Vol. 187 Wednesday, No. 25 5 December 2007

DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SEANAD E´ IREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Wednesday, 5 December 2007.

Business of Seanad ………………………………1941 Order of Business …………………………………1941 Defamation Bill 2006: Committee Stage (resumed)……………………1957 Fifth Report of Committee of Selection: Motion ……………………1977 Defamation Bill 2006: Committee and Remaining Stages (resumed)………………1977 Budget Statement 2008: Statements …………………………2000 Visit of Former Member ………………………………2018 Budget Statement 2008: Statements (resumed)………………………2018 Visit of Former Member ………………………………2025 Budget Statement 2008: Statements (resumed)………………………2025 Adjournment Matters Care of the Elderly ………………………………2036 Job Creation …………………………………2039 1941 1942

SEANAD E´ IREANN Senator Frances Fitzgerald: Senator Quinn yes- terday sought a debate on Northern Ireland. ———— Members who watched the news in recent days will have been struck and impressed by the visit De´ Ce´adaoin, 5 Nollaig 2007. of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister to Wednesday, 5 December 2007. the USA, its success and the response to it. Senator Quinn’s call for a debate is appropriate. ———— In the course of that we should discuss the ongoing situation of the family of Paul Quinn and Chuaigh an Cathaoirleach i gceannas ar their call for support. A support group has been 10.30 a.m. formed but there are disturbing reports in the media today about how Paul was singled out, ———— attacked and died from his injuries. The Govern- ment should do what it can to support the family, Paidir. given the awful events that befell Paul. Prayer. I also raise the disturbing problem of drug abuse, especially cocaine abuse, and the sadness ———— caused to so many families recently. The Minister was in the House for a debate on the matter dur- Business of Seanad. ing this session but it would be appropriate to have another discussion, specifically on cocaine, An Cathaoirleach: I have notice from Senator given recent revelations and the glamorisation of Cecilia Keaveney that, on the motion for the the drug. We are witnessing the serious con- Adjournment of the House today, she proposes sequences of that. Perhaps the Leader would con- to raise the following matter: sider having such a debate at a later date. The need for the Minister for Health and Children to ensure a resource such as “Good Senator Joe O’Toole: There have been many Morning Inishowen” is adequately funded and emotional discussions and debates about the mer- rolled out regionally, given the simple but its of centralisation and decentralisation. In light important support it gives to elderly and vul- of the agreement of all parties on the merits of nerable people in their homes. decentralisation, it is unacceptable that there is a proposal before the Government at present to I have also received notice from Senator Alan close the marine rescue stations in Malin and Kelly of the following matter: Valentia. It is appalling that we should do this. The need for the Minister for Enterprise, It shows a lack of understanding of the needs of Trade and Employment to outline the actions seafarers. It is a classic ignorant east coast he is undertaking with the various agencies to approach to a western issue. Anyone who has bring about job creation in Thurles following come through Dursey Sound or the Blasket the closure of a succession of companies in the Sound knowing that the Valentia rescue centre is town over recent years. within sight will know what I mean. It is not just about technology or radar screens. It is about I regard the matters raised by the Senators as hundreds of years of lore. It is about people who suitable for discussion on the Adjournment and know the size of the swell two days after the they will be taken at the conclusion of business. waves have gone, who know the sounds of Sceilig Mhichı´l agus Sceilig Bheag and can tell one from Order of Business. the other. Senator Donie Cassidy: The Order of Business This action is appalling. It takes away from is No. 1, Defamation Bill 2006 — Committee these two places. I do not know whether people Stage, resumed, to be taken at the conclusion of know Malin Head and Valentia Island, but there the Order of Business and to adjourn not later is not a lot of work around and not much hap- than 2 p.m. if not previously concluded; and No. pening. The idea of taking away employment in 2, statements on the budget for 2008, to be taken those areas is unacceptable. at 6 p.m. and to conclude not later than 8 p.m. if This is an all-party issue. The Minister should not previously concluded, with the contributions be told it is just not on. It is wrong and flies in of spokespersons not to exceed ten minutes, the face of all we need. It was ironic that this hit those of other Senators not to exceed eight the news yesterday when Malin station had just minutes and on which Senators may share time. co-ordinated the rescue attempt for the Kennedy Business will be interrupted from 2 p.m. to 6 p.m. family in Inver in Donegal. The House should for the Budget Statement. take a clear line on this and indicate that the clos- ure is unacceptable. I would like the Minister to Senator Frances Fitzgerald: Will the Leader be come to the House and discuss this so that we moving the motion on Zimbabwe? may explain to him that this is about more than technology and data. There is also a cost issue. Senator Donie Cassidy: No, not this morning. The buildings and personnel are in place and any 1943 Order of 5 December 2007. Business 1944

[Senator Joe O’Toole.] Senator Dan Boyle: I support the call by upgrading required can be done while retaining Senator O’Toole for the Minister for Foreign both stations. Affairs to articulate to the House the Govern- To go from the local to the global, I wish to ment position on the continuing illegal captivity mention the plight of I´ngrid Betancourt, the of I´ngrid Betancourt, the leader of the Colombian French-Colombian citizen who has spent five and Green Oxygen Party and a former member of the a half years being held under torture, manacled, Colombian national assembly. Her situation has fettered and tied down by FARC guerillas in Col- some relevance to Ireland because the arguments ombia, who put themselves forward as supporters she was making in Colombia related not only to of human and civil rights. They are holding this the use of violence in the country’s political woman without access to books or hygiene facili- system but also to the drug culture which causes ties, keeping her tied up with a group of male subsistence farmers to resort to growing the coca captives and forcing her to sleep in a hammock plant, which is having an effect around the world in the open air. She is the leader of the Green and most perniciously in our country, as we have seen in recent weeks. These are added reasons to Oxygen Party in Colombia and has never done identify with her plight. As a country, we need to anything to aggravate any side of the conflict. She work towards attaining her freedom and ensuring has been imprisoned and held captive for one the people in Colombia who are forced to engage reason only: she has opposed violence and in a drug trade that causes difficulty throughout terrorism. the planet are given alternatives. We must move The House should take a clear line on this. I away from the United States-led war on drugs would like the Minister for Foreign Affairs to that has helped create this situation in countries ´ recognise that Ingrid Betancourt is an EU citizen such as Colombia in the first instance. and therefore we should make every possible attempt to have her released. It is extraordinary Senator Paul Coghlan: As Senator O’Toole and unfair. This is the type of thing that happened said, the closure of the rescue stations at Valentia in the worst days of the gulags in Russia. We and Malin would be a retrograde step. I have should put FARC in that context. referred to this. These are two long-established stations which have rendered sterling service to Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: Hear, hear. the State as marine rescue centres. They are fine buildings and the staff are in place. It would be Senator Alex White: I raise once again the easier to upgrade these than to build anything issue of immigration policy. The Minister of State new on the east or west coast. This was recom- with responsibility for integration, Deputy Conor mended, apparently, in a consultants’ report Lenihan, indicated yesterday it may be necessary some time ago. I do not know why the Govern- to introduce legislation annually to deal with the ment has ignored this. I join Senator O’Toole in issues of immigration and integration. I remain to pleading with the Government to reconsider this be convinced it would be necessary to introduce and stop the madness. legislation every year in any area of public policy, In view of the slowdown in the economy and notwithstanding that this is an area characterised the stagnant state of the housing market, I hope by change and development. The House might the Minister for Finance will take the opportunity need to be convinced that legislation is needed today to reform the current stamp duty regime. every year. The 9% rate of stamp duty is penal. We all know from our contacts throughout the land what is Could the Leader arrange for the Minister of happening. There is a pent-up demand in the State to come to the House to facilitate a debate housing market but it has become stagnant on the issue of immigration policy? Perhaps the because of the stamp duty rules. I hope the Mini- Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform ster will act today to bring life and stability back might indicate also to the House when it is to the market and restore some measure of intended to introduce the Immigration, Resi- confidence. dence and Protection Bill 2007 which was pub- lished earlier this year by the previous Govern- Senator Terry Leyden: I support the call by ment. It is important, as the Minister has Senators O’Toole and Boyle for action in the acknowledged on more than one occasion, that matter of the captivity of I´ngrid Betancourt. The this issue be debated fully in these Houses. Minister for Foreign Affairs should come to the The Minister of State has been hosting consul- House to explain the circumstances of the case so tation sessions with various interested parties, that we can lend our voice in support of the which is also important. At this stage, six months release of the captive. This is related to what on, however, he should be beginning to under- Senator Fitzgerald said about cocaine and the stand what the basic pillars of his policy are likely glamorisation of drugs in the media by certain to be. Surely it is time for him to come to the journalists. House and explain what he has in mind so that This leads me to my question to the Leader. we can debate these issues in the knowledge of What facilities do we have in the House to defend their importance for our society and economy. the integrity of Members from attacks in the 1945 Order of 5 December 2007. Business 1946 media? This morning on ”The Tubridy Show“, An Cathaoirleach: Senator Norris should con- for example, disparaging comments were made fine himself to the Order of Business. about the Leader by Eamon Dunphy and about Senator Harris by Nell McCafferty, who called Senator David Norris: Given that No. 13, the Seanad ”a tainted—— motion 2 in the names of the Independent Senators is concerned with the regrettable state An Cathaoirleach: We have no control over of many hostels in terms of health and safety, the content—— could Seanad E´ ireann take note of the report on safety and fire issues that has been discussed Senator Terry Leyden: We have. widely this morning? Some hostels have no fire escapes. I have repeatedly stated it is a tragedy An Cathaoirleach: We have no control over the waiting to happen. I welcome that there was some content of programmes. action, but it is not enough. I add my voice to those calling for the release Senator Alex White: I am sorry I missed that. of Ingrid Betancourt, a matter I raised previously. Such issues ebb and flow and I welcome the Senator Terry Leyden: I will make my point. occasion to raise the matter. She is an innocent, Will the Leader utilise the facilities of this decent and politically motivated woman. Apart House? The job of the public relations staff paid from anything else, the Interparliamentary Union by the House should be to represent and defend is committed to supporting parliamentarians in the integrity of Members. I do not believe the these types of difficult circumstances. We know title of Senator is a tainted title. that the people in question are moved around and sometimes tortured and killed. Ingrid Betancourt Senators: Hear, hear. has been in captivity illegally for a long time. I support Senator Alex White’s call for a Senator Terry Leyden: I do not believe we debate on immigration and integration. I feel receive tainted money. Many fought hard to be offended when I hear the prayer everyday, as it elected to this House to represent the people. I is absurd of the House to invoke the name of resent the likes of Nell McCafferty or Eamon Jesus Christ and state: “every word and work of Dunphy disparaging this House in radio prog- ours may always begin from thee and by thee be rammes. By the way, if anyone wishes to listen to the podcast of the programme, it has been cen- happily ended through Christ”. This is a farce. sored as a result of what occurred this morning. Did Jesus Christ instruct the Minister for Justice, The offending comments have been removed, as Equality and Law Reform to issue orders for the I found in the last half hour. deportation to Lagos of a 19 year old Nigerian girl without any means of support? Did Jesus Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: Hear, hear. Christ initiate and happily end the situation of the autistic boy who was similarly sent back to Nig- Senator David Norris: I have consulted my dis- eria? I voice my antagonism to the prayer, not tinguished colleague, Senator O’Toole. If the because I object to proper religious ritual — I am Defamation Bill goes through, Members who feel a regular churchgoer — but the House’s ritual is aggrieved about the comments on this morning’s empty in the absence of real meaning. radio programme can take a class action. We invoke the Christian notion in the Consti- tution, a legally valid concept. In a case I took, Senator Joe O’Toole: Under section 9. the Government argued successfully that I could not win because of the inclusion of the idea of Senator David Norris: Yes. However, I think it Christianity in the Constitution. Where was that is unlikely. I heard the programme, but was not notion when the rights of those young people particularly offended by it. It was not of great sig- were being systematically violated? It is extra- nificance. ordinary. I approve strongly the idea of prayer but not when it is mere empty ritual and formula. Senator Terry Leyden: The Senator is not eas- If we believe these things, let us implement ily offended. them properly.

Senator David Norris: One could not be if one An Cathaoirleach: The Senator’s point is made. was on this side and in this position at the back. Senator Labhra´sO´ Murchu´ : I wish to take up Senator Terry Leyden: We are sensitive over Senator Fitzgerald’s point on the abuse of drugs. here. There is no doubt about it being a malignancy, having reached serious proportions. Young lives Senator Paul Coghlan: So are we. are lost or harmed, in many instances beyond repair. It is important that the State focuses on Senator Terry Leyden: The Senator was not this issue. When the State was under threat in insulted. previous years, the Government called in sections 1947 Order of 5 December 2007. Business 1948

´ [Senator Labhra´sOMurchu´ .] than ever, we must consider in a global context of the media, for example, and briefed them on how best to correct this drain on society. the dangers. We need the relevant Ministers to engage in a Recently, I watched several television prog- joint debate on this serious issue. There was an rammes. Seeing celebrities glamorising drug-tak- example of the problem in Waterford two weeks ing in a flippant and subtle manner was ago and another example this week, but every disturbing. page of yesterday’s newspapers highlighted the issue of drug abuse in society. More than ever, Senator Joe O’Toole: Hear, hear. parents must play their role. Will the Leader open a full discussion on modern society and hold Senator Labhra´sO´ Murchu´ : It is a worrying it for a full day with a questions and answers situation for parents at home. They are at their session? We could ask the media for their wits’ end and communities are under siege. The opinions regarding why society has deteriorated. media must demonstrate responsibility. One of the reasons there is none is our lack of a focused Senator Michael McCarthy: I agree with approach. I request that there be discussions with Senators O’Toole and Coghlan regarding Valen- the media at Government level to point out how tia Island and Malin Head. Anyone living on the vulnerable and easily influenced by celebrities south-west seaboard is well aware of the tradition young people are. If the celebrities ever listen, we and legacy of the marine rescue station. In econ- should tell them that they have been particularly omic terms, 17 jobs on Valentia Island will be as lucky in life, blessed with talents and given excep- sorely felt there as the 500 job losses in Galway tional media exposure. They should demonstrate or any heavily urbanised centre. responsibility. This matter can be pushed under the carpet no Senator Joe O’Toole: Hear, hear. longer. It does not apply to a single section of society, as it occurs right across the board. We Senator Michael McCarthy: It would call into have all made calls, but they did not work. We question the roles of IDA Ireland and Enterprise need something more focused and fundamental. Ireland in promoting industry. I agree with Senator Fitzgerald in respect of Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: Since I stood in the growing problem of the cocaine epidemic. It the Chamber yesterday, the devastating news of is becoming socially acceptable to admit to snort- 500 job losses at Abbott Galway has been con- ing cocaine, but it ruins communities. Its most firmed. One of the factors involved is the axing recent victim passed away at 12.30 p.m. yesterday of the Shannon-Heathrow route by the Govern- in Waterford Regional Hospital. One can only ment. I ask that the Minister for Enterprise, imagine the torment and agony suffered by Trade and Employment intervene and work with members of the Doyle family when they switched IDA Ireland, Abbott Galway workers and off his life support machine. A young man in the Galway Chamber of Commerce to put a range spring of his years who had beaten cancer has of measures in place to address the job losses’ been lost to that drug. serious impact. We must bear in mind that when it is being This may just be the beginning of the result of snorted in Ballsbridge, etc., one is fuelling drug the axing. Shannon Airport provided connectivity lords, the scum of society who murder people to between the west and the rest of the world. The gain money and who do not care Government must be ready for such fallout and 11 o’clock about the consequences. In the have a range of measures in place. I ask the 1980s, politics was set aside to deal Leader to request that the Minister intervene and with subversives. Politics now needs to be set meet the workers, IDA Ireland and the Galway aside to deal with this problem. A cross-party and Chamber of Commerce. integrated approach is needed to deal with this growing epidemic in society. We must confront Senator Ann Ormonde: I support Senator Alex the drug barons and remove some of the agony White’s request for a debate on immigration with from those families grieving loved ones today. the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, as we would like to know the up-to-date position. Senator Ivor Callely: I support the calls on both I agree with Senator O´ Murchu´ ’s comments on sides for a debate on substance abuse and I look where society is going in terms of alcohol and forward to participating in it. drug abuse. The fundamental questions that must In different capacities in the past, I have be asked are why has society deteriorated to this clashed with the National Roads Authority on its extent and why is it occurring. Celebrities are policy and strategy. I am happy that I won on highlighted as examples for society, but fine two issues — central medians and petrol stations. people in our communities are trying to restore However, the NRA has decided not to proceed young people’s quality of life. The Departments with rest areas on motorways, an issue on which of Education and Science and Justice, Equality I thought I had won. and Law Reform must play a role and, while I Last weekend, a vehicle which had pulled into dislike the phrase, show joined up thinking. More the hard shoulder because of the lack of rest 1949 Order of 5 December 2007. Business 1950 areas was hit by a van and an innocent infant in Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: Senator the vehicle was killed. There are many other Leyden knows that very well. instances where people are not driving to their best because there is no safe haven in which to Senator John Hanafin: I welcome that we pray pull. Will the Leader find out the policy on rest every morning in the Chamber before conducting areas, particularly on motorways, from the our business. It allows us to renew our efforts to Department of Transport or the NRA? do our best and invoke God to assist us in our Regarding No. 32 on the Order Paper, last efforts. I note societies that turned their back on night the other House passed a motion on the God — fascist and communist — and relied solely situation in Zimbabwe and the forthcoming EU- on Man’s logic, rose and fell quickly. Africa summit in Lisbon. Many other democrac- The Shannon Airport issue was raised earlier. ies have passed similar motions. No. 32, a motion, It is incorrect to make any association with the will probably not be passed prior to the forth- closure of Abbott Laboratories and Shannon Air- coming EU-Africa Lisbon summit. Will the port. Much in all that I would like the Shannon- Heathrow route to remain open---- Leader consult with Opposition leaders to see if the motion can be passed without debate and Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: Has the then debated at a time when it can be fitted into Senator confirmation of that? the schedule? An Cathaoirleach: Senator Hanafin on the Senator Ivana Bacik: I support calls by Senator Order of Business. O’Toole and other Members for the release of ´ Ingrid Betancourt. I raised this as a matter on the Senator John Hanafin: The Shannon- Adjournment in this Seanad’s first week. The last Heathrow route cannot be blamed for everything. official statement of Government policy was the answer given to me then by the Minister for Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: The Shannon Foreign Affairs on Ireland’s calls for the release issue is the Government’s fault. of Ms Betancourt. There is a cross-party consen- sus for the Government to do more in supporting Senator John Hanafin: It is blamed for every- her release. A motion on this could be tabled thing, even down to the recent storm off the which would have the support of all Members. west coast. I attended an inspirational debate hosted by law students in Trinity College, Dublin, calling Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: Shannon is the for prison abolition. A passionate speech was Government’s fault and it will have to take the made by a leading British criminologist and fall-out for it. former prison governor, Professor David Wilson. He made the case for decarceration and the clos- An Cathaoirleach: Senator Hanafin without ing down of prisons for all but the very hard-core interruption. and dangerous offenders in society. Senator John Hanafin: I welcome the calls for Senator David Norris: Hear, hear. a debate on drugs and alcohol use which would be worthwhile. Sniffer dogs are used in prisons Senator Ivana Bacik: Will the Leader ask the to combat drugs being brought into them. Since Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform sniffer dogs were introduced in Wheatfield prison, there has been a 60% decrease in people for a debate on prisons policy? It is generally visiting. There has to be a direct correlation in overlooked as the cliche is that there are no votes this. That same sniffer dog had to leave Limerick in prisons. prison because there was a price on its head. People are locked up for long periods. Last night, three young mothers in Cork were locked (Interruptions). up for long sentences. The question never asked is what purpose does this serve? While the Mini- Senator Michael McCarthy: The Senator is ster is proceeding on the prison building prog- barking mad. ramme at Thornton Hall, left to him by his prede- cessor, it would be worthwhile for the House to Senator Jerry Buttimer: The dog probably have a debate on prisons policy and ask the Mini- votes Fianna Fa´il as well. ster what purpose is served by building more prison places and detaining people for long An Cathaoirleach: Senator Hanafin, on the periods. Real alternatives must be examined and Order of Business. locking up fine defaulters and those who are no harm to society must be stopped. Senator John Hanafin: The dog may not be aware of the price but the point is that positive Senator Terry Leyden: There are votes in action does work. prison. There is also the issue of alcohol abuse. 1951 Order of 5 December 2007. Business 1952

Senator Camillus Glynn: Hear, hear. ing steps against. However, we in Europe are tak- ing steps to discourage the growing of food. Senator John Hanafin: Will the Leader note Future generations will ask whether we were the opening hours of off-licences? It is wrong that interested in the ability to feed the world’s popu- many open at 9 a.m. and one can purchase a pal- lation if we in Europe refuse to sacrifice whatever let of drink from them. When positive action is benefits we get by discouraging the production of taken it works and more of it should be done. food to encourage set aside and to pay farmers not to grow crops. Senator Frances Fitzgerald: That is the Government’s fault too. Senator Camillus Glynn: It would be remiss of me not to speak about recent tragedies connected Senator Jerry Buttimer: What is the Govern- with drug-taking. In a previous life I was pro- ment going to do about it? fessionally involved with the kind of people who take drugs. People should remember that when Senator Geraldine Feeney: Wait for it. they buy drugs they deal with death and when they take them they dabble with death. Every- Senator Maurice Cummins: I support Senator body should open their ears to the plea from the Fitzgerald’s comments on the murder of Paul family of the young man who died in Waterford. Quinn. I have raised the matter on several There is no such thing as a good drug. Every drug occasions in the House. Will the Leader ask the has a downside. The worrying aspect of the drugs Taoiseach or the Minister for Foreign Affairs to scene is that new preparations are coming onto meet the Quinn family? Intimidation continues, the “market” and we have no notion of their even for the McCartney family. The Irish and components, which makes it all the more British Governments seem unwilling to accept worrying. the IRA, or its supporters, was involved in the I would like our spokesperson on fisheries, brutal murder of Paul Quinn. It seems to be Senator John Carty, to consult with the Leader peace at any cost. We all want the Good Friday and the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Agreement to prosper but not with peace at any Food to have a debate on the manner in which cost, which seems to be policy. I ask the Garda is the fish stocks in County Westmeath are being given all possible resources to bring these brutal denuded. There have been articles on this subject murderers to book as soon as possible. in two or three issues of the Westmeath Topic. The House recently had a debate on drug Local fishermen complain that the Royal Canal, policy but I call for another one in view of the the River Inny and several other small lakes and increasing problems with drug use, in particular rivers have been completely denuded of fish cocaine. In my city, Waterford, we have recently stocks. Everything is being taken out, even the seen the devastation caused by drugs. We must fingerlings and nothing is put back. Something take whatever measures we can. As Senator must be done about this because it is an outrage McCarthy has stated, this problem must be and a scandal. Westmeath is known as the lake treated in the same way as we dealt with crimi- county and has always attracted its fair share of nality in 1997 when CAB was formed. This prob- the angling fraternity, from home and abroad. lem must be faced down and the strongest pos- That, regrettably, is no longer the case. I request sible measures the State has must be used to a discussion on this matter in the House at the tackle the problem. earliest possible opportunity.

Senator Feargal Quinn: I thank Senator Senator Jerry Buttimer: I join those who have Fitzgerald for responding to my request for a asked the Leader to facilitate a further debate on debate on Northern Ireland. Yesterday, I spoke the drugs strategy. When he speaks to the Mini- on Northern Ireland on the Order of Business. I ster of State at the Department of Community, hope we do not regard it as a competitor for jobs Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs with responsibility because they are losing jobs in Derry as much as for this area, he might ask the national forum on we are in Galway. We must support and regard drugs to convene to gain the consensus on the Ireland as a united island and not regard issue which exists across the House. Northern Ireland as a competitor. There is a malaise in our society. More and The International Food Policy Research more people are looking for a temporary high. Institute has stated global agricultural production We must get the message out to the drug barons will be reduced by 16% in the next 12 years, and dealers who prey on the vulnerable that they which will make it harder for poorer people have no place in our society. Those who glamor- around the world to get enough food to eat. At ise drugs in the media miss the point that drug the same time, Europe is encouraging land to be dealers do not care about anything as long as they set aside and paying farmers not to grow food. In get their money. Will the Leader give this the future, people will look back at how we urgent attention? behaved in Europe at a time when there were The family of the poor man who died in Water- food shortages and people starved. It might per- ford this morning asked people “young and old haps be due to global warming which we are tak- who may be tempted to dabble in potentially 1953 Order of 5 December 2007. Business 1954 lethal substances to simply say No!” That is the vote will be on the register in plenty of time to most potent message we can send out. cast his or her vote in the next election.

