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BRITISH-IRISH INTER-PARLIAMENTARY BODY COMHLACHT IDIR-PHARLAIMINTEACH NA BREATAINE AGUS NA hÉIREANN _____________________________________________ TWENTY-SECOND PLENARY SESSION 26 and 27 February 2001 Kerry Suite, Killarney Park Hotel, Killarney, Co. Kerry _________________________________________________________________ OFFICIAL REPORT (Final Revised Edition) (Produced by the British-Irish Parliamentary Reporting Association) 1. Monday 26 February 2001 The sitting was opened in public at 9.35 am in the Kerry Suite, Killarney Park Hotel, Killarney, Co. Kerry, with Mr Michael O'Kennedy TD in the Chair. 1. PRELIMINARY ANNOUNCEMENTS The Co-Chairman (Mr O'Kennedy): Because we have a fairly full and busy programme today, I shall commence business. Tá fáilte roimh gach éinne anseo go Cill Áirne ach go háirithe ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh gach éinne ón Albain agus ón Bhreatain Bheag. A special word of welcome to our friends from Alba because I know from a recent visit there that the Gaelic language is still strong and vigorous there. If we cannot understand ourselves in English, maybe we sometimes will in Irish. I welcome you all to what I believe will be a very important and busy programme. Those of you who have been here before will know that we discourage the reading of newspapers at this session. Please leave the room and read what they are saying about us outside. It is a matter of normal order and courtesy to desist from reading newspapers during debates. We are in session almost as a sub-committee of parliament, so please turn off all pagers, bleepers, mobile phones while in this room. I do not use those things anyway but we are working against a very strong tide. The room is quite compact and we do not have the luxury of a public gallery. I therefore ask all non-Members who are attending to refrain from any conversation while our discussions are taking place. These proceedings do not attract parliamentary privilege. Please bear this in mind although it has never been a matter of any hazard. 2. ASSOCIATE MEMBERS AND OTHER ATTENDING THE PLENARY The Co-Chairman (Mr O'Kennedy): We have a number of associate Members for this session and, in accordance with standing orders, Rule 2 (a), the following associate Members have accepted the invitation of the Steering Committee to assume the powers and responsibilities of Members for the whole of the session: Jeff Ennis MP, Helen Jackson MP, Andrew Mackinlay MP, John McWilliam MP, Stephen O'Brien MP and Seán Doherty TD. We have apologies from Nick Ainger MP, Mary Coughlan TD, who has recently been promoted to Minister of State - I do not think we will see Deputy Coughlan here again as a Member of the Body - Celia Keaveney TD; Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin TD; Andrew Boylan TD; Robert Jackson MP; William O'Brien MP; Joe Benton MP, Lord Merlyn Rees - it must be the first time he has been absent from a meeting - Geraldine Smith MP; Sir Brian Mawhinney MP; Seamus Mallon MP and Maria Fyfe MP who is ill and I am sorry to hear that. In some cases substitutes have been nominated, but those apologies have been sent to me by the people in question and they asked me to bring them to your attention. On the Programme of Business, item 4 relates to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, who will attend to make a statement and reply to questions on behalf of the Irish Government. Members of the devolved institutions and the islands are in attendance as observers at least for the commencement of business. The Steering Committee has once more decided that they should be allowed to speak even during this debate but under the provisions of Rule 2(c) as it now stands. You know we will move to amend the Rules to give them a new and full status. Pending that determination by the Body, this morning the list of observers is as follows: Isle of Man: Mr Speaker David Cannan SHK; Northern Ireland: Ms Carmel Hanna MLA, Mr Barry McElduff MLA and Mr Donovan McClelland MLA; Scotland: Ms Patricia Ferguson MSP, Ms Cathie Craigie MSP, Mrs Margaret Ewing MP MSP, Ms Annabel Goldie MSP and Mr Iain Smith MSP Wales: Mr John Griffiths AM and Dr Dai Lloyd AM. I extend a very special welcome to those who have not been with us previously and I hope they enjoy the experience and take part as much as they wish in our proceedings. We have received apologies from the States of Guernsey and the States of Jersey who on this occasion have been unable to send a representative. 