University of Illinois at Springfield
Norris L Brookens Library
Archives/Special Collections
Don Forsyth Memoir
F775. Forsyth, Don b. 1908 Interview and memoir 1 tape, 90 mins., 25 pp.
ADLAI E. STEVENSON II Forsyth, close friend and political ally of Adlai Stevenson, recalls their relationship over the years: Stevenson's presidential campaigns, governorship, and cabinet appointments; serving on the Illinois Veterans Commission; and the Democratic party and its activity in Sangamon County. He also discusses his political career and his support of Paul Douglas in his senatorial campaign of 1948.
Interview by Stephen Bean, 1975 OPEN See collateral file: interviewer's notes and photographs.
Archives/Special Collections LIB 144 University of Illinois at Springfield One University Plaza, MS BRK 140 Springfield IL 62703-5407
© 1975, University of Illinois Board of Trustees PREFACE
This muscript is the product of tape-recorded interviews conducted by Stephen Bean for the Oral History Office during the smrof 1975. Stephen Bean transcribed the tape. The transcript was edited by Stephen Bean and Kay MacLean and reviewed by Don Forsyth. The Don Forsyth Memir is one of a series of Interviews conducted by Stephen Bean on the topics of Adlai E. Stevenson 11's tern as Govemo~of Illinois, the 1952 Pres- idential campaipp, and the relationship between Stevenson and Springfield.
Don Forsyth was born in Mount Vernon, Illinois, on February 7, 1908. After graduation f'romthe University of Illinois in 1929, he remined in the Champaim-Urbana area to sell insurance. During the 1932 election campaigis he be- his mre than four decades of political involvemnt and following the Demcratic victory of that year, he moved to Springfield as an employee of Secretary of State Edward J. Hu@S?es. In 1942 he was chosen kmcratic candidate for state treasurer but was defeated by William Stratton. The next year he entered the Navy, and while serving in Washington, D .C ., he mt a fellow Illinoisan and future senator, Paul buglas . At the conclusion of World War 11, Forsyth returned to Springfield and established a successful insurance agency.
Still interested in politics, Mr. Forsyth ran unsuccessn;llly for trustee of the Univemity of Illinois in 1946. The next year Paul Douglas asked for his f'riend l s assistance and in 1948 Forsyth was a downstate advisor in Douglas senatorial campaim. During this campaign Mr. Forsyth mt gubernatorial candidate Adlai Stevenson; following his election in 1948, Governor Stevenson appointed Forsyth to the Illinois Veteran's CorrPnission. A close friendship developed between these two En which was to extend beyond Stevenson's years in Springfield. Mr. Forsyth was chosen by Governor Stevenson to head his 1952 reelection campaipp, but the draft of Stevenson as Demcratic presidential candidate saw Forsyth head Sherwood Dixonls carpaim instead. Acting upon his concern for the condition of the democratic pWy in predominately Republican San-n County, Forsyth conducted and won a write- in campaign for precinct corrmdtteeman in 1958. Later the same year he was elected county Demcratic Chairrrran and during his 2 year term the Democrats gained at the ballot box. Mr. Forsyth capped off his political career by serving as a member of the Demcratic State Central Cormnittee until 1964 when he was forced by a heart attack to retire fYom active politics. Today, Mr. Forsyth is still active in his insmce agency and retains his Me~st in Demcratic Pmy activities . Readers of this oral history roermir should bear in mind that it is a transcript of the spoken word, and that the interviewer, nmator and editor sought to preserve the informl, conversational style that is inherent in such historical sources. San@;anzon State University is not responsfble for the factual accuracy of the mmoi~,nor for views expressed therein; these are for the reader to judge.
The manuscript my be read, quoted and cited fYeely. It my not be reproduced in whole or in part by means, electronic or mechanical, without pemrdssion in mting fmm the Oral History Office, Sanguion State University, Springfield, Illinois, 62708. Don Forsyth Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Getthg into politics
Running for off'ice
Supporting Paul Douglas The 1948 campa,ign Getting to bow Stevenson Joining Stevenson ' s cab in& Stevenson's political relationships Stevenson in society Reelection actions Stevenson ' s president id decision Filling Stevenson's gubernatorial shoes Stevenson s presidential canpaipps Sangamn County political activities The State Central Comittee Growth of Demcmtic strength
Don Forsyth Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Don Forsyth, October 8 and 15, 1975, Springfield, Illinois. Stephen Bean, Interviewer.
Q. Mh Forsyth, what drew you into politics?
A. What year did I enter into politics? I entered in 1933 f'mm Champaigp, Illinois. I graduated f'mm the University [of Illinois ] and stayed over there-pduated in 1929. That's start, in the 1932 campaifg which elected sonu3 people in 1933 and, in fact, elected the whole Demcratic ticket.
Q. What were the issues that drew you into the campaign, and the candidates? A. Well, we had had Len Small as the gpvernor of Illinois and a lot of young people--I was very young at that tire-felt that we could do a little better than that. The Demcratic party was ming Henry Homer for governor and a wonderful slate of candidates, I thought, so we, as did rran3r young people over there, got into active statewide politics.
Q. What kind of m was Henry Homer? A. He was a good governor. He Id been a fine judge in Chicago. He was high class, I thowt. In 1936 we had a bitter primry campaign. Wnfortunately, I was working at that tir~for the secretary of state, Edward 5. Hwes, and in that catrpaipg we were on different sides, which sort of sieved me, but [Dr. Hem] Bundesen was running amst him in the primary and of course he just trqled Bundesen into the earth. Q. Were prilllary canpaigns and general election campaigns different at that time?
A. I think they were a little mre bitter than they are now. We were not as large then and in those days, in the 19301s, everybody was hungry-- just lfke I. I guess I was deli&ted I had a state job in the 1930's and there were--well, in the secretary of state's office there were one hundred and fifty thousand applicants for about a thousand jobs. So, politics mant a great deal to people that were in it, with the hope that perhaps they could get a job and quit starving. (laughs) It was a little mre bitter than it is now, and of course, we didn't have as rrmy people in Illinois then as we do now. Q. What did it feel like being a Demcrat mving into a Republican stmng- hold like Sangmn County?
A. When I carre here to live it was rather miserable. I couldn't afford to do much, but one thing I did enjoy doing was playing golf, and for some good reason, why, I was pemtted to join Illini Country Club. In those days, I think, out there there was about three hundred fifty Republicans and mybe twelve Demcrats. (lams) So when we got out there, why, we took quite a
Don Forsyth Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Don Forsyth 2
ribbing and quite a beating and it was rather chilly, but it's changed a lot since then. Q. Who was in charge of the orgpnization at that time? A. Well, primwily the organization was the Kelly-Nash ormization of Chicago. They had about--not as good an orgmization as [myor Richard J .] Daley , but a pretty ti@t one up there, and they had done well with it. And that ls what @t into the [Henry] Homer fi@t with the Kelly- Nash organization; he had cow fYom them but they fell apart, and it st bitter. But Kelly and Nash had a good or&mization. Ed Kelly was myor of Chicago, Nash was the Demcratic county &aim of' Cook, and I tho@t they were mn of stature. I liked them. Q. Was there the Downstate-Cook County split as mch in that tim?