Senator Joe O’Reilly: The crisis caused by Senator Donie Cassidy: Senator Fitzgerald and cocaine and substance abuse is extremely serious 14 others made a strong point about drug abuse. and pernicious, reaching into every community. I take their common sense proposals for meeting We need to debate a strategy to deal with this. the challenge seriously. The Government Young people need the confidence to say “No”. appointed Deputy Carey as Minister of State with There should be a drop-in centre for young special responsibility for this area. Drug abuse is people in every urban centre in the country, such increasing at an alarming rate. We send our con- as a cafe´ with discreet counselling services and dolences to the family of the young man who died an infrastructure for youth. The physical facilities in Waterford. Various tragedies that never before exist and the service could be achieved with a low happened in our society are happening now. capital outlay. This should be done as quickly as Everyone drove under the influence of drink possible. when the law did not inspire fear but random There should be a holistic programme, dealing breath testing has changed that. The same must with substance abuse, inside and outside schools. happen in respect of drug abuse. The law must There should be a junior Minister specifically inspire fear. There should be a mandatory prison responsible for substance abuse. sentence for someone caught with more drugs than allowed for personal use. That person Senators: There is. should go to prison for as long as possible to deter others from such activities. ´ Senator Joe O’Reilly: I concur with Senator O I listened to a broadcast on national radio this Murchu´ ’s remarks about celebrities and the morning and heard the evidence of those who run media. This is a national crisis which requires all- establishments responsibly some of whom I party agreement and the relevant Minister to know. I also heard the stewards who look after come to the House and harnessing all State agen- the venues saying what they must do in respect cies and taking a holistic approach. We must, of substances they find in the toilets and every- however, create a society in which young people where else in some establishments. It was an eye- can have the confidence to say no. That is the opener. This is the most serious challenge facing kernel of the solution. our society. I am pleased to hear that all parties are in unison on this matter and the Minister will Senator John Carty: I support Senator Glynn’s come to the House as early as possible to discuss call for a debate with the Minister of State at the the matter. Members know colleagues in parlia- Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, ments across Europe and might be aware of ideas with responsibility for fisheries, Deputy John that were successful. We should see where these Browne to come in to the House to discuss the ideas succeeded and implement best practice inland fisheries. It is a problem in Westmeath and many other parts of the country. I will take this where possible. up with the Leader and the Minister of State. Senators Fitzgerald, Quinn and many others asked for a debate on Northern Ireland. I gave a Senator Pearse Doherty: Will the Leader ask commitment in the House yesterday to have the the Minister for Education and Science to come Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot to the House, or to introduce a scheme to ensure Ahern, come to the Chamber in this regard and that primary schools are secure? In my county he has agreed. It is now a matter of finalising a four primary schools have been vandalised by date in his diary. I abhor the brutal murder of young thugs over the past 20 months. They burnt Paul Quinn. This type of activity cannot be con- one school to the ground, vandalised and stole doned in a civilised society. from the others. This is an attack not only on the Senators O’Toole, O´ Murchu´ and Norris schools but on the community. We must consider referred to decentralisation proposals concerning tougher security measures such as CCTV cameras Malin Head and Valentia Island. I support the outside the primary schools. I am sure this prob- calls made in the House on the Order of Business lem is not confined to Donegal but is replicated as the proposals relating to these landmarks, across the 26 Counties. given their strategic positions, defy logic. There I would like to have a debate on the electoral should be all-party agreement in this House to register. The closing date for submissions to the oppose this strenuously and I will ensure the new 2008-09 register fell last week. When it is Minister comes to the House for a debate on the published on 15 February it will once again be matter before the Christmas recess. inaccurate because we are not using enough resources to deal with the register in a proper, Senator Paul Coghlan: Hear, hear. planned, systematic way. I would like the relevant Minister to come to the House to address these Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: I thank the issues to ensure that everybody who is entitled to Leader. 1955 Order of 5 December 2007. Business 1956

Senator Donie Cassidy: Some Senators, led by will pass on his views to the chairman of the Road Senator O’Toole, expressed strong views on the Safety Authority, Gay Byrne, after the Order of long detention of the Green Oxygen Party leader Business. in Colombia and we join them in their call. I will I will see how I can progress No. 13, motion 22 not hesitate to seek agreement among the leaders with the leaders as I understand there is now an on this matter to see how this worthwhile pro- amendment to it. Senator Bacik called for a posal can be progressed as an act of humanity debate on prison policy and I already have given is sought. a commitment in this regard, depending on the Senators Alex White, Norris and Ormonde Minister’s availability. called for a debate on immigration and inte- Senators Norris and Hanafin have personal gration. I can contact the office of the Minister views on the prayer that is said at the start of for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy proceedings in the House. I believe the prayer is Brian Lenihan, after the Order of Business to see a good start to the day but I welcome any sugges- if this can take place. tions the Senators might have, which we could Senator Coghlan spoke of the slowdown in the consider at the Committee on Procedure and economy but I understand it has grown at a rate Privileges, CPP, on improving mindsets and hav- of 4.75% this year, which puts it in the top five in ing the Holy Spirit touch Senators in a stronger the world. This rate is twice that of most Euro- way than usual at certain times. pean countries, so the Irish economy is still a great success story. Senator Jerry Buttimer: Oh come Holy Spirit.

Senator Paul Coghlan: We just want to give a Senator Donie Cassidy: In the words of the lift to the stagnant housing market. former Senator Paudge Brennan, it is never the wrong time to do or say the right thing, so I await Senator Donie Cassidy: It is the responsibility Senators’ proposals in that regard. of positive thinking Senators such as Senator Senator Quinn referred to international food Coghlan, who have survived in this House for a policy and expressed strong views on the EU’s long time, to see that good news comes first. policy on set-aside schemes. The Minister can come to the House on this matter and I intend to Senator Jerry Buttimer: What about the propose to the CPP that we invite Commissioner budget deficit? Charlie McCreevy to come to the House in the next session. Senator Quinn’s proposals may Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: What about the allow us make our presence felt in this area. people at Abbott in Galway? Senator Carty, and Senator Glynn especially, Senator Donie Cassidy: Members can be cited declining fish stocks in the lake county of assured that this afternoon the caring Minister for Westmeath. This is part of Senator Carty’s port- Finance will look after senior citizens, as Fianna folio and I will contact the office of the Minister Fa´il always has done through the years. of State at the Department of Agriculture, Fish- eries and Food, Deputy John Browne, to arrange Senator Jerry Buttimer: What about cutbacks this debate. in community care packages? Senator Doherty called for a debate on edu- cation and expressed strong views on vandalism Senator Donie Cassidy: We never took 20% or in schools in the Donegal area. The proposal 25% from senior citizens on budget day as that regarding closed circuit television is worthy and, would have been against all we stood for. knowing the parish spirit in Ireland, could be I will pass Senator Norris’s views on fire safety adopted easily by a community. Linking it to a on to the Minister. Senator Leyden mentioned Garda station is the important part. I will pass on this morning’s “The Tubridy Show” and I take on the Senator’s views to the Minister. board his views. It is an entertainment show and The proposal made to the House on the elec- the two individuals involved are star performers. toral register is a serious one and I know many There is a major difference between a chat show of us are anxious to see it adopted as accurately and the serious business and responsibility of as possible. I will pass on the Senator’s views but passing new legislation and amending legislation. I am still of the opinion that postmen are the only Ireland plc has benefitted from the dedicated people who can do this properly. work of Da´il Deputies and Senators and no other Regarding the need for incorporating postmen country has experienced the success we have. All in this way, I spoke to a housing officer yesterday fair-minded people would agree they would love who told me a horrific story of a 62 year old man to be in the position we find ourselves today on living in appalling conditions. No one knew of budget day, 5 December 2007. this case but the postman who mentioned it to Senator Callely referred to the Road Safety the housing officer at a hurling match last week- Authority. I know he has a great deal of expertise end. When the matter was investigated, the in the area as a former Chairman of the Joint officials could not believe the conditions in which Committee on Enterprise and Small Business and the man was living in this day and age. Given the Minister of State. I agree with his sentiments and services provided by postmen and the postal 1957 Defamation Bill 2006: 5 December 2007. Committee Stage (Resumed) 1958 service, they should be encouraged to work more in Barrett v. Independent Newspapers Limited closely with the agencies of local government. that the assessment by a jury of damages for defa- Involving postmen in creating the electoral regis- mation has an “unusual and emphatic sanctity”. ter would be a great step forward in rural and This is an interesting point to bear in mind. urban areas. While I will not rehearse everything I said on this matter on a previous occasion, I draw the Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: I had a request Minister’s attention to a case that was then unre- regarding the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and ported, Independent News and Media plc and Employment, Deputy Michea´l Martin, interven- Independent Newspapers (Ireland) Limited v. ing on job losses at Abbott in Galway. Ireland, which was related to the case of De Rossa v. Independent Newspapers, in which the Senator Donie Cassidy: This matter is regret- defendants lost their case in Ireland and so sued table as Abbott has made an immeasurable con- in the European Court of Justice. This was the tribution to Ireland. Thousands of people in this argument made in Strasbourg in 2005 by the legal country are still employed by Abbott and will representatives of the State: remain so as the company has been in this coun- try for more than 60 years. Galway is a university The applicants were effectively asking the city with its own airport and a substantial pool of court to assume that jurors were unable to expertise. This matter concerns Enterprise value reputation in accordance with certain Ireland, IDA Ireland and its chief executive, Sean factors outlined to them in order to arrive at a Dorgan, and it is still before the Joint Committee rational and proportional decision without on Enterprise, Trade and Employment. I came further guidance. Not only was that an inap- directly from that committee to be in the House. propriate assumption but the calculation made I will pass on the Senator’s views to the Minister. by a jury attracted an even wider margin of I welcome the announcement by Baxter in Mayo appreciation than that completed by, for of the \75 million investment it will make in com- example, a judge. In this latter respect, they ing years in the western region. explained why framing and applying defa- mation laws in a modern democracy was a com- Order of Business agreed to. plex exercise requiring a delicate calibration of a variety of interests. The domestic authorities Defamation Bill 2006: Committee Stage were therefore clearly better placed to judge (Resumed). how the most appropriate balance could be struck in a given situation and, further, an auth- SECTION 12. ority comprising a group of informed, reason- able and conscientious citizens (a jury) would Question again proposed: ”That section 12 be best placed to reach that balance given their stand part of the Bill. direct and continuous contact with the realities Senator Jim Walsh: As I said yesterday, I of life within their countries. appreciate the Minister’s comments on lodg- I recount this to put on record the great signifi- ments. However, we should examine this further. cance attached by august legal authorities to what If an appeal is based on the substantive issue of has been described as the sanctity of juries. There defamation, the costs will accord with the was some suggestion yesterday that jurists are decision of the Supreme Court in this regard. mere Joe Soaps who could not be expected to Nobody can argue with that. However, an appeal know much. We must bear in mind that legal based only on the award of damages exposes the authorities do not take that view. This Govern- plaintiff, who has succeeded in vindicating his or ment, in its last incarnation, announced here the her good name, to a financial loss. doctrine of the continuity of the two Houses of Will the Minister consider before Report Stage the Oireachtas. One assumes the Minister will whether provision can be made whereby costs agree there is an unbroken seam between the last would not be borne by the plaintiff where the Government and its representation in Europe appeal relates only to the award of damages? If and this Government. necessary, this could be ameliorated such that the I am sure I will be allowed a flashback because costs would fall individually to the parties con- I am steaming with a cold. This flashback relates cerned and could not be claimed by one against to the question of feelings, as they are assessed in the other. I understand this would be an unusual damages. We have been told that feelings are not legislative provision. However, I am seriously of any consequence in this regard. I draw concerned that a person who vindicates his or her Members’ attention to the judgment of Henchy J. good name in court should incur significant costs in Barrett v. Independent Newspapers Limited. where the defendant, who has been found guilty, He stated: appeals the award granted. That is unfair. It is the duty of the judge to direct the jury Senator David Norris: On the issue of the that the damages must be confined to such Supreme Court second-guessing a jury, I refer to money as would fairly and reasonably compen- the words of the then Chief Justice, Mr. Finlay, sate the plaintiff for his injured feelings and for 1959 Defamation Bill 2006: 5 December 2007. Committee Stage (Resumed) 1960

[Senator David Norris.] When I chaired the Joint Committee on the any diminution of his standing among right Constitution, we reviewed the area of libel and thinking people as a result of the words com- slander under the Constitution. Of all European plained of. countries we would be seen as one of the more conservative nations, with our awards in general The learned judge, Mr. Justice Henchy, placed being much higher than others in Europe. At the feelings first. The question of feelings is relevant, higher echelons of our European courts, the area therefore, despite what was said here yesterday of libel and defamation, which this Bill tends to by learned and august barrack room lawyers such as Senator O’Toole and others whose blushes I marry, is treated far more liberally and is less will spare, although I am sure they will not spare kind to the person instigating the action. This is mine as they seek to correct me. Although they particularly relevant to politicians because, irres- can be glossed any way one likes, these are the pective of whether we like it, politicians have had learned words of Mr. Justice Henchy to whom, a stand-off with journalists, especially over the for his reasonable, decent and humane dissenting past 20 years, in terms of there being a shift this judgment in my own case, I shall be forever way or that. grateful. If we were to be honest, we would like the cur- rent system retained. On the other side there is a Senator Denis O’Donovan: I was lost in the hue and cry by the print media and journalists in wonderful outlinings of my colleague, Senator general that our awards and old defamation and Norris. He has distracted me from my train of libel laws have been far too generous to the thought and diverted me in another direction. plaintiff. Will the Minister clarify the issue of costs? Senator Walsh gave the example of a successful Senator David Norris: I support Senators plaintiff who subsequently incurs the costs of an Walsh and Donovan on a point, to be fair, which appeal by the defendant on the basis of the award was raised by the Minister. It appears wrong that granted. In the event of the Supreme Court grant- if a person gets an award and appeals it, he or she ing \80,000 rather than \100.000, for instance, the may be seriously penalised despite having won in person who has been defamed would be penal- the first case. The example from the figures given ised on costs. by my two colleagues was very persuasive. The National Union of Journalists, RTE and The notion of lodging money into court intro- other elements of the media have made the point duces a slightly indecent element of gambling. ad nauseam that the costs incurred in libel and The courts are hoping to get it right but they may slander cases are so severe that they far outweigh wrong-foot the plaintiff by so doing. A very any award granted. Even where a relatively minor astute adviser on one side may indicate a certain reduction of the figure awarded is ordered on award will be received, but if it is dropped slightly appeal, the cost of that appeal is levied entirely the other side may be punished by attacking their against the unfortunate litigant who has already matter of cost. proved that he or she has been defamed. This is a cause for concern. A case heard in the Supreme Senator Alex White: The plaintiffs have astute Court for seven or ten days, with senior and jun- advisers also. ior counsel, could involve legal costs of \500,000. A plaintiff whose award has been reduced from Senator David Norris: Yes, but they do not \100,000 to \50,000 thus would incur a net loss. always have the best. There is no question that On the question of libel and defamation, have the newspapers can always afford the best. There our parallels in Europe been considered with the is a disproportion there. thrust of this Bill? My knowledge of libel and slander is that mainland Europe has a far more Senator Alex White: Absolutely not in liberal approach, even in the European courts at defamation. Strasbourg. There was an interesting case involv- ing a politician in Austria, I believe, who was very Senator David Norris: I am surprised a member fond and proud of his reputation. He was taken of the Labour Party would support multinational to task by a particular newspaper on a few corporations in the way the Senator has. instances and he sued the publication. I am not entirely sure if this happened in Austria or Senator Alex White: That is untrue. Germany. The politician lost the case and appealed it to the European courts. Senator David Norris: Socialism is changing There appears to be a number of precedents in and I know there is a middle way and a new European courts where the court has taken a lib- Labour. eral view, particularly when a politician is involved. The courts appear to deem that if a per- Senator Alex White: That is silly. son is in the public eye running for office, or suc- ceeds in becoming a Minister, that person is fair Senator David Norris: I am on the side of the game. small person in this. 1961 Defamation Bill 2006: 5 December 2007. Committee Stage (Resumed) 1962

Senator Denis O’Donovan: The Taoiseach is a member of the Labour Party. I am perfectly free socialist. to make the argument in the context I make it. I will not fly off the handle as other people seem Senator David Norris: They must be defended. to do at the least suggestion in here but I take I welcome Senator O’Donovan’s honesty in exception to the coupling of the argument I am saying what we all know, that this Bill is a result making, in the context of freedom of expression, of intensive lobbying by media interest and the with the notion of the big bad press barons. I am press barons. The politicians, by and large, have very critical of those as well. strong and serious reservations about it. I hope the Minister will be in a position to take on board Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform at least some of the amendments put before the (Deputy Brian Lenihan): We have had a very House today. wide-ranging debate on this section and it has afforded Senators an opportunity for a quasi- Senator Alex White: I was going to address the Second Stage debate. I will add my tuppence last issue later as it is perhaps a bit more relevant worth. to other sections but as the point has been again On the net issue of the section, I have indicated made by Senator Norris, I will address it. to Senators that I am anxious to reconsider the In the context of dealing with defamation law, section in terms of its consequence for an order the fact that the newspaper industry has pressed for costs in the Supreme Court. That issue should for change and some of the changes included in be examined. It is desirable that we have a section this Bill may be welcomed by the industry does confirming the appellate powers of the Supreme not of itself suggest we should oppose them. If I Court in this area. have a view on a matter, the fact that somebody It is also important that if the Supreme Court else, whom I dislike or even detest, holds the is to substitute a verdict for the verdict of the jury same view does not undermine the strength of in the High Court — a power it has and which we my opinion. are confirming in the legislation — there should Senator Norris is going a little over the top or not be serious implications for costs for a plaintiff is at least missing the point when we talk about who has succeeded in the High Court action. I am freedom of expression and freedom of the press. prepared to review the matter on Report Stage. This is not just something going to the pockets of On the wider matters raised, Senator Norris the press barons. It may, of course, because it referred to judicial authorities in connection with suits them. I am more interested in access of the the jury and the central function of the jury in public to the maximum amount of information, our law of defamation. I stated yesterday that the free comment and debate in a modern democratic Supreme Court has confirmed that the jury is an society. The fact that the newspaper industry is also on that side of the argument should not push appropriate constitutional tribunal for vindicating us off our perch. With respect, Senator Norris is the reputation of the citizen, and that is not an confusing two different things. issue in the legislation. The right of a citizen in Ireland to have his or her reputation vindicated Senator David Norris: I have experienced a before a jury is carefully protected and preserved gross obfuscation of my views. It should be a les- in this legislation. son to us all. That a jury verdict can be appealed to the Supreme Court is also a well-established feature Senator Alex White: I would be perfectly of our legal system and it is not proposed to happy to have a debate on the newspaper indus- change this. The courts and the Supreme Court try but it seems the most serious issue in that area have tended to view the verdicts of juries with is the proliferation of ownership and control great respect and Senator Norris quoted an auth- among a small number of people, whether it is ority to that effect. The courts and the Supreme the O’Reillys or anybody else. A small number Court have tended to view the verdicts of juries of people nationally, and increasingly inter- with great respect and Senator Norris—Iwas nationally, control the newspapers and media. going to say Judge Norris — quoted an authority Governments clearly must intervene in that to that effect, which is as it should be. He also regard to ensure we have real freedom of the referred to judgments regarding the question of press and get away from the concentration of feelings. The point I made about feelings is that ownership among a small number of people. they are not the gist of the action. It is not pos- I regard freedom of expression as precious, and sible to sue for hurt feelings in our law — it is to throw out this in the wide latitude that ought possible in some other legal systems. It is neces- to be given to debate on public issues—— sary to establish an element of falsity or rather the newspaper must disprove the falsity of the Senator David Norris: I hope the Senator is not statement on which the plaintiff is suing. using it there as well. Senator David Norris: I understand other Senator Alex White: ——does not line me up speakers discounted the notion of feelings with press barons, irrespective of whether I am a altogether. 1963 Defamation Bill 2006: 5 December 2007. Committee Stage (Resumed) 1964

Deputy Brian Lenihan: Once someone estab- thing that promotes a culture of greater responsi- lishes that he or she has been defamed, of course bility in writing in media organisations is to be feelings come into the equation in the assessment encouraged. This legislation is a substantial step of damages as Senator Norris outlined very well. in that direction. The Senator questioned whether we should have lodgements. Lodgements are a well-estab- Senator David Norris: This point goes to the lished part of our civil litigation system for the matter of the press council. The Minister raised obvious reason that they discourage litigation. the matter of apology. A few years ago, The Sun Litigation is very expensive for the State, which newspaper was admonished very strongly by the has an interest in this matter along with the par- British Press Complaints Commission for pub- ties. The State provides machinery for the adjudi- lishing particular photographs of Princess Diana. cation of civil disputes, which is the courts system. The Sun dutifully published the PCC’s judgment Equally the State has an interest in discouraging and then republished the offending pictures parties from recourse to civil proceedings that are under the heading “This is what all the fuss was heard at full length, which is done through the about, folks”. That effectively undermined the lodgement system. The whole purpose of the Press Complaints Commission. It depends on the lodgement system is to encourage individuals to quality of the apology, its sincerity and the pro- settle their claims. The view is taken, to which I minence it is given. I understand that matter is subscribe, that it is in the public interest to qui- addressed later in the Bill. I know the Minister is eten claims and settle matters in so far as they sympathetic on this issue. Apologies can be given can be settled. We are always outlining how tongue in cheek and in such a manner that the undesirable it is for matrimonial proceedings to newspaper gets a second strike at its victim. go their full distance and how desirable it is for parties to settle their unhappy differences before Deputy Brian Lenihan: We will be able to they enter the courtroom. However, that applies revisit apologies. to most disputes. The State provides a lodgement system to encourage individuals to settle their dis- Question put and agreed to. putes. A lodgement system needs to be a central feature of defamation law in our system. Section 13 agreed to, Senator O’Donovan referred to the level of SECTION 14. award for damages. In the continental juris- dictions the levels of awards for damages are Question proposed: “That section 14 stand part lower than they are in common law jurisdictions. of the Bill.” We have used the examples and experiences of other common law jurisdictions in deciding how Senator David Norris: This section relates to to reform the law here. That brings me to Senator the reliance on a defence of truth. I made a point Alex White’s general reflections on how we during the Second Stage debate and I regret that should reform our defamation laws. In this area I did not table an amendment. I wish to signal we are dealing with powerful media organisations that I will table such an amendment on Report irrespective of whether their ownership is concen- Stage. Truth is the very best defence because trated or diffuse. They are powerful organisations nobody could possibly object to newspapers pub- and can command substantial legal expertise. lishing truth however painful it might be for the There has never been a shortage of intrepid and person embarrassed or inconvenienced by that able lawyers willing to take them on. They are truth. The person against whom the allegations very powerful organisations that cannot be have been made in a newspaper should be allowed to dominate debate on a subject like this. entitled at a relatively early stage through his or As the class of potential plaintiffs has no equiv- her legal representatives to know the basis upon alent lobby group, it is important that careful which that claim of truth is being made. On scrutiny be given to this legislation. Report Stage I will table an amendment along the That is why governments in most common law following lines: “Where the defendant relies upon countries have embarked on an extensive period truth as a defence he or she should be obliged in of consultation, discussion and report before pro- the pleadings contained in the defence to set out ceeding to houses of parliament in this area. That the facts upon which he or she will rely in the has been the experience in the United Kingdom defence”. That would give the plaintiff the oppor- and has also been the process in this jurisdiction. tunity to examine it, rather like the notice for The Bill did not fall out of the sky from the head- further and better particulars, etc. If an appalling quarters of some powerful media organisation. claim is made about somebody and the defendant Considerable work was done by the Law Reform relies on the defence of truth, it is only fair that Commission and the Mohan committee. This the other side should get the opportunity to issue was considered in great detail. The argu- examine it in order to prepare for proper cross- ments on each issue were assessed. My philos- examination in the process. ophy on this legislation is that anything we can do to encourage the media organisations to Senator Denis O’Donovan: I accept what the apologise more readily is to be welcomed. Any- Minister said earlier that the Bill did not fall out 1965 Defamation Bill 2006: 5 December 2007. Committee Stage (Resumed) 1966 of the sky or originate as a result of a consider- expression of truth there as this is at the heart of able media lobby. There has been considerable our defamation system. We put truth at a pre- thought by successive Governments and the Law mium and those who utter falsehoods pay for Reform Commission. The Minister also men- them. tioned Mr. Mohan’s input on the matter. We are enlarging on the old phrase, “justification”. I may Question put and agreed to. be wrong in this. However, my perception is that to prove something beyond yea or nay, the bur- SECTION 15. den of proof is much stronger to prove something is true before a judge and jury. Is there a raison Senator David Norris: I move amendment d’eˆtre for using the word “truth”, as I would have No. 3: felt the old defence of justification was quite In page 12, subsection (2), lines 3 and 4, to acceptable? I saw no great desire by any lobby to delete paragraph (f). use the word “truth”. While I may be getting this wrong, I feel the use of the term “truth” raises I oppose the inclusion of judges in the exemption the bar. It is much stronger to establish truth from defamation. The Minister has strengthened rather than justification in a court of law, my feeling on this matter when he talked about especially before a jury. truth. Why would a judge want to lie about any- Certain justifications can be claimed. I was at a body? Judges should not make outrageous or meeting the other night at which I was told “Sure untrue comments about anybody. After all, a you’re all on the take and looking for more judge should know better than anybody else the money”, which is a general percep- primacy of truth and the reason for telling it. In 12 o’clock tion. However, the truth is that 95% vigorous argument between the combatants in a or 98% of politicians are decent, court case or in a robust debate in this or the honest and hard-working people. Justification other House, I can understand it and there is an and truth are at different levels. We are raising argument for protecting people by absolute privi- the bar. I ask the Minister to explain why he is lege. Will the Minister explain why a judge would making this change. While I may be missing the wish to libel somebody? What part of a judicial point, I feel there will be a far greater onus on function is it to libel the ordinary citizen? A libel the defence to establish that something was true by a judge on a citizen in the course of a judgment beyond yea or nay. Justification seems to be eas- which is protected is far more damaging. ier to establish from a court perspective. Some people are of the opinion there should be a clear definition of defamation at the begin- Deputy Brian Lenihan: If Senator Norris tables ning of the Bill. It is defined in section 5(2) as: an amendment on the question of what a defend- . . . the publication, by any means, of a ant should plead, naturally I will examine it. defamatory statement concerning a person to However, this Bill already requires that a defend- one or more than one person (other than the ant must swear a verifying affidavit on the first-mentioned person)... defence filed and the defence will have to be veri- fied on oath. This is a substantial change in the Why would judges wish to do this? I know it is a existing law. practice and the Minister probably is aware it is a practice. I am sure the Minister can remember On the point made by Senator O’Donovan, back — I certainly can — to the days when Nell section 14(1) is a restatement of the existing law McCafferty was writing In the Eyes of the Law . and section 14(2) is a restatement of an existing A number of judges routinely and for the pur- statutory provision. There is no new law in poses of entertaining and diverting the audience section 14; there is no change of substance but in the court made the most appalling comments there is a change of wording. The defence of justi- about people which if made outside a court prob- fication, as Senator O’Donovan rightly said, is ably would be libellous. We are just reciting a being renamed the defence of truth but they have whole list of establishment figures who have to been the same in substance for more than 100 be protected. I do not see any reason to license years. the Judiciary to lie about the citizenry. The Law Reform Commission pointed out that originally the word “justification” was used to Senator Alex White: I support this section and describe all the defences available in a defa- disagree with Senator Norris. I do not think it is mation action. The defences of qualified privilege a licence for judges to defame people. I ask the and fair comment were then developed and the Minister to confirm this but my understanding of term “justification” was restricted to the plea of this protection — if it can be called such — is truth. Subsection 14(1) will make the substance practically ancient. Authority for this proposition of the law the form of the law in providing that goes back at least 400 years—— the defence is a defence of truth. With regard to Senator O’Donovan’s point, I am not sure if it Senator David Norris: I disagree. makes any difference on the substance of the law but it does mean the law is clearer and more intel- Senator Alex White: It certainly goes back to ligible. For that reason it is desirable to have the the early 17th century. The principle is a very 1967 Defamation Bill 2006: 5 December 2007. Committee Stage (Resumed) 1968

