Singing For Freedom: An Interview with Hollis Watkins

Interviewer: Michaela James-Thrower

Instructor: Amanda Freeman

Interviewee: Hollis Watkins

February 11, 2018

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Table of Contents

Release Forms ...... 3

Statement of Purpose ...... 5

Biography ...... 6

Historical Contextualization Paper ...... 8

Interview Transcription ...... 17

Interview Analysis ...... 52

Bibliography ...... 58

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Statement of Purpose

When I was looking for a topic for this project, there were a million different things running through my mind. I knew only one thing. That it needed to be about something that I loved. I’ve always seen music as something that I needed. The Civil Rights Movement was a complicated time for black people. There were all kinds of moments and demonstrations that happened throughout the movement that people don’t know about. There were all kinds of influences throughout the movement as well. I soon realized that I needed to do this project on music in the Civil Rights Movement, seeing as it is one of the least noticed contributors. Even though I caused my parents headache throughout this project with my mix of indecisiveness and perfectionism, I know that this is something that I am glad and proud to have done.

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Biography

Hollis Watkins was born on July 29, 1941 in Lincoln County, Mississippi. He is the youngest of twelve children. His parents were sharecroppers named John and Lena Watkins. He attended

Lincoln County Training School in Lincoln County. He graduated high school in 1960. He started Tougaloo College, but never graduated. He had his first job at the age of four as the water boy for his family. After finishing high school, Mr. Watkins was invited to a National association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) meeting by Medgar Evers. While going to college, Mr. Watkins had become involved with the Civil Rights Movement. Mr. Watkins became the first Mississippi student to become involved in the Mississippi Voting Rights Project of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (SNCC) in 1961. Mr. Watkins met Bob

Moses and joined SNCC. He then moved all over Mississippi trying to increase voter registration in places such as Hattiesburg, Greenwood and many others. His first sit-in was to draw attention to black education. He was supposed to sit-in at the library but when he arrived it was closed.

Mr. Watkins, determined to go to prison that night, walked to Woolworth Department store and performed a sit-in there at the lunch counter to protest the Jim Crow Laws. He was arrested for the first time for 34 days. In 1989, Mr. Watkins established Southern Echo, Inc., which is a non- profit organization that provides training and technical assistance to individuals, groups, and James-Thrower 7 organizations in Mississippi and throughout the South. Mr. Watkins continues to spread hope, love, and song throughout his community.

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Let Freedom Sing

Let music be the answer to all of our problems as it was and has always been. America’s history has been written on sheet music. From the Declaration of Independence in 1776 to

Trump’s election in 2016, music has played an important role in decision-making. Music has an influence on most people throughout their day. A person’s mood can be easily changed while listening to a song. Those changes depend on many things like lyrics, chords, tone, and tempo.

All of these have the power to affect someone in some way. There are songs that have moved people to hatred, and there are songs that have moved people to love. The Civil Rights

Movement has no official start date or end date. Some may argue that the movement began in

1948 when Former President Truman issued an Executive order to end segregation in the armed forces. Some may argue that the movement ended in 1968 when Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated. The beginning and the end of the Civil Rights Movement depends on perspective.

Although the dates may be up to interpretation, music’s vital role is not. To understand music’s impact on the civil rights movement one must examine the importance of music in black culture, popular songs of the time, and the meaning of the movement as well as gain first-hand perspective from someone who was there.

Music played a complicated role in the lives of slaves. Slaves were stripped from their homes, the only luggage they carried being their music. During the Slave Trade, beginning in the

15th century and ending in the 19th century, Africans were taken from their homes and transported on ships meant to hold about 250 to 400 slaves. Those ships were often overpacked and held at least 600 slaves instead. On the ships, the slaves were allowed little space and barely any time was allotted for community. They were “allowed to unite while on deck in African

Melodies which they always enhance by extemporaneous tom-tom on the bottom of a tub or tin James-Thrower 9 kettle.”1 Slaves traveled with their music. Keeping their united front through the songs they sang together. Slave owners felt that slaves were happier when they sang and played music which made them less rebellious.2 Slaves owners began to enjoy the music they heard from their slaves and shared the music with family. “Generations of white southern children, raised by black women, remembered being sung to sleep with negro spirituals, and associated them with warmth and security.”3 White children grew up with Black music and found it comforting. Which may have led to the belief that black people were comforting in effect. Slaves started to perform to entertain guests at their plantation master’s house.

The complications between the slave master and African culture did not stop at slave melodies. Some sections in African culture were banned, such as the beating of drums.4 Slaves weren’t allowed to beat drums because, in African culture, the beating of drums is used as a form of communication. Slave owners were scared slaves would communicate hidden plans through their rhythms, but slaves found other ways to communicate with each other. “Despite their poor treatment, the land and the culture had become part of them.”5 Slaves had been taken away from their homes too long to return. Africa was no longer home, and slaves had to endure the new environment they were placed in. Slaves began to adapt to the white people around them. Maya

Angelou says that it’s easy for black people to be portrayed as whites “because we’ve had centuries of having to study their faces. Understanding that a smile could mean “you get flogged today”. Or, a frown could mean “I’m selling you off to Mississippi?”6 Slaves had been told to

1 Black Music In America by James Haskins ,page 3 2 Black Music In America by Haskins, page 3 3 Black Music In America by Haskins, page 9 4 Black Music In America by Haskins, page 9 5 Black Music In America by Haskins, page 2 6 Maya Angelou: And Still I Rise, directed by Bob Hercules and Rita Coburn Whack, 2016. James-Thrower 10 forget their culture and study their new environment, which they did. Slaves had to rebuild their culture and connection which had been maintained musically and spiritually. Slaves found their connection through religion. Slave pastors began to expect signals of agreement from the congregation. “Silence in a slave church meant that he was falling short in his delivery of God’s message.”7 It was understood that churches needed to be a space for slaves to speak in order to maintain obedience. “Slave preachers disguised messages of liberation in their sermons.”8

Sermons were disguised as words of encouragement to preserve on their journey to freedom.

Preachers might say “ninety-nine and a half won’t do.”9 Which to slave owners might mean simply to work harder but slaves knew they were working towards something much greater.

Through the messages and music shared in slave churches, a community was formed amongst slaves.

Spirituals and gospel sustained value in the hearts of African American churches. “The exhortatory hymns that had resonated through black churches for decades were translated into anthems of defiance.”10 Gospel had become the main unifier of Black people. People had faith in

God. Leaders of the movement saw that as an opportunity to help people put faith in each other and equality. Hollis Watkins thought “If music could do it for the people in the church then music could do it for the people who were not in the church.” Centuries later while classical music became common, African Americans like Maya Angelou sang and spread gospel, shocking people all over the world. This made churches a target for people who were against the

Civil Rights Movement. Ed King, a member of the Mississippi Democratic Freedom Party

7 Say It Loud: The story of rap music by K. Maurice Jones, page 22 8 Jones, page 23 9 Jones, page 23 10 The Early Civil Rights Movement, Set To Music by Ben Brantley James-Thrower 11

(MDFP), says “the Klan bombed churches because they were a symbol of faith and strength.”11

Black people learned to overcome setbacks through song and that they were stronger together.

Segregation sprouted after the Civil War which began in 1861 with the battle of Fort

Sumter. The war did not end until 1865 when Former President Andrew Johnson proclaimed an end to the war. During the Civil War, Former President Abraham Lincoln introduced and put into effect the Emancipation Proclamation (1863). The Proclamation not only freed the slaves within the Confederacy but also gave African Americans military opportunities. African

Americans were now allowed to join the armed forces. There were many things African

Americans still could not do. According to the Jim Crow laws, African Americans were “kept from voting and were forced to attend separate schools, use separate stores and restaurant, and to use separate sections on public transit.”12 In 1909, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) was founded in response to the growing mistreatment that colored people experienced. Sparking a wave of movements, letting society know that the black community would not be ignored.

