Focus Group 7/26/10 FOCUS GROUP FOR THE CITY OF NEW BERLIN CITY CENTER JULY 26, 2010

Ted Wysocki, Alderman District 2 welcomed everyone to the Focus Group gathering. Carolyn Esswein and Mark Smith, GRAEF gave a power point presentation which can be found on the City’s website www.newberlin.org .

Ms. Esswein asked for questions or comments:

Ms. Esswein - How many use the library once a month? A show of hands indicated a few people did.

Ms. Esswein - Do you use any of the other businesses in the area? A show of hands indicated a few people did.

Ms. Esswein - Are you using services located throughout the entire City Center like where the new Sendik’s is going in, where the Walmart is?

Focus Group Comment - Pick ‘n Save, Super Cuts, Subway, Dry Cleaner, Chinese Restaurant, Chumley’s Pub, Print Shop, Bank, Walmart, Hirschloffs, Great Wraps, Vision Cener, Dentist were places mentioned as places or services used in City Center.

Sit down, white tablecloth restaurants where someone could entertain a client was indicated as something desired in City Center.

Parking and Traffic Ms. Esswein - What is it you like about the area around the library? Is it easy to park when you go to Walmart or Pick ‘n Save?

Focus Group Comment – Yes, it is very easy to park.

Ms. Esswein – Is it easy to park in the area by Sendik’s?

Focus Group Comment – Yes, it is easy to park.

Ms. Esswein – Is it easy to park in the area by Great Wraps?

Focus Group Comment – No. The parking is tight. It is confusing how it wraps around. It seems small.

Ms. Esswein – Would you like the area by the car wash to be included in the PUD?

Focus Group Comment –Yes.

Ms. Esswein – How do you get to City Center?

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Focus Group Comment – Mostly drive or walk with your life in your hands. The walk signals are short and don’t help because of the green turn arrows.

Ms. Esswein – Do you feel there are sufficient paths or trails to get you there if you wanted to walk or bike? If not, where do you feel we should explore other connections?

Focus Group Comment – No. A crossing by culvers at Acredale Road is needed.

Ms. Esswein – Is there generally enough access to all parts of this project? Would it be easier with more cuts? What do you think about Howard Ave. and Coffee Road connecting?

Focus Group Comment – I think that would enhance going to the post office and also getting over to Moorland Road and going south towards I-43 especially from Glen Park Subdivision.

Ms. Esswein – Can you explain why you would not support that connection?

Focus Group Comment – I have heard before that the developers are comparing us to Brookfield and the traffic flows on Bluemound Road . Hopefully that little connection would not lead to that. It would be a nice cut-through but I think it would drastically change things for the people that live behind the post office and in Glen Park Subdivision since it would become even more of a cut-through. Also, it will be more difficult to turn left out of Pick ‘n Save.

Ms. Esswein – It is coming down to cost as well. Right now it is developer driven so that road is not going to happen unless a developer comes in. If the survey comes out, there might be a question if you would be willing to pay tax dollars for the road to be extended? Would you be willing to pay tax dollars to buy more land to preserve the land as open space?

Focus Group Comment – Would connecting that street bring in new cars or would it just reroute existing cars? I think it would end up to be more of a cut-through.

Ms. Esswein – It could be a cut-through, but it comes down to how it is designed. It can be designed to make motorists drive slowly by sharper curves and stop signs.

Focus Group Comment – I think it is indicative of a much bigger problem all along National Avenue because it is horrible pulling in and out of the Walmart/Pick ‘n Save area. Wall Street is a mess because people don’t know how that intersection works. With the increase of traffic with Sendik’s going in now the whole situation is not good. There is a lot of traffic cutting through Walmart and Pick ‘n Save parking areas because it is so dangerous in the whole area.

Ms. Esswein – Where are people confused on Wall Street?

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Focus Group Comment – The confusion is coming up from Walmart, people don’t necessarily stop. When going into the bank, your blinker is on and people don’t stop at Walmart. If people are walking through there, it is very dangerous. The assumption is you are going to pull into Walmart. Anyone going left into City Center or the bank has to be careful because people coming out of Walmart come straight out. People don’t realize it is a road, they think it is Walmart’s driveway. If traffic is increased going down Wall Street, that problem will be even worse. I don’t think people should be able to make a left turn off of National Avenue into that area. On Bluemound Road you can only make left turns at certain spots.

