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Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee Thursday 3 September 2020 Session 5 © Parliamentary copyright. Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body Information on the Scottish Parliament’s copyright policy can be found on the website - www.parliament.scot or by contacting Public Information on 0131 348 5000 Thursday 3 September 2020 CONTENTS Col. INTERESTS......................................................................................................................................................... 1 HERITAGE SECTOR (IMPACT OF COVID-19) ......................................................................................................... 2 CULTURE, TOURISM, EUROPE AND EXTERNAL AFFAIRS COMMITTEE 19th Meeting 2020, Session 5 CONVENER *Joan McAlpine (South Scotland) (SNP) DEPUTY CONVENER *Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) COMMITTEE MEMBERS *Annabelle Ewing (Cowdenbeath) (SNP) Kenneth Gibson (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) Dean Lockhart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) *Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) *Oliver Mundell (Dumfriesshire) (Con) *Beatrice Wishart (Shetland Islands) (LD) *attended THE FOLLOWING ALSO PARTICIPATED: Caroline Clark (National Lottery Heritage Fund in Scotland) Rachael Hamilton (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) (Committee Substitute) Giles Ingram (Abbotsford Trust) Philip Long (National Trust for Scotland) Alex Paterson (Historic Environment Scotland) CLERK TO THE COMMITTEE Stephen Herbert LOCATION Virtual Meeting 1 3 SEPTEMBER 2020 2 Scottish Parliament Heritage Sector (Impact of Covid-19) Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee 09:35 Thursday 3 September 2020 The Convener: Item 1 is evidence on the impact of Covid-19 on Scotland’s heritage sector. I welcome to the meeting Philip Long, who is the [The Convener opened the meeting at 09:35] chief executive of the National Trust for Scotland; Alex Paterson, who is the chief executive of Interests Historic Environment Scotland; and Caroline Clark, who is director of the National Lottery The Convener (Joan McAlpine): Good Heritage Fund in Scotland. morning, everyone, and welcome to the 19th meeting in 2020 of the Culture, Tourism, Europe We hope to be joined by Giles Ingram, who is and External Affairs Committee. This is our 10th the chief executive of the Abbotsford Trust, but virtual meeting. there have been some technical difficulties with his connection. We hope that he will be able to join us We have received apologies from Kenneth at some time during the committee’s meeting. Gibson MSP, Ross Greer MSP and Dean Lockhart MSP. However, I am pleased to be able to I remind everyone to give broadcasting staff a welcome Rachael Hamilton MSP as a substitute few seconds to operate your microphones before for Dean Lockhart. I ask Rachael Hamilton to you begin your questions or answers. I would also declare any interests that are relevant to the remit be grateful if questions and answers could be kept of the committee. as succinct as possible. Because our panel is larger than usual for the format of the meeting, I Rachael Hamilton (Ettrick, Roxburgh and would be grateful if members could indicate at Berwickshire) (Con): I draw members’ attention which witness their questions are directed. to my entry in the register of interests. I have an interest in a small hospitality business in the I will open the questioning and then move to the Scottish Borders. deputy convener, Claire Baker, before I bring in other members. I thank all our witnesses for The Convener: For clarity, I draw attention to joining us this morning and for your detailed my declaration of interests. I am the chair of a written submissions ahead of your appearance. I small heritage charity that has received funding think that all committee members have found them from the National Lottery Heritage Fund. to be very helpful. The committee is particularly interested in looking ahead at possible permanent structural changes across the tourism and culture sectors, as a result of the pandemic. Your written submissions address that issue very well. In respect of heritage, in particular, a potential focus on making better use of green space and the challenges around that was addressed. Submissions also talk about the fact that you are dependent on volunteers who tend to be older and the challenges of that, about how to attract more younger visitors, given that older visitors might be staying at home, and about how to make adjustments for older visitors. I note that a number of submissions talked about identifying new sources of income and the challenges of domestic visitor income replacing that from international visitors, who tend to spend more. You have clearly identified the need to restructure. Could you share with the committee how long that restructuring process will take and, 3 3 SEPTEMBER 2020 4 perhaps, drill down into some of the measures that interesting. Over the past couple of years, we you need to take to adjust to the new reality? have worked