On March 2, 1955, in Montgomery, Alabama, Claudette Colvin, a fifteen-year old colored woman, refused to give her seat to a white woman on a crowded segregated bus protesting her rights. Soon after, on December 1, 1955, in Montgomery, Alabama, Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat on the bus and has her name written in every history book. People rallied to support her, which resulted in the Montgomery bus Boycott. There were pieces published in the paper asking all black people “don’t ride the buses to work, to town, to school or anywhere on Monday.”13 One of the first moments of the movement.

11 “Church,” Mississippi Civil Rights Museum: Jackson, Mississippi, 2018. 12 Civil rights: the African American Struggle for Equality by Robert Penn Warren, page 10 13 Negro Groups Ready Boycott Of City lines by Joe Azbell James-Thrower 12

In the Brown vs the Board of Education case, which began in 1952 and ended in 1954, the Supreme Court decided that segregated schools were unconstitutional. The Supreme Court’s decision didn’t affect the decision of the people. White people were still reluctant to allow their children to go to school with black children. In 1957, the first group of African-American students, “the Little Rock Nine”, tried to attend classes at Central High School and were only met with brutality. They all persisted until they received the education they deserved.

In 1960, four African American students from North Carolina Agricultural and Technical

College staged the first sit-in. Those four students sat down at the counter of a store, where

African Americans were not allowed, and sat protesting their rights as citizens.

In May 1961, a mixed group of black and white citizens gathered together to try to put an end to segregation on buses. They called themselves the “Freedom Riders.” The Birmingham

News reports the story in a negative tone, claiming “mob terror hits city on mother’s day.”14 The peaceful protest was interpreted as dramatic. “This was the first of two busloads of CORE

(Congress of Racial Equality) members. The second vehicle had been halted and burned a few hours earlier near Anniston.”15 The riders were attacked and their bus destroyed in Anniston, AL,

Birmingham, AL, and Montgomery, AL. Due to these attacks, the federal government sent federal marshals to protect them.

Music was vital to each of these events. “At marches, sit-ins, on the Freedom Rides, and everywhere that African Americans were bonding together to fight for their rights”16 there was song. Black people used their talent as a platform for protest. African Americans understood that violence was one way to protest, but it was not the only option. Songs like “Keep On Pushing”

14 Integrationist Group Continuing Trip After Brutal Beatings Here by The New York Times 15 The New York Times 16 Warren, page 91 James-Thrower 13 by The Impressions, “Say It Loud (I’m Black and I’m Proud)” by James Brown, and “Stand” by

Sly & the Family Stone kept protestors from feeling discouraged. Music and other forms of art became non-violent platforms used to express the emotions of an oppressed community.

Black people raised their voices in song against inequality and racism. Former President

Barack Obama describes the Civil Rights Movement as “a movement with a soundtrack.”17 This soundtrack provided strength in return for inspiration. “It’s easy to sing when you’re happy, It’s hard to sing when times are rough.”18 Music was a form of rebellion. Music is designed to advertise that there was strength within the movement and its people. Artists showed their resilience through their creations. “But times like that are precisely when the power of song is most potent.”19 In places where music was more prominent, people recruiting for the movement had a larger impact. Hollis Watkins says “in the areas where there was a lot more singing, you had a greater impact and more participation.” Music moved people everywhere and made them feel that they were making a difference. Chude Allen says “the singing was the way we became one. Viscerally, spiritually, you felt part of this thing larger than you.”20 Music made people feel empowered. People felt as if they were making an impact when they sung. Song has the power to inspire the mind to do extraordinary things.

Blacks learned they could express themselves through other art forms including theater.

Blacks drew attention to reality through their art. They portrayed themselves, along with white people and showed the dynamic between the two. Maya Angelou was a powerful activist in the movement. She was a part of a theatre company called “The Theatre of the Absurd”21, which

17 A Celebration of Music From the Civil Rights Movement 18 A Celebration of Music From the Civil Rights Movement 19 A Celebration of Music From the Civil Rights Movement 20 Mississippi Civil Rights Museum 21 Hercules, Whack James-Thrower 14 originated from the notion that racism is also absurd. The theatre put on many productions that

“raised the consciousness of the race”22. One of the most popular productions was called Le

Negras: The Blacks. In an effort to ensure the strong message was acknowledged, the ushers were instructed to lock the doors once the play began. The audience would not be allowed to exit the theater no matter how they were affected by the images depicted on stage. In the play, society was segregated by six black actors, and six other black actors wearing white masks representing white people. The six black actors representing whites sat on a ramp six feet in the air to symbolize their higher level in society. Each of the six “white” actors would come down off the ramp to “offer their objections to blacks even existing.”23 Each time one of the “white” actors would come down, they were killed by the blacks. As the “whites” descended, the blacks ascended and soon enough the blacks had come into power. People reacted horribly to the play.

Some, blacks and whites, jumped out of their seats and tried to run. There were a few injuries due to some reactions to the play. The play triggered one woman to fainted and gave a man a heart attack. The theater had to force the idea that racism is absurd onto their audience because no one understood the influence racism had.

Blacks brought awareness of topics like segregation while still having to suffer through isolation themselves. After a performance, even though blacks might’ve been cheered for, they were ultimately still black. Don Martin says “They had to perform and go back to their room.”24

Blacks artists might’ve been able to make a larger impact if they were allowed to spread their message farther. Even the tiniest moment still made an impact on the movement in some way, as long as a story was being told. Overwhelming talent is not what carried the movement. Speaking

22 Hercules, Whack 23 Hercules, Whack 24 Hercules, Whack James-Thrower 15 up and being heard shaped changed. Don Martin said when speaking of Maya Angelou, “the voice was no good voice but she knew how to use it.”25 Maya Angelou knew that she wasn’t the most amazing person on the planet, but she knew that her words carried weight and her music could too. She says “songs written not by a free and easy people, not by a leisure class, songs written from the heart, written with their blood written with the whips and the lashes on their back. When I sang these songs the people couldn’t stop screaming.”26 What black people lacked in money, education, or land, they made up for in talent.

During Former President Barack Obama’s first term, there was a program held at the

White House for the Civil Rights Movement. During the program, Obama says “It (the civil rights movement) was sharpened by protest songs about wrongs that needed righting.”27 Music pointed focus on the goal of the Civil Rights Movement. “Let the music feed our spirit, give us hope and carry us forward as one people and as one nation.”28 Music nourished the souls of protesters. When people thought of giving up, they found their hope in song. Music holds the same power throughout history. Rap emerged during the 1980s and the 1990s. “Rap is the voice of a population that has been ignored by mainstream leaders and institutions. It is culture.”29

Music is used to define happiness and community. Rap is a form of expression from an ignored community just as gospel was during the movement. “In creating rap music, rappers are creating a sound that defines their generation.”30 Music is used to help people discover their identities.

“Hip-hop got its start in black America, but now more than 70 percent of hip-hop albums are

25 Hercules, Whack 26 Hercules, Whack 27 A Celebration of Music From the Civil Rights Movement 28 A Celebration of Music From the Civil Rights Movement 29 Jones, page 17 30 One Nation Under a Groove: Rap Music and its Roots by James Haskins, page 11 James-Thrower 16 purchased by whites. In fact, a whole generation of kids- black, white, Latino, Asian- has grown up immersed in hip-hop.”31 Even though rap originated amongst black people, all cultures came together through their similar opinions on rap music. “Rap represents the pulse-thoughts, values, and experiences- of youth worldwide.”32 Most young people cannot identify themselves with the

Civil Rights Movement. Rap music is the way in which those young people express their feeling of oppression. “Rap is the voice of today’s youth.”33 Hip-hop had a large impact on all races and cultures. It might have been created by black people but it was meant for everyone.

