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UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 543-ii HOUSE OF COMMONS ORAL EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE SCOTTISH AFFAIRS COMMITTEE BLACKLISTING IN EMPLOYMENT WEDNESDAY 17 JULY 2013 STEPHEN RATCLIFFE Evidence heard in Public Questions 2689 - 2949 USE OF THE TRANSCRIPT 1. This is an uncorrected transcript of evidence taken in public and reported to the House. The transcript has been placed on the internet on the authority of the Committee, and copies have been made available by the Vote Office for the use of Members and others. 2. Any public use of, or reference to, the contents should make clear that neither witnesses nor Members have had the opportunity to correct the record. The transcript is not yet an approved formal record of these proceedings. 3. Members who receive this for the purpose of correcting questions addressed by them to witnesses are asked to send corrections to the Committee Assistant. 4. Prospective witnesses may receive this in preparation for any written or oral evidence they may in due course give to the Committee. 1 Oral Evidence Taken before the Scottish Affairs Committee on Wednesday 17 July 2013 Members present: Mr Ian Davidson (Chair) Jim McGovern Graeme Morrice Pamela Nash Sir James Paice Simon Reevell Mr Alan Reid Lindsay Roy ________________ Examination of Witness Witness: Stephen Ratcliffe, Director, UK Contractors Group, gave sworn evidence. Q2689 Chair: Mr Ratcliffe, I welcome you to this meeting of the Scottish Affairs Committee. As you are aware, we are investigating blacklisting in the construction industry. Would you take the oath, first of all? Stephen Ratcliffe: Yes, indeed. (Stephen Ratcliffe affirmed) Q2690 Chair: Thank you very much. I realised this just now. I understand that you want to read out a statement. Stephen Ratcliffe: It is very short, if I may. Q2691 Chair: Would you like to do that first then? Stephen Ratcliffe: Do you want me to introduce myself first? Q2692 Chair: Yes, fine. I was going to let you read out the statement and then I will go through things. Stephen Ratcliffe: Let me do the statement first. Since 2009, the UK Contractors Group has represented some 30 of the largest contractors in the UK construction industry, along with some of their supply chain associations. I should tell you that earlier this year we also launched a Scottish Contractors Group, a sister organisation, representing 12 of the largest construction businesses in Scotland. Neither UKCG nor its predecessor organisations played any part in the role of the Consulting Association. The majority of our members also played no part in the Consulting Association, but of course some of our members did. This activity has damaged the reputation of the entire UK construction sector. Those companies involved in the activities of the Consulting Association accept that those activities were morally wrong and have apologised. Blacklisting in employment is illegal—it is as simple as that—and this is recognised now by the industry. The issue has unfortunately overshadowed the important co-operative relationships between the unions and 2 the employers in the sector. For example, my own body is a party to the CIJC working rule agreement operated by the Construction Industry Joint Council bringing in over 500,000 workers within a structure of fair minimum pay rates. We have also worked closely with the unions together in a revolution on changing the culture of health and safety in the industry, leading to a 50% reduction in fatal accidents over the past decade. We applaud the attention to safety issues rather than punishing people for it. UKCG is about creating a positive future for the industry that is vital to economic growth and employment. I look forward to answering your questions. Q2693 Chair: Thank you. We did not have a copy of your statement until just now, so our staff will copy and circulate it. I would draw to the members’ attention that there were some slight changes as you spoke and went through it. Could you introduce yourself and tell us about the organisation you represent? Please also tell us about your previous involvement with the industry, for background. Stephen Ratcliffe: Yes, of course. I am Stephen Ratcliffe. I have run the UK Contractors Group since it was founded in 2009. We have a fairly limited brief for our members. I should say that we are not the only construction trade association in the country. For example, many of our members are also members of an organisation called the Scottish Building Employers’ Federation. There is also an organisation called the Civil Engineering Contractors Association, which also operates heavily in Scotland. Our remit is twofold. First, it is to emphasise the importance of construction to the UK economy, to try and press the case for infrastructure investment and make sure that that has a good impact on growth. Probably of more relevance to this Committee is the fact that we also do a lot of work in terms of trying to promote good practice in the industry. For example, we have a health and safety charter. We have been working collectively with our members to try and improve health and safety performance and to make common messages to our supply chain. Many of the companies are using similar companies in their supply chain. For example, if all the major players are saying on site induction, “We are all going to do this,” that is helpful for when a supply chain partner and their workers come on site. We also do a lot of work in the area of environmental performance. More recently we have been looking at the impact of IT in the construction industry, particularly in relation to building information modelling. We are also doing a lot of work on diversity. This is an industry that, frankly, is unrepresentative of the population at large. The number of women and ethnic minorities who work in the industry is rather small compared with the rest of the economy. We have been working with our members to see whether we can change that and, indeed, whether we can promote more apprenticeships in construction at a time when the construction economy has reduced by about 20% in the past two years. In terms of my previous relationship, before I was at the UKCG, I ran a larger construction trade association called the Construction Confederation. That went into insolvency after I left, in 1998, if memory serves me correct. That was a representative body for a much wider range of companies. As well as some of the major players being in the organisation, we also had about 5,000 SME players in that organisation. Q2694 Chair: Before that, you were a senior civil servant with the DTI. Stephen Ratcliffe: I would not describe myself as senior. I was a grade 7 in the DTI— but many years ago. Q2695 Chair: Senior’ish. Stephen Ratcliffe: Senior’ish; I am happy to accept that. 3 Q2696 Chair: A senior’ish civil servant. You were beside one of the Cabinet Ministers, weren’t you? Stephen Ratcliffe: I was a career civil servant. I certainly was not in any way political. I started my life as an executive officer in the Department of Trade and Industry when I left school in 1973. I had a series of jobs. I was First Secretary Commercial in the Embassy in Vienna for four years. I did work for David Young when he was Secretary of State for Employment, Minister without Portfolio and also Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, but that was 30 years ago. Q2697 Chair: That is certainly fairly important’ish. You were chief executive of the Construction Confederation. Was that at a time when Colin McAlpine was the chair? Stephen Ratcliffe: Colin McAlpine never held any office in the Construction Confederation. His father, Malcolm McAlpine, who is sadly now no longer with us, was the treasurer of the Construction Confederation for a couple of years. Colin McAlpine was chair of the employers’ side of the Construction Industry Joint Council. That is the body that negotiates pay and conditions with the trades unions. He was certainly chair of that. Forgive me, I can’t remember the exact dates, but he was certainly chair of it when I first became chief executive of the Construction Confederation, which would have been in 2000. He left shortly thereafter and the role was taken on by somebody else. Q2698 Chair: I was just trying to clarify whether or not he was chair of that at the same time he was chair of the Consulting Association. Stephen Ratcliffe: I don’t know if it was at the same time, but he was certainly chair. I can let you have the dates; I just don’t have them in my head at the moment. Q2699 Chair: When were you first aware of blacklisting? Stephen Ratcliffe: I think, like everybody else, when I started to read the press reports after the Information Commissioner had raided the offices of the Consulting Association. Q2700 Chair: So, on oath, you are telling us that, having been involved in the industry for such a long time, the first you knew of it was when you read it in the papers. Stephen Ratcliffe: Yes. Q2701 Chair: Can you understand why I find that difficult to believe? Stephen Ratcliffe: But so many other people were in exactly the same situation. Even in some of the companies that were involved many people just simply weren’t aware of it. It was a secretive activity. It was certainly never discussed in any shape or form in any forums in the Construction Confederation that I was ever involved in.

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