Thursday Volume 517 4 November 2010 No. 65

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 4 November 2010

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schemes. We are talking about the nation’s front line in House of Commons protecting our environment. The Government claim to be the greenest ever, but is not the reality that the Thursday 4 November 2010 Secretary of State is prepared to sacrifice Natural England and our precious environment in a bid to win friends and credit at the Treasury? The House met at half-past Ten o’clock Mrs Spelman: I should like to countermand those suggestions. Natural England, in common with all the PRAYERS arm’s-length bodies in the DEFRA delivery network, is taking a pro rata reduction. It is required to make efficiency savings in the same way as the core Department [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] has to. None the less, there will be no changes in Natural England’s statutory functions. It will cease to undertake some activities, such as lobbying and policy Oral Answers to Questions making, which should rightly be the domain of the Department at the centre. Consideration is being given to options for improving the management of our national nature reserves because that is consistent with a big ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS society approach. Biodiversity The Secretary of State was asked— Natural England 2. Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): What plans her Department has to maintain levels of biodiversity. [21641] 1. Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): What steps she is taking to reform Natural England; and if The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and she will make a statement. [21640] Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): Tackling biodiversity loss is one of my Department’s top priorities. I have just The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and returned from international negotiations in Nagoya Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): First, I welcome where the UK played a pivotal role in securing agreement the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) and her on the ambitious new framework to halt biodiversity new team to the Front Bench. I enjoyed cordial relations loss. The challenge now is to implement this domestically.In with her predecessors in the short time we were opposite the spring, I intend to publish a White Paper outlining each other and I hope that cordiality will continue. the Government’s vision for the natural environment, The Department for Environment, Food and Rural backed up with practical action to deliver that ambition. Affairs has been working closely with Natural England on substantial reforms to transform it into a leaner, Annette Brooke: I thank the Secretary of State for her more efficient front-line delivery body that is focused answer. Given the Government’s intention to sell off a strongly on the Government’s ambitions for the substantial part of the forest estate, what measures will environment. be in place to ensure the biodiversity potential of this land and to ensure that the commitments in the Forestry Julian Smith: I thank the Secretary of State for that Commission’s forest design plans will be fully implemented? response. Will she give a little more detail regarding the Mrs Spelman: I can give the hon. Lady clear assurances impact of the comprehensive spending review on the on this point, but we need to start with a little myth-busting two stewardship schemes that are run by Natural England on the back of press speculation. Only 18% of forests and how she sees that impact progressing in coming and woodland in England are owned by the state and it years? is wrong to confuse ownership with any suggestion of a reduction in biodiversity. It is quite right, and in the Mrs Spelman: I am delighted to tell my hon. Friend spirit of the coalition agreement, to consider giving the that as a result of the comprehensive spending review, community who live nearest to the forest the opportunity both types of stewardship scheme will be maintained. to own it, as that community and civil society are most There will be new entrants to both the entry-level and likely to give it the best protection. Finally, I should like the higher-level stewardship schemes. We have ambitions to reassure her by clarifying that not one tree can be to increase by about 80% the number of farmers in the felled without a licence being issued by my Department. higher-level stewardship scheme and to increase qualitatively In the last analysis, we are committed to forest biodiversity the environmental benefits provided under the entry-level and to enhancing biodiversity. Our forests are among scheme. the richest of our genetic resources and we have every intention of protecting them. Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab): Natural England is the nation’s principle conservation agency Mr Speaker: We need to be pithier from now on. That and our champion of biodiversity. In the name of should be pretty clear. reform, the Government are leaving it with no choice but to hand over 140 national nature reserves to anyone Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): May I begin by who will take them on, to put our network of national thanking the Secretary of State for welcoming me to my trails up for grabs and to cut back on the expert support new role and for the briefing that she gave me on that is vital to delivering the environmental stewardship Nagoya? I am sure that the whole House will join me in 1027 Oral Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 1028 welcoming the new fund that the Government have Forestry Commission pledged in order to deliver international biodiversity benefits through international forestry. 3. Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): What recent On Government plans to maintain biodiversity at estimate she has made of the monetary value of the home, however, we have seen a series of deeply worrying land managed by the Forestry Commission. [21643] moves from the right hon. Lady over the past three months. The Government plan to sell off or simply give 10. Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): away 140 national nature reserves; our national parks, What plans she has to sell or lease part of the Forestry which a Labour Government began in 1949, will suffer Commission estate. [21652] a catastrophic 30% cut to their budgets, leaving park workers unemployed, our national trails abandoned The Minister of State, Department for Environment, and precious habitats neglected; and her Department Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): There is an has announced a review of England’s forests, seeing ongoing programme of sales run by the Forestry them sold to the highest bidder—asset stripping our Commission, year on year, to achieve operational efficiency. natural heritage. Is it not the case that she preaches In the 2009-10 accounts, the public forest estate in environmental evangelism around the world and practices England was valued at £700 million. That is the net environmental vandalism at home? book value; it does not necessarily reflect the true market value. I intend to consult on proposals for new Mrs Spelman: That is a disappointing opener from ownership options for the public forest estate in England, the hon. Lady. She appears not to understand that her and on how to secure the important public benefits that own party when in government would have had to make they provide. cuts, and there will be no credibility to her accusations unless she tells the House where she would have made Kerry McCarthy: I think that for once, given the savings. In any event, however, there is no suggestion answers that we have heard today, The Daily Telegraph that we are poised to sell off nature reserves. Can she might be right, because it says that the Government not see that it is not necessarily for the state to do cannot see the forest for the fees. However, can the everything? The Wildlife Trusts welcome the opportunity Minister give a categorical assurance that, contrary to to be more involved in the management of our nature other press reports, if Government-owned forest is sold reserves. off, it will not be sold off to developers to be turned into things such as Center Parcs and golf courses?

Mary Creagh indicated dissent. Mr Paice: I am delighted to have the opportunity to debunk that absurd notion. As my right hon. Friend the Mrs Spelman: The hon. Lady shakes her head, but I Secretary of State has said, before trees can be felled, suggest that she ask them. As for selling off the forests, one requires a felling licence from the Forestry Commission. she just heard my explanation that it is wrong to confuse The Forestry Commission will continue to have that ownership with the quality of environmental protection, role, even through those disposals, if that is what happens; and I believe that the communities and charities that and, of course, planning consent would be required to would like to be more involved in protecting and enhancing undertake any of those things, such as golf courses or our forest biodiversity welcome our suggestions. Center Parcs. We have no intention of seeing our forest damaged; we want to maintain the public benefits that Mary Creagh: The truth is that the Government have we already have. reserved their most vicious spending cut for a 30% cut in environmental spending. We know that in the spending Caroline Lucas: Will the Minister make a commitment review, the right hon. Lady caved in early to the Chancellor’s that all land transferred from the Forestry Commission’s pressure, and that she gave away too much too quickly. control will be covered by legally binding commitments Why did she sell out the country’s environment to the on new owners to maintain current policies for Chancellor? environmentally and socially beneficial use, especially those on the restoration of planted ancient woodland and on public access? Can he also put on the record Mrs Spelman: The hon. Lady has to answer the what will happen to the funds raised from the proposed question about where she would have made the cuts. new programme to sell off those woodlands?

Mary Creagh indicated dissent. Mr Paice: There would be no point in having a consultation if I were to announce the results of it now, Mrs Spelman: The hon. Lady shakes her head, but so I am not going to do so. However, I can tell the hon. her Government were committed to a 50% reduction in Lady, as my right hon. Friend has said and I have just capital. Perhaps she would like to identify in the said, that we have absolutely no intention of allowing Department’s budget what she would have done. What I any public benefit of our woodland, be it access, biodiversity can tell the House is that, going into those negotiations or carbon storage, to be damaged by whatever action with the Treasury, we took a strategic approach, because we take on public ownership. it was important for us to protect as much of the capital as possible. Her party, had it been in government, Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): Is would have cut the capital budget by 50%, but we the Minister aware of the Forestry Commission’s succeeded in reducing that to a 34% reduction, meaning involvement in a pilot flood protection project to protect that the bulk of our flood defence capital has been Pickering from future floods by planting a great number protected. of trees to soak up the excess water and prevent it from 1029 Oral Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 1030 entering Pickering? Will he give me an assurance today Farming Industry that that project will not be at risk from any future cutbacks and that the Government will continue with 4. Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South their tree planting programme? Pembrokeshire) (Con): What steps her Department is taking to assist the farming industry to become more Mr Paice: It is worth making the point to my hon. competitive. [21644] Friend that under the previous Government the amount of trees and new woodland planted in this country fell 13. Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): What dramatically. The Opposition, as they now are, need to steps her Department is taking to assist the farming account for that. My hon. Friend is absolutely right; industry to become more competitive. [21656] trees have a vital role in flood prevention and alleviation, and although I do not know the detail of the scheme to The Minister of State, Department for Environment, which she refers, I have no doubt that it will continue in Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): The Government some guise. are determined to help our farming industry play its full role in the food supply chain by clawing back markets lost to imports and by increasing exports. We are therefore Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): ConFor, changing the whole culture of regulation to one of trust the Confederation of Forest Industries, represents sawmills rather than one of threat. We provide investment assistance and other processing businesses, and it values the supply under the rural development programme and we are of timber that it receives from the Forestry Commission working with the industry on knowledge transfer, skills estate because of its quality and consistency. As he development and sustainability issues. considers the sale of some of that estate, will the Minister consult ConFor and the timber industries to ensure that their interests are taken into consideration? Simon Hart: I thank the Minister for his answer. Will he reassure members of the Farmers Union of Wales, whom I met earlier this week, that he is making progress Mr Paice: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I assure on the creation of a supermarket ombudsman? him that I have already had consultations and discussions with ConFor. I have discussed various options with its Mr Paice: As my hon. Friend knows, the legislative representatives, who, obviously, will submit a response aspects of that issue relate to the Department for Business, to the consultation when we launch it. My hon. Friend Innovation and Skills, but I assure him that I am in is absolutely right that a number of the timber trade close contact with my colleagues. We are determined to businesses rely on a constant supply of timber from the press ahead with the supermarket adjudicator, as Forestry Commission, and I am very much aware that recommended by the Competition Commission a year that factor will have to be taken into account to ensure or so ago. that our important timber industry gets continuity of supply. Anne Marie Morris: Animal disease is costly to the Government and farmers, both financially and emotionally. Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): I In 2009-10, the Government spent £330 million on thank the Minister for his letter of last week about the animal health and welfare, and the foot and mouth future of Forestry Commission land, even if it is regrettable outbreak in 2001, which devastated the local farming that it has not been accompanied by a full statement to economy in Devon, is believed to have cost the UK the House. £8 billion. I recently had a meeting with farmers in Newton Abbot, and they are very concerned that the The Royal Society for the Protection of Birds and the Government will not listen to them about shaping plans, Woodland Trust have said that the sale price for that going forward, for cost and risk sharing— ancient forest land does not match its environmental or social value and that they lack the resources to purchase Mr Speaker: Order. I know that the hon. Lady is a the land. Why has the Minister failed to give the House new Member and I appreciate her commitment to the any assurance that the money raised from this fire sale House, but far too many questions are prefaced with of English woodland will be reinvested in environmental substantial descriptive statements. That must not happen. protection or green jobs, rather than simply ending up I ask her for a quick sentence, and then we will move on. in the Treasury’s coffers? Is not the reality that big business, not the big society, will benefit from this land Anne Marie Morris: Will the Minister meet me and grab? some of my local farmers to discuss their ideas on how to reduce cost and risk sharing? Mr Paice: I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his new position—and long may he hold it, if that is the best Mr Paice: Yes, I will happily meet my hon. Friend. If that he can do. I had hoped that we could have a you will allow me one more sentence, Mr Speaker, rational debate about the future of our forests. Much of under the cost and responsibility discussions I am absolutely what the hon. Gentleman said is absolute nonsense. As determined, and I will reassure my hon. Friend’s farmers I have repeatedly said, we are determined to protect our on this, that they will have a major role in formulating forests and increase the rate of new planting in this disease control policy. country, beyond the failure of his Government, whom he supported. That is what has to be done. Working Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): May I towards new ownership does not in any way countermand ask the Minister how the Government will use their new the important value of our British forests, which we buying standards for food in the public sector to support intend to maintain. British farmers in the 88% of public sector food purchases 1031 Oral Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 1032 not covered by the new Government standards? My Richard Benyon: I understand my hon. Friend’s point. private Member’s Bill next week is the ideal opportunity I know her local fishing community and how much she for a detailed debate in Committee where we can discuss stands up for them. I am happy to meet them and how we can support farmers. discuss this. As we go forward with our negotiations with the Commission on catch quotas for next year, we Mr Paice: I can tell the hon. Lady that I am certainly have to do so on the basis of knowledge of what is there looking forward to next week’s debate on her private and on the basis of science. That sometimes requires us Member’s Bill and I congratulate her on introducing it to ask fishermen to take actions that can add to their to enable us to have that debate. We will consult on the working day. I do not want to burden people with Government’s buying standards in the next few weeks regulation—that is not the direction that the Government and we will be launching them early next year. They will are going in—and I am happy to meet my hon. Friend apply compulsorily to central Government—we have and the MMO to see whether we can find another way determined that we should drive these standards forward— forward, but we need an accurate declaration of stocks and they will include the need to ensure that food in those areas. procured by the Government is produced to the standards that we expect of our own farmers. That is the best way Landfill to ensure fair competition in public procurement. 6. Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): Does the What discussions she has had with the Secretary of Minister accept, in the interests of what he has said State for Communities and Local Government on the about competitiveness, that the decision to abolish the likely effects of the outcome of the comprehensive national Agricultural Wages Board will not contribute spending review on the funding available to reduce the to competitiveness but will simply reduce the living amount of waste going to landfill. [21646] standards and wages of our agricultural workers? The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): We have worked Mr Paice: I am afraid that I do not agree with the closely with the Department for Communities and Local hon. Lady. That legislation has been in place for 60 years Government to understand cost pressures on local authority and industrial relations and wages negotiations have waste management over the spending review period and changed dramatically over those years. It is worth pointing have taken these into account in the overall local government out that the previous Government, in office for 13 years, settlement. Significantly increased financial flexibility did not bring back any of the other wages boards that will free local authorities to allocate resources to meet we had abolished. The present wages board does not their priorities and make continued efficiency savings allow salaries, it does not allow proper piecework rates while continuing to deliver our overall environmental and it does not allow annualised rates. Those are all goals for waste management. measures that modern labour relations require. That is why it needs to go and all workers will be protected by Dr Whitehead: Has the Secretary of State looked at the national minimum wage regulations, which apply to last year’s estimate by the Waste and Resources Action every other worker in this country. Programme suggesting that there will be an additional 3 million tonnes of dried municipal recyclates circulating Under-10-metre Fishing Fleet by 2015, while all-materials recycling facilities would be used up and 60% of local authority areas would have insufficient capacity? What has changed in this analysis 5. Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): For what since May 2010 other than her Department’s withdrawal reasons her Department has instructed the under-10- of seven private finance initiative waste projects and the metre fishing fleet to maintain log books. [21645] cutting of local authority budgets by 28%?

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Mrs Spelman: I invite the hon. Gentleman, who has a Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): great interest in this subject, to look at some municipal The Marine Management Organisation has introduced waste statistics that have just been published this morning. a requirement for masters of under-10-metre fishing The more recent data show three things: first, that we vessels fishing in, or transiting, either International are producing less waste; secondly, that we are recycling Council for the Exploration of the Sea areas IVc and more waste; and thirdly, therefore, that we are sending VIId, or ICES areas VIId and VIIe in the same fishing less to landfill. That is what makes us confident that the trip, to complete and submit an EU logbook. The new 2020 targets can be met with fewer publicly funded requirement has been introduced to provide greater projects. assurance over the accuracy of catch information for fish stocks in those areas, following concerns expressed Dangerous Dogs about potential misdeclaration of catch areas. 7. Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): Laura Sandys: As a great supporter of the under-10-metre When she plans to respond to the recent consultation fishing fleet, I hope that the Minister will point out to conducted by her Department on dangerous dogs; and the MMO that this is a highly bureaucratic, quite impractical if she will make a statement. [21648] approach for some of the smaller boats. Will he urge the MMO to consider working much more closely with the The Minister of State, Department for Environment, local patrol fleets, which know these local fisheries Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): The consultation much better than anybody else? closed on 1 June and received 4,250 responses. The 1033 Oral Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 1034

Government will be publishing a summary of those Mr Cunningham: Can the Minister tell me what impact responses and will make an announcement on the way the latest increase in the EU budget will have on the forward very shortly. common agricultural policy?

Luciana Berger: In 2008, almost 6,000 people needed Mrs Spelman: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will hospital treatment for injuries sustained by dangerous appreciate that the EU budget needs to reflect the dogs. The Communication Workers Union reports that straitened economic circumstances that all European every year between 5,000 and 6,000 of its members member states are experiencing. Last weekend, the Prime suffer injuries by dogs. Every month, three guide dogs Minister met the German Chancellor, Frau Merkel, are attacked. In the past three years, five children have and earlier this week he met President Sarkozy from been killed by dangerous dogs, including John Paul France, to have important discussions about the realities Massey in my constituency. Will the Minister seriously of the size of the EU budget. Part of those considerations consider the draft legislation proposed by the Association will be the allocation that goes to the common agricultural of Chief Police Officers, the RSPCA and the National policy. Dog Warden Association in order adequately to deal with this problem? Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): We all know that a successful outcome to the common agricultural policy negotiations is vital for Britain’s rural communities. In Mr Paice: I do not think anybody in this House can an interview on “Farming Today”, the right hon. Lady be unaware of the increasing problems of dangerous said that the Treasury had conducted a regional impact dogs to which the hon. Lady refers, and the tragedy of assessment of the CSR, and that her Department had John Paul Massey and other children who have been considered its rural impact. I asked her Department for killed by dogs in recent years. Clearly, we do have to act. a copy of that rural impact assessment, and the reply I can assure her that my noble Friend Lord Henley, who from the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, leads on these matters, will be taking account of the Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. Member for Newbury proposals to which she refers. We should understand (Richard Benyon), stated: that we need to find a way forward that addresses the real problem of people who are already, in many cases, “DEFRA has not carried out a formal assessment of the impact of the spending review on rural matters.”—[Official Report, disobeying the law by holding dogs which are classified 1 November 2010; Vol. 517, c. 606W.] as dangerous dogs. It is those people we need to attack rather than the much larger number whose dogs are Once and for all, can the Secretary of State tell the perfectly harmless. House whether the rural impact assessment exists? Mrs Spelman: As I am sure the hon. Lady will appreciate, Dr John Pugh (Southport) (LD): We do not let a it is not just the decisions made at DEFRA that have criminal or unsuitable person have lawful possession of implications for rural communities. As the Government’s a firearm or a weapon. Given the known temperament rural champion, DEFRA is therefore undertaking an of certain breeds of dog, could we not insist on a fit and assessment of the implications of other Departments’ proper person test as a precondition of owning a dangerous elements of the spending review across rural areas. For dog? After all, criminals seem to have a proclivity for example, the Department for Culture, Media and Sport precisely these breeds. has made some positive decisions arising from the spending review, including the roll-out of superfast broadband in Mr Paice: As I have said, that proposition and many rural areas, that will have a positive effect on rural areas. others are being considered by my noble Friend, and he The matter needs to be regarded in the round, and that will make his announcement shortly. My hon. Friend work has been undertaken since the announcement of needs to recognise that to take that approach would the decisions affecting all Departments was made on require an immense amount of regulation and control 20 October. about who was able to purchase dogs, which would then feed back through the whole supply chain of puppies Local Rural Environments and become quite a mammoth undertaking. Nevertheless, it is worth considering, as with all other propositions. 9. Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con): If she will discuss with the Secretary of State for Communities Common Agricultural Policy and Local Government proposals to extend the power of communities to protect local rural environments. [21650] 8. Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): What recent discussions she has had with her EU The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for counterparts on reform of the common agricultural Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): policy. [21649] The Government are committed to reforming the current top-down planning system to give communities far The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and greater powers to shape their neighbourhoods and share Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): I, along with in the benefits of growth. In particular, neighbourhood other DEFRA Ministers, regularly meet our EU plans will give communities the freedom to bring forward counterparts to discuss reform of the common agricultural more development than is set out in the local authority policy. The Minister of State and I attended the Informal plan, or to introduce more localised rural environmental Agriculture Council, where CAP reform was discussed, protection policies. The Department for Environment, and most recently I hosted the German Agriculture Food and Rural Affairs will work closely with the Minister to discuss a range of issues of common interest, Department for Communities and Local Government including reform of the CAP. in taking that forward. 1035 Oral Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 1036

Matthew Hancock: I thank the Minister. To ensure Planning Inspectorate that will have much more democratic that there is public support for important renewable accountability. I hope that as many of her constituents energy programmes, does the Minister agree that it is as possible can contribute to the consultation before crucial that such projects are put in the right place, and 19 November, but I will discuss her views with colleagues that projects such as onshore wind farms are not put in elsewhere in government. spectacularly beautiful parts of the country where there is no local support? Will he visit my spectacular part of Agricultural Wages Board the country in Suffolk, to see just how beautiful it is?

Richard Benyon: I am happy to inform my hon. 12. Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Friend that I will be spending Christmas in his constituency, Cleveland) (Lab): What assessment she has made of the because my in-laws live there. likely effects of the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board on wages and working conditions in the farming The importance of renewables is known and agreed and food production sectors. [21654] upon throughout the House, and the Government recognise the value of increasing the amount of electricity that we produce from renewable energy.However, we also recognise The Minister of State, Department for Environment, the genuine local concerns, which have to be included in Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): Abolition of the planning process. We are reforming the planning the board will allow modern employment practices system so that it will give local communities more of a within the agricultural and food packaging industry, say. We want to get that balance right, because it has which will help the industry develop and provide more become skewed in recent years. job opportunities. Workers will retain any existing contractual rights in place at the time of abolition. New George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con): As workers will be protected by general employment legislation, part of his discussions with the DCLG, will the Minister including the national minimum wage, as with workers consider transferring responsibility for the management in all other sectors of the economy. A full impact of the rural development programme for England to assessment and equality impact assessment will be made local enterprise partnerships where they wish to take on available during the legislative process. that role? Tom Blenkinsop: How does abolishing an organisation Richard Benyon: The Department is currently considering that ensures that workers get 2p above the national the best way of handling the RDPE budget in future minimum wage support growth in rural communities years, and we will certainly keep hon. Members informed. such as mine in east Cleveland and in the rural economy?

Covanta (Mid Bedfordshire) Mr Paice: The hon. Gentleman puts his finger on the nonsense. What is the point of having the whole 11. Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con): What superstructure of the Agricultural Wages Board simply recent discussions she and officials of her Department to provide a 2p-an-hour premium over the minimum have had with Covanta on its planned projects in Mid wage? That is part of the justification for saying that the Bedfordshire constituency. [21653] board is not necessary. I stand with the hon. Gentleman and other Opposition Members in wanting to see all The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for farm and agricultural workers treated properly and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): receive a fair day’s pay for a fair day’s work, but we need I can confirm that there have been no recent discussions to bring agricultural wages regulations into the present between DEFRA Ministers and Covanta about its planned day so that the modern, efficient businesses in my projects in my hon. Friend’s constituency. DEFRA constituency and his can grow, expand and provide officials have attended meetings between Covanta and more job opportunities, not fewer. local authorities about Covanta’s planned projects there, as part of the standard procedure of supporting local Badgers (Bovine Tuberculosis) authorities in their waste management procurement processes. 14. Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): What Nadine Dorries: The Infrastructure Planning Commission recent representations she has received on the proposed has begun an online registration process for Mid cull of badgers to reduce the spread of bovine Bedfordshire constituents to register their intent to tuberculosis. [21657] object to the Covanta proposals. That process depends upon constituents having read a 7,000-page document. The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Will the Secretary of State and the Minister support me Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): A public in a call to halt the online registration process today, so consultation is currently under way on a badger control that the irregularities of it can be examined, and possibly policy to tackle bovine tuberculosis. As of yesterday so that it can be aborted and revisited at a later stage? evening, we have received 1,613 responses from a variety of individuals and organisations. I would encourage Richard Benyon: I am interested in that process, which anyone with a view to respond to the consultation, fulfils part of the greater democratic accountability that which closes on 8 December. We will be making a the Government are talking about for decisions such as decision on the Government’s approach early next year. the one in my hon. Friend’s constituency, about which I know she feels strongly. That is why we are abolishing Mrs Glindon: What public order advice has the Minister the IPC and replacing it with an organisation within the received on badger cull licences? 1037 Oral Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 1038

Mr Paice: We have been consulting the Home Office Duncan Hames: In the Secretary of State’s role of and police forces in areas where we think culls might leading mainstream sustainability across the Government, occur, and we will obviously take their advice forward. I will she continue to meet the designated green Ministers do not want to prejudge the outcome of the consultation from each Department to ensure that sustainability is or, indeed, our consideration of it, but the hon. Lady the organising principle behind all that they do? puts her finger on a very important point, which has to be addressed in the overall approach that we adopt. I Mrs Spelman: I give my hon. Friend that assurance. can assure her that we are talking with the relevant Sustainable development cannot be delivered by one bodies and authorities. Government Department alone. In fact, the Cabinet Office has a cross-cutting role and will report on pan- Sugar Beet Industry Government progress against the targets for the sustainable operations of the Government estate. The latest 15. Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): performance data will be published by the end of the What steps her Department is taking to support the year. sugar beet industry. [21658] Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab): One key performance The Minister of State, Department for Environment, objective on environmental sustainability is protection Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): As my hon. from flooding. The Association of British Insurers has Friend knows, supporting the farming sector is fundamental expressed disappointment at the Government’s cuts to to my Department’s business. The sugar beet sector flood defence spending, and the Institute of Civil Engineers remains heavily regulated by the common agricultural estimates that the cuts could cost us £4.8 billion in policy, and it is expected that it will be considered future. How will those cuts affect the insurance premiums during the forthcoming round of CAP reforms in response and excesses of those 5.5 million British properties that to the European Union budget review. The UK are currently at risk from flooding? Can she give a Government will seek an outcome where our sugar beet guarantee that the cuts will not lead to any properties industry can thrive in a more competitive and sustainable becoming either uninsurable or unmortgageable? environment. Mrs Spelman: I can assure the House that the Mr Ruffley: The Minister will understand that the Government are working very closely with the ABI on greater use of biofuels in this country will not only cut the question of insurance. Its statement of principles CO emissions, but give a vital boost to East Anglian are up for renegotiation in 2013. My impression of the 2 sugar beet growers. British Sugar would like to know situation is different from the hon. Gentleman’s, because what the Government are doing to provide incentives to actually the ABI welcomed the fact that much of the companies such as itself to invest in future biofuel capital for flood defences was protected, so the Government production. Can the Minister tell us? can spend £2.1 billion on flood defences within the spending review period. There will be an 8% reduction Mr Paice: Incentives for biofuel production are primarily per annum, but a lot of that can be absorbed in efficiencies, a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State as the Environment Agency demonstrated this year by for Energy and Climate Change, but I can assure my building more than its target of flood defences hon. Friend that we fully recognise the pioneering work notwithstanding a 5.5% reduction in its resources. that British Sugar has done at the Wissington factory in Norfolk, where it produces biofuels and uses the heat Child Labour (Farming and Food Sectors) generated as a by-product to grow tomatoes in glasshouses. I can also assure him that we are determined to encourage 17. Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): and enable our sugar industry to contribute just as What recent discussions she has had with the much to biofuels as to our sugar supply. However, in Gangmasters Licensing Authority on the use of child terms of the detail, he needs to address himself to my labour in the farming and food industry sectors. right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy and [21662] Climate Change. The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Environmental Sustainability Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): The Gangmasters Licensing Authority licenses labour providers in the 16. Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): What agriculture, food processing and shellfish-gathering sectors, discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues on and also enforces the Gangmasters (Licensing) Act 2004. progress by the Government towards its performance It does not have responsibility for enforcing legislation objectives on environmental sustainability. [21661] on child labour—that falls to the police, who work alongside local authorities’ children’s services departments. The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Nevertheless, the GLA played an important role in Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): This Government liaising with the relevant authorities in the recent very are committed to showing leadership on sustainability shocking case of Romanian children found picking through our own decisions and policies. I am discussing spring onions in Worcestershire. ways to mainstream sustainable development across Government, specifically focusing on Cabinet-level working, Gordon Banks: The Minister is right that we are all policy making and the Government’s own operations shocked at the news of those Romanian children. I take and procurement with Cabinet colleagues. I have also on board what he said about the GLA, but does he feel spoken to the Chair of the Environmental Audit Committee that given the remoteness of some locations where to discuss how Government can be held to account for people are expected to work in the agricultural sector, our performance against our commitments. managing the possibility of child exploitation is difficult? 1039 Oral Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 1040

Mr Paice: As the hon. Gentleman knows, children (Simon Hart), the Minister rightly supported the below the age of 13 are not permitted to work other Government policy of enforcing the grocery code supply than in certain parts of the entertainment industry. He practice. However, will he acknowledge that there is will also know that restrictions apply to the number of anxiety in the farming community about the fact that hours that 13 to 16-year-olds can work and that a the Government may not be introducing this legislation licence must be obtained from the local authority before soon enough. Can he reassure us that they will take the such employment begins. Let us therefore be under no earliest opportunity to bring it forward? doubt that if children are employed in agriculture, they are employed illegally, unless they are licensed in the Mr Paice: May I recognise and pay tribute to the way I described. sterling work that my hon. Friend has done on this matter over a number of years in bringing forward this The hon. Gentleman mentioned the remoteness of proposition, which is now Government policy? I can much agricultural activity. I entirely understand his reassure him that I am constantly talking to my colleagues point, but I do not think that we should allow that in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills incident—I cannot comment on the detail—to make us and urging them to bring this forward, because I fully think that such practices are rife all over the country. recognise its importance to the whole of the agriculture The vast majority of farmers and fruit and vegetable industry. growers behave properly towards their work force and ensure that they comply with employment legislation. Topical Questions We need to ensure that breaches in the law, as might have happened in that case, are dealt with appropriately. T1. [21666] Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): If she will make a statement on her departmental Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): The responsibilities. Romanian children were found working in my constituency. The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Many of the local farmers use migrant labourers. Has Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): I am sure that the Minister any general advice for those farmers on the Members on both sides of the House will want to employment of migrant labour? welcome the agreement secured in Nagoya, not least because, as Members will know, the previous Government, Mr Paice: I can say to my hon. Friend quite clearly and many before them, sought over a long period to that the most important thing that anybody who wants secure agreement on a protocol on access to, and benefit to employ migrant labour—or, indeed, any non-local sharing of, genetic resources, putting in place the tools labour—should do is ensure that they are dealing with a to help countries halt the loss of biodiversity. It is right licensed gangmaster. They should ask to see the certificate for us all to pay tribute to the officials in the Department or licence of the gangmaster proposing to bring the for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs who have labour on to the farm. That way they can all be reassured worked so hard for so long to achieve this agreement. they are doing the right thing. On my way back, I represented the UK at the closing Farming Industry ceremony of Expo 2010 in Shanghai, and I am delighted to be able to tell the House that the UK won the top award for a pavilion part-funded by DEFRA on the 18. Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): What theme of biodiversity, and that the Chinese premier steps her Department is taking to assist the farming himself recognised its excellence. I would like to thank industry to become more competitive. [21664] the Foreign and Commonwealth Office staff who delivered this considerable achievement—Simon Featherstone, who The Minister of State, Department for Environment, rescued the project, and Carma Elliot and her team, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): I refer my who spent four years driving the project to its successful hon. Friend to the answer I gave a few moments ago. conclusion. Neil Parish: This country has a highly competitive Kerry McCarthy: In June, the Secretary of State said pig and poultry industry that is completely unsubsidised that the Hunting Act 2004 had not been a demonstrable and relies heavily on imported feed. Will the Minister success and was difficult to enforce, but figures published assure us that we can get a greater threshold when by the Department last year showed 57 prosecutions in allowing imports of non-genetically modified feed into 2009—an average of one every week—and more convictions the country, otherwise we will export our industry abroad? than any other piece of wildlife legislation. How do Ministers square that with her belief that it has not been Mr Paice: My hon. Friend makes an important point. a demonstrable success? Discussions are taking place in Europe about the threshold for the import of GM soya, predominantly, which is The Minister of State, Department for Environment, what he is talking about, and I can assure him that we Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): If the hon. will be taking a constructive view to those negotiations. Lady examines those figures more deeply, she will find Quite clearly it would be pointless to deprive our livestock that most of them are to do with what is known as sector of something in a way that simply means we illegal hare coursing on land where the owner has not import more livestock products that have been fed on given permission for that to take place—let alone the GM food. fact that the process is currently illegal under the 2004 Act. The Government have said that they will bring forward Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): Farmers clearly cannot legislation. It will be a free vote in the House, and she be competitive if supermarkets have got them in an arm will have an opportunity to make her statements and to lock. In response to the question from the hon. Member vote accordingly when the Government introduce that for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire legislation. 1041 Oral Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 1042

T3. [21670] Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): May I thank and the labelling issue will certainly be examined as part the Secretary of State for having announced today that of that. I recognise the strength of feeling to which my she will give permission for the £14.25 million Banbury hon. Friend refers. flood alleviation scheme? It will be really welcomed in Banbury. It is being funded partially by the Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): I am Environment Agency, partially by others such as sure that Ministers share my disappointment that last Cherwell district council, and will enable the Banbury week’s talks aimed at resolving the mackerel dispute canal side regeneration scheme to go ahead, which will between Iceland, the Faroe Islands, Norway and the be very welcome. May I simply thank her and Ministers EU ended without resolution. The ongoing uncertainty for doing the right thing? is causing great distress to the pelagic fleet and parts of the processing sector in my constituency, where much of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the industry is based. Those people have much to lose Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): and little to gain in the negotiations. Will the Minister I am grateful to my hon. Friend. The Banbury scheme is update the House on the outcome of those negotiations, a prime example of bringing together business, organisations and assure us that the Government will take a robust such as Railtrack, the local authority and the Environment line in those talks to defend our historic fishing rights Agency. That is a really important partnership, and a and to ensure that the EU does not acquiesce to the model for schemes elsewhere in the country. I am delighted unreasonable and environmentally destructive demands that it is going ahead. My hon. Friend can take credit being made by Iceland and the Faroes? for frequently cornering me in the Lobby to show his support for the scheme. Richard Benyon: I am well aware of the issue’s importance to the hon. Lady’s constituents and many others. The T2. [21667] Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): The UK has been robust in its attitude to the Icelandic and European Food Safety Authority has concluded Faroese proposal to damage a sustainable stock. We that the major factor causing poor welfare in dairy fear the risk that it may have on the Marine Stewardship cows is genetic selection to produce high yields. Given Council’s accreditation for the stock, and its impact on proposals to intensify milk production for higher her constituents and many others. I assure her that we yields, such as those planned at Nocton, will the have been robust, we are being robust, and we will Secretary of State agree urgently to review the welfare continue to be robust, as I believe is the Commission. code for dairy cows in the UK, and to meet a delegation of cross-party MPs and non-governmental T5. [21672] Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) organisations to discuss how her Department can (Con): Will the Minister tell me what impact the ensure that its code takes into account the latest comprehensive spending review has had on flood scientific advice and ensures that any new dairies do defences, and particularly the Folkestone to Cliff End not compromise cow welfare? erosion and flood strategy, which is important for maintaining the sea defences along the Romney marsh Mr Paice: I am happy to meet the hon. Gentleman coast, and to my constituency and that of my hon. and others to discuss the matter, but I assure him that Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber the Department puts welfare at the top of our agenda, Rudd)? as I hope our record to date shows. However, we must be guided by science, which is why I am looking forward Richard Benyon: My hon. Friend will be pleased that to the results of the three-year study being carried out we managed to protect the flood budget in the in Scotland on intensive dairy farming, and the work at comprehensive spending review. The amount is reducing— Harper Adams university college on the same issue. [Interruption.] At 8% a year it is considerably lower After that, we will be in a better position to know the than the 50% capital cuts the Labour Government precise answers. I remind him that the Farm Animal proposed. An 8% cut across the piece is a considerable Welfare Council, which the Department normally listens advantage. to, has said clearly that welfare is a function more of I have seen the schemes in my hon. Friend’s constituency, management than of scale. and I have met the excellent Defend our Coast community group. That is exactly the sort of arrangement whereby T4. [21671] Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): we deliver more by working in a partnership, and deliver Given that the Department would like all animals to be a better result at the end of the day. I hope that many of stunned before slaughter, may we please have some his constituents will— food labelling regulations to mark halal and kosher products as such, so that those of us who object to Mr Speaker: Order. I call Bill Esterson. ritual slaughter do not inadvertently buy such products in shops and restaurants? Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): Does the Secretary of State accept the findings of the independent scientific Mr Paice: As my hon. Friend is aware and as the group on bovine TB, in particular when it says: House fully understands, this is a highly emotive issue, “Scientific findings indicate that the rising incidence of disease and I understand the demand for labelling. As he rightly can be reversed, and geographical spread contained, by the rigid says, the Government would like all animals to be application of cattle-based control measures alone”? properly stunned before they are bled to slaughter. There is a discussion at European level about food Mr Paice: The hon. Gentleman needs to recognise information regulations, but we do not believe that that that that study ended several years ago. We now have is the right vehicle. Next year, we will consult on more science, which has superseded those conclusions implementation of the European animal welfare regulations, reached by the independent study group. I have laid out 1043 Oral Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Oral Answers 1044 the new scientific evidence from ongoing studies in the a process of accession to the Europe Union, and it consultation document, and that is the reason for the seems a strange way to behave to tear up the rule book proposal that we have put forward. before joining the club. We are using a variety of mechanisms to try to put pressure on Iceland to operate T6. [21673] Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North in a sustainable way and protect a sustainable stock. Poole) (LD): The Prime Minister responded to a question from my hon. Friend the Member for Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): Does the Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) on 15 September Minister share the concerns of a number of farming about the Campaign to Protect Rural England’s report organisations—in particular smaller farming organisations, on a bottle deposit and return scheme, and gave an such as the Small Farms Association and the Family indication that the Government would be looking at it. Farmers Association—that plans to build a mega-dairy Given the potential to increase recycling and reduce in Nocton will fatally undermine the viability of a great litter, will the Minister give some views on the report number of small and family farms? and say what action might be taken? Mr Paice: Obviously I understand those concerns, Richard Benyon: We welcome the report, which we and as my hon. Friend knows, I have been in the think is a good addition to the review of waste being industry for most of my working life. Two points need carried out by my noble Friend Lord Henley, and we to be made. First, it is good news that somebody thinks will certainly consider it as part of that process. that the dairy industry is worth investing in, given that Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): so many dairy farmers have given up over the past few Investment in anaerobic digestion not only helps farmers years. Secondly, I genuinely believe that there is huge to become more competitive, but helps small rural scope for reclaiming much of our domestic market, communities such as those in North East Derbyshire which has been lost to imported dairy products. If both to process waste and to make energy. What is the through expansion and greater efficiencies we can do Department doing to ensure that farmers can diversify that, there will be room in the industry for both large in this way? and small producers. Mrs Spelman: Anaerobic digestion has great potential Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): Given in helping the farming industry reduce its overall carbon the reference made to the Environmental Audit Committee, emissions and will be an important part of the I hope we can return to the issue of resources in due Government’s aim, as part of being the greenest course. On a constituency matter, I met the Staffordshire Government ever, of achieving those reductions. Anaerobic wildlife trust last week and it is looking to make a digestion is something that we welcome, but the important submission to the EU LIFE+ programme to enhance thing is to have constant feedstocks. Anaerobic digestion biodiversity in Stoke-on-Trent. Will the Secretary of has a wider application in the communities that we all State commit DEFRA officers to give support to any live in, but for farming it is definitely an interesting proposal that comes out of that? option. Mrs Spelman: I am delighted to be able to offer that T7. [21674] Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): Can support. The wildlife trusts do an excellent job, which is my hon. Friend advise the House on whether he has why we see great scope in the concept of the big society had any discussions with independent animal welfare for more work of this kind. organisations about the prospects for intensive dairy I might have made an error, Mr Speaker, in not farming of the sort proposed by a planning application responding myself to the question put by the hon. in Lincolnshire? Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy). I apologise, Mr Paice: I have had no specific discussions or meetings as I should have taken it—but, of course, I agree with on the matter, nor have I received any specific everything that the Minister of State had to say. representations, but it has arisen in other discussions that I have had with animal welfare lobbies, which have Mr Speaker: The right hon. Lady, whom I have all put their views forward. I should point out that, as I known for 15 years, is unfailingly courteous, and I think understand it, a planning application has not even been that will be very much appreciated by the House. made yet. That will be a planning issue, and I cannot comment on the detail. Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): The heart of the new national forest lies in my beautiful Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ constituency of North West Leicestershire. Will the Co-op): I am sure that the Minister will share my Minister assure the House that any sale of Forestry disquiet at the reported comments by the Icelandic Commission assets will not reduce public access or negotiator last week. Will he do everything in his power enjoyment of our woods and forests? to ensure that next week’s meeting of the North East Atlantic Fisheries Commission is used as another vehicle Mr Paice: I am happy to give yet again the assurance to try to find a solution to the dispute about the that if any disposal of Forestry Commission land takes mackerel quota in the North sea, which is vital to many place—it is a matter for consultation—it will not be at communities in Scotland? the expense of any existing public benefit. I make the point that the National Forest Company, to which my Richard Benyon: I can assure the hon. Gentleman hon. Friend rightly refers, has done a superb job. The that we will use any means possible to resolve the issue, discussion does not include the national forest, much of which has wider implications. Iceland is going through which is, of course, already in private hands. 1045 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Business of the House 1046

Business of the House significant treaties affecting our nation’s security, whereas the House of Commons got to hear about them only as 11.31 am a reluctant afterthought. Does the Leader of the House think that this is a satisfactory way in which to treat Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): Will the Leader Members? Because I do not. of the House give us the forthcoming business? Turning now to broken pledges, will the Leader of The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George the House assure us that enough time will be provided Young): The business for the week commencing 8 November on the Floor of the House to debate the huge increase will be: in tuition fees now facing students and the huge cut in funding for university teaching—a cut described in The MONDAY 8NOVEMBER—Remaining stages of the Finance Guardian today as “insane”? The House will require a (No.2) Bill. lot of time. First, it will require time so that the Prime TUESDAY 9NOVEMBER—Opposition day [5th allotted Minister can come to the House and apologise for day]. There will be a full day’s debate on the impact of breaking his firm pledge to keep education maintenance proposed changes to housing benefits. This debate will allowances, which, as every Member knows, have played arise on an Opposition motion. a really important part in helping students from low-income WEDNESDAY 10 NOVEMBER—Consideration in Committee backgrounds to get to higher education. Secondly, it and remaining stages of the Equitable Life (Payments) will require time so that Ministers can be clear about Bill, followed by a motion to approve European documents what will actually happen to funding for undergraduate relating to economic policy co-ordination. teaching of non-STEM—science, technology, engineering and mathematics—subjects. THURSDAY 11 NOVEMBER—General debate on policy on growth. The subject for this debate was nominated The Minister for Universities and Science, the right by the Backbench Business Committee. hon. Member for Havant (Mr Willetts), told the Business, FRIDAY 12 NOVEMBER—Private Members’ Bills. Innovation and Skills Committee that band C and D institutions The provisional business for the week commencing 15 November will include: “would essentially lose their teaching grant support”. MONDAY 15 NOVEMBER—Second Reading of the Terrorist The House will wonder how places such as the School Asset-Freezing etc. Bill [Lords]. of Oriental and African Studies, Goldsmiths college, Leeds Trinity and All Saints college, the Royal Academy TUESDAY 16 NOVEMBER—Consideration in Committee of Music and Leeds College of Music will manage of the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill (Day 1). when every single pound of their public funding for WEDNESDAY 17 NOVEMBER—Opposition day [6th allotted undergraduate teaching disappears. Yesterday, the Minister day]. There will be a debate on an Opposition motion, for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning, subject to be announced, followed by a motion to the hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings approve the Draft Local Elections (Northern Ireland) (Mr Hayes), said in Westminster Hall that Order 2010 and the Draft Northern Ireland Assembly (Elections) (Amendment) Order 2010. “We will continue to support the arts through the subsidy for teaching in universities.″—[Official Report, 3 November 2010; THURSDAY 18 NOVEMBER—A debate on immigration. Vol. 517, c. 315WH.] The subject for this debate was nominated by the Backbench Business Committee. Which of those statements is actually correct? It looks to me like another shambles. FRIDAY 19 NOVEMBER—Private Members’ Bills. Colleagues will also wish to know that my right hon. Thirdly, we will need time so that Liberal Democrats— Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will open his whether they are currently Ministers or thinking about Budget statement on 23 March 2011. resigning as Ministers—can explain to thousands and thousands of angry and disillusioned students what I should also like to inform the House that the exactly they were thinking of when they made their business in Westminster Hall for 11 and 18 November solemn pledge to vote against any increase in tuition will be: fees. It could not have been clearer. Was it just a ploy to THURSDAY 11 NOVEMBER—Impact of the comprehensive win votes? Was it a mistake? Or was it that the Liberal spending review on the Department of Health. Democrats had no idea what they were doing? Whichever it was, I do not think that they will be getting those THURSDAY 18 NOVEMBER—Debate on the 2010 UN climate change conference, Cancun, for up to two hours, votes again. followed by a debate on houses in multiple occupation. Has the Leader of the House read the powerful speech made on Monday in the other place by Baroness Hilary Benn: I thank the Leader of the House for his Campbell of Surbiton about the proposal to take away statement. the mobility component of disability living allowance This week, Mr Speaker, you have granted two urgent from people who are in residential care? She cited the questions because the Government did not see fit to case of a couple, both disabled, who say that if that goes come and tell the House what they were doing. The first ahead they will no longer be able to visit the doctor, the concerned the fact that the Justice Secretary appears dentist, the bank, the church, the library or shops, let keener to put convicted prisoners on to the electoral alone their friends and relatives. Why is that the case? It register than he is the 3.5 million missing voters. The is because they will lose respectively 45% and 69% of second was because the Prime Minister thought that the their allowances. Lady Campbell said that the plan French President, the media, civil servants and just “makes neither moral nor financial sense.”—[Official Report, about everybody else should be told first about two very House of Lords, 1 November 2010; Vol. 721, c. 1468.] 1047 Business of the House4 NOVEMBER 2010 Business of the House 1048

[Hilary Benn] the same home who at the moment receive differential treatment, and of course there should be adequate I agree. May we have a debate on why the Government opportunity to debate it. seem so determined to take away those disabled people’s Finally, on the issue of photographs, it is important mobility, whether it is their use of taxis, electric scooters not to lose sight of the big picture. The right hon. or electric wheelchairs so that they can actually get Gentleman will have seen the statement by my noble about? May we also have a statement on whether that Friend the Minister without Portfolio. The previous harsh proposal was considered by the Government’s Prime Minister spent £40,000 a year on an image consultant own office for disability issues before it was announced and Labour spent over half a million pounds on in the comprehensive spending review? photographs and videos in its last three years in office Finally, can the Leader of the House confirm that alone, so I honestly do not think it is fitting for the right there will be a statement following the G20 summit next hon. Gentleman to criticise this Government for misuse week? Will photographs of the occasion by the Prime of the media. Minister’s personal photographer and newest civil servant be placed in the Library of the House ? Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): My right hon. Friend will know that Horn lane in Acton is one of the most polluted roads in London, largely, it Sir George Young: I am grateful to the right hon. seems, because a group of industrial units still operate Gentleman for his questions. there. Local residents have now set up a campaign to try On Tuesday, the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet to deal with the problem, but they have discovered that Office, the hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), it is virtually impossible to get anything done because made it quite clear that the Government had made no they must prove that an individual unit is responsible. decision on prisoner voting rights. I remind the right Does my right hon. Friend agree that a debate would hon. Gentleman that in its 16th report of the Session, help in identifying some new measures that might assist published in 2007, the Joint Committee on Human in tackling the problem? Rights criticised the then Government on the issue, stating that the time taken to produce the second Sir George Young: As my hon. Friend may know, I consultation paper was “disproportionate”, and that lived in Horn lane when I was the Member of Parliament the Government’s failure to enfranchise “at least part” for Ealing, Acton, and I apologise to her for not resolving of the prisoner community was “unlawful”. That was this problem during my 23 years representing that three years ago, and during those three years the constituency. She raises an important issue that might Government did absolutely nothing. The right hon. be an appropriate subject for an Adjournment debate, Gentleman will have heard what the Prime Minister at which one of my colleagues from the Department for said about that yesterday. It is another example of the Communities and Local Government would be able to coalition Government clearing up a mess that we inherited respond. from the outgoing Labour Government. Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): The Leader of The Prime Minister made an oral statement in the the House will have seen this week’s reports arguing House on Monday, during which he said that the treaty that alcohol is by far the most damaging drug in our to which the right hon. Gentleman referred would be society. Will he make time for a long and serious debate signed the following day and on alcohol in which we can look at the links between “laid before Parliament in the usual way.”—[Official Report, alcohol and high levels of teenage pregnancy and domestic 1 November 2010; Vol. 517, c. 615.] violence, the incidence of foetal alcohol syndrome, levels There is no secrecy about that. The Prime Minister’s of addiction, the impact on the economy and every statement was followed by a written ministerial statement other aspect of the alcohol problem, and in which we on Tuesday morning. The Command Papers and can also examine the possibility of unit pricing for explanatory memorandums will accompany each treaty alcohol across the whole country and of raising the when it is presented to Parliament for scrutiny in the legal age for alcohol consumption and purchase? usual manner in the next few days. Sir George Young: The hon. Gentleman raises a series On tuition fees, the right hon. Gentleman—and his of serious subjects which of course the House should colleague, the hon. Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas), debate. We will be bringing forward tough action to yesterday—gave no indication at all of the Labour deal with problem drinking, such as stopping supermarkets party’s reaction to Lord Browne’s report, which Labour selling alcohol below cost price. We are going to introduce itself commissioned. We are determined to have a fair a much tougher licensing regime. We are also going to system: a system that is free at the point of access, that review alcohol taxation and pricing. Related to that, we enables more students from low-income backgrounds will publish a drugs strategy in the coming months, and to participate, that offers generous student support and we will set out a radical new approach to public health that is progressive by expecting only those who have in a White Paper, which will also focus on drinking completed their learning and are earning more to pay issues. more. On disability living allowance, the right hon. Gentleman Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): I wonder whether the raised the serious issue of whether one should align Leader of the House can find time for a debate on local those in residential care funded by the NHS who lose enterprise partnerships. Quangos are being culled and the mobility component with those who are funded by that is resulting in Essex being twinned with Kent and social services who do not. There is an issue of equity East Sussex, which are not local. In fact, Holland is between two people in identical circumstances living in almost as close to Colchester as Brighton. Does the 1049 Business of the House4 NOVEMBER 2010 Business of the House 1050 right hon. Gentleman agree that it makes sense for Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): I appreciate the Colchester and north Essex to be allied with Suffolk comments that the Leader of the House made a few and Norfolk, rather than Brighton? minutes ago about prisoners’voting rights. Notwithstanding that, may I tell him that my constituents have been Sir George Young: Decisions about who is to be part quick off the mark in letting me know their total of a local enterprise partnership should, essentially, be opposition to any prospect of prisoners voting? It may taken at the local level, not by Whitehall. The thrust of be helpful to the Government to have an early debate, our policy in abolishing regional development agencies so that all Members are given an opportunity to express is to let local people, local businesses and local authorities their views before the Government produce details. decide on the best formula for taking forward LEPs. Could we please have such an early debate? The hon. Gentleman should therefore contact his local authorities and pursue the case with them, because it Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend is they who will be deciding the framework for the for that. Any change of the law would, of course, future LEP. require a debate in the House of Commons. Ministers are considering how to implement the judgment—which Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Despite the previous Government failed to do. When the what the Leader of the House said, would it not be Government have made a decision, the House will be useful to have a statement next week on the fact that the the first to know. Government now have not only an official photographer Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): Is but a film maker? Is it true that Mr Parsons, the the Leader of the House aware that Members who are photographer, intends to display photographs of the Prime unsuccessful in securing Adjournment debates can make Minister all around Portcullis House so that the younger representations to the Backbench Business Committee generation, particularly school parties, can pay tribute for debates in Westminster Hall of anything up to three to the dear leader, North Korean-style? hours? Will he therefore join me in encouraging Back Sir George Young: What this Government are seeking Benchers to make representations to the Committee on to do on the publicity front will, I believe, cost the Monday at 4 pm—and every following Monday at taxpayer far less than the previous Government spent in 4 pm? We have put in a regular slot, so that Members achieving similar objectives and will do it far more can make representations and bids for time, both in the effectively. Chamber and in Westminster Hall. Sir George Young: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con): Will my right that, and I would encourage hon. Members who have hon. Friend consider the difficulties that many of us an issue that they think ought to be ventilated, either find with the process of consultation? Will he review here or in Westminster Hall, to attend her salon on a this with his colleagues and see whether it might not be Monday at 4 pm. May I also remind the House that the possible to have a debate in order to find a better way Backbench Business Committee has assumed responsibility for consultations to take place, in which people really for what were the set-piece debates in the previous feel that they have had their day in court and that their Parliament? Debates such as the day on Welsh affairs views have been listened to? and the one for international women’s day will take Sir George Young: I welcome what my hon. Friend place under the new regime only if Members go to her has said. We will be producing a localism Bill, the thrust Committee and effectively make the case for their repetition. of which will be to push decision making down to the Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): local level and to engage people more effectively in May I visit the Leader of the House’s salon to request, decisions that affect their own community. He will on behalf of all colleagues who have been affected by know that a code of practice on consultation has been recent ward closures, an early debate on the approach of put out by the Cabinet Office and, in the light of his primary care trusts and hospital trusts across the country question, I will raise with my right hon. Friend the to closing wards by stealth? That is causing great concern Minister for the Cabinet Office the issue of whether this and would justify an early debate. consultation paper might be revisited. Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab): Will for her question. There will be a debate in Westminster the Leader of the House grant a debate on the accuracy Hall next Thursday on the impact of the comprehensive of Government statements, particularly the use of the spending review on the Department of Health. That phrase, “We are all in this together”? On 14 May, might be a good opportunity for her to raise her concerns. Downing street proclaimed that ministerial pay would be cut by 5%, but I have been told by the Treasury that Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): May we that has not happened. Were a civil servant to be have an early debate ahead of the Prime Minister’s visit overpaid by £3,500 his boss would make him pay it to China on the case of Liu Xiaobo, the Nobel peace back. Will the Leader of the House tell the Prime prize winner? In a shameful conspiracy of silence, there Minister that he has to pay it back? is no reference to him on either the No. 10 or the Foreign and Commonwealth Office website. When Andrei Sir George Young: Speaking from experience, I am Sakharov won the same prize there was no greater pretty certain that my own pay is 5% less than my champion of him than Mrs Thatcher. I am all for good predecessor received for performing exactly the same trade with China, but it is shameful that neither of our duties. I will, of course, make some inquiries and confirm two top spokespersons on foreign affairs has mentioned that the Government’s policy to reduce ministerial pay that great and noble man’s name. Will the Prime Minister by 5% has indeed been effected. do it next week in China? 1051 Business of the House4 NOVEMBER 2010 Business of the House 1052

Sir George Young: Let me reassure the right hon. Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): The Government’s Gentleman that when the Prime Minister is in China he policy to introduce a supermarket adjudicator enjoys will raise the serious issue of China’s human rights wide support in the country and has all-party support record. That issue will not go by default. in the House. However, those who are enthusiastic about it cannot believe that the Government have no Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Will my right hon. plans to introduce legislation to enforce the code of Friend encourage the Foreign Secretary to make a practice before the end of this very extended Session. statement on his visit to Israel and the occupied What can the Leader of the House do to ensure that territories when he returns next week? Many of us are this matter is brought forward as quickly as possible? beginning to doubt whether we will live to see a two-state solution and it would be good to hear the Foreign Sir George Young: The hon. Gentleman raises a Secretary’s assessment of what is happening in Israel serious issue. The coalition Government intend to introduce, and Palestine. during this Session, a draft Bill to address that matter. Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising this serious issue. If my right hon. Friend the Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): The Leader of the House Foreign Secretary is not able to make a statement, there is held in high regard on both sides of the House and by are Foreign and Commonwealth Office questions next all parties. As someone who holds the rights of the Tuesday, which would be an appropriate time for my House in high esteem does he share my eagerness to see hon. Friend to press him on that matter. information that has been given to the House corrected by the Secretary of State for Health? In Tuesday’s Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): Many of my Health questions, the Secretary of State stated that constituents have relatives in Pakistan who suffered in spending on the national health service will increase in the floods and now feel largely forgotten. May we have real terms even if the social care budget given to local an urgent debate on the current level of aid and support authorities is removed, but the Library and the Nuffield for those beleaguered people? Trust have both stated that that is incorrect. Can the Leader of the House arrange for the Secretary of State Sir George Young: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for to return to the House to correct that misinformation? raising this important issue. Again, there will be Foreign and Commonwealth Office questions next Tuesday, when Sir George Young: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman there might be an opportunity for her to raise these for the kind words that prefaced his question. I shall issues with the Foreign Secretary. raise with the Secretary of State for Health the point that the hon. Gentleman has made, implying that Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): Many of information was incorrectly given to the House, and I my constituents are deeply concerned about the lack of am sure that my right hon. Friend will take appropriate transparency and accountability of the Yorkshire action when he has read this morning’s Hansard. Dales national park authority. Will my right hon. Friend grant a debate on the future of Britain’s national Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): My 14-year-old constituent, parks? Bethanie Thorn from Silver End, was a healthy teenager until last month when she was left bedridden by an Sir George Young: We have just had questions to the illness. Despite her constant agony and blood tests that relevant Department and I understand that the Under- reveal cancer markers, the Mid-Essex Hospital Services Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural trust is denying her the MRI scan that her doctor has Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard urgently requested. Will the Leader of the House use Benyon), will launch a public consultation next week on his good offices to investigate the reason for the appalling the governance arrangements of the nine English national delays at the trust and may we have a debate on why the park authorities and the Broads authority, thereby delivering trust has been able to spend £10 million employing one of the commitments in the coalition agreement and 109 managers but cannot arrange this urgent scan for in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural my constituent? Affairs draft structural reform plan. Sir George Young: I am sorry to hear of Bethanie’s Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): May we have an illness and I understand how important it is for her to early debate on Public Bill Committee evidence sessions? have the MRI scan. As my hon. Friend will know, we This is an issue about which I also intend to write to are increasing in real terms the budget available to the you, Mr Speaker. I am a member of a Public Bill NHS and we are introducing reforms so that more Committee that has had three evidence sessions, none resources go to the front line. I shall raise this specific of which the Minister has attended to hear the evidence, issue with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to contribute to the debate or to listen to Members’ for Health to see whether there is any action he might contributions. Whatever has happened in the past on take. this matter, is it not important that Ministers attend evidence sessions in Bill Committees? Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): Yesterday, the tug boat Anglian Prince was Sir George Young: I shall make inquiries about that. I again involved in serious work as it towed a ship with assume that the Minister in question is a member of the engine trouble into Stornoway. Luckily, this time the Committee and that there will therefore be adequate ship was not full of oil and was not a nuclear submarine. opportunities to press him in person on his performance May we have a debate on the possible environmental during the Committee. I suggest that that is the appropriate damage of the cuts and the removal of the maritime forum in which to raise this matter. insurance policy in north-west Scotland, thereby 1053 Business of the House4 NOVEMBER 2010 Business of the House 1054 highlighting the fact that the UK cannot or is unwilling Yet in a Westminster Hall debate that I took part in to afford it, whereas an independent Scotland would yesterday, the Minister for Further Education, Skills and could? and Lifelong Learning said: “We will continue to support the arts through the subsidy for Sir George Young: If the independent Scotland had teaching in universities.” —[Official Report, 3 November 2010; the resources that it currently gets from elsewhere in the Vol. 517, c. 315WH.] United Kingdom. The hon. Gentleman raises an important Please may we have an urgent statement on when universities issue which I suggest is an appropriate subject for an will learn of their funding settlements in order to alleviate Adjournment debate. the uncertainty that so many universities, teaching staff, students and prospective students are suffering? David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): Prior to the spending review, it was accepted that Scotland receives Sir George Young: Of course I understand the concern approximately 20% more per head than a needs-based that the hon. Lady expresses. She will have heard my analysis would result in, particularly when compared right hon. Friend the Minister for Universities and with the English regions. That is due to an anomaly in Science say yesterday in his statement that there would the Barnett formula, but I understand that the Government be a debate quite soon, after which there would be a do not intend to review the formula. The spending vote on the order to raise the caps. That would be an review cuts deeper in England than in Scotland; is it not appropriate point for the hon. Lady to raise her concerns time for a debate on this subject? again. Sir George Young: As my hon. Friend has said, the Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con): My right hon. Friend Government do not intend to revisit the Barnett formula, and every MP will be aware of the burdens and, more but we have no objection to a debate on the issue if he importantly, the excessive costs of the systems that the applies for one in the usual way. Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority has introduced. Do the Government have the confidence to Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): More than allow the House the time to bring forward and to six months ago, candidates in all political parties signed debate measures that would deal with those excessive a series of pledges, including the sanctuary pledge, in costs? which candidates who are now Members of Parliament pledged to remove children from immigration detention. Sir George Young: My hon. Friend has a private Why then, six months after the general election, has the Member’s Bill on that subject. The Government have coalition not yet carried out that pledge, which also no plans to have an earlier debate on IPSA, but he will appears in the coalition agreement? know that IPSA is about to announce a review, and I hope that that will provide an opportunity for all hon. Sir George Young: This is another issue that we Members to submit their views. My view is absolutely inherited from the outgoing Labour Government, as clear: IPSA is there to sustain Members and to enable they failed to address it. It is addressed in the coalition them to discharge their duties, and any barriers that get agreement, as the hon. Gentleman will see, and the in the way should be removed. coalition Government will take action to deliver that commitment. Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Speaking of salons, is it true that No. 10 has also employed a hair stylist? Perhaps that is what the Government mean by Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Talking of cuts. But seriously, may we have a debate on civil service issues that were inherited from the previous Government, recruitment? It is not just the Prime Minister’s vanity we found out this week—six months after the general snapper and film-maker that is at issue; I have had a election—that as a result of the European Court of letter outstanding to the Cabinet Secretary since September Human Rights ruling about prisoners having the right on the issue of the Culture Secretary bringing in people to vote, the UK faces a bill in excess of £100 million. from outside the civil service at a time when civil servants May we have a statement on what other hidden and are being sacked. We need a serious debate on the contingent liabilities were left behind by the Labour matter, and I need an answer to my letter. Government for us to deal with? Sir George Young: I have no knowledge of any hair Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. He stylist being employed at No. 10, and as the hon. will know, having listened to statements by Treasury Gentleman can see I would have no need of such a Ministers, that we have had to deal with a large number service. On the specific issue, he is entitled to a response of commitments by the outgoing Government for which to his letter. So far as recruitment is concerned, any the resources were not made available. On the specific recruitment to No. 10 or, indeed, elsewhere in the public issue, as he knows, Ministers are considering how to sector has to follow the due procedures. implement the judgment and, indeed, how to avoid the fines to which he refers. When the Government have Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): made a decision, the House will be the first to know. When can we expect the much awaited localism Bill to begin its passage through Parliament? I am particularly Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): keen to see our planning system reforms introduced May I press the Leader of the House? My right hon. quickly. In my constituency and, I believe, those of Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) many other hon. Members, developers are quite keen to mentioned that the Minister for Universities and Science exploit what they perceive as the grey area of planning has said that non-STEM—science, technology, engineering before the Bill is introduced. When will we have settlement and mathematics—subjects will lose their teaching grant. on the matter? 1055 Business of the House4 NOVEMBER 2010 Business of the House 1056

Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s three months to July 2010, total employment rose by concern. The localism Bill was announced in the Queen’s 286,000, and while public sector employment, to which Speech on 25 May, and it contains a wide range of he refers, fell by 22,000 in the second quarter, private measures to devolve more powers to councils. In answer sector employment rose by 308,000. That puts the issue to his specific question, the Bill will be introduced to in perspective. Parliament shortly. Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con) rose— Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): Two weeks ago, the Leader of the House announced a Mr Speaker: Order. I assume that the hon. Lady was review of House sitting hours. Can he confirm that it here at the start of the business statement? will include a review of September sittings? Once it has taken place, will all matters, including September sittings, Laura Sandys indicated dissent. return to the House for a decision on a free vote? If so, will he provide to Members full information about the Mr Speaker: No. Okay, we move on. financial and other consequences for the long-term maintenance of the House of a shorter recess and less Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): I wish to return to the time to carry out maintenance during the summer? education maintenance allowance, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) Sir George Young: The Procedure Committee is indeed mentioned. As recently as June, the Minister with carrying out a review of the sitting hours of the House. responsibility for schools reiterated the coalition It will include whether we should sit in September, as Government’s commitment to the EMA, but we now well as the actual hours that we sit during the day. That see that that commitment was as hollow as a Liberal has always been a House of Commons matter on which Democrat pledge. Will the Leader of the House arrange Members have had a free vote. There will also be an for a statement on the equalities impact assessment of opportunity for the House authorities to raise the issue the withdrawal of the EMA? of the cost to the House if they do not have a long run during the summer recess to carry out certain capital Sir George Young: The hon. Gentleman will know work—although whether that should be decisive in that in the comprehensive spending review announcement, determining whether the House sits in September is there was a clear statement on the future of the EMA, something on which I should like to reflect. which will be transferred to a more targeted, local and discretionary system. We had a debate on the CSR last Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): The Leader of Thursday, when there was an opportunity to raise the the House will be aware of the huge consequences of EMA and other issues, so I am not sure that I can find trebling fees to £9,000 for students, and of the decision time for another debate in the very near future. to withdraw funding from arts and humanities teaching throughout our universities. He will forgive me, because Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): When we have I have an arts degree, but surely it is right that we debate the debate that my right hon. Friend the Member for not just the fee levels, but the implications for widening Tottenham (Mr Lammy) has requested, may we also participation and the decision to withdraw from the arts have a debate on Lib-Dem manifesto commitments, so and humanities. The debate must be about the entire that Ministers can hear the comments of students in my matter, not solely the fee level. constituency, who have told me that they have decided either to change courses, based on which careers pay Sir George Young: Yesterday we had an extensive most, or not to go to university at all? debate on the issue when my right hon. Friend the Minister for Universities and Science made a statement Sir George Young: As I have said, there will be an to the House. There will be another full day’s debate on opportunity to debate the statement that we heard the whole issue, as I said in response to an earlier yesterday. It would be helpful if, during that debate, we question. On the specific issue of arts and humanities, just had some idea of where the Labour party stands on which a number of colleagues have raised, I will of the matter. course pass on to the Secretary of State their deep concerns about the funding of those faculties. Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab): The Leader of the House will know that we are five months on from the Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): Given that shootings in my constituency, so there is no notion the Government’s economic policy seems to be based whatever of a knee-jerk response to those events. The on sacking up to 1 million public sector workers and Association of Chief Police Officers has recommended replacing them with private sector employees, and that changes to the gun laws, and Home Office Ministers nobody bar the Government believes that that is workable, have promised Members a debate on such changes. may we have a debate in which the Government have an When may we have that debate, and may we have it opportunity to spell out how they will achieve that sooner rather than later please? miracle? Sir George Young: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. Sir George Young: I remind the hon. Gentleman of He will know that the Home Affairs Committee is what the Office for Budget Responsibility has said on undertaking an inquiry into firearms legislation, and we the matter. It expects whole economy employment to await the outcome of the inquiry into the tragic incidents rise during every year of its forecast, from 28.89 million in Cumbria earlier this year. Once we have had that, we people in 2010-11 to 30.23 million in 2015-16. Employment will honour our commitment to a debate on our gun has also risen very sharply in recent months. In the laws, which are already among the toughest in the world. 1057 Business of the House 4 NOVEMBER 2010 1058

Mr Speaker, may I make it clear that the Budget Points of Order statement is expected on Wednesday 23 March, and that private Members’ Bills will be before the House on 12.9 pm Friday 19 November? Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con): On a point of order, Several hon. Members rose— Mr Speaker. I hope that this is a very important matter on which you can offer some guidance. It seems to me Mr Speaker: Order. I was expecting to move on to the that in this Parliament over the last 100 years, Governments main business. [Interruption.] I emphasise that I had and Prime Ministers have often dictated the terms and been expecting to move on to the main business. Suddenly, conditions for Members of Parliament, when in fact there are points of order. We will observe just how Parliament should be dictating the—[Interruption.] The genuine they are. I feel sure that they will be. point of order is this: is it right that the Government should be able to block Private Members’ Bills that relate to the terms and conditions for Members? [Interruption.] Mr Speaker: Order. It is absolutely legitimate for Members of the House, including members of the Government, to take a view about a particular Bill. That is the short answer to the attempted point of order from the hon. Gentleman. Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would like to bring to your attention the huge difference in the time that it takes to get letters from various Ministers. Should we introduce a maximum time for responses to legitimate questions from Back-Bench MPs? Mr Speaker: A number of Departments have target response times. The hon. Gentleman says that he is raising a point of order with me, but it is not a matter specifically and directly for the Chair. He has, however, raised his concerns in front of the Leader of the House, who will have heard them. I feel sure that the right hon. Gentleman will attach importance to ensuring that those concerns are heeded. Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. It seems to me that, certainly for new Members, there is uncertainty about when it is appropriate for points of order to be made—and, indeed, about what actually constitutes a point of order. Mr Speaker: There is no uncertainty in my mind. [Interruption.] Order. I am genuinely sorry for the hon. Gentleman if he is suffering from uncertainty. I am not suffering from any uncertainty on this matter, although I pay tribute to him for his efforts. Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You will know that I have raised with the House authorities the delays there have been as I have tried to secure certain school tours. This week, I had a group cancellation— Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady was actively discouraged from pursuing that matter as a point of order. I fully understand her sense of grievance about it, but it is not, I am afraid, a matter of order. For her, it is a matter of real and understandable frustration, which is not quite the same thing.

Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I seek your guidance. Earlier this week, there was a meeting, for the first time in 15 years, of the Welsh parliamentary party. I am not sure what the status of the Welsh parliamentary party is, but my question— 1059 Points of Order 4 NOVEMBER 2010 1060

Mr Speaker: Order. That is not a point of order; the Strategic Defence and Security Review hon. Gentleman will resume his seat. 12.13 pm Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con) rose— The Secretary of State for Defence (Dr Liam Fox): I Mr Speaker: Last go. I call Mr Stewart Jackson. beg to move, That this House has considered the matter of the Strategic Mr Jackson: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Do Defence and Security Review. you, like me, deprecate the practice, too common among Last month, the Government published the strategic— Departments under the previous Government, of referring, in written answers to parliamentary questions, to website Mr Speaker: Order. The Secretary of State should addresses rather than giving substantive answers? Will resume his seat. Given that he was manifestly late for you intercede? the debate, I thought that, as a matter of straightforward courtesy, he would begin his remarks with a fulsome Mr Speaker: I am happy to comment on that point of apology to the House. That is what he will now do. order. The hon. Gentleman draws the attention of the House to what is becoming a common practice. Responses Dr Fox: Mr Speaker, I completely apologise for any from Ministers to questions should be as helpful and inconvenience to you or the House as a result of my late clear as possible. Simply referring an hon. Member to a attendance. website is, frankly, not good enough. [Interruption.] Last month, the Government published the strategic We come now to the main business. To move the defence and security review. This was a thorough, cross- motion, I call the Secretary of State, Dr Liam Fox. Government strategic effort, overseen by the National Security Council, looking at all aspects of security and defence. It describes the adaptable posture that we have chosen to meet the threats and exploit the opportunities that we identified in the national security strategy.

Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): I intervene to assist the Secretary of State. He should pour a cup of water and catch his breath, so that he can be fully refreshed as he makes his statement. I hope that my intervention has been helpful.

