill. We have sought am determined that all parts of the income distribution to do that in a way that is fair and that balances the should make a contribution, but that the people at the needs of the taxpayer with the needs of those in receipt top of the income distribution should make the most. of housing benefit. There has been a lot of speculation Finally, on the disposal of the banks, at the moment about social tenants, but we are not changing the social we are not in a position to do that, but of course we tenancy agreements of people in existing social tenancies— monitor the situation the whole time and, as and when [HON.MEMBERS: “Yes you are!”] That is what we are not we can dispose of them, we will. I am very keen to doing. We are saying that for new tenants we will have create a more competitive banking sector at the end of to have something more like the market rent. I have to this process, which is one of the reasons why we set up say that that was the policy of the previous Government— the independent commission. Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab) Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con): Areas indicated dissent. such as Staffordshire Moorlands were neglected by the previous Government. Will the Chancellor tell the House Mr Osborne: The hon. Gentleman shakes his head, how areas that have been let down by policies such as but it was the stated policy of the previous Government regionalisation will be helped by the measures announced to increase social rents over time to approach the level by this Government? of market rents—[Interruption.] That was the policy of the previous Government. As I have said, we have tried Mr Osborne: We have much more focused local area to do this in a way that protects existing social tenants. partnerships that are going to help areas such as It will help to build more social housing, and in the end Staffordshire Moorlands, which I suspect were rather the Opposition have to ask themselves why they failed neglected by the regional development agency. I assume so miserably on building social housing. that such areas were not where the action was in the west midlands, and that the emphasis would have been Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): The Chancellor on the big metropolitan centres. Her town of Leek and has announced 500,000 job losses and cuts of £81 billion— the surrounding countryside would, I suspect, have that is just the cuts, not the tax increases—while giving been ignored by the RDA. One of the advantages of no detail of how that will be achieved. This will cause local enterprise partnerships—and, indeed, the regional huge anxiety among those in the public sector and those growth fund—is that we can focus on particular areas who depend on their services, and in the private sector where we want to get more private sector involvement firms that are dependent on public sector contracts. I and create jobs. believe that this is reckless: it cuts too fast and too deep. I have one question today: how can the Chancellor Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): I witnessed possibly imagine that, after his statement, a real-terms, the misery and devastation that occurred in my black direct cut to the Scottish block of around £4 billion can country constituency and elsewhere during the Tory do anything other than weaken the ability of Scotland years, and all the indications that the Chancellor has to recover in these difficult economic times? given today are that there will be a repeat of that, and that, despite what he has said, the people who will suffer Mr Osborne: First, we have preserved the Barnett the most will be those on the lowest incomes. This will funding arrangements. Secondly, the decisions that we be a day of tragedy for the British people. have taken on the national health service and schools budgets in England will help the funding settlement for Mr Osborne: The hon. Gentleman is not known for Scotland. What we are seeking to do, north and south overstatement, but I would say to him that we inherited of the border, is to put the United Kingdom’s economy a situation of rising unemployment, the biggest fall in on a strong and sustainable footing so that there can be output in a generation, the biggest banking crisis—thanks growth in Scotland and in the rest of the country. My to the way in which the previous Government had final observation is that people are pretty clear, in the regulated the banks—and a huge budget deficit. In the House and in Scotland, that if Scotland had been next hour—or however long you allow for questions, independent over the past three years, given the scale of Mr Speaker—every single Labour Member who gets up the banking crisis, it would now look like Iceland. should propose an alternative plan. It is very difficult to make choices, but they can attack this plan only if they Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): My constituents will have an alternative. welcome this Robin Hood public spending statement, particularly the resources that are going into cold weather Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): I welcome the payments, apprenticeships and help for young children. Government’s commitment to end child poverty—during Does the Chancellor agree that people would rather this Parliament, we hope—which Labour failed miserably have lower taxes and more spending on public services to do, but may I draw the Chancellor’s attention to what than spend £120 million a day paying off the debt? the coalition programme says about rented housing? Hundreds of thousands of families will be adversely Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend is right. This country is affected by the removal or cutting of housing benefit. spending £120 million a day on debt interest. So all the Will he confirm that local authorities have a statutory pet projects that Labour has suddenly discovered— duty to house homeless families, and that the cost of [Interruption.] Well, the truth is that the previous Labour bed-and-breakfast accommodation is considerably greater Government inherited a golden economic legacy from than that of housing benefit? the Conservatives, but we have been left the worst 975 Comprehensive Spending Review20 OCTOBER 2010 Comprehensive Spending Review 976

[Mr George Osborne] grave gamble with the security and safety of the British public and will eat away at the very successful fight economic inheritance that any peacetime Government against crime? in this country have ever faced. Unfortunately, we have to deal with it, but we are doing that as two parties Mr Osborne: Obviously, I do not agree with right working together to clean up the mess that one party hon. Gentleman. All Government Departments have created. The goal that I have in sight is a more prosperous, had to make savings. Is he really telling me that if his sustainable economy and a public finance situation that party had been re-elected and he had been in the is deliverable and affordable for the people of Harlow. Cabinet, the Ministry of Justice would somehow have been protected from any reductions? Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab): The Chancellor has told us that we can expect 490,000 Mr Straw: Not on this scale, George. You know that. public sector jobs to go in the next five years, while Mr Osborne: Let me explain a couple of things to the PricewaterhouseCoopers has made an expert estimate right hon. Gentleman. First, as a member of the Cabinet, that another half a million private sector jobs will go. he fought the general election on protecting part of the How does putting out of work 1 million people, who health service, not the whole of it, if I remember correctly. will no longer pay tax and will add to the jobseeker’s He talked about two years of real increases in school allowance and housing benefit budgets, cut the deficit funding, but we are going with four. I think he also and add to growth? made a promise on police numbers, but the then Home Mr Osborne: I shall make a couple of observations. Secretary ditched the promise in the middle of the First, the independent Office for Budget Responsibility—the general election. The Ministry of Justice has to make a hon. Lady is, after all, quoting its forecast, so I presume contribution. The right hon. Gentleman says, “Not on that she would accept its whole forecast—has predicted this scale”, but over the next four years, the actual that unemployment will fall and that more private sector reduction in non-protected Departments would have jobs will be created. Secondly, she must accept—even been greater under his Government than under ours the deficit deniers in the Labour party must accept it, because of the decisions we have taken on welfare. The and they admitted it during the general election—that Institute for Fiscal Studies calculated a figure of minus there would have been a reduction in the public sector 20%,; it is minus 19% in our figures. The Ministry of head count if there had been a Labour Government. I Justice is, of course, part of one of those non-protected do not know whether the hon. Lady agrees with that—she areas. can shake her head, nod or whatever—but that is the James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): truth. We have had to make some decisions, but there is I welcome the Chancellor’s statement, and I know that a high turnover in the public sector anyway, so we hope many hard-working people in my constituency will that much of this can be accommodated by posts not support the welfare reforms he has announced. Does being filled. There will be redundancies—I think the my right hon. Friend agree that the welfare reform Labour party has accepted that there would have been proposals made today are vital because the decisions redundancies under its plan—but we are going to do were ducked by the previous Government? everything we can to deal with that situation and help those people to find work. In the end, however, the Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. current size of the budget deficit means that we have to These decisions are absolutely vital to provide economic deal with this situation, or many, many more jobs stability and to make sure that Britain does not go back would be at risk. Let us remember that this Government to the brink of bankruptcy. What I would say to my came into office with unemployment rising, and that is hon. Friend and his constituents, many of whom work what we have had to deal with. extremely hard and for long hours to pay their taxes, is that it is not acceptable for those taxes to go into the Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): The shadow debt interest that we pay to foreign creditors when we Chancellor, although very good at the jokes, demonstrated really want the money spent here at home. That is what in his response his confusion about the difference between this is all about—trying to reduce our debt bills and fiscal and structural deficit. I wondered whether the bring some economic stability by reforming a welfare Chancellor could help by explaining that difference to state that, frankly, grew out of control. We have taken him. the decisions today. If people have alternatives, they can put them on the table. Mr Speaker: Order. I do not think that we will go with that. With respect, Members must get into the Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): With habit of asking questions about the policy of the regard to the new rents at 80% of market rent levels for Government, not about advice to shadow Ministers. social housing tenants, when a tenant is out of work Let us get that straight. will the rent be covered totally by housing benefit? In that case, is there no new money to pay for social Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): The Chancellor of housing? When a tenant is in work or seeking it, will not the Exchequer failed to answer the question put by my these new higher rents provide a disincentive to going right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull out to work? Will the rents apply to existing tenants West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) about the extraordinary who seek to move home, which would be a disincentive 11,000 reduction in the number of front-line probation to mobility? and prison staff in the Ministry of Justice. Will the Chancellor confirm that this runs completely counter to Mr Osborne: We have had to take some difficult what the Prime Minister said on 2 May about protecting decisions on housing benefit, but I think they are fair front-line services, and that, even worse, it can only be a and we have sought to protect the most vulnerable. Of 977 Comprehensive Spending Review20 OCTOBER 2010 Comprehensive Spending Review 978 course, the universal credit we are introducing means Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. that it will always pay to work—that is the basic principle and housing benefit is part of it. The Secretary of State Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): Given that for Communities and Local Government will set out Northern Ireland has a great reliance on the public the reforms in detail. The principles are set out in the sector, which means that these cuts will hit it pretty document, which the hon. Gentleman can look at. As I hard, when do the Government intend to bring forward said, existing social tenants will be protected through their promised proposals to look at rebalancing the their rent agreements. economy in Northern Ireland, along with the Northern Ireland Executive? Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD): The Government have rightly taken decisions to Mr Osborne: Of course there are difficult decisions deal with the deficit left by the international recession, today, but because of the decisions we have taken on the the banks and the outgoing Labour Government. Can English health service and the English education system, the Chancellor confirm that the policy behind the statement Northern Ireland gets a relatively favourable settlement is not just that those with the broadest shoulders should in comparison with some other parts of the country. We carry the biggest burden, but that as well as children, have also made the decision today on the Presbyterian pensioners and households on the lowest incomes will Mutual Society and we want to work with the devolved be protected most, which will be supported by the Administration to ensure that people who have had no assessment of the impact of the Budget and the statement certainty for a long time can now get it and get some he has made and presented today? money for the savings they have lost. I promise the hon. Lady that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State Mr Osborne: The poorest suffer when a country loses for Northern Ireland regularly raises with me issues control of its public finances. That, indeed, was the about growth and investment in Northern Ireland. As I assessment of the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and am sure the hon. Lady knows, he has lots of ideas for Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), and it was one of the few stimulating economic activity, and I believe he is going things he said that I agreed with. Constituents on the to bring forward his proposals later this year. We will all lowest incomes benefit from a Government trying to be able to participate in the debate about them at that deal with this economic problem. The structural deficit— time. someone asked me about it—is the bit that does not go away when the economy grows. Labour Members seem Ms Louise Bagshawe (Corby) (Con): Does my right to be suggesting that in four years’ time, a Chancellor of hon. Friend share my joy at the shadow Chancellor’s the Exchequer will stand up to announce the next admission that the deficit must be reduced, and my four-year programme of cuts, which would not do this mystification that he is apparently so bereft of ideas country much good. that today he sent an e-mail asking for “Answers on a postcard, please”? Specifically on pensioners, we have of course taken the big decision to link the basic state pension to Mr Speaker: Order. I must ask for a very brief reply. I earnings, and we have protected the pension credit. Yes, hope that the message will be received. there have been some difficult decisions on welfare, but I have sought to protect the most vulnerable, and I believe that our overall welfare reforms will help to Mr Osborne: I agree with my hon. Friend. provide incentives to many in our country who do not currently have them to seek employment. Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab): Cutting funds for local councils by 28.4% over four years will decimate services in Leicester West, and allowing councils to Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): borrow against business rates will further widen inequalities, It is very disturbing that this statement simply does not as areas with more private businesses can borrow more disclose the extent of the cuts being made to transport, to improve services. Can the Chancellor explain to me, although it is clear that there will be a massive increase and to my constituents, how that is fair? in both train and bus fares. How can that help economic recovery, including people’s ability to get to work? Mr Osborne: I am sorry that the hon. Lady is opposed to more freedom for local government—[Interruption.] Mr Osborne: We are spending more on transport Well, that is what my increment financing proposal projects over the next four years than was spent during means. Along with our other decisions about grants, it the last four years. I have made every effort to prioritise means more freedom for local government. As I have transport spending, which has led to other questions said, this is a challenging settlement for local government. coming down the line. Given that the hon. Lady is a [Interruption.] Let me repeat that the Labour party Liverpool MP, I thought she might at least welcome the created the budget deficit, and if the Labour party does Mersey Gateway project. I am an MP for the north-west, not have a plan, it is in no position to criticise those who as is the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), are trying to sort out this mess. and we have been talking about the Mersey Gateway project for an awful long time. It is going ahead. Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Do not an increase in the number of adult apprenticeships, commitment to Richard Harrington (Watford) (Con): Will my right the digital economy through the rolling out of universal hon. Friend confirm to me and my constituents that the super-fast broadband, investment in the green investment purpose of today’s announcement is to take public bank, protection for the science budget and the expenditure back to 2008 levels, not 1888 levels as some encouragement of green-collar jobs demonstrate the Opposition Members have implied? coalition Government’s belief, with every fibre of our 979 Comprehensive Spending Review20 OCTOBER 2010 Comprehensive Spending Review 980

[Tony Baldry] How does the fact that capital expenditure will fall by 40% over the next four years in an already fragile being, that the only way forward for the country is a Northern Ireland economy sit with the promise from private sector-led recovery which will generate real wealth the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland only last and real, new jobs for the 21st century? week that the investment programme would be protected? What assessment has the Chancellor made of the impact Mr Osborne: Of course I agree with my hon. Friend. on his desire, and that of the Northern Ireland Executive, We made every effort to protect the science budget—that to rebalance the Northern Ireland economy? was one of the things that we strained to achieve—and if the efficiency proposals in the Wakeham report are Mr Osborne: Let me say first that the biggest gamble implemented, that will lead to a real increase in scientific that the country could have taken in the current world output. We have also been able to confirm the synchrotron environment would have been not to set out a credible project in Oxfordshire. Although Oxfordshire is extremely plan to reduce the budget deficit. If we had not set out well-represented in the Cabinet, it is unfortunately not that plan and made our decisions, we really would have one of the counties that will benefit from a super-fast been in the firing line. Secondly, the capital spending broadband pilot, but I hope that if the pilots are successful cuts that I have—unfortunately—announced today are we will be able to roll them out in other rural parts of less than those proposed in the Labour Government’s England, including the Banbury constituency. plan, because of the increase in the capital envelope that I announced. That does make them particularly Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): According easy, but I have sought to prioritise infrastructure to the independent organisation New Philanthropy Capital, investments, and if there are good projects in Northern the massive cuts of nearly 30% in local councils’ budgets Ireland we can work on them with the devolved over the next four years will mean cuts of between Administration. This is, of course, an area of devolved £3.2 billion and £5.1 billion in charitable and voluntary responsibility. bodies which provide essential services for many of the Finally, let me say that one of the absolute priorities most vulnerable people in our communities. What action of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for will the Chancellor take to ensure that the Prime Minister’s Northern Ireland, after security, is enabling the economy much-vaunted big society does not end up smaller and to grow and a private sector recovery to take place in weaker, and leave thousands of the most vulnerable Northern Ireland. I am sure it will be possible to citizens at risk? arrange, some time later this year, an opportunity for us all to get together—the representatives in Northern Mr Osborne: As I mentioned early in my speech, we Ireland, the Secretary of State and I—to discuss what have provided some additional resources for the voluntary we can do to help Northern Ireland see that private sector through the transition fund. As for the local sector job growth. government settlement, I said that it was challenging. The right hon. Lady, who used to be a member of the Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): While I greatly Cabinet, is well aware that some difficult decisions were welcome today’s announcement, my constituents— required to reduce the deficit. If there are other areas of particularly my younger constituents, who live in an Government spending that she would have preferred me area where there is one of the highest levels of youth to cut more, she can tell me what they are, but she did unemployment—would be keen to know what specific not volunteer any in her question. measures will be taken to support apprenticeships, thus enhancing their chances for the future. Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con): May I say, on behalf of not merely the people of Mr Osborne: We have already announced a record Herefordshire but people in rural counties everywhere, investment in apprenticeships, and many tens of thousands how thrilled I am about the new super-fast broadband of additional apprenticeships. That is because of the pilot? That is magnificent news. May I also ask the difficult decisions that we made elsewhere in the Budget, Chancellor whether it made a difference that the previous and I think it shows that we are investing in the skills fundamental savings review had not been implemented that our economy needs for the future. when he came to see the problem face to face? Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): The Chancellor has announced the loss of 490,000 jobs in Mr Osborne: It did make a difference, and I found in the public sector, and has not challenged the forecast by the Treasury absolutely no plans to reduce the budget PricewaterhouseCoopers that 500,000 jobs will be lost deficit. They were pencilled into the March Budget, in the private sector as a consequence. What estimate which Labour Members all cheered at the time, but has he made of the number of jobs that will be lost in absolutely no plans were put in place. the construction sector, in view of what was said by my I am delighted that we have been able to help hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts) Herefordshire in this way. It is one of the most rural about cuts in funds for social housing? Given the accepted parts of England, and I think that super-fast broadband sluggishness of the private sector recovery in the economy, is key to the future of the rural economy. will we not see significant increases in overall unemployment in the next year? Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): We understand the economic mess that the coalition Government have Mr Osborne: The hon. Gentleman, who is a member inherited and the problems that it presents, but the of the Treasury Committee, knows that the budget spending review represents a huge gamble with people’s deficit was threatening the economic stability of the jobs, with economic growth and with public welfare. I country. He also knows that his party proposed to suppose we all hope that it pays off. eliminate the structural deficit over a slightly longer 981 Comprehensive Spending Review20 OCTOBER 2010 Comprehensive Spending Review 982 period than we propose. That, however, would not have both that if it does go ahead it will create hundreds of reduced the scale of the cuts; it would merely have jobs in my constituency and thousands more in the prolonged them. A structural deficit is a deficit that north-east of England, and that no public sector money does not return when the economy grows. That is the will be required until after the next election? definition of a structural deficit. We are investing in road projects, and in housing Mr Osborne: I am very aware of that project. If the projects: we are providing 150,000 new homes. The hon. hon. Gentleman will bear with me, the Secretary of Gentleman probably has not had time to study the State for Transport will make an announcement on it document, but the capital cuts that have been set out shortly. today are less than the capital cuts in the March Budget Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): The Chancellor presented by the Labour party. said that fairness was one of the objectives of his Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): Will statement. I grew up in poverty—in fact, I was on free my right hon. Friend assure the House that, unlike the school meals—and one of my ideological objectives in Labour party, which abandoned Prudence after two politics is to deliver social mobility, so will the Chancellor years of government and pursued the policies of economic confirm that the £7.5 billion of extra investment he has recklessness, he will continue to hold Prudence close to announced today is the biggest part of the CSR and will his heart to ensure that we have long-term stability and help unlock potential in some of the poorest families in growth? the country? Mr Osborne: I can assure my hon. Friend that I am Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend brings a life experience planning a long-term relationship with Prudence. to bear on this debate. The two biggest settlements have been for health and education. In education, we have Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Can the Chancellor particularly prioritised disadvantaged children, primarily assure us that the green investment bank will be active those on free school meals. At the heart of the coalition and accessible to all regions, including Northern Ireland, agreement was the commitment to a £2.5 billion pupil and that relevant projects will not be disqualified by premium. We have found that money on top of the flat virtue of having a cross-border character? That would cash settlement per pupil, even when pupil numbers are be entirely appropriate, given our market and environmental rising. It leads to a real increase in resource in schools—over context. four years, rather than the two years that the Labour party was offering at the general election. We are also Mr Osborne: In my statement, I set aside £1 billion of offering for the first time 15 hours of free education for direct Government funding for the green investment all disadvantaged two-year-olds, which will of course bank. That will, I hope, be the minimum sum. I also include those on free school meals. That offers a real want to dispose of certain Government assets and put chance to ensure that other people on free school meals the money from those sales into the bank, but I wanted have as successful a career as my hon. Friend. to provide a minimum of £1 billion in case those asset sales took longer to realise than we hoped. I also want Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): The to lever in private sector investment so that the bank is a Chancellor said that he will replace the education very successful vehicle for helping all parts of the United maintenance allowance with more targeted support. Kingdom invest in green energy. I am very happy to Can he tell me and the thousands of families in Lewisham consider the case for cross-border projects because, who will be affected what could be more targeted than obviously, the economies of Ireland and Northern Ireland £30 into the pocket of a family who are bearing the are very closely linked, and I will come back to the hon. extra burden of keeping a teenager at school? Gentleman on that specific point. Mr Osborne: We looked very carefully at this programme, Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): We have and it has a very high dead weight. We are raising the inherited a social care funding system that is just not fit compulsory participation age to 18 and funding that—one for purpose and that lets down tens of thousands of the of the policy’s original stated purposes was to get most vulnerable people in our society. I greatly welcome people to stay on after 16—and we will introduce a the extra £2 billion of funding while we establish a new more targeted scheme, so there will be help. I have to say and reformed system. When will details of the extra that we conducted a public consultation over the summer, funds be made available? and we received 100,000 responses, many from parents and children in receipt of EMA. It was one of the most Mr Osborne: There are details in the book we have prominent issues raised, and the overwhelming view of published today, and we will set out more details in the the responses was that it was not a well targeted support. coming days. Also, we are, of course, waiting for Andrew That has certainly been my experience from those in Dilnot’s report into social care. We have tried to address some of the schools that I have visited. We are looking a long-established problem that we are all aware of in for a more targeted payment that actually helps those our constituencies: the wall that is sometimes there whom this financial incentive would really encourage to between the health service and the local authority. stay on in education. Given the challenging nature of the settlement, I was conscious that social care might be affected, which is Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con): I welcome the why I found the additional £2 billion for it. Chancellor’s commitment to protecting the science budget and his comments on Lord Browne’s review of university Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab): The Chancellor said and student funding, but does he agree with me—and, in his statement that he would like the country to be apparently, the new shadow Chancellor—that the problem able to afford new rolling stock. Can he say what that with a graduate tax is that the money goes straight to means for the intercity express programme, considering the Treasury and not to the universities? 983 Comprehensive Spending Review20 OCTOBER 2010 Comprehensive Spending Review 984

Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and Mr Osborne: I think that I would get myself into a lot he has considerable experience in this area. The problem of legal hot water if I were to do that, but let me make a with the graduate tax, which we honestly looked at and couple of observations. First, all involved in planning honestly considered—[Interruption.] Actually, an enormous decisions, whether at local, area or national level, should amount of work was done in looking at the feasibility take into account the need for the economic investment of the graduate tax, some of it by the previous Government: that the British economy must have over the coming the shadow Chancellor was the higher education Minister years and give that due consideration. Secondly, we who ruled out a graduate tax, and under the previous have found additional money for offshore wind technology Government the education Department published a investment, including manufacturing at port sites, which paper about why it would not work. As I have said, we was one of the issues the trade unions raised with me as looked at this idea carefully—we approached it in a a particular priority. Finally, both my hon. Friend and genuinely open-minded way—but there were many our hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness disadvantages to it. One of them was that it would (Mr Stuart) have been very persistent in asking for a represent a massive centralisation of the university system Treasury review of the Humber bridge tolls—in which with, basically, the Treasury controlling, almost to the no doubt the shadow Chancellor takes an interest, last pound, how much different universities would get. too—and there will be a Treasury-led review of the That is why, as I understand it, the Russell group of tolls, but I am not going to prejudge its outcome. universities—for a start—are completely against it. Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) (Lab): On the Prime Lesmahagow) (Lab): The Department for International Minister’s statement which the Chancellor confirmed, Development operates within my constituency, and many the House will welcome the facts that the science budget people will welcome today’s commitment by the is safeguarded, that the adult apprenticeship scheme Government to spend 0.7% of GDP on international will be advanced, and that £500 million will go into the development. However, can the Chancellor tell me how Tyne and Wear metro and the Tees valley bus network. much of that budget will be assigned to works previously delivered and paid for by other Government Departments, Following on from the questions of my hon. Friends agencies and non-departmental public bodies? the Members for Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce) and for Leicester West (Liz Kendall), since the Chancellor Mr Osborne: There is a very substantial increase, of places so much emphasis on fairness, how can it be fair about 37%, in DFID’s budget. There are parts of to make 490,000 people unemployed in the public sector international development work that the Foreign and and a putative further 500,000 in the private sector? Commonwealth Office carries out too—conflict stabilisation How can that be a sensible policy for growth? and the like. It is, of course, perfectly within the rules set on the UN commitment, which are internationally policed Mr Osborne: That is, quite frankly, a deliberate and so we cannot fudge them, and perfectly reasonable misrepresentation of the number, which was produced to count that expenditure towards the 0.7% target. independently. The number is for the reduction in the However, the large bulk will be delivered through DFID, public sector head-count over four years. As I have said, whose budget has a substantial increase. I suggest that it there will be redundancies, but there will also be posts is a task for this House—all parties—to ensure that that that go unfilled. The plan set forward by the Labour development aid is well spent on the poorest people and party also involved a reduction in the head-count of on conflict prevention. hundreds of thousands; the Leader of the Opposition admitted that on a number of occasions during both Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): the general election and his party’s leadership contest. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the reason why We have all got to face up to this challenge, but I should the previous Labour Government failed to hold a spending point out that the same organisation that produced the review was because they bottled their responsibilities? number that the hon. Member for Middlesbrough Does he also agree that Labour Members are still (Sir Stuart Bell) cites—the Office for Budget running away from those now and that the cuts that we Responsibility—also forecasts falling unemployment are seeing are no more than the butcher’s bill for 13 years through to 2014. of Labour profligacy and waste?

Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I welcome Mr Osborne: I completely agree with my hon. Friend. the commitment to infrastructure funding for Yorkshire It is striking that in all the responses and everything that and Humber, which follows the announcement on the we have heard today from Labour Front Benchers and review of the Humber bridge tolls two weeks ago. I also Back Benchers there has not been a single positive welcome the commitment to offshore wind energy. Just proposal as to how to reduce the deficit that they all sat last week in North Lincolnshire, Labour and Conservative there and allowed to grow. councillors voted through an offshore wind development at the South Humber gateway, which has the potential Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab): What will the increase to bring 5,000 jobs to the region. However, that is now in train fares do to get people out of their cars and on to in jeopardy because Natural England is requesting that the trains? it be called in for a public inquiry, with the risk that the jobs will go to mainland Europe. Given the commitment Mr Osborne: What I would say to the hon. Gentleman to offshore wind, will the Chancellor have a quiet word is that, again, we have to take a realistic decision about with the Secretary of State for Communities and Local investment in our railways. We are going to invest Government and encourage him to reject that application £14 billion in them and we also want to invest in new for a public inquiry? rolling stock, on which I was asked a question by the 985 Comprehensive Spending Review20 OCTOBER 2010 Comprehensive Spending Review 986 hon. Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson), who has constituents, as will the spending to protect the post now left his place. That has required a tough decision office network and, most importantly for us, to deal on rail fares, but I hope that passengers will at least with coastal erosion. Does he agree that it is the coalition understand that if we want investment in rail stock we Government who are making the difficult and politically have to be able to afford it, and the people who use the courageous spending decisions? That has also been rail stock should make a contribution to that. reflected today in the European Parliament, where Conservative MEPs voted to reduce the European Union Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con): I welcome the bold budget, unlike Labour MEPs, who did not take that and powerful statement that my right hon. Friend has opportunity and instead also voted for tax-raising powers made today and, in particular, the efforts to protect the for the EU. most vulnerable. Does he agree that the biggest risk to our economy would have been to have done nothing at Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend tells me something that all, as advocated by most Labour Members, and that I did not know, which is that the behaviour of Labour the action that he has taken today will do the most to MEPs is completely inconsistent with the message from restore economic confidence to our economy? their party that it is serious about trying to reduce Britain’s budget deficit. The money that we have found for flood and coastal defences totals about £2 billion Mr Osborne: I agree with my hon. Friend. Whoever and will help 145,000 households. Obviously, the relevant won the general election—whoever formed the Secretary of State will make the announcements about Government—was going to have to come to the House the different tranches that will now go ahead, and I wish of Commons to set out a plan for reducing the highest Suffolk Coastal every success. budget deficit in our peacetime history; the deficit is considerably higher than it was when Denis Healey had Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) to go to the International Monetary Fund. We have set (Lab): This is further to the question asked by my hon. out those proposals, and I believe that they will deliver Friend the Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and certainty and stability going forward. The market interest Lesmahagow (Mr McCann) and refers to the Chancellor’s rates for British businesses and British families are use of the words “conflict resolution”, which strangely already lower as a result of the decisions that we have were also used several times by the Prime Minister taken since coming into office. As for the decisions that yesterday in the context of a statement on defence we have announced today, I have noted that not a single expenditure. It also recalls the episode of the Pergau Labour Member has asked me about the increase in the dam. Can the Chancellor give us an absolute assurance child tax credit, which will help 4 million families. that ring-fenced funding for overseas aid will not find its way into defence commitments and will be used for Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I am the purposes outlined in the millennium development not sure how the Government can claim to be the goals? greenest ever when it is estimated that Department of Energy and Climate Change and Department for Mr Osborne: Let me say to the right hon. Gentleman Environment, Food and Rural Affairs funding combined that, first, the 0.7% target is internationally monitored will reduce by 47% in real terms over the next four and so, having said we are going to hit it, we obviously years. However, my question is this: should the Chancellor do not want to find the international bodies saying that not do more than just hope that the private sector will we have badged overseas aid in the wrong way. fill the huge gap between the £1 billion he has set aside [Interruption.] May I say to the hon. Member for Brent for the green investment bank and the £4 billion to North (Barry Gardiner) that we have increased the £6 billion that Ernst and Young says is the minimum international aid budget by almost £4 billion today? I required? He said that he would try to find a bit more understand that lots of Labour Members, and indeed through the sale of assets, but how much does he Members on this side of the House, want to ask questions imagine that will fund as well? about specific difficult decisions that we have taken, but to quibble about the massive 37% increase in DFID’s Mr Osborne: There is commitment, even in these budget is a little unfair. We have made a decision as a difficult times, to a carbon capture and storage House of Commons to hit the 0.7% target, as internationally demonstration, to the development of offshore wind observed—all parties were committed to this in the technology and manufacturing at port sites, and to a general election—which we have to understand has renewable heat incentive. On the green investment bank, consequences in Government budgets elsewhere. That it would have been easy to say, in my position, “Let’s involves a substantial increase in the international wait to see whether we can get some Government asset development budget. We are funding very specific projects sales and some private sector money; just create the on malaria, maternal health and the like, and as a body and hope it gets the funding.” I wanted to provide country we should be proud and tell the world about a back-stop and I have done so today by making our commitment, rather than suggest that the rules will available £1 billion from general Government expenditure. be fudged when they cannot be because they are However, I also want to see substantial Government internationally policed. asset sales go into the green investment bank and to Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con): Will my lever in some private sector money, so that it is a right hon. Friend take this opportunity to nail, once multi-billion pound force for investment in our country. and for all, the lie perpetuated by many Labour Members that the international banking crisis is in some way Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): I congratulate completely responsible for the budget deficit, given the Chancellor and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury that, in reality, the figures show that just £40 billion of on this spending review. Delivering investment in the total £667 billion spent by Government last year 21st century infrastructure will be welcomed by my went to prop up the banks? 987 Comprehensive Spending Review20 OCTOBER 2010 Comprehensive Spending Review 988

Mr Osborne: If my hon. Friend has not yet had the Mr Speaker: Order. This statement can run for only a opportunity to do so, he should look at chart 1.1 in the few more minutes, so some people will be disappointed, book produced by the Treasury, which shows that a but I reiterate the appeal for short questions. Help structural deficit was emerging throughout the past yourself and help others in the process. decade and that that made Britain particularly ill-prepared for what happened in our banks. Of course, the poor Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): The regulation of our banking system meant that this country Chancellor has announced a cut of 490,000 jobs in the was probably affected more than any other, except for public sector. Whichever way he slices it, that still means Iceland and perhaps Ireland. We are trying to sort that that even after four years and even if it is down to out, by addressing not only the public finances, but the natural wastage there will be 490,000 jobs in the public regulation of the banks. As I say, if we had fixed the sector that are lost to the economy. He also wants to roof when the sun was shining, we would have been in a move people off benefit and into work to save on the better condition to deal with the storms. welfare budget. How does he make this add up? Where are the jobs coming from that the people who are now Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): The Chancellor on welfare— will be aware that housing is the biggest and most Mr Speaker: Order. We are grateful, but I think we serious problem facing people in my constituency, because have the thrust of it. of overcrowding and a shortage of social housing. His proposals in July to cap housing benefit render at risk Mr Osborne: First, to put it in context, close to the lives of many people living in private rented 200,000 jobs have been created in the last three months. accommodation, where the rent is paid by housing Secondly, the Labour party’s plans involved a head-count benefit, and his proposals now to have two tiers of reduction of more than 400,000. It was accepted by council tenure do not sit very well, because one tenant Labour politicians during the election that there would will be living in secure accommodation on a fixed rent be a head-count reduction and that there would be of about £100 a week whereas their next-door neighbour, redundancies. This is what happens when a country because of an accident of dates, will be paying at least loses control of its public finances. If we had been twice that in rent and will have no security of tenure. better managed over recent years—if the people doing How does that fit with the notion that we are all in it my job before me had managed to avoid this record together? budget deficit, which is the largest in the G20— [Interruption.] Opposition Members keep saying that Mr Osborne: There is a problem in social housing, this is all to do with the international situation. They but frankly the party that the hon. Gentleman supported have not yet managed to explain to me why we were the in this House—on and off—for 13 years did absolutely worst affected in that international situation. We have nothing to address it. We are trying to reform social to take some difficult decisions, but it will help if private housing provision so that more homes are built and so sector recovery helps to create jobs. The number that that there is more availability of socially rented properties, the hon. Lady keeps using is a number from an independent unlike the fall that we have seen recently. He talks about body—the Office for Budget Responsibility—that she his constituents and he must ask himself—I certainly presumably regards as credible, since she is quoting it, confronted this—whether it was fair to ask the people but the OBR also forecast falling unemployment over of his constituency who go out to work to fund housing the period. She cannot really use one forecast from the benefit bills of £50,000, £60,000 or £70,000 a year. That body and not the other. is totally unaffordable to the working people of Islington. We have introduced what I think is a perfectly reasonable Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): When rule that the average family out of work should not get my right hon. Friend met the IMF and World Bank more in benefits than the average family earns in work. I officials in Washington recently, did they agree with his find it difficult to see how people could object to that. approach on reform, fairness and growth, which he has presented today, or did they suggest something else, like Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): the Opposition have? Does my right hon. Friend agree that in this country the key to our economic recovery will be the development Mr Osborne: They said very clearly in their article IV and growth of new small and medium-sized enterprises? assessment of the British economy that the measures we More people are employed in SMEs in this country had taken were essential for fiscal sustainability. They than in any other sector. Does he also agree that in do not always say that kind of thing about economies—last order to get SMEs up and running, it will be key that year, they criticised the previous Government’s economic they have better funding, and that we remove barriers to plans. To be honest with my hon. Friend, I did not share entry for new providers to get funding to new SMEs? all my detailed budget plans with the IMF; I thought I would share them with the House of Commons first. Mr Osborne: I did not mention in my speech that we are funding the enterprise finance guarantee scheme to Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): In the statement, help small businesses get access to credit. In the Budget the Chancellor did not mention additions to tax credits I also stopped the increase in the small companies tax at any stage. One of the anomalies before the statement rate that was going to take place under the previous was made was, I understand, that people on an income Government. We want to help the small businesses and of £45,000 would be penalised in their tax credits whereas medium-sized enterprises that are the engine room of those who had two incomes coming into their house, our private sector economy. I hope that some of the perhaps totalling £80,000, would not be penalised. That transport infrastructure, which is something that businesses money is not cappuccino and cupcake money—it is for often raise with us, set out today will help. education and clothing for their children and for the mortgage. What steps will the Chancellor take to help Several hon. Members rose— those people? 989 Comprehensive Spending Review20 OCTOBER 2010 Comprehensive Spending Review 990

Mr Osborne: I think the hon. Gentleman is referring in the north-west of England. We want to get away from to child benefit, and it has clearly been a difficult the economy that we have seen over the past 10 years, decision to remove child benefit from families where where all the growth was focused on one sector and there is a higher rate taxpayer. It raises £2.5 billion. It is where, from memory, for every 10 jobs created in the interesting to note that, although it was the first issue south-east of England by the private sector one job was raised by the Leader of the Opposition at Prime Minister’s created in the midlands and the north. That is not a questions last week, not a single Labour MP has mentioned sustainable economic model. it. I think they are beginning to realise that making this their priority for public spending is probably a mistake. Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): I was grateful to hear I understand that it is a difficult decision, but I have to the announcement from the Chancellor about the Mersey try to make this fair. These higher rate taxpayers represent gateway, which has all-party support. However, he knows the top 20% of earners and the decisions that I have that it must have funding to ensure that it can go ahead. taken have tried to make this fair across the income Will he set out today, given that he is a local MP, what distribution. funding is allocated for the Mersey gateway project?

Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): It is Mr Osborne: I do not have the exact number to hand, often said of the last Labour Government that although but I shall give it to the hon. Gentleman this afternoon. talk is cheap, the consequences of their actions were We are funding the project as it was set out. I know the very expensive. Does the Chancellor agree that the chief executive of Halton borough council because he sentiment of the spending review is not about cuts but used to be the chief executive of my local borough about responsibility and the financial responsibility that council. I have discussed it with him and I hope to have we bequeath to our children and our grandchildren? further discussions to ensure that the bridge is built and that the private investment linked to the bridge comes Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend makes a very good in. I shall give the hon. Gentleman the exact number point. We have talked a lot about fairness and about later today. fairness across the income distribution, but there is also a fairness between generations. If we do not deal with Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): May I these debts and do not have a credible plan, it will be thank the Chancellor for taking the decision to give to our children and grandchildren who are saddled with Equitable Life more than three times the amount that the debts that we were not prepared to pay. I think that was recommended in the Chadwick report? Will he is very unfair. describe to the House and to my constituents what settlement he thinks that the Equitable Life policyholders Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): The Chancellor might have got if the Opposition were still in government? describes the cuts to local government as challenging, but will he clarify whether cuts to the area cost adjustment and to specific grants mean that cuts to local authorities Mr Osborne: We know the answer to that because could be up to 35%? Both those grants are based on they had 13 years to address the problem and gave deprivation. How does he reconcile that with his obligations absolutely nothing. They then set up Sir John Chadwick’s on child poverty? report and, although I thank him for it, I do not agree with its conclusions. I strongly suspect that if Labour Mr Osborne: The right hon. Gentleman is obviously—I had won the election, they would have agreed with his do not hold this against him—a centraliser rather than conclusions, which would have meant just a third of the a localiser. He would like all these decisions to be taken money that I have set out today for Equitable Life by people doing my job and directed to elected local policyholders. We are helping policyholders across the councils through grants. We take a different approach. piece, but our particular priority has been the trapped We are sweeping away a lot of these grants. I have to say annuitants, whom we will fully compensate. however—I am sure that this will be of interest to people in his constituency, as I know something of the Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): The nature of it—that the increase in the child tax credit will Chancellor has confirmed that almost half a million help. We have also, at the insistence of the Secretary of public sector jobs will go under his plan, and State for Communities and Local Government, put a PricewaterhouseCoopers estimates that another half a great deal of resources into the Supporting People million will go in the private sector. Will he explain how programme, which is particularly important in areas adding a million people to the dole so that they are such as that represented by the right hon. Gentleman. paying no taxes will bring down the deficit and help our economy to grow? David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): Does the Chancellor agree that the investments spelled out today in the Mr Osborne: Let me explain it to the hon. Lady. This regional growth fund will go a long way to help underpin country has the largest Budget deficit in the G20. If we growth and private sector jobs in the north-west, which do not address that, there will be economic ruin for this we both represent? country, so we are addressing it. The reduction in the public sector head-count will take place over four years. Mr Osborne: As my hon. Friend is my local MP, I This economy created 200,000 jobs in the last three had better agree with him. His predecessor—people will months and part of the head-count reduction will happen remember the former Member for Macclesfield—was through turnover. The last time I checked, Labour were passionate about supporting manufacturing and I am still committed to eliminating the structural deficit—they glad that the torch has been passed to a new generation just would have taken longer over it—so the job losses there. My hon. Friend is right. We need to see a private and the head-count reduction would have been prolonged. sector recovery and we need to see growth and investment I do not think that is right for this country. 991 Comprehensive Spending Review 20 OCTOBER 2010 992

Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): As a Points of Order fellow one-nation Conservative, does my right hon. Friend agree that today’s announcement has been driven not by some ideological crusade, as the Labour party 3.3 pm has suggested, but by a genuine desire to spend more Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): Government revenue on public services and less on On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You have been very servicing Labour’s debt? generous in the amount of time that you have given today, but many Members on both sides of the House Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Of did not have copies of the Chancellor’s statement after course, we have made choices today. First, we have he sat down. It seems that the Vote Office did not have chosen to seek to reduce debt interest by going faster sufficient papers or that the Treasury did not give it than the Labour party would have done. I think it is enough. Could you ensure that in future the Chancellor better to spend the money here rather than to give it to makes sure that the Vote Office is given ample copies of our foreign creditors. Secondly, we have chosen to put such statements so that hon. Members can scrutinise particular emphasis on trying to reduce the welfare them? bills. That has enabled us to increase investment in the NHS, schools and early-years provision, which we were Mr Speaker: The point is noted by the Chair and I discussing earlier. That is true to the values of one-nation feel sure that it will be noted by those on the Treasury conservatism and to the values of this coalition. Bench. We are doubly grateful to the hon. Gentleman.

Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): I welcome the Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): On a point of Chancellor’s decision to honour the previous Government’s order, Mr Speaker. In response to my question in Prime commitment to contribute 0.7% of gross domestic product Minister’s questions, the Prime Minister said that I to international development, but I would like absolute mentioned the British Chambers of Commerce, but I transparency on this. How much of the money that was did not. I referred specifically to a report from the previously allocated in the Defence and Foreign and North East chamber of commerce, which said that Commonwealth Office budgets is now going to be 17,000 jobs in the construction industry were at risk. I covered by the Department for International Development’s am the first to admit that my accent is not always the budget? easiest to understand, but I am also sure that the Prime Minister was not misleading the House. Can you advise Mr Osborne: Let me make two points. First, there is me on how this matter can be corrected? an increase of almost £4 billion in the DFID budget. Secondly, having a tri-departmental fund for DFID, the Mr Speaker: The hon. Gentleman has just corrected Ministry of Defence and the Foreign Office will help it very successfully. I do not want to be personal, but let with conflict and supporting post-conflict stabilisation. me say to him that I have never found the slightest It will grow from £229 million this year to £309 million difficulty in understanding what he has had to say. I in 2014-15—a growth of just short of £100 million. hope that he is grateful for that. That will help us to avoid having to come into emergency situations, but it is, of course, pretty small given the Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): What did you say, scale of the increase that I have just announced in Mr Speaker? DFID’s budget. Mr Speaker: We are always grateful for the quick- Several hon. Members rose— wittedness of the hon. Member for Rhondda, bestriding the Opposition Front Bench. Mr Speaker: Order. I am sorry to disappoint colleagues, but we have had a marathon session. I am grateful to We come now to the ten-minute rule motion, for the Chancellor and colleagues for their co-operation, which the proposer has been very patiently waiting. but we must move on. 993 20 OCTOBER 2010 Police Terms and Conditions of 994 Service (Redundancy) Police Terms and Conditions of Service In my own force, Kent, our chief constable had suggested (Redundancy) cuts of 500 officers and 1,000 civilians. Those civilians are employed in a range of roles—from Motion for leave to introduce a Bill (Standing Order call handlers to crime investigators to police community No. 23) support officers—which are clearly on the front line of policing. Forces often use civilians for specialist roles 3.5 pm that do not need fully warranted officers who have had Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): I beg costly training across all aspects of policing. That allows to move, police forces to concentrate those officers where the public want them most. We want the police to do that, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision for but unless we change the law, we risk forcing police police officers to be offered, or be made subject to, terms of redundancy; to set out the circumstances in which such redundancies officers off the streets and into back-office roles that are can be made; and for connected purposes. now done by police staff, because we let police authorities I should first declare an interest as a member of the make their civilian employees redundant but make them Kent police authority. In that role, working with Kent’s pay police officers until they retire, whether or not they chief constable, I will have to help to make the savings are needed and irrespective of performance. the Chancellor has just announced. I should also emphasise The only flexibility—I use that word advisedly—that that I speak as a friend and supporter of the police. I police forces and authorities have in respect of police pay tribute to their service and the fact that, almost officers is to force them to retire under regulations 19 alone among the public servants affected by today’s and 20. Under regulation 19, police officers can be announcement, they forswear the right to strike. required to retire when they have reached pensionable In Kent, we are fortunate to have a chief constable service, which is generally after 30 years. Meanwhile, who sees lower spending as an opportunity to deliver a regulation 20 states that a police authority may require new and more efficient way of policing Kent and to a police officer to retire keep crime coming down. As we make cuts in the “if he is permanently disabled for the performance of his duty”. central grant—these might be higher than the overall But I must tell the House that, when in Kent one of our figure of 4% per year that we have just heard—it is officers is injured while protecting the public and is essential to allow police forces and authorities to decide perfectly capable of doing a good desk job, we would how best to police their areas with the money they have. like to look after them, not force them to retire simply Unfortunately, the law does not currently give them that because they are the only type of officer to whom we freedom, so we are asking chief constables to make cuts can do that. with one hand tied behind their back. That is because, I am not sure whether those regulations will in any historically, the police enjoy a unique status under the event survive what I suspect will be a wave of litigation common law as constables who exercise discretion under that their use will soon engender, but I want to introduce the Crown. A senior police officer cannot order a the Bill because I believe that hon. Members should constable to make an arrest; the constable must decide make that decision in the House. If we are to require for himself. On that basis, the courts have traditionally police forces and authorities to make significant savings, held that the law of master and servant does not apply we should allow them to do that in a way that makes to the police. That law has evolved into the modern most sense for local policing. We should certainly not statute-based employment law that we have today, but, force them to do it by targeting civilians, the old and the extraordinarily, the police still remain outside its scope. disabled. As no one employs the police, no one can make them I ask hon. Members for permission to introduce the redundant. A police officer is appointed subject to two Bill, since today we are telling our local police forces years’ probation, but after that, unless they are found that they must make savings; we should also give them guilty of gross misconduct, their appointment as a the freedom to decide how that is done. police officer simply continues until they retire—generally after 30 years. It makes France look like a flexible Question put and agreed to. labour market. Ordered, Hon. Members might ask how cuts will be made in That Mark Reckless, Mr Aidan Burley, Kwasi Kwarteng, police budgets. The answer is that they will be concentrated Lorraine Fullbrook, Amber Rudd, Priti Patel, Mr Robert on cheaper civilians. On average, police forces are made Buckland, Mr David Ruffley, Mr Douglas Carswell, up of about 60% police officers and 40% civilians, but Fiona Bruce, Mr Philip Hollobone and Mr Christopher as forces have set out projected plans for reductions, Chope present the Bill. they have had no choice but to target civilian staff Mark Reckless accordingly presented the Bill. disproportionately. Strathclyde police say that they plan to lose 200 officers and 600 civilians, and Cambridgeshire Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on police say that they plan to lose 470 officers and 550 civilians. Friday 14 October, and to be printed (Bill 81). 995 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 996 Constituencies Bill Parliamentary Voting System and (b) the Electoral Commission has reported to the House of Commons, that over 95% of eligible voters in each Constituencies Bill local authority area are estimated to be on the [Relevant documents: The Third Report from the Political electoral register.’. and Constitutional Reform Committee, Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, HC 437, and the 3.13 pm oral evidence taken before the Committee on Thursday The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of 15 July on the Coalition Government’s programme of the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): I welcome political and constitutional reform, HC 358-i.] you back to the Chair, Ms Primarolo, and to the consideration of clause 8. I am delighted that we can [4TH ALLOCATED DAY] continue debating amendment 127. Of course, we would Further considered in Committee not have been able to do this if the Opposition’s attempt to prevent us from doing so, when we dealt with the timetable motion yesterday, had succeeded. When I was [DAWN PRIMAROLO in the Chair] last speaking to this group of amendments, we were having a brief exchange on the matter of Wales. I do not Clause 8 want to continue that exchange, because we need the opportunity to discuss the much more important issues REPORTS OF THE BOUNDARY COMMISSIONS relating to Wales and the other parts of the United Amendment proposed (19 October): 127, page 6, leave Kingdom under clause 9, which I hope we will reach shortly. out line 35 and insert— I was also considering the amendments proposed by ‘(a) within twelve months of Part 2 of the Parliamentary the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). One of Voting System and Constituencies Act 2010 coming the great advantages of having an overnight break is into force in accordance with section 16(2) thereof’.— that we can look back at the Official Report and read (Chris Bryant.) what the protagonists have said. I looked back through The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means the report of the 50 minutes that the hon. Gentleman (Dawn Primarolo): I remind the Committee that with took in proposing his amendments and found that he this we are taking the following: did not, as I had suspected, mention them once during those 50 minutes. We know not from him what the Amendment 341, page 6, line 35, leave out ‘2013’ and content of the amendments is. So I propose to move on insert ‘2018’. from the hon. Gentleman to the right hon. and Amendment 342, page 6, line 36, leave out ‘fifth’ and hon. Members who contributed something positive to insert ‘tenth’. the debate. Amendment 38, page 6, line 36, at end insert— Much of what we heard was about registration and ‘(3A) After subsection (2) there is inserted— the fact—it is a fact—that many people do not appear “(2AA) The boundary review due to be completed by the date on the electoral register. The hon. Member for Blackley set out in subsection (2)(a) above shall not begin until both and Broughton (Graham Stringer)—I am glad to see Houses of Parliament have approved a report from the Electoral him in his place—made clear his view on that, and said, Commission certifying that in its opinion sufficient measures I think, that we were moving to a system whereby have been taken to provide for the registration of eligible voters.”.’. 3.5 million people are not on the register. I disagree with Amendment 70, in clause 9, page 7, line 32, at end him about that. We are not moving to a system whereby insert— 3.5 million people are not on the register; we are already ‘(1A) This rule is subject to an independent assessment of the at that stage, and have been for a very long time. The Boundary Commission as to the potential electorate within any disgrace is that we have been so unsuccessful in dealing area where the Commission, having consulted— with the parts of the country where registration is (a) the Electoral Commission, insufficient. (b) the Registration Officer of the local authority or My hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew authorities in that area, George) set out some of the reasons why we will never (c) such other organisations and individuals whom the achieve 100% registration, given the difficulties involved. Boundary Commission may choose to consult, He is absolutely right, and I do not disagree with his determine that the difference between the registered electorate analysis in any way. That is why the Government are and the assessed numbers eligible to be registered is so significant introducing proposals at least to help the process and as to give rise to concern about the number of people to be get as many people as possible on to the register. served within such constituencies as would otherwise be created The difficulties that we have with the amendments by rule 2(1) above.’. fall into two groups. They would change the basis on Amendment 125, page 10, line 2, leave out from which boundary reviews are effected, moving away from ‘persons’ to end of line 6 and insert the number of registered electors to some other basis, ‘who are estimated by the Office of National Statistics to be whether an estimate of eligible electors or an estimate eligible to vote in United Kingdom parliamentary elections, of population. Alternatively, they suggest that we delay whether or not they are so registered to vote.’. the process and make it longer, by a variety of mechanisms. Amendment 135, in clause 16, page 13, line 5, at end I do not believe that that is the right way forward. The insert proper course of action is to ensure that register is as ‘with the exception of Part 2, which will not come into force accurate as possible. As I have said, the Government are until— taking action to improve the registration system. (a) after the referendum on the determination of powers Amendment 125 would require the boundary devolved to the National Assembly for Wales under commissions to use an estimate of eligible electors, to the terms of the Government of Wales Act 2006; and be provided by the Office for National Statistics. The 997 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 998 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill ONS does not at present make any estimate of eligible different constituent parts of the Union. That has included electors. Census data are available, but a census is the representation that each part requires in order for carried out only once a decade, does not cover eligibility the Union to be solid and hold together, which is to vote and may contain inaccuracies. Indeed, in evidence precisely what happened in the 1536 Act of Union, the to the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, 1707 Act of Union and the 1801 Act of Union. With all the secretary of the Boundary Commission for Scotland three, the first thing determined was how much said that there would be “significant practical problems” representation there should be from Wales, Scotland with using population rather than registered electorate and Ireland. Obviously, that was subsequently changed for the purposes of the boundary review. It was mentioned with the creation of the Irish Free State. that the electoral register is published annually, whereas The further change to Scottish representation occurred the census, which does not record whether a person is when we introduced devolution, so, following the Scotland eligible to vote, is published every 10 years. Act 1998, it was agreed that because a variety of powers Delaying the boundary reviews would simply make would be given to the Scottish Parliament, it was right the information on which they are based more inaccurate. and proper for the number of seats that Scotland accounted The general election held last May was based on electoral for in the Westminster Parliament to be reduced. registration data 10 years out of date. That cannot be The first referendum in Wales on devolution brought right, and that is my difficulty with amendments 341 about the creation of the National Assembly for Wales, and 342, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for which does not have law-making powers or enjoy any Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland). Those amendments powers over crime, justice or policing, so it is a somewhat would not only delay the initial review, but halve the different body from the Scottish Parliament. However, frequency of such reviews, by requiring the boundary there is a proposition that follows on from the Wales commissions to report before 1 October 2018, instead Act 2006, and it will be tested in a referendum, which of 2013, and every 10th year after that, instead of every the Government have said will take place in the first fifth year. That would simply make an unacceptable quarter of next year, but for which as yet no date has situation worse. been set. The Welsh Assembly Government have requested The Government’s proposals build on the existing that it should be on 3 March, but the Secretary of State arrangements for boundary reviews, which have been for Wales has not yet assented to that. We do not know based on the electoral register for decades. It is right whether a date has been agreed or whether the referendum that we take action in support of complete and accurate will proceed. The date of 3 March may well be problematic, registers, and the Government are taking that action. as—how can I put it?—it sometimes rains in Wales in On that basis, I urge right hon. and hon. Members not March. Sometimes we have fairly excessive conditions to press their amendments. in large parts of Wales at the beginning of March, so the date may well end up being inappropriate. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): We have had However, be that as it may, we need to be assured of 51 speakers—or rather, 52, counting the Deputy Leader what powers the Welsh Assembly will have if we are of the House, who has just spoken. Despite his rather then to have a coherent Union-based understanding of petulant and “ad hominate” speech last night, we have how much representation there should be from Wales in none the less had a good debate. He did, however, the Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain correctly excoriate me for not fully adumbrating the and Northern Ireland. That is why we have tabled the amendments that we tabled. That was partly because I two amendments, and I shall press them to a Division, took 31 interventions, more than half of which were because I have not heard anything from the Deputy from Government Members, but perhaps it would be of Leader of the House to alter my opinion that we should assistance if I were now to explain precisely why our proceed on a Union-based understanding of how we two amendments are important. create this House, not on a purely mathematically based The Deputy Leader of the House was quite right last assumption. night to say that our two amendments, 127 and 135, which refer to different parts of the Bill, are not necessarily Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Further to that point, readily comprehensible at first sight—partly because does my hon. Friend recognise that because of the one refers to clause 8 and the other to clause 16. Both arithmetical formula, the Bill will ensure not just that appear at different points in the amendment paper. boundaries will change every five years, but that the Consequently, Members will have to turn to pages 429 number of seats allocated to each Boundary Commission and 445 to find them. could change? The number of seats in Northern Ireland Amendment 127 would include in clause 8 the words could go up in one review and down in another, and “within twelve months of part 2 of the…Act…coming into force that in turn would affect the seats in the Northern in accordance with section 16(2) thereof’.” Ireland Assembly, because the constituencies of the In other words, the Boundary Commission would produce Assembly and of Parliament are absolutely coterminous. its report within 12 months of an addition to clause 16(2), The proposal will create havoc. which we would insert through amendment 135, stating, “after the referendum on the determination of powers devolved Chris Bryant: The seats in the Welsh Assembly are to the National Assembly for Wales under the terms of the coterminous with those for this Parliament at the moment, Government of Wales Act 2006”. although there is a provision later in the Bill to change The Deputy Leader of the House rightly told me off that through decoupling. That is something that we last night for not explaining precisely why we believe must analyse. My hon. Friend is right that there may be that that is important. As I tried to say in yesterday’s a change in the number of seats between each segment. debate, historically, we have constructed Parliament in If there is a boundary review every five years, there this country by determination according to the four might well be a change in the number of seats, and in 999 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1000 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Chris Bryant] shape rotten; I am merely trying to say that there is an illogicality in the argument that the Government are the end I am not sure whether that is likely to lead to a presenting. They are trying to say that we should have more stable constitutional settlement between the four mathematical purity everywhere—except where we should constituent parts of the Union. not have it. I am trying to say that we should strive There are those who like to think that there is just the towards broad equality of representation in each of the Union, not any constituent parts, and there are those seats. However, other considerations need to be brought who want to think that there are just the constituent to mind, and that should apply not only to the seats that parts—which should not be constituent parts but I mentioned, but to some others as well. independent. However, I believe that they are constituent Mr MacNeil: I want some clarification. Does the parts of the whole, and I say gently to Ministers that the hon. Gentleman agree with the sensible exceptions that way in which they are proceeding in relation to some have been made for Na h-Eileanan an Iar and Orkney parts of the Union is not likely to aid the Unionist and Shetland? Yes or no? cause. It will be detrimental. We do not say that the provision in our amendments Chris Bryant: Yes, I do. As the hon. Gentleman should be introduced solely if the referendum is successful knows perfectly well, we have tabled amendments that in granting further powers to the Assembly. would include his seat, but also include others. He is a sage man and I know that he would want to pursue the Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): To be entirely clear, is logic of the creation of his own seat so as to make it Labour party policy that England be under-represented exactly the same exemptions in some other cases where in this House? there are overriding concerns—in the Isle of Wight, for instance. That is the nature of the amendment that we Chris Bryant: No, it is not Labour party policy that have tabled elsewhere. anywhere be under-represented. We believe, as I said yesterday evening, that it is important to achieve greater Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): Could we put equalisation of the number of voters in each electorate, it this way? Given that the Government have already but that should not be a purely mathematical exercise. conceded that there are exceptions to the numerical Where there are overriding concerns, those should be rule, would it not be better to give the judgment to the brought into play. Indeed, the Government agree to Boundary Commission, which could not be perceived some degree, because they have created a degree of to have any vested interest? It could make the judgment exception for Northern Ireland and a completely different on where exceptions should and should not apply, rather set of exemptions for two seats in Scotland, which, than the Government laying that out in the Bill. according to the Government’s interpretation of the situation—and, I presume therefore, the hon. Chris Bryant: The hon. Lady speaks with almost as Gentleman’s—will effectively create two rotten boroughs much sagacity as the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan in Scotland. We think that if we are going to make an Iar (Mr MacNeil). I agree with her that there is no exemptions, we should make a broader set of exemptions, logic to how the exceptions have been laid out. The rather than just those two. Boundary Commissions should be given a certain latitude while striving towards a greater equalisation of the Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): To correct not number of electors in each constituency. only my hon. Friend but myself, I should say that I am reliably informed that three seats are involved. There is Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): Does another seat; there is a rule that applies only to that seat my hon. Friend find it surprising that the Bill comes on geographical grounds. That does not apply in Wales, from a party that is meant to be committed to the where, as I am sure my hon. Friend will agree, a seat Union and that that party’s parliamentary colleagues could well stretch from one side to the other if the will be involving themselves in the destruction of the population density was low. historic Duchy of Cornwall along the same lines?

