Page 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON
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SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM,
MOHAMED AHMED BEN SOUD, OBAID
ULLAH (as Personal
Representative of GUL RAHMAN),
Plaintiffs, Civil Action No.
vs. 2:15-CV-286-JLQ
JAMES ELMER MITCHELL and
JOHN "BRUCE" JESSEN,
Defendants.
------x
VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM
VOLUME I
March 14, 2017
Reported by: Jane M. Borrowman, RPR, CSR Job no: 18303
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 2 1
2 DEPOSITION OF: SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM
3 LOCATION: Hogan Lovells 22 Fredman Drive 4 Sandton, Johananesburg, South Africa
5 DATE: March 14, 2017
6 TIME: 10:08 a.m.
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TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 3 1 APPEARANCES:
2 ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFFS:
3 Paul L. Hoffman, Esq.
4 SCHONBRUN SEPLOW HARRIS & HOFFMAN, LLP
5 200 Pier Avenue
6 Hermosa Beach, California 90254
7 310-396-0731
9 - and -
10 Steven M. Watt, Esq.
11 AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION FOUNDATION
12 125 Broad Street - 18th Floor
13 New York, New York 10004
14 212-284-7321
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17 ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANTS:
18 James T. Smith, Esq.
19 Charrise L. Alexander, Esq.
20 BLANK ROME, LLP
21 1825 Eye Street NW
22 Washington, DC 20006-5403
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 4 1 ALSO PRESENT:
2 Ms. Margaret Odanga, Swahili Interpreter
3 Mr. Samuel Kendagor, Swahili Interpreter
4 Mr. Bill Slater, Videographer
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TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 5 1 I N D E X
2 WITNESS: SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM - VOLUME 1
3 Examination by Mr. Smith ...... 8
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6 E X H I B I T S
7 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
8 1 Document produced by the United States 9 government, bearing Bates Nos. 001530 through 1538 84 10 8 Complaint and Demand for Jury Trial 84 11
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TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 6 1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 VIDEOGRAPHER: This is media No. 1
3 in the video deposition of Suleiman Abdullah
4 Salim in the matter of Suleiman Abdullah
5 Salim, et al. versus James Mitchell, et al.,
6 United States District Court for the Eastern
7 District of Washington, Civil Action No.
8 2:15-CV-286-JLQ.
9 This deposition is being held at the
10 offices of Hogan Lovells, 22 Fredman Drive, in
11 Johannesburg, South Africa, on March 14th,
12 2017. The time is approximately 10:08 a.m.
13 My name is Bill Slater from the firm
14 of TransPerfect. I am the legal video
15 specialist. The court reporter is Jane
16 Borrowman in association with TransPerfect
17 Legal Solutions.
18 Will counsel please voice identify
19 themselves for the record.
20 MR. SMITH: Jim Smith for the
21 defendants, here with Charrise Alexander.
22 MR. HOFFMAN: Paul Hoffman for the
23 plaintiff.
24 MR. WATT: Steven Watt for the
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 7 1 plaintiff.
2 VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court
3 reporter please swear in the witness and the
4 interpreter.
5 (Whereupon, MARGARET ODANGA was duly
6 sworn to interpret the questions from English
7 into Swahili, and the answers of the witness
8 from Swahili into English.)
9 (Witness sworn.)
10 MR. SMITH: Okay. So, Margaret,
11 your last name?
12 INTERPRETER ODANGA: O-D-A-N-G-A.
13 MR. SMITH: For the record, I'm just
14 going to refer to you as "Margaret." Is that
15 acceptable to you?
16 INTERPRETER ODANGA: That's fine.
17 MR. SMITH: Okay. So, Margaret, as
18 you know, you are the official interpreter for
19 this proceeding, but prior to going on the
20 record, I just want to put it on the record
21 the ACLU has also brought an interpreter,
22 Samuel.
23 Samuel, what is your last name?
24 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: Kendagor.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 8 1 K-E-N-D-A-G-O-R.
2 MR. SMITH: And may I call you
3 "Samuel" on the record?
4 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: Yes.
5 MR. SMITH: Thank you.
6 We have an understanding, Margaret,
7 that if there is some dispute about the
8 interpretation that you're giving to the
9 witness, either of my questions or the
10 witness's answers, Samuel will just simply
11 raise his hand, which means everybody pauses
12 until we determine if we have an issue and how
13 we're going to work it out.
14 Fair enough?
15 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Sure.
16 MR. SMITH: Okay.
17 SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM,
18 a witness called for examination by counsel
19 for the Defendants, being first duly sworn,
20 was examined and testified as follows:
21 EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. SMITH:
23 Q. Could you state your name for the record,
24 please, sir.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 9 1 A. Suleiman Abdullah Salim.
2 Q. Mr. Salim, good morning. My name is Jim Smith
3 and I represent the defendants who have been
4 named in a lawsuit pending in the United
5 States District Court for the Eastern District
6 of Washington in which you are a plaintiff.
7 INTERPRETER ODANGA: This is the
8 interpreter. I would like to request that you
9 talk in short segments.
10 MR. SMITH: Yes. Absolutely. Shall
11 we start all over again?
12 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Please.
13 BY MR. SMITH:
14 Q. Mr. Salim, good morning. My name is Mr. Jim
15 Smith and I represent defendants Mitchell and
16 Jessen in a lawsuit pending in the United
17 States District Court for the Eastern District
18 of Washington in which you are a plaintiff.
19 A. Fine.
20 Q. You're aware of that, is that correct, sir?
21 A. You know my lawyer.
22 Q. Okay. But is he aware that he is a plaintiff
23 in a lawsuit pending in the United States of
24 America?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 10 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. Have you ever given a deposition
3 before?
4 A. How?
5 Q. Has he ever given sworn testimony under oath
6 before?
7 A. Like now?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. In what proceedings?
11 A. Now.
12 Q. Okay. Prior to today, has he ever done it
13 before?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Has anyone explained to you the significance
16 of testifying under oath?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. And you understand that you have an
19 absolute obligation to tell the whole truth
20 and nothing but the truth?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you understand that you could be subjected
23 to penalties if you don't tell the truth?
24 A. Yes.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 11 1 Q. And do you intend to tell the truth today,
2 sir?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Have you ever been known by any other names
5 other than Suleiman Abdullah Salim?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you tell me what other names you've been
8 known by?
9 A. Maurice Ngaka.
10 Q. Could you spell that for the record, please.
11 A. N for Nancy, G for Greg, A for apple, K for
12 kilo, A for apple.
13 Q. Any other names?
14 A. Issa Tanzania.
15 Q. Will you spell that for the record, please.
16 A. I-S-S-A, then Tanzania.
17 Q. Any other names?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. Do you presently go by the name
20 Suleiman Abdullah Salim?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And do you presently use any of those other
23 names?
24 A. No.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 12 1 Q. Now, Mr. Salim, I want to just talk about
2 procedure during this deposition. I'm going
3 to be asking you a series of questions.
4 From time to time, your lawyers may
5 be placing objections on the record, and then
6 you will be answering the questions, unless
7 instructed not to.
8 Everything that everyone says while
9 we're on the record is taken down by the
10 official court reporter, which is the person
11 two people to your left.
12 You understand that the videographer
13 is not the official court reporter?
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. It's important that only one of us speak at a
16 time. It's also important that you give
17 verbal responses to my questions.
18 A. Fine.
19 Q. The court reporter cannot transcribe nonverbal
20 forms of communication. Do you understand
21 that?
22 A. Fine.
23 Q. If I ask you a question today that you don't
24 hear, just tell me and I'll have the court
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 13 1 reporter read it back.
2 A. Fine.
3 Q. And if I ask you a question that you don't
4 understand, just tell me and I'll rephrase the
5 question to make sure that the answer you give
6 is to a question you fully understand.
7 A. Fine.
8 Q. Okay. And if at any time during the
9 proceeding you need to take a break, just tell
10 me and I will do everything I can to
11 accommodate that request.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. Mr. Salim, are you taking any
14 medication that would affect your ability to
15 recall events?
16 A. I don't.
17 Q. Okay. Did you do anything to prepare for your
18 deposition today?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you meet with your lawyers prior to your
21 deposition? Just answer the question yes or
22 no.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When did you meet with your lawyers?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 14 1 A. Are you asking for today or?
2 Q. Prior to this deposition, how many times did
3 you meet with your lawyers?
4 A. We were together.
5 Q. Were you together yesterday?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. For how many hours?
8 A. I can't know how many hours.
9 Q. Why can't you tell me how many hours?
10 A. Because I don't know.
11 Q. Was it more than three hours?
12 A. We were together, we ate together. I can't
13 know how many hours.
14 Q. Okay. Was the purpose of being together with
15 your lawyers to prepare for your deposition?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And I don't want to know what you said, but
18 did you discuss your anticipated testimony?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And how many days before that did you meet
21 with your lawyers to get ready for your
22 deposition?
23 A. Like four days.
24 Q. Four days in a row?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 15 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And how many hours did you spend with your
3 lawyers on each of those days getting ready
4 for your deposition?
5 A. I can't really remember, either it was two or
6 three hours. Not really sure.
7 Q. And did you -- did you review any documents
8 during the course of the preparation?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Who was present when you were getting
11 prepared?
12 A. Paul.
13 Q. Paul. Was Samuel present?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Anyone else?
16 A. Steven.
17 Q. Anyone else?
18 A. Just those.
19 MR. SMITH: The videographer is
20 having a technical issue and he's asking to go
21 off the record.
22 INTERPRETER: The time is 10:23.
23 We're off the record.
24 (Brief pause.)
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 16 1 INTERPRETER: We're back on the
2 record. The time is 10:24.
3 BY MR. SMITH:
4 Q. Mr. Salim, when is the first time that you met
5 Mr. Paul Hoffman?
6 A. I can't remember the day.
7 Q. Can you approximate?
8 A. Maybe on the 3rd or the 2nd. I'm not really
9 sure.
10 Q. I'm sorry. What was the answer?
11 A. Maybe on the 3rd or on the 2nd, but I'm not
12 really sure of the date.
13 Q. The 3rd or the 2nd of what?
14 A. This month.
15 Q. Okay. Had you ever met Mr. Hoffman before
16 then?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Had you ever talked to him?
19 A. No.
20 Q. When did you meet Mr. Watt, Steven Watt, for
21 the first time?
22 A. I can't remember the day.
23 Q. Can you approximate?
24 A. Are you talking of the day or where we met?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 17 1 Q. Either one, or both.
2 A. I can't remember the date, but the place was
3 in Dubai.
4 Q. And how long ago was it?
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. Was it this year?
7 A. Not this year.
8 Q. When did you stop using the name Maurice?
9 A. That has been my name since I was young.
10 Q. When did you stop using it?
11 A. I've not stopped using it. Some people still
12 calls me that name.
13 Q. I thought you testified earlier today that you
14 stopped using that name.
15 A. Maybe I did not understand the question.
16 Q. Okay. But you presently still go by the name
17 Maurice?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When did you stop using the name Ngaka?
20 A. I can't say that I stopped using it because
21 there are some people that still calls me that
22 name.
23 Q. When did you start using the name Ngaka?
24 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Did you say
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 18 1 start?
2 MR. SMITH: Start, yeah.
3 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
4 answer.
5 (Discussion held off the record.)
6 MR. SMITH: Let's ask. Do you want
7 the objection translated, Mr. Hoffman?
8 MR. HOFFMAN: I don't think we need
9 to, just to move through.
10 MR. SMITH: You don't need to
11 translate the objection.
12 Did you translate the question, when
13 did he start using the name Ngaka?
14 (Translating.)
15 THE WITNESS: People used to call me
16 with that name. I was not using that name.
17 BY MR. SMITH:
18 Q. When did people start calling you that name?
19 A. I can't remember very well, but it is around
20 1986.
21 Q. And who gave you that name?
22 A. '86, '87.
23 Q. Okay. Who gave you that name?
24 A. Just the young men, the men.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 19 1 Q. Where were these young men from?
2 A. Dar es Salaam.
3 MR. SMITH: Could you spell that,
4 please.
5 INTERPRETER ODANGA: I'm not very
6 sure of the spelling, but it's a city in
7 Tanzania. I'll just try my best.
8 MR. SMITH: Sure.
9 INTERPRETER ODANGA: It's D for
10 David, A for apple, R for Robert, E for
11 Edward, S for Sam, A for apple, L for Laurie,
12 A for apple, M for Mary.
13 BY MR. SMITH:
14 Q. Okay. And do you recall the circumstances
15 under which these young men from Dar es Salaam
16 gave you this name?
17 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. Go ahead.
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 BY MR. SMITH:
20 Q. Can you explain?
21 INTERPRETER ODANGA: He's asking me
22 if I know something.
23 A. So there is a game and the way it's described
24 is like a box and it has holes and you try to
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 20 1 -- it's like a table. There's a hole here
2 (gesturing), at the corners, and then you --
3 you play. There's some sticks that you play
4 with. So that thing is called "carom," the
5 game. So we would play this game.
6 One person would be at the other end
7 and another person at this end, the other
8 person on the other end and another person at
9 this end. So I would tell the person facing
10 me that "I will close on you."
11 So there is an insect that is called
12 "Ngaka," and this insect, when it goes to
13 water, it sinks. So they use the term, like
14 if I "close on you," like I'm sinking on you.
15 (Witness speaking to interpreter.)
16 INTERPRETER ODANGA: I think I
17 misunderstood that a little bit.
18 (Witness speaking to interpreter.)
19 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Okay. I think
20 I got it.
21 A. So this insect that is called "Ngaka," it's --
22 like it comes with good luck. So like let's
23 say we have rice, we have water, we have
24 different types of food, so if it choose -- if
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 21 1 it choose to go to water, then we'll have a
2 lot of rain.
3 So if we are playing the game and I
4 close on somebody, then it's like everybody is
5 going to be closed on, and then they call me
6 "Ngaka."
7 Q. Okay. Thank you.
8 And when were you known by the name
9 Issa Tanzania?
10 A. Around '94, '95.
11 Q. And who gave you that name?
12 A. In my identification card --
13 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Okay. Can I
14 just ask for a clarification?
15 MR. SMITH: As an interpreter, you
16 need a clarification from me?
17 INTERPRETER ODANGA: From
18 Mr. Suleiman.
19 MR. SMITH: You want something that
20 he said clarified just so --
21 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Yeah.
22 MR. SMITH: -- the record's clear,
23 so you want to talk to Samuel?
24 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Did you get
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 22 1 what he said?
2 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: Yeah.
3 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Okay.
4 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: And he picked
5 an identity card for Kenya.
6 COURT REPORTER: I'm having trouble
7 hearing you.
8 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: Okay. He
9 picked up an identification card in Kenya. In
10 that identification card, it asked what the
11 name. Issa. But no picture, no photo. So he
12 used that identity card with the name Issa.
13 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Okay. Yeah.
14 So he picked up an ID card that had the name
15 Issa. The ID card had no picture, but he was
16 a Tanzanian.
17 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
18 (Witness speaking to interpreter.)
19 INTERPRETER ODANGA: If somebody
20 asked me "where you from," I tell them "I am
21 from Tanzania."
22 MR. HOFFMAN: Can I just suggest
23 that we're going to go a lot faster if you
24 focus on answering the specific question
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 23 1 that's asked you, rather than give a long
2 explanation.
3 (Translating.)
4 MR. HOFFMAN: You don't need to
5 answer anything. Just wait for a question.
6 BY MR. SMITH:
7 Q. Mr. Salim, do you speak English?
8 A. A little.
9 Q. Well, did he say "a little" or did he say
10 "yes"?
11 MR. HOFFMAN: He just said "yes, a
12 little."
13 INTERPRETER ODANGA: He said
14 "yesse," (phonetic) it means more.
15 MR. SMITH: Oh, okay. I heard
16 "yes," so that's why you're here. Okay.
17 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Yesse.
18 (Phonetic.)
19 MR. SMITH: Okay.
20 BY MR. SMITH:
21 Q. When did you start speaking English?
22 A. When I was in jail, at the jail.
23 Q. Okay. Now, let's go back to this
24 identification from Kenya. Who issued the
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 24 1 identification in Kenya?
2 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
3 answer.
4 BY MR. SMITH:
5 Q. Mr. Salim.
6 A. Huh?
7 Q. Do you understand the question?
8 A. I understand.
9 Q. Okay. Who issued the identification?
10 A. Fahid.
11 Q. Who is Fahid?
12 A. My friend.
13 Q. And how is it that you got to know this man,
14 Fahid?
15 A. I knew him because he had a store.
16 Q. What kind of store?
17 A. Clothing store.
18 Q. And why is it that he issued this
19 identification to you?
20 A. So while I was in Kenya, the police were
21 searching. If you didn't have identification,
22 then you'd be in trouble. So I would show
23 that identification, that I have ID card.
24 Q. Was it a false identification?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 25 1 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
2 answer.
3 THE WITNESS: It was a valid one.
4 It was not false.
5 BY MR. SMITH:
6 Q. Tell me why it wasn't false.
7 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
8 answer.
9 INTERPRETER ODANGA: He's asking,
10 can he -- can I clarify? He's trying to
11 understand, when you say "objection," does
12 that mean that he's not supposed to talk or...
13 MR. HOFFMAN: You translate. If I
14 say "objection," he can still answer the
15 question.
16 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Okay.
17 MR. HOFFMAN: Unless I instruct him
18 not to answer.
19 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Okay.
20 (Translating.)
21 THE WITNESS: Can you ask your
22 question again?
23 BY MR. SMITH:
24 Q. Let me ask a different question. Did you
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 26 1 understand what Mr. Hoffman said just now,
2 before the interpreter translated it,
3 Mr. Salim?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. SMITH: Okay. So let me just
6 ask if, maybe, we could go off the record for
7 a second.
8 VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 10:40.
9 We're off the record.
10 (Brief pause.)
11 VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record.
12 The time is 10:41.
13 MR. SMITH: Just for the record, I
14 took a quick break and asked Mr. Hoffman if he
15 would consider just using an interpreter when
16 the witness asks for an interpretation, but he
17 said that he didn't believe Mr. Salim's
18 English was good enough. So I'll accept that
19 and we'll just keep marching on.
20 BY MR. SMITH:
21 Q. Mr. Salim, did you ever present this
22 identification to Kenyan police or other
23 officials using the name Issa Tanzania?
24 A. No.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 27 1 Q. That wasn't your real name, is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Yes, that's correct, it was not his real name?
4 A. It wasn't a real name.
5 Q. And why were you in Kenya?
6 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection as to -- as
7 to time, actually.
8 When are you asking him?
9 MR. SMITH: That doesn't work,
10 Mr. Hoffman. You say "objection" and, then, I
11 can --
12 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, but it's going
13 to be a --
14 MR. SMITH: Speaking objections
15 don't work, Mr. Hoffman. Okay? If you want
16 to go off the record and ask the witness to
17 leave the room to put a speaking objection on
18 the record, you can. So please don't do it.
19 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, then, maybe
20 we'll just -- we'll just make objections that
21 -- with -- with real objections rather than
22 just put it on the record.
23 MR. SMITH: If you want to use time
24 to put an explanation for your objection. All
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 28 1 of your arguments are preserved if you say
2 "objection." So there's no reason to do it.
3 BY MR. SMITH:
4 Q. Do you understand my question, sir?
5 A. Repeat the question.
6 MR. SMITH: Sure. Could I ask the
7 court reporter to read it back.
8 (Whereupon, the question was read
9 back by the court reporter as
10 follows: "And why were you in
11 Kenya?")
12 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection.
13 THE WITNESS: I was working.
14 BY MR. SMITH:
15 Q. He was walking?
16 A. Working. Working. (Phonetic: Walking.)
17 MR. HOFFMAN: Working.
18 MR. SMITH: Working. Oh, working.
19 BY MR. SMITH:
20 Q. When did you start working in Kenya?
21 A. I can't really recall, but it was in the '90s,
22 maybe '91.
23 Q. Okay. Now, I think you said you started using
24 the name Issa Tanzania in 1994, 1995, is that
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 29 1 right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. But, yet, you started working in Kenya in, you
4 think, 1991?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So why did you wait three years or so to get
7 this identification?
8 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
9 answer.
10 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Did you say he
11 can answer?
12 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes. Yes.
13 THE WITNESS: In '94, that's when I
14 was now living in Kenya and working in Kenya.
15 '91, I was operating from Dar es Salaam to
16 Kenya, Kenya to Dar es Salaam.
17 MR. SMITH: Okay. Got it. Thank
18 you.
19 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Thank you.
20 MR. SMITH: And just so we're clear
21 while there's no question pending, would you
22 tell the witness that unless his lawyer
23 instructs him not to answer the question, that
24 even though there's an objection, he should
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 30 1 answer the question.
2 (Translating.)
3 THE WITNESS: Fine.
4 BY MR. SMITH:
5 Q. Okay. Mr. Salim, presently, where do you
6 live?
7 A. In Zanzibar.
8 Q. What is your address?
9 A. I don't use any address, it's just Zanzibar.
10 Q. Does he have a home address?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you live in a home in Zanzibar?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Who owns the home?
15 A. My mom.
16 Q. Okay. And how long have you lived there?
17 A. I'm with my mom.
18 MR. SMITH: Could I ask the question
19 be read back to the witness.
20 (Whereupon, the last question was
21 read back by the court reporter as
22 follows: "And how long have you
23 lived there?")
24 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 31 1 answer.
2 BY MR. SMITH:
3 Q. Do you understand that question, Mr. Salim?
4 A. Yes, I understand it.
5 Q. How long have you lived at this home in
6 Zanzibar?
7 A. I can't remember. Since I came from jail.
8 Q. Okay. And do you know the address but you
9 don't want to tell me?
10 A. In Zanzibar, we don't have addresses at homes
11 like you do in America.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. Or in Europe.
14 Q. Okay. All right. And what is your date of
15 birth, sir?
16 A. September 25th, 1971.
17 Q. And where were you born, in what country?
18 A. The country is Tanzania, in Zanzibar, in
19 Zanzibar.
20 Q. And what is your present country of
21 citizenship?
22 A. Tanzania.
23 Q. And has that always been the case?
24 A. Yes.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 32 1 Q. Are you married?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And what is your wife's name?
4 A. Sharifa.
5 Q. Can you spell that for me, please.
6 A. It's S-H-A, R for Robert, I for India, F for
7 Frank, A for apple.
8 Q. And how long have you been married?
9 A. Around six years. I'm not very sure.
10 Q. Approximately, six years?
11 A. Something like that.
12 Q. Okay. Do you have any children?
13 A. One.
14 Q. And what is your child's name?
15 A. Mariam.
16 Q. And do you live with your wife and your child?
17 A. I don't live with my child, but my wife, yes.
18 Q. And where is your child, presently?
19 A. At the grandparents.
20 Q. Okay. Have you ever been married before?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. And when were you married previously?
23 A. 2003.
24 Q. And for how long were you married?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 33 1 A. Like two weeks.
2 Q. And what was your previous wife's name?
3 A. Magida. M for Mary, A for apple, G for Greg,
4 I for India, D for David, A for apple.
5 Q. Do you have any children with Magida?
6 A. No.
7 Q. And how long had you been with Magida, dating,
8 before you were married?
9 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but you can
10 answer.
11 THE WITNESS: I can't remember.
12 BY MR. SMITH:
13 Q. Was it more than a year?
14 A. I can't remember.
15 Q. When is the last time he spoke with Magida?
16 A. The day I was arrested.
17 Q. And do you know where Magida is now?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. Have you attempted to find her since you were
20 released from prison?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I want to ask you about your educational
23 background.
24 A. Fine.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 34 1 Q. So let's just go through your schooling first.
2 Did you graduate from high school or an
3 equivalent?
4 A. I don't know how to differentiate schooling.
5 I just know school.
6 Q. Okay. So let's just start with when did you
7 start going to school?
8 A. I don't remember the year.
9 Q. Well, you were born in 1971.
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. So, obviously, sometime thereafter, you
12 started going to school, correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. For how many years did you go to school?
15 A. I can't remember, but I can say maybe eighth
16 grade.
17 Q. Eighth grade. Okay.
18 And did you have any formal
19 education beyond the eighth grade?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Now, I want to ask you about your employment
22 background and I want to try to do it
23 chronologically.
24 Are you with me?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 35 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When is the first job that you remember you
3 had?
4 INTERPRETER: When?
5 MR. SMITH: Yes.
6 (Translating.)
7 THE WITNESS: When, I can't tell.
8 BY MR. SMITH:
9 Q. Okay. Can you approximate?
10 A. If you say "when," it's a little confusing.
11 Q. Sure.
12 A. If you ask which year, then I can tell you the
13 year.
14 Q. Well, when I -- could you explain when I say
15 "when," he can tell me which year.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. So let's go to your first employment. Do you
18 remember your job?
19 A. I remember.
20 Q. Okay. Can you tell me what the job was?
21 A. I was working in a store.
22 Q. How old were you?
23 A. I'm not sure, but around 16 or 17.
24 Q. Okay. And what kind of store was it?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 36 1 A. Clothing store.
2 Q. Okay. And how long did you work there?
3 A. I can't remember.
4 Q. Can you approximate?
5 A. I think up to around the ninety -- around '90.
6 Q. Around 1990?
7 A. Yeah, 1990. I'm just estimating, but I'm not
8 sure.
9 Q. Okay. Estimates are fine.
10 And what did you do for the clothing
11 store?
12 A. I was selling.
13 Q. Okay. And where was this store located?
14 A. In Dar es Salaam.
15 Q. And why did you leave?
16 A. The owner of the store got rid of the store,
17 he sold the store.
18 Q. Okay. So what was your next job after --
19 strike that.
20 What was the name of the store?
21 A. It did not have any name.
22 Q. Okay. What was your next job after that?
23 A. Business.
24 Q. What do you mean by that?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 37 1 A. I was doing transportation, picking up like
2 luggages and taking it to other places.
3 Q. And so you were transporting luggage from one
4 place to another?
5 A. Like from Dubai to Zanzibar.
6 Q. Was there a company that you worked for?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Who owned the business?
9 A. Me.
10 Q. Okay. What was the name of the business?
11 A. I did not give it a name.
12 Q. And can you tell me who your customers were?
13 A. I didn't have any specified customers. I
14 would just go to the stores and showed them
15 what I have to see if they like.
16 Q. Mr. Salim, I thought you said that you were
17 transporting luggage from Dubai to Zanzibar.
18 Did I hear you correctly?
19 A. I did not transport. I would go to Dubai to
20 buy like pants, shirts, and then I bring back
21 to Zanzibar.
22 Q. And how would you travel to Dubai to get these
23 pants and shirts?
24 A. By plane.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 38 1 Q. Okay. And then you would bring back this
2 merchandise and sell it in Zanzibar?
3 A. Some in Zanzibar, some in Dar es Salaam.
4 Q. Okay. And for how long, what period of time
5 did you engage in this activity?
6 A. It was a very short time.
7 Q. More than a year?
8 A. Something like that.
9 Q. Okay. And what was your next job after that?
10 A. After that, I would go to Mombasa and come
11 back to Dar es Salaam. I would get bed covers
12 from Mombasa and bring to Dar es Salaam.
13 Q. And during what period of time did you do
14 that?
15 A. I'm not really sure, but around 1991.
16 Q. Okay. And what did you do after that?
17 A. So after that is when I lived in Mombasa,
18 working in a boat from Malindi to Lamu and
19 sometimes Somalia.
20 Q. So that started in 1992, approximately?
21 A. 1994, 1995.
22 Q. Okay. 1994, '95. Okay.
23 And you say you lived on a boat or
24 you worked on a boat?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 39 1 A. Worked.
2 Q. Worked on a boat?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. And you were living where?
5 A. When I'm transporting, I will just sleep in
6 the boat.
7 Q. Okay. And when he wasn't transporting, where
8 were you living?
9 A. I would operate between Malindi and Lamu.
10 Did you ask, also, when I started
11 working?
12 INTERPRETER ODANGA: He wants to go
13 back a little bit.
14 MR. SMITH: The witness wants to go
15 back?
16 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Yes.
17 BY MR. SMITH:
18 Q. Okay. Mr. Salim, is there something you want
19 to say for the record?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. Go ahead.
22 A. When you asked me when I started working, it's
23 a little confusing because, as a young person,
24 as a young man, I was fishing. I started
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 40 1 fishing.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. So that's what I wanted to clarify.
4 Q. Okay. So I asked you do you recall about your
5 work experience, and you started, I think,
6 when you were 16 or 17 years old and you
7 described it.
8 Do you remember that?
9 A. Yeah, around 16 or 17.
10 Q. And do you recall the various jobs that you
11 told me about from 16 or 17 up through the
12 years 1994 and '95?
13 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
14 answer.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 BY MR. SMITH:
17 Q. Okay. And is there anything that you told me
18 that's incorrect?
19 MR. HOFFMAN: Object.
20 THE WITNESS: I say it's correct.
21 BY MR. SMITH:
22 Q. It is correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. So I want to go, now, to 1994, 1995.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 41 1 A. Fine.
2 Q. That was the year you took a job on a boat?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Who owned the boat?
5 A. Fahid.
6 Q. Was that the same Fahid that gave you the
7 identification from Kenya?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you know if Fahid was affiliated with any
10 Al-Qaeda activities?
11 A. No.
12 Q. So let's go back, then. You were working on
13 Fahid's boat. How long did you work on the
14 boat?
15 A. Until 1998.
16 Q. Okay. How many other people worked on the
17 boat?
18 A. Just me, we were two, but we were coming and
19 going, so on and off.
20 Q. Was there one boat or more than one boat?
21 A. One.
22 Q. Okay. How big was the boat?
23 A. I don't recall very -- I don't remember very
24 well, but it was about 8 to 9 meters.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 42 1 Q. So approximately 27, 28 feet?
2 A. I don't understand these numbers with the
3 feet.
4 Q. Okay. What kind of merchandise were you
5 transporting on this boat?
6 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
7 answer.
8 THE WITNESS: I would carry things
9 like soap, rice, sugar, and sometimes
10 transport people.
11 BY MR. SMITH:
12 Q. And where would you pick up this -- this soap
13 and rice and sugar?
14 A. I would pick them from Malindi and take them
15 to Lamu.
16 Q. Where is Malindi?
17 A. Malindi's in Kenya.
18 Q. And where is La-mee (phonetic)?
19 INTERPRETER ODANGA: La-moo.
20 (Phonetic.)
21 MR. SMITH: Or Lamu.
22 INTERPRETER: L-A-M-U.
23 THE WITNESS: In Kenya.
24 BY MR. SMITH:
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 43 1 Q. And did you also say that you transported to
2 Somalia?
3 A. Sometimes I would go to Somali to get dry fish
4 and, then, I bring it to Malindi.
5 Q. What is Fahid's full name?
6 A. I can't remember.
7 Q. Does the -- do you know if his -- Fahid's full
8 name is Fahid Mohamed Ally Msalam?
9 A. I can remember Fahid Mohamed, but not the
10 other one.
11 Q. Okay. And you stopped transporting this fish
12 and other materials in 1998, is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Why?
15 A. The boat was taken away from me.
16 Q. Who took the boat away from you?
17 A. The Somali people.
18 Q. Can you describe the circumstances under which
19 the boat was taken away?
20 A. I was just on my daily business and the people
21 came, the Somali came, they had guns and they
22 said they were taking my boat away.
23 Q. Okay. Do you know who these Somali people
24 were?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 44 1 A. I didn't know them.
2 Q. Did they shoot at you?
3 A. No, they did not shoot.
4 Q. Okay. And after that, what was your next job?
5 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Can I ask him
6 to repeat?
7 MR. SMITH: Sure.
8 (Translating.)
9 A. So, up till that, I was doing fishing and,
10 also, I was working at the port. So like when
11 the ship came, we would help to pack them.
12 Q. How long did you do that?
13 A. It was just a few months.
14 Q. Okay. Who issued a paycheck to you for doing
15 the work at the port?
16 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
17 answer.
18 THE WITNESS: The Somali.
19 BY MR. SMITH:
20 Q. Okay. And where were you living at the time
21 when you were doing this employment?
22 A. Kismayu.
23 Q. I'm sorry?
24 A. Kismayu.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 45 1 Q. Can you spell it, please.
2 A. K-I-S-M-A-Y-U.
3 Q. And where is that located?
4 A. Somalia.
5 Q. Okay. And you said you did that job for a few
6 months?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And why did you stop that job?
9 A. Because I was not getting -- I was not being
10 paid well.