[Senator Alex White.] certain a similar provision exists in that Act. It is good one. I suggest if Senator Norris reflects on our law, as I understand it, that judges cannot be it, a good analogy is the protection afforded to us sued for defamation in the exercise of their in this Chamber. We have a responsibility in this judicial function. They are not protected when House to debate public issues, to deal with the they step down from the Bench and start, willy- cut and thrust of those issues. There have been nilly, to gratuitously defame or attack people. occasions when — I will not say Senator Norris They ought to be protected when they are carry- — some of our colleagues over the years may ing out their functions. have been tempted to engage in very robust I have other issues to speak about on the same analysis and debate of issues and of the conduct section of the Bill. of individuals. They have speculated on individ- uals and their actions and on what they ought to Senator Jim Walsh: Like Senator White, I will have done. This Chamber affords a protection for refer to other examples in the section when they both Senator Norris and me and other Members. arise.Speaking on amendment No. 3, I fail to We are not exposed to being sued for libel in cir- understand how a judge can be prevented from cumstances where we stray into that area, albeit commenting on a case which is then reported. one hopes, on rare occasions. In other circum- Because of the nature of the people who come stances we could end up in the High Court being before the courts, judges will often comment in sued for defamation. There is a very good reason very derogatory terms about the criminal activi- for that protection and if Senator Norris reflected ties of some of those people. It is right they on it, he would see it is right he has that protec- should comment and that these comments should tion in this House. It is not a protection that be reported. should be abused but it is right that Senator I agree with the sentiments expressed by Norris has that protection. Senator Norris. There are many examples, in The same applies in regard to the exercise of a particular at District Court level, of judges who judicial function. The independence of a judge is exceed what is fair and reasonable. While I vitally important to the conduct of his or her appreciate the views expressed by Senator White, duties. Judges must be fully and entirely indepen- if we step over the line in this House, the Leas- dent in the exercise of their important job. If they Chathaoirleach will call us to account if we are to have a concern or a fear that they may be breach our privilege. However, a judge is master sued for defamation in respect of remarks they of his own comments in his own house. might make — these are sometimes very intem- While I fail to see how Members can deal with perate and I have criticised in this House remarks this issue in this Bill, I have long been an advo- made by District Court judges — this would risk cate of accountability for judges. undermining the important independence of their function. Judges should be able to administer Senator David Norris: Hear, hear. justice in a free, impartial and independent way. I suggest to Senator Norris it is quite wrong to Senator Jim Walsh: There should be a judicial interpret this section as being a protection for a commission and were such a commission com- member of the establishment — that we are sin- prised exclusively of judges, I would have no gling out individual members of the establish- objection. I refer to instances in which judges step ment and giving them protection that is not given out of line, of which there have been examples. to other people. The issue is to do with the func- The Oireachtas has conducted inquiries to deal tion they exercise for the community and for with such issues and such inquiries should have society. We as a community believe it important had a structure other than the cumbersome that judges have full independence in the carrying model under which my colleague, Senator out of that function. This is for the protection of O’Donovan, was obliged to labour in one the community rather than it being a licence for instance. It was a very difficult task. There should individual members of the Bench to say whatever be a mechanism for dealing with this issue. When they want about whoever they want at any time. judges breach the privileges they enjoy, account- Senator Norris is under a misconception of what ability to their peers should be an important com- is at stake. A very important principle is at stake ponent of the structures incorporated in the and it is the same principle that applies in this judicial system. House and in the other House in the protection of persons. Those of us engaging in public debate Senator Eugene Regan: I agree this provision is in the House can at times stray into areas that required. In the next paragraph, section 15(2)(g), could expose us to suit, even without knowing it; privilege also attaches where a witness or a legal we could defame somebody. representative or a juror makes a statement. It would undermine the effectiveness and the Consequently it would be entirely incongruous to important independence of the role of the exclude a judge performing his or her judicial Judiciary if this section of the Bill were to be functions from the protection of the privilege changed. Senator Norris’s proposal would consti- afforded in the Bill. tute a change. I do not have before me the part- Under this section I also wish to ask icular provision of the 1961 Act but I am almost whether—— 1969 Defamation Bill 2006: 5 December 2007. Committee Stage (Resumed) 1970

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Members should dis- While I am happy to withdraw the amendment, if cuss only amendment No. 3 at present. the Minister responds he should indicate whether he agrees with his colleagues on the Government Senator Eugene Regan: Very well. side. I refer to the necessity for some form of regulation in the circumstances that have been Senator Denis O’Donovan: I understand the suggested, that is, if a judge makes plainly reason Senator Norris tabled this amendment. In defamatory remarks that turn out to be unsub- effect he asks for the removal of all protection stantiated and damaging to someone who is from the Judiciary, which would be similar to tak- found innocent. This is inappropriate and it is a ing a sledgehammer to crack a nut. However, I question of regulating behaviour. can see where he is coming from. I refer to the I agree that I took deliberately a sledgehammer court case yesterday involving three ladies who to crack the nut. However, if the nut gets cracked were taking drugs back to County Cork and who by the mild blow of a nutcracker forged skilfully went astray. The judge made certain remarks I by the Minister, I will be perfectly happy. considered to be highly appropriate. The amend- ment would place a severe curtailment on the Deputy Brian Lenihan: First, for the reasons Judiciary and would not achieve the correct outlined by all the Senators and accepted by result. It is common practice in all courts and in Senator Norris, the effective operation of the the District Court in particular for judges to tell judicial power in the State requires that absolute a young brat who comes in with cock and bull privilege should attach to the statements made by story that he is lying through his teeth. As this is the Judiciary in court. Members of the Oireachtas quite common, where would one stop? enjoy such privilege and it is absolute in charac- Senator Walsh touched on a very important ter. While Members also have a committee that point and while I do not wish to stray from it, I regulates the abuse of that privilege, from a con- consider the establishment of a judicial council or stitutional point of view it is clear that if Members commission to be a necessity in future. Although enjoy this privilege for their effective operation, a former colleague and previous Minister prom- a co-ordinate branch of government, namely, the ised it some years ago, it has not arrived yet. judicial power also should have that privilege. Hopefully, like this Bill, it has been cooking for a Moreover, apart from the question of equality, long time and that when the time comes, like a there are far more practical reasons that one must Christmas cake, Members will get the mix right. have such a privilege attaching to statements In my experience of approximately 30 years of made in court, which have been outlined by dealing with judges and so on, our Judiciary and Members in the course of their contributions. judicial system has served the country well since Another reason becomes obvious when one the foundation of the State. While there are considers the list of those to whom absolute privi- exceptions, by and large we have some excellent lege attaches. It attaches not only to statements judges and to remove section 15(2)(f) from the made by judges or other persons performing a Bill would do far more harm and damage to the judicial function, but also to statements made by necessary defences than it would achieve. Conse- a party, a witness, a legal representative or a juror quently, Members must be extremely careful. I in the course of proceedings presided over by a support section 15 in general and section 15(2)(f) judge or other person performing a judicial func- in particular. tion. The reason for this is that in addition to being essential for the effective operation of the Senator David Norris: While I will be happy to particular institution, the State has an interest in withdraw the amendment, I am glad I tabled it preventing further litigation about litigation. because it has teased out a number of issues. I Were one not to have an absolute privilege greatly welcome Senator Walsh’s comments that attaching to court proceedings, one would have were supported by Senator O’Donovan. I agree fresh actions stemming from disputes that were that one must protect the independence of the already resolved in the original action, in which Judiciary. However, one of the instances given points of fact were at issue. This would be a disas- was very interesting. If, for example, a judge in trous inconvenience for the State and constitutes his or her court told someone, who was what the other reason for attaching absolute privilege Senator O’Donovan referred to as a little brat, in this regard. that he was lying through his teeth, this would get However, the sentiment that motivated the a headline. However, were that person to be tabling of this amendment concerned the issue of found innocent the next day, damage would have judicial conduct and misconduct. While this is an been done. This is the kind of point I was making. area in which Members must respect the indepen- While I did not expect this amendment to be dence of the courts, I can state that the Govern- accepted, I wanted to draw such a case to the ment is committed to a judicial council Bill that attention of the House. will provide for the regulation of judicial conduct. This strengthens the call made from the Of necessity, a great deal of such regulation must Government side for the establishment of a form be self-regulation. However, there is a strong case of regulatory or overseeing body. I also accept for collective self-regulation in this area and this Senator Alex White’s comments in this regard. is in accordance with the Constitution. I am 1971 Defamation Bill 2006: 5 December 2007. Committee Stage (Resumed) 1972

[Deputy Brian Lenihan.] for certainty that absolute privilege will attach to aware that Senator O’Donovan explored the the reporting of family law cases. Section 40 of outer limits of the constitutional provisions that the Civil Liability and Courts Act 2004 provided we posses in this regard. for a relaxation of the in camera rule, with the key safeguard that the confidential nature of Senator Joe O’Toole: However, his work was family law cases would continue to be respected. ignored. It is still sitting there. Section 40(3) specifically provides that nothing in any enactment can prohibit the preparation of a Deputy Brian Lenihan: It is fair to say that his report of proceedings in family law cases on the work came to a conclusion. One of the difficulties publication of the decision of the court in those associated with spelling out in greater detail in proceedings. The identities must not be disclosed. the Constitution how one removes a judge is that That is a safeguard of great importance. Reports it makes it easier to so do, thereby undermining under section 40(3) of the Act do not attract the independence of the institution. However, absolute privilege at present and it is important there was a full exploration in the last Da´il as to to clarify the law in that regard. how one would go about such an enterprise. As Senator White inquired as to whether the pro- for the judicial council Bill, I am anxious to make visions in section 15 are new. They are new; they progress in this regard and I await the views of were not contained in the 1961 Act. This is a codi- the Chief Justice on this Bill. fication of the law on absolute privilege. For example, the absolute privilege enjoyed by a Senator Joe O’Toole: Hear, hear. judge in judicial proceedings was something that rested in common law rather than in statute. In Deputy Brian Lenihan: When I have those this section we are providing an exhaustive list of views to hand, I will introduce legislation on it. the circumstances in which absolute privilege can Senator Norris makes a fair point. While I do not be claimed. Having examined various issues, this wish to be seen to criticise the Judiciary as I am amendment was tabled to cover that point. the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, it is important that utterances from the Senator Alex White: That serves as an intro- judicial bench do not damage people in their duction for the comment I wish to make on the reputations. I recall that a wise District Court balance of the section. As the Minister stated, it judge, who has now retired, told me that on his looks like an exhaustive list of circumstances appointment, the first thing he taught himself to which will be covered by absolute privilege. This do was simply to read the statute, read the pen- is something new to our statute law. As lawyers alty prescribed by the Oireachtas and read it out would acknowledge, the very fact that it is a to the guilty party when imposing sentence with- detailed list would give rise to a serious concern out making any other comments whatsoever about matters which do not appear in it. If they regarding the imposition of sentence. It is a wise are not in such a detailed list, it would be clearly rule. seen to be our intention to have excluded them. I await the views of the Chief Justice in this In those circumstances I wish to raise two issues regard. While I understand the reason Senator with the Minister and I am interested in his view Norris raised the issue, it cannot be dealt with in on them. this Bill. It is a matter for a separate item of Reference is made to courts, and it is quite legislation. proper that this is the case because, as we have already discussed, that is one of the fundamental Senator Denis O’Donovan: I wish all judges areas that it is sought to protect. However, what had that rule. is the position with quasi-judicial tribunals? I have a professional background in this area. In Senator David Norris: I thank the Minister for the previous debate speakers repeatedly pointed his undertaking and his understanding of what I to worries about conflict. I do not have a conflict was getting at and I am happy to withdraw it. but I should point out that I do practise in the area of employment tribunals and have some Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. familiarity with them. These are quasi-judicial tri- bunals set up under statute. Did the Minister con- Government amendment No. 4: sider whether privilege ought to attach to the pro- In page 12, subsection (2), between lines 15 ceedings of these tribunals? I refer to the and 16, to insert the following: Employment Appeals Tribunal, the equality tri- bunals, and perhaps the Labour Court. I am “(j) a fair and accurate report of pro- interested in whether the Minister addressed this ceedings to which a relevant enactment issue and if so, why it was determined not to referred to in section 40 of the Civil Liability include them? and Courts Act 2004 applies;”. The second area relates to local authority meetings. Did the Minister consider whether Deputy Brian Lenihan: The purpose of this privilege ought to attach to the proceedings of proposed amendment to section 15 is to provide meetings of local authorities? I am sure he did 1973 Defamation Bill 2006: 5 December 2007. Committee Stage (Resumed) 1974 address the matter. What was his rationale for the will not talk about the obvious. I opposed this conclusion that they ought not to be granted the measure vehemently. It was a tautology, to say protection of absolute privilege? the least, and completely unnecessary that some- thing which is a constitutional right was being Senator Eugene Regan: Senator White raised given a statutory basis. Why do we need a statu- the issue I wish to raise, namely, privilege for tory basis for something which is constitutionally local authority meetings. In carrying out their protected? This is unnecessary, unless there is a public duties, councillors perform important work constitutional imperative to do something, which in the public interest. Was consideration given to is not the case here. the extension of this section to local authority Following that debate, in the next version of meetings and local area committee meetings? the Bill that section was omitted. I worry when The work of councils is significant. Much of Euro- something that is in the Constitution is relegated pean Union legislation is now implemented to a statutory protection. This is unnecessary. The through local authorities. This is important work point raised by Senator White is an important and there would appear to be a case that the one. If one starts making lists then the fact that privilege referred to in this section might be something is not on the list will gives rise to extended to local authorities and local council- questions. lors. I invite the Minister to comment. Senator Jim Walsh: I am a strong proponent of Senator Joe O’Toole: I am completely opposed the list approach because absolute privilege to the inclusion of local authorities in this section. should be confined to where it is essential and They would be uncontrollable and that would necessary for people to function effectively. The give me cause for concern. question of local authorities is an interesting one. I was prompted to ask this question by the first Councillors enjoy some privilege if not absolute point raised by Senator White. I am uneasy about privilege when speaking. an exclusive list, which is what this section A case occurred in Wexford a quarter of a cen- appears to contain. We appear to have taken a tury ago when one of my colleagues on the decision to collate aspects of common law, exist- county council criticised the management of the ing legislation and the Constitution. Is it neces- local landfill site in fairly condemnatory language. sary to put into legislation something which is There was much agitation in the area because of clearly understood to be protected? What is the the nuisance people encountered with flies, rationale for including in legislation statements smells, etc., due to the way in which the site was “made in proceedings before a committee of managed. On the face of it, the comments made either House of the Oireachtas”? We know that appeared to be fair but the landfill site employee to be the case, as it is covered in the Constitution whose job it was to maintain the site took a legal and is stated at the beginning of every meeting. case against the councillor, who was a former The extension of the privilege of the Houses to eminent Member of the Lower House at the time committees has been previously addressed. At or subsequently. The case went on for a consider- the beginning of each meeting the basis on which able period but to the best of my knowledge he the committee takes place is made very clear by was found not to be in breach of making a each committee Chairman. defamatory statement. The judge sensibly took I find it interesting that in his protection of the the view that in his position as a public represen- Judiciary, with which I completely agree, the tative, he was entitled to make the point but it Minister intends to extend privilege to witnesses. struck me, with the points being put forward, that Very often it is the comments made by witnesses it is an interesting anecdote in terms of ensuring in court that can cause a problem. In an earlier that councillors, in the genuine performance of section we made it a requirement that when their functions, are not exposed to similar circum- people put forward something in pleadings, they stances which could inhibit them functioning would have to swear an affidavit as to the factual effectively at local authority level. nature of the statement, and that they stood by it, yet at the same time one can introduce a wit- Senator Paddy Burke: I support my colleague, ness who can lose the run of himself of herself Senator Regan, and the other speakers on the and say things about somebody in a court. This question of some form of privilege for local auth- gives rise to serious questions. Why do we need ority members. As one who served on a local to put into legislation something which is already authority for many years I do not believe there covered either by previous legislation or by the was ever an occasion where privilege was used Constitution, not to mention common law? It but anything can happen in the heat of the worries me to do that. moment and if occasions arise where the heat of I remember arguing this case previously. When the moment battle can be established, there the first version of the Official Languages Act should be some form of privilege for the member. came before the House approximately five years Heated debate can take place in chambers and ago, an issue arose concerning the provision that comments made in anger or in the heat of the Members of the Oireachtas could speak in Irish moment. However, I agree with Senators who or in English. I see the Minister is smiling but I said there should be some form of privilege for 1975 Defamation Bill 2006: 5 December 2007. Committee Stage (Resumed) 1976

[Senator Paddy Burke.] a person performing a judicial function or a per- a local authority member. I ask the Minister to son exercising limited functions and powers of a examine that because it is an important issue for judicial nature enjoys absolute privilege under local government. these provisions. The Law Reform Commission pointed out that Deputy Brian Lenihan: Members of local auth- defining a quasi-judicial function can be a difficult orities enjoy qualified privilege and that is dealt exercise in draftsmanship and it is impossible to with in the next section. A qualified privilege is a provide an exhaustive list of quasi-judicial bodies. privilege to make an utterance or publish a state- For that reason it included the reference to ment in circumstances where the privilege can Article 37 in its recommendation because at least only be destroyed in the event of malice being it provides a definition that has a foundation in established. That is the current position in regard existing case law. We can say with clarity, there- to local authorities. fore, that a range of bodies will be covered by Senators should recall that absolute privilege is virtue of the reference to Article 37. The more a drastic device. It means that all statements are general reference in the section to any person immune from any actionability. When Senator performing a judicial function would cover a wide Norris raised the question of the courts system I range of bodies. It would certainly cover, for made the point that one of the reasons the courts example, a county registrar exercising limited must enjoy absolute privilege is not just because civil functions. of the position of the Judiciary in the Constitution Regarding bodies on the employment law side, but because of the need to prevent litigation I would envisage, for example, that the Employ- spawning further defamation actions. That is the ment Equality Tribunal is a body exercising fundamental reason we attach a privilege, for judicial functions and hearing and determining example, to the utterance of a witness in a court evidence and therefore statements made there proceeding because as Senator O’Toole pointed would attract an absolute privilege. out, the utterance of a witness in a court proceed- On the other hand — Senator White will prob- ing can often be reported and can often be ably be better than me on this — the Labour defamatory but the State must attach absolute Court as an institution is not necessarily judicial privilege to that statement because we cannot or quasi-judicial in its functions. It is not hearing spawn another defamation action arising out of evidence and making a determination on the facts in dispute in the court case. That is the evidence. fundamental justification for absolute privilege in court proceedings. Senator Alex White: It is somewhat contro- The absolute privilege the Houses of the versial at the moment as to whether it is or not. Oireachtas enjoy stems from the Constitution. Senator O’Toole raised the issue of whether in Deputy Brian Lenihan: Yes, my advice is be the case of that absolute privilege, we should careful with regard to the Labour Court. The legislate for it and whether the legislation is Labour Court may well enjoy a qualified privilege superfluous. I agree with him that matter should because the parties making statements there have be reviewed, and I will have it reviewed, and if an interest in making them and the person hear- there is any element of surplusage in the legis- ing the statements has a duty to hear them. There lation which is additional to the Constitution and may well be a qualified privilege but it is desir- unnecessary, it should not be in the legislation. able, as a matter of principle, to have an exhaus- However, I do not agree with the Senator that it tive list of the occasions to which absolute privi- is a mistake to provide an exhaustive list. It is lege attaches. important, given the absolute character of this That leads me to the last question which privilege, that we do an exhaustive list now. The Senator Regan, and all of the Senators, naturally constitutional references have crept in because raised and that is the question of local authorities. there was an exercise to establish a comprehen- The current position is that they enjoy a qualified sive list of occasions of absolute privilege. privilege. The question then arises whether an That leads me to the points of substance raised absolute privilege is attached to it. This House by Senators Alex White and Regan about the enjoys an absolute privilege for the effective occasions that should qualify and whether there operation of its system of supervision of the is a case for an extension. The Law Reform Com- Executive but even in the experience of this mission examined the question of quasi-judicial House we have seen arguments about the abuse bodies and came to the conclusion, reflected in of privilege. We have a committee in each House the legislation, that absolute privilege does attach to regulate the abuse of privilege so when an to a statement made in the course of proceedings abuse takes place the House, of its own motion, involving the exercise of limited functions and can discipline a Member for a breach of privilege. powers of a judicial nature in accordance with It is a drastic extension of the law to create very Article 37 of the Constitution where this state- large numbers of bodies. In justice we could not ment is connected with those proceedings and confine it to county councils; we would have to also, in subsection (f), made by a judge or other include town councils as well. The number and person performing a judicial function. Therefore, range of bodies is so large, the problems of regu- 1977 Defamation Bill 2006: Committee 5 December 2007. and Remaining Stages (Resumed) 1978 lation of abuse so extensive and the risk to the even if it is defamatory. I understand the necess- reputation is so great for those who could be ity for it but I have some reservations about it. defamed by these statements, that on balance Paragraph (k) refers to comments made in pro- there is not a good case for it. ceedings before a committee of either House of the Oireachtas. If I understand this correctly, it Amendment agreed to. confers absolute privilege on those comments. My experience is that a clear statement is made An Cathaoirleach: Amendment No. 5 is a by the chairman of the committee to members Government amendment and amendment No. 45 of the public who attend the meetings to submit is cognate. Therefore, amendments Nos. 5 and 45 reports or make presentations that while the will be discussed together by agreement. members of the committee enjoy absolute privi- lege, they do not. This provision appears to Government amendment No. 5: extend it to them. I have some concerns about In page 12, subsection (2)(r), line 44, to that because a wide range of people attend those delete “under the Constitution” and substitute meetings and some of them might have axes to “by law in the State”. grind. Paragraph (m) refers to statements “made in These are technical amendments which provide the course of proceedings before a tribunal”. I continuity with the correct reference to a court understand why the tribunal would be treated established by law in the State, which is already like a court but there have been many instances correctly referred to in section 15(2)(i). of people making audacious, unfounded com- ments as witnesses before the tribunals. Most Amendment agreed to. objective observers would say that some of those Progress reported; Committee to sit again. comments were made for purely vexatious reasons and were without foundation. I cannot see a way of interfering with or qualifying the Fifth Report of Committee of Selection: privilege. If Members of the Houses of the Motion. Oireachtas abuse the tremendous privilege they Senator Paddy Burke: The Committee of enjoy, they can be held to account by committees Selection reports that it has discharged Senator of the Houses. However, in the case of tribunals, Maurice Cummins from membership of the Joint that power does not always appear to be exer- Committee on European Affairs at his request cised by the chairmen. Where the chairman of a and has appointed Senator Paschal O’Donoghue tribunal instinctively believes the comments made in substitution for him. are defamatory and without foundation, is there The Committee of Selection reports that it has a system whereby he could defer their publication discharged Senator Lisa McDonald from mem- for a period until the tribunal can establish their bership of the Joint Committee on the Consti- truth or otherwise? tutional Amendment on Children, at her request, I believe that if a structure has absolute privi- and has appointed Senator Maria Corrigan in lege, there is a consequent responsibility to intro- substitution for her. duce a system of safeguards to ensure that if I move: “That the report be laid before the somebody wilfully comes into that structure and Seanad.” abuses such privilege, there must be a mechanism of correcting or stalling it. That is not in any way Question put and agreed to. to interfere with people who make comments which they genuinely believe. A distinction must Defamation Bill 2006: Committee and be made between the two. Perhaps it is not pos- Remaining Stages (Resumed). sible to deal with this but I feel particularly strong about this point. Any privilege we have must be SECTION 15. accompanied by responsibility, and where that responsibility is not exercised there must be a Question proposed: “That section 15, as system to correct or arrest it. amended, stand part of the Bill.” Senator Jim Walsh: On the section, I want to Senator Eugene Regan: The establishment of a raise a number of points, including the point tribunal of inquiry is generally a unique event and Senator White alluded to earlier with regard to arises where the political system in a sense the absolute privilege given to Members. I under- becomes somewhat dysfunctional, such that there stand the necessity for that. There is a system to is a loss of confidence in the system. It is a big deal with it even though I have some reservations step to set up a tribunal of inquiry. It cannot about abuses. However, paragraph (b) states, really complete its work without the privilege “contained in a report of a statement, to which attached to it. We have long tried to ensure that paragraph (a) applies, produced by or on the Oireachtas committees work more effectively and authority of either such House,”. What we are deal with matters of public concern and with discussing here is not the issue in the report but matters where there is, perhaps, a loss of trust in its subsequent publication, which can happen politics. The extension of absolute privilege to the 1979 Defamation Bill 2006: Committee 5 December 2007. and Remaining Stages (Resumed) 1980