Dr Fox: There always had to be very good reasons for the coalition; my hon. Friend shows how collegiate we have become in the past few months. I pay tribute, after a long and complex process, to Lord Stirrup and Sir Bill Jeffrey, the outgoing Chief of the Defence Staff and the permanent secretary at the MOD. I would like to thank them for all their hard work on behalf of the Department and the armed forces over many years. The fiscal environment that we inherited from the previous Government has required us to make some very difficult and complex decisions in the SDSR. That should not come as a surprise to the Labour party. In his Green Paper, my predecessor, the right hon. Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth), who is in his place today, wrote with characteristic understatement that defence faced “challenging financial pressures…which will constrain Government resources.” His Green Paper, a cross-party effort, said: “We cannot proceed with all the activities and programmes we currently aspire to, while simultaneously supporting our current operations and investing in the new capabilities we need. We will need to make tough decisions”. We have had 12 years without a fundamental rethink and we are in the midst of the biggest financial crisis in a generation, with an inherited defence budget that is in overdraft to the tune of some £38 billion and is tied up by a byzantine system of contractual obligations. There was a record in-year increase of £3.3 billion in the equipment programme during Labour’s last year in government alone. All that has come at a time when our armed forces are fighting at a high tempo in Afghanistan. 1061 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1062 Review Review It has fallen to this Government to take the tough and policy to commitments and resources. A strategy decisions required without undermining serious capabilities, that does not take account of fiscal or budgetary measures the military covenant or the UK industrial capacity. is no strategy at all; it is simply wishful thinking. If we had a clean sheet of paper without the financial As Lord Ashdown recently put it, we cannot defend a pressures that face all Government Departments as a country on flights of fancy. Furthermore, history has result of the inherited fiscal deficit, and if we were clearly shown how fundamental a strong economy is for unencumbered by existing contractual obligations and effective national security and defence over the long in different operational circumstances, the results would term. We were left an economically toxic legacy by the undoubtedly have been different. Nevertheless, although previous Government. They doubled the national debt difficult, the decisions that we have made are coherent and left us with the biggest budget deficit in the G20. and consistent, and will provide us with the capabilities We are spending £120 million every single day just to that we require for the future. pay off the interest on Labour’s debt. The interest we We now know that, as the former Chief of the will pay next year on the debt is some £46 billion, Defence Staff has said, Labour Ministers were offered significantly more than the entire annual defence budget, advice on which cuts to make to get the defence budget and we will get nothing for that money. Without regaining back into balance, but that advice was rejected owing to economic strength, we will be unable to sustain in the the lack of political will in the run-up to the general long term the capabilities required, including military election. Only the coalition Government have had the capabilities, to keep our citizens safe and maintain our political courage to do what was financially and militarily influence on the world stage. right with defence. We have had to implement the cuts If we learned anything from the cold war, it is that a that Labour Ministers lacked the courage to make. strong economy equals strong defence. The economic legacy of the previous Government is a national security Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): The Secretary liability. We were left with a situation in which the of State said that if he had had a clean sheet of paper, country’s finances were wrecked while the world is a he would have made different decisions. Does that mean more dangerous place than at any time in recent memory. that the agreement with the French that was signed this Every Department must make its own contribution week would not have happened? to deficit reduction and the MOD is no exception, but because of the priority we place on security the defence Dr Fox: Quite the reverse. In opposition, we spent budget is making a more modest contribution to deficit considerable time discussing with the French what we reduction relative to almost all other Government would want to do in terms of greater co-operation were Departments. we to win the general election. What we saw this week were the fruits of considerable labour on both sides for The SDSR meets twin priorities of protecting front-line a considerable time. capability for Afghanistan and beginning the process of transforming our armed forces to meet the challenges It is rational and reasonable simply to want greater of the future, setting the path to a coherent and affordable co-operation with our biggest military ally in continental defence capability in 2020 and beyond. Europe. What has been amazing in the last few days is the level of agreement, which seems to have occurred across the political spectrum, that this is not a drastic Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): As the right hon. threat to UK sovereignty, but a common-sense use of Gentleman knows, decisions still have to be made on both our nations’ resources. the future of the joint combat aircraft and RAF Lossiemouth, which the MOD recently concluded to be Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): As the ideal JCA base because it provides excellent access the Defence Secretary for the last year of the Labour to training areas and modern facilities and is the most Government, I remind the right hon. Gentleman that in cost-effective. The Secretary of State is in Oslo next that year we took £900 million out of the defence week meeting Nordic partners. Will he discuss the budget, rather than increase the deficit by £3 billion, opportunities for air defence co-operation with the and that that was met with howls from the then Opposition. Norwegians, who will have the same aircraft and will Without wanting to fall out with the then Chief of the station them closest to RAF Lossiemouth? Defence Staff, I have to say that I cannot remember his ever having said anything to me about defence cuts that Dr Fox: The hon. Gentleman makes a useful point. I was not prepared to make. I say that on the record. We will be discussing a wide range of future issues, including air defences and the common threats that we Dr Fox: The right hon. Gentleman has made his face. The hon. Gentleman’s point is important but, as point very clearly. Obviously, I am unable to say what he recognises, it will have to be balanced against a discussions might have taken place. However, the point number of other interests. We fully recognise the problems is that, as the National Audit Office said, there was an and anxieties that the uncertainties will create until the added overspend of £3.3 billion in the final year alone decisions are taken, but we will try to expedite them as in the projects budgets. That is very clear. best we can while fully understanding the issues involved. As the Prime Minister has said, the SDSR was about As I said, the SDSR dealt with Afghanistan and the taking the right decisions to protect national security in future 2020 force so, if I may, I shall take them in turn. the years ahead, not simply a cost-saving exercise to get Our armed forces are in Afghanistan first and foremost to grips with the biggest budget deficit in post-war to protect our national security by ensuring that history. However, let us be absolutely clear that those transnational terrorists cannot find safe and unhindered are not two separate things. Proper strategic thought sanctuary there, as they did before 9/11. There is no encompasses ends, ways and means, matching ambition difference across this House and those who seek to do 1063 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1064 Review Review [Dr Fox] It is essential that when we set these dates we are also cognisant of what the Afghan Government want. The ill to British forces or British interests should understand Afghan Government have for some time—as the previous that there is a united House of Commons behind our Government fully understood—had the ambition to armed forces. manage entirely their own security apparatus by the end Under the leadership of, first, General McChrystal of 2014. The approach that has been taken by this and now General Petraeus, we have the right strategy in Government and more widely in NATO has been to ask place to succeed. We now have the right number of how we tie our timetables in with the ambitions of the troops in theatre with the right equipment and we will Afghans. It is perfectly reasonable. As the NATO summit soon agree a plan for the transition of key responsibilities in a couple of weeks’ time will show, it is increasingly to the Afghan Government at the NATO summit in the view of NATO that we should transition out of a Lisbon in a couple of weeks’ time. We now have to be combat role and allow the Afghan Government to have patient and let the strategy run its course. control by the end of 2014, but that we should maintain the resources required to give them support. For example, The Foreign Secretary set out to Parliament last week whether the Afghans will be able to develop any sort of the steady progress that is being made in the security meaningful air wing according to their timetable of mission. Afghanistan is the top foreign policy priority 2014 is something that we must consider. for the Government and the main effort for defence and we will do all that is necessary to achieve operational Bob Russell: May I take the Secretary of State back success and ensure that our forces have the tools they to his comments on last week’s statement by the Foreign require to do the job. I am grateful to the shadow Secretary? So far, his speech has concentrated, quite Defence Secretary and the shadow Foreign Secretary rightly, on the military, but may I press him on the for showing such an interest in detailed briefing on the importance of joined-up government across Departments subject so early in their time in office. here so that in Afghanistan the political and economic sides—the other two sides of the triangle—get equal Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): Of course the weight? Does joined-up thinking happen in Government Opposition support what the Government are doing in here? Afghanistan but, as we saw from the events of this week, as al-Qaeda is displaced from Afghanistan, it Dr Fox: It is increasingly happening, not only here ends up in places such as Yemen. May I urge the but on the ground. To be fair, I must say that it is Secretary of State to recognise that when we take action increasingly happening within NATO. The planning to in one country it affects another, and can we please also co-ordinate military activity with the civilian reconstruction pursue a strategy to ensure that Yemen is as stable as element is increasingly successful. There remains a gap possible? which is what people talk about as “hot” construction, “hot” intervention or “hot” reconstruction, however we Dr Fox: I am not sure that I accept the basic premise want to define it, which is at the initial period when we that it is an either/or situation. We have to deal with have military success, how do we begin the reconstruction al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Even if we deal process early enough and maximise the benefits from with them effectively, that does not mean that there will our own actions there? There are many people who not be a terrorist threat from elsewhere. We need to be would look at the example of Afghanistan in recent ever vigilant and to recognise that the problem of dealing years and say that between 2003 and 2006 we perhaps with an ideology is that it can occur in any part of the did not ensure that we had in the optimal way joined the globe. We also need to be aware that it is most likely to different elements that my hon. Friend mentions. However, be present and to have effect where there are failed we are seeing regular improvements in that regard, both states. nationally and internationally. I believe that proper joined-up government that is willing to consider how we support failing states and Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): As the how we get improved governance, resources and Secretary of State is probably aware, the Foreign Affairs development into those countries is one of the best Committee visited Afghanistan last week, when we had ways of ensuring that the ideology never takes route. It an opportunity to see the components of the settlement is true in whatever dispute we are talking about that that he has described put in place. We welcome the people who have nothing to lose may gamble with it, indications of cautious optimism that are coming out of whereas people who have a stake are far more likely to that country. As for 2015, does he accept that when that be circumspect about what happens. That is one of the pledge was made, it related to a period that was almost best ways to deny territory to those with that sort of the length of the second world war? Does he agree that fanatical ideology. that provides an ample opportunity for a solution and a settlement to be realised? Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): I agree with the Secretary of State’s assessment of Dr Fox: My hon. Friend makes a very constructive Afghanistan and that there is a united House. However, point. I think that the time scales are realistic. could he enlighten the House by telling us at what stage Where proposed changes in the SDSR had implications the Prime Minister consulted him on the withdrawal for operations in Afghanistan, we have ensured that the date of 2015? success of the mission was given priority. Consequently we have made no changes to combat units involved in Dr Fox: We have so many ongoing discussions, not Afghan operations and have postponed changes in other just inside the Government but, as the hon. Lady knows, key capabilities such as the RAF’s Sentinel ground with our NATO partners and with our American partners. surveillance aircraft for as long as they are required 1065 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1066 Review Review there. This is in addition to the enhancements planned why we want to have a five-yearly defence review that is in capabilities such as counter-IED, protected vehicle able to do that, so that we are not having to wait for surveillance and remotely piloted aircraft. And of course disproportionately long periods before making any we have doubled the operational allowance, as we promised. adjustments that we might need. The 2015 review will The men and women of our armed forces risk an be a very useful point at which to try to assess what the awful lot to keep us safe. In Afghanistan, their sacrifice legacy of Afghanistan may be on our armed forces and has been significant, and it will continue to be a dangerous what adjustments are required in the light of that. place in which to operate. All of us in this House owe Let me now turn to the detail of the SDSR in relation them our respect and gratitude, but most of all we owe to defence. The new national security strategy set out them our support. This Government will not let them the policy framework that was the force driver of the down. SDSR. The adaptive posture demands that our armed forces become a more flexible and agile force with Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): I appreciate global reach, capable of providing nuclear and conventional what the right hon. Gentleman says about the debt of deterrence, containment, coercion and intervention. gratitude that we owe to our armed forces; that will be The Government are committed to the maintenance endorsed on both sides of this House. We also owe a of the UK’s minimum effective nuclear deterrent. We huge debt of gratitude to their families. When the Prime will proceed with the renewal of Trident and the submarine Minister brought the defence and security decisions replacement programme, incorporating the changes set before this House, he said that there were decisions to out in the value-for-money study published in the SDSR. be made about the allowances made to the armed forces The decision to extend the life of the current Vanguard and their families. When will we have that information? class submarines and changes in the profile of the Can we have an assurance that those families will not be replacement programme mean that initial gate will be worse off as a result of the ongoing sacrifice of their approved in the next few weeks. The next phase of the family members on the front line? project will commence, and the main gate decision will Dr Fox: The hon. Lady makes a very important take place in 2016. This programme does not in any way point. Indeed, when we recently met a number of our alter the continuous nature and credibility of the nuclear armed forces coming home from Afghanistan, we both deterrent. pointed out that without the support of families it James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): would be infinitely more difficult for our service personnel There has been a lot of discussion about the renewal of to be engaged in Afghanistan. It is important that when Trident. Irrespective of the decisions about gates, can we look at allowances we strike a balance between what my right hon. Friend confirm the absolute centrality in will enable our personnel and their families to get an his thinking of the fact that we need to maintain a adequate standard of living, particularly when they face continuous at-sea deterrent? the unique difficulties of postings abroad or extended periods away from family. However, we must also ensure, Dr Fox: I have absolutely no problem in agreeing with in the very difficult financial climate we inherited, that my hon. Friend about the importance of continuous we get value for money. We will carry out the review as at-sea deterrence. Let me make two simple points about quickly as we can, but I have to say to the hon. Lady that. First, having a continuous at-sea deterrent has a that I would much rather get it right than get it quickly. diplomatic utility. It means that because it is a background We need properly to understand the implications for and consistent deterrent, we do not have the problem of changes to the allowance, and any changes that are choosing when to deploy it at a time of rising tension, made must be phased in in a way that makes it possible which could exacerbate a difficult situation. Secondly, if for families to adjust to and absorb any of the financial we do not have continuous at-sea deterrence, we have to changes that we are forced to undertake. decide at what point we are physically going to put the Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): deterrent to sea. That may require our having additional My right hon. Friend has rightly won admiration for military assets effectively to fight it out to sea if required. the very difficult settlement that he has had to reach in Those who think that taking risks with continuous this review. He is clear from his remarks that the Afghan at-sea deterrence because it is a cheap option economically campaign, which may be costing the British taxpayer up might need to think again in the light of what I have to £8 billion a year, has significantly skewed the shape said. of the core defence programme. Can this be quantified? The adaptable posture required by the NSC also Should not those distortions to the core defence programme means that we will be investing in new technology and also be funded from the reserve so that defence policy in capabilities more suited to the likely character of future the long term is not affected by what we are doing in conflict, such as cyber-security, while reducing our Afghanistan? stockholdings and capabilities that have less utility in the post-cold war world, such as heavy armour and Dr Fox: If my hon. Friend is saying that defence non-precision artillery. We will, however, maintain the should permanently have more money than it gets in ability to regenerate capabilities that are not needed any one year, neither I, nor—I suspect, as I look at now if threats change. Capabilities that we have the him—the shadow Defence Secretary would disagree option of regenerating include increased amphibious with that. We have to live within the financial constraints capability as well as heavy armour and artillery in the that we have. When we say that there were inevitable event that more is required. We have taken less risk distortions because of Afghanistan, that is merely to against those capabilities that are more difficult to state the blindingly obvious. We need to have a regular regenerate, such as submarines, to take the point made period of review so that we are able to take account, on by my hon. Friend the Member for Halesowen and a constant basis, of changing circumstances. That is Rowley Regis (James Morris). 1067 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1068 Review Review [Dr Fox] outlined earlier. That is required to tackle the unfunded liability in the defence programme, to live within our Alliances and partnerships remain a fundamental means as the deficit is addressed and to focus our efforts part of our approach. In taking decisions in the SDSR, on Afghanistan. Overall, the resources allocated for the we have given significant weight to the fact that we and spending review period will allow us to pursue today’s our NATO allies consciously rely on each other for operations and prepare for tomorrow, but that means particular capabilities. Sometimes even our biggest allies scaling back the overall size of the armed forces. do that. I think, for example, of the United States and To make those judgments, we have contrasted cost the British mine-hunting capabilities in the Gulf. savings and capability implications with the risks that we face in the real global security environment and our Ms Gisela Stuart: Our biggest ally always retains ability to reconstitute or regenerate capabilities that we certain sovereign capabilities. What would be the Secretary might need in future. We have taken the tough decisions of State’s thinking and planning on which of our sovereign that the previous Government ducked. The Prime Minister capabilities we need to maintain as opposed to where has set out to Parliament in his statement and in the we just share? White Paper the implications for the structure and establishment of the armed forces, and I will not tax the Dr Fox: If the hon. Lady will forgive me, I shall deal patience of the House or yourself, Madam Deputy later with our thinking about what the United Kingdom Speaker, by repeating each of them here. I will, though, needs to be able to do itself and in what circumstances. address specific issues later. We rely on our allies, and we will deepen our multilateral There are still difficult decisions to be taken for the and bilateral defence relationships. This week, we set coming period as we implement the SDSR, including out our deepened relationship with France. On Wednesday, the basing decisions mentioned by the hon. Member for as I intimated to the House the other day, I will have a Moray (Angus Robertson), who is no longer in his meeting with the new British-Scandinavian NATO group. place, and the rationalisation of the defence estate. As That is very important for a number of reasons. We the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) said, we want a closer bilateral relationship with Norway, which will also have the issue of allowances to deal with in the is one of our key strategic partners. We want to create a coming months. I can assure the House that we will take NATO framework that makes it easier for Sweden and those decisions as quickly as possible, to minimise Finland to have a closer relationship, and as a nuclear uncertainty, but in a way that is sensitive to economic power we want to give even greater reassurance to the and social pressures and the needs of our people and Baltic states about the reality of article 5 of the NATO their families. In addition, three further reviews are treaty. We also want to create regional structures to being undertaken to bring other areas of defence into make it easier to engage with Russia, where we can, on line with the new force structure. regional problem solving. It is a useful lesson for the UK that in a world in which there is a multi-polar Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): Will the power base, we need more different levers to act in the Secretary of State give us a little more colour about how interests of our national security. shocked he was by Labour’s legacy? The UK has unique national interests, however, and we cannot always expect to depend on our partners Dr Fox: In the interests of brevity, I will say that I when Britain’s direct national interests are threatened. I knew it was going to be bad, and it was much worse. wish to make it clear that we will maintain an autonomous capability to sustain a considerable and capable military Bob Russell: Will the rationalisation of the MOD force on an enduring basis, if required, for both intervention estate include such things as the scandal in 1995 of the and stabilisation operations. That means, at best effort, sale of the married housing stock to Annington Homes, a one-off intervention force of some 30,000, including and the ongoing revenue rip-off that Annington Homes maritime and air support, or a force of some 6,500 plus is enjoying at the expense of the public purse? enablers for enduring operations. That is not hugely dissimilar to the level of effort in Afghanistan today. Dr Fox: There is no doubt that we need to deal with As delivering effective defence capability in the armed forces accommodation. We will want to do so as 21st century becomes more expensive at a time when quickly as possible and in a way that produces the best budgets are under growing pressure, we should exploit and quickest improvement, at the best deal for the economies of scale and increase co-operation where taxpayer. We will learn all the lessons from the previous national security allows it and sovereign capability is Government, and even from times before them. not jeopardised. That means exploring deeper co-operation with NATO members, as demonstrated with France The three further reviews that I mentioned are the this week, and with partners further afield in key regions six-month study of the future role and structure of around the world. reserve forces; a review of force generation and sustainability by the service chiefs and the defence reform unit; and I wish to set out the future shape of our armed forces the remodelling of the MOD itself, which is overseen by and the process by which we have made our decisions. I Lord Levene’s defence reform unit. Let me be very will then deal with specific issues, particularly those on clear: I entirely agree with Lord Levene’s view about the which we have taken calculated risks with capability. staff in the MOD, who are among the most able people The SDSR is a point of departure, not the end of the I have worked with. I am sure that former Ministers line. We have set a path to 2020 and beyond, with would concur. However, I wish to be equally clear that regular reviews every five years. The first period, from the Department must be restructured to serve the interests 2010 to 2015, is necessarily a period of rebalancing our of the new national security posture, and smaller armed strategic direction, in the light of the factors that I forces will require a smaller system of civilian support. 1069 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1070 Review Review I am acutely aware that behind the bare numbers of decided to take a capability gap in carrier strike, because the reductions that we plan are loyal people, with livelihoods we assess that the risk of not having access to basing and families, who face an uncertain future through no and overflight for our fast jet force in the next decade is fault of their own. We will do everything we can to low. However, the same cannot be said looking further manage the process sensitively and with care and support, ahead. but manage it we must if we are to meet our vision of Secondly, we have decided to install catapult and the future force structure. The Government are determined arrester gear, which will allow greater interoperability, to reinvigorate and respect an enduring military covenant. particularly with US and French carriers and jets, and We cannot shield the armed forces from the consequences maximise the through-life utility of our carrier strike of the economic circumstances that we face, but we will capability. Thirdly, we have decided to acquire the carrier make progress wherever we can. I look forward to variant of the joint strike fighter. Adding the “cats and receiving soon the report of the independent armed traps” will allow us to use the carrier variant of the JSF, forces covenant taskforce that we set up earlier this year. which has a bigger payload and a longer range than the The second period, from 2015 to 2020, will be about STOVL variant planned by the previous Government. regrowing capability and achieving our overall vision. Overall, the carrier variant will be significantly cheaper, That will include the reintroduction of a carrier strike reducing the through-life cost compared with the STOVL capability, with the joint strike fighter carrier variant version. aircraft manned by a joint Royal Navy and RAF force, Contrary to popular belief, there will not be a new and an escort fleet including the Type 45 destroyer and, Queen Elizabeth class carrier in service without the soon after 2020, the Type 26 global combat ship, which planes to go on it, apart from in the period required by used to be called the future surface combatant—the law for us to have the carrier properly crewed up and names keep changing. We will also reconfigure the ready to accept the planes. The idea I have come across RAF fast jet fleet around the JSF and the Typhoon, in some parts of the media—that we can get brand-new and consolidate the multi-role brigade structure in the carriers and the brand-new planes to fly off them almost Army. on the same day—simply defies the complexity of the One of my goals as part of the SDSR was to reduce operation involved. the number of types of equipment used to provide the When the carrier enters service towards the end of same capability. Achieving that by 2020 will mean less the decade, the JSF will be ready to embark on it. Yes, duplication and less expense overall, when we take into there will be a delay to the programme as a consequence account the complex training and support requirements of the decisions I have mentioned, but unlike the previous of each piece of kit. That will include reducing the Government’s delay to the carrier programme in 2008, number of types of equipment in the air transport and which added £1.6 billion to the overall cost—more than helicopter fleets, and of destroyers and frigates. the whole Foreign and Commonwealth Office budget next year—and gave us nothing in return, our delay will Nevertheless, my very strong belief, which the Prime give us a carrier that is best configured for the next Minister shares, is that the structure that we have agreed 50 years. for 2020 will require year-on-year real-terms growth in the defence budget beyond 2015. It would be nice to do Mr Ainsworth: I am seriously concerned about the more sooner, but as the great hero of the Labour party, decision that the Government have taken. They have Tony Benn, once said, albeit in different circumstances, not only scrapped the Harrier, but retreated from STOVL, “the jam we thought was for tomorrow, we’ve already eaten.” going back to what is basically today’s and yesterday’s technology of “cats and traps”. They have left themselves How well he understood his own party. potentially reliant on two aircraft that do fundamentally There is a hard road ahead, but at the end of the the same thing, giving up the ability to use short-take-off process Britain will have the capabilities that it needs to and vertical-landing aircraft. This is about more than keep our people safe and live up to its responsibilities to the capability of the carrier. We are giving up—not our allies and friends, and our national interests will be temporarily, but permanently—the capability that the more secure. Harrier has given us. We will have two fleets of aircraft I turn to some specific issues. The carrier strike that fundamentally do the same thing. capability that we plan will give the UK the ability to Dr Fox: First, “cats and traps” are not yesterday’s project military power over land as well as sea, from technology. In fact, considerable expense is going into anywhere in the world, without reliance on land bases ensuring that there are more modern, more effective in other countries. Britain will require the strategic “cat and trap” systems. The United States is spending a choice and flexibility in force projection that carrier great deal of research and development money on that strike offers. I also believe that that capability should be at present. Secondly, if we are to have genuine as interoperable as possible with the allies with whom interoperability, it makes sense to have carriers that the we are most likely to work in future. The inherited American navy or the French can land on and, in the design of the carriers would not have achieved that. case of the French, use when their carrier is in refit and The House and the country must understand that they require ongoing training. It is perfectly rational to any decisions regarding the carriers must be taken in the buy the plane with the longer range and bigger payload, context of their extended service life of 50 years. The which is in fact cheaper. In the past, it was decided, for final captain of a Queen Elizabeth carrier has not even whatever reasons, to build 65,000-tonne carriers without been born yet. When they go out of service, I will be a “cat and trap” system, and that decision was augmented 109 years old and the shadow Defence Secretary a by the STOVL decision. That would have been the most sprightly 103. We are taking decisions now on what will expensive variant, with the shortest range and the smallest be best for us as a country in the middle of the century. payload. We are bringing those greater capabilities into That is why we have taken three decisions. First, we have better alignment with the carrier itself. 1071 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1072 Review Review [Dr Fox] Government loaded the dice against Harrier a long time before the last election. I fully understand the consequences The right hon. Member for Coventry North East of retiring Harrier for livelihoods and basing, and the mentioned the Harrier. We had to face up to the difficult emotiveness of this beautiful and iconic aircraft, particularly choices that the previous Government put off. Regrettably, in relation to the Falklands conflict of 1982, as everyone we have decided to retire HMS Ark Royal three years in the House will appreciate. However, I believe that we early and to retire the Harrier force—both in 2011. Of have made the right decision, based on unsentimental course, that is not unprecedented. The UK’s carrier military logic. strike capability was gapped during the late 1970s, as we The Falklands have been the subject of some comment transitioned from Buccaneer to Harrier itself. While in recent days. The Government are unequivocally Harrier was operating in Afghanistan between 2004 and committed to the defence of our overseas territories 2009, our ability to generate carrier strike was at best and dependencies, but the situation now is far removed severely curtailed. from that of the early 1980s. First, we maintain a far Over the next five years, life-saving combat air support more robust and capable force in the Falklands to act as to operations in Afghanistan has to be the overriding a deterrent and to secure our interests there, and that priority. In Afghanistan, the Joint Force Harrier did force is able to be reinforced as the need arises. Secondly, wonderful work, and I pay tribute to the Harrier aircraft, and more importantly, Argentina is no longer ruled by a the crews that have serviced them and the pilots who military junta that is repressive at home and aggressive have flown them since they entered service. During its abroad. Argentina is now a vibrant, multi-party democracy, deployment to Afghanistan, the Joint Force Harrier constructive on the world stage and pledged to peaceful flew in excess of 22,000 hours on more than 8,500 sorties, resolution of the issues that undoubtedly remain between more than 2,000 of which were close air support missions. us. Of course, we maintain robust contingency plans for It is my understanding that every Harrier pilot from times of crisis, and there is no questioning our resolve every Harrier squadron took part at some point during to defend the Falklands whenever required and from the Harrier’s deployment to Afghanistan. whatever quarter. Tough and unsentimental choices had to be made, The decision to cancel the Nimrod MRA4 programme however, and the military advice was that Tornado was was extremely difficult due to the nature of the military the more capable aircraft to retain, due to its wider tasks to which the aircraft was designed to contribute, capabilities and force size, for not only Afghanistan but the amount of public money that had been spent on it other significant contingent capabilities. Operations in and the impact of such a decision on the people who Afghanistan between 2004 and 2009 took their toll on have dedicated their careers to delivering this capability the Harrier force. By the time the aircraft was withdrawn or who depend on it for their livelihoods. However, the from theatre, the force’s ability to recuperate and regenerate severe financial pressures faced by the Government and a fully operational carrier strike capability—notwithstanding the urgent need to bring the defence programme into the strenuous efforts to do so by Joint Force Harrier—had balance meant that we could not retain all our existing understandably been affected. programmes, as recognised by the previous Government The decision taken by the previous Government in in their Green Paper. 2009 drastically to salami-slice the number of Harriers I recognise that this decision means taking some risks meant that, even if we had wanted to, we could not on the capability that Nimrod was to provide. Since the sustain our current fast-jet requirement in Afghanistan withdrawal of the Nimrod MR2 in March—a decision using Harriers alone. The decision in 2009 reduced the taken by the previous Government—the Ministry of number of Harriers from 18 force elements at readiness Defence has sought to mitigate the gap in capability to 10, but the military advice is that we require 40 force through the use, on a case-by-case basis, of other military elements at readiness of Harriers to maintain our fast-jet assets, including Type 23 frigates, Merlin anti-submarine contribution in Afghanistan on an enduring basis and warfare helicopters and Hercules C-130 aircraft, and by without breaching harmony guidelines. relying on assistance from allies and partners. In view of the sensitive and classified nature of some of those Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con): What steps military tasks and the implications for the protection of does my right hon. Friend intend to take to retain the our armed forces, including the nuclear deterrent, it is critical mass of flying skills of the absolutely admirable not possible for me to comment on those measures in and remarkable Fleet Air Arm? detail, but as the previous Government did, I am happy Dr Fox: The Fleet Air Arm will require something of to make the Opposition spokesman fully aware, as far a transitioning with the new joint strike fighter when we as the classification allows, of our decisions and the get towards the end of the decade. I have had discussions military advice upon which we take them. with my American counterparts, who have made it clear As Defence Secretary, I have concentrated today on that, should we require help to maintain skills in any issues within my remit, but the guiding principle of the way in the run-up to that period, the United States will SDSR has been to join national security efforts across make the facilities available to us, and we fully understand the Government, flowing from the direction that the that. Let me make it clear, as I did earlier, that the joint new National Security Council now delivers. The SDSR strike fighter will be flown from our carriers by both covers far more ground—from conflict prevention to Royal Navy and Air Force pilots. We will maintain a counter-terrorism, energy security, cyber-security and joint force, which is an important message to both border security, and resilience at home and overseas—and services at a time of uncertainty. I hope that hon. Members will take the opportunity to Some of the things we have read about Harrier have raise those wider issues today. been hugely over-simplistic. As a result of decisions The Government had to take some difficult decisions, taken in recent years, I am afraid that the previous and the transformation will be painful, but we will 1073 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1074 Review Review emerge with a robust national security structure and a played by so many MOD civilian staff, as the Secretary coherent set of capabilities that supports our foreign of State did. I should like to put on record the House’s policy goals of rebuilding our prosperity and safeguarding gratitude for the unheralded work of our security services. our security both overseas and at home, but I should I thought that the Secretary of State, in what was in like to end by restating my commitment to sustaining large part a thoughtful speech, struck a better tone on operations in Afghanistan. We must succeed there—that the issue of MOD redundancies than has been struck must be our main effort. At the heart of those operations before. Hitherto, there was almost a sense of celebration are the men and women of our armed forces, the at the reduction in head count. It will be reassuring for civilians and families who support them, the intelligence MOD officials, who are perhaps watching this debate or and security agencies, and all those who stand between will read Hansard, that there was no waving of Order us and those who would do us harm. The whole House Papers today at the announcement of potential future will agree that they are the best of the best and thank redundancies. them for their dedication, professionalism and selfless As the Prime Minister has rightly said in recent times, commitment. All of us in this country owe them a very our power and influence is enhanced by our integration deep debt of gratitude. with political, social and economic global networks. However, I sense that the unprecedented scale and pace 1.1pm of global change will, if anything, increase ever more Mr Jim Murphy (East Renfrewshire) (Lab): I am sharply in future. Although our openness increases the delighted to have the opportunity to respond in today’s threats that we face, conversely it assists us, in part, in debate and I welcome the Secretary of State’s comments. overcoming those contemporary challenges. Today’s threats At the beginning at least, his was a rather breathless are more complex and difficult to map, and they are speech. He spoke of being 109 years of age when the harder to repel. Terrorism, cyber-attack, natural resource new Queen Elizabeth type aircraft carriers go out of shortages, large-scale disaster or unconventional attacks service, but I hope he leaves more time to get to the from chemical or biological weapons all threaten our Chamber from the Ministry of Defence when he is 109. shores, our interests and our values. Although we might He certainly will not be able to get here at the speed he face fewer conventional threats, our defences at home did today. remain subject to frequent aerial and maritime probing Earlier in the week, the Secretary of State had to be and challenges. summoned to the House to explain in detail the treaties The strategic defence and security review was an with France, and today the House was treated to a quite opportunity to reshape the UK’s military force in that remarkable filibuster to accommodate his diary and changing global security landscape. Unfortunately, those of his fellow Ministers. I was tempted to reflect according to the Royal United Services Institute, 68% of that perhaps they were on French time, but that would the defence and security community felt that it was a have brought them here in time for business questions “lost opportunity for a more radical reassessment of the UK’s rather than making them late for this debate. I welcome role in the world”. the ministerial team, who took the approach of arriving It seems that the security review did not clearly define in shifts for their boss’s speech this afternoon. Britain’s place in the world, nor did it alter the balance Despite that, it is with a sense of honour that today I of Britain’s armed forces to meet existing and emerging am making my first speech at the Dispatch Box as the threats. The review leaves unanswered many questions shadow Secretary of State for Defence. My sense of about Britain’s place in this ever-changing world. pride is only slightly diminished by having the word “shadow” in my job title. Dr Fox: In that case, can the right hon. Gentleman Dr Fox: You had better get used to it. enlighten the House on what he and his party believe is Britain’s proper role in the world, and say how it differs Mr Murphy: I hope it will not be for too long. Even in from that set out by the National Security Council and opposition, it is an honour to work to support our the Government in the White Paper? armed forces and their families, and the defence of our nation and all our interests. The most important Mr Murphy: I will come to that later in my comments, responsibility of the Government is the safety and but it is clear that Britain must make a pragmatic security of our country. All MPs of all parties also assessment of our global ambition. As the Secretary of carry that responsibility. I want the House to know that State has acknowledged—tersely in his letter and, I am this Opposition will always act in the interests of what sure, in private conversations with others in government— we believe to be right for our country, and not any the review process has been driven largely by the cuts narrow party interest. that the Government have been determined to make. Although the Secretary of State and I may disagree Some people say that the 38-page document to which across the Dispatch Box, I want to tell him that I will the Secretary of State referred looks like a decent executive never question his personal commitment to the defence summary, but no fewer than 10 pages in it are entirely of our nation. All Conservatives are patriots, but the blank. In parts, it lacks historical accuracy. On page 23, Secretary of State must be aware that all patriots are we read: not Conservatives. Therefore, I look forward to working “For 800 years, the UK has been at the forefront of shaping the with the Government to ensure that our forces, who are relationship between the rights of individuals and powers and the best of Britain, operate with the right equipment. I obligations of the state”. also want to ensure that their service to their country is The document predicts future threats, which cannot be properly rewarded and valued, and where possible, that an exact science—we know that—but it lacks historical even more is done to value their dedication and patriotism. accuracy. The fact is that the UK did not exist in its In addition, we should also recognise the crucial role current form 800 years ago. A document that aims to 1075 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1076 Review Review [Mr Jim Murphy] Mrs Moon: Does my right hon. Friend agree that when the British press write about the Afghan campaign, set out a process and to predict the nature of future one of the problems is that we conflate Afghanistan and threats does not even get its history right. Its assessment Helmand, although the severe problems that Britain is of our nation’s past lacks real intellectual vigour— facing in Helmand are often not the same in the rest of [Interruption.] One of the Ministers who arrived a little the country? We must make it clear to the British public late for the Secretary of State’s speech says that that is a that outside Helmand there are positive conditions pedantic point, but I do not think that it is. To say that prevailing, good signs of development and huge progress they do not understand the nature or the history of this being made. We are at the front line of the most difficult collection of nations of the United Kingdom when it task, but we must not neglect the fact that huge successes comes to an assessment of our role in the world is not have also been achieved. pedantic. There are major challenges facing our national security, Mr Murphy: My hon. Friend, who has paid close as the Secretary of State has said, and as was emphasised attention to these matters over a long time, is right. only last weekend, with the bomb plots to bring down Those of us who supported the decision to take military cargo planes. The defence review rightly makes it clear action in Iraq and who supported the action in Afghanistan that primary among the myriad defence and security appreciate that those two conflicts have been conflated issues we face is Afghanistan. in public perception, which has not helped the debate I, my shadow Defence team and the shadow Foreign about Afghanistan. She raised an important point about Secretary appreciated the first of what I hope will be the misunderstanding and misapprehension about Helmand many regular briefings on Afghanistan held yesterday province. We heard from the MOD yesterday that Helmand in the Ministry of Defence. I also look forward to the province accounts for 1% of Afghanistan’s population. opportunity to visit Afghanistan, and of course I, along The UK’s forces are engaged in some of the heaviest with others on the Opposition Front Bench, will liaise fighting, and in some of the most difficult and most with the MOD about such visits. I want to make it clear complex areas of the insurgency, but there has been that we will work with the Government in a spirit of remarkable progress, in Helmand and in other parts of co-operation to help to bring the conflict to an end, and Afghanistan. It is right that she has put that on the to ensure peace and reconciliation in Afghanistan. Our record, and that we celebrate it here. forces—and, indeed, our enemies—should continually The work that is going on in justice, law and order, be reminded of that unity of purpose. Our military aim civil administration, economic activity and freedom of must be to ensure that never again can al-Qaeda use movement in Helmand and Afghanistan, which my Afghanistan as an incubator for terrorism, and we must hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) will use our military forces to weaken the Taliban to such an have seen and read about, is a cornerstone of a lasting extent that the Afghan people can determine their own political settlement, as are efforts to eradicate future. institutionalised corruption. Part of such a settlement Mike Gapes: May I join others who will no doubt relies on meaningful engagement with former insurgents. welcome my right hon. Friend to his new role? His was As a precondition for engagement, those who want a an excellent appointment. I was in Afghanistan last political stake in their country’s future must permanently week with the Foreign Affairs Committee, and we also sever ties with violence and accept the Afghan constitutional went to Pakistan. Does he agree that although the framework. In doing so, their interests will be recognised international community—or some of it, at least—has but constrained by the laws of the land and balanced by set deadlines, there should be conditions-based activity the interests and views of others. As the Government in Afghanistan, and that the international community take that important work forward, they will continue to might need to think again about what will be needed in have the Opposition’s full support. the future, if the proposed increase in the capabilities of I want to address a number of the points that the the Afghan forces are not sufficient by 2015? Secretary of State has made about Afghanistan recently. Mr Murphy: I have spoken to my hon. Friend and The first concerns the role of women in Afghan society. others who were on that visit to Afghanistan, and they Many now rightly assess that women’s role in Afghanistan commented on what they believed to be the significant has improved markedly beyond the pre-Taliban days in progress made there in recent years. No doubt he would Afghanistan. Things continue to improve more slowly like to put that on the record as well. It is significant and than we might wish. Nevertheless they have improved important for the Government to continue to offer significantly, and I urge the Government to remain clarity about the conditions-based approach to the 2015 vigilant and ensure that, as former Taliban fighters are timeline; I am sure that the Secretary of State will have reintegrated, the welcome progress made in guaranteeing heard those comments and will seek to reassure the freedom and equal rights for women is not compromised House and the nation on that matter. in accommodating those with harder-line opinions. The international strategy, which my hon. Friend the As my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South said, Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) saw on his visit, the Government have set 2015 as a target for the conclusion has been focusing on building up key pillars of the state of our forces’ combat role. We all wish to see our forces and delivering better lives for the Afghan people. There home as soon as possible. When I, along with my right is a real record of sometimes fragile achievement being hon. Friends the leader of the Labour party and the carefully built upon in Afghanistan, and it is the bravery shadow Foreign Secretary, met General Petraeus recently, of our forces, which is renowned across the globe—we we talked about the conditions-based progress towards all celebrate that again today—and their professionalism, full withdrawal. It is essential that the UK Government which we must also recognise, that has helped to make are clear in private and public about the stages and that progress achievable. conditions in advance of our withdrawal. 1077 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1078 Review Review Crucial to Afghan and international ambition is the Prime Minister was asked about that at Question Time capacity of home-grown security forces to take on on Wednesday, and gave a categoric commitment to greater responsibility. It is important for the Government continue to be engaged in Yemen. In addition to the to make it clear whether they have undertaken an scanners being delivered, I look forward to the Government assessment of the capacity of Afghan forces to meet the making it clear that ministerial engagement will continue, 2015 timeline. Although the immediate concern about with visits to Yemen in the near future. It is important the quantity of recruits has abated—with 305,000 now for that political public commitment to be there for all in service—there remain genuine worries about the quality to see. of some of those undoubtedly brave recruits. There is There are points in the review that I and many others clearly a shortage of trainers for the Afghan forces, and welcome: the commitment to hold reviews every five although the UK is doing its bit, it is essential for that years, taking forward the previous Government’s work fundamental issue to be resolved quickly if the Afghan on cyber-crime to prevent organised crime, terrorism security forces are to be able to perform the functions and other states from making malign attacks on our that the Afghan Government wish them to. I urge the infrastructure, the 25% reduction in warheads, and the Government, therefore, to continue to monitor not just continued commitment to increase funding for our special the quantity but the quality of the Afghan security forces. However, among all the talk of fiscal deficits, I forces. There is also, of course, a wider societal issue in want now to turn to the strategic deficit at the heart of Afghanistan concerning levels of literacy, which impact the Government’s plans. on the ability of the Afghan armed forces—but that is a longer term societal challenge. There are strategic contradictions between the Government’s assessment of future threats, as laid out Finally, on Afghanistan, we welcome the commitments in the security strategy, and the tangible action to that the Secretary of State and Prime Minister have prepare for them, as laid out in the defence review. given in assuring the House that the impact of the Those two documents were separated by just one day in defence review is not intended to affect the front line in their publication, but face in different directions in Afghanistan. However, Opposition Members—and, I important ways. The security strategy rightly says that it am certain, many Government Members—will be seeking will prioritise flexibility and adaptability across the a constant assurance that nothing in the small print of armed forces, but the defence review surrenders some of the defence review or those flowing from it will affect that capacity in the Royal Navy. The Government said our efforts in Afghanistan right up until the end of that they wanted to take tough long-term decisions, but combat operations. have put off Trident—to appease their coalition partners, More widely, my right hon. Friend the Member for I think . Leicester East (Keith Vaz) asked about Yemen. The Leader of the Opposition rightly asked the Prime Minister Mike Gapes: Where are they? about that at Prime Minister’s questions this week, and we were reassured by the Prime Minister’s response. It is Mr Murphy: There are no coalition party Back-Bench important that Yemen does not become a safe haven for Members here to disagree, so I hope that the one terrorist recruitment, training and operations. It is also belated arrival on the Front Bench does not take offence. important the country’s economic decline and instability does not threaten regional security and economic interests. Some people believe that the decision on Trident Continued conflict and loss of livelihoods could result owes more to defence of the coalition than to defence of in increasing poverty and a humanitarian crisis, and the realm. The security strategy marks a significant mass migration within the country and beyond. It is shift with an emphasis on mitigating risk, the ability to crucial, therefore, that we work with the Yemeni deter, and the attributes of soft power. All that is rightly Government to counter the terror threat, including contained in the security strategy. However, the defence through our support in helping them to disrupt al-Qaeda. review lacks emphasis on cultural and diplomatic power in complementing traditional hard power. Indeed, the Terrorism, however, is not the only threat facing comprehensive spending review may have set back the cause Yemen. Al-Qaeda looks to exploit instability where it of cultural diplomacy by many years. Moving the World can, and it is of strategic importance for the UK to Service, which has been so important to so many people remain engaged in Yemen. in so many ways, from the Foreign Office may signify a Keith Vaz: I congratulate my right hon. Friend the serious scaling down of cultural diplomacy. shadow Secretary of State on his appointment, and I grew up—or at least, spent all my teenage years—in welcome his wise words today. Let us get the language South Africa, where people had to be bilingual in on Yemen right. It is not a failed state, as some have English and Afrikaans. I remember watching the news said, but it has the capacity to fail if we do not assist it. on television and listening to South African radio, and We must follow up the promises made to the Yemeni even as youngsters we knew instinctively that we could Government in London in January to provide basic not trust what we were hearing, regardless of what help, such as security scanners, which I understand have language it was in. Whether it was in English or Afrikaans, still not been delivered. Let us help Yemen and engage we knew that it was state propaganda. The only place to with it, rather than criticising it. turn to, which my family did, was the BBC’s World Service. It was the one source of accurate and reliable Mr Murphy: My right hon. Friend is experienced in information that people throughout the world regularly such matters, and he is right to raise that point. So far turned to at times of difficulty or when seeking the today we have not heard anyone speaking of Yemen as truth. Labour Members will continue to take a keen a failed state, but it has the capacity to become so, with interest in what moving the World Service from the all that that means. I am sure that the Government Foreign Office will mean to quality and reach in different heard my right hon. Friend’s plea for scanners. The languages throughout the globe. 1079 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1080 Review Review Mr James Arbuthnot (North East Hampshire) (Con): When I was in the Negev desert, I met Bedouin Does the shadow Secretary of State agree that the role tribesmen who talked about the power of the BBC that the World Service could play in a country like World Service, which again is the one source of reliable Pakistan, where obviously we cannot and would not and objective information in that part of the world. I do wish to send troops, is vital to the stability of the region, not want to labour the point, but I am certain that we and would help our effort in Afghanistan? will return to it, as it has arisen in the comprehensive spending review. Mr Murphy: The right hon. Gentleman is correct, The Government said in the defence review that they and we can compete in our admiration of the BBC’s wanted to combat emerging threats, but we have heard World Service and all that it does, including the launch little, in the review or since, about concrete plans to of the Arabic service relatively recently, the broadcasting address threats to energy, food or water security. Thanks in Pashtun, and the fact that President Obama used the to the review the Secretary of State’s to-do list has medium of the World Service to broadcast. Although grown. I do not doubt his ability, but he will have a we are occasionally frustrated with some things that the packed day. Rather than announcing details in the BBC does— review, the Government have delayed decisions until another day. A review has been set up to consider plans Mr Dai Havard (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab): for procurement. Rather than coming up with a strategy Will my right hon. Friend give way? for integrating, a review has been set up; rather than setting out efficiency savings in detail, a review has been Mr Murphy: In a few moments. We are occasionally set up; force generation, counter-terrorism and preparedness frustrated with some things that the BBC does, but in for civil emergencies are all subject to review. Add to principle, as an institution the World Service is something that the fact that the plethora of parliamentary questions that everyone in this country who feels a sense of pride suggest that the Government have not done their homework, and patriotism should be remarkable proud of. and that they must do better. Their strategy has been rushed, they did not ask many of the right questions, Mr Havard: As someone who lives in Wales, I regularly and they still have not come up with many answers. listen to the World Service, for reasons similar to those that my right hon. Friend gave for listening to it in I look forward to playing a full part in many of the South Africa: we have a colonial Government these reviews, but the sheer number is further proof that days. I echo the point made by the right hon. Member the entire process has been rushed. At the heart of the for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot), the Chairman strategic incoherence is the back-to-front decision making of the Defence Committee, that in Helmand province leading to the review.For all the claims of cross-Government particularly, and other parts of Afghanistan, the really co-operation, the defence review has become a spending important medium of information is the radio. It is not review—cutting what could be cut to meet fiscal priorities, the television, or Fox News, as it is in America. The not doing what could be done to reshape Britain’s power of what the right hon. Gentleman said is palpable armed forces around strategic security goals. To answer to anyone who visits the place. the strategic questions, we needed a thorough examination of foreign policy flexibility, defence needs and how to make defence more efficient in the longer term, not Mr Murphy: We seem to be entering an Adjournment simply a drive for immediate savings now. debate on the importance of the BBC World Service. Let me turn to some of the other points that the Mike Gapes: Will my right hon. Friend give way? Secretary of State mentioned. On Nimrod, I welcome his commitment to share what he can with the shadow Mr Murphy: I will give way to my hon. Friend, in the Foreign Secretary and me. However, there is a sense of expectation that both interventions are on a similar disquiet in the country about the impact on the deterrent, subject, and then respond to them both. and there are particular worries in parts of Scotland about the impact on air force bases. Mike Gapes: Reference has been made to Pakistan. Let me turn to the aircraft carriers, which my right My right hon. Friend may not be aware that the BBC hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North East World Service gave evidence to the Select Committee on (Mr Ainsworth), the former Defence Secretary, has Foreign Affairs and said that because of financial spoken of. We already know that for a decade or more, restrictions, it could not go ahead with an Urdu language the UK will have no carrier strike capability of its own. television service that it had hoped to establish. Does he The Government have entered into two 50-year defence agree that that is highly regrettable, and that the Foreign treaties with France, and although we welcome them in and Commonwealth Office, while it has responsibility principle, there are still many unanswered questions. In for funding the World Service for the next two years, opposition, the Conservatives played fast and loose should reconsider? with Euroscepticism when the Labour Government mooted defence co-operation. By contrast, we welcome a bilateral Mr Murphy: My hon. Friend raises the crucial issue approach with our European neighbours. We will continue of funding support, and the World Service’s reach and to support those efforts and ask the important questions. ability to do remarkable things, and to be a presence We are not clear whether those treaties, which have now and a trusted friend of people across the globe who been deposited in the Library, will contain legally binding have few other sources of reliable and objective guarantees. Last week in response to questions, the information in their own language. The Minister will Prime Minister told the House: have heard the comments that have been made, and it “It is not easy to see in the short term the need for that sort of would be extraordinarily worrying if the sort of cuts carrier strike”.—[Official Report, 19 October 2010; Vol. 516, that my hon. Friend has mentioned came to pass. c. 808.] 1081 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1082 Review Review Given the nature of those documents and the nature of I declare an interest, as the honorary colonel of the the threat, the fact is that there is enormous uncertainty. Bristol university officer training corps. One of their Despite what the Prime Minister has said, and despite distinguished former officers, the Minister of State, the fact that the title of the Government’s own strategy Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, my document refers to an “age of uncertainty”, they have hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford not been able to persuade the country that they feel (Mr Prisk), now sits on the Front Bench, while the certain that we will not need carrier strike capability daughter of my right hon. Friend the Member for over the next decade. As the Chair of the Select North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot), the Chairman Committee on Defence has asked, if the Government of the Defence Committee, is one of their most glittering feel sure that we can do without that ability for a alumnettes. I want the Secretary of State to be particularly decade, why are they equally sure that we will not need a aware of the exceptional work of the OTC this summer, strike capability once that decade has passed? Our when they deployed to Canada at full unit strength to approach has led to our friends passing polite take part in Exercise Prairie Thunder, an extremely comment, while others snigger up their sleeves about a important training operation that, as I am sure the maritime nation building the two greatest ships in our House is aware, put formed battle groups through their history while the country is devoid of carrier strike paces before operational deployments, most particularly capability for a decade. to Afghanistan. The cadets were attached to the opposition In conclusion, I share the worry of many in this force, which is much the most interesting and fun thing House and beyond the Commons—a worry echoed in to do, and they performed magnificently. the Defence Committee’s report. The process has been I raise that because I want the Secretary of State to rushed. Mistakes may have been made, and some of congratulate the cadets on their efforts. They were them may be serious. With respect, I hope that the extremely professional and did very well. I also want to Defence Committee is wrong, but I fear that it may be thank the Ministry of Defence and all those responsible right. I want to finish my comments in the same tone in for helping, and to congratulate Lieutenant-Colonel which I started. Nine years into a military commitment Petersen and all those who arranged the exercise. I want in Afghanistan, and with up to five more in a combat the Secretary of State to understand that there is a role ahead for our country and our forces, it is essential wider utility to the university officer training corps, in that we again commit ourselves to a bipartisan approach supporting the regular Army. The exercise presented a to Afghanistan. For all our disagreements on so many tremendous opportunity for officer cadets to work with other issues facing our country, we are at one in supporting regular Army units, to everyone’s advantage. I hope our forces as they face up to our enemies, and their very much that he will remember that point when families as they start to think of another Christmas important decisions are taken about the OTCs, who separated from their loved ones. As our country comes make an important contribution to the military life of together this week to commemorate the lives of those this country and provide an invaluable footprint at who have been lost in conflict through the ages, it is also universities. right that today we celebrate the enormous contribution When the Prime Minister announced the review, I and immeasurable bravery of our men and women in welcomed especially the careful analysis done to support uniform. it, and I welcome most of the conclusions that have been reached. However, as the Prime Minister agreed 1.33 pm on the day that the review was announced and as the Secretary of State said this afternoon, this is just the Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con): In the week starting point for a much more fundamental transformation before Armistice day, I, along with every other Member of defence in this country, so that in 10 years’ time we of this House, salute the memory of the fallen and will have a defence posture and capability capable of extend my thoughts and sympathies to their families, as securing our national interests at home and abroad. An well as to those who have been wounded, to wish them a enormous body of much more detailed work now needs speedy recovery. I further pay a heartfelt tribute to the to be done on strategy, capability and all the rest. men and women of the British armed forces, wherever they are serving—sea, land or air—and most especially Let me take this opportunity also to congratulate my to those in Afghanistan; to the service families, who just hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex by keeping the home fires burning do invaluable work (Mr Jenkin) on the excellent report that the Select for the nation; and to the civilian staff in the Ministry of Committee on Public Administration has produced on Defence and elsewhere, who support our armed forces strategy. He has made an invaluable contribution, and extremely well. the Government need to pay careful attention to the I welcome the new shadow Secretary of State. I am points that he has made. delighted to tell him that I had the privilege of working The purpose of the 2010 strategy review—and on the Green Paper of his right hon. Friend the Member presumably that of all other reviews—is to achieve a for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth), the former strategy that matches ends, ways and means. The most Secretary of State, which was valuable pre-thinking for immediate signal to come out of the SDSR is that the some of the work that went into the SDSR. It was not financial realities confronting the coalition Government— the right hon. Gentleman’s fault, but looking back and the country—have forced them to make cuts that perhaps the only mistake was that none of the aspirations they would clearly much rather not have had to make. It that we discussed was in any way linked to financial is important to recognise that the SDSR has inevitably considerations. They were really linked more to the resulted in a real reduction in Britain’s ability to undertake question of capability. To that extent, the Green Paper strategic power projection. The jarring gong of reality did an important job, even though its conclusion at the has sounded, and the truly dismal lessons of the past end of the day was held to be rather unrealistic. 13 years have had to be learned in a very brief period. 1083 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1084 Review Review [Nicholas Soames] Afghanistan? No, we do not. It is a gross waste of money, and they should have got on and done that a As for the individual services, I would say this. First, I long time ago. Again, those could be stored with small am afraid that I simply do not understand the stance of quantities of equipment used for training competent the Royal Navy, which would leave it unable to have reserve brigades to be held at low readiness. The same anything but an absolutely minimal presence across the could go for much of our amphibious shipping. globe. That seems to be an appalling decision by the The leadership of the UK armed forces, as I know naval planners, and they will—mark my words—come the Secretary of State understands, has always shown a always to regret it. Secondly, I simply believe that the disappointing disregard for the real potential of a Royal Air Force has got it wrong, while the Army has transformed Territorial Army, Royal Naval Reserve and come up with a sensible, pragmatic and workable solution. Royal Air Force voluntary reserve. They need to be However, will the Secretary of State tell me how he sees ordered to go away and undertake a root-and-branch the development of the use of drone aircraft and who review to re-balance armed forces to take proper benefit will be responsible for using them? What will be the from this cost-effective and potentially powerful asset. I configuration of the armoured regiments after the loss warmly welcome the steps taken for a review of our of the Challenger tanks? He is absolutely right to take reserve forces, headed by General Houghton, and I pay those steps to retire—or, at least, to mothball—some of particular tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for the Challenger tanks. What will the armoured regiments Canterbury (Mr Brazier), who has down the years look like and what will their task be? championed the TA in this House with great vigour, I warmly welcome the treaty signed between the power and energy. French and British Governments. In truth, this has been 40 or 50 years in the making, and only now have My second theme is the need to continue to build the Prime Minister and the President of the French momentum for transformation. As many have said, the Republic managed to bring to harbour a very difficult strategic defence and security review is a beginning, not and extremely important step for this country and for an end, but how can defence build momentum around France. I am quite clear that it was the right thing to do. the need to transform our armed forces without the The most important step and the real game changer is catalyst of the SDSR? I was truly disappointed to hear with regard to the nuclear issues. I strongly and warmly the new permanent secretary in her first pronouncement welcome the treaty—although I know that my hon. on Monday say that the SDSR would be taken forward Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex has through the defence planning process. I have to tell the some reservations—and I think it will be but a precursor House that this is the same broken defence planning to further and greater co-operation. process that got the Ministry of Defence into the appalling I have three big points to make: first, on the reserves; mess that it is in now. This is about horse-trading, secondly, on the need to maintain momentum around delaying, single-service rowing and general fudging of transformation; thirdly, on the Ministry of Defence issues. What we need is real transformation. That game headquarters. has definitely been started by the Secretary of State and I ask the Secretary of State to continue to examine it is clear that he has the will to see it through. I very how better to use our reserves. We in the UK are out of much hope that he will do so, and get his way. kilter with all our major allies. About 40% of US That leads me to my third point about the MOD. The combat capability is generated by reserves. For example, best four years of my life were spent as Minister of the US deploys the National Guard brigades to Afghanistan State for the Armed Forces. I loved every single minute where, after training, they perform on par with regular of it; I worked with the most wonderful people. They forces. The National Guard flies fast jets, including the are marvellous people, but the MOD has become a vast 5th generation F-22 Raptor. The UK has demolished and cumbersome beast. It centralises all power and the capability of reserves to deploy as combat units. freezes all decision making. Absolutely no one is accountable They are now used as trickle reinforcements to regulars. and no one is ever held to account. Difficult decisions This may work well in Afghanistan—part of our main are nearly always avoided, and vested interests always effort, as the Secretary of State said—and may help to prevail. For a start, the single services plans organisation allay regular overstretch. It is, however, a completely needs to be turned upside down and a far more purple unimaginative approach to defence as a whole and a approach is required. There are more three-star officers gross waste of a magnificent potential asset. and officials in the headquarters now than there were Much of our war-fighting capability is required at 20 years ago when our armed forces were two thirds low readiness. As the House knows, this country faces larger. no major external existential threat, and the opportunity to man much of it with expanded reservist capability I would like to remind the House of what I said on and capacity clearly exists. Do we really need 300-plus 15 October 2009 in a debate on defence policy: fast jets at high readiness? No, we do not. Huge savings “How can anyone seriously justify the creation last year of the could be made, perhaps by placing two thirds of the post of director general of strategy to serve in addition to the force in reserve and building over the next 10 years the director general of policy, who did the job perfectly well when I reserve capability to operate them. The Royal Air Force was a Minister? How can anyone justify creating a commercial has a large alumni of brilliant fast-jet pilots, who would director general, a chief of defence materiel, a deputy chief of love to be better used. RAF regular pilots are reportedly defence staff personnel and a director general of human resources? restricted to 10 flying hours a month—fewer than US It is a crazy, absurd, overblown bureaucracy.”—[Official Report, 15 October 2009; Vol. 713, c. 503.] National Guard pilots. Do we really need to man the tanks and artillery That must be dealt with. The Secretary of State will required for general war fighting with expensive regulars have to move very quickly on this if he is to get his way who are needed for operations on other equipment in on other matters. 1085 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1086 Review Review Mr Jenkin: My hon. Friend is making some extremely House should bear in mind as all these changes are powerful points. Does he agree that the emphasis now being made, and as they think about the men and seems to have become a competition not between the women at the sharp end—the people who end up having three services, but between military personnel and civilian to deal with decisions, sometimes very bad decisions, personnel? The fact that civilian personnel have given made in the Ministry of Defence. themselves equivalent ranks to military personnel has Lord Wavell said: put them more in direct competition, so that they “in the last resort, the end of all military training, the settling of double up the functions of the armed forces. all policy, the ordering of all weaponry and all that goes into the makings of the armed forces is that the deciding factor in battle Nicholas Soames: My hon. Friend is right. The problem will always be this. That sooner or later, Private so-and-so will, of is that there are overlaps at every level of decision his own free will and in the face of great danger, uncertainty and taking in the Ministry of Defence. Two separate audiences chaos, have to advance to his front in the face of the enemy. If all are competing with each other. It is extraordinary that that goes wrong, after all the training, the intensive preparation and the provision of equipment and expenditure, the system has an institution that understands the ethos of command failed.” is so bad at doing it itself. Some of the most dreadful things were brought to me when I was a Minister. There Despite everything, the system has not failed. might have been a terrible military cock-up and it The House needs to remember, in the midst of the would be taken away to be examined. The issue would sometimes idiotic and petty political arguments that come back six months later, but everyone would have separate us in all parts of this House of Commons, that had their fingers over it and Ministers would end up these young men and women are doing something being told that it had been a great military triumph. It is really extraordinary, and doing it at great personal true that no one is ever held accountable. The decision danger and risk to themselves. Ministers must never making is very lame and very long-winded. forget, in this great talk of strategy, this plethora of change and all that will go on at the top, with headquarters Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): being got rid of and people being shuffled around, that May I give a practical example to illustrate my hon. they must be able to continue to deliver the really Friend’s point? I learned to my horror that the vice-chief remarkable people who are able to do the job for which of the defence staff had recruited a civilian medical all this money is spent. That must be kept at all times in adviser, to parallel the function of the three-star surgeon- the forefront of the minds of the Secretary of State and general who is doing a very good job—and, of course, the shadow Secretary of State. at great expense. Perhaps that provides an example of a post the could be cut. 1.53 pm Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): It is Nicholas Soames: My hon. Friend makes an extremely a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Mid vivid and important point. We can bet our bottom Sussex (Nicholas Soames). I echo his tribute to our dollar that there would have been a frightfully good armed forces—not just the fallen, but all of them. I reason for doing it—it should have been blown out of spent two years as Minister for the Armed Forces and the water on day one. one as Secretary of State for Defence during a period All this has created the mess we are in, with a £38 billion when we were not only suffering the greatest losses of overspend. One of the most important jobs of the modern times, but fighting at the highest level of capability Secretary of State and the Administration is to build an that we have had to achieve recently, and showing what agile strategic military headquarters and Department of our armed forces were capable of. That impressed on State which are able to respond effectively to the rapidly me what amazing people they are: they are worthy of changing environment of the 21st century. That does our wholehearted support. not exist in the Ministry of Defence at present, and it It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for must be created, which will mean considerable Mid Sussex for many other reasons. As he said, he was decentralisation. The front-line commanders-in-chief very helpful when I was producing a Green Paper while need to be given the tools and the space that they need I was a Minister, and his commitment to the armed to do the job. As has been said, they need to be allowed forces is recognised by nearly everyone. I do not think it to get on with it, and to stop being micro-managed by was entirely recognised by the sergeant-major who was civil servants in Whitehall. responsible for his training at Sandhurst, if all the I am very pleased that the Secretary of State has stories that he has told me are true, but everyone else engaged Lord Levene and a team of admirable and recognises it—and, of course, his ancestry rivals my extremely experienced experts from the private sector to own. [Laughter.] assist in this task, but if they are to drive the huge My admiration for the current Secretary of State is changes that are needed, senior officers and officials growing by the minute. I have to say that he has displayed must recognise that what they have built has failed huge capability in the political field, both in the House catastrophically, and must change. They must understand today and elsewhere. In the political arena, he is emulating the need to transform. The senior military and officials some of the skills displayed by the Duke of Wellington, need to own the change themselves, and they need to who used to hide his horses on reverse slopes and show drive it forward. It will be a complete and fundamental his strength where he felt weakest. The Secretary of change of culture, but it must be achieved. State has done the same this afternoon: he has lectured Let me end by reading out a quotation that I have us about strategy—he has used the phrases of the read out during almost every speech on defence that I lecture circuit—because he knows jolly well that what have made in the House for years and years. It is a has been presented to the nation in the last few weeks is remarkable speech made by Lord Wavell, which the far from a strategy. What we have is an SPSR, or 1087 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1088 Review Review [Mr Bob Ainsworth] had gone. What the American President said in autumn 2009—albeit unfortunately taking a long time to say “seriously pretend spending review”, not a strategic it—was that by 2011 there would be a draw-down of the security review. I think the Secretary of State knows additional troops put into Afghanistan. He did not say that, but he does his very best to hide it, and he will do there would be a withdrawal and an end to the combat his very best to work within it. He has fought his corner mission. It was the British Prime Minister who said hard in Government, and he is to be respected for that. that, and as he is the leader of the nation providing the However, we never quite received an answer from the second largest troop contribution, that announcement Secretary of State to the intervention from my hon. was by no means insignificant in respect of the ISAF Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston contingent. (Ms Stuart). He talked a great deal about how we were The British Prime Minister named a date for the total joining our commitment to Afghanistan with the growing end of the combat mission for party political reasons. capability of the Afghan national security forces. The We can establish that by considering the people he right hon. Member for North East Hampshire consulted as against those he failed to consult. If the (Mr Arbuthnot), the Chairman of the Select Committee, reasons for the announcement had been to do with the tried to help him by telling us again what we all know—how operational mission, he would have consulted the Defence long we have been in Afghanistan—but the question and Foreign Secretaries and the Chief of the Defence was very simple: did the Prime Minister consult the Staff, but as both the hon. Member for Harwich and Secretary of State before he announced the 2015 withdrawal North Essex (Mr Jenkin) and I know, the person he date for our combat mission in Afghanistan? consulted was the Deputy Prime Minister. Answer came there none, but we know what the answer is. The Prime Minister did not consult the Mrs Moon: At the beginning of today’s debate the Secretary of State. He did not consult his Defence Defence Secretary was asked whether or not he was Secretary, he did not consult his Foreign Secretary, and consulted on the withdrawal of British troops, and he he did not consult his Chief of the Defence Staff. We said by way of reply that the 2015 date was arrived at know whom the Prime Minister consulted before he because the Afghan President had stated that he wanted made that decision: he consulted the Deputy Prime to have strategic control over the defence of Afghanistan Minister. This was a political decision, made for political by 2014. Does it not therefore follow that if the Afghan reasons. We have more than 9,000 troops in theatre in President decides by 2014 that he is not ready to take Afghanistan, facing an enemy whose main tactic is to over that strategic command and control, we will have wait until we tire and then to inherit a victory, but for to stay longer? Perhaps the Prime Minister should political reasons, and no others, the Prime Minister of discuss and consult on that matter with the Defence this country announced an end date for our combat Secretary. mission, playing into the hands of the enemy by transferring the pressure from the Taliban to the Afghan Government. Mr Ainsworth: Well, the decision has been taken, and I am not saying that there is not a huge need for it has been repeatedly reiterated. It is not going to be pressure on the Afghan Government. The single weakest reversed, so we can ponder it as much as we like, but our point of the campaign of the international security armed forces and others will have to plan within the assistance force in Afghanistan lies in the weaknesses parameters that have been set for them. All I would say and corruption of its Government, and if we fail to put to my hon. Friend is that if the reason she has advanced that right, the mission will most certainly fail. But the for the 2015 decision is correct, President Karzai would decision to remove the pressure on the main enemy for have been consulted before the announcement was made, domestic political reasons without even consulting the but as the Defence Secretary was not consulted, I do Defence Secretary, the Foreign Secretary or the Chief not believe that President Karzai was consulted either. of the Defence Staff was astonishing. The person who was consulted was the Deputy Prime Minister, and that is what gives us the key insight into Mr Jenkin: I have great respect for the way in which the motivation for this announcement. the right hon. Gentleman conducted himself as Defence Secretary in very difficult circumstances, but I really do Dr Murrison: I think the right hon. Gentleman is think that he is talking complete rubbish about this. getting distracted over this consultation issue. The central When I last visited Afghanistan, the Americans had question is whether the Afghan national army is going already indicated that they were minded to withdraw, to be in a fit state in five years to guarantee the country and the effect of that was to galvanise the Afghan internally and externally. Does he seriously think that if political process. The stalemate in the Afghan political it is not ready in five years, it will ever be ready? process has been the main obstacle to progress in Afghanistan. I believe that the Prime Minister made the Mr Ainsworth: Plans are in place, and the argument right announcement, and I have no doubt that my right the hon. Gentleman puts is part of the cover for the hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence was 2015 decision, but I know that, privately if not publicly, properly consulted. he has no doubts about the real reasons that decision was taken, and he knows that what I am saying is true. Mr Ainsworth: I have the greatest respect for the hon. Many other people know it to be true, too. Gentleman as well. I know that he follows these issues, On the strategic defence review, I do not deny the and takes them very seriously. As I have said, there is a problems the Government were facing, although they need for pressure on the Afghan Government—I do not are doing their very best to exaggerate the difficulties we doubt that—but let us not pretend that the British left them. They keep on mentioning the figure of £38 billion, Government only went as far as the American Government and if they persist in doing so eventually somebody will 1089 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1090 Review Review apply their common sense and realise that it is a bit of sets of maintenance for two separate fleets of fast jets an exaggeration. There was overheating in the defence that do fundamentally the same thing, but having given budget, but the only way we can get even close to up short take-off and vertical landing capability. That £38 billion is by assuming a flat cash settlement for capability is not only required for flying off carriers; it is more than 10 years and no trimming of defence aspirations. required for other scenarios too—day-one warfare involving That is not what the Government did and it is not what failed states, for example. A Harrier can take off in a big any alternative Government would do. car park, but the JSF basically needs a full-size runway However, I do not blame the Government for in order to be able to operate. That capability would be exaggerating the difficulties they inherited because they greatly valued by the US Marine Corps if the programme did have some very difficult decisions to take. They had been maintained, but now that the British Government faced an extremely acute financial situation and they had have pulled out it will not be available to us. I am not at to try to conduct a strategic defence review with the all sure that the Government have not made a significant Army in the field. I congratulate them on their efforts to mistake in that regard. do that, although I think they could have tried harder. Let me return to how well the Government did. The They could have consulted more and therefore not Defence Secretary fought his corner and the headline rushed, and they need not have been totally dominated cut in the defence budget is 8%, but in reality it is by the financial considerations, but they did their best 13%. That is because the Treasury has won and it has in very difficult circumstances. transferred the costs of the deterrent to the core budget. I also congratulate the Government on their decision That is getting very little attention, but it is equivalent to invest in cyber-security. That is a genuine area of to another 5% cut in the defence budget. The Government weakness that needs to be addressed, but is the investment put off the decision on the renewal of the deterrent and they are making in cyber-capability being counted towards the Prime Minister told the House in a fantastic piece of our 2% NATO target for defence spending? What else salesmanship that he had actually managed to save are they putting into that in order to get to the 2% figure money while doing so. Well, he managed to save money and thereby shield themselves from the fact that there by the normal process of the initial gate assessment that are considerable defence cuts here that could—it depends is going on: by cutting the number of warheads and of on how we count this—take us below that target figure? tubes. That would have been done, irrespective of who the Government were, as part of the assessment phase of Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): I join others the deterrent, because both parties are committed to the in thanking the right hon. Gentleman for the work he maintenance of a minimum credible nuclear deterrent. did as Secretary of State. We all know that he inherited But again the decision to delay the deterrent was one a very difficult situation and he did the best he could in made for political reasons—for coalition reasons—not the circumstances. He is also my constituency neighbour for industrial reasons or for reasons of capability. No of course, and we work together on other issues. matter what the Prime Minister tries to say to the The right hon. Gentleman has alluded several times House, that decision, on its own, costs this country to the fact that the review was a spending review rather billions of pounds—it certainly costs in excess of £1 billion than a strategic defence review. Does he honestly believe and I would say the figure is probably £2 billion. So for that if Labour had won the last election, defence would the purposes of keeping peace in the coalition for the have had a better financial settlement than has been next five years, we have thrown away between £1 billion achieved under this Government? and £2 billion on the deterrent. The Prime Minister accused us, with a degree of justification, of shirking Mr Ainsworth: I have to say that the answer is, “Not hard decisions and pushing things to the right, but necessarily.” I think we would have taken more time and while he was saying that—while those words were falling consulted more broadly, however. I think we would from his mouth—he was doing exactly the same thing. have got industry on board and carried more people That is one reason why this is not a strategic defence with us, but I am not sure how well we would have done. review but a political fix and a spending review, and I will come on to that issue later, however, as now there most certainly with regard to Trident. is one further point I want to make about the level of settlement that has been achieved. As a result of that, my party—I know that the Liberal Democrats will have to do this—may well have I am genuinely worried about the decision the to consider whether or not we maintain our position on Government took on the joint strike fighter. The Prime Trident. We set the position in 2006 and we held to it. Minister’s announcement on the strategic defence review We did not try, as the Liberal Democrats did, some revealed that we have not only not funded the carriers, short-term political fix to pretend that we had another but we have bought the wrong aircraft. The Government way. But if no decision is to be taken for another five have, effectively, done away with our short take-off and years and if the cost of a like-for-like replacement of vertical landing capability not for 10 years because of Trident will fall wholly and solely on the defence budget, the early demise of the Harrier, but for ever. We will at the cost of other military capability, we will have to therefore end up with the JSF and the Typhoons. They think seriously about whether there is another way. We will be two separate fleets, and small fleets too, because will also have to use the time, the expertise that exists in there will not be the money to expand either of them. think-tanks and some of the information that will come We will be faced with the running costs of those two from the armed forces themselves, now that the pressure separate fleets as well, when they have fundamentally is on and they are paying for the deterrent in alternative the same capability. capability, to see whether there is some other way of I know that the JSF has stealth whereas the Typhoon maintaining Britain’s deterrent without the huge cost does not, but the Typhoon is a pretty impressive beast, that will come at the expense of the rest of our armed and we are going to wind up paying for two separate forces. 1091 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1092 Review Review Dr Fox: If, as the previous Government said in their the leadership of his party. [Interruption.] I have ruined own study, the current Trident replacement was the his chances now. I hope that, contrary to his own most efficient and cost-effective way of defending Britain wishes, he will be in that position for rather longer than against a unique existential threat, and if the reason for his predecessor was, because we should not have too having the deterrent in 2006, as set out in the previous many changes of position in these very important places. Government’s White Paper, was that we could not predict The first and most important thing that the Ministry the threats in the next 50 years, what has changed since of Defence did was to start a strategic defence and the election? security review, so the first and most important thing that the Select Committee on Defence did was to begin Mr Ainsworth: The answer is a treaty that the right an interim report on that review. After we have done hon. Gentleman has just signed with France; technological more work on our current inquiry into Afghanistan, we capability going forward; another five years; and a need will be resuming our inquiry into that review. We have to analyse the cost-benefit as against the other defence not yet done that, so what follows are my own views, benefit that will be lost. It is all very well for the Foreign rather than those of the Committee. Secretary to say there will be no strategic shrinkage, but the Government have embarked on a fairly substantial The 1997-98 review took place in a benign economic degeneration of the military capability in this country climate, whereas this year’s review happened against that underpins our strategic position in the world. It bank meltdown and the simply dreadful economic may well be that Trident remains the most effective consequences. That is why the Government decided option and that a continuous at-sea deterrent is still that the defence and security review had to coincide essential, but with another five years we will have to with the comprehensive spending review. As a result, it examine that. Other people will examine it and if we do became primarily a spending review and, secondly, a not, we will be seen to be putting our heads in the sand defence and security review. Is that a bad thing? It is and not prepared to undertake a proper analysis of the absolutely essential to get the country’s economy right. choices that we face. What won the second world war was the United States’ economy, and the same applies to the cold war. The I have one further point to make, and it relates to greatest weapon that a country can have for its defence force generation. The Secretary of State will know that is a strong economy, and any businessman knows that his personnel costs are rising every bit as much as his the key to having a sound business is keeping one’s costs equipment costs. The equipment costs catch the headlines, under control. If the Government had done nothing, and people talk about them and the press get excited instead of paying £43 billion a year in debt interest about them, but the personnel costs are rising every bit alone, by the end of the Parliament we would have been as fast. The Commandant General of the Royal Marines paying nearer £50 billion a year. As the former Chief addressed a meeting in the House of Commons just a Secretary, the right hon. Member for Birmingham, week or so ago, when he was able to say that the Royal Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), said, there is no money left. Marines could generate deployable capability more cheaply than the infantry. If he can stand on his feet while he The Defence Committee recognised all that, but we says that, something needs to be examined in the way also wanted to look at the process of the review and we the Army force- generates. The Royal Marines’ training concluded that it was, pretty much, rubbish. This review is much longer and is therefore a lot more expensive. In took five months, whereas the highly regarded 1997-98 addition, the Royal Marines’ capability is arguably review took 13 months. The haste of this review meant considerably higher, so if it is cheaper as well, something that an opportunity to consult the wider public, defence is wrong and this needs to be examined. academics, the defence industry and Parliament was missed. One important job that the Secretary of State needs to do, and one that I started to get into, is to deal with Nicholas Soames: I know my right hon. Friend’s how the Army force-generates, although he will be views on this matter, but does he accept that the review hugely resisted if he does so. If he is going to keep that was the first stage of a process that will require a great minimum ongoing deployable capability force of 6,000—or deal more work? Both the Prime Minister and the whatever he said is the figure he is trying to maintain—he Secretary of State for Defence have made that point. It is going to need a 90,000-strong Army, so that corner is merely the architecture behind the transformation of needs considerable examination. I urge him to do this defence that will take place, so an ongoing defence job, because it is necessary if we are going to get value review will be needed all the time; indeed, there is to be for money and motivate the very fine people who make one every five years. up our armed forces. Mr Arbuthnot: I accept what my hon. Friend says and 2.16 pm I listened with great admiration to his earlier comments. Mr James Arbuthnot (North East Hampshire) (Con): There is a lot of work to be done, as the Secretary of So far, this has been the best informed and best defence State has made plain, and I hope that my hon. Friend debate I have attended in this House. As the right hon. will play as valuable a part in it as he played before the Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth) knows, election. I had a very high opinion of his tenure of office as My greatest concern about defence is that the British, Secretary of State for Defence, and it is a pleasure to and perhaps the European, public believe that defence follow him. He spoke with his habitual integrity and is a job done and that the end of the cold war meant the persuasiveness. I also wish to welcome the shadow end of the need to spend serious amounts of money on Secretary of State for Defence to his position. As he defending our interests. They think we can rely on the knows, I also have a very high opinion of him, to the Americans to protect us, but they are wrong: the Americans extent that I was a bit surprised that he did not stand for will protect us only for as long as it is in their interests to 1093 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1094 Review Review do so. Until our constituents demand that we spend give reality to the treaties, so that the warm words that more on defence, no Chancellor of the Exchequer will they contain might be translated into tangible progress wish to do so, but that will not happen until the public in training, doctrine, equipment-sharing, acquisition are properly engaged in talking about defence or until and research with our good friends and allies, the they understand its importance and purpose. If one French. My reservation about the aircraft carriers, however, conducts a defence review behind closed doors, while has been wrongly depicted as some great showdown everyone is away on holiday and at a pace that would between myself and the Secretary of State. I shall startle Michael Schumacher, no such understanding explain my reservation. will arise. Let us hope that the next one comes across When the SDSR was announced last month, the better. Prime Minister said of the aircraft carriers: Given all my criticisms of the process, the result was “We will build both carriers, but hold one in extended far better than I expected. First, the Secretary of State readiness.”—[Official Report, 19 October 2010; Vol. 516, c. 801.] for Defence did an absolutely valiant job of fighting his corner and I doubt that he alienated the Prime Minister And we all know that “extended readiness” in Ministry or the Chancellor in the process—he was doing his job. of Defence-speak means exactly the reverse. But, in the Secondly, given that the Secretary of State started with press conference after the signing of the treaties this a defence posture and budget that were both utterly week, my right hon. Friend referred to our “carrier”. As incoherent and unsustainable there was a surprisingly I understand it, we have not yet decided to sell one of strategic feel to the outcome, the thrust of which seems the two carriers, and I hope that we do not. To talk of to be that we shall be gambling our security in the short our “carrier” might be to build an expectation that we term in exchange for its enhancement in the longer shall definitely mothball and almost certainly sell the term. That is preferable to the reverse, provided that we other one. It is pre-empting a discussion that needs to always have at the front of our minds the need not to take place much later, when we can see the economic fail in Afghanistan. circumstances of this country and, more importantly, the threats against us. Thirdly, despite the tightness of the settlement, there was a recognition of the changing and unpredictable Two carriers would be a good idea, and no carriers nature of the threats we face. There was extra money for would be a fairly good idea, but one carrier? Surely not. cyber-security and a recognition by the Secretary of Every time it went into refit would we not prove to the State personally regarding the threat from electromagnetic Treasury that we were able to struggle on without it? pulses. I expect also that there will be extra money for Furthermore, are we really yet close enough to the space security. Those are some of the new threats. French position that we can utterly rely on being allowed to use theirs? The answer is no, not yet. Our deployment Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I think that is superb. to Iraq took place in the last decade. I do not say that The real problem that having smaller armed forces will we never will be close enough to the French, because I bring is an absolute requirement to get our intelligence hope and expect that at some stage in the reasonably tip-top. We have been utterly surprised so many times in near future we shall, but it will come about only after a history. We have to make our intelligence much better, decent length of time operating alongside them, and so that we reduce the chance of being surprised again. after the treaties have been given detail, teeth and For example, why do we have so many intelligence funding, none of which has yet happened. agencies? I would bet my bottom dollar that we will be How about another idea? How about deciding between surprised again, but we have to reduce the risks as much the two of our countries that the French will contribute as we can. That is as much a part of the review as to the cost of the second carrier and, in return, have the anything else; indeed, it is probably one of the most right to use it when their carrier is in refit? That would important factors. mean that the two countries had three operational Mr Arbuthnot: I agree. My hon. Friend talks about carriers between them, which should surely be acceptable. the number of intelligence agencies we have, but he Having said all that, let me repeat that the French might like to look at the United States, which has such a treaties are, in the words of “1066 and All That”, a plethora of intelligence agencies that it gives one a “Good Thing”. headache simply to look at a wiring diagram. Nevertheless, Of course, it is easy to mock the SDSR: “If only it he is quite right: some of the threats we face are had not been necessary to scrap the Ark Royal! If only unpredictable. We are useless at predicting where threats we could have kept on the Harriers! Perhaps we could will come from, or where we may need to be deployed, get by with some inflatable Harriers”—all that sort of and for that reason we have to be adaptable. jolly joking. However, the consequence of having to My overall view of the review is that it is 80% common find money is that the alternative is to salami-slice all sense, pragmatic and broadly agreed upon, and that is left and destroy the fundamental effectiveness of 20% controversial, risky and able to generate headlines our armed forces in the process. in the media. The success in pulling together the 80% that My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for is agreed upon should not be overshadowed by discussion Defence has had the courage to take some very difficult and argument over the 20% that is not, but that is what decisions. My guess is that in the decision between the sells newspapers. Tornadoes and the Harriers, the fact that the Tornadoes Let me give one example in relation to the French-UK have an air-to-ground strike capability was what saved treaties that were signed this week. I am in no doubt them; we might well need that capability sooner than that they are a good thing, and that we are moving in the Typhoon can provide it, and there must be questions the right direction. I have a reservation relating to the about why that has been delayed for so long. Why did aircraft carriers, but I repeat that the treaties are a good we need to scrap one or the other, the Harrier or thing. Actually, I believe that we should go further and Tornado? The cost of the logistics of keeping another 1095 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1096 Review Review [Mr Arbuthnot] Several hon. Members rose— type in the air is huge—billions of pounds; a billion Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. here and a billion there, and soon we are talking about Hon. Members will have noticed that no time limit has real money. yet been set in this debate. I ask the 14 Members who The noble Lord West described the decision to scrap still wish to participate to show some restraint and the Harrier as “bonkers”. That would be easier to consideration for those who will try to catch my eye accept if, when he was in a position to do something after they have spoken. We will do our best to ensure about the bonkers economics of the Ministry of Defence, that everybody who wants to speak can, but it will not he had tried to do something to put it right. Instead, he be possible at this rate unless there is some restraint. drove forward the carrier decision, which he must have known was unaffordable. 2.35 pm How did all this come about? First, as my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames) Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): I set out so convincingly and with such great knowledge welcome the opportunity to participate in today’s debate. in his speech, there is the awful system of perverse Following the precedent set by the hon. Member for incentives inside the Ministry of Defence. I congratulate Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames), I pay tribute to those the noble Lord Hutton on commissioning the Bernard who have paid the supreme sacrifice in our armed forces Gray report. Those perverse incentives did not begin and who laid down their lives so that today we can have under a Labour Government; they have been around this debate and enjoy the relative degree of freedom that for decades, and I must bear some part of the blame for we do. In particular, I am thinking of the soldiers who them myself. served in Northern Ireland over a number of decades, and those who lost their lives protecting the community Secondly, there is the disgraceful command from there. No. 10 that before the election there was to be no more money, but also no bad news about base closures or We had a debate yesterday in the House on the Saville programme cancellations. The former Secretary of State inquiry, and there was much criticism of the actions of for Defence did his valiant best to try to take some real, the Army in Londonderry in 1972—but that must not hard decisions, but he was thwarted at every step of the become the mark of the Army’s contribution to Northern way by the Prime Minister of the time and some of his Ireland and to the relative degree of peace that we enjoy Ministers. In the private words of one of his Ministers today. The Army did many valiant things in Northern at the time, the problems were to be chucked over the Ireland, and many people are alive today because of its fence, into the responsibility of the next Government. I contribution. I would also say that the Army has learned have been Chief Whip, and I am not often shocked. But much from its experience in Northern Ireland. I hope I was certainly shocked when that remark was reported that, whether in Afghanistan or in the other parts of the to me. globe where it serves, it can put that experience to I still have considerable concerns about the strategic good use. and defence review. I am very concerned about the gap It is a matter of concern that recently the head of in vital capability if the Nimrod aircraft go. Like my MI5 warned that the threat from dissident terrorist hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex, I am very groups in Northern Ireland is on the increase. We are concerned about the overall size of the fleet, which will discussing today the a strategic review not only of be tiny in future; the unquantifiable influence exerted defence but of security, and I want to highlight the by the Royal Navy when a smart ship sails into a foreign continuing threat, because not only is it posed in the port will be rarer and rarer. For the next 10 years, the cities, towns and villages of Northern Ireland but it has strategic defence and security review will rely heavily on the capacity to extend to other parts of the United our enemies giving us advance warning of an impending Kingdom. attack. The enemy have a vote in all this; let us hope Yesterday in the Belfast Telegraph there was an interesting that they are polite enough to do that. interview with some of the so-called leadership of a There will be other concerns. Service families watching new dissident group that described itself as Oglaigh na this debate will fear redundancies, uncertainties and hEireann, which is Irish for the army of Ireland. It is the upheaval, having given themselves and made such sacrifice latest version of the Irish Republican Army, and it for their country. The same will apply to civil servants, draws together disaffected elements from the Provisional who have also given outstanding service, and to the IRA, the Real IRA and the Continuity IRA. Significantly, defence industry, which has done so much to support among the new recruits are bomb makers who have our defence efforts. All this will have substantial effects developed a capacity to explode bombs in a way that is on whole communities—for example, in Scotland. We very dangerous. It concerns me that although, of course, must do our best to mitigate those effects. our focus at times is on our role in Afghanistan and on Whatever the concerns, one thing is absolutely clear. the threat from al-Qaeda and other militant groups, We have now had the defence review and we must now there remains here at home in the United Kingdom a make it work. In my view, there is only a limited amount potent threat from such groups. It is estimated that the to be achieved by blaming the Labour party for the new group has about 600 members, some of them new ghastly mess that it left us or the coalition for the hasty but many of them with experience of involvement in and secretive review that it has brought in to put it right. terrorism over a number of years. We now have a plan and we must scrutinise it, but we We should not underestimate that threat. I do not must leave defence on a stronger footing at the end of want to give the group a status that it does not deserve, the process than it is on now. We must make it work for but the reality is that the Police Service of Northern the good of the country. Ireland has been reduced from 14,000 officers at its 1097 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1098 Review Review peak during the troubles to the current level of just the Duke of Wellington, who is only one of many I 7,000, who alone have to deal with that terrorist threat, could mention. Montgomery, and others of Northern supported by the security services but without the support Irish extraction, have made major contributions to our of the Army. armed forces. We want to ensure that that tradition will continue and be respected. If I may be so bold as to Bob Stewart: I am worried by the right hon. Gentleman’s speak for absent Members from Scotland and Wales, comment that there might be 600 people in a new the regional contribution of Northern Ireland, Scotland terrorist organisation in Northern Ireland. That is a and Wales to our armed forces at all levels is to be significantly large terrorist group, particularly if substantial valued. That is true not just of the units that originate numbers are active. That worries me a great deal. Is he from those regions but of members of all units at every absolutely certain that it is anything like as large as that? level of our armed forces. They are members of the If it is, that is a big worry. British Army and proud of the British tradition as well as of their regional identity. I hope that those identities Mr Donaldson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his will be respected as the SDSR is taken forward. intervention, and for the contribution that he made I support the remarks of the hon. Member for Mid while serving in the Army in Northern Ireland. I know Sussex (Nicholas Soames) about the review of the reserves. that he experienced some terrible events that occurred I hope that the thrust of that review will be to strengthen during his time there. The figures that I quote come the role of the reserve forces within our armed forces. from the security services and from the Police Service of He made some valuable comments in support of that Northern Ireland; they are not something that politicians move, which would bring the UK into line with other have dreamed up for the purposes of scaremongering. I countries where the reserve forces play a greater role. do not share these remarks with the House to scaremonger, but merely to say that in the context of our strategic For the record, some 24,000 reservists have been review we must keep an eye on a growing internal threat mobilised on or in support of military operations since in the United Kingdom that may have consequences for 2003, which is quite a remarkable contribution. To the capacity of the PSNI to cope with it alone without make the greatest contribution to our armed forces, the the support at least of specialist assistance from our reserves need to be properly structured for future conflicts. armed forces. We still have that capacity based in Northern That will make the best use of their skills, experience Ireland, and it may be more needed than was envisaged and capabilities, while at the same time moving us when Operation Banner drew to an end just a few short towards a more efficient structure. I understand that as years ago. we are having this debate, some 929 reservist personnel are on current operational duties. We wish each of them At the end of Operation Banner—as the former well. Their contribution is valued, and we want it to be Defence Secretary, the right hon. Member for Coventry strengthened because they have skills and specialisms North East (Mr Ainsworth), will recall—commitments that can provide valuable input into what our armed were given at a political level that a significant garrison forces are doing. would be retained in Northern Ireland. It therefore The concept of conflict prevention, which is mentioned concerns me that there is talk of 19 Light Brigade, who in the national security documents that have been published, are headquartered in Thiepval barracks in Lisburn in is important in the context of the SDSR. If we are to my constituency, being transferred back to the mainland. have a smaller military capacity in future, we want to Similarly, there is talk of 2 Rifles, who are part of ensure, with our international partners, that the prospect 19 Light Brigade and based at Ballykinler in County of conflict developing is diminished as best it can be. In Down, and who recently served with distinction and recent years, in the light of our experience in Northern great loss in Afghanistan, being transferred back to the Ireland, I have had the honour of working with people mainland, with Ballykinler no longer being used as part in many parts of the globe who are facing conflict. We of the garrison establishment in Northern Ireland, although have sought to use the benefit of our experience to help its ranges and specialist training facilities would still be them avoid conflict or resolve it where it occurs. Just available to the Army. two weeks ago I spent some time in Cyprus talking to This causes concern to us in Northern Ireland, as we people from the north and south of the island about the very much value the presence of the Army in our part of situation there and the need for a political settlement. the United Kingdom. Although we still have 38 (Irish) We have worked with people from the Iraqi Parliament, Brigade headquartered at Thiepval barracks, the presence from Moldova, from Kosovo, from the Basque region of 19 Light Brigade has been important; they have done in Spain and so on. some valuable work with the local community. I would The UK has an important role to play in conflict be worried if there were a move to transfer the brigade prevention. Despite all that has happened in the past, it headquarters away from Lisburn back to the mainland. is still very much respected, and in many respects we can When the Prime Minister made his statement to the give a lead to the international community by working House on the SDSR, I sought an assurance from him with others to prevent conflict where possible. I received that the cuts in troop numbers would not result in a an invitation recently to attend an event here in Parliament reduction in the size of our front-line infantry units, on the situation that is developing in Burundi, and I and he gave that assurance. At the moment, 1 Royal have discussed other countries where there are early Irish and the Irish Guards are deployed in Afghanistan, warning signs of the risk of conflict. currently on operational duty in Helmand. We in Northern Ireland are very proud of our long Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): and historical tradition. It may not go back 800 years, The right hon. Gentleman makes a very important but it certainly goes back over many hundreds of years. point. Does he agree that the UK is playing a key role in There is a tradition of Northern Irish men and women bringing stability and infrastructure through the Friends and serving in our armed forces. Someone mentioned of Yemen group and the Democratic Friends of Pakistan? 1099 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1100 Review Review Mr Donaldson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his I want to repeat just one interesting point that he intervention, and he is absolutely right. I also support made—it is so good, I cannot resist the temptation. He what has been said about the BBC World Service, which said that when he left the employment of Anthony is another valuable contribution made by the UK. Eden many years ago, Eden gave him a framed copy of Addressing conflict issues is about much more than just the Locarno treaty. The treaty represented the high our military capacity; it is about what we can do to help point of the belief between the wars that peace was people who find themselves in conflict or potential assured. Of course, we all know that it was not. conflict situations, and the BBC World Service is an There was a disastrous tendency between the two important component in that. world wars to believe in what was called the 10-year The UK can make a valuable contribution to conflict rule, which assumed that there would be no war for prevention, and I hope that we will be able to draw on another 10 years. In the 1930s, Lord Hankey criticised our experiences around the globe, including in Northern the 10-year rule, to which we are apparently returning. Ireland. I hope that we will be able to draw on our He asked who could have foreseen in the spring of experience of conflict to make a contribution to conflict 1914 that the world would be convulsed by a world war prevention. within a couple of months. If we look back at history, it My colleagues and I welcome the publication of the is clear that any 10-year rule or academic scenario that SDSR. I am not one of those who criticises the fact it suggests that we do not need the aircraft carriers for contains a number of other reviews that need to be 10 years is extremely dangerous. I am therefore very taken forward. I support what the Defence Committee dubious of any confident statements on how the world Chairman, who I am privileged to serve under, said will look in five, seven, eight or 10 years’ time. about moving in haste. It was right that we took a little We are, after all, a maritime nation. I agree that for more time in the SDSR to look in more detail at reserve many periods in our history, the Army has been neglected, forces and other key elements, to have a more focused but never the Royal Navy. Throughout the 18th and review and to make proposals. I welcome this debate, 19th centuries and in the early part of the 20th century, and my colleagues and I will continue to make a it was considered essential as a maritime nation dependent contribution as the debate goes forward. entirely on trade—as we still are—to maintain a significant Royal Navy. I echo some of the comments that have been made on Royal Navy planning. We will be left with 2.51 pm just 19 serious major ships, and we are hugely dependent Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): The right on them. We will need to deploy large numbers of them hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) made to protect the aircraft carrier—or carriers—and we an important point about the potential threat in Northern should be extremely concerned about that situation. Ireland. He underlined much of what I will say, in that we simply cannot rely on events panning out in a certain Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): Is the hon. way. In Northern Ireland in the mid-1960s, for instance, Gentleman aware of the great worries in Asia? Japan we could never have foreseen that events would start has 4,000 islands, many of which are vulnerable, especially deteriorating very quickly in the late 1960s. to China. There are concerns elsewhere about the fact In a way, I feel that I am going full circle. Forty years that China, which has said it is interested only in ago, when I first got involved in politics, one of the territorial self-defence, is now building three aircraft things that propelled me into politics and away from the carriers, and fourth and fifth generation aircraft-based Royal Navy university cadetship that I had at the time attack vehicles, and looking for naval bases in the was the debate about the Royal Navy, the then Labour Indian ocean. Britain and Europe disarming themselves Government cutting the number of aircraft carriers and and leaving everything to the United States sends a very the resignation of the Navy Minister. In the early 1980s, worrying message in relation to possible future nationalist I started working with my hon. Friend the Member for adventurism in that part of the world. New Forest East (Dr Lewis), who, by the way, would have liked to have taken part in the debate but for Mr Leigh: I entirely agree with that. attending a funeral. He is one of our foremost thinkers Again, we should look to history. Had Spain declared on defence, and we set up the Coalition for Peace war on us in 1940, we probably would have lost Gibraltar through Security. and the second world war. It did not declare war because At the time, a fierce debate was raging about the it was deterred by the existence of the Royal Navy—Franco Royal Navy. Keith Speed resigned as Navy Minister knew that it would immediately take the Canary Islands. because he felt that the Navy was under threat. At the Of course, Spain is now a friend and a member of the time, it had 66 destroyers and frigates. Within a year of European Union, and there is no likelihood that the his resigning, the utterly unexpected happened—the Spanish will ever declare war on us or seek to take Falklands were invaded and we needed no fewer than Gibraltar by force. 23 frigates and destroyers to retake them. By the way, Incidentally, following directly on from that, Spain this very day, Cristina Kirchner, the President of Argentina, now has two carriers with Harriers, as does Italy; the has pledged an “eternal fight” for the Malvinas. It is USA has 11 carriers; and India, Thailand and Brazil extremely dangerous, therefore, to assume that we will each have one carrier with Harriers. With this review, see a particular scenario over the next 10 years. we have unilaterally destroyed our carrier capability for I very much admire my hon. Friend the Member for 10 years. That is unilateral disarmament, and I am Louth and Horncastle (Sir Peter Tapsell), who is the extremely concerned about it. Father of the House. He gave an important speech to I am also concerned about the decision on Nimrod. the 1922 committee last week. Such speeches are supposed There has been a lot of talk about the cost, but very to be private, and I will not, of course repeat it. However, little about how we will maintain that capability, although 1101 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1102 Review Review the Secretary of State referred to that today. I was under Some have said, “If a future Labour Government the impression that we needed Nimrod as an early-warning wanted to cancel Trident, they would cancel it anyway, surveillance system, particularly to protect our nuclear whether it had been through main gate or not”, but why submarines, and particularly as they are returning to have we not cancelled the carriers? It is because the base. Some assurances were given to us today. I know admirals were determined to force them through main that the Secretary of State cannot go into any great gate before the election, knowing that after it, there details because such matters are sensitive, but the House would be enormous political and financial pressure to is entitled to ask why Nimrod was developed for all cancel them. If, therefore, Trident has not gone through those years. Why is it suddenly considered necessary to main gate before the next general election, it will be cancel it just because of its cost? thrown immediately into the political mix and it will be much easier to cancel it. I have noticed that the president Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): I accept the of the Liberal Democrats, who has been quoted in the sensitivities regarding what we use Nimrod for, but does Evening Standard, has been crowing that they have the hon. Gentleman agree that if we take any capability achieved a major political victory in delaying Trident. out, we must either bin it altogether and not task it, or So as much as I love my coalition partners, we should replace it? be aware of what could happen in the future. My right hon. Friend the Member for North East Mr Leigh: Exactly. I know that parliamentary questions Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot) has done a wonderful job have been asked, but the House must tease out more as Chair of the Defence Committee—he is shaping up information on maintaining early-warning capability. I to be a superb Chair—in questioning the decision on know that this is not an exact historical comparison, the future shape of the carrier fleet. I am not a but if someone had said in 1938, “Oh, this radar programme Francosceptic; I am a huge Francophile. Both my parents that we are deploying on the south coast is terribly were brought up in France, I went to a French school, expensive. We’ve wasted enormous sums of money on it and I speak French, so I am all in favour of every kind and there are all sorts of pressures on our budget, so we of co-operation with the French— should get rid of it,” we simply would have lost the second world war. I know that that is not an exact Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): But? comparison, but we should always be aware of the lessons of history. In defence, whether we are talking Mr Leigh: But, indeed. Hon. Members and the public about Northern Ireland or piracy, we simply cannot are right to be wary about such co-operation. The rely on the same situation existing in eight or nine years public do not really understand—and why should they?—a as exists now. lot of these details about joint strike fighters, Typhoons and Tornadoes. However, they can visualise aircraft I am also extremely worried about the decision on carriers without aircraft, and they can visualise sharing Trident. The decision not to push through the main gate an aircraft carrier with the French, and they do not like on Trident before the next general election is very it—and they are wise not to like it. We all know what dangerous indeed, because I believe that it was taken for would have happened had we been sharing an aircraft fundamental political, not military, reasons, and because carrier with the French during the Falklands war or the of the possible result of the next general election. What Iraq war. We simply cannot foresee— happens if the Labour and Conservative parties are level pegging, and there is a bargaining situation, as we Mr MacShane rose— had this year? I am confident that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister would not be prepared to enter into Mr Leigh: Oh dear! I am sorry. Perhaps I should not a coalition with the Liberals if the price was getting rid have been saying this, because I have forced the right of Trident, but can we be so confident about the Labour hon. Gentleman to his feet. party? The former Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth), Mr MacShane: I want only to make the point that whom we all greatly admire for his time in office, made when the Falklands were invaded, the then US ambassador a significant intervention when he said, “Well, now that to the UN, Jeane Kirkpatrick, supported Argentina to Trident’s been put on the backburner, perhaps we should begin with, but the first call that Mrs Thatcher got that reconsider; perhaps there are cheaper options. It will be Saturday morning was from Francois Mitterand, pledging five years in advance.” So the political decision to delay support and revealing all the secrets of the Exocet and Trident is worrying and dangerous. the Super Etendard. There are many differences between I do not say that as someone who is fanatically in us and the French, but on the Falkland Islands, they favour of Trident. I managed to blot my copy book with were with us, and to begin with the United States were the Conservative parliamentary party as soon as I arrived not. That should be put on the record. in the House—I have succeeded in doing it again and again ever since—when I and my hon. Friend the then Mr Leigh: Fine, but we must remember, I am afraid, Member for Wells tabled an early-day motion questioning that it was a French Exocet that sank HMS Sheffield. I whether there were not cheaper alternatives to a ballistic do not doubt for a moment that it is a wonderful idea to missile system, and suggesting that we could consider have increased co-operation with the French on cruise missiles off nuclear-powered submarines. My procurement and to work together more closely, but on right hon. Friend the then Prime Minister was none too this basis it is an extremely dangerous decision. My pleased with both of us. So I have always been sceptical right hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire about maintaining ballistic missile systems in a post-cold was right. There is no way in this debate that we can war age, and more and more people like that will be change the decision on the Ark Royal, the Harriers or coming out of the woodwork the longer we delay main gate. Nimrod, and I do not think that I will still be in this 1103 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1104 Review Review [Mr Leigh] Some of the points made by the hon. Gentleman are telling. The only way to deal with the problems is not Chamber when the two aircraft carriers retire, because I with large toys and pieces of kit, but with good old- will be about 120. However, for the next 10 years, we fashioned police work and intelligence. There must a can together mount a campaign. Its nature must be correct mixture of capability, including people as well clear: that we would make ourselves ridiculous, as one as machinery. The cross-governmental aspect of the of the world’s greatest maritime nations, if we built the review was encouraging. In the Defence Committee greatest and most powerful ships we have ever constructed during the last Parliament, I said that we were in effect and then sold one of them to India, Brazil or elsewhere. already having a defence review, but in an ad hoc and As my right hon. Friend said, extended readiness is unguided way that was not very helpful or useful. It not good enough. Our commitment, as with Trident, should have been put into a proper structure much must be that at all times an aircraft carrier will be earlier. That is the missed opportunity because the available. That means that we must keep our two aircraft review does not cover the whole of the subject in the carriers and ensure that when one goes in for a refit, the title—strategic defence, including security. other is available. We remember how long the refit of There are many parts to the review. I echo some of Ark Royal took and its cost. The refits of the new class the points that have been made about Trident. As I said of aircraft carriers will take even longer and be even back in July, we cannot take Trident out; well, we could more costly. formally, descriptively and all of that, but in reality we cannot, so it was all nonsense. Whether that was said Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): The Deputy Speaker for political reasons to do with the coalition partners is said that many Members want to speak, and the hon. for history to show. There is probably a lot of power in Gentleman has been rabbiting on for about 15 minutes. those arguments, but the reality is that it was nonsense Can he please wrap it up so that others may get in? to try to proceed in that way. The other thing that disturbs me is that some parts of Mr Leigh: That intervention was extremely discourteous, the review have not been mentioned today. The lack of especially as Liberal Democrat Members have not attended clarity about a defence industrial strategy is hugely most of the debate, and I was coming to the end of my important. I know that there will be a Green Paper, remarks. apparently by the end of this year. It is now November the something-or-other, so I do not know what is meant Mr MacShane: Keep going. by the end of this year. I must tell the Minister that I hope we see the Green Paper before the recess comes; otherwise we will have no opportunity to consider it. Mr Leigh: No, I will not keep going, because others Apparently there will be a White Paper some time next want to speak, particularly my hon. Friend the Member year, and then something beyond that. What key capabilities for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt), who no doubt are we going to focus on? What direction are we giving has an important speech to make. to industry? Where is the strategy? Where is the plan? It We are entitled to speak up about our concerns for is not there. We have to form it, and it is to the benefit of the future of the Royal Navy, bearing in mind that we us all that we do so. are a maritime and trading nation, and we must continue the campaign for the future to ensure that we have a There is also the reform group—or whatever it is strong and viable Royal Navy that can protect this called—that has been set up to transform the Ministry nation, as it has done for centuries. of Defence. We had the reform acquisition strategy before the election. I wrote all this down so that I would not get it wrong, but at that time the Ministry of 3.7 pm Defence said, “Well, don’t worry about it, because we’re transforming ourselves. We have the PACE programme”— Mr Dai Havard (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab): performance, agility, confidence and efficiency—“the The word “strategic” is in the title of the document, but defence acquisition ‘Terms of business agreement’ process, we have heard several examples of how it is not a clearly the equipment and support plan, the acquisition operating formed strategy at the moment. At the end of his framework, and the capability delivery practitioners thoughtful speech, the Chairman of the Select Committee, guide.” We were told that the MOD had lots of other the right hon. Member for North East Hampshire things, doubtless all recommended by a legion of (Mr Arbuthnot), explained where we are now and said consultants of various sorts—not medical consultants, we needed to form a clear, strategic view of where we but business consultants—about internal process. That will be in future, and that is a job that we must all do. methodology will clearly be part of the MOD’s review. The debate has been a little deficient—this is A number of reviews have been mentioned in other understandable because we are considering the matter respect. The points that have been made today about from the point of view of defence—for the reason that force generation are important. I attended part of the the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) presentation by the Marines about how they do things. gave. The review is supposed to be about defence and They give clear costings, and they were not shy about security—that is what the annunciator screens say—but saying what things cost them or how much time they the security part is clearly deficient. The document on took. The hon. Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas the national strategy from the National Security Council Soames) made an excellent contribution to the debate is all very well as far as it goes, but it is not clear to me about what needs to happen with MOD processes. where our foreign policy is in this debate; nor do I think However, as all that unfolds and we do the work, my it is clear where the home services stand in terms of the concern is where we are in that process. Who even is this Home Office, policing and so on. “we”? What I have seen so far is a process that went 1105 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1106 Review Review forward over the summer, but which did not really Friend’s long membership of the Defence Committee involve the public or Parliament, as the right hon. and his close interest in defence matters, does he recollect Member for North East Hampshire said. In fact, there whether the French have ever bought anything that was a very narrow discussion among a narrow group of does not have a main French component to it? people, and it was therefore not as well informed as it should have been. Mr Havard: I may be old, but no—that is the short Scrutiny and involvement in the process are important, answer, and it might go back longer than me. The as is transparency. There was a review of Trident. French have a particular view about their sovereign Apparently something came out of the end of that capability, so my hon. Friend raises an interesting issue. review, but I have no real idea what process was used or The Defence Committee was asked to consider the what the results were. We need to understand better trade treaty with the United States, and did some pre-work what is going to happen in that process if we are to end before it was agreed. The Americans have only just up with a better strategic review, which can serve as the agreed to the treaty—it took them three years to ratify overarching architecture, as the hon. Member for Mid it. Included in it was important stuff related to technology Sussex put it. The review may well be the framework for transfer and the joint strike fighter. Yes, some other that debate, but it is not the debate itself, nor is it the nations take a very parochial view: they claim to be free end product, and to that degree it is deficient. traders, but they often behave in a very—how can I put this? —protectionist fashion. That balance is always I shall finish now, because I know that the hon. there. What comes out of it, I do not know. It will be Member for Colchester (Bob Russell), who is carrying interesting to find out what lies behind some of the the entire weight of the Liberal party today, needs to declarations and whether it will change that form of speak. acquisition. Mr Kevan Jones: He makes the same speech every time. I have a few small questions for the Minister. One is about helicopters and search and rescue. This may be a small aspect of defence, but it is very important, particularly Mr Havard: Yes, but he is the only one here to in Wales, because we have to spend a lot of time calling make it. people from Culdrose to come and rescue mostly English There are issues to do with particular aspects of the people off Welsh hills. In that sense, people in England review. I have concerns, partly because my local economy have an interest in what happens in Wales as much as is affected, but the decision on St Athan and the training Welsh people do. It gives rise to a question about there is worrying. It is particularly worrying because, as particular capabilities within the review. This service is the Chancellor and others have said, one way or another under review and there are lots of individual programmes we have to find different ways of paying. We are talking on which we need more clarity. about a private finance initiative. I have to say that I am Some of the decisions are about timing. It is all very not the greatest supporter of private finance initiatives well saying we will have a defence review every five in general, but what has happened prompts the question: years. Let me tell Government Members that they will why, having gone through a due diligence process pretty have an iteration in 2012 and another in 2014—whether recently, was the facility not thought to be good enough? they like it or not. That is because there will be political It has now been decided that what had been going to change in Afghanistan, and there is already political happen, but what is going to happen? All we have now change going on in America. They should not try to is a vague declaration that something else will happen. pretend that this will work on some prescribed artificial The big question is about the training. It is about the timetable that might seem desirable today, because it people, and it is important that this aspect should not will not. Events, dear boy, events—and some of those be lost in the review, with all the discussions about large events are largely predictable because of watersheds in pieces of equipment. the political timetable set for us elsewhere as well as I could say a few words about the carriers, which we here. I hope that whatever the review going forward will discussed on a number of occasions in the Defence be—in all its different component parts—it will be Committee during the last Parliament. At one point, open. I hope that Parliament will be directly involved in there was talk about having three carriers—my hon. the process. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) would like to hear this, but he is not in his place—but 3.19 pm that was on the basis of having two British carriers, with the French perhaps buying one off us and our making it Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): for them with their Slingshot deck on it. All these Let me first declare my interest, which is set out in the discussions were going on, so this is not an entirely new Register of Members’ Financial Interests. argument, although it is new in some respects. It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for I thought a remark in yesterday’s edition of the Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr Havard), and I am Financial Times was prescient. The Financial Times really pleased that he has rejoined the Defence Select pointed out that if the Ministry of Defence gains the Committee, which, under the chairmanship of my right savings it declares it is going to get, it would be a good hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire thing if they went back to the MOD, and did not just (Mr Arbuthnot), has an extremely impressive membership. get lost in the coffers. If there is a dividend, the MOD I know that the Committee will do a great job in should have it, not the Treasury. holding the Government to account, which is indeed its function. Mr Jones: One issue raised by the treaty is whether The first duty of the state is to defend national markets, including the French defence market, would security and the national interest. Even in today’s defence be opened up to British companies. Given my hon. debate, we have to admit that the chief threat to this 1107 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1108 Review Review [Dr Andrew Murrison] pleasure of serving in Cyprus will attest to its importance, and to the totemic significance of any east-of-Nicosia country is not military at all, but economic. It is, of moment that the Defence Secretary may have been course, against that backdrop that we have had the forced at least to contemplate. strategic defence and security review. Inevitably, much has been said today about bombs I might be accused of being sycophantic, but I will and bullets, but I must confess that my interest is now, say this nevertheless. I think that my right hon. Friend and always been, in our military software, by which I the Secretary of State has done a first-rate job in mean the men and women of our armed forces. Tempting marrying our need to ensure that the country returns to though it is for policy makers to become obsessed with an even keel economically with the ongoing need to equipment, not least when there are jobs and constituency ensure that we prepare for all foreseeable threats to the interests to be considered, we must always bear in mind country, particularly in a world that is ever-changing. the greatest single factor: the bloke with the gun or, Much has been said about aircraft carriers, which are increasingly, the metal detector on the front line. I think close to my heart. I spent 18 years in the Navy, and that the SDSR has done that. developed a healthy respect for them during that time. Importantly, the White Paper makes it clear that an During most of my career, the Harrier jump jet took off armed forces covenant will be formalised, and I imagine and landed on aircraft carriers. It must be said that they that that codification will feature prominently in the were rather short. I think we should bear in mind that, Armed Forces Bill. The military covenant made its while STOVL—short take-off and vertical landing—has debut in April 2000 in a rather dusty Army publication, many virtues, its chief virtue is as an expedient for “Army Doctrine Publication Volume 5”—a snappy title! countries that have short aircraft carriers. I listened We can, however, find examples of such a covenant with interest to the remarks of the former Secretary of going back to ancient Greece. It was certainly considered State for Defence, the right hon. Member for Coventry in Roman Britain too, with the distribution of bits of North East (Mr Ainsworth), and noted his concern that land to those who had served in the Roman army, and it we should be able to land on small plots of land. continued to the reign of Elizabeth I, who formally Nevertheless, the chief virtue of the aircraft carriers is codified a system of pensions for those who had been connected with the fact that for several years—indeed, disabled in action. Ironically, it rather fell apart during for decades—we had to make do with carriers that were Cromwell’s military Protectorate, but it has been an smaller and more economical than we might have liked. unspoken theme of service throughout our history. We are now to have two impressive aircraft carriers, which will be larger than the Charles de Gaulle. Their Whether or not the author of the military covenant size will approach that of some of the largest ships in knew it, it was at the extreme end of the spectrum of the American fleet that we admire so much. It is absolutely psychological contracts identified by Harry Levinson in right for us to have craft that are fitted out to accommodate 1962, following his study of the Midlands Utilities the naval forces of our two greatest allies, the United Company in the American midwest. The point about States and France, and I welcome the fitting of the “cats such contracts is that they are unspoken and unwritten. and traps”, which will provide us with that interoperability. In an age of lawyers, that has a certain appeal. We are now considering codifying the military covenant and It strikes me as bizarre that the previous Government putting it in writing so that people will be able to rely on should have ignored the obvious desire and need for it as of right, and potentially, of course, in a court aircraft from those two nations to use our aircraft of law. carriers, whether or not there is a formal arrangement with France to share one of them, and I am exceptionally If we are rather reluctant to go down that route, we pleased that we will now be able to do that. I congratulate must consider the developments of the early 1990s. my right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary on the Many of us will recall NMS—the new management important work he has done, both in opposition and in strategy—and the new managerialism introduced into government, to strengthen the links with France. It is the Ministry of Defence, and the impact that had on the quite wrong to say that that has happened since May. relationship between leaders and led. Commanding officers As one who was on the Defence Front Bench until morphed into budget holders and military units into recently, I know that it was a recurring theme throughout cost centres. The relationship between commanding my three years there. We have a great deal in common officers and those they commanded was subtly changed. with our neighbour, and it is not just about our willingness In that context, it is right and proper that we should to pay for a defence umbrella under which others in look at articulating the psychological contract of the Europe are content to shelter. Both countries, while military covenant in statute. I look forward to seeing slipping down the league table of global significance as the form in which it is introduced in the forthcoming others rise, have residual interests overseas, although armed forces Bill. France, of course, has rather more than the United The insurgents in Afghanistan have proved capable Kingdom. of being flexible in their tactics. The Taliban lost, as I congratulate the Government on resisting the they were bound to, in the head-to-head early conflict temptation to close some of our remaining overseas in Helmand and Kandahar. They then shifted to the use assets. In particular, our removal from the sovereign of IEDs, and that proved very successful, as all of us base areas in Cyprus would have been most unwise, will know who have spent time in Birmingham and at given the strategic situation. Akrotiri and Dhekelia Headley Court and who represent constituencies with a offer a combination of barracks, training areas, an military element. The Taliban’s tactics are now changing airfield and a seaport that is peerless, not to mention once again. They are developing their own brand of other assets in the Troodos mountains that are beyond Sharpe’s Rifles, chosen men who are rather less appealing the scope of the debate. Those of us who have had the even than the men of the South Essex. 1109 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1110 Review Review It is worth bearing in mind the threat that still exists, information service, by which we will inform veterans, and is likely to continue to exist, from IEDs. They are a after they have left, of the services available to them, mortal threat to our men and women and a bitter fact and not simply cut them free and let them go, as we have of life for the civilian population. I know that the done in the past. Government have taken a real interest in this and that the Prime Minister has taken the trouble to familiarise Mr Havard: I know of the hon. Gentleman’s particular himself with the workings of the Vallon metal detector interest in medical services and mental health. He will that is currently used by our troops. be aware that the British Medical Association has made I am pleased to note that a contract has now been let suggestions on improving general practitioners’ to improve the collective counter-IED training of our understanding about the medical treatment of those troops, especially as it has been let to a firm in my who have served. Does he have a view about that? constituency. We have a digital record of aptitude and Dr Murrison: Yes, I do. I commend the BMA for its performance in training, and it has been shown to be efforts, as I do the Royal College of General Practitioners, extremely variable. Will the Minister ensure that the which has recently put out a leaflet trying to apprise value of that highly granular information is exploited GPs of the problems that may be faced by patients who further so as to allow us to assess post-deployment how have served in the military. That is not an easy task. effective the new training has been, and perhaps refine it Most GPs are faced daily with a whole pile of stuff and further? Will the Minister also say what further personal will jettison most of it, so getting the message across to protective equipment our troops are to have to reduce them is extremely difficult, given that a relatively small the toll taken by IEDs? number of their patients will have served and may have For servicemen with children there are few issues of a problem as a result of their service. That is not to say greater concern than education, and that is rightly cited that we must not do what we can to raise the prominence in the White Paper. The Department for Education has of this issue. been consulting on a pupil premium for service children. In conclusion, may I say how much I welcome the There is no doubt that schools with substantial numbers emphasis in the White Paper on the military covenant? of service children are at a distinct disadvantage because It is essential that we try to codify it in some way, and I of the extra costs involved in their education. I would look forward to it becoming a far more prominent part cite the New Close primary school and the Avenue of the way in which we think about the service community school in Warminster as prime examples of that. If we and veterans in the future. are serious about the concept of “no disadvantage” from military service, we must ensure that the extra 3.33 pm costs relating to service children are properly reflected in the funding formula. Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): As we approach I have an abiding interest in military health care, so I the defence and security review and discuss how we are am very pleased to see a substantial reflection in the going to ensure our future defence and security, one White Paper of the importance of doing more. I am thing that we must be very conscious of is the fact that particularly keen to see improvements in military mental this is not just the responsibility of our military. My health care, and I very much welcome the fact that that father was in the merchant navy in the last war and was is cited specifically in the White Paper. However, it is on a merchant vessel going to Russia. His ship was sunk important that we bear in mind that it is not just about by German submarines and he then spent considerable combat stress and post-traumatic stress disorder, and time in Russia, suffering extreme privations as a result that we need to look more widely at mental health of that sinking. That might be one reason why I am issues, including those relating to service families and interested in maritime security. issues such as alcoholism and the overuse of alcohol, Another reason might be my coastal constituency, depression and so on. and the fact that my friends and neighbours are involved It is important that we are far more proactive in in search and rescue operations on a daily basis. Seeing dealing with combat stress, because most people, including how the mood of the sea changes is part of our daily the general public, would accept that of all those conditions life. I do not have any military bases in my constituency, the ones that the military has a direct hand in causing but there are hopes that it will play a key part in the need to be addressed as a priority. Although, numerically, future development of RAF St Athan and the joint the incidence of PTSD—combat stress—might not be training college that was to be established there. My vast in the great scheme of things, men and women local authority spent a considerable amount of money experience it by virtue of their exposure on the front preparing for that, and still hopes that something positive line, so if we are serious about the military covenant we will come of it. As a member of the Defence Committee, must do our utmost to reduce the chances of it occurring I am aware of the central strategic role of the Royal Air in the first place and to manage it when it does. The key Force in intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition to that is being proactive and ensuring that we look for and reconnaissance capability. My colleague on the people with problems before they wait, often for many Committee, the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob years, before seeking out medical attention. It is important Stewart), has mentioned the importance of intelligence to go where young men and women are if we want to in any future war, and the RAF and ISTAR are certainly find out whether they are having problems and to critical to that. signpost services where they are available—and that I want to focus on the unbelievable, short-sighted and means going online. downright dangerous decision to cut the Nimrod aircraft. I very much welcome the extra mental health I cannot believe that the decision came from the Ministry professionals whom the Government have announced of Defence: it must have been a Treasury-led decision, they will recruit to improve mental health care for this because only a bean counter could have made it. I community. I also welcome the prospect of a veterans’ honestly cannot see why else it would have been made. 1111 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1112 Review Review [Mrs Madeleine Moon] vital national infrastructure. Our nuclear power stations and our North sea oil rigs would have all been defended Last Sunday I was at Rest bay in my constituency, thanks to the Nimrod. where people had come from across south Wales, as well We have talked about working closely with our allies as from north Somerset and north Devon, because of to ensure that we have access to the equipment, training the proposed loss of the search and rescue capability at and personnel that we need as a necessary part of our Chivenor, which rescues people across those areas. We defence, but we cannot rely on our allies to pick up on do not know what is happening in that regard and I the capabilities that we will lose by not bringing the urge that we should consider seriously our search and Nimrod aircraft into service. The Nimrod MRA4 has rescue capability, particularly on our coasts and for our far greater capabilities than the aircraft that our allies mountains. That Sunday gathering was attended by either use now or have planned for the near future. It experts in the field. I spoke to Phil Missen from the has world-leading anti-submarine warfare technology—a Royal National Lifeboat Institution and Ian Coles from particular strength in the UK. We have that strength the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, both of whom because of our history, and because submarines carry a expressed concern about Nimrod being cut. vital part of our national security. So there we are: Back in my office, when I was preparing this speech, I submarines carry the most vital part of our national had my own little personal cyber-attack. As I was security, and we are going to scrap the means of protecting typing away, I received an email in my inbox from them. Michael Hiscocks in my constituency. It said: Mr Havard: Is my hon. Friend aware of the press “With the cancellation of the Nimrod, how does the RAF intend to conduct long range surveillance of the sea, not only reports that Ministers are trying to sell on the Nimrod’s against the submarine and surface threat, but also long range capability to someone else? Does she have any comments search and rescue that the Nimrods and her crews so ably carried to make about that prospect? out over the years?” Mrs Moon: It worries me that our defence capability That one paragraph written by a member of the public is up for sale. We are selling off some of our defence in an email to a member of the Defence Committee, industry’s crown jewels, and selling on to potential who happens to be their constituency MP, asks the enemies—we do not know where they will be—those major question that must be dealt with in today’s debate. capabilities at a time when we are in desperate need. I In his leaked letter to the Prime Minister, the Secretary totally object to that, because anti-submarine warfare is of State for Defence made it clear that the primary not a relic of the cold war. If we are to protect our objective of the strategic defence and security review is aircraft carriers when they are deployed in high-risk to set direction, and that decisions should be based on areas, who will provide the air cover? We recently lost the risks and threats to the security of our country now track of a Russian submarine in the Atlantic for three and in future. He made it clear that the review should weeks. We cannot rely on allies who are comparatively not merely be a cost-cutting exercise, and said that the poorly resourced, or hope that they will buy the Nimrods, primary duty of the Government and the SDSR was save us the money and provide us with the security. not to undermine the UK’s ability to defend itself. He The Nimrod’s civil use must be emphasised, too. Let also said—I am sorry that he is not here now—that the us look at the history of its search and rescue capability. Government’s words would be “thrown back” at them. When the Fastnet yacht race was hit by storms in 1979, Well, I am going to throw some words back at him and when the Alexander Kielland oil rig overturned in today for getting things wrong. I do so despite the huge the North sea, Nimrods provided vital cover. They also respect I have for him, as he has done an excellent job so did so during the Piper Alpha disaster and, just recently, far. However, we in the House must support him in for the Athena fishing vessel, which needed the Nimrod’s getting the decision about the Nimrod MRA4 changed. capability because Sea King helicopters could spend The Nimrod MRA4 has several key functions. It only 20 minutes hovering above the vessel. We must forms part of military operations, is an advanced remember that we have an international obligation to reconnaissance tool, helps to ensure the safety of civil provide long-range search and rescue missions. We will national infrastructure, assists in maritime search and not be able to adhere to the international convention on rescue operations, and assists in the defence of our maritime search and rescue, which we signed in 1979, if dependent territories. The Secretary of State also said: we cancel the new Nimrod. “Deletion of the Nimrod MR4 will limit our ability to deploy Let us also remember the use of maritime surveillance maritime forces rapidly into high-threat areas, increase the risk to capabilities against drug smuggling, human trafficking the Deterrent, compromise maritime CT (counter terrorism), and piracy. The new maritime patrol aircraft, of which remove long range search and rescue, and delete one element of the Nimrod was the mainstay, had the capacity to our Falklands reinforcement plan.” counter drug-running operations in the Caribbean, fight So, we all agree: the cancellation of the Nimrod has left pirate activity in the gulf of Arabia and form a crucial the UK with a grave gap in its maritime patrol capability. part of maritime counter-terrorism operations. As a maritime nation—and we do remain a maritime It has been a long time since the Conservative nation—monitoring and defending our sea is a critical Government needed to reinforce the Falkland Islands. I element in the maintenance of our security. The Nimrod’s pay particular tribute to the speech made by the hon. maritime reconnaissance capability was to have protected Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh), who recognised our nuclear deterrent, our nation’s ultimate defence, the vulnerability of the Falkland Islands, particularly and supported royal naval vessels and submarines in given the growing demand for energy. The UK’s claim our waters and way beyond. The Nimrods were to have to energy resources in the south Atlantic, which are fulfilled a hugely important civil role, providing 24/7 search being explored as we speak, must be safeguarded. The and rescue services for seafarers, as well as defending Nimrod provides the only capability that could deploy 1113 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1114 Review Review to the Falklands within 48 hours. It can provide early The decision not to cancel the renewal of the Trident indicators and warnings for forces that follow. The nuclear deterrent has demonstrated a belief in the need Royal Navy would take three weeks to deploy there. for us to maintain a constant and secure independent That is 48 hours for a Nimrod, but three weeks for the nuclear deterrent, yet we cannot provide the reconnaissance Royal Navy. to ensure the safety of those submarines and of our The Nimrod MRA4 has not been cleared for overland nuclear deterrent. operations, but it does have a tremendously sophisticated We are going to get rid of the Queen Elizabeth class suite of new sensors that would make a good surveillance aircraft carriers as well, it seems, and we are cancelling and support asset for land operations. I fail to see why the aircraft that would defend the carriers. It does not our security and defence capability has been reduced by make sense. We have talked about asymmetrical warfare the removal of this asset. It has the capacity to provide and the threat to our nation from individuals and maritime eyes and ears at long range—up to 4,000 miles. groups rather than nation states, yet we are going to Where else do we have a 4,000-mile capability for reduce our capability to protect national infrastructure intelligence? It can move very rapidly—within two hours— and essential offshore assets, particularly our energy and with persistence it can fly for 12 hours without capabilities. refuelling. No other asset has that capability. The Secretary of State concluded his letter to the Prime Minister by saying: Dr Murrison: The hon. Lady is making a compelling “Cuts, there will have to be. Coherence, we cannot do without”. case, but will she say what elements of the defence programme she would scratch, given our unfunded Not bringing the Nimrod into service does not represent liabilities, to make good the spending commitment that a coherent approach to the defence of our country. I she is apparently making? hope that the Treasury will listen and that the Ministry of Defence will yet again argue for this piece of equipment Mrs Moon: That is not a matter for me. As a member so vital for our defence and security. of the Defence Committee, my objective is to look at what the Government propose and ask whether they are Several hon. Members rose— providing the best defence and security for the UK. Removing this platform is not in the best interests of Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. A number Britain’s defence and security. I defy any Member to of colleagues would still like to speak in this important contradict me—and the Secretary of State for Defence, debate, so in order to facilitate the wishes of all Members who said exactly that in his letter to the Prime Minister. I am introducing a 10-minute limit on speeches. I acknowledge that the procurement history of the Nimrod MRA4 has been difficult. But past problems 3.51 pm bear no relation to the decision not to bring it to service. Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): The Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the hon. I commend the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) Member for Mid Worcestershire (Peter Luff), made it on alighting on a vital capability. There was one thing clear that the decision to cancel the project was based that she did not say about it: if it were deployed, it on the future support costs of the aircraft—not the past would be the envy of the Americans, such is the spend, but the future costs. Considering what we have sophistication of the capability. It is also a valued asset spent on research and development, the capability that of many of our European NATO allies and I hope that we have put in place and the versatility of the aircraft, even now, at this eleventh hour, there might be ways to saving the modest future running costs is short-sighted. explore how we can share the burden of the capability If we really cannot find the pocket money that we so that it can be retained. I fear that that underlines how need for those running costs, why do we not at least the defence review was done in a rush and that, whatever consider mothballing rather than selling off? Let us the thinking in advance, it ended in the inevitable collision mothball, so that when the Treasury wakes up to the between the Ministry of Defence and the Treasury enormous capabilities that we would have, it can bring which, as the letter from my right hon. Friend the the Nimrod back into operational service. In the meantime, Secretary of State to the Prime Minister advertised, we must make sure that we do not lose the skills of the threatened to be even more destructive than it was. Nimrod aviators; there must be ongoing training and I would further underline, as the Secretary of State skills development to make sure that the capability is admitted, that the review has been distorted by our retained. activities and the burden of operations in Afghanistan. The Under-Secretary also said that the Ministry of To that extent, the review is raiding future capability to Defence had sustain current operations, which is an unstrategic approach. “sought to mitigate the gap in capability” I fully accept—I think we have to understand the produced by the early retirement of the Nimrod MR2, predicament faced by those on the Treasury Bench—that through the use of a range of other assets: the Government have inherited a very difficult situation “Type 23 Frigates, Merlin Anti Submarine Warfare helicopters and not just in the Ministry of Defence. Of course the and Hercules C-130 aircraft, and by relying, where appropriate, national deficit has to be addressed, but there is a on assistance from allies and partners.”—[Official Report, 28 October deeper malaise at the heart of the dysfunctional relationship 2010; Vol. 517, c. 451W.] between the Ministry of Defence and the rest of This was meant to be a short-term solution while the Government and, indeed, in dysfunctional relationships new Nimrods were developed, and we now need to at the MOD. know what longer-term plan will be put in place. How As shadow Secretary of State for two years and a long are we going to rely on a patchwork of aircraft to member for four years of the Select Committee on fill the gap left by the Nimrod? Defence, I watched with increasing perplexity post-9/11 1115 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1116 Review Review [Mr Bernard Jenkin] who are tasked with doing or trained to do such work. Some people say, “Strategists are not trained, they are our first Afghan deployment, the invasion of Iraq and born”, but that is like saying that a great gymnast is the subsequent deployment to Helmand, as chaos grew born a gymnast. Of course, someone has to have talent due to policy that was increasingly reactive to events to be a great gymnast or a great concert pianist, but and less and less in control of them. There was increasingly they also have to put in the work and the training in an apparent lack of strategic thinking behind what we order to be successful before they give that first recital. were doing. As we started calling for NATO to develop There used to be a six-month civil service course on a new strategic concept, I began to ask myself who held strategic thinking; at the moment, it consists of one the UK’s strategic concept and whether there was one. module of one week’s training. That was the starting point for the Public Administration That lack of strategy is evident in all the contradictions Committee’s inquiry once I was elected its Chairman in in the documents. The national security strategy says this Parliament. Our report entitled, “Who does UK that it is the first duty of Government to protect our National Strategy?” is on the Table and tagged for this people. Well, that is clearly not so. The first priority of debate. The evidence, I am afraid, was more disturbing Government is not defence. Health, pensions, schools, than I had imagined. the Department for International Development, and The word “strategy” itself has become corrupted. It even the European Union budget have taken priority has become a tool of management-speak for consultancies over the defence of these islands in the comprehensive and people who do not really know what they are doing spending review. when they use it. We heard evidence from Sir Rob Fry The words “national interest” are sprinkled liberally and Commodore Stephen Jermy, who were both involved throughout the documents. They are mentioned 26 times in decisions in the Ministry of Defence about the in the national security strategy and six times in the deployment to Helmand. They said that it was driven SDSR, and were even mentioned once by my right hon. primarily by military concerns, without any strategic Friend the Chancellor in his comprehensive spending thinking going on in Whitehall about the reasons for it review statement—but that was only in connection with or its consequences. justifying the increase in spending on overseas aid. In In one rather telling piece of evidence, Peter Hennessy, all those mentions, there is very little definition of what shortly to be ennobled as Lord Hennessy, says that our national interests actually are. When I tabled a politicians too often reach for the word “vision”, and parliamentary question to the Prime Minister to ask that we should be ready to excise that word with our red him, he referred me to paragraph 2.12 of the national buzzer, because it is an excuse for a politician to disconnect security strategy: his aspirations and the sunlit uplands that he dreams of “Our security, prosperity and freedom are interconnected and from the reality of the world in which he, and the civil mutually supportive. They constitute our national interest.” servants who have to deliver the policy that he is seeking to deliver, have to live. That is really sub-GCSE stuff. If that is the depth of thinking that has gone into an assessment of our national We found that Whitehall Departments each have interests, we can hardly expect much coherence from their own version of strategy, with their own strategy the Government’s documents. units, but none of them knows what they are meant to contribute to national strategy, if they even knew what The real inconsistency at the heart of all three of the that was. That applies to the Treasury in particular. Government’s reviews is the attempt to reconcile what There is no doubt that the main strategic effort of this the Foreign Secretary has said about having no strategic Government has to be deficit reduction, but I think shrinkage and expanding our influence on the world that, as far as the Treasury is concerned, it is the stage with the savage defence cuts that will lead to a Government’s sole strategic effort. To have a sole strategic reduction of one third in our deployable capability. effort is strategic blindness, not strategy. It may be a That is what the defence planning assumptions actually necessity to have that imperative driving the whole show. There has been an attempt to connect the Foreign Government at this time, but other strategic priorities Secretary’s vision of our foreign policy with the reality have to be recognised. of the deficit reduction programme, but it has not been achieved. Strategy is not just about reconciling ends, ways and means. It is not about having a document that is published Our Committee concluded that political strategic as a Command Paper and stacked on a shelf afterwards— leadership is essential if we are to have a coherent job done. Strategy is a state of mind. It is a process of national strategy. Strategic thinking is vital, and we thinking that has to be ongoing, has to be done need to examine all the threats, possibilities and continuously, and has to be continually adapted. A opportunities, not just certain threats and contingencies. grand strategy, or a national strategy, is about reconciling Within Whitehall we need challenge, with alternatives all the instruments of statecraft to the main ends of coming up through the system and people conducting promoting the security, peace and prosperity of the thorough analysis. Ideally, we want a national centre of people of these islands. It is evident that both the strategic assessment, protected for secrecy in a similar national security strategy and the defence and security way to the intelligence services and able to provide a review lack strategic thinking—the consistency of analysis permanent resource to Ministers. and assessment that is necessary to give them strategic coherence. Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): I The problem is that the work simply has not been thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way, given the done, because Whitehall lacks the capacity to do it. time limit—perhaps I have bought him a little more There are no people working for the National Security time. Would he like to define for the House what he Council or the strategy units of different Departments believes national strategy should be? 1117 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1118 Review Review Mr Jenkin: I am grateful for the question, but I will who have served, or are serving, in the armed forces. A continue. [Interruption.] With respect, that was not the number of constituents work for the Ministry of Defence purpose of the Committee’s report. We were not trying and the armed forces in a civilian capacity. Too often— to write a national strategy; we were simply trying to although not this afternoon, I am pleased to say—they advertise the fact that the capacity for developing a are dismissed with pejorative labels, when the reality is coherent national strategy does not exist. that they often do important work of great value to the armed forces, and some do so in dangerous circumstances. Mr Ainsworth: I think that the hon. Gentleman is on As the right hon. Member for North East Hampshire to something, and I know that a number of people are (Mr Arbuthnot) said, the previous Government announced examining his report. Why does he think that we as a the first ever strategic defence review within a month of political class have shrunk to pragmatic reactions, rather taking office in 1997 to determine the future of the than daring ones? Does he think politicians would be UK’s defence policy. At the time, the then Defence rewarded or punished if they dared to be strategic? Secretary, now Lord Robertson, who is one of my predecessors in the Hamilton part of my constituency, Mr Jenkin: The right hon. Gentleman asks an interesting said: question, which has been raised with me before. There “Hundreds of experts from within the MOD, the Armed are two reasons why politicians fear such a challenge. Forces and elsewhere have given a great deal of time over the past The first is that politicians who are busy running their year to produce the most significant reshaping of our Armed Departments do not like people running into their Forces in a generation…It is absolutely right that we should have offices with contrary ideas and imperatives. The other consulted so widely”. reason is that if they ask for alternatives to be developed, As the right hon. Gentleman noted earlier, that review they say, “Whatever you do, don’t put it on to a piece of took 13 months. It was comprehensive in its scope, paper and don’t e-mail it to anybody, in case it leaks forensic in its detail and rooted in the needs and priorities out.” of our defence. It would obviously be foolhardy to We are embarked on a deficit reduction programme measure such exercises by such shallow criteria alone, that depends on a certain economic out-turn. I just but the strategic defence review in 1998 ran to 390 pages. hope that the Treasury has run through the alternative Given the comments of my right hon. Friend the Member plans B, C and D, in case things do not turn out as we for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) at the start of the expect. The problem is that we have got into the habit of debate, I should say that I am not sure how many of thinking in closed systems. Economists in particular those pages were blank, but I am sure there were at lot work in mathematical equations and like tame, predictable fewer of them, proportionately, than in the recent strategic problems. Economics is all about prediction and certainty, defence and security review. with the intention of being vindicated by what happens. There is a real contrast between the two exercises, not We live in a world in which problems are not tame but only in the time taken and the depth of content in the wicked and unpredictable. As we face greater and greater reports, but in the detail and the consultation undertaken, global challenges, we must be more prepared for the which leads many of us to express real concerns about unpredictability of the global security, economic and aspects of the current review and the consequences that geopolitical environments. We therefore need the capacity we will all have to face as a result. for strategy. I shall give a brief example. I gather that after the Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): I would like to point global banking crisis started, Her Majesty the Queen out one contrast between the review then and the review asked how nobody had seen that it would happen, given now. We now have the National Security Council, which that it was so big. The answer is that one body did is bringing in a lot of information from various foresee a global banking collapse being a major security Departments, such as the Foreign Office and the threat to the UK. It was the advanced research and Department for International Development. Will the hon. assessment group, based at Shrivenham, and I am afraid Gentleman comment on that improvement on the process that in March the right hon. Member for Coventry that the Labour Government followed between 1997 North East as Defence Secretary closed it down, to save and 1998? £1 million. [Interruption.] It was such a small cut, he did not even realise it was being made. I have no doubt Tom Greatrex: I was just going on to say that there it did not cross his desk. It was shut down because it are differences in the circumstances in 1997 and now. had made enemies by telling truth to power, and that is My right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East the capacity that needs to exist in Whitehall. (Keith Vaz) has talked about some of the security aspects of the review, and I am sure that he will go into 4.4 pm that further if he catches the Deputy Speaker’s eye. Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ Obviously, the economic circumstances were more Co-op): Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for the benign in 1997 than they have been recently. Reviewing opportunity to speak in the debate. As a new Member, I defence requirements in 2010 is not an unnecessary have to say that there have been a number of distinguished exercise, but as the Secretary of State’s own words in his and knowledgeable contributions from both sides of correspondence with the Prime Minister exposed, perhaps the House. brutally: Along with every other Member, I would like to place “this process is looking less and less defensible as a proper SDSR on record my admiration for the work of our armed and more like a ‘super CSR’”. forces and for those who work for the Ministry of The strength of the link between the defence and security Defence, particularly at this time. Since being elected in review and the comprehensive spending review has been May, I have had the privilege of meeting constituents widely acknowledged as a deficiency in the strategic 1119 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1120 Review Review [Tom Greatrex] cost of rebasing troops from Germany to the UK and no account of where service personnel and their families nature of the defence and security review. Given the will be housed, and that gives no detail on exactly how explicit link to cost, it is even more important that the the draw-down of personnel from 20,000 to zero in SDSR approach should have been thorough. 10 years will happen, has a gaping hole in the middle of That brings me to a specific concern, which has been it. I hope the Minister will respond to at least some of raised by a number of constituents. Perhaps the Minister those points in his remarks. will have time to address it at least in passing in his closing remarks. The decision to rebase our forces from 4.13 pm Germany is in principle welcome. The presence of UK Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): I should first armed forces on mainland Europe was at one time like to associate myself with the tribute paid to our necessary, but perhaps the need is no longer so pressing. armed services and their families by my hon. Friend the The aim to return half our personnel from Germany to Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames)—a family the UK by 2015 and the remainder by 2020, as page 32 member of ours is on a second tour of duty in Afghanistan. of the review states, is laudable, and I am sure there will I am also delighted to follow my hon. Friend the Member be very little opposition. However, the lack of detail on for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin), because how that will be achieved undermines the nature of the among the key terms in the review are “strategy” and review and its thoroughness. In response to a number of “strategic thinking”. Although I am not an expert in parliamentary questions, the MOD said that more detailed every aspect of the armed forces, nor on every aspect of work will be required and that it is too early to say what procurement, I have been involved, through the centre the financial impact will be. It troubles me that the for defence studies, in the international framework and Government have taken such a decision in the context landscape in which our country must operate in future. of a cost-influenced—if not cost-driven—review exercise without considering the cost. Some would say that the last century was dominated by the politics of ideas, whether communism, terrorist One estimate is that the eventual cost could be many ideology or issues of nationhood, including in the Balkans. millions, and I believe that the Minister is on record as I believe that this century will be dominated by the saying that there will be a long-term saving, but there is politics of economics. The ability to satisfy the demands little detail on when that saving will be achieved or on of domestic audiences will shape international politics, the figures on which any projection of savings is based. and may well make international engagement more vicious and less high-minded than previously. Even in Mr Kevan Jones: I had responsibility for this matter countries where democracy is not exactly the byword, as a Minister and we looked at rebasing from Germany. such as China and Russia, the economic needs of domestic The estimate back in 1994 when we brought most of the populations will determine international policies and RAF back was something like £5 billion. Under the strategies. Britain will be no different. treaty, there is a responsibility to write to the German This more competitive and aggressive economic climate Government to inform them that we want to withdraw. will be based around access to resources and global I made some inquiries this week and found out that that trade. We are particularly vulnerable to threats to globalised has not yet happened. trade: we import 50% of our food, the prices of which are expected to rise by 40% over the next 10 years; we Tom Greatrex: I thank my hon. Friend for his will be importing by sea more than 35% of our gas intervention, which I think brings to bear an important supplies, while energy costs will rise and be subject to aspect of the matter that has not been addressed—I greater politicisation; and imported minerals such as look to the Minister to do so in his closing remarks. chromium, cobalt and manganese are crucial to the I am raising the issue of rebasing not to devalue the future of our electronics businesses. These minerals are point that defence and security interests should be a finite resource, and we will no longer be competing for paramount, but to illustrate that even when it appears these resources just with our natural allies. We and the that costs have been prioritised, as in the review, there is rest of the world are totally interdependent, and the rest insufficient detail. That leads to concerns that other of the world is getting a whole lot more acquisitive and matters have not been considered in sufficient detail. competitive. Specifically on rebasing, it is unfair on returning personnel What are the threats that our defence capacity must and their families to announce their return to the UK address in this economic paradigm? Piracy is one. The without providing detail to allow them to prepare. Somalis are merely adopters of an old entrepreneurial What does the Minister say to a family who have lived business. With food price spikes, the increase in energy and worked in Germany for the past 20 years and who costs and limited mineral resources, it is calculated that now face the prospect of a return to the UK in five or the impact of piracy has only just begun. Last year 10 years? On what criteria will decisions on when to alone, 217 merchant ships were abducted by pirates, and return troops be made? What assessment has been this was not just confined to the horn of Africa. The made of the suitability of using RAF bases that are no British Chamber of Shipping has stated: longer used as such for housing Army personnel? There “Climate change and scarcity of resources will bring unknown are a series of unanswered questions and we need and destabilising influences at sea – as we all fight for vanishing answers—if not this afternoon, soon. resources.” The detailed work of which the Minister spoke in his However, it is not only sea routes that could be disrupted. parliamentary answer—it was a vague but not necessarily I believe that there will be an increase in land piracy. I unhelpful or unrevealing answer—should have been was involved in the Caucasus and worked on the pipeline carried out before, or at least parallel to, work on the policy across central Asia, and I believe that there will strategic review. An SDSR that takes no account of the be an increase in land piracy, such as energy pipeline 1121 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1122 Review Review hijacking and the illegal sequestration of essential mineral wanted to spend four hours listening to the country’s resources, which could fundamentally disrupt our domestic experts on defence, this would be the place to be. It has economy. been a fascinating debate. As the Chairman of the The MOD has an important role to play, in relation Defence Committee said, we have in this House people to special forces with specialist knowledge, logistical who know a huge amount about the subject. assistance to support countries whose mineral resources I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for are at risk or vulnerable to criminal or state-sponsored East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) on his appointment as sequestration, the global reach from our aircraft carriers, shadow Secretary of State, and all the Front Bench team. our frigates playing their part in keeping trade routes In the time available, I want to raise three aspects of open, and minesweepers securing key pinch points across the review, the first of which is security and the importance the globe. Neither can we underestimate the diplomatic of recognising the counter-terrorism agenda within the value of our military when it supports other military wider defence and security strategy. I shall probably forces around the world. It is respected by the world and make a loyalist speech as far as the Government are can secure our trade routes and aid the capacity of concerned, certainly compared with some of the speeches other countries to secure theirs. from Conservative Members, because I fully support That is how our constituents will judge the defence of the Government’s counter-terrorism strategy in the security this country. Will there be affordable food on our review. supermarket shelves? Will we be able to keep the lights The third and fourth parts of the review document on across Britain? deal with counter-terrorism and acknowledge this country’s success over several years in joining up various aspects Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): of government. I am delighted that the hon. Member Does my hon. Friend agree that the defence budget is for Colchester (Bob Russell) is here, because he was unique in the way we must view it? It is a form of co-author of the Home Affairs Committee report that insurance policy. That being so, we must accept that strongly recommended the establishment of the National when the risks increase, so must the premium. Security Council, which the previous Government strongly resisted, although I never discovered why. As soon as Laura Sandys: Most certainly. However, my point is the new Government took office, they accepted the also about how we look at those risks. We must start Committee’s recommendation, and we now have a looking at them from a domestic perspective. We are Committee that spans all Departments and all the part of the globalised trade environment, and if globalised experts who sit under the chairmanship of the Home trading is threatened, our domestic economic capability, Secretary or the Prime Minister and can draw all the our recovery and everything about our growth is threatened. strands together to look at the security of the country When we talk to our constituents about the strategic as a whole. defence review, and the budget that defence requires, we My second point is about the counter-terrorism budget, must make the case that it is about ensuring that we do and I believe that the review document preserves that not get into an inflationary cycle of rocketing food budget. From what I have read of it, there is a commitment prices, that energy arrives in this country safely and to ensuring that the previous Government’s initiatives without the increased cost of convoys and supply from and the new initiatives proposed in the strategy are unstable countries, and that our high-tech businesses pursued. That means—I hope—that the fears of people can access the critical resources that will keep Britain such as John Yates, the head of counter-terrorism in the open for business. Metropolitan police, will not be realised. The House The free movement of global resources will be the will recall that in a closed session of the Association of prize, and must form part of the strategy. I am encouraged Chief Police Officers conference earlier this year, Mr Yates by the strategic defence review, and the fact that at the raised the possibility that the counter-terrorism budget heart of the illustration of how we take the defence would be cut. I think that the review preserves that review forward, strategy and policy are guiding us. I budget. Indeed, from the opportunities that I and others hope that we will all take note of the recent report on have had to probe the Government on the issue, I think strategy and on thoughtful planning that has just been that that aspect of the home affairs budget is to be published. I believe that we have got the framework preserved, although perhaps the Minister will confirm right; we must now get the texture right, as well as the that when he replies to this debate. context in which this country will have to survive in My final point concerns Yemen. I should declare my future. interest: I was born in Yemen and I spent the first 11 years of my life there. I have led parliamentary 4.21 pm delegations to Yemen over my 23 years in this House, and the only reason we have not visited this year is the Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): It is a pleasure to security situation. However, I plan to go in the next few follow the excellent speech of the hon. Member for months with other Members of Parliament, and if South Thanet (Laura Sandys). She rightly widened the anyone would like to come—including you, Mr Deputy debate beyond the defence part of the defence and Speaker—we would be delighted to take them. My security review to include other aspects of global policy concern is that people outside this House have talked that affect the security of our country. That is what I about Yemen as though it were a failed state. It is not a intend to do in the brief time available, and I shall try to failed state; in fact, it is probably the most democratic follow her example in not taking up all my allocation. of all the states in the middle east, with the exception of The hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West Israel. It is, however, a country that is capable of failing, (Tom Greatrex) correctly predicted that I am here not which is why we need to give it enormous support. We to increase my knowledge of defence, although if I had need to engage with the Yemeni Government and the 1123 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1124 Review Review [Keith Vaz] over a considerable period, has put this Administration in a near-impossible position, yet the outcomes of the Yemeni people. We need to ensure that our international SDSR are tough and realistic but forward-looking. The development budget is increased, and not kept to its SDSR and the national security strategy have, by and current levels, because even though Yemen is one of the large, been well received. I think that their common most beautiful countries on earth, it is also one of theme is flexibility and adaptability. the poorest. Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula—as the My hon. Friends the Members for Mid Sussex (Nicholas branch of al-Qaeda in Yemen is called—is determined Soames) and for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison) to feed on the poverty of the Yemeni people and make said that, after this debate and its due consideration, it the case to them that nobody is interested in what ultimately comes down to the individuals who are on happens in Yemen. the front line. That being the case, I want to talk about The hon. Member for North West Leicestershire defence training. (Andrew Bridgen) paid tribute to the security services Naturally, I was disappointed that the Metrix consortium and the authorities at East Midlands airport when the plan for a single tri-service defence training establishment Home Secretary made her statement on Monday. As in St Athan in my constituency was not viable. I am the constituency MP for the airport, he will know of the pleased, however, that the Secretary of State and the concern—indeed, the shock—of local people that a Prime Minister have said that St Athan remains the package that started off in Yemen should have gone preferred location for the defence training solution. through Germany and ended up at East Midlands Decisions such as this cannot be taken in isolation, and airport. While we have been sitting here over the past the communities surrounding St Athan recognise that fact. four hours of this debate—I am not saying that I have I have had the opportunity to question in private and been sitting here for that time; rather, the House itself in more detail the Secretary of State and some of his has been sitting—the French Interior Minister has made colleagues, and I am grateful for their responses, some a statement. He has said that it is thought that one of of which it would be inappropriate to share here. I have the bombs—we do not know whether it was the one on gained a better understanding of the reasons for the its way to Dubai or the one going to East Midlands failure of the Metrix consortium. I look forward to airport—was going to be denoted within 17 minutes of further meetings with the Secretary of State and his its being found. colleagues to try to establish what St Athan can do to There is a serious problem, but what do we do to help put itself in a strong position as we go forward with the Yemen? We do not cut off all its freight, and we certainly defence review. As a strong supporter of the plan, I am do not want to stop people coming here from Yemen. disappointed that Metrix could not deliver a commercially Instead, we need to give Yemen the security equipment robust proposal within the desired time scale. Clearly, I that we promised at the London conference in January. would have welcomed a £14 billion investment in my Prime Minister Gordon Brown called a conference of constituency, but it must also be right for the nation and the Friends of Yemen,who were given certain assurances, for the nation’s security needs. one of which was that equipment would be sent to Questions have been raised by constituents about the San’a and Aden. [Interruption.] The Minister shakes appropriateness of providing training through a private his head, but the answer is yes, and other Ministers have finance initiative scheme under a 30-year contract. This confirmed that to me. There was an assurance that raises and highlights two key points, the first of which is security equipment would be given to Yemen, so that it whether defence training should be conducted by a could perform the task that is being performed at our private firm. I am a fan of PFI in general. The transfer airports in this country, thereby preventing packages of of risk is a key benefit of PFI, but in defence terms the that kind and any passengers carrying such devices public purse will always have to carry the risk and bail from leaving Yemen. out any failure. That raises questions about whether My message to the Government is that if we are PFI is appropriate for defence. talking about the security of our country, we have to The second issue is the term of the contract. The remember that security does not stop at our borders. public purse will be hit hard unless all details are The hon. Member for South Thanet talked about piracy specified and agreed at the signing the agreement. It is off Somalia, another country that is in great difficulties. difficult to know what will be all the requirements over What do we do? We do not leave those countries on a 30-year contract; our technical training requirements their own; we engage with them and ensure that they 30 years ago were very different from what we need now. have support. As part of the review, I hope that we will That demonstrates the difficulty of planning over a understand that issue. If we do, not only will the people 30-year period in a PFI contract, especially as the of Yemen and the world be safer; more importantly, the nature of the risks we face these days changes at a much people of our country will be, too. quicker pace. It would be useful to have the Secretary of State’s and the Minister’s views on the timing and 4.30 pm particularly on the use of PFI for defence projects and, most specifically, for defence training. Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): Thank you, The training needs of the forces still need to be Mr Deputy Speaker, for calling me in this extremely addressed. The reasons for the previous Government’s important debate. defence training review remain. We need to offer our I thank the Secretary of State and his colleagues for forces the best training possible to protect themselves the work they have done on the strategic defence and and our nation when fighting in the line of duty and to security review in extremely difficult circumstances. It equip them with transferable skills when they leave the has been said on many occasions that the state of the services. To my mind, that is an essential element of the public finances, together with under-investment in defence military covenant. The principle and benefits behind 1125 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1126 Review Review the tri-service training model are still true, and the There are also significant opportunities to introduce run-down state of training establishments, as inherited modern training methods involving the latest technologies, from the previous Administration, is still a matter of thus enhancing the capabilities of our forces. I would, concern and needs to be addressed. however, caution against centralising technical training The social and economic demands of today’s trainees on a single site, as Metrix proposed. I believe that that are far greater than they were in the past, and we need would pose a security risk that could be managed better to match their expectations. The positive influence over on a small number of sites than in a single location. We the different cultures of each individual service that a need a defence capacity that involves not only appropriate tri-service facility would bring can only be beneficial. It equipment, but the training flexibility that makes it was interesting to note from the UK-French security possible to respond to an ever-changing environment. co-operation data that there is a plan to develop a joint Let me return to the subject of St Athan. As the expeditionary force involving all three services. When I Secretary of State has pointed out on several occasions, refer to a joint force, I mean that it would involve all its infrastructure, facilities and location won through three services; it would not necessarily involve the French. during the last consideration. Preliminary site works Training will be provided. The proposal underlines the have been conducted, and planning permissions are in importance of co-operation between the services. We place. Those factors remain, as do the needs of the also need to offer transferable skills that members of forces. I look forward to the spring, when the Secretary the forces can use when they leave Her Majesty’s service. of State will outline the next steps—within the financial It was alarming to read that even in 1999, when the envelope, of course. previous Government launched the defence training There was no problem with the site. It was Metrix, review—incidentally, the fact that the process began the developer, that failed. However, I hope that the 11 years ago highlights the delays created by that Secretary of State and the Ministry of Defence will Government—site running costs represented between recognise the support that the communities in and 40% and 50% of the total costs of the training around St Athan were prepared to give, and the establishment. That is clearly not efficient spending. compromises that they were prepared to make. That Training is currently delivered at nine key locations. A good will remains, on the basis that the St Athan facility considerable amount of technical training is common will be used to its full potential. to all services, and it obviously does not make sense for identical functions to be delivered over several locations. 4.39 pm Mr Havard: I was going to ask the hon. Gentleman Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op): earlier what he had been told by Ministers, in secret or The debate has been excellent, but I do not believe that otherwise, about why the St Athan plan would not go it has addressed the aircraft carriers issue in as much ahead, but as his speech has unfolded it has become detail as it deserves, and I hope to remedy that. clear what the excuses are. Given that he agrees that St When the Secretary of State and others discuss the Athan should still be the preferred site and given that nuclear deterrent, great emphasis is placed on the need PFI is not the right way of financing it, has he received for a continuous at-sea presence, yet in respect of Britain’s any undertaking that it will be financed by general global reach by aircraft carrier we are apparently happy spend from the Ministry of Defence? to settle for a presence every now and again. We are building two aircraft carriers but one is to be mothballed, Alun Cairns: The Secretary of State made clear in his so the second will not be available when it is in refit—or, written statement that there would be a statement about indeed, when the French are seeking to use it. Therefore, defence training by the spring, and that written statement we will have only occasional use of our own aircraft specified St Athan as the preferred location for the carriers: for us to end up with part-use of one when we defence training solution. We could not ask for a clearer are building two does not seem to me to represent the statement than that. However, I also benefited from best use of money. meetings with Ministers, including the Secretary of State. One of those meetings, incidentally, was offered There is no guarantee that we will ever have much on an all-party basis, but unfortunately Labour Members access to the French carriers. We will be able to use chose not to turn up. Obviously, information would them only when the French are not using them, or when have been shared with the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues they agree. There will, of course, also be times when a if he was unable to attend himself. carrier is being refitted. Therefore, although we are going to the expense of building two carriers, we cannot Mr Havard: The hon. Gentleman may be satisfied receive a guarantee that we will have a continuous at-sea with that, but I think that the position is still very global presence by aircraft carrier. unclear. It is also unclear where St Athan will fit in with In defending the implementation of the “cats and the training that is required elsewhere in the country. It traps” policy, the Defence Secretary has mentioned that seems that the hon. Gentleman has been handed a we want to have interoperability with the United States. Confederate dollar. A better explanation is needed. However, it is unclear whether any agreement has been struck with the United States about our being able to Alun Cairns: If the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris borrow one of its carriers or use its decks, or whether Bryant) had not left after a bit of a spat because there the United States will want to use our carriers if it ends was a mix-up over the room changes, that information up one short. There is no point in arguing that we want would have been shared with him. It is not necessarily to have “cats and traps” for the sake of interoperability appropriate to share such information in public, although with the United States unless some deal has been done I have been reassured that more information will be whereby that will be a benefit—but no mention has given in public as time goes on. been made of that so far. 1127 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1128 Review Review [Mr Ian Davidson] 90% of top generals did—so it is difficult to accept that the forces represent the society that they seek to defend. When the Minister sums up, will he tell us whether Thinking back to my days in the borders, I recall that catapults are to be fitted to both aircraft carriers? If in some towns the reaction to any proposed change was not, we will have aircraft designed for catapults and “Aye been”, on the basis that things had aye been like traps but only one aircraft carrier they can fly off. On that, so must not change. Although we must be proud the other hand, if we fit catapults to both carriers, we of traditions, we should not be prisoners of tradition. will end up spending half a billion pounds fitting them There is an unwillingness on the part of the Government to mothballed aircraft carriers. Neither of those options to challenge some of the existing structures, be it the seems to me to represent an effective use of money. It Fleet Air Arm or the need to maintain an RAF. There is would be helpful if the Minister were to tell us whether no evidence that some of those more drastic options the French or the United States had asked us in any have been fully discussed or thought through. way, shape or form to fit catapults and traps to our aircraft carriers, or did this situation arise simply as a I wish to touch on the defence industrial strategy, consequence of the Air Force’s obsession with fast jets? because there has been a lot of discussion about the terms of business agreement—TOBA—between British The Government seem to have an unhealthy obsession Aerospace and the Ministry of Defence. That is an ideal with fast jets, and to have inadequately appreciated the example of good practice, rather than bad practice. additional capability provided to us by vertical and People could haggle about the detail of the deal, but the short take-off and landing aircraft. Yes, it is true that concept of the Government making a plan with a firm they carry lighter weights and can fly less far, but they in the private sector that gives it a guarantee of work for are also much more effective in providing close air a period that will allow it to invest, in both capital support, as our troops who have served in the Falklands resources and personnel, in return for that flow of work and Afghanistan can testify. As the previous Secretary is sensible. We cannot go on with a system of simply of State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry buying off the shelf—one here, one there and one North East (Mr Ainsworth), said, we are giving up this somewhere else. Without question if we had not built capability not just in the short term but permanently; if aircraft carriers we would never have had the capacity we scrap the Harriers or do not upgrade them in future, to build Type 45 destroyers. That capacity would simply we will lose that entire capability. To base our entire fast have been lost, because the work force would have been jet defence structure on the concept that we must have dispersed. generation five because at some point in the future I hope that when the Government come to examine somebody else might have it is to focus too much on one the defence industrial strategy, or whatever their equivalent element of need. It would be useful if the Minister told of that is, they will overcome their tendency simply to us how much each of the “cats and traps” will cost, buy the cheapest on all occasions, but will look forward because if he does not have that figure to hand, this and identify what industrial and commercial capacities would appear to be a leap in the dark. we want to retain for the long term. The lack of political balance in how the British media treat the various parties is nowhere more glaringly Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): I thank obvious than in the discussion about aircraft carriers my hon. Friend for the points that he has been making without aircraft. Can we imagine the meal the press and about the skills base. That is particularly important in television would have made if a Labour Government Plymouth, where proposed changes in base porting and had for one moment proposed that we should have the removal of frigates mean that Babcock will have a aircraft carriers without aircraft? I am not necessarily huge trough in its work load, which will cause us real the brightest, but I recognise that the secret is in the problems. Does he share my concern, and my belief that name: the concept of an “aircraft carrier”means something those factors should have been considered before the that carries aircraft. The fact that we will have aircraft SDSR, not after it? carriers without aircraft—and that the Government have got away almost scot-free with it—represents Mr Davidson: Yes, I do share that view. The Government, something of an imbalance. I am looking forward to rightly in many ways, have said—the previous Government hearing the Minister announce that he has devised a said this too—that defence is not simply a job creator new system of guns without bullets, rockets without for people on the home front, so to speak. The question explosives and so on. Those are equally ludicrous of jobs and, more importantly, continuing capabilities suggestions. is a valid part of this whole discussion and negotiation. The Government have been insufficiently radical in We could probably always buy almost any individual examining structures. I understand that under their item more cheaply somewhere else, but if we do that we proposals the joint strike fighter will be flown off the will end up beholden to someone else for everything. carriers by joint RAF/Fleet Air Arm groups, crews, We must identify the capacities we want to retain, as pilots and so on. In those circumstances, why do we Lord Drayson’s defence industrial strategy did, and need a Fleet Air Arm? Why do we need to have RAF then be prepared to enter long-term agreements with pilots flying off aircraft carriers? That is an example of suppliers for them. That will involve manpower and the sort of culture of defence in the forces. I served on personnel planning to avoid peaks and troughs. the Public Accounts Committee for many years and we In the minute that remains, I want to ask the Minister constantly got the feeling that the service personnel at about base closures. The Government must start making the top were all far too cosy, that it was all too much of commitments fairly quickly, not only to individual locations an old pals act, that they were drawn from too narrow a but about what they are prepared to do when bases are social base and that they were all scratching each other’s shut. Will they promise Kinloss or Lossiemouth that backs. Only 7% of children go to a private school, yet they will clean up the land sites and spend money on 1129 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1130 Review Review infrastructure and making those sites available for firms lifetime of this coalition Government. We cannot expect to move in, or are they simply going to pull up sticks to send our brave men and women to serve overseas and move away? Many of those communities have when their families back at home live in accommodation served the country well for some substantial time, and I that is not up to an acceptable standard. I praise the hope that we will reward them appropriately, or at least previous Government for Merville barracks, even though, that we will not leave them swinging in the wind. like others, I do not approve of the private finance My final point is about our agreement with the initiative. None the less, the barracks is of the standard French. I hope that we are going to be as hard-headed that we should expect for all our military personnel, and about it as they are, and that it will not mean that they its married quarters—an area in which we are lacking—are take over our industrial capacity rather than our being also of the quality that we would wish to see. able to contribute to joint developments. I shall conclude with the Falklands and related matters in the south Atlantic. The only air bridge between the UK and the Falklands is Ascension Island, but there is 4.51 pm another island in the south Atlantic to which this country Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): I thank you for imposing owes a debt of gratitude, and which has the same a time limit, Mr Deputy Speaker. That is the first cut of strategic importance in the 21st century as it did in the this Parliament that I welcome, because it means that 19th and 20th centuries. I refer to the island of St Helena. everyone who wishes to speak will have the opportunity There are plans for an airport on the island, and it to do so. would be of strategic as well as domestic and economic Let me start by paying tribute to the soldiers of importance, because it would provide an alternative air 16 Air Assault Brigade from the Colchester garrison, bridge between the UK and the Falklands. who are currently deployed for the third time in Helmand As we have heard today, the Argentines still cast province along with others from Wattisham, Woodbridge covetous eyes on the Falkland Islands, and there is an and various other bases around the UK who are part of economic case for placing all the islands of the south the brigade. I also pay tribute to the people back at the Atlantic in one economic and military federation. They garrison, including the families and all the support are all British overseas territories, with British units. It is fantastic to see the Army welfare provisions citizens, and just as successive Governments have protected and safety nets come into play when 3,000 men and the Falkland Islands, we should realise that there are women, but predominantly male soldiers, are deployed other islands in the south Atlantic, too. Ascension overseas—previously in Iraq and now in Afghanistan. Island is a crucial element in Britain’s interests in the Given the events of the past 48 hours in the United area, and it comes under the jurisdiction of St Helena, States of America, we should bear in mind that in two so I urge the Government to give every support to an years’ time there will be another presidential election, airport on St Helena, because of its strategic defence which will be three years before 2015 and the proposed importance. withdrawal from Afghanistan. I have a real fear that the next President of the United States will be not so much 4.57 pm a Republican as a Tea Party headbanger Republican. John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): As a new member of the That is a serious issue for the United Kingdom in Defence Committee and, indeed, a relatively new Member relation to our joint defence activities. of this House, I do not approach these matters as an I welcome the fact that the coalition Government expert. However, having listened to my hon. Friend the have increased the number of helicopters and unmanned Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin), I aerial vehicles going to Afghanistan. I urged the previous contribute with some trepidation as a former strategy Government to do that, because UAVsare a very important consultant. He seemed to say that, essentially, there is a part of the efforts to identify insurgents. lack of strategic thinking throughout government. I suspect that the real problem is the interaction with Mr Kevan Jones: It is a bit rich to suggest that the strategic thinkers and politicians. That is what has Government have increased the number of helicopters, bedevilled the process. given that the order that had been placed for 22 new I shall make four observations and then some brief Chinooks has been reduced to 10—and I must add that concluding comments. Overall, the conclusions of the the answer I got this week on that subject was wrong. strategic defence and security review were the best that could have been achieved in the time available and in Bob Russell: I am delighted with whichever Government the circumstances that existed. Legacy issues were the provides additional resources to 16 Air Assault Brigade. first instrumental factor in defining the outcome of the If the previous Government gave additional resources I SDSR, and I make that point broadly, without any say well done to them, and if the coalition Government intention of launching into a partisan attack. It is have given them I say well done to them. What our absolutely clear that over the period from 1997 to troops need are more resources to help them. In that 2007, spending on defence stayed at broadly the same regard, I was delighted to spend some time with 16 Air level—2.5% of GDP. However, the number of Assault Brigade, before some of them went to Afghanistan commitments grew massively, and in that context it was on their third deployment, on their improvised explosive going to be difficult not to delay some decisions or device training. That was a very worthwhile exercise. over-spend. The right hon. Member for Coventry North The last aspect of domestic military policy that I East (Mr Ainsworth), the former Defence Secretary, want to address is the Army housing modernisation this afternoon disputed the idea of over-spend, but in programme. This is an issue that I have been raising reality, with that commitment and with the unintended with the previous Government for the past 13 years. I expenditure that emerged, there was bound to be a sincerely hope that matters will be resolved during the problem. 1131 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1132 Review Review Mr Kevan Jones: I am interested that the hon. Gentleman that obviously influence the MOD’s decision making should be using 1997 as his starting point. Does he have led it to prop up industry ahead of making the best agree that some of the cost pressures on the procurement decisions in defence terms. budget were down to the incompetence of previous I acknowledge the contribution made by the hon. Conservative Governments? I am thinking particularly Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson); of of how Nimrod was procured and of programmes such course there needs to be an understanding of what as HMS Astute, to name but one other. long-term capabilities we need to invest in, but that must not always be as a substitute for making the right John Glen: Quite possibly, but we can make cheap defence decisions for our country’s long-term interests. points or look at the fundamental problems that go Often, we do not have the same person managing the back more than 20 years. procurement process. There is a change of scope and a The hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West lack of ownership. The MOD suffers and the taxpayer (Tom Greatrex) was looking at the respective contexts suffers, too. That is a critical issue that needs to be for the reviews—the one in 1997-98 and the one this addressed. year. The fundamental difference is the economic context. My fourth point is about the capacity to change, As the chief economic adviser to former Prime Minister which does not exist across the services in sufficient Tony Blair said, the Government had a golden economic quantity. One commentator over the summer referred legacy. That was not the case this time, and that is a to the SDSR debate—or discussion, or negotiations—as reality. We talk about strategic reviews, but they are a knife fight in a phone box, which is a pretty horrible within the context of the reality of the spending analogy but one borne out by an assessment in the environment. There was no way in which the spending immediate aftermath of the SDSR announcements of review could have been completed at a time scale different which services won. I do not think that that is helpful in from that of the SDSR. That is just the reality, it seems edifying the consequences and impact on the defence of to me. this nation. There seems to be a legacy, going back to ’97 and Let us consider some of the specifics. We have heard beyond, in which decisions were delayed. The decision a lot this afternoon about the decision on the Harriers, last year to slow the rate of the QE class carriers was but my concern would be about the extent of that gap in absolutely the right thing to have done in the context of capability and how long it will take us to get the the bigger pressures to release money for Afghanistan, capability in place to fill that gap. Will the Tornadoes be but that will mean that £600 million in extra spending viable for the length of time that they will potentially will be required later. The top 15 equipment programmes need to fill the gap and how much money will be are £8.8 billion over budget, with a 32-year cumulative required to fill some of the gaps? There is a great deal of delay. These are real challenges. supposition about how some of these things might work out. That might be from necessity—it is absolutely As a layperson, I look at the situation of Nimrod. I right to say that the financial pressures have been dominant look at how the number of aircraft ordered was reduced in the entire decision making process—but some real from 21 to nine and the cost per aircraft was increased concerns about capabilities that might be lacking in the by 200%. When I also consider that it was eight years near term need to be addressed. late, I see that there are fundamental problems in the whole system of government. As my hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet (Laura Sandys) said, by 2020 more than a third of our The second factor is making Afghanistan the No. 1 energy will be delivered by water-borne means, particularly priority in the review. We can say with some confidence liquefied gas. We have seen the emergence of piracy on that the decisions made in the SDSR were completely our seas. Such things might proliferate and it is difficult necessary and absolutely right in respect of our to determine the risk that will face our country. I am commitments—more than 9,000 troops in the theatre of concerned that there will be a delay in the readiness of war. That costs a lot of money. The problem of all capabilities. defence reviews is that they seek to address the long-term strategic issues. That, however, can never be done in It is absolutely clear that there needs to be greater isolation; it has to deal with current realities. capacity among the services to harmonise—for example, to harmonise the frequency of deployment, particularly There will be some positive consequences. Those as the Navy and the RAF will be working more closely listening to the debate who have family members in together. As significant reforms of allowances will need Afghanistan can be assured that the full range of training to take place, it is important that that is done with care and equipment is now available. Support for families is and fairness. I was talking to a constituent just a few as it should be and the previous Government took good weeks ago who has moved with his family nine times in steps in that direction during their last year in power. the past 11 years. I hope that when decisions are made The doubling of the operational allowance is also to be about the continuation of the CEA—the continuity of welcomed. education allowance—they will be made fairly so that I am trying to be as quick as I can. The third issue people can have continuity in their education. That thatIwouldliketotouchonisprocurement.Procurement seems to me an appropriate need, not a perk. issues are systemic; there is no clear balance of power—or The SDSR could never have achieved all that it set the balance is not right—between the MOD and the out to achieve, because of the legacy, the challenges of defence industry. The relationship is probably flawed. I procurement and the real issues to do with managing a hope that, as we see the defence industrial strategy budget that was pretty restricted. It was always going to emerge—after the SDSR, unhelpfully—we will have a be difficult, but I think there are grounds for optimism. serious examination of what is going on and what is I commend the Secretary of State for fighting hard and required. I fear that sometimes the political pressures doing the best he could in extremely difficult circumstances. 1133 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1134 Review Review 5.8 pm Marham contributes greatly in that respect. If it were to be closed and moved elsewhere, that would remove a Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con): I have key source of aspiration from the local economy. The found this a very interesting debate, and I was particularly employment figures for King’s Lynn and west Norfolk interested in the comments made by my hon. Friend the unfortunately show that the area has 7.4% unemployment. Member for Salisbury (John Glen) and the hon. Member The other base that is being suggested for the Tornado for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) on the subject is Moray in Scotland. That area has 4.8% unemployment, of the Tornado. One thing that the defence review got so there is much higher unemployment in the Marham right was the retention of the Tornado fleet, not least area than in its Scottish equivalent. I want to add that because of the role that that aircraft is performing in to the debate. Afghanistan. I know that there is a discussion going on about the future base of the Tornado, and I want to It is not only right economically and militarily for the Tornado to be based at Marham; it makes more sense in suggest—[HON.MEMBERS: “That it stays at Marham.”] The right hon. Member for Coventry North East terms of employment and the long-term impact that (Mr Ainsworth) and the hon. Member for Merthyr removing such a base could have on the constituency. Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr Havard) have the right idea There has been much discussion about the potential about where my speech is going. impact of closing two bases in Scotland—Kinloss and Lossiemouth. However, bases in the area surrounding I understand that there will have to be a reduction in Marham have also been heavily hit. Cottesmore and the number of squadrons, and it is right that we look at Wittering are under threat because of what is happening the future basing of the Tornado. However, it would be with the Harrier. Coltishall was closed in 2006, and that a grave mistake, both financially and militarily, for that had a very considerable impact on Norfolk. East Anglia capacity to move away from RAF Marham. The brave has not been immune from cuts over this period and is, men and women of 2, 9, 13 and 31 Squadrons have all as I say, an area of higher deprivation than the equivalent been fighting in Afghanistan. Recently, 2 Squadron part of Scotland. Instead of looking to relocate the returned to much fanfare in the streets of Swaffham. engineering facilities that I have mentioned from RAF Although Air Force personnel are very popular locally, Marham, which has a very good cost base, we should nationally the role that they have played in Afghanistan look to its being a future base for fast jets such as the is not well known. Quite a lot of it comprises covert joint strike fighter. I am very keen to discuss that operations that are not necessarily publicised. They also further with the Ministry of Defence. give support to our ground forces through close air support, shows of presence and shows of force, which 5.14 pm the Tornado is capable of doing at any time of day and Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): The long- in any weather conditions, unlike any other aircraft. In awaited and long-overdue SDSR has been an extremely addition, they do vital intelligence, surveillance and difficult task, and I place on record my thanks to the reconnaissance work. I was privileged to be shown Secretary of State, his team and all those who have around the air base, where I saw the tactical imagery worked on the review. Portsmouth base alone considered intelligence wing and the raptors that are installed on 900 options over the summer, and I pay tribute to the the Tornado fleet, which are very high-tech and innovative. Navy and civilian staff for doing an incredible job in a These images are used not only by our forces but by our very short time. allies, and they are forming a very important part of the combat striking that is going on in Afghanistan. I am delighted that the review has not been sea-blind and has shown an appreciation of the role that the Navy I want to pay particular attention to the engineering plays and its contribution to other Departments such as and maintenance work that takes place at RAF Marham. the Foreign Office, the Department for Business, Innovation That work used to take place at eight different bases but and Skills and the Treasury. That contribution is not has been centralised at Marham. I understand that it is just about our country’s security but about our entire a third more efficient than the US equivalent because of way of life—our ability to trade, our hydrographical all the work that has gone into ensuring that it is more and meteorological services, tackling crime and providing cost-effective. I have heard—this is just an estimate—that help in times of crisis. However, the breadth of its role it would cost £50 million to move that engineering should never detract from the depth of its contribution capacity to an alternative location. Given the deficit to the defence of the realm. situation that we face, it would be a grave mistake to To see the scale of the challenge that the SDSR move it for political reasons when it makes economic presented, one just has to examine the disparity between sense to base it at Marham. what the 1998 strategic review suggested for the Navy RAF Marham is also in an excellent strategic position and the current number of ships in service. For example, in relation to the conflict in Afghanistan. Unlike other it suggested 12 Type 45 destroyers, and we are building bases, there is no need for in-flight refuelling in order to only six. In future, to close the gap between need and get to the forward operating base in Cyprus, because affordability and to preserve the development and Marham has a very long airstrip that is suitable for all maintenance capabilities that we want in our bases and varieties of aircraft, and it is near to Lakenheath and dockyards, we need a planned but flexible approach to Mildenhall—key bases for our allies. procurement and to maximise every opportunity to The maintenance and engineering functions are very increase UK exports. We must get away from small important for our local skills base in west Norfolk. I orders built at lightning speed, which short-change the recently visited Swaffham Hamond’s high school, where Navy and the yard and place stress on the defence several pupils are talking about joining the RAF and budget. I am delighted that we will focus more on getting involved in that engineering work. This is an industrial strategy and defence diplomacy, and I look area with relatively high unemployment, where there is forward to the opportunity that the Type 26 will bring not a great variety of highly skilled jobs, and RAF to improve procurement practices and increase exports. 1135 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1136 Review Review [Penny Mordaunt] amazing, and I urge all Members of the House to take every opportunity to see them being built—built with We should remember that we have not sold a new great skill in British yards. They are well able to meet Navy-designed ship abroad since the 1970s, but it is the challenges of this unpredictable world. They are achievable. We are already selling standard kit to the multi-use, they provide value for money and they will US navy, and British gas turbines will power the DDG-1000 last 50 years. We will use them, they will prevent conflict destroyer and are already powering the USS Freedom. I and they will lead our response if and when the most urge the defence team to focus on trade deals where dread circumstances arise. they are viable and strategically advantageous. The green light for both carriers to be built gives During the course of the review there has been much Portsmouth base the stability to develop further as the discussion of the inflexibility of the carrier contracts, as home of the surface fleet. The SDSR and countless well as costly delays to the programme. Many Members other studies have always concluded that Portsmouth have formed the view that that is why we are to have the should be the home port. Hon. Members who take The carriers. I wish to use this opportunity to set the record Times will be familiar with my favourite political sketch straight. There are considerable running, docking and writer’s column. In her coverage of Monday night’s maintenance costs attached to having the carriers, and I well-attended Adjournment debate, she confused the do not believe we would have them if we had not names of the base port, Faslane, and the maintenance concluded that they were absolutely necessary. I echo dock, Rosyth, to produce Forsyth. Whether that was by the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for design or error, it was very apt, because for many years North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot), who said that we have had Scottish Members of Parliament and we needed two carriers if we were to have them available Portsmouth Members of Parliament yelling “Higher, every day of the year. However, that can be no excuse higher” or “Lower, lower” at successive Secretaries of for poor procurement and inflexible contracts, even for State in debates about where the carriers’ home base vital items. should be. Although I am a fan of Brucie, I am glad My hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East that we can draw a line underneath that and that (Dr Lewis) is absent from our Benches today. Sadly, he Portsmouth will be the carriers’ home port. is attending the funeral of the late Councillor Alan Shotter, his friend and election agent. If he were here, he Mr Arbuthnot: Did my hon. Friend share my alarm might well be arguing that we should lock ourselves into when she saw the headlines about two weeks ago saying a contract for Trident’s replacement, such is his concern that Portsmouth might close down? Did she think that about the matter. I know that he would be pressing the basing the carriers there would make that much less Secretary of State on that matter and joining in the likely, until she decided that the story was something to views expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for do with a football club? Gainsborough (Mr Leigh). My hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East wrote in a recent article that Penny Mordaunt: Over the summer, there have been “time and again, we hear the facile refrain that complex modern headlines about Portsmouth and many other bases, weapons systems are ‘legacy programmes, irrelevant to the threats which has caused great stress for people working in the we face now’.” industries affected, and I am glad that they now have a We have heard that said about the carriers and about clear path and reassurance. I never worry about such Trident during the review. I know that my hon. Friend headlines about Portsmouth, because I know the excellent will continue to make the case for early sign-up to partnership that exists there between the private sector Trident and remind the House why continuous at-sea and the Royal Navy. However, my right hon. Friend is nuclear deterrence is so important, and I will continue absolutely right that the carriers now give us the green to remind the House of the importance of carrier strike. light to develop services further. The arguments that we heard over the summer that carriers would be deployed only in the event of a world Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) war are plain wrong, and ignore the fact that we have (Con): Does my hon. Friend not also recognise that deployed carrier strike force in every humanitarian and Plymouth has a significant role to play in the defence of conflict situation that we care to mention—the Falklands, our country? Making sure that we have an amphibious Bosnia, Kosovo, Sierra Leone, Iraq and Afghanistan. It fleet will be important. has extended Britain’s reach into land-locked countries across the globe. Even when the carrier fleet has not Penny Mordaunt: Absolutely. One great outcome of been pressed into action, its constant presence has the defence review is that all three of our Navy bases— served as a deterrent to those who would harm us and Faslane, included—will have a role in servicing the our interests. I urge the defence team to do all they can RoyalNavyaswegoforward. to plug the gap in the carrier strike force, which some In Portsmouth, we have the work force, the suppliers, defence analysts have said has existed since 2005. the accommodation, the training and the supply chain I want the House to be excited about the new carriers. facilities. It should not be forgotten that we also have I am disappointed about the retirement of the Harrier, the correct weather conditions to enable safe transit to and I note the Secretary of State’s comments on the and from the open sea. As we go forward to discuss the matter. The decommissioning of the Ark Royal is also maintenance of the carriers, I very much wish Rosyth sad. Her battle honours are many, most notably in Iraq the best of luck in securing maintenance work, but a lot in 1993, and they will never be forgotten. However, the will have to be done in Portsmouth because of the QE class carriers will continue her legacy. For those not opportunistic nature of the refit work, which results familiar with those amazing ships, the Ark Royal can fit from the operational pressures on carriers. It also means comfortably on one of their flight decks. They are that we can now progress in generating our own power 1137 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1138 Review Review and enhance our refit and maintenance services. The I agree with the hon. Gentleman on his call for the excellence of that unique partnership between the Royal Government to take a more purple approach. However, Navy and the private sector means not only that Portsmouth in my experience—perhaps he shares it—the biggest will remain the home of the Royal Navy, but that it is problem on occasions for Defence Ministers is inter-service fast becoming the port of choice for navies around the rivalry at chief level on different programmes. He also world. The city should be incredibly proud of that reiterated and repeated the point about a £38 billion achievement. It has nothing to fear from an off-the-shelf black hole. As on many things, this Government believe approach to procurement, such is its excellence in build, that if they repeat something often enough, it will refit and training. become fact, but I have now tabled a question to ask I shall end with an appeal to all hon. Members. Now where that figure comes from. It has been a convenient the SDSR is over, we should continue to keep defence cover for the spending cuts review. high on our agenda. This is the starting point. Much is If we look at last year’s National Audit Office report, yet to be decided and we must ensure that as this we see that the figure on the procurement side could Government put the country back on a financial even only be between £6 billion and £36 billion. The only keel, we continue to make the case for excellence in way to get to the figure of £38 billion is to apply a cash procurement and maintaining defence budgets, for the freeze over the next 10 years. In addition, the figure of benefit of servicemen and servicewomen and our country. £38 billion would apply only if we had to pay for Although we will not reopen the SDSR, we must ensure equipment tomorrow, which people know we do not. that we fully understand the reasons for the decisions That figure has been a convenient cover for some of the that have been taken, such as on the Harrier, better to things that the MOD is implementing. understand what future decisions might be. As we do My right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry so, as I am sure all colleagues will, we would do well to North East (Mr Ainsworth) made a good contribution. remember the Ark Royal’s motto: “Zeal Does Not I thank him for the support he gave me when he was Rest”. Defence Secretary. It is interesting and strange to hear Government Members now thanking and praising him for being such a good Defence Secretary, given that last 5.26 pm summer he was being pilloried by every national newspaper and Conservative Members. However, he has been rightly Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): We have had rehabilitated. He raised issues concerning Afghanistan, a good debate, including 15 contributions from Back including the date of 2015, which was plucked out of Benchers. As one of them said earlier, the debate has thin air by the Prime Minister. It is important that we been well informed. have a conditions-based draw-down from Afghanistan, May I begin by paying tribute to the men and women and it is clear that if, come 2015, we need to retain that of our armed forces and their families? It was a privilege combat role for longer, that ought to be our position. It to work with them as a Minister. May I also say a big would be a huge mistake if the hard work, dedication thanks to the civil servants with whom I worked? They and sacrifice put in so far in order to make progress in have been unfairly targeted as the problem, when in fact Afghanistan was to be jeopardised for purely political they are dedicated individuals without whose work we purposes. That would be wrong. could not project the operations and power that we have My right hon. Friend made an interesting and important in support of our armed forces. May I also put on point about the withdrawal of Harrier and short take-off record the thanks of Labour Members to Sir Jock and vertical landing capacity, which leads to another Stirrup and Bill Jeffrey at the MOD? It was ironic that issue raised by the right hon. Member for North East the Defence Secretary congratulated those two individuals Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot), the hon. Member for when he was the one who basically announced their Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) and my hon. Friend the departure in the Sunday newspapers the week before Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson). I am the official announcement. Those two people were glad that today the latter did not call for a third, fourth committed to the defence of this country, and I put on or fifth carrier, as he normally does. However, he summed record my thanks to them. up the matter quite well: they are called “aircraft carriers”. The hon. Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames) It is in the name! They should have aircraft on them. raised the issue of cadets and the university training Over the past few weeks, the Government have tried squadrons. As a Minister, I had responsibility for those, again to throw mud and confuse the issue by saying that and I met some fantastic individuals who greatly benefited the contract entered into for the carriers was a wicked from those organisations. I put on record my thanks to plot by the last Labour Government, and that it was a the volunteers who work hard—unpaid—in the cadet bad deal. That continued yesterday with this nonsense force throughout the country. They are a large volunteer from the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, when he said army who work to support young people. Those young to the Treasury Select Committee that this was an people not only experience military life, but take that “unusual contract”. It was not an unusual contract at discipline and structure into their lives. all; it was a complex contract. It was exactly what my The hon. Gentleman referred to reserves. I am a little hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West talked disappointed that there will be yet another review of about: it was about restructuring the shipbuilding industry reserves. The previous Government reviewed reserves, in this country to ensure our continuing sovereign capacity. and it would have been interesting to see the implementation However, it is now convenient to demonise the contract of that work. I am also disappointed that there are as for political reasons. yet no terms of reference for the next review. It will be The contract is also supported by BAE Systems. By interesting to see how reserve forces fit into the restructure chance, I have a letter sent by Mr Ian King to the Prime of the Army. Minister when the review was ongoing, pointing out 1139 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1140 Review Review [Mr Kevan Jones] would be interesting to know what has changed in terms of the engineering capability to be able to do that. that the contract represented a long-term restructuring It is clear that the Labour party has been, and is, of the maritime manufacturing capacity in the UK and committed to the nuclear deterrent. It is important that that BAE Systems had already invested about £500 million decisions are taken, not just for the country’s security, of its own shareholder money in it. Clearly, he sent the but for the skill base and confidence that that skill base letter because he was worried about the Government needs in procuring that vital piece of equipment for our cancelling the contract for the second carrier. The final defence needs. paragraph of the letter reiterates the problem with the The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley Government’s approach to the review. Instead of having (Mr Donaldson) paid tribute to the armed forces in an all-encompassing review involving the industry, it Northern Ireland, and I add my thanks to them. When tended to excluded people. He wrote: I made visits as a Minister, I paid tribute to the work of “But I fully stand behind it and would welcome the opportunity, 19 Light Brigade in Afghanistan. The right hon. Gentleman which we have not had, to present this to you” made serious points about the rise of terrorism, which to explain the reasoning. That has been the problem shows the wide spectrum of the defence and security with the review, unlike our approach, which was about issues facing us. I also pay tribute to a member of his involving industry, Opposition parties, academia and family whom I met on several occasions. His brother, others. Instead, we have had a cuts review, which has Lieutenant-Colonel Kingsley Donaldson, makes a great been Treasury-led and has led to some very short-term contribution to the armed forces. He is proud of his and dangerous decisions. brother, although when I first met him he asked me whether I knew his brother, and I said that I had met Mr Davidson: Does my hon. Friend accept that had him once or twice. the second carrier been cancelled, the results would The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney have been the closure of the shipyards and a permanent (Mr Havard) made an interesting point about defence loss of capacity, and Britain would no longer have had industrial strategy. We have been told that it will come the ability to build the Type 26? out in a few weeks, post the review that we have had. It will be interesting to see whether it gels together, having Mr Jones: That is an interesting intervention. I would set the framework already. have to refer to Mr King’s letter, which states that if the My hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) second carrier had been cancelled, the shipbuilding and the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun yards would have closed by 2012, removing all capability Cairns) talked about St Athan. Again, the Government for future naval shipbuilding in this country. We have to are revising and rewriting history. A savings measure in stop the spin and excuse-making, and the Government the defence review suggests that extra savings will be have to start explaining and justifying some of their made by centralising training and with greater use of decisions. electronics. That is exactly is what St Athan is about, so In his usual robust way, the right hon. Member for I do not know how they will achieve that without North East Hampshire, who is Chair of the Defence St Athan. Committee—I was privileged to serve under him—said The hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) rightly that the process of the review was rubbish, which is paid tribute to the Paras in his constituency. I was obviously a technical term. It was rushed, and the pleased to visit Colchester on several occasions. On one Committee made it clear that mistakes will be made, occasion, I threw him out of a plane—unfortunately, and that they will be at the cost of our security and with a parachute attached. However, he is a great supporter defence. of the Colchester garrison, and I pay tribute to its The right hon. Gentleman, the right hon. Member sacrifice and its work. for Gainsborough and the hon. Member for Portsmouth The hon. Member for Salisbury (John Glen) was also North (Penny Mordaunt) referred to the deterrent and trying to rewrite history, when he talked about strategic Nimrod. The revision of history, which is remarkable, is thinking—he was trying not to get in trouble with his that somehow we can take capacity such as Nimrod out Whips. It seems that year zero is now 1997 and that without an explanation of what will replace it to protect nothing happened before. There is a clear point to be our nuclear deterrent. That worried the Secretary of made—a point that was also made by the hon. Member State when he wrote to the Prime Minister stating that for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin)—about strategic cancelling Nimrod would seriously affect the deterrent. thinking, which is important across Government. However, I would like to know what will replace it, and at what I have been at the coal face on occasions, and with the cost. The parliamentary answers that I have received so operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, day-to-day decision far have been uninspiring. making can interfere with the process. Sometimes it is The Trident issue is important. It is clearly a political important to step back, but it is difficult to do that fudge to help the coalition Government stay together, when having to make clear decisions on Iraq and and it is interesting that the Liberal Democrats are Afghanistan. going around trumpeting the fact that they have won My right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East the argument. The fact is that we were accused of (Keith Vaz) apologised for unfortunately being unable moving the main gate on the run-up costs for the to attend this part of the debate. He made important carriers, but that is exactly what the Government have points about Yemen and congratulated the Government done with Trident. The only difference is that when we on establishing the new National Security Committee. considered the matter, there was a question mark about A promise was made in opposition that the NSC would whether the first boat that goes out of service in 2024 have Opposition Members on it, but that promise seems could continue until the new in-service date of 2028. It to have been ditched. It has also been said that the 1141 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1142 Review Review previous Government did not have something like that, In conclusion, my fear is that the dangerous short-term but we did, with the NCIS committee—the committee decision making in this review will be a repeat of the of the National Criminal Intelligence Service—which 1990s, when short-term savings were the mantra rather met weekly under the chairmanship of the Prime Minister. than long-term strategy. Its key issue most weeks was the contributions being 5.45 pm made in Afghanistan. That was important. The Minister for the Armed Forces (Nick Harvey): One issue that was mentioned by the hon. Member This has been an excellent debate—interesting and wide- for Colchester, and which needs to be raised again, is ranging—which is no surprise, as the House contains helicopter capacity in Afghanistan. It is interesting that many Members who are well informed, interested and since the coalition Government have come into being, passionate about defence and national security; while all the equipment problems that we had in Afghanistan many Members’ constituents will be affected by the seem to have ended and everyone is now happy. We were decisions in the strategic defence and security review. criticised heavily by both the hon. Gentleman and the Conservatives when they were in opposition about helicopter The SDSR is underpinned by the new national security capacity. I tabled a question last week to find out why strategy, which presents a picture of Britain’s place in the order for 22 Chinook helicopters had been reduced the world and a full assessment of the challenges we to 12. I consulted my former colleagues last night, face and the opportunities available to us. It is the because the reply that I received in a written answer says first-ever national security strategy that really decides that 22 helicopters were never ordered. That is not true. priorities for action and feeds directly into decisions We ordered 12 helicopters, and then there was a letter of about resources. It was the force driver for the decisions understanding with Boeing for a further 10. I am sure we have made. that that is standard practice, so as to improve price Let me echo the Secretary of State by reinforcing the controls and ensure that the specifications are up to idea of how difficult this has been, particularly in date, so it will be interesting to know what has changed the Ministry of Defence. We have been acutely aware of since, and also whether the unit cost of the 12 helicopters the human impact of the decisions we are making—not being purchased will increase, now that the overall only on jobs and livelihoods, but on the emotional number has been reduced. attachment that people have to certain aspects of defence. Our decision have had to be objective and unsentimental, In his best-selling book, “Cameron on Cameron”, and based on the military advice we have received. We the Prime Minister said that we need simply have not had the luxury of self-indulgence or “a defence review based on our national security, not on Treasury populism. The fiscal deficit is an issue of national guidelines”. security. Without regaining economic strength, we will How hollow that sounds today. In government, we were be unable to sustain in the long term the capabilities keen to ensure the widest possible participation in the required, including military capabilities, to keep our debate about the future defence needs of our country. citizens safe and maintain our influence on the world We included academics, industry and Opposition parties, stage. Every Department has had to make a contribution in full consultation, to try to reach a consensus on to deficit reduction, and the Ministry of Defence has defence, thereby not only ensuring the right posture for been no exception. our future defence needs, but performing the important We still have to live within our means as the deficit is role of supporting our armed forces. Unfortunately, addressed, which means also tackling the unfunded that was binned in May. What we have seen since is a liability in the Defence budget. So the decisions we have Treasury-led cost-cutting review. Industry has been excluded had to make have been necessarily tough and finely from most of the work streams. The Conservative Chair balanced, and it means smaller armed forces as we of the Defence Committee, the right hon. Member for make the transition to the future force structure set out North East Hampshire, has said that for 2020 and beyond. “mistakes will be made and some of them may be serious.” Before I turn to the specific issues raised in the debate As my right hon. Friend the Member for East Renfrewshire today, let me say this: the decisions we have made are (Mr Murphy) said earlier, let us hope that that is not coherent and consistent and will provide us with the true, even though it sounds as if it will be. capabilities we require for the future. The campaign in The SDSR was an opportunity to step back for a Afghanistan has been protected; nothing has been done moment—to learn the lessons of the past decade and to compromise success there. put in place a sustainable posture for our armed forces It was a pleasure to welcome the new shadow Defence and defence. Sadly, that opportunity has been missed. Secretary to his Front-Bench role. I thought he made a As the Defence Secretary himself said, in his unexplainably very fair speech. He welcomed the five-yearly SDSRs leaked letter, the process is looking less like a proper for the future and he specifically acknowledged the up SDSR and more like a “super CSR”. The Conservatives arrows on certain capabilities for the future, including in opposition offered a great deal for our armed forces in cyber-security. He referred, as did some other right at the election. They promised a larger Army, but they hon. and hon. Members, to written parliamentary questions, have cut it. They promised to look at after-hours service showing that many of the details that will flow from the personnel, but one of the first things they did was to strategic defence and security review have yet to be freeze pay and reduce pensions. They promised a strategic worked out. I make no apology for that. It is essential defence review, but they have given us a cuts package that the House should understand the difference between and a review. Even today, we have heard the Defence a strategic review and a detailed plan. The SDSR has Secretary say that some of these Treasury-led proposals established a strategic aim-point and it is absolutely will present us with what he called “calculated risks”—I right to take more time working out, bit by bit, the would say “dangers”—for the future of our country’s details of what this will mean for each and every different defence and security. aspect of defence. 1143 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1144 Review Review [Nick Harvey] Nick Harvey: I cannot say that I had any conversations with the Prime Minister, but discussions between the We heard an excellent speech from the hon. Member Secretary of State and the Prime Minister are the for Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames). He was quite right confidential discussions that they would be expected to to say—I am grateful to him for doing so—that we have have. We are not going to be drawn into that sort of had to make cuts that we would not have wished to discussion at the Dispatch Box. The Prime Minister make. That, unfortunately, is the true scale not only of made a statement with which we are comfortable, and the financial backcloth to the SDSR, but of the legacy which we are making every effort to enact. left by the last Government. He made some interesting The right hon. Gentleman asked about the 2% NATO points about reserves, calling for a fundamental reappraisal figure. Let me make absolutely clear to him that throughout of the way in which we use them. He rightly pointed to the spending period that we have outlined today, we will the much wider use of reservists made in the United remain above NATO’s 2% figure without resorting to States. The US certainly uses them on a far greater the sort of things that NATO includes in its figure, such scale, and as a consequence they are much cheaper than as military pensions. The defence contribution towards the regular forces there. One of the difficulties that we cyber will certainly count towards that, but the efforts must tackle is that our current model for reservists on cyber are cross-governmental. In that sense, I am makes them extraordinarily expensive. We will have to including only the defence contribution. The right hon. find a better and more effective way of using them in Gentleman made some good points about force generation; the future. those issues will be examined in depth in the coming The hon. Gentleman was right to say that the SDSR months. was just the start of transformation. He mentioned the We also heard from the Chairman of the Select permanent secretary’s inaugural speech. I am sure that Committee, the right hon. Member for North East when she spoke of the next planning round, she was Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot), who made criticisms of expecting it to be not the sole means by which reform the process that we had heard before, but thought that would be pushed forward, but simply one among many. the outcome was OK. He asked what “extended readiness” I also had a great deal of sympathy with the hon. meant when applied to the second carrier. Let me make Gentleman’s comments about the Ministry of Defence perfectly clear to him that no decision has been made to being centralised, and about problems with accountability sell it. Further decisions on what we will do with it can and vested interests. I entirely agree with his view that be made several years from now, and will depend on we need a more purple approach. what the security considerations are at the time. The former Secretary of State, the right hon. Member The right hon. Member for Lagan Valley for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth), very fairly (Mr Donaldson), who speaks for the Democratic Unionists, acknowledged the financial backcloth, and said that he rightly paid tribute to the work of the armed forces in thought the review amounted to a fair stab. However, I Northern Ireland over a period of years. He also warned entirely disagree with his suggestion that the 2015 timeline us of the increasing security threat. I do not want to get for exit from Afghanistan was somehow party political, drawn into saying anything more about that, but let me or had something to do with the dynamics of the simply say that it is fully acknowledged. He also made coalition. It was an entirely sensible and rational end points about the regional footprint of our armed forces point to specify, in the light not of only President throughout the United Kingdom. For military purposes, Obama’s stated plans but of President Karzai’s intention we are very keen for the footprint of defence to be felt to achieve full transition of security powers by the next throughout the UK. presidential election. The hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) said There are many different audiences when remarks of that the Navy was being left very thin—I forget the that kind are made. It is essential for public opinion in precise word that he used. We understand that we are ISAF countries to understand, to some extent, the undertaking risk now, but we hope very much that that length of the engagement, for the armed forces to will enable us to make our way to having a bigger and understand it, and for the people of Afghanistan to stronger Navy in the future. We are also retaining the know how long those forces intend to be there. They do ability to reconstitute, if that will be significant or not want foreigners in their country for ever. If the helpful. political process that Members in all parts of the House The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney want to see in Afghanistan, along with the military (Mr Havard) wanted to know more about the future effort, is ever to gain any momentum or reach any details. Detail will emerge in the next few months as we conclusion, it is vital for President Karzai and others to work through the key points. He and a couple of other understand some sort of time scale as well. It seems to Members asked about St Athan. The Metrix project for me that to state, as the Prime Minister did, that by St Athan failed. Unfortunately, it did not come up with 2015 our troops would no longer be involved in a a viable business plan within the deadlines that had combat role on the ground was eminently sensible. It been laid down and the finance could not be found, does not mean that all our troops will be out by then, or although a fair stab had been made. I entirely accept that there will not be an ongoing role for them; it simply that the financial markets are very different now from means that the combat role will not continue beyond what they looked like when Metrix made its bid and that point. embarked on the programme; the world is different today. However, we have to face the unfortunate reality Mr Ainsworth: May I ask the Minister whether the that it failed. Prime Minister consulted either him or the Defence The hon. Member for South West Wiltshire Secretary before he made that statement? If those were (Dr Murrison) rightly said that the military covenant the reasons, he would have done so. needs formalising. That will happen in the next few 1145 Strategic Defence and Security 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Strategic Defence and Security 1146 Review Review months. He also spoke about mental health—a topic The right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith about which he has acquired considerable knowledge. Vaz) asked about Yemen. The equipment he inquired The hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) and several about is being procured at the moment, and we are other Members raised the Nimrod issue. The Secretary working closely with the Yemeni Government with the of State has offered to hold further discussions with the aim of providing that equipment by the end of the year. Opposition Front-Bench team on how we intend to The hon. Member for Glasgow South West bridge that capability gap. (Mr Davidson) wanted to know whether we had had The hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex discussions with the French or the Americans about (Mr Jenkin) spoke of the need for a national strategic their potential use of a carrier fitted with “cats and assessment centre. That is an interesting idea worthy of traps”. Yes, of course we have; we have had lengthy further consideration. The hon. Member for Rutherglen discussions with both of them. He also asked whether and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) asked about the the second carrier would have “cats and traps” fitted. troops coming home from Germany. I simply cannot We can decide that at any point in the future; we have agree that that should have been worked out in every left ourselves the flexibility to do that. last particular before the intention to do it was ever declared, but he did make the good point that people My hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Bob will want to understand what is going to happen, when Russell) rightly spoke up for the brave men and women it will happen and in what order. We will do our best to from the Colchester garrison who are going to Afghanistan. address that in the coming months. An Opposition He champions their cause well, and we all wish them Front-Bench Member made the specific claim that we well in their endeavours. Other Members made constituency had not discussed that with the German Government, points on behalf of Marham and Portsmouth, and I so let me make this perfectly clear: the Federal Government will do my best to keep in touch with them about the have supported the British military presence in Germany developments in their areas. for more than 50 years—it has been a symbol of our The SDSR has been a difficult process, but I think steadfast friendship with Germany—and the Prime Minister people that will recognise that it is the start of the discussed this matter with Chancellor Merkel during transformation of our defence, not the last word. I look the course of the SDSR. forward to many further debates in the House as the details of what it will mean for every different aspect of Mr Kevan Jones rose— defence is worked out in the coming months. Question put and agreed to. Nick Harvey: I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman, as time is running out and he left me rather short. On Resolved, the issue of the troops in Germany, proper letters will That this House has considered the matter of the Strategic be written when we come to make specific moves. Defence and Security Review. 1147 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Simon Robertson 1148