A. I think there was. Of course, we young people were Downstaters. The party was looking for young people in those days. We had a @od gng. There was Charles Bliss who is still an attorney down in Taylomrille, Illinois. There was Sam Hicks who was an attorney from Mckansboro. Siman Kellerman, who was from Madison County; Wden Jones from here in Springfield, who was sort of the yomg people's liaison, statewide, at that tim with the Demcratic State Central Comnittee. And we got around and were speaking all over Illinois, and we were . . . the party was liking us all right. They needed new young people j ust at that t ime . Q. How did you become a state candidate in 1942? A. Well, I had-this is very interesting. In 1940 Homer had--well , let ' s go this way. In 1939 Homer had becom very ill. John Stelle was the lieutenant governor of Illinois, an Witious man. Stelle, son-eti~~along in there, took over as Wvemor of Illinois for the last ninety days of Homer's last four years. Stelle was on the ticket to be lieutenant governor amin. He called m one day up to his office up in the Senate chamber and said, 'h,I'm going to run for governor. I don't care who else runs, I'm going to et off the- ticket .ll At that tim Hamy Hershey had been nmd to m. And he said, "I can beat Hershey and 1'11 get the help of the old rn up in Chicas. I said, "1 don't think you will, he Is already @ven his word. l1 Well, " he said, "1 don't believe that. I think I will, so I Id like for you to run as state treasurer on ticket." And I said, "Well, I1m just not mingto run thfs year, John. I don't think that will work and I'm sure the Cook Comty orgpnization won't violate its word. '' So, 1 went down and talked to the secretary of state--w boss, I was in his employ at the tim--and told him this. I took II-Q~ wife to the show that ni@t and I had a call fbm Pat Nash in Chicago, at the show. And he said, 'We want you to rn for lieutenant evernor; we're circulating your petitions toni@t in Chicago. l1 I saltd, "I lrn not going to nm for lieutenant governor. " And he said, "Why not?" And I said, "I told Stelle I wasn't going to run and I don't violate w word. " Well, he said, "Boy, you're not very smrt , are you?'' And I said, Well, I guess not. If you expect re to violate nly word, I'm dumb. " He said, ''No, no. Go out and ask Stelle to give you wo~dback. " Well, that seelned (lams) rather brilllavlt to me, so I,took rr@ wife horn. f'rom the show and went out to see Stelle and he said, "I absolutely WILL. That l s atYou mnz for lieutenant pvemor and I won't run anybody a@%t you on rqy ticket. Don Forsyth Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Don Fomyth 3
Well, then the Homer people, where we had this bitter fight in 1936, decided that if Fomyth was on that ticket they'd take a walk. And they didn't want to blow the ticket apart, so Nash called TE and said, 'Will you get off the ticket? It ' s getting real mu&. " "Of course, I didn't ask to rmn in the first place." He said, "If you ever want to run for anything, you let m know.11 And two years later I decided I wanted to mnn for somthing. It wasn't a very good choice, the year, but he said, "Yes, sir." I wanted to m for state treasurer, and he said, "You're running.
Q. How were indivfduals chosen by the Demcratic party at that tim? A. About the sam as they are nm. They had a conference between Downstate leaders and Upstate leaders, and anybody could run against them but it was kind of futile to do so. For example, Ed [Fdward J.] Barrett, when I was running, decided he wanted to be state treasurer. He took out against the organization at that t% and I beat him amst alone in Chicagp. Mr. Nash told I was a candidate and I got mst all the votes up there, and he was a Chicago m. So it was-and as I say, I honestly and sincerely think they were trying to--I hope this is true--were trying to pick sow decent mn of integrity and honor to clean up some of the details that all parties get hto if they don't do well, if they don't keep -sh, honest and good blood. In there.
Q. What was your opponent like, William Stratton? A. I thou@, early in the year that he was going to be very easy to defeat. In those days he was a congresssran. And he and Congressmn-at-Large Stephen Day had-we thou&t we had them caught sending out NazP lfterature under their congessional. f"ranks out of Washington. We had pictures of them bum- ing the rrail bags, we really pistol-whipped with this. (laster)
But along in the smrof 1942, when I was muvling for state treasurer, [President k.anklin D. 1 Roosevelt drafted eighteen-year-old kids and rationed gas, and the farmrs were told they weren 't wing to have gas to run their - tractors, and I could feel the cold breath hit us. We had a fourcman slate running-Ray McKeough for Unfted States senator, Ben AdarrmvsM for congress- m-at-large, John Wieland for superhtendent of public instruction and me. And fkmn that day when that st done, I could just feel it chill out. I thought we had won ging away, but all a sudden I knew we didn't have it won. But Roosevelt had to do what he did and I find no fault with that ; for the good of the country, I'd take a beating every day and three times on Sunday. &. How did people campai~during this period?
A. Oh, we worked like do@; we were out all the tim. We used cars. We had two cars gofng around Illinois. I used rrg car and drove it sorne and son~timsI'd have a driver-&t a driver on vacation tim over at the secretary of state's office. We were going about eiateen hours a day for about a year. Every town, get out and--well, you'd advertise, or tell them you were coming. Get it in the newspaper, going to met at, oh, let's say the cowthouse and be there at noon in one of these little towns. But we'd really work; we worked very hard. I just spent a year. I never worked as hard in rqy life.
Don Forsyth Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Don Forsyth 4
Q. You campale;ned for the full year?
A. Campaigned the f'ull year until Noverher when they defeated us. But we really mved, and we mved fast and hard and we were arcbitious. I guess I was the youngest man on the ticket. I'd stay up longer and worked about an howl harder than anybody else every day.
Q. What did you do after your defeat? A. Well, I went back to job. As I told you , I worked for the secretary of state's office. I went back there and worke d. The war had started ri&t in f'mnt of this election tim, on December 7, 1941, and we were running in 1942 and the slates were mving, or being picked, you know, in 1941. I tded to get in the serrmlce. Now, I had two klds and I wanted to get in at an off'icerls pay because I didn't think I could afford to be in unless I got enough to take care of the fardly. It took me until Fall of 1943 to get in as a lieutenant in the Navy. So, I did work in the secretary of state's offlce and tried like the deuce to get in and finally got into the service. Q. What did you do after the war? A. Cam back to Springfield and went back into the insmce business. I'd been in; I guess I did not tell you that when I gpt out of the university I stayed over on the campus there to sell seniors of the university life insurance. I got back here and studLed som possibilities and decided that I'd better find sowthing that would remunerate me for the tim I was going to spend, because I was young and had learned to work eighteen hours a day and I didn't mind doing It, And I knew the insurance business would be good to me if I could work that hard. So I cam back hem and started an insurance agency and it 's been kind to rn ever since.
Q. When did you @t back involved in politics? A. Oh, I was--I guess I have always been involved. I think a m o&t to have an interest In political life. In 1946 the party ran me for trustee of the University of Illinois. Now, you know how it works, a cormdttee over at the university recomnds three and then you don't do any campaigning really, or we didnlt use to do any canrpa3gning, but your m's on the statewide ballot. And the Republicans had another good year in 1946 and we were all defeated. But that one, I did not do work like I did in 1942. I had an interest. I had am interest, I still have an interest. son is a trustee of the univer- sity now, elected statewide. He got in on a good year, but he did some work, too. He wasn't like his dad on that running for trustee, he mved amund sow. Q. In 1948 you were involved with Paul Douglas. What were your duties with the Douglas capaigp?
A. I had mt Douglas--I had known his wife, Mly Taft Douglas, who was a conpsswolran, a lovely, high class woman. She had hired a secretary that I had put in politics, a worn by the name of Merle Whitford, a lovely worn. Merle got m interested in Mly Tafi Douglas in the first place. Then Paul, when he got injured as a Mine on sorre island in the Pacific, the nam I've forgotten, they brought him in to Washington and I was in the undersecretauyls
Don Forsyth Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Don Forsyth - 5
office.' I went out to the hospital to see him-Merle called me and said he was there--and got to know him pretty well and was imp~essedwith what he had been--I read about it--in Illinois. He tamt, as you how, up in Chicago and had mn? for aldem. A hi& class m, I liked hlm.
So when he decided he wanted to run for state office, it didn't mtter who was for him, Don Forsyth was for him. And I thought the organization would nam him and I thowt and hoped they would nam him to run for governor. Well, I guess I felt I was unoff'icially Downstate advisor to him with mybe Eve or six other people. And on the day they were picking candidates to run, I had recomnded to Paul that he get into a county where nobody would think he would be and just let it ride. I thought they'd nam him Wvernor of Illinois..if he stayed away *om talking to anybody else on the phone or let them catch up with him. But he didnlt get in hiding that well (laughs ) because they found him-and I think he was down in St. Clair County, down amund East St. Louis--and said to him, this was f"mm the State Central Cornrdttee meeting, 'We think it mi&t be better if you would run for senator and Stevenson would run for governor. '' And he did what I didn*t think he should of done, he said, llThatls all right wlth rw. l1 I believe had he said, "I want to be g~vernor,~'they would've sdd all right. And 1 wanted it that way because at that time I did not know Stevenson at all, never mt him, didnlt know him. Q. You didn't know anything of Stevenson? A. Didn't know anything about him, didn't know anything about him. Q. Do you think the ticket would have been better if they would have stuck with. . . . A. No, I don't know that I think that now, but I surely thought it then. I think Illinois was dch with those two men. I was just delighted, histori-. cally. And it my be that the world was better served that it fell that way, I don't know. But they were both mn of mat caliber and integrity and honor and decency. So, at that tim I was disappointed but now I guess I've learned to like Stevenson as well as I liked Douglas, and believe m, that was a great deal.