[Senator Eugene Regan.] Senator Alex White: As I listened to Senator committees without qualification means that the Walsh I wondered if I was wrong but that is committees can perform a very important func- clearly its meaning. tion and could obviate the need for many of the tribunals of inquiry. The privilege proposed for Deputy Brian Lenihan: Senator Walsh referred the committees should stand. to three paragraphs. The first is straightforward and refers to a report produced by or on the auth- Senator David Norris: I agree, but I support ority of either House of the Oireachtas. Clearly, the points made by Senator Walsh. It is a fact a report of the House must have privilege that the chairmen of committees, in advance of attached. I am not sure whether it is provided for hearing submissions from members of the public, in the Constitution as well as in statute law. If clearly indicate to them that while members of statements in the Houses enjoy absolute privilege the committee are covered by privilege, the wit- under the Constitution, the rationale for includ- nesses are not. It is correct to put them on notice ing reports is the same. of this because some controversial matters have Fair points can be made on the other two been broached at committees in which I have matters raised by Senator Walsh. First, there is a been involved, for example, transport, Tara and change with regard to the proceedings of a com- so forth. Such intemperance should be held in mittee of either House of the Oireachtas. It is a check, particularly if it involves impugning third change on which I am open to persuasion and I parties who are not present to defend themselves. would be happy to get the views of the Commit- There has been a tendency for that to happen but tee on Procedure and Privileges of each House to in the transport and foreign affairs committees establish what are the wishes of each House with the chairmen were good at anticipating what was regard to the section. However, there is one diffi- about to happen and knocking it firmly on the culty I would like to highlight. Under legislation head. the Houses have powers of compellability. When With regard to tribunals, it is important to have a person is compelled to give testimony before a degree of privilege if they are to get to the heart the Houses, the Houses are embarking on a fact- of the matters being investigated. However, injus- finding mission, which would entail the attach- ment of absolute privilege to the utterances of tice can occur. There have been instances where witnesses. I propose to refer the matter to the people who have been described, at least in part, committees and I will take into account their as fantasists have made very wild accusations views. As Senator Walsh outlined, witnesses are which subsequently turned out to be incorrect at present advised of their qualified privilege. and inappropriate. However, I will seek the view of the committees on this. Senator Alex White: The Taoiseach. The final question related to the tribunals of inquiry. There is no doubt the manner of their Senator David Norris: That includes our operation has led to the traduction of reputation revered colleague from the other House. The dif- in a very improper way. However, this does not ficulty is the matter of delay. The tribunal is not arise in this legislation. It has more to do with a court of law and has a lower standard of proof our determination to establish tribunals and the in terms of giving evidence, which is not tested in character of the terms of reference we attach to quite the same way. The tribunals always make them. The tribunal of inquiry, as a device, is a the point that they are not courts. However, if method of transferring an issue from the political somebody makes an outrageous, defamatory and system to a judicial investigation. That is the basis untrue statement, and that is known to the tri- of the legislation. bunal, there is no rebuttal for a period of 18 The system of tribunals was introduced in the months. That period constitutes a severe punish- UK in 1920 after an infamous saga known as the ment for the innocent party. This is the element Marconi scandal, in which leading Ministers in I believe Senator Walsh is trying to address. It the Liberal Government were alleged to have might not be possible to address it at this point in been involved in improper share dealings on the the Bill but Senator Walsh has done a useful London Stock Exchange. A parliamentary com- service by drawing attention to it. I am a strong mittee of inquiry was charged with investigating supporter of the tribunals but I believe that some the allegations but, of course, a parliamentary of them have been milked by the legal profession. committee can become very partisan due to the domination of certain parties in the committee Senator Alex White: I seek clarification from membership. Therefore, in 1920 the then Parlia- the Minister on one point. My understanding of ment of the United Kingdom decided to establish paragraph (k) is that a statement “made in pro- a machinery in which a judge would be brought ceedings before a committee” includes a state- in to investigate the allegations. ment made by a witness giving evidence at the In the history of this State, many tribunals have committee. been established to investigate natural disasters or matters which did not have a direct bearing on Deputy Brian Lenihan: Yes. the Houses of the Oireachtas or the performance 1981 Defamation Bill 2006: Committee 5 December 2007. and Remaining Stages (Resumed) 1982 of functions by Members. However, in recent Senator Eugene Regan: The substitution of years we have come to use these tribunals more “public interest” for “public importance” is—— extensively in these areas, which has given rise to much difficulty. That is why the commissions of Senator Alex White: I do not think that is part investigation legislation was enacted, and many of this grouping of amendments. We are dis- of the proceedings before those commissions can cussing Nos. 6, 7, 9 and 10. be conducted in private. The difficulty of public disclosure of private information by tribunals is Senator Eugene Regan: We are not dealing also serious. As I made clear in the other House with No. 8 at the moment. That is fine, thank you. recently, the tribunals of inquiry Bill will give us an opportunity to explore these issues, but it is Senator David Norris: I thank the Minister for not intended to be brought into operation in having read the previous debate and for making advance of the completion of the current tri- this clarification. I was one of those who raised bunals and their work within the envisaged the question of the obscurity of the language and timescales. I am glad he is operating in this fashion.

Senator Jim Walsh: I wish to make a sugges- Senator Jim Walsh: This part of the Bill deals tion. The Minister is prudent in consulting the with the defence of honest opinion. My amend- Committees on Procedure and Privileges. It ment, which excludes part of subsection 3(a), is might also be useful, however, to consult with the superseded by the Minister’s amendment, which Working Group of Committee Chairmen, removes section 3. because the members would have opinions based on practical experience, which might be helpful. Deputy Brian Lenihan: We have helped the Senator to some extent. Senator Alex White: I wish to put on record my view that this is an entirely appropriate pro- Senator Jim Walsh: Yes, indeed. I welcome this vision and that absolute privilege ought to attach change. The last time the Bill was discussed, I to witnesses before committees of the Oireachtas. pointed out that the plaintiff must give an affi- davit and the defendant is not defined in the Bill. Question put and agreed to. I had some concerns that if one is suing a broad- Sections 16 and 17 agreed to. caster or a newspaper — I will stick with the newspaper — it may be unclear who the defend- SECTION 18 ant is. Is it the newspaper itself, the reporter or the editor? There may be a need to define who Government amendment No. 6: the defendant is under this section. If a defence of honest opinion is put forward, it comes back In page 14, subsection (1), line 37, to delete to whose opinion that was. I envisage difficulties “Act” and substitute “section”. and confusion in this regard and the possibility of obfuscation. As a consequence, there may be An Cathaoirleach: Amendments Nos. 6, 7 and difficulties for the plaintiff in processing his or her 9 are related and No. 10 is a technical alternative case. I am not sure how this could be dealt with. to No. 9. These amendments will be discussed Let us say a reporter writes an article contain- ing information which he or she believes to be together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed. true but the editor knows is not. Alternatively, a reporter may write an article knowing it to be Deputy Brian Lenihan: Amendments Nos. 6, 7 defamatory and surmising it to be untrue, but the and 9 are drafting amendments. Amendment No. editor must defend the case. Are we leaving a 6 is purely technical. Amendment No. 7 provides lacuna that makes the processing of cases diffi- that the reference in subsection (2)(b)(ii) to “the cult? I ask the Minister whether there is a need defence of qualified privilege” be in accordance to define the defendant and whether we might with all of section 16 and not limited to section seek a responding affidavit from both the editor 16(2). A similar amendment may be required in and the reporter in my example. Clearly, if the section 29(4), and I will examine this matter prior defendant is claiming the defence of honest to Report Stage. opinion, this is being asserted to the court by both Amendment No. 9 proposes to improve the of them, because they both have a responsibility text of the Bill for greater clarity. Having con- in the publication of the article — one writes it sidered the points made by Senators on Commit- and the other decides to publish it, perhaps tee Stage in the last Seanad and the current word- attaching a headline which puts a further spin on ing of this subsection, I agreed that the drafting the issue. We know from reading headlines in could be improved on. The proposed amendment newspapers that they often bear very little improves on the original construction and a sim- relation to the actual articles and can be very pler approach is taken to this rather complex critical or defamatory in their language due to the issue. Amendment No. 10 is in the name of focus on selling newspapers. We must be careful Senator Walsh. in this matter. Speaking as a non-legal person, 1983 Defamation Bill 2006: Committee 5 December 2007. and Remaining Stages (Resumed) 1984

[Senator Jim Walsh.] Senator David Norris: That is not what I am perhaps we should tighten the provision. I wel- saying. come the Minister’s amendment in general, as it will improve the section immensely. Senator Alex White: I know, but it could be the unintended effect of what the Senator has in Senator David Norris: I welcome the Minister’s mind. amendment. All sides of the House fought vigor- I welcome the Government amendment and ously on this section because, as originally the language in the Bill. Senator O’Donovan drafted, it seemed to come dangerously close to raised the question of justification and was con- meaning “this is true because I say it is true or I cerned that we would move from it to truth. The think it is the case”. By prefacing something with Minister was right to state that they are the same. “my opinion”, it seemed to mean everything The 1961 Act uses the word “truth” in seeking to would be all right. I categorised it as the “Joan explain what it means by “justification”. Rivers defence”. At the time, she had advertise- The terms “justification” and “fair comment” ments on RTE for her show, which was called have other meanings in everyday language and it “Allegedly”. To protect herself, she made a joke is right for this legislation to set them aside once out of the issue by prefacing every appalling com- and for all. When we use the term “fair com- ment on the stars of the entertainment firmament ment” in everyday conversation, we mean some- with the word “allegedly”. thing distinct in a colloquial sense. Over the Senator Walsh’s concern regarding who should years, we have imported that phrase into law, but be responsible may be addressed by a later it has unfortunately not helped. I know from amendment if the Minister accepts it. I believe in direct experience of trying to explain to people the timeworn American phrase “the what “fair comment” means that, from a legal 1 o’clock buck stops here”. The buck should stop with the editor and proprietor. perspective, it has always meant honest opinion. Amendment No. 39 in my name states: “In the It is right to codify the meaning in legislation and case of a successful defamation action, the Editor refer to it for what it is, namely, the expression and Proprietor of the newspaper which published of an honest opinion or an opinion honestly held. the defamatory statement shall be liable for We should remove the term “fair comment” from damages.” This removes the journalist who may our descriptions of these matters in the same way be vulnerable from the firing line and places the we have replaced “justification” with what was responsibility where it should be, as the editor is always meant, namely, “truth”. I welcome the in command of the newspaper, the proprietor section’s clarity of language, which is carried profits from it and they have legal staff. through in the Government amendment. Yesterday, a question was raised during the interview of a newspaper reporter who had been Deputy Brian Lenihan: The defendant whose dealing trenchantly with the evidence given by editor had one opinion about the honest opinion the Taoiseach and the contradiction of that by and whose journalist who wrote the article had a Mr. Hynes, the former head of the national lot- different opinion would be in a weak position in tery. When asked whether he had further infor- any court proceeding. The credibility of his or her mation, the reporter said that he had, but that his case would be undermined by the conflict within article had been “legalled”. Passing articles under the defendant’s command structure in respect of the scrutiny of libel lawyers is something that the publication. Regarding this practical matter, responsible newspapers do routinely. Senator Walsh’s concern is not real. I sympathise with journalists on this issue The section addresses the question of comment because there can be inadvertent libel. I know of and opinion. It is important to bear in mind one case in which a dear, old friend of mine who section 18(1) which states: “It shall be a defence is no longer with us made a humorous off-the-cuff (to be known, and in this Act referred to, as the remark in a column about a comic. The comic did ”defence of honest opinion“) to a defamation not have much of a sense of humour and I know action for the defendant to prove that, in the case the stress and strain caused to my friend as a con- of a statement consisting of an opinion, the sequence. It would do no harm to clarify that in opinion was honestly held.” In pleading the terms of these actions, the buck stops with the defence in defamation actions, the traditional two principal elements who should be responsible defence of fair comment was to say of an article with all of the relevant safeguards, namely, the or statement that in so far as it contained state- proprietor and the editor. I do not know whether ments of fact, it was true and, in so far as it was a this would satisfy Senator Walsh’s situation. statement of opinion, it was a fair and reasonable comment on matters of public importance. For Senator Alex White: We can return to this the reasons outlined by Senator Alex White, this issue when it arises, but I am concerned on behalf seemed to be a cumbersome way of describing of the plaintiff by Senator Norris’s proposal. If the fact that an opinion cannot be proven as a the potential plaintiff — the little man or woman fact, but that it needed to be shown as being fair as described — must face multiple defendants in and reasonable. The traditional law is being one action and decide who is responsible—— restated in the Bill in terms of an honest opinion. 1985 Defamation Bill 2006: Committee 5 December 2007. and Remaining Stages (Resumed) 1986

Having examined the Bill and Senators’ Deputy Brian Lenihan: The purpose of the opinions on Committee Stage in the previous amendment is to give greater clarity to the pro- Seanad, I agree with Senator Norris that the lang- vision. These are the circumstances in which the uage in the original provision lacked clarity. The defence of honest opinion fails. It fails unless the Parliamentary Counsel has devised a better defendant proves the truth of the allegations, formulation in respect of the defence of honest which has to be there. If the defendant does not opinion, one over which we can stand as a codifi- prove the truth of the allegations when dealing cation of existing law without going beyond cur- with a matter of opinion, the opinion could not rent law. In that respect, I am happy with the be reasonably understood as implying the alle- provision. gations were true. This is worded as “at the time Senator O’Toole raised a matter that will arise of the publication the defendant did not know or when we address section 24. I do not want to could not reasonably expected to know the alle- anticipate discussion on the section, but an gations were untrue.” These are cumulative attempt has been made in the legislation to codify requirements under this amendment. all available defences in a defamation action. This I will examine the fact that the two require- is correct because we as legislators have a duty to ments are cumulative on Report Stage. It is an define in exact terms the scope of this particular imposition on a defendant. civil wrong. We cannot leave matters to be deter- Amendment agreed to. mined by the courts or leave issues open. Conse- quently, the drafting of this legislation has been a Government amendment No. 7: difficult exercise because some concepts with clear meanings in text books and judicial In page 15, subsection (2)(b)(ii), to delete decisions must be translated into statutory form lines 14 and 15 and substitute the following: for the first time. This matter is an example of “(II) the defence of qualified privilege,”. that type of exercise.

Senator Eugene Regan: I ask for clarity on Amendment agreed to. section 18(3)(b). It states: Government amendment No. 8: [T]hat defence shall not fail by reason only of the defendant’s failing to prove the truth of In page 15, subsection (2)(c), line 19, to those allegations unless - delete “public importance” and substitute “public interest”. (i) the opinion could reasonably be under- stood as implying that those allegations are Deputy Brian Lenihan: This amendment pro- true, or vides that the new defence shall be known as the (ii) the allegations are untrue and, at the defence of fair and reasonable publication on a time of the publication of the opinion, the matter of public interest and not public import- defendant knew or ought reasonably to have ance. Having examined the debates on the pre- known that those allegations were untrue. vious Committee Stage, I am persuaded by the argument that for greater clarity it may be better Amendment No. 9 states: to use the term “public interest” which is well (ii) where the defendant does not prove understood and well established in case law. the truth of those allegations- It also reflects recent developments before the courts where Mr. Justice Peter Charleton referred (I) the opinion could not reasonably be to the concept of public interest rather than understood as implying that those alle- public importance. I do not want to open a debate gations were true, and yet on Mr. Justice Peter Charleton’s judgment. I (II) at the time of the publication of the would prefer to discuss this under another opinion, the defendant did not know or section. could not reasonably have been expected to know that those allegations were Senator Eugene Regan: I welcome the change untrue. to the wording which is appropriate.

It is the use of the word “and” between the two Senator Alex White: If we had continued with subparagraphs that I query. Does it make sense the term “public importance” the courts would to use it? The amendment also changes the word- have been adjudicating as to what constituted a ing from “the defendant knew or ought reason- matter of public importance. Controversy would ably to have known that those allegations were have arisen with the inevitable and almost pat- untrue” to “the defendant did not know or could ernalistic sense as to what a court thinks is an not reasonably have been expected to know that issue of public importance. I welcome the substi- those allegations were untrue”. What are the tution as the concept of public interest is known Minister’s views on this wording? to us. Although it is not without its own contro- 1987 Defamation Bill 2006: Committee 5 December 2007. and Remaining Stages (Resumed) 1988

[Senator Alex White.] such a strong opinion. It is a more valuable safe- versies, it is much more attractive than the nar- guard to use the term “public interest”,. I agree rower notion of public importance. with the views expressed by Senators on this matter. Senator Jim Walsh: I have some reservations about this amendment as it may be lowering the Amendment agreed to. bar. The thrust of my argument on this Bill is not to allow that to occur. I appreciate what was said Government amendment No. 9: by the legal Members about public importance. In page 15, lines 20 to 38, to delete subsec- However, the terms “the opinion related to a tion (3) and substitute the following: matter of public interest” may not necessarily mean it is in the interest of the public. There may “(3)(a) The defence of honest opinion be a legal connotation. Public interest could just shall fail, if the opinion concerned is based be a curiosity and, therefore, I am concerned a on allegations of fact to which subsection defence could be mounted with only a low level (2)(b)(i) applies, unless— of proof. (i) the defendant proves the truth of I stand to be corrected but the term “public those allegations, or importance” is clear. In a legal setting it might not be as well defined as I interpret it to be. (ii) where the defendant does not prove Public interest could be anything, however, even the truth of all of those allegations,the the result of last night’s match. I am not con- opinion is honestly held having regard to vinced by the substitution of the terms “public the allegations of fact the truth of which importance” with “public interest”. I do not want are proved. to split hairs on it but it is fundamental when it (b) The defence of honest opinion shall gets to court as to the level and threshold for the fail, if the opinion concerned is based on alle- judicial assessment of whether it was correctly gations of fact to which subsection (2)(b)(ii) done. applies, unless—

Senator David Norris: I am glad the Minister (i) the defendant proves the truth of has taken the arguments on the previous Com- those allegations, or mittee Stage into account. I support the amend- (ii) where the defendant does not prove ment because I believe the Minister has tightened the truth of those allegations— up this provision. Public importance gives a free range for prurient interest, speculation and pok- (I) the opinion could not reasonably ing around unnecessarily in people’s dirty linen be understood as implying that those with no good real investigative point. allegations were true, and With so many lawyers around the joint, I am (II) at the time of the publication of sure I will be told if I am wrong but I believe the opinion, the defendant did not know there is a definition in case law of public interest. or could not reasonably have been It is similar to a phrase in the Constitution, alas expected to know that those allegations rarely used, “the public good”. If I am incorrect, were untrue.”. there may be a case for attempting a definition of public interest in the Bill. Public interest has been Amendment agreed to. satisfactorily defined by the operation of case law. Amendment No. 10 not moved. Deputy Brian Lenihan: Public interest brings greater clarity into the law which is always desir- Section 18, as amended, agreed to. able. Public importance does not have a term of art meaning in the law in the same sense. Apart SECTION 19. from established case law in this area, a matter of public interest can be distinguished clearly from Government amendment No. 11: a matter of private interest. Public clearly con- notes the concept of a zone of private interest In page 16, line 4, to delete “shall”. and, therefore, increases the burden on a defend- ant who must demonstrate the matter is of public Deputy Brian Lenihan: This is a technical and not private interest. It is difficult to think of drafting amendment to improve the text of the the term “importance” in the same light. Bill. The word “shall” appears twice in section 19, Matters not of public importance — public in lines 1 and 4. The reference to “shall” in line 4 unimportance, so to speak — does not connote is superfluous and this amendment proposes to the same degree of public interest. This is an remove it. essential feature of the defence of fair comment. One cannot make an honest comment about a Senator David Norris: I understand that the matter of private interest. It must be a matter of Minister is trying to make this section grammati- public interest for one to be entitled to express cally clear but would it not have been better in 1989 Defamation Bill 2006: Committee 5 December 2007. and Remaining Stages (Resumed) 1990 line 3 after the phrase “consisting of opinion,” to “commensurate with the prominence given to the include the phrase “and shall include the follow- original publication” or otherwise? ing”? There is no grammatical proscription on using the word “shall” twice, particularly when it Senator Jim Walsh: I support Senator Regan’s covers slightly different elements. I am not comment. insisting on it but it seems to flow better with “and shall” so that the section would read: Deputy Brian Lenihan: I may revisit section 20 on Report Stage, addressing the issue Senator The matters to which the court in a defa- Regan raised. It may arise on this section but not mation action shall have regard, for the pur- necessarily because this is an offer of amends pro- poses of distinguishing between a statement cedure which has existed since the 1961 Act. The consisting of allegations of fact and a statement issue, however, will be better discussed in some consisting of opinion, and shall include the of the subsequent sections and we should have a following: more detailed discussion on the issue of the pro- minence of an apology. If, as a result of that dis- Senator Eugene Regan: Senator Norris is cussion, we decide to move in that direction an grammatically correct because the clause has two incidental change will be required in section 20 purposes, “shall have regard” and “shall include”. as well. This seems to be more elegant language. Senator David Norris: I have a note in the mar- Deputy Brian Lenihan: I have some sympathy gin of the Bill that I intend to table an amend- with the views expressed. I will consider the issue ment to the effect that the apology shall have at and table an amendment on Report Stage. It cer- least the same prominence as the original tainly reads more elegantly with the insertion of defamatory statement. That is only fair because it the conjunction. is not appropriate for a newspaper to have the defence of an apology if it sticks it on the back Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. page, in Irish.

Question proposed: “That section 19 stand part Question put and agreed to. of the Bill.” SECTION 21. Senator David Norris: Is there any necessity for me to table an amendment on this? An Cathaoirleach: Amendments Nos. 12 and 31 are related and will be discussed together by An Cathaoirleach: No, because section 19 will agreement. be part of the Bill as written, not as amended. The Minister will table an amendment on Government amendment No. 12: Report Stage. In page 17, subsection (2), line 35, to delete Deputy Brian Lenihan: I am withdrawing my “making” and substitute “the publication of”. current amendment because of the Senator’s observations on it and revisiting the issue the Deputy Brian Lenihan: These are technical Senator raised on Report Stage. There is no point amendments designed to improve the text to in amending the Bill with the Government make it clear that the apology being made amendment now and coming back to it on requires publication. Report Stage. Amendment agreed to. Question put and agreed to. Section 21, as amended, agreed to. SECTION 20. SECTION 22. Question proposed: “That section 20 stand part of the Bill.” An Cathaoirleach: Amendments Nos. 14 and 15 are cognate and are related to amendment No. Senator Eugene Regan: I am concerned about 13. Therefore, amendments Nos. 13 to 15, section 20(5)(b) which, referring an offer to make inclusive, will be discussed together by amends means an offer, “to publish that correc- agreement. tion and apology in such manner as is reasonable and practicable in the circumstances,”. There is Senator Alex White: I move amendment often a major dispute about the form of the apol- No.13: ogy. In many cases the apology is printed in the In page 18, between lines 8 and 9, to insert corner of page 10 whereas the defamation was the following subsection: published on top fold of the front page. Could the language in this subsection be tightened up, for “(2) The court may regard an apology as example, by the inclusion of a phrase such as effecting a substantial mitigation of damage if, 1991 Defamation Bill 2006: Committee 5 December 2007. and Remaining Stages (Resumed) 1992