with Young Scot to provide youth access to our properties, which has been well Who would like to go first? received, but beyond that there are a number of Caroline Clark (National Lottery Heritage things that we might do to engage more young Fund in Scotland): As you will have seen from people. For example, in recent years, we have our written submission, we have done a survey of been doing a lot of work in education and learning, the sector and, more recently, deep-dive using the historic environment to teach science, interviews, which highlighted issues such as technology, engineering and mathematics depletion of reserves and the impact of Covid on subjects. That is now part of the national older volunteers, who are the absolute bedrock of curriculum. Engaging through education is very the heritage and cultural sector in this country. important. We are going to have to look at how we can To tie this in with the programme for engage young people in the sector to replace government that was announced this week, I note those older people, by providing meaningful that opportunities relating to skills and employment volunteering opportunities that result in in the sector for young people are really important. qualifications that give them opportunities to carry A year or so back, we published “Skills Investment on with employment in the sector as they move on Plan for Scotland’s Historic Environment Sector”, in life. which was the first time that such a plan had been done. It set out a number of challenges and We also look need to look hard at collaborative objectives. There will be a need for skills, including work among the various national organisations traditional skills, and there will be job opportunities that operate across all the rural and urban areas of based on those. The historic environment portfolio our country. For me, an aspect that is coming out in Scotland—houses, castles and everything strongly is the risk that is faced by rural areas that else—needs constant reinvestment and skills. rely heavily on tourism. How can we support keeping young people in those areas in order to The sector is also at the leading edge of climate keep the heritage and cultural assets there alive research, digital technologies and green agendas. and thriving? We project that things will not be There is a real opportunity for the sector to offer back to pre-Covid levels of viability until 2023. young people skills, education and training and, to use the First Minister’s phrase, for The Convener: Thank you. That is very useful. I believe that we have Giles Ingram back. Giles, can “new jobs, good jobs and green jobs”. you hear me? There are still technical issues with The Convener: Thank you. That is a very Giles, so I will go to Alex Paterson. upbeat assessment, which is good to hear. Do we HES has identified issues in its written have Giles Ingram now? No, we do not. I will move submission. Do you recognise the challenges that on to Philip Long. the work by Caroline Clark’s organisation has We wrote to the National Trust for Scotland identified? How will you meet those challenges? about redundancies when they were first Alex Paterson (Historic Environment threatened. We are very pleased to see that a Scotland): Thank you, convener, and good number of properties are to open and that many morning. jobs have been saved as a result of the Scottish Government’s investment. How did you identify A number of consistent themes have come the properties that would be saved with that through in all the research that has been done by investment? Is there a remaining gap in funding Caroline Clark’s organisation and my organisation. and a risk to the trust in the short to medium term? The obvious themes are delays to projects, If you want also to address concerns about long- increased costs, how to replace lost revenue, and term opportunities and sustainability, that would be threats to jobs and expertise. As we go forward, it welcome. is probably important to look at quite a number of things. 09:45 We should not forget that most organisations in the sector are still grappling with the here-and-now Philip Long (National Trust for Scotland): I challenges of the Covid emergency and its impact am grateful that the Scottish Government on them. I will offer thoughts on the future in a supported the turnaround plan that we developed second, but the realities of getting through the in consultation with Scottish Enterprise, and that a current crisis are still very much at the front of group was set up to consider that. The trust was people’s minds. facing a severe crisis, but I echo Alex Paterson’s upbeat assessment and would like to focus on I will address one or two of the things that you some of that today. mentioned. The issue about young people is really 5 3 SEPTEMBER 2020 6 Early in the crisis, we identified that it might be economy, to our communities, to people’s possible to reopen about 27 properties, which we wellbeing, to employment and to how our nation is have been able to increase significantly to about understood in this country and around the world.

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