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TOM TOMORROW’S CARTOON THIS MODERN WORLD HAS LONG BEEN AN INSPIRATION AND There were four of us living in a three-bedroom apartment—one guy SOLACE FOR THE NORTH AMERICAN CONTINGENT OF THE KILOMETER ZERO FAMILY. HIS dragged in a bunch of old wooden packing pallets and partitioned off a WORK APPEARS IN ALTERNATIVE NEWSPAPERS, ON SALON.COM AND IN MAGAZINES LIKE section of the living room for privacy. We were all dirt poor—I was living THE NEW YORKER. TOM TOMORROW, WHOSE REAL NAME IS DAN PERKINS, CONDUCTED on about $100 a week, which was no THIS INTERVIEW WITH KMZ FROM HIS BROOKLYN APARTMENT. mean feat in New York City even in 1981. I used to pretty much survive To start, could we get some month or so sleeping on the floor of a on ramen noodles and, when I really KMZ: biographical detail? friend-of-a-friend’s flat in the Park felt I could afford to splurge, the occa- Slope neighborhood of Brooklyn. The sional slice at Ben’s pizza. I was really, I was born on April 5, 1961 neighborhood has gentrified consider- really skinny when I left New York. in Wichita, Kansas. We TT: ably since those days, when stores moved to Michigan and then to Iowa I worked on a magazine about along Fifth Avenue would stock City, Iowa, by the time I was five— comics for a while, and then when the maybe three items—a candy bar, a foreshadowing the impermanence and magazine folded, drifted through a single record album, something like dislocation which have defined much succession of crappy jobs—making that—and have a Prohibition-style of my life, I suppose. My parents copies, doing picture framing, things shutter set into a door in the back divorced when I was about ten, and I like that. After a couple of years of where the real business of the store went off with my mother and spent living hand-to-mouth like this, with was conducted, in five and ten dollar the next few years living in Ft. no particular focus, I moved back to transactions. Lauderdale, Florida, Stone Mountain, Iowa City, followed a girlfriend to Georgia—birthplace of the modern A group of friends and I then Champaign-Urbana and then to Ku Klux Klan—and a couple of very moved to Williamsburg, which has Chicago, at which point I decided I’d small towns in Arkansas, before going become an exceedingly hip artists’ had enough of mid-western winters back to live with my father in Iowa colony, but which was in those days and headed to San Francisco. City. just a strange intersection between I actually stayed put in San Puerto Rican immigrants and Hasidic I moved to New York City for the Francisco for about twelve years and Jews, with the occasional starving first time in 1981, and spent the first would probably be there to this day, artist thrown in here and there. 2 3 I N T E R V I E W but I fell in love with an East Coast hybrids I was experimenting with, Who were your early girl and for various reasons, the only which were more about consumerism KMZ: influences? way to make it work was to move and technology. That’s where the look Well, earliest influences back East for awhile. That was about of my strip really began to develop. would go back to the stuff I five years ago now, and we’ve been TT: was reading as a little kid—Mad mag- married for two and a azine, Peanuts, and when I was a bit half years. And strangely, older, Doonesbury. I can’t overstate the this long circuitous route importance of Mad magazine at that led me back to Park time—in that long ago time before Slope, where we live, society became drenched in irony, it though as I say the was Mad that taught us to distrust neighborhood isn’t quite advertisers, politicians, and the media, as funky as it used to be. and I guess it was probably Mad that How did you taught me that cartooning was an KMZ: start out? effective way to communicate with people. Peanuts, I just loved for its As a kid—and I whimsy and creativity—at the time, mean, maybe TT: nothing else pushed the envelope the eight or nine years old— way that strip did. I’d draw these Mad mag- azine-style movie paro- As I got older, I read pretty much dies, one-pagers, things like that (on every underground comic I could get Like a lot of—though not all—car- lined notebook paper, of course). my hands on (Zap, and maybe more toonists, I have an admittedly limited Later on I experimented with various importantly Zippy the Pinhead, which artistic range, which reminds me of newspaper strip formats, different was also hugely influential) and went something Schulz said once in some things like that—but this was all stuff through a Marvel phase (X-Men, interview, something to the effect of: I was trying to develop because I Ditko’s Spiderman, Kirby’s Fantastic “If I was a really good writer, I’d be thought maybe I could sell it to a syn- Four, that sort of thing). writing novels. If I was a really good dicate. What I was really excited artist, I’d be painting pictures. I’m sort about were these collage-comic of good at both, so I’m a cartoonist.” I N T E R V I E W 2 4 I’ve heard a lot about this