3.30 pm Chris Bryant: My hon. and historical Friend is absolutely right. That adds to my argument, and to arguments that Chris Bryant: My hon. Friend is right to correct me. I I shall hope to adduce later. As I said, there need to be accept the admonition that three seats are being created some exemptions where there are overriding geographical, in this way. I do not think it inappropriate for those political or cultural issues that need to be resolved. seats to exist. But the logic of the Government’s One of the overriding political issues is the bonding argument—that there should be complete mathematical together of the Union, which historically has taken into purity—leads one to suppose that they can only think consideration the existing political structures in Wales, that they are creating three rotten boroughs. Northern Ireland and Scotland. That is why we have Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) tabled amendments 127 and 135, which would mean (SNP): I detected a form of back-pedalling in the hon. that the Boundary Commission would not be able to Gentleman’s answer to the hon. Member for Alyn and proceed until the referendum had happened in Wales. In Deeside (Mark Tami). I assume that he is not saying that way, we would know that there was a settled view that Labour’s policy is that the islands of Scotland are about what powers the National Assembly for Wales rotten in some way. would have. There are other amendments in this group. In particular, Chris Bryant: No. The hon. Gentleman knows that the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) personally I have a great affection for the islands; indeed, has tabled amendments 341 and 342, either of which I many of my ancestors came from Lewis. But that is not would be happy to support; I very much hope that he the point. I am not trying to say that Scotland is in any will press one of them to a Division. 1001 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1002 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill The hon. Gentleman made an important point in his Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): My hon. contribution to the debate when he said that we have Friend suggested that there would be changes every five only just had a boundary review and we are to have years but that that might not affect every constituency. another by 2013, which seems rather a fruitless exercise. Does he agree that, for example, a constituency in the He is absolutely right; it would be better if we did things south that grew because of population changes and on a longer time scale, and towards 2018. That point migration would necessarily have a nudging effect on relates to his amendment 341. His amendment 342 contiguous boundaries and a domino effect all the way would mean that instead of having reviews every five up the country, and that because it is likely that virtually years, we should have them every 10 years. I say to hon. every seat will change every five years during the 20-year Members who are hard and fast in their view that we period that my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield should have a full boundary review, every five years, on (Phil Wilson) mentioned, one’s constituency might move the basis of purely mathematical, arithmetical equations, around the country? [Interruption.] that that would put every single parliamentary seat in doubt every single time. It may not be that every single Chris Bryant: Members on both sides are laughing one is changed every time, but a large number probably because my hon. Friend has of course moved around would be. The danger is that that gives rise to a conflict the country himself, so I will assist by saying that I when an hon. Member knows the seat that they will be know that the people of Wales welcome him back to his fighting at the next general election and they want to get home town. in touch with the voters in that seat not as an MP but as My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that where a candidate. That is likely to lead to a considerable there are significant changes in the population there will number of unfortunate circumstances in the way that not only be effects for one constituency but potentially Parliament behaves. It was difficult enough in the last nudge-on effects for many others, which may move general election, when the Speaker and the courts had from one county council or one borough to another. In to intervene in two cases in London where boundaries part, we have to accept this. Rhondda used to have two had been redrawn and MPs wished to be able to correspond parliamentary seats, Rhondda East and Rhondda West, not as an MP but as a candidate, and the sitting MP and then we moved down to one parliamentary seat objected to that intervention. because the population fell dramatically. I do not believe that the boundaries of parliamentary constituencies in Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab): Does the shadow Wales or anywhere else should be written in stone—of Minister agree that over, say, a 20-year period of four course we have to move with the population flows. Parliaments one community could find itself in four However, if we move forward precisely like this, without different constituencies and have four different MPs, any kind of exemption, one constituency in Wales will not because an MP is deposed but because the constituency represent at least a third of the geographical area of boundaries are being changed to ensure that all the Wales. That would be unacceptable. It would cover arithmetical figures stack up? That breaks the strong several counties, which are unitary authorities in Wales, and important link between the constituency MP and and would include areas that are, and feel themselves to the local electorate. be, virtually in England, and a large part of Wales that is fiercely proud of its Welsh language heritage. That Chris Bryant: Absolutely. Particularly in many rural would be an inappropriate direction in which to move. areas where the difference between reaching the mathematical perfect number and not reaching it might Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): Does my be 1,500 or 3,000 votes, a medium-sized village or small hon. Friend agree with what the women’s institute has town might have to be divided in half, or a river might written? As I am sure all hon. Members know, anyone run across the constituency and new polling districts who dares to suggest that the women’s institute is party might have to be created. A whole series of different political will have their come-uppance, but it has expressed issues might mean that the individual voter ultimately great concern about the effect that the changes will have ends up being less confident about knowing who their on rural communities, because natural geographical political representative is. boundaries will be cut up. The hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing), who knows that I have a great respect for her—I waited Chris Bryant: Tony Blair learned that one should not until she took her seat before referring to her—made really mess with the women’s institute, and I have no several points, one of which related to the fact that we intention of doing so, but my hon. Friend is absolutely should not be redrawing the seats for our own convenience. right. Large parts of her constituency are very rural, She is absolutely right. We should, however, ensure that and chunks of mine are semi-rural—everybody in the the political boundaries for constituencies are for the Rhondda lives within about 200 metres of a farm. convenience of our electors. Our electors do not think Surely the point is that overriding concerns must be able in terms of lines on a map but in terms of political to trump mathematical perfection, not entirely but to a communities, cultural connections and social connections, degree. The Government have already accepted that in and where the roads go and do not go. If one is to bind relation to three constituencies, but it should apply together little bits of geography just because they sort more widely. out a perfect map according to mathematical excellence, My hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton one might assist the convenience of the Boundary (Graham Stringer) has tabled amendment 38, which Commission, but one will not necessarily assist the refers to registration. A lot of Members talked about convenience of voters, who want to know and understand under-registration yesterday afternoon, and the Deputy who their Member of Parliament is—and it is better Leader of the House has just mentioned it. I am glad he that they do. I know that there are split wards, but it accepts that some 3.5 million people are not on the would be better if there were not. register and should be. I make no pretence that we got it 1003 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1004 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Chris Bryant] to spend £100,000 on keeping a swimming pool open or on a really good door-to-door canvas to ensure that right when we were in government. Indeed, some of everybody is registered, they tend to keep the swimming us—particularly one of my hon. Friends, who is probably pool open. Although I fully understand such decisions, about to intervene on me—quite rightly argued aggressively which will be difficult for many councillors in the next in the last Parliament that many people are under- four years, unless one values democracy and spends represented on the register. The danger is that they will money on it, one does not get a proper representative therefore be under-represented in Parliament and their democracy. That is why Labour Members believe that concerns will not be taken on board. amendment 38 is important. Unless the Electoral Commission is satisfied that there is proper registration Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Will my hon. and that proper measures are being taken to ensure full Friend give way? registration of all eligible voters in this country—and for dealing with those who are on the register but Chris Bryant: As I was talking of my hon. Friend, I should not be—the Boundary Commission should not shall give way to him. be able to produce its report. Chris Ruane: My hon. Friend says that we did not do My hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West (Geraint as much as we could have done, and I agree, but we did Davies) tabled amendment 125, which refers to the do some things in the past 13 years. In the Electoral census. Earlier, the Deputy Leader of the House said Administration Act 2006, we examined what electoral that he did not agree with the amendment because the registration officers were doing and measured them in census happened every 10 years, which might have led 26 fields. That process was long and slow, but now we one to believe that there would not be one for 10 years, are beginning to examine what they achieved so that we but of course, one will be held next year. The information can fine-tune the process. However, the current proposals may not be available immediately, but surely it would be are being rushed through. bizarre if we found that the number of those eligible to We also listened to the then Opposition. When they vote in individual areas of the country was dramatically wanted individual registration, we opposed it at first higher than those registered to vote, and that those but then said that because of political balance we would areas were significantly unfairly under-represented in introduce it. We said that it would happen in 2015 and the House because the Government chose to proceed that we would put measures in place to increase registration on only one element. over the five years until then. All that bipartisanship has been shattered by the governing parties for party political Geraint Davies: My amendment would provide for gain and to pursue a little English coup. the Office for National Statistics to conduct an assessment of the number of eligible voters. It would use the The Temporary Chair (Mr Jim Hood): Order. I think register of voters alongside the census and other data that intervention was a bit long. sources to get the best estimate. It might not be perfect, but it would be better than the current suggestion. Chris Bryant: But it was very good, Mr Hood, and spot on. I hope that some coalition Members accept that when we were in government, we tried to co-operate Chris Bryant: Precisely. That is one of the things that on electoral registration. When the hon. Member for the Boundary Commission should consider. Epping Forest spoke for her party on the matter, she did One other issue was mentioned in yesterday’s debate. so very effectively and we tried to co-operate and reach I am sorry to refer to the hon. Member for Epping agreement when we could. We agreed that we would Forest for a third time, but she got rather cross with me move towards individual registration, but I am concerned in yesterday evening’s debate, so I merely wish to respond that the new Government’s message about registration to one of her comments. She said that the point about is, “Yes, we want everybody to register, but it doesn’t the number of Members of Parliament in a particular really matter if you don’t. We’re going to get rid of the area and the casework that they took on was not a fine for somebody who does not send in their form, and matter of substance. Various hon. Friends suggested registering is almost entirely optional.” That is a shame, that some of those who are not eligible to vote often because as I tried to say in a debate that the hon. Lady provide much of the casework in a constituency. secured in Westminster Hall earlier today, we sometimes Consequently, there is an argument about the role of take our democracy for granted all too easily. the Member of Parliament, which should be considered before reaching the precise matter of how the boundaries Tristram Hunt: My hon. Friend is right to point to are drawn. The hon. Lady said that it would be good if the Bill’s partisan nature. Did he hear anything from the we reduced the number of Members of Parliament and Chancellor about allocating extra resources to increasing achieved equalisation of the electorate in each constituency, electoral registration in December, or perhaps for the and that if a problem remained with casework, we wonderful democracy festival that the hon. Member for could give Members of Parliament more staff. Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) talked [Interruption.] I think that the hon. Member for Brecon about? and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) says, “Hear, hear” because he wants more staff to work for him. 3.45 pm I am concerned about the hon. Lady’s view because Chris Bryant: No—I heard exactly the opposite. I the role of a Member of Parliament has completely think that there was a reference to a 7% cut in local changed since the days of Stafford Cripps, and casework authority funding every year for the next four years. My is an essential part of the job. Simply hiving it off to a concern is that, because all too often we take democracy member of staff, without the Member of Parliament’s for granted, when local councillors have to decide whether being directly involved, distances Members of Parliament 1005 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1006 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill from the real life that goes on around them. Simply Field, rh Mr Frank McGovern, Jim replacing Members of Parliament with paid staff is not Fitzpatrick, Jim McGuire, rh Mrs Anne the right route. Flello, Robert McKechin, Ann Flint, rh Caroline McKinnell, Catherine I am keen to press our amendments to a Division. I Flynn, Paul Meacher, rh Mr Michael hope that hon. Members will agree that mathematical Fovargue, Yvonne Meale, Mr Alan excellence is not the only way in which one should Francis, Dr Hywel Mearns, Ian proceed towards creating new boundaries for the House Gapes, Mike Michael, rh Alun for Commons, and that other considerations need to be Gardiner, Barry Miller, Andrew borne in mind. I hope that I can rely on the Committee’s Gilmore, Sheila Mitchell, Austin good sense. Glass, Pat Moon, Mrs Madeleine Goggins, rh Paul Morden, Jessica Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): Goodman, Helen Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) On a point of order, Mr Hood. I should like to press Greatrex, Tom Morris, Grahame M. amendment 38 to a Division. What is the appropriate Green, Kate (Easington) time to move it, if I am allowed so to do? Greenwood, Lilian Mudie, Mr George Griffith, Nia Munn, Meg Gwynne, Andrew Murphy, rh Mr Jim The Temporary Chair (Mr Jim Hood): Now that the Hain, rh Mr Peter Murray, Ian hon. Gentleman has given notice that he wishes to press Hamilton, Mr Fabian Nandy, Lisa his amendment to a Division, I will invite him formerly Hanson, rh Mr David Nash, Pamela to move it when the Division on amendment 127 is over. Harman, rh Ms Harriet Onwurah, Chi Havard, Mr Dai Osborne, Sandra Chris Bryant: Further to that point of order, Mr Hood. Healey, rh John Owen, Albert Does that also apply to amendment 341 or 342? Hendrick, Mark Paisley, Ian Heyes, David Pearce, Teresa The Temporary Chair: Yes, certainly. Hillier, Meg Perkins, Toby Hilling, Julie Phillipson, Bridget Question put, That the amendment be made. Hodge, rh Margaret Pound, Stephen The Committee divided: Ayes 232, Noes 326. Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Hopkins, Kelvin Reed, Mr Jamie Division No. 86] [3.50 pm Howarth, rh Mr George Reeves, Rachel Hunt, Tristram Reynolds, Jonathan AYES Illsley, Mr Eric Riordan, Mrs Linda Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Cooper, Rosie Irranca-Davies, Huw Ritchie, Ms Margaret Alexander, Heidi Cooper, rh Yvette Jamieson, Cathy Robertson, John Ali, Rushanara Corbyn, Jeremy Johnson, rh Alan Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Austin, Ian Crausby, Mr David Johnson, Diana R. Rotheram, Steve Bailey, Mr Adrian Creagh, Mary Jones, Graham Roy, Mr Frank Bain, Mr William Creasy, Stella Jones, Helen Roy, Lindsay Balls, rh Ed Cruddas, Jon Jones, Mr Kevan Ruane, Chris Banks, Gordon Cryer, John Jones, Susan Elan Ruddock, rh Joan Barron, rh Mr Kevin Cunningham, Alex Jowell, rh Tessa Sarwar, Anas Beckett, rh Margaret Cunningham, Mr Jim Joyce, Eric Seabeck, Alison Begg, Miss Anne Cunningham, Tony Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Shannon, Jim Bell, Sir Stuart Curran, Margaret Keeley, Barbara Sharma, Mr Virendra Benn, rh Hilary Dakin, Nic Keen, Alan Sheerman, Mr Barry Benton, Mr Joe Danczuk, Simon Kendall, Liz Sheridan, Jim Betts, Mr Clive Darling, rh Mr Alistair Khan, rh Sadiq Shuker, Gavin Blackman-Woods, Roberta David, Mr Wayne Lammy, rh Mr David Simpson, David Blears, rh Hazel Davidson, Mr Ian Lavery, Ian Skinner, Mr Dennis Blenkinsop, Tom Davies, Geraint Lazarowicz, Mark Slaughter, Mr Andy Blomfield, Paul De Piero, Gloria Leslie, Chris Smith, Angela Blunkett, rh Mr David Denham, rh Mr John Lewis, Mr Ivan Smith, Nick Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Dobbin, Jim Lloyd, Tony Smith, Owen Brown, Lyn Docherty, Thomas Love, Mr Andrew Soulsby, Sir Peter Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Lucas, Caroline Spellar, rh Mr John Brown, Mr Russell Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lucas, Ian Straw, rh Mr Jack Bryant, Chris Doran, Mr Frank Mactaggart, Fiona Stringer, Graham Buck, Ms Karen Dowd, Jim Mahmood, Mr Khalid Stuart, Ms Gisela Burnham, rh Andy Doyle, Gemma Mahmood, Shabana Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Byrne, rh Mr Liam Dromey, Jack Mann, John Tami, Mark Cairns, David Dugher, Michael Marsden, Mr Gordon Thomas, Mr Gareth Campbell, Mr Alan Durkan, Mark McCabe, Steve Thornberry, Emily Campbell, Mr Gregory Eagle, Ms Angela McCarthy, Kerry Trickett, Jon Campbell, Mr Ronnie Eagle, Maria McClymont, Gregg Turner, Karl Caton, Martin Efford, Clive McCrea, Dr William Twigg, Derek Chapman, Mrs Jenny Elliott, Julie McDonagh, Siobhain Twigg, Stephen Clark, Katy Ellman, Mrs Louise McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Umunna, Mr Chuka Clarke, rh Mr Tom Engel, Natascha McDonnell, John Vaz, Valerie Coaker, Vernon Esterson, Bill McFadden, rh Mr Pat Walley, Joan Coffey, Ann Evans, Chris McGovern, Alison Watson, Mr Tom 1007 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1008 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Watts, Mr Dave Wood, Mike Hancock, Mr Mike Menzies, Mark Whitehead, Dr Alan Woodcock, John Hands, Greg Mercer, Patrick Wicks, rh Malcolm Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Harper, Mr Mark Metcalfe, Stephen Williamson, Chris Wright, David Harrington, Richard Miller, Maria Wilson, Phil Wright, Mr Iain Harris, Rebecca Mills, Nigel Wilson, Sammy Tellers for the Ayes: Hart, Simon Milton, Anne Winnick, Mr David Mr David Anderson and Harvey, Nick Mordaunt, Penny Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Mr David Hamilton Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morgan, Nicky Hayes, Mr John Morris, Anne Marie Heald, Mr Oliver Morris, David NOES Heath, Mr David Morris, James Adams, Nigel Crabb, Stephen Hemming, John Mosley, Stephen Afriyie, Adam Crockart, Mike Henderson, Gordon Mowat, David Aldous, Peter Crouch, Tracey Hendry, Charles Mulholland, Greg Andrew, Stuart Davey, Mr Edward Hinds, Damian Mundell, rh David Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Davies, David T. C. Hoban, Mr Mark Murray, Sheryll Bacon, Mr Richard (Monmouth) Hollingbery, George Murrison, Dr Andrew Bagshawe, Ms Louise Davies, Glyn Hollobone, Mr Philip Neill, Robert Baker, Norman Davies, Philip Holloway, Mr Adam Newmark, Mr Brooks Baker, Steve Davis, rh Mr David Hopkins, Kris Newton, Sarah Baldry, Tony de Bois, Nick Horwood, Martin Nokes, Caroline Barclay, Stephen Dinenage, Caroline Howarth, Mr Gerald Norman, Jesse Barker, Gregory Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Howell, John Nuttall, Mr David Barwell, Gavin Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hughes, Simon O’Brien, Mr Stephen Bebb, Guto Dorries, Nadine Huhne, rh Chris Offord, Mr Matthew Beith, rh Sir Alan Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Ollerenshaw, Eric Bellingham, Mr Henry Drax, Richard Huppert, Dr Julian Opperman, Guy Benyon, Richard Duddridge, James Hurd, Mr Nick Ottaway, Richard Beresford, Sir Paul Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jackson, Mr Stewart Paice, Mr James Berry, Jake Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Javid, Sajid Parish, Neil Bingham, Andrew Dunne, Mr Philip Jenkin, Mr Bernard Patel, Priti Binley, Mr Brian Ellis, Michael Johnson, Gareth Paterson, rh Mr Owen Birtwistle, Gordon Ellison, Jane Johnson, Joseph Pawsey, Mark Blackman, Bob Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Andrew Penning, Mike Blackwood, Nicola Eustice, George Jones, Mr David Penrose, John Blunt, Mr Crispin Evans, Graham Jones, Mr Marcus Percy, Andrew Boles, Nick Evans, Jonathan Kawczynski, Daniel Perry, Claire Bone, Mr Peter Evennett, Mr David Kelly, Chris Phillips, Stephen Bottomley, Peter Fabricant, Michael Kirby, Simon Pincher, Christopher Bradley, Karen Fallon, Michael Knight, rh Mr Greg Poulter, Dr Daniel Brady, Mr Graham Farron, Tim Kwarteng, Kwasi Prisk, Mr Mark Brake, Tom Featherstone, Lynne Laing, Mrs Eleanor Pritchard, Mark Bray, Angie Field, Mr Mark Lamb, Norman Pugh, Dr John Brazier, Mr Julian Foster, Mr Don Lancaster, Mark Raab, Mr Dominic Bridgen, Andrew Fox,rhDrLiam Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Randall, rh Mr John Brine, Mr Steve Francois, rh Mr Mark Latham, Pauline Reckless, Mark Brokenshire, James Freeman, George Laws, rh Mr David Redwood, rh Mr John Brooke, Annette Fullbrook, Lorraine Lee, Jessica Rees-Mogg, Jacob Browne, Mr Jeremy Fuller, Richard Lee, Dr Phillip Reevell, Simon Bruce, Fiona Garnier, Mr Edward Leech, Mr John Reid, Mr Alan Bruce, rh Malcolm Garnier, Mark Lefroy, Jeremy Robathan, Mr Andrew Buckland, Mr Robert Gauke, Mr David Leslie, Charlotte Robertson, Hugh Burley, Mr Aidan George, Andrew Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Robertson, Mr Laurence Burns, Conor Gibb, Mr Nick Lewis, Brandon Rogerson, Dan Burns, Mr Simon Gilbert, Stephen Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rosindell, Andrew Burrowes, Mr David Glen, John Lilley, rh Mr Peter Rudd, Amber Burstow, Paul Goldsmith, Zac Lloyd, Stephen Ruffley, Mr David Burt, Alistair Goodwill, Mr Robert Long, Naomi Russell, Bob Byles, Dan Gove, rh Michael Lopresti, Jack Rutley, David Cairns, Alun Graham, Richard Lord, Jonathan Sanders, Mr Adrian Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Gray, Mr James Loughton, Tim Sandys, Laura Carmichael, Mr Alistair Grayling, rh Chris Luff, Peter Scott, Mr Lee Carmichael, Neil Green, Damian Lumley, Karen Selous, Andrew Carswell, Mr Douglas Greening, Justine Macleod, Mary Shapps, rh Grant Chishti, Rehman Grieve, rh Mr Dominic MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Sharma, Alok Chope, Mr Christopher Griffiths, Andrew Main, Mrs Anne Shelbrooke, Alec Clappison, Mr James Gummer, Ben Maynard, Paul Simmonds, Mark Clark, rh Greg Gyimah, Mr Sam McCartney, Jason Simpson, Mr Keith Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Halfon, Robert McCartney, Karl Skidmore, Chris Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hames, Duncan McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Miss Chloe Collins, Damian Hammond, rh Mr Philip McPartland, Stephen Smith, Henry Colvile, Oliver Hancock, Matthew McVey, Esther Smith, Julian 1009 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1010 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Smith, Sir Robert Walker, Mr Charles De Piero, Gloria Lazarowicz, Mark Soames, Nicholas Walker, Mr Robin Dobbin, Jim Leslie, Chris Soubry, Anna Wallace, Mr Ben Docherty, Thomas Lewis, Mr Ivan Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Ward, Mr David Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Lloyd, Tony Spencer, Mr Mark Watkinson, Angela Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Long, Naomi Stanley, rh Sir John Weatherley, Mike Doran, Mr Frank Love, Mr Andrew Stephenson, Andrew Webb, Steve Dowd, Jim Lucas, Caroline Stevenson, John Weir, Mr Mike Doyle, Gemma Lucas, Ian Stewart, Iain Wharton, James Dromey, Jack Mactaggart, Fiona Stewart, Rory Wheeler, Heather Dugher, Michael Mahmood, Mr Khalid Streeter, Mr Gary White, Chris Durkan, Mark Mahmood, Shabana Stride, Mel Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Eagle, Ms Angela Mann, John Stuart, Mr Graham Whittaker, Craig Eagle, Maria Marsden, Mr Gordon Stunell, Andrew Whittingdale, Mr John Efford, Clive McCabe, Steve Sturdy, Julian Wiggin, Bill Elliott, Julie McCarthy, Kerry Swales, Ian Willetts, rh Mr David Ellman, Mrs Louise McClymont, Gregg Swayne, Mr Desmond Williams, Hywel Engel, Natascha McCrea, Dr William Swinson, Jo Williams, Mr Mark Esterson, Bill McDonagh, Siobhain Swire, Mr Hugo Williams, Roger Evans, Chris McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Syms, Mr Robert Williams, Stephen Field, Mr Mark McDonnell, John Teather, Sarah Williamson, Gavin Fitzpatrick, Jim McFadden, rh Mr Pat Thurso, John Willott, Jenny Flello, Robert McGovern, Alison Timpson, Mr Edward Wilson, Mr Rob Flint, rh Caroline McGovern, Jim Tomlinson, Justin Wishart, Pete Flynn, Paul McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Tredinnick, David Wright, Jeremy Fovargue, Yvonne McKechin, Ann Truss, Elizabeth Wright, Simon Francis, Dr Hywel McKinnell, Catherine Turner, Mr Andrew Yeo, Mr Tim Gapes, Mike Meacher, rh Mr Michael Tyrie, Mr Andrew Young, rh Sir George Gardiner, Barry Meale, Mr Alan Uppal, Paul Zahawi, Nadhim George, Andrew Mearns, Ian Vaizey, Mr Edward Tellers for the Noes: Gilmore, Sheila Michael, rh Alun Vickers, Martin Mark Hunter and Glass, Pat Miller, Andrew Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Mr Shailesh Vara Glindon, Mrs Mary Mitchell, Austin Goggins, rh Paul Moon, Mrs Madeleine Goodman, Helen Morden, Jessica Question accordingly negatived. Greatrex, Tom Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Amendment proposed: 342, page 6, line 36, leave out Green, Kate Morris, Grahame M. “fifth” and insert “tenth”.—(Greg Mulholland.) Greenwood, Lilian (Easington) Griffith, Nia Mudie, Mr George Question put, That the amendment be made. Gwynne, Andrew Mulholland, Greg The Committee divided: Ayes 237, Noes 319. Hain, rh Mr Peter Munn, Meg Hamilton, Mr David Murphy, rh Mr Jim Division No. 87] [4.5 pm Hamilton, Mr Fabian Murray, Ian Hanson, rh Mr David Nandy, Lisa AYES Harman, rh Ms Harriet Nash, Pamela Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Byrne, rh Mr Liam Havard, Mr Dai Onwurah, Chi Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Cairns, David Healey, rh John Osborne, Sandra Alexander, Heidi Campbell, Mr Alan Hendrick, Mark Owen, Albert Ali, Rushanara Campbell, Mr Ronnie Heyes, David Pearce, Teresa Anderson, Mr David Caton, Martin Hillier, Meg Perkins, Toby Austin, Ian Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hilling, Julie Phillipson, Bridget Bailey, Mr Adrian Clark, Katy Hodge, rh Margaret Pound, Stephen Bain, Mr William Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Balls, rh Ed Coaker, Vernon Hopkins, Kelvin Reed, Mr Jamie Banks, Gordon Coffey, Ann Howarth, rh Mr George Reynolds, Jonathan Barron, rh Mr Kevin Cooper, Rosie Hunt, Tristram Riordan, Mrs Linda Beckett, rh Margaret Cooper, rh Yvette Illsley, Mr Eric Ritchie, Ms Margaret Begg, Miss Anne Corbyn, Jeremy Irranca-Davies, Huw Robertson, John Benn, rh Hilary Crausby, Mr David Jamieson, Cathy Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Benton, Mr Joe Creagh, Mary Johnson, rh Alan Rotheram, Steve Betts, Mr Clive Creasy, Stella Johnson, Diana R. Roy, Mr Frank Blackman-Woods, Roberta Cruddas, Jon Jones, Graham Roy, Lindsay Blears, rh Hazel Cryer, John Jones, Helen Ruane, Chris Blenkinsop, Tom Cunningham, Alex Jones, Mr Kevan Ruddock, rh Joan Blomfield, Paul Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Susan Elan Sarwar, Anas Blunkett, rh Mr David Cunningham, Tony Jowell, rh Tessa Seabeck, Alison Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Curran, Margaret Joyce, Eric Shannon, Jim Brown, Lyn Dakin, Nic Keeley, Barbara Sharma, Mr Virendra Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Danczuk, Simon Keen, Alan Sheerman, Mr Barry Brown, Mr Russell Darling, rh Mr Alistair Kendall, Liz Sheridan, Jim Bryant, Chris David, Mr Wayne Khan, rh Sadiq Shuker, Gavin Buck, Ms Karen Davidson, Mr Ian Lammy, rh Mr David Simpson, David Burnham, rh Andy Davies, Geraint Lavery, Ian Skinner, Mr Dennis 1011 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1012 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Slaughter, Mr Andy Watts, Mr Dave Garnier, Mr Edward Lee, Jessica Smith, Angela Weir, Mr Mike Garnier, Mark Lee, Dr Phillip Smith, Nick Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Gauke, Mr David Leech, Mr John Smith, Owen Whitehead, Dr Alan Gibb, Mr Nick Lefroy, Jeremy Soulsby, Sir Peter Wicks, rh Malcolm Gilbert, Stephen Leigh, Mr Edward Spellar, rh Mr John Williams, Hywel Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Leslie, Charlotte Straw, rh Mr Jack Williamson, Chris Glen, John Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Stuart, Ms Gisela Wilson, Phil Goldsmith, Zac Lewis, Brandon Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Wilson, Sammy Goodwill, Mr Robert Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Tami, Mark Winnick, Mr David Gove, rh Michael Lilley, rh Mr Peter Thomas, Mr Gareth Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Graham, Richard Lloyd, Stephen Thornberry, Emily Wishart, Pete Gray, Mr James Lopresti, Jack Thurso, John Wood, Mike Grayling, rh Chris Lord, Jonathan Trickett, Jon Woodcock, John Green, Damian Loughton, Tim Greening, Justine Luff, Peter Turner, Karl Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Twigg, Derek Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Lumley, Karen Wright, David Twigg, Stephen Griffiths, Andrew Macleod, Mary Wright, Mr Iain Umunna, Mr Chuka Gummer, Ben Main, Mrs Anne Vaz, Valerie Tellers for the Ayes: Gyimah, Mr Sam Maynard, Paul Walley, Joan Graham Stringer and Halfon, Robert McCartney, Jason Watson, Mr Tom Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil Hames, Duncan McCartney, Karl Hammond, rh Mr Philip McIntosh, Miss Anne NOES Hancock, Matthew McPartland, Stephen Hancock, Mr Mike McVey, Esther Adams, Nigel Byles, Dan Hands, Greg Menzies, Mark Afriyie, Adam Cairns, Alun Harper, Mr Mark Mercer, Patrick Aldous, Peter Carmichael, Mr Alistair Harrington, Richard Metcalfe, Stephen Andrew, Stuart Carmichael, Neil Harris, Rebecca Miller, Maria Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Carswell, Mr Douglas Hart, Simon Mills, Nigel Bacon, Mr Richard Chishti, Rehman Harvey, Nick Milton, Anne Bagshawe, Ms Louise Chope, Mr Christopher Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Moore, rh Michael Baker, Norman Clappison, Mr James Hayes, Mr John Mordaunt, Penny Baker, Steve Clark, rh Greg Heald, Mr Oliver Morgan, Nicky Baldry, Tony Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Heath, Mr David Morris, Anne Marie Baldwin, Harriett Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hemming, John Morris, David Barclay, Stephen Collins, Damian Henderson, Gordon Morris, James Barker, Gregory Colvile, Oliver Hendry, Charles Mosley, Stephen Barwell, Gavin Crabb, Stephen Herbert, rh Nick Mowat, David Bebb, Guto Crockart, Mike Hinds, Damian Mundell, rh David Beith, rh Sir Alan Crouch, Tracey Hoban, Mr Mark Munt, Tessa Bellingham, Mr Henry Davey, Mr Edward Hollingbery, George Murray, Sheryll Benyon, Richard Davies, David T. C. Hollobone, Mr Philip Murrison, Dr Andrew Beresford, Sir Paul (Monmouth) Holloway, Mr Adam Neill, Robert Berry, Jake Davies, Glyn Hopkins, Kris Newmark, Mr Brooks Bingham, Andrew Davis, rh Mr David Horwood, Martin Newton, Sarah Binley, Mr Brian de Bois, Nick Howarth, Mr Gerald Nokes, Caroline Birtwistle, Gordon Dinenage, Caroline Howell, John Norman, Jesse Blackman, Bob Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hughes, Simon Nuttall, Mr David Blackwood, Nicola Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Huhne, rh Chris O’Brien, Mr Stephen Blunt, Mr Crispin Dorries, Nadine Hunter, Mark Offord, Mr Matthew Boles, Nick Doyle-Price, Jackie Huppert, Dr Julian Ollerenshaw, Eric Bone, Mr Peter Drax, Richard Hurd, Mr Nick Opperman, Guy Bottomley, Peter Duddridge, James Jackson, Mr Stewart Ottaway, Richard Bradley, Karen Duncan, rh Mr Alan Javid, Sajid Paice, Mr James Brady, Mr Graham Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jenkin, Mr Bernard Parish, Neil Brake, Tom Dunne, Mr Philip Johnson, Gareth Patel, Priti Bray, Angie Ellis, Michael Johnson, Joseph Paterson, rh Mr Owen Brazier, Mr Julian Ellison, Jane Jones, Andrew Pawsey, Mark Bridgen, Andrew Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Mr David Penning, Mike Brine, Mr Steve Eustice, George Jones, Mr Marcus Penrose, John Brokenshire, James Evans, Graham Kawczynski, Daniel Percy, Andrew Brooke, Annette Evans, Jonathan Kelly, Chris Perry, Claire Browne, Mr Jeremy Evennett, Mr David Kirby, Simon Phillips, Stephen Bruce, Fiona Fabricant, Michael Knight, rh Mr Greg Pincher, Christopher Bruce, rh Malcolm Farron, Tim Kwarteng, Kwasi Poulter, Dr Daniel Buckland, Mr Robert Featherstone, Lynne Laing, Mrs Eleanor Prisk, Mr Mark Burley, Mr Aidan Foster, Mr Don Lamb, Norman Pritchard, Mark Burns, Conor Fox,rhDrLiam Lancaster, Mark Pugh, Dr John Burns, Mr Simon Francois, rh Mr Mark Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Raab, Mr Dominic Burrowes, Mr David Freeman, George Latham, Pauline Randall, rh Mr John Burstow, Paul Fullbrook, Lorraine Laws, rh Mr David Reckless, Mark Burt, Alistair Fuller, Richard Leadsom, Andrea Redwood, rh Mr John 1013 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1014 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Rees-Mogg, Jacob Swayne, Mr Desmond Brown, Lyn Gwynne, Andrew Reevell, Simon Swinson, Jo Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hain, rh Mr Peter Reid, Mr Alan Swire, Mr Hugo Brown, Mr Russell Hamilton, Mr Fabian Robathan, Mr Andrew Syms, Mr Robert Bryant, Chris Hanson, rh Mr David Robertson, Hugh Teather, Sarah Buck, Ms Karen Harman, rh Ms Harriet Robertson, Mr Laurence Timpson, Mr Edward Burnham, rh Andy Havard, Mr Dai Rogerson, Dan Tomlinson, Justin Byrne, rh Mr Liam Healey, rh John Rosindell, Andrew Tredinnick, David Cairns, David Hendrick, Mark Rudd, Amber Truss, Elizabeth Campbell, Mr Alan Heyes, David Ruffley, Mr David Turner, Mr Andrew Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hillier, Meg Russell, Bob Uppal, Paul Caton, Martin Hilling, Julie Rutley, David Vaizey, Mr Edward Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hodge, rh Margaret Sanders, Mr Adrian Vickers, Martin Clark, Katy Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Sandys, Laura Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hoey, Kate Scott, Mr Lee Walker, Mr Charles Coaker, Vernon Hopkins, Kelvin Selous, Andrew Walker, Mr Robin Coffey, Ann Howarth, rh Mr George Shapps, rh Grant Wallace, Mr Ben Connarty, Michael Hunt, Tristram Sharma, Alok Walter, Mr Robert Cooper, Rosie Irranca-Davies, Huw Shelbrooke, Alec Ward, Mr David Cooper, rh Yvette Jamieson, Cathy Shepherd, Mr Richard Watkinson, Angela Corbyn, Jeremy Johnson, Diana R. Simmonds, Mark Weatherley, Mike Crausby, Mr David Jones, Graham Simpson, Mr Keith Webb, Steve Creagh, Mary Jones, Helen Skidmore, Chris Wharton, James Creasy, Stella Jones, Mr Kevan Smith, Miss Chloe Wheeler, Heather Cruddas, Jon Jones, Susan Elan Smith, Henry White, Chris Cryer, John Jowell, rh Tessa Smith, Julian Whittaker, Craig Cunningham, Alex Joyce, Eric Smith, Sir Robert Whittingdale, Mr John Cunningham, Mr Jim Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Soames, Nicholas Wiggin, Bill Cunningham, Tony Keeley, Barbara Soubry, Anna Willetts, rh Mr David Curran, Margaret Keen, Alan Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Williams, Roger Dakin, Nic Kendall, Liz Spencer, Mr Mark Williams, Stephen Danczuk, Simon Khan, rh Sadiq Stanley, rh Sir John Williamson, Gavin Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lammy, rh Mr David Stephenson, Andrew Willott, Jenny David, Mr Wayne Lavery, Ian Stevenson, John Wilson, Mr Rob Davidson, Mr Ian Lazarowicz, Mark Stewart, Iain Wright, Simon Davies, Geraint Leslie, Chris De Piero, Gloria Lewis, Mr Ivan Stewart, Rory Yeo, Mr Tim Streeter, Mr Gary Dobbin, Jim Lloyd, Tony Young, rh Sir George Stride, Mel Docherty, Thomas Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Zahawi, Nadhim Stuart, Mr Graham Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Love, Mr Andrew Stunell, Andrew Tellers for the Noes: Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lucas, Caroline Sturdy, Julian Jeremy Wright and Doran, Mr Frank Lucas, Ian Swales, Ian Mr Shailesh Vara Dowd, Jim Mactaggart, Fiona Doyle, Gemma Mahmood, Mr Khalid Question accordingly negatived. Dromey, Jack Mahmood, Shabana Dugher, Michael Mann, John Amendment proposed: 38, page 6, line 36, at end Durkan, Mark Marsden, Mr Gordon insert— Eagle, Ms Angela McCabe, Steve Eagle, Maria McCarthy, Kerry ‘(3A) After subsection (2) there is inserted— Efford, Clive McClymont, Gregg (2AA) The boundary review due to be completed by the date Elliott, Julie McCrea, Dr William set out in subsection (2)(a) above shall not begin until both Ellman, Mrs Louise McDonagh, Siobhain Houses of Parliament have approved a report from the Electoral Engel, Natascha McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Commission certifying that in its opinion sufficient measures Esterson, Bill McDonnell, John have been taken to provide for the registration of eligible Evans, Chris McFadden, rh Mr Pat voters.”.’.—(Graham Stringer.) Farrelly, Paul McGovern, Alison Question put, That the amendment be made. Fitzpatrick, Jim McGovern, Jim Flello, Robert McGuire, rh Mrs Anne The Committee divided: Ayes 231, Noes 328. Flint, rh Caroline McKechin, Ann Division No. 88] [4.20 pm Flynn, Paul McKinnell, Catherine Fovargue, Yvonne Meacher, rh Mr Michael AYES Francis, Dr Hywel Meale, Mr Alan Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Begg, Miss Anne Gapes, Mike Mearns, Ian Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Benn, rh Hilary Gardiner, Barry Michael, rh Alun Alexander, Heidi Benton, Mr Joe Gilmore, Sheila Miller, Andrew Ali, Rushanara Betts, Mr Clive Glass, Pat Mitchell, Austin Austin, Ian Blackman-Woods, Roberta Glindon, Mrs Mary Moon, Mrs Madeleine Bailey, Mr Adrian Blears, rh Hazel Goggins, rh Paul Morden, Jessica Bain, Mr William Blenkinsop, Tom Goodman, Helen Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Balls, rh Ed Blomfield, Paul Greatrex, Tom Morris, Grahame M. Banks, Gordon Blunkett, rh Mr David Green, Kate (Easington) Barron, rh Mr Kevin Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Greenwood, Lilian Mudie, Mr George Beckett, rh Margaret Brennan, Kevin Griffith, Nia Munn, Meg 1015 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1016 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Murphy, rh Mr Jim Smith, Owen Davis, rh Mr David Hopkins, Kris Murray, Ian Soulsby, Sir Peter de Bois, Nick Horwood, Martin Nandy, Lisa Spellar, rh Mr John Dinenage, Caroline Howarth, Mr Gerald Nash, Pamela Straw, rh Mr Jack Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Howell, John Onwurah, Chi Stringer, Graham Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hughes, Simon Osborne, Sandra Stuart, Ms Gisela Dorries, Nadine Huhne, rh Chris Owen, Albert Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Paisley, Ian Tami, Mark Drax, Richard Huppert, Dr Julian Pearce, Teresa Thomas, Mr Gareth Duddridge, James Hurd, Mr Nick Perkins, Toby Thornberry, Emily Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jackson, Mr Stewart Phillipson, Bridget Trickett, Jon Dunne, Mr Philip Javid, Sajid Pound, Stephen Turner, Karl Ellis, Michael Jenkin, Mr Bernard Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Twigg, Derek Ellison, Jane Johnson, Gareth Reed, Mr Jamie Twigg, Stephen Ellwood, Mr Tobias Johnson, Joseph Reynolds, Jonathan Umunna, Mr Chuka Eustice, George Jones, Andrew Riordan, Mrs Linda Vaz, Valerie Evans, Graham Jones, Mr David Robertson, John Walley, Joan Evans, Jonathan Jones, Mr Marcus Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Watson, Mr Tom Evennett, Mr David Kawczynski, Daniel Rotheram, Steve Watts, Mr Dave Fabricant, Michael Kelly, Chris Roy, Mr Frank Whitehead, Dr Alan Fallon, Michael Kirby, Simon Roy, Lindsay Wicks, rh Malcolm Farron, Tim Knight, rh Mr Greg Ruane, Chris Williamson, Chris Featherstone, Lynne Kwarteng, Kwasi Ruddock, rh Joan Wilson, Phil Field, Mr Mark Laing, Mrs Eleanor Sarwar, Anas Wilson, Sammy Foster, Mr Don Lancaster, Mark Seabeck, Alison Winnick, Mr David Francois, rh Mr Mark Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Shannon, Jim Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Freeman, George Latham, Pauline Sharma, Mr Virendra Wood, Mike Fullbrook, Lorraine Laws, rh Mr David Sheerman, Mr Barry Woodcock, John Fuller, Richard Leadsom, Andrea Garnier, Mr Edward Lee, Jessica Sheridan, Jim Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Shuker, Gavin Garnier, Mark Lee, Dr Phillip Wright, David Simpson, David Gauke, Mr David Leech, Mr John Wright, Mr Iain Skinner, Mr Dennis George, Andrew Lefroy, Jeremy Slaughter, Mr Andy Tellers for the Ayes: Gibb, Mr Nick Leigh, Mr Edward Smith, Angela Mr David Anderson and Gilbert, Stephen Leslie, Charlotte Smith, Nick Mr David Hamilton Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Glen, John Lewis, Brandon NOES Goldsmith, Zac Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Goodwill, Mr Robert Lilley, rh Mr Peter Adams, Nigel Bridgen, Andrew Gove, rh Michael Lloyd, Stephen Afriyie, Adam Brine, Mr Steve Graham, Richard Long, Naomi Aldous, Peter Brokenshire, James Gray, Mr James Lopresti, Jack Andrew, Stuart Brooke, Annette Grayling, rh Chris Lord, Jonathan Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Browne, Mr Jeremy Green, Damian Loughton, Tim Bacon, Mr Richard Bruce, Fiona Greening, Justine Luff, Peter Bagshawe, Ms Louise Bruce, rh Malcolm Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Lumley, Karen Baker, Norman Buckland, Mr Robert Griffiths, Andrew Macleod, Mary Baker, Steve Burley, Mr Aidan Gummer, Ben MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Baldry, Tony Burns, Conor Gyimah, Mr Sam Main, Mrs Anne Baldwin, Harriett Burns, Mr Simon Halfon, Robert May, rh Mrs Theresa Barclay, Stephen Burrowes, Mr David Hames, Duncan Maynard, Paul Barker, Gregory Burstow, Paul Hammond, rh Mr Philip McCartney, Jason Barwell, Gavin Burt, Alistair Hancock, Matthew McCartney, Karl Bebb, Guto Byles, Dan Hancock, Mr Mike McIntosh, Miss Anne Beith, rh Sir Alan Cairns, Alun Hands, Greg McPartland, Stephen Bellingham, Mr Henry Carmichael, Mr Alistair Harper, Mr Mark McVey, Esther Benyon, Richard Carmichael, Neil Harrington, Richard Menzies, Mark Beresford, Sir Paul Carswell, Mr Douglas Harris, Rebecca Mercer, Patrick Berry, Jake Chishti, Rehman Hart, Simon Metcalfe, Stephen Bingham, Andrew Chope, Mr Christopher Harvey, Nick Miller, Maria Binley, Mr Brian Clappison, Mr James Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mills, Nigel Birtwistle, Gordon Clark, rh Greg Hayes, Mr John Milton, Anne Blackman, Bob Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Heald, Mr Oliver Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Blackwood, Nicola Coffey, Dr Thérèse Heath, Mr David Mordaunt, Penny Blunt, Mr Crispin Collins, Damian Hemming, John Morgan, Nicky Boles, Nick Colvile, Oliver Henderson, Gordon Morris, Anne Marie Bone, Mr Peter Crabb, Stephen Hendry, Charles Morris, David Bottomley, Peter Crockart, Mike Herbert, rh Nick Morris, James Bradley, Karen Crouch, Tracey Hinds, Damian Mosley, Stephen Brady, Mr Graham Davey, Mr Edward Hoban, Mr Mark Mowat, David Brake, Tom Davies, David T. C. Hollingbery, George Mulholland, Greg Bray, Angie (Monmouth) Hollobone, Mr Philip Mundell, rh David Brazier, Mr Julian Davies, Glyn Holloway, Mr Adam Munt, Tessa 1017 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1018 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Murray, Sheryll Stanley, rh Sir John This amendment has been tabled in the names of Murrison, Dr Andrew Stephenson, Andrew members of the Select Committee on Political and Neill, Robert Stevenson, John Constitutional Reform. The Chairman of the Select Newmark, Mr Brooks Stewart, Iain Committee, the hon. Member for Nottingham North Newton, Sarah Stewart, Rory (Mr Allen), is sadly unable to be in here this afternoon Nokes, Caroline Streeter, Mr Gary and so I have undertaken to move the amendment on Norman, Jesse Stride, Mel Nuttall, Mr David Stuart, Mr Graham behalf of his Committee. O’Brien, Mr Stephen Stunell, Andrew The Select Committee, as the Committee well knows, Offord, Mr Matthew Sturdy, Julian carried out a necessarily brief and swift but in-depth Ollerenshaw, Eric Swales, Ian consideration of the Bill. In order to try to be helpful to Opperman, Guy Swayne, Mr Desmond the House and the Minister, we tabled several amendments Ottaway, Richard Swinson, Jo that we believed ought to be considered and that we Parish, Neil Swire, Mr Hugo hope will improve the Bill. The purpose of amendment 234 Patel, Priti Syms, Mr Robert is to reflect paragraph 139 of the Select Committee’s Paterson, rh Mr Owen Teather, Sarah recently published report, which states that Pawsey, Mark Thurso, John Penning, Mike Timpson, Mr Edward “the power of the Executive to depart from the recommendations of an independent statutory body should have clear statutory Penrose, John Tomlinson, Justin limits to prevent abuse for partisan advantage.” Percy, Andrew Tredinnick, David Perry, Claire Truss, Elizabeth I am sure the Committee will agree that that is a matter Phillips, Stephen Turner, Mr Andrew that ought to be drawn to the attention of the Minister Pincher, Christopher Uppal, Paul and of hon. Members. Poulter, Dr Daniel Vaizey, Mr Edward I ask the Minister where the justification lies for the Prisk, Mr Mark Vara, Mr Shailesh Government’s retaining such a wide-ranging power to Pritchard, Mark Vickers, Martin depart from the Boundary Commissions’recommendations. Pugh, Dr John Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Although I would assert that I have every confidence—as Raab, Mr Dominic Walker, Mr Charles does the Select Committee—that the current Government Randall, rh Mr John Walker, Mr Robin would always act in this matter in an honourable, Reckless, Mark Wallace, Mr Ben Redwood, rh Mr John straightforward and democratic way, may I nevertheless Walter, Mr Robert ask the Minister on behalf of the Select Committee Rees-Mogg, Jacob Ward, Mr David Reevell, Simon what safeguards exist against any future Government’s Watkinson, Angela misusing such a power to their partisan advantage. It Reid, Mr Alan Weatherley, Mike Robathan, Mr Andrew would be helpful if the Minister would consider those Webb, Steve Robertson, Hugh questions, and I am sure that the Committee will be Weir, Mr Mike Robertson, Mr Laurence eager to know the answers. Wharton, James Rogerson, Dan Wheeler, Heather Rosindell, Andrew Chris Bryant: First, let me briefly comment on the Rudd, Amber White, Chris fact that before you took the Chair, Mr Hoyle, we had a Ruffley, Mr David Whiteford, Dr Eilidh former miner in the Chair and two Tellers who were Russell, Bob Whittaker, Craig also former miners, so, as the MP for the Rhondda I felt Whittingdale, Mr John Rutley, David quite at home. But that has absolutely nothing to do Wiggin, Bill Sanders, Mr Adrian with the amendment, I am afraid. Sandys, Laura Willetts, rh Mr David Scott, Mr Lee Williams, Hywel The amendment has been charmingly moved by the Selous, Andrew Williams, Mr Mark hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing), who is Shapps, rh Grant Williams, Roger absolutely right. This is an issue that I have tried to raise Sharma, Alok Williams, Stephen on several occasions— Shelbrooke, Alec Williamson, Gavin Shepherd, Mr Richard Willott, Jenny The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Simmonds, Mark Wilson, Mr Rob Harper): Not so charmingly. Simpson, Mr Keith Wishart, Pete Skidmore, Chris Wright, Simon Chris Bryant: The Minister says that not so charmingly Smith, Miss Chloe Yeo, Mr Tim himself, so the favour goes back to him. Smith, Henry Young, rh Sir George Under the clause, new subsection (5A) would read: Smith, Julian Zahawi, Nadhim Smith, Sir Robert “As soon as may be after the submission of all four reports Soames, Nicholas Tellers for the Noes: under subsection (1) above that are required by subsection (2) Soubry, Anna Jeremy Wright and above to be submitted before a particular date, the Secretary of State shall lay before Parliament the draft of an Order in Council Spencer, Mr Mark Mark Hunter for giving effect, with or without modifications, to the recommendations contained in them.” Question accordingly negatived. So the Boundary Commission will bring forth its report, there will be no public inquiry and the Minister will Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): I beg to then bring forward the boundaries with or without move amendment 234, page 7, line 17, at end insert— modifications. It is the phrase “with or without modifications” that I have difficulty with, and clearly ‘(5AA) The draft of an Order in Council laid under the Select Committee does too. subsection (5A) above may only give effect to the recommendations contained in all four reports under subsection The hon. Lady mentioned that her Committee had to (1) above with modifications, where those modifications have do its business very swiftly. Indeed, I think it had only been made with the agreement of the Boundary Commissions.’. five days in which to undertake a whole inquiry. That is 1019 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1020 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Chris Bryant] have done their work—for example, public inquiries, where the public can have their say on the Boundary one reason why I believe the Bill is being taken through Commissions’proposals. Where that does not happen—that with undue haste. A substantial number of amendments is the intention of the Bill, although it is something that have been tabled and will be considered on Monday, but we shall return to later—it is important that there is a we already know that some of them are inaccurate and bind on Ministers, so that they are not entirely free to will be modified when the Government bring forward dream up any kind of modification that they might territorial statutory instruments in relation to Wales, want; otherwise, strictly speaking in law, I guess that Northern Ireland and Scotland. I very much hope that Ministers would be perfectly at liberty, if they felt that the Minister will enlighten us as to whether those statutory the boundary commission had got something slightly instruments will be subject to the affirmative or negative wrong and representations were made to Ministers, to procedure. [Interruption.] That is not what will happen make such modifications as they thought fit. on Monday because the measures are not going to be debated next Monday at all, contrary to what the Deputy Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): Leader of the House has just said from a sedentary I do not know whether my hon. Friend is familiar with position. the situation in the United States, where there is no boundary commission and state legislators draw up in a The Government believe that we should retain in partisan, political way each state’s congressional districts. present legislation the phrase “with or without Does he agree that we are starting down a slippery slope modifications”. That is a pretty broad power. and that we will end up with a partisan political set of Mr Syms: With previous boundary reviews, there redistricting—to use the American phrase—if the boundary have sometimes been attempts at judicial review of commission’s authority is not protected? elements of what the Boundary Commission has done. Chris Bryant: That will happen not just if we do not Most of them have been rejected, but we have to consider have the boundary commission’s public inquiry process, that that is a possibility and that minor modification but if this element of the Bill remains without the might be required—or does the hon. Gentleman think amendment. My hon. Friend is absolutely right. In the that will not happen? United States of America, because there is a redrawing each time, there are many instances where the incumbents Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman makes an important effectively draw boundaries to protect themselves. Therefore, point about the due process that needs to be gone two Hispanic communities that might be thought to through. I believe that we need a due process in relation vote Democrat could be linked, because boundaries to the Boundary Commission, because it might proceed must be contiguous, by a single side of a road, thus incorrectly according to the rules that are laid down for creating bizarrely shaped constituencies. That is why, as it, it might proceed in a partisan manner or it might not I am sure hon. Members know, one of the congressional consider all the factors that need to be considered. That districts in Massachusetts that was drawn up by Governor is why we have heretofore always had a system of public Elbridge Gerry in the 19th century was shaped like a inquiry, and not just written reports being sent in. That salamander—hence the term “gerrymander”. In fact, it is essential for there to be utter confidence in the looked more like an eagle than a salamander. process that the commission goes through. He is absolutely right that there is also, sometimes, a process of judicial This provision, as constructed in the Bill, will specifically review. I suspect that if the Government push through allow Ministers to gerrymander. It is entirely partisan. the Bill in the partisan way that they are doing, without It will allow Ministers—indeed, it encourages them—to [Interruption.] any provision for public inquiry, the likelihood of a be partisan. The Parliamentary Secretary, judicial review being sought in many constituencies in Cabinet Office, the hon. Member for Forest of Dean the land will be very high indeed. (Mr Harper), says from a sedentary position what I have already said. He says, “We aren’t changing anything.” The hon. Gentleman might say that that is a good He says, as I have said, that the provision is in the reason why the Minister needs even more power to draw existing legislation—it is—but if he would just listen to constituency boundaries as he thinks fit. Unless the the end of the paragraph, he would understand and Government can be shifted from this view—whether learn that, in fact, the difference between the legislation that happens in the House or in the other House—we that he is advancing and the existing legislation is that shall almost inexorably end up with no due process, he will allow no due process. There will be no public other than the recourse that people might have to the inquiries. Consequently, I do not think that the electorate courts. will have confidence in the way the commission draws The Minister will probably tell us that the Government up boundaries and, thereafter, in the way that Ministers need this power because apostrophes and commas are are allowed by their legislation to make such modifications sometimes put in the wrong place and there are inadvertent as they see fit. errors. That is why the amendment, which was tabled by The Minister may be able to satisfy my concerns by several members of the Political and Constitutional saying that there is legal provision to prevent a member Reform Committee, is perfect: it simply says that the of the Government from doing anything that the boundary Minister, if he or she wishes to make any modification, commission disagrees with, but I do not think he will be must return to the Boundary Commission and ask, able to, because I cannot see where the Bill or any Act “Are you okay with this amendment?” If Ministers were makes such a provision. That is why we wholeheartedly in a conciliatory, cross-party mood, they would accept support the amendment presented by the hon. Member the amendment. for Epping Forest. We believe intrinsically that it is one I fully understand that the precise wording they propose of the most important amendments to the Bill, and I do is that of the current legislation. That is fine when due not know whether she intends to press it to a Division, process can go on after the Boundary Commissions but if she does not we certainly shall. 1021 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1022 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill 4.45 pm members of Congress who say that they were blatantly redistricted by their own parties because they did not fit Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): As a member or did not particularly toe the line. We have seen that of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, happen in various states. I am disappointed to find that a measure with cross-party support on the Committee—we all agreed to it—has The arrangements provided in the Bill are pregnant not been accepted as a good piece of advice on amending with the possibility of abuse or accusations of abuse. a Bill which did not have the pre-legislative scrutiny that The parliamentary process needs to be protected from might have incorporated such a provision in the first that. The House has made a mistake in accepting boundary place. Indeed, that is why we have such bodies as Select reviews every five years rather than every 10 years. That Committees. They exist to ensure, in an atmosphere means that every Parliament will be affected and infected that is not adversarial, a greater depth of debate than by the issue and the controversy around it. If Ministers has been possible even in our debates on the Bill over want to be free from that, they should agree to the the past couple of days and today. All Select Committee amendment. members felt that, as a safeguard, the amendment was a Mr Heath: I am extremely grateful to the hon. Member reasonable way to progress, and, if Ministers have no for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) for moving the amendment. intention of making unreasonable modifications, they I give my best wishes—and, I am sure, those of the have nothing to lose from accepting such a provision. whole Committee—to the Chairman of the Political The hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) and Constitutional Reform Committee, who would said that she had no concerns about her Government normally have been here to speak about its proposals. using such powers. We might think differently, but We have had a short and helpful debate. The hon. equally she might think differently if there were a Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) has told us about change of Government. From the perspective of our the derivation of the word “gerrymander”again; hopefully, discussions in the Committee, the measure simply we will hear that each day this Committee sits. It represented a safeguard that accounts for the fact that worries me when the hon. Gentleman talks about due the whole procedure has changed. We know that the process: the more he talks about it—and it is not the provision in the Bill is very similar, so we are not issue before us at this stage—the more I think he does ignoring it, but the amendment was agreed to in the not know what it means. We will come back to that later. wider context of a debate about how we carry out such The hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) boundary changes, and the fact that public inquiries assumed a position on the part of the Government will not take place. We wanted to ensure that things without knowing what it was. I suggest to her that that could not be altered at the last minute in an unsatisfactory is not a sensible way to go forward; that is meant to be way that cut across whatever public consultation there helpful. We are grateful to her. had been throughout the process. The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) got the With many aspects of the Bill, we have forgotten the tone exactly right. There is an issue, and we understand underlying reason for wanting to legislate on the that. The amendment would allow the Order in Council constitution. I remember the Deputy Prime Minister, laid before Parliament to give effect to the boundary when he introduced this constitutional programme, saying commissions’ recommendations with modifications only that he wanted to overcome the distrust in politics and if the commissions were content with the changes made. the fact that people appeared to have lost faith in As we have heard, the existing legislation does not have politics and politicians, and that he felt that the a restriction on modification such as that proposed by constitutional changes would improve the situation. the amendment. The Bill simply preserves that power. Having listened to some of last night’s debate, I think it There is no record of that power ever having been very important that we bear that test in mind when we used. There was an instance in which a Government consider the provision before us. We should ask ourselves, urged Parliament to reject boundary commission proposals “Do these various detailed provisions improve that in toto rather than modify them, and some would trust or detract from it?” The amendment would be a suggest that that in itself was an abuse, but a Government small and fairly technical provision that went some way have never urged Parliament to modify such proposals, to meeting that test. I commend it to the Minister and so there is no history on the issue. However, I entirely hope that it might be accepted. understand the desire expressed by the Political and Mark Durkan: The amendment would represent a Constitutional Reform Committee to ensure the very important reassurance, because the Minister would independence of the boundary commissions and see not be able to make highly arbitrary and subjective that their work is not modified for partisan reasons by judgments on any modifications that were introduced. any Government. As my hon. Friends have pointed out, we are being I say to the hon. Member for Epping Forest that the asked to consider a situation in which, in every Parliament, Government would like to consider the matter in more there will be a boundary review in respect of the next detail. There might be a situation in which, for the Parliament. That means that in each Parliament, and in timely implementation of the boundary commission’s each Government, the relevant Minister will in effect recommendations, any unintended errors in the reports have his or her hands on a boundary review. That would need to be corrected in the Order in Council. We fundamentally changes the political nature of the operation, would want to consider carefully how any such restriction and it might be abused. I am thinking not only of one on the power to include modifications in the Order in party against another; it could be abused within a party. Council might work. It could become yet another of the Whips’ weapons There may be a technical defect in what the Political against recalcitrant Government Members—they could and Constitutional Reform Committee has brought say, “Look, we can redistrict you.” That is what has forward. That is not a criticism of its work. The amendment happened in the United States. We find many former appears to require all four boundary commissions to 1023 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1024 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Mr Heath] Austin, Ian Farrelly, Paul Bailey, Mr Adrian Fitzpatrick, Jim agree to any modification, rather than the relevant Bain, Mr William Flello, Robert commission or commissions for the part or parts of the Balls, rh Ed Flynn, Paul United Kingdom where the modification is being made. Banks, Gordon Fovargue, Yvonne We may have to look at how the amendment is cast. Barron, rh Mr Kevin Francis, Dr Hywel Beckett, rh Margaret Gapes, Mike Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): I did not jump Begg, Miss Anne Gardiner, Barry into the trap that my hon. Friend the Member for Benn, rh Hilary Gilmore, Sheila Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) jumped into. However, Benton, Mr Joe Glass, Pat I want to intervene to say that I would feel quite Betts, Mr Clive Glindon, Mrs Mary Blackman-Woods, Roberta Goodman, Helen differently if the hon. Gentleman gave an undertaking Blears, rh Hazel Greatrex, Tom that if he found some technical concern about the Blenkinsop, Tom Green, Kate wording, he would bring back an amendment that Blomfield, Paul Greenwood, Lilian made sure that no changes could be made to boundaries Blunkett, rh Mr David Griffith, Nia by a Minister without the consent of the boundary Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Gwynne, Andrew commission for the relevant region. Brennan, Kevin Hain, rh Mr Peter Brown, Lyn Hamilton, Mr David Mr Heath: The hon. Lady has been in government so Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hamilton, Mr Fabian she knows the constraints within which we work. Brown, Mr Russell Hanson, rh Mr David I am very sympathetic to the views expressed in the Bryant, Chris Harman, rh Ms Harriet amendment, and we will have to look at it further. That Buck, Ms Karen Havard, Mr Dai is not an attempt to fob off the hon. Member for Burnham, rh Andy Healey, rh John Epping Forest or the Select Committee. It raises an Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hendrick, Mark important issue. I do not want there to be any circumstances Cairns, David Heyes, David in which a Government can apply a partisan consideration Campbell, Mr Alan Hillier, Meg to a modification for a boundary commission response. Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hilling, Julie Caton, Martin Hodge, rh Margaret I give a clear undertaking that the Government will Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hodgson, Mrs Sharon consider the matter in detail and come back with a Clark, Katy Hoey, Kate response in due course. I ask the hon. Lady to withdraw Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hopkins, Kelvin the amendment on the basis that we will look at the Coaker, Vernon Howarth, rh Mr George matter further and that we are grateful to the Committee Coffey, Ann Hunt, Tristram for having brought it to our attention. Connarty, Michael Irranca-Davies, Huw Cooper, Rosie Jamieson, Cathy Mrs Laing: I thank the Minister for the serious way in Cooper, rh Yvette Johnson, rh Alan which he has considered the amendment. Corbyn, Jeremy Johnson, Diana R. I appreciate the position taken by the hon. Member Crausby, Mr David Jones, Graham for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore), but the Select Creagh, Mary Jones, Helen Committee has not suggested that the proposals in the Creasy, Stella Jones, Mr Kevan Bill avoid due process. I would argue personally, not Cruddas, Jon Jones, Susan Elan necessarily on behalf of the Committee, that the proposals Cryer, John Joyce, Eric in the Bill do involve due process, but that that is not a Cunningham, Alex Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald matter which hon. Members should worry about. That Cunningham, Mr Jim Keeley, Barbara Cunningham, Tony Keen, Alan is not the problem before us right now—the problem is Curran, Margaret Kendall, Liz simply whether the Government could, at some point in Dakin, Nic Khan, rh Sadiq the future, take action without the agreement of the Danczuk, Simon Lammy, rh Mr David boundary commissions. I am pleased that the Minister Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lavery, Ian has accepted that that is an issue. Every member of the David, Mr Wayne Lazarowicz, Mark Select Committee will be very pleased that its work has, Davidson, Mr Ian Leslie, Chris at least in this respect, been seen to be worth while and Davies, Geraint Lewis, Mr Ivan contributing to improving the Bill, which was our purpose De Piero, Gloria Lloyd, Tony in submitting the amendment. Having heard the general Denham, rh Mr John Llwyd, Mr Elfyn arguments put this afternoon, including by the shadow Dobbin, Jim Long, Naomi Minister, I believe that it may have to be tightened up Docherty, Thomas Love, Mr Andrew somewhat in its wording and technicalities. Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Lucas, Caroline Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lucas, Ian I am delighted that the Minister has indicated that Doran, Mr Frank MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan the Government will look in more detail at the matter Dowd, Jim Mactaggart, Fiona and undertaken to come back to the House with it. Doyle, Gemma Mahmood, Mr Khalid Given that assurance, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Dromey, Jack Mahmood, Shabana amendment. Dugher, Michael Mann, John Hon. Members: No. Durkan, Mark Marsden, Mr Gordon Eagle, Ms Angela McCabe, Steve The Committee divided: Ayes 231, Noes 308. Eagle, Maria McCarthy, Kerry Division No. 89] [4.58 pm Efford, Clive McClymont, Gregg Elliott, Julie McCrea, Dr William AYES Ellman, Mrs Louise McDonagh, Siobhain Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Ali, Rushanara Engel, Natascha McDonnell, John Alexander, Heidi Anderson, Mr David Evans, Chris McFadden, rh Mr Pat 1025 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1026 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill McGovern, Alison Simpson, David Carmichael, Neil Hemming, John McGovern, Jim Skinner, Mr Dennis Carswell, Mr Douglas Henderson, Gordon McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Slaughter, Mr Andy Chishti, Rehman Herbert, rh Nick McKinnell, Catherine Smith, Angela Clappison, Mr James Hinds, Damian Meacher, rh Mr Michael Smith, Nick Clark, rh Greg Hoban, Mr Mark Meale, Mr Alan Smith, Owen Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hollingbery, George Mearns, Ian Soulsby, Sir Peter Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hollobone, Mr Philip Michael, rh Alun Spellar, rh Mr John Collins, Damian Holloway, Mr Adam Miller, Andrew Straw, rh Mr Jack Colvile, Oliver Hopkins, Kris Mitchell, Austin Stringer, Graham Cox, Mr Geoffrey Horwood, Martin Moon, Mrs Madeleine Stuart, Ms Gisela Crabb, Stephen Howarth, Mr Gerald Morden, Jessica Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Crockart, Mike Howell, John Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Tami, Mark Crouch, Tracey Hughes, Simon Morris, Grahame M. Thomas, Mr Gareth Davey, Mr Edward Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy (Easington) Thornberry, Emily Davies, David T. C. Hunter, Mark Mudie, Mr George Trickett, Jon (Monmouth) Huppert, Dr Julian Munn, Meg Turner, Karl Davies, Glyn Jackson, Mr Stewart Murray, Ian Twigg, Derek Davis, rh Mr David Javid, Sajid Nandy, Lisa Twigg, Stephen de Bois, Nick Jenkin, Mr Bernard Nash, Pamela Umunna, Mr Chuka Dinenage, Caroline Johnson, Gareth Onwurah, Chi Vaz, Valerie Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Johnson, Joseph Osborne, Sandra Walley, Joan Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Jones, Andrew Owen, Albert Watson, Mr Tom Dorries, Nadine Jones, Mr David Paisley, Ian Watts, Mr Dave Doyle-Price, Jackie Jones, Mr Marcus Pearce, Teresa Weir, Mr Mike Drax, Richard Kawczynski, Daniel Perkins, Toby Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Duddridge, James Kelly, Chris Phillipson, Bridget Whitehead, Dr Alan Dunne, Mr Philip Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Pound, Stephen Wicks, rh Malcolm Ellis, Michael Kirby, Simon Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Williams, Hywel Ellison, Jane Knight, rh Mr Greg Riordan, Mrs Linda Williamson, Chris Eustice, George Kwarteng, Kwasi Robertson, John Wilson, Sammy Evans, Graham Laing, Mrs Eleanor Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Winnick, Mr David Evans, Jonathan Lancaster, Mark Rotheram, Steve Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Evennett, Mr David Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Roy, Mr Frank Wishart, Pete Fabricant, Michael Latham, Pauline Roy, Lindsay Wood, Mike Fallon, Michael Laws, rh Mr David Ruane, Chris Woodcock, John Farron, Tim Leadsom, Andrea Ruddock, rh Joan Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Featherstone, Lynne Lee, Jessica Field, Mr Mark Lee, Dr Phillip Sarwar, Anas Woolas, Mr Phil Seabeck, Alison Foster, Mr Don Leech, Mr John Wright, David Shannon, Jim Francois, rh Mr Mark Lefroy, Jeremy Wright, Mr Iain Sharma, Mr Virendra Freeman, George Leigh, Mr Edward Sheerman, Mr Barry Tellers for the Ayes: Fullbrook, Lorraine Leslie, Charlotte Sheridan, Jim Jonathan Reynolds and Fuller, Richard Lewis, Brandon Shuker, Gavin Phil Wilson Garnier, Mr Edward Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Garnier, Mark Lilley, rh Mr Peter NOES George, Andrew Lloyd, Stephen Gibb, Mr Nick Lopresti, Jack Adams, Nigel Blunt, Mr Crispin Gilbert, Stephen Lord, Jonathan Afriyie, Adam Boles, Nick Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Loughton, Tim Aldous, Peter Bone, Mr Peter Glen, John Lumley, Karen Andrew, Stuart Bottomley, Peter Goldsmith, Zac Macleod, Mary Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Bradley, Karen Graham, Richard Main, Mrs Anne Bacon, Mr Richard Brady, Mr Graham Gray, Mr James May, rh Mrs Theresa Bagshawe, Ms Louise Brake, Tom Greening, Justine Maynard, Paul Baker, Norman Bray, Angie Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McCartney, Jason Baker, Steve Brazier, Mr Julian Griffiths, Andrew McCartney, Karl Baldry, Tony Bridgen, Andrew Gummer, Ben McIntosh, Miss Anne Baldwin, Harriett Brine, Mr Steve Gyimah, Mr Sam McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Barclay, Stephen Brokenshire, James Halfon, Robert McPartland, Stephen Barker, Gregory Brooke, Annette Hames, Duncan McVey, Esther Barwell, Gavin Bruce, Fiona Hammond, rh Mr Philip Menzies, Mark Bebb, Guto Bruce, rh Malcolm Hancock, Matthew Mercer, Patrick Beith, rh Sir Alan Buckland, Mr Robert Hancock, Mr Mike Metcalfe, Stephen Bellingham, Mr Henry Burley, Mr Aidan Hands, Greg Miller, Maria Benyon, Richard Burns, Conor Harper, Mr Mark Mills, Nigel Beresford, Sir Paul Burns, Mr Simon Harrington, Richard Milton, Anne Berry, Jake Burrowes, Mr David Harris, Rebecca Moore, rh Michael Bingham, Andrew Burstow, Paul Hart, Simon Mordaunt, Penny Binley, Mr Brian Byles, Dan Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morgan, Nicky Birtwistle, Gordon Cairns, Alun Hayes, Mr John Morris, Anne Marie Blackman, Bob Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Heald, Mr Oliver Morris, David Blackwood, Nicola Carmichael, Mr Alistair Heath, Mr David Morris, James 1027 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1028 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Mosley, Stephen Smith, Julian The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Hoyle): With Mowat, David Smith, Sir Robert this it will be convenient to discuss Government Mulholland, Greg Soames, Nicholas amendments 163 to 167. Munt, Tessa Soubry, Anna Murray, Sheryll Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Mr Heath: These are minor amendments to clarify Murrison, Dr Andrew Spencer, Mr Mark the position on ministerial responsibilities in relation to Neill, Robert Stanley, rh Sir John Newmark, Mr Brooks Stephenson, Andrew the constituencies provisions of the Bill. Responsibility Newton, Sarah Stewart, Iain for elections law, including parliamentary constituencies, Nokes, Caroline Stewart, Rory is now exercisable by the Lord President and the Secretary Norman, Jesse Streeter, Mr Gary of State, as my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Nuttall, Mr David Stride, Mel Minister, as Lord President of the Council, now has O’Brien, Mr Stephen Stuart, Mr Graham responsibility for political and constitutional reform. Offord, Mr Matthew Stunell, Andrew That was effected by the Lord President of the Council Ollerenshaw, Eric Sturdy, Julian Order 2010, which provides that functions under various Opperman, Guy Swales, Ian Acts, including the Parliamentary Constituencies Act 1986, Ottaway, Richard Swayne, Mr Desmond are exercisable concurrently by the Lord President and Paice, Mr James Swinson, Jo the Secretary of State. In the case of that Act, “the Parish, Neil Swire, Mr Hugo Secretary of State” includes the Secretaries of State for Patel, Priti Syms, Mr Robert Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, who retain functions Pawsey, Mark Teather, Sarah Penning, Mike Thurso, John relating to boundary commissions in their parts of the Penrose, John Timpson, Mr Edward United Kingdom. Percy, Andrew Tomlinson, Justin The order states that references to the 1986 Act Perry, Claire Tredinnick, David include references to it as amended by any enactment Phillips, Stephen Truss, Elizabeth already made but not yet in force. It is arguable that that Pickles, rh Mr Eric Turner, Mr Andrew implies that such a reference does not include a reference Pincher, Christopher Uppal, Paul to that Act as amended by a subsequent enactment. The Poulter, Dr Daniel Vaizey, Mr Edward amendment therefore provides that the reference to Pritchard, Mark Vickers, Martin the 1986 Act in the order is to be read as a reference to Pugh, Dr John Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa the Act as amended by the Bill. Raab, Mr Dominic Walker, Mr Charles Amendments 163 to 167 are to clause 11 on the Randall, rh Mr John Wallace, Mr Ben Reckless, Mark relationship between the changes to parliamentary Walter, Mr Robert Redwood, rh Mr John constituencies and the constituencies of the National Ward, Mr David Rees-Mogg, Jacob Watkinson, Angela Assembly for Wales. They make similar changes to Reevell, Simon Weatherley, Mike those in the Lord President of the Council Order 2010, Reid, Mr Alan Webb, Steve so that the clause refers to both the Secretary of State Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm and the Lord President of the Council, and not just to Robathan, Mr Andrew Wharton, James Wheeler, Heather the Secretary of State. That is done in the same way as Robertson, Hugh in part 1 of the Bill, which provides that the Minister Rogerson, Dan White, Chris Rosindell, Andrew Whittaker, Craig means the Lord President or the Secretary of State. I Rudd, Amber Whittingdale, Mr John hope that that is perfectly clear to the Committee. Ruffley, Mr David Wiggin, Bill Russell, Bob Willetts, rh Mr David Chris Bryant: These amendments seem perfectly sensible Rutley, David Williams, Mr Mark and we have no problem with them. We hope that they Sanders, Mr Adrian Williams, Roger will go forward immediately. Sandys, Laura Williams, Stephen Amendment 162 agreed to. Scott, Mr Lee Williamson, Gavin Selous, Andrew Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 68), That Willott, Jenny the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill. Shapps, rh Grant Wilson, Mr Rob Sharma, Alok Wright, Simon The Committee divided: Ayes 311, Noes 225. Shelbrooke, Alec Yeo, Mr Tim Shepherd, Mr Richard Division No. 90] [5.15 pm Young, rh Sir George Simmonds, Mark Zahawi, Nadhim Simpson, Mr Keith AYES Skidmore, Chris Tellers for the Noes: Adams, Nigel Beith, rh Sir Alan Smith, Miss Chloe Mr Shailesh Vara and Afriyie, Adam Bellingham, Mr Henry Smith, Henry Jeremy Wright Aldous, Peter Benyon, Richard Andrew, Stuart Beresford, Sir Paul Question accordingly negatived. Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Berry, Jake Bacon, Mr Richard Bingham, Andrew Bagshawe, Ms Louise Binley, Mr Brian Mr Heath: I beg to move amendment 162, Baker, Norman Birtwistle, Gordon page 7, line 22, at end insert— Baker, Steve Blackman, Bob Baldry, Tony Blackwood, Nicola ‘( ) In Article 3 of the Lord President of the Council Order 2010 (S.I. 2010/1837) (which makes certain functions of Baldwin, Harriett Blunt, Mr Crispin the Secretary of State exercisable concurrently with the Lord Barclay, Stephen Boles, Nick President) the reference in paragraph (1) to the Parliamentary Barker, Gregory Bone, Mr Peter Constituencies Act 1986 is to be read as a reference to that Act as Barwell, Gavin Bottomley, Peter amended by this section.’. Bebb, Guto Bradley, Karen 1029 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1030 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Brady, Mr Graham Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Loughton, Tim Scott, Mr Lee Brake, Tom Glen, John Lumley, Karen Selous, Andrew Bray, Angie Goldsmith, Zac Macleod, Mary Shapps, rh Grant Brazier, Mr Julian Graham, Richard Main, Mrs Anne Sharma, Alok Bridgen, Andrew Gray, Mr James May, rh Mrs Theresa Shelbrooke, Alec Brine, Mr Steve Greening, Justine Maynard, Paul Shepherd, Mr Richard Brokenshire, James Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McCartney, Jason Simmonds, Mark Brooke, Annette Griffiths, Andrew McCartney, Karl Simpson, Mr Keith Browne, Mr Jeremy Gummer, Ben McIntosh, Miss Anne Skidmore, Chris Bruce, Fiona Gyimah, Mr Sam McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Miss Chloe Bruce, rh Malcolm Halfon, Robert McPartland, Stephen Smith, Henry Buckland, Mr Robert Hames, Duncan McVey, Esther Smith, Julian Burley, Mr Aidan Hammond, rh Mr Philip Menzies, Mark Smith, Sir Robert Burns, Conor Hancock, Matthew Mercer, Patrick Soames, Nicholas Burns, Mr Simon Hancock, Mr Mike Metcalfe, Stephen Soubry, Anna Burrowes, Mr David Hands, Greg Miller, Maria Spelman, rh Mrs Burstow, Paul Harper, Mr Mark Mills, Nigel Caroline Byles, Dan Harrington, Richard Milton, Anne Spencer, Mr Mark Cairns, Alun Harris, Rebecca Moore, rh Michael Stanley, rh Sir John Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hart, Simon Mordaunt, Penny Stephenson, Andrew Carmichael, Mr Alistair Haselhurst, rh Sir Morgan, Nicky Stevenson, John Carmichael, Neil Alan Morris, Anne Marie Stewart, Iain Carswell, Mr Douglas Hayes, Mr John Morris, James Stewart, Rory Chishti, Rehman Heald, Mr Oliver Mosley, Stephen Streeter, Mr Gary Clappison, Mr James Heath, Mr David Mowat, David Stride, Mel Clark, rh Greg Hemming, John Mulholland, Greg Stuart, Mr Graham Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Henderson, Gordon Mundell, rh David Stunell, Andrew Coffey, Dr Thérèse Herbert, rh Nick Munt, Tessa Sturdy, Julian Collins, Damian Hinds, Damian Murray, Sheryll Swales, Ian Colvile, Oliver Hoban, Mr Mark Murrison, Dr Andrew Swayne, Mr Desmond Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hollingbery, George Neill, Robert Swinson, Jo Crabb, Stephen Hollobone, Mr Philip Newmark, Mr Brooks Swire, Mr Hugo Crockart, Mike Holloway, Mr Adam Newton, Sarah Syms, Mr Robert Crouch, Tracey Hopkins, Kris Nokes, Caroline Teather, Sarah Davey, Mr Edward Horwood, Martin Norman, Jesse Thurso, John Davies, David T. C. Howell, John Nuttall, Mr David Timpson, Mr Edward (Monmouth) Hughes, Simon O’Brien, Mr Stephen Tomlinson, Justin Davies, Glyn Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Offord, Mr Matthew Tredinnick, David Davis, rh Mr David Huppert, Dr Julian Ollerenshaw, Eric Truss, Elizabeth de Bois, Nick Hurd, Mr Nick Opperman, Guy Turner, Mr Andrew Dinenage, Caroline Jackson, Mr Stewart Ottaway, Richard Uppal, Paul Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Javid, Sajid Paice, Mr James Vaizey, Mr Edward Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Jenkin, Mr Bernard Parish, Neil Vara, Mr Shailesh Dorries, Nadine Johnson, Gareth Patel, Priti Vickers, Martin Doyle-Price, Jackie Johnson, Joseph Pawsey, Mark Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Drax, Richard Jones, Andrew Penning, Mike Walker, Mr Charles Duddridge, James Jones, Mr David Penrose, John Wallace, Mr Ben Dunne, Mr Philip Jones, Mr Marcus Percy, Andrew Walter, Mr Robert Ellis, Michael Kawczynski, Daniel Perry, Claire Ward, Mr David Ellison, Jane Kelly, Chris Phillips, Stephen Watkinson, Angela Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Pickles, rh Mr Eric Weatherley, Mike Eustice, George Kirby, Simon Pincher, Christopher Webb, Steve Evans, Graham Knight, rh Mr Greg Poulter, Dr Daniel Wharton, James Evans, Jonathan Kwarteng, Kwasi Pritchard, Mark Wheeler, Heather Evennett, Mr David Laing, Mrs Eleanor Pugh, Dr John White, Chris Fabricant, Michael Lancaster, Mark Randall, rh Mr John Whittaker, Craig Fallon, Michael Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Reckless, Mark Whittingdale, Mr John Farron, Tim Latham, Pauline Redwood, rh Mr John Wiggin, Bill Featherstone, Lynne Laws, rh Mr David Rees-Mogg, Jacob Field, Mr Mark Leadsom, Andrea Reid, Mr Alan Willetts, rh Mr David Foster, Mr Don Lee, Jessica Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Williams, Mr Mark Fox,rhDrLiam Lee, Dr Phillip Robathan, Mr Andrew Williams, Roger Francois, rh Mr Mark Leech, Mr John Robertson, Hugh Williams, Stephen Freeman, George Lefroy, Jeremy Robertson, Mr Laurence Williamson, Gavin Fullbrook, Lorraine Leigh, Mr Edward Rogerson, Dan Willott, Jenny Fuller, Richard Leslie, Charlotte Rosindell, Andrew Wilson, Mr Rob Garnier, Mr Edward Lewis, Brandon Rudd, Amber Wright, Simon Garnier, Mark Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Ruffley, Mr David Young, rh Sir George Gauke, Mr David Lilley, rh Mr Peter Russell, Bob Zahawi, Nadhim George, Andrew Lloyd, Stephen Rutley, David Tellers for the Ayes: Gibb, Mr Nick Lopresti, Jack Sanders, Mr Adrian Mark Hunter and Gilbert, Stephen Lord, Jonathan Sandys, Laura Jeremy Wright 1031 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1032 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill NOES McGovern, Alison Shuker, Gavin McGovern, Jim Simpson, David Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Efford, Clive McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Skinner, Mr Dennis Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Elliott, Julie McKinnell, Catherine Slaughter, Mr Andy Alexander, Heidi Ellman, Mrs Louise Meacher, rh Mr Michael Smith, Angela Ali, Rushanara Engel, Natascha Meale, Mr Alan Smith, Nick Anderson, Mr David Esterson, Bill Mearns, Ian Smith, Owen Austin, Ian Evans, Chris Michael, rh Alun Soulsby, Sir Peter Bailey, Mr Adrian Fitzpatrick, Jim Miller, Andrew Spellar, rh Mr John Bain, Mr William Flello, Robert Mitchell, Austin Straw, rh Mr Jack Balls, rh Ed Flynn, Paul Moon, Mrs Madeleine Stringer, Graham Banks, Gordon Fovargue, Yvonne Morden, Jessica Stuart, Ms Gisela Barron, rh Mr Kevin Francis, Dr Hywel Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Beckett, rh Margaret Gapes, Mike Morris, Grahame M. Tami, Mark Begg, Miss Anne Gardiner, Barry (Easington) Thomas, Mr Gareth Benn, rh Hilary Gilmore, Sheila Mudie, Mr George Thornberry, Emily Benton, Mr Joe Glass, Pat Munn, Meg Trickett, Jon Betts, Mr Clive Glindon, Mrs Mary Murphy, rh Mr Jim Turner, Karl Blackman-Woods, Roberta Goodman, Helen Murray, Ian Twigg, Derek Blears, rh Hazel Greatrex, Tom Nandy, Lisa Twigg, Stephen Blenkinsop, Tom Green, Kate Nash, Pamela Umunna, Mr Chuka Blomfield, Paul Greenwood, Lilian Onwurah, Chi Vaz, Valerie Blunkett, rh Mr David Griffith, Nia Osborne, Sandra Walley, Joan Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Gwynne, Andrew Owen, Albert Watson, Mr Tom Brennan, Kevin Hain, rh Mr Peter Paisley, Ian Watts, Mr Dave Brown, Lyn Hamilton, Mr David Pearce, Teresa Weir, Mr Mike Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hamilton, Mr Fabian Perkins, Toby Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Brown, Mr Russell Hanson, rh Mr David Phillipson, Bridget Whitehead, Dr Alan Bryant, Chris Harman, rh Ms Harriet Pound, Stephen Wicks, rh Malcolm Buck, Ms Karen Havard, Mr Dai Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Williams, Hywel Burnham, rh Andy Healey, rh John Riordan, Mrs Linda Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hendrick, Mark Williamson, Chris Robertson, John Cairns, David Heyes, David Winnick, Mr David Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Campbell, Mr Alan Hillier, Meg Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Rotheram, Steve Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hilling, Julie Wishart, Pete Roy, Mr Frank Caton, Martin Hodge, rh Margaret Wood, Mike Roy, Lindsay Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Woodcock, John Ruane, Chris Clark, Katy Hoey, Kate Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Ruddock, rh Joan Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hopkins, Kelvin Woolas, Mr Phil Sarwar, Anas Coaker, Vernon Hunt, Tristram Wright, David Seabeck, Alison Coffey, Ann Irranca-Davies, Huw Wright, Mr Iain Shannon, Jim Connarty, Michael Jamieson, Cathy Sharma, Mr Virendra Cooper, Rosie Johnson, Diana R. Tellers for the Noes: Sheerman, Mr Barry Cooper, rh Yvette Jones, Graham Jonathan Reynolds and Sheridan, Jim Corbyn, Jeremy Jones, Helen Phil Wilson Crausby, Mr David Jones, Mr Kevan Creagh, Mary Jones, Susan Elan Question accordingly agreed to. Creasy, Stella Joyce, Eric Clause 8, as amended, accordingly ordered to stand Cruddas, Jon Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald part of the Bill. Cryer, John Keeley, Barbara Cunningham, Alex Keen, Alan John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): On a point of order, Cunningham, Mr Jim Kendall, Liz Mr Hoyle. The amendments selected in this group Cunningham, Tony Khan, rh Sadiq include some that are proposing special privileges—some Curran, Margaret Lavery, Ian might say gerrymandering—for certain constituencies, Dakin, Nic Lazarowicz, Mark and these have been ruled to be in order, while others Danczuk, Simon Leslie, Chris suggesting gerrymandering, such as my own, which Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lewis, Mr Ivan David, Mr Wayne Lloyd, Tony suggests that the traditional rotten borough of Retford Davidson, Mr Ian Long, Naomi should be created, as it was in 1832, have been ruled out Davies, Geraint Love, Mr Andrew of order. [HON.MEMBERS: “It is not this group. It is the De Piero, Gloria Lucas, Ian next group.”] Well, I am making my point now anyway. Denham, rh Mr John MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Why have some been ruled in and some ruled out, when Dobbin, Jim Mactaggart, Fiona they are all about gerrymandering the boundaries? Docherty, Thomas Mahmood, Mr Khalid Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Mann, John The Chairman of Ways and Means: I welcome your Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Marsden, Mr Gordon opinion, but you cannot discuss amendments that have Doran, Mr Frank McCabe, Steve not been selected. Dowd, Jim McCarthy, Kerry Doyle, Gemma McClymont, Gregg Clause 9 Dugher, Michael McCrea, Dr William NUMBER AND DISTRIBUTION OF SEATS Durkan, Mark McDonagh, Siobhain Eagle, Ms Angela McDonnell, John Chris Bryant: I beg to move amendment 364, page 7, leave Eagle, Maria McFadden, rh Mr Pat out lines 27 and 28 and insert— 1033 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1034 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill ‘UK Electoral quota the number of seats and to fix it at 600. First, they are 1 The UK Electoral Quota shall be defined as the total electorate rigging the number of seats. The 600 seats figure did not of the United Kingdom on the designated enumeration day appear in any party’s manifesto. The Liberal Democrats divided by 650.’. mentioned 500 MPs in their manifesto, while the Conservatives had a manifesto commitment to reduce The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): the number of seats by 10%, which would have taken With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: the number down to 585. Neither of those figures is in Amendment 41, page 7, line 28, leave out ‘600’ and front of us. Why might that possibly be? If those two insert parties were doing a deal, it would be reasonable to ‘gradually reduced to 600 in accordance with the terms of assume that we would end somewhere between the rule 1A. 500 seats mentioned in one manifesto and the 1A (1) In each periodic report submitted by a Boundary 585 mentioned in the other. In fact, they have gone for a Commission under section 3(2), the overall number of completely new figure, which seems to have been plucked constituencies in each part of the United Kingdom shall be no out of the air. more than in the previous report. (2) The Boundary Commissions shall meet at the outset of 5.30 pm each periodic review to determine the overall number of constituencies in the United Kingdom, and the number to be That said, has it really been plucked out of the air? allocated to each of the four parts of the United Kingdom by Having looked at the numbers, I suspect that bringing each Commission, in accordance with rule 8. the number of seats down to 600 will disproportionately (3) The Boundary Commissions shall ensure that the overall attack Labour seats, while going down to 585 would number of constituencies in the United Kingdom is reduced in disproportionately attack Liberal Democrat seats. I therefore each succeeding periodic report to no more than 600 by 2029 in suspect that the number of 600 has been arrived at their fourth/fifth periodic reports.’. specifically for partisan purposes—to rig the Parliament Amendment 67, page 7, line 28, leave out ‘600’ and of this country. That is why we will not support the insert ‘585’. clause. Amendment 74, page 7, line 28, leave out ‘600’ and insert ‘500’. Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Does the Amendment 227, page 7, line 28, leave out ‘600’ and hon. Gentleman accept the possibility that the compromise insert— arrived at might not have been one between us and the Liberals, but among us, the Liberals and the Labour ‘no fewer than 588 and no more than 612’. minority that wanted 650 seats? Amendment 259, page 7, line 28, leave out ‘600’ and insert ‘650’. Chris Bryant: Well, I would have been absolutely Amendment 42, page 7, leave out lines 35 to 37 and delighted if any process of consultation with Labour insert— Members had taken place on the issue of the size of ‘U/T where U is the electorate of the United Kingdom minus Parliament. Such a process has always taken place in the electorate of the constituencies mentioned in rule 6 and T is the past and if it had done so this time, I would have the overall number of constituencies in the United Kingdom ardently supported the Bill. However, absolutely no determined by the Boundary Commissions under rule 1A above.’. consultation has taken place. The number has not been Amendment 68, page 7, line 35, leave out ‘U/598’ and plucked out of the air—it is a partisan number, arrived insert ‘U/583’. at solely to rig the electorate so that the Government Amendment 75, page 7, line 35, leave out ‘U/598’ and will win general elections in the future. insert ‘U/498’. Amendment 260, page 7, line 35, leave out ‘U/598’ Mr Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) and insert ‘U/648’. (Con): Does the shadow Minister have any evidence Amendment 228, page 9, line 40, at end insert— whatever to back up his allegation? ‘Variation in number of constituencies Chris Bryant: All the hon. Gentleman need do is look 8A (8) A Boundary Commission shall have power to at the figures produced by many bodies, which make it recommend that the number of constituencies in the relevant abundantly clear. part of the United Kingdom should be greater or smaller than the number determined in accordance with the allocation method set out in rule 8. Tristram Hunt: Given that this is indeed a partisan figure plucked out of the air, which appeared in neither (9) The number so recommended must be no less than 98 per cent. and no more than 102 per cent. of the number so of the governing parties’ manifestos, does my hon. determined.’. Friend think that the Salisbury convention will apply in the other place? This provision has not been mandated Chris Bryant: Amendment 364 would replace the first by the people, so, under the Salisbury principle, it subsection of clause 9, which states that the number of should not necessarily pass through the other place. constituencies in the United Kingdom shall be 600, with the proposal: Chris Bryant: I hope that the House of Lords will “The UK Electoral Quota shall be defined as the total electorate look at this sort of measure. Historically, it has always of the United Kingdom on the designated enumeration day looked at measures coming from the House of Commons, divided by 650.” where the Government enjoy a majority by definition. I am sure that all hon. Members will note that 650 is the Where the Lords have thought that legislation was present number of Members of Parliament, as opposed calculated for partisan advantage, they have sought to to the 600 that the Bill proposes. I am opposed for a look at it very closely. On many occasions in the past series of reasons to the Government’s proposal to change they have sought to change such legislation and make 1035 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1036 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Chris Bryant] Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I think that that is an important principle. If one is a the House of Commons think again. As to the Salisbury Unionist— convention, one problem is that it is difficult for the Lords to work out what counts as having been in a Mr Mark Field rose— manifesto, given that two of them are now relevant. However, the number of seats specified in the clause did Mrs Laing rose— not appear in either manifesto, so this does present a problem. Chris Bryant: Just one moment. There is a further problem. In recent years, it has I know that the constituency of the hon. Member for been unusual for the Government to enjoy a majority in Corby (Ms Bagshawe) contains many people with Scottish both this House and the other place. By virtue of the ancestry, but I do not think that she is entirely versed in fact that there are now two parties in government, there the dangers of nationalism that exist in Scotland and should ostensibly be a majority in the House of Lords. I Wales. I merely say to her, in a gentle way, that if she am very confident, however, about their lordships’ capacity really wants to maintain the strength of the Union, we for independence of mind, regardless of the whipping ought to proceed differently. arrangements. Mr Mark Field: I agree with what the shadow Minister The other reason why I believe the system is being is trying to achieve, and, if the Committee divides on rigged, which is why I am opposed to the reduction the amendment, I shall vote against the reduction. from 650 to 600 seats, is on account of the double However, for two reasons, I am not sure that he is whammy that will apply to some parts of the United making a terribly good case. Kingdom. I am sorry if hon. Members feel I talk too We have discussed what happened in Scotland in much about Wales—I was about to say that I make no 2005. There was not a great Unionist upsurge there apology for saying that, but I have already apologised. when there was a 20% reduction in the number of seats My point is that Wales faces a double whammy. If the specifically in Scotland and in no other part of the number of parliamentary seats had to be reduced, I United Kingdom. Does the hon. Gentleman not recognise would have thought that no single part of the country— that his is not a terribly strong argument? particularly a constituent element of the Union—should be so disproportionately affected in one fell swoop. The Welsh position has been maintained since we Reducing the number of parliamentary seats in Wales drew up the constituencies. There were 38 protected by 25%, while no other part of the United Kingdom is constituencies there until 1983, and 40 thereafter. The to suffer such an immediate cut, will be detrimental to position of Wales has been protected, and it is massively the relationship between Wales and the rest of the over-represented. That is the reason for the move to United Kingdom and will merely inflame the thoughts equalise the size of electorates, which I also fully support. of nationalism that already exist in Wales. Chris Bryant: This is what I meant by the double Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): Did not the whammy element. Wales is caught both by the equalisation last Labour Government reduce the number of seats in of the number of seats—we are not debating that now, Scotland, while making no changes anywhere else in the but we will when we deal with the next set of United Kingdom? amendments—and by the reduction in the number of seats. The net effect for Wales is that the number of seats will Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly be cut by a quarter. well that the number of seats in Scotland was reduced That presents some specific problems for Wales. It as a result of lengthy consultation there, not just of has already proved impossible for the present Government political parties but of the whole of society. There was a to ensure that the Secretary of State for Wales represents long convention that lasted for several years before the a Welsh seat—although I admit that she is Welsh—and 1977 general election, which led to the Scotland Act 1998, it will become increasingly difficult to do so in the the referendum, the creation of the Scottish Parliament—of future. Because Wales, unlike Scotland, has never had a which we are very proud—and, in exchange for that, a separate legal system, the Welsh Affairs Committee has reduction in the number of seats in Scotland. The hon. to do a large amount of work, and that will continue. I Gentleman has just voted against a measure that would think that it will be difficult to meet those needs with have prevented the Boundary Commission from reporting only 30 seats. until after a referendum had been held in Wales on the I am not arguing for the status quo in the number of powers that should be available to the Welsh Assembly. Welsh seats. I am merely trying to present an argument, There is an inconsistency in what he is arguing. and I am sorry that it does not appeal to the hon. Gentleman. I hope that further elements of my speech Ms Louise Bagshawe (Corby) (Con): The hon. Gentleman will appeal to him more. speaks of inconsistency. Is it not ironic that he should use the word “disproportionate” to describe what would Mrs Laing: No one is a more ardent Unionist than I happen in Wales as a result of the Bill, given that what am, and I fully understand what the hon. Gentleman is would actually happen is that proportionate weight saying about Wales, but he must look at the arithmetic, would be given to Welsh votes, as to the votes of any which is inescapable. There will be a larger reduction in other electors in United Kingdom? the number of seats in Wales than, proportionately, in the rest of the United Kingdom because, at present, the Chris Bryant: As I tried to argue earlier and will argue people of Wales are over-represented in the House, as again, that simply is not the way in which, historically, well as having a devolved Assembly, or Parliament, of we have put together the Parliament of the United their own. The hon. Gentleman cannot argue that it is 1037 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1038 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill right for the people of Wales to have smaller constituencies that that would somehow snuff out Scottish nationalism? and more Members of Parliament in the House of The idea was not that there should be an Administration Commons than the people of most of England and run by Scottish nationalists within eight years of the Scotland. That simply does not make sense. setting up of the Scottish Parliament. Therefore, the notion that not reducing the number of seats will be in Chris Bryant: As the hon. Lady knows, there are the interests of those who do not want to see an increase differences between Wales and Scotland: Scotland has a in nationalism has not been borne out by the facts. Parliament which also has powers over crime and justice, which Wales does not have; Scotland has a completely Chris Bryant: That was never my argument in favour different legal system, which Wales does not have; and it of devolution in Scotland or Wales. My argument in raises taxes, which Wales cannot do. It is a very different favour of devolution was simply that it is better to system, therefore. devolve responsibility for issues that most directly affect Let me reiterate yet again that I am not saying that we people to the people who are most directly affected. want to hold to the status quo, but I think there will be a That is why I thought it was right to establish the danger for the Unionist argument in Wales if we move Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly. I very forward in one fell swoop from having 40 seats to there much hope we will be snuffing out nationalism in Scotland being only 29 or 30. That would create problems for the come next May however, and I hope that the hon. future. Let me also say that I hope that Welsh Members Gentleman agrees with me on that. work sufficiently hard that they provide value for the There is one other reason why I think the diminution House, even though the hon. Lady thinks there are too in the number of seats from 650 to 600 is a mistake, many of us. which is to do with the number of Ministers. At present, the law allows that there should be 95 Ministers, paid or Phil Wilson: The Deputy Prime Minister keeps going unpaid, sitting in the House of Commons, and if there on about this being the greatest constitutional reform are any more, they are barred from sitting in the Commons. legislation since 1832. The 1832 Act went on to equalise That is an important principle. The Executive, who— the size of constituencies but left the number of unusually compared with other such systems around constituencies at 658; it did not reduce them at all. I the world—exclusively sit in Parliament, should be limited believe the current Government want to reduce the as should the Prime Minister’s patronage. If we reduce number of seats in order to gerrymander the whole the number of seats from 650 to 600 and do not change electoral system so that we do not have a Labour the number of Ministers, the proportion of Parliament—the Government in the future. legislature—that represents the Executive will grow. I hope that we will be moving in the opposite direction, Chris Bryant: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, although part of me is being somewhat hypocritical except in one respect: the 1832 Act did not equalise the because I was an unpaid Minister for a while when I seats at all. In 1867, there was a discussion about held the post that the Deputy Leader of the House now equalising seats but that was decided against. The argument holds. The advent of so many unpaid Ministers is a that was used then, and which has been used consistently shame and the number of Parliamentary Private Secretaries in the past, is that it is more important for Members to has also increased dramatically in recent years. Prime represent communities than it is for there to be precisely Ministers have sought to find other ways of extending numerically equal seats. Obviously that was, in part, patronage by making people vice-chair of a committee because of the nature of the franchise at the time. or by all sorts of other means. That is wrong, because Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): I am listening we should be limiting the power of patronage within the carefully to the case that the hon. Gentleman is making. legislature, so that the legislature can do a better job—I He seems to be saying that he is quite prepared to see argued that when Labour was in government and I am the number of seats reduced from 40. Will the hon. arguing it now. That is why reducing the number of Gentleman give us some idea as to what figure he is seats from 650 to 600 without reducing the number of prepared to see, therefore? It would be interesting to Ministers is a mistake. know exactly what figure the Opposition have in mind. 5.45 pm Chris Bryant: Several amendments in the next group It is also a mistake to fix the number of seats, by refer to how one might make provision specifically for which I do not mean rig that number—I have already Wales, but there are other places we would like to make dealt with that argument; it did not appeal to the hon. provision for, such as Cornwall and the Isle of Wight, Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr Field), rather than just the three areas the Bill covers. At but we will see whether I get better. We have never fixed present, however, I am specifically addressing the proposal the number of seats in the British Parliament or in the to reduce the total number of seats from 650 to 600. UK Parliament. The 1832 Act determined how many Mr Mark Field rose— seats there should be, because it created a certain number of seats and abolished some others, but it did not say Chris Bryant: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, that the number of seats should be fixed for ever. but I hope shortly to be able to come on to some of the Indeed, several other seats were added in subsequent arguments that he likes more than those I am addressing years, including in 1867. When further people were at present. enfranchised in 1885 it was said that there was clearly a need for a further number of seats, and each time an Mr Field: Given that the hon. Gentleman’s concern is element of the Celtic nations was added to the British that this move would lead to an increase in Welsh Parliament, a number of seats were added. So it is nationalism, will he reflect on the fact that, prior to inappropriate for us to be fixing the number of seats 1997, the rationale for having a Scottish Parliament was and then saying, “We divide it up.” 1039 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1040 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill John Mann: Have we not now reached the crucial, That is why I think it is wrong to fix the number at salient point, which is that even in recent times Parliament 600. If hon. Members think there should be a precise has set not an absolute number, but a target—I believe equation between the electorate in constituencies, it that the last one was 613—for the Boundary Commission, would be better to say that every constituency should be so that an independent boundary commission, taking roughly 75,000 electors, give or take 5% or 10%. The into account other criteria, can then set the boundaries? Boundary Commission could then conclude how many Is not the fundamental difference that this rather irregular seats there should be as a result of that to meet the two Bill attempts to create an arbitrary number without requirements—first, getting close to the 75,000 and, building in that flexibility for an independent body to secondly, any other overriding concerns. set this coherently? Tristram Hunt: Does not the figure of 600 point to Chris Bryant: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. the fundamental problem with the Bill, which is that it This approach runs against the grain of how we have is spatchcocked with the demand for the referendum on always done things in this House; the proposition has the one hand and the reduction in the number of seats always been that representation in the British Parliament on the other? That means that no thought has been should be based on the communities that exist. There given to the role and function of a Member of Parliament, has been a recognition, first, that the shires needed what we want from Members of Parliament and how representation. Irrespective of whether they were large many should fulfil that function. Instead, this has all or small, the shires always had exactly the same number been pooled together and pulled out of the air and that of seats—at first they had two, then four for a while, is why the Government are going to have problems. then two again and briefly three. It was then said that towns had to be represented and the row was then about Chris Bryant: I very much agree. One subject that I which towns genuinely represented communities. The want to mention is precisely what the job of a Member big change in the 1832 Act was that this House said that of Parliament is in the modern era. That has obviously we could not have rotten boroughs where, to all intents changed in the past 50 years and I pay tribute to the and purposes, there were no electors and the seat was Liberal Democrats, because the kind of pavement politics granted by the landlord to whomever he thought fit, that they advocated strongly—through which they won and instead we had to ensure that where there were a number of seats in the ’80s and ’90s—is one thing that genuine communities, they should have representation, has changed the nature of an MP’s job today. My hon. with large communities having two seats and smaller Friend is right, and I do not think that there has been communities having one. any consideration of that matter at all. In addition, specifically at the moments of union, this House decided that the communities involved needed Susan Elan Jones: I welcome what my hon. Friend representation. So under the Act of Union in 1536, said about the balance between the Executive and the when Wales was brought in, 44 Members of Parliament legislature. Judging from some of the nodding of heads, were allowed for Wales—it took them six years to get other Members did too. However, does he agree with here, but they were here by 1542. After the Union with the Deputy Prime Minister, who said to the Political England Act 1707, Scotland had 45 Members—that and Constitutional Reform Committee in July: was increased to 53 by the 1832 Act. Following the Act “I think we have executive dominance; we have one of the most of Union (Ireland) 1800, Ireland had 100 Members, a executive-led forms of government anywhere in the western world”? number that subsequently increased to 105, reduced to I am not sure whether Nick agrees with Nick now, but 103 and was reformed again in the 20th century with the does my hon. Friend? creation of the Irish Free State. It is also important that we do not fix the number at Chris Bryant: Yes, that is true because of the structure 600 because of the way in which the Government have we have in this country. Sometimes Members talk of crafted their Bill. It rightly allows a certain flexibility, checks and balances, which is really an import from the because the electorate of any constituency may be between American system where the constitution was expressly 95% and 105% of the aimed-at electorate across the written so as to have checks and balances. Incidentally, country. one of those checks and balances in the American Now, let us leave aside the question of whether it is system was that each state should have two Senators right or wrong to be precise in one’s mathematics and regardless of the number of people living in it. For whether a further provision should allow the Boundary instance, Rhode Island is tiny compared with California, Commission to say that where there is an overriding which is larger economically, politically and in every further concern, such as a geographical, cultural or other sense than a large number of countries in the political concern, further leniency or flexibility should world, but the two states only get two Senators in be allowed. What happens if the Boundary Commission, the Senate. In the British system, we do not have quite when it starts its process in the south of England and the same checks and balances—particularly if the House works up through the country or, in the case of Wales, of Lords is dominated by a coalition in which two starts in the south and goes north—or starts in the parties manage effectively to have control of both Houses, north and goes south—decides that the first of the Executive and of the legislature. 20 constituencies are best representing 95% of the quota? I do praise some of the things that the Government Does it then have to start filling in some 105% of that have done since they took office, such as setting up the quota? The danger is that it will end up having to start Backbench Business Committee. I hope that the whole all over again. Every time there is a new Boundary of business could be handed over to a business committee, Commission, it will have to start all over again, because because I think that the role of the legislature needs to there will be knock-on effects from one constituency to be reinforced so that the Executive is held better to another. account. 1041 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1042 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Various arguments have been advanced for cutting time on the Bill at this stage? I am sure that the hon. the number of MPs from 650 to 600, one of which Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) would be makes international comparisons. I have heard the Deputy arguing for that if he were in opposition. Prime Minister use that argument several times but it is completely fallacious. It is wrong to compare the British Chris Bryant: There has been absolutely no pre-legislative Parliament with the Spanish Parliament, for example, scrutiny. This has not been adumbrated in anybody’s because the vast majority of Spain’s Ministers do not sit manifesto and it has not been available for anybody to in the Spanish Parliament. The Executive are not created consider in public. There has been no public consultation out of the Parliament. Similarly, in other countries—the and no consultation between political parties. Of course, United States being the most obvious example—the therefore, there should be provision for each clause to Executive do not spring from the legislature, so there be considered for at least one day on the Floor of the are not 95 people who automatically have a second job House, as this is a major constitutional Bill. I am sorry as a Minister or a Parliamentary Private Secretary. That if Government Members are arguing the exact opposite comparison is therefore inappropriate. of what they used to, but my point remains—international If we are to make any kind of comparison, we must comparisons are inappropriate. bear in mind differences in the level of devolution or The Deputy Prime Minister has also sought to suggest federalisation from one country to another. Comparing that we have far too many Members of Parliament the United Kingdom with Germany, for example, is because other countries have far fewer, but the local inappropriate because the Länder has far more significant population per elected member at local authority level powers than any local authority in England and more in other countries is very different: in France it is powers than the Welsh Assembly. 118 and in Germany it is 350, whereas in the United Kingdom it is 2,603. We have to look at the whole set of David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Does the elected officials if we are to have a real impression of hon. Gentleman agree that one of the checks is for the whether we have too many or too few Members of Government to allow ample time for all clauses in a Bill Parliament. I suspect that most voters in this country to be discussed? They have clearly done that on this quite like having a local Member of Parliament who sits occasion, but we will not get to relevant Welsh issues in the House. Of course, if one asks the public, particularly because he has spent the past half hour speaking. if one does so via the Daily Express or the Daily Mail, “Are there too many Members of Parliament?” they will Chris Bryant: Bearing in mind what the hon. Gentleman all answer, “Yes,” but if one asks them, “Should your used to say when he was in opposition, I should have town not have a Member of Parliament?” or, “Should thought that he would support the scrutiny of legislation— your town be combined with another town?” they would and one has to talk to scrutinise legislation. No, we have probably answer, “No, I would prefer to have a local not had enough time to scrutinise the Bill because there constituency Member of Parliament whose name I are four clauses and some schedules on which we have know, who is accessible and whose constituency surgery not had any debate at all. In addition, the Government I can get to.” have tabled 100 pages of amendments that we are going to debate on Monday, which means that we will not be 6pm able to debate issues such as the one that he is interested Glyn Davies: As someone who is fairly new to the in—cutting the number of Ministers. I shall not take House and who is listening to the hon. Gentleman and any lectures from him on how long one should speak in trying to understand exactly what the Opposition want, the House or on how much scrutiny there should be. I should like to ask him a question. He suggests that there should be a day’s debate on every clause. The last Mr Harper: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? clause simply deals with the short title. Is he suggesting that there should be a day’s debate on the short title? Chris Bryant: Of course I will give way to the eminently charming gentleman. Chris Bryant: No. I think that that is a slightly facetious point, but we should have a day to debate a clause that Mr Harper: If the hon. Gentleman thinks that the will reduce the number of Members of Parliament from House requires more time to debate the Bill, why did he 650 to 600, and rejig the boundaries in a way completely vote against the programme motion last week, which different from anything in the past, without any public gave the House more time to debate it? consultation, without the proposal appearing in any public manifesto, and without any consultation across Chris Bryant: The Minister has clearly lost his marbles—it the parties. None the less, the hon. Gentleman makes an was because it did not give us enough time. The way in absolutely fair point: some clauses do not need a whole which the Government have behaved over this Bill has day’s debate. been an absolute shoddy mistake. They have consistently refused to provide enough time for us to debate the David T. C. Davies: I thank the hon. Gentleman for issues. [Interruption.] No, we did not vote against more giving way, although I do not want to extend the debate time—we voted against the programme motion and we for too long. He must know perfectly well that two will continue to vote against such programme motions manifestos said that the number of MPs would be because we want to be able to do this job properly. reduced and that the reduction now proposed is a much smaller one, which should be something that he could Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): Does the support. hon. Gentleman agree that, given the lack of pre-legislative scrutiny and the lack of cross-party consensus or discussions Chris Bryant: No. I am not sure whether the hon. that are usual with this type of Bill, it is even more Gentleman was present at the beginning of my important to have the necessary debates and to spend comments—he was doubtless opposing the Government’s 1043 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1044 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Chris Bryant] Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): I have listened to the hon. Gentleman’s argument against measures on S4C—but as I now apparently have to 600 seats, but I do not think that I understand his rehearse the argument for him, I can tell him that I was argument for 650 seats, other than that it would give the making the point that the number has been arrived at Labour party an advantage. Is that a partisan argument? for entirely partisan reasons. It is not the number that was in the Liberal Democrat manifesto, nor the one Chris Bryant: Actually, staying at 650 gives the that was in the Conservative manifesto. Conservative party more of an advantage. I was about to argue that we should not cut the David T. C. Davies: It is higher. number of seats. I would prefer a situation in which we Chris Bryant: Yes, it is higher than both those figures, did not fix the total at any particular number: that is because it manages to reach a level that hits the number why we have framed our amendment as we have. In of Labour seats but not the number of Liberal Democrat addition, it is important not to cut the number of seats. That is why the number has been chosen, and that Members. is why I oppose it. Tristram Hunt: Is not the solution, as the Political Dr John Pugh (Southport) (LD): I want to calm and Constitutional Reform Committee has heard, to things down a bit, and take the hon. Gentleman back to discuss what the nature of a Member is, to seek an the technical point that he made before. He asked what optimum number of Members and then to introduce a would happen if the Boundary Commission dealt with rolling programme that moves towards that number, a whole pile of seats first, got to about 95% and was rather than an overnight slashing from 650 to 600 for perfectly satisfied, and then found, because it had to nakedly partisan reasons? stick to the number 600, that it got into real difficulty and did some very odd things later on. If that was an Chris Bryant: That is wholly my view. That solution issue for the Boundary Commission, we might think gets around the problems, to which I have referred, for that some advice would have been given on it. Has he the parts of the Union that are more dramatically asked the Boundary Commission what its advice is on affected than others, and it would be entirely in keeping that point? with the tradition of this House, which is that we proceed by evolution rather than revolution. Chris Bryant: The Boundary Commission will do I could understand the argument for reducing the what it is told to do. If the law of the land changes, the number of seats from 650 to 600 if over the past Boundary Commission’s powers and duties are determined 50 years the number of seats had dramatically increased by that legislation and it will do what it is required in relation to the electorate. In actual fact, however, the to do. number of seats has grown by 3% and the number of Dr Pugh: Whatever the Boundary Commission is voters has increased by 25%, so if hon. Members were asked to do, it can say that some tasks are more technically being honest they would say, “As we agree that the difficult than others. The hon. Gentleman suggests that number of seats should go with the number of voters, this is a technically difficult, almost insuperable task. If we should argue for more seats, rather than fewer.” that is the case, it can say so, can it not? In addition, the job has completely and utterly changed over the past few years. In a previous debate, for which Chris Bryant: No, I am not saying that the task is not all hon. Members were present, the hon. Member insuperable. Of course it would be possible to draw up for Epping Forest referred to casework, which is a the constituencies in the way proposed, but why should concept in modern politics— one constituency then end up with 95% of the average electorate and another with 105%? [Interruption.] The Mark Tami: “Social work”, she said. Deputy Leader of the House keeps on referring to the Rhondda. He obviously has some desire either to do Chris Bryant: Indeed. As my hon. Friend says, she down the people of the Rhondda or to visit the Rhondda, referred to it as social work. but I am not extending an invitation to him. I have always believed that the job of a modern Member is very different from that of somebody 40 or Mr Heath: I wonder why the hon. Gentleman believes even 30 years ago. For a start, the advent of 24-hour that the difference between 95% and 105% is a gross news, e-mails, which arrive at 3 o’clock in the morning, intrusion, yet that the difference between my constituency mobile telephony and all the rest of it has meant that with its 82,000 possible voters, and his constituency the electorate expect us to be available far more and to with its 52,000, is perfectly all right and needs to be return their phone calls, messages, e-mails and letters preserved. far more frequently. Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman should not The number of letters on a policy issue that a Member misrepresent what I have said. He knows perfectly well would have received in the 1960s in any one week would that I have never said that there should be a divergence have been fewer than 10. Today, I guess that most between his constituency with 82,000 possible voters, Members receive in excess of 250 letters a week on and mine with 51,000. I am wholeheartedly in favour of policy issues or on an individual casework issue. If we greater equalisation. I have argued that for a long time, want fewer Members, but our answer to that is to give and the Labour party and its predecessors, going way them more members of staff, thereby increasing their back to the Chartists in the 1840s, argued for greater expenses, we will actually deracinate Members from the equalisation of seat sizes. But if we are to move towards communities that they serve. We will make them less equalisation do we add, on top of that, the idea of a accessible to voters, and that is why I believe it is wrong fixed number of seats? That is what I am querying. to cut the number of Members. 1045 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1046 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill John Mann: If my hon. Friend is getting only Chris Bryant: Who knows what ambitions the Deputy 250 communications a week, he needs to enhance his Prime Minister has? Perhaps he will be looking not for a communication profile. Liberal Democrat seat but for another kind of seat, My intervention is on a different issue, however. My come the next general election. hon. Friend suggested accurately that the arbitrary My hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw excoriated number of 600 is an attempt to gerrymander the boundaries me for having only 250 pieces of communication. I against Labour. That is clearly the attempt, but does he meant 250 letters a week; the letter, of course, is almost think that the Government have done their mathematics something from the past these days. The vast majority in a sufficiently competent way? If we do an analysis of the correspondence from my constituency comes in throughout the country and think of the rationale that the form of a telephone call, text message, Facebook the Boundary Commission might have chosen to adopt— message or through some other means. had it been given any under the Bill—we find that there Most members of the public expect a reply from the is obviously an issue in Wales and Northern Ireland, MP, not from some flunky or somebody working in the but that in Scotland the Liberals and the Scottish office for free. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Nationalists have the smaller average seats, not Labour. Bristol West (Stephen Williams) is picking me up on the Throughout England, the area where it is easiest to blur word “flunky”. There are no flunkies working in my boundaries— office—nor, for that matter, do I ever use staff who have offered to work for free. It is one of the shames of this The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means Parliament that so many MPs should have to survive on (Dawn Primarolo): Order. The hon. Gentleman is making the free staffing provided by interns. We ought to be an intervention, not a speech, and I think that the hon. moving towards having paid staff. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) has got the gist of Another argument that I would adduce in favour of the point. not cutting the numbers from 650 to 600 is that over the past 50 years Parliament has become more and more Chris Bryant: That was a very good intervention the place where career politicians intend to come, stay none the less, Ms Primarolo. and make their livelihood. Many people have a much more diverse history than just having worked as a The Second Deputy Chairman: I do not need to be special adviser or for a political party before coming picked up on that. I am not commenting at all on here. The hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) is a whether interventions are good or not; I simply point former GP; in fact, I think that she still serves as one. As out that the convention of the House is that they should we know, the hon. Member for Corby (Ms Bagshawe) is be relatively brief. That is all. an author—and, of course, a former member of the Labour party. She has a diverse career behind her. David T. C. Davies: On a point of order, Ms Primarolo. Many Welsh MPs here are desperate to discuss clause Ms Bagshawe: We all make mistakes. 11, which relates to the National Assembly for Wales. The Government have kindly given us enough time to Chris Bryant: I am not sure whether the hon. Lady is discuss the clause, yet it seems quite possible that despite referring to her literature or her former party membership. the Government’s generosity we will not get to it. Will she advise me on how I, and other Welsh MPs who care This Parliament has survived because of some of the about Wales, will be able to discuss it? mavericks and eccentrics, and the diversity of Members that it has managed to bring in here. If we reduce the numbers from 650 to 600, it will be the mavericks and The Second Deputy Chairman: Frankly, that is not a the independents who will be disappearing and we will point of order. The programme motion has been agreed have more of the party political placepeople. That is a by the House and Members are proceeding through the problem. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Rochford Bill, discussing what they consider to be important. As and Southend East (James Duddridge) is saying, rather long as they remain in order, they can do so. I am sure unkindly, that I am such a placeman. [Interruption.] that the hon. Gentleman is grateful for having put his The Minister is trying to help by asking me what I think point on the record. Perhaps we can now return to I am. I do not think that this clause is where we go into amendment 364. what I think I am: the meaning of life would be a bit too complicated, and it would go a little wide of the debate, Chris Bryant: My hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw Ms Primarolo. (John Mann) made a good point about how seats might be doled out in the different parts of the Union. It is interesting to analyse what might happen to Sheffield: it 6.15 pm would be quite difficult to construct a Liberal Democrat That is true historically, too. Some of the great people seat for Sheffield, Hallam that would survive—so there who have come through this House have never been is a silver lining somewhere in the legislation. Ministers, and have never spoken from the Dispatch Some communities will end up without their own Box. Samuel Plimsoll, who was much excoriated by his representation if we cut the number of seats from 650 to party Whips and much hated, acted as an independent—but 600 and insist on mathematical perfection. That is a probably ended up saving more lives through the legislation problem. that he drove through the House than many of us will everbeableto. Dr Pugh: Given what the hon. Gentleman just said I will just say—although I hate to get a small cheer—one about Sheffield, the gerrymandering is extraordinarily final thing. [HON.MEMBERS: “Hooray!”] You see, they bad, is it not? are like Pavlov’s dogs—just give them the line and they 1047 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1048 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill will slobber. I understand why the Prime Minister went the gerrymandering—there is no other word to use—of into the general election saying that he wanted to make three Scottish seats. That has occurred through a limit politics cheaper and that cutting the number of Members of 13,000 sq km being plucked out of the sky to allow of Parliament would somehow restore British democracy. Ross, Skye and Lochaber, and probably also Caithness, I understand the background against which that happened; Sutherland and Easter Ross, to be seen as exceptional. all of us who were in the previous Parliament know the If we equalise constituencies it could be regrettable scars that this House bears because of the expenses for such communities, but we want electorates of a scandal, which still rumbles on in its own way. However, similar size. it is wrong always to go down the populist line in In fairness to the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris matters of constitutional decorum, particularly the number Bryant), I think that equal constituencies will mean that of Members of Parliament. If we have a perfect we divide the country up into 10 or 15 different areas, mathematical equation for delineating the boundaries, from which we can draw up the 600 seats, rather than we will end up making MPs less accessible to the public suddenly realising when we get to the middle of Scotland and less able to influence and be involved in decisions in that we are 10 or 15 seats short. I fully accept the need their local communities. It will be more difficult for to equalise electorates, and it is greatly to be regretted ordinary members of the public to understand who that we are not doing that for all seats. It seems that a their MP is and have a relationship with them. Far from rather grubby little compromise has been put in place. improving democracy in this country, that will undermine In the modern, technological era, I disagree with the it further. idea that the Western Isles and Orkney and Shetland, the two smallest seats in the UK, should be protected. Roger Williams: If an electorate of 85,000 is reduced Orkney and Shetland was part of the Wick Burghs to 75,000, how does that make it more difficult for a constituency at one time during the last century, and the constituent to contact his MP? Surely every MP should Western Isles were part of the Ross and Cromarty and be equally available to their constituents. Inverness-shire constituencies. It is a bogus argument Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman represents an area that those constituencies somehow have great historical in Wales part of which, I guess, may end up in a relevance. constituency that is very large. Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman Roger Williams: It used to be larger. said that in his view there had been a grubby little compromise. That is quite a statement to make. Would Chris Bryant: That did not make it better, and it was he like to explain and elaborate on exactly what he larger in an era when the expectations of a Member of means? Parliament to be present and available were much reduced. There was a time when MPs, when they visited their constituencies—once a year—were greeted with a brass Mr Field: I believe that the compromise was perhaps band. That is not true today. [Interruption.] It is certainly made to keep the Scottish nationalists happy— not true for me, and I can see that it is not true for [Interruption.] Well, the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan anybody else either. an Iar (Mr MacNeil) represents virtually no constituents in this House. I respect that, but we are living in a Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): I have read the technological age of e-mails and so on, and I do not hon. Gentleman’s book, and I think that he is referring agree with the notion that he should maintain the to Stafford Cripps, who was greeted by a brass band privileged position of representing just 23,000 constituents, when he arrived at Bristol Temple Meads. The Member when many of us have to represent not only our statutory who currently represents Bristol Temple Meads is certainly 70,000 or so but a significant number of non-UK not greeted in that way. nationals. There is a perfectly good case to be made, but it should not override the idea of equalising communities. Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman is right: I am referring to Stafford Cripps. The book is not one that is Mr MacNeil: In one respect I would love to help the available in all good bookshops, but there is a copy in hon. Gentleman, of course, because I would be quite the Library should any hon. Member wish to read it. happy for there to be no MPs from Scotland in this I want to end with the words of Jim Callaghan, a House at all. In the meantime, while we have to have former Prime Minister and a Member who represented that situation, I remind him that my constituency is the south Wales: length of Wales. He is very welcome to come with me to “Constituencies are not merely areas bounded by a line on a the Western Isles and explain his views to all my constituents map; they are living communities with a unity, a history and a whom he might meet on his visit. personality of their own.”—[Official Report, 19 June 1969; Vol. 785, c. 742.] Mr Field: I shall certainly take the hon. Gentleman That has always been how we have done things in this up on that. On the first part of what he said—he and I House and in this country, and I believe that it is how both. we should continue to do them in future. That is why I have moved this amendment, and why I hope that we will not reduce the number of seats from 650 to a fixed Mark Tami: I listened to what the hon. Gentleman number of 600. said about the three seats in Scotland. In Wales, there could be a seat in the middle of the country that, as I Mr Mark Field: I must confess that I totally accept said earlier, could stretch from one side of Wales to the the need to equalise electorates, which is why I have other with a very sparse population. Why is it okay for tabled amendments in a later group, which I suspect we that to be taken into account of in the case of Scotland, will not get to, suggesting that we leave out of the Bill but not Wales? 1049 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1050 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Mr Field: I entirely agree, and I am not defending electoral reform seem to believe that AV is a form of that element of the Bill. electoral reform. It is not—it is the stupid person’s Neither can I see any justification for a reduction in electoral reform. The only effective electoral reform is the size of the House of Commons from 650 to 600. proportional representation. The somewhat bogus argument that it will save £12 million a year is certainly outweighed by the fact that the Stephen Williams: If the hon. Gentleman thinks that alternative vote referendum will cost some £80 million AV is such a mistake, why did he use it to elect his own to £100 million. It is also argued that our House is one leader, and why was it in the Labour party’s election of the largest legislatures, but that argument is destroyed manifesto? by the fact that this Government alone have already massively increased the size of the House of Lords, by Austin Mitchell: The leader now sees the benefits of some 56 Members since May. They are now looking to the alternative vote, but I do not. It is not a halfway stuff a whole lot more unelected Lords in there, and the house to a system of proportional representation. Only proposals to make the other House even larger are an proportional representation will allow us to manage the absolute disgrace, at least before there is any reform. It emerging multi-party system in the confines of the is entirely regrettable that there is not to be reform of electoral system. We cannot do it with the current the House of Commons and the House of Lords as part system, but I do not want to be detoured from my main of the same package. purpose. I fear, given the comments that a number of colleagues The second unattractive feature of the Bill is clause 9, have made, that we have not been able to scrutinise the to which amendments 259 and 260 apply. It is even Bill properly because we have run out of time under the more offensive because it is the “Castration of the programme motion. It will therefore be the House of Commons” clause. It states: Lords that takes up the important work of examining “The number of constituencies in the United Kingdom shall the constitutional impact of what is being suggested. be 600.” The hon. Member for Rhondda is right that nowhere in It does not say “590”, “620” or “650”, but “600.” It any manifesto was there a commitment to 600 seats, would be interesting to know how the Government and all three parties committed to move to a wholly or reached that figure. Did they have a séance, as they did largely elected House of Lords at the earliest possible for the scale of the cuts that were announced this opportunity. That now seems a long way off. I particularly afternoon: “£240 billion, £120 billion; £600 billion”? regret that because it has always been the Liberal Did they split the difference, or did they, as my hon. Democrats’ position to democratise, and to make the Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) House of Lords accountable to the electorate. They suggested—I think rightly—arrive at a figure that will now hold the novel constitutional principle that the lose Labour more seats than the Liberal Democrats? House of Lords should somehow reflect the voting at The Liberals had a smaller figure in their manifesto, the last election. That suggests that 200 or so peers will but it was proposed in the light of a transfer to STV, be added to the House of Lords—a significant number which the Liberal party has always supported, with of whom will come from the Liberal Democrat party. three, four or five-Member constituencies, in which the I hope that, in so far as more people are to be added Liberals have a greater chance of getting somebody to the House of Lords, close scrutiny will be paid to elected. The smaller figure was not proposed for first ensure that former Members of the Commons who past the post or AV. The Government wanted to cut were caught up in the expenses scandal are not rewarded 10% of the seats. Why? Was it an economy measure? with a life peerage. As we have seen from the difficulty Was it to capitalise on the discontent that The Daily with the three peers who have been suspended and the Telegraph’s revelations about expenses produced, and to two Conservative peers who face the courts in the next say, “We’re getting rid of these greedy so-and-sos and few months, there is no mechanism for getting rid of reducing the number of people who sponge on the people from the House of Lords. Yet, as part of the public purse”? Was it that sort of populism? Is that how constitutional reform, we are introducing some concept they arrived at the figure? We need to know before we of giving our constituents a recall mechanism to get rid can make a judgment. of Members of the Commons. The position is incongruous. Until the House of Lords has been sorted out—and 6.30 pm certainly for so long as we stuff yet more unelected Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): My hon. Friend said peers into the other place, which we have already done that the Liberal Democrats had always supported the since May and will continue to do—it would be wrong single transferable vote. Could I remind him that he to reduce the size of the Commons. tabled an amendment recently on STV that they voted against? In fact, they should clearly change their position Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby) (Lab): I rise to and say that they now oppose STV. speak about amendments 259 and 260, which I tabled and hope to put to the vote at the end of the debate. Austin Mitchell: The Liberals are in a determined Two features of the “General Gerrymander and Electoral rush to sign their own death warrant. I cannot judge Jiggery-Pokery” Bill are the most offensive. The first is them. I am trying to help them, because people should the alternative vote, which is a Liberal benefit plan—Liberal not sign their own death warrant while the balance of Democrats hope that if we get the alternative vote, they the mind is disturbed. I am trying to take power of will be everybody’s second preference. Fortunately, the attorney over them. The Liberal leader’s constituency— alternative vote is unlikely to be carried in the referendum—I Sheffield, Hallam—will be abolished under the Bill, so shall certainly vote against it. It is rather sad that many a winnable seat in Sheffield will go. He might have told people with whom I have worked over the years for his party, “At this stage in the coalition, chaps, we need 1051 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1052 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Austin Mitchell] overrule the wishes of the Members. I want Members to be stronger and the Executive to be weaker, but this a futile gesture. I want you to agree to give up your seats measure will have the opposite effect. for this Bill.” It could be that that went on, although I do not know the internal processes of the Liberals. Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): Although I Some of my best friends are Liberals, but I will not completely support the reduction in the number of speak for them. I am trying to help them by tabling Members, I have huge sympathy with the point that the amendments such as the one to which my hon. Friend hon. Gentleman makes about the Executive, because of referred and amendment 259, which would keep the the lack of voice. Members of the Executive do not number of MPs at 650. speak on local constituency matters, and I would therefore welcome any attempts to reduce Executive numbers to Graham Stringer: Does my hon. Friend agree that the increase the voice of Back Benchers proportionally. single biggest weakness of the British constitution is that elected Members of the House of Commons do Austin Mitchell: If the number of Members is reduced, not have enough power in relation to the Executive? the voice of the constituencies will be proportionally Clause 9 will further diminish the power of elected less in this House, and that is another argument for representatives. keeping the 650, as I propose. What will happen if the Executive are reduced in this House? Will we have more Austin Mitchell: That is absolutely right and I agree Executive appointments in the Lords? Will we appoint absolutely with my hon. Friend. The real problem with more of those grovelling chief executives and chairmen the British constitution is that we do not have one. The who wrote to The Daily Telegraph to support the constitution in this country is what the Government can Government’s plans for cuts at the expense of their get away with. If they can get away with clause 9, which customers, saying in effect, “It doesn’t matter how weakens democracy and the Commons and strengthens much damage you inflict on our customers and on the Executive, they can get away with more or less demand for our businesses, we support the Government.” anything, with the willing concurrence of the supine That is clearly a plea for knighthoods or Government Liberals, who are supporting a measure that will weaken jobs. Will the Government respond to that by creating them—hopefully—for their own execution. posts outside Parliament for these people? How will There is no mystique to how I arrived at the figure of they reconstitute the Executive to make them less strong 650 for amendment 259. I just put it in. That is the proportionally in a reduced House? We have heard number of MPs now and the Commons will function nothing on that. efficiently with it. There used to be 700 MPs in the Secondly, the reduction would reduce the pool of 19th century when the Irish were here. They had to fit in talent from which to select Ministers and to make all a Chamber the size of this one, which seats about the other contributions that MPs make. Heaven knows, 420—fortunately, most of them did not come—but the pool is not all that big now. We do not have all that 650 is a good working total, which is why I chose it. much talent, and certainly not the level that we used to The consequence of having 600 MPs, as proposed in have—[Interruption.] Well, we have some, especially clause 9, is that the redistribution will be more brutal from Humberside. Our contribution is big, but it is not and more massive. It will be a blitzkrieg of a redistribution, enough. I would like a bigger pool of talent in the but there will be no democratic controls on it. The scale House to pick Members from. of the redistribution is determined by the size of the House. Most importantly, the change would reduce the service that we provide to our constituents. I have always found Chris Bryant: I just wanted to correct a fact that my constituency work exciting and interesting, and a solace hon. Friend gave. He said that there were 700 Members for my failure to be appointed to any ministerial job—or in the 19th century owing to the Irish, but in fact, the my ability to mess up any ministerial appointment that I only time that there were more than 700 Members was have been offered, which has always been very short-lived from 1918 to 1922. That redistribution was brought because of the joys of constituency work. I find it very about by the Liberals. satisfactory—