11 INTERPRETER ODANGA: And he said
12 something about the guns, so.
13 (Translating.)
14 THE WITNESS: All the time, they
15 would put the gun on me to go get the ship and
16 come and pack.
17 MR. SMITH: I'm sorry. Go get the
18 sheep?
19 MR. HOFFMAN: Ship.
20 MR. SMITH: Ship.
21 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Ship, yeah.
22 BY MR. SMITH:
23 Q. Okay. Okay. All right. So that's why you
24 left that job?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 46 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So what was your next job after that?
3 A. Driver.
4 Q. A driver. Where?
5 A. In Mogadishu.
6 Q. What did you drive?
7 A. A car.
8 Q. Okay. For what purpose?
9 A. Someone would employ me to be a driver, like I
10 take the kids to school and pick them up from
11 school and go buy them stuff.
12 Q. And during what period of time did you engage
13 in this employment?
14 A. It was around '98.
15 Q. '98. And how long did you do this job as a
16 driver?
17 A. Until I was arrested in 2003.
18 Q. So your testimony is that from 1998,
19 approximately, until you were arrested in
20 2003, you were employed as a driver?
21 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection and you can
22 answer.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes. It was driver,
24 but still I would do some other side jobs,
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 47 1 like work for somebody in the store.
2 BY MR. SMITH:
3 Q. Any other side jobs?
4 A. I was working with polio people.
5 Q. Polio?
6 A. Polio.
7 (Translating.)
8 A. Yes, polio.
9 Q. Okay. Any others?
10 A. No.
11 Q. What was the name of the company that employed
12 you as a driver?
13 A. It wasn't a company.
14 Q. Who owned the automobile that you drove?
15 A. Abdul Salam.
16 Q. Who was Abdul Salam?
17 A. He's a Somali.
18 Q. And how did you meet him?
19 A. So in Mogadishu, I was just asking for help.
20 And then he asked me "are you asking for help,
21 you don't have a job?" So that's how he gave
22 me the job.
23 Q. Okay. So you were living in Somalia?
24 A. Yes.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 48 1 Q. Was your first wife from Somalia?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Were you employed as a fisherman at any time
4 between 1998 and 2003?
5 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
6 answer.
7 THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
8 BY MR. SMITH:
9 Q. Mr. Salim, do you have any difficulties
10 recalling events from the late '90s or early
11 2000s?
12 A. I am very forgetful. Even things that
13 happened yesterday, I can forget.
14 Q. Okay. Mr. Salim, are you permitted to enter
15 the United States of America?
16 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
17 answer.
18 THE WITNESS: I don't understand.
19 How?
20 BY MR. SMITH:
21 Q. Are you permitted to go to the United States
22 of America?
23 MR. HOFFMAN: Same objection. You
24 can answer.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 49 1 THE WITNESS: Like asking for a
2 visa?
3 BY MR. SMITH:
4 Q. Well, however you would get there, do you know
5 if you are permitted to enter the United
6 States of America?
7 MR. HOFFMAN: Same objection.
8 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
9 BY MR. SMITH:
10 Q. Have you tried to enter the United States of
11 America in the last two years?
12 A. I was trying -- I tried to look for a visa.
13 Q. Okay. And tell me what you did to try to
14 enter the United States of America through
15 acquiring a visa.
16 MR. HOFFMAN: I'm going to object
17 and ask him only to answer if he can do so
18 without disclosing attorney/client
19 communications.
20 (Translating.)
21 THE WITNESS: Say it again.
22 MR. HOFFMAN: I said -- I'm sorry
23 it's confusing, but I don't want you to give
24 any information that was given to you by your
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 50 1 lawyers, only if you personally know what was
2 done to get a visa.
3 (Translating.)
4 THE WITNESS: Fine.
5 BY MR. SMITH:
6 Q. Mr. Salim, let me ask you again, are you
7 permitted to enter the United States of
8 America?
9 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
10 answer.
11 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
12 BY MR. SMITH:
13 Q. Isn't it true that you tried to enter the
14 United States of America and you were denied
15 acceptance -- or entry, rather, denied entry?
16 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
17 answer.
18 THE WITNESS: I tried to look for a
19 visa, to ask for a visa.
20 BY MR. SMITH:
21 Q. Do you have any understanding why you are not
22 permitted to enter the United States of
23 America?
24 MR. HOFFMAN: I'll object and
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 51 1 instruct him not to answer on that if he was
2 -- got that information from his lawyers.
3 MR. SMITH: Well, that's not legal
4 advice, Mr. Hoffman.
5 MR. HOFFMAN: Sure, it is.
6 MR. SMITH: No, it's not. If you're
7 repeating what you were told by --
8 MR. HOFFMAN: It's a confidential
9 communication between his lawyer and -- a
10 lawyer and client.
11 MR. SMITH: All right. I can't
12 change your mind on that, so.
13 BY MR. SMITH:
14 Q. Is it your testimony, sir, that you have no
15 understanding, other than through your
16 lawyers, why you're not permitted to enter the
17 United States of America?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you personally attempt to acquire a visa
20 to come to the United States of America?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did someone on your behalf attempt to acquire
23 a visa?
24 A. No.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 52 1 Q. Well, let me make sure I got this right. Do
2 you know if you or anyone on your behalf ever
3 attempted to acquire a visa to come into the
4 United States in connection with this case?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Who?
7 A. My lawyer.
8 Q. Okay. All right. Were you ever personally
9 interviewed by anyone in connection with
10 attempting to get a visa to the United States
11 for this case?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you ever attempt to travel to the nation
14 of Dominica?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And why is it that you were attempting to
17 travel to Dominica?
18 A. This case.
19 Q. And were you able to get to Dominica?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Can you tell me why?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Please tell me.
24 A. I tried twice. The first time, I went to
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 53 1 Dar es Salaam. They told me that I can't go
2 because, first of all, I will pass through
3 many countries that doesn't give Tanzania --
4 any Tanzanian any visa.
5 I tried the second time. I got up
6 to Abu Dhabi. The people in Abu Dhabi told me
7 that I cannot proceed to Dominica because I'll
8 pass through so many countries in transit.
9 Q. And did they tell you why you couldn't get
10 through those countries?
11 A. They told me that I can't go in transit
12 through -- from Dar es Salaam to 0man to
13 Abu Dhabi to France, there is another country
14 I can't remember, to Dominica. I can't go.
15 Q. Did they tell you why you couldn't go?
16 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
17 answer.
18 THE WITNESS: They told me I can't
19 go through transit in these countries.
20 BY MR. SMITH:
21 Q. Did they tell you why you couldn't go through
22 transit in these countries?
23 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. He can
24 answer.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 54 1 THE WITNESS: I have -- I have
2 answered your question. They told me I cannot
3 go to -- through this because I'm passing
4 through these countries.
5 BY MR. SMITH:
6 Q. Did they tell you why you couldn't pass
7 through those countries?
8 MR. HOFFMAN: I'll -- I'll object to
9 that on the grounds this, now, has been asked
10 four times and I'll instruct you not to answer
11 it. Move on. He's just given you the answer.
12 You may not like it, but that's the answer.
13 MR. SMITH: Okay, Mr. Hoffman, you
14 know what, those kind of comments don't help
15 at all. Tell me why the witness -- what his
16 answer was when he explained why he --
17 MR. HOFFMAN: His answer is he
18 was --
19 MR. SMITH: -- couldn't go through
20 those countries.
21 MR. HOFFMAN: His answer was that he
22 was told that he couldn't go because of the
23 number of countries he had to go through, as
24 in Tanzania.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 55 1 MR. SMITH: And my question was "did
2 they tell you why you couldn't pass through
3 those countries."
4 And if the answer is, "no, they
5 didn't," I'll accept that answer.
6 And you and I both know that he
7 hasn't answered that question. So why you
8 would instruct the witness not to answer after
9 I've flown all these miles to take this
10 witness's deposition really annoys me. Okay.
11 And I'll -- look, let me ask the question one
12 more time.
13 BY MR. SMITH:
14 Q. Did those officials tell you why you couldn't
15 pass through those countries? Yes or no.
16 MR. HOFFMAN: Same objection. He
17 can answer, if he can.
18 MR. SMITH: Maybe you should tell
19 the witness to answer the question.
20 MR. HOFFMAN: Why don't you just
21 stop it. Don't badger the witness.
22 MR. SMITH: I'm not badgering --
23 MR. HOFFMAN: He's trying to do it.
24 MR. SMITH: -- the witness.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 56 1 MR. HOFFMAN: Yeah, you are.
2 MR. SMITH: The answer is just yes
3 or no, they either told me or they didn't tell
4 me.
5 (Translating.)
6 THE WITNESS: I want to ask you one
7 question.
8 BY MR. SMITH:
9 Q. You want to ask me a question?
10 INTERPRETER ODANGA: He want to give
11 you -- say something.
12 A. I want to give you my view.
13 Q. Well, the witness can certainly say whatever
14 he wants to say. I'll strike it if it's not
15 responsive to the question, but if the witness
16 would just answer my question, we could move
17 this along more quickly.
18 MR. HOFFMAN: Same objection. You
19 can answer, if you can.
20 THE WITNESS: Don't be so harsh on
21 me, like the other people that asked me
22 question. Just be -- go slow and I'll answer
23 the questions.
24 BY MR. SMITH:
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 57 1 Q. Fair enough. So, Mr. Salim, let me -- let me
2 just ask you, you were told, I guess at
3 Abu Dhabi, that you couldn't pass through
4 other countries by officials at Abu Dhabi.
5 Do you remember you said that to me?
6 A. I don't know how to answer this. I got to
7 Abu Dhabi, they asked me where I was going. I
8 told them I was going to Dominica.
9 They asked me where is the visa for
10 France -- Dominica. I said there's no --
11 there's no visa. I showed them the paper
12 showing that, as a Tanzanian, I don't need a
13 visa to go to Dominica.
14 They refused. You can't go -- they
15 said you can't go to -- you can't go to
16 Dominica because you pass through many
17 transits.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. That was the answer.
20 Q. And did they explain to you, in words or
21 substance, why you wouldn't be permitted to
22 pass through those transits?
23 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. He can
24 answer.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 58 1 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: I think he
2 said something. He said he was -- he was --
3 he was -- he was told you don't have visa for
4 France, and since he's passing France, that he
5 cannot go.
6 MR. SMITH: Okay.
7 (Interpreters discussing.)
8 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Okay. He just
9 said that he was told he couldn't go because
10 he's passing many transits.
11 MR. SMITH: Okay.
12 INTERPRETER ODANGA: He didn't say
13 France in particular.
14 BY MR. SMITH:
15 Q. So let me make sure I got it clear. When you
16 were in Abu Dhabi, did they tell you you
17 couldn't get through France without a visa,
18 and you didn't have a visa to get through
19 France, was that the problem?
20 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
21 answer.
22 THE WITNESS: I'm saying it again.
23 I got to Abu Dhabi. I was told at Abu Dhabi
24 that I can't go to Dominica because I'm
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 59 1 passing many transits. This idea of having
2 France visa, I was told when I was in
3 Dar es Salaam.
4 MR. SMITH: Okay.
5 MR. HOFFMAN: Is it appropriate to
6 have a short break?
7 MR. SMITH: Do you need to take a
8 break?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 MR. SMITH: Okay. Let's take a
11 break.
12 VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 11:32.
13 We're off the record.
14 (Brief pause.)
15 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the
16 record. The time is 11:44.
17 MR. SMITH: Mr. Hoffman, there's
18 something you want to say?
19 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes. There was a
20 question that you asked and I'm not sure I got
21 it down exactly, but I think it called for
22 whether he had been interviewed by American
23 officials, and I think he answered no at the
24 time.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 60 1 And I don't know if that's because
2 he misunderstood it, but there were two times
3 when he was interviewed by embassy officials,
4 and I just wanted you to know that so you
5 could ask him questions about that in
6 connection with getting an American visa.
7 You should -- can you -- can you
8 translate that for him? Or you weren't trying
9 to get that. Shall I say it again or...
10 (Translation.)
11 COURT REPORTER: You can read it
12 here.
13 MR. HOFFMAN: You want to read it or
14 maybe --
15 COURT REPORTER: She can read it.
16 MR. HOFFMAN: Oh, she can read it.
17 Okay. Why don't you do that. That would be
18 the easiest, probably.
19 (Interpreter reading to the witness
20 from court reporter's laptop.)
21 MR. HOFFMAN: There's no -- she's
22 just reading what I said and, then, he'll ask
23 the questions of you.
24 (Translating.)
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 61 1 BY MR. SMITH:
2 Q. Mr. Salim, would you like to, in any way,
3 supplement answers that you've given me?
4 A. About what?
5 Q. Well, about the subject matter that was just
6 brought to my attention by your lawyer.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. So is it your testimony that you
9 actually were interviewed by officials in
10 connection with attempting to get a visa?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were these American officials?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. How many times?
15 A. Two times.
16 Q. And did you forget to tell me about those when
17 I asked you earlier today?
18 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
19 answer.
20 THE WITNESS: I didn't understand
21 the question.
22 BY MR. SMITH:
23 Q. You didn't understand. Okay.
24 So do you remember, when we started
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 62 1 the deposition, I said if there's a time when
2 you don't understand the question, just tell
3 me and I'll repeat it or rephrase it?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Why didn't you ask me to repeat it or rephrase
6 it?
7 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
8 answer.
9 THE WITNESS: I've told you right
10 now.
11 BY MR. SMITH:
12 Q. Okay. So tell me, you were interviewed two
13 times by US officials in connection with
14 getting a visa?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. When was the first time?
17 A. I can't remember.
18 Q. Was it this year?
19 A. I think it was last year, but I'm not sure.
20 Q. And where did the interview take place?
21 A. Inside American embassy.
22 Q. Okay. Where, what country?
23 A. In Tanzania.
24 Q. Okay. And you were trying to get a visa to
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 63 1 come where?
2 A. To come to America.
3 Q. Okay. And did the US officials at the
4 American embassy issue a visa?
5 A. I did not get a visa.
6 Q. Did they tell you why?
7 A. They said they were going to talk to my
8 lawyer.
9 Q. Okay. Did they tell you why they wouldn't
10 issue a visa to you?
11 A. They did not tell me.
12 Q. Okay. And then you tried again at the same
13 American embassy in Tanzania?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And was that this year?
16 A. I can't remember.
17 Q. Okay. So it was either this year or last
18 year?
19 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection.
20 THE WITNESS: I don't remember the
21 year, but it didn't -- it didn't take long
22 from the first time I asked for the visa. I
23 just -- it didn't take long before I went back
24 to look for the second time.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 64 1 BY MR. SMITH:
2 Q. The second time. Okay.
3 So the first time was sometime last
4 year, right?
5 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
6 answer.
7 THE WITNESS: For sure, I don't
8 remember the year. I -- and I remember going
9 twice.
10 BY MR. SMITH:
11 Q. Okay. The second time, did the United States
12 embassy issue a visa?
13 A. They did not.
14 Q. Do you know why?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Okay. So sitting here today, do you have any
17 understanding why you can't get a visa into
18 the United States?
19 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. And I'll object
20 to that to the extent that it asks you to
21 testify about anything that your lawyers have
22 told you. So you can only testify about
23 things that your lawyers did not tell you on
24 that subject.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 65 1 THE WITNESS: Fine.
2 BY MR. SMITH:
3 Q. Are you unable to answer the question?
4 A. I've already answered the question.
5 Q. Do you have any understanding, other than
6 through communications with your lawyers, why
7 you couldn't get into the United States with a
8 visa the second time you applied?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Now, you said you were arrested in 2003?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Who arrested you?
13 A. The Somali.
14 Q. Can you identify who from Somalia arrested
15 you?
16 A. They were just Somali.
17 Q. Were they Somali police?
18 A. But then, there were no policemen in Somalia.
19 Q. Okay. Were they warlords?
20 INTERPRETER: Warlords?
21 Q. Let me withdraw the question.
22 Do you know the identity of the
23 people who arrested you in Somalia, who these
24 Somalians were?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 66 1 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
2 answer.
3 THE WITNESS: I was arrested by
4 Somali.
5 BY MR. SMITH:
6 Q. I understand. Do you know who these Somalians
7 were, their identities?
8 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
9 answer.
10 THE WITNESS: I was just kidnapped
11 on the road and they were just Somali. I
12 didn't know who.
13 BY MR. SMITH:
14 Q. Okay. You say you were kidnapped on the road.
15 Can you explain to me the circumstances under
16 which you were kidnapped?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Tell me what happened.
19 A. I was driving. People came and put -- drew a
20 gun and point it at me. I came out and they
21 took me.
22 Q. Okay. Where were you taken?
23 A. In the hospital.
24 Q. To a hospital?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 67 1 A. (Nodding.)
2 Q. Do you know the name of the hospital?
3 A. I don't remember.
4 Q. Okay. And do you know why you were taken to a
5 hospital?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you tell me?
8 A. Yes. I was beaten. They beat me a lot.
9 Q. So they beat you when they pulled you over on
10 the side of the road?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you were beaten to the point where you
13 needed to be taken to the hospital?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And the same people that beat you took you to
16 the hospital?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When did this happen in 2003?
19 A. I don't remember the month, but it was in
20 2003.
21 Q. Okay. Do you remember what time of the year
22 it was?
23 A. I don't remember.
24 Q. Was anyone with you in that car when you were
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 68 1 pulled over by these Somalis?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Who was with you?
4 A. Abdul Salam.
5 Q. And where were the two of you going?
6 A. I was taking him to his job.
7 Q. And was he taken into captivity, too?
8 A. No.
9 Q. He was not?
10 A. No.
11 Q. So you were the driver of the car and he was
12 the passenger?
13 A. He's the owner of the car.
14 Q. Yes. He was a passenger in the car when you
15 were pulled over by these Somalis?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And then these Somalis pulled the car over,
18 dragged you out and beat you, but left him in
19 the car?
20 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but you can
21 answer.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 BY MR. SMITH:
24 Q. And the Somalis, then, put you into their car
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 69 1 and took you to the hospital?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And they left Abdul Salim (sic) behind with
4 his car?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you ever see Abdul Salim again?
7 A. I saw him at the hospital.
8 Q. Okay. Is that the hospital that the Somalis
9 took you to, is that where you saw him?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you don't remember the name of the
12 hospital?
13 A. I don't.
14 Q. Okay. Did you receive medical treatment at
15 the hospital?
16 A. A little.
17 Q. Okay. How long were you in the hospital?
18 A. I can't remember very well, but it was from
19 the time I was arrested in the morning up till
20 night.
21 Q. Okay. And during that period of time, Abdul
22 Salim came and saw you, he visited you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you ever see him again after that?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 70 1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay. And can you describe for me what
3 injuries you were treated for while you were
4 at the hospital for that day?
5 A. Say it again.
6 Q. You were taken to the hospital for -- until
7 that evening. Do you recall you told me that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And during that period of time at the
10 hospital, you received treatment for injuries?
11 A. It was not really treatment. I remember they
12 put two tubes in my nose and one tooth was
13 removed.
14 Q. Okay. Did you have any other injuries that
15 you received no treatment?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What were the injuries for which you received
18 no treatment?
19 A. My fingers.
20 Q. Okay. Which fingers?
21 A. On the right-hand side.
22 Q. Okay. Were your fingers broken?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you received no treatment?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 71 1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you ask for treatment?
3 A. They couldn't treat me.
4 Q. Do you know why they couldn't treat you?
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. Okay. Were there medical doctors at the
7 hospital available to treat you?
8 A. Maybe there was.
9 Q. Do you recall interacting with any medical
10 doctors while you were at the hospital that
11 day?
12 A. I don't remember.
13 Q. Okay. Were you free to leave the hospital
14 that day?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Who was holding you in captivity?
17 A. The Somali.
18 Q. At gun point?
19 A. They did not put the -- point the gun at me,
20 but they were just around.
21 Q. Okay. All right. Were there any other
22 injuries that you sustained from that beating
23 for which you didn't receive medical
24 treatment?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 72 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What were the other injuries?
3 A. My nose.
4 Q. Okay. What happened to your nose?
5 A. This side, it got fractured here.
6 (Gesturing.)
7 Q. Okay. Did you ever receive treatment for a
8 fractured nose?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Any other injuries?
11 A. My jaws.
12 Q. Was your jaw broken?
13 A. It was just hurting so, a lot.
14 Q. I'm sorry. It was?
15 A. It was hurting a lot.
16 Q. You mean swollen?
17 A. No. Painful.
18 Q. Painful. Okay.
19 Any other injuries?
20 A. My ears.
21 Q. What happened to your ears?
22 A. It was bleeding.
23 Q. Okay. Any other injuries?
24 A. I don't remember right now. If I remember,
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 73 1 I'll let you know.
2 Q. Okay. And did you ask to be treated for these
3 other injuries?
4 A. I want to tell you, there was no means of
5 treating me at this hospital because they took
6 me -- they took me away to another place.
7 Q. Okay. All right. But my question, I guess,
8 is did you ask to be treated while you were at
9 the hospital for these other injuries?
10 A. I can't remember.
11 Q. Okay.
12 MR. HOFFMAN: Is there a --
13 (Interpreter discussion.)
14 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: Meaning they
15 -- they didn't have any intention of treating
16 in that hospital. There was no intention --
17 the doctor didn't have the intention to treat
18 him in the hospital.
19 INTERPRETER ODANGA: They didn't
20 have intention to treat me.
21 MR. SMITH: They did not have an
22 intention?
23 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Uh-huh.
24 BY MR. SMITH:
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 74 1 Q. Okay. So did you receive any medical
2 treatment while you were at the hospital?
3 A. The only thing I remember is them inserting
4 the pipe.
5 Q. Okay. All right. And then you left the
6 hospital that evening?
7 A. At night.
8 Q. Okay. And you were taken away by the same
9 Somalis who took you into captivity?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you ever find out the identity of the
12 Somalis that took you into captivity?
13 A. I remember one was called Mohamed Deere, he
14 was kind of like the boss.
15 Q. How do you spell his last name?
16 A. D-E-E-R-E.
17 Q. Did you ever learn the identity of any of the
18 other Somalis?
19 A. They were just Somalians.
20 Q. Okay. Where did they take you that night?
21 A. The airport.
22 Q. Where?
23 A. Mogadishu.
24 Q. And it was Mohamed Deere and his people that
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 75 1 took you to the airport?
2 A. I remember something like that.
3 Q. Was anyone else taken with you?
4 A. No.
5 Q. And when you got to the airport, what
6 happened?
7 A. Some Americans came.
8 Q. And what happened?
9 A. They took my fingerprint.
10 Q. Anything else?
11 A. They asked me questions. They told me that
12 I've changed my appearance, I'm not Suleiman.
13 Q. Anything else?
14 A. Just that.
15 Q. Okay. Did you tell them -- strike that.
16 Did they ask you for your name?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What name did you give them?
19 A. Suleiman Abdullah Salim.
20 Q. Okay. How many Americans were there that
21 interviewed you?
22 A. I don't recall very well. Could be four or
23 five.
24 Q. And how long did this questioning last?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 76 1 A. Not too long.
2 Q. Okay. And what happened after the
3 questioning?
4 A. They took me by their own plane to another
5 airport.
6 Q. Who took you?
7 A. The Americans.
8 Q. So the Somalians turned you over to Americans?
9 A. I'm not sure if they turned me, but I was
10 taken by American from there.
11 Q. Were the Somalians still with you when you got
12 in the airport?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Okay. And where were you taken to?
15 A. Another airport.
16 Q. And you were taken there by the same Americans
17 who interviewed you?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. And what happened at the next airport?
20 A. Another plane came --
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. -- to take me.
23 Q. Tell me what happened.
24 A. Took me to Kenya.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 77 1 Q. And were these Americans who took you on this
2 plane?
3 A. Kenyans.
4 Q. So the Americans turned you over to Kenyan
5 officials?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And do you know where this airport was
8 located?
9 A. Mogadishu.
10 Q. And where were you taken to by the Kenyans?
11 A. To the police.
12 Q. To the police station?
13 A. Something like that.
14 Q. Okay. In Mogadishu?
15 A. In Kenya.
16 Q. Kenya, okay.
17 And how long were you kept at the
18 police station?
19 A. I don't remember very well, but it's between
20 seven and eight days.
21 Q. Okay. Were any Americans involved during
22 these seven or eight days?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So there were Americans at the Kenyan police
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 78 1 station?
2 A. I want to clarify that. I was in Kenya, they
3 asked me questions, then Americans also came
4 and asked me questions.
5 Q. At the police station?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. All right. And you were held there for
8 seven to eight days?
9 A. Yes, something like that.
10 Q. And you were being held by Kenyan officials,
11 correct?
12 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
13 answer.
14 THE WITNESS: I was in Kenya, but I
15 didn't know who I was under now, whether I was
16 under America or Kenya. I only know I was in
17 Kenya.
18 BY MR. SMITH:
19 Q. Do you know, now, whether you were being held
20 by Kenyan officials during those seven to
21 eight days?
22 MR. HOFFMAN: I'll object to that to
23 the extent that it asks for attorney/client
24 communications. So if you can answer without
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 79 1 that, that's fine.
2 (Translating.)
3 BY MR. SMITH:
4 Q. Are you able to answer the question, sir?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What is your answer?
7 A. Can you ask the question again?
8 Q. Sure. I'll have the court reporter read it
9 back.
10 (Whereupon, the record was read back
11 by the court reporter as follows:
12 "Do you know, now, whether you were
13 being held by Kenyan officials
14 during those seven or eight days?")
15 (Translating.)
16 MR. HOFFMAN: Is there a problem?
17 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: No. I --
18 there was a word, maybe, she should have used.
19 (Interpreter Kendagor discussing.)
20 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Okay. He
21 wanted me to say it, so I'll just go ahead and
22 say what I said.
23 (Interpreter Odanga translating
24 question again.)
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 80 1 THE WITNESS: I can't know who was
2 holding me, but the Kenyan police told me that
3 I did not -- I was not -- I did not do
4 anything wrong, but because I was injured, the
5 American people are going to take me to treat
6 me because I was -- just to give me my rights.
7 BY MR. SMITH:
8 Q. You were told that while you were being held
9 at this station?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. Do you know the name of that Kenyan
12 police officer?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Now, while you were held during these seven or
15 eight days in this station, were you
16 interrogated by anyone?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. By whom?
19 A. Both Kenyans and Americans.
20 Q. Do you have any memory of the interrogations
21 by the Kenyan officials?
22 A. They asked me questions like where were you
23 born, where you from, and then they told me I
24 was innocent.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 81 1 Q. Innocent of what?
2 A. I don't know. They arrested me and they told
3 me I didn't have -- I didn't do anything.
4 Q. Who arrested you?
5 A. The Somali.
6 Q. But did the Kenyans arrest you?
7 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but he can
8 answer.
9 THE WITNESS: The Somalians arrested
10 me, they handed me over to Americans, the
11 Americans handed me over to Kenyans.
12 BY MR. SMITH:
13 Q. Okay. Were you under arrest by the Kenyans?
14 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
15 answer.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, with Kenyans and
17 Americans.
18 BY MR. SMITH:
19 Q. Okay. Now, were you free to leave this
20 facility where you were being held?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Who told you that you were not free to leave?
23 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
24 answer.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 82 1 THE WITNESS: Repeat the question.
2 BY MR. SMITH:
3 Q. Who told you that you were not free to leave?
4 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
5 answer, if you can.
6 THE WITNESS: I was under the
7 police. If I was in my -- in a room, if I
8 left the room, I was going to the bathroom,
9 and I was under them.
10 BY MR. SMITH:
11 Q. While you were there for the seven or eight
12 days, were you held in a cell?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And who controlled the cell, was it Kenyans or
15 Americans?
16 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
17 answer, if you can.
18 THE WITNESS: Kenyans.
19 BY MR. SMITH:
20 Q. Okay. And you're saying that while you were
21 held during these seven or eight days, you
22 were also questioned by Americans?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. How many times?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 83 1 A. I don't remember.
2 Q. Was it more than once?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you remember how many Americans?
5 A. The one that asked -- interrogated me?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. I don't remember. Maybe one.
8 Q. Okay. Can you describe that person for the
9 record?
10 A. I don't remember.
11 Q. Was the person dressed in a military outfit?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you remember any questions that the
14 American asked you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Was it a man or a woman who was asking you
17 questions?
18 A. A man.
19 Q. Okay. Tell me what you recall about the
20 questions that were asked and the answers that
21 you gave.
22 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
23 answer, if you can.
24 THE WITNESS: It's more the
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 84 1 questions that you asked me, where I was born,
2 what I did, from where to -- things like that.
3 BY MR. SMITH:
4 Q. Okay. Now, during the period of time that you
5 were held in captivity for those seven or
6 eight days, were you subjected to any beatings
7 by anyone?
8 A. I don't remember being beaten.
9 Q. Okay. Did you sustain any injuries while you
10 were held in captivity during those seven or
11 eight days?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What injuries did you sustain?
14 A. I was having the pain due to the initial
15 injury.
16 Q. Okay. So you were still suffering from the
17 injuries from the beating that you got from
18 the Somalis?
19 A. Yes.
20 (Whereupon, Salim Exhibit Nos. 1 and
21 8 were marked for identification.)
22 Q. Okay. Now, I'm going to hand to you what I've
23 marked as Exhibit No. 8. Let me just state
24 for the record that my exhibit numbers are
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 85 1 tied to an outline, so I'll get back to 1
2 through 7, but here is Exhibit No. 1, Exhibit
3 No. 8.
4 For the record, let me identify
5 Exhibit No. 8 as a copy of the complaint that
6 was filed in the United States District Court
7 for the Eastern District of Washington.
8 Mr. Salim, have you seen this
9 document before?
10 A. I can't remember.
11 Q. Okay. Have you ever seen a version of this
12 document in Swahili?
13 A. I can't remember.
14 Q. Can't remember.
15 Turn, if you would, to the page
16 that's marked as exhibit -- or page No. 32.
17 Does the witness have page 32 before
18 him?
19 A. No.
20 Q. He does not have page 32 in front of him?
21 MR. HOFFMAN: No, he does. He does.
22 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Oh, I think I
23 -- I thought you were asking me if he had seen
24 it before.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 86 1 MR. SMITH: Okay. No.
2 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Sorry.
3 BY MR. SMITH:
4 Q. So I want to read paragraph No. 72. I'm going
5 to read the first two sentences, the first two
6 sentences into the record.
7 Do you see where it says: "On or
8 about March 15, 2003, agents from the CIA and
9 the Kenyan National Intelligence Service
10 abducted Mr. Salim in Mogadishu," do you see
11 that?
12 A. I see it.
13 Q. So is it your testimony, sir, that agents from
14 the CIA abducted you on or about March 15,
15 2003?
16 A. I said the Somali people.
17 Q. The Somali people. Okay.
18 But let me -- let me move to the
19 next sentence in paragraph 72. Do you see
20 where it says, quote: "He was rendered to
21 Nairobi, Kenya, where he was secretly detained
22 and interrogated on a daily basis for some
23 eight days by Kenyan authorities." Do you see
24 that?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 87 1 A. (Translating.)
2 Q. Do you see that, sir?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is that true?
5 A. That's what I told you.
6 Q. Well, this, in your complaint here, it says
7 that you were interrogated by Kenyan
8 authorities. Do you see that?
9 MR. HOFFMAN: There's not a
10 question.
11 BY MR. SMITH:
12 Q. Do you see that?
13 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but you can
14 answer.
15 THE WITNESS: My response to this is
16 that I was asked -- I was interrogated by
17 Kenyans and Americans.
18 BY MR. SMITH:
19 Q. Okay. So when you were being detained for
20 those seven or eight days, is it true that you
21 were being detained by the Kenyan National
22 Intelligence Service?
23 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection.
24 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 88 1 BY MR. SMITH:
2 Q. All right. Okay. Now, during this period of
3 time that you were questioned by both the
4 Kenyan authorities and the CIA
5 representatives, were you asked about any
6 affiliations that you had with Al-Qaeda?
7 A. They did not mention any Al-Qaeda, but they
8 were asking me if I knew certain people.
9 Q. Were you ever interrogated by American
10 officials about any affiliations that you had
11 with Al-Qaeda?
12 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but you can
13 answer.
14 THE WITNESS: They never mention --
15 asked me anything about Al-Qaeda. They just
16 asked me question about me.
17 BY MR. SMITH:
18 Q. After seven or eight days, you were released
19 from that facility, is that right?