Music has a major impact on all things. Music can impact a person’s mood just as easily as you can recognize your name. Hearing a song in the morning on the radio can determine your entire course of the day. Musicians could spread information through their lyrics. Listeners could determine their opinions through song. In the words of Maya Angelou, “when I decided to speak,

I had a lot to speak.”34 Music is its own language, spoken all over the world, that can be used to illustrate love, pain, loss, power, freedom or any other emotion. I believe that music has a great power to do anything. It is easy to feel something while hearing a song that you may not feel or understand while watching a film or talking to someone. Music can animate new emotions or a new point of view or bring out feelings you never knew you had. Music can be a safe space in which people find comfort or it can be a strict figure that shows tough love. Long past the Civil

Rights Movement, Music still is a tool used to bring people together. Music helped people realize that “this was a struggle that belonged to all of us.”35

31 One Nation Under a Groove: Rap Music and its Roots by Haskins, page 11 32 Jones, page 17 33 One Nation Under a Groove: Rap Music and its Roots by Haskins, page 12 34 Hercules, Whack 35 Mississippi Civil Rights Museum James-Thrower 17

Interview Transcription

Interviewee/Narrator: Hollis Watkins

Interviewer: Michaela James-Thrower

Location: Mr. Watkins Office, Jackson, Mississippi

Date: January 5, 2019

[Michaela James-Thrower]: This is Michaela James-Thrower and I am interviewing Mr. Hollis

Watkins on the topic of music in the civil rights movement as part of the American Century Oral

History Project. The interview took place on January 5, 2018 (2019) at 10:50 am located in

Jackson, Mississippi. This interview was recorded using an iPhone. So, the first question is

When and where were you born?

[Hollis Watkins]: I was born July 29th, 1941. I grew up, I was born and grew up in Lincoln

County. Brookhaven is the County seat for Lincoln County. And I was associated more so with

Bogue Chitto which is right down the road from Brookhaven. And the school was Lincoln

County Training School.

[MJT]: Oh.

[HW]: So that’s where I went to school, that’s where I stayed until I got involved in the civil rights movement.

[MJT]: Ok I’m so what was it like growing up in Mississippi in 1941? James-Thrower 18

[HW]: Growing up in Mississippi in the area it was like (pause) work, work, work. If you are going to be successful and I did a lot of work. I (pause) got my first job when I was somewhere between 4 and 5 years old.

[MJT]: Wow.

[HW]: And my first job was bringing water back and forth for my parents and older brothers and sisters that was working in the field. So most of the work that most people did at that time was agricultural work and I fell right in line. You know I was the water boy, you know, beginning at the age of 4.

[MJT]: Wow. So, if you (pause) had to describe Mississippi at that time what would you say

[HW]: It’s hard to describe Mississippi and I’ll make an attempt at doing some of that I say that because when you say Mississippi you’re talking about the whole of Mississippi. And In all in most all different areas of Mississippi the atmosphere, the relationship and all of that was different than it was in other areas. (phone rings) So - excuse me my phone here - it was different in different areas. The area that I was in, the white people you know they didn’t have real large farms like they had in the Delta. In the Delta, you had what they called those large plantations. In the area of Mississippi where I grew up, a large plantation owner would have anywhere from 300 acres to somewhere 5 or 600 acres. And the people in the Delta, white peoples in the Delta, that had a farm of 3-500 acres would in many cases be considered a garden. James-Thrower 19

[MJT]: Wow

[HW]: [4:41] Because of the large plantations. So that’s where my father and the rest of his family lived as a sharecropper working with different farmers until my father bought his own land. And once he bought his own land he took my older brothers and they took trees off of the land and carried the trees to the lumber mill and had them converted into lumber. Brought the lumbar back home and that’s where he built our house, that we lived in after leaving the farm from the sharecroppers. After building the house, the next major job had to do with he taking all of his children to dig up the stumps. The stumps that was left from where the trees had been cut and after digging up the stumps, then you had clear land where we began to do farming for ourselves on our own land, so it was a work atmosphere. Racism was alive and well, you know, in that part of the state as well as in other parts of the state. I was told as a young man, that if I was walking down the street and saw a white man coming down the street, it was my responsibility to step off to the side of the sidewalk, bow my head until the white man passed by and once he passed by then you got back on the sidewalk and proceeded to go to where it was that you (pause) were initially on your way to. If it was a white Woman, you definitely had to do that. Because if you didn’t do that with the white woman you might lose your life. And that was because if you didn’t drop your head, step off to the side, you might accidentally look at her in her face or, as they would say, in her eyes and if you did that she’d have you killed for eyeball raping a white woman.

[MJT]: Wow. James-Thrower 20

[HW]: That’s just how bad the condition was, you know, in that area and from my understanding the same kind of thing in other areas of the state but I can bear witness that that’s what we were told. Make sure that you step off the sidewalk and drop your head and keep your head down until they passed on by and that would prolong your life.

[MJT]: Wow, so, would you say that there was a fear of white people throughout like in your community?

[HW]: Well I wouldn’t necessarily say there was a fear of white people per say it had to do with basically how you saw the white people in the relationship that you had at that time you could hear white people telling black people make sure you stay in your place and that was one of the things that the black community did was they the people in the community shared that with their own family. Make sure you don’t get out of place make sure you don’t get out of place. Not stepping off the sidewalk and bowing your head was considered out of place as it opened the door for white people to do very bad and negative things to black people, including taking their lives

[MJT]: [9:56] Wow, so, what would you say that your earliest memory of racism was?

[HW]: [10:04] My earliest memory of experiencing it, I guess and being a part of it-I must say my daddy wherever possible didn’t facilitate and tried to make sure it was not facilitated where we spent much the children spent much time with and around white people- my first major James-Thrower 21 experience that I had with white people that showed racism, I went into town one day with my father. My mother had said to my father to make sure we bought some sugar because sugar was needed, and she didn’t have anymore. So, when we got into, we went into the store and we picked a few little items that my mother needed for us to get and there was one item we did not get. And since we didn’t get that item, I considered or thought that the people in the store didn’t have it. But I found out they had it, but it was a situation where there was. A shortage of sugar that year and because there being a shortage of sugar, the white people were not selling sugar to black folks. And I didn’t understand that and didn't know what that was about because when we came out of the store my father stopped and was talking with black men. You know, on the side of the street and I’m standing there looking waiting and watching, and I was somewhere between four and five, and I saw white people coming out of the store and they had sugar me assuming that they didn’t have it when I saw that I began to say to my father come on I said, Papa, I call him Papa, I said “come on they got some sugar now I see the white folks coming out so come on we need to go in and get it before the white folks get it all”. You know so he tried to tell me “just be cool, be quiet everything is gonna work out” and I said “no, come on right now” (laughs) I said “my momma need that sugar”, you know, and I don’t know whether she needed the sugar as bad as I needed her to have that sugar to make some of those good cakes. (laughs) So after being persistent then he told me he said come on let’s go and then he took me away. That was, I guess, my very first real experience you know with the white folks and racism that existed.

[MJT]: Well, so, we kind of already talked about this a little bit but can you tell me about your family?

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[HW]: A little bit more about my family?

[MJT]: Mmhmm

[HW]: Well, number one it was a large family. Because I am the youngest of 12. And you could say that our family was really a working family. Wherever possible my father found extra work to make money and it was through that process that he was able to save enough money to buy, you know, land. You know that first piece of land that my father bought you know was 100 acres and once we got it, we moved off of the white man’s place. I (pause) when I first started (pause) to (pause) when I first started and got involved with the civil rights movement [15:07] (pause) my family made less than $1,000 per year when I first started schooling. I never considered us, and we never considered ourselves to be poor. And the major reason I never considered us to be poor is because once every week my father would have my youngest brother and myself, my youngest brother is five years older than me, he would have us to box food up and take it to all of the elderly women, and there were women that had children and didn’t have husbands, once every week. Me and my brother, Joe Lewis, delivered food that came from the farm that we had produced so that others would not go hungry and have food to eat. Going back to the thing I was talking about with my daddy not being able to get that sugar. That experience led to what I perceive to be a very good and positive situation for black people in that whole area. I say that because my father decided to give his hand at (pause) making molasses cause people were planting cane, sugar cane. So, my daddy, as I say, perfected the art of making molasses. Because he perfected it to the point where when you brought your cane to the mill, you and my daddy would speculate or guess about how many gallons of molasses it would make. And they were James-Thrower 23 pretty good at it, you know, and came real close to being accurate. Most of the time, they never

(pause) came up more than a gallon off. They said this cane of yours should make about 12 gallons and very seldom did it vary from making 12 gallons. You might make 11, you know, you might make 13. So, it was always that way. So, when people came and brought their cane to the mill they would say “well how many gallons we gonna have today from this?” And he’d tell him.