Austin Mitchell: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s Mr MacNeil: May I take this opportunity to place it intervention. I took history at university, but my thesis on the record that I would have loved to see the hon. was on the Whig party in opposition from 1812 to 1830, Gentleman as a Fisheries Minister at one time? which was very good preparation for being in the Labour party in the 1980s and 1990s. I did not get as far as the Austin Mitchell: I was hoping that the SNP would Irish settlement of 1922, and I always regret that. I shall appoint me Fisheries Minister for Scotland, but that go to him for some tutorials. He is obviously better post would have been a little difficult to handle from informed than I am. Grimsby. I never even achieved the rank of PPS to the I arrived at the figure of 650 because that seems to Minister—[Interruption.] I apologise, Ms Primarolo. I work well, and I do not want a reduction. As my hon. was led astray. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham There is a genuine issue about the service that we Stringer) pointed out, a reduction in the number of provide to our constituents. I know that we have changed MPs and a smaller House will make the Executive over the years from senators to servants of our constituency, proportionately stronger. I would like to see some proposals and I know that the amount of work has steadily from the Government to reduce the number of Executive increased. That is a necessary development, because appointments. There are more than 100, which means our constituents want to be heard more. We no longer that they have a huge bought vote in the House to have the same sort of subservient, quiet and loyal 1053 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1054 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill electorate that would vote for parties and did not want be. We have to face the fact that the state is interacting their voice to be heard. People want to be heard and with people and imposing things on them more than they want us to listen to them. They want to communicate ever before. with us and they want us to raise the problems that they Let us look at the flood of problems that we have had raise with us. That is the job, and we would be less able with the Child Support Agency, and the fact that a to do that if there were fewer of us here. special hotline has had to be created for MPs, so that they can get through to Belfast and have incomprehensible Mr Heath: I am bemused by this concept that the conversations. [Interruption.] I appreciate the difficulties figure of 600 would prevent Members of Parliament that the constituents of my hon. Friend the Member for from being able to represent their constituents adequately, Foyle (Mark Durkan) face doing that kind of job—if I because the electoral quota suggested—about 76,000— could make it easier, I would—but it creates an enormous already applies to a third of the House, give or take amount of extra work for us. The same is true of tax 5%. Is the hon. Gentleman saying that a third of Members credits, which are extremely complex. There is all that are incapable of representing their constituents properly? interaction, and believe me, Ms Primarolo, there will be a lot more interaction as a result of the cuts announced Austin Mitchell: The bigger the size of the constituency today, as people come to us with problems to do with and the electorate, the harder it is to represent them benefits, invalidity and cutting off job support. That is adequately. It may be that evening up constituencies going to create a lot more work for us in our constituencies leads to areas being more adequately represented, because and a lot more work in our surgeries. those areas will have smaller constituencies, but in my case it will mean a bigger constituency, and many of us Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): I just want to reinforce are struggling to do the job now. my hon. Friend’s point. He has to ring Belfast about For example, the amount of mail is increasing all the CSA cases, but he is not the only Member who has to time. Not so long ago, I read the biography of Hugh ring people in remote parts who know nothing of the Gaitskell by Philip Williams, which was about Gaitskell situations that we are dealing with. We in Northern in the 1950s. It said that Gaitskell’s papers showed that Ireland experience that regularly when we deal with tax in 1958, when he was the MP for Leeds South East, he credits. In fairness, the conversations that we have with got 50 letters a month from his constituents. I get Frank in Preston are comprehensible; it is the other 50 letters every couple of days, and that is in addition to officials who are the problem. all the e-mails, surgery visits and stoppings in the street in Grimsby, with people asking whether I will ask this or do that, and so on, all of which I have to scribble 6.45 pm down. That must mean that in a larger constituency it is Austin Mitchell: I agree absolutely with that. more difficult to serve everyone in it. That is an obvious A number of Members would like to see us as some fact. Indeed, it is getting difficult to do the job adequately kind of intellectual elite, or as the senators that we with 650 Members. We need more and more staff. perhaps used to be in the 19th century. The fact that we Fortunately, we have been given more staff, but it is not are now the street cleaners and the sewage cleaners of enough, although it depends on the seriousness with the constitutions—the slaves in the galley of the ship of which one does the job. state, albeit somewhat differently whipped—offends their dignity, but that is the job as it is. Mrs Laing: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. Nobody could do the job more seriously than he, Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) but right at this moment he is representing his constituents (Lab): Does my hon. Friend agree that it is unreasonable in that other way. He is once again confusing his job—the to deride one-to-one pastoral care of constituents as job of us all—as a social worker, providing pastoral social work, partly because it necessarily informs our care and advice, with the job of representing our work as MPs but also because the more ordinary constituents as part of the democratic process. He cannot constituents meet their MP, whether at church, in an possibly argue that a man of his calibre, or the calibre of advice session or in the supermarket, the more they will anyone sitting in the Chamber right now, cannot cope respect us? with a few thousand more constituents to represent. Austin Mitchell: I absolutely agree with my hon. Austin Mitchell: I have to say that I cannot. If the Friend. There has been a lot of damaging criticism and work is done properly and the job is properly tackled, it abuse of MPs as a result of the revelations in The Daily is difficult. Indeed, I cannot see how people can have Telegraph last year, and some of that was, frankly, outside jobs and be here. scandalous. It has lowered us in the public’s estimation, but people still turn to us. They need us for all the Mr David: Does my hon. Friend agree that the important problems that they come up against. We are the defenders point is not just that we take up individual cases, but of last resort. We are the ombudsmen for our constituents. that having that direct contact with our constituents influences our work as parliamentarians? Chris Bryant: But is it not also true that, especially for some of the most vulnerable people in some of the most Austin Mitchell: My hon. Friend is exactly right. vulnerable communities, we are the only advocates they Many of the ideas that I raised, the questions that I can afford, whether we are advocating their cause here have asked and the things that I have debated in Westminster or, for example, at their bank? We represent them in all Hall come from constituents and constituency problems. kinds of circumstances that no one would have conceived That is the nature of democracy—that is how it has to of as part of the job 50 years ago. 1055 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1056 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Austin Mitchell: I agree with my hon. Friend absolutely; Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): I shall he has made that point very well. That is another good speak to my amendments 67 and 68. Amendment 67 title for MPs: the advocate of last resort—the people’s would substitute the figure of 600 for 585. I tabled the advocate. Well, in my case, I would be their last resort amendment because at the last general election the because of the inarticulacy of my advocacy! But that is Conservative party manifesto, on which I was privileged the nature of the job, and it is no use complaining or to be re-elected, referred to 585 seats. I have to say that I saying that it is beneath our dignity to tackle all these had some reservations about that part of our manifesto, problems. It is no use doing as Enoch Powell used to do because I felt that it introduced a degree of inflexibility when anyone raised an issue— where, as we have heard from the Political and Constitutional Affairs Committee and the Boundary The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. I realise that Commission, it is desirable to leave the Boundary the hon. Gentleman is making some broader points to Commission with some flexibility in considering these support his amendment, which proposes 650 Members, important issues. From the outset of this Parliament, and if he could return to that subject I would be however, I have been trying to get a straight answer—either enormously grateful. from the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) Austin Mitchell: I am sorry, Ms Primarolo. or the Deputy Leader of the House—to the question I should have said that it is much easier to do this job why the figure of 600 was chosen. with 650 MPs, and that it will be much more difficult if I take very seriously the allegation made today by the the clause passes unamended and reduces the membership hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) that the of the House to 600. That is the essence of my argument. figure of 600 was chosen for politically partisan reasons We are straining to do the job as it is, and we have had rather than for objective reasons pertaining to good to take on more staff. We shall need even more staff if government. I look forward to the Government responding the number of MPs is reduced. It is difficult to do our in detail to the question of why 600, rather than 585, job, but it is well worth doing. which was in our manifesto, was chosen. I note that the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) is not yet in Mrs Main: I had a degree of sympathy with the hon. his place to speak to his amendment 74. It is a corresponding Gentleman when he was talking about the strength of amendment from the Liberal Democrats, calling for a the Executive, but if he has time to make TV programmes reduction to 500, which was the exact figure that the and do other things outside the House, I cannot believe Liberal Democrats included in their manifesto, on which that he does not have a spare moment, or that a reduction the hon. Gentleman was re-elected to this House. This in the number of MPs would not be feasible. is a very serious issue. Austin Mitchell: Some of us labour under the misfortune The suggestion that the figure of 600 has been plucked of being better looking than others—[Laughter.] We out of the air has rather damaging connotations for the might appear more on television for that reason, although credibility of the coalition Government. Let us examine my days as a television hero are long gone. The essence the difference between 600 and 585. With 600 seats, of my argument is that this demand comes to us from there would be roughly 75,000 to 76,000 electors per the people. This is not about us putting ourselves forward constituency. With 585—in other words, a reduction of to do the work; the demand comes from the people and 2.5% on the 600 figure—an average of 1,800 or so they have to be served. electors would be added to every constituency. Is anyone in government arguing that it is on account of that Phil Wilson: The people who support the idea of crucial increase of another 1,800 electors per constituency reducing the number of MPs from 650 to 600 say that it that we have opted for the 600 figure rather than 585—itself will save about £12 million, but even they are saying that a conveniently round number in the sense that it was a we will need more resources to look after our constituents 10% reduction on the present size of the House? and that we will therefore need more staff. That £12 million Mr Heath rose— will disappear overnight to pay for the extra resources that we are going to need. Mr Chope: I give way to the hon. Gentleman if he wishes to intervene. Austin Mitchell: My hon. Friend is right. We cannot economise on democracy. We are a basic part of our Mr Heath: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, but democracy. We are the protectors of the people and we there is nothing magical about the figure of 600, just as cannot economise on that because the demand comes there is nothing magical about 585. One was a from them, and they have to be served. That is our job. 10% reduction; the other a round figure reduction of Some people argue that 650 MPs is too many and that 50. The figure is not magical; it is simply an arbitrary this legislature is bigger than others. Yes, it is bigger figure that reduces the size of the House in a way that I than many other legislatures, but we have to bear in believe is consistent with the public mood and the needs mind the fact that most other systems are federal. In of this House. other words, countries such as Australia, Canada, Germany and the United States have elected representatives at Mr Chope: The hon. Gentleman says that it is an several levels of government. We do not. We are the arbitrary figure; I am pleased that he concedes that. He only elected representatives who can act for the people says that it is consistent with the public mood, so let us in that way. That is why the figure of 650 appears in my examine that proposition and let us hope that he will amendment and why there should be no reduction. The provide some evidence for it when he responds to this proposed reduction in clause 9, which my amendment debate in due course. He also says that the figure is would stop, is based on a contempt for MPs and the consistent with the needs of this House. Where is the work that they do. I want to reject that contempt. evidence for that? Why should this House comprise 1057 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1058 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill 600 rather than 585 Members? If, by referring to the membership and size as a single reform package, given public mood, the hon. Gentleman means the public’s that there is bound to be a reduction at some time in the concern about the costs of Parliament, why at the same future? The fact that Whips are running around giving time as reducing the size of this House are we merrily Members information illustrates our current problem. increasing the number of people in the other place, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Mr Chope: As so often, the hon. Gentleman has Westminster (Mr Field) asked? Indeed, as he told us, made a fundamental point. Given that the Government the number has already increased by more than the have not been listening to what has been said on both proposed reduction here. sides of the Chamber throughout our debates, I hope The Government are proposing to reduce the number that the other place will concentrate the Government’s of Members of Parliament by 50, but they have already mind by taking control of these important issues and increased the number of Members in the other House insisting that piecemeal constitutional legislation of the by well over 50—getting on for 60—and there is a sort that we are discussing is not the answer to the prospect of substantial further increases. Where is the country’s problems, does not accord with the public case for that? How can increasing the size of the unelected mood, and is cynical in the extreme. I hope that the Bill, House at considerable additional public expense, while which has been subject to vicious timetabling and much at the same time reducing the size of the elected House, of which will not be discussed in this Chamber, will be accord with the public mood? well and truly filleted when it reaches the other place. James Wharton (Stockton South) (Con): I have a Ian Lucas: The hon. Gentleman is making an important great deal of sympathy with my hon. Friend’s argument speech. Does he agree that what the public want is a about the House of Lords, but surely the fact that one straightforward approach from politicians of all parties, House is currently moving in the wrong direction does democratic accountability and an honest, considered not mean that we should not move in the right direction. discussion about amendments to the British constitution? Unfortunately, because we have discussed neither the Mr Chope: My hon. Friend has made a perfectly fair Bill in draft nor issues relating to the House of Lords, point. Let us recall, however, that although the Government we are not having that discussion now. My constituents have consistently argued that the problem is that this are telling me that they believe that the Bill is designed elected House is the largest in the European Union and for party political advantage, which diminishes this in most legislatures, they never point out that the other Chamber and all of us who sit in it. House is larger than this, and that in legislatures not just in the European Union but throughout the globe 7pm the revising or upper Chamber, or the senate, is almost invariably not larger but significantly smaller than the Mr Chope: I take the hon. Gentleman’s point very elected Chamber. Where is the justification for maintaining seriously, because the allegation that there is to be a much larger second Chamber? No international relative constitutional change in order to try to benefit one statistics support the case for very large second Chambers, political party over another is a very serious one. We which seems to be what the Government want to introduce. should not allow that allegation to be spread among the electorate unless there is a justification for it. I am Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman looking for some assurance from my hon. Friends on has made a pertinent point in referring to the size of the Front Bench that there is no political manoeuvring second Chambers in many modern democracies around and that instead this is an objective, non-partisan measure. the world. The point that he has not made is that in So far, however, I have not been convinced that that is most of those instances the second Chamber is elected, so, and I do not think the arguments put from the whereas our second Chamber—which is bigger than Opposition Front Bench and by Back Benchers on both our elected Chamber—is unelected. I consider it a sides of the Chamber have been properly addressed. massive contradiction that the Government are proposing I have made the following point to the Deputy Prime an expansion of the unelected second Chamber and a Minister in many previous discussions in the House. reduction in the size of the legitimate, elected Chamber. There should not be a reduction in the size of the Mr Chope: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for legislature without a pro rata reduction in the size of his support. While he was making his intervention, I the Government. The response I have always received to received a communication from a Whip to the effect that is, “Well, we don’t see the need to do that as the two that, apparently, the coalition Government are committed issues are not connected,” but they are fundamentally to reducing the size of the other House. My response connected. The hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin was “When?” I supported an excellent ten-minute rule Mitchell) and others have already made the point that Bill presented by my hon. Friend the Member for the measures under discussion will give much more Wellingborough (Mr Bone), which proposed doing away power to the Executive and less power to the legislature, with Whips in this Chamber. I am grateful to my hon. and that is totally at odds with what the Prime Minister Friend for the help that he tried to give, but I should be said when he was Leader of the Opposition that he was even more grateful if he could ensure, perhaps through going to do. He said then that he wanted to increase the those on the Front Bench, that it is put on record when power of Members of Parliament and reduce the size we will reach a point at which the second Chamber is and power of the Executive. He said that in the run-up smaller than this elected Chamber. to the general election, and it was even spelled out in terms in the Conservative party manifesto. I hope that Mr Dodds: The hon. Gentleman is making an excellent at the end of this debate we will hear from the Front-Bench point, as did his hon. Friend the Member for Cities of team how they think that these measures are consistent London and Westminster (Mr Field) but is there not a with undertakings given to the electorate both before clear case for presenting the proposals relating to voting, and during the general election campaign. 1059 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1060 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Mr Chope] I tabled my amendment for discussion because in the general election we promised that there would be 585 MPs, What conceivable reason can there be for picking this because we needed that number and it would reduce the arbitrary figure of 600? One rumour circulating among costs of Parliament, but we are now proposing 600. many of my colleagues is that the motivation behind the That means that the costs will be reduced by less than move is to provide another way for the Executive, they would have been had we opted for 585. Given what through party managers and the party machine, to be we have heard today, it appears that when the books able to put the frighteners on reluctant supporters of were opened they were even worse than the worst fears the coalition in both Government parties. Boundary of my right hon. Friends in the Government. Surely it is Commission representatives said in evidence to the inconsistent with the spending decisions taken today to Political and Constitutional Reform Committee that as row back from a figure of 585 to one of 600. That gives a result of these proposals every single constituency in credence to the charge made against the coalition the country will have to have significant boundary Government that, although 600 is an arbitrary figure, it changes. The Whips have peddled a bit of misinformation, is not quite as arbitrary as we might be led to believe, suggesting that if a Member’s constituency already has because it is based on some private work that has been about the right new number of constituents—76,000—then, done suggesting that it might be to the advantage of the “You’llbe all right, Jack,” but the Boundary Commission coalition partners, rather than the Labour party. has made it clear that every single constituency boundary in the country will have to be significantly altered. What Mr David: The hon. Gentleman refers to “private goes with that, of course, is the reselection of Members work”. Would he like to elaborate on who might have of Parliament, and what goes with that is more power undertaken it, because he makes a fascinating point? for the Executive, through the party managers, to try to influence the reselection process. Mr Chope: Ms Primarolo, you have already criticised Although we know that, in fact, the most independent me for speculating, and I am certainly not going to MPs got the best results in the last general election, it speculate. All I am saying is that, before this House does not prevent—[Interruption.] The hon. Member gives approval to a reduction in the number of MPs to a for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) fixed number of 600, the case needs to be made and we is right: she had an outstanding result in the general need something more than an assertion that it is an election, on which I congratulate her, and it had nothing arbitrary figure, that it accords with the public mood whatever to do with her loyalty to her party when it was and that it meets the needs of this House. None of those in government. What she achieved sends a very important things has been established. Apart from anything else, message. I hope that many of my 147 new colleagues even if I agreed with such a move, I would not support it will take that message to heart and realise that even if unless I could see evidence of a pro rata reduction in the this Bill goes through and a change is made to almost number of Ministers and the size of the Executive, and every constituency, those who have stood up fearlessly thereby not a dilution of this House’s ability to hold the on behalf of their constituents will do better at the Executive to account. That is my modest contribution, ballot box, and probably in the reselection process, than but I make it clear that I intend to seek re-election in the those who supinely followed whatever they were told to next Parliament, be there 600 or 585 constituencies, or do by the Whips. That does not alter the fact that this the current number. can be done to put the frighteners on people, because nobody quite knows what the future will bring. John Mann: I wish to address my remarks to amendments 364 and 227. I particularly wish to deal with the principle Phil Wilson: The hon. Gentleman is talking about the of having the number of Members of Parliament fixed chaos that the boundary changes will create, but if this at 600, because I find the fixed number particularly measure goes through, that will not just occur this time objectionable and dangerous. That contradicts the history around; there will be uncertainty every term, not only of this country going back many centuries, because our for all Members in this place, but for our electors. We system has evolved as a majority system. We have had could end up breaking the link, which we all respect, first past the post—although the alternative vote is now between elected politicians and their voters. being suggested—as a way of electing individual Members who represent individual constituencies. The moment Mr Chope: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. A that one moves towards a mathematical fixation determining proposal that has not yet been tabled in an amendment the number of seats, the trip down the slippery slope or a new clause, but perhaps could be tabled on Report towards proportional representation has begun. If the or in the other place, is for a sunset clause, in order to mindset is that there should be an equality of votes, see how the new number works in practice, rather than however that is defined—of course there were important allowing it to go on indefinitely. He may be interested in arguments yesterday about how to define the equality proposing such a sunset clause— of voters and who defines the electorate—and that there should be a mathematical equation, the logical The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means conclusion is that that can be taken further as things (Dawn Primarolo): Order. Shall we concentrate on what ebb and flow. is actually in the Bill—in particular, the issue of the A further conclusion could be drawn from that, because number of MPs—and not on what might occur in the if it is good enough for the House of Commons, it is future? good enough for other parts of the—I use this phrase lightly—British constitution. So the House of Lords Mr Chope: Absolutely, Ms Primarolo. I am sorry that should have a fixed number of seats and Members of I got slightly carried away, as a result of that intervention, that House should be aware of the likely logic that must in anticipating what might happen in the future. follow, whatever that number might be. Some might 1061 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1062 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill suggest—I think I once did—that if there was a fixed 7.15 pm number, it should be as low as 100. It might be a shock John Mann: There has never been an arbitrary to them to go so low. However, the moment one has a mathematical equation. I would be ruled out of order if fixed number, one sets in place a principle that totally I went through an historical analysis of the Great and absolutely contradicts every principle in establishing Reform Act, why Cartwright brought it forward and its constituencies that this country has had before. relationship to the rotten boroughs, including East Retford, This is a critical principle, which seems to have been so I shall not, but the principle was one of expanding overlooked in the debate about the precise numbers. democracy. There was representation before it, but it The moment we make that change, that principle will be was the wrong kind of representation. The principle enshrined for ever. The Deputy Prime Minister made was about participation; it was in the evolution of comparisons to the Great Reform Act 1832. I have participatory democracy that this country led the world— studied that Act quite extensively, not least because the not representative democracy, which we already had. originator, John Cartwright, came up with the concept The definition of democracy was changed by the Great living in the house that I now occupy and would have Reform Act into one of participatory democracy and been a constituent of mine. The original rotten borough has changed over time into one in which all citizens over was East Retford, with 150 voters choosing two Members the age of 18 can participate. of Parliament. Following the recent boundary changes, done on the basis of equalising constituencies across Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): the county of Nottinghamshire, I now have the privilege The hon. Gentleman is talking about mathematics, so of representing Retford, having lost the district of Warsop. here is some maths for him: 70% of MPs in Scotland are That was part of a boundary change under the from the Labour party but they secured only 42% of the current system to numerically equalise as much as possible vote. I know that he is a fair man and I feel the pain of the size of parliamentary seats. I have 20,000 new voters the citizens of Warsop, but does he agree that there is and I lost 10,000. I do not object to that principle. The something wrong with that? 10,000 who went objected vehemently, because they seemed to feel that I was a good and representative The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. We are discussing Member of Parliament, but those whom I now represent the number of Members of Parliament in the House, were delighted to have the opportunity to vote for or not how they got here. against me. That was a major redistribution on the principle of equalising size, but this rotten Bill enshrines in perpetuity the concept of a mathematical arbitrary John Mann: Much though I would love to answer the equation that each constituency will be of the same size, hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete which has fundamental ramifications. Wishart), I shall refrain from doing so. Perhaps we can continue a discussion of such matters in private. Mr Mark Field: I very much agree with what the hon. Gentleman has to say, but does he not recognise that we Mrs Laing: The hon. Gentleman appears to be arguing have already enshrined PR in our political system to that the Committee should not decide how many Members quite a large extent, through the European Parliament of Parliament there ought to be, but if it is not for since 1999, through the way we elect the Scottish Parliament, Parliament to take that decision, who should have the Welsh Assembly and London assembly, and through powertodoso? the way in which local authorities are elected in Scotland? We are going down precisely that path, but it is a slippery slope that we started down quite some time John Mann: The hon. Lady asks an excellent question ago. and I shall give her a precise answer: Parliament should do so on the same basis on which it has been done John Mann: We have had this slippery slope with the before. The principle previously and now, unless this European Parliament and with how we choose its Members. rotten Bill, particularly this part of it, is made into law, Of course, the Deputy Prime Minister, apparently, was is that the House sets an ideal target, but that the once a representative in my area—no one seems to have Boundary Commission independently determines the realised that fact, because such Members are rather boundaries within which each Member will sit using a distant and remote, whether they do a good job or not, set of criteria that relate to the history of the country, because of the size of the constituency. the four nations, the history of England, locality and The interrelationship between individual and electorate the nature of our democracy. But that principle will be that has been the basis of democracy in this country—one thrown out by the Bill. With the Great Reform Act, that other countries have, too often, moved away from there were riots in Nottingham and years of deliberation in their determination to have either proportionality or before the Act was passed and changed the principle to equality and to have mathematical solutions to how one of participatory democracy and the wider franchise. they build a legislature—is the foundation of participative Are we to break that principle after a couple of days of democracy. We are not just a representative democracy truncated debate in the House? Are we to have a principle, in this Chamber: if we are effective, we are a participatory which could stand in perpetuity, of having a fixed democracy as well. That principle would be somewhat number of MPs? The idea that we would do that is a undermined by an arbitrary mathematical solution to disgrace to the House and to the traditions of our how many Members there should be. democracy. Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): If the hon. This principle is important and the consequences are Gentleman is going to give us a long history lesson, will great, so let me illustrate them. I have none of the fears he at least assure us that he realises that Members of the that the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) House were elected using a transferable voting system discussed about the precise boundaries in my area. The until 1945 in some cases? boundaries were changed in the last election and my 1063 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1064 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [John Mann] with local government, however it is structured, the role of the MP and the credibility of Parliament are diminished. majority went up against all the predictions, so I have That is the weakness in arbitrary mathematical equations, no fears about any such change or about who will come and it is why we all know that the Boundary Commission in and who will go out. is in reality horrified by the notion that it would need to Of course, my constituents would strongly resist the use some kind of mathematical equation, because the notion that, having built a relationship with one Member criteria that it has used over the decades have been of Parliament, good or bad, they should not have the proven. They are transparent and challengeable in the opportunity to re-elect or dismiss that Member of courts if anyone wants to challenge them—people have Parliament. That principle is enshrined in our democracy, occasionally tried to do so. They are tested in the courts but it is endangered and partly thrown away by the and they are good and rational. Each party might arbitrary nature of setting a mathematical equation to occasionally object to the conclusions and MPs might determine the numbers. My constituency boundaries feel that we have been badly done by, given the nature of are a good example of how that would destroy the the change, but the process is democratic. That fundamental traditions of England and English democracy. principle is being changed. Ministers laugh at the fact that the county of Nottinghamshire, the seat of Bassetlaw and the electoral Gavin Barwell: The hon. Gentleman speaks with representation in Bassetlaw and Nottinghamshire have great passion, but I am not sure what his speech has to been set over the centuries, not in a few minutes or a few do with the amendment. He objects to the plus or minus hours’ debate, but by the very nature and history of this 5% rule, which could cause constituency boundaries to country.Do hon. Members know why the seat of Bassetlaw cross county boundaries, but there is nothing intrinsic was created? Because it was a road through the forest whatsoever in a reduction from 650 to 600, the subject and a route through the country. That is why Robin of the amendment, that would have the effect that he Hood was robbing in such places. The history and suggests. geography of this country, going back hundreds and thousands of years, have produced the shire counties. John Mann: The hon. Gentleman is under the Should my constituency’s boundaries be changed misapprehension that we have a statutory limit. At arbitrarily? My situation is not unique, but it emphasises the moment, we have a Boundary Commission, and the the nature of an arbitrary mathematical solution. My setting of an absolute figure will tie its hands, which is current boundaries and electorate are about the mean—it precisely why there could be arbitrary boundaries in a is not a small constituency—but a change to the south, constituency such as mine, crossing county boundaries which is precisely what has happened before, would be a and breaking up the integrity of the English counties. change within Nottinghamshire. One bit goes in; one That will do nothing for our democracy. bit goes out. That is how the Boundary Commission Some in this House feel that a smaller number of has done its work over the decades. That is reasonable. Members will be good for democracy, and I share some It makes its decisions. I disagreed with the last one, but of the concerns and think that we could go much that is democracy: an independent body, not politicians, further than down to just 600 Members, but the process heard representations and made its decisions on the should be done rationally and over a significant period. basis of trying to maximise equality between the seats In other words, there should be full consultation and in Nottinghamshire. That is why that change took place. thought, and the Boundary Commission should be Any change to the north would take us across a regional allowed to do its work in its normal way. Politicians, for boundary—Ministers will not be bothered about regions— whatever reason, should not attempt to fix the result. and a county boundary as well, into Yorkshire. I have By fixing the result, the sting in the tail not only for nothing against the people of Yorkshire. That is where I Liberal Members, but some Conservatives is the notion come from. I am sure that I would be as popular there that has been sold to some Back Benchers—that a as I am in Nottinghamshire, so that is not the fear. change will be bad for Labour. But any mathematician I deal with Nottinghamshire county council, can analyse the information and show that that may Nottinghamshire police and Bassetlaw council in well not happen in the boundary review. Given the Nottinghamshire. The fear of the elected Member is arbitrary nature of mathematics, the opposite may well that if we had to move over to an arbitrary base of occur. In fact, any change may well have a neutral effect different councils and authorities, however they are overall. formulated by whichever Government are in power, we Nevertheless, that is the principle, and that is why the would be looking in different directions at once and the Government are rushing the measure through. But, to role of MPs in advocating for and representing their sacrifice the English counties and the basis of our constituents would be significantly diminished. democracy simply for short-term expediency—in order It is not just the boundaries with Yorkshire that could to rush a Bill through and not allow the independent be changed; there could be a change to the east, in Boundary Commission to do its job in any way—is an which case we would go into Lincolnshire, perhaps into outrage to our democracy, and I suggest most humbly North Lincolnshire or West Lindsey council—again, that any decent democrat should withdraw those proposals entirely different local government, police and health immediately. set-ups. Of course, if the boundary was changed to the west, we would go into Derbyshire, yet another county Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): This is the first and yet another set of police and fire authorities. time that I have spoken to amendments in my name— All that illustrates the point that if we do not attempt, amendments 227 and 228 are the two to which I refer—and in any system, to try to maintain as much as we can the it is unfortunate that on this first occasion I should do integrity of the English counties and a direct relationship so against my Government, of whom I am an ardent 1065 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1066 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill supporter. I appreciate that this might not be a career- favour of a reduction in the number of Members of enhancing move, but I feel particularly strongly about Parliament. However, as we have clearly seen, if anyone the issue. could have come up with a way not to do it, it would be It is irrelevant whether the number of MPs is 600, 620 the Bill before us. or 585; it is foolish to put the Boundary Commission We have heard from the Deputy Leader of the House into a straitjacket and say, “There will be that number, that the intellectual rationale behind the move from with no variation.” Many Members from all parts of 650 to 600 was that it was an arbitrary number, but the House will have been involved in boundary reviews, seemed to have some magic. I am no scientific rationalist, whether at constituency or ward level, and they will but it seems to me that that might not be the most appreciate that the jigsaw never fits together. Equality is sophisticated way in which to develop public policy— desirable, but it should not be the sole criterion. particularly on something with such dramatic consequences. I agree with the comments that have been made about I suggest that if we are to move from 650 to 600, we community identity, but this is about more than just need a greater purpose than that. figures. The ancient county boundaries have been mentioned If we wanted to begin the process with some degree too, and they are particularly important, but my of intellectual consideration, we might begin to think constituency completely surrounds the constituency of about the role and function of Members of Parliament— Great Grimsby. The hon. Member for Great Grimsby what we want them to achieve, and their roles in the (Austin Mitchell) has left the Chamber, but it is always a community and in the House. We might think about pleasure to hear him speak, particularly as he is my demographic changes, the move from market towns to Member of Parliament. He made a reasonable argument, cities, migration or citizenship. We might think intelligently but it is completely out of touch with the people whom about the future, and what the role of the Member of he represents, because, in line with the manifesto on Parliament should be in it. As a result of such consideration, which I stood, I am actually in favour of reducing the the number of Members of Parliament might go up or size of the House. I see no objection to that whatever. down. Having worked out that fundamental principle, we might begin to think of a point to which we wanted 7.30 pm to head, over the course of Parliaments—but we might People from my part of the world went through the not have pulled all that together in a shoddily constituted experience of significant local government changes and Bill, rammed through this place with no pre-legislative boundary changes in the 1970s, when the arbitrary scrutiny, especially as it deals with what I would have county of Humberside was created. We in the local thought was a rather important matter of public policy community still live in the shadow of Humberside, for this House, and as we respect our democratic traditions, because it affects local politics. People hated the whole which are admired right around the world. concept, but regrettably it lives on—not only in the arbitrary region of Yorkshire and the Humber, but in Thomas Docherty: My hon. Friend’s knowledge is Humberside police and the Humberside fire and rescue second to none in this House. Can he tell me, as service. It contaminates political debate in the area, someone who is not as knowledgeable, whether he can because people are hostile to the whole concept. think of an example from the past when there has been The concept came about because of some grand a review of the number of constituencies that has been scheme that did not relate to the local identities that as rushed or ill-thought-out as the one that we now people feel. It is vital to retain those identities, and not face? just with counties. As I said, Cleethorpes surrounds the Tristram Hunt: My hon. Friend asks a very good constituency of Great Grimsby—and I know that I question. My lack of historical knowledge comes to the speak for my constituents when I say that they would be fore, because I can think of no other example. Perhaps extremely hostile to the idea of Great Grimsby being the Rump Parliament would come to mind, or some extended into Cleethorpes; they already feel dominated other innovations during the 1650s. I think that we are by Grimsby because we are in the same local authority seeing certain Cromwellian attributes appearing among area. The usual arguments, which we have all come those on the Government Benches. Like many others, I across, apply: more resources go into one part of the am new to this place, but I understand that we used to council area than the other, and so on. It is important to hear a great many lectures from Members who are now retain local identity. in government about the right to discuss public policy On other remarks that have been made, I should say at length and not to have it rammed through. that some coterminosity between constituencies and The Conservative manifesto, about which the hon. local government areas is desirable—not only because it Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) spoke so makes life easier for us Members in dealing with various eloquently—unlike some of his colleagues, he actually agencies, but because it helps to reflect the identities of still believes in what he stood for at the election—suggested the area. I hope that as this legislation goes through the reducing the number of Members of Parliament to House, the Government will consider allowing the 585, while the Liberal Democrat manifesto went for Boundary Commission some flexibility. 500 seats. On the principle of compromise and the Tristram Hunt: I do not wish to speak for too long, coalition agreement, one would have thought that they because we need to get on to the Government’s plans might bisect the two figures—that there might be a for the immolation of the Duchy of Cornwall. However, rationale for 542 or, if we are generous, 543, to allow the I do want to speak in favour of amendments 364 and Isle of Wight to remain whole. But no, they have gone 259. I want to focus on the rationale for the move from for the magical figure of 600, without any real rationale. 650 MPs to 600. Like many other Opposition Members, Some of the arguments this evening have been about I am in favour of broader equality between the electorates making politics cheaper. Without making a cheap joke, in our constituencies, and as a result, I am potentially in I think that the coalition has made politics cheaper. It 1067 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1068 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Tristram Hunt] It surprises me all the more that the move from 650 to 600 is being driven by the Conservative party, which I has cheapened public debate by reneging on pretty had always thought was interested in tradition, identity, much all its other manifesto commitments over the past locality and community rather than in utilitarian butchery few months. We are told that this is potentially going to of the historic constitution of this country. We have save £12 million—but we have not been given the costings been here before; one would have thought that the for the packing of the House of Lords, which is proceeding Conservative party might have learned the lessons of as we speak. We do not know the full costs of the Edward Heath, but it seems to be intent on repeating referendum. It is particularly apposite, on a day when them. The grotesque local authority rationalisations of we have heard about so many cuts in other parts of the the mid-1970s were done on exactly the same principle budget, that we are allocating money to that. of utilitarian Benthamite thinking, with no feel for locality or historic identity. People did not like them Mr MacNeil: Is there not a great danger, with the and rebelled against them. The Bill has blown apart the moves that are being made, that we will end up with a “big society”, because there is no sense of locality, democracy that has, as a percentage, fewer elected Members identity or tradition in it. Instead, it is rampant Cromwellian and more appointed legislators than we had before? statism. I believe that the reason for the arbitrary figure of Tristram Hunt: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that 600 is simply that it is a big round number, and the point. It is extraordinary to have begun this process Government thought it made sense. I suggest that this without thinking about the interrelationship between place deserves slightly more thought to be given to that this place and the other place. One does not have to be a matter. The arbitrary move to 600 was not in the Newtonian to think that for every force there is an equal manifesto of either of the governing parties, and it has and opposite counter-force. [Interruption.] I am hearing no popular mandate. As a result, I am more and more more and more sedentary comments from the Deputy convinced that the other place has no obligation to Leader of the House; I do not know if that is the usual adhere to the Salisbury convention and pass the Bill. form from him. There is no popular mandate for the change, so we might lose temporarily in this House, but I hope the One would have thought that all these things would other place will help us win the war—even as the be pulled together in an overarching Bill that had some Government, shamefully and against the constitutional degree of intellectual credibility in terms of the British principles of this country, continue to pack it. constitution and the role of this place and the other place. Instead, we have an arbitrary figure of 600, and meanwhile many more people are being placed in the Mrs Laing: It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. House of Lords. The international comparisons steadily Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt), fall away when we think about the federal structure of who is my colleague on the Political and Constitutional many other European nations, local rates of representation Reform Committee. I disagreed with almost everything in many other European nations, the interrelationship he said, but he almost had me persuaded when he between the two parts of bicameral Parliaments, both talked of Benthamites and Cromwellian statism. I am nationally and internationally, and the role of Members not a Benthamite, and I am not a statist, but—[HON. of Parliament today in terms of the volume of work MEMBERS: “Come over here!”] No, there is more coming. that they do. His argument was the most powerful and coherent that we have heard this evening. However, one point was The move from 650 to 600 will be an extraordinarily missing, which was the integrity that equalising seat speedy process. I have had the great pleasure of sitting sizes and constituencies will give this place. with some other Members present in the Chamber on Only two issues really matter in relation to this group the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, of amendments, although we have heard much special and we have heard time and again from independent pleading, not from the hon. Gentleman but from other witnesses, scholars and constitutionalists that the speed Members who are clearly concerned about their own of this process is unacceptable and will lead to mistakes. constituencies and positions and how their political Lewis Baston, from Democratic Audit, said to the future might develop if these changes are made to the Welsh Affairs Committee: constitution. That is not what we should be discussing. “I am concerned about the speed with which this is being We should be discussing principle, as the hon. Member brought through. It seems to be an absolute priority to get the for Stoke-on-Trent Central just did. new boundaries in place for 2015, rather than to get them right and to consider some of the principles involved. I would much rather we did this properly.” 7.45 pm Many Members share that view. There are only two principles here. First, somebody, Above all, the problem with the arbitrary collapse somewhere has to choose the correct number of Members from 650 seats to 600, as my hon. Friend the Member of this House. It was strange to hear the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) so eloquently and brilliantly for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) speak about the number 600 enunciated, is the total absence of sentiment or feel for as if it had—or lacked—some mystical force. the nature of either the United Kingdom or the British constitution. The UK is not something to be placed Austin Mitchell: How about 666? under a slide rule and arbitrarily cut up on the basis of a figure of 76,000. There are interrelationships of complex Mrs Laing: I cannot resist the hon. Gentleman’s formations between Wales, Scotland, England, the Isle sedentary comment. I believe that there is something of Wight, the Isles of Scilly and the historic Duchy of about 666, though I am not an adherent to that principle Scotland—[Interruption.] Or Cornwall, even. either—for me, it goes with Benthamism. I am therefore 1069 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1070 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill glad that we are not discussing 666, but why not 600? It constituents than any other Berkshire Member, so I is a reasonable, round number. We have to choose a cannot be accused of special pleading. However, if the number for Members of Parliament. [HON.MEMBERS: ambition is to get equal-sized constituencies—I share “No, we don’t.”] I am arguing that we have to choose a the hon. Lady’s belief in that principle—would not it number; that it is correct for Parliament to do so. We better to do it in a way that respects local communities, have talked much about The Great Reform Act of 1832, and to do it slowly, over time, thereby producing the but the subject of how many Members there should be number? I suppose the Conservative party would normally has not been properly discussed for a long time. describe that as “evolving.” Would not that be preferable to—to borrow a phrase from my hon. Friend the Member John Mann: Yes, it has. for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt)—the Cromwellian hatchet that cutting 50 seats constitutes? Mrs Laing: Not for a very long time, and the hon. Gentleman should not shout. Mrs Laing: I agree in principle with everything the The matter is being discussed properly now, and there hon. Lady says, but I would argue that three years is is nothing wrong with the figure of 600. It is a perfectly quite sufficient time for the Boundary Commission to reasonable, round number. undertake the task before it. The decision on the principle of the work going ahead can be taken in the Chamber Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): The hon. over these few weeks of discussions on the Bill, and Lady speaks about principles. Should it not be a principle three years is quite long enough for the commission to of the measure, since it proposes a change in our do its work. The hon. Lady agrees with me on the constitutional arrangements that is unprecedented in principle of equalisation. Once a principle is established, modern times, that at least some public consultation it ought to be put into practice as soon as possible. and cross-party discussions take place before anything Three years is plenty of time. comes before the House? Mark Durkan: The hon. Lady says that 600 is a Mrs Laing: This is a cross-party discussion. We are reasonable figure in the same way that the Independent all here in the Chamber having an open, cross-party Parliamentary Standards Authority asserts that the figures discussion. There has not been very much time to it comes up with are reasonable. The problem is the consider the Bill, but there have been several months. rigid application of that reasonable figure, which will The Select Committee on Political and Constitutional give rise to all sorts of problems and contradictions for Reform has examined it, and we have all received e-mails, which this House will be blamed. letters, papers and so on from people around the country who are concerned one way or the other. There has been Mrs Laing: I have been insulted many times in this consultation—that is why we are here. The debate that Chamber, but I have never, ever been compared with we are holding at this very moment is consultation. It is IPSA before. I entirely disagree with the hon. Gentleman. right that we have that discussion, and that the House There is proper consultation. Opposition Members speak makes a decision about numbers. as if the Boundary Commission is not involved in the I put it to the Committee simply that 600 is a perfectly process, but it is, and it has three years to do its job. It is reasonable number. It is hard to argue against it unless perfectly capable of doing that job. The resources are in one is doing special pleading on behalf of one’s constituency place and there is no problem. or county. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central spoke eloquently about our country’s development, Thomas Docherty: I am fascinated by the hon. Lady’s traditions and communities. Communities and traditions new-found passion for quangos, which is perhaps a develop once boundaries are drawn. My constituency good description of the Boundary Commission, because has a part in the north and a part in the south that have it is unelected. However, does she accept that crucially, little in common with one another, although they are the Government are removing the public inquiry and not far apart. However, they join together as a constituency the right of local people to give their input when the and a district. If another part comes in or goes out, that Boundary Commission has produced a report? That is becomes the community.Communities evolve, and nothing not liberal or democratic, and it is not in the finest in the Bill will destroy the traditional counties of England. traditions of the Conservative party.

Thomas Docherty: I thank the hon. Lady for being as Mrs Laing: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s argument, gracious as ever in taking interventions. Obviously, she but with respect, he is wrong. Very few local people and her new-found Liberal Democrat friends are passionate made representations to boundary commissions in the believers in localism. How does not holding public last review and the previous one; most representations inquiries and arbitrarily forming constituencies sit were made by political parties. comfortably with her idea of localism?

Mrs Laing: I did not say that I was particularly John Mann: Nonsense! concerned about localism. I am concerned about the equalisation of the size of constituencies. Perhaps some Mrs Laing: That is a fact. of my colleagues are concerned about localism, but I am far more concerned about democracy. Chris Bryant: In that case, will the hon. Lady explain why somebody might have said this at the Oxfordshire Fiona Mactaggart: I share the hon. Lady’s concern boundary inquiry in 2003: about democracy. I am the only Labour Member of “Somebody might take the view that…there are already too Parliament in Berkshire and I have substantially more many Members of Parliament at Westminster. They may take the 1071 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1072 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Chris Bryant] isles and Orkney and Shetland. Can my hon. Friend explain what it is that makes the latter two right and view, depending on what happens in the European constitution, mine wrong? that Westminster has less to do, with less MPs – I certainly hope that is not the case”? Mrs Laing: I am glad to say to my hon. Friend that it That was the right hon. Member for Witney (Mr Cameron). is not for me to answer that question, but I will give him my opinion, which counts as nothing more than that. Mrs Laing: I am sure that my right hon. Friend We should achieve real equality and I do not think that meant what he said. I do not disagree with him—what we should have exceptions for Orkney and Shetland he said is fine. The hon. Gentleman is forgetting that we and the western isles. If we are having a simple arithmetical are talking about an evolving political situation and an equality, we should stick to it. evolving world. As other hon. Members have said, the whole situation is evolving, which is why it is time for Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD): Will the House to look at itself, count its numbers and the hon. Lady give way? consider what is right. The hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) Mrs Laing: No, I have spoken for long enough. It is and I had an exchange yesterday on alphabetical preferences important to stick to equality. Once that principle is on ballot papers, which is relevant to the proposal for accepted, it should be adhered to. Of course, we need to 600 MPs. I am no longer concerned about alphabetical have a 5% tolerance for the sake of practicality and preferences. Since yesterday, when he said that he could because the Boundary Commission must be able to call himself A1 Austin and I could call myself apply the rules reasonably, but we should stick to equality. Mrs Aardvark, I am pleased to tell him that I have This House is about looking at the politics and the received, by e-mail, a proposal of marriage from a Mr principle, not about special pleading for particular Aaron Aardvark. I had to decline that kind proposal constituencies and particular Members and their because I could not possibly involve the poor gentleman convenience. I urge the Committee to accept that 600 is in the expense of marrying me in order to improve my a perfectly reasonable number and that equalisation—one electoral prospects. That would be gerrymandering and vote, one value—is the important democratic principle. manipulation of the system beyond the call of duty. However, it was a helpful discussion. Mr Syms: Listening to this debate, one would think that something major and radical was happening to our The real principle before us this evening is one vote, parliamentary system. In fact, what is being proposed is one value. That is what democracy is all about. Every an extremely modest change, which I welcome, because Member who is elected to this House should be elected more radical change would be unwelcome to most by an equal number of voters, at least potentially— Members of the House. We have heard a number of [Interruption.] Of course we have a tolerance level Members talk about boundary commissions and history, of 5%. but the Boundary Commission is only a post-war invention. It is something that our country can be proud of, Chris Bryant: And an equal turnout? because it tries to draw boundaries in a neutral way, while taking into account local interest. Mrs Laing: I should not respond to sedentary interventions, but we are not talking about turnout, as 8pm hon. Members know. We are rather more sophisticated than to go down to that level. Potentially, every Member The only changes in the Bill are, first, the proposal to should be elected by an equal number of voters. keep constituencies nearer to certain numbers, because there is currently a vast disparity in seats—and this after the first election on the new boundaries—which Phil Wilson: Nobody really disagrees with the point causes unfairness. Secondly, anyone who has been to a about equal-sized constituencies. What we are looking public inquiry held by the Boundary Commission will forward to hearing from the hon. Lady is an argument know that they tend to be attended by Labour, Liberal about why we need to reduce the number of seats from and Conservative agents and Members of Parliament, 650 to 600, other than that she likes the number 600. who all make representations. Sometimes local government That is the only reason that she has given us. I like the is involved, but inquiries of that sort are not something number 650, but I will make an argument for why it that members of the public are necessarily aware of or should stay at that. I need an argument from the hon. want to go to. Therefore, 12 weeks in which to write in Lady as to why it should be reduced to 600. to make representations, which is also provided for in the Bill, is not unreasonable, and I am sure that the Mrs Laing: Why should it be 650? Why should it not Boundary Commission, in its normal, impartial way, be 700 or 542? Pick a number out of the hat, or do the will take such representations into account. However, if lottery. Six hundred is a perfectly reasonable number Members are worried, they just have to ensure that lots and as good as any other number—[Interruption.] It is of people write in, and I am sure that when personal a workable number, and it is also reasonable to reduce interest comes into it, that will be the case. the size of the House in the interest of a more efficient The most radical part of the Bill is the reduction in democracy. the size of the House of Commons, but it is not very radical, because it essentially means that our electorates Mr Andrew Turner: We have to be within a 95% to will increase on average by 5,000 or 6,000, which is not 105% range, and that may be reasonable, but some very dramatic. In fact, for many Members, their electorates exceptions apply, including my constituency, the western will decrease by 5,000 or 6,000, because they are already 1073 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1074 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill larger than the size that has been chosen. There is a modest reduction in the House, which is not going to pinch point and a difficulty, which we may talk about make a major difference to most people in this House, later if we get there, to do with crossing county boundaries, except in Wales. which will cause the Government endless headaches. The problem with Wales is over-representation. There Nevertheless, what we have is, broadly, a modest change. have been changes in Northern Ireland, where the number I sat on the Opposition Benches for a number of of seats was increased because the constituencies were years and saw the previous Government introduce various very large, as well as in Scotland and England; Wales is constitutional changes. They included the change in the the one part of the Union that is out of line. I understand boundaries for the European Parliament, which was the pain and difficulty that the proposals will cause in done without consultation, without the Boundary Wales, because there will be quite a radical change Commission being involved and, I think, without even there, but throughout most of the UK, it will be a very a manifesto commitment, so we saw the previous modest change indeed. Government do all sorts of awful things. The reality is that we are making a modest change, in order to go for John Mann: The hon. Gentleman’s argument would some kind of equalisation, which is the basis of fairness. be more consistent if he were to tell us why he sees a problem arising if county boundaries in England are Phil Wilson: Can we not go for equalised numbers crossed. The moment those boundaries start to be without reducing the number of seats? I am sorry to crossed at random, we shall have an entirely different interrupt the hon. Gentleman’s love-in with the number solution in England. 600, but essentially we need to hear an argument. Nobody is disagreeing that we perhaps need more equalised Mr Syms: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. constituencies, but why reduce the number of seats, For historic reasons, it will depend on where any such especially when the average number of constituencies changes might be made. This is one of the arguments since the war has been about 649 or 650? It has stayed at that he will be able to put to the Boundary Commission that level for 60 or 70 years. Why radically reduce it when it brings forward its proposals—[Interruption.] now? Yes, he will; people will still have the capacity to make representations to the commission on the reports on the Mr Syms: Most Parliaments set their own size—that constituencies. is part of most constitutions—but two that do not are the UK Parliament and the Bundestag in Germany. The reason the Bundestag does not do so is that it has a list Chris Bryant: I am sorry, but the hon. Gentleman is system to compensate the first-past-the-post Members, wrong. People will be able to make representations only and when the German electoral commission looks at in writing, and they will not know what representations the arithmetic division of the proportional votes, to other people have made. They will not be able to inform ensure that they are proportionate, it can adjust the size their arguments through debate. Consequently, we shall of the Bundestag, sometimes by up to a dozen seats. not have the fullness of the public inquiry process that However, the history of this country is that, by and we have at the moment. With such radical changes large, we have allowed the Boundary Commission to go being proposed for the whole of the country, surely it out and draw up the boundaries, and then to come back would make sense to maintain public inquiries. with numbers. However, what happens is that there is creep. Every time we have a boundary commission, the Mr Syms: I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. numbers go up. [Interruption.] No, they do, with one The system that is being brought in will provide for a exception, which is when the numbers for Scotland are 12-week period in which people will be allowed to make reduced. On the whole, however, the numbers creep up. representations—[Interruption.] Twelve weeks is a long Therefore, with this Bill, we are being asked to give time. If there is real concern about crossing a county guidance to the Boundary Commission, so that it can boundary, I am sure that parish councils, local authorities, go away and then come back with a report. MPs and councillors will be able to make full representations in that time, and that the Boundary Commission will be Chris Bryant: How can the hon. Gentleman explain, able to hear them and come to a decision. then, the fact that there were 659 MPs in the previous Parliament, while there are 650 in this Parliament? Gavin Barwell: There has been hardly any discussion What he is saying is patently untrue. tonight about the existing rules. Will my hon. Friend put on record the fact that, under the rules under which Mr Syms: But that is principally because of the the Boundary Commission currently works, county changes in Scotland, which, incidentally— boundaries can be crossed?

Chris Bryant: No, it is not. Mr Syms: That is absolutely the case.

Mr Syms: It is; it happened because of the Scottish Stephen Gilbert: As I understand it, the next group of reduction. The reality is that we need to build a slight amendments deals with cases of boundaries impinging reduction into the system, otherwise we will have a on existing county boundaries. A number of Members constant creep-up of the numbers. Is it very much more are anxious to move on to that debate; it certainly difficult to represent 76,000 electors than it is to represent affects my constituents in Cornwall, but I can see others 69,000? I do not think that it is terribly difficult—we in the Chamber, including my hon. Friend the Member have the staff and the commitment to do it. All that we for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner), who will have an interest are talking about is drawing up fair boundaries, with a in the matter. Does my hon. Friend the Member for 1075 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1076 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Stephen Gilbert] anomaly that has to be corrected. That is why I believe it important to have frequent boundary reviews, not Poole (Mr Syms) agree that that group of amendments 10-yearly or with even longer intervals as we have will indeed deal with that matter? Perhaps we could experienced before. move on to it. Phil Wilson: The hon. Gentleman says it is all about Mr Syms: In the interests of coalition solidarity, I equalising constituencies, something people do not shall finish my speech. necessarily disagree with. Why, however, do we need to reduce the number of MPs to achieve that? We could Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): Given that there will simply divide the electorate by the number of MPs— be two Front-Bench speeches in addition to other people irrespective of whether there are 650 or 600 MPs. We speaking, and that two votes might be called on this could equalise the constituencies on that basis. issue, I fear that we might not reach the next group of amendments, although I know that people are anxious Stephen Williams: I was just coming on to the reduction to debate those issues. I shall therefore keep my remarks from 650 to 600, and I would like to offer some friendly brief. scepticism to my colleagues on the Government Front There are two amendments in my name that are Bench. The Deputy Leader of the House was candid intended to probe the numbers issue. One would replace enough to say that reducing the House of Commons by the figure of 600 with 500, and the purpose of that is to 50 Members was arbitrary, but I am even more concerned tease out the issue, although it has been reasonably well about this number being arrived at without full knowledge teased out already. We have debated the numbers and of the whole package of constitutional reforms that this why we need to arrive at one hard and fast figure, rather coalition Government are going to introduce. than setting a number as a target or guide for the I know that the Deputy Prime Minister has an ambitious Boundary Commission to pursue. programme of constitutional reform for the future, but Concern has understandably been expressed tonight we do not yet know the detail. We do not know the about the rigidity of the drafting of the proposals, in composition of what I hope will be a wholly elected that they offer no flexibility to take into account the second Chamber. We do not know what its powers will whole range of factors that have been properly and be or whether it will reflect the four member nations articulately expressed so far. That straitjacket will result and regions of the United Kingdom. That makes it in antiseptic constituencies whose boundaries are perpetually difficult to deal with the issue raised several times by the mobile between each election, and I do not think that hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant)—that of would be good for the House or for democracy. We giving more recognition within Parliament to Wales. I want the Boundary Commission to have sufficient discretion think that could be dealt with more properly in an to work towards a target while taking into account elected second Chamber than here. We still do not know reasonable geographical, cultural and electoral issues. whether more powers are to be given to English city We also want the Government to allow places collectively regions. Full devolution has been granted to Scotland, to make decisions for themselves, provided that they do Northern Ireland, Wales and to London, but English not ask for any special favours. In other words, when it local government certainly needs radical reform and comes to numbers, those in Cornwall are not asking for more powers. favourable treatment, but for distinctive treatment. Having We have heard about cost—I do not believe that it 600 Members might result in an MP representing Cornwall provides a good reason for reducing the size of the having to give up part of a seat in order to achieve House of Commons—and about international proper respect for the boundary between Cornwall and comparisons. France, for instance, has 577 seats and Isles of Scilly. I specified the 500 figure in a private Germany 622, but as we heard earlier, they have far Member’s Bill in October 2003—part of a long campaign greater devolved Administrations and Bristol’s twinned in which I have sought to demonstrate to the public that cities of Bordeaux and Hanover have enormous powers we can achieve efficiencies ourselves and save money. in comparison with those of my colleagues who run the The impact of devolution and the need to save money city of Bristol. and to make international comparisons are issues that have been articulated well so far. I hope, however, that Mark Tami: The hon. Gentleman is making a powerful we will have an opportunity to move on to the second argument. Could it be summed up in the phrase, “Putting string. the cart before the horse”?