Simon Robertson I consider this to be an outrage. My relationship with Yuuko is a matter solely between myself and the Abu family. It is not a visa Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House requirement of any country that visitors must marry one of their do now adjourn.—(Stephen Crabb.) citizens, in order to be granted a visa. Subsequently to this, I was taken into another room where the 6pm same investigator spoke in Japanese, but a translator was used. At the beginning of the interview, I was told that the investigator was Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): This relatively the judge and his decision was final. I answered all the questions simple debate has been complicated by the fact that it accurately and truthfully, but I noticed on the investigator’s desk has spread across the world, as it involves an international that the decision to refuse my entry had already been written out. airline. I am raising this issue as someone who has for I was told that my request for entry was denied and I was to be more than 30 years acted as a representative for people removed from the country. in many forms of conflict and dispute, many times I was then marched to a bureau de change where it was doing so in times of direct conflict. What I have found demanded that I give the inspector 40,000 Yen. A copy of this during those years is that there are always at least two transaction is included within this letter as proof of this. I was sides to every story. I am here tonight to present one forced to hand over this money and I was marched into a car and side of this story—that of my constituent, Mr Simon then to a cell. I was held in this cell for 24 hours where I was denied food and access to a telephone to call a lawyer or one of Robertson. He is a 38-year-old young man who had my friends. The guards also deliberately deprived me of sleep by visited Japan five times before he went there in February. continually hitting the metal door of the cell and then laughing I wish that I could make part of the case for the about it, for one entire night. Japanese immigration service and for KLM, the airline The following morning, again no food was provided to me and involved, but because they have not given me the relevant at 12:15, I was marched into a car and to Narita Airport. I was information I am hard-pushed to do that. not told where I was going, nor was I permitted to call my friends The case refers to a journey that Mr Robertson made who were extremely worried about me, nor was I allowed to call in February. I shall read from a letter that he sent to my family. I was forced to wait at the gate with the guard standing right over me for over an hour. I found this to be extremely both the Japanese embassy and the Foreign and humiliating.” Commonwealth Office. He stated: “This…should be considered both as an official protest at the Mr Robertson then explains what happened when he unacceptable and unlawful treatment to which I was the victim of, got on the plane. His letter continues: as well as an official report of criminal offences, committed “The KLM Captain had been told by the Narita Border against myself, by those at the Narita Airport Border Agency… Agency that the reason that I had been refused entry to Japan was The incidents to which I refer are as follows: because I had arrived in Japan with the wrong documents. This Recently, I arranged to make a long trip to Japan. I was to stay was a blatant lie. I produced a copy of my travel arrangements in your country for 89 days and while I was there, I was to have and a photocopy of my passport to show the captain and the meetings with numerous individuals as well as seeing some friends purser who both confirmed that my documents were all correct of mine. The trip was to last from 4 February…until 4 May 2010. and in order. They said that my treatment was ‘an outrage’ and Arrangements had been made to hold meetings during that that I should make a formal complaint. I am sure that the KLM period, and these meetings were over various topics, but the main staff will confirm this. business reason was to make preliminary investigations as to Sadly, the guard did not return my passport to the purser of expanding my business operations.” the KLM aircraft and instead had kept hold of it…When I He included the details of his trip in the letter to the landed at Amsterdam, I sought the purser to ask her to return my immigration service. He continued: passport, so that I could clear Dutch customs and fly on to Newcastle. The purser stated that she did not have my passport “I accurately filled out an immigration form, while on the and she sought the captain. The captain did not have my passport aircraft and I arrived at Narita on 5 February….I presented this either and he and the purser confirmed that they had never form along with my passport to the Narita Border Agency. For received it at Narita. unknown reasons, the official queried this information and then took my airline tickets and my passport from me and I was taken A copy of that letter went to the Foreign and to a separate room. Commonwealth Office and the Japanese embassy. While I was there, I was interviewed by another official, who On 9 March, Mr Robertson received a letter from the despite being told by me on numerous occasions in both English FCO saying that it did not have the power to investigate and in Japanese, that my Japanese was poor, insisted in conducting the matter but that it had written to Tokyo requesting this interview solely in Japanese. that an investigation should take place. I also wrote to After a while, I was led into another room, where I was the Japanese embassy on 12 February asking it to investigated by a different inspector. He wished to know my investigate and on 13 April—10 weeks after the original purpose of my visit. I explained very clearly what the purpose was…I pointed to the address of Mr. Junji Abu and his family, letter—I received a letter of reply from the embassy who I was to visit. They were aware that I was coming and they saying that would confirm this to the investigator. He telephoned Mr. Abu “we have already reported this case to the Ministry of Foreign and returned. At this point, his entire tone and manner became Affairs, Japan, and are currently waiting for the result”. extremely hostile. He demanded to know about the relationship between myself and Mr. Abu’s daughter called Yuuko. I correctly On 25 May, I forwarded an e-mail from Mr Robertson stated that I had known…Yuuko…for 17 months, we speak to the new Prime Minister and the new Foreign Secretary everyday and are close. At this point, the questioning became asking them to look into his case and also to try to even more outrageous. The investigator demanded and shouted progress it. In the period between the original letter and over and over: ‘Are you going to marry Yuuko?’ He repeated this 25 May, Mr Robertson had been in regular contact with question six times and on the first five occasions I stated that we had not decided that at that time. On the sixth occasion, I said the FCO, asking what was happening. The e-mail made that this decision was a matter between myself and Yuuko. At this it clear that a Foreign Office official who had been answer, the investigator got angry and stated that he would working with Mr Robertson had originally agreed to oppose my entry to Japan. report the incident as a crime. 1149 Simon Robertson4 NOVEMBER 2010 Simon Robertson 1150