I live in Regal Manors North and sometimes trying to get out and cross the lanes on National Avenue in front of Culvers is almost impossible. Sometimes you have to go the other way and then find a place to turn around and come back.

The key issue of getting businesses to be attracted to that area is National Avenue. The traffic pattern in that area is what you need to spend the time on. You have to get people willing to put their business there where they feel cars are going to stop, come in, and feel invited. Right now, that is a tough place to feel invited. When traffic is moving rapidly, drivers are paying attention to the traffic and not looking for what businesses are there. The traffic is moving too fast.

Open Space Ms. Esswein – It has been discussed that the square of open space in front of the library would be a good place for outside concerts or the farmer’s market. Is there interest in that or are you more interested in smaller open spaces where you can sit, have a sandwich, and read a book?

Focus Group Comment – I envision a town square or a plaza with a farmer’s market. In the winter there could be a small ice rink like Red Arrow Park in Milwaukee. Bayshore is doing things with artists and musicians in their town square. They have jazz trios at night, the big Christmas Tree in the winter, Halloween jack-o-lantern carving, they use their town square well.

Ms. Esswein – Some of the things you are suggesting are fairly easy, however some are very expensive like the ice rink. There is a balance between a big wish list and what is practical, but it is important to think about all activities.

Focus Group Comment – We have “Movies in the Park” at Malone Park. We could move it to City Center by the library. We could add some benches and landscaping.

Mr. Kessler – It is up to the Library Board as to what happens within the library green area. They have always been concerned about their parking expansion.

Focus Group Comment – I don’t think the area by the library green area is big enough to handle the farmer’s market.

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Ms. Esswein – Let’s consider another area on the site.

Focus Group Comment – What restrictions are there on the lands allocated for snakes?

Ms. Esswein – The area cannot be mowed along with other restrictions.

Alderman Wysocki – I understand that within the last couple months Butler Garter Snakes have been taken off the endangered species list, but I would like that to be checked into. Another thing I would like to add is that technically the City is a developer in City Center because of our library location. Further comments concerning the road extension, if you recall from the very beginning with the Master Plan, the developer was to put the road systems through. The city has never financed this kind of road system. We could assess the developments that go in there, but as with the Decade ownership, they said there is not enough there to justify the cost. If the Butler Garter Snake is no longer there, it opens up the land south of the library for an area that we could do a lot of what we talked about, and the smaller area could be for future parking if needed. I would also like to make it very clear that the multi-family zoning we talk about envisioned within the category was condo use. Within that condo use we had the Deer Creek approval which was the beginning of 108 units of condo. Let’s make if very clear that there was a beginning in the multi-family zoning of condo use.

Mr. Kessler – I will investigate the change in the status of the Butler Garter Snake habitat. To actually build that road, Alderman Wysocki is correct, development can only occur on the west side of the road. In order to build that road, current cost estimates are just under $2million dollars including side paths and storm water infrastructure associated with it. We would have to reapply for our DNR and Army Corp. of Eng. Permits and there would need to be some slight redesigns. The wetlands don’t go away.

Focus Group Comment – Is there any feasibility of extending Freemont Lane up to Wall Street behind the post office and Walmart?

Mr. Kessler – It would bypass more wetland and is a possibility, but the limiting factor that we are facing would be the deed restriction at the end of Wall Street and Library Lane.

Focus Group Comment – That would be really close to the Wimmer condos. It would be within feet of people’s condos.

Mr. Kessler – It was never envisioned to go through, hence the deed restriction.

Focus Group Comment –Extending that road would give nice traffic flow for getting in and out of Pick ‘n Save on the southwest side.

4 Focus Group 7/26/10 Ms. Esswein – Development would still be on only the east side. The other road extension, the development would only be on the west side. In terms of cost, I don’t know if it would be less or not without the wetland issue.

Mr. Kessler – In fairness to the process, we would need to evaluate that option.