Stephen Williams: I, too, will try to be brief, as I Stephen Williams: That is the hon. Gentleman’s phrase know some colleagues want to speak on the second and he has put it on the record. string. This clause has huge ramifications, some of The number of politicians to whom people in Bristol which I agree with—notably the equalisation of boundaries. can turn is very small. I live in the Cabot ward of the We have just had an enormous boundary change in city of Bristol—a ward I used to represent on Avon Bristol. I lost 30,000 electors whom I used to represent county council and Bristol city council. If any electors—any in 2005, but gained 30,000 electors from another part of of my neighbours in Kingsdown—want to complain the city at this election. The number of my electorate is about an issue affecting them, they can approach me, pretty much the same as it was five years ago. It is their Member of Parliament, or Alex Woodman or 82,728, with my neighbour the hon. Member for Bristol Mark Wright, their two city councillors. That is just East (Kerry McCarthy) representing 69,448 electors. three politicians: those are the only people to whom Within the same unitary authority, one MP has 13,280 more electors can turn if they have concerns about Bristol electors to represent than another. That is surely an matters, national matters or international matters. 1077 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1078 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill 8.15 pm A reduction to save costs does not seem justified to As the Deputy Leader of the House knows, I was me, and it is not yet justified in the context of a wider most disappointed not to be able to go to the Liberal package of constitutional reform both of this Parliament Democrat party conference in Liverpool this year. I was and of the way in which we govern our localities. I look on a cross-party visit to the United States with four to the Deputy Leader of the House for assurances that Labour Members of Parliament—one, the hon. Member we will be given a comprehensive package of political for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty), is reform to put this reduction into a proper context. with us this evening—and three Conservative Members. We spent time learning about the federal government of Mark Durkan: Like other Members, I am keen for us the United States, and in particular about the state of to reach the next set of amendments, so I shall make Michigan when we were in the state capital, Lansing. only a couple of points. The United States is to hold elections in the first week Arguments are being presented about whether there of November. I have a sample ballot paper—not an should be 650 Members of Parliament or 600. The original—from the East Lansing area of the state of problem that I have with all the figures—including the Michigan, which the electoral registration officer allowed 585 suggested by the hon. Member for Christchurch us to take away. Let me run through all the politicians (Mr Chope) and the 500 from the hon. Member for who are to be elected: the governor, the lieutenant-governor, St Ives (Andrew George)—is that they result in just one the secretary of state, the attorney-general, the US sum: one magic, supreme and absolute number. That congressman for the eighth district of Michigan, the means that when we take away the holy trinity of the state senator for the 23rd district, the state senator for three protected constituencies, the boundary commissions the 69th district, two members of the Michigan board must come up with figures that add up to 597. of state education, a regent of the University of That will have to be done in Parliament after Parliament, Michigan—of which there are two—a trustee of Michigan all the while taking account of changes in the numbers State university—of which there are two—the governor registering in different parts of the country, which will of Wayne State university—of which there are two— force boundary changes in every one of the four constituent boundary commissions. If there is a significant registration Stephen Gilbert rose— increase in part of England, Northern Ireland could lose a seat in the next Parliament. If there is a drop Stephen Williams: I have not finished yet, but I will somewhere else, however, we might gain a seat. In each give way. Parliament, therefore, we will be up a seat, perhaps, and then down a seat. In Northern Ireland, that will mean Stephen Gilbert: I thank my hon. Friend. This brings the boundary review will affect every single seat. me neatly to my intervention, which is made in the spirit That will be one of the consequences of moving to of coalition politics. Given that I intervened earlier on this absolute figure of 600 and 600 only with no elasticity. the hon. Member for Poole (Mr Syms), I now intervene To repeat a point I made earlier to the hon. Member for on my hon. Friend to remind him of the time. Epping Forest (Mrs Laing), I predict that we will end up questioning whether we decided on the change with too Stephen Williams: Then there is the state commissioner much urgency and as a result were left with a fixed, of the county of Ingham, and then there are all the arbitrary limit and the tyranny of arithmetic—the insistence judges to be elected: two judges for the Supreme Court, that one size has to fit all in spite of the reality and all one for the court of appeals, and the incumbent and other considerations. That will mean that we will end up non-incumbent circuit judges for the 30th district. There with an IPSA-type situation for boundaries. In Parliament are also a number of state propositions like the referendum after Parliament, MPs will regret that they are dogged that we are discussing. by all sorts of fairly arbitrary boundary changes that There will not be elections for all the officers and are driven purely by arithmetic and perhaps dictated by elected representatives on 4 November this year. There registration changes somewhere else. People in many will be no elections for Lansing or East Lansing local constituencies will wonder why they are constantly having councillors, for a directly elected mayor or a directly to go through such changes because of something that elected sheriff, or for the two United States Senators is happening somewhere else. who could represent the people from the state of Michigan; Should the Committee insist on going for diktats that and, of course, there will no election for the President will result in reviews having to be conducted every time or Vice-President, or for all the appointed politicians and arithmetic for establishing a quota for seats, would who help to run Michigan and the United States. there not be merit in amendment 228 tabled by the hon. It is clear that a person living in Michigan could Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers), which takes potentially turn to a huge number of politicians, both 600 as a target figure but allows a margin of accommodation elected and appointed, to resolve their problems. In my to the boundary commissions so that there can be as city of Bristol, however, there are only three to whom few as 588 seats and no more than 612? That margin of electors can turn. If we are honest with ourselves, consideration would at least allow the boundary instead of worrying about the cost of politics we should commissions to take account of the issues and pressures admit that we actually do politics rather cheaply in this facing them. Under clause 10, the number of seats country. Rather than electing school boards, as they do allocated to them will be fixed under the Sainte-Laguë in the United States, we have school governors—people formula. who give their time freely to serve their communities. Already the Government recognise that the absolute Rather than electing judges, we have either appointed figure of 600—and all the other aspects of the Bill—cannot judges or numerous magistrates who give their time be fully applied in respect of Northern Ireland, so they freely as well. have had to say that in Northern Ireland the seats can 1079 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1080 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Mark Durkan] rules, although I am not sure how many Members have read them. As I was saying to my hon. Friend the vary more widely than the 5% either side of the UK Member for Poole (Mr Syms), they allow the crossing quota. Therefore, we can come in at lower than 5% or of county boundaries. However, Members may not be over 5%, so our constituencies can be more disparate. aware that the Boundary Commission and the Committee That proves that the hon. Member for Epping Forest is on Standards in Public Life implored the previous wrong in saying that there are no adverse consequences Government to change those rules because they are and that the rigid application will not be a problem. The contradictory, confused and muddled. Therefore, some Bill admits that the rigid application is a problem, and it of the enthusiasm that we have heard for the current means that Northern Ireland will not be getting equal rules is misplaced, and it is not unreasonable for Parliament constituencies. We will have much more disparate to take a view on what the size of this House should be. constituencies as compared with other parts of the UK. I am not a lawyer, but I can say that the amendment More importantly, we will have much more disparate standing in the names of the right hon. Member for constituencies in the Northern Ireland Assembly, for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) and the hon. Member for Rhondda which there are six Members. Therefore, disparity of (Chris Bryant), among others, is defective. It seeks to representation and of mandate will arise in, of all amend the first paragraph of proposed new schedule 2 places, Northern Ireland and Northern Ireland only. to the Parliamentary Constituencies Act 1986 in a way That was not what was intended when this House, as that would wholly contradict proposed new paragraph 2(3) well as everybody else, supported the Good Friday of that schedule, which would define the United Kingdom agreement and its provisions. electoral quota in a completely different way. I therefore ask the Government to consider the very The third point to deal with is the assumption expressed sensible recommendation in amendment 228. Its sister by Labour Members that a reduction in the number of amendment 227 does not accommodate the situation in constituencies and, thus, larger constituency sizes will Northern Ireland, because it allows only a 2% margin lead to seats that less reflect community identity. That of discretion. It should allow for at least 2% or at shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how this least one seat. If that could be inserted in the Bill, it measure will work, because although that assumption would help. will be true in some cases, in others the measure will lead to constituencies that better reflect community Gavin Barwell: I want to start by agreeing with the boundaries. Under these proposals, instead of having hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt) three MPs covering my London borough of Croydon who, unfortunately, has left the Chamber. He made the we would have three and a half, so the new seats would point that there is an irony in the positions that the be likely less to reflect community identity in Croydon. different parties are taking. The Conservative party is However, the next-door London borough of Bromley making the progressive argument for greater electoral covers three and half constituencies and that would equality, while Labour is arguing the case for greater reduce to three, which would doubtless better reflect adherence to traditional community boundaries. One community identity. thinks back to 1982 when Michael Foot, then leader of the Labour party, and the Labour Chief Whip took the Thomas Docherty: I understand that the approach Boundary Commission to the courts because it had not will be to start at the south coast of England and work crossed community boundaries and had not, in Labour’s north, so there will be no understanding at all; even view at that time, achieved sufficient electoral equality. within London, that is how it will work. For the benefit of my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert), I shall make four short points about the arguments advanced in Gavin Barwell: The hon. Gentleman’s understanding favour of these amendments. is incorrect. I understand that this will be looked at on a regional basis; the work will be done in the nine regions We have been asked, first, why we should reduce the of England and then in the other nations of the United number of seats. I can speak only for myself and Kingdom. The work will not be done all across the describe why I shall be voting for such a reduction. I country—I think that that would be technically impossible was a candidate during the MPs’ expenses scandal and I to carry out. carried out a survey of every elector in my constituency. I put to them proposals from all three political parties about things that could be done to improve our political Several hon. Members rose— system and found that the second most popular was that the number of MPs should be reduced. [HON. Gavin Barwell: I shall make some progress, because I MEMBERS: “To what?”] At the time, I proposed a promised to be brief. 10% reduction; that was the figure in our manifesto and The fourth argument advanced is that MPs will not I would happily have supported it. be able to cope with the larger constituencies, and the Deputy Leader of the House has already rebutted that Susan Elan Jones rose— argument forcefully. Many Members in this House, including my two Croydon colleagues, already have Gavin Barwell: I shall make some progress. I recognise significantly larger constituencies than those envisaged that the coalition has proposed a slightly different figure, under this Bill and cope perfectly well with those but it still represents a reduction and I am happy to arrangements. However, I hope that my Front-Bench support it. team will given some attention to two points that have The second argument that has been advanced relates been made by Labour Members. The first relates to the to whether we should have a fixed number of seats. We size of the Executive relative to the size of this House, have heard a great deal of enthusiasm for the current and the Government definitely need to consider it. The 1081 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1082 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill second point is that it would be perverse to decrease the We also had discussion about what the Salisbury-Addison size of this House while increasing that of the other convention might mean. I have a quotation from the place. I hope that the Government will soon introduce former Lord High Chancellor—I do not whether it is a proposals to enact the coalition’s proposal for an elected ex cathedra statement, but it certainly approaches that— second Chamber. about how the House of Lords ought to apply its own judgment on the Salisbury-Addison convention in the John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) context of a coalition. This is what the right hon. (LD) rose— Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) had to say in 2006: “My own view is that if any coalition or arrangement as in Gavin Barwell: I shall give way once more and then I 1977 gains the support of the democratically elected House and is shall conclude. endorsed by a motion of confidence then the programme for which they gain that endorsement should be respected by” John Thurso: On the hon. Gentleman’s last point, I the House of Lords. That is an extremely helpful could not agree more about an elected upper House. He endorsement that may be noted. was also making a point about difficulty, but that does The other place was mentioned several times in the not come from the number of constituents. I would debate on these amendments. It was mentioned first by have no problem in taking on a further 30,000 constituents, the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster but I have a problem when I have to take them on (Mr Field) and then by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent 200 miles away. Central (Tristram Hunt), who is not in his place at the moment, who suggested that the Government were Gavin Barwell: The Bill contains criteria about the packing the House of Lords shamefully. For the record, maximum geographical size of constituencies. I observe, let us say that 56 peers have been created since the in passing, that one member of the Australian Parliament election, of whom 29 have been Labour peers created represents a constituency in western Australia that is on the proposition of the outgoing Prime Minister. If about the size of France, and I believe that the Australian we are packing the other place, we are doing so remarkably Government provide a light aircraft to enable that to be ineffectively by inserting Labour peers. done. The issue about the future of the House of Lords is In the interests of time, Mr Evans, I shall draw my an important one in the context of this Bill, as it is remarks to a close. I merely say that the arguments put within the whole constitutional settlement. We are forward by those on the Opposition Benches against the committed not only to an elected second Chamber but reduction in the size of this House do not hold water. to a smaller second Chamber. It is precisely that work My constituents want to see a reduction and I shall be that is now being taken on in earnest for the first time in happy to support the proposal to do so. 100 years. The previous Liberal Government said very clearly in the preamble to the Parliament Act 1911 that 8.30 pm they wished to see an elected House of Lords. That has Mr Heath: On the very last point that the hon. been taken on by the Deputy Prime Minister with the Member for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell) made, I all-party talks and we expect to introduce legislation think I recall that there is a Senator in the Italian Senate early next year to bring that into effect. who represents Australia, Asia and Africa. That is a Ian Lucas: If that is the case, why is the Deputy sizeable constituency and not one that I would suggest Leader of the House dealing with the House of Lords for this House. separately to the legislation on the House of Commons? This has been an interesting debate in many ways. First, I am glad that we have had the opportunity to Mr Heath: Because this is a Bill about the House of have the debate on the clause at all. Had the attempt by Commons. The House of Lords will be dealt with in the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) to vote different legislation, which the hon. Gentleman will see down the programme motion yesterday been successful, in due course. His right hon. Friend the Member for we would not have had a debate at all. I am also pleased Tooting (Sadiq Khan) is involved in the discussions. that we have had the extra hours this evening, because The hon. Gentleman will have to wait. One of the had the hon. Gentleman succeeded in voting the motion lessons that we should have learned by now is that if we down, we would not have had them. Unfortunately, he wait for every constitutional change to be made at once, then—again—filled the extra time with the 50 minutes nothing happens. That is what has prevailed for the last of his speech. 100 years. We are going to change that. I am also pleased because we have had a number of The arguments that I hear about the future of the what I would consider to be doctrinal statements made. House of Lords have been strangely echoed in the We had a doctrine laid out by the hon. Member for arguments I heard this evening about this place. An Rhondda for a new principle of consideration for argument that is regularly heard in the House of Lords constitutional Bills, in which we should allocate one day is that any system that managed to appoint a peer as on the Floor of the House for each clause of a constitutional fine as the person who is speaking must be an exceedingly Bill. I recall the Constitutional Reform and Governance good system that does not require further change. We Act 2010, in which I was involved, as were many other heard a bit of that this evening. We heard that any hon. Members who were in the House at the time. It system that elected the current Members of the House had 95 clauses and eight schedules and it had three days must be an exceedingly good system and does not need in Committee. That was what the Labour party did to be changed. Various hon. Members explained how when they were in Government and it ill behoves them the numbers that precisely apply to their constituency to suggest that the greatly longer time that we have are evidently the right numbers and should not be given this Bill is insufficient. changed. 1083 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1084 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill [Mr Heath] Again, I find it extraordinary that people whom I believed were reasonably intelligent and reasonably We have had the NIMPO—not in my period of numerate can imagine that reducing the size of the office—argument, with Members saying, “Of course, House from 650 to 600 means that the 50 smallest seats we all want to see the House brought to a smaller size, are the only ones that disappear—they just go puff and but not while I’m still here. Wait until I’ve retired and disappear into the ether—and that all the rest carry on then you can do it.” as they were. The suggestion is that the fact that most of We have also had the impossibility argument, with the smaller seats are Labour seats shows that this is a Members saying, “It is quite impossible to reduce the partisan move against the Labour party. I am sorry; I House from 650 to 600 Members because the electoral just do not accept that. I do not think that it is a logical quota that would be in place, with 76,000 electors, argument. would make it quite impossible for Members to do their Phil Wilson: In a debate last night, the hon. Member work”, completely ignoring the fact that one third of for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) proved to me that this is current Members have constituencies of 76,000, or within a partisan move, when she said that some hon. Members a margin of 5% of that. The hon. Member for Great oppose it because they are Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) said that it is impossible “trying to avoid being turkeys voting for Christmas.”—[Official because there would not be enough time to do all the Report, 19 October 2010; Vol. 516, c. 908.] jobs that a Member of Parliament has to do. I would be That is what the Conservative party is saying. more persuaded by that argument if I felt sure that every Member was a full-time Member of Parliament Mr Heath: I am addressing the arguments made in and did not find other employment—some excessively the Chamber tonight that suggested that the reduction so. Such Members have contributed to the debate. from 650 to 600 was an unimaginably ambitious target Apparently, the shift from a constituency of 60,000 to for the House and would result in the loss of Labour 76,000 would make the job impossible. seats and was therefore a partisan move, rather than We heard from the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John being what it is: a modest reduction in the size of the Mann) that the job is impossible to do if one represents House. We have discussed other sizes of the House. The a constituency that crosses a local authority boundary, Conservative and Liberal Democrat manifestos proposed but how many Members have constituencies that do a reduction in the size of the House of Commons. The that? Apparently, it would be impossible under the Conservative manifesto suggested the figure of 585, quota that we are suggesting. and the Liberal Democrats suggested 500, but on the basis of the single transferable vote. I have made it absolutely plain that this is a matter of Mr Love: The hon. Gentleman is criticising the arguments judgment. Six hundred is not a magical figure. I have that have been used by the Opposition, so may I address never pretended that it is. It is an arbitrary figure, but it the arguments that the coalition Government have used? is one that results in an electoral quota of about 76,000, I have read the Political and Constitutional Reform which is an entirely possible figure, as we have demonstrated, Committee’s report on the Bill. Having considered every on the basis of the 2009 electoral register. argument that had been made, the Committee, which has an in-built coalition majority, concluded: Susan Elan Jones: rose— “There may be a case for reducing the number of Members of Hon. Members: Give way. the House to 600, but the Government has not made it.” Can the hon. Gentleman make such a case tonight? Mr Heath: The hon. Lady will have to be a little bit patient and not just stand there, but ask and then wait until I give way. Mr Heath: The hon. Gentleman will have to wait The country would like to see a reduction in the until I get to that point in my remarks, because I have a number of Members of Parliament in this House. We few other comments to make on what others have said have tried to strike a balance between what is achievable in the debate. and sensible in terms of the operation of Members of We have heard not only that it would be impossible Parliament and what is desirable in finally turning the for Members to accommodate extraordinary constituencies corner in terms of the ever-increasing size of the of 76,000, despite the fact that so many of us do it, but membership of the Chamber. that it would be impossible for electors in such constituencies Susan Elan Jones: I am grateful to the Minister for to know who their MP was. We have heard that it would finally giving way.He mentioned that the Liberal Democrats be impossible to have a career structure because anyone and the Conservative party proposed in their manifestos who had experience outside the House could not be at the last election reductions in the number of seats. elected if we had constituencies of 76,000. What an Various Conservative candidates in north Wales said, extraordinary proposition that is. having cited Guy Fawkes among others, that people The final proposition was that this is all a partisan would probably think that the Guy Fawkes option was move—[HON.MEMBERS: “It is!”] The Opposition say a good one, but we were then talking about a reduction that it is a partisan move to reduce the number of of 10% of seats in Wales. When they were questioned, Labour MPs but we have also heard from the same side they said, “Yes, of course, it will be 10% of Welsh seats, in the same argument that it will not reduce the number because the new Conservative Government will be very of Labour MPs. So, we are gerrymanderers, but we are rational in doing this.” How does the Minister justify totally incompetent gerrymanderers because we are reducing talking about a reduction of, I think, 7.7% across the our own seats and improving the position for the whole United Kingdom but a reduction of 25% in one Opposition. of the component nations? 1085 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1086 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Mr Heath: I justify that very easily by the fact that Mr Heath: It is difficult to maintain a process based Welsh constituencies are much smaller than constituencies on the equalisation of seats, and then to sustain the case in the rest of the country, and the Bill will equalise that an island, which I accept has very particular representation, as I thought we had established. As I characteristics of its own and is very large, but which, keep on reminding the House, the existing position is unlike Orkney and Shetland and Na h-Eileanan an Iar, that the hon. Member for Rhondda—I choose his is within near reach of mainland Britain, should be constituency only because he happens to be sitting on treated as an exception. However, the hon. Gentleman the Opposition Front Bench—has 51,000 electors, my will continue to make that case, and I understand constituency has 82,000 electors and there is a difference exactly why he wishes to do so. I know that he speaks of almost 30,000 between the two. That cannot be for many of his constituents, although not all, and I am justified. sure that he accepts that some of his constituents feel very strongly that the Isle of Wight has natural economic Mr Mark Field: I very much agree with everything links with areas of mainland Hampshire, and that a that the Minister says about the equalisation of parliamentary linkage could be of benefit. But of course, constituencies. Can he therefore justify why any exceptions he represents 100,000 electors, and does so very well— are being made? Chris Bryant: The House? 8.45 pm Mr Heath: I am addressing the Chair, and the Chair Mr Heath: Yes, I can. I can justify why the islands of is seated at the Table, not on the Opposition Benches. northern Scotland are in a rather different position from the Cities of London and Westminster. I can As I say, the hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Mr explain why constituencies where, as the hon. Member Turner) needs to continue to press his case. We shall for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) says of his, the listen to the arguments that he makes, but we shall also distance from one end to the other is greater than the try to maintain the principle of a common— whole of Wales might be justifiably treated as an exception. I do not find that a difficult case to make. Chris Bryant: Can’t hear you.

Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD) rose— The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. If hon. Members can be quieter, the Mr Heath: Now I see that my hon. Friend is going to entire Committee will be able to hear what Mr Heath is tell me about his constituency, which I accept is also a saying, so please calm down. We have only another very difficult case. 11 minutes left, as hon. Members know, before we need to move on. Mr Reid: The Deputy Leader of the House has supported the Government line that a constituency with 22,000 electors and three islands is treated as an Mr Heath: May I deal with the issues raised by the exception. Argyll and Bute has 13 islands and a public hon. Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers)? He has ferry service, and covers a land area of about 5,000 square a great deal of expertise on this issue, and I am grateful kilometres, with an electorate of 67,000. If the benchmark to him for contributing to the debate. He proposed is three islands and 22,000 electors, why is there not an giving the Boundary Commissions flexibility to vary exception for other constituencies with islands—13 islands? the number of seats assigned to each of the four nations by a small amount. The flexibility proposed in his Mr Heath: I understand my hon. Friend’s point, amendment 228—a margin of 2% on either side of the because his constituency is indeed a very difficult case, proportionate entitlement—would not work for Wales and the argument that he will make to the Boundary or Northern Ireland, as was recognised by the hon. Commission in order to maintain as much as possible Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan). It would not allow of his current constituency boundary will be a very the commissions there to increase or reduce those nations’ strong one. I am sure that he will make that argument, allocations, as 2% of their national entitlement would but we have not moved on to the group of amendments not equal one whole seat. in which we can discuss that issue, and I have to keep in However, there are more fundamental objections to order. the amendment. It would enable the Boundary May I return to the basic principle? I am amazed, Commissions for England and for Scotland to increase because there is an element of the Bourbons about or decrease the total number of MPs in the House and some Members: they remember nothing of what has the proportion of MPs who represent their part of the happened over the past year or so. Do they not realise UK. Parliament should lay down clear rules for determining that the public are desperate for us to reduce the costs of the number of constituencies, and they should be allocated this place? Do they not understand that there is no to the four parts of the UK in proportion to their public clamour for more Members, which would be the electorate. We are seeking equality between the nations effect of the amendment in the next group in the name as well as within them. of the hon. Member for Rhondda? The public do not Finally, I want to deal with the amendments tabled— want more Members, they want fewer, and I believe that although not spoken to, obviously, because of his our proposal in this part of the Bill is entirely appropriate. absence—by the Chair of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee. They would require the Boundary Mr Andrew Turner: I do not understand why it is Commissions to decide between themselves the size of necessary for the Minister, who wants to reduce the the House at each review, until the figure of 600 was number of Members, to create more for my seat. reached in 19 years’ time. 1087 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1088 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Mark Durkan: The Deputy Leader of the House told the Deputy Leader of the House. This constitutional us that the figure of 600 was arbitrary. He has still not flexibility is something that has been of great benefit to explained why an arbitrary figure has to be fixed in us. I feel that my hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes statute in perpetuity. If this is about creating equality got it right in saying that it is useful for there to be some between the component parts of the UK, why does the degree to which one can go outside the boundaries, Bill say that constituencies in Northern Ireland can without being too prescriptive. vary more widely, both among themselves and in On the subject of today’s speeches, what a fantastic comparison with constituencies elsewhere, than those history lesson we had from the hon. Member for Stoke- anywhere else? That does not achieve what he says the on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt). To think that this Bill is supposed to achieve. was supposedly the least discussed reform of Parliament since the Rump Parliament, when Cromwell decided to Mr Heath: We will have to differ on that specific send in the troops—the only man to send troops into point. I believe that what is proposed provides for a the predecessor building to this House to enforce debate high level of equalisation across the whole United Kingdom. and Divisions. Some of us may think that the Whips are It is based on what is equitable for our constituents. tough, aggressive and forceful, but even in my experience I return to the point about an incremental reduction, they have not used force, or pikes, to make sure that I go which was raised by one other hon. Member. I should in the right direction. Oliver Cromwell did indeed do like to make it clear that the issue was considered in the that; he prevented people from voting in that forceful Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, and way. The shadow Minister returned us to these matters the secretary of the Boundary Commission for England again and again, and spoke for at least 50 glorious reported that there would be no particular advantage to minutes—minutes that felt to me like days, but days of making the change incrementally. The commission also such pleasure, joy and rejoicing in spirit that I hope we said that it had both the resources to carry out the will have another 50 minutes from him in due course, or review and sufficient time, before the deadline for submitting on another occasion, or perhaps tomorrow, if we should reports on 1 October 2013, to draw up constituencies be so lucky. for a House of 600 at the review. The suggestion that Let us return to the specifics of numbers. Should it be that is impossible to achieve in the time scale that we 650, or perhaps 649? Should it be 648 or 647? propose is not substantiated. The Government’s proposals strike the right balance. Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): Higher! They will end once and for all the fluctuation in the size of the House and the upward pressure on the number of Jacob Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend would like to have MPs under the current legislation, and propose a modest more—perhaps it is a “points mean prizes” occasion. reduction in overall numbers, which will cut the cost of However, I think that 600 is not too bad a number. One politics, but do so in a way that will not result in hon. Lady suggested 666—the number of the beast. It is constituencies that represent a departure from the type worth being careful about the number 666, because if that we see in this Parliament. I hope that right hon. we read our Bible carefully there is always a footnote and hon. Members will feel able to withdraw their saying that other ancient authorities refer to 616. I am amendments and support the Government’s position. glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes set his limit at 612, clearly aware of the dangers of going Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): as high as 616 and thereby finding that we inadvertently Mr Evans, thank you so much for calling me. It has had in this House the number of seats that was the been enlightening, educational and a real honour to number of the beast. We know what that would mean: it listen to this debate since we last divided the House would be deeply terrifying—almost as terrifying as the some hours ago. I have listened to some fine speeches. threat of proportional representation. The hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) put his We had great discussions about the great and noble case with such pith and moment that I was almost historical counties, and the wickedness of Humberside persuaded to vote against my own side. The spectre that and suchlike. I would like to add that Avon was even arose before us was one so terrifying and so fearful that worse than Humberside. Avon was an abomination—a we quaked in our Tory boots; it was the spectre of foul creature disgusting in all respects, destroyed, I am clause 9 leading us to proportional representation. The glad to say, by the noble father of my hon. Friend the fear that came upon me was that as a result of setting a Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer). In the numerical number so precise and clear that it could not be questioned aspect, it is important to look at the hon. Member for even by the great and good of the Boundary Commission, Somerton and Frome in representing so many Somersetshire we could face proportional representation. And I saw constituents. It seems important that the people of other right hon. and hon. Members struck with fear at Somerset should have as much representation as the the thought, and I saw them feeling that they would people of Rhondda—indeed, I think rather more, because move towards supporting greater flexibility. we are from Somerset and they are from Wales. A few My hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Martin extra seats should be especially included, to give Somerset Vickers) offered us an amendment that would meet the representation that that wonderful county needs. almost every objective of Her Majesty’s Government I will say just one final thing about seats, because but would still have flexibility—that great aspect of the time is getting on. In the Parliament of, I believe, British constitution, which has served us well since 1392—let me just check that in my notes—no, the Alfred the Great, who was a Somerset man. I debate Parliament of 1362, one Member, a Mr John Wonard, with my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and represented two seats in Devonshire and two in Cornwall. Frome (Mr Heath) whether Alfred is more my constituent It seems to me that the flexibility that the history of our or his; I think, in fairness, that he would belong more to nation allows ensures that the number will always come 1089 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1090 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill out right in the end. A right and suitable number we Jones, Susan Elan Riordan, Mrs Linda shall have, a fine and good number, a lucky number, Jowell, rh Tessa Robertson, John perhaps a number that the— Joyce, Eric Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Keeley, Barbara Rotheram, Steve 9pm Keen, Alan Roy, Lindsay Kendall, Liz Ruane, Chris Debate interrupted (Programme Orders, 12 and Khan, rh Sadiq Ruddock, rh Joan 19 October). Lavery, Ian Sarwar, Anas The Chair put forthwith the Question already proposed Lazarowicz, Mark Seabeck, Alison from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83D), That the Leslie, Chris Shannon, Jim amendment be made. Lloyd, Tony Sharma, Mr Virendra Love, Mr Andrew Sheridan, Jim The Committee divided: Ayes 212, Noes 325. Lucas, Caroline Shuker, Gavin Division No. 91] [9 pm Lucas, Ian Simpson, David MacNeil, Mr Angus Skinner, Mr Dennis Brendan Slaughter, Mr Andy AYES Mactaggart, Fiona Smith, Angela Abbott, Ms Diane Doran, Mr Frank Mahmood, Shabana Smith, Nick Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Dowd, Jim Mann, John Smith, Owen Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Doyle, Gemma Marsden, Mr Gordon Soulsby, Sir Peter Alexander, Heidi Dromey, Jack McCabe, Steve Spellar, rh Mr John Ali, Rushanara Dugher, Michael McCarthy, Kerry Stringer, Graham Anderson, Mr David Eagle, Maria McClymont, Gregg Stuart, Ms Gisela Austin, Ian Efford, Clive McCrea, Dr William Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Bailey, Mr Adrian Elliott, Julie McDonnell, John Tami, Mark Bain, Mr William Ellman, Mrs Louise McFadden, rh Mr Pat Thomas, Mr Gareth Balls, rh Ed Engel, Natascha McGovern, Jim Thornberry, Emily Banks, Gordon Esterson, Bill McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Timms, rh Stephen Beckett, rh Margaret Evans, Chris McKechin, Ann Turner, Karl Begg, Miss Anne Field, rh Mr Frank McKinnell, Catherine Twigg, Derek Benn, rh Hilary Field, Mr Mark Meacher, rh Mr Michael Twigg, Stephen Benton, Mr Joe Flello, Robert Meale, Mr Alan Umunna, Mr Chuka Betts, Mr Clive Flint, rh Caroline Mearns, Ian Vaz, Valerie Blackman-Woods, Flynn, Paul Michael, rh Alun Walley, Joan Roberta Fovargue, Yvonne Miller, Andrew Watson, Mr Tom Blears, rh Hazel Francis, Dr Hywel Mitchell, Austin Watts, Mr Dave Blenkinsop, Tom Gapes, Mike Moon, Mrs Madeleine Weir, Mr Mike Bone, Mr Peter Gardiner, Barry Morden, Jessica Whitehead, Dr Alan Brennan, Kevin Gilmore, Sheila Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Wicks, rh Malcolm Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Glass, Pat Morris, Grahame M. Williams, Hywel Brown, Mr Russell Glindon, Mrs Mary (Easington) Williamson, Chris Bryant, Chris Goggins, rh Paul Mudie, Mr George Wilson, Phil Buck, Ms Karen Goodman, Helen Munn, Meg Wilson, Sammy Byrne, rh Mr Liam Greatrex, Tom Murray, Ian Winnick, Mr David Cairns, David Green, Kate Nandy, Lisa Winterton, rh Ms Campbell, Mr Alan Greenwood, Lilian Nash, Pamela Rosie Campbell, Mr Ronnie Griffith, Nia Onwurah, Chi Wood, Mike Chapman, Mrs Jenny Gwynne, Andrew Osborne, Sandra Woodcock, John Clark, Katy Hain, rh Mr Peter Owen, Albert Woolas, Mr Phil Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hamilton, Mr David Pearce, Teresa Wright, David Coaker, Vernon Hamilton, Mr Fabian Perkins, Toby Wright, Mr Iain Cooper, Rosie Hanson, rh Mr David Phillipson, Bridget Cooper, rh Yvette Harman, rh Ms Harriet Reed, Mr Jamie Tellers for the Ayes: Corbyn, Jeremy Havard, Mr Dai Reeves, Rachel Lyn Brown and Crausby, Mr David Healey, rh John Reynolds, Jonathan Stephen Pound Creagh, Mary Heyes, David Creasy, Stella Hillier, Meg NOES Cryer, John Hilling, Julie Cunningham, Alex Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Adams, Nigel Bebb, Guto Cunningham, Mr Jim Hoey, Kate Afriyie, Adam Beith, rh Sir Alan Cunningham, Tony Hollobone, Mr Philip Aldous, Peter Bellingham, Mr Henry Curran, Margaret Hopkins, Kelvin Andrew, Stuart Beresford, Sir Paul Dakin, Nic Hosie, Stewart Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Berry, Jake Danczuk, Simon Howarth, rh Mr George Bacon, Mr Richard Bingham, Andrew David, Mr Wayne Hunt, Tristram Bagshawe, Ms Louise Binley, Mr Brian Davidson, Mr Ian Irranca-Davies, Huw Baker, Norman Birtwistle, Gordon Davies, Geraint Jamieson, Cathy Baker, Steve Blackman, Bob De Piero, Gloria Johnson, Diana Baldry, Tony Blackwood, Nicola Denham, rh Mr John R. Baldwin, Harriett Blunt, Mr Crispin Dobbin, Jim Jones, Graham Barclay, Stephen Boles, Nick Docherty, Thomas Jones, Helen Barker, Gregory Bottomley, Peter Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Jones, Mr Kevan Barwell, Gavin Bradley, Karen 1091 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1092 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Brady, Mr Graham George, Andrew Leigh, Mr Edward Redwood, rh Mr John Brake, Tom Gibb, Mr Nick Leslie, Charlotte Rees-Mogg, Jacob Bray, Angie Gilbert, Stephen Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Reevell, Simon Brazier, Mr Julian Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lewis, Brandon Reid, Mr Alan Bridgen, Andrew Glen, John Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Brine, Mr Steve Goldsmith, Zac Lloyd, Stephen Robathan, Mr Andrew Brokenshire, James Goodwill, Mr Robert Long, Naomi Robertson, Hugh Brooke, Annette Gove, rh Michael Lopresti, Jack Robertson, Mr Laurence Browne, Mr Jeremy Graham, Richard Lord, Jonathan Rogerson, Dan Bruce, Fiona Gray, Mr James Loughton, Tim Rosindell, Andrew Bruce, rh Malcolm Grayling, rh Chris Luff, Peter Rudd, Amber Buckland, Mr Robert Green, Damian Lumley, Karen Ruffley, Mr David Burley, Mr Aidan Greening, Justine Macleod, Mary Russell, Bob Burns, Conor Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Main, Mrs Anne Rutley, David Burns, Mr Simon Griffiths, Andrew Maude, rh Mr Francis Sanders, Mr Adrian Burrowes, Mr David Gummer, Ben May, rh Mrs Theresa Sandys, Laura Burstow, Paul Gyimah, Mr Sam Maynard, Paul Scott, Mr Lee Burt, Alistair Halfon, Robert McCartney, Jason Selous, Andrew Byles, Dan Hames, Duncan McCartney, Karl Shapps, rh Grant Cairns, Alun Hammond, rh Mr Philip McIntosh, Miss Anne Sharma, Alok Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hancock, Mr Mike McLoughlin, rh Mr Shelbrooke, Alec Carmichael, Mr Alistair Hands, Greg Patrick Simmonds, Mark Carmichael, Neil Harper, Mr Mark McPartland, Stephen Simpson, Mr Keith Carswell, Mr Douglas Harrington, Richard McVey, Esther Skidmore, Chris Cash, Mr William Harris, Rebecca Menzies, Mark Smith, Miss Chloe Chishti, Rehman Hart, Simon Mercer, Patrick Smith, Henry Clappison, Mr James Haselhurst, rh Sir Metcalfe, Stephen Smith, Julian Clark, rh Greg Alan Miller, Maria Smith, Sir Robert Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hayes, Mr John Mills, Nigel Soames, Nicholas Coffey, Dr Thérèse Heald, Mr Oliver Milton, Anne Soubry, Anna Collins, Damian Heath, Mr David Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Spencer, Mr Mark Colvile, Oliver Hemming, John Moore, rh Michael Stanley, rh Sir John Cox, Mr Geoffrey Henderson, Gordon Mordaunt, Penny Stephenson, Andrew Crabb, Stephen Hendry, Charles Morgan, Nicky Stevenson, John Crockart, Mike Herbert, rh Nick Morris, Anne Marie Stewart, Bob Crouch, Tracey Hinds, Damian Morris, David Stewart, Iain Davey, Mr Edward Hoban, Mr Mark Morris, James Stewart, Rory Davies, David T. C. Hollingbery, George Mosley, Stephen Streeter, Mr Gary (Monmouth) Holloway, Mr Adam Mowat, David Stride, Mel Davies, Glyn Hopkins, Kris Mundell, rh David Stunell, Andrew Davis, rh Mr David Horwood, Martin Munt, Tessa Sturdy, Julian de Bois, Nick Howarth, Mr Gerald Murray, Sheryll Swales, Ian Dinenage, Caroline Howell, John Murrison, Dr Andrew Swayne, Mr Desmond Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hughes, Simon Neill, Robert Swinson, Jo Dorries, Nadine Huhne, rh Chris Newmark, Mr Brooks Swire, Mr Hugo Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Newton, Sarah Syms, Mr Robert Drax, Richard Huppert, Dr Julian Nokes, Caroline Teather, Sarah Duddridge, James Hurd, Mr Nick Norman, Jesse Thurso, John Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jackson, Mr Stewart Nuttall, Mr David Timpson, Mr Edward Dunne, Mr Philip Javid, Sajid O’Brien, Mr Stephen Tomlinson, Justin Durkan, Mark Jenkin, Mr Bernard Offord, Mr Matthew Tredinnick, David Ellis, Michael Johnson, Gareth Ollerenshaw, Eric Ellison, Jane Johnson, Joseph Opperman, Guy Truss, Elizabeth Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Andrew Ottaway, Richard Turner, Mr Andrew Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Mr David Paice, Mr James Tyrie, Mr Andrew Eustice, George Jones, Mr Marcus Parish, Neil Uppal, Paul Evans, Graham Kawczynski, Daniel Patel, Priti Vaizey, Mr Edward Evans, Jonathan Kelly, Chris Pawsey, Mark Vara, Mr Shailesh Evennett, Mr David Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Penning, Mike Vickers, Martin Fabricant, Michael Kirby, Simon Penrose, John Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Fallon, Michael Knight, rh Mr Greg Percy, Andrew Walker, Mr Charles Farron, Tim Kwarteng, Kwasi Perry, Claire Walker, Mr Robin Featherstone, Lynne Laing, Mrs Eleanor Phillips, Stephen Wallace, Mr Ben Foster, Mr Don Lamb, Norman Pickles, rh Mr Eric Walter, Mr Robert Fox,rhDrLiam Lancaster, Mark Pincher, Christopher Ward, Mr David Francois, rh Mr Mark Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Poulter, Dr Daniel Watkinson, Angela Freeman, George Latham, Pauline Prisk, Mr Mark Weatherley, Mike Fullbrook, Lorraine Leadsom, Andrea Pritchard, Mark Webb, Steve Fuller, Richard Lee, Jessica Pugh, Dr John Wharton, James Garnier, Mr Edward Lee, Dr Phillip Raab, Mr Dominic Wheeler, Heather Garnier, Mark Leech, Mr John Randall, rh Mr John White, Chris Gauke, Mr David Lefroy, Jeremy Reckless, Mark Whittaker, Craig 1093 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1094 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Whittingdale, Mr Wilson, Mr Rob Evans, Graham Kawczynski, Daniel John Wright, Simon Evans, Jonathan Kelly, Chris Wiggin, Bill Yeo, Mr Tim Evennett, Mr David Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Willetts, rh Mr David Young, rh Sir George Fabricant, Michael Kirby, Simon Williams, Mr Mark Zahawi, Nadhim Fallon, Michael Knight, rh Mr Greg Williams, Roger Farron, Tim Kwarteng, Kwasi Williams, Stephen Tellers for the Noes: Featherstone, Lynne Laing, Mrs Eleanor Williamson, Gavin Mark Hunter and Foster, Mr Don Lamb, Norman Willott, Jenny Jeremy Wright Fox,rhDrLiam Lancaster, Mark Francois, rh Mr Mark Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Question accordingly negatived. Freeman, George Latham, Pauline Fullbrook, Lorraine Leadsom, Andrea The Chair then put forthwith the Questions necessary Fuller, Richard Lee, Jessica for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that Garnier, Mr Edward Lee, Dr Phillip time (Standing Order No. 83D). Garnier, Mark Leech, Mr John Amendment made: 327, in clause 9, page 10, leave out Gauke, Mr David Lefroy, Jeremy lines 8 and 9 and insert— Gibb, Mr Nick Leigh, Mr Edward Gilbert, Stephen Leslie, Charlotte (a) in England, the boundaries of— Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Letwin, rh Mr Oliver (i) each county for which there is a county council, Glen, John Lewis, Brandon (ii) each district that is not in such a county, and Goldsmith, Zac Liddell-Grainger, Mr (iii) each London borough,’.—(Mr Heath.) Goodwill, Mr Robert Ian Question put, That the clause, as amended, stand part Gove, rh Michael Lilley, rh Mr Peter of the Bill. Graham, Richard Lloyd, Stephen Gray, Mr James Lopresti, Jack The Committee divided: Ayes 322, Noes 167. Grayling, rh Chris Lord, Jonathan Division No. 92] [9.15 pm Green, Damian Loughton, Tim Greening, Justine Luff, Peter AYES Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Lumley, Karen Griffiths, Andrew Macleod, Mary Adams, Nigel Burns, Conor Gummer, Ben Main, Mrs Anne Afriyie, Adam Burns, Mr Simon Gyimah, Mr Sam Maude, rh Mr Francis Aldous, Peter Burrowes, Mr David Halfon, Robert May, rh Mrs Theresa Andrew, Stuart Burstow, Paul Hames, Duncan Maynard, Paul Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Burt, Alistair Hammond, rh Mr Philip McCartney, Jason Bacon, Mr Richard Byles, Dan Hancock, Mr Mike McCartney, Karl Bagshawe, Ms Louise Cairns, Alun Hands, Greg McIntosh, Miss Anne Baker, Norman Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Harper, Mr Mark McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Baker, Steve Carmichael, Mr Alistair Harrington, Richard McPartland, Stephen Baldry, Tony Carmichael, Neil Harris, Rebecca McVey, Esther Baldwin, Harriett Carswell, Mr Douglas Hart, Simon Menzies, Mark Barclay, Stephen Cash, Mr William Haselhurst, rh Sir Mercer, Patrick Barker, Gregory Chishti, Rehman Alan Metcalfe, Stephen Barwell, Gavin Clappison, Mr James Hayes, Mr John Miller, Maria Bebb, Guto Clark, rh Greg Heald, Mr Oliver Mills, Nigel Beith, rh Sir Alan Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Heath, Mr David Milton, Anne Bellingham, Mr Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hemming, John Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Henry Collins, Damian Henderson, Gordon Moore, rh Michael Beresford, Sir Paul Colvile, Oliver Hendry, Charles Mordaunt, Penny Berry, Jake Cox, Mr Geoffrey Herbert, rh Nick Morgan, Nicky Bingham, Andrew Crabb, Stephen Hinds, Damian Morris, Anne Marie Binley, Mr Brian Crockart, Mike Hoban, Mr Mark Morris, David Birtwistle, Gordon Crouch, Tracey Hollingbery, George Morris, James Blackman, Bob Davey, Mr Edward Holloway, Mr Adam Mosley, Stephen Blackwood, Nicola Davies, David T. C. Hopkins, Kris Mowat, David Blunt, Mr Crispin (Monmouth) Horwood, Martin Mundell, rh David Boles, Nick Davies, Glyn Howarth, Mr Gerald Munt, Tessa Bone, Mr Peter Davis, rh Mr David Howell, John Murray, Sheryll Bottomley, Peter de Bois, Nick Hughes, Simon Murrison, Dr Andrew Bradley, Karen Dinenage, Caroline Huhne, rh Chris Neill, Robert Brady, Mr Graham Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Newmark, Mr Brooks Brake, Tom Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hunter, Mark Newton, Sarah Bray, Angie Dorries, Nadine Brazier, Mr Julian Doyle-Price, Jackie Huppert, Dr Julian Nokes, Caroline Bridgen, Andrew Drax, Richard Hurd, Mr Nick Norman, Jesse Brine, Mr Steve Duddridge, James Jackson, Mr Stewart O’Brien, Mr Stephen Brokenshire, James Duncan, rh Mr Alan Javid, Sajid Offord, Mr Matthew Brooke, Annette Dunne, Mr Philip Jenkin, Mr Bernard Ollerenshaw, Eric Browne, Mr Jeremy Ellis, Michael Johnson, Gareth Opperman, Guy Bruce, Fiona Ellison, Jane Johnson, Joseph Ottaway, Richard Bruce, rh Malcolm Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Andrew Paice, Mr James Buckland, Mr Robert Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Mr David Parish, Neil Burley, Mr Aidan Eustice, George Jones, Mr Marcus Patel, Priti 1095 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1096 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Pawsey, Mark Stewart, Rory Dowd, Jim McKechin, Ann Penning, Mike Streeter, Mr Gary Doyle, Gemma McKinnell, Catherine Penrose, John Stride, Mel Dromey, Jack Meacher, rh Mr Michael Percy, Andrew Stunell, Andrew Durkan, Mark Mearns, Ian Perry, Claire Sturdy, Julian Efford, Clive Michael, rh Alun Phillips, Stephen Swales, Ian Elliott, Julie Miller, Andrew Pickles, rh Mr Eric Swayne, Mr Desmond Engel, Natascha Mitchell, Austin Pincher, Christopher Swinson, Jo Esterson, Bill Moon, Mrs Madeleine Poulter, Dr Daniel Swire, Mr Hugo Field, rh Mr Frank Morden, Jessica Prisk, Mr Mark Syms, Mr Robert Flint, rh Caroline Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Pritchard, Mark Teather, Sarah Flynn, Paul Morris, Grahame M. Pugh, Dr John Thurso, John Gapes, Mike (Easington) Raab, Mr Dominic Timpson, Mr Edward Gardiner, Barry Mudie, Mr George Randall, rh Mr John Tomlinson, Justin Gilmore, Sheila Murray, Ian Reckless, Mark Tredinnick, David Glass, Pat Nash, Pamela Redwood, rh Mr John Truss, Elizabeth Glindon, Mrs Mary Nuttall, Mr David Rees-Mogg, Jacob Tyrie, Mr Andrew Goggins, rh Paul Onwurah, Chi Reevell, Simon Uppal, Paul Goodman, Helen Osborne, Sandra Reid, Mr Alan Vaizey, Mr Edward Greatrex, Tom Owen, Albert Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Vickers, Martin Green, Kate Perkins, Toby Robathan, Mr Andrew Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Greenwood, Lilian Phillipson, Bridget Robertson, Hugh Walker, Mr Charles Griffith, Nia Reed, Mr Jamie Robertson, Mr Laurence Walker, Mr Robin Hain, rh Mr Peter Reeves, Rachel Rosindell, Andrew Wallace, Mr Ben Hamilton, Mr David Reynolds, Jonathan Rudd, Amber Walter, Mr Robert Hamilton, Mr Fabian Robertson, John Ruffley, Mr David Ward, Mr David Hanson, rh Mr David Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Russell, Bob Watkinson, Angela Harman, rh Ms Harriet Rotheram, Steve Rutley, David Weatherley, Mike Healey, rh John Roy, Lindsay Sanders, Mr Adrian Webb, Steve Heyes, David Ruane, Chris Sandys, Laura Wharton, James Hillier, Meg Sarwar, Anas Scott, Mr Lee Wheeler, Heather Hilling, Julie Seabeck, Alison Selous, Andrew White, Chris Hoey, Kate Shannon, Jim Shapps, rh Grant Whittaker, Craig Hollobone, Mr Sheridan, Jim Sharma, Alok Whittingdale, Mr John Philip Shuker, Gavin Shelbrooke, Alec Wiggin, Bill Hosie, Stewart Simpson, David Simmonds, Mark Willetts, rh Mr David Howarth, rh Mr George Skinner, Mr Dennis Simpson, Mr Keith Williams, Mr Mark Hunt, Tristram Slaughter, Mr Andy Skidmore, Chris Williams, Roger Irranca-Davies, Huw Smith, Angela Smith, Miss Chloe Williams, Stephen Jamieson, Cathy Smith, Nick Smith, Henry Williamson, Gavin Johnson, Diana R. Smith, Owen Smith, Julian Willott, Jenny Jones, Graham Soulsby, Sir Peter Smith, Sir Robert Wilson, Mr Rob Jones, Mr Kevan Spellar, rh Mr John Soames, Nicholas Wright, Simon Jones, Susan Elan Stringer, Graham Joyce, Eric Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Soubry, Anna Yeo, Mr Tim Spencer, Mr Mark Keeley, Barbara Tami, Mark Young, rh Sir George Stanley, rh Sir John Keen, Alan Turner, Mr Andrew Zahawi, Nadhim Stephenson, Andrew Kendall, Liz Turner, Karl Stevenson, John Tellers for the Ayes: Khan, rh Sadiq Twigg, Derek Stewart, Bob Mr Shailesh Vara and Lavery, Ian Umunna, Mr Chuka Stewart, Iain Jeremy Wright Leslie, Chris Vaz, Valerie Lloyd, Tony Walley, Joan NOES Long, Naomi Watson, Mr Tom Love, Mr Andrew Weir, Mr Mike Abbott, Ms Diane Clark, Katy Lucas, Caroline Williams, Hywel Austin, Ian Clarke, rh Mr Tom Lucas, Ian Williamson, Chris Bain, Mr William Coaker, Vernon MacNeil, Mr Angus Wilson, Phil Balls, rh Ed Cooper, Rosie Brendan Wilson, Sammy Banks, Gordon Creasy, Stella Mactaggart, Fiona Winnick, Mr David Beckett, rh Margaret Cryer, John Mahmood, Shabana Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Begg, Miss Anne Cunningham, Alex Mann, John Wishart, Pete Benn, rh Hilary Cunningham, Mr Jim McCabe, Steve Wood, Mike Benton, Mr Joe Cunningham, Tony McCarthy, Kerry Woodcock, John McClymont, Gregg Betts, Mr Clive Curran, Margaret Wright, David McCrea, Dr William Blackman-Woods, Roberta Dakin, Nic Wright, Mr Iain Blears, rh Hazel Danczuk, Simon McDonnell, John Blenkinsop, Tom David, Mr Wayne McFadden, rh Mr Pat Tellers for the Noes: Brown, Mr Russell Davidson, Mr Ian McGovern, Jim Lyn Brown and McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Bryant, Chris Davies, Geraint Stephen Pound Byrne, rh Mr Liam De Piero, Gloria Campbell, Mr Alan Denham, rh Mr John Question accordingly agreed to. Campbell, Mr Ronnie Docherty, Thomas Clause 9, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. Chope, Mr Christopher Dodds, rh Mr Nigel 1097 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1098 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Clause 10 Gummer, Ben McCartney, Jason Gyimah, Mr Sam McCartney, Karl BOUNDARY COMMISSION PROPOSALS: PUBLICITY AND Halfon, Robert McIntosh, Miss Anne Hames, Duncan McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick CONSULTATION Hammond, rh Mr Philip McPartland, Stephen Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill. Hancock, Mr Mike McVey, Esther The Committee proceeded to a Division. Hands, Greg Menzies, Mark Harper, Mr Mark Mercer, Patrick The First Deputy Chairman: I ask the Serjeant at Harrington, Richard Metcalfe, Stephen Arms to investigate the delay in the No Lobby. Harris, Rebecca Miller, Maria Hart, Simon Mills, Nigel The Committee having divided: Ayes 317, Noes 133. Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Milton, Anne Division No. 93] [9.30 pm Hayes, Mr John Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Heald, Mr Oliver Mordaunt, Penny AYES Heath, Mr David Morgan, Nicky Hemming, John Morris, Anne Marie Adams, Nigel Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Henderson, Gordon Morris, David Afriyie, Adam Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hendry, Charles Morris, James Aldous, Peter Collins, Damian Herbert, rh Nick Mosley, Stephen Andrew, Stuart Colvile, Oliver Hinds, Damian Mowat, David Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hoban, Mr Mark Mulholland, Greg Bacon, Mr Richard Crabb, Stephen Hollingbery, George Mundell, rh David Bagshawe, Ms Louise Crockart, Mike Hollobone, Mr Philip Munt, Tessa Baker, Norman Crouch, Tracey Holloway, Mr Adam Murray, Sheryll Baker, Steve Davey, Mr Edward Hopkins, Kris Murrison, Dr Andrew Baldry, Tony Davies, David T. C. Horwood, Martin Neill, Robert Baldwin, Harriett (Monmouth) Howarth, Mr Gerald Newmark, Mr Brooks Barclay, Stephen Davies, Glyn Howell, John Newton, Sarah Barker, Gregory de Bois, Nick Hughes, Simon Nokes, Caroline Barwell, Gavin Dinenage, Caroline Huhne, rh Chris Norman, Jesse Bebb, Guto Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy O’Brien, Mr Stephen Beith, rh Sir Alan Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Huppert, Dr Julian Offord, Mr Matthew Bellingham, Mr Henry Dorries, Nadine Hurd, Mr Nick Ollerenshaw, Eric Beresford, Sir Paul Doyle-Price, Jackie Jackson, Mr Stewart Opperman, Guy Berry, Jake Drax, Richard Javid, Sajid Ottaway, Richard Bingham, Andrew Duddridge, James Jenkin, Mr Bernard Parish, Neil Binley, Mr Brian Duncan, rh Mr Alan Johnson, Gareth Patel, Priti Birtwistle, Gordon Dunne, Mr Philip Johnson, Joseph Pawsey, Mark Blackman, Bob Ellis, Michael Jones, Andrew Penning, Mike Blackwood, Nicola Ellison, Jane Jones, Mr David Penrose, John Blunt, Mr Crispin Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Mr Marcus Percy, Andrew Boles, Nick Elphicke, Charlie Kawczynski, Daniel Perry, Claire Bone, Mr Peter Eustice, George Kelly, Chris Phillips, Stephen Bottomley, Peter Evans, Graham Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Pickles, rh Mr Eric Bradley, Karen Evans, Jonathan Kirby, Simon Pincher, Christopher Brady, Mr Graham Evennett, Mr David Knight, rh Mr Greg Poulter, Dr Daniel Brake, Tom Fabricant, Michael Kwarteng, Kwasi Prisk, Mr Mark Bray, Angie Farron, Tim Laing, Mrs Eleanor Pritchard, Mark Brazier, Mr Julian Featherstone, Lynne Lamb, Norman Pugh, Dr John Bridgen, Andrew Foster, Mr Don Lancaster, Mark Raab, Mr Dominic Brine, Mr Steve Fox,rhDrLiam Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Randall, rh Mr John Brokenshire, James Francois, rh Mr Mark Latham, Pauline Reckless, Mark Brooke, Annette Freeman, George Leadsom, Andrea Redwood, rh Mr John Browne, Mr Jeremy Fullbrook, Lorraine Lee, Jessica Rees-Mogg, Jacob Bruce, Fiona Fuller, Richard Lee, Dr Phillip Reevell, Simon Bruce, rh Malcolm Garnier, Mr Edward Leech, Mr John Reid, Mr Alan Buckland, Mr Robert Garnier, Mark Lefroy, Jeremy Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Burley, Mr Aidan Gauke, Mr David Leslie, Charlotte Robathan, Mr Andrew Burns, Conor George, Andrew Lewis, Brandon Robertson, Hugh Burns, Mr Simon Gibb, Mr Nick Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Robertson, Mr Laurence Burrowes, Mr David Gilbert, Stephen Lilley, rh Mr Peter Rogerson, Dan Burstow, Paul Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lloyd, Stephen Rosindell, Andrew Burt, Alistair Glen, John Lopresti, Jack Rudd, Amber Byles, Dan Goldsmith, Zac Lord, Jonathan Ruffley, Mr David Cairns, Alun Goodwill, Mr Robert Loughton, Tim Russell, Bob Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Graham, Richard Luff, Peter Rutley, David Carmichael, Mr Alistair Gray, Mr James Lumley, Karen Sanders, Mr Adrian Carmichael, Neil Grayling, rh Chris Macleod, Mary Sandys, Laura Carswell, Mr Douglas Green, Damian Main, Mrs Anne Scott, Mr Lee Chishti, Rehman Greening, Justine Maude, rh Mr Francis Selous, Andrew Clappison, Mr James Grieve, rh Mr Dominic May, rh Mrs Theresa Shapps, rh Grant Clark, rh Greg Griffiths, Andrew Maynard, Paul Sharma, Alok 1099 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1100 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Shelbrooke, Alec Vaizey, Mr Edward Lucas, Caroline Roy, Lindsay Simmonds, Mark Vickers, Martin MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Ruane, Chris Simpson, Mr Keith Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Mactaggart, Fiona Sarwar, Anas Skidmore, Chris Walker, Mr Charles Mahmood, Shabana Shannon, Jim Smith, Miss Chloe Walker, Mr Robin Mann, John Sheridan, Jim Smith, Henry Wallace, Mr Ben McCabe, Steve Shuker, Gavin Smith, Julian Walter, Mr Robert McCarthy, Kerry Simpson, David Smith, Sir Robert Ward, Mr David McClymont, Gregg Skinner, Mr Dennis Soames, Nicholas Watkinson, Angela McCrea, Dr William Slaughter, Mr Andy Stanley, rh Sir John Weatherley, Mike McDonnell, John Smith, Angela Stephenson, Andrew Webb, Steve McGovern, Jim Smith, Nick Stevenson, John Wharton, James McKechin, Ann Smith, Owen Stewart, Bob Wheeler, Heather McKinnell, Catherine Soulsby, Sir Peter Stewart, Iain White, Chris Meacher, rh Mr Michael Spellar, rh Mr John Stewart, Rory Whittaker, Craig Mearns, Ian Stringer, Graham Streeter, Mr Gary Whittingdale, Mr John Michael, rh Alun Tami, Mark Stride, Mel Wiggin, Bill Miller, Andrew Twigg, Derek Stunell, Andrew Willetts, rh Mr David Morden, Jessica Umunna, Mr Chuka Sturdy, Julian Williams, Mr Mark Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Vaz, Valerie Swales, Ian Williams, Roger Morris, Grahame M. Weir, Mr Mike Swayne, Mr Desmond Williams, Stephen (Easington) Williams, Hywel Swinson, Jo Williamson, Gavin Murray, Ian Williamson, Chris Swire, Mr Hugo Willott, Jenny Nash, Pamela Wilson, Phil Syms, Mr Robert Wilson, Mr Rob Nuttall, Mr David Wilson, Sammy Teather, Sarah Wright, Jeremy Onwurah, Chi Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Thurso, John Wright, Simon Osborne, Sandra Wishart, Pete Owen, Albert Timpson, Mr Edward Yeo, Mr Tim Wood, Mike Tomlinson, Justin Perkins, Toby Young, rh Sir George Woodcock, John Tredinnick, David Phillipson, Bridget Zahawi, Nadhim Wright, David Truss, Elizabeth Reeves, Rachel Turner, Mr Andrew Tellers for the Ayes: Reynolds, Jonathan Tellers for the Noes: Tyrie, Mr Andrew Mr Shailesh Vara and Robertson, John Mr David Hamilton and Uppal, Paul Mark Hunter Rotheram, Steve Stephen Pound

NOES Question accordingly agreed to. Abbott, Ms Diane Esterson, Bill Clause 10 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Austin, Ian Field, rh Mr Frank Bain, Mr William Flynn, Paul Balls, rh Ed Gapes, Mike Clause 11 Banks, Gordon Gilmore, Sheila Beckett, rh Margaret Glass, Pat NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES Begg, Miss Anne Glindon, Mrs Mary Amendments made: 163, page 11, line 30, leave out Benn, rh Hilary Goodman, Helen ‘Secretary of State’ and insert ‘Minister’. Betts, Mr Clive Greatrex, Tom Blackman-Woods, Roberta Green, Kate Amendment 164, page 11, line 34, leave out Blenkinsop, Tom Greenwood, Lilian ‘Secretary of State’ and insert ‘Minister’. Brown, Lyn Griffith, Nia Amendment 165, page 11, line 35, leave out Brown, Mr Russell Hain, rh Mr Peter ‘Secretary of State’ and insert ‘Minister’. Bryant, Chris Hamilton, Mr Fabian Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hanson, rh Mr David Amendment 166, page 11, line 40, leave out Campbell, Mr Alan Healey, rh John ‘Secretary of State’ and insert ‘Minister’. Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hillier, Meg Amendment 167, page 12, line 18, at end insert— Clark, Katy Hilling, Julie ‘( ) In this section “the Minister” means the Lord President of Coaker, Vernon Hoey, Kate the Council or the Secretary of State.’.—(Mr Heath.) Cooper, Rosie Hosie, Stewart Question proposed, That the clause, as amended, Creasy, Stella Howarth, rh Mr George stand part of the Bill. Cryer, John Hunt, Tristram Cunningham, Alex Jamieson, Cathy The Committee proceeded to a Division. Cunningham, Mr Jim Johnson, Diana R. Cunningham, Tony Jones, Graham The First Deputy Chairman: I ask the Serjeant at Curran, Margaret Jones, Mr Kevan Arms to investigate the delay in the No Lobby. Dakin, Nic Jones, Susan Elan The Committee having divided: Ayes 305, Noes 114. Danczuk, Simon Joyce, Eric David, Mr Wayne Keen, Alan Division No. 94] [9.47 pm Davidson, Mr Ian Kendall, Liz Davies, Geraint Khan, rh Sadiq AYES Docherty, Thomas Lavery, Ian Adams, Nigel Bagshawe, Ms Louise Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Leslie, Chris Afriyie, Adam Baker, Norman Doyle, Gemma Lloyd, Tony Aldous, Peter Baker, Steve Durkan, Mark Long, Naomi Andrew, Stuart Baldry, Tony Elliott, Julie Love, Mr Andrew Bacon, Mr Richard Baldwin, Harriett 1101 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 Parliamentary Voting System and 1102 Constituencies Bill Constituencies Bill Barclay, Stephen Farron, Tim Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Reckless, Mark Barker, Gregory Featherstone, Lynne Latham, Pauline Redwood, rh Mr John Barwell, Gavin Foster, Mr Don Leadsom, Andrea Rees-Mogg, Jacob Bebb, Guto Fox,rhDrLiam Lee, Jessica Reevell, Simon Beith, rh Sir Alan Francois, rh Mr Mark Lee, Dr Phillip Reid, Mr Alan Beresford, Sir Paul Freeman, George Leech, Mr John Robertson, Hugh Berry, Jake Fullbrook, Lorraine Lefroy, Jeremy Robertson, Mr Laurence Bingham, Andrew Fuller, Richard Leslie, Charlotte Rogerson, Dan Birtwistle, Gordon Garnier, Mr Edward Lewis, Brandon Rosindell, Andrew Blackman, Bob Garnier, Mark Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rudd, Amber Blackwood, Nicola Gauke, Mr David Lilley, rh Mr Peter Ruffley, Mr David Blunt, Mr Crispin George, Andrew Lloyd, Stephen Russell, Bob Boles, Nick Gibb, Mr Nick Lopresti, Jack Rutley, David Bone, Mr Peter Gilbert, Stephen Lord, Jonathan Sanders, Mr Adrian Bottomley, Peter Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Loughton, Tim Sandys, Laura Bradley, Karen Glen, John Luff, Peter Scott, Mr Lee Brake, Tom Goldsmith, Zac Lumley, Karen Selous, Andrew Bray, Angie Goodwill, Mr Robert Macleod, Mary Shapps, rh Grant Brazier, Mr Julian Graham, Richard Main, Mrs Anne Sharma, Alok Bridgen, Andrew Gray, Mr James May, rh Mrs Theresa Shelbrooke, Alec Brine, Mr Steve Grayling, rh Chris Maynard, Paul Simmonds, Mark Brokenshire, James Green, Damian McCartney, Jason Simpson, Mr Keith Brooke, Annette Greening, Justine McCartney, Karl Skidmore, Chris Browne, Mr Jeremy Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Miss Chloe Bruce, Fiona Griffiths, Andrew McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Henry Bruce, rh Malcolm Gummer, Ben McPartland, Stephen Smith, Julian Buckland, Mr Robert Gyimah, Mr Sam McVey, Esther Smith, Sir Robert Burley, Mr Aidan Halfon, Robert Menzies, Mark Soames, Nicholas Burns, Conor Hames, Duncan Mercer, Patrick Stanley, rh Sir John Burns, Mr Simon Hancock, Mr Mike Metcalfe, Stephen Stephenson, Andrew Burrowes, Mr David Hands, Greg Miller, Maria Stevenson, John Burstow, Paul Harper, Mr Mark Mills, Nigel Stewart, Bob Burt, Alistair Harrington, Richard Milton, Anne Stewart, Iain Byles, Dan Harris, Rebecca Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stewart, Rory Cairns, Alun Hart, Simon Mordaunt, Penny Streeter, Mr Gary Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morgan, Nicky Stride, Mel Carmichael, Mr Alistair Hayes, Mr John Morris, Anne Marie Stunell, Andrew Carmichael, Neil Heald, Mr Oliver Morris, David Sturdy, Julian Carswell, Mr Douglas Heath, Mr David Morris, James Swales, Ian Chishti, Rehman Hemming, John Mosley, Stephen Swayne, Mr Desmond Clappison, Mr James Henderson, Gordon Mowat, David Swinson, Jo Clark, rh Greg Hendry, Charles Mulholland, Greg Swire, Mr Hugo Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Herbert, rh Nick Mundell, rh David Syms, Mr Robert Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hinds, Damian Munt, Tessa Teather, Sarah Collins, Damian Hoban, Mr Mark Murray, Sheryll Timpson, Mr Edward Colvile, Oliver Hollingbery, George Murrison, Dr Andrew Tomlinson, Justin Crabb, Stephen Hollobone, Mr Philip Neill, Robert Tredinnick, David Crockart, Mike Holloway, Mr Adam Newmark, Mr Brooks Truss, Elizabeth Crouch, Tracey Hopkins, Kris Newton, Sarah Turner, Mr Andrew Davey, Mr Edward Horwood, Martin Nokes, Caroline Tyrie, Mr Andrew Davies, David T. C. Howarth, Mr Gerald Norman, Jesse Uppal, Paul (Monmouth) Howell, John O’Brien, Mr Stephen Vaizey, Mr Edward Davies, Glyn Huhne, rh Chris Offord, Mr Matthew Vara, Mr Shailesh de Bois, Nick Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Ollerenshaw, Eric Vickers, Martin Dinenage, Caroline Huppert, Dr Julian Opperman, Guy Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hurd, Mr Nick Ottaway, Richard Walker, Mr Charles Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Jackson, Mr Stewart Parish, Neil Walker, Mr Robin Dorries, Nadine Javid, Sajid Patel, Priti Wallace, Mr Ben Doyle-Price, Jackie Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pawsey, Mark Walter, Mr Robert Drax, Richard Johnson, Gareth Penning, Mike Ward, Mr David Duddridge, James Johnson, Joseph Penrose, John Watkinson, Angela Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jones, Andrew Percy, Andrew Weatherley, Mike Dunne, Mr Philip Jones, Mr David Perry, Claire Webb, Steve Ellis, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Phillips, Stephen Wharton, James Ellison, Jane Kawczynski, Daniel Pickles, rh Mr Eric Wheeler, Heather Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kelly, Chris Pincher, Christopher White, Chris Elphicke, Charlie Kirby, Simon Poulter, Dr Daniel Whittaker, Craig Eustice, George Knight, rh Mr Greg Prisk, Mr Mark Whittingdale, Mr John Evans, Graham Kwarteng, Kwasi Pritchard, Mark Wiggin, Bill Evans, Jonathan Laing, Mrs Eleanor Pugh, Dr John Willetts, rh Mr David Evennett, Mr David Lamb, Norman Raab, Mr Dominic Williams, Mr Mark Fabricant, Michael Lancaster, Mark Randall, rh Mr John Williams, Roger 1103 Parliamentary Voting System and 20 OCTOBER 2010 1104 Constituencies Bill Williams, Stephen Young, rh Sir George Murray, Ian Smith, Nick Williamson, Gavin Zahawi, Nadhim Nash, Pamela Smith, Owen Willott, Jenny Osborne, Sandra Soulsby, Sir Peter Wilson, Mr Rob Tellers for the Ayes: Owen, Albert Stringer, Graham Wright, Simon Mark Hunter and Perkins, Toby Tami, Mark Yeo, Mr Tim Jeremy Wright Phillipson, Bridget Twigg, Derek Reeves, Rachel Umunna, Mr Chuka NOES Reynolds, Jonathan Vaz, Valerie Robertson, John Williams, Hywel Abbott, Ms Diane Green, Kate Rotheram, Steve Williamson, Chris Bain, Mr William Greenwood, Lilian Roy, Lindsay Wilson, Phil Banks, Gordon Griffith, Nia Ruane, Chris Wilson, Sammy Beckett, rh Margaret Hanson, rh Mr David Sarwar, Anas Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Benn, rh Hilary Healey, rh John Shannon, Jim Wood, Mike Betts, Mr Clive Hendrick, Mark Sheridan, Jim Woodcock, John Blenkinsop, Tom Hilling, Julie Shuker, Gavin Wright, David Brown, Lyn Howarth, rh Mr George Skinner, Mr Dennis Brown, Mr Russell Jamieson, Cathy Tellers for the Noes: Slaughter, Mr Andy Bryant, Chris Johnson, Diana R. Stephen Pound and Campbell, Mr Alan Jones, Graham Smith, Angela Mr David Hamilton Campbell, Mr Ronnie Jones, Mr Kevan Clark, Katy Jones, Susan Elan Question accordingly agreed to. Coaker, Vernon Joyce, Eric Clause 11, as amended, ordered to stand part of Cooper, Rosie Keen, Alan the Bill. Creasy, Stella Khan, rh Sadiq Cryer, John Lavery, Ian Clauses 12 and 13 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Cunningham, Alex Leslie, Chris Schedule 7 agreed to. Cunningham, Mr Jim Lloyd, Tony Cunningham, Tony Long, Naomi Clauses 14 to 17 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Curran, Margaret Lucas, Caroline The occupant of the Chair left the Chair (Programme Dakin, Nic Mactaggart, Fiona Order, 12 and 19 October). Danczuk, Simon Mahmood, Shabana The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. David, Mr Wayne Mann, John Davidson, Mr Ian McCabe, Steve Progress reported; Committee to sit again tomorrow. Davies, Geraint McCarthy, Kerry De Piero, Gloria McClymont, Gregg Business without Debate Docherty, Thomas McCrea, Dr William Dodds, rh Mr Nigel McDonnell, John Doyle, Gemma McGovern, Jim DELEGATED LEGISLATION Durkan, Mark McKechin, Ann Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Elliott, Julie McKinnell, Catherine Order No. 118(6)), Esterson, Bill Meacher, rh Mr Michael Flynn, Paul Mearns, Ian REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE Gapes, Mike Michael, rh Alun Gilmore, Sheila Miller, Andrew That the draft Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Glass, Pat Morden, Jessica (Civil Sanctions) Order 2010, which was laid before this House Glindon, Mrs Mary Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) on 8 April, in the previous Parliament, be approved.— Goodman, Helen Morris, Grahame M. (Miss Chloe Smith.) Greatrex, Tom (Easington) Question agreed to. 1105 20 OCTOBER 2010 Television and Radio Reception 1106 (Thanet and East Kent) Television and Radio Reception (Thanet legislation governing the licensing of televisions. Is it and East Kent) fair to license a box or a flat screen that is unable to receive anything? Should the licence not relate to whether Motion made, and Question proposed, That this the box can deliver its function—that of receiving television House do now adjourn.—(Miss Chloe Smith.) programming? We would like to address two key issues: what we can 10.3 pm do now to support our residents with better coverage Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): I thank the and, possibly more importantly, what will happen following Minister for very kindly coming to the House to debate digital switchover. Today, analogue coverage is bad in something that is not of obvious interest to people some areas and poor in many, and digital services are beyond myself, my hon. Friend the Member for North very sporadic, with even Sky users unable to receive Thanet (Mr Gale) and, of course, the Minister himself. good coverage all the time. Digital radio coverage is Although we aim to be unique in many ways in Thanet also limited. and have a huge amount to be proud about, turning on I know that my hon. Friend the Minister’s partners the television and watching the black snow on our have been working hard on the matter, but I should analogue TVs or the even more annoying pixel scramble welcome an update on the findings of the BBC’s reception on current digital TVs is not something that we want to assessment, which it undertook a few weeks ago after a excel in. request from my hon. Friend the Member for North Our world is often cut short in midstream: just as the Thanet and myself. It was excellent that the BBC was first Chilean miner is released from his lair, we have not able to go down and undertake that work. I also understand the popping of Chilean champagne but the crackle of that Arqiva is in talks with Thanet college about putting our TVs with moonscape replacing celebrations; the up a transmitter, and I should welcome an update on final moment of “The X Factor” is suddenly replaced that option. If that is not possible, what other options, by the emergence of a screeching pixel reorganisation such as improving the signal from the Ramsgate repeater that makes chalk on a blackboard seem like an appealing station, can be investigated? noise; and can hon. Members imagine, when waiting for Some immediate improvement would be most welcome, my right hon. Friend the Member for Witney (Mr Cameron) but the future digital switchover also concerns us, because to emerge as Prime Minister in May, the sound from the expert information that I have received does not expensive and aggressively marketed digital radio cracking indicate a smooth switchover in 2012. EURIM states up on them? We in Thanet no longer want to be left at that if the broadcasting infrastructure is not in place the end of the line or without a signal. We do not want now, digital will not provide a significantly better service to be left out of the action. We certainly do want to join than we have today. The service will be a bit better, but the real televisual world, but as we are without reliable not adequate. Mentor Technology, in its submission to television, and with digital radio on the blink, we are yet the Culture, Media and Sport Committee report in again left out. 2006, stated that those areas with existing marginal I thank all the agencies involved with TV and radio terrestrial coverage with poor quality today might not reception—BBC, Ofcom, Arqiva and my hon. Friend receive any digital picture at all. And this year Digital the Minister’s Department—for their work to secure UK stated: better coverage. They have been striving to find solutions “The digital television switchover programme will aim to ensure to the problem, but the local survey that my hon. Friend that substantially the same proportion of UK households that the Member for North Thanet (Mr Gale) and I undertook currently receive analogue terrestrial TV services will continue to revealed that the problem was more severe than the receive public service broadcasting in digital terrestrial form. It authorities realised. will not directly address bringing digital television services to Broadstairs was seen as the black hole for TV coverage, those who have not previously had access to analogue terrestrial services.” and it most certainly is, but bad—really quite bad—coverage is not the exclusive privilege of Broadstairs. The harbour Its website reveals that quite a few parts of my constituency area of Ramsgate has very patchy coverage, and parts will get only four to eight channels, with poor or no of Cliftonville get no coverage at all. North Thanet has coverage for the rest of the channels. That does not its black spots, too, in Westgate and Westbrook. From bode well. our rough calculations, about 6,000 households throughout So we are calling on the Minister to address our Thanet do not get adequate coverage, while some do existing and future reception problems. First, is the not get coverage at all. infrastructure in place to provide us with reasonable Those problems mean that Thanet is probably the analogue reception? Is this about upgrading existing largest population area without adequate television and relay masts or adding new ones? In areas where new digital radio coverage, and that has a human impact. I masts are difficult to install, can the Minister investigate know of an older lady who is housebound in Ramsgate, the possibility of connection to the high-speed fibre pays good money for her TV licence—she does not yet optic cable running from Broadstairs to Canterbury? qualify for her free TV licence—and can get ITV 1 Are we sure that the infrastructure will deliver full sometimes but nothing else. I have had letters from digital coverage at the time of switchover? If there are residents of large retirement blocks that get virtually no going to be pockets of limited or no coverage, what can coverage at all. Those who can afford it subscribe to the Minister do? Will there be a scheme of free purchase Sky, but Thanet is the 64th poorest district in the and installation of Freesat? If so, how will that be country, so not everyone has that luxury. achieved through the planning process, given that we Why should people pay a licence fee for the privilege have several conservation areas? Given our current problems of getting television if they are then forced to supplement with the reception of Sky, even Freesat does not necessarily it with additional fees? It raises questions about the guarantee adequate reception. 1107 Television and Radio Reception 20 OCTOBER 2010 Television and Radio Reception 1108 (Thanet and East Kent) (Thanet and East Kent) [Laura Sandys] The status of the digital radio switchover, to which my hon. Friend also referred, is slightly different from If we cannot secure reception, what will happen to that for digital TV. While we are fully committed to Thanet? Would anyone move their family to an area securing a digital future for radio, we believe that a digital that did not receive TV? New essential services would radio switchover is the right way to deliver a co-ordinated be broadcast—would Thanet need a carrier pigeon transition. However, we have not set a specific date for system? Wouldwe end up living in a cultural, entertainment digital radio switchover, although we have agreed that and current affairs oblivion? Would my constituents 2015 should be the target date. We have also set out a suffer from not being able to see their local MP on robust digital radio action plan to take this forward. regional news? I want to concentrate my remarks on the issues in We need the Minister’s assurances that our situation Broadstairs that my hon. Friend highlighted. As I say, it will be significantly improved after switchover and that is good to see my hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet will not be yet again left at the end of the line. If Thanet, who has represented his constituents so assiduously we are not guaranteed proper digital coverage, I will for many years, here too. As my hon. Friends are aware, personally ensure that throughout the World cup in Ofcom is responsible for ensuring, as part of the switchover 2014, the Minister is forced to join my constituents and process, that digital terrestrial TV coverage is substantially me for an evening of popcorn, moonscape and French the same as existing analogue coverage, but analogue radio. covers only 98.5% of the population. It is therefore important, as the starting point of this debate, to recognise 10.12 pm that there is, unfortunately, no absolute right to TV coverage. People who currently live outside the analogue The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, coverage area and want to watch television sometimes Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): I have to incur additional costs, whether by getting a congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South specialised aerial or another TV platform such as satellite. Thanet (Laura Sandys) on securing this important debate That does not just mean Sky, as Freesat is now also on access to digital television and radio for her constituents. available. Her speech reflected her passionate work on behalf of her constituents on a whole range of issues. I know Nevertheless, it is obviously common sense that we from conversations that we have had outside the Chamber want as many people as possible to have access to a how seriously she takes the subject of this debate. service which the vast majority of the population enjoys, and Ofcom is doing all it reasonably can to ensure that I could find only one mistake in her speech: she said viewers have access to digital terrestrial TV after switchover. that the issue was of interest only to me, her and our There are inevitably constraints, not least the availability august hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet of suitable frequencies. In respect of the constituency (Mr Gale). However, I see that we are joined by my hon. represented by my hon. Friend the Member for South Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Thanet, the difficulty, as she must be aware, is the Eustice) so, clearly, the issue stretches beyond the borders proximity to France. That makes options for Broadstairs of Thanet. more limited, as it is apparently a matter of Government I take an interest in this matter because I am the policy that we do not want to interfere with French Minister responsible for it, but I must also put on television signals any more than we want the French to record the fact that as a young child I spent every interfere with ours. summer holiday in Ramsgate with my Auntie Joan and Uncle Freddy. Freddy Drake was the headmaster of The specific issue regarding the coverage in my hon. St Clement Danes school, which I assume still thrives Friend’s constituency is transmitter location. Ofcom strongly, and he received an OBE, having served on the has the power to require the broadcasters to fill an executive of the National Union of Teachers at a time identified gap in digital television coverage by building when that trade union was an august and responsible a new relay transmitter. The problem in Broadstairs, as body. she is only too aware, is that the only suitable location that Ofcom has been able to identify is Thanet college, Let me return to the subject before the House tonight, which is apparently currently unable to host a mast that however. I shall start with the national picture. We would allow a TV signal to be beamed into Broadstairs. continue to make good progress on the digital switchover, She may be more aware of the reasons behind the and by the end of August almost 7 million people, difficulties that the college faces, although I am led to representing about 25% of UK homes, will have completed believe that it may be because it has plans to develop the the switchover, and a further 10.5 million homes will site in the future and a new relay transmitter might switch next year. It has so far been an almost flawless prevent this. process, although ironically the only glitch to have occurred so far took place in Oxfordshire, where the Although this option would clearly offer a solution, it new digital TV aerial burned down, thus affecting television is ultimately, I suspect, a matter for the college what it coverage for thousands of my own constituents for six wants to do with its land and property. It occurs to me, months. As a constituency MP, I have some experience however, that as a Minister one obtains such information, of what it is like when constituents are not receiving a to a certain extent, second hand, and I would be only good television signal. Next year is going to be equally too delighted to have a meeting with her, my hon. challenging, with 21 regional switchovers and 25 retuning Friend the Member for North Thanet, Arqiva and events. An enormous amount of planning is going into representatives of Thanet college if that proved possible making switchover a success, and I am confident that to arrange, either in the House or possibly as part of a nationally the TV switchover programme will continue visit to my late aunt and uncle’s home—my old holiday to remain on track. home—in Fitzroy avenue in Ramsgate. 1109 Television and Radio Reception 20 OCTOBER 2010 Television and Radio Reception 1110 (Thanet and East Kent) (Thanet and East Kent) As I understand it, the key issue regarding Thanet referred. It will enable Ofcom to record the strength and college is that there are unfortunately no other suitable robustness of analogue signals in the areas that she has sites which are not prohibitively expensive. I shall dwell identified as having possible problems. on that point briefly. Of course, if money were no I understand that Ofcom’s preliminary analysis suggests object, it might be possible to solve the problem, just as that the relatively poor reception of digital terrestrial it would be possible to provide a signal to the 1.5% of television signals reported by many of my hon. Friend’s the population who do not currently get an analogue constituents could stem from the current low power TV signal. However, I am afraid that cost inevitably operation of the local digital transmitters prior to switchover comes into the equation, particularly on a day such as in 2012. When switchover takes place, the power of the today, and it would not be right to place on broadcasters local transmitters will be increased and the local relay a significant cost relative to the number of viewers transmitters will move over to digital operation. They served. are not currently operating at full power, because they In the case in question, Ofcom estimates that about are also having to run a dual analogue signal. That 2,500 of my hon. Friend’s constituents are affected. should lead to a significant improvement in the reception That means that their coverage does not meet the of digital television signals. That might offer her some threshold for good reception, which is defined as a good comfort that switchover could improve the problem service for 99% of the time. However, Ofcom’s coverage significantly. model suggests that all those affected should have a I was delighted by my hon. Friend’s kind remarks good service for 95% of the time. I do not want to be about the various stakeholders involved, and I am pleased dismissive, particularly in the light of being threatened that Ofcom is approaching the problem so thoroughly. I with having to watch the World cup with my hon. hope that its results may point a way towards ensuring a Friend. Everyone knows how exasperating it is when robust digital television signal after switchover. the picture freezes just before a penalty kick or a crucial TV switchover has been very successful to date, and I point in a drama, but on Ofcom’s analysis, that is not have every confidence that it will continue to be so. It is the same as receiving no TV service at all. not all plain sailing, and there are some areas where I have already mentioned that there may be other reception is patchy, but I hope I have made it clear that ways of getting a television signal, through either satellite Ofcom is doing all it reasonably can to ensure that or aerials. There is a cost involved, but the cost of people continue to receive a good signal post-switchover. Freesat is a one-off and there is no ongoing subscription. I thank my hon. Friend for raising her concerns on My hon. Friend has indicated that the problems are not behalf of her constituents, and as I said earlier, I would just limited to Broadstairs, and I am aware of the happily sit down with her to hear at first hand what the petition that she referred to, which suggests that reception problems are and consider whether, by sitting around a problems may be more widespread. She is quite reasonably table with the key players in her constituency, we might concerned that bad analogue signals now could mean be able to work towards a solution. bad signals after digital switchover. I know that Ofcom Question put and agreed to. is taking her concerns seriously, and earlier this week it carried out specific signal quality testing in the area, 10.24 pm which may correspond to the BBC testing to which she House adjourned.