[Senator Alex White.] judge. We say that when a person dies that is the but only if, it is made within 14 days of com- end but people who survive deserve respect. plaint being made in respect of the utterance There has been talk of a press ombudsman and to which the apology relates, and if the defend- a journalists’ council, run by the media, covering ant’s proposals for publication of the apology the area of defamation. This should be examined are reasonable.”. because we must be wary of giving carte blanche to the media in an area about which I feel This takes us into the area of apologies. I agree strongly. As public representatives, whatever our with the Minister’s earlier comment that to political leanings, we must be vigilant of what is achieve the balance sought by this legislation it is said about a person who has died, especially when a priority to ensure that media organisations pub- it is untrue. I do not mean to detract from the lish apologies as appropriate and would do so “re- woman involved in the Liam Lawlor case but it adily”. This is desirable. does not rest easy with me that she received a My default position in this debate is to favour substantial sum using libel laws in this country. the widest possible latitude for freedom of The pain she experienced in Moscow was prob- expression, consistent with the protection of the ably far less than that suffered by the Lawlor good name of an individual. Where there is a family. If the Bill ignores this then it will not be clash it is for us to determine where to strike the as strong a piece of legislation as I would like. balance. An apology when appropriate should be timely and expeditious. There is little point in giv- Senator David Norris: I am not at all sure we ing protection to defendants who delay publi- should debate who was hurt most as I thought the cation of an apology because the impact of a libel woman in question had a very reasonable case. is felt most acutely in the hours, days or weeks She suffered the traumas of the accident and was after publication. The longer the aggrieved per- then told she had been in the car with Mr. Lawlor son has to wait the less impact the apology will for the purposes of prostitution. It was indicated have. that she was a well known teenage prostitute and In this amendment we regard mitigation as sub- I think that is a shocking thing to say about a stantial mitigation. If an apology is not published person. I think she is entitled to feel as hurt as within the timeframe that we propose, we would anyone else in this case. not exclude the possibility of mitigation being I agree with Senator Alex White’s argument in associated with late apologies but it would not be favour of the Labour Party’s amendment as I substantial mitigation. We would be flexible in a think the principle is correct, though I am not discussion of the timeframe. There could be some sure of the time. People closer to the newspaper mitigation for a late apology but not substantial trade would be better able to say but 14 days may mitigation. This is consistent with the Minister’s very well be reasonable; I am not sure of this but comment about apologies being published I support the principle. I was pleased to hear the readily. Senator speak of the sting of libel as it seems we are returning to the area of feelings, and Senator Senator Denis O’Donovan: I am sure the Mini- O’Donovan spoke in a similar way. ster is more capable of responding to this amend- I will turn briefly to my own amendments, ment than I but I support the gist of it. Defa- which sought to insert the word “automatically” in lines 15 and 17 on page 18, section 22. The mation can cause a great deal of damage. I raised changes mean the text would read: in this House the case brought by a Ukrainian interpreter against a number of newspapers after In a defamation action, an apology made by the death of our former colleague, Liam Lawlor. or on behalf of a defendant in respect of a The accident happened at a weekend and that statement to which the action relates— Sunday morning a most appalling story was told (a) does not automatically constitute an which was poorly researched and utterly untrue. express or implied admission of liability by The lady involved, of whom I had never heard that defendant, and previously, used Irish legislation to get a substan- tial settlement, plus costs. (b) is not automatically relevant to the I am not sure how many people in Moscow and determination of liability in the action. the Ukraine read the Irish newspapers that I suggest these changes because I understand the Sunday and Monday. I do not aim to demean her press interests the Minister is addressing. Editors case but Liam Lawlor’s widow and children suf- and proprietors of newspapers are almost unable fered immense hurt. Irrespective of history, it was to print apologies because they constitute an bad enough that he was killed but nobody admission of liability. Insurance companies tell deserved what followed. Not a single cent came those involved in car accidents to never admit to Mrs. Lawlor and no apology was tendered by liability at the scene of an accident and this is the print media in subsequent publications. We similar. People sometimes admit liability and are must not lose sight of such incidents in this Defa- probably right to do so if they were in the wrong. mation Bill because it could affect another col- However, I think it is unfair on the plaintiff that league or a prominent public figure, such as a printing an apology automatically expunges all 1993 Defamation Bill 2006: Committee 5 December 2007. and Remaining Stages (Resumed) 1994 other redresses. I suggest there should be balance issue is that the apology should be offered as and the court should be allowed take apologies quickly as is reasonable. Some consideration and admissions of liability into account when should be given to this. making judgments. This would give a greater I fully support the comments made by Senator scope for the operation of judgments. It might not O’Donovan. The case he raised is a fine example have a great impact on damages awarded but it of the issue at hand. It is extraordinary that no would leave it open to judges to acknowledge heads rolled within the offending organs of the apologies and decide whether they constitute an media given that the article in question was admission of liability. clearly published with abandon and written with- Apologies do amount to an admission of liab- out any research. That is astonishing and it tells ility and we are, in my opinion, simply giving its own story. The comparison Senator immunity to those who make admissions of liab- O’Donovan made is a good one. We have pre- ility. I do not think people who apologise should viously urged in this House that a provision be get away with what they said in every case thanks included in the Bill to ensure the next of kin of to the words “I am sorry”. That is like something deceased persons have some redress when scurri- out of the film “Love Story” where the tag line lous articles are written about the latter. I am was “love means never having to say you’re aware of the argument that we should be careful sorry”. In this case it seems one can get away with not to interfere with the proper conduct of the murder if one says “sorry”. One can say the Mini- writing of history. However, it should not be ster is a well known murderer and bank robber beyond our ingenuity to afford a protection to only to disclaim liability by saying “I am sorry, I which most people would subscribe as fair and will read that again” afterwards. I do not believe reasonable. this is necessarily a good idea and feel the inser- tion of the word “automatically” strengthens the Deputy Brian Lenihan: It is seldom that a Bill while retaining the protection so ardently Minister in the Seanad considers it a bad idea sought by newspapers. when several amendments are grouped together. In this case, however, there might have been Senator Eugene Regan: The amendment pro- merit in dealing separately with these amend- posed raises some very important questions. If ments because Senators Norris and Alex White one relies on this provision to mitigate the level are addressing two entirely different issues. of damages, time should run from the date of the Section 22 deals with the apology that may be complaint and I feel this level of specificity is offered by a defendant in mitigation of damages. necessary. This point is made in the amendment, A defendant can always offer such an apology to though whether it should be 14 days is open to reduce the amount of damages to which the plain- debate. It should be clear that time is of the tiff is entitled. The ability of the defendant to essence when an apology is to be made. The date point to an apology as a mitigating factor is an given may be the day before the action com- existing and appropriate feature of our defa- menced when the aggrieved party has made all mation system. An apology can only be offered efforts to consider the matter. The form of the in mitigation of damages, however, not in extinc- apology comes into question, which comes back tion of damages. I agree with Senator Walsh that to the point I raised on the previous section. An there is a danger in Senator Alex White’s refer- offer of apology should be reasonable in the sense ence in amendment No. 13 to “substantial miti- that it should be as prominent as the insult was gation of damage”. This would mean that the in the first instance. mere production of an apology would entitle the Revision is required in this area, whether using defendant to a substantial reduction in damages. the specific wording proposed by Senator White, That is not the law. Rather, the law is that the because provision must be made for time being court can assess the quality of the apology in miti- of the essence and running from the date of the gation of damages. complaint. The issue of the prominence of the This also addresses the issue of the time limit apology must also be dealt with. Without these proposed by Senators Regan and Alex White. ingredients this provision should not be open to There is no need for a time limit if an apology the publisher. does not effect a substantial reduction in the damages awarded. That is why no timeframe is Senator Jim Walsh: I oppose the reference to written into section 22. To provide for such would “substantial mitigation” in Senator White’s prejudice the position of a plaintiff who could be amendment. If the article was defamatory and told that, because an apology has been given poorly researched in the first place those respon- within 14 days, for example, he or she is thus not sible should face the consequences. Senator entitled to damages. That is not the purpose of Norris contended in an earlier debate that it the first two subsections which deal with miti- should be a case of print the truth or pay the gation of damages by an apology. price. I fully subscribe to that. However, I have Senator Norris’s amendments propose to some support for the timeframes suggested by amend subsections (3)(a) and (3)(b) by the inser- Senator Regan. Regardless of whether the time tion of the word “automatically”. If I had to go allowed should be 14 or 21 days, the important to the stake on this Bill, subsection (3) is the one 1995 Defamation Bill 2006: Committee 5 December 2007. and Remaining Stages (Resumed) 1996

[Deputy Brian Lenihan.] involved that they would face a jury induced them subsection I would enact unchanged. It is essen- to make a settlement of the proceedings. tial we recognise the reality of what happens in It is a matter of record that, after my appoint- court in libel actions. Newspapers are reluctant to ment, I consulted various media organisations, issue an apology because they see it as an admis- lawyers who acted for both plaintiffs and defend- sion of liability. As a consequence, plaintiffs face ants, and academics in regard to this Bill. I indi- the prospect of lengthy, expensive and traumatic cated to all the media organisations that the issue proceedings in the High Court where they face of gravest concern to me was that newspapers in the full battery of the legal armoury the defend- recent years had breached a fundamental Irish ant can afford to vindicate his or her reputation. custom of respect for the dead, particularly at There is no incentive for a defendant to apologise funerals and in the immediate aftermath of death. under the current system. Rather, the opposite is I indicated that this was an issue about which I the case. had grave concerns. I conveyed my wish to the It is important that we provide that incentive. press ombudsman that the press council address This is the purpose of subsection (3), which states: this issue as its number one priority. The situation regarding Liam Lawlor is not the only example In a defamation action, an apology made by of this recent practice. or on behalf of a defendant in respect of a Whether we can deal with this issue in this Bill statement to which the action relates— is a matter for consideration in our debate on (a) does not constitute an express or another section. I do not want to anticipate the implied admission of liability by that defend- difficulties that are likely to arise but the writing ant, and of obituaries, for example, is clearly in the public interest. The freedom to make comment is (b) is not relevant to the determination of important and it is a matter upon which action liability in the action. must be taken. I wish the press ombudsman and This is an important provision not only for liti- press council well in their work. There is a black gants in the current system but for the operation hole in that certain matters can be published in of the press council. The council will not work Irish newspapers that cannot be published in Brit- until this subsection is enacted. The press ish newspapers because of the operation of the press council in the United Kingdom. I am ombudsman has little moral suasion with an edi- anxious to give the council an opportunity to plug tor of a newspaper or the controller of a broad- that black hole. It is matter of public record that casting organisation in terms of procuring an I was prepared to leave the Privacy Bill 2006 on apology. The editor or controller will decline to the Order Paper of this House for a period to offer an apology because he or she believes the allow the council time to demonstrate its capacity. plaintiff in question will swallow the apology If that capacity is not demonstrated and this Bill before suing the newspaper or broadcasting cannot address the issue of the defamation of a organisation and taking it to the cleaners. That is dead person at the time of his or her funeral, it is the advice the editor or controller will receive. an issue to which I will return in the Privacy Bill The purpose of this subsection is to move this 2006. I am not prepared to let this black hole branch of the law away from that type of continue. approach. We must recognise that media organis- ations are powerful and we must create a culture Senator Alex White: I agree with most of what where apologies are much more readily given. I the Minister said. In particular, I agree with his cannot accept Senator Norris’s amendments comments on subsection (3) and his contention because they would introduce a considerable that an apology should not constitute an express degree of uncertainty in this regard. or implied admission of liability. I thank Senator The question of deceased persons can be Norris for his support of my amendment and I addressed in our discussion of another section. wish I could return the favour on this occasion. However, I will speak about it now because Unfortunately I cannot, as it would open up—— Senator O’Donovan spoke in strong terms about his concern that an apology is not given to the Senator Jim Walsh: The Senator is ungrateful. relatives or next of kin of a deceased person whose reputation has been grievously traduced in Senator Alex White: I am hoping for a chance print or broadcast media. The Senator referred to to support one or other of the amendments the case of the late Liam Lawlor. The person who Senator Norris has tabled very carefully to this was travelling in the vehicle with Mr. Lawlor legislation. He has given much attention to it, when he died sued before the Irish courts because both on this occasion and the last, as we can see of claims made against her at the time of his from reading the transcripts. death. This case is a signal illustration of the If we introduced the word “automatically”, it importance of jury trial in defamation actions. I would then give rise to a debate as to the circum- am not satisfied this action would have led to the stances in which an apology should or should not same conclusion were the trial conducted by constitute an admission of liability. That would judge alone. The realisation by the newspapers be unfortunate and would undermine the very 1997 Defamation Bill 2006: Committee 5 December 2007. and Remaining Stages (Resumed) 1998 laudable intention behind this. It seems to be an record in this area of attacking gay people. The incentive for media organisations to furnish an man was killed by one stab wound which severed apology and, importantly, it would bring about the carotid artery. The large headline in The Star pressure for them to do so. was “Kinky Sex Horror”. The first paragraph This leads to my amendment. I have heard the stated: “Gardaı´ were last night probing whether Senators’ concerned comments, especially those a man was murdered or killed accidentally in a of Senator Walsh, regarding the use of the term kinky sex game.” The Garda was not doing so as “substantial mitigation”. Perhaps I might recon- there was no kinky sex game. The man was killed sider the term before Report Stage. We are in the by one stab wound which made him bleed to business with this discussion of incentivising or death very quickly. There were descriptions of pressurising media organisations into furnishing the man being trussed up like a pig and it was apologies in an expeditious manner. There is only suggested that he died in some kind of Michael a very short moment after the publication of a Hutchence-style operation. The word “orgy” was defamatory statement when it really makes a sig- used but it was a pretty modest orgy if there were nificant difference to an aggrieved plaintiff that only two people involved in it. an apology be published in respect of him or her. The idea was put about that this man had vol- An impact is made only in that short time. untarily engaged in a process whereby partial Putting a timeframe in place, be it 14 days or asphyxiation leads to an increase in sexual something marginally longer, will get people pleasure. That is completely untrue. After that thinking. At the risk of personalising the matter the newspapers hounded the family and tried to too much, as a former journalist who worked in ascertain funeral details so they could take photo- the field for ten years and as a lawyer working in graphs. The family has contacted the newspaper the field, there is nothing that concentrates the and nothing has been done. There has been no minds of journalists and editors more quickly apology and this may be a case that falls into a than the prospect of a libel action coming down gap between the passage of this Bill and the oper- the tracks that they know they cannot win or to ation of the press council. which they have significant exposure. I agree with my colleagues on the other side of We are not in the business of solving problems the House that this type of offence is intolerable for the media as we have a wider interest here, and unsustainable. I am very ashamed that it hap- but if we can pressurise them into seeing that the pened in an Irish newspaper, not a British tabloid. problem can be fixed quickly, within a period of The newspaper savaged one of our own who was 14 or 21 days, that would be entirely consistent killed under the most appalling circumstances. with the argument made by the Minister. That is to say apologies would be given readily. It con- Senator Eugene Regan: I return to the net centrates the minds and puts pressure on the edi- tors and everyone else to deal with the problem issue of timeliness. In section 22(1)(b), the term now rather than delay the matter for six months used is “as soon as practicable thereafter, in cir- or two years or whenever the issue goes to court. cumstances where the action was commenced”. Section 22(1)(a) does not mention timeliness. I Senator David Norris: I am not completely con- wonder if the insertion of the term “in a timely vinced either by the Minister or Senator White. manner before the bringing of the action” would They seem to be overly optimistic about the nat- make that link between the mitigation and the ure of the printed media in this country, partic- fact that an apology was offered in a timely man- ularly as it comes under very sustained pressure ner. Otherwise there is no real direction to a from the British market. I already referred to the court to take into account the element of timing way in which The Sun dealt with its apology and timeliness. under the press council. It made the apology and We refer to timeliness in section 22(1)(b) and then repeated the offence. I am very reluctant to it seems we could usefully do likewise in the pre- give an unqualified “get out of jail free” card, vious paragraph. I will leave that for the Minister which is precisely what this is. I will wait and see. to consider. Perhaps the optimists will be proved right and I will be proved to have been too much of a Senator Denis O’Donovan: Ta´ an t-am nach pessimist. mo´ r istigh. I do not want to labour the point but I am very glad Senators O’Donovan and Walsh I concur with Senator Norris’s comments about raised the question of the offence to the family of the other example. I picked the case of the the deceased in regard to reputation. I again reporting of the late Liam Lawlor’s death. refer, with a slightly different emphasis, to the I will clarify my point. I only met Liam Law- story I raised yesterday with regard to the rela- lor’s widow on one occasion and I would not tives of the deceased. The story was just was bad know the lady very well. Responsible journalism as the Liam Lawlor case. The story concerned an should have reacted at editorial level in the after- inoffensive, gentle and decent man who met math of that saga. It not only affected the family someone he thought would be a partner in at but also politics in general because it could have least some kind of perhaps casual sexual relation- been anyone who was involved. A Fine Gael or ship. He was murdered by somebody with a track Independent Senator or Deputy could have been 1999 Budget Statement 2008: 5 December 2007. Statements 2000

[Senator Denis O’Donovan.] to inserting some reference to the prominence of abroad and had the same allegations made. It the apology in the section. should hurt us all. Following Government approval concerning What I have in mind does not mean Mrs. the decision to restore the Bill to the House, the Lawlor or her family or grandchildren should get Government decided that the Defamation Bill substantial damages. If on the following Sunday, should provide for equal prominence to be given however, the newspapers concerned were like- by publishers of offers of apologies to make minded in their editorials and front pages and amends to persons defamed as to the original admitted they got the story wrong, I would have defamatory statement. I am working on the greater respect for the media in general. matter and I intend to introduce proposals on For most of my life, Irish journalism in its tra- Report Stage. While considering that issue I will dition has been very fair-minded and balanced examine whether there is value in including a ref- overall. In the past ten to 15 years, unfortunately, erence to the promptness with which an apology with the input of particular tabloid press, some was given. On balance my instinct is that it is a newspapers are trying to out-do their British matter better left to the courts. However, I will counterparts. There is almost a competition on examine it. how low they can stoop. If there were greater On the wider issue raised by Senators Norris responsibility within the media, legislators could and O’Donovan about deceased persons, Senator act accordingly. Norris gave an example and I could give several I am very pleased about the Minister’s com- more. I do not wish to do so, however, out of ments about the Lawlor saga in particular. A respect for the feelings of the families involved. Fianna Fa´il Ard-Fheis took place that weekend They were all published in Irish newspapers. It is and the incident was a body blow. a deplorable tendency and is completely at vari- 2 o’clock The reporting was appalling. It might ance with our traditions as a people. I am deter- be five or ten years before such legis- mined to deal with the matter as I have said to lation will be revisited. I do not take away in any the media organisations. Mr. Horgan should be way from the lady in Ukraine who was an given an opportunity to address it as Senator O’Donovan indicated. However, if he does not, I interpreter and was wronged. Thankfully for her do not intend to postpone the issue to some she was able to use the Irish system to get sub- indefinite future date. stantial damages. I am sure in Ukraine or Russia she would not have got one cent. They would Senator Alex White: On the basis of what the probably have told her to go away and get lost. Minister has said I will withdraw my amendment. Out of courtesy and respect the very least those However, I may revisit it at a later stage. newspapers should have done, including broad- sheet newspapers — they were not all tabloids, Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. was apologise the following Sunday at editorial level. That is where the Press Council of Ireland Amendments Nos. 14 and 15 not moved. and the press ombudsman will have a leading role to play. Section 22 agreed to. The Minister is right to stand back on the Priv- acy Bill. I listened to Mr. Horgan the other day. Progress reported; Committee to sit again. He is a very capable person with an interesting background. I hope the press council will be able Sitting suspended at 2.05 p.m. and resumed at to work without the need to interfere, prod or 6 p.m. wave the stick if people step out of line. If the media can in some way self-regulate and be Budget Statement 2008: Statements. responsible, they will do a great justice and An Cathaoirleach: I welcome the Minister of obviously will save themselves a great deal of State to the House. money. Minister of State at the Department of Finance Deputy Brian Lenihan: On Senator Alex (Deputy Noel Ahern): I welcome this oppor- White’s technical amendment, I come back to my tunity to present to Seanad E´ ireann key features core point that the timeframe is supervised by the of today’s budget. This is the first unified budget court. The newspaper or publisher has an incen- which brings together the resources available and tive to give a quick apology because that will the various demands for expenditure. reduce the person’s damages. That is the best Today, the Ta´naiste and Minister for Finance incentive. Senator Regan said the section refers announced a budget which is prudent, progressive only to actions and not to the promptness of the and inclusive. In the last 12 months the global apology. It refers to an apology before or after an environment has altered and a number of down- action has been instituted which may be well after side risks have emerged. Continued economic the original offending article or broadcast. I will and employment growth will depend on how we consider the issue. I signal to the House that on respond to these changes and risks. This budget Report Stage I will revisit this section with a view has been structured to strengthen the economy’s 2001 Budget Statement 2008: 5 December 2007. Statements 2002 capacity and retain its flexibility. This will allow ary pressures, the Government has prioritised us to respond effectively to this new, more chal- capital infrastructure. The new multi-annual capi- lenging economic environment and to be in a tal envelope for each Vote group was published position to take advantage of whatever oppor- today and shows that capital expenditure is to be tunities may emerge. maintained at an average of 6% of GNP over the The Government’s objective is to maintain sus- next five years. The capital investment prog- tainable growth while continuing to implement a ramme for 2008 will therefore be over \8.6 billion responsible fiscal policy. Government policy is and will focus on transport, education, housing focused on maintaining and improving public and environmental services. services today while also planning and building A total of \3.8 billion gross expenditure has for the future. The Government’s key priorities been provided today for transport. Of this, \1.7 are therefore, responsible management of the billion will be invested to improve our national public finances, delivering a challenging public roads network which is essential for long-term infrastructure investment programme, caring for economic and social prosperity. Almost \1 billion the less well-off, strengthening education and will be invested in our public transport system. training and protecting the environment. Today’s The remainder will be allocated to improve our budget will protect the incomes of the vulnerable, non-national roads, regional airports and ports. support ordinary working people, promote our Road safety is also a high priority area. The high environmental goals and help home-buyers and number of fatalities and serious injuries on our boost the economy. roads is a matter of ongoing concern for all of us. The global economy has remained strong this A total of \44 million has been allocated to the year and world GDP is estimated to grow by Road Safety Authority in 2008 to help bring more than 5%. However, financial turbulence, down these numbers. increasing oil prices, the slowing US and UK There has been a major financial investment to economies and currency fluctuations, particularly improve our water services infrastructure in the the weakening dollar, all present strong downside previous and current national development plans. risks for 2008. The Irish economy has also perfor- In 2008, \471 million will be allocated. This med strongly in 2007 and GDP growth is investment will finance schemes throughout the expected to be around 4.8%. While housing country, including major schemes for supply to investment has moderated this year, other invest- Dublin, Limerick, Donegal, Kildare Portlaoise, ment activity, including NDP spending, continues Waterford and Castlebar. to perform well. Taking account of external and In the past three years, the Government has domestic risks, GDP is therefore forecast to grow provided over \2 billion in education infrastruc- by 3% in 2008. ture. This has provided 28 new schools and major Employment growth has been a major success refurbishment and extensions in existing schools. story for Ireland and the Government estimates In 2008, capital investment will be \828 million. that 72,000 net new jobs will be created in 2007. Over \594 million will be used to provide accom- Non-Irish nationals now account for nearly 12% modation for 13,000 extra children next year of the labour force. The unemployment rate aver- while \184 million will provide for infrastructural aged 4.5% in the first three quarters of the year investment at third level. and this compares well with other countries in the I am also pleased to see that an area for which eurozone. The current position should be com- I had responsibility for some five years, namely, pared with ten years ago when the unemployment housing policy, has been provided with a record rate was over 10%. Exchequer provision in 2008 of more than \1.7 Our future success depends on our willingness billion. Taken together with non-Exchequer and ability to enhance the competitiveness of the financing, the overall housing package totals Irish economy in all sectors. We are no longer a approximately \2.5 billion. low cost economy. Therefore competitiveness This increased funding is in line with the hous- must be strengthened through increased pro- ing commitments contained in Towards 2016 and ductivity, particularly in the services sector and demonstrates the Government’s determination to through innovation and quality improvements. honour these obligations in full. It will allow for It is in the context of this economic envir- the commencement of a significant number of onment that budget 2008 has been framed. new social housing units. Work will progress Although circumstances have changed since the under the regeneration programmes, including pre-budget outlook was published in October, the ongoing redevelopment of Ballymun, as well theTa´naiste has increased provision in a number as bringing to completion a large number of units of key areas. However, to achieve this, he has under both the local authority and voluntary planned for a general Government deficit of 0.9% housing programmes. In total, it is expected that of GDP for 2008. programme output will amount to some 9,000 In January this year, the Ta´naiste launched the homes in 2008. The funding will also support the National Development Plan 2007-2013. The plan delivery of 5,500 new affordable homes. In sets out the Government’s investment strategy addition, funding will also be maintained for the for our economic and social infrastructure over provision of Traveller and homeless accom- the medium term. Despite the tightening budget- modation. 2003 Budget Statement 2008: 5 December 2007. Statements 2004

[Deputy Noel Ahern.] has been allocated to REPS 4, which will benefit Ireland must respond to the challenge of nearly 60,000 farmers. climate change and take steps to meet our Kyoto Farm taxation changes announced today commitments. In the Budget Statement, the include a new relief from capital gains tax on the Ta´naiste provided a carbon report in line with the dissolution of farm partnerships and the relief will undertaking in the programme for Government. run for a period of five years. In addition, the He reported that currently, Ireland’s greenhouse Ta´naiste made arrangements to allow farmers gas emissions amounted to some 70 million who receive diversification aid under the sugar tonnes annually based on the latest available beet compensation package to spread the pay- data. ments for income tax purposes over six years. The In the past two budgets, tax and expenditure farmers flat rate addition for VAT is being measures were introduced in this area. Today, the retained at 5.2% for 2008. Ta´naiste and Minister for Finance introduced Fishing plays a critically important role in our major changes to vehicle registration tax and coastal communities. However, to ensure a sus- motor tax. The vehicle registration tax rate avail- tainable fishing industry there is a need for able to cars registered on or after 1 July will be restructuring and a reduction of the number of based on the CO2 emission rating of the car and fishing boats. A total of \21 million is being allo- not the engine size. There will be seven VRT cated in 2008 for a decommissioning scheme for rates, ranging from 14% to 36%, with the higher- fishing vessels and the tax code will be amended emitting cars paying more. Existing incentives for to help maximise the take-up of the decom- certain hybrid electric and flexible fuel cars will missioning payments. be extended to 30 June 2008 and after this date, The Government is committed to ensuring sig- there will be a further top-up relief to \2,500 on nificant improvements in the quality and delivery the VRT payable on these cars. Electric cars and of health services. The provision for health next electric mopeds will be exempt from VRT from year has been increased by 7.6% to almost \16.2 1 January 2008. billion. This includes new funding of \276 million On motor tax, the Minister for the Envir- for a range of health developments, including onment, Heritage and Local Government has services for the elderly, for people with dis- proposed an increase in motor tax rates of 9.5% abilities and for children. An additional \110 mil- for cars below 2.5 litres and 22% for larger cars lion has been provided for the introduction in from 1 February 2008. In addition, it is intended 2008 of the nursing home support scheme, A Fair that the Minister for the Environment, Heritage Deal, which will bring the total public expendi- and Local Government will bring forward a pro- ture for nursing home care for the elderly to \920 posal to link motor tax to CO2 emissions instead million. An additional \50 million is being pro- of engine size for new cars from 1 July 2008. The vided for the disability sector. This is in line with Ta´naiste has also provided for the National Trea- the budget 2005 multiannual investment prog- sury Management Agency to purchase carbon ramme towards the implementation of the Dis- credits through the carbon fund. ability Act 2005. A total of \29 million in The State energy companies will invest \1.7 additional funding will be provided for the expan- billion in 2008. This will be mainly in electricity sion of cancer care services, while additional and gas transmission and in distribution networks funding of approximately \87 million will fund in new and modernised power generation and immunisation programmes and other health care wind energy projects. The Exchequer will provide improvements. \86 million for energy in 2008, which is almost The abuse of drugs is of major concern to our double the 2005 investment, and this demon- society and today the Ta´naiste provided an extra strates the Government’s commitment in this \12.5 million, in addition to the provision in the area. In addition to the \150 million planned in pre-budget outlook, to facilitate the implemen- the national development plan for energy tation of the national drugs strategy rehabilitation research, the Ta´naiste has allocated a further report. This will ensure the expansion and \13.2 million for this purpose. A specific focus of strengthening of the local drugs task forces and the research will be to develop alternatives for for the roll-out of services to new commuter belt renewable energy from ocean sources. A total of towns, mainly in Leinster. From midnight tonight, \13 million has also been provided for energy the excise duty on cigarettes will increase by 30 conservation. cent per pack of 20, inclusive of VAT, with pro Farming plays a number of important roles. rata increases on other tobacco products. This These include contributing to economic growth, measure has been introduced to promote sustaining rural communities and conserving our improved public health and should be welcomed. environment. A number of measures have been Ireland’s ability to respond quickly and effec- introduced to support agriculture and help farm- tively to technology advances in recent years has ers meet the standards in the EU nitrates provided a significant boost to economic and directives. Due to the successful take-up of the employment growth. Positioning ourselves at the farm waste management scheme, an increase of frontier of new advances will be important if we \35 million was announced to bring the provision are to achieve and maintain competitive advan- to \150 million for 2008. In addition, \370 million tage in specific areas. Major ongoing investment 2005 Budget Statement 2008: 5 December 2007. Statements 2006 in science and technology will be required to support is continued in the 2008 budget with a ensure we can exploit emerging advances. To this further allocation of \25 million for elder care, end, the budget provides for an increase of \36.5 including the provision of home care packages million, bringing the total investment in this area and other community support services. The dur- to almost \300 million in 2008. This will fund con- ation of payment of the national fuel scheme will tinued investment in basic research in centres for increase by one week, to 30 weeks, commencing science, technology and engineering and in stra- from April 2008. tegic research clusters. The budget also provides The Ta´naiste has provided for an increase of for \133 million for current science, technology \14 per week, to \221.80, in the minimum rate and innovation expenditure for higher education of maternity benefit and adoptive benefit from research. January 2008. Child benefit rates will increase by The announced enhancement of the research \6 per month for each of the first and second and development tax credit scheme is a comp- qualifying children, to \166 per month, and by \8 lementary measure to the Government spending per month for each subsequent qualifying child, on science, technology and innovation. The base to \203 per month, effective from April 2008. year which is used to calculate expenditure on The upper income threshold for entitlement to research and development is being fixed at 2003 the one-parent family payment will increase by for a further four years to 2013. This will provide \25 per week to \425 from May 2008. Family greater certainty to industry in respect of the income supplement income thresholds will scheme. increase by \10 per week in respect of each child. A total of \84 million in additional funding has The back-to-school clothing and footwear been provided for overseas development assist- allowance will increase by \20 to \200 in respect ance, ODA. This will bring our total ODA contri- of each child aged two to 11 and by \20 to \305 bution to \914 million, or 0.54% of GNP, in 2008. in respect of each child aged 12 and over. The Ireland’s target ODA contribution ratio is 0.7% widowed parent grant is being increased by of GNP in 2012. \2,000 to \6,000, effective from today. The The Government is committed to ensuring that Family Support Agency will be provided with the less well-off also benefit from today’s budget. additional funding for marriage, child and The total cost of the social welfare improvements bereavement counselling, research projects and announced today will be \957 million in 2008 and other services. The money advice and budgeting \980 million in a full year. Maximum weekly per- service, MABS, will be provided with additional sonal rates for contributory, transition and funding for training and additional support to related social insurance State pensions will MABS companies. increase by \14 per week, while the maximum A key feature of recent budgets has been to personal weekly rate for the non-contributory reward work through a fairer and more progress- State pension will increase by \12 per week. This ive tax policy. One element of this was to keep brings the State contributory pension to \223.30 the lower income groups outside the tax net. This per week and the State non-contributory pension approach has been maintained in this budget and to \212 per week. In addition, the social the measures announced today will keep 32,600 insurance qualified adult allowance for claimants income earners outside the tax net. The personal of pension age has been increased by \27, to tax credit for a single person has been increased bring it to \200 per week. by \70 and \140 for a married couple. The In recognition of the importance and the con- employee tax credit will also increase by \70 per tribution of carers, the carer’s allowance and annum. The entry point for a single person on carer’s benefit will increase by \14 per week and PAYE has increased from \17,600 to \18,300 and the respite care grant also has been increased by the PRSI and health levy entry points have also \200 to \1,700. All other personal social welfare increased accordingly. rates will increase by \12 per week and this will The 20% standard income tax band is being bring the lowest full adult social welfare rate to widened by \1,400 per annum to \35,400 for a \197.80 per week. There will be proportionate single earner and \44,400 for a married couple increases for people on reduced rates. In general, with one earner. For married couples with two rates will increase from the first week of earners the band will be \70,800. As the 2008 pro- January 2008. jected average industrial wage is \34,000, this Services for older people are an immediate should keep the liability of those on average earn- priority for the Government. The Government’s ings at the standard rate. commitment to older people is set out in the lat- Other increases in personal tax credits include est partnership agreement, Towards 2016, and the following. Tax credit for an incapacitated reinforced by the commitment of \9.7 billion in child will increase by \660 to \3,660 per annum, the national development plan. Over the last two the home carer tax credit is being increased to years, the Government has added \400 million to \900 per annum and age credit will increase by services for older people, which is targeted pri- \50 to \325 for a single person and by \100 for a marily at community supports for the elderly. married couple. The age exemption has also These include the provision of home care pack- being increased to \20,000 and \40,000 respec- ages, home helps and day and respite care. This tively and the allowance for trade union subscrip- 2007 Budget Statement 2008: 5 December 2007. Statements 2008