He’d say “Ok you got fifteen. You should be able to have 15 gallons.” They said “Well we got

15 gallons and what I want you to do is give me 10 gallons of molasses and 5 gallons of sugar.

He had perfected the molasses making to the point where within 5 days, he could make it where it turned to sugar.

[MJT]: Wow.

[HW]: And that was a tremendous benefit for the black people in that immediate area as well as in the outlining areas of (pause) Pike County, (pause) Amed County, Franklin County. See, we were down in the corner of Lincoln County. So those were some of the things that I experienced, and participated in. And (pause) my daddy was talking to me and I was asking him “Why was it that he did work the way he did it, and other black folks that I knew did it a different way?” And he said to me, “I’m a man just like anybody, all these other folks are men. So, I’m a man that feels that I shouldn’t have to be working for another man.

[MJT]: [20: 23] Yeah.

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[HW]: So, I don’t intend to be working for any other man for any serious period of time. If there’s work that he has to do, I’d be willing to contract with him but not just working outright for him. So, that was one of the things that motivated and inspired me to look at doing for self, and not having others to be standing over you and you outright working for them and they pay you a small amount, you know, per hour. Obviously, I work by the job. If I finish the job in an hour, that’s me. If it takes me five hours, that’s still me. So, he says, “On the work that I do, I want to be in charge and responsible. But if you got me working by the hour, then you’re running this job.” He said “I’m a man. I run my own job.” And if they couldn’t make a deal, they didn’t make a deal. And if they could, they did. (pause) I went all over the place. I don’t know whether

I answered- did I answer your question? (laughs)

[MJT]: You did, you did. You did. (laughs)

[HW]: Ok. I get to talking and so many different things come to my mind. Some of them I get to, some of them I don’t.

[MJT]: No, you did. So, what are one of your favorite childhood memories?

[HW]: My favorite childhood memories. (pause) My favorite childhood memory (pause) is a ballgame. See, our little community, we developed a team for our community, mostly focusing around baseball. And I remember, one time, we had a game and I’m watching it because I’m too small right now and my daddy was one of the coaches. And we had a man on second base and my daddy went up to third base to coach the runner and (pause) he went up to third base and the James-Thrower 25 batter hit the ball out into the field and my father started telling him to run. He said, “come on, come on.” He was running ahead of the young man trying to get the young man to come on.

(laughs) He tried to make him go into home plate, so we could get the score.

[MJT]: Oh wow. (laughs)

[HW]: And I told my brother, Joe Lewis, you know, say “he actually was out-running the runners.” Cause he was telling them to come on. That’s one of the favorite things that, you know,

I remember from my childhood.

[MJT]: So, tell me a little bit about your educational background?

[HW]: I finished high school at Lincoln County Training School in Bogue Chitto. As a matter a fact, that was the last year that particular school even existed. (pause) They closed that school down- and this had to do with integration and all that- they closed the school down and built a big new school in Brookhaven. And the new school was named Eva Harris, after our? dean? supervisor. ? Dean? supervisors, for the most part, serve and play the role that we now see our superintendents play.

[MJT]: [25:08] Yeah.

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[HW]: So, (pause) I finished (phone rings) in Bogue Chitto. And after finishing in Bogue Chitto with Lincoln County Training school, (phone rings) I went to college. (pause) I started going to

Tougaloo. But as a part of the same thing, I got involved in the Civil Rights Movement.

[MJT]: Yeah.

[HW]: (phone rings) And there was a little off and on, because I had to go on a scholarship.

[MJT]: Yeah.

[HW]: Because otherwise there was no way I would’ve been able to go. So, I started Tougaloo and had to drop out a couple of times because people that had the scholarship wanted to bring some other people on. And worked it out where I could go for a certain period of time and they could go for a certain period of time. So, (pause) I started working in the Civil Rights Movement and at the same time going to Tougaloo. (pause) And going to Tougaloo, you know as I said, I had to go on a scholarship because I didn’t have any money to go because when I added it all up later and looking at how much money my parent made, at the time when I first started college, they made somewhere around $700 per year. So, that don’t make you rich. (laughs) That made you want to get rich. So, I went to Tougaloo. I still continued to work, you know, in the Civil

Rights Movement. That’s where I got the rest of the education that I have. You know, I finished at Tougaloo while at the same time, you know, continuing to work in the Civil Rights

Movement.

James-Thrower 27

[MJT]: So, what inspired you to become a part of the movement?

[HW]: There were a couple of things. One of the things that my father always taught us, especially the boys, is that you must always stand up for what is right. You know? Never stand up for that which is wrong. Stand up for what’s right even if you are the only one standing. So, him teaching me that I began to look at all of the things that was not right happening and going on. And it just said to me “well, if you want to stand up for that which is right that means you need to be standing up against the things that are wrong.” So, I saw that was something that was needed and that should be a broader way that I should look at things. So, the year that I finished high school, (pause) I was invited to a meeting by, (pause)sorry too many things on my mind,

Medgar Evers towards youth chapter for the NAACP. The NAACP was having a youth chapter meeting and I was invited to it. It was having a youth chapter meeting, so I went to it. And in going to it, it was explained all of the details around getting black people ready, and how black people were not this and were not that and we needed to change that condition by doing voter registration. So, I began to work with Medgar Evers and doing voter registration. [30:14] So, that took place for a couple of years and low and behold in 1961, I was told that Martin Luther King had been having meetings. Martin Luther King and some big folks that’s how it was described to me. So, I contact my best-friends out there, my three best-friends out in the country, told them about it and we decided we was gonna go in and see Dr. Martin Luther King. So, we went in to take a look at Dr. Martin Luther King and see what he was talking about. So, when we got to the place where he was supposed to have been having his meetings, we opened the door and went in and there was this little old man standing there. So, we looked at him and we said “look, man, are you Dr. Martin Luther King?” And he said (laughs) “No, I’m not Dr. King.” He says, “I’m James-Thrower 28

Bob Moses.” I said “Ok.” So, we asked, I said “So, what are you doing out here?” And he explained. He said he was a member of an organization which was called, which was mostly students, which was called Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, better known as SNCC.

And he told me about what they were doing and getting people registered to vote. He asked if we would want to work with him and help him do that. And we said yeah. And that’s when I first got started in doing the voter registration and the work. After about one week of doing that with

Bob, the voter registration, another young man came into town. And called him here and he introduced himself. He said “My name is Marion Barry. You know? And I’m the director of

SNCC. SNCC has two programs. One working with voter registration and the other works on direct action. I’m responsible for direct action.” Well, I said “What do you mean by direct action?” So, he explained the whole process and everything about investigating and finding the different businesses that didn’t allow blacks to come (pause) and be a part of their constituency.

And we investigated, did our research, and one of the places was the library. We decided that since we needed to have a good education, a good library is one of the things that enhances that process. So, we decided that we were gonna go and have a sit-in demonstration at the library, knowing that they was going to kick us out or try to kick us out once we got in. We didn’t do our research very good because before getting there we were supposed to be meeting at a certain time, 10 o’clock, and then we was gonna go to the library. So, when we got there, we did a roll call to check. Out of the 22 members of our little group, only two of us was prepared (laughs) to go through and have the demonstration at the library. And you know, I sometimes wonder today what would’ve been the situation with me if I had told all the truth. See, I told my mother and father when I left, I said “Well, I won’t be back tonight. I’m going to spend the night in Mccomb with some old friends.” You know? So, they said “Well, ok. Well, you know how to handle James-Thrower 29 yourself. Just make sure you be who you are. Don’t be somebody else.” I said, “yes ma’am” and

I went on. And I often say, I don’t know what would’ve happened if I had told them the reason I wasn’t coming home was because I was going to get arrested [35:19] (laughs) for attempting to integrate the library.

[MJT]: Yeah.