Ms. Esswein – It was brought up at another meeting that people are looking for more pedestrian links. I am hearing support for that tonight as well.

Architecture and Theme Ms. Esswein – We have had questions about what happened to the theme. It wasn’t the intent of the theme to have everything look the same, there was more an intention of high quality materials, certain roof lines, windows, awnings, etc. What is your feeling on themes or how the buildings should look?

Focus Group Comment – I think the buildings should have an identity. What ever anchor is in there will be the identity of City Center. The identity of whatever large store or restaurant that goes in there will flow through the rest of City Center. Say you get an Outback Restaurant which is always too busy and you have to wait an hour for a seat. If you have a couple more restaurants in there, people will try those other ones even though they intended on going to Outback. If you give more options, people will try them.

You also have to consider where the people in the industrial park go and where they take their customers and clients.

I think there should be continuity among the buildings, especially the ones that are directly on National Avenue. I think it gives not only an upscale look, but it is inviting.

Has anyone seen where Mrs. Sippi’s moved to in Elm Grove? It’s called the Autumn Plaza. It’s at the bottom of the hill on Bluemound Road. I was impressed. It is a very small portion of land in a V shape. There is all the same architecture and is very well done. It is something we should take a look at.

Aesthetically, the current buildings are very nice. I think the high quality is reflected in what we already have and I would like to keep with a pattern like that. I would like to see more greenery along National Avenue. Right now National Avenue is like a mini freeway, so it would be nice to see more tree lines.

Ms. Esswein – The one concern with having a lot of trees is that it blocks the storefronts if they are trying to be visible. Other ways to achieve that is low planters, shrubs, etc.

One of the things to be sensitive to is the parking challenges. On Capitol Drive quite far west, just before you get into the marshy area, on the south side of the road they have one way little winding streets through the whole thing. That is a disaster too as far as parking. The parking is confusing because it has a lot of back areas. It is hard for the retailers to be visible.

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Ms. Esswein – I am hearing architectural materials should be similar, but not identical. What about a clock tower or public art?

Focus Group Comment – I like the theme idea similar to what we were talking about in Brookfield. It gives a reason to go in there and you know they are connected.

I think it is important that the buildings be inviting and not imposing. The four stories proposed by MSP was objected to by most people. I think the heights of the buildings be no higher than two stories. Many people in the Focus Group agreed with this.

Ms. Esswein asked how many felt three story, if it was well done would be OK?

Comments from the Focus Group were no it would not be OK, if it were set back or recessed off of National Avenue it might be OK, it’s OK to have bigger buildings on the out skirts but if there are big buildings in the middle, no one is going to want to go around them.

Ms. Esswein said the City can regulate how they look. There are lots of beautiful large buildings because of guidelines or architectural regulations. There can be ugly four unit buildings.

Focus Group Comment - The condos that run along 147 th Street across from Deer Creek Senior housing are almost like individual homes, but they are side by side. I’d like to see us stick with something along that format.

Ms. Esswein – Our challenge is the cost of the land. As we are meeting with the brokers, they are telling us that because of the cost of the land, developers need a certain density to come in. The question is how does the City balance that. If TIF money or tax dollars are not used to fill in the gap, what happens?

Focus Group Comment - Will we be able to have the demand in this area with Brookfield on one end and the continuing growth in the I-43/Moorland Road area?

Ms. Esswein – Those tend to be bigger box. That also attracts restaurants and other businesses. It is understanding the supply and demand and not spreading it so thin that suddenly New Berlin has vacancies all over. Let’s make a wish list. If you could have more services or more restaurants, what would you wish was here?

Focus Group Comment – A really nice restaurant overlooking the wetland on the Decade property would be awesome. Patio dining is key. All the popular new restaurants have it. People outside draw other people. A Loaf & Jug would be nice. We could try to get Houlihan’s back.

6 Focus Group 7/26/10 When I head out to do errands, I almost always end up on Bluemound Road. We are almost always at Best Buy, Sports Authority, Barnes & Noble, PetSmart. Something along those lines would be nice.

Mr. Kessler – Those range from mid to big box and the parking requirements will not fit.