[Deputy Noel Ahern.] Currently there is a five-year rule to avoid tions will be increased from \300 to \350 per clawback of exemption where the owner moves annum. out and lets the property. This has now been As a result of today’s budget, the number of reduced to two years. These measures were earners who will be outside the tax net in 2008 designed to simplify the system, to improve the will be more than 878,000. The total cost of the efficiency of the housing market, to support income tax, PRSI and health levy measures will employment and to boost confidence and econ- be \432 million in 2008 and \585 million in a omic activity. Under this heading, the income tax full year. relief on rent payments will be increased by 11% The small company tax liability threshold for . Finally, the threshold for the rent-a-room the payment of preliminary tax on the simpler scheme will be increased from \7,620 to \10,000. prior-year basis is to be increased from \150,000 This budget was framed in the context of to \200,000. The tax liability threshold at which change both in the global and domestic economy. preliminary tax is not payable has been increased The Ta´naiste and Minister for Finance has intro- from \150,000 to \200,000 for new start-ups. duced a budget which is broad in its reach and Small business VAT registration thresholds have generous, particularly in the areas of social wel- been increased to \37,500 per annum for services fare and home purchase. The approach taken has and \75,000 for goods from 1 May 2008. This will been clear and decisive, which can only benefit take 2,700 businesses out of the VAT system. our economy in the uncertain times ahead. The stamp duty charge on financial cards will be reduced. For credit cards it will be reduced by Senator Liam Twomey: The budget shows how 25% to \30; for combined cards, by 50% to \10 misguided or misleading the Government was at and for ATM and debit cards, by 50% to \5. the previous election, because our expectations However, there will be an increased duty on are not being fulfilled. We were told the good cheques from 15 cent to 30 cent per cheque. This times, which date back a decade, would continue supports the shift from paper to electronic as long as Fianna Fa´il was back into power. transactions. Fianna Fa´il was voted back into Government, but we have gone from a surplus of \3 billion in the Gross expenditure for the justice area will total previous budget to an expected deficit of \2 almost \2.7 billion in 2008. This major investment billion at the end of next year. That is a serious will fund a range of developments. These include dent to anybody’s credibility in terms of prudent continued expansion of the Garda Sı´ocha´na to a financial management of the economy. It is evi- total of more than 14,200 fully-attested Garda by dent the Government has utterly failed in what it end-2008, delivery of a modern communications was supposed to do in terms of balancing the system and other measures to support the fight \ budget and getting its figures right. against crime. Additional funding of 5 million is The economy appears to be okay in the sense being provided for social inclusion initiatives. In \ that income tax receipts are up, which could addition, 14 million is being allocated to the mean we are taxing people too much. As every- Prison Service for its building programme and for body knows, the tax receipts showed more people the roll-out of a new communications system. paid the higher rate of tax than the standard rate. The housing market has slowed in recent Taking the European Union as a whole, it is months. Contributory factors include higher unusual that the majority of people are paying interest rates, tighter credit control and changing income tax at the higher rate. Corporate tax consumer sentiment. Acknowledging the import- receipts are also down which does not bode well ance of the construction sector to our economy, for the future if something happens to the econ- today’s budget includes a range of measures omy. One can well ask whether the Government designed to support rather than unsettle the knows what is going on. market. Mortgage interest relief has been The big story of the economy is the collapse in increased for first-time buyers by \2,000, to stamp duty receipts which has resulted from the \10,000 for a single person and by \4,000 to slowdown of construction industry activity. The \20,000 for a married couple. relatively small adjustment in our economy has The most significant improvement today is the resulted in Government finances being com- major reform of stamp duty. Property valued at pletely thrown off predictions in the space of six less than \1 million will be charged stamp duty to nine months. This is an indication that Fianna on the basis that the first \125,000 will be exempt Fa´il’s mismanagement of the economy is slowly from tax and the balance will be charged at 7%. strangling the Celtic tiger. In some respects it Purchasers of houses valued at more than \1 mil- appears that Fianna Fa´il and its Government lion will be charged at 9% on the portion of the partners did not manage the economy well in price in excess of \1 million. The effective rate recent years and that this was covered up due to on most homes will be well below the headline the large receipts from income tax, VAT and cor- rate and the maximum effective rate up to \1 mil- porate tax. As a result of Government misman- lion valuation is 6.5%. The current exemptions agement, the underlying problems were not for first-time buyers and buyers of new homes addressed. That does not bode well for the com- will be retained. ing years. Now that the Government’s poor finan- 2009 Budget Statement 2008: 5 December 2007. Statements 2010 cial management of the economy has been Senator Liam Twomey: ——without feeling exposed, we are in for a harsh few years. any shame. Will the Green Party members of The economic downturn cannot all be blamed Government push for changes to the type of cars on the global situation. The biggest story, Ministers drive? The Green Party Ministers are however, is the Government’s mismanagement of embarrassed to be driven around in cars that are the economy and the fact that fundamentals were not environmentally friendly but why do they not not dealt with in the past years. We expected put the same pressure on their Government col- more of that from this budget. It is easy to talk leagues? They should lead from the top rather about the way money will be spent, especially than expect everybody else to do it. The Govern- when the Minister is borrowing money again to ment talks about the great changes to VRT and spend, but very little has been said about account- protecting the environment but it will be ability, reform and the way taxpayers’ money interesting to see if there are fewer Mercs at the should be spent, priorities expressed on this side back of Merrion Square this time next year. of the House for a number of years. The Govern- On pensions, in the past few weeks, even since ment refused to do anything about that in recent we had a debate on the issue in the House, there years and we are now paying the price. has been a collapse in the value of pensions of Regarding the major emphasis on the national people in the private sector, yet in this budget the development plan, the Government should Government will have to borrow some of the \1.7 clearly state what it intends to do in the national billion it put aside for public sector pensions, development plan. It should not say it intends to including their own, next year. A concession can spend \1 billion here or \900 million there or that be made regarding the hardship everyone will it will allocate \13 million for the development experience in the next few years if Ministers of wave power. Those are the only areas we can reject the pay award they gave themselves some identify, the small money, so to speak. We want weeks ago. What is happening in the country is to know where the big money is being spent and insulting to people. the Minister of State should ask the Minister what The big story of this budget is that the Govern- is going on in that regard. ment has left it too late. Stamp duty reform has come too late. There already has been a massive Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: Hear, hear. lack of confidence in the housing market.

Senator Liam Twomey: Another factor is that, Senator Eugene Regan: Hear, hear. as Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Cowen has increased current public spending from 25% to Senator Liam Twomey: The soft landing that 31% of GNP. The Minister is taking us back to was talked about for many months is not hap- the late 1970s and early 1980s. In the late 1980s pening. We must face up to reality now. The it was decided by the leadership of both Fianna housing market is in a serious mess. The Minister Fa´il and Fine Gael that such spending was unsus- should stop talking like an auctioneer and tell the tainable yet the Government is letting public truth to the people of Ireland. There are prob- spending run riot. There is no reform or sus- lems in the housing market. We must deal with tainability in the economy and we will run into them but the Government is too late in respect major problems in future years unless something of stamp duty reform. happens in that regard. There is a certain mockery in terms of the Senator Eugene Regan: Hear, hear. budget delivered today in the way the Minister relates to the other citizens in the country. We Senator Liam Twomey: In regard to carbon tax are all supposed to clap for the extra \12 on the and VRT, again the Minister has left it too late. non-contributory pension and the extra \14 on We must reduce our emissions to 63 million the contributory pension. The value of a mother tonnes of carbon to meet our Kyoto commit- or father who stays at home to care for their chil- ments. When did the Minister find out about dren in the eyes of the State is \18 per week. The that? Was it yesterday? Currently we are at 70 value of a pregnant mother is \14 per week. The million, yet it is only now the Minister talks about lowest full adult social welfare rate is now \197.80 climate change and changing VRT. It is as if the but that must be viewed in the context that only Government woke up yesterday morning only to a few weeks ago the Minister awarded himself a be told we are supposed to reduce our emissions \700 pay increase, in addition to his \5,500 a to 63 million tonnes in the next four or five years. week. The \13 million for investment in wave power The car tax changes indicate the same sort of research and development will not make a huge disconnect Ministers have with the general public. difference. If we are serious about the issue we When one is driven around in a car and one does must be proactive in terms of what we are to do not have to pay for the driver, the petrol, the about it. The Government will be borrowing diesel or the motor tax, it is easy to slap another money next year to buy carbon credits because tax on to the general public—— we failed to deal with our commitments to reduc- ing our carbon footprint. Unless the Green Party Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: Hear, hear. comes up with some means of dealing with cattle 2011 Budget Statement 2008: 5 December 2007. Statements 2012

[Senator Liam Twomey.] in the past, was to introduce VAT on children’s expressing methane in the fields of Ireland, this shoes for fear that women might have small feet. country will face a serious crisis. I wish I had more time to deal with the serious Senator Joe O’Reilly: The Senator has a short concerns about the health service, the educational memory. services and all the other promises made. Whether it is medical cards, new hospitals or new Senator Marc MacSharry: Those are the facts. schools we will see a serious reduction in the next Thank God for the late great Jim Kemmy and few years unless the Government faces up to one Fianna Fa´il—— responsibility. It must start the reform that has been talked about for so long. It must make Senator Jerry Buttimer: Where did the sur- everybody accountable in that regard and we plus go? might just save enough money to invest properly in our public services because the same amount of Senator Marc MacSharry: ——who took down money will not be available in the coming years. that Government, which is what it deserved. The Opposition should not tell us what should or Senator Marc MacSharry: Now that the could have been done because when faced with applause is over, I am delighted to have the the opportunity — not Senator Twomey because opportunity to make some comments on the he was an Independent at that time—— budget delivered earlier. I welcome the Minister of State to the House. I am delighted to see a Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: Fianna Fa´il has queue of speakers on the opposite side of the squandered our opportunity. House, no doubt to welcome what is probably the best budget since 1987-89. An Cathaoirleach: Senators. Senator Marc MacSharry: Nevertheless, Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: Come on, nobody has achieved more in terms of delivering Marc. to the people of this country than Fianna Fa´il in Government. An Cathaoirleach: Senator MacSharry, with- out interruption. Senator Jerry Buttimer: The Government squandered it. Senator Marc MacSharry: I will start my contri- bution by stating a few facts. Senator Marc MacSharry: Those are the facts. I wholeheartedly support, on behalf of my Senator Jerry Buttimer: Send in the clowns. Fianna Fa´il colleagues — Senator Boyle of the Green Party will join us later — and the Progress- Senator Marc MacSharry: I did not interrupt ive Democrats, the Minister, Deputy Cowen, in anybody on the other side of the House. respect of a budget that has introduced a number of significant packages at the right time. We have An Cathaoirleach: I would appreciate it if faced a challenging international environment in Members listened to the speaker. recent times. When somebody sits down and sets out projections or a manifesto for an election, for Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: That type of example, they do it based on the best data avail- statement invites interruptions. able at that time. When circumstances change however, on this side of the House we change our Senator Marc MacSharry: Despite the standard minds. What does the Opposition do when cir- annual rhetoric we have heard from the cumstances change? Opposition—— Senator Liam Twomey: Is that a U-turn? Senator Jerry Buttimer: Where did the sur- plus go? Senator Marc MacSharry: No, it is not a U- turn. Senator Marc MacSharry: ——nobody has con- tributed more, across all of the headings Senator An Cathaoirleach: Senator MacSharry without Twomey mentioned, than Fianna Fa´il in Govern- interruption. ment since the foundation of the State. That is a fact. It may be a painful one when one is sitting Senator Marc MacSharry: This budget contains on the Opposition benches but it is a fact never- increases across all the relevant headings at a theless. It pains me to hear Deputy Twomey pour time when growth is below what has been the water on the significant increases, in what are dif- trend of recent times. The Minister successfully ficult international and national circumstances, in managed to do that. He has got the balance right social welfare payments. It must be remembered in terms of watching current expenditure while that the only innovation on the part of this Oppo- also ensuring, not through taxation but through sition in Government, when the chips were down moderate borrowing, that there will be continued 2013 Budget Statement 2008: 5 December 2007. Statements 2014 progress in the capital programme. This will help Senator Marc MacSharry: This is a budget of to maintain momentum and employment and, investment in our future. It is about promoting above all, maintain and increase our attractive- and protecting the environment. It introduces ness to foreign direct investment and ensure the measures which do not penalise people for sup- growth of the regions and economic growth porting the environment but incentivises them to generally. realise their responsibilities for the future. This Having examined the package of reforms, I planet is not just for us and the Fianna Fa´il, Fine greatly welcome the measures for the most vul- Gael and other parties of today but for our chil- nerable and least well off in our society. They dren and their children. In that context I welcome amount to \980 million. That is a difficult figure the package of reforms in VRT and the inno- for a group of parties whose best innovation when vations in the BES scheme. These not only estab- the chips were down was VAT on shoes. It may lish incentives in terms of carbons and vehicle have been a long time ago—— taxation but also incentivise the business com- munity by encouraging entrepreneurs to come up Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: The Senator is with measures and innovations that will help us stuck. to protect the environment from the many threats it faces. Senator Marc MacSharry: ——but I remember The level of expenditure and investment in the it well. Thank God for democracy. Thank God capital programme is still unprecedented in his- the people have seen sense on a consistent basis torical terms. As a Member from the west, I wel- and realise there is no substitute for experience come the fact that the first stage of the western and delivery, as has been evident from 1987 to rail corridor will be completed and I look forward now. Certainly, economic circumstances have to when, as is Government policy—— changed nationally and internationally. Whether it is the result of genius or his experience in so Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: It will eventu- many Departments—— ally get to Sligo.

Senator Liam Twomey: I cannot cope with this. Senator Marc MacSharry: ——it reaches Sligo. Senator Healy Eames is aware of my commit- Senator Marc MacSharry: ——we have seen ment to that. With regard to taxation, we have the Minister deliver a budget that looks after the again tried to ensure that people on the lowest most vulnerable in society while establishing an incomes are either kept out of the tax net or pay economic environment that will allow the econ- the minimum amount of tax. This is most omy to grow at sustainable levels. I welcome that. important and must be welcomed. There are very significant increases in the non- Approximately 80% of budget expenditure is contributory pension. in the areas of health, education and social wel- fare. To be able to do that in a far more challeng- Senator Jerry Buttimer: Paltry. ing environment than has existed for the past ten years is a credit to the Minister, his officials and Senator Marc MacSharry: What was the the Government. It would be ridiculous of the increase from the Senator’s party in 1982? Opposition not to admit that, at least. As a prac- tising auctioneer I welcome the changes in stamp Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: That was a duty. They have been carried out in an innovative totally different environment. and clever way to ensure the benefits reach those who most require attention, including first-time Senator Marc MacSharry: What was it in 1993? buyers and people at the lower end of the market. The average house price is \370,000; it is less in Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: The Senator the regions. There is something in the changes for should stick with today. everybody. It was necessary to inject an element of confidence in the market. It is a statement that Senator Marc MacSharry: We must deal with the indicators of this economy are still impressive the facts. This is an extraordinary level of inter- in an international context, notwithstanding the ruption, a Chathaoirligh. I was respectful and international pressures. I welcome those changes quiet as I listened to the Opposition and I hope they and the changes in tax relief for spokesperson—— mortgages will help the housing market. Given the nature of the debate, I do not have Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: The Senator is time to go through all the areas on which I wish not making sense. to comment. This is a budget which, as a member of Fianna Fa´il and a representative of the Senator Marc MacSharry: ——and I intend to Government side of the House, I am proud to be until the end of the debate. state has given priority to the most vulnerable in our society. That is welcome and is in the Fianna An Cathaoirleach: When a Member is speaking Fa´il tradition. I am proud of that. In difficult cir- I ask the other Members to listen. cumstances it has ensured, through the capital 2015 Budget Statement 2008: 5 December 2007. Statements 2016

[Senator Marc MacSharry.] However, these are no longer the most important programme and with moderate borrowing, that priority in getting Ireland ready for the future. As we can maintain momentum and create employ- I have said here before, our number one priority ment and economic growth. Above all, it has should now be education. Education does get a made a significant start in confronting the great look-in in the national development plan and it challenges we face in protecting the environment. also features in the spending plans announced It combines a number of measures, which we today, but not to anything like the required must all buy into through our choices and the extent. If we are to prepare properly for the incentives offered in the budget, to contribute to medium and long-term future we must invest a the preservation of our environment. lot more in education. Investment in education is mentioned in the budget and it was talked about Senator Feargal Quinn: With the permission of today, but not to the extent I would like. the House I will share time with Senator Norris. When it came down to what sort of marks I I look forward to this debate each year. When would give this year, I decided to give honours. I was at school I always wanted to be a school However, I am not going to give top marks inspector or examiner, and I look forward to act- because of insufficient investment in education ing as the budget examiner and giving marks for and the unacceptable reduction in overall public it. Last year, I gave the budget a pass and used expenditure. Had the Ta´naiste attended to these the term “could do better”. What is the mark this areas he would have got top marks, but he has year? This year’s budget was dull and boring, certainly received higher marks than in previous with no surprises and little innovation. Thank years. The Government cannot relax. The Mini- God for that, because that is what was needed. ster is receiving honours, but only just. We do not need dramatic changes. This year there was a new challenge for the Senator David Norris: I thank my colleague Government and Senator MacSharry has men- and friend, Senator Feargal Quinn, for allowing tioned it. There is a new environment inter- me time. I greatly enjoyed his schoolmasterly per- nationally and nationally. There was a danger of formance. I am sure the Ta´naiste and Minister the Government slamming on the brakes and for Finance, Deputy Brian Cowen, will be greatly being afraid to borrow. On this occasion the heartened to know he has received a better report Government chose sensible borrowing, and I will than in previous years. I also agree with Senator give it an acceptable mark for that. Competi- Quinn that the atmosphere in the Da´il was a little tiveness is the area that must be watched for the dull. The Budget Statement did not seem to pro- future. I am pleased that no steps were taken to voke anything like the outrage seen in previous damage that. I am particularly pleased with the years. There was a certain lack of atmosphere. investment in science, technology and research With regard to the general content, despite the and development. fact that it is dull, the balance has been got right. However, I am disappointed that no steps were It seems the Government is now waking up to the taken to cut public expenditure, an area where fact that there has been considerable squandering we face a real challenge as Senator Twomey men- of public money and a notable lack of account- tioned, particularly expenditure on pensions and ability, particularly in capital projects such as salaries. I am concerned about that because it will roads. A lot of money has been wasted. However, damage our competitiveness in the future. What I will not waste time, which is another precious was done with regard to stamp duty and the con- resource, by listing the areas in which there was struction industry was sensible. It is not dramatic a lack of prudent management, good governance but will encourage the housing and construction and oversight. We will revisit this area in the new sectors. On that basis, it is at an acceptable level. year, as we traditionally do. What about business and investment? The steps I have a sheaf of submissions made to all taken, in small ways, for small and medium sized Senators from the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, enterprises are acceptable and I would encour- the Disability Federation of Ireland and so on. I age them. am glad there was some degree of concern shown I was particularly pleased that there was no in this area. Yesterday I was speaking at the tinkering with foreign investment. We have had graduation ceremony of Enable Ireland at the the confidence of foreign investors in Ireland for Microsoft plant, in which sophisticated machinery the past 20 years because we have been able to is produced which allows people who are disabled say, “This is what you get if you come here. We to re-enter the workplace, where they can play a do not change direction mid way because of some significant economic role. This is a useful invest- other challenges outside.” I am pleased this was ment, because it costs many tens of thousands of the case today. From that point of view, I can give euros, for example, to retire somebody owing to the budget reasonably high marks. disability. For 80% of people with disabilities, I applaud the Minister’s commitment to deliver theirs is an acquired disability such as spinal in full the national development plan because this injury. That is very interesting. Almost 70% of should be a priority in our preparations for the those with disabilities remain unemployed. That future. Roads are important, as they always have is a huge figure compared with the equivalent in been, and so are other types of transport. continental countries. Anything that allows 2017 Budget Statement 2008: 5 December 2007. Statements (Resumed) 2018 people with disabilities to be productive members to see me about an aspect of the health services. of society is to be welcomed. As a result of lobbying, a particular service was I was sitting in the Gallery for the Budget made available to the public. The first thing to Statement. I noted that there was general allo- happen was that four managers were appointed. cation of \2.7 billion for rail and bus services. There were to be three staff to deliver the service, There was no mention whatever of the metro, but they were stuck because of the recruitment however, although the Luas was mentioned. I embargo. The delivery of this service has been hope this is not a sinister prelude to a dilution of sanctioned, the managers have been installed, but the metro programme. It is probably the most there is to be no service. The health system must vital element of transport for this capital city and be strenuously audited to prevent events such as it affects everybody in the country because such this. a disproportionate number of people live here. I There was also mention of housing. I welcome hope there will be a continued and firm commit- that there will be a reduction in stamp duty in the ment to this sensible development. lower end of the housing market. I also heard the The environmental tax and VRT provisions are Minister mention affordable housing. In his con- fine. However, the raising of motor tax for larger clusion he mentioned a “challenging backdrop” capacity vehicles is just grubbing around for a few and had a little checklist of features of the budget. extra pence. It has nothing whatever to do with These are all pretty good, and I agree with the environment. The Minister may nod his head Senator Quinn that the budget meets the chal- all he likes, but he will still be wrong. He is nod- lenge. The checklist states that the budget “sup- ding again, but I will remove the nod. The only ports the incomes of the vulnerable”. The Mini- way to implement the polluter pays principle is to ster seems to have done something there. It also put a tax on petrol. I have a large car. It is a states: “It keeps taxes low for working people.” beautiful car which I bought for \5,000. I keep it As somebody with a reasonable amount of in the garage and walk here almost every day. I money, I cannot disagree that the less well-off used to cycle until it became too dangerous. How should be more favoured. I will initial the report much pollution am I creating? A person in a Mini issued by the headmaster, Dr. Feargal Quinn, but creates a lot more if he or she uses it all the time. I will say again that I want more horse sense in A tax on petrol would affect the environment, but the small areas I have outlined. tax on large cars will not. This will affect poorer people. Debate adjourned. The doubling of duty on cheques is a stingy measure. The Minister said he wants to use this to Visit of Former Member. drive people to use automated systems and credit cards. However, elderly people and people who An Cathaoirleach: I welcome into the Dis- are a little bit thick, like me, use cheques. They tinguished Visitors Gallery former Deputy and do not want to use automated systems because Senator Charlie McDonald, a past Cathaoirleach they do not understand them. of the Seanad. He is very welcome.