[HW]: So, when we got to the library- boom- the library was closed. We didn’t investigate enough to get all the information we needed. So, we can’t have the sit-in demonstration at the library. So, we had said we were gonna go to jail that night and we weren’t gonna let nobody turn us around. And we realized that it was a store, right down the street, called Woolworth. And

Woolworth had a lunch counter where they decided to serve people. So, we decided to turn back around and go to Woolworth and sit-in there. And that’s what the two of us did because like I say out of the 22 of us, only 2 of us was prepared to go through. So, that led to my first time being arrested. You know? I went to jail and spent 34 days in jail. And got out. But the little organization kept on working. One of the young ladies that was a part of the organization along with two other young men, you know, a few days after myself and Curtis was arrested, they went to the bus station to try to get a bus ticket and they was arrested and put in jail. And all total,

Curtis and I spend 34 days in jail, cause we all got out at the same time, and they spent 30 days in jail. (pause) So, we continued to work trying to get people registered to vote. Trying to get integrated places and get people involved. The 20 of the students that didn’t come the first time, they began to organize while we were in jail. And they had organized and had people ready because they failed to have gotten the word that Brenda, who was a 15-year-old young lady that James-Thrower 30 went with the other two young men, was going to be kicked out of school. She was not going to be allowed to come back to school. And he group decided that if Brenda was not going to be able to come back to school, we were going to have a walkout. So, things took place and she was not allowed, and the greater portion of the school did walk out.

[MJT]: Wow.

[HW]: Walked out and we had intended to go to Magnolia, which is the County seat for Lincoln

County, and somebody said, “Do people know how far magnolia is?” They said “No, how far is it?” He said, “If we gonna walk to Magnolia, we gonna walk six or seven miles.”

[MJT]: Wow.

[HW]: But we got to change this and instead of going to Magnolia, we went to the city jailhouse in Mccomb and they started arresting us. And that’s where a large number, we had over a 100- something people involved, went along with us. So, that gave a big kick off to the Civil Rights

Movement here in Mississippi. That was some of the beginning of the piece.

[MJT]: So…

[HW]: I probably done talked about everything but what you asked me. (laughs)

James-Thrower 31

[MJT]: (laughs) No, you answered the question. You answered the question. So, what does the

Civil Rights Movement mean to you?

[HW]: [40:17] It means a lot of different things. Number one that it helps me to prove that the word that’s put out there on most young people is not accurate. Cause people talk about how young people today is no good and they not gonna be about anything. They talk about how they not gonna do this, they not gonna do that. See, I have continued over the years to work with local community groups. Some of them are made up of mostly young people and some are made up of adults or elderly people. And when people get to talking about how young people are not about anything, they not gonna be nothing, they won’t do nothing. I can point my finger to a few young people and I can say “look at these people” and in my book there is a group of young people. Did y’all take a look at my book?

[MJT]: No, we didn’t.

[HW]: Well, just to-oh, here they are- (pulls out his book and hands me one) What’s that page number?

[MJT]: 342.

[HW]: (pages flip) You can take a look at the photograph at the bottom. These are the movers and shakers of the movement, especially in Mississippi right now. Start naming them. James-Thrower 32

[MJT]: Okay. Brenda Hyde.

[HW]: Okay. She is the assistant director of an organization I started 30 years ago. Alright and she is considered one of the best organizers in the state and in the south.

[MJT]: Wow. Okay.

[HW]: Yeah, Brenda. And the other one is?

[MJT]: Marilyn Young.

James-Thrower 33

[HW]: Marilyn Young. I met her when she was thirteen. (laughs) I’ve been working with her ever since. She heads up an organization that’s in ____ County. Which is considered the number one organization that is in the northern part of the city. And you got who else?

[MJT]: Sabir Abdul H- (stutters)

[HW]: Sabir Abdul Haqq. Sabir, I started working with him just a little bit before he finished high school.

[MJT]: Wow.

[HW]: [44:56] And he worked with Southern Echo for a period of time. And as a part of that, you know, he figured out how to do the computer. And he was producing material and all those kinds of things for movement people. And the other one you got is?

[MJT]: Nsombi? Nsombi? (can’t pronounce)

[HW]: Nsombi.

[MJT]: Nsombi.

[HW]: She worked with me at Southern Echo for a few years and I told her says “you can reach out.” And now she is the executive director of One Voice. One Voice is an organization that James-Thrower 34

Derrick started when he was with the NAACP. Did I mention that Derrick is the national man for the NAACP now?

[MJT]: Oh wow!

[HW]: Yeah. Derrick is the national president.

[MJT]: Kassandra Welcher?

[HW]: Kassandra. She heads up another local organization in the local area.

[MJT]: Oh.

[HW]: There’s another one on there. Mac?

[MJT]: Yeah.

[HW]: Epps.

[MJT]: Yeah.

[HW]: I worked with his granddaughter in (Holmes?) County in 1964 on a summer project and a few years after that. So, he has taken on the role of doing some organizing to try and help which James-Thrower 35 his grandmother and others were trying to bring about. So, I just wanted to give you just a small just some of the young folks that folks talk about not doing anything. When they really is doing something.

[MJT]: Yeah.

[HW]: Alright let’s get back on track (laughs).

[MJT]: (laughs) So, on a more musical note. What does music mean to you?

[HW]: Music to me, I see it as a unifier. Having been born in the south, Mississippi in particular, growing up in a church, and looking at how we did it in the church. I’d say well, “If music could do it for the people in the church then music could do it for the people who were not in the church.” (pauses) So, what am I talking about? So, when we went to church and things got kicked off, they got it kicked off through song.

[MJT]: Yeah.

[HW]: People would sing. It’s a means by which people can give out information. It’s a method by which people can cause others to become motivated. Music inspired them. You know? That’s what music does. I see that. I saw that and still see it having come from out of the church. A binding, you know. You might see a sister or brother over there that you don’t know or haven’t even seen but in this beginning program, he’s really doing some singing that motivates and James-Thrower 36 inspires you. So, you gonna go over to that person at the end of the meeting and say, “I sure did you like your singing.” You know? “Sister. I thought it was so wonderful” Even I have (pause)

[50:02] to admit, it was good to me. You know? It was. It uplifted my spirit and motivated me.

So, if music can do all of this, create this whole atmosphere of unity, motivation, inspiration. If music can do that when it relates to our religious, you know, aspect, why can’t we use that same piece and carry it over into bring us together. Cause you know if we’re going to be doing things that’s real beneficial, we need to be doing things together. So, what’s the best thing to bring us together? We don’t fuss too much about this song or that song. Just hit it and go with it and before you know it, sister, brother, I be out there with you. So, that’s how I looked at music. You know? And I said that music is one of the very most important tools that people who are trying to bring people together, you know, could use. We proved and used that during the Civil Rights

Movement. And if we did it then? (bangs table) We today is no better (bangs table) than we were yesterday in terms of bringing people together and ways of which to do it. People feel uplifted.

People feel motivated. People feel united. (pauses) Excuse me for almost preaching. (laughs) I get to talking about this stuff and it’s so much. I get excited.

[MJT]: So, what (pause) was the planning like- well, you kind of already talked about this. But, you participated in walkouts and sit-ins, so what was the planning like for your first walk out or your first sit in?

[HW]: The first step had to do with identifying people/places that discriminated. So, we’re talking about ending segregation and discrimination. So, we identified the places first. After identifying the places, we outlined and identified the methods by which the demonstration and James-Thrower 37 all of that and the way the demonstration was taking places. And then we have our mass meeting.

You come in, after we open up with one or two songs. Then we begin to make your report. Of all of the places Mccomb, of all the places in Jackson, these are the places that we found that discriminate. They discriminate in this way. So, we need to decide which one of these we gonna start with. Cause we not talking about a finite thing. So, the whole group makes a decision based on the information they have on which one they think we need to start. What method should we use? And how many? And who goes?

[MJT]: So, throughout the planning process or (clears throat) just throughout the movement in general, did you ever feel discouraged by any of your family?

[HW]: No, I had folks that thought I was crazy (laughs) and thought I had no business doing what I was doing. [55:00] (pauses) Do we need to open the door, it seems y’all really gonna get hot up in here?

[MJT]: (laughs) Oh no, it’s fine.

[HW]: Are you sure cause we could open this one?

[MJT]: No, it’s fine, thank you though.

