Wednesday Volume 526 30 March 2011 No. 142

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 30 March 2011

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outstanding success. It is extremely important, and we House of Commons will be following through on many of the aspects Oxfam has specifically mentioned when we have the Global Wednesday 30 March 2011 Alliance for Vaccines and Immunisation replenishment conference in London on 13 June. The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock South Sudan

PRAYERS 2. John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): What support his Department plans to give to development of the [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] infrastructure of South Sudan in 2011-12. [49662]

The Secretary of State for International Development (Mr Andrew Mitchell): Our main infrastructure investments Oral Answers to Questions in 2011-12 in southern Sudan are expected to be in roads in rural areas, primary and secondary schools, teacher training centres, health care centres and other facilities to reduce insecurity and increase access to INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT basic services.

The Secretary of State was asked— John Mann: Here we have a brand new country about to form—it will do so on 9 July—that wants to join the UN Women (Funding) Commonwealth. Its people speak English, and it has great links with the United Kingdom. Should we not 1. Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): What criteria he plans shift part of our budget in order to allow this new to use to assess the strategic plan for UN Women when country to get developing fast? determining the funding to be allocated to it. [49661] Mr Mitchell: The hon. Gentleman makes a good The Secretary of State for International Development point. That is why we have focused very specifically on (Mr Andrew Mitchell): We recently reviewed the value our support for the referendum. We are working very for money of British taxpayers’ funding to all multilateral closely with President Mbeki on the issues of the border. agencies through the multilateral aid review. We will use We have had many discussions about the very points the the same broad criteria to assess UN Women’s strategic hon. Gentleman mentions, most recently when I saw plan. Salva Kiir on my visit just before Christmas, and we will be strongly supporting the new state in a whole series of Lisa Nandy: Currently, new funding pledges to UN different ways once it is set up. Women for 2011 amount to just $55 million, less than 10% of the target set by member states in 2010. In order Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): What engagement for this important initiative to succeed—and so that the does the Secretary of State have with the African UK can say it played its part in its success—will the Development Bank and the World Bank on infrastructure Minister heed the calls of Voluntary Service Overseas development for southern Sudan—which, as he says, is and others to provide adequate funding urgently? desperately needed—given that the UK is a major contributor to both those organisations? What will Mr Mitchell: The hon. Lady is absolutely right to flag their commitment be, and how will the Department for up the importance of this new agency and the fact that International Development co-ordinate with them? it has strong cross-party support. The United Kingdom played a key role in its establishment. We have provided Mr Mitchell: The Chairman of the departmental transitional funding, and when we see the strategic plan Select Committee is absolutely right to identify the in June, we will then fund it. I have no doubt at all that, crucial role that will be played by both the World Bank in consultation with other funding bodies, we will be and the ADB. I recently had discussions on this very able to play a very full part. subject with Donald Kaberuka, the head of the ADB, in Addis Ababa at the African Union summit, and we Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): UN Women’s will ensure that strong priority is given to infrastructure strategic plan is guided in part by millennium development development. After all, this is a country with less than goals 4 and 5. The Secretary of State has kindly just 28 km of tarmac roads. received from me Bradford-on-Avon Oxfam’s Mothers Matter card for mother’s day. Will the Secretary of Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ State take this opportunity to restate to the House his Co-op): Is the Secretary of State aware that there has Government’s commitment to working internationally recently been a big increase in land purchase by foreign to achieve MDGs 4 and 5 on maternal and child health? investors in South Sudan? Although foreign investment can, of course, be very beneficial in the right circumstances, Mr Mitchell: Yes, my hon. Friend is absolutely right. land speculation threatens food supplies and price stability At the first international summit the Prime Minister not just in South Sudan but globally. What will the attended after taking office following the election of the Secretary of State do to ensure that people in countries coalition Government, he flagged up the importance of such as South Sudan do not become victims of land MDGs 4 and 5 very directly. Oxfam’s campaign is an grabs by speculators? 325 Oral Answers30 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 326

Mr Mitchell: The hon. Gentleman rightly recognises Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): The UK will soon be one of the challenges for South Sudan. There is an spending 0.7% of GDP on international development. array of challenges, on all of which Britain and the Following the recent review all of DFID’s money is international community will seek to assist Salva Kiir committed, so if people want more money spent somewhere and his new Government. I should make it clear to the in the international development framework, it behoves hon. Gentleman that that country’s oil revenue gives it them to explain where they want that money taken from the opportunity between now and 2015 to make more in the DFID budget. We cannot have continuous requests progress on all these millennium development goals for more and more spending unless people are prepared than any other country on earth. Britain will be playing to acknowledge where they want spending reduced. its full part in trying to bring that about. Mr O’Brien: My hon. Friend makes an important Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): At a point, particularly in relation to bilateral programmes. meeting yesterday, a former Foreign Secretary of Sudan Of course, opportunities are provided through challenge said that when the new Government take over in July funds, not least the global poverty action fund, and the desperate need will be for government advice and other funds that are available for those with an interest training, as well as infrastructure. What plans does my to continue to apply to. That will allow them, not least, right hon. Friend and his Department have to provide to influence the way in which the multilaterals deploy that advice and training? their resources to which we contribute.

Mr Mitchell: My hon. Friend is absolutely right: UK Anti-corruption Champion supporting democratic and accountable government will be at the heart of what we are trying to do in South 4. Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) Sudan. When I was in Juba to open the new British (Lab): What recent discussions he has had with the Government office there before Christmas, I was able to Secretary of State for Justice on the implications for see some direct technical assistance that Britain is giving. development of his role as the UK’s international As he says, we will need more of that. anti-corruption champion. [49664]

Lesotho The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for International Development (Mr Stephen O’Brien): My 3. Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): right hon. Friends have had many discussions, including What estimate he has made of the likely change in the in specific meetings on this important role—yet another level of official development assistance to Lesotho meeting will be held on it shortly. We agree about the following the closure of his Department’s bilateral aid importance of a cross-government champion. To be programme in that country. [49663] credible when working with our developing country partners in tackling corruption, it is vital that we have The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for strong systems in place in the UK. International Development (Mr Stephen O’Brien): The DFID bilateral programme in Lesotho has delivered Catherine McKinnell: I thank the Minister for that impressive results in, for example, reducing HIV prevalence answer and welcome the news that the coalition is in Lesotho’s important garment factories from 37% to finally publishing guidance on the Bribery Act 2010, 27% in just three years. Notwithstanding the planned because delays to its publication have been very damaging closure of our bilateral aid programme, we will continue to our reputation abroad. Given the devastating effects to provide some £10 million in aid each year to Lesotho that corruption has on developing economies, can he through multilateral channels. Our assessments indicate confirm that the guidance has not been watered down that official development assistance to Lesotho is likely to create loopholes for subsidiaries and joint ventures, to grow substantially in the years ahead. and so the Act can be implemented, in the words of the Foreign Secretary, “rigorously, effectively and fairly”? Roberta Blackman-Woods: Churches in my constituency have a link with Lesotho that goes back many years. I Mr O’Brien: I am delighted to stand here as the recently met a delegation from Lesotho in Durham who guidance is being published, something that has happened told me of their grave concerns about the Government’s pretty rapidly under this Government after we waited decision to stop bilateral aid. Would the Minister be for 13 years for something similar from the previous willing to meet a delegation from Durham to discuss Government. Far from being diluted, the guidance has how Lesotho can continue to be supported by the taken all the representations into serious consideration international community? and it is now something on which we can work. We very much look forward to seeing it in place as the bedrock Mr O’Brien: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her on which we can build. question, because I know that the Durham-Lesotho link has been an important, effective and long-standing Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): connection of support between the two Anglican dioceses. Openness and transparency are vital in the fight against The bilateral programme is very small, and many corruption and in tackling exploitation of developing multilateral channels will remain available. We believe countries by global companies. It is a travesty that that they will grow, and that is where the future of where there is massive wealth, such as in oil or minerals, Lesotho’s better development will be derived. I would local people do not benefit from it. The Government be more than happy to meet a delegation of her constituents have said that they will support new European Union to explore how this approach can be additive, rather regulation to make companies disclose exactly how than negative, which is what she is worried about. much they pay to the developing country’s Government 327 Oral Answers30 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 328 for the right to extract natural resources, but what is Minister say how the UK will provide the leadership to needed is action. Will the Government take the lead on ensure that we have the same system as that in the driving through the EU transparency regulation, and United States? will he ensure that companies listed on the London stock exchange report the payments they make? Mr Duncan: The Chancellor of the Exchequer has already been driving this issue very hard and DFID Mr O’Brien: I am grateful to the right hon. and fully supports a process that is designed to reach agreement learned Lady for raising this issue. As she knows, it is at EU level. We want such legislation to require, for being addressed through the extractive industries example, extractive industries to disclose all their payments transparency initiative on which I attended a meeting in to the host Government. That is a very important step Paris recently and to which there is now increasing and the impact of such measures is greatest when commitment. In addition, my right hon. Friend the applied to the widest range of countries. Chancellor said on 20 February that we would work with our EU partners to look precisely at what we can Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): We do to examine the very obvious example that is coming all agree that tackling corruption is vital to ensuring from Dodd-Frank in America, but making sure that is that development delivers for the people who need it done at an EU level. most. As the Government are finally publishing the guidelines on the Bribery Act, may I press the Minister Corruption again to assure us that the guidelines will not water down that important legislation? 5. Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): What recent representations he has received on the effects of Mr Duncan: On the contrary, the guidelines are very corruption on the economies of developing countries. strict as the hon. Lady will see when she reads the [49665] written ministerial statement that is being published today. 6. Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): What recent representations he has received on the effects of World Bank Spring Meetings corruption on the economies of developing countries. [49666] 7. Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): The Minister of State, Department for International What objectives he has set for the outcomes for his Development (Mr Alan Duncan): My ministerial colleagues Department’s policies of the World Bank spring meetings. and I have frequent meetings with non-governmental [49667] organisations and others who stress the importance of tackling corruption. Corruption threatens economic The Minister of State, Department for International growth in developing countries, wastes resources and Development (Mr Alan Duncan): My right hon. Friend deters investment. The coalition Government will not the Secretary of State will personally attend the spring tolerate corruption and will do their utmost in all their meetings. Our objective is, on the back of our support development programmes to eliminate it. for the recent funding round for the World Bank’s operations in poor countries, to take forward the outcome Helen Jones: I am grateful to the Minister for that of our multilateral aid review and to ensure that the reply. We welcome the publication of guidelines on the World Bank delivers more effectively in fragile and Bribery Act, for which organisations such as the Catholic conflict-affected countries. Fund for Overseas Development have campaigned for some time, but will he tell the House how he expects the Mr Burrowes: I thank the Minister for that reply. The Act to be properly implemented given that the Serious president of the World Bank has said: Fraud Office is facing 50% cuts and many of its members have resigned, including the head of anti-corruption? “If you think about almost any poverty and development issue, you will find water at the center of it.” What discussions has the Minister had with his colleagues in the Ministry of Justice about this? Last week, I, together with the Secretary of State and constituents, joined Tearfund and Water Aid’s Westminster Mr Duncan: I am sure that the hon. Lady appreciates walk for water to highlight the lack of access of hundreds that that is primarily a matter for the Treasury rather of millions of people to clean water and basic sanitation. than the Department for International Development. Will the Minister stand on the shoulders of those who We believe that corruption is bad for development, bad have walked for this great cause? for poor people and bad for business, and today’s written ministerial statement lays out concrete guidance Mr Duncan: It is often a great advantage for me to for the implementation of the Bribery Act to which we stand on someone’s shoulders! Much of the international look forward. effort on water and sanitation is indeed led by the World Bank which, over the past 10 years, has provided 113 million Greg Mulholland: I, too, welcome the publication of people with access to an improved water source, and the guidelines on the Bribery Act and wish to pay 5.8 million with improved sanitation facilities. With our tribute to the leadership and personal commitment of support and that of others, the World Bank will over the Secretary of State on this issue. However, I want to the next three years provide up to 44 million people raise the issue of country-by-country reporting. The with improved access to water sources. As part of our Government have said they are committed to that but partnership, we will press it to be even more effective in that they will seek to do it through the EU. Can the what it does. 329 Oral Answers30 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 330

Mr Speaker: As the Minister will understand, I know Mr O’Brien: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. This his feelings very well. is an opportunity for many small UK-based organisations that often struggle to access DFID funding. The best India thing to do is to go to the DFID website, but I would also would urge her and Members across the House to 8. Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): What plans he publicise through their constituency communications has for future levels of development aid to India. the fact that this is a real opportunity for their local [49668] charities to make a sensible application of that sort. The Secretary of State for International Development (Mr Andrew Mitchell): I have frozen the India programme Mr Speaker: Order. There are far too many noisy at current levels until 2015. Working closely with the private conversations in the Chamber. I remind colleagues Government of India, we will target our support on that we are about to discuss humanitarian aid to the three of the poorest states. Our programme will change people of Libya. to reflect the importance of the role of the private sector. Libya (Humanitarian Aid)

Caroline Dinenage: Despite the undoubted poverty in India, the Indian Government have nuclear weapons, a 10. Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): What humanitarian space programme and their own programme for foreign aid his Department is providing to the people of Libya. aid. What can we do to encourage the Indian Government [49670] to spend more money on the things that they should spend money on, rather than on the things that they The Secretary of State for International Development want? (Mr Andrew Mitchell): We have provided funding for the International Committee of the Red Cross, which Mr Mitchell: My hon. Friend is right to ask whether has sent in three medical teams, medical supplies to India has reached the point where we should end our treat 3,000 people affected by fighting, and essential development programme. Our judgment is that we are relief items for up to 100,000 of the most vulnerable. not there yet. As she said, India has more poor people than the whole of sub-Saharan Africa. It also has the Ann Clwyd: As the Minister knows, a team from biggest Government-led pro-poor, anti-poverty programme Amnesty International has been in Libya for the past anywhere in the world, and through our programme, we month, and it has found evidence of hundreds of missing are strongly encouraging more of the same. and detained people. Given Gaddafi’s track record of extreme cruelty and torture, will he try to ensure that, at Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): Will the Secretary the very least, the ICRC has access to those detained of State outline what representations he has received people, so that news can be given to their families and from the Indian Government about his plans to spend they can have some contact with them? 50% of DFID money on the private sector? Is that an aspiration only for India, or is it for other developing countries too? Mr Mitchell: The right hon. Lady, who rightly always champions these issues, is entirely correct, which is why Mr Mitchell: As the hon. Gentleman will know, the we and the United Nations have called strongly for nature of development is to try to move countries off unfettered access for humanitarian agencies. We continue welfare development on to pro-poor, private sector to call for that access to be given throughout Libya. investment, as that is something that helps poor people to lift themselves out of poverty. The decisions on the Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): The potential Indian programme were made in close consultation humanitarian crisis in Libya is one of those that should with the Indian Government, and take account of our be influenced by the important report by Lord Ashdown priorities and theirs as well. on our response to humanitarian crises. I know that the Secretary of State welcomed the publication of that Global Action Poverty Fund review. Can he give us some idea of the time scale for a Government response to this important piece of work? 9. Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): How many organisations have (a) applied for and (b) been granted Mr Mitchell: My hon. Friend is right. Lord Ashdown’s funds from his Department’s global action poverty review of the way Britain conducts its humanitarian fund. [49669] and emergency relief is outstanding. The Government The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for will now consult and take six weeks to consider all the International Development (Mr Stephen O’Brien): In the implications of that, and then report back to the House. first round, 366 eligible applications for funding were received for the impact and innovation windows of the Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): Many sub-Saharan global poverty action fund. Announcements on the first Africans work as migrant workers in Libya and do not successful projects will be made next month. have the resources or the opportunity to be repatriated. One of my constituents, who works with the Somali Fiona Bruce: I thank the Minister for his reply. Many community in Belfast, has contacted me as members of small charities make a tremendous difference in developing that community are very concerned about their relatives. countries, often with limited funding. What can be done What are the international community and our Government to publicise the excellent opportunities for them to doing to try to stem that aspect of the humanitarian apply to the global poverty action fund? crisis? 331 Oral Answers30 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 332

Mr Mitchell: The hon. Lady is right to identify the development programmes in Yemen.DFID is continuing migrant communities leaving Libya, especially through to support the social fund for development which helps Tunisia, as particularly vulnerable. That is why Britain, low-income groups to secure basic services such as along with others, has flown tens of thousands of them health, education and water. We are also supporting home to their countries and families. Britain has been humanitarian contingency plans. We do not provide involved in repatriating more than 12,500. any money directly to the Government of Yemen.

Humanitarian Assistance (Libyan Borders) Keith Vaz: I thank the Minister for his answer. As he knows, a state of emergency was declared in Yemen last 11. David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): week. As it remains one of the poorest countries on What recent assessment he has made of the earth, it is essential that the excellent work that has been humanitarian situation on Libya’s borders with Tunisia undertaken by the Government through the development and Egypt. [49671] programme continues. Can the Minister ensure that, subject to the security of people there, this work will 13. Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con): What recent continue? assessment he has made of the humanitarian situation Mr Duncan: We share the right hon. Gentleman’s on Libya’s borders with Tunisia and Egypt. [49673] objectives in trying to deliver assistance wherever we possibly can, which we are continuing to do through the The Secretary of State for International Development social fund for development, which is not Government-run. (Mr Andrew Mitchell): More than 350,000 people have We have, however, had to withdraw our DFID staff crossed the Libyan borders since the crisis began. Early from Sana’a given the security situation, but we remain action by Britain and others has ensured that a logistical committed to doing everything we possibly can to help crisis has not, so far at least, developed into a humanitarian the people of Yemen once the security position and the emergency. political position become clearer and appropriate. David Morris: I thank my right hon. Friend for the Tax Avoidance (UK Companies) work that he has done so far on the issue. Obviously, it is not for me to remind him that the eyes of the world 14. Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): are on that region, and that we must get it right for the What recent representations he has received on the people there. effect on the economies of developing countries of the tax avoidance practices of UK companies. [49674] Mr Mitchell: My hon. Friend is entirely correct. Britain was one of the first countries to provide blankets The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for and tents for those who were caught out in the open on International Development (Mr Stephen O’Brien): Ministers the borders. Following that, as I said in answer to the discuss taxation and development with various parties, previous question, we were at the forefront of the with the Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury most international community in providing flights to repatriate recently meeting Christian Aid on 8 March. Discussions migrant workers from both borders. on protecting developing countries’ tax bases also take place in the OECD tax and development task force and the G20 development working group. Joseph Johnson: One of the biggest challenges facing Egypt’s transition to democracy is the fragile state of its Katy Clark: The Minister will be aware that developing economy, with capital rapidly leaving the country. Can countries lose more through the tax avoidance of the Secretary of State please say what he will do to stop multinationals than they receive in aid each year. The the additional pressure on the Egyptian economy from Business Secretary has in the past supported country- the influx of refugees from Libya, which is draining it of by-country reporting of both profits and tax paid. Is remittances and pushing up already high unemployment? that something the Minister would consider? Mr Mitchell: My hon. Friend is right to identify a Mr O’Brien: I can certainly confirm that we expect all most important issue. I have made clear Britain’s significant companies and individuals to pay the tax they owe in contribution to ensuring that migrants are flown home. the countries where it falls due. There is a lot of work On the other points that he mentioned, some of that is a now going on, particularly with the G20 development matter for the Paris Club of creditors, the other international action plan and the global forum on tax transparency, financial institutions and the significant funding available precisely to address the issues that the hon. Lady rightly from the European Union through the neighbourhood highlights, and which we must all seek to find the most funds. effective ways of tackling.

Yemen PRIME MINISTER 12. Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): What discussions he has had with his EU and UN counterparts on the development implications of the state of emergency in The Prime Minister was asked— Yemen. [49672] Engagements The Minister of State, Department for International Development (Mr Alan Duncan): We are in close contact Q1. [49646] Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): If with EU and UN counterparts. Recent instability is he will list his official engagements for Wednesday limiting the ability of DFID and other donors to run 30 March. 333 Oral Answers30 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 334

The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): I am sure measures to protect civilians and civilian populated that the whole House will wish to join me in paying areas, and our view is that that would not necessarily tribute to Major Matthew Collins and Lance Sergeant rule out the provision of assistance to those protecting Mark Burgan from 1st Battalion the Irish Guards. They civilians in certain circumstances. As I have told the died in Afghanistan last Wednesday after their vehicle House before, we do not rule it out, but we have not was caught in a blast from an improvised explosive taken the decision to do so. device. They were both hugely respected, passionate and dedicated soldiers, and they will be greatly missed. Edward Miliband: I thank the Prime Minister for that Our thoughts and deepest condolences should be with reply and am sure that the matter will be explored their families, friends and colleagues. further in the Foreign Secretary’s statement at 12.30 pm. This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues I also thank him, and indeed all Members, for their and others, and further to my duties in this House I kind wishes on my forthcoming wedding, which I am shall have further such meetings later today. very much looking forward to. I might have to come to him in the next couple of months for advice, because I Jackie Doyle-Price: I pay tribute to our fallen heroes, know that he knows how to organise memorable stag and I am sure that I speak for many in the House when I nights. say that we have to remember the debts we owe our Let me turn to a different issue: tuition fees. The brave armed forces, particularly at this time. Prime Minister said that universities will charge £9,000 Is the Prime Minister aware that 14 Opposition Members in tuition fees only in exceptional circumstances. How signed an early-day motion congratulating UK Uncut, many of the 23 universities that have announced their despite that organisation’s refusal to condemn Saturday’s plans are planning to charge £9,000? violence? Will he join me in urging those Members to withdraw their names? The Prime Minister: I am sure that there will be a free The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for her exchange of advice. When I was Leader of the Opposition, question. First of all, we should be absolutely clear that I would have done anything for a honeymoon, and the the scenes in central London of property, shops, banks right hon. Gentleman probably feels the same way. and livelihoods being destroyed were completely and However, we wish him well. utterly unacceptable. The police should have our full On tuition fees, the point about the £9,000 is well support for the way they policed the march and the made. Universities can charge £9,000 only if they go action they took. I think that it is important for people through a number of steps to prove that they really are to understand that UK Uncut refused to condemn this improving access to universities. I do not have the violence and Opposition Members should remove their figures available, but I am very happy to give them to names from the early-day motion. him when I do.

Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): I join the Edward Miliband: This is an important point, because Prime Minister in paying tribute to Major Matthew when the Prime Minister was selling his tuition fees Collins and Lance Sergeant Mark Burgan, who died in policy he reassured people that there would be a basic Afghanistan. They showed enormous bravery and courage, threshold of £6,000, but that “in exceptional circumstances” and all our thoughts are with their family and friends. some universities would be allowed to charge £9,000. Of May I start by asking the Prime Minister about the the 23 universities that have announced their fees, 18—more ongoing situation in Libya? In particular, will he tell the than 80%—plan to charge £9,000. It is not the exception; House what his policy is on arming the rebels? it is the rule. I am afraid—not for the first time—that this policy has not been implemented competently. The The Prime Minister: I thank the right hon. Gentleman next problem he faces with this policy is that it will cost for his question. Before starting, perhaps on behalf of the Treasury more money to fund the loans. Will he everyone in the House, I congratulate him and Justine guarantee that that money will not come from university on the happy news of their forthcoming wedding and, budgets or through a reduction in student numbers? along with everyone, wish them a long and happy life together. The Prime Minister: It is worth reminding the House I can report that the situation on the ground is that university tuition fees were first introduced by the extremely fluid. There is no doubt in anyone’s mind that Labour party. There are two important points about the ceasefire is still being breached, and it is absolutely this threshold. First, each university will have to spend right that we keep up our pressure under UN Security £900 per place on access requirements. Secondly, the Council resolution 1973. I can confirm to the House Office for Fair Access will decide whether universities that the coalition took action yesterday against regime can go to that £9,000 threshold. Very tough rules have forces harassing civilian vessels trying to get into Misrata. been published and placed in the House for people to Yesterday and overnight the RAF flew 24 sorties, and see. On the additional money that will go into higher Tornado aircraft destroyed artillery and an armoured education, the right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: fighting vehicle near Sirte. because of the system we are introducing, we will be The right hon. Gentleman asks about arming the spending more overall on universities. However, the key rebels. I have said before in this House that we must do thing is that because of the reductions in spending we everything to comply with both Security Council resolutions. are having to make elsewhere, this is the only way to As I told the House, the legal position is clear—the guarantee that we have well-funded universities, well-stocked arms embargo applies to the whole territory of Libya—but libraries, well-paid lecturers and good universities to at the same time UNSCR 1973 allows all necessary take on the world. 335 Oral Answers30 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 336

Edward Miliband: I asked a very simple question: Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): From his where will the money come from, given that the Government visits to Cornwall, the Prime Minister will appreciate have miscalculated the level of tuition fees? Universities the high regard for the coastguard service there and up and down the country are worried that the Prime around the UK. I am reassured that the Under-Secretary Minister does not think that an 80% cut in the teaching of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for budget is enough and that he will come back for more. Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), has said that the Policing is another area of public services that I do current modernisation proposals are not a done deal. not think the Government are getting quite right. The Does the Prime Minister agree that it is very important police Minister was asked eight times on the radio this to get the plans right? morning whether the number of front-line police officers would fall. May I ask the Prime Minister whether there The Prime Minister: I absolutely agree with my hon. will be fewer front-line police officers in the years ahead? Friend. She is a Cornish MP, and I am sure that she and the whole of the House would want me to say how The Prime Minister: According to Home Office statistics, much we feel for our colleague, my hon. Friend the if all forces achieve the current best average for visibility Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray), and availability, it would increase the number of officers who lost her husband in a tragic fishing accident. That available by 8,000. demonstrates the extraordinary risks that people in coastal communities take, and our hearts should go out Edward Miliband: I do not think that people will to her and her family. understand what that answer was supposed to mean. We want to make changes only if they improve the The Prime Minister should listen to the chief inspector coastguard support that people in fishing communities of Lancashire police: and elsewhere get. That is what the reform is about: “We cannot leave the front line untouched”. trying to ensure that the real impetus is on the front line. That is because of the scale of the cuts. Two thousand If that is not the case, we will obviously have to reconsider police officers are being forced out under the A19 rules. the reforms, and that is why they are being reviewed. Sergeant Dave Hewitt: What I would say to everyone who cares about this issue “’I will be walking away from the force, unfortunately not is: work with us to make sure we get the maximum through choice… As far as I’m concerned I’m still young and I amount in those lifeboats and other ways of helping our wanted to continue being a neighbourhood sergeant.” fishing and other communities. That sounds like a front-line police officer to me. May I Q2. [49647] Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): ask the Prime Minister the same question? Does he Does the Prime Minister acknowledge the serious concerns expect there to be fewer front-line police officers in the that have been raised about the adverse implications years ahead? Yes or no? and complications for cancer patients under the proposals The Prime Minister: There is no reason for there to be in the Welfare Reform Bill of replacing disability living fewer front-line officers. Both parties agree that the allowance with personal independence payments? Will police budget has to be cut. I heard the shadow Chancellor he therefore investigate with Ministers the case for on the Marr programme say that creating a straightforward cancer care and support allowance, which would be available to those who have “we would have made cuts to policing”. been diagnosed with cancer and are either undergoing The Labour party would have cut policing, and we have or awaiting treatment? to do so, so the question is: how do we make those cuts? We say that we have to freeze police pay for two years, The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady asks an important reform police allowances and cut their paperwork. They question. We will look carefully, as the Government Labour party opposes all those things, so it would have medical adviser is, at DLA and its interaction with to make deeper cuts in police numbers. That is the case. people with cancer. However, I think that everyone, in all parts of the House, should recognise that DLA does Edward Miliband: It is very simple: we proposed 12% need reform. The fact is that there are 130,000 people cuts in the policing budget; the Prime Minister is proposing on DLA who have not had a claim revised at all since 20% cuts. Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary the benefit was introduced in 1992. There are 750,000 said that if we go beyond 12%, that is likely to lead to people who have had the same claim for 10 years and no cuts in front-line officers, which is exactly what is happening contact from the Department. There are 21,000 people up and down this country. The truth is that he used to of working age getting DLA because they are on drink claim that the Conservatives were the party of law and or drugs, so reform really is necessary, but making sure order, but now he is cutting the number of police that we assess people with cancer properly is definitely officers up and down the country. It is the wrong choice part of that reform. for the police, the wrong choice for communities and the wrong choice for the country as well. Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): May I congratulate the Prime Minister on what appears to The Prime Minister: Not for the first time, the right have been a successful London conference on Libya? hon. Gentleman is completely wrong. The difference What measures are being taken to ensure that we can between a 12% reduction and what we are proposing is expand the coalition of countries taking part in action the freeze in police pay and the reform of police allowances, to include regional players such as Qatar and others, which he refuses to support. Has anyone seen a more which is vital if we are to maintain regional support? ridiculous spectacle than the right hon. Gentleman marching against the cuts that his Government caused? The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for his I know Martin Luther King said he had a dream—I question: it was a successful conference yesterday, and think it is time the right hon. Gentleman woke up. my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary will make 337 Oral Answers30 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 338 a statement about it later. There were more than path, is to show the success of our democratic institutions, 40 delegations, widespread representation from the Islamic which he, his colleagues and all parties in Northern world and a common message from everyone at the Ireland are doing. conference about broadening and deepening the alliance, and enforcing UN Security Council resolution 1973. Q5. [49650] Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): There was also new support, with equipment, including Yesterday, councillors on the Yorkshire and the Humber from the Swedes, who are making eight aircraft available. joint health overview and scrutiny committee were told We are on track, and there is very strong support for by senior doctors that, if Leeds loses its children’s heart what is being done, but we need to keep up the support, surgery unit, ambulance transfers will be unsafe and particularly in the Arab world. could prove fatal. Given that the report into the review of children’s heart units—commissioned by the previous Q3. [49648] Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): Families Government, of course—contains factual errors, and who have lost their jobs have been able to apply for given that there is a question over the impartiality of emergency loans to tide them over, so why, when the board that made the final recommendations, will unemployment is at a 17-year high and is predicted to the Prime Minister now agree to halt the process? If get worse, does information leaked to me show that the not, does he think that the only option is judicial Government plan to cut the fund tomorrow, and why, review? just like last week’s cuts to winter fuel payments, was this not announced in the Budget? The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely The Prime Minister: We are putting in place the right to speak up for his constituency, which could be biggest and boldest programme since the great depression affected by that review, as indeed could mine. We want to help unemployed people. That is what the Work to make sure that the review is as transparent as possible programme is all about, and the hon. Gentleman should and involved and engaged with parents and with everyone work with us to make sure that it can help everyone, in communities. There are many times, however, when including those in his constituency. rather bogus arguments are put forward for specialisation in the NHS, but, in a really complicated case such as Q4. [49649] Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): Taking into child heart surgery, there are cases for specialisation, account the high levels of deprivation in Lowestoft in and, as passionately as we all want to defend our own my constituency, and in Great Yarmouth, coupled with hospitals, we have to think about clinical safety and the unrivalled potential of the East Anglian coast for what is best for children. He is absolutely right to speak creating jobs in the offshore energy sector, does the up for his hospital, as I am for the one that serves my Prime Minister agree that those prospects would be constituency, but we have to have some understanding significantly boosted by the creation of an enterprise about the complexity of what we are dealing with. zone? Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Does The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a very the Prime Minister understand that unilaterally setting articulate case for an enterprise zone. I am delighted the minimum price for carbon in Britain will drive out that we have introduced 21 enterprise zones, and clearly inward investors such as Tata Steel in Swansea? Carbon there is a case that colleagues can make for more. There trading by its very nature requires a common price, not are real strengths in his area in terms of green-tech jobs, a unilateral one, so will he suspend that price and send which I know he supports, and I am sure that the his Chancellor into the European Union to negotiate a Chancellor will have heard his message. common price and ensure that we have a level playing field for inward investment? Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): Dozens of families in my constituency were put out of their homes overnight and remain out of their homes as a result of The Prime Minister: I respect the hon. Gentleman’s terrorist activity, the latest in a long line of such incidents views, but I do not agree with him. I think the steps in Northern Ireland recently. Will the Prime Minister taken in the Budget are right, and we should judge join me in condemning that terrorist activity? As well as companies such as Tata by the investments that they supporting the police and the Army with resources, make. I have been hugely heartened by the fact that Tata does he agree that, as we approach the Assembly elections is putting more investment into the UK. Its Redcar in a few weeks’ time and mark the first full term of plant closed under the previous Government, but it is uninterrupted, stable devolution in Northern Ireland going to reopen in part because of the investment that for generations, the best answer that we can give to such Tata is making. I will of course listen to the hon. people is to reject them, reject their policies, reject their Gentleman, but I think that Ratan Tata knows a bit wanting to drag us back to the past and to keep Northern more about his business than he does. Ireland moving forward? Q6. [49651] Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman speaks (Con): My constituent Geoff Jacobs is in Parliament with support from all parts of the House for what he for The Prostate Cancer Charity’s action day to remind says—with both points that he makes. First, we have to us that prostate cancer is the most common cancer in be eternally vigilant against terrorists in Northern Ireland men. With only three out of 10 men being aware of the and elsewhere; we should do that, and he knows that prostate-specific antigen blood test, and with 10,000 men the British Government will give every support that each year dying of the disease, does the Prime Minister they can to the Northern Ireland Executive. Secondly, have a dream—of better outcomes for the increasing the best proof of success, and that there is a non-violent investment in the NHS? 339 Oral Answers30 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 340

The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely Q9. [49654] Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con): right to raise this issue. He is right that it is a dream we As we approach Good Friday, we might reflect on the can have, but the fact that prostate cancer is such a role of Pontius Pilate. With that in mind, will my right massive killer is a nightmare for many families and hon. Friend reassure the House that he would never many people in this country, and we really do need to address crowds on Hyde park corner protesting about do something about it. That means better early diagnosis, reductions in spending if he had been responsible for better testing, and better access to drugs. All those the economic mess that was the cause of the reductions things are contained in our plans for the NHS. in the first place?

Q7.[49652]DrAlasdairMcDonnell(BelfastSouth)(SDLP): The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend puts it extremely The Prime Minister will be aware of the large number of well. Far from standing on the shoulders of the suffragettes, women across the UK, including a number in my or whatever nonsense we heard at the weekend, the fact constituency, who are in their late 50s—58 or 59—and is that the Leader of the Opposition is sitting in a great on low incomes, and he will be aware that speeding up big pool of debt that was his creation, and he has got the equalisation of the state pension age will affect absolutely no idea what to do about it. some 2.9 million of them, with many having to wait two years and, as a result, lose up to £10,000. These are Q15. [49660] Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): usually people on low incomes and in marginalised In 2009, the Prime Minister promised families with economies. Does the Prime Minister intend to put in disabled children, in his own words, place any measures to cushion the severe affects on “a crack team of medical experts—doctor, nurse, physio—” these people on low incomes and their stretched financial to circumstances? “act as a one-stop-shop to assess families and get them the help they need.” The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman makes an Can he tell the House how many of these teams have important point. Of course, the equalisation of the been set up? pension age does ask people to work for longer in their lives, and it is a big change. But I think that because The Prime Minister: What I can tell the hon. Lady is people are living longer, it is right that we make this that it was very much something based on my own change to make sure we can have a good, strong and experience of having repeated assessments when you affordable pension system. The biggest thing we are are trying to get help, benefits and social work, and in doing is linking the pension to earnings rather than the special educational needs Green Paper that precise prices, which means that someone retiring today will be idea is rapidly becoming Government policy. getting £15,000 more over the next period than they would have done under the old plans—so one is partly to pay for the other. Q10. [49655] CarolineDinenage(Gosport)(Con):Despite some unhelpful local party political mischief-making about the future of our valuable Sure Start services, will Q8. [49653] Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): The last the Prime Minister join me in welcoming Hampshire Government left us with one in five young people county council’s proposals to protect front-line Sure unemployed. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the Start services while saving public money by cutting new university technical colleges will help to transform back-office costs? the lives of young people and are a matter of social justice as well as economic efficiency? Will he support Lord Baker in supporting the strong bid of Harlow The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely college to have a UTC so that Harlow— right. The key thing is that the head of Sure Start services has herself said that there is money available in the Budget to keep Sure Start open. That money is not Mr Speaker: Order. We get the gist of it. being reduced.

The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): On 24 March right to speak up for Harlow and to speak up for last year, six weeks before the general election, the university technical colleges, which I think are going to Derby Telegraph reported that the Prime Minister had be a great innovation in our country. I pay tribute to accused me of distributing inaccurate information about Lord Baker for the work he is doing, and to my right Conservative plans for the winter fuel payment. It turns hon. Friend the Education Secretary and to the Chancellor, out that I was right and he was wrong, so, unless he is who put extra money in the Budget so that 21 of these going to overrule his Chancellor, will he take this colleges can open in our country, including, I hope, in opportunity to apologise to the millions of pensioners Harlow. who rely on the winter fuel allowance and to me for his unfair censure? Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): The coalition agreement promised that the NHS budget The Prime Minister: I cannot believe that I accused would increase in real terms in each year. Since the the hon. Gentleman of anything because I had absolutely spending review, inflation has spiralled very high and no idea who he was. While we are at it, we promised that we now face a real-terms cut of £1 billion for the NHS. we would keep the winter fuel payments and we have What is the Prime Minister going to do about that? kept the winter fuel payments. We promised that we would keep the cold weather payments and we have The Prime Minister: We said that NHS spending kept the cold weather payments. We promised to uprate would increase in real terms each year, and it will. the pension in line with earnings and we increased the 341 Oral Answers30 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 342 earnings link. We said that we would keep the bus want it to be interim and transitional. They are democrats, passes and the TV licences—we did all those things. Yes, they are not tribal, and they want to see a future for the he did mislead his electors at the election. whole of Libya where the people have a choice in how they are governed. I was encouraged by what I heard. Q11. [49656] Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Queen’s award-winning Norbar Torque, rally-winning Prodrive Q13. [49658] Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): and global award-winning CTG—Crompton Technology Last week, I had the privilege of meeting a group of Group—are all manufacturing businesses based in Banbury. 25 women studying English for speakers of other They are all doing so well that they want to move into languages courses in Lewisham. They and I share the larger premises, but they also have immediate skill Prime Minister’s desire that every migrant in the UK vacancies that they need to fill. What collectively can we should speak the language of their new home. Given do to try to ensure that people who are unemployed the Prime Minister’s belief that the practical things can elsewhere in the country and who have skills know of make a big difference to community cohesion, will he the skills they— commit today to putting a stop to this Government’s short-sighted cuts to English language courses? Mr Speaker: Order. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, but we do have other Members to accommodate. The Prime Minister: We will have to take some difficult decisions over student numbers, and the priority should The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right to raise be to ensure that our universities can go on attracting this issue and the reaction of the Opposition shows that the best and the brightest from around the world. they are not interested in manufacturing, skills, technology [Interruption.] I will come on to the hon. Lady’s point. and ensuring that we expand those things. We will have That is why we have said that there should be a post-study 250,000 apprenticeships over this Parliament, the university work route. However, it does mean that we should be technical colleges will make a difference and it is very tough, particularly on those colleges that are not highly good news to hear about the expansion of manufacturing regarded. The fact is that over the last year, about in his constituency. 90,000 students were coming to colleges that did not have proper regard at all. Q12. [49657] Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): The Welfare Reform Bill proposes to introduce a £50 civil Q14. [49659] Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): A penalty for claimants who make a mistake in completing multinational is applying to build an incinerator the size the application form. At the same time, advice agencies of a football pitch some 500 metres from the small have stated that they are facing a perfect storm of market town of Middlewich in my constituency. There funding cuts and many fear that they will not be in is no need for this provision; it will involve importing existence to help the vulnerable in completing the forms. waste and it has been unanimously rejected by the local Does the Prime Minister think that this is fair? planning committee. Does the Prime Minister agree that the concerns of local people over the negative The Prime Minister: I would make two points to the impact that it will have on their town should be afforded hon. Lady. First, it is fair to say that the Government paramount importance when the proposal is considered are not cutting the money that we put into citizens on appeal? advice bureaux, for exactly the reason she gives. I urge all councils to do what my local council has done and The Prime Minister: I agree with my hon. Friend that find savings in bureaucracy to ensure that they are local considerations should be taken into account. That putting money into citizens advice bureaux. As regards is one reason why we have made the changes to the her point about fines for people who misclaim benefits, Infrastructure Planning Commission. It is important I am afraid that I think that it is right. Far too much in that local communities have their say, and she has put our system is lost from fraud and error and I do not the case extremely strongly. think that taxpayers go to work, and work hard, in order to fund benefits to which people are not entitled. Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): When all the local MPs met the North Staffordshire chamber of Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): May I commerce last week, it asked us why north Staffordshire urge my right hon. Friend to display extreme caution in was not on the list to have a local enterprise zone. Does the supply of arms to the so-called rebels in Libya? The the Prime Minister understand the need for job creation legal position is by no means clear, as his previous in Stoke-on-Trent, and will he arrange for his colleagues answer to the Leader of the Opposition made eloquently in local government and at the Department for Business, obvious. In addition, the political consequences of doing Innovation and Skills to liaise with us and the Treasury so, particularly among the nearly 40 countries that were to ensure that we get that investment when the new list represented at the successful conference in London is announced in July? yesterday, are very difficult to predict. The Prime Minister: I completely understand the The Prime Minister: My right hon. and learned Friend point that the hon. Lady makes, particularly in relation is right to be cautious and sceptical and I think we to Stoke, where the Potteries—[Interruption.] I wish should consider this decision with huge care. Although that the shadow Chancellor would occasionally shut up the legal position is clearer, there are some strong arguments and listen to the answer. [Interruption.] like his to which we would have listen. Yesterday, however, I met Mr Jabril of the interim transitional national Mr Speaker: Order. Other Members can now follow council and I was reassured to see that those people the Prime Minister’s advice to the shadow Chancellor. who are forming an alternative Government in Benghazi We need a bit of order. 343 Oral Answers30 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 344

The Prime Minister: I may be alone in finding the The Prime Minister: I will certainly look carefully at shadow Chancellor the most annoying person in modern the point that my right hon. Friend makes. The point politics—[Interruption.] No, no. I have a feeling that that I would make about Statoil is that the regime in the Leader of the Opposition will one day agree with Norway has higher duties and taxes on petrol than the me, but there we are. UK does. The key point is that when companies in the Where were we? The Potteries, yes. Clearly, there are North sea made investment decisions, the oil price was massive issues because of the decline of the Potteries. I about $65 a barrel, and it is now about $115 a barrel. I completely understand the need for Stoke to have that think that the break we are giving the motorist by support. It is very important that the hon. Member for cutting petrol tax—including for people in his constituency, Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley) is working to bring many of whom rely on their cars—will be hugely welcome. together the Potteries communities, including MPs and the local enterprise partnership. I will certainly ask my Mr Speaker: We come to the statement by the Foreign right hon. Friend the Chancellor to look at whether it Secretary. can be in the next lot of enterprise zones, because we want to help the Potteries communities she represents. Chris Williamson rose—

Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): In the light of the Mr Speaker: Order. I say to the hon. Gentleman, who announcement by Statoil this week that it is cancelling is a new Member, that points of order, without fail, £6 billion of investment in the North sea following the come after statements. The hon. Gentleman— Budget, will the Prime Minister ensure that Ministers at the Treasury and the Department of Energy and Climate Chris Williamson rose— Change engage with the industry to explain how the field allowances might be adjusted to ensure that this Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman will have his valued investment goes ahead and that jobs are not opportunity at the appropriate time, but not at the lost? inappropriate time. 345 30 MARCH 2011 Libya (London Conference) 346

Libya (London Conference) tanks and personnel carriers. The Department for International Development has been involved in funding the successful provision of humanitarian assistance 12.33 pm to the city, and we are urgently examining options for The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth the provision of further assistance. One obstacle to Affairs (Mr William Hague): With permission, Mr Speaker, humanitarian support for the people of Misrata has I will make a statement on the outcome of the London been regime vessels trying to blockade the port. Those conference on Libya and related events. vessels were attacked by coalition aircraft yesterday and I informed the House last Thursday that planning four of them were sunk and one was beached. was under way to transfer coalition operations from US To underline our grave concern at the regime’s behaviour, to NATO command and control. On Sunday, NATO I can announce to the House that we have today taken allies decided to take on full responsibility for the steps to expel five diplomats at the Libyan embassy in implementation of all military aspects of Security Council London, including the military attaché. The Government resolution 1973, including the civilian protection mission, judged that were those individuals to remain in Britain, along with the no-fly zone and arms embargo operations they could pose a threat to our security. We also remain which are now under NATO command. The transition strongly committed to supporting the International to full NATO command is under way. The North Atlantic Criminal Court in its investigations into crimes in Libya Council will provide executive political direction for the and to ensuring that there is no impunity for barbaric military operations, and is meeting later today. I hope acts against the Libyan people. the whole House will welcome the speed with which In my last statement to the House, I confirmed that I NATO has moved to put in place the planning and had invited the envoy of the interim transitional national launch of those three demanding operations more quickly council, Mahmoud Jabril, to visit London. He did so than was the case for Bosnia or Kosovo. yesterday, for meetings with me and with the Prime There are currently 16 nations contributing assets to Minister and to launch the council’s vision for a democratic coalition operations, including nations from the middle Libya. I will place a copy of that document in the east region. Fifteen nations have now committed a total Library of the House. of nearly 350 aircraft, and vessels from 10 nations A British diplomatic mission also visited Benghazi on are supporting the arms embargo. Yesterday, Sweden Monday and Tuesday this week, headed by a senior announced that it would contribute eight fighter aircraft, British diplomat, Christopher Prentice. The purpose of and the United Arab Emirates publicly announced its the mission was to meet key Libyan opposition groups contribution of 12 air defence fighters on Friday last in eastern Libya, including the ITNC and its military week. The NATO Secretary-General has issued a request council; to gain a greater insight into the political and for further contributions, which we hope other countries security situation; to explain British Government policies will consider seriously. towards Libya; and to discuss future governance UK forces have undertaken more than 160 aerial arrangements in Libya, including identifying what Britain missions over Libya since operations began, in addition can do to help. The team met the president of the to missile strikes. We are continuing to target the military ITNC, Mustafa al-Jalil, among others. It has now left hardware that Gaddafi is using to kill his own people. Libya, and further missions will follow shortly. Over the weekend, in addition to patrolling the no-fly Yesterday, delegations including more than 30 Foreign zone, RAF aircraft destroyed a number of main battle Ministers, the UN Secretary-General and representatives tanks and armoured vehicles near Misrata. The RAF of the Arab League, the European Union, NATO and also took part in a successful coalition mission against the Organisation of the Islamic Conference met in an ammunition storage facility store near Sabha early London. Our Government went into the conference on Monday morning. with three objectives, all of which were met. The first As evidence of the care that we are taking to minimise was to strengthen and broaden the international coalition the risk of civilian casualties, yesterday I received a committed to implementing Security Council resolutions letter from the local council in Misrata thanking Britain 1970 and 1973. This was achieved. Many more countries and our allies for the targeted strikes and the enforcement were involved in the conference and supporting our of the no-fly zone, which are alleviating pressure on the objectives than at the time of the Paris summit 11 days ago. people of Misrata. The letter stated that the local Secondly, we aimed to focus attention on the delivery council could of urgent humanitarian assistance to alleviate suffering “testify for the effectiveness and the accuracy of those strikes and in Misrata and at Libya’s borders, and to plan for the confirm that there has been not a single case of civilian injury let needs of Libya after conflict. The conference agreed alone death in and around Misrata” priorities for a humanitarian response and welcomed as a result of coalition activity. That is testament to the an offer from the UN Secretary-General to lead the skill, experience and precision of our armed forces, and co-ordination of humanitarian assistance and planning the whole House will join me in paying tribute to them. for longer-term stabilisation support. Turkey, other key Our country literally could not do without them for a regional players and international agencies offered to single day, and they are doing a great job in support of support that work and take it forward. the civilian population of Libya. Contingency military planning also continues in the The situation on the ground remains fluid. Regime EU to enable support to humanitarian operations, if so forces have intensified their attacks, driving back opposition requested by the UN Office for the Co-ordination of forces from ground that they had taken in recent days. Humanitarian Affairs, as agreed at the European Council Misrata also came under heavy attack yesterday, with last Friday. It is right that we start planning now to further loss of civilian life, including children, from support Libyans over the long term to build a peaceful mortars, sniper fire and attacks on all sides from regime and prosperous future. 347 Libya (London Conference)30 MARCH 2011 Libya (London Conference) 348

Thirdly, we argued that the conference must agree the role. The Arab League was an early supporter of a need for a political process, led by the Libyan people, no-fly zone, and African members of the Security Council that helps to create the conditions in which the people supported resolution 1973. There will therefore be concerns of Libya can choose their own future, supported by the that Saudi Arabia failed to attend yesterday’s conference, international community. Military action is not an end and although we welcome the presence of representatives in itself. The announcement of a political programme of Tunisia and Morocco, there were few African states by the ITNC was an important first step in that process. at the table and no representative of the African Union. The conference was also attended by the UN Secretary- Can the Foreign Secretary explain that and update the General’s special representative for Libya, Mr al-Khatib, House on what work is being done to broaden and who travelled to Libya last night. The conference agreed deepen the coalition of support for action beyond those that Gaddafi has lost all legitimacy, and to continue who attended yesterday’s conference? efforts to isolate him and his regime by considering Secondly, the question regarding the arming of rebels additional sanctions on individuals and companies of the eastern part of Libya has two parts: would it be associated with the regime. legal, and if it were, would it be advisable? Yesterday, We agreed to establish a Libya contact group to take the US Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, said on the that work forward. The contact group will provide legality of arming the forces of eastern Libya: leadership and overall political direction to the international “It is our interpretation that 1973 amended or overrode the effort to support Libya; act as a forum for co-ordinating absolute prohibition of arms to anyone in Libya so that there international policy on Libya; and provide a focal point could be legitimate transfer of arms if a country were to choose in the international community for contact with the to do that.” Libyan parties. Qatar has agreed to convene the first Two weeks ago, in a debate following the passage of meeting of the group, which we will co-chair. Thereafter, resolution 1973, the Prime Minister was asked the same the chairmanship will rotate between the countries of question about the resolution by the hon. Member for the region and beyond it. Beckenham (Bob Stewart). He replied that Security Council resolution 1973 laid out very clear “our legal understanding is that that arms embargo applies to the conditions that the Gaddafi regime must meet, including whole of Libya.”—[Official Report, 18 March 2011; Vol. 525, the establishment of an immediate ceasefire, a halt to all c. 623.] attacks on civilians and full humanitarian access to The summary legal memorandum that the Government those in need. Participants in the conference agreed to provided to the House for the debate on United Nations continue their efforts until all those conditions are Security Council resolution 1973 is silent on this question. fulfilled. The Libyan regime will be judged by its actions Yesterday, the Foreign Secretary appeared to be moving and not by its words. closer to the US position, saying: The London conference showed that we are united in “Those resolutions in our view apply to the whole of Libya, our aims—seeking a Libya that does not pose a threat although it is consistent with resolution 1973 to give people aid in to its own citizens or to the region, and working with order to defend themselves in particular circumstances.” the people of Libya as they choose their own way Will he therefore give the House his view on the legality forward to a peaceful and stable future. It also demonstrated of arming anyone in Libya under the terms of both that clear international support for the people of Libya. Security Council resolutions? Given the importance With that support, there is every prospect of focused and significance of this issue, will he also undertake to and sustained assistance to the people of Libya as they update the summary legal memorandum and to place seek to determine their own future. copies of it in the Library of the House of Commons, so as to set out definitively the Government’s position Mr Douglas Alexander (Paisley and Renfrewshire on the interpretation of the Security Council resolutions? South) (Lab): I thank the Foreign Secretary for his The issue of the legality of arming the rebels sits statement, although I regret that a copy of it was not alongside the issue of its advisability. NATO’s Supreme made available timeously ahead of Prime Minister’s Allied Commander Europe warned yesterday: questions. None the less, I place on record my appreciation “We have seen flickers in the intelligence of potential Al for the work of Foreign and Commonwealth Office Qaeda, Hezbollah”. Ministers and officials in facilitating yesterday’s London This is therefore a pressing and urgent question for the meeting. Government. I hope that the Foreign Secretary will The meeting made progress on a number of fronts on agree with me that, to date, the case has not been made which the Opposition had specifically sought action. on the advisability of taking this course of action. Of The establishment of a friends of Libya contact group course we would all prefer a Libya without Gaddafi, is something that I have advocated for some weeks, and but, given our lack of knowledge about some elements I now welcome it. Let me re-state our support for the of the rebel forces, does he agree that we must proceed work of our armed forces—both the RAF and the with very real caution on the question of armaments? Royal Navy—in implementing UN Security Council Can he confirm that all efforts are being made to resolution 1973. I also join the participants in the identify the risk of links to al-Qaeda? Further, can he summit in welcoming the UN Secretary-General’s offer confirm whether Libyan nationals, including from eastern to lead the co-ordination of humanitarian assistance Libya, have been involved in the insurgency that opposed and planning for longer-term stabilisation support. our troops in Iraq or in the continuing conflict in Although progress was made yesterday, comments Afghanistan? from both inside and outside the conference have raised The other question that has been raised in the past real questions for the Government. First, from the day is that of Gaddafi himself. The prosecutor of the outset of this crisis, the Opposition have been keen that International Criminal Court has said that he is “one the Arab League and the African Union play a strong hundred per cent” certain that his investigation will lead 349 Libya (London Conference)30 MARCH 2011 Libya (London Conference) 350

[Mr Douglas Alexander] League’s strong support for implementing the UN Security Council’s resolutions and for the action taken so far. No to charges of crimes against humanity against Gaddafi one should be in any doubt about the position of the and his regime. Yesterday, however, the Foreign Secretary’s Arab League. It is true, of course, that the African ministerial colleague, the Under-Secretary of State for Union did not attend; there were divisions within in it Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the hon. Member over whether it should. We are in constant touch with for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), said that the African Union and my right hon. Friend the Secretary Britain of State for International Development is in almost “would not stand in the way” daily touch with its chairman. I have had several conversations about this issue with President Museveni if Gaddafi were to leave the country. Can the Foreign of Uganda. Clearly, the African Union does not have a Secretary set out the Government’s position on whether united position, but we will invite it to engage with the they would now be prepared for Gaddafi’s escape from contact group that we are establishing and we will keep international justice in order to prevent further bloodshed? our regular communication going. On 21 March, the Government received a specific mandate from the House for a specific mission in Libya, On the question of arming the rebels, the Prime as set out in Security Council resolution 1973. I welcome Minister made the position clear at Prime Minister’s the fact that post-conflict planning is now more firmly questions. We have said that everything we do must on the international agenda after yesterday’s meeting, comply with the Security Council resolutions, which also but may I take the Foreign Secretary back to what the relates to the right hon. Gentleman’s last point. It is a US President said when resolution 1973 was passed? He point I make constantly—that everything we do must said that the resolution be consistent with those resolutions. It is acting strictly in accordance with UN resolutions that gives a legal, “authorizes the use of force with an explicit commitment to pursue all necessary measures to stop the killing, to include the moral and international authority to our deeds, which enforcement of a no-fly zone over Libya. It also strengthens our has not, of course, always been there before. As I have sanctions and the enforcement of an arms embargo against the already told the House, and as the Prime Minister said Qaddafi regime.” in the debate a couple of weeks ago, the legal position is President Obama continued: that the arms embargo applies to the whole territory of Libya. At the same time, our legal advice is that “The resolution that passed lays out very clear conditions that must be met. The United States, the United Kingdom, France, resolution 1973 allows all necessary measures to protect and Arab states agree that a cease-fire must be implemented civilians and civilian-populated areas and that this would immediately. That means all attacks against civilians must stop. not necessarily rule out the provision of assistance to Qaddafi must stop his troops from advancing on Benghazi, pull those protecting civilians in certain circumstances. Clearly, them back from Ajdabiya, Misrata, and Zawiya, and establish there are differing views internationally about the legal water, electricity and gas supplies to all areas. Humanitarian position, but I have explained what is the view of the assistance must be allowed to reach the people of Libya.” British Government. As the Prime Minister told the Can the Foreign Secretary therefore confirm whether, in House, we do not rule it out, but we have not taken any the view of the British Government, the achievement of decision to provide that assistance. those conditions set out by President Obama still represent In response to my right hon. and learned Friend the the fulfilment of the mission? Hon. Members on both Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell), sides of the House would welcome a Libya free of the Prime Minister also indicated at Prime Minister’s Gaddafi’s tyranny, but the consent of the international questions that the Government would indeed proceed community—and the consent of the House—was given with caution on this subject, as the shadow Foreign for a specific mission, with specific aims and limitations. Secretary asked us to do. Questions of advisability, as As I said at the outset of this crisis, the Opposition the right hon. Gentleman quite rightly says, are different will provide support for the enforcement of the UN from questions of legality.We will always be very conscious resolution and sustained scrutiny of its implementation. of that. Of course, if we changed our policy, we would In that spirit, I ask the Foreign Secretary to provide certainly want to inform the House, but we are not greater clarity in his reply, particularly on the questions currently engaged in any arming of the opposition or of the legality of arming the rebels, the character of rebel forces. some of the anti-Gaddafi forces, the role of the International Criminal Court and the limited nature of this mission. Of course we want to know about any links with al-Qaeda, as we do about links with any organisations anywhere in the world, but given what we have seen of Mr Hague: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the interim transitional national council in Libya, I continuing the wide support for the idea of a contact think it would be right to put the emphasis on the group. It received unanimous support at the conference positive side, as the Prime Minister did earlier. From yesterday, which is why it was so easy to proceed with it everything we saw from our meetings with members of and, indeed, with recognising the role of the UN Secretary- the council yesterday and from telephone conversations General in offering to lead the co-ordination of I have had with other members, I believe it is sincere in humanitarian assistance. its commitment to a pluralistic, open Libya. The council The right hon. Gentleman asked about the attendance published yesterday what is in effect its manifesto, which or otherwise of the Arab League and the African Union. states its commitment to freedom of expression and The Arab League was well represented at yesterday’s freedom of the media, to the development of political meeting. The Secretary-General, Amr Moussa, was not parties and civil society and so forth. I think we should able to come and he explained to me why he could not, welcome that and I think there is a genuine and strong but he sent his chef de cabinet, an ambassador, who desire in Libya among the opposition groups to bring made a powerful speech at the conference on the Arab those things about. It would give the wrong impression 351 Libya (London Conference)30 MARCH 2011 Libya (London Conference) 352 of those groups, from everything we have seen and consequences both for the immediate future and for the everything that our diplomat, Christopher Prentice, saw longer term. Such considerations would have to be very in Benghazi, to accentuate any allegations of links with carefully weighed before the Government changed their other groups outside Libya rather than to accentuate policy on this matter. those intentions that they clearly hold dear to their hearts. Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): May I reinforce The right hon. Gentleman asked about the International the appreciation of my right hon. Friend the Member Criminal Court. I mentioned in my statement how for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mr Alexander) for strictly we uphold its work. The United Kingdom has the Foreign Secretary by offering my congratulations to always done so under successive Governments and it the right hon. Gentleman on the way in which he has will continue to do so. That does not mean that we can handled this conference? The fact that the Foreign control what happens to Colonel Gaddafi, but we are Secretary did it on an inclusive basis is, as I saw on a not proposing to grant him any exemption from the visit to Turkey last weekend, much acknowledged and prosecutor of the International Criminal Court. That appreciated in that country and across the region. With was something that we proposed should be part of UN that in mind, I turn briefly to the issue of arms supplies resolution 1970. to the rebels. First, does the right hon. Gentleman accept that, however interesting it is for us to debate the The right hon. Gentleman asked about the conditions issue of legality, the decision about the legality of any set by President Obama on behalf of the coalition when such action and the interpretation of the dense texts of the military operations began. Yes, those conditions these resolutions is a matter for the Attorney-General still apply—the conditions of a real ceasefire, not just a and for him alone? Secondly, does he accept that if it is pretend ceasefire. It does not mean the regime sitting in lawful, it becomes a matter of advisability, as he says, the middle of a town like Misrata and still being engaged and that what is critical in all this is that in making any at close quarters with the civilian population it is trying decisions, the international coalition—especially the support to kill. Clearly, a credible ceasefire involves disengaging of the Muslim and Arab world—is paramount? from those areas. Events have moved on since President Obama made his statement, which was about not advancing Mr Hague: Yes, I think that I can happily agree with on Benghazi. Since then, that has become less relevant, all of what the right hon. Gentleman has said. Maintaining although we do not know whether it will become relevant that breadth of international coalition is very important. again. We understand and interpret the requirement for We have said all along that the support of the Arab a ceasefire and an end to violence in terms of those League and the participation of Arab nations—the general conditions, which involve disengagement in order Organisation of the Islamic Conference was represented to fulfil the UN resolution. That reinforces our continuing strongly yesterday—were of huge importance, and they rigid approach to enforcing the UN resolution and to will continue to be of huge importance. We must not staying within the UN resolution. We must also keep take actions that jeopardise that support. the international unity and moral authority that our conduct of affairs so far has given us on this issue. I also strongly take the right hon. Gentleman’s point about Turkey, which played a major role in our conference yesterday. I shall have further talks with the Turkish Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington) (Con): May I strongly Foreign Minister this afternoon and with the Turkish disagree with the shadow Foreign Secretary and welcome Prime Minister tomorrow. The coalition Government the statement by the American and British Governments continue to build the strongest possible bilateral relationship that military supplies to the insurgents would be permissible with Turkey, as we have done over the past 10 months. under the UN resolution if that were appropriate to protect civilian-populated areas? Does my right hon. Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): I congratulate Friend agree that the physical safety of the people of the Foreign Secretary on a successful conference, which Tripoli and other parts of Libya will be ensured only if was an important milestone in allowing the Libyans to there is a speedy end to this civil war leading to the decide their own future. As for the arms embargo, does departure of Gaddafi, and that that cannot be achieved he agree that there is a big difference between arming by coalition air power alone, but only if the insurgents—they the rebels to enable them to protect themselves, and are no longer rebels, as there is no longer any legitimacy arming the rebels to enable them to attack Gaddafi, for the Government in Tripoli—are properly assisted to which is tantamount to regime change? bring this war to an end as soon as possible so that a no-fly zone is no longer required? Mr Hague: Certainly there would be a big difference between those positions. My hon. Friend should bear in Mr Hague: I can go so far with my right hon. and mind what I said earlier, and what the Prime Minister learned Friend. He is quite right about the utter absence said, about our interpretation of Security Council of legitimacy for the Gaddafi regime now, and I accept resolution 1973—that it does not necessarily rule out his welcome for the statement of the legal position on the provision of assistance for those protecting civilians the supply of arms that we have set out; the United in certain circumstances. This is very much about protecting States Government also provided their version of that civilians. It is not about weapons that would be used position. Nevertheless, I underline what I said to the primarily for attack, and it is certainly not about a shadow Foreign Secretary—that questions of advisability general arming of one side in the conflict. So yes, there and policy would have to be examined in this regard, is a clear distinction between those actions. not just questions of legality. One can make the argument that my right hon. and learned Friend makes, but one Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): As can also make the argument that introducing new weapons the Foreign Secretary has acknowledged, the issue of into a conflict can have unforeseeable and unknown arming the insurgent groups has three dimensions. The 353 Libya (London Conference)30 MARCH 2011 Libya (London Conference) 354

[Mr Bob Ainsworth] Mr Hague: The position of the African Union on attendance changed several times during the days preceding first is legality, the second is our shallow knowledge of the conference, owing to internal disagreements. Only at all the people involved in those insurgencies, and the the last moment—the night before the conference, I third is the impact on the international community, believe—was it certain that the African Union would which my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and not attend. Nevertheless, as I said earlier, we are engaged Renfrewshire South (Mr Alexander) persuaded the Foreign in constant dialogue with the African Union, and it has Secretary to discuss. Can he give some indication of the an important role to play. We will continue that dialogue, feedback that he has received from different partners in and I hope that the African Union will join a contact this operation about their attitude to the arming of the group. insurgent groups? I do not think that the basis of the disagreements within the African Union comes as any surprise. Yesterday’s Mr Hague: I agree that there are those three dimensions, conference expressed strong support for the implementation but I believe that it is for other countries to state their of the resolutions and for the actions that we are taking, positions. I do not think that it would be right for me to including the military action, under operative paragraph 4 go through a checklist of countries and announce any of resolution 1973. Some African nations find that attitudes that they have expressed to Her Majesty’s difficult. Some of them have been the closest of all Government in private—I do not think that that would nations in the world to the Gaddafi regime, and it is not be very diplomatic—and I therefore fear that I cannot surprising that that creates some tensions in the African give the right hon. Gentleman the information that he Union and makes it more difficult for it to engage in a has requested. I can say, however, that although there is conference of this kind. a variety of views on the issue, all the nations involved in the conference are of the same mind. That was made Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Last week I had clear during the press conference that I held with the contact with someone who opposed Colonel Gaddafi in Prime Minister of Qatar last night. However those Tripoli. Having had some experience of what people nations interpret the resolutions, it is not their policy at such as the members of Colonel Gaddafi’s security this moment to engage in arming particular groups in organisation may be doing, I am quite concerned about Libya. I believe that there is an international consensus what is happening in the streets and alleys of Tripoli. on that. Has my right hon. Friend any knowledge of what action Gaddafi is taking against likely opponents within Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): Some Tripoli? of us remain of the view that the west’s intervention is as much about regime change as it is about humanitarian Mr Hague: My hon. Friend is right to raise those aid. Will the Foreign Secretary make absolutely clear fears. A report produced yesterday by Amnesty whether it is the Government’s view that UN Security International quotes its middle east and north Africa Council resolution 1973 would allow a no-fly zone, in director as saying: effect, to follow the rebels should they wish to attack “It appears that there is a systematic policy to detain anyone Tripoli, and also allow the west’s fighter planes to hit suspected of opposition to Colonel al-Gaddafi’s rule, hold them Gaddafi’s ground forces in Tripoli if that were to be the incommunicado, and transfer them to his strongholds in western case? Libya”. He is also quoted as saying: Mr Hague: I disagree with some of my hon. Friend’s “there is every reason to believe that these individuals are at assumptions. This is not a western intervention but the serious risk of torture and ill-treatment.” enforcement of a United Nations resolution for which Given the reports from Amnesty International and African and Arab nations voted, and Arab nations are other reports that have appeared in the media, and the participating in the enforcement of that resolution. The kind of things that have been communicated to my hon. no-fly zone applies to the whole of Libya, and it is in Friend, I think we can be confident that this is a regime force over a very wide area of Libya. Of course that with absolutely no regard for human rights, for human includes Tripoli, and will continue to include Tripoli life, or for the welfare of the people of its own country. whatever the circumstances on the ground. As I keep That is why, in the eyes of virtually of the whole world, stressing, air strikes against ground forces of the regime it has utterly lost its legitimacy. have been and will continue to be used—in accordance with the UN resolution—on forces that are attacking, Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I am slightly or can be used to threaten to attack, or pose a threat of concerned about the fact that the Foreign Secretary attack, to civilian and populated areas. appears to be taking advice on human rights from the President of Uganda on behalf of the African Union, Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): Earlier this because Uganda’s human rights record is, to say the week the Prime Minister told us that the African Union least, questionable. Does the Foreign Secretary not would be represented at the London conference, although acknowledge that we are now involved in a civil war? he did not know the individual concerned. The Foreign Anyone listening to his statement from outside will have Secretary has referred to some internal difficulties in the recognised that Britain is supporting the insurgent forces African Union, but has said in earlier answers that it in Libya. has a potential role in providing for a ceasefire or a Is there any endgame? Does the Foreign Secretary peaceful solution. Can he tell us more about why the intend to send in ground forces? Does he intend to arm African Union did not attend, and when the British the insurgent forces? It seems to me that we are being Government were informed that it would not do so? increasingly sucked into a conflict with no obvious end 355 Libya (London Conference)30 MARCH 2011 Libya (London Conference) 356 in sight other than a great deal of bloodshed. Can the Mr Hague: I shall put the hon. Gentleman down as Foreign Secretary say something more about diplomatic being opposed to the arming of the rebels—but he must efforts to bring about an internal ceasefire and an not get too excited about things that we have not done. internal settlement in Libya, rather than pouring in Such questions of advisability are the very questions more and more arms and weapons? that would need to be assessed. As I have said, if we changed our policy on this we would say so to the Mr Hague: I assure the hon. Gentleman that I did not House, and we would then be able to debate that. The call President Museveni to ask for his advice on human hon. Gentleman is right that in history there are rights. As I explained earlier, I called him to discuss the examples—more than the one example he gave—of African Union’s attendance at the London conference. weapons being given to people in good faith and then The hon. Gentleman must not place a different being used at a later stage for other purposes that their interpretation on what I said. In fact, I must correct original owners had not desired. That is one of the what he has said in a couple of respects. He ended his considerations that have to be borne in mind. question by saying that we were pouring more arms into Libya, but it follows from everything that I have said so Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): May I urge the far that we are not pouring more arms into Libya. Foreign Secretary to resist the siren calls of the shadow The hon. Gentleman asked about the end of all this. Foreign Secretary about looking at the backgrounds Remember that the purpose of resolution 1973 is to and links of the people operating in Libya as insurgents? protect civilian life, which is what we have been achieving. Otherwise we shall be accused of picking favourites. I Had we not passed that resolution and acted on it urge my right hon. Friend to make every effort to continue quickly, the loss of civilian life would have been dramatically both his encouragement for democracy strengthening greater, and the humanitarian crisis with which we and our sitting on the sidelines, while also being vigilant would now be dealing would also be dramatically greater. about the human rights of the civilians in Libya. Even at this stage, the achievement of those things in the last 11 days is something that people of all points of Mr Hague: It is very important that it is the people of view should be able to welcome. Even the hon. Gentleman Libya who determine their own future. That is very might say a word of welcome about the way in which clear, and my hon. Friend underlines the point. We are people’s lives and human rights have been protected. not trying to determine the future Government. It is clear that the ITNC has brought together a wide spread Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I too congratulate of groups and figures in the opposition and that they the Foreign Secretary. Being a bit more of an optimist genuinely represent the opposition forces in Libya at than the shadow Foreign Secretary, I strongly welcome present, but that is not to say that exactly that combination the vision of a democratic Libya published by the of people would turn out to be the future Government interim transitional national council. Does the Foreign of a free Libya. As my hon. Friend says, we will not pick Secretary welcome in particular its commitment to winners, but we will support an open process of political intellectual and political pluralism, the rights and transition in Libya. empowerment of women and the rights of minorities, and what practical steps are we taking to build the Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): The ITNC’s capacity for democratic government? Foreign Secretary presents quite an upbeat picture, but what assessment has he made of the Deputy Prime Mr Hague: I certainly join my hon. Friend in welcoming Minister’s observation that the current action could that statement. It includes other provisions as well as well result in the creation of a hostile Islamist Government those he mentions, and the ITNC has given much time in Libya? and serious thought to it. It is not a rushed document: ITNC members have debated it among themselves and Mr Hague: It is very important that not only in prepared it carefully. I encouraged them to publish it Libya, but in north Africa as a whole, the UK and the yesterday because I think it showed, alongside the London European Union take the bold and ambitious approach conference, that it is the people of Libya who will lead that I described earlier, in order to act as a magnet for and decide their own future. It is a very encouraging positive change—for civil society, open political systems, document in that regard. Our diplomatic contact with the building up of small and medium-sized enterprises, the ITNC, including the visit of our diplomats there on and all the other building blocks of democracy—but we Monday and Tuesday of this week, has included looking cannot guarantee the outcome, of course. That is why at how we can support it in developing capacity for, and we must make sure Europe provides a very big and ideas about, securing democracy and a free society in effective magnet for those changes. If we fail to do that, the future. Developing such links will be a prime objective not just Libya but any of the other countries in the of the further missions we are now planning to Benghazi. region could become breeding grounds for terrorism and extremism. I think we should be on the optimistic Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): Why cannot the side of this situation in which millions of people are Government be clear about not rearming the insurgent seeking greater freedom, openness and democracy, but groups in Libya now that the NATO commander has we should also be alert to the dangers if they do not testified to the US Senate that he cannot rule out succeed in getting those things. infiltration by al-Qaeda or other terrorist groups? As an historian, the Foreign Secretary knows that in the 1980s Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): I strongly another ally—America—decided to arm Osama bin agree with the shadow Foreign Secretary and his measured Laden to get the Soviets out of Afghanistan, and now words, and urge extreme caution on my right hon. British troops are dying on the mountains of Afghanistan Friend. Would it not be a double win for al-Qaeda, and because of that error. Don’t repeat it. would we not start losing support in the Arab world, if 357 Libya (London Conference)30 MARCH 2011 Libya (London Conference) 358

[Mr Edward Leigh] Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab): I thank the Foreign Secretary for coming to the House we were seen to impose a solution on Libya and at the so promptly and giving such a full account of events at same time give arms to people who could prove to be the London conference, as he promised he would. A Islamist insurgents in the future? growing impression is being given as a result of his and the Prime Minister’s comments today—and Secretary Mr Hague: I can assure my hon. Friend that we will of State Clinton’s remarks yesterday—that we are edging not be engaged in imposing any solution on Libya. We our way towards arming the rebels in certain circumstances. will carry out necessary operations to implement the What are those circumstances? Also, since the Foreign UN Security Council resolutions, but we are not in the Secretary and the Prime Minister have said that that business of imposing a solution, or a Government, on would, in the Government’s view, be legal, presumably Libya. Indeed, if we were, we would lose that wider the Attorney-General has given a view on it. As far as Arab and regional support, of whose importance he many of us are concerned, either we must go back to rightly reminds us. the UN—I am sure the Foreign Secretary would not relish that prospect—and get a clarification of what has Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Everyone been called the dense text of the resolution or, at a would like to see the end of Gaddafi and his regime; minimum, the Attorney-General’s legal opinion on the that is not in question. It is a murderous regime, and has circumstances in which we might arm the rebels should been for 42 years; that is not in doubt. However, has the be sought and published. Foreign Secretary noticed that there have been more critical voices today than at any time since the situation Mr Hague: The Government’s understanding of the in Libya started? There are such critical voices both legal position is the one that I have set out: it lies in the here and on the international scene because, despite exact words that I used earlier. The Prime Minister used what the Foreign Secretary has been telling us, there is a the same words, and I used similar words on the television growing impression that the coalition forces are, in fact, last night. That understanding is, of course, based on involved in regime change, which is totally outside the the Attorney-General’s views. As an experienced Member terms of the resolution—and, indeed, outside international and former Minister, the hon. Gentleman knows the law. position on Government publication of the legal advice, although he also knows that we have been more forthcoming Mr Hague: I would defy the hon. Gentleman to find about that than has sometimes been the case in the past. any action taken by the coalition that is not in line with The advice that I have given to the House—the statement the UN Security Council resolutions. Everything we of the Government’s position—is very much based on have done is in line with those resolutions. That was the legal advice and can be taken as the Government’s endorsed by everybody at the conference yesterday, and definitive view on the matter. that will remain the case. The extreme care being taken to avoid civilian casualties is very clear, and a great Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): Will the Foreign contrast to the behaviour of the Gaddafi regime. It is Secretary note that I am glad to hear that the Government important that we constantly underline these points in have moved somewhat since my exchanges with the order to get that message across to the wider world, as Prime Minister a week last Friday, when resolution 1973 well as in our own country, and the Government will was published? May I also say that we cannot have it continue to do so. both ways, and that the Sanctions Committee is also Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): In light of involved in this? Have any suggestions been made to reports that rape is being used as a weapon of war by approach it with a view to ensuring that what is done is Gaddafi’s forces, and the appalling recent incident of legally done, in accordance with the best legal advice? the arrest of a rape victim who dared to speak out, can the Foreign Secretary give us more information on the Mr Hague: As my hon. Friend will understand, we aspect of the political programme announced by the are not proposing, at this point, to change our policy on ITNC addressing how the voices of Libyan women will this. If we did so, we would want to be absolutely be heard and how they will be active participants, given satisfied that that was not only advisable but legal. We that UN Security Council resolutions 1325 and 1880 would need to be sure of that and able to assure the make it very clear that involving both men and women House of it, so I will bear his advice in mind. is essential for successful post-conflict peace building? Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): During Mr Hague: My hon. Friend draws attention to one the debate in this House on Monday of last week, very well-publicised case of recent days that has shocked Members on both sides expressed their concern about the whole world, and there are reports that such treatment mission creep. That concern has been heightened by of women by the Gaddafi regime is much more widespread. today’s debate on potentially arming the rebels. Does That is another indication of the regime’s absolute the Foreign Secretary agree that if the impression is disregard for, and lack of any understanding of, human given that NATO-led forces are taking sides in what is rights. As our hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham becoming a civil war, that will be deeply counter-productive (Martin Horwood) pointed out earlier, it is a good sign to the cause of a lasting peace? that a commitment to women’s rights and the involvement of women is in the ITNC’s vision for a democratic Mr Hague: I will put that in a slightly different way, Libya. That is in a culture and a country that does not which is that it is very important to stick to the UN have a strong tradition of women in leadership roles, resolution. I think that that is at the heart of what the but let us hope that it will be a characteristic of a future hon. Lady is saying, and it is very strongly the view of freer Libya. the Government. Although NATO is providing the 359 Libya (London Conference)30 MARCH 2011 Libya (London Conference) 360 command and control, it is clear that Arab nations are Mr Hague: Yes. Yemenwas not the subject of yesterday’s also taking part in this operation and many others conference, although, as the right hon. Gentleman can support it. After all, the whole of the Arab League, with imagine, it was the subject of some of our discussions in only one dissenting voice, called for a no-fly zone and the margins. Certainly Secretary of State Clinton and I the protection of civilian areas in Libya. As I assured discussed Yemen, among other subjects, in the morning. the House earlier, we will always act in a way that We continue to look for the various parties in Yemen to maintains that broad international support. We are settle their differences peacefully. We do not want to see certainly not engaged in any mission creep. We are civil conflict in Yemen or the collapse of all authority in engaged in the protection of civilian areas, the enforcement Yemen,which really would raise the much greater spectre of a no-fly zone, the delivery of humanitarian aid and of a terrorist threat to the United Kingdom on a vastly the enforcement of an arms embargo. That is what we greater scale than anything we have discussed in the set out to do, and that is what we are continuing to do. House so far this afternoon. The British Government are heavily engaged in this situation and our ambassador James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): in Sana’a, in particular, is doing an outstanding job in The Foreign Secretary talked about the British diplomatic giving very good advice and conveying all the views of mission to Benghazi. Does he agree that Britain can this country to the President and to the other various play a leading role there in building necessary links and factions involved in Yemen. So we are doing our best to thinking through issues associated with a post-conflict use our good offices to bring about a more peaceful democratic settlement? situation there.

Mr Hague: Yes, we absolutely can. We have diplomats Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): May and development advisers who are very well placed to I commend the work that my right hon. Friend the do that. As I have mentioned before, doing that across Foreign Secretary has done on Libya and the London the whole of north Africa in a way that is not patronising conference? May I also commend the work of our to the countries involved but which brings genuine armed forces, whose skill and expertise has meant that expertise in the building up of civil society and political there has not been a single case of civilian injury, which pluralism is an important part of our role. is incredible? Can he confirm that we may use our armed forces to deliver humanitarian aid to Libya—if we are not already doing so—and thus make sure that Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): My colleagues and I we are supporting civilians as much as possible? fully support resolution 1973, but the reinterpretation of it in respect of arms to the rebels does suggest Mr Hague: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. We have mission creep and is in danger of shattering the political not, so far, been using our armed forces to deliver consensus. It has been suggested in some quarters that humanitarian aid, although contingency planning done the rebels have also asked for British troops to help with by various nations includes the ability to do that. However, training. Can the Foreign Secretary give us a cast-iron it is better, if at all possible, to deliver humanitarian aid assurance that there will be no British troops on the in a way that does not get that aid involved in the ground in Libya in any circumstances? conflict that is going on in Libya. So we are trying to get that aid in by supporting other organisations and by Mr Hague: Let me reassure the hon. Gentleman some direct deliveries from our allies. As the Secretary somewhat on that point. He knows that the UN resolution of State for International Development made clear at is clear that there must be no occupying force in Libya his Department’s Question Time, that has enabled us to or any part of Libya. Let me give him further reassurance: provide essential supplies for a very large number of in my meetings with the interim transitional national people already. council, the opposition in Libya, they have not asked for our troops to go to train them, and we are not doing Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): What assessment that at the moment. For the reasons that I gave in the have the Government made of the risk of civilian House last week, I will not exclude our ever having any casualties if the insurgent forces were to get to Tripoli forces of any kind anywhere, in small numbers, on and start fighting, street by street, for control of the Libyan soil, because we have already had to do that: in capital? What likelihood is there that the political track order to rescue our nationals from the desert a month would create some kind of solution and a ceasefire ago, we had to send the RAF and special forces into before that situation arose? desert locations. Circumstances can arise in which such limited operations have to take place, but there will be Mr Hague: Obviously, what we are hoping for and no ground invasion of Libya and no occupation of looking for is a genuine ceasefire—that is what the Libya, and the request to which the hon. Gentleman whole world wants to see. If the Gaddafi regime would refers certainly has not been made to me. accept that on the terms that I was discussing earlier with the right hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): At this important South (Mr Alexander)—it should not be difficult to do and successful conference what discussions took place that—we would have a ceasefire and everybody would about the situation in Yemen? As the Foreign Secretary be able to proceed from there. All I can say about the knows, Libya has 6 million people whereas Yemen has opposition forces and the danger of civilian deaths 23 million people, and a state of emergency was declared from their activities is that, so far, we have no record of there last week. When he last came to the Dispatch Box their being engaged in attacks on civilians. For one he promised to continue the dialogue with Yemen’s thing, they have not made frontal attacks on civilian president and people. Is there not a role for the international areas and, for another, where they have managed to community to play to ensure that that continues? gain territory they have generally been welcomed by the 361 Libya (London Conference)30 MARCH 2011 Libya (London Conference) 362

[Mr Hague] Mr Hague: I must be clear with my hon. Friend, as I have been with other hon. Members, that our military local people. It is certainly part of the beliefs of the mission is defined by the United Nations resolution. As opposition that in most of the western towns and cities one or two Members have pointed out, neither the of Libya there would be a very strong welcome for the mission nor the resolution includes regime change. Yes, opposition forces. So they have avoided civilian casualties we think Gaddafi should go, as does any rational person in their own operations so far, and we look to them to on earth—it is impossible to see a viable future for his continue to do so. country while he remains there—but in our military activity we will stick absolutely to what is laid out in the Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): I appreciate UN resolution. that my right hon. Friend might need to be careful with his answer to this question. Given the news from Misrata of further attacks on civilians, can he give an estimate Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): I note that the Foreign of the munitions supplies and military capability that Secretary has not told us how much of the Gaddafi remain available to Gaddafi and of the effectiveness of hardware now being targeted by coalition forces was the blockade of munitions from land and sea and by provided by those countries in the first place. He also air? knows that in the debate of 21 March the Government clearly resiled from calls to arm the rebels and offered Mr Hague: I will have to be a bit careful with my assurances regarding regime change and questions about answer. Clearly, events such as the attack by coalition the future governance of Libya. They also told us that aircraft on a major ammunition storage depot in the there was international consensus on a clear and focused early hours of Monday will have made a difference to interpretation. Does he agree that those interpretations the ammunition supplies of the Libyan regime. It is very have been moving and varied since then, and is not the difficult to quantify that, but it will have made a significant spin shift of the past 10 days evidence that the Government difference. Equally, the successful attacks on regime and the coalition are struggling to defy gravity and are vessels that were seeking to blockade Misrata yesterday being sucked into mission creep? will have made a significant difference to their ability to blockade that city. It is not possible to put a precise Mr Hague: No, that is entirely wrong. I wish the hon. statistical estimate on the things my hon. Friend is Gentleman could have come along to the conference asking for, but one can say with a fair degree of confidence yesterday. If he had, he would have seen the degree of that, if it had not been for coalition activity, the citizens international support—indeed, unanimity—about these of Misrata would by now have sustained many, many things, which is quite extraordinary for an international more casualties. Indeed, it is entirely possible that the event involving such a varied group of nations from city would have been taken over by regime forces, with both sides of the Atlantic and around the middle east. desperate consequences for many of its inhabitants. That international consensus has been strengthened, the international focus on the UN resolution is as Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): The Foreign strong as it was at the beginning and our commitment Secretary says that coalition and British forces should to operate within it is as strong as it was at the beginning, follow the letter of the UN resolution, and indeed the so we are not engaging in any mission creep. resolution of the House, but are they doing so? Reports coming out of Libya suggest that we are supporting offensive actions by the rebels, and there are mixed Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): messages about regime change, including from the First, may I congratulate the Foreign Secretary on the Government Front Bench. Does he accept that there way in which he has handled the overall situation? Will will be a breakdown in the broad consensus either in the he clarify one point about the UN resolution’s mention UN or in this House if there is not clear evidence that of protecting civilians under attack in Libya, “including only humanitarian and protective ambitions are being Benghazi”? Why expressly mention Benghazi and not achieved? Misrata or Zawiya?

Mr Hague: No, I do not accept any of the premises of Mr Hague: That is a fair question. The mention of the hon. Gentleman’s question. What we have just seen Benghazi is a product of the days in which the UN at the London conference is a serious broadening and resolution was drafted and agreed at the UN Security deepening of support for what we are doing under the Council, when the most specific threat to the largest United Nations resolution and I have stressed the number of people was to the civilian population of importance of maintaining that. He can be sure that Benghazi. My hon. Friend will remember that at that British forces and our allies are acting entirely within time the Gaddafi forces were advancing rapidly on it, so the UN resolution and I am not aware of anyone who is when the resolution was agreed it was easy to put able to bring to the House any evidence that they are Benghazi in it. As he knows from reading that paragraph, doing anything other than that. He would do well to its provisions apply to all the other civilian-populated support our forces in the difficult job they are undertaking areas of Libya; the inclusion of Benghazi was not rather than to entertain the idea that they are doing meant to exclude any other areas. something different.

Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): Although there Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): is widespread agreement that Gaddafi has lost all legitimacy, May I press the Foreign Secretary to say something it is increasingly unlikely that he will step down voluntarily. more about the contact group, specifically the size, Apart from the no-fly zone, what does the coalition frequency of meetings and the ministerial level at which force propose to bring an absolute end to the conflict? those meetings will take place? 363 Libya (London Conference)30 MARCH 2011 Libya (London Conference) 364

Mr Hague: The membership of the group will be eastern part of Libya as a major factor in that or a decided in the coming days. Clearly, as Qatar is hosting major area for the recruitment of such people. As I say, the next meeting and we will co-chair it, we will work it would be most accurate to place the accent on the closely with the Qataris on the membership of the positive and democratic side of the opposition in Libya contact group, which will need to be internationally rather than on any other side. agreed. It should certainly include international organisations such as the Arab League, the Organisation of the Islamic Conference, the United Nations, the EU Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): May I High Representative and the African Union if they strongly and respectfully disagree with my right hon. want to be associated with it, and it also needs to and learned Friend the Member for Kensington include key nations from both sides of the Atlantic and (Sir Malcolm Rifkind)? The UN resolution is not some from the middle east and north Africa region. It will law that has passed through a Bill Committee of the need to include at least a dozen nations—perhaps a few House of Commons; it is a contract between us, Germany, more—to be of a size that can be cohesive and able to Brazil and India. We should be very, very careful not to work together. I envisage it meeting for the first time push the letter of the law, but to stick to the spirit of within the next two weeks, certainly. We will be represented that resolution. If anyone is to arm the rebels, may I at senior ministerial level, which means by me or the respectfully suggest that Britain should not be in the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth lead? Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), if I have duties elsewhere. I Mr Hague: My hon. Friend makes some powerful think it will be a very useful and important group for points. He is right that in looking at a UN resolution the high-level political oversight of the whole work of one must bear in mind not only the precise words with the coalition. which it was drafted but the circumstances in which it was agreed and any understanding at the time, and we Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): I thank my right hon. shall certainly do so. Friend for his mojo on Libya. Given what my hon. Friends the Members for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) and for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) have said Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Foreign about the terrible treatment of civilians in Libya and Secretary for his statement. It is clear from television about the prisons and torture there, did my right hon. pictures that a humanitarian catastrophe is waiting to Friend have any discussions yesterday with the other happen—no water, no electricity, no food, medical supplies countries about bringing to justice those who are dwindling, and people queuing up at the hospital for perpetrating war crimes, particularly about ensuring treatment for those who have been injured, shot or that Gaddafi is not allowed to go into exile but is blown up by the other forces. What steps has the right brought before the International Criminal Court? hon. Gentleman taken to ensure that technical support is given to civilians in Libya so that they can resume some normality in their lives? Mr Hague: We have had those discussions all along. As my hon. Friend knows, there is a reference to the prosecutor of the ICC in resolution 1970—the first of Mr Hague: We are giving a lot of support. We are the two resolutions passed on these matters. Just as we giving financial support to organisations that are involved remain strongly attached to the implementation of in supplying such aid. We have provided a specific resolution 1973, we are also firmly committed to the amount of supplies for up to 100,000 people, as my implementation of resolution 1970 and we want people right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International to know that we are not going to be advocates of Development indicated earlier. We have other projects impunity for those crimes. under way to support the bringing of direct help to some of the people in the most desperate situations. Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): May I pay However, the hon. Gentleman will understand that I tribute to the work that our servicemen and women—the cannot announce in advance what they are in case the RAF and the Navy—are doing once again on our Gaddafi regime tries to prevent them, but he can be behalf and the way in which they are carrying out those assured that we are giving a lot of attention to the issue. operations, minimising civilian casualties? We endorse the careful and cautious approach of the Foreign Secretary and the Government because of the concerns about Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): I, too, warmly al-Qaeda. Will the Foreign Secretary address the issue welcome the news that there have been no civilian that was raised earlier about the role of fighters from casualties so far as a result of the action that we have eastern Libya in Afghanistan and elsewhere? What taken, which is a testament to the skill and delicacy of knowledge can he bring to the House about that and our pilots. The Foreign Secretary will be aware that the the role of al-Qaeda links in Libya today? closer the fighting gets to the urban centres in the west of Libya, particularly around Tripoli, the harder it will Mr Hague: I am grateful, as the whole House will be, be to avoid civilian casualties as a result of fighting on for the reaffirmation from all sides of support for the the ground and from the air. work of our armed forces. The right hon. Gentleman is I urge the Foreign Secretary to hold robust conversations quite right to refer to that, but I cannot give him specific with the Arab League and other regional players to information about people in eastern Libya fighting in ensure that we know where the tipping point is between Afghanistan. As he knows, there are fighters in Afghanistan air action to support civilians and air action in support on the Taliban side drawn from a wide area around the of offensive ground action by the rebels, because it is a world, but it would not be accurate to represent the grey area— 365 Libya (London Conference) 30 MARCH 2011 366

Mr Speaker: We are extremely grateful to the hon. Points of Order Gentleman, but we have a lot of business today. I call the Foreign Secretary. 1.43 pm Mr Hague: To give a brief answer to conclude, the Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): On a point of best way to put it to my hon. Friend is as follows. We order, Mr Speaker. This relates to unparliamentary retain the moral and international standing, particularly language by the Prime Minister, which is why I was keen because of the extreme care that we take to minimise—to to make a point of order before he left the Chamber. I avoid—civilian casualties. That must continue throughout apologise if I appear a little over-insistent. I believe that the operation. The purpose of the operation is to protect I heard the Prime Minister accuse me of being misleading, civilians. It cannot be part of its purpose to inflict which is unparliamentary language. damage or death on civilians, so whatever the situation, however it develops over the coming days or weeks, we Mr Speaker: I can deal with the point very simply. I will continue to take that extreme care. am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. The short answer is that nothing unparliamentary Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the Foreign Secretary was said, but for the benefit of the hon. Gentleman and and colleagues for their succinctness. of the House, let me make clear what a lot of hon. Members know, but some perhaps do not. To accuse someone of misleading the House is unparliamentary and a breach of order. The use of the word “misleading” in the way in which the Prime Minister used it is not unparliamentary or out of order. That is a statement of fact, and I hope that it is helpful both to the hon. Gentleman and to the House.

Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. There has been some confusion about the use of iPads and other electronic devices both in the Chamber and in Committee, particularly the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill Committee. Will you advise the House of the conclusions of the Procedure Committee on the use of such devices?

Mr Speaker: I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order and for giving me advance notice of it. I shall deal with this briefly, and in two parts. First, my guidance on the courtesies and conventions of the House states that the House has agreed to the use in the Chamber of hand-held devices to keep up to date with e-mails, provided that they cause no disturbance. All such devices may be switched on as long as they are in silent mode. Members should not use electronic devices as an aide memoire in debate. Secondly—and the hon. Gentleman referred to this—the Procedure Committee reported last week on this matter and the House will soon want to debate its report. In the meantime, I do not think that the occupant of the Chair can reasonably prevent a Member from discreetly using such a device as an aide memoire in debate. Members should remember to send any notes, electronically or not, to Hansard. I hope—I reiterate this forcefully—that the House will soon reach a view on this in order, apart from anything else, to assist the Chair.

Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In an earlier exchange with the Prime Minister, the hon. Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin) seemed to imply that he had leaked information about a cancellation or compromise of the crisis loans scheme. Will you advise me on how we can get accurate information on this matter, as it has been raised on the Floor of the House?