In the interim, Mr Robertson tried to help the FCO There were no details of what that meant, what he had and the Japanese immigration service because he had said or what they had said. Obviously, the embassy was been able to find out the identity of the officer who he saying, “We’re not quite sure that you’re telling lies, but believed had abused him in Japan. He reported that we’re not quite sure that you’re telling the truth, either.” information to the new duty officer with whom he was It was very confusing. dealing, but he was devastated when she told him that In the letter, the embassy made it very clear that, she was dismissing that information. She refused to pass it to the Japanese authorities and said that she was “since the individual remains the responsibility of the carrier, the immigration bureau has no involvement in the not prepared to report the matter as a crime. Surely, process…Mr Robertson’s allegation that he was forced to hand when someone makes a very serious allegation and is over money by immigration officials has no basis in reality.” able to tell an official in the FCO specifically who was responsible, it is reasonable for that person to ask the That is despite the fact that Mr Robertson sent on to the official to pass that information to the Japanese authorities Japanese immigration service a copy of a receipt that and ask them to investigate. Mr Robertson could not had been taken while he was in Narita airport. The believe that the official refused to do that. letter continued, stating that On 4 June, I received an e-mail from Mr Robertson “Mr Robertson’s treatment…prior to removal was entirely the advising me that, sadly, his girlfriend in Japan had died. responsibility of the airline, any inquiries regarding this treatment, the allegation that money was forcibly taken from him or the He said: location of his passport should be made directly to the airline.” “She took her own life, but she was killed by the outrageous intransigence of the Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs and I find that incredible. The Japanese Government are our own Foreign Office”. saying that it is all the airline’s fault, but the airline was On 24 June, I received a letter from the Minister of on Japanese soil. If it did what Mr Robertson said it State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the hon. did, surely the Japanese authorities should go to KLM Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne), who now and say, “What on earth are you doing in our country has responsibility for the far east. On whether the FCO behaving like that?” Perhaps it did not behave like that, should have reported the matter as a crime, he said that but it was the Japanese Government’s responsibility, he was not the responsibility of someone who could not get back into the country to pursue the matter. “sorry for the misunderstanding” about whether it had agreed to report a crime, but On 8 July, I wrote back to the Japanese embassy added: explaining that Mr Robertson challenged both its interpretation of the events and the role played by “we do not agree that we have a duty to report alleged crimes to KLM, with which he had been in constant dialogue. I the local authorities”. asked the embassy for a meeting with KLM in order to I find that amazing. If someone says to a representative sit around a table like adults and talk things through in or an official body of this Government, “We believe a order to see exactly where we were. I expected my crime has taken place against a British citizen,” it is just suggestion to be put forward, and thought it a reasonable good manners, if nothing else, to say to people with thing to do. On 2 August, I got a letter back from the whom we have a strong relationship such as Japan, Japanese embassy, basically reiterating that Japan had which is one of our best allies, “Look, this has been said acted fairly, that the “sole responsibility” for the matter about you in your nation. We believe that this man lay with KLM and that my request for a meeting was believes that it is a crime.” It may well not have been a refused. Again, that was less than helpful. crime, and I shall come on to that, but if Mr Robertson believed that it was, why would the Foreign Office not On 19 August—a date that I should like the House to want to alert the Japanese to that? remember because I shall come back to it—I wrote to KLM asking it for specific details about its role in The Minister also said on 24 June that the Japanese Mr Robertson’s detention and removal, because some authorities had informed him that they believed that very serious things had been said about an airline with a “Mr Robertson was treated in line with their regulations and reputation. Apart from the fact that I wanted to clear international human rights standards.” up the matter on behalf of Mr Robertson, I also wanted The Minister also suggested that Mr Robertson seek to give the airline a chance to stop a Government saying legal advice. So, on 24 June, with reference to a case some pretty disparaging things about it. I made the going back to 6 February, the Foreign Office decided, airline aware that, ultimately, if I could not get a satisfactory “We have been told by the Japanese that everything is response, I would raise the matter, as I am doing, on the okay. Therefore, you should forget about it or take Floor of the House. advice from a lawyer.” To me, that is effectively the Foreign Office trying to wash its hands of the matter I asked KLM specifically how long Mr Robertson’s and move on. passport was in its possession; exactly what happened to it; whether the airline was told why he was being Interestingly, the Foreign Office knew that information refused admission to the country; whether his passport before Mr Robertson did, because he did not receive the was handed over; and when. On the same date, I again letter until a day later, when the Japanese confirmed wrote to the Japanese embassy asking for specific details what we had learned from the Foreign Office—that they that would expand on the denial of entry letter and on believed that he was treated properly. I asked the embassy what went on, including the timing of events. I also to show me exactly what happened, and in the paperwork asked about its statement, it included a flowchart of what should have happened. There was also a document on why he was refused “your application is not found not to be false.” entry. I shall read it out very slowly, because it states: What did that mean? What was said? What was done? “Your statement concerning activities to be engaged in Japan What went on in that room? We wanted to gain a view in your application is not found not to be false.” of events. 1151 Simon Robertson4 NOVEMBER 2010 Simon Robertson 1152

[Mr David Anderson] making it up. Because they refused to meet me, I have no choice but to carry on believing that what I am being I again asked to have a meeting, because that would told is the truth. have been a sensible thing to do. On the same day, I As I said, Simon has been in touch with Amnesty wrote to the Foreign Office expressing the concerns and International, which has produced a report. I am also uncertainties about the whereabouts of Mr Robertson’s led to believe that both the United Nations and the US passport; nobody seemed to know where it was. On State Department have expressed concerns about some 3 September, I received a letter from the embassy saying, of the things that have happened to their citizens at the “We are unable”—and, I believe, unwilling— hands of the Japanese immigration authorities. “to provide any further information…we are unable to respond to Is this all in the mind of a young man who is clearly any further request for a meeting or any further questions concerning his removal.” suffering physically and mentally from the ordeal? I do not believe so, but presumably the Japanese and KLM The Japanese embassy was saying to me that it did not do. The Foreign Office said that the Japanese have said want to talk anymore and it believed that it had gone that they acted properly. Unless the Minister tells me far enough. It was refusing to talk to a Member of the something different tonight, I will have to accept the House. How it has treated Mr Robertson is not right, fact that it believes the same thing. and it is also not right to have treated me in that way—not as an individual, but as somebody trying to The Foreign Office has a duty of care to Mr Robertson work on behalf of my constituents. I would suggest that and a duty of loyalty to our relationship with Japan. I the same would apply to the other 649 Members. have had a strong relationship with the country for a number of years. In the north-east of England, we are In October, I again wrote to the Japanese asking happy that Japanese industry has come into our part of them please to consider the position and try to give the world and played a tremendous role in manufacturing. more specifics. I wanted to avoid bringing this debate to I want us to continue to have a good relationship with the House if at all possible; I wanted to resolve the Japan and I believe that the Japanese Government matter in a sensible, adult way. I also advised them in would not be happy if such behaviour was going on the interim that I had been told by Mr Robertson that without their cognisance. he had been approached by Amnesty International, which had said that his case was not unique. In 2002, it I hope that between us we can get to the bottom of produced a report that pointed out that this sort of this situation. I hope that in his response the Minister behaviour had been going on in Japan for some time. I will agree to meet me and, if possible, to get people have no proof that that is the case, but Amnesty from the Japanese embassy to come and speak to me International tells me and Mr Robertson that that is and him—or his colleague—and to get KLM involved. exactly what is happening. Let us sit around the table like adults and try to resolve this matter. At the end of the day, I am trying to On the same day, I wrote to the Foreign Office to ask represent my constituent in the best way I can. I should it to ask the Japanese to meet me and, if possible, not have had to do this tonight; the matter should have Mr Robertson. On 16 September, I received a letter been resolved much earlier. from the Foreign Office explaining its view of where the passport had been. On 19 August I had written to 6.20 pm KLM; on 14 October I got a letter from the company explaining where it thought the passport had been. To The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign put it mildly, the two letters show a degree of confusion. and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Henry Bellingham): I The final paragraph of the KLM letter reads: begin by congratulating the hon. Member for Blaydon “Mr. Robertson’s passport was incorrectly added to a special (Mr Anderson) on securing this debate. His persistence envelope dedicated to storing copies of travel documentation…This in following this complex and difficult case is an example envelope should normally not contain original passports and of how he puts the welfare of his constituents at the unfortunately it was not examined until a later date.” forefront of everything he does. I had asked the company for specific time scales, and It is clear that his constituent, Mr Robertson, is both the letter said: angry and frustrated at the way he has been treated and “Mr. Robertson’s passport was then handed over to the UK is not satisfied with the explanations that have been Immigration…who advised it would be sent to the UK.” subsequently offered. I thought it would be worth setting No time scales were given and there was no record of out what the FCO has done so far to assist Mr Robertson exactly what happened. There was massive confusion in bringing some form of closure to this difficult situation. from all concerned. I hope it gives some assurances to the hon. Gentleman The case has made me face a number of possibilities. that the FCO has done all it can in this case. First, Mr Robertson is telling the complete truth and There are two separate but related issues. The first is someone in Japan or at KLM is refusing to address the treatment Mr Robertson received from immigration these matters, which include allegations of physical officials at Narita airport and the second is the difficulty abuse, imprisonment, verbal abuse, racism, extortion, he encountered in locating his passport following his deliberately or accidentally withholding a passport, and deportation. Let me deal with each in turn, explaining possibly—at least, partly—some responsibility for the the action that consular officials have taken in each suicide of a young woman. instance. On the other hand, Simon’s claims could be completely The first issue concerns what happened at Narita. As or partially untrue. I have to consider that possibility the hon. Gentleman is aware, Mr Robertson has been in because, as I said, I have only his side of the story—I regular contact with consular staff in the FCO following have never had the chance to sit down with the authorities his deportation from Japan in February. He requested and KLM and ask why they believed that this man was that we raise with the Japanese authorities his mistreatment 1153 Simon Robertson4 NOVEMBER 2010 Simon Robertson 1154 by immigration officials at Narita. As the hon. Gentleman support him in this matter. Consular staff strive to knows, the FCO takes allegations of mistreatment of provide a consistent, professional service to all British British nationals very seriously and will always raise nationals in accordance with our policies. them with the appropriate authorities when asked to do so. Our embassy in Japan wrote to the Japanese Ministry Mr Anderson: May I refer the Minister to the specific of Foreign Affairs in March requesting that an investigation point about Mr Robertson identifying the person he be carried out into the treatment that Mr Robertson believed was responsible for the abuse, and the decision was subjected to. by the Foreign Office member of staff not to report that A response was received on 2 May stating that to the Japanese? Surely that should have happened. Mr Robertson was treated in line with procedures set out in Japan’s immigration and refugee recognition law. Mr Bellingham: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman I must say that the two-month delay seems unacceptable for raising that point. We will certainly pursue anything and was inordinately long. The response also advised that he has raised in this debate that is new and of that Mr Robertson was treated in accordance with relevance. I will write to him on that specific point. international human rights standards. The Ministry of The second issue is the retrieval of the passport. I can Foreign Affairs also explained that when a foreign understand Mr Robertson’s additional concerns in this national is refused entry to Japan, the airline, as carrier, regard. I understand that when the notice of deportation is responsible for deporting that person. I understand order was passed to KLM officials confirming that that a notice of deportation order was passed to KLM Mr Robertson was under their custody, his passport officials confirming that Mr Robertson was under their was handed over to KLM officials, and the Japanese custody and that they were responsible for ensuring that immigration authorities’ involvement ceased at that point. he left the country. As the hon. Gentleman knows, consular staff in Tokyo I can appreciate Mr Robertson’s frustrations about raised this with Japanese immigration officials and with the length of time it took for us to receive a response KLM airlines in Amsterdam. On 25 May, Mr Robertson’s from the Japanese authorities and his concerns that the passport was found at KLM offices in Schiphol airport information received did not explain the reasons behind in Amsterdam, and it was subsequently returned to the his deportation. As the hon. Gentleman is aware, consular Identity and Passport Service in the UK. staff raised Mr Robertson’s case within three days of his As the hon. Gentleman is aware, Mr Robertson’s bringing it to our attention and they pressed the Japanese passport was cancelled on 8 February. The UK Border authorities for a response on four separate occasions Agency and Interpol were subsequently notified that after our initial letter in March. his passport was no longer a valid travel document and that all appropriate steps were taken to ensure that his I am aware that Mr Robertson was unhappy with the missing passport was not misused. Although the KLM response received from the Japanese authorities and flight captain and crew on the return flight were incredibly asked that the FCO carry out an independent investigation. courteous and helpful to Mr Robertson, I am not At Mr Robertson’s request, consular staff approached impressed with the follow-up action they took, and the Japanese authorities for further information on the there are certainly some points that need addressing. reasons why he was refused entry. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs would not divulge specific details of I thank the hon. Gentleman for bringing Mr Robertson’s individual cases to our consular staff on the grounds situation to the attention of the House. Having introduced that they are a third party. a number of Adjournment debates on behalf of constituents over the years, I know first-hand that a Back Bencher’s As the hon. Gentleman knows, the FCO cannot force highlighting of such cases, thus ensuring that their a foreign Government to respond to our requests, nor is constituents’ concerns are raised and recorded, is incredibly there any legal obligation for them to share information important. with us. The FCO does not have any jurisdiction to carry out investigations overseas, nor can we insist that I have tried to spell out what the FCO has done to the Japanese authorities look into the matter more assist Mr Robertson with his case, although I can thoroughly. appreciate his frustrations at being told there is nothing further we, as an Office, can do to assist him with this I am confident that we explored all possible avenues matter. I am confident that consular staff have done all to obtain this information on Mr Robertson’s behalf they could to bring the matter to a satisfactory conclusion. and I am sorry to say there is nothing the FCO can do Obviously I would not presume to tell Mr Robertson to put pressure on the Japanese authorities to provide what to do, but if there are outstanding issues that he the information to us. Should Mr Robertson wish to wishes to pursue, then I really would encourage him to continue to pursue this matter with the Japanese authorities, consider seeking the assistance of a local independent he should do so with the assistance of a lawyer. I lawyer. understand that the hon. Gentleman and Mr Robertson The hon. Gentleman said a moment ago that he was have been given the contact details of the Japanese keen to have a meeting with me. I have never yet turned immigration bureau with which the hon. Gentleman down a request from a parliamentarian to have a meeting. can pursue this matter. Parliamentarians obviously have the right to raise issues I am aware that Mr Robertson has expressed his on behalf of constituents, and other matters, in the dissatisfaction about the level of assistance he has received House on the Adjournment. When a parliamentarian from consular staff both in London and in Japan, and contacts a Minister to say that he would like to have a his concerns that the assistance he was given differs meeting, that is certainly something that we consider from that provided to other British nationals. I am very seriously. If the hon. Gentleman would like to sorry he feels that way. However, I am confident that come and have a chat with me, or indeed with the our consular staff did all they could to assist and Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, 1155 Simon Robertson4 NOVEMBER 2010 Simon Robertson 1156