[HW]: So, we make that decision of which is which and we go, and we have a second planning to determine how we gonna do it. Whether we gonna all walk in there at one time or, you know, James-Thrower 38 two walk in there at a time or three walk in at a time. So, all of these fine points and logistics we do that in the meeting.

[MJT]: Yeah.

[HW]: Then down to who are gonna be the ones that’s gonna do this.

[MJT]: Can you name a point during your experience with the movement where you felt discouraged? At any point?

[HW]: Never.

[MJT]: Wow.

[HW]: Never in my life.

[MJT]: (laughs) That’s crazy.

[HW]: Thanks to the brother that wrote the song. I done forgot the brother, but I know the song says (sings) keep on pushing, you can’t stop now. (stops singing) And that’s the spirit I took.

Can’t stop now, I have to keep on.

[MJT]: Wow. So, what was one of your proudest moments? James-Thrower 39

[HW]: One of my proudest moments has to do with (pauses) who runs and who is in charge and who controls things. When that discovery came to me, I knew I had really come up on something. We were trying to find churches in Greenwood to house and disperse old clothes, food until we dispersed them to the families that needed them. And we went to almost every church in Greenwood and nobody would let us have it. We started out talking to the deacons and the preachers. After we ran that circuit and didn’t get nothing. I was coming down the street one day, and it was a little old lady sitting on the other side of the street in her rocking chair. And she said, “come here baby.” I was like what on earth. (laughs) How she knows me, you know, and whether she know me and all these kinds of things. And she said, “I see you not from here.” I look around and go “wow, how she know I’m not from here.” (laughs) You know, these are the things that’s running through my mind. She said, “I see you not from here.” I said, “no ma’am,

I’m not from here in Greenwood, but I am from Mississippi.” She said “Well, that’s good. Well, what are you doing here in Greenwood?” So, I told her, you know, (names people ineligible) had raised food and clothes for the poor people in the Delta and we were looking for a place to store that until we could put it in different kind of packages and let the people know that on a certain date, we gonna be giving this stuff away. She said “oh, well why don’t you use my church for that?” (makes explosion noise) You know? (laughs) Just kinda all kinds of lights and things went off in my head. I said, “you mean we can use your church for that?” She said (clears throat)

“of course, for a good thing like that, you can have my church.” And she said, “matter fact, if you come by here tomorrow right after 12 o’clock, I’ll be here, and I’ll have the keys to the church for you.” Now me and the other brother, we had gone to that church. And the preacher and the deacon said “No, you cannot use our church.” And I know that, cause I asked her. James-Thrower 40

“What’s the name of your church?” [1:00:05] And she dropped the name and I said, “oh very well.” I said “Well, I’ll definitely be by tomorrow. (laughs) You know, right after 12.” And I did that, and as I was coming cross the street to go, she went down in her little bag on the floor, you know, on her front porch and when I got there, she said “Here they are. Y’all have a good time.”

And I said “Wow.” It’s too often that too many times we overlook, and walk right over the help, and the people we need that can help us do what we need to be doing and need to be done

(pauses) for the sake of how one look or how some other folks have presented them. Well, that’s one of my great points.

[MJT]: Wow, so, (pause) can you name a time that you know music made a difference in your life?

[HW]: Music made a difference?

[MJT]: Yeah, that music had like a large impact on that moment.

[HW]: (pause) It would be a consistency. You know? The areas where there was a lot more singing, you had a greater impact and more participation coming from people. And the other part about that is that you wanted to get as many people as possible from the church involved in the singing. And that’s one of the reasons, even today, when I speak to different groups. You know I also generally sing one or two songs and as I sing them songs, I invite people. If they don’t know them, I teach it to them right there on the spot. (chuckles) Cause once they get involved in doing it, they gonna feel good about it themselves (pauses) and they become aware. That goes for you James-Thrower 41 to, you haven’t gotten away. We gonna sing a little bit. (laughs)

[MJT]: (laughs) Okay.

[HW]: (laughs) You down with that right?

[MJT]: (laughs) Yeah. So, at a jazz festival in Berlin in 1964, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. said that “Much of the power of our Freedom Movement in the United States has come from this music. It has strengthened us with its sweet rhythms when courage began to fail. It has calmed us with its rich harmonies when spirits were down.” What is your reaction to that?

[HW]: I second the motion. (laughs) That’s true, you know? If you’ve been involved, you can clearly see and point to whereas the music grew, the participation grew. And that’s why we try to get people locally to tie in to it and sing with us. You know? And in all communities and also all churches you gonna find a handful of folks that will sing and love singing. And you got others that love singing but they shamed, you know? Cause I ask people. I said, “let me see the hands of everybody that can sing?” You know? A couple folks raise they hands. I said “Well, I asked the question wrong.” Well, let me ask it this way. I said “Well, let me see the hands of those of you who have never at any point of time in your life attempted to sing one line of any verse in any song?” You guessed no hands there. [1:05:12] So, well all of us can sing. The problem is that this society has us hung up in dealing with quality. Good and better. You know? This is not a contest. This is a process by which we all collectively are talking about problems that we James-Thrower 42 collectively face. And looking at methods, ways, processes by which we can do what’s necessary to eliminate those problems. So, let’s sing this song.

[MJT]: (laughs) Okay. (pauses) I don’t know any.

[HW]: Yeah, you do. You know.

[MJT]: I don’t know. What are we going to sing?

[HW]: Alright, well, since you are a singer and ain’t got no problem with letting your little light shine. There’s an invitational song. See, even the name of the songs are based on what they did.

You know? There’s an invitational song, here’s an example, where you invite people to get involved. Like this. (singing) Get on board, children, children. Get on board, children, children.

Get on board, children, children. Let’s fight for human rights. (stops singing) See, now that applies to all of us. Cause all of us is somebody’s child. I didn’t say the children of so and so

(laughs) Okay, so let’s go.

[MJT and HW]: (singing) Get on board, children, children. Get on board, children, children. Get on board, children, children. Let’s fight for human rights. (stops singing)

[HW]: Once more.

James-Thrower 43

[MJT and HW]: (singing) Get on board, children, children. Get on board, children, children. Get on board, children, children. Let’s fight for human rights. (stops singing)

[HW]: (singing) I hear those mobs a howling. They’re coming round thus where. To catch them freedom fighters but we gonna beat them there.

[MJT and HW]: (singing) Get on board, children, children. Get on board, children, children. Get on board, children, children. Let’s fight for human rights.

[HW]: (singing) As fighters, we go hungry. Sometimes we go to jail. But when you fighting for freedom, a friend will go your bail.

[MJT and HW]: (singing) Get on board, children, children. Get on board, children, children. Get on board, children, children. Let’s fight for human rights.

[HW]: (talking) Once more.

[MJT and HW]: (singing) Get on board, children, children. Get on board, children, children. Get on board, children, children. Let’s fight for human rights. (stops singing)

[HW]: There was a whole thing about fear. You know? We sang a song to help us to deal with that. You know? Cause we be marching, and next thing you know they come out with the dogs.

You know? So, we got a song that helps us to deal with that. (singing) Ain’t scared of nobody James-Thrower 44 cause I want my freedom. I want my freedom. I want my freedom. Ain’t scared of nobody cause

I want my freedom. I want my freedom now. (stop singing) Then they come out with the dogs, and we had a verse for the dogs. We sang (singing) “Ain’t scared of your dog cause I want my freedom. I want my freedom. I want my freedom. Ain’t scared of your dog cause I want my freedom. I want my freedom now. (stops singing) Help me.

[MJT and HW]: (singing) Ain’t scared of your dog cause I want my freedom. I want my freedom. I want my freedom. Ain’t scared of your dog cause I want my freedom. I want my freedom now. (stops singing)

[HW]: [1:10:16] “This your turn, turn around go back, we gonna put all of y’all in jail.”

[MJT]: Wow.

[HW]: The jails was a very frightening piece when you wave it in front of black people.