Mr Speaker: I have a feeling that the hon. Lady’s expectations of the scope of my powers are unrealistic, however generous-spirited they might be. It is extraordinarily 367 Points of Order 30 MARCH 2011 368 good of her to think that these matters are within my Alcohol Marketing compass, but I fear that unless I am gifted with talents that I do not possess I am unlikely to be able to satisfy Motion for leave to introduce a Bill (Standing Order her demands on this front. More widely, I would say No. 23) very simply to her that hon. Members are responsible for their own statements, and if she wishes to follow up 1.49 pm the matter with the hon. Member in question she is welcome to do so. Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): I beg to move, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to introduce measures to Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and reduce the exposure of children to the marketing of alcohol Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. products; to make provision to establish the permitted content of Is it in order for the Prime Minister to claim again today marketing of alcohol products; and for connected purposes. that the Government have embarked on the biggest About 13 young people will die this week as a result work programme since the great depression? As you of alcohol, and about 650 this year. Nearly a quarter of will be aware, Mr Speaker, there was no meaningful all deaths of young people aged between 15 and 24 are work programme during the great depression, but what caused by alcohol. That is two every day—far more we did have in the 1930s was mass unemployment than are killed by knife crime or cancer—yet this tragic presided over by a Tory-Liberal coalition. loss from alcohol attracts far less by way of a response. These totally avoidable deaths are just the tip of the Mr Speaker: I may disappoint the hon. Gentleman, iceberg and do not begin to represent the full scale of but I state the truth when I say two things. First, the the harm caused by alcohol to children. Prime Minister was in order and, secondly, in his attempted Alcohol blights lives, with criminal records as a result point of order, the hon. Gentleman was not, but he has of violent and antisocial behaviour, and it results in put his concerns on the record. educational failure. Regretted and unprotected sex raises the risk of unwanted pregnancies and sexually transmitted Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): On a point infections. Around 7,500 children are admitted every of order, Mr Speaker. May I draw your attention to the year to English hospitals alone as a result of acute arrangements for debates organised by the Backbench intoxication, and that figure does not include the carnage Business Committee on Tuesday 5 April, which are in our accident and emergency departments. excellent? I think that all hon. Members will welcome There are many contributing factors and no simple the changes that have been brought about. However, I solutions. Ultra-cheap alcohol and saturation availability note that each Member participating in the general still need to be tackled, but we also need a change in our debate will receive drinking culture. The Bill aims to tackle one of the root “a substantive written reply from the Department to the points causes of that culture, and there is a clear evidence base raised unless they are dealt with fully in the Deputy Leader of the to support it. Youth culture is heavily influenced by House’s reply.” marketing and our children are saturated by alcohol Who will make that adjudication? Let us hope that it is advertising. Despite the clear evidence of harm—only a matter for the Chair. Denmark and the Isle of Man have higher levels of binge drinking and drunkenness in their schoolchildren— Mr Speaker: Of course, it is a matter for individual the European school survey demonstrated that our Members of the House to decide whether they have children have the most positive expectations of alcohol received a good reply. In fairness, and in the presence of of any children in Europe and were the least likely to the deputy Leader of the House, who has regularly feel that it might cause them harm. shown himself, not least recently, to be conscientious in Where do those positive expectations come from? responding to colleagues’ concerns, my hunch would be Let us just look at the scale of marketing in the UK. that if the deputy Leader of the House, whose antennae The estimated spend on alcohol marketing is around are sharp, sensed widespread dissatisfaction among £800 million, compared with the Drinkaware trust’s Members, he would want to respond to it. As for the funding by the industry of just £2.6 million. When right hon. Gentleman’s remarks about the work of the £307 is spent encouraging drinking for every pound Backbench Business Committee and of the Chair, my spent promoting sensible behaviour, the results are cup runneth over. I am extremely grateful to him. predictable. The World Health Organisation hit the nail If there are no further points of order, we come to the on the head when it said: ten-minute rule motion, for which the hon. Member for “In such a profoundly pro-drinking environment, health education Totnes (Dr Wollaston) has been patiently waiting. becomes futile.” The Portman Group, one of the main regulators of the industry, would have us believe that it runs a very tight ship and is effective in protecting children. That simply is not true. Our confusing and inadequate combination of legislation and industry self-regulation is not working. The report on alcohol by the last Health Committee highlighted the fact that 96% of 13-year-olds from a sample of 920 were aware of alcohol advertising in at least five different media, and between 91% and 95% were able to identify masked brands. Nearly half owned alcohol-branded products, such as clothing. Does that matter? 369 Alcohol Marketing30 MARCH 2011 Alcohol Marketing 370

[Dr Sarah Wollaston] alcohol marketing. I think we would all agree that those are designed specifically to appeal to young people. A systematic review of multiple studies looking at the Ofcom in its own research has demonstrated that for impact of alcohol advertising and media exposure on every five 24-year-olds who see an alcohol advert on adolescents—a study that reviewed many studies— television, there are four 10-year-olds who see the same concluded that increasing exposure to alcohol marketing advert. The industry will claim that these measures will encourages children to start drinking younger and to kill off sport and culture, and that advertising is designed drink more when they do. The Academy of Medical only to persuade people to switch brands. The same Sciences report “Calling Time” showed a consistent claim was made before the tobacco advertising ban. I correlation between consumption levels by 11 to 15-year- point out that France has managed a World cup and a olds and the amount spent on marketing. We can be European cup without any help from alcohol sponsorship. sure that, if alcohol advertising did not work, the industry Across the channel, the Loi Evin is backed up by would not pay for it. heavy penalties which have been imposed by the courts So many of the possible solutions to our binge-drinking and now act as a significant deterrent. May I ask that epidemic are incompatible with European law, so it is we stop putting the fox in charge of the chickens and rather refreshing to hear that France has found a way have a clear statutory code to protect our children? The forward. In 1991, in response to saturation inappropriate Government could adopt this measure very quickly. I marketing, the French introduced a measure called the am pleased to see the Under-Secretary of State for Loi Evin. This law has been repeatedly challenged in the Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, the hon. Member European courts and has been upheld as for Wantage (Mr Vaizey) in the Chamber today. I call “proportionate, effective and consistent with the Treaty of Rome”, on him to meet me to discuss further how we could implement the measure in the Government’s alcohol which all Members would agree makes a pleasant change. strategy. Alcohol was a serious problem in France. In 1960 the French were consuming over 30 litres of pure alcohol The coalition has staked a great deal on talking about per capita per year. Consumption is well under half that outcomes. If we are serious about outcomes such as figure now. I accept that French levels of alcohol reducing health inequality, reducing violent crime and consumption were falling before the Loi Evin was domestic violence, improving the life chances of our introduced, but the French have managed to sustain children and reducing teenage pregnancy, we must stop that decline and the long-term trend continues to be talking to the drinks industry, with its vested interest in downwards. That is partly because their young people increasing drinking, and start listening to those with are no longer exposed to a continuous barrage of insinuating real expertise in preventing alcohol-related deaths. Not and pervasive messages about alcohol. so much big society, perhaps, as big sobriety. I am not suggesting a retreat to the nanny state or a ban, but we should aim to protect children, especially as 1.58 pm there is clear evidence of their exposure to marketing and the consequent harm. We currently have an absurd Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): It will come as no situation where advertisers are not supposed to link surprise to my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes drinking with social or sexual success or portray drinkers (Dr Wollaston) that I object to the Bill in principle and as youthful or vigorous, but they can regularly sponsor in practice. Despite her best efforts to suggest otherwise, major sporting and youth events, such as T in the park. it is clearly an attempted extension of the nanny state, The Bill aims to reduce the exposure of children to the of which we have had far too much already. It is gesture harmful effects of alcohol marketing by setting out politics to try to appease the health zealots in this what advertisers are allowed to say and where they can country, most of whom cannot be appeased anyway. say it. Rather than the current confused cocktail of I accept my hon. Friend’s point that the British legislation and self-regulatory codes, let us switch to Medical Association found that 96% of 13-year-olds something that works. are aware of alcohol advertising. However, I dispute the The Bill would permit the promotion of alcohol in inference that that leads them to go out and drink. media that adults use. That would include the print After all, many 13-year-olds are probably well aware of media, where at least 90% of readers are adults rather car adverts, but that does not mean that they all go out than children, radio after 9 pm and films with an driving as a result of watching them. All the research 18 certificate. It would allow advertising at the point of has shown the exact opposite. When young people were sale in licensed premises and at traditional producer asked what was most likely to influence people under events, so it would not penalise, for example, west the age of 18 to drink alcoholic drinks regularly, 67% said country cider makers or small Scottish distilleries. In the influence of friends, 56% said the availability of these media, advertisers would be permitted only to drink, just 5% said TV advertising, and only 3% said make factual and verifiable statements about their products, sponsorship. such as alcoholic strength, composition and place of If we accept this policy, where will it end? All sorts of origin. Every advert would also carry an advisory message products are bad for us if taken in excess. Cream cakes about responsible drinking or health. are undoubtedly bad for us if we partake of them in Any other marketing or promotion not specifically excess, as are pizzas, chocolates and curries. Does my permitted would therefore be banned, and this would hon. Friend propose to come back at a future date to include television, social media and youth-certified films. ban the advertising of cream cakes, pizzas and curries, The Bill would specifically prevent the growing threat or anything that happens to be bad for us? This is the from viral phone marketing and ploys such as “advergames” start of a very slippery slope, and one that I am not on the internet, where so-called games are a cover for prepared to go down. 371 Alcohol Marketing30 MARCH 2011 Alcohol Marketing 372

The Bill would do enormous damage to sports clubs. Furthermore, the aim of the Bill is not evidence-based. It is estimated that alcohol companies spent between The argument is that it will reduce drinking levels £150 million and £200 million a year sponsoring sport among younger people, but that has not been proven by alone, including many amateur sports teams. Without any research evidence. If any such impact did exist, it that sponsorship it would be difficult for those clubs to would be outweighed by other factors, such as the continue. We have the rather ludicrous suggestion that family environment. In fact, a study, “The Impact of we should for health reasons attempt to try to stop the Alcohol Marketing on Youth Drinking Behaviour”, advertising of alcohol, the only consequence of which found that would be to stop lots of people being able to take part “no association was found between uptake of drinking and in sporting activities, which is presumably something baseline awareness of alcohol marketing or number of brands the health lobby wants to encourage. The Minister for recalled at baseline…no association was found between uptake of Sport and the Olympics reiterated that point when he monthly drinking at follow-up and baseline awareness of alcohol stated: marketing”. “I know both from my own experience of growing up playing Professor Hastings actually completed a longitudinal sport in Kent and my work as a constituency MP that the study to try to measure the impact of alcohol marketing sponsorship offered by alcohol companies to community sports on 13-year-olds in the west of Scotland. He found no clubs brings a considerable number of benefits, both financially association between awareness of alcohol marketing at and in kind. This allows sports clubs to reach out to more people age 13 and either the onset of drinking or the volume of or improve their offer in a way that would not otherwise be alcohol consumed two years later. Surprisingly, that possible.” part of the study received very little publicity. I object to the Bill in principle, but even the people The lack of evidence is also apparent if we look at who accept it in principle must recognise that it is international comparisons. Norway has strictly no completely unnecessary. It is a solution looking for a advertising for alcoholic beverages, yet consumption problem. Alcohol already cannot be sold to anyone has been steadily increasing. In Italy, where alcohol under the age of 18, so if my hon. Friend is concerned advertising is permitted, consumption is decreasing. about young people drinking alcohol, surely the solution France is also an interesting case, as it is the example on to the problem is to stop anyone selling it to them. That which my hon. Friend bases her Bill. The equivalent Loi law already exists. Evin Bill was introduced in France in 1991, but it has The UK already has a comprehensive framework of not had the intended consequences that she would have regulation that makes the Bill completely unnecessary. hoped for. Statistics from the World Health Organisation The Advertising Standards Authority has an established show that French alcohol consumption decreased from regulatory system, the Portman Group provides its own 18.46 litres per capita in 1981 to 14.88 litres in 1991. code of practice and Ofcom regulates TV programme Since the Loi Evin was enacted, consumption has levelled sponsorship. The current alcohol advertising rules were off, dropping to only 13.24 litres, highlighting the fact tightened in October 2005, in response to the alcohol that the legislation has had little, if any, impact. harm reduction strategy, and they were reviewed again in 2008, taking into account the latest evidence The Bill smacks of the nanny state and would set a commissioned by the Department of Health, and were dangerous precedent for future legislation. It would subject to a full public consultation in 2009. The rules damage an already fragile amateur sporting club base already state that adverts must not target under-18s; be without any evidence-based proof that such a change in shown around programmes that especially appeal to the law would reduce youth alcohol consumption. There under-18s; link alcohol with seduction, sex or social are less burdensome means by which we can reduce success; link alcohol with irresponsible, anti-social, tough underage drinking, such as enforcing existing laws on or daring behaviour; show alcohol being served the sale of alcohol to under-18s and to do what the irresponsibly; show people drinking and behaving in an Government should be doing, which is highlighting the adolescent or juvenile way or reflecting the culture of health implications of drinking alcohol and allowing people under 18-years-old; or be shown in publications people to make up their own minds. In a free country, aimed at under-18s or where more than 25% of the that is what we should believe in. This is a further readership is under 18. extension of the nanny state to try to appease health zealots and fanatics who will never be appeased. Additionally, alcohol adverts already cannot be shown around programmes popular with young people, such Question put (Standing Order No. 23) and agreed to. as “The Simpsons” and “Ugly Betty”, even if the Ordered, programmes appear after 9 pm. The Portman Group That Dr Sarah Wollaston, Mr Kevin Barron, Tracey also introduced a code in 1996 that regulates all drinks Crouch, John Pugh, Stephen Gilbert, Paul Flynn, Mr David marketed in the UK through its code of practice on the Amess, Chris Bryant, Kelvin Hopkins, Mike Wood, naming, packaging and promotion of alcoholic drinks. Anne Marie Morris and John McDonnell present the Its code is so rigorous and highly regarded that the Bill. better regulation taskforce described it as a good example Dr Sarah Wollaston accordingly presented the Bill. of how effective self-regulation can be, and the International Harm Reduction Association includes the code within Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on its leading 50 global alcohol harm reduction initiatives. Friday 9 September, and to be printed (Bill 176). 373 30 MARCH 2011 374

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill (Programme) (No. 2) Bill

[1ST ALLOCATED DAY] 2.8 pm Consideration of Bill, as amended in the Public Bill The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Committee Herbert): I beg to move, That the Order of 13 December 2010 (Police Reform and New Clause 4 Social Responsibility Bill (Programme)) be varied as follows: COMMENCEMENT OF PART 1 1. Paragraphs 4 and 5 of the Order shall be omitted. ‘The Secretary of State must not make an order to bring 2. Proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading shall be sections 1 to 103 of this Act into force until— concluded in two days. (a) an inquiry by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary 3. Proceedings on Consideration shall be taken on each of into the impact of the introduction of police and those days as shown in the following Table and in the order so crime commissioners in England and Wales has been shown. completed, and 4. The proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) (b) the Secretary of State has considered the recommendations be brought to a conclusion at the time specified in the second of that inquiry.’.—(Vernon Coaker.) column of the Table. Brought up, and read the First time. First day 2.10 pm Proceedings Time for conclusion of Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab): I beg to move, That proceedings the clause be read a Second time. New Clauses and amendments 6.00 pm to Clauses, and new Schedules Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): With this and amendments to Schedules, it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government relating to Part 1 amendments 6 to 10, 12, 13, 15, 20 and 14. New Clauses and amendments 7.00 pm to Clauses, and new Schedules, Amendment 134, clause 156, page 102, line 24, at end relating to Clause 152 insert— Second day ‘(2A) Commencement of Part 1 of this Act is subject to Clause Proceedings Time for conclusion of [Commencement of Part 1].’. proceedings Amendment 135, page 102, leave out line 27. New Clauses and amendments 3.00 pm Government amendments 31 to 40, 135A, 136 to 138, to Clauses, and new Schedules, relating to Part 2 42, 50 and 51. New Clauses and amendments 5.00 pm to Clauses, and new Schedules Vernon Coaker: It is very good to be reunited with and amendments to Schedules, many of the members of the Committee who did such relating to Part 3 and Clauses sterling service upstairs. It falls upon us now to scrutinise 149 to 151; remaining the Bill on Report, to consider the various improvements proceedings on Consideration that the Government will seek to introduce and—from 5. Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously the Opposition’s perspective—to continue to point out concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption the Bill’s various deficiencies. on the second day. As hon. Members will have seen, new clause 4 states that the commencement order for clauses 1 to 103 The programme motion allows two days of debate on should not be brought into force until an inquiry into the Bill. That was not sought, but the Government felt the impact of the Government’s arrangements, which that it was right to offer it to give sufficient time for will be given effect in England and Wales by the Bill, debate. We had eight days of debate in Committee and has been completed. In other words, the provisions a full discussion of the issues. Having two days will should not be brought into force until we have begun to allow police and crime commissioners to be debated. understand what the impact of police and crime Time will be allowed specifically to debate universal commissioners will be. Obviously, we would ask Her jurisdiction, and tomorrow there will be time to debate Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary to conduct the alcohol, drugs and protest in Parliament square. The inquiry, and that before commencement the Home Secretary motion was revised to take into account the views of the has to consider the recommendations. The Minister Opposition expressed through the usual channels, so I knows that we oppose the introduction of directly hope that it will be acceptable to the House. elected police and crime commissioners, which constitute the major part of this part of the Bill, and we will Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab): It would be churlish continue to do so. I seek again to persuade hon. Members not to recognise the fact that the Government have across the House of some of the deficiencies we see in provided an additional day’s debate. We are grateful for the Bill, and hence of the need for us to calm down, row that. Notwithstanding the time we have, the issue is that back and consider what is happening and what the the Bill raises so many issues that lack clarity, but no Government are proposing. doubt we will debate them this afternoon. As I have The Minister has provided no evidence of the need said, however, we are grateful for the additional day, for the change. In fact, the responses to the policing and and it would be churlish not to recognise that fact. crime White Paper, “Policing in the 21st Century” seem Question put and agreed to. to be a mystery. After nearly 900 responses to the White 375 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 376 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill Paper, all the Government did was publish a summary best. He accused others of being elitist, but if everybody of them—they did not publish any of them. I challenge is saying that the Government have got it wrong, there him again to publish all 900 responses. I have a sneaking might be an element of truth in it. suspicion that had those 900 responses been in favour of the introduction of police and crime commissioners, we Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): The would not have seen him for dust as he moved to hon. Gentleman asked for an example of a council that publish them. He would have published them with a supports the reform. My council—Medway council—of fanfare of glory, called a press conference and said to which my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham and everyone, “Look, the introduction of police and crime Rainham (Rehman Chishti) is also a member, has supported commissioners supported by me, the Prime Minister the reforms, and our council leader, Rodney Chambers, and a couple of other people and whipped through the has been a strong proponent, with me, of direct election House of Commons is supported by these 900 people. for those who oversee our police. Surely the key thing, No need for an inquiry. No need for anyone to be however, is that the electorate voted for it. The Lib concerned.” However, he did not do that; he published a Dems stood on a platform of direct election for police summary, on the grounds that it would be disproportionate authorities, and we stood on one of directly elected to go further. commissioners. We now have this compromise involving The silence from those who support the Government’s a panel. The APA commissioned an opinion poll that proposal is deafening. I do not know about other hon. showed that most people wanted direct election for Members, but I have not had people queuing up outside those who oversaw the police. my surgery, knocking on my door and telling me that Vernon Coaker: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman the introduction of police and crime commissioners is has cleared up the issue—there is one council in favour one of the foremost policies they want introduced in of the proposed changed across the country. However, I their communities. No doubt, the Association of Police disagree absolutely with what he said about the electorate Authorities would be among those to whom HMIC voting for this measure. The model in the Bill was not would want to talk in its inquiry. However—and I hope voted for by the majority of people. As he said, the that hon. Members have read the Committee model in the Liberal Democrat manifesto was completely deliberations—the Minister does not think that the different from the one in the Bill. He gave the game APA is worth listening to, because obviously it would away when he said, “Of course, in the coalition agreement, be opposed to anything that the Government put forward. there was a compromise”. Well, if there was a compromise, Clearly, given that the Bill seeks to abolish police authorities, it obviously happened after the election, not during the it is thought that there is not much point in listening to election, so I do not think that anybody actually voted the APA. for this model.

2.15 pm Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the key issue is about having Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I am following my elected people looking after policing? That was the hon. Friend’s arguments carefully. The new clause would common ground between our two parties. The outcome put a lot of responsibility on HMIC. Does he feel that it was not exactly as we would have liked, but it was a has the resources to deal with what he would have it balance between the two options. Does he further agree deal with? As we know, it published a report only that there is a problem at the moment, in that police yesterday on police numbers. Does he not think that if authorities do not represent those on district councils? we give it this responsibility, it would need the resources District councils do not have a direct input. In fact, to deal with it? does he think that police authorities, as they currently are, work well at all? Vernon Coaker: My right hon. Gentleman, who is Chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee, makes Vernon Coaker: I do not think that police authorities a reasonable point. Of course, there would be a resources are as bad as they are portrayed. There is some variation issue for HMIC that the Government would need to among them, but many do a reasonable job. Perhaps consider, but given the importance of the reform that they are not as visible as they might be, and perhaps the Government are seeking to introduce, and given people do not understand exactly what they do, but that the police themselves say that this would be the people such as the hon. Member for Rochester and biggest change to the policing model in this country for Strood (Mark Reckless), who sits on the Kent police centuries, I suggest to my right hon. Friend that it is authority, do a good job. incumbent on us to say to HMIC that we will ensure As for elections, let us say this. We can come forward that it has the necessary resources. with different models for this election or that election. The Local Government Association—I do not know However, as the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) whether the Minister has a higher regard for it than for will have heard me say in Committee, whatever the police authorities—is also totally opposed to the reform. arguments about direct elections, the Government’s model It is difficult to find a single council that supports it. is at totally the wrong level of accountability. I do not Surrey county council sometimes edges towards it, but get people queuing up at my surgeries to say, “Do you it is difficult to find many others. I would have thought know what, Mr Coaker? Nottinghamshire police’s counter- that if this were a great reform, the police would be terrorism strategy”—or its fraud strategy or trafficking coming forward and saying, “This will make a huge policy—“is wrong.” People come to my surgery to say, difference”, but of course they are not. The challenge, “Mr Coaker, we’re absolutely fed up with the kids at therefore, is to find the demand for the change. Local the end of our street,” or, “We’re totally fed up with the people are not demanding it, so who actually is? The drug dealing going on from cars in a car park down the Minister seems to be driven by a belief that he knows road.” I am sure that that is true for most hon. Members. 377 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 378 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill [Vernon Coaker] the policing model that we have had in this country for years, That neighbourhood, street-level accountability is “threatening the crucial political independence and non-partisanship what people want, which is why, to be fair to the hon. of the police and the Rule of Law itself.” Member for Cambridge, his party proposed elections at Yesterday, Liberty published the results of a survey a very local level. Whether that was the right model or conducted on its behalf by YouGov, which showed the the wrong model, if we are looking at where we need to lack of public trust in elected police commissioners. In strengthen accountability arrangements, it is precisely answer to the question “Who would you trust more to at that neighbourhood and street level where we need to protect your family from crime?”, 65% chose “A Chief strengthen accountability arrangements. We can have Constable reporting to a Police Authority, as now” as neighbourhood policing, community meetings, beat their preferred option. “A Chief Constable reporting to meetings, and so on—all the things that have happened an individual politician elected as a Police and Crime in a calm and measured way, and which have made such Commissioner” was the preferred option of just 15%. a difference to confidence at that level. Just to show that that goes across the length and breadth of the country, I found out that a survey had been Dr Huppert: The hon. Gentleman will be aware that conducted in Hampshire showing that only 5% of the we have discussed that idea in another venue, along with public there support having a single elected police and how important ultra-local policing is and how it is crime commissioner. different from governance at a higher level. However, I am trying to understand where he is heading. In Committee That is just the sort of evidence that any inquiry he proposed directly elected chairs of police authorities, would have to look at. However, the Government’s so I am glad that he now prefers the Lib Dem model—I response is simply to stand back and pretend that those do not remember him saying that before the election, people are all dinosaurs who would inevitably say that, but it is nice to hear that he is moving in our way. Why because they are looking to protect their own interests, does he think that having a directly elected chair of a when in fact they are trying to say to the Government, panel would be so different from having a single directly “Youneed to slow down a bit and look at the consequences elected person who would also act across a whole area? of what you’re trying to do.” All the Minister says is, “We believe it’s the right thing to do.” I have said to him Vernon Coaker: We are opposed to directly elected before that, with respect, simply asserting that something police and crime commissioners as set out in the Bill. is the case is not the same as arguing the case. Where is Having said that, the Bill will presumably go through— the evidence for this change to policing, which will unless Government Members vote against their own make such a fundamental difference to governance Whip—so then what should we do? The proper and arrangements? responsible thing to do is to acknowledge that fact and propose another model—the hon. Gentleman will have Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): Does the seen our amendments. If we are to have a directly hon. Gentleman recall saying when he was Police Minister: elected individual, then as well as saying that we are “only direct election, based on geographic constituencies, will opposed to that in principle, what we as a responsible deliver the strong connection to the public which is critical,” Opposition should do is say how we would improve it. and if so, did he have any evidence for saying that? The amendment that we moved in Committee—the hon. Gentleman knows this, but I am repeating it for Vernon Coaker: The model of policing governance the benefit of other Members—would have made that that we were considering at that time was exactly the directly elected individual the chair of the police and sort of model that I was describing to the hon. Member crime panel, and thereby would have introduced proper for Cambridge. We were looking to see whether direct checks and balances in the system. elections at a neighbourhood and local level would lead The proposal that we are putting before the House to improved governance arrangements, but let me say today offers another way forward. What we are saying this to the hon. Gentleman. When all those people lined is, “Keep them as two distinct entities”—that is, have a up to oppose the idea, I took the view—as did the police and crime commissioner as a figurehead, but also Home Secretary at the time—that if everybody opposed have a police and crime panel with significantly enhanced something that we were trying to do, we should sometimes powers. These are all things that, with a proper inquiry step back and reflect on whether we had got it wrong and proper research, we could check to see whether they and whether, in all honesty, we should change direction. might be more appropriate, but I will tell the hon. Some say that that is a sign of weakness or not knowing Gentleman this. If he was stood where I am and he was what we are doing, but we cannot have it both ways. We opposed to something that the Government of the day cannot propose to do something, have a public consultation were doing, he would say that he was opposed to it, but and then say, “We don’t care what the public consultation he would also seek to improve and adapt it, to take says. If we disagree, we’re not going to take any notice.” some of the edge off. That is what we did in Committee What the hon. Member for Northampton North (Michael and that is what we are doing now. Ellis) described was something that was proposed at the It is not just the Opposition; hon. Members will no time to deal with governance issues, but it was also doubt have read Lord Imbert, the former chief constable something that we withdrew because we listened to of Thames Valley police and a former commissioner, what people were saying. setting out his opposition in The Times today. He will We could look at other issues, but I will leave the not be alone, although it is easier for him, as a non-serving evidence there. Any inquiry that HMIC conducted would police officer and a noble Lord, to say why he is need to consider a range of other matters, but the opposed. He says: Minister—and others on the Committee, given that we “If passed unamended, this Bill will undermine” did not manage to carry the day—had no concerns 379 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 380 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill about politicisation. We will come later to the debate on respect of which the hon. Gentleman has tabled an operational independence and the code of practice—it amendment, but again with a three-quarters majority. was a memorandum of understanding, but it has now That is it. become a protocol. Whatever: the serious point is that, The Minister will say, “The panel has to be consulted, given that the Government have agreed to the protocol, referred to and involved,” but how can it be right that they must be worried that having a directly elected there will be a police and crime commissioner, without individual who is responsible for policing in an area anybody able to do anything about what he does, providing risks politicising the role of chief constable. Many obviously that what he does is within the law? people have raised that issue at great length with us. Then we come to the huge number of representations about the size of the area that that one person will have 2.30 pm to cover. Again, the Government do not think this is a There are real worries about the issue, again dismissed problem. They say, “Oh, there’s no problem with this; by the Government, but if somebody is elected and has it’s fine,” but there is no evidence to support that, and a mandate in a particular area, what will the nature of that is why the House should adopt the new clause so that mandate be and who will decide how that area that we may have an inquiry and the HMIC can look ought to be policed? The Association of Chief Police into the matter. Officers, which is concerned about the lack of checks The Welsh Local Government Association points out and balances in the proposed model, released a statement that the system in Wales works very well, and it does not yesterday saying that believe that replacing between 17 and 19 members of “our professional judgment is that an effective framework of the individual police authorities in Wales safeguards is essential to improving the Government’s ambition without creating substantial threat to the impartiality of police “with a single elected commissioner will…improve public officers making decisions, such as the deployment of resources. accountability of the police”. Our professional view is that creating effective safeguards for The association does not believe that one individual can such a radically different accountability regime is extremely challenging. In any event, the developing framework of safeguards is too properly reflect all undeveloped and uncertain, and in several respects too weak, to “the divergent communities that exist in police force areas”, be confident that it will effectively ensure that this Peelian principle”— and it cites the huge area of Dyfed Powys, where one the Peelian principle to which the association referred individual will cover the whole area. before— “will not be compromised.” We can cite other examples. The Avon and Somerset area covers 1,855 square miles, from Thornbury to That is a fairly strong statement from the most senior Yeovil to Minehead. It has a population of 1.6 million police officers in this country about the lack of checks and large rural areas such as Exmoor, major urban and balances, and about their concerns regarding areas such as Bristol and Bath and significant market politicisation in the Bill. towns. One individual will represent all those areas. That police authority area and one or two others that I Mark Reckless: ACPO, the hon. Gentleman tells us, will mention across the country all point out the difficulty, has suggested that there are issues with checks and and we should listen to them. balances in the new system, but is not the real issue in the current system, with the lack of checks and balances on both the Home Office and the chief constable, and Simon Hart (Carmarthen Westand South Pembrokeshire) with the weakness of the police authority leg of the (Con): As the only representative from the Dyfed Powys tripartite process? Is it not right that we do something, area here, may I ask the hon. Gentleman whether he such as introduce direct elections as proposed in the agrees that there is very little connection between the Bill, to bolster the power of that third, local, democratic voters in our area and the general policing priorities? pillar? The indication that I get, which I wonder whether he agrees with, is that an elected police commissioner for Vernon Coaker: Nobody has said that the existing the Dyfed Powys area is in fact likely to bring us closer system is absolutely flawless or does not need improving. to the policing process, rather than removing us from it. I said to the hon. Member for Cambridge that it is That is the feeling that I, as the only representative from important for police authorities to improve their visibility, the area that the shadow Minister cites, get. but I suggest to the hon. Member for Rochester and Strood that we are discussing the Government’s proposals Vernon Coaker: I do not see any evidence for that at for the future. If ACPO tells us that the Bill’s checks and all, and there have been no such representations. On the balances are simply too weak, should we not then say, situation that the hon. Gentleman mentions, people in “We need to look at this, think about it and try to Dyfed Powys, in other parts of Wales and throughout understand what we should do to further improve the the country have a problem getting police at a system that we want”? neighbourhood level to deal with the issues that they The Minister gets very upset when I say this, but I am think are important, and that is why in Dyfed Powys going to say it again. The police and crime panels are and other areas throughout the country, through the one way in which the police and crime commissioner is introduction of neighbourhood policing, panel meetings supposed to be held to account, but the panel is a and town and village hall meetings, people want completely toothless watchdog with no real power. It accountability improved at that very level. I fail to has two vetoes: one on appointments, as the hon. Member understand how one individual representing that huge for Rochester and Strood knows, but only with a three- area will be able to do that. The hon. Gentleman knows quarters majority; and the other on the precept, in the area far better than I do, but how will somebody in 381 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 382 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill [Vernon Coaker] changing the system in London to that in the rest of the country—we are completely changing the system in St David’s, in that beautiful part of the country, know London to another system. about that and then be able to compare it with something The inquiry would also need to look at the arrangements 40 or 50 miles away? between a police and crime commissioner and the local We talked about moving an amendment in Committee democratic framework. One of the great successes of to require this one individual to attend all the parish the current policing arrangements has been the introduction and ward meetings in an area, so that they really had of the neighbourhood policing model, with the development local and detailed knowledge. These are huge issues, of community safety partnerships in Wales and crime and one person will simply not be able to do the work. and disorder reduction partnerships in other parts of Police authority after police authority has made that the country. Those arrangements have brought together point to us. all the various partners at a local level in order to try to tackle crime and improve confidence. The police and Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): I was fortunate crime commissioner is not a responsible authority under enough to sit in Committee with the hon. Gentleman, the terms of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998. and I am sure he recalls the evidence given on 19 January What, then, is the relationship of the police and by Ian Loader, a professor of criminology from All crime commissioner with the police and crime panel? Souls college, who said: Again, we do not understand that, and the Bill is “We have gone through a decade or so of trying to run the unclear about it. I have referred to the complete lack of police from 10 Downing street, and a broad move to try to power that a police and crime panel has, leaving an reorganise the police under the rubric of local democratic omnipotent individual in charge of policing. Police and accountability seems to me to be important.”––[Official Report, crime panels will have one person from each local Police Reform and Social Responsibility Public Bill Committee, 19 January 2011; c. 47, Q 5858.] authority—if there are not 10 authorities, we can make up the number with another couple—and a couple of That runs exactly counter to the hon. Gentleman’s independent members. If there are more than 10 local argument now. authorities, we can have a few more so that we stick to the basis of one person per authority. There is no Vernon Coaker: My point is that the system the reference to how many people might be in that local Government are seeking to introduce will not deliver authority area or to its size—the reference is just to one the improved accountability that we want. The hon. person per authority, so it could be a tiny district Gentleman does not agree, as I said in Committee, but, council and a massive local authority area. My hon. to return to the point I was making, at least he has tried Friend the Member for Houghton and Sunderland to use a piece of evidence—a small piece, but a piece South (Bridget Phillipson) mentioned Northumbria, none the less. Where is the massive amount of evidence which is a huge area covered by one council and a very that contradicts all the evidence that I have brought small, highly populated area covered by another. forward? The Government made great play of evidence- based policy when they came into power, and the main driver of our new clause is that an HMIC inquiry would Dr Huppert: Does the hon. Gentleman think it is allow policing experts to collect evidence to understand right that under the current system district councils whether these improved governance arrangements would such as Cambridge city council have no representation lead to the improved accountability that we all want. on the police authority at all? The Devon and Cornwall, Cumbria, West Midlands Vernon Coaker: That is a fair point. We can, of and Greater Manchester police authorities all say that course, make changes and improvements to the current one person in charge of policing in their area will mean system. However, the point is that we are introducing far too much work. police and crime panels when we have not had a proper debate about what their constitution should be; we have Michael Ellis: Does the hon. Gentleman not agree merely said there should be one member per authority. that a good piece of evidence is the fact that such a The size of the district council area in terms of population system is already working in London? is not mentioned. These are clearly things that we need to understand. Vernon Coaker: First, if the system in London was working so well, why would the Government want to We have had numerous representations from people change it? Secondly, the change that the Government saying that they are concerned about this. Cumbria and are making is to a completely different system from that Surrey police have expressed their reservations. Cheshire—I which operates at the moment. The Metropolitan Police do not know if there is anyone here from Cheshire, but I Authority is being abolished. The person who, through might as well go round the country—says that the primary legislation, is going to be put in charge of police and crime commissioner policing in London through the Mayor’s Office for “must be able to influence relevant partners if their Police and Policing and Crime will be an unelected individual Crime Plan is to be effective in delivering improvements in community appointed by the Mayor of London. They will not be a safety and crime reduction. However, if the PCC is not a ‘responsible authority’ they have no statutory role and could, therefore, be directly elected individual as per the rest of the country, ignored.” but an appointee of the Mayor following the abolition of the Metropolitan Police Authority.The hon. Gentleman That is a serious flaw in the Bill that the Minister needs asked why, if the system works so well, we should not to address. expand it to the rest of the country. If the system in Another aspect that members of the Committee reflected London is working so well, why are the Government on, as would many others, is the cost of the introduction changing it? Why not just leave it as it is? We are not of police and crime commissioners. That will be a 383 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 384 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill particularly important area for HMIC to look at. Different Dr Huppert: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I police authorities across the country tell us that there apologise for being confusing; I was trying to be helpful. will be a significant cost involved. A police and crime It is a pleasure in many ways to continue the work commissioner will have people supporting them—a chief that we did on the Bill Committee with many right hon. finance officer, a chief executive and other staff. A and hon. Members whom I see around the Chamber. police and crime panel will presumably need resources These are slightly larger, grander surroundings than to be able to carry out its function properly. A chief those in which we had our last, rather extensive, discussions. constable will become a corporation sole—in other words, a legal entity—and able, unless the Bill is amended as the Liberals tried to do, not only to control staff but Michael Ellis: But about the same number of people. own property and assets and so will presumably need more staff to be able to do that. Dr Huppert: Indeed. We have had a fair discussion in Committee, and I am glad that we are continuing it. 2.45 pm The shadow Minister spoke about a desire for delay, The Association of Police Authorities said in a submission and I can understand why he sees that as his role. I am to us in January this year: sure that the Minister will respond to the detailed “Independent analysis suggests that the cost of the proposed points that he made. I was rather touched by the shadow reforms of police governance over the 5 years…will be a minimum Minister’s comment about how I would behave if I were of £453million. That is £101million more than the entire cost of in his position. He did not make it clear whether that running police authorities during the same period, and the equivalent was in a scenario where the Labour party had completely to the removal of over 600 police officers.” collapsed and was now a minor party, whether that had The Minister has stated that the new governance model happened to the Conservatives, or whether there was a should not cost any more than the current model, Labour-Conservative coalition. I am sure he can comment excluding, as he will no doubt say in his reply, election on that later. costs, but again, nobody out there accepts or believes that that will really be the case. Yesterday’s HMIC I want in particular to speak about Government report showed that only 5% of police officers and police amendment 14, which deals with a rather detailed point community support officers are in back-office roles. In raised in Committee by my hon. Friend the Member for looking into this, the HMIC will be interested to know Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart). It is a great pleasure what the costs are of the new governance arrangements, to see him in his place. He spotted that lines 4 and 16 on given that the police service finds itself facing 20% cuts page 22, in clause 30, did not quite fit together—that from central Government. It will want to know whether there was a drafting error. That led to an interesting this model will be real value for money. Will it add to discussion in which we genuinely explored some ideas—I the policing effectiveness in an area, or will the fact think we all learned a lot—about what should be the that 95% of police officers and/or PCSOs are not in process for suspending a police and crime commissioner, back-office roles be threatened by its introduction? These the standards and thresholds and the effects of such a are all huge issues with respect to the introduction of suspension. There is an interesting balance to be struck police and crime commissioners and police and crime as regards what should happen. The amendment corrects panels. the drafting error and leaves the provision that a commissioner may be suspended by the panel—I emphasise I will finish by going back to where I started. This that the term used is “may” rather than “must”—if reform is based on an ideologically driven, philosophical charged with an offence that could lead to a term in desire to introduce police and crime commissioners in prison of greater than two years. an untested, untried way, with no evidence, because the Minister and No. 10 believe that it will improve the Is the balance right? First, the position of police and effectiveness of policing in this country. I say to the crime commissioner is very responsible and we would Minister again: publish the evidence that shows that to not want to see a holder of it being seriously investigated be the case. There is none apart from that from the for a major crime, which would put them in a position odd—I do not mean that in a disrespectful way—council that would simply be untenable in the public eye. On the and one or two individuals. This is a hugely significant one hand, one could suggest that we should bring the change. The Local Government Association, the threshold lower and lower until, if we want to be Association of Police Authorities, chief constables, police absolutely sure, they would be suspended if they were officers, communities, individuals and many Members accused of anything. I think that would be going too of Parliament on both sides of the House see this as a far, and I shall come up with a suggestion on that point deeply worrying reform. The Minister needs to argue a bit later. his case rather than simply assert it. I commend new The flip side of the argument, however, is that such a clause 4 to the House. commissioner has been charged, not convicted. There is a clear difference and a clear principle. Members on Dr Huppert rose— both sides of the House mentioned in Committee that we should not punish people excessively based on the fact that they have been charged. There is the principle Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab) rose— of innocent until proven guilty that still applies to most public law—I shall avoid talking about terrorist offences Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. on this occasion. Clause 30(3) says that during a suspension Members have to stand if they want to speak—bobbing period, a commissioner does not draw their salary, their up and down like this does not help me. I call Julian pensions or their allowances. That is a punishment, in Huppert. effect. 385 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 386 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill [Dr Huppert] Dr Huppert: I had almost finished, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I shall do shortly. There was an interesting We had a number of discussions in Committee and debate in Committee about whether we wanted just to the Liberal Democrats have had some discussions about correct the drafting order or to go further— our proposals on the way forward. We have also discussed that with the Minister. There is the question of what Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. With respect, people offences we wish to catch. My hon. Friend the Member can read the Hansard report of the Committee. I have for Edinburgh West gave a number of examples of given the hon. Gentleman a great deal of latitude. I offences that would not be covered by the rules for the think he has come to the main point of what he wants possible suspension in the context of offences with to say, so if he could now conclude on that point it sentences greater than two years. I shall not go through would be helpful. every example, but they included racially or religiously aggravated assault or harassment, and I think we would Dr Huppert: I am happy to do so. I hope that the have concerns about a police and crime commissioner Government will consider what I have said as well as the who was charged with that. Other similar offences self-suspension ideas. include aggravated vehicle taking, causing damage to property and causing injury. Vehicle taking without Paul Murphy: I support new clause 4, the case for consent has a sentence of six months, as does assault on which was so powerfully made, characteristically, by my a police constable, as my hon. Friend pointed out. One hon. Friend the Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker). would have great concerns if a police and crime I hope that the House will divide on it. commissioner was being charged with assaulting police constables, particularly on a regular basis. That would I support the idea of deferring the commencement of suggest that the relationship was not working part 1. Later, there might be the opportunity to debate my amendment, which would exempt Wales from part 1, We must work out what to do. Our proposal—I hope but this is an opportunity to reflect on a less drastic that the Government will respond to it and will consider course of action—that is, the deferral of the commencement it as a way forward, and I look forward to hearing any of the Bill. There are one or two reasons for that and I other contributions—is that the period should be brought hope that the House will bear with me as I set them out. down from two years to six months, as suggested in the amendment originally proposed by my hon. Friend. It Not very long ago, the National Assembly for Wales should be specified that the charge should be carried took the unprecedented decision not to give legislative out by the Crown Prosecution Service—by a prosecutor— consent to part 1. That, in my experience—which goes rather than a police officer, as they have powers to back a few years in such matters—is entirely unprecedented. charge in some circumstances. We do not want police It has never happened before. As a consequence, the constables to be able to get at a commissioner with Communities and Culture Committee of the National whom they disagree over some issue. Assembly has asked for the deferment of part 1. Its headline recommendation reads: The flip side of bringing the threshold down to give greater public certainty is that there should be no loss of “We recommend that the Welsh Government has dialogue with the UK Government to persuade it to defer introducing pay, no loss of pension and no loss of other allowances those aspects of the bill related to the abolition of Police Authorities, that would be incurred in the job—the person might not and establishment of Police Commissioners and Police Crime be doing that job during that period, but there might be Panels in Wales, at least until the effectiveness of their impact in some ongoing costs. That would avoid excessive punishment England has been assessed.” while providing public certainty that a prominent figure That is not a million miles away from new clause 4, in such an area was not under a cloud and could not get which asks for the deferral of the commencement until out from under it. such an assessment has been made by HMIC. That is There should also be a provision, regardless of the why I support the new clause. threshold, for the commissioner to be able effectively to Policing, as the Minister will know, is not devolved in suspend themselves and to say that there is an allegation Wales, although it is in Scotland and Northern Ireland, against— but it is different in Wales from in England. I cannot see any evidence that there has been any sort of negotiation, Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. discussion or proper Government-to-Government May I remind the hon. Gentleman that we are discussing relationship on the issue of policing in Wales in so far as quite a narrow set of amendments? I am not sure that part 1 is concerned. There might have been, and doubtless he is on the point of what we are discussing now—that the Minister will let us know when he winds up. is, the new clause and the amendments that are being In Wales, there is a rather different relationship between debated and have been selected. the Welsh Local Government Association—to which my hon. Friend the Member for Gedling has already Dr Huppert: I was speaking about Government referred and which, incidentally, is not in Labour’s amendment 14, which I think is in this group. hands but is controlled by independents and non-Labour Members—police authorities in Wales, of which there Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman are four, and the Welsh Assembly Government. That said at the beginning—and this is my understanding—that relationship is very special because it touches on a that is a drafting amendment and a correction, yet he working partnership arrangement between the police seems to be making rather a substantial point of debate. authorities in Wales and the National Assembly that is If the Government have accepted a change by tabling unique in the United Kingdom. It seems proper to me their own drafting amendment, it normally follows that to repeat the arguments used in Wales by local government, it is quite minor. That was why I asked him. by the police authorities, by the National Assembly and 387 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 388 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill by the Welsh Assembly Government to ask for the emergency service. Our community is proud of it, feels commencement of part 1 to be deferred. One chief that it is part of it, and feels that it owns it. It is part of reason those bodies ask for the deferment is the fact the fabric and architecture of the community. People in that there are rather different financial arrangements in the community know only too well that if they pick up Wales for policing. Half of Welsh police forces get their the telephone, they will get a trustworthy and local money from the Welsh Assembly. response to what are often traumatic problems. The reason why I paint that little contextual picture is 3pm that Dyfed Powys police, to whom the shadow Minister In addition, the proposals for police commissioners referred, cover a vast and diverse area. The Minister is will inevitably be very expensive, as my hon. Friend not entirely unfamiliar with the area. The police force is said. I understand that only £30,000 per police force not devoted purely, as some would flippantly suggest, to will go towards meeting the gap in paying the salary of sheep rustling and stolen quad bikes. One in seven the police commissioners and paying for police and terrorist incidents in the UK have a connection to our crime panels. Over the next few years, Wales faces a constabulary. It has the onerous responsibility of looking reduction in its funding through the Barnett formula of after the UK’s most important energy hub in Milford nearly £2 billion. It is absolutely daft to introduce such Haven, which has two refineries, two liquefied natural highly expensive measures in Wales when, frankly, there gas terminals, and the biggest gas-fired power station is no appetite for them. under construction in Europe. It is an important strategic I read in the Official Report of the Public Bill Committee area, which our stretched police force has to look after. that the Minister said that there was evidence that in That is the reason for the great connection with the 2008 only 7% of people in England knew what police local community, which I would argue is not enhanced authorities did. There is a counter-issue in Wales, where under the current arrangements, but would be enhanced a survey that was taken much more recently than 2008 under the proposed arrangements. indicated that 82% of Welsh people knew precisely what police authorities did. That is because in Wales, we are Opposition Members may argue that I am simply different and we are smaller. trotting out the ideological prose as laid out by my elders and betters, but I consulted just three people in The final point that I wish to make—I know that preparing the comments that I am about to make: two other Members want to speak—is that the decision by police constables currently serving in the Dyfed Powys the Assembly not to give legislative consent to part 1 of force, and one rather more senior officer with whom I the Bill and the decision by a major Committee of the had a conversation at the weekend. The local police Assembly to ask for deferment of the commencement authority has—reasonably, sensibly and in a measured of the Bill place this decision on a rather different level: fashion—repeated the concerns that the shadow Minister it is now about the relationship between the United articulated. Kingdom Government and the devolved Administrations. A day or so after the general election, the Prime Minister The two police constables, without any provocation, came to Wales and talked about a respect agenda, in said to me, “At long last we’ll be able to do the job that which he would respect the views of the devolved we originally joined up to do.” I pushed them on this Administrations in Cardiff, Edinburgh and Belfast. It point, and their responses entirely endorse the Government’s seems to me that there is little respect in this measure, proposals. They endorse, welcome and encourage the unless we can get a positive indication from the Minister involvement of the local community. The crime panels, that there will be a deferment of part 1 as far as Wales is which are not directly related to new clause 4, will concerned. If that is not the case, I suggest to the provide the accountability that some suggest is missing. Minister that the Welsh Assembly Government will The involvement of local authorities and elected individuals invoke the Joint Ministerial Committee, which is in who are accountable to their wards and regions is a place to ensure that disputes are resolved between the crucial piece of this jigsaw. As was said by two police United Kingdom Government and the devolved constables and a more senior officer, whose rank I Administrations. Otherwise, in addition to what I think cannot reveal lest I give away his identity, that involvement is a deeply flawed measure, there will be an issue between will lead to improved prioritisation, which is in the two Governments in the United Kingdom, which we community’s interests; improved cost effectiveness, which definitely do not want. is vital in the Dyfed Powys force; and improved customer satisfaction—a phrase I hesitate to use. Simon Hart: I will restrict my comments to the impact of elected commissioners in west Wales, an area that In discussing cost and budget reductions in the coming has been referred to already. My comments are driven weeks and months, the senior officer was certain that not by ideology, as some have suggested, but by my Dyfed Powys police could maintain a decent police practical experience of the area, the reaction of police force that would safeguard the interests of the community officers both junior and senior, and, perhaps even more and businesses. However, he said that it would be different. importantly, the reaction of members of the public. It will not smell the same, and in many regards there The context to this debate is the ongoing consultation will be an entirely different form of policing from what about the future of the coastguard. One might wonder we have been used to. That does not mean that it will what the connection is, but it is simply that around compromise the safety of the community or that crime Milford Haven—the important waterway that divides will rise. Those ideas are being bandied about irresponsibly the constituency of Preseli Pembrokeshire from Carmarthen by mischief makers. The changes do not mean for one West and South Pembrokeshire—there is an enormous minute that people will sleep less safely in their beds; local attachment to and affection for that emergency quite the opposite. There is a realistic recognition that service, which might not immediately appear to be an things have to change, that they will change and that 389 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 390 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill [Simon Hart] Keith Vaz: I say to the hon. Gentleman, who has recently joined the Home Affairs Committee, that I was they will look different, but that those changes will totally exhausted. That was why I hoped we would have guarantee a reasonable cost-effective police force for a little break when the new Government got into office. our community. Members of the Committee who are in their places Only this morning in Prime Minister’s questions, as today—my hon. Friend the Member for Houghton and Members will recall, there was a suggestion that the Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson) and the hon. proposals will compromise safety and the interests of Members for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless) the communities and the many businesses that rely on and for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), and indeed the hon. police protection—particularly in Milford Haven. I really Gentleman himself when he is freed from the Protection would urge caution, because that is not the case. It is of Freedoms Bill Committee, on which he is currently irresponsible for Opposition Members to bandwagon, sitting—know that the change is rapid. I therefore have to make political statements and to suggest that the some sympathy with the Opposition Front Benchers’ proposals will damage the safety of our communities. proposal that there ought to be an impact study. Do not take this point from a lowly Member who However, I am not absolutely convinced that the best represents a distant part of west Wales that most Members, organisation to perform the impact study is Her Majesty’s I regret to say, have probably never heard of. As evidence, inspectorate of constabulary. I hope my hon. Friend the I put to the Minister the impassioned pleas of two Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) will convince me police constables and a senior officer in one of the of that by the time we get to the Division Lobby. I am forces that will be most affected by the proposals. They not sure where that organisation will fit in the new say that there is nothing to fear, and that with a reasoned landscape of policing. If my hon. Friend believes for approach and a sensible balanced debate we can produce one moment that a report by HMIC, even though it is an outcome that is in the interests not only of the under the distinguished leadership of Sir Denis O’Connor, Treasury, which always lurks somewhere in the shadows will unite the House or provide the basis for moving of these debates, but of our communities, which have forward, he can look at what happened to the report such great affection for their police forces, upon which that it published yesterday. Opposition Front Benchers they so permanently and reasonably depend. accepted it, but I caught a glimpse of the Minister on the BBC yesterday, and he did not necessarily accept Keith Vaz: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member the report. He may or may not have accepted part of it, for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon but as we all know, he certainly did not accept that Hart), who rightly put the debate in the context of what front-line policing would be affected. It was interesting is happening locally in his constituency. Every right to hear the Prime Minister’s views on that today. hon. and hon. Member can talk about the local impact My plea is that the enormous reform and challenging of the changes that the Government are making, but I agenda ought perhaps to pause for a short while, to will concentrate my remarks on new clause 4, and allow Parliament to consider in even greater detail what particularly on the desire of Opposition Front Benchers the Government are proposing. The Home Affairs that there should be an impact study of the Government’s Committee has published a report on police commissioners. proposals before they are put in place. We did not comment on the idea, because we took it as The Government have embarked on a very ambitious read that the Government wished to introduce them, and challenging policing agenda. I have just finished depending on the outcome of the Bill, which has yet to reading the speech that the Minister for Policing and be finally voted upon. We examined the implications Criminal Justice made on Monday, and he used in it the of what the Government planned to do once the memorable words: commissioners were in place. I am glad to see that the Government have accepted a number of the points that “Reform cannot wait; we do not have the luxury of delay while we made, particularly about clarifying the relationship a committee of wise men”— between the commissioners and the chief constables. slightly politically incorrect— We will discuss that in a later debate. “deliberate and eventually agree to differ.” My concern is that we are not stopping and thinking I am not sure whether the Home Secretary would clearly enough, even if we might want to go in the compose a committee of that type, but what the Minister direction that the Government suggest. The Home Affairs was saying was that the Government want to get on Committee examined the need for a study of the proposals, with reform. and obviously the most appropriate body to make one Those of us who serve on the Home Affairs Committee would have been the Committee itself. However, we have been pretty exhausted by the amount of proposed have been rushing to deal with each piece of Government legislation and the changes that the Government have legislation as quickly as we possibly can. I am not sure brought into effect since last May. However, one would that HMIC should produce the study, though. expect that from a Government who took office after My hon. Friend the Member for Gedling was one of 13 years in opposition. Of course Ministers, particularly the best Ministers in the last Government, and when he the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice, who I left the Home Office he had gained a huge reputation know has a passion for the debate on policing, want the for what he had done. He will correct me if I am wrong, Government to get on with what they want to do. but I am not sure that when the previous Government introduced radical changes they asked HMIC for an Michael Ellis: Was the right hon. Gentleman not also impact study or paused to allow other bodies to conduct exhausted by the 13 years of the previous Government inquiries. I can well remember, as Chairman of the and their 10 criminal justice Bills and 3,000 new criminal Home Affairs Committee, a proposal from the then offences? Home Secretary to replace police committees. Then, all 391 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 392 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill of a sudden, we received a letter saying that the Government It seems to me that the purpose of new clause 4 is to had changed their mind, having accepted in full our delay the enactment of the important part of the Bill recommendations on the subject. There is a danger in that will create directly elected police and crime picking the wrong organisation to undertake the study. commissioners. That has been expressed pretty openly. The point that I believe my hon. Friend is trying to The right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) was make in new clause 4, which is the right point to make, explicit about the fact that he sought that for Wales, so I is that we should stop and consider the matter, not that will seek to address that point. we should necessarily delay it. As I argued in my speech to the Institute for Public 3.15 pm Policy Research on Monday, which is on my website In his speech on Monday, in the section on reform, and which I am happy to send to any hon. Member—I the Minister was clear that he rejected the idea of a am grateful to the right hon. Member for Leicester East royal commission. He quoted Harold Wilson as saying for quoting it—I do not believe that there is time for that royal commissions are agreed in minutes and take delay, because the changes that we need to make to years. But the process need not necessarily take that policing are urgent. The democratic deficit must be long. The Minister has a close view of the nature of addressed, and there is a need to drive savings at local policing, and the Home Affairs Committee has started level more strongly than they have been driven before. a new inquiry, which I hope will not last longer than our We therefore need to undertake this reform. previous policing inquiry. We hope that it will last about Furthermore, if the Government signal any kind of four months. We will examine the nature of the new delay now, which the Government emphatically do not landscape and take on board what the public want and wish to do, we would create uncertainty, at a time when, need. subject to the further deliberations of the House and In his speech the Minister also spoke about the need the other place, others outside are preparing in the for the people, not the Government, to run the police expectation that the Bill will become law—the House force—he was citing the views of Ian Blair, the former gave a Second Reading to the Bill—and that the first Metropolitan Police Commissioner. There are many elections for police and crime commissioners will take stakeholders, including the Police Federation, the place in 2012. Association of Chief Police Officers, the superintendents, the public and many others, and they all need to be The Home Office has a transition board, which I consulted on the changes. chair, which includes all parties, including ACPO and the Association of Police Authorities. Those parties Because of the background to the discussion, which may not have proposed the Government’s measure, and we all accept is a cut of 20% in police finances—I mean they may not be wholly happy with it, but they nevertheless that we all accept that that is the background, not that sensibly recognise that it makes sense to sit down and we all accept the cut—this is a very difficult time for the discuss how the changes should be put into place. police service. I am sure the Minister will not accept new clause 4, but we are looking for words from him I want to emphasise that although the Government that will show that the Government understand the are determined to proceed with the Bill and its reform, need to pause. Perhaps there is not a need for a royal we have listened. I hope the hon. Member for Gedling commission lasting years and years, but there is a real (Vernon Coaker) accepts that we listened in Committee, need for a debate about what policing means to ordinary when I believe we had a constructive debate. We also people. That would be extremely helpful, including to listened to those outside—important views have been the Home Affairs Committee in its current deliberations. put to us—and to the Home Affairs Committee. We will We have not started our report yet, but we hope to come to debate what the Committee describes as the have it ready by the end of July. We hope that it will give memorandum of understanding to protect operational the Minister the opportunity to fashion his new landscape independence—we call it a protocol—but we agree that not from the top downwards, but starting with the it is a good idea. public and moving upwards. Sometimes we worry a We also listened to ACPO’s concerns on ensuring little too much about chief constables and the people that strategic policing is addressed despite the greater right at the top, and not enough about the police localisation expressed in the Bill. As a consequence, the constables. That is why it is was so interesting to hear Bill provides for the strategic policing requirement. We what the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South have also strengthened the powers of police and crime Pembrokeshire said. It is the bobby on the beat, the panels. The Government have listened and sought to neighbourhood police officer, on whom the policing address concerns, but we nevertheless remain committed reforms will have an impact. Let us start with them and to the introduction of police and crime commissioners, move upwards, rather than start at the top and move with the first elections in May 2012, although we could down. move sooner in London, which already has a Mayor. The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick The right hon. Member for Torfaen referred to the Herbert): First, I apologise to the Chairman of the National Assembly for Wales Communities and Culture Home Affairs Committee, the right hon. Member for Committee request for a deferment of the provisions Leicester East (Keith Vaz), for exhausting him. I look and asked whether the Government have held discussions forward, of course, to his inquiry. I very much hope that with the Welsh Assembly Government. I must reassure he will invite me to give oral evidence, but that is him that, right from the beginning, we have sought such entirely a matter for him and his Committee. I am sure discussions and to respect the devolved arrangements in that the Home Office will submit written evidence, but Wales. I have met the Minister responsible, as has the of course I welcome the inquiry, as I have welcomed all Home Secretary, and our officials have had a great deal his reports since he assumed the chairmanship. of discussion. 393 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 394 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill [Nick Herbert] When moving new clause 4, the hon. Member for Gedling made a number of wider points in which he The Assembly Government have made it clear that attempted to open up once again the arguments for and they do not favour police and crime commissioners, but against police and crime commissioners. I shall not of course, policing is a reserved matter, and the House dwell on those other than to say that he has expressed of Commons has decided that police and crime support in the past for the concept of a direct component commissioners should apply in England and Wales—that in police authorities, as was ably pointed out by my hon. is what the Bill says. The question is whether we can Friend the Member for Northampton North (Michael find arrangements that respect those aspects of the Ellis). devolution settlement that are within the competence of In addition, in Committee, the hon. Member for the Welsh Assembly. We sought to do that through the Gedling moved an amendment for directly elected chairs legislative consent motion that we tabled, which we will of police authorities, and the previous Government shortly debate further. twice proposed a democratic element. I accept that I very much regret that the Welsh Assembly did not there is a difference between that Government and this pass that motion, but I repeat that we have at all times one, but the difference is not that this Government do sought to address the Welsh Assembly Government’s not believe in democratic reform of police authorities—it proper concern, while recognising that it is equally appears that all parties do. Rather, the difference is that proper that the House of Commons decides on that the previous Government backed down twice, but we reserved matter. Saying that we must always follow a have no intention of doing so, because there was a request from the devolved Parliament or one of the Conservative party manifesto commitment, and as my Assemblies for a deferment is tantamount to saying that hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) the matter is no longer reserved. For so long as the pointed out, because having directly elected police matter is reserved, I believe that the right decisions have authorities was separately a Liberal Democrat manifesto been taken. commitment. We now know that the latest proposal from the hon. Paul Murphy: I remind the Minister that things are Member for Gedling is for directly elected chairs of not quite as simple as saying that policing is reserved. police authorities. In moving and voting for that Policing is of course reserved, but aspects of the Bill amendment, the hon. Gentleman wholly undermined touch on matters that are not reserved. Local government, his argument on cost, because implementation of directly which is wholly resolved in Wales, has a huge role to elected chairs of police authorities would cost not the play on the panels, so it is not quite as simple as he says same as police and crime commissioners, but more. it is. There is more room for negotiation with the Welsh Therefore, the most expensive proposal for democratic Assembly Government on those very important matters. reform of police authorities in the House of Commons is from the Opposition spokesman. What is wrong with proposed new clause 4—I agree Nick Herbert: I absolutely accept what the right hon. with the right hon. Member for Leicester East on this Gentleman says. Local government matters are not —is that it would put in the hands of the inspectorate of reserved and local government touches on the panels, constabulary the power to hold an inquiry, and thereby but that is precisely why we negotiated the legislative to delay implementation of the Bill. Constitutionally, consent motion. It is deeply unfortunate that despite that would be very difficult. It would place the inspectorate the fact that I negotiated that motion with the Minister in an invidious position. Parliament should decide reforms responsible, Carl Sargeant, and he agreed it, he did not of this kind, after taking into account the views of both vote for it. As I said at the time, I regret that, because it Houses and consulting widely. The idea that we can was self-defeating. The motion sought to put in place somehow park these matters into an inquiry by an the special arrangements for police and crime panels in independent body that is meant to look at the effectiveness Wales, on which the Welsh Assembly Government would and efficiency of policing is wrong. It would be very have representation. I emphasise to the right hon. wrong for that organisation to do that, as it would Gentleman that we really tried to reach an arrangement effectively set up the inspectorate as judge and jury on a and to respect the devolution settlement. decision that Parliament had made. We therefore believe that these measures are the right thing to do, and we Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): The point that intend to proceed with them. Nevertheless, we are listening my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul and will continue to do so. Murphy) makes is that the mechanism for election to In conclusion, on new clause 4, I would like to point police panels is a devolved matter, meaning that the out that, when the previous Home Secretary, the right Assembly is responsible. How does the Minister square hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough that circle? (Mr Blunkett) was proposing democratic reform of police authorities, he said that those who claimed to Nick Herbert: If I may, I will come to that matter have the power, and who wished to hold the power, when we reach that specific group of amendments, should therefore be accountable for the power. That is because the Government have tabled amendments to the right principle, and the basis on which we should address it. We must find a way to ensure that the Bill is proceed. consistent with the wishes of the Welsh Assembly, which it expressed in rejecting the legislative consent motion. I Keith Vaz: I do not wish to interrupt the right hon. shall address that question at the appropriate time, but I Gentleman’s peroration, but I want to make a point wanted to respond specifically to the right hon. Member about the timing of the election. During the course of for Torfaen. the inquiry, the Select Committee picked up some concern 395 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 396 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill about the election taking place in May next year, just Amendment 14 will correct an internal inconsistency before the Olympics, when people ought to be concentrating in clause 30, which deals with the suspension of a on security measures and related issues. Is the Minister commissioner. We noted the inconsistency in Committee. quite satisfied that this is the right timing? Clause 30(1) makes it clear that the threshold for suspension is that the commissioner has been charged with an 3.30 pm offence carrying a maximum term of imprisonment exceeding two years, but clause 30(4) incorrectly refers Nick Herbert: The right hon. Gentleman makes a to the limit as a maximum sentence of two years or genuine point. There are two answers. First, I have said more. The amendment ensures that those references are that the Government wish to move sooner in relation to consistent. I have noted the suggestions of my hon. London. The transition in London could therefore be Friend the Member for Cambridge for a better way to made before the elections in 2012. Secondly, the measures proceed on suspensions. We had a debate about that in relate to a change in the governance of policing. The Committee, and I suspect that the other place will Bill will not affect the police forces themselves. There return to the matter. The Government will pay attention are important changes being made, but this is principally to the concerns that are expressed. However, we are a change to the governance of policing. There should be clear that the current threshold is proportionate, striking proper discussion, to ensure that in the run-up to the the correct balance between protecting the public from transition the police authorities do not lose sight of criminals and not suspending the public’s representative such important matters and that the forces that they for trivial offences. hold to account do not do so either. The remaining group of Government amendments Amendment 15 will correct an inconsistent use of will not, I hope, be controversial. They are all of a language in the amendments that the Bill makes to the minor and technical nature, and I will summarise them Police Act 1996, reflecting the fact that a commissioner briefly now. Amendments 6 and 8 will clarify the wording will have the same function of maintaining the police of the Bill so that a commissioner—or, in London, the force in his police area as a police authority has now Mayor’s office for policing and crime—will be obliged under the 1996 Act. Amendment 20 will ensure that, to consult a chief officer of a force on a new or revised while members of a commissioner’s staff may be compelled plan only to the extent that its content is actually new. to answer questions and provide documents to a police At present, the wording of the Bill includes two repetitious and crime panel, they will not be required to divulge obligations to consult on the plan—for example, in advice that may have been provided to the police and clause 5, subsections (6)(b) and (8). It would make no crime commissioner. That brings the provisions on sense legally to compel such individuals to consult commissioners into line with the existing arrangements again on material that had already been discussed. I for the Mayor of London, which we are retaining while would expect such discussion to occur naturally and replacing the Metropolitan Police Authority with the when necessary between a commissioner and his chief Mayor’s office for policing and crime. Not doing so officer, so this new wording merely puts a duty on the would weaken a commissioner’s decision making power, commissioner to ensure that new content is drawn to as all discussions could potentially be subjected to the chief constable’s attention. Any more burdensome criticism, which would discourage the free and frank requirements would be needlessly bureaucratic and flow of ideas. prescriptive. I apologise to the House for going into such detail, Amendment 9 will bring the police and crime plan but I think that it is important to give the public clarity issued by the Mayor’s office for policing and crime into on the amendments. Amendments 31, 32, 38 and 39 concern line with other mayoral strategies, in regard to some of the appointment of a commissioner’s chief executive. the matters that the Mayor has to bear in mind when The current wording refers to a “qualified” person. drafting the plan. It is right that there should be a However, the Bill does not impose any qualifications in consistent and joined-up approach to the plan and the respect of candidates for appointment as chief executive—in other strategies. Amendment 10 will clarify the scope of contrast to the position of the chief finance officer, who the duty on commissioners and criminal justice bodies must be financially qualified in accordance with local to co-operate with each other. On the purpose of the government legislation—so there is no need to include co-operation, it replaces the word “in” with the word the word “qualified”. “for” in the phrase Amendments 33 and 40 correct a drafting error in which “so as to provide an efficient and effective criminal justice system references to the chief constable in amendment 33 and in the police area” the Metropolitan Police Commissioner in amendment 40 in relation to a commissioner’s responsibilities for criminal should have been references to the police and crime justice “for their force area”. This reflects the fact that commissioner and the Mayor’s office for policing and elements of the system such as a court or a prison that crime, respectively. Amendments 34 to 37 and 135 to are outside the geographical area of the force may still 138 are included to make references to police staff contribute to the criminal justice system inside the area. consistent with the rest of the Bill, which refers to them Amendment 12 makes it clear that the general bar on as “police civilian staff”. Amendment 42 is included a commissioner delegating the discharge of his functions simply to clarify the Bill. In its present wording, it is to another commissioner or a chief constable does not unclear what paragraph (2)5 of schedule 7 is referring prevent the delegation of functions in the context of a to when it uses the phrase “for these purposes”. The formal collaboration agreement. Amendment 13 will amendment makes it clear that this means the purposes correct a reference to the wrong subsection in the provisions of sub-paragraph 6. dealing with the delegation of the functions of the Amendment 50 will correct a minor drafting error in Mayor’s office for policing and crime to the Deputy relation to the replacement of the strategic policing Mayor for policing and crime. priorities with the Home Secretary’s new strategic policing 397 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 398 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill [Nick Herbert] This is a hugely important issue. As I said, the Association of Police Authorities, the Association of Chief Police requirement. It amends the section of the Police Act 1996 Officers, the Local Government Association, council that deals with policing objectives, which in future will after council and ordinary police officer after ordinary apply only to the Common Council of the City of police officer all oppose this measure. We have heard London in its capacity as a police authority, with the not a shred of evidence from the Government. That is effect that the Common Council will frame its objectives why we say there should be an inquiry so that we can so as to be consistent with the strategic policing requirement, take stock, reflect and reform on the basis of evidence, rather than strategic priorities. This will bring the Common not ideology. I therefore press the new clause to the Council into line with other policing bodies. It was our vote. intention to achieve that outcome, but the Bill as drafted Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. did not do so. Finally,amendment 51 changes a reference to “authorities” The House divided: Ayes 224, Noes 320. in respect of arrangements for the police negotiating Division No. 242] [3.41 pm board to “persons and bodies”. This is simply to reflect the fact that police and crime commissioners are replacing AYES the word “authorities”and it will no longer be applicable Abbott, Ms Diane David, Mr Wayne in this context. Abrahams, Debbie Davidson, Mr Ian Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Davies, Geraint Vernon Coaker: I thought the ending of that was Alexander, rh Mr Douglas De Piero, Gloria brilliant. Alexander, Heidi Dobbin, Jim Let me say in all seriousness to the Minister that he is Ali, Rushanara Dobson, rh Frank introducing a change to the model of policing in this Allen, Mr Graham Docherty, Thomas Anderson, Mr David Dodds, rh Mr Nigel country—the biggest change for centuries—without one Austin, Ian Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. shred of evidence that it is the right thing to do. In his Bailey, Mr Adrian Donohoe, Mr Brian H. response, we heard not one study cited, not one chief Bain, Mr William Doran, Mr Frank police officer quoted, not one police authority quoted, Balls, rh Ed Dowd, Jim not one council quoted—as I say, not one shred of Banks, Gordon Doyle, Gemma evidence in support. All the Minister did was repeat Barron, rh Mr Kevin Dromey, Jack what he has done before—stand at the Dispatch Box Bayley, Hugh Durkan, Mark and assert that he knows best. He accuses me of elitism, Beckett, rh Margaret Eagle, Ms Angela but I can see where the elitism lies when it comes to Begg, Dame Anne Edwards, Jonathan someone saying that they know best. This is no way to Bell, Sir Stuart Efford, Clive reform the police service; it should be done on the basis Benn, rh Hilary Elliott, Julie of evidence. Berger, Luciana Ellman, Mrs Louise Betts, Mr Clive Evans, Chris I have a couple of quick points. I agree with my right Blackman-Woods, Roberta Farrelly, Paul hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), Blenkinsop, Tom Field, rh Mr Frank the Chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee, Blomfield, Paul Fitzpatrick, Jim that Governments sometimes need to pause and look at Blunkett, rh Mr David Flello, Robert what they are doing. That is the purpose of the new Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Flynn, Paul clause. It invites us to reflect on the evidence and on Brennan, Kevin Fovargue, Yvonne what people are saying and then to legislate and reform Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Gapes, Mike on the basis of that evidence, not ideological commitment. Brown, Mr Russell Gilmore, Sheila My right hon. Friend may well think that there is an Bryant, Chris Glass, Pat alternative to Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary Buck, Ms Karen Glindon, Mrs Mary when it comes to who is best placed to carry out the Burnham, rh Andy Godsiff, Mr Roger report. Perhaps his Select Committee or other bodies Byrne, rh Mr Liam Goggins, rh Paul should be involved, but it does not alter the fact that, as Campbell, Mr Alan Greatrex, Tom Campbell, Mr Ronnie Green, Kate he says, we sometimes need to take stock and reflect on Caton, Martin Greenwood, Lilian how best to move forward and make change. Chapman, Mrs Jenny Griffith, Nia I also want to deal with what was said by my right Clarke, rh Mr Tom Gwynne, Andrew hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) Clwyd, rh Ann Hain, rh Mr Peter and the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Coaker, Vernon Hamilton, Mr David Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart). When the hon. Gentleman Coffey, Ann Hanson, rh Mr David goes back to his constituency, he should tell the people Cooper, Rosie Harman, rh Ms Harriet he has been talking to in his local authority and others Cooper, rh Yvette Havard, Mr Dai that, as my right hon. Friend said, proposals in the Bill Corbyn, Jeremy Hendrick, Mark mean that if local authorities do not nominate members Crausby, Mr David Hepburn, Mr Stephen for the police and crime panels, the Home Secretary will Creagh, Mary Hermon, Lady Creasy, Stella Heyes, David take it upon herself the power to impose individuals on Cruddas, Jon Hillier, Meg those panels. That is why my right hon. Friend and Cryer, John Hilling, Julie others from Wales are so upset by the proposals, which Cunningham, Alex Hodge, rh Margaret effectively drive a coach and horses through the devolution Cunningham, Mr Jim Hodgson, Mrs Sharon settlement. Yes, police and crime commissioners are a Cunningham, Tony Hoey, Kate reserved matter, but local authorities are a responsibility Curran, Margaret Hood, Mr Jim of the Welsh Assembly. That explains why there is such Dakin, Nic Hopkins, Kelvin upset and disquiet about the proposals in Wales. Danczuk, Simon Irranca-Davies, Huw 399 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 400 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill Jackson, Glenda Phillipson, Bridget Beresford, Sir Paul Field, Mr Mark Jarvis, Dan Pound, Stephen Berry, Jake Foster, rh Mr Don Johnson, Diana Qureshi, Yasmin Binley, Mr Brian Fox,rhDrLiam Jones, Helen Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Blackman, Bob Francois, rh Mr Mark Jones, Mr Kevan Reed, Mr Jamie Blackwood, Nicola Freeman, George Jones, Susan Elan Reeves, Rachel Blunt, Mr Crispin Freer, Mike Joyce, Eric Reynolds, Emma Boles, Nick Fullbrook, Lorraine Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Reynolds, Jonathan Bone, Mr Peter Fuller, Richard Keeley, Barbara Riordan, Mrs Linda Bottomley, Sir Peter Gale, Mr Roger Kendall, Liz Robertson, John Bradley, Karen Garnier, Mr Edward Khan, rh Sadiq Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Brady, Mr Graham Garnier, Mark Lammy, rh Mr David Rotheram, Steve Bray, Angie Gauke, Mr David Lavery, Ian Roy, Mr Frank Brazier, Mr Julian Gibb, Mr Nick Lazarowicz, Mark Roy, Lindsay Bridgen, Andrew Gilbert, Stephen Leslie, Chris Ruane, Chris Brine, Mr Steve Glen, John Lewis, Mr Ivan Ruddock, rh Joan Brokenshire, James Goldsmith, Zac Lloyd, Tony Sarwar, Anas Brooke, Annette Goodwill, Mr Robert Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Shannon, Jim Bruce, Fiona Gove, rh Michael Long, Naomi Sharma, Mr Virendra Buckland, Mr Robert Graham, Richard Love, Mr Andrew Sheerman, Mr Barry Burley, Mr Aidan Grant, Mrs Helen Lucas, Caroline Shuker, Gavin Burns, Conor Gray, Mr James Lucas, Ian Simpson, David Burns, rh Mr Simon Grayling, rh Chris Mactaggart, Fiona Skinner, Mr Dennis Burrowes, Mr David Green, Damian Mahmood, Shabana Smith, rh Mr Andrew Burt, Alistair Greening, Justine Mann, John Smith, Angela Burt, Lorely Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Marsden, Mr Gordon Smith, Nick Byles, Dan Griffiths, Andrew McCabe, Steve Smith, Owen Cable, rh Vince Gummer, Ben McCann, Mr Michael Spellar, rh Mr John Cairns, Alun Gyimah, Mr Sam McCarthy, Kerry Straw, rh Mr Jack Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Halfon, Robert McClymont, Gregg Stringer, Graham Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hames, Duncan McCrea, Dr William Stuart, Ms Gisela Carmichael, Neil Hammond, Stephen McDonagh, Siobhain Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Carswell, Mr Douglas Hancock, Matthew Cash, Mr William Hancock, Mr Mike McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Tami, Mark McDonnell, John Chishti, Rehman Hands, Greg Thomas, Mr Gareth McGovern, Alison Clappison, Mr James Harper, Mr Mark Thornberry, Emily McGovern, Jim Clark, rh Greg Harrington, Richard Timms, rh Stephen McKechin, Ann Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Harris, Rebecca Trickett, Jon Meacher, rh Mr Michael Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hart, Simon Mearns, Ian Turner, Karl Collins, Damian Harvey, Nick Miliband, rh David Twigg, Derek Colvile, Oliver Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Miller, Andrew Umunna, Mr Chuka Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hayes, Mr John Mitchell, Austin Vaz, Valerie Crabb, Stephen Heald, Mr Oliver Moon, Mrs Madeleine Walley, Joan Crockart, Mike Heath, Mr David Morden, Jessica Watson, Mr Tom Crouch, Tracey Heaton-Harris, Chris Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Watts, Mr Dave Davey, Mr Edward Hemming, John Morris, Grahame M. Whitehead, Dr Alan Davies, David T. C. Henderson, Gordon (Easington) Wicks, rh Malcolm (Monmouth) Herbert, rh Nick Mudie, Mr George Williams, Hywel Davies, Philip Hinds, Damian Munn, Meg Williamson, Chris Davis, rh Mr David Hoban, Mr Mark Murphy, rh Mr Jim Winnick, Mr David de Bois, Nick Hollingbery, George Murphy, rh Paul Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Dinenage, Caroline Hollobone, Mr Philip Murray, Ian Wood, Mike Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Holloway, Mr Adam Nandy, Lisa Woodcock, John Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hopkins, Kris Dorries, Nadine Horwood, Martin Nash, Pamela Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Onwurah, Chi Doyle-Price, Jackie Howarth, Mr Gerald Wright, David Osborne, Sandra Drax, Richard Howell, John Wright, Mr Iain Owen, Albert Duddridge, James Hughes, rh Simon Paisley, Ian Tellers for the Ayes: Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Pearce, Teresa Graham Jones and Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Huppert, Dr Julian Perkins, Toby Phil Wilson Dunne, Mr Philip Hurd, Mr Nick Ellis, Michael Jackson, Mr Stewart NOES Ellison, Jane James, Margot Ellwood, Mr Tobias Javid, Sajid Adams, Nigel Baldry, Tony Elphicke, Charlie Jenkin, Mr Bernard Afriyie, Adam Baldwin, Harriett Eustice, George Johnson, Gareth Aldous, Peter Barclay, Stephen Evans, Graham Johnson, Joseph Amess, Mr David Baron, Mr John Evans, Jonathan Jones, Andrew Andrew, Stuart Barwell, Gavin Evennett, Mr David Jones, Mr David Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Bebb, Guto Fabricant, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Bacon, Mr Richard Beith, rh Sir Alan Fallon, Michael Kelly, Chris Baker, Norman Bellingham, Mr Henry Farron, Tim Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Baker, Steve Benyon, Richard Featherstone, Lynne Kirby, Simon 401 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 402 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill Knight, rh Mr Greg Pickles, rh Mr Eric White, Chris Wilson, Mr Rob Kwarteng, Kwasi Pincher, Christopher Whittaker, Craig Wollaston, Dr Sarah Laing, Mrs Eleanor Poulter, Dr Daniel Whittingdale, Mr John Wright, Simon Lancaster, Mark Prisk, Mr Mark Wiggin, Bill Yeo, Mr Tim Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Pritchard, Mark Williams, Mr Mark Young, rh Sir George Latham, Pauline Pugh, John Williams, Roger Zahawi, Nadhim Laws, rh Mr David Raab, Mr Dominic Williams, Stephen Tellers for the Noes: Leadsom, Andrea Randall, rh Mr John Williamson, Gavin Mark Hunter and Lee, Jessica Reckless, Mark Willott, Jenny Jeremy Wright Lee, Dr Phillip Redwood, rh Mr John Leech, Mr John Rees-Mogg, Jacob Lefroy, Jeremy Reevell, Simon Question accordingly negatived. Leslie, Charlotte Reid, Mr Alan Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Robertson, Mr Laurence Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Ihavenowto Lewis, Brandon Rogerson, Dan announce the result of a Division deferred from a Lewis, Dr Julian Rosindell, Andrew previous day.On the question relating to local government, Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rudd, Amber the Ayes were 297 and the Noes were 187, so the Ayes Lidington, rh Mr David Russell, Bob have it. Lilley, rh Mr Peter Rutley, David Lloyd, Stephen Sanders, Mr Adrian Lopresti, Jack Sandys, Laura New Clause 5 Lord, Jonathan Scott, Mr Lee Loughton, Tim Selous, Andrew MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING Luff, Peter Shapps, rh Grant ‘(1) The Secretary of State must publish a Memorandum of Lumley, Karen Sharma, Alok Understanding on the Operational Responsibility of Chief Macleod, Mary Shelbrooke, Alec Constables detailing where their actions shall be independent of Main, Mrs Anne Simmonds, Mark the Police and Crime Commissioner. Maude, rh Mr Francis Simpson, Mr Keith (2) The Secretary of State may by regulations made by May, rh Mrs Theresa Skidmore, Chris statutory instrument bring into force the Memorandum of Maynard, Paul Smith, Miss Chloe Understanding published under subsection (1). McCartney, Jason Smith, Henry (3) Regulations under subsection (2) may not be made unless a McCartney, Karl Smith, Julian draft of the instrument has been laid before, and approved by a McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Sir Robert resolution of each House of Parliament.’.—(Vernon Coaker.) McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Soames, Nicholas McPartland, Stephen Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Brought up, and read the First time. McVey, Esther Spencer, Mr Mark Vernon Coaker: I beg to move, That the clause be Menzies, Mark Stanley, rh Sir John Mercer, Patrick Stephenson, Andrew read a Second time. Metcalfe, Stephen Stevenson, John Mr Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to Miller, Maria Stewart, Bob discuss the following: Mills, Nigel Stewart, Iain Milton, Anne Stewart, Rory Amendment 149, page 2, line 44, clause 2, at end Mordaunt, Penny Stride, Mel insert— Morgan, Nicky Stuart, Mr Graham ‘such that the police and crime commissioner shall have no Morris, Anne Marie Stunell, Andrew involvement in decisions with respect to individual investigations Morris, David Sturdy, Julian and arrests.’. Morris, James Swales, Ian Amendment 155, page 4, line 15, clause 3, at end Mosley, Stephen Swayne, Mr Desmond insert— Mowat, David Swinson, Jo Munt, Tessa Syms, Mr Robert ‘(8A) The Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime must not ask, Murrison, Dr Andrew Tapsell, Sir Peter require or encourage the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis to act in a manner which could— Neill, Robert Teather, Sarah Newmark, Mr Brooks Thurso, John (a) put the Commissioner in breach of his attestation Newton, Sarah Timpson, Mr Edward under oath in accordance with Schedule 4 of the Nokes, Caroline Tomlinson, Justin Police Act 1996; or Norman, Jesse Truss, Elizabeth (b) conflict with the Commissioner’s exercise of direction Nuttall, Mr David Turner, Mr Andrew and control under section 4(3). O’Brien, Mr Stephen Tyrie, Mr Andrew (8B) If the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis Offord, Mr Matthew Uppal, Paul reasonably believes that the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Ollerenshaw, Eric Vaizey, Mr Edward Crime has asked, required or encouraged him to act in a manner Opperman, Guy Vara, Mr Shailesh that is prohibited under subsection (8A), he may notify the Ottaway, Richard Vickers, Martin London Assembly police and crime panel. Paice, rh Mr James Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa (8C) For the avoidance of doubt, any purported direction by Parish, Neil Walker, Mr Charles the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime under subsection (8A) Patel, Priti Walker, Mr Robin has no legal effect.’. Paterson, rh Mr Owen Wallace, Mr Ben Pawsey, Mark Walter, Mr Robert Vernon Coaker: This group of provisions is smaller, Penning, Mike Ward, Mr David but none the less important. It is difficult for us to Penrose, John Watkinson, Angela discuss new clause 5 without a draft of the code of Percy, Andrew Weatherley, Mike practice, memorandum of understanding or protocol, Perry, Claire Wharton, James as we are now to call it? He will know that in Committee Phillips, Stephen Wheeler, Heather I consistently and persistently asked for a draft to be 403 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 404 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill ready for our consideration. To be fair, he did not say the Minister, so the odd drafting error might occur, but that one would be ready for Report, and I am not that does not alter the thrust of what we are trying to do suggesting that he did, but I expected that a draft of a through the new clause. If the right hon. Gentleman draft of a draft would be available, and I think that had been here for the earlier debate he would know that most members of the Committee would have expected the Minister, even with his bank of lawyers, supporters the same. and helpers, has had to propose a number of amendments A huge change to policing is being made. The Minister to correct drafting errors. So it is not only me who and the Government have accepted what I said and makes the odd drafting error, but I am doing it on my what was in the Home Affairs Committee report, which computer. Notwithstanding any drafting error, if we was that such is the importance of the protocol detailing regard as right the principle that a protocol or memorandum the responsibility of the police and crime commissioner of understanding should be subject to the affirmative vis-à-vis the chief constable—others, for example, the resolution procedure of the House, we should support it. police and crime panel, could be included, as has been In its evidence and the report it issued yesterday, suggested—we should have it, yet we are discussing it ACPO said that without knowing even what shape it will be. We do not “there are three broad areas where we believe improved safeguards even know what things might be included in it. The are required”. Minister will say, “Don’t worry, it will be ready for the I shall deal with only the first of those three, as it relates House of Lords.” Why should this House not have a to the new clause. ACPO said of the first area: draft available to it, so that it can consider what is in the “Clarity on the responsibilities of the PCC”— protocol and make representations about it? the police and crime commissioner— We have no way of knowing what will be in the “and Chief Constable. The proposed ‘protocol’ is still early in its protocol. Let us suppose it contains things that members development. We believe such a key document will need to be of the Committee think should not be in it. I do not specific and legally binding—such as through a Code of Practice know what influence the hon. Member for Cambridge founded in law.” (Dr Huppert) will have, but what happens if he does not That was ACPO’s advice yesterday. It continued, at agree with what is in it? He will have no opportunity to paragraph 50: say anything about it. The hon. Member for Amber “ACPO has real concerns that the Bill does not fully recognise Valley (Nigel Mills) served on the Committee with the the uniqueness of the tripartite system between the Home Secretary, hon. Member for Cambridge. What happens if he thinks Chief Constables and local democratic governance. It is considered that the protocol should not include one thing but that the Bill places too much emphasis on local considerations should include another? Why should we not be able to giving disproportionate power to the PCC to the detriment of the look at it? necessary national and legal responsibilities placed upon the Home Secretary and Chief Constables. Our concern is to ensure If the Minister was stood where I am and I was sat that Chief Constables have sufficient operational independence where he is, he would be saying exactly the same thing safeguarding their impartiality to balance the various duties and to me. He would be saying that it is impossible for us to accountabilities they face. Currently, it is at best uncertain that legislate properly because we simply do not know what the safeguards under development in parallel with the progress of we are legislating about. It is not good enough to say, the Bill will achieve that aim.” “Don’t worry, it will go to the House of Lords.” We I think ACPO is clearly telling the Minister that he have the most fundamental change in policing before us needs to amend the Bill in a similar way to that suggested and we have no idea what the Government’s protocol is, in my new clause. although they have accepted that we should have it—that is not good enough. I do not believe that hon. Members Mark Reckless: The hon. Gentleman is telling us on either side of the House would think, either in public what ACPO said yesterday, but it is not easy for the or in private, that that is acceptable either. How does, Minister because ACPO has previously taken an entirely “It will be ready for the Lords” help us to discuss this? different line. Sir Hugh Orde told the Home Affairs New clause 5 states that any such protocol must have Committee that he did not want anything entrenched in some statutory force. The Association of Chief Police legislation. Officers believes it should be enshrined in primary legislation. The Minister said that would be very difficult, Vernon Coaker: No doubt members of ACPO, including so we looked at whether an order-making power could Sir Hugh Orde, its hugely respected president, will have be introduced to allow us to consider the protocol, as it considered the discussions on the Bill and will have would then be subject to the affirmative procedure in continued to discuss it with colleagues in deciding on this House and the House of Lords. the most appropriate advice and guidance to give the Government. ACPO has regularly said that it is for the Government to determine the governance structure, but 4pm it will do its best, whatever structure is finally decided, Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): Does the to implement it and deliver the policing that we would hon. Gentleman accept that the new clause, as drafted, all wish to see. However, it also has a responsibility to is in pretty poor shape? Even if we accepted it into the point out to the Government where there are problems, Bill, could not the Minister publish a memorandum and it has done so in guidance. There is a serious under subsection (1) containing the word “none”? need for clarity from the Government regarding the memorandum of understanding, code of practice or Vernon Coaker: That might be a good debating point, protocol. but as a Bill goes through the House we need to debate It is not acceptable for this issue not to be subject to a its principles and the right legislative approach. We do legislative process, and I should be interested to learn not have the Queen’s counsel support that is available to whether the Minister agrees. He has agreed that there 405 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 406 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill [Vernon Coaker] The Minister’s response is, “It won’t be a problem. Don’t worry about it. Good sense will prevail. Why should be a protocol, and a draft is in the throes of should the doomsday scenario presented by the shadow production—no doubt, a group is working on it and Minister happen?” That is a pretty poor way to legislate discussions are under way. I suspect that there are when we are dealing with such a serious matter. It is not disagreements, which is why it has not been issued enough to say, “Don’t worry. It won’t happen. Everybody’s yet—it is proving more problematic than the Minister good sense will prevail.” The amendments before us are expected. important. Clearly, I am not the only one who is worried. We need a protocol, because we need to clarify the Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Has my role of the police and crime commissioner vis-à-vis the hon. Friend noticed the lack of enthusiasm for the chief constable. In Committee, we debated at length concept of police and crime commissioners? A good what their respective roles should be. The police and test in the House of Commons, as he knows full well, is crime commissioner is elected on a local mandate and whether, on a free vote—which obviously is not going will make certain promises, but what is their mandate to occur—the Government’s project would command a vis-à-vis the chief constable? Where is the line drawn majority. between what the commissioner would wish to do and the chief constable’s operational responsibilities? Vernon Coaker: No, on a free vote, I do not think the It is interesting that an amendment has been tabled measure would go through. I agree with my hon. Friend. by some of the Minister’s colleagues, who are as concerned It will be even more interesting to see whether, on a free as I am. Indeed, the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee, vote, the new clause, which seeks to give a legislative my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East base to the protocol between police and crime (Keith Vaz), has added his name to amendment 149. commissioners and chief constables, would be supported The hon. Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark by a majority. I suspect it would. Reckless) is the lead Member for the amendment, and Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): My he is clearly concerned. The amendment has a great recollection of the discussion that took place in Committee deal of merit, and it tries to deal with the issue. The is that the Minister repeatedly claimed that one of the hon. Gentleman is trying to clarify whether a police and arguments for a police and crime commissioner was crime commissioner has the opportunity to tell a chief that the public would know who to go to and who to constable to investigate a crime. Is it any crime, or no complain to. There would be a single point. He cited the crime? Is that just a matter for the chief constable? Does rise in the number of complaints when the Mayor of the commissioner have any power over that? London took on that responsibility. Is it not the clear What about the funding of units? Can the commissioner message of amendment 149 that the public will go to tell the chief constable what units they should have? On the commissioner with the expectation that he can the apportioning of resources, the Minister looked very intervene in investigations and cases? Unless it is spelled upset when I quoted the report by Her Majesty’s out in new clause 5 or in the amendment, we will be inspectorate of constabulary, which showed that only electing people on a false prospectus because the expectation 5% of police and community support officers were not will be that the commissioner has that power. This in the back office. What about the commissioner’s ability illustrates the dilemma that the Minister has created. to say what the correct mix of staff is? They might not want to see as many people doing a particular job, and Vernon Coaker: I agree. That is the point I am making. may want to civilianise. The Minister’s favourite thing An individual will stand for election in a police force at the moment is looking at outsourcing. What if a area, saying, “I will ensure that there are X number of commissioner does not believe in that? Whose responsibility officers in this area and that area. I don’t want to see would it be? Tasers used. I don’t want to see such-and-such equipment used. I want to see the police patrolling not in pairs, but What about the reorganisation of policing? Who has singly. I don’t want to see police in cars.” It will not be a say on that? What equipment can or cannot be used? possible to stop someone saying that in their election It may be an operational decision to use horses or dogs manifesto. They are not going to stand for election in a public order situation, but does the commissioner saying, “I think everything’s wonderful. Vote for me.” have any jurisdiction or say in whether the police have a What sort of election slogan is that? They would not get police or horse section? Is that an operational responsibility? elected. If we had a draft protocol, we could begin to understand Candidates will stand on an exciting, impassioned, the differences in those areas. inspirational agenda for change in policing in that area. We have just seen the police do a very good job My hon. Friend is right. That is the nub of the dilemma overall at the weekend, and I praised the Metropolitan that the Minister faces—what happens when that individual, Police Commissioner for it. However, when I recently enthused with their election victory, or determined to saw him we discussed containment. What right does a be re-elected, tries to influence what the chief constable police and crime commissioner or someone else have to does? tell a chief constable that they had dealt with such a situation wrongly? Does the police and crime commissioner Mark Tami: Does my hon. Friend agree that the have the right to do more than express an opinion? scenario that he describes will be worse when there is a Police and crime commissioners are directly elected. We second round of elections? The police commissioners are not talking about a police authority. Police and will be trying to stay in the job and others will be saying crime commissioners will not be appointed by the Mayor how incompetent they are and trying to introduce change. and unelected, as in London. Who has the responsibility It will be the constant agenda of candidates to run for making such decisions? These are hugely serious down the police and offer change—sometimes change issues that worry many people across the country. for the sake of change. 407 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 408 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill Vernon Coaker: That is a very real danger. The Minister The Minister was very clear on Second Reading and will no doubt try to say that he will address that through when he gave evidence to the Committee on the role and the protocol because it will lay out what can and cannot importance of the elected commissioners and that what be done. It would have been extremely helpful if Members we are doing is rebalancing the tripartite system, moving had even a draft to consider. Without it, it is very from a police authority leg that has traditionally been difficult for us properly to consider and debate the new too weak and bolstering the role of the democratic and clause. Having said that, the new clause is extremely local element with the directly elected commissioner. important. I raised that point with the Minister in the Committee on 27 July last year, and asked whether there was any 4.15 pm possibility of an incompatibility between what we intended with the legislation and what Lord Denning said in ex John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): Has my hon. Friend parte Blackburn in 1968. The Minister’s reply was considered the dilemma of a member of a political important. He said: party being elected and the same police force being “It is often stated, quoting Lord Denning’s dictum that the requested to investigate election irregularities of another police should be answerable to the law and the law alone. I think party member—for example, a Member of Parliament that is right in the sense of when they are exercising their powers who is re-standing in that police area—if the decision of arrest and so on that that should not be subject to any kind of on whether the issue should be investigated by the political interference. We would all agree about that but, clearly, police is marginal? Has he considered that dilemma that somebody has to set the police budget and the strategic direction the Government are about to create? of the police, so there has to be accountability to someone, and our premise is that that should no longer be to the centre, to a faceless bureaucrat, to the Home Secretary; it should instead be Vernon Coaker: That is another interesting dilemma to local people through the election of the police and crime that might arise. No doubt there are many other such commissioner.” examples in which we could point out the dangers. That is what we intend to achieve with the Bill, and it is I cannot stress enough how important the police feel a distinction that is consistent with what we saw back in this is and how important I think it is. I am sure that we the 1962 royal commission. will all listen to the Minister when he responds not only As the hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) to the lead new clause but to the amendment tabled by knows, the Select Committee received some helpful his hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and Strood. legal advice on this matter that read: “This part of Lord Denning’s judgment is not strictly binding Mark Reckless: I should first declare an interest as a as it went beyond the range of issues that had to be decided in member of the Kent police authority. I thank the hon. that case, and is therefore obiter.” Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) for his testimonial We then had an assessment from our legal advisers on a to my work in that role, which—who knows?—might leading academic text in this area by Richard Clayton find its way into one of my election leaflets. QC and Hugh Tomlinson QC, whose conclusion on We have heard about the protocol—let us call it that, Lord Denning’s judgment was: so that we use common language—and I note that the “The doctrine is an exorbitant one and its legal foundations shadow Minister refers to operational responsibility in are very slight”. the new clause. It would be great to have a clearly agreed I had a look at that leading text and some of the definition for operational independence or responsibility academic debate on the difficulty of defining operational as it is, but it is enormously difficult to do that. ACPO’s independence and what it was considered to mean. Richard position has changed on that, which does not necessarily Clayton and Hugh Tomlinson referred to section 6(1) of assist us. The Home Affairs Committee visited ACPO the Police Act 1996, which the Bill carries over, and two days ago, and it seems that the draft protocol is wrote that it bouncing between it and the Home Office. ACPO had “appears to create a specific sphere of responsibility for the police no objection to the draft being shared with the Committee authority”. when we asked for it. Will the Minister give the Committee They go on to state that section 10(1), which deals with sight of the protocol, even if it is still an early draft? the direction and control of the chief constable, is Amendment 149 is a probing amendment, because it subject to that provision, and is very important to get the views of the House and of “only covers immediate operational direction and control but the Minister on the record. I have tried to emphasise a does not bear on the question of the extent to which the chief point that arose from the 1962 royal commission, which constable is under supervision of the police authority.” is that there is an important distinction, as I put it in the The Committee went into the academic literature in amendment, that the elected commissioner more detail. We heard from Rick Muir, from the Institute “shall have no involvement in decisions with respect to individual for Public Policy Research, who has done much work—from investigations and arrests.” the left—on this key issue. He agreed with me when I That is an important constitutional protection. The asked whether there was a distinction Minister spoke quite strongly on that both on Second “between the individual cases, where clearly the police should Reading and in evidence to the Home Affairs Committee. have independence in terms of arrest and investigation in those I am slightly concerned that one remark he made in the individual cases, and the broader spectrum of setting priorities, Committee, regarding the potential for too strict an determining where budgets are spent and setting policy in general, interpretation of what Lord Denning said in 1968, which is properly the field of elected politicians”. should not be taken out of context. The context, as the He observed that unfortunately confusion had arisen Home Secretary said on Monday, is that we anticipate because wrongly there had been a that it will be the elected commissioner who is in charge, “tendency of chief constables to take Denning to mean that they as with the Mayor of London. are in charge of strategy”. 409 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 410 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill [Mark Reckless] He concluded: “A police force serves the public, and the elected representatives We do not have before us this protocol that the hon. of the public must ensure that the public get the police force they Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) referred to, but deserve.” the Committee was able to draw out some of the key It is clearly right that there can be no interference in issues. individual investigations or arrests, but it is important My amendment emphasises the position in 1962. to look at the issue from both sides. Unfortunately, when Denning made his judgment, he did not have the advantage of being able to refer to Steve McCabe: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman proceedings in the House. Judges have been able to do for bringing to the House’s attention what I think is a that only since Pepper v. Hart in, I think, 1994. The key dilemma that the Minister has created. As I have been 1962 royal commission, which set the consensus on listening to the hon. Gentleman, I have been reflecting operational independence, was summarised by the legal on what would have happened if we had had police and advisers in a report to the Committee. They wrote: crime commissioners at the time of the Stephen Lawrence murder and the subsequent inquiry. Does he think “The Royal Commission on Police emphasised the need for impartiality and operational independence of the police in relation that it would have been possible for the police and to ‘quasi-judicial’ decisions”. crime commissioner to fulfil the requirements of both clause 1(8)(g) and his amendment 149? The royal commission included in those quasi-judicial decisions Mark Reckless: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman could “inquiries with regard to suspected offences, the arrest of persons cite that provision, which I do not have to hand. and the decision to prosecute,” adding: Steve McCabe: I apologise. Clause 1(8)(g) places a “In matters of this kind it is clearly in the public interest that a responsibility on the police and crime commissioner to police officer should be answerable only to his superiors in the “hold the chief constable to account” force and, to the extent that a matter may come before them, to for the courts. His impartiality would be jeopardised, and public “the exercise of duties relating to equality and diversity that are confidence in it shaken, if in this field he were to be made the imposed on the chief constable by any enactment.” servant of too local a body.” In particular, I am thinking of what came out of the The commission said in respect of other duties: Lawrence inquiry. “It cannot in our view be said that” they Mark Reckless: Yes, absolutely. What we saw in that “require the complete immunity from external influence that is instance was a failure in the operational direction of the generally acknowledged to be necessary in regard to the enforcement Metropolitan police. Rather than waiting years and of the law in particular cases.” years for an inquiry to make the Metropolitan police As our legal advisers point out, those other duties have appropriate respect for diversity and follow up on include such crimes in the way it should, a directly elected “general policies in regard to law enforcement…the disposition of commissioner with sufficient authority could have pressed his force, the concentration of his resources on any particular for that much more quickly. Indeed, that is one area type of crime or area, the manner in which he handles political where we would be looking for clear, elected oversight demonstrations or processions” and guidance for the police. or “his policy in enforcing the traffic laws and…dealing with parked 4.30 pm vehicles”. Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): On the point that That clear distinction has therefore run all the way the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve through, from the royal commission in 1962 to the McCabe) just made, I note that my hon. Friend’s evidence that the Home Affairs Committee has taken. amendment states that That is what I am trying to emphasise with my “the police and crime commissioner shall have no involvement in amendment 149; indeed, it is also what the Minister decisions with respect to individual investigations”. emphasised when he appeared before the Committee. I If there were a high-profile murder, would my hon. would therefore be grateful if he confirmed that he does Friend think it appropriate for the commissioner to say not resile from any of those remarks. to a chief constable, “I think you should put more The other important point to make about Denning’s resource into that investigation. What you are doing judgment in 1968 is that it related not to what a police now is not sufficient and there is real community concern”? authority could do in terms of a chief constable, but to Or is my hon. Friend saying that that would be what a single individual, Mr Blackburn, who as a inappropriate? publicly spirited gentleman came to court with a judicial review, could do. The question was about the extent to Mark Reckless: That is a very good example, which which he as an individual could require the Metropolitan helps to elucidate the point. It would not be appropriate Police Commissioner to implement policing in a particular for the elected commissioner to say, “On this particular operational manner. That distinction is made clear by individual investigation I would like fewer”—or more— further material, including the 1988 case of Hill v. Chief “police”, or, “You should investigate it in this way Constable of West Yorkshire, in which it was clearly rather than that.” We do not look to the elected drawn. In that case, Lord Templeman said: commissioners to do that, but I see a strong role for “The question for determination in this appeal is whether an them in ensuring that justice is colour blind and that the action for damages is an appropriate vehicle for investigating the police do not make assumptions about a witness or efficiency of a police force.” potential suspect on the basis of ethnicity or any other 411 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 412 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill inappropriate basis. We have seen strong progress by the that. However, if there were issues regarding safety, I police in that area, but, with the Macpherson inquiry would look to the chief constable to have those considered and the way in which some measures have been rolled appropriately within the discussion. out, there has not necessarily been the sensitivity that there might have been. The elected commissioner will I do not agree with the view of ACPO, nor do have a relationship with the wider electorate, however, Conservative Members or members of the Committee so they will sometimes be in a position to lead the police necessarily accept it, that police officers operate in a in particular areas regarding social attitudes. sort of political vacuum where they can, without reference I have huge respect for the police, given my work with to the elected authority, make the decision themselves. I them in Kent, but there are particular traditions in think that people will campaign on these issues to policing and the work force are made up in a particular become the elected police and crime commissioner. In way. Those things have changed, with a very welcome many respects, it is entirely proper that the chief constable and greater number of women now working as police should then implement proposals with a democratic officers, and there has been a significant improvement mandate behind them, as in the case of the Metropolitan in black and minority ethnic representation. In Kent, police service following what Boris Johnson, the Mayor we had the first black chief constable in Mike Fuller, of London, said about a stronger emphasis on knife who did an extraordinary job of engaging with the crime and having more officers on public transport, public and involving them closely with the work of particularly buses. The Metropolitan police did then Kent police. The police have a significantly smaller implement that, and that is perfectly proper. proportion of graduates, although it is higher than it I should emphasise that this point goes both ways. was, and the elected commissioner will be able to lead in We need to ensure that chief constables recognise the those areas. I look to him to do so. appropriate and entirely proper role of the elected I emphasise to the House that the distinction I draw, commissioner in making such decisions, but there is going back to the 1962 royal commission at least, works also the other side of the coin. My experience on a both ways, and I am very concerned about budget police authority is that I often get asked about operational setting, priorities and some of the management of matters. A sergeant may ask me whether I thought that public protest. My hon. Friend the Member for Cannock a particular police community support officer should Chase (Mr Burley) asked some probing questions of be deployed from one area to another, or a constable various witnesses, but the question of whether there may ask me whether I am happy about how they have should be a presumption that police officers will travel dealt with a particular offence, or whether I think that a in pairs, and the extent to which officers might be on particular individual should be charged or dealt with in bicycles, on foot or in cars, are very properly areas for a certain way. It has then been incumbent on me, as a elected oversight, and inevitably political decisions. If member of the police authority, to say, “Hang on a we do draw that distinction, the Bill will help chief minute, this is not a proper area for an elected politician constables. to be determining what happens within the police.” I have always been very clear about that, and when there Vernon Coaker: May I be clear about what the hon. has been an issue that is a shade of grey I have referred Gentleman just said? Did he say that an elected individual it to our excellent area commander in Medway, Steve should be able to try to influence the chief constable in Corbishley. Such sensitive issues need to be dealt with at terms of patrolling in pairs, individually or whatever, that higher level. One cannot necessarily expect every and in terms of the other examples he used? Or did he constable, sergeant or even inspector to be totally au say that he thought it should be open to the police and fait with where this line should be drawn. I am echoing crime commissioner to direct the chief constable on the emphasis that the royal commission, and the Minister those matters? in Committee, put on this complete protection in relation to individual investigation and arrest. That is an important Mark Reckless: In almost all those areas, there will safeguard, and it should work both ways. invariably be agreement. There is give and take, and that has been my experience on a police authority. I am The Bill uses the phrase “have regard to” in relation sure that in most instances it will apply to the elected to the police panel as against the commissioner for the commissioner and to the chief constable. I am not budget, the commissioner in respect of a strategic policing convinced that “direct” is the right word, but there objective, and the chief constable’s need to have regard might be public concern, as there was a few years ago in to the policing plan determined by the Minister. We my area, about the police spending too much time in may be firing the starting gun for litigation, but if so, I cars and not being available on the beat. Indeed, I have hope that Members, particularly the Minister, have often heard it said that two officers who go out on the given a clear steer to the courts as to the role that we see beat together will naturally tend to talk and enter into elected commissioners as having and the need to rebalance exchanges with each other, whereas one police officer the tripartite relationship. Lord Hoffmann, in the case on patrol might have a greater tendency to engage with of Regina v. Chief Constable of Sussex ex parte the public. International Trader’s Ferry Ltd, said that, even under I think that we would look to elected commissioners the current arrangements, where regard must be had for to reflect the public view, although I would not necessarily the policing plan, the chief constable’s discretion was be comfortable with that in individual instances. It therefore “subject” to the statutory plan. Together with would be right for the elected commissioner to say, the roles of the chief constable and the Home Office, we “Previously we’ve had this presumption that officers have a rebalancing of the tripartite system. We are should patrol in pairs, but I think in future the presumption bolstering the democratic local element by having direct should be that where possible officers patrol individually,” election, and that should provide a far stronger voice and I would expect the chief constable to give effect to for the public in setting policing policy and priorities. 413 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 414 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill John Mann: I note the volume of Members taking The dangers to police pensions, and to the basis on part in the debate: I think attendance is under 3%. which people join and remain with the police, which has Doubtless everyone has better things to do. I note that been undermined by this rotten Government, could be fact because at some stage—not today—quorums will rectified by some wisdom in a memorandum of have to be challenged in the House if Members, not understanding or in the statutory instrument behind it, least on the Government side, do not turn up to promote or could be dealt with by emergency legislation on day the Bills that they propose. one when this fragile coalition collapses. I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) on his excellent approach to trying to Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): It is dismantle the Bill, and I fully support new clause 5. Let always interesting to hear the hon. Gentleman scrutinise me give an additional reason why it is appropriate for a Bill. He is speaking on behalf of the three Back-Bench the House to vote for the new clause. When this fragile Members of Her Majesty’s Opposition who are present. coalition collapses, which will no doubt happen soon However, has he asked the people of Bassetlaw properly after the May elections, if this Bill has reached Royal whether they want to have a stake in the policing in Assent by then, rather than wasting primary legislative their area, to hold the police to account and to determine time immediately, my hon. Friend could use a statutory the priorities for policing? Is he not being presumptuous instrument to remove the most objectionable parts of in assuming that he knows exactly what they want the legislation, which were most eloquently described before there is a properly elected commissioner? by the hon. Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark 4.45 pm Reckless). He wishes to direct where police resources go and to make operational decisions, such as those, as he John Mann: I never like to be presumptuous. As I am said, on the question of whether policing should be sure the hon. Gentleman knows, I constantly communicate single or double. Those are fundamental operational with the people of Bassetlaw about their views. However, decisions, and it is quite extraordinary that anyone one has to prioritise. My question to them at the moment, could oppose the new clause, which seeks to rectify the which they are answering in their thousands, day in, day damage that such a loss of operational independence out—I am sure that there will be more answers by the will cause. end of tonight—is whether they agree with the 30% cut This is an outrage. My hon. Friend the Member for in police and fire services that his Government, backed Gedling and I come under the same police authority in by the Liberals, are bringing in. That is an even bigger Nottinghamshire, and I do not know whether he has danger to their standard of living and quality of life, found a single member of the Nottinghamshire police and to the security and safety of businesses, pensioners, who supports the idea that an elected politician with young people, and the whole population in my area. such powers should be above them directing their work, I assure the hon. Gentleman that I have had no as the Government propose. In my experience, there is representations from anybody asking for another elected great resentment about what the Government are doing politician. The Government have prided themselves on to the police, including the idea that a politician should getting rid of 50 MPs. Looking at the green Benches be elected to do that job, on whatever manifesto. That today, it appears that they might already have got rid of person might come from the mainstream parties, might a random assortment of 50 MPs. Those MPs will be be a maverick independent or might be a former senior replaced by about 44 new politicians. It is almost a job police officer who has perhaps been forced out of the swap. This is costing the taxpayer money. More crucially, police for reasons that they choose not to declare. There it is diverting us away from the priorities. I know that are many different motives why someone might wish to Members from all parts of the House, and especially stand for such a position, but when there is an election, the Liberals, will want to vote for this excellent new the one certainty is that somebody will be elected. We have clause, because it gives us the opportunity to clarify that seen this with elected mayors: however low the turnout, we will not have meddling by politicians in any area of somebody is elected and sometimes the population is police operations. I cited the dangers of that in my rather aghast at what they have ended up with as a result earlier intervention. of their inaction, or their inability or refusal to vote. The Government have given us statistics that show It is bad enough when such things happen in local that across the country, cases about elections and petitions authorities, but to put such a person—an elected politician, of one kind or another have been taken to the playing to the gallery for election and re-election—in police, including by political parties. In the county of charge of operational policing matters is an outrage. Nottinghamshire such cases have been taken by political This modest but well-written new clause at least offers parties, including by the Conservative party. I think that some opportunity to pull that back. Of course, it could that was a bit spurious and a waste of police time, but go further. If I were writing the memorandum of the party was entitled to do it. If politicians or their understanding, I would ensure that some of the other backers are doing deals with one party or another, in dangers to British policing that are being and have been the traditional way, to become the candidate for this brought in by this reckless Government were also rectified. new elected position, and they are also using the police in There would also be an opportunity to build in something making allegations about elections—be they parliamentary, to stop the use of regulation A19, whereby experienced local or even potentially for police commissioners—how police officers—including those in my area—are refused will that be dealt with? How will there be impartiality the opportunity to continue in policing with the experience when there is one elected person at the very top? That is and training that they have built up, which the taxpayer a fundamental flaw in the Bill and in the Government’s has paid for. They want to stay on, doing a job and logic. earning a decent living serving the public, but they have There will of course be an opportunity—I will not been removed by this Government. Police in my area speak to this point now, Mr Deputy Speaker—to reject are also very angry about police pensions. this rotten Bill tomorrow at 6 o’clock, or perhaps even 415 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 416 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill earlier. In the meantime, any logical, rational, law-and-order Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless) considered that politician in this House will back the excellent and in tabling the amendment, and if he has a response I considered new clause moved by my hon. Friend the would be very happy for him to intervene on me at this Member for Gedling, because it will amend the Bill in a point. If he is not going to, the Minister might want to way that provides some protection. The people in my pick up on that point when he responds. area want effective policing that is run by the police, In an ideal world we would have been considering a and they want the police to be accountable. draft protocol, but clearly a lot of work on it is still I do not know whether as a boy the Minister liked to going on. I am sure that means that when it is put into play with Meccano or Lego, but I can see that he has the public domain, it will be strong and satisfy Members. built up the idea that it is his job to meddle, to take As I said, I understand where the hon. Member for apart and to rebuild. He has taken that forward into Rochester and Strood is coming from on amendment 149, adult life, and when it comes to the police force, because but it is clear that there will be no expectation whatever he is the Police Minister he has to do something to that the commissioners will get involved in individual demonstrate that he is worth his money. decisions. One would expect that the police and crime The Minister could tell the police, “Here are the panels would have forceful things to say if they did so. resources I’ve battled with the Treasury to get you. Go out there, catch criminals and give the general public Nick Herbert: First, I confirm again to the House confidence in security and safety. Get on with your job something that has been confirmed on a number of and do a good job, and we will hold you accountable to occasions: the Bill does not change the legal position ensure that you do.” Oh, no. He cannot do that. Instead, that the direction and control of forces remains with the he has to meddle and try to rebuild everything, just as chief constable. Therefore, the basis of the legal relationship the Government are doing with schools and the health between police authorities and chief constables is service. The excellent new clause 5 would at least pull maintained in the direction of control in the Bill. the Government back from that, so I recommend it to Nevertheless, there is concern about ensuring the the House, and I trust that all Members will vote for it. fundamental principle of the operational independence of chief constables, which we debated at considerable Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): It is a length in Committee. As we discussed at some length, pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John there is no statutory definition of operational independence, Mann), who is clearly a grand master when it comes to and indeed, there is general agreement that it would be playing to the gallery. I must say, I was rather worried unwise to attempt such a definition. The matter has for his health, or indeed his sanity. I wonder whether he been considered on a number of occasions by the actually believes his doom-mongering vision of the courts—my hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and world, but he is certainly very effective at getting across Strood (Mark Reckless) spoke of one key case. However, his concerns. He will be very disappointed about this, ACPO, which is concerned to ensure that the operational but I suggest that he should not hold his breath while he independence of chief officers is not in any way threatened, waits for the coalition to collapse, because 2015 is a has said that it does not wish us to try to define it in law. long way away. The debate on the proper role of the chief constable I now turn to the new clause and the amendments. It and the proper role of the local body that holds them to is clearly welcome that the protocol, or the memorandum account will continue—as it does between police authorities of understanding, is being discussed and drawn up. and chief officers and others, with the matter sometimes ending up in court. That is part of what Sir Hugh Orde, Vernon Coaker: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the ACPO president, described—not pejoratively—as we should have a draft of that to consider, even if it is a the tension that should exist in the relationship. However, draft of a draft? It really is not good enough that it will as I said in Committee, to some extent, we are talking be available to the House of Lords to consider without about shades of grey. our having had it in front of us. Mark Reckless: Is not one limitation of existing case Tom Brake: I think that the Minister and I would law that an individual litigant—or a company such as probably agree that in an ideal world it would have been International Trader’s Ferry—trying to get the chief useful to have a draft, but I do not think it is essential. I constable to do something is different from the relationship am sure that the House of Lords will deal with the that the Minister describes between the police authority matter in the professional way that we would expect. and its statutory powers and the chief constable? The It is interesting to note that initially senior officers Home Affairs Committee heard from witnesses who felt had strong reservations about whether they wanted a that there is significant scope within the existing regime protocol, so a degree of flexibility will be needed. I have for police authorities to be more assertive in setting some sympathy with amendment 149, but I suspect that policy—it just happens that they have not done so. the Minister will make it clear that there is every expectation that the police and crime commissioners will have no Nick Herbert: My hon. Friend’s point is well made. involvement in decisions on individual investigations However, the police and crime commissioner, who will and arrests. That will be a clear requirement. have a mandate, could be more assertive. That is the The one point that may require clarification is what basis and thrust of the chief constables’ concerns. I would happen in a case that actually involved the police cited the example of London. The Mayor of London and crime commissioner. For instance, if they had been stood on a manifesto of placing uniformed officers on assaulted, would the amendment prevent them from public transport and tackling knife crime. Whether that taking a decision about whether charges should be cut across the operational independence of the Met has pressed? I do not know whether the hon. Member for been debated but not resolved, but it is significant that 417 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 418 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill [Nick Herbert] I want to turn to the status of the document. New clause 5 seeks to set out the memorandum of understanding those things have happened, and the Metropolitan police in secondary legislation. The right hon. Member for have willingly implemented them. We must accept that, Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) asked what the to some extent, there are areas of negotiation and consequences would be of not following the protocol. shades of grey, which is why all parties agree that it We envisage that this will be an extra-statutory document, would be a mistake to try to define in statute the notion and that it will be issued in the form of guidance. I am of operational independence. certainly willing to consider what the legal status of the However, equally, we are all agreed—as I indicated document should be, and whether it should have some on Second Reading, the Government were already minded kind of statutory imprimatur, but we really need to see to do this—on drawing up a protocol, as the Home what it looks like first. We need to understand how Affairs Committee recommended, to try to set out the granular it will be, and whether that would effectively precise roles of the police and crime commissioner and define operational independence in a way that, so far, the chief constable in the new arrangements, and to everyone has made it clear we should not so define it. I broaden the protocol to cover the role of the police and reassure the hon. Member for Gedling, however, that crime panel, given that that is new, and the role of the this matter should be considered, and I have no doubt Home Secretary. It is worth stating that the Government’s that the other place will have a view on it. intention in introducing that reform is not to abandon the tripartite, but to rebalance it, because we feel that it Mr Llwyd: I thank the Minister for replying to my has been too distorted in the past, particularly in relation question in such short order, and in as much detail as he to the accrual of power by the centre and the Home could muster. If he is saying that some form of legislative Secretary. vehicle might encompass the protocol, would not regulation by statutory instrument be the obvious answer?

Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): Can Nick Herbert: I repeat that we do not envisage this the Minister enlighten us as to what would happen if being a statutory document. It was originally called a someone breached the protocol? memorandum of understanding by the Select Committee, and I do not think that the Committee’s recommendation Nick Herbert: May I come to that in a moment? I will envisaged it being a statutory document. Its purpose is address the status of the document shortly. to clarify the roles and responsibilities in law. In other As I mentioned earlier, the Home Office has set up a words, it will be seeking not to set law but to explain transition board to discuss how the present system will what the law is. The danger is that we will be drawn into migrate to the new one. One of the issues that we a means of setting law, when all the parties involved are discussing is the protocol; that work has begun. have so far said that we should not seek to define ACPO has nominated Chief Constable Adrian Lee of operational independence by statute. They have said Northamptonshire police to be its representative. He that we should leave the matter to the understanding of will sit on a working party, alongside Home Office the courts and the existing case law. officials and representatives from other organisations including the Association of Police Authorities and the Mark Reckless: Will the Minister agree to supply the Association of Police Authority Chief Executives, to document, at least in draft form, to the Home Affairs discuss the issue. Work is therefore ongoing. Committee as well as to the House of Lords? The Association of Chief Police Officers and the Home Office are negotiating, but should not the negotiations 5pm be for the tripartite system, although we do not yet have the elected commissioners in place? I have to say to the hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) that it was never going to be possible to produce Nick Herbert: First, the Association of Police Authorities a draft document in time for Report, and he knows that is certainly involved in the drafting; it is part of the I never indicated that it would be. However, I have said group discussing the matter. I agree that negotiations that we will attempt to produce one in time for it to be must reflect the tripartite system, and I want to reassure considered in the other place. I hope that he will appreciate my hon. Friend about that. As to supplying the draft to that that is being done with the best of intentions and at the Home Affairs Committee, I am happy to agree. the fastest possible pace, given the complexity of the Furthermore, if my hon. Friend would like to meet me issue. It is worth reflecting on the fact that a similar and officials to discuss it further, I think it would assist protocol that was proposed in Northern Ireland by the our deliberations. I would like to organise that as soon Patten commission in 2004 was discussed over several as possible, bearing in mind the considerable experience years and has still not been put in place. That is partly that my hon. Friend brings as a member of a police because Patten recommended that the concept involved authority with a particular view. should be one of operational responsibility, and not independence. I note that the hon. Gentleman has I appreciate my hon. Friend’s purpose in proposing chosen to use the words “operational responsibility” in amendment 149, according to which his new clause. We are not using them ourselves, however; “the police and crime commissioner shall have no involvement” we are using “operational independence”. The work is in deciding whether a person is investigated or directed. ongoing, and it is our intention to try to produce In fact, that is the existing common law principle and something for the Lords. I am sorry that we have not the courts have consistently stated that the Executive had an opportunity to look at a draft here, but I hope must not interfere in operational law enforcement decisions, that the hon. Gentleman will understand that the work so there is no need for that to be written expressly in the is under way. Bill. 419 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 420 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill I hope that the hon. Member for Gedling will accept Beckett, rh Margaret Greatrex, Tom the good faith with which I agreed with the recommendation Begg, Dame Anne Green, Kate of the Home Affairs Select Committee. I hope he will Bell, Sir Stuart Greenwood, Lilian acknowledge that I have listened to the Association of Benn, rh Hilary Griffith, Nia Chief Police Officers and others who have expressed Berger, Luciana Gwynne, Andrew concern about operational independence; restated that Betts, Mr Clive Hain, rh Mr Peter Blackman-Woods, Roberta Hamilton, Mr David we do not seek to cut across that principle; and confirmed Blears, rh Hazel Hanson, rh Mr David that we will bring the draft document before Parliament Blenkinsop, Tom Harris, Mr Tom at the earliest possible opportunity. I appreciate that he Blomfield, Paul Havard, Mr Dai would have liked to see it sooner, but I hope he Blunkett, rh Mr David Hendrick, Mark acknowledges the very considerable steps we have taken Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Hepburn, Mr Stephen in this regard. Brennan, Kevin Hermon, Lady Brown, rh Mr Gordon Heyes, David Vernon Coaker: Before I comment on the Minister’s Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hillier, Meg remarks, I would like to thank my hon. Friend the Bryant, Chris Hilling, Julie Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) for his support on Buck, Ms Karen Hodge, rh Margaret the issue of the necessity for this memorandum of Burnham, rh Andy Hodgson, Mrs Sharon understanding. It was interesting that the hon. Member Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hoey, Kate for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) commented Campbell, Mr Alan Hood, Mr Jim Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hopkins, Kelvin on what was said by the hon. Member for Rochester Caton, Martin Hunt, Tristram and Strood (Mark Reckless)—that there was an expectation Chapman, Mrs Jenny Irranca-Davies, Huw of no involvement. That is part of the problem. The Clarke, rh Mr Tom Jackson, Glenda Minister is right to say that the common law position Clwyd, rh Ann Jarvis, Dan precludes interference, but I am trying to deal with what Coaker, Vernon Johnson, rh Alan will happen when the new model comes into effect, Coffey, Ann Johnson, Diana particularly the concern that it will change the parameters Cooper, Rosie Jones, Graham within which the policing model works. Cooper, rh Yvette Jones, Helen Corbyn, Jeremy Jones, Mr Kevan Mark Tami: Given the sort of person who is going to Crausby, Mr David Jones, Susan Elan be elected to the panels, might it not lead to an adversarial Creasy, Stella Joyce, Eric relationship almost from day one? Indeed, the person Cruddas, Jon Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald might have stood on a platform in order to take on the Cryer, John Keeley, Barbara Cunningham, Alex Kendall, Liz chief constable for something he had done. Cunningham, Mr Jim Khan, rh Sadiq Cunningham, Tony Lammy, rh Mr David Vernon Coaker: That is exactly the point. Concerns Curran, Margaret Lavery, Ian have rightly been raised about who will be elected and Dakin, Nic Lazarowicz, Mark the mandate and manifesto on which they are elected, Danczuk, Simon Leslie, Chris and particularly about the possibility of its being imposed Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lewis, Mr Ivan on the chief constable. Those are very real concerns. David, Mr Wayne Lloyd, Tony The Minister knows that there is a general acceptance Davidson, Mr Ian Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn of trying not to define in statute too rigidly. I say Davies, Geraint Love, Mr Andrew sincerely that I appreciate he is acting in good faith. I De Piero, Gloria Lucas, Caroline did not say that he had promised to bring the matter Dobbin, Jim Lucas, Ian before us on Report. My expectation was that he might Dobson, rh Frank Mactaggart, Fiona have been able to do so, but he did not say that and I Docherty, Thomas Mahmood, Shabana Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Mann, John know that he has acted in good faith. Doran, Mr Frank Marsden, Mr Gordon The Minister seems to have moved again in respect of Dowd, Jim McCabe, Steve this new clause. To be fair, it shows the difficulty of Doyle, Gemma McCann, Mr Michael trying to navigate through this area, which is one of the Dromey, Jack McCarthy, Kerry most important parts of the Bill. None the less, I noted Durkan, Mark McClymont, Gregg that the Minister said that he “may” decide that it is Eagle, Ms Angela McDonnell, John necessary to include a statutory legislative provision on Edwards, Jonathan McGovern, Alison which to base the protocol. I agree with the right hon. Efford, Clive McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd: it is essential for the Elliott, Julie McKechin, Ann Bill to contain a requirement with regard to the protocol. Ellman, Mrs Louise Meacher, rh Mr Michael Evans, Chris Mearns, Ian Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. Farrelly, Paul Miliband, rh David The House divided: Ayes 216, Noes 311. Field, rh Mr Frank Miller, Andrew Fitzpatrick, Jim Mitchell, Austin Division No. 243] [5.10 pm Flello, Robert Moon, Mrs Madeleine Flynn, Paul Morden, Jessica AYES Fovargue, Yvonne Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Abbott, Ms Diane Allen, Mr Graham Gapes, Mike Morris, Grahame M. Abrahams, Debbie Bain, Mr William Gilmore, Sheila (Easington) Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Balls, rh Ed Glass, Pat Mudie, Mr George Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Banks, Gordon Glindon, Mrs Mary Munn, Meg Alexander, Heidi Barron, rh Mr Kevin Godsiff, Mr Roger Murphy, rh Mr Jim Ali, Rushanara Bayley, Hugh Goggins, rh Paul Murphy, rh Paul 421 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 422 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill Murray, Ian Smith, Angela Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hurd, Mr Nick Nandy, Lisa Smith, Nick Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jackson, Mr Stewart Nash, Pamela Smith, Owen Dunne, Mr Philip James, Margot Onwurah, Chi Spellar, rh Mr John Ellis, Michael Javid, Sajid Osborne, Sandra Straw, rh Mr Jack Ellison, Jane Jenkin, Mr Bernard Owen, Albert Stringer, Graham Ellwood, Mr Tobias Johnson, Gareth Pearce, Teresa Stuart, Ms Gisela Elphicke, Charlie Johnson, Joseph Perkins, Toby Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Eustice, George Jones, Andrew Phillipson, Bridget Tami, Mark Evans, Graham Jones, Mr David Pound, Stephen Thomas, Mr Gareth Evans, Jonathan Jones, Mr Marcus Qureshi, Yasmin Thornberry, Emily Evennett, Mr David Kelly, Chris Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Timms, rh Stephen Fabricant, Michael Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Reed, Mr Jamie Trickett, Jon Fallon, Michael Kirby, Simon Reeves, Rachel Turner, Karl Farron, Tim Knight, rh Mr Greg Reynolds, Emma Twigg, Derek Featherstone, Lynne Kwarteng, Kwasi Riordan, Mrs Linda Umunna, Mr Chuka Field, Mr Mark Laing, Mrs Eleanor Robertson, John Vaz, Valerie Foster, rh Mr Don Lamb, Norman Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Walley, Joan Fox,rhDrLiam Lancaster, Mark Rotheram, Steve Watts, Mr Dave Francois, rh Mr Mark Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Roy, Mr Frank Wicks, rh Malcolm Freeman, George Latham, Pauline Roy, Lindsay Williams, Hywel Freer, Mike Laws, rh Mr David Ruane, Chris Williamson, Chris Fullbrook, Lorraine Lee, Jessica Ruddock, rh Joan Wilson, Phil Fuller, Richard Lee, Dr Phillip Sarwar, Anas Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Gale, Mr Roger Leech, Mr John Seabeck, Alison Wood, Mike Garnier, Mr Edward Lefroy, Jeremy Shannon, Jim Woodcock, John Garnier, Mark Leigh, Mr Edward Sharma, Mr Virendra Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Gauke, Mr David Leslie, Charlotte Sheerman, Mr Barry Wright, David Gibb, Mr Nick Lewis, Brandon Sheridan, Jim Wright, Mr Iain Gilbert, Stephen Lewis, Dr Julian Shuker, Gavin Tellers for the Ayes: Glen, John Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Skinner, Mr Dennis Jonathan Reynolds and Goldsmith, Zac Lilley, rh Mr Peter Smith, rh Mr Andrew Mr David Anderson Goodwill, Mr Robert Lloyd, Stephen Gove, rh Michael Lopresti, Jack Graham, Richard Lord, Jonathan NOES Grant, Mrs Helen Loughton, Tim Adams, Nigel Burley, Mr Aidan Grayling, rh Chris Luff, Peter Afriyie, Adam Burns, Conor Green, Damian Lumley, Karen Aldous, Peter Burns, rh Mr Simon Greening, Justine Macleod, Mary Amess, Mr David Burrowes, Mr David Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Main, Mrs Anne Andrew, Stuart Burt, Alistair Griffiths, Andrew May, rh Mrs Theresa Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Burt, Lorely Gummer, Ben Maynard, Paul Bacon, Mr Richard Byles, Dan Gyimah, Mr Sam McCartney, Jason Baker, Norman Cairns, Alun Halfon, Robert McCartney, Karl Baker, Steve Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hames, Duncan McIntosh, Miss Anne Baldry, Tony Carmichael, Neil Hammond, Stephen McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Baldwin, Harriett Carswell, Mr Douglas Hancock, Matthew McPartland, Stephen Barclay, Stephen Cash, Mr William Hancock, Mr Mike McVey, Esther Baron, Mr John Chishti, Rehman Hands, Greg Menzies, Mark Barwell, Gavin Clark, rh Greg Harper, Mr Mark Mercer, Patrick Bebb, Guto Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Harrington, Richard Metcalfe, Stephen Beith, rh Sir Alan Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Harris, Rebecca Miller, Maria Bellingham, Mr Henry Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hart, Simon Mills, Nigel Berry, Jake Collins, Damian Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Milton, Anne Binley, Mr Brian Colvile, Oliver Hayes, Mr John Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Blackman, Bob Cox, Mr Geoffrey Heald, Mr Oliver Moore, rh Michael Blackwood, Nicola Crabb, Stephen Heath, Mr David Mordaunt, Penny Blunt, Mr Crispin Crockart, Mike Heaton-Harris, Chris Morgan, Nicky Boles, Nick Crouch, Tracey Hemming, John Morris, Anne Marie Bone, Mr Peter Davies, David T. C. Henderson, Gordon Morris, David Bottomley, Sir Peter (Monmouth) Herbert, rh Nick Morris, James Bradley, Karen Davies, Glyn Hinds, Damian Mosley, Stephen Brady, Mr Graham Davies, Philip Hoban, Mr Mark Mowat, David Brake, Tom Davis, rh Mr David Hollingbery, George Murrison, Dr Andrew Bray, Angie de Bois, Nick Hollobone, Mr Philip Neill, Robert Brazier, Mr Julian Dinenage, Caroline Holloway, Mr Adam Newmark, Mr Brooks Bridgen, Andrew Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hopkins, Kris Newton, Sarah Brine, Mr Steve Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Howarth, Mr Gerald Nokes, Caroline Brokenshire, James Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Howell, John Nuttall, Mr David Brooke, Annette Dorries, Nadine Hughes, rh Simon O’Brien, Mr Stephen Bruce, Fiona Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Offord, Mr Matthew Bruce, rh Malcolm Drax, Richard Hunter, Mark Ollerenshaw, Eric Buckland, Mr Robert Duddridge, James Huppert, Dr Julian Opperman, Guy 423 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 424 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill Ottaway, Richard Stewart, Iain (5) If, following such rejection, the panel and the police and Parish, Neil Stewart, Rory crime commissioner agree within 14 days a proposed precept, Patel, Priti Stride, Mel then the police and crime commissioner shall issue that proposed Paterson, rh Mr Owen Stunell, Andrew precept as the precept for the financial year. Pawsey, Mark Sturdy, Julian (6) Otherwise the panel shall propose an alternative precept, Penning, Mike Swales, Ian and provision shall be made by the participating authorities for a Penrose, John Swayne, Mr Desmond referendum across the relevant police force area to determine Percy, Andrew Swinson, Jo whether the precept proposed by the commissioner, or the Perry, Claire Syms, Mr Robert alternative precept proposed by the panel, shall be fixed as the Phillips, Stephen Tapsell, Sir Peter precept for the financial year. Pickles, rh Mr Eric Teather, Sarah (7) The Secretary of State may make regulations with regard Pincher, Christopher Thurso, John to the timing of the provisions of this Clause and the procedures Poulter, Dr Daniel Timpson, Mr Edward that are to be followed in respect of a referendum described in Prisk, Mr Mark Tomlinson, Justin sub-Clause (6).’.—(Mark Reckless.) Pritchard, Mark Tredinnick, David Pugh, John Truss, Elizabeth Brought up, and read the First time. Raab, Mr Dominic Turner, Mr Andrew Randall, rh Mr John Tyrie, Mr Andrew Reckless, Mark Uppal, Paul Mark Reckless: I beg to move, That the clause be Redwood, rh Mr John Vaizey, Mr Edward read a Second time. Rees-Mogg, Jacob Vickers, Martin Reevell, Simon Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Reid, Mr Alan Walker, Mr Charles Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With this it Robertson, Hugh Walker, Mr Robin will be convenient to discuss the following: Robertson, Mr Laurence Wallace, Mr Ben Amendment 151, in clause 28, page 21, line 9, leave Rogerson, Dan Walter, Mr Robert out ‘5 or’. Rosindell, Andrew Ward, Mr David Rudd, Amber Watkinson, Angela Amendment 152, page 112, line 15, leave out Schedule 5. Russell, Bob Wharton, James Rutley, David Wheeler, Heather Sanders, Mr Adrian White, Chris Mark Reckless: New clause 6 deals with the police Sandys, Laura Whittaker, Craig and crime panel and, specifically, the powers that it may Scott, Mr Lee Whittingdale, Mr John or may not have in respect of assessing and setting the Selous, Andrew Wiggin, Bill precept. Ever since I first considered the issue of elected Shapps, rh Grant Williams, Mr Mark commissioners and their proper role, I have found the Sharma, Alok Williams, Roger issue of budget setting particularly knotty and difficult. Shelbrooke, Alec Williams, Stephen As a strong proponent of elected commissioners, I see a Simmonds, Mark Williamson, Gavin good argument for giving them the power to set the Simpson, Mr Keith Willott, Jenny precept and the budget, and just letting them get on Skidmore, Chris Wilson, Mr Rob with that. I can see the argument that they have the Smith, Miss Chloe Wollaston, Dr Sarah mandate, so surely they should make the decision. Smith, Henry Wright, Simon Smith, Julian Yeo, Mr Tim However, I have at least a slight concern about giving Smith, Sir Robert Young, rh Sir George such significant budget-setting power over a whole electoral Soames, Nicholas Zahawi, Nadhim term to one individual. That is why I am attracted to Spencer, Mr Mark some of the ideas we have heard, including from colleagues Stephenson, Andrew Tellers for the Noes: on the Liberal Democrat Benches, about the police and Stevenson, John Mr Shailesh Vara and crime panel. There has been a very positive, highest Stewart, Bob Jeremy Wright common factor rather than a lowest common denominator approach, and the Bill has been improved through the Question accordingly negatived. interchange of ideas between Conservative and Liberal Democrat Members. New Clause 6 We have heard about the capping arrangements of the Labour party in recent years. There was capping ISSUING PRECEPTS under previous Conservative Governments but it seemed ‘(1) The police and crime commissioner must notify the to become almost standard in Labour’s 13 years in relevant police and crime panel (the “panel”) of the precept government for Ministers to set a number—it was never which the commissioner is proposing to issue for the financial year (the “proposed precept”). quite clear how they determined that number—over which anything, regardless of the circumstances and (2) The panel must review the proposed precept and make a however low the council tax base, was capped by central report to the commissioner on the proposed precept, which may include recommendations, including as to the proposed precept. Government. That approach seems wrong to me and we have a proposal to deal with it in relation to local (3) The commissioner must respond in writing to the panel, government: instead of having a Secretary of State—I either to accept the recommendations, in full or in part, or to reject them, and to state whether the proposed precept is revised assume for Communities and Local Government—capping or unchanged following consideration of the panel’s report. a council above a certain level, that Secretary of State would have reserve powers to require a local referendum (4) The proposed precept will then be fixed as the precept under section 40 of the Local Government Act 1992 unless the in an area where he considered an increase to be excessive. panel rejects the proposed precept by at least three-quarters of That strikes me as a reasonably sensible balance, and the persons who are members of the panel at such time voting for certainly an improvement on the status quo and the such rejection. current capping power. 425 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 426 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill Dr Huppert: This issue is effectively about the principle when or where there would be a referendum and the of capping, which causes real problems. Is my hon. Secretary of State’s involvement. That is one of the Friend aware, in the local government context, of councils issues, because it is envisaged in the Localism Bill that in Cambridgeshire that used to charge zero council tax the Secretary of State will have referendum-calling powers and were prevented by capping from charging any at and will presumably use regulations to determine how all? We do not want the same sort of ridiculous problems that happens. It is envisaged in the Police Reform and happening with police precepts. Social Responsibility Bill that the panel will have a veto and that there will be regulations on that. The crossover Mark Reckless: Yes, I am aware of that issue. The is not clear. There will be a directly elected individual predecessor council to mine in Medway, Rochester upon who will come to office with a great mandate. One of Medway council, similarly had no council tax and when his responsibilities is to set the budget and the precept, Medway took over as a unitary authority, we had one of yet there are two other bodies—the panel and the the lowest council taxes in the country—virtually the Secretary of State; it is not clear whether it is the lowest except for the Scilly Isles at one point. However, Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government we had the same percentage limit as everyone else, so or the Home Secretary—who have at least some locus when central Government put a new burden on local standi in setting the budget. government and we had to fund it as a fixed cost, we were less well-placed to do that because the amount we 5.30 pm could get through a percentage increase was less than We have to trust the commissioner generally to get on other councils that had previously had higher taxes with it. There should be a reserve power, so that in could get. extremis if there is a serious problem with the commissioner A similar regime to that for local councils has applied or if he does something that is completely out of line, to police authorities, but to an extent it has been less the body with that power can come in and mitigate the controversial than that for councils because police problem. However, I am not convinced that we need authorities have not had the same democratic mandate two bodies, with the panel supposedly exercising a veto as local government. There are only nine elected councillors and the Secretary of State possibly requiring a referendum. on my police authority among 17. It is true that the It is not quite clear how those two things work together. majority of those nine must approve the precept as well The new clause would try to achieve greater clarity with as a majority of the 17, but it is certainly less of a a focus on the local and democratic. The Bill refers to democratic mandate than that for local councils in giving the panel a veto, but when I read what the which all the local councillors are elected. I have understood, Minister said about what the regulations would do, it previously, that when the Communities Secretary, rather was not clear that it was a veto. If what is described as a than the Home Secretary, has capped an authority, that veto is exercised, the elected commissioner has to “have has not been popular with the authority, but I have regard to” that. We heard in the preceding debate how understood why it happened. However, I can see the difficult that phrase can be. Having had regard to the attraction of moving from that to a referendum power veto, the commissioner can propose another figure— as we are doing with local government. presumably, it would be at least marginally different—and I think there is a potential problem or issue, which I can set it as the precept for the coming year. hope can be resolved through the Bill or its application, Does the phrase “have regard to” mean that the with bringing in the new body—the local police and commissioner has to do what the panel wants or, at the crime panel. The panel will have a representative from other extreme, is it envisaged that he can just come back every council in the police area, and I particularly with something marginally different, and that is his welcome the involvement of district councils, which decision as the commissioner? Are we saying that we have been so important in developing crime and disorder cannot really make up our mind and that the courts reduction partnerships and community safety partnerships. have to decide all this and there will be litigation? That Their involvement on the ground will be a real advantage: does not strike me as ideal, so I hope that, perhaps in it will bring real insight to the commissioner and the the other place, we will reach agreement on this issue. force and it will pull local government more generally into the new arrangements. We hear a lot about the Dr Huppert: I am interested in the point that the hon. Local Government Association or police authorities Gentleman made about having to use litigation. There not liking the new arrangements, and people who have a is serious concern about what would happen if, when a particular stake in the existing process might say that, budget was set, there was uncertainty and we had to use but the districts coming in is going to be a real gain. court orders. I am sure that he is aware of the cost of There is dispute about how strong the panel will be, rebilling, and there is an important principle that we and its powers are characterised in various ways, but want to set all the amounts of council tax, while we still one of its key powers will be its oversight and scrutiny have council tax, at the same time, rather than send out of the budget. It is proposed that, in extremis, if three multiple letters, which would just add to the cost of that quarters of the panel agree, the panel can exercise what process. is described as a veto in the Bill, and paragraphs 7 and 8 of schedule 5 prescribe that the Secretary of State can Mark Reckless: In my reference to litigation, I was make further regulations on that. In Committee, the alluding to the fact that the prospect of dispute, at least Minister described some of his intentions for the regulations, on the first occasion, given the narrow time scales and but I am a little unclear about that because the regulations the costs of rebilling, would not be a positive thing. I referred to in the Bill seem to be about how that veto have worked closely with my hon. Friend on the Home process will work, whereas quite a lot of the detail that Affairs Committee on the issue—his hon. Friend the the Minister gave to the Committee seemed to refer to Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) is 427 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 428 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill strongly involved in these issues too— and I feel that That arrangement would provide some protection. If there is a significant measure of agreement between us. the commissioner went off in one direction, away from In the coalition, it is important that we decide what we others, it would give some possibility of pulling him want to do, and state that clearly in the Bill and subsequent back, but it would not make him subject to the panel, regulations so that we do not face the prospect of because the commissioner would have the directly elected litigation. mandate, whereas the panel would be appointed. Giving Some Liberal Democrats may like the idea of a the panel the power to require a referendum would be a complete veto for the panel, but I am not sure that sensible way forward. many of my Conservative colleagues would necessarily We may be envisaging a referendum power, but it agree, given that the commissioner has a directly elected seems that we are expecting to import parts of the mandate and the members of the panel are appointed. Localism Bill into the policing environment, when we However, I am convinced that a measure of financial already have a separate police and crime panel as a oversight by the panel and by the councillors from every check on the elected commissioner, whereas we do not council who serve on it would be valuable. It will keep have a similar check in local government. I propose that the commissioner linked in to local government, which the two should be distinct and that the Secretary of is extremely important. The Minister has a criminal State for Communities and Local Government should justice portfolio, and there is extraordinary scope for have the power of referendum for local councils, but in the elected commissioners to act in the wider criminal the policing universe where we are setting up a panel justice area. However, we do not want a great division that will be representative, that panel should be responsible. to open up between local government and the work of In extremis, it would have the power to call a referendum the elected commissioner in criminal justice, so that on the local precept. We therefore would not need the knitting together is important. central oversight and dictation of the Secretary of State in this area. Steve McCabe: I recognise that the hon. Gentleman The new clause would bring greater clarity and provide feels strongly about this element, but if it is valid to the local and democratic arrangements that we need. I argue that the commissioner must be virtually in a commend it to the House. negotiation position with the panel so that they arrive at the right decision on the precept, I do not understand why, in every other respect, the commissioner should be Steve McCabe: I shall be brief. I am intrigued that the able to arrive at his decision independently, with the role hon. Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless) of the panel being simply to scrutinise it. Why does the has tabled the new clause. It is a matter of great regret hon. Gentleman make an exception in relation to the that he was not a member of the Committee that precept? Surely the logic of his argument is that the scrutinised the Bill. What we are beginning to hear in panel should have a different set of powers in relation to his contributions is how much doubt exists in the hearts the commissioner. of Conservative Back Benchers about some of the key elements of the Bill. That was evident in some of his Mark Reckless: The power over the precept is an earlier amendments, but it is extremely evident in this extraordinarily important one, particularly over the group. He is prepared to tolerate a single elected individual whole elected term of the commissioner. Even I, as a having enormous power over the shape and influence of strong supporter of directly elected commissioners, would an area police force over a four-year cycle. He is prepared be slightly nervous about one individual on his own to tolerate a police and crime plan that might change taking those budgetary decisions for a number of years. the shape and direction of the force beyond all recognition. I welcome the involvement of the panel in that, but I do Despite being a loyal and active member of a police not envisage a constant negotiation—[Interruption.] I authority that has massive experience and whose benefits apologise to the House. he regularly tells us about, he is prepared to put up with A three quarters majority will be required. What is all those measures. needed is almost a reserve power, so that if the commissioner The hon. Gentleman realises in his heart the fundamental wants to slash the budget massively against the will of danger that, if the Government persist with their present the local area, or put through really hefty increases, approach to cuts in police funding, at some stage authorities there is some oversight and some way that that can be in parts of the country of the kind he represents will be mitigated. The panel is a sensible body to do that, but on a collision course with the Government. The police we need to be clear what it would then do. Would it veto commissioner will be forced to look at the question of the plans and would the commissioner be obliged to the precept as a means of off-setting the budget cuts accept that, or would it just say, “Go away and think that the force is facing. The hon. Gentleman does not again”? want to be in that position when a single elected police The present wording, “have regard to”, represents an commissioner is able to bring forward a proposal for a intended compromise, but leads to considerable uncertainty. hugely increased precept, because he fears what the As none of us wants to see litigation on this aspect, I am electors in his area will say about that and the repercussions proposing instead that we bolster the local crime panel for himself and his party followers. with a clear power. That will not necessarily be a veto as, if it is, it will be a soft veto. If the panel was seriously Mark Reckless: I must say that that really is not the worried about the precept, there could be a referendum case and has not been my experience. In Kent we have in the local area. The members of the panel would be been able to find significant savings in our budget while appointed by the councils in that area, so those councils protecting the front line and, in the words of our chief would bear the cost of a referendum. They would think constable, have an opportunity to have a more efficient long and hard before calling a referendum if they were and effective force. As an elected Member, I looked to paying for it. constituents in the private sector who are suffering and 429 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 430 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill [Mark Reckless] why, however, some Government Members are happy to swallow all the other elements, but on the key element wanted to see some savings made in the police budget. of finance, want the power to water down the powers My colleagues did not agree this year—they perhaps and take hold of the commissioner. did not have the same direct election focus—but then they did come and realise this and we found significant Dr Huppert: I am still unclear. If the hon. Gentleman savings. It is because we have that democratic element does not support the alternative in the new clause, is he that we are able to find the savings and get the police to saying that he prefers the existing mechanism, which operate more efficiently, and the elected commissioners involves the Secretary of State? Which is he arguing for, should be able to do that even better. or is he arguing against both? Steve McCabe: That democratic element cannot be Steve McCabe: I am saying quite simply that the fundamentally unique in relation to setting the precept nature of the existing powers, as I understand them, but absolutely different in relation to any other aspect would give the Secretary of State the right to intervene. of the work of the commissioner. It is my contention If the Government do not have faith in their own that the people who support the amendment fear what system, it seems right that they should have the power will happen when the precept has to be ratcheted up to to intervene. However, what I do not want is a scheme compensate for the cuts. They know that there will be that says, “We’re in favour of police commissioners, but massive electoral consequences and so are seeking to by the way we’re going to limit their power when it insert a device to denude the commissioner of the one comes to the area where we think there could be electoral power that they fear more than any other. disadvantage for us.”

Dr Huppert: I am not sure that I agree with everything Dr Huppert: It is a pleasure, as ever, to follow the hon. the hon. Gentleman is saying. Does he not agree that Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe). the precept is in some sense absolutely key to what is We have spent much time together on the Bill Committee, happening, because it sets the total envelope of resource on a previous Bill Committee and in the Home Affairs available to a chief constable to do their job? It is one of Select Committee crossing swords on some of these the most fundamental decisions that could be made by issues. I am encouraged by the new clause in the name the commissioner. of the hon. Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless), because it would do some useful things for Steve McCabe: If I was to stand as a candidate for which I argued in Committee. It talks about strengthening police commissioner and was setting out my stall for the the panel. We talked earlier about the Liberal Democrats’ kind of police force I would want to see, I would not initial manifesto commitment to having a strong panel, have to put on my election material the caveat, “By the and there have been negotiations among the different way, I’ll have no power over the fundamental decision sides about how to fit the two models together. However, about funding.” With the greatest respect, I think that the new clause moves in the direction I tend to prefer, so the hon. Gentleman has missed the point. The Government as ever it is a pleasure to work with him. are trying to have it both ways: they want to create The new clause also leans more towards local political commissars to run the police, but they also accountability, which to me is very important. I have want to retain the power to mitigate the risk that the always been a localist—not only since the formation of commissioner might come up with a precept that is the coalition Government—and I think that this policy unacceptable to the electorate. That is classically what is should be about local determination. That was what wrong with the Bill. It is designed to give the commissioner was wrong with capping council taxes. We had councils power in the areas that suit the Government, but at the that could not make sensible decisions owing to capping heart of the Conservative party there is a doubt about powers and because the Secretary of State was too that. The Government are trying to back the proposal remote from what was going on locally. Those councils while simultaneously watering down its key element could not make sensible decisions whether on tiny increases because they fear that the course of action that they in very low council taxes, because those increases went have embarked on will have electoral consequences for above a certain percentage, or on moving from a council them. tax of zero, which was possible in a few rather unusual Michael Ellis: Will the hon. Gentleman confirm whether places, because any increase broke the percentage rule. the previous Labour Government did something very What the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak similar on elected mayors? said was interesting. First, there is the issue about the precept. Why is the precept different from all other Steve McCabe: I am talking about police commissioners, areas? We could adjust a whole lot of different premises, although I am happy to tell the hon. Gentleman that I but the precept is the key. As I said in my intervention, it am not particularly a fan of elected mayors. However, if is what determines how much money is available to the we are going to have mayors, I would have them elected, chief constable. If only one decision could be made by a not imposed under a shadowing arrangement first, commissioner each year, the total amount of cash is because that suggests that there is some doubt about surely the one for which we would want to provide the their validity. If he wants to talk about elected mayors, most control. It is also the one on which there would he should move on to safer ground. not be advice and policy guidance from other bodies on how to operate and what the constraints might be. It is 5.45 pm properly a decision to be taken locally. I have doubts about the intention behind the new There are questions about what one does if a clause. I admire the dedication that the hon. Member commissioner makes a decision that is held to be for Rochester and Strood shows on these issues. I wonder unreasonable by other people locally. This applies whether 431 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 432 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill to a commissioner or a council leader. Whatever the am more comfortable with two thirds. That does not structure, there will always be situations in which there make a huge difference for a typically sized panel, which is disagreement about whether something is being done will have 12 people. We said in Committee that the appropriately. The question is: how do we resolve that difference will be between nine votes and eight votes, disagreement? I was interested in the response that the but it is more useful to look at it the other way. In order hon. Gentleman gave to my question. He seemed to be to stop the veto, the commission would have to get four arguing for the Secretary of State to have that power, or five people either to vote with him or not to be there. but that is precisely the opposite of the localist agenda That makes a bigger difference as the panel gets bigger. that I would like put in place. The Secretary of State The structure of the new clause is more positive than should not be interfering in how the precept is set. They has been described, because it leans towards trying to should do their utmost not to have anything to do with have sensible discussions and negotiations. It starts with it, if possible. They should have a role in setting the a commissioner making a proposal. Then the panel framework, but they should not have the power to say, looks at the proposal and comments on it, before the “That is too much. I’m the Secretary of State and I commissioner works out what he will do. Unless it is say so.” vetoed, the precept is set, but if it is vetoed, it does not Steve McCabe: Perhaps I can clarify matters a fraction go to a referendum straight away. Ultimately, that is for the hon. Gentleman. My point is that the police something that we are all trying to avoid, because of the Minister and the Secretary of State inevitably have associated costs of running unnecessary referendums some responsibilities for the police that go beyond and the risk of re-billing, which is a particular problem localism, as was discussed extensively in Committee. In with this issue and capping. There is then another fact, if I recall rightly, we discussed what would happen opportunity, over 14 days, for the two sides to negotiate if the budget was set too low and therefore did not and see whether they can come to a more sensible enable the police force to fulfil its obligations. The arrangement that works for both of them. Only if that argument that the Minister advanced at the time was is not possible is a further step taken. that the Secretary of State should have the power to That step is not about saying, “Secretary of State, tell step in. The hon. Gentleman seems to arguing for a us what to do. It’s up to you.” It is about saying that pure form of localism that completely ignores that— what should be done is up to local people. It is up to the commissioner to set one option and the panel to set Mr Speaker: Order. Interventions are becoming another, and then the public will decide which they increasingly lengthy, and they need to be rather shorter. prefer. That is a much more appropriate way of doing things. The panel would act responsibly when it came to Dr Huppert: Thank you, Mr Speaker, although this is cost, with the exception of the independents, who do a matter of great interest, so I have sympathy for the not have that responsibility and are a piece of undemocratic hon. Gentleman, having made my own mistakes earlier grit in the system. However, it will be local decision-making this afternoon. I lean towards pure localism. Let us that makes a difference. Local people should have a say remember that the people on the panel making the in how their precept should be set and how their policing decision will be councillors appointed by their local should be run. That is what I would like to see. I am authorities. In Cambridgeshire, for example, I find it delighted that the hon. Member for Rochester and hard to see how, say, the representative from Cambridge Strood (Mark Reckless) has moved the new clause for city council could look at a budget that was insufficient discussion, and I hope that the Government will consider to provide the basic policing and say, “Yeah, that’s fine. it carefully. I can’t be bothered to interfere with this one.” I do not have that lack of faith in our local councils or our local democratic system. I have concerns, although I prefer Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): It feels like I have the new clause to the original proposals, under which entered into a meeting of the Home Affairs Committee, the Secretary of State would have had a strong role. which is where I was yesterday, but I am not going to However, I do not entirely agree with everything in the talk about the Metropolitan police in quite the same new clause. In particular, I am not comfortable with the way today. idea of having to have a three-quarters majority, which I sympathise with some of the arguments about we discussed in Committee, as Members will know. I localism which have been advanced by the hon. Members tend towards a somewhat lower figure. for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless) and for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), who spoke in favour of the Michael Ellis: My hon. Friend has misgivings about new clause, but I say to them that, although there may having a 75% majority, but does he not feel that it ought be a natural constituency in some police authorities, in to be that high, because that is what would be required many there is not. In the South Wales police area, for to overrule a democratically elected figure, which ought instance, it is not easy to conceive of a single constituency to be a severe circumstance and rare happening? of interest. The area does not exist in any other denomination, as it were, and it crosses local authority Dr Huppert: It is important to remember that, with boundaries, brings together Swansea and Cardiff, which the exception of the two independents—another example is something extraordinary in itself, and brings the of how I would not have designed the system—the valleys together with two of the three big cities of south majority of panel members will be democratically elected, Wales, so it would be very difficult to come to a really representing their councils in their system. They are not local idea. directly democratically elected, but they are indirectly democratically elected. As I am sure the hon. Gentleman The new clause is primarily about money, however, so will know, the model in London is a two-thirds majority I want to ask the Minister a few questions. I realise that for scrutiny of a democratically elected individual, so I he may not be able to answer this evening, but I hope 433 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 434 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill [Chris Bryant] Dr Huppert: Will the Minister give way? that he will write to me on some of these matters, Nick Herbert: I do not have time, I am afraid. because they are—in relation to chapter 6, in particular— As we envisage the situation, the public will be able to quite important. decide whether to go with the police and crime The Bill partially determines the way in which somebody commissioner’s precept, but only when a precept is is elected, but there is a great deal more work to be done excessive. Under the changes that my hon. Friend the on exactly how the electoral system will work—for Member for Rochester and Strood proposes, however, precisely the reason that I mentioned: the constituencies the public would decide every time a panel vetoed a do not exist. New constituencies are being created, and precept, unless the commissioner and the panel were we need to ensure that, in terms of how elections are able to reach an agreement within two weeks of the managed, there is some consistency within the constituency vote. We have not gone down that route, despite considering that we create. I just wonder whether— it very carefully, because referendums are very expensive and the police and crime commissioner would have to Mr Speaker: Order. Can I just gently point out to the pay for them on each occasion. If the commissioner’s hon. Member for Rhondda that it is on the subject of amended precept is not excessive within the Localism precepts that he will want to focus his remarks? Bill definition, regulations will require the proposal to go again before the panel. Following that, the police Chris Bryant: I know I am chancing my arm, Mr Speaker, and crime commissioner will be able to set the precept but I cannot chance it anywhere else on Report, and without a referendum. He or she or must consider the these issues have not yet been covered. panel’s recommendations. Where the panel has voted Of course, the issue of precepts is fundamentally again to reject that precept, he or she must publish the about money. panel’s alternative precept and its reasons and must set out in the same document why he or she did not Mr Speaker: Order. Can I just remind the hon. implement the panel’s proposals. Gentleman that there will be an opportunity on Third I accept that the public must have a role in deciding Reading for him to dilate? Whether that is convenient what precept they pay, and under our policy they will for him is unknown to me—but it might be appropriate. have one, or potentially two, opportunities to do this—once when they elect their police and crime commissioner, Chris Bryant: Mr Speaker, I do not know whether and again when a police and crime commissioner sets you really want me to dilate at any point. an excessive precept. I was merely trying to say that, on the matter of money, which is the point at hand, there is a question 6pm about how any commissioner would be able to make Debate interrupted (Programme Order, this day). sure that in advance of future elections there was enough money to be able to pay for the process of explaining to The Speaker put forthwith the Question already proposed the electorate the supplementary voting system, which from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), That the will not have been used in many other parts of the clause be read a Second time. country. So, I would be grateful if the Minister were Question negatived. able to expand on how he will achieve that, on the The Speaker then put forthwith the Questions necessary precise powers that will be available to the Electoral for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that Commission and on when he will bring forward time (Standing Order No. 83E). supplementary powers in relation to that. Having chanced my arm as far as I think you will allow, Mr Speaker, I surrender to the rest of the debate. Clause 5

Nick Herbert: In the three minutes that are now POLICE AND CRIME COMMISSIONERS TO ISSUE POLICE available to me, I will have to try to explain why my hon. AND CRIME PLANS Friend’s approach is interesting but wrong in relation to Amendments made: 6, page 5, line 32, at end insert how the precept is dealt with. ‘if, and to the extent that, the plan or variation is different I explained in Committee the process following a from the draft prepared in accordance with subsection (6)’. veto, and the Home Secretary will set that out in regulations. Amendment 7, page 6, line 11, after ‘plan’, insert ‘or They will require, as the amendment would, that the variation’.—(Nick Herbert.) police and crime commissioner considers the panel’s recommendations and then proposes an amended precept, which must take the panel’s recommendations into account. Clause 6 This is where the Bill diverges from the proposed changes, however. Under the regulations that we propose, MAYOR’S OFFICE FOR POLICING AND CRIME TO ISSUE we say that, if the amended precept is “excessive” under POLICE AND CRIME PLANS the definition in the Localism Bill, the police and crime Amendments made: 8, page 6, line 44, at end insert commissioner will set the precept but a referendum will be triggered. The panel will not be able to prevent that, ‘if, and to the extent that, the plan or variation is different from the draft prepared in accordance with subsection (6)’. but it will be able to propose an alternative precept with accompanying reasons that will have to be published. Amendment 9, page 7, line 12, leave out ‘and (7) to The public will then have to decide—having both sides (8A)’ and insert of the story. ‘(7) to (8A), and (10) to (12)’.—(Nick Herbert.) 435 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 436 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill Clause 10 Clause 29

CO-OPERATIVE WORKING POWER TO REQUIRE ATTENDANCE AND INFORMATION Amendments made: 10, page 10, line 4, leave out ‘in’ Amendment made: 20, page 21, line 33, at end insert— and insert ‘for’. ‘( ) Nothing in subsection (1) requires a member of the police Amendment 11, page 10, line 27, at end insert— and crime commissioner’s staff to give any evidence, or produce ‘“functions” does not include functions which are any document, which discloses advice given to the commissioner (Nick Herbert.) exercisable only in relation to Wales and relate to by that person.’.— matters in relation to which the Welsh Ministers have functions;’.—(Nick Herbert.) Clause 30

Clause 18 SUSPENSION OF POLICE AND CRIME COMMISSIONER Amendment made: 14, page 22, line 16, leave out ‘of DELEGATION OF FUNCTIONS BY POLICE AND CRIME two years or more’and insert ‘exceeding two years’.—(Nick COMMISSIONERS Herbert.) Amendment made: 12, page 14, line 8, after ‘arrange’, insert ‘under this section’.—(Nick Herbert.) Clause 103

Clause 19 INTERPRETATION OF PART 1 Amendment made: 21, page 64, line 38, leave out DELEGATION OF FUNCTIONS BY MAYOR’S OFFICE FOR ‘established under’ and insert ‘referred to in subsection (1) POLICING AND CRIME of’.—(Nick Herbert.) Amendment made: 13, page 15, line 8, leave out from ‘of’ to end of line 9 and insert ‘the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime which is, in New Schedule 1 accordance with subsection (1), exercisable by the Deputy Mayor for Policing and Crime.’.—(Nick Herbert.) ‘POLICE AND CRIME PANELS

Clause 25 PART 1

OTHER GRANTS ETC UNDER POLICE ACT 1996 TYPE OF PANEL WHICH POLICE AREA IS TO HAVE Amendment made: 15, page 19, line 20, leave out England sub-paragraph (ii).—(Nick Herbert.) 1 (1) Each police area in England, other than the metropolitan police district, is to have a police and crime panel established and maintained in accordance with Part 2 of this Schedule. Clause 28 (2) But the Secretary of State may, by order, provide that any such police area is to have (for as long as the order has effect) a police and crime panel established and maintained in accordance POLICE AND CRIME PANELS OF LOCAL AUTHORITIES with Part 3 of this Schedule (instead of a panel established and Amendments made: 16, page 20, line 22, leave out maintained in accordance with Part 2). subsection (1) and insert— (3) The Secretary of State may make an order under ‘(1) Each police area, other than the metropolitan police sub-paragraph (2) in relation to a single-authority police area district, is to have a police and crime panel established and only if the Secretary of State is of the opinion that the relevant maintained in accordance with Schedule (Police and crime local authority has failed to nominate or appoint one or more of panels) (police and crime panels).’. its councillors as members of the panel in accordance with paragraphs 6 and 9. Amendment 17, page 20, line 33, leave out ‘elected local policing body’ and insert ‘police and crime (4) The Secretary of State may make an order under commissioner’. sub-paragraph (2) in relation to a multi-authority police area only if the Secretary of State is of the opinion that all the Amendment 18, page 21, line 12, leave out from relevant local authorities have (whether at the same time or at ‘commissioner’ to end of line 15 and insert— different times) failed to nominate or appoint one or more of their councillors as members of the panel— ‘(6A) The police and crime panel for a police area in England must send copies of any such reports or recommendations to (a) in accordance with paragraphs 7 and 9 (in the case of a each local authority whose area falls wholly or partly within the police area which covers ten or more local authorities), police area.’. or Amendment 19, page 21, line 18, leave out from (b) in accordance with paragraphs 8 and 9 (in the case of a beginning to end of line 28 and insert— police area which covers nine or fewer local authorities). ‘(8) Schedule (Police and crime panels) (police and crime Wales panels) has effect. 2 Each police area in Wales is to have a police and crime panel (9) In this section “local authority” means a county council or established and maintained in accordance with Part 3 of this a district council.’.—(Nick Herbert.) Schedule. 437 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 438 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill

PART 2 (3) A relevant local authority may not make a nomination under this paragraph if, and for as long as, a notice given to the authority by the Secretary of State under paragraph 10(8) is in PANELS ESTABLISHED BY LOCAL AUTHORITIES force. Establishment and maintenance of panels (4) In this paragraph— 3 (1) This Part of this Schedule applies in relation to each “appropriate number” means the number that is equal police area in England (other than the metropolitan police to the difference between— district), unless an order under paragraph 1(2) has effect in (a) the full complement; and relation to the police area. (b) the number of appointed members of the (2) The local authority or local authorities which such a police panel; area covers must— “full complement” means ten members. (a) establish and maintain a police and crime panel for the police area, and Police area covering ten or more local authorities: nomination by local authority (b) make the panel arrangements (see paragraph 23) for the police and crime panel. 7 (1) This paragraph applies in relation to the police and crime panel for a police area which covers ten or more local authorities. (3) In the case of a multi-authority police area, all the relevant local authorities must agree to the making or modification of the (2) In a case where— panel arrangements. (a) the number of appointed members of the police and (4) In the following provisions of this Part of this Schedule, a crime panel is less than the full complement, and reference to a police and crime panel is a reference to a panel (b) there is no member of the panel who was appointed by established and maintained in accordance with this paragraph. a particular relevant local authority, Membership and status the authority may nominate one of its councillors to be a member of the police and crime panel. 4 (1) A police and crime panel for a police area is to consist of the following members— (3) A relevant local authority may not make a nomination (a) the relevant number of persons properly appointed as under this paragraph if, and for as long as, a notice given to the members of the panel; and authority by the Secretary of State under paragraph 10(8) is in force. (b) two members co-opted by the panel. (4) In this paragraph, “full complement” means the number of (2) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1), the “relevant appointed members which the panel is to have by virtue of number” is— paragraph 4(1)(a). (a) ten (if the police area covers ten or fewer local Multi-authority police area covering nine or fewer local authorities); or authorities: nomination by local authority (b) the number that is equal to the number of local authorities which the police area covers (if the police 8 (1) This paragraph applies in relation to the police and crime area covers eleven or more local authorities). panel for a multi-authority police area which covers nine or fewer local authorities. (3) A police and crime panel is— (2) In a case where— (a) a committee of the relevant local authority (if it is the panel for a single-authority police area), or (a) the number of appointed members of the police and crime panel is less than the full complement, (b) a joint committee of the relevant local authorities (if it is the panel for a multi-authority police area). (b) a particular relevant local authority does not have power under the panel arrangements to appoint an (4) A police and crime panel may not exercise any functions extra member of the panel (see paragraph 5(2)), and other than those conferred by this Act. (c) there is no member of the panel who was appointed by Persons properly appointed as members of panels the authority, 5 (1) In this Part of this Schedule, a reference to a person the authority may nominate one of its councillors to be a properly appointed as a member of a police and crime panel is a member of the police and crime panel. reference to— (3) In a case where— (a) a person nominated by a relevant local authority to be a member of the panel, and appointed by the authority (a) the number of appointed members of the police and as a member of the panel, in accordance with paragraphs crime panel is less than the full complement, 6 and 9, paragraphs 7 and 9, or paragraphs 8 and 9, or (b) a particular relevant local authority has power under (b) a person nominated by the Secretary of State to be a the panel arrangements to appoint one or more extra member of the panel, and appointed by the Secretary members of the panel (see paragraph 5(2)), and of State as a member of the panel, in accordance (c) the number of members of the panel who are members with paragraph 10. by virtue of appointment by the authority is less than (2) In the case of the police and crime panel for a multi-authority the authority’s quota of members, police area which covers nine or fewer local authorities, the panel the authority may nominate the permitted number of its arrangements must make provision as to the relevant local authority councillors to be members of the police and crime panel. or authorities who are to have power to appoint the extra members (4) A relevant local authority may not make a nomination of the panel (see paragraph 8(3)(b)). under this paragraph if, and for as long as, a notice given to the (3) For that purpose “extra members” means the number of authority by the Secretary of State under paragraph 10(8) is in members of the panel produced by this calculation— force. where L is the number of local authorities which the police (5) In this paragraph, in relation to a police and crime panel area covers. and a relevant local authority— Single-authority police area: nomination by local authority “full complement” means ten members; 6 (1) This paragraph applies in relation to the police and crime “permitted number” means the number that is equal to panel for a single-authority police area. the difference between— (2) If the number of appointed members of the police and (a) the authority’s quota of members; and crime panel is less than the full complement, the relevant local (b) the number of members of the panel who are authority may nominate the appropriate number of its members by virtue of appointment by the councillors to be members of the police and crime panel. authority; 439 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 440 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill “quota of members” means the number of members the Secretary of State may give the authority notice that the calculated by adding one to the number of extra Secretary of State is satisfied as mentioned in paragraph (a) of members of the panel which the authority has this sub-paragraph. power to appoint under the panel arrangements (9) A notice given under sub-paragraph (8) may be withdrawn (see paragraph 5(2)). by the Secretary of State at any time. Appointment after nomination by local authority (10) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1)(b)(i), it is 9 (1) This paragraph applies where a relevant local authority irrelevant that a relevant local authority which has failed to makes a nomination under paragraph 6, 7 or 8. nominate or appoint a councillor as a member of the panel— (2) If the nominee accepts the nomination, the relevant local (a) may have power under any of paragraphs 6 to 9 to authority may appoint the nominated councillor as a member of make a further nomination; or the panel. (b) is complying with, or has complied with, the panel arrangements relating to that panel. (3) If the nominee does not accept the nomination, the relevant local authority may nominate another of its councillors (11) In this paragraph— to be a member of the police and crime panel (and “appropriate number” means the number that is equal sub-paragraph (2) or this sub-paragraph applies accordingly, as if to the difference between— the nomination were made under paragraph 6, 7 or 8). (a) the full complement; and Failure of local authority to appoint member: nomination and (b) the number of appointed members of the appointment by Secretary of State panel; 10 (1) This paragraph applies if the Secretary of State is “full complement” means the number of appointed satisfied that— members which the panel is to have by virtue of paragraph 4(1)(a). (a) the number of appointed members of a police and crime panel is less than the full complement, and Costs of the panel (b) a relevant local authority (the “defaulting local 11 (1) This paragraph applies to a multi-authority panel. authority”)— (2) The panel arrangements must make provision about— (i) has failed to nominate or appoint one or more of its (a) how the relevant local authorities are to meet the costs councillors as members of the panel in accordance of the panel; and with paragraphs 6 and 9, paragraphs 7 and 9, or (b) insofar as the provision is necessary, how funds paid paragraphs 8 and 9, or (whether by the Secretary of State or otherwise) to (ii) does not have power to make such a nomination meet the costs of the panel are to be paid to, or and appointment because of paragraph 6(3), 7(3) distributed between, the relevant local authorities. or 8(4). (2) The Secretary of State must nominate the appropriate PART 3 number of persons who are councillors of relevant local authorities to be members of the police and crime panel. PANELS ESTABLISHED BY THE SECRETARY OF STATE (3) Sub-paragraph (4) or (5) applies in relation to each Establishment and maintenance of panels nomination which the Secretary of State is required to make under sub-paragraph (2). 12 (1) This Part of this Schedule applies in relation to— (a) each police area in Wales, and (4) If the nominee accepts the nomination, the Secretary of State must appoint the nominated councillor as a member of the (b) each police area in England in relation to which an panel. order under paragraph 1(2) has effect. (5) If the nominee does not accept the nomination, the Secretary (2) The Secretary of State must— of State must nominate another person who is a councillor of a (a) establish and maintain a separate police and crime relevant local authority to be a member of the police and crime panel for each police area to which this Part of this panel (and sub-paragraph (4) or this sub-paragraph applies Schedule applies, and accordingly, as if the nomination were made under sub-paragraph (b) make the panel arrangements (see paragraph 23) for (2)). each police and crime panel established and (6) In complying with this paragraph in relation to the police maintained in accordance with this paragraph. and crime panel for a multi-authority police area, the Secretary (3) The Secretary of State may make different panel of State must secure (as far as is reasonably practicable) that the arrangements for different police and crime panels. fair representation objective is met. (4) In the following provisions of this Part of this Schedule, a (7) The “fair representation objective” referred to in sub- reference to a police and crime panel is a reference to a panel paragraph (6) is— established and maintained in accordance with this paragraph. (a) in the case of a police area which covers ten or more Membership and status local authorities, the objective that each relevant 13 (1) A police and crime panel for a police area is to consist of local authority has only one of its councillors as a the following members— member of the panel; (a) the relevant number of persons appointed by the (b) in the case of a police area which covers nine or fewer Secretary of State as members of the panel; and local authorities, the objective that each relevant local authority has at least one of its councillors as a (b) two members co-opted by the panel. member of the panel. (2) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1), the “relevant (8) If the Secretary of State— number” is— (a) is satisfied that a relevant local authority has failed to (a) ten (if the police area covers ten or fewer local nominate or appoint one or more of its councillors as authorities); or members of the panel as mentioned in sub- (b) the number that is equal to the number of local paragraph (1)(b), and authorities which the police area covers (if the police (b) is considering whether to exercise, has decided to area covers eleven or more local authorities). exercise, or has exercised, the power under this (3) A police and crime panel is not a committee or joint paragraph to make a nomination, committee of any local authority or local authorities. 441 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 442 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill Wales: persons appointed by the Secretary of State as members of (4) If the authority fails to make the nomination, or the panels nominee does not accept the nomination, the Secretary of State 14 In this Part of this Schedule, a reference to a person must either— appointed by the Secretary of State as a member of a Welsh (a) ask the authority to make another nomination (and police and crime panel is a reference to— sub-paragraph (2), and sub-paragraph (3) or this (a) a person nominated by a relevant local authority to be sub-paragraph, apply accordingly, as if the request a member of the panel, and appointed by the were made under paragraph 15); or Secretary of State as a member of the panel, in (b) nominate a person who is a councillor of a relevant accordance with paragraph 16(2) to (4)(a), or local authority to be a member of the police and (b) a person nominated by the Secretary of State to be a crime panel. member of the panel, and appointed by the Secretary (5) If the nominee accepts a nomination made under of State as a member of the panel, in accordance sub-paragraph (4)(b), the Secretary of State must appoint the with paragraph 16(4)(b) to (6). nominated councillor as a member of the panel. Wales: Secretary of State to ask local authorities to nominate (6) If the nominee does not accept the nomination, the members of panels Secretary of State must nominate another person who is a 15 (1) This paragraph applies in relation to a Welsh police and councillor of a relevant local authority to be a member of the crime panel if the Secretary of State is satisfied that the number police and crime panel (and sub-paragraph (5) or this of appointed members of the panel is less than the full sub-paragraph applies accordingly, as if the nomination were complement. made under sub-paragraph (4)(b)). (2) In the case of a police and crime panel for a England: persons appointed by the Secretary of State as members single-authority police area, the Secretary of State must ask the of panels relevant local authority to nominate the appropriate number of 17 In this Part of this Schedule, a reference to a person the authority’s councillors to be members of the panel. appointed by the Secretary of State as a member of an English (3) In the case of a police and crime panel for a police and crime panel is a reference to a person who has been multi-authority police area, the Secretary of State must— appointed by the Secretary of State as a member of the panel in accordance with paragraph 18. (a) decide which of the relevant local authorities to ask to make nominations under this sub-paragraph (the England: nomination and appointment of members of panels by “nominating authorities”); Secretary of State (b) decide what number of nominations under this 18 (1) This paragraph applies in relation to an English police sub-paragraph each nominating authority is to be and crime panel if the Secretary of State is satisfied that the asked to make; and number of appointed members of the panel is less than the full (c) ask each nominating authority to nominate that complement. number of the authority’s councillors to be members (2) The Secretary of State must nominate the appropriate of the panel. number of persons who are councillors of relevant local (4) In complying with sub-paragraph (3), the Secretary of authorities to be members of the police and crime panel. State must secure— (3) Sub-paragraph (4) or (5) applies in relation to each (a) that the number of nominations which the nominating nomination which the Secretary of State is required to make authority or authorities are asked to make (when under sub-paragraph (2). taken together) is equal to the appropriate number; (4) If the nominee accepts the nomination, the Secretary of and State must appoint the nominated councillor as a member of the (b) that (as far as is reasonably practicable) the fair panel. representation objective is met. (5) If the nominee does not accept the nomination, the (5) The “fair representation objective” referred to in sub- Secretary of State must nominate another person who is a paragraph (4)(b) is— councillor of a relevant local authority to be a member of the (a) in the case of a police area which covers ten or more police and crime panel (and sub-paragraph (4) or this local authorities, the objective that each relevant sub-paragraph applies accordingly, as if the nomination were local authority has only one of its councillors as a made under sub-paragraph (2)). member of the panel; (6) In this paragraph— (b) in the case of a police area which covers nine or fewer “appropriate number” means the number that is equal local authorities, the objective that each relevant to the difference between— local authority has at least one of its councillors as a (a) the full complement; and member of the panel. (b) the number of appointed members of the (6) In this paragraph— panel; “appropriate number” means the number that is equal “full complement” means the number of appointed to the difference between— members which the panel is to have by virtue of (a) the full complement; and paragraph 13(1)(a). (b) the number of appointed members of the Liabilities of panels panel; 19 (1) All relevant liabilities relating to a police and crime “full complement” means the number of appointed panel are liabilities of the Secretary of State (and accordingly are members which the panel is to have by virtue of not liabilities of any member of the panel). paragraph 13(1)(a). (2) Any expense incurred by a member of a police and crime Wales: consequences of Secretary of State asking local authorities panel— to make nominations (a) in respect of a relevant liability, or 16 (1) This paragraph applies if, under paragraph 15, the (b) otherwise in the exercise of, or purported exercise of, a Secretary of State asks a relevant local authority to nominate a function of the panel, councillor to be a member of a Welsh police and crime panel. is to be borne and repaid by the Secretary of State. (2) The authority may make the nomination. (3) In this paragraph “relevant liability” means a liability (3) If the authority makes the nomination, and the nominee which, but for this paragraph, would be a liability of a member accepts the nomination, the Secretary of State must appoint the of a police and crime panel (whether personally or as a member nominated councillor as a member of the police and crime panel. of that panel) in respect of anything done by— 443 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 444 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill (a) that person in the exercise, or purported exercise, of a (6) The following persons must comply with the panel function of a member of the panel, arrangements relating to a police and crime panel— (b) any other member of the panel in the exercise, or (a) each relevant local authority; purported exercise, of a function of a member of the (b) each member of the police and crime panel. panel, or Rules of procedure (c) the panel in the exercise, or purported exercise, of a function of the panel. 24 (1) A police and crime panel must make rules of procedure for the panel. Provision of financial and other resources (2) A police and crime panel’s rules of procedure must make 20 (1) The Secretary of State may provide financial and other provision about the appointment, resignation and removal of a resources— person to chair the panel. (a) to a police and crime panel in connection with the exercise of the panel’s functions; (3) The police and crime panel’s rules of procedure may, in particular, make provision about— (b) to the members of a police and crime panel in connection with the exercise of their functions; and (a) the method of making decisions, and (c) to one or more of the relevant local authorities covered (b) the formation of sub-committees. by a police area in connection with the exercise of (4) A sub-committee of a police and crime panel may not functions by— co-opt members. (i) such an authority in relation to the police and crime (5) This paragraph is subject to paragraph 26. panel for that police area, Voting by members (ii) that panel, or (iii) the members of that panel. 25 All members of a police and crime panel may vote in proceedings of the panel. (2) The Secretary of State may provide financial or other resources under sub-paragraph (1) subject to conditions. Exercise of special functions (3) In the case of resources provided under sub- 26 (1) The special functions of a police and crime panel may paragraph (1)(c), the conditions which may be imposed include not be discharged by a committee or sub-committee of the panel. conditions requiring a relevant local authority to pass resources (2) In this paragraph “special functions” means the functions to, or share resources with, another relevant local authority. conferred on a police and crime panel by— (4) The power under this paragraph to provide resources is in (a) section 28(2) (scrutiny of police and crime plan); addition to the duty under paragraph 19(2). (b) section 28(3) (scrutiny of annual report); (c) Schedule 5 (issuing precepts); and PART 4 (d) Part 1 of Schedule 8 (scrutiny of appointment of chief constables). GENERAL PROVISIONS Allowances Restrictions on membership of panel 27 The panel arrangements may make provision about the 21 The police and crime commissioner for a police area may payment of allowances to members of the police and crime not be a member of the police and crime panel for the area. panel. 22 A person may not be a co-opted member of the police and Promotion of, and support, for panels crime panel for a police area if the person is any of the following— 28 The panel arrangements must make provision for— (a) a member of the staff of the police and crime (a) the role of the police and crime panel to be promoted; commissioner for that police area; (b) administrative and other support to be given to the (b) a member of the civilian staff of the police force for police and crime panel and its members; that police area; (c) support and guidance to be given to— (c) a member of a local authority which is covered by that (i) members of relevant local authorities, police area; (ii) members of the executives (if any) of relevant local (d) a Member of Parliament; authorities, and (e) a member of the National Assembly for Wales; (iii) officers of relevant local authorities, (f) a member of the Scottish Parliament; in relation to the functions of the police and crime panel. (g) a member of the European Parliament. Validity of proceedings Panel arrangements 29 The validity of the proceedings of a police and crime panel 23 (1) Panel arrangements are arrangements for the is not affected by a vacancy in the membership of the panel or a establishment and maintenance of a police and crime panel. defect in appointment. (2) Panel arrangements must make provision about the Duty to produce balanced panel co-option of, and holding of office by, the two co-opted members 30 (1) In exercising functions under Part 2 or 3 of this of the police and crime panel. Schedule, a relevant local authority must secure that (as far as is (3) Panel arrangements must include provision about— reasonably practicable) the balanced appointment objective is (a) the term of office of appointed members and co-opted met. members of the panel; (2) In exercising functions under Part 2 or 3 of this Schedule, (b) resignation, and removal, of appointed members and the Secretary of State must secure that (as far as is reasonably co-opted members of the panel; practicable) the balanced appointment objective is met. (c) conditions for re-appointment of appointed members (3) The “balanced appointment objective” referred to in this and co-opted members of the panel. paragraph is the objective that the appointed members of a police and crime panel (when taken together)— (4) Panel arrangements may not make rules of procedure for the police and crime panel (as to which see paragraph 24). (a) represent all parts of the relevant police area; (5) Panel arrangements may make different provision for (b) represent the political make-up of— different cases. (i) the relevant local authority, or 445 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 446 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill (ii) the relevant local authorities (when taken together); Regulations about modification etc of functions (c) have the skills, knowledge and experience necessary for 36 (1) The Secretary of State may, by regulations, make the police and crime panel to discharge its functions provision for modifying, suspending, transferring or removing effectively. relevant functions insofar as they are exercisable in relation to police and crime panels in respect of which the Secretary of State 31 In co-opting members, a police and crime panel must secure is, or has been, required to nominate members. that (as far as is reasonably practicable), the appointed and co-opted members of the panel (when taken together) have the (2) In this paragraph, “relevant functions” means functions skills, knowledge and experience necessary for the police and conferred on relevant local authorities or the Secretary of State crime panel to discharge its functions effectively. by this Schedule. Application of other legislation Interpretation 32 (1) The Secretary of State may, by regulations— 37 (1) A reference in this Schedule to a police area which covers a local authority is a reference to a police area whose area (a) modify a relevant enactment in its application to Part 2 is the same as, or includes, all or part of the local authority’s panels, or area. (b) provide for a relevant enactment not to apply to Part 2 (2) The circumstances in which a relevant local authority may panels. be taken, for the purposes of this Schedule, to have failed to (2) The Secretary of State may, by regulations, provide for a nominate or appoint a councillor as a member of a police and relevant enactment to apply (with or without modifications) to crime panel include circumstances where a councillor who is Part 3 panels. nominated and appointed fails to remain as a member of the panel for such a period as the Secretary of State considers (3) In this paragraph— reasonable. “Part 2 panels”means police and crime panels established (3) In this Schedule— and maintained under Part 2 of this Schedule “appointed member” means a member of a police and (which are committees or joint committees of the crime panel by virtue of paragraph 4(1)(a) or relevant local authority or authorities); 13(1)(a); “Part 3 panels”means police and crime panels established “co-opted member” means a member of a police and and maintained under Part 3 of this Schedule crime panel by virtue of paragraph 4(1)(b) or (which are not committees or joint committees of 13(1)(b); any local authority); “councillor”, in relation to local authority, means a “relevant enactment” means an enactment which person who— applies to a committee of a local authority or a (a) is a member of the local authority, or joint committee of local authorities. (b) is the elected mayor of a mayor and cabinet Regulations about notifications executive (within the meaning of Part 2 of the Local Government Act 2000) of a relevant 33 The Secretary of State may, by regulations, make provision local authority; about notifications to be given by persons in relation to— “English police and crime panel” means a police and (a) their compliance, or failure to comply, with any duty crime panel for a police area in England; imposed under this Schedule; or “local authority” means— (b) their exercise, or failure to exercise, any power (a) in relation to England, a county council or a conferred under this Schedule. district council; Regulations about making nominations (b) in relation to Wales, a county council or a county borough council; 34 (1) The Secretary of State may, by regulations, make “multi-authority police area” means a police area provision about— which covers two or more local authorities; (a) the making of nominations (including provision about “panel arrangements” means the arrangements when nominations lapse); referred to in paragraph 23; (b) the notification of nominations (whether to the “relevant local authority”, in relation to a police area, nominee or any other person); and means a local authority which the police area covers; (c) the acceptance and refusal of nominations (including provision about when nominations are to be treated “single-authority police area” means a police area as having been accepted or refused). which covers only one local authority; “Welsh police and crime panel” means a police and (2) In this paragraph “nomination” means a nomination by a crime panel for a police area in Wales.’.—(Nick relevant local authority or the Secretary of State of a person to Herbert.) be a member of a police and crime panel. Brought up. Regulations about making appointments 35 (1) The Secretary of State may, by regulations, make Question put, That the schedule be added to the Bill. provision about— The House divided: Ayes 306, Noes 222. (a) the making of appointments; Division No. 244] [6.1 pm (b) the notification of appointments (whether to the appointee or any other person); and (c) the termination of appointments (including provision AYES about when appointments are to be treated as having Adams, Nigel Baker, Steve been terminated). Afriyie, Adam Baldwin, Harriett (2) In this paragraph “appointment” means— Aldous, Peter Barclay, Stephen (a) the appointment by a relevant local authority or the Amess, Mr David Baron, Mr John Secretary of State of a person as a member of a Andrew, Stuart Barwell, Gavin police and crime panel, and Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Bebb, Guto (b) the co-option by a police and crime panel of a person Bacon, Mr Richard Beith, rh Sir Alan to be a member of the panel. Baker, Norman Bellingham, Mr Henry 447 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 448 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill Berry, Jake Francois, rh Mr Mark Lamb, Norman Redwood, rh Mr John Binley, Mr Brian Freeman, George Lancaster, Mark Rees-Mogg, Jacob Blackman, Bob Freer, Mike Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Reevell, Simon Blackwood, Nicola Fullbrook, Lorraine Latham, Pauline Reid, Mr Alan Blunt, Mr Crispin Fuller, Richard Laws, rh Mr David Robertson, Hugh Boles, Nick Gale, Mr Roger Lee, Jessica Robertson, Mr Laurence Bone, Mr Peter Garnier, Mr Edward Lee, Dr Phillip Rogerson, Dan Bottomley, Sir Peter Garnier, Mark Leech, Mr John Rosindell, Andrew Bradley, Karen Gauke, Mr David Lefroy, Jeremy Rudd, Amber Brady, Mr Graham Gibb, Mr Nick Leigh, Mr Edward Russell, Bob Brake, Tom Gilbert, Stephen Leslie, Charlotte Rutley, David Bray, Angie Glen, John Lewis, Brandon Sanders, Mr Adrian Brazier, Mr Julian Goldsmith, Zac Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Sandys, Laura Bridgen, Andrew Goodwill, Mr Robert Lidington, rh Mr David Scott, Mr Lee Brine, Mr Steve Gove, rh Michael Lilley, rh Mr Peter Selous, Andrew Brokenshire, James Graham, Richard Lloyd, Stephen Shapps, rh Grant Brooke, Annette Grant, Mrs Helen Lopresti, Jack Sharma, Alok Bruce, Fiona Gray, Mr James Lord, Jonathan Shelbrooke, Alec Bruce, rh Malcolm Grayling, rh Chris Loughton, Tim Simpson, Mr Keith Buckland, Mr Robert Green, Damian Luff, Peter Skidmore, Chris Burley, Mr Aidan Greening, Justine Lumley, Karen Smith, Miss Chloe Burns, Conor Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Macleod, Mary Smith, Henry Burns, rh Mr Simon Griffiths, Andrew Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Julian Burrowes, Mr David Gummer, Ben May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Sir Robert Burt, Alistair Gyimah, Mr Sam Maynard, Paul Soames, Nicholas Burt, Lorely Hague, rh Mr William McCartney, Jason Spencer, Mr Mark Byles, Dan Halfon, Robert McCartney, Karl Stephenson, Andrew Cairns, Alun Hames, Duncan McIntosh, Miss Anne Stevenson, John Cameron, rh Mr David Hammond, Stephen McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stewart, Bob Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hancock, Matthew McPartland, Stephen Stewart, Iain Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hancock, Mr Mike McVey, Esther Stewart, Rory Carmichael, Neil Hands, Greg Menzies, Mark Stride, Mel Carswell, Mr Douglas Harper, Mr Mark Metcalfe, Stephen Stunell, Andrew Cash, Mr William Harrington, Richard Miller, Maria Sturdy, Julian Chishti, Rehman Harris, Rebecca Mills, Nigel Swales, Ian Clark, rh Greg Hart, Simon Milton, Anne Swayne, Mr Desmond Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Harvey, Nick Mordaunt, Penny Swinson, Jo Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morgan, Nicky Syms, Mr Robert Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hayes, Mr John Morris, Anne Marie Tapsell, Sir Peter Collins, Damian Heald, Mr Oliver Morris, David Teather, Sarah Colvile, Oliver Heath, Mr David Morris, James Thurso, John Cox, Mr Geoffrey Heaton-Harris, Chris Mosley, Stephen Timpson, Mr Edward Crabb, Stephen Hemming, John Mowat, David Tomlinson, Justin Crockart, Mike Henderson, Gordon Munt, Tessa Tredinnick, David Crouch, Tracey Herbert, rh Nick Murrison, Dr Andrew Truss, Elizabeth Davies, David T. C. Hinds, Damian Neill, Robert Turner, Mr Andrew (Monmouth) Hoban, Mr Mark Newmark, Mr Brooks Tyrie, Mr Andrew Davis, rh Mr David Hollingbery, George Newton, Sarah Uppal, Paul de Bois, Nick Hollobone, Mr Philip Nokes, Caroline Vaizey, Mr Edward Dinenage, Caroline Holloway, Mr Adam Norman, Jesse Vickers, Martin Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hopkins, Kris Nuttall, Mr David Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Howarth, Mr Gerald O’Brien, Mr Stephen Walker, Mr Charles Dorries, Nadine Howell, John Offord, Mr Matthew Walker, Mr Robin Doyle-Price, Jackie Hughes, rh Simon Ollerenshaw, Eric Wallace, Mr Ben Drax, Richard Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Opperman, Guy Walter, Mr Robert Duddridge, James Huppert, Dr Julian Ottaway, Richard Ward, Mr David Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hurd, Mr Nick Parish, Neil Watkinson, Angela Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jackson, Mr Stewart Patel, Priti Weatherley, Mike Dunne, Mr Philip James, Margot Paterson, rh Mr Owen Wharton, James Ellis, Michael Javid, Sajid Pawsey, Mark Wheeler, Heather Ellison, Jane Jenkin, Mr Bernard Penning, Mike White, Chris Ellwood, Mr Tobias Johnson, Gareth Penrose, John Whittaker, Craig Elphicke, Charlie Johnson, Joseph Percy, Andrew Whittingdale, Mr John Eustice, George Jones, Andrew Perry, Claire Wiggin, Bill Evans, Graham Jones, Mr David Phillips, Stephen Williams, Mr Mark Evans, Jonathan Jones, Mr Marcus Poulter, Dr Daniel Williams, Roger Evennett, Mr David Kelly, Chris Prisk, Mr Mark Williams, Stephen Fabricant, Michael Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Pritchard, Mark Williamson, Gavin Farron, Tim Kirby, Simon Pugh, John Wilson, Mr Rob Featherstone, Lynne Knight, rh Mr Greg Raab, Mr Dominic Wollaston, Dr Sarah Field, Mr Mark Kwarteng, Kwasi Randall, rh Mr John Wright, Jeremy Fox,rhDrLiam Laing, Mrs Eleanor Reckless, Mark Wright, Simon 449 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 450 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill Yeo, Mr Tim Tellers for the Ayes: Lucas, Ian Roy, Mr Frank Young, rh Sir George Mr Shailesh Vara and Mactaggart, Fiona Roy, Lindsay Zahawi, Nadhim Mark Hunter Mahmood, Shabana Ruane, Chris Mann, John Ruddock, rh Joan Marsden, Mr Gordon Seabeck, Alison NOES McCabe, Steve Shannon, Jim Abbott, Ms Diane Doyle, Gemma McCann, Mr Michael Sharma, Mr Virendra Abrahams, Debbie Dromey, Jack McCarthy, Kerry Sheerman, Mr Barry Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Durkan, Mark McClymont, Gregg Sheridan, Jim Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Eagle, Ms Angela McDonnell, John Shuker, Gavin Alexander, Heidi Edwards, Jonathan McGovern, Alison Skinner, Mr Dennis Ali, Rushanara Efford, Clive McGovern, Jim Smith, rh Mr Andrew Allen, Mr Graham Elliott, Julie McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Smith, Angela Bailey, Mr Adrian Ellman, Mrs Louise McKechin, Ann Smith, Nick Bain, Mr William Engel, Natascha Meacher, rh Mr Michael Smith, Owen Balls, rh Ed Evans, Chris Mearns, Ian Spellar, rh Mr John Banks, Gordon Farrelly, Paul Miliband, rh David Straw, rh Mr Jack Barron, rh Mr Kevin Field, rh Mr Frank Miliband, rh Edward Stringer, Graham Bayley, Hugh Flello, Robert Miller, Andrew Stuart, Ms Gisela Beckett, rh Margaret Flint, rh Caroline Mitchell, Austin Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Begg, Dame Anne Flynn, Paul Moon, Mrs Madeleine Tami, Mark Bell, Sir Stuart Fovargue, Yvonne Morden, Jessica Thomas, Mr Gareth Benn, rh Hilary Gapes, Mike Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Thornberry, Emily Berger, Luciana Gilmore, Sheila Morris, Grahame M. Timms, rh Stephen Betts, Mr Clive Glass, Pat (Easington) Trickett, Jon Blackman-Woods, Roberta Glindon, Mrs Mary Munn, Meg Blears, rh Hazel Godsiff, Mr Roger Murphy, rh Mr Jim Turner, Karl Blenkinsop, Tom Goggins, rh Paul Murphy, rh Paul Twigg, Derek Blomfield, Paul Greatrex, Tom Murray, Ian Umunna, Mr Chuka Blunkett, rh Mr David Green, Kate Nandy, Lisa Vaz, Valerie Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Greenwood, Lilian Nash, Pamela Walley, Joan Brennan, Kevin Griffith, Nia Onwurah, Chi Watson, Mr Tom Brown, rh Mr Gordon Gwynne, Andrew Osborne, Sandra Watts, Mr Dave Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hain, rh Mr Peter Owen, Albert Wicks, rh Malcolm Brown, Mr Russell Hamilton, Mr David Pearce, Teresa Williams, Hywel Bryant, Chris Hanson, rh Mr David Perkins, Toby Williamson, Chris Buck, Ms Karen Harris, Mr Tom Phillipson, Bridget Wilson, Phil Burnham, rh Andy Havard, Mr Dai Pound, Stephen Winnick, Mr David Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hendrick, Mark Qureshi, Yasmin Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Campbell, Mr Alan Hepburn, Mr Stephen Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Wood, Mike Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hermon, Lady Reed, Mr Jamie Woodcock, John Caton, Martin Heyes, David Reeves, Rachel Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hillier, Meg Reynolds, Emma Wright, David Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hilling, Julie Reynolds, Jonathan Wright, Mr Iain Clwyd, rh Ann Hodge, rh Margaret Riordan, Mrs Linda Coaker, Vernon Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Robertson, John Tellers for the Noes: Coffey, Ann Hoey, Kate Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Graham Jones and Cooper, Rosie Hood, Mr Jim Rotheram, Steve Mr David Anderson Cooper, rh Yvette Hopkins, Kelvin Corbyn, Jeremy Hunt, Tristram Crausby, Mr David Irranca-Davies, Huw Question accordingly agreed to. Creasy, Stella Jackson, Glenda Cruddas, Jon Jarvis, Dan New schedule 1 added to the Bill. Cryer, John Johnson, rh Alan Cunningham, Alex Johnson, Diana Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Helen Schedule 1 Cunningham, Tony Jones, Mr Kevan Curran, Margaret Jones, Susan Elan POLICE AND CRIME COMMISSIONERS Dakin, Nic Joyce, Eric Amendments made: 31, page 104, line 13 leave out Danczuk, Simon Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald ‘qualified’. Darling, rh Mr Alistair Keeley, Barbara Amendment 32, page 104, line 18, leave out from David, Mr Wayne Kendall, Liz beginning to ‘person’ in line 19 and insert Davidson, Mr Ian Khan, rh Sadiq Davies, Geraint Lammy, rh Mr David ‘A person may not be appointed under sub-paragraph (1) to De Piero, Gloria Lavery, Ian act as chief finance officer unless the’.—(Nick Herbert.) Dobbin, Jim Lazarowicz, Mark Dobson, rh Frank Leslie, Chris Schedule 2 Docherty, Thomas Lewis, Mr Ivan Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Lloyd, Tony Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn CHIEF CONSTABLES Doran, Mr Frank Love, Mr Andrew Amendments made: 33, page 106, line 2, leave out Dowd, Jim Lucas, Caroline ‘police and crime commissioner’and insert ‘chief constable’. 451 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 452 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill Amendment 34, page 106, line 18, after ‘force’s’, ‘(a) the body is not satisfied that the responsible insert ‘civilian’. authorities for the area are carrying out their functions under section 6 in an effective and efficient Amendment 35, page 106, line 21, after ‘force’s’, manner, and insert ‘civilian’. (b) the body considers it reasonable and proportionate in Amendment 36, page 106, line 23, after ‘force’s’, all the circumstances to require a report.’. insert ‘civilian’. Amendment 49, page 136, leave out lines 30 to 32.— Amendment 37, page 106, line 24, after ‘force’s’, (Nick Herbert.) insert ‘civilian’.—(Nick Herbert.) Schedule 16