Do you have any feelings about Tmnran running for reelection? Wasn't too impressed with him. (lams) He had--I thought he was going keep prices frozen after World War 11, and as a veteran I felt they should f'rozen another year. And all a sudden he took the f'reeze off and let every- ing go up, and I thought the veterans were hurt. So, yes, I wasn't very impressed with it. I'm telling you, (lams) everybody else says that they were big for it. I was not, and I know I wasn't. Q. Did you fear that Tmnran would hinder the campaign of Douglas and Stevenson? A. I thought he'd smsh it, smther it, kill it! I just was sick.
'Lieutenant in Domstic Transportation Bmh, Office of Undersecrebary of the Navy, charged with assipping passenger cars, jeeps and comd reconnais- sance vehicles where needed. (Don Forsyth) Don Forsyth Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Don Forsyth 6
Q. What was the campaf@;n like in 1948? A. Well, I guess I can best answer that--I saw Stevenson and Douglas get off the train about four days before election here in Springfield, and at the comer of Fourth and Washington Street here, I stopped them and shook hands. Met Stevenson for the second tire, even then. I'd heard him a couple of t-s but I hadn't been up to meet him but once at any meting. I said, IfPaul, how do you think this is going?" and he said, "Oh, I think it ' s rrdserable .'I "And what do you think, Go~ernor?~'He said, I1Oh, terrible, just terrible." This was three or four days before election, 1948. They thought it was awful chilly, too. But it wasn't. It was not. Q. What was Sangamn County like in 1948? A. About the sm as it--well, Sanppmn County in 1948 was still. . . . I guess I'd have to look up the file, and I have it, but memory tells I-E it was ovemhelrrdna Republican still. lQ partner, I had a partner at that tire, said to m, "Tmuranls going to win, Don." IYou1d better p see a psychiatrist ," I said to him, "that Is not possible." I believe, had I been a bettFng m, I could have won--I helieve I could have got forty to one odds that Dewey was ging to beat him.
Q. So how did you feel after the election?
A. 1 didntt feel any different, except I was delighted with the state of Illinois. I man, I guess I was delighted that buglas won. I was delighted, once I @;ot to know Stevenson, that he'd won. And I guess--I had no phobia on Trmrt.lan, I just didn't feel about him like I did about these other two men. I don't today, I don't today. Q. Did you attend any of the haugural ceremnies for the governor?
A. Yes, I did. Yes, they were over in the [State] Armory, yes. That Armory was full of people, just full. It was. . . . Yes, I am trying to think throw that--those ceremnies as such don't rnem mch to m, I've been thm@ too many of them, but yes, sm I did. I can rernerrber it very well.
Q. What took place in those ceremonies? A. Well, had the usual invocation, as you know. Had delegates from all over the state, each county would have a certain pup. Or I guess rmybe it worked as who could get tickets, and I think that was a State Central Cormittee thing, except that the candidates had X rimer of people they could invite and of course all their family would be there, mthers and fathers and brothers and sisters. They told what they were going to do, or try to do, and it was a projection of the fiture, trying to assure the people they'd mde a good choice. And they had made a ~odchoice in 1948. The people of Illinois in rqy opinion made an excellent choice.
Q. Do you re~nberCarl Sandburg talking? Mary Jane Phsters remmbers him.
A. No, no I donlt. MaYy Jane would, she's mre literary than I am. But no, I do not remrher that.
Q. When was the first tire you saw Stevenson after the election? Don Forsyth Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Don Forsyth 7
A. Some veterans in Chicago, in a veteran's organization to which I belong, had called about three or four months after Stevenson was elected and said, "Don, there is so~bodyin the veterans organization in Chicaw that is trying to force us to buy land on a veterans building propyam that belongs to him and we don't think that's rfght.'l And I said, "Of course it isn't ri&t .I1 llWell, we ld like to talk to the Governor. l1 This was their state- mnt to r~,''Could you rrake an appoint~nt?" And I said, "Well, I' 11 try. "
So I called over to the msion; the Governor at that time was spending par% of his tine out of the msion. He'd work rraybe two or three horn at the mansion, then over in the capitol--worked both places, I dontt know the break- down of tirne but he was there at the mansion a lot. I talked to Cam1 Evans, who was one of the secretaries, and asked for an appoint~ntand she gave me an appointrent, oh, say, two weeks away on a Thursday to be ower at the capitol building and bring these two En. So I called them in Chicago, and in those days, why, it seemed to rr~everybody was still rather poor and veterans couldn't afford to waste mney. They cam down here for the meeting and we went over there at four o'clock in the afternoon.
One of the Govemorls We secretaries said, "What did you want to see the Governor about?ll And I said, 'Well, that l s what I intend to tell him when I see hh. And he said, 'Well, you can't do it that way, you have to tell me. " And I said, llHad I wanted an appointmnt with you, I would have made one. Now, I want to see the Governor. I have an appointmmt with him. l1 And he said the Governor was out of town. And on that I said some things that I wish I had not of said that relate to intepity and when a rn gives his word there's no place he can be but where he said he would be, and that these two men that had paid to corn down here were poor En and I was wing to pay the round trip, both ways, for them. And their mmry and mine would be equivalent, that we have a governor that does not keep his word, and well1 just tell you good-bye, W. Secretary. And we did. Q. Did you met Stevenson af'temards? A. Oh, about a week or two later Cam1 Evans called up and said, ''Mr. Forsyth, I'm sick, I1m just sick about this, and would you bring those men back and come over to the msion on a certain day?" I said, "No, I will not ." 'will you contact them?lt "No, I will not .ll She sald, "Give IE their msand their addresses and their telephone nunbers and 1'11 contact them, and maybe they can induce you to corn back here with them. lt I said, "1 don lt think so. l1
But she did call them and they did agree to COE at a later date, it was a week or so f'rom that date. And they called me and leaned very hard for w going over there with themand speaking for them. So I ax: uiesced, and over we wmt on thki day and there was-the Gswrno~ (la-&s) 3own in the hasemnt of the mansion, _and we had this meting with him.
Q. What was your first impression of Stevenson as mvernor? A. He bqnessed m beautiwly because we told him this problem. He said, ''That is not problem, but that is a problem. These appointees that are trying to force these ~n-as you say, this is true, trying to force them into this land--= not appointees." And I sad, "Theylre yours as long as they're on your payroll. Doesn't matter who appointed them ahead of you, Green or who it was, theylre yours now. And that's not a very sod excuse to me." Don Forsyth Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Don Forsyth 8
He called Carol Evans and turned around kmhis desk, we were sitting in front of it, and said so~thingto her. And in about two or three rrhutes he had this m, that we were talking about that was doing a bad act fo~ the State, on the phone. He indicated to him that if what we said were true, he would recomnd that he stop imdiately whatever he was doing because the jail was wing to be pretty close to him. And he didnlt stutter one bit telling this rran what he was going to do if this guy was doing what we said he was doing. So this imp~ssedrre; it just went like lightning, the action, moved. Inpressed re favorably. Q. When were you appointed to the Illinois Veterans CormLssion? A. This particular day we flinished this work and said, "Thank you, Governor, we'll get on our way. It was good of you to do what you've done." He said, "Sit here a little while longer.'' He said, "Now, Forsyth, you've been hard- nosed and pretty talkative about what a o@t to do ln the world. I guess I need sore people like that in this cabinet of mine, and I'd like to have you be a veteran co~ssioneron the Illinois Veterans Co~ssion." Wwernor, forget it. I'm busy, I've ppt w own work. I haven't been how long fkom the service and I'm building an &ncy and there is no way I could do it. And he said, "There you are, now. People get pretty talkative and pretty brave and say what they owt to do and I'm asking you what you're going to do for your state." He said to these two mn with me, "Now, you talk to your organization in Chicago and mke Forsyth do what he's supposed to do for his state. '' And I said, "Governor, you won't sell E that way. 'I "Don, I just don't understand this. You how how everybody else o@t to run hfs business. Now, I tell you we need some help in this state and we want your help. I' (lams) So within two weeks they had the poups up in Chicago leaning on n'y back to take this appointmnt and I f'inally did, and it was a ni@tmre, just a nightmre, in the use of t-.