Especially a black male. Why was that? That was because so many of the black men that went to jail never made it out alive. And white people knew that. They know that, so they wave that in front of you to keep you from doing, you know, whatever you was doing. But then, that’s what they would shout out to us after the dog thing didn’t work. “Well, we gonna put all you so and so, niggas, in jail. You just stand there.” And we start singing, we done sang the one to nullify the dogs, and then we look them in the eye and tell them (singing) “Ain’t scared to go to jail cause I want my freedom. I want my freedom. I want my freedom. Ain’t scared to go to jail James-Thrower 45 cause I want my freedom. I want my freedom now.” (stops singing) You didn’t join in with me on that one.

[MJT]: (laughs) I’m sorry.

[MJT and HW]: (singing) “Ain’t scared of your jail cause I want my freedom. I want my freedom. I want my freedom. Ain’t scared of your jail cause I want my freedom. I want my freedom now.” (stops singing)

[HW]: And there’s one that I wrote, not to long ago, in honor of Nelson Mandela. (pause) So, it go like this. (singing) “Ol’ Mandela, Mandela. Ol’ Mandela, Mandela. Ol’ Mandela, Mandela.

We gonna set Mandela free.” (stops singing) Ok, now do that one.

[MJT and HW]: (singing) “Ol’ Mandela, Mandela. Ol’ Mandela, Mandela. Ol’ Mandela,

Mandela. We gonna set Mandela free.”

[HW]: (singing) Ol’ Mandela, he crossed the land. Shouting people “take a stand.”

[MJT and HW]: (singing) “Ol’ Mandela, Mandela. Ol’ Mandela, Mandela. Ol’ Mandela,

Mandela. We gonna set Mandela free.”

[HW]: (singing) Cape town. Morocco. Freedom comes, and apartheid go.

James-Thrower 46

[MJT and HW]: (singing) “Ol’ Mandela, Mandela. Ol’ Mandela, Mandela. Ol’ Mandela,

Mandela. We gonna set Mandela free.”

[HW]: (singing) The rich says yes. The poor says no. We wonder where did ____ go.

[MJT and HW]: (singing) “Ol’ Mandela, Mandela. Ol’ Mandela, Mandela. Ol’ Mandela,

Mandela. We gonna set Mandela free.”

[HW]: See, if you got up and sang that and dropped that out there and you got folks joining with you. Well, child, I wanna go see what they got going and even if it’s for no other reason, I just want to be a part of singing them songs. You don’t care whether it’s the songs that bring them to the meeting or whether it’s their understanding of the situation that you’re dealing with. (pauses)

Well, go ahead now. Like I said, I get off in a minute. And, then I don’t want you to say I could’ve done, I would’ve done, I should’ve done.

[MJT]: Yeah. (papers shuffling) So, I’m gonna ask you to describe these two photos. (pulls out photos) [1:15:01] and compare.

[HW]: (looks at photos) (pauses) (picks up black and white photo) Well, number 1, this here seems to be a photograph of people who are excited and enjoying each other’s company. Having a joyous time. That is singing something that perhaps is presenting a message that they would like for others to hear and help others to help them engage in distributing. (hands back photo)

(looks at Beyoncé and Jay Z photo) (pauses) To me, it’s crazy but it’s a reality. It’s one that we James-Thrower 47 should teach, especially our younger people, of how we are not (pauses) animals. And since we are not animals we should not (pause) display our bodies as animals. And it’s a situation where as I’m this brother is helping to promote this piece of madness rather than helping the sister to

(pause) (hands back photo) do further disgracement.

[MJT]: Music has always been seen as self-expression. So, how would you compare popular music within the movement with popular music today?

[HW]: [1:19:22] Well, the thing about music, (pauses) different people who do music have different reasons for doing it. So, (pauses) what is the kind (pause) of music (pause) that’s needed in order to do (pause) you know, the job that you are trying to do. [1:20:01] (pause) And see when you look at something like what the brother and sister is doing. They are putting forward invitation to others saying this is alright to be out there on the world-wide view to show you our thinking here, you know, as black people in particular. And I think it’s unfortunate and I think (pause) we need to ask ourselves what is it (pause) that we’re trying to do? What is it that we’re trying to get? What do we expect to come as a result? I’m pretty sure there’s going to be, if not already has been, some serious (pause) repercussions on (pause) someone. Because there are some of us out there who’s minds have been so warped until someone says something James-Thrower 48 negative about how we present our bodies and what we’re presenting them for, and part of bad consequences will come on as a part of that.

[MJT]: If there was one thing you could tell me or any other young person today that you have learned, what would it be?

[HW]: (pause) One of the things that I would say for young people, and not just young people, us as a race that we (pause) need to look at (pause) where is it that we’re trying to go. What is it that

I am attempting to do? And see what is the best method, what is the best route. And I would say make a decision as to where it is you are trying to go. And in making the decision of where you’re trying to go, what’s going to be needed in order for you to get there. What kind of impact will the things you do have on other young people or older people. Is it going to be a positive or a negative? That’s what I would say. Take a look at it. (pause) And if it don’t sound right.

Reexamine.

[MJT]: So, is there anything else that I missed that you think would help me better understand the subject?

[HW]: [1:24:36] There’s a word that too many of us overlook and we should think about it and come with the answer. Which is the hardest question I’ve ever been asked came from one of my sons when he was around five or six. I said something to him about something and he put that one terrible word on me. You know what that was?

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[MJT]: [1:25:24] I think I do.

[HW]: What?

[MJT]: Was it the N-word? Was that the word?

[HW]: The terrible word that he put on me was why. Why, daddy? Why? I gave him a little answer. Well, why that? Why this? Toughest question that I’ve ever had to answer. (laughs)

[MJT]: (laughs) Wow.

[HW]: That’s what we need to think about before we jump into doing things. If we’ve already began then we should stop, pause and ask ourselves “still why”? Because once we get the answer to that question, we get to where we really need to be which is to continue or turn around and go the other way.

[MJT]: Wow. Ok, so how did you become the one that was chosen to start singing the songs in the movement?

[HW]: I’m not sure but I believe it had to do with me not being afraid to get up before groups of people. My family had a singing quartet at one time. My daddy brought me up on the floor in the presence of (pause) all numbers of people when I was 5 years old. And he tell them said “this is my baby. You know? He can sing a little bit. And one day he gonna be ____.” So, my daddy James-Thrower 50 instilled in me that it was alright to do that but before I got up before people, I had something to say. And once I had something to say, not be afraid to say it. I didn’t look at what a lot of people looked at (phone buzzes) and that was created the criteria of what is good and what is bad in terms of singing. (pause) My feeling was that this is one way of one expressing him or herself.

And when they did it, they did it based on themselves. And none of us are exactly the same and my best is my best. And you don’t think about that until you’re dealing with me. And your best is your best. Either way, regardless of what you do, if you have done your best then I need to except that. If your best is not what my best is, then I need to except that and move that process forward. So, (pause) I was a willing soul that was willing to get up and share what I had. And I also looked at the whole thing and you know, I [1:29:47] (pause) feel that God had given me something and he gave it to me for me to use. And if I did music and God had blessed me with it, so that I could use it, he might take that blessing away. And that was the spirit and attitude that

I came from. You know? I was a willing soul that was willing to take a chance on whatever the degree I could say or whatever degree I could sing would be enough to inspire, motivate, or bring into being at least one person into the fold. And as I looked at it, if I was able to bring one person in to be involved, I had been successful.

[MJT]: [1:31:06] So, what was your favorite song in the movement?

[HW]: I didn’t have any favorite songs. I allowed the spirit of the people in terms of their struggling based on what people were attempting to do. Based on how I was intending to try to motivate, guide, and direct the song I sang be the one to motivate and inspire you to do that James-Thrower 51 particular thing. You know? And that’s what I did you. I didn’t have no problem or any kind of reluctance in doing in order for that to come about.

[MJT]: Do you remember the first song you sang or learned?

