Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Relations Committee Thursday 9 November 2017 Session 5 © Parliamentary copyright. Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body Information on the Scottish Parliament’s copyright policy can be found on the website - www.parliament.scot or by contacting Public Information on 0131 348 5000 Thursday 9 November 2017 CONTENTS Col. IMMIGRATION ..................................................................................................................................................... 1 CULTURE, TOURISM, EUROPE AND EXTERNAL RELATIONS COMMITTEE 26th Meeting 2017, Session 5 CONVENER *Joan McAlpine (South Scotland) (SNP) DEPUTY CONVENER Lewis Macdonald (North East Scotland) (Lab) COMMITTEE MEMBERS Jackson Carlaw (Eastwood) (Con) *Mairi Gougeon (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) *Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) *Rachael Hamilton (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) *Richard Lochhead (Moray) (SNP) *Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) Tavish Scott (Shetland Islands) (LD) *attended THE FOLLOWING ALSO PARTICIPATED: Dr Alasdair Allan (Minister for International Development and Europe) Angela Hallam (Scottish Government) Dean Lockhart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) (Committee Substitute) Rachel Sunderland (Scottish Government) CLERK TO THE COMMITTEE Katy Orr LOCATION The Mary Fairfax Somerville Room (CR2) 1 9 NOVEMBER 2017 2 The committee will have seen our response to Scottish Parliament the UK’s Migration Advisory Committee, published yesterday, which sets out the evidence base for Culture, Tourism, Europe and why Scotland’s needs are different from those of the rest of the UK. I hope that our response will be External Relations Committee helpful to the committee. As I highlighted in my response to the committee, as part of the Thursday 9 November 2017 commitment outlined in the Scottish Government’s programme for government, we will publish a [The Convener opened the meeting at 09:30] discussion paper setting out why it is vital to our economy to be able to attract talent from across Immigration Europe and the world; why current UK Government policy does not meet Scotland’s The Convener (Joan McAlpine): Good interests on this issue; and how a more flexible morning, and welcome to the 26th meeting in 2017 approach, with more power for Scotland on this of the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External issue, could operate. Relations Committee. I remind members and the I hope that that is a helpful introduction and, public to turn off mobile phones. Any members needless to say, I am very happy to answer your using electronic devices to access committee questions. papers during the meeting should ensure that they are switched to silent. Apologies have been The Convener: Thank you very much. As you received today from Lewis Macdonald, Tavish know, the committee published its own report on Scott and Jackson Carlaw. I welcome to the immigration and citizens’ rights after taking meeting Dean Lockhart, who is substituting for considerable evidence earlier this year. Some of Jackson Carlaw. that evidence certainly reflects what you are talking about, in terms of the skills gap and the Our first item of business is an evidence session contribution that immigrants make to our society. in the committee’s immigration inquiry with the Minister for International Development and Another overarching challenge facing Scotland Europe, Alasdair Allan. I thank the minister and his that our report highlighted was the difference officials for giving evidence today. Rachel between the working-age population and the Sunderland is the team leader of European Union number of older people if we do not have strategy and migration, and Angela Hallam is a immigration. Your submission to the MAC, on principal research officer with the Scottish page 26 of the evidence annex, says: Government. Would the minister like to make an “Scotland is projected to have the second largest opening statement? decrease (-1.5%) in the working age ... population across The Minister for International Development all government office regions between 2014 and 2024.” and Europe (Dr Alasdair Allan): Thank you. I will At the same time, the population aged over 65 is be brief. I am delighted to have the opportunity to expected to grow by 20 per cent. contribute to the committee’s inquiry on immigration. What kind of challenge does that pose to our public services, in that we have so many more As I think the committee will agree, Scotland is a people over working age, and the number of progressive and outward-looking country. We people paying taxes is predicted to decrease? recognise that migration strengthens our society and our nation benefits from the skills, experience Dr Allan: I preface what I will say by welcoming and expertise of those individuals who have the fact that we are, hopefully, likely to live longer chosen to work or study in Scotland. It has been in Scotland, as there is an increase in our life clear for some time that the one-size-fits-all expectancy. approach to immigration policy in the United However, you make a very fair point. In fact, the Kingdom will no longer be sustainable in the figures over the next 25 years are even more future, in the face of very different economic, pronounced. The expectation is that over the next demographic and social needs across the UK. I 25 years, the population aged over 75 will hope that we can continue to find some degree of increase by 79 per cent. That is to be welcomed, common ground across the parties on that issue in but the only way in which we are able to sustain Scotland. Therefore, the Scottish Government that situation in Scotland is by increasing the welcomes inquiries such as this that recognise the number of working-age people in our society. The potential need for regional variations in the projections for what would happen if we did not migration system to ensure that the system serves have people coming from other countries to live in Scotland’s needs. this country show that the number of people in the working-age population would go down by 3 per cent and our population overall would flatline. 3 9 NOVEMBER 2017 4 We have an ageing demographic but what is The Convener: There has been quite a lot of distinctive about Scotland's situation is that it is cross-party consensus on this issue in the past. much more pronounced than the situation for the The previous Labour Government introduced the rest of the UK. Over the next 10 or 25 years, the post-study work visa for Scotland, which became a reason why Scotland’s population will go up will UK-wide initiative, but was then abolished. It was be—100 per cent—because people will come from quite noteworthy that when the present other countries. In the UK overall the figure is 50 Government launched a pilot to bring back the per cent, but 100 per cent of the reason why our post-study work visa, Scotland was not included, population will go up is that people will come here despite cross-party consensus in asking for its from other countries. return. That was probably the only significant example of Scotland having differentiation in these The Convener: That is exactly what our report areas. Given that behaviour in the past, how likely showed as well: the crisis facing the country if we is it that you will be able to bring pressure to bear do not have a supply of migrants. Are there any for a differentiated system in Scotland? alternatives to new people coming? Dr Allan: I do not think that I have ever seen Dr Allan: We want to address the skills gaps in anything that attracted quite so much consensus the Scottish economy by skilling people up. We in Scotland as the post-study work visa did. Things seek to do that. We put a lot of effort as a society do not generally attract consensus in Scotland, but into making sure that there are educational and the university sector, businesses and the private training opportunities, and that jobs are filled. sector, the public sector and the political world, We have relatively high employment in Scotland across the political spectrum, all said the same and relatively low unemployment. There is not a thing. huge pool of people who can step in and take the The many efforts to reintroduce the post-study jobs that are currently filled by migrants. There are work visa to Scotland have all been rebuffed. many sectors—you will be more than familiar with Despite that, there is no doubt that the benefits them, because you named them in your own that the scheme provided to the university sector report—that simply could not fill, from some and wider society in Scotland were undeniable. mysterious source, the places that are currently We continue to make that argument and we have filled by migrants. very publicly expressed our disappointment that The Convener: Your document is a substantial none of the four universities in the UK that were contribution to the UK Government’s evidence chosen to take part in a pilot was in Scotland. gathering through the Migration Advisory Therefore, it is disappointing that so far the Committee. However, the MAC’s report, which the argument has not been heeded by the UK UK Government asked it to produce, will not come Government. out until next September, whereas an immigration Despite that list of criticisms of the UK bill will be published long before that. Realistically, Government, I want, nonetheless, to find common how will you influence UK Government policy if the ground within this Parliament to continue to make report that you are contributing to does not come the argument, in a positive way, for these things to out until next September? happen. The role of the committee in doing that is Dr Allan: That is a very interesting question, very helpful.