Oral History Interview - In Memory of Talaat Harb Pacha Interviewer: Farida Ahmed El Deeb Interviewee: Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab, Professor at The American University in

Farida Ahmed El Deeb 0:00 In memory of Talaat Harb Pacha, The founder of , air and many more Egyptian companies, Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab, Professor at The American University in Cairo talks to us about myths, achievements, and struggles of Talaat Harb's on Thursday, April 16 2020. Good evening. How are you?

Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab 0:18 I think I'm fine.

Farida Ahmed Eldeeb0:23 Okay. I want to ask you, how has your education reveal what makes life worth living for you?

Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab 0:30 I never thought of this question. If you ask me. What makes what makes me feel life is worth living. It might not be education. No, I can't I can't I can't find the answer.

Farida Ahmed Eldeeb 0:50 Okay, I can change that question into like, how did your own education help you discover like your own talents to bring them to life, either your education …

Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab 1:03 Again I don't think that my education helped me to discover what I liked in life, not my education. Let me, let me, let me just take; the point is that if by education, you mean becoming literate, this started before my education. I started learning how to read and write before I even entered school. Okay, and reading and writing became a habit for me, and a hobby and a relief as well, before I went to school, in other words, it was aligned. Aligned running parallel to whatever form of education I was getting. And I think I will add to this more of my formulation, then formal education. I think for me Education alone doesn't make anything doesn't help anyone, I think, to find out anything about his inner self. So, if the question is how did I, what helped me to identify a role in life or what makes life worth living for me?

Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab 2:24 It was a process of reflection, engaging observations, reflections, and basically a lover, a lover of literature. Basically, It's the love of literature that makes decisions or thinking systems and so on. And I did not study literature. My education didn't have...

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Farida Ahmed Eldeeb 2:52 Okay, you mentioned that reading is a hobby. If you would tell us what's your favorite book or literature piece, just briefly and why. Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab 3:02 The one that I lived with several times in my life and I had and I lectured in it as well; when I was tutoring in the core curriculum for several years was Mawsim al-hijrah ila al-shamal. This is definitely if I have to choose a book but recently there is another book as well: Hekayat Youssef Tadros (The Tales of Youssef Tadros) of Adel Esmat. And there are others [but] these are the two most important.

Farida Ahmed Eldeeb 3:40 Okay, moving on to Talaat Harb Pacha.

Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab 3:43 Yes!

Farida Ahmed Eldeeb 3:43 Talaat Harb Pacha, mentioning the word Pacha as a start...

Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab 3:48 I thought that you were emphasizing Pacha, go ahead.

Farida Ahmed Eldeeb 3:53 Yeah, the surname Pacha, how can someone achieve that name or where did the name come from?

Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab 3:59 It's a title, it is a decoration rather than the name. Why did he become a pacha? I'm not sure. Actually, What I remember vaguely is that it was, oh, you're not asking the occasion. You're asking why in the sense of

Farida Ahmed Eldeeb 4:23 Yeah, the name itself

Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab 4:24 Specific occasion but what made him entitled. It's brought in establishing Banque Misr. And this is [it]. [But] the occasion when he learn of it was during a visit as far as I remember.By Farouk, King Farouk former king perhaps Al Mahalla Al Kobras site, one of his projects. And the story as far as I remember it is that as he was leaving he [King Farouk] greeted him saying Talaat

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Pacha. And this was taken to be the decree, there must be a formal decree as well. This was the moment when he knew he was giving, as far as I know.

Farida Ahmed El Deeb 5:18 Okay. And what are Talaat Harb Pacha's achievements? Or what do you think has impacted the Egyptian economy the most?

Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab 5:27 Nothing. This is the immediate response has to be I can't say nothing. What I'm trying to say actually is the following. There is a legacy about Talaat Harb more than a record. Okay, there is there is a myth about Talaat Harb more than a record. First of all, wasn't was most famous for promoting Banque Misr. But Talaat Harb's promotion of Banque Misr is part of life path which included activity in the public space as an economic writer, and thinker, economic and general. First of all, before the bank was established, the bank was established in 1920. Before the bank was established Talaat Harb wrote a treatise calling for the establishment of the bank. It's the seminal work. One of the most important works in Egyptian economic foot titled Elag Misr Al Ektisadi, [or] Mashroa Bank El Oma [or] Bank Al Masriyeen, perhaps.

Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab 6:48 And this was published there are two dates people report each of them [because] there's something with the edition itself, which either 1911 or 1930. Now, there he expressed the vision for the bank. But even before this book, 10 years or so before this book Talaat Harb had published works corresponding. First of all, work responding to Qasim Amin's women's liberation call against it. He published a book on Qabael Al Arab Wal Islam. He published a book. These were not economics. He published a work proposing the existing at that time proposal for extending the Suez Canal concession, and then he published the work I mentioned about the bank. He, before stablishing the banking before becoming the major figure associated with the bank in 1920, he already had a record as a writer, that's number one. Number two, the bank was not the initiative of Harb alone.

Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab 8:05 Actually, even the treaties he wrote was the product of a trip he was sent to take together with two other people, one of them is Youssef Kasar Katawy Pacha, a trip to Germany and Italy.Germany and Italy, particularly because they had tradition of banks closely associated with a Al Motamar Al Watany Al Mesry [or] the first Egyptian national conference, which convened in 1911. During the conference, someone by the name Youssef Nahas a Lebanese, someone of lebanese background, voiced a call for a national bank during the conference. As the result of Youssef Nahas's call partially atleast the conference decided to send a mission admission that included Harb, Youssef Kasar katawy and a third person. I can't recall who is the third person to Italy and Germany as I said.

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Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab 9:07 So, the person who sounded the call in the conference was Youssef Nahas and not Talaat. Now, there is something which we have to understand about that period of time. About 19, the first two decades of the 20th century, this was a time when an embryonic Egyptian entrepreneurial community or let me reword this embryonic entrepreneurial community was born in Egypt. I'm reowrding it by changing Egyptian into in Egypt ]because] this community included a lot of local foreign minorities who co lisk with those of indigenous roots, whether distant indigenous roots or recent indigenous roots. And together they were forming a cohort, which aimed at claiming a share in the Egyptian market for capital that resides in Egypt, even if it's owned by local foreigners, and for them the share had come from Elites. So, Talaat Harb was part of a general movement at that time in the early 1920s. Immediately after 1919, you'll find two important institutions Banque Misr in 1920 and Egyptian federation of industries in 1922, both adopting the cause of industry.

Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab 10:51 You also find before the formation of these two bodies, like Target or sulla the Kerner commission for commerce and in Formed in 1916 by the government to look into ways to promote industry so our heart belongs in this context when Miss started did not start as an industrial bank. The charter of banknotes is a charter for a bank, practicing general banking services general banking activities, which were mostly commercial activities. In the first 10 years or so, of bank misses, record, the past they establish established during those between 19 2017 2008 To be more precise, they established nine companies nine joint stock companies, of which only one could be described as really industry moloko authenticity hidden the others We're in fields of transportation. We're in cinema and other such fields. And we're not capitalized heavily enough to make them industry.

Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab 12:15 This is why 1929 Bank must issue a report appealing to the state to found an industrial bank had it had the bank itself been on this wireless call for another, it perceived of an industrial bank owned by a state to provide banks like bank must with the funds in order to advance them to investment fair. This is why actually between 1970 and 1939, which is this loss is about having the bank you'll find more industrial projects but at that time, not founded solely by judgment. He had to go into partnership with foreign fat there is there is what I'm practicing is that there is a myth that Banque Misr was an industrial bank.

Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab 13:09 It wasn't an industrial bank it was a genuine bank, which promoted some industrial projects, but it couldn't, on its own carry an industrial renaissance in Egypt. So number one, it was not ... . But

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number two, It couldn't on its own, by Egyptian capital alone develop industries, it had to either rely on the state, which wasn't forthcoming at that time or on foreign capital. So this is another part of the myth Banque Misr in order to becoming in order to promote industry had to change the motto of For ,By Egyptians, and From Egyptians. It had to adjust to this. There are several aspects of Harb that that earns him a lot of admiration. But we should not create around the reality a myth. Okay, okay. So I said nothing. It was just meant to be a shocking answer. And what follows is really elaborative.

Farida Ahmed El Deeb 14:36 Okay, well, in your opinion, what do you think of all what you said impacted the well being of Egyptians at that time, the most? Like do you think culturally wise would it be the establishment of Misr Studio the studios, like the films that were produced? Is it Banque Misr? As it was maybe a symbolism of the nationalism of Egyptians.

Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab 15:06 I'll tell you something, as a person who believes strongly that you do not have change coming in one big shot, the extent of changing to the extent of of having a radical impact at a given point of time, from one moment to the other immediately. And as a person who believes the changes always is always incremental and has to be if it is, if it is to be real, substantive change, it has to be happening on several fronts at the same time. I can't specify one aspect that had more effect it's important again, to realize that the context altogether was formulating There were two things happening. There was a drive in Egypt, a dream for transformation beyond the status of Egypt as a cotton plantation. This dream was expressed since the first decade of the 20th century.

Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab 16:20 Banque Misr became a symbol for the period of time when this is a symbol, okay, it's not the only institution it's a symbol for realizing this beam or realizing steps within in the period of the free enterprise system. And it's because of Banque Misr that joint stock companies industrial companies developed. But then there is a continuum between what started under Banque Misr and the way it continued in the 50s and 60s, then actually from a political economy perspective, as far as the industrialization dream is concerned, the continuation of the bank this experiment was during the phase of their arsenite experiment in the 60s in the early to late 60s. The state capitalist as far as there is continuum as far as the industrial experience is concerned. Of course, there isn't a continuum with respect to ownership, then where you moved from private enterprise to state ownership, in the 60s.

Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab 17:57 But there is this aspect of break. [Howeever,] this had its contribution and this had its contribution. One of the longest serving ministers of industry in Egypt, Mohammed Abdelwahab, who served as Minister of industry from 1984 to 1993, always commented on the...

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made a comparison on the size of Misr spinning and weaving in Mahala Al Kobra as established by Banque Misr and what became of it later on in the 50s and 60s, okay. The nucleus was there, but it was it was expanded to the size of afterwards, so you can't, you can't actually can't pick the point or institution and identify as more as having more impact. Both periods of time had the relevance and had the road to play.

Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab 19:41 And what people usually either forget or not aware of, is that even though Harb as a founder of Banque Misr, a very important institution during the three enterprise era and himself, a thinker, for Egyptian entrepreneurial sphere, even though he is a person of that status, he was not celebrated until the 50s, when the new regime took over. Talaat Harb the place which we announced As Midan Talaat Harb was until 1957, Maidan Suleiman Pacha. [The street] of Talaat Harb was [Suleiman Pacha Street], it was the new regime, the 1952 regime that converted this that created a square in the name of Talaat Harb and the street in the name of Talaat Harb.

Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab 20:24 Now, would it have been the case if Harb had not been, ah, I assume you know that Harb's career in Banque Misr in 1939 due to a crisis, he was forced to resign. He was forced to resign at that time. One could speculate that if he wasn't forced to resign, and had he continued his banking and had he become acquire the status in the 50s or By the fifties is similar to the one that was acquired by Ahmad Pacha Aboud at the time perhaps he wouldn't have celebrated. Okay. Perhaps it is because of the failure of harb and the fact that he did not continue throughout the pre-enterprise period Perhaps it's because of this it was possible to portray Harb as the victim of a conspiracy by large capital against national capital. This itself is something which needs to be re-examined and revisited.

Farida Ahmed El Deeb 21:40 Okay, to conclude this interview, you might have mentioned it and it might be the biggest challenge or problem, but in your own opinion, what challenges or problems that Talaat Harb Pach face? Like what what might have been the biggest problem, is if the part or the time when he was forced to resign in order to save the bank?

Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab 22:02 No, it's the fact that he is a person who had the ambitions and the vision, but not the context that would make him able to, to to, to realize that. There is a small anecdote I heard from his grandson, who himself was the chairman of the financial company EIFC Egypt investment Finance Corporation and whom I met in the 1990s while working on my own dissertation on that. The anecdote goes like this. When the young son Samir Sami, when the when the grandson was a young boy, he he wanted to take he wanted extra pocket money from his mother. Talaat Harb didn't have any sons he had daughters only.And the boy he wanted an extra pocket money

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and his mother wouldn't give him so I started crying. He said: "Talaat Harb called me, [come my boy, why are ypu crying]?"

Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab 23:21 He said I want more Pocket money, what are you gonna do with the pocket money. So the boy immediately answered him saying, I'll start a project. Okay. I start an enterprise and Harb asked him in what? So, he answered he said, I'll get some sheep and I will raise sheep. He said, Okay, what's the first thing you need to do in order to start an enterprise and the boy didn't know. So he told him, bring me a paper, piece of paper. The boy gets a piece of paper. Tallat Harb the first thing he does is to hold the piece of paper and to draw a line in the middle, which is the trial balance. And he started teaching when he was nine or 10 years old. The first thing he needs to do in order to start a business is to know how to keep books. Okay? accounting book.

Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab 24:20 He is a man who had in him the skills and the vision and the ability to express them publicly, which is not something everyone has, through his books, through his speeches, through his articles, and he had a very clear message that finds refuge in the idea of nationalism in order to promote Egyptian capital. Now, had Talaat Harb continued the idea of starting an industrial bank, which was proposed by Banque Misr in 1929 was not did not materialize until the late 40s I think 46 or 47, I can't tell the exact date. During these 17 years of time, he had to rely on other sources and foreign capitals portal. Now had the context make it possible to have a different tool for the state Harb would have been able to survive and Banque Misr could have developed more indices. These are all suggestions that need to be more critically tested. So we can consider them hypotheses right now, rather than finding.

Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab 25:58 But Harb is a person who because of the myth that surrounds him is not well studied. And his real worth is suppressed because of this. He's seen as an exception. But he's not exception. He is a person who had a lot of work in himself out of training, studying, studying the field, and being able to persist in making a call, but he was not exceptional as far as the message is concerned at all.

Farida Ahmed El Deeb 26:48 Thank you so much Professor Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab have a great night! Abdelaziz Ezz El Arab 26:51 Thank you.

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