20 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but you can
21 answer.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes. I remember.
23 BY MR. SMITH:
24 Q. Okay. What happened next?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 89 1 A. I remember the Americans came, they took me to
2 the airport.
3 Q. And these Americans, do you know where they
4 were from?
5 A. They told me they were from the embassy.
6 Q. From the embassy. Do you know if they were
7 Army officials?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Were they CIA agents?
10 A. They didn't tell me.
11 Q. They said they were from the US embassy?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. From which country?
14 A. Kenya.
15 Q. And you're saying they took you to an airport?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And then what happened when you got to the
18 airport?
19 A. I was taken from Kenyan airport -- I was taken
20 from the Kenyan airport to Somali by the
21 American, the first -- the first one that
22 interrogated me are the ones that took me.
23 Q. The Americans who interrogated you when?
24 A. When I was in Somali, the ones that
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 90 1 interrogated me when I was in Somali.
2 Q. At the airport?
3 A. Yes, at the airport.
4 Q. And that's -- those same individuals took you
5 to the airport in Kenya?
6 A. They are the one that handed me to Kenyans
7 and, then, the Kenyans handed me to the same
8 people that handed me back to Kenyans.
9 Q. Okay. So when you got to the Kenyan airport,
10 were you taken back to Somalia?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. And who took you back to Somalia?
13 A. The Americans.
14 Q. Okay. And what happened to you after you got
15 back to Somalia?
16 A. I remember being interrogated by one Somali.
17 Q. Where did that interrogation take place?
18 A. It was just like a house.
19 Q. Where in Somalia?
20 A. Bossasso.
21 Q. Okay. So you were -- the Americans brought
22 you to a house where you were interrogated by
23 Somali officials?
24 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 91 1 answer, if you can.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 BY MR. SMITH:
4 Q. Okay. How long did that interrogation last?
5 A. It was just a short period.
6 Q. Okay. And during that interrogation by the
7 Somalis, were you beaten?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And what happened after that interrogation?
10 A. I was taken to Djibouti.
11 Q. By whom?
12 A. The Americans.
13 Q. And what happened at Djibouti?
14 Let me withdraw the question.
15 Mr. Salim, when you were taken to
16 Djibouti, were you turned over -- you were
17 taken there by Americans, correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And were you turned over to others?
20 A. No.
21 Q. How long did you stay in Djibouti?
22 A. It was just hours.
23 Q. Hours. Okay.
24 And you were in custody by the US
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 92 1 while you were in Djibouti?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. And you stayed there for some hours?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Where did you stay?
6 A. I think it was just within the airport.
7 Q. Okay. Where within the airport?
8 A. It was just at the airport.
9 Q. Okay. But was it at a hotel at an airport,
10 was it in a conference room at an airport, do
11 you remember?
12 A. I was not seeing anything. I was tied.
13 Q. Okay. All right. Did anything happen to you
14 while you were at this airport?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you have a memory of what happened to you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What happened?
19 A. I was raped.
20 Q. And who raped you?
21 A. The Americans.
22 Q. Were these American soldiers?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. How do you know they were Americans?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 93 1 A. They were the people who got me from Kenya to
2 Somali and their voices were just the same.
3 Q. Did you ever see their faces?
4 A. I saw one.
5 Q. Okay. And was it more than one of these
6 Americans who raped you?
7 A. I think it was just one.
8 Q. Okay. Do you know if this American was a CIA
9 agent?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. And can you describe this individual who raped
12 you?
13 A. I don't remember.
14 Q. Okay. Did anyone observe this?
15 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but you can
16 answer.
17 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
18 BY MR. SMITH:
19 Q. Okay. And you were taken from that airport to
20 where?
21 A. Afghanistan.
22 Q. Where in Afghanistan?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Who took you there?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 94 1 A. The same people.
2 Q. Okay. And when you got to Afghanistan, where
3 did you go?
4 A. "The Darkness."
5 Q. Can you tell me what you mean by that?
6 A. It's a jail, darkness jail.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. In Afghanistan?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How do you know that you were in Afghanistan,
12 did someone tell you?
13 A. At the end, I knew.
14 Q. So, originally, when you got there, you didn't
15 know where you were?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. And did you -- do you have a memory of
18 when you arrived at this place in Afghanistan?
19 A. No, I don't remember.
20 Q. But it was in 2003?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay.
23 MR. HOFFMAN: Is this a good time to
24 break?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 95 1 MR. SMITH: Sure. We're going to
2 break for lunch. Go off the record.
3 VIDEOGRAPHER: Time is 12:41. We're
4 off the record.
5 (Lunch break.)
6 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the
7 record. The time is 1:29.
8 BY MR. SMITH:
9 Q. Mr. Salim, are you ready to proceed?
10 A. I'm ready.
11 Q. Okay. Mr. Salim, just before the lunch break,
12 you testified about being transferred to what
13 you later came to know as Afghanistan.
14 Do you remember that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you were taken to a place that you refer
17 to as darkness. Do you remember that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And, Mr. Salim, do you now know that place to
20 be also referred to as Cobalt?
21 A. No, I don't.
22 Q. How long were you kept at this place that you
23 refer to as darkness?
24 A. Not very sure, but I think about two months.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 96 1 Q. Two months.
2 And where were you taken to after
3 that?
4 A. From there, I was taken to a place known as
5 "salt pit."
6 Q. Do you know where this salt pit was located?
7 A. I don't know exactly, but it was not too far
8 away from "The Darkness."
9 Q. Okay. Do you think salt pit was also located
10 in Afghanistan?
11 A. I think so.
12 Q. And how were you transferred from darkness to
13 salt pit?
14 A. By car.
15 Q. Okay. And how long were you kept at salt pit?
16 A. About a year and something.
17 Q. A year and several months?
18 A. One year and several months.
19 Q. Okay. And after salt pit, where were you
20 taken to?
21 A. Bagram.
22 Q. And what did you understand Bagram to be?
23 A. Can you ask again?
24 Q. You said that you were taken to Bagram.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 97 1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Where is that located?
3 A. In Afghanistan.
4 Q. And did you understand this to be a prison of
5 some sort?
6 A. It's like prison.
7 Q. Okay. And how long were you kept there?
8 A. I think four years and some months.
9 Q. And you were released from Bagram when?
10 A. About 2008.
11 Q. Okay. And what did you do when you were
12 released from Bagram?
13 A. I went home.
14 Q. And where was home then?
15 A. Zanzibar.
16 Q. Okay. And have you left -- well, strike that.
17 Do you have any memory of being
18 interrogated by either American military
19 officials or CIA agents, or both, while you
20 were being detained?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I'm going to hand to you what we've marked in
23 the case as Salim Exhibit No. 1.
24 Have you seen this document before
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 98 1 today?
2 A. No.
3 Q. I want to direct your attention -- well, let
4 me identify it for the record. This is a
5 document that was produced by the United
6 States government, it bears Bates labels
7 001530 through 1538.
8 I want to direct your attention,
9 sir, to the first page of Exhibit No. 1. Do
10 you have it before you?
11 A. Fine.
12 MR. SMITH: Margaret, do you have
13 the document before you?
14 INTERPRETER ODANGA: I was going to
15 take it, but Paul, you --
16 MR. HOFFMAN: What do you need?
17 It's there.
18 BY MR. SMITH:
19 Q. Okay. I want to read from first paragraph.
20 Do you see where it says "Action Required,"
21 and then there's redacted information.
22 "Candidates qualify to be transferred to the
23 joint interrogation facility provided," then
24 there's a space that's been redacted by the
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 99 1 government, "agrees to, one, provide more
2 capture data as stated below prior to transfer
3 of enemy combatants."
4 Let me stop right there.
5 A. (Translating.)
6 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Can you just
7 say it, then I translate it, because I have
8 trouble reading small writing.
9 MR. SMITH: Sure.
10 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Like just say
11 it and, then, I'll translate it.
12 MR. SMITH: I'm sorry, Margaret, I'm
13 not understanding what you're asking me to do.
14 INTERPRETER: I'm saying I don't
15 have my glasses to read.
16 MR. SMITH: Oh.
17 INTERPRETER ODANGA: So I'm having
18 trouble reading.
19 MR. SMITH: Okay.
20 INTERPRETER ODANGA: So if you could
21 just read it and you pause, I'll translate it
22 for him what you're saying here.
23 MR. SMITH: Okay.
24 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Yeah.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 100 1 MR. SMITH: Do you have your glasses
2 that you can get them or...
3 INTERPRETER ODANGA: No. No. No.
4 I don't have them.
5 MR. SMITH: Oh, okay. All right.
6 BY MR. SMITH:
7 Q. Do you see -- does the witness see and
8 understand the first sentence that we've read
9 so far?
10 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection.
11 THE WITNESS: I don't understand.
12 BY MR. SMITH:
13 Q. He doesn't understand the first sentence?
14 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection.
15 THE WITNESS: I don't understand.
16 BY MR. SMITH:
17 Q. Were you ever told by anyone from the United
18 States government that you were being held as
19 an enemy combatant?
20 A. Never.
21 Q. Read on in the same paragraph, the next
22 sentence, it says: "Present the candidates to
23 the Detainee Review Board for low level enemy
24 combatant (LLEC) status."
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 101 1 Let me stop right there. Do you see
2 that?
3 A. I don't understand it.
4 Q. Okay. Were you ever told that you would
5 appear before the Detainee Review Board for
6 low level enemy combatant status?
7 A. Never.
8 Q. Did you ever appear before the Detainee Review
9 Board?
10 A. I don't understand.
11 Q. Did you ever appear before the Detainee Review
12 Board while you were held captive by the
13 United States government?
14 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but he can
15 answer.
16 THE WITNESS: No.
17 BY MR. SMITH:
18 Q. Turn, if you would, to Bates page last four
19 digits 1534 of Exhibit 1.
20 MR. HOFFMAN: It's two pages in.
21 BY MR. SMITH:
22 Q. Do you see where it says in paragraph 3:
23 "Suleiman Abdullah was captured," and then
24 there's a space, "Abdullah is a Tanzanian
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 102 1 national suspected of involvement in
2 Al-Qaeda's East Africa cell."
3 Let me stop right there.
4 A. (Translating.)
5 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Sorry. Can you
6 just repeat that again?
7 MR. SMITH: Which part do you want
8 me to repeat?
9 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Just after he
10 was captured.
11 BY MR. SMITH:
12 Q. "Abdullah is a Tanzanian national suspected of
13 involvement in Al-Qaeda's East Africa cell" is
14 what I read.
15 A. (Translating.)
16 Q. Did the United States government ever tell you
17 that you were suspected of involvement in
18 Al-Qaeda's East Africa cell?
19 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
20 answer.
21 THE WITNESS: They've never told me.
22 BY MR. SMITH:
23 Q. Reading on, it says: "Specifically as a
24 facilitator of Al-Qaeda's 1998 attacks against
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 103 1 the US embassies in Nairobi, Nairobi, Kenya,
2 and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania."
3 Do you see that?
4 MR. HOFFMAN: Is there a question?
5 MR. SMITH: The question is the
6 question that was asked, Mr. Hoffman. If you
7 don't remember it, you can --
8 MR. HOFFMAN: I don't.
9 MR. SMITH: -- ask the court
10 reporter to read it back.
11 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. Could you read
12 it back. Thanks.
13 (Whereupon, the record was read back
14 by the court reporter as follows:
15 "Reading on, it says: 'Specifically
16 as a facilitator of Al-Qaeda's 1998
17 attacks against the US embassies in
18 Nairobi, Nairobi, Kenya, and
19 Dar es Salaam, Tanzania.'
20 "Do you see that?")
21 MR. HOFFMAN: Do you see that, okay.
22 (Translating.)
23 THE WITNESS: Are you telling me
24 that I was involved?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 104 1 BY MR. SMITH:
2 Q. No. What I'm asking you is -- I'll ask the
3 question differently.
4 Were you ever asked by United States
5 government officials whether or not you were a
6 facilitator of Al-Qaeda's 1998 attacks against
7 US embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and
8 Dar es Salaam, Tanzania? Did they ever ask
9 you that?
10 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection.
11 THE WITNESS: They never asked me.
12 BY MR. SMITH:
13 Q. Reading on in that same paragraph, it says:
14 "Abdullah denied having detailed prior
15 knowledge of the 1998 embassy attacks." Let
16 me stop right there.
17 A. (Translating.)
18 Q. Did you ever deny to United States government
19 officials that you had detailed prior
20 knowledge of the 1998 embassy attacks?
21 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but you can
22 answer.
23 THE WITNESS: Repeat, again, the
24 question.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 105 1 BY MR. SMITH:
2 Q. Did you ever deny to United States government
3 officials that you had any detailed prior
4 knowledge of the 1998 embassy attacks?
5 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
6 answer.
7 THE WITNESS: They did not tell me
8 directly that I was involved.
9 BY MR. SMITH:
10 Q. I'm not asking that. I'm asking, did you ever
11 deny to the United States government officials
12 that you had any detailed prior knowledge of
13 the 1998 embassy attacks? Yes or no.
14 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
15 answer.
16 Is there an issue?
17 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: I just wanted
18 to, maybe, use another phrase to -- to clarify
19 to him what the question was.
20 MR. SMITH: Samuel, let me ask, your
21 job, at least as I appreciate it, is to make
22 sure that the interpretation that Margaret is
23 giving, you believe, is an accurate one.
24 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: No. She's
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 106 1 asking it correctly.
2 MR. SMITH: Okay.
3 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: But --
4 MR. SMITH: Then, I think we
5 should --
6 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: -- there were
7 some --
8 MR. SMITH: Yeah. I can't comment
9 on that, but my job is to make sure that she
10 asks the questions in what we all believe to
11 be an accurate translation.
12 I don't know if it's accurate or
13 not, but you do. If you have a problem with
14 it, raise your hand; if you don't, if she did
15 it accurately, then I want her to ask my
16 question exactly the way I asked it.
17 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: Okay.
18 MR. SMITH: And if we need to go off
19 the record, I'm happy to do that, if there's
20 some better way to do this, but I don't want
21 there to be any translation in between so that
22 the question the witness is answering isn't
23 exactly the one that I asked him, if you
24 follow what I'm saying.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 107 1 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: Yes.
2 BY MR. SMITH:
3 Q. Okay. Now, having said all that, does the
4 witness remember the question?
5 A. I have never been asked any question regarding
6 my involvement with attack.
7 Q. Okay. So you never denied having detailed
8 knowledge of the 1998 embassy attacks to any
9 United States officials?
10 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
11 answer.
12 THE WITNESS: Reframe the question.
13 MR. SMITH: Well, let me have the
14 court reporter read it back.
15 (Whereupon, the last question was
16 read back by the court reporter.)
17 BY MR. SMITH:
18 Q. Let me ask you, sir, what about that question
19 don't you understand?
20 A. Your question is you want to know if I've ever
21 denied involvement in the attack?
22 Q. No. If he ever denied having detailed prior
23 knowledge of the attacks in 1998 on the
24 embassy facilities mentioned in that
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 108 1 paragraph.
2 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
3 answer.
4 THE WITNESS: I refuse.
5 MR. SMITH: I'm sorry?
6 INTERPRETER ODANGA: He said "I
7 refuse."
8 MR. SMITH: He refuses to answer the
9 question?
10 (Translating.)
11 THE WITNESS: So I answered the
12 question when you asked me if I was involved
13 in the attack of the embassy.
14 BY MR. SMITH:
15 Q. That wasn't my question. Mr. Salim, listen
16 very carefully to my question, please.
17 A. That's why I've asked twice.
18 Q. Okay. So listen carefully. This document
19 that was produced by the United States
20 government says that you denied having
21 detailed prior knowledge of the 1998 embassy
22 attacks.
23 A. (Translating.)
24 Q. Did you deny to American officials that you
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 109 1 had detailed prior knowledge of the 1998
2 embassy attacks, as it states in this
3 document?
4 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. Objection.
5 You can answer.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes.
7 BY MR. SMITH:
8 Q. Okay. So you were questioned about whether or
9 not you had knowledge of the attacks in
10 Nairobi and in Dar es Salaam by US officials,
11 isn't that correct?
12 A. I don't remember that question.
13 Q. Reading on in this document produced by the
14 government, it says, quote: "But admitted
15 that he was aware of impending attacks."
16 Let me stop right there. Did you
17 admit to the United States government rep --
18 or to United States government representatives
19 that you were aware of impending attacks?
20 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection.
21 THE WITNESS: No.
22 BY MR. SMITH:
23 Q. What's his answer?
24 A. No.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 110 1 Q. Okay. Reading on in the document produced by
2 the government, it says: "And admitted that
3 he was recruited as a facilitator by Al-Qaeda
4 operatives."
5 Let me stop right there.
6 INTERPRETER ODANGA: I didn't get
7 that quite.
8 BY MR. SMITH:
9 Q. Sure. Reading on in this document produced by
10 the government, it says: "And admitted that
11 he was recruited as a facilitator by Al-Qaeda
12 operatives."
13 A. No.
14 Q. You never admitted that to the government, US
15 government?
16 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection.
17 THE WITNESS: No.
18 BY MR. SMITH:
19 Q. In this document, it says that he was -- or
20 that he "admitted that he was recruited as a
21 facilitator by Al-Qaeda operatives for his
22 local knowledge, language skills and
23 boat-driving ability."
24 Did you ever admit those things to
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 111 1 the United States government?
2 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but you
3 can --
4 THE WITNESS: No.
5 MR. HOFFMAN: No, okay.
6 BY MR. SMITH:
7 Q. You never admitted that?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Reading on in the next paragraph, it says,
10 paragraph 4: "Evidence: Custodial debriefing
11 sessions of Abdullah revealed the following
12 information."
13 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Can you just
14 explain custodial?
15 MR. SMITH: I'm just reading from
16 the document. It says "custodial briefing
17 sessions." Custodial means you're in custody.
18 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Oh.
19 (Translating.)
20 BY MR. SMITH:
21 Q. Do you have any memory of the custodial
22 interrogations, the questions that you were
23 asked and the answers that you gave, sir?
24 A. I remember some, but not all.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 112 1 Q. Okay. Let me ask if he has a memory of
2 stating the following to US officials who
3 interrogated him.
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. Did you ever tell US officials, quote:
6 "Abdullah is a Tanzanian national born
7 September 24, 1971 in Unguja, Zanzibar"?
8 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
9 answer.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 BY MR. SMITH:
12 Q. Did you ever tell US officials when you were
13 in custody, quote: "He previously traveled on
14 Tanzanian Passport No. AI -- I'm sorry --
15 A0173854, issued 27 June 1997, which expired
16 26 June 2002." Let me stop right there.
17 (Translating.)
18 MR. SMITH: Oh, you can't see
19 without your glasses.
20 (Translating.)
21 THE WITNESS: I never told them.
22 BY MR. SMITH:
23 Q. Okay. Did you ever tell American officials
24 that you, quote: "First came to Kenya in 1993
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 113 1 and stayed in Mombasa with 1998 East African
2 embassy bombing fugitive Fahid Mohamed Ally
3 Msalam, with whom he trained in Afghanistan"?
4 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but you can
5 answer.
6 THE WITNESS: Repeat the question
7 again.
8 MR. SMITH: I'm going to have the
9 court reporter read it back.
10 (Whereupon, the record was read
11 back by the reporter as follows:
12 "Did you ever tell American
13 officials that you, quote: 'First
14 came to Kenya in 1993 and stayed in
15 Mombasa with 1998 East African
16 embassy bombing fugitive Fahid
17 Mohamed Ally Msalam, with whom he
18 trained in Afghanistan'"?)
19 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but you can
20 answer.
21 THE WITNESS: No.
22 BY MR. SMITH:
23 Q. Okay. Did you train in Afghanistan with Fahid
24 Mohamed Ally Msalam?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 114 1 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
2 answer.
3 THE WITNESS: I went to Afghanistan,
4 but I want to tell you how I went.
5 BY MR. SMITH:
6 Q. I'm going to get to that, but my question is,
7 did you train in Afghanistan with Fahid
8 Mohamed Ally Msalam, as it says in this
9 government document?
10 MR. HOFFMAN: Same objection. You
11 can answer, if you can.
12 INTERPRETER ODANGA: He never
13 trained with him.
14 BY MR. SMITH:
15 Q. Did you ever train in Afghanistan?
16 MR. HOFFMAN: Same objection.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 BY MR. SMITH:
19 Q. When did you train in Afghanistan?
20 A. I'm not sure, but it was between 1993 or 1994.
21 Q. And how long did you train in Afghanistan?
22 MR. HOFFMAN: Same objection. He
23 can answer.
24 THE WITNESS: I got trained only
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 115 1 once.
2 BY MR. SMITH:
3 Q. How long did you train in Afghanistan?
4 MR. HOFFMAN: Same objection. You
5 can answer.
6 THE WITNESS: Training or the whole
7 stay?
8 BY MR. SMITH:
9 Q. Mr. Salim, you testified that you trained in
10 Afghanistan. Do you recall that?
11 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection.
12 THE WITNESS: But I told you I got
13 trained one time.
14 BY MR. SMITH:
15 Q. Okay. But let's stay with my questions.
16 How long did you train in
17 Afghanistan?
18 INTERPRETER ODANGA: How long did
19 you stay in Afghanistan?
20 MR. SMITH: Did you train in
21 Afghanistan.
22 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, again.
23 THE WITNESS: One time.
24 BY MR. SMITH:
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 116 1 Q. For how long?
2 A. About six months.
3 Q. And that was in 1993 or 1994?
4 A. I'm not sure. It's around '93 or '94.
5 Q. Okay. How did you get to Afghanistan?
6 A. I left Tanzania, I went to India. From India,
7 I went to Pakistan. Then, from Pakistan, I
8 went to Afghanistan.
9 Q. Who paid for you to fly to -- or to travel to
10 Afghanistan?
11 A. Myself.
12 Q. Okay. And where did this training take place?
13 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, again, but
14 you can answer.
15 THE WITNESS: Afghanistan.
16 BY MR. SMITH:
17 Q. Where in Afghanistan?
18 A. I don't know the place.
19 Q. Well, you traveled to the place, didn't you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you travel by automobile, by plane? How
22 did you get to this place?
23 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection.
24 THE WITNESS: By car.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 117 1 BY MR. SMITH:
2 Q. Who drove the car?
3 A. The driver.
4 Q. What was the driver's name?
5 A. I don't remember name.
6 Q. Okay. How did you come in contact with the
7 driver?
8 A. I don't know him.
9 Q. How did you come in contact with him to enable
10 you to get into his car?
11 A. It was a passenger car.
12 Q. Okay. How did you come in contact with this
13 driver such that he could take you to this
14 place?
15 A. I wasn't by myself, I was with other people.
16 We would go to take by public means and, then,
17 we go to where we were going.
18 Q. Who were the other people that you were with?
19 A. I don't know the other ones, I only know one.
20 Q. What's that person's name?
21 A. Al-Fani.
22 Q. And did these people travel with you from, I
23 guess, Zanzibar to Afghanistan?
24 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 118 1 THE WITNESS: One person came with
2 me from Dar es Salaam, but not Zanzibar.
3 BY MR. SMITH:
4 Q. From Jerusalem. Okay.
5 And you departed from where?
6 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Dar es Salaam.
7 MR. HOFFMAN: Dar es Salaam.
8 MR. SMITH: I'm sorry?
9 MR. HOFFMAN: Dar es Salaam.
10 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Dar es Salaam.
11 MR. SMITH: Oh, Dar es Salaam.
12 Thank you.
13 BY MR. SMITH:
14 Q. You departed from where to Afghanistan?
15 A. Dar es Salaam.
16 Q. Okay. Okay. Now, when you got to this
17 training facility, your testimony is you don't
18 know where it was located in Afghanistan?
19 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
20 answer.
21 THE WITNESS: I didn't know.
22 BY MR. SMITH:
23 Q. Okay. And you were there at this place for
24 six months?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 119 1 A. Something like that, I think.
2 Q. Describe this place for me.
3 A. I remember a big place, a big hilly place.
4 Q. Where did you sleep?
5 A. We had -- we would sleep in the bushes
6 sometimes and sometimes in the -- in the
7 tents.
8 (Witness speaking.)
9 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Oh, sorry.
10 Like the mosque. They would sleep on a
11 mosque, not bushes, mosques or tents.
12 BY MR. SMITH:
13 Q. And what were you training to do while you
14 were there?
15 A. The training was how to do -- how to exercise.
16 We were exercising, we were learning how to
17 shoot, and that's...
18 Q. I'm sorry?
19 INTERPRETER ODANGA: He said
20 "that's." He was learning how to shoot and
21 just doing exercises.
22 BY MR. SMITH:
23 Q. Okay. Who sponsored this training?
24 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 120 1 answer.
2 THE WITNESS: I don't know him.
3 BY MR. SMITH:
4 Q. Well, was there an organization that sponsored
5 this training?
6 MR. HOFFMAN: Same objection. You
7 can answer.
8 THE WITNESS: I know it was a group.
9 BY MR. SMITH:
10 Q. What was the name of the group?
11 A. Harakati Ansari.
12 Q. Can you spell that, please.
13 A. H-A-R-A-K-A-T-I. Then, the other one is
14 A-N-S-A-R-I.
15 (Discussion between Interpreter
16 Odanga and witness.)
17 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Oh, there's no
18 "I" at the end. It's just "R" at the end.
19 Q. Is that one person or two people?
20 A. What?
21 Q. Harakati Ansar, is that the name of a person
22 or a group?
23 A. Group.
24 Q. And what was the purpose of this group?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 121 1 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
2 answer.
3 THE WITNESS: All I knew was that we
4 were going to fight Kashmir.
5 MR. HOFFMAN: There may be a
6 translation issue here.
7 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: I think what
8 -- what...
9 (Translation discussion by
10 Interpreter Kendagor.)
11 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: Yeah. What
12 he means is that that group was going to fight
13 in Kashmir, but he didn't know that the group
14 was going to fight in Kashmir.
15 COURT REPORTER: I'm having trouble
16 hearing you.
17 INTERPRETER ODANGA: I did not hear
18 where he said he didn't know, so I don't know
19 where you got he didn't know --
20 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: Okay. Maybe
21 explain --
22 INTERPRETER ODANGA: -- but I heard
23 you asking if he knew.
24 MR. SMITH: Wait a minute. Wait a
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 122 1 minute. Wait a minute.
2 Samuel, let me just say that I don't
3 know Swahili. Okay. So I have my interpreter
4 here and my interpreter is under, I think, a
5 legal obligation as an interpreter to
6 translate exactly what I say and exactly what
7 the witness says.
8 And she's just -- whatever comes out
9 of my mouth, she needs to translate into
10 Swahili, and whatever comes out of the
11 witness's mouth, she needs to translate it
12 into English. That's her job. She's not to
13 interpret it, try to figure out what it means,
14 et cetera.
15 As I appreciate your job is to make
16 sure that her interpretation, you agree with
17 or disagree with, but it can't be to add
18 things that -- anything other than exactly
19 what came out of my mouth and exactly what
20 came out of the witness's mouth.
21 So if you have a concern, it has to
22 be because you disagree with exactly my
23 interpretation as through the interpreter or
24 exactly what the witness said as through the
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 123 1 interpretation of the interpreter.
2 Are you with me?
3 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: Yes.
4 MR. SMITH: Okay.
5 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: Yes, sir.
6 MR. SMITH: And so if my interpreter
7 says "the witness never said that," then you
8 can't -- I'm not saying that you are or you
9 aren't, it's just that it's not helpful to any
10 of us unless you say I disagree with the
11 interpretation because exactly what this
12 witness said in Swahili was not interpreted
13 into English.
14 Are you with me?
15 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: The way I
16 understood is that what he was saying is not
17 exactly what she was --
18 MR. HOFFMAN: What she said.
19 MR. SMITH: Okay. And you're saying
20 that what -- madam interpreter, what you said,
21 your interpretation was exactly what the
22 witness said?
23 INTERPRETER ODANGA: I interp --
24 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: Maybe --
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 124 1 INTERPRETER ODANGA: I interpreted
2 what --
3 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: Maybe --
4 INTERPRETER ODANGA: -- Mr. Salim
5 said.
6 MR. SMITH: I'm sorry. We can't
7 talk over each other.
8 INTERPRETER ODANGA: I interpreted
9 what Mr. Salim said.
10 MR. SMITH: You interpreted what he
11 said. Okay.
12 Let's go back to the question and
13 the answer that was given.
14 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Sure.
15 MR. SMITH: And let's see if we can
16 all agree what the witness said.
17 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Yes.
18 MR. SMITH: Probably easier said
19 than done by the court reporter.
20 COURT REPORTER: It's going to take
21 a minute.
22 MR. SMITH: Take a minute.
23
24 (Whereupon, the record was read back
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 125 1 by the court reporter as follows:
2 "THE WITNESS: All I knew was that
3 we were going to fight Kashmir.")
4 INTERPRETER ODANGA: You want me to
5 ask the question again?
6 MR. SMITH: No.
7 Are you saying that you disagree
8 with that?
9 INTERPRETER KENDAGOR: No. I -- I
10 -- I think what he -- what I heard him say, he
11 didn't say that we were going to fight the
12 Kashmir. He said that group was going to
13 fight the --
14 MR. SMITH: Let me see if I can
15 clean this up.
16 BY MR. SMITH:
17 Q. Mr. Salim, you were at a training camp
18 learning, among other things, how to shoot
19 weapons, right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And those weapons were AK-47s, right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And .9 millimeters, right?
24 A. I don't know.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 126 1 Q. Okay. What were the other types of weapons
2 that you learned to shoot?
3 A. None.
4 Q. Just the AK-47s?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Were you also trained in hand-to-hand combat?
7 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Hand-to-hand?
8 MR. SMITH: Hand-to-hand combat.
9 A. No.
10 Q. What else were you trained in by way of
11 warfare at this camp in addition to learning
12 how to shoot AK-47s?
13 A. None.
14 Q. Let's just jump to -- that's okay.
15 Why did you go to this camp?
16 A. I want to clarify something. I was using
17 illicit drugs. Fahidi -- Fahid told me that
18 the only way I can quit using drugs, I can go
19 to Afghanistan -- Pakistan and, then, I can
20 learn other ways and I will also learn some
21 Muslim prayers and that will help me to quit
22 drug, using drug.
23 Q. So you're saying you went to this camp where
24 you were trained on how to shoot an AK-47 so
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 127 1 that you could try to overcome your illicit
2 drug problem?
3 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection and you can
4 answer.
5 THE WITNESS: I'll say it again. He
6 told me that we were going to go to Pakistan
7 -- he told me I was going to Pakistan to get
8 some education. He didn't tell me I was going
9 to Afghanistan.
10 BY MR. SMITH:
11 Q. So why did you go to this camp to be trained
12 to shoot AK-47s?
13 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
14 answer.
15 THE WITNESS: When we arrived to
16 Pakistan, they told me that the school is not
17 there, it's in Afghanistan.
18 BY MR. SMITH:
19 Q. Okay. What was the school that you were
20 looking for in Pakistan?
21 A. He gave me somebody's name that, when I
22 arrived there, that would be the mosque and
23 that I was supposed to get my education at
24 that mosque.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 128 1 Q. Who gave you this information?
2 A. Fahid.
3 Q. The same Fahid that we've been talking about
4 since we started your deposition?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So when you left Pakistan for Afghanistan, did
7 you know that you were going to be trained to
8 shoot an AK-47?
9 A. I did not know.
10 Q. So when you got there, why didn't you leave
11 when you found out?
12 A. When I told him, it was a lot of back and
13 forth fighting. I had no ticket to come back.
14 He told me to wait for the ticket.
15 Q. Let's go back to Exhibit No. 1. I'm directing
16 your attention to paragraph 4, item 6, where
17 it says, in this government document, quote:
18 "Abdullah had obtained a fake Kenyan
19 identification card which indicated that his
20 name was Issa Abdikadir Mohamed."
21 Do you see where it says that?
22 MR. HOFFMAN: There's no question.
23 BY MR. SMITH:
24 Q. The question is, do you see that?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 129 1 MR. HOFFMAN: Do you see it.
2 THE WITNESS: I told you in the
3 beginning and the other -- the name was Issa.
4 It wasn't my I.D., identification card, it's
5 just something that I picked up.
6 BY MR. SMITH:
7 Q. Mr. Salim, did you ever tell an official from
8 the United States government, in connection
9 with an interrogation, that you had obtained a
10 fake Kenyan identification card which
11 indicated your name as Issa Abdikadir Mohamed?