[Mr Bellingham] parliamentarian contacts a Minister to request a particular meeting, we will certainly accede to that—these are, my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton Deane after all, requests from parliamentarians in the British (Mr Browne), who is responsible for consular services, House of Commons. I hope that his request for a then of course we will accede to that request; we are meeting with KLM and the Japanese embassy will be more than happy to do so. I know only too well the hon. taken very seriously. Gentleman’s determination and commitment to his Once again, I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising constituents—not just this one particular constituent this matter. If there are any outstanding or additional but all of them. He is a fine example of an MP who is points that I have not covered, I would be more than taking up the case of a constituent and raising it in the happy to write to him in the very near future. House, and I applaud him for doing that. Question put and agreed to. The hon. Gentleman said that he would like us to facilitate a meeting with the Japanese embassy and with 6.29 pm KLM. I cannot do that. However, as I said, when a House adjourned. 335WH 4 NOVEMBER 2010 Work and Pensions (CSR) 336WH

spending goes up, as more people qualify for benefits— Westminster Hall benefits that many feel they have already paid for through national insurance contributions. Thursday 4 November 2010 More than half the benefit spending of the Department goes to people who are over retirement age. The basic state pension and pension credit, for instance, account [MR ANDREW TURNER in the Chair] for 50% or slightly more of the Department’s budget. Generally, the benefits received by retired people are BACKBENCH BUSINESS not being cut, although there will be some cuts in the benefits that they receive, because of the proposed changes in housing benefit and the mobility element of Work and Pensions (CSR) disability living allowance for people in residential care, Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting and possibly the changes in relation to council tax. Perhaps be now adjourned.—(Miss Chloe Smith.) the Minister can explain what those mean in reality, because I have found that quite difficult to grasp. 2.30 pm While I am talking about the council tax proposals, I Miss Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): I am delighted want to point out that they seem to fly in the face of to have been given the opportunity, as Chair of the other things that the Government are doing. I am Select Committee on Work and Pensions, to open the referring to their plans for a universal credit to make the debate, but I should thank the Backbench Business benefits system much simpler and more straightforward, Committee, because this is one of the first Westminster which I would certainly welcome. To devolve payments Hall debates whose subjects have been chosen by that in relation to council tax down to local authorities, Committee. I pay particular tribute to the hon. Member which will all have their own criteria, seems to go for Colchester (Bob Russell) and to my hon. Friend the against the principle that I understand the Government Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green). They are trying to create for the benefits system. did not quite suggest the subject of this afternoon’s Of course, I never let a chance go by to get in my own debate, but they put in suggestions relating to this gripe with regard to people over 65. Someone who subject, and I think that the Backbench Business Committee happens to be my age and is a woman may have started decided that the impact of the comprehensive spending her working life assuming that she would receive her review on the Department for Work and Pensions would basic state pension at 60. Until a few weeks ago, I be a worthy subject for debate. I agree, because that thought that I would receive my basic state pension at Department is to suffer some of the largest cuts of all 65. That has now gone up to 66, and I cannot be alone the Departments, in terms of both the percentage of its in wondering whether, by the time I approach 66, the budget to be cut and the money to be saved. age will be 67 or higher and I will never get the chance The Department is to face a budget cut of £18 billion to retire at all. However, my constituents might make per annum by 2014-15. That is made up of the £11 billion the decision for me sooner than that. announced in the Budget and a further £7 billion announced The result of protecting the elderly from the worst of as part of the CSR proposals. However, the Department the spending cuts is that the vast bulk of the cuts will for Work and Pensions is different from other Departments, fall on those of working age, on families and on people as most of its budget is in the form of money paid who are disabled or ill. For those groups, the cuts are straight to people who qualify for one benefit or another. much harsher and deeper. Where are the Government It is not managing budgets or delivering services as planning to make those cuts? I said that they could other Departments are. Much of its money ends up in consider four areas, so I shall go through those one by the hands of real people, who spend it in their communities. one. First, they could reduce the amount paid out for The Department’s annually managed expenditure depends certain benefits. The clearest example of that is the on how much money is paid out in benefits, which is proposed cap on housing benefit payments. However, where the large cuts are to be made. all benefits that are presently uprated according to the It is quite easy, if we say it quickly, to cut benefits. We retail prices index will be cut over time, because they are just do not give people any money. That can be a soon to be linked to the consumer prices index, which is tempting thing for Governments to do, but of course usually below the RPI level. That means that the value the people do not go away; they still need the money to of almost all benefits will diminish. live. By my reckoning, there are four ways in which it is possible for the Department to cut the annually managed Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): Does my expenditure. It can reduce the amount that is paid out hon. Friend agree that there is interesting research in for certain benefits. It can change the criteria to narrow that regard? Conducted for the Joseph Rowntree the number of people who qualify for a particular Foundation, it suggests that linking benefits to CPI will benefit. It can time-limit how long a person can qualify reduce by £1 a year the value of the incomes of families for a benefit. It can abolish a benefit completely. If we on safety-net benefits. For a person on jobseeker’s allowance, look at the proposals in the Budget and in the CSR, we for example, that will mean a loss of £10 over 10 years, see that the Government are doing a bit of all four of representing between 15 and 20% of their income. those things. It is worth remembering that the cuts are being made Miss Begg: I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention. against a backdrop of rising unemployment as other Certainly I recognise the 15% figure. We are not talking cuts in the numbers of people employed in the public only about benefits for those of working age. I was briefed sector take effect, and it is during times of high this morning that if occupational pensions—both private unemployment that the Department for Work and Pensions and public pensions—are to be linked to CPI, the figure 337WH Work and Pensions (CSR)4 NOVEMBER 2010 Work and Pensions (CSR) 338WH

[Miss Begg] of them might be in work—their care needs might require them to be in a residential home, but they might have of 15% is not unrealistic. In fact, people on an average work or go out daily to day centres or whatever. Without occupational pension could lose the equivalent of three the DLA, they would not be able to get out of the confines years’ worth of their pension if they were to live for the of the residential home. Sometimes there is a perception average time from retirement, which is 24 years. that someone who lives in a residential home is elderly The switch from RPI to CPI will, in the long term, and not able to lead a fulfilling life, but nothing could mean that the amount of money that people on benefits be further from the truth. I would welcome some receive is reduced. Let me explain what I find particularly clarification from the Minister on that point. perverse about the housing benefit changes. The difference Probably the best example of the Government’s changing between RPI and CPI is that CPI does not take account the criteria to exclude previous claimants is the move of housing costs. Again, perhaps the Minister can explain from incapacity benefit to employment and support the rationale for why the CPI measure is being used for allowance. This migration was always on the cards—it housing benefit when it does not take into account was introduced by the previous Government—but I get housing inflation, which runs at a higher level than a sense that some of it is being accelerated. The other consumer inflation. thing that is different is the numbers involved. The As my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and number of those whom the previous Government thought Urmston suggested, the change in uprating will also might lose out as a result of the migration appears to be affect levels of child benefit, income support, jobseeker’s quite different in reality, certainly in regard to the new allowance and incapacity benefit, as well as the employment benefits. At the moment, we do not know the actual and support allowance and the carer’s allowance. The figures for the number of people presently receiving IB value of all the benefits in payment will diminish with who will no longer qualify for the new employment and the changing of the linking rules or the indexation to support allowance. The first trials of the migration are which they are subject. taking place in Aberdeen and Burnley, and it will be at least a couple of months before we have any robust There will also be reductions in what can be claimed figures and find out how many people are not getting in such things as the child care element of the working through the new gateway. tax credits, as well as changes to the eligibility rules for the working tax credits. Some of those changes would The Government expect somewhere between 30% and also appear to fly in the face of the perfectly correct 40% of IB claimants will not qualify and will therefore cause being espoused by the Government—to ensure end up on jobseeker’s allowance. For those individuals, that those who can work do work. However, some of that is a loss of £20 a week. What makes me doubt the changes might put barriers in the way of getting whether that is the final figure is that we know that the people into work. number of new claimants qualifying for employment and support allowance is much less than the previous The second way that the Department can reduce Government were projecting. While they thought that spending on benefits is by changing the criteria, to 20% might end up on the support element of the ESA, prevent many people who would have previously qualified the figure is much lower, at around 4% to 6%, and it for the benefit from qualifying in future. We shall see looks as though around 60% will not be getting ESA at people who have been on jobseeker’s allowance for a all, because either they have dropped out of the system year losing 10% of their housing benefit, or people in or they have been awarded jobseeker’s allowance. As residential homes no longer qualifying for the mobility many as 60% of those who are presently on incapacity component of the disability living allowance. I am glad benefit might not qualify for the new ESA, therefore, that it is the Minister responsible for disabled people but, as I said, the trials are going on in Aberdeen and who will be winding up for the Government, because of Burnley, and we will have the figures in a couple of a phrase in the CSR attached to the announcement months’ time. about the mobility component of the DLA for people in residential homes being cut: Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): Does the “where such costs are already met from public funds”. hon. Lady think that the change in those numbers is as Can the Minister explain what that means? a result of a change of Government or of the experience of having run the pilots? Does that phrase mean that some people in residential homes will keep the mobility DLA, if their costs of Miss Begg: The original numbers I gave were those travel and transport, presumably, are not being met projected by the previous Government for new claimants, from public funds? However, I am not aware of any but they did not work out in practice—even for the residential homes that have a travel budget. I am not previous Government. In other words, the work capability aware that public funds are available. Some people in assessment, which is the test acting as the gateway to residential homes might get a taxi card, for instance, but getting the benefit, is turning out to be much tighter like, I suspect, many others, my local authority is tightening than either the previous Government or, I suspect, this its criteria: Aberdeen has decided that someone on the Government were expecting. upper rate mobility DLA does not get a taxi card. The figures are quite different from what the previous Anything that I can think of that might be the provision Government expected. I do not have any evidence to of travel from public funds does not, I think, apply to suggest that the new Government were expecting anything people in residential care. different. However, the reality is that many fewer people On the issue of residential care, it is worth remembering than expected are getting through the gateway of the that, generally, people in residential care who are on the work capability assessment, and they are accessing either mobility DLA will be a younger cohort, because people the support element or the work-related element of do not qualify for a DLA once they are over 65. Many the ESA. 339WH Work and Pensions (CSR)4 NOVEMBER 2010 Work and Pensions (CSR) 340WH

There has been a lot of criticism of, and a lot of will get the benefit for only one year unless their household research has been done by organisations such as Citizens income is below the qualifying level for income support. Advice—nationally and in Scotland—about the operation That poses the question of how much the Government of the work capability assessment. At the moment, I am want to continue with the contributory principle. Already, not sure that it, as an assessment tool intended to look people receive unemployment benefit, or jobseeker’s at employability, is very effective in determining who is allowance, for only six months, and the contributory fit for work and who is not. element of ESA is to last only for a year, yet they will I was not going to go into the issue, because it is have worked all their lives thinking that was why they probably a debate for another day, but part of the were paying national insurance. problem is that illness and disability are being mixed up. Lone parents will qualify for income support only if So, people who are ill at the moment are being declared they have a child under the age of five. After that, they fully fit for work when, clearly, they cannot work—but will be moved to JSA. If they do not get a job within a that is not to say that they would not be able to work in year, they will lose 10% of their housing benefit. I have the future. The assessment also does not take into been told by several Ministers that the Work programme account the employability of an individual—because will result in people being helped back into work. the end of the whole process is to get people into work, However, the lone parent whose youngest child has if they are not employable and employers will not turned five will not go into the Work programme for a employ them, then the process will have failed. year. That is when lone parents are to lose part of their Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con) rose— housing benefit. Here we have an individual who has done everything Kate Green rose— that the Government have asked of her, or him. Such Miss Begg: I give way to the hon. Member for Stroud people will have turned up to all the work-related activities (Neil Carmichael). and may have moved house to find somewhere cheaper so that they are at the 30th percentile in the housing Neil Carmichael: Thank you. Will the hon. Lady benefit changes. They will have done everything that the welcome, when it comes, the report of Professor Malcolm Government have asked of them, but in these economic Harrington on the work capability assessment? He was times they simply cannot find a job. It is not that they appointed by the Secretary of State for Work and have not tried. They will have been to lots of interviews, Pensions in the summer, and he will be reporting shortly. but not managed to find a job. Even then, they will still She might find some good news in the report, in the lose their benefits. context of what she is saying. That is a fundamental change to our welfare system. Miss Begg: I certainly hope so. I was not intending to Sanctions and taking benefits from people has always go into the WCA and its faults, but the hon. Gentleman been linked to negative behaviour—the individual not tempts me. I am looking forward to seeing the report by doing what the Government ask of them. The worrying Professor Harrington. However, there is concern that message that the Government may be sending out is by the time he reports, whether at the end of this month that even if people do the right thing they could still be or the beginning of next month, the trial in Aberdeen in danger of losing part of their benefit. and Burnley will be coming to an end, and there will not be a lot of time to change things. There might be time to Kate Green: My hon. Friend is absolutely correct to change the procedure, but not to put in place any major say that there is confusion, with people doing the right changes in how the work capability assessments are thing but still facing sanctions. Does she agree that it is carried out before the full roll-out begins in March or illogical to sanction one benefit in respect of behaviours April next year. The volumes will be quite large and it that are desired in connection with participation in the will be interesting to find out, in Aberdeen in particular, labour market but that are covered by other benefits—in whether Atos Healthcare can manage the volumes that this case, the jobseeker’s allowance—and with no suggestion will be coming through. It is a big process, but there are that the individual will necessarily be facing a sanction? still some fundamental flaws in how the work capability assessment is in operation. Miss Begg: My hon. Friend is absolutely right; the Does my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and issue seems to arise particularly with sanctions on housing Urmston want to intervene? benefit. When giving evidence to the Select Committee yesterday, Lord Freud suggested that sanctions on housing Kate Green: No—the hon. Gentleman for Stroud benefit would follow people wherever they went. The asked the same question. only way for them to get rid of the sanction would be to Miss Begg: That leads me to the third way in which find a job, but some might simply not be able to do so. It the Government are planning to cut the benefits bill: could depend on where people live, as in some areas it is limiting how long a person can be on a particular difficult to find a job. benefit. Even if a person is successful in being assessed as only partially fit for work, and qualifies for the Mr Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): I work-related activity part of the employment support am pleased to hear that the hon. Lady will not be retiring. allowance or ESA—it gets no easier to say, but I do not It is good news for our Select Committee, as she is an know another way of doing it but to use acronyms or to excellent Chairman. What is her take on the fact that, give the full title—the CSR proposes that they will for the first time, we are to have a really focused Work qualify for the contributory element for only a year. programme and a universal credit? That will remove That means that people who have worked all their lives, many of the problems with withdrawal rates that the and paid their national insurance contributions in the Committee highlighted in the past. Of course it is an hope that they will act as an insurance against ill health, expensive thing to do, but it is the right thing to do. Is it 341WH Work and Pensions (CSR)4 NOVEMBER 2010 Work and Pensions (CSR) 342WH

[Mr Oliver Heald] us the concept that benefits can only ever increase is philosophically difficult? For instance, in my constituency not right to praise the Government for doing that rather of Gloucester 10,000 jobs in the private sector were lost than concentrating on the cost savings that need to be during the five or six years between 2004 and 2009, made to make it affordable? wages went down in many companies and people often worked fewer hours and fewer days to enable companies Miss Begg: I shall call the hon. Gentleman my hon. not to cut jobs. Charities prefer to see housing benefit Friend, as he is a member of the Select Committee. I linked to RPI rather than CPI, but RPI went down shall deal with the universal credit in a moment. However, sharply in 2008-09. Does the hon. Lady not agree that, my hon. Friend is right about the Work programme. in that situation, benefits paid from taxpayer revenue The point is that the Work programme does not kick have to be tailored according to how much is available— in until people have been out of work for year, unless they have come through the incapacity benefit and Mr Andrew Turner (in the Chair): Order. Interventions employment and support allowance route or unless should be relatively brief. they are young and unemployed, when they will come into the Work programme after six months. The sanction Richard Graham: I apologise, Mr Turner. Does the will kick in before the individual has had the very hon. Lady agree that in this situation, whichever party expensive help that we hope the Work programme will was in power, it would be incumbent on the Government rightly provide. It is a combination of there possibly not to find ways of reducing the ever-increasing benefits being a job and there not being any specialist help. Even bill? if the youngest child has just turned five, lone parents might have been out of the workplace for 20 years Miss Begg: There is no dispute about the fact that we looking after the older children. They will need extra would like to see the benefit bill reduced. The best way help, but they will not get it because the Work programme of doing that is to get those who can work into jobs so does not kick in until the year is up. that they do not need benefits on which to live. As for pensioners, the Government, with their triple lock, have Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) taken the decision that they do not want to see them (LD): All Liberal Democrats support the Work getting less benefit. That is partly why the cuts have programme—it is focused on the need to do things—and fallen so heavily on working-age people. The Government everyone understands incentives to get people into work have protected benefits and increases in benefits for and out of the benefit trap. However, I and many of my those who are on the basic state pension and other colleagues share the hon. Lady’s concern about there related benefits. They have made a value judgment and being an absolute rule that when people have been out decided that some people deserve increases in their of work for a certain time they will lose a certain part of benefits while others do not. their income, through no fault of their own and irrespective Let us not forget the bigger economic argument. Poor of the job market in their area. It is too absolute, too people will spend their benefits in the local community. draconian and too firm. I hope that the hon. Lady’s Problems can arise if benefits are cut: the money going measured argument about how it will have more impact into the local economy drops, jobs are lost and shops on some than on others, together with the arguments close. Cuts will cause problems in the local economy. put by my colleagues and me, will persuade the Government Very often it is the benefits’ pound that keeps many that this is one area that should be revisited in order to things working in some of the poorer communities. find a different answer. There is not an absolute answer as to whether benefits Miss Begg: I echo that point. In many cases, we are should go up or down depending on the economic not arguing about the principle but the detail. wealth of the country, but there is an absolute measure of poverty in which we should not expect people to live. The last way in which the Government can save Sometimes, some of our benefits are at a level that money is to do away with some benefits. This aspect has keeps an individual living in poverty. both positives and negatives, as we heard from my hon. Friend, the hon. Member for North East Hertfordshire (Mr Heald). Extra money has been identified in the Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con): The hon. Lady said CSR, and £2 billion will be set aside over the next four that when benefits are paid to individuals, the money is years for the introduction of a universal credit. That used in the local economy, and that that can somehow will get rid of many benefits, and probably almost all be helpful. I have heard such comments quite often and working-age benefits, which will be subsumed into the they are based, I believe, on an economic fallacy. If the universal credit. That is the right thing to do, and it Government did not make payments—benefits or certainly takes us in the right direction of travel, but as otherwise—the money would not be borrowed by them with all these matters the devil is in the detail. I look in the first place, and those who had lent the money forward to the White Paper, which I hope will give more would have spent it in the economy anyway. Such a detail on how things should work. I hope that, within point is worth making because we should base our the next couple of weeks, the Minister will give us some discussions on the known facts. indication of when it will be published. We are all waiting with bated breath, as it will make sense of some of the Miss Begg: We live in a welfare state and a civilised other things that the Government have been doing. society, and we have benefits that are paid to people who are in work as well as to those who are out of work. Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): Given the hon. One reason why we take such decisions is that we Lady’s approach to the difficult question of restructuring believe that it is bad for a society to have an enormous benefits at a time of economic depression, from which gap between the rich and the poor. That is partly why we are slowly emerging, does she accept that for some of we have our tax and benefit system. 343WH Work and Pensions (CSR)4 NOVEMBER 2010 Work and Pensions (CSR) 344WH

Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): The hon. Lady national debt. However, she misunderstands, I think, is quoting a system that she appears to support, but is it what the Government’s ambition is. The Government not the case that over the past 13 years of the Labour have a grand ambition to help people into work and to Government, in which this type of policy was actively provide incentives for that and the necessary help. encouraged and pursued, the gap between rich and If we think back over the Labour years, one of the poor widened? things that was most disappointing about them was that, at the end of the period, we had 3 million households Miss Begg: The rich have got richer, which I would in which nobody worked. Adults of working age may have thought the hon. Gentleman would welcome. The have lived there, but nobody worked. Many of the poor have also got richer, but the gap is wider because people concerned had never been approached about of what has happened at the top end. There is no doubt working. They had been on benefits for years and had that those who live in poverty have a relatively higher not really had any help to try to get back into work. income than they would have done without the measures That is what this ambition and plan is about. The Work that the previous Government put in place. programme provides something that the Select Committee has been talking about for years—I am glad that the Richard Graham rose— Chairman has welcomed it—which is a personalised service to help people back into work. I agree that there Miss Begg: I had better make some progress. I was are some people who would benefit from having that going to read out a list of other organisations, but I help earlier in their job search than is currently proposed. need to make some progress. I am sure that other The worry is that if we start the system at six months, Members have lots of concerns to voice from organisations we will not get any of the benefits of deflection. The such as Mencap, the Centre for Economic and Social fact is that many people find work in the second six Inclusion and so on. However, I have spoken for longer months of job search. than I meant to. I thought that I had a 10-minute speech, Mr Turner, so I apologise. Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): Does my In conclusion, the cuts in the DWP budget are not hon. Friend have any ideas for jobcentres? They just to bureaucracy. They are far more profound than could take some practical and easy measures before the that. It is the benefits themselves that have been cut. Work programme kicks in to help people get back into The running costs of the Department are small in work. comparison to the costs of benefits paid. The DWP has already stripped £2 billion from its daily expenditure, so Mr Heald: I do have some suggestions. If one talks to it is already quite efficiently run, which is why the big providers—the big companies that provide these cuts have to come from the money paid out to individuals. employment services—young people who are looking None the less, behind the figures that I have mentioned for work and employers, the one thing that they all say are real people leading real lives. Finding £6 a week to is that young people are bad at applying for jobs. When make up the shortfall between the amount received in the future jobs fund was in operation, the employers’ housing benefit and rent costs might not seem a lot to reaction to it was generally quite favourable, but the one us, but it is a huge amount for someone who only point that they almost all made was that the applications receives £65 on JSA. That £65 has to cover all other were poor. If one talks to job providers they will say living expenses, utilities and food. that young people who have been out of work for six Most people would feel the loss of £50 a week towards months will still not have a CV that they can leave with their transport costs. How much more acute is that loss an employer. That is a classic thing that everybody for people who live in residential homes? Such people knows about, and yet young people are not good at it. are to lose the mobility element of their disability living The time has come for the Government to work the allowance. When their total income is only £22 a week way that young people work: to put online simple as a personal allowance, how will they get out and information about writing a CV and how to get into about at all? I have given just two examples of people work. Somehow, we are still missing that vital information. who will be directly affected by the cuts, but there are A lot of research shows that helping a young person many more individuals who will be hit. Whatever Members with a job search early on, with simple information of believe philosophically about what the Government are that sort, is extremely helpful. It can be done through doing, such individuals will have less income as a result jobs clubs, a fantastic big society initiative happening in of these decisions. It is beholden on all of us as politicians many parts of the country. That is just one idea on that to recognise that for some of our constituents, life will subject. be very hard as a result of the decisions in the comprehensive It is refreshing to read Save the Children’s briefing for spending review. Even if Members believe that the this debate. Although I do not agree with everything in Government are doing everything right, they should it, it does something that is a model for an organisation. please remember that some of their constituents will Save the Children, a marvellous organisation, at least have a really hard time in the years to come. starts its briefing with the good news, saying that the Government are doing some things that it strongly 3.6 pm supports. If other organisations that send briefings to MPs were more realistic and acknowledged the good—the Mr Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): intent—and then went on to say what they did not The Chairman of the Select Committee has set out like, they might find that they are more persuasive. I many of the arguments that are regularly deployed notice that the hon. Ladies do not agree. It is important about the sort of cutbacks that are having to be made to be realistic in this debate and not to over-state one’s given the economic situation that this coalition Government case or make dramatic claims that are not borne out by inherited—the largest deficit in the G20 and a doubled the facts. 345WH Work and Pensions (CSR)4 NOVEMBER 2010 Work and Pensions (CSR) 346WH

[Mr Heald] for whom English is not his or her first language, and the person being assessed may not have English as a I want to ask the Minister whether universal credit is first language. Apparently there have been quite a lot of a big bang initiative, where we will have a sudden problems as a result. Will the Minister consider whether launch—with the new system explained to people—or there is a need to look at the question of communication, whether it is proposed to have a transition, where a in London particularly? portfolio of benefits gradually moves in that direction, with the withdrawal rates being lowered and the earnings Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): Although disregards increased. What is the conception behind I do not dispute the point raised by the hon. Gentleman, that process? I do dispute the disparities around the country. In the Turning to the Work programme, I want to make Adjournment debate I had last week, we heard that three points. The first is that at the moment there is a organisations that had taken people to tribunal to appeal patchwork of schemes continuing. We have got half the against assessments in Oxford had had over 90% of country covered by the flexible new deal; we have many them overturned. In Derbyshire, people supported by cities with employment zones; we have the new deal for welfare organisations have a 75% success rate. That disabled people in some places—contracts are just finishing goes to show that the issue is the involvement of welfare on that; the future jobs fund is running for a bit longer, rights organisations rather than a question of minority and so on. It seems that there is a ragged gap in time groups. between the ending of a lot of these programmes and the start of the Work programme. I wonder whether Mr Heald: The hon. Lady makes her point. There is there is any scope for running on some of those schemes, some research, which I do not think has been published or finding ways of employing the people who work for yet, that looks at the eastern region and London. It the big provider companies in that gap. It will obviously comes to the conclusion that the work capability assessments be very disruptive if the Work programme starts with are working far better in the eastern region than in quite a lot of people who have not had the help that London. Talking to providers about why that might be, they would normally have had. Contractors will have to they raise the point that about a third of the population wind down their staffing levels and then crank them in London comes from minority communities. I thought back up again over a two or three-month period. I am the Minister might want to look at that issue. interested to know if the Minister is at least looking at My next point is one I mentioned before about getting the gap. CVs and help to young people early on. I made the The second point I wanted to make is about the work point about going online. I hope that that is something capability assessment, which the Chair of the Select that the Government will look at. Committee mentioned. It is concerning that 40% of With regard to the movement from incapacity benefit people affected are now appealing. That may be expected and employment and support allowance on to jobseeker’s with a system that is starting anew. I think the review is allowance, one issue that needs to be looked at is the very welcome and I hope that it will deal with some of fitness of our work force and the people who are the problems that have been identified. It is excellent moving from one benefit to the other. There is no doubt that there is a panel now, with Paul Farmer from Mind that there are a lot of people who start off with a back on it, which is a very good idea. I wonder whether there condition or possibly stress, and it is not treated quickly is not another problem. I understand that research enough and becomes a chronic condition. I have made shows that in some parts of the country, the system that point in debates such as this for years, and I think it works reasonably well and there are not too many is time that the Department of Health and the DWP problems, but in London there are a lot of appeals and looked more carefully at the issue of fitness. About two a lot of concern is expressed about the way that it years ago, Dame Carol Black produced an excellent works. Part of the problem may be that adequate attention report about fitness and the work force. I know that she has not been paid to the needs of minority communities. is still involved and I hope that it will be possible to build on her work and try to do more in this area, so Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): I agree that we end up with a work force who are fitter. with the hon. Gentleman on that point. I think there are regional disparities in how some of these measures have Miss Begg: Another problem is where employers been brought in, although there are underlying national employ occupational health professionals to assess people, problems. Certainly, in Plymouth I have met women and assess them as not being fit for work, when Atos with terminal cancer who have been sent for interviews has assessed them as fit for work for the work capability in Bristol. Surely, the hon. Gentleman would agree that assessment. That is acting as a barrier very often for that is not right? There is a significant problem outside employers to accept people into the work force. London, and it is not specific to minority communities.

Mr Heald: Yes. These are the two worst examples I Mr Heald: That is right. Another point to make is have heard. One person had terminal cancer, and the that the Department of Health has a major group other attended a provider for a work discussion session working on the issue of fitness, including aspects of with a drip. I think those problems have been ironed out fitness at work. I think that is something that the DWP to some extent. I hope that the review and the panel will should also be involved in. It should be a joint exercise, help. There is possibly an issue about communication and Carol Black’s work should be continued. between the assessors and the people being assessed. I want to make a point about the consumer price Certainly in London, there are quite large minority index, and then a few general remarks. The consumer communities, and I have been told by providers that one price index is the European measure of inflation. There of the problems can be that Atos will have an assessor is no doubt that the retail price index distorts the 347WH Work and Pensions (CSR)4 NOVEMBER 2010 Work and Pensions (CSR) 348WH measure, by including mortgage costs, which are erratic. have continued with private tenants. Scattered throughout I believe that in the longer term CPI is the better my constituency, as well as Westminster and every London measure, and I understand that in Europe there are borough, are considerable numbers of people who have discussions about how to include housing costs in it. been for between 10 and 50 years in private sector Over time CPI will be improved, whereas RPI has been rented accommodation, and who do not want to move. rather erratic over the years, and has often led to poor results. Mr Heald: The hon. Gentleman knows Southwark The overall effect of the changes is to give value for like the back of his hand, and I accept that there are money to the taxpayer. It is an issue of fairness. I know people who have been in the private rented sector for that people say, “Housing and other benefits are being many years, but that is not the overall picture of that cut, and that is unfair on individuals who may have to sector of the market, which is one of shorter-term lets. move or who will have to negotiate with their landlords Of course, the nature of the contracts on those properties for a lower rent.” I understand that argument, but how is short term. can we explain to someone who takes home the average Of course there should not be undue hardship. I wage of £374 a week net that in difficult economic agree with the hon. Members for Hampstead and Kilburn times, when they are hard pressed, it is right to spend (Glenda Jackson) and for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison more than £20,000 a year housing someone in a better Seabeck), and with my hon. Friend the Member for house than they can afford? It is a hard argument to Bermondsey and Old Southwark, about that. That is make. why there is a fund to deal with cases of hardship. The Government have not gone into it saying, “This will be Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab): a harsh regime, with no possible exceptions.” They have One can explain it by pointing out to them that the set aside £140 million to deal with those problems. majority of housing benefit claimants are not living in properties of four bedrooms or more, and that the amount I think that it is wrong to overstate the problems that the Government are presenting as the mean average against the background of the very difficult economic for housing benefit claimants is wildly exaggerated, as I position that the country is in and the need to make am sure the hon. Gentleman knows. cuts—any Government would have had to make cuts. There is a third point, which is that there must be Mr Heald: The hon. Lady will have seen the briefings fairness. We are all in it together, and I think that the from certain organisations; I know she has read them. balance that the Government have achieved is fair. It is She will see in there the examples that are given—a wrong to view what is being done as though the overall family paying £400 a week in rent is a classic example. ambition were to cut back the size of the state. The To someone who takes home £374 a week net, £400 sounds overall ambition is to get people into work. If we do an awful lot of rent. That, of course is the maximum. that, that is how we will cut the welfare bills. I think that, with the economy and the measures that are being Alison Seabeck: A number of the people who currently taken, things are looking quite encouraging. pay those higher rates moved into the areas where they live and into that type of accommodation 20 or 30 years 3.25 pm ago; they have worked in low-paid work. The areas have gentrified over time and housing rents have gone up. Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): I congratulate That is not their fault. Their roots are there, and the the Backbench Business Committee on a continuing expectation from the changes is that those people will series of important debates. I congratulate, too, the be moved out of those areas, which is deeply unfair. hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) and the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) on Mr Heald: I would contest what the hon. Lady says. their role in securing it, as well as the hon. Member for Of course, it is true—I see the hon. Member for Bermondsey Aberdeen South (Miss Begg) on laying out the issues as and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) in his place, and I she did. As she said, behind the statistics are real people have a long connection with his constituency—that and real lives, and there are concerns about many of the there are areas in London that have gentrified and issues. Many hon. Members will have had correspondence changed over time; I agree. However, the sector of the about, for example, the mobility component of disability market that we are discussing—the private rented sector—is living allowance. It will be interesting to hear the Minister’s not the one that the hon. Lady is really talking about. comments, and I hope we shall receive reassurance The private rented sector is the area of the market about some of those things. where people do not stay for 27 years. They move, Although the debate is about the effect of the CSR regularly. It is a sector of the market in which people on the Department for Work and Pensions, I suggest stay for a year or two. Something like 40 per cent. of that, given the bold programme of reform that is being that market is people who have been in their homes for undertaken, it is not practical fully to separate the less than three years. impact of the spending review and the deficit from what Simon Hughes: The hon. Gentleman is right; he knows I accept is theoretically a different question—that of Southwark as I do. However, the pattern is not uniform, reforming benefits for the long term. There is also a and the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison distinction to be drawn between the direct and indirect Seabeck) has a good case. To give one example, just over impacts of the CSR on the DWP. the bridge is a square called West square, where former Among the things that strike those of us who are new Prime Ministers and Cabinet Ministers have lived. However, to the public sector are the crazy names that get bandied some of the houses, which are all privately owned, have about. One is “annually managed expenditure”. It is been lived in by working-class families, who lived there crazy because that is precisely the expenditure that all their lives. They are privately owned and rented, and cannot be managed on an annual basis—at least not 349WH Work and Pensions (CSR)4 NOVEMBER 2010 Work and Pensions (CSR) 350WH

[Damian Hinds] want to join me in paying tribute to the spiritual fathers of these welfare reforms. Of course, I refer to the from within Departments. The key focus of the CSR, Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my right hon. ultimately, is to build a sustainable recovery, and then Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green steady growth, keeping interest rates low, which encourages (Mr Duncan Smith), the Minister of State, Department investment and in turn creates the right atmosphere for for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for job creation. That focus on growth could ultimately Thornbury and Yate (Steve Webb), alongside the Opposition deliver the biggest single impact of the CSR on the bills Members’ own erstwhile colleagues, Mr John Hutton that the DWP must foot; because as the hon. Member and Mr James Purnell. for Aberdeen South said, the best way to bring welfare On pensions, it was the Turner report, which was bills down is for fewer people to be out of work. commissioned by Labour, that was indeed the turning The deficit that the new Government inherited requires point in the debate. Automatic enrolment, increasing economies. I know that the Opposition would like the the rate of growth of the state pension and raising the running up of the deficit to be yesterday’s story, and the retirement age are all changes whose origins came on debate to move on to the cuts and how terrible they are; the watch of the last Government and, of course, enjoyed but they are not different stories. They are two sides of support across the House. The new Government are the same coin. If the Opposition do not like the cuts moving faster and I welcome that. that must be made, fine, but they should tell us the Then there is the case of the retirement age. Sadly but alternative—not “Oh, maybe we could do it a little necessarily, given that there is still increasing life more slowly, or the bankers could pay a bit more” or expectancy—to be clear, increasing life expectancy is talk of 10 or 20%. Let us see the 100%. Where are their itself a good thing, of course—and the triple hurdle for £44 billion of cuts? the formula for the uprating of the state pension, the That is the last party political thing I intend to say. coalition is now finally starting us on what will be a From now on I want to strike a more consensual tone. long road to providing a basic state pension, with less There are four key issues on which the Conservatives reliance on means-testing. and Liberals in the coalition, and Labour—or at least On housing benefit, the 2010 Labour manifesto read: new Labour—find considerable common cause. First, “Housing benefit will be reformed so we do not subsidise with an ageing population, and relatively low levels of people to live in private sector accommodation on rents that retirement savings, too many citizens in our country working families could not afford.” have been facing old age without the security that they As I do not think that I can improve on that sentence, I should be able to look forward to. Secondly, certain will not try to do so. working age benefits have gone out of control—particularly housing benefit, the cost of which has risen from £14 billion Of course, there will be some hard cases and that fact to £21 billion in a decade. is recognised; indeed, it would be foolish to pretend otherwise. No one welcomes the difficult situations that Thirdly, a lazy approach from the state has abandoned some families will find themselves in, and I am also glad too many people, who get reclassified as being unable to the Government have made extra money available in work and therefore—coincidentally, of course—are removed discretionary housing payments. from the headline unemployment statistics, leaving them without practical help, support or encouragement. However, we must also recognise—even if the most extreme projections about what will happen fail to do Finally in my list of four factors, as a nation we have so—that with a change to housing benefit as extensive allowed a benefits system to build up that overall simply as this one, all the economic logic suggests that there does not do enough to incentivise work. Along with will be downward pressure on rents. other factors, that leads to pockets of multigenerational unemployment and homes where children grow up never seeing an adult go out to do a day’s work. Too easily, of Alison Seabeck: I just want to know exactly where the course, those children can then slip into what we used to hon. Gentleman gets his evidence from, because the call “youth unemployment” but now, thanks to another National Landlords Association, residential landlords fantastic rebranding exercise, they are called NEETS—those and London Councils, which is not a Labour body, all “not in education, employment or training”. say that there is no evidence of such a downward pressure, partly because the private rented sector is All of that is happening at a time when policy makers already being squeezed on account of would-be young and business men bemoan their inability to find people home owners who would like to own homes but who to fill their existing vacancies, not only at the highly cannot afford them moving into that sector. There is skilled end but at the low-skilled end. Instead, they have not the evidence that the Government would hope for. been looking and continue to look for people from abroad to fill those vacancies. Damian Hinds: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that These issues are truly pressing because they are long-term intervention and for the opportunity to comment on it. structural issues which are quite apart from the structural I did not talk about evidence from various bodies or deficit, although they have of course contributed to that organisations. I said that “all the economic logic”suggests deficit. that with a change this extensive, there will be downward I am pleased to say that there is less of a partisan pressure on rents—it does suggest that. divide on these issues than one might imagine from reading The Guardian’s Society section since May. As I Mr Heald: According to evidence to the Work and said earlier, I want to strike a bipartisan note in this Pensions Committee from the landlords’ bodies about debate and I am sure that Opposition Members will 30% of landlords would reduce their rents; London want to follow that approach. I know that they will Councils said that about 40% of landlords would reduce 351WH Work and Pensions (CSR)4 NOVEMBER 2010 Work and Pensions (CSR) 352WH rents, and, in discussions in the Select Committee, members The problem is that if we want to change that state of of the Committee were doing their arithmetic on the affairs, mathematically we either have to reduce benefits basis that 50% of landlords would reduce rents. So to levels that just would not be acceptable or withdraw there is a body of evidence that a very significant benefits more slowly as people’s incomes rise. That number of landlords will negotiate lower rents. second route is, of course, much more attractive but it is also extremely expensive, at least in the short term. So I Damian Hinds: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for am delighted that the Government, despite what has clarifying that matter for us. been a very difficult trade-off for them over the summer, I want to turn to the coalition’s reforms of incapacity have managed to find the £2 billion that is necessary to benefit. Of course, the genesis of those reforms also fund the universal credit. As hon. Members know, that began in the last Government’s time in office, when new integrated benefit seeks to simplify the system, Tony Blair managed to tempt Sir David Freud out of improve incentives, smooth transitions into work, reduce retirement and Sir David found a kindred spirit in in-work poverty and cut back on fraud and error. I James Purnell. In May 2009, Mr Purnell said: believe that that £2 billion is money very well spent. “It is very important tor us to provide people with help to get Taken together, the reforms to incapacity arrangements back into work, and to improve the incentives for getting back and the plans to make work pay are, of course, into work. That is why we are re-testing everybody on incapacity complemented by the Work programme, which was also benefit to make sure that they are on the right benefit. That is why referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for North we have tightened the gateway, to make sure that only the right East Hertfordshire. That programme will treat everyone people get on to the benefit, and that is why we will require everybody for whom it is appropriate to have back-to-work as an individual in a very practical way, while continuing support.”—[Official Report, 11 May 2009; Vol. 492, c. 531.] the “Purnellian” principle of using non-state institutions to help people into the world of work and indeed into Again, I am not sure that that description of what needs lasting jobs. to be done can be bettered and so, once again, I will not try to do so. Collectively these measures, enabled by the comprehensive It is right that no targets have been set for the numbers spending review and some of the difficult trade-offs of people who will go into the three different groups, that have to be made, can have an enormous impact on because the programme has to be about identifying the DWP. That is because, as we have said already, the what is right for each individual, whether that is helping single biggest variable factor is the number of people them directly into work, helping them to prepare for the who are in work compared with the number of people world of work or offering them long-term and who are not in work. With these measures, we can unconditional financial support at a rate that will be, of encourage and help many more of our fellow citizens course, higher than the one that pertains today. into work and in so doing we can create a more fulfilling future for them, a more cohesive future for our society Clearly, there are some issues related to the early and a much more sustainable future for our economy. workings of the work capability assessment, as has been outlined by my hon. Friend the Member for North East 3.39 pm Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald) and others, including issues about intermittent conditions and certain mental health Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): I thank the hon. conditions. Of course, it is good that there was a pilot Member for Aberdeen South (Miss Begg) for securing phase, so that these issues can be studied and tackled. I this important debate. I will begin by discussing the know that Ministers are conscious of the need to tackle comprehensive spending review in order to highlight them and I welcome the Harrington review, which was some of the key issues that we are confronting. The first referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud is economic growth. Improving economic growth is one (Neil Carmichael), and the consultation with mental function of the CSR, in terms of overall macro-economic health charities. policy. The second is unemployment; we cannot be The biggest issue of all is ensuring that work pays for satisfied with so many people being unemployed for everybody. It is not a new issue; it has been around for such a long time. Some 1.4 million people have been an awful long time. There is a difficult trade-off between, unemployed for approximately nine out of the past on the one hand, having a decent living standard for 10 years. At the same time, we have been sucking in those who cannot find work and, on the other, incentives labour from other countries. There are some big issues for those who can find work, and if there were a “third for us to confront. hand” it would be about avoiding the sort of sky-high The overall question about the CSR is this. If the marginal withdrawal rates, which are effectively tax Labour party thinks that cuts should be made, it would rates, that create cliff-edges in terms of certain numbers be handy—from our point of view, at least—to have of hours of work in a week or that completely discourage some indication where they might fall. All the ding-dong people from taking on some form of work. Of course, about cuts does not distract anyone from the fact that we must also try to keep the whole system simple and there would have been cuts whether or not the Labour low-cost to administer. So it is an enormous challenge. party won the last general election. Discussing only the Twenty years ago, when I was an undergraduate and CSR’s impact on the Department for Work and Pensions we were talking about these issues, people used to talk is slightly misleading, because we must reform benefits about the 97% effective marginal tax rates at their peak anyway. and sometimes, in extreme cases, rates that were effectively As I said, too many people have been unemployed for more than 100%, once the additional costs of going to too long, and we need to tackle that. As a decent society, work and so on had been factored in. Of course, that we must encourage people to think about how to get back situation existed under a Conservative Government, so to work. A decent society looks after people properly if I am not making a party political point. However, not they need to be looked after and focuses on those who enough has changed since then. need more help rather than those who need less, if any. 353WH Work and Pensions (CSR)4 NOVEMBER 2010 Work and Pensions (CSR) 354WH

Mr Heald: I am following the points that the hon. The key tool for transferring from incapacity benefit Gentleman is making about the most vulnerable people to employment and support allowance is the work and not concentrating only on DWP.One great strength capability assessment, which was introduced in 2008. It of the CSR that is not really about DWP is that tax has some imperfections that we will improve, but it was credits have been increased to help the poorest children introduced by the Labour Government for precisely the and ensure that we do not increase child poverty. That is purpose that we are discussing. That is another important part of the big picture. point to make. The assessment process, as I understand it, takes Neil Carmichael: My hon. Friend the Member for— account of medical conditions, mental problems and so forth and considers carefully how health policy, initiatives Mr Heald: North East Hertfordshire. and solutions are being advanced. It is a fair and relatively flexible tool— Neil Carmichael: Thank you. My hon. Friend is Miss Begg: That is part of the problem; it is not absolutely right. This is much more about the overall flexible or sensitive to different conditions. It is very impact of the CSR. mechanistic. Some of the employability criteria from The changes that this Government are introducing previous assessments for incapacity benefits have been were anticipated in some respects by the last Government. removed, when those are the very issues that need to be It is misleading to say that we are suddenly coming in assessed. Those of us who have examined it feel that with a wild charge to cut expenditure simply because we that is a problem. It does not always assess the right want to, or even because we need to, although we things. As my hon. Friend the Member for North East certainly do. There is a general feeling that changes in Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) pointed out, the wrong the pension benefits arrangements are necessary. A good decisions are being made. People who are clearly not fit example is moving incapacity benefit on to employment to work are being found fit to work and vice versa. That and support allowance. That was not our idea from just is a problem. a few months ago; it was already the direction of travel of the last Government. I will discuss that in a bit, but I Neil Carmichael: I thank the hon. Lady. This might have four points to make. get a bit boring, but I will simply repeat that we look forward to Professor Malcolm Harrington’s report, which The first is that the CSR has certainly propelled I gather is coming soon. changes in the ESA; quite right, too, for the reasons that I have given. Secondly—it is important that we To end on a political point, I note that the shadow make, understand and keep repeating this point—people Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, the right hon. who really need help will not go without help. Severely Member for— [HON.MEMBERS: “Paisley and Renfrewshire disabled people will get appropriate support. It is critical South.”] Thank you. He said on “The Andrew Marr to make that point, because we do not want anybody to Show”that he recognised that the changes were necessary, be unnecessarily alarmed. that the Labour Government would have been interested in that direction of travel and that he did not reject all our proposals out of hand but welcomed a lot of them. Natascha Engel: I was not going to intervene; I am That is the point that we should rest on. Labour’s grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. That is Front-Bench Members recognise the problems that we the big problem. The number of errors being made in are dealing with, understand that people should be the reassessment of people who are on ESA—and now, encouraged and helped to work and recognise the impact also, incapacity benefit—is so high that our worry is that that will undoubtedly have on the CSR. However, that exactly the opposite of what he is describing will as I have stressed throughout my speech, we must give happen. People are being left destitute who are already people a fair and decent chance to fulfil their lives. That vulnerable and poor. That is exactly what we are worried is our view and, I hope, increasingly the view of the about. Labour party.

Neil Carmichael: I thank the hon. Member for—I 3.48 pm will have to learn a few more constituencies. Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to speak, Mr Turner. I Natascha Engel: North East Derbyshire. thank the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Miss Begg) for securing this debate on an important and emotive Neil Carmichael: Thank you. The fact of the matter is subject. I speak as a constituency Member who brings that we are reviewing those processes. I have mentioned to the table constituency observations, not experience Professor Harrington and said that our processes must from the Work and Pensions Committee or in-depth be fair and decent, and that is what the Government are knowledge of the subject. However, I welcome the fact working to ensure. that the Government seem more and more willing to The saving from the changes to the ESA will be take difficult decisions that the previous Government approximately £2 billion, which makes a difference to unfortunately would not take. The comprehensive spending our target of saving money through the CSR. However, review is a vital part of starting to clear up the economic what is critical is helping people to get to work by car crash—those are the only words I can find to introducing a Work programme that delivers and describe the situation—that the new Government have encouraging the voluntary sector to help with CVs and inherited. so forth. It matters that we help people fulfil their lives Today we have seen that when it comes to tackling the by getting work if they want it and can do it; we must difficult issues, Opposition Members prevaricate and recognise that. oppose. They come out with the odd titbit to give us a 355WH Work and Pensions (CSR)4 NOVEMBER 2010 Work and Pensions (CSR) 356WH little taster of what they might think is the right thing to arthritis or conditions that can be quite different on a do, but they never seem to have a plan, or ever look like given day could experience such a situation. What does putting a plan forward. That is getting rather tedious. the Minister propose we do to try to make sure that Overall, the issue is that we have had a steep and assessments are fair for those people? astounding increase in the cost of benefits over the past I would also like to make hon. Members aware that I five years. There has been a 45% increase in the cost of have constituents who are in what I would call the benefits over that time, which means that for every middle ground. They are between being able and unable £3 that the Government spend, £1 is spent on welfare to work, and are on the edge of being able to enter the benefits. We as a country cannot sustain such a situation. workplace. The current system deters those people from Again, that shows how out of control the welfare situation going into the workplace because they do not seem to was under the previous Government—just like the situation have the necessary support to enable them to get a with the Budget deficit, immigration and a number of taster for work, which would encourage them and give other issues that they failed to tackle. them the necessary opportunities. As I have mentioned, thankfully, we have a coalition I welcome the back to Work programme and the that might not always be perfect in its approach, but is package of support that will be offered, particularly the willing to take the necessary decisions to put the country help for people to get back to the workplace. I am back on the right course. I think all hon. Members encouraged by the personalised nature of that programme. would acknowledge that we need to make it very clear We need to ensure that such packages are personal that, as a civilised society, we must provide for those because, as Members from all parties have said, this is who cannot provide for themselves. I do not think not a one-size-fits-all situation. It is extremely important anyone would advocate that as a country, as a Government that we put more of the onus on the back to work and as politicians, we should not support those people providers and that we ensure they are doing the job in our society. properly and in a sustainable way. We can help to do However, we should also strive to reform and arrest a that through payment by results. situation in which many genuine people are trapped in I have been made aware of a particular case from my the system. Such people want to contribute to society, surgery; it involves a very genuine woman who has been to go out to work and make their own way, but through a horrendous experience. She is currently receiving unfortunately they are stifled by the current system. We ESA and wants to go back to work but, in the words of also need to bear in mind—I do not think this has been her specialist, she is not yet in a position to do so. At the mentioned in the debate—that for a very small minority moment, there seems to be no middle ground between of people benefits are a lifestyle choice. A number of ESA or jobseeker’s allowance. I think she has just been colleagues have put it to me—I have heard this comment told that she must choose the JSA route, which means in my constituency—that some people consider that she will receive pretty poor and confusing support to going to claim their benefits is tantamount to turning get back into work. up for their wages. That is not acceptable in a civilised I welcome the announcements made by the Minister society. We must look after the people who should be of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my right looked after, but we cannot afford to allow people to hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris choose not to contribute—unless, of course, they are Grayling), which will, indeed, start getting people back willing to contribute to society in a financial sense for into work. However, I have concerns, particularly for themselves. my constituent, who feels as though she is wading My hon. Friend the Member for North East through treacle trying to get the skills, support and Hertfordshire (Mr Heald) pointed out eloquently that confidence to go back to the workplace. I fear that the many young people are growing up in households where reforms that will come in next year will not be expeditious they have never seen anybody work. That is not a new enough for my constituent. What is the Minister doing phenomenon. There are second and third generations to advise and direct various organisations—Jobcentre of people who have never worked, and young people are Plus and other agencies—on what can be done to help growing up in those households with no role models. such people now, rather than waiting until next year? I They have no one to look up to, copy in life or attach expect that most Members would rather we helped their thoughts to. I understand that there are now people as expeditiously as we can as a Government, around 3 million such households. Again, that situation than waited for legislation to come into force. is totally unsustainable. I now turn to the limits that are being put on benefits. There are people who are genuine losers in our benefit I understand why hon. Members, particularly those in system. I am aware of many constituents with physical London, have concerns about the cap that will be put and mental disabilities, and learning disabilities and on benefits. Many hardworking people in my constituency difficulties who have little chance of ever working. I have said that they would be absolutely overjoyed to would like the Minister to make it clear that those earn £25,000 after tax and spend £20,000 a year on people will definitely be protected under the changes to housing. However, unfortunately, they are not in a the benefit system. We must make sure that we protect position to do so. The decision to put caps on the them if we are to be considered a civilised Government. amount of benefit that people can claim has been We also need to ensure that we make every effort to greeted with some enthusiasm in my constituency. In try to help people on incapacity benefit and ESA, who many ways, such an approach is progressive; although I are rightly being asked to take work capability assessments. take into account the difficulties that some Members We must consider the fact that when people go to the may have, particularly those with London constituencies. assessment their condition might not be taken into Although my constituents have welcomed the account on the particular day they attend. People with announcements, they are not mercenaries, and I do not multiple sclerosis, myalgic encephalomyelitis, rheumatoid think anyone here would profess to be so. My constituents 357WH Work and Pensions (CSR)4 NOVEMBER 2010 Work and Pensions (CSR) 358WH

[Mr Marcus Jones] that we will have some leeway this afternoon to look beyond the rigid parameters of the DWP. That was want to support people to get back into the workplace, certainly already the case when I had to leave the debate but they also want to ensure that, as a Government, we earlier. do not allow the situation to get out of control. My constituents welcome the discretionary housing payments Mr Heald: Does the hon. Lady agree that the increase that will be allowed to go to the poorest in our society. in child tax credit is a vital part of the overall picture? Some Opposition Members have used the politics of Kate Green: That is the kind of point that it is fear around the issue and have talked about social important we recognise in debate. I recognise that the engineering. My theory is that trapping families in a increase in child tax credit is one of a tiny number of financial position where they are totally dependent, and measures, if not the only one, that we have seen so far beholden to politicians who are edging ever closer to from the Government that try to redress some of the taking complete control of individual lives, is social reduction in or withdrawal of financial support elsewhere. engineering of the worst form. Ministers have highlighted the fact that the increase is We must encourage an economy in which we bring significant in ensuring that there is no rise in child the necessary training, jobs and employment to sustain poverty as a result of the measures that have been the people who have become dependent on benefits. proposed overall. I regret such paucity of ambition, as The Government are on the right lines in making sincere the intention is simply not to see child poverty increase. proposals for getting people back into work. It will Previous Labour Governments were criticised—rightly, sometimes be difficult to put those things into practice, I guess—for not achieving as much as they had set out and there will be some anomalies, but I am sure the to do. The proposed increase seems a poor and rather Minister will tell us how they can be ironed out. I limited attempt to move forward, which I very much welcome the moves that have been proposed and sincerely regret. I would welcome hearing from the Minister how hope that they will help people in constituencies such as the Government expect to catch up on the target to mine to move forward from the difficult and prescriptive eradicate child poverty by 2020 when they expect to place where many have found themselves trapped, make no progress at all between now and 2012-13. particularly those who have been unable to source work for many years. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Maria Miller): I want to build on the hon. Lady’s point that the issues of child poverty that the 4pm Government are addressing go well beyond DWP and Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): I start by remind her of the £7 billion investment we have made in thanking you, Mr Turner, and hon. Members present the fairness premium, which is being delivered through for your tolerance in allowing me to resume my participation measures introduced by my right hon. and hon. Friends in the debate. I have been attending a Public Bill Committee in the Department for Education. At the risk of incurring sitting for the past hour. I am sorry to have missed the your wrath, Mr Turner, I remind the hon. Lady that contributions of other Members and encourage them when the Government came into office the figures on to intervene to repeat points that might already have child poverty were deteriorating. What we have done in been made that relate to my remarks. the emergency Budget and the initial spending review I am pleased that the Backbench Business Committee measures is to stop that deterioration and stabilise the selected the subject for debate this afternoon, not only situation. In March, we will be setting out a strategy to because it was partly in response to representations I show how we will take things forward. made to the Committee, but because this set of policy Kate Green: First, let us be absolutely clear about the announcements is one of the most significant that the alleged deterioration in child poverty performance. It coalition Government have made. It will have far-reaching deteriorated in two years, 2005-06 and 2006-07, and the implications, not only financially for families now, but measures that were introduced in the 2008 and 2009 for the philosophy surrounding welfare provision. It is Budgets were already turning that position around. It is beginning to take us into new territory and challenges welcome that the Government have not decided to some of the assumptions and positions that have pertained reverse those measures. I am pleased that they have for the past 60 or 70 years. The debate is an important retained the progressive announcements made by the opportunity to start to talk about that. previous Chancellor, but it is a pity that the new measures It is notable that we have had several debates in this that they have announced will tend to work against that Chamber and on the Floor of the House that speak to progressiveness. concerns right across the House about the implications Secondly, I absolutely take the Minister’s point about of some of the Government’s proposals, particularly in the importance of the spending measures being rolled relation to housing benefit reform. I want to address out by the Department for Education. I regret that some of those points again this afternoon and, inevitably, some of that is moving money around, rather than speak much more widely about the broad range of bringing additional money into educational institutions financial support for families that is provided by the and settings. None the less, there is considerable evidence, welfare system and by the benefits and support programmes as she is well aware because we have discussed it on that are the responsibility of the DWP. many occasions, that any spending on education, health One of the great difficulties when looking at financial or a range of other outcomes for children is hampered if support for households is that it is provided by a number they grow up in households with inadequate income. of Departments. It is difficult to disentangle the implications Income is a prerequisite of the success of other social of one benefit change in one Department’s area of programmes. That is why I am concerned about the responsibility and look at it in isolation when assessing long-term implications of some of the Government’s the overall impact on low-income households. I hope measures in relation to household income. 359WH Work and Pensions (CSR)4 NOVEMBER 2010 Work and Pensions (CSR) 360WH

Let me list some of the Government measures that Another area that I would like to open up for debate will reduce incomes across the piece. We have the freeze and would be interested to hear the Minister’s comments on child benefit, and its removal in cases where an on is how the measures will work against the Government’s individual in the household is in the higher tax band. absolutely correct wish to incentivise people to move We have the freezing of working tax credit. We have an into increased hours of paid work. The first prerequisite increase in the number of hours that a couple are of being able to look for work is a stable income. It is required to work in order to claim working tax credit. hard for people to motivate themselves to go out and We have a reduction in the child care element of the tax look for a job if they are struggling to hold things credit. We have the linking of benefits to the consumer together day to day, and worrying about creditors banging price index. We have the time-limiting of contributory on the door, or whether they can afford to pay the bills, employment and support allowance to a period of keep healthy food in the fridge, keep the house in a 12 months. decent state of repair and keep their clothes clean and We have the removal of the mobility element of laundered. With all those basic needs proving a barrier, disability living allowance for those in residential care. it is difficult to think about going out to look for work. We have the promise of more testing before disability The second thing that is crucial for people looking for living allowance can be accessed. paid employment—we hear this again and again from We have many changes to rules for eligibility for homeless charities—is a stable address. Many of us are housing benefit, including the room cap, the reduction concerned that the impact of the housing benefit changes to the 30th percentile, the removal of the £15 excess, the will be to force people to move, perhaps more than once cut in housing benefit for those on jobseeker’s allowance or twice, as the changes are introduced in waves. In for more than 12 months, changes to non-dependent some cases, lack of a stable address is likely to prove a deductions, which are now to be uprated in line with the barrier to moving into paid work. Clearly, a third CPI, and there will be an increase in the age at which important prerequisite for parents being able to move people are able to come off the single room rent rate. into paid work is having child care in place. We have changes to council tax benefit. We have the Changes to housing benefit will not only disrupt the removal of the health and pregnancy grant, child trust stability of a family’s accommodation but may move funds and the saving gateway. We have the reduction in them further from areas where jobs can actually be funds available for social housing and an overall cap on found, and from the support networks on which they benefits. rely. I am concerned that reducing the element of working I hope that I have not forgotten anything, because tax credit support that is available to help meet child that sounds bad enough. Not all of those policies will care costs will make it more difficult for parents to have an impact on every household, but none the less afford those costs. together they will put many low-income households A number of the measures that the Government have under great financial pressure, and I am very concerned already announced will actually worsen marginal deduction about that. rates. The cuts to working tax credit will worsen the return that people get from paid employment, and the Maria Miller: Will the hon. Lady give way? loss of free school meals for some families who were expecting to receive them from this September, and the increases in VAT and travel costs, will make the decision Kate Green: No, I will not. I also want to highlight to return to work much more economically unattractive the fact that when we look at which households will than the Government might wish. I would be interested particularly feel the brunt of those changes, we see that to hear the Minister’s comments on that. women will bear much of the pain. Women are hit twice as hard as men as a result of the reduction in income Another thing I would like to consider is the support that will result from those changes. the Government will put in place to enable people to move into paid work. We look forward to receiving Women receive 70% of tax credits, 60% of housing details about the single Work programme, which I believe benefit and 94% of child benefit—perhaps unsurprisingly, Members across the House are keen to welcome. Labour because that payment is particularly well targeted at Members in particular see many elements of the single mothers—and 65% will be affected by the changes in Work programme, in so far as we know about it, drawing the rules for savings credit as part of pension credit. on the new deal and the recent flexible new deal. In fact, The disabled are suffering several reductions to their I have been struggling to identify the philosophical benefits: the removal of higher rate disability living differences between the single Work programme and the allowance for those in residential care; the changes to flexible new deal. I would be interested to hear the eligibility for employment support allowance, which my Minister’s comments on that. hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South (Miss Begg) There is potential for more risk being put on providers, highlighted earlier; the impact of the work capability who will be required to perform over the longer term. assessment, which seems to be proving harsher than That may make it more difficult for some smaller providers was acknowledged earlier and harsher than the previous and, in particular, voluntary sector providers to join in or present Governments might have expected; and the with provision of the single Work programme. I know loss of contributory ESA after a year. that Ministers are concerned about that, and I look Families with children in every income decile are forward to hearing the Minister’s comments on it. being hit hard by the changes—harder than households There is perhaps even more alliance than we saw with without kids. I am concerned about the differential the flexible new deal on the so-called black box approach. impact of the changes on different kinds of household My worry about such an approach is whether the most structures, and I would be interested to hear the Minister’s vulnerable will transparently receive appropriate support comments on that. and be properly advocated for in a system where there 361WH Work and Pensions (CSR)4 NOVEMBER 2010 Work and Pensions (CSR) 362WH

[Kate Green] I hope that the design of the universal credit will recognise that there is an issue not just of distribution are conditions, requirements and obligations on them. of income to poorer households but of its distribution Who will negotiate for them if the requirements that are within those households. I want to be sure that we imposed are unreasonably onerous? The black box approach design a credit that does not disadvantage women in the has some merits, obviously, in that it offers flexibility to household in particular by assessing and paying a credit good providers, but how we will ensure that the actions at household level that in practice may not reach her of providers who may put inappropriate pressure on and, therefore, may not be particularly effective in reaching clients to take up unsuitable employment, or to take up her children. unsuitable programmes to prepare them for employment, The intention to introduce real-time calculation of will be transparent and exposed in the single Work entitlement to the universal credit will also mean real-time programme that Ministers intend to introduce? clawing back of benefit overpayments. It would be My final point is about the universal credit, which I exceptionally difficult for low-income families to plan think many Members on the Government Benches have for that, and I would welcome the Minister’s comments. suggested will provide a solution to concerns about the In conclusion, the Secretary of State and the Department measures that are being introduced more immediately. have an ambitious vision, and an extensive range of First, even if the universal credit proves to be the changes will be introduced in the near term in somewhat panacea that we are assured it will be, I am concerned indecent haste, without the implications being clearly about the hardship that will be experienced by households thought through. I am grateful that we have had an now, before it is actually in place. I am not setting out opportunity to raise some of our concerns. As my hon. today to oppose the universal credit by any means, but Friend the Member for Aberdeen South said earlier, it might be helpful, as we are clearly at an early stage in there are real concerns about the devastating impact the Government’s thinking on what it might look like, if that the loss of even a few pounds can have on low-income I highlight some concerns about where care will need to households, and I look forward to the Minister’s response. be taken in its design.

Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): I apologise 4.19 pm for being here for only part of the debate. On the universal credit, does my hon. Friend have any insight Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): I into the logic of how the Government’s announcement thank the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Miss Begg) on, for example, the localisation of council tax benefit—and, for starting our debate today. She has talked about by the way, the 10% cut—fits with the DWP’s approach retiring, and my hon. Friend the Member for North of trying to design a universal credit, but apparently East Hertfordshire (Mr Heald) has mentioned the without that element in it? contribution that she has made on the Select Committee—a contribution that I heartily admire. I hope that she does Kate Green: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. not mind my saying that I hope that she does not need Points raised in favour of the universal credit were that to retire, because across the country she is a role model it would remove administrative complexity and clarify for and an inspiration to disabled people. If, however, people’s entitlements in and out of work. Clearly, where she does feel the need, I am sure that I could find an there is variance across the country in terms of entitlement excellent Conservative candidate in Aberdeen to fill her to help with council tax, we have lost all the advantage spot. The Conservatives do, of course, need more Members of administrative simplicity, and transparency and clarity. of Parliament from Scotland. That is one of the anomalies that I would be interested I welcome the proposals in the comprehensive spending in hearing the Minister address. review for the Department for Work and Pensions and, I would be interested to hear the Minister’s comments in particular, I welcome the Secretary of State’s radical on some of the risks of putting all our eggs in one and strategic look at the support that is given to 20 million basket. That may have the virtue of simplicity, but as we customers, including those who receive benefits and know, administrative systems and Government are not state pensions, those who need help to get work, and famous for smooth running in favour of low-income disabled and older people. The CSR is courageous in claimants. If the universal credit should happen to fall what it has presented, and it is transformational because over, perhaps because of IT difficulty or for other it is about giving people who can work a way to transform reasons, there will be absolutely nothing else coming their lives, build their confidence, feel worth while and into households to carry them through. I very much contribute to their family and to society as a whole. It is hope that the IT will perform smoothly and that there about giving them hope for the future, because the will be no such administrative difficulties, but there are reality is stark. After I deal with this point, I shall move risks. It is important that we hear from Ministers what on to a more positive note. Britain today has 5 million the contingency plan is, because both DWP and Her people claiming out-of-work benefits, one in five households Majesty’s Revenue and Customs have been quite slow entirely dependent on benefits, with no one working, to compensate for difficulties in getting payments through and nearly 1 million people who have never worked. We quickly; for example, emergency payments and social cannot leave people to languish on benefits with no fund payments have not been particularly easy to access opportunities to change their lives for the better, and I when things have gone wrong. believe that all of us in this House, no matter which side From the point of view of low-income households, we are on, are trying to change lives for the better. there is some merit in having payments coming in at The hon. Member for Aberdeen South talked about different times through the month. It assists household the gap between rich and poor, and I sometimes feel budgeting if people know that another chunk of money frustrated by how we approach that. We have to help will be arriving in the next few days. the people at the lower end of the spectrum to get back 363WH Work and Pensions (CSR)4 NOVEMBER 2010 Work and Pensions (CSR) 364WH into work, and to support the people who cannot work. that the answer is yes, and I want to give a couple of However, it is not about penalising people who have examples of how things are currently working, and can achieved something in life. There is something about work in the future. the British culture that means that when we talk about The first example is Reed in Partnership, which I people who have achieved something we have to try to recently visited in Hounslow. The organisation states find fault. To anyone who has gone out there, worked that it seeks to hard, tried to find work and achieved something for themselves and their family, I say, “Well done,” and I “break down barriers to work by giving people the confidence, hope that everyone else does too. skills, and experience they need to find lasting employment; using the most creative and innovative methods in our sector.” I would particularly like to focus on the issue of Since 1998, Reed in Partnership has helped 100,000 getting people back to work and on how the Work people move from welfare into employment, and has programme can support that. There is no doubt that we focused not only on building the skills and confidence need to improve the way in which we help people get of individuals to get back into work, but also on building back into work. According to International Labour partnerships with local businesses that offer the work Organisation figures, we have nearly 2.5 million people opportunities. The organisation has many strong unemployed, which is 7.7% of the economically active partnerships across the business sector. The view of the population. That is below the G7 unemployment rate of chief executive, Chris Melvin, is that the 8.3%, but some of those 2.5 million people are not contributing economically to our society and are being “development of a single, integrated Work Programme represents a dramatic shift in policy and an opportunity for everyone working held back from reaching their full potential. In a YouGov in the employment and skills sector.” poll in July this year, 43% of people who had visited a jobcentre in the previous 12 months said that they were I met the Hounslow branch manager, Shirley Allen, treated as a statistic, with no focus on their individual who talked to me about the organisation’s work with needs. That figure rises to 59% for those in the 55-plus people on health-related benefits, and about some of category, and that is something that we must change. the opportunities it sees for the future. I also talked to some of the individuals who were going though its In my constituency of Brentford and Isleworth in programme and who really did want to find work. They west London, the latest figures from September showed felt that organisations such as Reed were helping them that 2,315 people were claiming jobseeker’s allowance. to build their confidence so that they could go out there That figure was down 10% on the previous year’s, but and change their lives for the better. the number of people who have been claiming jobseeker’s The second example is in the voluntary sector. I allowance for more than a year had increased by 47%. recently met an organisation called Helxx5, which is Being out of work long term is damaging for all concerned. committed to building a mechanism that brings together It is damaging for the taxpayer, because we lose out on business and the community for the benefit of all. The the potential economic contribution of that individual Bridge UK is the charitable arm of Helxx5, and that is and, more importantly, it is damaging for that individual the part of the organisation that I visited. The Bridge themselves because of what it does to them and to their UK has so far focused on using a cross-section of families. unemployed people to renovate disused buildings and Some 60% of people claiming jobseeker’s allowance transform them into a multi-media hub that will bring in my constituency are aged between 25 and 49, and it is business to the area. It has employed locally, in Brentford, that age group that particularly needs help to get back some 100 unemployed people, who have cleared yards into work. Currently, there is a confusing array of and decorated buildings, learning a whole host of skills programmes out there. People who have been claiming along the way. Some of those people come from second jobseeker’s allowance for 12 months must take part in and third-generation benefit households. It was pretty the flexible new deal, which is delivered through Jobcentre hard initially to persuade some of them that there was a Plus by private providers. Some people who do not good reason to get out of bed in the morning, but The receive a job through the FND will possibly move back Bridge UK has done that successfully, and real results on to jobseeker’s allowance. Recent figures provided by are being achieved. the Department for Work and Pensions show that since The ultimate goal for The Bridge UK is to continue the scheme was implemented in 2001, more than 500,000 to work with unemployed people from Jobcentre Plus, of the 2.7 million people leaving the scheme have returned taking them through training modules with a view to to jobseeker’s allowance. We need to simplify things, to them finding a way to stabilise their life, and providing improve the accountability and to focus on results, and the skills base that will allow them to secure future I really believe that the Work programme can do that. work. In effect, it is helping people to cross the bridge from welfare dependency to future employability. What The Work programme is one of the biggest employment makes this work are the leaders of the organisations—in and back-to-Work programmes in the world, and will this case Cain Gerrod. He brings knowledge of coaching, offer targeted, personalised help for people who need it business experience and local contacts, and his former most, sooner rather than later. The programme will be tough-guy ex-Chicago life probably enables him to delivered by experienced organisations in the private communicate with the individuals in the programme. and voluntary sectors, which will be given the freedom When I visited it last week, I found a group with energy to design the right programmes for claimants. However, and creativity in abundance. Its approach works and, in those organisations will be paid by results, and the my view, totally fits with what we are looking for as a Government will pay them only when they get welfare successful part of the Work programme. I also visited claimants back into work, and keep them there. Are National Grid’s programme with offenders in prisons. there people out there who can deliver that? I believe It works with more than 100 organisations and businesses 365WH Work and Pensions (CSR)4 NOVEMBER 2010 Work and Pensions (CSR) 366WH

[Mary Macleod] continuing to claim benefits in the short term, but may, I hope, help them not claim them in the longer term by to create opportunities for offenders and support them finding suitable long-term work. to find work. It gets them into work, then supports and As MPs, we can all persuade businesses and individuals mentors them for two years. in our communities to create and develop mentoring The common theme running through the coalition schemes to support those people who have been long-term Government’s proposals is that they cannot do all this unemployed to get back into work. I hope that we can on their own. Getting people back to work is an example create something good and sustainable with a mentoring of that; we need businesses, charities, the Government, scheme in my constituency. neighbourhoods, families and individuals all to play a In summary, I believe that the Government have part in helping people to get back to work. taken bold and radical steps in addressing welfare reforms There are two areas that I would like to mention: that were long overdue. We will replace a confusing work experience and mentoring. Gaining employment array of support programmes with the Work programme, in this country is dependent on having experience, which which will provide personalised support to get people many people who have been unemployed for some time back to work. The priority will be to ensure that the do not necessarily have. Without experience, they cannot Work programme is delivered in a way that encourages get a job and, without a job, they cannot get experience. the active involvement of strategic companies and third We need to break that cycle by persuading more companies sector organisations, without introducing red tape and to give people work experience. bureaucracy. Beyond the Work programme, we can encourage the building of vital skills by providing more Kate Green: The hon. Lady is right about the importance opportunities for people to volunteer in workplaces to of workplace experience. Employers look for it, and it is gain vital experience to get back into work. I look important in giving confidence to individuals in applying forward to working with businesses in my constituency for jobs. Therefore, is it not regrettable that the future to do just that, and to get more people from welfare into jobs fund, which gave people a sensible amount of work work, so that we change their lives for the better and experience—a minimum of six months—and, crucially, they can go on to create a strong and sustainable future paid them a wage, which is one of the most important themselves and their families. features of feeling that it is a genuine work experience, has been abandoned by the coalition Government? Several hon. Members rose— Mary Macleod: We need to find people sustainable, Mr Andrew Turner (in the Chair): I will call the long-term employment that they can do in future and Front-Bench spokespersons from 4.57. I can see three will support them. We can work with businesses in our Members standing up; I call Richard Graham. local areas. I will be encouraging all the businesses in my constituency to give more people the work experience that will help them to gain future employment. All 4.35 pm Members can do that in their constituencies. Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): Thank you, Mr Turner, I shall try to be brief and build on the points Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab): Does the hon. made by other hon. Members, including, most recently, Lady accept that the future jobs fund has been successful my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth in placing young people in permanent work? Only last (Mary Macleod). I am grateful to the hon. Member for week, I spoke to several employers and young people in Aberdeen South (Miss Begg) for securing the debate on my constituency, and due to being on placements through a topic that is crucial to dealing with our old, weak and the future jobs fund, those young people now have vulnerable, and for all of us who work. The debate is on permanent work. a subject responsible for a third of all Government spending and, therefore, crucial in that sense as well. Mary Macleod: There will be examples of people gaining experience and managing to find work, but the We have been debating the impact of the CSR on the problem is that there have been so many different schemes, work of the Department for Work and Pensions. What not one coherent strategic approach to getting those the CSR did, above all, was endorse a radical change of people into long-term and sustainable work. People direction in that most crucial of Departments. We have have not had the individual support to make that happen, effectively seen a signal to the end of accepting ever which the Work programme will allow. more people with very little motivation to work, people who are not working living in properties that they Work experience is a win-win situation for all concerned; would not be able to afford if they did work, Britain’s the company gets support from individuals for their ever-increasing number of people on incapacity benefits— business and the individuals gain vital work skills. One there are 2.9 million people on a category of benefit barrier that has stood in the way of that in the past is that does not exist anywhere else in Europe—and an that people feared losing their jobseeker’s allowance if ever-increasing proliferation of an array of benefits that they undertook any volunteering work. I received a no one, not even the distinguished hon. Member for letter from a constituent on that. I am pleased that that Streatham (Mr Umunna), can understand. issue has been addressed and that unemployed people are now encouraged to take on work experience voluntarily, without fear of losing their jobseeker’s allowance—as Kate Green: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? long as they are still actively available for and seeking employment at the same time. Therefore, a part-time Richard Graham: I regret that there is no time to work experience assignment will not prevent them from give way. 367WH Work and Pensions (CSR)4 NOVEMBER 2010 Work and Pensions (CSR) 368WH

It will also mean an end to the continuation of the people on the waiting list over the past few weeks. trend for increasing numbers of young people with Thirdly, I am holding an apprenticeship fair for young illnesses and disabilities who do not wish to follow the people, and a seminar on engineering for women. stirring examples of the hon. Member for Aberdeen I would like to hear other ideas from hon. Members South and my hon. Friends the Members for Blackpool from all parties, so that we can go out and do our bit in North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) and for Harlow our constituencies to help people into work. There is an (Robert Halfon), who set strong examples. I do not alternative approach, which I would summarise as that believe that the hon. Member for Aberdeen South wishes of continuing to snipe from the sidelines, saying that us to continue to accept those things. things cannot work, complaining that funding has The radical new approach endorsed by the CSR is a decreased, and effectively letting down young and working- philosophy for a 21st-century welfare state and a complete age people in our constituencies. I believe that we should restructure of benefits, which I describe as getting “back embrace the strategy, hold the Department to account to Beveridge”, under a single universal benefit, a single on the scheme’s implementation as it unravels, and larger basic state pension, which should have been make it a success so that we get our country working introduced by the previous Government years ago, and again. the principle that work always pays and benefits should not exceed the average salary. That amounts to an 4.41 pm ambitious programme that many of us endorse; indeed, Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) all the voluntary organisations that gave evidence to the (LD): It is a pleasure to take part in this debate. I am Select Committee explicitly embraced the goals, if not present almost by accident, because my hon. Friend the the details, of the implementation. As Opposition Members Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott) would normally have said, we are close to consensus on the aims—whatever have been the Liberal Democrat spokesperson. In many the shadow Secretary of State may have said on television ways, she is a greater expert than me. I am afraid that I recently—which is appropriate given the sector with have broken the spell—there would have been women which we are dealing. leading for all three main parties, together with the What differentiates us is simply how much money Chair of the Work and Pensions Committee, the hon. should go to whom, when and where. Those who believe, Member for Aberdeen South (Miss Begg) and the Chair as some hon. Members have indicated today they do, of the Backbench Business Committee, the hon. Member that no benefit should ever change, let alone decrease, for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel). We men are missing the point. If we accept the principle behind would have had to muscle our way in. I apologise for the goals of the direction of the Department for Work that, but I hope that in spite of my lack of technical and Pensions, we much also accept that, to get rid of the expertise, I can none the less share something from my disincentives to work and to make work worth while, experience. Like the hon. Member for Aberdeen South the principle means significant changes to how benefits and my hon. Friend the Member for North East are delivered. Hertfordshire (Mr Heald), I am one of the old hands in The natural corollary to the strategy that we all—or such a debate. most of us—accept is the plan for implementation. We I welcome the Minister to her post, and I endorse now have the plans for changes to housing benefit, what was said earlier. The approach taken by the Secretary testing people on incapacity benefit, new ways of handling of State and the Minister responsible for pensions, my people on jobseeker’s allowance, the introduction of the hon. Friend the Member for Thornbury and Yate (Steve Work programme and the introduction of the single Webb) has shown encouraging, progressive and challenging universal benefit, which, in a sense, is the most important. new thinking that looks to restructure an important Those changes are under way. The Minister and her Department. I welcome the opportunity to look at how colleagues are aware of the sensitivity of individual that will be done. issues that will come up as this great programme is put I speak not only as on old-school Liberal, with Beveridge into place, and I believe that they will respond with and Lloyd George as my political forebears, but as contingency plans and funding if difficulties come up. someone who has lived and represented the inner city We must trust the Minister to do that. for all of my time in this place, and half of my life. I Let me give an example of what can be inspiring from know how important it is to have a strong welfare state, a new approach to work. In Parliament, I employ a but that we must always encourage those who can to woman who is a registered epileptic. She does a fantastic find and stay in good-quality work. job, and there is no reason why many others like her A friend of mine, the deputy head of a primary should not be able to do the same thing. As the programme school in Leeds, once showed me how they were taking unfolds, I believe that we will see many inspiring examples 10-year-olds to do work experience in their final year of coming forth. Therefore, I urge hon. Members from all primary school. More than half the youngsters in that parties to embrace the strategy and work to make it a school had nobody at home who went to work, so a role success. model who worked was missing in their lives. I hope There is much that we can do as individual MPs. For that at the end of the five-year coalition programme, example, I will be doing three things. First, I will hold a difficult though it will be in some areas because of our seminar so that disabled jobseekers can meet employers, financial position, we will have a more equal society, a and employers can hear from those who work successfully, greater percentage of people in work and a higher skill such as my friends the blind receptionist and the deaf base, but that we will still always protect the poor and warehouseman. Secondly, I will continue to encourage the vulnerable from falling through the safety net. my jobcentre to experiment with new ways of helping I commend the single Work programme. I have long people on jobseeker’s allowance to find jobs. One new felt the need to pull together the ways in which people experiment in Gloucestershire has halved the number of are assisted into work. From my constituency experience, 369WH Work and Pensions (CSR)4 NOVEMBER 2010 Work and Pensions (CSR) 370WH

[Simon Hughes] we will ensure that things do not get worse. The Labour Government were disappointing in many social ambitions, I have to say that the system has not been working. As such as those on fuel poverty, child poverty and so on. the Government implement the single Work programme, They let the gap between the rich and poor widen. It is I ask them to take heed of what is stated in the coalition important that we hold on to our ambitions and, as the agreement: Minister said, seek to build on them and take our “We will realign contracts with welfare to work service providers youngsters out of poverty. to reflect more closely the results they achieve in getting people I thought it was understandable and right to try to back into work.” deal with the child benefit issue, although I know that it The disparate contract system has not worked, and is controversial, particularly in the Conservative party. I there have been some poor providers. It has been a understand the difficulties and I do not pretend that mixed scene, and we need a more reliable network of there is a perfect cut-off in terms of the wage level at ways in which people can go into the system. which the benefit is set, or the choice between a one-wage I also commend the ambitious plan for a system of or two-wage family. We can come to different conclusions universal credit. That is what we should aim for. The about that, but there is a good case for saying that system has seemed complicated, and if it is complicated people on high incomes should not get the same level of for us and the Department, it will be doubly complicated universal benefits as everybody else. I understand the for people who have to navigate themselves through it logic behind the argument for universal benefits, but as users, often during other pressures in their lives when hard choices have to be made and budgets saved, as well. everybody must share the responsibility. From my experience, the “tell us once” initiative, is I am glad that we will have permanent cold weather beginning to work. That is when someone reports a payments, rather than the rabbit-out-of-a-hat payments death—a bereavement—and all the systems of government that we had under the Labour Government, when if we are notified. That approach needs to be expanded at were lucky one year, there was an announcement. That central and local government level so that people can change is positive. feed into the system. I am pleased that there will be additional money for I am not in the Chamber to give a eulogy or a set of youngsters as part of the pupil premium. That scheme plaudits, because there are one or two things that the crosses Departments in relevance, and means that poor Government should take on board and improve. However, and disadvantaged youngsters will be better supported some things are really encouraging, as was the speech when they are under five, as well as when they go to by the hon. Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham). primary school. The first point in the relevant part of the Liberal I have a couple of concerns, which I flagged up with Democrat manifesto is immediately to restore the link the Deputy Prime Minister and this morning in the between the basic state pension and earnings: Department with my hon. Friend the Member for “We will uprate the state pension annually by whichever is the Thornbury and Yate and Lord Freud. As I pointed out higher of growth in earnings, growth in prices or 2.5 per cent.” in an intervention on the hon. Member for Aberdeen South, I want the Department to look again at future One of the first announcements made in the budget and legislation relating to the 10% automatic cut in jobseeker’s reflected in the comprehensive spending review—proving allowance after one year of unemployment. That decision that the coalition is a partnership and that both parties is not sustainable for some people. I understand the contribute—was that pensions will be linked to earnings incentive argument, but there are some areas—they again. That is welcome because it is an important may be very different from my constituency—where subject and one of the biggest issues that pensioners there are few jobs and people have to travel a long way have raised with me in Parliament ever since the link to find them. There are no opportunities, however hard was broken under Mrs Thatcher’s Government. people try. To say that there should be a reduction in the It is important that we are moving towards equality benefit seems harsh, and I hope that the Government in pension age, as mentioned by the hon. Member for will revisit that. Aberdeen South, but it is right for that limit to be set at I shall make one other substantive point before leaving a higher level. Frighteningly, I heard the other day that the Minister with a final thought or two. There may be a average life expectancy for men is now 88. That is moment for another colleague to intervene. For me, the extremely disturbing in many respects, although of course real issue of the moment is the housing benefit debate. I we welcome people of that age and beyond. If life am conscious that coming down the track are regulations expectancy is 88 for men, it will be older for women that will change housing benefit for next year. I shall because women are more resilient and better able to concentrate on one of the proposals, in respect of which survive, do well and keep working than men. I hope that there is some scope for modification without I welcome the fact that winter fuel payments have breaking the superstructure of the plan and which is of been maintained, which was a manifesto pledge made more national, UK-wide significance than the capping during the election. I know that the issue is controversial issue. That is of more significance in central London, and debatable, but in the end that pledge was honoured. where of course I have an interest. I am referring to the All those initiatives are welcome, especially those relating proposal to reduce the housing benefit payment from to pensions and elderly people. the 50th percentile of the rents in the broad rental The announcement on child tax credit was good, as market area to the 30th percentile next year. that will help families with children to have the funding I hope that the Government will reconsider the proposal, they need. It is good that we have not backed away from because there are all sorts of reasons why it may not deliver our ambitions on child poverty. In her intervention, the the ability for people to find housing in the community Minister rightly said that we must start by saying how they come from, and communities are important. As 371WH Work and Pensions (CSR)4 NOVEMBER 2010 Work and Pensions (CSR) 372WH the hon. Member for North East Hertfordshire knows, another in a very organised local and regional way. I there are communities just as much in Southwark, have started to talk to colleagues about that. There is Westminster, Chelsea and Hounslow as there are in any willingness on the part of the Government to consider other part of the country. To expect someone to move it. If we are really to ensure that people do not feel from a place that they are renting—I could cite West frightened and insecure but feel encouraged and supported, square, just over the bridge in Southwark, or it could be we need not just changes in structure, but support Covent Garden—and where they have lived all their life systems to help people to make the life transitions from to somewhere four boroughs away, where they have no one form of work to another, or from no work to work, relatives, no friends, no links, no community and no which are very important. history, is unreasonable. I understand some of the issues, but there are ways in Mr Heald: On the idea of phasing, is the hon. Gentleman which the Government could be positive in dealing with thinking that we would go to the 40th percentile? What them. As I understand it, 70% of the housing benefit is his idea? claims in Blackpool are in the private sector, so by definition if the level is lowered, that has a huge effect Simon Hughes: I am seeking to explore ideas. It may on the market. Of course there is a difference between a be possible to move in the first place to the 40th percentile place such as Blackpool and a place at the bottom and later to the 30th. I am conscious that we do not of the league table such as Southwark, which is 31st out want to force people to move twice. I do not think that of the 33 London authorities and where only 13% of would happen if there were much smaller reductions in housing benefit claims are in the private sector. There, a the benefit and therefore people’s budgets were less Government change does not automatically change the hugely affected. I do not pretend that there is only one culture of landlords and the market. I hope that the answer, but I am keen that we ensure that we are not Government will bear that in mind. uprooting people and assuming that they can find somewhere. This is all about predictive markets and Where demand exceeds supply, by definition there how the market will respond. It is very difficult to know will not be available supply in a place around the corner what the outcomes will be. Whatever the experts say, I for someone to move to. In addition, there are people do not think that we can predict things with surety. whom we should not be asking to move when there are Therefore we need to err on the side of caution rather significant reductions in their benefits. I have seen the than risk, because we are dealing with people’s lives and figures in the Government’s own impact study, which homes, and for people with insecure lives and insecure they produced in July.It states that the estimated percentage incomes, having secure homes is very important. of losers varies from 71% in London to 90% in Yorkshire and the Humber, and the average loss per loser varies from £7 a week at the bottom end to £17 a week in the 4.56 pm London region. Those are significant changes. Suddenly Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab): Like the to have to find £17 extra a week in London, for example, hon. Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael), I am a new may just not be possible, however careful people are Member and might struggle with constituency names, with their household budget. so any help will be gratefully received—please feel free My suggestion is that the Government should consider, to help me out. first, phasing any change, rather than going from the I congratulate the Backbench Business Committee 50th percentile to the 30th. I know that it is not happening on securing this terribly important debate about the impact on one day, because it happens over a year on the date of the comprehensive spending review on the Department of the anniversary of the renewal of the claim. Secondly, for Work and Pensions. Of course, the changes announced they could consider treating people who are already in will shape the levels of poverty and employment in this housing and recipients of benefit differently from new country for years to come and it is right that we have the claimants. I am happy to continue to engage in debate opportunity today to examine them in detail and to with Ministers, as are other colleagues, to try to find a understand the impact that they will have on our welfare way forward. I am trying to be non-partisan; I am not system and, as has been said, on communities throughout making party political points, but I think that there the country. must be a new way of being able to deal with what is an This has been an interesting debate and later I will impending problem. rise to the challenge of some of the political temptations There are concerns among colleagues from around put before me, but first I want to say that welfare reform the country about the age for the shared room rate and the work undertaken in this area in the DWP has being put up from 25 to 35 in areas where accommodation been centre-stage in the work of the new Government, is very difficult to find. I just pass that on, so that it can so the debate on how we reform welfare and get more be on the agenda. There are also concerns about the people into work will continue for the immediate and transfer of council tax benefit administration to local foreseeable future. I am sure that we shall have many authorities in due course, with a reduction in the amount discussions. Of course, that is as it should be, as the available. That will be on the agenda of the Minister proposals announced so far will impact on the lives of and her colleagues and the Department for Communities so many people in great need. What may appear to be a and Local Government. technical point in our consideration represents in many The one thing we need to do as we implement some cases a major shift in the living circumstances of a very radical but very good policies is to ensure that as family or an individual. That should always be at the people may be losing jobs in the public sector for a forefront of our minds and any of our discussions. while and we are trying to create jobs in the private Whatever our disagreements—I will come to them—there sector, we have in place organisations and people to are some starting points, as the hon. Member for Stroud assist them in moving from one form of employment to said, on which we can agree. On behalf of the Opposition, 373WH Work and Pensions (CSR)4 NOVEMBER 2010 Work and Pensions (CSR) 374WH

[Margaret Curran] The hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark mentioned the changes in the council tax benefit—apart I make that clear. It has been said before that we are from reducing it by 10%, which alone could cause some prepared to work alongside the Government to consider difficulty, the very nature of devolving its decision the challenge of welfare reform, because we do need to making immediately cuts across the drive to simplicity. reform the welfare state to face the challenges of the The change will have an impact on housing benefit, 21st century: an ageing population, more people in need income support and jobseeker’s allowance. I am told of care and the need for a stronger work force, less by those involved that it is, by all definitions, very dependent on benefits. As the hon. Member for Bermondsey complicated—on the one hand, we have a drive to and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) said, if we could simplicity, on the other an action that complicates it. create a more equal society, of course we would all be Not surprisingly, housing benefit has concentrated a up for that. lot of minds this afternoon. There are many detailed The Secretary of State has made strong commitments discussions to be had. My hon. Friend the Member for and promised to deliver a welfare system that will Stretford and Urmston, with a notable and highly acclaimed make work pay. He has acknowledged, in doing so, that record on child poverty, as she amply demonstrated this he is continuing the work of the previous, Labour afternoon, spoke about some of those complications, as Government—some hon. Members referred to that— did my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor particularly by moving people from incapacity benefit View (Alison Seabeck), when she was present. to the new employment and support allowance, but We can have our debates about the impact on different there have been many other dimensions to that, too. As parts of the country—I willingly acknowledge that the I understand it, there is a history of our working impact might be slightly different in my part of the together when we have recognised challenges in the country from what it would be in London—but we have past. I think that the previous Government worked to listen to the outside organisations, such as Shelter closely with the Opposition on pensions reform. I hope and Crisis, which are telling us that we need to think we can build on that. about it in great depth. Perhaps most tellingly, they are The Secretary of State is familiar with Easterhouse, asking, “Do we need to rush at this?” There might be a in my constituency. I think that visits to that area principle that we need to discuss and grapple with, but persuaded him of the need for reform. He is on record let us not do it with undue haste—there might be as saying that his aim in the reform is to improve the implications that the Government do not intend. Thinking lives of others and not to reduce standards of living—that about that is important. test will be centre stage as we progress with our discussions. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for I wish to highlight one issue that has particular Aberdeen South (Miss Begg), the distinguished Chair resonance for me and my constituency, to which reference of the Select Committee. I have known my hon. Friend has been made—the intention to reduce housing benefit for many years and pay tribute to her authority in this by 10% for those on jobseeker’s allowance for more field and the respect that she commands. In her contribution, than one year. The Government need to acknowledge she gave a strategic outline of some of the challenges that this is one of the most contentious proposals, and that we are facing. Unfortunately, I cannot cover all the one that is causing deep concern throughout the country. points made in the debate, but I will refer to a few of Anyone with a knowledge of Easterhouse or an them in my brief contribution. understanding of the regeneration within such communities One point highlighted by my hon. Friend was the will realise that housing associations are often the drivers depth of concern about the change in the rating, which of change. If we reduce the benefit for many people will take place when we shift from RPI to CPI. I listened who, genuinely, cannot find work because it is not readily to the arguments in favour, but it is incumbent on us to available, we give the housing agencies two choices—to understand the real impact that the change will have on give just one example of the problems with the proposal. the standards of living of the people that we seem to Either the housing agencies can evict people, which care most about. I am not terribly sure that the impact would cause enormous difficulties and create cost in is appreciated yet, but the shift does not rest easily with other ways, or their business plans are undercut because a commitment to let no one’s living standards change as they cannot reap the necessary benefits, so undermining a result of the acts of the Government and to protect our efforts. everyone. If we look at the evidence from a number of That illustrates, again, that what I think are genuine organisations, they would say, “Actually, this reflects an attempts by the Government to reform welfare are effective and a real cut in benefits.” being undercut by other actions—actions by the Treasury, Not surprisingly, the universal credit has been mentioned undercutting actions by the DWP. by just about everyone contributing to the debate—my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston I do not have much time to go into the reform of (Kate Green) made some telling reflections. It is important disability benefits, but I make one request of the Minister. that we recognise that of course there is a move to She has indicated that she will work with disability support universal credit and to simplify the benefits organisations on the disability living allowance and system, and we would support anything possible that other changes. Will she acknowledge that it is vital that would make work pay and encourage and incentivise we engage with the disability movement in tackling any people to work. However, the theme that seems to be such changes? emerging in the debate is that, while the Government I want to refer to child poverty, which was mentioned genuinely seem to be driving reform in that way—I have by a number of hon. Members in the debate. I am so to say that of the Minister and her colleagues—that is tempted to roll up my sleeves and fight for the record of undercut by their other actions. I ask the Government the previous Labour Government, but we could to think about that seriously. continue like that for some time. Let me just say that, 375WH Work and Pensions (CSR)4 NOVEMBER 2010 Work and Pensions (CSR) 376WH according to the statistics and briefings mentioned, differences. Yes, we introduced conditionality, but the from Barnardo’s and Save the Children, the Labour sanctions were backed up by guarantees, the youth Government lifted 600,000 children out of relative poverty guarantee and the future jobs fund. Yet one of the first and made substantial progress on absolute poverty. actions of the Government in power was to abolish Those organisations recognised that as a substantial them. That is a colossal error for anyone committed to achievement, which made significant progress in improving welfare reform. As I said earlier, it would appear that the lives of so many people. the Secretary of State is persuaded of the case for There are real challenges in what the Government are meaningful reform. However, it seems that he has not doing across the board to tackle child poverty—that persuaded his Cabinet colleagues that such reform needs was well articulated in the debate—in particular when to be supported more systematically. looking at the child care element of the working tax We were told earlier this afternoon—I am sure that I credit, which will now only cover 70% of child care shall be told again in a moment—that the level of costs rather than the previous 80%. We know that child unemployment is unavoidable, and that what is happening care presents an important barrier to people returning in the economy is the result of our actions. Like my to work, so the change again seems to contradict efforts to hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South, I am old reform and improve the move to get people back to work. enough to remember the last Tory Government. They The Institute for Fiscal Studies report, produced said then that unemployment was unavoidable, but they after the Budget, outlined how many of the measures were wrong then and I believe that they are wrong now. disproportionately affected the poorest families. A number For the record, between 2007 and 2009, and before of organisations are now saying to the Government, the global crisis, the UK had the second lowest level of “When you look at the impact you are having on the debt among the G7 countries at 36.5%. Labour reduced poorest families and at the timing of when some of the debt that we inherited from the previous Tory your commitments will come through, particularly two, Government, when it stood at 42.5%. It was the three or four years down the line, how can you possibly global economic crisis of 2008 and the resultant need to say that child poverty figures will be protected?” bail out the banks that caused the deficit that we have Added to that is recent research by the House of today. Commons Library on the impact of the Budget on women—to which, again, reference has been made. The Damian Hinds: Does the hon. Lady accept the existence fact is that the cuts announced in the comprehensive of a structural deficit, quite separate from the cyclical spending review will hit women twice as hard as they hit part, and will she accept some responsibility on behalf men. There are big cuts in support paid directly to of her party for that? mothers, including cuts in child care, child benefit and tax credits. Also, the significant cuts to the public sector Margaret Curran: When looking back at the Budgets will, disproportionately, hit women hard—in employment of Labour Governments, the hon. Gentleman’s own and in the services they need to support families, which Prime Minister said that we were not bold enough with are vital in tackling poverty. There is much concern our spending plans. The hon. Gentleman cannot get about that. away with his argument, and I hope not to hear it again. The Minister has already put on the record that her It was a global crisis that created the problems that we Department will issue an equality impact assessment of faced, and we had to respond to it. the cuts on women and, indeed, disabled people. Can she indicate when we might get that report? Damian Hinds: Will the hon. Lady give way? That brings me to the fundamental concern about the Government’s approach. Not only will they undermine Margaret Curran: No. I hope that the Minister does their own efforts to reform welfare, but they will destabilise not repeat that argument, because in tackling the crisis growth and increase unemployment across the country. we decided not to do what had been done during The extent of the cuts to the welfare budget announced previous recessions, when the unemployed paid the in the June Budget and in last month’s CSR seems to price. We kept people in their homes and in jobs. That reflect the political ambitions of the Chancellor rather was the right thing to do. If we were still in Government, more than those of the Secretary of State for Work and we would not be making our children and our families Pensions. In both those announcements, we have heard pay more than we would make the banks pay. Even the too much about cuts and not enough about reform—I Government’s own Office for Budget Responsibility acknowledge that reform was the tenor of the debate declares that there will be substantial job losses as a today, but it is not always like that with the Government. direct result of the Government’s decision to slash the I have said that we will work with the Government as deficit as quickly and as steeply as they can. I repeat— they intend to progress with reform, but there is a this goes to the core of what we are trying to tackle—that fundamental flaw in their approach so far. Their welfare we all know that high unemployment will mean a reform is based on the premise that it is best to get higher welfare bill and a bigger deficit in the long people back to work and that work pays—so far, so run, and will defeat genuine and well-meant efforts at good. However, it falls down with what happens when reform. there is no work to go to. I am sure that the debate may change emphasis with It cannot make sense to have people on the dole. We the publication of the White Paper. However, the all know that longer dole queues mean a higher benefits benchmarks of fairness, proportionality and effectiveness bill, which cuts across the very principles of what the in getting people back to work will be the test that we Government are doing. So, the Government are only use. When the Government meet that test, we will continuing in part what we were doing. There are significant happily work with them. 377WH Work and Pensions (CSR)4 NOVEMBER 2010 Work and Pensions (CSR) 378WH

5.12 pm Department will see a modest rise in spending in real terms, although we do not underestimate the challenge The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work that lies ahead. and Pensions (Maria Miller): It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Turner; it is the first The Government will not cheese-pare or salami-slice time that I have done so, and you helped to ensure a the budgets that we have in place; we are taking the most productive debate. I also thank the hon. Member opportunity to rethink not only what we do but how we for Colchester (Bob Russell), who is absent, and the do it. That is why we are introducing universal credit. It hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green), will beat the benefit trap, and it will make work pay for for enabling the debate to take place. the poorest. We are launching the new Work programme The quality of debate showed how important these to help those who can to escape a life on long-term matters are, and how important it is for them to be benefit. That is why we are working hard to support discussed. To a certain extent, it has allowed us to put families, especially children, with an above-indexation some facts on the table. With the exception of the most increase for the child element of tax credits; launching economically illiterate, or a few ostriches that might still the £7 billion fairness premium, which will give some of exist, few serious commentators doubt the urgent need the poorest children a better start at school; and giving to tackle the financial mess left by the previous most disadvantaged two-year-olds access to 15 hours a Administration. week of pre-school education. Those and many other support measures will make a real difference to families I have a slight divergence of opinion with the hon. and to poverty levels. Member for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran), who spoke for the Opposition. She cannot ignore the fact In my role as Minister for disabled people, I shall that we are dealing with a major structural deficit, and ensure that we have in place more support than ever for unless we get that under control, we will continue to disabled people to help them get back into employment, have to pay the most astronomical levels of interest and and continuing, unconditional support for those who run the risk of seeing rates rise and the consequent are unable to work. economic chaos that we have seen in some European Many important points were made this afternoon, countries. and I shall try to answer them all. Those that I am We should not forget that we are paying £43 billion in unable to answer today I shall answer in writing; I shall interest payments; that is £120 million a day. To put it write to hon. Members individually. another way, it is the equivalent of the annual budget I welcome the tone of the contribution of the hon. for the Department for Education. These are not small Member for Glasgow East; it was important, and I amounts of money. It is a structural problem. We have welcome her emphasis on working together and her to deal with the fiscal mess that we inherited from the understanding of our desire to put in place real and previous Government. After years of throwing public genuine reforms. I reassure her that we are working money at a bloated welfare system, the previous closely with disabled people and disabled people’s charities Administration also left us with a legacy of dependency, in reforming those programmes. The hon. Lady mentioned which was mentioned in many contributions to the equality impact assessments. I assure her that all the debate. measures in the Budget and the spending review will The facts tell their own story. Nearly 5 million people have equality impact assessments in place; they will be live in households in which someone is on an out-of-work published at the same time as the welfare reform Bill, benefit, despite record levels of spending; it was £35 billion and will accompany any uprating order. in 2008-09. We still have 2.8 million children living in Thoughtful contributions were made by my hon. poverty. Friends the Members for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) and for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Kate Green: Will the Minister give way? Hughes). They included comments about housing. I might roll together my responses, given the time constraint. Maria Miller: I cannot accept interventions, Mr Turner, Changes to do with people’s homes will obviously cause as we are short of time and I know that you want a a great deal of concern. short wind-up at the end of the debate. I want as much My hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and time as possible to answer the points raised during the Old Southwark rightly said that it is about ensuring that debate, including by the hon. Member for Stretford and we have secure and stable communities. We believe that Urmston. the local housing rates in place at the moment are We still have 1.9 million children living in workless simply too high, and not sustainable. We have seen them households. Instead of burying our heads in the sand, outstrip earnings since local housing measures were put which has been the approach of too many Opposition in place in 2008, and we want to phase in the overall Members, and potentially leaving our children to pick package of measures to give people the time to adjust to up the bill—that is the legacy of this huge debt—the a different regime and a different way of dealing with Government are taking action now, and making tough matters. However, we still need to legislate for the choices. We are tackling the root causes of poverty, not changes through secondary legislation, so there will be just treating the symptoms. an opportunity to debate the measures further. Indeed, The failure of the last Government is the reason why I am sure that we shall do so. we need the toughest round of spending since 1976. What is important is that the Government have an Inevitably, the Department for Work and Pensions will important role in the private rental sector. Some 40% of have to shoulder its share of the burden, along with people in that sector are in receipt of housing benefits, other Departments. I believe that we successfully secured so we are part of the market-making, and we must the third best settlement in Whitehall. As a result the recognise that. We cannot stand back and let the market 379WH Work and Pensions (CSR)4 NOVEMBER 2010 Work and Pensions (CSR) 380WH control the sector, as the Opposition did when they were May. He talked about those who spend prolonged periods in government. We must take action and, at the same on benefits, the negative effect that that can have and time, protect the sort of people in the constituency of inter-generational worklessness. my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) Picking up on the point about variable conditions, let who he mentioned. That is why we have put in place me say that that is exactly the sort of thing that Professor £140 million transitional relief to ensure that the support Harrington will be considering, and concern over the is there if it is needed. That problem was anticipated by matter has been voiced to us. the previous Government and it was in Labour’s manifesto. I find it astonishing that Labour—at least some Members The Chairman of the Select Committee raised a of its Back Bench—now seem to be trying to row back number of points today. I am sure that I will not do from that. I sense that the hon. Member for Glasgow justice to the questions that she asked, but I will have a East has a deeper understanding of the need for reform quick go in the two minutes that I have left. We have in this area, and I hope that we can work together on made the changes to the council tax because the present this matter. system is complex, and it has rigid rules in place. The changes that we have proposed are in line with the My other hon. Friends made some stirring contributions, overall theme of this Government, which is of localism particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester and of giving local people more flexibility to react to (Richard Graham), and I welcome his support for the the circumstances in their community. It is that local Government’s policy. He is right to say that this is a flexibility that will help us to deliver more value for the radical and ambitious new approach. We cannot simply amount of money that we are investing in measures stand back and let the welfare system continue to fail so such as the council tax and council tax relief. many thousands of people, as it has done for the past 10 years. The hon. Lady asked why we are raising housing benefits by the consumer prices index. Let me remind My hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth her that housing awards have grown faster than earnings (Mary Macleod) talked eloquently about the work that since 2008 when the new measures were introduced to is going on in her constituency. Helping people fulfil support those on private rentals. We want to take control their potential is exactly what we want to do with the of the amount of money that is going into housing Work programme. People are not statistics; they are benefits, which is in line with out strategy to integrate individuals and need individual programmes of support. housing support with the rest of the benefit system that Her idea of encouraging local organisations to be involved will also be uprated by CPI. in such work is absolutely right. All hon. Members will agree that my hon. Friend the The hon. Lady raised some issues about care homes. Member for North East Hertfordshire (Mr Heald) made In particular, she mentioned the measure that we are an extremely important contribution. As for the timing taking with regards to mobility. Just to be clear, local of universal credit, we will have a White Paper coming authority contracts with care homes mean that care out shortly, and the transition to universal credit will homes are providing services to meet all the needs of start in 18 months’ time. Such a move will happen soon their residents, and that includes those with mobility and not way into the future. Some 50% of people will be needs. Our commitment to increase the uptake of personal transferred on to universal credit by the end of the benefits through personalisation will give people more spending review period. We will give priority to the choice and more control over the money that is available people who need the help the most and ensure that to them. The local authority duty exists to meet the there will be no losers when the transfer takes place, needs of people who are living in residential homes and which reflects the importance of making this change. to provide the services. We have removed an overlapping benefit and tried to ensure that the money can be used My hon. Friend is right to say that in the past, effectively elsewhere. employment programmes have been fragmented. We will use Jobcentre Plus as a lynchpin to ensure that we The hon. Lady also raised another matter with regard smooth out the transition process between old programmes to lone parents, but time will escape me, so I will have to and the new Work programme. write to her on that. The hon. Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) asked about the success of the future My hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Neil jobs fund. I want to make it clear that that fund is one Carmichael) provided us with a great insight into the of the most expensive employment programmes in place matter today, particularly by raising the issue of the at the moment. We have honoured the offers of places Harrington report. He made it clear that there will be on the future jobs fund that were made before we came annual reviews of the work capability assessment for into Government, but it is not good value for money the next five years. and it does not provide the long-term employment that Let me clear up the point about the appeals processes. we know that people need. That is why we are not The ESA has a 5% appeal rate, so 5% of the total rolling that forward, and it is a really good and valid number of applications have had their decision overturned reason for not doing so. on appeal. That is not a massive problem and it does The hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston raised not indicate that there is an unacceptable level of inaccuracy, a number of issues, but I will pick up on just one of so we must keep such things in proportion. Of course them—the benefit cap. I do not accept that such a all of us want to see a 0% appeal rate, but that would be measure will increase child poverty. Putting in place a difficult to achieve. cap will effectively stop anybody receiving benefits that My hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton was very would translate into a salary of £35,000 a year. That much the voice of reason in this debate. I cannot agree will not increase child poverty. What it will do is ensure with him more that it did feel like we were inheriting an that work will pay for more families. We know that economic car crash when we came into Government in enabling families to get into work by, for example, not 381WH Work and Pensions (CSR)4 NOVEMBER 2010 Work and Pensions (CSR) 382WH

[Maria Miller] There has been a problem with housing benefit. The debate was skewed by concentrating on the cap. Serious creating a disincentive is one of the most important concerns were raised about the 30th percentile and the things that we can do to alleviate poverty in the long JSA sanction. I hope that the Minister understands that term. transitional arrangements will be required on a range of I draw to a close now, and apologise if I have not issues. I refer in particular to those issues on which the addressed all the points that hon. Members have raised. new Government’s policy is not yet in place and those I will try to do so later. policies introduced under the previous Government that have already stopped. There is a clear need for 5.28 pm transitional arrangements. All in all, this has been an excellent debate. I look Miss Begg: Let me thank the Backbench Business forward to the White Paper, which is to be published Committee. I have sat in your seat, Mr Turner, on many shortly. We may be back here having another debate on Thursday afternoons with only three people in the these issues in a couple of months’ time. If today’s Chamber. Today, however, we have had many contributions debate is anything to go by, it will also be a good and from a large number of people, which reflects the well-humoured debate. I thank everyone who has turned importance of this excellent debate. The subject transcends up this afternoon. party politics, because the issues discussed today will affect thousands and thousands of our own constituents. Question put and agreed to. I hope that the Government see those of us on the Opposition Benches as critical friends. We want the Government to get this right because it is our constituents who will suffer if they do not. I hope that this debate 5.29 pm has been constructive and helpful. Sitting adjourned. 37WS Written Ministerial Statements4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 38WS

planning authorities to withdraw permitted development Written Ministerial rights. The updated appendix D being published today reflects amendments to the article 4 direction procedures Statements introduced in April 2010. The main effect of these changes is to grant local planning authorities the ability to confirm article 4 directions themselves rather than to Thursday 4 November 2010 have to apply to the Secretary of State (as was formerly required for certain directions), require that all article 4 directions are subject to local consultation, and to BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS require that all article 4 directions are publicised by site notice in addition to local advertisement. Local Growth White Paper (Correction) The replacement appendix D also reflects amendments to the compensation provisions related to article 4 directions introduced in October 2010, which limit the The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and period during which local authorities may be liable for Skills (Vince Cable): I announced the publication of the such claims. Local Growth White Paper on Thursday 28 October. It has now come to my attention that the White Paper Taken together, the replacement to Circular 5/10 and contains an error. the updated appendix to Circular 9/95 will ensure that up-to-date and accessible information exists in relation Paragraph 3.23 of the White Paper reads: to planning controls over HMOs and the making of “That is why, for example, nationally important infrastructure article 4 directions. No further impact assessment has projects (such as large scale wind farms and power plants), the been produced for these publications as changes to supply of aggregate minerals and planning for waste will become the responsibility of the Planning Inspectorate’s recently announced planning legislation of houses in multiple occupation Major Infrastructure Planning Unit”. and article 4 directions have previously been assessed. The Major Infrastructure Planning Unit will not, however, be responsible for examining applications for aggregate mineral extraction. Nor will it be responsible HOME DEPARTMENT for examining applications on those waste management facilities which fall below the thresholds set out in the Planning Act 2008. Therefore, paragraph 3.23 should read: Justice and Home Affairs (Pre-Council Statement) “That is why, for example, nationally important infrastructure projects (such as large scale wind farms and power plants) will become the responsibility of the Planning Inspectorate’s recently The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the announced Major Infrastructure Planning Unit”. Home Department (James Brokenshire): My right hon. A correction slip to this effect has been added to the Friend the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for copies of the White Paper laid in the Journal Office and Justice, Kenny MacAskill, the Scottish Secretary for deposited in the Vote and other offices. Justice, and I will attend the Justice and Home Affairs Council on 8 and 9 November in Brussels. The Council will begin with Mixed Committee with COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland (non-EU Schengen States). Due to the standing commitment to Planning Circulars (HMOs) update Council on the progress of the second generation of the Schengen Information System II (SIS II) the Commission will provide an update on developments. The Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Greg Clark): I am today publishing Next there will be a discussion on the proposal to a replacement to Department for Communities and move Albania and Bosnia-Herzegovina to the positive Local Government Circular 5/10 (on planning controls annex of Regulation 539/2001 which would exclude for houses in multiple occupation), and a replacement their nationals from the EU visa requirement when appendix D of Department of the Environment Circular travelling to the Schengen area. The United Kingdom 9/95 (on the article 4 direction process, that allows local does not participate in the border and visa aspects of planning authorities to withdraw permitted development the Schengen Acquis as they build on elements of the rights in certain circumstances). Copies have been placed Schengen Acquis in which we do not participate. The in the Library of the House. UK will not be affected by changes to the regulation of the Common Visa List, but will maintain an interest in A replacement to Department for Communities and all visa issues notably issues relating to full reciprocity Local Government “Circular 5/10: Changes to Planning for third-country nationals. Regulations for Dwelling Houses and Houses in Multiple Occupation” will cover changes to planning legislation The Council will note progress towards an amending introduced in October this year, which make changes of regulation on Frontex, the EU external borders agency. use from family houses to small HMOs permitted The new regulation is intended to increase the capacity development (i.e. there is no need to obtain planning of Frontex to strengthen the security and surveillance consent for this from the local planning authority). of the external Schengen borders, to develop relationships Appendix D of Department of the Environment with third countries, and better to assist member states “Circular 9/95: General Development Consolidation to return those with no right to remain in the EU. The 1995” relates to article 4 directions, which allow local UK is not directly affected as the amending regulation 39WS Written Ministerial Statements4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 40WS relates to those elements of the Schengen Acquis in initiative since its creation, supports these conclusions which we do not participate. However, the UK does as we believe key benefits to the UK include greater provide support to the operational and other activities opportunity to influence the EU agenda on organised of Frontex and we have been actively engaged in the crime; the potential alignment of EU funds to support drafting process for the amendment. The UK is particularly operational delivery; and as a result greater commitment keen to see that the remit of Frontex is extended to of member states to work collaboratively to tackle the allow it to handle the personal data of those suspected agreed prioritised threats. of involvement in criminality at the border. We believe The presidency will seek a firm political steer on the that being able to gather and share these data with other way forward for implementation of the Prum Council agencies such as Europol is vital to Frontex’s contribution Decisions. The Council will acknowledge that obstacles to the fight against human trafficking and smuggling. are not only technical in nature but also political and The Council will be updated on a draft regulation linked to financial and human resources. The Council updating the establishment of a network of immigration will also consider recommendations for practical solutions, liaison officers, with a view to reaching agreement between through the provision of technical assistance, the use of Council and Parliament before the end of the Belgian EU funding, and a streamlined evaluation process. presidency. The amended regulation is intended to The Commission will present their annual report on strengthen the EU’s capacity to address illegal migration, the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug and seeks to achieve greater benefit from Immigration Addiction (EMCDDA) which is due to be published on Liaison Officer (ILO) networks for Frontex and the 10 November. Commission. The UK supports the content of this Under AOB the Commission will present their initiative proposal, and welcomes its aims to strengthen Frontex for a regulation on the marketing and use of explosives. and to enhance partnership working within the EU The regulation proposes to limit access by the general (and with other international partners) to tackle illegal public to specific chemicals that can be used to manufacture migration. However, we do not agree with the current home-made explosives by restricting their use and possession interpretation of the UK’s legal participation and will above set concentration thresholds. The UK will seek to look to protect the UK’s right to opt in. negotiate changes to the text and it is expected that the Next the Council will discuss the sixth report of the proposal will go for Council approval in the middle of Commission on the maintenance of visa requirements. 2011. Regulation 539/2001 as amended (the Common Visa The presidency has also placed the Prague process- List) aims to establish reciprocity with non-EU countries building migration partnerships as an AOB item at the which continue to impose a visa requirement on the request of Hungary. The intention of the process is to nationals of some EU member states for stays of under implement strengthened practical and operational 90 days (although those member states do not impose co-operation with main countries of transit and origin the visa requirement on nationals of those non-EU based on the global approach to migration—specifically countries). The UK will not be affected by changes to the Eastern migration route, which includes Czech Republic, the regulation of the Common Visa List however; will Hungary, Poland, Romania and Slovakia. We support maintain an interest in all visa issues, and notably issues the Prague process and welcome the valuable results it relating to full reciprocity for third-country nationals. has achieved, it is a good example of how we can turn Following Mixed Committee, the Council will receive our policies into practical action. a progress report on those dossiers being prioritised by The Justice day will commence with a Commission the Belgian presidency under the Common European presentation on a proposal for a directive regarding Asylum System: the extension of the long-term residents measures against new forms of cybercrime, including directive to beneficiaries of international protection, large-scale cyber-attacks. The UK takes the issue of the qualification directive, Eurodac, Dublin and the cybercrime very seriously and recognises that it is an establishment of the European Asylum Support Office. international problem. The UK is keen to work with The UK Government believe that the challenges that other member states to ensure that there can be an Europe faces in the asylum field are better addressed by effective response to cybercrime in the EU. We are practical co-operation than by further legislation. We considering whether to opt in. need to work with those member states that are under There will be an orientation debate on the European pressure to help them improve their asylum systems and Investigation Order (EIO) which is a draft directive deal with the claims they receive. In particular, the EU aimed at streamlining the system of mutual legal assistance needs to provide properly co-ordinated support to help between participating EU member states to discuss Greece implement reforms to its asylum system. We see broad issues relating to the EIO including grounds on the new European Asylum Support Office as playing a which an EIO could be refused. In particular, the Council crucial role in this work and will play an active role in will be asked to give a steer on the grounds for refusal the office’s development. which should apply; the UK will argue strongly that Over lunch Interior Ministers will receive an update proportionality must be a consideration. Detailed work from the Belgian Minister for Immigration on recent will then continue at working group level. visits to Cyprus, Malta and Greece and have a discussion There will be an information point on the letter of on solidarity in the field of immigration and asylum. rights to information in criminal proceedings. This is After lunch the Council will have a discussion on the the second measure in the road map to strengthen creation and implementation of an EU policy cycle on procedural rights in criminal proceedings and it aims to organised crime (Project Harmony), which presents a set common minimum standards and improve the rights pragmatic, intelligence-led approach to prioritising and of suspects and accused persons by ensuring that they tackling agreed threats caused by serious organised receive information about their rights. The UK has crime. The UK, having been a project partner in this opted in to this measure. 41WS Written Ministerial Statements4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 42WS

During lunch Justice Ministers will discuss judicial of the House. I am content that this recommendation co-operation in cross-border regions in the light of has been satisfactorily complied with, as I believe is the responses to a questionnaire submitted to member states. Justice Minister. The questionnaire and the debate are aimed at improving In response to the second recommendation requiring the knowledge about the different forms of international NIPS to satisfy themselves that any relevant lessons co-operation between borders. The UK’s experience of from HMP Maze have been learned for HMP Maghaberry, co-operation in cross-border regions is limited to that the summary of a recent audit undertaken by the NIPS, between the borders of Northern Ireland and the Republic and the steps being taken as a result, can be found at of Ireland. annex C of the documentation placed in the Library of the House. Remedial activities will include both physical infrastructure, where it is operationally required, and NORTHERN IRELAND updating of certain policies and guidance. The third recommendation invites the Justice Minister Equality Commission for Northern Ireland to consider whether a process similar to the Patten Commission on policing for Northern Ireland might The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen pave the way for radical change in the way NIPS is Paterson): I am pleased to announce the appointment managed and how its industrial relations are conducted. of four new Commissioners to the Equality Commission I am informed by the Justice Minister that his statement for Northern Ireland. Fidelma Carolan, Milton Kerr, to the Assembly on 21 June 2010—the text of which can Stephen McIlveen and Liam Maskey will take up office be found at annex D of the documentation placed in the on 8 November 2010. Library of the House—relating to a fundamental review The Equality Commission is a key institution of the of the conditions of detention, management and oversight Belfast agreement and plays a vital role in protecting of all prisons, carried out by an independent team, and promoting equality for all members of the diverse fulfils the panel’s third recommendation. The Justice society in Northern Ireland. The Commission is now Minister also advises me that a strategic efficiency and facing new challenges, not least in fulfilling its remit in a effectiveness programme is being taken forward by the testing economic environment. senior management of NIPS in consultation with the I am confident that the four new Commissioners three staff associations. Annex E of the documentation bring a wealth of knowledge, skills and understanding, placed in the Library of the House summarises the helping the Commission to meet the challenges ahead remit of this programme. and build on its considerable achievements over the last I am grateful to the Justice Minister and the Northern 11 years. Ireland Prison Service for providing me with this information and I commend their promptness in addressing these important recommendations.

Billy Wright Inquiry Independent Monitoring Commission Report The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen Paterson): On 14 September 2010 I made a statement to The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen this House, publishing the report of the Billy Wright Paterson): I have received the 25th report of the Independent inquiry. The report made three specific recommendations Monitoring Commission (IMC), on levels of paramilitary that should be applied to the Northern Ireland Prison activity in Northern Ireland. The IMC conclude that Service (NIPS). dissident groups continue to pose a substantial and In my statement of 14 September, I informed the potentially lethal threat, particularly against members House that I intended to meet with the Northern Ireland of the security forces. I am today laying the report Justice Minister, David Ford, in the week following the before Parliament. publication of the inquiry’s report to discuss the The Independent Monitoring Commission (IMC) recommendations made by Lord MacLean and his was established jointly by the British and Irish Governments panel. In addition to this meeting I have also discussed in 2004 to help in the process of making the transition the matter with the Justice Minister more recently. in Northern Ireland to a peaceful society and stable and Although prisons issues are now, in the main, a devolved inclusive devolved Government in Northern Ireland. In matter, it is right that I keep the House informed of paragraph 1.5 of their 25th report the Commission progress in regard to the report’s recommendations. refer to comments in previous reports on the I have now received correspondence from the Justice “implications for the continuation of the IMC of the peace Minister updating me on progress made in relation to process drawing to a close and more normal arrangements for the recommendations and providing me with security and the administration of justice taking over, since when documentation relating to NIPS’ response to the we have had the devolution of policing and justice”. recommendations made in the inquiry’s report. A copy Since they were formally established in 2004 they has been placed in the Library of the House. have prepared 20 reports on paramilitary activity and To summarise, in response to the first recommendation five reports on security normalisation in Northern Ireland. relating to the retention of records by NIPS, I am Over that period there have been significant changes in advised that steps have been taken in recent years to the political and security landscape in Northern Ireland. provide assurances regarding the retention and disposal In July 2005 the Provisional IRA announced an of hard copy and electronic files. Details can be found end to their armed campaign and in September in annex B of the documentation placed in the Library 2005 the Independent International Commission on 43WS Written Ministerial Statements4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 44WS

Decommissioning (IICD) reported that the Provisional the exception of some residual terrorist groups, the IRA had decommissioned all the arms within its leaderships of paramilitary groups remain committed control. In May 2007 the Ulster Volunteer Force made to the political process and to transforming their a statement renouncing violence and in June 2009 the organisations. Ulster Defence Association also issued a statement announcing that the struggle had ended. On 25 February The IMC have played a crucial part in supporting 2010 the IICD reported to the British and Irish and enabling the historic changes that we have seen in Governments that it had overseen the decommissioning Northern Ireland over the last 12 years. Although there of all the arms within the control of the UDA, UVF, remain those who have rejected peace and politics and Official IRA and the Irish National Liberation Army. who actively work to undermine it, Northern Ireland has made the transition to stable, local democracy and The Government’s security normalisation programme, the job of the IMC is nearing completion. The two including the conclusion of the military’s Operation Governments have, therefore, asked the IMC to prepare Banner, was completed and reported on in the IMC’s one more final report on their work, including lessons 16th report. learned. After that, we will bring the IMC arrangements In parallel with this programme of security normalisation, to an end. I would like to place on record my thanks to we have seen the political process firmly embedded in the IMC for their work and their contribution to the Northern Ireland. Devolution was restored on 8 May developments that have taken place over the last six 2007 and devolved Government has now been up and years. running for the longest continuous period since 1972. Locally elected politicians from Northern Ireland are There is a continuing public interest in ensuring that now responsible for making decisions about the issues the public are informed about the threat from Northern that really matter to the people of Northern Ireland—jobs, Ireland-related terrorism. Once we have received and health, education and the environment—and since considered the IMC’s final report, the British and Irish 12 April 2010, policing and justice. In their last several Governments will do what is necessary to ensure that reports the IMC have consistently assessed that, with need is met. 875W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 876W Written Answers to HOME DEPARTMENT Animal Experiments: Primates

Questions Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many overseas companies Thursday 4 November 2010 designated as breeding and supply establishments to supply non-human primates to the UK for the purposes of scientific research wean infant primates from their mothers at six months or younger. [22007] WOMEN AND EQUALITIES Lynne Featherstone: The Home Office has no jurisdiction Departmental Official Hospitality or remit to designate or approve overseas breeding and supplying centres. The use of non-human primates Ian Austin: To ask the Minister for Women and from an overseas source in regulated procedures is Equalities how much the Government Equalities Office authorised only when the centre in question has spent on hospitality for events hosted by each of demonstrated that animals bred and supplied to licensees its Ministers in (a) September and (b) October 2010. in the United Kingdom will have been weaned at more [21793] than six months of age except in rare cases where infants have been either abandoned or orphaned. Lynne Featherstone: The Government Equalities Office has not spent any money on ministerial hospitality in Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for the September or October 2010. Home Department if her Department will consider implementing a ban on the import of (a) all primates Departmental Public Expenditure for the purposes of scientific research, (b) the offspring of wild-caught primates and (c) primates from Lisa Nandy: To ask the Minister for Women and establishments that trap wild monkeys for breeding Equalities whether the Government Equalities Office purposes. [22039] has established processes to monitor any effects of Lynne Featherstone: I have no plans to do so. However proposed reductions in its expenditure. [21627] European Directive 2010/63/EU on the protection of animals used for scientific purposes, published in the Lynne Featherstone: The Government Equalities Office Official Journal of the European Union on 20 October and its Board will use existing processes to monitor the 2010, which must be implemented in United Kingdom Government Equalities Office expenditure and the effects legislation from 1 January 2013, contains proposed time of reductions in its budget following the spending review. scales for a move towards the use of F2 non-human Departmental Redundancy primates or animals sourced from self-sustaining colonies. A detailed assessment of the provisions of the new Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Minister for Women directive is under way and will in due course be included and Equalities how much funding to meet staff redundancy in a public consultation on options for transposition. costs was identified in the settlement letter for the Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for the Government Equalities Office in respect of the Home Department (a) how many and (b) what species Comprehensive Spending Review. [21565] of non-human primates imported for the purposes of scientific research were categorised as (i) captive-born Lynne Featherstone: The settlement letter relating to (or F1 generation) and (ii) captive-bred (F2+ generation) the Government Equalities Office did not identify funding in (A) 2009 and (B) 2010. [22045] specifically to meet staff redundancy costs. Lynne Featherstone: Although the information currently Philip Davies: To ask the Minister for Women and submitted to the Home Office following the acquisition Equalities how many staff of the Government Equalities of each batch of non-human primates provides evidence Office have been offered enhanced early retirement packages that animals have been born in captivity, there is currently in each of the last three years. [22034] no requirement for the records to indicate whether animals are F1 or F2+. However, from the information Lynne Featherstone: The Government Equalities Office available we estimate the respective totals to be as (GEO) has not offered any enhanced early retirement detailed in the following table. packages over the past three years. Numbers of imported captive-born (or F1 generation) and captive-bred (F2+ Departmental Travel generation) non-human primates F1 F2 Ian Austin: To ask the Minister for Women and 2009 Equalities what estimate the Government Equalities Common marmoset 0 100 Office has made of its expenditure on travel undertaken Rhesus macaque 0 44 by (a) her and (b) each other Minister in the Office in Cynomolgus macaque 1,257 958 (i) September and (ii) October 2010. [21862] 2010 (reported to date) Lynne Featherstone: The Government Equalities Office Common marmoset 0 0 has not spent any money on ministerial travel during Rhesus macaque 0 40 September or October 2010. 877W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 878W

Numbers of imported captive-born (or F1 generation) and captive-bred (F2+ Damian Green: The UK Border Agency makes every generation) non-human primates effort to ensure that a person’s removal by deportation F1 F2 coincides, as far as possible, with his/her release from Cynomolgus macaque 970 545 prison on completion of sentence. Where sentence length allows, the UK Border Agency will consider deportation up to 18 months prior to the earliest point of removal. Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what her Department’s policy is on Foreign nationals who are served with a deportation the importation to the UK for the purposes of scientific notice have the right of appeal against the decision research of (a) the offspring of wild-caught primates before the courts. and (b) non-human primates from establishments that Deportation can be delayed in a number of ways. trap wild monkeys for breeding purposes. [22046] Judicial challenge can be used as a means to frustrate removal. This is being tackled through improved legal Lynne Featherstone: Within current policy the use of and case working in the UK Border Agency and closer non-human primates from an overseas source in regulated co-operation with the judiciary. procedures is authorised only when the centre in question There may be delays in deportation if foreign national has demonstrated that it provides appropriate standards prisoners do not fully co-operate with the documentation of housing and care for animals likely to be bred and process. Failing to answer questions or providing false supplied to licensees in the United Kingdom. Where information will prevent or delay the UK Border Agency applicable, the breeding centre should also have a policy obtaining a travel document to facilitate their removal. of reducing dependence on wild-caught animals for Where there are difficulties in obtaining travel documents future breeding stock at least in relation to the animals these issues are taken up directly with the relevant likely to be bred and supplied to the UK. The number embassy or high commission. of wild-caught animals introduced into the colony for The Government are committed to exploring ways of breeding should be in accordance with restrictions imposed removing these individuals even earlier. This will include by the relevant national authority. Where the breeding working with the prisons, courts and the police to build centre is capturing wild or feral primates it should have on our capacity to gather intelligence information on a clearly defined and effective process for ensuring that nationality at an earlier stage. any person trapping primates is adequately trained and supervised in humane methods of capture. Human Trafficking

Entry Clearances Mr Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what the title is of the official in her Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department who has lead responsibility for human Department whether the Government has opted in to trafficking policy. [21735] (a) the EU Directive establishing the conditions of entry and residence of third country nationals entering Damian Green: Policy responsibility for human trafficking the EU through an intra-company transfer and (b) the rests with the Organised and Financial Crime Unit in EU Directive on conditions of entry and residence of the Home Office which is headed by a deputy director. third country nationals for the purpose of seasonal employment. [21718] Identity Cards

Damian Green: The UK has not opted in to either of Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for the these EU Directives. Home Department what estimate she has made of the saving to the Exchequer arising from her decision not to EU Blue Card: Engineers introduce compulsory identity cards in each of the next five years. [21131] Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for the Damian Green [holding answer 1 November 2010]: It Home Department what assessment her Department is estimated that exchequer savings of approximately has made of the merits of implementing the EU Blue £86 million will be realised from cancelling ID cards Card scheme for engineers and IT technicians. [21413] and the National Identity Register over the next four years. Damian Green [holding answer 2 November 2010]: The UK has not opted into the EU Blue Card scheme Immigration Controls: Foreign Workers and has no plans to do so. Engineers and IT technicians may apply to work in the UK under our Points-Based System. Alan Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what discussions she has had with the Office for Budget Responsibility on the effect on Foreign Nationals: Prisoners economic growth of a permanent cap on the number of immigrant workers. [13921] Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps she is taking to Mrs May: I have not discussed with the Office for remove from the UK foreign prisoners held in the Budget Responsibility the impact of a migration limit prison estate under immigration powers after completion on growth, but Home Office officials are currently of their sentences; and if she will make a statement. assessing the potential impacts in liaison and consultation [20966] with other Government Departments. 879W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 880W

Immigration: Detainees Slavery

Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home the Home Department what plans she has to accelerate Department what steps her Department took to mark the decision-making process for immigrants being held Anti-Slavery Day 2010; and what guidance her Department in detention centres. [21259] provided to other Government departments on marking that day. [19848] Damian Green: Detention is important in ensuring that those who do not have a basis to remain in the Damian Green [holding answer 27 October 2010]: United Kingdom can be removed from the UK Anti-Slavery Day provides an excellent focal point around expeditiously once their case is decided. We always which the voluntary sector can raise awareness of human prefer that people leave the UK voluntarily rather than trafficking as a problem and their work to help combat have their return enforced but if this option is refused it. then it will become necessary to enforce removal including In the light of this, on 18 October I visited Stop the the arrest and detention of those who refuse to comply. Traffik to hear about and discuss their work in establishing The agency is committed to making faster decisions community groups throughout the United Kingdom that are right first time but is also committed to ensuring aimed at actively raising awareness of the dangers of that speed is balanced with quality. human trafficking. In addition to this the UK Border Agency published Immigration: Pakistan updated guidance on trafficking and its revised guidance for competent authorities. Stella Creasy: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what plans she has for the future Vetting consideration of immigration applications from students and others who have been affected by the recent floods Anna Soubry: To ask the Secretary of State for the in Pakistan. [21422] Home Department what recent progress she has made on reviewing the effectiveness of the vetting and barring Damian Green: We will continue to assess visa scheme as a means of protecting children and vulnerable applications from Pakistan against the immigration rules. adults; and if she will make a statement. [21929] We will take into account any compelling compassionate circumstances when assessing individual visa applications, Lynne Featherstone: I refer my hon. Friend to the but we do not intend to relax the requirements. written ministerial statement made by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary on 22 October 2010, Official Immigration: Research Report, columns 77-78WS.

Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for the Visas: Pakistan Home Department what research her Department has (a) commissioned and (b) evaluated on the likely effects John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for the of the proposed immigration cap on (i) academic, scientific Home Department how many Pakistani citizens were and technological research and (ii) high-technology industry. refused visas (a) by her Department’s Abu Dhabi [21412] office in the 12 months since the opening of that office and (b) in the 12 months four years prior to that date. Damian Green [holding answer 2 November 2010]: [20963] We have made it clear that we want to continue attracting the brightest and the best to the UK. As part of this Damian Green: The UK Border Agency’s Visa Section commitment, my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary in Abu Dhabi assumed responsibility for processing all launched a consultation over the summer to ensure that non-settlement visa applications lodged in Pakistan on we gathered a wide range of views and evidence, before one November 2008. In the 12 months to 31 October announcing our plans for the first full annual limit. The 2009, a total of 40,612 visa applications from Pakistani consultation is now closed and we have received a high nationals were refused at the visa section. volume of responses which are being carefully assessed. The Government will announce its decisions in due The number of visa applications from Pakistani nationals course. that were refused at the visa section in Abu Dhabi in the each of the four years prior to 1 November 2008 is shown in the following table. The vast majority of these Members: Correspondence applications would have been lodged by Pakistani nationals resident in United Arab Emirates. Applications from Mr Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home those resident in Pakistan were processed in Islamabad. Department when she plans to reply to the letters of 4 August and 29 September 2010 from the hon. Member As at November to October Number for Basildon and Billericay, on a constituent, Mr S Deleay. 2004- 05 768 [20349] 2005- 06 762 2006- 07 799 James Brokenshire [holding answer 1 November 2010]: 2007- 08 444 I wrote to my hon. Friend on 4 November 2010. 881W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 882W

HEALTH Glen Eden, 45 Richmond Road, Worthing, BN11 4AF Forest View Nursing Home, 100-104 West Coker Road, Yeovil, Cancer: Health Services BA20 2JG Sherwood Lodge, 42 - 44 Stuart Road, Gillingham, ME7 4AD Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for Ollerton Manor Care Home, Wellow Road, Newark, NG22 Health what progress has been made on his Department’s 9AH1 review of the implementation of the National Institute 1 Closed under section 20 of the Care Standards Act 2000. for Health and Clinical Excellence Guidance on improving supportive and palliative care for adults with cancer; Community Hospitals and if he will make a statement. [21732]

Anne Milton: A review of progress undertaken by the Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for National Cancer Action Team (NCAT) in January 2010 Health what his policy is on the role of community showed that one cancer network out of 28 had fully hospitals in the NHS; and if he will make a statement. implemented the guidance. Of the 10 key priority areas, [21869] two had been implemented across all the networks and varying degrees of progress was reported in the remaining Mr Simon Burns: Community hospitals provide a areas. vital community resource to support patients in need of rehabilitation and recuperation, preventing unnecessary The two priority areas that have been implemented admissions to hospitals and supporting a rapid return across all cancer networks are: for all multidisciplinary to independence and good health. team staff to attend advanced communication skills training; and to have mechanisms in place to ensure The Government are committed to helping the national that the views of patients and carers are taken into health service work better by extending best practise on account in developing and evaluating cancer and palliative improving discharge from acute hospital and increasing care services. access to care and treatment in the community. A full report on the review of progress undertaken in Under our proposals for new commissioning January, together with an update on the progress made arrangements, general practitioners rather than primary since that evaluation, is scheduled to be published by care trust managers will decide how to use NHS resources the end of December. to get the best health care and outcomes for their patients. Since the publication of the Improving Outcomes Guidance (IOG) on Supportive and Palliative Care, other strategies have been published, such as the End of Dental Services Life Care Strategy, which have overtaken the IOG. NCAT will therefore not provide any further detailed Christopher Pincher: To ask the Secretary of State for monitoring of the implementation of this IOG. Health when he next plans to review his Department’s We are currently undertaking a review of the Cancer document Best Practice HTM 01-05 on dental surgeries; Reform Strategy to set the direction for cancer services and whether he has made a recent assessment of the for the next five years. The updated strategy, to be effectiveness of decontamination practices in dental published in the winter, will set out the future direction surgeries. [21246] for cancer services, including the future direction for the monitoring of IOGs. Mr Simon Burns: The Health Technical Memorandum (HTM) 01-05 is a living document and the Department Care Homes: Standards has made a commitment to update it to reflect new evidence as this becomes available. Further, a commitment John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for has been made review the entire document within two Health which residential care homes have been subject years of publication. Dental practices are required within to enforced closure by the Care Quality Commission essential quality requirements to have a plan in place to since the Commission was established. [21049] demonstrate how they will achieve best practice. The primary aim of the HTM 01-05 is to encourage practices Mr Simon Burns: The Care Quality Commission is to meet essential quality requirements and to encourage the independent regulator of health and adult social further progression and improvement. care providers in England. It has a range of enforcement The Department in partnership with the Health powers in relation to the registration of providers, including Protection Agency and the national health service have (in the most serious cases) closure of services. recently completed a Dental National Decontamination The care Quality Commission has provided the following Survey, the principal aim of which is to establish a information. baseline of the quality of local decontamination in The registration of eight care home providers has dental practices against the requirements in the HTM been subject to enforced cancellation by the Commission 01-05. A provisional report is expected in the next few since it became operational on 1 April 2009. One of weeks. these was an urgent cancellation under section 20 of the Care Standards Act 2000. These are: Departmental Visits Abroad 16 Burghley Road, London, NW5 1UE Kenilworth Residential Home, 13-14 Linton Road, Hastings, David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for TN34 1TW Health how much his Department spent on overseas Mervyn Lodge, 33 Ashby Road, DE15 OLQ visits for senior officials in the last 12 months for which Carleton House, 33 St Lawrence Avenue, Worthing, BN14 7JJ figures are available. [18409] 883W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 884W

Mr Simon Burns: The Department (excluding its We will shortly be publishing a new drug strategy, agency—Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory which will set out a new approach and greater ambition Agency) spent £415,686.88 on overseas visits by senior to tackling drugs dependency. It will set out an ambition officials in the financial year 2009-10. All travel is for a recovery focused system that is locally led and undertaken in accordance with the Civil Service supports individuals to tackle and overcome their Management Code. dependency, reduce the harm to themselves, their families Details of business expenses (included in the total and the wider community, and make a positive contribution above) and hospitality received for the Department’s to society. It will encourage local areas to deliver against directors general and above are available on the these outcomes drawing on the evidence of what works. Department’s website at: www.dh.gov.uk/en/Aboutus/MinistersandDepartment Leaders/ Health Services Departmentdirectors/DH_110759 Mr Brazier: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Drugs: Rehabilitation (1) how many patients were placed on the Liverpool Care Pathway in each year since 2004; and what proportion of such patients died in each such year; [19288] Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) which hospitals have introduced the Liverpool Health what his most recent estimate is of the number Care Pathway in each year since 2004; how many patients of people under the age of (a) 18 and (b) 16 years who in each such hospital were placed on the Pathway in are in abstinence-based rehabilitative treatment; and each such year; and how many patients in each hospital how many people in each age group were placed in placed on the Pathway died in each such year. [19289] such treatment in (i) 2008-09 and (ii) 2009-10. [17091] Paul Burstow: The Liverpool Care Pathway (LCP) Sarah Teather: I have been asked to reply. was developed by the Marie Curie Palliative Care Institute The overall aim of all substance misuse treatment for in Liverpool. It is an established and respected tool used young people is abstinence from their problem drug or to support care in the last hours or days of life. Its alcohol use. Youngpeople’s substance misuse is markedly purpose is to prevent dying patients from the distress of different to that of adults, and so is the combination of receiving treatment or tests that are no longer beneficial, treatment and support they receive. Most receive while ensuring that they receive appropriate interventions, psychosocial treatment—talking therapies to change including medication, to control their symptoms. behaviour and address the causes of drug or alcohol The Department does not collect information centrally misuse. The aim is to reduce or stop completely the about the numbers of patients being treated on the young person’s use. LCP, nor the numbers of hospitals who have introduced 24,053 young people under the age of 18 were in the LCP as a possible option for treating patients. treatment for drug or alcohol misuse in 2008-09. Of these, 11,259 were under the age of 16. These are the most recent figures available. Meat Hygiene Service

Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he has made of the outcome of Health what assessment he has made of the merits of his Department’s randomised injectable opiate treatment reviewing the (a) responsibilities and (b) efficiency of trials. [21274] the Meat Hygiene Service following its transfer to the Food Standards Agency. [21390] Anne Milton: Any approach that helps people get off drugs for good should be explored. The results of the Anne Milton: The Food Standards Agency (FSA) has randomised injectable opiate treatment trial were reported responsibility for delivering official controls in all approved in The Lancet on 28 May 2010. The report concluded fresh meat establishments in Great Britain under EC that in this group of entrenched users who had not Regulation 854/2004. It is not within the remit of the ″ responded to other forms of treatment, treatment with FSA to review its delivery responsibilities under this supervised injectable heroin leads to significantly lower legislation. use of street heroin than does supervised injectable methadone or optimised oral methadone″. In 2007 the Meat Hygiene Service (MHS) implemented a number of efficiency programmes. As a result of these In the light of these results, we have asked the Institute programmes the cost of delivering meat official controls of Psychiatry’s National Addiction Centre to carry out in Great Britain has reduced significantly from £91.3 further work in order to explore: million in 2006-07 to £68.1 million at the end of 2009-10, how to deliver a low-volume service such that it is accessible to and in Northern Ireland has reduced from £7.1 million a population which is relatively thinly-spread, given that patients in 2007-08 to £6.6 million at the end of 2009-10. Further need to travel to the clinic twice daily; savings of £0.6 million from the creation of the FSA’s the commissioning procedures appropriate to a service with Integrated Corporate Services will be attributed to corporate these constraints; support for meat official controls. Following the merger how referral pathways should operate; and with the MHS, the FSA has launched an Operations the case management that is necessary to ensure that people Programme to review all official controls delivered on progress as appropriate to less intensive treatment once they behalf of the FSA to maximise its efficiency and are stabilised. effectiveness. 885W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 886W

Medicine: Education did not contain proposals concerning courts in Warrington, except that should Runcorn county court close, Warrington Stephen Mosley: To ask the Secretary of State for county court would potentially need to increase its Health how many and what proportion of graduates of sitting days to absorb Runcorn’s hearings, which it has medical schools in (a) 2007, (b) 2008 and (c) 2009 the capacity to do. Runcorn county court is a civil emigrated in the year following completion of their hearing centre only with all its administrative work degree. [20715] handled at Warrington. The consultation closed on 15 September and we aim Anne Milton: This data is not collected centrally. to announce decisions by the end of the year. There are Soft Drinks no plans at present to further review the provision of court services in Warrington. Mrs Grant: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Departmental Public Expenditure what assessment his Department has made on the effect of high energy drinks on the health of (a) young children and (b) others; and if he will make a Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice statement. [21490] whether his Department has established processes to monitor any effects of proposed reductions in its Anne Milton: The Department has not made any expenditure. [21630] specific assessment on the effects of high energy drinks. Based on expert advice from the Committee on the Mr Kenneth Clarke: The Ministry of Justice routinely Medical Aspects of Food Policy, we recommend that monitors its expenditure and the outputs resulting from the intake of non-milk extrinsic sugars i.e. those added that spending and publishes this information on a regular to food should not exceed 60g/day or 11% of food basis, such as through published accounts, annual reports, energy. impact assessments and a wide range of statistical and Government advice discourages giving babies sugary research publications. drinks and food, and older children and families are Family Courts: Offenders encouraged to substitute sugary drinks with water, milk (ideally semi-skimmed), sugar free drinks, sugar free John Hemming: To ask the Secretary of State for squash, or unsweetened fruit juice. Justice how many people serving a custodial sentence Streptococcus: Health Services could not be identified in the media because of an injunction by the Family Court in the latest period for Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for which figures are available. [21503] Health what assessment his Department has made for benchmarking purposes of best practice in the treatment Mr Djanogly: Information on the number of people of group B streptococcal infections in other EU member serving a custodial sentence who cannot be identified states; and if he will make a statement. [21841] because of an injunction made by the Family Court is not available centrally. This information can be obtained Anne Milton: The treatment of group B streptococcal only by inspection of individual case files at disproportionate infection is a matter for clinicians and should be in line cost. with evidence-based clinical guidance such as those Legal Services Commission: Social Workers published by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence or in this case the Green Top guideline published by the Royal College of Obstetricians and Mr David: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Gynaecologists (RCOG) in November 2003. This guidance what representations he has received on the proposals can be found on the RCOG website at: of the Legal Services Commission to cap the fees payable to independent social workers appearing as expert witnesses www.rcog.org.uk/files/rcog-corp/uploaded-files/ GT36GroupBStrep2003.pdf in family courts. [21493] The Department does not undertake benchmarking Mr Djanogly: This change was consulted on as part of best practice in clinical treatment. of the joint Ministry of Justice (MoJ) and Legal Services Commission (LSC) consultation, “Family Legal Aid Funding from 2010”which took place between December JUSTICE 2008 and April 2009. Following the full public consultation, it was confirmed in the consultation response that payment Courts: Warrington for legally aided independent social work in public and Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice private law children cases would be capped to the same whether he plans to review the provision of court level as that paid by the Children and Family Court Advisory Service (CAFCASS). The consultation response services in Warrington. [21746] was published on 21 October 2009 and is available on Mr Djanogly: On 23 June, my right hon. Friend the the LSC website at: Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor https://consult.legalservices.gov.uk/inovem/consult.ti/ (Mr Clarke) announced proposals on the future provision FamilyFees2008/listdocuments of courts services across England and Wales. The Although both the LSC and the MoJ have continued consultation paper for the HMCS area of Cheshire and to receive additional representations from independent Merseyside, which can be found at: social workers about the change, it is considered that it http://www.justice.gov.uk/consultations/consultation-cp03- is not an effective use of public money for the LSC to 10.htm pay higher rates than those set by CAFCASS. 887W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 888W

Proceeds of Crime Proceeds of Crime Act legislation, of which £7.7 million has been returned to the victims of crime. Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what recent estimate he has made of £ Total amount recovered, the (a) cost to the public purse of receivers and (b) Compensation to the including compensation amount recovered through confiscation orders brought victims of Crime and Receivers’ fees about by the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002; and if he will make a statement. [22018] 2004-05 533,913 6,664,423 2005-06 861,011 18,578,401 Mr Djanogly: Receivers fees are paid from the amounts 2006-07 2,833,007 29,930,819 recovered from criminals, therefore no amount is paid 2007-08 4,735,859 52,779,042 from the public purse. However, prior to 1 October 2008-09 6,955,176 61,483,968 2010, prosecution agencies had to pay indemnities to 2009-10 9,782,640 63,984,361 the Receivers if the amount collected was less than their Total 25,701,606 233,421,014 fees. For example, the CPS paid £112,333 during 2008-09 This data was extracted from the Joint Asset Recovery and £29,875 during 2009-10. Following the new Database (JARD), as at 1 November 2010. No central procurement process for Receivers that came into effect database was present prior to 2004-05, so prior data is on 1 October 2010, the contract no longer includes unavailable. indemnities for Receivers, therefore no Receivers fees will be paid from the public purse. Sentencing HMCS pays all Receivers fees. The following table records how much has been paid on a regional basis Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice during the last two financial years. pursuant to the answer of 25 October 2010, Official Report, columns 41-43W,on sentencing, for what categories £ of offence those with 15 or more convictions who did HMCS region 2008-09 2009-10 not receive an immediate custodial sentence had been convicted; and how many such offenders had received London 632,210 984,624 (a) between 16 and 25, (b) between 26 and 50, (c) Midlands 366,362 719,451 between 51 and 75, (d) between 76 and 100 and (e) 101 North East 197,986 91,806 or more convictions. [21260] North West 359,781 443,248 South East 886,742 393,371 Mr Blunt: Table 1 shows offence categories for offenders South West 212,872 151,523 with 15 or more convictions or cautions who did not Wales 252,739 316,180 receive an immediate custodial sentence. Table 2 shows Total 2,908,692 3,100,203 the number of offenders who were sentenced for indictable offences by number of previous convictions and cautions. For the period 2004-05 to 2009-10 a total of £233.4 These figures are derived from table 6.2 of ’Sentencing million has been recovered using confiscation orders Statistics: England and Wales 2009’ which was published under the Proceeds of Crime Act, of which £25.7 million on 21 October 2010. The published table gives a breakdown has been returned to the victims of crime. of offenders sentenced by number of previous convictions For the period from 1 April 2010 to 31 October 2010, and cautions, and the same basis has been used for this a total of £42 million has been recovered using the answer.