[HW]: (pause) No, I don’t (laughs) That was 70 something years ago. (laughs) I don’t remember everything from the last 70 something years. See, again is that I also had faith with that religious piece with that real true faith in almighty God. I always had faith and confidence that I’m going to this program. I know so and so and so is going to take place. They are going to want me to sing one or two songs. I had faith that before I actually sang the song, God is going to reveal to me which one I was going to sing, and I go with that. You know? And, I understood that he knew more about the folks that's out there than I. And with him knowing more about the folks that’s out there than I, he can guide, coach, direct me. The question is whether I accept that or not, and when it comes from that deep feeling below, it lets me know whether it’s coming from him, or whether it’s otherwise.

[MJT]: Wow.

[HW]: That do? (laughs)

[MJT]: (laughs) Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing your reflections with me.

[HW]: Sure, you’re welcome. James-Thrower 52

Interview Analysis

As life was unfolding right in front of Mr. Hollis Watkins, it was no question whether or not the moments of the Civil Rights Movement would be considered history. As Tuchman said, “the point is not whether the fall of the tree made a noise, but whether it left a mark on the forest.”36

History is a series of events that made some sort of impact on the people and things around it.

Oral history differs from other historical sources because oral history gives historians the chance to hear a first-person perspective. A lot can be learned in one conversation that can be missed easily in an article. Listening to another person’s experiences can cause self-reflection.

Oral history provides the opportunity to learn from someone instead of from something.

The terms of the historian that are most relevant to my project are time and place rule, memory, primary sources, unconscious preconception, and selection. Time and place rule is one of the most relevant terms because slavery, racism, and resistance varied in different places.

Some places felt less inclined to participate in the Civil Rights Movement than others. It is important to note music’s impact on places that were eager to join the movement, and places that feared repercussions. Memory applies to my project in that Mr. Watkins has lived a long life.

With age, it can be hard to remember things as they happened. Mr. Watkins memory helped a great deal in telling me about his part in the Civil Rights Movement. He remembered moments from when he was four years old that amazed me. Having a primary source like Mr. Watkins was extremely helpful. Mr. Watkins was a participant in the movement. Having his first-hand experience helped me better understand the environment he grew up in. We all have unconscious preconceptions, but I saw these preconceptions as a common theme throughout the project. As a black person, I have my own opinions about the Civil Rights Movement that I may not share

36 Practicing History: Selected Essay by Barbara W. Tuchman James-Thrower 53 with my peers. Mr. Watkins and I have very different opinions due to many differences between us, one of them being age. I think that it was interesting to see how our reactions to the movement differ. Selectivity was another common theme that appeared throughout my interview. During the interview, I asked Mr. Watkins to compare a picture of Beyoncé during a performance and a black and white picture of black people singing in a church. Mr. Watkins was obviously uncomfortable. I could tell that he didn’t really know what to say. I think that it’s necessary to be selective when talking about the time period of music. As time passes, what is considered to be good music changes.

The strengths of Oral history are being able to hear from someone else’s personal experience and being able to learn from them. With Oral History, you are given first-hand experience of what happened during the event. There may be cases where the interviewee is bias or may have their own unconscious preconception. The witness or participant in the event in history may be selective about the things they choose to share.

During the interview, Mr. Watkins told me many things that helped me better understand his experience. Mr. Watkins told me, “I was told as a young man, that if I was walking down the street and saw a white man coming down the street, it was my responsibility to step off to the side of the sidewalk, bow my head until the white man passed by.” This proves how strong racism was in his community and how much change was needed. Mr. Watkins also said, “Stand up for what’s right even if you are the only one standing.” During one of his first sit-ins, Mr.

Watkins was one out of two people who were ready and prepared for the demonstration. There was a need for more people like Mr. Watkins who were willing to stand up for what he believed in. He told me, “If music could do it for the people in the church then music could do it for the people who were not in the church.” He believed that if music could bring people together in James-Thrower 54 church, then it could definitely untie black communities throughout Mississippi. Music could provide security for all the people who needed to be set free. Mr. Watkins showed how music affected different areas when he said that “areas where there was a lot more singing, you had a greater impact and more participation coming from people.” Where music was played and where there were people who believed in what music could do, he had more participation in the movement. Music did create an impact bigger than just what Mr. Watkins or anyone else could see. Music had the power to overcome obstacles as well. He also said, “There was a whole thing about fear. You know? We sang a song to help us to deal with that.” Music helped people cope with their fear of jail, or being murdered. Songs were sung to get through any hurdles thrown towards the people of the movement.

He said “at the time when I first started college, they made somewhere around $700 per year.

So, that don’t make you rich. (laughs) That made you want to get rich.” I think that this quote is a good representation of how Mr.Watkins grew up. I think that his family is very important to him. I think out of all the things he said throughout the interview, I could tell that he had a very strong relationship with his father and siblings. I think that this taught him to be grateful for what he had. He was instilled the idea of hard work from the beginning of his life. I think that Mr.

Watkins brought dedication with him on his journey to freedom. Mr. Watkins says “If I finish the job in an hour, that’s me. If it takes me five hours, that’s still me.” I think that this quote is also a great summarization of Mr. Watkins life as a child. Since he was young, his father told him the importance of working for yourself. He learned at a young age that a man shouldn’t have someone looking over his shoulder at his work. He said that his father was one of the things that inspired him. I think that, because he was taught at a young age to work with people not work for James-Thrower 55 people, he wanted even more to work with the people oppressing blacks and his fellow allies to achieve equal rights.

Mr. Watkins shared a story that was specific to his experience that I found interesting. He told me a story about how when he was younger his mother sent him and his father to the store to retrieve sugar. The store owners were white. The store owners were running low on sugar so they stopped selling sugar to black people. Obviously, Mr. Watkins father understood what was going on and was willing to walk away. Mr. Watkins, being so young, didn’t understand why his father wouldn’t get sugar when he saw white people walking out of the store with sugar. Mr. Watkins kept telling his father that they had sugar and to go get some, and his father had to take Mr.

Watkins away to avoid any conflict. Mr. Watkins also told me that when he was younger he had been told that he had to stop walking, bow his head, and step off to the side when a white person passes him on the sidewalk. He said that if he hadn’t done this he might’ve been killed.

Especially when it was a white woman because he might’ve been accused of “eyeball-raping” her. The woman would then have him killed. These stories made me realize how prominent racism truly was. Not being able to even walk down the street without fear is something that I’ve never thought about. I never thought about the tiny details that could’ve result in conflict like sugar or walking down the sidewalk.

Both the concept paper and transcription both talked about the affect music had on communities. In my transcription, Mr. Watkins gave me more of an understanding of what music really did. He told me that music was used to bring people together and create change. Music was used as a way to lure people to meetings. People gathered at demonstrations and meetings just to sing and be sung to. Music held so much power that people wanted to participate. The songs sung held power in the minds of the people. James-Thrower 56

In 2004, Ms. Finley- Pringle conducted an interview with someone who witnessed the Black arts Movement as opposed to someone who was involved. Tahirah asked Ms. Simmons questions about her reactions to the movement and people of the movement. Tahirah had specific questions about people involved in the movement and how those people affected Ms. Simmons. I interviewed a participant of the Civil Rights Movement. I mostly asked questions according to

Mr. Watkins experience. Most of my questions were about Mr. Watkins life as a young black man instead of the movement. When he told about his experience, he ended up talking about the movement and how important the movement was to him. The movement and music itself held a very special place in Mr. Watkins’ heart. He got very excited while speaking with me about his past.

I think that Mr. Watkins said a lot of powerful things during the interview that I had never thought about before. I think this interview drew my attention to things that I didn’t research. In my research, I didn’t search much about racism or why the change, that music helped bring, was so necessary. Mr. Watkins spoke about racism and how hard his childhood was in the interview as well as how music brought him joy. When I asked if there was ever a time of discouragement, he told me never. I didn’t think that someone who lived throughout something so horrific could have such a joyous spirit. I think that others can learn, from this interview, that as young people, or old people, we carry power and our voices carry power.

This project taught me to have more faith in myself because I was very insecure walking into this project. I was scared that I wasn’t going to make the deadlines, or that I was never going to complete my interview. I think that I could’ve planned much better for the interview. I think that this interview has also taught me that people who have stories to tell will tell them willingly if James-Thrower 57 you’re willing to listen. I think that this interview taught me that no matter how old I get or how broken I feel, music and the community music builds will help me.

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