12 Did you ever tell anyone that?
13 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
14 answer.
15 INTERPRETER ODANGA: I just want to
16 clarify something. Did you ever tell Kenyan
17 or anybody?
18 MR. SMITH: Read the question back.
19 (Whereupon, the record was read back
20 by the court reporter as follows:
21 "Did you ever tell an official from
22 the United States government.")
23 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Okay. Thank
24 you.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 130 1 (Translating.)
2 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. He can
3 answer.
4 THE WITNESS: I told them that I had
5 the identification card that was not mine and
6 I told them it was in the name "Issa." I
7 don't remember telling them the other names.
8 BY MR. SMITH:
9 Q. Did you tell them that it was a fake
10 identification card?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. And is it your testimony that you don't
13 remember one way or the other if this fake
14 identification card bore the name "Issa
15 Abdikadir Mohamed"?
16 A. I remember Issa, but I'm not sure -- I can't
17 remember if I said the other names.
18 Q. Okay. And why did you have this fake
19 identification card?
20 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
21 answer, again, if you want.
22 THE WITNESS: I said before that
23 this identification card, I just picked it.
24 It was just something that I picked. And, in
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 131 1 Kenya, people had trouble that they don't have
2 identification card.
3 BY MR. SMITH:
4 Q. So are you saying that you had a fake
5 identification card to stay out of trouble
6 with Kenyan officials?
7 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
8 answer.
9 THE WITNESS: It wasn't fake
10 identification, it was just -- it was a real
11 identification, it's just that it wasn't mine.
12 BY MR. SMITH:
13 Q. Well, did you hold yourself out through that
14 identification card as being a person named
15 "Issa"? I'll stop right there.
16 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection.
17 THE WITNESS: No.
18 BY MR. SMITH:
19 Q. Well, what was the purpose of having the card,
20 then?
21 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection.
22 THE WITNESS: Only when I -- if I'm
23 stopped by the police, then I can show the
24 identification card.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 132 1 BY MR. SMITH:
2 Q. So it was your intention if you were stopped
3 by the Kenyan police to show them this fake
4 identification, is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And when you were taken into custody by the
7 Kenyan intelligence police officers, did you
8 show them the fake identification?
9 A. Ever since I left the boat, I never used -- I
10 never used that identification card. I did
11 have it.
12 Q. Why did you tell the American officials who
13 were interrogating you about this fake
14 identification?
15 A. They asked me why I was also called Issa.
16 Q. Okay. Now, turn, if you would, to paragraph
17 4D. I'm looking at the second sentence. And
18 my question is, did you ever tell American
19 officials during interrogation that you "and
20 other compatriots proceeded to Karachi,
21 Pakistan, and were received by Al-Qaeda leader
22 Mufti Iqbal"?
23 Let's stop right there. Did you
24 ever tell government officials that?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 133 1 A. I've never said that.
2 Q. Do you know who Mufti Iqbal is?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Who is he?
5 A. That is -- he was at the mosque where I
6 arrived to.
7 Q. In Pakistan?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Had you ever met him before you met him at the
10 mosque in Pakistan?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Okay. Did you ever tell American officials,
13 as it appears in Exhibit No. 1, that Iqbal
14 took you and the others to Harakati Ansar
15 terrorist training camp in Afghanistan?
16 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
17 answer.
18 THE WITNESS: No.
19 BY MR. SMITH:
20 Q. Did Iqbal take you to Harakati Ansar camp?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Who took you?
23 A. We went with other people.
24 Q. Yeah. Who -- who were the people?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 134 1 A. I already told you that I only knew one.
2 Q. Okay. Well, sometimes when you look at a
3 document, it helps refresh your recollection.
4 MR. HOFFMAN: There's no question.
5 BY MR. SMITH:
6 Q. Do you know who Fazul Rahman is?
7 A. I remember him.
8 Q. Who is Fazul Rahman?
9 A. It was -- he was like the owner of Harakati
10 Ansar.
11 Q. And do you know a person named Abu Walid?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you ever tell American officials in
14 connection with an interrogation, or
15 questioning, rather, that the Harkati Ansar
16 camp was run by Pakistani national Fazul
17 Rahman?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Reading on in the document marked as
20 Exhibit 1, it states, quote: "In Afghanistan,
21 Abdullah received six months of training on
22 assault rifles, explosives and fighting
23 techniques."
24 Did you ever tell American officials
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 135 1 that?
2 A. No, I did not.
3 Q. Did you tell them that you -- or tell American
4 officials that you received six months of
5 training on assault rifles?
6 A. I told them it was six month training, but I
7 only use the -- there for one time.
8 Q. One time. Did you ever tell American
9 officials that while you were at this camp,
10 you were trained for using explosives?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you ever receive training to use
13 explosives?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Were you -- did you ever tell American
16 officials that you received training at this
17 camp for fighting techniques?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you ever tell American officials that
20 while you were at this camp, there were
21 approximately 600 other trainees at the camp?
22 A. I remember something like that.
23 Q. Tell me what you remember.
24 A. There were a lot of people at the camp.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 136 1 Q. What did you tell the government officials
2 when you were interviewed about this?
3 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
4 answer.
5 THE WITNESS: They asked me "there
6 was many people there?" And I said "yes."
7 BY MR. SMITH:
8 Q. Did they ask how many people?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What was his answer?
11 A. I remember I said "a lot of people," but I've
12 forgotten what I told -- the number that I
13 told them.
14 Q. Turn, if you would, to paragraph H in
15 Exhibit 1. Were you shown a photograph during
16 this interview or interrogation of an Afghani
17 national who was taking photographs of the
18 Paradise Hotel three months prior to the 28
19 November 2002 bombing?
20 A. No.
21 MR. HOFFMAN: Whenever you reach a
22 stopping point soon, we could take a break.
23 BY MR. SMITH:
24 Q. Turn, if you would, to the next page, sir.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 137 1 Paragraph No. 5 says, quote: "Outcome:
2 Bagram/Gitmo, detain as a low level enemy
3 combatant."
4 Were you ever told you were being
5 detained as a low level enemy combatant?
6 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. Asked and
7 answered.
8 THE WITNESS: Never.
9 BY MR. SMITH:
10 Q. And you would remember that if you were told?
11 A. I would have remembered that.
12 Q. Your testimony is that while you were at this
13 camp, you were training with some 600 other
14 people, is that right?
15 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
16 answer.
17 THE WITNESS: I didn't go there to
18 train. I found those people there. It's not
19 that I came with them there.
20 BY MR. SMITH:
21 Q. Did you train with 600 other people while you
22 were at this camp?
23 A. No. They come and go. It's not that we are
24 there all the time, all of us.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 138 1 Q. How many people were there while you were
2 there?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Was it more than a hundred?
5 A. I can't know.
6 Q. Okay. And your testimony is that you either
7 slept in a mosque or you slept outside?
8 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection.
9 THE WITNESS: In a mosque or tent.
10 BY MR. SMITH:
11 Q. In a tent, okay.
12 And who fed you?
13 A. We were being fed by the people there.
14 Q. Who paid for the food?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Did you receive any form of compensation for
17 this training?
18 A. No.
19 Q. So how were you able to pay your bills while
20 you were off at this camp for six months?
21 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
22 answer.
23 THE WITNESS: There are no bills.
24 BY MR. SMITH:
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 139 1 Q. So you had no expenses in your life at this
2 time?
3 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
4 answer.
5 THE WITNESS: No.
6 BY MR. SMITH:
7 Q. Who paid for your clothing?
8 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection.
9 THE WITNESS: The same clothes that
10 I came with.
11 BY MR. SMITH:
12 Q. I see.
13 And did you have any understanding
14 of who was paying for the food that was going
15 to all the trainees?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. And why did the training end after six months?
18 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
19 answer.
20 THE WITNESS: I -- I did not train
21 for six months, but I stayed there for six
22 months.
23 BY MR. SMITH:
24 Q. How long did you train?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 140 1 A. One time.
2 Q. What does that mean, for one day?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And then did you refuse to train thereafter?
5 A. I refused.
6 Q. And how did you get out of the camp?
7 A. There's a car that came and took me, then I
8 went to -- I got the plane and then I went to
9 Tanzania.
10 Q. Who paid for the car?
11 A. Fahid.
12 Q. Who paid for the plane?
13 A. Fahid.
14 Q. Why did you refuse to train after one day?
15 A. I didn't want to stay there. Fahid kept on
16 telling me to keep on staying there, but after
17 training that one day, I didn't want to do it.
18 Q. And how were you in communication with Fahid?
19 A. Where?
20 Q. While you were at the camp.
21 A. Sometimes I would see him sometimes at the
22 mosque, sometimes we were not seeing each
23 other.
24 Q. So he was at the camp, too?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 141 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And did you arrive together at the camp?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Was he there before you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How much before you did he arrive?
7 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
8 answer.
9 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
10 BY MR. SMITH:
11 Q. And did he train during the period of time
12 that you were at the camp?
13 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection.
14 THE WITNESS: I never saw him.
15 BY MR. SMITH:
16 Q. You have no understanding if he was getting
17 trained to shoot weapons and learn how to deal
18 with explosives while you were at the camp?
19 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
20 answer.
21 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
22 BY MR. SMITH:
23 Q. Did you ever ask him at any time thereafter
24 about his training?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 142 1 A. No.
2 Q. Never discussed it with him?
3 A. Never.
4 Q. And when you left the camp, you returned to
5 Tanzania?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. To do what?
8 A. That's my home.
9 Q. Okay. What did you do there?
10 A. I did not have any job. I was just sitting at
11 my friend's store.
12 Q. Friend's?
13 INTERPRETER ODANGA: The friend had
14 a store so he would just sit at the store.
15 Q. Okay. And how long did you sit at the store
16 in Tanzania before you got a job?
17 A. Not too long.
18 Q. And did you ever have any other training other
19 than what you've told me about so far?
20 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
21 answer.
22 THE WITNESS: Never.
23 BY MR. SMITH:
24 Q. Mr. Salim, what is your understanding of
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 143 1 Al-Qaeda?
2 A. I don't -- I don't understand anything.
3 Q. Your testimony is that you have no
4 understanding of Al-Qaeda, is that correct?
5 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
6 answer.
7 THE WITNESS: Like what?
8 BY MR. SMITH:
9 Q. Like your understanding.
10 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
11 answer.
12 THE WITNESS: I know they are bad
13 people. They bomb. That's what I understand.
14 BY MR. SMITH:
15 Q. Do you understand that it's a group that is
16 committed to trying to do injury to the United
17 States?
18 A. That one, I don't understand.
19 Q. You don't. Do you know anyone that's
20 affiliated with Al-Qaeda?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Did you ever?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you ever admit to US officials that you
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 144 1 knew two Al-Qaeda operatives in Mogadishu?
2 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
3 answer.
4 THE WITNESS: No.
5 BY MR. SMITH:
6 Q. Mr. Salim, have you reviewed any of the
7 documents that have been turned over by the
8 United States government in connection with
9 this case?
10 A. I have not.
11 Q. Are you aware that there are documents that
12 have been produced in this case that indicate
13 that you had direct or indirect links to
14 members of Al-Qaeda?
15 MR. HOFFMAN: I'll object to that
16 question to the extent that it asks him to
17 respond based on attorney/client
18 communications. So you can only answer that
19 question if you have information other than
20 what you got from your lawyers.
21 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
22 MR. SMITH: Okay. So your lawyer
23 has requested that we take a break, so why
24 don't we take a break. It's about 11 minutes
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 145 1 till three. What time would you like to
2 resume?
3 MR. HOFFMAN: Just 10 minutes or 15
4 minutes.
5 MR. SMITH: Okay.
6 VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 2:49.
7 We're off record.
8 (Brief pause.)
9 VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record.
10 The time is 3:02.
11 BY MR. SMITH:
12 Q. Mr. Salim, are you ready to go forward?
13 A. Fine.
14 (The following portion has been deemed
15 confidential and bound under separate cover)
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 151 1
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3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23 (Non-confidential testimony resumes.)
24 Q. I want to direct your attention, sir, back to
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 152 1 the period of time that you were taken to what
2 you refer to as darkness.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. You were held there, at this facility that you
5 call darkness, for approximately two months?
6 INTERPRETER ODANGA: I'm sorry. I
7 translated years instead of months. I'm
8 sorry.
9 (Translating.)
10 A. Yeah. Yes. I'm not very sure, but it was
11 around two months.
12 Q. Okay. Now, during that period of time, who
13 controlled this facility that you refer to as
14 darkness?
15 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
16 answer.
17 THE WITNESS: Americans.
18 BY MR. SMITH:
19 Q. Okay. And what's the basis for you to make
20 that statement?
21 A. They told me.
22 Q. Okay. So the people who you communicated with
23 said that they were Americans?
24 A. Yes.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 153 1 Q. And did they tell you whether or not they were
2 -- these Americans were affiliated with the
3 United States government?
4 A. No, they didn't tell me.
5 Q. Did you have any understanding of whether or
6 not these Americans who ran this facility that
7 you call darkness were affiliated with the
8 United States government?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. SMITH: Could you read back the
11 question, madam court reporter.
12 (Whereupon, the last question was
13 read back by the court reporter.)
14 BY MR. SMITH:
15 Q. What was your understanding?
16 INTERPRETER ODANGA: He's just
17 asking that I repeat the whole question.
18 MR. SMITH: Sure.
19 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Okay. Let me
20 read.
21 (Translating.)
22 THE WITNESS: I knew them as CIAs.
23 BY MR. SMITH:
24 Q. And what was the basis for your belief that
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 154 1 they were CIA agents?
2 A. They told me.
3 Q. Did any of them tell you their names?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Now, during the period of time that you were
6 held at this facility called darkness, were
7 you interrogated by the CIA agents?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And do you have any memory of those
10 interrogations?
11 A. Questions like where are you from, where were
12 you born, things like that.
13 Q. Anything else that you remember?
14 A. I don't remember.
15 Q. How many times do you think you were
16 interrogated during the period of time that
17 you were held at the facility that you call
18 darkness?
19 A. I cannot recall how many times, but it was
20 almost for two months.
21 Q. Almost for two months?
22 A. All the days that I was in there, they
23 interrogated me.
24 Q. So your memory is every day or almost every
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 155 1 day, you were interrogated?
2 A. It was almost every day.
3 Q. Okay. And can you describe for me what would
4 happen during these interrogations?
5 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but you can
6 answer.
7 THE WITNESS: How?
8 BY MR. SMITH:
9 Q. Well, you were taken into a room, I take it,
10 right?
11 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
12 answer.
13 THE WITNESS: Which room?
14 BY MR. SMITH:
15 Q. When you were in darkness, were you kept in a
16 cell?
17 A. Like a room.
18 Q. Okay. Were other people kept in the room,
19 too, or were you kept there alone?
20 A. Myself.
21 Q. Okay. And when these CIA people would come to
22 interrogate you, did they interrogate you in
23 that room or in another room?
24 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 156 1 answer.
2 THE WITNESS: Another room.
3 BY MR. SMITH:
4 Q. Okay. So they would escort you into another
5 room?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know what the room looked like?
8 A. I can remember one, it was just a big place
9 like this.
10 Q. Okay. And were there lights, no lights?
11 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
12 answer.
13 THE WITNESS: Not too much light.
14 BY MR. SMITH:
15 Q. Okay. And how many people would be in there
16 in addition to yourself?
17 A. I don't understand.
18 Q. Well, you would go into this room to be
19 interrogated, how many people in addition to
20 yourself were in the room?
21 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
22 answer.
23 THE WITNESS: There were a lot of
24 people.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 157 1 BY MR. SMITH:
2 Q. A lot of people.
3 A. Sometimes just one person.
4 Q. Okay. So it would depend upon which day it
5 was?
6 A. Yeah, it depends.
7 Q. Okay. So can you describe for me, when you
8 were taken into the room, what occurred during
9 the interrogation?
10 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
11 answer.
12 THE WITNESS: So many things
13 happened, so I don't know where to start.
14 BY MR. SMITH:
15 Q. Okay. So tell me what your best recollection
16 is. And if different things happened on
17 different days, then just describe for me what
18 you remember on any given day.
19 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
20 answer.
21 THE WITNESS: I remember being put
22 in a box. I remember being hanged.
23 (Gesturing.)
24 I remember being naked and a big
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 158 1 light -- they put a light on my face.
2 I remember being put on the ground
3 in a plastic bag and water is being poured on
4 me. And there was a plastic jug, plastic
5 water jug being put -- they were knocking my
6 rectal area with it.
7 I remember being put on a table and,
8 then, I was tied around while being taken
9 around.
10 I remember there were two boxes,
11 they were -- there's one that was being put on
12 the ground and there was one that was also
13 standing position.
14 I remember being tied on the wall,
15 handcuffed to the wall. I couldn't go up or
16 come down. I also remember being handcuffed
17 and naked in the room with not any clothes on.
18 I remember being put on something
19 like a hospital bed, my -- my hands tied to
20 both sides of bed. They put something like an
21 injection on me and I lost my conscious.
22 I remember, also, them putting a
23 cloth around -- tying a cloth around my neck
24 and, then, they were punching me on the wall,
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 159 1 punching.
2 At the present time, I can't recall
3 anything; if I do, I will let you know.
4 BY MR. SMITH:
5 Q. Okay. Now, what you just described, did these
6 occur in the interrogation room or in the cell
7 that you were being detained or both?
8 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but you can
9 answer.
10 THE WITNESS: Being tied on the wall
11 was at the dark room, the room where I was
12 staying. The other ones, it was different
13 places, but the same place, another room.
14 BY MR. SMITH:
15 Q. Where the interrogations took place?
16 A. They were doing it in different rooms. At the
17 interrogation place was where they were
18 putting lights on my face.
19 Q. Okay. And where did these other things happen
20 to you, sir?
21 A. Different rooms.
22 Q. How many times were you injected?
23 A. I can't remember whether it was once or twice.
24 Q. And when you recovered, when you regained your
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 160 1 consciousness, did you suffer any effects from
2 the injection?
3 A. I can't remember.
4 Q. And did you ever learn what you were injected
5 with?
6 A. No.
7 Q. How many times were you put on plastic and
8 water was poured on you?
9 A. Can't remember.
10 Q. Was it more than once?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. But you just don't know beyond that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. And did you suffer any injuries from
15 being put on the ground in this plastic and
16 this water poured on you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What injuries did you suffer?
19 A. My chest was -- my chest, my heart was beating
20 so fast, my jaws were shaking, and that was
21 causing a lot of pain.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. My -- I had -- I already had a fracture on my
24 finger, but because of the torture that they
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 161 1 were doing, it made it more painful.
2 Q. Did you suffer any long-term injuries as a
3 result of being put in this plastic with water
4 poured on you?
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. Did you suffer any injuries as a result of the
7 injections?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Sir, you said that you were put on a table and
10 tied to a table and spun around. Do you
11 remember that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. How many times did that happen?
14 A. Just one time.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. But it was just for a little time.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. For a short time.
19 Q. And did you suffer any injuries as a result of
20 that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What injuries did you suffer?
23 A. Dizziness.
24 Q. Okay. And did you suffer any long-term
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 162 1 injuries as a result of that dizziness?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What are the long-term injuries?
4 A. I still have dizziness.
5 Q. And what is the basis for you to believe that
6 your dizziness, presently, is as a result of
7 being spun on that table?
8 A. Because they had tortured me a lot, I was very
9 weak and I had no strength. I could not -- I
10 didn't have any strength. I did not eat
11 anything. And ever since that happened, I've
12 been experiencing the dizziness.
13 Q. Tell me about the dizziness.
14 A. Like what?
15 Q. Were you dizzy today?
16 A. No.
17 Q. When is the last time you experienced a dizzy
18 event?
19 A. I can't remember.
20 Q. Now, you said that you were put in a box. Do
21 you remember that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And as I appreciate what you said, sir, one
24 box was vertical and one box was horizontal,
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 163 1 is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How many times were you put in a box and laid
4 in the box horizontally?
5 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Horizontal is
6 this? (Gesturing.)
7 MR. SMITH: Horizontal would be that
8 way, yeah.
9 A. I can't remember.
10 Q. Was it more than once?
11 A. I can't remember.
12 Q. How many times were you put in a box where you
13 stood up vertically?
14 A. I can't remember.
15 Q. How long did you stay in the box where you
16 were put in vertically?
17 A. I'm just thinking that it was about 30
18 minutes.
19 Q. And how long did you stay in the box when you
20 were in a horizontal position?
21 A. It was a little more, but I can't remember.
22 Q. Less than an hour?
23 A. At times, they would put me there, then they'd
24 go and beat me, and then they'd come and put
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 164 1 me there and sometimes they just leave me
2 there.
3 Q. So you're saying that the CIA agents beat you,
4 as well?
5 A. When they were interrogating me, I don't know
6 if they are the one that were interrogating me
7 or not.
8 Q. Who beat you?
9 A. Somebody.
10 Q. Was it an American?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. Was it a CIA agent?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. How many times were you beaten?
15 A. Ever since I was there, it was totally.
16 Q. But I'm trying to understand in greater
17 detail. We're on your -- the period that you
18 were in this what you call darkness for two
19 months. Are you with me?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And is it your testimony that you were beaten
22 on a daily basis?
23 A. Not every day.
24 Q. Okay. But, periodically, you were beaten by
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 165 1 whoever these people were?
2 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but you can
3 answer.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes.
5 BY MR. SMITH:
6 Q. Okay. Can you describe for me what you
7 endured in these beatings?
8 A. I already told you.
9 Q. I don't think you did.
10 A. I told you that they tied a cloth on my neck
11 and they were punching me.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. They were putting me down and -- they were
14 putting me down and kicking me.
15 Q. Okay. And you don't remember how many times
16 this happened while you were in darkness?
17 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
18 answer.
19 THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
20 BY MR. SMITH:
21 Q. And where did they punch you?
22 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection.
23 (Witness gesturing.)
24 BY MR. SMITH:
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 166 1 Q. In the chest?
2 A. (Gesturing.)
3 MR. HOFFMAN: He's pointing at the
4 stomach.
5 BY MR. SMITH:
6 Q. Where did they kick you, sir?
7 A. Tummy.
8 Q. Okay. Same place that they punched you?
9 A. The kicking was more on the lower abdomen.
10 Q. Okay. All right. Now, you also said that
11 during this period you were hanged.
12 Do you remember that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was that in your cell?
15 A. No.
16 Q. It was in the interrogation room?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Where were you hanged?
19 A. Another room.
20 Q. Okay. And can you describe for me how you
21 were hanged?
22 A. (Gesturing.) There was like a pipe up there,
23 then I was handcuffed, and then it was tied
24 there and I was standing.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 167 1 Q. Okay. And how long -- strike that.
2 How many times were you hanged like
3 that by the pipe?
4 A. I can't remember.
5 Q. Okay. Was it more than once?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. And what happened to you while you were
8 hanging by the pipe?
9 A. A lot of pain in my arms, a lot of pains in my
10 back and around my waist.
11 Q. And did anyone beat you while you were hanging
12 from that pipe?
13 A. I can't remember.
14 Q. Okay. And did you suffer any permanent damage
15 as a result of being hanged by that pipe,
16 permanent injury?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you describe for me what the injuries are?
19 A. My back. My waist.
20 Q. Now, you said that you were also tied to a
21 wall. Do you remember that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Was this a wall in your cell where you were
24 kept or some other place?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 168 1 A. The cell where I was kept.
2 Q. Okay. And can you describe for me how you
3 were shackled or tied to the wall?
4 A. So this is the wall. (Gesturing.)
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. There's something tied to it, like a ring.
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. My hand is handcuffed.
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. They come and tie it to that ring.
11 (Gesturing.) It's something that would not
12 let me sit down or cannot let me stand.
13 Q. How many times, while you were in this
14 facility that you call darkness, were you tied
15 to the wall like that?
16 A. I can't recall how many times.
17 Q. Did you suffer any injuries as a result of it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you tell me what those injuries are?
20 A. My waist. My -- the pain in my fingers
21 intensified.
22 Q. Anything else?
23 A. I can't remember.
24 Q. Do you presently have any injuries to your
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 169 1 waist as a result of being tied to the wall,
2 as you described?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And what are those injuries?
5 A. It's painful.
6 Q. Can you describe for me the pain?
7 A. I can't describe how painful it was.
8 Q. Do you presently experience the pain?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you describe for me the pain that you feel
11 presently?
12 A. Maybe I need to tie you here so that -- for
13 one hour so you can feel the pain, if you want
14 to know the pain.
15 MR. HOFFMAN: Can we take a break?
16 MR. SMITH: We can take a break.
17 VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 3:45.
18 We're off the record.
19 (Brief pause.)
20 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the
21 record. The time is 4:01.
22 BY MR. SMITH:
23 Q. Mr. Salim, are you able to go forward?
24 A. I'm fine.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 170 1 Q. Okay. And as I said to you off the record,
2 sir, I don't mean to be insensitive and I hope
3 you understand I have a job to do.
4 And if you find yourself moving to a
5 point where you want to take a break, just
6 wave your hands or tell me, we'll go off the
7 record and we'll figure out how to avoid these
8 moments for you, if we can. All right?
9 A. Fine.
10 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Salim, before we went off the
11 record, I was trying to understand if you have
12 any present injuries as a result of being
13 shackled to the wall, as you describe.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. Can you describe for me what the
16 present injuries are?
17 A. I feel like we should not go too much into
18 that because it's going to remind me of other
19 things.
20 Q. Okay. So why don't we see if there's a time
21 later today or tomorrow that we can pick that
22 up.
23 A. That is good.
24 Q. Okay. Mr. Salim, the other matter that you
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 171 1 described during the period of time that you
2 were at darkness was that you were brought
3 into an interrogation facility naked and a
4 light was shined in your face while you were
5 asked questions.
6 Do you remember you told me about
7 that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How many times did that happen?
10 A. The one with the light was once.
11 Q. And did you sustain any injuries as a result
12 of that?
13 A. I have eye problem.
14 Q. Okay. And did anyone ever tell you that the
15 eye problem that you have is related to that
16 event that occurred to you that you described
17 in darkness?
18 A. Nobody.
19 Q. Okay. Did you ever seek treatment from a
20 doctor for this eye problem?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And did the doctor tell you what exactly your
23 problem is with your eyes?
24 A. I did not know English that very well, but I
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 172 1 remember they gave me the eyeglasses in
2 Bagram.
3 Q. And do you have any memory of a doctor telling
4 you what exactly your problem was with your
5 eye?
6 Is it one eye or both eyes, by the
7 way?
8 A. Both.
9 Q. And do you remember what the doctor telling
10 you the problem was with both eyes?
11 A. I don't remember.
12 Q. Okay. Do you presently wear eyeglasses?
13 A. I don't.
14 Q. Why did you stop wearing them?
15 A. I don't want to.
16 Q. Why not?
17 A. I don't want to.
18 Q. Is it because you don't like them on your
19 face? What's the reason why you don't want to
20 wear them?
21 A. I just think it will make the problem, it will
22 worsen the problem.
23 Q. Did anyone tell you that wearing eyeglasses
24 would worsen the problem with your eyes?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 173 1 A. Nobody.
2 Q. Okay. Now, have you told me about all of the
3 things that happened to you while you were in
4 custody at this place that you call darkness
5 for approximately two months?
6 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but you can
7 answer.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 BY MR. SMITH:
10 Q. Now, do you know a man named Dr. James
11 Mitchell?
12 A. I don't know him.
13 Q. Have you ever heard that name before?
14 A. I don't remember.
15 Q. Do you know a man named Dr. Bruce Jessen?
16 A. I don't know him.
17 Q. Had you ever heard that name before today?
18 A. I don't remember.
19 Q. Did anyone ever tell you, in words or
20 substance, that Dr. Mitchell or Dr. Jessen had
21 anything to do or were in any way responsible
22 for the conditions and the circumstances that
23 you confronted while you were being held in
24 custody in the facility that you identified as
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 174 1 darkness?
2 MR. HOFFMAN: I'm going to instruct
3 him not to answer on the grounds that it
4 invades the attorney/client privilege.
5 (Translating.)
6 THE WITNESS: I didn't understand
7 what Mister --
8 MR. HOFFMAN: You don't -- you don't
9 have to answer.
10 BY MR. SMITH:
11 Q. Turn, if you would, to exhibit marked as
12 Exhibit 8. I'm going to ask you if you would
13 turn to paragraph 74 of the complaint that was
14 filed in this action.
15 A. Fine.
16 Q. Do you have 74 before you? I think you
17 want...
18 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Oh.
19 Q. Mr. Salim, in paragraph 74 of the complaint
20 that you brought in this matter, the first
21 sentence states as follows, quote: "During
22 Mr. Salim's custody by the CIA, he was
23 experimented upon and subjected to a regimen
24 of torture and cruel, inhuman, and degrading
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 175 1 treatment in accordance with the phased
2 torture program that defendant's Mitchell and
3 Jessen designed, supervised and implemented."
4 Can you tell me what the factual
5 basis is for that allegation?
6 MR. HOFFMAN: I will object to that
7 and instruct him not to answer on the grounds
8 that he can only answer that by revealing
9 attorney/client communications.
10 MR. SMITH: Well, then, he should
11 reveal it because this goes to the heart of
12 your claim and this is factual information
13 that we're entitled to.
14 MR. HOFFMAN: Not from him, on this.
15 You want to ask him facts, you can ask him
16 facts.
17 MR. SMITH: I'm asking him what the
18 factual basis is for him to sue my clients
19 claiming that they designed, supervised and
20 implemented a phased torture program.
21 What facts does he have?
22 MR. HOFFMAN: I instruct him not to
23 answer. Go on.
24 MR. SMITH: I'm telling you right
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 176 1 now, I'm going to move for sanctions unless
2 you withdraw that instruction, because the law
3 is clear, to the extent that there are factual
4 allegations, even if they come from a lawyer,
5 I'm allowed to know them.
6 And I traveled I don't know how many
7 thousand miles to get this witness because
8 this was the only place we could get to take
9 his deposition. So I'm asking you,
10 Mr. Hoffman, to reconsider that.
11 Let's take a break for two minutes.
12 If you want me to get you authority to show
13 you I have a right to know it, I will.
14 MR. HOFFMAN: Yeah. Get me
15 authority. That'll be good.
16 MR. SMITH: And you get me authority
17 to tell me that you have a basis to instruct
18 him not to answer a factual basis for an
19 allegation in a complaint.
20 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay.
21 MR. SMITH: Okay. Let's go off the
22 record for a second.
23 VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 4:13.
24 We're off the record.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 177 1 (Brief pause.)
2 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the
3 record. The time is 4:14.
4 MR. SMITH: So, Mr. Hoffman and I
5 have agreed to discuss this further, but we
6 want to use our time wisely here with the
7 witness and we're going to stop in 45 minutes.
8 BY MR. SMITH:
9 Q. Mr. Salim, other than information that you may
10 have learned from your lawyers, which I'm not
11 asking you to tell me about right now, do you
12 have any factual information that either
13 Dr. Mitchell or Dr. Jessen were in any way
14 involved in the circumstances that you were
15 confronted with while you were in custody in
16 the facility that you call darkness?
17 A. My lawyer will answer that.
18 Q. Do you know what an enhanced interrogation
19 technique is?
20 A. I don't understand the question.
21 Q. Have you ever heard of something called an
22 "enhanced interrogation technique"?
23 A. What is the meaning?
24 Q. Okay. My question, sir, is prior to today,
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 178 1 have you ever heard of something or things
2 called "enhanced interrogation techniques"?
3 A. I've never.
4 Q. Are you familiar with a torture program that
5 was allegedly devised by Drs. Mitchell and
6 Jessen?
7 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
8 answer, though.
9 THE WITNESS: My lawyer will answer
10 that.
11 BY MR. SMITH:
12 Q. Do you have any information about such thing?
13 A. My lawyer will answer that.
14 Q. Okay. I understand that answer, sir, but my
15 question is a different one. Do you have any
16 factual information about an alleged torture
17 program that was designed by Drs. Mitchell and
18 Jessen?
19 A. My lawyer will answer that.
20 Q. Do you not want to answer my question?
21 A. I already answered you.
22 Q. Do you have information? Yes or no.
23 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection.
24 THE WITNESS: My lawyer will answer
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 179 1 that.
2 BY MR. SMITH:
3 Q. I see. Okay.
4 You were in this facility that you
5 refer to as darkness for approximately two
6 months, and then transferred to, I think you
7 called it the "salt pit."