Schedule 3 POLICE REFORM: MINOR AND CONSEQUENTIAL AMENDMENTS MAYOR’S OFFICE FOR POLICING AND CRIME Amendments made: 50, page 163, line 18, at end Amendments made: 38, page 108, line 8, leave out insert— ‘qualified’. ( ) For subsection (2) substitute— Amendment 39, page 108, line 13, leave out sub- (2) In issuing a policing plan, the Common Council must have paragraph (2).—(Nick Herbert.) regard to the strategic policing requirement issued under section 37A.”.’. Schedule 4 Amendment 51, page 167, line 42, at end insert— ‘In section 61 (the Police Negotiating Board for the United COMMISSIONER OF POLICE OF THE METROPOLIS Kingdom), in subsection (1)(a), for “authorities” substitute Amendments made: 40, page 110, line 39, leave out ‘a “persons and bodies”.’. police and crime commissioner’ and insert Amendment 52, page 211, line 5, leave out ‘the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis’. paragraph 355.—(Nick Herbert.) Amendment 135A, page 111, line 5, after ‘force’s’, insert ‘civilian’. Clause 152 Amendment 136, page 111, line 9, after ‘force’s’, RESTRICTION ON ISSUE OF ARREST WARRANTS IN insert ‘civilian’. PRIVATE PROSECUTIONS Amendment 137, page 111, line 11, after ‘force’s’, 6.15 pm insert ‘civilian’. Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): I beg to move Amendment 138, page 111, line 14, after ‘force’s’, amendment 2, page 100, line 10, leave out clause 152. insert ‘civilian’.—(Nick Herbert.) Mr Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss Schedule 6 amendment 154, page 100, line 17, at end insert— ‘(a) A specialist unit shall be established within the Crown POLICE AND CRIME PANELS Prosecution Service, reporting to the Director of Amendment made: 41, page 114, line 29, leave out Public Prosecutions, so as to ensure minimal delay in decisions relating to arrest warrants issued under this Schedule 6.—(Nick Herbert.) section. (b) A specialist unit shall be established within the Schedule 7 Metropolitan Police so as to ensure minimal delay in the issuing of arrest warrants under this section.’. REGULATIONS ABOUT COMPLAINTS AND CONDUCT MATTERS Ann Clwyd: The amendment would remove clause 152. Amendment made: 42, page 121, line 39, leave out At the outset, I should like to say that whatever one’s ‘these purposes’ and insert views on the changes proposed by the clause, it should not be part of the Bill. It is a justice measure in a Home ‘the purposes of sub-paragraph (6)’.—(Nick Herbert.) Office Bill, which is already packed. It would be better if the Government had not crow-barred it into the Bill. Schedule 11 However, I am glad that we have an opportunity to debate the measure, although we cannot debate it to the CRIME AND DISORDER STRATEGIES extent that other Members and I would have liked. Amendments made: 43, page 133, line 24, after ‘areas’, The Government propose to change the law on the insert ‘in England’. procedure for obtaining an arrest warrant in a private Amendment 44, page 135, line 7, leave out subsection (7). prosecution in a universal jurisdiction case. Such cases Amendment 45, page 135, line 28, after ‘commissioner’, are concerned with the gravest crimes against humanity: insert war crimes, torture, genocide and so on. The Government propose that the consent of the Director of Public ‘for a police area in England’. Prosecutions should be required before any such arrest Amendment 46, page 135, line 30, leave out ‘the warrant can be issued. police area of the commissioner’ and insert ‘that police My area of interest is human rights, so it is on the area’. human rights implications of the clause that I shall Amendment 47, page 136, line 2, at end insert ‘, and focus. I object to the clause and the Government’s (c) after “section 6 above” insert “, apart from devolved proposals because they will undermine the UK’s standing Welsh functions (as defined by section 5(7)),”.’. on international human rights issues. The current situation Amendment 48, page 136, leave out lines 6 to 17 and in Libya and recent events there and elsewhere in north insert— Africa and the middle east provide a helpful context for 453 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 454 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill [Ann Clwyd] Mr Llwyd: On the question of granting a warrant on the basis of flimsy evidence, is the right hon. Lady the debate. For example, if anyone from Gaddafi’s aware that, according to the Director of Public Prosecutions, regime—his sons or other senior political and military there have been only 10 applications in the past 10 years, cohorts—tries to visit the UK at some point in future, of which only two were granted? they will be affected by this change in the law. The Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and other Ann Clwyd: That was to have been my very next Ministers have been strong in their condemnation of point. It is amazing that in the past 10 years, there have Gaddafi, in their calls for him to face justice, and in been just two successful applications for arrest warrants, their support for the International Criminal Court and that they were then either withdrawn or not acted on. investigation. I agree with them. The best place for Gaddafi to end up is in front of a court on an ICC Michael Ellis: Does not that 80% failure rate indicate indictment for crimes against humanity. However, the that people have been making frivolous and vexatious existence of the ICC does not absolve us of responsibility applications? Also, is it not right that proper evidence to ensure that those most serious of crimes can be should be tendered to a court or other authority before prosecuted within our jurisdiction. the issue of an arrest warrant that could have international ramifications? Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Does my Friend agree that the current situation is the best one, Ann Clwyd: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman is not aware because it keeps the Government away from allegations of the facts. The fact that there have been 10 applications of political bias in cases in which arrests are sought for and that only two were granted means that the judges a court in this country? Clause 152 will bring every who currently implement this legislation are absolutely prosecution into the political orbit, where it certainly spot on. They do not take frivolous applications—quite should not be. the contrary: they are only too careful. They are experienced judges, not ordinary magistrates. The current system Ann Clwyd: My hon. Friend hits the nail on the head works comparatively well, and no one can point to any as usual, and I shall develop that argument in a few frivolous applications. minutes. We still have obligations under the Geneva conventions Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): My —they are obligations, and not discretions or permissions right hon. Friend might be aware that a document —to bring before a court persons suspected of committing issued by the Liberal Democrats in June last year stated: the gravest crimes against humanity when we are able to “The issue of the arrest warrant for a war crime is decided only do so. This change in the law will undermine our by specialist legally qualified magistrates such as the most senior commitment to those Geneva convention obligations. district judge at Westminster Magistrates’ Court. They are well qualified to decide whether the high threshold of evidence, liability Why, then, are the Government seeking to change the and jurisdiction has been met and that no immunity applies…The law? The Justice Secretary, yesterday, and the Foreign removal of the right of public prosecution in such cases would Secretary, last Thursday, set out clearly in replies to have the effect of turning our country into a safe transit point for questions in the Chamber the reasons why the Government war criminals, torturers and those guilty of genocide from all over are seeking to do so. The first reason that they gave was the world.” that it is too easy to obtain an arrest warrant. They suggested that anyone could turn up on a frivolous Ann Clwyd: My right hon. Friend makes a very good pretext, spin a yarn to the court and walk away with an point. Indeed, all the human rights organisations, including arrest warrant—put a penny in the slot and out comes a Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Redress warrant! I cannot believe that that argument has carried and Justice are opposed to this change in the law. any weight with anyone at all. In Committee, the Minister conceded: “The problem is not that large numbers of warrants are being Dr Huppert: I share the right hon. Lady’s deep interest issued—the Government are aware of only two”.––[Official Report, in human rights and I absolutely accept her point. May Police Reform and Social Responsibility Public Bill Committee, I, however, go back to what she was saying earlier about 17 February 2011; c. 682.] the arrest process? Does not she accept that a prosecution It is incredible that the Government think that that is is more important than an arrest, and that whether or too many, and that there should be rather fewer. The not the clause is passed, the Attorney-General’s consent fact that two arrest warrants have been granted in will still be required for a prosecution, making the issue 10 years should be a matter of concern, not because it is a political one? Are we not having the wrong debate? too many but because it is too few. Should not we be debating the Attorney-General’s role in private prosecutions? Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): I agree with my right hon. Friend that war crimes and Ann Clwyd: That is certainly a subject for future crimes against humanity are horrific, but does she really debate. I agree with the hon. Gentleman when he said in think it just that an arrest warrant was issued against Committee: Tzipi Livni who was here seriously to negotiate peace “I am not persuaded that there is a need for change…I do not between Israelis and Palestinians and to save lives? think that a sufficiently strong case has been made about why the current system is not working.”––[Official Report, Police Reform Ann Clwyd: Well, the other reason the Government and Social Responsibility Public Bill Committee, 17 February gave for the change in the law is, I suppose, the real 2011; c. 684.] reason, in respect of which my hon. Friend has hit the I hope that he still holds that view. nail on the head: it is the Tzipi Livni case. The Government, 455 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 456 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill as the Foreign Secretary and the Justice Secretary explained, I conclude here because this is the core of my case. are changing the law because of an Israeli politician. The clause is important because it communicates our Changing the law at the request of a foreign Government attitude towards crimes against humanity and towards does not, I would argue, enhance our ability to act as an international justice. international peace broker. It does exactly the opposite by undermining our credibility to speak as a country Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab): that takes human rights seriously. Will my right hon. Friend allow me to intervene? Ann Clwyd: I am concluding; I am sorry. Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): Is it not It is already too hard to try to bring war criminals to incongruous that at the same time as we continue to justice. Sadly, there are already too few prosecutions. speak here about human rights, justice and democracy Let us not make it even harder. in the middle east, we also have to move this particular amendment? Michael Ellis: It might be useful to inject some legal realism into the debate. At present the law in England and Wales provides for no real evidential threshold, and Ann Clwyd: Indeed. I think it sends the wrong signal contains no requirement for a prosecutor to check the at this particular time. I hope I can persuade many more credibility of a claim before an arrest warrant is issued. hon. Members of the force of my argument. In other words, all that is required is for an individual to In today’s The Guardian online, there is an article, go into a police station or the equivalent and make an stating that coalition criminal justice plans allegation. That allegation amounts to a prima facie “make a mockery of universal jurisdiction”. case: the establishment of a prime facie case is the smallest burden that must be borne. Attention-seeking It continues: lawyers and campaign groups are being given an “Giving suspects from ‘protected countries’ immunity from opportunity to use the arrest warrant process as a war crimes arrests would turn the UK into a safe haven for campaign tool. To describe it as providing immunity suspects”. from prosecution is completely wrong in law, in fact and That was written by an eminent human rights lawyer, in degree, and if newspapers have described it thus they Daniel Machower. He goes on to say: are simply wrong. “A legal case for changing the current judicial process, through the senior district judge, has not been made out and parliament is 6.30 pm entitled to reject the proposed change on that basis alone.” Dr Huppert: I had much experience of disagreeing I have my own views on the Tzipi Livni case. I happen with the hon. Gentleman on this matter when the Bill to regard the crimes documented in the Goldstone was in Committee. I am now trying to understand how report as being pretty damning. The very strength of he squares what he is saying with what is actually current system, however, is that it does not matter what happening. As we have heard, eight of the mere my view is: it is a decision taken by a court without 10 applications that have been made in 10 years were political considerations and on the basis of the evidence rejected by the district judge, so the threshold is clearly alone. That is the system that the Government are going higher than he is suggesting. Moreover, the clause does to undermine. nothing about the process of applying for an arrest warrant. People could still apply for one; there would just be a delay before it could be granted. Mr Offord: The right hon. Lady claims that accusations against an individual are mentioned in the Goldstone Michael Ellis: I have a feeling that any Member of report, but she also talks about people having immunity Parliament who was subject to the arrest warrant would in this country. What evidential basis does she have for not be so cavalier as to consider that one or two presuming to believe that to be true? instances were nothing to worry about. We ought to have a system that applies fairly across the board. According a case study, in March last year the former Ann Clwyd: I do not know what the hon. Gentleman Vice-President of Bosnia, Ejup Ganic, was arrested at is talking about—and I doubt whether he does either. Heathrow airport after Serbian judicial authorities issued The Opposition Front-Bench team has tabled an an extradition warrant. He was accused of conspiracy amendment proposing to create new units in the Crown to murder 40 Yugoslav People’s Army soldiers in an Prosecution Service and the Metropolitan police. As the attack in May 1992. He was subsequently released on Minister observed in Committee, however, these units bail when the judge remarked that the arrest warrant already exist for war crimes investigations. The fact that issued by Serbia had been politically motivated. It was they already exist, and have done for some time, helps reported that Serbia had yet to produce any real evidence, to show us what will happen when the Director of and that most of its supposed evidence consisted of Public Prosecutions becomes a gatekeeper for all universal news articles about the incident. City of Westminster jurisdiction cases: nothing. Yes, nothing will happen. magistrates court blocked Ganic’s extradition in July As we learned from a report in The Guardian last month last year. The presiding judge—who, as was pointed out and the work of the all-party group on the prevention by the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton of genocide, nearly 400 war criminals are believed to be (Sir Gerald Kaufman), had considerable experience—said in the UK right now—from Iraq, Afghanistan, Sri that he had been led to believe that the extradition Lanka, Rwanda, Zimbabwe and the Congo. How many proceedings were prosecutions have there been? One—just one, which is “brought and being used for political purposes, and as such the Zardad case. amount to an abuse of the process of this court” 457 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 458 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill [Michael Ellis] clause might help with prosecutions is that it would be hard for the Attorney-General to overturn a decision by Having worked in the criminal justice system for the Director of Public Prosecutions, because he could 17 years, I am concerned about the way in which the not come up with the claim about the relevant person English legal system is perceived abroad, and the being just a magistrate? In fact the Attorney-General ramifications of some of the incidents that have occurred. might find that he was in a weaker position, and it For generations, the United Kingdom has been at the would be easier to proceed with a prosecution. forefront of peace conferences and other such meetings. The very recent meeting to discuss Libya is a classic Michael Ellis: I am not concerned, as my hon. Friend example. Circumstances in which people were fearful of appears to be, about the Attorney-General, because entering this country because an extremely low threshold safeguards are built into our system in this country. The might result in their arrest would be injurious not only Attorney-General has been in a position similar to that to the reputation of the United Kingdom’s legal system, envisaged in the Bill for decades, and there is no evidence but to the UK’s overall reputation for being a place whatever that that has been a problem in other areas. where peace can be sought and arrangements can be There are prosecutions in this country that can take made across the negotiating table. It is not in the place only with the consent of the Attorney-General, interests of world order and international peace for and there are other prosecutions that can take place obstructions to be placed in the way of people wishing only with the consent of the DPP—I myself have been to enter this country in the way that they have been involved in one or two of them—but no one is suggesting doing. That does not, of course, apply to only one that those cases involve political interference. The reality country; there are several other examples. is that we have to have safeguards against the misuse of a process that has increasingly been employed in highly Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Does the hon. Gentleman controversial circumstances and has deeply injurious not accept that the example he gave has nothing to do effects on international relations and British relations. with private prosecutions being pursued in relation to As I have already enunciated, my primary concern is to universal jurisdiction, as it was an extradition matter? maintain the good standing of the English legal system. Does he not also accept that the court had a very serious threshold and made a very serious judgment, so Jeremy Corbyn: The hon. Gentleman is deeply confusing the process clearly could not be abused for political me; I hope he did not confuse the courts in the same purposes? way when he was practising. We are trying to ensure that people against whom there is prima facie evidence Michael Ellis: It is important to remember that there of war crimes or crimes against humanity could be is the issue of fear of arrest, as well as arrest itself. If subject to an arrest warrant in this country. The opposite someone were to say to anyone in this House, “There’s a of that is that they would be welcome in this country. I prospect of your being arrested should you enter the am sure that is not the hon. Gentleman’s intention, but United States, or France,” they would think very carefully it is beginning to sound a bit like it. before entering those countries, even if they knew there were no grounds for any allegations and they were Michael Ellis: Of course it is not my intention that entirely innocent. They would not put themselves through war criminals be welcomed to this country. They would the hassle. be welcome to be prosecuted in this country, and I would support that. The reality is very different, however, Mark Durkan: Can the hon. Gentleman therefore tell and we must ensure that only appropriate people in us how this clause removes that fear? What signal will appropriate circumstances are subject to the heavy penalty people have that the Director of Public Prosecutions of arrest. would not entertain any such warrant? Mike Wood (Batley and Spen) (Lab): The hon. Michael Ellis: There seems to be a fear, including in Gentleman said that this provision had been increasingly apparently authoritative newspapers, that the provision used—10 times in the past 10 years—but what evidence will grant immunity from prosecution, but all it does is has he got to suggest that that is the case? raise the test to the same level as for prosecutions that occur by the thousands per week in this country.Whenever Michael Ellis: As I have said, there are several offences there is an allegation against an individual—whether that, although they are rarely used, their presence on for murder, shoplifting or anything in between—the the statute book is in itself damaging. Many would Crown Prosecution Service has to consider two tests: argue that although the 42-days provision was hardly whether it is in the public interest to proceed, and ever used, its presence on the statute book would not be whether there is a realistic prospect of conviction. No uncontroversial. During the 13 years of the Labour one suggests that the need to consider whether there is a Government some 3,000 new criminal offences were realistic prospect of conviction in those contexts in created, dozens of which have never been prosecuted effect means immunity from prosecution for everybody, yet remain on the statute book. The principle is that one and that is all that will be applying here. ought to be interested in justice for every individual, rather than having no justice for a handful and thinking Dr Huppert: This brings us on to what I consider to that because only a handful are being subjected to be an important point. Shortly after an arrest, the injustice we should not worry about it. Attorney-General has to engage with deciding whether to continue with the private prosecution; that is one of Mike Wood: Is the hon. Gentleman agreeing that this the weaknesses of the private prosecution system. Does provision has not been increasingly used? If so, does he the hon. Gentleman think that one way in which this wish to retract what he has just said? Either it has been 459 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 460 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill increasingly used or it has not. He said that it has been Mr Love: Is my hon. Friend not concerned about used 10 times in 10 years, but what was the incidence in this? We have been told that the DPP will consult the the previous 10 years? If he cannot produce that evidence, Attorney-General, who can, of course, consult his Cabinet or if the evidence suggests that this provision has not colleagues, but all that will take place behind closed been increasingly used, perhaps he should withdraw doors. Is there not a real case to answer about the what he has just said. politicisation of the process?

Michael Ellis: That is a matter of personal opinion. 6.45 pm As I have indicated, one would have to make a comparison with the previous 10 years. The universal jurisdiction Vernon Coaker: That would have been a real danger law is a common-law matter and has, therefore, presumably with the initial proposal concerning the Attorney- been available for decades. If it has been used only General—my hon. Friend is right to highlight that 10 times in the past 10 years, one would have to go back concern—but when the DPP gave evidence to the Public to see what happened during the previous 10 years. Bill Committee he was very clear about the thresholds Perhaps one would discover that during that period it that he would use and the way in which he would had never been used once. If that is the case, it has been conduct his business. My hon. Friend is right to raise increasingly used; I would just posit that. [Interruption.] this issue, but the moving of responsibility for this area from the Attorney-General to the DPP is a significant I am conscious of the fact that other hon. Members step forward. would like to speak, so may I conclude by saying that Canada is not considered to be a country that is in any Mr Love: The core of this matter is that the DPP will way permissive towards war crimes, yet it has adopted a consult the Attorney-General about the public interest tack similar to the proposed British solution? Although test, and that will be the subject of debate, not the boasting a very broad piece of legislation implementing standard of evidence that is available. I return to the universal jurisdiction, Canada’s law requires that all same question. As that process will take place behind claims based on universal jurisdiction first be personally closed doors, is my hon. Friend not concerned about approved by its Attorney-General or deputy Attorney- the politicisation of the process? General before they can be introduced in any court. So I would posit that to Labour Members, and say that if Vernon Coaker: The point that I am making is that Canada has done this and is doing it— the DPP’s involvement is to prevent that politicisation, and I was reassured by what he said when he gave Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab) rose— evidence to the Committee.

Michael Ellis: I am going to finish now. If Canada Jeremy Corbyn: I am disappointed in the Minister’s has done this and is doing it, I see no reason why line of argument, because on the question of arraigning England and Wales should not do it as well. someone for crimes against humanity or war crimes, he appears to be saying that there has to be a foreign policy consideration. Surely the decision whether to grant an Vernon Coaker: I start by saying that we support the arrest warrant should be made solely on an evidential Government on the clause. It is strangely placed in this basis within international law. It should not be about Bill, as it deals with a foreign policy and justice issue, the perceptions or otherwise of this country, or any but our foreign policy team has made its support clear. other, about foreign policy. The provision is essential to maintain universal jurisdiction: it allows for the prosecution of war crimes and crimes Vernon Coaker: I know that my hon. Friend feels against humanity anywhere in the world. We also support strongly about this, but we are supporting the amendment continuing with private prosecutions. because this is not only about arrest but about securing We do not believe that there should be any weakening prosecution and increasing the likelihood that people in the standards for and likelihood of prosecution, as can be prosecuted. That is why we support what the that would be completely wrong. However, there is a Government propose, now that the DPP is involved. difference between the standards and procedures for arrest and the standards and procedures for prosecution. Mr Offord: I am sure that the shadow Minister will For prosecution, a higher standard of proof and the recall the DPP’s evidence to the Committee. He said: agreement of the Attorney-General are needed, whereas “We have people who can work around the clock and…enough for arrest they are not. That means that there could be trained people so that someone is always available.”—[Official cases where people are arrested but there is no likelihood Report, Police Reform and Social Responsibility Public Bill Committee, of prosecution, because the evidence is not there and 20 January 2011; c. 126, Q241.] the Attorney-General will not give agreement, perhaps That would prevent anyone from fleeing justice in this because of campaigning on international issues in this country. country. We do not believe that that is appropriate, especially if it deters people from coming to Britain for Vernon Coaker: That is one reason why I said that if purposes associated with diplomacy or peace. So it is the DPP is to take decisions he will need to do so swiftly. essential to make the change that the Government As I have said, justice must not be denied by being propose, which would bring arrest better into line with delayed. We believe that the Crown Prosecution Service prosecution but would not affect the chances of a and the Metropolitan police should play a strong role, prosecution. However, if the Director of Public Prosecutions as they have in the past, and must not be hit by the cuts. is to take these decisions, he will need to do so swiftly. That is why we tabled amendment 154—to ensure that Justice must not be denied by being delayed. there is no delay and that wherever possible things are 461 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 462 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill [Vernon Coaker] The DPP made it clear that he would talk to the Attorney-General, but he said five or six times that dealt with as speedily as possible so that the arrest there would have to be a very powerful weight in favour warrant is granted where appropriate, and we can secure of prosecuting, because the crime is one of universal a prosecution. jurisdiction. The public interest would have to be overwhelming. I take comfort from that, because I am Dr Huppert: I shall try to be brief because a number concerned that at present the Attorney-General can of hon. Members wish to speak. I have written an stop any process going ahead. We do not have a functioning article today for “Liberal Democrat Voice” if anyone private prosecution system in this country, because the wants my comments in full—I am sure that hon. Members Attorney-General can stop any such prosecutions at read it frequently. [Interruption.] There is only one any stage. Including the DPP in the provision would version—unlike what happens with the Labour party, make it harder for the Attorney-General to do that, whose members seem to give different messages from because straight after the DPP—a recognised independent the back, the front and the side. person—said, “Yes, there is a case. This person can be I want to talk about how the system would work, and prosecuted,” the Attorney-General would be faced with I urge hon. Members to look at the transcript of the the prospect of saying, “Actually the DPP is wrong. He DPP’s evidence to the Public Bill Committee, which was doesn’t understand this,” and trying to end it. very detailed and very reassuring for those of us who The provision makes prosecutions easier, and it is want to make sure that prosecutions go ahead. He made prosecutions that I am concerned about. I should like to it clear that a team was available, as has just been hear more about how the Government will make sure mentioned, and that it would be ready to act. He that the police take stronger action. I should like to hear understood the issue of timeliness and advanced the whether they agree with recommendations from the idea of using a lower threshold test when there is not Joint Committee on Human Rights, on which I serve, enough time to gather evidence. Importantly, he also that would weaken the role of Attorney-General in offered to look in advance at evidence about people terminating private prosecutions. My remaining concern who we know should be prosecuted, so as to be ready to is about the fact that the DPP may decide not to go go at very short notice—to update what would be ahead because the evidence is too weak. If that is required and to be able to go ahead. I was very encouraged genuinely the case, I do not think that any of us would by that. have a problem with it. However, what worries me are cases in which the DPP does not get round to making a Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and decision because there is a pocket veto. I should like an Lesmahagow) (Lab): I am the chair of the all-party assurance from the Minister that the Government will group for the prevention of genocide and crimes against report on such cases. If there are a large number of humanity. My right hon. Friend the Member for Cynon them in which a pocket veto is exercised and no proper Valley (Ann Clwyd) has made the point that there are decision is made, I hope that the Government will look more than 400 war criminals in Britain, but is the hon. at the matter again and make sure that there is due Member for Cambridge aware that only 29 of them are process. being pursued by SO15? Does that not demonstrate that we have to separate the wheat from the chaff? Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): There are Clause 152 will do that: it will get right to the heart of two minutes remaining, as I will call the Minister at the matter and ensure that we have the evidence base to 6.54 pm. ensure that war criminals are prosecuted. Sir Gerald Kaufman: We heard one Liberal Democrat Dr Huppert: The role of the police is important. voice. May I, in the remaining two minutes, quote the Private prosecutions are the wrong way to go about Liberal Democrat document which I have already quoted dealing with such people. If a private prosecution has to with regard to Tzipi Livni, who has been mentioned? It be used the state has failed to go ahead—but I would says: like to see it do so. Private prosecutions are an essential “Tzipi Livni, as Israeli Foreign Minister, was one of those safeguard where the state has failed. responsible for authorising these attacks”— Yasmin Qureshi rose— on Gaza, which deliberately targeted civilians and civilian infrastructure— Dr Huppert: I shall give way once more, but then I “and made public statements that appeared to encourage the want to conclude and allow other hon. Members to Israeli military to use disproportionate force and engage in deliberate destruction with no legitimate military objective.” speak.

Yasmin Qureshi: Does the hon. Gentleman not accept Dr Huppert rose— that the provision has been introduced because of the arrest of one individual? We are changing centuries of Sir Gerald Kaufman: I will not give way, because I our law and tradition for the sake of one person. have only two minutes. That is the person whom this lot are trying to acquit Dr Huppert: My position was well summarised by an of the right even to be prosecuted, and even the issuing Opposition Member who spoke earlier. It is a shame of a warrant against her. Her parents were terrorists that there has been a conflation of two separate issues—one who murdered great numbers of people. She was an about Israel-Palestine and the whole sordid tale there, Israeli spy in Paris when the Israelis were murdering and the other a legal debate about what the system people all over Europe and were changing the law to ought to be. I wish it were possible to have that discussion. suit this war criminal. 463 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 464 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill Nick Herbert: The purpose of clause 152 is to require It has also been argued, and we have heard this the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions evening, that there is a risk of political interference, before an arrest warrant for war crimes under the given the likelihood that the DPP would consult the Geneva Conventions Act 1957, and for the few other Attorney-General. offences over which the United Kingdom has asserted universal jurisdiction, can be issued on the application Yasmin Qureshi rose— of a private prosecutor. Much of the criticism directed at this provision seems to assume that it will end the right of private prosecution Nick Herbert: If the hon. Lady will forgive me, I will for universal jurisdiction cases—a point that appeared not give way; time is short. to be made by the right hon. Member for Manchester, I raised such a risk in questioning the DPP, but he Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) in his brief speech—and, made it clear in his evidence that by extension, that it will damage the principle of universal “the decision is the decision of the Director of Public Prosecutions, jurisdiction itself. I emphasise that this is simply not the taken independently.” case. Of course the provision has no effect at all on the ability of the police to investigate, and of the Crown He added that consultation between the DPP and the Prosecution Service to prosecute, alleged offences of Attorney-General, which is regular, universal jurisdiction, but we think it is right that citizens “acts as no inhibition on the independence that I would bring to should be able to prosecute these cases, grave as they the decision. At the end of the day, the decision is mine, it is are. That is why, under our proposal, anyone will still be independent and it is reviewable.”––[Official Report, Police Reform able to apply to a court to initiate a private prosecution and Social Responsibility Public Bill Committee, 20 January 2011; c. 124-130.] of universal jurisdiction offences by issuing an arrest warrant, where appropriate. As my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) pointed out, the DPP also said that there Our approach, therefore, differs from that proposed are powerful public interest reasons to prosecute in a by the previous Government, which removed the right case that has satisfied the evidential threshold. to private prosecution of offences alleged to have been committed by a foreign national on foreign soil. The necessity for the provision has been questioned on two grounds. It is said that the sort of people whom Mr McCann: Does the Minister agree that that will it is designed to safeguard are already covered by immunity. prevent the silliness of people like two arch-atheists Although this is true of some of the visitors against trying to bring charges against Pope Benedict when he whom arrest warrants have been sought in the past, it is was making an official state visit to this country? not true of all. Immunity from criminal jurisdiction applies to certain Ministers, and warrants have been Nick Herbert: I will deal with some of these points as sought against Ministers not covered and those who are Igoon. not Ministers at all. All that the provision will do is prevent a warrant being issued in cases where there is no realistic prospect John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): of a viable prosecution taking place. It would not, as the Will the Minister give way? right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) claimed when she moved her amendment, give immunity Nick Herbert: I am sorry. I do not have time. to war criminals. That is not the case. It is said, too, that few warrants have been issued in It has been argued that the consent requirement will universal jurisdiction cases, but the problem lies in the lead to delay and allow someone who ought to be perception that a person who is not a British citizen, prosecuted to leave the country. That is the force of does not live here, and indeed has no connection with amendment 154. That is a serious point, which the this country apart from being present here, might be at Director of Public Prosecutions addressed when he risk of arrest for a very grave crime where there is no gave evidence to the Public Bill Committee. I urge those prospect of a viable prosecution. That such an occurrence hon. Members who are concerned about the provision is rare misses the point. The fact is that people who are, to read, if they have not done so already, the DPP’s or have been, in leading positions in their countries, evidence to the Public Bill Committee, which I believe with whom the Government would wish to engage in will give them a great deal of reassurance as to how he discussions, may be discouraged from coming here. would approach the matter. That is our concern. That, in turn, creates a risk of The DPP is well aware that speed is important in damaging our ability to help in conflict resolution or dealing with such applications. He explained that the interfere with foreign policy. Crown Prosecution Service has suitably trained staff available around the clock, and they stand ready to act Amendment 154 would require special units to be set immediately in emergency cases. He also had helpful up in the police and the CPS. The responsibility for advice for anyone who wants to pursue a crime of investigating universal jurisdiction cases lies with a specialist universal jurisdiction, which is that they should not unit of the Metropolitan police. That unit has the wait until the suspect has arrived here, but should specialist skills and expertise required to conduct those engage early with the CPS. He said that they cases, or to decide that an investigation in this jurisdiction is not warranted or feasible. The unit is best placed to “should come to us”— evaluate the prospects of being able to protect witnesses that is, the CPS— or secure their evidence at any trial, identify an individual “with whatever evidence they have, and we will undertake to look responsible for the particular conduct to the criminal at it and to advise.” standard, and deal— 465 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 466 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill 7pm Bryant, Chris Ellman, Mrs Louise Debate interrupted (Programme Order, this day). Buck, Ms Karen Ellwood, Mr Tobias Buckland, Mr Robert Elphicke, Charlie The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already Burley, Mr Aidan Engel, Natascha proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), Burnham, rh Andy Eustice, George That the amendment be made. Burns, Conor Evans, Chris Burns, rh Mr Simon Evans, Graham The House proceeded to a Division. Burrowes, Mr David Evans, Jonathan Burt, Alistair Evennett, Mr David Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I ask the Burt, Lorely Fabricant, Michael Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Byles, Dan Fallon, Michael Lobby. Byrne, rh Mr Liam Farrelly, Paul Cable, rh Vince Farron, Tim The House having divided: Ayes 37, Noes 480. Cairns, Alun Featherstone, Lynne Campbell, Mr Alan Field, Mr Mark Division No. 245] [7 pm Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Flello, Robert Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Flint, rh Caroline Carmichael, Neil Foster, rh Mr Don AYES Carswell, Mr Douglas Fovargue, Yvonne Allen, Mr Graham Hopkins, Kelvin Cash, Mr William Francois, rh Mr Mark Bailey, Mr Adrian Jackson, Glenda Chapman, Mrs Jenny Freeman, George Betts, Mr Clive Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Chishti, Rehman Freer, Mike Campbell, Mr Ronnie Lammy, rh Mr David Clappison, Mr James Fullbrook, Lorraine Caton, Martin Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Clark, rh Greg Fuller, Richard Clwyd, rh Ann Love, Mr Andrew Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Gale, Mr Roger Cruddas, Jon Lucas, Caroline Clarke, rh Mr Tom Gapes, Mike Cryer, John McDonnell, John Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Garnier, Mr Edward Danczuk, Simon Mudie, Mr George Coaker, Vernon Garnier, Mark Dobbin, Jim Osborne, Sandra Coffey, Ann Gauke, Mr David Dobson, rh Frank Owen, Albert Coffey, Dr Thérèse Gibb, Mr Nick Dowd, Jim Qureshi, Yasmin Collins, Damian Gilbert, Stephen Durkan, Mark Skinner, Mr Dennis Colvile, Oliver Glass, Pat Edwards, Jonathan Smith, rh Mr Andrew Cooper, Rosie Glen, John Field, rh Mr Frank Smith, Nick Cooper, rh Yvette Godsiff, Mr Roger Flynn, Paul Winnick, Mr David Cox, Mr Geoffrey Goggins, rh Paul Glindon, Mrs Mary Wood, Mike Crabb, Stephen Goldsmith, Zac Hendrick, Mark Tellers for the Ayes: Crausby, Mr David Goodwill, Mr Robert Hoey, Kate Hywel Williams and Creasy, Stella Gove, rh Michael Hood, Mr Jim Jeremy Corbyn Crouch, Tracey Graham, Richard Cunningham, Alex Grant, Mrs Helen Cunningham, Tony Gray, Mr James NOES Curran, Margaret Grayling, rh Chris Abbott, Ms Diane Bellingham, Mr Henry Dakin, Nic Green, Damian Abrahams, Debbie Benn, rh Hilary Davey, Mr Edward Green, Kate Adams, Nigel Berger, Luciana David, Mr Wayne Greening, Justine Afriyie, Adam Berry, Jake Davidson, Mr Ian Greenwood, Lilian Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Binley, Mr Brian Davies, David T. C. Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Aldous, Peter Blackman, Bob (Monmouth) Griffith, Nia Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Blackwood, Nicola Davies, Geraint Griffiths, Andrew Alexander, Heidi Blears, rh Hazel Davis, rh Mr David Gummer, Ben Ali, Rushanara Blenkinsop, Tom de Bois, Nick Gwynne, Andrew Amess, Mr David Blomfield, Paul De Piero, Gloria Gyimah, Mr Sam Anderson, Mr David Blunkett, rh Mr David Dinenage, Caroline Hague, rh Mr William Andrew, Stuart Blunt, Mr Crispin Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hain, rh Mr Peter Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Boles, Nick Docherty, Thomas Halfon, Robert Bacon, Mr Richard Bone, Mr Peter Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Hamilton, Mr David Bailey, Mr Adrian Bottomley, Sir Peter Doran, Mr Frank Hammond, Stephen Bain, Mr William Bradley, Karen Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hancock, Matthew Baker, Norman Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Dorries, Nadine Hancock, Mr Mike Baker, Steve Brady, Mr Graham Doyle, Gemma Hands, Greg Baldry, Tony Brake, Tom Doyle-Price, Jackie Hanson, rh Mr David Baldwin, Harriett Bray, Angie Drax, Richard Harper, Mr Mark Balls, rh Ed Brazier, Mr Julian Dromey, Jack Harrington, Richard Banks, Gordon Brennan, Kevin Duddridge, James Harris, Rebecca Barclay, Stephen Bridgen, Andrew Duncan, rh Mr Alan Harris, Mr Tom Baron, Mr John Brine, Mr Steve Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hart, Simon Barron, rh Mr Kevin Brokenshire, James Dunne, Mr Philip Harvey, Nick Barwell, Gavin Brown, rh Mr Gordon Eagle, Ms Angela Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Bebb, Guto Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Efford, Clive Havard, Mr Dai Beckett, rh Margaret Brown, Mr Russell Elliott, Julie Hayes, Mr John Begg, Dame Anne Bruce, Fiona Ellis, Michael Heath, Mr David Beith, rh Sir Alan Bruce, rh Malcolm Ellison, Jane Heaton-Harris, Chris 467 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 468 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill Hemming, John Mactaggart, Fiona Percy, Andrew Stunell, Andrew Henderson, Gordon Mahmood, Shabana Perkins, Toby Sturdy, Julian Hendrick, Mark Main, Mrs Anne Perry, Claire Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Hepburn, Mr Stephen Mann, John Phillips, Stephen Swales, Ian Herbert, rh Nick Marsden, Mr Gordon Phillipson, Bridget Swayne, Mr Desmond Heyes, David May, rh Mrs Theresa Pickles, rh Mr Eric Swinson, Jo Hillier, Meg Maynard, Paul Poulter, Dr Daniel Syms, Mr Robert Hilling, Julie McCabe, Steve Pound, Stephen Tami, Mark Hinds, Damian McCann, Mr Michael Prisk, Mr Mark Tapsell, Sir Peter Hoban, Mr Mark McCarthy, Kerry Pritchard, Mark Teather, Sarah Hodgson, Mrs Sharon McCartney, Jason Pugh, John Thomas, Mr Gareth Hollingbery, George McCartney, Karl Raab, Mr Dominic Thornberry, Emily Hollobone, Mr Philip McClymont, Gregg Randall, rh Mr John Thurso, John Holloway, Mr Adam McFadden, rh Mr Pat Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Timms, rh Stephen Hopkins, Kris McGovern, Alison Reckless, Mark Timpson, Mr Edward Howell, John McGovern, Jim Redwood, rh Mr John Tomlinson, Justin Hughes, rh Simon McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Reed, Mr Jamie Tredinnick, David Huppert, Dr Julian McIntosh, Miss Anne Rees-Mogg, Jacob Trickett, Jon Hurd, Mr Nick McKechin, Ann Reevell, Simon Truss, Elizabeth Irranca-Davies, Huw McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Reeves, Rachel Turner, Mr Andrew Jackson, Mr Stewart McPartland, Stephen Reid, Mr Alan Turner, Karl James, Margot McVey, Esther Reynolds, Emma Twigg, Derek Jarvis, Dan Meale, Mr Alan Reynolds, Jonathan Tyrie, Mr Andrew Javid, Sajid Mearns, Ian Robertson, John Umunna, Mr Chuka Jenkin, Mr Bernard Menzies, Mark Robertson, Mr Laurence Uppal, Paul Johnson, Diana Mercer, Patrick Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Vaizey, Mr Edward Johnson, Gareth Metcalfe, Stephen Rogerson, Dan Vaz, Valerie Johnson, Joseph Miliband, rh David Rosindell, Andrew Vickers, Martin Jones, Andrew Miliband, rh Edward Rotheram, Steve Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Jones, Mr David Miller, Andrew Roy, Mr Frank Walker, Mr Charles Jones, Graham Miller, Maria Roy, Lindsay Walker, Mr Robin Jones, Helen Mills, Nigel Ruane, Chris Wallace, Mr Ben Jones, Mr Kevan Milton, Anne Rudd, Amber Walley, Joan Jones, Mr Marcus Mitchell, Austin Ruddock, rh Joan Walter, Mr Robert Jones, Susan Elan Moon, Mrs Madeleine Russell, Bob Ward, Mr David Joyce, Eric Moore, rh Michael Rutley, David Watkinson, Angela Keeley, Barbara Mordaunt, Penny Sanders, Mr Adrian Watson, Mr Tom Kelly, Chris Morden, Jessica Sandys, Laura Watts, Mr Dave Kendall, Liz Morgan, Nicky Scott, Mr Lee Weatherley, Mike Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Seabeck, Alison Wharton, James Khan, rh Sadiq Morris, Anne Marie Selous, Andrew Wheeler, Heather Kirby, Simon Morris, David Shannon, Jim White, Chris Knight, rh Mr Greg Morris, Grahame M. Shapps, rh Grant Whittaker, Craig Kwarteng, Kwasi (Easington) Sharma, Alok Whittingdale, Mr John Laing, Mrs Eleanor Morris, James Sharma, Mr Virendra Wicks, rh Malcolm Lamb, Norman Mosley, Stephen Sheerman, Mr Barry Wiggin, Bill Lancaster, Mark Mowat, David Shelbrooke, Alec Williams, Mr Mark Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Munn, Meg Sheridan, Jim Williams, Roger Latham, Pauline Munt, Tessa Shuker, Gavin Williams, Stephen Lavery, Ian Murphy, rh Mr Jim Simmonds, Mark Williamson, Chris Laws, rh Mr David Murray, Ian Simpson, Mr Keith Williamson, Gavin Lazarowicz, Mark Murrison, Dr Andrew Skidmore, Chris Willott, Jenny Lee, Jessica Nash, Pamela Smith, Angela Wilson, Phil Lee, Dr Phillip Neill, Robert Smith, Miss Chloe Wilson, Mr Rob Leech, Mr John Newmark, Mr Brooks Smith, Henry Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Lefroy, Jeremy Newton, Sarah Smith, Julian Wollaston, Dr Sarah Leigh, Mr Edward Nokes, Caroline Smith, Nick Woodcock, John Leslie, Charlotte Norman, Jesse Smith, Owen Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Leslie, Chris Nuttall, Mr David Smith, Sir Robert Wright, David Lewis, Brandon O’Brien, Mr Stephen Spellar, rh Mr John Wright, Mr Iain Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Offord, Mr Matthew Spencer, Mr Mark Wright, Jeremy Lidington, rh Mr David Ollerenshaw, Eric Stephenson, Andrew Wright, Simon Lilley, rh Mr Peter Onwurah, Chi Stevenson, John Yeo, Mr Tim Stewart, Bob Lloyd, Stephen Opperman, Guy Young, rh Sir George Stewart, Iain Lloyd, Tony Ottaway, Richard Zahawi, Nadhim Lopresti, Jack Parish, Neil Stewart, Rory Lord, Jonathan Patel, Priti Stride, Mel Tellers for the Noes: Stringer, Graham Loughton, Tim Paterson, rh Mr Owen Mr Shailesh Vara and Stuart, Ms Gisela Mark Hunter Lucas, Ian Pawsey, Mark Luff, Peter Pearce, Teresa Lumley, Karen Penning, Mike Question accordingly negatived. Macleod, Mary Penrose, John 469 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 470 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill The Deputy Speaker then put forthwith the Question Kendall, Liz Robertson, John necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded Khan, rh Sadiq Robinson, Mr Geoffrey at that time (Standing Order No. 83E). Lammy, rh Mr David Rotheram, Steve Lavery, Ian Roy, Mr Frank Lazarowicz, Mark Roy, Lindsay Clause 152 Leslie, Chris Ruane, Chris Lloyd, Tony Ruddock, rh Joan RESTRICTION ON ISSUE OF ARREST WARRANTS IN Love, Mr Andrew Seabeck, Alison PRIVATE PROSECUTIONS Lucas, Ian Shannon, Jim Amendment proposed: 154, page 100, line 17, at end Mactaggart, Fiona Sharma, Mr Virendra insert— Mahmood, Shabana Sheerman, Mr Barry ‘(a) A specialist unit shall be established within the Crown Mann, John Sheridan, Jim Prosecution Service, reporting to the Director of Marsden, Mr Gordon Shuker, Gavin Public Prosecutions, so as to ensure minimal delay in McCabe, Steve Skinner, Mr Dennis decisions relating to arrest warrants issued under this McCann, Mr Michael Smith, rh Mr Andrew section. McCarthy, Kerry Smith, Angela (b) A specialist unit shall be established within the McClymont, Gregg Smith, Owen Metropolitan Police so as to ensure minimal delay in McFadden, rh Mr Pat Spellar, rh Mr John the issuing of arrest warrants under this section.’.— McGovern, Alison Stringer, Graham (Vernon Coaker.) McGovern, Jim Stuart, Ms Gisela Question put, That the amendment be made. McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Meacher, rh Mr Michael Tami, Mark The House divided: Ayes 179, Noes 297. Meale, Mr Alan Thomas, Mr Gareth Division No. 246] [7.16 pm Mearns, Ian Thornberry, Emily Miliband, rh David Timms, rh Stephen AYES Miliband, rh Edward Trickett, Jon Abbott, Ms Diane Dobbin, Jim Miller, Andrew Turner, Karl Abrahams, Debbie Docherty, Thomas Moon, Mrs Madeleine Twigg, Derek Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Doran, Mr Frank Morden, Jessica Umunna, Mr Chuka Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Dowd, Jim Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Vaz, rh Keith Alexander, Heidi Doyle, Gemma Morris, Grahame M. Vaz, Valerie Ali, Rushanara Eagle, Ms Angela (Easington) Walley, Joan Allen, Mr Graham Efford, Clive Munn, Meg Watson, Mr Tom Anderson, Mr David Elliott, Julie Murphy, rh Mr Jim Watts, Mr Dave Bailey, Mr Adrian Ellman, Mrs Louise Murray, Ian Williamson, Chris Bain, Mr William Engel, Natascha Nash, Pamela Wilson, Phil Balls, rh Ed Evans, Chris Onwurah, Chi Winnick, Mr David Banks, Gordon Farrelly, Paul Osborne, Sandra Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Barron, rh Mr Kevin Flello, Robert Pearce, Teresa Woodcock, John Begg, Dame Anne Flint, rh Caroline Perkins, Toby Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Phillipson, Bridget Benn, rh Hilary Flynn, Paul Wright, David Berger, Luciana Fovargue, Yvonne Pound, Stephen Wright, Mr Iain Betts, Mr Clive Gapes, Mike Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Blenkinsop, Tom Gilmore, Sheila Reeves, Rachel Tellers for the Ayes: Blomfield, Paul Glass, Pat Reynolds, Emma Lilian Greenwood and Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Godsiff, Mr Roger Reynolds, Jonathan Graham Jones Brennan, Kevin Goggins, rh Paul Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Green, Kate NOES Brown, Mr Russell Griffith, Nia Bryant, Chris Gwynne, Andrew Adams, Nigel Bone, Mr Peter Burnham, rh Andy Hain, rh Mr Peter Afriyie, Adam Bradley, Karen Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hamilton, Mr David Aldous, Peter Brady, Mr Graham Campbell, Mr Alan Hanson, rh Mr David Amess, Mr David Brake, Tom Campbell, Mr Ronnie Harris, Mr Tom Andrew, Stuart Bray, Angie Caton, Martin Havard, Mr Dai Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Brazier, Mr Julian Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hendrick, Mark Bacon, Mr Richard Brine, Mr Steve Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hepburn, Mr Stephen Baker, Norman Brokenshire, James Coaker, Vernon Heyes, David Baker, Steve Brooke, Annette Cooper, Rosie Hillier, Meg Baldry, Tony Bruce, Fiona Cooper, rh Yvette Hilling, Julie Baldwin, Harriett Bruce, rh Malcolm Crausby, Mr David Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Barclay, Stephen Buckland, Mr Robert Creasy, Stella Hopkins, Kelvin Baron, Mr John Burley, Mr Aidan Cryer, John Irranca-Davies, Huw Barwell, Gavin Burns, Conor Cunningham, Alex Jackson, Glenda Bebb, Guto Burns, rh Mr Simon Cunningham, Tony Jarvis, Dan Beith, rh Sir Alan Burrowes, Mr David Curran, Margaret Johnson, Diana Bellingham, Mr Henry Burt, Alistair Dakin, Nic Jones, Helen Berry, Jake Burt, Lorely Danczuk, Simon Jones, Mr Kevan Binley, Mr Brian Byles, Dan David, Mr Wayne Jones, Susan Elan Blackman, Bob Cable, rh Vince Davidson, Mr Ian Joyce, Eric Blackwood, Nicola Cairns, Alun Davies, Geraint Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Blunt, Mr Crispin Campbell, rh Sir Menzies De Piero, Gloria Keeley, Barbara Boles, Nick Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair 471 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 Police Reform and Social 472 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill Carmichael, Neil Hands, Greg Mills, Nigel Skidmore, Chris Carswell, Mr Douglas Harper, Mr Mark Milton, Anne Smith, Miss Chloe Cash, Mr William Harrington, Richard Moore, rh Michael Smith, Henry Chishti, Rehman Harris, Rebecca Mordaunt, Penny Smith, Julian Clappison, Mr James Hart, Simon Morgan, Nicky Smith, Sir Robert Clark, rh Greg Harvey, Nick Morris, Anne Marie Spencer, Mr Mark Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morris, David Stephenson, Andrew Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hayes, Mr John Morris, James Stevenson, John Coffey, Dr Thérèse Heath, Mr David Mosley, Stephen Stewart, Bob Collins, Damian Heaton-Harris, Chris Mowat, David Stewart, Iain Colvile, Oliver Hemming, John Munt, Tessa Stewart, Rory Cox, Mr Geoffrey Henderson, Gordon Murrison, Dr Andrew Stride, Mel Crabb, Stephen Herbert, rh Nick Neill, Robert Stunell, Andrew Crouch, Tracey Hinds, Damian Newmark, Mr Brooks Sturdy, Julian Davey, Mr Edward Hoban, Mr Mark Newton, Sarah Swales, Ian Davies, David T. C. Hollingbery, George Nokes, Caroline Swayne, Mr Desmond (Monmouth) Hollobone, Mr Philip Norman, Jesse Swinson, Jo Davis, rh Mr David Holloway, Mr Adam Nuttall, Mr David Syms, Mr Robert de Bois, Nick Hopkins, Kris O’Brien, Mr Stephen Tapsell, Sir Peter Dinenage, Caroline Howell, John Offord, Mr Matthew Teather, Sarah Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hughes, rh Simon Ollerenshaw, Eric Thurso, John Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Hunter, Mark Opperman, Guy Timpson, Mr Edward Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Huppert, Dr Julian Ottaway, Richard Tomlinson, Justin Dorries, Nadine Hurd, Mr Nick Parish, Neil Truss, Elizabeth Doyle-Price, Jackie Jackson, Mr Stewart Patel, Priti Turner, Mr Andrew Drax, Richard James, Margot Paterson, rh Mr Owen Tyrie, Mr Andrew Duddridge, James Javid, Sajid Pawsey, Mark Uppal, Paul Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jenkin, Mr Bernard Penning, Mike Vaizey, Mr Edward Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Johnson, Gareth Penrose, John Vickers, Martin Dunne, Mr Philip Johnson, Joseph Percy, Andrew Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Ellis, Michael Jones, Andrew Perry, Claire Walker, Mr Charles Ellison, Jane Jones, Mr David Phillips, Stephen Walker, Mr Robin Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Mr Marcus Pincher, Christopher Wallace, Mr Ben Elphicke, Charlie Kelly, Chris Poulter, Dr Daniel Walter, Mr Robert Eustice, George Kirby, Simon Prisk, Mr Mark Watkinson, Angela Evans, Graham Knight, rh Mr Greg Pritchard, Mark Weatherley, Mike Evans, Jonathan Kwarteng, Kwasi Pugh, John Wharton, James Evennett, Mr David Laing, Mrs Eleanor Randall, rh Mr John Wheeler, Heather Fabricant, Michael Lamb, Norman Reckless, Mark White, Chris Fallon, Michael Lancaster, Mark Rees-Mogg, Jacob Whittaker, Craig Farron, Tim Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Reevell, Simon Whittingdale, Mr John Featherstone, Lynne Latham, Pauline Reid, Mr Alan Wiggin, Bill Field, Mr Mark Laws, rh Mr David Robertson, Mr Laurence Williams, Mr Mark Foster, rh Mr Don Lee, Jessica Rogerson, Dan Williams, Roger Francois, rh Mr Mark Lee, Dr Phillip Rudd, Amber Williams, Stephen Freeman, George Leech, Mr John Russell, Bob Williamson, Gavin Freer, Mike Lefroy, Jeremy Rutley, David Willott, Jenny Fullbrook, Lorraine Leigh, Mr Edward Sanders, Mr Adrian Wilson, Mr Rob Fuller, Richard Leslie, Charlotte Sandys, Laura Wollaston, Dr Sarah Gale, Mr Roger Lewis, Brandon Scott, Mr Lee Wright, Simon Garnier, Mr Edward Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Selous, Andrew Young, rh Sir George Garnier, Mark Lidington, rh Mr David Shapps, rh Grant Zahawi, Nadhim Gauke, Mr David Lilley, rh Mr Peter Sharma, Alok Gibb, Mr Nick Lloyd, Stephen Shelbrooke, Alec Tellers for the Noes: Gilbert, Stephen Lopresti, Jack Simmonds, Mark Mr Shailesh Vara and Glen, John Lord, Jonathan Simpson, Mr Keith Jeremy Wright Goldsmith, Zac Loughton, Tim Goodwill, Mr Robert Luff, Peter Question accordingly negatived. Gove, rh Michael Lumley, Karen Graham, Richard Macleod, Mary Bill to be further considered tomorrow. Grant, Mrs Helen May, rh Mrs Theresa Gray, Mr James Maynard, Paul Grayling, rh Chris McCartney, Jason Green, Damian McCartney, Karl BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE Greening, Justine McIntosh, Miss Anne Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Order No. 15), Griffiths, Andrew McPartland, Stephen Gummer, Ben McVey, Esther That, at this day’s sitting, proceedings on the Motion in the Gyimah, Mr Sam Menzies, Mark name of Sir George Youngrelating to Private Members’ Bills may Hammond, Stephen Mercer, Patrick be proceeded with, though opposed, until any hour.—(Miss Chloe Hancock, Matthew Metcalfe, Stephen Smith.) Hancock, Mr Mike Miller, Maria Question agreed to. 473 Police Reform and Social 30 MARCH 2011 474 Responsibility Bill Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): On a point of Private Members’ Bills order, Mr Deputy Speaker. During the last debate, I heard a Member make a comment about another Member Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I inform in this Chamber. The language that they used certainly that House that Mr Speaker has selected the amendment. was not parliamentary. Will you take some action, or advise me on how I might make a complaint against the 7.28 pm right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) for the comments he made when the hon. The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) stood the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): I beg to to make an intervention? move, That, notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order No. 14(4), Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): If it had Private Members’ Bills shall have precedence over Government business on 9 September 2011, 21 October 2011, 25 November been within earshot of me, obviously I would have dealt 2011 and 20 January 2012. with it straight away, but I did not hear anything. Briefly, the purpose of the motion is to provide extra days for private Members’ business, in line with the Government’s intention to continue this Session until spring 2012. The House will be aware that the Procedure Committee is conducting an inquiry into sitting hours. This is not a debate on the wider issue of process and timings for private Members’ business, which I know the Committee will want to consider. The previous Government brought forward no extra days in the first Sessions of previous Parliaments. Indeed, in the final Session of the previous Parliament, the then Leader of the House brought forward a resolution that reduced the number of days for private Members’ business. This House must balance the needs of Members to proceed with private Members’ business with other priorities. The Leader of the House has received Back- Bench representations calling for fewer sitting Fridays, to allow Members to spend more time in their constituencies and to reduce the costs of this place. If the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill is agreed and we move to annual spring- to-spring Sessions, we will no longer be faced with the issue of increasing or reducing the number of days. I cannot recall any previous Government bringing forward a motion to increase the number of sitting days. In the interests of Back Benchers, particularly those who have been successful in the ballot and wish to see their Bills taken forward, I am very happy to do so today. That is a proportionate response, and I hope the House will support the motion.

7.29 pm Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): We welcome the motion that the Leader of the House has tabled. This is a greatly extended Session of Parliament, certainly longer than any that I can remember, and it is therefore right that more time should be allowed for Back-Bench business. As the Deputy Leader of the House said, there are other things to consider about how the House deals with private Members’ Bills and how Members can get a fair hearing for them, but they should and will be dealt with at another time. Members who table private Members’ Bills deserve the chance for those Bills to receive proper debate and, if they get the necessary support, for them to pass into law. As with all matters before the House, however, we need to ensure that there is a little common sense and, if I may gently say so, a little consideration. Some Members have tabled an amendment to extend the amount of time available for private Members’ Bills, but at the moment a small group of Members are introducing a great many such Bills, which is unhelpful to the House as a whole and to other Members who wish to have their own Bills debated. 475 Private Members’ Bills30 MARCH 2011 Private Members’ Bills 476

Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): Helen Jones: Can the hon. Gentleman quote back to Has my hon. Friend noticed, as I have, that the same me anything I said that suggests I want the Executive to group of Members are the ones who seem to speak the have control of private Members’ Bills? most on a Friday? Perhaps if they spoke slightly less, we might have more time to make progress on Fridays. Mr Bone: I cannot—I do not have that sort of memory—but I got the impression that the hon. Lady Helen Jones: My hon. Friend tempts me into a matter was saying, “No more extra days,” whereas the previous that is one for Mr Speaker and his deputies. I am sure Government did not support Standing Orders and reduced that if hon. Members were filibustering, Mr Speaker the number of private Members’ days in a Session, and would not allow them to do so. I shall talk about that briefly later on. That is a key When I last counted, I think the hon. Member for issue. I was hoping she would stand up and say, “Actually, Christchurch (Mr Chope) had about 20 Bills on the go, the previous Labour Government got it wrong on that and the hon. Members for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) particular point.” and for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) had 13 each. I cannot While I am dealing with the hon. Lady’s remarks, I vouch for the accuracy of those figures, because my wanted to talk about the process and the number of eyes started to glaze over as I went through the list. Members who have tabled private Members’ Bill. She Frankly, I started to lose the will to live after a while. gave the impression that only three Members had tabled The problem comes down to the fact that Members Bills. who are successful in the ballot for private Members’ Bills and wish to introduce legislation should have a fair Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): What does chance to have their Bills debated and voted on. It is up my hon. Friend think would have been the attitude of to them to gather enough support from all parties to get our late, great friend, Eric Forth to all this? He killed their Bills through, but I say to the hon. Members who more private Members’ Bills than most of us have had have tabled the amendment that that cannot happen if hot breakfasts. Would he have welcomed more days for others table so many Bills that they block up the system private Member’s Bills so that more people could indulge entirely. It is neither fair nor proportionate. their fantasies of adding to the nanny state? Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): But that cannot happen in the second part of this extended Session, Mr Bone: Eric Forth was perhaps one of the best because there is not going to be a further ballot to allow parliamentarians ever, and I rather think he enjoyed private Members to take part in the process. Does the Fridays, so he probably would have liked more. hon. Lady agree with the coalition Government that I saw a wonderful quote from the Leader of the there should not be a further ballot? House, who is not in the Chamber, about how wonderful it was to be selected in the ballot. The main obstacle to Helen Jones: We will wait to see what the Government getting his Bill on the Order Paper was Eric Forth. Eric bring forward, but if the hon. Gentleman thinks that will probably be looking down now and saying, “Yeah. his Bills do not have a chance of getting through, one Actually, we would like more power for Parliament”—he wonders why he tabled them in the first place. certainly believed in that—“and therefore more power I hope that we can agree to the motion, so that for Fridays.” Members who wish to pursue their private Members’ Bills have a proper opportunity to do so and get a fair Helen Jones: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman needs to hearing from the House. search his memory, because what I remember most about Eric Forth, for whom I had a great deal of Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I call Peter admiration, is that he spent most of his time on Fridays Bone to move the amendment. killing off private Members’ Bills rather than allowing them to get through—[Interruption.] As the Deputy 7.33 pm Leader of the House says, he would certainly have Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I am very enjoyed that. grateful to Mr Speaker for having selected my amendment, but having heard what the Deputy Leader of the House Mr Bone: The hon. Lady has misunderstood my said in his powerful speech, with your permission, comments. Eric Forth killed off hopeless Labour private Mr Deputy Speaker, I will not move the amendment. I Members’ Bills, which he did with great relish. My hon. should instead like to speak to the main motion. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) has now taken on that role, and does it extremely well Mr Deputy Speaker: We thank the hon. Gentleman indeed—no doubt we will see some more Bills killed. for the clarification. The amendment is not moved. As legislators, MPs have the opportunity only on a Friday—on a private Members’ Bill day—to put forward Mr Bone: Ooh, my pager has just pinged. their Bills. I should like to counter the view of the hon. I do not know whether to cheer or boo—I have heard Member for Warrington North. She said that only three some booing tonight. I was slightly disappointed that Members put down private Members’ Bills on the days the hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) that we are discussing. In fact, on 9 September, my hon. wished to carry on the old Executive’s way of controlling Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North private Members’ days and having as few as possible. (Caroline Nokes) will promote the Consumer Protection The enlightened view of the Deputy Leader of the (Postal Marketing) Bill and my hon. Friend the Member House has encouraged me to support the motion, and I for Christchurch (Mr Chope) will promote his Reporting am looking forward to the reform of private Members’ of Injuries, Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences business. Regulation Bill. On 14 October, my hon. Friend the 477 Private Members’ Bills30 MARCH 2011 Private Members’ Bills 478

[Mr Bone] us a proper terrorism law. Does he also appreciate that it is possible to attach signatures to such Bills by tabling Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless) will an early-day motion? On one occasion, there were as promote the Police Terms and Conditions of Service many as 350 signatures attached in that way. That (Redundancy) Bill. provides ample evidence of the support that a Bill has, even though the Government, by their continuous Mr Heath: The hon. Gentleman will admit to slight diminishing of the opportunities for the House to vote support for the case of the hon. Member for Warrington on matters that are important to the people at large— North (Helen Jones). Of the 112 private Members’ Bills before the House, 51—nearly half—are in the names of Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. the hon. Members who are signatories to the amendment. In fact, their legislative programme is about twice the Mr Bone: My hon. Friend makes an important point. size of the Government’s. Just to cheer him up, I can tell him that if Friday 18 November had been one of the days selected by the Mr Bone: There are two things wrong with that. Government, there would have been a Referendums Bill First, when Front Benchers agree on something, it is introduced by hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch, almost certain not to be the correct way forward. Secondly, which he might have been interested in. the alternative Queen’s speech proposed by certain Members Sometimes, private Members’ Bills serve the purpose had a reason behind it beyond thinking that all those of getting the issue discussed, as my hon. Friend the Bills would be debated. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) has just demonstrated. There are three ways in which private Members’ Bills They also serve the purpose of getting the matter into get debated. Most people think that that happens only law. There are a great deal of difficulties involved in through the ballot, but there are also ten-minute rule getting a private Member’s Bill through the House, and Bills—they must be debated in the Chamber, when they that is why we should not reduce the number of days get an opportunity for Second Reading as a private available on which to debate them. I shall give the Member’s Bill—and, of course, presentation Bills. I House an example of someone who knew how to do all shall not speak to my amendment, which was not this. Anthony Steen, the former Member for Totnes, got moved because of all the wonderful things that the his Anti-Slavery Day Bill through in the dying days of Deputy Leader of the House said. That is a shame, the last Government when no one was watching what he because I could have quoted what he said in his previous was up to. That was a very important Bill, and we now guise as an Opposition spokesman. I will not do that, celebrate anti-slavery day on 18 October. He has changed but he was certainly much more in favour of additional the national law, and well done to him, but that was days then than he is now that he is in the Government. only possible because he used the procedures. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr Mr Hollobone: In his intervention, the Deputy Leader Hollobone) will agree that this is all about knowing the of the House seemed to imply that the large number of procedures, and that that is what we, as parliamentarians, private Members’ Bills was a bad thing, but actually, it should be doing. is a very good thing. Parliamentarians are coming forward I must tell the House why I have a problem with the with proposals for legislation to improve our country Deputy Leader of the House. He knows of my admiration and the way of life of our people. Having only four days for him. We have, in the Leader of the House and the in the extended programme in which to cram in all Deputy Leader of the House, two superb parliamentarians, those Bills is a totally inadequate allocation of parliamentary supported by an equally superb Parliamentary Private time. Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Henley Mr Bone: My hon. Friend puts that argument much (John Howell). Selfishly, I hope that they will remain in better than I could have done. their posts on 6 May, or whenever the next reshuffle is going to be. We are lucky to have them, and that is why I I want to go back to the list of Bills, to give the House am slightly disappointed. I cannot remember what the a flavour of the matter and to show that it is not just Deputy Leader of the House did before he came to the three or four Members who are involved. My hon. House. I had the unfortunate problem of being a chartered Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), who has accountant, and I am therefore used to adding sums up not been mentioned so far, has a non-controversial and getting wrong numbers. I think that the hon. Gentleman Equality and Diversity (Reform) Bill before the House might have been a chartered accountant, too, because on 21 October. The hon. Member for Nottingham East he has added the sums up and got a wrong number. (Chris Leslie) has his Master’s Degrees (Minimum Standing Order No. 14(4) clearly states: Standards) Bill, and my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) has his Waste “Private Members’ bills shall have precedence over government business on thirteen Fridays in each session to be appointed by Recycling (End Use Register) Bill. I could go on and on, the House.” but my point is that these Bills are important to the Members concerned, and they might well be important There is no question about that. to their constituents and to the country. They should be Now this is where I was a little disappointed by the heard, and we should not try to restrict debate on them. hon. Member for Warrington North, who I guess is shadow Deputy Leader of the House. In the last Session Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): I hope that my hon. of the last Government, there were only five private Friend will be good enough to note that if a Member Members’days. [Interruption.] The hon. Lady mutters—she introduces and prints a presentation Bill, that will could have acted properly and intervened—that that is demonstrate to the country what they intend to do. My because it was a short Session. She well knows, however, Prevention of Terrorism Bill, for example, would unwind that that is not allowed for in the Standing Orders. We the application of the Human Rights Act 1998 and give must have 13 days. 479 Private Members’ Bills30 MARCH 2011 Private Members’ Bills 480

If I were to be generous to the last Labour Government, On a serious note, I just think that this was a great as I always am, I would say that they quite properly opportunity to fix broken promises. I re-read the Prime argued that the eight days lost because it was a short Minister’s excellent speech of 26 May 2009 when he Session should be added on to the longer Session that said he wanted to return powers to Parliament and to would run from the election in May—not to the November Back Benchers. He wanted MPs to be independent. I of that year, but to that of the year after. I am happy to have taken him to heart and tried to be independent and accept this argument, which gives us eight more days for tried to be a parliamentarian, but the lack of days will a start. restrict my ability to do that. The Government have given us the 13 days that we I encountered another difficulty today when I received would normally have in a Session—there is no argument a text message from a constituent saying “If you do not about that; they are absolutely correct—but there are, get this amendment through, it will mean that you will of course, the eight that have been missed. That takes us be at home more often.” I want to know what the up to 21 already. Because the Government are moving Deputy Leader of the House will say to Mrs Bone towards a five-year, fixed-term Parliament, which I about that, because it seems to me that parliamentarians agree with, and there will be one-year parliamentary should be here scrutinising the Government. The provision Sessions, they have added from November 2011 to May of a private Members’ day once a month—which is 2012—I reckon that is six months—and assumed that what this amounts to—is surely not a problem, and I to be half a year. What we need, the Government have feel that we have missed an opportunity. said, is half of 13, which seems to come to four. I know that there are pressures on those in government, Now I reckon half of 13—as an accountant, I have to I know that the Executive want to control everything, round up—comes to seven. What we should have, then, and I understand that that is the old way. I also know are the 13 days the Government have given us, the eight that the Prime Minister wants to get away from that, that the previous Government took away, plus the seven and wants a new politics that will make the House of for the additional term. If I add seven and 13, I get 20 Commons more important. I did not move my amendment and if I add eight, I get 28. This is my problem; I think for precisely the reason given by the Deputy Leader of we should have 28 days. the House: we are moving towards the establishment of a Business of the House Committee, and once we have such a Committee, none of these problems will arise. Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): My hon. Everything will be sweetness and light, because Parliament Friend is, as ever, making a very powerful speech. Does rather than the Executive will allocate the days. he agree that, on that basis, the amendment—I fully understand the reasons why it was not moved—is a I was so encouraged by the fact that reform of the compromise? It might almost be described as the third private Members’ Bills procedure was being considered way. seriously that it would have been absurd for me to argue for the provision of 13 extra Fridays. In a few months’ time the Leader of the House will stand at the Dispatch Mr Bone: As always, I was trying to be helpful and Box, announce that private Members’ Bills will be debated considerate towards the Government. In fact, on the on Wednesday evenings, and say “We have thought day before yesterday, I had a fine meeting in private about this, and we are going to grant such-and-such a with the Leader of the House. After our conversation, number of extra days.” I see this as a holding debate in he was very clear. I had impressed him so much that he anticipation of those reforms. I am encouraged by what said, “Peter, I have not given you a wink, nod or any has happened today, and I will therefore support the indication that the Government have moved from their motion in the hope of seeing the reforms introduced a current position”, which is, of course, exactly what little later. happened. They did not move and they slapped this motion down for tonight. 7.51 pm Let us get back to the number of days: the 13 plus the seven that we should get under the Government’s own Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I am disappointed very generous thought, as they are extending the Session. by what the Government have done tonight. My starting If we add the eight, we get 28 days. I would have point is to ask why they are doing this at all. Why is this accepted 28 days, but I thought, “Let us look at it something that we had to let the Government propose? another way, as accountants always do it twice”. If we It seems to me that it is a matter for the House—that the are moving towards one-year parliamentary Sessions—from House should decide how many days it will devote to May to May— we are going to have 13 private Members’ private Members’ Bills. I should have thought that a Fridays in each year. That is very clear, and that will sensible discussion between the Leader of the House’s kick in in May 2012. From May 2010 when this Parliament office and the Backbench Business Committee would started—on 18 May, I think—to May 2011 would provide have come up with a far more sensible procedure. us with 13 days. From May 2011 to May 2012 would The way in which time is allocated for private Members’ provide another 13, making 26. As a chartered accountant, Bills has serious implications for the Backbench Business I have done the sums and come up with two different Committee. Despite the best efforts of the Deputy answers. We should have either 26 days or 28 days. Leader of the House, who is doing a very good job in Unfortunately, when the Deputy Leader of the House the absence of the Leader of the House—I am disappointed came up with his calculations, he came up with 17 days, that the Leader of the House is not present, given that which is the 13 days that we had to be given, plus the he told us that this was such an important issue that it extra four. That is why I wonder whether he is another had to be debated tonight—we have not heard how he chartered accountant. He has clearly come up with a calculated the four extra days. We heard a superb analysis completely different result than most people expected. from my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough 481 Private Members’ Bills30 MARCH 2011 Private Members’ Bills 482

[Mr Philip Hollobone] that it can make further progress in this place. I will be making a special effort to be here on Friday to hear my (Mr Bone) of how the Government might have arrived hon. Friend discourse on his Bill, and I know other at that figure, but that is only the best estimate of my hon. Friends will also make a special effort. I do not hon. Friend. It is not actually the process employed by share the view that being here in the Chamber on a the Government, and it is the Government who allocate Friday is not an appropriate use of a Member of time to the Backbench Business Committee. Parliament’s time. I do not know where the idea that I should like to know whether the same process of every Friday has to be a constituency day came from. I calculation, which is so obscure and opaque that none think it is probably a new Labour invention. They tried of us knows what it is, will be applied to the allocation to persuade Members of Parliament not to turn up to of Back-Bench business time. The Backbench Business this place so we did not scrutinise the Government and Committee, and, I would hope, all Back Benchers, will instead let the Executive get away with quite a lot. be extremely concerned if, in an extended parliamentary Mr Cash: A number of incredibly important private Session that is the equivalent of two normal parliamentary Members’Bills have got through in the teeth of Government years, Back-Bench time is not also equivalent to two full opposition, such as those on the abolition of capital parliamentary years. I should welcome an intervention punishment, the beginnings of the whole of the suffragette from the Deputy Leader of the House if he wishes to movement—that can be read about in the Library—the reassure me that my fears are unfounded, but I fear that removal of obstacles preventing women’s enfranchisement, we could be running into trouble. and at present, of course, the United Kingdom The other thing that we have not heard from the Parliamentary Sovereignty Bill. The important point is Deputy Leader of the House is why he has chosen these that these Bills were proceeded with in the teeth of particular Fridays. What is special about 9 September, Government opposition. That shows why we need to 21 October, 25 November and 20 January 2012? Why have this time. have they been chosen rather than any of the other Fridays? I would have hoped the Deputy Leader could Mr Hollobone: My hon. Friend is a far greater expert give us an explanation for that. in parliamentary affairs than I will ever be, and I would The hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) willingly give all 13 days in a parliamentary Session to criticised those of us who have tabled quite a large him so he can bring forward sensible legislation to number of private Member’s Bills, and she was generous improve the life of our nation. The point he makes is enough to mention in passing myself and my hon. incredibly powerful. Friend the Member for Wellingborough. She might find I am a bear of little brain—I am not, I am afraid, an reassurance in the fact that none of the Bills my hon. accountant or a lawyer—but I believe that there are Friend or I have tabled have reached the top of the list 52 Fridays every year, while 13 Fridays are normally for discussion in this parliamentary Session. Despite listed for private Members’ legislation. Members therefore our best efforts, we have not had the opportunity of have plenty of Fridays to devote to tending to the needs parliamentary time to test our ideas in the Chamber. I of their constituents. The idea that we have to sacrifice a do not believe we should be criticised for trying, however; large proportion of those 13 Fridays to enable more we are doing our best on behalf of our constituents to constituency days is misguided. The real reason for this put forward ideas to improve our nation, and that is is that the Executive do not want Members bringing entirely laudable. forward ideas that the Government do not control, and which, according to them, might possibly get out of Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con): I have a control. That is a big mistake. lot of time for the hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones), but I, too, was a little disappointed in her Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Surely for those statement that Members who thought they had no people introducing Bills and legislative change the serious chance of making progress with their Bill should proceedings on Fridays are an extension of representing just withdraw it. their constituents here and making the changes they want.

Helen Jones: I did not say that. Mr Hollobone: Those wise words from across the Irish sea are extremely welcome, and it would be great if Mr Bacon: The hon. Lady did say words to that more Members of this House thought that way. I know effect, as the record will show. I have paraphrased, but that the hon. Gentleman is an assiduous attender, who that is essentially the meaning of what she said: that stands up and speaks up in this place on behalf of his Members who thought they had no serious chance of constituents. He is not frightened of scrutinising legislation, making progress with Bills should withdraw them. I and private Members’Bills are all part of that parliamentary have been trying for seven years to get food labelling process. Each of us, no matter what party we represent, legislation on to the statute book. The fact that I have is the only person from our constituency entitled to sit now had to introduce a Bill four times, and that at each in this Chamber and speak up on behalf of our constituents. stage people have said I have very little chance of If we can do that to good effect on those 13 Fridays, succeeding, has never stopped me trying. more power to our elbow. Mention has been made of the late, great Eric Forth, Mr Hollobone: I commend my hon. Friend for his who was an outstanding parliamentarian. One of Eric’s efforts with his private Member’s Bill, and I am delighted great attributes was that although he did try to scrutinise that this coming Friday it is listed fourth on the Order private Members’ Bills in great detail, he would not have Paper. I hope that by some magical intervention it been in favour of reducing the number of parliamentary might rise further up the Order Paper and we therefore Fridays. He would have said that it is everyone’s right to get a chance to debate it, scrutinise it and vote on it so try to introduce legislation, but that legislation must be 483 Private Members’ Bills30 MARCH 2011 Private Members’ Bills 484 scrutinised effectively in this place. We heard a comment 8.5 pm earlier about the difficulties of Bills making progress, but the point of this place is not to make progress with Mr Heath: With the leave of the House, I should like Bills: it is to scrutinise them and to allow their passage to respond. I am grateful to hon. Members who have once they are in a fit and proper shape. I very much contributed to the debate and particularly to the hon. hope that my hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) for the way in (Mr Bacon) will demonstrate that to good effect this which he approached it. I know from having argued this Friday, given the years of work he has put into honing case with him, often in similar terms, that it is something his legislation in fine detail, and ensuring that every he cares passionately about and feels should happen. nook and cranny has been explored and every possible I have indicated that a number of things will affect difficulty ironed out. If Parliament did not exist, we how the House deals with this matter in future, such as would not be able to scrutinise legislation in that way, the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill, which will bring more which is why these private Members’ Fridays are so certainty and uniformity to parliamentary Sessions. important. Also, as the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) said, there is the prospect of the Backbench Business Mr Nuttall: Does my hon. Friend agree that one way Committee being evaluated and the Government are in which good ideas in private Members’ Bills reach the committed to bringing forward proposals for a business statute book, even if they are not successful in reaching of the House Committee, which will take on the difficult it on a Friday through the normal procedure, is by being role of making sure that the interests of all Members adopted by the Government and, on occasion, by being are properly taken into account, as far as possible, given fitted into Government Bills? that some of them compete. That seems proper. We also have the Procedure Committee doing something Mr Hollobone: My hon. Friend speaks wise words, that the Wright Committee suggested but did not have and I can give him an exact example of what he describes the opportunity to see through. The Wright Committee from this very week. I have sponsored the non-controversial recognised that there was a problem with how we deal Face Coverings (Regulation) Bill. It is one of my Bills with private Member’s Bills, but it could not come up that has not reached the Floor of the House, but on with a solution in the tight time scale within which it Monday the Home Secretary stood at the Dispatch Box was operating. It therefore suggested that this Parliament and said that the Government were looking into the should look into the matter, which is why my right hon. difficulty of controlling all the yobs in these riots who Friend the Leader of the House asked the Procedure cover their faces. My Bill would make it an offence for Committee to look at the process for private Member’s someone to cover their face for the purpose of obscuring Bills. We look forward eagerly to its report. their identity. I was pleased to be able to draw that to Various things are in motion and we have attempted the Home Secretary’s attention this week, and I very to respond to the legitimate request for more time. Let much hope that she will look at my Bill and see how it me emphasise that this is the first time that a Government might be best adapted to meet the Government’s needs. have provided more time for private Members’ Bills in a The quickest way to facilitate any advantage to this long Session to enable those who have been successful country in that becoming law would be to introduce the in the ballot and whose Bills are receiving consideration Bill in Government time in this place. in Committee to make progress if that is the will of the However, in response to my hon. Friend, may I say House—it is the House that decides whether that should that I have a feeling that one reason why the Government be the case. are nervous about granting too many private Members’ Fridays is because they have recently had a bad experience Mr Hollobone: Is the Deputy Leader of the House in this place with the Daylight Saving Bill? Lots of hon. going to enlighten us as to the calculation by which he Members were determined to see that Bill make progress arrived at four extra days? and they gave up their Friday to attend in numbers to ensure that its Second Reading passed, despite Government Mr Heath: It is a matter of balance. It is about opposition. Governments do not like getting their fingers looking at the time available and the competing pressures burned, which may be one reason why they have, in on Members. We came up with a proposal that the effect, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough House could consider this evening and that proposal is said, reduced the number of days to which this House is certainly a lot better than anything that has been suggested entitled. before. I think the hon. Member for Wellingborough I am sorry, but the House of Commons does not exist accused me of being an accountant, but I really am not. for the convenience of Her Majesty’s Government. The House of Commons exists to hold Her Majesty’s Mr Bone: You might be a lawyer. Government to account, because without Parliament the Executive would be able to run amok. On these Benches sit centuries of tradition and scrutiny of the Mr Heath: Neither amIalawyer—thatisevenworse. Executive, and the private Members’ Bill process is part I was formerly an optician, which is perhaps why I want of that process of trying to improve the life of our to focus on the interests of all Members of the House in nation. I am disappointed that the Government are finding what suits them best. being so mean as to allow only four extra private Let me deal with an issue that the hon. Member for Members’ days, because at the very least the number Kettering raised, which is not directly related to private should be 13. I very much hope that when the House Members’ Bills but is within the same context—the time business Committee is up and running, we will have a allocated to the Backbench Business Committee. He proper sensible allocation of days for private Members’ said there was some arcane or obscure formula, but Bills. there is not: the formula was determined by the Wright 485 30 MARCH 2011 Business without Debate 486

[Mr Heath] ANNUAL GROWTH SURVEY That this House takes note of European Union Document Committee. The Government were committed to No. 18066/10 and Addenda 1, 2 and 3, relating to the Annual introducing the reforms proposed by the Wright Committee Growth Survey: advancing the EU’s comprehensive response to and that is exactly what we did. We have been clear the crisis; supports the Government’s objective of promoting throughout that we will continue to allocate time to the strong, sustainable and balanced economic growth in the EU, Backbench Business Committee to enable it to do its with particular regard to EU-level actions aimed at strengthening the single market and trade, enhancing innovation and ensuring work and to provide time for Back-Bench Members of smarter EU regulation; welcomes the Commission’s new Annual the House. We have done so throughout this Session on Growth Survey and its focus on the urgent need for the EU and its the basis of about one day a week. We will continue to Member States to promote economic growth and employment; do exactly what we have done, and most people believe and urges the EU to ensure that policies align with the need for that the allocation is fair and has been used sensibly. EU growth and jobs and the need to reduce deficits.—(Stephen Crabb.) Mr Nuttall rose— Question agreed to.

Mr Heath: This is the last time that I shall give way, DELEGATED LEGISLATION (COMMITTEES) because I was about to conclude. Ordered, That the Measure passed by the General Synod of the Church Mr Nuttall: Is there any particular reason why no of England, entitled Care of Cathedrals Measure (HC 868), be Fridays have been allocated in February or March 2012? referred to a Delegated Legislation Committee.—(Stephen Crabb.) Ordered, Mr Heath: We must remember the interests of Members That the Measure passed by the General Synod of the Church who have been successful in the ballot and want their of England, entitled Ecclesiastical Fees (Amendment) Measure legislation to proceed. If they are to succeed in putting (HC 870), be referred to a Delegated Legislation Committee.— something on the statute book, they need time at the (Stephen Crabb.) end of the process. This is a bicameral Parliament. The Ordered, Commons must do its work, but another place must That the Measure passed by the General Synod of the Church scrutinise and revise legislation. It does not make sense of England, entitled Mission and Pastoral Measure (HC 869), be to have days for private Members’ Bills abutting the end referred to a Delegated Legislation Committee.—(Stephen Crabb.) of the Session, effectively preventing worthy pieces of legislation that have completed scrutiny in the Commons SECTION 5 OF THE EUROPEAN from making further progress. There is a rationale COMMUNITIES (AMENDMENT) ACT 1993 behind the proposals, but that is a matter for the House. Motion made, I hope that the House will take a view on the matter. I That, for the purposes of its approval under section 5 of the am satisfied that we are making another significant European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993, the Government’s reform to the way in which the House works, again assessment, as set out in the Budget Report and the Office for taking time away from the Executive and giving it to Budget Responsibility’s Economic and Fiscal Outlook, shall be Back-Bench Members, which is right, proper and treated as if it were an instrument subject to the provisions of proportionate. I commend the motion to the House. Standing Order No. 118 (Standing Committees on Delegated Legislation).—(Stephen Crabb.) Question put and agreed to. Hon. Members: Object. Business without Debate PETITION DELEGATED LEGISLATION Development (Luton) Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)), 8.12 pm Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): I wish to present IMMIGRATION this petition on behalf of Mr Pat Conway, No-to-North That the draft Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants, group co-ordinator, of 407 Turnpike drive in my Luton etc.) Act 2004 (Remedial) Order 2010, which was laid before this House on 20 December, be approved.—(Stephen Crabb.) North constituency, and 947 other signatories. The petitioners oppose development to the north of Luton, Question agreed to. and have set out the reasons for their objections, believing Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing that there are better alternatives for growth that should Order No. 118(6)), be considered instead. The petitioners therefore request that CUSTOMS the House of Commons urges the Government to encourage That the Export Control (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2011 Luton Borough Council to consider alternative sites for development (S.I., 2011, No. 580), dated 2 March 2011, a copy of which was in and around Luton. laid before this House on 2 March, be approved.—(Stephen Following is the full text of the petition: Crabb.) [The Petition of residents of Luton, Question agreed to. Declares that the Petitioners strongly object to the Strategic Specific Site Allocation to the North of Luton, EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS to the employment sites at Sundon and beside the A6 and Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing to the proposed Luton Northern Bypass; notes that the Order No. 119(11)), Petitioners believe that the location for development is 487 Business without Debate 30 MARCH 2011 488 wrong because of the distance to Luton Town Centre, the Community Facilities (Flitch Green) limitation to increase capacity on the existing roads like Motion made, and Question proposed, the A6 and B579, the impact on schools and other local That this House —(Stephen Crabb.) facilities, its poor location in relation to public transport, do now adjourn. the direct impact on Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty, the negative social and economic impacts on the nearby 8.13 pm residents and the costs to the taxpayer; and further notes Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con): My first that the Petitioners believe that there are better alternatives preference was to entitle this debate “The Battle of for growth instead. Flitch Green”, but I was advised against doing so lest a The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Defence Minister be sent to the Dispatch Box. Nevertheless, Commons urges the Government to encourage Luton a long drawn-out battle has taken place over this community. Borough Council to consider alternative sites for development Once upon a time, there was a sugar beet factory on in and around Luton. the site of what is now the parish of Flitch Green. That, And the Petitioners remain, etc.] after it ceased operation, remained a monument on the landscape for quite some time, but in the wake of the [P000911] Stansted airport inquiry in the 1980s, when sites were being considered for what was termed airport-related housing, the site there became one of those eventually selected and was then given the title Oakwood Park. There were 485 houses in the original allocation, although that had been increased to 655 by 2001, and not many bricks had been placed on bricks before a further 160 were added, bringing the total to 815 houses. The original application was granted on appeal in 1998. The provision of social and community facilities was regulated by a section 106 obligation imposed by the planning directorate. There were specified a multipurpose community hall, a village car park, sports pitches, a local equipped area for play and a neighbourhood area for play. These were meant to be provided by the time the 501st house was completed. None was. Not part of the obligation, but glowingly described in published literature, no doubt designed to arouse interest in the village, were locations for shops, a surgery and a pub, as well as a landscaped area. The brochures stated: “Shops including a small supermarket will be provided to serve the local convenience needs of the new residents”, and “A pub/restaurant with dedicated parking is proposed for a site overlooking the village green”. The brochures went on to say: “The village green will be of traditional form surrounded by avenuesoflargetrees...andwill be of a size to accommodate a cricket pitch and junior soccer pitch and could incorporate a small pavilion.” Picture the scene; it might even have come from one of my books! However, there is no need to imagine, because there were colour illustrations in the brochures showing an idyllic village in a rural setting—but before my hon. Friend the Minister is tempted by my words to ring a local estate agent and ask about vacancies, he should beware. If he were to go there, he would not find any of the facilities that I have just described. The good news—the only good news—was that the development company, Enodis, has built a community hall and laid out a young children’s playground. The bad news, however, is that the hall was only very recently adopted because, in the words of the planning authority, Uttlesford district council, “its appalling construction required a great deal of remedial work to make it acceptable.” That is the limit of what has been done at Flitch Green. Not even the roads are of adoptable standard. The technique employed by the development company to delay the provision of facilities which, if not legally bound, it was honour-bound to provide, was to put in a 489 Community Facilities (Flitch Green)30 MARCH 2011 Community Facilities (Flitch Green) 490

[Sir Alan Haselhurst] What worries me is that, were the Government prepared to go along with the argument being put forward by fresh planning application for additional houses. In Enodis, Uttlesford district council would be denied the those circumstances, it seems that the court would not ability to make its own plans for housing provision for grant the planning authority an enforcement because it the future. That would certainly flout the opinion of the would theoretically be possible that some change might two parish councils. In those circumstances, one would be made in the layout of the plans for the village. be tempted to ask, “What price localism then?” I say to the Minister, after this appalling history of manipulation, The application would be refused by the district that Enodis’s disgraceful and contemptuous attitude council, it would go to appeal, it would be turned down shows that this is a battle it should not be allowed on appeal, it would go to judicial review, it would be to win. turned down again, and then the process could recommence. Another planning application could go in. That is how the time has been spent—going to court, going to 8.24 pm inquiry, and not providing facilities that people were The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for entitled to expect. Enodis could fairly be called a sort of Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill): I corporate artful dodger. congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for I make allowance for the fact that the contractor, Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) on securing this Colonnade, which was to have built the village centre, debate and on the powerful way in which he has put went into liquidation, which has caused a separate forward his constituents’ concerns. I am sure that everyone hold-up. The district council has also given approval for who has listened to the debate will understand why another 98 homes, which brings the total to well over 900. those concerns have been raised. The debate raises important issues about the provision There are currently three planning applications before of community facilities, the planning process, the operation the council. First, there is an application for a village of section 106 agreements and the means by which centre adjacent to the one that has fallen foul of the planning gain—as it is often referred to—is captured collapse of Colonnade. Secondly, there is an application for the benefit of the community. Those are important for a sports field. It is not the original sports field, but a issues of policy that the Government are determined to much better one that has apparently been given approval address, because often it is the failure to give communities by Sport England. Unfortunately, it is not in the parish a tangible benefit from development and growth that of Flitch Green, but in the neighbouring parish of makes them wary of growth and creates opposition. Felsted. Thirdly, an application has been made for a The Government, on the other hand, are keen to encourage further 107 houses. Even if Uttlesford district council sensible and sustainable development in the right place were minded to approve the applications, Enodis, on and with the support of local residents. past form, would probably build only the houses, as it My right hon. Friend naturally and rightly concentrated would be under no obligation to implement the planning on the battle of Flitch Green. Earlier, when we were permissions given for the village centre and the sports field. unsure when we would reach this Adjournment debate, There we have it. Some of my constituents have been I would have been grateful for his having secured the living in Flitch Green for 10 years, but there is still no debate on the battle of Flitch Green, so that one of my sign of the shops, no sign of the pub or restaurant and hon. Friends from the Ministry of Defence would have no sign of the village green. In 2008 a leaflet was had to reply. As it is, however, I am glad to be able to circulated by Enodis stating, “We want your views.” Of respond while it is still today. He has set out in detail the the then 650 households, only 18% responded—I suspect history of the matter and difficulties faced by residents that most were completely feed up with Enodis by that in securing the facilities that they were anticipating as time. To the question, “Do you want the playing field part of a broader development. He pointed out that and large area of play the other side of the Stebbing extant planning applications are under consideration, brook?”, meaning in Felsted, as shown on Enodis’s so he will understand why, owing to the responsibility latest planning application, 121 people said no and 34 of my Department and the Secretary of State in the said yes. Enodis took the number of abstentions to planning process, I cannot comment in detail on the mean approval, and of course the people of Felsted facts of the matter. were not asked. However, when views are expressed by I hope, however, that I can assure my right hon. the elected parish councils of Flitch Green and Felsted Friend that the Government are seized of the policy and the elected district council of Uttlesford, Enodis issues of concern that he raised. It seems that what has simply does not listen. happened falls within permitted conduct under the law Enodis’s latest line is to say that there are deficiencies as it stands. That highlights the fact, however, that there in Uttlesford district council’s five-year housing supply are some deficiencies in the legal framework. Planning chain and that that should be a factor in determining obligation is a well established concept and a valuable the application for the final phase of Flitch Green. That one. Planning obligations are legal agreements between would mean another 107 houses on the site that was developers and local authorities, and deliver what is designated as the sports field in the original master necessary to make a development acceptable in order to plan. The parish of Flitch Green would like the sports obtain planning consent. It is necessary for planning field to be in that original position. It does not approve obligations to meet clear policy and statutory tests to be of the line of Stebbing brook being crossed and the acceptable considerations in the grant of planning playing fields put on the other side. The parish of Felsted permission. certainly does not approve of that, because it fears that Fortunately, the data that our Department have show in-filling would follow between the sports field and the that generally planning obligations deliver many millions present boundary of buildings in the parish. of pounds worth of community facilities, affordable 491 Community Facilities (Flitch Green)30 MARCH 2011 Community Facilities (Flitch Green) 492 housing, open spaces, education facilities and other will know how much it will receive, will receive it and benefits each year. In by far the majority of cases, those can then disburse it to the benefit of the community. obligations are delivered successfully. I am sorry to hear That will have significant benefits, avoiding both the the history of my right hon. Friend’s case, where that need to go through the convoluted procedures for enforcing does not seem to have happened, but generally they are a section 106 agreement and the possibility of applications a useful tool. Of course, there are always exceptions—and being made to vary it, which can take a long time and be they are to be regretted—but I cannot say more about the subject of lengthy disputes—I am not entirely sure that. whether that occurred in this case, but it seems that it It is worth setting out the current policy and legal may have done. position. Where developers have breached their legal The situation in my right hon. Friend’s constituency obligations in this regard, the planning authority has has to be dealt with under the law as it stands, so I powers to take legal action to enforce them, and that is regret that that legislation, which is currently before the done through the courts. The local authority also has House, may be of only limited comfort. However, I the right to carry out the obligation itself and then hope that it is of some comfort for the future that recover any expenses incurred from the developer in lessons can be drawn from how section 106 agreements question. As with any enforcement decision, there are work. I would not want anyone to think that section 106 resource implications, and the local authority has to agreements do not work properly in the majority of weigh up the best course of action in each case. I am cases. However, we believe that a revised CIL will be a sure that Uttlesford council, as a responsible local authority, fairer and better means of dealing with the problem and has done that. will, I hope, give residents greater certainty that if they We are seeking to revisit the approach through which move into a development, the sort of developments for we capture this planning gain. As my right hon. Friend which they hope will, in fact, take place. rightly said, it seems that the situation in his case relates Finally, my right hon. Friend’s point about the views to section 106 agreements, which, although well established, of the parish council and the neighbourhood is also have grown in their extent. It is the Government’s important, and is a further part of the Government’s intention to seek an alternative route to capture the reforms—in the Localism Bill and our allied planning majority of planning gain. reforms—which will involve creating neighbourhood We will give incentives and benefits to communities planning. Once those reforms are in place, parish councils through the new homes bonus, which will enable councils in areas such as Flitch Green will be in a position to to benefit financially from granting permissions. However, develop their own neighbourhood plans, which will be alongside the new homes bonus, we also intend to retain able to specify exactly those sorts of issues, such as and reform the community infrastructure levy, which where playing fields or community facilities might be. we envisage as the principal vehicle through which Subject to the support of the community in a referendum, planning gain will be secured for the benefit of a that plan will be incorporated into the district council’s community in future. That will enable a local authority local development framework and its development plan. to levy a charge in relation to development. We are In the future, therefore, communities such as Flitch determined to ensure—this is in the Localism Bill, Green and Felsted will have the real and genuine ability which is currently before this House—that a meaningful to control where development goes. proportion of the levy will be returned to the benefit of I am afraid that that is a promise of better things for the community in the area of the development concerned. the future, rather than something through which I can Compared with the use of section 106-type planning offer immediate comfort to my right hon. Friend, but I obligations, the community infrastructure levy—or CIL— know that he has done his constituents a great service provides a fairer, and more transparent and predictable by raising this issue in his trenchant and characteristically mechanism for raising contributions towards the sort of eloquent way. I hope that he will at least be able to say facilities that we have been talking about. That will to them that the Government are taking steps for the enable section 106 planning obligations to be scaled future to make sure that planning obligations are delivered back and focus more on the site-specific issues that are in an appropriate, effective and transparent way that is necessary to enable the development to be granted to the general benefit of communities. I am grateful to planning permission, such as providing screening to him for raising those issues with me, and I am sure that protect existing houses, access roads to the site and so the House will appreciate it. on. The CIL will remove much of the uncertainty Question put and agreed to. around section 106 contributions. CIL rates will reflect development viability and—importantly in this context— 8.34 pm there will be a mandatory up-front charge. House adjourned. The developer will pay the CIL, so some of the difficulties with enforcing the obligations that my right hon. Friend mentioned will not arise. Our proposal will be much more straightforward for both the charging CORRECTION authority and the developer, because the responsible Official Report, 29 March 2011: In Division 239, developer will know the cost of their planning obligation—a column 294, in the Noes, delete “Osborne, rh Mr George” cost that can be paid up front—and the local authority and insert “Osborne, Sandra”. 493 30 MARCH 2011 Deferred Division 494

Deferred Division Hart, Simon Morris, Anne Marie Harvey, Nick Morris, David Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morris, James LOCAL GOVERNMENT Heald, Mr Oliver Mosley, Stephen That the draft Code of Recommended Practice on Local Heath, Mr David Mowat, David Authority Publicity, which was laid before this House on 11 February, Heaton-Harris, Chris Mulholland, Greg be approved. Hemming, John Mundell, rh David The House divided: Ayes 297, Noes 187. Henderson, Gordon Munt, Tessa Division No. 241] Herbert, rh Nick Murrison, Dr Andrew Hermon, Lady Neill, Robert Hinds, Damian Newmark, Mr Brooks AYES Hoban, Mr Mark Newton, Sarah Adams, Nigel Crockart, Mike Hollingbery, George Nokes, Caroline Afriyie, Adam Crouch, Tracey Hollobone, Mr Philip Norman, Jesse Aldous, Peter Davey, Mr Edward Hopkins, Kris Nuttall, Mr David Alexander, rh Danny Davies, David T. C. Horwood, Martin O’Brien, Mr Stephen Amess, Mr David (Monmouth) Howarth, Mr Gerald Offord, Mr Matthew Andrew, Stuart Davies, Philip Howell, John Ollerenshaw, Eric Arbuthnot, rh Mr James de Bois, Nick Hughes, rh Simon Ottaway, Richard Bacon, Mr Richard Dinenage, Caroline Hunter, Mark Paice, rh Mr James Bagshawe, Ms Louise Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Huppert, Dr Julian Parish, Neil Baker, Norman Dorries, Nadine Jackson, Mr Stewart Patel, Priti Baker, Steve Doyle-Price, Jackie James, Margot Paterson, rh Mr Owen Baldry, Tony Drax, Richard Javid, Sajid Pawsey, Mark Baldwin, Harriett Duddridge, James Jenkin, Mr Bernard Penning, Mike Barclay, Stephen Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jones, Andrew Penrose, John Barwell, Gavin Dunne, Mr Philip Jones, Mr David Percy, Andrew Bebb, Guto Ellis, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Perry, Claire Beith, rh Sir Alan Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kelly, Chris Phillips, Stephen Bellingham, Mr Henry Elphicke, Charlie Kirby, Simon Pickles, rh Mr Eric Benyon, Richard Eustice, George Knight, rh Mr Greg Pincher, Christopher Beresford, Sir Paul Evans, Graham Kwarteng, Kwasi Poulter, Dr Daniel Berry, Jake Evans, Jonathan Laing, Mrs Eleanor Pritchard, Mark Bingham, Andrew Evennett, Mr David Lamb, Norman Raab, Mr Dominic Blackman, Bob Fabricant, Michael Lancaster, Mark Randall, rh Mr John Blackwood, Nicola Fallon, Michael Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Reckless, Mark Blunt, Mr Crispin Featherstone, Lynne Latham, Pauline Redwood, rh Mr John Bone, Mr Peter Field, Mr Mark Leadsom, Andrea Rees-Mogg, Jacob Bottomley, Sir Peter Foster, rh Mr Don Lee, Jessica Reid, Mr Alan Bradley, Karen Fox,rhDrLiam Lee, Dr Phillip Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Brady, Mr Graham Francois, rh Mr Mark Leech, Mr John Robertson, Mr Laurence Brake, Tom Freeman, George Leslie, Charlotte Rogerson, Dan Bray, Angie Freer, Mike Lewis, Brandon Rosindell, Andrew Bridgen, Andrew Fullbrook, Lorraine Lewis, Dr Julian Rudd, Amber Brine, Mr Steve Fuller, Richard Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Russell, Bob Brokenshire, James Gale, Mr Roger Lidington, rh Mr David Rutley, David Brooke, Annette Garnier, Mr Edward Lloyd, Stephen Sanders, Mr Adrian Bruce, Fiona Garnier, Mark Long, Naomi Sandys, Laura Bruce, rh Malcolm Gauke, Mr David Lopresti, Jack Scott, Mr Lee Buckland, Mr Robert Gibb, Mr Nick Lord, Jonathan Selous, Andrew Burley, Mr Aidan Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Loughton, Tim Shapps, rh Grant Burns, rh Mr Simon Glen, John Luff, Peter Sharma, Alok Burrowes, Mr David Goldsmith, Zac Lumley, Karen Shelbrooke, Alec Burt, Alistair Goodwill, Mr Robert Macleod, Mary Simpson, Mr Keith Burt, Lorely Gove, rh Michael Main, Mrs Anne Skidmore, Chris Byles, Dan Grant, Mrs Helen Maude, rh Mr Francis Smith, Miss Chloe Cable, rh Vince Gray, Mr James May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Henry Cairns, Alun Grayling, rh Chris Maynard, Paul Smith, Julian Cameron, rh Mr David Green, Damian McCartney, Jason Smith, Sir Robert Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Greening, Justine McCartney, Karl Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Griffiths, Andrew McIntosh, Miss Anne Spencer, Mr Mark Carmichael, Neil Gyimah, Mr Sam McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stephenson, Andrew Cash, Mr William Hague, rh Mr William McPartland, Stephen Stevenson, John Chishti, Rehman Halfon, Robert McVey, Esther Stewart, Bob Clappison, Mr James Hames, Duncan Menzies, Mark Stewart, Iain Clark, rh Greg Hammond, Stephen Metcalfe, Stephen Stewart, Rory Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hancock, Matthew Miller, Maria Stride, Mel Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hancock, Mr Mike Mills, Nigel Stunell, Andrew Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hands, Greg Milton, Anne Sturdy, Julian Collins, Damian Harper, Mr Mark Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Swayne, Mr Desmond Colvile, Oliver Harrington, Richard Moore, rh Michael Swinson, Jo Crabb, Stephen Harris, Rebecca Morgan, Nicky Syms, Mr Robert 495 Deferred Division30 MARCH 2011 Deferred Division 496

Tapsell, Sir Peter Weatherley, Mike Hain, rh Mr Peter Nash, Pamela Teather, Sarah Wharton, James Hamilton, Mr David Onwurah, Chi Thurso, John Wheeler, Heather Hanson, rh Mr David Osborne, Sandra Timpson, Mr Edward Whittaker, Craig Harris, Mr Tom Owen, Albert Tredinnick, David Whittingdale, Mr John Havard, Mr Dai Perkins, Toby Truss, Elizabeth Wiggin, Bill Healey, rh John Phillipson, Bridget Turner, Mr Andrew Williams, Roger Hepburn, Mr Stephen Qureshi, Yasmin Tyrie, Mr Andrew Williams, Stephen Heyes, David Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Uppal, Paul Williamson, Gavin Hillier, Meg Reeves, Rachel Vaizey, Mr Edward Willott, Jenny Hilling, Julie Reynolds, Emma Vara, Mr Shailesh Wilson, Mr Rob Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reynolds, Jonathan Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Wilson, Sammy Hood, Mr Jim Riordan, Mrs Linda Walker, Mr Robin Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hopkins, Kelvin Robertson, John Wallace, Mr Ben Wright, Jeremy Irranca-Davies, Huw Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Walter, Mr Robert Wright, Simon Jarvis, Dan Rotheram, Steve Ward, Mr David Young, rh Sir George Johnson, Diana Roy, Mr Frank Watkinson, Angela Zahawi, Nadhim Jones, Graham Roy, Lindsay Jones, Helen Ruane, Chris NOES Jones, Mr Kevan Ruddock, rh Joan Jones, Susan Elan Sarwar, Anas Abrahams, Debbie Creasy, Stella Kaufman, rh Sir Seabeck, Alison Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Cryer, John Gerald Shannon, Jim Alexander, Heidi Cunningham, Alex Keeley, Barbara Sharma, Mr Virendra Ali, Rushanara Cunningham, Mr Jim Kendall, Liz Sheerman, Mr Barry Allen, Mr Graham Cunningham, Tony Lavery, Ian Sheridan, Jim Anderson, Mr David Curran, Margaret Lazarowicz, Mark Shuker, Gavin Austin, Ian Dakin, Nic Leslie, Chris Simpson, David Bailey, Mr Adrian Danczuk, Simon Lewis, Mr Ivan Smith, rh Mr Andrew Bain, Mr William Davidson, Mr Ian Lloyd, Tony Smith, Angela Banks, Gordon Davies, Geraint Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Spellar, rh Mr John Barron, rh Mr Kevin Dobbin, Jim Lucas, Caroline Straw, rh Mr Jack Bayley, Hugh Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Lucas, Ian Stringer, Graham Beckett, rh Margaret Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Mactaggart, Fiona Stuart, Ms Gisela Begg, Dame Anne Doran, Mr Frank Mahmood, Shabana Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Bell, Sir Stuart Dowd, Jim Mann, John Tami, Mark Benn, rh Hilary Doyle, Gemma Marsden, Mr Gordon Thomas, Mr Gareth Berger, Luciana Dromey, Jack McCabe, Steve Timms, rh Stephen Betts, Mr Clive Durkan, Mark McCann, Mr Michael Trickett, Jon Blenkinsop, Tom Eagle, Ms Angela McCarthy, Kerry Turner, Karl Blomfield, Paul Edwards, Jonathan McClymont, Gregg Twigg, Derek Blunkett, rh Mr David Efford, Clive McCrea, Dr William Umunna, Mr Chuka Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Elliott, Julie McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Brennan, Kevin Ellman, Mrs Louise Vaz, rh Keith McGovern, Alison Vaz, Valerie Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Engel, Natascha McGovern, Jim Walley, Joan Brown, Mr Russell Evans, Chris McKechin, Ann Watts, Mr Dave Bryant, Chris Fitzpatrick, Jim Miller, Andrew Whitehead, Dr Alan Campbell, Mr Alan Flint, rh Caroline Mitchell, Austin Williams, Hywel Campbell, Mr Ronnie Flynn, Paul Moon, Mrs Madeleine Chapman, Mrs Jenny Fovargue, Yvonne Morden, Jessica Williamson, Chris Clark, Katy Gapes, Mike Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Wilson, Phil Clarke, rh Mr Tom Gilmore, Sheila Morris, Grahame M. Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Clwyd, rh Ann Glindon, Mrs Mary (Easington) Wood, Mike Coaker, Vernon Goggins, rh Paul Munn, Meg Woodcock, John Coffey, Ann Goodman, Helen Murphy, rh Paul Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Cooper, Rosie Greatrex, Tom Murray, Ian Wright, David Cooper, rh Yvette Green, Kate Nandy, Lisa Wright, Mr Iain Corbyn, Jeremy Greenwood, Lilian Crausby, Mr David Griffith, Nia Creagh, Mary Gwynne, Andrew Question accordingly agreed to.