see it effectively dismissed as an Since the attack on the World KMZ: 1991 anti-Gulf War protest unimportant aberration on the TT: Trade Center the mainstream you attended in San Francisco and how evening news. I called up the TV sta- media are in full flag-waving mode, so it turned you into a political cartoonist. tion and yelled at their answering I would have to say that my always machine, which was less than satisfy- shaky faith is less than bolstered at This story has gotten some- ing, and then I suddenly realized— the moment. I turned down Time what simplified over the TT: and this seems painfully obvious in because I just couldn’t figure out how years—and this is mostly my own retrospect—that I had a little public to do cartoons in that small space fault—because if you go back and forum of my own. they have without letting my work look at the earlier stuff, there was devolve into cheap gags about the always a political context to the work. What is your opinion of the news. At the same time, I was offered But it had never really occurred to me current state of media and KMZ: a larger spot in US News and chose to think of myself as a political car- journalism in the USA? You turned down that instead. But the readership of US toonist. The day you mention Time magazine and were asked to leave News skews old and conservative, and specifically, I went to one of many ral- both Brill’s Content and the US News they really had no idea what to make lies against the Gulf War in which and World Report. Your work was even of my cartoons, and I was quickly there were thousands and thousands too controversial for the television pro- dropped—apparently by order of the of people marching, as far back as you gram Saturday Night Live. publisher personally. could see—and then went home to Saturday Night Live was a different story. I had a development deal with them a few years ago, which sort of fell in my lap—before this I had given almost no thought to animation, so it was like being dropped in behind the wheel of a race car barreling down the track and you don’t even know how to drive. I spent a lot of time on that project trying to come up with some- thing that had some integrity to it and trying to fight off the pressure from 2 5 I N T E R V I E W SNL to squeeze in as many cheap What is the role of an artist defined as the furthest to the left it is shots as possible. T&A jokes, racial KMZ: like yourself when it possible for any human being to pos- stereotypes, I kid you not. It was a comes to politics and activism? Why sibly go, then anyone to the left of very difficult time. I wanted to do don’t you just do a cute cartoon about Clinton is simply no longer relevant, political satire and they wanted cheap overweight cats? no longer exists in the political quick humor. debate. Similarly if the critique in You do what you have in you. Dilbert defines the discussion vis-a-vis We produced three pieces, all of I think the people who do TT: corporate downsizing, then that dis- which I think hold up pretty well, but cartoons about overweight cats gen- cussion is severely limited. Dilbert’s a the SNL people just thought about uinely believe in what they’re doing. I fine comic strip for what it is—I did stuff way too much—they’d decide on don’t think it’s something you can enough office work to enjoy it on that Friday night that a piece needed a half fake. As for the first question, I have level—but it is a comic strip about second shaved off so it would flow no good answer for you. I just do people who work in cubicles and are better. Darryl Hammond, who did what I do and hope that it strikes a resigned to their fate. It is not a comic Clinton on the show, did a Clinton chord with someone. strip about the fate of the downsized, voice for one of the cartoons, and one Why are there always or the corporate mindset responsible. of the objections was that viewers references to your criticism It does not “champion the oppressed.” would be confused, watching the KMZ: of Dilbert? cartoon and hearing Darryl’s voice. It was something that I was think- Crazy stuff like that, but I guess that’s I did one cartoon about ing about one week, maybe six, seven how TV works—too many people TT: Dilbert, back when that strip years ago. Which is all any of these obsessing over insignificant details. was first taking off and constantly cartoons really are, ultimately—just You can imagine how much fun this being written up in newspapers and something I was thinking about one was, having every microsecond scruti- magazines as “the voice of the down- week. They’re like conversations you nized and endlessly debated—particu- sized,” that sort of thing, and I was might have with the guy on the next larly in light of what does make it on bothered by that, in the same way barstool, except that they are archived the air on that show, those tedious that I was bothered by Bill Clinton’s and preserved for all time, so you find endless sketches with Goat Boy or politics being defined by his conserva- yourself constantly being called on