8 Does that sound right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, you were kept at the salt pit, I think,
11 for a year and several months. Is that right,
12 sir?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And during the period of time that you were at
15 the salt pit, you were held in custody?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Who held you in custody?
18 A. Americans.
19 Q. And do you know, were they Americans from the
20 CIA?
21 A. Some of them were telling me they were from
22 CIA, some of them were saying they're from
23 FBI.
24 Q. Okay. Now, during the period of time that you
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 180 1 were -- oops.
2 MR. SMITH: You need two minutes?
3 Let's go off the record.
4 VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 4:21.
5 We're off the record.
6 (Brief pause.)
7 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the
8 record. The time is 4:29.
9 BY MR. SMITH:
10 Q. Mr. Salim, are you able to go forward?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. Mr. Salim, during the period of time
13 that you were in custody at salt pit, or what
14 you refer to as salt pit, were you
15 interrogated?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And who interrogated you?
18 A. Americans.
19 Q. And do you know who these Americans -- well,
20 let's strike that.
21 Do you know if these Americans were
22 FBI agents, CIA agents, military personnel?
23 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
24 answer.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 181 1 THE WITNESS: Some of them were
2 telling me they were FBI, some of them were
3 telling me they were CIA.
4 BY MR. SMITH:
5 Q. Okay. And you were there for some 14 months
6 or so, is that right?
7 A. I only know it was a year and some months.
8 Q. Okay. I thought you approximated it at a year
9 and two months, is that correct, or am I
10 wrong?
11 A. I didn't say the correct one, but I just said
12 it was one year and some months.
13 Q. Okay. All right. Now, during that period
14 that you were at salt pit, were you kept in a
15 -- in some sort of a cell?
16 A. It was a room.
17 Q. It was a room?
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. Okay. Were any other detainees kept with you
20 in the room?
21 A. In one room?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. One time.
24 Q. So one night, he shared the room?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 182 1 A. I remember like three or four days.
2 Q. Okay. And other than that, you were kept
3 alone in this room?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you describe the room for the record?
6 A. I can recall a little.
7 Q. I'm sorry?
8 A. I can recall a little bit.
9 Q. Tell me what you recall.
10 A. It was a room like from this wall up to the
11 table there, up to there. (Gesturing.)
12 Q. Okay. So can we approximate to say 10 feet by
13 8 feet, does that sound right?
14 A. I don't know anything to do with feet.
15 Q. Okay. What about 4 centimeters by 2-1/2
16 centimeters?
17 I'm sorry. I said centimeters. I
18 meant meters. Four meters by 2-1/2 meters.
19 Sorry about that.
20 MR. HOFFMAN: That's very small.
21 MR. SMITH: See if you guys were all
22 paying attention.
23 THE WITNESS: I don't know about
24 meters. I can just estimate what I've shown
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 183 1 you.
2 BY MR. SMITH:
3 Q. Okay. All right. Now, did the room have
4 lights?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And did the room have a window?
7 A. But it was high.
8 Q. The window was high. Okay.
9 And was there a door or bars or
10 both?
11 A. There was one door, it was like a steel door,
12 but it was one.
13 Q. Okay. And do you know in what kind of
14 structure this room was located?
15 A. It was like there are people upstairs, could
16 hear people talking upstairs.
17 Q. During the period that you were in the salt
18 pit, did you ever go outside?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Now, can you describe for me -- let's pick the
21 first month that you were there. Can you
22 describe for me the interrogations that took
23 place the first month that you were there?
24 A. I can't remember exactly what happened in the
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 184 1 first month, I just know it was just
2 interrogation, the same things.
3 Q. Well, that's what I want to understand. So
4 during the period that you were there a year
5 and several months or some months, were the
6 interrogations always the same or did they
7 differ?
8 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but you can
9 answer.
10 THE WITNESS: Same. Same.
11 BY MR. SMITH:
12 Q. So describe for me the conditions that you
13 were confronted with and exposed to while you
14 were interrogated while at salt pit.
15 A. Like what?
16 Q. Well, when you were at darkness, you described
17 a whole series of conditions, including being
18 chained to the wall, being hung from a pipe
19 and the like.
20 Do you recall that you said those
21 things?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What happened to you when you were at salt
24 pit?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 185 1 A. At salt pit, I was not being handcuffed.
2 Q. I'm sorry. Not being handcuffed?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. Not being -- I was not, also, being tied on my
6 legs, but when they were going to interrogate
7 me, they would handcuff me.
8 Q. Okay. Now, were you hanged from a pipe like
9 you were, at least as you've testified --
10 strike that. Let me start all over again.
11 When you were at salt pit for that
12 year and several months, were you hanged from
13 a pipe like you were in darkness?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Were you beaten by either the CIA or FBI
16 agents?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Were you tied to the wall as you described for
19 me when you were at darkness? Strike that.
20 Let me start all over again.
21 Were you tied to a wall like you
22 were at darkness when you were at salt pit?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Were you interrogated -- strike that.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 186 1 Were you stripped naked and
2 interrogated with lights shining in your face
3 as you had described to me you experienced at
4 darkness?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Is it fair to say that none of the things that
7 you experienced at darkness, other than your
8 hands being shackled, you experienced at salt
9 pit?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So tell me, when you were interrogated, other
12 than shackling your hands during the
13 interrogation, what else happened to you?
14 A. Nothing else.
15 Q. Okay. Did you sustain any injuries while you
16 were in custody at salt pit?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What injuries?
19 A. I had pain in my hands, my back, hand, waist.
20 Q. Is the witness finished?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Did anyone, while you were at salt pit,
23 do anything to you that caused you to
24 experience pain in your hands?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 187 1 A. No.
2 Q. Did anyone do anything to you while you were
3 detained at salt pit to cause the pain in your
4 back?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did anyone do anything to you while you were
7 detained at salt pit to cause the pain in your
8 waist?
9 A. No.
10 Q. What was the frequency in which you were
11 interrogated while you were detained at salt
12 pit?
13 A. I can't recall.
14 Q. Was it on a frequent basis or an infrequent
15 basis?
16 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
17 answer.
18 THE WITNESS: There's a time they
19 would do it more often and there's a time it
20 would last for some times before they do it.
21 BY MR. SMITH:
22 Q. And did you ever have any understanding about
23 why you were interrogated with greater
24 frequency?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 188 1 A. No.
2 Q. No. And when they would interrogate you, what
3 kinds of questions were they asking you?
4 A. Just the same questions, where are you from,
5 where have you been, where are you going,
6 things like that.
7 Q. Are you saying, sir, that the subject matters
8 of the interrogation never changed during the
9 entire period you were held at salt pit?
10 A. Never changed.
11 Q. And why were you taken from salt pit, do you
12 know?
13 A. Come up again.
14 Q. I'm sorry?
15 A. He said "come up again." Say it again.
16 Q. Oh, you want me to repeat?
17 INTERPRETER ODANGA: That's what he
18 said, but I have to interpret it as what he
19 said.
20 MR. SMITH: Oh. Why don't I have
21 the court reporter read the question back.
22 INTERPRETER ODANGA: I know the
23 question. Can I just ask it?
24 MR. SMITH: Sure.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 189 1 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Okay.
2 (Translating.)
3 A. Bagram.
4 Q. Do you know why you were moved from salt pit
5 to Bagram?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Do you have any factual information that
8 Drs. Jessen or Mitchell had anything to do
9 with the interrogations that occurred while
10 you were at salt pit?
11 MR. HOFFMAN: Just while we deal
12 with the other issues, I'd ask him to answer
13 based on any information that he personally
14 has as opposed to what his lawyers have told
15 him.
16 So do you have personal knowledge?
17 THE WITNESS: Fine.
18 BY MR. SMITH:
19 Q. What's the answer to my question?
20 A. Repeat it.
21 MR. HOFFMAN: What was the answer?
22 INTERPRETER ODANGA: He said repeat
23 the question.
24 (Whereupon, the record was read back
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 190 1 by the court reporter as follows:
2 "Do you have any factual information
3 that Drs. Jessen or Mitchell had
4 anything to do with the
5 interrogations that occurred while
6 you were at salt pit?")
7 THE WITNESS: My lawyer will answer
8 that question.
9 BY MR. SMITH:
10 Q. And what does that mean, your lawyer relies
11 (sic) on that question?
12 A. Because I don't know when it comes to -- I
13 don't -- I don't know -- I don't know more
14 about the law. They do know.
15 Q. And, Mr. Salim, do you understand I'm not
16 asking you about the law. I'm just asking you
17 about the factual information. Do you
18 understand that?
19 A. And that's why I answered you that my lawyer
20 will answer the question.
21 Q. Mr. Salim, let's go back to Exhibit No. 8 for
22 a second. Am I to understand, sir, that you
23 have never looked at this document before
24 today?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 191 1 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 BY MR. SMITH:
4 Q. Have you ever looked at any parts of this
5 document?
6 A. I don't remember.
7 Q. Have you ever -- I'm going to direct your
8 attention to starting on page 32, paragraph 71
9 through 116. Have you ever looked at any
10 document that contained this information?
11 A. I've never.
12 Q. Did you ever tell your lawyers that the
13 information in paragraph 71 through 116 was
14 true?
15 A. I don't know what it's saying.
16 Q. All right. Mr. Salim, what do you say we quit
17 for today and we'll start tomorrow morning.
18 A. What you think is okay.
19 MR. SMITH: Okay. Go get some rest.
20 We'll start tomorrow morning. Let's go off
21 the record.
22 VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 4:51.
23 We're off the record in the deposition.
24 (Time: 4:51 p.m.)
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 192 1 COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS.)
2 SUFFOLK, SS: )
3
4 I, JANE M. BORROWMAN, Registered
5 Professional Reporter and Notary Public in and
6 for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, do
7 hereby certify that on March 14, 2017,
8 Suleiman Abdullah Salim, the witness whose
9 deposition is hereinbefore set forth, was duly
10 sworn by me and that such deposition is a true
11 record of the testimony given by the witness.
12 I further certify that I am neither
13 related to or employed by any of the parties
14 in or counsel to this action, nor am I
15 financially interested in the action.
16 In witness whereof, I have hereunto
17 set my hand and seal this 28th day of March
18 2017.
19
20 Notary Public
21 RPR No. 001420
22
23 My commission expires:
24 7 December 2023
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 193 1 *** ERRATA SHEET *** TRANSPERFECT DEPOSITION SERVICES 2 216 E. 45th Street, Suite #903 NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10017 3 (212) 400-8845 4 CASE: SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM et al. v. MITCHELL DATE: MARCH 14, 2017 5 WITNESS: SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM REF: 18303 6 PAGE LINE FROM TO 7 ____|______|______|______8 ____|______|______|______9 ____|______|______|______10 ____|______|______|______11 ____|______|______|______12 ____|______|______|______13 ____|______|______|______14 ____|______|______|______15 ____|______|______|______16 ____|______|______|______17 ____|______|______|______18 ____|______|______|______19 ____|______|______|______20 ______21 SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM Subscribed and sworn to before me 22 this ____ day of ______, 20__. 23 ______24 Notary Public
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 194
A 31:8 93:19 92:21,24 93:6 174:3,9 175:7,8 Abdikadir 128:20 addresses 31:10 AK-47 126:24 152:17,23 153:2,6 175:23 176:18 129:11 130:15 admit 109:17 128:8 179:18,19 180:18 177:17 178:8,9,13 abdomen 166:9 110:24 143:24 AK-47s 125:21 180:19,21 178:14,19,20,24 abducted 86:10,14 admitted 109:14 126:4,12 127:12 annoys 55:10 180:24 184:9 Abdul 47:15,16 110:2,10,14,20 al 6:5,5 193:4 Ansar 120:21 187:17 189:12,19 68:4 69:3,6,21 111:7 Alexander 3:19 133:14,20 134:10 189:21 190:7,20 Abdullah 1:5,15 advice 51:4 6:21 134:15 answered 54:2 55:7 2:2 5:2 6:3,4 8:17 affect 13:14 allegation 175:5 Ansari 120:11 59:23 65:4 108:11 9:1 11:5,20 75:19 affiliated 41:9 176:19 answer 13:5,21 137:7 178:21 101:23,24 102:12 143:20 153:2,7 allegations 176:4 16:10 18:4 23:5 190:19 104:14 111:11 affiliations 88:6,10 alleged 178:16 24:3 25:2,8,14,18 answering 12:6 112:6 128:18 Afghani 136:16 allegedly 178:5 29:9,11,23 30:1 22:24 106:22 134:21 192:8 Afghanistan 93:21 allowed 176:5 31:1 33:10 40:14 answers 7:7 8:10 193:4,5,21 93:22 94:2,9,11 Ally 43:8 113:2,17 42:7 44:17 46:22 61:3 83:20 111:23 ability 13:14 94:18 95:13 96:10 113:24 114:8 48:6,17,24 49:17 anticipated 14:18 110:23 97:3 113:3,18,23 Al-Fani 117:21 50:10,17 51:1 anybody 129:17 able 52:19 79:4 114:3,7,15,19,21 Al-Qaeda 41:10 53:17,24 54:10,11 appear 101:5,8,11 138:19 169:23 115:3,10,17,19,21 88:6,7,11,15 54:12,16,17,21 appearance 75:12 180:10 116:5,8,10,15,17 110:3,11,21 55:4,5,8,17,19 APPEARANCES absolute 10:19 117:23 118:14,18 132:21 143:1,4,20 56:2,16,19,22 3:1 Absolutely 9:10 126:19 127:9,17 144:1,14 57:6,19,24 58:21 appears 133:13 Abu 53:6,6,13 57:3 128:6 133:15 Al-Qaeda's 102:2 61:19 62:8 64:6 apple 11:11,12 57:4,7 58:16,23 134:20 102:13,18,24 65:3 66:2,9 68:21 19:10,11,12 32:7 58:23 134:11 Africa 2:4 6:11 103:16 104:6 78:13,24 79:4,6 33:3,4 accept 26:18 55:5 102:2,13,18 America 9:24 81:8,15,24 82:5 applied 65:8 acceptable 7:15 African 113:1,15 31:11 48:15,22 82:17 83:23 87:14 appreciate 105:21 acceptance 50:15 agent 93:9 164:12 49:6,11,14 50:8 88:13,21 91:1 122:15 162:23 accommodate agents 86:8,13 89:9 50:14,23 51:17,20 93:16 101:15 appropriate 59:5 13:11 97:19 154:1,7 63:2 78:16 102:20 104:22 approximate 16:7 accurate 105:23 164:3 180:22,22 American 3:11 105:6,15 107:11 16:23 35:9 36:4 106:11,12 185:16 59:22 60:6 61:12 108:3,8 109:5,23 182:12 accurately 106:15 ago 17:4 62:21 63:4,13 112:9 113:5,20 approximated ACLU 7:21 agree 122:16 76:10 80:5 83:14 114:2,11,23 115:5 181:8 acquire 51:19,22 124:16 88:9 89:21 92:22 116:14 118:20 approximately 52:3 agreed 177:5 93:8 97:18 108:24 120:1,7 121:2 6:12 32:10 38:20 acquiring 49:15 agrees 99:1 112:23 113:12 124:13 127:4,14 42:1 46:19 135:21 action 1:9 6:7 ahead 19:17 39:21 132:12,18 133:12 129:14 130:3,21 152:5 173:5 179:5 98:20 174:14 79:21 134:13,24 135:3,8 131:8 133:17 area 158:6 192:14,15 AHMED 1:6 135:15,19 164:10 136:4,10 137:16 arguments 28:1 activities 41:10 AI 112:14 Americans 75:7,20 138:22 139:4,19 arms 167:9 activity 38:5 airport 74:21 75:1 76:7,8,16 77:1,4 141:8,20 142:21 Army 89:7 add 122:17 75:5 76:5,12,15 77:21,24 78:3 143:6,11 144:3,18 arrest 81:6,13 addition 126:11 76:19 77:7 89:2 80:19 81:10,11,17 152:16 155:6,12 arrested 33:16 156:16,19 89:15,18,19,20 82:15,22 83:4 156:1,12,22 46:17,19 65:10,12 address 30:8,9,10 90:2,3,5,9 92:6,7 87:17 89:1,3,23 157:11,20 159:9 65:14,23 66:3 92:8,9,10,14 90:13,21 91:12,17 165:3,18 173:7 69:19 81:2,4,9
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 195 arrive 141:2,6 attention 61:6 98:3 bad 143:12 156:8 157:24 broken 70:22 72:12 arrived 94:18 98:8 128:16 badger 55:21 Bill 4:4 6:13 brought 7:21 61:6 127:15,22 133:6 151:24 182:22 badgering 55:22 bills 138:19,23 90:21 171:2 asked 22:10,20 191:8 bag 158:3 birth 31:15 174:20 23:1 26:14 39:22 attorney/client Bagram 96:21,22 bit 20:17 39:13 Bruce 1:12 173:15 40:4 47:20 54:9 49:18 78:23 96:24 97:9,12 182:8 bushes 119:5,11 56:21 57:7,9 144:17 174:4 172:2 189:3,5 BLANK 3:20 business 36:23 37:8 59:20 61:17 63:22 175:9 Bagram/Gitmo bleeding 72:22 37:10 43:20 75:11 78:3,4 authorities 86:23 137:2 Board 100:23 buy 37:20 46:11 80:22 83:5,14,20 87:8 88:4 bars 183:9 101:5,9,12 84:1 87:16 88:5 authority 176:12 based 144:17 boat 38:18,23,24 C 88:15,16 103:6 176:15,16 189:13 39:2,6 41:2,4,13 C 6:1 104:4,11 106:16 automobile 47:14 basis 86:22 152:19 41:14,17,20,20,22 Calexander@Bla... 106:23 107:5 116:21 153:24 162:5 42:5 43:15,16,19 3:24 108:12,17 111:23 available 71:7 164:22 175:5,18 43:22 132:9 California 3:6 132:15 136:5 Avenue 3:5 176:17,18 187:14 boat-driving call 8:2 18:15 21:5 137:6 171:5 avoid 170:7 187:15 110:23 152:5 153:7 asking 12:3 14:1 aware 9:20,22 Bates 5:9 98:6 bomb 143:13 154:17 164:18 15:20 19:21 25:9 109:15,19 144:11 101:18 bombing 113:2,16 168:14 173:4 27:8 47:19,20 A-N-S-A-R-I bathroom 82:8 136:19 177:16 49:1 83:16 85:23 120:14 Beach 3:6 bore 130:14 called 8:18 20:4,11 88:8 99:13 104:2 a.m 2:6 6:12 bearing 5:9 born 31:17 34:9 20:21 59:21 74:13 105:10,10 106:1 A0173854 112:15 bears 98:6 80:23 84:1 112:6 132:15 154:6 121:23 153:17 beat 67:8,9,15 154:12 177:21 178:2 175:17 176:9 B 68:18 163:24 Borrowman 1:23 179:7 177:11 188:3 B 5:6 164:3,8 167:11 6:16 192:4 calling 18:18 190:16,16 back 13:1 16:1 beaten 67:8,12 84:8 boss 74:14 calls 17:12,21 asks 26:16 64:20 23:23 26:11 28:7 91:7 164:14,21,24 Bossasso 90:20 camp 125:17 78:23 106:10 28:9 30:19,21 185:15 bound 145:15 126:11,15,23 144:16 37:20 38:1,11 beating 71:22 box 19:24 157:22 127:11 133:15,20 assault 134:22 39:13,15 41:12 84:17 160:19 162:20,24,24 134:16 135:9,17 135:5 59:15 63:23 79:9 beatings 84:6 165:7 163:3,4,12,15,19 135:20,21,24 association 6:16 79:10 85:1 90:8 bed 38:11 158:19 boxes 158:10 137:13,22 138:20 ate 14:12 90:10,12,15 95:6 158:20 break 13:9 26:14 140:6,20,24 141:2 attack 107:6,21 103:10,12,13 beginning 129:3 59:6,8,11 94:24 141:12,18 142:4 108:13 107:14,16 113:9 behalf 3:2,17 51:22 95:2,5,11 136:22 candidates 98:22 attacks 102:24 113:11 124:12,24 52:2 144:23,24 169:15 100:22 103:17 104:6,15 128:12,13,15 belief 153:24 169:16 170:5 captive 101:12 104:20 105:4,13 129:18,19 145:9 believe 26:17 176:11 captivity 68:7 107:8,23 108:22 151:24 153:10,13 105:23 106:10 Brief 15:24 26:10 71:16 74:9,12 109:2,9,15,19 167:10,19 169:20 162:5 59:14 145:8 84:5,10 attempt 51:19,22 177:2 180:7 BEN 1:6 169:19 177:1 capture 99:2 52:13 186:19 187:4 best 19:7 157:15 180:6 captured 101:23 attempted 33:19 188:21 189:24 better 106:20 briefing 111:16 102:10 52:3 190:21 beyond 34:19 bring 37:20 38:1,12 car 46:7 67:24 attempting 52:10 background 33:23 160:12 43:4 68:11,13,14,17,19 52:16 61:10 34:22 big 41:22 119:3,3 Broad 3:12 68:24 69:4 96:14
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TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 198 explain 19:20 35:14 Fahid's 41:13 43:5 100:8,13 112:24 frequency 187:10 117:16,17 124:12 57:20 66:15 43:7 113:13 174:20 187:24 126:15,18 127:6 111:14 121:21 fair 8:14 57:1 186:6 183:21,23 184:1 frequent 187:14 127:11 128:15 explained 10:15 fake 128:18 129:10 fish 43:3,11 friend 24:12 142:13 137:17,23 145:12 54:16 130:9,13,18 131:4 fisherman 48:3 friend's 142:11,12 156:18 158:15 explanation 23:2 131:9 132:3,8,13 fishing 39:24 40:1 front 85:20 163:24 169:23 27:24 false 24:24 25:4,6 44:9 fugitive 113:2,16 170:6,17 175:23 explosives 134:22 familiar 178:4 five 75:23 full 43:5,7 176:21 180:3,10 135:10,13 141:18 far 96:7 100:9 Floor 3:12 fully 13:6 183:18 190:21 exposed 184:13 142:19 flown 55:9 further 177:5 191:19,20 extent 64:20 78:23 fast 160:20 fly 116:9 192:12 goes 20:12 175:11 144:16 176:3 faster 22:23 focus 22:24 going 7:14,19 8:13 eye 3:21 171:13,15 Fazul 134:6,8,16 follow 106:24 G 12:2 21:5 22:23 171:20 172:5,6 FBI 179:23 180:22 following 111:11 G 6:1 11:11 33:3 27:12 34:7,12 eyeglasses 172:1,12 181:2 185:15 112:2 145:14 game 19:23 20:5,5 41:19 49:16 57:7 172:23 fed 138:12,13 follows 8:20 28:10 21:3 57:8 63:7 64:8 eyes 171:23 172:6 feel 169:10,13 30:22 79:11 gesturing 20:2 72:6 68:5 80:5 82:8 172:10,24 170:17 103:14 113:11 157:23 163:6 84:22 86:4 95:1 feet 42:1,3 182:12 125:1 129:20 165:23 166:2,22 97:22 98:14 113:8 F 182:13,14 174:21 190:1 168:4,11 182:11 114:6 117:17 F 32:6 fight 121:4,12,14 food 20:24 138:14 getting 15:3,10 121:4,12,14 face 158:1 159:18 125:3,11,13 139:14 45:9 60:6 62:14 124:20 125:3,11 171:4 172:19 fighting 128:13 forget 48:13 61:16 141:16 125:12 127:6,7,8 186:2 134:22 135:17 forgetful 48:12 give 12:16 13:5 128:7 139:14 faces 93:3 figure 122:13 170:7 forgotten 136:12 23:1 37:11 49:23 170:18 174:2,12 facilitator 102:24 filed 85:6 174:14 form 138:16 53:3 56:10,12 176:1 177:7 185:6 103:16 104:6 financially 192:15 formal 34:18 75:18 80:6 188:5 191:7 110:3,11,21 find 33:19 74:11 forms 12:20 given 10:2,5 49:24 good 9:2,14 20:22 facilities 107:24 170:4 forth 128:13 192:9 54:11 61:3 124:13 26:18 94:23 facility 81:20 88:19 fine 7:16 9:19 forward 145:12 157:18 192:11 170:23 176:15 98:23 118:17 12:18,22 13:2,7 169:23 180:10 giving 8:8 105:23 government 5:9 152:4,13 153:6 30:3 33:24 36:9 found 128:11 glasses 99:15 100:1 98:6 99:1 100:18 154:6,17 168:14 41:1 50:4 65:1 137:18 112:19 101:13 102:16 171:3 173:24 79:1 98:11 145:13 FOUNDATION go 11:19 15:20 104:5,18 105:2,11 177:16 179:4 169:24 170:9 3:11 17:16 19:17 21:1 108:20 109:14,17 facing 20:9 174:15 189:17 four 14:23,24 54:10 22:23 23:23 26:6 109:18 110:2,10 facts 175:15,16,21 finger 160:24 75:22 97:8 101:18 27:16 34:1,14 110:14,15 111:1 factual 175:4,12,18 fingerprint 75:9 182:1,18 35:17 37:14,19 114:9 128:17 176:3,18 177:12 fingers 70:19,20,22 fracture 160:23 38:10 39:12,14,21 129:8,22 132:24 178:16 189:7 168:20 fractured 72:5,8 40:24 41:12 43:3 136:1 144:8 153:3 190:2,17 finished 186:20 France 53:13 57:10 45:15,17 46:11 153:8 Fahid 24:10,11,14 firm 6:13 58:4,4,13,17,19 48:21 53:1,11,14 grade 34:16,17,19 41:5,6,9 43:8,9 first 8:19 16:4,21 59:2 53:15,19,21 54:3 graduate 34:2 113:2,16,23 114:7 34:1 35:2,17 48:1 Frank 32:7 54:19,22,23 56:22 grandparents 126:17 128:2,3 52:24 53:2 62:16 Fredman 2:3 6:10 57:13,14,15,15 32:19 140:11,13,15,18 63:22 64:3 86:5,5 free 71:13 81:19,22 58:5,9,24 79:21 greater 164:16 Fahidi 126:17 89:21,21 98:9,19 82:3 94:3 95:2 106:18 187:23
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TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 203 official 7:18 12:10 52:8 54:13 55:10 156:10,15 157:4,7 P 6:1 pause 15:24 26:10 12:13 129:7,21 57:18 58:6,8,11 157:15 159:5,19 pack 44:11 45:16 59:14 99:21 145:8 officials 26:23 59:4,10 60:17 160:12,14,22 page 5:7 85:15,16 169:19 177:1 55:14 57:4 59:23 61:8,14,23 62:12 161:15,17,24 85:17,20 98:9 180:6 60:3 61:9,12 62:22,24 63:3,9 164:12,24 165:6 101:18 136:24 pauses 8:11 62:13 63:3 77:5 63:12,17 64:2,11 165:12,15 166:8 191:8 193:6 pay 138:19 78:10,20 79:13 64:16,19 65:19 166:10,20 167:1,5 pages 101:20 paycheck 44:14 80:21 88:10 89:7 66:14,22 67:4,21 167:7,14 168:2 paid 45:10 116:9 paying 139:14 90:23 97:19 104:5 69:8,14,17,21 170:1,10,15,20,24 138:14 139:7 182:22 104:19 105:3,11 70:2,14,20,22 171:14,19 172:12 140:10,12 penalties 10:23 107:9 108:24 71:6,13,21 72:4,7 173:2 176:20,21 pain 84:14 160:21 pending 9:4,16,23 109:10 112:2,5,12 72:18,23 73:2,7 177:24 178:14 167:9 168:20 29:21 112:23 113:13 73:11 74:1,5,8,20 179:3,24 180:12 169:6,8,10,13,14 people 12:11 17:11 131:6 132:12,19 75:15,20 76:2,14 181:5,8,13,19 186:19,24 187:3,7 17:21 18:15,18 132:24 133:12 76:19,21 77:14,16 182:2,12,15 183:3 painful 72:17,18 41:16 42:10 43:17 134:13,24 135:4,9 77:21 78:7 79:20 183:8,13 185:4,8 161:1 169:5,7 43:20,23 47:4 135:16,19 136:1 80:11 81:13,19 186:15,22 189:1 pains 167:9 53:6 56:21 65:23 143:24 82:20 83:8,19 191:18,19 Pakistan 116:7,7 66:19 67:15 74:24 Oh 23:15 28:18 84:4,9,16,22 old 35:22 40:6 126:19 127:6,7,16 80:5 86:16,17 60:16 85:22 99:16 85:11 86:1,17 once 83:2 115:1 127:20 128:6 88:8 90:8 93:1 100:5 111:18 87:19 88:2,24 159:23 160:10 132:21 133:7,10 94:1 117:15,18,22 112:18 118:11 90:9,12,14,21 163:10 167:5 Pakistani 134:16 120:19 131:1 119:9 120:17 91:4,6,23 92:3,7,9 171:10 pants 37:20,23 133:23,24 135:24 174:18 188:16,20 92:13 93:5,8,14 ones 89:22,24 paper 57:11 136:6,8,11 137:14 okay 7:10,17 8:16 93:19 94:2,7,17 117:19 159:12 Paradise 136:18 137:18,21 138:1 9:22 10:2,10,12 94:22 95:11 96:9 oops 180:1 paragraph 86:4,19 138:13 143:13 10:18 11:19 12:14 96:15,19 97:7,11 operate 39:9 98:19 100:21 152:22 155:18,21 13:8,13,17 14:14 97:16 98:19 99:19 operating 29:15 101:22 104:13 156:15,19,24 16:15 17:16 18:23 99:23 100:5 101:4 operatives 110:4,12 108:1 111:9,10 157:2 165:1 19:14 20:19 21:7 103:11,21 106:2 110:21 144:1 128:16 132:16 183:15,16 21:13 22:3,8,13 106:17 107:3,7 opposed 189:14 136:14 137:1 period 38:4,13 23:15,16,19,23 108:18 109:8 organization 120:4 174:13,19 191:8 46:12 69:21 70:9 24:9 25:16,19 110:1 111:5 112:1 originally 94:14 191:13 84:4 88:2 91:5 26:5 27:15 28:23 112:4,23 113:23 Outcome 137:1 part 102:7 141:11 152:1,12 29:17 30:5,16 115:15 116:5,12 outfit 83:11 particular 58:13 154:5,16 164:17 31:8,12,14 32:12 117:6,12 118:4,16 outline 85:1 parties 192:13 166:11 171:1 32:20,22 34:6,17 118:16,23 119:23 outside 138:7 parts 191:4 179:14,24 180:12 35:9,16,20,24 121:20 122:3 183:18 pass 53:2,8 54:6 181:13 183:17 36:2,9,13,18,22 123:4,19 124:11 overcome 127:1 55:2,15 57:3,16 184:4 188:9 37:10 38:1,4,9,16 126:1,14 127:19 owned 37:8 41:4 57:22 periodically 164:24 38:22,22 39:7,18 129:23 130:12,18 47:14 passenger 68:12,14 permanent 167:14 39:21 40:2,4,17 132:16 133:12 owner 36:16 68:13 117:11 167:16 41:16,22 42:4 134:2 138:6,11 134:9 passing 54:3 58:4 permitted 48:14,21 43:11,23 44:4,14 142:9,15 144:22 owns 30:14 58:10 59:1 49:5 50:7,22 44:20 45:5,23,23 145:5 152:3,12,19 O-D-A-N-G-A 7:12 Passport 112:14 51:16 57:21 46:8 47:9,23 152:22 153:19 Paul 3:3 6:22 15:12 person 12:10 20:6 48:14 49:13 52:6 155:3,18,21 156:4 P 15:13 16:5 98:15 20:7,8,8,9 39:23
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TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 207 soon 136:22 state 8:23 84:23 36:13,16,16,17,20 95:1,24 99:9 96:24 132:6 152:1 sorry 16:10 44:23 stated 99:2 47:1 142:11,14,14 105:22 106:9 155:9 157:8 158:8 45:17 49:22 72:14 statement 152:20 142:15 110:9 114:20 188:11 86:2 99:12 102:5 states 1:1 5:8 6:6 stores 37:14 116:4 122:16 talk 9:9 12:1 21:23 108:5 112:14 9:5,17,23 48:15 Street 3:12,21 124:14 130:16 25:12 63:7 124:7 118:8 119:9,18 48:21 49:6,10,14 193:2 152:10 153:18 talked 16:18 124:6 152:6,8 50:7,14,22 51:17 strength 162:9,10 188:24 talking 16:24 128:3 182:7,17,19 185:2 51:20 52:4,10 strike 36:19 56:14 suspected 102:1,12 183:16 188:14 64:11,18 65:7 75:15 97:16 167:1 102:17 Tanzania 11:14,16 sort 97:5 181:15 85:6 98:6 100:18 180:20 185:10,19 sustain 84:9,13 19:7 21:9 22:21 SOUD 1:6 101:13 102:16 185:24 171:11 186:15 26:23 28:24 31:18 sound 179:8 182:13 104:4,18 105:2,11 stripped 186:1 sustained 71:22 31:22 53:3 54:24 South 2:4 6:11 107:9 108:19 structure 183:14 Swahili 4:2,3 7:7,8 62:23 63:13 103:2 space 98:24 101:24 109:2,17,18 111:1 stuff 46:11 85:12 122:3,10 103:19 104:8 speak 12:15 23:7 129:8,22 134:20 subject 61:5 64:24 123:12 116:6 140:9 142:5 speaking 20:15,18 143:17 144:8 188:7 [email protected] 142:16 22:18 23:21 27:14 153:3,8 174:21 subjected 10:22 3:15 Tanzanian 22:16 27:17 119:8 stating 112:2 84:6 174:23 swear 7:3 53:4 57:12 101:24 specialist 6:15 station 77:12,18 Subscribed 193:21 swollen 72:16 102:12 112:6,14 specific 22:24 78:1,5 80:9,15 substance 57:21 sworn 7:6,9 8:19 technical 15:20 Specifically 102:23 status 100:24 101:6 173:20 10:5 192:10 technique 177:19 103:15 stay 91:21 92:5 sue 175:18 193:21 177:22 specified 37:13 115:7,15,19 131:5 suffer 160:1,14,18 S-H-A 32:6 techniques 134:23 spell 11:10,15 19:3 140:15 163:15,19 161:2,6,19,22,24 135:17 178:2 32:5 45:1 74:15 stayed 92:3 113:1 167:14 168:17 T tell 10:19,23 11:1,7 120:12 113:14 139:21 suffering 84:16 T 3:18 5:6 12:24 13:4,9 14:9 spelling 19:6 staying 140:16 SUFFOLK 192:2 table 20:1 158:7 20:9 22:20 25:6 spend 15:2 159:12 sugar 42:9,13 161:9,10 162:7 29:22 31:9 35:7 spoke 33:15 steel 183:11 suggest 22:22 182:11 35:12,15,20 37:12 sponsored 119:23 Steven 3:10 6:24 Suite 193:2 take 13:9 42:14 49:13 52:21,23 120:4 15:16 16:20 Suleiman 1:5,15 46:10 55:9 59:7 53:9,15,21 54:6 spun 161:10 162:7 sticks 20:3 2:2 5:2 6:3,4 8:17 59:10 62:20 63:21 54:15 55:2,14,18 SS 192:2 stomach 166:4 9:1 11:5,20 21:18 63:23 74:20 76:22 56:3 58:16 61:16 stand 168:12 stood 163:13 75:12,19 101:23 80:5 90:17 98:15 62:2,12 63:6,9,11 standing 158:13 stop 17:8,10,19 192:8 193:4,5,21 116:12 117:13,16 64:23 66:18 67:7 166:24 45:8 55:21 99:4 supervised 175:3 124:20,22 133:20 73:4 75:15 76:23 start 9:11 17:23 101:1 102:3 175:19 136:22 144:23,24 83:19 89:10 94:5 18:1,2,13,18 104:16 109:16 supplement 61:3 155:9 169:15,16 94:12 102:16 23:21 28:20 34:6 110:5 112:16 supposed 25:12 170:5 176:8,11 105:7 112:5,12,23 34:7 157:13 131:15 132:23 127:23 taken 12:9 43:15 113:12 114:4 185:10,20 191:17 172:14 177:7 sure 8:15 13:5 15:6 43:19 66:22 67:4 127:8 129:7,12,16 191:20 stopped 17:11,14 16:9,12 19:6,8 67:13 68:7 70:6 129:21 130:9 started 28:23 29:3 17:20 43:11 28:6 32:9 35:11 74:8 75:3 76:10 132:12,18,24 34:12 38:20 39:10 131:23 132:2 35:23 36:8 38:15 76:14,16 77:10 133:12 134:13,24 39:22,24 40:5 stopping 136:22 44:7 51:5 52:1 89:19,19 90:10 135:3,3,8,15,19 61:24 128:4 store 24:15,16,17 58:15 59:20 62:19 91:10,15,17 93:19 135:23 136:1 starting 191:8 35:21,24 36:1,11 64:7 76:9 79:8 95:16 96:2,4,20 153:1,4 154:3