73WH 30 MARCH 2011 Children with Special Educational 74WH Needs of the Government’s plan to change the school exclusion Westminster Hall legislation, I hope that changes to SEN policy and teacher training will help reduce that percentage. The Wednesday 30 March 2011 exclusion of those pupils is our fault, not theirs, if their needs have not been addressed. The Green Paper also considers how the statementing process should be changed [MR GRAHAM BRADY in the Chair] so that resources are used in a more efficient way. That is the area on which I wish to focus today. Children with Special Educational Needs I was delighted to see that the Green Paper proposes Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting maintaining the principle of a statement of SEN. It be now adjourned.—(Mr Goodwill.) aims to reform the process, so that there is a single 9.30 am education, health and care plan, but still recognises the need for statutory protection for parents and pupils Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): It is a with regard to the provision of SEN support. That is privilege to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Brady. I great comfort and reassurance to all parents. The current am delighted to have secured this debate on provision system is cumbersome, costly and inconsistent, and is for children with special educational needs. The Table seen as being used by some authorities as a delaying Office has advised me that at the outset I should declare tactic to frustrate the wishes of many parents. an interest: my wife is a lawyer who specialises in In spite of that flawed process, the system is seen by educational matters, particularly in representing children parents as the back-stop that can guarantee a level of with special educational needs. It was her frustration provision. If a parent can find their way through the and my outrage, on hearing reports from parents, that maze, a statement can deliver what they want and what sparked my personal interest in this subject, many years their child needs. Clearly, all sides are spending significant ago. The Government’s Green Paper on special educational sums of money considering and discussing the matters. needs prompted my request to the Speaker for this The money spent on advocacy and the challenges involved debate. I hope that it will be the first of many held in the would be better spent on delivering provision. The new House before the publication of the White Paper. approach aims to make the process swifter, simpler and I welcome the approach taken by the Minister, and more efficient, but I have some questions and concerns was fortunate to receive a briefing on her intentions a about how and whether all aspects will work, so I want couple of weeks ago. She and her colleagues have a to talk the Chamber through the current process and genuine passion to make a difference on this issue, and compare that with my understanding of the proposals acknowledge the waste, delay, frustration and anger in the Green Paper. that is often felt about the current system. The Green Paper underlines the Government’s wish to develop a The starting point is typically a parent or teacher less adversarial approach, offer a greater choice to identifying, or raising a question about, a child’s special parents, and encourage and facilitate better working educational need. Once the request for assessment has and co-operation between schools, local education been made, the authority has six weeks to decide whether authorities, health bodies, the independent sector and to assess the child. That will lead to a 10-week period in parents. A multi-agency approach up to the age of 25, which the assessment is conducted. If a local authority with more support from the independent sector and questions or objects to the need for a statutory assessment, increased opportunities for free schools, will offer choice a parent will have to follow a cumbersome process to and continuity. The Green Paper outlines how early appeal via a tribunal; that comes with a significant identification can make a significant difference to outcomes delay. I am aware, for example, of an appeal just to for individuals, and says that teachers need to be better obtain a statutory assessment that was registered on qualified in identifying special educational needs. 10 August 2010 and not heard until mid-January 2011. After the assessment, a decision will be made on Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): I congratulate whether a statement of SEN is needed; if it is, a proposed my hon. Friend on securing the debate. He alluded to statement must be issued within two weeks. The parents the importance of teacher training; does he agree that are given the proposed statement and an opportunity to one of the great strengths of the Green Paper is not just make representations within two weeks. After a further the emphasis it puts on initial teacher training, but the six weeks, the local authority will present its final statement. opportunity for teachers to develop their professionalism throughout their careers? He talks about frustration David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I congratulate more generally, but there must be frustration in the the hon. Gentleman on securing this very important teaching profession with the fact that they have not debate. In my constituency, there are a number of been given the tools to deliver the kind of education schools with children who have special needs. According that he and I want to see right across the board. to the Library research paper, on 9 March 2011, The Alun Cairns: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for Daily Telegraph stated: underlining an important point that is acknowledged in “Thousands of children will be removed from school ‘special the Green Paper and, I think, far and wide. Teacher needs’ registers under Government plans to stop teachers over- training is extremely important in the initial stages, but diagnosing behaviour and learning problems.” so is continued professional development. That is The parents whom I speak to have a real difficulty with particularly important in relation to school exclusions. that; does the hon. Gentleman agree with them? Evidence from Mencap suggests that 72% of pupils who have been excluded have special educational needs. Alun Cairns: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for I believe strongly that lack of support for a special need raising that point. That is certainly an issue that causes is often the cause of disruptive behaviour, and in view worry among many parents. However, we need to recognise 75WH Children with Special Educational 30 MARCH 2011 Children with Special Educational 76WH Needs Needs [Alun Cairns] could possibly work, but we need to understand the breakdown in relationships and the support that parents that the school funding formula almost leads to a therefore need. perverse incentive for schools to classify children as I turn to the statement itself and the issues that can having SEN. Very often, what is needed is additional lead to disagreements and appeals. More often than support in the classroom, rather than a classification of not, draft statements are vague and imprecise. Parents SEN. It is the perverse incentive that is the root of that will seek to make changes in order to gain an appropriately problem, but I accept absolutely that the issue needs to detailed statement that guarantees the provision that be teased out and clarified while the White Paper is they need. Let me offer an example relating to the being drafted. provision of speech and language therapy.A poor statement The whole statementing process is meant to take would read, “The child will have access to a communication 26 weeks, but we need to add in the delays due to the programme,” whereas a well-prepared statement would tribunal, which I have mentioned. If a parent is dissatisfied record, “The child will have direct speech and language with a statement, they can appeal to the tribunal again. therapy with a therapist once a week for a period of Delays such as the August-to-January delay that I 30 minutes.” That detail is important because if the mentioned earlier in relation to the assessment appeal speech and language therapist is sick for a period or will also be incurred in the case of a statement appeal. goes on maternity leave, a local authority will rarely Parents who have to go through two appeals and the move to reappoint a suitably qualified individual, even 26-week statementing process can therefore be left waiting if they can, given the shortage of therapists. If the for a total of 16 months to get a statement confirmed. provision is specified in a statement, parents can demand That delay in securing the right SEN support can be it, even from the private or third sector, if necessary. damaging, particularly to a young child of four, five or Clearly, it is in the interest of the local education six, as 16 months is a significant percentage of a child’s authority to draft a vague statement to prevent such life. demands reaching the High Court. The Green Paper highlights the Government’s will to That leads me to the backdrop of the tension that speed up the process, and proposes cutting the 26-week develops between parents and local authorities. Parents period to 20 weeks. That is welcome, but the wait for the want a detailed, appropriate statement. They sometimes tribunal hearing also needs to be addressed if we are request that support be given more frequently than is genuinely to speed up the process from start to finish. offered, or seek a placement in a specific school, possibly The Green Paper, however, talks about a mediation out of county, and that has financial consequences. In a requirement. In principle, I can see the attraction of small number of cases, an independent special school is that, but I question its merit in practice because of the requested. Parents may even press for one-to-one support new delay that that could introduce. An insistence that in a mainstream school. Those demands, which stem mediation should take place before the right to appeal from the choice already afforded to parents in current would be detrimental due to that delay, and I ask the legislation, will always have cost implications. That is Minister to allow mediation to take place in parallel usually at the core of the differences between the two with the wait for the tribunal hearing. In reality, discussions parties. already take place right up to the day of the tribunal. It Section 86 of the School Standards and Framework is most frustrating for an authority to agree to something Act 1988 states: on the morning of a hearing when the parents have “The duty imposed”— been asking for it for the previous six to eight months. that is, the duty on the authority to comply with parents’ Furthermore, I am not wholly convinced that mediation preferences— will work in practice. Parent partnerships already exist “does not apply…if compliance with the preference would prejudice to allow for mediation, but few people take up the the provision of efficient education or the efficient use of resources”. option because the relationship has usually broken down. A similar term is used in the Green Paper, which states We need to consider the pressure on the parent of an on page 17: autistic child who has to battle month after month with “unless it would not meet the needs of the child” a school and a local education authority, and then face a tribunal. or “would be incompatible with the efficient education of other The Green Paper highlights extended choice for parents, children”. but we need to recognise that legislation already offers parents significant choice. It is often the disagreement It is obvious why such clauses and statements need to be caused by the difference between the wishes of parents included in legislation and Green Papers, but as long as and the offer from the local education authority that they are, we will always end up with parents rightly leads to tribunal proceedings. demanding more for their children and local authorities seeking to reduce provision on the basis of cost. I do not see how legislation could be drafted without such a Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Might clause to protect the public purse, but it will always be not the term “mediation” often be used to talk the the point on which disagreements will arise. parent out of getting their child statemented, and to let One option could be a better definition of what a the school authorities off their responsibility to ensure parent can expect, but that focuses on inputs rather appropriate education for the child? than outputs and runs against the principle of facilitating the best outcomes possible, which is at the core of the Alun Cairns: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for Green Paper. I have no doubt that many measures in the that intervention. It underlines a point that I plan to Green Paper will make a significant difference in supporting make later about the support that parents need. Mediation children with special educational needs. Early identification, 77WH Children with Special Educational 30 MARCH 2011 Children with Special Educational 78WH Needs Needs a multi-agency approach, and assessment by health My worry is that the parents of some children with visitors in particular—the number of health visitors is special educational needs will not have the necessary to increase—are extremely welcome. The simplification capacity; many may have special educational needs of school action and school action plus is welcomed by themselves. It angers me that those with the resources parents, because they are often seen as a delay to the and the capacity who can work their way through the statutory assessment that I referred to earlier. system will get what they need, but the children of parents who cannot afford it or cannot work their way David Simpson: The hon. Gentleman mentioned the through the system will be left without appropriate shortage of speech and language therapists. Would he provision. I am sure that the Minister will agree that agree that that is a key component of all this? There is a stopping those who can is not an option, and that the major shortage of therapists across the whole of the challenge is to deliver a system that provides the right United Kingdom, and the Government need to do support at the outset to those who cannot. something to encourage young people into that profession. I am grateful for the support that I have received for Alun Cairns: I am grateful for that intervention. this debate, and for the interventions that have been Without a doubt, the shortage of speech and language made. I hope the Minister will accept my comments as a therapy is a significant difficulty, but as I highlighted positive welcome for the Green Paper. earlier, if need for it is recorded in the statement of special educational needs, parents can rightly demand 9.49 am it, and can even go to the High Court to secure it. I am familiar with some cases where that has been done. Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): I am pleased to speak However, I worry about those pupils who need speech in this debate under your chairmanship, Mr Brady. I and language therapy support but who do not have a congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of statement. The shortage of such support does not make Glamorgan (Alun Cairns). He is a passionate Conservative, things easy for local authorities, assuming that they and he has demonstrated that today. I was astonished at have the resources to provide it, and it naturally drives the level of expertise he displayed, and I learned a lot up costs. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for from his speech. raising that point. As a candidate and now as a Member of Parliament, Improved training of teachers will make a positive I have been very pleased to speak to Harlow parents difference in reducing special educational needs later whose children have special needs. I am a supporter of on. The point about speech and language therapy is the Harlow Parents of Autistic Children Together, or particularly relevant, because if support is provided PACT, and I have often met its chair, Sam Fancett, and early on, soon after screening at the age of two and a vice-chair, Wendy Merry, and others. They are very IT half, which is mentioned in the Green Paper, that can friendly, and we usually speak via Blackberry messenger. save significant sums later. I would like to believe that I want to raise on their behalf some problems that are the Minister recognises the importance of that issue. sometimes thought to be little things, but actually make Budgets for parents to buy services directly will also a big difference. help significantly. That is the principle of choice. One First, parents believe that it would be helpful if more example that I can offer relates to sensory integration special schools could specialise—for example, in autism therapy, which local education authorities fail to recognise therapy—instead of being just an alternative to mainstream but the parents of autistic children value hugely. That schools when children can no longer cope. If that is service is provided by specially trained occupational impossible, more mainstream schools could develop a therapists. specialised autism unit on site, or a unit could be shared More explanation is needed of how budgets will be between several schools. At present, I understand that, allocated, so that parents can exercise the choice and if a parent chooses a school that is more suited to their freedom that we want to give them. Will it be on a child’s needs, but is outside their catchment area, they banding basis? If so, it will lead to further challenges must provide their own transport, and sign a disclaimer and appeals aimed at moving the child to a higher band saying that they will never request transport in future. that would give greater access to resources and better We all know that funds are limited, but there should not provision. The new assessment regime and joint working be a postcode lottery in such cases. As the free school with various agencies will simplify the process, but there reforms come through, I urge the Government to look needs to be clarification on whether there will be a at home-to-school transport and access to expert special single assessment regime as well. education. Finally, I want to underline my concern for parents Secondly, why are parents of children on the autistic who do not have the capacity to challenge the system. spectrum, especially those with severe difficulties, unable This point was made earlier in an intervention. To get to get a blue badge to park their car? Parents of those the best chance of securing provision, a parent may children struggle daily, sometimes in extremely difficult employ an advocate, independent speech and language situations. They have told me that parking a car when a therapists, occupational therapists and educational child is having a meltdown can be highly dangerous. psychologists to give evidence to challenge the local The Government are cracking down on people who authority’s case. After all, the local authority has ready abuse blue badges, but will the Minister do what she can access to such services. Clearly, that would be a significant to nudge local authorities to make blue badges more expense for any individual or family, but if their call is available to those with autistic children or children with that an independent special school costing, say, up to significant special needs? It is worth taking much stronger £100,000 a year is the only way to secure provision for action against those who wrongly park in bays for their child, paying such experts at the appeal stage disabled drivers, because that causes incredible difficulties could be seen by them as an investment. for those with severe disabilities. 79WH Children with Special Educational 30 MARCH 2011 Children with Special Educational 80WH Needs Needs [Robert Halfon] Another problem is that the computer always seems to say no. Why should it say no to parents who are Thirdly, on special educational needs, there is a question struggling against the odds? Decisions are arbitrary or about arbitrary limits. A constituent of mine, Jackie tied to arbitrary age limits and catchment areas, which Stedman, has suffered a constant battle to get a good are largely random or created for bureaucratic convenience. education for her two children. Again and again, she has run up against problems due to random limits on Alun Cairns: My hon. Friend is making some extremely financial support, which are tied to age rather than to important points about the arbitrary limits. My need, or to children’s potential to learn. I accept, of understanding is that the legislation does not provide course, the overall need to cut the deficit, and to be for such arbitrary limits. We need to provide for the careful with our finances, but the sums involved are not child, but local authorities use the system to prevent a significant in the context of the overall budget—in this child from gaining access. If a parent battles through case, that of Essex county council. the maze of the statementing process, they may win, but bearing in mind the delays to which I referred, very few, The context is that the council pays for home-to-school sadly, have the resources or the capacity to do that. transport for Jackie’s two children, who both travel in the same car to the same school, but the council is now Robert Halfon: My hon. Friend is exactly right. My saying that, according to the rules, it can pay for one point is that given what parents must face, and their child, and not the other, even though the car will have to difficulties with special needs children, why should they make the journey anyway. The absurdity is extraordinary. have to battle? Mrs Jackie Stedman has spent years That is unaffordable for the family, and it feels like a battling with the courts and relevant authorities to try “Little Britain” sketch, when “the computer says no”, to obtain proper treatment for her children. She has just because one of her children is now 16. often been successful, but why should she have to go through that in the first place? To borrow a phrase, our I understand the need for local government to set public services need to speak “human”, and that means criteria, but the rules sometimes seem arbitrary, and looking at each individual case on its merits, and talking hurt decent families who simply want a good education to the parents and children involved. for their children. A similar problem is seen with therapies offered by local primary care trusts. Sam Fancett gives Mr Mark Williams: Perhaps I should have declared the example that not all children are offered sensory an interest earlier, Mr Brady, as a former teacher and integration therapy or auditory integration therapy. It still a member of the NASUWT. Does my hon. Friend depends on their PCT, but those therapies can transform agree that schools find themselves in the middle of a children’s lives, and drastically improve behaviour at an conundrum? Teachers may see the problem of children early age. She also queries why speech therapy seems to on the autistic spectrum or with dyslexia and make a finish at the end of year 7. Again, that seems to be an diagnosis, but they are frustrated because the resources arbitrary limit, which does not relate to children’s needs and support that parents rightly demand are also lacking or potential. for teachers. They want to get on with the job. They A potential casualty of the difficult economy was may have identified the problem and know the direction going to be a Thursday evening session of respite care of travel, but LEAs are often lacking resources. in a Harlow community centre called Sam’s Place. Robert Halfon: My hon. Friend is right. If the teacher Thankfully, the council worked hard to rescue it, and I is well placed to understand and diagnose the problem, congratulate the leader of Harlow council, Andrew the matter should be sorted out from there. However, Johnson, Councillor Joel Charles and council officers they often have to wade through relentless bureaucracy. on their hard work in achieving a solution. One of the It does not matter which local authority is involved, it is lessons that came out of that was that most parents are always “rule this, regulation that.” That is what makes happy to take on the responsibility of running services lives difficult. for their children, but we cannot ask them to take on legal liabilities, compliance duties and other red tape. Parents are used to fighting to get a fair deal for their Parents with children with special needs have enough to children, but we must not burden them with tons of worry about without having to do all that. I know that forms, legal liabilities and compliance. We have to make the Government are looking at such matters in the it easier. I know that the Minister is looking into the context of the big society reviews, and I would be matter, and I would be grateful if she reassured my grateful if the issue could be specifically considered. constituents about the direction of Government policy.

As I have suggested, the solution must involve the big 10 am society. At the moment, if someone with an autistic child wants to talk to the local education authority or Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): I did not plan PCT, it is like trying to get through to a mobile phone to speak in the debate. Many hon. Members take a company with instructions to press 1, press 2 and so on. strong interest in this subject, but there are undoubtedly Parents need a much more personal service. That may other meetings and Committees sitting this morning cost a lot of money, but a reduction in the number of that have prevented them from attending the debate. I appeals and complaints might save money in the long anticipated contributions from some of those hon. Members run. Essex county council has been moving towards to whom I have often listened when they spoke about that, but the results are patchy, and I urge it to use its this subject. Since I have the opportunity to speak, back-office savings to hire more, dedicated, proper however, I would like to raise one or two issues. relationship managers—human beings—who would I congratulate the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan understand the issues and liaise directly with families (Alun Cairns) on securing the debate. It is an interesting such as those in the Harlow PACT. time for such a debate due to the publication of the 81WH Children with Special Educational 30 MARCH 2011 Children with Special Educational 82WH Needs Needs Green Paper and the consultation. If we return to the support. The hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) subject in a few months, I suspect that we will have described the support network of parents in a more heard more from our constituents who are beginning to urban setting. Such things exist in rural areas, but for all engage with the process and to look at the issues set out the reasons outlined, there are challenges in getting by my hon. Friend the Minister in the Green Paper. together because of difficulties with transport that can If we look back at educational experiences over the be acute. The determination to bring health providers generations, it is clear that there is now—thankfully—more to the table for debates and discussions is crucial, and I recognition of the needs of pupils. Rather than seeking pay tribute to the Minister for the work that she has to exclude or blame pupils for the challenges they face, done in securing that initial collaboration with the usually with huge courage and fortitude, there is now Department of Health. I look forward to working with more recognition of those problems. Strategies have other hon. Members to ensure that that collaboration is been developed to support pupils who face those various delivered and becomes the reality. challenges and experiences. I want to pick up on the point abut providers of Of course there is an issue of resources, and the education that offer an inclusive model. That has been a challenge set out in the Green Paper to bring different subject of much debate, and it is right to ensure that agencies together and to come forward collectively with special schools exist for those families for whom that is solutions is crucial for a number of reasons. As hon. the right solution. At times, however, we do not give Members have pointed out, families going through such enough recognition to those schools that have determined problems often have to pursue multiple challenges with to offer an inclusive programme of education. I recently different agencies working alongside each other. Given met with Mr Ewan Murray, the head teacher of Robartes how the system is currently configured, they have not junior school in Bodmin. He spoke about some of the only to fight with the local authority or even the school, pupils in the school who were let down by other educational if things have reached that stage, but to take on the local environments but who are now thriving. They travel health trust to receive the provision that they need. past several other schools in order to get to his school During my time representing the larger constituency because it specialises in ensuring that everybody works of North Cornwall, as it was then constituted, I was together and provides support. involved in a fantastic campaign run by a wonderful I sit on the Committee that is consideringthe Education woman called Sandy Lawrence. Sadly, the boundary Bill currently going through the House. The hon. Member has changed so I no longer have the benefit of her for Vale of Glamorgan mentioned the approach taken experience as a constituent, but she continues to work to exclusion, but the other side of the coin is to ensure across Cornwall for children with Down’s syndrome. that we have confidence in early intervention so that She brought to my attention the ludicrous provision in exclusion is a last resort. Head teachers get frustrated if place for providing mobility aids for children who are the situation reaches a point at which they need a perhaps slow to develop with walking, and pointed out permanent exclusion but know that an appeal could the rather strange rules put in place by the primary care overturn that and put the child back in the school. trusts that are split up across Cornwall. There may have been earlier failures, and the Green A contract was provided by a neighbouring health Paper needs to look at that to identify those problems trust to supply those pieces of equipment, but the and to ensure that the situation is dealt with at an early commissioning was simply not up to the job or robust stage. enough. When I, together with Sandy whose campaign Under the current system, which is due to change if it is, began to probe that situation, no one was able to the Bill is enacted in its current form, if the current say how much of a service and how many pieces of appeals panel puts someone back in a school, the equipment had been provided for the money handed relationship with that school has often broken down over by the local PCT, and over what period that had and can be difficult to rebuild. The measures in the Bill happened and for what purpose. The management concerning schools retaining an involvement and a information was dreadful. Sandy was going through responsibility for that pupil, and the provision they that experience on behalf of a child who was approaching receive elsewhere, is a useful model. I welcome the work school age, and that equipment was crucial for engagement that will be done on that through pilot schemes and so and moving into school. That fight was completely on. Crucially, we must deal with problems early on so separate from anything to do with education, but it is that the situation never gets near to exclusion. crucial to bring those things together so that collaborative I congratulate the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan approaches can be drawn up. on securing this debate and raising this issue at the time Such an approach would also make it harder for of the consultation. I suspect that we will return to the different agencies to hide from each other. As we know, debate as other hon. Members get more involved and when resources are at stake, there is a tendency to say wish to contribute to the process. The determination set that it is someone else’s problem. If there is any opportunity out by the Minister in the Green Paper to bring agencies to pass things on to someone else’s budget, people will together, particularly those in the health sector, is crucial, grasp that opportunity. That is done not out of a sense and I hope that it comes to fruition. It can make a huge of malice, but because people are under pressure. If we difference for families and children who have been let could develop a more collaborative approach, we will down in the past. come up with solutions that will work better for families and children. That would be the case in the sort of situation I have outlined, which has improved drastically. 10.9 am We know that child and adolescent mental health Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): It is a services are patchy across the country, and in a rural pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Brady. area such as my constituency it is challenging to provide I thank the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun 83WH Children with Special Educational 30 MARCH 2011 Children with Special Educational 84WH Needs Needs [Dr William McCrea] experience as a Member of Parliament is that my constituents have great difficulty in getting help when Cairns) for bringing this very important subject to the they really need it. Let us be honest: there are parents Chamber. I was a little hesitant—I am sure that my hon. who do not have a great interest in the educational Friend the Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) attainment of their children. Every parent should have felt the same—about taking part in the debate, even a great interest in that, but not every parent does. Not though I have a passion for the subject, because there is every parent has the capacity to understand the great a difference between the arrangements in our part of need for education for their children and how to get the the United Kingdom under the devolved Administration best possible education for their children with special and those on the mainland. However, we can learn from needs. each other’s experiences, and it is vital that we do. The There are other parents, who have a real concern, yet devolved Administration should examine the current they come up against walls, barriers and obstacles, proposals and see what can be taken from them and which in the past they were not able to get over. We what can be learned from them. must ensure that we give the best possible advice and Some of the statements made by Ministers on this help to parents at what is a critical time, because many subject are certainly helpful. According to the pack of the children whom we are talking about are losing prepared by the Library for the debate, the Government years of their lives educationally that they will never be say that they will tackle the problem, which has never able to get back. It is vital that parents get the best been addressed before. It then mentions a number of advice at the right time and that therefore the child gets things that the Government propose. This Minister—the the best possible education, because that sets the stage Children’s Minister—says: not only for their educational attainment, but for their “We have heard time and time again that parents are frustrated job prospects and everything else. It is vital that parents with endless delays to getting the help their child needs and by get help at the appropriate time. If that is what the being caught in the middle when local services don’t work together.” Minister is setting her mind to, that will be of great The Under-Secretary of State for Health, the hon. help. Member for Guildford (Anne Milton), who is responsible The Government also propose to ensure that assessment for public health, says: and plans run from birth to the age of 25. If I may, I will “It is vital that children, whatever their needs, get the best relate some of the experiences that I have had. In possible start in life.” Northern Ireland, when children in special schools turn The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong 18, they go outside the education system. They may Learning says: have a mental capacity of seven, but they have a birth “This Government wants to do more to help people overcome certificate that says that they are 18, and they leave their barriers that hold them back.” special school and go outside the education system. I All those statements are grand, but quite often we have am passionately angry about that, because what other had fancy statements from Ministers in the past. We child stops their educational attainment and advancement will judge them by what they do, because statements of at seven years of age? No other child is allowed to stop special educational needs will, without adequate finances, at seven. Because the person has a birth certificate and a just be statements. body that say that they are 18, they are moved aside. They have very special educational needs, but those Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): The hon. needs are not being met after a particular age. That is a Gentleman is talking about statements by Ministers disgrace and an indictment of any society that allows it. and politicians. Many parents are concerned not only I have in the past begged Ministers to intervene in this about the statement of special educational needs that matter; I believe that they must tackle the issue. I trust their child receives, but about the quality of the education that we will get answers on that. that their child receives. That is about the way in which Many parents are frustrated when it comes to getting their child is able to learn and whether their school, statements for their children. Many do not have a whether it be a private school—an independent school—a sufficient understanding of what they need to do to get school in the voluntary aided sector or whatever, is able their child statemented and they come up against an to assist them. The issue is more the help that is provided, education system that fights against that. There is a rather than the statement for the child. constant battle and, to be honest, many parents give up. The only person who loses is the child. We are talking Dr McCrea: Yes. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his about children and young people who need our help. intervention. The statements by Ministers that I read That is where we as politicians come in. We set the out contain fundamental principles that the Government guidelines. are setting down. There is a review of this area, and the Government intend to make progress. All those Mr Mark Williams: Coming from one of the devolved fundamental statements by Ministers are important. nations as well, I fully agree with the hon. Gentleman. All I am saying is that we will judge them by the actions There are lessons to learn from those of us in Wales. I thereafter, because the statements by Ministers will am glad that the Minister is to have a meeting with my amount to nothing but air if they are not followed colleagues in Autism Cymru to talk about some of the through and action is not taken to give the best possible issues; we have managed to fix up a meeting. The hon. educational opportunity to children with special needs. Gentleman is right to highlight the corrosive effect on Like my hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann, young people. There has been a lot of talk in this debate I have special needs schools in my constituency and I about the rights of parents, and I absolutely concur know that many parents are battling for their children. with that, but we are also talking about the rights of When it comes to the statementing of children, my children. That is why early diagnosis and follow-through 85WH Children with Special Educational 30 MARCH 2011 Children with Special Educational 86WH Needs Needs are so important. We are stacking up huge problems for As hon. Members will know, I have responsibility for children from key stage 1 right the way through the this issue as shadow Children’s Minister, but I also have education system and into young adulthood, as the a personal interest in improving provision for children hon. Gentleman said, if we do not address these issues and young people with special educational needs, because at the earliest opportunity. my son is one of those people. He displayed delayed speech development and did not utter his first word Dr McCrea: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his until he was three. Then, learning to read just did not intervention. I wholeheartedly agree with what he said. happen. Despite the fact that he was obviously very May I draw attention to this issue? We have talked bright and able, and despite my constant appeals to his about parents battling, but why should parents alone teachers to help him, he was 10 years old before one have to battle on this issue? Many do not even know amazing teacher, who understood SEN because she how to battle, and parents should not have to know how happened to have a son with SEN herself, eventually to battle. We are putting the responsibility on the parent, helped. My son was diagnosed as severely dyslexic, and if the parent does not battle, the child loses out. although highly intelligent, and he was eventually statemented. Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman is making an excellent My son missed out on six years of learning because contribution. I was one of those parents who battled none of his teachers spotted that he was dyslexic until through the system, as I will say in my contribution. he was nine, when the statementing process began. I did Does he agree that more should be done to help to not spot that he was dyslexic, because I had never had a support parents? Often, parents feel that they are the dyslexic child or come across anybody with dyslexia. only ones who have ever been through this experience. Even though I was constantly asking what was wrong There is no signposting; it is almost as though the with my son, it was not until I met the teacher I provision that is available is a big secret. Should local mentioned and explored the problem with her that he authorities provide more information to parents on was diagnosed by an educational psychologist. what is available and how to find their way through the My son is now thriving, having done well in his system? GCSEs. He got more than five grade Cs and above, but Dr McCrea: I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. he would not have got the English baccalaureate, because I wholeheartedly agree. Many parents are in a panic dyslexics do not do foreign languages, as Members may because they do not know at all how to surmount the know. At the moment, he is at college, studying a course barriers that are put in their way. They want to do the he loves, with aspirations of going to university and best for their children—I am speaking about those who taking up a career in digital games design. That shows want to do the best for their children—and want to the difference that good provision can make, but I battle for their children. Parents have come to me in cannot say that we got there without a fight, and hon. tears. They say, “I’m fighting for my child, because I Members have already discussed the battles parents will not always be here. Therefore, I want to give my face. For too many children and their parents, fighting child the best opportunity.” Parents have come to me the system becomes a daily struggle. who are broken mentally because they have tried their Having had those experiences—good and bad—of best, but it seems that obstacles and barriers are always the current system, I was as pleased as anyone when placed in their way. That is not what our society should Ministers announced that they would review it with the be doing. We should be signposting the way. When we intention of removing at least some of that struggle. come to a barrier, there must be a way over it, if we are Having finally seen the Green Paper earlier this month, to have the best education for our children, and especially I am pleased to say that I can, in principle, agree with a those with special needs. lot of the proposals it contains. Many of them have In conclusion, I once again thank the hon. Member already been discussed, and the expansion of Achievement for Vale of Glamorgan for bringing this important issue for All, improved teacher training and a simplified and before us. I am delighted that the Government have more holistic assessment process will be positive steps, identified some of the issues and have proposed measures, as long as the new education, health and care plans have but the proof of the pie will be in the eating. the same legal rights as statements with regard to health and social care and not just education. I also broadly 10.20 am support the introduction of personal budgets, provided that there is adequate local commissioning to ensure Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland that there is a choice of services for parents and children West) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve under your and specialised support to help them make their choices. chairmanship, Mr Brady. I congratulate the hon. Member In addition, those who do not want to make a choice, for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) on securing this but want it made for them, should not be forced to important and timely debate. He is a passionate and make one. assiduous advocate for his constituents, and especially for children and young people with special educational Unfortunately, while the Green Paper was being consulted needs, and his contribution this morning further underlined on and drafted, the Government’s policies across the that. He showed his expertise and wide knowledge, and board started to alter the landscape for SEN provision. I am confident that he will go on to make a name for There are now real concerns right across the sector—I himself on this issue; indeed, he probably already has have had been told about them in the numerous briefings this morning. I also pay tribute to other hon. Members I have received, as I am sure other Members have—that for their excellent contributions and interventions. I the positive proposals to come out of the Green Paper welcome the fact that we have had some new faces and may not work in practice. For example, the Government some new voices on this issue. want schools and the NHS to work more closely together 87WH Children with Special Educational 30 MARCH 2011 Children with Special Educational 88WH Needs Needs [Mrs Sharon Hodgson] Act 2008. As Members may be aware, I introduced that legislation as a private Member’s Bill so that we could at a local level, yet Ministers are forcing through legislation better monitor the progress of all children with SEN. that will make that much more difficult. The hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan tried to The Government also want children’s centres to be introduce a similar measure in the Welsh Assembly, and hubs where parents can access specialist help and support I was disappointed to learn that he was not successful in for their toddlers, yet they have cut and destabilised the that endeavour. fund that pays for those centres. As we have heard, There may well be over-identification in some instances, research by the Daycare Trust estimates that up to 250 but it is clear that there is a lot of under-identification in centres will close in the coming year, with a far greater others, as we have heard. We have only to consider the number looking to reduce opening hours or services. fact that at least 60%, and sometimes up to 80%, of In addition, the Government highlight the importance young offenders are identified as having undiagnosed of skilled specialists such as educational psychologists speech, language and communication difficulties to realise and speech and language therapists, yet councils up and that lots of kids going through the system need help but down the country are being forced to lose those are not being identified at all. More worryingly, they are professionals right now because of the large, top-heavy more likely to have self-fulfilling labels slapped on them funding cuts forced on them by the Minister’s colleagues and to be told that they are naughty or lazy. at the Department for Communities and Local A greater focus on early identification is bound to Government. Unfortunately, the Green Paper does not throw up a much bigger case load, so how can the address those realities, which will make it much harder Government talk about making arbitrary cuts to the to implement any of the positive proposals in it. numbers of pupils receiving help? As for those pupils Last week, the Minister told me across the Dispatch who would benefit from better-trained teachers and Box that she acknowledges that councils have tough programmes such as Achievement for All, how would decisions to make, and we all know why that is. She the Minister ensure that sufficient training and programmes said, however, that she hopes the Green Paper will are in place in every school, before sweeping away improve provision across the board. I always thought school action status? that the point of being a Minister and making policy From the feedback I have had from the sector, I could was to take decisions and make things happen, not just go into minute detail on many points, but I will save to hope that they do. In this case, unfortunately, I fear that for another day, because I am sure that hon. that the Government are intent on leaving things to Members want to hear from the Minister. We actually chance and that a system already criticised for being a have more time than usual and I want to ensure she has postcode lottery could become even more of one. her full allocation. There are real concerns that the Government are I think we can all agree that every child deserves all ending the assumption of inclusion in favour of an the support they need to access the curriculum and assumption of segregation. Parents should have a choice develop into a capable and well-rounded adult, whether of school based on which will be best for their child, but that means complex care packages, adapted teaching or what choice will there be if mainstream schools are an hour a week with a specialist dyslexia tutor. Whatever stripped of the resources to provide for varying levels of comes out of the consultation on the Green Paper, a need to fund the establishment of academies and free promise that every child gets the support they need schools? must be central to it. Given that secondary schools are to be ranked according to the narrow and prescriptive requirements of the English baccalaureate—as I said, no dyslexic child will 10.30 am be able to achieve it, because of the foreign language element—and that the contextual value added measure The Minister of State, Department for Education will be dropped, there is a perverse incentive for head (Sarah Teather): It is a pleasure to serve under your teachers to turn away or put off pupils they know will chairmanship, Mr Brady; I think it the first time I have be more difficult to teach. The admissions and exclusions been able to do so. I begin by congratulating the hon. reforms in the Education Bill, which is currently in Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) on securing Committee, will make it much easier for head teachers the debate. I am grateful to have this opportunity so to do that. Cuts to legal aid will leave parents struggling soon after we published the Green Paper. It is useful to even to appeal such decisions. learn what hon. Members think and hear the feedback We know that children on school action and school from their constituencies. The hon. Gentleman said he action plus are already 20 times more likely to be hoped there would be other opportunities; I do, too. As excluded than those with a statement. We know that hon. Members are able to go into their constituencies because having that status means that the needs and and use the consultation to talk to their local groups, progress of such children are recorded. If the support they will have the opportunity to bring that feedback to they currently receive is reduced, they will be even more the House, so that we can discuss it. vulnerable to exclusion. I therefore share many parents’ I am aware that the hon. Gentleman has a long-standing fears that the abolition of that system of recognition interest in the subject. He also mentioned his wife; that could mean many children with real barriers to learning is a real power partnership. We are grateful for the finding that they are no longer able to access specialist expertise he and other hon. Members brought to a support, with the result that they fall further behind in good-quality debate—Members including the hon. Member school or are excluded. Effectively, they will be swept for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson), under the carpet in terms of the monitoring provided who spoke of her experience of battling to get support for in the Special Educational Needs (Information) for her child. 89WH Children with Special Educational 30 MARCH 2011 Children with Special Educational 90WH Needs Needs As hon. Members will be aware, the core of the ended his contribution. At the moment, unfortunately, reform that we are trying to bring to the system is quite one needs to be highly articulate and, too often, financially radical, and it will take time to bed down and to get it able, in order to get the best out of the system. That is right. Unfortunately, I am not able to promise that simply not good enough. We have to make the system overnight we will be able to transform the experience simpler and more straightforward, so that every family radically for every family who has a disabled child or can get what their child deserves: the best possible one with special educational needs. In some of the support and care. things that we are doing, it will take time to change As a number of hon. Members have said, the current attitudes and mindsets. That is why we are taking the system is cumbersome, costly and inconsistent. The first approach of using pilots—so that we can begin to roll thing we have tried to do is take some of the adversarial them out and learn from the experience. nature out of the process. Again, I cannot promise that Core to the reform is the change to a nought-to-25 we will never have tension between families and services system that is more continuous. I want the system to be providing for their child; that is not realistic. However, more focused on outcomes, rather than focusing just on there is a lot we can do to reduce that, so that it does not inputs. A lot of the tension arises partly because people come immediately, and so that we change the nature of get hung up on the question, “How many hours?”, the conversation from the outset. rather than thinking about where we want the child and We want to begin with the idea of a local offer, so that family to be in 12 months’ time. We should have that when someone first encounters the local authority or type of conversation from the outset. We should look at health service, they are not told: “Prove that you need the child and family and ask: what are the realistic help.” Local services should be coming to parents and goals? Where do we want to be next year? What are the saying, “This is what we normally provide; now let’s realistic goals, long term? We should then put in place have the discussion about how we tailor that, and what the right kind of support to get children and families we need to do for you in your situation.” That should into that position for the long term. change the relationship from the beginning. That again was a point made by the hon. Member for Vale of Alun Cairns: I recognise the focus on outcomes, but Glamorgan. The attempt to get people to talk at the end does the Minister also recognise that parents can only of the process can be unsuccessful if trust broke down guarantee the inputs to deliver the outcomes through a right at the beginning. That was highlighted for us by statement of special educational needs? Of course, it the Council for Disabled Children, which spoke passionately will be called something different and will have a slightly about the need for a local offer. In areas where that has different form if the Green Paper becomes a White been developed, it has changed the relationship from Paper. As I tried to highlight, if a therapist is sick or on the beginning. That has been much more fruitful; even maternity leave, provision is rarely replaced during that if parents decide to go all the way through the special period. We will not achieve the outcomes unless there is educational needs and disability tribunal, the nature of a guarantee of the inputs. the conversation can be much better from the beginning. Mainstream schools need to be clearer with families Sarah Teather: I will come to the specifics of the about what they would normally provide for children statementing process. The hon. Gentleman’s contribution with a range of learning difficulties, disabilities or additional on that was helpful. It is about getting the detail right needs. At the moment, there is great inconsistency. It and ensuring that the system works. can be difficult for parents to work out whether their I have mentioned that I want a nought-to-25 process, child’s needs are greater than those normally provided and that it should be more outcomes-focused. It also for in a school—the legal definition of special educational needs to be a joint assessment process. My hon. Friend needs. As a consequence, local authorities will complain the Member for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) said that the tribunal will often make inconsistent decisions that the current system was too costly, often because about whether a statement is required. It is not in people go through it several times—something that the anyone’s interest for all that to be so cloak-and-dagger. hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan also mentioned. Much more can be clearer from the beginning. It is very frustrating for families if they have to go The hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan said that a through multiple assessments, telling the same story lot of the detail did not work. He mentioned the tension over and over again to professionals. That wastes their between outcomes and incomes-focused criteria. I recognise time and the professionals’ time. When I have listened his point, but if we begin with outcomes, it changes the to families speaking about their experience, I have been nature of the discussion. We sometimes hear that families struck by how traumatic it is; they relive the grief they will cling to a statement that may not be suitable for experienced when they first had the diagnosis of the their child’s needs, as those needs have changed. That is disability or special educational need. Every time they not in the interests of the family. If we can focus more tell the story, they are effectively reliving that initial on the outcomes and the support that we need to trauma. When that is combined with the frustration of provide for a family as we move to an agreed set of feeling that nobody is listening to them, it is incredibly goals, families are less likely to cling to unsuitable stressful for families. provision, and more likely to be willing to accept changes We have to streamline the assessment process, so that that might be right for their child. Focusing on outcomes families go through fewer hoops, we come up with one rather than inputs requires a huge change of mindset. plan into which everybody is tied, and people know As I said earlier, of all the things that we are trying to who is responsible for paying for what, rather than there do, that will probably take the longest to bed down. being an endless fight over where that responsibility sits My hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall in different sections of the statement. That picks up the said that going around the loop repeatedly is often point on which the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan expensive. If we do not get children the support that 91WH Children with Special Educational 30 MARCH 2011 Children with Special Educational 92WH Needs Needs [Sarah Teather] The other key point to make about mediation is that it needs to be high-quality. If people are simply going they need early enough, that is also expensive; a greater, through the motions, it will add extra frustration for more serious intervention might be needed later. Many everyone concerned. In the Green Paper, we point to of the families that we spoke to, and the voluntary some examples of good practice, particularly in the organisations that we worked with when drawing up the west midlands. Independent mediation there has made Green Paper, told us that parents use the expensive a real difference to the solutions that parents are being independent school not always for the education that it given, and people have not had to go through the provides, but often because it has therapists on tap, tribunal process. Parents were happier because they had particularly speech and language therapists. As a result much better conversations with local providers. of the frustration of not being able to get speech and I turn to tribunal delays. I was concerned to hear of language therapy through other means, some parents the example given by the hon. Gentleman. The tribunal will push all the way through the tribunal for the in England aims to hear cases within 22 weeks of the expensive independent provision—but that, of course, appeal being registered. We regularly meet the tribunal comes out of the local authority’s budget, and not the at an official level and raise the matter with it, but we health service budget. In the end, there is no incentive will raise the specific point that the hon. Gentleman for local services to work together, or to provide a plan makes. It would help to know whether the case was in that should be paid for jointly.There would be significantly England or Wales. less cost to the public purse in the long term if we could get it right from the beginning. My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan Alun Cairns: It was in England. spoke about delays in the system. It is clearly ridiculous for small children to have to wait six months for the Sarah Teather: That is helpful. We will raise that case necessary support, because they are at a critical period with the tribunal. Personal budgets were alluded to by a in their development. Anything that we can do to speed number of Members, particularly the hon. Member for up that process is important. I hope that the joint Harlow (Robert Halfon). I hope that they will cut some process, the single assessment process, will remove some of the frustration for families. They are a choice, not an of the delays. Many delays are the result of local obligation; families will not be obliged to take up personal authorities having to co-ordinate the expertise of various budgets. We realise that not every family will want to do professionals; that is particularly so with professional so, but some will believe that they would be better able input on health. to make choices about how family life was run if they One of our first priorities, even before we get to the had the freedom to decide how to care for their child. joint process, is the statementing process; we want people That needs to be trialled. Some small-scale pilots have to contribute sooner, more quickly, more rapidly and been run for disabled children in recent years with some more efficiently. It is not good for families to have to elements of the health budget, and we will build on wait. The nub of what we are doing is reducing delay in that. the short term. As for the longer term, I hope that the In the Green Paper, we are consulting on what should pilots will show that having one process speeds things be included in the scheme. One suggestion is that we up. That is a key objective in getting people to work include school transport, which was mentioned by the together. hon. Member for Harlow. I hope that will give families more freedom to decide which school their children Alun Cairns: The Minister rightly focuses on the cut could attend. The obvious thing to include in personal proposed in the Green Paper from 26 weeks to 20 weeks. budgets is key equipment such as speech and language I referred in my speech to a delay in a tribunal taking aids, which were mentioned earlier, and wheelchairs. I place; it took from 10 August last year until mid-January have experience of this as a constituency MP, and I for the case to come to the tribunal. That was far longer know from being involved with the Green Paper that than it took to get the published statement. We should delays in the provision of wheelchairs are unfortunately not forget that a case could be taken to tribunal twice—once extremely common. Indeed, the wait can sometimes be regarding the statutory assessment, and once regarding so long that children have grown out of the wheelchair the statement. What consideration has the Minister by the time it arrives. That is utterly ridiculous. It is a given to that? It would be a significant step forward if waste of public money, and the impact on the child can that wait was curtailed to a reasonable length. be considerable. Indeed, one child in my constituency was not able to attend school while waiting for a new Sarah Teather: The hon. Gentleman need not panic; I wheelchair because the old one was the wrong size and wrote everything down. I may not be able to cover every was giving him sores. That is not good enough. point that he raised as I cannot scribble that quickly, Another obvious candidate for a personal budget is but he raises the very point that I wanted to deal with therapy, particularly speech and language therapy. That next. raises the subject of adequate provision, which was I turn first, however, to what the hon. Gentleman mentioned by the hon. Member for Harlow. I have no said about mediation; he asked whether it would introduce doubt that the joint strategic needs assessment process extra delay. That is absolutely not the intention. When needs to be better at picking up needs, from the ground we roll it out, we want to make it clear to local authorities upwards. The Green Paper commits the Department of that the addition of mediation should not delay the Health to ensuring that the needs assessment is done process of going to the tribunal. The quality of conversation in a way that responds to the needs of families with ought to be better from the outset, so I hope that the disabled children in the area. I hope that that deals process will be more successful. with the point raised by the hon. Gentleman. 93WH Children with Special Educational 30 MARCH 2011 Children with Special Educational 94WH Needs Needs Dan Rogerson: That point is crucial, and it could so that they can make decisions about what is best for represent a huge step forward. We are obviously focusing their child. Too often, however, it ends up being Hobson’s on younger people, and my experience as a constituency choice, because they feel that the mainstream school MP is that direct payment with personal budgeting has does not have the capability to support their child. That worked for social care; there is often an element of is why we want a focus on teacher training and the health care as well, but at the moment that cannot be Achievement for All pilot. provided through primary care trusts with a direct I want to focus on Achievement for All and to pick payment model. That is incredibly frustrating, and it is up the point about over-diagnosis raised by the hon. a barrier to getting a package that works for families. I Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea). Achievement have had that experience with families who are caring for All is a pilot programme that ran in 10 local authorities for older people, and I believe that lessons can be and 450 schools. Schools and parents found that it learned right the way across. substantially increased the attainment of children in schools. That was true in special schools, in which Sarah Teather: Absolutely. We intend rolling that out children might have highly complex needs and a statement, as a legal entitlement, and that will bite on local services. and in mainstream schools, in which children might be Local authorities are going to have to budget, rather on school action or school action plus. The improvement than agreeing to put something in a plan and then in attainment stemmed from the quality of the interaction dodging the responsibility for paying for it. If parents between the school and parents, and between teachers are legally entitled to request provision—local services and the child. will not know which parents will request it—local services Under the pilot, there is a greater focus on setting will have to budget for that. We expect that services will goals, on monitoring the attainment of those goals and be provided on the ground, but we need to test the on sharing information with families and making sure system with pilots to ensure that there is a bite on all that they are involved in their child’s attainment. Head services. We want to ensure that all families get the teachers said that when they used the programme it services that they have been promised, and do not find changed their mindset; it was about not money, but themselves in the same position as before, where something attitude. That attitude affected not just the children would be written in section 3 or 5 of a statement but not with whom teachers were working on the SEN register, be provided by local health services. but all the children in the school who had additional My hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion needs. (Mr Williams) has spoken on a number of occasions Some Members implied that we were arbitrarily taking about the frustration of teachers. He said that it is not children off the SEN register. Though the powers of only parents who are frustrated; teachers often feel Government are great, they are not great enough to inadequately prepared to work with children with a mandate the press to report what we say accurately. range of additional specialist needs. However, the hon. Unfortunately, the press like to write about numbers. Member for Washington and Sunderland West told us They multiplied our figures and came up with a large that one inspirational teacher made the difference for number that may or may not be our target. I was very her child. That is the point. We hear many fantastic clear with them at the press briefing, as I have been clear examples of professionals who lead practice, but even with them since, that the Government do not have a one professional who believes in a child and who takes target for the number of children they want off the SEN responsibility can make such a difference. They can be register. What we want is schools to work with children teachers or other professionals with whom the family to ensure they fulfil their potential. come into contact. That kind of practice needs to be When Achievement for All was rolled out in some much more common, which is why we propose improving schools, it was found that the increase in attainment was initial teacher training. We will use both special and so great that children no longer needed to be on the mainstream schools for teaching purposes to ensure SEN register. Surely that should be welcomed by everybody. that professionals learn from the good practice of others. This is not about arbitrarily reducing numbers. We will also focus on continuing professional development, using both online specialist material, some of which Mrs Hodgson: I am listening with great interest to the was launched last week, and scholarship funds to ensure Minister. She has clarified many of the points that have that teachers and teaching assistants have access to been raised. The media may have come to their conclusions funds to gain a greater specialism. because they felt that the figure of 21% of children The point about teaching assistants is new; we have a being diagnosed with SEN was too high. I definitely new way of thinking about their role. As many families read that in the media. know, teaching assistants often have more experience than the classroom teacher of working with children Sarah Teather: Unfortunately, I am not in control of with additional needs. By giving them an opportunity what the media write. Ofsted said that too many children to develop their career, we may well bring to the teaching are diagnosed with special educational needs; it said the profession many more individuals who have a real number could be as high as one in four. Let me repeat background, interest and focus on this subject. that we are not setting a target for the number of Let me touch on the issue of choice, to which the children we want off the SEN register. hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West We have changed the school action and school action and my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall plus criteria because schools said that they were bureaucratic referred. The point about trying to reverse the bias is and not very helpful. At the start of this debate, there exactly about choice. If there is currently a bias in one was an exchange about whether there is a financial direction or another, that is not about choice. The focus incentive for schools to use school action and school of our Green Paper is on improving choice for families, action plus. There is no financial incentive, because in 95WH Children with Special Educational 30 MARCH 2011 Children with Special Educational 96WH Needs Needs [Sarah Teather] face complicated and diverse barriers to living a normal life, and that is an issue that should not be addressed by most cases the funds are already delegated to schools. the Department for Education alone. I will take up his We have got rid of contextual value added, which point with the Department for Communities and Local Ofsted said was an incentive, in terms of league tables. Government. The issue is much more complex. Teachers will sometimes In the last couple of minutes that I have left, let me label children as having SEN because they think that pick up on as many points as I can. The Department of that is the right thing to do; we should not always Health is considering the future training and development assume malicious motives. Teachers believe that the of speech and language therapists as part of its wider right thing to do is to label a child as having SEN, consultation on the work force. whereas what they probably need to do is work closely Exclusions were referred to by a number of hon. with that child, raise their attainment, and work out Members. The proposals laid out in the Education Bill what the barriers are that are preventing them from and in the schools White Paper will substantially improve moving forward. the situation for vulnerable young people because it will It is important to identify need at an early stage. This make schools responsible for what happens to them morning, Dame Clare Tickell launched her report on after they leave that school. The other proposal that we the review of the early years foundation stage. It will have put in our Green Paper is that if a child’s behaviour take us some time to go through the detail of her is not responding to normal behavioural management recommendations, but one of the things that she has techniques, or if they are being repeatedly excluded on a picked up—this was also picked up in our Green Paper short-term basis, schools should, as a matter of course, and by the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) do some kind of multi-agency assessment, which could in his review a few months ago—was whether we could be done through the common assessment framework. make better use of the two-and-a-half-year-old check They should use their local multi-agency assessment and link it with the early years foundation stage, so that process as a system for questioning why a child’s behaviour we pick up need at an early age. That is particularly is out of control. I hope that will reduce the number of important for speech and language issues. Dame Clare children who end up being excluded. More importantly, has recommended that the new foundation building we need to ensure that we put in place the right kind of blocks of the EYFS be focused particularly on support for a child, whether it is helping with a situation communication needs, personal, emotional and social in their family, or with a mental health problem. development, and physical development. I hope that the I thought that I would have loads of time to cover all suggestion will help improve the system for professionals the points, but that is clearly not the case. There is a working in early years. long consultation period now of four months, and a long period of implementation. I am grateful to hon. Robert Halfon: I realise that there is very little time Members for their points and I will ensure that they are left. Will the Minister comment on my remarks about fed into our formal consultation process. I encourage the blue badge issue? hon. Members to engage with their local parents’ forums and groups to ensure that, when we respond to the Sarah Teather: I was concerned to hear the hon. consultation, we really take into account what families Gentleman’s point about the particular difficulties that and children want. It is important that we get this right families with autism face. Families with a disabled child because the care of those children really matters. 97WH 30 MARCH 2011 Squatting 98WH

Squatting council-owned properties in Brighton and Hove, which has cost local people more than £30,000 in legal bills alone. The repair bill for one particular property was 11 am £40,000, which again had to be picked up by the residents Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con): It is a pleasure to of Brighton and Hove. Squatters are damaging buildings serve under your chairmanship today, Mr Brady. that are in the process of refurbishment, which only I will start this debate with a quote: exacerbates the housing shortage. “This place isn’t nice enough for me. I want somewhere posher, In my experience, squatters do not fit the profile of with a swimming pool if possible.” the kind of vulnerable people that we should be looking Those are not the words of someone complaining about out for. I am generalising of course, but for the purpose the gym facilities at the House of Commons. They are of this discussion I want to make the point that serial the words of one of London’s most prolific squatters squatters know the law. They submit freedom of about his latest free home in Hampstead, as reported in information requests to councils to find out where there the Evening Standard last week. We are all covering his are empty buildings; they are “web-savvy” and highly council tax contributions, his electricity bills and his gas resourceful; they run rings around the law, and what bills, and we are all paying for the police to investigate these professional squatters lack in respect for other each time a new break-in is reported. people’s property they make up for in guile and tenacity. They are organised and frequently menacing. As my hon. Friend the Minister stated in a recent letter to me, squatting is Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): Is “the unauthorised occupation of property belonging to another my hon. Friend aware of the Shelter website, which I person and amounts to trespass on land”. was quite horrified to read? As he knows, my constituency Some forms of trespass are criminal, such as those that has a persistent problem of squatters. But Shelter has a take place on licensed aerodromes and railways, but I guide to squatting, about how to keep on the right side am focusing today on all the other forms of squatting. of the law, on its website. Does he agree that it is They relate to offices, flats and houses; to empty and reprehensible to encourage people in this illegal activity? occupied buildings, and to private and public property. These forms of squatting are unlawful but not criminal. Mike Weatherley: I thank my hon. Friend for that Squatting is a huge problem in Hove and Portslade intervention and I very much agree with him. I will go and I have been campaigning on the issue since I was on to make some specific points about “The Squatters elected to Parliament. I am delighted that my hon. Handbook” shortly. Friend the Minister and our right hon. Friend the I said that squatters know the law well but the absolute Minister for Housing and Local Government have made opposite is true when it comes to the public in general, joint announcements on the issue. I am also grateful to who would be shocked if they knew just how powerless the organisations, such as Landlord Action, that have they are to take on squatters. Many members of the helped me to raise awareness of this issue around the public do not find that out until it is too late. Section 6 country. of the Criminal Law Act 1977 makes it an offence to use The Ministers’ announcements will be widely welcomed violence, or threats of violence, to gain access to premises by those who have been adversely affected by squatters. when I will make the case today that time is of the essence. “there is someone present on those premises…who is opposed to The problem is getting worse, not better. However, there the entry”. are two sides to this story and getting to the crux of the That section is what is usually referred to as squatters’ matter is not just about cracking down on trespassers rights, but I do not believe that it exists to assist squatting. themselves. It is in place to prevent unscrupulous landlords from I wish to dispel the myth, once and for all, that using violence or intimidation to evict legitimate tenants. squatters and homeless people are one and the same. Squatters, therefore, have such rights only by accident. My constituency has both wealth and deprivation. It is A local resident asked me a question in my local a Mecca for every character imaginable, which makes it paper, The Argus: such a wonderfully diverse place to live in. Homelessness “If squatting is a practice that is socially unacceptable, how is is an issue locally, but we have a fantastic support leaving a property empty for more than a year any more acceptable?” network of local charities, including Emmaus, Brighton My answer is simple—it is not acceptable at all. I have Housing Trust, Off The Fence and the YMCA, which contacted my local council on a number of occasions look after a great number of vulnerable people. It is our about the issue of empty buildings belonging to exploitative duty to look after such people and I fully support the developers. We should be careful, though, not to embrace excellent work being carried out in this area. squatting on the principle that “our enemy’s enemy is a Tackling homelessness is also a high priority for friend”. We must get tough on bad landlords—and Brighton and Hove city council. The council is working soon—but buildings can be temporarily empty for all hard to reduce the number of empty properties in the sorts of reasons and many of those reasons are entirely city and last year alone 168 long-term empty properties acceptable. were brought back into use. In 1997, 200 council-owned properties were long-term empty but that figure is now Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): One reason down to just 28. why a house remains empty is the death of the occupier. However, putting considerable resources into removing Such a house can very often lie dormant for months, squatters and paying for the damage that they inevitably sometimes years, while the family and the executors sort cause places a strain on council services. In the past out probate, and it can be very worrying and distressing 18 months, there have been 10 instances of squatting in if squatters move in during that time. 99WH Squatting30 MARCH 2011 Squatting 100WH

Mike Weatherley: My hon. Friend makes an excellent property with squatters. Squatters themselves will not point. Squatting can be very distressing for those who need to read it. As my hon. Friend the Member for are affected by it. Finchley and Golders Green (Mike Freer) mentioned Let us take the case of 40 Wilbury Villas in Hove. As earlier, they have their own guide, “The Squatters I have said, Brighton and Hove city council is carrying Handbook”. Like the notice on the door at 40 Wilbury out a huge refurbishment project on a number of properties. Villas, that handbook is sadly very selective, both when Those properties are public assets, which should be in it comes to rights in the law and in its morality. use and let to those who have been deemed to be most in As I alluded to earlier, I have little sympathy for need of them. No. 40 Wilbury Villas is one such property landlords who use loopholes in the planning system to and work on it was planned. However, when a particularly run down buildings or for landlords who simply do not vigilant neighbour spotted the locks being changed, he care that their properties are in a poor state. Compared knew that something was up. Straight away, a notice to other countries, however, the UK has very few empty appeared on the door listing the rights of squatters. It buildings. In Spain and Italy, more than 20% of the was downhill from then on, as an endless stream of sorts of properties that we are discussing today were professional squatters turned up for their share of the empty in 2009; in Germany, the figure was 8.2% and in spoils. France 6.1%. The current UK figure is between 3% and It is interesting that the notice on the door was 4%. Among comparable countries, only the Netherlands selective about the laws that it mentioned. Many of the and Sweden had lower figures, at 2.2% and 1.7% respectively. crimes that go hand in hand with squatting were We can do better, of course, but the problem is not one conveniently left off that notice. There was nothing on of empty buildings. Business rates, council tax enforcement the subject of breaking and entering; nothing on breach and compulsory purchase are all deterrents to leaving of the peace; nothing on the misuse of drugs; nothing properties empty, but there is some scope for improving on criminal damage; nothing on antisocial behaviour; the system. nothing on non-payment of council tax; nothing on My recent early-day motion 1545 calling for squatting arson; nothing on robbery; nothing on unauthorised to be criminalised has attracted cross-party support. works to listed buildings; nothing on using utilities Members of the public are getting tired of hearing that without contacting the suppliers, and there was certainly squatters are getting so much for free when they themselves nothing on fly-tipping. are struggling to get by. They are also fed up with the I have discussed the issue of squatting with Sussex antisocial behaviour of, and general mess caused by, police, and its powers are limited. There are not always squatters. High-profile campaigns run by The Daily witnesses in cases of squatting, so arrest is often difficult. Telegraph and the Evening Standard are certainly helping Protected intended occupiers and displaced residential to highlight what is really going on. occupiers have some protection, but not enough. The extent of the problem was highlighted in a Incidentally, members of the same group of squatters parliamentary question that I recently asked to determine that took over 40 Wilbury Villas then took over another which Departments had been affected by squatting. A property nearby, Park House. Once again, a historic number of Departments have fallen foul of squatters, building was damaged and as a result refurbishment of including the Ministry of Justice, one of whose buildings the property will now be more expensive. was occupied by squatters twice in one year, with interim possession orders being sought to remove the squatters Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Is there any way on each occasion. If the Ministry of Justice has problems, that the local authority could cut off the services to a what chance have the rest of us got? property occupied by squatters and not reinstate those Fortunately, we do not need to look far for a solution. services? I understand that, such is their knowledge of In Scotland, this form of trespass is already a criminal the law, squatters are able to phone up and have the offence. I am aware that the Government have the services reconnected. Is there not a position within the matter under review, but I am concerned that the proposals law whereby the services can be cut off right away will not go far enough. I welcome the announcement because a payment has to be made? that squatting is likely to be criminalised, but the devil will be in the detail. Properties can be destroyed very Mike Weatherley: The hon. Gentleman makes a good quickly, and it should be possible to remove squatters point. However, I believe that local authorities cannot instantly, as any delay results in further damage and cut off services. If the squatters contact the electricity destruction. There should be tough penalties and a suppliers legally and use the electricity legally, the police criminal record. are powerless to go and arrest them. There might be I will end, as I began, with a worrying quote from our some other points about non-payment that could lead friend in Hampstead who wants a free swimming pool: to services being disconnected, but I do not believe that “Law changes will never stop us. The Government can say all services can be disconnected on other grounds. However, they want but squatting will still go on…There is nothing they I will be interested to hear what the Minister has to say can do.” on that point. I hope that he is wrong. Mr Brady, please forgive me when I say that I was sceptical when I read that my hon. Friend the Minister 11.11 am and my right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Local Government had jointly released the guide, “Advice The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice on dealing with squatters in your home”. The guide is (Mr Crispin Blunt): I congratulate my hon. Friend the actually very good and to the point, and I recommend it Member for Hove (Mike Weatherley) on securing this to anybody who owns a property that has been invaded debate on a very serious issue. Like him, I have become by squatters, or to anybody who is a neighbour of a increasingly concerned about the distress and misery 101WH Squatting30 MARCH 2011 Squatting 102WH that squatters can cause to commercial property owners Jim Shannon: Is there a role for the UK Border and home owners alike. In his excellent contribution, he Agency here, alongside the police? I am not saying that identified the costs not only to individuals but to wider this is always the case, but I am aware that in some cases society, including the costs associated with enforcement squatters might be in the country illegally. by the police, and with all the public agencies that have to clean up after squatting incidents, either through the Mr Blunt: I certainly hope that if there were any legal process or literally, when properties have been reliable evidence that the people involved were in the invaded. There should, therefore, be no doubt about the country illegally, the UKBA would be engaged in initiating seriousness with which the issue is taken and the appropriate proceedings to remove them from the United perniciousness of the crime. Kingdom. I had not considered that angle in preparing my remarks for the debate, but the obvious answer is I am extremely grateful for my hon. Friend’s compliments yes, one would expect the appropriate authorities—in about the guidance issued by the Minister for Housing this case the UKBA—to be properly engaged in exercising and Local Government and me. My hon. Friend came their responsibilities, in the same way as they would be to it with a proper degree of scepticism about whether it in any other circumstance. would be of any use. I am extremely grateful that, We will want to examine the existing squatting laws having examined it, he has referred to its utility. That is to see whether they can be appropriately strengthened only the first stage of the process, so let me take because, having listened to my hon. Friend the Member Members through the further action that we are for Hove, the issues that were raised at Justice questions contemplating. yesterday, and the conduct of the whole public debate, it is pretty clear to me where the public are on this issue My hon. Friend has not been alone in raising the and I am confident that measures to strengthen the law matter, both directly with me in questions and publicly, would have significant support. with this debate. He is joined by our hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) Mike Weatherley: Is the Minister considering full who came to see me before Christmas to discuss the criminalisation of squatting as part of those measures? damage that squatters caused to commercial buildings In my constituency and elsewhere, there are serial squatters supervised by one of her constituents. The extent of the who just move from one property to another when they damage and the cost to her constituents are appalling. are evicted. In one instance in my constituency, they She was accompanied by Steve Cross, head of security kicked a hole in the wall and moved next door. The for a development company, who made it clear that police are powerless to have any damages or continuing squatters were costing his company many thousands of action taken out against the squatters. Without the pounds because of the direct damage to the buildings, criminal process, they are just moved on and then do it the problems caused to neighbours with loud parties, again. litter and rubbish, and the amount of time it takes to sort things out—sometimes six to 12 weeks for a court Mr Blunt: That is, of course, one of the things that we order to be granted and then finally enforced. We all are considering, and it has been pointed out that in know that the legal process is tricky, particularly for Scotland squatting is a criminal offence. That offence, someone coming to it for the first time, and it is almost however, is extremely widely drawn and for that reason inevitably expensive, with court costs to be borne as the tariff of punishment is extremely low. It is at the well. very bottom of the scale—a level 1 offence—with a fine not exceeding £200. Since Christmas, we have seen a succession of newspaper reports about squatters occupying high-value residential Mike Freer: Perhaps I could help the Minister on that properties in London, and there have been reports on point. I understand that squatting is a criminal offence the consequences of squatting in local papers all around under the Trespass (Scotland) Act 1865, which states the country, including, as my hon. Friend the Member that the maximum penalty is a fine or 21 days’ for Hove has said, in his constituency. The situation is imprisonment. That is a slightly firmer penalty than in not confined to the capital, and I suspect that the the information the Minister has, and I urge the picture is similar in other large towns, but we do not Government to adopt it. have a precise idea of how many squatters there are Mr Blunt: That might have been the position in 1865, nationwide. We do know, however, that 360 applications but I am afraid that the Criminal Justice Act 1982 for interim possession orders were made in the civil restricted punishment to a fine not exceeding level 1, courts last year. An interim possession order is an which is currently £200. accelerated process, specifically designed for evicting squatters. It provides an indicator of how many households Mike Weatherley: It is important to establish that are blighted by squatting each year, but that figure is penalties in Scotland are too lenient. The fine is indeed probably only the tip of the iceberg. £200 for an offence. The penalty for non-payment of that fine is 21 days. It is because we are aware of the misery that squatters can cause that we intend to strengthen the law, and Mr Blunt: I am grateful for that clarification. consider how to strengthen its enforcement. I hope that Squatting is almost inevitably accompanied by a series my hon. Friend will bear with me, however, because we of criminal offences, such as criminal damage or breaking are yet to complete the cross-departmental process of into the property in the first place. The improper use of analysing our own Ministry of Justice internal suggestions utilities was discussed. Using someone else’s electricity before publishing a formal consultation. We are going is theft, subject to a maximum sentence of seven years. through the internal agreement processes. Nevertheless, The unlawful abstraction of electricity is also a criminal I would like to leave him with a clear steer on our offence, with a maximum sentence of five years. There approach. are numerous avenues. 103WH Squatting30 MARCH 2011 Squatting 104WH

[Mr Blunt] Each option that I have described could have an impact on the criminal justice system. For example, the To lay out the picture in the time that I have left, the police and the Crown Prosecution Service might incur main criminal law provisions on squatting are set out in additional costs if asked to enforce new offences. The sections 6 and 7 of the Criminal Law Act 1977. I will criminal courts might have to process a greater number deal with section 6 first, as it has given rise to the of cases, although the impact might be partially offset popular notion of squatters’ rights. Section 6 of the by a reduction in civil claims. Depending on the penalty 1977 Act states that it is an offence for a person to use imposed for any new offence, there might also be an violence to enter a property where someone inside is impact on the prison population. In the current economic opposed to their entry. The offence was designed to climate, we must ensure that such impacts are carefully stop unscrupulous landlords from using violence to assessed and shown to be affordable. As I have said, a evict legitimate tenants, but its existence has led some consultation would assist us in that process. We should be squatters to display so-called section 6 notices on the in a position to announce our plans in more detail soon. door of properties notifying the property owner that it Regardless of whatever changes we make to the law would be an offence for him to break back in. in future, we must work closely with enforcement authorities The offence does not apply to displaced residential to ensure that existing offences are enforced as effectively occupiers who break back into their own homes, but it as possible. In addition to the offences under the 1977 Act prevents commercial property owners from breaking that I mentioned, the police can arrest squatters for back into their commercial premises when someone offences such as criminal damage, burglary, theft or the inside objects. One option that we have been considering, unauthorised use of utilities if there is sufficient evidence therefore, is whether section 6 could be amended to give of guilt. The offences all bear a maximum sentence of non-residential property owners the same rights as displaced imprisonment. The offence of criminal damage has a residential occupiers to break back into their property. maximum sentence of three months in less serious We think that that would effectively render section 6 cases, rising to 10 years in the most serious cases. notices meaningless. After my discussions with my hon. Burglary carries a maximum sentence of 14 years for Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford, I am dwellings and 10 years for other properties. For theft, strongly attracted to that option. the maximum sentence is seven years, and for the offence of abstracting electricity, the maximum sentence is five Section 7 of the Act includes an offence that is years’ imprisonment. committed where a squatter refuses to leave a home There is another offence that applies to squatters. It is when required to do so by a displaced residential occupier an offence for a squatter to fail to leave a property or a protected intending occupier of the property. Under within 24 hours of being served with an interim possession the current law, the squatter has a defence if they can order and to return to the property as a trespasser prove either that they did not believe that the person within one year of the order. Interim possession orders requiring them to leave was or was acting on behalf of a were introduced in 1995 to make the process of gaining displaced residential occupier or a protected intending possession of one’s property easier and quicker. They occupier, or that the premises were not used mainly for are civil orders, but as I said, they are backed up by a residential purposes and that they were not on any part criminal sanction with a maximum penalty of six months’ of the premises used wholly or mainly for residential imprisonment. My officials are in discussions with the purposes. police to ascertain whether there are specific difficulties Another option that we are considering is whether in enforcing those offences and how any potential barriers that offence could be strengthened to protect other might be overcome. types of property owner, so that owners of non-residential We must also ensure that property owners have the property would have the same protection as displaced information that they need to get squatters out of their residential occupiers. At present it is an offence, for properties as quickly and painlessly as possible. That is example, for a squatter to refuse to leave somebody’s why we have published new guidance on the Directgov home, but it is not an offence for them to refuse to leave website outlining the circumstances in which squatters a person’s place of work. I appreciate that the actions of should be reported to the police. As my hon. Friend will squatters may cause serious financial hardship in either have seen, the guidance also includes advice on how to scenario and am considering whether the law should apply for a possession order in the civil courts, a process apply equally to both. that is alien to many people until they are confronted by the appalling situation of finding their property improperly We are examining internally the potential consequences occupied by squatters. of the available options to ensure that they do not I thank my hon. Friend for bringing this issue to our overlap with other areas, such as landlord and tenant attention. This debate is only the latest emanation of matters. The public consultation will give us another concern about it. I have written to many hon. Members opportunity to ensure that our proposals work as we from all parties who have raised it with me in would all wish. The necessity of ensuring that we get it correspondence, a series of oral and written parliamentary right and of engaging in a proper consultation process questions have been asked and hon. Members have means that we will not be able to move as swiftly as I sought meetings with me about it, so I am grateful for suspect my hon. Friend the Member for Hove would the opportunity to respond to the debate and to make it like. We must also identify the appropriate legislative clear that the Justice Secretary and I are determined to vehicle if legislation is required. No doubt we will hope tackle the issue and to bring relief to the victims of this for right hon. and hon. Friends’ assistance in getting particularly distressing and pernicious crime. any required legislative changes on to the statute book as soon as is practicable, but that is all for the future and 11.28 am depends on our conclusions. Sitting suspended. 105WH 30 MARCH 2011 NHS (Public Satisfaction) 106WH

NHS (Public Satisfaction) the 2008, 2009 and 2010 surveys, to which he refers. It may be of interest to him to know that the 2010 report was published following a written answer by the Minister [HUGH BAYLEY in the Chair] of State, Department of Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) in 2.30 pm December 2010, and placed in the Library. John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): I would like to thank the Speaker’s Office for selecting the John Cryer: If the Minister will calm down a bit, I subject of public satisfaction with the NHS for debate. I will come to that. After the Secretary of State appeared will focus on three pieces of research, and on the before the Health Committee, it emerged that data until Government’s attempts to prevent information getting 2010 had been placed in the Library, and the results into the public domain, to prevent scrutiny of policy until December 2009 are on the Ipsos MORI website. I and to cut funding for future sources of information, all was granted this debate on 24 March and the data were while failing to inform Parliament. The three surveys released following day, Friday 25 March, on the Department are “Public Perceptions of the NHS and Social Care” of Health website. Previously, the data had not been on by Ipsos MORI from March 2010, the general lifestyle the Department’s website. It might be a coincidence, but survey by the Office for National Statistics, and the it struck me that that was a fairly good time to bury British social attitudes survey by the National Centre good news: it was the day before 500,000 people tramped for Social Research. through central London on the TUC march in opposition The first survey, “Public Perceptions of the NHS and to the cuts. The fact that the data were not initially Social Care” by Ipsos MORI, has been carried out released is unsurprising, given that polling showed a every six months since 2000. It recently emerged that 72% satisfaction rating. Ipsos MORI concluded in the the latest results, from last year, were being withheld report: from the public domain. Ministers were accused of “This level of satisfaction has now been recorded for over a burying good news because the information clearly year…suggesting that there has been a…positive shift in the shows increasing levels of public satisfaction. On 22 March public’s perceptions of the NHS. Pride in the NHS also continues 2011, the Secretary of State was questioned about that to climb and is at its highest recorded level”. by the Select Committee on Health, and particularly by my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall South (Valerie Pride in the NHS is at its highest ever recorded level—an Vaz). The Secretary of State’s defence was that as interesting statistic. We might hear a comment from the previous surveys had not been released, he would not Minister about that. release the information from March 2010. The reality is that the previous data were only ever released following Mr Love: The report has some very good news about questions by the Opposition. From March 2007, the public attitudes to the NHS. Why would Government, then Opposition stopped asking for the information, who are in control of the NHS, not want to publish and we can only assume that that was because the level such a report? of public satisfaction was increasing, and it did not exactly serve their purpose to draw that information into the public domain. John Cryer: I will leave that to the Minister to answer, because I have not finished my comments about the Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): I want to suppression of statistics. emphasise what my hon. Friend says. I can recount a conversation I had with a local general practitioner, My story does not end with the original survey on who told me that in the 1980s, a constituent of mine in public perceptions of the NHS. The second of the three need of a hip replacement came to see him. He could surveys is the general lifestyle survey, carried out every not get her a place anywhere within the health service. year by the ONS on behalf of Government Departments, My constituency is deprived, and it was impossible for but that has had its funding withdrawn by the NHS her or her family to get treatment privately, so she had information centre, for reasons best known to the to suffer in silence. That would not happen nowadays. Government. However, Sir Michael Scholar, head of My GP, who represents my constituents, told me that the UK Statistics Authority, has warned that the decision that has not happened to him since the early 1990s. Is may break the Government’s rules on consultation. I that not the evidence we need to show that the health should point out that the general lifestyle survey provides service has improved significantly in recent years? statistics on public health and does not involve NHS satisfaction rates. It produces figures, information and John Cryer: I agree with my hon. Friend. I have had statistics for testing Government policy and holding exactly the same experience. We were both elected in Governments to account; it is important that the 1997, and when I became an MP, I regularly had people information be available for holding Ministers to account. come to see me with orthopaedic problems who had If the decision to withhold funding for the general been waiting for operations for two to two and a half lifestyle survey stands, the information will not be available years. Some of them were in serious pain and unable to to us in future. work. In the past few years, the complaints I have been hearing are that people have not had an operation for The Department of Health also intends to withdraw four or six months. It is a completely different world. funding for health and NHS satisfaction questions in the British social attitudes survey. The survey will be The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon familiar to many Members. It is carried out annually by Burns): May I put the hon. Gentleman out of his misery the NCSR, which is a pretty respected body, both before we start the debate on a false premise? He is nationally and internationally. The withdrawal of funding absolutely right: the previous Government did not publish was not announced to the House of Commons, but was 107WH NHS (Public Satisfaction)30 MARCH 2011 NHS (Public Satisfaction) 108WH

[John Cryer] and GP treatments, it does not serve the purposes of a Government who are committed to the wholesale leaked over the weekend to Health Policy Insight, which reorganisation of one of the most beloved institutions published an interesting editorial that condemned the of British society. I look forward to what the Minister decision to withdraw funding in fairly colourful language. has to say. The British social attitudes survey charts how NHS satisfaction started at 55% in 1983, which was the year Several hon. Members rose— the first survey was published. That plummeted to Hugh Bayley (in the Chair): Five Members wish to 35% by the time the Conservative Government left speak and we have about 50 minutes for debate; they office in 1997. The latest satisfaction rate is 64%, which, can do the calculations for themselves. according to John Appleby from the King’s Fund, is the highest level of satisfaction since the survey began in 1983, and part of a continuous upward trend since 2.43 pm 2002. He said: Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): The hon. Member for “The NHS must have been doing something right to earn this Leyton and Wanstead (John Cryer) makes his own extra satisfaction”. points in his own way. Both my parents started to work There is also an interesting quote from the director of for the NHS on the day it came into being: my father as the Nuffield Trust, Jennifer Dixon: a doctor and my mother as a nurse. Throughout the 60-plus years of its existence there has been enormous “I suspect that public satisfaction will decline because the pressurised financial climate will result in staff unrest, cuts, and pride in the NHS, among those who work in it and the spectre of rationing but also because of the relaxation of among the community as a whole. some of the process targets that the public hold dear, such as The interesting notion advanced by the Opposition is waiting times.” that because people are generally satisfied with their She continued: doctors, all is well with the NHS. Of course people are “To overload reform on top of that is the problem and to do overwhelmingly happy with their GPs. By and large, we both at the same time is very risky.” have freedom of choice over our GP, and if we are not I emphasise “very risky”. happy with services we change our GP. It is of concern that a recent survey of NHS users found that one in five The reason for killing off such research is fairly clear. failed to get a prompt GP appointment when they The aim is to obscure the results of Government policies asked for it, but that notwithstanding it is not surprising so that they cannot be exposed to the proper scrutiny that nine out of 10 patients are satisfied with their GP that we all want, and to prevent comparisons with the surgeries. That is not the point. The point is that we records of previous Governments—Labour and Tory. If have an ageing and more complex population who will the information is not available, the records of previous rightly make increasing demands on the NHS. Governments cannot be compared with the record of Unsurprisingly, most people have greatest contact with this Government. the NHS in the last years of their lives. There are a number of questions that I should like the Minister to answer. Will the “Public Perceptions of John Pugh (Southport) (LD): I do not want to put the the NHS and Social Care” survey by Ipsos MORI hon. Gentleman off his stride, but is he not slightly continue to be funded and to be reported on? If it is not missing the point made by the hon. Member for Leyton to be continued, will the research be replaced? The and Wanstead (John Cryer), which was not simply that research is very detailed and heavyweight. I can provide people are satisfied with the NHS but that they are it to the Minister, although I assume he already has it. I progressively more satisfied, which is a more surprising do not intend to imply that Ministers intend to cut finding, is it not? funding for that research, but because of other decisions, we start to wonder whether that might be the conclusion. Tony Baldry: I have not missed the point at all. The point being made by the hon. Member for Leyton and The Government have decided, apparently without Wanstead is that nine out of 10 people are satisfied with telling Parliament, to axe funding for two other crucial their GPs, so somehow all is well with the NHS and pieces of independent research: the British social attitudes nothing need change. If my hon. Friend the Member survey, which I mentioned, and the general lifestyle for Southport (John Pugh) had read the report of the survey, conducted by the ONS, which I also mentioned. Public Accounts Committee, chaired by the former Ministers have sneaked out the information that funding Labour Minister of State, the right hon. Member for is to be cut in a fairly underhand way. Many Labour Barking (Margaret Hodge), he would know that it Members suspect that it is being done so that we cannot concludes that although the previous Government increased draw comparisons with previous Governments. The the amount of money going into the NHS that did not information will not be available to allow us to say, lead to greater outputs. The report makes sobering “Government policies were working but funding has reading, and I am concerned that more parliamentary been cut, which is having an effect on public perceptions colleagues have not read it and that it has not received and services.” the attention in the House that it deserves. Public perception is crucial. My impression and that of piles of research is that public perceptions are improving John Cryer: The point effectively made by the hon. and are at an all-time high, but that does not satisfy Member for Southport (John Pugh) is that satisfaction Ministers, who are engaging in the biggest reorganisation rates are not remaining level but climbing markedly. of the NHS since Nye Bevan created it in 1947. If The British social attitudes survey shows that in 1983 information is in the public domain showing that the satisfaction stood at 55% and plummeted to 35% in public are very happy with the NHS, particularly acute 1997. It is now up to 64%. According to Ipsos MORI, 109WH NHS (Public Satisfaction)30 MARCH 2011 NHS (Public Satisfaction) 110WH

90% of outpatients, 88% of inpatients and 81% of In any health system, however, difficult decisions have accident and emergency patients are satisfied—the highest to be made about how one best utilises finite resources. levels ever recorded. However much money as a country we commit to the NHS, that money will be finite. Choices will have to be Tony Baldry: The hon. Gentleman, again, makes his made about how that money is best spent: at one end of own point in his own way. He says, and I understand the spectrum, about whether and in what circumstances him, that members of the public are satisfied with the people get treated for varicose veins; and at the other NHS so nothing need change. I am not sure whether he end of the spectrum about when, and how often, major has read the unanimous PAC report that was published and significant, complex and expensive invasive surgery only weeks ago, but I remind Members that it says: takes place. It seems to me that it makes extremely good “The level of hospital activity has not kept pace with the sense for those decisions to be made in a collegiate increased resources as hospitals focused on meeting national manner, on behalf of their patients, by GPs. It seems to targets, but not on improving productivity, and productivity has me to make very good sense to allow GPs, individually actually fallen over the last decade…Though the increased money and collegiately, to make value judgments about the going into the NHS has helped to reduce waiting times, improve quality of services being provided by individual hospital facilities, and deliver higher quality care, the Department promised providers for their patients. at the same time to improve productivity. It failed and, in future, the Department needs to have a more explicit focus on improving As the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead made hospital productivity if it is to deliver its ambitious savings targets clear when introducing this debate, patients trust their without healthcare services suffering.” GPs and I see no reason why we should not, collectively, trust GPs to commission the best available services in Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): Does the the NHS. Critics of the reforms have sought to present hon. Gentleman agree that it is notoriously difficult to them as something that they are not. However, as the measure productivity in crude terms—activity, outcomes Prime Minister has made clear on a number of occasions: and so on—and that the quality of the output, which “we have ruled out price competition in the NHS.” perhaps reflects the greater investment of resources, is He went gone on to make it clear that not included in the survey? “we must avoid cherry-picking by the private sector in the NHS.”— [Official Report, 16 March 2011; Vol. 525, c. 292.] Tony Baldry: I am sorry to hear the apologia of Opposition Members, who are confronted with concerns John Cryer: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? about what is happening in the NHS. I commend to the hon. Gentleman the National Audit Office report published Tony Baldry: I am happy to give way to the hon. on 17 December 2010, “Management of NHS hospital Gentleman, but I would just make the observation that productivity”. The NAO has no difficulty in measuring I suspect that quite a number of his colleagues wish to NHS productivity, and neither does the PAC. Before contribute to the debate, and that every time I allow an Opposition Members jump up, they should remember intervention it probably reduces the time that they have. that the Labour party left the NHS with a huge, unpaid overdraft of £60 billion. It is a staggering fact that of John Cryer: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman, the £65 billion of hospital building works carried out in both for giving way and for his valuable advice that I the 13 years of the Labour Government, only £5 billion will hold dear to my heart. was paid for. Despite a number of very generous private May I just point out that, although the exposure to finance initiative projects, the NHS still has an overdraft EU competition laws—he is referring indirectly to that—is and must pay for £60 billion of hospital building works. not in the Bill, primary care trusts are officially regarded The previous Government, while they may have put as state enterprises? As state enterprises, they are not more money into the NHS, saw no improvement in exposed to EU competition law. The new consortia that outcomes and have left the NHS with a substantial will replace them, because they are not state enterprises, overdraft. will be exposed to EU competition law, and will therefore As the Chair of the Health Committee, my right hon. expose the NHS, generally, to EU competition law. Friend the Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell), has Does he support that? observed, even if, as intended, the Government manage to ensure that spending on the NHS is ring-fenced and Tony Baldry: Again, that is a slightly bizarre argument runs ahead of inflation, the NHS, in the next few years, from the hon. Gentleman. There has been much talk has to become substantially more efficient in how it uses about competition in the NHS, which is surprising as its assets, and treats and looks after patients—hence the the Labour party appeared to be in favour of competition need for reforms. Let us be clear. The reforms are about in its own election manifesto. The coalition Government cutting bureaucracy and improving patient care and have made it clear that the only competition that will have been proposed by the coalition Government to exist in the NHS is competition on quality, not price. improve the NHS and to ensure that we maintain public The Secretary of State could not have made that clearer satisfaction and support for the NHS. We need to in the House when he said: ensure that the Health and Social Care Bill, which is “At the point when a patient exercises choice or a GP undertakes going through Parliament, delivers those reforms in the a referral, the price of providers will be the same. By extension, best possible way. competition must be on the basis of quality.”—[Official Report, I have no doubt that Ministers will give proper attention 16 March 2011; Vol. 525, c. 387.] to the report next week of the Health Committee and To deal with another misrepresentation, EU competition that, in due course, the Government will have regard to law already exists and the health reform proposals do any constructive suggestions from the other place to nothing to change that. They do not, in any way, extend ensure that the Bill is as clear and effective as possible. competition law. The Bill makes it absolutely clear that 111WH NHS (Public Satisfaction)30 MARCH 2011 NHS (Public Satisfaction) 112WH