to whatever. tive opponents as “far left,” when in defend some barstool conversation fact he was very firmly planted in the you had in 1993. middle of the road. If Clinton is I N T E R V I E W 2 6 You do a lot of work in your try’s day job.” The country is the with their view of America is in fact KMZ: cartoons with universal place, the people, the extraordinary secretly sympathetic to the Taliban? health care in the US, you have a definite absurd exuberance of giant fiberglass Secretly rooting for the terrorists and pro-environment stance, and you con- animals and palaces made of corn and mass murderers? Actually, on some stantly attack the American electoral crazy folk artists in rural Georgia and, level they do, and that’s the frighten- system and the two-party system. What yes, twin towers that pierce the sky. ing thing. I am getting truly irritated are the important political and social The nation is an ever-shifting set of by the latter-day McCarthyism spring- issues you work with in your cartoon? political priorities arising from and ing up around me. Exercising that imposed on that country—corporate “freedom to disagree” to which our Certainly the pathetic state of tax breaks, welfare reform, a few mis- president gave lip service the other the U.S. health care system is TT: siles lobbed here and there. This night does not make one a traitor. something I have returned to time seems so obvious, but apparently Freedom of speech doesn’t mean any- and again. I guess the common thread needs to be reiterated: You can love thing if it exists conditionally. And is that all of these issues have been the country and still find fault with exercising that freedom of speech simplified into sound bites which do the nation. doesn’t make you some sort of enemy not in fact reflect reality—the notion, within, some infestation that “real for instance, that a single payer health I’ve been thinking about this a lot Americans” must grudgingly tolerate care system means that government lately. Do conservatives and hawks in order to uphold their ideals. I’ll be bureaucrats will be assigning you a really believe that anyone not in line frank: if you are the sort of person doctor and denying you necessary who is stirred by the sight of an medical care. American flag waving in the breeze, I What foreign political sys- will not pit my unthinking patriotism KMZ: tems and social policies do against yours, because I would surely you find inspiring? Where would you live lose. I’m too cynical, too aware of the if it wasn’t the USA? lessons of history. There’s nowhere else I’d What in your opinion is the TT: rather live. I read a line once, KMZ: root of cause the terrorist I wish I could remember who wrote attacks on the World Trade Center and it: “Think of the nation as the coun- the Pentagon? 2 7 I N T E R V I E W I watched the towers burn alternatives, given them some hope, back further. Zbiegnew Brzezinski, TT: from the rooftop of my build- none of this would be happening who was Carter’s national security ing in Brooklyn, watched the first one now. advisor, admitted in a 1998 interview collapse. I’ve seen the aftermath of that part of the plan in funding the I don’t know. I’m actually not one earthquakes, fires, tornadoes, I’ve seen Afghan resistance before the invasion of those people who believes that the the twisted metal wreckage of the car in 1979 was to induce that invasion. world would be a better and more in which my mother died—but I’ve Asked if he regretted this in retro- peaceful place if the United States never, never seen anything so terrible spect, he stated, “Regret what? That didn’t exist—nature abhors a vacuum, as that. No honest person can claim secret operation was an excellent idea. and if this country were not the to understand with certainty what the It had the effect of drawing the geopolitical 900 pound gorilla, I’m hijackers were thinking and assigning Russians into the Afghan trap and you sure another country would take its them motives at this point is to some want me to regret it? The day that the place. But as Peter Parker the extent an exercise in hubris. Having Soviets officially crossed the border, I Amazing Spider-Man learned to his said that, we can look at the condi- everlasting sorrow as the burglar he tions which breed this sort of fanati- could have stopped later murdered cism and one of the common threads his uncle—with great power comes is almost always desperation. great responsibility. The world is a When people have nothing to live vast interconnected matrix. Borders for, they are ripe candidates for a are a more fragile metaphor than ever. group like the Taliban. And part of We can no longer afford not to the reason people in this region are so clean up after our own messes— abjectly and utterly desperate is that because something will inevitably we used them and cast them aside come back and bite us in the ass. The like a dirty tissue as soon as we were Taliban is a Frankenstein monster of done. After the Soviets pulled out of our own creation, even more than