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91:16,19 144:7 9:4,16,23 48:15 visited 69:22 85:7 withdraw 65:21 twice 52:24 64:9 48:21 49:5,10,14 voice 6:18 wasn't 25:6 27:1,4 91:14 176:2 108:17 159:23 50:7,14,22 51:17 voices 93:2 39:7 47:13 108:15 witness 5:2 7:3,7,9 two 12:11 15:5 33:1 51:20 52:4,10 VOLUME 1:16 5:2 117:15 129:4 8:9,18 18:15 41:18 49:11 60:2 64:11,18 65:7 vs 1:10 131:9,11 19:18 20:15,18 61:15 62:12 68:5 85:6 98:5 100:17 water 20:13,23 22:17,18 25:3,21 70:12 86:5,5 101:13 102:16 W 21:1 158:3,5 26:16 27:16 28:13 95:24 96:1 101:20 104:4,18 105:2,11 waist 167:10,19 160:8,16 161:3 29:13,22 30:3,19 120:19 144:1 107:9 108:19 168:20 169:1 Watt 3:10 6:24,24 33:11 35:7 39:14 152:5,11 154:20 109:17,18 111:1 186:19 187:8 16:20,20 40:15,20 42:8,23 154:21 158:10 129:8,22 143:16 wait 23:5 29:6 wave 170:6 44:18 45:14 46:23 164:18 173:5 144:8 153:3,8 121:24,24 122:1 way 19:23 61:2 48:7,18 49:1,8,21 176:11 179:5 upstairs 183:15,16 128:14 106:16,20 123:15 50:4,11,18 53:18 180:2 181:9 use 11:22 20:13 Walid 134:11 126:10,18 130:13 54:1,15 55:8,19 tying 158:23 27:23 30:9 105:18 walking 28:15,16 163:8 172:7 55:21,24 56:6,13 types 20:24 126:1 135:7,12 177:6 wall 158:14,15,24 173:21 177:13 56:15,20 58:22 159:10 167:21,23 ways 126:20 59:9 60:19 61:20 U V 168:3,4,15 169:1 weak 162:9 62:9 63:20 64:7 Uh-huh 22:17 v 193:4 170:13 182:10 weapons 125:19,21 65:1 66:3,10 73:23 181:18 valid 25:3 184:18 185:18,21 126:1 141:17 68:22 78:14 80:1 ULLAH 1:7 various 40:10 want 7:20 12:1 wear 172:12,20 81:9,16 82:1,6,18 unable 65:3 verbal 12:17 14:17 18:6 21:19 wearing 172:14,23 83:24 85:17 87:15 understand 10:18 version 85:11 21:23 27:15,23 weeks 33:1 87:24 88:14,22 10:22 12:12,20 versus 6:5 31:9 33:22 34:21 went 52:24 63:23 91:2 93:17 100:7 13:4,6 17:15 24:7 vertical 162:24 34:22 39:18 40:24 97:13 114:3,4 100:11,15 101:16 24:8 25:11 26:1 vertically 163:13 49:23 56:6,9,10 116:6,7,8 126:23 102:21 103:23 28:4 31:3,4 42:2 163:16 56:12 59:18 60:13 133:23 140:8,8 104:11,23 105:7 48:18 61:20,23 video 6:3,14 73:4 78:2 86:4 170:10 106:22 107:4,12 62:2 66:6 96:22 videographer 4:4 98:3,8,19 102:7 weren't 60:8 108:4,11 109:6,21 97:4 100:8,11,13 6:2 7:2 12:12 106:15,20 107:20 we'll 21:1 26:19 110:17 111:4 100:15 101:3,10 15:19 26:8,11 114:4 125:4 27:20,20 170:6,7 112:10,21 113:6 107:19 143:2,13 59:12,15 95:3,6 126:16 129:15 191:17,20 113:21 114:3,17 143:15,18 156:17 145:6,9 169:17,20 130:21 140:15,17 we're 8:13 12:9 114:24 115:6,12 164:16 170:3,11 176:23 177:2 151:24 169:13 15:23 16:1 22:23 115:23 116:15,24 174:6 177:20 180:4,7 191:22 170:5 172:15,17 26:9 29:20 59:13 118:1,21 119:8 178:14 184:3 VIDEOTAPED 172:19 174:17 59:15 95:1,3,6 120:2,8,16 121:3 190:15,18,22 1:15 175:15 176:12 145:7 164:17 122:7,24 123:7,12 understanding 8:6 view 56:12 177:6 178:20 169:18,20 175:13 123:22 124:16 50:21 51:15 64:17 visa 49:2,12,15 184:3 188:16 176:24 177:2,7 125:2 127:5,15 65:5 99:13 139:13 50:2,19,19 51:19 wanted 40:3 60:4 180:5,7 191:23 129:2 130:4,22 141:16 142:24 51:23 52:3,10 79:21 105:17 we've 97:22 100:8 131:9,17,22 143:4,9 153:5,15 53:4 57:9,11,13 wants 39:12,14 128:3 133:18 136:5 187:22 58:3,17,18 59:2 56:14 whereof 192:16 137:8,17 138:9,23 understood 123:16 60:6 61:10 62:14 warfare 126:11 wife 32:16,17 48:1 139:5,9,20 141:9 Unguja 112:7 62:24 63:4,5,10 warlords 65:19,20 wife's 32:3 33:2 141:14,21 142:22 UNION 3:11 63:22 64:12,17 Washington 1:2 window 183:6,8 143:7,12 144:4,21 United 1:1 5:8 6:6 65:8 3:22 6:7 9:6,18 wisely 177:6 152:17 153:22
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TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 194 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF WASHINGTON
------x
SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM,
MOHAMED AHMED BEN SOUD, OBAID
ULLAH (as Personal
Representative of GUL RAHMAN),
Plaintiffs, Civil Action No.
vs. 2:15-CV-286-JLQ
JAMES ELMER MITCHELL and
JOHN "BRUCE" JESSEN,
Defendants.
------x
VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM
VOLUME II
March 15, 2017
Reported by: Jane M. Borrowman, RPR, CSR Job no: 18304
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 195 1
2 DEPOSITION OF: SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM
3 LOCATION: Hogan Lovells 22 Fredman Drive 4 Sandton, Johananesburg, South Africa
5 DATE: March 15, 2017
6 TIME: 8:59 a.m.
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TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 196 1 APPEARANCES:
2 ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFFS:
3 Paul L. Hoffman, Esq.
4 SCHONBRUN SEPLOW HARRIS & HOFFMAN, LLP
5 200 Pier Avenue
6 Hermosa Beach, California 90254
7 310-396-0731
9 - and -
10 Steven M. Watt, Esq.
11 AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION FOUNDATION
12 125 Broad Street - 18th Floor
13 New York, New York 10004
14 212-284-7321
16
17 ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANTS:
18 James T. Smith, Esq.
19 Charrise L. Alexander, Esq.
20 BLANK ROME, LLP
21 1825 Eye Street NW
22 Washington, DC 20006-5403
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 197 1 ALSO PRESENT:
2 Ms. Margaret Odanga, Swahili Interpreter
3 Mr. Samuel Kendagor, Swahili Interpreter
4 Mr. Bill Slater, Videographer
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TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 198 1 I N D E X 2 WITNESS: SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM - VOLUME 2 3 Continued Examination by Mr. Smith ...... 203 4 5 6 E X H I B I T S 7 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 8 2 Report of Dr. Sondra Crosby, M.D. 251 9 6 Plaintiff Suleiman Abdullah Salim's 10 Objections and Responses to Defendants' Interrogatories 206 11 8 Complaint and Demand for Jury Trial 12 (Marked in 3/14/17 deposition.) 232 13 15 Senate Select Committee on Intelligence Finding and Conclusions 14 Executive Summary - Approved 12/13/12 233 15 16 Injruies for which Plaintiffs Claim Damages 246 16 18 New York Times Article "After Torture, 17 Ex-Detainee Is Still Captive of "The Darkness" 237 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 199 1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 MR. SMITH: So, Mr. Hoffman, good
3 morning. Yesterday, at the end of day one of
4 Mr. Salim's deposition, we provided to you
5 authorities and asked you to consider them
6 over the night and to give us any authority
7 that you thought was contrary to the authority
8 we were providing to you with respect to my
9 questioning about the factual basis for the
10 allegations in paragraph 74 of the complaint,
11 that defendant's Mitchell and Jessen subjected
12 Mr. Salim "to a regimen of torture and cruel,
13 inhuman, and degrading treatment in accordance
14 with the phased torture program that [they]
15 designed, supervised, and implemented."
16 And you may recall that you
17 instructed the witness not to answer based
18 upon the attorney/client privilege.
19 I objected to that. I provided
20 authorities to you by the end of the -- or by
21 the close of the deposition, indicating that
22 we had a right to understand the factual basis
23 for the allegations and the attorney/client
24 privilege cannot be invoked to stop that. In
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 200 1 substance, that's what the authority said.
2 You said that you were going to
3 consider those authorities and give us
4 contrary authorities and, perhaps, a
5 stipulation. We expected to get that based
6 upon what you said last evening. We didn't.
7 But we did speak off the record this morning,
8 just moments ago.
9 I still haven't been provided any
10 authorities, however, you did propose a
11 stipulation. So what I ask is that you would
12 put the stipulation on the record.
13 My intention is to discuss it with
14 my colleagues back on -- in the United States.
15 It's three o'clock in the morning there so
16 we'll have to wait a couple hours before I get
17 them out of bed, but at least let's get the
18 stipulation on the record so that we can
19 advise our colleague exactly what you have in
20 mind and, then, we'll see where that takes us.
21 Is that fair?
22 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes. And let me say,
23 before I put the stipulation on the record, in
24 response to what you're saying, I did review
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 201 1 the two cases that you sent to me.
2 I don't think that they -- that they
3 exactly state that you're entitled to the kind
4 of information that you're -- that you're
5 requiring because I think what -- what is fair
6 is that you're entitled to know facts that he
7 has. You are not entitled to know how those
8 facts are being used in a legal sense or -- or
9 any communications between lawyers and
10 clients.
11 But in order not to -- to advance
12 the deposition and not to get into fights
13 about all this, we would propose the following
14 stipulation which we hope would be acceptable
15 and would -- would make it easier to get
16 through this part of the deposition, and that
17 is: No. 1, that Mr. Salim has no independent
18 knowledge of facts beyond his own personal
19 experience relating to the claims in this
20 case; that any facts that he might remember or
21 be asked about, to the extent that he has
22 them, have come from his attorneys and their
23 investigation; and that all such facts have
24 been disclosed by the plaintiffs already in
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 202 1 response to defendant's discovery requests.
2 MR. SMITH: Just so we're clear, I
3 do take exception to -- and I want to put it
4 on the record, and I may be doing a little bit
5 more than that following this deposition, I do
6 take issue with whether or not we have a right
7 to know the factual basis for the core
8 allegation that links our client, or clients,
9 into this alleged wrongdoing, particularly
10 that they designed, supervised and implemented
11 a phased torture program relating to
12 Mr. Salim, but I can't go beyond where we are
13 right now.
14 But I will tell you I struggle, and
15 I'm just telling you right now on the record,
16 I struggle to understand the good faith basis
17 on which you can continue that allegation in
18 light of what's been learned in the
19 depositions in this case. I struggle to. But
20 that's for another day.
21 So why don't we just get going with
22 day two of Mr. Salim's deposition and, then,
23 we'll see where we go from there.
24 Mr. Salim, good morning.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 203 1 VIDEOGRAPHER: You want to go on the
2 record?
3 MR. SMITH: Oh, yeah, we should.
4 VIDEOGRAPHER: Here begins day No. 2
5 in the video deposition of Suleiman Abdullah
6 Salim. We are back on the record. The time
7 is 9:06 a.m.
8 SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM,
9 a witness called for examination by counsel
10 for the defendant, having been previously duly
11 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
12 CONTINUED EXAMINATION
13 BY MR. SMITH:
14 Q. Mr. Salim, good morning.
15 A. Good.
16 Q. Are you ready to proceed today, sir?
17 A. I'm ready.
18 Q. Are you feeling well and believing that you
19 can continue to give your deposition?
20 A. I think I can.
21 Q. Okay. Mr. Salim, between the time we left
22 last evening and the time now that we're
23 starting day 2 of your deposition, have you
24 discussed your testimony with anyone?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 204 1 A. I think nobody.
2 Q. Are you not sure?
3 A. Nobody.
4 Q. All right. Mr. Salim, while you were held at
5 the facility that you refer to as "darkness,"
6 did you attempt to commit suicide?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you tell me what happened?
9 A. Yes, I can. You know, I had a lot of pain in
10 my fingers, so they were giving me ibuprofen
11 800 grams, so I decided to hide them under my
12 pants. And then, one day, I decided that,
13 today, I can take all of them. That's what I
14 did.
15 Q. How many pills did you take, Mr. Salim?
16 A. I can't remember, but they were many.
17 Q. Who gave you these pills?
18 A. I don't know the person, but that person is
19 the one that was bringing food.
20 Q. Mr. Salim, do you have any factual basis to
21 claim that my clients, Drs. Mitchell and
22 Jessen, were in any way involved in this
23 activity?
24 Let me withdraw that question.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 205 1 Mr. Salim, is it your contention
2 that Drs. Mitchell and Jessen are responsible
3 in any way for providing those pills to you or
4 what followed?
5 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
6 answer it.
7 THE WITNESS: I can't tell who was
8 responsible for telling them to give me this
9 medication.
10 BY MR. SMITH:
11 Q. Mr. Salim, do you know what an interrogatory
12 is?
13 INTERPRETER ODANGA: For the
14 interpreter, can you just break the word a
15 little bit, in layman term? To interrogate,
16 is that what you said?
17 MR. SMITH: I asked Mr. Salim if he
18 knows what an interrogatory is, Margaret.
19 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Yeah, but I'm
20 saying can you break the word for me.
21 MR. SMITH: Break the word?
22 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Interrogatory.
23 MR. SMITH: Oh. An interrogatory is
24 a formal question in --
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 206 1 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Like
2 interrogate?
3 MR. SMITH: -- America that needs to
4 be answered under oath.
5 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Okay.
6 (Translating.)
7 THE WITNESS: No, I don't. I don't.
8 INTERPRETER ODANGA: He said he
9 doesn't understand.
10 MR. SMITH: Okay. Let me show you
11 what we're going to mark in the case as
12 Exhibit No. 6.
13 (Whereupon, Salim Exhibit No. 6 was
14 marked for identification.)
15 BY MR. SMITH:
16 Q. Mr. Salim, do you recognize what's been marked
17 as Exhibit No. 6?
18 A. I don't recognize.
19 Q. Turn, if you would -- let me just identify
20 Exhibit No. 6 as "Plaintiff Suleiman Abdullah
21 Salim's Objections and Responses to
22 Defendants' Interrogatories."
23 Have you ever seen this document
24 before today, Mr. Salim?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 207 1 A. Never.
2 Q. Did you ever see this document in Swahili?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Turn, if you would, to the last page of
5 Exhibit No. 6. I'm sorry. The second to the
6 last page, page 36 of Exhibit No. 6.
7 Can you put it before the witness,
8 please.
9 Mr. Salim, page 36 purports to be a
10 certification bearing your signature. Do you
11 see that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you sign this document?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you sign the document on November 28th,
16 2016?
17 A. I can't remember that.
18 Q. Did you review the information on pages 1
19 through 35 before you signed the certification
20 on page 36?
21 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. And you
22 can answer.
23 THE WITNESS: I did not.
24 BY MR. SMITH:
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 208 1 Q. Did you review any information before you
2 signed this certification?
3 MR. HOFFMAN: Same objection. You
4 can answer.
5 THE WITNESS: I looked at them, but
6 I did not know what it was.
7 BY MR. SMITH:
8 Q. When you say you looked at them, what did you
9 look at?
10 A. Like just going through.
11 Q. Who showed you this information on pages 1
12 through 35?
13 A. Nobody showed me. I was given the paper and
14 nobody showed me.
15 Q. Who gave you the paper?
16 A. My lawyer.
17 Q. What's the name of your lawyer?
18 A. Steven.
19 Q. And was he present when he handed you the
20 paper?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did it come in the mail?
23 A. No.
24 Q. How was it delivered to you?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 209 1 A. I think through the email.
2 Q. Okay. And was the paper that was sent to you
3 by email in the English language or in
4 Swahili?
5 A. English.
6 Q. Did you have any idea what you were reading
7 before you signed the certification?
8 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
9 answer.
10 THE WITNESS: I just signed it.
11 BY MR. SMITH:
12 Q. Did you have any understanding of what you
13 were reading before you signed it?
14 A. I did not read it.
15 Q. And did you have any understanding when you
16 signed the certification that you were signing
17 it subject to the potential punishments if
18 information in there was willfully false?
19 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection.
20 THE WITNESS: Yes.
21 BY MR. SMITH:
22 Q. Who told you that?
23 A. My lawyer.
24 Q. Turn, if you would, to subpart G.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 210 1 MR. HOFFMAN: Do you have a page
2 number?
3 MR. SMITH: Page 26.
4 BY MR. SMITH:
5 Q. Do you have it before you, sir?
6 A. Yes.
7 (The following portion has been deemed
8 confidential and bound under separate cover)
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 213 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 (Non-confidential testimony resumes.)
14 BY MR. SMITH:
15 Q. Were your eyes covered the entire period of
16 time that you were in the room, Mr. Salim?
17 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
18 answer.
19 THE WITNESS: I'm responding to you
20 again, it was not a cloth that was tied, but
21 it was a dark glass that was put on my face.
22 BY MR. SMITH:
23 Q. When was the dark glass put on your face?
24 A. Since we left Bossasso heading to Djibouti.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 214 1 Q. And did those dark glasses remain on your face
2 the entire time you were in Djibouti?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And were your hands in handcuffs or otherwise
5 shackled the entire time that you were in
6 Djibouti?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. Okay. You
9 answered. You have to just wait, give me a
10 chance to object.
11 BY MR. SMITH:
12 Q. If I recall your testimony yesterday, you were
13 transported from Somalia to Djibouti, is that
14 right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you were in Djibouti for approximately one
17 day, if I recall your testimony from
18 yesterday.
19 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
20 answer.
21 THE WITNESS: It was not a whole day
22 because I left at night. It wasn't until the
23 next morning. It was in between nighttime.
24 BY MR. SMITH:
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 215 1 Q. Okay. Thank you.
2 Mr. Salim, during the period of time
3 that you were wearing these dark glasses, were
4 you able to see through the glasses to any
5 images of people or things?
6 A. I wasn't able to.
7 Q. Now, is it your testimony that there were
8 people taking photographs while you were being
9 raped by this person?
10 A. I don't remember saying that.
11 Q. Did you ever tell your lawyers that
12 photographs were being taken?
13 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. And --
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 BY MR. SMITH:
16 Q. You did?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. HOFFMAN: I move to strike and
19 instruct him not to answer any attorney/client
20 communications.
21 BY MR. SMITH:
22 Q. Do you have any memory that photographs were
23 taken?
24 A. Yes.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 216 1 Q. So your testimony is that photographs were
2 taken?
3 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
4 answer.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 BY MR. SMITH:
7 Q. Who took photographs?
8 A. I don't know the person.
9 Q. How do you know that photographs were taken?
10 A. I could see the flash.
11 Q. How many flashes did you see?
12 A. I can't remember.
13 Q. Was it more than one?
14 A. I don't recall.
15 Q. Turn, if you would, to page 20. Do you see in
16 footnote 1 on page 20, it says, quote:
17 "Though Mr. Salim identifies rectal injury as
18 occurring during his rendition, detention,
19 torture and other cruel, inhuman, and
20 degrading treatment as a result of his
21 inclusion in the program, and includes this
22 injury in his answers to interrogatories."
23 MR. SMITH: Should I stop there and
24 give you a chance to catch up, Margaret, or
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 217 1 should I keep going?
2 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Sure.
3 MR. SMITH: Go ahead.
4 (Translating.)
5 BY MR. SMITH:
6 Q. "He is unaware of any facts that would
7 establish the defendants' responsibility for
8 that injury and, accordingly, does not here
9 pursue damages for this injury."
10 A. I don't know. I just know that I was
11 persecuted. I don't know if they were
12 involved in it. My lawyers can answer that.
13 Through my lawyers investigation, they can
14 know.
15 Q. So are you aware, Mr. Salim, that you have
16 conceded that there are no facts that
17 establish the defendants' responsibility for
18 this rape that you contend?
19 A. I can't, myself, I can't know who was
20 responsible. My lawyers, through their
21 investigation, can answer that.
22 Q. I understand, but I'm asking the witness if he
23 is aware that his lawyers have conceded that
24 there are no facts to establish the
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 218 1 defendants' responsibility.
2 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
3 answer it.
4 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
5 BY MR. SMITH:
6 Q. Is today the first day you're hearing about
7 it?
8 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
9 answer.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 BY MR. SMITH:
12 Q. Okay. And is -- well, strike that.
13 Mr. Salim, I want to change subject
14 matters. After you left the salt pit, where
15 were you taken to?
16 A. Bagram.
17 Q. Who sent you to Bagram?
18 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Who sent?
19 MR. SMITH: You to Bagram.
20 A. I don't know him.
21 Q. How were you taken there?
22 A. Through a helicopter or airplane.
23 Q. Did you see the people who actually took you
24 on the helicopter or the airplane?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 219 1 A. I did not.
2 Q. Were you able to hear anything while you were
3 taken from the salt pit to Bagram?
4 A. I did not.
5 Q. Do you remember the conditions under which you
6 were transported?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you describe them for me?
9 A. Two people came into the room where I was and
10 they first took my pictures when I was naked.
11 After that, I was able -- I put on my clothes
12 and then some people came to the room, very
13 forceful, they handcuffed me and also my legs.
14 They covered my face. I had some speakers,
15 they put some speakers and glasses, then they
16 took me.
17 Q. Okay. And how did you know that you were
18 taken to Bagram?
19 A. I didn't know where I was going. So, because
20 up till living there, that's when I became
21 aware that I was in Bagram.
22 Q. Okay. Now, when you arrived at Bagram, where
23 were you taken?
24 A. It was like a room.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 220 1 Q. Can you describe the room?
2 A. So the room was like from here to here to the
3 wall. (Gesturing.)
4 Q. And would you say it was 3 meters by 3 meters?
5 A. I don't know anything about meters.
6 Q. Okay. How long were you kept in that room?
7 A. I'm not very sure, but I think it was between
8 one and a half week to two weeks.
9 Q. Okay. And while you were in the room for
10 those one and a half to two weeks, were you
11 permitted to go outside?
12 A. Maybe when I'm going to brush, and that's it.
13 Q. Was there light in the room?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, during that period of time that you were
16 in this room for one and a half to two weeks,
17 were you interrogated by anyone?
18 A. They would come and take me to another place
19 for when they were asking me questions.
20 Q. How many times did that happen while you were
21 in that room?
22 A. I don't recall.
23 Q. And were these Americans who would come and
24 take you?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 221 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you know if they were from the CIA?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Do you know if they were from the United
5 States Army?
6 A. The people that were taking me from the room
7 were from the Army, but the ones that were
8 asking questions, I didn't know where they
9 were from.
10 Q. Now, during the period of time that you were
11 asked these questions, can you describe for me
12 what occurred?
13 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
14 answer.
15 THE WITNESS: Just normal questions.
16 BY MR. SMITH:
17 Q. What kind of questions did they ask you?
18 A. The same questions that they asked me from the
19 beginning to the end.
20 Q. Have you told me about those questions?
21 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
22 answer.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes.
24 BY MR. SMITH:
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 222 1 Q. Now, during that period for the first one and
2 a half to two weeks, did anyone beat you?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did anyone subject you to any of the things
5 that you testified occurred at darkness?
6 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
7 answer.
8 THE WITNESS: No.
9 BY MR. SMITH:
10 Q. After you were taken out of that room a week
11 and a half or two weeks later, where did you
12 go next?
13 A. I was taken to another cell that was bigger.
14 Q. How much bigger was it?
15 A. Like this room.
16 Q. Okay. And were you the only one that was in
17 the cell?
18 A. Other people.
19 Q. How many other people?
20 A. It depends. There are times there would be 10
21 people, sometimes 15.
22 Q. Okay. Where did you sleep?
23 A. They gave us like things like blankets to
24 sleep on.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 223 1 Q. And how long were you kept in this cell?
2 A. That's where I was until I was released.
3 Q. Okay. Now, during the period of time that you
4 were in this cell, were you interrogated?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How frequently were you interrogated?
7 A. I can't estimate because there would -- it
8 would be -- there would -- it would take a
9 long time before they come to inter -- to ask
10 me questions and there are times that they
11 would do it more often.
12 Q. And you don't recall the frequency or
13 infrequency in which you were interrogated
14 while you were in this cell?
15 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
16 answer.
17 THE WITNESS: I can't recall.
18 MR. HOFFMAN: You have to give me a
19 chance to object.
20 BY MR. SMITH:
21 Q. Now, when you were interrogated, were you
22 taken to another room or did it occur in the
23 cell?
24 A. I was taken to another room.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 224 1 Q. And was that the same room you were taken to
2 when you were interrogated during that week
3 and a half to two weeks?
4 A. No, they kept on changing.
5 Q. Okay. Now, during the interrogations, during
6 that period that you were in the larger cell,
7 did anyone beat you?
8 A. Like soldiers or...
9 Q. Well, I don't want to -- the people that were
10 interrogating you. So let me ask the question
11 again. I'll withdraw that one.
12 During the period of time that you
13 were in the larger cell, you testified that
14 you were interrogated, correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And those interrogations would take place
17 after you were taken to another room for the
18 interrogation, correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And during those interrogations, did anyone
21 beat you or injure you in any way?
22 A. No.
23 Q. During the course of those interrogations, did
24 you sustain any injuries of any kind?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 225 1 A. No.
2 Q. And can you tell me what kinds of questions
3 were asked of you during those interrogations?
4 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but you can
5 answer.
6 THE WITNESS: The same questions.
7 BY MR. SMITH:
8 Q. You were released from Bagram in August of
9 2008, sir, is that correct?
10 A. I don't know the month, but I know it was in
11 2008.
12 Q. Now, during the period of time that you were
13 in Bagram, you learned to speak English?
14 A. It's not like I was in a class, I trained for
15 it, but just because the -- the guards that
16 were talking to us were talking to us, were
17 communicating in English, so that's how I
18 picked up.
19 Q. How did you learn about your release from
20 Bagram?
21 A. Rephrase your question.
22 Q. How did you learn about your release from
23 Bagram?
24 A. Before I was discharged, the Red Cross people
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 226 1 came.
2 Q. Had you ever been in contact with the Red
3 Cross people before that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When were you first in communication with
6 someone from the Red Cross?
7 A. I can't remember.
8 Q. How many times were you in communication with
9 someone from the Red Cross?
10 A. I think about two times.
11 Q. Okay. Do you remember what you talked about?
12 A. They wanted to -- me to write a letter that
13 was being taken home.
14 Q. To whom? A letter to whom?
15 A. My moms, my mothers.
16 Q. Now, Mr. Salim, am I to understand correctly
17 that the only -- strike that -- that the
18 damages you're seeking in this case concern
19 the treatment that you were subjected to at
20 darkness?
21 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but you can
22 answer.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes.
24 BY MR. SMITH:
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 227 1 Q. Have you ever heard the expression "big boss"?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Had you ever heard of Dr. Mitchell's name
4 before you met the lawyers from the ACLU?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Had you ever heard of Dr. Jessen's name before
7 you met the lawyers from the ACLU?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Mr. Salim, when did you first learn about the
10 possibility of bringing this lawsuit?
11 A. I can't remember the year.
12 Q. How did you learn?
13 A. Through a Tanzanian lawyer.
14 Q. What was the name of the Tanzanian lawyer?
15 A. M for Mary, K for kilo, O for orange, N for
16 Nancy, O for orange.
17 MR. SMITH: Could you spell that
18 again for me, Mary (sic)?