253WH 20 OCTOBER 2010 Elections and Returning Officers 254WH

Parliament dealt with the difficulty in relation to Westminster Hall whether returning officers should count votes at 10 o’clock somewhat unusually, by amending primary legislation. Wednesday 20 October 2010 I tabled an amendment to the Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill. As an Opposition amendment, it looked as though it would be a talking point only, but [MARTIN CATON in the Chair] fortunately, the then Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Blackburn Elections and Returning Officers (Mr Straw), decided that the matter needed to be dealt Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting with there and then. He put his name to my amendment, be now adjourned.—(Miss Chloe Smith.) which then became part of the Bill. By a last-minute amendment to primary legislation, returning officers, 9.30 am unless they could demonstrate extenuating circumstances Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): I am for doing otherwise, were required to start counting pleased to have the opportunity to bring this matter to votes immediately on the close of poll. That gave us the the House’s attention yet again, and to see that more right results for the last general election, but surely it than one or two colleagues are here. There is some cannot be right that the law on such a matter should be interest in the matter. That is not a great surprise; if made ad hoc, in primary legislation, just a few weeks there is one thing that we can be sure Members of before a general election. Parliament know at least a little about, it is elections and the conduct of elections. My purpose in asking for this debate was to allow the There was much publicity after the general election in issues to be aired once again and to begin a general May this year, when we saw dreadful scenes that looked discussion now, I hope, to help the Minister, who I as though they came from some third world country know is intent on improving matters in that area of the whose democracy was not very well developed. People law. I also hope that we can begin a discussion that queued to vote in the general election but were unable considers what the duties of returning officers are and to do so after 10 o’clock due to rules made there and who undertakes the duty of electoral registration officer then—or, rather, interpreted on the spot—by returning and then acting returning officer. officers. Returning officers, as I am sure hon. Members are My interest in the matter did not begin on the night aware, are usually not paid officials but the high sheriff of the general election. For the record, the electoral of a county, for example: another leftover from 19th century registration officer in my constituency, who is the acting legislation that has never been properly updated. The returning officer, ran an extremely good and efficient person with the official duty and responsibility of returning election. It also had the right result. I talked to him officer is the titular head of the returning officer’s about the process throughout the build-up to the election, organisation but takes no actual part whatever in the because I was interested in such matters, and I saw how running of elections, whether day to day, annually or things were conducted in Epping Forest. It was an every four or five years. That work is done by the acting example of how an election ought to be run. returning officer. When one goes back into statute to Although the vast majority of returning officers and examine where the acting returning officer’s power derives electoral registration officers do their jobs impeccably from, one finds that it is a grey area. Those matters and are never open to criticism, others are unfortunately must be updated. In most cases, although the returning not quite up to the mark. We discovered before the officer is, perhaps, the high sheriff or lord lieutenant, general election that returning officers are responsible the acting returning officer is usually the electoral to almost no one. A debate took place in this Chamber registration officer, often a high-ranking official in a on 3 February 2010 in which such matters were examined local authority. in relation to election counts. At that point, there was a After the debacle during the general election in May, lot of fuss in the media about whether the result of the when a significant number of voters were left standing general election would become clear the day after or not outside polling stations, denied their right to vote due to until later. As it happens—hindsight is a wonderful administrative upheaval and a lack of administrative thing—the true result of that particular general election control and planning, we discovered that acting returning did not become clear for several days. However, that officers are paid a considerable fee for their work in cannot be blamed on the conduct of returning officers; organising a general election. I make no complaint it was a direct result of the decision of the electorate, about the structure of that system because, of course, which is another matter, and one that we are not here to the duties associated with organising a general election debate. only occur once every four or five years. Happily, the The question that arose before the general election general election is now likely to be on a certain date was whether the votes ought to be counted at 10 o’clock, every five years. That will perhaps aid the ability to plan immediately on the close of polls, or—as many returning because we will have far more certainty about the date officers decided—on the following day. Some of us got of an election. Indeed, we should all be happy about that. rather exercised about the decisions to wait and said that it was unacceptable behaviour on the part of returning If someone undertakes to do a job every four or five officers. We brought the matter to this Chamber, where years, of course, it should not be a permanent position—the it was well debated. However, I was extremely surprised job should be paid, and the duties allocated and required on doing serious research into the role and duties of only for that time. However, on further examination of returning officers to discover that their power and authority the situation, we discovered that very large sums were extends from a 19th century statute and has been little being paid to returning officers. That has been well modified in more than 100 years. documented so I will not read out the sums, because it 255WH Elections and Returning Officers20 OCTOBER 2010 Elections and Returning Officers 256WH

[Mrs Eleanor Laing] station and were denied their right to vote. That number may even be far greater than we estimate, because of the does not help the debate to put a particular person on situation that he has described. the spot, give a particular name and say how much he or she was paid to do a job. Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): It is also important to note that the problems arose when the Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): But that is what the turnout was not particularly high. Turnout increased hon. Lady’s Government have just done in relation to marginally in 2010 compared with the previous general everyone earning more than £80,000. I do not know election, but it was nowhere near the turnout figures of why she is being so coy about the matter. 75% or 80% that we used to have in the elections of the 1970s and 1980s. If we return to that level of turnout, I Mrs Laing: I accept the shadow Minister’s comment. suspect that the problems that occurred will be magnified I understand what he is saying, but he is making a many times over. different point on a different matter. I have a list of returning officers who allegedly did not do their jobs Mrs Laing: My hon. Friend is, as ever, absolutely very well and yet were paid sums in excess of £12,000 or right. That is one of the problems we can foresee. We £15,000 to do that particular job for a few weeks. I am are all working hard—I know that the Minister in not the kind of politician who embarrasses individual particular is doing so—to bring in individual voter members of society by announcing their names to be registration as soon as possible. We all hope that individual recorded in Hansard. We will leave that sort of thing to voter registration will encourage more people to be the tabloid press. The point is that there is no chain of involved, to register and to use their vote. We also find accountability. That is where the problem lies, and that that where the media tell people that the outcome of an is where the problem lay when we examined how returning election is a foregone conclusion, many people think officers could be required or even just encouraged to that there is no need to go and vote. If we have closer start the election count upon the close of poll. That is elections and it appears that there could, again, be a also what we discovered when inquiries where carried change of Government—let us hope not, but I suppose out correctly by the Electoral Commission into how that it will happen one day—people are more likely to administration was taken forward for the election in vote and there will be higher turnouts. May this year. If the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies It is appalling that senior people in local authorities Bill, which is currently before the House of Commons, who have a position of responsibility and normally succeeds in going through Parliament, we will have a command salaries well in excess of £100,000—usually referendum next May and it is likely there will be a high far more than that, as far as I can see from the statistics— turnout—although I have argued that that is not likely. have not properly planned for a general election and However, in any case, there will be a national plebiscite have got things so badly wrong that people were deprived where everyone will be given the opportunity to vote. of their vote. In the instances that occurred in May, it is That is not very far away. So although we will not have a fortunate that there were no cases in which the number general election for another four and a half years, we of electors who allegedly were unable to vote because of will have a full national election of sorts next May. returning officers’ maladministration was greater than Therefore, by securing this debate, I hope that I am the majority in that particular seat. Therefore, there was helping to begin the discussion on matters that need to no reason for an appeal to the courts on the election be taken into consideration before next May and the result. In one way, that is fortunate because it would next set of elections. have meant uncertainty about the results of the election. One of the subjects that has not yet been fully explored In another way, however, it is unfortunate, because the is the role of the Electoral Commission, which is still a matter has not been properly examined, which is another fairly new body. In many ways, it has been very successful. reason for my initiating this debate. However, in some ways, it is still settling into its role. When taking the advice of the Electoral Commission Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): The on how to deal with the issue of returning officers and hon. Lady is right: there is no evidence to suggest that the timing of the count, we discovered that it has no any outcome would be different as a result of people power to require returning officers to act in a particular being unable to vote on election day. However, we can manner. The Electoral Commission only has the power never be sure about how many people turned up at to issue guidance. polling stations, saw the enormously long queues that As a matter for consideration, I suggest that such a resulted from all sorts of chaos, went away again and situation is not fair. The Electoral Commission and its did not bother coming back. That was a big disincentive chairman were given the blame for what went wrong at in some areas, where people saw big queues and thought, 10 o’clock on election day, but it is not fair that they “Well, I can’t really be bothered. I’ll just go home and should take the blame when they had no power beforehand won’t bother voting.” to put matters right. At 10 o’clock on election night, the Electoral Commission had no power to say to individual Mrs Laing: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct; returning officers, “No, you can’t do this. You must I am glad he made that point. We have spoken a lot allow people to vote. You must keep the doors open.” It lately about the need to encourage people to be involved had no power to tell people to act in a particular way. in the democratic process and to encourage all age Nobody had any power. The Minister had no power; groups and people across the social and economic spectrum the Electoral Commission had no power; the local to register and use their vote. I mentioned earlier the authorities had no power. There is no line of reporting number of people who allegedly turned up at the polling or of authority for electoral registration officers and 257WH Elections and Returning Officers20 OCTOBER 2010 Elections and Returning Officers 258WH acting returning officers. In a modern democracy, where Having come directly from the centre, however, that we spend hour upon hour in the Chamber discussing money is not ring-fenced or earmarked, so there is no the minutiae of elections and their administration, as hypothecation. I am suggesting, for the sake of argument, we have done over the past few days, it is appalling to that the principle of hypothecation in that instance discover that there is no line of authority whereby the ought to be revisited. We are talking about money administration of our elections can be properly decided. allocated from central Government for a specific purpose In the run-up to the election, during which I had been over a specific period of time, so that money that comes fairly vocal about the problem of returning officers and to returning officers and local authorities for the funding the 10 o’clock vote, I found myself in a live radio debate of electoral administration ought to be hypothecated with a particular returning officer, a lady from the north and ring-fenced. I appreciate that the Minister may be of England. I made the point during that debate that bound to say that Treasury rules do not permit returning officers ought to be responsible to the electorate hypothecation, which I understand, but this is only the and ought to act responsibly. The lady’s retort, which beginning of the argument. was made live on the radio, was more or less along these lines: “How dare you, a Member of Parliament, try to Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con): I am interfere with how I, a returning officer, do my job. I am particularly pleased that my hon. Friend has raised this responsible to no one and I won’t listen to you, Madam.” matter, as she has been doing for some years in the Those were not her exact words, but it was clear that her House through the auspices of the 1922 committee and message to me and to the three or four people listening with the Electoral Commission itself. My fear is that was that returning officers were responsible to no one, money is being leeched across and leeched out, as there and she was outraged that I would even suggest that is great pressure for that to happen in times of economic Parliament should take some action in that respect. I stress. I sincerely welcome her plea to the Minister and was equally outraged in my response, but I will not urge him to take the matter on board. Unless the repeat what I said. The fact is that the count in that Government do something about it, in these times of constituency took place, I am glad to say, at 10 o’clock stress we will not see an improvement or have proper on election night. money spent on the administration of elections or on The 10 o’clock issue is irrelevant; how our electoral the training of registration officers and acting returning system is administered is what is important. Over the officers, and therein lies one of the vital points. past few years, various complications have arisen in elections, such as having more than one election on the Mrs Laing: My hon. Friend, as ever, makes an excellent same day, or different kinds of elections under different point. I know that he is rather an expert in those maters, voting systems on the same day, as happens in Scotland. and it is a pleasure to have his wisdom and guidance on There is a danger that such complications will arise them. across the country next May when a referendum and The basic principle is one of confidence. As a modern other elections will take place simultaneously in more democracy, we must have confidence in how our elections than 80% of the UK. Indeed, in some parts of the are administered. I would have raised the matter for country, three types of election will take place on the discussion—I hope that I would have had the opportunity same day. On this occasion I do not object in principle to do so—even if the queues had not formed at polling to simultaneous elections, although I have done so on stations at 10 o’clock on election night. Even before other occasions. The purpose of the debate is to open that happened, most of the questions that I have asked the discussion on how we ensure that elections are this morning were unanswered and are waiting for undertaken in a proper, measured and watertight fashion. action. Having seen what happened at the close of the My first suggestion to the Minister is that the powers polls, I think that all of us who are involved in any way and duties of the Electoral Commission should be in the democratic process ought to hear alarm bells reconsidered and that possibly the way forward is that it ringing. I know that the Minister takes the matter ought to be given a power to direct returning officers, seriously and hope that I am being helpful by giving electoral registration officers and acting returning officers. him one of the first opportunities to examine the matter My second suggestion, which I am happy for the Minister and assure Members that the Government will take to knock straight on the head, although I think it ought action before we have any serious national election to to be discussed, relates to the hypothecation of public ensure that we have a proper accountability structure money. The Treasury is implacably opposed to for those administering our electoral system. hypothecation, and there are good reasons for that, which I have always supported. However, the additional 9.59 am funds for electoral registration officers setting up and administering elections come directly from the Treasury, Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con): It is a rather than local taxpayers. That is absolutely right, pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Caton, because if the money came from local taxpayers, a and to contribute to this timely debate. I congratulate returning officer would have the excuse of saying, “Well, my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) in this local authority we have had a particular problem on securing it. She has been a champion for that cause with housing this year, and we have spent so much and I was particularly interested in her comments and money on that that we simply do not have enough to suggestions on the Electoral Commission, which I will spend on the proper administration of elections.” That touch on. I agree wholeheartedly with almost everything would be the case whatever the current concern in a she said. local authority, whether it is asylum seekers or an influx I shall briefly draw attention to some of the issues in of Gypsies and Travellers. However, such excuses cannot my constituency, Milton Keynes North, which was be made because the money spent on elections comes one of the 11 constituencies that formed the focus of directly from the centre. the Electoral Commission’s initial review, “2010 UK 259WH Elections and Returning Officers20 OCTOBER 2010 Elections and Returning Officers 260WH

[Mark Lancaster] interesting, though, that following the review carried out by the Electoral Commission, the returning officer Parliamentary general election,” published on 20 May. for Milton Keynes North did not receive the same Regrettably, the difficulties encountered in my constituency amount of criticism for allowing polling to continue as on election day were numerous. returning officers who closed polling stations at 10 pm Initially, problems arose early in the day around received for disallowing voting by approximately 1,200 ballot boxes in one of the polling stations in Newport of the electorate around the country. I supported Pagnell, which was being used for voting in local council Mr Moffoot’s actions and, indeed, the Electoral elections in two wards as well as the general election. Commission’s conclusions, but I believe that this case Ballots for the wards were mixed up: ballots for Newport highlights a key area for concern, and a need for clarification Pagnell North were issued to residents in the south and or review of the law. To that end, I ask the Minister vice versa. Eventually, amidst the confusion, the police whether he believes that there should be a review so that were called to attend and some votes were recalled. It is Mr Moffoot would not again be put in a position where worth noting, though, that the people who had already he is required to turn people away from polling stations voted were not contacted by officials to recast their even though they were queuing to vote before the 10 pm local council votes in the right ward. Fortunately, there deadline. was a clear-cut election in both wards, and the number The perception is that turnout at this year’s general of ballots cast which were issued incorrectly was significantly election was higher than in previous elections, but the lower than the majority of the winning parties, so there reality in Milton Keynes is that it was not. Indeed, this was no need to hold a new election. However, that is not year’s turnout of 62.8% was relatively low compared the point. with some previous elections; for example, in 1983 it Another issue that we faced in Milton Keynes, which was 74%, in 1987 it was 73%, in 1992 it was 81%—an I believe was not shared in many of the other affected all-time high for Milton Keynes—in 1997 it was 73%, in areas, was the time it took for the general election 2001 it was 63%, and in 2005 it was 64%. Given that, I ballots to be counted. The Electoral Commission’s fear similar occurrences in future elections if the problem guidelines—of course, they are just guidelines, as my is not addressed. hon. Friend made clear—suggest that the vote count It is clear that some of the issues can be addressed should be started by 2 am on the morning after the without the need for legislation by ensuring careful election takes place. In Milton Keynes, due to the local choice of polling stations, although I understand that election taking place on the same evening, the count there are restrictions on which buildings may be used. began at 4.18 am, with the results announced at 8 am. The hon. Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech) Given the relatively small geographical area covered by made a good intervention. He said that we simply Milton Keynes unitary authority, which is coterminous cannot estimate how many people decided not to vote with the two parliamentary seats, the general view was when they saw long queues at polling stations. On the that that was an unnecessarily long period to wait. I basis of contacts that I had after the election, I would should emphasise that Milton Keynes is not a very big estimate that several hundred people in my constituency place. chose not to queue and vote. Once again, Those instances highlight the fact that there are difficulties I am pleased to say that the result in Milton Keynes in holding more than one election on the same day—a North was decisive, and I do not think that that factor view resonated by the returning officer of my constituency. affected the election result. Given the complications experienced in Milton Keynes, I should be grateful to know whether the Minister Mr Leech: There is certainly anecdotal evidence from believes there is reason for concern and the potential for constituents. One told me that there was a big queue the same problems to occur again next May, when some when they turned up at the polling station at 6 o’clock. polling stations may have to deal with three separate They went away and came back at 7, but there was still a elections on the same day. big queue. When they came back at 9 the queue was even bigger, so they simply gave up. I would now like to focus my attention on an issue faced by several polling stations in Milton Keynes North Mark Lancaster: The hon. Gentleman makes the and in 10 other constituencies around the country. It point that I wanted to make. It is clear that the problems became apparent at 8.30 pm that large queues were faced in my constituency were not isolated incidents. forming outside three polling stations. The acting returning Praise should be given to the Electoral Commission for officer, John Moffoot, did well to follow procedures and its swift publication of the interim report on the problems was proactive in sending senior council officers to monitor faced in a few constituencies, but I believe that we the congested polling stations. He himself went to the should address the confusion and difficulties regarding Wyvern school polling station, which appeared to be the 10 pm cut-off to guarantee that those who wish to the worst affected. With more than 150 people still vote are able to do so. I would suggest to the Minister queuing to vote after the 10 pm deadline, Mr Moffoot, that the actions taken by Mr Moffoot in Milton Keynes with some concern for the safety of polling staff, decided to alleviate the problem were right, even though, in the to go against Electoral Commission guidelines and eyes of the law, they were wrong. allow those in the queue at 10 pm to be issued with ballot papers after the 10 pm cut-off point. 10.6 am It is my understanding that, at present, returning officers must follow strict guidelines on closing polling Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I stations at 10 pm unless issued ballot papers are still congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Epping being marked. That is the only circumstance in which Forest (Mrs Laing) on securing this debate on such an ballots should be submitted after the deadline. It is important issue. I also congratulate her on eloquent and 261WH Elections and Returning Officers20 OCTOBER 2010 Elections and Returning Officers 262WH passionate speeches on the topic on the Floor of the To sum up, existing legislation is sufficient to deal House yesterday and in this Chamber this morning. I with the process of elections but returning officers concur with her when she says that elections are always should be more accountable. Action to prevent mistakes well run in Epping Forest. I know that at first hand, as is far more productive than dealing with their consequences my researcher was an election agent in her borough afterwards. prior to working for me. The public must have confidence in our democratic 10.11 am process. Over the past 12 months, several issues have Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): May been raised regarding the conduct of elections. I would I add my congratulations to the hon. Member for like to deal them in two parts: those that are election Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) on her thoughtful speech offences and those that are not. Election offences including this morning about returning officers and the conduct impersonation, fraud, bribery and misuse of campaign of elections? I am delighted to have the chance to speak expenditure are covered by several Acts of Parliament, this morning, mainly because, disappointingly, Manchester, and the Government are taking steps to help protect Withington was one of those constituencies that was against fraud by improving the accuracy of the electoral the scene of chaos on election night in May. The polling register. However, matters such as polling station failures station at Ladybarn community centre was constantly and incorrect ballot papers are, in themselves, not election on the news for days because someone had filmed the offences. events there on a mobile phone. There were angry The Representation of the People Act 1983 states scenes, with over 200 people questioning why they were that it is the returning officer’s duty not being allowed to vote even though they had been “to do all such acts and things as may be necessary for effectually waiting at the polling station, for up to an hour in some conducting the election in the manner provided by those parliamentary cases, for the right to exercise their vote. elections rules.” In Manchester, Withington there were three main That clearly covers both points. reasons for the chaos on election night. The first was an Returning officers have considerable authority in their increased turnout, which was expected—but it was an work. Although they take instruction from the Electoral increased turnout of those who were more likely to vote Commission, they are under no obligation to follow its later in the day. If they had turned up earlier, they might advice and are subject to little scrutiny. Returning officers have waited longer than they would normally but there are independent statutory office holders and are therefore would not have been the scenes of chaos that there were accountable only to the courts. Action against returning later in the day. That needs to be taken into consideration officers can be taken only by means of a complaint to when we look at ensuring that everyone who is in the the police or by means of an election petition. The 1983 queue at 10 o’clock has the right to cast their vote. Act sets out the penalty for those, including returning Obviously many people are unable to vote during the officers, who are in breach of their official duties in day, and if they have to vote late at night, even if they parliamentary elections: a fine not exceeding level 5 on have to queue, they must have the opportunity to do so the standard scale, currently £5,000. if they are at the polling station before 10 o’clock. Key players in the political process are often reluctant Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): to take action against returning officers for the following The hon. Gentleman raises an important issue. If, as we reasons. First, the returning officer is usually a community learned in yesterday’s debate, there is to be a drive for leader—for example, the chief executive of a council. higher registration and it is successful, as I hope it will Politicians and election agents are often reluctant to be, and more people are registered who previously did take action against such a person, particularly if the not vote because they were not registered and, therefore, outcome is not guaranteed. Secondly, poor performance are less likely to be disposed to vote earlier, the problem by a returning officer does not necessarily constitute a that he is outlining will probably increase in future criminal or an election offence, and it is difficult to elections. There will be not only people queuing to vote prove that someone has been in breach of their official who are normally registered and have gone late because duties. Thirdly, an election petition is expensive. It costs of social problems or work commitments, but an additional £5,000 to issue a writ, which can be issued only against issue of previously non-registered voters turning up to one’s opponent, not the returning officer. Fourthly, if vote late. Therefore, the problem that the hon. Gentleman an election petition is successful and the election is void, has outlined will be much worse next time. the electorate may feel that the candidate responsible for the petition is a bad loser, and the resulting by-election Mr Leech: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his may see massive swings against them. The 1997 Winchester intervention. The reality is that we do not know what by-election is an example of that. will happen to people who have not been previously Returning officers should be more accountable for registered and we do not know whether, having been their performance. Introducing senior returning officers registered, they will be likely to vote, and if so, at what with enforcement powers, responsible for a geographical time. The issue needs to be considered. We must be area, is a possible solution. It is important to remember ready for potential additional chaos late at night. that many issues have a simple solution. For example, The second reason why we had chaos in Manchester, on polling station failures, a risk assessment would Withington was that some polling stations were expected foresee many problems, and procedures should be in to deal with too many people turning up to vote—way place to deal with high volumes of electors and shortages above the limit recommended by the Electoral Commission. of ballot papers. On incorrect ballot papers, showing a That issue is being addressed in Manchester and, I am copy of the ballot paper to candidates or election pleased to say, the council is acting on extending the agents before issue would reduce mistakes. number of polling stations to improve the situation. 263WH Elections and Returning Officers20 OCTOBER 2010 Elections and Returning Officers 264WH

[Mr Leech] central to the quality and credibility of our democratic system. It is good to see that the matter is treated The third reason why there was a problem in Manchester, seriously by so many people. Withington was the dual election—one being a general I have been a football player and then a supporter election. In some parts of the country, people are used since I was about three, so I have a long history of being to general elections on the same day as local elections, involved in football. I know well the moans about the but that has not happened in Manchester for a very decline in referees, and by golly they have declined over long time. Considerable confusion and delay resulted. the years, but nowhere near as much as the professionalism Some people were told, “Oh, actually, you’ve got two of our electoral registration officers and acting returning votes. You can vote in the local and general elections,” officers. The quality of the people running our elections, but a significant number of people were entitled to vote through no fault of their own, has declined enormously in the local elections but not the general election, and over a long time. I have been involved in 14 general that had to be explained to them because there was elections and many local government elections, European confusion. That number of people was probably elections and referendums. My first election was in significantly bigger in Manchester and other city areas. 1959, so I have a little knowledge about them. I have From previous exchanges with the Minister, I know also been an election agent, and I have seen the decline. that I have not won the argument about the general I was so concerned about the organisation of my election date being set in stone and separate from any election in Northampton South that I wrote to the other elections. I still firmly believe that the general acting returning officer, who is also the chief executive election should not be held on a day when other elections of the local borough council, making a number of or referendums are held, but the Minister does not points. I want to highlight two and I shall do so briefly accept that point. I am on to a loser there. because I know that time is pressing. There is no doubt I wanted to speak in the debate today, not necessarily that people are included on the register when they about the chaos on election night, but mainly about should not be. They are included because of the lax payments awarded to chief executives who act as returning processes pursued by electoral registration professionals, officers at general elections. I confess that I was stunned and some of them voted. I know that that is a fact to find out that running the general election as a returning because we knocked on more than 40% of the doors in officer was not in the job description of the chief my constituency during the general election campaign. executives of big councils. I do not want to target We had to because I was in the unusual position of Sir Howard Bernstein, the chief executive of Manchester fighting a Labour seat for the second time running, and city council but, my constituency being within the we put in a lot of effort. The number of people we came boundaries of Manchester city council, he is the example across who, when we checked them out, were not qualified I have. Sir Howard is an excellent chief executive and in any way to be on the electoral register was deeply has done a great job for Manchester, but chief executives worrying. When we checked our tellers’ returns, we are well paid for the jobs that they do—the chief executive found that sizeable numbers of those people had voted. of Manchester city council earns significantly more It is pointless to have an electoral register unless it is than the Prime Minister—and yet a £20,000 bonus was properly constructed and we abide by and take notice payable to him for running the general election. of it. Given that at least 200 or 300 people missed out on voting in Manchester, Withington, I question whether Iain Stewart: I have had examples in my constituency any bonus was deserved. To his credit, Sir Howard of people who have applied to reside permanently in the returned 20% of his bonus, due to there being five United Kingdom but are not yet full citizens using their constituencies in Manchester and the Manchester, presence on the electoral register as evidence that they Withington election not running smoothly—he returned are entitled to be here. I totally accept my hon. Friend’s the whole 20% for that constituency. However, I question point that the electoral register’s integrity is far from whether any sort of bonus was justified if a single perfect. person in Manchester was unable to vote on general election day through no fault of their own, and there Mr Binley: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s important were clearly a significant number of people in that intervention, which supports my point. position. The chief executive in Sheffield forwent his entire bonus due to the chaos there. Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): Is not part of the Finally, there ought to be an assumption that the problem, as I found during the election, that if someone chief executive of a large council is the returning officer, wishes to challenge a household’s electoral registration and that should be part of their job description. There there are only 21 days in which the returning officer can should never be additional payments simply for running do so? In the heat of the work in the run-up to an an election and ensuring that we have democracy in our election, that is effectively impossible. constituencies and our local authorities. Mr Binley: My hon. Friend makes an important point. The Minister should consider, and I hope that he 10.20 am noted it. Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con): It is a With postal voting we have created a frightening pleasure to serve under your guidance, Mr Caton. I potential for corruption in our election system. If it thank my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest were not so important, the inability to ensure good and (Mrs Laing) for obtaining this important debate. The proper elections through the postal vote would be laughable. standard and quality of our electoral system in terms of There was a time when the whole construct of postal elections and compilation of the electoral register are voting was carefully created and checked, and its efficacy 265WH Elections and Returning Officers20 OCTOBER 2010 Elections and Returning Officers 266WH was understood and known to be absolutely within the about the Government, one of which is why she is not a prescribed limits. That time has gone because of the Minister. She is extremely efficient, capable and competent, machinations of the previous Government, who did not and she always makes her argument very well. Yesterday understand what they were doing in that respect. We she got a little cross with me. I do not take any offence must all recognise the faults because the issue is more at that, although a lot of people do. important than party politics. It is about the very basis The basic message from the debate, which I hope of our electoral and democratic system—[Interruption.] returning officers will understand, is that many of us I am happy to give way if the hon. Member for Rhondda who are involved in politics as elected politicians worry (Chris Bryant) wishes to intervene. that we are taking democracy somewhat for granted. Those two matters are vital, and there are many We all worry about the fact that turnout has fallen, as others. I want to describe from my experience the reasons the hon. Member for Milton Keynes North (Mark for the decline. The business of electoral registration Lancaster) mentioned. Turnout rose slightly at the last officers used to be a profession. People in local government general election, but it is still lower than it was in the offices did the job for years and years, and they had 1980s and earlier. Now is not the time to rehearse those assistants who followed them and who had learned to arguments, but in Wales turnout was consistently above do the job properly. We had the money to check whether 75% or 80%. Wales often had the highest levels of a registration was valid by visiting the home of people turnout, but lately they have been some of the lowest. seeking registration. The whole process was efficient, That is a worry to us all. but that efficiency no longer exists because electoral It is all too easy for local authorities, which often registration has been downgraded dramatically in most make the decisions about funding for the democratic council office structures, and the attitude seems to be, process, to take democracy for granted. A local authority “Who will do the register this year, Fred?” It seems to be might have to choose between keeping a swimming pool a last resort, and that is simply not good enough. open, which will cost £100,000 a year, or doing a full What can we do? My hon. Friend the Member for canvass of every house to ensure that everybody who is Epping Forest said that the Electoral Commission must entitled to vote is on the register, and that everybody be a more robust policing body. First, we must ring-fence who is not entitled to vote is not on it. Elected politicians the money that we allocate from national Government at a local level sometimes choose to protect the swimming for the conduct of elections and registration. Money is pool rather than the democratic process. being leached, and there is every reason why local I suspect that over the past few years, the whole authorities should so do. They are in trouble with anti-politics movement—to give it a name—has added money, but we must ensure that our money is used for to that problem. Too many people felt that all politicians the reasons for which it was designated. That means of whatever political party were in it just for themselves, ring-fencing, and the Electoral Commission must be and that there was no point in voting because, in terms responsible for monitoring that money and ensuring used by many comedians, “If voting made any difference, that it is properly used for the purposes for which it was they’d abolish it.” The issue of Members’ expenses also allocated. Secondly, we must spend money on training fed into that, and that cynicism has weighed heavily on electoral registration staff and returning officers because the political system over the past few years. That has fed the quality of their work has fallen, largely because the into the presumption that money spent on the electoral learning thread that goes from one officer to another no register or on electoral processes was not money well longer exists. spent. That is a mistake. We must bring the law to bear much more. We must I am sure that we can all remember watching the first make criminal actions a higher priority in society. When time that people voted in South Africa. There were someone cheats the electoral system, they cheat my vote queues not only down the street but round the block for and me. If we truly believe in a democratic process, we days. People were camping out and waiting to vote. must ensure that the systems to undertake that democratic Watching people vote in countries such as Iraq or process are as viable and credible as possible, and they Afghanistan, where they might have been running terrible are not at the moment. risks to do so, fills a lot of us with admiration. In the Balkans, boycotts of elections have sometimes been We have a good voting system, and I have made that organised by one ethnic grouping, and it has been great clear in the House. It does not need to be tampered with to see turnouts that were significantly higher than many for any reason, least of all for those that apply at the had anticipated. That is why the scenes that we saw in moment. The voting system is not broken, but the May were sad. It is fortunate—and only fortunate—that conduct of elections and electoral registration is a total there was no constituency in which the number of mess, and if the Government had any sense they would people who we know were not able to vote was higher recognise that democracy is in danger through those than the majority of the candidate who won. Therefore, processes and not through the process of our electoral we can be confident that that issue may not have affected system. the result. The hon. Member for Manchester, Withington 10.29 am (Mr Leech) makes an extremely good point: we have no way of knowing how many people went to the polling Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): It is a delight to serve station, saw a long queue and thought that they would under your chairmanship, Mr Caton, and yet again to come back later. Perhaps they came back later but still gather together this group of hon. Members who take saw a queue and gave up. an interest in electoral matters. No doubt we shall gather again this afternoon for the next round of discussions. Mr Leech: There is also the fact that there were local I congratulate the hon. Member for Epping Forest elections on the same day. I guess that in some (Mrs Laing). There are many things I do not understand constituencies, the result of the local election in a particular 267WH Elections and Returning Officers20 OCTOBER 2010 Elections and Returning Officers 268WH

[Mr Leech] there is a general election. I think that it should be part of the standard job description and that no additional area was very close. It may be that some people were fees should be payable. It should be run of the mill and elected to local councils who would not have been part of doing the job. Frankly, if someone does not do elected if everyone had had the chance to vote. the job well, they should not remain in it. It should not be a question of getting extra payments. Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman makes his point, and I hope that the Minister will be able to answer him Mrs Laing: It is worth going over that point again. on it. I will speak about combined polls a little later. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: not only is it not part of the job description of a local authority The Opposition tried to provide an answer to the employee, but there is also a lack of accountability. The issue of 10 o’clock voting with an amendment that was fee for doing the job comes from central funds, but discussed last Monday. Unfortunately, not enough hon. there is no line of accountability to that. As we have Members felt able to vote for it. The Minister said that seen, some people were paid perhaps £15,000 for the problem with our amendment was that it introduced administering matters this year. They got it wrong and the concept of a queue into British legislation, and that were not required to pay a penny back. that might be difficult to define. If the British Parliament cannot define a queue, I do not know which Parliament Chris Bryant: The hon. Lady makes her point extremely in the world would be able to do so. Many other places well. I hope that the Minister will think about whether in the world have a system in which, for example, a we need to look at the structure of how returning person’s finger is dabbed with indelible ink the moment officers—in most cases, broadly speaking, an honorific that they present themselves, and that is the moment at title—and those beneath them are appointed. which they are entitled to receive a vote. I am sure that In my constituency in 2001, the returning officer many other ways could be devised. I hope that the appointed himself because he wanted to announce the Minister will look specifically at a way of ensuring election result. Unfortunately, he could not speak Welsh. consistency across the country. He decided that he had to make the announcement in The hon. Member for Milton Keynes North made Welsh first, despite the fact that remarkably few people the point tellingly: in some constituencies, the returning in the Rhondda speak Welsh, and very few people in the officer decided to be generous and to stretch the regulations hall spoke it. He certainly did not speak Welsh, so what in one direction, but in other constituencies they decided he announced was virtually incomprehensible. The BBC to be extremely strict about how they operated the immediately switched off and went somewhere else. We system. That inconsistency around the country does not would be better off with the electoral registration officer, inspire confidence in voters. In subsequent elections, who is the person who knows the law best, being the people might think that if it is 9.30 pm or 9.45 pm there returning officer. I am sorry if that means that we will is no point going to vote because there are always be sacking all the high sheriffs and lord lieutenants of queues at the polling stations. the land. I mean no disservice to them but it is a I do not want to be nasty to the Minister this morning— professional job that must be done on a professional basis. The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Another point raised was about when the count Harper): Keep it for this afternoon. should take place. I think that people like the drama of election night. It is fascinating that people are watching Chris Bryant: I cannot keep it for this afternoon the BBC’s 1970 and 1974 election programmes, which because I do not think that the Minister will be responding are now being re-shown. It is quite exciting thinking “I to the debate then. However, I thought that he was a can’t remember who won Plymouth, Devonport” or little complacent about that element last Monday afternoon. wherever. I had an Australian friend who was my lodger. He said that the issue was not an enormous problem This was a few years ago. He was fascinated by Australian and that there was not an enormous number of instances politics and refused to watch any news for a week until in which it had happened. The figure of 1,200 was his mother had sent him the five DVDs with the election suggested, but I suspect that many more people were television programme from Australia. It took even longer affected. I suspect that in Hackney North and Stoke than it might have because the count takes a long time Newington alone there were more than 1,500 people in Australia. who ended up not being able to vote because of the My point is that the drama of election night is very situation. I hope that the Minister will return to the important and, as we saw in our election, all the more issue with some means of providing consistency around important because sometimes it can determine the feeling, the country. when there is to be a hung Parliament, about how The inconsistency around the country applies not Governments may or may not be formed. That is why only to what happens at 10 o’clock but to a whole series there should be consistency across the land. If there are of different issues. In part, that is precisely because of combined elections, the general election votes should be the reason adduced by the hon. Member for Epping counted first, and the count should not start at 4.19 in Forest: although the responsibilities and powers are laid the morning and finish at 8 o’clock in the morning. down in statute, a wide amount of freedom is given to That explains why the hon. Member for Milton Keynes the returning officers and there is little accountability. I North looked just a little weary by the time his election agree with the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington result came out. We should be moving to greater consistency that it is ludicrous that such a job is thought of as in that regard. additional to the job of electoral registration officer, That leaves us with the problem in relation to combining and that somehow people have to be additionally polls. If we are to go to a fixed-term Parliament when recompensed in order to perform their function when we already have fixed-term council elections and fixed-term 269WH Elections and Returning Officers20 OCTOBER 2010 Elections and Returning Officers 270WH

Assembly elections in Wales and Northern Ireland and Mr Binley: There is a distinction between the returning for the Parliament in Scotland, we either decide that officer and the acting returning officer, which we must they will all coincide always, so that that is a fixed part not lose sight of. The returning officer is normally a of the programme as it is in the United States of volunteer, not a local government professional, and is America, where there are elections every two years, or guided immensely and totally by the acting returning we decide that we will not combine polls at all, because officer, who is normally the chief executive and does the that is better. I think that it is a bit odd that we have work. We need to make that distinction. elections on the first Thursday in May, because April is a pretty rubbish month to go campaigning. Chaucer got Mr Harper: I thank my hon. Friend for making that it right when he talked about April with its showers. point. My hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest Perhaps we should think about another month. I say paid tribute to the way in which the acting returning that as someone who was first elected in June rather officer conducted the election in her constituency. It than May. would be remiss of me not to mention that I was also fortunate that the acting returning officer in my constituency Obviously, it is more important that we hear from the ensured that the polls ran very smoothly. Indeed, unlike Minister than that we hear further expatiations from at the last general election in 2005, when I had to wait me. I just hope that the issues of consistency around the until about 6 am for the result—albeit perhaps not as country can be addressed, as well as the finance and the long as my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes accountability of returning officers. North (Mark Lancaster)—this time, the acting returning officer and her team made a declaration almost three hours earlier and I was the first Member of Parliament 10.42 am in Gloucestershire to be elected. I have told them that I The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark shall expect that level of service from now on. Harper): It is a great pleasure to speak under your What I am describing can be done. It is worth saying chairmanship, Mr Caton. I add my congratulations to that, across the country, with the exceptions that we my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) have discussed, most of the general election counts and on securing the debate. As she correctly said, this is an the process were very well conducted. The standard is area in which she has taken great interest over a considerable very high. However, that is not to take away from the period, and she has spoken very well on it for our party. fact that there were difficulties. She slightly underplayed her role in her mini-triumph My hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest and earlier this year when she persuaded the then Lord other hon. Members drew attention to the problems Chancellor to adopt her amendment, which brought that occurred on election day. I am referring to the considerable consistency—to pick up the point made by queues at 10 o’clock. The Electoral Commission, in its the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant)—about report, made the point that that was largely to do with counting. Those of us who were up for election and poor planning and poor contingency arrangements on whose result was perhaps not as assured as that of the the day. It is worth putting it in context. I am not being hon. Gentleman were grateful that the counts took complacent or underplaying it, but there are 40,000 place promptly and we had early results so that we knew polling stations in the United Kingdom and there were our fate. My hon. Friend played a considerable part in issues at 27 of them. The reason why the Government that and has taken a great deal of interest in the issue, hesitate before we rush off and legislate is that we want and we thank her for the opportunity to discuss these to see whether legislating would solve the problem and matters today. not create further problems. We want to see whether It is worth saying, so that it is clear, that the administration that is the right way to go. Without wishing to understate of elections takes place at local level, as my hon. Friend the problem, I just think that before we legislate, it is set out. The acting returning officer is often, although worth thinking about whether that is the right solution. not always, the local authority chief executive or another I will not go into the issue at length. As the hon. senior officer. They are responsible for all aspects of Member for Rhondda said, the House had the opportunity the election, including publication of the notice of the earlier this week, because of the amendment that he election and dealing with the nominations of candidates, and his hon. Friends proposed, to debate the matter. ballot papers, polling stations, the counting, the The House did debate it and decided not to make the arrangements for the count and the declaration of the change to the law at this time, but we are considering result. Part of the tension when we are talking about the Electoral Commission’s report and looking at the accountability is about making it impossible for the people right way of solving the problem. running elections also to have a stake in the outcome. It is worth saying, though, that the law is clear. It has The difficulty is about who is accountable. not changed; it has been the law for a considerable time. That highlights one of the issues with the solution It is clear that a ballot paper should not be issued after that my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, 10 pm, so there is no reason why acting returning Withington (Mr Leech) highlighted. If the task was officers should be confused about that, and I know that made part of the local authority chief executive’s day the Electoral Commission will ensure that that guidance job, for which he is accountable to elected members of a is clearly established before the next set of elections. local authority, there would be a risk in some places of Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Has the political pressure and influence being exerted on the number of polling stations, particularly in urban areas, returning officer. That post is separate from the role of reduced and have they become larger? chief executive is so that political pressure is not put on that person. We do not want to lose that if we make any Mr Harper: My hon. Friend puts his finger on a point changes. My hon. Friend made a good point, but I am that my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, not sure that that is the right solution. Withington raised. In Manchester, there were polling 271WH Elections and Returning Officers20 OCTOBER 2010 Elections and Returning Officers 272WH

[Mr Harper] One of the things that Members have highlighted is the issue of what happens if things go wrong: what is stations that covered too great a geographical area, or the accountability? In Manchester, the council’s chief far too many electors were expected to vote in them. It executive, who is the acting returning officer, has effectively is good to hear that Manchester city council has taken taken the view that because there were problems in one steps to address that. It is one of the issues set out in the of the constituencies—Manchester, Withington—he guidance from the Electoral Commission. It lays out would not take his fee for that. Some other returning broadly how many electors should be going to a particular officers have also taken that view. Members have polling station, precisely so that if there is a high suggested that someone should have the ability to make turnout, that number of electors can be processed smoothly. such a judgment, and to not pay the fee. We will be It is good to hear that in places where we know that experimenting with that idea, to some extent, in the there were issues, they are being dealt with. I do not provisions in the Parliamentary Voting System and know overall across the country whether there has been Constituencies Bill. a reduction in the number of polling stations. Regarding the referendum, the chief counting officer— I suspect that one problem was that given that turnout the chairman of the Electoral Commission—is responsible was lower at the last few general elections and at other for its conduct, and appoints regional counting officers elections, as the hon. Member for Rhondda highlighted, and counting officers. Those officers will be the same some acting returning officers made assumptions that people as the returning officers, but we will—if Parliament turnout would continue at a low level and were caught agrees—give the chief counting officer the ability to unawares when, perhaps because people were more withhold the fee for their duties in conducting the engaged in the election, they took part in it in greater referendum, if performance is not adequate. We will numbers. consider whether that has the desired effect, and will review the measure after the referendum to see whether Chris Bryant: I am sure that the Minister is absolutely we might want to consider it more widely. right, and I think that another assumption the officers made was that many more people would vote by post. Mrs Laing: I thank the Minister for his kind remarks That has undoubtedly happened: in my constituency we earlier. I have for the first time just seen a good point—a have lost, I think, eight polling stations since I was first plus point—to having the referendum. The Minister elected in 2001, for all sorts of reasons that are pretty will appreciate that that measure could be a sort of pilot much insurmountable. Virtually everyone in those old scheme for a system of accountability for returning polling districts now votes by post, notwithstanding the officers, and that would be very welcome. points made earlier by the hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart). Mr Harper: I am very pleased that views, certainly on the Government Benches, are hardening in support of our Bill. I look forward to further progress today. Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. I suspect that in some areas people have made assumptions It is worth noting that, although my hon. Friend the about postal voting. Because of the problems that we Member for Epping Forest suggested that the Electoral have had with such voting at previous elections, quite a Commission should have more powers to direct returning lot of my constituents who had decided to vote by post officers in their conduct of elections—not referendums—the have now gone back to voting in person, partly because Electoral Commission itself has called for greater they like doing that but also because they feel that it is accountability, but not for greater powers of direction, more secure. Acting returning officers need to take that with the exception of the referendum, the outcome of into account. which they are responsible for. We will think further about that, but we will first see how the step of making the Electoral Commission responsible for the fee for Mr Binley: My hon. Friend has touched on a very the referendum works—the pros and cons—and whether important point. People did not receive their postal it might be something to bring in more widely for votes until after the time allowed for the receipt of returning officers. The difficulty would be in deciding to them. The returning officers have to stick to the rules, whom they would be accountable, and who would and that is why monitoring is necessary. make that decision. We will, however, look at that further, and it might be something to debate after the Mr Harper: My hon. Friend makes a good point, and referendum. it comes back to accountability—an issue that has been In the six minutes that remain, let me just deal with mentioned by a number of Members. I would say a some of the other issues that my hon. Friend the couple of things about that, and about the payments. Member for Epping Forest, and other Members, raised. The returning officer’s job is separate from and in One issue that she raised, which was supported by my addition to their normal duties, which ensures that in hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South carrying out those duties they are not accountable to (Mr Binley), was the hypothecation or ring-fencing of politicians, who might have an interest in the election. funding. My hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest Returning officers are not paid for just the one night; a made two points. For national parliamentary elections, lot of planning and preparation goes into ensuring that the funding, as she correctly said, is ring-fenced. It elections run smoothly. Indeed, some returning officers comes directly from the Consolidated Fund and the appoint deputies to help them, and with whom they Government say to returning officers that for properly share the fees. The Government have issued guidance in incurred expenditure to do with the election the money relation to national elections, which recommends that is payable from the centre. That is clear, and my hon. that happens. Friend made it clear. 273WH Elections and Returning Officers20 OCTOBER 2010 Elections and Returning Officers 274WH

The other point is about the money for electoral their local authorities to participate. I hope that that registration. At the moment, that money is not ring-fenced; reassures my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham it is part of the revenue support grant. I have heard a and Rainham (Rehman Chishti), who raised some of number of Members state that the money in that revenue those issues. support fund is not used for electoral registration, but I have dealt with some of the issues raised by my hon. there is no evidence of that. If people were to bring Friend the Member for Manchester, Withington. It is forward evidence, we would look at the issue very good to hear that the issue of the number of polling seriously. The hon. Member for Rhondda mentioned stations has been dealt with. He raised some very good those points as well. Given that the electoral registration points about the combination of elections, and about a officer is a senior member of the local authority officer differential franchise between the local, European and team, the acting returning officer responsible for delivering parliamentary franchises. We are alive to that issue, the elections is often the chief executive, and the other with the combined election and referendum that we decision makers in local authorities are councillors who hope to see next year, and one reason why we have been have to get elected, I do not understand why we should working very closely with the Electoral Commission think it likely that that set of individuals would de-prioritise and with those responsible for delivering elections is to spending on elections, since that is something in which ensure that there is clear guidance. In their planning for we as politicians have a great interest. So, I am not the referendum and the elections, the Electoral Commission convinced intellectually that there should be a problem, and acting returning officers will take exactly that into and there is very little, if any, evidence that that is account, to ensure that in parts of the country where happening—if there is, the Government will look at it. they are not used to such a combination there is clear It is not just a Treasury rule; it is the general view of this guidance and clear planning, to avoid those sorts of Government that we should allow local authorities to problems. make judgments about how much money needs to be spent in different areas, although they do have legal Finally, the issue of combination, which the hon. duties to ensure that elections are well conducted and Member for Rhondda raised, is interesting, and we in that the registration system works well. the House need to think about that more widely. There is a view that no elections should be combined, but given that the Government are looking at more fixed As we roll out individual voter registration, I hope terms, including a fixed term for this Parliament, and that we can tackle both sides of the coin. We can deal are also considering having more elections—for police with the problem of people who are on the register but commissioners for example—it would be difficult to should not be—a number of Members mentioned that have all those elections on separate days. It is worth this morning—and, equally importantly, we can look at thinking about the argument, “If you’re going to combine people who are eligible to vote but are not on the them you should go for it big time and make sure it’s register. The resources issue is important, and I have well done,” and considering whether we effectively have written to every local authority chief executive about a big democracy day in the same way as they do in the our data-matching pilots. I encourage Members to US, where everything is on the same day. It would be encourage their local authorities to participate. We hope helpful if Members thought about that, and I am sure to enable local authorities to use other public data that we will get the opportunity to debate it in due sources to identify people who are eligible to vote but course. not on the register, or the other way around, so that This has been a good debate. We have touched on a they can target them and use limited resources more number of issues that are very important to Members, effectively, to ensure that the register is both accurate and I once again thank my hon. Friend the Member for and complete. The funding for the pilots will be met Epping Forest for enabling us to have the debate. I look from central Government. I encourage Members, forward to debating with, or listening to, her this afternoon, particularly if they feel that there are problems in their when we continue consideration of the Parliamentary areas, either with accuracy or completeness, to encourage Voting System and Constituencies Bill. 275WH 20 OCTOBER 2010 Independent Financial Advisers 276WH

Independent Financial Advisers Harriett Baldwin: I thank my hon. Friend for that interesting intervention. I shall come to precisely that 10.59 am point in a moment. Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): It is The market for financial advice suffers from a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, comparatively low consumer trust. Consumers find it Mr Caton. I hope the Minister will forgive me for difficult to engage with the financial services industry— holding this debate on a day when he probably has quite banks are not exactly the most popular institutions in a few other things on. As he knows, however, such the country at the moment. Economists would describe debates are a bit of a lottery, and I was not expecting buying financial products as a transaction in which mine to come up today. consumers have asymmetric information; in plain English, According to the Library, this is the first time that the the buyer knows a lot less about the product than the regulation of independent financial advisers has been seller. There is therefore a need for proper independent debated in a Chamber of the House, and we have to ask advice. why. Colleagues on the Treasury Committee discussed Along with banks, IFAs have been guilty of selling the topic yesterday, and I have put my toe in the water certain products because they give a better commission. by asking for a 30-minute debate today. Given the Like banks, IFAs have been found to have mis-sold interest that I have encountered in the issue—I have had private pensions to public sector workers. Like banks, a binder full of correspondence since the debate was they have mis-sold high-income precipice bonds. Often, announced last Wednesday—I anticipate that this is not they have sold products that simply performed badly or the last that we will hear of it. carried high charges. There is no doubt that the industry’s reputation could be improved. Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): The interest that I have encountered is certainly unprecedented, and I Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) too have a very large binder. Will my hon. Friend work (Con): My hon. Friend mentioned the Treasury Committee, with me to secure a Back-Bench business debate in and it may be of interest to note that I was in the which we might have an opportunity to debate the issue Committee yesterday when it talked about this issue. for up to three hours on the Floor of the House? Interestingly, the response from the Association of Harriett Baldwin: Yes. I thank my hon. Friend for Independent Financial Advisers and the Association of that suggestion and I would be delighted to support it. Private Client Investment Managers and Stockbrokers IFAsare regulated by the soon-to-be-abolished Financial was that the retail distribution review, having started Services Authority, the independent statutory regulator with high ambitions and high principles, not only ran set up by the previous Government. Banking supervision four times over cost, but conducted a somewhat ineffective is to return to the Bank of England, while many other consultation. I put the question whether, in that aspect regulatory functions will go to a new consumer protection at least, it had become a bit of a fiasco, and the body. Thus, this seems an opportune time for the House witnesses concurred, very much to my surprise. My to debate some of the implications of those policies and hon. Friend might want to bear that in mind in future some of the functions involved. discussions. Fewer people are benefiting from defined-benefit pension schemes. More individuals are being asked to contact Harriett Baldwin: I thank my hon. Friend and neighbour. an IFA to obtain advice. Many will receive lump sums He is a distinguished practitioner and member of the from an inheritance or perhaps a redundancy payout, Treasury Committee. I am very interested to hear about and they will need professional advice to make the most the evidence yesterday. of them. With auto-enrolment beginning in a few years’ We should not underestimate the costs of mis-sales to time, people will also have to decide whether they need consumers. The FSA’s cost-benefit analysis assesses the to opt out. Many younger people will leave university cost to consumers of the pensions mis-selling scandal at with student loans. Many older people will need to buy £45 million per annum. In reaction to such circumstances, annuities or to make arrangements to pay for long-term the FSA has spent the past several years consulting on care. All those transactions require some financial advice. how to address the issues involved. I share its goal of improving consumers’ perception of the industry and Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): I previously worked as a access to high-quality investment advice. solicitor and employed an independent financial adviser. Does the hon. Lady agree that it is better to receive advice from an independent financial adviser than a Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): Does my hon. Friend tied agent? agree that the new regulations will raise the bar in terms of the standard of advisers, which means that there will Harriett Baldwin: There are indeed advantages, and I be fewer financial advisers in future and that individuals’ thank the hon. Gentleman for his helpful intervention. ability to seek advice will be restricted, not enhanced? He obviously has a lot of experience of dealing with the sector. Harriett Baldwin: My hon. Friend raises an important It is estimated that there are about 45,000 IFAs in the point, and I will come to that. country, many of whom are sole traders. The FSA has come up with proposals to address the Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Should those tens of issue. They are close to final, and the board is likely to thousands of small traders not be encouraged to use take a decision in December. Under the current plans, their entrepreneurialism to help people save, rather the proposals will be implemented by the end of 2012. than being squashed by the dead hand of unthinking As they stand, the proposals are known as the retail regulation? distribution review. As colleagues have suggested, they 277WH Independent Financial Advisers20 OCTOBER 2010 Independent Financial Advisers 278WH raise real questions about the role of regulation and the Harriett Baldwin: I agree, because according to Oxera’s laws of unintended, and indeed intended, consequences survey for the FSA, 25% of firms are very or quite likely in terms of regulation. to leave the market. That will reduce access to advice for those living in rural constituencies such as mine. It will Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): reduce access to advice for those with smaller amounts Is it not also true that not only will there be a reduction of money; the charges for explicit advice will be for in the number of IFAs, but many of those who have those with higher sums of money. been in the industry for a long time, who are very experienced and who understand the market and customers Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): Does my hon. very well, will unfortunately inadvertently fall foul of Friend agree that there will be a particular effect on the regulations? rural areas? I live in a rural area, where nearly all the financial advisers are small, one-person businesses. The Harriett Baldwin: My hon. Friend, who is also a imposition in relation to costs and time is particularly member of the Treasury Committee, makes an extremely onerous for them. Many will simply close and the important point, which I will mention in a moment. service in rural areas will disappear. The impact of the proposals has been brought to my attention by a range of independent financial advisers, Harriett Baldwin: Yes, I agree. In London it does not who are also constituents. Acting independently of one really matter if one person goes out of business—there another, they all came to see me in my advice surgeries. will be lots more financial advice available; but in rural Under the RDR proposals, each IFA should pass a set constituencies such as mine and that of my hon. Friend of exams and then spend at least 35 hours per annum there will be a significant impact on access. on continuous professional development. Hon. Members The IFAs in West Worcestershire who have come to should note that the requirement is 35 hours and that my constituency advice surgeries have also raised concerns 34 hours would not be acceptable. IFAs also need to about the exam. Most of the advisers I have seen have obtain a statement of professional standing from an been—I know we should not mention age—in their late accredited body. Someone who, today, is a qualified and 50s or 60s. Speaking for myself—and obviously I am approved IFA but who does not meet those requirements still very young—I am not as good at taking exams now by 31 December 2012, will no longer be able to practise as I was when I left university. That does not mean that his or her profession, despite many years’ experience. I have not accumulated something else over the years. I hope that I have a little more wisdom and experience Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Is not the than I had then. problem with the RDR that many of our constituents will be left without appropriate financial advice because Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): I have of the introduction of the new rules? Often it is the spoken to many local IFAs in my constituency and most experienced IFAs, with the most years of experience, elsewhere, who provide localised, personal services to who will be forced out of the profession. individuals who may not be of great net wealth, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer) Harriett Baldwin: My hon. Friend makes a good said. Does my hon. Friend agree that asking them point, which I am about to make myself, so I thank him questions about international arbitrage and the derivatives for his helpful intervention. market is hardly relevant to the practice they have Advisers will have to charge explicitly for their services carried on for many years? and will not be able to accept commissions. Oxera, the market research firm employed by the FSA to assess the Harriett Baldwin: Indeed, that is a helpful intervention. costs and benefits of the changes, expects the net present I received a letter from someone in the north of England value of the compliance costs to the industry to reach who was concerned about having to learn a lot about between £1.4 billion and £1.7 billion. Worryingly, the non-domiciled investors, which they did not think was estimate in 2008 was £600 million. That cost will be very relevant in Sheffield. passed directly to consumers. The latest estimate represents In financial markets wisdom and experience are valued. an astonishing 180% increase. Someone who has lived through a boom and bust cycle Oxera expects the increase in compliance costs to be in the past is much less likely to believe that the latest passed on to consumers, so they will pay for the changes. investment fad will defy the laws of investment gravity. Charges will be higher, so sales of financial products Someone who has seen a few economic cycles is much will decline. The majority of adviser firms expect a more likely to understand the ravages of inflation on reduction in turnover. Consumers with smaller amounts savings. Someone who has been to a range of conferences to invest are much less likely to seek advice if they have over the years is more likely to know when something is to pay for it explicitly. Smaller firms of IFAs are the really too good to be true. No exam can test that. Yet it most likely to exit the market. is those experienced IFAs, who are often sole practitioners, who will find it hardest to take the time required to pass Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con): We all want greater the specified exams. transparency in IFAs’ charges, but I am concerned about the direction in which the RDR is going, because George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con): Is not the of precisely that point. If we go down that route we situation also exacerbated by accounting rules? Being shall restrict financial advice to the very wealthy, and do compelled to write off goodwill in one year, it is very nothing to reverse the appalling savings ratio that we difficult for groups of IFAs to acquire the business of have inherited. smaller IFAs, which compounds the problem. 279WH Independent Financial Advisers20 OCTOBER 2010 Independent Financial Advisers 280WH

Harriett Baldwin: My hon. Friend raises an interesting I would also like to ask the Minister how changing point that I had not even thought of. from commissions, which are currently exempt from The experienced IFAs, who are often sole practitioners, VAT, to advice, which will attract VAT, will not add a will find it hardest to pass the exams. However, someone further cost for consumers. who has just graduated from university with a bachelor’s degree in financial markets—and I am not knocking Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): On the subject that—will be immediately accredited by certain institutions. of commissions, the IFAs in High Peak who have In the full file that I have received in the past few days spoken to me are concerned that removing the option of are stories from experienced IFAs with unblemished commission and replacing it with up-front charges will regulatory track records, years of experience, happy prevent people from getting the independent financial clients and no complaints. Yet as a result of the rules, if advice they need. Conversely it will prevent IFAs from they do not pass the exams they will not be able to ply taking the exams, because of the downturn in work. their trade on 1 January 2013. That means many people will not get the independent financial advice they will need. Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con): I thank my hon. Friend for securing the debate. I have had many letters Harriett Baldwin: Yes, that is a question to be considered from concerned constituents about it. Independent financial as well. advisers feel that they will be put at a substantial Does the Minister really believe that consumers should commercial disadvantage by the new rules. not be allowed to choose whether they pay explicitly for advice or whether they pay through commission? Does Harriett Baldwin: There is an important point to be he believe that it is consistent with UK legislation made about how some of the larger organisations, and retrospectively to change the qualification regime for a indeed some banks and bancassurers, will most readily whole class of practitioners? Finally, does he agree with be able to have their staff trained for the exams. However, one commentator, who described the RDR as that raises the question whether the exams will really “a sledgehammer to miss a nut”? test the skills needed by a good financial adviser. In the investment world, experience is valued and the FSA is 11.18 am imposing on the market a one-size-fits-all, prescriptive approach to education, at great cost to consumers, in The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark return for a modest benefit. Hoban): I think that that commentator was my right I have written to the chief executive of the FSA and hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood). to date have received a letter, beginning, “Dear I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for West Mr Baldwin”, simply reiterating the FSA’s consultation Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin) on securing the debate. paper conclusions. I would like to ask the Minister to She said that it is the first debate we have had on IFAs answer a few questions. The FSA is the independent for some time, which surprises me given the amount of statutory regulator. However, it is answerable ultimately interest it has generated and the volume of correspondence to the Treasury. Does the Minister believe that it is that hon. Members received during the previous Parliament proportionate in the present case to impose a regulatory about the RDR. burden of £1.7 billion on consumers? Is the Minister The structure of regulation in the UK means that concerned that up to 25% of smaller advisers are likely regulation is the responsibility of the FSA, not the to leave the industry, handing a competitive advantage Treasury. Treasury Ministers cannot dictate to the FSA to banks and bancassurers? Is he convinced that the how it should do its job. That might seem to my hon. banks will not be able to find a way to reward employees Friends an attractive idea in the present circumstance, for pushing certain products? Does he share my concern but they may be able to think of other circumstances that the FSA’s own impact assessment suggests that where it would be less attractive. Today of course we are those who get reduced access to advice are likely to be announcing the settlement in relation to Equitable Life. the smaller, poorer consumers in more remote areas? Those losses arose when the Government were responsible Does the Minister think that there might be a more for the regulation of financial services, so do not be proportionate way for the FSA to achieve its objectives? tempted down the route of suggesting that the Treasury For example, IFAs who have passed exams could add should do all financial regulation. the letters of qualification to their business cards. Consumers Access to high-quality and independent financial advice could then be educated and could choose an unqualified is vital to increasing confidence in the financial sector adviser if they preferred, but would come to know over and to ensuring that people are encouraged to save, time that there was a brand to the qualification. plan for the future and make appropriate choices. As my hon. Friend said in her speech, the impact of receiving Jesse Norman: There is also a simple solution for poor adviser advice can be financially disastrous for the firms of more than one person, which is that the senior consumer. We do not need to go far to find evidence of member can sign off on the work or qualification of the that—look at cases of widespread mis-selling of products person who has not received formal accreditation. That such as pensions and endowments and, more recently, allows for the sharing of liability, the preservation of of structured products. standards within the firm and the guarantee of good The Financial Services Authority’s view is that the quality to the customer. regulation of independent financial advisers, in particular through the retail distribution review, is essential in Harriett Baldwin: I thank my hon. Friend for that rebuilding trust in the industry when confidence in helpful suggestion. financial services is at an all-time low. 281WH Independent Financial Advisers20 OCTOBER 2010 Independent Financial Advisers 282WH

Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): The Minister The existing qualification requirements for advisers is clearly outlining that risks are involved in the advice focus mainly on knowledge, whereas the new higher given by independent financial advisers. Does he agree level is primarily about understanding and applying that a risk-based approach, which is responding to that knowledge, which are core skills for every adviser complaints and which might require longer-standing to demonstrate. The result is a level playing field where financial advisers to undergo retraining, could be a consumers can have confidence that their adviser meets better way of tackling the issue? a required standard. IFAs are not the only people who have an interest in Mr Hoban: That is an interesting point, but my hon. this debate. The consumer group Which? welcomes the Friend should bear in mind that with some products, FSA’s increased standard, as it does not feel that the which might be long term, it can be some time before an current qualification level is sufficient. issue emerges. If people buy a product in their 30s—a pension product, for example—they might only find Advisers are required to maintain competence under out in their 60s that they had been mis-sold something. the FSA’s current rules as part of their approval conditions, There is a real issue about looking at complaints records and so those advisers that have actively engaged in in that way. maintaining competence by keeping up to date with The retail distribution review aims to address the market developments should not have to commit a structural problems in the distribution of retail financial significant amount of time to study.Continuing professional products, such as conflicts of interest, transparency and development can be used to fill any gaps between existing professional standards. Although the RDR is the and revised examination standards, and financial advisers responsibility of the FSA, I fully support its aims—all can opt to undertake an alternative basis of assessment, colleagues should support those objectives. I hope that instead of a traditional written qualification. That addresses the RDR will lead to increased confidence, simplicity one of the points made by my hon. Friend the Member and clarity in the financial advice sector. for West Worcestershire, about how someone who is slightly long in the tooth, as I am, might not be as On professionalism, hon. Members are familiar with exam-ready as someone straight out of university. The the fact that the rules seek to ensure that all financial alternative assessment might well help advisers in such advisers adhere to common professional standards, a situation. including an increased minimum qualification level, effective maintenance of knowledge and subscription On adviser charging, at present financial advisers to a code of ethics. The current minimum financial earn different amounts of money as commission payments, adviser qualification is at the same level as a diploma in depending on which particular firm they recommend a shift management offered by McDonald’s. We should product from and on what product they recommend. all reflect on that for a moment: the products being sold That creates a potential conflict of interest which can be by IFAs are infinitely more complex and more long-lasting damaging to consumers and undermines trust in the in their effect than a Big Mac. investment industry. The RDR rules on adviser charging The rules aim to improve trust and the service offered are designed to tackle the risk, as well as the perception to consumers. Consumers will have confidence that that commission paid by product providers might bias their financial adviser is up to the job. Investment advice. advice will be seen as a professional activity, financial FSA consumer research also found that only half of advisers will have a new status and fresh talent will be respondents understood how the value of their product attracted to the industry. The FSA reports that, rather would be affected by commission. To add to that, in than being put off by studying, many financial advisers October 2007, Which? conducted a survey of IFAs and are going on to obtain more advanced qualifications found that 82% of advisers failed to explain the document than those required by the RDR. One of my constituents, on the key facts about the costs or to have a meaningful who is an IFA, has said that when the FSA raised the discussion with their client about how advice would be minimum bar he wanted to go even further, to demonstrate paid for. There is a big issue to be addressed—getting that his qualifications, knowledge and technical expertise people to understand how they are paying for advice at went beyond those of his peers. The FSA also noted the moment—and IFAs have a role to play. that take-up for financial planning degree courses has It should be noted that consumers already pay for increased. advice, through the commission structure in their product. I know that many financial advisers have concerns We are not doing anything new by ensuring that consumers about meeting the increased qualification standards know how much advice costs. It is important that required by the RDR, but almost half of advisers consumers understand the value that good financial already meet the required level, with two years to go advice can add and that we create a much more transparent before the RDR is introduced. market in which advisers compete on cost and quality. Many financial advisers feel that the new rules should That is a good outcome for consumers. be “grandfathered,”so that those advisers with experience My hon. Friend mentioned how banks reward employees are exempt. However, how do we know how good those for pushing certain products—I understand her point—and advisers are? Someone might have been in the industry the FSA is to look into how the reward structures of for some time, but is that necessarily a guarantee of the in-house sales staff in banks affect their performance. technical expertise and quality of advice? On ability to pay for advice, we need to bear in mind Mr Nuttall rose— that not enough people are in receipt of financial advice. That is one of the reasons why our party, in opposition Mr Hoban: I only have seven minutes left and my and now as part of the coalition Government, has been hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire gave able to support the Consumer Financial Education way quite a lot, so I would like to make some progress. Body, the introduction of a social responsibility levy on 283WH Independent Financial Advisers 20 OCTOBER 2010 284WH

[Mr Hoban] Ahmadiyya Community the financial services sector and the funding of a free national advice service, which will help people review [ANNETTE BROOKE in the Chair] their financial affairs regularly, plan ahead and ensure that they hold appropriate products. Such measures will 2.30 pm help tackle some of the advice gap. I hope that the industry will work in partnership with the CFEB and Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): the Government to ensure access to financial advice. Let me start by apologising for any words that I may pronounce incorrectly. No insult is intended, and I A number of my hon. Friends raised the issue of the stand to be corrected on my pronunciation. For someone disproportionate impact of RDR on small firms. I with a name like Siobhain McDonagh, that is quite a appreciate that concern. Smaller IFA firms, in remote thing. areas in particular, will feel the impact, and they are more likely to struggle to meet the challenges of the Britain’s Ahmadiyya Muslims work hard and contribute RDR proposal, unlike the larger IFA firms and the greatly to this country. Their belief in peace and religious banks, and instead might decide to exit the market. tolerance is an example to us all, and is to be expected However, the RDR will apply to all advisers in the retail from a community whose motto is, “Love for all and investment market, not just to IFAs. hatred for none.”Their fifth spiritual head, Mirza Masroor Ahmad, lives in the United Kingdom, and their Although the change will bring challenges in the headquarters are in south London. Indeed, one of the short term, it is important that we see the advice sector world’s biggest Ahmadi mosques is in Morden. It has grow and strengthen in the long term. New and existing capacity for 10,000 people, which means that I have firms can increase supply in the long term to meet that many Ahmadi constituents, as do many neighbouring demand, and indeed the FSA has found that a larger seats. I am pleased to say that we now have the backing proportion of the costs of the RDR will be borne by of enough parliamentarians to start up an all-party larger firms. parliamentary group for the Ahmadiyyan community, In respect of the costs being passed on to the consumer, and we will hold our first ever meeting in the next few it is true that with the RDR come implementation costs. weeks. The Oxera research commissioned by the FSA found In my experience, my Ahmadi constituents are well- that such costs could translate into higher prices placed educated, cultured and have a sophisticated and peace-loving on consumers in the short term. However, over the approach. I am therefore delighted to be granted this longer term, it concluded that the higher prices could be opportunity to talk about the Ahmadiyyan community. competed away through increased transparency of prices, I understand that this is the first ever parliamentary encouraging consumers to shop around. debate specifically to discuss the Ahmadiyya faith, and I could respond to many more issues. I will write to it is a great honour to be leading it. However, I am my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire on extremely sorry to bring this community’s concerns to RDR and tax issues. the House at this particular time. The circumstances We all want to ensure that consumers have access to that led me to ask for a debate are extremely sad. On good-quality advice, delivered in a transparent and 28 May, nearly 100 Ahmadiyya Muslim worshippers professional way, so that people understand what they were brutally murdered in two separate attacks in Lahore. are buying and have paid for. I believe that that will be However, what makes the story especially poignant is taking a major step forward in improving the financial not just the fact that the Ahmadi are so peaceful but outcomes for our constituents. that their murderers were also Muslim. What I hope to do today is to examine why the attacks took place, then 11.30 am ask whether there is anything that we in Britain and the Sitting suspended. wider community can do to prevent such atrocities happening again in the future. Finally, I want to assess what the implications are for Britain of how the Ahmadiyya community in Pakistan is treated and what we can do about it. To begin, I need to say a few words of introduction about the Ahmadiyyans. Despite the fact that they have translated the holy Koran into more than 60 languages, span 195 countries and have more than 15,000 mosques and a membership exceeding tens of millions, theirs is a faith that is little known outside their community. The Ahmadiyya Muslim community was founded in 1889 and arose out of the belief that the long-awaited Messiah had come in the person of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian. Ahmad claimed to be the metaphorical second coming whose advent was foretold by Mohammed. Obviously, that contradicts the view of mainstream Muslims who believe that Mohammed is the last prophet. Nevertheless, the Ahmadiyya Muslim community is a very peaceful religion. They believe that there are parallels between Ahmad and Jesus, as God sent both to end religious wars, contend bloodshed and bring peace. For 285WH Ahmadiyya Community20 OCTOBER 2010 Ahmadiyya Community 286WH instance, they reject terrorism in any form. Ahmad and declared that Ahmadis were officially non-Muslim. declared that jihad by the sword had no place in Islam. That was followed in the 1980s by measures introduced Instead, he wanted his followers to wage a bloodless, by Zia ul-Haq’s Government to Islamicise Pakistan’s intellectual jihad of the pen to defend Islam. laws. In a similar vein, Ahmadis believe that theirs is the In 1984, Ordinance 20 significantly restricted Ahmadi only Islamic organisation to endorse a separation of freedom of religion or expression, threatening up to mosque and state and to champion the empowerment three years in jail for any Ahmadi who, for example, and education of women. Ahmad also warned his followers called themselves a Muslim. Since then, thousands of not to engage in irrational interpretations of the Koran Ahmadis have been arrested. In 1989 and again in 2008, or to misapply Islamic law. In Britain today, we regard the entire 50,000 population of the Rabwah was charged such attributes as modern and tolerant. However, those with practising Islamic worship. Ahmadis are prevented values are not shared by some other Muslim traditions, from holding public meetings and are not even able to particularly those with a more fundamentalist view vote or to register to vote because registering to vote point. For such fundamentalists, belief in a false prophet would require them to deny their faith. Ahmadis are is heretical enough, but for the Ahmadiyya Muslim barred from entry to public office except at the lowest community also to follow teachings that fundamentalists level. In order to claim to be a Muslim on the Pakistani believe are wrong is adding insult to injury. Consequently, passport, they are forced to sign a declaration that says: Ahmadis have long faced persecution. Their first martyr “I consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be an imposter.” was killed in custody in 1901, and it is estimated that Persecution by the state is at times systematic. My there have been about 200 deaths in total. Of course, fear is that such discrimination helps to feed the ideology religious disagreements have cost countless lives over of groups such as the Taliban and offers them a justification the years throughout the world. Religions have a long for some of their worst excesses. It does not legitimise and very unhappy history of attacking each other for what they do, but it might make them feel, wrongly, that worshipping the wrong prophet, even much closer to they have some kind of legitimacy. Even if there was no home than in Pakistan. violence, it makes Ahmadis feel threatened. Therefore, I am a Catholic and we are as guilty as anyone. A the Pakistan constitution poses a problem, as it gives Catholic pope promised heaven to mediaeval thugs who some perverse encouragement to extremists and belittles took part in murderous crusades against followers of a the Ahmadi community. prophet whom they believed was false—Mohammed. Non-state persecution of Ahmadis is very worrying That period of history continues to haunt us. This and appears to be growing. According to Pakistan’s country is not immune to using discrimination against Human Rights Commission, Ahmadis face the worst religions we have not liked, with Catholics on this treatment of anyone in Pakistan. The media there are occasion often being the victims. It is only a few years often virulently anti-Ahmadi, broadcasting phrases such ago that I helped to change the law to allow former as, “Ahmadis deserve to die.” In particular, the Khatme Catholic priests to become MPs. Although that law was Nabuwwat movement carries out regular activities to a throwback to a much earlier time, there are, even in oppose Ahmadi Muslims. It calls for the banning of our more recent history, examples of discrimination of Ahmadiyyat and for the killing of Ahmadis. It incites which we should not be proud, particularly in Northern attacks against Ahmadis in speech and broadcast, and Ireland. It is hard therefore to stand here and lecture is credited with introducing the widely used phrase, other countries about their practices, and we need to “wajibul qatl” which means “those who deserve to be remain humble. The fact that religions have been persecuting killed”. each other for centuries does not make it right, especially In the past decade, there has been an increasing in Pakistan where extreme groups such as the Taliban number of murders and attacks of Ahmadis, and an are already very active in creating a lot of volatility. increase in the number of pre-planned and targeted We are lucky in this country in that, on the whole, our attacks on Ahmadi mosques by Islamist militants. As religions can carry on side by side without conflict, we know, those attacks culminated in the Lahore attacks, respecting each other’s right to worship. In Pakistan, when two mosques were stormed in a well-planned most mainstream Muslims are horrified that anything assault that lasted for about four hours. At one stage, could happen to their fellow countrymen just because more than 1,000 worshippers were trapped in the Darul they have a different religion. They are as shocked as we Zikr mosque, trying to escape militants armed with are by attacks such as those in Lahore. However, guns and grenades. The Baitun Noor mosque was also discrimination is an everyday reality for many Ahmadis stormed in a co-ordinated attack. The multiple suicide living in Pakistan, and it is embedded in the Pakistani attacks by the Punjabi Taliban took place slowly, with constitution. terrorists methodically throwing hand-grenades among Pakistan’s founder, Mohammad Ali Jinnah, may have their hostages and climbing the minarets to fire at them said that the country should be a secular state in which from above. When the attackers started to run out of all were equal and religion was no business of the state, ammunition, they began detonating their explosive vests. but today’s Ahmadis do not enjoy equality. Pakistan Although the police came, they arrived late—even after was created in 1947. In 1948, Major Dr Mahmood the media arrived—and the only attackers who were Ahmed was lynched by a mob at Quetta. In 1950, caught were captured by unarmed Ahmadis. Ahmadis were murdered in Charsadda, Okara, Rawalpindi The loss of life and the prolonged and bloody siege and Mansehra. By 1974, riots and killings, attacks on prompted widespread condemnation and global media mosques, assaults, arson and looting were widespread, coverage, and it is the reason why we have asked for this and the organs of the state were not neutral. The police debate today. Many people have been in touch with me arrested victims and not perpetrators. In September about the outrage in Lahore. Shortly after the murders, 1974, Prime Minister Bhutto amended the constitution I spoke personally with Rafiq Hayat, the head of the 287WH Ahmadiyya Community20 OCTOBER 2010 Ahmadiyya Community 288WH

[Siobhain McDonagh] Last week, south London local newspapers carried front page articles about discrimination against and UK’s Ahmadi community. I wanted him to know that intimidation of Britain’s Ahmadi community. The police I was very concerned about what had happened and I are appealing for information about inflammatory leaflets wanted to see if I could do anything more to help. that have been distributed across south London, apparently by Khatme Nabuwwat, as part of a targeted ideological Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): In my constituency, campaign, and they have said that an investigation into the attacks in Lahore in May sent a shockwave through alleged hate crimes is ongoing. They have also said that the local Ahmadi community. However, I was very a teenage Ahmadi girl gave them a statement, claiming impressed that, despite that sense of shock, several that a leaflet that was written in Urdu said: months later the community displayed its altruistic and “Kill a Qadiyani and doors to heaven will open to you”. inclusive nature when it invited representatives of many Another KN leaflet, entitled “Deception of the Qadiyani”, different faiths in my constituency—Christian, Hindu, was recently displayed in the window of the Sabina Sikh and Muslim—to come together for a celebration at Hair and Cosmetic shop in Mitcham road, Tooting. the end of Ramadan. Is that not a great example of the When the local Guardian newspaper confronted staff at way forward and of how we can include all communities the shop to ask why they had put up the leaflet, a together, with respect for all different faiths and religions? worker said: “These people are not Muslims. I did it myself. They don’t Siobhain McDonagh: I totally agree with the hon. believe that prophet Mohammed is the last prophet.” Gentleman and, as I have been arguing, such inclusiveness is the hallmark of the Ahmadi faith. Many Ahmadi shopkeepers are worried about the future of their businesses after clerics demanded a We thought that it was important that Britain send a boycott of their shops. Imam Suliman Gani, of the Tooting strong message to Pakistan after the attacks in Lahore, Islamic Centre, apparently pleaded with the owner of saying that we were appalled by what had happened and the Lahore halal meat shop in Tooting not to sell his that more must be done to support Ahmadi worshippers business to an Ahmadi man, saying: in that country. At the time of the attacks in Lahore, we were concerned that the British Government should “Since the Qadiyanis are routinely deceptive about their religion, there was a potential risk of Muslims being offered meat that highlight both Pakistan’s duty to protect Ahmadis and wasn’t necessarily halal.” the poor treatment that Ahmadis receive in Pakistan. As my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields Yet another leaflet that was posted on the wall of the (David Miliband) said when he was my party’s foreign Streatham mosque called for a boycott of the Lahore affairs spokesperson: halal meat store. “It is when the international community has taken its eye off The discrimination is increasing. An Ahmadi butcher the ball in Pakistan that instability has increased…Internally, who came to London in 2001 after fleeing Pakistan has Pakistan has a duty to protect minority groups and needs the just won an employment tribunal after being sacked by support of its allies to do so.” the owner of the Haji halal meat shop in upper Tooting. Rafiq Hayat told me that he agreed with that sentiment The owner, Azizur Rahman, had put pressure on his and I hope that the Minister can join us in expressing employee to convert to the Sunni Muslim faith. Apparently, the Government’s views to the Pakistan Government in Mr Rahman said that pressure was placed on him his speech later in the debate. “by the head of the Sunni sect who had helped Mr Rahman to I am concerned that the discrimination against Ahmadis gain admission for his daughters to a single sex school for girls.” that is embedded in the Pakistani constitution can be Mr Rahman also claimed that he had been influenced construed by militants as giving them legitimacy. The by a conference hosted by KN at the Tooting Islamic Pakistani Government are already facing many difficulties centre in March, where worshippers were ordered to with al-Qaeda and other militant groups, and the British boycott Ahmadi-run shops. During that conference, the Government need to work hard to convince them to KN’s Abdul Rehman Bawa said: help to fight global Islamic terrorism. As the June issue “I don’t know why our sisters or mothers are talking with these of Terrorism Monitor notes: Qadiyani and making friendships...Don’t make friends with “As the Pakistani Taliban are trying to spread their war on the them...They are trying to deceive you, they are trying to convert Pakistani state, they are likely to continue to target minorities like you from Islam to Qadiyanism.” the Ahmadis in their efforts to create instability.” According to the local Guardian newspaper, the owner If we do not persuade mainstream politicians in Pakistan of one Tooting halal butchers shop said that his trade to stand up for the Ahmadi Muslim community, we risk had virtually halved in three months, and claimed: further Islamicist militancy. Moreover, if the militancy “Some people refuse to come here just because I am Ahmadi. continues in Pakistan, it not only threatens Ahmadis They use words against me like ‘Kafir’, which means I am not but the whole international community. After all, any Muslim. I’ve lived here for 13 years and lots of people know me in increase in Islamicist activities also affects us here in the Tooting, but this situation has become so much worse now.” UK, so it is in our own interests for the Government to Furthermore, the Tooting Islamic centre was at the seek to persuade Pakistan’s Government to show more centre of another controversy, when an election hustings tolerance to the Ahmadi Muslim community. in April was disrupted by anti-Ahmadi protests. The I therefore urge the Minister to ask his colleagues to Tory candidate was mistaken by a group of fundamentalists raise this matter with Pakistani Ministers in the course for the Liberal Democrat candidate, who is an Ahmadi, of their regular meetings and to keep the new all-party and he had to be locked into a room for his own safety. group informed of any progress. The truth is that the I appreciate that not everything that appears in the Pakistani extremists’ hatred of Ahmadis is already being newspapers is the whole truth and that the real story exported. In fact, it is here in the UK today. about anti-Ahmadi activities in this country may be 289WH Ahmadiyya Community20 OCTOBER 2010 Ahmadiyya Community 290WH more complicated and untypical. I also do not want to elsewhere. We talk a lot about the big society at the focus on Tooting any more than anywhere else, because moment. The building of the mosque is a good example I have lived in the Tooting area all my life and there is of how a community can work together and draw on nowhere else in the world that I would prefer to live. My the resources at its disposal. It is a mosque of great own experience is that the vast majority of mainstream stature and presence, and it sets an example for the rest Muslims are wonderful people and respect their local of us. Hon. Members who visit can see the library, the communities in peace. TV station and the facilities for both men and women to We are still a long, long way from a Lahore-style worship. attack happening in south London, but the emergence I also welcome the fact that in a similar big-society of anti-Ahmadi activity is a great concern. I ask the vein, the Ahmadiyya community is working locally Minister to address the issue of how groups originating with other faiths to secure a large open space immediately in Pakistan are encouraging illegal discrimination and opposite the mosque for the widest possible community inciting hatred in this country, and to raise it with use. For me, that is the thing that resonates most and colleagues at the Home Office and other agencies, including comes across most strongly about that community: the the police. None of us wants to see the Pakistani attacks willingness to work with other faiths and people of no repeated anywhere else. The Pakistani Taliban and groups faith on issues that are important to us all. That is one such as KN have no place in a tolerant society and of the community’s strengths that we should respect, Ministers must exploit all this country’s diplomatic which is why it is particularly depressing that, as the skills to work with the Pakistani Government. hon. Lady described, Ahmadiyyas face such risks and In the UK, most of the time, people from different challenges around the world and, increasingly, in the religions live side by side, even though we each believe UK. I will not repeat the examples that she quoted, but that the other worships a false prophet. I include the I will say one thing about the incident at the Bentall vast majority of the mainstream Muslim community in centre in Kingston. Those who know Kingston will that. Muslims are among the most peaceful, tolerant know that if people are inciting hatred and potentially and understanding people in our community, and I say putting lives at risk in the Bentall centre, we have a that as a south London MP with a very diverse constituency. wider problem in the country as a whole. One could not However, for the sake of Ahmadis here and in Pakistan find a more affluent middle-class environment than the we must work towards a greater understanding of the Bentall centre. Ahmadi Muslim community. When the Minister responds, will he clarify what I hope that the Minister can make a commitment discussions he is having with the Home Office about the today to raising our concerns with his colleagues in the issue, particularly in relation to the Prevent agenda? Home Office and the Foreign Office, with the police, The Prevent agenda—it is currently under review, which with the Pakistani Government and with the I welcome—is about preventing extremism from developing Commonwealth. I also hope that our new all-party within communities. It seems to me that there is a risk group will contribute towards a greater understanding of that at present, and I hope that he has had or will of Ahmadis, because our aim is for the whole world to have discussions with the Home Office about how the share and respect the Ahmadi slogan, “Love for all and Prevent agenda can be brought to bear on the issue. He hatred for none”. might also be able to comment on the YouTube clips. I do not know whether he has had an opportunity to see 2.49 pm them; I recommend that he does so, and that he reads the translations provided. He might then want to reflect, Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): It is a if he has not already done so, on whether there are pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first implications under the Racial and Religious Hatred Act time, Mrs Brooke. I congratulate the hon. Member for 2006 for some of the statements being made. Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) on securing That is where I shall leave my comments, as many this debate. In spite of our political differences, we often other hon. Members clearly want to speak. What I have make common cause on issues. I hope that she will seen on YouTube seems to go beyond a discussion therefore welcome the fact that the funding for St Helier about the relative merits of religions, which is what I hospital has been re-announced in today’s comprehensive think we all want to facilitate, and the Home Office and spending review; that is a success that she can share Foreign and Commonwealth Office need to respond to with me and, indeed, with the Minister of State, Department that agenda. I hope that we will hear a forceful response of Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and from the Minister shortly. Cheam (Paul Burstow). I am also pleased to make common cause with the hon. Lady in supporting the Ahmadiyya community. I support her work and welcome 2.55 pm the fact that she is setting up an all-party parliamentary John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I group on the issue. I am happy to be a member of that apologise for being absent, Mrs Brooke; I will be chairing group and to facilitate its establishment. a meeting at half-past 3, so I will miss the Front- Bench In her opening remarks, the hon. Lady outlined well responses. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member the position of the Ahmadiyya community around the for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) not world and the difficulties and risks that Ahmadiyyas just on securing this debate but on her continued face in seeking to practise their peaceful religion in commitment to the Ahmadiyya community over the various countries. Like her, I have had the pleasure years and her dedication to a constituency that she of visiting the mosque in Morden. I went a couple of clearly loves, although she could relocate to Hayes. weeks ago with my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton For me, the issue is fairly straightforward. In this and Cheam, who I know would have wanted to participate debate, we are setting the agenda for our new all-party in this debate if his ministerial duties had not kept him group. The two issues topmost on that agenda will be 291WH Ahmadiyya Community20 OCTOBER 2010 Ahmadiyya Community 292WH