Focus Group Comment – I would like to see a good quality butcher shop.

A brew house, pretzel shop, and bakery were mentioned.

Focus Group Comment – I don’t understand what New Berlin is doing to get all these businesses to build on the other side of I-43, but yet we can’t get them to come down into the main area that we are focusing on.

Mr. Kessler – Development follows the highway corridors.

Ms. Esswein – The City is actively being marketed.

Land Use Ms. Esswein talked about housing as a land use and asked for feedback. Ms. Esswein asked if there was support for more owner occupied condominiums?

Focus Group Comment – The side by side smaller units are fine. I want City Center to be single-family homes and side by side condos. The side by side condos that abut the golf course are awesome. People who pay $300,000 for a condo, will be shopping in there. I don’t think we need apartment buildings.

Ms. Esswein – I am hearing you want ownership and are concerned with height. Is anyone supportive of single-family within City Center?

Focus Group Comments – I think your fundamental question for the City Center concept is, is it time to rebalance and put more commercial rather than the intensity of residential that we were doing?

I think what I have been hearing, and I didn’t hear anything different tonight, is that the concept is to try to build a place where New Berlin people want to congregate. We want businesses around there because we think that is a good idea. If that is what we want, we have to create housing that compliments that. When you ask what will we accept, I think people will accept anything that contributed to that objective. People have mentioned high end restaurants. We need something that will enhance New Berlin, not just more of the same. I know that is difficult, but that is what I hear people want.

In our original discussion, we talked about the small commercial units being two stories, with the second story being a rental. If these are smaller businesses, one of the advantages could be that you have your business there and can live there in the upper unit. I don’t think we want the big boxes. We don’t have the room for them.

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Ms. Esswein – Your comment was more commercial, less residential. If we look at the map, are some of you envisioning the condo section as housing or commercial?

Focus Group Comments – I would like to see as much commercial as we can get to bring the people in.

Ms. Esswein – What if the market says that much commercial cannot be supported?

Focus Group Comments – We live in a mobile society so people don’t have to live where they shop.

Ms. Esswein – The brokers we are talking to say they can’t get businesses to locate along National Avenue so it will be an even bigger challenge to push them south.

Focus Group Comments – Are you going to build the commercial like what is existing right now? When people are traveling 30-40 m.p.h. down National Avenue they can’t see what is there. They are looking at the back of the building.

Mr. Kessler – There is signage. Whether the front of the building is facing National Avenue or not, the signage will still be the same.

Ms. Esswein – You won’t see Sendik’s when you are driving down National Avenue, you will see the sign. Once you have been there you will know it is there. It is the same thing for the shops between Walmart and Pick ‘n Save. You can’t see them from National Avenue because they are down so low, but once you have been there, you go back.

Mr. Kessler – What does everyone think of the new Sendik’s Plaza signs?

Focus Group Comments – We like them.

Mr. Kessler – Those signs required Plan Commission waivers for height and number of tenants. When we make Zoning Code adjustments, we will keep that in mind.

Ms. Esswein – If we can’t support more retail, but are not supportive of more housing, what about offices?

Focus Group Comment – Going back to the MSP land. I think that would be ideal for the restaurant that you had indicated before. It is such a narrow piece of land. The wetlands are on one side, the creek is on the other side. It would be great to have a restaurant with all glass windows looking out on both sides, with patio dining outside.

Mr. Smith – It is a great idea. The hard part is that it is difficult enough to get people to locate right on National Avenue.

8 Focus Group 7/26/10 Mr. Kessler – To add to that point, when we worked with Sendik’s, their demand was that nothing could be built in front of it.

Focus Group Comment – If you had the big pots and pretty walkways, I don’t think a parking lot vision is as bad as it sounds. There is a better view of the building that way. The lighting is a major consideration.

Summary Comments Alderman Wysocki asked for general comments from the Focus Group on what has been discussed tonight.

Focus Group Comment – The traffic pattern on National Avenue has to be taken care of first. If you start there, there may be a better chance for the retail. After you create what the community wants, then look at housing. We need to be consistent with what the vision is.