Table 1: Number of offenders with 15 or more convictions or cautions who did not receive an immediate custodial sentence for an indictable offence by offence category, England and Wales, 2007-09 Number of offenders 2007 2008 2009

Violence against the person 4,036 4,257 4,677 Sexual offences 112 130 111 Burglary 3,018 3,172 2,980 Robbery 81 122 100 Theft and handling stolen goods 24,825 29,025 31,289 Fraud and forgery 1,131 1,195 1,232 Criminal damage 1,119 1,040 1,018 Drug offences 6,606 8,061 9,205 Indictable motoring offences 204 188 169 Other indictable offences 6,517 6,307 5,890 Total 47,649 53,497 56,671

Table 2: Number of offenders who were sentenced for indictable offences by number of previous convictions and cautions, England and Wales, 2007-09 Number and percentage of offenders 2007 2008 2009

Number of offenders sentenced 0 to 15 previous convictions/cautions 240,032 242,477 238,091 16 to 25 previous convictions/cautions 42,032 45,742 44,772 26 to 50 previous convictions/cautions 27,761 32,792 34,068 889W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 890W

Table 2: Number of offenders who were sentenced for indictable offences by number of previous convictions and cautions, England and Wales, 2007-09 Number and percentage of offenders 2007 2008 2009

51 to 75 previous convictions/cautions 2,911 3,677 4,389 76 to 100 previous convictions/cautions 624 824 817 101 or more previous convictions/cautions 478 644 747 All offenders 313,838 326,156 322,884

Number of offenders who do not receive an immediate custodial sentence 0 to15 previous convictions/cautions 185,382 184,983 184,263 16 to 25 previous convictions/cautions 25,287 27,504 28,105 26 to 50 previous convictions/cautions 16,367 19,180 20,913 51 to 75 previous convictions/cautions 1,605 2,091 2,660 76 to 100 previous convictions/cautions 334 445 455 101 or more previous convictions/cautions 243 340 385 All offenders 229,218 234,543 236,781

Percentage of offenders who do no receive an immediate custodial sentence 0 to 15 previous convictions/cautions 77.2 76.3 77.4 16 to 25 previous convictions/cautions 60.2 60.1 62.8 26 to 50 previous convictions/cautions 59.0 58.5 61.4 51 to 75 previous convictions/cautions 55.1 56.9 60.6 76 to 100 previous convictions/cautions 53.5 54.0 55.7 101 or more previous convictions/cautions 50.8 52.8 51.5 All offenders 73.0 71.9 73.3

The figures have been drawn from the police’s to acquire a taste for being elected representatives, administrative IT system, the police national computer, encouraging them onto a path which may lead towards which, as with any large scale recording system, is becoming candidates for election to Parliament. subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. The figures are provisional and subject to change as more information is recorded by the police. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Armed Forces: Accommodation HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Parliamentary Education Service Energy and Climate Change whether he plans to take steps to ensure the take-up of the Green Deal in respect of service family accommodation. [18334] Jo Swinson: To ask the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, representing the House of Commons Commission, Gregory Barker: In developing the Green Deal, which pursuant to the answer of 26 October 2010, Official is to be introduced in 2012, we will work to ensure that Report, columns 176-7W,on the Parliamentary Education all households are eligible to take up offers which can Service, for what reasons the House of Commons increase the energy efficiency of their homes. Commission did not accept recommendation 4 of the report of the Speaker’s Conference on parliamentary Civil Nuclear Constabulary representation. [21743] Christopher Pincher: To ask the Secretary of State for Sir Stuart Bell: Recommendation 4 of the report of Energy and Climate Change if he will make an the Speaker’s Conference on parliamentary representation assessment of the merits of transferring responsibility recommended that the objectives of the Parliamentary for the Civil Nuclear Constabulary to the Secretary of Education Service should in future include encouraging State for the Home Department. [21245] a wider range of people to become candidates for election to Parliament. Charles Hendry: The Department has policy The objectives of the Education Service do not need responsibility for the security of the UK’s civil nuclear to be changed as encouraging a wider range of people industry, and this includes responsibility for the Civil to become candidates, alongside encouraging other forms Nuclear Police Authority and Civil Nuclear Constabulary. of democratic engagement, can already be effected under The Department’s responsibility for the safety of civil existing objectives. The answer given on 26 October nuclear power stations in the UK, and for ensuring the highlighted the MP for a week game and the UK Youth security and resilience of the energy sector as a whole, Parliament as examples where this is done directly. means that DECC is best placed to effectively discharge There are many other examples, such as the Speaker’s Government’s responsibility for the Civil Nuclear Schools Council awards scheme, where Parliament’s Constabulary. The Department keeps the arrangements Education Service helps a wide range of young people for security in the civil nuclear industry under continuous 891W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 892W review to ensure they are robust and effective, and Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for works closely with other Departments with an interest Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has in security issues, including the Home Office. made of the merits of including schemes for micro- My right hon. Friends the Secretary of State and the combined heat and power technology fuelled by (a) gas Home Secretary are both members of the National and (b) liquefied petroleum gas in the proposed Green Security Council (NSC) that was established on 12 May Deal; and if he will make a statement. [22354] by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and has been tasked with overseeing all issues related to national Gregory Barker: It is intended that a range of energy security, intelligence co-ordination, and defence strategy, saving measures, which are expected to pay for themselves and of its nuclear sub-committee, NSC(N). This structure over a set period of time through savings on energy ensures that important security issues can be considered bills, will qualify for green deal finance under the Green by all relevant Ministers from across Government. Deal for businesses. Decisions on the specific measures and technologies which will be eligible for green deal finance will be taken in due course. Climate Change: Carbon Emissions Nuclear Fuels: Transport Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what recent progress his Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for Department has made on the reduction of UK climate Energy and Climate Change if he will discuss with the change emissions. [22000] Secretary of State for the Home Department an increase in the level of security provided for the transport of Gregory Barker: Latest provisional statistics indicate nuclear materials by train through densely-populated that the UK’s greenhouse gas emissions have fallen by residential areas in the West Midlands. [21700] just over 24% against 1990 levels by 20091, taking into account the effects of emissions trading. Final emissions Charles Hendry: The Department has policy data for 2009 will be published in February 2011. Further responsibility for the security of the UK’s civil nuclear information can be found in the independent Committee industry, which includes the security of nuclear material on Climate Change’s latest annual report on progress in transit. Regulation in this area reflects the UK’s towards meeting our carbon budgets, published on international obligations and best practice, and is enforced 30 June , and the Government’s response (published by the independent security regulator, the Office for 14 October 2010). Both publications are available in the Civil Nuclear Security (OCNS). The Department keeps Libraries of the House. the arrangements for the security of the transportation 1 Source: of civil nuclear material under continuous review to ensure they are robust and effective, and works closely http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/Statistics/climate_change/ 332-1990-2009-provisional-progress-data.pdf with other Departments with an interest in security issues, including the Home Office. My right hon. Friends the Secretary of State and the Liquid Petroleum Gas Home Secretary are both members of the National Security Council (NSC) that was established on 12 May Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and has Energy and Climate Change what information his been tasked with overseeing all issues related to national Department holds on the net length of time micro- security, intelligence co-ordination, and defence strategy, combined heat and power technology fuelled by (a) gas and of its nuclear sub-committee, NSC(N). This structure and (b) liquefied petroleum gas can contribute to carbon ensures that important security issues can be considered dioxide emission reduction in respect of an energy by all relevant Ministers from across Government. generation system decarbonising over time. [22353] Public Expenditure Gregory Barker: This issue was raised in consultation as part of the Heat and Energy Saving Strategy consultation. Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy The analysis of responses in September 2009 indicated and Climate Change whether his Department has that there was no clear answer to the question of the established processes to monitor any effects of proposed degree to which combined heat and power powered by reductions in its expenditure. [21634] fossil fuel will be less advantageous as electricity generation overall becomes less carbon intensive, Gregory Barker: DECC will shortly publish a Business because this is likely to depend on a range of factors, Plan which will contain information on the Department’s particularly the overall energy mix, carbon intensity, priorities over the next four years and includes information and the nature of infrastructure and design. It will also about areas that are no longer priorities. Further, the depend on the kind of heating system the micro-CHP Business Plan will provide indicators that can be used to unit is replacing. monitor DECC’s performance on both delivery and The Department has published guidance on its website costs. on how to value energy use and greenhouse gas emissions It is also the case that the Treasury published an over time for the purposes of business cases and impact Equality Impact Assessment of the spending review, assessment. This includes assumptions about the rate of detailing the impact of the cuts on specific groups decarbonisation of the electricity generation system. within society. DECC will continue to ensure that the The Committee on Climate Change has also carried out decisions it makes are fair by undertaking Equality modelling work in this area. Impact Assessments on its policies. 893W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 894W

Wind and Nuclear Power Mr Paice: As the vast majority of the over £3 billion of payments made each year to UK farmers are direct Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for payments made under Pillar 1 of the EU common Energy and Climate Change what the average cost is of agriculture policy, we do not anticipate that the spending a unit of energy generated through (a) wind power and review will have a significant effect on levels of financial (b) nuclear power. [21264] support for farming. Expenditure on the Rural Development Programme for England will be maintained Charles Hendry: The table, which will be placed in the over the spending review period. Library, is taken from Mott Macdonald (2010) and Common Agricultural Policy gives levelised cost estimates (average generation cost per megawatt-hour) for new build plants in the main large-scale electricity generation technologies in the UK, Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for including onshore wind, offshore wind and nuclear, at Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent current engineering, procurement and construction (EPC) progress has been made in negotiations on reform of contract prices, and is available at: the common agricultural policy; and if she will make a statement. [21655] http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/Statistics/Projections/71- uk-electricity-generation-costs-update-.pdf Mrs Spelman: The UK is committed to ambitious It should be noted that for the purposes of presentation, reform of the common agricultural policy (CAP) that the table only gives either “FOAK” (first-of-a-kind) delivers good value for farmers, taxpayers, consumers prices or “NOAK” (nth-of-a-kind) prices for each and the environment. A future CAP must enable a technology. sustainable, thriving and competitive EU agriculture As new technologies are deployed it is likely that and food sector that is able to rise to the challenges and costs will fall due to learning. The second table, also opportunities of the future. Negotiations on CAP will being placed in the Library, sets out the estimated begin formally in the context of a Communication levelised costs for projects started in 2017 with the which we expect to be published by the Commission in assumption that all technologies have reached “Nth of November. a kind” status. It shows the expectation that new nuclear will cost approximately £68/MWh. Offshore wind and Common Fisheries Policy onshore wind are estimated to cost approximately £112/ MWh and £86/MWh respectively. Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, It should be noted that the estimates of levelised costs Food and Rural Affairs what recent assessment she has for different types of electricity generation are highly made of progress on reform of the Common Fisheries sensitive to the assumptions used for capital costs, fuel Policy; and if she will make a statement. [21659] and EU ETS allowance prices, operating costs, load Richard Benyon: The EU Commission’s 2009 Green factor, and other drivers, meaning that there is significant Paper provides a compelling case for radical reform of uncertainty around these estimates. the current common fisheries policy; changes that simplify and decentralise fisheries management, enabling those closest to fisheries to plan for the long term, and giving ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS fishermen greater incentive to fish sustainably. We expect the Commission to publish draft proposals next spring. Agriculture: Competitiveness We are working with other member states, and interested parties, to build support for reform ahead of negotiations Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for next year. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps her Department is taking to assist the farming industry to Departmental Public Expenditure become more competitive. [21651] Dr Phillip Lee: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Paice: In England we are encouraging the farming Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what mechanisms industry to increase its competitiveness through capital are in place to ensure that her Department’s decisions investment, skills development, innovation and technical on regional funding allocations are based on the most progress. recent available population data. [20693] We are also identifying ways to reduce the regulatory burden through the Task Force on Farm Regulation, Richard Benyon: The Department is a contributor to pushing for CAP reform to improve the industry’s the regional development agency single pot. Population ability to respond to consumer demand, providing rural data were used as a factor shaping funding allocations development grants, funding research into efficient food to RDAs following spending review 2007 and before. production and working with industry on skill development Allocations to RDAs following conclusion of spending and climate change issues. review 2010 will be determined shortly but are likely to be based on the levels of legal commitment and anticipated Agriculture: Subsidies closure costs.

Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Flood Control: Finance Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment she has made of the effects on levels of financial support Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for for farming from the public purse of the outcome of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment comprehensive spending review. [21647] she has made of the effect of the outcome of the 895W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 896W comprehensive spending review on her Department’s Justine Greening: I have been asked to reply. budget for flood defences in each year from 2011-12 to The increases in air passenger duty that took effect 2014-15. [21642] on 1 November were set and legislated by the previous Government. The increase in tax on a flight from London Richard Benyon: By March 2015, we will have spent to Beijing is around 5% of the typical economy class at least £2.1 billion on flood and coastal erosion risk return ticket price. management, and as a result expect to deliver better The coalition Government believes that trade and levels of protection for around 145,000 households. tourism are hugely beneficial to both the UK and Forests: Finance China. Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for Thameslink: Government Assistance Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether the proposed £100 million funding to international forestry Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for projects announced at the UN Biodiversity conference Transport if he will continue his Department’s subsidy in Nagoya is to be paid in addition to the commitment for Thameslink users who are required to use made to such projects after the 2009 Copenhagen Transport for London services to reach Moorgate climate change conference. [21498] station. [21363]

Mr Paice [holding answer 3 November 2010]: The Mrs Villiers: Following the closure of the Farringdon- spending review provides £2.9 billion of international Moorgate branch on 22 March 2009 as part of the climate finance (called the International Climate Fund) Thameslink Programme, through fares to Moorgate over the spending review period. This fully funds, and were protected for two years from this date. This goes beyond, the £1.5 billion commitment made by the commitment therefore ends on 21 March 2011. previous Government at Copenhagen for the ’fast start’ period (2010-12). The ICF will include money for reducing deforestation, building on the £300 million announced for that purpose BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS at Copenhagen. Detailed allocations of the ICF have yet to be finalised, but will include the £100 million for Broadband: Schools DEFRA, which goes beyond the Copenhagen Commitment, covering the period to 2014-15. Anne Marie Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for The ICF is part of the UK’s commitment to increase Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has had its overseas development assistance to 0.7% of Gross discussions with the Secretary of State for Education National Income by 2013. on ensuring that schools have access to high speed broadband services. [21391] Landfill Mr Vaizey [holding answer 2 November 2010]: The Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Secretary of State for BIS (Vince Cable) has not had Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions recent discussions with the Secretary of State for Education she has had with the Secretary of State for Communities (Michael Gove) on ensuring that schools have access to and Local Government on the likely effects of the high speed broadband services. Connectivity for schools outcome of the comprehensive spending review on the is the responsibility of Department for Education. Virtually funding available to reduce the amount of waste going all schools have broadband connectivity already. to landfill. [21663] Chinese Paper Lanterns Mrs Spelman: We have worked closely with the Department for Communities and Local Government to understand cost pressures on local authority waste Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for management over the spending review period and have Business, Innovation and Skills if he will bring forward taken these into account in the overall local government proposals to regulate the sale and use of Chinese paper settlement. lanterns. [21165] We have significantly increased financial flexibility Mr Davey [holding answer 1 November 2010]: We which will free local authorities to allocate resources to have received no recent representations specifically meet their priorities and make continued efficiency concerning the safety instructions on sky lanterns. savings, while continuing to deliver our overall environmental goals for waste management. However, BIS and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, are aware of the broader safety concerns with these products. In August, BIS wrote to local authority trading standards services, asking them TRANSPORT to make importers aware that some sky lanterns lacked Aviation: China full instructions, and encouraging them to get manufacturers to address this problem. Mark Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what assessment he has made of the likely Debt Management: Licensing effects on the Government’s programmes to increase trade and tourism between the UK and China of the Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, 100% increase in air passenger duty to come into force Innovation and Skills how many actions the Office of on 1 November 2010. [21188] Fair Trading has taken to impose requirements or refuse 897W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 898W or revoke licenses held or applied for by debt management September to discuss the closure of the regional businesses under its powers under the Consumer Credit development agencies and the creation of local enterprise Act 1974 in 2010 to date. [22015] partnerships. The new delivery structure for the European regional development fund in England is planned to be Mr Davey: This year to date the OFT has imposed announced at Budget 2011. requirements on three licensees engaged in debt management activities, revoked one licence held by a licensee engaged in debt management activities and Fossil Fuels: Export Credit Guarantees refused to grant a licence to one applicant that proposed to engage in debt management activities. The OFT has Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for also made a determination to revoke the licence of one Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer other licensee engaged in debt management activities, of 22 June 2010, Official Report, column 190W, on which is subject to an appeal to the First Tier Tribunal. fossil fuels: export credits guarantees, what definition Adjudicators acting on behalf of the OFT also made of dirty fossil-fuel energy production his Department three determinations favourable to the trader, which uses. [4580] resulted in two licensees engaged in debt management activities being permitted to continue to retain their Mr Davey: ECGD acts in accordance with the OECD licences and one to be granted a licence. During the Revised Council Recommendation on Common adjudication process one licensee engaged in debt Approaches on the Environment and Officially Supported management activities surrendered its licence and one Export Credits (the Common Approaches) regarding applicant for a licence withdrew its application. One the potential environmental impacts of projects. The further minded to notice is yet to be determined. The Common Approaches states that: OFT has also warned 63 traders about unlicensed trading or failing to adhere to the Debt Management Guidance. “Projects are expected to meet the international standards against which they have been benchmarked where these are more The primary focus this year has been the OFT’s stringent than host country standards.” review of compliance with its Debt Management Guidance, For new coal-fired power generation projects this would which was published on 28 September 2010, and subsequent mean compliance with the World Bank Group’s enforcement action (additional to that detailed above) Environmental, Health and Safety Guidelines for Thermal to warn 129 debt management firms about non-compliant Power Plants. These EHS Guidelines require emissions business practices identified during the review. The to be abated to below set numeric limits for particulate firms were instructed to produce independently audited matter, sulphur dioxide and nitrogen oxides. They also evidence confirming action that they have taken to provide data on typical carbon dioxide emissions for address the identified areas of non-compliance by mid- various combustion technologies/equipment. December 2010. Of the 129 firms, 22 have already surrendered their licences, 92 firms have agreed to comply The Common Approaches is currently under review and the OFT has initiated revocation action against 15 by the OECD Export Credits Group and the UK is traders, but this may well increase. exploring with other countries the opportunity for incorporating numeric emissions limits for carbon dioxide. Departmental Official Hospitality

Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Green Investment Bank Innovation and Skills how much his Department spent on hospitality for events hosted by each Minister in his Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Department in (a) September and (b) October 2010. Innovation and Skills what legal framework he plans to [21801] establish to govern the operations of the proposed Green Investment Bank. [22105] Mr Davey: There has been no spend on hospitality for events hosted by BIS Ministers during this period Mr Prisk: The Green Investment Bank’s legislative The following amounts refer only to costs for refreshments requirements, if any, will depend on the nature of its at meetings. final design. The Government aim to conduct further (a) September 2010: £38.84 in total. market testing and to complete their design work by (b) October 2010: £0. spring 2011. EU Grants and Loans Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has made of the Innovation and Skills what recent discussions he has total cost to the public purse of establishing the had with the European Commission on the administration proposed Green Investment Bank. [22107] of European Regional Development Funding bidding rounds following the closure of regional development Mr Prisk: The Green Investment Bank (GIB) will be agencies; and if he will make a statement. [22086] initially capitalised with £1 billion of funding allocated from departmental budgets together with additional Mr Prisk: The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation significant proceeds from the sale of Government-owned and Skills (Vince Cable) has had no recent discussions assets. with the European Commission on the administration Government will also incur costs in setting up the of European regional development. However, I met GIB, and will provide further information on the quantum with EU Regional Commissioner Johannes Hahn on 28 of these costs in due course. 899W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 900W

Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Mr Willetts: The latest available information from Innovation and Skills when he expects to make a the Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) is shown decision on the location of the headquarters of the in the table. Figures for the 2009/10 academic year will proposed Green Investment Bank. [22108] be available in January 2011. Humanities, arts and social sciences covers the following Mr Prisk: Decisions on the location of the Green subject groups: Social Sciences, Law, Business and Investment Bank will be taken in due course. Its final Administrative Studies, Mass Communications and design will be subject to the Government’s tests of Documentation, Languages, Historical and Philosophical effectiveness, affordability and transparency. However, Studies, Creative Arts and Design, Education and we are not anticipating the creation of a large institution Combined subjects. with high overheads. Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, covers the following subject groups: Medicine and Dentistry, Innovation and Skills what mechanism he plans to put Subjects Allied to Medicine, Biological Sciences, Veterinary in place to provide for appointments to the board of Science, Agriculture and Related Subjects, Physical Sciences, Mathematical Sciences, Computer Science, Engineering the proposed Green Investment Bank. [22109] and Technology, Architecture, Building and Planning. Mr Prisk: Governance arrangements will depend on Undergraduate enrolments by gender and subject of study: English higher decisions around the design of the Green Investment education institutions, academic year 2008/09 Humanities, Arts and Social Science, Technology, Bank. Sciences1 Engineering and Mathematics2 Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Gender Number Percentage Number Percentage Innovation and Skills which (a) public and (b) private bodies he expects to contribute funding to projects Female 558,230 62 340,990 38 Male 353,665 54 303,640 46 through the proposed Green Investment Bank. [22110] 1 Covers the following subject groups: Social Sciences, Law, Business and Administrative Studies, Mass Communications and Documentation, Languages, Mr Prisk: I refer the hon. Member to the Chancellor’s Historical and Philosophical Studies, Creative Arts and Design, Education and spending review statement of 20 October. Combined subjects. 2 Covers the following subject groups: Medicine and Dentistry, subjects allied to As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer Medicine, Biological Sciences, Veterinary Science, Agriculture and Related had announced, we will be funding the Green Investment Subjects, Physical Sciences, Mathematical Sciences, Computer Science, Engineering and Technology, Architecture, Building and Planning. Bank from £1 billion of departmental budgets, as well Note: as from additional significant proceeds from Government’s Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population and have been asset sales. rounded to the nearest five. Source: Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions his Department Local Enterprise Partnerships: Finance had with the devolved administrations prior to his announcement of proposals to establish a Green Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Investment Bank. [22111] Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what estimate he has made of the funding to be made available to local Mr Prisk: We are looking to create a Green Investment enterprise partnerships in each of the next three years; Bank with powers to invest across the UK. We will engage widely, including with the devolved administrations, as [22462] we undertake detailed market testing and design work. (2) what potential sources of funding he has identified for local enterprise partnerships other than Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, the Regional Growth Fund. [22463] Innovation and Skills whether he commissioned advice from outside his Department when developing Mr Prisk: The availability of funding to support proposals for the Green Investment Bank. [22112] economic growth, including through local enterprise partnerships, is covered in the White Paper on Local Mr Prisk: We have worked closely with other Growth. No funding is expected to be allocated specifically Government Departments on the development of these for local enterprise partnerships. proposals, including the Department for Energy and Climate Change, Department of Environment, Food Newton Scholarship Programme and Rural Affairs, HM Treasury, Department for Transport, Department of Communities and Local Government, Cabinet Office and Infrastructure UK. Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has for Higher Education: Admissions the future status of the Newton Scholarship Programme; and if he will make a statement. [21212] Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many and what Mr Willetts: On 17 June the Chief Secretary to the proportion of (a) women and (b) men are studying Treasury announced that a number of unfunded projects undergraduate courses in (i) humanities, arts and social would be cancelled or suspended. This included the science subjects and (ii) science, technology, engineering Newton Scholarships, on which any future decision will and mathematics subjects at universities in England. now be taken during the detailed allocation process [20964] following the recent spending review settlement. 901W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 902W

Radio Frequencies Students: Kent

Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Grant: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Business, Innovation and Skills in which calendar year Innovation and Skills what estimate he has made of the he expects the 800 and 2.6 spectrum auctions to take number of students educated in Maidstone and the place. [21868] Weald constituency who attended university in the last 12 months. [21488] Mr Vaizey: Ofcom will be responsible for the auctioning of this spectrum and they are required to go through a Mr Willetts: Figures for higher education entrants process to do so. I would hope that this process might who were educated in Maidstone and the Weald are not be concluded by the end of 2011, but it is possible that it available. As an alternative, figures for entrants to higher could fall into the first half of 2012. education (HE) who were resident in Maidstone and the Weald have been provided as an alternative. The latest available information from the Higher Research Councils Education Statistics Agency (HESA) relates to the 2008/09 academic year. Figures for the 2009/10 academic year will be available in January 2011. Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how much his In the 2008/09 academic year, there were 1,190 Department allocated to each research council in each undergraduate entrants to UK higher education institutions year since 2005. [21214] who were resident in Maidstone and the Weald. The Department has recently received updated parliamentary constituency data therefore figures may not match those Mr Willetts: The allocations to each research council previously published. Figures for entrants to HE level in each year since 2005 are set out in the following courses at further education colleges are not available publications: by parliamentary constituency, and are therefore excluded. Science Budget Allocations 2005/06 to 2007/08—published in May 2005 by the DTI. University Enterprise Capital Fund The Allocations of the Science Budget 2008/09 to 2010/11— published in December 2007 by DIUS. Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has for the future status of the University Enterprise Capital Small Businesses: Kent Fund; and if he will make a statement. [21213]

Mrs Grant: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Mr Willetts: The Government are committed to the Innovation and Skills what plans he has to support continuance of the Enterprise Capital Fund programme small and medium-sized enterprises in Maidstone and that supports investments for the highest growth potential the Weald constituency. [21489] small businesses in the ’equity gap’. The spending review settlement will allow us to commit a further £200 million to new Enterprise Capital Funds over the coming four Mr Prisk: I am pleased to be able to report a number years. The Government’s expert small business investment of measures which are being undertaken with the purpose arm, Capital for Enterprise Ltd, have a pipeline of of stimulating growth which are particularly targeting potential new Enterprise Capital Funds with whom support for small and medium sized enterprises. they are in discussion and they anticipate the first of The Government will provide highly focused support these to be investing early in the new year. There are a to SMEs through a renewed and streamlined portfolio number of potential university focussed propositions of business improvement products to be launched by among that pipeline which will be considered as they this Department in April 2011. come to fruition. As the RDAs are decommissioned I will introduce a new and flexible delivery system comprising a national website, a national contact centre and access to mentors. SCOTLAND I also intend to establish a network of Growth Hubs in Departmental Official Hospitality England to support those businesses with high growth potential. Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland We are establishing Local Enterprise Partnerships how much his Department spent on hospitality for (LEPs) as set out in the White Paper. Maidstone and events hosted by each of its Ministers in (a) September the Weald will be covered by a new LEP for Kent, and (b) October 2010. [21789] Greater Essex and East Sussex. This will involve local business and civic leaders working together to drive David Mundell: Scotland Office expenditure on hospitality economic growth and create new jobs in their communities. for events hosted by each Minister is as follows:

In addition, the Government will commit an extra £ £200 million to Enterprise Capital Funds which enable September October firms to sell debt in exchange for a stake in the business. I also will be working towards removing any qualification The Secretary of State for Scotland 22 384.12 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary 0 37.50 barriers that prevent small firms from accessing Government of State for Scotland contracts. 903W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 904W

All expenditure incurred is in accordance with the (2) what consultation he has undertaken with trade principles of Managing Public Money and the Treasury unions on procedures for making compulsory redundancies handbook on Regularity and Propriety. in the Central Office of Information. [20603] Departmental Reviews Mr Maude: I have asked the chief executive of the COI to write to the hon. Member. Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland Letter from Mark Lund, dated 1st November 2010: what departmental policy reviews his Department has As Chief Executive of the Central Office of Information undertaken since 6 May 2010; on what date each such (COI), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question review (a) was announced and (b) is expected to 020602/3 regarding the compulsory redundancy scheme, which publish its findings; what estimate he has made of the was mitigated by the voluntary applications recently undertaken cost of each such review; who has been appointed to by COI. lead each such review; to what remuneration each review 236 applications for voluntary redundancy were received in September and October 2010. leader is entitled; how many (i) full-time equivalent civil COI is not aware however of any consultation that has taken servants and (ii) seconded staff are working on each place between the Minister for the Cabinet Office and the trade such review; from which organisations such staff have unions regarding this compulsory redundancy scheme. been seconded; and how much on average such seconded staff will be paid for their work on the review. [21876] NORTHERN IRELAND David Mundell: The Scotland Office has not undertaken any such departmental policy reviews since 6 May 2010. Departmental Official Hospitality Departmental Travel Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how much his Department spent on Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland hospitality for events hosted by each of its Ministers in what estimate his Department has made of its (a) September and (b) October 2010. [21787] expenditure on travel undertaken by (a) him and (b) each other Minister in his Department in (i) September Mr Paterson: The total amount spent was as follows: and (ii) October 2010. [21853] September: £1,283.49 October: £1,018.03. David Mundell: Scotland Office estimated expenditure on travel undertaken by Ministers in September and October 2010 is as follows: WALES

£ Unemployment September October Dr Francis: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales The Secretary of State for Scotland 719.72 894.85 what discussions she has had with the Secretary of State The Parliamentary Under Secretary Nil 601.59 for Work and Pensions on transport for unemployed of State for Scotland people seeking work in remote rural and valley areas in Wales; and if she will make a statement. [20053] All ministerial travel is undertaken fully in accordance with the rules set out in the Ministerial Code and Travel Mr David Jones: My right hon. Friend has meetings by Ministers. with Ministers in the Department for Work and Pensions about a range of issues relevant to Wales. Welfare State: Reform It is an integral part of the role of advisers in Jobcentre Plus to take account of local transport issues when Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for advising unemployed people seeking work on the options Scotland what assessment he has made of the likely available. All claimants should be willing to take effects on people in Scotland of the Government’s employment within a reasonable travel to work area. proposed reductions in welfare expenditure. [22074] The local travel to work area is determined by each individual Jobcentre, taking into account the availability Michael Moore: The Government’s welfare reforms of local transport facilities. aim to create a system that supports those who need it, helps people back into work and makes work pay. Details have been laid out in the comprehensive spending ATTORNEY-GENERAL review and more information will follow as the Government develops their Work programme. Departmental Redundancy Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Attorney-General (1) how much funding to meet staff redundancy costs was CABINET OFFICE identified in the settlement letter for the Law Officers’ Departments in respect of the Comprehensive Spending Central Office of Information: Redundancy Review; [21505] (2) what estimate he has made of the number of Alison Seabeck: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet redundancies arising from the spending reductions Office (1) how many applications the Central Office of proposed in the Comprehensive Spending Review in Information received for voluntary redundancy in the respect of (a) the Law Officers’ Departments and (b) last two months; [20602] their non-departmental public bodies; [21506] 905W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 906W

(3) what estimate he has made of the cost to the Law TREASURY Officers’ Departments of staff redundancy in each of the next four years. [21507] Community Investment Tax Relief

The Solicitor-General: All pressures on Departments’ Dr Thérèse Coffey: To ask the Chancellor of the budgets were taken into account as part of the spending Exchequer whether he plans to bring forward review and settlements were allocated accordingly. The proposals to extend access to community investment full costs of any redundancies will be met from within tax relief; and if he will make a statement. [21382] the Law Officers’ Departments’ spending review resource DEL settlement. That settlement covers all of the Mr Gauke: Community investment tax relief (CITR) departments for which the Attorney-General is is an approved state aid, with the period of approval responsible—namely, the Crown Prosecution Service running from 2002 to 2012. It has raised funds which (CPS), the Serious Fraud Office (SFO), the Treasury have been lent to businesses, in or serving, disadvantaged Solicitor’s Department, HM Crown Prosecution Service areas. As CITR nears the end of its current state aid Inspectorate, the Attorney-General’s Office and the approval, the Government will review the operation of National Fraud Authority. the scheme and will announce its intentions for the Determining optimal work force reforms in order to future at the appropriate time. live within the Law Officers’ Departments’ spending review resource DEL settlement will be an ongoing Crown Lands and Estates: Wind Power process. The Crown Prosecution Service—which represents the most significant share of the Law Officers’ Departments’ Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the overall budget—has already set out plans to reduce Exchequer if he will bring forward proposals to cap numbers in its headquarters directorates by 50%, and payments made by the Crown Estate to the Royal this process has already begun. These reductions are Family in respect of the development of wind farms for expected to be substantially met by natural wastage but the purposes of allocating additional revenue to the there could be a small number of voluntary redundancies. (a) Green Investment Bank and (b) New Green Deal However, detailed decisions regarding the number of Fund. [21285] redundancies that may be required overall—and the associated costs—have yet to be finalised. Justine Greening: The Chancellor’s statement of 20 October set out that the future payments to the Royal Household will be voted in the Treasury estimate, not made direct by the Crown Estate. Primary legislation to give effect to this decision will be brought forward and Human Trafficking: Prosecutions debated in due course.

Mr Bone: To ask the Attorney-General in how many Excise Duties: Fuels prosecutions undertaken by the Crown Prosecution (a) Service a person was charged with offences Mr MacNeil: To ask the Chancellor of the (b) related to human trafficking and such charges were Exchequer whether his proposals to pilot a rural fuel reduced to lesser charges in each of the last five years. discount scheme will include the Isle of Skye. [22053] [21736] Justine Greening: I refer the hon. Member to the The Solicitor-General: The Crown Prosecution Service’s answer given to the right hon. Member for North records show that, in the last five years, the following Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) on 20 October 2010, prosecutions have been brought on charges under Official Report, column 809W and the hon. Member on sections 57, 58 and 59 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, 1 November 2010, Official Report, columns 663-64W. alleging trafficking for the purposes of sexual exploitation and section 4 of the Asylum and Immigration (Treatment Personal Income of Claimants) Act 2004, alleging trafficking for other exploitative purposes: John McDonnell: To ask the Chancellor of the Number of prosecutions Exchequer what estimate he has made of the number of (a) millionaires and (b) billionaires resident in the UK 2005-06 18 in each year since 2000; how many people were taxed 2006-07 40 on the basis of incomes of over £1 million a year before 2007-08 90 allowances on the latest date for which figures are 2008-09 124 available; how many were so taxed in each of the last 10 2009-10 121 years; and what estimate he has made of the tax 2010-11 174 revenue generated from those so taxed in each year. 1 April to September 2010 only [21106]

The data relate only to the number of charged Mr Gauke: Estimates of the number of millionaires offences that reached first hearing in the magistrates in the UK by year are given in the following table. Data courts. beyond 2005 are not available due to data quality problems. The CPS holds no records of the number of offences HMRC is reviewing data in this area, with a view to that were subsequently reduced to lesser charges during publishing figures for subsequent years once the quality this period. issues have been resolved. 907W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 908W

Chi Onwurah: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Number of millionaires (thousand) on what assumption regarding gross domestic product his forecast of deficit as a proportion of GDP contained 2000 220 in the comprehensive spending review is based. [21871] 2001 220 2002 250 Justine Greening: The Chancellor has established the 2003 220 independent Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) to 2004 n/a produce the official forecasts of the economy and the 2005 390 public finances. n/a = not available The forecast of gross domestic product and the forecast of the deficit (including as a proportion of GDP) The latest estimate (2005) is published in the HMRC contained within the spending review document are the Personal Wealth National Statistics Table 13.5: same forecasts as the independent OBR produced for http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/personal_wealth/13-5-table- the Government for the Budget 2010 in June. 2005.xls As the Chancellor has announced, the OBR will An estimate of the number of billionaires is not produce a new official forecast on 29 November. available. Information on the number of taxpayers with income, Social Security Benefits: Fraud subject to income tax, in excess of £1 million for 2007-08 to 2010-11 can be found on the income tax statistics and distribution table 2.5 ‘Income tax liabilities, by income Teresa Pearce: To ask the Chancellor of the range’ published on HMRC’s website: Exchequer what methodology his Department uses to http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/income_tax/table2-5.pdf calculate its estimate of the annual sum lost through fraud in the welfare system. [22079] lp;1pInformation for earlier years is shown in the following table. Justine Greening: The Government’s estimates of fraud Taxpayers with income, subject to income tax, in excess of £1 million and error levels in benefits and tax credits are based on Number of survey evidence. Full details of the methodologies are taxpayers Total tax liability (£ published on the DWP and HMRC websites, alongside (thousand) million) the most recent figures. 2000-01 6 4,210 2001-02 5 3,770 2002-03 4 3,160 Tax Rates and Bands: South East 2003-04 5 3,440 2004-05 6 4,610 Amber Rudd: To ask the Chancellor of the 2005-06 9 6,590 Exchequer how many households with two working 2006-07 11 8,580 individuals in (a) the South East and (b) Hastings and Source: Rye constituency have a combined income of over (i) Based on the Survey of Personal Incomes (SPI) £50,000, (ii) £60,000 and (iii) £70,000. [20735]

Public Expenditure Chris Grayling: I have been asked to reply. In 2008-09 the number of households in (a) the south-east containing two working adults with a total Dr Pugh: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer household income of over (i) £50,000 per annum was what information his Department holds on the extent 0.7 million (ii) £60,000 per annum was 0.5 million and to which each Department has achieved the annual real (iii) £70,000 per annum was 0.3 million. reduction in administration expenditure agreed with Estimates are based on survey data, and only allow his Department in the 2007 comprehensive spending for breakdowns to Government office region level, so review. [17986] information for Hastings and Rye is not available. Notes: Danny Alexander: Administration budget outturn from 1. The Family Resources Survey is a nationally representative 2004-05 to 2008-09, estimated 2009-10 outturn and sample of approximately 26,000 households. 2010-11 plans are published in Table 1.5 in Public 2. Data for 2008-09 were collected between April 2008 and March Expenditure Statistical Analyses (PESA) 2010, available 2009. on the Treasury website. 3. The figures are based on a sample of households which have The Comprehensive Spending Review 2007 committed been adjusted for non-response using multi-purpose grossing to reduce administration budgets by 5% a year in real factors which align the Family Resources Survey to Government terms across Departments. office region population by age and sex. Estimates are subject to sampling error and remaining non-response error. PESA shows overall annual real reductions in 4. Numbers have been rounded to the nearest 100,000 households. administration budgets of 5% in 2007-08, 3% in 2008-09, 0% in 2009-10 and 6% in 2010-11. Excluding reductions 5. Work status is based on self-reporting by the respondent to the of £356 million in administration budgets made as part survey. of the £6.2 billion in year cuts, plans indicated Source: administration budget real reductions in 2010-11 of 4%. The Family Resources Survey 2008-09. 909W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 910W

Working Tax Credit Mr Vaizey: The Department does not currently hold any information on the British Film Institute’s Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Chancellor of the programming. Exchequer what the maximum monetary value of each element of the working tax credit will be if the Departmental Public Expenditure proposals contained in both the June 2010 Budget and the 2010 Spending Review (a) are and (b) are not Dr Phillip Lee: To ask the Secretary of State for implemented in 2014-15. [19833] Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what mechanisms are in place to ensure that his Department’s decisions Justine Greening: The Budget and spending review on regional funding allocations are based on the most made reforms to the tax credit system to tackle the recent available population data. [20691] deficit in a fair way to ensure that tax credits are targeted at those who need them most. John Penrose: The Department does not make regional The following table shows the monetary value of funding allocations based on population data. each element of the working tax credit, based on current projections of CPI. Film: Finance

£ Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for 2014-15—after 2010 2014-15—if 2010 June June Budget and 2010 Budget and 2010 Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what estimate he spending review spending review changes has made of the monetary value of overseas earnings WTC elements changes implemented not implemented attributable to the film industry in (a) 2007, (b) 2008 Basic element 2,120 2,180 and (c) 2009; and what proportion of GDP this Second adult element 2,085 2,150 represented in each year. [20913] Lone parent element 2,085 2,150 30 hour element 880 905 Mr Vaizey: Information on the monetary value of Disability element 2,830 2,915 overseas earnings attributable to the UK film industry Severe disability 1,210 1,245 is not collated centrally. However, the UK Film Council element Statistical Yearbook indicates that UK film grossed 50 plus element 0 1,505 $3.3 billion in 2007, $4.2 billion in 2008 and $2 billion (16-30 hours) in 2009 in global box office receipts. 50 plus element 0 2,225 (30 hours) In 2009, the UK had the third-largest filmed entertainment market in the world, after the USA and To ensure support is better targeted at low-income Japan at $5.59 billion. This includes box office, DVD families with children, the Government have recycled home rentals and online downloads, though not TV some welfare savings into the child tax credit. The child revenue. element of the child tax credit will increase by £180 above The UK film industry exported £1.3 billion worth of indexation in 2011-12 and £110 above indexation in services in 2008 (the latest year for which data are 2012-13. These steps have been taken to ensure that available) and £1 billion in 2007. there is no measurable impact on child poverty from all modelled Budget and spending review changes to 2012-13. The Oxford Economics Report on the Economic Contribution of the Film industry (June 2010) estimates that the core UK film industry contributed around £1.6 billion to UK GDP in 2009. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Gambling BBC: Commonwealth Games 2014 Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport when he expects Ian Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, to conclude his consideration of the responses to his Olympics, Media and Sport whether he has had discussions consultation on the Regulatory Future of Remote with the BBC Trust on the likely effects on his Department’s Gambling in Great Britain. [21122] contribution to the 2014 Commonwealth Games of the BBC’s decision to withdraw as host broadcaster of that John Penrose: Since the consultation closed I have event. [21421] met a number of key stakeholders including the Gambling Commission, the Remote Gambling Association, Mr Vaizey [holding answer 3 November 2010]: The representatives from Alderney and the Isle of Man, as Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and well as representatives from faith and community groups. Sport (Mr Jeremy Hunt) has not had any discussions I am examining the issues and identifying possible with the BBC on this matter. solutions and I hope to be able to make an announcement shortly. British Film Institute Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Stephen Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Olympics, Media and Sport how many and what proportion Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what information of category B2 fixed odds betting terminals were located his Department holds on the British Film Institute’s in (a) bookmakers and (b) casinos on the latest date programming. [21223] for which figures are available. [20598] 911W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 912W

John Penrose: Almost all B2 gaming machines are Mr Vaizey: My officials and I are in regular discussions made available in licensed betting premises rather than with representatives of the radio sector, including local licensed casino premises. commercial radio. The Gambling Commission advises, based on industry In addition, the Digital Radio Action Plan, published estimates, that as at 31 March 2009 there were an earlier this year, sets out a number of mechanisms to estimated 27,500 B2 gaming machines available in Great enable all parts of the radio sector to engage with and Britain. contribute to the development of the Digital Radio Horse Racing: Betting Switchover policy.

Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for S4C: Wales Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent discussions he has had with (a) the Horseracing Levy Board and (b) the bookmaking betting industry on the Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, collection base in future levy schemes. [21120] Olympics, Media and Sport pursuant to the contribution of the Parliamentary Under Secretary of State of 20 John Penrose: I have met representatives of the Horserace October 2010, Official Report, columns 319-22WH, if Betting Levy Board, including the racing and bookmaking he will take steps to ensure that S4C is structured (a) to industries, to discuss the Levy and seek suggestions ensure a diversity of programming from independent about how it might be improved or, if possible, suitably creative production companies across Wales and (b) to replaced. stimulate the Welsh economy. [22081] The Government recently announced their intention to remove the Secretary of State’s role of determining the Levy scheme when the parties are unable to reach Mr Vaizey: The details of S4C’s partnership with the agreement. This will require changes to primary legislation BBC are currently being developed. As I made clear in and will not have effect until Parliament has approved the Westminster Hall debate on S4C funding on 20 such changes. We will be discussing the options with the October 2010, Official Report, columns 319-22WH, all Levy Board and the racing and betting industries with a of S4C’s content budget will be spent on independent view to ensuring the funding for racing is fair, and production, as it is now. collected from as broad a base as possible. Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Olympics, Media and Sport pursuant to the Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment contribution of the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of he has made of the economic and cultural effects of a State of 20 October 2010, Official Report, columns reduction in the fiftieth Horserace Betting Levy. [21121] 319-22WH, if he will introduce a mechanism to secure John Penrose: It is disappointing that the Secretary of at least the present level of funding allocated to S4C State will be required to determine the 50th Horserace after 2016. [22082] Betting Levy Scheme after the parties failed to reach agreement by the deadline of 31 October. The Secretary Mr Vaizey: No decisions have been made about the of State will make his determination in due course on funding levels for S4C after 2014-15. the basis of advice from the Minister for Sport and the Olympics. This will include consideration of all relevant issues. UK Film Council: Portland Music Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport pursuant to the Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent steps answer to Question 15057, if he will direct the accounting his Department has taken to encourage the performance officer of his Department to examine the appropriateness of live music. [20912] of the UK Film Council’s contract with Portland. [17701] John Penrose: The Department is currently considering how best to deliver the coalition agreement to cut red tape and encourage the performance of more live music, Mr Vaizey: The Department has been assured by the while ensuring that appropriate protection for local UK Film Council (UKFC) that its contract with Portland communities continues. We have had discussions with was appropriate and consistent with Cabinet Office representatives from the music industry, the Local rules. Government Association and the police among others Portland has advised that it did not carry out any and will continue to do so in our quest for consensus on public affairs work for the UKFC, but did assist with this issue. media support, and for the purpose of transparency, Radio: Digital Broadcasting listed the UKFC on its Advocate Policy and Public Affairs Consulting (APPC) client list. Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, In light of this clarification, there are no plans for the Olympics, Media and Sport what recent discussions he Department’s Accounting Officer to investigate further has had on the future of local commercial radio stations the appropriateness of the UK Film Council’s contract after digital radio switchover. [21435] with Portland. 913W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 914W

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Mr Jeremy Browne: The Government wholeheartedly condemn this act of violence. Anti-Semitism Our embassy in Bogota reports that on 14 October three children aged six, nine and 14 were allegedly Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign tortured and murdered in Tame, Arauca Province. The and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he children’s bodies were found buried in two separate has had with the Secretary General of the United graves located 100 metres from a local military camp. Nations on the worldwide incidence of anti-Semitism; The Colombian army issued a public statement to make and if he will make a statement. [R] [22010] clear that it does not tolerate such violent acts and asked the Attorney-General’s office and the Public Ministry Mr Jeremy Browne: My right hon. Friend the Foreign to investigate. The initial investigation found traces of Secretary has not discussed the worldwide incidence of blood on the rucksacks of 60 soldiers. On 2 November, anti-Semitism with the Secretary-General of the United seven military personnel, including two colonels, a major Nations recently. But combating all forms of racism, and a lieutenant were dismissed for failure to control including anti-Semitism, is an important part of the troops in their command. The dismissed officers will Government’s human rights agenda. Internationally, now face charges relating to these murders in a civilian Ministers and officials support work to tackle anti-Semitism court. Our embassy in Bogota will continue to monitor within the EU, the UN, the Organisation for Security the investigation and raise it with the Colombian and Co-operation in Europe and other multilateral fora. Government should it prove necessary. The Government support the All Party Parliamentary Colombia: Terrorism Group Against anti-Semitism and its work to promote efforts by governments and parliamentarians to combat anti-Semitism through implementing the London Mr Davidson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Declaration, adopted at the London Conference in and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he has received February 2009. of alleged collaboration between members of the The cross-Government working group to tackle anti- Colombian Army and paramilitary organisations in the Semitism, made up of officials from across Whitehall area of San Jose de Apartado in north west Colombia. and the chief executives of the Board of Deputies of [21351] British Jews, the Jewish Leadership Council and the Community Security Trust, is engaged in taking forward Mr Jeremy Browne: We are aware of the vulnerability the provisions of the London Declaration. We look of the San Jose de Apartado community. An official forward to the second Conference of the Inter- from our embassy in Bogota visited the San Jose de parliamentary Coalition for Combating Anti-Semitism Apartado on 13 and 14 October and met 50 members of in Ottawa in November as an opportunity for all the community. They raised the alleged collaboration participants to assess the progress that they have made between the army and paramilitary groups. Officials at around the world. Sir Andrew Burns, the UK Envoy for our embassy have subsequently raised these concerns in post-Holocaust issues, will be representing the Government meetings with the Office of the Human Rights Ombudsman at the conference. and a general in the local brigade of the Colombian army. Colombia Colombia: Visits Abroad Mr Davidson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he Mr Davidson: To ask the Secretary of State for has received on the killing of Rodolfo Maya Aricape in Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will consider Colombia. [21994] the merits of revising his Department’s travel advice to Mr Jeremy Browne: Journalist and community leader advise against travel to the provinces of Arauca and Rodolfo Maya Aricape was murdered on 14 October Narino. [21352] 2010 in Caloto, Cauca Province. Mr Maya was secretary of the local indigenous council and worked on the Mr Jeremy Browne: Foreign and Commonwealth Office Payumat radio station where he reported on conditions (FCO) travel advice is based on objective assessments of in his community. On 21 October the Inter-American the risks to British Nationals. Our travel advice on Commission on Human Rights condemned the killing Colombia is kept under constant review and updated and called on the Colombian authorities to investigate regularly. We base our advice on information received the case and punish the perpetrators. Vice-president from our embassy in Bogota, members of the public Angelino Garzón condemned the murder of Mr Maya and our local knowledge of the area. The safety of and made a statement that the Colombian Government British travellers remains the FCO’s main concern. would not tolerate such violent acts and denounced the We advise against all but essential travel to the area of activities of illegal armed groups. He called on the Arauca because of guerrilla activity and the presence authorities to promote democracy and fight organised there of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia crime. We will continue to monitor this case. (FARC). Most recently, on 28 October, two policemen Colombia: Homicide were killed by FARC guerrillas. We advise against all but essential travel to Narino Jim McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for department. The eastern and western areas of Narino Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports are identified in the crime section of our Travel Advice he has received on the killing of three children near as areas of potentially high levels of coca cultivation. Tame in Arauca province, Colombia on 14 October Narino department has been affected by various FARC 2010. [21742] attacks in the last three months, most recently on 18 October 915W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 916W in Roncadora where seven members of the military We believe that the best way to lessen Hamas’ control were killed. In addition, we strongly advise any travellers is through promoting the economic revitalisation of to the department of Narino to bear in mind the Gaza and pressing for significant progress in a negotiated eruption of the Galeras Volcano on 25 August and solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict. recommend that they pay careful attention to all warnings We have repeatedly called on Hamas to stop its issued by and to follow the advice of the local authorities. interference with humanitarian operations in Gaza and to release Gilad Shalit. Human Trafficking We are also pressing the Israelis to ease restrictions on Gaza, enable the private sector to flourish, including Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign through exports and the movement of people, and to and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he press for a roll-over of the settlement moratorium which has had with his overseas counterparts on steps to would allow direct talks to continue. prevent human trafficking across international borders. [19475] Turkmenistan: EU External Relations

Damian Green: I have been asked to reply. Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for There have been no recent bilateral discussions with Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will ensure overseas counterparts on human trafficking. However, that the EU Partnership and Cooperation Agreement my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary (Mrs May) with Turkmenistan is not ratified until greater and I met with the UNHCR high commissioner, Antonio protection for human rights and legal protections for Guterres, to discuss the issue. religious minorities in that country are secured. [21690]

Ilois: Resettlement Mr Lidington: Turkmenistan’s progress on human rights will form an important component of any UK Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for decision to ratify the EU-Turkmenistan Partnership Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will revoke and Co-operation Agreement. Our priority is to support the Order in Council of 2004, which overturned the Turkmenistan in becoming a stable and prosperous High Court judgment of 3 November 2000, in respect partner for the UK and EU, and we stand ready to of the settlement of Chagossians to the Chagos support their plans for democratic and wider reform. Islands. [21774] Uganda: Politics and Government Mr Bellingham: The Government have no plans to revoke the British Indian Ocean Territory (Constitution) Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Order 2004 or the British Indian Ocean Territory Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his assessment (Immigration) Order 2004. is of the effects of electoral violence in Uganda on the (a) humanitarian situation in Uganda and the Great The decision of the House of Lords in R (Bancoult) Lakes Region, (b) African Union peacekeeping in Somalia, v. Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth (c) war against the Lords Resistance Army in the Affairs [2008] UKHL 61 upheld the validity of these Democratic Republic of Congo and the Central African Orders. This means that no person has the right of Republic and (d) prospects for a peaceful referendum abode in the British Indian Ocean Territory or the right in Southern Sudan; and if he will make a statement. to enter the Territory unless authorised. [20561] The Government are continuing to contest the case brought by the Chagos Islanders to the European Court Mr Bellingham: We assess that Uganda is playing a of Human Rights for resettlement and further positive role in the region through its peacekeeping compensation. deployment to Somalia, progress on economic regional The Government realise that the decision not to integration within the East Africa Community and change the fundamental policy on resettlement, co-operation with other countries affected by the Lord’s compensation and on the Marine Protected Area will Resistance Army. be a disappointing one for the Chagossians and their We judge that peaceful elections in Uganda in February supporters. However, we want to keep channels of 2011 would support further constructive Ugandan communication open with the Chagossian community. engagement with its neighbours and regional partners. I made this clear to Mr Olivier Bancoult of the Chagos In addition, it would support the further development Refugees Group when we met on 21 October. of the country and the further improvement of the humanitarian situation in the north. Of course, any Palestinians: Politics and Government violence around the electoral process could undermine these objectives. Therefore the UK is working with Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign support key institutions in Uganda, including the Electoral and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment he Commission, Government and opposition parties and has made of sustainability of Hamas control in Gaza. police force, to support elections that are as credible [21843] and peaceful as possible.

Alistair Burt: Hamas is physically, militarily and UN Women economically in control of Gaza and is increasingly using its rule to impose a reactionary social agenda. Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Their only significant challenge comes from even more and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the answer of extreme groups. 26 October 2010, Official Report, column 257-8W, on 917W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 918W

UN Women, whom the UK (a) nominated and (b) abuse by the Indonesian security forces. We have raised supported for the post of Head of UN Women. [21677] our concerns with the Indonesian authorities and welcome their prompt announcement that there will be a full Mr Jeremy Browne: During the negotiations to establish investigation and that those military officers found to UN Women, the EU agreed that the first person to fill be responsible will be held to account. We will keep in the Under Secretary-General post should be from a close contact with the Indonesian Government on this developing country, and that we should encourage issue. developing countries to put forward their own candidates. Because of this, the UK did not nominate a candidate. The appointment of the Under Secretary-General, like other Under Secretary-General positions within the INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT UN Secretariat, is at the discretion of the Secretary-General. He did not approach member states for their views. Departmental Redundancy The UK fully supports the appointment of Michelle Bachelet as the Under Secretary-General to head UN Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Women. We look forward to working closely with her as International Development how much funding to meet she shapes UN Women’s vision and workplan in the staff redundancy costs was identified in his Department’s coming months. settlement letter in respect of the Comprehensive Spending Review. [21538] Venezuela: Foreign Relations Mr Andrew Mitchell: All pressures on the Department Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign for International Development’s (DFID’s) budget were and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment he taken into account as part of the spending review and has made of the state of UK-Venezuelan relations; and the settlement allocated accordingly. The full costs of if he will make a statement. [21931] redundancies will be met from within DFID’s spending review resource DEL settlement. Mr Jeremy Browne: We enjoy a productive working relationship with the Venezuelan Government and work Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for closely in areas of mutual interest, including counter International Development (1) what estimate he has narcotics and commercial interests. The UK and Venezuela made of the number of redundancies arising from the share goals in poverty reduction, fairer societies and the spending reductions proposed in the Comprehensive importance of the Millennium Development Goals Spending Review in respect of (a) his Department, (b) (MDGs). its non-departmental public bodies and (c) other My hon. Friend, the Home Office Minister for Crime public bodies which are dependent on his Department Prevention (James Brokenshire) met the Venezuelan for funding; [21539] Vice Foreign Minister Temir Porras on 1 October during (2) what estimate he has made of the cost to his his visit to Venezuela. He took the opportunity of this Department of staff redundancy in each of the next meeting to reiterate our shared responsibility with Venezuela four years. [21540] on matters of immigration and the fight against drugs trafficking. Mr Andrew Mitchell: Determining optimal work force reforms in order to live within the Department for Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign International Development’s (DFID’s) spending review and Commonwealth Affairs what (a) treaties and (b) resource DEL settlement will be an ongoing process. co-operation agreements exist between the UK and Detailed decisions regarding the number of redundancies Venezuela; when each such agreement was signed; who that may be required have yet to be finalised. the signatories were; when each such agreement will be Additionally, the total cost of any redundancies made reviewed; and if he will make a statement. [21933] over the SR period is wholly dependent on the awaited final structure of the Civil Service Compensation Scheme. Mr Jeremy Browne: The information is not immediately available in the form requested. I shall write to my hon. Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Friend the Member for Southend West with the details International Development how many staff of his he seeks shortly and will place a copy of the letter in the Department have been offered enhanced early Library of the House. retirement packages in each of the last three years. [22033] West Papua: Human Rights Mr Duncan: The number of staff in the Department Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for for International Development (DFID) who were offered Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent early retirement packages under the provisions of the reports he has received on the human rights situation Civil Service Compensation Scheme in each of the last of the people of West Papua. [21279] three financial years is as follows.

Mr Jeremy Browne: We receive regular reports on the Financial year Number of staff human rights situation in the Indonesian provinces of Papua and West Papua. 2007-08 48 2008-09 14 For example, we were concerned by the disturbing 2009-10 28 images in recently released video footage depicting serious 919W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 920W

Departmental Secondment EDUCATION

Academies: Faith Schools Mr McCann: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development how many of his Department’s Paul Uppal: To ask the Secretary of State for staff are on secondment to UN Women; and whether he Education whether religious schools which become has plans for further such secondments. [21766] academies are entitled to retain selective admissions criteria. [17997] Mr Duncan: The UK Government strongly support the establishment of the new United Nations Entity for Mr Gibb: Existing schools with a religious designation Gender Equality and the Empowerment of Women, that convert to become Academies will be able to retain known as UN Women. their admission arrangements, including where those schools give priority to applicants on the basis of their There are no staff from the Department for International faith. Any school converting, whether or not it has a faith Development (DFID) on secondment to UN Women. designation, will be able to retain admission arrangements UN Women will become operational by January 2011 that select on the basis of ability or aptitude. and is currently considering its staffing requirements. This reflects the underlying principle, secured through DFID is in close touch with the management team on the Academies Act 2010, that schools convert to academies any help they might need, but no decision has yet been with the same characteristics they had prior to conversion. taken on any secondments. Building Schools for the Future Programme: Bolton

Developing Countries: Politics and Government Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what criteria were used to determine which schools rebuilding programmes in Bolton would not go Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Secretary of State for ahead under the Building Schools for the Future International Development pursuant to the answers of scheme. [15910] 26 October 2010, Official Report, columns 292-93W, on developing countries: politics and government, how Mr Gibb: On 5 July the Secretary of State announced much and what proportion of the increase in official a stop on expenditure on the Building Schools for the development assistance targeted at conflict affected Future (BSF) programme until a more efficient use of and fragile states announced in the Strategic Defence resources has been determined. The criteria for determining and Security Review will be drawn from the budget which school projects within the programme are to for (a) his Department, (b) the Foreign and continue were national. There were no criteria specific Commonwealth Office, (c) the Ministry of Defence to Bolton. and (d) the Conflict Pool settlement. [21324] BSF developments are being maintained for three groups of schools: Mr Andrew Mitchell: The proportion of UK Official those in a local authority area’s initial BSF scheme where Development Assistance (ODA) used to support fragile Financial Close has been reached; and conflict affected states and tackle the drivers of the first projects due to be taken forward in a local authority area where Financial Close has not been reached but where instability will rise from 22% in 2010/11 to 30% in very significant work has been undertaken, to the point of 2014-15. This is expected to amount to £3.7 billion in appointing a preferred bidder at ″close of dialogue″; and 2014-15. The vast majority of this is expected to be some schools with planned projects subsequent to their authority’s funded from the Department for International initial scheme—projects with outline business cases approved Development’s (DFID’s) budget. The remainder will before 1 January 2010. come from the Conflict Pool settlement, which is jointly The following Bolton schools have had their BSF managed by DFID, the Foreign and Commonwealth funding stopped as they do not fit into the three Office (FCO) and the Ministry of Defence (MOD) as aforementioned categories: Bolton Muslim Girls School, well as from ODA managed by a range of Government Ladybridge High School, Little Lever Specialist Language Departments, including the FCO and MOD. My College, Rumworth Special School, Sharples School, Department is in communication with other Government Smithills and Westhoughton High. Kearsley Academy’s Departments to determine precise contributions from capital allocation will be determined after the comprehensive each and will continue to work with colleagues across spending review as announced by the Secretary of State Whitehall to ensure the target is achieved. on the 6 August. Children, Schools and Families Act 2010 UN Women’s Agency: Finance Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what the (a) prefix and (b) title is of each file on Mr McCann: To ask the Secretary of State for Clauses 11 to 14 of the Children, Schools and Families International Development what financial contribution Bill of Session 2009-10 held by his Department; and if the Government plans to make to UN Women in the he will make a statement. [14256] next four years. [21765] Mr Gibb: PSHE embraces a large number of topics including sex education, drugs and alcohol, financial Mr Duncan: I refer the hon. Member to my answer of capability, health and safety and work-related learning. 3 November 2010, Official Report, column 828W, on The Department has files on all of these as well as on UN Women’s Agency: Finance. general PSHE policy and parliamentary business. 921W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 922W

Departmental Internet Departmental Public Expenditure

Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Education what the URL is of each website managed what the nature was of the grant awarded under the by (a) his Department and (b) each non-departmental terms of the contract between his Department and (a) public body for which his Department is responsible. the Specialist Schools and Academies Trust and (b) the [2365] Youth Sport Trust; and whether the letting of these contracts was subject to the provisions of the Public Procurement Regulations 2006. [15958] Michael Gove: The Department for Education is currently responsible for managing 11 websites. The URLs for Mr Gibb: The grant awarded by the Department to these are shown at list A. A number of these were SSAT for 2010-11 is £14,368,018 and is mainly to subsumed within the revised Department for Education support the Specialist Schools and the Academies website when it was launched last month. programmes. The grant awarded to YST for 2010-11 is The Department’s NDPBs manage a total of 21 £15,212,000 and is to support a range of PE and sports websites, and the URLs are shown at table B. programmes. Grants are not subject to the 2006 Public List A—Department URLs: Procurement Regulations. www.governornet.co.uk Departmental Visits Abroad www.need2know.co.uk www.teachernet.gov.uk David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how much his Department spent on www.standards.dfes.gov.uk overseas visits for senior officials in the last 12 months www.connexions-direct.com for which figures are available. [18414] www.dcsf.gov.uk www.education.gov.uk Tim Loughton: The following figures represent the spend on air travel and hotel accommodation for www.tre.ngfl.gov.uk Department for Education officials while on overseas www.myguide.gov.uk visits during the past 12 months. www.edubase.gov.uk Overseas visits www.schoolsadjudicator.gov.uk £ Table B Air travel NDBP URLs 2010 The British Educational www.becta.org.uk September 1,071.06 Communications and technology Agency August 777.89 www.evaluation.icttestbed.org.uk July 0 www.cc4g.net June 1,364.99 May 882.59 April 7,356.35 The Qualifications and Curriculum www.qcda.org.uk Development Agency Marc 6,470.75 www.wba.qca.org.uk February 2,279.68 January 1,347.4 www.accreditedqualifications.org.uk

2009 The Teaching and Development Agency www.multiverse.ac.uk December 615.97 www.behaviour4learning.ac.uk November 650.81 www.ttrb.ac.uk October 11,907 www.tda.gov.uk Total 34,724.49

The School Food Trust www.schoolfoodtrust.org.uk Hotels The Children and Family Court Advisory www.cafcass.gov.uk 2010 Support Service September 0 August 0 National Council for School Leadership http:// www.nationalcollege.org.uk/ July 266 www.nationalcollege.org.uk June 1,575 May 186 April 3,216 The Children’s Commissioner www.childrenscommissioner.gov.uk March 500 The Children’s Workforce Development www.cwdcouncil.org.uk February 0 Council January 80 Partnership for Schools www.partnershipsforschools.org.uk The Teachers TV Board of Governors www.ttvboard.org The Young People’s Learning Agency www.ypla.gov.uk 2009 Ofsted www.ofsted.gov.uk December 0 Ofqual www.ofqual.gov.uk November 1,051 923W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 924W

Overseas visits that our core curriculum can compare with those of the £ highest performing countries in the world. October 2,639 On 6 September, in a speech at Westminster Academy, Total 9,513 the Secretary of State announced an English Baccalaureate, to include a modern or ancient language as one of the Education: Finance core academic subjects that children should learn at GCSE level, along with English, maths, science and a Mr Robin Walker: To ask the Secretary of State for humanity subject. Education what account will be taken of the evidence Mental Illness gathered as part of the previous Government’s consultation on education funding in (a) the consultation on the Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education pupil premium and (b) future decisions on the wider what assessment he has made of the recommendations funding formula. [16003] relating to his Department of the report by the Government Office for Science, Foresight on Mental Capital and Mr Gibb: We published our proposals for school Wellbeing; if he will ensure that his Department’s policy funding in 2011-12, including the introduction of the development process takes account of psychological pupil premium, on 26 July 2010. Those proposals took research into subjective well-being; and if he will make into account the evidence gathered as part of the previous a statement. [18455] Government’s review of school funding. We plan minimal changes to the underlying system for 2011-12 in order Sarah Teather [holding answer 21 October 2010]: to ensure the transparent introduction of the premium. The Foresight Report “Mental Capital and Wellbeing: We also made clear our longer term intention to bring Making the Most of ourselves in the 21st century”, in a simpler and more transparent funding system to published on 22 October 2008, contained many key help reduce the funding differences between similar messages around the needs of children which are important schools in different areas. We will work with key partners for this Department, including its conclusions and broad to consider how best to bring this about and will take recommendations relating to child development and into account relevant evidence including that from the learning, children with learning difficulties, and those previous Government’s review. with mental health needs. There is a breadth of work taking place across the Free Schools Department for Education which will drive these priorities forward, including the SEN and Disability Green Paper. Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education The Department is also working closely with the Home (1) what assessment he made of the merits of allocating Office on the development of a new drug strategy, and responsibility for the provision of advice to groups the Department of Health on NHS reforms, a Public wishing to establish free schools to officials in his Health White Paper and a new mental health strategy. Department prior to taking the decision to allocate this The Government will also be keen to reflect on the responsibility to the New Schools Network; [15491] findings of some key, related work being carried out (2) what role he had in the process of awarding his through Graham Allen’s independent review of early Department’s contract to provide advice to groups intervention, and Dame Claire Tickell’s independent wishing to establish free schools. [15492] review of the Early Years Foundation Stage. Primary Education: Finance Mr Gibb: The Department is finalising a grant agreement (rather than a contract) with New Schools Network Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for (NSN) to provide advice to groups wishing to establish Education whether his Department provides funds to free schools. Having taken advice from officials, we have primary schools in (a) deprived communities and (b) agreed that NSN was ideally placed to undertake such other areas to promote engagement with universities. activities. [17983] The Department has given out similar grants in the past, such as to the Specialist Schools and Academies Mr Gibb: The Department does not provide funds to Trust and the Youth Sport Trust. primary schools to promote engagement with universities. Languages: Education Schools: Wolverhampton Paul Uppal: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for whether any schools in Wolverhampton South West Education what steps he is taking to encourage the constituency have applied to become an academy. teaching of modern languages. [18042] [18004] Mr Gibb [holding answer 19 October 2010]: The Mr Gibb: To date, no schools in Wolverhampton Government believe that learning a language is important South West constituency have applied to become an to the social and economic future of the country and to academy, or expressed an interest in doing so. help children understand the world in which they live. The latest list of primary and secondary schools We will be announcing more details about a review of within England that have expressed an interest in academy the National Curriculum later this year. This review will status is available at: consider the status of languages at both primary and http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/leadership/ secondary level. We plan to consult a wide range of typesofschools/academies/a0061400/schools-registering- academics, teachers and other interested parties to ensure interest-or-submitting-an-application 925W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 926W

Special Educational Needs for academy pupils with SEN. The Model Funding Agreement has recently been strengthened to give the Pat Glass: To ask the Secretary of State for Secretary of State the power to intervene specifically in Education what progress has been made in establishing relation to the delivery of SEN obligations and the an advisory group on the effect of the Academies Act YPLA will, therefore, advise the Secretary of State of 2010 on funding provision for children with low- circumstances where that power should be used. incidence special educational needs; and what the On 10 September the Minister of State for Children names are of the members of the group. [15769] and Families invited views from everyone with an interest in services for children and young people with special Mr Gibb: DFE is reviewing how academies are funded educational needs or disabilities in England. All views from 2011-12 onwards to identify the scope for simplifying and perspectives received will be considered as part of the funding process and as part of this, we will consider developing proposals for a Green Paper on SEN and funding for SEN pupils. This includes consideration of disability to be published this autumn. the funding academies receive for functions previously undertaken by local authorities, and of the way in Teachers: Standards which funding is deducted from local authorities to take account of this. The School Funding Implementation Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Group, including both local authority and academy Education what plans he has to raise the standard of representation, is providing advice into this review. science and mathematics teaching; and if he will The Department has established an advisory group allocate funds for the purpose of raising the standard to consider the process by which special schools may of such teaching in North Swindon constituency. become academies, to identify any practical issues in [17674] this process, and to advise the Department as to how these may be resolved. The members of the group are as Mr Gibb: We have announced our intention to review follows: the national curriculum to restore it to its original Heather Rockhold (Lauriston School) purpose—a core national entitlement organised around Royston Halford (Hawkley Hall High School) subject disciplines. We will consider the content of the David Gregory (Fosse Way School) mathematics and science curriculum as part of this Sue Bourne (The Avenue School) process and will announce more details about this review Kay Bedford (Swiss Cottage School) later in the year. We will also set out our proposals for improving standards in mathematics and science in the Malcolm Reeve (Columbus School) White Paper later this year, and as part of the follow up Steve Roberts (St Vincent’s School for Blind and Partially to the comprehensive spending review. The Government Sighted Children) are committed to recruiting more high quality graduates Toby Salt (Littlegreen and St. Anthony’s special schools federation) into teaching, and the forthcoming White Paper will Sir Bob Balchin also outline the Government’s plans for ensuring the Bob Freeman (ADCS nomination, Luton Borough Council) right supply of specialist teachers in physics, chemistry Harriet Martin (LGA nomination, Luton Borough Council) and mathematics, as well as improving the skills of those already in the classroom. In July this year, we Claire Dorer (National Association of Independent Schools and Non-Maintained Special Schools) announced an additional £4 million to expand the Teach First programme, which will support Teach First Jolanta Lasota (TreeHouse). to increase the number and quality of applicants to the Other representatives are invited to attend meetings of programme, including those from a mathematics and the advisory group as appropriate. The advisory group science background. is chaired and supported by Department for Education Funding for all schools from 2011-12 onwards, including officials. in North Swindon, will be determined in the follow-up to the spending review. Pat Glass: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what (a) monitoring and (b) assessment his Department has undertaken of the effect of (i) existing and (ii) new academies on education services for children with low- WORK AND PENSIONS incidence special educational needs. [15772]

Mr Gibb: DfE is reviewing how academies are funded Child Benefit from 2011-12 onwards to identify the scope for simplifying the funding process and, as part of this, we will consider Julie Hilling: To ask the Secretary of State for Work funding for SEN pupils. This includes consideration of and Pensions if he will bring forward proposals to the funding academies receive for functions previously create a new form of National Insurance credit to assist undertaken by local authorities, and of the way in stay-at-home parents who would have otherwise which funding is deducted from local authorities to take qualified for national insurance credits whilst receiving account of this. The School Funding Implementation child benefit. [21684] Group, including both local authority and academy representation, is providing advice into this review. Steve Webb: I refer the hon. Member to the written The YPLA is responsible for monitoring and enforcing answer I gave the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead the terms of Academy Funding Agreements—which (Teresa Pearce) on 19 October 2010, Official Report, contain obligations in relation to the provision of services column 643W. 927W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 928W