[John McDonnell] in south London and that the situation will infect the wider community, resulting in further victimisation, the discrimination that might be occurring in this country discrimination and, indeed, persecution of the Ahmadiyya and attempts to divide our communities, but the attacks community in this country. in Pakistan are also an issue. Over the years, many of us For that reason, I hope that the second item on our have signed early-day motions on discrimination, but all-party group agenda will be about receiving a report we are deeply shocked by the attacks in Lahore. I think back from Ministers on the issues surrounding liaison, the head count was 94 dead and at least 100 injured, through the Home Office, with the Metropolitan police. some very seriously. The severity and scale of the attacks What monitoring of these activities is going on, and gave us a shock. what intelligence do we have? We then need to consider All parties have made representations to the Pakistani how to devise a strategy to deal with the matter. The Government about discrimination against Ahmadiyyas, problems under discussion are based on profound as did the previous and incoming Foreign Secretaries, ignorance, which some elements within our society are but we still have had no movement on some key issues. willing to exploit to their advantage. If we can nip that First, working with Human Rights Watch, we asked for in the bud at the earliest opportunity, combating the repeal of the blasphemy laws in order to eradicate discrimination against the Ahmadiyya community may them from the Pakistani legal system. Secondly, we shine as an example that could well provide us with mentioned the failure over years to prosecute the lessons we can learn from in relation to Pakistan and perpetrators of attacks on the Ahmadiyya community. elsewhere. I am aware of no prosecution in the past 15 years in Pakistan for a serious attack on members of that 3pm community. Thirdly, we attempted to see how we could Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): I congratulate the work with the Pakistani Government to combat persecution hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain and harassment overall and understand in greater depth McDonagh) on securing an important and timely debate. the motivations for such attacks. In many cases, it is In my constituency of Battersea, like so many London small groups of extremists who perpetrate such attacks, seats, there are communities of people who have come but a culture of victimisation, persecution and to the UK from all over the world—some many decades discrimination against the Ahmadiyya community has ago and some more recently. During the four years that also built up in Pakistan and infiltrated other communities I was a candidate and in the five months that I have around the world. I will welcome any Ministers who been an MP, I have met and visited a number of come along to the early meetings of the all-party group different faith communities to get to know them and to report on the progress that they have made in their understand their concerns. The Ahmadi are one of representations to the Pakistani Government on those those communities. three issues. Although I was previously unfamiliar with the beliefs We are now encountering problems in this country. and traditions of the Ahmadiyyan faith, from my first My constituency has a relatively small but active Ahmadiyya introduction to the community I have been made very community. I convene a regular meeting of religious welcome and kept well informed. I am grateful to the leaders in my community every couple of months. The Ahmadiyyan national president Mr Rafiq Hayat, my Ahmadiyyas are active representatives who have involved local Battersea president Mr Tariq Uppal and my friend themselves in every community campaign and every Tariq Ahmed for the efforts they and others have made charitable act and target that we have set ourselves, to keep me briefed about issues of interest and concern. ranging from getting involved in local community groups I am also grateful to them for ensuring that I know and festivals to running marathons. They are excellent more about the Ahmadi and the important role that contributors to the local community. they play in the life of this country and my local The Ahmadiyyas in my area have set up a centre in community. the constituency of the right hon. Member for Uxbridge The London mosque, a very long established place of and South Ruislip (Mr Randall). It has taken over the worship and the site of the head office of the Ahmadiyyan old Irish centre, of which I was a member, the Irish Muslim Community UK, is in my neighbouring community there having moved elsewhere. I will miss constituency of Putney. The Economic Secretary to the having a pint of Guinness there, but I welcome the Treasury, my hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Justine centre. Immediately the centre was established, it opened Greening), is currently in the main Chamber, but she its doors to the wider community. We had a session has a long-standing and positive relationship with the there a few weeks ago on the theme, “Love for all, Ahmadi community and is taking a close interest in this hatred for none” in which representatives from the local afternoon’s debate. community and all religions were invited in for a genuine I was aware of the long-standing tension that exists discussion of local issues that we should address together. between some other Muslim faith groups and the Ahmadi It demonstrated the commitment of the Ahmadiyya Muslim community, especially in Pakistan where—as community to my local area. has been mentioned—persecution of the Ahmadis is, We have also launched an ad campaign in Uxbridge sadly, written into the constitution. However, it was still featuring “Love for all, hatred for none” on the sides of a huge shock and very distressing to hear of the Lahore buses. In addition, the Ahmadiyya community leafleted massacres in May. They have been described already. every house in my constituency with a similar message Those worshippers were murdered with grenades, of peace. In my area, all that work is establishing the suicide vests and automatic weapons. As we heard, Ahmadiyya community in a very close, warm and many people were killed and injured. Tragically, a local encouraging relationship with the wider community. Putney resident—a much-loved husband and father, However, there are real fears about what has happened Mr Muhammad Bilal—was one of those people murdered. 293WH Ahmadiyya Community20 OCTOBER 2010 Ahmadiyya Community 294WH

Although one of our fellow citizens was caught up in embrace and protect the Ahmadi community, as it has the dreadful events in Lahore, it is always tempting to protected other religious groups before. It is a tradition look at bad things happening in a foreign land and hope of religious tolerance that we urge Governments around that we might somehow be insulated from them. We the world to adopt and that our own Government might be tempted to think that such events spring from should encourage at all times. I am sure the Minister a tradition very different from our own and that it could will touch on that. not happen here. However, this country has long-standing In the UK, I welcome the measures already taken by and very close political and diplomatic ties with Pakistan, the borough commander of Wandsworth police to which have been reinforced through the bonds of friendship investigate what is happening in my local community. and family over many decades. That has been manifested That investigation was urged by my hon. Friend the in many positive ways. Most recently, there has been a Member for Putney and others, and is supported by hugely generous response from the British people to the Wandsworth council, as well as many councillors and devastating floods that affected millions of people in community leaders. There is more that can and should Pakistan. be done by all Members of Parliament to give leadership However, there have also been some less welcome to attempts to combat rising intolerance. I will certainly developments that have resulted in part from the ongoing be playing my part, and I am glad that this debate has close ties of culture and religion between Pakistan and offered us all the opportunity to draw attention to this its diaspora. The Ahmadi Muslim community in the very grave matter. UK has noticed that disturbing trend in the months since the Lahore massacres. As has been alluded to, the persecution of Ahmadis has intensified in tone and 3.6 pm frequency around our country, particularly in south-west London. There have been the incidents described today Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): I will contribute briefly of intimidation during the general election, and posters to the debate, because most of the points have already and leaflets with aggressive and derogatory messages been very well made by other hon. Members. I represent have appeared around the area. I have been shown Scunthorpe county constituency. Picking up the point images of posters put up in Scotland that denounce that my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Ahmadis as infidels and publish their place of worship. Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) made in initiating the That leaves those observing the poster to read between debate, prejudice is unfortunately something that we the lines. must live and work with in all our communities and get the better of through tolerance. As the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden has said, many local newspapers, including the Wandsworth A few years ago, an Ahmadi community came to Guardian, have reported on organised boycotts of Ahmadi- Scunthorpe and applied for planning permission for a owned businesses. Much of the written material that mosque. That drew huge objections from the local has appeared treads a conscious line between what is community.However, the planning application was perfectly illegal and what is merely very unpleasant. A recent correct and went through. The mosque was built and Ofcom investigation into provocative broadcasts by faith- those who lived in the community got on with their based satellite TV channels was hampered by uncertainty lives. A few months after the mosque had been established about where some programmes had been shown. and opened, the neighbour who had led the series of Translation has also sometimes proved a problem, with objections knocked on the door of the mosque. They the exact nuances of some terms often disputed, even said to the person who answered the door, “I just though the intent is obvious. I ask my hon. Friend the wanted to apologise for having led that process of Minister to keep a close liaison with the Secretary of objection because you have been fantastic neighbours. State for Culture, Media and Sport with regard to You contribute to the community and we are proud to broadcasting guidelines to ensure that loopholes are have you as our neighbour.” not exploited in such a way. I am certainly confident That little story demonstrates the way in which prejudice that we are not talking about restricting the right of free is often overcome by people living together and becoming speech; we are talking about ensuring that people do more knowledgeable about each other. The sadness of not exploit loopholes to do the very opposite of the the situation in Pakistan is that that does not appear to notion of free speech. be the case. I agree with the comments already made: Whatever the details of individual events, we do not whatever the British Government can do in working have to read too far between the lines to see that a with the Pakistani authorities to try to address the deeply worrying trend is developing. Throughout history, concerns about intolerance and violence towards the we have seen where such trends have led. Indeed, we are Ahmadi community in Pakistan would be very welcome. reminded by the origins of the word “boycott” of the We must be ever-vigilant in this country to ensure that sectarian divisions that have scarred Ireland for many our tradition of religious tolerance is protected and centuries. We must speak out now against persecution celebrated. We must also ensure that the incidents that at home and abroad. Rather than keep our silence or let we have sadly heard about this afternoon and that have things be too low key, we must speak out before it is too been reported more recently in the press do not increase. late and further tragedies take place abroad or here. We must ensure that such incidents lessen, so that there is an increased growth in tolerance. Thank you for I do not know, and actually I do not care, about the letting me contribute to the debate, Mrs Brooke. doctrinal differences that underpin so much of this unpleasant activity. I care about this country’s tradition of religious tolerance, which we were rightly reminded Annette Brooke (in the Chair): Would any other hon. earlier is still evolving and is not perfect. Nevertheless, Member like to make a contribution? If not, I call John we can take some pride in it. That tradition must Spellar. 295WH Ahmadiyya Community20 OCTOBER 2010 Ahmadiyya Community 296WH

3.9 pm groups are trying to disrupt peaceful relations, stir up hatred, damage people’s businesses and even move towards Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): It is a pleasure to physical violence. From the examples that we have been address Westminster Hall for the first time from the given, that seems to be a problem mainly in the Front Bench as a deputy member of the Labour party’s Metropolitan police area, and I certainly hope that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office team. It is also a Metropolitan police will take it up fairly urgently. As pleasure to face the Minister, who strikes the right my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington balance between being properly partisan—I heard him said, it is important to nip these things in the bud—to shouting and bawling from the Back Benches when he deal with things at an early stage, to establish norms was in opposition—and always being seen as competent and isolate those who are trying to cause the difficulty. and, even more significantly, fair-minded. Perhaps I can compromise him further with his Whips Office by saying I remind the hon. Member for Carshalton and that there is a compromising picture of him and me Wallington (TomBrake) that, leaving aside newer legislation, opening Paula Radcliffe way in his constituency. I can the concept of actions liable to cause a breach of the assure him, however, that normal service will resume in peace is long-established in legal principle. In that respect, later exchanges on the Floor of the House. the proprietors of a shopping centre, who may have rights within it, can work in collaboration with the It is also a pleasure to respond to my hon. Friend the Metropolitan police and/or the local council’s antisocial Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh), behaviour unit. There is an excellent case for joint who once again showed her qualities as a tenacious action to send the message, “This is not the sort of campaigner. She has turned a marginal seat, which was behaviour that we will tolerate in the public space in our previously not held by the Labour party, into a safe borough or in London.” We should have a strong seat, and that is based on the enormous service that she attitude of zero tolerance towards those who would has given her constituents. She has demonstrated again seek to stir up sectarian strife. today her engagement with them and the battles that she has fought on their behalf. The second aspect that has been raised is the situation My hon. Friend has not only raised an important in Pakistan. I associate my party’s Front-Bench team issue, but paid proper tribute to members of the Ahmadi with the comments that the Minister has made in answer faith, their contribution to community life in her to questions over the past few months, and specifically constituency and their success in founding businesses in response to the horrific attacks on 28 May and and being part of economic life in her constituency and 3 September. They were very much echoed in comments the country. My hon. Friend is right to be proud of that made by the previous Foreign Secretary, my right hon. success, but as I often tell groups and individuals in my Friend the Member for South Shields (David Miliband), constituency, we can also be proud of the fact that we when he was shadow Foreign Secretary. In a quote that live in a country where such success is possible. There has been previously raised, he rightly said: are a whole number of reasons for that, and we must “Pakistan’s security is paramount to stability in the region. It is fight to defend our values and customs so that such when the international community has taken its eye off the ball in things remain possible and groups can succeed. Pakistan that instability has increased. People of different faiths, beliefs and races can live The European Union needs to increase its support for Pakistan. It currently spends just half a euro per person compared to five to peacefully side by side in this country. I was very much ten times as much in other parts of the world that are not only taken by the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member more developed, but less crucial to global security. for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin), who spoke of a group that The Pakistani Government’s efforts to stabilise its western had led a campaign against a mosque. Its members provinces has seen its military stretched. recognised that they had been wrong, but more importantly, That Friday’s attacks on the Ahmadi mosques originated in they felt that it was right to convey that to the Ahmadi North Waziristan, and were carried out by suspected Pakistani community. I am not sure how many other countries Taliban militants, are areas of particular ongoing concern. that would happen in. It is particularly telling that even Internally, Pakistan has a duty to protect minority groups and those who have sometimes had prejudices and strong needs the support of its allies to do so. This is the worst attack on views can recognise when they have made a mistake. the Ahmadis in Pakistan’s history, and it is deeply saddening that That is not true of everyone by any means, and there 93 innocent people have lost their lives.” will always be a minority in society who are bigoted and That clearly reflected the previous Government’s ongoing driven by hatred, but the great majority of people in all policy in March 2009, when the previous Member for communities want to live peacefully. We must work to Harlow, who was a Foreign and Commonwealth Office ensure that we maintain such values and maintain that Minister, clearly laid out the then Government’s position, sort of country. At the same time, it strongly behoves us which the subsequent coalition Government have followed as individuals, political parties and state authorities to very well. He said that his ministerial colleague had react vigorously against those, from whichever community, raised who would disrupt society and seek to divide it. “concerns about the difficulties faced by religious minorities in My hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington Pakistan, including the Christian and Ahmadi communities and (John McDonnell) rightly said that there are two aspects the mis-use of blasphemy legislation…With EU partners we have to the debate. One clearly involves the situation and also made a series of demarches”— relations in this country, and I will return to that in a he was referring to contacts and notes— minute. The other is the situation in Pakistan. There is also the issue of how we handle the relationship between “to the government of Pakistan on protecting religious minorities.” the two. He said that the UK had pressed Obviously, it was disturbing to hear the contributions “the government of Pakistan to promote tolerance, and take from my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and measures to protect freedom of religion or belief” Morden and other colleagues, who told us how certain and 297WH Ahmadiyya Community20 OCTOBER 2010 Ahmadiyya Community 298WH

“called for the reform of discriminatory legislation”, considerable number of non-believers in any faith. They which has been mentioned in the debate. He said that made major donations to assist those whose lives have the UK had been so disrupted. It is clear that the bonds between our “urged the Minister for Minority Affairs to raise awareness about countries are strong, but I stress that is not to do with abuses against minorities and to increase their political representation recreating a position based on a colonial past. Even so, at all levels.” we should not be averse to raising human rights issues. He added that in July 2008—this was not just a response Nor should we make the perhaps slightly lazy assumption to immediate events, but part of an understanding of that in a vibrant, dynamic country such as Pakistan the ongoing problems—the UK and its EU partners there is monolithic uniformity of opinion. It is undoubtedly had called far more nuanced and sophisticated. “on the government of Pakistan to specifically protect religious It is interesting to note that an independent survey freedoms and human rights of the Ahmadis.”—[Official Report, showed that about 90% of Pakistanis believe that religious 24 March 2009; Vol. 490, c. 192W.] extremism is the greatest single threat to the country. It I want to press the Minister a little with regard to the seems a shame that, as someone commented, the extremist specific event, and the occasion in May when he described 3% seem to be holding the other 97% to ransom. It is the attack on the mosques in Lahore as important, therefore, that Pakistan should not be isolated “a tragic example of the discrimination faced by the Ahmadiyya from the mainstream of international community, and community” very important that ordinary Pakistanis should remain and added: in contact with the outside world, and should understand that we do not believe they all follow the views of a “Our high commissioner in Islamabad has raised the attacks rabid, vociferous minority. and the discrimination suffered by the Ahmadiyya community in Pakistan with the Chief Minister of Punjab along with his EU My hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden colleagues, and the issue has also been raised by our high commission rightly stressed the efforts of the Taliban to destabilise with the Pakistani Ministries of Interior and Minorities.”—[Official Pakistan by inciting hatred and violence towards minorities, Report, 14 June 2010; Vol. 511, c. 301W.] and the Ahmadi minority in particular. However, we It is not just a matter of getting agreement at national should recognise that the Taliban are not very concerned, level in Pakistan; it is also a matter of recognising the either, about their fellow Sunni Muslims. In fact, they significant role of provincial and local governments in probably hold them in greater disregard than they do protecting minorities in Pakistan. Therefore, national other groups. They are an extremist group and are agreement and understanding is important, but things prepared to use extreme violence to impose a backward must go deeper, through the structures of the Pakistan view. They are a threat to the stability of the country as Government. well as to minorities, with the present case being the worst example of that at the moment. We should remember John McDonnell: The most disappointing aspect of in this and other contexts that intolerance of others’ the attack this year was the fact that according to the beliefs and sectarian violence rarely stay within the Human Rights Watch report, the Ahmadi community bounds of a country; they spread across frontiers. That and others in Pakistan had approached the Chief Minister is what is happening and that is why we need to respond of Punjab in advance to seek enhanced security for in Britain. Ahmadi mosques. That was not provided and the mosques The Minister has a number of questions to respond were vulnerable as a result, with the attack resulting in to from hon. Members who have taken part in the so many deaths. I concur with my right hon. Friend in debate, but I ask him also to outline what steps are trying to ensure that the message should be given not being taken by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office just to the Pakistani Government, but should be to convey our strong concern to the authorities in implemented at provincial level. Pakistan at national, provincial and local level. I assure him of our support in getting that message across. Mr Spellar: My hon. Friend ably reinforces my point. I am sure that the Minister will take that on board. I hope that the steps that have been suggested will be 3.26 pm taken, so that the message will get across at different The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign levels in Pakistan. and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt): It is a pleasure The debate rightly touches on relations with Pakistan, to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Brooke. I thank a country with which we have long and deep links, you for presiding over the debate, and I thank colleagues which is a major player in an important region and a who have taken part. I begin, of course, by thanking the partner in responding to terrorism. Furthermore, as has hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain been obvious during the debate, many of our citizens McDonagh) for her contribution and for raising this take a deep and informed interest in its affairs. That is important subject. As the right hon. Member for Warley shown by the huge response in the UK—not just from (Mr Spellar) said, her commitment to her community— the community that originates in Pakistan—to the floods both the section of it to which the debate relates, and all in Pakistan. As far as I am aware, the UK has been the others—is noted in the House, and brings her recognition second biggest donor, both in the response of individuals wherever she goes. It is another part of her work that and in the Government response to the distress caused she does commendably in the House, and we thank her by the floods. That has been so throughout the country. for bringing it to the House’s attention. I was at an event a few weeks ago in my constituency I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Warley for and there were some major figures there from the his kind remarks. We do indeed go way back. We are Pakistani community—as well as from the other both members of the Whips’ brotherhood, albeit on communities: Hindu, Sikh, Christian and probably a opposing sides of the House. We have both been around 299WH Ahmadiyya Community20 OCTOBER 2010 Ahmadiyya Community 300WH

[Alistair Burt] for more than 20 million people—misery on a scale that is difficult to contemplate in the UK, as the area affected for a while. I appreciated the right hon. Gentleman’s is the size of our country. It is one of the worst disasters work in Government. He was a good Minister and easy the world has ever seen. The UK has been at the to talk to. Coming to open a road in my constituency of forefront of the international response to the crisis, course marks him out as a special colleague, and I committing £134 million for urgent humanitarian relief thank him for that. If I remember rightly, I think that and to help people rebuild their lives. I ran the 10 km race on that occasion— Siobhain McDonagh: Several Members have mentioned Mr Spellar: There are differences between us. the amount of money that the British population have Alistair Burt: I was going to say that ministerial contributed to the relief effort in Pakistan, but we engagements prevented him from running; but it was a should also put on the record the work of the Ahmadis’ good occasion and I thank the right hon. Gentleman own charity, Humanity First, in raising funds and providing for his comments, which I reciprocate. Although properly services in Pakistan during the floods. partisan we are able, we hope, to put such things to one side when we need to. This is one of those occasions. Alistair Burt: The hon. Lady anticipated my next In foreign policy there are many areas in which a point, which is about the voluntary contributions, but I change in Government makes little difference to what would not have mentioned that charity specifically, so I are conceived to be British interests. As to human rights thank her for mentioning it. In addition to what the and related matters I think the House can be assured Government have spent, as the right hon. Member for that the view of the House, the Government and the Warley has said, the response from the community country is reflected in Government. There may be nuances across the UK generally, whether or not they have from time to time, but the things that we hold valuable relationships with Pakistan, has been remarkable— are shared between us. The House will find the Minister £60 million from different communities up and down and the Opposition speaking together in our condemnation the country—and those with family connections have of the attacks that are the subject of the debate and in been especially involved. We will continue to do that our concerns about what can be done in the future. work. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the European Human rights and the treatment of minorities are Union, and it is important that we work closely with it. obviously of major concern to the hon. Member for Recently, my right hon. Friends the Foreign Secretary Mitcham and Morden in seeking the debate, and they and the Prime Minister attended a European summit at are important to us all. She made a powerful and at which they took the lead in pressing the European times distressing case when she discussed circumstances Community to do still more to improve trade agreements affecting her constituents, and events in Pakistan. Her to enable the Pakistani Government not only to get over concerns for her constituents were echoed by the hon. the immediate hurdle of the floods, but to look forward Members for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) to re-establishing their economy and to have the right and for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) and by other hon. infrastructure to be able to do so. The EU was able to Members who spoke. take our lead and produce more trade concessions, which will give significant assistance to Pakistan in the The United Kingdom Government are concerned future. about the ongoing discrimination against the Ahmadi Muslim community in Pakistan and around the world. Pakistan is also suffering from the scourge of terrorism. I am grateful for the opportunity to talk to hon. Members More than 3,000 Pakistanis died last year as a result of about it. We welcome the news about the all-party terrorist attacks. Those attacks and the groups that group and will keep in touch with that. The hon. Lady perpetrate them pose a grave threat to Pakistan and to and her fellow officers will know that they need only the stability of the region and beyond, including the make contact with us and we shall respond. She recognises, UK. I would like to repeat the words of the Prime through the establishment of the group, the importance Minister when he paid tribute in August to the resilience of the community to many hon. Members in the House of the people in Pakistan in facing that threat. We are of Commons who have relevant constituency interests. committed to working with Pakistan to defeat this I will certainly draw the Home Secretary’s attention to threat. It threatens both our countries. the remarks have been made today concerning events Human rights are at the core of our foreign policy. that take place in the UK. I will move on to the matters We raise our concerns about human rights, wherever affecting home affairs later, but there is no doubt that and whenever they occur, without compromise and will the matter has resonance both for our foreign relations continue to do so. As the Foreign Secretary made clear responsibilities and for what happens in the UK. in a recent speech, we will improve and strengthen the I would like to put our relationship with Pakistan in work of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office on perspective before dealing with the hon. Lady’s specific human rights. That will be underpinned by British points, because it is important, and the right hon. values and by our support for democratic freedoms, Member for Warley referred to that, too. The Government universal human rights and the rule of law. That approach are committed to a long-term, productive and friendly will be based on realism; we will never overlook human partnership with Pakistan. Our two countries share rights abuses and will always strive for progress, but we many strong ties: our history, the deep familial routes in will be practical in our approach and flexible about our 1 million-strong British Pakistani diaspora, extensive what might work best in different contexts, which is business links and close cultural connections. only sensible. As we have heard, Pakistan is currently dealing with The multiplicity of links between the UK and Pakistan major domestic challenges. The recent devastating floods means that we engage with each other on all subjects— have caused an immense amount of damage and misery counter-terrorism, security policy, immigration, trade, 301WH Ahmadiyya Community20 OCTOBER 2010 Ahmadiyya Community 302WH development, education, the rule of law and human I turn now to the attack on Lahore that was the rights. As I have outlined above, that last subject is subject of many of the remarks made by the hon. critical to the conduct of UK foreign policy. It is as Member for Mitcham and Morden. The attacks against relevant to our relationship with Pakistan as it is to our the two Ahmadiyya mosques in Lahore on 28 May, relations with the rest of the world. We do not shirk which killed 93 people and injured more than 100, from our responsibilities in highlighting our concerns prompted a worldwide response and rightly generated about human rights, including to our friends. widespread indignation in the UK, both from Pakistan has made important progress in improving parliamentarians and the general public. The attacks, human rights. The ratification of the international covenant unfortunately, were among many that violent extremists on civil and political rights and the convention against have carried out against both minority and majority torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment Muslims over the past few years. and punishment is an important step in enshrining The Foreign Secretary, as has been acknowledged inherent rights in law, although we hope that the this afternoon, was swift in his denunciation of the Government will look to remove or redraft the current attacks. Shortly after, the British high commissioner in reservations that they have lodged against both treaties. Islamabad raised both the attacks and the wider It is important that those instruments are fully implemented discrimination of the Ahmadiyya with the chief Minister to help to ensure the human rights of all Pakistanis. of Punjab, Shahbaz Sharif. I echo the point, made by However, Pakistan continues to face significant challenges the right hon. Member for Warley, that it is important in those areas, and we remain committed to working that we engage at both federal and provincial level, with the Government of Pakistan to address them. One which we do, in order to make our points on human of the most important challenges is discrimination against, rights. It is essential that the message gets though everywhere. and persecution of, those of a particular religious belief, Senior officials from the British high commission in whether Christians or Sikhs, as is sectarian violence Islamabad had regular contact with officials from the between Sunni and Shi’a Muslims. It is vital that the Ministry for Minorities on the matter long before the Government of Pakistan uphold the fundamental rights attacks took place, and continue to do so. What more, of all Pakistani citizens, regardless of their faith or then, can we do to help end the difficulties faced by belief. Pakistan can only benefit if all its citizens are Ahmadis in Pakistan and elsewhere? Most importantly, able to play a central role in society. We regularly we must engage robustly and regularly with the Government reinforce that point for our colleagues in the Government of Pakistan, and we do. Following the attacks, I met of Pakistan at all levels, and they have now established a with members of the Ahmadiyya community from the Ministry for Minorities, which has active leadership UK. I had the honour of meeting the national president, and has brought about some positive changes. A remaining Rafiq Hayat, and members of the community in my critical challenge, as has been mentioned today, is the office, and I am grateful for his insights on the issue at reform of Pakistan’s blasphemy legislation to ensure the time. He was able to give me at first instance that it is properly implemented. Misuse of those laws is evidence of discrimination and attacks on the community. the basis for much of the discrimination suffered by As a result of that, in answer to a question from the religious groups in Pakistan, as the hon. Lady made hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom clear. Brake), I contacted the Home Secretary and briefed her about the matter so that she was able to take it into her Tom Brake: On discrimination, are the FCO and the calculations and her concerns about extremism in the Department for International Development in a position United Kingdom. I shall ensure that a copy of today’s to monitor effectively whether the aid for Pakistan is debate goes to her, with emphasis on the remarks that being delivered equally across all communities? have been made. Alistair Burt: The short answer is yes, and I know that because the point has come up before. If I may, I Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): Would will deal with that towards the end of my remarks. my hon. Friend agree that MPs are best placed to show The Ahmadiyya community in Pakistan is 4 million leadership on this issue in our local communities, and to strong. Following the creation of Pakistan in 1947, the speak out against any persecution of Ahmadis? community played an important role in the development of the new country; Pakistan’s first Foreign Minister Alistair Burt: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. On was an Ahmadi, and many prominent members of both such issues, it is clear that those of us in leadership the army and the civil service followed their faith. positions have a responsibility to speak out. She put However, since the mid-1950s Ahmadis have faced that clearly. increasing levels of discrimination, culminating in the passage of constitutional restrictions on their way of Indeed, I thought my hon. Friend the Member for life: in 1974 the Pakistan Parliament adopted a law Battersea (Jane Ellison) also got it right when she said declaring Ahmadis to be non-Muslims, and in 1984 a that, for most of us, differences in doctrine between further ordinance was passed, forbidding Ahmadis to those of different faiths, including majority faiths, are refer to themselves as Muslims or to “pose as Muslims.” never a justification for violence or discrimination. We Pakistanis themselves must take the lead in legal reform all have different views on many things. None of us of the constitutional and legislative constraints on Ahmadis. should be able to use those differences of view as an The Government of Pakistan have a responsibility to excuse, for that is what it is, to discriminate or commit protect all their citizens, regardless of religion or belief. violence against others—or, if not physical violence, to The structural nature of that discrimination helps to use the language of abuse which all too quickly can be create an environment of intolerance that manifests turned against a group of people. We have seen that in itself in horrific attacks. our own society and community and, sadly, worldwide. 303WH Ahmadiyya Community20 OCTOBER 2010 Ahmadiyya Community 304WH

[Alistair Burt] seriously. He wanted to communicate to me just how seriously his Government take these issues and this As my hon. Friend said, we do not really care about case, and I put that before the House. those differences. What we care about are tolerance and I commend the recent report by the all-party group the principles of respect for different views, protection on human rights on their recent investigation into the under the law and freedom from fear. Those are the treatment of Ahmadis in Pakistan, and I note its things that matter to people in the UK, and within that recommendations. The members of that group will be we allow people to hold their different views. If those pleased to learn that the British high commission in principles are transgressed, we are all violated to some Islamabad has been funding a project to increase the degree, and that is why we will continue to speak out so capacity of law enforcement officials, Government clearly. representatives and civil society to implement and monitor I shall draw to the attention of my right hon. Friend proper procedure in blasphemy cases. That is a way in the Home Secretary the matters raised here that affect which we can use the Foreign Office budget directly and the UK, because they indicate a degree of fear and practically to build capacity, and to assist those who concern in the Ahmadiyya community that must be would like to see change to achieve it. recognised and discussed in those places where that community might be under threat. This debate has The hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington done a valuable job in bringing forward the issues discussed media reports that aid for the victims of the affecting people in this country as well as abroad. flooding in Pakistan is being denied to some religious groups. That is very disturbing. The UK is committed I conclude by going back to the Pakistan side of to ensuring that the aid that we provide reaches those things and saying a little more about the matters raised who need it most. Access to aid should not be predicated by the right hon. Member for Warley. Together with our on religious or political belief, which is a principle to EU colleagues, we have a regular human rights dialogue which all humanitarian organisations and non- with the Government of Pakistan in which the continuing governmental organisations delivering UK aid subscribe. mistreatment of religious groups features strongly. I The Department for International Development closely have been disturbed to hear about reports from the monitors how our aid is distributed and undertakes leadership of the Ahmadiyya community of discrimination strict checks on the organisations that we fund, to which continues to be suffered both here and abroad, ensure that our aid is spent properly and delivers the and we mention them when speaking to those we deal intended results. I welcome the commitment by the with from Pakistan. They are aware of the knock-on Government of Pakistan to ensure the equitable distribution effects in the UK of comments and discrimination in of aid to those in need, and look forward to their Pakistan. adhering to that principle. I speak regularly to Shahbaz Bhatti, Pakistan’s Federal Minister for Minorities—most recently, just last week. Discrimination against or marginalisation of any group The work that he is doing to reform the blasphemy laws because of their religion or belief is not acceptable. The is incredibly important, and we support him wholeheartedly UK is consistent in condemning all such instances when in it, but I do not think that any of us have any false they occur, and I know that hon. colleagues on both expectations. We recognise just how difficult it is to deal sides of the House support that. The Government are with such laws in a culture that has been turned against aware of and critical of the discrimination faced by the minorities and against the Ahmadiyya community.Despite Ahmadiyya in Pakistan. We are committed to working the strenuous efforts of many in that Government to with the Ahmadiyya community, NGOs and the say and do the right things, it is hard to get such things Government of Pakistan on the issue in a spirit of through. openness and understanding. Accordingly, I thank the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden for bringing Trying to change the blasphemy laws provides perhaps the matter to the House, and assure her that she will the best opportunity for a change in attitude. I have have our support in taking it forward in the future. raised the treatment of Ahmadis in Pakistan with the Pakistani Minister and, through him, have been monitoring the progress of the case against those accused of the Annette Brooke (in the Chair): I thank all the contributors Lahore bombings. The Government of Pakistan must to the debate. ensure that the investigation and legal process are open, transparent and credible. I spoke to the high commissioner for Pakistan at lunch time, to inform him of this debate and to get an 3.46 pm assurance from him that he takes these matters extremely Sitting suspended. 305WH 20 OCTOBER 2010 Mutual and Co-operative Rail 306WH Franchise Bids Mutual and Co-operative Rail Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): I Franchise Bids apologise to my hon. Friend for missing the very first part of his contribution. Is there not a similarity between what he proposes for Network Rail and the model 4.29 pm that the coalition Government have endorsed as the Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): It is a way forward for something that was introduced by pleasure to undertake this debate today. I thank the us—foundation hospitals? Exactly that type of structure Minister of State for the communication that I have had has been designed to help to hold to account the senior with her office in the past few days. We are talking management of our hospitals. about an important subject. We all like to grumble about the railways. Hon. Members are not exempt from Gavin Shuker: I thank my hon. Friend for his that; indeed, I could tell the story of my last disrupted intervention, with which I completely agree, and I associate journey, which was this morning. However, the very myself with his comments. What we have seen from the difficult privatisation of the early 1990s, brought about coalition Government is a desire to look at innovative by the Minister’s predecessors, sought to privatise a models across public services, and I believe that railways network in 40 weeks. That meant severe growing pains should not be exempt. and a sharp learning curve. Other countries are travelling As I was saying, a democratically elected members’ down that path over several decades, which is perhaps a council with the power of appointment and pay over salutary lesson to the present Government about the Network Rail’s board could drive up performance. path and speed of change. However, we all accept that a Co-operative and mutual structures deliver organisations new order is emerging, and it is right to accept that that act in our interests. Who would be a better boss of aspects of the industry today are the envy of Europe. the rail network than the passengers and the British In the past 10 years, the combined measure of reliability public themselves? and punctuality has risen from 78 to 91.5% and satisfaction Moving on to the bulk of my remarks on rail franchising, has risen from 72 to 83%, with more passenger journeys in a reply to a question from my right hon. Friend the now undertaken than at any point since the second Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) in the House on world war. Yet,as we come into the constrained spending 22 July, the Minister said: context of the comprehensive spending review, as the “There would be no barriers to mutuals and co-operatives Department closes its consultation on rail franchising, bidding for franchises if they fulfilled the criteria.”—[Official and as customer expectation will rise in light of the Report, 22 July 2010; Vol. 514, c. 541.] massive fair increases of RPI plus 3 proposed by the However, it is clear that there are still some barriers to coalition Government, a re-examination of provision entry, despite the stated desire of the coalition to explore on the UK’s passenger railways must surely be prioritised. innovative models of public service delivery. We in the So, how do we improve rail? It is my assertion today Co-operative party would like to see those models given that co-operative and mutual ventures across the industry all the opportunities that are before them. can raise the bar. They can model accountability and The system as it stands does not make allowance for effective public engagement, and improve services. When the arrival of mutual and co-operative ventures. First, looking at franchising, which is the bedrock of the bidders are required to pass a number of detailed passenger network, it is necessary to set it within the financial tests during the bidding process. ASLEF has context of the industry, which means briefly discussing said that a mutual bid would not be able to meet the the infrastructure manager—Network Rail. performance bond requirement, and has called on the Network Rail’s board structure, with about 100 members, Department for Transport to review the performance is perceived as clunky and ineffectual in providing effective bond criteria. Surely that is an area for examination. control. In 2004, the then Transport Committee stated: Secondly, bidders are understandably required to show “Network Rail did not convince us that members of the experience of operating transportation systems. Can company were exercising an effective control of the company”. the Minister provide an assurance that the interpretation In July 2008, the Committee returned to the theme of of that requirement is wide enough to ensure that Network Rail, and found its governance “inadequate”. mutual models in which individual members have extensive Network Rail provides a vital public service and was experience of running transport services—even the ones created as a public interest company, limited by Government that they currently work on—but in which there is a guarantee, but genuine accountability, which is essential new team coming together, perhaps under a new brand, for driving up standards across the railways, is vital and are able to bid on a level playing field? Thirdly, the fact should be expected in return for the large sums of that no franchise has yet been awarded to a mutual money that the body receives from the taxpayer. ownership model on the railways itself serves as a The Co-operative party has been key in developing a barrier to entry. mutual model for Network Rail through “The People’s To bring about the innovation that could drive up Rail” campaign, and as a Co-operative MP I welcome levels of service and accountability across the industry, that contribution. The campaign contests the assertion will the Minister carefully consider the arguments for that true accountability could be ensured by our all awarding the first mutual franchise during her time as having the right to become individual members of Network Minister? Perhaps she could start by meeting representatives Rail. As a genuine mutual venture, Network Rail could of ASLEF. The union has been preparing a mutual bid be structured in such a way that we all had a voice. A to run the east coast main line rail franchise when democratically elected members’ council with power invitations to tender are announced in 2011. It believes over the appointment and pay of Network Rail’s board that the co-operative principles of sustainability and could drive up performance and accountability and, accountability should be brought front and centre in dare I say it, tackle a culture of excessive bonuses. the provision of passenger rail in the UK. 307WH Mutual and Co-operative Rail 20 OCTOBER 2010 Mutual and Co-operative Rail 308WH Franchise Bids Franchise Bids [Gavin Shuker] 4.39 pm

A common perception is that co-operatives are small The Minister of State, Department for Transport and therefore unable to step up to the financial requirements (Mrs Theresa Villiers): It is a pleasure to serve under of such a large franchise. However, the Co-operative your chairmanship today, Mrs Brooke. Group has a turnover of more than £10 billion, and the I congratulate the hon. Member for Luton South east coast franchise turnover is only £550 million. The (Gavin Shuker) on securing the debate and providing us Go! Co-operative is one of the most recently established with the opportunity to discuss an important issue, train operating companies, and down the track, as it namely the potential involvement of mutuals and were, it seeks to run open-access train services. That co-operatives in the rail franchising process. The issue is co-operative has already been authorised by the Financial of concern to a number of hon. Members and has been Services Authority to raise the required funds, and I am the subject of a range of parliamentary questions. sure that the Minister will want to welcome that initiative. I would like to make it clear that the coalition I encourage her to take the time to talk to representatives Government support the creation and expansion of of Go! Co-operative and to understand, in real time, mutuals, co-operatives, charities and social enterprise. both the challenges and the opportunities that are presented We fully appreciate and recognise the brilliant work to people who enter the franchise system. done by the co-operative, mutual and not-for-profit sector in many areas of policy and public life. In fact, we want to see such groups playing a bigger role in Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): delivering public services and in helping us to tackle the Does my hon. Friend agree that the strength of mutuals key social problems that we face in modern Britain. is that they can represent the interests both of those working in the organisation and those who use its I want to be clear: the Government would treat a rail services? franchise bid from a mutual or a co-operative in exactly the same way as they would treat a bid from a competitor in the commercial sector. If a mutual, co-op or any Gavin Shuker: Absolutely. I thank my hon. Friend for other not-for-profit organisation can meet the accreditation that intervention, and I would like to associate myself criteria, it may bid for a franchise. If it offers the best with her comments. It is true that when different deal for the passenger and the taxpayer, it can win the stakeholders, including the people who work on the franchise. I cannot promise to bend the rules for mutuals railways, are brought together, that always results in a and co-operatives, but I can promise to treat them fairly much better service. Rail franchising is a key aspect of and objectively, judging their proposals on the same mutuals’ activity on the railways, but there are other basis as those of their commercial competitors. ventures, too, to consider. Before I deal with how the accreditation and procurement process works, I will respond briefly to the points made Enterprises that are owned and controlled by those by the hon. Member for Luton South on Network who have a vested interest in their success should not be Rail—not obviously the subject of today’s debate, but confined to the running of the railway itself. Many important none the less. I hope, Mrs Brooke, that you services that work alongside the main business add will allow me the latitude to respond. value to the traveller experience. Services such as cleaning, catering, customer service and training would be greatly The hon. Gentleman is right that we need to reform improved by local accountability that allowed the services Network Rail. I am glad that there is growing consensus to respond flexibly to changing needs. The Cleaning around that—before the previous general election, the Co-op based in Bristol has already won contracts to Government seemed to think that there was no justification work with Birse Rail, CrossCountry and Virgin Trains. for reform, so I welcome his voice joining those of us It provides cleaning services to Oxford and Bristol who think that we need mechanisms to make Network universities, local schools and the NHS. As a result of Rail more accountable. He is right that we need to take its unique structure, it not only provides a highly professional care to get any reform right—we want not to rush into service but has a high staff retention rate and a motivated it, but to think carefully about the best way to deliver work force. It is highly valued by its clients, who are also results for passengers and taxpayers. its partners. The Cleaning Co-op is one example, but I recognise and, to an extent, share the hon. Gentleman’s there are many successful retail, catering and training concerns about the Network Rail decisions on bonuses co-operatives, all of which could add to the traveller in recent months. I am pleased that the company has experience in a mutualisation of rail franchising. suspended its management incentive plan, which I hope Mutualism has much to offer in the governance of we see reformed in the future. We are determined to Network Rail, the system of rail franchising and the make Network Rail more accountable and more efficient. services that enable a decent passenger experience. I Our work is informed by that of Sir Roy McNulty, and I hope that the Minister will speak about the positive have no doubt that our discussion today and the speech contribution of these talented, professional and visionary by the hon. Member for Luton South will also form an co-operatives. As we all recognise, UK rail faces significant interesting part of the McNulty review. challenges in the years to come. There is a requirement In order to address the issues raised by the hon. to show that passengers are getting a fair deal. There is Gentleman about mutuals, one first needs to consider a desire to see profits reinvested in better services. What the general rules on rail franchising. As the hon. Gentleman better way to reassure passengers that the railways have acknowledged, rail franchises deliver an essential service. their interests are at heart and that the staff who serve There are 1.2 billion passenger journeys made every them truly have a seat at the table, than to see mutual year. The train operating companies are, at the moment, operators on our railways? substantial businesses—they each have a turnover in 309WH Mutual and Co-operative Rail 20 OCTOBER 2010 Mutual and Co-operative Rail 310WH Franchise Bids Franchise Bids excess of £100 million per annum and they provide need to be confident that each bidder will have sufficient employment to hundreds and, in some cases, thousands financial capacity to meet the working capital needs of of people. the franchise business. We need to assess with great care The Government have a twofold interest in rail franchises. whether the bidder will be able to absorb the risks that First, we need to protect the passengers’ interests and to we seek to transfer to it, which at the moment means hold train operators to the demanding obligations of obtaining the performance bonds that the Department service delivery placed on them by their franchise contracts. needs as security in the event of a franchise default. Secondly, we need to protect taxpayers’ interests, by The hon. Gentleman has made a passionate plea on obtaining value for money from the franchise contracts behalf of co-operatives and mutuals. I value their work, and for the considerable sums spent on the railways. but I would be very reluctant to compromise on rules The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that, while some that require us to make a careful assessment of the franchises pay a premium and others receive a direct financial capacity of those that bid for rail franchises, subsidy, all operators benefit from the Government because of the accompanying potential risks. Having grant made to Network Rail to maintain and renew the said that, we are looking at the whole process of the infrastructure. He will appreciate that considerable sums franchising system as part of our response to the are at stake when a franchise is let and that, in letting a consultation. A key aim of the franchising process must franchise, we trust the operator with serious and important be to protect the interests of passengers and taxpayers, responsibilities in relation to our economy and transport so it is essential that we have safeguards in place to system. Therefore, the greatest care is needed to ensure avoid letting the contract to an organisation that, ultimately, that we do the best that we can to make the right finds that it cannot cope. The most recent example of decisions on whom we award a franchise to. franchise collapse, that of National Express East Coast, shows that it is possible to deal with that situation A key issue for the hon. Gentleman was clearly the without disruption to services. However, such collapses accreditation process used to assess whether a bidder are clearly unsettling for passengers and the work force, can qualify to take part in a franchise competition. The and leave the taxpayer with the considerable cost of Department for Transport has recently completed a stepping in to run the railways as the operator of last consultation on rail franchising—it closed on Monday—and resort. I take the opportunity to thank all those who took part. I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but financial Until the consultation responses have been properly credibility checks and standards are important, and considered, I cannot say with certainty whether the likely to become even more so in the future as we move reforms that we will undertake will involve changes to to longer franchises, as proposed in our consultation. the accreditation process. Although this is not the primary We will need to make longer-term judgments on the focus of the consultation, we are happy to consider credibility of bids and on the capacity of the potential whether ways can be found to make the process of franchisee to deliver major investment, which we hope letting franchises less complex and expensive to carry will make a considerable difference to the quality of out. Whatever reform we adopt, however, it must still experience for passengers under the proposed new ensure that the process is fully compatible with objective franchise model. public procurement principles and regulations. I am I turn now to the hon. Gentleman’s questions about sure that the debate will provide useful input for the the experience assessed when looking at franchise bids. decisions on whether reform to the accreditation process The current rules require bidders to demonstrate a is needed, to be considered alongside the consultation track record of operating transport systems, not necessarily responses. in rail. Recent competitions have said that it should The procurement process has two main elements: cover a period of at least two years. However, a completely first, accreditation; and, secondly, the formal bid stage. new organisation might be able to meet that requirement The appropriateness of potential bidders is considered by showing that its management team and work force at the first stage. The accreditation process is designed have such a record. The issues discussed by the hon. to achieve a manageable field of bidders, which can be Gentleman could be taken on board in the assessment expected to submit attractive, competitive and realistic of whether the potential bidder had the right track proposals. Keeping the number of operators that can record to give us confidence to take their bid seriously. proceed to the formal bid stage to a manageable number A new and small organisation may have less experience reduces cost for Government and industry. The winning than other bidders and will, therefore, find it harder to bidder must be capable of delivering a high-quality get through this stage, especially if it is interested in one service at the price it has undertaken to pay. The of the larger, more complex franchise opportunities. procurement methodology needs to comply with European My officials have an open door policy for people who Union procurement law and treaty principles, including want to get into the rail franchise market. I am happy to equal treatment, proportionality and transparency. meet the delegation from ASLEF that the hon. Gentleman The legal entity signing the franchise agreement is mentioned. It is useful to put it on the record here that if required to be a limited company formed for that purpose, there are others—whether they are commercial operators, but the accreditation process assesses the financial standing mutuals or not-for-profit organisations—that are interested and technical capability of the parent organisation, so it in bidding for a rail franchise, we are willing to talk to would be open to a mutual or co-operative to establish a them, and my officials are happy to advise them on special purpose vehicle in order to run a franchise in the how to grapple with what everyone accepts is not an same way as commercial parent groups do now. Bidders easy process. are assessed to ensure that they have a level of financial The hon. Gentleman advocated waiving or reforming standing proportionate to the size of the franchise some of the requirements in the case of a bid by a concerned, in order to provide assurance as to the mutual. Removing the financial standing and technical stability of the potential operator. The Government capability factors or compromising them would import 311WH Mutual and Co-operative Rail 20 OCTOBER 2010 Mutual and Co-operative Rail 312WH Franchise Bids Franchise Bids [Mrs Theresa Villiers] I want to touch briefly on one last area. The voluntary and not-for-profit groups are already successfully engaged some real risk to franchisee financial resilience. That is with the UK’s railways: I refer to community rail my anxiety about what he advocates. If we were to partnerships. The Government are very supportive of waive the experience requirements in relation to a mutual, such partnerships and the work that they do. They have we would have to make the change for all potential successfully brought additional passengers to many lines bidders. That would reduce our ability to consider the and helped to build up services and make better use of track record of the major franchise operators that are redundant property.For example, the Devon and Cornwall currently in the market. The EU rules on equal treatment rail partnership works with the train operator in selling and non-discrimination mean that we have to treat all tickets at a number of locations. It encourages rail use bidders the same and assess them against the same by making it easier for the public to buy tickets. Partnerships criteria. Therefore, anything that we do to help a mutual such as South Fylde, Leeds to Morecambe and the or co-op would also have to be offered to a commercial Clitheroe line have produced impressive promotional operator. If we were to relax the requirement on a track material. Others such as the Bittern line in Norfolk have record, we would not be able to assess the previous run successful promotional events. Almost all partnerships experience and performance of the only groups that see the voluntary sector involved in improving and currently hold franchises. There would be public anxiety maintaining station facilities. There are numerous examples if the track record of train operators could not be of local enthusiasts devoting huge care and attention to considered in the award of new franchises. Moreover, station gardens and floral displays. Right across the the existing process is a further incentive and addition country, from Penmere in Cornwall to West Runton in to the other regulatory mechanisms. We must keep Norfolk and Green Road in Cumbria, we see the visual performance levels high. To get through this difficult evidence of the value of the work done by the voluntary process, I encourage any mutual or co-operative that is and not-for-profit sector on our railways. considering bidding to approach my officials to get further advice. To conclude, the Government fully recognise and The hon. Gentleman referred to the Go! Co-operative. value the contribution made to the rail industry by the I am delighted that we have that as an example of a community-based and not-for-profit sector. I was interested co-operative that has expressed interest in running open to hear the hon. Gentleman’s example of co-operative access services. I gather that it would like to operate cleaning services. I have no doubt that there are other services linking main lines to some smaller market areas in which mutuals and co-operatives will get involved towns. I am told that it has identified a route from in rail supply services. Rail franchise procurement processes Yeovil Junction to Oxford for its first proposed services can present a daunting challenge to any organisation, and that it hopes to commence operation during 2011. particularly those that have not operated a similar contract That is a welcome initiative. It is not for me to say before. That is why my officials offer an open door whether it will get its paths or even get the operation off policy for potential bidders. If a mutual or co-op expresses the ground. None the less, I very much welcome its an interest in running a rail franchise, we will not place involvement in the rail industry. There are also examples extra barriers in their path. They will be subject to the of small community-based companies running services, same rules and requirements as commercial operators. such as the Wensleydale railway in North Yorkshire, If they can meet the accreditation criteria, they can bid which has taken on a branch line from Northallerton to for a franchise. If they offer the best deal, they can win a Redmire and is running passenger services. franchise. It is as simple as that. 313WH 20 OCTOBER 2010 S4C 314WH

S4C contained such a factual inaccuracy? Is it not indicative of the quality of the document submitted to the 4.57 pm Department? Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): When I requested Guto Bebb: That might be surprising. The point that I this debate on the future funding of S4C, I had not want to make is that I believe that the RPI link has been anticipated that events would move so quickly. It is fair a double-edged sword for the channel in many ways. In to say that for many in Wales, the future funding my view, the RPI link was crucial to giving S4C operational arrangements for S4C have been a very visible and independence, because it created a feeling that the easily understood example of the hard choices that we broadcaster would be independent of Government as a country now face in dealing with the deficit and the intervention. Anybody who believes that a public debt problems. This coalition must get to grips with broadcaster should be free to broadcast whatever it those issues and the mess that the previous Labour desires would obviously welcome that link and the Government has left us with. freedom that it gave S4C to pursue its own requirements. No one can deny that S4C has an important place in In many ways, therefore, the RPI link was a positive the cultural landscape of Wales. It is important to be thing. aware of the fact that the way in which the channel However, S4C had to pay a price for that link. The came into being is a key reason why its future funding problem with a funding arrangement allowing for year- arrangements are extremely important for many people on-year increases was that it created a growing feeling in Wales. After all, it is the only Welsh language broadcaster that the channel and its management were becoming in the world. Let me give a bit of historical context. The divorced from the people whom they served. When channel was launched in 1982 following a long and very S4C’s viewing figures fell, the channel felt that there was public campaign, which was supported by all strands of no need for S4C to respond, because regardless of Welsh society. It is worth noting that the decision to whether it was successful and getting the required audience establish S4C was taken by a Conservative Government figures—although in many cases it was—it was almost back in 1980. immune to the realities of falling audience share, because Despite all the doubts that were expressed about the year on year its budget would increase. viability of a Welsh television channel, it is important to Although I believe that the RPI link gave S4C a note that initially S4C proved to be a great success. The degree of independence from Government, which is success of the channel in the early years was very much crucial, it also created a comfort zone for the channel, a reflection of the fact that there was a mix of Welsh so I do not mourn the loss of the RPI link in determining programmes during the peak hours and Channel 4 how the channel is funded. However, little did I know programming that also attracted non-Welsh speakers. when I was putting together my notes that the RPI link There is no doubt that the initial few years of S4C were would be the least of the issues that we would discuss very successful. There was a period in the 1980s and today. 1990s in which audience figures were often in excess of 150,000 for peak-time viewing. Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): I am enjoying the hon. Gentleman’s history lesson about S4C’s funding, Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): On a point of order, but as he said, we have been overtaken by events today. Mrs Brooke. May we adjourn the debate for a moment There are more pressing matters of funding that need to because there is a Division in the main Chamber? be addressed, and that is what my intervention is about. Is it not true that regarding S4C, today’s announcement 4.59 pm was a shambles in terms of detail? A rather more Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. interesting and important problem with the documentation is that two versions of the comprehensive spending 5.10 pm review are currently available, one of which includes figures about S4C and how much funding it will receive On resuming— from DCMS and the licence fee. There is a suggestion that £70 million will come from the licence fee— Guto Bebb: As I was saying, Mrs Brooke, S4C’s initial period was successful, but it is important to note that it Annette Brooke (in the Chair): Order. Interventions was more than just a television channel. The establishment should be brief. of S4C unleashed creativity across Wales that led to the creation of a Welsh independent television sector, which prospered not only in Cardiff but in west Wales and Owen Smith: It is a question for the Minister, in that Caernarfon in north Wales. That was undoubtedly a case. Can he tell us what the figures are? successful period for the channel, and that sustained period of success resulted in changes to S4C’s funding The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, arrangements in 1991 that established a link with the Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): Yo u retail prices index. That link has been questioned recently, cannot question me. and has been in the news. Owen Smith: Well, then, it is a question for the hon. Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): Is my hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb). Would he like to Friend aware that the document that S4C presented to answer a question about the figures? the Department for Culture, Media and Sport on the request for budget savings said that the link with RPI Annette Brooke (in the Chair): Order. I think that this went back to 1982? Is he not surprised that the document intervention has been long enough. 315WH S4C20 OCTOBER 2010 S4C 316WH

Guto Bebb: I believe, obviously, that one reason for The fact that the RPI link has gone means that we are having this debate is that the Minister is here and can in a much more serious situation. I would like to point respond in due course. The fact that there was a leak out that the issue of the audience figures became very last night was problematic, but I am sure that the important during the review of funding for S4C. The Minister will respond in due course. RPI issue contributed to a lack of regard for the audience figures, but we still need to clarify the fact that some of Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): I congratulate the the S4C audience figures that have been bandied around hon. Gentleman on securing this debate on this important are not particularly accurate. I have my own concerns day, although I know that he did not plan it to coincide about the fact that the Broadcasters’ Audience Research with the announcement. He said that independence was Board viewing panel in Wales is possibly not sufficient important and allowed diversity in Welsh media to provide a proper audience figure. broadcasting. Does he therefore agree that giving ownership to the BBC will diminish S4C’s independence in future? Before the general election, the then shadow Secretary Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): I congratulate of State, now the Secretary of State, said that plurality the hon. Gentleman on initiating this important and was the most important thing. Will the developments timely debate. On the point about viewing figures, would harm or increase plurality? he acknowledge that one of the great successes of S4C that should be recognised—this is not borne out by the Guto Bebb: I am coming to the question whether the viewing figures—is the work that is being done in decision to link S4C to the BBC will affect its independence. relation to young people’s and children’s television? That work is very important to the Welsh-speaking 5.16 pm communities that many of us represent, and it is not Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. acknowledged in the figures.

5.23 pm Guto Bebb: The hon. Gentleman jumps ahead of me. On resuming— That is exactly the point I was going to make. In addition to the question marks we have over the BARB Annette Brooke (in the Chair): May I point out that panel in Wales, my family are a very good example of interventions should be short? Mr Guto Bebb, you must why there are problems with the viewing figures. It is watch how much time you are leaving for the Minister true to say that S4C has made an important decision to to respond when accepting interventions. invest in the content of children’s television, and I think all hon. Members in the Chamber would welcome that. Hywel Williams: On a point of order, Mrs Brooke. In my family, seven people live at home; five watch a lot This debate is hugely important for Wales, and for once of S4C and two unfortunately do not watch a lot of Welsh MPs have the opportunity to say something of S4C. The two people who do not watch a lot of S4C are significance at a time when doing so will have some counted in the figures, whereas the five people who do effect. Is there any way it is within your powers to award are not included because they are children. My twin us double injury time, given that we have had so much boys, who are six years old, would certainly be very disruption? annoyed that their viewing habits, which involve Cyw, are not included in the figures. So there are question Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Further to that marks over the S4C audience figures—specifically, the point of order, Mrs Brooke. This is a very important serial viewing figures. In addition, we should not deny debate because one of Mrs Thatcher’s great reforms that there are serious question marks over the audience was to try to ensure that the Welsh language was not a figures at peak times. party political matter and that it was put in a place where we could all agree consensually on the subject. Now that the Government have decided to play fast and David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Would my loose with the Welsh language in this way, is it not hon. Friend not acknowledge that if the figures are as appropriate that we should have a longer period to large as S4C sometimes makes out, it should be raising debate the subject? That would allow all hon. Members more than £3 million from advertising, which is roughly who have come along to show an interest in the issue the just 3% of its total budget—as of today, anyway? opportunity to contribute their thoughts. Guto Bebb: That is an interesting contribution. The Annette Brooke (in the Chair): Order. I am sure that viewing figures are a cause for concern in many ways. hon. Members who have been in the House for some There are good reasons to defend some of them, but we time are aware of the limitations of the Chair. Of have a situation in which occasionally as few as 19% of course, any hon. Member here could have applied for programmes manage a figure of more than 10,000 an hour and a half Adjournment debate and they could during peak time viewing. That is a real concern. As a still do so in the future—a course of action I would result, there has been a serious discussion about whether recommend. Obviously, all the time lost from the Divisions S4C can justify the funding that it receives. I believe will be added to the end of the debate. I call Mr Guto passionately that S4C can justify that funding. Bebb.

Guto Bebb: I shall just finish responding to the Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman intervention by the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert is being very generous in accepting interventions. Whatever Owen). Yes, the plurality and the independence of S4C we might think about the viewing figures or the funding are important; I will ask a question on that subject at formulae that have been used in the past, today’s the end of my speech. announcement has been made without any consultation 317WH S4C20 OCTOBER 2010 S4C 318WH whatsoever with S4C. He surely must agree that that is accepted the argument for having S4C, which I appreciate. reprehensible and possibly leaves the matter open for a It is likely that the channel’s funding will be transferred judicial review. to the BBC from 2014, so I would like to ask the Minister a few questions on what we have heard in the Guto Bebb: The hon. Gentleman should possibly media and from the Chancellor this afternoon. allow the Minister to explain what sort of discussions Will the funding for S4C be safeguarded within the have taken place. If there have been no discussions, I am BBC, and by what mechanism? It is all very well saying sure that will be made clear in no time at all. that the money will be forthcoming from the BBC licence payer, but by what mechanism will the S4C Mr David: What is the hon. Gentleman’s view? budget be protected within that licence fee? We are all aware that during the past four months the BBC has Guto Bebb: My view is obviously that any decision of announced a 17% cut in its programming for S4C, with this nature should involve a degree of consultation. We very little consultation, so I would like some clarification need to be aware of the fact that there is a question on that point. With regard to my earlier point on mark over the matter, when the viewing figures indicate plurality and editorial independence, if there is a change that the contribution of the channel to the Welsh language in the funding mechanism for the channel, it is imperative is not as important as it should be. So, we are where we that there is clarity about editorial and programming are and we need to think carefully about the way independence. I am sure that the Department can respond forward. to that point. Despite what I have said about S4C’s economic Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): Although the hon. contribution, the channel does play a key role in supporting Gentleman’s points are fascinating, we should go back the cultural industries in Wales, especially independent to why S4C was set up. I was very much involved in television producers. If a pot of money from the BBC the matter at the time because I was chairman of the licence fee is to be made available for S4C, would the Broadcasting Council for Wales. S4C was set up by Minister clarify whether it will be ring-fenced for Mrs Thatcher as a volte-face. She was reading Irish the independent producers, rather than swallowed by history at the time, and there was a very strong reason the BBC? Finally, we need assurances on the future why she decided that S4C should be put in place: it was funding for the channel, because if the decision for the to avoid linguistic divisions in Wales. S4C was established BBC to take responsibility for that funding is to go to provide a full service for both communities in Wales— ahead, I would like to know where we will stand not those who speak English predominantly and those who only in 2014, but in 2016 and beyond. speak Welsh. We cannot judge the value of S4C purely on the basis of the number of viewers it has; there is a much deeper reason why it exists. Hywel Williams: Before the hon. Gentleman concludes his remarks, would he tell Members whether he agrees with the scale of the cuts—25%—that have been reported? Guto Bebb: I acknowledge that there were deeper What is his opinion on that matter? reasons for establishing S4C, but we must also recognise that the channel needs to serve the people of Wales, whether they are Welsh speakers, Welsh learners or Guto Bebb: I have made it fairly clear to many non-Welsh speakers. There are question marks over constituents that I believe that a cut in S4C’s funding whether the viewing figures are disappointing at times can be justified, as long as it is in keeping with the and whether the channel is doing what it should be general cuts that the Department is facing. Having doing. The feeling that the channel has moved away spoken with numerous television companies in Wales, I from the people it is supposed to serve is demonstrated, believe that the feeling is that, with greater efficiency, a I believe, in the campaign that we have seen during the cut of around 20% is manageable, but that anything past few weeks in response to the potential threat to the more would be problematic. I hope that the cut will be channel. Even the Welsh Language Society, which no about 20%, and no more than 25%. one could doubt is committed to the channel, is arguing I could ask the Minister many more questions, but I for fair funding and a new S4C, because it believes that think that he has probably realised from the debate that the current channel is perhaps not performing as it there is a degree of concern about the transparency of should. the announcements, which I believe is no fault of the When we talk about S4C, we often mention the wider Department—the BBC got hold of the story. However, cultural and economic implications, but it is interesting we need some clarity on the announcement. I have to note that the channel’s economic contribution has asked several questions, but I should be delighted if he changed considerably over the past 20 years. The way would expand on those and comment on the critical that it once created new industries in parts of west and issues that have been raised by other Members. Ultimately, north-west Wales has certainly changed dramatically, we need to remember that we are all here because we are and the loss of the Barcud studios in Caernarfon is an convinced of the need for a television channel broadcasting indication of that change and shows that the economic in Welsh and feel that, whatever settlement is made as a argument needs to be looked at again. result of today’s announcements, it should be a long-term It is crucial that we move on and consider the future settlement, not a short-term response to a current fiscal challenges that we face. Last night it was announced crisis. that the BBC would be taking over the funding of the channel, so there is now a need for clarity on the nature Annette Brooke (in the Chair): Before calling the of the proposed settlement. We should acknowledge Minister, I remind Members that the debate will finish that the Department for Culture, Media and Sport has at 5.47 pm. 319WH S4C20 OCTOBER 2010 S4C 320WH

5.35 pm Mr Vaizey: We can spend the debate looking backwards or forwards. I want to look forward, as I believe that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, S4C has a bright future under the Government’s proposals. Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): It is an As so much of our discussions come down to funding, I honour and a privilege to serve under your chairmanship, will make it clear that in the financial year 2011-12, S4C Mrs Brooke. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member will receive £90 million, which is a substantial sum of for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) on securing this timely money. By 2014-15, the channel will receive a total of debate, which has allowed Members to consider the £83 million, which is still a substantial sum of money. future not only of S4C, but of Welsh language programming My hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy referred to and its funding levels. I want to put on the record the S4C’s £3 million of commercial income, which he felt Government’s support for Welsh language programming was a low sum of money. Nevertheless, it is £3 million, and S4C’s continuing role in it. and S4C has £27 million in reserve, which is available to spend on its statutory duty. To my mind, that is a Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): On that point, substantial sum of money for securing the future of I point out to the Minister that S4C’s headquarters are Welsh programming. based in my constituency and that I have met its executives to discuss the situation on a number of occasions. I have advised them to engage with him. I have a copy of Alun Cairns: I congratulate the Minister on the figures a statement made by S4C’s chair: that he just announced, because they are a significant “I am astounded at the contempt that the London government pledge of support to S4C. How do they compare with has shown not just towards S4C, but also towards the Welsh the cuts that the Department and the Government have people and indeed the language itself.” had to make as a result of the financial position that we Would the Minister like to deal with that statement? inherited? Will all of that money be output-focused and spent on independent production companies? Will the Mr Vaizey: I will use my hon. Friend’s intervention to BBC in any way be able to siphon it away under the make it absolutely clear that my hon. Friends have been suggested arrangement? assiduous in putting the case for S4C, and they have been not a little successful in doing so. If anyone is to be Mr Vaizey: My hon. Friend makes very important accused of contempt for S4C, it is certainly not Conservative points. Overall, the Department agreed with the Treasury Members in Wales; as my hon. Friend the Member for a 24% to 25% cut, so S4C is not being singled out. In Aberconwy noted, S4C was established by a Conservative fact, in mentioning the BBC, he reminded me that if we Government. I do not want to make the debate any take the £90 million, the £3 million of commercial more heated, so I will not comment on the chair’s income and the £27 million of reserves, we still have not specific remarks—my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff counted the equivalent of £20 million of free programming North will have to forgive me, but discretion is the that is already available from the BBC for S4C. That is a better part of valour. I will point out, however, that we substantial sum. are not a “London Government” but the Government Given the important representations made by my of the United Kingdom, and we have to make decisions hon. Friends over the past few weeks on the future of with the interests not only of the Welsh people at heart, S4C, and the interest that the people of Wales take in but of the people of the whole United Kingdom. the future of S4C, I know that parts of this debate will play on the news tonight in Wales. People in Wales Hywel Williams: Would the Minister tell Members will be watching this debate, perhaps on BBC Parliament, when the chairman of S4C and the Welsh Assembly and I want them to know about the £90 million next Government’s Minister for Heritage were informed of year, the equivalent of £20 million in programming the Government’s decision? from the BBC, £3 million in commercial income and £27 million in reserves. I have enough faith in the people Mr Vaizey: I cannot give the hon. Gentleman an of Wales to believe that they will look at the funding answer off the top of my head, but I will do so as soon figures for S4C and think that they are generous, so for as my officials make that clear to me. Alternatively, I the Opposition to depict this move as an attempt to can let him know in writing, or by answering a written undermine S4C is an outrageous travesty of the truth. parliamentary question. [Interruption.]

Several hon. Members rose— Annette Brooke (in the Chair): Order. If the Minister is not taking interventions, he is not taking interventions. Mr Vaizey: I remind hon. Members that I have only 10 minutes in which to make my case. Mr Vaizey: I was not taking interventions because I Paul Flynn: Before the Minister rewrites history, I wanted to finish my point, but I will take one now. remind him that the Conservative Government turned down the idea of a fourth channel in 1979. Mrs Thatcher Hywel Williams: May I point out that the Chancellor changed her mind under duress because Gwynfor Evans today announced that the funding for the London was touring Wales and claimed that he would starve Olympics of £9.3 billion will be maintained, that there himself to death if there was no fourth channel. She will be capital spending on Tate Modern, the British had been reading Irish history at the time and did not Museum and the British Library—all in London—and want a martyr in Wales, which could have caused all that the Arts Council England and Sport England kinds of problems. It was not an act of generosity or budgets will be reduced, but only by 15%? Those institutions good sense on the part of the Conservatives. are of huge cultural significance to the United Kingdom 321WH S4C20 OCTOBER 2010 S4C 322WH in general and specifically to England, yet a similar If not, what is the Labour party’s position? Is it to institution in Wales, S4C, is being cut by 25%. How can restore the funding of S4C to 2010-11 levels and take it the Minister defend that position? up to what it might have been in 2014-15? Does it not support the BBC taking responsibility for the funding Mr Vaizey: The hon. Gentleman knows that the 25% of S4C, although it remains independent? cut is the same as the Department’s cut, and he will no doubt be delighted, given how he wants to portray the Kevin Brennan: Sophistry. situation, that culture is a devolved matter for Wales. However, let us also discuss future arrangements. Mr Vaizey: The hon. Gentleman calls that sophistry. [Interruption.] I want to move on to a new point. I call it simple, direct questions. Opposition Members are playing politics when they know full well that S4C People have talked about a lack of consultation. The has a very generous funding settlement, has substantial BBC will not take over responsibility for S4C until reserves, has a place in the heart of the Welsh people, 2013-14. The Welsh Affairs Committee has announced and has huge support from Conservative Members of an inquiry into S4C, so there will be plenty of time for Parliament in Wales who have lobbied Ministers assiduously people to make representations about the situation. on behalf of S4C. If that is sophistry, I would like to [Interruption.] Let me set out a few markers so that know what is not. when interventions are made by the Opposition they can be made in a timely and forensic fashion. Ian Lucas: The Minister talked about S4C and the First, the editorial independence of S4C will be BBC consulting over a two-year period. When will the guaranteed, regardless of the fact that it will be funded legislation be brought forward? Will that be a matter of by the BBC. In response to my hon. Friend the Member weeks? for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns), absolutely 100% of the content budget will be spent on independent Mr Vaizey: We are introducing a public bodies Bill, production, as it is at present. That, of course, is the and under the coalition Government, Parliament has content budget, and S4C obviously has an administration plenty of time to debate Bills in a way that was impossible budget as well. The BBC will not be in a position to under the previous Government, who seemed to find siphon off money for promotion on BBC channels. It the guillotine almost as attractive as Robespierre. will be for the BBC and S4C, in the two years that they I look forward to hearing Labour Members making have to put the arrangement in place, to talk through their points, and I leave the debate with this reassurance the exact details of how the money will be used. for hon. Members. The Government are committed to Welsh language programming, we are committed to the Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): On a point of clarity, future of S4C, and we have put in place a generous will the changes that the Minister is rattling through at settlement for S4C. I have been bowled over by the the moment require legislation? energy and enthusiasm of my Welsh colleagues and their defence of S4C. It will be interesting to hear the Mr Vaizey: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the public Select Committee inquiry under the excellent stewardship bodies Bill will include a clause to break the retail prices of my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (David index link. I have no doubt that he and his colleagues T. C. Davies). We are moving forward with a bright will be able to get on their feet during its passage and future for S4C. state what the Labour party’s position is. Will Labour Question put and agreed to. Members table an amendment to retain the link with inflation, and to insulate S4C from the difficult financial 5.47 pm decisions that many other bodies are planning to take? Sitting adjourned.

53WS Written Ministerial Statements20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 54WS

There was a discussion by research Ministers over Written Ministerial lunch on Commission ideas to set up European innovation partnerships. Ministers felt these should be governed Statements from the “bottom up” rather than driven by political priorities, and have a light touch with close private sector involvement. Wednesday 20 October 2010 The Council agreed conclusions on tourism, simplifying rules governing the EU’s R and D funding programmes, and approved the launch of three joint programmes on agriculture, food security and climate change; cultural BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS heritage; and healthy eating.

EU Competitiveness Council TREASURY

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Equitable Life Payment Scheme Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): The EU Competitiveness Council took place in Luxembourg on 11-12 October 2010. Baroness Wilcox, the Under-Secretary The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark of State for Business, Innovation and Skills represented Hoban): Our programme for government pledged to the UK on internal market issues and Andy Lebrecht, “implement the Parliamentary…Ombudsman’s recommendation the UK’s Deputy Permanent Representative to the EU to make fair and transparent payments to Equitable Life policyholders, represented the UK when a Minister was not in attendance. through an independent payment scheme, for their relative loss as A summary of the discussions follows. a consequence of regulatory failure.” It has been this Government’s priority to provide a Single Market Act swift resolution to policyholders who have been waiting The Commission outlined its ambitions for the next 10 years for justice. steps on the Single Market Act. These would include A commitment to fair payments must be founded on measures to make the single market work for business a fair assessment of the losses suffered by policyholders, and be at the service of citizens. The Commission said and that must start with the ombudsman’s approach. their document would be launched on 27 October followed She sets this out in her report. “Equitable Life; a decade by a three to four month public consultation. The UK of regulatory failure”, where she introduces the concept stated its main priorities were free trade and ensuring of “relative loss”: that is the difference between what that proposals would bring economic benefits to the Equitable Life policyholders actually received from EU. It proposed the Commission should identify the their policies, and what they would have received if top 20 barriers to business and consumers as a way of they had invested elsewhere .The representations I have identifying the success of the Act. This was widely received over the summer from policyholders and their welcomed. representatives have overwhelmingly supported this The EU Patent definition, and I believe that it is the right basis for The presidency and the Commission reaffirmed their calculating loss. commitment to create a business friendly EU patent. I am aware that parts of Sir John’s analysis were The latest compromise on the proposal for a language controversial, and I have always said that I would translation regime was announced by the presidency, consider representations from interested parties on his but some member states remain opposed. The UK and work alongside it. Last week’s inquiry by the Public a majority of member states supported the proposal, Administration Select Committee and their subsequent but a few member states remain opposed. The presidency report recommended that Sir John’s final findings could reiterated its desire to find a unanimous solution between not be used in order to determine the payments due to member states, and announced that the issue would be policyholders as his terms of reference included only discussed at an additional Competitiveness Council, the findings of maladministration accepted by the previous now confirmed for 10 November. Government. Innovation I have therefore decided to reject the final findings of The Commission presented its recent Innovation Union Sir John’s report, as the later parts of his methodology strategy to industry and research Ministers separately. are dependent upon which of the parliamentary The strategy was largely welcomed. The UK highlighted ombudsman’s findings were included in his terms of the economic potential that could be realised by innovation, reference, and which were not. welcoming the aim to develop ways to influence more However, Sir John’s methodology includes a calculation private sector financing. It suggested future R and D of total relative loss, calculated from the end of 1992, is framework programmes to support research should have not affected by the restrictions on his terms of reference. a clear outcome, but felt some initiatives in the Innovation Although there is disagreement around some aspects of Union could prove sensitive. this figure, there is considerable consensus around the Other member states did not welcome a proposal to main tenets that produce it, including the “alternative set up a new Innovation Council. Most preferred innovation approach” he advocates which removes the need for work to be taken forward by the Competitiveness Council individual assessment of policyholders’ claims. The and were open to it playing an enhanced role in monitoring comparators chosen to reach it have generally been performance. recognised as being appropriate by various interested 55WS Written Ministerial Statements20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 56WS parties. The parliamentary ombudsman has also told providing their final calculation of relative loss figures. me that she broadly supports the manner in which This is available on the HM Treasury website, along Sir John has approached this calculation. with further information. Therefore, I believe that it is a fair representation of the relative loss suffered by policyholders. Towers Watson calculate this figure as £4.3 billion. CABINET OFFICE As the parliamentary ombudsman and PASC have recognised, the Equitable Life payments scheme must deliver fairness to taxpayers as well as policyholders. Boundary Commission for Wales: Interim Reviews Given the significant pressures on public finances, it would not be fair to taxpayers for the payments scheme to pay out the full value of relative loss. Taking into The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): Ihave consideration other spending commitments , and the received notice in writing from the Boundary Commission reduction in bonuses suffered by policyholders as a for Wales of commencement of three interim reviews. result of the policy value cuts in 2001 and 2003, the The reviews will be of the boundaries of the parliamentary Government have decided that £1 billion should be and assembly constituencies of: allocated to the payments scheme in the first three years Cardiff North County Constituency of this spending review period. Cardiff South and Penarth County Constituency However, when affordability is taken into consideration, Ogmore County Constituency it is important that the position of those who have been Pontypridd County Constituency hardest hit by their losses is recognised. Policyholders Vale of Glamorgan County Constituency with with profits annuities were particularly vulnerable to reductions in the value of their policies because they And the Welsh electoral regions of: were unable to move their funds elsewhere, or to mitigate South Wales Central Assembly Electoral Region the impact of their losses through employment. They South Wales West Assembly Electoral Region. have consistently been highlighted to me by all groups as those most in need of compensation. In the light of these factors, the Government will cover the cost of the total relative loss suffered by with HEALTH profits annuitants (WPAs) who took out policies after 1 September 1992, estimated at £620 million. WPAs will receive regular payments, based on their full past and Parliamentary Written Question (Correction) future relative losses. The £1 billion set aside for the first three years of this The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health spending review period will cover both the cost of the (Anne Milton): I regret that the written answers given to first three years of WPA regular payments, and all my hon. Friends the Members for Southend West payments to other policyholders. The Independent (Mr Amess) on 10 June 2010, Official Report, col. 219W, Commission on Equitable Life Payments will advise on and for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) on 13 July, Official the allocation of funding to policyholders other than Report, col.705-6W, were incorrect. They should not WPAs. I have also asked the independent commission have included the line that information on these contracts to advise me on the prioritisation of payments to is not collected centrally. I have been advised that the policyholders within this group, to ensure that those Department does collect limited information covering whose need is greatest are paid first. WPAs will continue independent sector costs. to receive regular payments beyond the spending review period, over the course of their lifetime. In this way, the The correct reply to my hon. Friends the Members payments will effectively replace the income that they for Southend West and for Suffolk Costal is that the would have received from their Equitable Life policies. Department does collect limited information on the Once these payments are taken into account, I expect cost to NHS providers (NHS trusts and primary care that the total amount paid out through the scheme will trust provider arms) of contracting services from be in the region of £1.5 billion. independent sector providers. A revised response to the questions is set out below. I have further decided that these payments will be free of tax. Table 1: Costs to NHS providers of Abortions—2008-09 I have today written to the Independent Commission £ million on Equitable Life Payments informing them of my Cost to NHS organisations of providing abortion 82.1 decision and its implications for their work, and reiterating Cost to NHS providers of contracting abortions from 10.4 my request for their advice on how this funding should independent sector providers be distributed by the end of January. As I announced Source 2008-09 reference costs on 22 July, it is our ambition to make the first payments Note to victims by the middle of 2011, and I hope that all The above excludes the cost of abortions commissioned directly by parties will work together to help meet this goal. primary care trusts from the independent sector, which is not collected centrally. This means that the figure of £ 10.4 million I am publishing alongside this the Government’s quoted above is not representative of the total cost to the NHS of response to PASC’s Third Report on Equitable Life, abortions carried out by independent sector providers, which in 2009 copies of which are available in the Vote Office. I am accounted for approximately 60% of all abortions carried out. Total further publishing an updated letter from Towers Watson NHS costs covering 2010 are not currently available. 727W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 728W Written Answers to Departmental Official Hospitality

Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for Questions Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much his Department spent on hospitality for events hosted by each Minister in the Department in each of the last Wednesday 20 October 2010 three years. [13478]

Alistair Burt: The information is not held in the form FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE requested. Total spend on official hospitality by Foreign and Commonwealth Office Ministers in each year was: Brazil: Foreign Relations £ FY 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will place in Foreign 44,856 43,824 43,421 the Library a copy of the Government’s bilateral Secretary defence co-operation agreement with Brazil; and if he Other Ministers 16,175 10,459 16,479 will make a statement. [18014] Total 61,031 54,283 59,900

Mr Jeremy Browne: The UK-Brazil Defence Cooperation Activities funded include working meetings with Agreement was signed by both countries in Rio de Ministers in the UK, meetings with senior political and Janeiro on 14 September 2010. The Agreement will be military figures from countries, and events hosted for published as a Command Paper and copies will be political and business delegations (including those in placed in the House of Commons, House of Lords and support of UK Trade and Industry). Any expenditure Votes Library when the administrative processes have on official hospitality is kept under rigorous scrutiny to been completed by the Foreign and Commonwealth ensure value for money and effectiveness and is incurred Office and Ministry of Defence. We expect this to be by in accordance with the principles of Managing Public the end of this year. A statement announcing the signing Money and the Treasury handbook on Regularity, Propriety of the Agreement was published on the Ministry of and Value for Money. Defence website on 14 September.