3. ADOPTION OF PROPOSED PROGRAMME OF BUSINESS The Co-Chairman (Mr O'Kennedy): I move the adoption of the proposed Programme of Business, which have been circulated. As is our custom, the Steering Committee met yesterday evening and because of events of which you are all aware, we concluded that we should set aside some time at the earliest opportunity to debate the very topical and serious issue of animal disease and particularly foot and mouth disease. A revised Programme of Business has been circulated this morning, which now includes a new notice of motion relating to foot and mouth disease tabled by the Steering Committee pursuant to Rule 12(a) and notwithstanding the provisions of Rule 10. As a consequence of this proposal, it will be necessary to conclude the debate on the proposed amendment to the Rules and the reform of the Body not later than 11.30 am. If we can do so earlier, so much the better because we need to take a ten-minute break. Ordered, That the proposed Programme of Business for the current Session, as amended, be approved.-(The Co-Chairman.) 4. PROPOSED AMENDMENT TO RULES AND REFORM OF THE BODY The Co-Chairman (Mr O'Kennedy): In view of the large number present it would be extremely helpful if those wishing to speak in the debate on the proposed amendment to the rules, which is what we will address immediately, could give their names to the Clerks. We will have to arrange the speaking times so that those who wish to contribute can do so and, if necessary, limit the speaking time to accommodate all speakers. That invitation to speak in this morning's debate on the amendment of the rules extends to our parliamentary observers as they are now. For the purposes of this debate they are not only free but also very welcome to contribute. I suggest a time limit of about four minutes per speaker. The next item is the proposed amendment to the Rules and reform of the Body. We have received notice of an amendment to this motion from Lord Robin Glentoran, submitted to us in accordance with Rule 17. The Steering Committee considered this notice and agreed that it comes within the terms envisaged by Rule 17 and, accordingly, we are satisfied that it is in order. I ask Lord Glentoran to move the amendment and then we can debate the issue. Lord Glentoran is free to make some observations in moving the amendment. Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Amendments to Rules [Doc. No. 80] be made with immediate effect-(The Co-Chairman.) Lord Glentoran: Thank you very much. I move as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment (A) contained in Document No. 80: Subsection (c), at end insert, "but should be broadly representative of the political parties represented in those institutions.". I welcome the fact that the Body is moving to a new phase. I also welcome our colleagues from Scotland, the Isle of Man, Wales and the Northern Ireland Assembly. We had considerable discussions yesterday about the timing of this and all it means, particularly to the Northern Ireland parties. However, I am sure this is the right way for the Body to be progressing. As colleagues are aware, particularly in Stormont, issues relating to party balance are very sensitive. The Northern Ireland Assembly was set up under the rules of the d'Hondt formula. I considered including that in the amendment and discussed it with one of the Clerks. However, I decided that that was going into too much detail. I thank the Steering Committee for its support. I think an amendment of this type will be and could be helpful. With luck, it will never be needed. If things were to get even more difficult in Stormont than they are now, this Body could still be a very valuable debating chamber and it would be important not to have any unbalanced representation from Stormont or from any other assemblies or parliaments involved. I beg to move. The Co-Chairman (Mr O'Kennedy): I wish to put the proposal in context before opening the debate. The document which has been circulated contains detailed notes on the proposed amendments. I draw attention to the major effects of those proposed rule changes, in the context of which Lord Glentoran's proposed amendment must be considered. As you know, the Body will be expanded if we adopt those amendments. This will allow for five Members and four Associates each from Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, and one Member and one Associate each from Guernsey, the Isle of Man and Jersey. Associate Members from the small islands will be allowed to attend as of right, but will only be allowed to vote if they are substituting for a full Member. That is in accordance with our existing standard practice and procedure. Additional places will also have to be provided on the Steering Committee, which arranges the business and prepares the agenda for all of our discussions, both at plenary and committee level.
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