Senators: Hear, hear. Senators: Hear, hear.

Senator David Norris: It is a mean thing to Budget Statement 2008: Statements (Resumed). raise the duty on cheques. It will not raise much money but will cause serious inconvenience. It Senator Dan Boyle: For the past five years I will also hit small businesses. I do not see any have had the privilege of being an Opposition virtue in it and it should be reconsidered. spokesperson responding to the speech of the Minister for Finance on budget day. It was a role An Cathaoirleach: The Senator is in his last I greatly enjoyed and I hope I performed it with minute. the appropriate level of responsibility. I noted in several of those speeches the trend of recent Senator David Norris: I hope not of this life. budgets — the seven that had been produced by What a frightful warning. the previous Minister for Finance, former Deputy Charlie McCreevy, and the three produced up to An Cathaoirleach: I meant the Senator was in today by the current Minister, Deputy Cowen. the last minute of his speech. Analysis carried out by the Combat Poverty Agency showed that the first six of those budgets Senator David Norris: I feel weak as a result of unashamedly favoured the better-off in our it. There is a section of the budget dealing with society, that the seventh was neutral, and that the health. It is fine that all this money is being spent, three produced by Deputy Cowen showed a but there should be an audit. What I am trend, which has continued into this year’s interested in is not how much money is being budget, of favouring the less well-off at the spent but whether it is being spent wisely. expense of the better-off. The first principle in Let me give an example to the Minister of drawing up any budget is to achieve this. The State. I spoke to a person the other day who came Minister must be congratulated. 2019 Budget Statement 2008: 5 December 2007. Statements (Resumed) 2020

[Senator Dan Boyle.] will have effect from 1 February 2007 to 1 July One of the reasons for our participation in 2008 and are the last throes of an old system. Government is the idea of index-linking the tax However, that system is one of local govern- system so that those on minimum wages are not ment’s main sources of funding. If people want caught within the tax net and those on average local government to be resourced properly, they industrial wages are not in the higher tax band. I must recognise it must be funded in this way. would like to see this achieved through legislation The proposed increases — 11.5% for cars of and being done automatically every year, but I more than 2.5 litres and 9.5% for cars under that am glad to see it has been done in this first budget size, which are good measurement criteria in of the new Administration. terms of social justice — are not excessive when The Minister needed to tick many boxes, the one takes into account that the rate of inflation first being social equity, which he addressed well. since these taxes were last raised in 2004 has The second box was that of getting the balance accumulated to 15%. People are paying pro- of future economic development portionally less for motor tax than at the time of 7 o’clock right to ensure increases in public the previous increase. expenditure were controlled, the cost An effort has been made not to endorse any of of living was met by all Departments’ allocations the scaremongering in the media in recent weeks. as far as possible and surpassed where necessary, The proposal for a short-term change in motor and capital expenditure on infrastructure taxation is sensible, sane and fair. The real addressed the gaps in our economy as soon as changes with the greatest environmental and possible. The overall increase in spending is social effects will come into effect on 1 July 2008 8.6%, comprising 8.2% in current expenditure when the VRT and motor taxation systems will and 12% in capital expenditure. The Minister merge into a carbon-based system. This will described the ability to rely on improved and encourage people buying new vehicles to shop increased research and development as an engine around for the most effective. A car labelling for future economic prosperity, a sub-theme of system will apply to every car, including imported the budget that will have a benefit in future. second-hand cars. On this basis, consumers will My party is most concerned about environmen- be given every assistance in ensuring not only will tal policy, in which we would like to see the most their money be spent to the best effect with the achieved. My party is a junior member of the State’s assistance, they will be given the best Government and by no stretch of the imagination choice in terms of helping the environment. is this a green budget, but it is the greenest budget My colleague will address the Green Party’s ever and has been influenced by the Green Party influence on the budget’s important social aspects significantly. While people might look at the later in the debate. Several references by the headline changes in tackling the growth in carbon Minister are the direct fulfilment of pledges in the emissions, those changes being in respect of VRT programme for Government. The commission on and motor tax, there are other aspects of the taxation was negotiated by the Green Party and budget that show what the green imprint has we welcome its establishment next year. We are achieved. The increases in expenditure in the delighted with the debate on how to achieve fair Departments of the Environment, Heritage and taxation. These comprise an important start. Local Government and Communications, Energy The Minister referred to commitments to be and Natural Resources are above the average — honoured from next year onwards, including the 13% and 25%, respectively. Some of their doubling of the income threshold for health cards subheads display how the Ministers are getting for children under six years of age and the tre- the funding for the policy areas in which they bling of the income threshold for people with an need to meet the programme for Government’s intellectual disability and who are under 18 years core commitment of reducing carbon emissions of age. These important social commitments were by 3% per year. The budgets of the Environmen- included in the programme for Government by tal Protection Agency and the national parks and the Green Party and we welcome that they are wildlife service have increased by 43% and well on their way towards implementation. 30%, respectively. By any criteria, this budget has Given prior constraints due to changes in the a green influence. international economy, this is a good and fair A plethora of smaller items litter today’s budget that shows the direction in which the budget, such as the exemption of bio-fuels from Government will go for the next four years. I am excise duties, the matter of changes to VRT happy to endorse the budget and congratulate the instead of the tax system in respect of hybrid Minister on the balance he has achieved. I look vehicles — a 50:50 split between electrical and forward to the provisions being added to by fuel-based — and a complete VRT exemption for future budgets. electrical vehicles. These measures are designed to give a choice. Senator Alan Kelly: I welcome the Minister of Those who want to question the Green Party’s State and his officials to the House. I will try to commitment will discuss how motor taxation go through the budget’s provisions in a fair- changes will hit motorists. The temporary minded way, the best way to do so. I will give changes in the current system of motor taxation praise and criticism where they are due. 2021 Budget Statement 2008: 5 December 2007. Statements (Resumed) 2022

I will not address the international and Non-residency tax loopholes allow millionaires domestic factors in the budget’s environment, but fictionally to live abroad and to get away without we all know that a major domestic factor is that paying substantial taxes. In an internal survey it of tax receipts, especially in respect of stamp duty was noted that 48 of the highest earners in the and the consequential roll-on. The figures and country paid less than 5% tax on their incomes. graphs are going down, which we must address None of these issues has been addressed by the within the environment in which the budget was budget, a matter the Green Party may wish to framed. This year’s growth rate is 4.25% whereas consider. next year’s is projected to be 3%, which is of The budget did not roll back on several stealth serious concern. taxes introduced in previous budgets. Raising the Inflation at its current level is an issue, partic- duty on cheques is mean as it hits mainly the eld- ularly as the prices of basic food items are always erly who may not be as financially sophisticated increasing. Inflation is running at twice the level when it comes to payments with electronic cards. described to workers when they signed up to The mortgage interest relief measures are to be Towards 2016, which provided for a 10% increase welcomed but have not gone far enough. PRSI, in 27 months. In many cases, employees are con- flagged by the Government on previous cerned by any increases in a budget, real or not. occasions, has not been dealt with. Why is it still We must worry about the projected increase in in place, and the health levy for that matter? unemployment levels to 5.5%. The concern is not Many low income workers pay as much in PRSI just unemployment, but the displacement of and health levies as they do in income tax. higher income jobs versus lower income jobs. I agree with Senator Twomey that while the Without going into too much detail, we knew changes to the stamp duty regime are welcome, that Fianna Fa´il’s pre-election promises on top they are too late. The current discourse on the and lower rates of tax, pensions and PRSI would housing market will take much to change. I not be met. cannot see the new measures doing that. The principal beneficiaries will not be those who buy Senator Dan Boyle: That was a single party’s average-priced houses but those buying at the policy. upper end. The mismanagement of the housing market is written all over this Budget Statement. Senator Alan Kelly: I listen intently to every The increased borrowing and limited tax and debate in the House, but Senator MacSharry’s social welfare packages reflect the hit the statement could have been on any budget. Exchequer has taken from the property slump. There was no detail. That he read the budget I am concerned that specific loopholes and dis- beggars belief. Complimenting the Senator’s crepancies in the tax code have not been namesake—— addressed. The sale of the Irish Glass site at Ringsend exposed a stamp duty loophole which Senator Marc MacSharry: I read the whole of has not been closed. the budget. I am concerned the vehicle registration tax measures are revenue neutral. Some officials in Senator Alan Kelly: I believed the Senator did the Department of Finance also have concerns not interrupt people. Complimenting his name- over it. The measures will not do much for hybrid sake of 20 years ago does not show any degree vehicles, considering the numbers of them. Motor of modesty. tax is simply a tax. It has no link to the envir- Senator Boyle went into detail, as he did onment and will not change behaviour. It is better unscripted on RTE, but he will find that this is if that is said straight. not a green budget. It is more of a parsley budget. There has been no movement for one-income I acknowledge and welcome the changes to the families or on the PAYE tax credit, thus penalis- budget’s procedure. It is a much better way of ing them on the double. This should be changed doing our business to set out the spending of var- and I had hoped the budget would recognise this. ious Departments at this point. We need to It seems, however, that individualisation will acknowledge where spending is going, however, remain a policy of this Government. and in some cases that is hard to work out from I lament the PAYE tax credit not being amal- the figures presented. gamated with the individual credit for those who The changes to income tax are aimed to keep are self-employed. Many, self-employed workers, wages in line with inflation. While they will have especially in the construction industry, cannot some effect, I am concerned some people will not avail of it. It is touch and go to call them self- enter the top level of tax, primarily because they employed because in many cases they work under do not have the level of income required. This is contract for someone else. largely owing to the various types of jobs and the I do not believe some of the social welfare way employers use part-time employment to increases will keep up with inflation. I welcome minimise workers’ hours and pay. I am concerned the increase in the incapacitated child benefit. that in the current economic climate these However, there has been no move on fuel changes will not keep wages in line with inflation. allowance. 2023 Budget Statement 2008: 5 December 2007. Statements (Resumed) 2024

Senator Dan Boyle: Yes, there has been. Last year, Senator Quinn gave the budget a pass at a time with a high Exchequer surplus Senator Alan Kelly: Not one worth talking which led to high expectations. This year there about. It only covers 29 weeks of the year. was no surplus but prudent borrowing of 0.9% of gross national product for which the Minister got Senator Dan Boyle: It has been increased to honours. It proves that what is done with the cover 30 weeks. available moneys is how people will assess a budget. Senator Alan Kelly: It has been increased by It is an excellent budget because it has dealt one week — gee whiz. The increases in social wel- with smaller items in a positive way. It has cleared fare benefits are \12 per week instead of the the way for corporate tax to be paid at different recommended \20 per week. Child benefit only times to suit businesses. It has reduced the duty goes up by \6 which will be below inflation. If on bank and credit cards and made positive con- pensions are to rise to \300, they needed an tributions to the green challenge, including increase of \14 per week. There has been no vehicle registration tax, VRT, on which the Mini- change in medical card status as well as in the ster is to be commended. dependant spouse pension and mobility People worried that house prices were far allowance. higher than people realistically could be prepared Vision was necessary for the preschool edu- to pay and the collapse of sub-prime lending in cation area. The child-minding cap of \15,000 the American market raised further questions remains, which is unacceptable. There has been about the stability of the housing market. The no movement on stock relief or installation aid Minister has taken the opportunity to deal with for farmers. The recruitment of extra teachers this on two levels, by significantly increasing seems to be behind schedule. The spending on mortgage interest relief, which is welcome, and health care raises serious concerns, particularly by making allowance for first-time purchasers to from the point of view of cancer services. avoid the clawback on stamp duty relief after the first two years of purchase rather than the first I agree with the capital investment programme five. This reflects the mobile nature of society as at many levels but I am concerned at funding for people move to work in different parts of the training programmes. I welcome the small and country and is a small but significant item for medium enterprises incentives. There has been those whom it affects. In addition to the timely no reform to public and Civil Service pension changes in stamp duty, it will give the added areas which would allow for decentralisation. I impetus necessary to the market.. There was a presume decentralisation has not been mentioned significant and continuing bounce in the world in the budget because its progress levels are equity markets at 3.30 p.m. today which indicates minimal. that confidence is returning. By this time next I am concerned the new proposals for research year the situation will be very different, with and development incentives will be more com- possibly a significant increase in the moneys plex. This was also a time to examine risk invest- going to the Revenue Commissioners from the ments in IT areas. I am concerned there is no housing sector, as often happens. investment for new generation networks for The Government has increased spending on broadband. Tourism did not receive any mention. public services by \8.6 million to \62 million There is no package for the mid-west despite the which is entirely appropriate at a time of uncer- \ Government’s representative claiming 55 mil- tainty. While the market has slowed down in this lion will be earmarked for the region. Whether it country, the infrastructure is being rolled out with is open skies or the Aer Lingus pull-out, there expenditure in many areas, including transport, has been no movement on Shannon Airport. education and health. We were in the unique There was no exemption from VAT charges for situation that certain areas needed extra funding schools and hospitals when purchasing certain quite quickly as the population grew. Uniquely in goods such as computers. Europe, by the time a new school had been built This budget has been framed as a green budget in the western and northern suburbs of Dublin, with \15 million going on environmental another was needed. It is difficult for anyone to measures. With the Green Party in Government, anticipate growth of that level. None of our Euro- that is an hilarious figure. pean neighbours had but we are meeting that challenge directly. Senator John Hanafin: The budget was a ques- tion of priorities and it matches our expectations. Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: That would not We wanted the Minister for Finance to look after be so if tracking were in place. the less well-off. It is a time of economic change in the world in which we have little say. It is a Senator John Hanafin: I am pleased with the time of uncertainties in the finance and equity increase in the social welfare payments. Depend- markets. The Minister for Finance took the right ants, who were in an anomalous situation, have course. It was a prudent budget but one which received a significant and welcome increase of looked after the most vulnerable. \27 which, when combined with the increase of 2025 Budget Statement 2008: 5 December 2007. Statements (Resumed) 2026

\14 in the contributory pension, makes an There should not be so many consultants, com- increase of \41 a week or more than \2,000 a mittees or the burgeoning industry around year. Respite grants have increased. Supporting Government of advisers working in parallel to the older people is one hallmark of the Government Civil Service. It is bizarre to have parallel of which I am particularly proud. systems. When Members were at school, the In respect of family support, there is an cream of the country entered the Civil Service increase of \6 each for the first and second chil- and went on to be junior executive officers, dren per month and an increase of \8 for the administrative officers and first secretaries. Why third child, making \20 for a family of three. must a plethora of outside consultants sideline There is an additional \2 million in funding for them? Not doing so would save a significant sum school meals, representing another significant of money. increase for those in disadvantaged areas. I like It is a crime that the Government has increased to see this because looking after those who are the number of its external agencies to 630. This less well off is the sign of a good budget. is a bizarre, Byzantine and monstrous bureauc- Taxation has decreased significantly through racy that needs dismantling. More reprehensible the years. This is a vast improvement by any yard- is the fact that the Government created the stick and using any inflationary figure. It is a great illusion of a boom for the general election. Now credit to all budgets heretofore. A married per- we are in deficit. The illusion was kept alive until son with two children on the full rate of PRSI and the general election was over. We are now bor- \ earning 15,000 paid 11% of that in income in tax rowing for current expenditure which is what we in 1997 but he or she pays nothing now. A person did in the bad old days. earning \25,000 in 1997 paid 20% and pays \ nothing now. A person on 120,000 paid 43% and Senators: For capital expenditure. still pays 27%, a significant amount, as it should be. It is, however, attractive for people to come Senator Joe O’Reilly: For capital expenditure to this country. Foreign direct investors look not too. The budget is not progressive. In the year only at the economic climate and taxation — we 2000 the Government published a climate change welcome the retention of the allowances for the strategy that proposed a carbon tax by 2002, more business expansion scheme and film investment investment in buses, the cessation of coal use at — but also at the provision for education and Moneypoint power station by 2008, rebalancing health services. We have a high standard of both and I was delighted to see a significant sum, in vehicle registration tax and integrated traffic addition to ordinary resources, being expended management. None of this happened and conse- on cancer care because this is present in all our quently we are over our emissions limit. Since the minds. This is a commendable budget because publication of the report 500,000 houses have within its constraints it concentrated on the less been built and 600,000 cars put on the road which well-off. blithely ignores the need for sustainable patterns of energy use. Over these years the movement of Debate adjourned. drivers to cars with larger engines wiped out the improvement in emissions performance achieved Visit of Former Member. by car manufacturers and the average emissions per car increased by 11%. An Leas-Chathaoirleach: I welcome Mr. Tom The only provision in the national development Hussey to the Visitors Gallery. Mr. Hussey is a plan on climate change is to pay \270 million in former Member of the House and a former Mini- penalties for the failure of the Government ster of State. strategy set out in 2000. The Green Party deserves some credit for dragging Fianna Fa´il to Budget Statement 2008: Statements (Resumed). face this important global challenge but it must Senator Joe O’Reilly: I welcome the Minister also realise that enough is not being done. of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Today’s balancing of VRT is welcome but it is a Noel Ahern, to the House. The tragic backdrop belated move that may not be enough. I also wel- to today’s budget is the waste of the boom years. come the pilot programme on home insulation There is no improvement in services, traffic is in and believe it should be grant aided nationally gridlock, class sizes are enormous in suburban because it will yield results. schools and the health service is paralysed. We There should have been a provision in today’s have created neither a fair society with the money budget to grant aid domestic turbines. earned in the boom nor a monetary war chest. We have failed in accountancy and social justice Senator Paddy Burke: Hear, hear. terms. The Government has not achieved value for Senator Joe O’Reilly: There should also have money. The budget failed to put in place a system been a provision to grant aid the marshalling of to audit the delivery of services, monitor expendi- water from old corn and flax mills to provide ture and evaluate results. There is still an oppor- power to alternators to create electricity locally. tunity to do this. I should acknowledge that my colleague, Senator 2027 Budget Statement 2008: 5 December 2007. Statements (Resumed) 2028

[Senator Joe O’Reilly.] country through investment; for example, we Burke, has raised the question of domestic wind should not have the same type of roads now as turbines on a number of occasions in this House. 15 or 20 years ago. The increases in social welfare are just about adequate but do not take enough account of the Senator Joe O’Reilly: On a point of infor- fact that one in five old age pensioners lives in mation, would it be in order to ask—— poverty. In recent times the prices of essential foodstuffs such as bread, milk, butter, eggs and so Senator Fiona O’Malley: My time is limited on have increased by 15% and in this context the and I will not give way. The hallmark of this increases in social welfare are paltry. It is a hor- budget is that it is fair and nobody in the country rendous shame that the living alone allowance will lose out as a result of it, which is quite an was not increased today because there are achievement in more constrained economic cir- obvious extra costs facing those in this area. cumstances than recent years. It is easy to be gen- I have always argued in every chamber avail- erous when money is widely available but it is able to me, including local radio, that we should harder to make choices when money is limited remove the means test for the carer’s allowance and that is why this year’s budget is so commend- and Senator Wilson will corroborate this. The able. It is difficult to find a group that will not carer’s allowance is the most effective way of benefit from this budget and none of the non- keeping people at home, where they are happiest, governmental organisations responding to it and more should be done regarding investment seemed to seriously criticise it. in home care assistance. This is all missing from People have said it is a pity certain areas did today’s budget, which is strong on platitudes but not receive more but, as the Minister for Defence, low on detail. Deputy Willie O’Dea, said, we would all like to The budget has failed to deliver on the election give everyone more but that is not the way of the promise on the top rate of tax, which is 41%, and world and that is not the purpose of a budget. it is worth noting that since 2002 the burden of \ There was a limited amount of money available taxation per person has increased by 9,500. The in the budget, choices had to be made and the move on stamp duty is probably too little, too late Minister has made his choices wisely. to cope with the slump in housing prices and rep- Before Senator O’Reilly departs I want to raise resents the Government’s acceptance of an ident- the issue of the top rate of income tax. ical proposal made by Fine Gael during the elec- tion campaign. The budget provides no relief for those who decide to take a year or two of leave Acting Chairman (Senator Dan Boyle): The from their jobs to look after a child at home but Senator may make her remarks through the such an initiative needs support. Chair. This budget should have seen the Government reducing wasteful expenditure, eliminating the Senator Fiona O’Malley: This is the first budget notion of big government and reducing the use of of a five year programme and if everything was the traditional Civil Service. The budget should delivered in the first budget there would be little also have taken a more realistic approach to to do in the following years. environmental issues and made more provision for social welfare. More could have been Senator Joe O’Toole: The Senator should see achieved in this budget, which represents the if the Government is still sitting in five years. Government’s poor attempt to back track on its election promises. Senator Fiona O’Malley: It is madness to think that everything could be delivered today because Senator Fiona O’Malley: I suggest that Senator this process is more a marathon than a sprint. We O’Reilly read the budget because there is no plan should take the time to recognise that a prog- to borrow for current expenditure. ramme for Government is to be delivered over five years and items in the programme will be Senator Joe O’Reilly: More than \1.5 billion is delivered in that timeframe. This Government to be borrowed and there is no statement that we and the previous Administration has form and will arrive at current expenditure. has delivered on previous commitments, which is one of the reasons I am pleased to see an increase Senator Fiona O’Malley: The Senator has in old age pensions today. We are well on the way made an error and it is important that we do not to reaching the figure of \300 that is indicated in scaremonger people into thinking we are the programme for Government and this is to be returning to the days when we borrowed heavily welcomed. One might have expected the first for current expenditure. Any borrowing planned budget of a new administration to be parsimoni- in this budget is wise, prudent and for capital ous with contributions to social welfare because expenditure. If one bought a computer the day it it will be some time before it faces the electorate came on the market and did not buy a new one again but the Minister has honoured commit- as technology advanced one would be left behind. ments in the programme for Government. He is We must update all kinds of infrastructure in the furnishing the appropriate increases to arrive at 2029 Budget Statement 2008: 5 December 2007. Statements (Resumed) 2030 the levels sought by the time the administration these objectives has been achieved and their ends. implementation will not be possible given the I am particularly pleased with the Minister’s resources allocated. comments on research and development, I listened to the enthusiasm of the speakers on especially in the energy field. I have always con- the Government side. The energised contribution tended that there are major opportunities for the of Senator MacSharry certainly made an impact. State in terms of advancing our knowledge econ- Senator O’Malley, meanwhile, put forward the omy. The Minister has given a commitment that point of view of the Progressive Democrats Party. where investments show scope to go further, he Some of the provisions in the budget are is willing to assist them in doing so. I applaud him undoubtedly welcome. I always point out the for this tremendous initiative. This is the correct positives as well as the negatives in any Govern- way to approach the challenge posed by climate ment initiative. For example, I support the change and the energy supply crisis. I am pleased exclusion of those on the minimum wage from to see the Minister investing heavily and appro- the tax net. I welcome that some movement has priately at this level. been made in the area of housing, although I The Minister is wise to reform the stamp duty wonder whether the motivation for this was to system so fundamentally. The attractiveness of satisfy builders and developers rather than buy- his initiative in this area is its simplicity. The Pro- ers. I will let that rest for now. gressive Democrats Party has indicated its prefer- In education provision, however, one does the ence for streamlining the bands to make fairer sums and discovers there is an overall increase what has been an extremely unfair tax. The Mini- of less than 2%. This is an appalling increase. I ster wisely kept close counsel about this. Having emphasise to Senator MacSharry in particular observed what happened in the housing market that all the available funding will be used to build in the past year, his response is appropriate. It is schools in the Pale. not a minute response but a fundamental reform of the system. Stamp duty was the most unfair of Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: Hear, hear. taxes; in no other area of taxation did one pay tax at the higher rate on the full amount once one Senator Joe O’Toole: It will not be used to exceeded the defined thresholds. provide funding for the school I visited in Sligo The Minister deserves to be commended on his last week. It will not address the difficulties initiatives in many other areas, including motor experienced by the school in Ballina that I taxation. One of the fundamental features of this brought to the Minister’s attention last week. The budget is that it upholds the principle that those money is simply not there. I am not saying this is earning the minimum wage should remain out of a poor budget. My point is that many issues have the taxation system. This is important in terms of not been addressed. For instance, schools will encouraging people on modest wages to continue continue to have to raise funds. This is working. Ensuring that four out of five taxpayers unacceptable given that the people involved in pay tax at the standard rate is a good principle to these schools were allowed by the Government maintain. Economic stability is prudently safe- to entertain certain expectations. Perhaps the way guarded in the budget. I commend the Minister to deal with this is to admit that it cannot be done greatly on his achievement. now but will be done next month or next year, but I have not heard that either. Senator Joe O’Toole: I propose to share time The commitments given have not been deliv- with Senator Doherty. ered upon. The commitment to reduce class sizes cannot be fulfilled because adequate provision Acting Chairman: Is that agreed? Agreed. has not been made for the increased population of school-going children. Neither can the increase Senator Joe O’Toole: This budget is about in the capitation grant be made. Thus, there will broken promises. I do not have time to go into no significant improvement in primary education. detail but I will focus on education, an issue in This reality puts some perspective on the wel- which I am closely involved. Reference was made come initiatives in the budget. on the Order of Business to the Estimate for edu- cation. The increase in the allocation for the Senator Pearse Doherty: This the 11th budget Department of Education and Science is appal- presided over by Fianna Fa´il in government. Dur- lingly small. ing that time, we have had unprecedented econ- omic growth. Now, however, the Government is Senator Pearse Doherty: Hear, hear. warning us to tighten our belts. Fianna Fail’s pre- election promises were an illusion but also a mas- Senator Joe O’Toole: The reality is one of terstroke in terms of electoral strategy. It prom- broken promises. At the Fianna Fa´il Ard-Fheis, ised the earth, moon and stars but as soon as the we were promised that the Government would votes were cast, it embarked upon a campaign to double the capitation grant for primary schools. dampen down expectations by telling voters that We were assured on numerous occasions that the many of its promises were no longer realisable. pupil-teacher ratio would be reduced. Neither of The commitments made by Fianna Fa´il in its 2031 Budget Statement 2008: 5 December 2007. Statements (Resumed) 2032

