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Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru the National Assembly for Wales Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru The National Assembly for Wales Y Pwyllgor Cynaliadwyedd The Sustainability Committee Dydd Iau, 12 Tachwedd 2009 Thursday, 12 November 2009 16/11/2009 Cynnwys Contents 4 Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau a Dirprwyon Introduction, Apologies and Substitutions 4 Ymchwiliad i Fynediad i Ddŵr Mewndirol: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth Access to Inland Water: Evidence Session 39 Cynnig Trefniadol Procedural Motion Cofnodir y trafodion hyn yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir cyfieithiad Saesneg o gyfraniadau yn y Gymraeg. These proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, an English translation of Welsh speeches is included. 2 16/11/2009 Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol Committee members in attendance Mick Bates Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru (Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor) Welsh Liberal Democrats (Committee Chair) Angela Burns Ceidwadwyr Cymreig Welsh Conservatives Alun Davies Llafur Labour Lesley Griffiths Llafur Labour Rhodri Glyn Thomas Plaid Cymru The Party of Wales Brynle Williams Ceidwadwyr Cymreig Welsh Conservatives Leanne Wood Plaid Cymru The Party of Wales Eraill yn bresennol Others in attendance Pam Bell Unigolyn Individual Peter Blackburn Canolfan Addysg Awyr Agored Plas Pencelli Plas Pencelli Outdoor Education Centre Pete Bursnall Cadeirydd y Fforwm Twristiaeth Cynaliadwy Chair of the Sustainable Tourism Forum Rebecca Cadbury Clwb Canwio Arberth Narberth Canoe Club David Evans Cyd-gynghorydd Addysg Awyr Agored Cynghorau Bwrdeistref Pen-y-bont ar Ogwr, Caerffili, Merthyr Tudful a Rhondda Cynon Taf Associate Adviser for Outdoor Education for Bridgend, Caerphilly, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhondda Cynon Taf Borough Councils David Liddy Comisiwn Coedwigaeth Cymru Forestry Commission Wales Charles Mathieson Parc Cenedleathol Arfordir Penfro Pembrokshire Coast National Park Chris Randall Y Gymdeithas Canwod Agored Open Canoe Association Kate Rew Y Gymdeithas Nofio Awyr Agored Outdoor Swimming Society Andy Shan Unigolyn Individual Peter Wood Gwasg Pesda Pesda Press Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance Dr Virginia Hawkins Clerc Clerk 3 16/11/2009 Meriel Singleton Dirprwy Glerc Deputy Clerk Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 9.05 a.m. The meeting began at 9.05 a.m. Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau a Dirprwyon Introduction, Apologies and Substitutions [1] Mick Bates: Bore da. Good morning. I welcome you all to this morning’s meeting of the Sustainability Committee. As ever, I have the housekeeping announcements to make first. In the event of a fire alarm, you should leave the room by the marked fire exits and follow the instructions of staff. There is no test forecast for today, so if the alarm goes off, it will be for real. Please make sure that all mobile phones, pagers and BlackBerrys are switched off as they interfere with the broadcasting equipment. I remind you that the National Assembly operates through the media of the Welsh and English languages. Headsets are provided through which you can get simultaneous translation on channel 1, and those who are hard of hearing may also use them to amplify the sound. Please do not touch any of the buttons on the microphones as that will disable the system. [2] I have received apologies for absence for today’s meeting from Karen Sinclair and Lorraine Barrett. Thank you very much. [3] Today, we have our penultimate evidence session on access to inland waterways. During item 2, we will be hearing from the Pembrokeshire Coast National Park and the Forestry Commission. We have reached agreements about the use of inland waterways on their land. Under item 3 on the agenda, we will be hearing from a number of users who have different interests and experience of using inland waterways and have, through their written submissions, put forward suggestions on how the issues may be resolved. I am pleased to announce that the Assembly bus—the wonderful Assembly bus that we used for the flooding inquiry—will be out gathering evidence as part of this inquiry. The timetable will be posted to the committee web page. The dates and locations announced today are as follows. On Friday, 20 November, we will be at the Gwydyr Hotel, Holyhead Road, Betws-y- Coed between 11.30 a.m. and 12.30 p.m.. In the afternoon, we will be in Queens Square, Wrexham, between 4 p.m. and 5 p.m.. On Saturday, 21 November, we will start in Guildhall Square, Carmarthen between 9.30 a.m. and 10.30 a.m., moving later to Merthyr Tydfil, where we will be in the Welsh Assembly Government office car park between 2 p.m. and 3 p.m.. Members, if you wish to attend those sessions, please note that, because of the timetable and my availability, we are down to one hour for gathering evidence in each of those four locations. We tried to get a session in Brecon, but it was impossible to give a firm date for availability. If any Members can come forward to say that it would be possible for them to go to Brecon, I would be willing to arrange a further evidence-gathering session there. 