[Tony Baldry] decided by doctors through a process informed by democratically accountable public and patient involvement. We need to be looking any competition can only be on quality, not on price. In for innovative ways of spending the health budget wisely.” any event, I find it strange that the Labour party and In a recent issue of Prospect magazine, Ali Parsa others suddenly seem to be coming forward to express pointed out that, as a nation: concerns about the private sector in the NHS, when it “We used to spend 3 per cent of our GDP on healthcare in the was the previous Labour Government who, for example, 1980s…6 per cent in the 1990s, 9 per cent now and on our way to in Banbury set up a privately run, privately managed, 12 per cent.” privately owned independent treatment centre and a In the current financial climate, that is unsustainable. privately managed, privately owned independent Darzi Business as usual is not an option. We need to review GP centre. The previous Labour Government, bizarrely, what treatments are provided to ensure they are clinically gave the private sector—because their contracting was effective and cost-effective—in other words, evidence-based so poor—some £250 million for operations that were practice. I think that Dr Judith Wright and Andrew never carried out. However, given that they have left the McHugh’s comments are extremely balanced and sensible. NHS with an overdraft of £60 billion, I suppose that they would consider £250 million thrown away on Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): I just came operations that were never actually carried out as, possibly from a meeting of the British Medical Association by their standards, small change. about two hours ago. Its members asked me very clearly to pass this message on to the party on the Government We have to realise, with an ageing population, more Benches: will they please stop using the fact that GPs extensive treatments and new drugs becoming available, are becoming involved to suggest that they support the that we have to tackle bureaucracy in the NHS. We need moves? They see becoming involved in terms of having to reform the NHS to make sure that it is as efficient no alternative—they say that it is being forced on them and as effective as possible. We are ensuring that patients and that they are becoming engaged in the interests of have choice—choice based on quality and from whom their patients, not because they believe in what is being they receive care. There is simply no issue on this, in that done. the Labour Party said in its manifesto at the general election, and I am sure that the hon. Member for Tony Baldry: May I suggest to the hon. Gentleman Leyton and Wanstead has read it: and to others that they actually start listening to what is “Patients requiring elective care will have the right, in law, to being said? They might start by noting what was said in choose from any provider who meets NHS standards of quality”. their own election manifesto. They might start listening to what the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State We have made it absolutely clear, under the coalition are saying on the Floor of the House of Commons, and Government, that the NHS will remain free at the point the hon. Gentleman might as well do the courtesy of of need, paid for from general taxation, and be based just listening to what GPs in my constituency are saying entirely on need, not on the ability to pay. Those are on the record. It is clear that he is not listening. If he fundamental principles of the NHS. They have been wishes to have a dialogue of the unlistening, that is a fundamental principles of the NHS ever since it came matter for him. The changes that the NHS needs are into being, and the coalition parties are, I am sure, straightforward: less waste, more involvement, power to determined not to undermine, in any way, any of the GPs and front-line doctors, nurses and other health rights in the NHS constitution. Indeed, the coalition professionals, and putting patients first. There is not Government are seeking to protect the NHS, throughout really an intellectual divide on this matter. Indeed, the the duration of the Parliament, by increasing NHS shadow Secretary of State earlier observed: funding by £10.7 billion. A substantial number of GP groups, all over England, have volunteered as pathfinders “The general aims of reform are sound—greater role for clinicians in commissioning care, more involvement of patients, to demonstrate how GP commissioning can work. GPs less bureaucracy and greater priority on improving health outcomes”. throughout Oxfordshire are coming together to form a I could not have put it better. As for less bureaucracy, suitable GP consortium. ever since the coalition Government came to office, one Let me tell the House what is being said by those in of the things they have cut in the NHS is bureaucracy. my constituency who are involved in the GP consortium. That has resulted in 2,000 fewer managers since the Local GP Dr Judith Wright, who is co-ordinating the general election, but, interestingly, 2,500 more doctors. north Oxfordshire GPs, has said: I have every confidence in the Secretary of State for “Andrew Lansley’s proposals will give power to local GPs to Health. He and his ministerial team, while we were in decide how that budget should be spent to meet local health opposition, took considerable efforts to visit Banbury needs. Priorities will be decided by doctors through a process on a number of occasions to understand the challenges informed by patients, local authorities, public health and secondary being faced by the Horton general hospital and to meet care”. with GPs. As he observed to local GPs before the Dr Wright went on to observe: general election, GP commissioning will enable those “I believe that GPs are best placed to be able to meet this GPs in north Oxfordshire, south Northamptonshire challenge. Collectively they know the health needs of their local and south Warwickshire who wish to send their patients population. They can act as a catalyst for change. They will have a to the Horton hospital to do so, confident that the role in deciding the destination of local services and the route to money will follow the patient. get there.” Again, I do not think it surprising that the shadow Andrew McHugh, who is the practice manager at Horsefair Secretary of State should have observed: surgery in Banbury, observed: “No one in the House of Commons knows more about the “The health budget is a finite resource. Andrew Lansley’s NHS than Andrew Lansley—except perhaps Stephen Dorrell. proposals will give power to local GPs to decide how that budget But Andrew Lansley spent six years in Opposition as shadow is spent in order to meet local health needs. Priorities will be health secretary. No one has visited more of the NHS. No one has 113WH NHS (Public Satisfaction)30 MARCH 2011 NHS (Public Satisfaction) 114WH talked to more people...in the NHS…these plans are consistent, The learning disability group has been helped coherent and comprehensive. I would expect nothing less from considerably by Mencap. Today, I shall rely on its Andrew Lansley.” research and the many conclusions that it has reached. If Opposition Members are not willing to listen to me, It published “Death by indifference” in 2007. Indeed, I perhaps they would be willing to listen to the shadow had a debate in this Hall when the Labour Government Secretary of State. were in power, so I hope that I will not be regarded as The Secretary of State, when in opposition, visited party political. my constituency at least three times, and I believe I am The report highlighted the tragic consequences of correct in saying that every member of the Government deep-rooted institutional discrimination in the NHS ministerial team in the Commons visited my constituency against people with a learning disability. In many cases, at least once, to understand the challenges and needs of NHS staff did not know about the specific needs of hospitals such as the Horton. The Royal College of people with a learning disability and did not take the General Practitioners said that it believes that there time to understand and meet those needs. People with a should be more clinical commissioning. Even the British learning disability are some of the most vulnerable Medical Association has confirmed that it believes that members of society and have some of the most profound GP-led commissioning is the right way forward. Indeed, health care needs. Although the Government investigated the only opponents to the proposals appear to be the the issue in the independent inquiry led by Sir Jonathan Labour party and the trade unions, but, given what the Michael, in a poll conducted on behalf of Mencap, Labour party did when it was in office, and what it almost one half of doctors, or 47%, and one third of stated in its manifesto and even more recently, one can nurses, or 37%, said that people with a learning disability only conclude that, now that it is in opposition, it seeks received a poorer standard of health care than the rest to jump on every passing bandwagon, feels obliged to of the population. In the same poll, 39% of doctors and say whatever will keep the trade unions happy and seeks 34% of nurses went as far as saying that people with a to block every sensible reform. learning disability were discriminated against in the NHS. The views of the trade unions on all of this are as depressing as they are, perhaps, predictable, and in the I want to deal with the NHS complaints system. The category of trade union I also place the BMA. It is right unnecessary deaths—sadly, that has been the case—of to recall that the BMA opposed GP fundholding, longer people with a learning disability do nothing to increase opening hours for GP surgeries, which clearly would public confidence in the ability of the NHS to give have been for the benefit of patients, and foundation effective care to those vulnerable members of society hospitals. In fact, I cannot think of a single NHS who are most in need of it. However, that is compounded reform over the years which it has not opposed, or a by the malfunctioning NHS complaints system which, single one on which it has been in the vanguard. as a result of being time-consuming, defensive and too heavily weighted in favour of health professionals, refuses No one pretends that health care systems around the to learn from previous mistakes in order to drive up world are facing anything other than enormous challenges. standards and increase public confidence. That is no less so in the UK. We need to be sure that patients and taxpayers get the best value possible for Following its “Death by indifference” report, Mencap every pound spent in the NHS. We need the best possible has helped a number of families through the complaints outcomes in the NHS, whether for stroke victims, heart system. It is revealing that not a single family has ever attack victims or those who have long-term medical said they felt that justice had been achieved through the conditions. The reforms are about building on the strengths local complaints procedure. That is due to the overwhelming of the NHS, improving it and making it better able to desire of NHS trusts to stand up for their staff, the tackle the challenges of the 21st century. That is how we potential conflicts of interest when NHS staff investigate will ensure that people will rightly continue to be supportive complaints made about people working in the same of, and satisfied and happy with, the NHS, which we all trust, and a fundamental lack of understanding about want to be the best possible health service in the world. what learning disability is. The same issues are evident when the complaints are escalated to the parliamentary and health service 3.3 pm ombudsman. NHS trusts have disproportionate access to support, in comparison with the families going through Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) the complaints process. In addition, the time scales (Lab): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for given for complaints to be dealt with are usually longer Leyton and Wanstead (John Cryer) on introducing a than expected and only succeed in drawing out a family’s debate on such an important subject, and on the balanced grief. way in which he opened it. I should declare that I am I would like to conclude with a few comments on this the co-chair with Lord Rix of the all-party group on theme. In light of tragic cases of misunderstanding in learning disability. It is on that subject that I wish to administering health care to vulnerable people, public speak in the five or six minutes that I hope to take. confidence in the NHS understandably has been I would like to make it clear that although I shall undermined. The defensive nature of the NHS complaints make several criticisms of aspects of the national health system, however, means that the NHS does not learn service, I stand second to no one in my regard for it or, valuable lessons which could help prevent unnecessary as a GMB member, in my respect for those who work deaths from occurring in the future. Public and patient for the NHS, including the trade unions. They are confidence in the NHS will be improved only with helping to create their big society—a meaningful society— greater accountability and transparency so that people and making the NHS something of which we are all can see that efforts are being made to drive up standards. very proud. The complaints process is central to that and therefore 115WH NHS (Public Satisfaction)30 MARCH 2011 NHS (Public Satisfaction) 116WH

[Mr Tom Clarke] The debate so far, however, has been not so much about whether people are satisfied, which we can all requires a fundamental overhaul to make it a more take as read, as about whether they should be satisfied. impartial and reflective system. That is necessary to Clearly, that depends not on whether they are satisfied drive up health outcomes across the NHS and to increase with the NHS, but on whether the NHS actually does public confidence in it. its job, which is to make people more healthy, not more satisfied. To give an example, people often feel very satisfied and contented with small maternity units, but 3.9 pm such units sometimes have higher infant mortality rates, and outcomes are actually less satisfactory. John Pugh (Southport) (LD): Putting aside his conspiracy theory, I congratulate the hon. Member for Leyton and Patient-reported outcome measures—PROMs— Wanstead (John Cryer) on initiating this important and sometimes show a different picture from clinical outcomes. timely event. I say that it is timely, but it is not timely for We have mentioned independent treatment centres, and the poor Minister, who was unwell yesterday, and who a lot of evidence seems to show that people are very does not look too good today. I understand that his satisfied with them, although the satisfaction is more to colleague, the Minister of State, Department of Health, do with the catering and reception arrangements than the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), with the clinical outcomes. is now also smitten, so the casualties from the Committee The moot question, therefore, is whether patients considering the Health and Social Care Bill are on the have reasonable grounds for dissatisfaction or satisfaction increase. with NHS, whether or not they actually express any—always bearing it in mind that what the public are reluctant to There may be good reasons for substantial change in fund, they should not complain about. However, the the NHS, and one of those that has been given is not real question, given the funding that the public have set that the public are not satisfied with the NHS, but that aside for the NHS, is whether the NHS has delivered the they should not be satisfied with it. It must be conceded, outcomes that people could rationally expect. of course, that the case for radical change is lessened a little if the public are increasingly satisfied with what When pressed on the issue, senior Government politicians, goes on. The hon. Gentleman has drawn attention to, up to and including the Prime Minister, talk about three and put beyond all doubt, the fact that the public are issues: cancer and heart disease outcomes, bureaucracy satisfied with the NHS, and we should have that important and unimpressive productivity, which are presented as truth out in the open. Whatever we do in policy, it is legitimate gripes. It is sometimes tempting to believe important that we are evidence-led, and a wanton disregard that politicians need to find faults in public services for evidence when making policy is wicked and morally because they like reforming them, and I am sometimes irresponsible. inclined to think that we should redefine public services as anything a politician wants to reform. However, If we ignore the conspiracy theory aspects of the there is a need to find out whether there are any real hon. Gentleman’s contribution, it is clear that he has grounds for dissatisfaction with the service we currently done the House a service by drawing attention to the have. Unless we can find genuine grounds for people to truth that the public are broadly satisfied with the NHS. be dissatisfied, whether or not they are, we should not We cannot be as confident, however, about the explanations have overly radical disturbance or upheaval in the system. for that. It is most unlikely that public satisfaction is unconnected with things such as decreased waiting lists Can we make a case for public dissatisfaction? Let me and increased investment. It is also most unlikely that it briefly take the three issues I mentioned in turn. We is unconnected with the dedication and skill of NHS certainly should not bang on about the cardiovascular staff, which remain no matter what politicians decide in field. I had the unnerving experience the other day of this place. listening to the Prime Minister at Prime Minister’s questions tell the House how poor our outcomes were However, satisfaction can be linked to other things, when set against those of comparable countries. Later, I such as sentiment. Some years ago, research into the attended an event organised by the British Heart NHS produced some rather puzzling outcomes. If people Foundation to celebrate world-beating progress. That in general were asked about the NHS, they had a fairly was a very puzzling experience. The King’s Fund has negative view, but if they were asked about their personal adequately exposed the myth about heart disease outcomes, treatment at the hands of the NHS, they were thoroughly and no one in the Department of Health should embarrass satisfied. That was explained by the way in which the the Prime Minister any longer with briefings that disappoint media portrayed the NHS and the way in which stories and depress those who are better informed on this issue. about the NHS appeared in the media. Last week, the Prime Minister notably stuck to the Another interesting bit of data, which the hon. safer ground of cancer outcomes. To be fair, despite Gentleman did not allude to, indicates that we are sharp falls in mortality among males and excellent talking not just about a switch in what the media, and progress on breast cancer treatment, we do not seem to therefore the public, are saying. Reports about the NHS excel our peers, and there is clearly work to be done. by NHS workers themselves have been increasingly When looking at the issue, however, we should not use positive. Worryingly, there was a stage when a lot of just the old research done by Professor Coleman 10 years them would give a rather bad account of what was ago, because the data on the issue is quite weak. If there going on in the NHS when they were asked about it. are poor outcomes on cancer, however, it is not obvious Recently, the data have shown quite conclusively that why it therefore follows that structural and organisational people working in the NHS speak more positively upheaval is the solution, particularly as the prime cause about it. Such people are more immune to changes in of poor cancer outcomes, as far as I can tell, is late media tone. referral by GPs, and the prime solution is a more 117WH NHS (Public Satisfaction)30 MARCH 2011 NHS (Public Satisfaction) 118WH integrated service and strong regional clinical networks. 3.20 pm It is a fact that we spend less on the treatment of cancer than the countries we compare ourselves with. Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Leyton and Wanstead Turning to the other flaws, there are legitimate objects (John Cryer) on getting this debate. Like the hon. for criticism from time to time. On bureaucracy, I Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry), I stand here as the assume that everybody here understands that the son of a nurse, though she stopped work before the administrative costs of running the NHS compare very NHS was created. Through her lifetime she saw the favourably with those of running health systems in improvements in the NHS. I also stand as a man whose other parts of the world; that is not a debateable point. niece is fighting for her life in intensive care in the Royal Even if those costs are higher than we would wish, they Victoria Infirmary, Newcastle. She is a young girl of certainly compare favourably. 40 years old. I call her a girl because from the day she It is quite true, as the hon. Member for Banbury was born she has been hit by muscular dystrophy. She (Tony Baldry) and the Public Accounts Committee has needed the NHS from the first minute of her life. It have said, that productivity has not increased linearly or has been there for every moment, as it was for one of proportionally with investment, but that is true of business my sisters, who sadly died at 53 of the same disease. The sectors, too. That is a common phenomenon; every NHS was always there for them, never perfect, but extra pound does not give us the same amount in second to none when compared with health services increased productivity. The wonder is that people expect around the world. Those of us fortunate to have better life to be that simple. If that is a real problem, however, health have always been prepared to pay to ensure that it is a poor argument for giving GPs all the money to those who need help were able to get it. spend, especially when the National Audit Office research, Due to my experience with muscular dystrophy, I which has been quoted, shows that giving GPs extra have the privilege of being the chairman of the all-party money under the contract would not necessarily give us parliamentary group on the subject. That group has a vast increase in overall productivity. If we drew a shown what we as parliamentarians can do together. We graph showing the rise in income and the outcomes at have come together, across the parties, and made huge GP surgeries—I can give hon. Members copies of the improvements in the past few years in ensuring that PAC report—we would find a phenomenon similar to specialist commissioning groups have worked with the that described by the hon. Member for Banbury with all-party group here and with PCTs on the ground, respect to hospitals. There does not, therefore, seem to making real improvements in the lives of people suffering be quite as clear-cut a case as one might wish to justify a from muscular dystrophy. We had a meeting about a case for public dissatisfaction, and the public might month ago in this House. People came from across the have a case for not being as dissatisfied as all that. country and across the political spectrum, and there I want to refer Members to an excellent document were also professionals in the health service. They were from the Commonwealth Fund, which contains up-to-date all concerned about the direction of travel on which the research on many health systems across the world that Government are bent. Their concerns are: will they still are comparable to that in the UK. The research includes be able to access the things they need? Will specialised a number of indicators that are very favourable to our commissioning groups still be able to work together to system, and this is copper-bottomed research. It shows deliver the services they want? They have genuine concerns that the UK has lower than average spending; that, that the all-party group will take forward with the according to UK citizens, our system needs less changing Minister as the debate continues. than those of our peers—that is what people in our This debate is about satisfaction. Why is satisfaction country say and what people in other countries do not up? There are a number of reasons. Although I have say to the same extent; that it inspires the greatest some issues with the hon. Member for Banbury, I agree confidence in terms of effective treatment; that it requires with him in that I have campaigned against the private the citizen to fork out the fewest additional payments; finance initiative since before the previous Government and that it is among the best for quick appointments, took office, since the early 1990s, when the idea was first access and diagnosis. It is not perfect, and I have not floated by the former Secretary of State for Health and undermined the case for all sorts of changes in the now Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice, NHS, but as we say in Lancashire, “Mustn’t grumble.” the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe There is a case for looking at what we have delivered (Mr Clarke). I opposed it back then, and I have thought and perhaps celebrating it. it the wrong direction for my Government to take over As Government, as parties and as politicians in general, the past 13 years. The truth is that my Government had we can certainly make a case for reform, and that case to do something. can be made independently of this debate. What I The hon. Member for Banbury hit the nail on the cannot convince myself of at the moment—indeed, head when he said that spending on health was 3% of none of us can—is that the public are dissatisfied with GDP in the 1980s. We know it was 3% because people the NHS. They are not. Nor can I convince myself that were being looked after in Victorian hospitals. As my they have grounds for dissatisfaction that go beyond hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) those one would find in any health service, anywhere in regularly says, in his area people were being looked after the world at any time. in an old workhouse. That was not good enough for the Labour party, and it was not good enough for the Hugh Bayley (in the Chair): It might help Mr Anderson people of this country. That is why we decided that over and Mr Morris if I say that the two Front Benchers the period we would increase investment in the NHS, have each agreed to speak for 10 minutes, which leaves a and we increased it by 300%. The people of this country further 20 minutes for debate: 10 minutes for each of went along with that, including when we put 1% on you. Mr Anderson. national insurance contributions. People supported that 119WH NHS (Public Satisfaction)30 MARCH 2011 NHS (Public Satisfaction) 120WH

[Mr David Anderson] We should be thankful for the people who work in the NHS. I get really frustrated and annoyed when I hear move because they believed in the service that the NHS coalition Members and the Secretary of State, who delivered. We should never forget that. seems to take real pleasure in denigrating trade unionists, During discussions on developing a more capital-intensive as if trade unionists were removed from this. The vast NHS, into which a lot of money went, we saw real majority of trade unionists who represent health workers moves on staff harmonisation, recognising the roles of are hands-on professionals. They are not sitting in an staff and increasing the responsibilities of people at office all day; they are at the coal face. They are not just different levels in the health service. A huge amount of talking about representing people; they are doing it, day work went into that. While that was happening, other in, day out. It is a disgrace that a party pretending to be work was being done on improving public health across the party of the big society should denigrate the people the board. who are part of the largest voluntary group in the country. They stand up for people day in and day out. The hon. Member for Southport (John Pugh) raised At the same time as standing up for their colleagues, the issue of productivity. It is strange how he defined they work in the service, they represent the service and productivity. I would be interested to read the report they fight for the people they take care of. Their voice is from the NAO on defining it, and I am glad that he has important; their voice is informed and should not be brought it to my attention. Productivity used to be ignored. measured in the health service by recording when an episode concluded. An episode could be concluded What do we see? We see Ministers refusing to listen to when someone died. A hospital where more people died groups within the health service. I just picked up a was more successful in terms of productivity than one report of the Second Reading, when I referred to one of where somebody kept coming back and that episode those groups, the King’s Fund. Others include the Ministers’ was not concluded. That is a perverse way to look at own colleague, the hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston); productivity. The real measure of productivity is that the British Medical Association, denigrated here by the there are twice as many people alive at 85 and over than hon. Member for Banbury; the Royal College of Physicians; there were 20 years ago. Should we not celebrate that? Is the Royal College of Nursing and the head of Arthritis that not a productivity increase of which we can all be Care. Every one of those has been ignored by the proud? That is the result of the work done. Government, on the basis of “We know best.” I am not going to pretend the NHS is perfect. We Most Conservative Members have had a degree of know it is not perfect; every one of us as constituency education way beyond mine. However, in this debate, MPs will have dealt with issues. the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner) should be heeded, when he said that a lot Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): It is not a question of of them have been “educated beyond their intelligence”. not thinking that it is perfect, but one of wanting If this debate does not show that, nothing else does. The constantly to improve it. The hon. Member for Southport truth is that constantly over the past 13 years, health (John Pugh) offered a view, with which I concur, that an professionals have said to us, “Let us get on with the individual’s experience of the NHS is different from job.”The promise the Conservative party gave in opposition their broad view, based on what they read in the press. was that it would do exactly that; it would let them get The personal experience of the vast majority of people on with the job, because there has been far too much is either positive or very positive. The broad view is less meddling in the health service. I agree with that but, so, which is hardly surprising, since the vast majority of now, instead of letting them get on with the job, the editors of news journals in this country do not regard Government are turning the health service upside down. good news as news at all. It is also true that many Not only will it not work, it will make it much worse. It people have a positive view of services they perceive to is a disgrace that it is happening. be under threat. Take the example of a local school. There is always a more positive view if it is under threat. 3.29 pm The problem in this country is that millions of people, sadly, believe the NHS to be under threat. Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bayley. I pay Mr Anderson: I thank my hon. Friend and neighbour: tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Leyton and I will discuss that with him later. Wanstead (John Cryer) for securing this important debate As a constituency MP, I have had three cases over the on public satisfaction with the NHS. Some important past six years of supporting people making complaints issues have been raised by my right hon. and hon. against the NHS. We took them as far as we could, Friends, but I will not rehearse them. Suffice it to say trying to raise resolutions. However, none of those that we are having this debate because information has people opposed the NHS as an organisation; it was the been released as the result of a debacle in the Department, specific treatment they had received that they were and I am delighted that the information is now available. complaining about. There have actually been hugely There may be a good reason for the Secretary of State improved outcomes, as I know from talking to thousands wanting to keep the contents of the satisfaction report of ordinary folk across the constituency. How happy under wraps. It confirms the outstanding NHS legacy they are that we built—thankfully, before this Government that Labour passed to the Health Secretary in 2010. He got in—a new health and leisure centre in Gateshead. inherited a national health service that was rescued Unlike the building schools for the future money, that from 18 years of Tory mismanagement, and now enjoys was not stopped. We got it built before 7 May last year: the highest rate of public satisfaction in its history. thank God for that. The real people who matter—the The Ipsos MORI survey, to which my hon. Friend public—are concerned about where we are going. the Member for Leyton and Wanstead referred, states: 121WH NHS (Public Satisfaction)30 MARCH 2011 NHS (Public Satisfaction) 122WH

“Public satisfaction with the running of the NHS remains very and thirdly, high at 72%. This high level of satisfaction has now been sustained “people are treated with dignity and respect when they use NHS for over a year making the public’s perception of the NHS a real services.” success story.” In-house NHS provision of a high quality is favoured The real reason why the Health Secretary hoped that his by the public, but the Tory-led proposals in the Health Department had not published that report is that it and Social Care Bill threaten that. Over time, as the shows him to be completely out of step with the British private sector wins contracts from NHS bodies, the public. He cites his former boss, Lord Tebbit, as his NHS provider that is displaced will have to close, and political hero, but he does not understand what the there is a risk that we will be left with private companies public so value about the NHS. Instead, he is doing to it competing with one another for multi-million pound exactly what he did to the utilities in the 1980s, when he contracts. That is the Lansley vision of the NHS, and it was working for his hero, Lord Tebbit, by applying is completely out of step with British public opinion. 1980s privatisation principles and policies to the health service. John Pugh: People were asked whether major changes Current polls of public satisfaction with the NHS are or only minor changes were needed in their local health all the more important when we consider that the system. The figures for the UK show that 62% believe revolution—that is what it is—now under way in the that only minor changes are needed, which is by far the NHS was not described or set out for the British people highest figure on the graph of most of the comparable until some months after the general election. The systems. Conservative manifesto said the Conservatives would “defend the NHS from Labour’s cuts and reorganisations”, Grahame M. Morris: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. His point is a good one, and was well yet the Government are delivering a real-terms cut in made. There is no need for the revolutionary change spending, and a radical reorganisation that will undermine that we are facing. the NHS. Time is limited, so I shall conclude. Without polling Nowhere did the Health Secretary explain his plan to and without understanding the facts, the Government apply 1980s-style privatisation mechanisms to the NHS; would take a reckless step in the dark. If they do not to create an economic regulator for health in the form consider public opinion in their annual surveys, they of Monitor, costing upwards of £500 million over the may end up with a shock in the biggest survey of lifetime of this parliament, an issue that was raised by all—the one planned for May 2015. the hon. Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry) in respect of the Government’s commitment to reduce bureaucracy; Hugh Bayley (in the Chair): I shall call Mr Dromey to to expose the NHS to European competition law, which order at 3.40, so he has a few minutes in which to speak. also applies to our utilities; or to handing the £80 billion NHS budget to private bodies with GPs as figureheads, but to which freedom of information provisions will not 3.36 pm apply. Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): It is a Instead, the Health Secretary spent the previous six pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bayley. years as Opposition spokesman doing everything possible Unaccustomed as I am to being brief, the national to avoid giving any indication of his plans for radical health service is the jewel in the crown of public service change for the NHS. I am sure that there was no provision. It was one of the greatest achievements of mention of removing the private patient cap to allow the post-war Labour Government. It has served this uncontrolled focus on profit-making in hospital trusts, country well for two generations and, as with the hon. a mechanism that will push NHS patients to the back of Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson), my mother was the queue. a nurse who came from County Tipperary to train in a hospital here in London. The Secretary of State’s coyness had paid off, because The national health service was on its knees in 1997, the public, who are overwhelmingly satisfied with the and was proudly rebuilt by a Labour Government. I see NHS service that Labour had rebuilt over 13 years in the benefits of that in my constituency and Birmingham Government, did not suspect a thing. Health was not as a whole in the magnificent Queen Elizabeth hospital, raised once in the last prime ministerial debate before the health centres such as that in Stockland Green, and the general election. the walk-in centres such as those in Kingstanding and I want to focus my remarks on how public satisfaction, Erdington high street. They are served by outstanding and in some areas dissatisfaction, might apply to the staff whom I cannot praise too highly. They range from Health Secretary’s proposals in the Health and Social the Erdington consortium of 17 doctors who are deeply Care Bill. Now that the Ipsos MORI survey has found committed to the national health service, and my hon. its way into the public domain, we may consider its Friend the Member for Blaydon is right in saying that implications for the current upheaval planned by the staff at all levels of the NHS are a credit to this country Secretary of State. Three specific polls in the survey give The problem is the Government’s two fundamental a clear indication of public preference for the future of broken promises. They promised to protect spending on the NHS, with between 63% and 65% agreeing with the the NHS, but in fact there will be real-terms decreases following statements: first, the in 143 of the 151 primary care trusts this year. The “NHS provides good value for money to taxpayers”; Government promised no more top-down reorganisation. Instead, they have embarked on the most radical and secondly, the reckless reorganisation possible, which will have serious “NHS provides patients with the best treatment possible”, consequences for the NHS, and will inevitably see the 123WH NHS (Public Satisfaction)30 MARCH 2011 NHS (Public Satisfaction) 124WH

[Jack Dromey] to adopt it; I remember they did the same with green policies. I was working in the Department of Energy national taken out of the national health service. The and Climate Change at the time, and for every new idea Government should think again about their friendless we thought of, the Conservatives would say, “That is a proposals, and I welcome the expressions of concern very good idea; we thought of it first.”They did practically from both sides of the Chamber about the ill-thought-out, the same thing with the health service. deeply damaging proposals. The Prime Minister led the charge and spoke about It is not just the NHS that will suffer. So too will the support that his family had received from front-line some of the most vulnerable groups in our society. Like NHS staff. People wanted to believe him and felt sympathy my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon, I have been a for him. They understood what he was saying and strong supporter of the muscular dystrophy campaign, wanted to believe his promise to protect the NHS. In one of many organisations which has pointed out that, fact, analysis has shown that attitudes to the Prime at the moment, because of economies of scale organised Minister changed fundamentally. He went from being through PCTs, we can count on specialist services that seen as an ex-Bullingdon boy and a shadowy ex-adviser those who suffer from this dreadful wasting disease and to Lord Lamont— their families badly need. It asks what will happen in future if we move to GP consortia and a complete 3.41 pm change in the nature of the national health service. It Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. believes that it is being let down by the Government, who are making a fundamental mistake, and I hope that 3.54 pm they will think again. On resuming—

3.39 pm Emily Thornberry: Before the Division, I was talking about the way in which the former Bullingdon boy and Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) shadowy ex-adviser to Lord Lamont was transformed (Lab): It is an essential truth that there is mounting by his seeming commitment to the national health satisfaction with the national health service, just as service. People wanted to believe that he wanted to there was during the Labour Government’s entire period protect public services. When the Prime Minister summed in office. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for up his priorities as N-H-S, people wanted to give him Leyton and Wanstead (John Cryer) for securing a debate the benefit of the doubt. on this important subject. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bayley, for the first time. Before the last election, the Conservatives made two promises about the NHS. First, they promised to increase It has been interesting to hear the different views spending year on year. Secondly, in November 2009, the expressed in this debate. We heard some interesting Prime Minister told the Royal College of Pathologists: views from the hon. Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry), “With the Conservatives there will be no more of the tiresome, and I am glad to hear that his GPs are still speaking to meddlesome, top-down re-structures that have dominated the last him. Perhaps he should listen to a larger group of decade of the NHS.” people who work in the national health service, because They have broken both those promises. Although we he will find that at the moment it is the NHS versus the have heard them claim that the Secretary of State for Government. Health talked about his proposals on a wet Wednesday I listened with interest to the hon. Member for Southport afternoon in Wimbledon, the people do not believe it; (John Pugh), and perhaps we should also put on the they were not there to hear it, they do not believe that record the interest shown by Labour Members. Attending they voted for it, and they certainly did not vote for it the debate are my hon. Friends the Members for Easington when they voted for the Liberal Democrats, because (Grahame M. Morris), for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan they believed that they were voting for elected primary Reynolds), for Gateshead (Ian Mearns), for Edmonton care trusts when they voted Lib Dem. (Mr Love), for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery), for Leyton and The Conservatives are taking a huge risk by undermining Wanstead, for Blaydon (Mr Anderson), for Bolton North the NHS. Nigel Lawson has said that the NHS is East (Mr Crausby), and for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey), and my right hon. Friend the Member “the closest thing the English have to a religion”. for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke). I People meddle with it at their peril. Going into battle shall give an honorary mention to the hon. Member for with it, as the Government have done, will be toxic for Strangford (Jim Shannon), too. I believe they would all them. speak with one voice: the national health service is The Conservatives are at long last realising that they popular. It is not perfect, but it is doing a good job. have made a profound mistake, but it is too late, because Leave it alone and do the right thing. people know that introducing competition into the heart In 1997, only 35% of people were very satisfied with of the national health service is completely at odds with the national health service. According to the survey of the NHS ethos of equality and co-operation. That the British social attitudes, that figure rose to 60% under Conservatives are doing all this without a mandate the Labour Government. The NHS became a non-political from the people makes it even worse. Their reforms are issue. The Ipsos MORI poll consistently showed that causing profound unease among health workers and the seven out of 10 people described the NHS as a key public. issue, but by 2009 only one in 10 people felt the NHS to The Conservatives are so desperate to cover up and be one of the most important issues for them. As a to counter opposition that they have been trying to result, the Conservatives changed their strategy and manipulate public opinion with false statistics. To hear tried to make the NHS a non-political issue. They tried the Prime Minister claim that we are behind the rest of 125WH NHS (Public Satisfaction)30 MARCH 2011 NHS (Public Satisfaction) 126WH

Europe on heart disease and cancer was appalling. He gave me this quote because he did not have time to use was corrected by Professor John Appleby, who has it, but it needs to be said as often as possible. Bevan already been quoted. It is simply inaccurate not to put said: into the mix the fact that the UK had the biggest fall in “The NHS will last as long as there are folk left with the faith heart-attack deaths between 1980 and 2006 of any to fight for it.” European country. At that rate, we will have one of the The NHS does have folk willing to fight for it. lowest death rates for heart disease. It is a similar story for lung cancer and breast cancer—two of the other main killers. That is, of course, so long as standards 4pm continue to improve and the NHS is not distracted by The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon things such as a major reorganisation of the entire Burns): As others have said today, Mr Bayley, it is a NHS. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): We have had an interesting debate. Some speeches I am grateful to my hon. Friend for putting on the were a continuation of what has been said in the Health record some of the real health outcomes in this country. and Social Care Bill Committee, and they bordered on The hon. Member for Southport (John Pugh) summed fantasy. Other speeches were extremely informative. it up when he said that even if those health outcomes The speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury were not improving, there is no causal link between that (Tony Baldry) was in the latter category, and my hon. area and the reforms that the Government propose; Friend the Member for Southport (John Pugh) made a does my hon. Friend the Member for Islington South reflective and interesting speech. I listened with extreme and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) agree? interest, as I always do, to the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke), who Emily Thornberry: That is right. It is a little like made a typically thoughtful speech about an area of saying, “There are some difficulties with the national health and social care on which he is an acknowledged health service, so let’s change it,” without looking to see expert. I listened to the hon. Member for Easington whether those changes will actually attack the problems. (Grahame M. Morris), as I often do these days, and to None of us says that the national health service is the hon. Members for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack perfect. More things need to be done, but instead of Dromey) and for Blaydon (Mr Anderson). It was rather building on our achievements, the Government are like a curate’s egg—parts of it, depending on which undermining the national health service by taking it by hon. Member was speaking, were all right, and other the ankles, turning it upside down and shaking it hard. parts slightly broached on to fantasy island. People do not support them in doing that. Some people I congratulate the hon. Member for Leyton and even heard the Prime Minister say on the “Today” Wanstead (John Cryer) on securing this important debate. programme that the national health service was second-rate. He may be surprised to hear that I am in considerable However, the penny has finally dropped for the agreement with him on certain areas. I wish to clear up Conservatives and they realise that they are not bringing a number of his questions about the surveys. In an public opinion with them when they seek to undermine intervention on the hon. Gentleman, I alluded to the the national health service in this way, so instead they Ipsos MORI survey. There is something slightly ironic have tried to suppress the information that proves that about claiming that we refused to publish it because of there is huge public support for our NHS as it is now, its content, given that the previous Government failed fundamentally. That is the story of what has been to publish similar surveys in 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010. happening in the last few days. To say that they did not publish it because the Opposition To begin with, we have the unedifying spectacle of did not table parliamentary questions asking for it to be the Secretary of State saying that he will not give out published shows breathtaking gall. certain information about what the public feel about the The fact is that we published the March 2010 survey national health service. Then he discovers that in fact it following a written answer in December from the Minister has been given out. It is wrong of the Conservatives to of State, Department of Health, my hon. Friend the suppress information about what the public think about Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), who is the national health service—information that the public responsible for social care. It was placed in the Library, have paid for. It shows what their views are, and gives us but it was not placed on the Department of Health a baseline before this forthcoming major trauma for the website, for which I offer an apology. Some Members NHS. Then the Secretary of State says, “Actually, I’ve referred to the comments of my right hon. Friend the made a mistake. I gave out the information in any Secretary of State. Those statements were made in good event.” That is the other big concern about the present faith but he was given the wrong advice. That is unfortunate, Government. Not only are their reforms fundamentally but he made that statement some three months after the driven by their ideology, but they are incompetent. results of the survey had been published. There is much criticism of that. The hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead asked The bottom and top of it is this: the Conservative whether we will continue with the survey. I can tell him party can do whatever they want with statistics. They that a further survey has been done. It has not been can spin as they wish with whatever they want. They completed, in so far as it has not yet been given to the can say black is white until they are red—or blue—in Department, but that will happen in due course. What the face, but the truth will out. The truth is that the happens in future remains to be seen, as no decision has public love their NHS. Labour gave the Government been taken on future exercises. The hon. Gentleman the national health service on trust. They should work also mentioned the general life-style survey. Again, no on what we have achieved and tackle any outstanding decision has been taken. In light of that information, it problems. My hon. Friend the Member for Easington is incorrect to say that we will not allow it to proceed. 127WH NHS (Public Satisfaction)30 MARCH 2011 NHS (Public Satisfaction) 128WH

[Mr Simon Burns] The House will know that although the money going into the NHS has dramatically increased over the last On the question of the British social attitudes survey, decade, which I welcome, productivity has not. In fact, things are a little more complex. The hon. Gentleman it has fallen by 0.2% every year since 1997. In hospitals, will be aware that the Department of Health is not the it has fallen further—by 1.4% a year between 1997 and only Department involved; it is a cross-Government 2008. However, such statistics can sound quite abstract. survey, and the Department of Health has some interest We should think about what they actually mean for it in, but not exclusively so. Again, that is being considered, patients. so I cannot give a definitive answer as to what will Some of the targets and incentives in the current happen. system are simply perverse; far from promoting good-quality Many hon. Members, including the hon. Member for care, they encourage poor care. Take maternity services. Leyton and Wanstead, pointed out that the last survey With antenatal care, the more visits or scans providers published by Ipsos MORI said that public satisfaction can record, the more they are paid. It is in the financial with the NHS was relatively high. That is self-evident, interests of the hospital to provide care on a purely and I suspect that all hon. Members, as constituency reactive basis, dealing with problems as they arise, MPs, will be aware of that from their constituents, their rather than preventing them from happening. correspondence and just talking to people. As we heard, the most recent research puts overall satisfaction rates The result is poorer health outcomes for the mother at 72%. and child and a bigger bill for the taxpayer. No midwife or doctor would ever organise the system in such a way. If we were discussing the future of any other public No doctor or nurse working in acute care would design service, perhaps the debate would end there. However, a system in which a hospital would be paid for a mistake we are not here today to discuss other public services, rather than be penalised for it. For example, would they such as local bus services or rubbish collections, vital as pay if a patient were discharged from hospital only to they are. We are here to discuss the national health be bounced back into A andEaweekorsolater service, which for the public is literally a matter of life because they were not properly treated? No health and death, and they have a high regard for it. People professional would choose to work in an environment expect the NHS to be there when they are at their most in which they and their colleagues are rewarded not for vulnerable, or when their family members are in greatest how well they treat patients, but for how well they need. process them through the health system. One cannot quantify what the NHS means to the Hon. Members claim that there is no rationale for people of this country with a smattering of national our reforms, but they are wrong. I do not claim that the statistics, however comforting they might seem. The NHS is failing; there is much that is good about it, and public have never been over-inclined to set great store much of what it does is internationally acclaimed. None by the pronouncements of politicians about the brilliance the less, if hon. Members were honest they would of the NHS, however familiar such pronouncements accept that there is room for improvement, as was might be. However, people do not live their lives through shown by the Ipsos MORI poll. the monochrome of MORI’s painstaking statistical analyses. They do not judge the NHS on the numbers. They judge I do not think that it is right that pensioners over the the NHS on their experience of it; it is the NHS staff age of 75 in the primary care trust that serves the that they meet, and what they say and do, that ultimately constituency of the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead informs their opinion. are almost twice as likely to be admitted to hospital in The fact that satisfaction rates are relatively high is an emergency than those over the age of 75 in Devon or without doubt a tribute to the fact that those staff treat Cornwall. I do not think that it is right that, in some thousands of patients every day. I am sure that Members parts of the country, people are more than five times on both sides of the Chamber are united in their admiration more likely to die of heart disease. for the work of staff across the board, and we should In its current form, the NHS cannot hope to cope congratulate them on doing it day in, day out, when with the rising demand from our ageing population and looking after our constituents, ourselves and our families. the relentless rise in the cost of drugs and treatment. They do a fantastic job. We should never forget that we Our health system is no longer battling with infectious owe them a debt of honour and gratitude. disease. The typical patient is not a young man with TB or polio, as it might have been in the 1940s, but someone Mr Anderson: Will the Minister give way? who is over 75 with probably two, if not more, long-term conditions and social care needs, too. It is a very different problem that requires a very different kind of health Mr Burns: No. If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, service. I do not have much time. Even more importantly, as a nation, we should be We should not kid ourselves that that is the whole aspiring to be as healthy and to live as long as our story. Although some may be only too content with the European neighbours. A recent OECD report found fact that three quarters of people are happy with the that, if the NHS were to perform as well as the best- NHS, I am not. High levels of public satisfaction are a performing health systems, we could increase life expectancy genuine compliment to the work of NHS staff, but they by three years. The argument for change could not be do not undermine the case for modernisation or imply clearer. that the NHS is perfect or should never change. There is plenty of room for improvement, building on the high The ultimate objective of modernisation is to ensure satisfaction rates that we already enjoy, as shown by the that the quality of care that people receive is on a par various surveys mentioned today. with the best available anywhere in the world. To do 129WH NHS (Public Satisfaction) 30 MARCH 2011 130WH that, we need to make fundamental changes to the Foreign Fishermen (Visas) NHS. For example, we need to ensure that it is the GP and not a manager or civil servant in Whitehall who determines the needs and requirements of their patients. 4.14 pm A radical extension of patient choice would allow patients Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): This issue is important to choose not only where they are treated, but which to my constituency and many other constituencies across consultant-led team will treat them. Patients could choose the United Kingdom. Along with being in the armed their GP and even, where appropriate, their treatment. forces, commercial sea fishing represents the most dangerous There should be greater accountability and transparency occupation in the United Kingdom—a fact that would in the NHS to give patients the information that they be confirmed by our fishermen and those who represent need to make choices and to drive up quality. As the them. The programme “Deadliest Catch” and the film Society for Cardiothoracic Surgery said only last week, “The Perfect Storm” illustrate very clearly the issues publicly reporting on the performance of hospitals and that fishermen face each and every day. surgeons treating patients with heart disease can improve A combination of increasing regulatory burdens and mortality rates by 50%. decreasing financial returns, compounded by the antisocial There should also be more independence and freedom nature of the job, have led to local UK share fishermen for clinicians, so that, if local health and social care drifting away from the occupation. Although there is a professionals think that they can deliver better services method in place to address the problems, we need some to support stroke patients, they can set up a social help moving things along, which is why I sought this enterprise that will do that. We will give genuine freedom debate. Although the drifting away is not a universal to foundation trusts, so that they can strive to provide trend within the industry, the larger part of the fleet, the best possible outcomes for patients. comprising those trawlers targeting certain species such as cod, haddock, whiting and nephrops, has been In conclusion, there have been a lot of disingenuous particularly vulnerable to the trend for the past decade statements about privatisation of the health service and and more. the quality of care. If hon. Members are prepared to The take-home wage is a key concern of the fishermen. listen, I will assure them that we have no intention of It does not always reflect the nature of the work, which privatising the health service. We just want to improve has been brought into our homes by the TV series patient care. “Trawlermen”. Figures from the Sea Fish Industry Authority’s regular economic surveys of the fleet show that the average gross annual wage for a Northern Ireland-based share fisherman works out at approximately £15,000, less their tax and stamp. Other hon. Members will speak on behalf of their areas, but I suspect that the wage will be similar. Given the salaries available in other sectors, it is no wonder that many share fishermen have chosen to leave the industry. There is a perception that share fishermen are mainly unskilled or unqualified workers, but that is not the case. Regrettably, fishermen’s skills and the qualifications that they are required by law to possess go largely unrecognised outside the fishing sector. The sea fishing industry has changed dramatically over the past few years to become a multi-million-pound industry. Skippers and their crews work on modern, sophisticated vessels and are expected to be highly skilled technicians who are able to act as efficient harvesters of the seas and to operate a range of electronic instruments for safe navigation and for finding fish. Gone are the days of throwing a net over the side of a boat to catch fish; it is much more sophisticated now. Share fishermen in the UK are self-employed, so they have the option of looking for alternative employment in either the marine or onshore sectors. Trawler owners, on the other hand, still have a business to manage and bank loans to repay. They have a choice. Of course they will pursue every opportunity available to them to enhance the value of their catch or reduce their overheads so that the profit and consequently the crew share can be maximised. I can cite several examples from my constituency of Strangford where trawler owners are working collectively to bulk-purchase fuel and promote the local consumption of their catch. They are doing everything practically and physically possible to improve their profit margins. Despite taking such actions, crewing problems persist. Consequently, trawler owners are forced to look for alternative crewing arrangements. 131WH Foreign Fishermen (Visas)30 MARCH 2011 Foreign Fishermen (Visas) 132WH

[Jim Shannon] The first Filipino fishermen arrived in Northern Ireland in 2007 and their numbers in the three ports along the The European Union and its common fisheries policy County Down coast increased quickly. They filled, and possess few positive aspects for our fishing fleet. One continue to fill, an important void in trawler crews at a such aspect has been to increase the labour pool. With critical time for the industry. Access to the UK was the expansion of the EU eastwards, many citizens of achieved through transit visas, an important condition the independent Baltic states have found their way to of which is the requirement that the vessel to which they the periphery of the Union and have been able to secure are attached spend the majority of its fishing time positions as crew members on board UK-based trawlers. outside UK territorial waters. In fact, these fishermen Many of the new recruits to the UK’s fishing industry were not permitted to live on shore. That was probably had previous fishing industry and merchant navy experience. quite a strict condition, but they none the less tried to However, they lacked the recognised qualifications required keep to it. by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency. That obstacle, As I have mentioned, the primary difference between compounded by language difficulties, was largely overcome. the Filipino fishermen and other immigrant fishermen None the less, significant investment was required on from outside the European economic area on the one the part of the trawler owners, as interpreters were hand, and UK share fishermen on the other, is that the drafted in to assist tutors in delivering the courses that former group are employed. As such, they have a contract resulted in the mandatory qualifications. of employment with the trawler owners, and those Let me set out where we are, and then I will outline contracts carry with them obligations for the owners— how we can move forward. obligations to do with pay, insurance cover and travel costs. The take-home pay of a British share fisherman varies from trawler to trawler and from week to week, Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) depending on the weather and the danger that they face. (SNP): The hon. Gentleman has laid out very well the Their pay is based on a share of the trawlerman’s situation of the share fishermen. People come in from profits. If a trawler makes no profit, then the crewmen other countries to do the work of a share fisherman, get no salary, so it is clear that the Filipino fisherman and there are many jobs onshore that are dependent on has an advantage that the share fisherman does not. their work. Barratlantic in my constituency has told me Employed crew members’ contracts stipulate a minimum that if it loses its three overseas fishermen, it will have to weekly wage, and bonuses are then paid, which differ lay off members of staff at its fish factory, because from trawler to trawler. Overall, however, when all the fewer fish will be landed. That underlines how important costs are accumulated, the share of the profit and the it is that we manage to keep those skilled men working salary paid to any crew member are very similar. on our boats in Scotland and Northern Ireland. However, a big difference is the fact that, from the outset, the transit visa required non-EEA fishermen to Jim Shannon: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his live on board the trawlers. Although their living conditions intervention. The wonderful thing about being an are no different from those of UK fishermen, the non-EEA MP—apart from the privilege of being here—is that the fishermen do not get a break from those conditions issues that are prevalent in the area that I represent are during their contracts, which can last for several months. the same as those in Scotland, England and Wales. In many of the ports where the Royal National They are not specific to my constituency alone, which is Mission to Deep Sea Fishermen has a presence, immigrant why we need the help of Westminster, the Government fishermen have availed themselves of the mission’s facilities. and the Minister. Indeed, in some ports, such as Troon and Kilkeel, the Despite the difficulties, the first wave of immigrant mission opened mini-centres to provide rest and relaxation fishermen addressed many of the crewing problems. facilities for visiting UK fishermen and immigrant fishermen However, the economic factors, which are well known alike. As always, the mission needs to be commended to many of us across the UK, meant that many of the for the Christian service that it provides, and the Christian immigrants began to return home. UK trawler owners witness that it bears to fishermen all over the UK. I pay almost found themselves in chapter two of the crewing tribute to it. crisis, and that is where we are today. Consequently, Unfortunately, there have been occasions when owners trawler owners and their agents began to look further have been accused of abusing crew members. I will put afield. In 2006, the first Filipino fishermen began to this on record: some crew members have made certain appear in fishing communities around the UK, and claims. However, I met Filipino fishermen no more than particularly in Scotland. The trend started in Scotland a month ago in Portavogie and spoke to them, basically and then made its way across the rest of the UK, to through an interpreter. I know that some people in this England and Northern Ireland. Chamber have difficulty following my accent, so I suspect Filipino fishermen are different from their UK colleagues, that the Filipinos in Portavogie probably had even more in that they tend to be employed. In addition, as the difficulty. Fortunately, however, we had a translator, Philippines, like the UK, is surrounded by sea, all the and I was able to convey to them that I would be new recruits who came over to the UK tended to have bringing this matter to the House within a short time. seagoing experience, and indeed fishing experience, with qualifications that on the most part were recognised by Mr MacNeil: As somebody else who causes some the UK, including by the MCA. Furthermore, as I have difficulties for Hansard—I am quite proud of that fact—I heard for myself, their knowledge of the English language would like to back up what the hon. Gentleman is is impressive. I have spoken to some of these Filipino saying and talk about another aspect of the issue. In my fishermen in the port of Portavogie, and I must say that experience, fishermen who have lost a man because he they are very clear in what they are telling me. has returned to the Philippines have not sought to 133WH Foreign Fishermen (Visas)30 MARCH 2011 Foreign Fishermen (Visas) 134WH replace him with another Filipino. They have been quite Filipino fishermen have had Filipino consular staff specific in wanting to get the man who they have got to down to see them and speak to them about the matters know to come back and work with them. That shows that affect them. I have discussed the issue of the the building of personal relationships, and indeed Filipino fishermen with the UK Border Agency on two friendships of a certain kind, between men when they occasions, and I had occasion to table a question for the are out fishing together. I find that quite heartening, Minister for Immigration on the subject just last year. and it is quite the opposite of some of the scare stories. These are important matters for us as representatives of That has been my experience in this field. the fishing industry, but I must say that they are even more important for the Filipino fishermen and the Jim Shannon: I thank the hon. Gentleman again for trawler skippers for whom they work. his contribution. There is a very strong bond of friendship, During 2008 and 2009, there were extensive consultations loyalty, togetherness and comradeship that comes from between the UK Border Agency, industrial representatives being together on a small boat. I do not know if other and others. The UK Border Agency became aware of Members have ever had the chance to get out on a just how valuable both the non-UK fishermen and the fishing boat. If they have not, they should take the non-EEA fishermen were to the continued safe operation opportunity to go out in one. They would see the small of the fishing industry. That point about safety backs section of the boat that the fishermen sleep in. If they up the points that the hon. Members for Na h-Eileanan were not claustrophobic before, they certainly would be an Iar (Mr MacNeil), and for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), afterwards, because it is almost incredibly small. have made about the safe operation of boats. Whenever Whenever I have met the Filipino fishermen in Portavogie, the skipper goes to sleep at night, he wants to be sure an area that I represent back home, I have seen their that the person in charge of the boat knows what they commitment. When they were wanted at 4 am down in are doing. That is exactly the issue that we are discussing. the harbour, they were there. In fact, they were there The transit visas that I mentioned were due to last perhaps half an hour before they were going out on the some 18 months, expiring in September 2011. That is boats. They were always on time and they worked hard why we are having this debate in Westminster Hall all day.That is how they did things. As the hon. Gentleman today. Perhaps we can get an extension to those visas, or has said very clearly, the Filipino fishermen have a some concession or help from the Minister’s Department. strong commitment to work. Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman has made a very Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): I congratulate good point about safety. Earlier, I talked about people the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. getting to know each other and forming a bond. I have To back up what he has just said, one fishing boat been told that one of the reasons why the trawler skipper told me that if he goes to sleep at night, he owners do not want just anybody is that it takes a wants to be sure that the person at the wheel is somebody person time to get used to each individual boat and to in whom he has complete trust. The bond and the trust know exactly where certain ropes, anchors, grappling that are built up over a number of years are very hooks and other pieces of equipment are, or where the important, and that is why there is a desire to retain hauler is controlled from, on each individual boat. That these employees. is a genuine reason for keeping a man who has experience of a particular boat on that boat, rather than just seeking anybody. I have had fishermen come to me to Jim Shannon: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his ensure that an individual who is skilled and trained on intervention, which highlights the fact that, right across their boat remains on their boat. I wonder if the hon. the UK, the same issues apply to us all. It also highlights Gentleman finds exactly the same thing in his area. our knowledge as elected representatives of immigrant fishermen, and Filipino fishermen in particular, and the Jim Shannon: The area that I represent is exactly the need to have them retained in the fishing industry in the same. The knowledge that is earned on one boat is areas that we represent. perhaps slightly different to the knowledge earned on another. It takes time to get used to a boat. I mentioned Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman has been very that earlier, when I said that today’s fisherman has so kind in giving way and sharing his time. One of the much more to learn than his predecessors of 10, 15 or difficulties that the people and the companies that want 20 years ago. these men to return have raised with me is the cost involved. There are legal fees of £1,250 plus VAT; there Mr Reid: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for are the Home Office fees of £1,000; and there is a being so generous in giving way. I want to back up the further fee of £170 for every sponsor’s certificate issued. point that he made. This is a highly skilled job, and it Does the hon. Gentleman feel that, especially at this should be put on the list of occupations for which time, those are costs that businesses should not really be employers should be able to get work permits, as long as facing on an almost continual or cyclical basis? Perhaps employers can demonstrate that they have made every the Migration Advisory Council should seek to reclassify effort to recruit fishermen from within the EU. In those these fishermen and put them into the specialisms that circumstances, they should be allowed to obtain visas, they are quite clearly and patently qualified for. particularly to retain the staff whom they already have and in whom they have trust and confidence. Jim Shannon: I wholeheartedly agree with the hon. Gentleman about the costs involved. Those costs seem Jim Shannon: I thank the hon. Gentleman for making to increase every year, and continuously throughout the that point, because it is the crux of the issue, and of our year. I am also concerned about them. requests to the Minister and the Department. 135WH Foreign Fishermen (Visas)30 MARCH 2011 Foreign Fishermen (Visas) 136WH

[Jim Shannon] the seas around our islands must be acknowledged. Many of our fishermen’s management responsibilities Of the 1,500 visas that were allocated, only 70 were have been mistakenly surrendered to the EU, but that is taken up. That might prompt the question, “If only a different debate for a different day. Assisting with 70 people took them up, do we really need them?” but employment in the sector is, I suggest, a small but very the fact is we do. It was not that the interest was not important way in which the House can help the industry. there. The key experience and skills of the people involved is very important, and those who were able to fill the void before the Filipino fishermen came have now, by 4.33 pm and large, gone back to eastern Europe. There have The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the been, and still are, experienced and qualified fishermen Home Department (Lynne Featherstone): It is a pleasure working on the trawlers, and the issue today is that to be before you this afternoon, Mr Bayley. I congratulate fishermen and employers do not want to lose that the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) on expertise come September 2011, which is what they say securing the debate, and on drawing our attention to will happen. what is a very important issue in an industry that is very important to the nations represented by Members at the Mr MacNeil: On a point of information, the period other end of this room. I know that he has tabled many when only 70 applications were taken up was before the questions, had many meetings, and has an honourable last election, when the hon. Gentleman was not in the track record in raising the issue of staff who work on House. I can remember it clearly, and people came to these boats, and in presenting the problems that he has see me on the subject. The problems were those of encountered. bureaucracy, often in Manila. What with the employment The fishing industry has had to face many challenges agencies and the visa-issuing authorities in Manila, it over the years, and those challenges will continue. Non-EEA was difficult to get people out and across. Had it not ship crews travelling to UK ports to join vessels sailing been for those bureaucratic hurdles, a lot more than into international waters do not fall within the normal 70 people would have arrived. immigration rules. They enter on “to join ship” visas, which allow fresh crews to arrive in the UK and leave Jim Shannon: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that on the ship. As many international-going vessels may clarification. Yes, that was before my time. He is absolutely leave port with no stated destination, awaiting orders to right that there was a pervasive level of bureaucracy pick up new cargo, “leaving the UK” is defined as that prevented people from applying. sailing beyond the 12-mile territorial limit, and that has I am conscious of the time, and intend to bring my been exploited by the fishing industry. speech to a conclusion. It remains the case that most In some instances such exploitation has been permissible people signing on for the dole are dissuaded from when the vessels involved are those that traditionally seeking a job in the commercial fishing fleet because of fish outside the limit—the deep sea fleet. However, the long hours, the low wages, the uncertainties of the inshore fleet vessel owners, who fish within the 12-mile weather and the dangers of the job. There is also the limit, have wrongly taken advantage of the loophole to question of the investment that trawler owners need to illegally employ the same cheap foreign labour as their make to train fishermen who might then choose not to deep sea fleet counterparts, resulting in many of the stay in the job. Consequently, there is a need for non-EEA 1,000 to 1,500 non-EEA fishermen in the UK fishing or immigrant workers to fill the gaps in onshore occupations, fleets being employed illegally on very low wages and and a clear need for us to retain the fishermen, particularly accommodated in unacceptable conditions while in port. the Filipinos. That led to the tragic death of two Filipinos and one The Migration Advisory Committee recently launched Latvian in a fire on a fishing boat in 2008. Although it is a consultation to update its shortage occupation list, right to highlight the pressures on owners in finding and I encourage the UK fishing industry’s representatives crews to operate their vessels, it is simply not acceptable to make representations as part of that process. That for there to be a race to the bottom, in terms of pay and would, in basic terms, entail the monetary reward that is conditions for those working in the industry. available to share fishermen reflecting the sacrifices The previous Government introduced a concession they make and the skills they have. We need a long-term to address the situation with the inshore fleet, agreeing solution to the crewing problems that the fishing fleets to a quota of up to 1,500 non-renewable fisher visas, to face, and I encourage the UK Border Agency, together allow the industry time to adjust. There was an 18-month with the other agencies involved, to instigate discussions period, which comes to an end in September. Visas were with fishing industry representatives soon. I also call on issued on the condition that non-EEA fishermen were the Home Office and the UK Border Agency to review paid the minimum wage, and suitable onshore the situation regarding the temporary visas that they accommodation was provided while they were in port. issued early last year. I am aware that the non-EEA As has been mentioned, fewer than 70 applications were fishermen to whom the visas were issued, together with received before the concession closed, and I note what the trawler owners who employ them, have acted responsibly the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) and sensibly, and I suggest that that could and should said about that being due to bureaucracy in the country be reflected in an extension to the September 2011 of origin. expiry date. Both Her Majesty’s Government and the Northern In Northern Ireland, as in the rest of the UK, commercial Ireland Assembly Government are clear that people sea fishing is a valuable industry, often based in remote who come from overseas to work within UK territorial coastal communities. It employs highly qualified technicians, waters must enjoy the protections of the national whose skill, and indeed bravery and courage, in harvesting minimum wage, and safe and proper accommodation. 137WH Foreign Fishermen (Visas)30 MARCH 2011 Foreign Fishermen (Visas) 138WH

The minimum level of pay for skilled workers is £20,000. small and that the potential loss of employment onshore The minimum wage is circa £13,000. From what has was great, so he reconsidered and introduced the 18-month been said, the industry believes that £13,000 is too high. intermediate scheme. I make a plea to the Minister to In terms of having a certain standard of living and understand that the situation is, unfortunately, still with proper accommodation, the view of the Philippines us. If we lose those men, unemployment on land will Government in respect— increase. As the Member of Parliament for Na h-Eileanan an Iar, the outer Hebrides, I know that it will happen. Mr MacNeil: I do not think that anyone is saying that That is why I make the plea to her to reflect as much, it is too high. What we are saying is that there are a and have as much understanding as the previous Minister number of jobs on land that depend on these people. I for Immigration, who certainly surprised me by changing know of some men in the Philippines who have been his opinion remarkably quickly to be practical and almost in tears on the phone saying that they cannot go sensible. I praise him for that, as I did at the time. back to Scotland because they missed the date on the paperwork. They have lost quite a lot of money. They Lynne Featherstone: I give way to the hon. Member have been saving up and sending money to their families. for Strangford. They have missed an opportunity. It is a double hit for individual human beings: the people who work ashore Jim Shannon: I am conscious of the time. What we in processing factories when product is not landed, and have is a skilled work force. We need a concession for the individuals in the Philippines who are not getting them, and we are asking the Minister to use her position the standard of employment that they might otherwise within the Department to ensure that we get it. People get. have tried hard to get workers to take those places. It has not worked, but we have a skilled work force. There Lynne Featherstone: I hear what the hon. Gentleman is a spin-off onshore. If we do not catch fish at sea, we says, and I also heard the hon. Member for Strangford cannot do further processing on land, and that is what praise the work and the ability of the Filipino workers. I leads to job losses. understand that, but it has been said that, were it not for the concession, applications would be made under tier 3 of the points-based system for non-skilled workers. Lynne Featherstone: In my understanding, the reason There are high unemployment levels in those areas, and that that is not possible is that the work force are the hope and expectation was that, during the 18-month designated as non-skilled. I understand what the hon. concession period, work would be done to encourage— Gentleman says about the skill of the Filipinos, who are seafaring folk and understand the business, but in terms of the normal visa applications, they would be made Mr MacNeil rose— under tier 3. The reason that people do not want to do the job is that it is cold, wet and nasty and does not pay Lynne Featherstone: Time is short, and I need to brilliantly, not that they cannot learn the skills needed. I make a bit of progress in addressing some of the points assure hon. Members that I am listening to their passionate raised. pleas. I am not standing here like a stone wall; I hear the The hon. Member for Strangford raised the issue of case being made. Nevertheless, I must push back a bit the Home Office fees being set at £1,000. The Home because of the levels of unemployment in those areas Office visa fees were £470, and the legal fees were a and because there has been the need for a concession. decision for the owners themselves. Holders of concessionary visas are not required to sleep onboard The UK Border Agency is considering ways to ensure the fishing boats, and should be accommodated safely that all UK-based crew, including those whose journeys onshore. The concessionary visas would not be allowed take them beyond the 12-mile territorial limit but not to under the points-based system. As I said, they fall foreign ports on a routine basis, will be properly paid under tier 3 for non-skilled workers, which is now and accommodated. Tier 3 of the points-based system closed as a point of entry due to the situation in the for low-skilled labour remains closed, however. As I local area. The Migration Advisory Committee determines said, the case for changing that must be made to the the levels and advises Her Majesty’s Government. If Migration Advisory Committee. It is important that there are skills arguments to be made, as hon. Members that case is made, as the Government can go only so far. know, they must be made to the committee, as fishing I recognise that the requirements of the concession and skills are devolved to Northern Ireland and Scotland. may have created anomalies between the levels of payment One key issue is that unemployment remains high across of different fishing fleets and contracted foreign fishing the United Kingdom and in fishing communities. It is workers working on the same vessels. Foreign fishers for the industry, not Government, to work with the have a defined income, as was described, and certainty devolved Administrations to increase local engagement about income for the period of their contracts, which in the industry. was obviously a difficulty, but that is coming to an end. The Government’s job— Mr MacNeil: Those arguments were outlined by the Minister for Immigration in the previous Government. Hugh Bayley (in the Chair): Order. We must move on However, on reflection, he saw that the numbers were to the next debate. 139WH 30 MARCH 2011 Motor Sport (Public Highways) 140WH

Motor Sport (Public Highways) is that if we want more events, and more diverse events, to take place, we cannot use the roads and highways in 4.44 pm the same way as the Isle of Man or Northern Ireland. To do so would mean suspending numerous provisions Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con): I of the Road Traffic Act 1988. We have a midway point. am delighted to see you in the Chair, Mr Bayley. British Something called a traffic regulation order allows access motor sport is Britain’s great sport success story. We to a road to be suspended, but the provisions of the often hear much about football and other sports, but Highways Acts still apply. Drivers must still average British motor sport undoubtedly leads the world. One 30 mph on the area of road closed to the public, and need only look at the first round of this year’s Formula rights of way still exist, meaning that unless a uniformed 1 championship to see that although a German driver police officer is there to prevent Mr and Mrs Smith crossed the finish line in the fastest car, the car was from carrying on their business, no one is empowered to managed, designed and built in Britain, and the team prevent them from using it. was based here. Eight out of 12 Formula 1 teams are British, as are most F1 drivers and designers. Even That is why we cannot have a Grand Prix in London some of the lead designers for Ferrari, the bastion of or a circuit around Birmingham, although other countries Italian motor sport, are more often than not British. can. We should do something about it. That is also why, when Birmingham did have an event, sponsored by the Our great teams—Williams, McLaren and now Red noble Lord Rooker, it took an Act of Parliament to Bull—have proved on the world stage not only to be suspend some of the relevant provisions. Amending the forerunners of new technologies and innovators in motoring 1998 Act or building on a traffic regulation order would but developers of British talent. Other companies such fit with the Government’s agenda of empowering local as M-Sport and Prodrive support not only Formula 1 authorities, encouraging tourism and events and putting but rallies and many other types of sporting activity on people in charge of their communities. Perhaps we the road. Britain is and has been a world leader in should look at something along the lines of a traffic motor sport, and I hope that it will continue to be one. suspension order or something that devolves the powers Motor sport is often left behind in the great sports to a local authority. debate. The first few sports pages of our newspapers are often taken up by football, even when the teams are full I am not here to ask that motor sport be allowed to of overseas players, managed by overseas managers, impose itself on communities that do not want it or that owned by overseas owners and, often, languishing in the Government give power to an unelected governing the bottom of divisions after millions of pounds spent. body to decide that it wants motor sport when the local I hope that the Government will consider my proposal community does not. I am here to ask the Government to help motor sport build on its success and go forward. to devolve power to local authorities, so that they can decide whether they want to host an event. That could We should not forget that 95% of most motor sport is be in Brecon, north Lancashire, where I am, or north amateur and consists of people participating. It is not Yorkshire—anywhere they want a rally. It is about just about the glamour and glitz of F1 or world rallying; places with rarely used lanes and roads, which desperately it is about normal rallying, hill climbing, classic cars, need inward investment, tourism or to kick-start the trailing and historical cars. Anyone who lives near or season, perhaps, at unfashionable times of the year. Let visits a motor race circuit will see that sports go on there us empower our local authorities to do that. all year round, from karting to high-performance sports. Hundreds of thousands of people enjoy motor sport in I hope that local authorities will realise that they are Britain. not on their own. The governing body, the MSA, issues The governing body of motor sport is the Motor licences for events. In motor sport, one cannot have a Sports Association, the successor to RAC MSA. It has race without a licence from the governing body. Along 200,000 members and 750 affiliated motor clubs, and with that licence comes liability cover and all the protection every year it hosts 4,500 events. The industry that feeds from being sued or from worry about not being experts into that motor sport has an amazing record, with a in the field that my constituents and the local authority turnover of £6 billion a year, only £2.6 billion of which would need. I want the Government to empower local is exported. Some 4,500 companies support the sport. authorities to seek events when they want to and to be The research and development spend—the spend for able to suspend aspects of the 1988 Act, but to do so in the future that trains tomorrow’s engineers and scientists—is conjunction with the people who know about motor 30% of turnover. The aerospace industry, from which I sport. I want them to be guided and provided with come, would be proud of such a figure, and we should liability cover, so that we can, perhaps, reap the benefits. do more to encourage that. A change would apply not only to motor sport, but to The industries on the back of motor sport—public cycling. It is bizarre that some stages of the tour de relations, marketing, sports industry, event management— France could not happen here if the bikes averaged employ 38,000 people, create another £1.7 billion in more than 30 miles an hour. One might deliberately turnover and involve 25,000 engineers. That is an incredible create a race on a road and that in itself could break the asset for this country. Some of those engineers come current highways law. Therefore, a change is also about from my constituency, having gone to Myerscough college, empowering local authorities to give cycling events a which has its own team and trains young men and proper go and getting Britain to the forefront of that women to support motor teams. Some of them have sport. We need only go out on a Sunday to realise how gone on to work in the top flight of world motor sport. big cycling has become. I took a Boris bike out for the What is wrong with motor sport? Nothing, except first time yesterday, which is the closest I get to it, but I that we could do more for it. We could do more to allow could not find a rack when I got to the other end, so it events to take place. The problem in England and Wales was a bit of disaster—I digress. 141WH Motor Sport (Public Highways)30 MARCH 2011 Motor Sport (Public Highways) 142WH

We should seek a change. It is easy and the benefits 4.56 pm are clear. On tourism, as we can see with the Jim Clark The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport rally in Scotland and motor sport all over the country, if (Mike Penning): I believe that this is the first time I have we bring thousands of tourists into parts of the country served under your chairmanship, Mr Bayley, since I that do not normally get them, it is a great thing. On the became a Minister of the Crown, and it is a pleasure to spend, Lancashire has a great link to the Isle of Man do so this afternoon. I congratulate my hon. Friend and and the tourist trophy—TT—race. Every summer former colleague from the Household Division, the thousands of people pour over to the Isle of Man to see Member for Wear and Preston. I am disappointed that that great, historic race, and they help that island with he is not wearing his regimental tie today. [Interruption.] its tourism very much. We could really benefit from I am sorry, I am not used to his new constituency name. that. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre On promoting motor sport, we have to keep recruiting and Preston North (Mr Wallace) on securing the debate the engineers and drivers of the future. We have to and on the lobbying he has done for several months on remind people that motor sport is not only about Formula behalf of the industry and his constituents. I hope that I 1, but about local teams, local rallying and local engineering. have come to the debate with good news on how we can It reminds people what can be done with engineering. progress an issue from 1928 into legislation as soon as People do not just have to build bridges, but can invent possible. We can tinker around the edges, but this will some of the very best in motor sport, materials and so require primary legislation. on. It is also about community involvement, such as I would like to touch on the background. My hon. marshalling, and people getting involved in their area Friend is right to say that motor sport in this country and taking part in a great event. We should not forget has a proud history. At a recent event, which my hon. the circus coming to town. It is a great unifier in parts of Friend attended, I had the honour and privilege to sit the country. next to Nigel Mansell. He is a great hero in our country, who people look up to and aspire to be like. We saw I understand that people have sought this power since what can be done in the grand prix this weekend. I was 1928. If the Government support them, and I hope they proud to be listening to the commentary of a constituent will, it will have been a long time coming. The previous of mine, Anthony Davidson, the former driver. He is Labour Government were supportive and never objected still racing, but not in Formula 1 now. It was good to in any of my discussions with Labour Ministers, but we hear him on the radio. have not finally done the deed. I hope that we will. The First Minister of Scotland has spoken up in support of As my hon. Friend said, looking at the history, it is the change—no doubt eying the potential opportunities not only about winning, but about the teams that put for the forests in Aberdeenshire and the Western Isles. together the technology and about where that technology We cannot take current venues for granted. Forestry is often applied after its use in Formula 1 and the other Commission charges have a prohibitive effect on some types of racing around the world. We talked about disc rallying. The British leg of the world rally series is under brakes and the anti-lock braking system, both of which threat due to some very prohibitive charges. We need to come from Formula 1, and were not used in modern ensure that we are always able to offer alternatives. vehicles before that. The many safety features that have stemmed from Formula 1 have led to this country I hope that the Minister gives us some good news and having the safest roads in the world. realises that the House has been supportive of a change, I am very proud to be the Minister responsible for so it has cross-party support. It is a simple issue and road safety, as well as for motor sport, and to be able to would require bureaucratic measures. It is not a great say in 2011 that we have the safest roads in the world. ideological argument about policy and it is not about We will not be complacent, but will continue to drive imposing our will on different communities. It is about down the number of deaths and serious injuries on our giving power to local authorities, where it suits them, to roads, because 2,222 deaths, by the last count, are too engage with a successful British sport, promote it and many. At the same time, I am proud to represent this allow all those followers of motor sport and cycling up country at road safety meetings I attend around the and down the country to finally get out and race. If they world, where often people want to know how they can cannot afford a Formula 1 car, they can still get out and achieve the same safety record. They look up to our race. record, some of which is due to the excellent education Let us not forget education. We can teach young men work we have done over the years on drink-driving and and women to drive responsibly and learn to drive the wearing of seatbelts—we need to work on drug- high-speed performance cars, while teaching them that driving—but a huge amount of it is down to technology. there is a time for racing and a time for driving on a Many of the safety features in the vehicles we drive on normal road. That will have a lot of benefits. Perhaps the roads today come from racing and the investment we can divert some of the boy racers away from racing made in research and development by the great though my village at 2 am and away from tragic accidents, manufactures of this country. That is particularly true and encourage them to get involved in a motor sport of cars, but also of motor cycles, for which, sadly, the that perhaps becomes more affordable and accessible to safety trends are going in the wrong direction. a lot of them. They could all play a part in it. My hon. Friend is right to touch on the fact that this is a deregulation issue. I am also Minister responsible I look forward to the Minister’s response. I have for deregulation for the Department for Transport, as spoken to him in the past about a change, and the well as being the shipping Minister, the devolution Government have been supportive. It would fit with our Minister, the roads Minister and the roads safety localism agenda, the big society and with rewarding one Minister—I could go on. We are trying to empower of Britain’s great sports and industries. local communities, not just councils, so that they can 143WH Motor Sport (Public Highways)30 MARCH 2011 Motor Sport (Public Highways) 144WH

[Mike Penning] Although I wish it could be a one-clause Bill, some technical issues surround the legislation. My hon. Friend say to their council, “Look, we would like to have some knows, because he has done his homework, that there is sort of event in our patch next year or next week.” It is no point deregulating to allow races to be held when a not all about having Formula 1. That event took place 30 mph speed limit is still in place and so on. The right in Birmingham and it had to go through a complicated of way issue has been touched on, but, sadly, there are process, because every time such an event is proposed, several other issues to consider. In such a positive an Act of Parliament has to be passed to allow it to debate, I do not want to bring up a load of negatives proceed. That may have been right and proper in 1928— about why such races cannot take place, and I have although I doubt it—but it certainly is not right in 2011. asked my officials to consult on how we can do it. That is the reverse of what has happened since 1928. Let us consider some of the events that could take place. My hon. Friend the Member for Wyre and Preston Such an approach will be popular in some areas, but North talked about rallying as well as cars and Formula the road safety community has some proper concerns, 1. When one of my constituents heard that I was and I understand that. All events based around racing responding to this debate, they reminded me that they will be licensed by the MSA, which has a fantastic track want to have kart racing in my constituency on an record in making sure that such events take place efficiently empty industrial estate that has very little traffic at the and safely. If what we are doing is a success—and I am weekend. We are world leaders in karting—in fact, this sure that it will be—the biggest thing I need to convince year’s runner-up in the British karting championship people about is having a structured programme, so that lives in my constituency. We can also consider other one community that agrees early on does not have a things, such as rallying. disproportionate number of events imposed on it. We also need to ensure that the motorist, who predominantly I will speak to my colleagues in other Departments pays for our roads, is not inconvenienced too much. about why we have so much difficulty with regards state That balance is something the Isle of Man has addressed ownership—as is the case with the Forestry Commission, very well. I have been invited to the Isle of Man TT this before it moves into whatever its future capacity will be year but, sadly, family commitments mean that I cannot in terms of charitable status. State ownership is impairing be there. I would have liked to have taken my Triumph investment and competition in the UK. The MSA is not across the water and, if not raced on the circuit, perhaps proposing that our streets are closed down every weekend been pro-enough to drive it, even if I would have been in every town, but we have to make sure that there is somewhat slower than the racers. confidence out there that that will not happen. We are There are some strange legal anomalies regarding world leaders in motor sports and in cycling. Indeed, motor sport. Technically, the London to Brighton rally the cycling world championships have just taken place. is not a race. If it were, we would have to pass an Act of We might not have done as well at those as we did in the Parliament every year so that it can take place in Olympics, but I am sure we will do well in 2012. November. When we are proud of our heritage, that is a We should not create a bureaucratic hold up for such ludicrous situation to be in. I have not discovered why, things; instead, we need to ask how we can empower over the years, subsequent Parliaments of all political local communities to go forward. With that in mind, I persuasions have not dealt with the matter. I use this am today announcing a public consultation on how we terminology all too often, but doing so is a no-brainer. will amend the legislation in which we want as many As long as we have control and are happy that the people as possible to participate, so that we can establish community is the driver for this, why should Government how we can deregulate the matter from central Government hinder such an event? With that in mind, as I say, the bureaucratic control, while ensuring that local communities consultation will last for three months. do not have such things imposed on them. Those involved can perhaps come together in a consortium with the Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): I welcome the MSA, which will issue the licence for any motor sport consultation and congratulate my hon. Friend the Member activity.We are in a very exciting situation. The consultation, for Wyre and Preston North (Mr Wallace) on securing which will last for three months, will proceed from the debate. I am very interested in classic cars. From a today, and I hope that many different people from historical vehicle point of view, will the Minister look at across the motor sport and other racing industries come examples overseas? A great historical vehicle event called forward with innovative ideas. This country is fantastic the grand prix of the ramparts takes place in Angoulême, at innovation, not just in manufacturing but in terms France. Although our villages might not look exactly ideas about how the exciting events that we see around the same as those involved with that race, there are the world can take place in this country. areas where similar events could take place. That would I spoke to former Ministers for transport about the be a great bonus to the historical vehicle owners who matter, who said that they would have liked to have would enjoy such an event. dealt with the issue. I think it was on their agenda towards the end of their Administration. It is not a Mike Penning: My hon. Friend makes a sensible difficult matter, but I have to be honest and say that it point. This is not about one type of vehicle; it could will not get into this year’s legislative programme. By involve any type of vehicle. It would be up to the MSA the time I have finished consulting, we will have to and the local community to decide to go ahead. I have ensure that we do not interfere with local election issues already announced that a consultation will take place or with the associated purdah. I am sure that that will on whether we can remove classic and vintage vehicles not happen because it is not a party political issue; it is up to a certain age group from the MOT test. The MOT simply a case of how we empower local communities to testers do not want to deal with such vehicles because do something that they want to do. they are trying to test modern vehicles. However, under 145WH Motor Sport (Public Highways)30 MARCH 2011 Motor Sport (Public Highways) 146WH law, they have to do an MOT test. I was in a 1911 did last weekend. We were even up for the practice Rolls-Royce the other day that belongs to Lord Montagu. sessions, which I am sure makes us complete anoraks, How on earth could an ordinary MOT station dream of but we were up and so were millions and millions of doing an MOT on such a vehicle? I have had the honour other people. This is not a class issue. This is not about of being invited to drive the Mille Miglia in Italy this the affluent. One of the reasons why the younger chaps year, which I have to do in a British Jaguar XK150. in my constituency tell me that they are always out and about in their go-faster cars is that they do not feel that Karl McCartney: Is there any chance that the Minister they have an outlet. I am not saying that they are bad might need someone to join him and carry his bags guys—they are not. They are just frustrated. They because my name is at the top of that list. would like to have an outlet to give them an opportunity. This measure, especially if it is done properly— Mike Penning: I am afraid that my hon. Friend might have to speak to my wife, who has very kindly allowed Hugh Bayley (in the Chair): Order. There is a Division me to go as long as she is with me. in the House. If the Minister feels that he can finish in On a serious note, the debate has been very useful. I two minutes, I think we could run on. If he wants his pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre full four remaining minutes, we should adjourn. and Preston North for not just for securing the debate, but for being informative before it took place. That Mike Penning: Mr Bayley, I can always take a hint, so meant I had the chance to do my homework and listen in the space of 90 seconds I will sum up. to representations from the MSA and many people in I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre my constituency. I represent one of the most socially and Preston North yet again on securing the debate and deprived wards and one of the most affluent villages, so giving me an opportunity, on behalf of Her Majesty’s there is a good spectrum in terms of the excitement Government, to wipe out, in a short period of time—a about such an event taking place. bit of patience will be needed to get the legislation right—the anomaly that has existed for so many years, Mr Wallace: Does my hon. Friend agree that what is since 1928. I hope that local communities will take the amazing about motor sport is that the supporters are opportunity to work with the MSA as a licensing authority often low profile? It is only when there is an event such to come forward with plans. If they do not, I think as this, that one receives dozens of e-mails from constituents everybody would understand, but I suspect that this will who come out of woodwork and who one never knew be a very popular measure throughout the country. I were keen supporters of the sport. Such people take hope that we can introduce the legislation that will part in club events every weekend. enable local authorities to exercise those controls. Question put and agreed to. Mike Penning: I never cease to be fascinated by how many people get up in the very early hours of the 5.11 pm morning on a weekend to watch Formula 1, like we all Sitting adjourned.

11WS Written Ministerial Statements30 MARCH 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 12WS

which enables innovation, promotes trade and facilitates Written Ministerial fair competition and the protection of consumers, health and the environment. Statements I have set the National Measurement Office the following targets for 2011-12: Wednesday 30 March 2011 Improve performance of the NMS programmes over the corporate plan period. Ensure 93% of meter examiner appointments, manufacturer BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS authorisations/consents and modifications to meter approval and decisions are made within five business days. Achieve 90% of the planned income growth for certification, Companies House calibration and quality management certification. Generate a positive net contribution to consumers, the environment and the low-carbon economy through the activities The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, of the enforcement authority. Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): Ihaveset Reduce administration costs by 14% in cash terms over this Companies House the following targets for the year corporate plan period. 2011-12: These targets will be assessed on the following bases: Public Target New Target Target 1: The use of a scorecard technique across all programmes is being developed for use in 2011-12 to Customer provide a basis for measuring this improvement. Customer Satisfaction (Quarterly) 86% Target 2: This will be measured from the time that all Accounts compliance rate—soft 98% necessary documentation has been received and should Resolve complaints within five days 98% ensure a timely metering service. Service availability of Web filing 99.5% Target 3: The planned income growth is that shown Service availability of WebCHeck and Companies 99.5% in this plan representing the totality of the income House Direct streams expressed. Search customers can access requested documents 98% Target 4: This will be measured by comparing our within 60 seconds cost base against the value of products made compliant, To increase the proportion of transactions that can be 92% filed electronically (by end March 2012) withdrawn from the market or affected by a formal CEO to respond to all letters from MPs delegated to 100% business improvement plan. him to reply within 10 working days of receipt

Process TREASURY Electronic transactions received are available to view 98% on the public record within 72 hours Images placed on Companies House image system are 99.5% legible and complete Carbon Price Floor (Government Response) To achieve an electronic filing target for accounts by 50% year end The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine To achieve an electronic filing target for all transactions 78% apart from accounts by year end Greening): The Government have today published the Reduce carbon emission rating of Companies House 10% Government’s response to the consultation document headquarters building by 10% by end of March 2012 on the carbon price floor. The consultation document “Carbon price floor: support People and certainty for low-carbon investment” set out the Government’s proposal to provide greater support and Average work days lost per person <10 certainty to the price of carbon in the power sector to encourage investment in low-carbon electricity generation. Finance Budget 2011 announced the introduction of a carbon To achieve taking one year with another, a 3.5% 3.5% price floor from 1 April 2013. The floor will start at average rate of return based on the operating surplus around £16 per tonne of carbon dioxide (tCO ) and expressed as a percentage of average net assets 2 follow a linear path to target £30/tCO in 2020 (both in Efficiency—saving on operational costs (year 1 of a 5% 2 new 3-year target)* 2009 prices). The carbon price support rates in 2013-14 Payment of invoices within five days of receipt (new 80% will be equivalent to £4.94/tCO2. target: December 2010) The consultation sought views on how best to implement * This is a new three-year target to achieve by 2013-14 a reduction, in the proposal. A number of issues were raised by respondents real terms, of 15% compared to 2010-11 in the operational monetary throughout the consultation. These are addressed in the cost of the registry per company on the register. Government’s response. The Government intend to introduce legislation for National Measurement Office the proposals in the 2011 Finance Bill (and subsequent secondary legislation) and to bring the proposals into The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David effect from 1 April 2013. Willetts): I have tasked the National Measurement Office Copies of the document have been deposited in the (NMS) to provide policy support to Ministers on Libraries of both Houses and are available on the measurement issues and a measurement infrastructure Treasury website at www.hm-treasury.gov.uk. 13WS Written Ministerial Statements30 MARCH 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 14WS

ECOFIN G20 ministerial meeting in Paris French Finance Minister, Christine Lagarde, informed the Council of the outcome of a G20 meeting of The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): Finance Ministers and central bank governors held on The Economic and Financial Affairs Council was held 18-19 February. The Government believe that the G20 in Brussels on 15 March 2011. The following items were meeting was productive, and it was significant to reach discussed: agreement on a set of indicators for assessing external imbalances that threaten the world economy. Economic Governance The Council agreed a general approach on the package of six legislative proposals aimed at strengthening economic CABINET OFFICE governance in the EU, particularly in the euro area. This agreement respected the provisions in the UK’s Educational Bodies (Oversight as Charities) protocol to the treaty. The UK negotiated a UK opt-out on the articles in the fiscal frameworks directive pertaining to fiscal rules and won a recital making clear that medium-term budgetary objectives referred to in the The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick directive would not apply to the UK. Negotiations with Hurd): The Under-Secretary of State for Education, the the European Parliament will now take place with a Minister responsible for schools, my noble Friend Lord view to finalising legislation by the summer. Hill of Oareford and I are today announcing proposals for the oversight as charities of academies, sixth-form Climate Finance colleges and foundation and voluntary schools. In my Ministers adopted Council conclusions on climate capacity as Minister for civil society, I have day-to-day finance, which welcome and reaffirm the commitments responsibility for the legal framework for charities in on climate finance agreed at the UN negotiations in England and Wales. I believe that the measures I set out December 2010. The Government support these here will continue to ensure the appropriate and effective conclusions. ECOFIN will revisit climate finance following regulation of charities and therefore help maintain public further work by the Commission, Economic and Financial trust and confidence in the charitable sector. The Committee and the Economic Policy Committee. This Department for Education, the Welsh Assembly work will set out the key elements of the mix of international Government and the Cabinet Office have worked closely and national, public and private finance instruments with the Charity Commission to agree these proposals needed to deliver scaled-up financial flows after 2012. and the commission is content for the Secretary of State for Education to fulfil the principal regulator role in Stability and Growth Pact Implementation England, and the Welsh Assembly Government to fulfil Hungarian and Polish Ministers informed the Council the principal regulator role in Wales. of measures they are taking in order to reduce their Under the Academies Act 2010, academy proprietors deficits below 3% of GDP, and an exchange of views will be “exempt” charities. Exempt charities are not followed. The Council called on them to ensure strict registered with, or directly regulated by, the Charity compliance with the recommendations it issued under Commission. Instead the aim is, wherever possible, to the excessive deficit procedure. The Government agree appoint an existing regulator to be their principal regulator, that member states need to have credible deficit reduction with the additional duty of promoting charity law plans in place. compliance. The objective of this approach is to ensure Short Selling and Credit Default Swaps that there is oversight of exempt charities as charities, while shielding them from unnecessary or duplicative The presidency updated Ministers on ongoing work regulation. on the draft regulation on short selling and credit It is proposed that the Secretary of State for Education default swaps. The intention of the regulation is to is appointed to be the principal regulator of academy harmonise short selling requirements across the European proprietors under the Charities Act 2006. It was originally Union and harmonise the powers that regulators may proposed that the Young People’s Learning Agency be use in exceptional situations where there is a serious appointed as the principal regulator as it currently threat to financial stability or market confidence. The undertakes much of the day-to-day work of funding Government’s position is that proposals should not and regulating academies on behalf of the Secretary of impact market efficiency and liquidity, in particular in State. However, following the review of public bodies, relation to sovereign debt. Further work will continue the YPLA will, subject to the will of Parliament, be on this regulation before returning to ECOFIN in May succeeded next year by an Education Funding Agency, for general approach. an Executive agency of the Department for Education. AOB Therefore, it is now considered more appropriate to appoint the Secretary of State for Education as principal Reform of financial regulations regulator, because he has the existing roles of funding The Council took stock of progress in the area of and regulating academies. In practice, the YPLA (and financial services regulation following a presentation its proposed successor the EFA) would carry out much from Commissioner Barnier. The Government are pleased of the necessary information gathering which would with the progress which has been made since the financial then be used to report to and advise the Secretary of crisis. However, it is critical that any proposals going State. This arrangement will not impose any additional forward have a clear evidence base and that thorough, burden on academies or on the YPLA, and academies objective impact assessments are carried out, along will no longer be required to register with the Charity with extensive consultations. Commission. 15WS Written Ministerial Statements30 MARCH 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 16WS

Sixth-form colleges which are charities (there are profession, local government and health sectors and 94 in England) had their exempt status removed by the other partners to design the new framework. I am now Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009. publishing, for initial consultation, our detailed proposals, We propose to re-confer exempt status on them and which are a continuation of the Government’s desire to appoint the Secretary of State for Education as their increase the independence of local public bodies and principal regulator. As the YPLA already regulates the their accountability to local people, while maintaining funding of sixth-form colleges by the Secretary of State, clear accountability, through Ministers, to Parliament. I this is considered to be a more appropriate and have placed a copy of the consultation paper in the proportionate approach to promoting their charity law Library of the House. compliance than requiring them, in addition, to register Our proposals follow a set of design principles: localism with and report to the Charity Commission. This and decentralisation; transparency; lower audit fees; arrangement will not impose any additional burden on and high standards of auditing. We have also been sixth-form colleges or the YPLA. guided by the established principles of public audit, Foundation and voluntary schools (there are over including the independence of public sector auditors 8,100 in England and 175 in Wales) were, until April from the organisations being audited and the wider 2009, exempt charities. They are currently treated as if scope of public audit. they are exempt charities under transitional provisions The new framework mirrors that already in place for which will expire on 31 August 2011. The proposal is to the audit of companies. If audit firms wish to become re-confer exempt status on these governing bodies and statutory local auditors, they will need to fulfil the rules appoint the Secretary of State for Education to be their and arrangements of the professional bodies that are principal regulator in England and the Welsh Assembly designated as “Recognised Supervisory Bodies” by the Government to be principal regulator in Wales. This Financial Reporting Council. They will therefore be was the preferred option on consultation in 2010, and is mainly self-regulated. also considered to be more appropriate and proportionate The overarching issue is how to ensure levels of than requiring them to register with, and report to, the assurance are maintained in the new framework, without Charity Commission in addition to the Department for creating a complex bureaucratic system which places Education or Welsh Assembly Government. Again, the additional costs and burdens on councils. Strong arrangement will not impose any additional burden on accountability to Parliament through accounting officers foundation and voluntary schools. will be retained, while decision making on auditor There are safeguards which we will put in place to appointment’s selection will be decentralised. avoid any potential conflicts of interest and ensure that, The Department of Health is considering the governance as principal regulators, the Secretary of State and the and accountability arrangements for the new health Welsh Assembly Government will be able to maintain landscape and these will help determine the appropriate the integrity of charitable status. There will be memoranda audit arrangements. The local public bodies referred to of understanding between the principal regulators and in the consultation paper do not, therefore, include the Charity Commission setting out their respective local health bodies. However, I will be undertaking a roles, how they will work together and the circumstances further consultation on the arrangements for the audit in which the principal regulator would refer issues to of all local public bodies for which auditors are currently the commission. The appointment of a principal regulator appointed by the Audit Commission, including health does not diminish the commission’s role in preserving bodies, when I publish my draft Audit Bill for pre-legislative public confidence in charities. If a principal regulator scrutiny. The Department of Health will publish a felt that there was a potential conflict of interest, it paper summarising its proposals at the same time. could seek the commission’s advice on handling it. In addition, if the commission felt that a regulator had a conflict of interest, it would raise the issue with the regulator concerned and/or with the Cabinet Office. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Draft secondary legislation to make these changes will be laid before Parliament in due course. Smart Metering

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Charles Hendry): I am pleased to inform the House that the Department of Energy and Future of Local Public Audit Climate Change, with Ofgem, is today publishing the response to the prospectus consultation on the smart metering implementation programme. The Minister for Housing and Local Government (Grant The Government’s vision is for every home in Great Shapps): On 13 August my right hon. Friend the Secretary Britain to have smart energy meters, giving people far of State announced plans to disband the Audit better information about, and control over, their energy Commission, transfer the work of the Commission’s consumption than today. Businesses and public sector in-house practice into the private sector, and refocus users should also have smart or advanced energy metering audit on helping local people hold councils and local suited to their needs. The roll-out of smart meters will public bodies to account for local spending decisions. play an important role in Britain’s transition to a low-carbon Since the announcement, my Department has worked economy, and help us meet some of the long-term closely with other Government Departments, the Audit challenges we face in ensuring an affordable, secure and Commission, the National Audit Office, the accountancy sustainable energy supply. 17WS Written Ministerial Statements30 MARCH 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 18WS

I have deposited copies of “Smart Metering FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Implementation Programme—Response to Prospectus Consultation—Overview Document” and supporting materials in the Libraries of both Houses. Japan Earthquake (Government’s Response) The documents are also available on the Department of Energy and Climate Change website at: http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/consultations/ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth smart_mtr_imp/smart_mtr_imp.aspx Office (Mr Jeremy Browne): I would like to update the House on the Government’s response to the earthquake and tsunami which struck Japan on 11 March, and the consequent events at the Fukushima Dai-Ichi nuclear ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS plant. In doing so, I wish to express our profound sympathy New Waterways Charity to the Japanese Government and people for the appalling loss of life in the disaster, and to pay tribute to the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for courage and resilience of the Japanese people. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): In the immediate aftermath of the disaster we set up On 21 June 2010, Official Report, column 4WS, I made an emergency helpline for those concerned about British a statement about inland waterways policy for England nationals in the affected areas. As of 27 March, we have and Wales. I said that we were considering the appropriate received over 9000 calls to our helpline and can confirm civil society model for British Waterways, including the that some 970 people reported to our missing persons possible inclusion of the Environment Agency’s navigations. hotline have been confirmed safe. There are, to date, no On 14 October, the Government subsequently announced confirmed British fatalities. We continue to work to their intention to move British Waterways in England locate British nationals whom we have been unable to and Wales from being a public corporation to a New contact. There are now a small number about whom we Waterways Charity—subject to parliamentary approval. remain very concerned. We are making every effort to On February 28 I announced that I wished to take a track them down. It is important to stress that in these phased approach to the delivery of my vision for a difficult circumstances, it is likely to take some time for “national trust for the waterways”. In phase 1, the the Japanese authorities formally to identify those who liabilities and assets of British Waterways in England may have lost their lives or been injured and to notify and Wales will transfer into the new charity, alongside next of kin. an “endowment” consisting of the property portfolio Within 48 hours of the earthquake and tsunami, our owned by British Waterways in England and Wales. In ambassador to Japan led the first British team deployed phase 2, the EA navigations would transfer to the new to Sendai, one of the main cities affected. In the following charity, if sufficient funding can be found in the next days, we deployed over 60 specialist consular staff, spending review to enable the charity to take on the drawn from across the FCO’s global network, to north-east liabilities associated with them, and subject to the agreement Japan to provide consular assistance and established a of the charity’s trustees. 24-hour consular response centre in Sendai. Our rapid Today, I am announcing the publication of the deployment teams visited reception centres, hospitals Government’s consultation on the New Waterways Charity, and other locations to trace British nationals. They which is available at: http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/ assisted more than 170 British nationals. consult We reinforced our embassy in Tokyo, which worked This consultation document puts Government’s around the clock on the crisis response including the commitment to localism at the centre of plans for the provision of consular assistance to those in need. We New Waterways Charity. Moving the powers, functions stationed staff at both of Tokyo’s airports, provided and assets of BW to civil society through the creation of consular help at our consulate general in Osaka, and a “national trust for the waterways”will allow stakeholders staffed a temporary desk at Kansai International airport. the opportunity to play a role in the governance of the We continue to provide assistance from our embassy in waterways and to bring their expertise and passion to Tokyo and our consulate in Osaka. the operation of the organisation. The transfer will also In light of the severity of the disaster, the Government promote greater engagement of local communities, leading decided to provide a higher level of consular assistance to a range of enhanced public benefits including amenity, and support for those directly affected. This included green travel to work, health and well-being and support help with transport out of the immediate danger zone, to inner city and rural regeneration. from Sendai to Tokyo, financial support for people who This proposal will also enable the waterways now needed essentials such as food and clothing, telephone owned and run by BW in England and Wales to be calls home and accommodation in Tokyo. This support placed on a more financially sustainable long-term footing. was delivered by the FCO’s consular teams on the The New Waterways Charity will have access to new ground in north-east Japan and Tokyo. We supplemented sources of income from both commercial and private the available commercial capacity with charter flights to sources, including legacies, donations, increased borrowing help those British nationals leave Japan who wished to and fundraising, as well as the chance to grow a volunteer do so. base. The Government are also providing humanitarian This consultation will consider the charity’s scope, assistance to supplement the efforts of the Japanese governance, the charitable constitution, sustainable business Government, and stand ready to do more. A 63-strong model, as well as the process for managing the transition. DFID-organised search and rescue team arrived in The consultation will close on 30 June 2011. Japan on 13 March and made a significant contribution 19WS Written Ministerial Statements30 MARCH 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 20WS to the Japanese recovery operation in the affected area The new right to provide guidance “Making Quality of Ofunato. The UK rescue team and medical advisers Your Business” sets out the Department’s guidelines to worked alongside US rescue workers and together cleared support public sector employees who are thinking about a large industrial district and residential area. The team taking up the right to provide. The guide sets out a returned safely on 19 March. In response to a Japanese process for people working in NHS trusts who have the request, we are providing 100 tonnes of bottled water to right to propose the development of a staff-led enterprise. Mito City in Ibaraki Prefecture, one of the worst affected The right to provide programme will enable staff regions, which is hosting evacuees from Fukushima. We across health and social care to explore setting up have also offered other forms of support to the Japanese staff-led mutuals to take over and run services. It builds Government including nuclear expertise. Through the on the successful right to request scheme for community Department for Energy and Climate Change the British health services, which will see almost 25,000 community nuclear industry has also provided radiological equipment NHS staff set up social enterprises to take over the to assist the Japanese as they work to bring the situation services they provide. Right to provide extends the at the Fukushima nuclear plant under control. opportunities provided by right to request to others Events at the Fukushima Dai-Ichi nuclear plant have working in health and social care. been of serious concern. On Thursday 17 March, we We are committed to the big society approach, making advised British nationals currently in Tokyo and north-east public services answerable to the people that use them. Japan to consider leaving the area. We also joined the Right to provide devolves power to front line staff at a US in advising nationals to remain outside a broader local level who know how things can be done better and 80 km zone around Fukushima. As a precautionary gives them the opportunity to put their ideas into measure, we also began issuing iodine tablets to British practice. Employee ownership, combined with strong nationals from locations in Sendai, Niigata and Tokyo. staff engagement, has demonstrated that it can deliver We are now distributing iodine tablets solely from our successful enterprises in a commercial context; we believe embassy in Tokyo. We have explained the circumstances it can do as well in public service. in which people should take this medicine, who are the priority recipients (children and pregnant and breastfeeding The Department’s Social Enterprise Investment Fund women), and how we will advise people further on this invests via loans and grants in new and existing social if the situation changes. enterprises operating within health and social care. In the last year alone the fund has invested over £40 million The Government chief scientific advisor (CSA) and in social enterprises in the health and social care sector, the Scientific Advisory Group in Emergencies (SAGE) including support for community healthcare services have been engaged in detailed scenario planning for through the transferring community services programme, dealing with the ongoing events and we have contingency and since its launch SEIF has supported over 450 social plans in place. The CSA has briefed the British community enterprises, in Japan three times by telephone conference. Even in a worst case scenario, SAGE’s advice is that the risks to I am pleased to announce the investment of at least human health beyond the exclusion zone set by the £10 million in the SEIF in 2011-12, which will demonstrate Japanese authorities could be managed by precautionary our continuing commitment to support the social enterprise measures, in particular, staying indoors to avoid exposure. sector and new organisations being created through the right to provide. We continue to update our travel advice to advise and inform British nationals in Japan as the situation evolves. The Department’s guidance has been placed in the Library. Copies are available to hon. Members from the We in Britain will continue to do all we can to speed Vote Office and to noble Lords from the Printed Paper Japan’s recovery from the earthquake and tsunami. Office. Europe has made that same pledge. That is why the Government believe that one of our highest priorities must be to invite Japan to enter into a free trade agreement with the EU. At the European Council on JUSTICE 25 March the Prime Minister led calls for the EU to open negotiations for a free trade agreement (FTA) with Japan, subject to Japanese movement on non-tariff Legal Services Board Chairman barriers. An ETA could boost Japan’s trade with the EU by ¤54 billion and EU trade by ¤43 billion and would send a strong signal of EU support for Japan. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): Prior to the enactment of the Legal Services Act 2007 and many of the key provisions contained within it, this House was informed that David HEALTH Edmonds had been appointed inaugural chairman of the Legal Services Board, established under the Act. Right to Provide Initiative The LSB is the over-arching regulator of legal service providers. I am pleased to announce that following consultation The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): with the Lord Chief Justice, David Edmonds has been Today I am formally launching the Department’s guidance reappointed in his role as chairman of the LSB for a to support the Government’s new right to provide initiative second and final term of appointment to commence and can announce that the Government will be investing upon expiry of his current term on the 30 April 2011. at least £10 million through the Social Enterprise Investment His appointment will be for a fixed period of three Fund (SEIF) in 2011-12. years. 21WS Written Ministerial Statements30 MARCH 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 22WS