Afghanistan, so did we—leaving most people realize. Most people are behind a whole lot of guns and aware at this point that the CIA bombs and very little else. Perhaps if funded and trained these terrorists we had poured in a little humanitar- during the Soviet invasion, but it goes ian aid at that point, given people I N T E R V I E W 2 8 wrote to President Carter: We now To me, the lesson of have the opportunity of giving to the this thing should be USSR its Vietnam War. Indeed, for that religion and poli- almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry tics are highly volatile on a war unsupportable by the gov- compounds which can ernment, a conflict that brought about react explosively when the demoralization and finally the mixed. But when you breakup of the Soviet empire.” add in the hatred born of desperation, all bets My guess, and forgive me if this is are off. The hijackers breathtakingly banal, is that it’s a themselves may not combination of political anger and have been desperately religious fanaticism—a really scary poor, but without combination wherever it springs up, those conditions, nei- which is why I’m somewhat troubled You’ve always said you ther bin Laden nor the Taliban could by all the immediate talk of “God and didn’t think you could ever have risen to power. KMZ: country” in the wake of this thing. I change the world, but say you could, say just read a really smug op-ed piece in What will This Modern you were omnipotent ruler. What are the USA Today about how great that KMZ: World have to say about the first things you would do if you could response was, how great it was to see rush to war? rearrange the way humans live and God back in public life in America— interact on this planet? Personally I believe in the as if this country has ever been any- “bomb them with butter” The first thing I would do is where near as secular as the funda- TT: approach. There’s a massive humani- make the use of a car alarm mentalists pretend, as if a politician TT: tarian crisis brewing in Afghanistan, punishable by a long and mandatory could ever get elected without making and demonstrating our commitment prison sentence. Zero tolerance. This it abundantly clear that he or she to helping the people of that belea- would win me the everlasting loyalty believes fervently and wholeheartedly guered nation would probably do us a of my subjects, and I could move on in a Supreme Being, preferably of the hell of a lot more good in the long to war, famine, disease, and so on. Christian faith. term than military action. But definitely, I’d have to start with the car alarms. 2 9 I N T E R V I E W What social responsibility What are some of your writer’s own cleverness. I want to be KMZ: does the average individual KMZ: favourite books? transported by fiction. I want the lan- in a wealthy Western nation have? Why guage to soar but I also want the story Since you’re in Paris, I’d sug- don’t we all just hole up in the suburbs to captivate. gest The Last Time I Saw Paris, with our DVDs, SUVs, and high-speed TT: which is a really beautiful memoir of The philosophy of our maga- Internet connections? the Rue de la Huchette in the thirties. KMZ: zine has always been to try As I said, there are no more I’ve just finished the third book in and present our stories with as much TT: borders. There’s the old saying Tom deHaven’s Derby Dugan trilogy, truth as possible and in a way that will about a butterfly flapping its wings which is a fictional history of the make both Kilometer Zero and the story halfway around the world causing a comic strip in twentieth century subject as happy as possible. Is there hurricane, and never has this been America, but I’d recommend starting anything we could do for you that would more true than today. We can’t afford with the first one and reading them in make you really really happy? to turn our back on the world, can’t order. There’s always Raymond Prior to a few weeks ago I afford to walk away from international Chandler, whose writing exemplifies would have suggested that treaties like Kyoto and germ warfare the blending of 'high’ and 'low' art, TT: you fly me over to Paris and throw a and ABM and so on. A kid is starving something I take a certain interest in fabulous magazine release party, but I halfway around the world, and the as a cartoonist. I don’t have as much think it may be awhile before I get on next thing you know there’s a crop time for fiction as I’d like, so mostly I an airplane again. Barring that, I can’t duster overhead with a load of am grateful when a novel doesn’t really think of anything. anthrax. In this modern world, we all waste my time. Some live at ground zero. genre novelists, like Chandler in his day, and What do you think of Noam like Martin Cruz Smith Chomsky? KMZ: or James Lee Burke, are Probably the most honest simply a pure joy to TT: person in the country, there- read, whereas some fore—unfortunately—destined to be writerly novels seem like reviled and ignored. a complete waste of time to me, nothing more than testaments to the