19 INTERPRETER ODANGA: M for Mary.
20 MR. SMITH: You can skip the Mary
21 stuff. Just M-K.
22 INTERPRETER ODANGA: M-K-O-N-O.
23 BY MR. SMITH:
24 Q. Did you know this lawyer M-K-O-N-O?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 228 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. How did you know him?
3 Was it a him or a her?
4 A. Him.
5 Q. It's a man. Okay. How did you know this
6 lawyer?
7 A. He's somebody that is known. He's known as a
8 lawyer.
9 Q. How did you know him?
10 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
11 answer.
12 THE WITNESS: He's just known as a
13 lawyer.
14 BY MR. SMITH:
15 Q. He's known as a lawyer where?
16 A. In Tanzania.
17 Q. And did he contact you or did you contact him?
18 A. I am the one who went to him.
19 Q. And why did you go to him?
20 A. I wanted to get to have my rights.
21 Q. And what action did he take on your behalf?
22 A. He got another lawyer.
23 Q. And what lawyer did he get?
24 A. Clara.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 229 1 Q. Who is Clara?
2 A. A she.
3 Q. No, who is she?
4 A. The lawyer.
5 Q. What is her full name?
6 A. I just know Clara.
7 Q. Okay. And where is she from?
8 A. England.
9 Q. And what action did Clara take on your behalf?
10 A. She helped look for other attorneys.
11 Q. Okay. And did she find another attorney for
12 you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Who did she find?
15 A. ACLU.
16 Q. When were you first in contact with the ACLU?
17 A. I don't remember the date.
18 Q. Okay. You filed this lawsuit in October of
19 2015. Are you aware of that?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You don't know when the lawsuit was filed?
22 A. No.
23 Q. How many times had you met with
24 representatives of the ACLU before October
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 230 1 2015?
2 A. I can't remember how many times.
3 Q. Did you ever meet with any representatives
4 from the ACLU before October 2015?
5 A. I don't know the year, but I know I -- I met
6 them, but I don't know the year.
7 Q. Do you know if that meeting took place before
8 or after the lawsuit was filed?
9 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
10 answer.
11 THE WITNESS: I can't recall.
12 BY MR. SMITH:
13 Q. Where did the meeting take place?
14 A. Dubai.
15 MR. HOFFMAN: Object. Just give me
16 a chance.
17 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Okay.
18 MR. HOFFMAN: I'm going to object to
19 the prior question, but he can answer, so
20 that's fine.
21 BY MR. SMITH:
22 Q. Who was present at this meeting?
23 A. Steven.
24 Q. Anyone else?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 231 1 A. Clara.
2 Q. Anyone else?
3 A. I don't remember.
4 Q. Was there an interpreter present?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Does Clara speak Swahili?
7 A. No.
8 Q. When you met with Clara and Steven in Dubai,
9 did everyone speak English at the meeting?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How long did you meet for?
12 A. I can't remember. It was just a few days.
13 Q. Now, during the meeting -- are you saying the
14 meeting went on for several days?
15 A. Something like that.
16 Q. Now, over the course of two days, did you have
17 any difficulty understanding them?
18 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
19 answer.
20 THE WITNESS: Yes.
21 BY MR. SMITH:
22 Q. Who paid for you to go to Dubai?
23 A. I remember it was Clara.
24 Q. Can you place the witness -- before the
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 232 1 witness Exhibit No. 8.
2 Mr. Salim, did you authorize the
3 American Civil Liberties Union to file this
4 document on your behalf?
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. Did you ever review this document at any time
7 prior to when I showed it to you yesterday,
8 this document being Exhibit 8?
9 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
10 answer.
11 THE WITNESS: No.
12 BY MR. SMITH:
13 Q. Why don't we take a -- well, let me just cover
14 one other subject and we'll take a break.
15 Mr. Salim, have you ever heard of
16 the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence
17 report that was prepared in connection with
18 matters that are embodied in your complaint?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When did you hear about it?
21 A. I don't remember the date.
22 Q. Let me show you what we're going to mark in
23 the case as Exhibit No. 15.
24
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 233 1 (Whereupon, Salim Exhibit No. 15 was
2 marked for identification.)
3 Q. Have you seen Exhibit 15 before today?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you know if Exhibit No. 15 is the Senate
6 Select Committee on Intelligence report?
7 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
8 answer.
9 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
10 BY MR. SMITH:
11 Q. No one has ever shown this document to you in
12 any language, English or Swahili?
13 A. I don't remember.
14 Q. Were you ever interviewed by anyone following
15 your release from Bagram about the
16 circumstances of your captivity?
17 A. No.
18 MR. HOFFMAN: Do you think a break
19 would be okay right now?
20 MR. SMITH: Sure.
21 VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 10:04.
22 We're off the record.
23 (Brief pause.)
24 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 234 1 record. The time is 10:24.
2 BY MR. SMITH:
3 Q. Mr. Salim, I understand from your lawyers that
4 there's something you'd like to say for the
5 record.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What would you like to say?
8 A. You asked me if I have ever interviewed ever
9 since I left. (Translating.) You said -- you
10 asked me if anybody interviewed me after this
11 report came out?
12 Q. What -- Mr. Salim, whatever you'd like to say
13 for the record, I'm giving you an opportunity
14 to say it. What would you like to say, sir?
15 MR. HOFFMAN: Could you have the
16 last question that you asked reread? I think
17 he asked for that before. And that may be the
18 easiest way to get at this.
19 MR. SMITH: Why don't we read back
20 the question for the witness.
21 (Whereupon, the record was read back
22 by the court reporter as follows:
23 "QUESTION: Were you ever
24 interviewed by anyone following your
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 235 1 release from Bagram about the
2 circumstances of your captivity?
3 "ANSWER: No.")
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, I've ever been
5 interviewed, based on...
6 COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, yes?
7 INTERPRETER ODANGA: The answer is
8 yes.
9 BY MR. SMITH:
10 Q. Who interviewed you?
11 A. I remember the name James.
12 Q. Spell it, please.
13 A. J-A-M-E-S.
14 Q. Oh, James. Do you remember James's last name?
15 A. No.
16 Q. And just so I'm not assuming anything, was
17 James this person's first name?
18 A. I just know a James from New York Times.
19 Q. Now, did you forget about this interview when
20 you originally answered my question "no"?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And who reminded you about this interview?
23 A. Myself.
24 Q. Oh. So your lawyers didn't remind you of this
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 236 1 interview during the last break?
2 A. They reminded me.
3 Q. They reminded you. Okay.
4 When did this interview take place?
5 A. In Dubai.
6 Q. But when did it take place?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. Who was present for the interview?
9 A. My lawyer.
10 Q. Which lawyer?
11 A. Steven.
12 Q. Did this interview take place in Dubai during
13 the same trip in which you met Steven and
14 Clara?
15 A. I don't remember.
16 Q. How many times have you been to Dubai in
17 connection with this case?
18 A. I don't remember.
19 Q. Do you know if following the interview the
20 New York Times had a report? Let me strike
21 that. Start all over again.
22 Do you know if following this
23 interview with this person named James that an
24 article appeared in the New York Times?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 237 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you see the article?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Who showed you the article?
5 A. My lawyer.
6 Q. Was the article shown to you in English or in
7 Swahili?
8 A. English.
9 Q. And did you read the article in English?
10 A. I did not read it.
11 Q. Let me hand to you what we're going to mark as
12 Exhibit No. 18.
13 (Whereupon, Salim Exhibit No. 18 was
14 marked for identification.)
15 Q. Do you recognize what's been marked as Exhibit
16 No. 18 as an article that appeared in the
17 New York Times on October 12th, 2016, entitled
18 "After Torture, Ex-Detainee Still Captive of
19 'The Darkness'"?
20 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but he can
21 answer.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 BY MR. SMITH:
24 Q. And the James that you made reference to from
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 238 1 the New York Times, was it James Risen?
2 A. I only know James. I don't know Risen.
3 Q. And do you recall now, looking at Exhibit
4 No. 18, if you met with James and your lawyer,
5 Mr. Steven Watt, in Dubai in October of 2016?
6 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
7 answer.
8 THE WITNESS: I don't remember the
9 year, but we were in Dubai.
10 BY MR. SMITH:
11 Q. So you can't tell me if you met with James and
12 Mr. Watt last October, is that your testimony?
13 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
14 answer.
15 THE WITNESS: I met them, but I
16 don't know the man.
17 BY MR. SMITH:
18 Q. You met them last year?
19 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
20 answer.
21 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
22 BY MR. SMITH:
23 Q. So you don't know the month or the year in
24 which you met with James from the New York
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 239 1 Times in Dubai, is that your testimony?
2 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection.
3 (Translating.)
4 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection.
5 (Translating.)
6 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but you can
7 answer.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 BY MR. SMITH:
10 Q. Now, during the -- strike that.
11 Who set this meeting up with James
12 from the New York Times?
13 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but you can
14 answer.
15 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
16 BY MR. SMITH:
17 Q. Who told you about it?
18 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but you can
19 answer.
20 THE WITNESS: About what?
21 BY MR. SMITH:
22 Q. About the meeting.
23 A. Repeat your question.
24 Q. Who told you about the meeting with James in
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 240 1 Dubai?
2 A. My lawyer.
3 Q. And who paid for you to come to Dubai to be
4 interviewed by James?
5 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but you can
6 answer.
7 THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
8 BY MR. SMITH:
9 Q. You didn't pay for it, did you?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Now, during the course of this interview, do
12 you recall if you were asked questions about
13 my clients, Drs. Mitchell and Jessen?
14 A. I don't remember.
15 Q. Turn, if you would, to the last page of
16 Exhibit No. 18. Do you see where it says on
17 the top of the page, first paragraph, quote:
18 "He is now a plaintiff in a lawsuit against
19 two CIA contractors who helped devise and run
20 the brutal interrogation program of which he
21 was a part."
22 Do you see that, sir?
23 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, I'll object to
24 that, it's not a quote.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 241 1 MR. SMITH: No. I'm quoting from
2 the document.
3 MR. HOFFMAN: Oh. Well, but the way
4 you asked it, it made it sound like that was a
5 quote.
6 MR. SMITH: Maybe it sounded that
7 way to you, but that's not what I said. I
8 said "do you see where it says, quote."
9 THE WITNESS: I don't remember
10 saying it.
11 BY MR. SMITH:
12 Q. So that was going to be my next question. Did
13 you tell Mr. Risen, Mr. James Risen, that you
14 were "a plaintiff in a lawsuit against two CIA
15 contractors who helped devise and run the
16 brutal interrogation program" for which you
17 were a part, did you say that to him?
18 A. I don't remember.
19 Q. Who were the two CIA contractors that are
20 referenced there, do you know?
21 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but you can
22 answer.
23 THE WITNESS: I don't know them.
24 BY MR. SMITH:
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 242 1 Q. Do you have any factual basis for the
2 proposition that two CIA contractors helped
3 devise and run the interrogation program that
4 you were subjected to?
5 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
6 answer.
7 THE WITNESS: No.
8 BY MR. SMITH:
9 Q. Do you know if it was your lawyers who set up
10 this interview with you with Mr. Risen, James
11 Risen?
12 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
13 answer.
14 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
15 BY MR. SMITH:
16 Q. Do you know if the purpose of this interview
17 was to generate publicity about the lawsuit
18 that had been filed against my clients?
19 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
20 answer.
21 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
22 BY MR. SMITH:
23 Q. Did you ever speak to James again after the
24 meeting in Dubai?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 243 1 A. No. No.
2 Q. Did you ever speak to anyone from the New York
3 Times other than or in addition to James?
4 A. None.
5 Q. So I want to go back, now, to Exhibit No. 15,
6 sir. Let me ask you, have you ever heard the
7 name Abu Talha al-Pakistani?
8 A. Never.
9 Q. Did you ever use that name as an alias?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Let me direct your attention to page 374 of
12 Exhibit No. 15.
13 Mr. Salim, do you know a man named
14 Hassan Ghul?
15 A. I don't know him.
16 Q. Did you ever meet a person named Hassan Ghul?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you know an individual who uses the
19 initials "KSM"?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you ever hear the name Khaled Sheikh
22 Mohamed?
23 A. I've never heard.
24 Q. Do you know an individual by name of Ammar
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 244 1 al-Baluchi? Al, B-A-L-U-C-H-I.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do you know an individual by the name of Hamza
4 Rabi? R-A-B-I.
5 A. No.
6 Q. Sir, I want you to direct -- I want to direct
7 your attention to footnote No. 2110 on page
8 374 of Exhibit No. 15.
9 Do you see where it says "Hassan
10 Ghul stated that he knew Talha al-Pakistani,
11 a/k/a Suleiman"? Do you see that?
12 A. I can see here.
13 Q. Okay. Let me ask you again, did you ever use
14 the alias Talha al-Pakistani?
15 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
16 answer.
17 THE WITNESS: I've never.
18 BY MR. SMITH:
19 Q. Reading on, it says -- strike that.
20 Let me ask you, Mr. Salim, is there
21 something you find humorous about that?
22 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. Instruct
23 you not to answer. It's argumentative.
24 MR. SMITH: No, it's not. I'm just
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 245 1 curious to know what the witness would find
2 humorous in that. He was just laughing on the
3 record.
4 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
5 answer.
6 THE WITNESS: Because it's just
7 shocking to me.
8 BY MR. SMITH:
9 Q. Shocking. Mr. Salim, do you understand that
10 this document --
11 A. (Interrupting in Swahili.)
12 Q. Mr. Salim, do you understand this document,
13 Exhibit 15, is a document that your lawyers
14 are relying upon, in part, in connection with
15 this lawsuit?
16 A. No.
17 Q. And what you're saying is that the suggestion
18 in this report that you were known, in fact it
19 is you, as an alias "Talha al-Pakistani" is
20 just false, is that right?
21 MR. HOFFMAN: And I'll object
22 that -- object, but he can answer.
23 THE WITNESS: Not true.
24 BY MR. SMITH:
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 246 1 Q. Okay. Just go back to 2110 for a second,
2 where it says Ghul -- second sentence: "Ghul
3 last saw Talha in Shkai around
4 October/November 2003."
5 Let me stop right there. Do you see
6 that?
7 A. (Translating.)
8 Q. Do you see it?
9 A. I see it.
10 Q. Where is Shkai?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Have you ever been there?
13 A. I don't know anybody there. I've never been
14 there.
15 Q. Okay. Were you ever at the residence of Hamza
16 Rabi? R-A-B-I.
17 A. I don't know him.
18 (Whereupon, Salim Exhibit No. 16 was
19 marked for identification.)
20 Q. Mr. Salim, I'm going to hand you what we've
21 marked as Exhibit No. 16 for the record.
22 Have you ever seen this document
23 before today?
24 A. No.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 247 1 Q. I want to -- do you see your name appears in
2 the middle of the page?
3 A. I see.
4 Q. Are you seeking to recover damages for pain
5 related to the digits on your right hand with
6 resulting contractures?
7 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
8 answer.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 BY MR. SMITH:
11 Q. And your right hand, I think you told us
12 yesterday, was broken by the Somalis?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you received treatment for your hand while
15 you were in captivity by the United States, is
16 that right?
17 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
18 answer.
19 THE WITNESS: There was no
20 treatment. In fact, it was even -- they even
21 made it more painful.
22 BY MR. SMITH:
23 Q. And how did the Americans make it more
24 painful?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 248 1 A. While I was at "The Darkness," when they were
2 beating me, when they were hanging me, it was
3 just making these pains more painful.
4 Q. Now, do you presently experience pain in your
5 hands, presently?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Are you presently receiving any medical
8 treatment?
9 A. I just use traditional herbs at home.
10 Q. Okay. When is the last time you received
11 treatment for your hand injuries on your right
12 hand?
13 A. I never received any treatment.
14 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Sondra
15 Crosby?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Who is Sondra Crosby?
18 A. A doctor.
19 Q. What kind of doctor?
20 A. I don't know. I just know her as a doctor.
21 Q. How did you come to know her?
22 A. She came with Clara.
23 Q. Came where with Clara?
24 A. In Zanzibar.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 249 1 Q. When did you meet with Clara and Sondra Crosby
2 in Zanzibar?
3 A. I don't remember.
4 Q. Who else was present?
5 A. I don't remember who. I remember they came
6 with the lawyer. I have forgotten.
7 Q. And your testimony is that you never received
8 any medical treatment for the injuries to your
9 right hand, is that correct?
10 A. Let me tell you something, when I was at "The
11 Darkness," when my fingers were hurting so
12 bad, they wrapped something hard around my
13 fingers.
14 When they were beating me, there was
15 some water that was coming out of it and then
16 my hands were hurting so bad. When I told
17 them to treat me, they didn't do it.
18 I went on strike and so they came
19 and they removed the hard thing and, by then,
20 my hand was stinking and there was a cut from
21 here going down. (Gesturing.)
22 So they brought some -- a bowl with
23 water and they told me to put my hand -- to
24 put my hand in it. So that is what made the
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 250 1 wound close and so if there's any treatment
2 that I can say, it was that.
3 Q. Okay. Well, when you met with Sondra Crosby,
4 what did you talk about?
5 A. I don't remember.
6 Q. How many times did you meet with Sondra
7 Crosby?
8 A. I think twice.
9 Q. So one time in Zanzibar?
10 A. And one time in Dar es Salaam. Dar es Salaam.
11 Q. Oh, Dar es Salaam.
12 When did you meet with her in
13 Dar es Salaam?
14 A. I don't remember.
15 Q. How long did you meet with her in Zanzibar?
16 A. Like how many days?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. I don't remember.
19 Q. Same question with respect to Dar es Salaam.
20 A. About four days.
21 Q. Who else was present during that meeting?
22 A. Nobody else.
23 Q. Do you remember what you talked about?
24 A. I remember she was just asking me how I was
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 251 1 doing.
2 Q. Do you remember anything else you talked
3 about?
4 A. I don't remember.
5 (Whereupon, Salim Exhibit No. 2 was
6 marked for identification.)
7 Q. I'm going to hand to you what's been marked
8 for identification purposes as Exhibit No. 2.
9 Have you ever seen this document
10 before today?
11 A. No.
12 Q. For the record, I'll identify it as a "Report
13 of Dr. Sondra Crosby, MD." The report does
14 not have a date.
15 You've never seen it before?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you have any memory of meeting with
18 Dr. Crosby and Dr. Joan Nyanyuki,
19 N-Y-A-N-Y-U-K-I, on May 16 and 17, 2010?
20 A. I don't remember.
21 Q. Do you have any memory of meeting with
22 Dr. Crosby on October 7 through 10 of 2016?
23 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
24 answer.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 252 1 THE WITNESS: I remember meeting
2 him, but I don't remember the date.
3 BY MR. SMITH:
4 Q. Okay. Meeting him or her?
5 INTERPRETER ODANGA: That is my --
6 MR. SMITH: Okay.
7 INTERPRETER ODANGA: -- mistake.
8 MR. SMITH: Meeting her. Okay.
9 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Right. Yeah.
10 BY MR. SMITH:
11 Q. Turn, if you would, to page 8 of Exhibit
12 No. 2. Do you see toward the top of the page,
13 it says: "Afghanistan: "The Darkness."
14 Do you see that?
15 A. I see.
16 Q. Do you see in paragraph 41, it says, quote:
17 "Mr. Salim was blindfolded and taken to see a
18 doctor"?
19 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Which
20 paragraph?
21 MR. SMITH: Forty-one.
22 INTERPRETER ODANGA: Oh, okay.
23 (Translating.)
24 THE WITNESS: Where?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 253 1 BY MR. SMITH:
2 Q. Page 41 -- or paragraph 41 on page 8, do you
3 see where it says "Mr. Salim was blindfolded
4 and taken to see a doctor"?
5 A. I see, but in which jail?
6 Q. Well, I don't know. It says "Afghanistan:
7 "The Darkness" in her report.
8 MR. HOFFMAN: The only question was
9 "did you see it." That's all, right now.
10 THE WITNESS: Sorry.
11 MR. HOFFMAN: The only question that
12 he was asked is did he see it, then he's going
13 to ask more questions.
14 THE WITNESS: I see it.
15 BY MR. SMITH:
16 Q. Did you tell Dr. Crosby that while you were
17 being held in captivity at "The Darkness" that
18 you were taken to see a doctor?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Were you taken to see a doctor?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you tell Dr. Crosby that when you saw that
23 doctor, that the doctor x-rayed your fingers?
24 A. It wasn't like a big x-ray machine, it was
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 254 1 something like a laptop that I put my finger
2 on.
3 Q. Did you understand it to be an x-ray?
4 A. They told me.
5 Q. So did you tell Dr. Crosby that when you were
6 taken to see this doctor that this doctor at
7 the facility that you refer to as "The
8 Darkness" did an x-ray on your hand?
9 A. Something like that.
10 Q. And did you tell Dr. Crosby that the doctor
11 had told you, following the x-ray, that your
12 fingers were fractured?
13 A. I remember, yes.
14 Q. And did you tell -- in fact, the doctor did
15 tell you that your fingers were fractured,
16 isn't that right?
17 A. Something like that, I remember.
18 Q. And the doctor then placed your hand in a
19 cast, or your fingers, isn't that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you told Dr. Crosby that, right, when she
22 interviewed you, right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And this was during the same period of time
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 255 1 that you were being given medicine for -- to
2 help deal with the pain in your hand, correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, am I to understand, sir, that after you
5 saw this doctor, whoever these people were at
6 the facility continued to subject you to
7 beatings and shackles and the things that you
8 described yesterday?
9 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but he can
10 answer.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes.
12 BY MR. SMITH:
13 Q. Did the doctor have anything to do with the
14 decision to continue -- let me finish the
15 question. Let me strike that and start all
16 over again.
17 Mr. Salim, do you know if the doctor
18 was in any way involved in the decision to
19 expose you to those conditions or put you
20 through those conditions?
21 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection and you can
22 answer.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes.
24 BY MR. SMITH:
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 256 1 Q. Tell me what factual information you have that
2 the doctor was involved.
3 A. After the x-ray and after wrapping the thing
4 on my hand, that's when the beatings started.
5 Q. Okay. But how do you know that the doctor had
6 anything to do with the decision to beat you
7 or do any of the other things that happened to
8 you?
9 A. After examining me and like examining my body,
10 the doctor said "take him."
11 Q. Okay. Are you saying that the doctor gave
12 orders to beat you and engage in the other
13 activities that you were subjected to?
14 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
15 answer.
16 THE WITNESS: He said "take him."
17 He didn't say they do it.
18 BY MR. SMITH:
19 Q. Okay. Take him back to your cell, is that
20 what he said?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Okay. Let's go back to Exhibit No. 16. Do
23 you see the second item under your name
24 "musculoskeletal pain of the arms, shoulders
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 257 1 and upper back," do you see that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Are you presently experiencing any pain in
4 your arms, shoulders or upper back?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How frequently?
7 A. All the time.
8 Q. In your arms, shoulders and upper back?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Are you presently experiencing pain as we
11 speak?
12 A. I have.
13 Q. Can you -- can you describe for me the pain
14 that you're experiencing in your arms?
15 A. It's bad pain.
16 Q. Can you show me where in your arms it hurts
17 and describe the pain?
18 A. On the back, here. (Gesturing.)
19 Q. In your back. Okay.
20 Is there pain in your arms,
21 Mr. Salim?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Are you presently experiencing pain in your
24 jaw?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 258 1 A. No. Right now, no, but I do experience it
2 sometimes.
3 Q. When was the last time you experienced pain in
4 your jaw?
5 A. I can't remember, but anytime I laugh, I get
6 the pain, or if I chew something, the pain
7 comes.
8 Q. Are you presently experiencing any pain in
9 your knees?
10 A. Right now?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. Not now.
13 Q. When is the last time you experienced pain in
14 your knees?
15 A. I can't remember.
16 Q. Do you -- for the pain that you describe in
17 your back, are you receiving any medical
18 treatment?
19 A. Herbal medication, like the traditional herbs.
20 Q. What are herbs?
21 MR. HOFFMAN: Herbs.
22 MR. SMITH: Oh, herbs.
23 MR. HOFFMAN: Herbs.
24 MR. SMITH: Okay.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 259 1 BY MR. SMITH:
2 Q. What kind of herbal medication are you taking
3 for your back?
4 A. You can't know, they are just some leaves,
5 traditional leaves that she -- I put on my
6 back.
7 Q. Are you presently having any issues with your
8 nose or sinuses?
9 A. I have problem with my nose.
10 Q. I'm sorry?
11 A. I have problem with my nose.
12 Q. Are you getting any medical treatment for your
13 nose?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Are you experiencing any difficulties with
16 your sinuses?
17 A. Mostly, when my head is hurting, then I get
18 pain in my nose.
19 Q. Okay. How frequently do you get the pain in
20 your nose?
21 A. Not so frequent.
22 Q. When is the last time you had it?
23 A. I can't remember.
24 Q. And you mentioned headaches. Do you -- are
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 260 1 you experiencing problems with headaches?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How frequently are you experiencing this
4 problem?
5 A. Many times.
6 Q. Can you be more specific about the frequency
7 of these headaches?
8 A. I can't tell you the frequency, but I feel
9 pain. Like last night, I had headache. This
10 morning, I had headache. But sometimes it
11 hurts a lot, sometimes it doesn't.
12 Q. Do you have a headache now?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And do you know what tends to bring on these
15 headaches?
16 A. Sometimes it just comes by itself.
17 Q. Okay. Are you getting any medical treatment
18 for the headaches?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Are you taking anything for the headaches, any
21 medications?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Last night, when you had a headache, did you
24 take some aspirin?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 261 1 A. No.
2 Q. Is there a reason why you don't take any
3 aspirin?
4 A. I just don't want, myself.
5 Q. You mentioned yesterday that you experience
6 episodes of dizziness. Do you recall that,
7 Mr. Salim?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How frequently are you experiencing these
10 episodes of dizziness?
11 A. Many times.
12 Q. Is it -- does it occur on a daily basis?
13 A. Mostly, if I bend a lot --
14 Q. Sorry, if I?
15 A. I bend --
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. -- a lot, when I try to stand up, I get
18 dizziness. Like when I'm fishing, it forces
19 me to bend. And now, when I want to stand up,
20 I have to hold like this. (Gesturing.)
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. Before I stand.
23 Q. Are you getting any medical treatment for this
24 condition?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 262 1 A. No.
2 Q. Are you taking any medication?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Is there a reason why you don't see a doctor
5 about these dizzy episodes?
6 A. There's no doctor. If you go to the doctor,
7 they just give you Panadol. Panadol is like
8 Tylenol.
9 Q. Okay.
10 MR. HOFFMAN: Have you reached a
11 stopping point or...
12 MR. SMITH: You mean you want to
13 take a break?
14 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, I mean, I don't
15 want to interrupt if you're in the middle of
16 something.
17 MR. SMITH: We can take a break.
18 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay.
19 VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 11:20.
20 We're off the record.
21 (Brief pause.)
22 VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record.
23 The time is 11:36.
24 BY MR. SMITH:
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 263 1 Q. Mr. Salim, are you seeking, as part of your
2 damages in this case, to recover for symptoms
3 relating to weakness and fatigue?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Are you presently experiencing symptoms
6 relating to weakness and fatigue?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you describe for me those symptoms?
9 A. I just feel like I'm so tired and the whole
10 body is painful.
11 Q. And are you getting any medical treatment for
12 this condition?
13 A. Traditional herbs.
14 Q. Can you tell me what you mean by that?
15 A. Traditional medicine.
16 Q. What kind of medicine?
17 A. Just like herbs.
18 Q. Herbs?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. Okay. Have you sought any medical advice
21 related to this condition?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Mr. Salim, I want to ask you about your eating
24 habits. Do you eat regular meals every day?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 264 1 A. I eat every day.
2 Q. Okay. For example, today, did you have any
3 meals?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. And can you describe for me what your
6 -- how many meals a day you have?
7 A. Most of the time, twice.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. A day.
10 Q. And is that breakfast and dinner?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. May I ask you, what did you have for breakfast
13 today?
14 A. Fine.
15 Q. What did you have?
16 A. Banana.
17 Q. One banana?
18 A. They brought bananas that were cut in pieces,
19 so I don't know whether they were -- the
20 number.
21 Q. Okay. And is that, typically, what you have
22 for breakfast?
23 A. Ever since I came here, I've been having that.
24 Q. Okay. How about back home?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 265 1 A. I eat fish and soup in the morning.
2 Q. And how about for dinner?
3 A. It depends. Sometimes fish and bread or fish
4 with something else.
5 Q. Okay. And do you drink water?
6 A. Sometimes I drink, sometimes just a little.
7 Q. And what other types of beverages do you drink
8 in addition to water?
9 A. I don't really drink that much. Sometimes I
10 drink juice, but just sometimes.
11 Q. Mr. Suleiman, have you ever asked your -- a
12 doctor whether or not some of these
13 conditions, like dizziness and headaches and
14 fatigue, were related to your diet?
15 A. Which doctor?
16 Q. Any doctor.
17 A. I've never.
18 Q. You never asked?
19 A. I don't remember.
20 Q. Do you know what a flashback is?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What is a flashback?
23 A. Like thinking of something that happened
24 before.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 266 1 Q. Okay. Do you experience flashbacks?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And what do you flash back to?
4 A. It depends.
5 Q. What does it depend upon?
6 A. Depends with what I'm -- what I'm thinking at
7 that time.
8 Q. But do you tend to flash back to one
9 particular thing or many things?
10 A. Most of the time, one thing.
11 Q. Okay. And what is that thing?
12 A. Tortured, being tortured.
13 Q. So what happened to you at darkness?
14 A. Most of the time, yes.
15 Q. And what -- if it's not a flashback to
16 darkness, what is the flashback to?
17 A. Bagram and salt pit.
18 Q. Okay. When is the last time you had a
19 flashback to Bagram?
20 A. Today.
21 Q. Can you describe for me what happened?
22 A. I -- (translating.) I was seeing myself like
23 I'm in a cell in Bagram. I was seeing myself
24 like I was in a cell in Bagram.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 267 1 Q. And how long did that flashback last?
2 A. It comes and goes. It comes and goes.
3 Q. How many times did it happen today?
4 A. One or two times.
5 Q. How long did the flashback last?
6 A. I don't know like how long it took.
7 Q. And do you experience any physical symptoms
8 during this flashback?
9 A. It depends with what I'm remembering or
10 thinking.
11 Q. Okay. And when is the last time you had a
12 flashback to darkness?
13 A. Right now.
14 Q. And are the flashbacks to darkness different
15 than the flashbacks to Bagram or salt pit?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Mr. Salim, you were taken out of darkness 13
18 years ago. Does that sound right?
19 A. I don't know how to count those years.
20 Q. Okay. So I think you were taken into
21 captivity in 2003. I think that's what you
22 told me yesterday.
23 Do you remember that?
24 A. Yes.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 268 1 Q. And you were kept in that darkness, as you
2 refer to it, for approximately two months?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And that was some 13 or 14 years ago, right?
5 A. I don't know about the years.
6 Q. Now, these flashbacks, how long have you been
7 experiencing them?
8 A. I have answered you that it depends with what
9 I'm thinking.
10 Q. Okay. Have you been experiencing flashbacks
11 for the last 13 or 14 years?
12 A. Ever since I was in jail, I get those
13 flashbacks.
14 Q. Okay. And has the frequency of the flashbacks
15 increased or decreased with the passage of
16 time?
17 A. It depends.
18 Q. What does it depend upon?
19 A. If I am working, like I'm doing something, I
20 don't get flashback that much as compared to
21 when I'm not doing anything.
22 Q. Okay. And are you receiving any medical
23 treatment for these flashbacks?
24 A. No.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 269 1 Q. Are you taking any medication for the
2 flashbacks?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Is there a reason why you're not getting
5 medical treatment for the flashbacks?
6 A. I see like it's going to make me crazy so
7 there's no need of taking me -- taking
8 medication, like it's going to have some
9 mental effect.
10 Q. The medication will?
11 A. That's what I'm thinking.
12 Q. Well, do you think if you go see a doctor that
13 you may get better?
14 A. There's no doctor in Zanzibar that can tell me
15 that.
16 Q. Did you ever try to find a doctor in Zanzibar
17 to treat you?
18 A. No doctor.
19 Q. Did you try -- did you try to find a doctor in
20 Zanzibar to treat you?
21 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. He can
22 answer.