Bribery Act 2010 The following are the significant impact indicators that have been set by the OPG for the year 2011-12. The percentage of lasting and enduring powers of attorney The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice being registered within 11 weeks. (Mr Kenneth Clarke): The Bribery Act 2010 is an important Upon receipt of an application to register an EPA or piece of legislation which seeks to tackle the scourge of LPA, the OPG will process the application and register bribery in international commerce. the instrument within 11 weeks. This includes the statutory Last year, as part of the preparation for implementation waiting period of six weeks during which people entitled of the Act, we consulted on statutory guidance about to notice can lodge objections to the registration. procedures that commercial organisations can put in The number of case reviews of deputyships. place to reduce their exposure to bribery and understand We will review a proportion of total case load in the Act. The guidance cannot of course change the 2011-12. Case reviews help us to ensure that our supervision substance of the Act, but the consultation did yield a of deputies is operating effectively and in the best large number of practical suggestions for its improvement, interests of the client. some of which I have taken up. The number of visits undertaken. I am now confident that the guidance will prove a As the main means of face-to-face contact with useful tool which will help prevent businesses from customers, visits are a useful tool in assessing how a going to unnecessary lengths to comply with the law, deputyship is operating in practice, and what support and having consulted the Scottish Ministers, I am publishing deputies and clients want to receive from the OPG. it today under section 9 of the Act. Visits also support compliance investigations. The guidance remains centred on six key principles The number of investigations concluded within three and and is intended to assist businesses of all sizes and in six months. any sector or market. In particular it makes it clear that anti-bribery procedures should be proportionate to the When an investigation into the actions of an attorney risk of bribery and to the size and structure of an or a deputy is commenced, timely conclusion is an organisation. I am also publishing a much shorter guidance important safeguard for the client and provides assurance document which summarises the key principles of the to whistleblowers and families that we are acting on guidance and which sets out essential messages about their concerns. the Act. This is designed to be of assistance to smaller Cost-recovery percentage. businesses in particular. OPG operates on a full cost-recovery basis through Both the section 9 guidance published as “The Bribery the fees it charges for services. The full set of indicators Act 2010 Guidance about procedures which relevant is published within the business plan. commercial organisations can put in place to prevent persons associated with them from bribing (section 9 of LEADER OF THE HOUSE the Bribery Act 2010)” and the shorter guide published as “The Bribery Act 2010 Quick start guide” will be Oral Answers to Questions (Order) posted on the Ministry of Justice website today along with a Government response to the consultation. Copies will also be placed in the Libraries of both Houses. The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George In order to allow a period of three months for businesses Young): A revised “order of oral answers to questions” to familiarise themselves with the guidance before the rota has been issued today, to cover the period when the Act comes into force I intend to commence all the House returns following the Easter recess. provisions of the Act that are not yet commenced on It includes the following changes: 1 July 2011. Topical questions have been introduced for the Cabinet The Government have also decided that a conviction Office and the Department for International Development. There will be a seven-minute slot for topical questions within of a commercial organisation under section 7 of the Act their current total allocation of 30 minutes; in respect of a failure to prevent bribery will attract The amount of time allocated to the Deputy Prime Minister discretionary rather than mandatory exclusion from for questions has been increased to 40 minutes and, consequently, public procurement under the UK’s implementation of the length of time allocated for topical questions within this the EU Procurement Directive (Directive 2004/18). The slot has been extended to 20 minutes. There will be an relevant regulations will be amended to reflect this. increase to 20 minutes for questions to the Attorney-General; The implementation of the Bribery Act 2010 will and ensure that the United Kingdom is at the forefront of As a consequence of the changes above, the days on which the battle against bribery, allowing the country to tackle some questions are answered will move. Time allocated to the Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs corruption without being burdensome to legitimate business. has been reduced to 45 minutes. Office of the Public Guardian TRANSPORT The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Departmental Expenditure Limit (2010-11) (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): The Office of the Public Guardian (OPG) supports the Public Guardian in discharging his statutory duties under the Mental Capacity Act 2005. The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip The OPG business plan 2011-12 will be published 1 April Hammond): Subject to parliamentary approval, the 2011. The business plan will be available on the Ministry Department for Transport departmental expenditure of Justice website and copies will be placed in the limit (DEL) for 2010-11 will be amended as set out in Libraries of both Houses. the following table: 23WS Written Ministerial Statements30 MARCH 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 24WS

In June 2009, following earlier work on longer, heavier £’000 vehicles, the Department for Transport commissioned a Change NEW DEL detailed study into the feasibility and impacts of allowing Voted Non- Voted Non- Total the use of longer semi-trailers in GB, within the existing voted voted weight limit of 44 tonnes gross vehicle weight (GVW). Resource -216,000 0 5,725,476 445,810 6,171,286 The primary objective was to establish whether the Of which introduction of these high-volume semi-trailers would Administration 0 0 263,948 2,154 266,102 deliver overall economic, environmental and societal budget benefits or disbenefits. Capital +216,000 0 6,666,423 728,127 7,394,550 Depreciation1 0 0 -802,365 -34,224 -836,589 The study considered two main possibilities: increasing Total 0 11,589,534 1,139,713 12,729,247 the length of a semi-trailer by up to 1 metre, to 14.6 metres in total, or increasing it by up to 2.05 metres. The latter 1Depreciation, which forms part of resource DEL, is excluded from the total DEL, since capital DEL includes capital spending and to include depreciation option would increase the maximum permitted length of those assets would lead to double counting. of a semi-trailer to 15.65 metres, which would provide the same loading length as an existing rigid truck/drawbar The switch between resource and capital expenditure trailer combination. limits is to cover the cost of funding various rail schemes The study also considered the possibility of increasing directly following a review of the Network Rail regulated the overall maximum permitted length of an articulated asset base. lorry to 18.75 metres. This would enable the development and use of tractor units with safer, more aerodynamic, Agency Business Plans frontal designs in addition to high-volume semi-trailers. Based on the findings of the study, the Government believe there is a good case for permitting both an The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport increase of up to 2.05 metres in the length of semi-trailers, (Mike Penning): I am pleased to announce the publication and an increase in the overall permitted length of articulated today of the business plans for the Department for vehicles to 18.75 metres. The existing weight limit of Transport’s agencies—the Highways Agency (HA); the 44 tonnes GVW will remain in force. The consultation Driving Standards Agency (DSA); the Driver and Vehicle will enable the Department to develop a better Licensing Agency (DVLA); the Vehicle Certification understanding of the practical implications on road Agency (VCA) and the Vehicle and Operator Services users generally of such an increase, and to identify Agency (VOSA). proportionate mitigation measures to minimise the risk The business plans set out the services each agency of unintended adverse consequences. Depending on the will deliver and any significant changes they plan to outcome of the consultation, the Government will consider make; the resources they require; and a framework of permitting the operation of high-volume semi-trailers measures by which their performance will be assessed. on a trial basis pending the introduction of the necessary changes to current regulations. This trial could be helpful The business plans will be available electronically on to determine whether or not mitigation measures are agency websites, and copies will be placed in the Libraries required. of both Houses. The consultation will run until 21 June 2011. Copies of the consultation document have been placed in the Semi-trailers Library of the House. Further copies are available on the DFT website at www.dft.gov.uk. Depending on comments received and the Department’s response, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport amendments may be made to regulations. (Mike Penning): The Department for Transport has today published a consultation on a proposal to allow a 2.05 metre increase in the length of semi-trailers and UK Aviation: Sustainable Framework a maximum overall length for articulated heavy goods vehicles of 18.75 metres. The current maximum permitted length of an articulated heavy goods vehicle is 16.5 metres, The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip and the maximum length of semi-trailer compatible Hammond): My Department’s business plan confirmed with that overall limit is 13.6 metres. However, the the coalition Government’s decision not to support new current maximum permitted length for a rigid vehicle/ runways at Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted. It also drawbar trailer combination is already 18.75 metres, so committed the Government to create a sustainable the new proposed maximum length for articulated goods framework for aviation in the UK. This framework will vehicles would not mean longer vehicles than are already replace the previous Administration’s “The Future of circulating on Britain’s roads. Air Transport” White Paper which, while recognising The proposal is based on research findings and an aviation’s economic benefits, failed to take sufficient impact assessment. It would be a relaxation of the account of climate change and the impact of aviation current regulatory requirement on the road haulage on local communities. Today I am publishing a scoping industry. The Government accept the research findings document which aims to define the debate as we develop which show it could have a significant potential net a new long-term policy for UK aviation. benefit to road haulage, as well as wider benefits in The Government are committed to returning the UK terms of reductions in congestion, local air pollution, to sustainable economic growth. Aviation has an important carbon emissions, accidents, noise and infrastructure role to play in delivering that growth. It makes a significant costs. contribution to the UK economy and provides the 25WS Written Ministerial Statements30 MARCH 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 26WS international connectivity this country needs to thrive that the full Galileo programme cannot now be delivered in the highly competitive global economy.This Government within the budget or timescale agreed in 2007. A robust want to see aviation prosper. Aviation should be able to assessment of all options is needed in light of this. The grow, but it must also play its part in delivering our Government consider that the programme should respect environmental goals and protecting the quality of life the 2007 budget by reducing its level of ambition. The of local communities. draft Council conclusions do not prejudice the forthcoming The Government have made clear their commitment negotiations on the next multi-annual financial framework to meeting the challenge of climate change. Today, for the EU and urge the Commission to continue its cost analysis in order to identify options for cost reduction. aviation contributes around 6% of UK CO2 emissions but this share will increase as demand for air transport They go on to underline the Council’s wish that the cost increases and other sectors of the economy reduce their analysis should result in cost savings. Accordingly, I emissions. The scoping document explores the most expect to be able to agree to the conclusions. effective ways of addressing aviation’s environmental The Council will be asked to adopt two decisions in impacts, both global and local, and seeks answers to the area of aviation external relations. questions on both issues. The first is a decision on the signature and provisional The publication of this scoping document represents application of a memorandum of co-operation between the start of a dialogue to give a wide range of stakeholders the Community and the International Civil Aviation an opportunity to contribute to the development of the Organisation (ICAO). I intend to abstain on this proposal policy framework. I expect the views expressed to be as I consider that it is necessary to put down a marker varied, and sometimes difficult to reconcile, but I want that the UK is concerned about the principle of member to move the aviation debate on from the polarisation state sovereignty in international organisations, and which has characterised it in recent years, towards a cautious about any proposals which could have the consensus which balances the benefits that aviation effect of enhancing the role of the EU at the expense of brings with its impacts, both global and local. member states. We will publish a draft policy framework for public The second is a decision authorising the Commission consultation in March 2012, and formally adopt the to negotiate with Switzerland on an amendment to the framework by March 2013. existing air transport agreement. This will further remove barriers to market access on the basis of full application by Switzerland of the EU regulatory framework. The EU Transport Council UK is supportive of the proposed negotiating mandate. The Council may be asked to adopt a position on a The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip decision concerning the accession of the EU to the Hammond): I will attend the first Transport Council of protocol of 2002 to the Athens convention, relating to the Hungarian presidency, which will take place in the carriage of passengers and their luggage by sea, Brussels on 31 March. 1974. A number of issues still need to be resolved. I will report to the House on this matter if it is considered at There will be a progress report and policy debate on the Council. the draft regulation amending Regulation 1406/2002, which established the European Maritime Safety Agency. I will be raising two issues under any other business. The proposed amendment gives the agency several new, The first is the importance of ensuring that the forthcoming largely technical, tasks. In principle, the UK would be review of European air quality legislation takes full able to support the proposals, subject to the Commission account of transport issues. The second is the need to delivering the additional funding required through a make swift progress in delivering an enhanced regulatory programme of reprioritisation of the current EU budget. regime for air cargo security. It is also important for the UK to ensure that the If, as expected, the Commission’s new White Paper extension of the agency’s marine pollution response on transport policy is published before the Council, the capabilities, to cover offshore oil and gas installations, is Commission will give a presentation on it under AOB. at the request of an affected state only, and that any A debate on the White Paper will follow at a later involvement in the analysis of the safety of these Council, when member states have given full consideration installations explicitly excludes activities or requirements to it. Also under AOB, the Commission will report on related to the exploration or exploitation of mineral the follow-up to the volcanic ash crisis of 2010, looking resources by means of a well. at the wider scope of crisis management and EU There will be two agenda items on global navigation methodology. satellite systems (GNSS). There will be a progress report and the Council will Merchant Shipping (Ship-to-Ship Transfers) be asked to reach a general approach on a decision on Regulations 2010 rules for access to the public regulated service (PRS) of the Galileo system. I believe the text to be tabled for general approach addresses the UK’s earlier concerns The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport covering costs, the framework for the manufacture of (Mike Penning): I wish to inform the House of a further PRS receivers and associated material, and security development concerning the Government’s legislation standards. to regulate, ship-to-ship transfers of oil carried as cargo. There will be a policy debate and the Council will be In July-September 2010, a review of the Merchant asked to agree conclusions following the Commission’s Shipping (Ship-to-Ship Transfers) Regulations 2010, recent mid-term review of the European programmes. SI 2010 No. 1228, was conducted in view of concerns The Government are deeply disappointed and concerned expressed about those regulations. 27WS Written Ministerial Statements30 MARCH 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 28WS

The Merchant Shipping (Ship-to-Ship Transfers) of the impact of these regulations on business will take (Amendment) Regulations 2010, SI 2010 No. 1769, time and is unlikely to be completed until May at the delayed the commencement provisions of SI 2010 No. 1228 earliest. for six months (ie. so that the earliest date any of its Accordingly, I am laying before the House a Statutory provisions would come into force was 1 April 2011), to Instrument which will delay the commencement provisions ensure the provisions of SI 2010 No.1228 did not come of SI 2010 No. 1228 for a further six months (until the into force before the completion of the review. next common commencement date, which is 1 October Amending regulations have been drafted, and work is 2011), to ensure that the provisions of SI 2010 No. 1228 in train to ensure that these amending regulations take do not come into force on 1 April in their unamended account of representations made. However, consideration form.

339W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 340W

Urban and Rural Network from 2011; and what Written Answers to opportunities for independent scrutiny of the process there will be; [49481] Questions (2) what review (a) process and (b) criteria her Department plans to use to decide which monitoring stations will be included in future reports to the European Wednesday 30 March 2011 Commission on compliance with the EU limit values for ambient air quality from 2011; and what opportunities for independent scrutiny of the process there will be. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS [49482] Animals: Clones Richard Benyon: A 5-yearly assessment of the Automatic Urban and Rural National air quality monitoring network Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for will be undertaken in 2011 in accordance with the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will make requirements of the Air Quality Directive (AQD) (2008/ it her policy to prohibit the sale of food from cloned 50/EC), as set out in Articles 5, 6 and 7. The directive animals and their descendants; and if she will make a defines the steps to be undertaken in the process and the statement. [49365] criteria on which assessment needs to be based. Once the review has been completed this will define the Mr Paice: Food from cloned animals is currently assessment regime to be used for compliance reporting regulated under the EU Novel Food Regulation and for the next five years. must be approved before it can be marketed. There have Where appropriate, local authorities will be engaged been no applications in any EU member states to authorise in the review. The outcome of the review will be reported food from any cloned animals. as required to the Commission and will be made publically The Food Standards Agency (FSA) and the European available. Food Safety Authority have advised that, for cattle and pigs, current evidence suggests that meat and milk from Biofuels healthy clones or healthy descendants of clones is as safe as that from traditionally bred animals. The Advisory Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Committee on Novel Foods and Processes reached the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what research same conclusion on 25 November 2010. her Department has (a) commissioned and (b) evaluated The Government’s position is that a ban or temporary on the effects of biofuel production on grain costs. suspension on the sale of food from cloned animals and [49452] their descendants would be disproportionate in terms of food safety and animal welfare. Mr Paice: In 2010 DEFRA published a report on the The Government consider that EU welfare legislation causes of the 2007-08 agricultural price spikes, which is sufficient to deal with any welfare issues that may included an annex: “The role of demand for biofuel in arise for the clone or the surrogate dam. the agricultural commodity price spikes of 2007/08”. This report is available at: Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/food/security/price.htm Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what scientific Additionally, in 2008 DEFRA published the report evidence she has assessed on the effects of cloning on “The impact of biofuels on commodity prices”, reviewing animal (a) health and welfare and (b) death rates for the existing research on the impact of biofuels on (i) cloned animals and (ii) surrogate mothers that carry commodity and food prices. This report is available at: them to birth; and if she will make a statement. [49366] http://www.defra.gov.uk/evidence/series/documents/impact- biofuels-commodities.pdf Mr Paice: The Government have assessed the 2009 report by the Commission’s European Food Safety Bovine Tuberculosis: Cattle Authority and its update report published last year, which considered all aspects of animal cloning. The Government recognise the potential welfare concerns Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for highlighted in the 2009 report. However, we consider Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent that EU welfare legislation provides the necessary protection discussions she has had on the spread of bovine tuberculosis to address any welfare issues that may arise for the among cattle; and what proposals she plans to bring clone or the surrogate dam. We also believe that the UK forward to prevent any further such spread. [49446] welfare codes and the breeding industry’s positive attitude towards animal welfare provide a sound basis for the Mr Paice: Tackling bovine TB is a key priority for the future. Government, and Ministers continue to have regular discussions about how to halt the spread of TB amongst Automatic Urban and Rural Network cattle and bring the disease under control. We received a large number of responses to our Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, consultation on a badger control policy, which we are Food and Rural Affairs (1) what review (a) process and considering carefully. We will announce our decision (b) criteria her Department plans to use to decide and publish a comprehensive and balanced bovine TB which monitoring stations will be included in the Automatic eradication programme for England as soon as possible. 341W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 342W

Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Food: Waste Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment she has made of the effectiveness of vaccinating cattle Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, against bovine tuberculosis; and if she will make a Food and Rural Affairs if she will estimate the level of statement. [49580] avoidable food waste in the domestic food supply chain. [49267] Mr Paice: Cattle vaccination is a potential long-term option for helping to control bovine TB and could have Richard Benyon: The Waste and Resources Action benefits in reducing the risk of infection and onward Programme’s (WRAP’s) report, “Waste arisings in the transmission of disease. However, a vaccine cannot supply of food and drink to households”, published in guarantee that all cattle will be fully protected against March 2010, suggested that further work is required to TB and is therefore unlikely ever to be suitable for use as identify the avoidable waste generated in the manufacturing, a sole eradication strategy. In addition, evidence suggests distribution and retail stages. However in this report that without addressing the problem in the badger WRAP estimated that the value of food and drink population, it will not be possible to eradicate TB in waste in supply chains is £5 billion annually. cattle. DEFRA has invested around £18 million into the Horses: Passports development of a cattle vaccine and associated diagnostic tools. There are still significant technical and regulatory Mr Gray: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, challenges to overcome before a cattle vaccine would be Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the answer of 10 available for widespread use. This includes the need to March 2011, Official Report, columns 1218-19W, on change EU legislation. We therefore anticipate that a horse passports, whether the 1.3 million equine passports cattle TB vaccine could not be used in the field before currently issued matches (a) her Department’s and (b) 2015 at the earliest. independent estimates of the UK equine population. [49565]

Carbon Emissions Mr Paice: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave him on 10 March 2011, Official Report, column 1219W. Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for As of 31 December 2010 the National Equine Database Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent (NED) held records for 1,275,317 equine passports discussions (a) she and (b) Ministers in her Department issued in the UK. The British Equestrian Trade have had with their counterparts in (i) the Department Association’s National Equestrian Survey 2005-06 estimated for Energy and Climate Change and (ii) the Department the horse population of Great Britain to be 1.3 million. for Business, Innovation and Skills on the introduction Direct comparisons between the two data sets are not of regulations to require mandatory carbon reporting possible. by businesses by April 2012. [49962] Mr Gray: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the answer of Mr Paice: The Under-Secretary of State for Environment, 10 March 2011, Official Report, columns 1218-19W, on Food and Rural Affairs, my noble Friend (Lord Henley), horse passports, for how long she plans to extend the has had discussions with the Minister of State, Department current contract with National Equine Database (NED) of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker), and Ltd; what plans she has for the future of (a) NED and the Minister for Employment Relations, Consumer and (b) horse passports; and if she will make a statement. Postal Affairs at the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Davey), on the matter of corporate [49575] reporting of greenhouse gas emissions by businesses. Mr Paice: DEFRA is proposing to extend the contractual The Secretary of State has not had discussions with arrangements with the National Equine Database Ltd these Ministers on this issue. by a period of 18 months to allow time for a thorough review of the Government’s requirements in respect of horse passports and associated data. Farmers: Local Enterprise Partnerships London Air Quality Network Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, steps she is taking to encourage farmers to participate Food and Rural Affairs whether the London Air Quality in local enterprise partnerships; and if she will make a Network monitoring stations at (a) Brent (Neasden statement. [49549] Lane), (b) Bexley (Erith), (c) Ealing (Horn Lane) and (d) Lambeth (Bondway Interchange) will meet the criteria Mr Paice: Local Enterprise Partnerships (LEPs) are for the assessment of air quality set out in Annex III of locally-led organisations and it is for them to determine EU Directive 2008/50/EC. [49479] how best to work with local business interests, including representatives of the farming sector. In early engagement Richard Benyon: DEFRA has not carried out a review with some of the newly-formed LEPs, DEFRA officials of whether the air quality monitoring stations the hon. have discussed how they might work with farmers. I Member refers to meet the assessment criteria of Directive would encourage all farmers, in particular through their 2008/50/EC. These monitoring stations belong to the representative groups, to engage with LEPs and we are local authorities and are used for the purposes of local aware that some are already doing so. air quality management. 343W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 344W

Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, A target for recycling vehicles applies under the End- Food and Rural Affairs what annual mean concentration of-Life Vehicles (Producer Responsibility) Regulations of PM10 particulates (a) before and (b) after adjustment 2005, which is currently set at 85%, and due to rise to for natural sources her Department’s time extension 95% from 2015. Last year, a new facility was opened in reapplication in May 2010 predicts for the calendar year Worksop processing the plastic content of automotive 2011 at the London Air Quality Network monitoring shredder residue with the help of a £1 million grant for stations at (i) Brent (Neasden Lane), (ii) Bexley (Erith), business investment. (iii) Ealing (Horn Lane) and (iv) Lambeth (Bondway DEFRA has developed the Windows Sustainability Interchange). [49480] Action Plan which contains a target for the collection and recycling of PVC in the Construction sector. The Richard Benyon: The UK’s ‘time extension’ notification Site Waste Management Plans Regulations (2008) and was made in accordance with the assessment criteria in the Waste and Resources Action Programme’s ‘Halving annex III of the directive 2008/50/EC. The four London Waste to Landfill’ commitment have helped to encourage Air Quality Network monitoring stations referred to—Brent waste prevention and recycling in the construction industry. (Neasden Lane), Bexley (Erith), Ealing (Horn Lane) In 2009 24% of all plastic packaging was recycled but and Lambeth (Bondway interchange)—are not part of more needs to be done to increase this rate. Much of the UK’s national compliance network and therefore no this material is valuable and there are a range of end calculations with respect to natural sources have been markets for it. The current review of waste policy is undertaken for data from these monitoring stations by looking at what steps should be taken to further encourage DEFRA. the recycling of plastic.

Modulation Payments Waste Management

Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what Food and Rural Affairs whether she has made an assessment estimate she has made of the proportion of modulation of the contribution of more effective management of payments collected in the UK which were spent in the food waste to reducing water use in each of the last four UK in the latest period for which figures are available; years. [49429] and if she will make a statement. [49552] Richard Benyon: The Waste and Resources Action Mr Paice: The table shows the proportion of compulsory programme has recently published a report, produced modulation payments collected and spent in the UK. jointly with the World Wildlife Fund, entitled “’The Compulsory modulation applies across EU15 member Water and Carbon Footprint of Household Food and states and its allocation is subject to an allocation key Drink Waste in the UK”. This report finds that the which ensures that at least 80% of the receipts are water footprint of avoidable food waste in the UK is allocated to the member state in which it is collected. 6,200 million cubic metres per year, representing nearly The table shows the amount of compulsory modulation 6% of the UK’s water requirements. In per capita terms, deducted from UK direct payments between 2009 and this is 243 litres per person per day, approximately one 2012 and the corresponding amounts allocated to rural and a half times the daily average household water use development programmes. in the UK. A quarter of this water footprint represents water Voluntary modulation applies only in the UK, and all used to grow and process food here in the UK, i.e. water receipts are allocated to the programme for the region from the UK’s rivers, lakes and aquifers. The report of the UK in which the voluntary modulation is collected. includes case studies that illustrate the water footprint of three food products (wheat, tomatoes and beef) and 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 two countries from which the UK imports food (Spain Modulation (¤ million) 238.3 271.0 304.7 338.1 and Brazil). By preventing food waste from arising, Allocation (¤ million) 204.1 236.9 270.6 304 these water-impacts can be avoided. Percentage retained 86 87 89 90 Notes: 1. Over the period the UK retains 88% of its modulated funds, which is above the minimum threshold that requires at least 80% of modulated funds to remain with the member state in which they were generated. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS 2. The calculations are made with a lag of one year to reflect the fact modulated funds are allocated to rural development programmes the Beer: Competition year after they are modulated.

Recycling: Plastics Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will take steps to promote (a) employment and (b) economic growth in Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for the brewing and public house sector. [49471] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps she is taking to encourage the recycling of plastics. [49532] Mr Prisk: The Government are supporting employment and growth in business generally and manufacturing in Richard Benyon: The majority of plastic waste is particular, including the brewing industry, by introducing generated in three areas: End-of-Life Vehicles, Construction more predictable and lower corporate taxes; cutting and Packaging. through the unnecessary red tape and regulation; increasing 345W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 346W access to finance; and focusing on training and Mr Davey: During the period May to September apprenticeships to ensure specialist skills are in good 2010 the Department spent £7,638.50 (exclusive of VAT) supply. with our foliage suppliers, contracts which originally The brewing industry, like other business sectors, will started in September 2003. The Department ended its benefit from a package of measures announced as part foliage contracts with effect from 30 September 2010. of Budget 2011 to promote growth in manufacturing, During the 2009-10 financial year, spend was as such as changes to capital allowances; helping firms follows: commercialise technology; the development of a new degree-equivalent Higher Level Apprenticeship; and nine £ new university based centres for Innovative Manufacturing. Plantforce 20,511.53 The public house sector will also benefit from government PHS 1,350 support that offers practical help on those issues that Fleurtations 3,308.60 concern all businesses, such as taxation, regulation, and access to finance and on the challenges facing small businesses in particular, such as planning, business rates Departmental Public Bodies and access to broadband.

Business: Regulation Tessa Jowell: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what estimate his Department has made of the level of savings which will accrue from Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, the change in function of the British Hallmarking Council; Innovation and Skills whether there is a time limit [48742] within which Government Departments must identify a regulation for removal following the introduction of a (2) what estimate his Department has made of the new regulation under the one-in, one-out rule. [49462] level of savings which will accrue from the abolition of the Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment Advisory Body; [48743] Mr Prisk: One-in, one-out is measured on the net cost to business flowing from regulations, not on the (3) what estimate his Department has made of the number of regulations. The identification of ins and level of savings which will accrue from the abolition of outs happens in parallel across Government. Outs must the Union Modernisation Fund Supervisory Board; be a sufficient reduction in net cost to business to [48744] counter any new net cost to business created by the in. (4) what estimate his Department has made of the These figures need to be sufficient and accurate at the level of savings which will accrue from the abolition of point of the final impact assessment for the in to ensure the Strategic Advisory Board for Intellectual Property; that the net costs to business from the in are fully offset [48745] by the proposed out. (5) what estimate his Department has made of the Departments are allowed to ‘bank’ any reduction in level of savings which will accrue from the abolition of the net cost to business from outs that are identified and SITPRO Ltd; [48746] implemented but which have not yet been used to (6) what estimate his Department has made of the compensate for an in. level of savings which will accrue from the abolition of the eight Regional Development Agencies; [48747] Pauline Latham: To ask the Secretary of State for (7) what estimate his Department has made of the Business, Innovation and Skills on how many occasions level of savings which will accrue from the abolition of his Department has consulted representatives of small the National Endowment for Science, Technology and and medium-sized businesses in Mid Derbyshire the Arts; [48748] constituency on the effects of proposed new regulations since his appointment. [49769] (8) what estimate his Department has made of the level of savings which will accrue from the abolition of Mr Prisk: The Department for Business, Innovation the Local Better Regulations Office; [48749] and Skills (BIS) has launched 34 written consultations (9) what estimate his Department has made of the since May 2010. These are available for viewing on the level of savings which will accrue from the abolition of Department’s internet site at: the Hearing Aid Council; [48750] http://www.bis.gov.uk/Consultations (10) what estimate his Department has made of the BIS seeks views on these from businesses from all level of savings which will accrue from the abolition of regions and of all sizes, including those of small businesses. the Copyright Tribunal; [48751] The specific information requested is not held centrally, (11) what estimate his Department has made of the and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. level of savings which will accrue from the abolition of Consumer Focus; [48752] Departmental Plants (12) what estimate his Department has made of the level of savings which will accrue from the abolition of Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for British Shipbuilders; [48753] Business, Innovation and Skills how much his Department (13) what estimate his Department has made of the has spent on indoor and outdoor plants and trees since level of savings which will accrue from the abolition of his appointment. [48430] British Nuclear Fuels Limited; [48754] 347W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 348W

(14) what estimate his Department has made of the We estimate that annual savings from the merger of level of savings which will accrue from the abolition of the Competition Commission and the competition functions the Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industries Arbitration of the Office of Fair Trading would be between £3.5 million Tribunal; [48755] and £6.8 million, with a best estimate of £5.1 million, (15) what estimate his Department has made of the but that there would be a one-off transitional cost for level of savings which will accrue from the merging of which our best estimate is £6.8 million. Postcomm and Ofcom; [48759] We intend to change the status of the National (16) what estimate his Department has made of the Endowment for Science, Technology and the Arts so it level of savings which will accrue from the merging of is no longer a non-departmental public body, and establish the Competition Commission and the Office of Fair it as an independent charity. While financial savings Trading; [48760] were not the driver for this change in status, it is likely to (17) what estimate his Department has made of the lead to some savings, though they have not yet been level of savings which will accrue from the merging of quantified. the Central Arbitration Committee and the Certification We are considering changing the status of the Copyright Office. [48761] Tribunal so that it is no longer a non-departmental public body, and jurisdiction of the tribunal is moved Mr Willetts: On 16 March 2011, Official Report, into the Ministry of Justice’s Tribunals Service. Any columns 9-10WS, the Minister for the Cabinet Office potential savings have not yet been quantified. and Paymaster General, my right hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (Mr Maude), issued a written ministerial statement updating Parliament on progress on public Departmental Theft bodies reform. That statement also announced that Departments estimate cumulative administrative savings Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for of at least £2.6 billion will flow from public bodies over Business, Innovation and Skills what items with a value the spending review period. of over £100 have been taken without authorisation The following table sets out estimated cumulative net from his Department since his appointment; and what administrative savings from structural reforms to BIS’s steps have been taken to recover such items. [48450] public bodies over the spending review period. These are our best current estimates of net administrative Mr Davey: During the period May 2010 to March savings and are dependent upon factors such as the 2011 the Department’s records show that four prints individual timetables for implementation—many of which were reported as lost or stolen with an estimated total require the Public Bodies Bill and subsequent secondary value of £5,500. After investigation three prints with an legislation. estimated value of £4,000 were recovered.

Estimated cumulative net Diamond Resorts International administrative savings over Public body reform the spending review period Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Change in function of the British £48,000 Business, Innovation and Skills how many representations Hallmarking Council the Secretary of State has received from hon. and right Abolition of the Waste Electrical and £40,000 hon. Members in the last three years on the operation Electronic Equipment Advisory Body of Diamond Resorts International; and what the purpose Abolition of the Union No savings to the Exchequer was of each such representation. [49494] Modernisation Fund Supervisory Board Abolition of the Strategic Advisory No savings to the Exchequer Mr Davey [holding answer 28 March 2011]: The Board for Intellectual Property Department has received 20 representations from hon. Abolition of SITPRO Ltd £1.9 million Members since the beginning of 2008. Correspondents Abolition of eight regional £727.7 million have sought to draw the Government’s attention to, and development agencies to seek help or advice in respect of timeshare contracts Abolition of the Local Better £560,000 which their constituents have entered into, and the way Regulation Office in which Diamond Resorts International seek to enforce Abolition of the Hearing Aid Council No savings to the Exchequer them. Abolition of Consumer Focus Potential savings not yet quantified Employment Rights Abolition of British Shipbuilders £52,000 Abolition of British Nuclear Fuels No savings to the Exchequer Limited Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Abolition of the Aircraft and No savings to the Exchequer Innovation and Skills how many people worked on the Shipbuilding Industries Arbitration enforcement of employment rights and related protections Tribunal in the Employment Agency Standards Inspectorate in Merger of Postcomm and Ofcom Potential savings not yet each of the last five years; how many people he expects quantified to work on such matters in that body in each of the next Merger of the Central Arbitration £650,0001 three years; and if he will make a statement. [47434] Committee and the Certification Office Mr Davey: The number of staff working on enforcement 1 We do not expect the overall budget for the new organisation to change In real cash terms over the SR period. The savings identified of employment rights and related protection in the above reflect static cash spend when measured against estimated Employment Agency Standards Inspectorate, on 1 April inflation. for each of the last five years, were: 349W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 350W

adult and community learning (IACL) is also currently Staff underway, with implementation of any changes beginning 2006-07 19 in the 12/13 academic year. 2007-08 19 2008-09 19 John Cryer: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, 2009-10 30 Innovation and Skills how many people in receipt of 2010-11 28 (a) housing benefit, (b) working tax credit, (c) income support, (d) council tax credit and (e) pension credit No formal allocations have been made for the next are enrolled in English for Speakers of Other Languages financial year or beyond. courses with (i) full and (ii) partial fee remission provided by his Department. [49520] Training: English Language Mr Hayes: We collect information on learners who John Cryer: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, receive full fee remission for any government funded Innovation and Skills (1) how much his Department learning they undertake. We do not collect information allocated for English for Speakers of Other Languages on learners who have received partial fee remission. courses in 2010-11; and how much it plans to allocate in From this data, we can identify learners who have 2011-12; [49519] received full fee remission due to being in receipt of (2) what assessment he has made of the potential working tax credit, income-based state benefits and effect of changes in funding for English for Speakers of pension guarantee credit. Information for those in receipt Other Languages courses on adult and community of housing benefit, income support and council tax learning; [49521] credit is not directly recorded in the system. (3) what assessment his Department has made of the From this data we can provide some information on effect of financial barriers on participation in English learners in receipt of a range of benefits but this should for Speakers of Other Languages courses; [49522] be used with caution given it neither provides an accurate (4) whether his Department has undertaken an picture about the level of learners who are also benefit equality impact assessment on proposed changes to claimants nor what other learning and or benefit funding for English for Speakers of Other Languages entitlements that person might also have. courses. [49523] Table 1 as follows shows the number of adults participating on an English for Speakers of Other Mr Hayes: In the 2010-11 academic year we introduced Languages (ESOL) course who received full fee remission increased freedoms for Further Education colleges and due to being in receipt of working tax credit, income-based training organisations giving them increased flexibilities state benefit and pension guarantee credit. Data are to determine the balance and mix of the provision they shown for 2009/10, the latest year for which full-year offer and the route through which this is delivered. data are available. Building on this, Investing in Skills for Sustainable Table 1: Number of adults participating on ESOL courses who were in Growth (November 2010) confirmed that from the 2011/12 receipt of full fee-remission due to being in receipt of working tax academic year there will be a single adult skills budget. credit, income-based state benefit and pension guarantee credit This allocation can be used to support the delivery of 2009/10 (near-final data) English for Speakers of Other Languages (ESOL) provision, Total but there is no separate allocation of funding for ESOL. In receipt of working tax credit 27,490 As part of the spending review tough decisions about In receipt of an income-based 36,290 departmental budgets have been taken and, like all state benefit other areas, FE has made its contribution. This has In receipt of pension guarantee 1,330 included reviewing the extent to which automatic fee credit remission for adult skills is provided, and in this context Notes: we have prioritised ESOL funding to unemployed people 1. This data covers participation in Learner Responsive, in receipt of jobseekers allowance or in the employment Apprenticeships, Train to Gain, Adult Safeguarded Learning and University for Industry provision. Further Education/Learner and support allowance (work-related activity) group, Responsive provision includes General Further Education Colleges where English language skills have been identified as a including Tertiary, Sixth Form Colleges—Agricultural and barrier to entering employment. We will continue to pay Horticultural Colleges and Art and Design Colleges, Specialist 50% of ESOL course fees for other people who are Colleges and External Institutions. settled here. We will no longer fund ESOL courses 2. Volumes are rounded to the nearest 10. 3. Figures for 2008/09 onwards are not directly comparable to earlier delivered in the workplace. Increased freedoms and years as the introduction of demand led funding has changed how flexibilities for providers will allow them to respond to data is collected and how funded learners are defined. More the needs to their communities and determine within information on demand led funding is available at: their funding where this is prioritised. http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/datadictionary/businessdefinitions/ Demand+Led+Funding.htm The equality impact assessment published alongside Source: Skills for Sustainable Growth (November 2010) found Individualised Learner Record that, at the aggregate level, there are unlikely to be disproportionate impacts on protected groups. A separate Information on participation on ESOL courses is assessment of how the changes may affect ESOL learners published in a quarterly statistical first release (SFR). is currently being carried out by my Department, and I The latest SFR was published on 27 January 2010: expect to be able to publish the assessment in due http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ course. A review of informal, mainly unaccredited, statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current 351W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 352W

TRANSPORT responsible to him to other bodies since 11 May 2010; (a) from and (b) to whom the functions and responsibilities Coastguards: Scotland were transferred in each case; and what transfer of funds was made in each case. [46474] Fiona O’Donnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what requirements have been put in place in Norman Baker: There have been no functions and respect of lone working at (a) Fife Ness coastguard responsibilities transferred from the Department for station and (b) other coastguard stations in Scotland. Transport and its non-departmental public bodies since [49714] 11 May 2010.

Mike Penning: There is no expectation that staff Great Western Railway: Electrification working at a maritime rescue co-ordination centre will be in a situation where lone working is necessary. Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether he plans to take steps to increase line Fiona O’Donnell: To ask the Secretary of State for speeds on rail services between Swansea and Cardiff. Transport how many vacancies there are for watchmen [45223] at Fife Ness coastguard station. [49715] Mrs Villiers: The route between Cardiff and Swansea Mike Penning: As of 28 March 2011 there are six contains various characteristics which impact on journey vacancies at the Forth Maritime Rescue Co-ordination times, including a number of curves, gradients and low Centre; two are for coastguard watch assistants, three speed junctions. Many of these would be difficult to for watch officers and one for a watch manager. address without major engineering work. There are no plans for such work to be carried out in the current Commission for Integrated Transport control period which ends in 2014. However, the electrification of the Great Western Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Main Line and the delivery of the new train fleet will what (a) costs will be incurred and (b) savings will be reduce journey times for passengers between Swansea made from abolishing the Commission for Integrated and London by 20 minutes to two hours and 39 minutes Transport in (i) 2010-11, (ii) 2011-12, (iii) 2012-13, (iv) from the end of 2017. 2013-14 and (v) 2014-15. [46485] This journey time saving will benefit passengers in Swansea and enhance the attractiveness of the area for Norman Baker: The exact costs and savings from inward investment. abolishing the Commission for Integrated Transport (CfIT) will depend on the nature of the successor Heathrow Airport: Railways arrangements which are developed. We currently estimate that the abolition of CfIT will result in projected savings Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for over the spending review period (2011-12 to 2014-15) of Transport whether he has considered the merits of around £3.9 million from net administration savings, including a direct link to Heathrow airport in Stage 1 of compared with the baseline of the last full year of CfIT the proposed High Speed 2 scheme. [49707] in 2009-10. Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 29 March 2011]: Departmental Public Bodies The report provided to Government by HS2 Ltd on options for a direct link to Heathrow considered the Tessa Jowell: To ask the Secretary of State for case for such a link both as part of an initial London-West Transport what estimate his Department has made of Midlands line and as part of a Y-shaped national high the level of savings which will accrue from the abolition speed rail network. This report is available online at: of Cycling England. [48687] http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http:// www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/proposedroute/ Norman Baker: On 16 March 2011, Official Report, routesupplement/pdf/routesupplement.pdf columns 9-10WS, the Minister for the Cabinet Office The Government’s proposed strategy is set out in the and Paymaster General, my right hon. Friend the Member consultation document, High Speed Rail: Investing in for Horsham (Mr Maude), issued a written ministerial Britain’s Future, available on the HS2 consultation statement updating Parliament on progress on public website at: bodies reform. That statement also announced that http://highspeedrail.dft.gov.uk/library/documents/ departments estimate cumulative administrative savings consultation-document of at least £2.6 billion will flow from public bodies over the spending review period. High Speed Two I refer the right hon. Member to my answer of 28 March 2011, Official Report, column 86W. This is Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for our best current estimate of the level of savings which Transport on what basis households and businesses will accrue from the abolition of Cycling England. along the proposed High Speed 2 route were selected to receive a letter from HS2 Ltd notifying them of Departmental Responsibilities forthcoming roadshows. [49925]

Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Mr Philip Hammond: HS2 Ltd posted letters to residents what functions and responsibilities have been transferred and businesses within 1 km either side of the proposed from his Department and the non-departmental bodies line of route and within 250 metres either side of the 353W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 354W proposed tunnels. Letters were sent to all of the households Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 29 March 2011]: and businesses in post code areas intersected by these As of 25 March 2011, HS2 Ltd had 28 permanent ‘corridors’ around the proposed route. members of staff. A further 27 people were seconded to HS2 Ltd, including 18 from the Department for Transport. Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for In addition, HS2 Ltd had 21 people on temporary Transport how many households along the High contracts. Speed 2 route were sent a letter by HS2 Ltd dated Roles occupied by the above include route engineers, 2 March 2011 in respect of roadshows. [49924] operations specialists, project and programme planners, economists, communications and consultation officers, Mr Philip Hammond: HS2 Ltd sent letters to 172,174 environmental specialists and support staff in finance, households and business premises. human resources and administration. The remuneration of the chief executive is published Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for on the DfT website as part of the Government’s Transport what the cost to his Department was of (a) transparency agenda and can be found at the following printing the High Speed 2 (HS2) personalised envelopes link: sent to households along the proposed HS2 scheme http://www.dft.gov.uk/about/staff/salarydisclosure/ route, (b) printing the letters sent to households along the HS2 scheme route and (c) postage for the letters Permanent members of staff are remunerated on sent to households along the HS2 route in order to salary scales that were established on the basis of an notify inhabitants of the forthcoming roadshows. independently conducted market survey. In addition to [49927] salary, employees may opt to join a stakeholder pension scheme in which HS2 Ltd matches employee contributions Mr Philip Hammond: The information requested is as up to a maximum of 5%. follows: Secondees are remunerated on the basis of their host The cost of printing 172,174 envelopes was £4,470; organisation structures. The cost of printing 172,174 letters was £4,403; Temporary staff are remunerated by their respective The cost of posting 172,174 letters was £28,716.54 agencies on rates that are established through central Government procurement contracts. High Speed Two: Costs Members: Correspondence

Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Amber Rudd: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what recent estimate he has made of the projected costs when he plans to reply to the letter of 9 February 2011 the Government will incur on the High Speed Two from the hon. Member for Hastings and Rye on the programme in each of the next five years. [49935] Hastings to Bexhill link road. [44854]

Mr Philip Hammond: The ‘Economic Case for HS2’, Norman Baker [holding answer 7 March 2011]: I can available on the HS2 consultation website, sets out the confirm that my response to your letter dated 9 February Government’s estimates of the overall costs of both its 2011 was dispatched on 25 March 2011. proposed Y-shaped high speed rail network, and the Network Rail: Contracts proposed initial London-west midlands phase. For the four years from 2011-12 to 2014-15, the Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport spending review settlement includes approximately £773 what estimate has been made of the savings Network million to fund the development of the Government’s Rail will make as a result of widening the pool of proposals for a high speed rail network from London to suppliers involved in infrastructure work in (a) 2010-11, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds. (b) 2011-12, (c) 2012-13, (d) 2013-14 and (e) 2014-15. Subject to the outcome of the current consultation, [46650] annual expenditure over the spending review period is currently estimated to be as follows: Mrs Villiers: Network Rail is tasked to deliver the value for money needed to meet the output and efficiency £ million targets for the operation, maintenance and renewal of the national network set by the independent Office of 2011-12 166 Rail Regulation. 2012-13 213 2013-14 140 The contractual arrangements for infrastructure work 2014-15 255 on the railway are commercial matters between Network Rail and the infrastructure companies. The hon. Member Expenditure in years of 2014-15 will be dependent on should contact Network Rail’s chief executive at the the results of future spending reviews. following address for a response to her question: David Higgins High Speed Two: Manpower Chief Executive Network Rail Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for Kings Place Transport how many people are employed by HS2 Ltd; 90 York Way what roles they undertake; and what remuneration they London receive. [49710] N1 9AG. 355W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 356W

Railways Thameslink Railway Line: Finance

Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Transport what steps he has taken to ensure that the what financial provisions his Department has made for High Speed Rail consultation roadshow locations are private finance initiative contracts for Thameslink for held (a) in accessible venues and (b) at times of the the period after 2014-15; and what proportion this day likely to maximise public participation. [49926] constitutes of his Department’s provision for private finance initiative projects in that period. [46496]

Mr Philip Hammond: HS2 Ltd carefully considered Mrs Villiers: Provision has been made within the the placement of events along and around the proposed Department for Transport’s forward forecasts for delivery line of route; 30 events are being held over 40 days, of the full 24 train per hour railway, including the specifically including areas where HS2 Ltd was aware of leasing of up to 1,200 new rail vehicles. significant interest in the proposals. Ease of accessibility from the surrounding areas was prioritised, so that the Thameslink is not classified as part of the private events could be attended by as wide a community as finance initiative. Network Rail is constructing the possible. Event locations were discussed and agreed infrastructure and the Department is procuring rolling with local councils. stock through a form of leasing arrangement. HS2 Ltd has organised two types of event, according Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport to the location and locally available facilities. Exhibitions what his Department’s budget for Thameslink is for are being held in areas with a large catchment area and each year from 2010-11 to 2014-15. [46497] where an adequately sized venue was available. Smaller trailer exhibitions are being held where it is not physically Mrs Villiers: The costs for the infrastructure element possible to hold an exhibition, or where there is likely to of the Thameslink Programme are included in the payments be a lower level of attendance. This aims to provide made to Network Rail in the form of a Network Grant reasonable equality of access to information between which covers the capital investment of all renewals and urban and rural locations. enhancements. To ensure that the road shows are available to a wide With respect to the Department’s direct programme range of people with different work schedules and costs and incremental franchise change costs for commitments, they are opening for 12 hours on weekdays, Thameslink, financial provision has been made as shown beginning at 8 am and closing at 8 pm. At weekends in the following table. road shows will be open between 9 am and 5 pm. £ million Railways: Fees and Charges 2010-11 70 2011-12 84 Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport 2012-13 62 (1) what estimate he has made of the potential savings 2013-14 107 to the public purse from allowing train operating companies 2014-15 111 to have flexible regulated rail fares; [47120] (2) what financial saving there will be to his Department from allowing train operating companies to have flexible regulated rail fares in each year from 2010-11 to 2014-15. JUSTICE [46498] Fraud: Jobseeker’s Allowance Mrs Villiers: The previous Government decided to remove the 5% flexibility for one year. The underlying Pamela Nash: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice contracts are unchanged. Reversion to the normal how many people resident in Airdrie and Shotts arrangements does not therefore involve a saving to the constituency were prosecuted for offences relating to Government. fraudulent claims for jobseeker’s allowance in each of the last three years. [48823] Railways: Rolling Stock Chris Grayling: I have been asked to reply. Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport The information requested is not available, as to what financial provision his Department has made for obtain it would incur disproportionate cost. the cost of the private finance initiative project for Prosecutions in Scotland are the responsibility of the Intercity Express Programme trains in (a) 2010-11, (b) Procurator Fiscal, and data are not collated centrally. 2011-12, (c) 2012-13, (d) 2013-14 and (e) 2014-15. [46333] Discrimination

Mrs Villiers: The costs of the payments made to Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) Agility Trains under the Intercity Express Programme if he will estimate the costs incurred by the courts in the for all of those years will be zero. Payments will only be pursuit of separate actions in cases before tribunals or made to the train service provider once the trains have courts where the same litigant raised issues of discrimination entered revenue-earning service, from 2016. against another litigant on any two of the grounds of 357W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 358W

(a) gender, (b) race, (c) nationality, (d) sexual orientation, In the employment context, where a person feels they (e) religious belief and (f) disability in each of the last have experienced discrimination due to more than one four years; [49731] protected characteristic, they may submit an employment (2) in how many cases before tribunals or courts the tribunal claim which contains more than one jurisdictional same litigant raised issues of discrimination against complaint, for example a claim for sex and race another litigant on any two of the grounds of (a) discrimination. There is no restriction to the number of gender, (b) race, (c) nationality, (d) sexual orientation, jurisdictional complaints that can be included in the (e) religious belief and (f) disability in each of the last claim; however, where a claim does contain more than four years. [49796] one jurisdictional complaint, although treated as individual complaints, they tend to be heard together by one Mr Djanogly: Under the Equality Act 2010, the term tribunal panel. ‘protected characteristic’ is used to describe one or No calculation of the average cost of Employment more of the following characteristics: age, disability, Tribunal appeals is available because of the significant gender reassignment, marriage/civil partnership, variations which occur in the duration of hearings pregnancy/paternity, race (which includes nationality), within jurisdictions and individual cases, and the consequent religion or belief, sex or sexual orientation. An individual difficulty in producing an accurate overall figure. For who thinks he or she has been discriminated against on this reason it is not possible to provide a reliable estimate the basis of a protected characteristic may bring a claim of the additional costs incurred in cases involving more to a court or employment tribunal, depending on the than one issue of discrimination. nature of the claim. The following table sets out the number of cases Information on claims made to the civil courts in submitted to employment tribunals that include England and Wales about discrimination is not collated discrimination complaints under two or more of the centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate protected characteristics listed in the question for each cost. in the last four completed financial years.

Number of cases with multiple discrimination jurisdictions1 Number of multiple discrimination jurisdictions2 Financial year Two jurisdictions Three jurisdictions Four jurisdictions Five jurisdictions Total

2006-07 1,600 180 22 7 1,800 2007-08 1,700 220 22 28 1,900 2008-09 2,000 270 27 37 2,300 2009-10 2,200 340 31 9 2,500 Total 7,400 1,000 100 81 8,600 1 The jurisdictions asked about and included in the reported data are: Gender; Race (including nationality); Sexual Orientation; Religious Belief; Disability. 2 Each figure in the table is rounded independently and thus may not add to totals. The following conventions have been used: Values less than 100 remain as unit values; Values from 100 to 999 are rounded to the nearest ten; Values of 1,000 and over are rounded to the nearest hundred. Source: ET Central database March 2011

Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice if Mr Djanogly: The Legal Services Commission (LSC) he will estimate the likely effect of not implementing the is responsible for administering the legal aid scheme in dual discrimination provisions of the Equality Act 2010 England and Wales. The LSC does not record the on the number of separate claims for discrimination number of people who receive legal aid, but instead before tribunals or courts in each of the next four years. records the number of ‘acts of assistance’. One individual [49811] may receive a number of separate acts of assistance, and one act of assistance can help more than one person. Mr Djanogly: The Government do not expect that We are re-examining the data in respect of all of the there will be any direct impact on the number of separate constituencies and I will write separately with this (single-characteristic) claims flowing from the non- information. implementation of the Equality Act’s dual discrimination provisions. WOMEN AND EQUALITIES Legal Aid: West Midlands Convention on Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women Emma Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many people in (a) Wolverhampton North Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Minister for Women East constituency and (b) the West Midlands received and Equalities who will be responsible for preparing the legal aid in each of the last five years. [49758] UK’s seventh periodic report under Article 18 of the 359W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 360W

Convention on Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Child Benefit and Child Tax Credit Against Women; and what plans she has for consultation with civil society organisations in the preparation of Mr Laws: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer this report. [49759] what cost savings would accrue to the Exchequer from restricting (a) child benefit and (b) child tax credit to Lynne Featherstone: The Government Equalities Office three children only for children born after 1 January (GEO) is responsible for overseeing the UK’s commitments 2012 in each year from 2012-13 to 2020-21; and if he to the UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms will make a statement. [49434] of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW) and leads across Government in co-ordinating the UK’s Periodic Mr Gauke: This information is available only at Report to the CEDAW Committee, in preparation for disproportionate cost. submission of the 7th Periodic Report, we organised a national public consultation event last November with Child Benefit: Lone Parents UK non-governmental organisations (NGOs) which I attended with the Minister for Women and Equalities, Ed Balls: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Newcastle (Mrs May). Officials have also met with NGO stakeholders Upon Tyne North of 28 February 2011, Official Report, and supported NGO consultation events in the Devolved column 39W, how many single parent families in the Nations. UK he expects to have their annual income reduced as a result of the proposed changes to child benefit. [44574]

Mr Gauke [holding answer 7 March 2011]: It is TREASURY estimated that around 55,000 single-parent families in the UK will have their annual income reduced as a Banks: Crown Dependencies result of the proposed changes to child benefit in 2012-13. These households are all within the top 20% of households. Graham Jones: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Child Care tax Credit what steps his Department is taking following the collapse of the Crown Currency Exchange to prevent similar Ed Balls: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer collapses. [49896] what estimate he has made of the effect of the decision Mr Hoban: I refer the hon. Member to my letter to to reduce the rate of childcare support from 80 per every Member of the House on 18 November 2010. cent. to 70 per cent. on the weekly income of families (a) in each income decile and (b) with each number of Graham Jones: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer children. [43459] what discussions he has had with representatives of (a) the Financial Services Authority and (b) Barclays Bank Mr Gauke [holding answer 2 March 2011]: No estimate on the (i) regulation and (ii) collapse of Crown Currency has been made. Exchange. [49897] The reduction of child care support to 70% from 80% is part of a range of reforms to the tax credits system Mr Hoban: I wrote to every Member of the House to announced at the spending review. set out the Government’s position on Crown Currency The Government published estimates of the distributional Exchange on 18 November 2010. impact of the package of announced tax and benefit Treasury Ministers and officials have discussions with measures which can be found at: a wide variety of organisations in the public and private http://cdn.hm-treasury.gov.uk/sr2010_annexb.pdf sectors as part of the process of policy development Estimating the impact of an individual measure does and delivery.As was the case with previous Administrations, not give a clear indication of the full monetary impact it is not the Government’s practice to provide details of on an individual household. all such discussions. Child Tax Credit Child Benefit Ed Balls: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Ed Balls: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what his estimate of the change (a) in weekly cash how many single income families will be affected by the income and (b) in proportion of weekly income for removal of child benefit from households containing a families in each income decile of the decision to remove higher-rate taxpayer in (a) the UK, (b) each region the baby element from the child tax credit from April and (c) each constituency. [44861] 2011. [43567]

Mr Gauke [holding answer 7 March 2011]: It is Mr Gauke [holding answer 2 March 2011]: No estimate estimated that around 180,000 single-income families in has been made. the UK will have their annual income reduced as a The removal of the baby element is part of a range of result of the proposed changes to child benefit in 2012-13. reforms to the tax credits system announced at the These households are all within the top 20% of household emergency Budget. incomes. Estimating the impact of an individual measure does Reliable estimates at the regional and parliamentary not give a clear indication of the full monetary impact constituency level are not available for this group. on an individual household. 361W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 362W

The Government published estimates of the distributional Departmental Cycling impact of the package of announced tax and benefit measures which can be found at: Tessa Munt: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/junebudget_annexa.pdf what plans he has for the future of the Cycle to Work scheme. [49581] Conditions of Employment Mr Gauke: The Cycle to Work scheme provides an Mr Thomas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer exemption from income tax on the benefit in kind how many people worked on the enforcement of created when an employer hires cycles or cycling safety employment rights and related protections in HM Revenue equipment to an employee. The Government have no and Customs in each of the last five years; how many plans to change this exemption. In the Budget the people he expects to work on such matters in that body Government announced their intention to abolish the in each of the next three years; and if he will make a separate tax relief that is currently available where statement. [47436] employers provide breakfasts to cyclists on designated cycle to work days, as recommended by the Office of Mr Gauke: The number of staff working in compliance Tax Simplification. teams on the enforcement of the national minimum wage within HMRC in each of the last five years is in the following table: Departmental Plants

At April Staff in post Luciana Berger: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 2006 110 how much his Department has spent on indoor and 2007 109 outdoor plants and trees since his appointment. [48423] 2008 122 2009 125 Justine Greening: The cost of the provision and 2010 129 maintenance of indoor plants within the 1 Horse Guards Road building between 1 May 20.10 and 28 February No estimate of future staff numbers is available as 2011 was £7,423. The contract covering the provision HMRC is currently considering future resource and maintenance of the outdoor plants and trees is part requirements for 2011-12 and beyond, in the context of of a wider maintenance contract in place since 2002 and the comprehensive spending review. the element applicable to outdoor plants and trees is not separately identifiable. Corporate Bond Market

Mr Thomas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Departmental Senior Civil Servants what recent assessment he has made of the potential for small and medium-sized businesses to access funds Mr David Davis: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer from the corporate bond market; and if he will make a what the (a) job title on departure and (b) payband statement. [49872] was of each senior civil servant in HM Revenue and Customs and its predecessors who resigned to take up a Mr Gauke [holding answer 29 March 2011]: The position with (i) Deloitte, PricewaterhouseCoopers, KPMG corporate bond markets are generally only a financing or Ernst and Young and (ii) a FTSE 100 company in option for larger companies and are not suitable for each of the last six years. [49959] small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs), as the Government set out in the “Financing a Private Sector Recovery” Green Paper last year. Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs holds data on the number of applications from senior civil servants However, as set out in “The Plan for Growth”published who sought approval to take up an outside appointment alongside the Budget, the Government will continue to for this year and the previous two years only. support industry-led developments to improve access to bond markets for midcap businesses, which have a Details are as follows: higher turnover than SMEs. 2008-09 Strategic Response Unit, SCS1 to (i) Deloitte, Defence: Finance PricewaterhouseCoopers, KPMG or Ernst and Young 2009-10 Oliver Colvile: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Deputy Director Specialist International, SCS1A to (i) Deloitte, when he expects to announce his decision in respect of PricewaterhouseCoopers, KPMG or Ernst and Young the Ministry of Defence’s Planning Round 11. [49630] Chief People Officer, SCS3 to (ii) a FTSE 100 company HRD Transformation Project, SCS1 to (ii) a FTSE 100 company Danny Alexander [holding answer 28 March 2011]: The Ministry of Defence’s spending plans were published HR Director Corporate Services, SCS1 to (ii) a FTSE 100 company in the spending review, which set out plans to reduce expenditure by 8% over the next four years. The Ministry 2010-11 of Defence will announce the conclusions of the planning Assistant Director, Low Income and Diversity, SCS1 to (i) round in due course. Deloitte, PricewaterhouseCoopers, KPMG or Ernst and Young. 363W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 364W

Excise Duties: Alcoholic Drinks Thousand Government Office Region 2011-12 2010-11 Change Philip Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has assessed the effect of (a) price elasticity Scotland 281 234 47 in the (i) on-trade and (ii) off-trade and (b) pass-through Northern Ireland 62 51 11 rates of alcohol duty on (A) levels of employment and Total1 3,660 3,060 600 (B) receipts to the Exchequer. [49473] 1 Includes some taxpayers who reside abroad or region is not known. These estimates are based on the 2007-08 Survey of Justine Greening: Price elasticities for both the on personal incomes projected to 2010-11 and 2011-12 in and off trade are used to assess the impact on receipts line with the Office of Budget Responsibility’s November from changes to alcohol duty rates. 2010 economic and fiscal outlook. HMRC research on price elasticities is published in the following technical paper: Insolvency http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/research/alcohol-consumption- uk.pdf Ed Balls: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer As part of the Budget process macroeconomic effects, how many businesses were entered into insolvency by such as employment, are considered for the whole package HM Revenue and Customs in each (a) region and (b) of economic measures, including estimates of alcohol parliamentary constituency since May 2010. [44862] duty receipts. The Office of Budget Responsibility’s ‘Economic and fiscal outlook’, published on 23 March Mr Gauke: The number of bankruptcy and winding 2011, estimates that total employment will rise by 900,000 up orders granted to HMRC in England and Wales between 2010 and 2015. from May 2010 to December 2010 was approximately 3.100. Excise Duties: Beer The other information is not available in the format requested. Philip Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer HMRC takes a sympathetic approach to both individuals if he will assess the effect of (a) levels on employment and businesses that have genuine short-term difficulties and (b) revenue to the Exchequer of (i) retaining beer in paying the tax they owe. In such cases HMRC will duty at the level in force on 22 March 2011 and (ii) aim to come to an arrangement to give time to pay and changing it in line with the 2011 Budget proposals. so avoid taking action that might lead to an otherwise [49472] viable business—or individual—being declared insolvent by the courts. Justine Greening: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Members: Correspondence Burton (Andrew Griffiths) on 28 March 2011, Official Report, column 35W. Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Chancellor of the Income Tax Exchequer when he plans to reply to the letter from the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton of 17 February 2011 on Mr J Taylor. [49774] Ed Balls: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the change in the number Mr Hoban: I have replied to the right hon. Member. of people paying income tax at the 40 per cent. rate with effect from 5 April 2011 in each region. [43460] Monetary Policy Mr Gauke [holding answer 2 March 2011]: In the June 2010 Budget, it was estimated that 880,000 persons Steve Baker: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be taken out of tax in 2011-12 as a result of the if he will assess the (a) short and (b) long-term effects above indexation increase in the personal allowance to of quantitative easing on levels of employment. [49083] £7,475. Justine Greening: Quantitative easing (QE) through The number of higher rate income taxpayers is projected the asset purchase facility provides the independent to increase by 600,000 in 2011-12. A breakdown by Monetary Policy Committee (MPC) of the Bank of region is provided in the following table. England with another tool, in addition to reductions in bank rate, to support nominal demand in order to meet Thousand the inflation target in the medium term. Government Office Region 2011-12 2010-11 Change The bank’s May 2009 inflation report explains how North East 100 80 20 asset purchases work to stimulate nominal spending North West 311 252 59 along various channels. The bank’s analysis, for example Yorkshire and Humberside 224 183 41 in the Quarterly Bulletin 2011 Q1, is that QE has had a East Midlands 228 187 41 positive impact along these channels. West Midlands 248 204 44 East of England 412 347 65 National Asset Management Agency London 656 566 90 South East 707 605 102 Ben Gummer: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer South West 287 232 55 (1) what conditions were placed on the loan facility Wales 115 93 22 extended to the government of the Republic of Ireland 365W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 366W relating to the sale or release of property assets in the Justine Greening: [holding answer 28 March 2011]: UK owned by the National Asset Management Agency; The Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) is responsible [49377] for producing independent economic and fiscal forecasts. (2) what discussions he has had with his counterpart The OBR published its latest ‘Economic and fiscal in the Republic of Ireland on the sale and release of outlook’ on 23 March 2011, which can be found online assets in the UK owned by the National Asset at: Management Agency. [49378] http://cdn.budgetresponsibility.independent.gov.uk/ economic_and_fiscal_outlook_23032011.pdf Mr Hoban: The conditions of the bilateral loan were The oil prices used by the OBR to produce their set out in the loan agreement placed in the library of the economic and fiscal forecasts are set out on page 95, in Houses of Parliament on 10th January 2011: Table 4.3: Determinants of the fiscal forecast. http://www.parliament.uk/deposits/depositedpapers/2011/ DEP2011-0015.pdf The mandate for the National Asset Management Personal Taxation Agency (NAMA) was set by the Irish Government under Irish legislation. NAMA’s role has been set out in Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) agreement with international partners in the Memorandum if he will estimate the effect on the average annual level of Understanding between the Irish Government and of income tax payable by an individual in the (a) 20 per the International Monetary Fund, European Commission cent., (b) 40 per cent. and (c) 50 per cent. band of and the European Central Bank. income tax if personal taxation allowances were linked The Government maintain a dialogue with the Irish to the retail price index in each of the next four financial authorities on a wide range of issues in respect of the years; [49770] financial crisis. As was the case with previous (2) if he will estimate the cost to the Exchequer of Administrations, it is not this Government’s practice to linking personal taxation allowances to the retail price provide details of all such discussions. index in each of the next four financial years. [49795] National Insurance: Databases Mr Gauke: Income tax allowances are not linked to Mr Liddell-Grainger: To ask the Chancellor of the consumer price index (CPI) during the years in question Exchequer (1) whether the National Insurance and (2012-13 to 2015-16. Only national insurance contribution PAYEService holds a computer record for every individual (NICs) rates and thresholds are linked to CPI from for whom a national insurance number has been issued; 2012-13 onwards (excluding the Secondary Threshold [49599] for employer Class 1 NICs). (2) how many individual records have been added to The only change to income tax allowances from the National Insurance and PAYE Service system since 2012-13 is the £630 cash increase to the personal allowance it went online. [49600] (PA), for individuals under 65, with an equal decrease in the basic rate limit (BRL). This leaves the higher rate Mr Gauke: DWP holds a computer record for every threshold (the sum of the PA and BRL) unchanged. individual for whom a national insurance number (NINO) The following is a link to the 2011 Budget Report has been issued. Overview: HMRC systems reflect the population of adults who http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2011/overview.pdf have an active record and estimates approximately one The PA increase is explained on Page A24 with million new NINO records are added to the system in relevant Exchequer impacts. each fiscal year.

Mr Liddell-Grainger: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what his most recent assessment is of progress Tax Yields in the introduction of a real-time information system to the National Insurance and PAYE Service computer John Cryer: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer system; and whether he expects it to be in operation by if he will estimate the revenue to the Exchequer to spring 2012. [49602] accrue from the application of a surcharge of 15 per cent. on unearned investment income over £7,000 in (a) Mr Gauke: HMRC has made good progress in 2009-10 and (b) 2010-11. [49488] developing the new Real Time Information system. This includes the completion of a public consultation Mr Gauke: Total investment income exceeding the and the submission of requirements to its IT suppliers specified £7,000 threshold across individuals is estimated in line with plans. I expect HMRC to be in a position to at £42.7 billion in 2009-10 and £43.5 billion in 2010-11. pilot the Real Time Information system with employers, pension providers and payroll bureaux from the spring These estimates are based on the Survey of Personal of 2012. Incomes 2007-08, projected in line with the Office of Budget Responsibility’s November 2010 economic and Oil: Excise Duties fiscal outlook. An additional charge of 15% on this income would Mr David Hamilton: To ask the Chancellor of the give rise to substantial behavioural effects. Estimates of Exchequer if he will publish the forecast of future oil the behavioural responses to changes in tax rates on prices on which he based his assessment of the fiscal investment income, and hence overall impacts on tax effects of his proposed changes to fuel duty. [49422] revenues, are not available. 367W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 368W

Taxation: Self-assessment checks. Legal requirements for checks will continue to apply in the education and health sectors, and for David Morris: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer people working with children on a less frequent basis, if he will remove the rules that prevent pay as you earn employers will still have discretion to request a check. employees who have been taxed at an incorrect code We can not comment on individual cases that form transferring the overpayment and setting it against their part of an investigation by the Child Exploitation Online self-assessment liabilities. [49548] Protection Centre.

Mr Gauke: Customers in receipt of PAYE income Departmental Public Bodies and who are required to complete an annual self-assessment tax return have their total taxable income (from all Tessa Jowell: To ask the Secretary of State for the sources) and resultant tax liability calculated under Home Department what estimate her Department has self-assessment and not as part of the annual PAYE end made of the level of savings which will accrue from the of year reconciliation process. abolition of the Forensic Science Service. [48681]

Working Tax Credit: Lone Parents James Brokenshire: The Forensic Science Service (FSS) has been making huge financial losses and we are Mr Sanders: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer determined to make the managed closure as cost effective if he will make an assessment of the effect on the to the taxpayer as possible. We are actively seeking to number of single parents in employment of the reduction reduce the cost to the taxpayer such as through the sale in the child care element of working tax credits. [47048] of FSS assets and transfer of staff.

Mr Gauke: No estimate has been made. Tessa Jowell: To ask the Secretary of State for the The reduction of child care support to 70% from 80% Home Department what estimate her Department has is part of a range of reforms to the tax credits system made of the level of savings which will accrue from the announced at the spending review. merging of the Independent Safeguarding Authority There are interactions between the measures so estimating and the Criminal Records Bureau. [48808] the impact of just one measure does not give a clear indication of the full impact on households. Lynne Featherstone: The reviews of the Criminal Records Regime and Vetting and Barring Scheme (VBS) The Government published estimates of the distributional recommended that a single new body be created to impact of the whole package of announced tax and carry out both criminal records disclosure and barring benefit measures which can be found at: functions. The details of this new organisation have yet http://cdn.hm-treasury.gov.uk/sr2010_annexb.pdf to be finalised and we will be taking a careful and considered approach to its formation. There is potential to realise efficiencies by delivering HOME DEPARTMENT a new proportionate criminal records regime, however, the planning for this is currently in its early stages. British Nationality DNA: Databases Jack Dromey: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when she plans to bring forward Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the proposals for further substantial changes to the rules Home Department what recent discussions she has had for obtaining settlement and citizenship in the UK as with officials in her Department on the process of indicated in November 2010. [49943] loading batches of samples to the National DNA Database; how many samples are contained in each batch loaded Damian Green: The Government will consult on to the database; whether such batches can be split proposals to break the link between temporary migration retrospectively after loading; and if she will make a and permanent settlement later this year. statement. [48098] Children: Protection James Brokenshire: I have had no recent discussions with officials on this issue. Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for the DNA samples are not added to the National DNA Home Department whether any of the alleged child Database (NDNAD); the samples are analysed and abuse suspects identified by the Child Exploitation converted into a numerical DNA sample profile which Online Protection Centre in March 2011 would not is then added to the NDNAD. DNA sample profile have been subject to the proposed revision to the records are submitted to the NDNAD in electronic regime for criminal record checks. [49298] ‘Analytical Results Files’. The number of DNA sample profiles in each of these Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 28 March 2011]: electronic files depends on the processes used by the On 11 February Sunita Mason, the Independent Advisor submitting DNA Forensic Supplier. Each file can contain for Criminality Information Management, published between one and 1,000 DNA sample profile records. On her report on the Criminal Records Regime. We are receipt, the batch file will be copied into a folder within carefully considering her recommendations. the NDNAD Confidential Network by an NDNAD Changes proposed in the Protection of Freedoms Bill operator. The NDNAD system then processes the batch will not change the current eligibility for criminal records file, as a whole, automatically. Batch files are not split 369W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 370W retrospectively after receipt by the NDNAD. Any alterations the National DNA Database, all other associated records to a batch file would result in it failing to load onto the will also be removed from that database. NDNAD. In addition to our proposals in respect of the removal of DNA profiles from the National DNA Database, we Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the propose that all biological DNA samples will be destroyed Home Department what estimate she has made of the within six months of being taken. cost to the public purse of her proposals to remove certain DNA profiles from the National DNA Domestic Violence: Immigrants Database. [48099]

James Brokenshire: We estimate that implementing Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for the our proposals for the deletion from the National DNA Home Department what plans she has to undertake a Database of the DNA profiles of those arrested but not review of the Sojourner Project; and if she will make a convicted of an offence and the destruction of biological statement. [49750] DNA samples will have a one-off cost of £4.8 million. Damian Green: A full, independent evaluation of the Further details of these costs are contained in the pilot is currently underway, led by the charity Against impact assessment produced for the Protection of Freedoms Violence and Abuse. This evaluation is due to report in Bill which can be found on Home Office website at: the spring. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/about-us/ legislation/freedom-bill/pof-bill-ia Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what recent assessment she has made Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the of the effectiveness of the Sojourner Project; and if she Home Department who will be responsible for (a) will make a statement. [49751] taking possession of DNA profile material and (b) supervising the destruction of records following the Damian Green: The Sojourner Project started on 29 closure of the Forensic Science Service. [48172] November 2009. An internal, interim evaluation of the pilot was conducted when the pilot had been in existence James Brokenshire: As part of the managed closure for three months. This provided an opportunity for the process we will ensure steps are taken to safeguard Home Office and the UK Border Agency to understand records and prevent any break in continuity when the the emerging findings arising from the pilot to help company ceases trading. We will also ensure records are inform any future developments in this policy area. destroyed where appropriate. Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for the Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what consideration she has given to Home Department (1) what assessment she has made the merits of extending the 20-day limit for applications of the potential effects of the closure of the Forensic for indefinite leave to remain from women accepted on Science Service on the Government’s plans to remove the Sojourner Project; and if she will make a statement. profiles from the National DNA Database; [48173] [49752] (2) what (a) funding and (b) staff she plans to allocate for the removal of DNA profiles from the Damian Green: From April 2011 the Home Office National DNA Database following the closure of the will provide a total of 50 days funding for those accepted Forensic Science Service. [48160] on the Sojourner Project; 30 days for the claimant to submit an application under the Domestic Violence James Brokenshire: The Forensic Science Service (FSS) provisions and 20 days for the UK Border Agency to and other forensic science providers derive DNA profiles reach a decision on the application. from biological samples taken by the police and submit them to the National Policing Improvement Agency Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for the (NPIA) for loading onto the NDNAD. It is the profiles Home Department how many applications for indefinite on the National DNA Database (NDNAD) that are the leave to remain were made within the 20-day limit by primary focus of the provisions of the Protection of women accepted on to the Sojourner Project; and if she Freedoms Bill. Consideration is currently being given to will make a statement. [49753] the destruction of profiling records held by all forensic suppliers. The NPIA is already working on the Damian Green: Figures1 from the beginning of the implementation of the Bill and, on the assumption that Sojourner Project (November 2009) indicate that 23% the Bill receives Royal Assent by early 2012, plans will of applications for indefinite leave to remain on the already be in place to implement the legislation. basis of domestic violence were submitted to the UK Border Agency within the 20 day limit by applicants Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the accepted onto the Sojourner project. Home Department whether her proposals for removal We have recognised that applicants face difficulties in of DNA profiles from the National DNA Database gathering and submitting the necessary evidence within contemplate the removal from the database of all the initial 20 day period. That is why we have chosen to records associated with a DNA sample. [48905] extend the funding period which a person who has been accepted onto the Sojourner project is eligible to receive. James Brokenshire: Where the Government’s proposals 1 The information has been provided from local management in the Protection of Freedoms Bill would result in a information and is not a National Statistic. As such it should be person’s numerical DNA profile being removed from treated as provisional and therefore subject to change. 371W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 372W

Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for the Michael Moore: Since appointment I have had a Home Department in what proportion of cases the UK number of meetings with representatives of the oil and Border Agency met the 20-day target for the processing gas industry in Scotland and will continue to do so. of applications for indefinite leave to remain in Public Expenditure domestic violence cases in the latest period for which figures are available; and if she will make a statement. Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for [49754] Scotland what discussions his Department has had with Damian Green: The information is as follows: HM Treasury on the implications of the 2011 Budget Figures for the latest period, January 2011, show that the UK for the provisions of the Scotland Bill. [49846] Border Agency met the 20 day target for processing applications for indefinite leave to remain as a victim of domestic violence in David Mundell: The Secretary of State for Scotland 74% of cases. and I have regular discussions with all UK Ministers on The information has been provided from local management a range of issues. The provisions of the Scotland Bill information and is not a National Statistic. As such it should be will deliver financial accountability to the Scottish treated as provisional and therefore subject to change. Parliament whilst retaining the benefits of the unified UK tax system for business and individuals across Domestic Violence: Suicide Scotland. Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether an estimate has been made of the number of those who experience domestic violence HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION who have committed suicide; and if she will make a Art Works statement. [49745] Gloria De Piero: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Lynne Featherstone: The Home Office does not collect Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of data on the number of people who experience domestic Commons Commission, how many works of art in the violence who have committed suicide. However, according Parliamentary Art Collection are (a) on display and to the British Crime Survey, in 3% of incidents of (b) in storage. [49790] partner abuse in 2008-09, the victim tried to commit suicide. John Thurso: There are over 8,500 works of art in the Parliamentary Art Collection. Around 80% of the collection European Gendarmerie Force is on display throughout the buildings of the Parliamentary Estate at any one time, with 20% held in store. This Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the figure fluctuates regularly due to office moves, picture Home Department if she will make it her policy not to selections and changes made to the displays. consent to the deployment of the European Gendarmerie force on UK territory. [49844] Gloria De Piero: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, James Brokenshire: There have been no European Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Gendarmerie Force (EGF) personnel deployed in the Commons Commission, what the cost to the House of UK and the Government currently see no circumstances Commons Service was of insuring the Parliamentary (a) in which they would consent to an EGF operation in Art Collection in respect of works on display and (b) the UK. The EGF is a multinational initiative of six in storage in the last year for which figures are countries (France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands available. [49791] and Romania) aimed at improving crisis management John Thurso: The House Service does not purchase capability in sensitive areas and supporting peacekeeping commercial insurance for works of art in the Parliamentary missions around the world. The UK is not part of this Art Collection when they are on display in the buildings initiative. of the Parliamentary Estate. Similarly no commercial Metals: Sales insurance is purchased for works of art held in storage on the Parliamentary Estate. Mr Alan Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State for Works of art from the Parliamentary Art Collection the Home Department what plans she has to prohibit are covered by insurance when they are on loan to third payments in cash for supplies of scrap metal. [49153] parties outside the Parliamentary Estate and in such instances the borrower pays the cost of the insurance James Brokenshire: We are exploring the feasibility, cover. with the ACPO Conductive Metal Theft Working Group, During the current financial year 2010-11 the House of introducing a non-statutory cashless trading model Service has paid £1,350 for commercial insurance for for scrap metal dealers. 240 works of art from the Parliamentary Art Collection temporarily being held in external storage.

SCOTLAND INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Oil and Gas Darfur Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland when he last met representatives of the oil 15. Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for and gas industries in Scotland; and if he will make a International Development what steps he is taking to statement. [49954] alleviate the humanitarian situation in Darfur. [49675] 373W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 374W

Mr Andrew Mitchell: In Darfur, more than 70,000 children; a wide range of clinical and operational research people have fled fighting since January. The UK is the to improve the diagnosis of TB in children and to find single largest donor to the Common Humanitarian better ways to treat people with TB, in particular multi-drug Fund. We also support NGOs and the International resistant TB, which has a large impact on children and Committee of the Red Cross in their work on health, families. nutrition, water and sanitation, and protection. Development Aid Developing Countries: Tuberculosis Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what the poorest country is Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for International to which the UK provides development aid; and what Development what resources his Department is providing form such aid takes. [49888] for development of diagnostic tools to detect tuberculosis at the point of care in (a) rural and (b) other communities Mr Andrew Mitchell: According to Statistics on in developing countries. [49447] International Development (SID), published October 2010, Burundi is ranked as the poorest country to which Mr O’Brien: The Department for International the UK provides bilateral and multilateral aid. Burundi’s Development is supporting a public-private product gross national income per capita is $135. Following the development partnership, the Foundation for Innovative Bilateral Aid Review, the UK Government are focusing New Diagnostics (FIND), with funding of £5 million future support exclusively on furthering Burundi’s for the period 2009-14. FIND are working on a number integration into the East African Community (EAC). of new diagnostic tools for tuberculosis, including those We consider this to be the single most important that can be used in (a) rural settings and (b) in reference contributing factor to Burundi’s economic growth in laboratories and district hospitals. the medium term. The UK Government’s work on To date FIND have developed five diagnostic tests Trade Mark East Africa has supported the creation of a for reference laboratories and district hospitals and are new Revenue Authority in Burundi, resulting in overall also working on how they can adapt these tools for use revenues rising by more than 30% and domestic tax in more peripheral settings. revenues doubling. UK funding to Burundi will continue to be provided through the multilateral development Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for International organisations. Development whether his Department has plans to Details of UK aid expenditure in developing countries share the best practice on tackling tuberculosis and are published in SID, which is available in the House HIV in maternal care arising from its work in Rwanda Library or online at: with international counterparts. [49448] www.dfid.gov.uk Mr O’Brien: The Department for International Swaziland: Overseas Aid Development (DFID) does not work specifically on tackling tuberculosis and HIV/AIDS in maternal care Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for in Rwanda. DFID provides sector budget support to International Development if he will review his decision the health sector as a whole, to support the Government on the reprioritisation of aid to Swaziland in light of of Rwanda delivering results across the sector. The the rate of HIV prevalence and low life expectancy in performance of the health sector is regularly reviewed that country. [49443] jointly by the Government of Rwanda and donors. These reviews enable dialogue around best practice and Mr O’Brien: The Department for International agreement on how to disseminate lessons to the wider Development (DFID) closed its bilateral programme to international health community. The Government of Swaziland in 2005. DFID’s support for Swaziland is Rwanda themselves are very proactive in disseminating mainly delivered through multilateral partners such as their best practice to other developing country governments the World Bank, UN, European Commission (EC) and and partners and have, for example, recently done so Global Fund to Fight AIDS, TB and Malaria. with respect to results-based health financing and Swaziland will continue to benefit from regional community health insurance. The World Health programmes managed by the DFID office in South Organisation and the Global Fund for HIV/AIDS, Africa. For example, our regional HIV and AIDS behaviour Tuberculosis and Malaria also play a leading role, supported change programme has reached 80% of the population by the UK, in sharing best practice on tackling tuberculosis of Swaziland with radio, TV and booklets containing and HIV in maternal care. messages on the importance of prevention and testing for HIV and AIDS. Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for International In 2008-09, DFID provided £4.5 million in aid to Development what research his Department plans to Swaziland. undertake on the effects of tuberculosis on children and families in the developing world in the next 12 months. [49453] FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Mr O’Brien: The Department for International Alcoholic Drinks Development is supporting a range of research programmes that will address the impact of tuberculosis (TB) on Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for children and families in the developing world, over the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much his next 12 months and beyond. For example, research on Department has spent on the contents of ministerial the development of new vaccines aimed at infants and drinks cabinets since 12 May 2010. [48352] 375W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 376W

Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office During his recent meeting in January with Chinese does not have ministerial drinks cabinets. Vice-Premier Li Keqiang, the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs expressed his concern Arms Trade about Chen’s treatment. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne) also raised Chen’s Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign case with the head of the Chinese delegation to the and Commonwealth Affairs what his policy is on the UK-China Human Rights Dialogue on 13 January, and export of (a) arms and (b) crowd control devices to called for his release. We also included Chen on a list of foreign governments which his Department identifies as individual cases of concern that was handed to the head non-democratic or oppressive. [49084] of the delegation to the UK-China Human Rights Dialogue. Alistair Burt: We operate one of the most robust and A satisfactory response on Chen’s case has not yet transparent arms exports control systems in the world, been received. We continue to monitor his situation and whereby all controlled goods (including arms and crowd are working with EU partners to maintain the profile of control devices) are assessed, on a case-by-case basis, his case. against the Consolidated EU and National Arms Export Licensing Criteria. As the Secretary of State said to the Departmental Cycling Foreign Affairs Committee on 16 March 2011, we will review the export of equipment that might be used for internal repression, in particular crowd control goods. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many employees of his Department are participating in the Cycle to British Nationals Abroad Work scheme. [49409]

Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many has approximately 70 London based employees participating British nationals he estimates are resident in (a) Brazil, in the Cycle to Work scheme. (b) Russia, (c) India and (d) China. [48341] Departmental Redundancy Mr Hague: British nationals resident overseas are not obliged to inform our embassies or consulates of their Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign presence although we actively encourage them to do so. and Commonwealth Affairs how many civil servants in Therefore, our estimates are based on the number of his Department have been offered voluntary redundancy those nationals who we understand have been issued since April 2010; and if he will make a statement. resident permits, or made themselves known to the [49185] embassies, and from publicly available research. We estimate: Alistair Burt: No Foreign and Commonwealth Office Brazil—in the region of 10,000 British nationals permanently staff have been offered voluntary redundancy since resident; April 2010. Russia—in the region of 7,000 British nationals permanently resident; Egypt: Aviation India—in the region of 34,000 British nationals permanently resident, rising to around 51,000 at certain times of the year; Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for China—in the region of 17,000 British nationals permanently Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the resident. answer of 15 February 2011, Official Report, column 713W, on Egypt: politics and government, how many Chen Guangcheng British nationals who used flights from Egypt charted by his Department have (a) paid and (b) not paid for Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign the flight to date. [48943] and Commonwealth Affairs what recent representations (a) he, (b) Ministers in his Department, (c) officials in Alistair Burt: Our records show that the two charter his Department, (d) HM Ambassador to China and flights carried 196 British nationals. As of 25 March (e) officials in the British Embassy in China have made 2011, repayment cheques have been received for 42 to the government of China on (i) Chen Guangcheng passengers. This covers 29 adults plus 13 children, with and (ii) his family; what response was received; and if he a total value of £11,200. will make a statement. [47700] Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Alistair Burt: We are concerned by persistent reports Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his Department’s of mistreatment and extrajudicial restrictions targeting policy is on charging (a) British and (b) non-British individual human rights defenders in China, particularly nationals who used recent flights chartered by his lawyers. We are aware of the video released on 9 February Department from Egypt. [48965] 2011 of blind human rights lawyer Chen Guangcheng, in which he describes the restrictions placed upon him Alistair Burt: I refer my hon. Friend to my response during his current period of house arrest. We are concerned of 15 February 2011, Official Report, column 713W. about the treatment of Chen and his family, whose As of 25 March 2011, repayment cheques have been detention appears to violate Chinese laws. received for 42 passengers. 377W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 378W

Egypt: Politics and Government Mr Hague [holding answer 21 March 2011]: There was no question of the British Government deciding Kwasi Kwarteng: To ask the Secretary of State for not to give permission to the International Rescue Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he plans Corps to work in Japan. Decisions about whether to to offer (a) financial and (b) other support to Egypt accept or decline offers of assistance are for the Japanese for the purposes of managing political transition. Government. Our embassy in Tokyo wrote a formal [49403] letter of support to the Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs on the International Rescue Corps’ behalf It did Alistair Burt: The Government support a peaceful, not consider it necessary to consult Ministers before democratic transition and political reform that meets doing so. the aspirations of the Egyptian people. The EU is the main channel for our support and financial assistance Libya: Aviation to Egypt. The EU has offered a package of measures to support the transition to a civilian-led democratic government in Egypt, and awaits a formal request from Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for the Egyptians to take this forward. The EU is also Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many seats working on measures to support civil society in Egypt. were (a) available and (b) occupied on each of the In addition, we are discussing bilateral assistance flights on aircraft recently chartered by his Department with the Egyptian Government aimed at Egypt’s political, for passenger transport from Libya. [48918] economic and structural needs. This includes work strands to promote political participation, employment and Alistair Burt: Six flights were chartered to offer primarily vocational education, civil society engagement, security British nationals and then foreign nationals safe passage sector reform, constitutional reform, and help to tackle out of Libya. A total of 1099 seats were made available; corruption and conflict of interest in government. I met 553 seats were occupied. Due to the chaotic situation the Egyptian Finance Minister, Dr Samir Radwan, on and safety concerns at Libya airport it was not always 25 March 2011 and we discussed economic recovery possible for British nationals to pass through immigration and the political transition in Egypt. and/or board flights in sufficient time to meet chartered aircraft. Japan: Aviation 1. Departed Libya (Tripoli) at 02:47 on Thursday 24 February 2011—221 seats available; 181 seats used Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for 2. Departed Libya (Tripoli) at 18:09 on Thursday 24 February Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many seats 2011—180 seats available; 131 seats used were (a) available and (b) occupied on each of the 3. Departed Libya (Tripoli) at 22:49 on Thursday 24 February flights on aircraft recently chartered by his Department 2011—200 seats available; three seats used for passenger transport from Japan following the 4. Departed Libya (Tripoli) at 23:55 on Thursday 24 February tsunami. [48910] 2011—170 seats available; 0 seats used Mr Jeremy Browne: Following the revision of the 5. Departed Libya (Tripoli) at 08:35 on Friday 25 February 2011—180 seats available; 136 seats used Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s (FCO) travel advice to advise British nationals to consider leaving Tokyo 6. Departed Libya (Tripoli) at 13:07 on Saturday 26 February and areas to the north of Tokyo, the FCO secured seats 2011—148 seats available; 102 seats used. on four flights to Hong Kong for British nationals who were unable to book tickets on commercial flights out Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for of Japan. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate he has made of the number of British nationals who have Flight one—The FCO block booked seats on a commercial flight with Cathay Pacific airlines. 200 seats were made available left Libya in the last month on flights organised by and 44 British nationals and dependents took up seats. other governments. [48942] Flight two—FCO chartered this flight. 283 seats were available and four British nationals took up seats. Alistair Burt: We believe that the departure of around Flight three—FCO chartered this flight using Orient Thai Air. 150 British nationals, by air or sea, was assisted by 448 seats were available and 20 British nationals and dependents other EU governments. took up seats. Flight four—FCO block booked seats on a commercial flight Libya: Politics and Government with Cathay Pacific airlines. 50 seats were made available and 11 British nationals and their dependents took up seats. Given the scale of the unfolding crisis and unpredictability Stephen Mosley: To ask the Secretary of State for of demand, these bookings were a sensible precautionary Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps the measure to ensure that all British nationals and their Government is taking to assist in the delivery of essential families who wished to leave Japan immediately were medical supplies to Libya. [47629] able to do so. Alistair Burt: On 9 March 2011, the Department for Japan: Tsunami International Development announced that the UK would provide funding to the International Committee Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State of the Red Cross (ICRC) which will enable the ICRC to for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether provide three medical surgical teams to treat and provide Ministers in his Department were consulted on the medical supplies to 3,000 people affected by the fighting decision not to give permission to International Rescue in Libya. The ICRC will act to co-ordinate support to Corps to work in Japan following the tsunami. [47971] hospitals and facilitate delivery of these medical supplies. 379W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 380W

We continue to address humanitarian concerns as Preparations for the London 2012 Truce are at an part of our response to the deteriorating situation in early stage. I have not yet held discussions with the Libya. For example, as well as imposing immediate Department for International Development on the Truce, measures to stop the violence in Libya, the UK-led UN but the FCO will discuss our contribution to the Truce Security Council Resolution 1970 called on member as part of the overall preparations for the 2012 Olympics. states to facilitate humanitarian aid and urged the Libyan authorities to ensure the safe passage of medical supplies Tunisia: Aviation into the country. The UK drafted and co-sponsored UN Security Council Resolution 1973 adopted on 17 March Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011, similarly demanded that the Libyan authorities Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what costs his ensure the rapid and unimpeded passage of humanitarian Department has incurred in chartering aircraft to Tunisia assistance. It also made clear that the ban on all flights in 2011; [48936] in Libyan airspace shall not apply to flights whose sole purpose is humanitarian, such as delivering or facilitating (2) how many (a) British and (b) non-British nationals the delivery of assistance, including medical supplies, have used flights organised by his Department from food, humanitarian workers and related assistance. Tunisia in 2011. [48953] Middle East: Armed Conflict Alistair Burt: No flights were chartered for consular crisis reasons by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for from Tunisia in 2011. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment he has made of the Palestinian Authority’s adherence Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for to its road map commitment to end incitement against Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate he has made of the number of British nationals who have Israel. [49169] left Tunisia in 2011 on flights organised by other Alistair Burt [holding answer 28 March 2011]: The governments. [48941] Government deplores all incitement to violence. We have strongly supported the Palestinian Authority’s (PA) Alistair Burt: We do not have an accurate estimate of programme of reform of its institutions of state, including the number of British nationals that have left Tunisia the security sector. The PA has made considerable progress on flights organised by other governments. in this regard, meaning a more effective government, an improved security situation, and the PA meeting its core Western Sahara: Morrocco commitments under the Quartet Roadmap. For this progress to be sustainable progress is needed towards a Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for two-state solution; it is vital that obstacles to resuming Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether Western negotiations are removed, including Israel’s decision to Sahara was discussed during his recent meeting with continue building settlements, in direct contravention of the Moroccan Minister for Foreign Affairs. [49392] its Roadmap commitments. Alistair Burt: The Secretary of State for Foreign and Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) met the Moroccan representations to the Palestinian authorities on the Minister for Foreign Affairs Taieb Fassi Fihri in London need to reduce tensions between Israel and the Gaza on 10 March 2011. They discussed Western Sahara in Strip. [49385] the context of the constitutional reforms announced by King Mohammed VI of Morocco in his speech of Alistair Burt [holding answer 28 March 2011]: My 9 March 2011. They also discussed the role of the new right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary expressed his National Council of Human Rights which will have a concern at the escalating violence in Israel and the Gaza regional office in Western Sahara. Strip in a statement on 25 March 2011, noting a surge in rockets and mortars launched at Israeli civilians and the Yemen death of six Palestinian civilians as a result of Israeli actions in the Gaza Strip. Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign We have underlined in public and in private, with and Commonwealth Affairs on what date he last spoke both Israeli and Palestinian interlocutors, the need to to the President of Yemen. [49730] prevent further loss of innocent life, to bring the perpetrators to justice and to work to reduce these tensions. Alistair Burt: The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member Olympic Games 2012 for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) last spoke to President Saleh on his visit to Yemen on 9 February, when he Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for discussed social, political and economic reform, as well Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions as counter terrorism. I spoke to YemeniForeign Minister he has had with the Department for International Dr Al-Qirbi on 19 March. Development on projects to be taken forward under the London 2012 Olympic Truce. [48084] Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he Mr Jeremy Browne: The Foreign and Commonwealth has had with members of the Friends of Yemen group; Office (FCO) fully supports the Olympic Truce. and what proposals have been discussed. [49809] 381W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 382W

Alistair Burt: I am in frequent contact with a number (2) what estimate he has made of the potential of Friends of Yemen partners, including my EU number of (a) full-time and (b) part-time jobs to be counterparts, the United States, the United Arab Emirates, created in solar photovoltaic farms in Cornwall under Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and of course Yemen.Discussions the feed-in tariff scheme by 2015; and what assessment have followed on from the previous meeting in September he has made of the likely effect on this estimate of the 2010 in New York, and how we could move forward to outcome of the fast-track review of the feed-in tariff help Yemen tackle their political, economic and security scheme. [49396] challenges. Gregory Barker: Impacts of the fast-track proposals on Great Britain (GB) have been considered during the consultation stage and are reflected in the accompanying ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE impact assessment which has been published on the Carbon Emissions: Housing DECC website: http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/consultations/ Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy fit_review/fit_review.aspx and Climate Change if he will estimate the proportion The Department will not be producing a specific of household carbon dioxide emissions which arose impact assessment for Cornwall. from (a) lighting, (b) heating, (c) cooking and (d) electrical appliances in the latest period for which figures Sheryll Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for are available. [49880] Energy and Climate Change how many megawatts of solar photovoltaic generating capacity have been installed Gregory Barker [holding answer 29 March 2011]: in Cornwall and Devon since the launch of the feed-in DECC publishes estimates of how fuel use is broken tariff scheme. [49394] down by end use in ‘Energy Consumption in the United Kingdom’: Gregory Barker: Since the launch of the FITs scheme http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/publications/ on 1 April 2010, the generating capacity of solar ecuk/ecuk.aspx photovoltaic (PV) installations in Cornwall and Devon Analysis of these data, when combined with emissions up to 31 December 2010 are: factors, indicate that lighting accounted for 7% of household Devon—1.398 MW emissions, heating for 65%, cooking for 4%, and electrical Cornwall—0.645 MW and 0.00376 MW on the Isles of Scilly appliances for 24%. In addition, there is a further 0.326 MW in Devon and 0.110 MW in Cornwall which were installed between Carbon Reduction Commitment Energy Efficiency 15 July 2009 and 31 March 2010 (when the FITs scheme Scheme was announced).

Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Public Bodies: Feed-in Tariffs Energy and Climate Change if he will bring forward proposals to simplify the administration of the Carbon Reduction Commitment Energy Efficiency Scheme by Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State removing or minimising the administrative (a) cost to for Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer and (b) burden on businesses. [49845] of 15 March 2011, Official Report, column 296W, on renewable energy: feed-in-tariffs, if he will place in the Gregory Barker: Yes. The Government are committed Library details of the feed-in-tariff schemes in the 51 to simplifying the CRC Energy Efficiency Scheme in non-departmental public bodies receiving a revenue order to reduce the burden on participants while from feed-in-tariffs. [48325] maintaining the incentives on participants to implement cost effective energy efficiency measures. Gregory Barker: The Department does not hold that We have laid an amendment order before the House information. containing the first tranche of amendments to the CRC. The order will postpone the start of phase 2 to give us a Renewable Energy: Feed-in Tariffs suitable window to consider and implement broader simplification measures. This amendment also reduces Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy the administrative burden to over 12,000 organisations, and Climate Change what his policy is on social by removing the requirement for organisations to make landlords acting as electricity generators; and if he will an information disclosure from phase 2 onwards. This make a statement. [49464] order will come into force on 1 April 2011. I will bring forward further proposals later this year following Gregory Barker: The feed-in tariffs (FITs) scheme consideration of the simplification proposals we have does not exclude anyone from participating in the scheme. received from participants to date. We recognise the contribution social landlords could make towards fuel poverty by participating in the scheme. Feed-in Tariffs Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Sheryll Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for and Climate Change whether each owner of a flat in a Energy and Climate Change (1) if his Department will property with array capacity which may exceed 4KW in produce an impact assessment on Cornwall as part of total who have separate electricity supply and meters the fast-track review of the feed-in tariff scheme; are individually eligible for the 4.3 pence feed-in tariff. [49393] [49539] 383W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 384W

Gregory Barker: A site is defined in the Standard Water Power Conditions of Electricity Supply Licence as: “the premises to which are attached one or more Accredited Anna Soubry: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Feed-in Tariffs (FITs) installations or Eligible Installations in and Climate Change what assessment he has made of close geographical proximity to each other, to be determined by: the merits of greater utilisation of (a) hydropower and a). the relevant meter point administration number for the electricity (b) water wheel turbines on rivers. [49702] supply, b). street address, c). OS grid reference; and any other factors with the Authority (Ofgem) at its discretion views as Gregory Barker: There have been several recent relevant.” assessments of the UK’s remaining hydropower potential, Application of these is the responsibility of Ofgem including old water wheel sites. These have estimated who are the administrators of the scheme. It is therefore the remaining viable resource at between 850 MW and not within the Department’s remit to make definitive 1,550 MW, which is equivalent to 1% to 2% of current statement on eligibility of particular schemes. UK generating capacity. This represents a modest but useful contribution to our renewable energy and emission reduction targets. In addition, these small hydro schemes Solar Power: Feed-in Tariffs would ensure the active involvement of hundreds of businesses, communities and individuals in the transition to the low carbon economy. Sheryll Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what recent estimate he has made of the expenditure by the solar power industry in all stages of planning and development into solar DEFENCE photovoltaic installations above 1 megawatt since the Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations introduction of the feed-in tariff scheme. [49395] Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Gregory Barker: Information on development cost what his most recent assessment is of the (a) availability data are not collected as part of the administration of of and (b) adequacy of supply to British forces in the Feed-in Tariffs (FITs) scheme. Afghanistan of equipment support materials for protected military platforms; and if he will make a statement. Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for [49625] Energy and Climate Change with reference to the written ministerial statement of 18 March 2011, Official Report, Peter Luff [holding answer 28 March 2011]: The column 32WS, on feed-in-tariffs (review), for what reasons availability and supply of support materials for protected he has set a target rate of return of five per cent. for the military platforms is kept under constant review and solar photovoltaic feed-in-tariffs; and if he will make a replenishment action is initiated whenever required. statement. [48818] Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many urgent operational requirements have been Gregory Barker: Feed-in tariff (FITs) levels were implemented for platforms serving in Afghanistan (a) originally set to provide a target 5-8% return on investment with and (b) without a support and maintenance across all technologies. Solar photovoltaic (PV) tariffs contract in the latest period for which figures are were set at the lower end of this range to reflect the ease available; and if he will make a statement. [49736] of deployment; for example, solar PV installations up to 50kW do not require planning permission and are Peter Luff: Over £4.9 billion has been approved through unlikely to require complex grid connections. In the the Urgent Operational Requirement (UOR) process fast-track review DECC is proposing revised tariffs in on equipment to meet emerging threats and requirements the light of emerging evidence that PV capital costs for Afghanistan since Operation Herrick began. have fallen significantly since the start of the scheme During 2010, there were 71 modifications purchased and that large-scale projects are coming forward more under UOR arrangements fitted to existing fixed wing quickly than originally expected. The aim is to target aircraft, helicopters, armoured vehicles, protected patrol incentives towards smaller community and domestic vehicles and support vehicle platforms, in support of installations, while keeping overall costs within the available UK armed forces deployed in Afghanistan. Of these, budget. 63 required and had a support and maintenance contract. Armed Forces Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what recent representations Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence he has received from community groups on his decision what steps he is taking to ensure that the outcomes of to launch a fast-track review of solar photovoltaic planning round 11 in respect of capability are consistent feed-in-tariffs for installation with generating capacity with the policy objectives set out in the strategic defence above 50 kilowatts. [48819] and security review; and if he will make a statement. [49096] Gregory Barker: Since the announcement of the fast-track review of solar photovoltaics (PV) the Department Dr Fox: The policy objectives in the strategic defence have received some representation from community groups. and security review (SDSR) have provided the strategic We expect wider input from this from the consultation direction for the Department’s annual planning round, on the fast-track review which was launched on 18 March whose outcomes, therefore, will be consistent with the and will close on 6 May 2011. aims and objectives set out in the SDSR White Paper. 385W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 386W

Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence The precise number of personnel in theatre fluctuates if he will make it his policy to report to the House on a daily basis for a variety of reasons, including monthly on the adherence of each service to harmony mid-tour rest and recuperation, temporary absence for guidelines, including any instances of breaches and training, evacuation for medical reasons, the roulement their extent. [49738] of forces, visits and a range of other factors. We do not, therefore, publish actual figures for personnel deployed Nick Harvey: No. To help get the work/life balance in theatre. right for our service personnel, we have Harmony Guidelines for the length of time personnel spend away and the Armed Forces: Colchester interval that they should have between operational tours. These allow commanding officers to judge the situation Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence facing their personnel and give them the opportunity to (1) how much rent for void properties his Department take remedial measures where possible. They do not paid Annington Homes in Colchester constituency in provide an overall measure of manning. In addition, financial year 2010-11; [49570] Harmony figures are unlikely to change significantly month on month as they are calculated against a rolling (2) how many family houses on the defence estate in period ranging over years. the Colchester constituency are unoccupied. [49571]

Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Peter Luff: As the majority of service family what proportion of personnel in each armed service are accommodation (SFA) may be unoccupied for only in breach of their harmony guidelines; what assessment short periods and for various reasons between occupants, he has made of the effect of Operation Odyssey Dawn no calculation is made of the rent paid while SFA on the number of such people; and if he will make a properties are void. statement. [49739] As at 24 March 2011, 125 SFA properties were unoccupied. Peter Luff: Less than 1% of the Royal Navy, 6% of the Army and 5% of RAF personnel are operating Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence above Harmony guidelines. Operation Ellamy, the UK how many members of HM Armed Forces based at name for the NATO operation in Libya, is still in its Colchester Garrison are living in private sector early days and its duration remains unclear, as does the accommodation rented by his Department. [49573] eventual number of personnel deployed to the operation. As a result of this, it is not yet possible to assess the Peter Luff: As at 23 March 2011, 408 service personnel effect on harmony of this operation. Nonetheless, the based at Colchester were housed in substitute service impact of all periods of deployment on the harmony single accommodation (SSSA) properties. guidelines remains under scrutiny. SSSA is only ever used as a last resort in cases where service accommodation either does not exist or is not Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence available to an individual’s entitlement. Where a multi- whether armed forces personnel who are currently at occupant property is rented for SSSA, it will, as far as lower readiness level will be deployed during Operation possible, be used to capacity. Odyssey Dawn; and if he will make a statement. There are no families based at Colchester housed in [49740] substitute service family accommodation (SSFA). Nick Harvey: UK armed forces are operating as part of a coalition to enforce the United Nations Security Armed Forces: Conditions of Employment Council Resolution 1973. The UK component of this is known as Operation Ellamy. Operation Odyssey Dawn Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for refers to the US contribution. UK forces personnel will Defence what legal status the proposed tri-service military be activated through a graduated response as required covenant will have. [48982] to support Operation Ellamy. However, where specific gaps in capability exist, personnel at a lower level of Nick Harvey: Provisions in the Armed Forces Bill, readiness may be deployed. currently before Parliament, will require the Defence Secretary to present an armed forces covenant report to Armed Forces: Bahrain Parliament every year. Therefore, under this Government, for the first time the armed forces covenant will be Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for referenced in law. This demonstrates the commitment of Defence how many armed forces personnel of each this Government to rebuild the armed forces covenant. service are stationed in Bahrain. [48959] Armed Forces: Meat Nick Harvey: The following table shows the number of troops stationed in Bahrain: Mr Scott: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what steps his Department is taking to increase the Endorsed number (as at Service 28 March 11)1 proportion of meat served to the armed forces which is produced in Britain. [49439] Naval 110 Army 10 Peter Luff: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Air Force 10 given by the Minister for the Armed Forces, my hon. 1 Rounded to the nearest 10 personnel Friend the Member for North Devon (Nick Harvey), 387W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 388W on 15 November 2010, Official Report, column 555W, of their agreed engagement or commission period. The to the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith). costs of VO and medical discharges could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. C-704 Missiles Civil servants may leave or be dismissed on early retirement terms, with the financial consequences depending Mr Carswell: To ask the Secretary of State for on the individual’s circumstances. Where a pension is Defence what assessment he has made of the ability of paid early, current rules generally require it to be actuarially the SharpEye Solid-State Radar system to operate reduced so that there is no extra cost to the Department. C-704 missiles. [49582] But arrangements may be put in place to buy out the actuarial reduction where voluntary exit schemes are Peter Luff: The SharpEye is a low power navigation required to enable the Department to reduce civilian radar largely used in civil applications. The C-704 missile staff numbers; and before the Civil Service Compensation system can use target information from a wide variety Scheme was amended in 2010, some early retirements of radar systems, including the SharpEye. attracted an enhanced pension. Early payment of pension can be used for the purposes of medical retirement as Cougar well as for voluntary releases and redundancies. The numbers leaving on VO, medical discharge and Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence early retirement are set out in the following table: what the start date is for training exercise Cougar. [49778] 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

VO (military n/a n/a n/a 8,970 6,430 Nick Harvey [holding answer 29 March 2011]: Current personnel)1 planning assumptions are for the Responsive Force Medical 1,650 1,607 1,551 1,361 1,093 Task Group to achieve a deployment date of 26 April, discharge when it will start its Cougar training. (military personnel)2 Defence: Procurement Early 1,280 1,375 1,700 1,010 855 retirement (civil servants) 3 Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 Data are not kept in this format prior to 2008-09. Defence what work he expects to be undertaken on 2 These figures represent calendar years 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 and ships and submarines in each region in accordance with 2009. his Department’s Terms of Business Agreement with 3 These figures include MOD trading funds but exclude locally (a) Babcock and (b) BAe. [49566] engaged civilians and members of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary. Costs for release, where the exit involves the early Peter Luff: The Terms of Business Agreement (TOBA) payment of pension other than on an actuarially reduced with Babcock Marine (BM) provides a mechanism by basis, are not separately identifiable and could be provided which BM can be allocated work in the support of the only at disproportionate cost. Royal Navy’s surface ships and submarines, and in the support of Her Majesty’s Naval Base (HMNB) Clyde Departmental Public Expenditure and HMNB Devonport. The TOBA states that surface ship support work will be carried out at Devonport or Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Rosyth Dockyards. It also states that the deep maintenance Defence (1) whether a sanction will be applied if a of submarines will be carried out at Devonport Dockyard, guarantee of realistic budgets for development, procurement with some support work being carried out at HMNB and deployment is not fulfilled; [48977] Clyde. (2) with reference to his speech to the Institute of The BAE Systems Surface Ships (BAES SS) TOBA Civic Society of 22 February 2011, who is to (a) allocates BAES SS work on the design, build, and provide and (b) assess the guarantees of realistic budgets support of complex warships. Design and build work for development, procurement and deployment to be on complex warships by BAES SS is currently carried presented to Ministers. [48991] out in Portsmouth and at their shipyard in Scotstoun and Govan; support work conducted by BAES SS Dr Fox: Project teams are responsible for ensuring under the TOBA is carried out in Portsmouth. that project proposals are tautly and realistically costed, Departmental Early Retirement drawing on expert advice. Their proposals are then subject to scrutiny by independent assurance teams. The Ministry of Defence Investment Approvals Board Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence ensures that project approvals align with Defence priorities. how many of his Department’s staff have taken early The Defence Board and Ministers are ultimately responsible retirement in each of the last five years; and at what cost for ensuring that the equipment programme as a whole to his Department in each such year. [49310] is affordable and deliverable, and for taking the decisions that are required to achieve this. In particular I have Peter Luff: Staff exits are categorised in different asked the Permanent Secretary and the Chief of Defence ways for military personnel and civil servants. Materiel to examine our future programmes to ensure For military personnel, early exits consist of voluntary that their costs and risks are well understood and that outflows (VO) and medical discharges. VO is used to the budget set aside for them is appropriate. In addition, describe exits from trained UK regular forces which are I intend to chair a new Major Projects Review Board voluntarily generated by the individual before the end which will monitor major programmes on a quarterly 389W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 390W basis to ensure that they are on time and within budget, Frank Dobson: To ask the Secretary of State for to direct remedial action where necessary, and to hold Defence what estimate he has made of the cost to the those responsible to account. public purse of retaining HMS Ark Royal and its Harrier aircraft for the next four years. [48902] Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence with reference to his speech to the Institute of Peter Luff [holding answer 28 March 2011]: HMS Civic Society of 22 February 2011, whether he plans Ark Royal and the Harrier aircraft were withdrawn to publish the outcome of the examination of his from service at the end of 2010 as a consequence of Department’s future programmes which he has decisions taken during the Strategic Defence and Security commissioned. [48990] Review. While there are no plans to retain these capabilities in operational service, the costs of doing so would have Dr Fox: The examination of the Department’s future been broadly comparable to the savings we expect to programme is an internal process designed to inform achieve from withdrawing them. We estimate the savings ongoing work under Planning Round 2011. As such, we from withdrawing Ark Royal to be £10 million in 2011-12, have no intention of publishing the findings. £25 million in 2012-13, £35 million in 2013-14 and £35 million in 2014-15. Savings from retiring the Harrier Departmental Redundancy aircraft are estimated at around £900 million between now and 2018. Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many civil servants in his Department have been HMS Cumberland offered voluntary redundancy since April 2010; and if he will make a statement. [49189] Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence on what date HMS Cumberland is due to be Peter Luff: No records are kept of the numbers of decommissioned. [49921] staff who are offered voluntary redundancy and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. However, Peter Luff: HMS Cumberland is presently in the between April 2010 and 1 March 2011, some 370 civil Mediterranean supporting enforcement action against servants left the Ministry of Defence (including trading Libya under United Nations Security Council Resolution funds) on redundancy terms (this includes both voluntary 1973. We have decided that she should remain there and compulsory exits). These figures exclude other forms until she can be replaced by another suitably prepared of paid early releases, including redundancy avoidance and equipped destroyer or frigate. Because of this, her measures. withdrawal from service will be postponed from 1 April 2011 until around the end of the month. European Fighter Aircraft HMS Tireless: HMS Turbulent Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many Typhoon aircraft were grounded Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for because parts had been removed to keep other aircraft Defence whether he plans to make any part of the airborne on 9 March 2011. [48607] Defence Nuclear Safety Regulator’s report into the incidents on HMS Tireless and HMS Turbulent publicly Peter Luff: On 9 March 2011 three Typhoon aircraft available. [48968] were being used as donor airframes for cannibalised parts. This is a routine measure in the management of Peter Luff: I will place a copy of the Defence Nuclear the fast jet fleet. None of these aircraft were in the Safety Regulator’s investigation into ‘Babcock Event forward fleet. No 19720: Failure To Reinstate Primary Safety Systems’ HMS Ark Royal in the Library of the House before the end of May 2011, following a review to ascertain whether any sensitive information is required to be withheld. Frank Dobson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will reverse the decision to withdraw Major Projects Review Board HMS Ark Royal and its Harrier aircraft. [48901]

Peter Luff [holding answer 28 March 2011]: No. In Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for the context of the budgetary position we inherited from Defence (1) what criteria are applied to determine the previous Government, the strategic defence and whether a procurement project is classified as a project security review set out the arguments underpinning the of concern by his Department’s Major Projects Review Government’s decision to decommission HMS Ark Royal Board; [49001] and remove the Harrier from service. It would have (2) on how many occasions his Department’s Major been unsustainable to retain a fleet of four fast jet types Projects Review Board has met; [49002] over the next decade. (3) who sits on his Department’s Major Projects Recent events in North Africa have shown that the Review Board. [49003] UK has extensive basing and over-flying rights to enable the full and effective projection of air power overseas Dr Fox: As I announced last month, the Ministry of with our Typhoon and Tornado fleets. Harrier aircraft Defence’s Major Projects Review Board (MPRB) will cannot carry the range of weapons and reconnaissance meet on a quarterly basis. The first meeting of the capability that has been required for missions over MPRB will therefore be held early in the first quarter of Libya. financial year 2011-12. 391W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 392W

The MPRB will be chaired by myself supported by Event Planned expenditure (£) the Minister for Defence Equipment Support and Technology, the Chief of Defence Materiel and other Stirling Military Show 34,000 officials as appropriate. Projects will be reviewed in terms of performance, Royal Air Force Cosford Air 0 cost, and time. Projects forecasting significant slippage, Show cost growth, or performance shortfalls would lead to Royal Air Force Waddington 0 their being placed on the “projects of concern” list. International Air Show Royal Air Force Leuchars Air 0 Merville Barracks Show Note: Most of the above events are sponsored by commercial Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence organisations and as a result involve negligible costs to the Ministry how much his Department paid for renting accommodation of Defence. These costs are largely concerned with marketing, and in the private sector for those military personnel for are recouped through ticket sales or from the commercial partner. whom there is no accommodation available at Merville Barracks, Colchester in financial year 2010-11. [49572] Nimrod Aircraft Peter Luff: To date in financial year 2010-11, a total of 186 service personnel identified as being based at Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Merville Barracks, were accommodated in substitute Defence how long the Nimrod R1 will remain operational; service single accommodation (SSSA). A total of 68 what factors were considered in the decision to postpone SSSA properties were rented for this purpose at a total the retirement of the Nimrod R1; and what plans he has cost of £687,684, for the future use of the aircraft in theatre. [47827] SSSA is only ever used as a last resort in cases where service accommodation either does not exist or is not Dr Fox: The original decision to withdraw the Nimrod available to an individual’s entitlement. R1 from service was taken in 2008 by the previous Where a multi-occupant property is rented for SSSA, Government. However, in view of current events in it will, as far as possible, be used to capacity. Libya one Nimrod R1 aircraft is being kept in the region for up to three months in support of UNSCR Military Tattoos 1973. This is a pragmatic decision given the aircraft is already in the region but is subject to continuous review Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for of the Alliance’s operational requirement. Defence how many (a) military tattoos, (b) military festivals and (c) other military events open to the Peacekeeping Operations public will be held in 2011; and how much expenditure will be incurred by his Department in respect of each Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for such event. [40140] Defence how many urgent operational requirement requests were made in each of the last five years; how Nick Harvey: In addition to Armed Forces Day and many such requests resulted in an equipment purchase; Welcome Home Parades, that give members of the and what the total cost of such purchases was in each public the opportunity to show their support for our year. [49542] Service personnel returning from operations, there are two Military Tattoos planned for 2011 and their associated Peter Luff: Over the last five years, the Ministry of planned expenditure is shown in the following table: Defence has approved some 820 requests for funding for equipment through the urgent operational requirements Event Planned expenditure (£) process for Iraq and Afghanistan, at a cost of around Royal Edinburgh Military Tattoo 0 £5.7 billion. Based on centrally available records the Royal International Air Tattoo 0 breakdown for each of the last five financial years is estimated as follows: The following table lists military festivals and other military events currently planned to take place during Total approval cost1 2011: Financial year (FY) Number approved1 (£ million) 2006-07 230 790 Event Planned expenditure (£) 2007-08 240 1,550 Royal Naval Air Station 0 2008-09 150 1,400 Yeovilton Air Show 2009-10 100 840 Royal Naval Air Station 0 2010-11 100 1,130 Culdrose Air Show Total 820 5,710 1 Nearest 10 Aldershot Garrison Show 0 These figures include the protected mobility package Abingdon Station Open Day 0 (financial year 2008-09) and light protected patrol vehicle Royal Engineer Association 0 Open Day programme (financial year 2010-11). 4 Regiment Royal Artillery 0 For financial year 2010-11, the figures given are the Company Open Day approval for the financial year to date, noting that it is Preston Military Show 20,000 not yet complete. 393W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 394W

The estimate of the number of requests for funding Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for we have approved includes some business cases that Defence what estimate he has made of the increase in have been subject to re-approvals as requirements have the cost of the Trident replacement programme as a evolved, and some that will have been provided for both result of delays introduced by project extensions. Iraq and Afghanistan. For these reasons, a single capability [49604] may have been counted more than once in these numbers. Nick Harvey: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Radioactive Waste given by the Minister for Defence Equipment, Support and Technology, my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Worcestershire (Peter Luff), on 14 March 2011, Official pursuant to the answer of 22 March 2011, Official Report, column 7, to the hon. Member for Bolton West Report, column 947W, on radioactive waste, if he will (Julie Hilling). send for publication in the Official Report the text of the letter sent to the hon. Member for Newport West. [49789] PRIME MINISTER Peter Luff: The information requested will take some time to collate and I will write to the hon. Member as Yemen soon as this is completed. All letters following up answers to parliamentary questions are published in the Official Keith Vaz: To ask the Prime Minister on what date he Report. last spoke to the President of Yemen. [49729] Saudi Arabia: Military Aid The Prime Minister: I refer the right hon. Member to the answer given by the Secretary of State for Foreign Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Defence (1) how many short-term training teams have Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), on 24 March been sent to the Saudi Arabian National Guard in each 2011, Official Report, column 1121. year since 2007; and how many courses taught by such teams covered (a) internal security training, (b) public order training and (c) sniper training; [49808] (2) whether the British Military Mission to the Saudi COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Arabian National Guard is still in operation. [49825] Homelessness: Finance Nick Harvey: The British Military Mission to the Saudi Arabian National Guard continues to operate as Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities an essential part of our bilateral relationship. and Local Government how much his Department has Training forms an integral part of the British Military allocated to each local authority in England under each Mission’s activity. category of homelessness grant for 2011-12; and what criteria were used in determining such allocations. It is not possible to provide a breakdown of the [49485] details of individual programmes without prejudicing relations between the UK and other states. Grant Shapps: Despite the record deficit inherited we Tornado Aircraft are maintaining investment in homelessness grant at £100 million a year for each of the next four years. For 2011-12, we have announced allocations of £81.5 million Frank Dobson: To ask the Secretary of State for for local authorities and £18.5 million for the voluntary Defence what estimate he has made of the cost to the sector. As part of our reforms to reduce the number of public purse of retaining the Tornado aircraft fleet for separate local authority grants, a further £8.5 million to the next four years. [48903] tackle fraud and under-occupation has been integrated to provide a single allocation of Preventing Homelessness Peter Luff [holding answer 28 March 2011]: I refer the Grant for local authorities in 2011-12 totalling £90 million. right hon. Member to the answer I gave on 24 November A list of allocations of Preventing Homelessness 2010, Official Report, columns 318-9W, to the hon. Grant to individual local authorities in 2011-12 has Member for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt). been placed in the Library of the House. Trident There are a number of factors that were considered in determining allocations, but a very significant one is the Nick Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence need to support work to tackle rough sleeping. We have on what date payment is due for items already commissioned also sought to maintain the level of grant for individual for Trident replacement; and what estimate he has made authorities, including rolling forward the additional of the cost to the public purse of items commissioned £10 million allocated to London authorities during for which payment has not yet been made. [45210] 2010-11 to support implementation of welfare reform measures. Westminster council’s allocation for 2011-12 Peter Luff: I have interpreted this question as relating is £8.325 million. to long lead items for the replacement Vanguard class These allocations have been confirmed for 2011-12 submarine. There are no outstanding payments against and published as provisional figures at the same level commitments made for long lead items ahead of the for 2012-13. We intend to consult in due course on initial gate decision. proposed allocations for 2013-14 and 2014-15. 395W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 396W

Solar Power: Planning Permission Mr Hurd: Phil Redmond has not resigned. He remains committed to the Liverpool big society vanguard pilot Sheryll Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for and continues to work closely with the Government to Communities and Local Government how many solar address barriers in the way of action to re-energise photovoltaic schemes exceeding 1 megawatt in (a) volunteering in the city. The Cabinet Office has no plans Cornwall and Devon and (b) the UK have received to assess the progress of the vanguard pilot. planning permission since the inception of the feed-in tariff scheme. [49397] Departmental Meetings

Robert Neill: Information on planning permissions Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet for solar photovoltaic schemes exceeding 1 MW,including Office on how many occasions Cabinet Office Briefing when they were granted, will be available from individual Room has met in 2011 to date; on what date each local planning authorities but is not collected by this meeting was held, and for what duration; which Ministers Department. The Renewable Energy Planning Database, attended each meeting; and what the agenda was of accessible via the Department for Energy and Climate each meeting. [49947] Change’s website, includes data on solar photovoltaic projects but the statistics may not include all recently Mr Maude: COBR has met a number of times this consented developments because of the time lag in year, including to co-ordinate the response to events in collecting data. Libya and Japan. Information about the actual dates, duration, attendance and agendas of individual meetings are not normally disclosed both on grounds of national security and because they relate to internal discussion CABINET OFFICE and advice. National Security Council Departmental Public Appointments Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office on which dates the National Security Council Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet has met in 2011 to date; and in each such case (a) how Office which public bodies sponsored by his Department many Ministers attended, (b) which Ministers (a) have been and (b) are to be closed, merged or attended, (c) for how long the Council met and (d) reorganised following his appointment; and how many what items were on the agenda. [49949] (i) women and (ii) men who are public appointees at each body will no longer hold such an appointment in Mr Letwin: The National Security Council is a Cabinet consequence. [47110] Committee that typically meets once a week for an hour to consider matters relating to National Security, Foreign Mr Maude: The coalition Government are committed Policy, Defence, International Relations and Development, to increasing the accountability of public bodies, and Resilience, Energy and Resource Security. Since January this involves reducing their number and their cost to the 2011 it has met on the following dates: 11, 18 and taxpayer. The proposals for the majority of bodies 25 January; 1, 8, 15, 25 and 28 February; and 1, 4, 8, 15, across all Departments was announced and published 17 and 22 March. on 14 October 2010. An updated list reflecting changes since October 2010 has been published on the Cabinet Consistent with longstanding practice, information Office website. relating to the proceedings of Cabinet and Cabinet committees, including agendas and attendance, is generally As a result of the reforms to the Cabinet Office public not disclosed as to do so would put at risk the public bodies, the number of women and men who will no interest in both collective responsibility and the full and longer hold public appointment positions is as follows: frank discussion of policy by Ministers. Ministers will more effectively reach collective decisions if they are Public appointment positions that will no able to debate questions of policy freely and in confidence. longer be held Decisions taken by Cabinet or its Committees are Body Reform Male Female binding on all members of the Government under the principle of collective decision-making, irrespective of Capacitybuilders No longer a 62 whether they are able to attend a particular meeting or NDPB not. The maintenance of this convention is fundamental Commission for the No longer a 31 Compact NDPB to the continued effectiveness of Cabinet government, OCS Advisory Body No longer a 77 and is therefore in the public interest. NDPB Big Society Initiative Civil Service Appeals No longer a 13 7 Board NDPB Government Strategic No longer a 56 Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Marketing Advisory NDPB Office (1) what representations he has received on the Board resignation of Phil Redmond as Chair of the Liverpool Main Honours No longer a 00’ vanguard big society pilot; and if he will make a statement’ Advisory Committee NDPB [39922] National School of No longer a 00 (2) if he will assess the progress made by the vanguard Government NMD pilot for the big society in Liverpool at the point at Security Commission No longer a 30 NDPB which it ended. [40335] 397W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 398W

INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY month to a member of staff with two children under five working STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE full time for an hon. Member would receive under (a) the salary supplement scheme and (b) the salary sacrifice scheme in the Childcare Salary Supplement Scheme latest period for which figures are available; and what consultation IPSA undertook on the equity of the changes made to such childcare support arrangements. Caroline Lucas: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, The financial benefit per month based on a salary supplement representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent scheme would be £336 per month for an employee who has two Parliamentary Standards Authority, for what reasons children under the age of 5 years. This £336 would be subject to the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority income tax and national insurance contribution and the exact decided to (a) remove the childcare salary supplement amount will therefore vary per employee. The benefit for employees scheme for new hon. Members’ staff and replace it with in receipt of childcare vouchers is the difference between the net a salary sacrifice scheme, (b) take the childcare salary and gross amount of the salary sacrifice, which can be up to £243 supplement scheme payments for returning hon. Members’ per month, irrespective of the number of children they have. staff from the staffing budget rather than a central IPSA consulted in January 2010 on whether to provide childcare budget and (c) operate different childcare support support but did not consult on what system of support to provide. arrangements for new hon. Members’ staff and returning Following this consultation, IPSA took the decision to retain the salary supplement system for staff already in receipt of this hon. members’ staff. [44623] support, but to offer the staff of new MPs, and IPSA’s own staff, a salary sacrifice scheme for childcare vouchers on the basis that Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls such schemes are common across large parts of the public and within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary private sector. Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. Letter from Scott Woolveridge, dated March 2011: Consultants: Recruitment As Interim Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Helen Jones: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, Question asking for what reasons the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority decided to: representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, what the cost to a) remove the childcare salary supplement scheme for new members’ staff and replace it with a salary sacrifice scheme; the public purse was of the recruitment consultancy services used for the recruitment of the Independent b) take the childcare salary supplement scheme payments for Parliamentary Standards Authority’s incoming compliance returning members’ staff from the staffing budget rather than a central budget and officer. [45797] c) operate different childcare support arrangements for new members’ staff and returning members’ staff Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls IPSA took the decision to offer new MPs’ staff members a within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary salary sacrifice scheme for childcare vouchers on the basis that Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. this type of scheme is common practice across large parts of the Letter from Scott Woolveridge, dated March 2011: public and private sector. As acting Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary The childcare salary supplement scheme payments for returning Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary MPs’ staff is taken from the staffing budget on the grounds that Question asking the cost to the public purse for the recruitment these payments form part of MPs’ overall staffing costs and consultancy services used for the recruitment of the incoming should therefore fall under this budget category. compliance officer. The reason IPSA operates separate arrangements for returning IPSA agreed to a fee of £1,500 + VAT for the recruitment MPs’ staff and new MPs’ staff is because IPSA did not want to consultancy services used for the recruitment of the Compliance alter existing contractual arrangements in this regard for returning Officer for IPSA, an office provided for in statute by the Parliamentary MPs’ staff, but wanted to bring the practice for new MPs’ staff Standards Act 2009, as amended by the Constitutional Reform into line with the practice that is common across most sectors. and Governance Act 2010. Caroline Lucas: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, The recruitment consultancy’s services included providing assistance in drawing up a job specification, preparing and placing the representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent advertisement for the job in the Sunday Times, updating and Parliamentary Standards Authority, what estimate the advertising the vacancy on a dedicated micro-website, and undertaking Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority (IPSA) an initial sift of the 60 applications received in response to the has made of the financial benefit per month to a advertisement. member of staff with two children under five working full-time for an hon. Member under (a) the salary Personnel: Pay supplement scheme and (b) the salary sacrifice scheme in the latest period for which figures are available; what consultation IPSA undertook on the equity of the Mr Spellar: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, changes made to such childcare support arrangements; representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent and if he will make a statement. [44624] Parliamentary Standards Authority, pursuant to the answer of 14 March 2011, Official Report, column 3W, Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls on employment, whether the three members of staff within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary received any payment on their departure from the Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority. Letter from Scott Woolveridge, dated March 2011: [49474] As Interim Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls Question asking what estimate the Independent Parliamentary within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority (IPSA) has made of the financial benefit per Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. 399W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 400W

Letter from Scott Woolveridge, dated March 2011: applications there may be in respect of those who died As acting Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary pre-2003, we will not know by 31 March 2011 whether Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary all claims have come forward. However, the Skipton Question asking, pursuant to the Answer of 14 March 2011, Fund will consider registrations that are made after Official Report, column 3W, on employment, whether the three 31 March 2011, on a case by case basis, where there is a members of staff received any payment on their departure from valid reason for the applicant to have missed the registration the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority. deadline. The members of staff did not receive any payment on their departure. Stress Food Standards Agency: Pensions

Chris Ruane: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for Health representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent what proportion of the proposed meat hygiene inspection Parliamentary Standards Authority, what arrangements charges will be allocated to the payments in respect of are in place in the Independent Parliamentary Standards pensions of staff of the Food Standards Agency. [49389] Authority to (a) reduce levels of work-based stress and (b) provide assistance to staff diagnosed with such Anne Milton: The full cost of delivering official controls stress. [48197] to the Great Britain meat industry is budgeted at £55 million for 2011-12. This figure includes two elements of pension Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls cost to the Food Standards Agency (FSA) as follows: within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary (1) Employer pension contributions of £2.9 million. Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. (2) Pension deficit cost of £4.7 million. (The total cost to the Letter from Scott Woolveridge, dated March 2011: FSA is estimated by external actuaries to be £5.6 million of which the proportion included in the cost of industry work is £4.7 million). As Interim Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary This cost is volatile, varies with actuarial assumptions, and future Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary charges will be adjusted in line with any fluctuations. Question asking what arrangements are in place to a) reduce levels of work-based stress and b) provide assistance to staff Therefore, the proportion of pension cost in the total diagnosed with such stress. cost of delivering official controls is £7.6 million out of IPSA seeks to promote a healthy work-life balance for its a total of £55 million (14%). employees. IPSA has recently developed a stress risk assessment which managers will shortly start using to identify symptoms of stress in both individuals and teams. The assistance provided will Hospitals: Admissions depend on the cause of stress. Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many and what proportion of emergency HEALTH readmissions to hospital in each NHS hospital trust in England occurred within 30 days of discharge in each Blood: Contamination of the last 13 years. [49805]

Jason McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Simon Burns: Emergency readmissions are normally Health (1) if he will assess the merits of allowing those defined as emergency admissions occurring within 28 days who are newly-eligible for compensation for contaminated of discharge following an admission for the same patient. blood to claim funds from the Skipton Fund on an The proportion of such readmissions occurring within ongoing basis instead of imposing a deadline of 31 March 30 days of discharge is therefore, by definition, 100%. A 2011; [49412] table containing information on the number of emergency (2) whether he undertook any consultation before readmissions by national health service hospital trust establishing a deadline of 31 March 2011 for claims by for the years 1999-2000 to 2008-09 has been placed in those newly-eligible for compensation in respect of the Library. contaminated blood to claim funds from the Skipton Fund; [49430] (3) if he will extend the deadline for claimants of NHS Trusts compensation for contaminated blood to the Skipton Fund in cases where it can be demonstrated that it was Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for not possible to make claimants aware of new Health if he will take steps to ensure that small and arrangements within the time allowed; [49431] medium-sized businesses are notified of any contract (4) for what reasons he established a deadline of tendered for by NHS Trusts. [49950] 31 March 2011 for claims to the Skipton Fund by those affected by contaminated blood. [49432] Mr Simon Burns: The Department is committed to encouraging the national health service to comply with Anne Milton: When the deadline of 31 March 2011 the transparency requirements that apply to all Government was announced 10 January 2011, it gave potential claimants bodies as set out in the Cabinet Office guidance. This 12 weeks to register their intention to make a claim with includes the requirement for procurers to publish tender the Skipton Fund. It is not essential for claimants to information so that small and medium-sized businesses obtain all of the necessary evidence to support their have good notice of all tender opportunities. Indeed the claim by that date. The deadline was decided without Department will shortly be communicating with the consultation. Due to the uncertainty of how many NHS to remind them of these requirements. 401W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 402W

NHS: Surveys Surgery

Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for pursuant to the answer of 3 December 2010, Official Health how many operations in each acute hospital Report, column 1074W, on NHS: surveys, when he trust were cancelled in each of the last 13 years. [49806] expects data from the findings of the Ipsos MORI six-monthly surveys from March 2008 to March 2010 Mr Simon Burns: The number of operations which on public perceptions of the NHS to be published on are cancelled for non-clinical reasons on or after the day his Department’s website; and when he expects data of admission, has been published by the Department from the December 2010 survey to be made available. on a quarterly basis since 1996-97. Trust level data were [49603] collected for the first time in 2001-02 and are not available prior to then. Information on the number of Mr Simon Burns: Since 2000, the Department has cancelled elective operations in each acute trust for the commissioned, from Ipsos MORI, tracking surveys of financial years 2001-02 to 2010-11 year-to date is contained public attitudes towards the national health service and in tables which have been placed in the Library. social care. The reports from March 2008 to March 2010 have been published on the Department’s website Venous Thromboembolism at: www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/PublishedSurvey/ Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for ListOfSurveySince1990/Generalsurveys/DH_4129933 Health whether the Venous Thromboembolism (VTE) We are awaiting the final report from Ipsos MORI Prevention Board and the VTE Three Professions Group for the survey conducted during November/December were consulted on the development of VTE indicators 2010. Future surveys will be published in line with the in the NHS Safety Thermometer recently published by Department’s freedom of information publication scheme. the Quality, Innovation, Prevention and Productivity Safe Care Safety Express workstream. [49586] Pressure Sores Mr Simon Burns: In developing the NHS Safety Thermometer the Quality, Innovation, Prevention and John Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Productivity Safe Care workstream worked with whether his Department has any plans to require (a) approximately 100 national health service organisations foundation trusts and (b) acute trusts to measure the to develop an audit tool to measure the incidence of incidence of pressure sores; and if he will make a four key safety issues: pressure ulcers, venous statement. [49398] thromboembolism (VTE), falls and catheter use. The Safe Care Workstream have been invited to Mr Simon Burns: All foundation trusts and trusts are present at the next VTE Prevention Board in July to required to report via the Hospital Episodes Statistics agree the next steps for the work in the context of the (HES) dataset. Pressure sores (decubitus ulcer) should planned inclusion of indicators on VTE as part of the be recorded in HES under the ICD-10 code L89. Depth Outcomes Framework for the NHS. The VTE Three of coding varies significantly between trusts, and pressure Professions Group are represented on this Board. sores are often a secondary diagnosis; measuring the incidence of pressure sores is complex, as it requires Wheelchairs recording of whether or not a pressure sore was present on admission to hospital. Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health The NHS Information Centre is currently developing which hospitals have indicated to his Department that a Safety Thermometer, which measures prevalence of they have a shortage of wheelchairs. [49440] pressure sores (and a number of other avoidable adverse events) more systematically in a group of foundation Mr Simon Burns: The Department has received no trusts and trusts who have volunteered to take part. representations from hospitals indicating a shortage of wheelchairs. Processed Food: Labelling

Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether his Department has made an estimate of the WORK AND PENSIONS quantity of processed food sold in Britain which is not labelled as genetically modified (GM) but has been Access to Work Programme produced using GM food. [49451] Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Anne Milton: Under European Union regulations, Work and Pensions under his proposed changes to the food labels must indicate when the food contains or Access to Work scheme, at what stage of the job-seeking consists of genetically modified (GM) organisms, or process funding will be provided to a claimant. [10614] contains ingredients that are produced from GM organisms. However, this labelling requirement does not apply to Maria Miller: Access to Work provides financial help small proportions of GM ingredients (below 0.9%) if towards the extra costs faced by people with a disability they are accidentally present. Information on the quantity in work, where this goes beyond what would be reasonable of food that contains unlabelled GM ingredients is not for an employer to meet. Access to Work supported available. 37,210 disabled people during 2009-10. 403W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 404W

From 9 December 2010, disabled job seekers have Appeals involving a self- been able to find out immediately if they are eligible for Total appeals employed parent Access to Work support by completing a short online questionnaire at Directgov. If eligible, they will be able Total 36,441 6,955 to print off a new ‘Pre-Employment Eligibility Letter’ Note: which will help when applying for jobs and can be Records are based on the calendar year. shown to prospective employers. I hope you find this answer helpful. The Government have announced an independent Departmental Public Bodies review of the employment support they provide to people with disability-related barriers to work. This review is designed to ensure that Department for Tessa Jowell: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Work and Pensions’ specialist disability employment and Pensions what estimate his Department has made programmes provide the very best value for money and of the level of savings which will accrue from the meet the needs of disabled people in finding and sustaining abolition of the Disability Employment Advisory work and building fulfilling careers. The review will Committee. [48691] include Access to Work. Maria Miller: On 16 March 2011, Official Report, The review will report in summer 2011 with columns 9-10WS, the Minister for the Cabinet Office recommendations on how existing specialist support for and Paymaster General, the right hon. Member for disabled people can better serve the Department’s wide Horsham (Mr Maude) issued a written ministerial statement ranging customer base. updating Parliament on progress on public bodies reform. That statement also announced that Departments estimate Children: Maintenance cumulative administrative savings of at least £2.6 billion will flow from public bodies over the spending review Neil Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for period. Work and Pensions how many disputes between partners I estimate net overall administrative savings from the about levels of child support payable in cases where one Disability Employment Advisory Committee over the or both former partners were self-employed the Child spending review period of £314,000. Support Agency and its successor recorded in each of This is our best estimate of planned net savings to the last five years; and if he will make a statement. emerge from these reforms. The Disability Employment [48577] Advisory Committee has closed with effect from 30 November 2010. Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission is responsible for the child maintenance system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner Departmental Regulation to write to the hon. Member with the information requested and I have seen the response. Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Letter from Stephen Geraghty: and Pensions how many regulations sponsored by his Department have been (a) introduced since 22 November In reply to your recent Parliamentary Questions about the Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive 2010 and (b) revoked since 12 May 2010. [44367] reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance Chris Grayling: The information requested has been and Enforcement Commission. placed in the Library. You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, how many disputes between partners about levels of child support Disability Living Allowance: Scotland payable in cases where one or both former partners were self-employed the Child Support Agency and its successor recorded in each of the last five years; and if he will make a statement. [48577] Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work If a client believes that the decisions taken on their case are and Pensions how many people in (a) Rutherglen and incorrect they can dispute this and ask for the decision to be Hamilton West constituency, (b) South Lanarkshire reconsidered. The nature of disputes is not routinely recorded by and (c) Scotland have had disability living allowance the Child Support Agency. If the client feels that their issue has withdrawn since May 2010. [34375] not been resolved they can escalate the decision to appeal which is an independent review of the decision by the Tribunal Service. This information is recorded and is provided as follows. Maria Miller: Information is not available on the National Statistics datasets to identify disability living The table shows the total number of appeals against a Child allowance claimants that have had their claim withdrawn. Support Agency decision including the number where one or both former partners were self-employed. The level of child The Department does collect some limited management support payable may be one of several reasons for an appeal in a information on the outcomes of initial claims for disability single case and a more detailed breakdown is not available. living allowance, however it is not of sufficient quality or completeness to provide a robust answer. This Appeals involving a self- information does not include subsequent withdrawals Total appeals employed parent by the claimant or as a result of fraud investigation. In 2006 7,666 1,541 addition, it is only available at processing unit level, not 2007 7,356 1,550 constituency, local authority area or country. 2008 8,703 1,619 Information is available to identify the number of 2009 6,918 1,089 claimants with entitlement to disability living allowance 2010 5,798 1,156 where the payment has been suspended, for example if 405W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 406W they are in hospital. At May 2010, there were 27,740 Employment and support allowance claimants by payment type: Great cases with entitlement to disability living allowance Britain, May 2010 where the payment has been suspended. Claimants with a Credit only cases contributory element Work- In Related In Work-Related Disability Living Allowance: Wales Support Activity Support Activity Group Group Group Group

Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work People 6,340 1,670 120 20 and Pensions what discussions he has had with the with Welsh Assembly Government on his proposals to remove cancer the mobility element of disability living allowance for Notes: those resident in care homes. [43148] 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10; totals may not sum due to rounding. 2. Benefit type—The type of employment and support allowance Maria Miller: I have written to the Deputy Minister (ESA) is defined as pay status at the caseload date—this may differ to for Social Services at the Welsh Assembly (Gwenda the status at the start or end of the claim. Thomas) about this and disability living allowance reform 3. Employment and support allowance replaced incapacity benefit more generally. and income support paid on the grounds of incapacity for new claims from 27 October 2008. I guarantee that this measure is not intended to 4. This analysis does not include those with unknown or assessment reduce the mobility of residents in care homes. It aims phase/stage. to remove any overlap, not remove severely disabled 5. Phase/stage of ESA claim is only available from February 2010 onwards. The phase is derived from payment details held on the people’s ability to get out and about. We are now source system. considering mobility provision in care homes as part of 6. Information on whether an ESA claimant is disabled as defined by our wider reform of disability living allowance, not the Equality Act 2010 is not readily available, therefore the whole beforehand. claimant figure is provided. 7. ‘People with cancer’ is by primary assessment only and includes In addition, officials at the Department for Work and malignant neoplasms, benign neoplasms and neoplasms of uncertain Pensions are in regular contact with their counterparts or unknown behaviour. in the Wales Office as work on reform of disability 8. ‘Credits only cases’ includes those who exceed the means testing living allowance and its replacement with personal threshold for income-based ESA. Source: independence payment progresses. In addition, officials DWP Information Directorate: Work and Pensions Longitudinal for the Welsh Assembly are members of the cross-Whitehall Study. working group on reform of disability living allowance and have been sent updates. Employment and Support Allowance: Kirkcaldy

Mr Gordon Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Employment and Support Allowance: Disability Work and Pensions how many people in Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath constituency have been in receipt of Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for employment and support allowance payments for more Work and Pensions what recent estimate he has made than one year. [37453] of the number of (a) disabled people and (b) people with cancer on contributory-based employment and Maria Miller: Information on the numbers of claimants support allowance (ESA) in the Work-Related Activity who have been receiving employment and support allowance Group who exceed the means testing threshold for for over 1 year (as at May 2010) is as follows: income-based ESA. [45575] More than one year Maria Miller: The information requested is given as Great Britain 114,310 follows. Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath 190 All employment and support allowance claimants: Great Britain, Notes: May 2010 1. Case load figures are rounded to the nearest 10; some additional disclosure control has also been applied. Total number Work-Related 2. ESA data are now available on the Department’s website at of claimants Support Group Activity Group http://83.244.183.180/100pc/tabtool.html 3. ESA replaced incapacity benefit and income support paid on the All 527,120 39,110 109,270 grounds of incapacity for new claims from 27 October 2008. claimants 4. Data include those claimants receiving “credits only”. People 20,030 8,200 2,250 Source: with DWP Information Directorate: Work and Pensions Longitudinal cancer Study. Employment and support allowance claimants by payment type: Great Funeral Payments Britain, May 2010 Claimants with a Credit only cases contributory element Iain Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Work- and Pensions what plans he has for the future of his In Related In Work-Related Department’s arrangements for funeral payments and Support Activity Support Activity related matters; what recent (a) discussions he has had Group Group Group Group with and (b) representations he has received from All 21,470 57,600 340 730 others on funeral payments and related matters; and if claimants he will make a statement. [48813] 407W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 408W

Steve Webb: Funeral payments are not being considered Steve Webb: We do not have comprehensive information as part of the wider plans for reform of the Social Fund in this area. In respect of credit unions, there are a high as announced in the “White Paper Universal Credit: number of growth fund loan users who also have declared welfare that works”. Funeral payments will sit outside that they have a social fund loan with the average universal credit and will continue to be delivered by the amount across the country being 31%, with a range of Department. 12% in East of England and 59% in the North East I met representatives of the All Party Parliamentary (figures to February 2011). Group for Funerals and Bereavement and the National Association of Funeral Directors on the 6 of December Social Fund: Airdrie 2010. At that meeting we discussed a range of issues including the powers we are taking in the Welfare Pamela Nash: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Reform Bill to extend access to social fund budgeting and Pensions how many Social Fund (a) budgeting loans to include funeral costs and maternity items. This loans, (b) crisis loans and (c) community care grants change will provide additional support to those on low for the purpose of buying television sets over the value incomes at expensive times in their lives. of (i) £500 and (ii) £1,000 were made in Airdrie and Shotts constituency in each of the last five years. [48854] Housing Benefit: Jobseeker’s Allowance Steve Webb: In the case of budgeting loans, applicants Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for are asked to tick which of seven categories they need Work and Pensions what definition of reasonable job help for, but are not asked to specify the items they offer his Department plans to use in determining whether require. Television sets would come under the category a person in receipt of jobseeker’s allowance should ‘to buy furniture or household equipment’. Data are continue to be entitled to housing benefit. [46041] not available on the number of awards for each category. The number of crisis loans or community care grants Steve Webb: As now, where a claimant does not initially awarded for the purpose of buying television demonstrate good cause or reason when failing to apply sets over the value of (i) £500 or (ii) £1,000 to residents for, or accept, a job when informed of that job by an of Airdrie and Shotts constituency in each of the financial employment officer of the Department, or where a years 2005-06 to 2009-10 was extremely low, being claimant fails to avail him or herself of a suitable recorded as nil or negligible. employment opportunity, then that claimant’s jobseeker’s Notes: allowance may be subject to a sanction. 1. The information provided is Management Information. Our The imposition of such a sanction would have no preference is to answer all parliamentary questions using Official/ impact on entitlement for housing benefit. Entitlement National Statistics but in this case we only have Management to housing benefit will remain as now, with receipt of Information available. It is not quality assured to the same extent income-based jobseeker’s allowance providing linked as Official/National Statistics and there are some issues with the entitlement to full eligible housing benefit (which continues data, for example, the information given does not include applications which were processed clerically and had not been entered on to even when a JSA sanction is imposed). the Social Fund Computer System by the end of the relevant Under proposals in the welfare reform White Paper, financial year. ‘Universal Credit: welfare that works’, where a jobseeker’s 2. Data are available for initial awards only. No information is allowance claimant fails to accept a job offer, he or she available on the number of awards of the type described which will be liable to a sanction of three months for a first were made after review. failure, six months for a second and then three years for 3. Exact numbers have not been given for data protection reasons. a third failure. ‘Nil or negligible’ means less than five. Source: Poverty: Children Department for Work and Pensions Social Fund Policy, Budget and Management Information System. Gordon Birtwistle: To ask the Secretary of State for Social Security Benefits: Disability Work and Pensions what steps his Department plans to take to reach the Government’s targets for the ending Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for of child poverty. [43446] Work and Pensions if he will put in place measures to ensure that disabled people in (a) North Swindon Maria Miller: The Government are committed to constituency and (b) England are made aware of (i) tackling child poverty, as the coalition document affirms. policy changes that may affect them and (ii) the We will be stating how we intend to do this in the support that is available in dealing with such changes. forthcoming child poverty strategy, to be published [38309] shortly. Maria Miller: The Treasury published the document, Social Fund “Overview of Impact of the Spending Review 2010 on Equalities”alongside the spending review announcement. Stella Creasy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work And we have published a summary of the changes and Pensions what assessment he has made of the (a) which affect disabled people on the Department for capacity and (b) propensity of applicants for support Work and Pensions’ website at: from the Social Fund to access credit from (i) www.dwp.gov.uk/adviser/updates/spending-review-2010 mainstream providers, (ii) high-cost credit lenders and where people are able to register for updates to help (iii) credit unions. [49783] keep them fully informed. 409W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 410W

We work with disabled people, who can tell us about I have met with a number of disability organisations the overall effect of public policy and services on their and other bodies to discuss the future of the Independent lives, in order to inform policy and strategy development. Living Fund. These include the Chair of Equality 2025, We will continue to communicate as widely as possible the All Party Parliamentary Group oh Disability, and with disabled people about how we can make reforms the Disability Charities Consortium and the Disabled which enable economic recovery, while ensuring that Peoples Organisations Group. the impact on disabled people and other disadvantaged It is important to remember that local authorities groups remains proportionate. have primary responsibility for the care of disabled people. Payments from the Independent Living Fund are discretionary awards, not statutory benefits, and do Dr Francis: To ask the Secretary of State for Work not take precedence over the responsibility of the local and Pensions whether he has commissioned independent authority to make an assessment of a user’s needs. assessments to assess the effect of his proposed reform of the mobility component of disability living allowance Social Security Benefits: Payments for (a) people with autism, (b) people with sight impairment, (c) people with Downs’ Syndrome and Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for Work (d) carers; and if he will make a statement. [48861] and Pensions whether his Department plans to advertise information on the routes people can take if they wish Maria Miller: Consideration was given to the equality to request not to have (a) winter fuel payment and (b) impacts of the reforms when the proposals were being other universal benefits paid to them; and what mechanisms developed, including the impacts on those with specific exists for the voluntary return of such payments already conditions. At this point the new assessment has not received. [48820] been finalised and the impact on carers and particular groups of people with disabilities will only be determined Steve Webb: We have no plans to advertise information when this is completed. on the way in which requests not to receive future benefit payments should be made. The impact assessment for disability living allowance reform was published on 16 February 2011 and can People have always been able to return their winter found at: fuel payment, or any other benefit, if they wish to. If people wish to return their payment they can do so http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/dla-reform-wr2011-ia.pdf by sending it to the address on the letter that came with The equality impact assessment for disability living their payment, or to the office that pays their benefit, allowance reform was published on 8 March 2011 and with a covering letter indicating whether or not they can found at: wish to receive the payment in the future. http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/eia-dla-reform-wr2011.pdf We ask people who want to return their payment to do so manually so that it can be dealt with securely These Documents are published by the Department under existing departmental financial processes and for Work and Pensions and not commissioned recorded against their benefit account. independently. People were also invited to put forward their views on Social Security Benefits: Strokes this proposal as part of the wider DLA reform consultation document which was published on 6 December 2010 Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and ended on 18 February 2011. The response to this and Pensions if he will commission research into the consultation will be published shortly. economic consequences for individuals of stroke and any subsequent effect on the benefits system. [48827]

Dr Francis: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Maria Miller: The Department has not previously and Pensions whether he has commissioned independent commissioned, not has any current plans for, any specific assessments to assess the effect of his proposed reforms research into the economic consequences for an individual to the independent living fund on (a) people with of stroke. While any evidence on specific conditions is autism, (b) people with sight impairment, (c) people of interest, previous and current work has focused with Downs’ syndrome and (d) carers; and if he will primarily on the overall economic costs of working age make a statement. [48970] ill-health covering all health conditions which can affect an individual’s ability to work. From a benefit perspective, for both employment Maria Miller: The Government’s position on the support allowance and disability living allowance the Independent Living Fund was set out in the written premise is that eligibility is based not on someone’s ministerial statement issued on 13 December 2010, Official condition or impairment but rather their functional Report, column 85WS. capability or the care and mobility needs associated This made clear that the Independent Living Fund with their disability. will remain closed permanently to new applications and we will safeguard the position of existing recipients by Written Questions: Government Responses carrying out a formal consultation on future support for existing ILF users while continuing to administer Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Work their awards throughout this Parliament. This consultation and Pensions when he plans to answer questions 32883, will take place following the publication of the report 32884, 32885 and 32886 tabled on 21 December 2010 by the Commission on the Funding of Care and Support. for answer on 10 January 2011. [40644] 411W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 412W

Maria Miller: I replied to the hon. Member’s questions Better Communication Action Plan on 15 February 2011; Official Report columns 679-80W. Nick Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what plans he has for implementation of the Better EDUCATION Communication Action Plan; and if he will make a statement. [49233] Academies Sarah Teather: The Government have taken forward Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for the recommendations in ‘The Better Communication Education pursuant to the answer of 10 March 2011, Action Plan’ including the appointment of a Official Report, column 1224W, on academies, what Communication Champion and the establishment of a authority will be responsible for (a) ensuring each Communications Council made up of key voluntary academy’s compliance with its funding agreement, (b) and community sector organisations, health and local providing day-to-day advice to academies on operational authority services and others; a programme of research matters and (c) management of the performance of carried out through The Centre for Educational academies after 2012. [48003] Development, Appraisal and Research (CEDAR), university of Warwick; a programme of grants to support Mr Gibb: In reply to the hon. Member’s previous the alternative and augmentative communication (AAC) question, the Government replied that these functions sector; a programme from which tools and guidance are currently the responsibility of the Young People’s have been developed to help commissioners across the Learning Agency. It is the Government’s intention that country improve the way they commission services for subject to the successful passage of the Education Bill, children with speech, language and communication needs; currently before Parliament, that a new Education Funding and support for the voluntary sector led National Year Agency, will be set up from 2012. The Education Funding of Speech, Language and Communication in 2011. Agency is intended to be an executive agency within In addition the Government have provided support the Department for Education. The Government are for the establishment of The Michael Palin Centre in considering the precise split of responsibilities between London for children who stammer and a similar centre the agency and the rest of the Department, including in the north of England and funded the development of the responsibilities which the hon. Member asked about a DVD training resource for teachers. and will make decisions in due course.

John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Children: Deviance and Behaviour Disorders what assessment he has made of the proposal for Outwood Grange academy to run Valley and Portland secondary Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Education schools. [48852] what estimate has been made of the proportion of (a) males and (b) females aged 15 to 16 in each region who Mr Gibb: The Department for Education has received have been recorded as experiencing (i) emotional and expressions of interest from Outwood Grange Academy (ii) behavioural difficulties in each of the last three years Trust to develop plans to replace both Valley and Portland for which figures are available. [48243] secondary schools with two sponsored academies. These expressions of interest have been approved by the Under- Sarah Teather: The Department collects information Secretary of State for Schools. He is writing to the hon. on the number of pupils with statements of special Member formally notifying him of this decision. educational needs (SEN), or at school action plus, by type of need. Behaviour, emotional and social difficulties Academies: Capital Investment are one type of need. Information on type of need is not collected for pupils at School Action. John Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Information on the number and percentage of males what estimate he has made of the level of capital and females aged 15 as at 31 August with behaviour, resources committed by his Department to academies. emotional and social difficulties as their primary type [40867] of need has been placed in the House Libraries. Information Mr Gibb: The capital budgets for the academies is provided for 2008 to 2010 by local authority. programme in 2010-11 consist of: The latest available information on the primary need a proportion of the budget of £2,241 million which Partnerships of pupils with special educational needs can be found in for Schools has for meeting the costs of the Building Schools the ‘Special Educational Needs in England’ Statistical for the Future programme (including academy building projects First Release—in Table 11: procured by local authorities under this programme, where the http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000939/ resources committed to academies are determined locally within index.shtml the funding envelope), academy projects procured separately and the co-location programme Children’s Centres a proportion of the budget of £232 million which the YPLA has for academies’ devolved formula capital allocations and two other programmes to facilitate the participation of 14 to Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for 19-year-olds in education Education whether his Department has withdrawn any a Department for Education budget for other academy building previously allocated Sure Start funding in (a) Brighton costs—£265 million. Pavilion constituency, (b) the Brighton and Hove area Academies programme budgets for 2011-12 and future and (c) England for (i) 2010-11 and (ii) the next four years have not yet been finalised. financial years. [49369] 413W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 414W

Sarah Teather: Up to the end of the 2010-11 financial Dance and Drama Awards Scheme year funding for Sure Start Children’s Centres has been made through the Sure Start, Early Years and Childcare Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for Grant (SSEYCG). The base allocations for Sure Start Education what plans he has for the future of the Children’s Centres for the financial year 2010-11 remain Dance and Drama Awards scheme. [48967] as announced at the start of the 2008-11 comprehensive spending review period. For Brighton and Hove city Mr Gibb: The Dance and Drama Award scheme will council and England those figures are as follows: continue in 2011/12. All young people and adults currently in receipt of the Dance and Drama Awards, who started £ on a two or three year course prior to the academic year Brighton and 2011/12, will be funded to the end of their courses. 2010-11 Hove England Students starting courses in September 2011 will also be Revenue Allocation—Children’s 5,223,876 1,135,147,893 able to apply for an award. Centres and SSLPs From September 2012 onwards, support from the Capital Allocation—Children’s 539,679 100,999,997 Department for Education to enable students to access Centres specialist dance and drama provision will be focused on young people aged 16-19. We intend to work with the The Department does not allocate funding at schools currently offering Dance and Drama Awards to constituency level. It is for local authorities to determine consider how best to make such support available. The how best to allocate available funding within their areas. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills will be The allocations for all local authorities can be found on considering plans for supporting students aged over 19. the Department’s website at: http://www.education.gov.uk/childrenandyoungpeople/ Departmental Local Government Finance earlylearningandchildcare/a0071055/sure-start-early-years- and-childcare-grant-and-aiming-high-for-disabled-children- Mr Betts: To ask the Secretary of State for Education ahdc-grant-la-funding-allocations-for-2010-11 how much each local authority received from each (a) Published allocations for Sure Start Children’s Centres revenue and (b) capital funding stream from his are not individually ring-fenced within the main revenue Department in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12; how much block of the SSEYCG and therefore are notional. Local funding his Department allocated from each such stream authorities have the freedom to spend the available in each year; and what the change was in the level of funding flexibly within that block to best meet local funding in each such stream between those years in objectives and priorities, subject to the terms and conditions (A) cash and (B) real terms. [49259] set out in the Memorandum of Grant letter. In addition to the capital base allocation the Department Mr Gibb: Details of the revenue and capital grants had been able to offer some carry-forward of unspent paid by this Department to local authorities in 2010-11 SSEYCG capital funding from prior years. Given the and 2011-12 listed as revenue and capital spreadsheets unprecedented fiscal deficit the Department restricted have been placed in the House Libraries. carry-forward of SSEYCG capital (which includes Sure From 2011-12 the Department has rationalised all Start Children’s Centres) to cases where funding was their revenue funding streams to local authorities. There required for the completion of the children’s centres will now be just three national funding streams to local programme, or where there was evidence of a contractual authorities, namely the Dedicated Schools Grant and commitment either with a building contractor or for Pupil Premium which are used to fund education services, goods. and the Early Intervention Grant. The Department’s calculations of carry-forward are The overall amount of the Dedicated Schools grant predicated on levels of expenditure from prior years. and the Pupil Premium for 2011-12 will be based on the We are awaiting audited financial returns from a number number and characteristics of pupils in schools in January of local authorities, at which point carry-forward for all 2011. That information is provided to local authorities local authorities will be finalised. by schools and will not be available to the Department until June 2011 so it is not possible to do a comparison From 1 April 2011, funding for Sure Start Children’s at this stage between the funding that authorities receive Centres will be within the Early Intervention Grant. in 2010-11 and 2011-12. However overall funding per This is a new un-ring-fenced and un-hypothecated funding pupil will be maintained in cash terms and on top of stream which will give local authorities greater flexibility this schools receive a pupil premium for the most to target resources strategically and intervene early to disadvantaged pupils. improve outcomes for children, young people and families. The Government have ensured there is enough money The Early Intervention Grant (EIG) is a new grant within the Early Intervention Grant to maintain the from 1 April 2011. The grant includes funding streams network of Sure Start Children’s Centres, accessible to previously paid by the Department of Communities all but identifying and supporting families in greatest and Local Government so is not comparable to the need. To date only the EIG funding for the financial funding streams previously paid by the Department to years 2011-12 and 2012-13 has been announced and is local authorities. only available by local authority-the figures for Brighton From 2011-12 the Department has also rationalised and Hove city council and all other local authorities in capital funding streams to local authorities. On 13 December England are available at: 2010, Official Report, columns 65-70WS, the Secretary http://media.education.gov.uk/assets/files/xls/e/ of State announced details of allocation of over £2 billion early%20intervention%20grant%20- of capital funding for 2011-12 to schools and local %20final%20allocations%20methodology.xls authorities. 415W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 416W

The announcement included details of allocation of: savings that do accrue will contribute to the overall £800 million of basic need funding to local authorities to departmental savings of up to £673 million anticipated provide school places where needed in their area, in all categories over the period of the spending review. of taxpayer-funded schools £858 million of maintenance capital to local authorities to Tessa Jowell: To ask the Secretary of State for support the needs of the schools that they maintain and for the Education what estimate his Department has made of Sure Start children’s centres in their area the level of savings which will accrue from the abolition £196 million of locally-coordinated VA programme capital to of the Qualifications and Curriculum Development support the maintenance capital needs of voluntary-aided Agency. [48631] schools £185 million of devolved formula capital for schools. Mr Gibb: The Department is committed to the The calculation of the change between years is only Government’s ambitions to reform public bodies, improve possible for the capital programmes that have been transparency and accountability, streamline services and announced for 2011-12. reduce costs. It is too soon to be specific or to provide a detailed breakdown of the savings that will be achieved For the calculation of the change in real terms we by closing the Qualifications and Curriculum Development have followed the Treasury’s established method. The Agency (QCDA). Across the spending review period, 2010-11 Devolved Schools Programmes figures have the savings from closing the QCDA will contribute to been increased by 2.5% to bring them to forecast 2011-12 the overall anticipated departmental savings of up to prices using HM Treasury’s published GDP deflators. £673 million. The 2.5% deflator is derived from HM Treasury forecasts for GDP deflator increases at the June Budget Report Tessa Jowell: To ask the Secretary of State for Education 2010. This is not a measure of the change in construction what estimate his Department has made of the level of tender prices during that period and it is not a reliable savings which will accrue from the abolition of the indicator of the change in local authorities’ ability to Independent Advisory Group on Teenage Pregnancy. procure construction works for school buildings. [48633] Departmental Press: Subscriptions Sarah Teather: The cost of supporting the Teenage Pregnancy Independent Advisory Group (TPIAG) in Mr Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Education 2010-2011 was £51,547. This included the Chair’s and how much (a) his Department and (b) the non- members’ fees and expenses in connection with attending departmental public bodies for which he is responsible TPIAG’s quarterly meetings and the cost of publications spent on press cuttings services in each of the last that they produced including their annual report. 12 months. [25492] The group was set up in 2000 to monitor and advise Tim Loughton: Figures for the Department’s spend Ministers on the previous Administration’s 10-year teenage on national and regional press cuttings services for the pregnancy strategy with a remit to end in 2010. The last 12 months are outlined in the following table. Secretary of State for Education and I agreed in June 2010 that they could continue until the end of their £ term in December 2010 but the group’s work would not Department ALBs be extended beyond that point. I am satisfied that ministerial colleagues and I can access expert advice on November 2009 11,293 16,608 teenage pregnancy through the Department of Health’s December 2009 11,069 14,912 new Sexual Health Forum. January 2010 12,355 11,327 February 2010 9,266 11,109 Education: Ofsted March 2010 11,905 13,570 April 2010 11,173 17,143 Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for May 2010 9,066 15,531 Education on how many occasions Ofsted has used June 2010 7,517 14,507 powers under Schedule 5 to the Education Act 2005 to July 2010 9,548 18,062 highlight where a school sixth form is failing or August 2010 7,260 15,252 underperforming since the entering into force of the September 2010 6,773 13,712 Act; and if he will make a statement. [44554] October 2010 6,297 12,534 Mr Gibb: Schedule 5 of the Education Act 2005 now Departmental Public Bodies only applies to maintained schools in Wales due to amendments made to it by the Apprenticeships, Skills, Tessa Jowell: To ask the Secretary of State for Children and Learning Act 2009 (Consequential Education what estimate his Department has made of Amendments) (England and Wales) Order 2010. the level of savings which will accrue from the abolition Schedule 7 of the Learning and Skills Act 2000 was of the Young People’s Learning Agency. [48626] amended by schedule 5 of the Education Act 2005. This required that where a school was removed from special Mr Gibb: The Department is committed to the measures, but the Chief Inspector was of the opinion Government’s drive to reform public bodies, improve that the sixth form provision of the school required transparency and accountability, streamline services and significant improvement, the report must state this. reduce costs. It is not yet possible to provide a specific There were two occasions between 1 September 2005 estimate of the savings that will be achieved by closing and 31 March 2010 (the period when schedule 5 applied the Young People’s Learning Agency. However, the to maintained schools in England) where a school was 417W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 418W removed from special measures and judged to be satisfactory I am pleased to inform the hon. Member that for its overall effectiveness, where this judgment did not departmental officials contacted organisations on extend to its sixth form provision. In both cases the 25 February 2011 about the outcome of their applications inspection reports stated that the sixth form provision to the first stage of the procurement process. At the was inadequate. One school has since closed; the sixth same time, officials provided full details of the tender form provision has closed in the other school. and a revised procurement timetable to those organisations Over the same period 71 schools were removed from invited to submit full bids in the second stage of the special measures and deemed to require significant process. The process for procurement remains unchanged improvement, and were issued with a notice to improve. and is fully in line with best practice set by the EU 20 of these schools had sixth form provision, five of procurement directives and Government procurement which received an inadequate grade for their sixth form rules. provision. On 25 February officials also contacted those organisations currently in receipt of telephone helpline Families service grants under the Department’s Family Information Direct programme offering extensions of their grant funding for up to three months from 1 April 2011. Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what steps he has taken to reduce the incidence I will write to the hon. Member to let him know the of family breakdown since his appointment. [48124] outcome of the procurement process when it is completed.

Sarah Teather: Our programme for government made Free Schools clear our commitment to putting funding for relationship support on a stable, long-term footing and making sure Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education couples are given greater encouragement to use existing what his policy is on the treatment of the (a) property relationship support. and (b) other assets of free schools in circumstances The Prime Minister announced in December 2010 where the body which has established the school no that the Department for Education would provide longer wishes to operate it. [21621] £30 million for relationship support over the spending review period. This is a significant increase on current Mr Gibb: Where property and other assets owned by funding levels and shows our commitment to this area a free school have been acquired from public sources or of work. using public money, or had their value enhanced by The Department invited voluntary and community capital funding from the Department, we will ensure— sector organisations to bid for a share of this resource, through the funding agreement between the Secretary successful bidders were announced on 25 February of State and the academy trust responsible for the free 2011 and will begin delivering services from April. The school—that the Secretary of State’s interests are protected, services will include: supporting the training of staff and that as many of these assets as possible are made and volunteers who work with families in relationship available for continuing use in the public education distress; making sure relationship support is easily available sector. Where this is not possible or desirable, the funding to the families who need it most, including the most agreement will also make sure that the free school disadvantaged; building the evidence base so that we secures the maximum value from any disposal of the can develop a clear view of what works in this key area; asset. In so far as this relates to school buildings and and working with employers and others to encourage land, this approach accords with the legislation governing families to take up support when they need it. the disposal of publicly funded maintained school sites. The Department is also working closely with the The current Education Bill includes additional provisions Ministry of Justice and Department for Work and to protect publicly funded land held by academy trusts Pensions with the aim of joining up support to separating so that such land remains available for public use or the and separated parents so they receive the help they need public investment can be recouped. Any solely privately to work together and make post-separation arrangements owned assets will be governed by the arrangements that are in their children’s best interests. drawn up between the owner and the academy trust. Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Family and Relationship Services what the budget is of his Department’s free schools group. [24756] Paul Maynard: To ask the Secretary of State for Education for what reasons the contracting process for Mr Gibb: £54 million has been set aside in the financial family and relationship services has been suspended; year 2010-11 to meet the capital needs and start-up what the (a) timescale and (b) process is for costs of free schools. contracting such services; and what steps he plans to take to ensure the provision of specialist parenting Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for Education helplines after 1 April 2011. [43552] how much his Department (a) has provided and (b) committed to provide to free school projects for which Sarah Teather: The procurement process for new the business case has been approved; what proportion family and relationship online and telephone support of such provision has been for (i) capital costs, (ii) services for parents and families in England was delayed project development, (iii) start-up costs and (iv) grants while we considered the full implications for the family for insurance costs; and how much his Department sector of the Department for Education’s spending spent in total on the free schools programme was in the review settlement. period between 12 May 2010 and 1 March 2011. [48932] 419W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 420W

Mr Gibb: Every free school is different and the costs “make explicit the legal right of colleges to enrol students under will vary-between projects. Many of these costs are yet 16 and ensure that funding procedures make this practically to be determined and paid, so it is not possible to possible. Colleges enrolling students in this age group should be provide detailed figures at this stage. Full details of the required to offer them a full KS4 programme, either alone or in collaboration with schools, and be subject to the same performance support costs of free school projects will be made monitoring regime (including performance indicators) as schools.” available shortly after a free school opens, when a total figure is known. We intend to publish a Government response to the review shortly. £50 million has been set aside in the financial year 2010-11 to meet the capital needs of free schools. Beyond GCSE that, provision forms part of the overall spending review settlement for schools. Mr Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Education whether he has plans to set a GCSE floor target for Free Schools: Admissions secondary schools for (a) 2012, (b) 2015 and (c) 2020; and if he will make a statement. [49438] Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what recent representations he has received Mr Gibb: The Schools White Paper; “The Importance on admissions policies for free schools. [49123] of Teaching” published in November 2010 set out floor standards against which the performance of primary Mr Gibb: Like academies, free schools will be expected and secondary schools would be judged. The White to have inclusive admission arrangements. Groups Paper also made clear that, given our expectation that proposing to set up free schools set out their proposed school performance will improve year on year, we intend admissions arrangements in their business case and in future to make the secondary standard more demanding plan. The Secretary of State considers this information by continuing to raise the level of the floor standard when taking a final decision on whether to enter into a over time. As the current floor standards have just been funding agreement with the free school academy trust. introduced, no specific plans or time scales for any Where a free school academy trust has determined changes have yet been agreed. the admission arrangements for the free school, any persons or bodies who have been consulted on the Literacy: Teaching Methods arrangements can object by making representations to the Secretary of State. No recent representations have Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for been received on admissions policies for free schools. Education what assessment his Department made of the evidence cited in footnote 32, paragraph 2.20 of the Further Education Colleges and Schools: VAT Schools White Paper, The Importance of Teaching, on the teaching of systematic synthetic phonics; and whether officials of his Department have discussed the Caroline Nokes: To ask the Secretary of State for research findings cited with the authors. [49272] Education whether he has made an assessment of the effects of changes in the rate of value added tax on (a) Mr Gibb: Officials have assessed the research findings further education colleges and (b) schools. [39519] referred to in footnote 32 to paragraph 2.20 of the White Paper ‘The Importance of Teaching’ but have not Mr Gibb: Colleges are independent providers responsible discussed these findings with the authors. for the management of their own estates and the delivery of their own programmes and services. The Department Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for for Business Innovation and Skills and the Skills Funding Education what estimate he has made of the cost to the Agency do not collect information about the value public purse of the proposed Year 1 phonics screening added tax paid by further education colleges and have test. [49305] not made any assessment of how the change of rate will affect them. Mr Gibb: We intend to pilot the Year 1 phonics Schools also have to bear their input VAT. However, screening check in approximately 300 schools this June. as maintained schools are regarded as part of local The cost of the pilot is currently estimated at £250,000 government for this purpose and local authorities are excluding the cost of print and distribution, and monitoring able to recover schools’ input VAT under section 33 of and evaluation, where procurement is not yet complete. the VAT Act 1994, schools are able to do likewise. We will publish further information on the funding of the pilot once procurement is complete and detailed Further Education: Schools costs are finalised. We will continue to gather evidence and take advice Mr Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Education from schools about the check during the pilot stage pursuant to the answer of 20 January 2011, Official before finalising the arrangements, and confirming the Report, column 951W, on further education: student costs, for the introduction of the check as a statutory numbers, whether it is his policy to increase the number assessment in 2012. of 14 and 15-year-olds spending part of their week studying in a further education college; and if he will Members: Correspondence make a statement. [49734] Mr Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gibb: The Wolf report was published on 3 March Education when his Department plans to respond to 2011 and recommended that Government should: the letters from the hon. Member for Walsall North of 421W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 422W

17 and 25 November and 12 December 2010, on the Sarah Teather: The Department does not collect data abolition of education maintenance allowance. [34842] on the number or proportion of schools in each region that are offering extended services. Tim Loughton [holding answer 20 January 2011]: A single response to the letters to the Secretary of State of Schools: Finance 17 and 25 November 2010, signed by Lord Hill, was sent to the hon. Member on 25 January 2011. The Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Department has no record of receipt of a letter from if he will align the publication of information about the the hon. Member dated 12 December 2010, but will be budgets of maintained schools and academy schools. happy to reply if he wishes to send the letter again. [37957]

Pupils: Disadvantaged Mr Gibb: Maintained schools spending data is based on consistent financial reporting (CFR) data submitted Mr Marcus Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for by schools to the Department. This information was Education how much additional funding for schools in published on 12 January 2011 on the Department’s Nuneaton constituency he expects to be provided website: through the proposed pupil premium. [31940] http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/adminandfinance/ financialmanagement/b0072409/background Mr Gibb: The pupil premium for 2011-12 will be Academies, including schools which have recently allocated to local authorities and schools with pupils converted to academy status, are not required to submit that are known to be eligible for free school meals CFR data. However, they are required to publish financial (FSM) as recorded on the January 2011 School Census, information in other formats. Pupil Referral Unit Census and Alternative Provision The Department for Education is considering whether Census. Each pupil known to be eligible for free school there should be changes to the way in which academies meals will attract £430 of funding which will go to the report financial information, taking account of the school or academy via the local authority or YPLA if current reporting requirements for maintained schools the pupil is in a mainstream setting or will be managed and the wider transparency agenda across Government, by the responsible local authority if the pupil is in a while at the same time considering the need not to non-mainstream setting. impose unnecessary burdens on academies. Local authorities will also attract the looked after child pupil premium for 2011-12 which will be allocated Schools: Sports to local authorities for pupils who at some point in the year to 31 March 2010 were looked after continuously for at least six months, and who were aged four to 15 on Dr Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Education 31 August 2009 as recorded on the April 2010 local what estimate he has made of the average amount of (a) (b) authority return. Each pupil will attract £430 of funding time spent by primary and secondary school which will go to the responsible local authority who will children on organised sport or physical activity in each pass it to maintained schools for pupils who have been year from 2005 to 2009. [26788] in care for six months or more in the year to 31 March 2011. Tim Loughton: This information is not collected in the format requested. However, the annual PE and The January 2010 school censuses allow an estimate sport survey collected data on the percentage of pupils of the number of pupils known to be eligible for FSM taking part in at least two hours of high quality PE and to be made. In the Nuneaton constituency in January sport each week, as follows: 2010 there were 2,031 pupils known to be eligible, which would give rise to a pupil premium of £873,330. In Percentage of 5 to 16-year-olds taking part in at least two hours high quality PE and sport each week addition to this there were 17 pupils known to be eligible for the service child premium, paid at a lower Percentage rate of £200 per pupil, which would give rise to a further 2004/05 69 £3,400. However, these are estimates only and are not 2005/06 80 necessarily indicative of how the pupil premium will be 2006/07 86 distributed. It is not possible to determine the number 2007/08 90 of parliamentary constituency pupils recorded on the Alternative Provision census or recorded as looked after In 2008/09 and 2009/10, the survey collected data on as they are both local authority, rather than establishment the percentage of pupils taking part in at least three level, returns. hours high quality PE and sport each week, as follows: Tables that contain these estimates, disaggregated by Percentage of 5 to 16-year-olds taking part in at least three hours high local authority, region and constituency can be found in quality PE and sport each week the House Libraries. Percentage

2008/09 51 Schools 2009/10 57

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for While this shows an increase on the amount of time Education how many and what proportion of schools pupils have spent doing PE and sport, the proportion of in each region are participating in his Department’s pupils doing competitive sport regularly has remained extended schools programme. [48255] disappointingly low. Only around two in every five 423W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 424W pupils (39%) play competitive sport regularly within Third Sector their own school, and only around one in five (21%) plays competitive sport regularly against other schools. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how much his Department and its predecessors have provided to each charity it funds in each of the last five Teachers: Qualifications years; and how much he has allocated for funding to each such charity in each of the next five years. [48290] Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what proposals he has for the (a) requirements of and Tim Loughton: The Department does not monitor (b) standards to be met by teachers in (i) free schools the amount we provide to charities, and to find this and (ii) academies. [49148] information from historical records could be achieved only at disproportionate cost. However, individual payments Mr Gibb: The Schools White Paper, ‘The Importance over £25,000 made by the Department since 1 April of Teaching’, set out our commitment to raising the 2010 are available for public scrutiny at: prestige and esteem of the teaching profession and http://www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/ driving up standards across the board. An independent departmentalinformation/transparency/b0065427/ review of teaching standards is currently under way to departmental-and-alb-spend-over-25000/ establish clear and unequivocal standards which all The Department does not budget at a level of detail schools can use to promote the highest quality of teaching that enables us to forecast the amount to be paid to in all classrooms charities. Academies are required, through their funding agreement, to employ teachers who hold Qualified Teacher Status Written Questions: Government Responses or are otherwise eligible to do specified work under the Education Regulations 2003 and will therefore be subject Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for to the outcomes of the review. Education when he plans to answer question 35419, Innovation and diversity are at the heart of free on public appointments, tabled on 18 January 2011. school policy and in this spirit we will not be setting [47133] overly prescriptive requirements in relation to qualifications of staff. But proposers will have to make clear how Tim Loughton: A response to the hon. Member’s teaching standards will be maintained in their applications. question was issued on 29 March 2011, Official Report, We expect, however, that free schools will find the column 288W. revised standards a helpful tool for performance Young People: Local Government Finance management and staff development and will be free to adopt them if they wish. Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what assessment he has made of the likely effects of the outcome of the spending review on local Teachers: Training authority funding for children and young people’s services. [19268] Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what recent representations he has received on the provision Tim Loughton [holding answer 25 October 2010]: of financial incentives for teacher training in shortage Details of the funding made available to local authorities subjects. [49127] for children and young people’s services were announced on 13 December 2010 as part of the local government Mr Gibb: As announced in the Schools White Paper finance settlement; and were laid before Parliament by 2010—The Importance of Teaching, the Department the Secretary of State for Communities and Local will shortly publish a discussion document on the funding Government as a statutory report relating to Local of initial teacher training, including financial incentives Government Finance in England 2011-12 on 31 January for trainees in priority subjects, from academic year 2011. The settlement confirmed the protection for schools 2012/13. The document will provide the opportunity for and services for vulnerable children as announced in the those who have an interest in, or are directly involved comprehensive spending review. with, the training of teachers to provide comments on our proposals. Youth Services: Finance In the meantime, we hold regular discussions with key representatives of the science, technology, engineering Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and mathematics (STEM) community and other subject what Sefton Council’s Early Intervention Grant Allocation associations which help inform policy development. was in (a) 2008-09, (b) 2009-10 and (c) 2010-11; and The Secretary of State for Education wrote to the what provision for early intervention has been made in Training and Development Agency for Schools on 31 the local government settlement for Sefton Council for January 2011 with details of the training bursary 2011-12. [38885] arrangements for graduates who will undertake initial teacher training in academic year 2011/12. Raising the Sarah Teather [holding answer 7 February 2011]: The number of specialist science, mathematics and modern new Early Intervention Grant (EIG) brings together language teachers in schools is a high priority for the funding for universal as well as specialist services in Government and we have confirmed that trainees in all recognition that both have an important role to play in of these subjects will be offered bursaries at the same identifying and supporting families who need extra help levels as 2010/11. before problems escalate, and helping them get more 425W Written Answers30 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 426W intensive support if needed. It-will be introduced from However, according to administrative data held by the 2011-12 and will be un-ring-fenced. The EIG rationalises Crown Prosecution Service (CPS), the number of a range of centrally directed programmes to ensure prosecutions finalised between 1 April 2010 and 28 February local authorities have greater flexibility and freedom. 2011, and the proportion resulting in convictions are as Although there were centrally directed predecessor follows: grants to the Early Intervention Grant, there was no CPS—domestic violence prosecutions direct equivalent of the Early Intervention Grant in Convictions 2008-09, 2009-10 and 2010-11. Total Sefton’s indicative allocation under the Early Intervention Number Percentage prosecutions Grant in 2011-12 is £11.3 million. 1 April 2010 to 53,738 72.0 74,679 28 February 2011

Crown Prosecution Service—rape prosecutions ATTORNEY-GENERAL Convictions Crown Prosecution Service Total Number Percentage prosecutions Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Attorney-General 1 April 2010 to 2,212 58.3 3,794 how many pre-charge decisions the Crown Prosecution 28 February 2011 Service has made in 2010-11 to date. [49800] Crown Prosecution Service—sexual offences excluding rape prosecutions The Attorney-General: Between the period of 1 April Convictions 2010 and 28 February 2011, the Crown Prosecution Total Service has made 430,172 pre-charge decisions. Number Percentage prosecutions 1 April 2010 to 6,000 74.4 8,069 Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Attorney-General 28 February 2011 how many cases in (a) magistrates courts and (b) Crown Courts the Crown Prosecution Service has While every effort is made to ensure that recorded presented in 2010-11 to date; and what proportion did data are complete and reliable, figures are subject to not result in a conviction. [49801] possible errors in data entry and processing, as with every large scale recording system. The Attorney-General: Between the period 1 April Where a defendant charged with rape is recorded as 2010 and 28 February 2011, the Crown Prosecution having been convicted, this may include a conviction for Service (CPS) prosecuted 767,018 cases in magistrates a charge other than rape, including a lesser charge. courts, of which 103,748 (13.5%) did not result in a conviction. In the Crown Court, the CPS prosecuted 106,777 defendant cases, of which 21,740 (20.4%) did Magistrates’ Courts: Convictions not result in a conviction. Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Attorney-General Domestic Violence: Prosecutions what proportion of cases presented in magistrates courts by the Crown Prosecution Service (a) resulted in a Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Attorney-General conviction and (b) have been discontinued in 2010-11 how many prosecutions there have been for cases involving to date. [49799] allegations of (a) domestic violence, (b) rape and (c) other sexual offences in 2010-11 to date; and what The Attorney-General: Between the period 1 April proportion of such cases have resulted in a conviction. 2010 and 28 February 2011, the Crown Prosecution [49854] Service (CPS) prosecuted 767,018 cases in magistrates courts, of which 663,270 (86.5%) resulted in a conviction. The Attorney-General: The Ministry of Justice is Of the 103,748 unsuccessful outcomes, 29,707 cases responsible for compiling the official crime statistics. were discontinued equating to 3.9% of total prosecutions Data for the period 2010-11 to date are not yet available. in the magistrates court. ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 30 March 2011

Col. No. Col. No. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 323 INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT—continued Corruption...... 327 UK Anti-corruption Champion...... 326 Global Action Poverty Fund...... 329 UN Women (Funding) ...... 323 Humanitarian Assistance (Libyan Borders) ...... 331 World Bank Spring Meetings ...... 328 India ...... 329 Yemen ...... 331 Lesotho...... 325 Libya (Humanitarian Aid) ...... 330 South Sudan ...... 324 PRIME MINISTER ...... 332 Tax Avoidance (UK Companies) ...... 332 Engagements...... 332 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 30 March 2011

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 11WS JUSTICE...... 20WS Companies House...... 11WS Bribery Act 2010...... 21WS National Measurement Office...... 11WS Legal Services Board Chairman...... 20WS Office of the Public Guardian...... 21WS CABINET OFFICE...... 14WS Educational Bodies (Oversight as Charities) ...... 14WS LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 22WS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 15WS Oral Answers to Questions (Order) ...... 22WS Future of Local Public Audit...... 15WS TRANSPORT ...... 22WS ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 16WS Agency Business Plans ...... 23WS Smart Metering...... 16WS Departmental Expenditure Limit (2010-11) ...... 22WS EU Transport Council ...... 25WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Merchant Shipping (Ship-to-Ship Transfers) AFFAIRS...... 17WS Regulations 2010...... 26WS New Waterways Charity...... 17WS Semi-trailers...... 23WS UK Aviation: Sustainable Framework ...... 24WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 18WS Japan Earthquake (Government’s Response)...... 18WS TREASURY ...... 12WS HEALTH...... 19WS Carbon Price Floor (Government Response) ...... 12WS Right to Provide Initiative...... 19WS ECOFIN...... 13WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 30 March 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 425W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 394W Crown Prosecution Service...... 425W Homelessness: Finance ...... 394W Domestic Violence: Prosecutions ...... 425W Solar Power: Planning Permission...... 395W Magistrates’ Courts: Convictions...... 426W DEFENCE...... 384W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 344W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 384W Beer: Competition...... 344W Armed Forces ...... 384W Business: Regulation ...... 345W Armed Forces: Bahrain...... 385W Departmental Plants ...... 345W Armed Forces: Colchester...... 386W Departmental Public Bodies ...... 346W Armed Forces: Conditions of Employment ...... 386W Departmental Theft ...... 348W Armed Forces: Meat ...... 386W Diamond Resorts International ...... 348W C-704 Missiles...... 387W Employment Rights ...... 348W Cougar...... 387W Training: English Language ...... 349W Defence: Procurement...... 387W Departmental Early Retirement ...... 387W CABINET OFFICE...... 395W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 388W Big Society Initiative ...... 395W Departmental Redundancy ...... 389W Departmental Meetings ...... 396W European Fighter Aircraft ...... 389W Departmental Public Appointments...... 396W HMS Ark Royal...... 389W National Security Council...... 395W HMS Cumberland ...... 390W Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE—continued FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— HMS Tireless: HMS Turbulent ...... 390W continued Major Projects Review Board ...... 390W British Nationals Abroad...... 375W Merville Barracks...... 391W Chen Guangcheng ...... 375W Military Tattoos...... 391W Departmental Cycling...... 376W Nimrod Aircraft...... 392W Departmental Redundancy ...... 376W Peacekeeping Operations ...... 392W Egypt: Aviation...... 376W Radioactive Waste...... 393W Egypt: Politics and Government ...... 377W Saudi Arabia: Military Aid ...... 393W Japan: Aviation ...... 377W Tornado Aircraft...... 393W Japan: Tsunami ...... 377W Trident ...... 393W Libya: Aviation ...... 378W Libya: Politics and Government...... 378W EDUCATION...... 411W Middle East: Armed Conflict...... 379W Academies...... 411W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 379W Academies: Capital Investment...... 411W Tunisia: Aviation...... 380W Better Communication Action Plan ...... 412W Western Sahara: Morrocco ...... 380W Children: Deviance and Behaviour Disorders ...... 412W Yemen ...... 380W Children’s Centres...... 412W Dance and Drama Awards Scheme ...... 414W HEALTH...... 399W Departmental Local Government Finance...... 414W Blood: Contamination ...... 399W Departmental Press: Subscriptions ...... 415W Food Standards Agency: Pensions ...... 400W Departmental Public Bodies ...... 415W Hospitals: Admissions ...... 400W Education: Ofsted ...... 416W NHS: Surveys ...... 401W Families ...... 417W NHS Trusts...... 400W Family and Relationship Services...... 417W Pressure Sores ...... 401W Free Schools...... 418W Processed Food: Labelling...... 401W Free Schools: Admissions ...... 419W Surgery...... 402W Further Education Colleges and Schools: VAT ...... 419W Venous Thromboembolism ...... 402W Further Education: Schools ...... 419W Wheelchairs...... 402W GCSE ...... 420W Literacy: Teaching Methods...... 420W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 367W Members: Correspondence ...... 420W British Nationality ...... 367W Pupils: Disadvantaged...... 421W Children: Protection...... 367W Schools ...... 421W Departmental Public Bodies ...... 368W Schools: Finance...... 422W DNA: Databases...... 368W Schools: Sports ...... 422W Domestic Violence: Immigrants ...... 370W Teachers: Qualifications...... 423W Domestic Violence: Suicide ...... 371W Teachers: Training...... 423W European Gendarmerie Force...... 371W Third Sector...... 424W Metals: Sales ...... 371W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 424W Young People: Local Government Finance...... 424W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 372W Youth Services: Finance...... 424W Art Works ...... 372W

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 381W INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY Carbon Emissions: Housing...... 381W STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE ...... 397W Carbon Reduction Commitment Energy Childcare Salary Supplement Scheme ...... 397W Efficiency Scheme ...... 381W Consultants: Recruitment ...... 398W Feed-in Tariffs...... 381W Personnel: Pay...... 398W Public Bodies: Feed-in Tariffs ...... 382W Stress...... 399W Renewable Energy: Feed-in Tariffs...... 382W Solar Power: Feed-in Tariffs...... 383W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 372W Water Power...... 384W Darfur...... 372W Developing Countries: Tuberculosis...... 373W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Development Aid...... 374W AFFAIRS...... 339W Swaziland: Overseas Aid...... 374W Animals: Clones...... 339W Automatic Urban and Rural Network ...... 339W JUSTICE...... 356W Biofuels...... 340W Discrimination ...... 356W Bovine Tuberculosis: Cattle...... 340W Fraud: Jobseeker’s Allowance ...... 356W Carbon Emissions...... 341W Legal Aid: West Midlands...... 357W Farmers: Local Enterprise Partnerships...... 341W Food: Waste...... 342W PRIME MINISTER ...... 394W Horses: Passports...... 342W Yemen ...... 394W London Air Quality Network ...... 342W Modulation Payments...... 343W SCOTLAND...... 371W Recycling: Plastics...... 343W Oil and Gas...... 371W Waste Management...... 344W Public Expenditure...... 372W

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 374W TRANSPORT ...... 351W Alcoholic Drinks...... 374W Coastguards: Scotland ...... 351W Arms Trade...... 375W Commission for Integrated Transport...... 351W Col. No. Col. No. TRANSPORT—continued TREASURY—continued Departmental Public Bodies ...... 351W Members: Correspondence ...... 364W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 351W Monetary Policy ...... 364W Great Western Railway: Electrification ...... 352W National Asset Management Agency...... 364W Heathrow Airport: Railways ...... 352W National Insurance: Databases ...... 365W High Speed Two...... 352W Oil: Excise Duties...... 365W High Speed Two: Costs ...... 353W Personal Taxation ...... 366W High Speed Two: Manpower...... 353W Tax Yields ...... 366W Members: Correspondence ...... 354W Taxation: Self-assessment...... 367W Network Rail: Contracts...... 354W Working Tax Credit: Lone Parents...... 367W Railways...... 355W Railways: Fees and Charges ...... 355W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 358W Railways: Rolling Stock ...... 355W Convention on Elimination of All Forms of Thameslink Railway Line: Finance ...... 356W Discrimination Against Women...... 358W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 402W TREASURY ...... 359W Access to Work Programme ...... 402W Banks: Crown Dependencies...... 359W Children: Maintenance ...... 403W Child Benefit...... 359W Departmental Public Bodies ...... 404W Child Benefit and Child Tax Credit...... 360W Departmental Regulation...... 404W Child Benefit: Lone Parents ...... 360W Disability Living Allowance: Scotland ...... 404W Child Care tax Credit...... 360W Disability Living Allowance: Wales...... 405W Child Tax Credit ...... 360W Employment and Support Allowance: Disability ... 405W Conditions of Employment...... 361W Employment and Support Allowance: Kirkcaldy... 406W Corporate Bond Market ...... 361W Funeral Payments ...... 406W Defence: Finance ...... 361W Housing Benefit: Jobseeker’s Allowance ...... 407W Departmental Cycling...... 362W Poverty: Children ...... 407W Departmental Plants ...... 362W Social Fund...... 407W Departmental Senior Civil Servants...... 362W Social Fund: Airdrie ...... 408W Excise Duties: Alcoholic Drinks...... 363W Social Security Benefits: Disability...... 408W Excise Duties: Beer ...... 363W Social Security Benefits: Payments...... 410W Income Tax ...... 363W Social Security Benefits: Strokes ...... 410W Insolvency...... 364W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 410W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 30 March 2011

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 323] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for International Development Prime Minister

Libya (London Conference) [Col. 345] Statement—(Mr Hague)

Alcohol Marketing [Col. 368] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Dr Wollaston)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill (Programme) (No. 2) [Col. 373] Programme motion (No. 2)—(Nick Herbert)—agreed to As amended, considered

Private Members’ Bills [Col. 474] Motion—(Mr Heath)—agreed to

Petition [Col. 486]

Community Facilities (Flitch Green) [Col. 488] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Local Government [Col. 493] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Westminster Hall Children with Special Educational Needs [Col. 73WH] Squatting [Col. 97WH] NHS (Public Satisfaction) [Col. 105WH] Foreign Fishermen (Visas) [Col. 130WH] Motor Sport (Public Highways) [Col. 139WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 11WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 339W] [see index inside back page]