9.08 a.m. Ymchwiliad i Fynediad i Ddŵr Mewndirol: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth Access to Inland Water: Evidence Session [4] Mick Bates: Our first session, as I said, is with the Pembrokeshire Coast National Park and the Forestry Commission. I invite you to put your name and position on the record, please, and to make an opening statement of a couple of minutes before Members move to questions. I will start with David. Please state your name and position. 4 16/11/2009 [5] Mr Liddy: My name is Dave Liddy. I am the visitor management adviser for Forestry Commission Wales. [6] Mr Mathieson: My name is Charles Mathieson. I am the head of recreation and tourism for the Pembrokeshire Coast National Park Authority. [7] Mick Bates: Thank you very much. I invite David to make a brief opening statement of no more than two minutes in length. [8] Mr Liddy: The Forestry Commission owns more than 100,000 ha, largely of forest, but often up to the mountain tops. As you would expect, very often, it owns both sides of many rivers. Given that we are a public body, it might seem easy to release a lot of those rivers into the public domain in a simple and straightforward way: if a public body owns the river banks, off we go. 9.10 a.m. [9] In 2007, as part of a joint project with the Countryside Council for Wales, the Mawddach catchment, which runs through Coed y Brenin, a large forest block, was set up as an exemplar project to investigate the possibilities of opening up these waterways to what we shall call ‘paddle sport’. A steering group was set up to investigate that as a potential catchment. For various reasons, that turned into a rare old bun fight, and the Forestry Commission learned some hard lessons about the difficulties of managing access to open waters in that Mawddach exemplar project. [10] Most of the catchment has been designated a site of special scientific interest or a special area of conservation, and initially, our colleagues in CCW had some reservations about how we could bring such a highly designated catchment into the public domain. However, we worked long and hard with CCW, and we were able to negotiate a platform on which to move forward. While we own much of the banks of that catchment, when we purchased the freehold, the angling rights were retained by the previous owner, so we simply do not own the fishing rights to the Mawddach catchment. When the Mawddach Conservation Society and the Prysor anglers, who own those angling rights, came to the table to discuss the matter with us, they quickly got cold feet and made our lives very awkward and difficult, first by refusing to talk to us and finally by ceasing all communication with us. Our exemplar project stalled completely at that point, just when we thought that we were finally about to put to bed the issue of whether paddle sports have a negative impact on the conservation value of a river. We thought, ‘This is it; we can put it to bed’, but because of the intransigence of those angling groups, we were not able to do that. However, that is only one example in this particular catchment. [11] Nearly every scenario is different. Right through our estate, there are some instances in which we own the angling rights, and we would be able to bring more water into the public domain, but every scenario is different. That would be very resource hungry, and the Forestry Commission does not feel that it is adequately resourced to bring this issue into our current management. [12] Mick Bates: Thank you for that, and for the papers, in which you outlined those issues quite clearly for us. I will now invite Charles to contribute. [13] Mr Mathieson: Thank you, Chair, for the opportunity to give evidence. Pembrokeshire is known as a place for water recreation, but it is more coastal or estuarine, as you see on the screen. We probably have a couple of hundred miles of coast in the national park, and about 30 miles of estuary. Of inland water we have surprisingly little. We have the 5 16/11/2009 Gwaun and Nevern rivers, the Rosebush reservoir, and that is pretty much it for the national park. So, our experience is, I have to confess, very limited. However, we do have experience of managing multiple types of recreational activities in intensively used landscapes. [14] I feel that what we have to contribute is something to do with demand, first of all.
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