I am disheartened by not being able to maintain any ownerships without them being a chain type of thing. It is disheartening to see Mrs. Sippi’s and Wildflower Bakery leave. I would like to see more like that. Is our community not welcoming to private businesses or independent small businesses?

I also feel the same about the smaller locally owned businesses. I have heard tonight that we need to get more visibility along National Avenue so people actually know what is in City Center. I like the big sit down restaurant idea if it is where the residential is or where Margarita Paradise was going to go. I like the idea for the open spaces uses for the library square. I have also heard people mention a golf course. Even if we do bring some senior housing, a nine hole pitch and putt golf course would give them something to do. That will also bring in people from the outside.

I would focus on getting commercial development along National Avenue first and keep the residential unless we see the area along National Avenue filling up. My favorite spot for the restaurant is down by the post office.

Ms. Esswein – We will take all these comments and balance them with what we hear from the brokers. What the brokers are telling us is we can’t support any more retail without more housing. Parking for restaurants is about ten spaces per 1,000 square feet so it is more in terms of requirements then you see for even a big box.

Focus Group Comment –You are talking about people that are living in housing you are going to build there supporting the businesses. That is not going to do it. The housing that is coming in New Berlin citywide is what has to support it. It is not just housing that is built in City Center.

I agree that we need a housing component but I would like it to stay along the periphery. Where MSP’s development was would be prime commercial or low scale offices. We want to make sure we rewrite the PUD so we don’t have another developer coming in to

9 Focus Group 7/26/10 try to do the big huge apartment complex. I have heard that you can’t specify in the Zoning Code that it has to be owner occupied, but maybe we could accomplish the same thing by saying we want low density.

Ms. Esswein – We are investigating different deed restrictions. You are right, we cannot specify owner occupied, but when looking into it from the legal aspect, you can sometimes require a balance of some percentage ownership and some percentage rental.

Focus Group Comment – We could leverage all of the citizen’s involvement. We could have a campaign to support our local businesses. Perhaps the Chamber of Commerce could get involved in this also.

I think the housing component of this is the least of concern to us right now. I completely agree that the housing that we will build in there is not going to support all of those restaurants and retail. We have 40,000 people in New Berlin. That is what is going to support this. We are a mobile society. We go out to eat in Brookfield, Waukesha, etc. It is not only those places where I can walk to. The height restriction is a critical thing. I think we need to retain green space. No matter what we do with it, I am hoping it is not an all concrete development. I am hoping for a town square plaza in the center. If there is going to be any additional turn offs into City Center off of National Avenue, National Avenue will have to be slowed down.

I know it is hard for people to build buildings, and that is easier to move into an existing building. I wonder if we did spend the money to get the sewer, fire hydrants, and some of the walks in, how long it would take to recoup that if we could actually get businesses in there. Everybody knows you have to spend a little bit to make a little bit. Could we develop a portion, just enough to get people interested in coming this way?

Ms. Esswein – That is being discussed at some of the higher levels right now.

Focus Group Comment – I think the city square is a good idea, but it needs to be visible and cannot be that far south from National Avenue.

Oconomowoc’s downtown area where the band shell is has a lot of neat things going on, especially in the summer time. It might be worth contacting them to find out ways they use their area. It might give us some good ideas.

I like the jazz band idea. A music center area might not be a good idea near the library because of the noise.

I like the farmer’s market with a clock tower in that area. I would like the condos that are on 149 th Street as well as the Wimmer around the parameters.

In general, I think everyone would like to see that area developed into something that is convenient to younger people as well as older people. Older people don’t travel as much, they want to stay closer to home and want to have the conveniences closer to them such

10 Focus Group 7/26/10 as the grocery store, the Walmart store, Walgreens. It would be great to have condos that could hopefully keep the people from leaving New Berlin once they decide to retire and keep some of that tax revenue. I would also like to see the City get involved in some economic development assistance to bring some businesses in here to make it easier for the businesses to get into New Berlin.

Ms. Esswein – A cultural building, not just the activities is something else to think about.