[Senator Pearse Doherty.] Ministers is equal to the same increase we gave manifesto included the provision of 2,000 to 120 pensioners. That demonstrates where the additional gardaı´, 4,000 extra teachers, 1,500 new Government’s commitment is in this budget. It hospital beds and 2,000 additional health consult- was not for the most vulnerable or the weakest in ants, as well as tax cuts, PRSI cuts, affordable society. We could have done much more and it is housing and so on. It was clear that all of these a missed opportunity. could not be delivered on if the Government was not willing to address new areas of revenue and Acting Chairman: I call Senator de Bu´ rca and reconsider those commitments, including tax cuts, remind her there are five minutes left in the that would reduce revenue intake. debate before the Minister of State makes his This budget represents a missed opportunity. It concluding remarks. was a more difficult budget to deliver given the economic circumstances that pertain, but it Senator De´irdre de Bu´ rca: I was going to sug- offered an opportunity to increase the net tax gest I share my time with Senator Healy Eames. take. One way to do this was to harness the natural resources off our coasts that we have been Acting Chairman: Is it agreed to share time, \ handing over to multinationals. The 51 billion in with Senator de Bu´ rca having three minutes and gas that is expected to be discovered off the west Senator Healy Eames having two? Agreed. coast could have funded this budget. European states such as Norway and other countries Senator De´irdre de Bu´ rca: There is no such throughout the world use their natural resources thing as a perfect budget but I suggest the budget to generate wealth that is invested in education, announced by the Minister for Finance today was health and social infrastructure for the benefit of well balanced in the context of the straightened the people. It is a shame the Government did not financial circumstances in which the country finds replicate this stance. itself. The Minister’s actions, in co-operation with The Government also failed to deal with the the parties in Government, have meant the cir- tax loopholes that allow individuals to write off cumstances in which we find ourselves were tax under various schemes. These reliefs are turned into economic opportunities, particularly being exploited by some wealthy individuals who where the environment and sustainable develop- reduce their tax bills to such an extent that they ment is concerned. end up paying less than ordinary workers. The I emphasise the green imprint on the budget, Minister has again missed an opportunity to deal which other Senators have mentioned. There are with this. very positive initiatives which will allow, for This budget must be judged on facts rather example, companies to write off 100% of their than Government spin. The criterion for expenditure on energy efficiency initiatives. judgment is whether it will lift people out of pov- erty, ensure an equal distribution of wealth and There is also much greater access to the business deliver improvements in public services. It will expansion scheme for companies involved in achieve none of these. There are positive initiat- recycling. ives in the budget but no major increases in This, in a way, is the Government demonstrat- resource allocations. An increased allocation of ing that it is possible to turn a scenario where \95 million for education will provide only for the economic and environmental sustainability are an extra 13,000 pupils who have come to this country imperative into economic opportunity. Jobs will and require a school place next year. We will not be created and very positive economic oppor- be able to provide for schools in bands one, two tunities can be realised through the budget. and three, which are operating out of dilapidated I commend the budget because of the emphasis buildings throughout the State. No progress has on sustainable development. As the Green Party been made on medical cards and child care. I has repeatedly indicated, sustainable develop- spoke to a low-income worker yesterday, the sole ment is about finding balance between economic earner in a family of five children who are cared growth, social justice and environmental protec- for either in cre`ches or in after-school projects. tion. The budget goes a good way towards achiev- This Government’s position on child care means ing that kind of balance. he will pay more than \500 per week. There is a strong emphasis on social justice The Government has spoken about the \12 within the budget, even within the compromised increase for pensioners and those on social wel- economic conditions we find ourselves. Those fare and indicated this is a caring budget. I would who have least in society have been the focus of compare this with what happened to three Mini- the social welfare and taxation proposals framed sters and their proposed wage increases. within the budget. Health care is an issue of sig- nificant concern which has been the subject of Acting Chairman: Will the Senator do so in less many debates in the Seanad. The increase in the than one minute? health budget is less than previous years but it has been targeted at areas where there is part- Senator Pearse Doherty: I will do it in one sen- icular public concern. I specifically mention tence. The increase that has been given to three cancer care services, as the \29 million put aside 2033 Budget Statement 2008: 5 December 2007. Statements (Resumed) 2034 towards screening and remediation is very Acting Chairman: The Senator must conclude welcome. as she is encroaching on the time set aside for the Minister of State. Acting Chairman: The Senator has exceeded her time. Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: I do not see a commitment per county. There are new areas in Senator De´irdre de Bu´ rca: I welcome the \12.5 Galway, such as Doughiska with 8,000 people and million being given to fund the implementation no school. When I see these nitty-gritty details, I of the recommendations of the national drugs will say it is a good budget. strategy rehabilitation board. This will allow for I have a number of other points which I know I the development and strengthening of the local cannot air. Is the extra funding for cancer services drugs task forces and roll services out to the new being committed to cancer care centres? Has a commuter belt towns. We can see cases in the costing per centre been achieved yet? I am not media where many young people are facing sure it is a good budget for families. extremely adverse health conditions because of dabbling in recreational drugs, so the role of our Acting Chairman: I ask the Senator to con- drugs task forces is increasingly important. I am clude. Her concluding question has taken her to pleased to see this prioritised in today’s budget. a further point.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: I thank the Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: I welcome the Senator for sharing her time. I would like to be attempt to address mortgage relief but it was all fair but at best this is a maintenance budget. It is taken back by the harsh increases in car tax. The too little, too late because our great wealth has Government gave on one hand and took with been squandered. The budget is lacking in vision the other. and strategies, bearing in mind the needs of the This is at best a maintenance budget desper- knowledge economy which we must seriously ately lacking in imagination when the Govern- address to sustain economic growth at a very ment could have grasped the opportunity before uncertain time. it. Although we are facing tougher economic With regard to education, the quality of learn- times, this does not mean the budget can be ing in the classroom depends on the quality of totally lacking in imagination. teaching. There has been no mention of targeted reductions in class size. In 2002 we heard there Minister of State at the Department of Finance would be 20 pupils to one teacher in classes of (Deputy Noel Ahern): I thank Members for their under-nines. That promise was not kept. There is comments. To be fair the Minister for Finance no commitment to preschool education and no and Ta´naiste speaks for 45 minutes or so and thought has been given to universal preschool does not cover every aspect of every cent spent. education, even if it was only in disadvantaged The Ministers will tomorrow make statements areas. There would be payback on such initiative about the nitty gritty and much has already been in building hope and fighting crime by bringing discussed. At the various Estimates meetings, people into the culture of education at an early Ministers must outline what they will achieve for age. the year and they will be answerable at the end I spoke in the House on lifelong learning a of the year for this. number of weeks ago and indicated to the Mini- Things have changed and everything is not ster the importance of making a commitment to covered in the Budget Statement. We should put ESOL, or English for speakers of other what is said in the Budget Statement with the var- languages. ious Estimates meetings to see what has happened. Acting Chairman: The Senator has 30 seconds. To be fair, the general comment over the past few weeks have described the problems the Mini- Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: Some 250,000 ster for Finance was facing and how he could deal people have no English in this country and they with various issues. In the media there was a are a significant drain on public services, such as reasonable understanding of the challenges ahead health and education. We needed \10 million in of us this year. Some of the speakers, particularly that area but I see only a commitment of \3 mil- from the Fine Gael side, do not seem to under- lion for adult literacy, which may have an ESOL stand this and prefer to state that it is all down to component. That is very disappointing. The Government waste and other nonsense. They do advice to separate literacy from English for not appear to have ever heard of financial turbu- speakers of other languages was not heeded. lence in the markets, the sub-prime crisis, the I have no idea how much an increase in capit- rising price of oil and problems in the US and UK ation has been given to primary and secondary economies and the dollar. schools. We know how many of our schools must The budget must take account of local issues. fundraise to meet heat, lighting and insurance bills. It is impossible for me to comment on the Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: The Minister of capital programme because I do not see—— State should stick to our own revenues. 2035 Care of the 5 December 2007. Elderly 2036

Deputy Noel Ahern: We are a small country An Cathaoirleach: Allow the Minister of State and unfortunately we are not in a position to dic- to complete his contribution. tate to the world yet. I will deal with a few of the issues mentioned Deputy Noel Ahern: That is how they have by a number of people. Senator Kelly stated the been designated for years. stamp duty provision would benefit people buy- ing expensive houses. If a tax is changed, whether Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: However, we it is income tax or stamp duty, those who pay should change the language. more benefit to a slightly greater extent. I was a Deputy Noel Ahern: When the three-year Minister of State with responsibility for housing programme has concluded they no longer will be for five years and I take the view that the general because they will be at the same level as the non- attitude that the measure has come too late is contributory pensioner. nonsense. We had to wait until house prices There was a lot of good today. It was an appro- stabilised before anything significant could be priate budget, relevant to the challenges facing us done on the stamp duty issue. for the year ahead. There is no point in one batch If we tried to implement the measure a year of Senators speaking of all the extra things on ago, people in the market would not have noticed which the money should be spent and another any difference. Any saving would have been batch speaking of cutbacks, cutting the public added to the price and people would service, value for money etc. It is very difficult to 8 o’clock carry on as if there was no difference. see a consistent view. The one person who must We had to watch and wait for an try to match the different challenges and opportunity to deal with the matter. Fine Gael demands together is the Ta´naiste and Minister for may argue that the measure is the same as what Finance and he has done a damn good job. it proposed but it is not. The Fine Gael proposal was to change the stamp duty regime over a An Cathaoirleach: When is it proposed to sit three-year period, reducing it by degrees by 2010. again? This would have resulted in the market stagnating because people would not want to buy in the Senator Marc MacSharry: Tomorrow morning knowledge that stamp duty would be lower the at 10.30. following year. The change to stamp duty is pru- dent as are so many other items in the budget. It Adjournment Matters. is necessary to take account of the context. Gross domestic product is expected to grow by 3%, ———— which is less than in other years and we need to take note of that. Care of the Elderly. A number of people spoke about the lack of An Cathaoirleach: I welcome the Minister of atmosphere in the Chamber and that people were State, Deputy Hoctor, to the House. It may well not jumping up and down. Some elements of the be her first time here on the Adjournment of the media try to pretend it is about the performance. House. I wish her well in the future as a Minister If people want a performance they should go to of State. the Abbey or somewhere like that. The budget is a statement taking prudent action on the running Senator Cecilia Keaveney: I thank you, a of the economy for the next year. The Minister Chathaoirligh, for allowing me to raise this needs to take account of the current situation and important issue not just for the elderly people of not necessarily put on a show. Inishowen but also for the many other elderly I believe there is considerable good in the people and their families. The elderly were once budget. The extra social welfare funding for the young. They worked and produced families and at the end of their lives, they deserve comfort and needy includes a \14 per week increase for pen- security in their health and physical circum- sioners and a \27 one for those on the qualified stances. I welcome that the budget increased the adult allowance, which is part of a three-year State pensions by \12 and \14 a week and gave programme. Older people, usually women over an extra week’s fuel allowance. 65 who are qualified adults on their husband’s Some years ago medical cards were introduced pensions, were very pleased last year and will be for all people over 70 and there are ongoing vol- very pleased this year that their many years of untary and community grants for safety in houses, working in the home is being recognised. They insulation etc. Considerable investment has been are quickly catching up with the non-contributory made in voluntary housing to allow elderly rate. Even up to last year I believe the rate for people to avail of secure and often sheltered qualified adults was \149. In two years it has accommodation that affords them their own inde- increased by \50. pendence while also having the feeling of com- munity. The home care packages developed over Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: They certainly recent budgets are very important also because do not like being called qualified adults. pensioners want to be at home. 2037 Care of the 5 December 2007. Elderly 2038

I may be selfish in raising this matter because I am not one to commend any old initiative or I aspire to be one of the elderly in the future and pilot project. This one is in my area, I know it there are a number of us around. As the Minister very well and I know the value it is to the com- of State knows, many elderly people are lonely munity. I know also the Minister of State met a and some can feel very isolated. While they might group from the organisation when she recently live in a town, they may not have people visiting. visited Donegal. The people she met at the con- Life has changed and people seem to have more ference there spoke very highly of her. The cares difficult lives and to live them at a faster pace. and needs of the elderly are in a safe pair of The concept of the family may not be as cohesive hands. I hope the Minister of State will work with with people no longer living on top of each other her colleagues in other Departments to ensure as much as they did in former days. these good projects can be rolled out and that There is an initiative in Inishowen, which when we need these facilities in a few years’ time, began in Buncrana, called “Good Morning they will be in place for us. Inishowen”. Volunteers offer their time to call a number of people who have agreed to the phone Minister of State at the Department of Social call. They receive it at a certain time on a certain and Family Affairs (Deputy Ma´ire Hoctor): I day so they expect it. If they do not feel well they thank Senator Keaveney for raising this matter can inform the person at the other end of the which I know is very dear to her heart. On my phone. While he or she may not be a medical per- recent visit to County Donegal I became son, it allows the elderly person to relieve his or acquainted with the successful telephone service her mind of how good or bad the day was with project, “Good Morning Inishowen”. I met someone at the other end of the phone to listen Deputy Blaney that day and both the Minister of to their woes or concerns or even just to have a State, Deputy Pat the Cope Gallagher, and the bit of fun, which I discovered is as much part of Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, the job as anything else. Having spoken to recipi- Deputy Coughlan, have also contacted me on ents of calls and to volunteers, both have gained this matter. form the initiative. Many people are lonely I reaffirm the Government’s commitment to despite the many packages allowing them to stay services for older people. The development of in their homes. If they are lonely in their houses services for older people is a high priority. This is it is a considerable drawback which may push reflected in the funding committed to services for them over the edge and force them to enter a older people in the budgets for 2006 and 2007. nursing home. If they do not, they may remain In 2006 the Government funded the largest ever isolated, lonely and fearful. expansion in services for older people with a full The Minister of State has a great opportunity year cost of \150 million. In the 2007 budget, a to bring together many aspects. While I have full year package of \255 million was allocated spoken about the loneliness aspect, the safety for services for older people. In the budget today aspect is also an important part of the difficulties for 2008, the Minister for Finance announced experienced by elderly people. There has been details of further funding allocated to the health investment in panic bells, spy holes, special doors services which includes even more investment in and lights that come on automatically. In the con- services for older people. The budget provides an text of the safety aspect the Minister of State additional \396 million for the health Vote group should work with the Garda, which I am sure she which includes \135 million for older people. A is doing. If the feeling of insecurity among elderly total of \25 million of this is targeted at com- people arises as a result of youths going slightly munity supports. In total, over the past three astray, the Garda should consider using the Chil- budgets, \535 million has been added to services dren Act to deal with it. If it arises as a result of for older people. criminal acts they need to be addressed promptly. Government policy relating to older people is If elderly people are being attacked it should be to support people to live in dignity and indepen- a priority for the Garda to respond properly. dence in their homes and communities for as long I would like to see development of rural trans- as possible and, where this is not possible, to sup- port to allow these people to continue to go to port access to quality long-term residential care. church, hospital, shops etc. The “Good Morning This policy approach is renewed and developed in Inishowen” service has been operational on a the latest partnership agreement, Towards 2016. pilot basis and I commend those involved. It has “Good Morning Inishowen” is a telephone link been supported by the Health Service Executive line service for older people which has been oper- and I believe John Hayes has been central in this ational in Inishowen since August 2006. The regard. The project needs to be put on a statutory service is due to commence in the Cloghaneely basis so that those involved do not wonder from area on 10 December 2007 and in the south year to year or month to month whether they will Donegal area in early 2008. The service is fully have the funding to enable them to continue. I staffed by volunteer telephone operators who would like to think it is a model that could be commit to approximately three hours each week. expanded countrywide. Any initiative that Approximately 120 older people are in receipt of improves the quality of life for elderly people is a call approximately three days each week, but important. this will increase to five days early next year. Vol- 2039 Job 5 December 2007. Creation 2040

[Deputy Ma´ire Hoctor.] and Erin Foods, and nearby localities have also unteers check that the older person is safe and suffered job losses. I refer to those in Proctor and well and also update them on any other services Gamble in Nenagh. This is becoming a significant they might avail of in the area. They also assist issue in the area and it is very demoralising for with any queries. This service complements the the people of Thurles in particular. work of the public health nurses and home sup- The people of the town are disheartened. They port workers in helping older people who choose cannot commute to work because the town is not to stay in their own home. in a commuter zone, unlike other towns in the The present situation in Donegal is as follows. area. Thurles needs jobs that are based in the The two-year INTERREG III A funding ceased town or centred on the locality, but such jobs are on 30 November 2007, the Health Service Execu- on the decline. All the major industries have left tive has agreed to pay the co-ordinator’s salary and the replacement jobs which followed the clos- for the period from December 2007 to December ure of the sugar factory are gone. Erin Foods was 2008, CAWT has sourced \15,000 which will sus- the last employer to leave. tain the service until 31 March 2008, the service I have met the Erin Foods workers, many of requires \108,000 to operate for one year in whom worked for the company for decades. I am Inishowen, Cloghaneely and south Donegal, and thinking of John O’Halloran, Josie O’Driscoll the management committee is looking at all other and Martin Ryan. I have met their representa- funding options, including corporate and com- tives as well. I have deep sympathy for their munity agencies in the three service areas. plight and the situation in which they find As the Senator is aware, the Health Act 2004 themselves. provided the Health Service Executive with It must be acknowledged that part of the responsibility for the management and delivery of reason for their situation is an interpretation health and personal social services. As a corpor- taken by the Competition Authority about the ate body the provision of these services, including lines and brands being produced. This interpreta- the delivery of services by agreement with volun- tion was viewed by many as draconian. The man- tary and community organisations, is a matter for agement, on the basis of this interpretation, the HSE. Funding for health services has been decided to close the main lines produced by the provided as part of the HSE’s overall Vote for factory and the factory was closed ultimately. health and personal social services in 2007. The I have also met the chamber of commerce rep- allocation of resources into 2008 is a matter for resentatives. They said that despite the booming the HSE in accordance with the overall priorities economy, Thurles has been losing jobs over the for particular services as set out in its service plan past ten years. It is of concern that the chamber for the coming year. of commerce does not see an end to this trend. It I undertake to contact Mr. John Hayes, the notes a lack of investment in job creation and is local area health manager, to ensure the of the view that the incubation services on offer additional funding which will be approved by the to small and medium enterprise development Government later tonight will be channelled into have been unsuccessful. the north west area and specifically to the “Good As for the work of State agencies in the mid- Morning Inishowen” project. I will make a firm west, north Tipperary in particular, Shannon request for that funding in support of this excel- Development has done good work over many lent service. years. The role of the agency has changed, however, and we have been left in a vacuum Senator Cecilia Keaveney: I thank the Minister owing to the changeover to Enterprise Ireland. of State because she has answered the question I Shannon Development is now a tourism agency would have asked as a supplementary. and should be called Fa´ilte Ireland Shannon or Fa´ilte Ireland mid-west. This has created a vac- Job Creation. uum in the development of the mid-west, north Senator Alan Kelly: I had hoped the Minister Tipperary in particular. Thurles is at the edge of of State, Deputy Hoctor, would reply to this north Tipperary which is at the very edge of the matter as she is a fellow countywoman and con- mid-west region, with the result that Shannon stituency colleague of mine. This matter is as per- Development’s zone has been omitted. tinent to her as it is to me. None the less, I wel- Two types of people exist in Thurles. One is come the Minister of State, Deputy Michael the employees in the 40 to 50 years age bracket Ahern, to the House. who have lost jobs but do not have the infor- This matter refers to the continuing job losses mation and communications technology skills in the town of Thurles which effectively has required to take up other positions. Jobs must be become a blackspot in the middle of Ireland. delivered for these workers. The other group is What action will the Government and the State the younger people who have graduated from the agencies take to secure replacement jobs for the Tipperary Institute and other local colleges and town? Ever since the loss of the sugar factory in who are looking for jobs, especially in the tech- Thurles, it has been a case of repeated job losses. nology area. The Government has failed to Jobs were lost in Barlow, BSN Medical, GMX attract investment by the use of tax breaks for 2041 Job 5 December 2007. Creation 2042

ICT and technology companies and this is having this week. Perhaps they will be able to help the a detrimental impact on the area. Senator. Furthermore, the lack of investment in broad- band has had an impact because a number of Senator Alan Kelly: Only those two represen- small to medium sized enterprises have been tatives were present. Unfortunately the other unable or unwilling to locate in the town due to public representatives were not invited. the lack of broadband infrastructure throughout the region. Effectively, Thurles is now a black Deputy Michael Ahern: Perhaps Senator Kelly spot for job creation. This is accepted by most should have a chat with them to see how they got people, including my colleagues in other parties. on at that meeting. What will be done about this issue? What real Senator Alan Kelly: Is that appropriate? actions can take place? What are the real timel- ines and when will there be real jobs? I make this Deputy Michael Ahern: Yes, it is appropriate point with genuine sympathy for those who are to talk to them. affected. I do not wish to hear rhetoric and would rather hear a response on the record with which Senator Alan Kelly: No, is it appropriate that all could work together. I will publish the Mini- the other representatives were not invited? ster of State’s response and will bring it back to the workers in order that they can see what the An Cathaoirleach: The Minister of State, with- Government intends to do for them. out interruption.

Minister of State at the Department of Deputy Michael Ahern: The strategies and Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Deputy policies pursued by the development agencies, in Michael Ahern): I thank Senator Kelly for raising partnership with other key interests, are intended this matter on the Adjournment. I am highly to ensure new employment opportunities in aware of the situation in Thurles. The Senator Thurles and the surrounding area. The objective referred to the Irish Sugar Company and to Erin is to replace the companies that have closed with Foods. The constituency that I represent includes the companies of the future. There has been a Mallow, in which the Irish Sugar Company was significant churn in the economy, which has been located—— reflected in Thurles and the north Tipperary area. I am conscious of the need for the agencies to Senator Alan Kelly: I am aware of that. work together in tackling this situation. The IDA Ireland strategy for Thurles and Deputy Michael Ahern: ——and Midleton, north Tipperary involves developing the know- from which I come and in which Erin Foods was ledge economy by winning new foreign direct investment in innovation-driven, high-skills sec- located. I worked there myself for a couple of tors. The agency is also working with its existing summers and both factories also have closed. I company base to expand their presence in Ireland assure Senator Kelly that I understand and am by the addition of new functions of scale and by concerned about the consequences of job losses deepening their strategic functions. Another of and their effects on the workers concerned, their the agency’s strategies is to influence the pro- families and the community. The role of FA´ S, the vision of property solutions and the supporting State training agency, is particularly important in infrastructure to meet the requirements of the first instance by offering assistance to workers inward investors. who lose their jobs. The agency’s full range of The IDA recognises the need to achieve high services are available if the workers wish to avail value employment in north Tipperary and is com- of them. I assure those concerned that the State mitted to marketing the area as part of its development agencies are providing all possible national goal of achieving balanced regional assistance. The priority is to increase employment development. It has five supported companies in opportunities for Thurles and the surrounding north Tipperary, employing some 680 people, one area. of which, a pharmaceutical distributor, is located As recently as last month, my colleague, the in Thurles. In addition, investments by two com- Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, panies in Roscrea and Templemore will result in Deputy Michea´l Martin, gave an undertaking in significant additional employment for the entire the Da´il to develop a co-ordinated and cohesive area, including the surrounding towns. response to the current situation in Thurles. In The IDA also works closely with Shannon this regard, I understand that the Minister has Development in the development, promotion and already met the chief executives of the industrial marketing of tailored property solutions to poten- development agencies to discuss marketing, pro- tial investors throughout the mid-west, including motion, investment and job creation for Thurles the development of Tipperary Technology Park and the surrounding area. I understand the Mini- in Thurles. Shannon Development has completed ster also had a meeting on this issue with Senator the first stage development of Tipperary Tech- Kelly’s constituency colleagues, the Minister of nology Park, which includes 25,000 sq. ft. state- State, Deputy Hoctor, and Deputy Lowry earlier of-the-art accommodation, to facilitate the attrac- 2043 The 5 December 2007. Adjournment 2044

[Deputy Michael Ahern.] in grant assistance to 18 projects, which resulted tion and development of knowledge-based in the creation of 21 net jobs in county enterprise enterprises. The park is a component of IDA board-assisted companies throughout north Ireland’s international marketing programme. Tipperary. The North Tipperary County Enterprise Board also organised 56 different Enterprise Ireland activity in Thurles and north types of training interventions during 2006, based Tipperary is focused on the creation of new jobs on meeting the wide and varied needs of the through supporting entrepreneurs setting up new small business owners and managers of north high potential start-up companies and the reten- Tipperary. Furthermore, 629 participants tion and creation of jobs in existing companies. attended training programmes run by the North Enterprise Ireland also works with its clients to Tipperary County Enterprise Board during 2006. enhance the innovation capability of Irish com- In October 2006, there were 934 people on the panies at both national and regional levels. A sig- live register in Thurles and the most recent data nificant number of Enterprise Ireland client com- available, which is for October 2007, show that panies in the county are actively developing their the figure has risen by 29 to 963. However, this businesses. A number of enterprise start prog- figure has decreased by 37 from the September rammes have been completed in recent years in 2007 figure of 1,000 people. conjunction with the Tipperary North County I believe that the strategies and policies that Enterprise Board and the Tipperary Institute, are being pursued by the State development based in Thurles. There are further plans to run agencies in partnership with other key players to a number of enterprise start programmes of short drive their marketing and promotion efforts, duration in 2008 in Thurles and Nenagh to drive together with the Government’s ongoing commit- the potential of developing new businesses in the ment to regional development, will bear fruit in area. In 2006, the agency supported the North terms of investment opportunities and job Tipperary Food Enterprise Centre in Rearcross, creation for both Thurles and the north Tipperary near Thurles, under the community enterprise area generally. Furthermore, I am confident that centre scheme. This premises is currently under the co-ordinated and cohesive response to which construction. I referred earlier will bring additional industrial activity to the region. During 2006, the North Tipperary County Enterprise Board approved in excess of \295,000 The Seanad adjourned at 8.25 p.m. until to 16 projects and paid out more than \238,000 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 6 December 2007.