The Veterans Co~ssionpaid twenty-five dollam when the Corrnrission mt, which was once a mnth. I, every morning of life, aWst , for a couple years there had people from that office over in office saying, "Now, Don, here ' s what l s happening down there, what do you think we ought to do? 'I And it took an endless amount of t* and I was rraking twenty-five dollars a month. But it was a joy to be around hFm. And mybe once every two months we'd have some problem that we thoat he owt to be alerted to, and since I was here and the other Demcrat--there were two Demcrats and one Republican. Jack Gleason of the First National Bank in Chicago, an officer up there, was the other Demcmt on theComiission at that tire. And a man namd Jams Ringley, who was a Republican, was the other one. So I was here and they'd call rre to go over and see the Governor on thin@--@ to know him fairly well. Q. What was the reasoning behind the low paying of cabinet appohtmnts and state offkids at that tire?
A. Well, I guess it was the sam theory that Stevenson was using to mike me take this, that was that you ought to give sorething in this world to your state, and it isnlt too bad a theory, really. Still could be a good one. It will never be used am, but it will be a good one. I don' t believe people give much on a salary of forty thousand a year. I think the average mis getting along pretty well that corms down here and goes to work at forty thousand 'a year. I don't care what he mde before, he could Hve 6fi -f'ORy - Don Forsyth Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Don Forsyth
thousand in Springfield, live well. That to me isn't serving very big for your state, but I guess I'm not going to f'ind that sort of theory, eve. Because I believe the low-pay days are gone historically. Even our m, Navy, Air Force, and so forth, as you know, they get paid a lot more than when World War I1 was on-whole new concept.
Q. What did you think of Stevenson's first appointmnts to key positions?
A. I gzless as a Demcratic politican--there are a lot of people, I guess there are rrmy Democratic politicans who didn't like this. I found no fault with what he was doing. I just found no fault whatsoever. I felt like it was a slight bit like when we started politics, simLlar to that, where held better get new, good, clean faces mvPng in political life. And I think he was doing it and doing it well. So, while rrany didn't like it, I think I approved it because we needed new faces and we st111 do.
Q. Who do you think was his best early appointrent to a key post?
A. I think one of the best appointments that I ever saw him rrake was William McComrdck Blair who was a secretary that; he brou@-it down here with him. Bill Blair carre flwm a wealthy family Ln Chicago--absolutely loyal to the Governor. He went the whole route with the Governor, all the way thmu& all the capaiggs, just was a mgnificent gyy . Nobody 'd ever heard of him Downstate when he came down here.
There were so mmy that were good, I thowt. Now, J9m Mulroy cam down here. I don't how whether you've ever heard of that name. I like him, thought he was on target on his business. That whole mnt-and the girls he had, like Margaret Munn and Carol Evans, were outstanding. They weE j us t doing a fine j ob . He had a good force around him, I thought. And those directors, I could nam som of them now; mny of them I've forgotten. Like Charlie Casey was in the [State] Highway Departmnt , now the Departmnt of Transportation. Roy Yung was with the Depardxmt of Agriculture. He got kicked around on the Horscrreat Scandal, but Roy Yung was a decent, good, hi& class rran and wasn't entitled to being kicked at all, in rry opinion.
But Stevenson faced up to everything like that just like a soldier. I never will forget the day he called me and talked about that, the Horsemat Scandal out at the Fairgmunds. He said, "What do you think? What's the right thing to do?" I sad, "Do what you told that mn in Chicago you were going to do on the vet-. If they're wrong, put them in jail." He said, ''That ls what I lrn going to do. " So, that 's the way Adlai Stevenson was. J3e always said not, "What's sod for me?1' but 'Whatls the ri@t thing to do?" and this impressed IE beautifully. Q. Did people around here know much of Richard Daley when he was first appointed director of ~veriue?
A. Yes, he'd been a state senator and was well lfked and admired. Dick Daley, in rry opinion, was a fine state senator and was am excellent director of revenue. And I just have never hemd anything except newspaper talk that relates to any indecencies that the Daley family have done. I just never have heard this-- as far as Dick goes. I guess you read about this stuff of [his son] taking the insurance exam. I don't know anything about that, but I do know this, that Dick Daley hasn't asked for any favors in his life, except for the people of
Don Forsyth Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Don Forsyth 10
Chicago to vote for him. I think he's served any place he's served with distinction. And he was well-liked down here.
Q. The Downstate appointments, it seemd like Stevenson's appointments coveredothe whole state. You mntioned Roy Yung before, how was he brought intothe. . . . A. I don't know how Roy got his job. He'd been a Young Democrat in politics for yeam until he @-well, let s see, in 1948 Roy would have been about forty years old, so he wasn 't a very yomg Demcrat at that t k, but he had been. !!(y mmry tells me he had come up fmm Sesser, Illinois, to Decatur. What he was doing at Decatur, I do- not remrrber. But I liked Roy Yung and liked the way he conducted himself, and he was an honest m, strictly honest. Joe Firth was on the oil and gas inspection. He lives here now. Don't how where Joe carre from, but hi@ class, decent in the way he ran his business.
Charlie Casey, I believe, was from Carrollton. Charlie Casey was a decent, good m. You my have mmry of those 'mms. I guess we should have looked at a [Illinois] Blue Book and mybe I could tell you about so^ of these people better. I've forgotten sorewhat who was in there at the time. Oh, I know, there was the -st fmm down in lkdison County, Dutch nam, real hl& class fellow that had one of those di ctorships. He was a jpod man, but I can1t think of his nar~at the mmnt9 . Q. What was Stevenson like in handling relations with the General Assembly? He's often criticized for this. A. I felt that he had som real adroit young people mving between his office and up there 131 the General Asserrbly. We had, and I think mre so then than now, sow of what I would call poor types of pros over in the General Asserrbly. So= that were pretty loose with asking folks to help them out financially for a vote. I have a distinct feeling that they couldn't like Adlai Stevenson very well--that type of man--I don't think he sqwed with them. So, I guess the lack of warmth was not caused by Stevenson. I think it would be caused by their conscfences, that they weren't the same type of guy that he was. I sincerely believe this to be true. And as I say, I think thin@ are better in the General Asserrbly than they used to be.
But I thowt he--well, he was a chavndng man. And anybody who wanted to like people, like a person, would have a hard time disliking Adlai Stevenson unless they had some other phobfa, and as I say, I think som of them did have another phobia. Q. How influential were Paul Powell and Senator [William J. ] Connors?
A. Connors was very influential, and Connors liked Adla3 Stevenson. He liked him. I used to see him over at the msion and around there, and he'd always SW3 llHowls the little m?" and, "He's a great gyy. " Powell was very in- fluential, but I don't think he cared much for Stevenson. But he was very in- fluential. I did not feel there was any great wavlrrth flouring from Powell to
-.
Don Forsyth Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Don Forsyth 11
Stevenson. I just did not.
Q. Even though Powell served on his caxpairn staff? A. Powell was a Demcrat, he worked for the party. But there wasn7$ the same warmth there was between--well, Connors, Botchy Connors had mre warrrkh for Stevenson than Powell did by a mile, in opinion.