23 THE WITNESS: None.
24 BY MR. SMITH:
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 270 1 Q. Does that mean he looked and he couldn't find
2 one or does that mean he never looked?
3 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. He can
4 answer.
5 THE WITNESS: I never looked.
6 BY MR. SMITH:
7 Q. Why didn't you look?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Do you contend that you suffer a brain injury
10 as a result of what happened to you in
11 captivity?
12 MR. HOFFMAN: Object, but he can
13 answer.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 BY MR. SMITH:
16 Q. What is the brain injury?
17 A. A lot of headaches.
18 Q. Who diagnosed, if anyone, that you have a
19 brain injury?
20 A. Nobody.
21 Q. But you think these headaches that you're
22 experiencing are related to some sort of
23 injury to your brain?
24 A. Yes.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 271 1 Q. But a doctor has never told you that?
2 A. No.
3 Q. And you never saw a doctor to seek treatment
4 for these headaches, correct?
5 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. You can
6 answer.
7 THE WITNESS: No.
8 BY MR. SMITH:
9 Q. Are you suffering, presently, from a condition
10 related to ringing in your ears?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you describe for me that condition?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Please do.
15 A. At times, I feel noise, like something just --
16 a sound like (making inaudible noise) and then
17 sometimes it's like something just going like
18 pop, pop, pop, pop, pop in my ear.
19 Q. Okay. How frequently do you experience that
20 condition?
21 A. The one that gives me the sounds of pop, pop,
22 pop doesn't happen more frequently, but the
23 sound, many times.
24 Q. Many times a day?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 272 1 A. I'm not very sure, but I can say like in a
2 day, maybe one time.
3 Q. Are you seeking any treatment for this
4 condition?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Have you seen a doctor?
7 A. For that condition, no.
8 Q. Are you taking any medication?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Has a doctor ever diagnosed what the cause is
11 of the ringing in the ears?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you know what post-traumatic stress
14 disorder is?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Has a doctor ever advised you that you are
17 suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder?
18 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but he can
19 answer.
20 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
21 BY MR. SMITH:
22 Q. Have you ever seen a doctor for treatment for
23 symptoms related to post-traumatic stress
24 disorder?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 273 1 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but he can
2 answer.
3 THE WITNESS: I don't know what that
4 is.
5 BY MR. SMITH:
6 Q. Are you presently experiencing any feelings of
7 isolation?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you describe them?
10 A. I don't feel like being with people, I like
11 being with myself, and I don't like walking
12 around to see people.
13 Q. And when did you start experiencing that
14 feeling?
15 A. Ever since I came from jail.
16 Q. And prior to the time that you were taken into
17 captivity, arrested in 2003, I guess, were you
18 experiencing that feeling?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Are you seeking any medical advice or
21 treatment related to this condition?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you know, are you familiar with the concept
24 of depression?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 274 1 A. No.
2 Q. Have you ever heard of the medical condition
3 depression?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Are you familiar with the concept of
6 hopelessness?
7 A. How?
8 Q. Well, are you presently experiencing feelings
9 of hopelessness?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you describe them for the record?
12 A. I feel like I'm so weak and I can't do
13 anything.
14 Q. Are you seeking any treatment for that
15 condition?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Are you presently experiencing any difficulty
18 with your sleeping habits?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you describe it?
21 A. Sometimes I can go to bed and I sleep about
22 two or three hours, then I wake up and I don't
23 go back to sleep.
24 Q. How frequently does that occur?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 275 1 A. It's almost every day.
2 Q. Are you saying that you only sleep two to
3 three hours a day?
4 A. Most of the time, but when I go fishing, when
5 I come back, I sleep well.
6 Q. Have you -- have you attempted to get any
7 medical treatment for this sleeping disorder?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Why not?
10 A. I don't know why.
11 Q. Mr. Salim, when is the last time you went to a
12 doctor for a checkup, a physical checkup?
13 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but he can
14 answer.
15 THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
16 BY MR. SMITH:
17 Q. When is the last time you went to a doctor for
18 treatment of any kind?
19 A. I don't remember, but I went for my ears.
20 Q. When was that?
21 A. I don't remember. It was -- my eyes -- I had
22 eyes problem and I went for the ears, also,
23 and it was also for my legs.
24 Q. And you don't remember when?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 276 1 A. I don't remember.
2 Q. Do you remember the name of the doctor?
3 A. I don't.
4 Q. Was it five or more years ago that you went
5 and saw this doctor?
6 A. Not that much, but long.
7 Q. Where was the doctor located?
8 A. In Zanzibar.
9 Q. What was the doctor's name?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. And did the doctor give you any medical
12 advice?
13 A. For which condition?
14 Q. For any and all of the conditions.
15 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. He can
16 answer.
17 THE WITNESS: For the ears, they
18 gave me medication.
19 BY MR. SMITH:
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. For my eyes, they gave me glasses and I was
22 given medication, too. For my knees, they did
23 some injection and they took out fluid.
24 Q. Anything else?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 277 1 A. I don't remember.
2 Q. Do you remember the medication you were given
3 for your ears?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you take the medication?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. For how long did you take the medication?
8 A. I don't remember for how long, but I never
9 finished the dose.
10 Q. And do you know why you didn't finish the
11 dose?
12 A. When I started feeling better, I left it.
13 Q. So the medication was helping your ear
14 condition?
15 A. I didn't see -- it was pointless for me so I
16 just decided to quit.
17 Q. Well, Mr. Salim, I thought you said that the
18 medication was helping the condition with your
19 ears.
20 A. It's not that the pain went away, but it
21 reduced.
22 Q. Okay. So why didn't you keep taking the
23 medication if the pain was reduced?
24 A. I just don't want it.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 278 1 Q. And were you given medication with your -- for
2 your eye condition?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you take that medication?
5 A. Yeah, it was like an ointment and I used it.
6 Q. Did you continue to use it?
7 A. I used a little -- a little of it.
8 Q. Okay. Did you use up the whole prescription?
9 A. I don't remember.
10 Q. Are you taking that medication presently?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Why did you stop taking it?
13 A. I just don't want it.
14 Q. Were you given medication for your knees?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you take that medication?
17 A. A little.
18 Q. Why did you stop?
19 A. I just didn't want it.
20 Q. Was the medication helping the condition of
21 your knees?
22 A. It did not help.
23 Q. Well, do you think if you would have kept
24 taking it that it may have helped?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 279 1 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. He can
2 answer.
3 THE WITNESS: It can't help me.
4 BY MR. SMITH:
5 Q. Did the doctor tell you to stop taking the
6 medication or was that your decision?
7 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but he can
8 answer.
9 THE WITNESS: Myself.
10 BY MR. SMITH:
11 Q. Did the doctor want you to continue taking the
12 medication?
13 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. He can
14 answer.
15 THE WITNESS: I didn't go to the
16 doctor.
17 BY MR. SMITH:
18 Q. Who gave you the medication for your knees?
19 A. Doctor.
20 Q. A doctor?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you remember the doctor's name?
23 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection.
24 THE WITNESS: I don't.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 280 1 BY MR. SMITH:
2 Q. Do you remember any of the doctors' names who
3 gave you any treatment that you've described
4 here today?
5 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but he can
6 answer.
7 THE WITNESS: No.
8 BY MR. SMITH:
9 Q. So that I understand, the doctor who treated
10 you for your knees recommended to you to take
11 medication, but you decided not to take it, is
12 that right?
13 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection. He can
14 answer.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 BY MR. SMITH:
17 Q. Do you have any memory of any of the
18 discussions you had with Dr. Crosby?
19 A. No, I don't.
20 Q. Do you have any memory of any of the
21 discussions you had with Dr. Nyanyuki? That's
22 N-Y-A-N-Y-U-K-I.
23 MR. HOFFMAN: Object, but you can
24 answer.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 281 1 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. I
2 don't remember.
3 BY MR. SMITH:
4 Q. Were you ever treated by a doctor from
5 Nairobi?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you remember the doctor's name?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What is the doctor's name?
10 A. I remember her name was Dinah.
11 Q. Dinah. Was that her first name or her last
12 name?
13 A. I don't know whether it was the first name,
14 last name, I don't know.
15 Q. Okay. And how did you get to Dr. Dinah?
16 A. She was brought by Dr. Sondra.
17 Q. Okay. And for what conditions were you
18 treated for by Dr. Dinah?
19 A. Mostly about the flashback and my weakness.
20 Q. How many times did you see Dr. Dinah?
21 A. I don't remember.
22 Q. Was it more than once?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And did Dr. Dinah prescribe any medications?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 282 1 A. I don't remember.
2 Q. Do you have any memory of any diagnosis that
3 was made by Dr. Dinah about any of your
4 medical conditions?
5 A. I don't remember.
6 Q. Mr. Salim, do you think you'd be feeling
7 better and getting well if you would take the
8 medications that the doctors are recommending?
9 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but he can
10 answer.
11 THE WITNESS: I don't think they
12 would have helped me.
13 BY MR. SMITH:
14 Q. And why do you think that the doctors are
15 prescribing medications for you if you don't
16 think they're going to help?
17 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but he can
18 answer.
19 THE WITNESS: So if the doctor give
20 you the medication, you're going to be healed?
21 BY MR. SMITH:
22 Q. No. What I'm trying to understand is if you
23 go see a doctor and they prescribe medication,
24 why is it that you think that what they're
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 283 1 prescribing isn't going to help you?
2 A. I just know, by myself, that they will not
3 help me.
4 Q. Did you tell any of the doctors that?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you know a man named Matthew Friedman?
7 A. I don't know him.
8 Q. Do you know a man named Allen Keller?
9 A. I don't know him.
10 Q. Did you ever speak with journalists from BBC
11 Radio?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you remember who you spoke to?
14 A. I don't.
15 Q. Do you remember what you talked about?
16 A. I remember.
17 Q. What did you talk about?
18 A. Yes, I remember.
19 Q. What did you talk about?
20 A. Just the way I was at jail and how things were
21 at jail.
22 Q. At which jail?
23 A. All of them.
24 Q. Okay. Who put you in touch with the
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 284 1 journalists from BBC Radio?
2 A. They came to me.
3 Q. Do you know how they found you?
4 A. They came to my home.
5 Q. Do you know how they found you?
6 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but he can
7 answer.
8 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
9 BY MR. SMITH:
10 Q. Did you speak with any other journalists other
11 than the BBC Radio people and James we've
12 talked about earlier?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Who else did you talk to?
15 A. The Germans.
16 Q. Germans?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. Was that from Radio Deutsche Welle and
19 Panorama in Germany?
20 A. I just knew this, it was German.
21 Q. Who put you in touch with the Germans?
22 A. They just came to me.
23 Q. Okay. Do you know an individual by the name
24 of Brock Chisholm?
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 285 1 A. I know the name Brock, but I don't know
2 Chisholm.
3 Q. And who is this person?
4 A. Dr. Brock.
5 Q. Who is Dr. Brock?
6 A. It's a doctor.
7 Q. Okay. Is Dr. Brock a doctor treating you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And what is Dr. Brock treating you for?
10 A. Just like if you are -- you have thoughts or
11 if you're trying to think of many things, you
12 need to do this, things like that.
13 MR. SMITH: Jane, could you repeat
14 the witness's answer.
15 (Whereupon, the answer was read back
16 by the court reporter as requested.)
17 BY MR. SMITH:
18 Q. What kind of doctor is Dr. Brock?
19 MR. HOFFMAN: Objection, but he can
20 answer.
21 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
22 BY MR. SMITH:
23 Q. When did Dr. Brock start treating you?
24 A. I don't remember.
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 286 1 Q. Is Dr. Brock presently treating you?
2 A. No.
3 Q. When did the treatment stop?
4 A. I don't remember.
5 Q. Why did the treatment stop?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Did Dr. Brock prescribe any medications?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Mr. Salim, are you aware that there's a trial
10 scheduled to take place in this case?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And is it your intention to testify in the
13 case?
14 A. How?
15 Q. Well, let's get to how later. Let's just get
16 to, is it your intention to testify?
17 A. I don't understand. What testimony?
18 MR. SMITH: Let's go off the record.
19 VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 12:21.
20 We're off the record.
21 (Brief pause.)
22 VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record.
23 The time is 12:24.
24 MR. SMITH: I have no further
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 287 1 questions of the witness.
2 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. Do we have a
3 protocol for signing and time and all that
4 stuff? I assume the usual stipulations.
5 MS. ALEXANDER: No, we didn't have
6 them previously. I mean...
7 MR. SMITH: You guys have been
8 reading and signing, haven't you?
9 MR. WATT: Yeah. We have.
10 (All parties speaking at once.)
11 MR. SMITH: No, but we're not --
12 there's no waiving reading, signing?
13 MR. HOFFMAN: No. No. No.
14 COURT REPORTER: Are we off the
15 record? Are we off the record here?
16 MR. SMITH: Sorry, we're off the
17 record.
18 VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 12:25.
19 We're off the record.
20 (End of proceedings: 12:25 p.m.)
21
22
23
24
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 288 1 COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS )
2 SUFFOLK, SS: )
3
4 I, JANE M. BORROWMAN, Registered
5 Professional Reporter and Notary Public in and
6 for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, do
7 hereby certify that on March 15, 2017,
8 Suleiman Abdullah Salim, the witness whose
9 deposition is hereinbefore set forth, was duly
10 sworn by me and that such deposition is a true
11 record of the testimony given by the witness.
12 I further certify that I am neither
13 related to or employed by any of the parties
14 in or counsel to this action, nor am I
15 financially interested in the action.
16 In witness whereof, I have hereunto
17 set my hand and seal this 28th day of March
18 2017.
19
20 Notary Public
21 RPR No. 001420
22
23 My commission expires:
24 7 December 2023
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 289 1 *** ERRATA SHEET *** TRANSPERFECT DEPOSITION SERVICES 2 216 E. 45th Street, Suite #903 NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10017 3 (212) 400-8845 4 CASE: SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM et al. v. MITCHELL DATE: MARCH 15, 2017 5 WITNESS: SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM REF: 18304 6 PAGE LINE FROM TO 7 ____|______|______|______8 ____|______|______|______9 ____|______|______|______10 ____|______|______|______11 ____|______|______|______12 ____|______|______|______13 ____|______|______|______14 ____|______|______|______15 ____|______|______|______16 ____|______|______|______17 ____|______|______|______18 ____|______|______|______19 ____|______|______|______20 ______21 SULEIMAN ABDULLAH SALIM Subscribed and sworn to before me 22 this ____ day of ______, 20__. 23 ______24 Notary Public
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 290
A 232:3 arms 256:24 257:4 243:5 246:1 202:12 Abdullah 194:5,15 Americans 220:23 257:8,14,16,20 256:19,22 257:1,4 big 227:1 253:24 195:2 198:2,9 247:23 Army 221:5,7 257:8,18,19 bigger 222:13,14 203:5,8 206:20 Ammar 243:24 arrested 273:17 258:17 259:3,6 Bill 197:4 288:8 289:4,5,21 answer 199:17 arrived 219:22 262:22 264:24 bit 202:4 205:15 able 215:4,6 219:2 205:6 207:22 article 198:16 266:3,8 274:23 BLANK 196:20 219:11 208:4 209:9 236:24 237:2,4,6 275:5 285:15 blankets 222:23 Abu 243:7 213:18 214:20 237:9,16 286:22 blindfolded 252:17 acceptable 201:14 215:19 216:4 asked 199:5 201:21 bad 249:12,16 253:3 ACLU 227:4,7 217:12,21 218:3,9 205:17 221:11,18 257:15 body 256:9 263:10 229:15,16,24 221:14,22 222:7 225:3 234:8,10,16 Bagram 218:16,17 Borrowman 230:4 223:16 225:5 234:17 240:12 218:19 219:3,18 194:23 288:4 action 194:9 228:21 226:22 228:11 241:4 253:12 219:21,22 225:8 boss 227:1 229:9 288:14,15 230:10,19 231:19 265:11,18 225:13,20,23 Bossasso 213:24 activities 256:13 232:10 233:8 asking 217:22 233:15 235:1 bound 210:8 activity 204:23 235:3,7 237:21 220:19 221:8 266:17,19,23,24 bowl 249:22 addition 243:3 238:7,14,20 239:7 250:24 267:15 brain 270:9,16,19 265:8 239:14,19 240:6 aspirin 260:24 banana 264:16,17 270:23 advance 201:11 241:22 242:6,13 261:3 bananas 264:18 bread 265:3 advice 263:20 242:20 244:16,23 assume 287:4 based 199:17 200:5 break 205:14,20,21 273:20 276:12 245:5,22 247:8,18 assuming 235:16 235:5 232:14 233:18 advise 200:19 251:24 255:10,22 attempt 204:6 basis 199:9,22 236:1 262:13,17 advised 272:16 256:15 269:22 attempted 275:6 202:7,16 204:20 breakfast 264:10 Afghanistan 270:4,13 271:6 attention 243:11 242:1 261:12 264:12,22 252:13 253:6 272:19 273:2 244:7 BBC 283:10 284:1 Brief 233:23 Africa 195:4 275:14 276:16 attorney 229:11 284:11 262:21 286:21 ago 200:8 267:18 279:2,8,14 280:6 attorneys 201:22 Beach 196:6 bring 260:14 268:4 276:4 280:14,24 282:10 229:10 bearing 207:10 bringing 204:19 ahead 217:3 282:18 284:7 attorney/client beat 222:2 224:7,21 227:10 AHMED 194:6 285:14,15,20 199:18,23 215:19 256:6,12 Broad 196:12 airplane 218:22,24 answered 206:4 August 225:8 beating 248:2 Brock 284:24 285:1 al 244:1 289:4 214:9 235:20 authorities 199:5 249:14 285:4,5,7,9,18,23 Alexander 196:19 268:8 199:20 200:3,4,10 beatings 255:7 286:1,7 287:5 answers 216:22 authority 199:6,7 256:4 broken 247:12 alias 243:9 244:14 anybody 234:10 200:1 bed 200:17 274:21 brought 249:22 245:19 246:13 authorize 232:2 beginning 221:19 264:18 281:16 allegation 202:8,17 anytime 258:5 Avenue 196:5 begins 203:4 BRUCE 194:12 allegations 199:10 APPEARANCES aware 217:15,23 behalf 196:2,17 brush 220:12 199:23 196:1 219:21 229:19 228:21 229:9 brutal 240:20 alleged 202:9 appeared 236:24 286:9 232:4 241:16 Allen 283:8 237:16 a.m 195:6 203:7 believing 203:18 B-A-L-U-C-H-I al-Baluchi 244:1 appears 247:1 a/k/a 244:11 BEN 194:6 244:1 al-Pakistani 243:7 Approved 198:14 bend 261:13,15,19 B C 244:10,14 245:19 approximately better 269:13 America 206:3 214:16 268:2 B 198:6 277:12 282:7 C 199:1 American 196:11 argumentative back 200:14 203:6 beverages 265:7 Calexander@Bla... 244:23 233:24 234:19,21 beyond 201:18 196:24
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California 196:6 248:22,23 249:1 conditions 219:5 280:18 deemed 210:7 called 203:9 class 225:14 255:19,20 265:13 Cross 225:24 226:3 defendant 203:10 Captive 198:17 clear 202:2 276:14 281:17 226:6,9 defendants 194:13 237:18 client 202:8 282:4 cruel 199:12 196:17 198:10 captivity 233:16 clients 201:10 confidential 210:8 216:19 206:22 217:7,17 235:2 247:15 202:8 204:21 connection 232:17 CSR 194:23 218:1 253:17 267:21 240:13 242:18 236:17 245:14 curious 245:1 defendant's 199:11 270:11 273:17 close 199:21 250:1 consider 199:5 cut 249:20 264:18 202:1 case 201:20 202:19 cloth 213:20 200:3 degrading 199:13 206:11 226:18 clothes 219:11 contact 226:2 D 216:20 232:23 236:17 colleague 200:19 228:17,17 229:16 D 198:1 199:1 delivered 208:24 263:2 286:10,13 colleagues 200:14 contend 217:18 daily 261:12 Demand 198:11 289:4 come 201:22 270:9 damages 198:15 depend 266:5 cases 201:1 208:22 220:18,23 contention 205:1 217:9 226:18 268:18 cast 254:19 223:9 240:3 continue 202:17 247:4 263:2 depends 222:20 catch 216:24 248:21 275:5 203:19 255:14 Dar 250:10,10,11 265:3 266:4,6 cause 272:10 comes 258:7 260:16 278:6 279:11 250:13,19 267:9 268:8,17 cell 222:13,17 267:2,2 continued 198:3 dark 213:21,23 deposition 194:15 223:1,4,14,23 coming 249:15 203:12 255:6 214:1 215:3 195:2 198:12 224:6,13 256:19 commission 288:23 contractors 240:19 darkness 198:17 199:4,21 201:12 266:23,24 commit 204:6 241:15,19 242:2 204:5 222:5 201:16 202:5,22 certification Committee 198:13 contractures 247:6 226:20 237:19 203:5,19,23 288:9 207:10,19 208:2 232:16 233:6 contrary 199:7 248:1 249:11 288:10 289:1 209:7,16 Commonwealth 200:4 252:13 253:7,17 depositions 202:19 certify 288:7,12 288:1,6 core 202:7 254:8 266:13,16 depression 273:24 chance 214:10 communicating correct 224:14,18 267:12,14,17 274:3 216:24 223:19 225:17 225:9 249:9 255:2 268:1 describe 219:8 230:16 communication 271:4 date 195:5 229:17 220:1 221:11 change 218:13 226:5,8 correctly 226:16 232:21 251:14 257:13,17 258:16 changing 224:4 communications counsel 203:9 252:2 289:4 263:8 264:5 Charrise 196:19 201:9 215:20 288:14 day 199:3 202:20 266:21 271:12 checkup 275:12,12 compared 268:20 count 267:19 202:22 203:4,23 273:9 274:11,20 chew 258:6 complaint 198:11 couple 200:16 204:12 214:17,21 described 255:8 Chisholm 284:24 199:10 232:18 course 224:23 218:6 263:24 280:3 285:2 conceded 217:16 231:16 240:11 264:1,6,9 271:24 DESCRIPTION CIA 221:2 240:19 217:23 court 194:1 234:22 272:2 275:1,3 198:7 241:14,19 242:2 concept 273:23 235:6 285:16 288:17 289:22 designed 199:15 circumstances 274:5 287:14 days 231:12,14,16 202:10 233:16 235:2 concern 226:18 cover 210:8 232:13 250:16,20 detention 216:18 Civil 194:9 196:11 Conclusions covered 213:15 DC 196:22 Deutsche 284:18 232:3 198:13 219:14 deal 255:2 devise 240:19 claim 198:15 condition 261:24 crazy 269:6 December 288:24 241:15 242:3 204:21 263:12,21 271:9 Crosby 198:8 decided 204:11,12 diagnosed 270:18 claims 201:19 271:12,20 272:4,7 248:15,17 249:1 277:16 280:11 272:10 Clara 228:24 229:1 273:21 274:2,15 250:3,7 251:13,18 decision 255:14,18 diagnosis 282:2 229:6,9 231:1,6,8 276:13 277:14,18 251:22 253:16,22 256:6 279:6 diet 265:14 231:23 236:14 278:2,20 254:5,10,21 decreased 268:15 different 267:14
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TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 293 forceful 219:13 282:19 hand 237:11 helping 277:13,18 264:24 284:4 forces 261:18 given 208:13 255:1 246:20 247:5,11 278:20 hope 201:14 forget 235:19 276:22 277:2 247:14 248:11,12 herbal 258:19 hopelessness 274:6 forgotten 249:6 278:1,14 288:11 249:9,20,23,24 259:2 274:9 formal 205:24 gives 271:21 251:7 254:8,18 herbs 248:9 258:19 hours 200:16 forth 288:9 giving 204:10 255:2 256:4 258:20,21,22,23 274:22 275:3 Forty-one 252:21 234:13 288:17 263:13,17,18 humorous 244:21 found 284:3,5 glass 213:21,23 handcuffed 219:13 hereinbefore 288:9 245:2 FOUNDATION glasses 214:1 215:3 handcuffs 214:4 hereunto 288:16 hurting 249:11,16 196:11 215:4 219:15 handed 208:19 Hermosa 196:6 259:17 four 250:20 276:21 hands 214:4 248:5 hide 204:11 hurts 257:16 fractured 254:12 go 202:12,23 203:1 249:16 Hoffman 196:3,4 260:11 254:15 217:3 220:11 hanging 248:2 199:2 200:22 Fredman 195:3 222:12 228:19 happen 220:20 205:5 207:21 I frequency 223:12 231:22 243:5 267:3 271:22 208:3 209:8,19 ibuprofen 204:10 260:6,8 268:14 246:1 256:22 happened 204:8 210:1 213:17 idea 209:6 frequent 259:21 262:6 269:12 256:7 265:23 214:8,19 215:13 identification frequently 223:6 274:21,23 275:4 266:13,21 270:10 215:18 216:3 206:14 233:2 257:6 259:19 279:15 282:23 hard 249:12,19 218:2,8 221:13,21 237:14 246:19 260:3 261:9 286:18 HARRIS 196:4 222:6 223:15,18 251:6,8 271:19,22 274:24 goes 267:2,2 Hassan 243:14,16 225:4 226:21 identifies 216:17 Friedman 283:6 going 200:2 202:21 244:9 228:10 230:9,15 identify 206:19 full 229:5 206:11 208:10 head 259:17 230:18 231:18 251:12 further 286:24 217:1 219:19 headache 260:9,10 232:9 233:7,18 II 194:16 288:12 220:12 230:18 260:12,23 234:15 237:20 images 215:5 232:22 237:11 headaches 259:24 238:6,13,19 239:2 implemented G 241:12 246:20 260:1,7,15,18,20 239:4,6,13,18 199:15 202:10 G 199:1 209:24 249:21 251:7 265:13 270:17,21 240:5,23 241:3,21 inaudible 271:16 generate 242:17 253:12 269:6,8 271:4 242:5,12,19 includes 216:21 German 284:20 271:17 282:16,20 heading 213:24 244:15,22 245:4 inclusion 216:21 Germans 284:15 283:1 healed 282:20 245:21 247:7,17 increased 268:15 284:16,21 good 199:2 202:16 hear 219:2 232:20 251:23 253:8,11 independent Germany 284:19 202:24 203:14,15 243:21 255:9,21 256:14 201:17 Gesturing 220:3 grams 204:11 heard 227:1,3,6 258:21,23 262:10 indicating 199:21 249:21 257:18 guards 225:15 232:15 243:6,23 262:14,18 269:21 individual 243:18 261:20 guess 273:17 274:2 270:3,12 271:5 243:24 244:3 getting 259:12 GUL 194:8 hearing 218:6 272:18 273:1 284:23 260:17 261:23 guys 287:7 held 204:4 253:17 275:13 276:15 information 201:4 263:11 269:4 helicopter 218:22 279:1,7,13,23 207:18 208:1,11 282:7 H 218:24 280:5,13,23 282:9 209:18 256:1 Ghul 243:14,16 H 198:6 help 255:2 278:22 282:17 284:6 infrequency 223:13 244:10 246:2,2 habits 263:24 279:3 282:16 285:19 287:2,13 inhuman 199:13 give 199:6 200:3 274:18 283:1,3 [email protected]... 216:19 203:19 205:8 half 220:8,10,16 helped 229:10 196:8 initials 243:19 214:9 216:24 222:2,11 224:3 240:19 241:15 Hogan 195:3 injection 276:23 223:18 230:15 Hamza 244:3 242:2 278:24 hold 261:20 Injruies 198:15 262:7 276:11 246:15 282:12 home 226:13 248:9 injure 224:21
TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected] Page 294 injuries 224:24 234:8,10,24 235:5 keep 217:1 277:22 283:7,8,9 284:3,5 Liberties 196:11 248:11 249:8 235:10 240:4 Keller 283:8 284:8,23 285:1,1 232:3 injury 216:17,22 254:22 Kendagor 197:3 285:21 286:6 light 202:18 220:13 217:8,9 270:9,16 investigation kept 220:6 223:1 knowledge 201:18 LINE 289:6 270:19,23 201:23 217:13,21 224:4 268:1 known 228:7,7,12 links 202:8 instruct 215:19 invoked 199:24 278:23 228:15 245:18 little 202:4 205:15 244:22 involved 204:22 Khaled 243:21 knows 205:18 265:6 278:7,7,17 instructed 199:17 217:12 255:18 kilo 227:15 KSM 243:19 living 219:20 Intelligence 198:13 256:2 kind 201:3 221:17 LLP 196:4,20 232:16 233:6 isolation 273:7 224:24 248:19 L located 276:7 intention 200:13 issue 202:6 259:2 263:16 L 196:3,19 LOCATION 195:3 286:12,16 issues 259:7 275:18 285:18 language 209:3 long 220:6 223:1,9 inter 223:9 item 256:23 kinds 225:2 233:12 231:11 250:15 interested 288:15 knees 258:9,14 laptop 254:1 267:1,5,6 268:6 interpreter 197:2,3 J 276:22 278:14,21 larger 224:6,13 276:6 277:7,8 205:13,14,19,22 jail 253:5 268:12 279:18 280:10 laugh 258:5 look 208:9 229:10 206:1,5,8 217:2 273:15 283:20,21 knew 244:10 laughing 245:2 270:7 218:18 227:19,22 283:22 284:20 lawsuit 227:10 looked 208:5,8 230:17 231:4 James 194:11 know 201:6,7 202:7 229:18,21 230:8 270:1,2,5 235:7 252:5,7,9 196:18 235:11,14 204:9,18 205:11 240:18 241:14 looking 238:3 252:19,22 235:17,18 236:23 208:6 216:8,9 242:17 245:15 lot 204:9 260:11 interrogate 205:15 237:24 238:1,2,4 217:10,10,11,14 lawyer 208:16,17 261:13,17 270:17 206:2 238:11,24 239:11 217:19 218:4,20 209:23 227:13,14 Lovells 195:3 interrogated 239:24 240:4 219:17,19 220:5 227:24 228:6,8,13 220:17 223:4,6,13 241:13 242:10,23 221:2,3,4,8 228:15,22,23 M 223:21 224:2,14 243:3 284:11 225:10,10 227:24 229:4 236:9,10 M 194:23 196:10 interrogating James's 235:14 228:2,5,9 229:6 237:5 238:4 240:2 227:15,19 288:4 224:10 Jane 194:23 285:13 229:21 230:5,5,6 249:6 machine 253:24 interrogation 288:4 230:7 232:5 233:5 lawyers 201:9 mail 208:22 224:18 240:20 jaw 257:24 258:4 233:9 235:18 215:11 217:12,13 making 248:3 241:16 242:3 Jessen 194:12 236:7,19,22 238:2 217:20,23 227:4,7 271:16 interrogations 199:11 204:22 238:2,16,21,23 234:3 235:24 man 228:5 238:16 224:5,16,20,23 205:2 240:13 239:15 241:20,23 242:9 245:13 243:13 283:6,8 225:3 Jessen's 227:6 242:9,14,16,21 layman 205:15 March 194:17 interrogatories Joan 251:18 243:13,15,18,24 learn 225:19,22 195:5 288:7,17 198:10 206:22 Job 194:24 244:3 245:1 227:9,12 289:4 216:22 Johananesburg 246:11,13,17 learned 202:18 Margaret 197:2 interrogatory 195:4 248:14,20,20,21 225:13 205:18 216:24 205:11,18,22,23 JOHN 194:12 253:6 255:17 leaves 259:4,5 mark 206:11 interrupt 262:15 journalists 283:10 256:5,21 259:4 left 203:21 213:24 232:22 237:11 Interrupting 284:1,10 260:14 264:19 214:22 218:14 marked 198:12 245:11 juice 265:10 265:20 267:6,19 234:9 277:12 206:14,16 233:2 interview 235:19 Jury 198:11 268:5 270:8 legal 201:8 237:14,15 246:19 235:22 236:1,4,8 J-A-M-E-S 235:13 272:13,20 273:3 legs 219:13 275:23 246:21 251:6,7 236:12,19,23 273:23 275:10 letter 226:12,14 Mary 227:15,18,19 K 240:11 242:10,16 276:10 277:10 let's 200:17 256:22 227:20 interviewed 233:14 K 227:15 281:13,14 283:2,6 286:15,15,18 Massachusetts
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TransPerfect Legal Solutions 212-400-8845 - [email protected]