Focus Group Comment – I think the comments have been great so far and I echo a lot of them that have been mentioned. I think the vision that I have is to see the green space incorporate the farmer’s market and cultural types of events throughout the year, but also to involve the community more such as reaching out to the Women’s Club. Perhaps all the different organizations that are out there in New Berlin can be centrally brought in to utilize the space so the community in total is coming to that area and it becomes the main part of New Berlin. We need a reason for people to be there and stay down there and support the businesses that are there. I am a believer of, if you build it-they will come, but you have to build the right thing. We are a mobile society and we go where we want to go because it is what we need, and if it is not here, we will travel somewhere else. I believe we need to start with the businesses. The residential can come later. The one story units, side by side, ranch condos seem to be the biggest need right now for people who are not ready to move into senior housing yet, but can’t go up and down stairs. I would like to see more of that.

I would love to see a huge campaign and signs that say, Shop Local First. New Berlin is a family based community. Many families stay here all their life because they love it here. Anything that is more accessible and community based to them would fit in.

One of the thoughts that hits home is there is no attraction here. For example, downtown Waukesha has the Art Crawl, and downtown West Bend has the river front which is a natural draw. We are really using libraries less and less. I personally do most of my research on the Internet. I don’t need to go to the library. The library is a good starting place as far as making an attraction with some community events such as the dog show that was mentioned. If we can start to focus the library on more event type orientated things to draw people and to hold people in that area for several hours where they will visit the shops and support the businesses. I hate to see this land abandoned. Put up a shack and rent kites. Let kids run through the field with a kite for $2.00/hr. There needs to be something to do, an entertainment as a draw. The underlying thing for residential is ownership. I realize there are legal restrictions on that. I think there were some codes that prevented retail below residential. I remember that when the owners of the Asia Restaurant relocated from Greenfield Avenue to National Avenue it was very difficult for them to find something where they could have their residence above the restaurant.

Mr. Kessler – The Code says it has to be B-2 Zoned and whoever lives in the second story has to be directly related to the business.

11 Focus Group 7/26/10 Focus Group Comment – Why is that a requirement? When a business owner owns the lower part, perhaps he starts out living above it but then hopefully succeeds and does well enough to move on but he would be restricted from renting it out. Running the business down below, he would still have an interest in the quality of the people that are living in it and have a day to day oversight of what is going on. I don’t speak for everybody, but if I had a rental unit, I would want oversight on my property. I think that the community would want the owner to have that type of oversight. We are restricting them by our Codes.

Mr. Kessler – It might be once a year that something like that crosses our desk. It is an unusual circumstance. We have very few B-2 Zoned properties with living units attached in New Berlin.

Ms. Esswein – Perhaps that could be looked at for a unique district, not being permitted everywhere in the City.

Focus Group Comment – I moved here from Milwaukee and that is a neighborhood. New Berlin has subdivisions, condos, condo associations, and neighbors. I have five neighbors to my property but it don’t really have a neighborhood. There is no place to congregate and say hello and push the buggy with the kids down the street. As I am considering aging, that neighborhood feel might be real important to me. Perhaps, we can fill a need there. If you fill that need, that is going to support the businesses and that is the bottom line. We have to support the businesses. Part of the problem` is economics, but part of it is just not sitting down and thinking about what is coming next and what need has to be filled.

Mr. Kessler thanked everyone for their time tonight and reviewed the public and open comment meeting schedules and websites for participation information. Alderman Wysocki thanked everyone for their interest and encouraged continuing participation.

12 Focus Group 7/26/10 CITY CENTER FOCUS GROUP DISTRICT 2 JULY 26, 2010

John Katzer 16801 W. Melody Drive Pat & Jerry Reinke 3348 S. Moorland Road Gary J. Nelson 14295 W. Beechwood Trail Dan Burkhardt 2830 S. Sunny Slope Road Paul Bailey 2350 S. Krahn Road Lori K 14360 W. Wilbur Drive Bernie Hintz 2315 S. Parkside Drive Ralph Giammarco 15125 W. San Mateo Ct. Carrrie Giammarco 15125 W. San Mateo Ct. Bill Koenig 2821 S. Acredale Road Larry Richter 3235 S. Regal Drive Suhas Pawar 15185 W. Vera Cruz Drive Vicki & Jeff Kipfmueller 15105 W. San Mateo Ct.

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