Q. How much Mction was there between the Governor and the Republican [Wallace] Thonpson in the Senate?
A. Gee, I'm not very good on that. I don't believe I'm capable of answer- ing that one.
Q. How did Stevenson and the local party get along In the filrst few years? A. I think the party is always hungry. There is nothing wrong with this. I have a feeling that locally they weren't mving as well as they could. But basically, at that time Rossfter was chaim of the Democratic party here and I think Pete Rossiter liked Adlal Stevenson. Early, I don't think he thowt he was getting as many jobs as he needed. And Sangamn, histori- cally, as you my know, has always got an unfair mmt of jobs, always, because they 're here to hamt fo&s every day. And you couldn't satis0 San@;arnon County mst years with patronage if you'd have ten thousand jobs . Now, I as an old county chairrran of Sawnwould say that. We j ust couldn ' be satisfied because we had so mny people who could get to us every day saying, "Hi. Now, what about today? Can you get me help? I'm starving. " So Sangamn--but Stevenson helped the party build here with his integrity and with the jobs he dld have. He helped.
Q. How did the local organization feel about the state police affair? A. Well, I think (laughs)--you man taking that out of politics? Yes, they didn' t libre that at all, didn lt like that at all.
Q. Was there much outcry by the whole state about that? A. I think it was generally a big boo-hoo match by the Democratic leader- ship-I'm talking about political leadership, yes. I'd forgotten about that. Yes, they really cried about that. Q. How was social life in Springfield after Stevenson arrived?
A. Well, Stevenson mved around nicely. He didn't mve as much as Otto Kerner, but wherever he mved, he was liked. He had the awful bad problem, as you know,- of his wife falling away f"rom him. . He could have mved better had he had a wife here, in rqy opinion. His sister cam -dBm, [Elizabeth3 Buffie Ives, to mge.the -prgxion. But he was wamn and-his kids we= warm kids t~ have mmd. They were nice and they wen+ lfked. I think Stevenson mved around,. as-I say, Kemer. that not as w-& as Kemer was mving aT9: the tine.-. I feel- ~erner probably mved better than anpbody I've seen.
But Stevenson mved nicely and it was good. He made mmy--he had many Piends when he can^ here, there were a lot of people who knew him well. Like the Don Funk family and, oh, I will think of more. But there were a lot of people Don Forsyth Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Don Forsyth 12
who knew him and liked him historically from the old days, going to school with him. And as you how, he was mund here with his folks when his dad was secretary of state. I'm sure it was his father that was secretaq of state. Q. What was the reaction of the comnunity and yourself to the dlvorce? A. Well, I guess I grieved it, because by that tim I was his friend and he grieved it so much. When It was finalized he didn't talk about it, but I went over there one tim to the capitol building and I had read this in the paper a day or so before that the divorce was final and said, llGovernor, I'm sorry about you problem. l1 And he said, "I'm heartsick. It So he pieved it.
E;ND OF SIDE ONE Q. Mr. Forsyth, what were your impressions of Elizabeth Ives?
A. I lfked Elizabeth Ives. She was rather strong as a person. I liked her husband Ernest Ives who was pretty adroit, I thought. I enjoyed him, played bridge with him. And she, Elizabeth, could think up a lot of work for other people to do, but when I was mmaging that gubernatorial campaign the second time, why, I made it rather clear that we'd mu? it rqy way, as I was campaign rrmager. She's willing to gp along if you make clear the stand you1re going to take. I liked her very mch. Q. How does the govemorls msion compare today >physicallyand socially to what it was in the Stevenson era?
A. I think it was warrmer under Stevenson than at present. I think that the present governor uses the mion well, he has many things there and many types of people in. And I politically think the rrmsion is a great asset fbr any governor to have. Now as far as the structure, It l s so different than it was, it Is like ni@t and day. I can remuber (laws) the old kitchen over there where, well, it was sort of-crowded. Now they have plenty of morn for everything and use it t-hat way and have big wups over there, lwger - than they used to. - -.. Q. What was the effect of the scandals of his assistants on the Governor?
A. Oh, I think temporarily it depressed him. I know I had a call on the Horsemat Scandal to corn over there and he said, 'What do you think we ought to do with people like this?" And I said, 'Thy, I think we ought to, or you ought to, just lift the jail up and drop it down on top of anybody that sins a@st the State. l1 And he said, 'Well, that's just about what I intend to do. I' But it depressed him. He put a lot of ~Onfidenceinto almst everybody with whom he worked closely. And he had a quick rebound ability, he cam right back and he went to work at his work. And I think he could move like lightning when he had to. Q. So you think the charge of being indecisive is unfair? A. I think it's untrue. I think when he wanted to move, he mved like light- nhg.
Don Forsyth Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Don Forsyth
Q. What, do you think his re1ation.s were with the pmss? A. I thought that they respected him and liked him. When he first came down, I believe that mst of them didn't know him, in the Illinois press I'm talking about, the press corps here in the capitol building. But I think when they pt to laow him, they liked him. And I had a feeling that the press would rather had soEone who put on a little better party, as Ear as they were concerned. When he had the press over I don't think he supplied them with liquor and things like had been done, and they thought he was a little bit ti@t with his mney. And perhaps he was, I don't know. He didn't appear that way to me, but they thought he was. He didn't waste any mney. Q. How important was V. Y. Dalm to Adlai Stevenson? And what kind of m was he as far as promting the Governor?
A. Well, I have a feeling that--I didn't know V. Y. Dallman as well at that tkre as I got to know him later. I think V. Y. Dallrran was an intense Demcrat. He was for good govemnt and he was for Adlai Stevenson. He didn't have the access to the Stevenson fmly that he had later on in the Demcmtic party in this area, in opinion. Now, I ended up in 1958 aa county chairrman of this county and he was just as strong a right arm as anybody ever saw. He fought like a tiger for us and he was gtting along in age then. So I have a feeling that DalZxraul, throw his life, eve demcracy a real pod voice in this area. He was brave about it too.
Q. When did the Governor ask you to join his reelection cornnittee? A. I think it was in--I'm sure it was in January of 1952. kt me see, would that be 1952 or 1951? Well, it was when he was getthg ready to run agiin, the second time, for governor. In January he talked to me and said, 'Would you assist on this?" And I said, ''Let me think about it ." I thou@ awhile and called him and said, "What's duty?" P@ duty, the way I read the book, was to be his personal campaignmanager and to see that the money was raised to rrake the race possible. And I accepted, and we did very well. We had all the money we were going to need in the campaign by the time he went to the [Demcratic National] Convention. He had a lot of fYiends. We'd been over this territory statewide before, I had. We had asked the people that we thowt should be for him to donate their the and energy and mney. And they did very well for us, very well indeed. Q. Who else of importance was on the reelection staff? A. Well, I guess that almsst every single director is on the reelection staff. Around here, Stan Fwlk resigned his job with Central Illinois Public Service Company and cam over to help run the headquart;ers here. Don Fwlk, who was his close f'riend f'rom at school and president of SanmElectric, was our president of Stevenson for Governor Codttee. And as I say, di~ctorswere peat help. And of course, we used--I thought it was necessaxy to use the county [email protected] because early in his campaign they felt they were getting left out on patronage, as you rray remrnber. And I think that improved tremndously before he ran the second time for governor before he was lifted for President. So I think this was the basic way we were putting this together, but the mney just came in nicely. We had around a half rrdllion dollars already to go when he went to the convention. Q. Did the problem of -Time rrawzine and other publicationsJ starting to question
Don Forsyth Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Don Forsyth 14
him as a presidential candidate have any interference in the governorls race?
A. When he left for the convention, I think he did not remerher that I was going as an alternate to this convention. I had a note *om hw-14ve lost it, I wished I still had it--where he sent a check over that somebody had sent to him as a canpaign contribution and said, "Don, this check should have come to you. Well1 be back next week and go agah on this g~bernatorialcascypai@.~' That Is exactly what he said. So I have a feeling that he went to the convGn- tion with his mLnd, as a glcmerality, mde up--I had a feeling that he was happy about all the wonderful publicity he was getting nationally, but he still thou@% he'd be running for governor. I had this feeling intensively. Q. But you personally, or the corrnrarnity as a whole, didn't have that feeling that he was going to be a presidential candidate at the tirne? A. I thought he would never do it. We had a long discussion about Eisenhower's popularity, he and I, Governor Stevenson. I had said to him, "The Good Zord couldnlt beat Eisenhower. It would be impossible. You couldn't, nobody could, and I just think you better wait for another tim." And I thought we were agreed on that. Now, I didn't ask for his word on it because this was his life to live, but I would have bet ten to one that he would not run for President.