Burma: Politics and Government Departmental Work Experience

Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment he Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many interns has made of the (a) leadership and (b) political objectives his Department has engaged in the last 12 months; and of the Burmese government. [17884] how many were (a) unpaid, (b) remunerated with expenses only and (c) paid a salary. [17203] Mr Jeremy Browne: Burma is a military dictatorship. Power is controlled by Senior General Than Shwe. He Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office has presided over a wide range of human rights abuses engaged 86 interns over the last 12 months on eight and political prisoners have increased under his leadership. internship schemes. He is the architect of the regime’s so-called ‘roadmap to a disciplined democracy’, including elections scheduled Graduate Talent Pool (30)—a Government-wide internship for 7 November. These elections are designed to perpetuate scheme for unemployed graduates. It was used to fill gaps at Band A before the new intake of administrative staff started work. military rule. The Government are clear that they will Interns were taken on for a minimum period of three months. not be free and fair and lack international credibility. Partner University Placement Scheme (34)—the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s diversity outreach programme targeting China: Human Rights under represented groups. 19 interns were taken on for a two-week period in 2010 and will return next summer to complete their Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for placement for another two weeks. The remaining 15 were returning Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make interns from the 2009 scheme. representations to the government of China to release Cabinet Office Summer Placement Scheme (10)—a Government- from custody the Nobel Peace Laureate, Liu Xiaobo. wide diversity outreach programme. Five disabled and five ethnic minority interns were taken on for a period of six to nine weeks. [18202] Economic Sandwich Placement Scheme and Economist Interns (7) Mr Hague: The decision to award the Nobel Peace Legal Library Graduate Trainee (1) Prize to Liu Xiaobo shines a spotlight on the situation Foreign Policy Internship Scheme (3) of human rights defenders worldwide. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and the Government as a They worked in various roles spread across the office’s whole are committed to freedom of expression in all 3,000 strong London work force. All the interns were countries. It was for that reason that I raised the case of paid a salary. Liu Xiaobo, the Nobel Peace Prize Laureate, during my The number of interns joining the office will likely be visit to China in July this year and we will continue to reduced in 2011 and each scheme scrutinised to ensure urge the Chinese Government to release Mr Liu. it is needed. 729W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 730W

UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Programme continuous market engagement process from Disabilities September 2008 to September 2010 in the East of England. Peter Bottomley: To ask the Secretary of State for Lead Partner Organisation Name Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his Hastoe Housing Association Limited Department has taken to ensure its activities are compliant Orwell Housing Association Limited with the provisions of Article 32 of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities on international Housing 21 co-operation. [17885] Hanover Housing Association Jephson Homes Housing Association Limited Mr Jeremy Browne: The Foreign and Commonwealth Sanctuary Housing Association Office is committed to promoting and protecting human Moat Homes Limited rights for all people without discrimination on any grounds. We strongly support the rights of disabled Octavia Housing people as set out in the UN Convention on the Rights Metropolitan Housing Trust Limited of Persons with Disabilities, and play an active role in Hightown Praetorian and Churches Housing Association our international work by encouraging governments to Home Group Limited sign, ratify and implement the Convention. In support Estuary Housing Association Limited of this we are currently funding a project in Europe to English Rural Housing Association Limited develop practical guidelines and checklists to assist governments and non-governmental organisations on Flagship Housing Group Limited the implementation and monitoring of the Convention. Orbit Housing Group Limited In India we are funding a project which promotes Swan Housing Association Limited implementation of the Convention through the integration Paradigm Housing Group Limited of disability into health, employment, information Places for People Group Limited technology and rural development policies. Longhurst Group Limited At the UN, we continue to play a leading role in Catalyst Housing Group Limited advancing disability rights, including through our membership of the Human Rights Council and our Network Housing Group Limited support to the Office of the High Commissioner for Family Mosaic Housing Human Rights, which is currently preparing a study on Paddington Churches Housing Association Limited the role of international co-operation to promote Hyde Housing Association Limited implementation of the Convention. The Guinness Trust Aldwyck Housing Association Limited Ability Housing Association COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Bedfordshire Pilgrims Housing Association Limited Circle Anglia Limited Affordable Housing: East of England Affinity Sutton Group Limited East Thames Group Limited Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Accent Corporate Services Limited for Communities and Local Government if he will place in the Library a copy of the representations (a) Persimmon Homes Ltd his Department and (b) the Homes and Communities Bellway plc Agency has received on the 2010-11 National Bloor Holding Limited Affordable Housing Programme in respect of the East Bovis Homes Group plc of England since 6 May 2010. [17942] Crest Nicholson Operations Ltd Andrew Stunell: Both the Department and the Homes Miller Homes Ltd and Communities Agency receive a wide range of Taylor Wimpey UK Ltd representations including correspondence and meetings Galliford Try plc from many and varied organisations as well as individuals. Logic Homes Ltd Given the breadth and volume we are unable to deposit this information within the Library of the House without Barratt Developments plc incurring disproportionate cost. Larkfleet Homes Morris Homes Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Badger Building (E. Anglia) Ltd for Communities and Local Government which bodies had been allocated funding under the Homes and Broadgate Homes Communities Agency’s continuous market engagement Explore Living scheme in the East of England as at 30 September Lagan Homes Ltd 2010; and if he will make a statement. [17943] Redrow Regeneration plc Andrew Stunell: The following list shows the providers Kier Homes Limited which have been allocated funding through the Homes JS Bloor (Sudbury) Ltd and Communities Agency’s National Affordable Housing JS Bloor (Northampton) Limited 731W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 732W

Employment: Homelessness In addition HCA holds a number of residual sites not suitable for housing development. Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what his Housing: Construction Department’s policy is on deeming intentionally homeless a worker in receipt of social housing who decides to Mr Mark Field: To ask the Secretary of State for move to a different local authority area in search of Communities and Local Government if he will take work. [18041] steps to increase the level of new house building. [18104] Grant Shapps [holding answer 19 October 2010]: The Government are committed to improving current rates Andrew Stunell: The Government are committed to of mobility and giving social tenants more control over increasing housing supply from current levels. where they live. We have pledged to introduce a national The previous Government’s model of top-down housing social home swap programme to make it easier for targets failed to deliver: in 2009 just 118,000 completions social tenants to move to another home or another part were achieved, the lowest level of house building in of the country. The new scheme will increase opportunities England since the Second World War. On 6 July we to move by allowing tenants to easily see details of revoked Regional Spatial Strategies and regional housing every other tenant looking to exchange their home. targets and passed power back to local communities. The homelessness legislation provides an important Instead of going against the grain of local opinion and safety net for people who become homeless through no creating opposition to imposed new housing, we will fault of their own but is not intended to facilitate increase housing supply by introducing powerful fiscal mobility among tenants in social housing. The definition incentives so that communities benefit directly from of intentional homelessness is set out in primary legislation, housing growth. We are confident that our approach to and in any particular case it is for the local housing housing, which rebalances power from central Government authority to decide whether an applicant has made to local authorities and local people, and combines this himself intentionally homeless. Where a person has with powerful incentives for local authorities, will deliver given up his home in order to move to another area to the housing that communities want and need. We will look for work and not made arrangements for alternative set out further details on the timetable for introducing accommodation (and there was no other reason for incentives in due course. leaving the home), it is likely that a local housing We will also seek to reduce the burden of unnecessary authority would consider that he had made himself regulation on homebuilders in order to reduce costs and homeless intentionally. boost private sector investment. Further details will be announced in due course.

Homes and Communities Agency: East of England Housing: East of England

Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many for Communities and Local Government (1) how many sites the Homes and Communities Agency owns in (a) (a) flats and (b) houses were built in (i) Peterborough Peterborough and (b) the East of England; what the and (ii) the East of England in each of the last five area is of each such site; in respect of how many such years; and how many such properties of each type were sites has permission to develop been granted; and what built in the social sector; [17848] estimate has been made of the number of homes to be (2) how many homes with (a) one, (b) two, (c) built on each such site. [17853] three and (d) four or more bedrooms were built in Andrew Stunell: To offer full transparency a complete (i) Peterborough and (ii) the East of England in each of copy of this information has been placed in the Library the last five years; and how many such homes of each of the House, in the form of (i) a list recording 334 such type were built in the social sector. [17849] development sites owned by the Homes and Communities Andrew Stunell: The number of new build homes Agency (HCA), including the area of each site, in the completed in Peterborough and the East of England in East of England by local authority including Peterborough each of the last five years are shown in the following (ii) a separate list recording planning consent status in tables. Estimates of the proportions that were flats and 300 cases regarding HCA sites in the East of England, houses, and the estimated split by number of bedrooms, by local authority including Peterborough, showing are also shown for the East of England but this source also the number of housing units planned to be built on does not provide such estimates below the regional each site where this is known or recorded. level. These two lists are drawn from internal management systems maintained by the HCA for its own working Total new build completions, Peterborough UA purposes. HCA’s financial system maintains a Financial year Number comprehensive record of all its development assets. As 2005-06 880 a subset of this, HCA also maintains a separate record 2006-07 1,210 of any planning-related activity on this land. These two 2007-08 930 lists represent raw management data. To reconcile this 2008-09 680 into a single list could be done only at disproportionate 2009-10 970 cost. 733W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 734W

New build completions, East of England Financial year Total (number) Of which Flats Houses 1 bedroom 2 bedroom 3 bedroom 4 bedroom

2005-06 20,251 45 55 12 41 26 21 2006-07 22,559 46 54 12 42 25 21 2007-08 22,422 49 51 10 47 23 20 2008-09 17,916 46 54 14 45 23 19 2009-10 15,066 43 57 15 40 24 21 Source: National House-Building Council and P2 returns from local authorities.

Information for the social sector is provided in the Number following tables. This information is based on the number of social rent, intermediate rent and low-cost home Flat House All ownership homes delivered through the National Affordable 2008-09 190 190 380 Housing Programme (NAHP). The breakdown by number 2009-10 170 530 700 of bedrooms and dwelling type is available only for Notes: supply recorded on the Housing and Communities Agency’s 1. Totals are for NAHP only and include both social rent and low-cost Investment Management System which covers the large home ownership completions. majority of supply of new affordable homes. 2. Data exclude open market HomeBuy type products and bedsits. 3. The totals in the two East of England tables may not match as Not all affordable housing is provided through new studio flats are deemed to have zero bedrooms. 4. Data are rounded to nearest 10 units. build completions as supply can also come from the acquisition and refurbishment of private sector homes. Landlord and Tenant For example, in the most recent period available for 2008-09, a total of 7,710 affordable homes were provided Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for in the East of England of which 420 were in Peterborough. Communities and Local Government if he will review The Department’s ‘Affordable Housing in England the effectiveness of options for redress available to Statistical Release’, containing information for 2009-10 landlords whose tenants do not uphold their contractual will be published on 28 October. obligations. [17809] New build affordable housing completions, East of England Andrew Stunell: Overall, the current legislative framework Number of bedrooms delivers the right balance of rights and responsibilities 1234Allbetween landlords and tenants and we have no plans to change it. The issue of housing benefit being paid 2005-06 780 1,670 720 140 3,310 directly to tenants is being looked at as part of the 2006-07 960 2,070 j 810 160 4,010 Department for Work and Pensions review of the first 2007-08 1,300 2,960 1,090 210 5,550 two years’ operation of the Local Housing Allowance. The review is due to report by the end of the year. 2008-09 1,370 2,430 1,000 250 5,050 2009-10 1,180 3,130 1,180 300 5,790

Number ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Flat House All Agricultural Wages (England and Wales) Order 2010 2005-06 1,500 1,850 3,350 2006-07 2,060 1,970 4,030 2007-08 3,050 2,510 5,560 Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, 2008-09 2,860 2,200 5,060 Food and Rural Affairs how many people were employed 2009-10 2,970 2,830 5,800 in each of the six grades set out in the Agricultural Wages (England and Wales) Order 2010 in each of the last five years. [18394] New build affordable housing completions, Peterborough UA Number of bedrooms Mr Paice: The following table shows the number of 1234Allworkers in England and Wales by Agricultural Wages Board (AWB) grade for the period 2005 to 2009. Please 2005-06 10 50 20 0 80 note that the number of workers by AWB grade for 2006-07 10 70 20 0 110 2010 will not be available until the June Census labour 2007-08 20 190 30 30 270 figures for 2010 have been published in December. 2008-09 70 190 90 30 380 2009-10 70 380 200 60 700 Thousand 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Number Grade 1 19.9 27.8 22.4 23.6 28.1 Flat House All Grade 2 90.8 85.5 76.0 76.0 66.4 2005-06305080Grade 3 1.6 3.6 7.1 9.1 9.8 2006-07 50 60 110 Grade 4 21.2 15.6 17.6 22.4 22.3 2007-08 150 110 270 Grade 5 4.3 2.7 6.6 6.4 9.8 735W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 736W

Mr Paice: Once the Agricultural Wages (AWB) Board Thousand is abolished, agricultural workers will no longer have a 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 statutory right to the overtime rates of pay, on-call Grade 6 2.0 0.8 2.8 1.8 3.8 allowance (formerly stand-by duty), night allowance, All 139.8 136.0 132.5 139.2 140.3 dog allowance, birth/adoption grant, and entitlement to Notes: bereavement leave currently set out in the Agricultural 1. Salaried managers are not included. Wages Order. Instead, agricultural workers will be protected 2. June Survey information is based on data captured for 1 June of by the national minimum wage legislation and Working each year, whereas the Earnings and Hours Survey information is Time Regulations, as with workers in all other sectors of based on four quarterly surveys from January, March, June and September for the respective year. the economy. 3. These figures are based on a sample survey and are, therefore, However, any terms of an agricultural worker’s subject to a degree of sampling error. employment contract which exist at the time the AWB is Source: abolished, will continue to apply until such time as the June Survey of Agriculture and Horticulture and DEFRA survey of Earning and Hours. worker’s contract is varied by agreement between the employer and the worker, or until the contract comes to Please note that the figures provided, along with an end. This is the case whether the agreement is other related statistics, are available in the Farm Labour written, verbally agreed, or implied by custom and and Wage Statistics publications which can be found on practice. If an employer makes changes to the terms of the DEFRA website at: employment without the agreement of the worker, this http://www.defra.gov.uk/evidence/statistics/foodfarm/ constitutes a breach of contract and the worker may farmmanage/earninqshours/index.htm have a claim for breach of contract. Agricultural Wages Board Agriculture: Summertime Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps she is Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for taking to ensure that support for farm workers continues Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent following the proposed abolition of the Agricultural representations she has received on the implications for Wages Board. [18936] farmers in the North of England of any change to British Summer Time; and if she will make a statement. Mr Paice: Once the Agricultural Wages Board (AWB) [17580] is abolished, workers will continue to be protected by the national minimum wage legislation and Working Mr Paice: We have received no recent representations Time Regulations, as are workers in all sectors of the on the implications for farmers in the North of England economy. of a change in British summer time. In addition, any terms of an agricultural worker’s employment contract which exist at the time the AWB is Badgers: Disease Control abolished will continue to apply until such time as the worker’s contract is varied by agreement between the Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, employer and the worker, or until the contract comes to Food and Rural Affairs (1) if she will publish the an end. If an employer makes changes to the terms of evidence underpinning her decision to authorise a cull employment without the agreement of the worker, this of badgers; and if she will make a statement; [18387] constitutes a breach of contract and the worker may (2) what factors she took into account in her decision have a claim for breach of contract. to authorise a cull of badgers; and if she will make a statement. [18388] Agricultural Wages Board for England and Wales: Closures Mr Paice: On 15 September, DEFRA launched a public consultation setting out the Government’s approach Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, to tackling bovine TB in England and a proposal to Food and Rural Affairs whether she has commissioned address the disease in badgers. Alongside the consultation an equality impact assessment of the implications for document, we published the scientific evidence, veterinary agricultural workers of the closure of the Agricultural assessments and impact assessment on which the Wages Board for England and Wales. [18185] Government’s proposal is based. A decision on our Mr Paice: An equality impact assessment on the approach will be taken following the consultation and I implications for agricultural workers as a result of the intend to publish a comprehensive and balanced bovine closure of the Agricultural Wages Board for England TB eradication programme early in 2011. and Wales has been commissioned. It will be published in due course. Dangerous Dogs

Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Food and Rural Affairs what mechanisms will be in Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she plans place for regulation and oversight of (a) rates of pay to publish her response to her Department’s consultation for overtime, (b) stand-by duty and night allowance, on dangerous dogs. [17772] (c) entitlement to bereavement leave, (d) birth or adoption grant and (e) dog allowance for agricultural workers Mr Paice: The recent public consultation exercise on following the closure of the Agricultural Wages Board dangerous dogs legislation received 4,250 responses. for England and Wales. [18186] My ministerial colleague Lord Henley is currently 737W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 738W considering the responses and we expect to make an Forestry Commission announcement on our proposed way forward later in the autumn. Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the Food: Labelling statement of 14 October 2010, Official Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, what consideration Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for her Department gave to transferring the Forestry Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she Commission to the private sector. [18176] plans to bring forward proposals for food labelling guidelines requiring disclosure of slaughter methods Mr Paice: Prior to the announcement from my right for meat products. [18047] hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office (Mr Maude), on 14 October to retain and substantially reform the Forestry Commission, the Government Mr Paice: The European Parliament has suggested considered a range options for the Forestry Commission. an amendment to the proposed EU food information I will set out the Government’s proposals later in the regulations to require food labels to indicate whether an year. animal has been stunned before slaughter. I appreciate that this is an issue which people feel Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, strongly about and we will be working with interested Food and Rural Affairs when she plans to bring forward groups to find a way to address their concerns. People proposals for the reform of the Forestry Commission; should know what they are buying in shops and when and which models of ownership for that organisation they are eating out, and I will be discussing with the she plans to consider. [18182] food industry whether labelling and point of sale information can play a greater role in giving consumers Mr Paice: The Forestry Commission and DEFRA a choice. will publish a consultation later in the year that will seek views on the implementation of a new strategic Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of approach for forestry in England. State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what regulations issued by her Department govern the (a) Livestock: Sustainable Development sale and (b) labelling of halal meat; and if she will make a statement. [18120] Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what Mr Paice: There are no specific regulations governing steps her Department is taking to increase the level of the sale and labelling of Halal meat. However, if meat is sustainable livestock farming in the UK; what recent labelled as Halal, this must not mislead the consumer. discussions she has had on this subject at EU level; and Information provided on the label or in the presentation if she will make a statement. [17658] of a food must not be false or misleading under the Food Labelling Regulations 1996 (as amended), section Mr Paice: The Government are committed to ensuring 15 of the Food Safety Act 1990 (as amended), Article we have a thriving and sustainable livestock sector in 16 of Regulation (EC) 178/2002 (General Food Law the UK, and we are working with the industry on the Regulation 2004) and the Consumer Protection from challenges it faces. This includes Government support Unfair Trading Regulations 2008. Information provided for the agricultural industry’s Climate Change Task or the overall presentation of a food must not deceive Force in delivering its commitment to reduce greenhouse the average consumer such that the average consumer gas emissions, and for the dairy, beef and sheep, and would make a purchasing decision that they would not pork meat sectors in delivering their product roadmaps have taken otherwise. for environmental sustainability. Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for DEFRA supports research on livestock through our Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will assess research programmes on sustainable farming and food the merits of bringing forward regulations to require and animal health and welfare. halal slaughtered meat for sale to the public to be Internationally, the Government holds regular discussions clearly labelled as such; and if she will make a statement. on sustainable farming and food at EU level, with other [18209] member states, and more widely through, for example, our membership of the Global Research Alliance on Mr Paice: The European Parliament has suggested the mitigation of greenhouse gases. The Government’s an amendment to the proposed EU Food information Foresight project examining how the international regulations to require food labels to indicate whether an community can sustainably feed nine billion by 2050 is animal has been stunned before slaughter. another example of this UK leadership. I appreciate that this is an issue which people feel strongly about and we will be working with interested Sustainable Development Commission: Wales groups to find a way to address their concerns. People should know what they are buying in shops and when Mr David: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, they are eating out, and I will be discussing with the Food and Rural Affairs what recent discussions she has food industry whether labelling and point of sale had with the Welsh Assembly Government on the work information can play a greater role in giving consumers of the Sustainable Development Commission in Wales. a choice. [16862] 739W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 740W

Mr Paice: The Secretary of State and the Welsh If the referendum did not take place on 5 May 2011, Assembly Government Minister for Environment, the Commission estimates an additional £2.928 million Sustainability and Housing discussed the work of the would be required for a separate campaign for the Sustainable Development Commission when they met elections. at Environment Council on 13 October. Electoral Systems

NORTHERN IRELAND Andrew Griffiths: To ask the hon. Member for South West Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on Intelligence Services: Northern Ireland the Electoral Commission, what representations the Electoral Commission has received on the appropriateness of the involvement of its Chair in its preparations for Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern the proposed referendum on the electoral system for the Ireland which service has responsibility for (a) directing House of Commons. [17707] and (b) leading intelligence policy in Northern Ireland. [17808] Mr Streeter: The Electoral Commission informs me that it has received no such representations. Mr Swire: The Security Service directs and co-ordinates all national security intelligence collection and investigation work across Northern Ireland. PSNI officers work in Local Government: Constituencies liaison with Security Service personnel, including for the purpose of translating intelligence into executive Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the honourable Member action. In all circumstances, including where the interest for South West Devon, representing the Speaker’s is national security-related, it is the role of the PSNI to Committee on the Electoral Commission what proposals mount executive policing operations, make arrests and the Electoral Commission has made for ward boundary take forward prosecutions under the direction of the changes in Daventry district; what the timescale is for Public Prosecution Service. their implementation; and if he will make a statement. [17047] Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission Mr Streeter: The Local Government Boundary Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Commission for England (LGBCE) informs me, that at Ireland what funding he has allocated to the Northern present, it has not made any proposals for ward boundary Ireland Human Rights Commission for (a) 2011-12 changes to Daventry district. and (b) 2012-13; and if he will make a statement. The LGBCE has set criteria to trigger a review if [17807] there is significant electoral inequality in all or part of a local authority area. The LGBCE commenced an electoral Mr Swire: Funding has not been set beyond the end review of Daventry district on 20 July 2010 after it had of the current financial year. I expect that they will be identified that one ward, Abbey North, had 43% more set in the coming months, taking into account the electors than the average for the district as a whole. A implications of the spending review. draft Order, intended to implement the LGBCE’s final recommendations, will provide for new electoral arrangements for the district council to be implemented at the local elections in 2012. ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the honourable Member Alternative Vote: Referendums for South West Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission what Guto Bebb: To ask the hon. Member for South West representations the Electoral Commission has received Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on the on the Daventry district boundary review. [17048] Electoral Commission, what assessment the Electoral Commission has made of the level of funding required Mr Streeter: The Local Government Boundary for a public information campaign in respect of the Commission for England (LGBCE) informs me that proposed referendum on the electoral system for the during the council size consultation period of the review House of Commons on a day when national or local it received 12 representations, all of which can be found elections (a) are and (b) are not scheduled to take on its website: place. [17875] www.lgbce.org.uk

Mr Streeter: The Electoral Commission informs me Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the honourable Member that it estimates that the expenditure for its planned for South West Devon, representing the Speaker’s public information campaign for the proposed referendum Committee on the Electoral Commission how much the will be £6.83 million. This estimate is not affected by Electoral Commission (a) has spent and (b) plans to whether the referendum takes place on the same day as spend on the review of electoral wards in Daventry elections. district. [17189] If the referendum takes place on 5 May 2011, as proposed, the public information campaign will include Mr Streeter: The Local Government Boundary information on both the referendum and elections Commission for England (LGBCE) informs me that to scheduled, at the cost stated above. date it has spent £2633 in immediately attributable 741W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 742W costs, and an estimated further £4000 in staffing and that were classified as living in fuel poverty. This is overheads, on the electoral review of Daventry district. equivalent to 7% of all households in the Dartford The LGBCE informs me that it cannot provide exact constituency. costs for future spending. The final costs depend on the Low Carbon Buildings Programme geographical scale of the review area, its complexity, and the contribution made by the local authority to Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy framing warding schemes. Costs can change if, for and Climate Change how many Low Carbon Building example, further consultation is required at any stage. Programme grants have been made in respect of wind The LGBCE seeks to discharge its statutory functions turbines installed in locations which do not meet the while keeping down its own and others’ costs. wind speed criteria specified in the programme. [18122] Gregory Barker: The Low Carbon Buildings programme (LCBP) did not have, as a primary validity criterion, a ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE specified wind speed for the grant funding of wind Carbon Emissions turbines. Every grant application to the LCBP was scrutinised Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy before approval. and Climate Change what plans he has for the future of For all grants, regardless of technology, the overall the Low Carbon Communities Challenge Fund after criteria for acceptance was to meet benchmark £/tC02 2010-11. [17714] savings. This indirectly assesses the system performance giving an indication of value for money and amount of Gregory Barker: The Low Carbon Communities C02 saved. There are some projects which are outside Challenge is a research programme, providing grant recommended benchmarks. However anyone exceeding funding to communities over two financial years: 2009-10 the benchmark either had their grant capped, i.e. below and 2010-11. 50% or they offered a valid explanation as to why it was Work evaluating and sharing learning from the still good VFM. For example schools might have opted community projects will continue beyond 2010-11, but to use a wind turbine to educate pupils. there will be no further funding. Renewable Energy: Heating Departmental Equality Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what his most recent estimate Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for is of the cost of abating each tonne of carbon dioxide Energy and Climate Change what plans he has to under (a) the proposed Renewable Heat Incentive, (b) publish equality impact assessments undertaken by his Feed-in Tariffs and (c) the Renewables Obligation. Department as part of the comprehensive spending [17292] review; and if he will make a statement. [18279] Gregory Barker: The following table shows the latest Gregory Barker: Consultations on policy arising from estimates on the cost of abating each tonne of carbon the comprehensive spending review will be accompanied dioxide under the three schemes: by published impact assessments comprising, where appropriate, equality impact assessments. Policy Costs effectiveness Departmental Visits Abroad RHI (based on February 2010 RHI Traded sector: consultation publication) £57/tC02 Non-traded David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for sector: £75/tC02 Energy and Climate Change how much his Department spent on overseas visits for senior officials in the last FITs (based on impact assessment Traded sector: [18413] 12 months for which figures are available. accompanying Government Response, February £460/tC02 2010) Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and RO (based on analysis for Impact Assessment Traded sector: Climate Change has spent £1,525,024 on overseas visits accompanying RO Order 2010) £115/tC02 for all officials during the period of 1 October 2009 to Notes: 30 September 2010. 1. RO and RHI cost effectiveness indicators are presented in 2009 prices. FiTs costs effectiveness is in 2008 prices. The amount spent for senior officials can be provided 2. For RHI the indicator covers the period 2010 to 2045. For RO only at disproportionate cost. and FiTs the period covered is 2010 to 2030. Fuel Poverty: Dartford DEFENCE Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many households in Armed Forces: Manpower Dartford constituency were in fuel poverty on the latest date for which figures are available. [18847] Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what steps he plans to take to minimise the Gregory Barker: The most recently available sub-regional loss of expertise in the armed forces resulting from a split of fuel poverty relates to 2006, and shows that reduction in service personnel numbers in the next there were 2,800 households in the Dartford constituency three years. [17806] 743W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 744W

Mr Robathan [holding answer 18 October 2010]: At the X-factor (currently 14%) in recognition of relative the heart of the Strategic Defence and Security Review disadvantages on military life and payment to those has been a thorough examination of our force structure, experiencing an exceptional level of separation. In addition, looking at the overall shape, size and role of the armed to further recognise the sacrifices personnel make while forces, the Ministry of Defence Civil Service as well as deployed further allowances have also been introduced, the reserve forces. This includes the implications on and the operational allowance, which is itself exempt expertise of any redundancies which might result. from tax, has been doubled. Armed Forces: Pay Armoured Fighting Vehicles

Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for what plans he has for the future of the local overseas Defence if he will place in the Library a copy of the allowance; and if he will make a statement. [18241] NATO STANAG 4569 Level 2A test reports on the RWMIK vehicle platform. [17526] Mr Robathan [holding answer 19 October 2010]: Within the Strategic Defence and Security Review it Peter Luff: I regret that I must withhold the information was agreed that the overall package of allowances needs as its disclosure would, or would be likely to, prejudice to be made simpler to administer, more effective and the capability, effectiveness or security of the armed encourage greater personal responsibility. While the forces. current package will be reduced, no decisions have been taken on individual allowances. Atomic Weapons Establishment: Finance Armed Forces: Pensions Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence with reference to the answer of 29 January Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State 2010, Official Report, column 1118W, on AWE for Defence on how many occasions the monetary Aldermaston, how much his Department spent on capital value of pension awarded to the family of a serviceman expenditure for the two Atomic Weapons Establishment or woman killed in action has related to a previous sites at Aldermaston and Burghfield in each financial rank because their rank at the time of their death had year from 2000-01 to 2004-05. [17344] been held for less than 12 months in the last five years. [17744] Peter Luff: The capital expenditure figures for the two Atomic Weapons Establishment sites at Aldermaston Mr Robathan: Since 6 April 2005 there have been and Burghfield are shown in the following table: three instances of personnel killed in action when, at the time of their death, they had held an acting rank for Capital costs at outturn prices less than 12 months, and where the pension awarded (£ million) under the Armed Forces Pension Scheme 1975 was based upon their substantive rank. 2000-01 21 We are considering options to improve the compensation 2001-02 43 and pension package for the dependants of personnel 2002-03 45 who are killed in an acting rank. 2003-04 62 2004-05 92 Armed Forces: Taxation Defence Career Partnering Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) what recent representations he has received Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence on exempting the pay of armed forces personnel from how many recovery placements Defence Career Partnering tax during periods of service abroad; and if he will has made since its inception. [18274] make a statement; [17796] (2) when his Department last made an assessment of Mr Robathan: Defence Career Partnering is an the merits of exempting from tax the pay of service arrangement between the Ministry of Defence and selected personnel serving abroad; and what its findings were. organisations to promote the recovery and rehabilitation [17797] of wounded, injured or sick service personnel by way of providing work experience in areas of employment they Mr Robathan: In the last year, the Ministry of Defence may not have knowledge of. has received nine letters from Members of Parliament Since September 2009, 53 recovery placements have and the public about exempting the pay of armed forces been arranged, or are at various stages of development. personnel from tax during periods of service abroad. Experience gained by those participating in such schemes There has been no recent assessment of the merits of has rebuilt self esteem and contributed to their own exempting the pay of those serving overseas from income future employability either within the armed forces or tax. It is a long-standing rule recognised by successive outside. governments that the armed forces, like other Crown servants, are liable for the payment of income tax Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for wherever they are serving. This is not considered inequitable Defence (1) what contracts his Department has entered as the UK armed forces have an expectation of worldwide into in establishing Defence Career Partnering; [18275] service, which is reflected in their overall remuneration (2) what services his Department contracts for the package, which includes, for example, the payment of delivery of Defence Career Partnering. [18276] 745W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 746W

Mr Robathan: The Department has not entered into majority of this data is not available broken down by any contracts to establish, or for services to deliver, year. Purchases by other business areas cannot be ruled Defence Career Partnering. out. Defence Career Partnering is a partnering arrangement under which the Ministry of Defence partners with Financial year MOD Diesel Engine Group selected organisations under a memorandum of agreement 2005-06 9 to work collaboratively on a range of personnel projects. 2006-07 10 For example, the Return to Work Initiative provides 2007-08 4 work experience opportunities for wounded, injured 2008-09 13 and sick service personnel, as well as enabling industry 2009-10 17 to show their support for our armed forces.

Business area Total Defence: Procurement Battlefield Utilities 3,870 Air Commodities Team 6 Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Defence Estates1 60 what his policy is on facilitating the award to small and Expeditionary Campaign 61 medium-sized enterprises of contracts for maintenance Infrastructure Team and support for (a) Typhoon and (b) other major DE and S Ships 70 equipment platforms sold overseas. [17108] 1 Figures provided cover generators purchased in the UK only. Overseas there are different procurement arrangements and there is Peter Luff: It is Government policy to encourage and no central record. assist Small and Medium-sized Enterprises (SMEs) in Additionally, 37 multi-functional aircraft ground support securing contracts with the Ministry of Defence (MOD) equipments containing a power generation capability and overseas customers. The MOD Defence Suppliers’ along with a number of other functions, to support Service helps SMEs and other companies wishing to sell joint helicopter command battlefield helicopter operations products and services to the MOD, by explaining the from deployed flying sites, were purchased over the last acquisition process and providing contact points both five years. within the Department and for our prime contractors, who may have subcontracting requirements. The MOD encourages competition wherever possible in the allocation Departmental Equality of lower-tier subcontracts and this provides opportunities for SMEs to bid for elements of larger projects. Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for In the specific case of Typhoon, the majority of Defence what plans he has to publish equality impact contracts are placed, on behalf of the participating assessments undertaken by his Department as part of nations, by the NATO Eurofighter and Tornado the comprehensive spending review; and if he will make Management Agency (NETMA) based in Munich and a statement. [18032] are, therefore, subject to German law. International industrial consortia acting as overall prime contractors Mr Robathan [holding answer 19 October 2010]: The for the aircraft and the engines then subcontract the Ministry of Defence has carried out equality impact work, including maintenance and support of the aircraft, assessments as part of the Strategic Defence and Security to the respective national partner companies, including Review and the spending review. Records of this will be BAE Systems and Rolls-Royce in the UK. kept for a minimum of five years and will be made The UK Trade and Investment Defence and Security available to third parties if requested. Organisation is responsible for assisting British industry to identify defence export opportunities, including for major platforms sold overseas. It has a dedicated Small Departmental Public Relations Business Unit. After the Strategic Defence and Security Review process Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for the MOD will publish a Defence Industry and Defence how much his Department has spent on public Technological Policy Green Paper that will have a specific relations consultancy fees since his appointment. section dedicated to SME engagement. [17935]

Departmental Energy Mr Robathan [holding answer 18 October 2010]: Information on public relations consultancy fees is not held centrally and could be provided only at Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence disproportionate cost. how many diesel generators his Department and its As with other Government Departments the Ministry agencies have purchased in each of the last five years. of Defence is currently imposing restrictions on all new [17448] consultancy expenditure. The Office of Government Commerce will shortly be publishing details of all Peter Luff: Diesel generators are procured for a broad consultancy contracts with a value of £20,000 or more variety of requirements across the Department and the approved by Ministers since the imposition of the information requested is not held centrally. Records restrictions. No cases approved by Ministers since the indicate that the following generators have been purchased restrictions were imposed have involved public relations by the Ministry of Defence since 2005, although the consultancy. 747W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 748W

Military Decorations EDUCATION

Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to the answers of 6 September 2010, Academies Official Report, column 172W, on military decorations and 15 September 2010, Official Report, column 1286W, on armed forces: medals, whether the review Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for team on the award of medals has been constituted; Education for what reason his Department does not whether the terms of reference for the review have been require academies to provide the curriculum entitlement of a maintained school; and if he will make a statement. set; and if he will make a statement. [17798] [12276] Mr Robathan: In our programme for Government we stated that we intended to review the awarding of medals. Mr Gibb: Academies are not required to follow the Discussions are currently taking place in order to determine national curriculum because we believe that having the the scope and terms of reference of this review. flexibility to be imaginative in their curriculum design, within a broad and balanced context, is a core freedom Nuclear Power: Decommissioning which is at the heart of the academies programme. Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for All academies established by the Secretary of State Defence what his most recent estimate is of the enter into a funding agreement. This funding agreement monetary value of decommissioning liabilities at provides the framework within which the academy must Atomic Weapons Establishments. [17295] operate. Furthermore, the ongoing funding of the academy trust is contingent upon the conditions in its funding Peter Luff: The cost associated with the decommissioning, agreement being met, one of which is having a curriculum care and maintenance of redundant facilities at the that is balanced and broadly based. Atomic Weapons Establishment is estimated to be in the order of £2.7 billion as at 31 March 2010, at 2009-10 prices. This figure includes the conditioning, retrieval Adoption: Finance and storage of contaminated materials.

Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Charlotte Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many facilities at Atomic Weapons Education what recent discussions he has had with Establishments are (a) timetabled for decommissioning, the Secretary of State for Communities and Local (b) incare and maintenance awaiting decommissioning Government on the cost to adoptive parents of adopting a child; what plans he has for the future level and (c) undergoing decommissioning. [17296] of the inter-agency fee; and what recent representations Peter Luff: The numbers of nuclear facilities at the he has received on the financial situation of voluntary Atomic Weapons Establishments that are timetabled adoption agencies. [14481] for decommissioning, in care and maintenance awaiting decommissioning and undergoing decommissioning are Tim Loughton: Regular discussions take place, covering 33 timetabled for decommissioning, six in care and a wide range of topics, between Ministers from the maintenance awaiting decommissioning, and three Department for Education and their counterparts in undergoing decommissioning. the Department for Communities and Local Government. Local authorities have the discretion to give financial Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for support to adopters whose adopted children can cost Defence whether a timetable has been set for more to care for than other children. Although local decommissioning the gravel gerties at the Atomic authorities must make their own decisions, I hope they Weapons Establishment, Burghfield. [17315] will always want to prioritise services for the most vulnerable, including looked-after children, and those Peter Luff: Decommissioning activities for the gravel moving into and out of care. gerties (the current nuclear warhead assembly and dissassembly facilities at Atomic Weapons Establishment, Ministers are in close contact with representatives of Burghfield) are currently planned to commence in late the adoption sector, and are very aware of their concerns. 2015 and to be complete in late 2021. They do not set the inter-agency fee, but are currently considering what action should be taken in other areas, Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for for example to help reduce delay in placements for Defence what options are under consideration for adoption. It is particularly important that local authorities decommissioning the Pangbourne Pipeline at the take full account of the evidence in the research paper Atomic Weapons Establishment (AWE) Aldermaston; ‘Adoption and the Inter-agency Fee’: and when he expects the AWE Executive Board to http://adoptionresearchinitiative.org.uk/study7.html complete its business evaluation of proposals for This makes clear that effective use of voluntary adoption decommissioning the pipeline. [17316] agencies has a positive impact on finding suitable and Peter Luff: Two options are under consideration for timely placements at a lower cost for local authorities. the decommissioning of the Pangbourne Pipeline: to I have set up an adoption advisory group that will leave it in-situ or to remove it. The Executive Board of look at all aspects of adoption, to help ensure that AWE plc is expected to complete the evaluation of suitable adoptive placements can be made available in a proposals for decommissioning the pipeline by March timely manner for all those children for whom adoption 2011. is the appropriate permanent placement. 749W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 750W

Children In Care and LSCBs in London has been carried out by a team within the Department for Education. This team will, Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Education from a later date, also carry out this function in relation if he will bring forward proposals to improve arrangements to local authorities and LSCBs across the rest of England. for accountability in decision-making in respect of decisions The Government are committed to ensuring that we on removal of children from parental care. [18367] have the information necessary to support our national role in relation to child protection. We will keep these Tim Loughton: A key principle of the Children Act new arrangements under review and have sought feedback 1989 is that children are best looked after within their from local authorities and LSCBs on the operation of families unless compulsory intervention in family life is the new system. necessary.This is reflected in the local authority’s functions to provide services which support children and their Departmental Travel families. Unless they have the parents’ consent, local authorities Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Education cannot remove children from their parents’ care without what estimate his Department has made of its expenditure first referring the matter to a court. In every case where on travel undertaken in an official capacity by each a child is taken into care on a care order, the courts will Minister in his Department in (i) May 2010 and have considered all the evidence and taken the view that (ii) June 2010. [8225] there is reasonable cause to believe that the child is suffering from, or is likely to suffer, significant harm. Tim Loughton: As set out in the ministerial code Departments will publish, at least quarterly, details of The Family Justice Review is currently considering all travel overseas by Ministers. Information for the first what changes are needed to improve the operation of quarter will be published as soon as it is ready. the family justice system and deliver better outcomes for the children and families it serves. Care proceedings I refer the hon. Member to my answer given to the and the accountability arrangements supporting them hon. Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley) on 6 are part of the review’s deliberations. The review is due September 2010, Official Report, column 346W. to deliver its interim report in the spring and its final All travel is undertaken in accordance with the ministerial report in the autumn next year. code. Children: Protection Education: Finance

Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Education what plans he has for the future provision of for Education what grants his Department has made child protection services previously provided through to (a) the Personal Social Health and Economic the Government Office Network; and what assessment Education Association, (b) the Sex Education Forum he has made of the likely effects on child protection of the National Children’s Bureau and (c) the services of the closure of that Network. [16420] National Personal and Social Education Association for Advisors, Inspectors and Consultants in each of the Tim Loughton: Following the Government’s decision last five years; how much grant funding is planned for to close the Government office for London and the each body in the next two years; what the (i) monetary announcement of its intention, in principle, to abolish value and (ii) purpose of each such grant is; and if he the remaining eight regional Government offices, the will make a statement. [17857] Secretary of State for Education has made clear that we will be ending virtually all of this Department’s functions Mr Gibb: The Department has made grant payments delivered by Government offices. to the Personal Social Health and Economic (PSHE) Association over the past five years as follows: Closing the regional Government office network is in line with the Government’s policy on removing Grant (£) administrative layers and simplifying accountability across national and local government, and reducing public 2006-07 200,000 expenditure. It will also contribute to delivering the 2007-08 150,000 Government’s commitment to empower local authorities 2008-09 260,000 by removing top down monitoring, support and challenge, 2009-10 260,000 freeing them up to focus on their own plans for 2010-11 260,000 improvement. To support Government’s accountability for the child The purpose of the grant was to support the provision protection system as a whole, departmental officials of PSHE in schools; for the first two years (2006-07 to have notified Ministers routinely of significant developments 2007-08) the grant money was paid to the National in relation to serious child care incidents, so that a view Children’s Bureau (NCB) who hosted the Association. can be formed as to how well child protection arrangements The Sex Education Forum (SEF) received grant payments are working across the country. This information has up from the Department over the past five years as follows: until now been provided by local authority and Local Safeguarding Children Board (LSCB) staff to Government Grant (£) office Children and Learner teams who have, in turn, 2006-07 143,000 liaised with departmental officials. From 1 October the 2007-08 143,000 gathering of information on serious child care incidents 2008-09 158,000 and serious case reviews in relation to local authorities 751W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 752W

(2) how many and what proportion of pupils entered Grant (£) for history GCSE in (a) comprehensive schools, (b) 2009-10 156,000 selective maintained schools and (c) independent 2010-11 116,000 schools obtained a grade C or above in each year since 1997. [15947] The overall purpose of grant funding for the SEF over the last five years was to support schools in providing Mr Gibb: The information is given in the following sex and relationship education. More specifically in tables. years 2006-07 and 2007-08, £27,000 was allocated to develop guidance and set-up and maintain a support Number of pupils1 entering Percentage of pupils1 network for health advisers working in drop-in centres history GCSE2 entering history GCSE2 in schools and FE colleges. In 2008-09 the grant included School 3 3 funding to cover work related to the previous Government’s type Comp Selective Indep Comp Selective Indep review of Sex and Relationships Education in schools. 1997 166,407 10,898 20,940 35.7 53.6 50.0 Funding for 2009-10 was set at £156,000 to continue the 1998 152,067 10,033 20,450 31.9 50.2 46.9 development of networks, promulgate best practice and 1999 152,865 10,313 19,826 31.7 50.8 46.3 work towards making PSHE, including Sex and 2000 153,018 10,735 20,155 31.8 53.2 47.2 Relationship Education, statutory in the National 2001 156,114 11,330 20,863 31.2 54.0 47.4 Curriculum (part of the previous Government’s policy). 2002 154,434 11,423 21,245 30.6 53.8 48.1 Grant funding for 2010-11 has been provisionally profiled 2003 155,124 11,424 21,286 30.0 52.6 48.0 at £116,000. 2004 163,468 12,140 22,233 30.7 54.6 47.3 The Department has not paid any grants to the 2005 161,904 12,213 23,439 30.8 54.8 50.1 National Personal and Social Education Association 2006 164,103 12,542 23,907 30.7 55.7 49.1 for Advisors, Inspectors and Consultants over the past 2007 161,001 11,865 23,951 29.8 52.8 49.9 five years. 2008 160,362 12,147 23,694 29.9 53.8 49.5 Grant payments for the next two years have not yet 2009 155,381 11,914 23,229 29.9 53.2 48.0 been decided. Number of pupils1 passing Percentage of pupils1 entering GCSE history GCSE2 at grade history GCSE2 that pass at A*-C grade A*-C 3 3 Mr Brady: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Comp Selective Indep Comp Selective Indep what proportion of children taking GCSEs in (a) grammar 1997 86,339 10,005 19,342 51.9 91.8 92.4 schools, (b) comprehensive schools, (c) secondary modern 1998 79,579 9,379 18,971 52.3 93.5 92.8 schools and (d) independent schools were awarded five 1999 83,305 9,681 18,494 54.5 93.9 93.3 or more GCSEs at (i) A* to A and (ii) A* to B grades in 2000 85,186 10,197 18,819 55.7 95.0 93.4 the most recent year for which figures are available. 2001 86,813 10,781 19,387 55.6 95.2 92.9 [12636] 2002 87,543 10,751 19,895 56.7 94.1 93.6

Mr Gibb: In 2009, the percentages of pupils awarded 2003 91,133 10,932 20,070 58.7 95.7 94.3 five or more GCSEs by school type and grade are 2004 96,222 11,589 20,907 58.9 95.5 94.0 shown in the following table: 2005 97,748 11,648 22,062 60.4 95.4 94.1 Percentage of pupils at the end of key stage 4 who were awarded 5 or 2006 100,031 11,927 22,391 61.0 95.1 93.7 more GCSEs 2007 99,823 11,357 22,496 62.0 95.7 93.9 Percentage 2008 100,935 11,597 22,191 62.9 95.5 93.7 Grades A*-A A*-B 2009 99,697 11,457 21,679 64.2 96.2 93.3 Notes: Grammar schools 63.3 91.0 1 For the years 1997-2004, 15 year old pupils are counted. For the Comprehensive 12.1 29.9 years 2005-09, pupils at the end of key stage 4 are counted. Note also schools that these figures include pupils recently arrived from overseas that Secondary modern 5.0 18.4 will not be included in the local authority level figures in PQs 15948 schools and 15949. 2 Only full GCSE courses have been counted. Mainstream 48.6 72.3 3 Pupils at independent special schools are also counted. independent schools Note: Music: Education GCSEs counted are full/applied, short course (counts half) and double awards (counts double). Source: Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Achievement and Attainment Tables. Education what steps he plans to take to identify and nurture musical talent in schools following the end of History: GCSE the Standards Fund in 2011. [12528]

Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gibb: A solid, knowledge-based music education Education (1) how many and what proportion of pupils for all children and young people is very important to were entered for history GCSE in (i) comprehensive this Government. We also believe that every child should schools, (ii) selective maintained schools and (iii) learn to play a musical instrument and to sing. No independent schools in each year since 1997; [15946] decision has been taken on funding for music education 753W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 754W beyond March 2011 as the spending review continues. All figures quoted are internal management information Following the review we will set out how we plan to only and are subject to change. This information has promote the teaching of music and the development of not been quality assured under National Statistics protocols. musical talent in schools. The Secretary of State announced on 24 September that he has asked Darren Henley, managing director of Classic FM, to carry out a review Borders: Personal Records focusing on the funding routes and delivery mechanisms for music education making recommendations on how Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for the the funding for music education can be made to work Home Department how many consultants her harder and smarter to produce that quality experience Department employed on the e-Borders programme in for children and young people. each year since 2006-07, and at what cost; what the role of each such consultant was; what assessment she has made of the performance of such consultants against the objectives of the programme; and if she will make a HOME DEPARTMENT statement. [16990]

Asylum Damian Green [holding answer 13 October 2010]: The following table provides the numbers and costs of consultants and independent contractors employed by Paul Uppal: To ask the Secretary of State for the the e-Borders programme since 2006: Home Department what recent assessment she has made of her Department’s progress against its objective to Consultancy 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 complete outstanding decisions on legacy asylum cases by 2011. [17994] Headcount 103 81 53 60 Costs (£) 10,046,869 9,601,330 10,651,890 11,810,027 Damian Green: The chief executive of the UK Border Agency, Lin Homer, updated the Home Affairs Select The consultancy expenditure during 2010-11 for the Committee (HASC) on 19 July 2010. The Case Resolution first six months (April to September) has been £4,706,591. Directorate had concluded 277,000 cases up to the end The periods covered saw the programme move from of May 2010. She will provide a further progress update procurement of the strategic solution and provision of on the conclusion of these cases in her next correspondence the Semaphore pilot system to the more complex activity to the HASC later in the autumn. to assure the design and delivery of the strategic solution. The fall in consultant and contractor headcount during Asylum: West Midlands this time did not deliver an equivalent reduction in cost since there was an associated change in the mix and Paul Uppal: To ask the Secretary of State for the type of consultancy support provided, along with a Home Department how many asylum seekers who are need to use more hours from individual consultants the subject of legacy cases are resident in Wolverhampton because of the pressures on the programme and the South West constituency. [17995] requirement for their specialist knowledge. Prior to contract award, the role of consultants was Damian Green: The UK Border Agency is unable to to manage and provide advice on the procurement accurately report on the outstanding asylum cases being process. Following contract award, consultants provided dealt with by the Case Resolution Directorate (CRD) in advice and support in a number of areas including the Wolverhampton South West constituency. business design, programme management, carrier and As reported in July 2010 to the Home Affairs Select port liaison and testing activities. Committee, 50% of the concluded cases were data All work carried out by consultants was agreed in errors and required no further action. In addition, due formal work packages which detailed the deliverables to the age of some cases addresses on file are subsequently and activities required. Achievement of those deliverables found to have changed. Therefore, any such report was signed off by civil servants. Consideration of the would be unable to accurately represent CRD cases value for money provided by consultants in carrying with outstanding applications. out these activities was an integral part of the process in The agency will be reporting on its current performance agreeing each work package. in clearing the backlog later in the autumn. I am confident The e-Borders programme has been managed throughout that the agency is on track to clear the backlog of older by senior civil servants reporting ultimately to the senior asylum cases by summer 2011. responsible officer. Advice and guidance on specialist areas of expertise has been provided by consultants Paul Uppal: To ask the Secretary of State for the during this period to the senior management team and Home Department how many asylum seekers who the e-Borders programme. applied for asylum in the last 12 months are resident in Wolverhampton South West constituency. [18001] Borders: Procurement Damian Green: Between 1 October 2009 and 30 September 2010, 147 main applicants and 71 linked Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for the dependants (a total of 218 individuals) applied for Home Department if she will assess the value for asylum with addresses within the area of Wolverhampton money of undertaking a further procurement exercise South West. for the e-Borders programme. [18262] 755W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 756W

Damian Green [holding answer 19 October 2010]: Human Trafficking: Convictions Since the e-Borders contract was terminated on 22 July 2010 due to significant and persistent breaches of contract Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for the by Raytheon Systems Ltd., it has been necessary to Home Department how many people have been (a) develop a strategy to procure services to replace those arrested, (b) charged, (c) prosecuted and (d) convicted under the original e-Borders contract. This will include in relation to offences of trafficking for sexual exploitation rigorous assessment of value for money. under sections 57 to 60 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003. Entry Clearances: Overseas Visitors [17976]

David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for the Damian Green: As of 30 June 2010 in relation to Home Department what recent representations she has offences of trafficking for sexual exploitation there have received on the application process for tourist visas to been: the UK for those living in China. [17911] 558 arrests; Damian Green: UK Border Agency officials are in 294 people charged and prosecuted for trafficking and or other regular contact with corporate partners in the tourist related offences; and industry regarding the processing of UK tourist visa 233 convictions comprising 139 for human trafficking and 94 applications in various countries, including China. The for other offences including rape, brothel management and Agency remains committed to providing a visa service money laundering. that not only assists UK plc by encouraging genuine As at the end of June 2010 there were 61 cases that visitors, students and business people to come to the were at various stages of the criminal justice system. UK, but also prevents those who seek to abuse our The figures have been supplied by the UK Human immigration laws or pose a criminal or security risk Trafficking Centre. from reaching the country. The Agency aims to process 90% of general (tourist) Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for the visit visas within 15 working days and is currently Home Department how many people have been (a) meeting this target in China. For example, 92% of arrested, (b) charged, (c) prosecuted and (d) convicted general visit visa applications lodged at the Beijing visa in relation to offences related to slavery, servitude or application centre and concluded in September this forced or compulsory labour under section 71 of the year were resolved within 15 working days, with 60% Coroners and Justice Act 2009. [17977] being resolved within 10-days. Foreign Workers Damian Green: The information requested is not available. Mr Clappison: To ask the Secretary of State for the The arrests collection held by the Home Office covers Home Department pursuant to the answer of 7 July arrests for recorded crime (notifiable offences) only, 2010, Official Report, column 287W,on foreign workers, broken down at a main offence group level, covering how many work permit intracompany transfers have categories such as violence against the person and robbery. been granted to each of the three companies referred to From these centrally reported categories it is not possible in the answer in each year since the inception of the to separately identify individual offences. intracompany transfer scheme. [17453] Section 71 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 was Damian Green: The requested information is set out implemented on 6 April 2010. The most recently available in the following table. data on court proceedings (held by the Ministry of Justice) is 2008. Work permit intra company transfers approvals 1999-2008 By top three largest employer user of work permits Court data for 2010 will be available in 2011. Number Number Number Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for the 1999 260 0 0 Home Department how many people have been (a) 2000 1,170 5 0 arrested, (b) charged, (c) prosecuted and (d) convicted 2001 1,350 0 65 in respect of offences of trafficking under section 31 of 2002 1,900 5 330 the UK Border Act 2007 committed (i) in and (ii) 2003 2,165 610 225 outside the UK. [17978] 2004 3,050 1,810 870 2005 2,970 2,450 905 Damian Green: None. 2006 3,825 2,755 1,235 2007 3,910 2,890 2,910 Section 31 of the Borders Act 2007 does not create a 2008 4,470 2,385 3,065 separate offence of trafficking but amends the offences Notes: contained within existing legislation which criminalises 1. Figures are rounded to nearest 5. human trafficking. 2. The figures quoted are not provided under National Statistics protocols and have been derived from local management information and are therefore provisional and subject to change. Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for the Caveats: Home Department how many people have been (a) 1. The figures do not equate to the number of individual nationals who were granted permits because they include those applications approved to extend or arrested, (b) charged, (c) prosecuted and (d) convicted amend an existing permit or where the individual has moved to another job in respect of offences of trafficking for labour and other with a different employer. Not all those who were granted a permit took up the exploitation under section 4 of the Asylum and Immigration job and some may have been refused entry clearance or further leave to remain. 2. Information is only available up until 2008 as the scheme closed at the end (Treatment of Claimants) Act 2004 committed (i) in of 2008. and (ii) outside the UK. [17979] 757W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 758W

Damian Green: As of 30 June 2010 in relation to Damian Green [holding answer 18 October 2010]: offences of trafficking for labour exploitation there The UK Border Agency policy is that all passengers have been: passing through UK immigration control have their 270 arrests; travel documents checked and scanned on entry, and 86 people charged and prosecuted for trafficking and or other departure controls are undertaken on a risk-assessed related offences; and intelligence-led basis. 26 convictions comprising 10 for human trafficking and 16 for This is underpinned by legislation—under Paragraph 2 other offences. (1) of Schedule 2 to the Immigration Act 1971, an At the end of June there were 50 cases at various immigration officer may examine any persons who have stages of the criminal justice system. arrived in the United Kingdom for the purpose of The figures have been supplied by the UK Human determining whether they are a British citizen and, if Trafficking Centre. they are not, whether they may enter the United Kingdom These figures relate to offences within the United without leave and, if they may not, whether they should Kingdom. There has been one conviction of trafficking be granted or refused leave to enter. for forced labour where the victim was trafficked out of Paragraph 3(1) of Schedule 2 permits an immigration the UK. This offence was dealt with under the legislation officer to carry out a similar examination on persons of the receiving country. seeking to embark from the United Kingdom for the purpose of establishing identity, and whether a person Immigration has entered lawfully, or has complied with conditions of any grant of leave, or whether their return to the United Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Kingdom is prohibited or restricted. for the Home Department how many applications for indefinite leave to remain from applicants originally from (a) Afghanistan, (b) Pakistan, (c) Iraq, (d) Prisoners: Foreign Nationals Somalia, (e) Zimbabwe, (f) Turkey and (g) India have been (i) received and (ii) approved in each quarter since May 2005; and if she will make a statement. [17794] Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many foreign prisoners Damian Green: All the data requested have been held on the prison estate have completed their placed in the Library of the House of Commons. sentences but have yet to be deported to their home We have interpreted my hon. Friend’s question to countries; and if she will make a statement. [17793] mean the number of applications for indefinite leave to remain in each quarter and of those, how many were Damian Green: The UK Border Agency and the approved. National Offender Management Service work closely to This is internal management information and is subject ensure that foreign national prisoners (FNPs) are removed to change. This information has not been quality assured from the UK at the earliest opportunity. under National Statistics protocols. In 2009, for an average month, approximately 550 Immigration: Bulgaria foreign national prisoners were detained in prison beyond the end of their custodial sentence while deportation was pursued. Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department pursuant to the answer of 12 October 2010, Official Report, column 303W, on Seasonal Agricultural Workers’ Scheme immigration: Bulgaria, if she will assess the likely effect on levels of immigration of the extension by the government of Bulgaria of passport entitlement to Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home citizens of Ukraine and Belarus. [18181] Department how many work cards were issued under the Seasonal Agricultural Workers’ Scheme in each of Damian Green: The UK Border Agency will continue the last five years. [18396] to monitor closely any significant changes in the numbers of Bulgarians coming to the UK. During 2011 there will be an assessment of the available evidence of levels Damian Green: The following table shows both the and impacts of migration to the UK by citizens of quota for each of the last five years and the number of Romania and Bulgaria, to inform a decision on whether work cards issued to workers. transitional controls on their access to work should be For the current year, all 21,250 cards have been extended for a further two years on the grounds that to allocated to operators according to a pre-agreed share. do otherwise would risk a serious disturbance to the Not all cards have been issued to workers at the time of labour market. writing.

Passports Quota Cards issued to workers Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State 2006 16,250 16,088 for the Home Department what requirement there is for 2007 16,250 16,216 British passport holders to have their passports checked 2008 16,250 16,250 and scanned on (a) leaving and (b) entering the UK; 2009 21,250 21,248 and if she will make a statement. [17717] 20101 21,250 21,151 759W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 760W

Funeral Payments: Kilmarnock Quota Cards issued to workers Total 91,250 90,953 Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 Cards issued to end September 2010. Work and Pensions (1) how many claimants in Note: Kilmarnock and Loudoun constituency have received The number of work cards issued is not representative of the number of individuals working in the UK under the Seasonal Agricultural funeral payments in each of the last five years; [17123] Workers Scheme. Not all cards allocated are used, and some cards are (2) what estimate he made of the monetary value of issued as replacements for lost or spoiled cards. funeral payments made to claimants in Kilmarnock Source: This information has been provided from local management information and Loudoun constituency in each of the last five and is not a National Statistic. years. [17124] Steve Webb: The information requested is not available. The number of funeral payment awards and their monetary INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT value are available by Government Office Region or India: Pesticides Jobcentre Plus Social Fund budget area only, not by constituency. Because of boundary changes to the areas Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for used to administer funeral payments, comparable data International Development what discussions he has over the last five years is not available at Jobcentre Plus had with the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation Social Fund budget area level for Scotland. The following and Skills, on the sale of pesticides by UK companies to table gives information for the Government Office Region cotton farmers in India. [17964] of Scotland. Mr O’Brien: The Secretary of State for International Funeral payments in Scotland Development has not had any discussions with the Number of awards Expenditure (£ million) Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, 2005-06 6,400 6.8 on the sale of pesticides by UK companies to cotton 2006-07 6,100 6.8 farmers in India. 2007-08 6,000 6.8 2008-09 5,800 6.7 WORK AND PENSIONS 2009-10 5,600 6.5 Carer’s Allowance Note: The number of awards has been rounded to the nearest 100 and expenditure to the nearest £0.1 million. Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Source: Work and Pensions how many (a) women and (b) men Department for Work and Pensions Social Fund Policy, Budget and from each age group are in receipt of carer’s allowance. Management Information System [15846] Income Support: Eligibility Maria Miller: The requested information is shown in the following table: Mr Spencer: To ask the Secretary of State for Work People in receipt of carer’s allowance in Great Britain and abroad and Pensions if he will bring forward proposals to —by age group: February 2010 ensure that people in receipt of income support who are entering full-time education continue to receive Age of claimant Male Female benefits up to the date their course begins. [17546] Total 142,860 388,030 Maria Miller: People in receipt of income support are able to receive benefit up to the date at which they start Unknown age * 10 attending or undertaking their course of study. After Under 18 580 890 this date financial support is the responsibility of the 18-24 7,920 15,140 education system. Students who find themselves in financial 25-29 6,570 25,830 hardship, for example if their student loan is delayed, 30-34 8,040 39,470 can apply to their university or college for financial 35-39 12,420 57,420 assistance from the discretionary Access to Learning 40-44 17,290 64,840 Fund. 45-49 19,600 58,080 50-54 19,640 49,890 Independent Living Fund 55-59 21,500 48,790 60-64 25,920 12,880 Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for 65 and over 3,390 14,790 Work and Pensions whether an equality impact assessment “*” Denotes nil or negligible. will be made in respect of proposed changes to the Notes: 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. Independent Living Fund. [17098] 2. These figures are published at: http://83.244.183.180/100pc/tabtool.html Maria Miller: The long-term future of the Independent 3. Totals show the number of people in receipt of an allowance and Living Fund is being considered as part of the forthcoming excludes people with entitlement where the payment has been suspended, spending review and no decisions have yet been made. for example if they are in hospital. Source: However, I can confirm that should changes be made to DWP Information Directorate Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study the operation of the Independent Living Fund, equality 100% data impact assessments will be carried out, as appropriate. 761W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 762W

Jobcentre Plus Steve Webb: DWP is developing the capacity of community sector financial service providers such as Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Work credit unions so that people on low incomes, traditionally and Pensions what recent assessment he has made of not well served by mainstream financial institutions, the effectiveness of outreach services offered by have access to savings products, affordable credit and Jobcentre Plus. [17192] basic banking. By August 2010 the DWP Growth Fund had served over 300,000 people, of whom around 65% Chris Grayling: The administration of Jobcentre Plus had been helped to open a bank or savings account. is a matter for the chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, DWP Financial Inclusion Champions are also working Darra Singh. I have asked him to provide the hon. with local authorities, social landlords and the community Member with the information requested. sector to encourage people to access these financial services. Letter from Darra Singh, dated October 2010: The Government are also committed to introducing a The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question asking what recent assessment has been made of the effectiveness new duty on employers to automatically enrol eligible of the outreach services offered by Jobcentre Plus. This is something jobholders into workplace pension schemes to address that falls within the responsibilities delegated to me as Chief pension undersaving. Evidence suggests that around Executive of Jobcentre Plus. seven million people are currently not saving enough to Jobcentre Plus currently provides a variety of outreach services deliver the income they are likely to want or expect in at around 1500 locations right across the country. We recognise retirement and a high proportion of those are low to the potential of these services to meet the needs of customers and moderate earners. communities and to reach the most disadvantaged and vulnerable in society. These outreach services complement our core services Motability delivered through other channels. Outreach schemes take a number of different forms. Among Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for them are: outreach in local authority and community centres, Work and Pensions what recent assessment he has providing ease of access to advice and support; prison outreach, which provides specific support to prisoners as part of their made of the appropriateness of the medical criteria for preparation for release; and outreach at school gates, children’s eligibility for the Motability scheme. [17670] centres and colleges. Much of this outreach work is by its nature local. However, national initiatives are evaluated centrally. For Maria Miller: Eligibility for the Motability scheme is example, in 2008 the Work-Focused Services in Children’s Centres dependent on a person being entitled to the higher rate pilot was set up, under which Jobcentre Plus Advisers are co-located mobility component of disability living allowance or full-time in children’s centres and provide enhanced packages of the War Pensioners’ Mobility Supplement. Entitlement support. An evaluation is testing the effect of this model on is not determined by medical criteria but by the extent parents’ preparation for (and movement into) work, as well as multi-agency working. Interim findings show that parents welcome to which a person’s disability gives rise to mobility accessing work-focused services in the children’s centre, particularly difficulties. This is consistent with Motability’s objective in comparison to the local Jobcentre Plus office. This work is of helping severely disabled people with personal mobility ongoing and the final evaluation report will be available in needs. The Government announced in the June Emergency September 2011. Budget that it would reform disability living allowance In Autumn 2009 Jobcentre Plus put in place community outreach and will continue to work closely with disabled people, teams in three locations to work with the individuals and households voluntary organisations and medical experts to develop that faced the most disadvantages. Working closely with social a new independent and objective assessment of need. housing providers and other partner organisations, Jobcentre Plus advisers are engaging with jobless residents, helping them National Insurance: Costs access the support they need to address multiple disadvantages. They are helping people who had previously considered themselves to be outside the labour market. In August 2010 the initiative was Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and extended to a further 13 social housing estates across England, Pensions what estimate he has made of the annual Wales and Scotland. savings in expenditure achieved by distributing national We intend to produce a comprehensive evaluation of the insurance numbers by letter in each of the next five project that focuses not only on job outcomes and engagements years, as submitted through the Spending Challenge but also covers the specific barriers to employment that have been website as part of the process for the Comprehensive overcome, social benefits, the localism approach and the value of Spending Review. [16694] partnership working. This evaluation is ongoing; the timescale for publishing the report will be dependent on decisions made about the project following the Spending Review. Mr Gauke: I have been asked to reply. For the future, I see outreach as an important way of delivering From 2011, HMRC will issue national insurance our services. We will continue to work with partners at a local numbers to people by letter rather than providing a level to establish new and innovative ways of sharing premises, plastic card, saving the Government up to £1 million facilitate the provision of more cohesive local services, promote a year in upfront costs. From October 2010, where a our services to a wider customer base and potentially reduce replacement card is requested, a letter will be sent overall Government estate costs. instead of a plastic card, saving £50,000 in 2010-11. I hope this information is helpful. Pensioners: Wales Low Incomes: Personal Savings Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for and Pensions how many people in each Parliamentary Work and Pensions what steps his Department is taking constituency in North Wales received (a) pension credit, to encourage saving among low-income households. (b) winter fuel allowance and (c) disability living allowance [17571] in each of the last five years. [16999] 763W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 764W

Steve Webb: The information is in the tables.

Pension credit caseload time series, number of beneficiaries, North Wales Parliamentary Parliamentary constituency May constituency May 2010 February 2010 2005 February 2009 February 2008 February 2007 February 2006

Aberconwy 3,960 Alyn and Deeside 4,250 4,230 4,170 4,190 Alyn and Deeside 4,310 Caernarfon 4,520 4,480 4,670 4,650 Arfon 3,800 Clwyd South 4,990 4,950 4,930 4,880 Clwyd South 4,880 Clwyd West 5,690 5,670 5,680 5,520 Clwyd West 5,830 Conwy 4,720 4,680 4,750 4,730 Delyn 4,500 Delyn 4,510 4,450 4,450 4,370 Dwyfor Meirionnydd 4,760 Meirionnydd Nant 3,180 3,130 3,120 3,070 Conwy Vale of Clwyd 6,370 Vale of Clwyd 6,270 6,270 6,210 6,030 Wrexham 4,410 Wrexham 4,430 4,370 4,370 4,380 Yns Mon 5,130 Yns Mon 5,150 5,110 5,090 5,050 Notes: 1. Caseload figures are rounded to the nearest 10. 2. Household recipients are those people who claim pension credit either for themselves or on behalf of themselves and a partner. Beneficiaries are the number of claimants in addition to the number of partners for whom they are claiming. 3. Constituencies used for February 2010 are for the Westminster Parliament of May 2010. Prior to this, the Constituencies used are for May 2005. Source: DWP Information Directorate: Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study 100% data. Winter fuel payment caseload time series, North Wales Parliamentary constituency(2005) 2009-10 2008-09 2007-08 2006-07 2005-06

Alyn and Deeside 17,580 17,090 16,550 15,940 15,530 Caernarfon 15,470 15,320 14,980 14,600 14,370 Clwyd South 16,370 16,020 15,500 15,010 14,690 Clwyd West 20,110 19,850 19,490 19,030 18,830 Conwy 18,190 17,970 17,710 17,360 17,120 Delyn 16,850 16,360 15,820 15,200 14,850 Meirionnydd Nant Conwy 12,200 11,970 11,760 11,450 11,330 Vale of Clwyd 18,450 18,150 17,750 17,260 17,120 Wrexham 15,110 14,710 14,350 13,800 13,590 Yns Mon 18,630 18,330 17,850 17,410 17,030 Notes: 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. 2. Parliamentary constituency boundaries are as for the Westminster Parliament of May 2005. 3. DWP are currently working on producing 2009-10 figures for the May 2010 parliamentary constituencies. Source: DWP Information Directorate 100% data. Disability living allowance caseload time series, number of claimants, North Wales Parliamentary Parliamentary constituency May constituency May 2010 February 2010 2005 February 2009 February 2008 February 2007 February 2006

Aberconwy 3,350 Alyn and Deeside 4,550 4,410 4,240 4,180 Alyn and Deeside 5,250 Caernarfon 3,500 3,500 3,490 3,480 Arfon 3,550 Clwyd South 5,280 5,210 5,070 4,940 Clwyd South 5,220 Clwyd West 4,960 4,860 4,710 4,630 Clwyd West 5,140 Conwy 4,160 4,100 4,050 4,010 Delyn 4,870 Delyn 4,850 4,720 4,630 4,590 Dwyfor Meirionnydd 3,130 Meirionnydd Nant 2,260 2,190 2,130 2,110 Conwy Vale of Clwyd 6,790 Vale of Clwyd 6,570 6,460 6,290 6,170 Wrexham 5,120 Wrexham 5,110 4,990 4,950 4,830 Yns Mon 4,640 Yns Mon 4,630 4,610 4,570 4,520 Notes: 1. Caseload figures are rounded to the nearest 10. 2. Figures show the number of people in receipt of an allowance, and exclude people with entitlement where the payment has been suspended, for example if they are in hospital. 3. Constituencies used for February 2010 are for the Westminster Parliament of May 2010. Prior to this, the constituencies used are for May 2005. Source: DWP Information Directorate: Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study 100% data. 765W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 766W

Social Security Benefits: Disability Social Security Benefits: Fraud

Mr Charles Walker: To ask the Secretary of State for Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions for what reasons his Department Work and Pensions how many persons suspected of refers to individuals claiming employment and support offences related to benefit fraud were (a) arrested, (b) allowance and other incapacity benefits as customers; prosecuted and (c) convicted in each of the last 24 months. and if he will make a statement. [16866] [17401]

Maria Miller: The Department uses the term ‘customer’ Chris Grayling: Information on the total number of to reinforce the importance of its relationship with the people suspected of offences relating to benefit fraud individuals claiming all types of benefits including, that were arrested in each of the last 24 months is not employment and support allowance and other incapacity available. benefits. Information is available on the number of people The Department for Work and Pensions’ work to prosecuted and convicted following arrest in each of the develop and implement a 21st century welfare system is last two financial years, as follows: rooted in a professional, customer-focussed relationship, and it is important that the language we use reflects this. Number prosecuted Research with customers, including those claiming following arrest Number convicted incapacity benefits, indicates that customer-focused language 2008-09 580 435 is important—as reflected in the Department’s Customer 2009-10 424 395 Charter.

Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what recent assessment his Department and Pensions how many people waiting trial for offences has made of the ease with which people with disabilities relating to benefit fraud have absconded in each of the can complete application forms for disability benefits. last five years. [17443] [17602] Chris Grayling: Information on the number of people Maria Miller: As part of our consultation arrangements, waiting trial for offences relating to benefit fraud that Pension Disability and Carers Service (PDCS) co-ordinates have absconded in each of the last five years is not the PDCS Advisory Forum, membership of which available. comprises of 22 organisations that collectively represent The Department seeks an arrest warrant in all a broad range of our customers. PDCS routinely consults circumstances in which a defendant fails to attend a with the Advisory Forum on how all our claim forms hearing or trial without an explanation acceptable to can be improved, which includes Disability Living the court. Allowance (DLA), Attendance Allowance (AA) and On 14 October 2010, the Department held 550 warrant Carers Allowance (CA) forms. A new child DLA claim cases. form has been developed in partnership with voluntary organisations including the National Autistic Society, Social Security Benefits: Haematological Cancer National Deaf Children’s Society, Citizens Advice and the Family Fund. This is currently being tested but early feedback from customer and children’s organisations Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State has been positive. Additionally, to take account of a for Work and Pensions what financial support a patient new legislative provision where the Higher Rate Mobility with a poor diagnosis of haematological cancer Component can be claimed from April 2011 by certain receives from his Department. [17745] severely visually impaired customers, PDCS are developing a new DLA Adult claim form in partnership with Royal Maria Miller: There are a range of benefits available National Institute for the Blind, Action for Blind People, from the Department to help support people with life Citizens Advice and representatives from local authorities. limiting conditions and for disabled people, including It is expected that the new DLA Adult form will be disability living allowance (DLA) or attendance allowance available from February 2011. (AA), employment and support allowance (ESA) as In addition, questions about the ease with which well as housing benefit. An award of DLA can also give disabled customers can complete application forms for rise to a disability premium on out of work benefits Disability Living Allowance and Attendance Allowance such as income support and job seekers allowance. have been included in the Customer Satisfaction Monitor A person who has a diagnosis of cancer, and has care (a customer survey of 6,000 PDCS customers) that has and/or mobility needs arising from their disability can been commissioned by the Pension Disability and Carers claim DLA/AA under the normal rules. There are also Service. The results from the first year of this survey are special rules which apply to people who are terminally currently being assessed ahead of external publication ill and not expected to live for longer than six months. in early 2011. Individuals with such diagnosis are automatically awarded The Chancellor announced in the Emergency Budget the highest rate of the care component of disability that the Government will introduce a new, objective living allowance, even if, at the time of the claim, they assessment for DLA from 2013-14. We will consider, as have no pre-existing care needs arising from their condition. part of these reforms, how we can reduce the burden of Similar fast track arrangements exist with employment long claim forms for applicants. and support allowance. 767W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 768W

Social Security Benefits: Visual Impairment Winter Fuel Payments: British Nationals Abroad

Nicky Morgan: To ask the Secretary of State for Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State Work and Pensions what estimate he made of the for Work and Pensions what the monetary value was of number of new (a) incapacity benefit and (b) employment winter fuel payments to former UK residents living and support allowance claimants in the latest year for abroad in the most recent year for which information is which figures are available who are blind or have partial available; and if he will make a statement. [17751] sight loss as a result of illness. [16920] Steve Webb: In 2009-10 we made 70,880 winter fuel payments to people living in the European economic Maria Miller: The information requested is not available area and Switzerland at a cost of around £15 million. in the format requested. This represents less than 1% of the total winter fuel However, we do have information regarding the number payments made in that year. of employment and support allowance customers who Source: made a claim on the grounds of diseases of the eye and DWP Information Directorate 100% data. adnexa. From October 2008 to November 2009, 3,500 customers made a claim for employment and support Winter Fuel Payments: West Midlands allowance on this basis. This information is available in Annex C of the Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Work publication ‘Employment and Support Allowance: Work and Pensions how many people received winter fuel capability Assessment by Health Condition and Functional allowance in (a) Sandwell Metropolitan Borough Council Impairment: official statistics’. This can be found at: and (b) Warley constituency in the latest period for which figures are available. [17565] http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/esa_wca/ WCA_by_Health_Condition_and_Functional_Impairment.pdf Steve Webb: The information is available in the Between November 2008 and November 2009, 300 documents winter fuel payment recipients 2009-10 by customers made a claim for incapacity benefit on the local authority and gender (All) and winter fuel payment grounds of diseases of the eye and adnexa. recipients 2009-10 by parliamentary constituencies and gender (All). These are available in the Commons Library and on the internet at: Travel to Interview Scheme http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=wfp

Mr Burley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people participated in the CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT travel to interview scheme in each of the last five months; and what assessment he has made of the Empty Property: Land effectiveness of that scheme. [16852] Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Chris Grayling: The administration of Jobcentre Plus Olympics, Media and Sport what his most recent estimate is a matter for the chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, is of the monetary value of each vacant (a) building Darra Singh. I have asked him to provide my hon. and (b) parcel of land leased by his Department in each Friend with the information requested. region. [18206] Letter from Darra Singh: John Penrose: The Department currently pays a rental The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your questions value of £850,447 +VAT per annum for vacant space, at asking how many people participated in the Travel to Interview 2-4 Cockspur Street, that became available on 29 March Scheme in each of the last five months; and what assessment he 2010. has made of the effectiveness of that scheme. This is something that falls within the responsibilities delegated to me as Chief The Department does not lease any parcels of land. Executive of Jobcentre Plus. Horserace Totalisator Board The Travel to Interview Scheme helps customers compete for appropriate jobs outside their local travel to work area by providing help with travel costs for attending interviews. In deciding the Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for appropriateness of an award, advisers will take into account a Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what timetable he number of factors, which include making sure that the customer has set for the sale of the Horserace Totalisator Board. is aware of and is applying for jobs locally, the customer’s ability [18179] to pay their own travel expenses, and how realistic and achievable the job in question is. John Penrose: My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of Turning to your specific question about the number of people the Exchequer confirmed in the Budget on 22 June that participating in the scheme in each of the last five months, we do the Government will, over the next 12 months, resolve not routinely gather this information and to do so would be the future of the Tote in a way that secures value for the disproportionately expensive. taxpayer while recognising the support the Tote currently In terms of effectiveness, advisers and customers tell us the provides the racing industry. scheme is helpful and popular, but it is difficult to assess the A variety of possible approaches are being discussed success in terms of job outcomes. This is because the scheme aims to help people compete for appropriate jobs by enabling their with different stakeholders, and the Government will attendance at interviews that would otherwise be out of reach. continue to talk to all parties with an interest in the Tote Once at interview the jobseeker is, of course, in competition with during that process. We will announce which structure other applicants. has been agreed as soon as possible. 769W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 770W

News Corporation require further investigation. I have had no discussions with the Secretary of State for Education on the effect Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for of a listing decision. The list is a register which recognises Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what meetings (a) the special interest of buildings. In choosing buildings he and (b) Ministers in his Department have had with for addition to the list I cannot consider any factors executives of (i) News International Limited and (ii) other than their architectural or historic interest. News Corporation since their appointment. [16717]

Mr Vaizey: Since being appointed, the Secretary of State formally met James Murdoch of News International BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Limited on 28 June, and I formally met Rebekah Brooks Departmental Public Relations of News Corporation on 12 July.

Olympic Games 2012: Ceramics Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what the monetary value was of Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for (a) public opinion research and (b) public relations Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) how many UK contracts awarded by his Department in each of the last ceramic manufacturers have been awarded contracts by five years in each (A) nation and (B) region of the UK. his Department to produce ceramic ware for the [12467] London 2012 Olympic Games; [17787] Mr Davey: The total spent on publicity via the Central (2) whether contractual requirements have been placed Office of Information (COI) and directly with public on UK ceramic manufacturers awarded contracts by his relations agencies in the last five financial years is: Department for the London 2012 Olympic Games to ensure that they manufacture ware in the UK rather Total amount (£) than import ware for decoration and repackaging in the UK. [17788] 2005/06 DTI Campaigns Consumer Direct PR—freelance 32,694 Hugh Robertson [holding answer 18 October 2010]: contract The Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) Consumer Direct PR October 57,447 has not directly awarded any contracts to UK ceramic 2005 to March 2006 manufacturers for the London 2012 Olympic Games. Consumer Direct PR—MP 6,963 Event As a non-departmental public body (NDPB) of DCMS, Consumer Direct—appointment 174,640 the Olympic Delivery Authority (ODA) is responsible of PR agency for delivering the permanent venues and infrastructure DTI Renewable Energy PR 137,080 for the Games, and contracts to ceramic manufacturers 2005/06 have been awarded to achieve this. The numbers and PR support for ACAS DVD 3,645 contractual requirements of these contracts are not SBS Enterprising Britain PR 76,240 currently held by the ODA as they have been awarded SBS Interim PR activity 105,786 further down the supply chain by the tier one contractors Total 2005/06 594,495 and not by the ODA.

The London Organising Committee of the Olympic 2006/07 DTI Campaigns and Paralympic Games (LOCOG) is responsible for the official London 2012 merchandising and licensing Business Link PR 2006/07 179,113 programme, which helps to raise LOCOG’s £2 billion DTI Gap Analysis 9,071 privately-financed budget to stage the Games. Earlier DTI Renewable Energy PR 131,582 2006/07 this year, LOCOG appointed Waterford Crystal, Wedgewood and Royal Doulton as its ceramic and SBS Enterprising Britain PR 163,642 crystal licensee, to produce London 2012 commemorative Total 2006/07 483,408 and souvenir merchandise. Beyond this, LOCOG has no major requirement for ceramics procurement. 2007/08 DTI/BERR Campaigns Enterprising Britain 172,630.27 Schools: Sydenham Renewable energy 109,326.38 Employing People 30,030 Jim Dowd: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Queen’s Awards 17,254.61 Olympics, Media and Sport when he expects to make a Fireworks safety 15,000 decision on the recommendation of English Heritage Consumer Protection 73,000 to list parts of the structure of Sydenham School; and Regulations what discussions he has had with the Secretary of State Total 2007/08 417,232.26 for Education on the effect of this decision on the implementation of the Building Schools for the Future 2008/09 BERR Campaigns project at that school. [18123] Employing People 165,596.25 Consumer Protection 112,142.03 John Penrose: The evidence in relation to Sydenham Regulations School is being assessed and I expect to make a decision Flexible working 24,733.63 within the next six weeks. However, the process may Queen’s Awards 19,875 take longer if additional scrutiny reveals issues that 771W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 772W

Total amount (£) Amount (£)

Renewable Energy 2,506.54 Informal Ault Learning 40,000 Total 2008/09 BERR 324,853.45 mapping Evaluation of Adult Learners 14,750 Week helpline 2008 2008/09 DIUS Campaigns Attitudes to Higher Education 11,390 Student Finance and 271,610.57 Consumer Rights omnibus 29,900 Employability research Science (So What? So 225,000 Consumer Rights creative 12,000 Everything) development FE Colleges Week 199,760.31 Doorstep selling consumer and 22,800 Climate Change 49,130 business research Academic Freedom Debates 115,337.50 Employment Guidance 178,750 Total 2008/09 DIUS 860,838.38 administrative burdens research Employment Guidance tracking 79,200 2009/10 BIS campaigns DIUS Business users web 5,500 (including BERR and DIUS) research Pay and Work Rights 90,000 Higher Education brand and 59,840 student finance Family Rights (paternity) 36,000 Act on CO2 Students omnibus 5,550 Consumer Tipping Awareness 31,000 Act on CO2 Students omnibus 9,140 Employing People 219,000 qualitative research Student Finance and 146,460.86 Student Finance creative 42,950 Employability research Science (So What? So 738,956 Student Finance tracking 136,100 Everything) Student Support—customer 64,700 Iawards 124,794.49 satisfaction—England Employee Engagement 465,862.97 Employing People creative 12,500 Further Education Colleges 170,852.20 testing Week Employing People stakeholder 12,000 Climate Change 11,276 analysis Media Audit 4,000 National Minimum Wage 54,100 Informal Adult Learning 208,949 tracking 2008/9 Academic Freedom Debates 35,896.50 Renewable energy consultation 67,000 Total 2009/10 2,283,048.02 analysis Nuclear Stakeholder report 30,000 The total spent on public surveys procured through Science branding line 27,610 the Central Office of Information (COI) is: Directgov Education and 8,600 Learning Franchise Vulnerable Workers campaign 17,800 Amount (£) creative development 2005/06 DTI Vulnerable Workers campaign 55,150 tracking Consumer Direct 181,650 Vulnerable workers hotline 50,050 Renewable energy 23,375 proposition development Total 205,025 Evaluation of public 15,000 deliberative dialogue 2006/07 DTI Social Media 28,335 Renewable energy 14,000 Internships 9,600 Public attitudes to science 29,800 Higher Education and 85,000 research Apprenticeships Total 43,800 Attitudes to Skills Accounts 50,850 Stakeholder research 65,580 2007/08 DTI/BERR Total 1,370,522 Omnibus on nuclear attitudes 7,970 Consumer Protection 34,700 2009/10 BERR and DIUS Public attitudes to science 68,100 Consumer Rights tracking study 32,100 research Summary report on Consumer 400 Pregnancy leaflet awareness 17,100 Rights omnibus Renewable energy 14,600 Public perception tracking 2009 19,550 Total 142,470 Public perceptions tracker 38,475 Vulnerable Workers helpline 25,550 2008/09 BERR and DIUS campaign pitch research Informal Adult Learning 59,357 Vulnerable Workers helpline 75,400 deliberative tracking Informal Adult Learning 9,420 Vulnerable workers helpline 25,750 consultation analysis creative development research 773W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 774W

Mr Willetts: Information on the number of enrolments Amount (£) in higher education institutions (HEIs) in England is Skills Accounts 36,600 collected by the Higher Education Statistics Agency Graduate Internship campaign 11,525 (HESA). Final figures on enrolments in England and tracker the North East in 2009/10 will not be available until Graduate Communications 49,300 January 2011. Information for 2008/09 is given in the campaign following table: Vehicle Scrappage scheme 48,700 UK and EU domiciled enrolments in HEIs in England and the North Employment Law advice 117,000 East 2008/09 Graduate Talent Pool registered 32,850 England North East employer research Science (So What? So 19,500 Postgraduate 333,845 16,255 Everything) campaign test Undergraduate 1,460,095 83,965 Consumer Tipping Awareness 5,785 Total 1,793,945 100,220 omnibus Note: Stakeholder surveys 75,250 Figures are rounded to the nearest five. Small Medium Enterprises 56,800 Source: stakeholder research HESA Total 670,535 In 2008-09 the Government funded 1,160,000 full-time Public relations contracts were awarded for national equivalent places and an additional 10,000 additional campaigns in England and Wales and cannot be broken student numbers in 2009-10. The coalition Government down by region or city. Detailed information regarding are funding 1,190,000 full-time equivalent places in the coverage of public opinion surveys is not readily 2010-11, including the 10,000 places announced as part available as the coverage of most of these surveys was of the University Modernisation Fund. No funding not specific to any region. decisions have been made for 2011-12; these will take place following the Spending Review. Planned funded EU Grants and Loans student numbers are not available at a regional level.

Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for Higher Education: Research Business, Innovation and Skills how many cases were brought by the European Commission in respect of financial corrections and alleged irregularities in the Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for disbursement of funds from the European Regional Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment Development Fund for 2000 to 2006; how many such he has made of the effectiveness of bibliometric cases are still open; and how many such cases related to measures in analysing the research performance of disputes over regulations on publicity for funding. universities. [17897] [17709]

Mr Prisk: In the 2000-06 programme perspective, Mr Willetts: While it is acknowledged to be imperfect, three cases have been brought against UK authorities bibliometric evidence is an important indicator of by the European Commission in respect of alleged universities’ research performance, and is well correlated, irregular expenditure in ERDF programmes. None of albeit imperfectly, with the quality of the research assessed. these cases involved a dispute over the publicity regulations. Underpinning the usefulness of bibliometric data are its One case is still open and under discussion between the characteristics of being readily available and quantifiable, UK authorities concerned and the European Commission. which allows for timely and objective measurement and facilitates comparisons of national and international research performance. Further Education BIS undertakes a regular assessment of the Performance Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, of the UK Research Base based upon Bibliometrics. Innovation and Skills how many general further education The most recent of which, “The International Comparative colleges will be affected by the decision to reclassify Performance of the UK Research Base”, was published in 2009: them as a part of central Government. [18239] http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/corporate/migratedD/ Mr Hayes: There are 251 further education colleges, publications/I/ICPRUK09v1_4 incorporated under the Further and Higher Education Highlights from this assessment revealed that the UK Act 1992, which are affected by the Office of National maintains a remarkably strong research base, remaining Statistics’ decision to classify them as central Government the most productive country in the G8 as measured by for the purpose of the national accounts. citations per pound spent and second only to the USA in its share of highly cited papers. Higher Education: Admissions According to this report, bibliometrics have an important role in indexing research performance—despite suffering Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for from some limitations, and while: Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has ‘the defects of bibliometric evidence are familiar’ ... made of the number of student places in universities in (a) England and (b) the North East in academic years ‘bibliometrics are likely to be of increasing importance’ (i) 2009-10, (ii) 2010-11 and (iii) 2011-12. [17750] in the next few years. 775W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 776W

Local Enterprise Partnerships: Regional Development Regulation Agencies Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills when he expects his Business, Innovation and Skills what representations he Department’s review of new regulations to be concluded; has received from trade unions on the transfer to local and if he will make a statement. [17795] enterprise partnerships of employees from regional development agencies. [17968] Mr Prisk: In the Budget the Government announced plans for reducing the regulatory burdens on business, Mr Prisk: I have received a letter, dated 15 September, including the introduction of a one-in-one out system from the Public and Commercial Services Union regarding for new regulations and a fundamental review of all regional co-ordination of strategy for economic regeneration regulation inherited from the previous Government and the matter of future employment opportunities and scheduled for introduction over the coming year. These redundancy arrangements for RDA staff. regulations will not be implemented until they have been reviewed and re-agreed by the Reducing Regulation Cabinet Committee. Medicine: Voluntary Organisations This review is on-going and an announcement will be made once it has been completed. Mrs Glindon: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment his Department Students: Loans has made of the contribution to (a) the economy and (b) university research of funding for medical research Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for from charitable sources since 2005. [17991] Business, Innovation and Skills what percentage of graduates are making repayments on their student loans Mr Willetts: The Government welcome the valuable to the Student Loans Company (a) one, (b) five and contribution from charities to medical research in the (c) 10 years after completing university. [17760] UK. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has not carried out any specific analysis of the Mr Willetts: As student loans mature, increasing contribution of funding for medical research from charitable numbers of borrowers fully repay. For example by April sources to the economy or university research since 2010 39% of the 2000 cohort and 16% of the 2004 2005. However, the Medical Research Council was a cohort had fully repaid. The table shows the proportion sponsor of the document “Medical Research: What’s it of those who remain liable to repay who made repayments worth?” which was published by RAND Europe in during the relevant tax year. Borrowers with fluctuating November 2008 earnings may make repayments in some years and not others, so for example some of those not repaying in the http://www.brunel.ac.uk/385/other/ fifth year after leaving higher education may have made TAP825EconomicBenefitsReportFULLWeb.pdf repayments in previous years. This analysed the economic impact of both public and Borrowers are not required to make repayments when charitable funding. It demonstrated that every pound they are earning less than £15,000 per year. Repayments invested in cardiovascular research over the period of are collected through the tax system, so generally borrowers the study resulted in a benefit to GDP of 39 pence per cannot default. year in perpetuity. Percentage of student loan borrowers making repayments1 Percentage repaying in Percentage repaying in Public Bodies: Engineering Repayment first tax year after fifth tax year after leaving cohort2 leaving higher education higher education

Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, 2000 34 42 Innovation and Skills pursuant to the statement of 2001 37 46 14 October 2010, Official Report, columns 505-06, on 2002 45 59 public bodies reform, whether (a) the Engineering 2003 51 64 Construction Industry Training Board and (b) the 2004 53 66 Construction Industry Training Board will retain its 2005 46 — statutory power to raise training levies on the engineering 2006 46 — industry following transfer to the private sector. [18178] 2007 47 — 2008 51 — Mr Hayes: The coalition Government are committed 1 The table covers borrowers who received loans as English domiciled to review public bodies, with the aim of increasing students studying in the UK or as EU students studying in England. accountability for actions carried out on behalf of the It shows borrowers making repayments in the relevant tax year as a state. For the Industry Training Boards (ITBs) we are percentage of borrowers with an outstanding balance at the start of reviewing the scope for a statutory levy to be operated that tax year. It covers repayments known by SLC at 30 April 2010. 2 Borrowers are placed in a repayment cohort according to when they by a private sector organisation. It is right that Government first became liable to repay, which is in the April after they graduated look at the options for increasing the flexibilities and or otherwise left their course. freedoms under which employers can invest in training. Source: If we cannot find a way of moving ITBs to the private Student Loans Company sector, without compromising their ability to raise a Income contingent loans were introduced in 1998 statutory levy, then we can still explore ways to further and the first repayments were made in 2000. As 2000 is encourage efficiency and flexibility. the first repayment cohort, consistent separate data for 777W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 778W those who left higher education after 10 years is not yet Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for available. Figures relate to student loan borrowers regardless Health whether his Department plans to remove from of whether they are graduates or not. storage blood donated by persons diagnosed with The first two repayment cohorts are atypical as they myalgic encephalomyelitis. [17906] only comprise borrowers on short courses and those who left university before completing their courses. The Anne Milton: There are no plans to screen blood first repayment cohort containing graduates from three already stored in blood banks for the xenotropic murine year courses is the 2002 cohort. leukemia virus-related virus (XMRV)or to remove from storage blood donated by persons diagnosed with myalgic From April 2005 the earnings threshold at which encephalomyelitis. borrowers are required to make repayments was raised from £10,000 to £15,000. This explains the lower percentage A recent study in the United States (of America) repaying in the first year from the 2005 cohort onwards. reported that XMRV has been detected in a number of chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS)/myalgic encephalomyelitis (ME) sufferers. CFS/ME sufferers can currently give blood when they are well. These data have not been HEALTH replicated in Europe. An expert subgroup of National Expert Panel for New and Emerging Infections (NEPNEI) Arthritis met in May 2010, to consider all available evidence about XMRVand conduct a risk assessment. The subgroup Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for concluded that XMRV can infect humans but there is Health what steps his Department plans to take to currently no evidence that it causes human disease and ensure that people with rheumatoid arthritis are given a that on the evidence before the group, no public health personalised care plan; and who will be responsible for action is required at this time. Since the subgroup developing that plan with the patient. [16995] meeting in May there has been no new scientific evidence that would change the conclusions of the subgroup. In Paul Burstow: Personalised care planning aims to put July 2010, the Advisory Committee on the Safety of people at the centre of decisions about their care and Blood, Tissues and Organs (SaBTO), similarly did not should be offered to all people with long-term conditions recommend further measures at present. Both groups including those living with rheumatoid arthritis. Care will continue to monitor the situation. plans should be developed collaboratively with the However, from 1 November 2010, CFS/ME sufferers individual and the health and social care professionals will no longer be able to donate blood. The UK Blood with whom they have regular contact. In most cases Services recognised that exclusion from donation by there will be a lead professional who will initiate the people with ME/CFS needed to be brought in line with process, for example a general practitioner, a practice that from other relapsing conditions for the protection nurse, a specialist nurse, a social care worker or an allied of the donor, and not because of potential infection health professional. Other professionals involved in the risks. person’s care should also be aware that they have a care plan and input as necessary. Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health (1) what recent assessment he has made of what assessment he has made of the implications for regional variations in the usage of treatments approved (a) organ donation and (b) people with myalgic by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence encephalomyelitis (ME) who are undergoing surgery of for rheumatoid arthritis; and if he will make a statement; the ban on people with ME from donating blood. [16996] [17575] (2) what assessment he has made of the implementation of the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Clinical Guideline 79 for rheumatoid arthritis in England. Health what the evidential basis was for his Department’s [17328] decision to cease to accept blood donations from persons diagnosed with myalgic encephalomyelitis; and if he Paul Burstow: The Department has not made any will make a statement. [17905] specific assessment of either regional variations in the availability of treatments for rheumatoid arthritis approved Anne Milton: The change to the United Kingdom by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence Blood Services donor selection guidelines (which comes (NICE) or of the implementation of clinical guideline into force on 1 November 2010) to permanently exclude 79 issued by NICE for rheumatoid arthritis. from blood donation, anyone who reports that they It is the responsibility of national health service have had chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS)/myalgic bodies to implement NICE guidance and NICE publishes encephalomyelitis (ME), is being made purely on the a number of implementation tools alongside its guidance grounds of donor safety, as CFS/ME is a relapsing to help facilitate this. condition. It brings practice for CFS/ME into line with other relapsing conditions or neurological conditions of Blood: Contamination unknown origin, to avoid the potential for blood donation to adversely affect the donor. Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for The change was not made because of a perceived risk Health whether his Department plans to screen blood to recipients of blood from CFS/ME patients and therefore already stored in blood banks for the xenotropic does not affect the safety of organ donations and murine leukemia virus-related virus. [17574] CFS/ME patients undergoing surgery. 779W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 780W

The Advisory Committee on the Safety of Blood, Mr Simon Burns: The information is contained in the Tissues and Organs on the basis of current evidence following tables: does not recommend further measures at present but Monetary value of contracts awarded by the Department to wishes to continue to monitor the situation. management consultancy companies from 7 May 2010 to 22 September 2010 Dementia: Drugs Company Value of contracts (£) Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for Amtec Consulting plc 2,060 Health what recent assessment he has made of progress Gardiner and Theobald 10,480 in achieving his Department’s commitment to reduce Intel 30,250 the prescribing of anti-psychotic drugs to people Inventures Ltd 19,740 diagnosed with dementia by two thirds in two years. KPMG 630,000 [17661] Loughborough University 32,990 Malcolm Hutchinson Associates 4,950 Paul Burstow: Professor Alistair Burns, the National Ltd Clinical Director for Dementia, is leading the work to McKinsey and Co Inc UK 9,000 reduce the use of anti-psychotics in all settings. As a Methods Consulting Ltd 172,911 priority, the NHS Information Centre is undertaking an Moorhouse Consulting 110,000 audit for the Department on the prescribing of anti- Mott MacDonald Ltd 6,875 psychotics for people with dementia. The aim remains PA Consulting Group Ltd 429,360 to achieve overall a two-thirds reduction in the level of PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP 1,675 prescription over a period of two years from establishing Quality Business Management Ltd 170,835 a baseline position. There is emerging evidence from the Quo Imus Ltd 34,630 audit that there has been a reduction in use of these 2020 Delivery 13,000 drugs since last year. These data are being validated. Monetary value of contracts awarded by the Department to Dental Services information technology companies from 7 May 2010 to 22 September 2010 Stephen Gilbert: To ask the Secretary of State for Company Value of contracts (£) Health what steps he plans to take to implement the Ability Net 554 proposals on the engagement of consultants in dental CSC Computer Sciences Ltd 565 public health and dental practice advisers in the Gap Internet Communications 2,048 development of new arrangements for NHS dentistry Oracle 68,040 as referred to in his Department’s White Paper on Parallel Interactive Media 21,900 Equity and excellence: liberating the NHS. [18368] Sapient Ltd 8,128 Mr Simon Burns: The White Paper ‘Equity and SAS Software Ltd 53,420 Excellence: Liberating the NHS’ refers to creation of a Simplisys Ltd 10,311 NHS Commissioning Board and a new public health SPSS (UK) Ltd 5,515 service, to integrate and streamline existing health improvement. The NHS Commissioning Board will Departmental Grants take on responsibility for commissioning national health service primary dental services, while the primary care trusts’ responsibilities for local health improvement will Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State transfer to local authorities. Local authorities will employ for Health what grants his Department has made to the director of public health jointly appointed with the (a) Brook, (b) the fpa and former Family Planning public health service. To discharge their functions and Association, (c) Marie Stopes International, (d) the responsibilities, both the public health service in local British Pregnancy Advisory Service, (e) Education for authorities and dental service commissioners will need Choice and (f) the Terrence Higgins Trust in each of appropriate advice and input from dental public health the last three years; how much grant funding is planned consultants, dental practice advisers and their teams, for each body in the next two years; what the (i) working with local clinicians. monetary value and (ii) purpose of each such grant is; and if he will make a statement. [17858] Departmental Contracts Anne Milton: The Department does not provide grant Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health funding to Marie Stopes International, or the British what the monetary value is of contracts his Department Pregnancy Advisory Service. The amount of grant funding has awarded to each (a) management consultancy and and purpose of each grant for the other organisations (b) IT company since 7 May 2010. [16182] requested is shown in the following table:

Department of Health Section 64/ Third Sector Investment Programme (TSIP) 2009-12

£

Name of organisation Purpose of grant 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-121 2012-131

Brook Section 64 Core (infrastructure 86,000 0000 support) 781W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 782W

Department of Health Section 64/ Third Sector Investment Programme (TSIP) 2009-12 £ Name of organisation Purpose of grant 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-121 2012-131

Brook Third Sector Investment 0 138,006 106,000 84,800 0 Programme Development of Regional Capacity Project fpa Section 64 Core (infrastructure 130,000 0000 support) fpa Third Sector Investment 0 140,000 105,000 70,000 0 Programme Sustainable Futures Project Terrence Higgins Trust Section 64 Core (infrastructure 220,000 0000 support) Terrence Higgins Trust Third Sector Investment 0 154,000 121,000 80,000 0 Programme Sustainable Futures Project Terence Higgins Trust Third Sector Investment 0 0 75,000 75,000 75,000 Programme National HIV Long Term Conditions Project Education for Choice Third Sector Investment 0 27,500 27,500 27,500 0 Programme promoting and supporting a continuum of care around pregnancy pathways for young people, project 1 All awards from April 2011 are subject to the outcome of the spending review.

General Practitioners: Buildings to provide breaks for carers. The money was not ring-fenced and no mechanisms were put in place to ensure that the money was spent on carers. Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what account he plans to take of the (a) age No assessment has been made of the role that the and (b) size of GP-owned premises in his proposals for Carers Centre for Brighton and Hove, or other voluntary the future funding of such premises. [18207] organisations, have in supporting carers.

Mr Simon Burns: Primary care trusts currently have Maternity Services responsibility for managing the delivery of general practitioner services, including taking account of the Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health age, size and suitability of premises from which general what assessment his Department has made of the extent practitioners (GPs) make their services available to patients. to which each strategic health authority has fulfilled the The arrangements for reimbursement of GP premises requirements of its local maternity workforce plan (a) costs are set out in “The NHS Premises Costs Directions in general and (b) in respect of the size of the midwifery 2004”, which has already been placed in the Library. workforce. [17590] Following the establishment of the NHS Commissioning Board, it will take on responsibility for contracting with Anne Milton: Strategic health authorities (SHAs) are GPs and for funding those arrangements under the GP considering the number of maternity staff needed to contract arrangements applying at that time. deliver safe maternity services and extend choice. A national assessment will be made as part of the Health Services: Brighton operating framework assurance process. The following table outlines the midwifery workforce Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for in each SHA for each of the last three years. Health (1) what financial support his Department has Midwives in England provided to (a) Brighton and Hove City Council and Headcount (b) NHS services in Brighton and Hove for the SHA 2007 2008 2009 support of carers in the latest period for which figures are available; [18173] North East 1,287 1,331 1,382 North West 4,001 3,892 3,855 (2) what assessment he has made of the role (a) the Yo rk s a n d 2,446 2,472 2,565 Carers Centre for Brighton and Hove and (b) other Humber voluntary organisations have in supporting carers. East 1,744 1,771 1,877 [18174] Midlands West 2,861 2,850 2,918 Paul Burstow: Brighton and Hove city council received Midlands £1.102 million in 2008-09, £1.167 million in 2009-10 East of 2,406 2,476 2,560 and £1.132 million in 2010-11 for the carers element of England their area based grant. London 4,401 4,785 4,866 South East 1,819 1,915 2,028 The previous Government made £150 million available Coast within primary care trust allocations in 2009-11 (£50 million South 1,677 1,735 1,783 in 2009-10 and £100 million in 2010-11) to enable them Central 783W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 784W

Midwives in England committee is provided by the Health Protection Agency. Headcount A secretariat function will continue to be provided for SHA 2007 2008 2009 the reconstituted committee of experts. South West 2,427 2,437 2,617 John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Source: pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official NHS Information Centre Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, how The following table shows the total number of many staff are employed by the Advisory Committee obstetricians and gynaecologists in each SHA for each on Dangerous Pathogens; how many such staff will be of the last three years. transferred to (a) his Department and (b) new bodies; England how many such staff will be made redundant; and what Headcount estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of redundancy payments for these staff. [18148] SHA 2007 2008 2009

North East 252 270 277 Anne Milton: The Advisory Committee on Dangerous North West 689 731 751 Pathogens does not employ staff, therefore there will be Yo rk s a n d 531 499 528 no redundancies or associated redundancy costs. The Humber secretariat for the committee is provided by the Health East 365 381 406 Protection Agency. A secretariat function will continue Midlands to be provided for the reconstituted committee of experts. West 467 486 519 Midlands Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health East of 433 470 476 pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official England Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, what London 1,087 1,155 1,204 the functions of the Health Protection Agency are; South East 358 371 414 which of these functions are to be retained; and which Coast bodies he proposes to have responsibility for fulfilling South Central 393 427 416 these functions. [18297] South West 408 439 449 Source: Anne Milton: The functions of the Health Protection NHS Information centre Agency are to protect the public from threats to their health from infectious diseases and environmental hazards. Non-departmental Public Bodies All of the Health Protection Agency’s functions will be retained. The Health Protection Agency will be abolished John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for as a statutory organisation and its functions will be Health pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, transferred to the new public health service. Official Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health reform, how many staff are employed by the Human pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official Genetics Commission; how many such staff will be Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, what transferred to (a) his Department and (b) new the functions of the Gene Therapy Advisory Committee bodies; how many such staff will be made redundant; are; which of these functions are to be retained; and and what estimate he has made of the cost to the which bodies he proposes to have responsibility for public purse of redundancy payments for these staff. fulfilling these functions. [18298] [18144] Anne Milton: The Gene Therapy Advisory Committee Anne Milton: The Human Genetics Commission does (GTAC) oversees the ethical conduct of stem cell and not employ staff and therefore there will be no redundancies gene therapy clinical trials in the United Kingdom and or associated redundancy costs. The secretariat for the previously provided advice to Ministers on gene and Human Genetics Commission has been provided by stem cell therapies. departmental officials and staff seconded to the Following the advisory non-departmental public bodies Department. A secretariat function will continue to be (ANDPBs) review it has been decided that GTAC no provided for the reconstituted committee of experts. longer needs to report and provide advice directly to Ministers. The review concluded that its Research Ethics John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Committee statutory functions would be transferred to pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official the National Research Ethics Service. Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, how many staff are employed by the Advisory Committee Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health on Antimicrobial Resistance and Healthcare pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official Associated Infection; how many such staff will be Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, what transferred to (a) his Department and (b) new bodies; the functions of the Independent Advisory Group on how many such staff will be made redundant; and what Sexual Health and HIV are; which of these functions estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of are to be retained; and which bodies he proposes to redundancy payments for these staff. [18147] have responsibility for fulfilling these functions. [18299]

Anne Milton: The Advisory Committee on Antimicrobial Anne Milton: The remit of the Independent Advisory Resistance and Healthcare Associated Infection does Group on Sexual Health and HIV is to provide advice not employ staff, therefore there will be no redundancies and monitor progress on the implementation of the or associated redundancy costs. The secretariat for the National Strategy for Sexual Health and HIV published 785W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 786W in 2001, a copy of which has already been placed in the Hepatitis; how many such staff will be transferred to Library. The group is to be abolished and replaced by a (a) his Department and (b) new bodies; how many stakeholder advisory group on sexual health. This group such staff will be made redundant; and what estimate will provide advice to departmental officials rather than he has made of the cost to the public purse of direct to Ministers. Terms of reference for the group redundancy payments for these staff. [18150] have yet to be agreed. Anne Milton: The Advisory Group on Hepatitis do John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health not employ staff, therefore there will be no redundancies pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official or associated redundancy costs. The secretariat for the Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, (1) committee is provided by the Health Protection Agency. how many staff are employed by the Committee on A secretariat function will continue to be provided for Medical Effects of Air Pollutants; how many such staff the reconstituted committee of experts. will be transferred to (a) his Department and (b) new John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health bodies; how many such staff will be made redundant; pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official and what estimate he has made of the cost to the public Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, how purse of redundancy payments for these staff; [18143] many staff are employed by the Alcohol Education and (2) how many staff are employed by the Committee Research Council; how many such staff will be on Carcinogenicity of Chemicals in Food, Consumer transferred to (a) his Department and (b) new bodies; Products and the Environment; how many such staff how many such staff will be made redundant; and what will be transferred to (a) his Department and (b) new estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of bodies; how many such staff will be made redundant; redundancy payments for these staff. [18151] and what estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of redundancy payments for these staff; [18153] Anne Milton: The Alcohol Education Research Council (3) how many staff are employed by the Committee (AERC) employs three staff. on Mutagenicity of Chemicals in Food, Consumer The reforms to the AERC were announced in the Products and the Environment; how many such staff report of the arm’s-length bodies review, published in will be transferred to (a) his Department and (b) new July 2010. As set out in the review, the AERC will be bodies; how many such staff will be made redundant; abolished as a non-departmental public body and remain and what estimate he has made of the cost to the public as a charity. purse of redundancy payments for these staff. [18155] John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Anne Milton: The Committee on Mutagenicity of pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official Chemicals in Food, Consumer Products and the Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, how Environment, the Committee on the Medical Effects of many staff are employed by the Appointments Air Pollutants and the Committee on Carcinogenicity Commission; how many such staff will be transferred of Chemicals in Food, Consumer Products and the to (a) his Department and (b) new bodies; how many Environment do not employ staff, therefore there will such staff will be made redundant; and what estimate be no redundancies or associated redundancy costs. he has made of the cost to the public purse of The secretariats for the committees are provided by the redundancy payments for these staff. [18152] Health Protection Agency. A secretariat function will Mr Simon Burns: The Appointments Commission continue to be provided for the reconstituted committees currently employs 54 members of staff. It is not yet of experts. clear how many, if any, staff will be transferred to the Department or another Government organisation. It is John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health anticipated that the number of staff will reduce by pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official approximately half in March 2011, with all remaining Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, how staff being made redundant in March 2012, with the many staff are employed by the Advisory Committee exception of any moving to another employer. on the Safety of Blood, Tissues and Organs; how many such staff will be transferred to (a) his Department It is estimated that redundancy payments may total and (b) new bodies; how many such staff will be made between £1.75 million and £1.82 million over the two-stage redundant; and what estimate he has made of the cost redundancy period. to the public purse of redundancy payments for these John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health staff. [18149] pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, how Anne Milton: The Advisory Committee on the Safety many staff are employed by the Committee on Medical of Blood, Tissues and Organs does not employ staff, Aspects of Radiation in the Environment; how many therefore there will be no redundancies or associated such staff will be transferred to (a) his Department redundancy costs. The secretariat for the committee is and (b) new bodies; how many such staff will be made provided by the Department. A secretariat function will redundant; and what estimate he has made of the cost continue to be provided for the reconstituted committee to the public purse of redundancy payments for these of experts. staff. [18154]

John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Anne Milton: The Committee on Medical Aspects of pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official Radiation in the Environment does not employ staff, Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, how therefore there will be no redundancies or associated many staff are employed by the Advisory Group on redundancy costs arising from its reconstitution as a 787W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 788W

Departmental Committee of Experts. The secretariat Anne Milton: The Department’s intention to abolish for the committee is currently provided by the Health the Genetics and Insurance Committee was announced Protection Agency. A secretariat function will continue in 2009 by the previous Government. The committee to be provided for the reconstituted committee. has not met since October 2008. The committee did not employ staff and therefore there were no redundancies John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health or associated redundancy costs. The Genetics and Insurance pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official Committee secretariat was provided by departmental Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, how officials. many staff are employed by the Council for Healthcare Regulatory Excellence; how many such staff will be John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health transferred to (a) his Department and (b) new bodies; pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official how many such staff will be made redundant; and what Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, how estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of many staff are employed by the Health Protection redundancy payments for these staff. [18157] Agency; how many such staff will be transferred to (a) Anne Milton: The reforms to the Council for Healthcare his Department and (b) new bodies; how many such Regulatory Excellence were announced in the report of staff will be made redundant; and what estimate he has the arm’s-length bodies review, published in July 2010. made of the cost to the public purse of redundancy During 2009-10, the Council for Healthcare Regulatory payments for these staff. [18162] Excellence employed an average of 18.7 full-time and part-time staff, including temporary staff (annual report Anne Milton: The reforms to the Health Protection and accounts 2009-10). We do not expect that any staff Agency were announced in the report of the arm’s-length will be transferred out of the Council for Healthcare bodies review, published in July 2010. As at 31 March Regulatory Excellence or made redundant as a result of 2010, the Health Protection Agency employed 3,791 these reforms. staff (average number of full-time equivalent staff). Further work is required to plan for implementation of John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health the reforms. pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official The Department is working with individual arm’s Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, how length bodies to support delivery of the transitional many staff are employed by the Expert Advisory Group changes required. It is too early at this stage to set out on AIDS; how many such staff will be transferred to what the full impact of the review will be in terms of (a) his Department and (b) new bodies; how many impact on staff and the costs of redundancies. such staff will be made redundant; and what estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of redundancy John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health payments for these staff. [18158] pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official Anne Milton: The Expert Advisory Group on AIDS Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, how do not employ staff, therefore there will be no redundancies many staff are employed by the Human Fertilisation or associated redundancy costs. The secretariat for the and Embryology Authority; how many such staff will committee is provided by the Health Protection Agency. be transferred to (a) his Department and (b) new A secretariat function will continue to be provided for bodies; how many such staff will be made redundant; the reconstituted committee of experts. and what estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of redundancy payments for these staff. [18164] John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official Anne Milton: The reforms to the Human Fertilisation Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, how and Embryology Authority were announced in the report many staff are employed by the Gene Therapy of the Department’s arm’s-length bodies review, published Advisory Committee; how many such staff will be in July 2010. As of 13 October 2010 there were 83 staff transferred to (a) his Department and (b) new bodies; in post. Further work is required to plan for implementation how many such staff will be made redundant; and what of the reforms before estimates of staff transfers and estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of redundancies can be made and of the costs involved. redundancy payments for these staff. [18159] Anne Milton: The Gene Therapy Advisory Committee John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (GTAC) does not employee any staff, therefore there pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official will be no redundancies or associated redundancy costs. Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, how One post in the secretariat supporting GTAC was many staff are employed by the Human Tissue Authority; transferred from the Department to the National Research how many such staff will be transferred to (a) his Ethics Service. Department and (b) new bodies; how many such staff will be made redundant; and what estimate he has made John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health of the cost to the public purse of redundancy payments pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official for these staff. [18165] Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, how many staff are employed by the Genetics and Insurance Anne Milton: The reforms to the Human Tissue Committee; how many such staff will be transferred to Authority (HTA) were announced in the report of the (a) his Department and (b) new bodies; how many Department’s arms length bodies review, published in such staff will be made redundant; and what estimate July 2010. The HTA has a staffing complement of 67 he has made of the cost to the public purse of full-time equivalent members of staff. As of 15 October redundancy payments for these staff. [18161] 2010, there were 45 staff in post. Further work is 789W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 790W required to plan for implementation of the reforms to develop and publish criteria for the evaluation of specific before estimates of staff transfers and redundancies can genetic tests, their application to particular conditions and be made and of the costs involved. their reliability and relevance to particular types of insurance; to evaluate particular tests against those criteria and to bring John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health to public knowledge its findings; pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official to report to Health, Treasury, and Department of Trade and Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, how Industry (DTI) Ministers on proposals received by GAIC from many staff are employed by the Independent Advisory insurance providers and the subsequent level of compliance by Group on Sexual Health and HIV; how many such the industry with the recommendations of GAIC; staff will be transferred to (a) his Department and (b) to provide independent wide ranging oversight of how insurers new bodies; how many such staff will be made are using genetic tests, specifically: redundant; and what estimate he has made of the cost to provide independent scrutiny of compliance with the Association to the public purse of redundancy payments for these of British Insurers (ABI) Code of Practice and the terms of the staff. [18166] concordat and moratorium agreed in 2005 on the use of genetic test results by insurance companies; Anne Milton: The Independent Advisory Group on to deal with complaints from insurance applicants about the Sexual Health and HIV does not employ staff and way an insurance company has dealt with their application therefore there will be no staff transfers either to the under the moratorium, where such complaints have not been Department or to the new Stakeholder Advisory Group. resolved to the satisfaction of the applicant by either their Any costs associated with the closure of the Independent insurance company in the first instance or by the ABI; and Advisory Group are currently being assessed. to report annually to Health, Treasury, and DTI Ministers on compliance by insurers with the ABI Code of Practice, the John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health concordat and the moratorium. pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official The GAIC’s functions were transferred to a subgroup Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, how of the Human Genetics Commission—the Monitoring many staff are employed by the Joint Committee on Group for Genetics and Insurance. Approval of genetic Vaccination and Immunisations; how many such staff tests for use in insurance will be carried out by an will be transferred to (a) his Department and (b) new ad-hoc Genetics and Insurance Applications Panel. bodies; how many such staff will be made redundant; Proposals relating to the exact remit and constitution of and what estimate he has made of the cost to the public the new arrangements are currently being developed. purse of redundancy payments for these staff. [18169] Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, what Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, what the functions of the Joint Committee on Vaccination the functions of the Expert Advisory Group on Aids and Immunisations are; which of these functions are to are; which of these functions are to be retained; and be retained; and which bodies he proposes to have which bodies he proposes to have responsibility for responsibility for fulfilling these functions. [18313] fulfilling these functions. [18294]

Anne Milton: The Joint Committee on Vaccination Anne Milton: The function of the Expert Advisory and Immunisation (JCVI) is tasked with advising Group on AIDS is to provide advice on such matters Government on matters relating to the provision of relating to HIV/AIDS as may be referred to it by the vaccination and immunisation services. On 14 October Chief Medical Officers of the Health Departments of it was announced that the JCVI will no longer be the United Kingdom. classified by the Cabinet Office as an advisory non- departmental public body. The function of the JCVI The function of the Expert Advisory Group on AIDS will remain unchanged, following its reconstitution into will remain unchanged, following its reconstitution into a Department/public health service committee of experts. a Departmental/Public Health Service Committee of None of the JCVI’s functions will be transferred to Experts. other bodies. Once the change is enacted the Expert Advisory The JCVI does not employ staff, therefore there will Group on AIDS will continue to be responsible for the be no redundancies or associated redundancy costs. function but as a Departmental/Public Health Service The secretariat for the committee is provided by the Committee of Experts. Department. A secretariat function will continue to be provided for the reconstituted committee of experts. Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, what pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official the functions of the Council for Healthcare Regulatory Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, what Excellence are; which of these functions are to be the functions of the Genetics and Insurance Committee retained; and which bodies he proposes to have are; which of these functions are to be retained; and responsibility for fulfilling these functions. [18296] which bodies he proposes to have responsibility for fulfilling these functions. [18293] Anne Milton: The functions of the Council for Healthcare Anne Milton: The Department’s intention to abolish Regulatory Excellence are set out in the National Health the Genetics and Insurance Committee (GAIC) was Service Reform and Health Care Professions Act 2002 announced in 2009. The Committee last met in October (as amended). All of the Council for Healthcare Regulatory 2008. The Committee’s functions were: Excellence’s current functions are to be retained and we 791W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 792W propose to extend its remit to enable it to set standards The Committee provides independent advice on risk for and to quality assure voluntary registers of health management for UK Health Departments to consider. and social care workers. The function of the Advisory Committee on the Safety of Blood, Tissues and Organs will remain unchanged, Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health following its reconstitution into a Departmental Committee pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official of Experts and will continue to be responsible for these Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, what functions. the functions of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority are; which of these functions are to be retained; and which bodies he proposes to have responsibility for Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official fulfilling these functions. [18301] Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, what the functions of the Advisory Group on Hepatitis are; Anne Milton: As set out in the Human Fertilisation which of these functions are to be retained; and which and Embryology Act 1990, as amended, (the 1990 Act) bodies he proposes to have responsibility for fulfilling the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority’s these functions. [18303] statutory functions are: the licensing and monitoring of establishments: (i) providing treatments involving the creation of embryos outside the body Anne Milton: The function of the Advisory Group on and treatment involving the use of donated gametes or embryos, Hepatitis is to advise the Chief Medical Officers in (ii) establishments providing fertility related services involving England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland on the donation, procurement, testing, processing, preservation, appropriate policies for the prevention and control of storage or distribution of gametes and embryos and (iii) centres viral hepatitis in the community and in health care carrying out research involving the use of human embryos; settings, but excluding advice on the microbiological to keep under review information about embryos, the subsequent safety of blood and tissues for transplantation, and of development of embryos and the provision of treatment services health care equipment. and other activities governed by the 1990 Act, giving advice to the Secretary of State for Health on these matters if asked to The function of the Advisory Group on Hepatitis do so; will remain unchanged, following its reconstitution into to publicise the services it provides to the public and those a Departmental/Public Health Service Committee of provided by licence holders; Experts. to provide advice and information to licensed establishments, Once the change is enacted the Advisory Group on patients and gamete/embryo donors; Hepatitis will continue to be responsible for the function to maintain a statement of the general principles it considers but as a Departmental/Public Health Service Committee should be followed in carrying out activities under the 1990 of Experts. Act and any functions related to those activities; to maintain and promote compliance with a code of practice Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health giving licensed establishments guidance on the proper conduct of licensed activities; and (1) pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, to maintain a register of all licensed treatment cycles carried what the functions of the Committee on Mutagenicity out in the United Kingdom, with details of donors, patients and any resulting offspring and provide them with information of Chemicals in Food, Consumer Products and the as requested. Environment are; which of these functions are to be retained; and which bodies he proposes to have As indicated in the report of the Department’s arm’s responsibility for fulfilling these functions; [18307] length bodies review, published on 26 July 2010, it is proposed that these functions will be transferred to (2) pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, other bodies by the end of the current Parliament. Official Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, We will examine in detail the practicalities and legal what the functions of the Committee on the Medical implications of how to divide the functions between the Effects of Air Pollutants are; which of these functions Care Quality Commission, any new research regulator are to be retained; and which bodies he proposes to and the Health and Social Care Information Centre. have responsibility for fulfilling these functions; [18309] (3) pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Official Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official what the functions of the Committee on Carcinogenicity Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, what of Chemicals in Food, Consumer Products and the the functions of the Advisory Committee on the Safety Environment are; which of these functions are to be of Blood, Tissues and Organs are; which of these retained; and which bodies he proposes to have functions are to be retained; and which bodies he proposes responsibility for fulfilling these functions. [18310] to have responsibility for fulfilling these functions. [18302] Anne Milton: The function of the Committee on Mutagenicity of Chemicals in Food, Consumer Products Anne Milton: The Advisory Committee on the Safety and the Environment (COM) and the Committee on of Blood, Tissues and Organs advises United Kingdom Carcinogenicity of Chemicals in Food, Consumer Products Health Departments on the most appropriate ways to and the Environment (COC) is to provide advice to ensure the safety of blood, cells, tissues and organs for Government Departments and Agencies on the potential transfusion/transplantation. Its remit includes providing mutagenicity and carcinogenicity, respectively, of chemicals, advice on the microbiological safety of gametes and from natural products to new synthetic chemicals used stem cells, in liaison with the relevant regulatory authorities. in pesticides or pharmaceuticals. 793W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 794W

The function of the Committee on the Medical Effects The AERC has charitable status and administers a of Air Pollutants (COMEAP) is to provide advice to fund of around £8 million to support research into the Government Departments and Agencies on all matters prevention of alcohol-related harm. The Department concerning the potential toxicity and effects upon health does not provide funding for this arm’s-length body. of air pollutants. The functions of COM, COMEAP As set out in the Department’s report of the Arms and COC will remain unchanged, following their Length Bodies Review, the AERC will be abolished as a reconstitution into departmental committees of experts. non-departmental public body and remain as a charity. Once the change is effected COM, COMEAP and COC will continue to undertake their function but as Respiratory Diseases departmental committees of experts.

Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official Health how many hospital bed days were accounted for Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, what by patients with (a) chronic obstructive pulmonary the functions of the Committee on Medical Aspects of disease and (b) all respiratory diseases in (i) Bolton Radiation in the Environment are; which of these functions South East constituency and (ii) England in the latest are to be retained; and which bodies he proposes to period for which figures are available. [18132] have responsibility for fulfilling these functions. [18308] Mr Simon Burns: The most recent ‘National Statistics’ Anne Milton: The functions of the Committee on certified Hospital Episode Statistics data are for 2008-09; Medical Aspects of Radiation in the Environment are the following numbers are only available at the level of to assess and advise Government and the devolved Bolton Primary Care Trust (PCT), rather than Bolton authorities on the health effects of natural and man-made South East constituency. For patients treated in Bolton radiation and to assess the adequacy of the available PCT, regardless of place of residence, there were 6,079 data and the need for further research. The functions of bed days with a primary diagnosis of chronic obstructive the Committee on Medical Aspects of Radiation in the pulmonary disease (COPD) (defined as ICD-10 codes Environment will remain unchanged, following its J40 to J44 inclusive). For patients resident in Bolton reconstitution as a departmental committee of experts. PCT, but treated anywhere in the English national health service, there were 4,808 bed days with a primary diagnosis of COPD. Overall, in the English NHS, there Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health were 878,218 bed days for this primary diagnosis in pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official 2008-09. Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, what the functions of the Appointments Commission are; For patients with a primary diagnosis of respiratory which of these functions are to be retained; and which disease (defined as ICD-10 codes J00 to J99 inclusive), bodies he proposes to have responsibility for fulfilling there were 27,474 bed days for patients treated in Bolton these functions. [18314] PCT, or 23,141 bed days for patients resident in Bolton PCT. Overall, there were 4,249,216 bed days for these Mr Simon Burns: The Appointments Commission is primary diagnoses in 2008-09. responsible, on behalf of the Secretary of State for Health, for appointing chairs and non-executive members Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for of local national health service bodies and the majority Health how many hospital admissions there were for of the Department’s national bodies. The Appointments (a) chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and (b) all Commission also delivers a range of other supporting respiratory diseases in (i) Bolton South East constituency functions. and (ii) England in the latest period for which figures are available. [18133] The majority of the Appointments Commission’s work and functions will cease to exist in the future as Mr Simon Burns: The most recent ‘National Statistics’ there will be no local and fewer national public certified Hospital Episode Statistics data are for 2008-09; appointments. As part of the transition to abolition, the the following numbers are only available at the level of Department is currently working with the Appointments Bolton Primary Care Trust (PCT), rather than Bolton Commission on considering which functions may continue. South East constituency. For patients treated in Bolton Remaining national appointments will be undertaken PCT, regardless of place of residence, there were 809 by the Department, in-line with other Government first admission episodes with a primary diagnosis of Departments. chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) (defined as ICD-10 codes J40 to J44 inclusive). For patients Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health resident in Bolton PCT, but treated anywhere in the pursuant to the statement of 14 October 2010, Official English national health service, there were 651 first Report, columns 505-06, on public bodies reform, what admission episodes with a primary diagnosis of COPD. the functions of the Alcohol Education and Research Overall, in the English NHS, there were 119,317 first Council are; which of these functions are to be retained; admission episodes for this primary diagnosis in 2008-09. and which bodies he proposes to have responsibility for For patients with a primary diagnosis of respiratory fulfilling these functions. [18315] disease (defined as ICD-10 codes J00 to J99 inclusive), there were 5,518 first admission episodes for patients Anne Milton: The Alcohol Education and Research treated in Bolton PCT, or 4,816 first admission episodes Council (AERC) was established as an Executive non- for patients resident in Bolton PCT. Overall, there were departmental public body via the Licensing (Alcohol 757,003 first admission episodes for these primary diagnoses Education and Research) Act 1981. in 2008-09. 795W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 796W

Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for STI 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Health if he will take steps to include a lung function test within the NHS Healthcheck. [18135] Community-based Chlamydia 181 217 471 720 714 chlamydia screening (NCSP) Mr Simon Burns: The purpose of the NHS Health 1 Suppressed value less than five (between 0 and five) Check programme is to identify an individual’s risk of Notes: GUM data: heart disease, stroke, kidney disease and diabetes. The 1. The data available from the KC60 (2008 and earlier) and GUMCAD (2009 tests used in the NHS Health Check are based on onwards) returns are for diagnoses made in GUM clinics only. Diagnoses economic modelling undertaken by the Department to made in other clinical settings, such as General Practice, are not recorded in the GUMCAD dataset. ensure it is clinically and cost-effective. We continue to 2. The data available from the KC60 and GUMCAD returns are the number keep the components of the NHS Health Check under of diagnoses made, not the number of patients diagnosed. review as new evidence emerges. 3. The information provided has been adjusted for missing clinic data. NCSP data: 4. The NCSP has been phased in since 1 April 2003 with all 152 primary care trusts reporting data to the programme since March 2008. Therefore numbers of diagnoses have risen substantially as the proportion of sexually active under 25 year olds who have been tested has increased. 5. The NCSP data are for positive chlamydia screens conducted outside of Sexually Transmitted Diseases: Children GUM clinics. 6. The data available from the NCSP are the number of diagnoses made and not the number of patients diagnosed. Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for 7. NSCP data exclude those resident outside of England. Additional notes on table: Health how many children aged (a) 11 and (b) 12 years 8. There will be over counting of chlamydia data as patients from the NCSP were diagnosed with a sexually transmitted infection may be referred to GUM clinics. (STI) in each of the last five years; if he will make it his 9. STI related infections in infants and young children such as ophthalmia neonatorum due to chlamydia or gonorrhoea, herpes and congenital syphilis policy routinely to publish figures on the number of will also be included in the table. STI diagnoses among under-12s in future years; and if Source: he will make a statement. [17859] Health Protection Agency, KC60 and GUMCAD returns; NCSP returns. Date of data: August 2010

Anne Milton: The Office for National Statistics (ONS) paper entitled ‘Review of the Dissemination of Health Suicide: Armed Forces Statistics—Confidentiality Guidance’, which conforms with departmental policy on data publication, has been Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Health adopted to enable the Health Protection Agency (HPA) if he will consider the merits of introducing a comprehensive to provide surveillance information without jeopardising mental health education programme to address the patient confidentiality. When publishing information vulnerability to suicide of those leaving the armed on sensitive clinical conditions such as sexually transmitted forces. [17963] infections (STIs), public health interests must be balanced against patient confidentiality and data protection Paul Burstow: My hon. Friend the Member for South obligations. The HPA aims to consistently apply the West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) recently submitted a principles and uniform standards of the ONS/Department report on the mental health of service people and of Health guidance when publishing information. veterans which was commissioned by the Prime Minister Information on STIs is among the most sensitive data and has been welcomed by the Government. Officials the HPA collects. Where a cell in a table has a number from the Department of Health and Ministry of Defence less than five, the risk of indirect ascertainment of the are currently working on implementing these proposals. identity of those affected is assessed. Diagnoses of STIs in those aged under 15 years are not published by single year of age because the small numbers concerned, Tobacco: Sales together with the additional information of the exact year of age, pose too great a risk of deductive disclosure. Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Therefore, only aggregate information on STI diagnoses how many representations in opposition to the proposed in those aged under 15 years is presented in HPA prohibition on tobacco displays his Department has publications and there are no plans to review this policy. received since 28 July 2010. [17391] Information on the number of selected STIs for those diagnosed in genitourinary medicine (GUM) clinics Anne Milton: Many representations have been made and in the National Chlamydia Screening Programme by interested parties on both sides of this argument by (NCSP) in England, in those under the age of 15, letter and e-mail, in meetings and by other methods, 2005-09, is given in the following table. ever since the Department began consultations in May 2008. These have continued and the Department has STI 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 received over 6,000 items of official correspondence GUM clinics Gonorrhoea 71 49 60 47 43 mentioning tobacco displays since 28 July 2010. The Syphilis 10 1— 1— 1— 1— majority of these come from a postcard campaign by the Association of Convenience Stores launched on Genital 35 33 56 67 56 herpes 9 August 2010 opposing the new legislation. Genital 139 138 153 149 177 It is not possible to provide a definitive total of all warts representations, however made, or an accurate breakdown Chlamydia 317 328 332 356 264 of whether they oppose or support the prohibition of tobacco displays. 797W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 798W

Transplant Surgery: Health Services a clearer idea of the likely costs of a wider roll-out of National Citizen Service once we have evaluated the Nicky Morgan: To ask the Secretary of State for two year pilot phase. Health what recent representations he has received on the provision of healthcare for transplant patients, with Voluntary and Community Sector particular reference to the (a) financial and (b) health effects on such patients of prescription charges. [16926] 14. Mr Evennett: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what his policy is on increasing the resources to Anne Milton: In the period 12 May 2010 to 8 October be allocated to the voluntary and community sector. 2010, the Department had received around 280 written [18061] representations about prescription charges from hon. Members (including the hon. Lady’s question), Noble Mr Hurd: One of the priorities in the Office for Civil Lords and members of the public. Some of these may Society is to help get more resources into the sector—both have concerned transplant patients. time and money. Last Thursday we published “Building a Stronger Civil Society” a strategy for the voluntary, community and a social enterprise sector. Specific plans are subject to the spending review which was announced DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer Civil Servants: Pensions today.

Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister Non-departmental Public Bodies how many former civil servants who had left service between 1 June 1972 and 1 October 2002 but who had 15. Neil Carmichael: To ask the Minister for the fallen ill before attaining the age of 60 received a lump Cabinet Office what recent progress has been made on sum under the Civil Service Pension Scheme in (a) his Department’s review of non-departmental public 2008 and (b) 2009. [17768] bodies. [18062]

Mr Maude: I have been asked to reply. Mr Maude: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I The Civil Service Pension Scheme medical adviser gave earlier today. supported 179 former scheme member applications for early payment of deferred benefits in 2008-09 and 137 Mr Amess: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office in 2009-10. As well as a pension lump sum they would which non-departmental public bodies sponsored by also have begun receiving their ongoing civil service his Department he plans to (a) abolish, (b) retain, (c) pension. These former members would have left retain with modifications, (d) merge with other bodies employment on or after 1 June 1972. and (e) retain pending further consideration; and if he will make a statement. [17366]

Mr Maude: I refer the hon. Member to the written CABINET OFFICE ministerial statement made to the House on 14 October Third Sector Compact 2010, Official Report, columns 26-28WS. Cancer 11. Lindsay Roy: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what plans his Department has for the future of the compact on relations between Government and the Mr Baron: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office (1) what the mortality rate was for each type of cancer third sector in England. [18058] in people aged (a) 49 years and under, (b) 50 to Mr Hurd: The Compact is an important framework 59 years, (c) 60 to 69 years, (d) 70 to 79 years and (e) for the relationship between the state and the sector. over 80 years in (i) each cancer network, (ii) each primary care trust and (iii) England in each of the last The Prime Minister has made it clear that we need to five years; [17163] strengthen it. That work is currently being undertaken with Compact Voice. The intention is to bring it up to (2) what the incidence was of each type of cancer in date, make it sharper and increase the transparency and people aged (a) 49 years and under, (b) 50 to 59 years, accountability around implementation. (c) 60 to 69 years, (d) 70 to 79 years and (e) over 80 years in (i) each cancer network, (ii) each primary care National Citizen Service trust and (iii) England in each of the last five years; [17164] 12. Stella Creasy: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet (3) how many people aged (a) 49 years and under, Office what estimate he has made of the cost of (b) 50 to 59 years, (c) 60 to 69 years, (d) 70 to 79 years providing a national citizen service place for every and (e) over 80 years were diagnosed with each type of 16-year-old by 2015. [18059] cancer in (i) each cancer network, (ii) each primary care trust and (iii) England in each of the last five years. Mr Hurd: Over the next two years we intend to test a [17165] range of different approaches for delivering National Citizen Service. Doing so will help us to identify the Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the most cost-effective way to deliver a high-quality National responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Citizen Service experience to 16-year olds. We will have asked the authority to reply. 799W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 800W

Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated October 2010: Copies of all tables have been placed in the House of Commons As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, Library. I have been asked to reply to your recent questions asking: General Election 2010: Fraud 1. What the mortality rate was for each type of cancer in people aged (a) 49 years and under, (b) 50 to 59 years, (e) 60 to 69 years, (d) 70 to 79 years and (e) over 80 years in (i) each cancer Mr Spellar: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet network, (ii) each primary care trust and (iii) England in each of Office what evidence his Department has collected on the last five years. [017163] the extent of alleged electoral fraud at the May 2010 2. What the incidence was of each type of cancer in people general election. [17516] aged (a) 49 years and under, (b) 50 to 59 years, (c) 60 to 69 years, (d) 70 to 79 years and (e) over 80 years in (i) each cancer network, Mr Harper: The Cabinet Office does not collect (ii) each primary care trust and (iii) England in each of the last information on the extent of fraud but the Electoral five years. [017164] Commission and the Association of Chief Police Officers 3. How many people aged (a) 49 years and under, (b) 50 to 59 undertake systematic monitoring of allegations of electoral years, (c) 60 to 69 years, (d) 70 to 79 years and (e) over 80 years were diagnosed with each type of cancer in (i) each cancer malpractice reported to the police during the election network, (ii) each primary care trust and (iii) England in each of period. Cabinet Office officials also attend meetings of the last five years. [017165] relevant stakeholders hosted by the Electoral Commission The latest available figures for newly diagnosed cases of cancer to discuss issues related to electoral integrity. (incidence) are for the year 2007, while the latest figures for The Electoral Commission has indicated that it will mortality are for the year 2009. However, since the latest available publish the verified data arising from this process, and population estimates for primary care organisations and cancer analysis on the extent and nature of electoral malpractice networks (required to calculate rates) are for the year 2008, all mortality rates have been provided up to 2008. reported during 2010 (including the May UK general election), in January 2011. Question 2 above requests figures on ’incidence... [for] each type of cancer’, which is the same as ’how many people... were Older People diagnosed’ (question 3). Question 2 has the therefore been interpreted as meaning incidence rates. To supply mortality rates, incidence rates and incidence numbers Mr Amess: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office for all types of cancer for (i) each cancer network, (ii) each how many (a) male and (b) female centenarians there primary care organisation and (iii) England in each of the last five were in England and Wales in each year from 1980 to years could only be done at disproportionate cost. Therefore, 2005. [17418] figures have been provided for the four most commonly diagnosed cancers: breast (women), colorectal (bowel), lung and prostate. Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Age-specific rates have been provided for England, using the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have age groups as specified in the questions above. Age-standardised asked the Authority to reply. rates have been provided for cancer networks and primary care organisations, since numbers were too low to calculate cancer-specific Letter from Stephen Penneck dated October 2010: , age-specific rates for all age groups, for all areas. As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Table 1 (i) provides the age-standardised mortality rate for have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question breast (women), colorectal, lung and prostate cancer, for each to the Minister for the Cabinet Office asking how many (a) male cancer network in England, for the years 2004 to 2008. and (b) female centenarians there were in England and Wales in each year from 1980 to 2005 (017418). Table 1 (ii) provides the age-standardised mortality rate for breast (women), colorectal. lung and prostate cancer, for each Estimates of the number of centenarians are published by the primary care organisation in England, for the years 2004 to 2008. Office for National Statistics for England and Wales combined. The table below gives the requested information. Table 1 (iii) provides the age-specific mortality rate for breast (women), colorectal, lung and prostate cancer, for persons aged Estimated number of centenarians, 1980-2005, England and Wales (a) 49 years and under , (b) 50 to 59 years, (c) 60 to 69 years, Male Female Total (d) 70 to 79 years and (e) over 60 years , for England, for the years 2004 to 2006. 1980 300 2,000 2,300 Table 2 (i) provides the age-standardised incidence rate for 1981 300 2,100 2,400 breast (women), colorectal, lung and prostate cancer, for each 1982 300 2,200 2,600 cancer network in England, for the years 2003 to 2007. 1983 300 2,400 2,800 Table 2 (ii) provides the age-standardised incidence rate for 1984 400 2,600 2,900 breast (women), colorectal, lung and prostate cancer, for each 1985 400 2,700 3,100 primary care organisation in England, for the years 2003 to 2007. 1986 400 2,900 3,300 Table 2 (iii) provides the age-specific incidence rate for breast 1987 400 3,100 3,600 (women), colorectal, lung and prostate cancer, for persons aged (a) 49 years and under, (b) 50 to 59 years, (c) 60 to 69 years, (d) 70 1988 500 3,300 3,800 to 79 years and (e) over 60 years , for England, for the years 2003 1989 500 3,500 4,000 to 2007. 1990 500 3,600 4,000 Table 3 (i) provides the number of newly diagnosed breast 1991 500 3,700 4,200 (women), colorectal, lung and prostate cancers, for each cancer 1992 500 4,000 4,500 network in England, for the years 2003 to 2007. 1993 500 4,300 4,800 Table 3 (ii) provides the number of newly diagnosed breast 1994 500 4,400 4,900 (women), colorectal, lung and prostate cancers, for each primary 1995 500 4,600 5,200 care organisation in England, for the years 2003 to 2007. 1996 500 4,700 5,300 Table 3 (iii) provides the number of newly diagnosed breast 1997 500 4,900 5,400 (women), colorectal, lung and prostate cancers, for persons aged (a) 49 years and under, (b) 50 to 59 years, (c) 60 to 69 years , (d) 70 1998 600 5,100 5,700 to 79 years and (e) over 60 years , for England, for the years 2003 1999 600 5,300 5,900 to 2007. 2000 700 5,500 6,200 801W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 802W

Estimated number of centenarians, 1980-2005, England and Wales Letter from Andrew McDonald to Helen Jones: Male Female Total As Interim Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary 2001 700 5,900 6,700 Question asking how many (a) permanent and (b) temporary 2002 800 6,300 7,000 staff the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority employs 2003 800 6,500 7,300 in each pay band. 17890 2004 900 6,800 7,700 The number of permanent, fixed term and temporary full time 2005 1,000 7,100 8,100 equivalent staff employed in each IPSA salary range as of 14 October Note: 2010 is shown below. Temporary staff have been assigned to the Figures rounded to nearest 100, may not add exactly due to this salary grade of the position in which they are working. rounding. Source: Temporary Office for National Statistics (incl. Job grade Permanent Fixed term secondees)

Senior Civil 0 1 4.7 INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY Service or STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE equivalent Grade F 20 0 (£60,000— Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority: £73,000) Contracts Grade E 51 3 (£46,000— Mr Liddell-Grainger: To ask the hon. Member for £61,500) Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for Grade D 41 4 (£35,000— the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, £46,000) which companies, other than Calyx (UK), responded to Grade C 9.5 4 1 the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority’s (£30,500— invitation to tender for the provision of infrastructure £37,000) and enterprise software support; and what criteria were Grade B 17 0 15 used determine which respondee was awarded the contract. (£23,000— [17618] £30,500) Grade A 50 6 Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls (£19,500— £25,000) within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. Total 42.5 7 33.7 Letter from Andrew McDonald to Ian Liddell-Grainger: As Interim Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking for information on the companies who responded JUSTICE to the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority’s invitation to tender for the provision of infrastructure and enterprise software Courts: Bedfordshire support; and what criteria were used to determine which respondee was awarded the contract. (17618) The companies that responded to the invitation to tender for Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for the provision of infrastructure and enterprise software support Justice how much funding his Department allocated to were: HM Courts Service in Bedfordshire in 2009-10; and Computacenter (UK) Ltd what estimate he has made of the level of funding for Insight Direct (UK) Ltd that service in Bedfordshire in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12. [18025] Probrand Ltd Calyx (UK) Ltd formed part of the Insight Direct (UK) Ltd Mr Djanogly: Her Majesty’s Courts Service (HMCS) tender. allocated £7.41 million in Bedfordshire in 2009-10 and Information on the assessment criteria applied during this the latest estimate of the budget for 2010-11 is £7.08 process has already been provided in our answer given in respect million. This reduction of 4% in the allocation in 2010-11 of a previous question on 12 October 2010, Official Report, column 258W. is consistent with the reductions across HMCS as a result of efficiencies. Manpower: Parliamentary Standards Authority The estimate for 2011-12 will not be available until the announcement of the outcome of the spending review and the subsequent work in identifying the Helen Jones: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, breakdown of this settlement across the rest of Her representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Majesty’s Courts Service. Parliamentary Standards Authority, how many (a) permanent and (b) temporary staff the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority employs in each Crime: Victims pay band. [17890] Karl Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls what arrangements are in place to inform (a) victims within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary of crime, (b) their families and (c) police officers Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. about family and victim impact statements. [18008] 803W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 804W

Mr Blunt: Victim Impact Statements are now officially Regional Offender Managers known as Victim Personal Statements. All victims of crime or, in cases of homicide, the family of the victim Alun Michael: To ask the Secretary of State for are eligible to make a VPS. The present method of Justice what estimate he has made of the cost to the providing a leaflet to inform victims of the Victim public purse of employing and training Probation Service Personal Statement is currently being reviewed, but the offender managers in (a) England and Wales and (b) relevant information and the offer to make a statement each probation area in the last 12 months for which can still be provided by the police. figures are available. [17955] Bereaved families of homicide victims are also offered the opportunity to make a Victim Personal Statement Mr Blunt: For the period April 2009-March 2010 the under the Crown Prosecution Service’s Victim Focus estimated cost of employing all qualified probation Scheme. Families can meet with prosecutors, who will officers/offender managers in probation areas and Trusts explain the purpose of the statement. in England and Wales was £152,282,756. Ensuring that police officers offer victims or their families the opportunity to make a Victim Personal The estimated cost of the training leading to qualification Statement is the responsibility of individual police forces, as probation officers/offender managers was £26,998,207 many of which have local policies in place. In October (consisting trainee allowance of £24,526,100 and higher 2009, the former Office of Criminal Justice Reform education costs of £2,472,107). released national guidance called ‘Victim Personal The estimated costs, for each probation area/trust Statements: A guide for police officers, investigators and region, for the period April 2009-March 2010, are and criminal justice practitioners’. provided in the following table.

Domestic Violence: Rape £ 2009-10 Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Qualified Justice whether he plans to review guidelines on grant probation of pre-trial bail to those accused of (a) serious domestic Trainee offender violence and (b) rape of a partner. [17916] probation Higher managers total Probation officer education basic salary Mr Blunt: The decision whether to grant bail is a area/trust allowance costs costs matter for the discretion of the court and the Ministry South West — 192,038 — of Justice does not issue guidance. However, the Crown Avon and 710,600 — 3,277,784 Prosecution Service issues guidance to Crown Prosecutors Somerset on prosecuting cases of domestic violence and rape, and Devon and 339,300 — 3,905,148 this includes advice on how prosecutors should approach Cornwall the question of bail. The guidance makes clear that the Dorset 222,000 — 1,643,436 primary concern of the CPS in such cases is the protection Gloucestershire 258,700 — 1,209,279 of the victim and any children that may be involved. It Wiltshire 456,600 — 872,882 emphasises the need to gather as much information as possible on the needs and views of victims where the East of — 262,596 — CPS is deciding whether to oppose bail or is recommending England conditions to be imposed on a defendant before release. Bedfordshire 203,700 — 1,530,177 The CPS keeps its guidance under constant review. Cambridgeshire 325,900 — 2,143,527 Legal Aid Essex 168,800 — 1,542,096 Hertfordshire 280,800 — 1,745,800 Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Norfolk 356,300 — 1,290,705 what proportion of the legal aid budget in (a) England Suffolk 338,300 — 2,362,988 and Wales and (b) Wales was spent on the 10 per cent. of cases which resulted in the greatest cost to the public North West — 353,106 — purse in the latest period for which figures are available. Cheshire 353,700 — 2,662,210 [17876] Cumbria 307,200 — 1,562,922 Mr Djanogly: The answer could be provided only at Lancashire 631,500 — 5,014,847 disproportionate cost as the Legal Services Commission Greater 1,331,300 — 9,727,650 would need to collate and manually check a significant Manchester amount of information from various sources. Merseyside 832,200 — 6,422,498

Probation: Training North East — 76,010 — Durham 187,500 — 2,655,248 Alun Michael: To ask the Secretary of State for Teesside 156,900 — 2,958,494 Justice how much his Department spent on training Northumbria 445,200 — 4,377,804 probation officers in 2009-10. [17957] Mr Blunt: The cost of providing training for trainee South East — 306,705 — probation officers to qualify as probation officers in the Hampshire 531,900 — 4,142,483 period April 2009 to March 2010 was £26,998,207. Kent 423,200 — 3,091,834 These costs include the trainee salary, pension contribution Surrey 390,500 — 1,203,794 and the university administration cost. Sussex 873,000 — 3,908,967 805W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 806W

Reoffending rates for young people are based on £ whether an offender has been convicted at court or 2009-10 received an out-of-court disposal for an offence in the Qualified probation year following release from custody. Trainee offender probation Higher managers total Probation officer education basic salary area/trust allowance costs costs WALES

Thames 1,140,000 — 4,165,216 National Assembly for Wales Valley Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Yorkshire — 215,976 — what recent discussions she has had with (a) ministerial and colleagues, (b) the Welsh Assembly Government and Humberside (c) the Boundary Commission for Wales on reviewing Humberside 453,900 — 2,547,462 the boundaries of National Assembly for Wales North 158,500 — 2,407,290 constituencies; and what implications the outcome of Yorkshire the referendum on further powers for the National South 634,400 — 5,028,177 Assembly for Wales will have on the outcomes of that Yorkshire review. [17910] West 678,900 — 7,764,139 Yorkshire Mr Harper: I have been asked to reply. Clause 11 of the Parliamentary Voting Systems and Midlands — 425,417 — Constituencies Bill breaks the link between Assembly Derbyshire 296,000 — 2,858,782 constituencies and parliamentary constituencies in Wales, Leicestershire 418,500 — 4,005,113 so that fewer parliamentary constituencies in future Lincolnshire 151,200 — 1,059,138 would not reduce the size of the Assembly. Northamptonshire 152,000 — 1,780,316 The Government intends to bring forward legislation Nottinghamshire 570,400 — 3,880,284 at an appropriate time to establish the mechanism to Staffordshire 283,500 — 3,079,768 review and alter Assembly constituencies. In the meantime, Warwickshire 218,500 — 1,527,794 the Bill includes transitional provisions so that the West Mercia 324,700 — 2,163,834 Boundary Commission for Wales can decide whether to West 691,900 — 11,149,503 complete its current reviews. Midlands I have discussed the effects of the clause with the Secretary of State for Wales and the First Minister of London 6,862,100 432,425 21,116,280 Wales. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales has discussed future reviews of Assembly Wales — 207,834 — constituency boundaries with the Boundary Commission Dyfed- 313,700 — 923,337 for Wales. Powys The Government does not anticipate the outcome of Gwent 157,700 — 2,159,508 the referendum on full law-making powers for the National North Wales 507,600 — 1,817,878 Assembly for Wales affecting future reviews of Assembly South Wales 387,500 — 3,596,364 constituency boundaries.

Total 24,526,100 2,472,107 152,282,756 Notes: Column 1 shows how the trainee allowance was allocated to TREASURY individual probation areas and trusts to cover the salaries and pensions of trainee probation officer/offender managers. Child Benefit Column 2 shows the additional higher education costs for trainee probation officers for each region. Mr Umunna: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Column 3 shows total salary costs for qualified offender managers. This is a snapshot at 31 March 2010 collected from probation areas/ how much was allocated to expenditure on child trusts via the HR Data Warehouse. Local technical/staffing issues benefit in (a) 2009-10 and (b) 2010-11; and how much prevented West Mercia (November 2009 data provided), West he has allocated in (i) 2011-12, (ii) 2012-13 and (iii) Midlands (January 2010 data provided), North Yorkshire, Surrey, 2013-14. [11889] and Sussex (February 2010 figures provided) providing data as at March 2010. Justine Greening: Child benefit expenditure is demand- Young Offenders: Reoffenders led, and while Parliament votes on the allocation in the latest year, there is no set allocation for future years. Richard Harrington: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what percentage of young offenders re-offended Departmental Billing within one year of being released from custody in the latest period for which figures are available. [18398] Mike Freer: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what the average cost to his Department was of processing Mr Blunt: The latest reoffending rate for young people the payment of an invoice in the latest period for which (those aged between 10 and 17) released from custody figures are available; and what proportion of invoices in England and Wales in the first quarter of 2008 is settled in that period his Department paid (a) electronically 74.3%. and (b) by cheque. [16172] 807W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 808W

Justine Greening: The average cost of processing an Departmental Pensions invoice to the Treasury in 2008-09, including staff costs and a proportionate share of relevant overheads, was Pete Wishart: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer £10.10. Within that period, 99.2% of invoices were paid what the cost was of pension contributions incurred by electronically with the balance of 0.8% being paid by (a) his Department and (b) each (i) non-departmental cheque. public body and (ii) executive agency for which he is Departmental Consultants responsible in (A) Scotland, (B) Wales, (C) each region of England and (D) Northern Ireland in each of the last Pete Wishart: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer three financial years; and what the planned expenditure how much was spent on external consultants and advisers is for 2010-11. [12449] by (a) his Department and (b) each (i) non-departmental public body and (ii) executive agency for which his Justine Greening: The information available on pension Department is responsible in each year since 2005. spending in the past three years and forecast spending for 2010-11 is shown in the following table. [12450] Justine Greening: Details of spending on external £000 consultants for the Treasury and the Debt Management Debt Office is shown in table 5 of Annex A to the Treasury’s Management Asset Protection HM Treasury Office Agency 2009-10 resource accounts, which is available from www.hm-treasury.gov.uk 2007-08 10,448 851 n/a The Asset Protection Agency, which was set up on 2008-09 9,558 1898 n/a 7 December 2009 spent £1,856,000 in 2009-10 on external 2009-10 10,062 981 23 consultants. There was no such spending by the Royal 2010-11 n/a 1,041 76 Mint Advisory Committee. forecast 1 This figure has been restated since publication of DMO’s 2008-09 Departmental Drinking Water accounts reflecting the adoption of IAS 19 staff benefits. The Department’s accounting systems do not identify Nick de Bois: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer pension payments by region. how much his Department has spent on bottled water The Royal Mint Advisory Committee has not made in each year since 2008. [16878] any pension payments in the past three years and has no Justine Greening: Since June 2008, meetings at the plans to make any payments in 2010-11. Treasury’s 1 Horse Guards Road building have been supplied with in-house bottled filtered water, rather Departmental Security than bottled water sourced from outside suppliers. Spending from June 2008 until the end of the 2008-09 financial Graham Evans: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer year was £27,000 and for 2009-10 it was £39,000. Spending what the reasons are for the change in the amount of in the first six months of 2010-11 of £8,000 was significantly expenditure by his Department on security between (a) below the equivalent period in the previous year. It is 2004-05 and 2005-06 and (b) 2005-06 and 2006-07. not possible to separately identify costs of bottled water [13354] prior to June 2008 as this formed part of the cost of meeting refreshments that included teas and coffees, Justine Greening: Spending in 2005-06 on security bottled water and biscuits. was higher than usual mainly due to a contribution of £240,000 by the Treasury to the Government Secure Departmental Equality Zone (GSZ) project. The GSZ designates that area of central London containing major Government and public Caroline Lucas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer buildings and the programme consisted of a linked (1) whether his Department undertook an equalities series of projects to enhance security within the zone. impact assessment in respect of the measures proposed in the June 2010 Budget; and if he will make a statement; [11575] Departmental Training (2) if he will publish the equality impact assessment his Department made of the measures in the June 2010 Pete Wishart: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Budget; and if he will make a statement. [12560] what training has been provided for Ministers in his Department since the formation of the present Mr Gauke [holding answers 27 July and 6 September administration; and at what cost. [6452] 2010]: The Budget is an overall statement of economic policy, containing a whole range of measures. Therefore, Justine Greening: I refer the hon. Member to the it is not possible to make an overall assessment of the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Member for Budget. Horsham (Mr Maude) to the hon. Member for West Instead, Departments consider the equality impact of Bromwich East (Mr Watson) on 3 June 2010, Official their policies as they are developed and implemented. Report column 51-52W. The National School of Policy teams will continue to consider the impact of the Government are funded through its Core Learning individual budget measures on gender, race and disability programme to deliver induction and other training to as they further develop and implement the policies. This Ministers, and there is no separate charge to Departments. is in line with their legal obligations and will build on HM Treasury Ministers have not received training what they have done already. from any other providers. 809W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 810W

Doctors: Vetting (2) what estimate he has made of the additional revenue that would accrue to the Exchequer if tax Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer collection were (a) 90 per cent., (b) 95 per cent. and whether he has made an estimate of the savings likely (c) 100 per cent. of annual liabilities in 2010-11; [17981] to be made consequent on reducing the number of (3) whether his proposals to reduce the budget deficit Criminal Record Bureau checks for junior doctors, as includes an increase in the proportion of tax liabilities referred to in his Department’s Spending Challenge. collected; and if he will make a statement. [17987] [16645] Mr Gauke: The Chief Secretary to the Treasury Anne Milton: I have been asked to reply. announced the Government will make available £900 Our estimate is that the potential scale of the annual million over the spending review period to raise additional savings from national health service trusts reducing the revenues from those who undermine the tax system and number of unnecessary Criminal Record Bureau (CRB) seek to avoid paying their fair share. This should bring checks on junior doctors would be up to £1 million per in around £7 billion per annum by 2014-15 in additional year. tax revenues. Full implementation plans will be available after the spending review announcements on 20 October. This figure is an estimate based on the number of registrars and doctors in training and the current cost The recent publication of the tax gap figures for of a CRB check. Other potential savings could also 2008-09 puts the overall tax gap at £42 billion (9% of arise from indirect costs (e.g. administrative time associated estimated total tax liability), and is available at: with processing forms etc). http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/measuring-tax-gaps- The Home Secretary announced on 15 June that the 2010.htm.pdf CRB checking regime would be reviewed. The terms of Taxation: Developing Countries reference for the review will be announced shortly. Stephen Timms: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Employment what progress he has made in establishing a multilateral instrument for tax information exchange with developing John Healey: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer countries; and if he will make a statement. [17863] what estimate the Department has made of employment growth in each (a) region and (b) sector in (i) 2010-11, Mr Gauke: The Government are committed to ensuring (ii) 2011-12, (iii) 2012-13, (iv) 2013-14 and (v) 2014-15. that developing countries benefit from recent improvements [12183] in tax transparency. The Government are currently in discussions with a number of developing countries to Justine Greening: HM Treasury has not made an explore the available approaches to enable developing estimate of employment by sector, broken down by countries to benefit from the new transparent tax region in the coming years. environment. This includes examining multilateral The Office for Budget Responsibility’s Budget 2010 instruments for tax information exchange. forecast shows that total unemployment will come down from 8.1% this year, falling in every year to 6.1% in Stephen Timms: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 2015. The OBR forecast is for total employment to rise what plans HM Revenue and Customs has to support by 1.3 million by 2015-16. capacity-building projects in respect of the tax collection administrations in developing countries. [18023] Excise Duties: Fuels Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) Katy Clark: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer actively supports projects to enhance the capacity of what plans he has for pilot schemes to reduce fuel tax collection administrations in developing countries. prices (a) on the Isle of Arran and (b) in other remote In many instances, it is more cost-efficient for this rural areas. [17456] work to be undertaken on a multilateral basis, which is why in recent years HMRC has engaged proactively in Justine Greening: The Government intend to introduce capacity building initiatives organised by the Intra-European a pilot scheme that will deliver a maximum of 5 pence Organisation of Tax administrations (IOTA), which per litre duty discount on petrol and diesel in remote includes in its membership 46 countries across the European rural areas. The Government are considering the exact continent, including developing countries in the Balkans scope of the pilots and at present has announced its and eastern Europe. intention to include the Inner and Outer Hebrides, the HMRC is also involved with the OECD Informal Northern Isles, and the Isles of Scilly. The Government Task Force on Tax and Development which is examining will report back to the House, in due course, prior to how capacity building in the tax administrations of submitting a formal proposal on the scope and design developing countries can be targeted to bring the greatest of the scheme to the European Commission. benefit to developing countries. The UK will remain closely involved in this work. Tax Collection HMRC hosts and runs two flagship training courses on behalf of the Commonwealth Association of Tax Kate Green: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Administrators (CATA). The courses are designed to (1) what plans he has to reduce the amount of tax due develop management capability and technical skills and to the Exchequer which is not collected; and if he will are attended by senior managers and tax inspectors make a statement; [17877] from Commonwealth countries. 811W Written Answers20 OCTOBER 2010 Written Answers 812W

HMRC is also involved in a number of bilateral Working Tax Credit: Fraud initiatives such as the partnership with the Ethiopian Revenue and Customs Authority (ERCA), under which Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer managerial and technical assistance is provided to support what assessment he has made of the monetary value of ERCA’s modernisation programme. fraudulent claims under the childcare element of working tax credit where parents register children who do not subsequently attend before- and after-school clubs in Welfare Tax Credits the latest period for which figures are available; and what steps he is taking to reduce the number of such claims. [18097] Kate Green: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr Gauke: The information is not available as HMRC’s what estimate his Department has made of the number systems do not record this level of detail. For information of tax credit recipients who will be affected by the relating to HM Revenue and Customs compliance checks proposed reduction in the disregard of increases in on tax credits awards I refer my hon. Friend to the income from £25,000 to £5,000. [18233] information published on pages R41 and R42 of the 2009-10 Comptroller and Auditor General’s standard Mr Gauke: I refer the hon. Member to the reply given reports at: on 30 June 2010, Official Report, column 584W. www.hmrc.gov.uk/about/hmrc-accs-0910.pdf

7MC Ministerial Corrections20 OCTOBER 2010 Ministerial Corrections 8MC

are absolutely irrelevant. It also says that inconvenience Ministerial Correction to voters that comes out of the first boundary review shall be discounted by the Boundary Commission. Wednesday 20 October 2010 [Official Report, 6 September 2010, Vol. 515, c. 115.]

Mr Harper: I can assure the hon. Member for Slough CABINET OFFICE (Fiona Mactaggart) that the reference in the Bill to The following is an extract from the speeches of the “counties”, which she discussed, does include unitary hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) and the authorities. So the Boundary Commission for England Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the hon. Member will be able to take into account the boundaries of all for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) in debate on Second the unitary authorities in Berkshire as it draws up new Reading of the Parliamentary VotingSystem and Constituencies constituency boundaries, subject to the issues relating Bill: to parity. [Official Report, 6 September 2010, Vol. 515, c. 129.] Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): Let me say that the Letter of correction from Mark Harper: ward does not send Labour councillors to the borough; it elects Liberals, so no particular borough advantage An error has been identified in the response given to was involved. However, the change respected the views the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) on of people about their communities. The real problem Second Reading of the Parliamentary Voting System with the latter part of the Bill is that it does not do that. and Constituencies Bill on 6 September 2010. It specifically says that unitary authority boundaries—and The correct response should have been: “the reference all the authorities in Berkshire are unitary authorities—shall in the Bill to “counties” does include unitary authorities not be counted as local authority boundaries, so they but not those of Berkshire.”

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 20 October 2010

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 929 CABINET OFFICE—continued Commissioning and Procurement ...... 935 Social Enterprises...... 934 Departmental Procurement...... 937 Volunteering (Young People) ...... 929 Government Procurement...... 930 National Citizen Service...... 933 Non-departmental Public Bodies ...... 931 PRIME MINISTER ...... 937 Public Services (Third Sector) ...... 936 Engagements...... 937 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 20 October 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 53WS HEALTH...... 56WS EU Competitiveness Council ...... 53WS Parliamentary Written Question (Correction)...... 56WS

CABINET OFFICE...... 56WS Boundary Commission for Wales: Interim TREASURY ...... 54WS Reviews...... 56WS Equitable Life Payment Scheme...... 54WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 20 October 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 770W DEFENCE...... 742W Departmental Public Relations ...... 770W Armed Forces: Manpower ...... 742W EU Grants and Loans...... 773W Armed Forces: Pay...... 743W Further Education ...... 773W Armed Forces: Pensions...... 743W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 773W Armed Forces: Taxation...... 743W Higher Education: Research ...... 774W Armoured Fighting Vehicles ...... 744W Local Enterprise Partnerships: Regional Atomic Weapons Establishment: Finance ...... 744W Development Agencies...... 775W Defence Career Partnering...... 744W Medicine: Voluntary Organisations...... 775W Defence: Procurement...... 745W Public Bodies: Engineering ...... 775W Departmental Energy...... 745W Regulation ...... 776W Departmental Equality ...... 746W Students: Loans ...... 776W Departmental Public Relations ...... 746W Military Decorations...... 747W Nuclear Power: Decommissioning ...... 747W CABINET OFFICE...... 797W Cancer ...... 798W General Election 2010: Fraud ...... 800W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 797W National Citizen Service...... 797W Civil Servants: Pensions ...... 797W Non-departmental Public Bodies ...... 798W Older People ...... 800W EDUCATION...... 748W Third Sector Compact ...... 797W Academies...... 748W Voluntary and Community Sector ...... 798W Adoption: Finance...... 748W Children In Care ...... 749W Children: Protection...... 749W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 729W Departmental Travel ...... 750W Affordable Housing: East of England...... 729W Education: Finance...... 750W Employment: Homelessness...... 731W GCSE ...... 751W Homes and Communities Agency: East of History: GCSE...... 751W England ...... 731W Music: Education...... 752W Housing: Construction...... 732W Housing: East of England...... 732W ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE ...... 739W Landlord and Tenant ...... 734W Alternative Vote: Referendums...... 739W Electoral Systems...... 740W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 768W Local Government: Constituencies ...... 740W Empty Property: Land ...... 768W Horserace Totalisator Board ...... 768W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE...... 741W News Corporation ...... 769W Carbon Emissions...... 741W Olympic Games 2012: Ceramics...... 769W Departmental Equality ...... 741W Schools: Sydenham ...... 769W Departmental Visits Abroad ...... 741W Col. No. Col. No. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE—continued HOME DEPARTMENT—continued Fuel Poverty: Dartford...... 741W Seasonal Agricultural Workers’ Scheme...... 758W Low Carbon Buildings Programme...... 742W Renewable Energy: Heating ...... 742W INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE ...... 801W Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority: ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Contracts ...... 801W AFFAIRS...... 734W Manpower: Parliamentary Standards Authority .... 801W Agricultural Wages Board...... 735W Agricultural Wages Board for England and Wales: INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 759W Closures ...... 735W India: Pesticides ...... 759W Agricultural Wages (England and Wales) Order 2010 ...... 734W JUSTICE...... 802W Agriculture: Summertime...... 736W Courts: Bedfordshire...... 802W Badgers: Disease Control...... 736W Crime: Victims ...... 802W Dangerous Dogs ...... 736W Domestic Violence: Rape ...... 803W Food: Labelling...... 737W Legal Aid ...... 803W Forestry Commission...... 738W Probation: Training...... 803W Livestock: Sustainable Development...... 738W Regional Offender Managers ...... 804W Sustainable Development Commission: Wales ...... 738W Young Offenders: Reoffenders ...... 805W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 739W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE .... 727W Intelligence Services: Northern Ireland ...... 739W Brazil: Foreign Relations...... 727W Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission...... 739W Burma: Politics and Government ...... 727W China: Human Rights...... 727W TREASURY ...... 806W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 728W Child Benefit...... 806W Departmental Work Experience...... 728W Departmental Billing ...... 806W UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Departmental Consultants...... 807W Disabilities ...... 729W Departmental Drinking Water ...... 807W Departmental Equality ...... 807W HEALTH...... 777W Departmental Pensions ...... 808W Arthritis ...... 777W Departmental Security ...... 808W Blood: Contamination ...... 777W Departmental Training ...... 808W Chronic Fatigue Syndrome ...... 778W Doctors: Vetting...... 809W Dementia: Drugs...... 779W Employment ...... 809W Dental Services ...... 779W Excise Duties: Fuels ...... 809W Departmental Contracts ...... 779W Tax Collection...... 809W Departmental Grants...... 780W Taxation: Developing Countries ...... 810W General Practitioners: Buildings ...... 781W Welfare Tax Credits...... 811W Health Services: Brighton ...... 781W Working Tax Credit: Fraud...... 812W Maternity Services ...... 782W WALES...... 806W Non-departmental Public Bodies ...... 783W National Assembly for Wales ...... 806W Respiratory Diseases...... 794W Sexually Transmitted Diseases: Children...... 795W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 759W Suicide: Armed Forces ...... 796W Carer’s Allowance...... 759W Tobacco: Sales...... 796W Funeral Payments: Kilmarnock ...... 760W Transplant Surgery: Health Services ...... 797W Income Support: Eligibility...... 760W Independent Living Fund ...... 760W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 753W Jobcentre Plus ...... 761W Asylum ...... 753W Low Incomes: Personal Savings ...... 761W Asylum: West Midlands ...... 753W Motability...... 762W Borders: Personal Records ...... 754W National Insurance: Costs...... 762W Borders: Procurement ...... 754W Pensioners: Wales...... 762W Entry Clearances: Overseas Visitors...... 755W Social Security Benefits: Disability...... 765W Foreign Workers...... 755W Social Security Benefits: Fraud ...... 766W Human Trafficking: Convictions...... 756W Social Security Benefits: Haematological Cancer ... 766W Immigration...... 757W Social Security Benefits: Visual Impairment ...... 767W Immigration: Bulgaria ...... 757W Travel to Interview Scheme ...... 767W Passports...... 757W Winter Fuel Payments: British Nationals Abroad.. 768W Prisoners: Foreign Nationals...... 758W Winter Fuel Payments: West Midlands ...... 768W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Wednesday 20 October 2010

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not later than Wednesday 27 October 2010

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 20 October 2010

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 929] [see index inside back page] Minister for the Cabinet Office Prime Minister

Comprehensive Spending Review [Col. 949] Statement—(Mr George Osborne)

Police Terms and Conditions of Service (Redundancy) [Col. 993] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Mark Reckless)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill [Col. 995] Further considered in Committee

Television and Radio Reception (Thanet and East Kent) [Col. 1105] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Elections and Returning Officers [Col. 253WH] Independent Financial Advisers [Col. 275WH] Ahmadiyya Community [Col. 284WH] Mutual and Co-operative Rail Franchise Bids [Col. 305WH] S4C [Col. 313WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 53WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 727W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 7MC]