Council Tax Benefits 2. Council tax benefit caseload and average weekly amounts are available at local authority area level and these are published on the Department’s website at: Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the likely effects http://www.dwp.gov.uk/asd/hbctb.asp of an increase in non-dependent deductions on the 3. At present geographic breakdowns are only available for local number of new households formed; and if he will make authorities and regions. However, an exercise is being undertaken a statement. [21039] to add other geographical areas to the data: this will include parliamentary constituencies. Steve Webb: This information is not available. (b) There were 34,740 council tax benefit recipients in Households are formed and stay together for a number Tower Hamlets local authority area in July 2010. of factors, including non-financial reasons, and the Notes: Department has not been able to estimate the impact 1. Recipients are as at the second Thursday of the month. that higher rates of non-dependant deductions would have on non-dependant mobility or household formation. 2. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. We shall publish an Equality Impact Assessment for 3. Council tax benefit figures exclude any single adult rebate cases. the June Budget change to non-dependant deductions to accompany the relevant legislation when introduced 4. SHBE is a monthly electronic scan of claimant level data direct in Parliament. from local authority computer systems. It replaces quarterly aggregate clerical returns. The data is available monthly from November 2008 and July 2010 is the latest available. Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what impact assessment his Department Source: prepared prior to the decision to transfer direct control Single Housing Benefit Extract (SHBE). of council tax benefit to local authorities. [21733]

Steve Webb: The Chancellor set out the overall impact Disability Living Allowance on individuals of the benefit and tax credit changes announced in spending review 2010. The precise impacts of the localisation of council tax benefit will depend on Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State the flexibilities given to local authorities and the choices for Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of made by them. The Government are working to develop the effect on those who live in residential care homes of the new arrangements and will publish the detailed his proposals to remove the mobility component of impact assessment when legislation is introduced. disability living allowance from such people; what representations he has received on his proposals; and if Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for he will make a statement. [20981] Work and Pensions what discussions he had with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities prior to his Maria Miller: People who live in state funded decision to transfer direct control of council tax benefit residential care homes will cease to be paid the mobility to local authorities. [21734] component of disability living allowance (DLA) after 28 days. While these residents will not be paid DLA, Steve Webb: The need to reform housing benefit and they will retain an underlying entitlement to the benefit council tax benefit was discussed with the associations and it will be reinstated if they leave the care home (including COSLA) that represent local authorities as providing they continue to satisfy the conditions of ″ part of the consultation process on Supporting People entitlement. The planned implementation date is ″ into work: the next stage of Housing Benefit reform . October 2012. The change will not apply to residents The proposal announced in the spending review was who meet the full costs of the care home themselves; not formally discussed with the associations but COSLA they will continue to be paid any care or mobility and the other associations will be given the opportunity components of disability living allowance they are to contribute their views as the new arrangements are entitled to. The change will affect around 60,000 developed. people. Council Tax: Greater London Local authority contracts with care homes cover services to meet all a resident’s assessed needs, Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for including any assessed mobility needs, so an Work and Pensions how many people resident in (a) individual’s care support and mobility needs should be Bethnal Green and Bow and (b) Tower Hamlets were met by residential care providers from social care in receipt of council tax benefit on the latest date for funding. This measure will remove an overlap of public funds while ensuring that resources continue to be which figures are available. [20882] targeted at disabled people with the greatest needs. Steve Webb: The information is as follows: We have received representations in the form of (a) The information for Bethnal Green and Bow parliamentary questions and correspondence since the constituency is not available. measure was announced. The measure will be Notes: introduced as part of the forthcoming Welfare Reform Bill. In line with the Department’s commitment to 1. From February 2007, DWP has been collecting more detailed HB/CTB data electronically from local authorities. Over time this transparency, an equality impact assessment for will improve the accuracy, timeliness and level of detail available Welfare Reform Bill measures such as this, will be in the published statistics, as the information supplied is quality published on DWP’s website alongside the Bill in due assured. course. 929W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 930W

Disability Living Allowance: Medical Examinations Steve Webb: We will publish a document on the impacts of the proposed changes to the shared room Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for rate in due course. This will include information at the Work and Pensions how much his Department has local authority level. paid in bonus or incentive payments to each company The Department published a document on ‘Impacts in delivering medical assessments for disability living of Housing Benefit proposals: Changes to the Local allowance in the most recent 12 months for which Housing Allowance to be introduced in 2011-12’ on records are available. [21367] 23 July. A copy of the document has been placed in the Library. Based on this document, around 30% of housing Maria Miller: Atos Healthcare are contracted to benefit recipients subject to the shared room rate will provide the Department with medical services including lose their local housing allowance excess as their rents assessments in connection with disability living allowance. are below the local housing allowance rate. No bonus or incentive payments have been made in respect of the medical services provided by Atos Healthcare. Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of the Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for effects on the local economy of reductions in Work and Pensions how many assessments for entitlement to housing benefit in each of the next four disability living allowance ATOS Healthcare carried years; and if he will make a statement. [20171] out in the last 12 months; how many such assessments were appealed against; and how many such appeals Steve Webb: On 23 July the Department published a were successful. [21369] document on ’Impacts of Housing Benefit proposals: Changes to the Local Housing Allowance to be introduced Maria Miller: The number of disability living allowance in 2011-12’, which includes analysis at the local authority assessments carried out by Atos Healthcare in the period level, and a separate Equality Impact Assessment. A October 2009 to September 2010 was 46,312. copy of the documents has been placed in the Library. We are unable to say how many assessments were The Department will publish a full impact assessment appealed against or how many such appeals were successful. for the 2011-12 changes to the local housing allowance DLA appeals can be made against all decisions and the arrangements when it lays the relevant legislation in management information system of the Pension, Disability November 2010. and Carers Service does not go to the level of detail that would identify those appeals specifically related to such assessments. Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the likely level Source: of availability of (a) two, (b) three and (c) four Department for Work and Pensions Management Information bedroom properties to local housing allowance claimants Statistics. in each local authority after the implementation of the Employment: Questionnaires proposed benefits cap and restriction of local housing allowance to the 30th percentile. [21040] Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Steve Webb: The local housing allowance rates will be and Pensions what recent discussions he has had with set at the 30th percentile of rents in each broad rental Ministerial colleagues on Government policy on the market area, ensuring that 30% of properties, for each use of pre-employment health questionnaires. [20534] property size, would be affordable under the local housing allowance arrangements. Chris Grayling: It was a collective decision by the coalition Government to implement section 60 of the The Department published a document on ’Impacts Equality Act 2010 from 1 October 2010, but there have of Housing Benefit proposals: Changes to the Local been no recent discussions with ministerial colleagues Housing Allowance to be introduced in 2011-12’ on 23 on Government policy on the use of pre-employment July, which includes a section on the impact of the questionnaires. Section 60 of the Equality Act 2010 housing benefit cap on the availability of accommodation places restrictions on when a person recruiting for work for each broad rental market area. A copy of the may make inquiries about an applicant’s health or document has been placed in the Library. disability prior to the point of a job offer being made, or the applicant being placed in a pool of successful Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for applicants to be offered a job when a vacancy arises. Work and Pensions what recent estimate he has made of the proportion of tenants in the privately rented Housing Benefit sector who receive housing benefit. [21740]

Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Steve Webb: My most recent estimate is that and Pensions (1) how many people will be affected by approximately 40% of tenants in the private rented the removal of the one-bed rate for 25 to 35-year-olds sector receive housing benefit. in each (a) region, (b) local authority area, (c) constituency and (d) broad rental market area; [19858] Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and (2) how many and what proportion of recipients of Pensions whether his Department’s impact assessment local housing allowance (LHA) at the shared room rate of changes to local housing allowance included in its pay rent in excess of their LHA payments; and what analysis properties used by local authorities as the average level of the excess is. [19864] temporary accommodation. [21834] 931W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 932W

Steve Webb: The impact document published on 23 At present, the management information needed to July 2010 did not include properties used by local estimate durations on housing benefit has not been authorities as temporary accommodation. Housing benefit sufficiently quality assured; and, while information is subsidy for people in temporary accommodation is collected on the number of claimants in receipt of a considered separately to mainstream Local housing passported benefit, which includes income-based jobseeker’s allowance rates and reviewed annually. allowance, the total number of jobseeker’s allowance claimants receiving housing benefit is not available. Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Housing benefit caseload and average weekly amounts Pensions what recent estimate he has made of the are available at local authority area level and these are proportion of private rentals in each broad market published on the Department’s website at: rental area which are in receipt of local housing http://www.dwp.gov.uk/asd/hbctb.asp allowance. [22093] Housing Benefit: Oxfordshire Steve Webb: My most recent estimate is that approximately 40% of tenants in the private rented Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for sector receive housing benefit. Work and Pensions how many households in each ward This is a national figure; reliable estimates at local in Oxford West and Abingdon constituency were in level are not available. receipt of housing benefit of more than £400 per week in the last period for which figures are available. [21054]

Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Steve Webb: The information is not available at the Pensions what estimate he has made of the proportion constituency level. At July 2010, our records show that of claimants of local housing allowance whose in Cherwell, Oxford and the Vale of White Horse local monthly allowance does not cover the cost of rental authorities combined there were fewer than five households payments. [22095] receiving housing benefit over £400 per week. Steve Webb: In August 2009, 48% of those receiving Source: housing benefit under the local housing allowance Single Housing Benefit Extract from July 2010. All figures have arrangements had a shortfall in their rent caused by the been rounded to the nearest 10 recipients. customer’s contractual rent being higher than the Housing Benefit: Private Rented Housing appropriate local housing allowance rate. Work is under way to update this information and we Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and aim to include this in the publication on a ″two-year Pensions how many households in the private rented review of the local housing allowance″ due out later this sector were in receipt of housing benefit or local year. housing allowance in each local authority area in England and Wales in each year since 2000-01. [20998] Housing Benefit: Employment Steve Webb: The information has been placed in the Library. John Hemming: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will exempt those recipients of Mortgages: Government Assistance housing benefit who are in employment from the proposed change in entitlement from the 50th Karl Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Work percentile to the 30th percentile. [20624] and Pensions for what reasons claimants of Support for Mortgage Interest were given fewer than six days Steve Webb: We have no plans to introduce exemptions notice before the implementation of the reduction in for specific groups when we change the basis on which the level of payments under that scheme. [20028] local housing allowance rates are set. We have provided a substantial increase in the discretionary housing payments Steve Webb: The recent change in the standard interest budget which will allow local authorities to give additional rate used to calculate support for mortgage interest was support where it is most needed. announced in the emergency Budget on 22 June. The information was placed on the Treasury and the DirectGov websites. DWP officials also took steps to disseminate Housing Benefit: Jobseeker’s Allowance the information, including an article for InTouch (an electronic newsletter for key external stakeholders and Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State claimant representative organisations), and a letter in for Work and Pensions what recent estimate he has July explaining the change to all DWP stakeholder made of the number of housing benefit recipients who groups which was followed up with a further letter on have also been receiving jobseeker’s allowance for over 31 August to let them know what the new standard (a) six and (b) 12 months. [20531] interest rate would be. We would not have been able to provide claimants Steve Webb: The information requested is not available. with the actual details of the new rate until the rate was From February 2007, DWP has been collecting more published by the Bank of England on 31 August, which detailed housing benefit and council tax benefit data only allowed a small window of time to inform claimants electronically from local authorities. Over time this will of the actual rate and its effect on their benefit entitlement. improve the accuracy, timeliness and level of detail When the standard interest rate moved up and down, available in the published statistics, as the information before being frozen at 6.08% in November 2008, exactly supplied is quality assured. the same limited notification period would have arisen. 933W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 934W

As cases are reassessed by the Department’s computer The proportion of spending on state pension by pensioner income systems, letters are usually sent out automatically to decile basic state pension and additional pension for pensioners on an after housing cost basis in Great Britain, equivalised, 2006-07 to claimants advising them of the change. The system 2008-09 letters started going out around mid-September, in advance Percentage of the change on 1 October 2010. Mortgage direct interest payments are made four-weekly in arrears, so Third decile 10 most claimants would have been informed around a Fourth decile 10 month before their new interest payments was made. Fifth decile 10 Sixth decile 11 Karl Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Seventh decile 11 and Pensions what recent progress his Department has Eighth decile 11 made in negotiations with mortgage lenders on Ninth decile 11 averaging out mortgage rates under the Support for Top decile 10 Mortgage Interest scheme. [20029] (b) and (c) Information on the proportion of spending Steve Webb: We plan to hold further discussions on on guarantee credit and savings credit by income deciles this proposal with the Council of Mortgage Lenders in is not available as requested. Information set out in the the coming weeks. following table shows the proportion of the expenditure on pension credit (guarantee credit and savings credit) Pension Credit by equivalised household income deciles on an after housing cost basis. Estimates are derived from the Family Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for Resources Survey and are based on a three year average Work and Pensions at what rate he intends to increase to help take account of small sample sizes in certain the thresholds for the guaranteed credit and savings deciles and statistical variation across the years. credit elements of pension credit after April 2011; and The proportion of spending on pension credit by pensioner income what assessment he has made of the potential effect of deciles guarantee credit plus savings credit for pensioners on an after such increases on the level of pension credit relative to housing cost basis in Great Britain, equivalised, 2006-07 to 2008-09 the basic state pension in the next four years. [21835] Percentage Steve Webb: An uprating statement for 2011 benefit Bottom decile 9 rates will be made in the House later this year and will Second decile 20 include pension credit. The Government have committed Third decile 14 to the “triple guarantee” for the uprating of basic state Fourth decile 10 pension and in 2011 we will ensure the majority of Fifth decile 10 those on pension credit will benefit from at least the Sixth decile 8 cash increase in the basic state pension. There is a Seventh decile 11 statutory requirement to increase the standard minimum Eighth decile 11 guarantee at least in line with earnings each year. Ninth decile 6 Top decile 2 Pensions Notes: 1. Estimates are derived from the Family Resources Survey and are Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State based on a three year average to help take account of small sample for Work and Pensions whether he has made a recent sizes in certain deciles and statistical variation across the years. 2. Estimates are rounded to the nearest percentage point, so the estimate of the proportion of spending on (a) the deciles may not sum to 100% due to rounding. basic state pension, (b) the savings credit and (c) 3. The income measures used to derive the estimates shown employ guarantee credit which is received by each decile of the the same methodology as the Department for Work and Pensions population. [20530] publication ‘Households Below Average Income’ series. 4. The income of single pensioners are divided by 0.58 to take account of their costs relative to a pensioner couple household who have Steve Webb: The information requested is as follows: shared costs—this is known as equivalisation. The quintiles and (a) Information on the proportion of benefit spending deciles are derived using OECD equivalisation factors. on basic state pension by income deciles is not available 5. The Family Resources Survey is known to undercount receipt of exactly as requested. Information set out in the following certain benefits. This methodology assumes that this undercount is spread proportionally across deciles. table shows the proportion of the expenditure on overall state pension (basic state pension and additional pension) Take up of the guarantee credit pension credit was by equivalised household income deciles on an after between 71% and 81% of those estimated to be entitled housing cost basis. Estimates are derived from the Family in 2008-09. The majority of pensioners in the lowest Resources Survey and are based on a three year average decile appear from the data collected in the Family to help take account of small sample sizes in certain Resources Survey to have an entitlement to pension deciles and statistical variation across the years. credit but have not made a claim so pension credit expenditure on pensioners in the lowest decile is relatively The proportion of spending on state pension by pensioner income decile basic state pension and additional pension for pensioners on an low. after housing cost basis in Great Britain, equivalised, 2006-07 to Pension credit recipients within the top four deciles 2008-09 generally have severe disabilities, which entitle them to Percentage disability benefits and premiums which increase their Bottom decile 8 income to reflect the additional costs of disability. The Second decile 9 breakdown of income takes no account of the extra costs of disability. In addition pensioner’s income is 935W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 936W assessed independently of the wider household to establish Maria Miller: The Minister for Disabled People and entitlement to pension credit. No account is taken of departmental officials recently met with trade union the income of the wider household, whose income representatives to listen to their views on the future of raises the household equivalised income to the higher Remploy. We will continue to work with and listen to deciles. the views of the trade unions, Remploy employees and all those who have a close interest in Remploy. Pensions: Females The review of Remploy Ltd was in connection with its status as a non-departmental public body. The status Mrs Chapman: To ask the Secretary of State for of Remploy as a non-departmental public body also Work and Pensions how many married women eligible remains unchanged. In the light of the spending review to claim a state pension on the basis of their husband’s settlement I can also confirm that the budget for Remploy contributions did so in each year prior to March 2008 Ltd remains unchanged. for which figures are available; how many such claims Remploy continues to be part of the Government’s were successful; and what estimate he has made of the programme of support to help severely disabled people number of eligible married women who failed to claim. into work. I do, however, want to look at how we ensure [20854] continued improvements in the service provided by Remploy to disabled people. I will continue to work Steve Webb: The information is not available in the closely with Remploy and other key stakeholders in format requested. Such information as is available is in order to achieve this. the following table. This includes married women who are entitled to some basic state pension based on their Sky Lanterns: Safety own national insurance contributions, which has been increased up to the level of the Category B pension Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for using their husband’s national insurance contribution Work and Pensions what recent representations his record. Department has received on the safety instructions on Married women receiving a basic state pension based on their sky lanterns. [21006] husband’s national insurance contribution record (a Category B pension)—Time series: March 1995 to February 20081 Mr Davey [holding answer 1 November 2010]: Ihave Category B pension been asked to reply. March each year We have received no recent representations specifically concerning the safety instructions on sky lanterns. However, 19952 2,106,900 BIS and the Department for Environment, Food and 1996 2,141,400 Rural Affairs, are aware of the broader safety concerns 1997 2,176,800 with these products. In August, BIS wrote to local 1998 2,208,300 authority trading standards services, asking them to 1999 2,233,200 make importers aware that some sky lanterns lacked 2000 2,253,100 full instructions, and encouraging them to get manufacturers 2001 2,252,400 to address this problem. 2002 2,251,700 February each year Social Security Benefits: Fraud 20033 2,280,480 2004 2,281,620 Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 2005 2,260,270 and Pensions how many calls the National Benefit 2006 2,224,160 Fraud Hotline received in each of the last five years; 2007 2,183,890 and what proportion of those calls were referred to (a) 2008 2,138,380 the Fraud Investigation Service and (b) Customer Compliance each year. [22080] 1 Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study (WPLS) 100% data is the preferred source when producing analysis. When WPLS 100% data is not available then sample data is used instead. WPLS state pension Chris Grayling: Every call to the National Benefit data is available from May 2002—prior to that sample data is used. Fraud Hotline is examined by the Department. Where 2 March 1995 to March 2002. Caseload figures are rounded to the there is enough evidence to indicate potential benefit nearest hundred. Numbers are based on a 5% sample and are therefore fraud the case is passed to either the Fraud Investigation subject to a degree of sampling variation. Figures are rated in line with the WPLS total caseload. Service for further investigation or to our Customer 3 February 2003 to February 2008 Caseload figures are rounded to the Compliance teams in Jobcentre Plus who will scrutinise nearest ten. the relevant benefit claim and make adjustments to Source: entitlements as necessary. March 1995 to March 2002: DWP Information Directorate 5% sample data. The number of calls received in each of the last five February 2003 to February 2008: DWP Information Directorate years is set out in the following table: Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study (WPLS) 100% data. National Benefit Fraud Hotline Remploy Calls received 2005-06 211,599 Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 2006-07 215,924 and Pensions what recent discussions he has had with 2007-08 237,101 (a) management and (b) employees of Remploy; what 2008-09 241,159 plans he has for the future of Remploy; and if he will 2009-10 253,708 make a statement. [21031] 937W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 938W

Information on the proportion of calls referred to the Council Housing: Finance Fraud Investigation Service and Customer Compliance each year is not readily available. I will write to the hon. Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for Member when the information is available and a copy Communities and Local Government what assumptions of this letter will be placed in the Library. his Department has made on the rates of construction of new council dwellings in developing its proposed new Work Capability Assessment: Appeals framework for council house finance. [21953]

Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Stunell: A self-financing settlement will provide Work and Pensions what his most recent estimate is of all local authorities with sufficient resources to maintain the cost to the public purse of appeals proceedings their existing stock in a decent condition. It will also against medical assessment decisions relating to provide some capacity for local authorities to build new disability living allowance in the latest period for which council homes, but that is very much a local decision for figures are available. [18680] the authorities concerned. Departmental Public Expenditure Maria Miller: We are unable to provide the cost to the public purse of appeal proceedings against medical Dr Phillip Lee: To ask the Secretary of State for assessment decisions relating to disability living allowance Communities and Local Government what mechanisms (DLA). DLA appeals can be made against all decisions are in place to ensure that his Department’s decisions and the management information systems of the Pension, on regional funding allocations are based on the most Disability and Carers Service (PDCS) and the Tribunal recent available population data. [20690] Service do not go to the level of detail that would identify those appeals specifically related to medical Robert Neill: The Department for Communities and assessments. Local Government is a contributor to the regional The total number of appeals in relation to the total development agency single pot. Population data were number of decisions made for DLA for the period used as a factor shaping funding allocations to RDAs 2009-10 is shown in the following table: following spending review 2007 and before. Allocations to RDAs following conclusion of spending review 2010 Number will be determined shortly but are likely to be based on the levels of legal commitment and anticipated closure Total DLA decisions for 957,000 costs. 2009-10 DLA decisions made by the 51,000 EU Grants and Loans appeals service Note: Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Figures rounded to the nearest thousand. Communities and Local Government what discussions Source: he has had with (a) ministerial colleagues and (b) officials Department for Work and Pensions—RDA60209, 60205 and 80123 of his Department on the future arrangements for reports Management Information Statistics. handling of funds from the European Regional Development Fund by Government Departments. [22084] COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Robert Neill: We are currently considering the future arrangements for running European Regional Development Audit Commission: Public Appointments Fund programmes in the regions, after the abolition of the regional development agencies. This has included Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for discussions at ministerial and official level. We will Communities and Local Government whether his make an announcement when the decision has been Department sought legal advice on its decision not to reached. reappoint Ms Jenny Watson to the board of the Audit Fire Services: Industrial Disputes Commission; and if he will make a statement. [21340] Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Robert Neill [holding answer 2 November 2010]: Communities and Local Government what recent Decisions about reappointments to the Board of the assessment he has made of the preparedness of local Audit Commission were taken in accordance with the fire authorities and the readiness of contingency plans Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments’ in the event of industrial action. [18881] code of practice, which does not involve the seeking of legal advice about appointment decisions. Robert Neill: It is vitally important that fire and The Secretary of State decided to recruit by open rescue authorities have robust business continuity plans competition new Commissioners to the Commission’s in place to deal with serious disruptive events. This is Board to bring new private sector expertise and skills to not only their statutory duty, but what their communities help with the upcoming transition of the audit practice will expect. The current strike action in London highlights into the private sector. He has now appointed three new the need to have comprehensive plans in place. Commissioners with such experience to the board. The Government have taken a more proactive stance I have placed in the Library of the House a copy of in assessing the effectiveness of business continuity the letter relating to the decision not to reappoint Ms arrangements in Fire and Rescue Authorities. A recent Watson. Audit Commission report concluded that these were 939W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 940W satisfactory. We will be working with the sector to Local Government Executive reassess the position and I have asked the Chief Fire and Rescue Adviser to monitor and report in the new Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for year. Communities and Local Government when he plans to bring forward proposals to enable local authorities to return to the committee system of government. [21893] Fire Services: West Midlands Robert Neill: As set out in our coalition agreement, Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for “The Coalition: Our Programme for Government”, we Communities and Local Government whether (a) he are committed to allow councils to return to the committee and (b) officials in his Department have had meetings system should they wish to. We intend to provide for with public affairs companies working on behalf of this in our forthcoming Localism Bill. West Midlands Fire Authority since his appointment. [21696] Local Government: Redundancy

Robert Neill: Neither Ministers, nor officials in the Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Department of Communities and Local Government Communities and Local Government if he will make have had any meetings with public affairs companies an estimate of the number of redundancies likely to be working on behalf of West Midlands Fire and Rescue made by local authorities as a result of the spending Authorities. Ministers and officials meet with MPs, reductions proposed in the Comprehensive Spending councillors and Fire Authority officials on a range of Review. [21583] matters from time to time. As the Secretary of State made clear in his press notice of 5 August, local authorities Robert Neill: It is for individual councils to make should not feel the need to waste taxpayers’ money on local decisions about how their work forces are organised professional public affairs companies to make and managed to deliver efficient services for local taxpayers representations to Government. within the resources they have available.

Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Housing Benefit: Homelessness Communities and Local Government if he will make an estimate of the likely cost to local authorities of Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for staff redundancy arising from the spending reductions Communities and Local Government what guidance he proposed in the comprehensive spending review. [21584] has issued concerning the status as unintentionally homeless of local housing allowance claimants who Robert Neill: Redundancy decisions are for individual have (a) left their home, (b) accrued rent arrears councils to take within the discretions provided by the arising from a shortfall between rents charged and Local Government (Early Termination of Employment) allowance payable and (c) applied as homeless to local (Discretionary Compensation) (England and Wales) authorities. [22094] Regulations 2006.

Grant Shapps: Chapter 11 of the “Homelessness Code Members: Correspondence of Guidance for Local Authorities”, issued under section 182 of the Housing Act 1996, provides guidance on Amber Rudd: To ask the Secretary of State for intentional homelessness. Chapter 11 includes the following: Communities and Local Government when he plans to “For homelessness to be intentional, the act or omission that respond to the letter of 7 October 2010 from the hon. led to homelessness must have been deliberate, and applicants Member for Hastings and Rye on the Bellwin Fund. must always be given the opportunity to explain such behaviour. An act or omission should not generally be treated as deliberate, [21196] even where deliberately carried out, if it is forced upon the applicant through no fault of their own.” Robert Neill: I replied to my hon. Friend on 28 October. (paragraph 11.16); “Generally, an act or omission should not be considered Opencast Mining: Planning Permission deliberate where: i) the act or omission was non-payment of rent which was the result of housing benefit delays or financial difficulties Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for which were beyond the applicant’s control;” Communities and Local Government if he will review (paragraph 11.17); his Department’s planning guidance on the distance “An applicant’s actions would not amount to intentional between residential homes and open cast mining areas homelessness where he or she has lost his or her home, or was for the purposes of aligning it with the equivalent obliged to sell it, because of rent or mortgage arrears resulting guidance in Scotland. [21698] from significant financial difficulties, and the applicant was genuinely unable to keep up the rent or mortgage payments even after Robert Neill: We will publish and present to Parliament claiming benefits, and no further financial help was available.” a simple and consolidated national planning policy (paragraph 11.18); and framework covering all forms of development and setting “An applicant cannot be treated as intentionally homeless out national economic, environmental and social priorities. unless it would have been reasonable for him or her to have We will make an announcement on how we propose to continued to occupy the accommodation.” take forward the national planning framework and the (paragraph 11.22). implications for specific areas of planning policy shortly. 941W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 942W

Overseas Visits: Public Expenditure purpose of each overseas visit undertaken by the right hon. Member for Tooting when he was Parliamentary Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for Under-Secretary of State in his Department. [20157] Communities and Local Government if he will list the (a) destination, (b) cost to the public purse and (c) Robert Neill: The information requested is as follow:

Total cost including travel and Date Destination Purpose of visit accommodation (£)

5-9 April 2009 Karachi, Islamabad and Mirpur, Pakistan Ministerial visit on preventing extremism 5,028 17-20 May 2009 Riyadh, Mecca and Medina, Saudi Arabia Ministerial visit on preventing extremism 2,332

Parish Councils: Disclosure of Information (2) how many and what proportion of people aged 25 to 35 who live in the private rented sector but do not Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for claim housing benefit occupy shared housing in each Communities and Local Government what steps his (a) region, (b) local authority, (c) constituency and Department is taking to ensure transparency in the (d) broad rental market area; [19880] activities of parish councils. [21434] (3) how many and what proportion of properties in each (a) region, (b) local authority, (c) constituency Robert Neill: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer and (d) broad rental market area are shared given to him by my right hon. Friend, the Secretary of accommodation. [19884] State for Communities and Local Government on 21 October 2010, Official Report, column 813W. It is Steve Webb: I have been asked to reply. important that there is transparency in the activities of Information on the number of dwellings available in parish and towns councils, and accordingly we are shared accommodation in the private rented sector is requesting them to publish details of items of expenditure not available. In 2012, the local housing allowance rates over £500 online, so that local electors know how their will be set at the 30th percentile of rents in each broad council tax is being spent. We will continue to work rental market area, ensuring that 30 percent of properties, with parish councils to help ensure that they can fulfil for each property size, would be affordable under the this request. local housing allowance arrangements. Planning Permission Social Rented Housing Fiona Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what guidance Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for his Department issues on the period within which a Communities and Local Government what estimate he local authority must issue a written decision notice has made of the number of individuals in households following a strategic planning committee decision to in which at least one member works for at least refuse planning approval. [21597] 16 hours per week who will (a) have their income Robert Neill: The Department does not issue guidance reduced and (b) fall below the equivalised poverty on this matter. Local authorities are required to determine threshold of 60 per cent. of median household income planning applications within the timeframes set out in as a result of his proposals on the level of rent which Article 29 of the Town and Country Planning (Development social landlords may charge new tenants. [21917] Management Procedure) (England) Order 2010. For an application for major development, this is 13 weeks, in Grant Shapps: We will publish more detail on the respect of any development that is not major development, implementation of new ‘affordable rent’ tenure shortly. 8 weeks, and in cases where the application is subject to Existing social tenants will retain their existing rights an Environmental Impact Assessment, 16 weeks, or and tenure. Our proposals will involve increasing the such extended period as may have been agreed in writing affordable housing stock, increasing opportunity and between the applicant and the local planning authority. quality of life for those currently on housing waiting lists. Where a local authority fails to determine an application within the set timescales, an applicant has the right of Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities appeal against non-determination under section 78 of and Local Government how many households in social the Town and Country Planning Act 1990. housing have registered for a transfer to smaller Private Rented Housing accommodation (a) nationally and (b) in each region in the latest period in which figures are available. [22101] Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (1) what his estimate Andrew Stunell: The information requested is not is of the number of rooms available in the private rented collected centrally. sector in shared accommodation in each (a) region, (b) local authority, (c) constituency and (d) broad Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities rental market area; and what his estimate is the proportion and Local Government how many transfers from larger of such rooms which will be offered at rents below the to smaller properties took place within the social housing local housing allowance rates in 2012; [19857] sector in the last 12 months. [22102] 943W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 944W

Andrew Stunell: According to the Department’s HSSA DEFENCE local authority return, in 2008-09 local authorities made a total of 30,896 lettings to tenants who were transferring Nuclear Missile Sharing within the same LA. Of these a total of 6,830 lettings (22% of the total) involved a move to a property with Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for fewer bedrooms than they had in their previous home. Defence if he will review the position set out in the Equivalent figures for housing associations are not December 2006 exchange of letters between the then available. Prime Minister and the President of the United States on nuclear missile sharing to take account of the Further information on social lettings is published in current economic climate. [20628] the live tables at the following link: http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingresearch/ Dr Fox: We continue to believe that the arrangements housingstatistics/housingstatisticsby/rentslettings/livetables/ outlined in the December 2006 exchange of letters between the then Prime Minister and President of the Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities United States represents excellent value for money for and Local Government what recent estimate he has the United Kingdom. Therefore we believe that, especially made of the average waiting time for households in the in the current economic climate, it makes sense to social rented sector seeking properties with (a) one continue cooperation with the US through the auspices bedroom, (b) two bedrooms, (c) three bedrooms and of the Polaris Sales Agreement and Mutual Defence (d) four bedrooms or more in each (i) region and (ii) Agreement. local housing authority area in the latest period in Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations which figures are available. [22103] Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Stunell: The information requested is not Defence how much his Department plans to spend on collected centrally. operations in Afghanistan in each of the next four years. [21295]

Supporting People Programme Dr Fox: The Government will fully fund the net additional costs of military operations in Afghanistan Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for from the Government reserve. For the spending review Communities and Local Government whether he plans period years, the special reserve has been forecast at to reduce the funding allocated to the Supporting £4 billion, £3.8 billion, £3.8 billion and £3.5 billion. People budget for local authorities by the same amount The specific costs of operations in Afghanistan at in each year of the spending review period; and if he any time, will be dependent on a range of factors will make a statement. [22117] including the nature of the mission, the size of the deployed force, the operational tempo, and the level of spend on urgent operational requirements. The precise Andrew Stunell: The Supporting People programme spend is, therefore, difficult to predict at any given national allocation (England) for the current financial range. Accordingly, the Department requests resources year and each year of the spending review are: from Parliament on an annual basis, through the supply Supporting People estimates process, using updated forecasts in each financial £ million year. 2010-11 1,636.00 Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011-12 1,625.00 Defence how many of each type of Royal Air Force 2012-13 1,620.00 combat aircraft are deployed in Afghanistan. [21838] 2013-14 1,620.00 2014-15 1,590.21 Nick Harvey: There are currently 10 UK Tornado GR4 aircraft deployed in Afghanistan. Individual local authority allocations will form part of the local government announcement to be made in Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for December. Defence what the Royal Air Force command structure is on the ground in Afghanistan. [21840]

Supporting People Programme: Brighton Mr Robathan: There are two UK Expeditionary Air Wings deployed in Afghanistan, one at Camp Bastion and the other at Kandahar Airfield. These report to the Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for UK’s Air Component Commander based in Al Udeid, Communities and Local Government if he will estimate Qatar. the change in the Supporting People budget for Brighton and Hove City Council in each year of the spending Air Force: Deployment review period; and if he will make a statement. [22118] Mr Russell Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Stunell: Individual local authority Supporting Defence on how many occasions Royal Air Force People programme allocations will form part of the fighters were scrambled from each base to intercept local government announcement to be made in December. aircraft in the last 12 months. [21836] 945W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 946W

Nick Harvey: Royal Air Force Quick Reaction Alert Percentage (QRA) aircraft have launched on 13 separate days Royal Marine between 1 November 2009 and 31 October 2010. Commando Infantry QRA aircraft are held at ground readiness at RAF Coningsby and RAF Leuchars. I am withholding the Medically Not 5.9 7.2 information as to which base QRA aircraft were launched Deployable Notes: from for each incident as its disclosure would, or would 1. Royal Marine Commando has been defined as all trained regular be likely to prejudice the capability, effectiveness or Royal Marines excluding Royal Marines Band. security of the armed forces. 2. The figures are for trained Regular Forces only and therefore exclude Gurkhas, Full Time Reserve Service, Mobilised Reserves, Aircraft Carriers TA and all other Reserves. Other factors may lead to an individual being unable Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for to deploy at any given time, such as absence on a Defence what estimate he has made of the cost to the training course. Data relating to such additional reasons public purse of his proposed modifications to aircraft are not held centrally and could only be determined by carrier catapult-launch and arresting-gear operations. conducting a manual search of records on multiple [21312] sites. Peter Luff: As announced on 19 October 2010, we Armed Forces: Disability Living Allowance plan to deliver the carrier strike capability from around 2020 with the carrier variant of the Joint Strike Fighter and Queen Elizabeth class carrier fitted with catapults Laura Sandys: To ask the Secretary of State for and arrestor gear to enhance the capability of UK Defence for what reason injured personnel assessed by carrier strike. We are investigating the optimum means the Service Personnel and Veterans Agency are of achieving this outcome, working with industry and required to undergo assessment by the Department for our international partners. No decisions have been taken Work and Pensions in order to claim disability living as to the type of system, delivery dates or procurement allowance. [21360] route, or whether both carriers will be converted. Until this work is complete, it is too early to provide an Mr Robathan: The War Pension Scheme (WPS) accurate estimate of the cost. administered by the Ministry of Defence (MOD) provides no-fault compensation to all former service personnel Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for where illness, injury or death is caused by service before Defence what the correspondence address is of each 6 April 2005. Where there is an entitlement to supplier of (a) equipment, (b) personnel, (c) parts supplementary allowances under this scheme these are and (d) assembly facilities for the aircraft carrier paid by the MOD. However, a pensioner cannot receive project; and how many such suppliers there are in each these allowances at the same time as receiving benefits (i) Government office region, (ii) local authority area for the same condition(s) from the Department for and (iii) parliamentary constituency. [21439] Work and Pensions (DWP). For example, a pensioner in receipt of War Pension Mobility Supplement (WPMS) Peter Luff: I will place the available information in cannot also receive the mobility component of disability the Library of the House in respect of the members of living allowance (DLA) from the DWP. the Aircraft Carrier Alliance and the sub-contractors supporting the build of the Queen Elizabeth Class Armed Forces: Housing aircraft carriers. Armed Forces: Deployment Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many units of each type of living accommodation are available at (a) RAF Marham and Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for (b) RAF Lossiemouth; and what the rate of occupancy Defence what the deployability ratios for (a) the Royal of each type is. [21441] Marine Commando and (b) the Army infantry are. [21272] Mr Robathan: At RAF Marham there are 641 service family accommodation (SFA) properties, of which 584 Nick Harvey: The information is not held in the are currently occupied, and 1,195 single living format requested. accommodation (SLA) bedspaces of which 1,162 are The following table indicates what proportion of occupied. Royal Marine Commandos and Army Infantry were At RAF Lossiemouth there are 175 SFA, of which medically fully deployable, medically limited deploy 165 are occupied and 862 SLA of which 853 are occupied. able, or medically not deployable as at 1 September Some families based at Lossiemouth may also reside in 2010. SFA at Elgin. Percentage Royal Marine Armed Forces: Redundancy Commando Infantry

Medically Fully 87.8 82.6 Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Deployable Defence what proportion of the 17,000 reduction in Medically Limited 6.4 10.2 Armed Forces personnel he expects to be achieved Deployable through redundancy. [19543] 947W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 948W

Mr Robathan: Every opportunity will be taken to Ballistic Missile Defence reduce manpower through natural wastage and reduced intake. Where this cannot be achieved a targeted redundancy Mr Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State programme will go ahead. for Defence which military bases in the UK (a) form part of and (b) provide support services for the US Missile Defense System; what support for the system is Army: Reorganisation provided in each case; and if he will make a statement. [21161] Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence by what means he plans to reform the Nick Harvey: The UK provides support to the US structure of the Army without altering the structure of Ballistic Missile Defense system by sharing radar early infantry battalions; and if he will make a statement. warning information from RAF Fylingdales and by [21300] allowing the US to use a ground station at RAF Menwith Hill to receive satellite early warning information. This Nick Harvey: The Strategic Defence and Security information is routed into the US Ballistic Missile Defense Review has determined that the Army should be command and control system. restructured into five multi-role brigades (MRBs) designed Challenger Tanks to make the Army more flexible. This restructuring will take place alongside measures to reduce the size of the Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Army by approximately 7,000 by 2015. Detailed planning Defence where the remaining Challenger 2 tanks will to determine exactly how and when this restructuring be based after 2015; and if he will make a statement. will be done is now under way. All infantry battalions [21402] will be incorporated into the new Army structure, while the reductions in personnel will be found from Mr Robathan [holding answer 2 November 2010]: administrative and supporting elements such as Following the strategic defence and security review’s headquarters staff and some combat support and combat conclusion that the Army should reduce the number of service support force elements. Infantry battalions will Challenger 2 tanks, detailed work on planning and not operate exclusively under the MRB structure, as implementation has now begun. This will determine they are routinely attributed to other military tasks. where the Army’s Challenger 2 tanks will be based after 2015. Factors likely to affect this work will include the Army’s accelerated withdrawal from Germany, revised Astute Class Submarines fleet management options and training requirements, and ongoing work on the future of the Defence estate. Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Clyde Naval Base Defence when each boat in the Astute-class submarine flotilla will enter service; what stage of production has Mr Reid: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence been reached in respect of each boat which has been what estimate he has made of the number of (a) ordered; and when he expects each of the remaining service personnel, (b) civilian staff directly employed boats to be ordered. [21108] by his Department and (c) civilian staff employed by contractors who (i) are based at HMNB Clyde and (ii) Peter Luff: On 19 October 2010, the Strategic Defence will be based at HMNB Clyde after it becomes the base and Security Review (SDSR) (Cm7948) confirmed the for all Royal Navy submarines. [21406] Department’s intention to purchase seven Astute class submarines. Since 1997, contracts have been awarded Peter Luff [holding answer 2 November 2010]: that relate to six Astute submarines. Boats 1 to 3 were Approximately 3,300 military personnel and 1,390 Ministry ordered as one batch and subsequent orders for Boats 4 of Defence civilians are employed at Faslane and Coulport, to 6 have followed the previous Government’s policy of the two main sites at Her Majesty’s Naval Base Clyde. incremental approval. In addition there are some 1,600 civilians employed by The First of Class, HMS Astute, was commissioned contractors. into the Royal Navy on 27 August 2010 and is currently The Government are committed to the Maritime undertaking a period of extensive sea trials before she is Change Programme, which will make HMNB Clyde the handed over to the Royal Navy for operational service. main operating base for all classes of submarine. We are Production of Boats 2 to 5 continues at BAE Systems now assessing the impact of these changes across Defence, Submarine Solutions’ shipyard in Barrow-in-Furness, including personnel, accommodation, support and and earlier this year long lead items for Boat 6 were infrastructure. ordered. Defence: Finance As part of the SDSR, which included a commitment to build a seventh boat, the Department also detailed its Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for intention to work with British industry to improve Defence with reference to Securing Britain in an Age of efficiency and optimise to expected demand its capacity Uncertainty, Cm 7948, page 15, to which projects the to build and support submarines. The outcome of this £38 billion of unfunded liabilities relate. [19641] work will inform the future contracting milestones and in-service dates for the Astute class of submarines. It Dr Fox: The £38 billion figure refers to the estimated will not be possible to confirm this information until it difference between the cost of the Defence programme has been approved through the Department’s and HM and the Ministry of Defence budget under an assumed Treasury’s formal investment approvals process. flat real settlement over the 10 years 2011-12 to 2020-21, 949W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 950W prior to the outcomes of the Strategic Defence and planned. The steering group will report to a Whitehall Security Review. The figure is based on a number of Liaison Group to ensure cross-Government coherence. assumptions, including inflation, fuel prices, foreign exchange rates and armed forces pay awards, and has Departmental Manpower the potential, therefore, to change over time.

Unfunded liability over 10 years Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for (£ billion) Defence how many (a) military and (b) civilian personnel in (i) his Department and (ii) each of the Equipment procurement and 20.5 armed services are employed at each rank or grade in support each (A) Government office region, (B) local authority 1 Other pressures 17.7 area and (C) parliamentary constituency. [21241] Total 38.2 1 Of which service manpower costs above inflation are £4.4 billion Mr Robathan: Details of the number and location of military personnel broken down by Service, county, Departmental Contracts unitary authority and local authority area are available on the following website: Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.dasa.mod.uk/applications/newWeb/www/index. Defence which contracts his Department has php?page=48&pubType=0&thiscontent=100&PublishTime= renegotiated since May 2010; and which contracts it 09:30:00&date=2010-08-26&disText=01% plans to renegotiate following the outcome of the 20Jul%202010&from=listing&topDate=2010-08-26 Strategic Defence and Security Review. [20417] I will place a copy in the Library of the House. Details of civilian personnel numbers and location is Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for produced for the Department as Civilian Personnel Defence what contracts his Department plans to Statistics 06—MOD Civilian Personnel by global and renegotiate; and with which companies he has begun UK locations, a copy of which will be placed in the contract negotiations. [21304] Library of the House. Residential address information for both civilian and Peter Luff: At any one time the Ministry of Defence military personnel is not held with reference to has many thousands of extant contracts. These are not parliamentary constituency. Information on rank or centrally managed. However, during the period from grade is not held in the format requested. May to October 2010 a number of contracts will have been renegotiated as part of routine MOD business. Departmental Redundancy The Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR) set out the capabilities the armed forces require now Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for and in the future. As a consequence, changes are required Defence what estimate he has made of the cost to the to a number of our equipment and support programmes. public purse of (a) 5,000 redundancies from the Royal The MOD will now start to engage its suppliers in Navy, (b) 7,000 redundancies from the Army, (c) commercial renegotiations to implement the major changes 5,000 redundancies from the Royal Air Force and (d) that were announced in the SDSR. We have identified 25,000 redundancies from the civilian staff of his over 600 contracts that are likely to be renegotiated in Department. [21317] this phase of work. At this initial stage we are unable to provide detail on precise contracts and the impact of Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for these renegotiations on defence and associated industries. Defence (1) how much funding to meet staff In parallel, MOD will also be renegotiating some redundancy costs was identified in his Department’s private finance initiative contracts; implementing pan- settlement letter in respect of the Comprehensive government efficiency reform initiatives; introducing an Spending Review; [21523] improved way of managing our estates through Next (2) what estimate he has made of the cost to his Generation Estates Contracts (NGEC); and seeking Department of staff redundancy in each of the next short-term and structural cost reductions. Prior to the four years. [21525] SDSR, the MOD held a series of sessions with key suppliers inviting them to offer innovative cost-effective Mr Robathan: As far as possible, the Ministry of solutions to providing current and future defence Defence will achieve the reductions announced in the capabilities. MOD officials saw 17 major companies, spending review and the Strategic Defence and Security including the MOD’s top 10 suppliers, and received Review through natural wastage. Where this is not more than 100 proposals which could yet yield potentially possible, early release/redundancy schemes will be put significant savings. All of the proposals require further in place. detailed work on legal, financial and commercial issues. The terms of armed forces redundancy schemes are The MOD is also in discussion with the Confederation governed by Statutory Instruments. The compensation of British Industry (CBI) to review the Government paid to civil servants on loss of office is governed by the Profit Formula and its Associated Arrangements (the rules of the Civil Service Compensation Scheme. This is so-called “Yellow Book”). This review will start early in a statutory scheme on which the Minister for the Cabinet the new year and is expected to last for 18 months. Office announced plans for reform in July. Work is The renegotiation process is being led by a steering continuing to finalise the new compensation arrangements group comprising senior members of the MOD, meeting and an Amendment Scheme will be put to Parliament twice a week to ensure efficiencies are delivered as to effect the changes in due course. 951W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 952W

Until the terms for the Civilian Voluntary Early Fleet Air Arm Release Scheme are known, and further detailed planning is complete on where and when the reductions will take Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for place, it is not possible to provide robust estimates of Defence what steps he plans to take to retain the the costs of redundancy. fixed-wing fast-jet flying skills of the Fleet Air Arm The Government do not make public the contents of during any period between the phasing out of Harriers departmental settlement letters. and the phasing in of the Joint Strike Fighter. [20393]

Peter Luff [holding answer 3 November 2010]: We Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for plan to regenerate a Carrier Strike capability by around Defence what estimate he has made of the number of 2020 based on the Queen Elizabeth class carriers and redundancies arising from the spending reductions proposed the more capable Carrier Variant of the Joint Strike in the Comprehensive Spending Review in respect of Fighter(JSF) in a JSF force which will be manned by (a) his Department and (b) its non-departmental public Royal Navy and Royal Air Force personnel. We are bodies. [21524] presently putting together a detailed plan for managing the transition to the new capability. One important Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence estimates element of this will involve the Department working that it will need to make staff reductions of some closely with industry and allies, particularly the US and 25,000 civilian employees and 17,000 service personnel France. As an example, we already have a small team of as a result of the spending review and the strategic Royal Navy and Royal Air Force personnel in the defence and security review. The civilian reductions United States as part of the JSF programme, and we include a presumed transfer of posts outside of the expect their numbers to rise steadily over the next few MOD through the announced sale of the Defence Support years. Group and greater use of contractorisation to undertake Future Large Aircraft support activities. As far as possible, these reductions will be achieved Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for through natural wastage. Where this is not possible, Defence how many A400M aircraft he plans to early release/redundancy schemes will be put in place. procure. [21301] Until further detailed planning is complete, it is not possible to provide detailed estimates of how may Peter Luff: The UK expects to receive no fewer than redundancies will be necessary. In some instances, for 22 A400M aircraft, as published in the Major Projects example where we have decided to sell or outsource the Report 2010. function, reductions will be achieved by the transfer of employees to the private sector. Harrier Aircraft Staffing levels in the MOD’s non-departmental public bodies are a matter for their own management. John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will assess the effect on the capability of any new aircraft carrier of any deletion of Harrier capability [17944] European Fighter Aircraft Peter Luff: The strategic defence and security review is due to be announced to the House on 19 October Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010. Following its publication, I will write to the hon. Defence which air-launched weapons he intends to Member. complement the Typhoon, as referred to in Securing Britain in an Age of Uncertainty. [19557] Substantive answer from Peter Luff to John Glen, dated 3 November 2010: In my response to your recent Parliamentary Question (Official Peter Luff: Typhoon will be equipped with the Paveway Report, 18 October 2010, Column 483W), I offered to write to the IV bomb from 2012. We are also exploring the future honourable Member after the publication of the Strategic Defence integration of the Meteor air to air missile, Brimstone and Security Review to answer his question about the effect on and Storm Shadow air-launched weapons. the UK’s future carrier strike capability of the (SDSR) decision to delete Harrier GR9. As the Prime Minister announced to the House, we have Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for decided to retire the Harrier, which has served this country well Defence what estimate he has made of the cost to the for 40 years. Although the Harrier is a flexible and capable public purse of giving Typhoon an air-to-ground aircraft, against the background of the severe financial pressures capability. [21399] the nation faces, we have concluded that we should sustain the Tornado fleet which is currently supporting operations in Afghanistan, rather than the Harrier. This was a very difficult decision, not Peter Luff [holding answer 2 November 2010]: The least because of its impact on those who have dedicated their lives equipment cost of integrating an air-to-ground capability to flying and supporting the Harrier and those who depend on the programme for their livelihoods. We accept there will be a gap on Typhoon Tranche 1 aircraft is £85 million. The in carrier strike capability until the end of the decade, but judge Typhoon Future Capability Programme is planned to that in the longer term we cannot assume that bases for land-based provide enhancements to Typhoon Tranche 2 aircraft, aircraft will be available when and where we need them. both in the air-to-air and air-to-ground roles. The forecast The SDSR confirmed that we will build both of the carriers, equipment cost of this programme, as published in the but that we only expect to operate one of them at any time, with Major Projects Report 2010, is £489 million. the second ship being held in extended readiness. We also intend 953W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 954W to maximise the carrier’s effectiveness by adapting it to operate Military Aircraft: Sonar the more capable Carrier Variant of the Joint Strike Fighter, which will require the installation of catapults and arrestor gear. This will also provide greater interoperability with key allies, such Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for as the US and France. We are now investigating the optimum Defence which of his Department’s aircraft can deploy means of delivering this outcome. sonar buoys; and what the (a) ferry range and (b) I have asked for a copy of this letter to be placed in the Library combat radius of each such aircraft is. [21443] of the House. Peter Luff: The only aircraft capable of deploying Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for sonobuoys (sonar buoys) is the Royal Navy’s Merlin Defence what steps he plans to take to retrain Harrier HM Mkl helicopter. There are currently 26 Merlin jump jet pilots once the Harrier fleet is retired. [21316] HM Mkl in the forward fleet. To release information on the aircraft’s combat and ferry ranges would allow an Nick Harvey: In the strategic defence and security assessment to be made of the operational capability of review, it was announced that the Harrier fleet will be the fleet and its disclosure would, or would be likely to, retired by 1 April 2011. The Royal Navy and the Royal prejudice the capability, effectiveness and security of Air Force are currently planning for the re-employment our armed forces. of Harrier pilots to fly other aircraft types. The requirement for re-training will be assessed once the plans for Navy re-employment are completed. Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft Defence what the current tasks are of the Royal Navy. [21302] Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what recent discussions he has had with his Nick Harvey: The Royal Navy undertakes a wide US counterpart on his Department’s decision not to variety of tasks and activities around the globe. These purchase the short take-off and vertical landing variant include: of the F35 aircraft. [21269] Op Telic Peter Luff: The Secretary of State for Defence and Maintenance of integrity and security of Iraqi Territorial Seas. the Defence Ministerial Team regularly engage with Op Calash their US counterparts on a range of issues. Recent Counter Piracy and counter smuggling operations within the discussions have included the Strategic Defence and Arabian Sea, Gulf of Aden, and North Indian Ocean. Security Review and our decision to purchase the more Ocean Shield NATO capable carrier-variant of the Joint Striker Fighter aircraft. Counter Piracy and counter smuggling operations within the Arabian Sea, Gulf of Aden, and North Indian Ocean. Military Aircraft: Procurement NATO Standing NATO Maritime Group 1 A continuous maritime capability for mine-countermeasures Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for integration within NATO response force (NRF) operations, non Defence if he will undertake a feasibility study of NRF operations and other activities in peacetime and periods of purchasing a quantity of fast-jet aircraft off-the-shelf crisis and conflict. from existing US stocks of low-cost, carrier-capable Gibraltar Sqn aircraft. [20394] Security of Gibraltar Territorial Seas. Atlantic Patrol Task (North) Peter Luff [holding answer 3 November 2010]: A previous study, which included a comparison with a US (Hurricane season only)—UK’s maritime contribution to the Caribbean and North Atlantic area. Protection of UK interests, in-service, carrier-capable aircraft, concluded that the humanitarian role in response to the natural disasters, especially Joint Strike Fighter provided the best value for money hurricanes, which are prevalent in this region. Additionally working in light of our future capability requirements. The Strategic alongside the US Coastguard and the Royal Netherlands Navy: a Defence and Security Review reaffirmed our commitment significant contribution to the UK’s counter drugs operations. to the Joint Strike Fighter programme. We will keep our Atlantic Patrol Task (South) plans under review as a part of our routine planning. The standing naval commitment to the South Atlantic and West African regions. Provide a maritime presence to protect the Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for British sovereignty of the Falkland Islands, including South Defence how many fewer Tornado GR4 Force and Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands and UK’s interests in F-35 aircraft he now plans to purchase. [21313] the region. Falkland Islands Patrol Ship Peter Luff: The Strategic Defence and Security Review Permanently stationed in the region, responsible for maintaining announced our plans for our fast jet fleet. Prior to the British sovereignty of the Falkland Islands, including South review there were no plans for further purchases of Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands. Tornado GR4 aircraft and this position has not changed. Ice Patrol Ship We intend to buy enough Joint Strike Fighter aircraft to build up our carrier strike capability, and to operate a Antarctic patrol ship during austral summer. balanced fleet of JSF and Typhoon aircraft in the UK Nuclear Deterrent Patrols and Contingency Operations medium to long term. We will confirm the exact number Maritime Security Royal Navy and Royal Marine units at of JSF aircraft in our initial buy at the time of our main readiness to react to any possible threat to the integrity of UK investment decision, in line with usual practice. Territorial Seas and security of the UK. 955W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 956W

Fishery Protection (3) what assessment he has made of the effects on the Patrolling UK’s extended Fisheries Zone. protection of the independent Strategic Nuclear The Royal Navy has also two teams which provide Deterrent of the withdrawal from service of the search and rescue facilities and 3 Commando Brigade Nimrod MRA4; [19562] RM are in preparation for Op Herrick 14. (4) what assets he expects to fill the capability gap left by the withdrawal from service of the Nimrod Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for MRA4. [19563] Defence what estimate he has made of the likely cost to his Department of (a) decommissioning HMS Ark Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Royal, (b) reducing by four the number of frigates, (c) Defence what recent assessment he has made of the placing at extended readiness a landing and command Royal Air Force’s future anti-submarine capability following ship and (d) decommissioning either HMS Ocean or the cancellation of the Nimrod MRA4. [21181] HMS Illustrious. [21332] Peter Luff [holding answer 3 November 2010]: I refer Peter Luff [holding answer 2 November 2010]: Detailed the hon. Members to the answer I gave on 28 October work to estimate the costs of decommissioning these 2010, Official Report, columns 450-51W to the hon. vessels, or placing them at extended readiness, is ongoing Members for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow and will be completed during the Department’s planning (Mr McCann), Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth) round process, and as part of the study to consider and North Durham (Mr Jones). which of HMS Ocean or Illustrious will be retained in service. Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when the first contract to procure the Nimrod Navy: Military Bases MRA4 was signed; and what initial estimate his Department made of the cost of the Nimrod MRA4 Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for project. [21296] Defence what estimate he has made of the likely effect on the number of jobs at HMNB (a) Portsmouth and Peter Luff: The contract for the design, development (b) Devonport of the proposed reduction in the and production of the Nimrod MRA4 aircraft was strength of the Royal Navy; and if he will make a signed in December 1996 and annually reviewed as part statement. [21299] of subsequent planning rounds. The initial approved cost of the demonstration and manufacture phases of Peter Luff: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I the project at Main Gate was £2.813 billion, as reported gave on 27 October 2010, Official Report, column 377W, in the Major Projects Report 2010. to the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Nuclear Submarines: Accidents Doyle).

Nimrod Aircraft Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what estimate he has made of the cost to his Department of repairs to HMS Vanguard as a result of Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for its collision with Le Triomphant in February 2009. Defence (1) what assessment he has made of the likely [20126] effects on the level of aerial anti-shipping defence of the cancellation of the Nimrod MR4A project; [19442] Dr Fox: Following her collision with FS Le Triomphant (2) what estimate he has made of the cost of his in early 2009 repairs to HMS Vanguard were carried Department’s contractual obligations to BAE Systems out on her return to Her Majesty’s Naval Base Clyde of the cancelling of the Nimrod MRA4 programme; under existing support arrangements with Babcock Marine. [19725] The cost of these repairs was approximately £1 million. (3) what assets are deployed in the aerial anti- submarine role; [19726] RAF Kinloss: Rescue Services (4) what assessment he has made of the likely effect on the level of aerial anti-submarine defence of the Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for cancellation of the Nimrod MR4A project; [20199] Defence when he expects to announce his decision on the future of the Mountain Rescue Service at RAF (5) what plans he has for NATO allies to provide Kinloss. [21448] aerial anti-submarine patrolling within UK territorial waters; [20200] Nick Harvey: Work is now under way to consider the (6) what type of avionic suites were purchased for the implications of decisions announced in the Strategic Nimrod MR4A; how many such suites were purchased; Defence and Security Review for UK military bases, and at what cost to the public purse. [20759] including the future of the Mountain Rescue Service at RAF Kinloss. Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) what expenditure his Department expects RAF Menwith Hill to incur in withdrawing the Nimrod MRA4 from service; [19560] Mr Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State (2) what assessment he has made of the effects on the for Defence whether his Department owns the protection of overseas territories of the withdrawal buildings and other infrastructure on the American from service of the Nimrod MRA4; [19561] base at RAF Menwith Hill. [21159] 957W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 958W

Nick Harvey: All buildings, fixed assets and site and Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence infrastructure at RAF Menwith Hill are owned by the when he expects to enter into contractual arrangements Ministry of Defence. for long-lead items on the Future Submarine Programme; what estimate he has made of the total cost of such Rosyth Dockyard: Radiation Exposure items; what assessment he has made of the capability of such arrangements with arrangements for review by Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Parliament of all options of Main Gate, including Defence what recent assessment he has made of the cancellation; and what consideration he has given to adequacy of the radiation protection measures at the ensuring that cancellation fees for long-lead item contracts Rosyth Royal Dockyard since radioactive contamination do not restrict the consideration of alternatives. [20719] was found in the personal lockers of workers at the dockyard; and what recent changes have been made to Peter Luff: Contractual arrangements for long lead health protection measures for employees at that dockyard. items for both the submarine platform and propulsion [21068] systems will be entered into as necessary during the programme’s assessment phase to prevent unnecessary Peter Luff: All nuclear safety matters relating to delays to the programme. Final decisions on the long Rosyth Royal Dockyard are a matter for Babcock Marine lead items required during the assessment phase will be (Rosyth) Ltd, the owners of the dockyard. It is a made as part of, and following, the initial gate approvals condition of their contract with the Ministry of Defence process. It is too early to state the costs of these items. that they must comply with all nuclear safety regulations Long lead items are those that it is necessary to including the Ionising Radiation Regulations 1999. contract for ahead of the main gate decision point. The Royal Fleet Auxiliary: Manpower procurement of long lead items across Ministry of Defence projects does not constrain main gate decisions and any such early commitment takes into account the John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for balance of risk of a project not securing main gate Defence (1) what forecast he has made of manning approval. levels in the Royal Fleet Auxiliary in each of the next five years; [20446] Territorial Army: Finance (2) how many people were employed in the Royal Fleet Auxiliary at the latest date for which figures are Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for available. [20447] Defence what estimate he has made of cost savings required of the Territorial Army in the next five years. Peter Luff [holding answer 2 November 2010]: At 1 [21401] October 2010, around 2,370 people were employed in the Royal Fleet Auxiliary (RFA). The future size of the Mr Robathan [holding answer 2 November 2010]: RFA and future RFA manning levels are likely to be The strategic defence and security review and spending affected by the reductions in the size of the surface fleet review settlement are not predicated on any assumed announced in the Strategic Defence and Security Review savings against the Territorial Army. The six month and the RFA value for money review. The details have study into the reserves will examine whether they are yet to be fully determined and will be announced in due properly structured to enable the Ministry of Defence course. to make the most efficient use of their skills, experience Sea King Helicopters and capabilities in the modern era. It is too early to assess whether any cost savings will result from the Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence study. what timetable he has set for the Westland Sea King Trident HAR3 helicopters to be taken out of service. [21271]

Peter Luff: It is planned that all Sea King Mk3/3a Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for helicopters will be withdrawn from service by the end of Defence on what date he was first informed that 2016. Trident would be included in the Strategic Defence and Security Review; and if he will make a statement. Submarines: Finance [20396]

Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Dr Fox [holding answer 3 November 2010]: The Defence what estimate he has made of the lifetime Government made clear that they were committed to costs of the Future Submarine Programme. [20627] retaining a nuclear deterrent based on Trident, so the decision did not need to be revisited in the strategic Dr Fox: The Value for Money Review concluded that defence and security review. However, the Ministry of the overall cost of the submarine and warhead replacement Defence has been very clear that the value for money programmes and associated infrastructure remains within review was conducted within the framework of the the £20 billion cost estimate foreseen in the 2006 White strategic defence and security review. Paper (Cm6994) at 2006 prices. As the White Paper also makes clear, once the new Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for fleet of ballistic missile submarines come into service Defence what advice from the military he received, and we expect that the in-service costs of the UK’s nuclear on what date, recommending postponing the main gate deterrent, which will include the Atomic Weapons decision for the Trident successor system until 2016. Establishment’s costs, will be similar to today. [20397] 959W Written Answers4 NOVEMBER 2010 Written Answers 960W

Dr Fox [holding answer 3 November 2010]: The senior of formulating policy. Some of these have been published Ministry of Defence officials, military and civilian, to help inform the public debate. Release of further responsible for leading the Successor ballistic missile detail may prejudice the MOD’s negotiating position submarine programme were and are content that 2016 with its commercial suppliers. Furthermore, final savings is a realistic date at which to take the Main Gate figures will depend on detailed implementation. The decision, given a 2028 in-service date for the first of the MOD is therefore not prepared to release more detailed new submarines. This was reflected in advice approved figures at this time. by the National Security Council, which includes myself and the Chief of the Defence Staff. Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what assessment his Department has made of Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for the feasibility of alternative systems to Trident to Defence what his most recent estimate is of the cost to provide the United Kingdom’s nuclear deterrent; and if his Department of the UK’s contribution to the he will make a statement. [21107] Trident D5 missile life extension programme; what Dr Fox: The Trident value for money review did not contingency arrangements he has put in place to look at alternatives to a submarine-launched ballistic-missile provide for budget overspends on the programme; and system. what level of overspend those arrangements allow for. [20629] Warships

Dr Fox: It is currently estimated that the cost of the Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for UK’s participation in the Trident D5 missile life extension Defence what progress his Department has made on the programme will remain within the £250 million figure design of the Future Surface Combatant; and whether stated in the December 2006 White Paper, “The Future the programme will incorporate modules that enable of the United Kingdom’s Nuclear Deterrent” (Cm 6994). the subsequent incorporation of additional weapons systems. [21180] There are no specific contingency arrangements for budgetary overspends aside from the existing departmental Peter Luff: The Type 26 Global Combat Ship project project approvals and budgetary planning processes. entered its Assessment Phase in March 2010, and a four-year contract was placed with BAE Systems Surface Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Ships to work with the Ministry of Defence to produce Defence pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for a full design specification to be taken into the demonstration Wyre and Preston North of 22 October 2010, Official and build phases. Report, column 883W,on Trident, what the three additional The Type 26 Global Combat Ship programme is Long Overhaul Periods will be for each submarine; and adopting a through-life capability management approach, what proportion of the estimated £1.3 billion cost will which will plan the evolution of the combat and weapons fall (a) in the current period up to 2014-15 and (b) the systems through the life of the vessel. The design intent period 2015-16 to 2020-21. [21065] is to have a combat system that will be flexible to future change and which would enable the addition of alternative/ Dr Fox: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) made new systems or modules during the life of the platform; estimates of the cost savings accrued from measures in this approach will also enhance the export potential for the Strategic Defence and Security Review for the purposes this class of ship.

ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 4 November 2010

Col. No. Col. No. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS— AFFAIRS...... 1025 continued Agricultural Wages Board...... 1036 Farming Industry...... 1039 Badgers (Bovine Tuberculosis) ...... 1036 Forestry Commission...... 1028 Biodiversity...... 1026 Landfill ...... 1032 Child Labour (Farming and Food Sectors) ...... 1038 Local Rural Environments ...... 1034 Common Agricultural Policy ...... 1033 Natural England ...... 1025 Covanta (Mid Bedfordshire) ...... 1035 Sugar Beet Industry ...... 1037 Dangerous Dogs ...... 1032 Topical Questions ...... 1040 Environmental Sustainability ...... 1037 Under-10-metre Fishing Fleet...... 1031 Farming Industry...... 1030 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Thursday 4 November 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 37WS NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 41WS Local Growth White Paper (Correction)...... 37WS Billy Wright Inquiry...... 41WS Equality Commission for Northern Ireland ...... 41WS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 37WS Independent Monitoring Commission Report ...... 42WS Planning Circulars (HMOs) ...... 37WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 38WS Justice and Home Affairs (Pre-Council Statement)...... 38WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 4 November 2010

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 904W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Departmental Redundancy ...... 904W continued Human Trafficking: Prosecutions...... 905W Local Government Executive ...... 940W Local Government: Redundancy ...... 940W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 896W Members: Correspondence ...... 940W Broadband: Schools...... 896W Opencast Mining: Planning Permission ...... 940W Chinese Paper Lanterns ...... 896W Overseas Visits: Public Expenditure ...... 941W Debt Management: Licensing ...... 896W Parish Councils: Disclosure of Information...... 941W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 897W Planning Permission ...... 941W EU Grants and Loans...... 897W Private Rented Housing ...... 941W Fossil Fuels: Export Credit Guarantees ...... 898W Social Rented Housing...... 942W Green Investment Bank ...... 898W Supporting People Programme ...... 943W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 899W Supporting People Programme: Brighton ...... 943W Local Enterprise Partnerships: Finance ...... 900W Newton Scholarship Programme ...... 900W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 909W Radio Frequencies ...... 901W BBC: Commonwealth Games 2014 ...... 909W Research Councils...... 901W British Film Institute...... 909W Small Businesses: Kent...... 901W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 910W Students: Kent ...... 902W Film: Finance...... 910W University Enterprise Capital Fund ...... 902W Gambling...... 910W Horse Racing: Betting...... 911W CABINET OFFICE...... 903W Music...... 911W Central Office of Information: Redundancy ...... 903W Radio: Digital Broadcasting...... 911W S4C: Wales...... 912W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT . 937W UK Film Council: Portland ...... 912W Audit Commission: Public Appointments ...... 937W Council Housing: Finance ...... 938W DEFENCE...... 944W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 938W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 944W EU Grants and Loans...... 938W Air Force: Deployment ...... 944W Fire Services: Industrial Disputes...... 938W Aircraft Carriers ...... 945W Fire Services: West Midlands ...... 939W Armed Forces: Deployment ...... 945W Housing Benefit: Homelessness...... 939W Armed Forces: Disability Living Allowance...... 946W Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE—continued FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 913W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 946W Anti-Semitism...... 913W Armed Forces: Redundancy...... 946W Colombia ...... 913W Army: Reorganisation...... 947W Colombia: Homicide...... 913W Astute Class Submarines...... 947W Colombia: Terrorism...... 914W Ballistic Missile Defence ...... 948W Colombia: Visits Abroad ...... 914W Challenger Tanks ...... 948W Human Trafficking ...... 915W Clyde Naval Base ...... 948W Ilois: Resettlement...... 915W Defence: Finance ...... 948W Palestinians: Politics and Government ...... 915W Departmental Contracts ...... 949W Turkmenistan: EU External Relations ...... 916W Departmental Manpower...... 950W Uganda: Politics and Government ...... 916W Departmental Redundancy ...... 950W UN Women...... 916W European Fighter Aircraft ...... 951W Venezuela: Foreign Relations ...... 917W Fleet Air Arm ...... 952W West Papua: Human Rights ...... 917W Future Large Aircraft ...... 952W Harrier Aircraft ...... 952W HEALTH...... 881W Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft...... 953W Cancer: Health Services ...... 881W Military Aircraft: Procurement ...... 953W Care Homes: Standards ...... 881W Military Aircraft: Sonar...... 954W Community Hospitals...... 882W Navy ...... 954W Dental Services ...... 882W Navy: Military Bases...... 955W Departmental Visits Abroad ...... 882W Nimrod Aircraft...... 955W Drugs: Rehabilitation...... 883W Nuclear Missile Sharing...... 944W Health Services ...... 884W Nuclear Submarines: Accidents ...... 956W Meat Hygiene Service...... 884W RAF Kinloss: Rescue Services ...... 956W Medicine: Education...... 885W RAF Menwith Hill ...... 956W Soft Drinks ...... 885W Rosyth Dockyard: Radiation Exposure...... 957W Streptococcus: Health Services...... 885W Royal Fleet Auxiliary: Manpower ...... 957W Sea King Helicopters ...... 957W Submarines: Finance...... 957W HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 876W Territorial Army: Finance...... 958W Animal Experiments: Primates...... 876W Trident ...... 958W Entry Clearances...... 877W Warships ...... 960W EU Blue Card: Engineers...... 877W Foreign Nationals: Prisoners...... 877W Human Trafficking ...... 878W EDUCATION...... 920W Identity Cards ...... 878W Academies: Faith Schools ...... 920W Immigration Controls: Foreign Workers ...... 878W Building Schools for the Future Programme: Immigration: Detainees...... 879W Bolton...... 920W Immigration: Pakistan ...... 879W Children, Schools and Families Act 2010...... 920W Immigration: Research...... 879W Departmental Internet ...... 921W Members: Correspondence ...... 879W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 922W Slavery ...... 880W Departmental Visits Abroad ...... 922W Vetting ...... 880W Education: Finance...... 923W Visas: Pakistan...... 880W Free Schools...... 923W Languages: Education...... 923W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 889W Mental Illness ...... 924W Parliamentary Education Service ...... 889W Primary Education: Finance ...... 924W Schools: Wolverhampton ...... 924W Special Educational Needs...... 925W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 918W Teachers: Standards ...... 926W Departmental Redundancy ...... 918W Departmental Secondment ...... 919W Developing Countries: Politics and Government.... 919W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 890W UN Women’s Agency: Finance ...... 919W Armed Forces: Accommodation ...... 890W Civil Nuclear Constabulary...... 890W Climate Change: Carbon Emissions...... 891W JUSTICE...... 885W Liquid Petroleum Gas...... 891W Courts: Warrington...... 885W Nuclear Fuels: Transport ...... 892W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 886W Public Expenditure...... 892W Family Courts: Offenders...... 886W Wind and Nuclear Power ...... 893W Legal Services Commission: Social Workers ...... 886W Proceeds of Crime...... 887W Sentencing...... 888W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 893W Agriculture: Competitiveness ...... 893W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 904W Agriculture: Subsidies ...... 893W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 904W Common Agricultural Policy ...... 894W Common Fisheries Policy ...... 894W SCOTLAND...... 902W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 894W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 902W Flood Control: Finance ...... 894W Departmental Reviews ...... 903W Forests: Finance...... 895W Departmental Travel ...... 903W Landfill ...... 895W Welfare State: Reform ...... 903W Col. No. Col. No. TRANSPORT ...... 895W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 926W Aviation: China...... 895W Child Benefit...... 926W Thameslink: Government Assistance ...... 896W Council Tax Benefits...... 927W Council Tax: Greater London...... 927W TREASURY ...... 906W Disability Living Allowance...... 928W Community Investment Tax Relief...... 906W Disability Living Allowance: Medical Crown Lands and Estates: Wind Power ...... 906W Examinations...... 929W Excise Duties: Fuels ...... 906W Employment: Questionnaires ...... 929W Personal Income ...... 906W Housing Benefit ...... 929W Public Expenditure...... 907W Housing Benefit: Employment ...... 931W Social Security Benefits: Fraud ...... 908W Housing Benefit: Jobseeker’s Allowance...... 931W Tax Rates and Bands: South East ...... 908W Housing Benefit: Oxfordshire...... 932W Working Tax Credit ...... 909W Housing Benefit: Private Rented Housing...... 932W Mortgages: Government Assistance...... 932W WALES...... 904W Pension Credit...... 933W Unemployment ...... 904W Pensions...... 933W Pensions: Females ...... 935W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES ...... 875W Remploy...... 935W Departmental Official Hospitality ...... 875W Sky Lanterns: Safety ...... 936W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 875W Social Security Benefits: Fraud ...... 936W Departmental Redundancy ...... 875W Work Capability Assessment: Appeals ...... 937W Departmental Travel ...... 875W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Thursday 4 November 2010

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 1025] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

Business of the House [Col. 1045] Statement—(Sir George Young)

Strategic Defence and Security Review [Col. 1060] General debate

Simon Robertson [Col. 1147] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Work and Pensions (CSR) [Col. 335WH] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 37WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 875W] [see index inside back page]