Q. So you believe that the dmf't was a real one?
A. I think it was an unusual thinn in Illinois. At this convention I heard some Demcratic politicam from 11~inoissax l1Ijhoop it up for hii% for President, let Is get him out of Illbois." Sam of these old pros of the kind that you have seen in politics that have made us ashaned--mybe had their hand in the cracker barrel. They wanted him out of here. I did not. I wanted him to stay here and I thbk his chances--well now, I rray be wrong. I would have liked to have seen him President, but not at that tim in history because I didn't thirk he could get there over Eisenhower. Q. What was the national convention like? A. Oh, it was great. It wwas absolutely great. I had never been to one before, and his speech was beautiful. I've got a copy of it someplace, his acceptance speech. I guess I was sick that he was doing it, but Ithowt he was as good as anybody could find in the Demcratic party to mu?. Yes, it was a fine conven- tion--a lot of action. My mmry tells m that this is the tim where [Paul] Douglas got entrapped to be against him because he was for [Fstes ] Kefauver . Does this Wesense? And I guess that impact was so much on IE because, as I told you before, I was a pat friend of Douglas1 and I just grieved that he was in this position. It was a bad position for him to be h. And yet he would do whatever he thowt was right, regwdles.
Q. Were national conventions any different than they are today? A. I think not. More televison wing on these days by far, (laughs) and in those days it was prclmily radio. But otherwise-people get to see more about it, but it's mch the same I think. Q. What was the welcom horn like in Springf'ield for the Governor? A. It was good. We had a real good party. (laws) Again, I'm having to pull
Don Forsyth Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Don Forsyth this out of q~ shoes. It seem to m that we went down to the County Build- ing [Old State Capitol] and so= Republican got up in the top of the building (lams) while we were having this big party on the Square and dropped a sign, Eisenhower For President, out the window. (laws) But otherwise, why, it was great and he was joyous about it. Well, we had the Square, the Square the way it used to be, just full of people. Q. Was there any conflict over who was going to run for governor afterwards? Ifve read that Secretary of State [Edward J. 1 Barrett wanted to run, and then the Governor was in a spot over who was going to run. A. Exactly true. This was tremendously interesting. The lieutentant governor was Sherwood Dixon. Bmtt at that the--let iw see, would he have been secre- tary of state then? I would say that-nicely I would try to say this, Dixon was as square and as clean, his reputation was unvarnished or mblemlshed. A lot of us wanted Dixon to run, on a choice level. Barrett was mre of the old school of politican in many of our rrdnds and we had a terrible fi&t in the State Central Codttee. Dixon finally won it, but it was a bitter fi@t. And I guess I feel that with the Eisenhower landslide that, if anybody else but Eisenhower had been running, Sherwood Dixon would have been elected wvernor. But Eisenhower landslide carried against the state ticket in Illinois as well as the national ticket. Sherwood Dixon was a hi@ class m, would have made a fine governor with honor, and he &led the last two or three years. He had a lovely wife; she was srrart, got out and rret the folks. It was a nice family . I was proud that Shemood Dixon was our candidate. He wasn't a glmmus one but he was a little bit on the President Ford level, he comes throw as an honest, decent, good rn to the people, in ny opinion. Q. So the party was able to heal their wounds without much fi@ting afterwards? A. I thou@t we did very well. The worst problem we had, as I t~ldyou, we had this nwney put together for Stevensonvs reelection. Shemood Dixon asked m, would I ~~~18.ghis campaign and I acquiesced in that. Then we had to go to everybody, and we made a rule that everybody that had aven over ten dollars-- we either got them on the telephone or wrote them a letter and said, "Do you want your money to stay with Sherwood Dixon for evernor or to .g with Adlai Stevenson for President?" And that was a lot of work to clear that up and we ppt it all done. Q. Which way did mst people give their mney? A. Well, in Illinois, you know, a governor means an awful lot. To the average palit~~$an~in-!Cllinois, the pvernor mans mm than the presidency, really-in n'y apmon. I would say that ei@t-tenths said, "Let ' s go with Dixon with the mney.' Don Funk, who had been president of Stevenson for Governor [Committee], without any rralisciousness, thowt Hsenhower should be President and he just got out and quit and went for Eisenhower amst his old friend. Now,he didn't talk about it, he didn't make it bad for the Governor. But there were people like that, that thou@fit Eisenhower would be the patest President in the history of the world and went for him, that were for us for governor.
Q. So there were a split in the community over the nomination? A. There was some, but I wasn't in Stevenson's mney raising problem. I got in
Don Forsyth Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Don Fomyth 16 the back door on it when Nixon made his little dog Checkers speech and every- body in the world cam charging in on rre, newspaper-wise, and said, 'What about your money and are you going to release a list?" I said, "No, I'm never going to release a list, never." And they said, 'Why?" 'Well, we've got a lot of Republicans that donate and I'm not going to dry the Demcratic party out for the next four years in Illinois. I'm not eing to do that, I will not expose these good people. And the answer is, if the candidate for governor on the Republican side releases a list, I'll bean to thbk &out it, but that 's about as far as I'm going to say I'll do."
Stevenson called and said, "Don, you my have to release a list ." And I said, "1 shall not release a list, Governor, I will not do this. This mney now be- long$ -to Sherwood Dixon. You've et all yours that you had coming. It's over there for you. I love you but I'm not .ping to dry the Demcratic party out in Illinois. 'I Q. Did the national headq-ers being in Springfield have any effect on the local campaign?
A. I don't think so. I think it helped a little bit, perhaps. These were rather gracious people that cam in here. !They were well liked, I thought, in the comndty. When somoneld have a party locally it was easy to get a speaker, a hip$ class one, too, with this headquarters here.
Q. Who were sm of the most notable people that cam here that you rnet and can rei-rerrber?
A. Well, I guess I thowt Steve Mitchell was a great citizen. He was in here. Wilson Wyatt was in here. There were an awf'ul lot of them that I just don't remrber anymnre but those two stood out, and as you know, Mitchell later ran for governor of Illinois in the primary--Kemer beat him. We were rich that year when Kerner, [Joe] Lo- and Mtchell were a11 muu?ing to be evernor of Illinois in the Demcratic prim. But those pictures that you had this mming reminded m of sore of those folks. They were real high class people, I thowt. I liked them.
Q. So the local politicians were mstly working on the Dixon campaip? A. Their local canpaigns. You've seen presidential campaigns here in Illinois, and I guess I think that--it stinks a little bit, but as far as professional politicians go, state offices and local offices I think man mre to them than the national office. Now this is as far as work is concerned. It's pretty hard if you're looking for patronage to get down to Washington and talk sombody out of a job. And these local politicians it Is pretty easy for them, in Sanppnon County here, to get over to the statehouse here and talk to people about jobs. So I have a feeling there's mre interest on the state level. Now, I don't want to say there's any lack of interest in the federal, but I just don't think it gets the work that the local level gets. Q. Can you remmber any of the visits of General Eisenhower into Springfield or what the effect was? A. Can not, can not. I guess he was in here once, rraybe twice. I don't know.
Q. What was %he turning point in the campaign or was there any?
Don Forsyth Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Don Forsyth
A. I think the tdngpoint was the day that Eisenhower @;ot on the Republican ticket. We were dead on that day. This was IQI belief and I see nothing his- torically to make me change that. Q. It was sort of like what you related of F . D . R. [Franklin D . Roosevelt 1 with the etiateen year old draft, was this the swthing? A. Same thing. It was just @ne . I think Stevenson knew that, and yet he was-- well, he had a lot of Mends, and I told you about som friends that I thought wanted him out of Illinois. But there were som people like the Arveys3 of this world that really would have been proud to have him as President as would all of us, and thou&t mybe he had a chance. And that maybe his ming was the best chance for the Demcratic pmy. I1m not so sure that wasn't true, but I didn't think he had a chance and he didnlt have a chance.
Q. Some people talk about he tried to play the Xncoln imge up too much. Do you think that had mch to do with it?
A. No, I don't think that at all. I think som reporters put him over there in Wncolnl s horn in a rocking chair a couple tirnes , (laughs) where he was supposed to be rreditathg, but Stevenson was a pretty practical mn, I thought. I'm sure everyone has to reditate once in a while as did he. But no, .I amin say that Chis rran had-3: thou@ he would have served well in any office- this country had to offer and mde us all proud. And I guess I dihlt thfnk Eisenhower did too terrible of a job, but I lm sure that the Fntellectual inspiration would have been greater under Stevenson. I'm just sure of that. Q. Do you remember election ni&t and the defeat? A. wife was over there with them at the mansion that night. I was over in Dixon headquarters, we had it up in his office. At the Dixon headquarters at that tkwe had a ticker, as quite often we did in Illinois, up in his office. And we were getting the reports on the governorls race. bQ wife was over at the mansion, she wanted to be over there with Stevenson. And she was ter~iblydepressed that he hahlt won; she didn't believe what I believed, that he couldn't win. And I reumber, throu& her eyes, the night very well. And I remember his speech that was recorded, and she remrrbers it very well indeed. But Stevenson took defeat nicely, as well as he took the mod things in life. He was big man, I thought.
Q. So the popula~Ltyin Illinois wasn't what it was in 1948, or was it just mu?- ning agalnst the irnage?
A. That's in opinion what happened to the state; it was running against the Eisenhower imge. And I have a feeling that he was as--well, Stevenson felt that he would have won for pgvernor if he had run. I have a feeling that there wasla question mkwith Eisenhower at the top of the ticket. Had we had another candi- date against him, that candidate would not have done better in Illinois than Steven- son did, and that would have pulled the whole ticket down including Stevenson. I think [William G. ] Stratton mi@t had beaten Stevenson, if Stevenson were running for pvernor, because of Eisenhower.
. -
.- - '~ahGy, ~at ioi& CorrnrTit teem from Illinois. (Don FOPSyth )
Don Forsyth Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Don Forsyth
Q. What caused a rn like Peter Mack to wfn reelection to Congress when the rest of the ticket went down in defeat?
A. Do you reumber his district? His district was a lot different than it is now--a lot better district. I'm sure that in som of these counties, and I haven't mm it back in years, but I'm sure that some Democrats won in these Demcratic counties, like Pkcoupin. And I guess I'd have to look at the district of l%ck1s . Mack was a popular m, he was well liked, decent. Independent type, but decent and wad. And nobody had to apologize for being for Pete Wck, but he wouldn't have won in our present district had he been running then, nobody would.
Q. What were the final days of the Stevenson adrrdnistmtion like?
A. Ch, they were (laupj~s) a little bit unhappy as far 'as I'm concerned. I went over there--he called nu3 the mrning that he was leaving the msion and said, ''Ernest Ives and I are over here having breakfast, Don, why don't you corn over and have breakfast with us?'' And I said, "Governor, I can 't , I 've had breakfast." He sad, "Com over and have a cup of coffee." So I got in qy car and went over to the rransion. My office was downtown in those days. Bill Blxir was extrerely tense this morning; there were people over there want- ing to talk about the changeover and Bill Blar wasn't too happy to be talking about any changeover with amybody. He cam up to the Governor, and I don't remerher the exact facts on this, but said, "This m wants to do so-and-so, and I'm ~Fngto go tell him to go jwnp in'theilake.!l 1 said, "Oh, I wouldn't do that, Bill, let s do it this way. " The Govemor said, "Na , no, no. Just go ahead and Weit sweetness and list."
But I sat there with them, Emst and the. Governor, and we reminisced about his four years. He said to me, "Don, evaluatq; in your eyes, the last four years. " I said, 'Well, you want it out of q adoP in the middle of the road between your thinking and thinkhg and Emest 's thinking?I' "No, what do you think?" this, +d and I said, 'Well, I think you'll get a law out of I've never said,.', , it to you,- mattLl have enjoyed workirg wi+& you and for you tremendously. In - -', .-d fact, you have been rqy mst expensive ' kiend. l1 And he said, 'What do you mean by that?" I said, "I'm in the inswance bushes and my mmry tells m, without checking, that in four years I have mde seventy-five dollars in co~ssionfrom the state of Illinois and I have even you thousandsLof hours. And the nice thing, Governor, is that I ' ve en.j oyed it. So that s saying that you are a great guy in book."
He said, "Well, it Is too bad .I didnlt'.stay for Governor. " And I said, ''No, no I'm glad you didn't. I'm glaa you didn't, because I get cold chills thatBill Stratton had beat you for govemolr, and this could happen. " "Ch, Don, I don't thbk so. " "Governor, you didn It ask what you thought, you asked what I thought. '' But for lllany of us, those were kind 'bf unhappy days, because rnany of us felt that this man was probably the best hwran being that ever sat on the @vemorls chair.
Q. When was the next tim you saw,Govemor Stevenson after he left office? A. He cam back here for some party, or mybe it das a state convention. [Jake] my, ny wife, and I had lunch dth him over at the old Abe [Abraham] Lincoln Hotel. Now, I don't how how soon that was, and I don't know whether he had been traveling o~-I'rnjust not sm. But he cam here and, oh, people were coming by tbt table just like li&tning'to see him and welcom him back, you know. I think
Don Forsyth Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Don Forsyth 19
it was his first tirne back, I don't emrrber what day it was.
Q. Do you think people accept him more today than they did while he was governor or while he was a presidential candidate?
A. I think he built his reputation in the minds of people by the way he con- ducted himelf after he got out, as well as before. I tho&t in the United Nations that many people thought he was brave and honorable and decent. I thought he continued to gmw until he died. So I would say that his reputation was enhanced after he left, over what it had been before, but I think it was great here in Illinois. An awf'ul lot of people pt down to the United Nations fmrn here and watched him in operation. By that tim television was pulling this into Springfield, Illinois, and I think Stevenson grew until the very day he died. Q. Do you think he would have had a chance as a presidential candidate in 1960, or do you thjnk the two defeats lessened . . . A. I think . . . I think he would have had a chance, but professional politicians don't like to garrhle on a two-tire loser and this would have been the third time. And he was interested. We went up to Libertyville to see him and he wanted to know if I was going to this convention and I wasn't sure whether I was or not. He said, 'What would be your stand if I did this?'' And I said, "I think you've given about all you should give to this party and this country on this level. I think the professionals are not going to be big on this." And I guess I didn't know who was going to be in that seat at the tirne we were talking, but I believed he couldn't win the norrdnation if he tried hard. And I think rraybe he dld try a little big harder. Q. What was your involve~ntin the 1956 canrpaign? A. As relates to the presidency?
Q. Yes. A. Very Little . I did what I could locally, very little.
Q. P/hry Jane Msters tells the story about how you went down to headquarters one ni&t and you were going to show her practical politics in the works. Could you tell about that story?
A. I don't remnber that. Q. So~thingabout they had some extra mney left over and you were going to show her how you could influence the votes or something.
A. Well, what happened is, this was election ni@t--is that what you're talking about ? Q. I think that was a couple days or the ni&t before the election.
A. On election ni&t we had a little bit of mney left over and we had a feeling that--this was on the Shemood Dixon campaign 119521--we had a feeling that in one of the larger counties in northern Illinois, the way things were corning in, we were getting robbed. I asked one of my lieutenants to get in the car and I gave him Don Forsyth Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Don Forsyth 20 sore mney to take and said, "Now, I want those votes broken loose. I want to know where theyf= eing. I don't want any stolen up there, and I think they're @king stolen on us. " Now, how would we know that? Well, here's--I won't use thezounty mm, I wouldn't hurt peoplesYeeling when it was apropos to nothing. But let's assum a county of two hundred and forty precincts and by two o 'clock in the mrning there were only fifteen of them reported. Now, this doesn't sound flat and it looks like sombody is holding it up to see how lrany votes they need. So 1 said to this m of mine, 'Wow, I don't care whether you charter a plane but here's the mney, and if I give you a tip, I want to go get it and get up there. We rmy have to hire som people to gst out on these precincts and start to watch and look over everybody's shoulder. Get them hired, pay whatever you have to.t1 But we didn't go that route, because (laughs) by that time, why, we could see we weren't going to win no matter what that comty did. But it was a big county. Yes, I was willing to do--well, this was theory, jwt &t out and hire the people to watch no rmter what it cost. Q. What was your involve~ntin the party after 1956? A. I got angry around he~ein Sangamn County. I didnft think we were working hard enom. And in 1958, I, in w terribly Republican precinct, decided to have a write-in candidate for precinct committeem. It was miserable out there! So I went around to see the Democratic families and asked if they'd support m. On a write-in,I beat the fellow who would have been in there because he was not a hard worker-that 's why I was irritated about it-about four to one or five to one. I no sooner got elected precinct cormnitteemm than so~bodysaid we o@t to have Forsyth for comty chairrran. A deleetion called on me and I went crazy and said, "Oh sure, let Is try it." And I got elected over the incdent, who'd been in fbr many years. It was the worst two years I ever spent in life in that Itmin the insurance business and every morning I'd open w office door and--1 man I'd walk into rry office, the girls got there before I did--and the room would be full of people. And if there was an insurance prospect there, I did not know. These were patronage people and everyone else. Well, by in 1958 we changed som rules around here; we surrounded dead precinct cormrdtteernen, the ones who ought to be buried and were still walking, and we elected a whole bunch of Demcrats for the flmt time in years in here. By getting on television. James Craven, who is now a probate judgs, and I would get on extemporaneously for a half an hour on television and talk about the mrtsdeeds of the Republican office holders. Weld say, "If you don't think we 're telling the truth, sue us ; here Is what they've done. " And we just went for two mnths , just bang, bang, bang. But needling people who had not been working. And with V. Y. Dallmm--you ask about hh-he was stalwart, he just played up our theories big in editorials and everything else. And when we g~tthrow it was the best year the Demcrats had had, oh, almst forever. So after two years--it cost m about fif'teen thousand dollars a year to be county chaim--I said, "No mre." So Tom Owens, who was a real hi& class m, we elected him comty chairman. He took it over and did well for the party.
And then another year I decided I wanted to be state central codtteenm. The old state central codtteerran had passed away and I hew the State Central Corrrrnltttee job--or I didn't think it took as much tirne as county chaim. So I ran for State
Don Forsyth Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Don Forsyth
Central Codttee and--no, I was appointed and got that and carried on with that until I had a heart attack in 1964. I had to resiw because I couldn't rrake the district anymre, couldn't run it. And if I believe that people ou@t to work when they have a political job, I certainly o@t to live up to w own rules; so when I got sick, I just quit that and they appointed another one. So, yes, I've always had an interest in politics. son is a trustee of the University of Illinois, four years a& he was elected statewide. I think every- body ought to have an interest in politics. I've just been fortmate that rqy business and wife and family have been considerate enom to re to say go ahead and do what you want to in life, and I've enjoyed being mund those En that man so much to this country and to this state. Q. Do you think the State Central Codttee is pictured by the press badly? You how, the smke-filled room and the old party hacks?
A. I think these are all--well, they have to be ,god enow mn to get elected in their district, that's rimer one. They get elected--I got appointed because sombody retired, but they have to be elected. I think they're intensely dem- cratic as a gnerality. There's a fellow now and I'm sure he's still state central corrwdtteerran, a legislator by the mm of Dan Pierce. He's an intense good-government rran one I respect him and like him. Now, he votes it the way he sees for good gvemnt, but he Is a Demcrat . I think I 'm an intense Dernoc~at, too, but I would not be for. som cnmby Demcrat that I lmew was a crurrb. I just wouldn't be for ,hh. Now, in power politics somtims, in choosing candidates, I have seen s- rather poor people @;et put on the state ticket. I guess I wouldn't vote for one if I hew it, and I at one time thhk I hew every, well, let's say unusual, crooked-type politician in both pmies in Illinois. I don't mymre but I think I did at one tim, people that would sell out. Yet, I feel in politics that the people in politics are about the sam as they are any place else in busi- ness or agricultwe or attorneys. There's some good, ones and bad ones, and I don't believe 'we have any mnopoly in politics or1 bad people. I just daMft belleve that. -
Q. Without divulging any in-guarded sec~ts,is there any special process that the State Central Conrmlttee goes through when they chose a candidate? A. I think . . . I think there is a special process in that I believe--well, so~thsone knows on the State Central Cormdttee that sonmne is going to be a cinch, but quite often they invite folks to appear, anybody that wants to run. And sorretims--I think this is a little unusual, but sometims they @;et so~body so inspiring that they say, "Oh, oh, rraybe this is a fellow that maybe we o&t to look at wre caref'ully." Now, I've seen it where it didn't work that year but it worked two years or four years later for this m.
To give you an e-le of what I'm saying, Alan Dixon, who is now the state treasurer, one tim as a Young hmcrat was invited to speak at the state fair. He was young and f'ull of fire and he talked about fifteen or twenty minutes when he ought to have talked three. I thouat he was, at that the, just @Fng to be one of the great ones and it slowed hlm down for about ten years, this speech he made at the state falr. Now he Is back on track and going a-mile-a-mute and respected. But I've seen people do good things for themselves and bad thine for therrselves. And DfLxon just made a mistake as a young boy to talk that long before all the leaders where wbe they only had forty rdnutes at the fair, and here Is Stevenson, let 's say, or Douglas or a lot of people that were mre entitled to tinu;. So, I think that this cormittee is a good thing, gpod place to look over folks, I really do.
Don Forsyth Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Don Forsyth 22
Q. Do you think the Demcrats have mined mre politically in the state of Illfnois since 1948 with the election of En like Douglas and Stevenson? A. Because of them or . . . Q. Because of them and the advancemnts of other good men in the party. A. I think so. I think that they've mined tre~ndously. And I've watched these mvemnts of Daleyls up it--cook-county . The average person doesn't realize that he has a lot of young En cmkg along up there--brilliant young guys. They think theylre generally--well, Downstaters quite often think they're just a bunch of party hacks. But I look at sore of those young. people and theytpe geniuses, and they're going to &--well, they're going to be in politics for another twenty-five or thifiy yems and they're ming to make us proud. So an organization, as you know, is a door4mockingthing and get out and do favors, "1 helped your grandm, now you vote for Uncle Joe ,"and so forth. But I think this party's improved a lot. Now, you ~lemrherthat Stevenson appointed Dick Daley down here as his director [of revenue 1 and Daley has always done well, in opinion. I 'm glad we have that orppization in Chicago or I donlt believe our chznces would be very great because, historically, Downstate has tended to be Republican, Downstate Illinois.
Q. What advice would you give to a young precinct codtteemn working his precinct?
A. I Id give him the advice that he shouldn 't run if he isntt going to work. I would give him the advice that he has an absolute mml obligation when he holds himself out to the voters to get back and talk to them before election and tell them what he thinks, and argue with them if they don't agree. And if he has a ticket,hets obligated to try to elect it. I shall never forget that we used to out in--you take the precinct I was in. At one time there were ei&t hundred voters and there were forty-two Demcrats , all the rest were Republican. This was out on the southwest side of Springfield. We decided to gcAo work out there. And we would go into every single home, Republican or knmcrat. I had two or three helpers. Paid nobody out there because it would be an insult. These folks have mney; Itmthe only poor ran, probably, that lives in Woodside 19. (lams) But weld go in and knock on doors, talk to people, and the vote changed to where we were gtting one hundred forty or fifty votes out there every single election. Because we exposed folks, saying, I'I-Iere1s what we think." And it works, it absolutely works. Now, to throw a little piece of paper or a little brochure on the door doesn't do anything in book, but an awful lot of comrrdfteemn in this state do just about that much and no mre . And I think this is sinful. I think they ought to give up and let sombody run that will work. &. In closing, if you were an historian, how would you tell the story of Adlai Stevenson?
A. I would say, if I were a historian--and I 'we got to the age now (laughs ) where I've lived enom years interested in this political ---that he probably did a great deal for a peat lllany people thro@out this world and in this country in particular. I have fomd folks when Itm in Europe say, "Tell rm about Adlal Stevenson . . .11 ENDDon ForsythOF Tm Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS