POLICE AND CORRECTIONS (AMENDMENT) BILL

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Wednesday, 30 April 1997 Supreme Court Act 1986 - No. 31. Subordinate Legislation Act 1994 - Minister's exception certificate under section 8(4) in respect of Statutory Rule No. 31/1997. The PRESIDENT (Hon. B. A. Chamberlain) took the chair at 10.02 a.m. and read the prayer. Ministers' exemption certificates under section 9(6) in respect of Statutory Rules Nos 30 and 34/1997. POLICE AND CORRECTIONS Proclamations of His Excellency the Govemor in (AMENDMENT) BILL Council fixing operative dates in respect of the following Acts: Introduction and first reading Firearms Act 1996 - Remaining provisions (except Received from Assembly. sections 201(3) and 202) - 29 April 1997 (Gazette No. G16, 24 April 1997). Read first time on motion of Hon. G. R CRAIGE (Minister for Roads and Ports). Parliament House Completion Authority (Repeal) Act 1997 - Remaining provisions - 22 April 1997 (Gazette BUDGET PAPERS, 1997-98 No. 42,22 April 1997).

Hon. RI. KNOWLES (Minister for Health) - By BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE leave, I move: Sessional orders That there be laid before this house a copy of the following 1997-98 budget papers: Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Minister for Health) - I (a) Treasurer's Speech (Budget Paper No. 1); move:

(b) Budget Statement (Budget Paper No. 2); That so much of the sessional orders be suspended as (c) Budget Estimates (Budget Paper No. 3). would prevent general business taking precedence over other business until 2.30 p.m. during the sitting of the Motion agreed to. Council this day.

Laid on table. Motion agreed to. Ordered to be considered next day on motion of AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE Hon. R.1. KNOWLES (Minister for Health). Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS (Jika Jika) - I move: PAPERS That this house - Laid on table by Clerk: (a) recognises that the Victorian Commission of Audit, Crown Land (Reserves) Act 1978 - Minister's Order of the report of the review of the Audit Act and other 12 April 1997 giving approval to granting of lease at performance audits of the Auditor-General's office Kingston. have all acknowledged that the current system of independent auditing by the Auditor-General has Driver Education Centre of Australia Ltd - Minister served Victoria well; for Tertiary Education and Training's report of receipt (b) acknowledges the validity of community concerns, of 1996 Annual Report. and those of prominent persons, about proposed changes to the role of the Auditor-General; Statutory Rules under the following Acts of Parliament: (c) endorses the motion passed by the Australasian Firearms Act 1996 - No. 32. Council of Public Accounts Committees in Fisheries Act 1968 - No. 34. February 1997 supporting the operational independence of the Auditor-General which states Legal Practice Act 1996 - No. 30. that 'The Auditor-General should have the sole Subordinate Legislation Act 1994 - No. 33. power to carry out, or designate an auditor to carry out, the external audit on all agencies which AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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are owned, controlled or substantially responsible department? There are not too many examples of to government'; and that occurring! However, you will find the Auditor-General has found many examples of such (d) believes that, in order to ensure the continuing total practices and has brought them to the attention of independence and effectiveness of the the public. Auditor-General and his office, the Auditor-General should maintain total discretion, Today we have a chance to have a reasoned debate including operational discretion, over the conduct about the role and importance of the of audits of all Victorian government departments Auditor-General. This is an occasion on which this and agencies. house can have an impact on the important issues I have been a member of this house since October facing Victoria and do things in the public interest. 1988. In that time many debates have taken place in There comes a time in our careers when we need to which honourable members have given both good show that we are prepared to stand on principle and and bad speeches. Today's debate is the most support what is right rather than what might be in important debate in which I have ever been involved our short-term political or other interests. I say this because the motion goes to the very heart of our in the knowledge that you, Mr President, have been democratic system of government. Government one of those who has been prepared to comment on members may treat the debate flippantly if they this issue. wish, but they will be judged by the people of Victoria. The Westminster system has been built partially on the independence of the Auditor-General and his or This issue goes to the heart of why we have all her ability to scrutinise the operation of the dedicated much of our lives to public service. It is an executive on behalf of the Parliament and the issue on which we should not flippantly dismiss community. No other government in Australia or each other or shout each other down - it requires elsewhere that operates under the Westminster reasoned debate. I call on all honourable members to system has attacked that fundamental principle, consider the issue carefully during the debate. The which has been followed in Victoria for more than public wants to be assured that as members of 140 years. Victoria is the only state in Australia in Parliament we provide value for money, and the which a conservative government has an assured public debate about the role of the upper house is majority in the upper house, yet in the judgment of partly about that issue. Indeed, the role of the upper the opposition the Victorian Parliament is the most house was examined recently by the press. ineffective and inefficient government-controlled legislature in Australia. That is an indictment on us The upper house probably costs about half as much all because honourable members in this place are not to run as does the Office of the Auditor-General, but prepared to stand up and say, 'Enough is enough! if you went out onto the street and asked people We, at least, have to defend the Victorian whether they would rather see the Victorian upper Auditor-General'. house or the Auditor-General go in a cost-cutting exercise, I dare say there would not be too many The government has been constantly attacking the people who would come down on the side of the independent voices in this state: it has restricted the upper house - and that includes members from rights of individuals to appeal to the Supreme Court, both sides of the house. degraded the role of Parliament, undermined the independence of the judiciary, sacked statutory Honourable members interjecting. bodies, politicised a whole range of government instrumentalities and created a climate of fear in the The PRESIDENT - Order! The issue before the public service. When will it all end? Most people are house is a serious one and should be treated as such saying that it will all end the moment that the by the house. The Leader of the Opposition should Auditor-General is nobbled by the government be allowed to develop his case without being because that is when the notion of democracy shouted down. becomes problematic. The motion supports the independence of the Auditor-General, including his Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - The reason operational independence, and should be supported people would prefer to keep the Auditor-General is by members on both sides of the chamber. obvious when one asks the question: when was the last time the upper house uncovered corruption, Since the government was elected five years ago overspending or mismanagement by a government there have been three reviews of the Office of the AliDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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Auditor-General, all of which have largely praised ability to choose between the Auditor-General or the efficiency and effectiveness of the office and the private auditors. way the Auditor-General does his job. A more cynical observer might wonder whether the That created a storm of protest. A wide cross-section government conducted such regular and thorough of the community objected to it. The Herald Sun inquiries into the office to see whether it could catch editorial of 25 November 1996 said: the Auditor-General out. However, those thorough examinations have attested to the integrity of Electors, whatever their political allegiance, should not Mr Baragwanath and given credence to the view tolerate any attempt by the ruling coalition to censure that the proposed changes to his office that have or subvert the Auditor-General's role. been justified as being necessary under the government's competition policy are merely an The Sunday Age editorial of 24 November 1996 said: excuse to remove the Auditor-General, who is the last remaining truly independent critic of the The faithful watchdog must remain free, unchained government. and unmuzzled, to do its job. It is the government's arrogance on this issue that needs restraining. All honourable members know they have responsibilities and obligations to their constituents. On behalf of the Victorian Council of Civil Uberties, Members will be aware that Tony Harris, who is the Robert Richter, QC, has stated: New South Wales Auditor-General and who chairs meetings of Australian auditors-general, has drawn Together with changes to a variety of statutory this matter to the attention of members of authorities and judicial bodies this latest move Parliament. In the Australian of 28 April he referred undermines Victoria's commitment to the rule of law to the High Court's decision in Horne v. Barber, in and thereby the capacity of the government to deliver which the court asserted: services in the public interest and in a manner consistent with procedural justice. One of the duties [of a member of Parliament] is that of watching on behalf of the general community the Frank Costigan, QC, has stated: conduct of the executive, of criticising it and, if necessary, of calling it to account in a constitutional In the circumstances it is clear that the attempt to base way by censure ... that is the whole essence of the review on the national competition policy is flawed responsible government, which is the keystone of our beyond correction. It should be abandoned forthwith. political system, and is the main constitutional safeguard the community possesses. The Australian Society of Certified Practising Accountants has said: The instrument for Parliament holding the executive to account is the Auditor-General. Members of Any proposal to interfere with the independence of the Parliament who do not support the independence of Auditor-General should set alarm bells ringing the Auditor-General are not doing their jobs - they amongst the whole population because an independent are not representing the interests of their auditor is one of the pillars of a democratic society and constituents. one of the very few ways of ensuring proper accountability. This whole sorry affair began in a secretive way when in late 1996 the Kennett government decided The government's establishment of the review was to embark on a process of review of the widely condemned by the community. Of course, Auditor-General and that process was made public one gets a different answer if one asks, 'Why was it by the opposition. The government's terms of necessary to embark on the review?'. But the real reference set out what it wanted to achieve at that question is, 'Why did the Auditor-General have to time: be silenced?'. One need only look at some of the revelations and some of the mismanagement ... the current restriction whereby the Auditor-General uncovered by the Auditor-General to find the may authorise other persons to undertake financial answer to the question. audits should be extended so that some or all financial audits and performance audits should be conducted by Among other things, the Auditor-General criticised private auditing firms, or alternatively so that the government's failure to demand up to authorities may select their own auditor, with the 5174 million from Crown Casino for its extra AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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157 gaming tables and its administration and use of The public accounts committee can scarcely function the Community Support Fund. He reported on the other than for a few lengthy special investigations - government's $130 million expenditure on such as the 1982-84 examination of public sector marketing, finding that some funds were used for superannuation - without the work of the party political advertising, and he reported that the Auditor-General. It can be an effective amplifier for his Leeds Media contract was awarded after a flawed findings, but could never have tUlcovered, for example, and inappropriate tender process. He released a the $35 million phoney interest swap financing scandal damning report on the government's child referred to on page 9 of the Auditor-General's protection system and reported critically on the response. In that case the Public AccotUlts Committee administration of the Otildren's Court, which report did manage to discover that the state had been the government would not table in Parliament. effectively borrowing at 15 per cent per annum real interest rates for a fixed five-year period in its (illegal) The Auditor-General reported critically on school efforts to plug a financial hole before 30 JtUle. That amalgamations. He found the government had could not have happened without the failed to follow its own guidelines in allocating Auditor-General's much-resisted investigation. I know. funds for capital works and had given questionable I was there. ' priorities to other more needy proposals. More recently, the Auditor-General uncovered the The Minister for Finance and I were members of the shocking situation involving the awarding of the committee examining the $35 million swap Intergraph contract. transaction. As the then chairman of the committee I had to examine the issue in conjunction with the Hon. Bill Forwood - At our request. Auditor-General, and there was pressure on me to produce a report. If the committee was to be honest Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - The it had to be critical of the government. The issue had Auditor-General does not do things at your request. been referred to the Public Accounts Committee by Mr Forwood is known as Back.flip Bill. He will go the Auditor-General to check whether he had got it down in history as the only Chairman of the Public right. Accounts and Estimates Committee who was not prepared to defend the Auditor-General. The committee had to have the courage either to say Mr Forwood should listen to the debate: he may yes, the Auditor-General was right or, as some eventually get the courage to say something in the people wanted us to do, run away and not say defence of the Auditor-General. anything. At that time government members of the committee were in the majority, but the committee The Honourable James Guest, a former member of came down with a much-heralded report that was this place, was also a chairman of a former public critical of the government of the day. The accounts committee. I worked with Mr Guest on that Auditor-General and the community understood committee for a number of years and I know that the that the committee had reported in the best comments he makes in his submission come from traditions of public accounts committees when it the heart. He is a strong supporter of the said the government had got it wrong and that its independence of the Auditor-General. In his actions were unlawful. submission to the review he states: I had many discussions with government members In the broader constitutional and political context at that time who wanted members of the committee, which I wish to persuade the committee is vital, the in one way or another, to sweep this under the 'clients' (other than Parliament) are a red herring. The carpet. That did not happen because the members of central agencies and any other government body can that committee had the courage to tell the truth, and and should commission whatever performance audits that is what this is all about - courage. It is about or reviews they wish, and disclose them as they wish or whether Mr Forwood and many other members of are required by law. They must not be allowed to this house have the courage of their convictions to contaminate the work of the Auditor-General, for do what they know is the right thing. whom there is no substitute, if Parliament and public are to know that there is some real chance of Back then I took a risk which could have affected my government agencies' incompetence and wrongdoing political career. As the then Chairman of the being disclosed. Economic and Budget Review Committee under the former Labor government I made the statement, '1his is wrong; the government has got it wrong'. I AVDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPE~DENCE

Wednesday, 30 April 1997 COUNCIL 513 made that statement not only in the committee motion is seconded by the Hon. B. Forwood from report but also publicly. If members look at the Victoria. interviews they will see that I said it was unlawful and should not have happened. According to the transcript of that meeting, my motion before the house to endorse the motion I simply ask Mr Forwood to follow the example of passed by a meeting of the Australasian public former public accounts and estimates committee accounts and estimates committees and its statement chairpersons, including the last one, the Honourable supporting the operational independence of the Graeme Weideman. Mr Weideman would not have Auditor-General was seconded by Mr Bill Forwood. taken the same attitude as Mr Forwood. He would That is reiterated at page 91, where the chairman have had the courage of his convictions when he again puts the motion and says: was the chairman of that committee, just as he has now that he is no longer a member of this place. I That motion was moved by Tasmania and seconded by challenge Mr Forwood to say anything other than Victoria when we resumed after lunch, and that is the that about Mr Weideman. motion before the chair.

It is important to look at exactly what has happened Again it was made clear that Mr Forwood, on behalf with public accounts and estimates committees. of Victoria, had seconded the motion. We are about Along with other members of the committee, I to see, yet again, one of his great backflips, because I attended the February meeting of the Australasian have absolutely no doubt that Mr Forwood will vote public accounts and estimates committees in against the motion before the house. He is an Sydney. As many members here would have done, I individual who is prepared to go to the meeting of have attended a number of such meetings in the public accounts committees in Sydney and big-note past. The Minister for Finance may well have been to himself by seconding not only the motion a few. At that meeting a document entitled Minimum supporting the operational independence of the Requirements for the Independence of the Auditor-General but the requirements moved at the Auditor-General was extensively debated by meeting, which include: representatives of all the committees and finally 2.2 The audit mandate should be extensive and include endorsed. The document is interesting because it financial statements and controls; compliance with deals with both the personal and the operational legislation; the efficiency and effectiveness of the independence of the Auditor-General. use of public monies, as approved by the Parliament in each jurisdiction; As to personal independence, it says the Auditor-General should be an officer of the and: Parliament, that Parliament should select and 2.3 The Auditor-General should not be subject to any recommend the Auditor-General for appointment by direction on how to cany out these audits; the the Governor or Governor-General and that Auditor-General will be free to determine the audit Parliament should be responsible for the program, including the bodies to be audited, the Auditor-General's termination of appointment. It nature and scope of audits, who will cany out the also deals with the operational independence of the audits and the priorities for audit. Auditor-General, and makes a number of statements, the first of which is incorporated in the All those requirements were finally agreed to in motion before the house: totality by the meeting of Australasian public accounts committees - and by Mr Forwood, as the The Auditor-General should have the sole power to Victorian representative. There is only one vote per carry out, or designate an auditor to carry out, the committee, and it is exercised by the chairperson. external audit on all agencies which are owned, controlled or substantially responsible to government. Hon. Bill Forwood - Or my delegate.

At page 89 of the transcript of that meeting the Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - Or the statement is put before the committees. At page 90 chairperson's delegate, who was there. I am sure the chairman, Mr Chappell, says: Mr Forwood would have liked to have delegated that responsibility to get himself off the hook. I intend to take that as the substantive motion and clear However, the fact remains that those motions were the decks. We are all working to the same point. Your supported by Mr Forwood at that meeting. Those motions are reflected in the motion before the house AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

514 COUNCIL Wednesday, 30 April 1997 today. In fact, in one instance the specific statement Victoria has a very strong and independent which Mr Forwood seconded is part of the motion. If Auditor-General. he votes against this motion before the house, I look forward to Mr Forwood identifying which parts of Hon. N. B. Lucas - Are you criticising their the motion he does not agree with or saying that he auditors-general ? no longer agrees with the motion he seconded in Sydney back in February. They are the only two Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - That is an conclusions one can reach. interesting question, because the report of the WA Inc. royal commission said that the Western Hon. N. B. Lucas - I am sure he will not agree Australian Auditor-General does not have adequate with you, though. powers, certainly not at the level of the Victorian Auditor-General. It pointed to the fact that this may Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - He actually well have been one of the reasons why there was agreed with me in Sydney, where it did not matter corruption in Western Australia. The problem in and where he thought he could get away with it. But Queensland is that it does not have a house of now, when he has to stand up and be counted one review. Queensland also had an absolutely arrogant way or the other, I am sure he will not agree with Premier, similar to the Premier we have in me. That is why we call him Backflip Bill. Victoria - who has to get his own way on all occasions. In the Herald Sun of 25 November 1996, In the broader debate, it is important to consider the Graeme Weideman, a former member of the other strength of feeling about the matters to which I have place, is quoted: referred. Mr President, you will be aware that the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly has recognised Graeme Weideman, who chaired the Public Accounts the vital role of the Auditor-General and that he took and Estimates Committee between 1992 and 1996, said a lead on that matter, which you supported. I refer it was vital the Auditor-General maintained 'total to an article in the Australian of 4 December last year, freedom'. which reports the New South Wales Auditor-General's comments on the Victorian I cannot understate the great importance placed by the government's proposals in the following terms: committee, and myself, on ensuring the continuation of an independent and strong office of the The NSW Auditor-General, Mr Tony Harris, said the Auditor-General ... government's moves to examine privatising Mr Baragwanath's functions stood in direct contrast to Hon. Bill Forwood - It's a quote from years recommendations from royal commissions. before.

He mentions royal commissions into corruption in Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - I will find the Queensland and Western Australia: most recent ones, because Mr Weideman has consistently made the point on this particular issue. 'Neither royal commission contemplated that any The Sunday Age of 27 April 1997 - is that recent government could act to weaken the strength of the enough for you? - reports: Auditor-General,' Mr Harris said. Mr Weideman said the system recommended by the 'So, using their logic ... any weakening of the role of the review panel would cost more and 'not hold the Auditor-General must increase the risk of corruption'. government of the day to account as effectively'.

That is what we are talking about in this state: His comments are supported by the vice-president whether by weakening the role of the of the Law Institute of Victoria, Mr Geoff Provis, Auditor-General, as is being proposed by the who is quoted as saying: government, we are increasing the risk of corruption in this state. Notwithstanding the disagreements I'm not satisfied that there needed to be changes. The members might have about the way the former publicly stated reason (for the changes) is to improve Labor government handled the economy or went efficiency. about managing the business of government, Victoria has not experienced the types of allegations However, given the independent watchdog role of the of corruption made in Western Australia and Auditor-General, one would be entitled to be Queensland. One of the major reasons for that is that suspicious as to whether they are the only reason. I AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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think it's disconcerting. The possible ramifications are The minister and Mr Forwood can say they support really very wide. the Auditor-General personally and uphold his independence and they can go on with all the rest of In the same article, Mr Tony Harris, the New South the nonsense that accompanies such statements, but Wales Auditor-General and convenor of the everyone knows that what is happening at the Australasian Council of Auditors-General, is moment is an attack on the office of the reported as having said that 'the changes were Auditor-General. Such statements remove the unacceptable' . Auditor-General from the capacity to run an audit office and to conduct audits in the public interest of So not just one person is making such statements. this state, and he will not stand for it. He will resign. Mr Forwood knows that editorial after editorial and He has said so, and I believe he will carry out that prominent person after prominent person has said act. If that happens Mr Forwood and the Minister for that what is proposed is unacceptable. Mr Saul Finance should be ashamed of themselves, as should Eslake, who conducted the commission of audit on every person who has taken a part in nobbling him. behalf of this government when it first came to It will be a sad day for this state if that occurs. What power, and for whom I know the minister has a lot about the so-called independent inquiry that has of respect, is referred to in an article in the Age of taken place? The Kennett government put up three 26 April. Again a prominent Australian has people to do the nobbling job on the expressed concern about the direction the Auditor-General and they have come back with the government is taking. It notes that: report as requested. Questions have been raised about the three individuals, and the opposition will Mr Eslake - who conducted a commission of audit on continue to raise them. Victoria's finances for the Kennett government after its 1992 election victory - reaffirmed statements in the Hon. Bill Forwood - Now we're attacking them, commission's report that backed the Auditor-General's are we? existing role. Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - Absolutely, and 'It ought in my view to be beyond argument that the we will continue to do so because it is typical of this final decision as to who conducts an audit must be government to put up stooges to do its bidding. That taken by the Auditor-General'. is what this is all about. For instance, Mr John Dabson-- I have already mentioned Mr Tony Harris, who pointed out also that if the proposed model is Hon. R. M. Hallam - What name did you use? adopted the result will be that the Auditor-General You cannot even get his name right. will become a figurehead; he will become an Auditor-General without a department and will Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - Mr John Dahlsen simply sign off audits, having no power to directly was a director of Sandridge City Development Pty conduct audits through the department controlled Ltd, which was involved in the $700 million Bayside by him. So he will be like a general without an development in 1992 that did not go ahead, and the army - the Auditor-General of this state will be Auditor-General wrote a report criticising that effectively emasculated. I have no doubt, as I know project. Mr Forwood and the minister have no doubt, that the Auditor-General, being a man of principle who Hon. Bill Forwood - Your government! is committed to public accountability in this state, will not be prepared to compromise his office and Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - He has been will resign. I have no doubt also that that is precisely consistent; he criticises all governments. That is his what the government wants him to do. I do think job, and good on him. I am glad he criticised our any member in the chamber or any member of the government and I hope he continues to criticise your public has any doubt about that. It will be a very sad government. That is his job, and Mr Forwood above occasion when someone who has served this state everybody else should understand that. His with distinction, has criticised both sides of politics comment is totally inane and stupid and shows that in this state, and has done an exemplary job, is he is not a person of principle and backbone. If he forced to resign. Knowing the character of the man were a person of backbone he would stand up and he will not accept a compromise to the say,'This is wrong. I am not having a bar of it'. If he independence of his office and he will resign. did not want to be offered the chairmanship of the AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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Public Accounts and Estimates Committee again he The Premier has already announced that he has would say, 'Well, I will go with the Auditor-General'. accepted the recommendations. He did not bother to speak to the Speaker or to you, Sir, and give you a Mr Forwood should have the courage to say those copies of the report. Given the concerns that both things, as should the Minister for Finance because you, Mr President, and the Speaker have expressed the Audit Act is one of his areas of responsibility. publicly I would have thought it would have been When he was in opposition he would come into this basic courtesy to do that, but never mind. I suppose place week after week and defend the we live and learn. Auditor-General. Where is the minister today? He puts up his hand in absolute hypocrisy and says he I can read bits of the report for those who have not supports the Auditor-General but is not prepared to been able to get a copy. At least Mr Forwood has put up his hand and say to the Premier, 'Stop it, Jeft. been able to get a copy. At page 52 of the Audit Act Stop it. We are not interested in this. We are review there is a discussion of cost effectiveness in supporting the Auditor-General'. Mr Ken Spencer relation to its recommended model: was another person involved with Crown Casino, and the Auditor-General has delivered a report The cost of providing audits may rise under the strongly critical of Crown Casino. recommended model -

A government member interjected. may rise, not fall-

Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - It is about but the committee considers that this will be more than conflict of interest. TIUs government should not offset by benefits flowing from an improved quality of appoint somebody who might have a conflict of audit and greater transparency in the use of public interest to conduct a review of an office. Some funds. people from the government side have been prepared to stand up and be counted. The Speaker What is the evidence that there would be an in the other place, Mr Jim Plowman, is mentioned in improved quality of audit? There is no evidence. The the Age of 22 November: last report Price Waterhouse produced on the Auditor-General looked at the office to see how it Mr Plowman - a fonner Liberal minister - told compared to private sector auditing firms. The Parliament he would 'keep a watching brief to ensure report said that the Auditor-General's office as best I can as Speaker of this Parliament that that compared favourably to private sector auditing process is not in any way compromised by a review'. firms.

He was referring to the Auditor-General. The Hon. W. A. N. Hartigan - You're not giving Speaker, at least, was concerned. You, Mr President, Price Waterhouse a boost here, are you? are also quoted in the Age of 30 November 1996 as supporting the position adopted by the Speaker. Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - It is clear it does However, none of that means anything to this not matter how strong an argument one uses in this government because it has people such as house because government members are simply not Mr Hartigan and Mr Forwood who can be trotted interested, they are wound up and vote in out to attack anybody, including the accordance with what they are told. The Age of Auditor-General, in the way proposed by this 24 November 1996 reports: review package. In 1995, Price Waterhouse examined the Hon. Bill Forwood - When did I attack the Auditor-General's office and found 'the Auditor-General? Auditor-General has achieved his objectives effectively and done so economically and efficiently'. Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - Mr Forwood is attacking the Auditor-General because he is It was found that the Auditor-General's office supporting the recommendations of this review. compared favourably with the leading private sector Copies of the review are hard to get. It is interesting chartered accounting firms. that the Premier did not want to make copies of it available to people such as yourself, Mr President. What does it say in the summary? It says that costs However, you will get one later this week. will rise with the use of the recommended model. AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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Hon. R. M. Hallam -It does not say that they there is literally a mountain of material about what will rise. is taking place and people are concerned about it.

Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - It states that People who have raised concerns include the former contracting costs may be higher but that the process chairman of the Public Accounts and Estimates will be transparent, competition will be fair and it Committee, the Honourable Graeme Weideman; the will at all times allow access to a wider range of convenor of the Australasian Council of skills. That is not the view of Price Waterhouse. Price Auditors-General, Tony Harris; the vice-president of Waterhouse says it compares favourably to all the the Law Institute of Victoria, Geoff Provis; the head leading accounting firms. I dare say that if the of the Victorian Commission of Audit, Saul Eslake; Auditor-General audited Price Waterhouse and the Executive Director of the Australian Society of some of the other private auditing firms he would Certified Practising Accountants, Michael McKenna; give them a few tips about how to carry out audits. and a variety of other business people.

The fact is that this issue has nothing to do with the Hon. W. A. N. Hartigan - What have they Auditor-General doing his job properly or any rejected? suggestion that he could do it better. The problem is that the Auditor-General has done his job too well. It Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - They have said is a simple problem of his having found too many that this proposed model is unacceptable. The faults in the system, too many cases of Premier has -- mismanagement, and cases of corruption and illegality - and the government does not want that Hon. W. A. N. Hartigan - He has made some to occur. The Auditor-General has done his job too comments but nothing has been prepared. well and he has to be nobbled. Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - The opposition The review report recommends the worst of all would be genuinely happy if the minister would say possible worlds. It does not even stand up against that the government will reject the recommendations the New Zealand system, in which the proposed in the report. Opposition members would Auditor-General at least gets to keep and be in cheer the minister if he were prepared to do that, charge of an auditing organisation. In the Victorian and I, for one, would be the first to congratulate him model the Auditor-General will be stuck in some and Mr Forwood. However, that is not what will small office in Parliament House or somewhere else happen. The list of critics will continue to grow. with a half dozen staff members and will be told that Every major newspaper will oppose the change and the auditing takes place down at Audit Victoria. already opposition to the proposals in the report has Mr Forwood knows this has never been done been expressed in editorial after editorial. Already anywhere else. prominent people in organisations and Auditors-General around the country are The proposition is inappropriate because by condemning the proposals. metaphorically cutting off the hands and legs of the Auditor-General it takes away the means by which The only person who is pushing this issue is the he carries out audits, which is essential to his bullyboy, Jeff Kennett. Government members are operating independence. That is the central problem. showing themselves to be jellybacks because they And if it were only the opposition saying that, one are not prepared to stand up and be counted. It could understand people saying they did not need would take only a number of people to go to the to take account of it, but I should have thought that Premier and say, 'Jeff, stop it, we're not interested in people such as the Honourable Graeme Weideman, this'. a former chairman of the Public Accounts and Estimates Committee, and the Honourable James The government has caucus meetings and all Guest-- government members have to do is go into their party room meetings and move a motion that the Hon. W. A. N. Hartigan - James would be report not be accepted. I am sure if Mr Forwood shattered by your giving him a boost. moved such a motion he would get support from members of the government backbench. For the first Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - I do not think so. time government members should stand up to this In conclusion, this will be an ongoing debate because bullyboy Premier. AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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The motion does not directly attack government, it table, I propose an amendment to the motion moved simply supports the ongoing independence of the by Mr Theophanous. I move: Auditor-General, both operationally and otherwise. I urge all honourable members to think carefully That all the words and expressions after 'That this about it and support it. house -' be omitted with the view of inserting in place thereof: Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Minister for Finance) - '(a) recognises the work of the Auditor-General in At the outset I state that I am in fierce agreement discharging his responsibilities in respect of with a number of comments made by financial and perfonnance audits; Mr Theophanous. I agree that this is an important debate. I agree wholeheartedly that it is likely to (b) notes that the Audit Act review forms part of continue, and I suspect that it will become a big Victoria's commitments under national topic in the future. I agree that the role of the competition policy; and Auditor-General is crucial and that we need an (c) acknowledges that the government has received the independent and effective watchdog. Beyond that review report and is considering it in detail with the issues Mr Theophanous used to support his case the intent that any legislative changes be prepared led him to draw conclusions that no-one is entitled for the spring parliamentary sittings'. to draw given the facts of the case. I intend to speak to the amendment rather than to Mr Theophanous implied that the government has the motion because I will then be referring to the some sort of interest in a weak audit process. facts of the case rather than to the maunderings of Nothing could be further from the truth. There is no Mr Theophanous. Firstly, the government is saying advantage in a weak audit process, and it is in the that it recognises the work of the Auditor-General in best interests of the government for it to serve with a discharging his responsibilities in respect of both strong and vigorous audit process. financial and performance audits. I should have thought it was a fairly hard argument to sustain that The audit review is in no way designed as a the Kennett government would be opposed to the challenge to the Auditor-General or his office and conduct of financial and performance audits given the notion that this is somehow a clever device to that the role of the Auditor-General has been force Ches Baragwanath to resign is just stupid. I am expanded under the current administration, and that on record as demonstrating on a number of recognition of the work undertaken by occasions my support and that of the government Mr Baragwanath and his team is not a new position for not only Mr Baragwanath but also for his office. for anyone on this side of the house to take. I can go This is an important debate and I do not want to get back over my career in this place and point out involved in semantics. I do not want to debate with instance after instance where I am on the public Mr Theophanous the question of compromise or the record as supporting the work undertaken by the question of whether the Auditor-General is being Auditor-General. forced to resign because the review process in which we are engaged right now is too important. I simply repeat the point I made at the outset, that there is no advantage for any of the government in Hon. T. C. Theophanous - You know he is having a weak audit process. The notion that going to resign, don't you? somehow we should be nobbling the Auditor-General because he had the temerity to be Hon. R. M. HALLAM - No, I do not know that, critical just misses the entire point of the audit and I do not believe it. process. This review has nothing to do with that part of the Auditor-General's role. The government is Hon. T. C. Theophanous - Why don't you pick prepared to put on the public record again that it up the phone and talk to him? You are responsible recognises the work undertaken by the for the act, why don't you speak to him and ask him Auditor-General. what he thinks about it? The second issue is that the Audit Act review forms The PRESIDENT - Order! Mr Theophanous has part of Victoria's commitment under the national made his point. competition policy. I note that Mr Theophanous was careful not to go to that issue, and I understand Hon. R. M. HALLAM - Given the importance of why - that is, because there is some sensitivity the debate and the need to get some facts on the involved in it. The facts are that at the Council of AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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Australian Governments (COAG), Victoria and all introduced in the spring sessional period. Every the other states made commitments in respect of member of this chamber will have an opportunity to competition across the spectrum of government. debate the changes that are ultimately determined. With the exception of Mr Theophanous, no-one that On that basis, this debate is premature. I am aware of has argued that the commitments should apply to everyone apart from the I do not intend to be drawn on which components of Auditor-General. Apparently Mr Theophanous the report the government will endorse because that thinks we should write one rule for everyone except process has not been completed. Not only has it not the Auditor-General. been completed, it has not commenced! On 24 April the Premier announced in a press release that further Hon. T. C. Theophanous - That is not true, and submissions would be welcomed. Mr Theophanous you know it. made some comments about the membership of the review team. I should let those comments go Hon. R. M. HALLAM - I am pleased for through to the keeper because he did a despicable Mr Theophanous to make that comment. In the thing, although it was not out of character. He recent past he has argued the merits of competition would be the only Victorian who would see the need in this chamber, yet today he is prepared to say that to challenge the standing of the three members of competition will curtail the role of the the review team. I do not need to protect them A udi tor-General. because their reputations are beyond doubt, but for Mr Theophanous to suggest that they were stooges Mr Theophanous also challenged government is quite despicable. members to show some courage. I do not think government members should be charged with a I noted that Mr Theophanous did not mention failure to show courage. The Kennett government is Professor Rod Maddock in that context, but he did the most reformist government in the history of the describe all three members as stooges and he went state, and history will show it certainly does not lack on at length to demonstrate there was some sort of courage. Any change the government makes is likely conflict of interest. Each of those three individuals to raise new hackles, and it is not surprising that have enormous standing in the community. As I changes mooted in respect of the Auditor-General said, I do not need to defend them because their would have the same effect. However, I deny reputations do that for them, but only those with absolutely that the policy position being pursued in some sort of nefarious intent would seek to belittle respect of the Auditor-General is akin to a lack of the outcome of the review based upon the courage because I believe the reverse is true. membership of the review team.

Mr Theophanous accused government members of Hon. W. A. N. Hartigan - He would rather having a lack of courage. I make the point that in attack them than the argument! many cases the real courage is in doing what one believes to be right notwithstanding the attitude Hon. R. M. HALLAM - I suspect that was the taken by a whole range of public commentators who only basis upon which Mr Theophanous sought to do not have their butts on the line, as do members of have a go at the outcome. I make the point again that the government. the honourable member will have a chance to debate this matter if and when the legislation is introduced It is relatively easy to throw a comment in from in the spring sessional period. outside when you do not have to stand the heat. Members of the government are responsible for the The Premier has done nothing more than reassure reform agenda and they are required to see it the Victorian community on the issues he believed through to full-term, whatever policy decisions will were important to clarify at the time. The Premier ultimately be made. said the report will be considered in detail, submissions will be sought and, presumably, In respect of the review report, the government has legislation will be introduced in September. In the given a commitment to deal with the report in detail. meantime, to put those major issues at rest, the It will invite submissions from those who are Premier has said that the government will enhance interested in the outcome, and they will include the the independence of the Auditor-General by making Auditor-General and many of the commentators him an independent officer of the Parliament. He quoted by Mr Theophanous. If there is to be a also said the Auditor-General's budget will be change, it will be in the form of legislation transferred to Parliament and that the AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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Auditor-General will always have the ability to consistent with the charge being made in the current bypass the tender process but he will have to report context. to Parliament if he does. The transparency of the process is guaranteed in advance. The turning point is the question of competition. The government says it is not unreasonable to ask the It is also important to note that, whatever else Auditor-General to be subject to competition. It is happens, the Auditor-General will remain not WlIeasonable to suggest that there could be responsible for the Signature and presentation of efficiencies in his area that we need to capture. All reports to Parliament. The notion of the government the opposition has offered is the comment that if having a tame cat sitting behind a desk locked away competition is introduced it will destroy the in some dingy corner is incredibly naive. We are independence of the Auditor-General's Office. Not talking about increasing the independence of the even the Auditor-General agrees with that synopsis. Auditor-General. The Premier also commented in the press release that the government has not Hon. D. A. Nardella - How do you know? determined the final set of responses, that it will undertake consultation and that any necessary Hon. R. M. HALLAM - Because the legislation will be introduced during the spring Auditor-General already uses outside auditors. The sessional period. I make the point again that this is fact that he chooses various firms to do auditing not an attempt to nobble the Auditor-General. work is a manifestation of the competition which he is already practising and which the opposition says Hon. T. C. Theophanous - It is! will destroy him.

Hon. R. M. HALLAM - It is not and I resent that Hon. T. C. Theophanous - He is already imputation. It is not the government's intent to have practising competition? the Auditor-General resign his position. It is not a challenge to his efficiency and it is not that he has Hon. R. M. HALLAM - Yes. done his job too well. At the end of the process there is one fundamental difference between the position Hon. T. C. Theophanous - Why are you doing adopted by the government and that adopted by the this then? opposition. The government does not see that competition of itself is necessarily incompatible with Hon. R. M. HALLAM - Mr Theophanous's the independence of the Auditor-General. The motion is illogical and premature. No change will inference here is that because the government is occur without a change to the legislation; and of determined to introduce competition at every tier of course, the opposition will get a chance to comment endeavour, including the Auditor-General, that is at that time. somehow an attack on his independence. That is where we agree to differ, and it is on that basis that I I look forward to honourable members taking up the say to Mr Theophanous that he should hold his opportunity of being involved in the review process. horses. He will have a chance to debate this if or If they feel strongly about it I invite them and those when legislation turns up conveying the outcome of outside Parliament to put submissions to the the review. Premier, because under the competition model it is his responsibility to undertake the review. It is not a In anticipation of that debate Mr Theophanous matter for the Minister for Finance. should think about the circumstances that currently apply. If he wants to argue that competition of itself I look forward to a vigorous debate when the will destroy the independence of the legislation comes before this place, but I make the Auditor-General's Office he might explain why the following point in advance. I know Ches Auditor-General currently uses external agencies for Baragwanath personally and have a good much of his work. In effect, what he is arguing is not relationship with him. He is extremely professional, too far removed from what the Auditor-General but that is not to suggest that his role cannot be already employs when auditing the hospital system improved or that he is infallible. The government is and local government. I remind Mr Theophanous saying that the rules it is applying to every other that it was under this government that the field of endeavour should also apply to him. The Auditor-General was introduced as the auditor for review panel has made recommendations that are local government. I do not remember too many now sitting on the Premier's desk for his people arguing against that. That is hardly consideration, and legislation will be introduced if AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

Wednesday, 30 April 1997 COUNCIL 521 necessary. The opposition's motion is illogical and That second lot of criticism goes to performance premature. I urge honourable members to support audits. Those honourable members who have served the amendment. on parliamentary committees or who take an interest in this area know that audits can be divided into Hon. B. T. PULLEN (Melbourne) - The Minister financial and performance audits. By far the most for Finance's response was disappointing. He did important in examining the activities of government not give the answer I had hoped for. Despite some of are performance audits. Section 16 of the Audit Act the cross talk, most honourable members realise this states: is a serious issue. Proper audits affect the way 0) Subject to sub-section (7), the Auditor-General may governments function and the confidence the people conduct any audit he or she considers necessary to of Victoria have in government administration, as determine whether an authority is achieving its well as ensuring that there are checks and balances objectives effectively and doing so economically and that the system is protected against inefficiency and efficiently and in compliance with all relevant and corruption. acts. The Office of the Auditor-General is important, That does not occur within the private sector. In fact, which the Audit Act recognises. The few private sector firms are ever asked to engage in Auditor-General can be removed from office only that activity. It is too challenging for a board of for reasons of due cause, a statement of which must directors to have someone examine whether their be presented to both houses. There must be an company is carrying out its functions in terms of its interim period between the motion being presented stated policies and the appropriate local, state and and its being passed by both houses. The Audit Act commonwealth government rules and regulations. contains strong powers that are designed to protect That is not the type of audit directors of private the office so the occupant can carry out his functions companies seek or encourage. In fact, one is hard and duties without fear or favour. Section 14 ensures pressed to find private sector firms that have that that people being examined by the Auditor-General expertise. must produce documents and answer lawful questions truthfully and honestly. Penalties are The Office of the Auditor-General has a reputation provided for their non-compliance. for auditing procedures of the highest standard. It has an outstanding place in the Australian auditing At this juncture much criticism has been levelled at system. The office is a repOSitory of expertise. As a the government and the Premier for commissioning result, special performance reports have been made and accepting the Review of the Audit Act 1994 to Parliament that are of a different kind to the report, which was announced in the Premier's press normal financial audits. Ibis is because they look at release of 24 April 1997: not only whether government programs are being carried out efficiently based on normal financial and The government accepts the committee's view that all accounting standards but also whether they are financial and performance audits should be tendered meeting their objectives and the requirements of the out over a staged period. appropriate legislation.

The public sector audit office will be separated from the To suggest that those types of audits can be Auditor-General's office and will compete for audit contracted out and that a Great Wall of Otina can be work with the private sector. built between the Office of the Auditor-General and the public sector is foolish. Why would the The Premier was also reported in radio interviews as committee recommend such nonsense? One must saying he accepted the recommendations of the look at the limitations of the terms of reference. If report. The criticisms made by the public and a you take away the political and ideological number of informed commentators can be put under motivation for the change, you can see it is a two headings. The first is political criticism, meaning thoughtless implementation of competition policy. that the impetus for the change is political and designed to protect the government against The terms of reference in the executive summary of criticism. There are also those who say the proposed the review report make it clear that the reviewers change is in its essence ill-informed and ill-thought were reporting in the narrow terms of whether there out, does not stand up to close scrutiny and will not was a need to implement competition policy because provide good outcomes. there was restrictive legislation that prevented competition. They did not step back and conduct a AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

522 COUNCIL Wednesday, 30 April 1997 performance audit in terms of the outcomes; they Hon. B. T. PULLEN - One-third of the looked at it in the narrow terms of whether they committee which recommends who should be could implement competition policy. Furthermore, successful tenderers is composed of representatives they took the view that the onus was to show of the Auditor-General's Office. Moreover, he can competition policy could not be implemented; it was change the process only if he can show there are not to show there was something wrong and that it exceptional reasons in the public interest to do so, would be beneficial to implement competition and that would occur in rare cases. That is the policy. That is clearly stated in the report. The report expression used in the report. basically expresses an ideology of change rather than showing any reason why there should be an Hon. W. A. N. Hartigan interjected. improvement. TIUs is a classic case of if something isn't broken, don't fix it. No-one has produced any Hon. B. T. PULLEN - I do not anticipate much evidence to show what is failing and what needs to enlightenment from your speech, Mr Hartigan, but I be fixed. There is no connection to show why hope you give it. An additional point I make about moving to competition policy will either fix the contracting out under the segmented Audit Victoria situation or make an improvement. process is that 75 per cent of audits are already contracted out, but the important performance The report describes three alternatives: the audits are controlled by the staff of the integrated system we have now; a totally Auditor-General's Office. decentralised system, which it dismisses, as anybody would; and their segmented - preferred - system. The Auditor-General is on record as saying that The segmented system puts the Auditor-General to because of the conflict-of-interest circumstances one side and a new entity, Audit Victoria, is created many firms now have, it is increasingly difficult for and a process established for the letting of contracts him to find firms that are not already engaged in to conduct audits to the private sector. The some activity for the state government, and that Auditor-General would have a limited opportunity would compromise the audit process. Yet both the to intervene in that process and would not be conflict-of-interest issue and the lack of expertise hands-on in the sense that if, during the course of an outside the Auditor-General's Office to conduct audit, matters are discovered that require a different performance audits are being ignored in the move to direction he could not pursue it. All that must be set 100 per cent contracting out. out to begin with in the original contracts in the name of competition. It is a formula for disaster and The report attempts to set out criteria for why it it is an incredibly inflexible way to do the job makes its recommendations. At page 6, under Victorians want done - that is, performance audits. 'Benefit/costs conclusions', it indicates that: Such audits protect Victoria's interests by seeing that the government is acting efficiently and effectively. The alternative arrangements proposed seek to capture The Auditor-General will be left with minuscule the benefits which the committee considers may be powers. generated through greater use of competition. In this case, the committee considers that this is in the public I turn to the appropriate section of the report, which interest. I received only yesterday - and then only after some effort - which says that the You would expect some support for that generalised Auditor-General can intervene only in certain cases comment - which is what the whole report hangs and he must demonstrate why he should intervene. on. The most lengthy discussion is at page 46 of the The onus is on him to demonstrate that it is in the report and continues for about three pages. That public interest for him to intervene in a contract and again provides no evidence of why this would better it is up to him to be the exception to the rule. serve the public interest. It indicates that the Auditor-General would have only a one-third input Hon. Bill Forwood - But he is involved in the and that: tender process. ... the Auditor-General would have the discretion to Hon. B. T. PULL EN - No, he can be involved reject the nomination of the tender panel on public only in changing the tender process. interest grounds and award a tender to another bidder ... Hon. Bill Forwood - He is the chair, if he wants to be, of the tender process. That is an exception. It further states: AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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The Auditor-General would report annually to the Hon. B. T. PULLEN -It was a long time coming. Public Accounts and Estimates Committee on each The tendering occurred during the period of office of occasion where a recommended tenderer was rejected, a former minister and permanent head who were or on any rare occasions where the Auditor-General felt obviously shifted so that the government could there was a compelling and extreme public interest cover it up. I refer to another critical report on major reason not to use the tender process. projects that found feasibility studies were not conducted. There was also a report into child It says it would be a rare occasion for the protection, in which the Auditor-General found Auditor-General to avoid the tender process; yet the there was abuse of the system. efficiency and expertise in conducting performance audits resides not in the private sector but in the In an article in the business section of the Age of Auditor-General's Office and has developed since 28 April, Mr AIan Kohler makes a point which lends 1991 through its system - the Victorian considerable credibility to the suspicions people performance audit methodology. Now the have about why the Auditor-General was becoming Auditor-General is being denied the ability to audit too difficult for the Premier to handle. Mr Kohler in that way. refers to the Auditor-General's ability to effectively criticise the government. He says the telling example The other view which has been put forward and is the ambulance dispatch situation. He says also: which has some credibility is that, as well as being inappropriate - that is why people who are aware ... what really cooked Ches Baragwanath's goose was of the importance of the process are criticising it­ his present performance audit work schedule, there is a clear indication that this changed published in the latest annual report. performance auditing is politically motivated. He lists what the Auditor-General was intending to A structural change to remove a nuisance is not an do in future: unfamiliar methodology and has been applied to others associated with this government. What is It goes like this: case-mix funding of public hospitals; being proposed for the Auditor-General happened Schools of the Future; management of the gaming also to the former DPP, Mr Bongiorno, and to the industry - role of the Victorian Casino and Gaming former Equal Opportunity Commissioner, Moira AuthOrity; child care and kindergartens; public Rayner. When people criticise the government, its transport reform; police customer service strategy; methodology in dealing with them is to restructure privatisation of government business entetprises; them out of the process. The government has not outsourcing in the public sector. been able to find reasons to support dismissing the people concerned because they are acting, and As AIan Kohler indicates: clearly have been seen to be acting, in the public interest. Therefore the government has restructured It was, with the benefit of hindsight, a suicide note. them out of the process. There is a profound suspicion in the minds of members of the It was just that, in the sense that the Auditor-General community that that is what underlies the current honestly announced to a government presided over proposals: the Auditor-General has become too by the Premier that he intended examining those difficult for the government to handle and therefore matters effectively by using performance audits. the government is proposing to restructure him out What has happened gives considerable weight to the of the process. view that, as well as being driven by the mindless ideology of using competition policy in totally Performance audits are an important aspect of the inappropriate areas that could wreck the balance of proposed changes. Recently Mr Baragwanath the separation of powers between the executive and produced a report on a topical subject. The report Parliament and the checks of the Auditor-General, into ambulance service contracts showed, at least, the proposed change is politically motivated. The gross inefficiencies, and perhaps corruption, in the structurally motivated change is akin to that tendering process. The methodology available was underlying the removal of the former Equal that of performance audits. Opportunity Commissioner or the former DPP, who was also an independent person and had the Hon. Bill Forwood - At the request of the courage to suggest that prosecutions might be minister! launched against the Premier or others in the cabinet who were not performing as they should. That was AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

524 COUNCIL Wednesday, 30 April 1997 an audacious thing to do, and the punishment was accepts the report. In the press release the Premier to force the structural change that removed the says: person from the system. The government accepts the committee's view that all What is happening with the Auditor-General is part financial and performance audits should be tendered of a pattern. I believe many members of the out over a staged period. government are uncomfortable with the lack of detailed credibility and the excessive application of That is exactly the point I am making: the reference competitive policy to be used as an excuse, a trigger to both the financial and performance audits is an or a mechanism for changing something that is indication of the incredible stupidity and danger in patently working extremely well in the Australian the situation. To suggest by the amendment that it is audit scene. an open question is to suggest that the house will overturn by motion a pronouncement already made Although Mr Kohler makes the first point well, I by the Premier. make a couple of points that have become a little lost in some of the commentaries. The analogy with the The press release also says the public sector audit New Zealand system breaks down completely office will be separated from the Auditor-General's because in the New Zealand model only the Office and will compete for audit work with the financial audits are being transferred out. The private sector. Members of the opposition are being performance audits remain entirely within the invited by the Minister for Finance to vote for his province of the Auditor-General and can be amendment. He is inviting us to support something developed with the existing expertise. It is a slide in which has already been pre-empted by a press logic to try to use the excuse that Victoria will be release of the Premier and statements which have following another model that works because the gone beyond the press release in interviews the model proposed for Victoria is radically different Premier has given to the press and which are now a from the New Zealand model. matter of public record. It is a false attempt to deflect a motion dearly aimed at giving this house the The performance audits of the government - that is, opportunity to protect the important office of the of the quality of the performance of government Auditor-General. departments - and their role in preventing corruption and inefficiency are the absolutely critical As has been said by Mr Theophanous, many audits. Since it was introduced in 1991 by the former members of the government, induding ministers, Labor government the development of that expertise have made a point of defending the integrity of the has been considerable. It has been acknowledged as office of the Auditor-General when it suited them, such around Australia; it has been studied by and is and it is disappointing that those people are now a model for other public performance audits. The proving they are incapable of stepping away from government set terms of reference which meant that the Premier's party line and the ideology promoting the panel conducting the competition review of the this change. Audit Act could not fail to come up with a narrow perspective. The device is being exposed in this Hon. BILL FORWOOD (Templestowe) - I house today and in the public arena. welcome the opportunity to support wholeheartedly the amendment moved by the Minister for Finance Mr Hallam's amendment, which is an attempt to that this house: deflect the impact of Mr Theophanous's motion, (a) recognises the work of the Auditor-General in contradicts the statements made by the Premier both discharging his responsibilities in respect of in his interviews on the subject and in his press financial and performance audits; release. Mr Hallam attempts to suggest that the matter will come back to Parliament in the fullness (b) notes that the Audit Act review forms part of of time. He says the government is considering the Victoria's commitments under national report of the review panel in detail and legislative competition policy; and changes will be considered during the spring session (c) acknowledges that the government has received the of Parliament. He asks: why should we worry? review report and is considering it in detail with the intent that any legislative changes be prepared The Premier has indicated in interviews reported in for the spring parliamentary sittings. all the major media and twice in the press release, which was passed around during the debate, that he AUDITOR-GE~ERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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Before proceeding to the amendment I shall pick up contestability. Honourable members will have heard two points Mr Pullen raised. He suggested that an me speak about competition policy reform, and I article by AIan Kohler ran the line that what cooked have been on the record consistently supporting Mr Baragwanath's goose was the future program of both an independent Auditor-General and performance reviews. That is nonsense, as anybody competition policy. The problem for who turns to the review will see, because page 6 Mr Theophanous and his colleagues and the Age is states: that they believe those two issues are not compatible. I quote Professor Maddock at page 41 of The Auditor-General would retain discretion in the his review: choice of the auditing program. The committee considers that, while the operational It makes a nonsense of Mr Pullen's claim that the independence of the Auditor-General is of the highest review is about nobbling the Auditor-General importance, this is compatible with competitive because of his program. Under Maddock he still arrangements in audit. controls the audit program. The second nonsense Mr Pullen tried to run was somehow to interpret the The recommendations of the Maddock review words of paragraph (c) of the amendment in a way enhance the independence of the Auditor-General that is inconsistent with the Premier's own press specifically by making him an officer of the release. The press release states: Parliament and by bringing his budget over into the parliamentary budget at the same time as The Premier said that the government was still contestability is brought in - and this is a theme I considering the recommendations in detail and would will return to again in the course of my contribution. consult with the review committee over the Auditor-General before deciding on a final response to I shall now deal with the amendment in some detail. the report. Paragraph (a) states:

He then says that following those consultations the ... recognises the work of the Auditor-General in government will consider introducing legislation in discharging his responsibilities in respect of financial the spring session of Parliament. That does not seem and performance audits; to me to be substantially different to the wording of paragraph (c) of the amendment which suggests What are those responsibilities? Section 8 of the 'that any legislative changes be prepared for the Audit Act deals with the audit of authorities and spring parliamentary sittings'. Frankly, I do not provides: know where Mr Pullen is coming from. The financial statements of each authority must from I welcome the opportunity to make my own position time to time and at least once in each year be audited. perfectly clear, particularly after Mr Theophanous's usual dose of ranting and raving, verbal distortions, Section 15 states: illogical contortions and tendentious and specious argument. Despite the attempts of some, including The Auditor-General must cause a copy of each report Mr Theophanous and some members of the media to under sub-section (1) to be transmitted to each House suggest otherwise, my position has been clear and of Parliament. consistent for years. It has been consistent from well before the competition policy review of the auditor The Auditor-General is responsible for the audits was even mooted. I support an independent and then reports to Parliament. Section 16 deals with Auditor-General, as I always have, and as does the performance audits and provides: Maddock review, which states at page 4 that it supports an independent Auditor-General: .. , the Auditor-General may conduct any audit he or she considers necessary to determine whether an ... in full control of the audit program. authority is achieving its objectives effectively and doing so economically, efficiently and in compliance I also support as I always have and again as does the with all relevant Acts. Maddock review, competition policy reforms and contestability. One could go back through many of They are the responsibilities. Paragraph (a) of the my contributions in this place over the past five minister's amendment acknowledges the work that years and find that I have spoken about is done. As Professor Maddock points out at page 83 AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

526 COUNCIL Wednesday, 30 April 1997 of his review, the annual report of the Victorian In my opinion, ... the Auditor-General has achieved his Auditor-General: objectives effectively and done so economically and efficiently . ... identifies audit responsibilities comprising responsibility for 547 entities: The report also pointed out that the office was not perfect. The two recommendations at page 1 of the the Parliament and the Parliamentary Construction report state: Authority; Areas which require improvement are: 8 departments and 7 independent budget sector efficiency; where planning is often late and agencies; insufficient use is made of technological solutions; and 139 public bodies; customer service; which is not, in my view, as 35 educational institutions including universities; good as in the private sector where competition for clients is intense. 106 hospitals, state-funded nursing homes and That is not meant to be a criticism of the ambulance services; Auditor-General per se. The report says that the Auditor-General does his job objectively and 14 superannuation funds; efficiently, but that it can be done better. One way of doing that is to have better auditing outcomes when 108 companies and joint ventures; there is intense competition. Talbot gives the Auditor-General a tick but also notes areas that can 78 municipal councils; be improved.

10 libraries; and The key findings at page 17 of the Talbot report include a finding that planning is often late, and the 40 water authorities. key recommendations include advancing the planning process, looking to spread work That is the scope of the work recognised as being throughout the area and smooth the workload, done by the Auditor-General when he discharges his streamlining the process that culminates in the responsibilities for both financial and performance ministerial report, and introducing internal cost audits. comparisons for similar types of audit. In his contribution Mr Theophanous talked about Included in the key recommendations at page 33 of both the Victorian Commission of Audit and the Talbot are that the Auditor-General could: most recent performance audit by Price Waterhouse. He quoted Saul Eslake, the former executive officer Move towards agreeing high level performance criteria of the Commission of Audit. Page 208 of the report with auditees and developing measurable sub-criteria. of the Victorian Commission of Audit states: Audit should be more even-handed and less driven by Parliament needs to have a single voice providing an 'problem areas'. opinion to it on the hundreds of public sector reporting entities- Encourage increased collection and reporting of performance information by government departments, I have just run through those - agencies and programs. That voice's independence needs to be protected (as it There is no doubt that the Auditor-General's work is is) by a special relationship with Parliament which done efficiently and effectively, but equally there is precludes the government from inhibiting it in any way. room for improvement. I turn to paragraph (b) of the minister's amendment, which states: That is what Professor Maddock's review suggests. It is nonsense for it to be suggested otherwise. The notes that the Audit Act Review forms part of Victoria's Talbot report states that the Auditor-General's office commitments under national competition policy. was fulfilling its functions in a satisfactory manner: AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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As the minister pointed out, this was not an area .,. The changing role of Government was recognised by that the Labor Party has dealt with in any manner. the previous Commonwealth Minister for Finance, Kim Members would be aware of the Hilmer process Beazley, in 1994, noting that: which was run by the Labor Party under Paul Government has traditionally been seen as a Keating and which was designed as part of a process provider of services. Today government can also to make Australia internationally competitive. It be about purchasing services on behalf of its forms part of Australia's low inflation regime. clients, and it will look increasingly to buy from the most efficient supplier, whether from within At page 3 of a guide to national competition policy the public sector or externally ... As our experience issued by the Department of Premier and Cabinet with contracting ... grows, there is likely to be and entitled Competition Policy, Professor Hilmer is continuing pressure to extend contestability within quoted as saying: the public sector as a device to improve efficiency and, at the least, maintain the effectiveness and Competition provides the spur for businesses to client focus of program delivery. improve their performance, develop new products and respond to changing circwnstances. Competition offers At paragraph 4.1.1 on page 24, Maddock deals in the promise of lower prices and improved choice for some length with how competition may improve customers and greater efficiency, higher economic outcomes. I shall not go through it in detail, but it growth and increased employment opportunities for indicates how competition may improve outcomes the economy as a whole. in this sector. I invite honourable members to read it. That brings me to paragraph (c) of the minister's Hilmer produced a six-point recommendation amendment, which states: structure. The headings were anti-competitive conduct, statutory restrictions on competition, acknowledges that the government has received the structural monopolies, monopoly pricing, review report and is considering it in detail with the government business advantages and natural intent that any legislative changes be prepared for the monopolies. The issue that concerns us today is spring parliamentary sittings. statutory restrictions on competition. In relation to that, Hilmer is quoted in the guide as stating: The review report is a weighty document, the contents of which give a significant idea of what is ... regulatory restrictions (on competition) pervade the involved. It begins with the executive summary, economy, ranging from government-sanctioned findings and recommendations, which are now monopolies to licensing regimes and various known to members. It also deals with the purpose of restrictions on particular competitive conduct. the review and the administrative arrangements. Point 1.2.1 at page 15 deals with the process, and The proposed remedy as reported in the guide is: states:

In order to reduce regulatory restrictions on The review has been undertaken in accordance with the competition in the Australian economy, the Hilmer semi-public review model in the government's report proposed that governments should adopt the guidelines for conduct of legislative reviews for principle that there should be no regulatory restrictions restrictions on competition. on competition unless clearly demonstrated to be in the public interest, and should review all existing That is nothing new, it follows the existing model legislation for consistency with this principle. established by the government. It then states:

Paragraph (b) of the minister's amendment notes See chapter 4, section 5 for further details of the review that the Audit Act review forms part of that methodOlogy. commitment. We do not have to go into the dividend payments for compliance with the review I mention that in case paranoid opposition members program, we can merely note that we must adopt wish to see how and why it was done. The report the process in Victoria's interest. It is not only me then deals with the section on the independence of who is on record as talking about the benefits of the Auditor-General, giving both the findings and competition policy. At page 25 of his report the recommendations. I have already dealt with the Maddock states: objectives of the act, which follows. Section 4 of the report talks about competition and the government sector, how competition may improve outcomes, AUDITOR-GENERAL: Il'iDEPENDENCE

528 COUNCIL Wednesday, 30 April 1997 introducing competition in the delivery of maintains full control of the audit program and government services and ensuring that competition reporting to Parliament. delivers. It goes into the background of the national competition policy agreements, consequences of I also refer him to recommendation 6.8.1 on page 11, national competition policy, legislation review which states: under national competition policy, methodology for legislative review, assessing benefits and costs of That the government and the Parliament approve a legislation review and then the findings and competitive model for public sector external audit in recommendations. Victoria, with the following features: (a) the Auditor-General's office should be responsible The section, restrictions on competition, deals with for overall and specific audit priorities, audit government intervention, the market for audit methodology, overseeing the conduct of public services and talks about restrictions on competition. sector audits and reporting to Parliament. The review then goes into a consideration of alternative arrangements to achieve the objectives of And recommendation 6.8.1(h) on page 12 which the act without restrictions on competition. states:

One of the ironies is that the huge outcry audit reports will be signed off by the finn undertaking orchestrated by the Labor Party at the beginning of the audit and countersigned by the Auditor-General this debate was about whether individual auditees where the Auditor-General is satisfied that his or her could choose their own auditor. We do not hear guidelines for audit conduct have been followed. about that now because the independent committee in its review said it was not appropriate. It came up The joint meeting of the Australasian Council of with a different model and the other one sank Public Accounts Committees in Sydney, to which without a trace. Mr Theophanous referred, was an interesting experience for us all. At the meeting we debated a Hon. W. A. N. Hartigan interjected. motion that had been on the notice paper for two years. The Labor Party tried hard to pretend that the Hon. BILL FORWOOD - As Mr Hartigan says, motion being debated was specifically designed for it is the basis of much of the hysteria that is taking Victoria, but it was not. It had been around for a place and the motion the opposition has moved. long time. Section 7 of the review deals with implementation of the preferred option. It talks about changes and how I took issue with some of the Labor Party's tactics it should be done. This is a document worthy of then, and I should like to read from the transcript of study. It is a document which, as the Premier said, the Sydney meeting, as did Mr Theophanous. At will be considered and consulted about before a final that meeting, I said: response is delivered, and that response will come back to this place in due course. Some initial On the substantive issues contained in this motion, as responses have already been made, which is only members have seen by the way we have voted today, appropriate in a matter of such weight. we have no problems. However, there is another problem, which is that a totally independent and Finally I address specifically the issue separate review is being undertaken of Victoria's audit Mr Theophanous raised about the resolution of the legislation as it relates to competition policy. Australasian Council of Public Accounts Committees in Sydney last year which, I note in That review has wrongly, mischievously and for purely passing, is fully reproduced in appendix 6 of the political purposes been cast as an attack on the Maddock review. The problem for Mr Theophanous Auditor-General. It is not an attack on the is that there is no inconsistency between his quote in independence of the Victorian Auditor-General, as has paragraph (c) of his motion and the previously been made abundantly clear, not only by recommendations of the Maddock review. In myself in a speech in December last year but also by the particular I refer Mr Theophanous to page 4 where Premier and the Deputy Premier. This motion, rather Maddock says: than just being a continuing part of an evolution of thinking and practice in this area, is being used by Increased competition in audit services is consistent some as a political attack on Victoria, and there is no with maintaining the independence of the better example than the article in today's Age. Auditor-General, so long as the Auditor-General AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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As Mr Hartigan said, the Age article appeared that consider because regardless of the point from which day by chance! I shall finish with the point that there people approach the issue of the Auditor-General, I is absolutely no inconsistency between paragraph Cc) am sure that every honourable member agrees that of the motion moved by Mr Theophanous and the his role is critical. recommendations of the Maddock review. With those few words, I am delighted to support the Notwithstanding that there has been some coverage amendment and to await the spring sitting. in the press recently about the effectiveness of the Legislative Council, I believe it is a wonderful forum Hon. P AT POWER (Jika Jika) - I support the in which significant and substantive motions such as motion moved by Mr Theophanous and state my this can be debated. The paragraph (b) of the motion opposition to the amendment moved by the Minister moved by Mr Theophanous states: for Finance. The contribution of Mr Pullen set out as well as possible the concerns that exist on this side of acknowledged the validity of community concerns, and the house about matters affecting the those of prominent persons ... Auditor-General. The parts of the motion moved by Mr Theophanous with which I shall concern myself It is very difficult for the government to oppose that are: paragraph of the motion. It is important in debates of this kind for members to acknowledge that they (b) acknowledges the validity of community concerns, may disagree with the view that individuals, and those of prominent persons, about proposed organisations or a community may hold, but changes to the role of the Auditor-General; disagreeing of itself is not a licence to question the (c) endorses the motion passed by the Australasian validity of the views of those people. Council of Public Accounts Committees in February 1997 supporting the operational For a number of years, and especially in recent independence of the Auditor-General which states times, the current style and form of the that ''The Auditor-General should have the sole Auditor-General's office has enjoyed wide support power to carry out, or designate an auditor to in the community. Although many people may feel carry out, the external audit on all agencies which that the Auditor-General's operation ought to be are owned, controlled or substantially responsible conducted in a marginally different way, I do not to government"; and believe there are many people who could substantiate a view that the work done by the (d) believes that, in order to ensure the continuing total Auditor-General and his office is not absolutely independence and effectiveness of the critical to the notions of democratic government and Auditor-General and his office, the the Westminster system of accountability of the Auditor-General should maintain total discretion, elected government to the community at large. including operational discretion, over the conduct of audits of all Victorian government departments It is important for the house to understand that, and agencies. notwithstanding the views of those who I express some concern about paragraph (b) of the substantially disagree, the reason why people hold amendment moved by the Minister for Finance, the current structures of the Auditor-General so dear which states: is because they believe they will ensure that the elected government is subjected to fearless and (b) notes that the Audit Account Review forms part of independent scrutiny and that the reports and Victoria's commitments under National recommendations emanating from that work will be Competition Policy; and freely and fully available to the community so that (c) acknowledges that the government has received the an assessment can be made of the performance of review report and is considering it in detail with the government. the intent that any legislative changes be prepared for the spring parliamentary sittings. I know that during the years of the Labor government there were people in the Labor In previous debates I have said that there is a great movement who were anxious to use the work of the opportunity in this chamber to have relatively Auditor-General to establish whether the Labor fraternal debates in which the philosophical views of government was implementing the policies of the government and opposition members can be put ALP. Of course, there were other people, many of forward in a process of thrust and parry. I agree whom were on the opposition benches, who from a with Mr Theophanous that the motion today is as important a motion as the house might ever have to AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

530 COUNCil- Wednesday, 30 April 1997 different perspective were anxious to use the work and his office, the Auditor-General should maintain of the Auditor-General. total discretion, including operational discretion, over the conduct of audits of all Victorian government Historically, it is very difficult for members to argue departments and agencies. that the Auditor-General and his office have enjoyed anything other than broad support in the It is important that the opposition indicates its alarm community. I do not believe any member of this that the government is not prepared to support chamber, or the Auditor-General himself, would paragraph (d) of the motion. Paragraph (d) is contest the fact that there may be ways of improving unequivocal; it is black and white, in relation to the the work the Auditor-General carries out in the view of the opposition about the capacity and context of the current structure. independence of the Auditor-General and his office. In opposing paragraph (d) of the motion, the Paragraph (c) of Mr Theophanous's motion goes to government is giving currency to the concern that the motion passed in Sydney in February 1997 by the exists in Parliament, in the community and right Australasian Council of Public Accounts across Victoria that the moves proposed will Committees. I shall not concentrate on the role that undermine the total independence and effectiveness Mr Forwood might have played, but it is of the Auditor-General. extraordinarily important for honourable members to acknowledge that that council carried a resolution It is black and white. The motion calls for the which made an unequivocal and clear statement continuing independence and effectiveness of the about the operational independence of the Auditor-General, but the government will not Auditor-General. In part, the motion states: support it. There is no doubt what this house is debating and what the government is on about is The Auditor-General should have the sole power to removing the independence and undermining the carry out, or designate an auditor to carry out, the effectiveness of the Auditor-General. It can be seen external audit on all agencies which are owned, in no other way. If the government did not have that controlled or substantially responsible to the goal it would support the motion. I commend government '" Mr Theophanous for drafting a motion that is explicit in its support for the independence and It is reasonable for the argument to be put that the effectiveness of the Auditor-General and his office. resolution is inconsistent with and does not support the kind of moves that are proposed in the review of I now comment on the amendment moved by the the Audit Act. It is inconsistent with and does not Minister for Finance. Paragraph (b) states: support the comments contained in the Premier's press release of 24 April. . .. notes that the Audit Act review forms part of Victoria's commitments under national competition I agree with the comments made by policy. Mr Theophanous that during the years of the Labor government there were times when the Public The government has argued that compulsory Accounts and Estimates Committee, and especially competitive tendering in local government is the government members on that committee, were consistent with national competition policy. I say required to address some fairly difficult issues. I unequivocally that the opposition believes that is know the then opposition members of the committee nonsense; that is not what Hilmer and national were anxious to use the committee for the pwposes competition policy are about. I make that point to for which it was designed. I am, therefore, show the consistency with what is occurring with disappointed that the now government is not the Auditor-General. I do not believe a formal prepared to acknowledge that there is validity in the conversation with Hilmer would reveal that he community concerns relating to this matter. I am believes the independence and effectiveness of the disappointed that the government is not prepared to Auditor-General requires attention under national support the February 1997 resolution of the competition policy. Australasian Council of Public Accounts Committees. The motion moved by It is disappointing and an indication of its lack of Mr Theophanous also states: substantiating argument that the government should want to hang its actions on the peg of national ... in order to ensure the continuing and total competition policy when attacking the Office of the independence and effectiveness of the Auditor-General Auditor-General. Compulsory competitive AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPE;\/DENCE

Wednesday, 30 April 1997 COUNCIL 531 tendering is not consistent with the words or the Although there may be further consultation - I spirit of Hilmer on national competition policy. I have no doubt some people in the government are strongly believe national competition policy does prepared to consult on a without-prejudice basis­ not require that Auditors-General and their offices it is not possible to convince anyone that that is the should be treated and reconstructed in the way Premier's attitude. proposed. Paragraph (c) of the minister's amendment states: I move the following amendment to the amendment moved by the Minister for Finance: ... acknowledges that the government has received the review report and is considering it in detail with the Omit paragraphs (b) and (c) and insert- intent that any legislative changes be prepared for the (b) does not support any changes to the role or function spring parliamentary sittings. of the Auditor-General proposed by the Audit Act review which would compromise the I have more respect for the minister than to suggest Auditor-General's operational independence, that that is an untruth, but it is reasonable for the including his right to retain sole power to carry out opposition to argue that the Premier's press release or to designate another auditor to carry out of 24 April indicates that, although the minister may financial and perfonnance audits of all be prepared to do what is indicated in paragraph (c), government agencies. the Premier is not. I now base my comments on Mr Theophanous's Hon. Bill Forwood interjected. motion and the amendment on the amendment. I will comment on some of the recommendations in Hon. PAT POWER - The Premier's press release the executive summary of the review of the Audit may well be headed 'Initial responses', but it is naive Act. Under the heading 'Central Findings' on page 4 for Mr Forwood, who knows the Premier well, to one finding is that the retention of an independent think his statements are anything other than Auditor-General is an essential element of the decisions he has reached. The press release of Victorian parliamentary framework and 24 April states in part: Westminster system. I indicate my support, the support of the opposition and I believe that of the The government accepts the committee's view that all majority of the community for the words in the first financial and perfonnance audits should be tendered recommendation. As I have already indicated, the out ... capacity of the Auditor-General to be independent and to provide and publicly disclose fearless It is not possible to argue that that statement is an investigative reports - which has occurred during initial response. The Premier then says: the periods of both the Labor and conservative governments - has been found by most people to The public sector audit office will be separated from the be central to our Westminster system. Another Auditor-General's office- central finding in the executive summary of the review report at page 4 says: he does not say 'will give consideration to' - ... increased competition in audit services is consistent and will compete for audit work with the private with maintaining the independence of the sector '" Auditor-General ...

Preferred tenderers for audit work will be That is of significant concern to the opposition. It is recommended to the Auditor-General by tender panels not possible for there to be guarantees that are which will look to quality rather than cost as the prime consistent with the spirit of the first finding, which is: consideration in selecting tenderers. . .. the retention of an independent Auditor-General is It is true, as Mr Forwood interposes, that it says the an essential element of Victoria's parliamentary government: framework and the Westminster system.

... was still considering the recommendations of the It is not possible to give an unequivocal guarantee review in detail and would consult with the review that that will be met as a consequence of services committee and the Auditor-General before deciding on being subject to competition and market forces. a final response ... AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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Hon. R. M. Hallam interjected. believes its views may be affected by agendas or coloured by some involvement. Hon. PAT POWER - Yes, absolutely, and I am more than happy for my contribution to be made on Hon. R. M. Hallam interjected. the basis of us agreeing to disagree. I underscore my concern about that point by making a passing Hon. PAT POWER - That may well be true. reference to some of the outcomes competition has Nonetheless, at this time it is important for the produced in local government. All honourable Parliament to acknowledge the views of a range of members would agree that the quality and organisations, including a spokesperson from the availability of services have changed significantly as Australian Society of Certified Practising a consequence of local government being forcibly Accountants, an economist from Melbourne subjected to compulsory competitive tendering. That University, the Vice-President of the Law Institute of background is the basis for community concern Victoria, the Associate Professor of Law at the about whether the independence of the University of Melbourne, and so on. They have Auditor-General and his office can be guaranteed. expressed not just marginal concern about moves in Another central finding is: relation to the Auditor-General but alarm about the situation currently faced. All public sector audits should be made subject to a transparent tendering process ... I conclude my remarks by indicating my support for Mr Theophanous's well-constructed motion and my I have considerable concern about whether that goal opposition to the amendment moved by the minister is deliverable. At the moment there is controversy in and for the amendment moved in my name. the community about emergency services, which is an example to support my view. I do not doubt for Sitting suspended 12.59 p.m. until 2.02 p.m. one moment that the Minister for Finance would do everything he could to make public sector audits Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN (Geelong) - I subject to a transparent tendering process, but I have support the government's amendment. I consider concerns about that finding. Another central finding the proper management of government expenditure is: and taxpayers' funds to be very important. Regrettably the matter has been trivialised by the ... the public sector audit office should be separated motion of the Leader of the Opposition. One way to from the Auditor-General's Office and created as a judge that is to consider the childish further government business enterprise ... amendment of Mr Power to the minister's amendment which, to all intents and purposes, It is reasonable for people to be concerned about repeats an element of the opposition's original whether an institution operating as a business motion. I doubt the seriousness of the opposition's enterprise can address the core questions as the interest in the proper management, control and Auditor-General's Office currently does. Page 7 of review of government expenditure. the report contains the line: In trying to deal with the subject responsibly, The Auditor-General would retain the power to bypass I acknowledge that it is important that Parliament the tender process in rare cases of extreme public has a capacity to oversee the performance of interest. executive government, particularly the proper expenditure of taxpayers' money. I am less That is repeated at page 12: concerned about government policy, which is the prerogative of the government and the executive. (f) the Auditor-General will retain the power, rarely and Parliament should be in a position to assure itself in cases of extreme public interest, to bypass the about the way public money is administered, tender process. supervised and properly accounted for. There is enough data in the executive summary of the Audit Act review report for the concerns of the The position of the Auditor-General is only one opposition and the community to beowell founded. element to examine when considering that issue. Of Mr Theophanous supported his argument by concern to me is the fact that the Auditor-General's referring to the range of spokespersons in the job is made all the more difficult and therefore all community who had expressed alarm about some of the less likely to be successful because of the lack of the proposals. It may well be that the government good accounting, management and financial AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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information practices in most of the public sector. systems and supports necessary to run their TIlls government has tried very hard to introduce a businesses in the most efficient way. proper and satisfactory standard of accounting. It is moving towards an accrual system, which promises When discussing the need to make the government to make available to Parliament and to all those and the executive properly accountable to interested in government finance some Parliament, the idea of putting all the responsibility understanding of the processes by which taxpayers' on the Auditor-General and effectively saying that funds are administered. I refer specifically to proper his existence is sufficient to guarantee to the public budgeting, proper monthly review of performance that the government is being run efficiently, against objectives, proper systems for analysing effectively and with the best result, is not likely to be investments and returns on them, and a systems for genuinely honest. I have a lot of sympathy for the reporting as a matter of course on those issues. That difficulties the Auditor-General runs into. For involves introducing items like depreciation into example, there is no question that part of the current expenditure reporting. It relies heavily on problem with the ambulance system was the having a proper balance-sheet approach that complete lack of management and financial systems. provides Parliament and therefore the taxpayers That is reflected in the fact that the auditor looked at with some understanding of what is happening to it a number of times and did not make any adverse assets. The government is embarking upon a reports. It was not until the Minister for Health program that will achieve that. directed his attention to issues raised by the existing management of the structure that the I stress the value and importance of that in contrast Auditor-General had something to get his hands on. to the difficulty an auditor has in making a good That is an entirely unsatisfactory situation. hand of auditing a cash-based system. Many of the problems auditors faced in the past - this is not a I reiterate that it is in the government's best criticism of the auditor; it is a criticism of the interests - to say nothing of the Parliament's best system - was that a cash-based system of income interests - to have good management systems, and expenditure provided no structure for good financial controls, good auditing and good administrators to get a hold on what was actually reporting. More importantly, the audit function is happening. Auditors can examine cash-based less significant than the fact that the systems exist for systems and find that the amount of money the government and the managers of government allocated has been spent and take a snapshot look at businesses to run their businesses on a predicted and the process and the system to make sure the signing forecastable basis. I do not have any problems in authorities are in order, but it is extremely difficult principle with what the Premier is recommending. for them to go back over the history to determine the There are some areas I would like reviewed. intention, the element of management control that was exerted and whether the managements of public Hon. T. C. Theophanous - We know you sector organisations, government departments or haven't got any problems with it! government business enterpriseS have the capacity to manage income and expenditure on an orderly Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN - I said there are and predictable basis. some areas I would like reviewed, Mr Theophanous. If you listened for a while, you might learn When considering some of the problems faced by something - although I doubt it. I have a couple of the auditor and the government, I point out that the issues to raise about the recommendations. The idea current government's commitment to proper accrual of having the Auditor-General report to Parliament accounting is some indication of the importance it as an officer of the Parliament is good as a concept places on proper management systems being but I wonder exactly how the auditor will report to available to make government expenditure fully Parliament. Does that mean he will report annually accountable to Parliament and the people of as he sees fit or will he take advice from something Victoria. Frankly, the biggest advance we can make like the Public Accounts and Estimates Committee, in accountability is the adoption of sound particularly on performance reviews? My judgment accounting and management information systems. is that there is not a significant need for him to take Until we do so we are ignoring the greatest cause of much advice from the Public Accounts and inefficiency and poor performance in government Estimates Committee on the usual financial audits. because we are not equipping government officers They are reasonably straightforward and it is merely and government business enterprises with the a question of his selecting an audit group and doing it. AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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I have no problems with making the audit selection Although I do not have any great difficulties with competitive, particularly with the so-called what the Premier is suggesting after his first look at two-envelope system, in which you get two quotes, some of these issues, I would like the role of one for price and one for quality. That is a very good Parliament to be strengthened through a public idea. In reply to opposition comments, making audit accounts-type committee with the correct selected programs contestable will do nothing but improve representation. both the quality and the value of the audit. A government member interjected. However, until we reform the management and financial systems of the government the Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN - The right Auditor-General will be severely hamstrung. The chairman as well. suggestion that merely making him an officer of Parliament is in some miraculous way going to give Hon. D. A. Nardella - With some spine. him the capacity to track down bad performance or corrupt conduct is an unrealistic assessment. It Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN - I do not want too makes me wonder whether this is a facade put up by much spine but I think there is a role to be the opposition. considered in the coming review. I am sure the government will pay significant regard to the For example, the Auditor-General did not conduct relationship between Parliament and the an audit report and find there were 40 000 too many Auditor-General. I am not particularly interested in public servants. The Auditor-General does not do giving an Auditor-General authority and power that the sort of audit report that investigates the extends beyond the control of Parliament. The operating costs of the SEC. I am not critical of him; I general direction the government is proposing is am critical of the system which does not give him perfectly acceptable. Currently three-quarters of the the capacity to do the type of report which comes to audits are carried out by independent auditors. The that sort of conclusion. If the Auditor-General is to government is simply making it contestable and report on Parliament - I do not have a problem with seeking the submission of tenders with regard to that concept - I am concerned that it truly be a report both cost and quality. I cannot see any problem with on Parliament. that.

I do not believe in establishing bodies that are NOtwithstanding the attempt by honourable independent of Parliament; they must report to members opposite to suggest that the Parliament in a meaningful way but there must be Auditor-General will lose control through this some ability to supervise what they are doing. I do system, it is quite clear in both the report and indeed not want to get involved in the appointment of the press release issued by the Premier that the dictators - people who are given a wide range of intention is that the Auditor-General will have the responsibilities - because the evidence is very clear final say on the selection of any audit body. It is the that even if such people are politically impartial intention of the Premier and the government that when appointed they very soon become part of a that will be the Auditor-General's responsibility. group that is above Parliament and everybody else. Such responsibilities should not be allocated to I hope setting up an independent audit office will dictators; they should be undertaken by Parliament. lead the Auditor-General to look at some of the issues dealing with the accounting management If Parliament is to become responsible for the structure the government should have. I would like oversight of proper expenditure controls and proper him to take a greater role in suggesting both review of performance it must have a relationship government and government instrumentalities with an independent auditor that enables it to play should organise their accounts to enable the some part in the development of those issues. I say management of those organisations to carry out that with particular regard to performance audits proper performance reviews. The government is not which, by their very nature, require subjective trying to set up a system where are there are no rules assessments to be made. Indeed, very often they and where it is up to the Auditor-General to find out become more subjective because present accounting whether something adverse has happened. The systems lack the structure to identify the reason objective of good auditing is to ensure that the investment B, for example, produces a certain management of taxpayers' funds is properly carried outcome. out and to help people achieve that. AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

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This government has a keen interest in audits being I would have thought they would at least have to oversighted. In an expenditure of $15 billion the recognise that those concerns exist. The third part of reality is that there will be areas where mistakes the motion simply seeks to endorse a motion passed were made and there will almost certainly be areas by the Australasian Council of Public Accounts where corruption occurred. If the government puts Committees and seconded by Mr Forwood, which the right systems in place at the right time it will he did not make known during his contribution. I have the capacity to ensure that that becomes more invite Mr Forwood to indicate by way of interjection difficult and that the management team will be able that he supports the motion that was moved in to identify any defects early. That will give the Sydney. Does he support the motion he seconded in Auditor-General a much more constructive role in Sydney? Members can see by his silence that assisting government to do what it really wants to Mr Forwood will not answer the question even do - that is, use taxpayers' money as efficiently as though it is a simple one. possible, make the use of those moneys transparent, and ensure that the opportunities for corruption are Hon. Bill Forwood - You left the chamber when limited so far as practically possible. I was speaking. Read the Hansard! Read the Hansard!

Finally, I hope the Public Accounts and Estimates The PRESIDENT - Order! You can make your Committee starts putting great pressure on point once but not four times. departments to progress towards full accrual accounting. If the government does nothing else Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - This is a simple over the next year but put pressure on departments question, Mr President, and Mr Forwood is by asking them to demonstrate where they stand in condemned by his silence in refusing to answer it. their progress in accrual accounting it will have That is the third part of the opposition's motion. done more to enhance the capacity of the Finally, the fourth part of the opposition's motion Auditor-General and Parliament to supervise the ensures the: proper expenditure of taxpayers' money than any single thing that has been debated this afternoon. ... total independence and effectiveness of the Auditor-General ... I have a commitment to a parliamentary review of executive performance but I do not want to put it No government members have identified what under an independent auditor who is in fact particular part of that motion they take exception to. independent of Parliament and everybody else. I Government members have not had the courage to support the amendment proposed by the minister. It say why they disagree with the motion. They is a realistic amendment which reflects the fact that certainly have not had the courage to say, 'We're the government has made no decisions as yet as to going to allow a vote on this motion and put on the what will happen to the Auditor-General's Office record that we don't agree with it'. Instead, they try and that this house will have the opportunity to by some slimy and sleazy trick to move an debate the matter in due course. I recommend the amendment so that they will not have to vote on the amendment to the house. original motion.

Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS (Jika Jika) - Today This is all about the fact that Mr Forwood does not will be a fairly sad day because the government has want to be seen to be dividing on and voting against not been prepared to accept a motion which the a motion he seconded in Sydney at the meeting of opposition has carefully worked out. Point by point the Australasian Council of Public Accounts the motion asks the house to recognise that the Committees. To try to avoid that, Mr Forwood has Victorian Commission of Audit, the report of the done a backflip and has arranged for the Minister for review of the Auditor-General and other Finance to move an amendment that will avoid a performance audits of the Auditor-General have all division on the main motion. In a deceitful way the acknowledged that the current system of amendment proposes that the house: independent auditing has served Victoria well. I would have thought that was a simple statement of acknowledges that the government has received the fact. review report and is considering it in detail with the intent that any legislative changes be prepared for the The second point simply seeks to acknowledge the spring parliamentary sittings. validity of community concerns. Even if honourable members do not agree with the community concerns AUDITOR-GENERAL: INDEPENDENCE

536 COUNCIL Wednesday, 30 April 1997

That has already been considered and decided on by Bishop, Mr Lucl

The opposition wants government members to Ayes, 8 expose themselves by voting against an amendment Gould,Miss Nguyen,Mr that states that the house does not support changes Hogg, Mrs (Teller) Power, Mr that: MeLean,Mrs Pullen,Mr Nardella, Mr (Teller) Theophanous, Mr ... would compromise the Auditor-General's operational independence, including his right to retain Noes, 31 sole power to carry out or to designate another auditor Asher, Ms Hall,Mr to carry out financial and performance audits of all Ashrnan, Mr Hallarn,Mr government agencies. Atkinson, Mr (Teller) Hartigan, Mr Baxter, Mr Knowles,Mr That is the wording of the motion Mr Forwood Best, Mr Lueas,Mr seconded in Sydney and that is the wording he will Birrell, Mr Luekins, Mrs vote against in this house. He stands condemned, as Bishop, Mr Powell,Mrs does the government. Boardrnan, Mr Ross, Dr Brideson, Mr Smith, Mr House divided on Mr Power's amendment Cover,Mr Smith, Ms (members in favour vote no): Craige, Mr Stoney, Mr Davis, Mr D. MeL. Strong,Mr Ayes, 30 Davis, Mr P. R. Varty, Mrs Asher,Ms Hall,Mr de Fegely, Mr (Teller) Wells,Dr Ashrnan,Mr Hallam, Mr Forwood,Mr Wilding,Mrs Atkinson, Mr Hartigan, Mr Furletti,Mr Baxter,Mr Knowles,Mr Best, Mr (Teller) Lueas,Mr QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

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Pairs Healthstreams program Eren,Mr Katsambanis, Mr Walpoie, Mr Bowden,Mr Hon. P. R. HALL (Gippsland) - Will the Minister for Health advise the house of the progress Omission agreed to. towards the implementation of the Healthstreams initiatives that will provide more appropriate health Insertion agreed to. services to country Victoria?

Amended motion agreed to. Hon. R.I. KNOWLES (Minister for Health) - I thank Mr Hall for his question and for his keen interest in rural health matters. He is the chairman of the ministerial advisory committee on rural health. I QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE have previously advised the house of the government's development of the Healthstreams program as a way of providing increased flexibility Metropolitan Ambulance Service: in the way rural health providers are able to meet ministerial briefings the needs of their local communities. The government invited health providers to express an Hon. M. M. GOULD (Doutta Galla) - My interest in becoming involved in pilot projects under question is to the Minister for Health. In May 1996 the Healthstreams program. A significant number of did the minister have detailed information in expressions of interest were received and as a result briefings as to the seriousness of problems in the of the assessment five services have been approved. Metropolitan Ambulance Service which led him to decide to refer the matter to the Auditor-General The Yarram and District Health Service is well and, if so, why did he not provide detailed known to Mr Hall and has operated in many information to the Premier of the serious problems respects as a health stream - even within the in the MAS? If any advice was provided to the limitations of the existing funding streams. It was Premier, was it in a written form? If so, will the appropriate to formally bring the service into the minister table it? Healthstreams program. The Port Fairy Hospital, the Beaufort and Skipton Health Service, the Tallangatta Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Minister for Health) - I Hospital and the Mount Alexander Hospital at think there were four questions there and I shall try Castlemaine have developed detailed proposals. It is to address them. I have already told the house, as anticipated another 12 proposals will join the anyone who has cared to listen knows, that I Healthstreams program in the near future. There are personally became aware of issues involving the still further details to be worked out with those MAS through a briefing by the current executive health providers as to how they will use the officer of the ambulance service. I certainly conveyed increased flexibility to better meet the needs of their verbally the concerns that were raised with me. They local communities. I have no doubt these projects did not go to the extent that is covered by the will be successful and I look forward to advising the Auditor-General's report, and it was more a concern house of the developments in the Healthstreams about the result of the outsourcing of those contracts program. and concerns that it was difficult for the current CEO to understand why those decisions were made Workcover Update based on the information he still held about the MAS. Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS (Jika Jika) - Is the I conveyed that verbally to the Premier. I know the Minister responsible for Workcover aware that the Labor Party is keen to portray the Premier's position Victorian Workcover Authority has scrapped as something that it is not. During recent days the 200 000 copies of the April edition of Workcover Premier has been saying he was not aware of the Update, which included a notice to all employers depths of concern or the seriousness of the issues about their obligations to notify of any dangerous that were raised; nor was I in May last year. That has occurrences or near misses where persons were come about as a result of the Auditor-General's exposed to health or safety issues an~ that a fine of inquiry requested by me. $40000 applied for failure to notify? Will the minister advise the house whether he approved the scrapping or shredding of that issue of Workcover Update and will he confirm that the reason for QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

538 COUNcrr Wednesday, 30 April 1997 scrapping the publication was related to employers' Community Support Fund is contributing $60 000 to concerns about the new regulations? each plan and local contributions are topping that up by $20 000. Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Minister for Finance) - I shall address the issues in the sequence they were Hon. D. A. Nardella - What did you give put to me. No, I did not know about the alleged Gippsland West? scrapping of the Workcover Update and therefore it follows that the answer to the second question - I Hon. LOUISE ASHER - No, this was done well am sorry, what was the second question? before the Gippsland West by-election. Indeed, all three elements of the regional tourism strategy were Hon. T. C. Theophanous - Whether you put in place last year. The key features of the approved it. regional plans will be regional and industry ownership. The plans will be launched individually Hon. R. M. HALLAM - I did not know about it by me throughout the year. lbis is one of the most and so I did not approve it. What was the third exciting developments for regional tourism in question? country Victoria and I look forward to releasing further plans throughout the year. Hon. T. C. Theophanous - Obviously, you don't know the reason why it was scrapped, either! Intergraph: performance

Tourism: regional development plans Hon. D. A. NARDELLA (Melbourne North) - The Four Corners program which went to air last Hon. E. G. STONEY (Central Highlands) - Will Monday highlighted numerous teclmical difficulties the Minister for Tourism advise the house of the with the Intergraph dispatch system, particularly development of regional tourism plans in Victoria? relating to the system's software. Will the Minister for Health give an undertaking to rectify those Hon. LOUISE ASHER (Minister for Tourism) - I problems and will he indicate how much it is likely thank Mr Stoney for his ongoing interest in regional to cost? tourism and in the tourism plans currently being developed in country Victoria. The regional tourism Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Minister for Health) - I development plans are being compiled in 12 of did not see the Four Corners program and so I am 13 regions. lbis is one part of the government's unableto-- three-part strategy in its push to secure more regional tourism. Firstly, the government released Hon. T. C. Theophanous - You are not figures and a new regional survey last year which interested! for the first time showed the economic benefits of tourism in country Victoria. The second part of the Hon. R. I. KNOWLES - Unlike strategy was a regional campaign launched late last Mr Theophanous I am out most nights at meetings. I year involving television, cinemas and other advise Mr Nardella that the advice from the advertising. Metropolitan Ambulance Service is that the Intergraph system provides the best of the Hon. Pat Power - Did you know about it? computer-aided dispatch services and is enabling the service to operate at its best level for a five-year Hon. LOUISE ASHER - Yes. It advised people period. Whatever claims were made they were made in Adelaide, Sydney and Brisbane about tourism in in a historical context and are not applicable today. country Victoria. The third element of the government's push into country Victoria tourism Melbourne Airport: freight was the development of regional plans, to which Mr Stoney referred. Campaign committees have Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN (Geelong) - Will the been set up all over Victoria and extensive Minister for Industry, Science and Technology consultations have taken place in the industry. The inform the house of recent initiatives taken to purpose of the plans is to increase the improve the business success of Melbourne Airport? professionalism of tourism planning and marketing and to enable the regions to identify gaps in tourism Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (Minister for Industry, infrastructure, products or services. The total cost of Science and Technology) - I am pleased to advise the project is $960 000. Within each region the the house that a number of recent initiatives will QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

Wednesday, 30 April 1997 COUNCil. 539 substantially improve Melbourne Airport as a Science and Technology and I look forward to a freight destination, which is one of the key objects of comprehensive response, notwithstanding that he the state government. will not have the answer written down.

In particular, BGC Distribution Services - a Given that the government has been forced to world-wide company operating in 60 countries with upwardly revise the state's unemployment forecasts an annual turnover of $8 billion - intends to open from 8.25 per cent for 1996-97 to 9 per cent for Australia's first independent air cargo handling 1997-98, given that 7500 jobs were lost throughout centre at Tullamarine. That is the initial phase of Victoria between November 1996 and BOC's $20 million investment program, and the February 1997, and given that four out of five government welcomes the fact it has chosen regional areas of Victoria are suffering from Melbourne Airport first. double-digit unemployment, will the minister stand by his government's 1996 election promise to create An efficient air freight service is essential given that 150 000 jobs by 2000? Melbourne is a hub for advanced manufacturing, particularly the quick freighting of perishable and Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (Minister for Industry, manufactured goods and other commodities which Science and Technology) - I am very tempted to must comply with strict delivery deadlines and give a single-word answer, but because he has given which require the sort of facility available at me the opportunity I shall provide Mr Theophanous Tullamarine. The investment will undoubtedly with a longer answer. The bottom line is that cement Melbourne's position as the airfreight capital employment is not just improving, it is radically of Australia. better than it was under the former Labor government. It also dovetails neatly with the recent release of A Guide for International Airfreight Users prepared by Hon. D. A. Nardella - That is a great the Victorian Airfreight Council, chaired by my improvement! parliamentary colleague Mr Hartigan. On behalf of all honourable members I thank Mr Hartigan for his Hon. M. A. BIRRELL - Yes, the Kennett contribution in ensuring this new advisory government is clawing its way back from the document is available to airfreight users in the problems caused by the incompetence of previous industry. federal and state Labor governments. When the Keating and Kirner governments were in power The booklet provides valuable information for users Victoria suffered from deteriorating employment on airfreight procedures and advice on selecting prospects. The government knows its task is to service providers. BGC will now become one of the recover from that position. It made a number of newest major service providers. I am pleased that commitments to ensure it would achieve a certain we will get a new service and that it will be accessed target, and it stands by those commitments by those small and medium-size businesses that unequivocally. would not know the rules of the game in the absence of the new guide. More importantly, the government has a benchmark for our achievements. This year Victoria has hit the BOC's new cargo terminal is strategically located highest employment levels in its history. Under the next to the airport apron and is forecast to handle Kennett government, it has never been higher. That more than 40 000 tonnes of cargo in its first year of comes off the back of the Kirner government, which operation. The site is fully secured with controlled gave Victoria record unemployment levels, and the access and has vacant land adjacent for future Keating government, which gave us 'the recession expansion. The government is in a good position to we had to have'. Unequivocally employment levels maximise Melbourne's reputation as the freight have risen. capital of Australia as it waits on the future development and privatisation of Tullamarine Hon. T. C. Theophanous - Will you stand by airport. your commitment?

Employment: election promise Hon. M. A. BIRRELL - Yes, I said the government stands by its commitments. Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS (Jika Jika) - I direct my question to the Minister for Industry, QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

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Hon. T. C. Theophanous - You will stand by and plan their routes to avoid low bridges, utilising that commitment. We want it on the record. Vicroads Height Clearance on Roads booklet. I am pleased to announce that Vicroads, the Victorian Hon. M. A. BIRRELL - It is on the record! Road Transport Association and the Transport Workers Union-- Honourable members interjecting. Hon. Pat Power - A good organisation. The PRESIDENT - Order! The Leader of the Opposition is sorely tempting me. I ask him to desist. Hon. G. R. CRAIGE - Yes, it is; and it is led by a responsible union leader, Bill Newman. The three Hon. M. A. BIRRELL - The government is organisations have worked together to develop a delighted to have on the record, now or on any other comprehensive training program for drivers of occasion, the comparison between the sad record of over-height vehicles. Drivers who have met these the tawdry government Mr Theophanous was a training requirements will carry certificates or letters member of and the successful record of the Kennett provided by the owners of the vehicles certifying government, because on every measure employment that they have completed the training course and are has improved and unemployment has fallen. authorised to drive the vehicles.

Under the Kennett government 250 000 private jobs The Victorian Road Transport Association is have been created. A statistic like that could not supporting the mandatory requirement for these have been cited by the Kirner government because it vehicles to carry measuring devices so they can corrupted the employment market. Employment measure the height of containers. This is an was one of the issues voters had in mind when they indication of the way in which the government is voted at the 1992 election. When it came to social meeting the needs of an ever-changing industry - justice, you failed, and when it came to employment, the road freight industry. you failed - and that is why you lost government. Road rage Trucks: height limits Hon. PAT POWER (Jika Jika) - The Minister for Hon. R. A. BEST (North Western) - Will the Roads and Ports will be aware of further press Minister for Roads and Ports inform the house of the reports of serious assaults following continuing recent state government initiative to improve the incidents of road rage. Hansard shows that the safety of vehicles carrying 2.9-metre high containers? minister has washed his hands of any responsibility for the increasing occurrence of this dangerous Hon. G. R. CRAIGE (Minister for Roads and behaviour on our roads. Does the minister still hold Ports) - The state government has introduced a the view that road rage is not his responsibility? scheme that designates a temporary height limit of When can the Victorian community expect an 4.6 metres for trucks carrying 2.9-metre high announcement from the minister on strategies to containers. reduce this totally unacceptable behaviour?

The government has reacted quickly to an accident Hon. G. R. CRAIGE (Minister for Roads and that occurred recently. It has issued an information Ports) - I thank the honourable member for his bulletin and placed a notice in the Victorian ongoing and genuine interest in this issue. As I have Government Gazette No. 538 of 11 April to allow already indicated to this house on many previous trucks, but not B-doubles, to be loaded to a occasions, the issue of so-called road rage is a maximum height of 4.6 metres when carrying phenomenon of Pat Power's wild imagination and 2.9-metre high containers. The scheme will operate the media. As I have already explained to the house until 1 January 2000, after which transport operators many times, road rage is not a road safety issue; it is will need to use low-profile vehieles that comply an issue of social behaviour in which people with the general height limit of 4.3 metres when aggressively display their feelings towards other carrying these containers. people.

Drivers of vehicles carrying 2.9-metre high Honourable members interjecting. containers will be required to measure and record the height of their loads, satisfactorily complete the The PRESIDENT - Order! Mr Power asked his training course for drivers of over-height vehicles; question in good faith and is expecting a response QUESTIONS ON NOTICE

Wednesday, 30 April 1997 COUNCIL 541 from the minister; the minister is not helped by hand prevent the recurrence of similar incidents in the claps or interjections from members of the house. industry and, most importantly, the opportunity to target prevention programs to reduce the incidence Hon. G. R. CRAIGE - As I indicated to the of death, injuries and illness in the workplace. It is house on the last occasion this matter was raised, the not intended that all accidents be notified to the government has commissioned Elliot and Shanahan authority but that they be restricted to those Research, a Sydney-based research consultancy, to resulting in death or serious injury or where a investigate the matter and the programs that have dangerous occurrence creates an immediate risk to been introduced internationally. If the honourable the health and safety of workers. member wants me to go over it and name all the countries I named last time I will do so. All the A toll-free telephone number has been established programs have already been indicated. Clearly, the and brochures have been made freely available experience internationally, as shown by the explaining the new incident notification regulations. information we already have -- Workcover field staff are also in the process of visiting workplaces to explain the changes and the Opposition members interjecting. reporting procedures.

Hon. G. R. CRAIGE - Sometimes people get Hon. T. C. Theophanous interjected. Opposition Rage, don't they, Mr President? How can I try to answer a serious question asked by Hon. R. M. HALLAM - I am absolutely genuine. Mr Power with that sort of behaviour going on? I I make the point that we are not looking for thought it was a serious question but judging by the recrimination but the opportunity to avoid a amount of frivolity taking place on the opposition repetition of the incident in the first place. This is benches I do not know whether I was right. When another good example of this government's the report and information is provided to me it will determination to get workplace safety further up the show that this state continues to lead Australia in agenda. Again, I commend the work of the Victorian road safety matters. Workcover Authority. Workcover: workplace safety QUESTIONS ON NOTICE

Hon. N. B. LUCAS (Eumemmerring) - Will the Answers Minister responsible for Workcover inform the house of the Victorian Workcover Authority's latest Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Minister for Finance) - I initiative to improve safety in the workplace? have an answer to question no. 193, which is in tabular form, and I seek leave to have it incorporated Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Minister for Finance) - I in Hansard. take for granted the fact that each member of this chamber would regard workplace safety as an issue The PRESIDENT - Leave is granted. of extreme importance. The merger of the Victorian Workcover Authority and the Occupational Health Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Minister for Finance) - I and Safety Organisation has been a giant step also have the answer to question no. 573. forward in promoting workplace safety and in promoting the concept that through workplace Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS (Jika Jika) (By safety the best possible outcome can be achieved - leave) - I note that the response provided by the namely, the avoidance of the injury in the first place. minister to question no. 573 indicates that the information cannot be provided because of the The Occupational Health and Safety (Incident amount of resources that wo!ld be required of the Notification) Regulations came into effect earlier this authority. This reason for not -- month, and they require employers to notify the Victorian Workcover Authority of any fatal or The PRESIDENT - Order! What is the question? serious accident in the workplace. Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - The concern, not The thesis behind this initiative is to promptly the question, is whether the minister would identify whether preventative action is necessary, re-examine this, given that -- thus avoiding a further serious injury. Notification also gives the authority the information it needs to Hon. G. R. Craige - Read the question. INFERTILITY TREATMENT (AMENDMENT) BILL

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Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - The question The definition of 'de facto relationship' set out in asks the Minister for Gaming what amount has been clause 6 and based on the definition in other paid in travel allowances to the minister or the legislation is acceptable to the opposition: minister's predecessors and what are the details of ... 'de facto relationship' means the relationship of a each claim by the minister for travel allowances, man and a woman who are living together as including date, destination and purpose of travel. husband and wife on a genuine domestic basis, although not married ... I would not have thought that that is something beyond the resources of the department. I ask the Definitions of 'husband', 'spouse' and 'wife' are minister to reconsider whether this information included to ensure that there is no ambiguity about should be made available, because I do not accept those terms. As I said, the opposition welcomes the this excuse about resources, given that the question change in eligibility and the subsequent changes that involves two people - the minister and the are set out to accommodate it. minister's predecessor - and the details of their travel allowances. I would not have thought that The bill also repeals part 10 of the principal act, the would take many resources. I ask the minister to Infertility Treatment Act, which provides for the reconsider the answer. establishment, operation and composition of the Standing Review and Advisory Committee on INFERTILITY TREATMENT Infertility, commonly known as SRACI. The (AMENDMENT) BILL opposition has grave concerns about the scrapping of the committee. I note that the minister said in his Second reading second-reading speech that correspondence has been received from the chairperson of SRACI and the Debate resumed from 22 April; motion of other committee that was established under the 1995 Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Minister for Health). bill- that is, the Infertility Treatment Authority, the ITA. Hon. M. M. GOULD (Doutta Galla) - On behalf of the opposition my comment on the introduction My information is that the intention was that the of the Infertility Treatment (Amendment) Bill is: I two committees work as one, rather than abolishing told you so. The Infertility Treatment Bill that was one and maintaining the other. I understand the IT A before the house in 1995 excluded de facto couples is involved in the commercial or scientific activities from involvement in the IVF program and therefore of the IVF program. SRACI on the other hand has the opposition opposed it. As a result of that 14 members, who come from a wide range of areas, legislation three people took action before the among them consumers. The membership of SRACI commonwealth Sex Discrimination Commissioner. includes children born following involvement in the Hearings were conducted on the alleged breaches of IVF program and I understand that amounts each the commonwealth act by the Royal Women's year to some 1000 children. My understanding also Hospital and the Freemason's Hospital. is that the preference is that the two committees be incorporated into one body, rather than repealing In the decision handed down on 5 March, the SRACI and retaining the ITA. commissioner ordered that compensation of $4500 be paid to one person and $5000 to the second Not long ago SRACI drew the attention of the person. The third person, who was forced to cross minister and the community to the fact that the ITA the border into New South Wales to participate in was not maintaining the appropriate records of the program, was awarded more than $17000. donors, children and gametes as is required by part 9 of the principal act. That information assists When the decision was handed down the opposition SRACI in its deliberations on issues that come up called on the govemment to introduce amendments under the IVF program, including moral and ethical to remove the discriminatory clauses that excluded matters and those concerning consumers or doctors de facto couples from participation in the IVF involved in the process. program. I acknowledge that the government has done so in a short time and that is the purpose of the All the members of SRACI are well experienced and bill. The opposition welcomes the amendments eminent people. Nobody is questioning their ability which will allow de facto couples to participate in to do their job. However, SRACI was a regulatory the IVF program. body that had the ability to accept advice from the minister or undertake investigations within its own INFERTILITY TREATMENT (AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 30 April 1997 COUNCIL 543 reference into all the effects of IVF in all its elements, ITA's responsibility is to pass on to SRACI whether scientific, medical or the psychological information on the domiciliary list, children and so effects on participants in or recipients of the on. The opposition understands SRACI experienced program. continual difficulty obtaining that information from the ITA and that it was not as forthcoming as one The concern is that if the statutory body is repealed would like. the government will appoint a council whose members will not have the regulatory functions set Hon. R. I. Knowles interjected. out in the principal act but will be appointed by the minister. I note that the minister said in his Hon. M. M. GOULD - That could be the case. second-reading speech that the composition of That is one of the issues about the retention of SRACl, as currently set out in the bill, will be taken SRACI - the providers are conscious they have a into account, but there is no guarantee that all those role. They do not want to be involved in any issues elements will be included in the composition of the other than purely scientific ones. Researchers are new council. During the briefing we had yesterday more interested in scientific issues than in any the parliamentary secretary said that would be used ethical, community or psychological issues that may as a basis. However, the body was able to take result from a new life coming into this world. As I advice from and give advice to the minister. said, close to a thousand children a year are born through this process and the issues that affect them Hon. R. I. Knowles - That is the existing SRACr. are different from those affecting other children. Under the bill which has been passed but which is Therefore, it is necessary to ensure that as those not yet fully proclaimed, SRACI has a very narrow children grow older there is an organisation with the focus, not the broad focus of the existing SRACr. If protection of legislation to look into those issues and the existing bill were proclaimed in full, the new report on them to the minister and the community as SRACl would have a single role to approve research. they arise. Both the chairmen put to me that it would be unnecessary to have two authorities considering the SRACI has also done a great deal of work on the issue of research, and that ought to be done by one information which should be collected about IVF body. Many of the points you are making are and the best ways of collecting it. As I said, the applicable to the existing SRACI, which, until the report to be released in 10 days outlines that. There establishment of the ITA, had a very broad role. are concerns that the ITA will not be competent. I am Once the 1995 bill is fully proclaimed, the new not saying its staff is incompetent, but the SRACl will have a very narrow role. I certainly recommendations assume competence in this accept the point you are making about the particular field. The minister has indicated he will government receiving advice from a broad range of adopt the recommendations, but how will they be people. That is why we are establishing a ministerial implemented? There is a concern that the ITA does council on infertility. not have the necessary expertise and is not in a position to carry out the necessary tasks. Those tasks Hon. M. M. GOULD - I am grateful for that are very time consuming and include talking to the explanation from the minister. The comments I children, the successful participants in the programs raised about SRACI came from a member of the and the ethical and psychological people with current board. Those matters were raised with the expertise in the field. The collection of meaningful opposition as recently as 3 hours ago. That is why I information in this area is very difficult because it am raising them now. must be done on an individual, case-by-case basis.

Hon. R. I. Knowles - I will reiterate my points Another example is the effectiveness of the during the third-reading stage. treatment. Some questions have been asked about the fact that some people who have been strongly Hon. M. M. GOULD - I understand that the encouraged to go down the track of IVF have not report of SRACl, which is scheduled to be tabled in experienced a success rate as high as others have. 10 days time, will set out a number of That is just the way it is at this time, but it is recommendations. Given that the bill repeals SRACI, necessary to ensure that people are fully informed of that report will not have gone through the full that. A huge amount of counselling takes place prior parliamentary process. One would hope that even if to approval being given to participate in the SRACl is repealed the minister will take on board program, but it is necessary to ensure that people are and implement those recommendations. Part of the aware of the success rates of the program. Technical INFERTILITY TREATMENT (AMENDMENT) BILL

544 COUNCIL Wednesday, 30 April 1997 information should be given about treatment cycles those problems and took into account the and the different methods of assisting couples to psychological problems of those children and have children. constantly monitored them. As the years go by those problems mayor may not increase, but it is The question is whether the ITA is able to do that important to be aware of them. SRACI ensured that and whether the replacement council will cover that that was monitored on a regular basis. area. It must ensure that the providers of the program do not move ahead of community One of the reasons for the scrapping of the standards. Based on my reading of some of the committee is that there are overlapping functions. debates, that is one of the biggest issues debated in Another issue raised was whether committee this place. It is therefore important that the work of decisions should be unanimous. Earlier I spoke with SRACI is maintained. As I said, the opposition is Mrs Hogg. She stated that when she was a minister concerned that the bill repeals SRACI and has she was not aware of any committee coming to a reservations about whether the ITA or even the unanimous decision on anything. For people to replacement council will be able to pick up that imply that a good committee can only be one that work. unanimously agrees on every issue does send a good message to the community. That was what the The ITA has a membership of about seven. There are representative of SRACI indicated and that is part of insufficient consumers - consumers being the people the reason for the change. The committee comprises who undergo the treatment or their children - on the 14 people from a wide range of backgrounds and IT A and I know difficulty has been experienced in one can never get unanimous support in such a organising the consumers into some sort of group. I group. It is not easy to do and would be like trying call on the minister to assist in some way. All the to get unanimous support on an issue in this house. individuals involved have just one common interest - the IVF program. It is important that they receive a The opposition wholeheartedly supports the small amount of assistance so they can organise amendments in the bill that provide for de facto themselves and have greater representation on the couples to enter the program; however, it has authority. Some difficulties were experienced when reservations about the repeal of part 10 of the working out who would be the consumer principal act, which will abolish the Standing representative on SRACI, and even though it is Review and Advisory Committee on Infertility. going out the door it is still important that the consumers be assisted in ensuring their concerns are The bill also changes the operative date of the reported to the minister in whatever form is principal act to provide that if the unproclaimed available at the time. provisions of that act have not come into operation by 1 January next year they will come into operation The regulation of the IVF industry is difficult. on that day. Even if the department does not have Doctors like to promote it; they have their the regulations in place we are guaranteed that by self-interest and they view it as a business. That is 1 January next year de facto couples will be able to why I keep coming back to the need for SRACI participate in the program. The opposition hopes it because it is more concerned with the holistic will come into operation earlier. Other provisions in approach than the business approach. The business the bill refer to a staged process. approach sees NF as a procedure, a scientific avenue, and takes no account of the human interest The opposition has reservations about the repeal of and all the other elements associated with it. SRACI, but supports the amendments in relation to de facto couples and congratulates the government Concern has been expressed about information on moving so quickly on them. about donors and the keeping of the registers. It is necessary to ensure that the ITA does the job it is Hon. R. J. H. WELLS (Eumemmerring) - It is supposed to do and that the replacement council with pleasure that I join in the debate on the bill. I takes on its responsibilities in that regard. had the honour of being elected to the Parliament of Victoria soon after the Infertility (Medical As technology improves and more children are born Procedures) Act was passed. Without in any way as a result of the program some psychological wishing to denigrate the importance of this problems are emerging similar to those experienced proposed legislation because I believe every aspect by adopted children. SRACI was very much of human reproduction is of the greatest importance, involved in ensuring that people were aware of I am not surprised that the bill has been introduced INFERTILITY TREATMENT (AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 30 April 1997 COUNCIL 545 at this time. It is in some ways a bill that is designed attitudes of the day, it is desirable to widen that class to fine tune, firstly, administrative procedures of people. relating to the area and, secondly, the difficult decisions members of Parliament are from time to The Infertility Treatment Act was passed a year or time required to make on the principles which two ago and Parliament is now being asked to control the application of technology related to modify parts of it that deal with administration. The human reproduction. act created a second legal body in Victoria, the Infertility Treatment Authority, to administer those There are broadly three areas of responsibility areas on behalf of the government of the day and the undertaken by Parliament in respect of human bill now removes the Standing Review and Advisory reproduction. The simplest is administration. From Committee on Infertility. SRACI has a narrower time to time governments of the day make changes mandate than the initial Standing Review and in administrative arrangements. There is not and Advisory Committee, which was established by the cannot be any degree of political ramification in 1984 act. That has complicated administrative issues those changes, they are simply changes that we and caused delay, so SRACI is to be abolished. human beings make to the best of our ability at the appropriate times, often against a background of I pay tribute to the members of Parliament - there changing information and in the atmosphere and are several in this chamber today - who environment of the day. The change involving participated in the development of the first bill and part 10 of the principal act is not of any greatly the passing of the 1984 act. Infertility treatment was controversial moment and is the result of serious an extremely difficult area to consider in 1984. It consideration by the government and others. involved new, complex and challenging ideas, and apart from administration it also involved morals, The second area of responsibility concerns the idealism, anguish, suffering, love and all the rest of technology used in human reproductive work. Some those deep mores of human life, which are so may be surprised when I say that the technology is complex. I believe the subject demonstrates its not very complicated. It has evolved from a capacity importance because bills on it have been coming into developed over the past two decades to maintain this house at a regular rate since 1984. Nevertheless, bodily cells in tissue culture systems. That has now the parent act has stood the test of time. It has done a been applied to maintaining for short periods good job and its efficiency is a tribute to the wisdom without further reproduction, in the allowed of the members of Parliament who created it. procedures at least, gamete cells - that is, reproductive cells - when they are removed from The bill today repeals part 10 of the 1995 act and will the body. in due course lead to the establishment of another organisation to replace the Standing Review and Although the technology is not complicated it has Advisory Committee on Infertility. The new been necessary to proceed down the path step by organisation will be established in the near future step, as is always the case with scientific research, and will be a broadly based ministerial advisory moving from one known point to the next unknown council into infertility issues. The wisdom of the point becoming a known point and so on. One of the government's move to establish another great breakthroughs in this area came in the organisation is beyond question in broad terms laboratories of Professor AIan Trounson of Monash because the previous two committees have University. Because of Professor Trounson's work acknowledged the difficulties they have faced since and that of his colleagues, Australia justifiably 1995 in discharging their responsibilities as occupies a very special place in this area in the overlapping organisations. world at this time. I pay tribute to Professor Waller and Mr Marks, QC, The third area of responsibility, which is also the for leading those committees so welL I do not intend second area of significant amendment in the bill, to canvass the sorts of matters the two chairmen involves the question of the application of what in raised about the difficulties created by the 1995 some ways is a momentous capacity to influence legislation. I simply say again that they did the state specifically human reproduction person by person. a service by pointing out that avoidable critical The move by the government to widen the class of delays were being caused by that organisational people who might benefit from assisted overlap. The proposed attempt to improve the reproductive technology is nothing more or less than situation is therefore desirable. that - that is, a recognition at this point, given the INFERTILITY TREATMENT (AMENDMENT) BILL

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The bill also attests to the fast rate of change in the person? It seems that if ever we let go the notion of development of knowledge we are seeing in this the human as uniquely special, democracy will fail. area. In the democratic world matters relating to human beings are always the most important and The bill provides for the widening of the class of next to their health nothing is more important to persons who might use infertility treatment to individuals than the yearning to have children of include de facto couples in established relationships. their own. As a result that issue naturally attracts It is not surprising it has taken a little while to reach funding and encouragement and a consequent this point. I am speaking only on my own behalf, but capacity for research. The scientists of Australia I have had the privilege of having four children who stand second to none in the world in their are all now adults and because of that I believe contributions to this area. children need a family relationship. In that context the bill is correct in including de facto couples but Perhaps this is a point at which I can again take up not including other individuals for whom, although the matter of Professor Alan Trounson and his team one might share their grief, one feels scientific at Monash University. Although they are not the technology is not something that can be pushed to only ones in Australia working in this field, it was any limit, particularly when there may be other the brilliance of Trounson in evolving techniques for solutions. maintaining the life of gamete cells outside the body which, when then applied to human beings, I turn to family and human stability. Parliament provided the great breakthrough. Honourable must, and I believe will, bear foremost in its mind members may not be aware that that technology has that the technologies with which we are now brought to Victoria well in excess of $100 million in empowered are so powerful and are moving so recent years. However, Trounson is probably more rapidly that it would be possible if we were famous outside Australia than in it, and his enthusiasts not thinking carefully about where we technology has spread throughout much of the were permitting our society to go to cause great world. harm to our human and societal condition, and in that way create long standing problems. As mentioned by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, the 1000 babes a year being born by this Parliament and the government are right in attesting method attest to the wish of people to have children through legislation to the primacy of responsibility and to the capacity of the research to help bring that toward the child created in any human reproductive about. I recall a case I had not intended to mention effort, whether natural or assisted. I will always of a woman I know who married recently and had consider that we should bear that in mind. Modem an enormous desire to have a child. Although she society has many problems, many of which relate to had come from a happy family line of many children the upbringing of children. It is a difficult task to she found she was infertile. She was cautioned by ensure that children reach adulthood as mature, her medical counsel that pregnancy was not balanced and capable human beings. Today I say to normally to be expected at the first attempt with this the people of Victoria through Parliament that they technology and that it might take some time, if it should not expect Parliament to rush in to adopting occurred at all. every possible technological procedure that comes along because some of them are dramatic and will be I have been close enough to the family to see the more difficult to embrace. We need to hasten slowly effect on it of this healthy, wonderful young woman in these areas. becoming pregnant within weeks of entering the system. It is a miracle in the lives of those people. The bill aligns Parliament, the government and One needs only to see something like that to say that society broadly with the conditions that have been this sort of treatment is justified. That is one of the adopted in other Parliaments in Australia, and that many cases in which Professor Trounson and other is a good thing. It is important to realise that when it workers have been able to bring about a successful comes to human life there are no state boundaries in result. our democratic nation. When all Parliaments in the nation agree on the same issue it is highly likely, if Infertility treatment is a difficult area because not certain, that we have made the right decision. research is always impinging not only on moral issues but also on the uniqueness of human beings. I shall finish on a point that relates to one I made Is the human being just a clever animal or a special earlier about Parliament needing to progress slowly when approving new technology. In the 1984 act the INFERTILITY TREATMENT (AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 30 April 1997 COUNCIL 547 legislators wisely prohibited cloning, but that subject Hon. C. J. HOGG (Melbourne North) - It is with has come back into prominence in recent weeks and great pleasure that I participate once again in a months. The first work done on cloning used debate on infertility legislation. I was a participant in gametes from mice and was later applied to higher the very first debate in 1984, which at that time was mammals such as sheep. Recently biological under the auspice of the Attorney-General of the scientists have demonstrated cloning in sheep using day, the Honourable Jim Kennan. non-gamete cells to provide chromosomes for one half of the zygote. That is less dramatic The spur for the legislation was the extraordinary technologically than it appears. and dramatic case of the Rios embryos - it is always an extraordinary and dramatic case! The Rios A few years ago when the methodology for couple had lost their lives tragically in an air crash, producing an atomic bomb was published there was but had participated in an IVF program. Frozen a similar concern that, if I can speak colloquially, embryos were held in Victoria and enormous legal every Tom, Dick and Harry might try to get in on and ethical questions resulted. As it happened, the the act. Although any postgraduate physicist can Rios family were millionaires and so the tabloid find the technology to build a nuclear bomb that has press found more issues to write about than one not happened, and the same situation applies to this could actually believe. A former Attorney-General, technology. It is not complex, the literature is the Honourable Haddon Storey, gave a reference on available and it has been established in mammals the issue of reproductive technology to lower than human beings. Thousands of calves are Professor W aller. In 1984 the legislation came to born each year as a result of IVF technology. Parliament and the Waller report was widely read. Or Wells was quite right when he said that It is appropriate to say that the democratic Parliament broke new ground in the 1984 debate. Parliaments of the world - Victoria leads the way in this regard - have said firmly that the sort of Hon. R. I. Knowles interjected. technology involved in cloning ought not be permitted for human beings. Although I can think of Hon. C. J. HOGG - It is true, as the minister conditions of human disease where one might points out, that the then Attorney-General appeared propose that it be adopted, this is one of the cases I on American television on a program called Coast to referred to earlier when I said that Parliament must Coast. The legislation was the first of its kind in the not rush into allowing use of the technology. I am world and for some time the then Attorney-General sure it will not. There are areas of human infertility was known as coast-to-coast Kennan when that we can validly support doing something about, interjections flowed across the chamber, and no but there are others in which we ought not to do doubt in other places, too! anything. Many other countries were facing similar problems It is appropriate to say to the media that it has made because the technology was available for the IVF far too much about cloning and has caused far too program or assisted reproduction. However, in other much concern in the Victorian community. It should parts of the world decisions were made to leave not continue down that road because it well knows most of the difficult issues to the ethics committees that legislation forbids the use of the technology. The of hospitals. In Victoria we agonised about whether media should not be raising these matters in a strong the legislative route was the right path, and I am way unless it has evidence to back up its case. It sure the agony the Labor Party felt was mirrored in does not have that evidence. the conservative opposition of the day.

I join with the Deputy Leader of the Opposition in I remember a former Liberal member of Parliament, commending the government for introducing the WaIter Jona, saying how strongly he believed there bill, which makes very desirable changes that will should be some form of regulation. I can remember give the new ministerial council a chance to work. It the women within the Labor Party meeting together is important that the new ministerial council should in one of the little committee rooms downstairs to not be limited by statute as to what it may deal with talk about the legislation. One woman said that we because it will be charged with advising the minister would never have a more important debate in all the on any area that is necessary. The change for de facto time we sat in Parliament than the one that took couples is something to be commended. It is with place on Professor Waller's recommendations, even pleasure that I support the bill. if we were in Parliament for many years or never lost our seats. INFERTILITY TREATMENT (AMENDMENT) BILL

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Although there was general agreement about the about community representation and the adviSOry legislation, until today there has not been agreement committee that will guide the process. about the admission of de facto couples into the program. When I read the debate of 23 November Over the coming decade, I am sure many more 1984, which is recorded at page 809 of Hansard, I amendments will be made. Mr Deputy President, found that I had acknowledged that at that time when you and I have left this place there will still be probably most Victorians would have agreed that it bills being introduced to amend the infertility was preferable for couples in the program to be procedures legislation. As Dr Wells said, married, However, it was my view that couples who developments in science and technology have went through the preparation and counselling, who outstripped the general community's ability to were judged to be suitable for admission to the understand. In many ways they have gone beyond program and who were found to be living in a bona the imagination of the ordinary layperson. fide domestic relationship should have no impediment to participation. This legislation produces ethical dilemmas for members of Parliament. We have to keep trying to It is interesting to note that - I know the minister balance competing issues. That is why amendments will remember this - that debate came hard on the keep on being introduced, and it is why we heels of the adoption debate in which there was also sometimes agree with them and sometimes do not. It a clause dealing with de facto couples, and yet again explains why 10 years down the track we may agree the parties held different opinions. I can remember, on the worth of a change and then 18 months later as would every member who was in the chamber disagree on something else. that night, the real distress of the Honourable Peter Block, who spoke for the inclusion of de facto Of one thing I am absolutely certain: the community couples. Although the then government was not able does not want Parliament to hurry the legislation. to win that position, it was clear that across the We should always take these huge questions slowly. parties there was beginning to be agreement about That may sometimes be frustrating and galling for that matter. That was in 1984. our scientists and for those who are hoping to benefit from the results of their work. Better to move On 7 June 1995 another infertility treatment bill was slowly than to move so robustly that we cannot put debated in this place, and I found myself saying that things back together if they go wrong. that was a good bill in almost every respect. It was one I would have loved to have drafted as the Over the past few months I am sure all honourable responsible minister, yet it was still flawed by the members have read stories in the newspapers about government's inability to acknowledge de facto what I call clinical decisions in this area. I refer to the couples and de facto relationships. It is terrific to be significant number of older women here and able to acknowledge that almost every member of abroad - well into their 50s and 60s - who are the Victorian Parliament is today saying yes to the having children through IVF. It was not thought that validity of de facto relationships. Thirteen years on that would be a likely outcome of the original community attitudes have prevailed, but only after a legislation. Although it has always been lot of anguish and suffering because of Parliament's scientifically possible to produce results such as failure to make the correct decisions. This is those, most of us did not expect they would happen. welcome legislation, but it should have been in place a long time ago. When we debate this legislation we sometimes hark back to some of the things we said during the In reading the 1984 debate - there have been other adoption debate. We said the interests of the child debates since - I was reminded that the former were paramount and should be at the centre of our Labor government made many attempts to include social policy. However, when we talk about de facto relationships as normal marriage infertility we usually talk about one partner or both relationships. Australia was the first country in the and do not necessarily think so much of the child. world to take this pioneering legislative step for The interests of the child must be at the centre of reproductive technology. things. Although we can imagine the desperation of a woman in late middle age who has not been able This bill contains amendments that correct the to have a child through the miracle of science, many position of de facto couples and some other matters people would still want to think cautiously about that we are not so certain about. Miss Gould has some of these things. thoroughly expressed the opposition's concerns INFERTILITY TREATMENT (AMENDMENT) BILL

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Science can do many marvellous things, but we have Motion agreed to. to live with the results in a very human world. It is hard to know whether the interests of the child are Read second time. served when his parents are 63 and 65 and do not have long lifespans ahead of them. People may think Third reading that is judgmental, and perhaps it is. I suppose the average human lifespan may increase to such an Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Minister for Health) - By extent that the concern becomes irrelevant. leave, I move: However, when I read those stories in the newspapers I become worried where society is That this bill be now read a third time. going. Just because science can move in that direction, we do not have to follow where science is In doing so, I thank the three members who have able to go - and the example Dr Wells gave about spoken on the bill: the Deputy Leader of the nuclear material is germane to the issue. Opposition, Dr Wells and Mrs Hogg. All three have supported in-vitro fertilisation being extended to The other thing the legislation does not mention is de facto couples, as spelled out in the that despite the miracles science and technology can second-reading speech. I do not pretend the change bring about, as Miss Gould said, in-vitro fertilisation has been warmly embraced by all members of the does not work for many couples. People must try to government. As members have witnessed during understand and come to terms with infertility and debates on this issue since 1994, which Mrs Hogg some of the health questions that exacerbate or cause referred to, there have been differing views within it in the first place. We are learning more about that the government. Right from the start some every day. One of the good byproducts of the government members have argued quite strongly 1994 debate has been a broader discussion about for de facto couples to be included and, equally, infertili ty . many have passionately argued against it on the basis that the best interests of a child are served by Male infertility was a taboo subject when I was a people who have made a legal commitment to each young woman, but now it is talked about more and other. However, society has moved on and many more. The stigma of infertility for the male relationships now do not entail a legally binding partner - and it existed to quite some degree - was commitment. As Mrs Hogg said, however, the focus such that the female partner would never talk about from the beginning has been that the legislation be it. There is now a much greater understanding of framed in a way to maximise the interests of any and frankness about that issue, which is terrific. child born as a result of in-vitro fertilisation. The government's view is that this amendment is now Along with the important ethical questions we appropriate and it is therefore included. discuss when debating important amendments to the infertility legislation, we should acknowledge I respond to the concern raised by Miss Gould about that infertility will always be a problem and that the abolition of the Stan.ding Review and Advisory science and technology will not produce miracles. Committee on Infertility. Some of the concerns she Anything Parliament can do to educate people to expressed about the way the 1995 bill envisaged a help them come to terms with infertility will be as new SRACI are unfounded. I and many government important as anything else it does with the members wholeheartedly support SRACI as a very legislation, which continues to be pioneering. important vehicle for reflecting the wide-ranging interests held within the community which are often Members of the opposition are delighted that in conflict and for providing a mechanism to focus de faetos are now included in the equation, but we on various arguments and provide advice to the wonder what the next amendments to the legislation government. will mean to society. It is almost certain that more amendments will be introduced before we expect Until 1995 in-vitro fertilisation was essentially them to be because the legislation deals with issues managed by the department, v.ith the minister being that are at the edge of science, the edge of ad\ised by SRACI. The 1995 legislation looked at reproductive technology and the edge of our ethical taking the management and monitoring of in-vitro concerns. It is among the most interesting legislation fertilisation out of the department and putting it debated in this chamber, and I am delighted to under an independent authority. At that stage it was support it. intended to constitute a new SRACI, which would be an independent authority but which would have HIRE·PURCHASE (AMENDMENT) BILL

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a single role - that is to monitor and advise the I do not want to flag the situation of whether it minister on applications for research. would be appropriate for a national review of IVF programs rather than reviews on an individual state Since becoming the Minister for Health I have had a basis. However, I find it a bit hard to mount an number of discussions with both Professor Waller argument for different rules in different states. That and the Honourable Ken Marks, QC, the current could lead to unusual arrangements where Chairman of SRACI. As the 1995 legislation was to providers could establish services across state be fully proclaimed and implemented it become borders in order to operate under the rules of clear that, firstly, there was potential for conflict another jurisdiction rather than under the between the two authorities and, secondly, that the jurisdiction of where both the provider and the new SRACI had a fairly narrow role. As a result of couple reside. That is a debate for another occasion, those discussions, both chairs put to me that they and I suspect a lot of water will go under the bridge thought the roles should be combined into a single before that occurs. authority. The government believes there are two major issues: As Miss Gould said, there are many matters relating ensuring the role envisaged by the 1995 SRACI is to infertility issues generally about which the embraced by the Infertility Treatment Authority, government should have a vehicle for receiving and allowing de facto couples in stable relationships advice. That vehicle should represent a broad range access to IVF programs. The extension of the of views, interests, skills and expertise. That is why automatic proclamation date is a practical issue. The the government has taken the decision to establish a development of the regulations in this area is quite ministerial council on fertility. In one sense the 1995 complex, particularly now that the role of the legislation did not have a vehicle for that advice to authority has been extended and will not enable it to the government because the role of SRACI was to be meet the 30 June deadline this year. limited. I assure the house that this change will not deny the government or the broad community That has been extended to 30 June next, but it is access to advice on the very significant and difficult envisaged that the 1995 act will be fully proclaimed issues relating to fertility. prior to that. It is simply pushing the date back so it is done in a sensible, planned way. I thank One of the reasons I allowed the existing SRACI to honourable members for their support of the bill. continue to operate, even though the ITA has been established and is in place, was to complete the Motion agreed to. work it set out to do last year, which was to try to obtain some more definitive information from Read third time. providers to enable the public to understand some of the important issues, such as the success rates of Remaining stages various providers and a range of relevant information. On the one hand SRACI is concerned Passed remaining stages. that a few providers think some of the information requested is excessive and costly while on the other HIRE-PURCHASE (AMENDMENT) BILL hand it is concerned that some providers were not readily provided with information. These changes Second reading have nothing to do with those issues. Debate resumed from 24 April; motion of Hon. The existing SRACI will continue so it can complete LOUISE ASHER (Minister for Small Business). the 1996 annual report, which I am advised will include statistical information. It hopes the work Hon. D. A. NARDELLA

Wednesday, 30 April 1997 COUNCIL 551 applied through section 313A(c) of the Stamps Act, nowadays is the leasing of chattels, motor vehicles which provides that a certain percentage of the and the like - anything indeed - which is very rental business's earnings are paid to the similar to but slightly different in legal terms from Comptroller of Stamps. hire purchase. A system of chattel mortgage also exists. There is also equity participation, and in the The legislation passed last year reduced the rental case of corporations their acquiSitions can be funded business duty tax from 1.5 per cent to 0.75 per cent. by utilising their whole undertaking as security in It is now the case that some hire-purchase businesses most cases through the use of debenture charges. have not been able to pass the duty on to their clients. Last year's legislation amended the Stamps At the core of hire purchase and similar types of Act, and no other forms of leasing and mortgaging arrangements is always the issue of security and the had problems with regard to the payment of the ability of the person providing the funds or chattels rental business duty. The rental business duty does to be able to secure repayment of what is in real not affect ordinary people and families or small terms a loan. As Mr Nardella has pointed out, last businesses or farmers unless the hire-purchase year the Stamps Act was amended by a reduction of arrangement is more than $35 000. The limit for a rental business duty with the intention that that duty commercial transaction is $80 000. The duty was would be payable at the time of contract. There was always intended to be paid when it became due, not a threshold on the types of businesses affected, but in advance. usually that threshold is $80 000. The change was effective from 1 January 1997. Clause 6 details transitional arrangements for this measure where the hirer is obliged to reimburse the The anomaly that has arisen is that because the duty owner for any rental business incurred after 1 May on hire purchase transactions is payable in advance 1997. The amendments have the support of the it is almost impossible to determine what amount of Australian Finance Conference which represents duty is attributable to a particular contract or indeed more than 90 per cent of businesses undertaking whether the duty will be payable at all. Clearly if the commercial leasing arrangements. I reiterate that the threshold is not met then no duty is payable. The opposition does not oppose the bill. anomaly was complicated in terms of early repayment of any hire purchase contract for which Hon. C. A. FURLETTI (Templestowe) - I duty was attributable and the refund which should appreciate the opportunity of contributing to the be made in those circumstances. It is in the interests debate on the Hire-Purchase (Amendment) Bill. of the government to have certainty in business Those involved in any way, shape or form in dealings in the state and to have a level playing field commerce in this state would appreciate that the in terms of having all rental businesses of this nature lifeblood of any business is funding, whether it be in subject to the same types of fiscal obligation. The the form of loan or equity. government has therefore introduced this bill, which provides that hirers will have to reimburse the rental Hire purchase, a system of loan raising established business duty paid by an owner subject to the approximately 20 to 30 years ago, constituted an prerequisite condition that the contract with the owner of goods selling those goods to a hirer for an owner provide that the hirer is liable to payor make ongoing payment on the basis that at the end of the that reimbursement. payment of an agreed sum, which more often than not included interest, property in the goods would The bill also provides for the amendment of the first pass to the hirer. It substituted for the former terms schedule of the Hire-Purchase Act 1959 by including contract in the sense that under a terms contract in the precontractual information statement, which possession of the goods was passed at the time of the is currently an obligation on the owner, a notice of making of a contract but in that instance the owner any obligation to reimburse the owner for rental or of the goods was able to retain title to the goods business duty. In other words, a hirer goes into an which constituted security, while remaining in a arrangement of this nature fully aware of the fact position to dispose of and effectively sell those that he or she is obliged to reimburse the rental goods with payment over time. It is an old and tried business duty to the owner. system of raising money for a business or at least raising the benefits of loans in the form of chattels. It is clear that the popularity of hire-purchase agreements is declining due to the numerous other With the passage of time more sophisticated means options available, some of which I have indicated. In of funding l),a've arisen. The most common fact, in December 1996 a report from the Scrutiny of HIRE-PURCHASE (AMENDMENT) BILL

552 COUNCIL Wednesday, 30 April 1997

Acts and Regulations Committee recommended the As is noted in the second-reading speech, the repeal of the Hire-Purchase Act and suggested a Redundant Legislation Subcommittee of the Scrutiny review of legislation covering the area. of Acts and Regulations Committee, which I am honoured to chair, reported to Parliament in Mrs Luckins will address the issues in more detail December 1996 after conducting a review of the because she is a member of the committee that made Hire-Purchase Act. considerable and substantial contributions to those recommendations. The principle act is one of the first examples of national scheme legislation. All states agreed on a Hon. D. A. Nardella interjected. consistent law for hire-purchase agreements that were quickly growing in popularity. It was Hon. C. A. FURLE'ITI - I acknowledge the recognised at the time that consumers needed contribution of Mr Nardella. The passage of this bill protection from unscrupulous operators. The use of will give almost immediate relief to those in hire-purchase as a form of finance has declined in financial institutions and individuals who are popularity markedly since the 196Os. The advent involved in the hire-purchase industry. I support the since then of the Credit Act, the Consumer Credit bill and urge all honourable members to do likewise. Code, the Fair Trading Act and the amendment of the Goods Act have made it evident that the Hon. M. T. LUCKINS (Waverley) - The Hire-Purchase Act is no longer relevant on its face provisions of the Higher Purchase (Amendment) Bill value. will affect all Victorian businesses that receive income from the renting or hiring of goods. The act The Redundant Legislation Subcommittee of the does not cover rental or hire of money or livestock, Scrutiny of Acts and Regulations Committee has a only physical items such as television sets, reference to review acts of Parliament that are household goods, computers and plant and unnecessary or redundant, unclear or ambiguous equipment. Under the Stamps Act Victorian rental and to recommend their redrafting or repeal. As business duty is payable to the State Revenue Office chairman of the committee, I invited comments from by operators who derive an income in excess of the public and interested parties on whether the $6000 in any calendar month from the rental and Hire-Purchase Act should be repealed, whether hiring of goods. certain protection afforded consumers under the act should be preserved and moved to another act, to The bill is good news for the business operators identify whether certain protection should be because it reduces the amount of rental business available to specific groups of people covering duty payable by half, from 1.5 per cent to 0.75 per specific transactions only available under the act cent of the value of the rental business, and permits which would require statutory regulation, and to the passing on to customers of the duty. The bill suggest how to best preserve those rights and formalises the amendment made last year to the protections. Stamps Act, and the reduced duty came into operation on 1 January this year. The committee received 38 responses from interested parties, including credit providers, the Any rental agreements entered into prior to Insurance Council of Australia, the Consumer Credit 1 January will incur duty at the previous level of Service, the Victorian Employers Chamber of 1.5 per cent. However, if a person signed a Commerce and Industry and the Victorian Farmers hire-purchase agreement after 1 January, and it Federation, as well as from many experts in the field extends past 1 May, when the duty is to be paid by of consumer affairs and finance. The review the business operator, the hirer will be liable to pay identified that in the main the act now almost solely the cost of the duty incurred by the hire-purchase applies to business transactions and is no longer agreement provider. Some exemptions apply. For relevant to the consumer transactions that the example, if the hirer is not a company, if the credit provisions were first put in place to regulate, such as provided is less than $35 000 and is extended on the purchase of refrigerators and similar items. The goods for personal, domestic or household use, or if committee found the act to be rigid, over the agreement is for the purchase of commercial prescriptive and inappropriate as a means of vehicles or farming machinery specified in the regulating business finance. Credit Act. The act caps interest rates at 8 per cent, which is inconsistent with modern financial practice, not to ELECTRICITY INDUSTRY (LOY YANG B) BILL

Wednesday, 30 April 1997 COUNCIL 553 mention unattractive to hire-purchase providers. level playing field exists in all areas of finance. The Certainly during the 1980s hire-purchase was not amendment halves the rental business duty and is the most popular form of finance offered by financial welcomed by the industry. I understand it was first providers because of the prevailing higher interest proposed by the Australian Finance Conference. I rates. The committee was alarmed to hear in thank the AFC for its initiative. I am pleased to hear evidence that the rigidity of the act was resulting in that the opposition also supports the amendment. I a substantial loss of business for Victoria, as larger commend the bill to the house. transactions by national companies were undertaken interstate to avoid the act's provisions. Motion agreed to.

The committee identified two areas in which repeal Read second time. of the Hire-Purchase Act would result in a loss of protection for consumers. The statutory right to Third reading reopen harsh or unconscionable contracts relating to business transactions would be lost, but the Hon. LODISE ASHER (Minister for Small committee was of the view that the development of Business) - By leave, I move: equitable principles of unconscionability in the Amadio case covered the area. That this bill be now read a third time.

More importantly, section 25 of the act also provides I thank Mr Nardella and members of the opposition protection by way of a 12-month moratorium on the for their support for the bill. I also congratulate repossession of farming goods under hire-purchase Mr Furletti and Mrs Luckins on their agreements. The purpose of the section is to enable well-thought-out contributions to this debate. farmers to retain possession of goods such as tractors, harvesters and other equipment needed to Motion agreed to. work a farm to afford them the opportunity to trade out of financial difficulty. The committee Read third time. investigated how that problem was overcome interstate and ascertained that although other Remaining stages jurisdictions addressed the need for protection for farmers, none was acceptable as a model for Passed remaining stages. adoption in Victoria. ELECTRICITY INDUSTRY The committee was concerned that retaining strict (LOYYANG B) BILL regulation over hire-purchase agreements, a diminishing area of finance provision, while Second reading allowing other financial transactions such as leases and chattel mortgages to remain unregulated, was Debate resumed from 29 April; motion of inconsistent. In December last year, the committee Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Minister for Finance). recommended that the Hire-Purchase Act be repealed and that the ministers for Fair Trading, Hon. D. MeL. DAVIS (East Yarra) - I support Agriculture and Resources, and Small Business the bill wholeheartedly. It is another step in the consider as a question of policy the development of government's important electricity privatisation new legislation to address the requirements of the program. The bill contains a number of provisions rural sector in regard to commercial finance as part that will facilitate the sale of the Loy Yang B power of a model for a national code relating to protection station. It amends the Electricity Industry Act, the for the business-farming sector and that they State Electricity Commission Act and the Loy consider referring the recommendations to the Yang B Act. relevant ministerial council for the development of national uniform legislation. In 1992 part of the partly constructed Loy Yang B power station was sold by the former SEC V to I am pleased to report to the house that the Edison Mission Energy. It was a decision of the recommendations are currently being considered by Honourable David White, a former Labor minister, the ministers. In the meantime, while the which was driven by a lack of financial resources in Hire-Purchase Act remains on the statute book the the state at the time, and the inability to complete amendments we are considering will ensure that a the power station. The state of Victoria also agreed ELECTRICITY INDUSTRY (LOY YANG B) BILL

554 COUNCIL Wednesday, 30 April 1997 to support the Loy Yang B project in a number of Hon. D. MeL. DAVIS - I think the problem was ways. There was an agreement to purchase power with the form of the contract. It was tied to things generated by the station for 33 years, agreements to the government could not control. supply coal and infrastructure services for the same period and an agreement to complete its Hon. D. A. Nardella -It wasn't actually to get construction. the aluminium smelter on line, was it?

Until now Loy Yang B has been largely insulated Hon. D. MeL. DAVIS - It was claimed to be. from the reforms of the electricity industry of The price was far too high in any case and the risks Victoria, which lead the world in this area. Those were borne by the SECV, so the government faced reforms have set the pace, and later I shall discuss the problem of being exposed to long-term market some of the reforms that are occurring in the USA fluctuation risks. I do not believe that state and elsewhere. The 1992 agreements have proved to governments should expose themselves to those be extremely unprofitable for the SECV and in fact sorts of risks. have been a millstone around the necks of all Victorians. It was a bad deal. It was so bad that we Hon. D. A. Nardella - Are you saying the are paying three times the price we should be aluminium smelter at Portland should not have been paying for the power. built?

Hon. D. A. Nardella - So bad that the Hon. D. MeL. DAVIS - No, I am not saying opposition at the time agreed with it. that; I am saying the form of the contract was the problem and the exposure to risks was unacceptable. Hon. D. MeL. DAVIS - The current government The deal the previous government did was the was in a spot when it came to power. It had to accept problem, not the smelter. The smelter is an that the deal was very close to completion and was important industry. caught out with it. The proposed revision of arrangements will involve the sale of the state's The bill amends the Electricity Industry Act to allow remaining 49 per cent interest in Loy Yang B to for the allocation from the SECV to other entities of Mission Energy and the cancellation of the existing property rights and liabilities relating to Loy Yang B, power purchase agreement. including the Loy Yang mine, which will be allocated to Loy Yang A, and the SECV Loy Yang B The government will enter into a new and far more trader vesting contracts, which in turn will be suitable agreement for the people of Victoria, under allocated to Edison Mission Energy. which the state support arrangements will be terminated and many of the residual risks of the The bill provides that the Governor in Council may former SECV, including the risk associated with by order published in the Government Gazette construction defects, will be passed on to Mission regulate in such manner as the Governor in Council Energy. This is an important change because the sees fit the prices payable by persons purchasing government needs to avoid exposure to serious electricity from the wholesale electricity market for open-ended risks of that type. the purpose of reducing the price the SECV pays for the power to be supplied to the aluminium smelters. The revised arrangements will allow the state to complete the reform of Victoria's electricity As I mentioned, a number of changes are occurring generation sector and will allow Loy Yang B to more around the world and the United States of America fully participate in the enhanced competition and is an interesting case in point. A range of changes are electricity market that has been created. Losses occurring there and state governments in the USA incurred by the former SECV under the Loy Yang B are leading the charge. I direct the attention of the power purchase agreement will be brought to an house to an article which was published in Business end and the losses it incurred under the aluminium Week in December 1996 and which considers a smelter power supply arrangements will be number of changes in California and looks at substantially reduced. Those power supply charges by the Pacific Gas and Electric Company. arrangements were entered into by the previous The article mentions regions in various parts of government. California and states that according to Bright Line Energy, a consulting firm in that state, the average Hon. D. A. Nardella - Do you know why they sales price in one particular area was a little more were entered into? than 10 cents per kilowatt hour, whereas across the ELECTRICITY INDUSTRY (LOY Y ANG B) BILL

Wednesday, 30 April 1997 COUNCIL 555 border in Oregon, the Portland General Corporation Dozens of other states are reviewing proposals to inject charged barely half that, or about 5.5 cents per a dose of competition into their electricity monopoly kilowatt hour. One customer is quoted as saying: system.

They try to give us explanations for that, and it's very I note it is not just Victoria and Australia that are difficult to understand. looking at competition. The article continues:

As prices begin to fall in Victoria, important More and more states are going to electricity community results will be achieved because the competition because they're competing among right types of markets will apply and there will be themselves for a bigger share of the economic pie. the right types of fits between different suppliers and different independent users. It is interesting to Hon. D. A. Nardella - Is that in the USA? note that some of the changes that have been introduced here are a return to an earlier way of Hon. D. MeL. DAVIS - Yes, it is. I am making organising electricity and utility distribution the point that it is certainly not in Victoria alone that generally. we are beginning to see these changes. I should also say the sale price of the Loy Yang A power deal was I again direct the attention of the house to an an extraordinary $4.76 billion. That is far and away interesting article that appeared in the IPA Review above what anyone would have imagined would late last year. The article looks at the history of the have been achieved for that asset. That is close to utilities in Victoria and Australia. It is written by completing the generation side of it and moving into Jeffry Babb and Richard Harrison. One of the private ownership. The next step is to bring the full authors is a writer and the other is a research analyst market forces to bear in a number of these areas. It is at IBIS Business Information. They make the point important because it will give the Victorian industry that last century and early this century, with the a significant competitive edge. exception of water, many of our utilities that in recent times have been in public hands were Hon. D. A. Nardella - You wish! privately owned and operated and delivered in an effective style. The article states: Hon. D. MeL. DAVIS - Indeed, it will, and there is evidence of that. I commend the bill to the house. In electricity, too, private enterprise supplied Victorians' energy needs. Supply started in the 1880s Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS (Jika Jika) - I begin with the Melbourne Electric Supply Company which by expressing the concern of the opposition about commenced in 1899. Suburban and provincial the way the bill has been brought before the house. companies also delivered power, operating in parallel The bill was read a second time yesterday and the with some municipal electricity under.akings. The opposition was told that it would be dealt with establishment of the State Electricity Commission (SEC) today regardless of whether the opposition was in 1919 heralded the end of private electricity in ready, whether briefings had been provided and Victoria. In 1922, the SEC took over the electricity whether the opposition had had the opportunity to business of the North Melbourne Electric Tramways consult with its constituents. It is another indication and Lighting Company. In 1930, it took over the of the way the government treats this house with Melbourne Electric Supply Company's undertaking. absolute contempt and as though it is nothing more With the acquisition of the Electricity Supply Company than a rubber stamp. On that basis I move: of Victoria's business in 1931, the SEC and local councils wholly controlled the state's electricity supply That all the words after 'That' be omitted with the view industry. of inserting in place thereof 'this house refuses to read this bill a second time until the government provides a Hon. D. A. Nardella - What does that mean? proper briefing with adequate notice to the opposition and allows adequate time for the opposition to consult Hon. D. MeL. DAVIS - It means there has been on the ramifications of the bill and prepare a response.' an esteemed and successful history of electricity supply in Victoria. Before Mr David Davis leaves the chamber --

An article published in the National Journal of late Hon. D. MeL. Davis - I am only talking to the last year also states that in the United States of whip. America: ELECTRICITY INDUSTRY (LOY Y ANG B) BILL

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Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - I want to industry was a hotch-potch of private firms with address some of the issues he raised in his speech. small generating capacities - and often with Before I do that, however, I understand that the bill monopolies in country Victoria. is to be dealt with today because of some contractual obligations with Mission Energy that must be in Hon. C. A. Strong - This was in the 1930s. place by 1 May. That does not give the government an excuse for bringing this bill into the chamber and Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - That is what not allowing adequate time for the opposition to Mr David Davis was talking about. The SECV did a examine its full ramifications and to be able to phenomenal job when it took over responsibility for respond after consultation. The government was producing electricity throughout the state. It did not well aware of the time lines when it prepared the take too many years before 98 per cent of Victorians contracts for the sale of the remaining share of Loy had access to electricity. Its success was not YangB. replicated anywhere else in the world. More importantly, and this is the bottom line, in virtually I contrast the way the government is treating the every country town in which a private organisation opposition with the way the former Labor had been providing electricity, the price dropped government treated the current Minister for Finance significantly - in some cases, by 80 per cent. when legislation on Loy Yang B was being dealt Mr Strong nods his head in agreement because he with. Not only did the former Labor government knows what occurred. Mr David Davis ought to give extensive briefings about the contract with think more carefully about the history of the Mission Energy but it paid $15000 for consultants to industry before he tries to dress up his arguments as brief the then opposition so it would be fully some sort of revelation. satisfied about the nature of the sale. The other example he gave concerning the The government has come into this chamber and is United States of America was also flawed. Private trying to ram through this bill without allowing sector cooperatives produced electricity throughout proper scru.tiny. What makes the matter worse is the United States, although they concentrated their that when the measure was introduced in another supplies in high population areas. By the start of the place a whole raft of amendments were made to it Second World War about 30 per cent of the which significantly altered it. United States was not supplied with electricity. President Franklin Roosevelt introduced a program As the lead speaker for the opposition I was given a to allow cooperatives distributing electricity to be document earlier today headed 'Briefing note for the producers as well. He gave those cooperatives Treasurer'. I presume I was supposed to prepare for significant tax breaks - in other words, they were the debate and study the many amendments that funded by the taxpayers. Only then did the supply were moved in another place between the debate on of electricity become accessible throughout the notice of motion no. 3 and question time. whole country.

Hon. K. M. Smith - Get on with the debate. I do not mind Mr David Davis talking about the history of the industry, but he should also talk about Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - A reasoned the reality. If the argument is that we had an amendment has been moved. Parliament is being integrated industry but now we are changing to asked to ratify a substantial bill that involves something else, it should be put that way. It should significant amounts of money changing hands even not be made out to be something different. though the opposition has not been given either a reasonable briefing or the time to consider whether I ask for the indulgence of the house in reading my or not to support it. notes on the bill, particularly those on the Treasurer's amendments. In its original form the bill I take issue with Mr David Davis, the previous will facilitate the sale of the remaining share of the speaker, who tried to argue that somehow the Loy Yang B power station to give Edison Mission former State Electricity Commission could be Energy 100 per cent ownership. I understand the compared with the private organisations that amendments do not significantly change that preceded it. Mr Strong knows more about the original purpose. The principle features of the bill industry than Mr Davis. He knows the truth, which, are that it authorises the Treasurer to enter as most honourable members also know, is that arrangements to sell the remaining share of Loy prior to the establishment of the SECV the electricity Yang B, and it makes prOvisions for the allocation of ELECTRICITY INDUSTRY (LOY YANG B) BILL

Wednesday, 30 April 1997 COUNCIL 557 all property rights and liabilities of the SECV Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - 'Trust us', says relating to Loy Yang B at a date to be fixed. Mr Hartigan. They would be the famous last words, Presumably that is 1 May. Loy Yang A will acquire wouldn't they? That is probably what the the land associated with the Loy Yang mine from the government tells the Auditor-General, too: 'Trust us. SECV and have full responsibility for supplying coal Don't worry, we won't go after you!'. The last and infrastructure services to Loy Yang B. person the opposition trusts is Mr Hartigan.

The Loy Yang B take-or-pay supply contract will be Hon. W. A. N. Hartigan - I am hurt; cut to the terminated, and a Loy Yang A agreement will be quick! entered into with the establishment of a direct supplier and customer relationship. All documents Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - All right, second relating to the sale of Loy Yang B will be exempted last. Let's not split hairs. The opposition does not from freedom of information regulation. I am not know what this involves. However, it knows sure what it means when it says that the take-or-pay amazing secrecy has surrounded the details of the supply contract with the SECV will be terminated. I transaction - so much so that a clause in the understand from press reports that although the bill exempts all documents from Fa!. take-or-pay contract has been terminated, it has been replaced by another contract which guarantees a Hon. D. A. Nardella - Clause 13. certain price for electrical transmission. Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - Clause 13 I am Mr Strong, who I am sure has been consulted on told by one of the members on this side of the house these issues, may enlighten us about whether that is who has had an opportunity to briefly look at the the case. However, at this stage my understanding is bill. That is quite extraordinary. Everyone knows that although the original take-or-pay contract has that the normal FOr procedures exempt documents been terminated, it has been replaced by another which might be commercial in confidence because contract which will still have the effect of the FOI Act contains a protection for any such guaranteeing a certain amount of electricity on a documents. Yet this piece of legislation seeks to take-or-pay basis - or at least a price for the reinforce the secrecy of this government by ensuring electricity coming out of Loy Yang B. Since I have that just in case someone is able to get a document not received a full briefing, I look forward to which might not be commercial in confidence, that Mr Strong or Mr Hartigan briefing Parliament. that will not happen.

The sale of the remaining share of Loy Yang B That is the most extraordinary clause that has ever represents another step in the privatisation of been brought before the house. The idea that all electricity. It is difficult to make a judgment about documents relating to these transactions will be whether it is a good or bad deal. At face value the exempt from FOr is amazing. It is just another sale price seems to be fairly low, but the deal has the example of the secrecy of this government, its lack of take-or-pay contract. The Treasurer has not accountability and how it does not want to be adequately demonstrated exactly what Victorians scrutinised. Victorians will never know whether or will get as a result of the sale, so I look forward to not we got a good deal- no-one can find out Mr Strong explaining that. because it is all protected under Far. All we are left with is Mr Hartigan's 'Trust me'. The Treasurer appears to be saying that the net effect is between zero and $150 million, and that although Hon. W. A. N. Hartigan - You can't do much the state is getting only somewhere in that vicinity to better than that. sell the remaining 49 per cent benefits will accrue as a result of other contracts winding up over a long Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - Mr Hartigan period. may think that.

It is difficult to judge unless one sees the modelling, Hon. D. McL. Davis interjected. the electricity consumption projections in terms of what proportion Loy Yang B will get, the differential Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - I am not going to prices and a whole range of factors. Therefore, I am take up that ridiculous interjection. All I can say is not in a position to say if this is a good or bad deal. that for this government to be talking about lies or untruths is the biggest joke ever heard. Every day Hon. W. A. N. Hartigan - Trust us. this government tells a set of lies to the people in this ELECTRICITY INDUSTRY (LOY Y ANG B) BILL

558 COUNCIL Wednesday, 30 April 1997 place and to other Victorians about all the promises Hon. R. M. Hallam - No, it was not. it has made and which it has now gone back on. Victorians understand who is telling the truth and Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - We started who is lying. debate on this bill around 5 p.m. I don't know how long I have been speaking and I don't know for how I emphasise that the opposition believes this debate long the previous speakers spoke. should not be occurring today and that adequate time should be given for a full examination by the Hon. R. M. Hallam interjected. opposition. It is appalling that the opposition is unable to make an informed judgment about the Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - I will not be deal because it cannot get access to any information. sidetracked by the contemptuous way the government treats this house. It is not simply a Hon. D. MeL. Davis - You got a briefing matter of getting a briefing, as the minister well document. knows. It is a matter of getting a briefing, working out what the briefing means, preparing significant Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - We have not had notes, consulting other people and coming back to a briefing. make a reasoned argument. It is a matter of talking to other people -- Hon. D. MeL. Davis - You just read it out before. Hon. C. A. Strong - An expert like you would Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - No, we have not not need to do that. had a briefing. Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - The opposition Hon. D. MeL. Davis - You said you had a consults with people within the industry. It consults briefing document entitled 'Briefing Note for the with employers and employees. Treasurer'. Hon. B. T. Pullen interjected. Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - No, what I got-- Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - As my colleague said, it is a total indictment of the way this house is Honourable members interjecting. being nul. It is not good enough to say that briefings were given in the lower house and that that is the Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - If you think that end of the matter. getting a note entitled 'Briefing Note for the Treasurer' -- Hon. R. M. Hallam interjected.

Hon. D. MeL. Davis - There you are - 'Briefing Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - I am glad the Note for the Treasurer'. minister is not saying that. In this instance the most honest thing to say is that the opposition should Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - Is that your have been notified that this bill had to be passed, definition of giving the opposition a briefing on a and that should have occurred last week so the bill? I don't think it is the minister's definition. opposition could have had a briefing last week. It would have been happy to accommodate the Hon. R. M. Hallam - No, it is not. government on that basis. That is not what has occurred. To adjourn debate on the bill in order to Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - It is not. have a briefing over dinner does not rectify the problems with this bill that I am trying to bring to Hon. R. M. Hallam - But you were offered a the attention of the house. briefing. This does not show the house in a good light. It Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - I was offered a shows that this is the second-class house; it is the briefing sometime between the end of question time house you consult only when you have to and the at 3.30 p.m. and the debate on this bill which was house you treat seriously only when you have to. due to commence at 4.30 p.m. That is when I was-- Hon. K. M. Smith interjected. ELECTRICITY INDUSTRY (LOY YANG B) BILL

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Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - The whole point There is a difference in the way the government and is that I am not the one degrading this house, it is the opposition look at these things. The opposition people like Mr Smith who allow this kind of thing to has consistently argued against the privatisation of occur and who continue to treat the house with the electricity industry. The minister and I have absolute contempt who are degrading this house. If certainly had some debates in this house about the members of the government did not treat this house virtue of the idea. With hindSight, I would have to with contempt they would not treat it as a rubber say that the price received for the components of the stamp. There would be proper debate and briefings SECV was more than what I expected. That assisted and the opposition would have adequate time to in the reduction of state debt, but let us be very clear consider its position. that while debt is decreasing Victorians are losing assets. It is not a one-way street. It is not very As I said before it is virtually impossible to make a different to getting rid of all your debt by selling fully informed judgment as to how good or bad this your house. You can do that, but then you don't deal is for the people of Victoria. The agreement have a house. A similar situation exists here. More cannot be judged on a stand-alone basis. Under the than anything it shows the underlying strength of deal Edison Mission Energy will obtain 49 per cent the Victorian asset base that was built up over of Loy Yang B for $84 million, as I understand it. In generations of governments. The fact is that the exchange for that it will forgo the benefits it has SECV was and is a very valuable business and its received Wlder a take-or-pay contract with the SECV component parts are still a very valuable business. group. Hon. R. M. Hallam - In its component parts, The government is happy to accept $84 million for even more so. 49 per cent of Loy Yang B when it is obviously worth a lot more than that. One cannot make a judgment Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - Perhaps, I do not about what sort of capitalised price the government know. It is an arguable point, but I agree that it is a received in relation to the 49 per cent W1less one valuable asset. The Kennett government did not knows the other terms of the agreement. In other create that valuable asset; it was created by words, by the removal of the take-or-pay part of the Victorians over generations. All the Kennett contract what else, if anything, has been put in place government has done is sell valuable state assets, and what are the projected financial benefits over including the electricity business. As a result of those time? sales debt will be reduced; however, a reduction in the asset base will also occur, and that has long-term Some modelling would have to be done to figure out effects as well. It is necessary to be mindful of both those numbers. I do not have access to those sides of that equation. numbers so I am Wlable to say whether $84 million is a good or bad price. That is a central issue which Some people would be aware that when the original the government should be prepared to address and 40 per cent of Loy Yang B was sold all of the provide at least some indicative figure of what it documents, induding the commercial-in-<:onfidence thinks the Victorian people have saved as a result of documents, were provided to the former shadow changed arrangements in the sale of the 49 per cent spokesmen on this area: the current Treasurer, the of Loy Yang B. current Speaker of the Legislative Assembly, the honourable member for Polwarth in another place, It could be asked in these times of privatisation of who is a former Minister for Finance, and the current the electricity industry, what is the point of the Minister for Finance. The consultants were told to government hanging on to 49 per cent of a power brief them comprehensively and they spent a lot of station given that it is selling all the others? There time going over the documents. A significant might be something in that argument, but when the amoWlt of the cost of briefing the opposition on that original 40 per cent of Loy Yang B was sold to transaction was borne by the taxpayer. Edison Mission Energy it was sold on the basis of a very carefully considered public policy proposition Honourable members are entitled to contrast that where that sale still allowed a degree of public approach to the approach of the present control over the production of energy through that government, which has not even been prepared to power station. It was not very much, I grant that, but brief the opposition within a reasonable time frame the government maintained some degree of public on the general thrust of the legislation, let alone control. provide the sort of briefings that were provided by ELECTRICITY INDUSTRY (LOY Y ANG B) BILL

560 COUNCIL Wednesday, 30 April 1997 the former government in relation to the 40 per cent That example is just the tip of the iceberg. In fact, sale. there are now differences in the electricity prices paid by companies that are close together There has been a lot of debate, including in this geographically. For example, companies in Werribee house, about the separation of the SECV into a can pay a lot more for electricity than companies in number of component parts. I again make the point Footscray, depending on which power company is for the benefit of Mr Strong, with whom I have had supplying them. These cases have been documented considerable debate about these issues in the past, already, so what will be the situation when we go to that at the end of the day the proof of the pudding as a full competitive model in 2ooo? The opposition has to whether Victorians will begin to enjoy lower or for some time predicted what I think is the greatest increased electricity prices will come in 2000. sell-out of country Victorians by this government - Neither Mr Strong nor I is in a position to answer that is, that there will be no regulated electricity that question now. price in country Victoria.

The opposition has consistently predicted that Anyone with any understanding of the industry electricity prices will most likely increase, and would know that it obviously costs more to deliver certainly there will be a huge disparity between the electricity to consumers in country Victoria than to price of electricity in country Victoria compared to metropolitan Melbourne users. The consequences the price in metropolitan Melbourne. That stands to will almost invariably be that country Victorians will reason when one considers the haulage and other have to pay more than their city cousins for costs that will be incurred. Honourable members electricity. The way the government gets around that should clearly understand - this is again a point of is to argue on some spurious notion that everybody difference between Mr Strong and the government, will have cheaper electricity but that it will not be as and I - that although five distribution companies cheap for country Victorians. The opposition rejects will be established currently there is virtually no that completely. competition between them and it is not expected that that situation will improve in the future. Hon. R. M. Hallam - At least you're consistent.

It is strange that the government should establish Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - The opposition five geographical monopolies in Victoria to does not think that will occur. It believes there will distribute electricity and then carry on about how it be significant differences in price between the wants to bring in competition in respect of the country and the city. When one examines the prices Auditor-General. The truth is that after 2000 that have been paid for the electricity businesses in electricity consumers in this state are likely to Victoria one can see that for those various businesses experience Significant increases in electricity prices. to be viable the price of electricity will have to be That will be particularly the case in respect of significant. Electricity prices will not drop in 2000. domestic consumers but will also apply to business and other consumers. Already anomalies are I think few people also understand that in a sense occurring, and Mr Strong would be aware of some of there will always be a monopoly because the those. distribution rights within geographic areas are actually monopolies. It is only at the retailing end of Recently while in Geelong I spoke to a company that the business that there is even the possibility of has decided to make a significant investment in competition. The haulage costs within distribution Geelong which will involve quite a number of jobs. zones are all payable to the one distribution It indicated to me that it uses a lot of electricity. company and form part of the cost. People who have When making inquiries it found that if it had located some basic understanding of how the price will be in Dandenong it would have paid about $150 000 a worked out will recognise now that the level of year less for electricity. It had to make a commercial competition will probably be no more than about judgment about whether to move to Dandenong, 10 per cent, or at most 20 per cent of the overall price and in the end the Oty of Greater Geelong was of electricity. forced to come to the party. The company would have been able to get its electricity cheaper on the We have concerns about electricity distribution and other side of town and Geelong has therefore made generation that have not been addressed. We believe arrangements to compensate it to some extent in that it is the people of Victoria who will really pay for regard. privatisation through their electricity bills over the next 30 or 40 years or however long it takes to repay ELECTRICITY INDUSTRY (LOY Y ANG B) BILL

Wednesday, 30 April 1997 COUNCn.. 561 the debts of the private companies. The had a briefing'. In fact I understand a briefing was government's finances might look better because of offered - with a delayed debate - but the offer was the sale but the debt will still be there. refused. If there had been a genuine interest in finding out what it was all about it would have been I have not had an opportunity to look at the bill or to sensible, logical, fair and reasonable for the Leader properly understand its consequences. It is not only of the Opposition to avail himself of the briefing the problem of the lack of a briefing, it is also the rather than simply refusing it. problem of the government not being prepared to tell the opposition what is the benefit of this sale. All In terms of the likely impact of the bill on the state, the opposition knows is that on one side of the once again I refer to the press release issued on ledger the state will get $84 million for 49 per cent of 1 April, which sets out the fundamental details. It Loy Yang B and on the other side of the ledger highlights the estimate of the value of the contract to Mission Energy is paying something like $1.2 billion Victoria over the remaining 3D-year contract life of for the other 51 per cent. Obviously the government more than $2 billion. That is the scale of the savings will have to demonstrate a benefit of at least we are talking about, and that value has been known $1 billion over a period. since 1 April. Again the Leader of the Opposition is crying wolf when he says that he could not consider Hon. W. A. N. Hartigan - As against the the bill without knowing what the indicative saving pre-existing conditions? would be. The indicative saving was put on the table on 1 April for all the citizens of the state to see. Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - That is right, and that has not been demonstrated. The opposition has Hon. T. C. Theophanous - What is it? not seen any figures that show that to be the case so it has no idea whether it will be of benefit to the Hon. C. A. STRONG - I told you it was in the people of Victoria. order of $2 billion over the 30 years of the contract life remaining. That was stated on 1 April. I would On that basis, I urge the house to adopt the reasoned be surprised if Mr Theophanous, who has a great amendment and to put a stop to this bill so that we interest in electricity privatisation, was not aware of can come back next week or the week after and that! I would be surprised if he had not read it in the debate it properly. At this stage the opposition is not press release, which was reported in the media, only recommending that the reasoned amendment unless he had not done his research. Perhaps it again be adopted, but also on the information available to shows the inadequacy of the research done by the it is opposing the bill because the government has Leader of the Opposition. not demonstrated it is serving the public interest by selling 49 per cent of the Loy Yang B power station It was also raised that when the original contract for for $84 million. Loy Yang B was entered into, the then Labor government facilitated an interchange with the then Hon. C. A. STRONG (Higinbotham) - I should opposition on the details of the contract. I highlight like to clear up a few points made by the Leader of the fact that the situation is quite different today. the Opposition to show the uselessness of his When the original deal was done in 1991-92 it was reasoned amendment. Mr Theophanous raised the first time there had been a sale of a major various points: the lack of knowledge of the electricity asset in this state. It was something new, agreement to sell Loy Yang B and the lack of and the sale was on the basis of a 33-year knowledge of some indicative figure of the likely take-or-pay contract. As everybody knew in 1992 savings. When this sale was made public on when the deal was entered into, the former Labor 1 April - which is some time ago now given that government was hardly likely to be around for the this is the end of April- there would have been next 33 years, let alone the next 33 weeks, so it was sufficient time for somebody with only fair, just and reasonable for some consultation Mr Theophanous's longstanding interest and to take place with members of the likely next knowledge in electricity privatisation to have taken government. the initiative to find out what this was all about. Mr Theophanous's suggestion of his requiring the It is a little bit like crying wolf to wait until virtually same sort of briefing is ridiculous! Something like the last day of the month, when an announcement eight or nine electricity assets have been sold since was made on the first day of the month, and then to then and it is absolute rubbish for Mr Theophanous say, 'We don't know anything about it. We haven't to say that this is something new and different. ELECTRICITY INDUSTRY (LOY Y ANG B) BILL

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The government has a clear philosophy on the pleasure to support the bill because it undoes one of privatisation of electricity assets. The competitive the worst deals ever done. arrangements tmder which the electricity industry will operate are well known to this house and to It is worth providing a bit of history about how the Mr Theophanous. As he said this afternoon, the deal came about. In 1991-92 the former Labor house has debated this legislation time and again administration had bankrupted the state. Victoria over the past four years. Even if he does not agree had a half-built power station that it could not finish with what is being done with electricity privatisation because the state was bankrupt. An arrangement there is no way that Mr Theophanous can claim that was put in place to buy the money to complete the he does not know a lot of the details because we power station. It was a terrible thing to do to the have had this debate many times before. state and the electricity industry.

I could not let pass another issue mentioned by Hon. T. C. Theophanous - You should not Mr Theophanous, when he cried wolf again. A clear criticise Mr Hallam like that! Who agreed to the deal? offer was made about a briefing, yet he would rather refuse the briefing and portray himself as the poor Hon. C. A. STRONG - It wasn't the minister's victim who had to move a reasoned amendment deal, it was your deal. stating that the opposition had not had time to consider the bill. It is absolutely ludicrous because Hon. T. C. Theophanous - He signed it! the details were annotmced on 1 April. Hon. C. A. STRONG - Who organised the deal Mr Theophanous also made a point about the likely and who caused the problem? An amount of money price path of electricity beyond 2000 when total had to be raised, but this deal was bad because the deregulation will be in place. He said that prices buyers were asked what they would give us and may go up or down. There is no doubt prices will what they wanted to charge for the electricity. As a change and the key issue concerns how they will result an electricity price was set that crippled the change in Victoria compared with other states. That former SEC because it was virtually unsustainable at is the test. What is important is our comparative more than $60 a megawatt hour on a 33-year position, not whether prices go up or down. It will contract. not hurt to restate that in 1982 Victoria had the lowest electricity prices vis-a-vis the rest of Hon. T. C. Theophanous intezjected. Australia. When the coalition government came to power in 1992 following 10 years of rule by Hon. C. A. STRONG - Whose deal was it? It Mr Theophanous's inefficient and hopeless cronies was Mr Theophanous's deal. His government we had the highest electricity rates of any mainland caused the problem and it is his responsibility. state. As a result of our reforms Victoria will have a Mr Theophanous should not dare say that the competitive edge. It already has a competitive edge current government did it, because it is all the fault over the other states, and that is the key thing. It of the former government! gives me enormous personal pleasure to support the bill. Hon. T. C. Theophanous - You signed it off. Stockdale signed the agreement. Hon. T. C. Theophanous - Are you on the bills committee? Hon. C. A. STRONG - It is your fault. The 33-year contract for Loy Yang A resulted in a price Hon. C. A. STRONG - In a previous life I had of well over $60 a megawatt hour when the then an involvement with the deal and I understood pool price was some $45 a megawatt hour. clearly what was being done. I was totally opposed Honourable members should know that at that time to the deal because it was wrong in every way. It Victoria's electricity prices were the highest on the was an enormous millstone arotmd the necks of the eastern seaboard. That price of $60 a megawatt hour state and the electricity industry. I saw then and I can be compared with the current pool price of some still see that it was a very bad deal. $25 a megawatt hour.

Hon. T. C. Theophanous - What, this one? Honourable members interjecting.

Hon. C. A. STRONG - No, the previous one, the Hon. C. A. STRONG - That is the legacy the deal that this bill undoes. It gives me enormous former Labor government left to Victoria. The ELECTRICITY IND(;STRY (LOY Y ANG B) BILL

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Treasurer has negotiated Victorian taxpayers out of arrangement because it gives some surety or floor to an outrageous deal. I had some doubts as to whether the pool price that Loy Yang B is likely to obtain, the Treasurer could get the state out of the deal, but and the state will be able to buy electricity at an he has been successful and I congratulate him on his advantageous price to meet its Alcoa commitments. success. Another ongoing legacy of the Alcoa deal which the Hon. T. C. Tbeophanous - Would you sign it former Labor government forced on Victorian off? taxpayers will also be addressed. The bill will adjust the pool price to allow money to be taken from the Hon. C. A. STRONG - I would sign off this bill pool to subsidise the value of electricity that the because it has produced a wonderful result. state, through the old SECV shell, has to buy to meet its Alcoa contract. Although the bill will crystallise Honourable members interjecting. the loss on Loy Yang B, increase the competitive market, remove all the risks flowing from the The ACTING PRESIDENT 33-year contract and put a floor under the Alcoa (Hon. B. W. Bishop) - Order! Mr Theophanous has tariff through the hedge arrangement, we cannot been interjecting constantly from the time Mr Strong forget that Victorian electricity consumers will have started speaking. He has spoken on the bill, and I to pay apprOximately $200 million per year to ask him to desist interjecting. compensate for the Alcoa deal.

Hon. C. A. STRONG - The bill lifts the burden Hon. D. MeL. Davis - For 33 years? imposed by the shonky deals entered into by the Labor Party. Another reason why I am so pleased to Hon. C. A. STRONG - I think the contract has support the bill is that it will enable Loy Yang B to some 20 years to go, but there is little benefit in it for take part in the highly competitive electrical reform electricity consumers because they are paying for the process. There was no logic in having one generator deal. It gives me enormous pleasure to see the old with a guaranteed cash flow while the rest of the Loy Yang B deal unwound and another generator industry was operating in a competitive put into the competitive arrangements. Honourable environment, driving down the price of electricity to members cannot afford to overlook the fact that Loy make the state more competitive. Yang B is the most modem and efficient generator in Australia. Now it is in the competitive market it will The take-or-pay contract has been crystallised and give Victoria a further competitive advantage in the value exchanged for the residual 49 per cent of electricity generating vis-a-vis the other states. the asset. Under the original arrangement, only 40 per cent of the asset but 100 per cent of the control This is no small deal; we are talking about a saving was transferred to Edison Mission Energy. What a to the Victorian taxpayer of something like $2 billion crazy deal that was. Why give away all the rights to over the next 30 years. We are also talking about the and control over the industry while selling only other key factor - risk. Any contract which is to run 40 per cent! Crystallising the state's overpayments for 30 years in an environment in which technology on the 33-year contract and exchanging them for the is changing so rapidly must have considerable risks. state's remaining equity will enable Loy Yang B to The government has transferred that risk to the take part in the competitive market. private sector and taken it from the backs of taxpayers. The hedge arrangement, which is also part of the arrangement, will give Victorian taxpayers I have much pleasure in supporting the bill for the enormous security because it will protect them from reasons I have outlined, and I urge honourable the other outrageous rort perpetrated by the former members to vote against the reasoned amendment, Labor government on Victorians - the Alcoa project which has no justification. The arrangements of the in Portland. This arrangement is already costing Loy Yang B deal have been on the public record for Victorians many millions of dollars each year. A dose to a month. All the details are there and are hedge is provided on the amount of power used by known by the people who see themselves as experts. Alcoa. In essence it means that when the pool price For opposition members to say they have not been falls to a level approaching the price Alcoa pays, the briefed and cannot consider the bill when a briefing hedge arrangement will come into force allowing was offered and refused only minutes beforehand is Edison Mission Energy to use its power to meet the absolute hypocrisy. I urge honourable members to state's obligations to Alcoa. This is a win-win reject the reasoned amendment. ELECTRICITY INDUSTRY (LOY YANG B) BILL

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Hon. PAT POWER Oika Jika) - I will take the and knowledge. Despite that, I still believe it is opportunity to make some comments about the bill reasonable for there to be substantive debate on this and the reasoned amendment. My interest in legislation which, as the clause notes say, is to , speaking on this matter is triggered simply by the facilitate the sale of Loy Yang B. I acknowledge the explanatory notes to clause I, which state that the strongly held view in the community about whether clause: the merits of the Mission Energy deal put in place under the Labor government were good or bad; at ... sets out the purpose of the act, which is to facilitate the time I had particularly strong views about that. the sale of Loy Yang B power station. There cannot be any doubt that the decision to I want to get involved with that issue. provide electricity to Alcoa in the way that was formulated at the time can be looked upon as being Apart from making some general comments I shall generous, but that was a decision taken by the not be drawn into the details of Mr Theophanous's government of the day in order to provide reasoned amendment. Members will be aware that stimulation and regional economic opportunity. the Legislative Council is cw-rently receiving a While it is reasonable for members on both sides of degree of attention and scrutiny which has perhaps the house to put forward views about the Alcoa not always been the case. As I indicated in a issue I do not think those views should be put previous debate today, my view is that the forward without there being an acknowledgment of Legislative Council provides members with a the upside, if you like, of providing energy to the wonderful opportunity to debate legislation, Portland Alcoa site. Although it has some ongoing especially legislation as substantive as this. Any financial commitments, the deal brought economic measure which completes the sale of a power station activity to south-west Victoria which would not in Victoria is a major piece of legislation. have been possible without it.

While I recognise the government's need for this That is an important way for this chamber to legislation to be passed today - I do not think approach discussions about infrastructure. There can anybody disputes that that is a reality that cannot be be no doubt that when a decision is made about the ignored - the fact that the need exists means there level of financial support for major infrastructure should have been a stronger preparedness by the there will always be very strong views about government to ensure there was no reason why the whether the level of economic support is justifiable. opposition could not participate in the debate. I say That is a healthy debate; it should always occur and that not to get involved in the issues relating to the there should be ongoing assessments. However, I do reasoned amendment but to point out that if the not believe it is proper or healthy for a chamber such Legislative Council is to enjoy more popular support as the council to pay attention to just one aspect of among the community and is to be seen as a the consequences of such a decision. chamber in which there is relatively detailed and learned debate, we must all play a part in ensuring In relation to that I shall make passing references to that that happens. the City Link project. Without wishing to go into detail there is the same capacity to look at one side In concluding my reference to the reasoned of the issue rather than both. There is an enormous amendment I point out that we could all learn from level of ongoing concern in the community about the today's experience and that if in the future another level of financial support that has been provided to piece of legislation needs to be passed to meet a the City Link project. The other side of that which reality we all understand government members must be acknowledged is the contribution that should remember that providing briefings at the infrastructure will make to traffic movements in and earliest opportunity would assist all members to through the city of Melbourne. I would be participate in the debate in a relatively learned way. disappointed if members of the opposition I will leave it at that. - evaluated the City Link project looking only at the enormous costs of the project rather than weighing The comments made by Mr Strong were quite up those costs against any benefits flowing from interesting. The opposition acknowledges that in his them. I make that comment to highlight my view previous working life Mr Strong was closely about Alcoa. associated with the workings of the former State Electricity Commission of Victoria and that due As someone who was deeply involved in policy attention should, therefore, be paid to his comments work for the Australian Labor Party and with one of ELECTRICITY INDUSTRY (LOY Y ANG B) BILL

Wednesday, 30 April 1997 COUNCIL 565 the major unions in the power industry I had very level of equity and fairness will Victorians clear and strong views about the appropriateness of participate in those savings? the Edison Mission Energy decision of the time. A former member of this house the Honourable David As I indicated to the Minister for Finance today in White and I had many long discussions about the relation to another matter, I always acknowledge in effectiveness and desirability of the decision the then debates such as these that they provide an Labor government was contemplating and which opportunity for the opposition to indicate that it has was carried through. My concern then is still my a different philosophical view about certain matters. concern now - that is, despite the support I am sure I repeat that one of the great opportunities this I share with the great majority of people for the house provides is for there to be detailed debate and capacity and potential of the national grid, I do not discussion. accept that it is necessary to privatise the generation and distribution of electricity for the benefits of the I express concern on behalf of the opposition about national grid to flow to all Victorians. just who is funding the very significant savings Mr Strong referred to. The opposition wants to There can be no question that the structure of the participate in some assessment of whether State Electricity Commission which existed after the Victorians are disadvantaged as a consequence of Second World War could no longer be sustained in those savings being available. As I said before, there the modern economy. The administrative structures should be an assessment of whether all Victorians that currently exist will continue into 2000 and are eligible to receive the possible benefits as a beyond. It must be understood that many people in consequence of those savings. There can be no the power industry were anxious for the generation dispute in the short term that a significant and distribution of electricity to remain in public proportion of the savings will be used for the ownership and control but for the management of retirement of debt. Any responsible manager, that to be moved forward in a way to enable Victoria whether it is somebody looking after a household or to gain the competitive advantage as a consequence somebody looking after a major enterprise, would of the national grid. My concern is that it was not want that to be the case. necessary to restructure in the way that the government of the day did, and my opposition still Sitting suspended 6.30 p.m. until 8.02 p.m. remains today. Hon. PAT POWER - I shall make a few It is absolutely critical that a utility as essential as concluding remarks. There can be no doubt that the electricity remain in public ownership in order that privatisation of Loy Yang B and other sections of the not just the economic benefits can flow to the state former SECV will have the financial upsides to but that the range of services Victorians enjoyed which Mr Strong referred. In supporting the under public ownership can continue to be enjoyed. Electricity Industry (Loy Yang B) Bill the Despite the structures which have been put in place government should pay very close attention to how and as a consequence of the privatisation program it the financial returns from the sale of Loy Yang B will not be possible for any government to guarantee might be applied. Although I acknowledge that that all Victorians will have access to electricity at downsizing in the Latrobe Valley was commenced what used to be known as the uniform tariff. That under the former government, I strongly urge matter must be weighed up when discussing government ministers to recognise - I have no legislation such as this. doubt that the Minister for Finance will do so - the social issues in the Latrobe Valley. There can be no I respect the views Mr Strong has put forward in question that communities in the Latrobe Valley relation to the economic advantage Victoria will gain have paid a very substantial price for the as a consequence of these decisions. While I might downsizing and subsequent privatisation of the have a different view at the margins I do not dispute former State Electricity Commission of Victoria. that one way of evaluating this privatisation is to acknowledge that there will be economic gains. My Hon. W. R. Baxter - Pity they didn't think about concern is that there needs to be an assessment and a that when they were on strike all those times. valuation of just where those economic savings have come from. What has been given up to make those Hon. PAT POWER - I am happy to take on economic savings available? It is a question of to board Mr Baxter's point that somehow the level of whom do those economic savings go and at what unemployment in the Latrobe Valley is associated with industrial action rather than with the ELECTRICITY INDUSTRY (LOY YANG B) BILL

566 COUNCll., Wednesday, 30 April 1997 downsizing which was initiated under the former been considered part of the SEC as a whole and the government and which has continued under this fact that some of the problems that arose from the government as a consequence of privatisation. I was 33 year take-or-pay agreement would be obscured seeking to refer generously to the need for the by absorption of the fixed prices into the total SEC government to pay attention to the unemployment structure. and social realities of the Latrobe Valley, in light of the contribution made by Mr Strong, who That worried me because, although privatisation of acknowledged that very substantial earnings will other generating stations had produced a substantial accrue to the state as a consequence of these reduction in generating costs, the government was decisions. I plead with the government to consider committed to long-term prices from Loy Yang B for how that revenue can best be invested for the benefit so many years into the future that as recently as last of all Victorians, so that the money is used year electricity prices were somewhere of the order responsibly. In making that decision, appropriate of two and a half times the price at which generators treatment - not necessarily special treatment - were supplying the industry in 1996. should be given to the Latrobe Valley. One asks oneself, what sort of an arrangement There can be no question that the levels of would lead to this dreadful distortion? Why would employment in the power industry will never again anybody in their right mind want to do it, even if it return to the levels of the past, but we in this was capable of being hidden in the SEC? I looked chamber and the government should consider ways back at some of the newspapers, including one that in which the economy in the Latrobe Valley can be has since gone out of business. The Sunday Observer supported and stimulated and ways in which of 27 November 1988 states: employment opportunities can be created. To visit the Latrobe Valley now is a very sad and dispiriting The Minister for Industry, Technology and Resources, thing to do. The lack of employment opportunities Mr Evan Walker, has denied suggestions that the has caused major difficulties for many families, from government's pre-election announcement on the Loy domestic violence to family breakdowns and all the Yang power project had been an attempt to buy votes other undesirable social behaviours consistent with in the Latrobe Valley. that kind of social phenomena. However, he said: I conclude by urging members of the government to consider positively what can be done for the Latrobe The government had been' quite concerned about the Valley and to acknowledge that the Latrobe Valley seat of MOIwell' and agreed that the announcement, commwlity has paid an enormous price for the which was made two weeks before the election, was downsizing of the former government and the politically motivated. privatisation that has continued since. That was notwithstanding a parliamentary Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN (Geelong) - I am committee recommendation that Loy Yang B not happy to join in supporting the government's proceed because the capacity was not seen as actions. I understand the concern of the Leader of immediately necessary, and even at that stage the the Opposition about the short notice and I have government was clearly in major financial some sympathy for his position. difficulties in terms of borrOwings.

Hon. T. C. Theophanous - That is very gracious Mr Theophanous gets a mention in the Age of 7 May of you, Mr Hartigan. 1991. Of course, The Honourable Mr White had one overriding consideration with Loy Yang B - he had Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN - I am very gracious to find money to finish it but could not get any and charitable in the extreme, Mr Theophanous; I money from the state government. At that stage can't help it, that's the way I am. This legislation will Mr Theophanous was chairing the committee as a bring about the resolution of one of the less shining member of the Socialist Left faction. I was trying to examples of Labor's administration. When the work out what Socialist Left was, whether it was coalition was first elected I spoke to various people Byzantine. in the government about the arrangements that existed with Loy Yang B. At that time I was Hon. T. C. Theophanous - I will not make any concerned about the difficulties we would face in comments about my previous factions. privatising the SEC when Loy Yang B had always ELECTRICITY INDUSTRY (LOY Y ANG B) BILL

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Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN - It is more difficult There was a clear understanding of what the to understand what is going on in the factions of the purpose of selling 40 per cent of Loy Yang B was - Labor Party than to unravel the complexities of Loy that is, to fund the completion of that project. Yang B. Mr Theophanous chaired a committee to see what could be done to avoid selling any element of Hon. T. C. Theophanous - Nobody disagrees LOY Yang B to private enterprise. Mr White was with that. making the point -- Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN - There was very Hon. T. C. Theophanous - What did I say? little benefit to Victorians and there was much concern expressed about the fact that the deal tied Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN - The article states: Victoria into paying a large premium over a 33-year period, as has now been demonstrated. Mr Theophanous argues there is no need to sell Loy Yang B but it appears that he and his committee will The point I am trying to make is that the issue face a difficult task in convincing the government. surrounding the privatisation of Loy Yang B was whether it would produce a high cost to the It then politely dismisses Mr White's reductive Victorian consumer because of the financial argument by saying that the six no-go options are, in constraints of bad management. effect, just being used to set up option seven, the sell-off. The article continues: The sale of 40 per cent of Loy Yang B was not really a sale. To all intents and purposes Mission Energy According to Mr Theophanous, the problem, 'if there is was the owner of it and the government was a one' is not so much one of servicing debt, but of shareholder. Technically the government had no say funding capital within the global borrowing limits. in the alteration, the pricing or the outcome. I agree that Mr Theophanous did not want to sell it, but I Do you agree with that? suppose in retrospect he had to because of financial constrain ts. Hon. T. C. Theophanous - That is true. The difficulties the government faced up to in Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN - Why did you sell accommodating Loy Yang B in the construction of a it? It was not to obtain any benefit for the good privatised SEC were that the prices from the people of Victoria, it was to do more with obtaining generators were substantially lower than the prices capital to complete the construction of Loy Yang B. the government is required to pay Mission Energy. The consequence was that the government had to Hon. T. C. Theophanous - In effect, we sold arrange a relatively artificial tax arrangement to what was not yet built, when you think about it. average out the price over all the distributors. The important thing is that the government has bought Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN - On 27 May 1992 its way out of that take-or-pay 33-year contract, and we move on, but not dreadfully quickly. In the Age it is now about 28 years. of that date, John Marsden reports: Hon. T. C. Theophanous - You still have a Across the entire output of Loy Yang B, the cost penalty take-or-pay component. facing Victorian industry and consumers is therefore at least around $100 million each year for the 30 years. But Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN - The commitment the penalties are actually worse, increasing over the with regard to the aluminium smelter is the only duration of the contract, since while the contract price arrangement the government has, and it is not a is fixed at 5.4 cents, competitive plants in New South take-or-pay arrangement. The issue is not with Loy Wales and potentially in Victoria will be increasing Yang B, the issue is the aluminium problem that has their productivity. not yet been resolved. I do not think Mr Theophanous would like me to run through the If New South Wales generators or best-practice brown Alcoa problem. Even Mr White was not prepared to coal plants were to achieve only 2 per cent productivity debate that it was a good decision. You have growth a year, the cost penalty rises to more than forgotten him, Mr Theophanous, and I suggest that $200 million a year. is wise. ELECTRICITY INDUSTRY (LOY YANG B) BILL

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Hon. T. C. Theophanous - Why don't you tell One of the issues raised by Mr Power was concern us about the legacy you left with Alcoa when you about what will happen to prices in the future. I am left government. not in a position to predict with accuracy what will happen, but I believe the competitive pressures plus Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN - I do not recall any the free enterprise attitude of the distributors will twisting of Mr White's arm about Alcoa to actually start to bring into play other services that will be sign in secret one of the most stupid deals ever able to use the common fixed costs and common heard of. facilities. There is more than half a chance that a whole range of services, such as the issuing of billing Hon. T. C. Theophanous - The Treasurer did invoices and meter readings, will be done for all the not have to sign the Loy Yang B deal either. utility services using the same equipment. A range of services is starting to use the base facilities in Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN - He had to because country Victoria, and I believe that will be beneficial. he was committed to it. He did not attempt to walk away from the decision made by a Labor Hon. Pat Power - Our concern is whether that government that was desperate for funding. The fact becomes a saving delivered to the consumer or a is that Loy Yang B is now part of a competitive profit taken by the provider. environment. Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN - The level of Hon. T. C. Theophanous interjected. competition will dictate how that is shared and we will be doing what we can to ensure that the level of Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN - You are not sure competition is at its highest. It has worked well so because it does not suit you to be sure. Loy Yang B is far. There is a substantial degree of competition in part of a competitive environment, it is not only these services. Mr Theophanous doubts that the generating power in Victoria but will face up to price of electricity is likely in the future to be subject competition from New South Wales. to fierce competition and therefore produce benefits to all Victorians. I take the opposite view. I guess we Hon. T. C. Theophanous - Are you sure there is will both know the answer with the passage of time. no take-or-pay component? All of the things we anticipate in the future encourage me to believe that the price of electricity Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN - None to the best will come down in real terms. of my knowledge. In relation to the spread of the benefit of the sale of Hon. T. C. Theophanous - That is not my these assets, Mr Theophanous commented they were understanding. valuable assets. We were having a discussion earlier in the day on opposition business about the Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN - I do not believe Auditor-General and the subject came up there. One there is a take-or-pay arrangement left. So far as the of the things Mr Theophanous must appreciate is government is concerned it will get the normal that the value of assets has nothing to do with how market price with Loy Yang B so that it can much they cost to construct but rather what they are substantially sell its electricity. That ensures there is capable of earning. The asset valuation placed upon competitive pressure because Mission Energy is a the generation and distribution of electricity is not competent operator and should be able to exercise related to the physical assets but to the expectation much greater productivity and under more of the revenue stream, so it has more to do with the competitive pressure in a situation where currently competence of the management than it has with the supply exceeds demand. physical investment.

Over the next 10 years or more supply will exceed Hon. T. C. Theophanous - What is the point? demand and there will be a consequent substantial downward pressure on prices. In addition, the Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN - The point is that eastern grid will come into play and, as is required, Mr Theophanous said the SEC was a great there will be an electricity flow from New South investment for Victoria. Under the management of Wales into Victoria, which will help reduce the SEC it was a lousy investment and under electricity costs in northern Victoria. privatisation it is a marvellous investment. We have a substantial premium over that which would have been earned by the SEC on its cash flow. ELECTRICITY INDUSTRY (LOY Y ANG B) BILL

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To address Mr Power's question, the benefits from The government has addressed a problem that the reduction of the state's debt and the servicing needed to be addressed, and I am confident that it charge flow to all Victorians, because just as it has has saved a great deal of money and encouraged a been argued that all Victorians own the state's much more competitive situation. assets, they also own all the debts. There are a whole range of ways in which these benefits will be spread. Hon. T. C. Theophanous - Are you saying Mission would have entered into this agreement to With respect to the issue of price relativities, we are lose money? in a competitive environment internationally and the most important thing we can do is ensure that Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN - I have no doubt absolute prices and costs apply. Relativity is an that the Labor Party was not worried about losing issue. It has been recognised that there must be some money when it went into this venture. I do not think spread of relativities, and that spread will reflect the Mission did, but the Labor Party was prepared to real costs and will lead to adjustments, if any. lose money in the sense that it had to absorb a premium cost of electricity into its overall billing Mr Theophanous has already talked about some of arrangements so that it could justify the cash the problems of the margins of the various payment it got from Mission Energy. I have no distribution zones affecting investment. At some doubt the Labor Party was prepared to sacrifice the point at the margins of where the lines are drawn - interests of Victorians to overcome its short-term as the distribution area becomes wedge shaped debt problem. Every newspaper article and the where the lines radiate out from Melbourne - comments by Mr Theophanous and David White of distributors on both sides of the line will have to the time show that there was no question about the make a judgment about how badly they want the Labor Party's intentions. business. That is where competition will flow. If a distributor's charges do not diminish, its customers I think the government has a good deal that will will probably move across the boundaries. serve Victoria well. I have been pushing for this action for some time. The sale simplifies the Hon. T. C. Theophanous - You get a administration and management of electricity in disproportionate investment in various areas - Victoria. It will generate a much more competitive nothing in Geelong and a lot in Dandenong. pOSition and it is another string to the government's bow. It will ensure that electricity prices in Victoria Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN - I was sorry to see are competitive with the rest of Australia and will what BHP did today but it was not Geelong that it continue to improve returns to electricity taxpayers singled out. I am not worried about that. in every sense of the word.

Hon. T. C. Theophanous - You wouldn't be Hon. D. A. NARDELLA (Melbourne North)­ worried, you don't live in Geelong. Unfortunately the bill represents the carving up of another piece of our history, of assets that Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN - Actually I do. I generations upon generations have built up -- can take you and show you Corio Bay, although I am not sure I want to be seen with a member of the Hon. W. A. N. Hartigan - It was built only five Socialist Left Byzantine group. The government years ago. recognises that the major thrust facing Victoria is to get the absolute price of electricity down. Victoria Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - Now the government must compete internationally and must address the is selling it off. It is another sad day when the issue that if we are going to have more employment government, which prides itself on being an in this state the government has to get the absolute economic rationalist government, does nothing but cost of utilities down to the lowest level the state can hide every single aspect of its transactions. It hides sustain. from the Victorian public, the opposition and any other interested party the real reason for the Hon. D. A. Nardella - Just revise your figures transactions it enters into and does not allow anyone upwards. any chance to bring to light any flaws that might be involved in those transactions. Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN - You should not get involved in things you do not understand - and The DEPUTY PRESIDENT - Order! The Chair that would keep you quiet for most of the evening. will not put up with debate across the chamber ELECTRICITY INDUSTRY (LOY YANG B) BILL

570 COUNCIL Wednesday, 30 April 1997 between members who do not have the call, which relevant as a house of review and if the government has happened frequently during the past half hour is about openness and accountability it should not since the house resumed sitting after the dinner treat the upper house in this way. The upper house adjournment. If members want to have a debate was not treated in this way when the coalition across the chamber they should use the back door or parties were in opposition. the front door and sort out their differences outside. Mr Nardella has the call and I ask honourable It is critical for the government to treat all members to desist from interjecting and across the members in such a way that they can obtain chamber. information or discuss issues with their constituencies. Proper briefings on bills are Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - The government is necessary. As a shadow minister, I appreciate being hiding its transactions behind clause 13. The clause briefed on bills. It makes the business of Parliament sets a precedent because it has not been used before. flow much quicker. Earlier today I dealt with the The state will rue the day it was used. Hire-Purchase (Amendment) Bill. It was a very small Commercial-in-<:onfidence material or documents bill, but it was dealt with quickly because I knew are exempt from the Freedom of Information Act. I what I was talking about. I was taken through the believe they should be open documents available to bill step by step by an experienced officer and was the Victorian community and to the opposition. therefore able to deal with it effectively and However, that is not the view of this government. efficiently.

When the coalition was in opposition the former This bill is complicated. I have read most of it but I Labor government gave it total access to all the do not understand the provisions regarding documents pertaining to the original bill. superannuation. I hope the minister will detail what Consultants were paid by the former Labor they mean for the workers currently employed at government to assist the coalition in its Loy Yang B. I do not understand some of the other deliberations. However, this government is treating prOvisions dealing with workers transferring from the Victorian community and the opposition in a Loy Yang B to Edison Mission Energy. If there had totally different way. It is wrong for the minister to been some briefings I could have gone through those say it is wonderful that the bill was read a second details and satisfied my concerns. It was not good time yesterday and is being debated today. The enough for the government to say at approximately government is desperate to get the deal through, but 4.00 p.m. that it would adjourn debate on the bill it will not make known the details. The deal is so until 8.00 p.m. rushed the opposition has had difficulty receiving any briefings on it. When the bill was before the The government does not respect this house, which other house it was amended to such a degree that it it should if it wants it to be treated with respect by was totally changed. the community. This house has been the subject of some bad publicity recently and this is another mark The Victorian community will rue the day the against its performance. This is another instance of government was secretive about the deal. It is not this house of review - the other house in a fair to the opposition or the Victorian community bicameral system - being disregarded. Unless a that this truncated process has been put in place. The member is on a government bills committee or Labor Party was not allowed to follow this process involved in discussions within the party room the when it was in government. It is a sad day when the member is not involved in the process. The shadow upper house is treated in such a shoddy and spokesman, the honourable member for Geelong off-hand manner. There is no excuse for it. The North in another place, was given the original bill opposition should be able to discuss these issues before it was changed totally as a result of the with the community. People should know what the amendments moved in the other house. He gave the legislation is about. The government cannot be caucus a brief report outlining what he understood trusted because of its secrecy, and this legislation is about the bill and said he was yet to be briefed on it. part of that process. Members of the opposition knew nothing of what was going on. If the Minister for Finance had been treated this way when he was in opposition I am certain he would Labor Party members were not fully briefed and have blocked the original legislation. Now things are should not be treated in this way. I would object to a different and members of the coalition have no Labor government doing the same thing to an principles. It is shameful. If this house wants to be opposition party. All honourable members should ELECTRICITY INDt:STRY (LOY Y ANG B) BILL

Wednesday, 30 April 1997 COUNCil- 571 have the opportunity of a briefing so they can governments have looked after their mates, who consult with their constituents. That is the least that have exploited every tax minimisation scheme should occur. A full briefing would have resulted in possible. the bill being delayed by a day at the most, but the government's attitude is another example of the Hon. C. A. Furletti - Which union did you work contempt with which it treats the upper house. for?

The government is at fault. All parties interested in Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - I did not work for a the process should understand that contracts and union. If the honourable member cares to look at my arrangements must be based on legislation. The biography he can confirm that. You don't know Parliament should determine its own processes and what you are talking about. Through this legislation should not be steamrolled by the government. There the government is aiding and abetting tax may be a time when the coalition agreement minimisation schemes. That is the only thing I can becomes unworkable. The National Party may surmise. Why else would it not allow the opposition realise that it is not representing its constituents or and the Victorian community access to the the Liberal Party may see that it is losing country documentation? Why would it go through that seats, so it is important that the Parliament follow process if it did not want to keep secret how the the proper processes. I support the reasoned Victorian community and taxpayers will pay for the amendment because it is based on the principle that sell-off of our assets? It is a very serious issue. all members should be briefed so they can properly consider legislation. Arrangements have been in place for repaying state debt. Any excess moneys after the debt is paid can I am concerned about the selling off of Loy Yang B. be used for schools, hospitals, public transport and Labor Party policies are based on developing other necessary services. However, now we have services for the community and building up assets arrangements we will pay for forever. Whatever such as power stations. The selling off of assets saving this government will get from the generally means that workers will lose their jobs and AAA rating it will receive just before the next state the benefits will flow to private companies rather election will pale into insignificance when compared than to the community. to the continuous losses it will suffer when it gives money away to private shareholders in America. The former Labor government made decisions on Through this legislation the government is giving the basis of the best outcome for the community. It away forever the opportunity of money being tried to keep state assets in public hands. The returned to every Victorian taxpayer and family government says it has got rid of the debt, but we from Loy Yang B selling electricity into the grid. still have a debt. The debt has gone from public That is what government members do not sector debt to private sector debt, and the Victorian understand. They do not want to understand community will end up paying for it. Not only has because they are about looking after their mates. the community inherited the existing debt of public That is the sad part about it. utilities, it will now pay for the debt of public companies that are buying the utilities. Worse than During this debate government members have that, Australian taxpayers will pay the debt because consistently referred to the Alcoa deal. When the of shonky tax minimisation schemes entered into previous Labor government came to office in 1982 with Edison Mission Energy. The opposition will not Alcoa, which had based itself at Portland in good know the details of the arrangements entered into faith, was ready to leave Victoria because of the because clause 13 restricts access to the incompetence of the outgoing Liberal government. documentation. The Labor government had to put in place strategies to provide the following benefits to all Victorians: Loy Yang B has been flogged off but neither the firstly, keeping Alcoa in Victoria; secondly, building opposition nor the Victorian community will know a refinery at Portland; thirdly, providing jobs for what debts are incurred and what shonky Victorians at Portland and within that region; arrangements are entered into on behalf of the fourthly, providing export earnings not only for overseas shareholders of Edison Mission Energy. Victoria but also for Australia; and, fifthly, The government is hiding this issue from the providing employment for local people, something Victorian community. It does not want to talk about this government knows nothing about. the sell-off of public assets built up over many generations. Over a long period conservative ELECTRICITY INDUSTRY (LOY Y ANG B) BILL

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As was detailed today, unemployment in Victoria I have expressed a multitude of concerns tonight. I has increased from 8.25 per cent to a disgraceful do not know how the workers at Loy Yang B will be 9 per cent! So much for this government's free treated. I do not know whether their superannuation enterprise; so much for its market forces; so much entitlements will be safeguarded and how they will for the 150000 new jobs it was to provide. This be transferred to the new company. That is an issue government is looking at an increase in that is of absolute importance to members of the unemployment from 8.25 per cent to 9 per cent. opposition. Because of this government, our sons and daughters and grandchildren will find it extremely difficult to Hon. C. A. Furletti interjected. get jobs! Back in 1982 the Alcoa smelter was one of the assets the then Labor government had to put Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - Please explain that, back on stream for the Victorian community. With Mr Furletti, because, as I said, the opposition has not hindsight it should have done better. had a briefing. The opposition rejects this legislation. As a result of this bill I am coming to the conclusion Government members interjecting. that there are some extremely lazy ministers within this government. They are so bad at what they do Hon. D. A. NARDELLA -It could have done that the only way they can survive is to get rid of better with the Alcoa smelter site arrangement, but their responsibilities. Instead of being responsible for the point is that at the time the then government power stations and dealing with issues, either entered into those arrangements the details of the industrially or in terms of providing efficient and proposed legislation were shared with the then cheap services to the Victorian community, the opposition. It knew what was going on - unlike the Minister for Finance is making a clear and lazy situation with this bill, where the arrangements are decision to get rid of the assets the Victorian being hidden from the Labor opposition. community owns. I have come to that conclusion because time and again ministers of this government If the Labor government had not gone through that get rid of their responsibilities to provide services process back in the early 1980s when it first came to and protect the assets of the community they have government the Alcoa development at Portland and been elected to represent. the exports it provides would not exist. That great city would have been a sleepy hollow that relied on It is a bad piece of legislation. It is even worse in that tourism,local industries and local farming to clause 13 denies the right of access under FOI to any survive. Jobs would not have been created in the piece of documentation, even if it is not region. That development was about adding value commercial-in-confidence. The government acts to the bauxite ripped out of the ground and then retrospectively; it does not listen to the opposition exported. This community must add value to its raw and it hides corrupt practices. Clause 13 sets the materials - which was part of that process. It is precedent to hide even more corrupt practices. That important to understand that the Labor government is what the opposition cannot stand. This legislation assisted local communities in regional Victoria at is not worthy to be passed by this house. I support that time. the reasoned amendment.

I want the minister to clarify whether the Hon. R. H. BOWDEN (South Eastern) -It has take-or-pay contract is completely gone. often been my melancholy duty to follow Mr Hartigan does not know; he believes it has gone, Mr Nardella's contribution on a number of bills. I but documentation detailing whether the begin by feeling happy but the longer the take-or-pay contract has gone or has been reduced is honourable member speaks the more unhappy I get. not available. Thankfully I do not get confused. I will make a few comments in response to Mr N ardella after I have I hope the Minister for Health passes on to the discussed the fundamentals of why honourable Minister for Finance the question of whether that members are here, which is to discuss the bill and take-or-pay contract is now gone. The opposition the reasoned amendment. does not know the base price, the other aspect of the take-or-pay arrangement and contract. The I support the bill and oppose the reasoned opposition and the Victorian community need to amendment. For a long time Victoria had the know whether the take-or-pay contract still exists. advantage of efficient, low-cost electrical energy. The availability of that low-cost energy has served this community very well indeed in past decades. One of ELECTRICITY INDUSTRY (LOY YANG B) BILL

Wednesday, 30 April 1997 COUNCIL 573 the most reprehensible acts of the Cain and Kimer in it was sold by the SECV to Mission Energy, which governments was to build up debt and slowly but later became Edison Mission Energy. Besides being a surely destroy the commercial and real advantage of highly respected and credible investor that company this state. Electricity prices went from being the was acknowledged as an experienced and cheapest in the nation to the most expensive. That competent provider of electrical generation services. took only a relatively short number of years. The company is well known, well regarded and extremely competent in a technically difficult I t was typical of the mismanagement of the previous business. Labor government in this state. For instance, when this government assumed office in October 1992 the The 1992 agreement was therefore unprofitable for general return on government investments was Victoria and it really had to be addressed and faced around about 2 per cent or less. That was the up to. Indeed, the general cost profile that was built performance index of the return on investment of up over the 10 years prior to the coalition's government assets in this state as opposed to a assuming office shows that the kilowatt hour cost of typical average return of more than 14 per cent, and electricity was three times what it should have been. in some cases 14.9 per cent. It was a huge One figure that is very illuminating is that the cost of differential. A number of the state's important assets construction under the Labor administration had got were underperforming. One of the most difficult so out of hand that it worked out to about $2500 per things the privatisation of the electricity industry installed kilowatt hour, against a recognised made necessary was the realisation that when the international standard of about $1500 per kilowatt previous Liberal government left office in the early hour. Yet Labor members have the gall to come in 1980s this state was in a good position. For instance, here and lecture us on management and the state debt was only $9 million. Between 1982 and performance. The new agreement that will be put in 1992 the state debt ran up to nearly $32 billion, an place between the SEC and Edison Mission Energy absolute disgrace. Indeed, a substantial portion of it will ensure that the negative losses and the excessive was due the absolute mismanagement of the SEC V drain on funds that were set in concrete by the by the Labor government. discredited previous administration will be reduced.

There is no point in members of the opposition Loy Yang A and Loy Yang B are physically close coming in here and saying,'You are selling the together. The recent sale of Loy Yang A for assets'. They do not talk about the debt. If one $4.76 billion was a remarkable achievement and will undertakes an analysis of the financial performance enhance the electrical industry in Victoria. The of the previous administration and really wants to government has sensibly set out to assist the refer to assets it is necessary to also refer to debt. recovery of an efficient and highly productive One cannot have a discussion about assets without electrical industry by privatising the power discussing liabilities. The previous Labor generation system. The benefits of privatisation administration was an absolute disgrace with regard include the ability to invest the proceeds of the sale, to the liabilities it imposed on Victorian taxpayers. the release of the debt and the capital funding associated with the operation of the generation When the discredited Labor government suddenly plants and the benefits of competition between the ran its numbers it realised there was a big problem significant providers of electrical energy. The sale of with Loy Yang B. It therefore went against its own Loy Yang B will complete the fundamental process ideology and decided it had to sell 40 per cent of that of establishing a competitive environment as it will power station. It entered into what could only be put Loy Yang B on an equal footing with other described as a financially bizarre deal; the Labor power generation operators. government sold 40 per cent of Loy Yang B and lost control of it. It also entered into a 33-year contract of I would like to address the public concerns that have take or pay, which could be described mildly as been conveyed to government members by members irresponsible. of the opposition. There has been a lot of talk about needing to know and needing to see the books and When the coalition was elected in October 1992 it documents. It just so happens that this transaction came to understand that the mismanagement of the contains highly sensitive commercial information. previous government had forced the Loy Yang B That is not unusual. In a large multibillion dollar administration into a hopeless fiscal situation. In industry with free enterprise competitors it is 1992 the percentage of private ownership of the Loy unreasonable to force one of those providers to Yang B project was lifted to 51 per cent. The equity publicly declare commercially sensitive information. ELECTRICITY INDUSTRY (LOY Y ANG B) BILL

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Opposition members have subjected government Mr Strong and Mr Hartigan said, at the time of the members to a great deal of abuse during the debate sale of the 40 per cent shareholding in Loy Yang B, about how important and how wonderfully total responsibility and total management authority interesting the debate is. I would like it recorded in for its operation was transferred to Mission Energy, Hansard that at this very moment only one member so in every respect the state was but a silent of the opposition is in the chamber. That shows how shareholder in the operation. It had a 60 per cent insincere the opposition is. It shows that opposition shareholding but no say at all in the management members cannot make their points and that they are and operation of the power station. Loy Yang B was not genuine. the first of the privatisations of major power generation companies. The Regulator-General will oversee the transaction, and the subsequent commercial operation will be I can recall making comments at the time that the subject to all legislative processes of the federal and sale was very generous, particularly given the state governments. The Auditor-General will be able take-or-pay contract arrangement in the legislation. to make a post-sale analysis of the transaction, as the That take-or-pay contract meant that the state was documentation will be made available to him. All bound to purchase 100 per cent of the electricity federal and state government mechanisms will be in produced by the power company. Mission Energy place to ensure that the sale complies with the law. was able to sell 20 per cent of the electricity The Regulator-General and the Auditor-General will produced on the open market if it chose to do so. If it be able to examine the transaction. So the legislation chose not to do so the state was required to purchase is very much to the credit of the minister. 100 per cent of the electricity produced. The arrangement in that legislation introduced by a The legislation will ensure that the sizeable Labor government was generous. investment in Loy Yang B will enable it to become an efficient producer of electricity. The commercial Mention has been made in debates of the power investment will also ensure that the losses to the supply deals with Alcoa and the price of electricity state government through the SECV on the very supplied to the Point Henry and Portland unwise contracts that were organised and negotiated aluminium smelters. One of the highlights of both by our predecessors will be minimised and that the generous aspects of the previous legislation is being eventual allocation of coal produced by Loy Yang A addressed in this legislation. In response to under the mining arrangements will have a very questions asked by opposition members about the efficient net result. take-or-pay contract arrangements, it is my advice and understanding that any general take-or-pay The bill is very well supported. It is logical, it contract will be completely eliminated through this completes the privatisation of the generation section legislation. Indeed, the only liabilities the state is left of the electricity industry, and it will cut the losses with are arrangements that still exist with the Alcoa that were unwisely entered into by the former Labor company concerning aluminium smelters. Even government. I have a great deal of pleasure in those liabilities have been significantly reduced supporting the bill but I absolutely cannot, will not through a hedging arrangement that was spelt out and do not support the reasoned amendment. by the minister in the second-reading speech. To a large extent the government has addressed both of Hon. P. R. HALL (Gippsland) - Given that those anomalies in the initial legislation and has earlier speakers have already referred to it, I do not gone a long way toward addressing those general intend to go chapter and verse through the history of terms of the original Loy Yang B sale. Loy Yang B. We all know that the Labor government sold 40 per cent of the shareholding of Loy Yang B to I shall pick up some of the comments made by a company then called Mission Energy, now called opposition members and give my views on them. Edison Mission Energy, in 1992. Mr Nardella said he was uncertain about the effect on employees transferred from the public sector to Hon. T. C. Theophanous - Which you voted for, the private sector under the terms of the legislation. MrHall. Firstly, I am not sure whether Mr Nardella was talking about Loy Yang B. All employees currently Hon. P. R. HALL - I agree that the outcome has at Loy Yang B are employees of Edison Mission been very positive, Mr Theophanous. I thought it Energy and no transfer of employment from the was a very generous deal, as I said at the time; and public sector to the private sector is involved. the outcome of the sale has been positive. As ELECTRICITY INDl.:STRY (LOY Y ANG B) BILL

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Mr Nardella talked about the transfer of employees and the Latrobe shire expects to receive rate income who are currently employed at Loy Yang A, which from the power stations this financial year of close to has been bought by Horizon Energy. It is valid for $2.5 million. him to raise that issues under those circumstances. My understanding and advice on those currently To its credit, La Trobe shire has committed the rate employed at Loy Yang A is that they will be revenue from the power stations to economic transferred to Horizon Energy on exactly the same development within the shire, and that has already terms and conditions under which they currently been of assistance in the creation of some industries. work. That has been the case in similar One example is a $60 million National Foods yogurt privatisations, such as Yalloum and Hazelwood. The factory which is currently being constructed employees of those power stations were transferred between Morwell and Traralgon and which will to the new company under the same terms and employ about 120 people. That company has conditions. That issue has never been raised locally received some assistance from the shire to help it with me and I do not expect any such issue to arise. establish itself in that area. The shire was able to offer that assistance because of the additional rate Mr Power raised a valid issue about the need to give revenue it now receives from the two power stations. some consideration to the social impact in the Latrobe Valley area of the downsizing and A number of smaller businesses have been assisted privatisation of the power industry. To his credit, by the shire with the $2.5 million generated from the Mr Power conceded that significant downsizing of rate revenue. Thomas Clark, a wood processor the power industry commenced under the previous located in the old SEC stores building, is an example Labor government. Downsizing has also been of rate money assisting in the establishment of a new followed and pursued under this government, not as business in the Latrobe Valley that has helped to a result of privatisation but as a result of the need for address unemployment. Mr Power is right when he the power industry in Victoria to be competitive says that we need to be constantly vigilant in with the power industries of other states. addressing the social impact of downsizing. Rate revenue is one way of helping to address that impact. There is no argument that downsizing of the SEC started under the Labor government and has My final point concerns workers at private power continued under the present coalition government. stations in the Latrobe Valley. I commented earlier in The need for downsizing was apparent before any response to an interjection by Mr Theophanous that privatisation. Victoria must be price competitive, privatisation has had a positive effect on workers' and has been able to compete with other states. attitudes. I have never met a more satisfied group of Because the advent of a national grid has meant people than the current Loy Yang B power station power is being traded between states there is a need workers. I have known for years and am good to ensure that we retain our competitive power friends with many of the current employees of industry in Victoria. If it were not for downsizing Edison Mission Energy at Loy Yang B. They have power stations such as Hazelwood and Yalloum told me that they have never worked for a better would be almost redundant and in the near future employer. They are now multiskilled. Not only do would not be able to compete viably with power they adjust the screws and do maintenance work, generation companies in other states. they are now computer literate and do computer monitoring work, and as a result their sense of job Downsizing was necessary if Victoria was to retain a satisfaction has been enhanced. strong and viable power industry, and I do not think opposition members would argue about that. I expect that situation would not be dissimilar to However, it resulted in many people in the power what is happening to workers at other power industry in the Latrobe Valley losing employment. stations. Downsizing has meant that workers have As Mr Power rightly pointed out, the government become more multiskilled, accept more must address that issue, and it is doing so. responsibility and have greater job satisfaction as a result. One of the significant ways the coalition government has attempted to address the problem is by making I return to the comments I made in response to an both publicly and privately owned power stations earlier interjection. When it privatised Loy Yang B liable to pay rates, which has applied only for about the Labor Party took a step in the right direction, but two years. The power stations, the land on which I am still not sure whether Victoria got a good deal they sit and the infrastructure have become rateable financially. It probably did not because the sale was ANGLICAN WELFARE AGEl'"CY BILL

576 COUNCIL Wednesday, 30 April 1997 completed on generous terms. However, the Ayes, 30 direction was right and the privatisation of Asher,Ms Furletti, Mr Loy Yang B was right. Ashman, Mr (Teller) Hall,Mr Atkinson, Mr Hartigan, Mr Privatisation of power stations in the Latrobe Valley BIDder, Mr Knowles, Mr is a step in the right direction. It will ensure we will Best, Mr Lueas,Mr have a competitive power generation industry and Birrell, Mr Luekins, Mrs will continue to have jobs in that industry. The step Bishop,Mr Powell, Mrs the government is taking in extending what was Bowden,Mr Ross, Or started by the Labor government is a step in the Brideson, Mr Smith,Mr right direction for the power industry in Victoria. Cover, Mr (Teller) Smith, Ms Craige,Mr Stoney, Mr The bill facilitates the sale of the remainder of Davis, Mr D. MeL Strong,Mr Loy Yang B and also sets the framework for the Davis, Mr P. R. Varty, Mrs privatisation of Loy Yang A. That will be positive for de Fegely, Mr Wells,Dr the people of Victoria generally and the people of Forwood, Mr Wilding,Mrs the Latrobe Valley in particular. I have no hesitation in supporting the bill. Noes, 7 Gould, Miss Power, Mr House divided on omission (members in favour Hogg, Mrs Pullen, Mr (Teller) vote no): MeLean,Mrs Theophanous, Mr Nardella, Mr (Teller) Ayes, 30 Asher, Ms Furletti, Mr Pairs Ashman,Mr Hall,Mr Boardman, Mr Nguyen,Mr Atkinson, Mr Hartigan, Mr Hallam,Mr Eren, Mr Baxter, Mr Knowles,Mr Katsambanis, Mr Walpole,Mr Best, Mr Lueas, Mr Birrell, Mr Luci

Received from Assembly. Noes, 7 Gould,Miss Power,Mr Read first time on motion of Hon. R. I. KNOWLES Hogg,Mrs Pullen, Mr (Teller) (Mm'ister for Health). MeLean,Mrs Theophanous, Mr Nardella, Mr (Teller) STATE TAXATION ACTS (AMENDMENT) BILL Pairs Boardman, Mr Nguyen,Mr Introduction and first reading Hallam,Mr Eren,Mr Katsambanis, Mr Walpole,Mr Received from Assembly.

Read first time for Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Minister ~endmentnegatived. for Finance) on motion of Hon. R. I. Knowles.

House divided on motion: Bl!ILDING (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL

Wednesday, 30 April 1997 COUNCIL 577

BUILDING (FURTHER AMENDMENT) 18th century, it was provided by institutions and BILL societies. In Melbourne, the Melbourne Orphanage and the Melbourne City Mission were established in Introduction and first reading the 1850s with Christian leadership - for example, by Bishop Perry - and with broad community Received from Assembly. support. Denominational agencies emerged later.

Read first time for Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Minister The Anglican interest and efforts resulted in the for Finance) on motion of Hon. R. I. Knowles. formation of three child and family welfare agencies: (a) 1886 - the Mission to the Streets and Lanes of TAXATION ADMINISTRATION BILL Melbourne, headed by Sister Esther and the Community of the Holy Name, worked in the Introduction and first reading north-east quarter of the city; Received from Assembly. (b) 1915 - the Mission of St James and St John, headed by Archdeacon George Lamble, Read first time for Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Minister operated originally in the parishes which for Finance) on motion of Hon. R. I. Knowles covered the western and northern quarters of the city; and MELBOURNE LANDS (YARRA RIVER NORTH BANK) BILL (c) 1921- St John's Homes for Boys and Girls­ originally St Martin's Home for Boys­ headed by the Reverend Eric Thornton and Introduction and first reading operated in the eastern suburbs. Received from Assembly. Originally, each agency served a different locality and was supported by a defined constituency within Read first time on motion of Hon. M. A. BIRRELL the Anglican Church. By 1940 each agency had (Minister for Industry, Science and Technology). developed residential services, originally for boys and girls but later extended to include babies and BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE teenagers. New philosophies of child care increased staff professionalism, and additional government Sessional orders support resulted by the 1960s in the emergence of three multifunctional child and welfare agencies Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Minister for Health) - I under the aegis of the Anglican Church but serving move: those in need regardless of creed.

That so much of the sessional orders be suspended as From the 1960s there were moves for closer would prevent new business being taken after cooperation. In the 1970s there was an agreement 10.00 p.m. during the sitting of the Council this day. not to work in competition in the same region. In the 19805 regular meetings of agency heads and staff Motion agreed to. began. In 1994 a joint working party was appointed by Archbishop Rayner to develop proposals for a ANGLICAN WELFARE AGENCY BILL single agency. In 1995 approval in principle was given by the agency boards and the Synod of the Second reading Diocese of Melbourne to the formation of a new agency, as distinct from a merged agency. In 1996, Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Minister for Health) - I the boards of the agencies and the synod of the move: diocese approved a scheme for a new agency as set out in the report Securing the Future. That this bill be now read a second time. Motive for change Caring for those in need, especially orphans and widows, is a central tenet of the Christian gospel. In The Anglican Church wishes to act more effectively New Testament times this caring was informal and in areas of child and family welfare and to speak individual. In the Middle Ages it was provided by with one voice to government, to its own monasteries and parish guilds. From the membership and to the general community. Among BUILDING (FURTHER AM ENDM ENT) BILL

578 COUNCIL Wednesday, 30 April 1997 anticipated benefits from a new, combined agency, That this bill be now read a second time. are improved service delivery, more adequate planning and research, greater partnership with The Building Act 1993 is a piece of legislation which church and community, more effective service and not only has sectional importance but, through its client advocacy, improved training opportunities impact on the building industry, also has an effect and career paths for staff, improved fundraising on the state's entire economy. The purpose of this capacity and reduced overheads. bill is to introduce a number of amendments to the Building Act, most of which are machinery in The new combined agency is likely to have a client nature. These amendments are intended to confirm base exceeding 9500, a professional and support staff certain matters and to further streamline and of 520, some 1200 volunteers and an expenditure improve the building control system of this state. budget of 516 million. At present, the only country program of the three existing agencies is one in Definition of Building Code of Australia Central Gippsland, but the new agency will be well placed to respond to invitations from country As part of the government's commitment to dioceses to commence new programs. regulatory efficiency the performance-based Building Code of Australia 1996 is proposed to be Incorporation by act of Parliament has been sought adopted in Victoria on 1 July 1997. To enable this to for three main reasons. The first is to simplify the happen a new definition is to be inserted in process of dissolving the existing agencies and section 3(1) of the act and the current definition in creating the new agency. The second is to facilitate part 2 of schedule 1 of the act is to be repealed. the transfer of assets from the existing agencies to the new agency. These assets include a number of Prescribed places of entertainment trusts and bequests dating, in some cases, from the early years of the century. The third is to ensure a The current wording in section 26 refers to the close relationship between the Anglican Church and 'relevant building surveyor'. The use of the word the new agency. 'relevant' means the section is capable of an interpretation that an application for a building The constitution of the new agency has been permit for a place of public entertainment to the approved by the boards of the existing agencies and Building Control Commission must be made the council of the diocese of Melbourne. It is through a municipal or private building surveyor. It appended as a schedule to the bill. Once enacted, is proposed to amend the wording of the prOvision any alterations would be in accordance with the to confirm that such an application is to be made provisions of the constitution and would not require direct to the commission. further parliamentary legislation. Lodgment of documents A chief executive officer has been appointed to commence duties on an interim basis on 16 April The range of documents required to be lodged with 1997. It is hoped that Anglicare Victoria can a local council will be extended to include commence operations on 1 July 1997. information that is obtained after the permit is issued but is still relevant to the permit. Examples of I commend this bill to the house. such documents include details of protection work for adjoining property, !3uilding Appeals Board Debate adjourned on motion of deterrninations or appeal decisions and relevant Hon. M. M. GOULD (Doutta Galla). building surveyors approvals under the performance provisions of the Building Code of Debate adjourned until next day. Australia 1996. The range of documents is to be prescribed in the Building Regulations 1994. BUILDING (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL Temporary occupation of buildings

Second reading If read in isolation the provisions of section 64 of the act could give the incorrect impression that there are For Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Minister for Finance), no penalties for failing to comply with the Hon. R. 1. Knowles (Minister for Health) - I move: conditions on a consent to temporarily occupy a building. B{;ILDING (FURTHER AM ENDM E~T) BILL

Wednesday, 30 April 1997 COUNCIL 579

The provision is to be clarified to confirm that where Inquiry costs a person occupies a building contrary to the conditions specified by the relevant building Section 181 currently provides that if the Building surveyor, the occupation is deemed to be contrary to Practitioners Board makes a finding favourable to a the provisions of division 1, part 5, of the act and the registered building practitioner, it must pay the prescribed penalties under that division apply as for costs of and incidental to the inquiry. This an illegal occupation. amendment will provide the BPB with the discretion to award costs and a decision not to do so will be Expenses of adjoining owner subject to appeal to the Building Appeals Board.

A strict reading of the act does not include the Delegation by the Building Practitioners Board reimbursement of the costs by the adjoining owner in making a preliminary assessment of protection To streamline the operations of the Building works associated with a building project. Only the Practitioners Board, where there has been a failure to supervision of the actual protection work is covered. renew prescribed insurance the amendment The amendment will allow the adjoining owner's provides a power of delegation to the chairperson or reasonable costs and expenses of assessing a member of the BPB under sections 172(3) and (4) to protection works to also be covered, along with the suspend the registration of the relevant building costs associated with supervising the carrying out of practi tioner. protection works. This proposed amendment is in line with a recommendation by the Building Building Practitioners Board Procedure in inquiries Appeals Board. Current quorum requirements for the Building Application for determination in respect of a Practitioners Board have created some difficulties building design due to pressure of work. The BPB has requested that it should be able to conduct an inquiry with a panel The amendment will widen the jurisdiction of the of its members. This amendment will allow the BPB Building Appeals Board to allow it to hear to conduct inquiries using a panel of not fewer than applications which seek the determination of the three members selected by the chairperson. One of BAB about whether a proposed design complies the members of the panel is to be the member with the act, regulations or the proposed representing the category of the practitioner being performance based Building Code of Australia the subject of the inquiry. (BCA 96). This provision will provide improved flexibility in the operation of BCA 96 by providing If a panel of three or more members includes the explicit jurisdiction for the BAB to issue binding chairperson of the BPB, he or she is to be the determinations where clarification of specific chairperson of the panel. technical issues are required. Building permit levy Inquiry into conduct It is proposed to amend section 201(1A) to increase Currently, under section 179(2)(d) the Building the building permit levy threshold of the cost of Practitioners Board may, after an inquiry into the building work at which the building permit levy conduct of a building practitioner, impose a fine of becomes payable from $3000 to $10 000, which will not more than 20 penalty units. In contrast a tribunal apply to all new applications. established by the Architects Registration Board of Victoria (ARBV) to inquire on its behalf into an To assist in the audit process a registered building architect's performance, may make a determination surveyor will be required to lodge a nil return where to impose a penalty not exceeding 50 penalty units. no levy amount was received for the previous month. At present, building surveyors are required The current penalty is not an effective deterrent, only to lodge a building permit levy return if they particularly where the BPB has consolidated a receive an amount in any given month. An number of complaints for the purposes of an application for exemption from the requirement can inquiry, and the amendment will therefore increase be made to the commission where no levy is to be the maximum penalty available to the BPB to collected for an extended period due to illness or 50 penalty units. other reasonable cause. BUILDIJIIG (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL

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Change of name This proposal brings forward the timing for binding the Crown in respect of the building permit system The Building Owners and Managers Association of iTom the year 2000 as proposed in the above Australia Limited Victoria Division has changed its guidelines to a date to be proclaimed in 1997. It name to the Property Council of Australia and provides for competitive neutrality by removing appropriate adjustments have been made to general exemptions for departments, their agencies sections 207(1)(e) and 210(2) of the act. and public authorities including local councils.

Application of act to the Crown and public The departments of Human Services, Education, and authorities Justice have raised the issue of specific exemptions relating to issues of privacy for facilities such as Although departments and public authorities are women's refuges, flexibility of operations in the case not bound by the act, guidelines issued by the of relocatable classrooms and security in the case of Minister for Finance in November 1994 under jails and police stations. Specific exemptions in section 220 of the act currently provide that all relation to these matters will be provided under government departments and public authorities amendments to existing regulations prior to other than councils should obtain a building permit proclamation of this amendment in consultation although the legislation does not require it. Public with relevant departments and agencies. sector bodies are required to report annually to Parliament on progress in implementing the Performance audits guidelines. They have up to this point remained exempt iTom payment of the building permit levy. The Building Act 1993 introduced private sector Local councils have not been required to obtain competition into the building permit system. To building permits. Should they voluntarily do so, maintain a minimum standard of building safety however, they are required to pay the building and an appropriate level of consumer protection it is permi t levy. implicit that the system includes a capacity for the Building Control Commission to conduct Payment of the building permit levy by departments investigations, and random audits of building and public authorities, including councils, will be on practitioners. This need has been accentuated with a project-by-project basis at the time that the the recent inclusion of domestic builders as building building permit application is issued. This is the practitioners under the act. same as for the private sector. Currently, the act contains an express power of entry In total, the additional net revenue to the Building to the premises which are the subject of building Control Commission is estimated to be of the order work. There is no express power of entry to separate of $200000 to $230 000. Given the uncertainty premises at which relevant building documentation regarding the revenue implications of this proposal, may be kept, nor is there express power to conduct the rate of the building levy permit will be reviewed an investigation or conduct a performance audit of after 12 months of its application to Crown and building practitioners. public authority projects to determine if it can be reduced, across the board. Legal advice suggests it would be prudent to clarify such powers in the act. Accordingly, the amendment The additional funding will be used to strengthen includes provisions to enable performance auditors the oversight of building standards and practices by appointed by the Building Control Commission to building practitioners, extend the commission's examine work carried out by registered building support of industry research and development, and practitioners, enter relevant premises, require the complete he implementation of a building production of documents and supply information database - public and private sectors - currently except where such information may incriminate that being developed in conjunction with the Australian person. Bureau of Statistics. For the first time, aggregate public sector building statistics will be available to The audit powers which have been included are departments and agencies for budget planning, similar to the compliance audit provisions in benchmarking and other purposes. The Building sections 221ZZZ to 221ZZZB of the Building Act Control Commission will consult with departments 1993 introduced by the Building (Amendment) Act and agencies on research and development needs for plumbing matters. The entry powers for and results. compliance auditors have been restated in clause 21 TAXA nON ADMIN"ISTRATION BILL

Wednesday, 30 April 1997 COUNCIL 581 to ensure that the current amendment does not affect whether a guarantee or insurance applies to the the status quo in relation to plumbing matters. domestic building work which is the subject of the permit. Authorised persons The government is keen to see that Victoria An authorised person is a person authorised for the maintains its position at the forefront of the reform purposes of enforcement of the act and the process that the Building Act has put into train since regulations in relation to matters not related to the its introduction on 1 July 1994. By continuing to work of a registered building practitioner. An maintain an open agenda and making example of this is illegal building work carried out improvements where a need has been identified I by an owner-builder. The powers of the authorised am confident we can continue to achieve practical person are less extensive than that of a performance reforms that meet the expectations of industry and auditor. The same person can be a performance the community alike. auditor and an authorised person. I commend the bill to the house. Power of entry Debate adjourned on motion of Hon. PAT POWER The power of entry provisions of the act for (Jika Jika). enforcement purposes have been remodelled and the written consent of the occupier to enter the Debate adjourned until next day. premises or the issue of a warrant will be required. Entry provisions for statutory inspection purposes TAXATION ADMINISTRATION BILL are not subject to consent but must be carried out between the hours of 8.00 a.m. and 6.00 p.m. in the Second reading case of a residence and at a reasonable time in the case of any other building or land. Entry onto For Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Minister for Finance), premises will be possible in an emergency without a Hon. R. I. Knowles (Minister for Health) - I move: warrant if the safety of the public or the occupants is at risk or if the premises are the subject of an That this bill be now read a second time. emergency order under part 8 of the act. The new section also makes reference to an emergency In 1994, as part of its commitment to plumbing order under section 221ZZF to provide micro-economic reform, the government gave consistency in the application of the legislation. approval to the Victorian State Revenue Office to Section 228(3) will also be amended to include a participate with the tax offices of New South Wales, photograph of the authorised officer on each identity South Australia, Tasmania and the Australian card. Capital Territory in planning to rewrite the Stamps Act. The stamp duties rewrite project soon Confidentiality provision recognised that the taxation legislation of each of the participating jurisdictions imposed administrative A confidentiality provision is included to ensure that procedures which differed significantly, even among information gathered by an authorised person is the taxing acts within individual jurisdictions. used only for the purposes of enforcement of the act and the regulations made under the act. As many businesses commonly engage in transactions involving a number of jurisdictions, Sale of Land Act 1962 these administrative variations result in additional burdens on businesses through the need to comply To assist prospective purchasers and to improve the with different administrative regimes across flow of information to relevant parties, section 32 of jurisdictions. These differences create uncertainties the Sale of Land Act 1962 requires an amendment to and unnecessary duplication which are wasteful and include a requirement that the vendor of a residence inefficient. The participating jurisdictions therefore (dwelling) provide information on whether he or she began a project to rationalise the administrative has obtained a building permit as an owner-builder procedures currently embodied in five taxing acts in the past seven years if the House Contracts and incorporate them under a single taxation Guarantee Act applies or in the last six years and six administration act. months if section 1378 of the Building Act 1993 applies. The vendor will also be required to state TAXATION ADMINISTRATION BILL

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During the development of this bill, the State which will be common among the jurisdictions. This Revenue Office consulted extensively and publicly bill provides the commissioner with the authority to with key industry groups and professional bodies. make an assessment on such relevant information as The range and detail of the comments on various is available and reforms the manner in which the proposals provided by these groups demonstrate the commissioner may make an assessment. An importance they attach to this as a significant vehicle assessment can now include: for achieving more effective and streamlined taxation administration. In particular, the Taxation an estimated assessment where the Commissioner Institute of Australia played a key role in of State Revenue does not have access to all coordinating comments on the bill. The government relevant information; extends its thanks to those industry groups and professional bodies for their contribution to the a reassessment within three years of the original consultative process. Their comments made valuable assessment, except if there has not been a full and contributions to the quality of the bill. true disclosure of facts, in which case no time limit applies; and This bill is a significant step in the government's program of micro-economic reform of state taxes. By a compromise assessment, by agreement between consolidating the numerous administrative both parties where it is difficult or impractical for provisions in the taxing acts into a simplified and the commissioner to determine a person's exact modernised code which is consistent, wherever liability due to the complexity or uncertainty of possible, with other jurisdictions, compliance costs the facts. for taxpayers will be reduced. This bill is also a step forward in the development of uniform state and These innovations are intended to streamline and territory taxation legislation. A consistent approach simplify existing collection arrangements, to the administration of taxation collection will particularly in relation to complex taxation matters. particularly assist those taxpayers with transactions in more than one jurisdiction. Refunds

New South Wales and South Australia have already In 1993 Victorian refund provisions in all taxing acts enacted their equivalent acts and, as I have said, this were amended after an exhaustive review and have bill is consistent with the legislation already enacted been shown to work effectively. These provisions are in those states. However, the need to reflect specific included in this bill in their current form. Other Victorian policy or structural arrangements has jurisdictions, which had not developed similar resulted in some differences to which I will refer in provisions, have chosen to adopt slightly different considering various aspects of this bill. Specific models. differences of note relate to objections and appeals provisions, where Victoria has access to a less costly The Commissioner of State Revenue must still appeals avenue through the Administrative Appeals refund an overpaid amount, provided the taxpayer Tribunal, and to the refund provisions. lodges a completed refund application within three years of the overpayment being made. The I will now outline the provisions of the bill. The bill commissioner may offset the refundable amount will standardise administrative prOvisions against any other existing tax liability. If a refund applicable to the acts which impose debits tax, under the proviSions has not been made or has been financial institutions duty and payroll tax. In the refused, the taxpayer may, within three months of future these measures will also be extended to cover the end of the period or on refusal, institute recovery stamp duties, when the interjurisdictional stamp proceedings for amounts outstanding. duties rewrite has been completed, and land tax. The bill also includes consequential changes which will The bill also provides that where a tax liability has repeal or amend administrative provisions in other been passed through to another person, a refund can relevant acts, as well as necessary and transitional be withheld until the commissioner is satisfied that provisions. arrangements have been made to pass it back to the correct recipient or recipients to ensure that an Assessments applicant does not make a windfall gain from the refund. The assessment provisions introduce new arrangements in relation to the assessment of tax TAXATION ADMINISTRATION BILL

Wednesday, 30 April 1997 COUNCn. 583

Interest Returns

New provisions apply to interest charged for the late The bill contains returns provisions of a general payment of taxes. These provisions will also be nature only. Specific provisions relating to lodging common among the jurisdictions. In place of the returns, and the information required on returns, existing flat rate, interest will comprise the sum of remain within the specific acts. However, new two components: a market rate and a premium rate. provisions are introduced by the bill to enable the The market rate will be the rate that applies under commissioner to approve special tax return the Commonwealth Income Tax Assessment arrangements. Taxes may be collected by standard Act 1936. The premium rate is set at 8 per cent per returns or other means to be agreed with the annum. This change in approach will ensure that the taxpayer. The purpose of these provisions is to interest payment covers both the financing cost remove the present rigidity concerning payment incurred by the government through the late arrangements in the current acts and allow the payment of revenue as well as a penalty component flexibility to approve new payment arrangements which provides an incentive for timely payment. which take advantage of new technology, or These provisions will standardise the approach otherwise suit the convenience of the State Revenue across the various tax lines and will bring the Office and the taxpayer. imposition of interest for late payment into line with accepted commercial practice. Collection of tax

Interest will be able to be remitted at the discretion The collection provisions encompassed by the bill of the commissioner in appropriate circumstances. maintain existing provisions which enable the The bill also provides for an increase in the commissioner to recover moneys in the courts from minimum interest liability to $20. There is no defaulting taxpayers, and are broadly consistent liability to pay interest if that amount of interest is with the provisions in the other jurisdictions. In less than $20. certain circumstances a third party may have moneys owing to or held on behalf of a taxpayer Penalty tax garnisheed by the commissioner. In genuine cases of hardship, the commissioner will be able to extend Previous penalty powers were based on a fixed the time for payment or enter into an arrangement penalty structure, with the commissioner having with the taxpayer for outstanding liabilities to be discretionary powers to vary the amount of penalty paid by instalments. imposed. The bill introduces new penalty provisions which will be common among the jurisdictions and Record keeping ensure uniformity across tax lines. The new provisions recognise varying degrees and nature of The record-keeping prOvisions contained in the bill culpability and accordingly provide for a variation are intended to clarify the taxpayer's obligation to in penalties, rather than the mandatory imposition ensure the accuracy and accessibility of records. of a flat rate of penalty in the current acts. These prOvisions are also common among the jurisdictions. The bill requires taxpayers to keep The standard penalty rate will be 25 per cent of the records for a minimum of five years to enable the unpaid tax. This may be increased by the commissioner to determine a proper assessment of a commissioner to 75 per cent for intentional disregard tax liability. Records must be accessible and in of the law. However, if the underpayment arises English, or capable of being readily converted or because of circumstances outside the taxpayer's translated into English. control or if the commissioner is satisfied that reasonable care was taken to comply with the Offences taxation law, the commissioner may determine that no penalty is payable. The commissioner also has the A number of general offences are contained in the discretion to remit penalty tax in certain bill that replace similar offences currently specified circumstances. New provisions are also included to in each of the taxation acts. These offences include: encourage compliance. A penalty may be reduced where underpayment is disclosed voluntarily either wilfully destroying records; before or during audit, but similarly may be further increased if there is hindrance or concealment by the knowingly giving false or misleading taxpayer. information; TAXATION ADMINISTRATION BILL

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deliberately omitting information; retained for only a limited period. The commissioner must apply to a magistrate if the period is to be evading or attempting to evade tax, by deliberate extended. There is also provision for an authorised act or omission; officer to obtain a warrant in accordance with the Magistrates Courts Act 1989 to enter and search falsifying or concealing identity; and premises and to seize records, information, equipment or evidence. failing to lodge documents, statements or returns. Secrecy These are modernised provisions which are broadly common to the other jurisdictions. The emphasis of The bill includes secrecy provisions which are the provisions is on requiring a full and true common to the jurisdictions. Any tax officer is disclosure of all facts relevant to tax liability to the prevented from disclosing any information received commissioner. in the administration of the act, save for disclosures to specified parties. The commissioner may disclose Tax officers general information, provided that it would not identify a taxpayer. A new provision affords further The bill provides for the creation of the Office of protection of information by means of secondary Commissioner of State Revenue, who is to have disclosure proviSions. A person who receives administration of all the taxing acts. The information from the commissioner cannot disclose commissioner will hold all functions in relation to that information to any other person unless for the taxation administration. These powers and purposes of enforcement of a law and with the functions - except the power of delegation itself - commissioner's consent. may be delegated to taxation officers appointed by the commissioner. The commissioner is also Objections empowered to engage contractors who may also exercise his functions. The provisions of the bill related to objections broadly reproduce the schemes already existing in Investigations the taxing acts. A taxpayer who is dissatisfied with an assessment or a decision of the commissioner The investigation powers contained in the bill are may lodge an objection in writing within 60 days. consistent with existing Victorian tax statutes and The bill includes two new proviSions which enable are broadly common to the other jurisdictions. The the commissioner to permit an objection to be powers recognise modem practices and include new lodged outside the 6O-day limit and allow a taxpayer safeguards for taxpayers against the exercise of to proceed directly with an appeal to the Supreme coercive powers by the commissioner or officers. Court where the commissioner has not issued a notice of decision within 90 days. The 90-day limit is The bill includes requirements for persons to a new concept placing a stricter requirement on the provide information, either orally or in writing, or to commissioner to deal with objections expeditiously. attend before the commissioner and give evidence, However, the time limit can be suspended if the or produce a document or thing as required in the commissioner notifies the taxpayer that further notice. These replicate existing requirements under information is required to determine the objection each of the taxing acts. and that information is not provided.

Authorised officers of the commissioner will In line with current provisions, where a taxpayer's continue to have the power to enter and remain on objection results in a refund interest will be paid to premises and inspect, copy or seize records without the taxpayer from the date tax was paid. warrant. These powers will now be subject to the qualification that officers may not enter residential Appeals premises without the consent of the occupier. The powers of the commissioner in relation to entry now The appeals provisions in the bill also broadly provide for access to computer stored information replicate the existing provisions in the taxing acts. A and the use of qualified assistants to assist in the taxpayer dissatisfied with a decision on an objection, retrieval of that information where necessary. A new may refer the matter to the Administrative Appeals provision protecting taxpayers requires that material Tribunal or the Supreme Court. The existing produced to or seized by the commissioner can be requirements as to onus of proof and the appeal TAXATIOl\\ ADMINISTRATION BILL

Wednesday, 30 April 1997 COUNCIL 585 being limited to the grounds of the objection or the commissioner's consideration of an objection disallowance are maintained. A new provision were subject to judicial review. requires that the tax be paid before an appeal may be brought to prevent the process being used to avoid a A new power is provided to the commissioner legitimate tax liability. However, the commissioner under section 100 which provides the commissioner may waive this requirement and the bill does not with discretion to allow an objection to be lodged preclude any judicial review of his exercise of even though out of time. This decision is discretion. non-reviewable to ensure the efficient administration of the act and to enable outstanding As in the case of objections, the bill provides that issues relating to assessments to be concluded amounts refunded as a result of a successful appeal expeditiously. will include interest to be paid to the taxpayer from the date the tax was paid. Section 108(1) of the bill prevents a taxpayer from lodging an appeal unless the tax owing has been Section 85 statement paid. The jurisdiction of any court to hear the appeal is ousted unless the tax is paid or the commissioner I wish to make a statement under section 85(5) of the agrees that the appeal may proceed. The pwpose of Constitution Act 1975 of the reasons for altering or this provision would not be achieved if taxpayers varying that section by this bill. Sections 5, 12(4), were able to use the appeal provisions as a means of 18(1),96(2), 100(4) and 108(1) provide that it is the unduly delaying payment of tax. intention of those sections to alter or vary section 85 of the Constitution Act 1975. These provisions Service of documents preclude the Supreme Court and the Administrative Appeals Tribunal from entertaining proceedings of a The bill updates the means by which documents kind to which these sections apply, except as may be served, including by facsimile or, where provided by those sections. Section 5 defines the appropriate, other electronic means. The meaning of non-reviewable in relation to this act. requirements on the commissioner with regard to the service of documents will be consistent with the The reasons for limiting the jurisdiction in relation to service options available to taxpayers. These a compromise assessment under section 12 are that provisions are also common among the jurisdictions. agreement has been reached between the commissioner and the taxpayer on the taxpayer's Evidence liability, and the pwpose of the section would not be achieved if the decision was reviewable. The bill provides that a notice of assessment, or a copy signed by the commissioner, is conclusive Section 18 of the legislation establishes a procedure. evidence of the making of the assessment and that the adherence to which is a condition precedent to the amount and all particulars of the assessment are taking any further action for recovering refunds. The correct, except in objection, review or appeal refund provisions replicate those existing in the proceedings where it will be prima facie evidence current taxation acts. The purpose of the provisions only. is to give the commissioner the opportunity to consider a refund application before any collateral The bill before the house introduces the most legal action can be taken. The purpose of these modem concepts of taxation administration. The bill provisions would not be achieved if the simplifies and ensures consistency across tax lines commissioner's actions were subject to judicial and a majority of jurisdictions, with important review. benefits and cost savings to taxpayers and the community. The bill is an important step for the Section 96 of the legislation establishes an exclusive government in reforming its state taxes. The code for dealing with objections and appeals. This interjurisdictional rewrite of stamp duties code establishes the rights of objectors in a statutory legislation, one of the more complex of state taxes, is framework and preclude any collateral actions for nearing completion and new legislation is expected judicial review. The objections and appeals this year. Further, all states except Queensland have provisions establish that review of assessments is recently announced their desire to implement major only to be undertaken in accordance with an reforms of financial transaction taxes. These reforms exclusive code identified in that division. The all provide evidence of the government's strong pwpose of these provisions would not be achieved if commitment to state taxation reform. ROAD SAFETY (DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION) BILL

586 COUNCn.. Wednesday, 30 April 1997

I commend the bill to the house. recreational opportunities in the community. It is essential that community life is not diminished by Debate adjourned for Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS the closures. I ask the minister to ensure that the (Jika Jika) on motion of Hon. M. M. Gould. City of Moreland does not have reduced infrastructure because of the government's Debate adjourned until next day. rationalisation of schools. ROAD SAFETY (DISCLOSURE OF Health: immunisation INFORMATION) BILL Hon. N. B. LUCAS (Eumemmerring) - Will the Introduction and first reading Minister for Health advise the house what the government is doing to create a widespread Received from Assembly. awareness of the need for immunisation against preventable diseases to prevent a situation where Read first time for Hon. G. R. CRAIGE (Minister children and adults die needlessly from utterly for Roads and Ports) on motion of preventable diseases? Hon. R. I. Knowles. In Australia last year there were 4000 cases of ADJOURNMENT whooping cough and unfortunately four children died as a result of contracting the disease. I Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Minister for Health) - I understand that although 85 per cent of children in move: Victoria receive the first three doses of triple antigen, only 70 per cent have the booster dose 18 months That the house do now adjourn. later. Complications that can be prevented occur with this whooping cough, as they do with measles Box Forest Secondary College and other diseases.

Hon. C. J. HOGG (Melbourne North) - I ask the One in 25 of the children who contract measles will Minister for Health to refer the Minister for also develop pneumonia, one in 2000 will have Education to the loss of community infrastructure inflammation of the brain, one in 2500 will have that is occurring because of the closure and sale of permanent brain damage and one in 20 000 will die, school sites. I have explained the situation to the yet measles is preventable. Rubella, or German minister previously. The Broadmeadows council and measles, is thought by many to be a trivial illness, a community cooperative paid for the basketball but if a woman is infected with rubella in the first gymnasium at the Oak Park campus of the Box 20 weeks of a pregnancy the consequences for the Forest Secondary College in the City of Moreland. child are dire and include the chance of deafness, The community, not state taxpayers in general, paid blindness and mental retardation. Nearly a quarter for the facility. The car park was constructed by the of women of child-bearing age have no immunity council and the tennis court was built with a council against rubella. Although prior to 1969 there was no grant. vaccination for rubella, since then vaccination has become simple and effective and has no side effects. At the Hadfield campus of the Box Forest Secondary College the community contributed 50 per cent of I also direct to the attention of the minister an ABS the cost of the gymnasium and $5000 for the tennis report of 1995 which indicates that only about half of court. From 1983 to 1994 the community raised a the children in Australia are fully immunised further $200 000. In the light of the government's against measles, mumps, polio, whooping cough, liquidation of these school assets, I ask the minister diphtheria, tetanus and rubella. Finally, I direct the to find a way in which the non-state government attention of the minister to a letter published in the equity is returned to the local community, either Age, in which a lady states: through handing over the assets to the council without charge or by building replacement facilities, But 4 days of mild discomfort spread over 18 months is if the council on behalf of the community deems that a pretty small sacrifice compared with what my mother to be a better course of action. suffered during her early childhood. Racked by diphtheria and whooping cough, in addition to the The facilities in government schools in the City of routine mumps and measles, while watching her own Moreland have always offered social and ADJOURNMENT

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mother slowly dying of tuberculosis, my mum's if the library could call him in regard to the requests childhood had little room for magic. he can provide the information. Will the Minister for Health ask the Minister responsible for Workcover We do not want to return to those days. I ask the whether this shredding has occurred? minister for his advice. The PRESIDENT - Order! Up to that last point, Workcover Update the Leader of the Opposition's question was in order. The last part was a repeat of what we heard Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS (Jika Jika) - I have earlier in the day, and the Leader of the Opposition a matter to raise with the Minister responsible for cannot ask that now. Workcover. I know the minister is ill, and I have spoken to the Minister for Health, who will take up Black Rock sewage treatment plant the matter on the minister's behalf. During question time today I asked a question concerning Workcover Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN (Geelong) - I direct Update and the issue of 200 000 copies of the a matter to the attention of the Minister for Roads six-monthly newsletter to employers around the and Ports as representative in this place of the state. The Minister for Small Business would know Minister for Agriculture and Resources. About a that there are about 200 000 employers in the state, fortnight ago all honourable members were grateful so the figures correspond. to be informed that the Deputy Premier opened the new Black Rock sewage treatment plant. Reference is made in the publication to incident notification regulations. It states that the new This will be a matter of some enthusiasm, concern notification regulations require that if there is an and interest. One of the consequences of a incident which results in death or serious injury the substantial investment of some $50 000 over the past Victorian Workcover Authority must be notified. four or five years in this project has been the More importantly, it states that notification must provision of tertiary treatment of sewage. Water that occur if: flows through the treatment plant and the outfall to the sea is of a high quality and is capable of being ... there is a dangerous occurrence of 'near miss' where used for agricultural and rural purposes. Given that persons are exposed to immediate risk to their health we are going through one of the driest periods and safety. experienced in Victoria for many years, our attention is drawn to the fact that Australia is an extremely That is part of the new regulations and I would have dry continent and that for a variety of reasons­ thought it was important for employers to know environmental, water usage and so on - we should about them. Fines of $40 000 and $10 000 be seriously considering how we can conserve such respectively may be imposed on companies and a valuable resource, especially water that is treated individuals who fail to notify Workcover of such an to this level. incident or near miss. I would be most grateful if the minister would ask Apparently these 200 000 copies of Workcover Update the Minister for Agriculture and Resources in were shredded, but not every copy, because I have another place to let me know what action is under an original. I understand the reason for their being consideration by him and his department to assist in shredded was that concern was expressed by the achieving a better utilisation of the resource and at chief executive officer about how employers would the same time starting to address the issue of react to the new regulations. He did not want to elimination of sewage outfall on our coasts. upset employers unnecessarily by having the publication sent to them. I wish to establish whether Apprentices: workplace abuse that has occurred. One can never be certain about these things. Hon. S. M. NGUYEN (Melbourne West) - My question is directed to the Minister for Health, who I had the parliamentary library ask the Workcover represents the Minister for Tertiary Education and AuthOrity for a copy of the publication. The library Training in another place. Last year the issue of received a faxed response which states that the workplace abuse of apprentices was raised. In officer involved is sorry for the delay - I will not particular the case of a Mr David McHugh was mention his name - but he has been informed that brought to the minister's attention. As a result, the there has not been an update since August 1996 and ADJOURNMENT

588 COUNCIL Wednesday, 30 April 1997 minister sounded a warning to all employers about I am aware that there was not even a branch meeting their responsibilities in relation to apprentices. on Monday night. Even if the minister had not been able to watch the Monday night Four Corners Recently a 16-year-old teenager working at a program, it was rebroadcast yesterday, beginning at Sunshine panel beater's shop was allegedly set 1.00 p.m., during the lunch break. The minister's alight by his fellow workers and suffered burns and excuses for not having viewed that important shock. I ask the minister to ask the Minister for program do not stand up. Will the minister now Tertiary Education and Training to investigate the view the Four Corners program and deal with serious case and make it clear to employers that any abuse allegations, specifically that the software is faulty, of teenage employees in the workplace will not be and report back to the house on what action he will tolerated. take? Glen Eira: mayoral allowance Snow peas: export

Hon. M. T. LUCKINS (Waverley) - I ask the Hon. I. J. COVER (Geelong) - I raise my Minister for Health to refer a matter to the Minister inaugural matter on the adjournment debate with for Planning and Local Government in another the Minister for Industry, Science and Technology. place. My electorate office is located in In doing so, I thank him for the briefing he gave to Murrumbeena, which is in the City of Glen Eira. some honourable members yesterday, in which he There appears to be a degree of community concern outlined the excellent initiatives being undertaken about the allowance the council has voted to pay the by his department. mayor of Glen Eira and his outside interests. I ask the minister to investigate the concerns on behalf of Hot on the heels of that briefing yesterday, I raise the ratepayers of Glen Eira and my constituents. this issue to find out whether the minister is aware of the development of a lucrative international Intergraph: performance market for a South Gippsland snow pea cooperative and the assistance given to the cooperative by a local Hon. D. A. NARDELLA (Melbourne North) - I member of Parliament. I understand the operation address an issue to the Minister for Health. In reply has been described as unique in Victoria. The to a question without notice by me today the minister may even be able to enlighten us as to minister stated that he had not seen the Four Corners whether it is the biggest operation of its type in program on Intergraph and in reply to an Australia. interjection by Mr Theophanous said he could not have seen it because he was busy at a meeting on Given that the Geelong region provides marvellous Monday night. expanses of agricultural land, and the fact that people in the area are constantly on the lookout for The issue raised by Four Corners was whether the ways to stimulate employment and investment, I ask service provided by Intergraph was effective and whether there are opportunities for me and my efficient and what were the contractual colleague Mr Hartigan to emulate the aforesaid arrangements. The minister is responsible for those member. Finally, will the minister advise the house contractual arrangements, which are of paramount whether snow peas will become more significant importance to the Victorian community. than genetically engineered soya beans?

I am sure the minister would have been made aware Eastern Freeway: extension of details of the program and some of the claims arising from it, which were the subject of reports in Hon. PAT POWER (Jika Jika) - Unfortunately newspapers and on news services on Tuesday and the issue I raise is serious. I seek the assistance of the which were mentioned in question time yesterday Minister for Roads and Ports on an issue concerning and today. I am sure the government would have the Eastern Freeway extension. I have no doubt the appreciated the need for the issues raised in the minister is fully aware of the progress of the work program to be dealt with by the minister and the on that extension. I visited that freeway extension in government. The minister would also know that the the North Box Hill and North Balwyn areas and library could quickly provide a copy of the audio walked over a great deal of construction work. I was tape for him. struck by the advanced technology being used in some of the noise abatement management programs. ADJOURNMENT

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I ask the minister to report on the perspex walls that Mr Lucas raised his concern about the relatively low are to be utilised in the North Balwyn and rates of immunisation among Victorian children. North Box Hill areas for noise abatement. I This is a matter of concern to the state and understand the transparent walls will sit on a commonwealth governments. The commonwealth concrete base of some 1.5 metres and will be about government recently released a seven-point plan to 7 metres high. The people whose properties back on try to increase immunisation rates. The Victorian to the freeway at that point are concerned about the government has been active in taking a number of loss of amenity that these transparent noise steps to improve the situation. abatement walls will provide. I should like to know whether it is possible for there to be reconsideration An overwhelming majority of parents are not of the use of that material. Further, will the minister opposed to immunisation, but there is some indicate the target date for the completion of the indication that either through a lack of opportunity Eastern Freeway? or forgetfulness they do not maintain the immunisation of their children at the level of the Responses past. The issue is being tackled from a number of perspectives, the first being to encourage Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (Minister for Industry, opportunistic immunisation when parents take their Science and Technology) - Mr Cover raised a very children to general practitioners. As a generalisation, important matter about the development of a children visit general practitioners on a number of lucrative new international market for snow peas. occasions for different reasons and that would The breakthrough has been drawn to my attention provide an opportunity for the GP to check with the by Mr Cover. Fortunately, I also have on hand the parents about the child's immunisation. South Gippsland Sentinel Times. Honourable members may not be aware that Mr Smith has been Secondly, a few years ago the government responsible for this market breakthrough. Indeed, as introduced an initiative requiring students the article makes clear: commencing primary school to lodge certificates of their current immunisation status. Last year A South Gippsland snow pea cooperative is enjoying approximately 13 per cent of schools did not follow lucrative international markets, with the help of a local up if parents did not lodge the certificates. As a politician. result of discussions with my colleague the Minister for Education there is now an agreement that when a This is the advice Mr Cover needs. The article certificate is not lodged it will be followed up to continues: establish whether the parent is a conscientious objector or whether it is simply a matter of the Mr Smith is drawing on valuable contacts gained from parent having forgotten to maintain the extensive travel, to set up new markets. immunisation. I expect that to have made an impact.

We need this type of outreach. I encourage other Last year the government funded a mobile members to become personally involved in getting immunisation van in the western suburbs and it will local businesses up and running. The article also be funding three more vans in this year's budget: indicates: one in the western suburbs, one in the Grampians region; and one in the Hume region. They will work Mr Smith will also help in the move's financial aspects. with local government and move around the region to try to pick up those children whose parents are It is an important marketplace. I am not sure happy for them to have vaccinations but who have whether this will compete with Mrs McLean's not got around to it. genetically engineered soya beans in terms of growth. I thank Mr Smith for his initiative. He is There is no doubt that if the level of immunisations actively involved in his area. is increased epidemics of a number of diseases that previously plagued our community but which are Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Minister for Health)­ now controllable will be prevented. I am confident Mrs Hogg raised for the attention of the Minister for the initiatives taken by both the state and Education the concern of the City of Moreland that commonwealth governments will lift the coverage the sale of school sites would reduce the overall significantly above the current level. social infrastructure within that city. I shall refer that matter to the minister. ADJOURNMENT

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The one reservation I have is that we should not rely much local support because he attracted only 8 per on the Australian Bureau of Statistics figures, which cent of the vote, but he did not take the trouble of show that approximately 50 per cent of children are contacting Cr AIan Grossbard for the information. It immunised, because the methodology it uses was is disappointing that his claims were repeated in this rejected by the Americans a number of years ago. house by Mr Power without checking the facts. Our work has shown that something like 85 per cent of children who commence primary school have I will refer the matter to the Minister for Planning been immunised. That figure needs to be increased and Local Government who, no doubt, will seek the but it is not quite as grim as the ABS evidence opportunity of correcting the record in fairness to suggests. both the ratepayers of Glen Eira and Cr Grossbard.

Mr Theophanous raised a matter for the Minister for As best I can understand Mr Nardella seeks a Finance seeking an update on the reported editions commitment from me that I will watch Four Corners of the April Workcover Update that have been in the future. I have no intention of doing that. The destroyed. It was clear during question time that the indications I gave the house earlier today were Minister for Finance had no knowledge of the issue. accurate. The advice, not only from the Metropolitan I will certainly refer it to him to determine whether Ambulance Service but from all the emergency he has been able to obtain information subsequently. services, is that the computer dispatch system is operating very effectively. Victorians can have great Mr Nguyen raised with me an important matter for confidence that their emergency services are the Minister for Tertiary Education and Training. I operating effectively. There is no requirement for me believe all honourable members would be concerned to take further action on the issue at this time. about media reports of victimisation of young apprentices in the work place. There have been some Hon. G. R. CRAIGE (Minister for Roads and horrific experiences. The government has expressed Ports) - Mr Hartigan raised for the attention of the great concern about that and specifically the recent Minister for Agriculture and Resources water report of the mock hanging of a IS-year-old flowing from a treated sewage plant outflow which apprentice. This matter is not easily tackled because could be used for agricultural purposes because of it is about human behaviour and people not its high quality. He asked the minister to consider understanding what most of us see as basic decent the better utilisation of that resource. I shall pass on human behaviour. I will refer both his concern and his inquiry to the minister. his request to my colleague for action. Mr Power continues to show an interest in the Mrs Luckins raised her concern about a suggested Eastern Freeway extension by raising the issue of victimisation of the Mayor of the City of Glen Eira, noise attenuation and the problem with houses Cr AIan Grossbard. I will refer the matter to the backing onto the freeway. He asked that I further Minister for Planning and Local Government. My consider changing the structure of the perspex understanding is that contrary to the accusation that barriers to concrete barriers. I will not do that. he is only a part-time mayor, Cr Grossbard has actually taken leave and will be a full-time mayor. Motion agreed to. That information would have been readily available if he had been contacted. House adjourned 11.03 p.m.

This occurred because of a claim by Mr Ari Suss, a candidate in the recent election. He did not receive P ARLIAM ENT HOUSE COMPLETION AUTHORITY

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Thursday, 1 May 1997 be available immediately. I ask honourable members to be patient until the printed copies are available in a few days.

As well as the report, the nine appendices will be The PRESIDENT (Hon. B. A. Chamberlain) took lodged with the library, the House Committee, the the chair at 10.02 a.m. and read the prayer. Building Services Agency, the Premier and the Public Records Office, so a record will be available to PARLIAMENT HOUSE COMPLETION the public on an ongoing basis for research in the AUTHORITY future.

Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern) - By A number of useful pieces of work were done in any leave, I move: event. Firstly, the exterior stonework of the building was cleaned, which the authority assumed the That there be laid before this house a copy of the report contracts for from the House Committee. Now that it from the Parliament House Completion Authority, is complete all honourable members would together with appendices, following the winding up of acknowledge that it is a magnificent job and that the authority. Parliament House is a much improved building from a visual point of view for anyone coming up As honourable members will be aware from papers Bourke Street, especially at night. It is a magnificent tabled earlier this week advising of proclamations of vista. certain acts, the Parliament House Repeal Act came into operation on 22 April. It seemed to members of Secondly, as a result of the building condition the Parliament House Completion Authority, which investigations some asbestos was found in the has just gone out of existence, that the immense building. That was removed at a cost of some amount of work done by the authority in its $66000. Obviously the work that was executed was relatively short lifetime and the valuable material it very useful. assembled, all of which I trust and hope will have a future use, should be officially recorded in the Thirdly, an investigation of the stonework was records and papers of Parliament. Therefore, I am under way at the time the decision was taken not to tabling a report which sets out the authority's proceed with the project. Members of the authority activities from its constitution in the middle of 1996 believe it would be extremely useful if that until its demise last week. Attached to that report investigation were completed so the House are nine appendices recording the work of the Committee and succeeding generations of authority which will remain on the record for the parliamentarians might at least know the future. Those appendices are: alternatives if either completion or maintenance of 1. Project Brief: Project and Functional Brief; the stonework needs to be done in the future. Honourable members will note that the final 2. Project Brief: Space Data and Layout Sheets; paragraph of the authority's report recommends 3. Project Brief: Existing Condition Reports; accordingly and that the stonework investigation be completed by the Department of Natural Resources 4. Architect's Report (Robert Peck von Hartel and Environment, or whatever is deemed the Trethowan); suitable authority to do so. 5. Structural Engineer's Report (Ove Arup); I take this opportunity to thank a number of people, 6. Services Engineer's Report (Connell Wagner); particularly the staff of the authority and especially 7. Quantity Surveyor's Report - Preliminary its chief executive officer, Mr Barry Nicholls. A vast Estimate No. 1 (Rider Hunt Melbourne); array of consultants were engaged, all of whom accepted their charter with gusto and contributed 8. Project Manager's Report (Building Services very well. I thank the architects, Robert Peck Agency); and von Hartel Trethowan, including Yvonne 9. Catering Consultant's Report (Food service von Hartel, Bruce Trethowan and their team of Consultants) . young and enthusiastic architects. I place on record the authority's appreciation of the work of Mr Jim Copies of the report will be made available in the Kennedy of the Building Services Agency, who papers office in due course - if the house carries the devoted a great deal of his time and skills to the motion I propose to move - but limited copies will PAPERS

592 COUNCIL Thursday, 1 May 1997 project. I also thank my fellow authority members­ working with the chairman, Mr Baxter to achieve a Mr Speaker and the honourable members for good outcome. Unlike previous work which has Shepparton, BeIUlettswood and Werribee, edged towards the completion of Parliament House, Mr Kilgour, Mr Coleman and Ms Gillett respectively the work done this time is more likely to bear fruit in from another place, and, from this chamber, the sense of the preparatory work that has been Mrs Hogg and Mr President - for the way they done. For instance, one of the documents that has took up their positions on the authority. I believe the been prepared is a condition report of the existing authority was a good team which worked by building. That will be a great guide to the House consensus. There are none more sorry than the Committee, which has the responsibility for the members of the authority that, yet again, there was a building. This year's budget includes f..mding for the false start in the completion of this magnificent reroofing of Queen's Hall. It is to be hoped that building. everything that is done in the future will be consistent with preparatory work of the completion Whenever I approach the building now, especially authority. when I come from the south, I see an incomplete building. That is really disappointing. I am sure all The design principles which were almost adopted by honourable members look forward to 1999 and hope the authority will be adhered to by those the project can get under way again. I can say undertaking certain work in the meantime. For without being too immodest that the authority has example, money was to have been spent on the lift laid a very good foundation for the building to be on the Legislative Council side of the building. That completed sometime in the future. I certainly hope it will not happen now because under the design can be. which was developed that lift was redundant because there were to be other lifts in another place. Hon. C. J. HOGG (Melbourne North) - I It makes sense to bear in mind the design principles commend the remarks made by Mr Baxter. I have that have been developed. A very useful set of already had a good deal to say about the winding up documents has been developed. of the Parliament House Completion Authority but I wish to say what a sad occasion it has been. I do not I wholeheartedly support the recommendation of want this opportunity to go by without commending the authority that the issue of the stone for the the final report of the authority to honourable cladding of the building be resolved because that members. On behalf of all members in this house will be a fairly lengthy process. Time is now and probably everyone who works in the building I available to work through that issue. It will require thank yet again Mr Baxter for the enterprise, energy some funds from the Treasury to enable such an and sheer hard work and vision he showed right investigation to proceed but it will be money well throughout the project. spent. That will literally take months off the completion time when the rocket goes up to start Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (Minister for Industry, again, perhaps in mid-1999. On behalf of all Science and Technology) - I look forward to members I thank Mr Baxter for his leadership of the reading the report and appendices tabled by completion authority. Mr Baxter. I am sure all honourable members join with Mrs Hogg in thanking Mr Baxter for his Motion agreed to. outstanding work and the dignity he has brought to the last few months, which have been quite difficult Laid on table. for the authority and, I dare say, for him. He has done a job that is a credit to this house and to Ordered that report be printed. Parliament. It does not surprise those of us who know of his professional skills but I hope the PAPERS investment that he personally put in, along with the other members of the authority, will bear fruit in a Laid on table by Clerk: few years to come. Ballarat University - Report for the year 1996 The PRESIDENT - Order! Obviously I endorse the remarks made by Mrs Hogg and the Minister for Deakin University - Report for the year 1996 Industry, Science and Technology. The authority worked as a unit during the course of its operation. Monash University - Report for the year 1996 The three parties were as one with the objective of MELBOURNE LANDS (YARRA RIVER NORTH BANK) BILL

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Swinbume University of Technology - Report for the found by the council to offer the best overall year 1996 opportunity.

Victoria University of Technology - Report for the The purpose of the legislation is to facilitate the year 1996 development agreed between Melbourne City Council and the preferred developer. The council Victorian College of Agriculture and Horticulture struck a development agreement with the preferred Ltd - Report for the year 1996 (two papers). developer in December 1996, subject to the government agreeing to the terms and conditions of MELBOURNE LANDS (YARRA RIVER a lease. The government understands that the NORTH BANK) BILL developer will make a significant up-front cash contribution and the council will use the Second reading contribution to further enhance the public amenity of the turning basin precinct. Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (Minister for Industry, Science and Technology) - I move: The recent planning scheme amendment requires the developer to provide a minimum setback of five That this bill now be read a second time. metres to enable continuation of the new turning basin promenade. The right-of-passage provisions in The bill provides for Melbourne City Council as the bill grant the aquarium operator and visitors committee of management to issue long-term leases access to the premises but the council will be able to for the purpose of constructing and operating an ensure 24-hour public access to and use of the aquarium. The bill will thereby assist the City of promenade. Melbourne in its plans to enhance the land between Queensbridge, Flinders Street, King Street and the I turn now to the particulars of the bill. Clauses 1,2 North Bank of the Yarra River. and 3 relate to the purposes of the bill, its commencement and relevant definitions. Clause 4 The City of Melbourne is seeking to transform what provides for the granting of long-term leases by the has been a neglected and unattractive environment City of Melbourne as committee of management for dominated by roads, car parks and railway viaducts an aquarium and associated retail, tourism and into one of the most dramatic public spaces in commercial purposes on the north bank of the Yarra Australia. The Lord Mayor of Melbourne recently River, subject to ministerial approval. celebrated the Yarra Bank turning basin improvements as another significant step in the Clause 5 of the bill provides a right of passage to the process of transforming the Yarra into a popular leaseholder, subject to relevant conditions to be icon. determined by the council. Clause 6 provides for a small portion of an adjacent municipal reserve to be The council saw the area as a major impediment to excised and rereserved as part of the area to which linking the city to the river on its northern banks. the leasing provisions apply. Clause 7 protects rights The government clearly signalled its support for under the Transport Act in relation to the Flinders improvement of the north bank of the Yarra River in Street railway viaduct. the capital city policy and sees the council's initiatives as complementing Agenda 21 projects I commend the bill to the house. such as the restoration of Old Customs House and the construction of Federation Square. Debate adjourned on motion of Hon. PAT POWER (Jika Jika). Experience with Batman Park has taught the council that the creation of open space alone is not sufficient Debate adjourned until next day. to generate activity and public interest. The council has been working to attract a commercial ROAD SAFETY (DISCLOSURE OF development to the western end of the turning basin INFORMATION) BILL precinct which would complement the turning basin and the river, and be an important tourist attraction Second reading for all Victorians and our visitors. The aquarium proposal by Melbourne Underwater World was Hon. G. R. CRAIGE (Minister for Roads and Ports) - I move: ROAD SAFETY (DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATIOI\) BILL

594 COUNCIL Thursday, 1 May 1997

That this bill be now read a second time That is more in keeping with the laws in force in other states and territories. It also accords with The main purpose of this bill is to amend the principles adopted by the commonwealth in its provisions of the Road Safety Act which deal with Privacy Act 1988 which are being proposed as the the disclosure of information from the records of basis for disclosure under national uniformity Vicroads kept under that act. The records in legislation such as the Road Transport Reform question relate mainly to registered motor vehicles (Heavy Vehicles Registration) Act 1997 of the and their owners and to licensed drivers. The commonwealth. present provisions are in need of amendment as a result of a number of developments. These include The second main problem with the present the moves toward national uniformity in road provisions is the lack of any control over the use to transport matters, the increasing need to safeguard which information is put once it has left Vicroads. In the privacy of the individual in the electronic age the parking example referred to, once the municipal and the operational needs of agencies engaged in council has received the information from Vicroads combating crime and law enforcement generally. there is no proviSion in the Road Safety Act to ensure that it is used only for the purpose for which There are two main problems with the present it was received. The bill overcomes this by providing provisions contained in section 92 of the Road Safety that Vicroads must have in place a confidentiality Act 1986 and in related provisions of the Crimes agreement before it discloses the information. In Act 1958. These provisions are seen as too restrictive some cases the agreement will be a continuing when information is required for law enforcement agreement, for example where there is an ongoing purposes and not restrictive enough when requirement for information, as in the case of the information is passed on for legitimate purposes to police and municipal councils. In other cases, where third parties. requests are infrequent, an agreement will be entered into at the time. A few examples may assist in illustrating these problems. At present the Road Safety Act makes it It is an offence under the proposed provisions for a an offence for Vicroads and its employees and person who obtains information under a contractors to divulge the contents of a record kept confidentiality agreement to disclose or use the under the act unless the disclosure is made in information other than for a purpose specified in the connection with the administration of the act, legal agreement. That is the case whether or not the proceedings under the act, or to the Transport person is a party to the agreement. The intention of Accident Commission. this latter provision is that Vicroads will only be required to have a confidentiality agreement with Parking offences arise under the act and therefore a the principal person or authority in a given municipal council is able to receive information from situation. Other people who act under the control or Vicroads as to the name and address of the direction of the principal will be bound by the terms registered owner of a car in order to deal with a of the agreement. parking offence. However, if the car is not involved in an offence under the act but in, say, a bank In regard to the Victoria Police, for example, it is robbery, information about the registered ownership expected that Vicroads will have a confidentiality of the car cannot be lawfully obtained by the police agreement with the chief commissioner or his from Vicroads records unless the Minister for Roads delegate and that agreement will govern the actions and Ports gives a direction to Vicroads under the of other members of the police force. The bill Crimes Act. This is an extremely cumbersome requires that such an agreement must specify: procedure and it has been found quite unsatisfactory in practice. the purposes for which the information is required; The bill overcomes this difficulty by providing that information may be disclosed to law enforcement the means of providing it; agencies for the purposes of the investigation or prosecution of offences of any kind and the the means of protecting confidentiality; and enforcement of judgments and orders in the criminal jurisdiction. an undertaking that the information will only be used for the purposes specified. LAND (REVOCATION OF MISCELLANEOUS RESERVATIONS) BILL

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The means of protecting confidentiality in the case of simple piece of legislation which the opposition does the police might include the giving of an instruction not oppose and which will not require substantial under the Police Regulation Act 1958 which would debate. The bill seeks to revoke reservations on be enforceable under that act. Other means would Crown grants and must be the subject of serious include the keeping of audit trails and periodic consideration, although at first reading the monitoring of the procedures to ensure adherence. substance of the debate may not necessarily reflect that. The opposition is satisfied that the process the Representations have been made to the government government used to reach its conclusions was by the insurance industry and the legal profession appropriate and that the decisions that flow from the asking that information as to registered ownership legislation will result in satisfactory outcomes at the be disclosed to intending litigants in order to local level. facilitate litigation. However, with one or two exceptions the bill does not deal with the civil The bill provides for the revocation of permanent jurisdiction. It is proposed that civil matters be reservations of lands described in the schedules to considered in the context of the government's the bill to either facilitate sale of those lands or response to the recent report of the Data Protection because the purposes of the reservations are no Advisory Council (DPAC). longer appropriate for the existing or proposed uses of the land. One exception to the proposition that civil matters are not dealt with in this bill is that the Sheriff may Clause 3 of the bill deals with land at the corner of use the information to enforce judgments and orders Nicholson and Riverine streets, Bairnsdale, which in of courts in their civil jurisdictions. It should also be 1877 was permanently reserved as the site for a shire noted that disclosure to or by a court in compliance hall. The fact that we are considering a piece of land with an order made by it is also one of the permitted that has been in public ownership for 120 years is of exceptions to the need for a confidentiality itself evidence that these decisions must be taken agreement. In keeping with the DPAC report, seriously. The property has not been used as Vicroads will develop a code of practice which municipal offices for a number of years, currently includes procedures for monitoring compliance with houses an art gallery, is frequently used by a variety confidentiality agreements. of community groups for meetings and other purposes, and the Shire of East Gippsland proposes The bill aims to provide an appropriate balance to convert it into an arts and cultural centre and has between the individual's right to privacy and the agreed that the site should be appropriately community expectation that effective law re-reserved. enforcement will not be frustrated by denying access to relevant information held by government Clause 4 deals with a small piece of land in one of agencies. the most beautiful parts of Victoria near Skenes Creek. It is on the north side of the Great I commend the bill to the house. Ocean Road and is part of an area that was permanently reserved for the protection of the Debate adjourned on motion of Hon. PAT POWER coastline in 1981. It has been established that more (Jika Jika). than 50 years ago a house was constructed on the land. It is not generally accessible to the public and it Debate adjourned until next day. is sensibly proposed to revoke the permanent reservation over the amount of land that is necessary LAND (REVOCATION OF to enable the sale of the land on which the house is MISCELLANEOUS RESERVATIONS) located to the adjoining owners. BILL Clause 5 deals with 420 square metres of land Second reading adjacent to the junction of the Phillip Island Tourist Road and the Churchill Island access road in Debate resumed from 24 April; motion of Mr Smith's electorate. An area of land which Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (Minister for Industry, includes Churchill Island was previously Science and Technology). permanently reserved as a site of natural beauty and of historic interest. As Mr Smith will no doubt Hon. PAT POWER (Jika Jika) - The Land inform the house if he has an opportunity of (Revocation of Miscellaneous Reservations) Bill is a speaking, Phillip Island and Churchill Island are LAND (REVOCA nON OF MISCELLANEOUS RESERVA nONS) BILL

596 COUNCIL Thursday, 1 May 1997 situated in some of the most beautiful country in allow for the revocation of part of that area to make Victoria, and Churchill Island is of historic it possible for the neighbouring land-owners to significance. Because of the dangerous nature of the purchase that land pursuant to under a current access road to Churchill Island and the Valuer-General's valuation, if they wish to do so. It amount of tourist traffic that uses it, Vicroads is a practical and sensible result that will ensure considers it is of the utmost importance to carry out flexibility for all parties. I hasten to add that there is work that will make the intersection safer. no risk to the environment in that area because there is no public access to that house and over the years I reiterate that the opposition will not oppose the the surrounding vegetation has stabilised and bill, which it believes has been properly assessed by regrown. the government in consultation with the community. The last reservation dealt with in the bill involves a Hon. B. W. BISHOP (North Western) - I have small area of land at Phillip Island, one of Victoria's pleasure in speaking on the bill. Although Mr Power leading tourist areas. The land is in the electorate of correctly referred to it as a relatively small bill, I am Mr Smith, who represents his area strongly, and I sure the house will appreciate that it is important. It have no doubt he will say a few words on the bill. is certainly important to the communities affected by The land in question is at the junction of the the changes it will put in place. Churchill Island access road and the Phillip Island Tourist Road. The area was purchased years ago by I am pleased to be involved in the work of a the Victorian Trust for Nature as a nature reserve, is government bills committee which responds to therefore under the control of the Crown and will be changed circumstances in local communities and preserved for its natural beauty and historic interest. provides appropriate scrutiny of proposals for the revocation of reservations of land that come up for Most honourable members would know the consideration from time to time. The committee Churchill Island homestead and farm, which attract recognises changes that have occurred over time, many tourists to the island. No doubt earlier settlers especially in relation to government land. would be staggered by the amount of traffic that now uses the access road and the area to be excised An excellent example of a change in use of land will facilitate roadworks designed to make the concerns a block of land in Baimsdale which is the intersection safer for both locals and tourists. subject of a Crown grant and has been under the control of the former Bairnsdale shire since 1877. The bill also includes technical provisions relating to Prior to amalgamation it was used as a site for land bills and provides the wherewithal for the municipal offices, but as the result of local initiative process contained in the bill. It is an interesting, if and support from the community the building is small, bill that reflects the changing requirements of now a small art gallery and is used for community the community in respect of Crown land. I meetings and so on. commend the bill to the house.

Following the successful completion of local Hon. K. M. SMITH (South Eastern) - I am government amalgamations, the Shire of East pleased to be involved in debate on this small but Gippsland is now the responsible municipal body. important bill. Clause 5 will revoke a reservation on The community now wishes to extend the use of the the Phillip Island Tourist Road where it intersects building and make it a larger arts and cultural with the Churchill Island access road involving a centre, at the same time adapting it to better piece of land only 420 square metres in area. The bill accommodate meetings. I congratulate the shows the government's flexibility in introducing a community and the East Gippsland shire on this measure to change what is considered to be a move, which will generate both local and tourist reasonably dangerous intersection to make it safer. interest, and in that way will be good for Baimsdale and for Victoria as a whole. Phillip Island is becoming the real mecca of tourism in this state following the approval of the proposed The bill also deals with a small portion of land at development at the seal rocks at The Nobbies and Skenes Creek on the Great Ocean Road. The road is the return of the motorcycle grand prix, initiatives one of Victoria's most spectacular tourist routes and put in place by the Kennett government. In addition, provides some wonderful outlooks along the coast. proposals have been put forward for the Approximately 50 years ago a house was construction of hotel and convention facilities. Many accidentally built on a reservation and the bill will tourists visit Churchill Island to enjoy its ecotourism EDUCATION (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL

Thursday, 1 May 1997 COUNCIL 597 facilities. The island is reached from the Phillip make the island even more magnificent. The Island Tourist Road via a small bridge and has on it Premier, with the support of the Leader of the an old homestead that for a long time has been Government, made pledges in respect of Churchill looked after by the Friends of Churchill Island. Island. The government will maintain that wonderful facility for the people of Victoria for a The Friends of Churchill Island group has done a very long time. It is a pleasure to be associated with fantastic job over the years, despite being starved of the bill. funds for a long period. I am not critical of the former Labor government in that regard, but the Motion agreed to. friends group has held the homestead together with the help of rangers and others who work there. It is Read second time. necessary to visit the island, look over some of the old-style fences, gaze at the cattle - a special breed Third reading that has been there for more than 100 years - and look across the waters of Western Port bay to the Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (Minister for Industry, mainland to appreciate its tranquillity and serenity. Science and Technology) - By leave, I move: Although not enough people visit the island, an increase in numbers might detract from its That this bill be now read a third time. tranquillity. I thank Mr Power for his contribution and I Shortly I will be moving into a beautiful new particularly thank Mr Bishop for his contribution. electorate office in Wonthaggi, which is closer to His interest in an area that is a long distance from Churchill and Phillip islands. However, in my his electorate shows his interest in Victoria extends current office in Cranboume I have some beautiful well beyond the boundaries of that very large pictures of Churchill Island which show some of the electorate. I also thank Mr Smith for his generous cottages and the homestead, as well as the trees that comments. have grown in a particular way because of the action of the wind. Those trees are special and the island Motion agreed to. setting is unique. I am pleased to be associated with the bill and to be a member of Parliament Read third time. representing Churchill and Phillip islands, as well as the magnificent and exotic French Island. Remaining stages

Hon. Pat Power - I might take a run down there Passed remaining stages. on Sunday instead of going to the May Day march! It sounds fantastic! EDUCATION (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL Hon. M. A. Birrell - There will probably be just as many people there! Second reading

Hon. K. M. SMITH - They will all be having fun Debate resumed from 24 April; motion of down at Churchill Island, I can tell you that! In Hon. R.I. KNOWLES (Minister for Health). conclusion, in about 1994 I was lucky to have the opportunity to visit Churchill Island with the then Hon. P. R. HALL (Gippsland) - I support the Minister for Conservation and Environment, who is Education (Further Amendment) Bill. I also thank now the Minister for Industry, Science and Miss Gould for allowing me to speak first, given that Technology. Our initial visit was to look at the island I have a commitment in a few minutes. and at some of its problems, and the government made a significant contribution to its funding. This is a simple bill which widens the scope of regulations that will be made under the Education I was also lucky to visit there during the launch of Act by allowing the making of regulations that the government's conservation plan, when the confer a discretionary authority on a person. Persons Premier also visited the island. The Premier was also to whom an authority to make regulations may be taken by the beauty of Churchill Island, and the delegated include the minister, who is the person Leader of the Government and I were able to talk to who would normally make many of the regulations, him about making further contributions to help the secretary of the Department of Education, EDUCATION (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL

598 COUNCIL Thursday, 1 May 1997 regional directors and school principals. Other should be taken at the local level by people who best officers of the education department may also be understand the local circumstances. delegated the power to make regulations in appropriate circumstances. The bill is a practical measure that is in line with the policies of governments of all persuasion to devolve This is a sensible administrative measure, given that greater authority and responsibility to schools. I add the education department administers my strong support to this practical and sensible approximately 1700 state schools and that different measure. circumstances apply in different schools. When regulations are made for one school or a group of Hon. M. M. GOULD (Doutta Galla) - The schools it makes a great deal of sense for them to be opposition does not oppose the Education (Further made at a local level so that they better reflect local Amendment) Bill which, as Mr Hall said, is circumstances. essentially a housekeeping measure. The bill clarifies and widens the scope of the regulations under the An example of a circumstance in which it may be Education Act by conferring discretionary authority better to delegate the regulation-making power is on persons such as the Minister for Education, the the situation of schools in my electorate in relation to secretary to the department the principal of a school. Melbourne Cup Day. They have a holiday on Traralgon show day in lieu of the cup day holiday. Mr Hall outlined a number of instances in which it is Although there is a horserace known as the appropriate that those discretionary powers be Traralgon Cup it would not be recognised as a major given to a principal. He mentioned bushfires, floods event for school children. and other climatic conditions that may prevent children from either attending or leaving school. The The closure of schools in emergency circumstances is amendments will allow a principal to act in the best another example of a circumstance that is suitable interests of the school community without requiring for the delegation of the power to make regulations. authority from the education department. In his second-reading speech the minister spoke about the many instances in country areas of schools The bill clarifies the powers set out in section 83 of closing in emergencies such as bushfires and floods. the principal act. As I said, the amendments are minor and do not widen the scope of the powers Hon. Andrew Brideson - Snow is another expressed in the act. They will affect the election of circumstance. A school in my electorate closed school councils. The opposition believes the because of snow. regulations applying to school councils should be examined, along with other issues that have arisen Hon. P. R. HALL - Certainly climatic conditions from time to time in the education system. I refer such as bushfires have closed schools on a specifically to the removal of the protection of the temporary basis. Floods are another circumstance Crown for actions taken by school councils. Initially where there may be a risk of a school being isolated the opposition was concerned about the possible and children not being able to return home as the widening of the minister's powers but was advised flood waters rise. Given those examples of that they would be clarified rather than widened. circumstances where decisions need to be made at a The opposition supports the bill because it is a local level the delegation by the minister or the commonsense machinery measure that will remove regional director of the authority to make the risk of regulations being declared unlawful. regulations at the local level is extremely important and appropriate. The Scrutiny of Acts and Regulations Committee reviewed the bill and expressed concerns similar to Another example concerns transport services. Issues those raised by the opposition. The committee wrote of eligibility to travel on school buses and the to the minister for clarification, but I understand that changing of school bus routes cause problems for it has not met since the letter was written so the country members of Parliament, who invariably clarification is not available to the house. I look receive many inquiries from constituents about forward to the minister clarifying the issues raised those matters. There is a need to adjudicate on the by the committee. As I have said, the opposition eligibility of students to access school buses and supports the bill because the amendments will from time to time to look at school bus routes. Once reduce the possibility of challenges to the again it is appropriate that those sorts of decisions regulation-making powers. EDUCATION (FURTHER AMENDMENT) BILL

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Hon. ANDREW BRIDESON (Waverley) - I The present requirement for a certificate under support the amendments to the Education Act, the section 13 of the Subordinate Legislation Act is purpose of which is to amend the regulation-making cumbersome in two respects. There is always a risk powers. I welcome the opposition's support of the that such a certificate may not be granted for a amendments. As Miss Gould said, this bill is a variety of reasons or, if it is granted, it may be housekeeping measure. It is a pity that the press is subject to challenge on the ground that it is not valid not present to see the bipartisan support that many in the absence of express authorisation for the bills have. delegation of powers under the act. It is not conceivable that this or any other government could The act contains no express powers to make function adequately without such a provision as is regulations which confer a discretionary authority or proposed. propose a duty or leave any matter to be determined or approved by a specified person such as the Regulations cannot function properly or efficiently if minister, secretary to the department or principal of they are subject to challenge or there is uncertainty a school, to which powers can be delegated. The about their being subject to revocation or expiry absence of such powers means the necessary without renewal. It is not only the question of regulations that confer a discretionary authority or efficiency that makes such an amendment necessary. impose a duty, or leave any matter to be determined Any democratically elected government and its or approved by a person, are at risk of being held to ministers must be able to function without be ultra vires on the ground that they amount to an interference and without being burdened with the unlawful delegation of power from the Governor in eternal possibility that their hands are tied in basic Council to the recipient of the discretion of power. matters of administration. The amendments substitute new section 83, which reads: If the existing regulations are challenged on the ground that they are beyond power, the amendment Regulations made under this Act - will enable new regulations to be made without disruption to the status quo in the education system. (a) may be of general or limited application; It will grant the power to make such delegation (b) may differ according to differences in time, place or necessary for the administration and proper and circumstances; efficient functioning of the education system.

(c) may confer a discretionary authority or impose a Miss Gould and Mr Hall have given some examples duty on, or leave any matter to be determined or of education regulations, and I will add to the list. approved by, a specified person or class of The house is aware of regulations which have the persons.... capacity to close schools in emergency situations The amendments reflect the current practice in due to climatic extremes. The minister will also have respect of regulations made under a number of acts power to approve the formation of school welfare as set out in the second-reading speech. The bill clubs. The minister will have a duty to determine brings the Education Act into line with other acts days on which schools are open for attendance, and and will promote efficient practices. honourable members have heard the classic example of what happens in country areas with substitute Because the current situation is governed by the holidays for the Melbourne Cup. Another example is Education Regulations 1988, which will expire in the duty of parents to sign admission forms when 1999, the amending legislation is all the more enrolling children. This is a simple housekeeping bill necessary to ensure the efficient administration of that will ensure the education system will continue the schools system. The amendment is necessary to run smoothly. I have pleasure in supporting it. because the current code of practice demands that new regulations be made annually to determine the Motion agreed to. dates of school terms, to approve of transport services for students, to grant scholarships and Read second time. education allowances, to stipulate the appropriate times for school closures and public holidays, and, as the Honourable Peter Hall mentioned, to deal with emergencies. POLICE AND CORRECTIONS (AM ENDM ENT) BILL

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Third reading person on an individual basis. Any decision to exempt must be considered in relation to general Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Minister for Health) - By guidelines, if any, issued by the minister. Any leave, I move: guidelines issued by the minister need to be published in the Government Gazette. As part of the That this bill be now read a third time. accountability process the chief commissioner must report to the minister on approvals granted by the I thank Miss Gould, Mr Hall and Mr Brideson for chief commissioner. their support for the measure. Corrections Act 1986 Motion agreed to. The amendments to this act are designed to facilitate Read third time. the contracting out of the escort and transportation functions the police currently undertake in relation Remaining stages to detained persons. By enabling the contracting out of these functions police resources can be better Passed remaining stages. deployed to concentrate on core police functions. Highly trained police and their resources can be POLICE AND CORRECTIONS reallocated to duties more appropriate to their skills (AMENDMENT) BILL with a better outcome for the community safety in terms of crime prevention and detection. Second reading The bill enables the chief commissioner to enter Hon. G. R. CRAIGE (Minister for Roads and agreements in relation to the escort and transport of Ports) - I move: persons and to authorise the exercise of certain powers. The bill makes provision for a person That this bill be now read a second time. authorised under an agreement to carry out the transport function which would otherwise be The bill will make amendments to a number of acts, provided by a member of the police force. and I will deal with each main act in turn. To ensure accountability, in all cases where a person Control of Weapons Act 1990 is being transported under the agreements the legal custody remains with chief commissioner, and The Australasian Police Ministers Council (APMC) provision is made for monitors for the agreements. on the advice of police commissioners from all Monitors are required to make an annual report to jurisdictions has agreed to a common approach to the chief commissioner for inclusion in the chief the control of body armour. In essence the commissioner's annual report. possession or sale of body armour is to be prohibited except where an exemption - general or To facilitate the transport of juveniles, amendments individual - applies. made to the Children and Young Persons Act 1989 will allow searches to be completed prior to Underlying the approach is a concern that the transportation by the staff at the relevant centre. unregulated sale or posseSSion of body armour by Consequential amendments are made to the persons who do not have a legitimate reason for Children and Young Persons Act and the Crimes Act their actions heightens fear of crime and hampers 1958 to recognise that the legal custody of persons enforcement by police. being escorted or under transport will be deemed to be that of the chief commissioner and therefore The Governor in Council may by order exempt any escape will be deemed to be from the chief class of person from the exemption and there are commissioner's custody. agreed classes of persons recognised by the APMC. Any order may specify conditions or limitations on Amendment is also made to the Sentencing Act 1991 the exemption. The order of the Governor in Council to enable police to carry out the transport function of must be published. offenders to or from a psychiatric in-patient service unless a court otherwise specifically orders and for The bill provides for the Chief Commissioner of custody to be deemed to be that of the chief Police to be able to approve the exemption of any commissioner. POLICE AND CORRECTIONS (AMENDMEI'i'T) BILL

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Firearms Act 1996 the establishment of Project Guardian to examine and make recommendations concerning options The Australasian Police Ministers Council agreed as for addressing and safeguarding the ethical part of the firearms national firearms agreement in standards within Victoria Police; relation to clay target shooting to ensure that junior licence-holders have access to category C firearms. the recent organisational moves within Victoria The bill will provide for that. The remaining Police to establish an Ethical Standards amendments to the act are to clarify the intent of or Department to implement the ultimate improve the operation of the act. recommendations of Project Guardian, including a revamp of internal investigation procedures; The bill amends the Firearms Act 1996 and the Magistrates' Court Act 1989 to clarify that certain development of a customer commitment strategy; serious offences are indictable offences but may be and triable summarily. This amendment clarifies the intent of the act's penalty provisions and ensures specific investigations into serious misconduct that the Significant penalties provided for under the such as Operation Bart. act are able to be imposed. To further advance these initiatives, amendments to A further amendment clarifies that the time period the legislation are needed to streamline investigation for surrender of firearms when a licence expires processes and to enhance disciplinary processes. The commences after any appeal decision is given or the bill will: licence expires, whichever occurs last. This amendment makes the time requirements for remove the barrier against members of the police disposal of firearms for a licence-holder whose force complaining to the Deputy Ombudsman licence is not renewed consistent with a (Police Complaints) about the conduct of another licence-holder whose licence is cancelled. The member; firearms must be disposed of within 28 days of the licence expiring or of any appeal, whichever is the maintain the requirement for misconduct to be latter. The amendment enhances consistency in the investigated by the Chief Commissioner of Police act. with minor complaints to be dealt with at a management level; The bill provides for notification, by the applicant, of police and the party in whose favour an intervention formalise the protocols by which the Deputy order was made, when an application for relief from Ombudsman (Police Complaints) is advised of all prohibited person status is made and for the ability serious internal investigations; for the other party to appear. This amendment will ensure that the court in making a decision on any extend the disciplinary system to cover reservists application for relief from a prohibited person status and protective services officers; is fully informed. improve the capacity to deal with members unfit The bill will also clarify the powers of police and for duty as a police officer; protective service officers in relation to carrying firearms. The powers of fisheries and wildlife enhance the flexibility of sanctions against officers to enforce firearms related offences have also members found guilty of criminal offences; and been detailed. The powers are similar to those they exercise under the Firearms Act 1958. correct inappropriate references to repealed provisions. Police Regulation Act 1958 Remove the barrier against members of the police force The amendments to the Police Regulation Act are complaining to the Deputy Ombudsman (Police designed to build on recent measures implemented Complaints) about the conduct of another member by police command and further enhance the accountability and ethics of Victoria Police. Recent At present, the Police Regulation Act 1958 prevents a measures have included: member of the police force from making a complaint to the Deputy Ombudsman (Police Complaints) about criminal conduct or serious misconduct of POLICE AND CORRECTIONS (AMENDMENT) BILL

602 COUNCIL Thursday, 1 May 1997 another member. This prohibition reduces the Formalise the protocols by which the Deputy effectiveness of the complaints mechanism and Ombudsman (Police Complaints) is advised of all inhibits the ability of the Victoria Police to prevent internal investigations corruption within the force. The bill will legislate for the current informal The amendment will allow members of the police arrangement whereby the Deputy Ombudsman force to make a complaint to the Deputy (Police Complaints) investigates or reviews internal Ombudsman (Police Complaints) about the criminal investigations regarding misconduct where advice conduct or misconduct of another member. This of that misconduct has not arisen as a result of a measure will strengthen the accountability of the complaint from a member of the public. This will force, providing members with another formal provide a consistent approach to investigating avenue to act on misconduct by fellow members. misconduct, so that the Deputy Ombudsman (Police Complaints) is able to act regardless of the source of The definition of Jconduct' applicable to this the reference. amendment would be extended to include the off-duty conduct of members to ensure that Likewise, where the Chief Commissioner of Police members maintain ethical standards at a initiates an investigation of serious misconduct there professional and personal level. should also be a requirement to advise the Deputy Ombudsman (Police Complaints) of the Maintain the requirement for misconduct to be commencement of all investigations. This will investigated by the Chief Commissioner of Police with provide for conSistency of approach. This measure minor complaints to be dealt with at a management level would also apply to police reservists and protective services officers to ensure they are also subject to a Under the act the chief commissioner must formally disciplinary system consistent with the processes investigate all complaints made by a member of the applying to police. public. This includes complaints of minor misconduct which do not amount to a breach of Improve the capacity to deal with members unfit for duty discipline or a criminal offence, such as that which as a police officer may be made at station level and could be described as customer service issues. The requirement to The bill extends the power for the chief mount a formal investigation into minor complaints commissioner to inquire into the fitness and capacity is resource intensive and has the effect of moving of individual members to perform their duties as a accountability away from the appropriate level of police officer. Currently the chief commissioner may management. Further, the chief commissioner must inquire into the fitness or capacity of a police also report such minor matters to the Deputy member to discharge his or her duties only at the Ombudsman (Police Complaints), which is a further member's request in terms of health reasons. In such resource burden for both offices. cases if the member is found to be incapacitated by infirmity of mind or body the member may be It is more appropriate that minor complaints made retired on the grounds of ill health. by either the public or by a member of the Victoria Police be resolved as a component of responsible The chief commissioner may initiate an inquiry and and accountable station level management. For subsequently dismiss a police member who is found similar reasons, the requirement for the chief to be incapable or inefficient in performing his or her commissioner to report such minor matters to the duties, except where that condition is caused by deputy ombudsman does not assist the effective infirmity of mind or body. To maintain the efficiency resolution of these matters as a management issue. of and public confidence in the force an amendment is necessary to remove this anomaly. The definition of Jconduct' applicable to this amendment would be extended to include the Where the Chief Commissioner of Police is satisfied off-duty conduct of members to ensure that that the member is incapacitated he may discharge members maintain ethical standards at a the member on medical grounds. It is intended that professional and personal level. this measure be implemented as an act of last resort. Where possible other interventions will be made to remedy problems experienced by individual police officers. POLICE AND CORRECTIONS (AMENDMENT) BILL

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Discharge by the chief commissioner will not The nature of the persons being transported and the automatically entitle a member to superannuation need to ensure that transportation is carried out entitlements. lhls decision will continue to be made mean the amendment is desirable. Persons by the relevant superannuation authority. undertaking transport need to be confident that in acting in accordance with the section they will be Enhance the flexibility of sanctions against members protected from proceedings against them when found guilty of criminal offences acting properly.

An amendment is to be made to further strengthen I wish to make a statement under section 85(5) of the disciplinary powers where a member has been Constitution Act 1975 of the reasons why proposed charged with a criminal offence punishable by section 361 of the Crimes Act 1958 (as amended by imprisonment and the charge has been found clause 51 of the bill) is to alter or vary section 85 of proven. The current limitation on the chief the Constitution Act 1975 in relation to the commissioner whereby only one penalty from a jurisdiction of the Supreme Court. Clause 53 of the range of sanctions may be made is to be removed to bill inserts a new section 585 in the Crimes Act 1958 enable a combination of certain penalties - prOviding that it is the intention of section 361 of the reprimand, reduction in rank and reduction of act (as amended by the bill) to alter section 85 of the remuneration - or one of the other sanctions Constitution Act 1975. currently available. This amendment overcomes an unnecessary limitation. Clause 51 of the bill amends section 361 of the Crimes Act 1958 by inserting a new subsection (4) to Statements under section 85 of the Constitution extend the application of the section to police gaols Act 1975 and other specified institutions. Section 361 of the Crimes Act 1958 enables the movement of persons in I wish to make a statement under section 85(5) of the a prison to and from a prison for the purpose of Constitution Act 1975 of the reasons why court appearances. Section 361 also provides that a section 9CB of the Corrections Act 1986 - as person who uses acts in accordance with the section amended by clause 14 of the bill - is to alter or vary is not liable by reason of any removal or detainer section 85 of the Constitution Act 1975 in relation to under that section. The new references means that the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court. Clause 16 persons acting in relation to police gaols and the inserts a new section lIIA(2) into the Corrections specified institutions will also have this immunity. Act 1986. Proposed section ll1A(2) provides that it is the intention of section 9CB of the act (as amended The reasons for limiting the jurisdiction of the by the bill) to alter or vary section 85 of the Supreme Court are as follows: this section is to be Constitution Act 1975. extended to apply to police gaols and other specified institutions. Historically police or other officers have Clause 14 of the Bill amends section 9CB(1) of the undertaken this function as part of their traditional Corrections Act 1986 by inserting a reference to new duties to assist court functions. The amendment section 9A(1B). Section 9CB, among other things, clarifies the legislative base in a way that provides provides that a person who uses reasonable force in consistency with the process applicable to prisons. In accordance with the section is not liable for injury addition the existing immunity provided to persons caused by that use of force. The new reference acting in accordance with the section is similarly means that persons authorised under the new applied. The amendment is desirable to ensure that section 9A(1B) will also have this immunity. persons required to carry out the function of ensuring a detained person's attendance to assist the The reasons for limiting the jurisdiction of the proper functioning of a court are confident that they Supreme Court are as follows. The provision of are protected from proceedings against them when transport services under agreements with the Chief acting properly. Commissioner of Police will require the movement of prisoners and detained persons to and from The bill makes a number of diverse amendments to various institutions. At times it will be necessary for various acts which enhance the operation of police authorised persons under those agreements to use and corrections functions in this state. reasonable force to ensure the transport function is carried out. I commend the bill to the house. OFFICE OF THE REGULATOR-GENERAL (AMENDMENT) BILL

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Debate adjourned for Hon. D. A. NARDELLA Clause 4, the second substantive clause, amends (Melbourne North) on motion of sections 39A(1) and 39A(3)(a) of the principal act. Hon. M. M. Gould. Section 39A(1) currently provides that:

Debate adjourned until next day. A person must not disclose any confidential or commercially sensitive information obtained during the OFFICE OF THE course of the person's duties under this act. REGULATOR-GENERAL (AMENDMENT) BILL The bill amends that provision to read:

Second reading ... or in connection with this act.

Debate resumed from 22 April; motion of That expands and toughens the whistleblowing Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Minister for Finance). provisions. Offenders can be fined 100 penalty points or imprisoned for two years, which is Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS Gika Jika) - This is significant, for disclosing information obtained a small bill which is quite important. Essentially it during the course of employment not only under the deals with the flow of information to the act but now also in connection with the act. The Regulator-General in this state. The opposition takes exception to that amendment. Regulator-General has a very important task to perform in the context of the newly privatised The opposition has no difficulty with the rest of the electricity industry. The bill is supposed to clarify legislation. In fact, the second change in clause 4 the powers of the Regulator-General under the works in reverse. Section 39A(3)(a) currently Office of the Regulator-General Act in relation to provides that a person may disclose or use such obtaining information and the extent of offences information if: relating to unauthorised disclosure by employees of the office. ... the disclosure or use is made in the performance of a duty under, or in connection with, this act; The bill has two simple provisions that have some far-reaching ramifications, the first of which clarifies The amendment adds the words: that the power of the office to obtain information or documents extends to information or documents or any relevant legislation. other than that provided to the office by a licence-holder in accordance with licence That expands the escape clause for a whistleblower. requirements. Essentially it allows the office to On the one hand there is a tightening of the obtain more information. Clause 3 substitutes whistleblower provision in the change to section section 27 AA of the Office of the Regulator-General 39A(1), but on the other hand the change to section Act, which currently provides that part 3A of the act 39A(3)(a) allows disclosure even if it is not in does not apply to information or a document: connection with the act but relates to other relevant legislation. The opposition has no difficulty with the ... relating to or provided by the holder of a licence second part of the proposal. The bill has only two issued by the office under this act or any relevant substantive amendments: the first is clause 3 and the legislation; second is clause 4. We agree with clause 3 and half of clause 4. The bill amends that so that part 3A of the act does not apply to information or a document: The other option open to the opposition was to oppose that portion of the clause in the committee that is provided to the office by the holder of a licence stage. I have made our position clear now rather issued by the office under this act or any relevant than going through that process. That is the reason legislation in accordance with the requirements of the why the opposition will oppose the second reading licence; of the bill.

That expands the powers of the office with regard to The central point is that although the bill is small it obtaining information by the office. has significant ramifications. The subject with which the bill deals - information collected by the Regulator-General that mayor may not be passed to OFFICE OF THE REGt:LATOR-GENERAL (AMENDMENT) BILL

Thursday, 1 May 1997 COUNCIL 605 the community - is important because of reasoned amendment, but I invite the Leader of the accoWltability. For that reason the opposition is not OppOSition to suggest why I should perhaps rule convinced by the arguments of the government, otherwise. certainly about whistleblowers. Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - Thank you, Therefore, I move: Mr President, for your guidance on these matters. I have carefully examined the ruling on reasoned That all the words after 'That' be omitted with the view amendments you made at my request some time of inserting in place thereof 'this house refuses to read ago. I agree that the central question is relevance. this bill a second time until the government Another issue identified in May refers to the demonstrates its commitment to providing appropriate reasoned amendment being declaratory of some and adequate information on its privatisation program principle adverse to or differing from the principles, to the Parliament and people of Victoria by - policy or provisions of the bill. Clearly, the proposed reasoned amendment meets that part of May. (a) bringing before the Parliament a set of guidelines relating to commercial in confidence, approved by The central question then becomes whether it is the Auditor-General, that will ensure that this relevant. The bill essentially deals with the flow of mechanism is no longer used as a major pretext for information. It deals, on the one hand, with the refusing information to the Parliament and the abilities of the Regulator-General to collect people of Victoria; and information and, on the other hand, with the ability (b) introducing in Victoria a system of supplying of the Regulator-General to collect on behalf of the summary contracts to Parliament prepared by the community information that is commercial in Auditor-General and containing all details of the confidence. It expands the right of the contract other than those details determined by the Regulator-General on the collection of information. Auditor-General to be commercial in confidence, It also restricts the power of people working in the similar to those operating in both South Australia Regulator-General's office to disseminate that and New South Wales'. information, again on the basis of whether it is commercial in confidence. The PRESIDENT - Order! It is appropriate to comment on the proposed reasoned amendment to Hon. R. M. Hallam - I am not sure it is based on see whether it accords with the practices of the that. house. The Leader of the Opposition will recall that in 1995, at his request, I gave a ruling on reasoned Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - It is. The amendments based on the precedents. The central information cannot be provided by anybody from precedent is spelt out at page 475 of May; there is no the Regulator-General's office if it is commercial in specific standing order dealing with this matter. We confidence. Paragraph Ca) of the proposed reasoned are entitled to look at past rulings, and I have amendment deals with the lack of guidelines. The spoken about the paucity of those. At that page May government has not developed guidelines but a outlines that the principle of relevancy is the major subcommittee of the Public Accounts and Estimates issue: Committee is examining guidelines. The opposition is saying that the house should not pass the bill Wltil The amendment must 'strictly relate to the bill which the findings of that subcommittee have been the house, by its order, has resolved upon announced and guidelines have been established. If considering' ... the information is unnecessarily classified as commercial in confidence because of a lack of The question is whether the proposals put by the guidelines, the expansion of power the bill gives to Leader of the Opposition meet those parameters. the Regulator-General- - The reasoned amendment is in three sections: the introduction, which talks about refusing to read the Hon. Bill Forwood - Who classifies it as bill until 'the government demonstrates its commercial in confidence? commitment to providing appropriate information' to Parliament and the people of Victoria; then two Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - That is the whole subsets which are in greater detail and a broader point. It is classified presumably by the distribution setting. companies, the generating companies or whoever wants to classify it. The Regulator-General does not My inclination at this stage is to say that at least make that decision. As Mr Forwood is aware, there paragraphs (a) and (b) are outside the scope of a OFFICE OF THE REGULATOR-GENERAL (AMENDMENT) BILL

606 COUNCIL Thursday, 1 May 1997 are no guidelines. That is part of the reason for the provided to the Parliament and the people of subcommittee's inquiry. 'Commercial in confidence' Victoria. However, the bill does not deal with the is a tag that nearly everybody uses when he or she privatisation program at all; it deals, as I said, with feels like it. The bill expands the capacity to collect the conduct and the management of the Office of the the commercial-in-confidence information but does Regulator-General. It should also be pointed out that not correspondingly allow the community to have many of the functions of the Office of the access to it. On that basis I argue strongly that at Regulator-General involve utilities that are not least paragraph (a) ought to be allowed. privatised, so any attempt to link the office and the details of the privatisation program is also not valid. In relation to paragraph (b), many of the matters dealt with by the Regulator-General involve The amendment is not relevant. It is a bit like saying contracts that are made with various companies, we should not pass legislation until we send a rocket particularly large providers or consumers of to Mars simply because we will get a different look electricity, for the supply of electricity. at Earth from that planet. There is absolutely no link at all. I cannot see why the house should accept this Paragraph (b) would require those contracts to be amendment. provided to the community in summary form. Again, this goes to the question of the flow of The PRESIDENT - Order! The bill before the information. Although I understand your reluctance, house is very limited. The Leader of the Opposition Mr President, to allow the reasoned amendment on admitted that in his preamble to his arguments in the basis that the bill is fairly narrow, nevertheless support of the reasoned amendment. Consequently, this goes to the central question of the flow of I think the house should restrict itself to looking at a information going to the Regulator-General and, by reasoned amendment that relates strictly to the bill definition, to the community. itself. It is true that the Regulator-General plays a key role in the privatisation process because of the Although we do not follow precedents in another ongoing obligations he has for a lot of issues, such as place, the same amendment was allowed in that price setting. On the other hand, the bill does not place based on advice from the Clerk. One of the really deal with that. Also, it deals in a limited way major questions was a consideration of the with the type of information that is available to the conditions applying prior to the second-reading of Regulator-General. the bill. The reasoned amendment simply says that the bill should not come into play until the I have come to the conclusion that paragraphs (a) conditions outlined in it are met - and in this and (b) of the motion are much too broad and are instance they are practical conditions. It would mean clearly not amendments to the bill. They include the Public Accounts and Estimates Committee matters which the Leader of the Opposition can would be allowed to finish its inquiry, make its bring before the house in another form. I have recommendations, and establish the guidelines. trouble in seeing how the words 'people of Victoria' Then the house could go into the changes designed in the general lead-in fit in with the guidelines. to expand the role of the Regulator-General. However, the house has always shown some flexibility in those matters, so I propose to allow the Hon. C. A. STRONG (Higinbotham) - As you reasoned amendment up to the words 'people of say, Mr President, it is a matter of relevance. The bill Victoria'. deals with the conduct and management of the Office of the Regulator-General. I suggest the Ultimately, it is for the house to decide whether to amendment has nothing to do with that. It deals have a wholesale debate on all of this. Perhaps the with the question of privatisation. The preamble to minister could indicate his attitude to that. Certainly, paragraphs (a) and (b) talks about the government I am obliged to uphold the rulings of the house. My demonstrating its commitment to providing ruling is that paragraphs (a) and (b) are considerably appropriate and adequate information on its beyond the scope of this bill and that allowing them privatisation program to the Parliament and the to be part of the reasoned amendment would set an people of Victoria. undesirable precedent.

The whole amendment talks about the government Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Minister for Finance) - providing adequate information on the privatisation Without going into too much detail on the issues program to Parliament. Paragraphs (a) and (b) flow that have already been canvassed, I point out that at from that and say how that information should be the start of his remarks Mr Theophanous said he had OFFICE OF THE REGULATOR-GENERAL (AMENDMENT) BILL

Thursday, 1 May 1997 COUNCIL 607 something of a choice - to go to the issues that he again; it relates to the amendment of section 39A wanted to oppose during the committee stage or to inserted by clause 40) of the bill. Currently section seek the leave of the house to canvass them in 39AO) reads: general terms during the second-reading debate. Given that sort of choice, I am relaxed about the A person must not disclose any confidential or honourable member being given the opportunity to commercially-sensitive information obtained during canvass those issues, provided it is within the spirit the course of the person's duties under this act. of the ruling you have just given, Mr President. This expands the ambit. The effect of the legislation The PRESIDENT - Order! On that basis I will will now no longer be just 'under this act' but also allow the Leader of the Opposition to deal with the 'in connection with this act', which means that if general proposition in the introduction, up to the there is a piece of information that comes to the words 'people of Victoria'. Regulator-General- which does not strictly speaking come under the act but which he has There is one other issue I should mention - that is, obtained in some way - it is connected to the act. In the relevance of the debate in the Assembly. As you other words, there may not have been an obligation know, Council members are not permitted to refer to to provide the information. An example is a debates in the Assembly other than by reference to distribution company that may be providing what is reported in the newspapers. The mere fact information to the Regulator-General, as it is that a ruling is made in the Assembly does not required to do under the act. However, that mean, as I have demonstrated in the past, that it is a distribution company might decide voluntarily to ruling we should necessarily follow. provide some information to the Regulator-General which it is not really required to do under the act; it In passing, and I mean no disrespect to the Acting certainly may not have come to the Speaker Mr Cole, I point out that the ruling was not Regulator-General at his request. The same situation made by the Speaker or his deputy. The other point applies to any other piece of information that has to make is that, given the way the other place come into the hands of the Regulator-General and structures its business, it has limited opportunities has not strictly been requested under the proviSions for committee debates, whereas Council members of the act but is in some way connected to the have that opportunity on every bill. general operation of the office. That means that if people provided information of that sort they would Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS (Jika Jika) - Thank be subject to these provisions as well. It expands the you, Mr President, for your clarification of those coverage of what constitutes the disclosure of matters. By leave, I move: commercial-in-confidence or commercially sensitive information, as the subclause says. That all the words after 'that' be omitted with the view of inserting in place thereof 'this house refuses to read Hon. R. M. Hallam - I understand that bit. I do this bill a second time until the government not understand why you see that as a danger. demonstrates its commitment to providing appropriate and adequate information on its privatisation program Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - Minister, the to the Parliament and people of Victoria'. opposition has a problem with the way your government operates: you crush anyone who in any I also thank the minister for his indulgence. Let me way criticises the government - a whistleblower or begin by saying that the opposition is vehemently anyone else. In the past whistleblowers have done a opposed to the changes in clause 4, which in our tremendous public service to the community view represent an extension of the provisions because in all good conscience they could not take it already in place to gag whistleblowers. any longer; they could not take the cover-ups, the lies or the deceit so they made information publicly Hon. R. M. Hallam - You might explain how available. This has happened in the health and you get to that, because that has government ambulance services and a range of other areas. members absolutely mystified. Instead of trying to fix the problem the government goes after the whistleblower. Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - I went through the process of explaining it to Mr Strong and he Hon. R. M. Hallam - This issue is not about accepted the argument, but I am happy to explain it going after the whistleblower. The move comes as a to you, Minister. I will go through the argument direct recommendation of the Regulator-General to OFFICE OF THE REGULATOR-GENERAL (AMENDMENT) BILL

608 COUNCIL Thursday, 1 May 1997 strengthen the rules under which the system The problem with the legislation is that the clause operates. covers both examples. It covers the example where there is clear criminal intent as well as the example Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS -It may well come where the intent of the whistleblower is to provide a from a recommendation of the Regulator-General, public service. That is why at the end of the day we which concerns me even more. The opposition have to look at the question of commercial in would be concerned if the Regulator-General were confidence in a more reasoned way. The chairman of so secretive about the operations of his office. the subcommittee looking into the matter, Mr Forwood, is keen to try to develop a set of The opposition accepts that there is a need for a guidelines and to clarify these matters if possible. Regulator-General- which was the purpose behind what the opposition was trying to achieve, and what The other problem is that because we no longer have the Public Accounts and Estimates Committee is a publicly owned electricity industry the role of the trying to achieve. The purpose is to establish some Regulator-General becomes crucial in information guidelines for commercial-in-confidence issues. dissemination. Previously, when we had public Victoria is one of the places where these guidelines organisations, they had to report to Parliament; they do not seem to exist. The opposition is concerned were subject to the Auditor-General's auditing and about the lack of guidelines for what can be made to further information provisions as well. Publicly available on the one hand and on the other the owned organisations were subject to a range of strong whistleblower-type clause, which means that public accountability measures that ensured that the people can go to gaol for two years if they make community was confident about what was information available. happening.

Hon. R. M. Hallam - Commercially sensitive Now the utilities have been privatised they no information, perhaps. longer have to report to Parliament, they are no longer subject to audit by the Auditor-General and Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - I venture to say, they are no longer subject to the Freedom of Minister, that the Regulator-General would himself Information Act. That is one of the reasons we have make a distinction between persons who may an Office of the Regulator-General. provide commercial-in-confidence information­ for instance to a competitor - with a view to Everybody needs essential services such as obtaining some financial gain themselves. As you electricity. It is also a reason that we have a know, that could happen. If somebody working in Regulator-General: to ensure consumers are not the Regulator-General's office were to provide ripped off and that there is genuine competition and information provided by one distributor to another a whole range of other things. So the mechanism distributor and were to be paid for that information, becomes the Regulator-General as opposed to the it would be a serious offence. other mechanisms that were in place when the service utilities were publicly owned enterprises. It In that situation the Regulator-General is right to is in that context that the opposition is concerned seek to ensure that that does not occur, or that if it about how the Regulator-General operates. I have does occur the person is punished, which is not quite gone through the changes to the act so I do not the same thing. The problem here is that with this intend doing that again. kind of clause you finish up catching the person working in the Regulator-General's office who While the bill clarifies the powers of the Office of the comes across information that should be made Regulator-General to obtain information, in the same known in the public interest. That may not be clause it also increases the ambit of the information that the government wants to hear, but whistleblower and people who may be involved in it may be important from the community's point of illegal practices. The government should find a way view. For example, the information may be about a of ensuring that those two different examples are not malpractice committed by one of the distribution caught in the one provision. Again, it is an example companies, and the information may never see the of the government's lack of openness and light of day. However, I would not want to send a preparedness to look carefully at the implications of whistleblower who one way or another made its legislation. information about malpractice or collusion or some other serious issue publicly available go to gaol for Although it is desirable to have a whistleblower two years. provision to catch those people who, for their own OFFICE OF THE REGULATOR-GENERAL (AMENDMENT) BILL

Thursday, 1 May 1997 COUNCIL 609 personal gain, divulge commercial-in-confidence Under United States law, the information must be information to other distributors, it is also necessary publicly available and has consequently been placed to ensure that such a provision does not also catch on the Internet; the same information is not required people who provide information in the public to be publicly available in Victoria. The absurd interest. situation exists where the government says the information is commercial in confidence. Neither it There has been example after example of the way nor the Regulator-General can make it available, and this government operates. The Minister for Finance anybody from the Office of the Regulator-General does not take the necessary care, as shown by his leaking the information will be subject to two years record in Workcover. He has introduced provisions in gaol, yet at the same time the information is on designed to catch people abusing the system, but the Internet. That is the extent of the stupidity those same proviSions catch innocent people seeking surrounding the secrecy of this government. A large to make claims. The opposition is concerned about number of electricity assets have been sold off and the government's record of withholding information that has created the need for a strong and from Parliament and the people. We do not believe independent regulator to ensure the public interest these provisions address that problem in any form. is looked after.

Recently there has been a problem of power surges South Australia and New South Wales have developing in the system. I am sure Mr Strong is managed to deal with the commercial-in-confidence aware of the record number of power surges that problem and to find ways to limit the amount of have occurred. The level of service is no longer as information which might be classified as commercial high as it was when Mr Strong worked for the in confidence. I am sure your subcommittee, SECV. I am not suggesting this would have anything Mr Acting President, will consider those models to do with Mr Strong being there, I might say! during the course of your examination of this Nevertheless, I heard on the news today an item important issue. For example, in New South Wales about a ruling on power surges which indicated that summaries of privatisation contracts are provided the responsibility for them might fall back on the by the Auditor-General, are made public and are distribution companies, which have tried to get tabled in Parliament within 90 days of becoming around this question by arguing that power surges effective. The summaries are quite extensive. A are not their responsibility. I hope the legal pOSition document prepared by the New South Wales will hold on this matter. The opposition would like government indicates how disclosure of contracts of to see a similar strengthening of consumer this nature occurs. Victoria does not have such a protection here rather than this piece of legislation. provision. The disclosures include:

For example, I am sure the community would be '" the full identity of the successful proponents, pleased to see the government legislate to including details of cross ownership of relevant acknowledge the responsibility of the distribution companies; companies so that consumers are not subjected to power surges. At the moment the only redress for the duration of the contract, including details of future consumers is to install, at their own expense, devices transfers of assets of significant value to government or to protect their electrical appliances. If their nominal cost and details of the right to receive the asset appliances are damaged as a result of power surges and the date of the future transfer; they have to seek compensation. Such issues are important from the point of view of the the identification and timing of any assets transferred Regulator-General and the way he carries out his to the contractor by the public sector; important task. all maintenance provisions in the contract; The best example of the government's secrecy is what happened with the sale of United Energy. The the price payable by the public and the basis for future Victorian people could get no information about it changes in the price payable by the public; anywhere. No-one could find out how much money was involved. Where did people eventually obtain provisions for renegotiation; information that was classified as commercial in confidence? On the Internet! the results of cross-benefit analyses; OFFICE OF THE REGULATOR-GENERAL (AMENDMENT) BILL

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the risk sharing in the construction and operational valid point. However, as Mr Theophanous is phases; reaching the end of his contribution, I do not propose to take it any further. significant guarantees or undertakings, including loans, entered into or agreed to be entered into; and Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - Thank you, Mr Acting President. I have made the point in to the extent not covered above, the remaining key relation to New South Wales, and I wish to make a elements of the contractual arrangements; few more points. I urge you, Mr Acting President, to pursue the provision of guidelines through the Yesterday, during debate on the Loy Yang B bill, inquiry being conducted by the subcommittee of the after members of the opposition asked about Public Accounts and Estimates Committee. As you obtaining briefings and detailed information, know, a paper has been distributed by that Mr Hartigan said to us - and it extends to the rest subcommittee designed to elicit responses from the of the Victorian community - 'Trust me'. That public on this issue. From talking to committee would not occur in New South Wales where within members, I understand that more than 90 days of such a contract being entered into the 60 submissions have been made by various agencies Auditor-General would provide a summary of that and the public on this issue. There is obviously quite contract. a lot of interest in the issue.

I know you, Mr Acting President, are very interested Were a set of guidelines to be established, obviously in this issue, as you should be as the Chairman of it would affect the operation of the the Public Accounts and Estimates Committee. It Regulator-General's office and the act because, goes to the heart of making available to the public although the act would not change, the material and to Parliament information which is which is provided and which is said to be understandable and in summary form so an commercial in confidence may not be the same objective assessment can be made while still material. If a set of guidelines is established, the preserving commercial in confidence. Regula tor-General, like everybody else, would be subject to those guidelines and would have to apply Hon. C. A. Strong - On a point of order, that test in identifying whether something is Mr Acting President, Mr Theophanous is now commercial in confidence. debating paragraph (a) of the original amendment which Mr President struck out. He is now dealing Potentially a person who has given out information with the question of the Auditor-General's on a document could spend two years in gaol but if, involvement, commercial-in-confidence guidelines as a consequence of the guidelines, the information and how the Auditor-General should operate. I is no longer classified as commercial in confidence suggest he should be brought back to the bill. the two-year gaol term would not apply. That illustrates that this is an extremely important issue Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - On the point of for the community and for the Public Accounts and order, Mr Acting President, I will make two points: Estimates Committee. It highlights the huge firstly, I understand the minister has provided some ramifications that can result from the decisions of leeway in this debate; and, secondly, I am referring that committee. to what commercial-in-confidence information is provided to the Regulator-General. I have used the Finally, guidelines have been established in other example of United Energy and its contract being states, particularly South Australia and New South available on the Internet and the fact that anybody Wales. In South Australia the process is one where: working in the Office of the Regulator-General making that information available is liable to ... parliamentary select or standing committees will imprisonment for two years. I made the similar have access to an authentic summary of the relevant point that if such guidelines are publicly available in contract; Victoria - that is, summaries of contracts entered into - people in the Regulator-General's office the summary will exclude matters which are should be protected and not be subject to the commercially sensitive; two-year gaol term. the summary will be prepared without delay; The ACTING PRESIDENT (Hon. Bill Forwood) - Order! Mr Strong has raised a very OFFICE OF THE REGULATOR-GENERAL (AMENDMENT) BILL

Thursday, 1 May 1997 COUNCn.. 611

the Auditor-General, an independent statutory officer Hon. T. C. Theophanous - But nothing about responsible to the Parliament, will have access to all the contract. information; and Hon. C. A. STRONG - That is where the Auditor-General will certify the summary once he Mr Theophanous confuses matters. The various is satisfied that relevant details are being disclosed and New South Wales and South Australian examples he that the matters claimed to be commercially sensitive quoted involve BOOT schemes where there is some are so. intention on the part of those governments to take over the assets. In such cases it is important for the That is one of a number of models I am sure the governments and the people to know that the assets Public Accounts and Estimates Committee will in question have been maintained and managed examine. There is an urgent need for that, and it properly because ultimately they will return to the extends to the activity of the Office of the people. The type of information required in such Regulator-General, particularly since significant cases is different. penalties can be imposed on individuals for making available information which might be classified as In this case we are talking about the sale of an asset. commercially sensitive. How the new owner of that asset chooses to manage and operate the asset and what internal Problems will be created if people are to be arrangements the new owner decides to set in place punished for disclosing commercially sensitive is up to the owner because that will have no effect information, because the responsibility of classifying on Victorians or Parliament. what is commercially sensitive is not up to an independent body. It simply occurs, as Mr Strong Hon. T. C. Theophanous - What about the knows, because a distribution company says, I All clauses dealing with taxes? this is commercial in confidence. I am giving it to the Regulator-General on that basis'. The circumstance Hon. C. A. STRONG - I shall finish my is then created where somebody can be found guilty statement: all we should be interested in is ensuring of an offence and can be sent to gaol because a what the new owner produces comes up to distribution company decides a particular item is appropriate standards and that the owner conforms commercial in confidence. As I have said, the with the law. The amendment is clearly a nonsense. opposition is not opposed to the key parts of the Over the years close to $18 million has been raised legislation but it is opposed to that provision. through privatisations. The most remarkable figure, which is shown at page 131 of budget paper no. 3, is The opposition believes there will be no credibility that this state is currently more than $700 million a in this area until a set of guidelines has been year better off as a result of this process. I emphasise established in relation to commercial-in-confidence that this state is more than $700 million better off information and there is a capacity within that for every year as a result of this program, which has not contracts entered into by the government to be finished. Despite that, Mr Theophanous shouts scrutinised in some way with summaries and 'Wolf!' and says it will all be a disaster. adequate information provided to the community and to individuals. I urge the house to support the With regard to the bill, there is an element of reasoned amendment. bipartisanship on both sides of the house as to its importance. I am pleased all honourable members Hon. C. A. STRONG (Higinbotham) - In can see the importance of the Regulator-General. It is speaking against the amendment which in essence also worth highlighting the fact that the opposition says that no further action be taken on this bill until supports two of the three amendments that this bill appropriate information is made available to the proposes to the present act. The differences of Parliament and the people of Victoria on the opinion on this bill are quite small, and that is a privatisation process, I draw to the attention of the healthy thing for the process. house the fact that this information is well and truly available. One has only to look at the current budget I shall spend some time talking about this difference. papers which clearly set out the appropriate The bill extends and clarifies the powers of the information on the electricity privatisation sales and Office of the Regulator-General to obtain show the proceeds of each sale which totals almost information. All honourable members appreciate the $18 billion. importance of the office, which fundamentally set outs to regulate private businesses. Mr Theophanous OFFICE OF THE REGULATOR-GENERAL (AMENDMENT) BILL

612 COUNCIL Thursday, 1 May 1997 did not seem to be saying anything about entities As I have said previously, there is a trade-off in all that are not yet privatised, but if honourable these things, and unfortunately in the political members look at the entities that are privatised, to debate there is a tendency to take one side of that which I shall restrict my comments, the Office of the trade-off and overplay it. There is a trade-off Regulator-General Act allows the Regulator-General between the whistleblower - Mr Theophanous's to go into private businesses and extract all sorts of term - and the security of confidentiality that will information about their commercial and operational allow organisations to provide the information to arrangements, a power that one could say does not the Office of the Regulator-General. There is exist in most other businesses. This special situation definitely a trade-off involved, and it is my in which the Regulator-General is allowed to reach judgment, and the judgment of the Office of the into a private business and get to its inner workings Regulator-General, that the trade-off requires that has been created to protect the citizens of Victoria government to do everything possible to secure the from any featherbedding, overcharging, abuse of confidentiality of the information provided to the monopoly powers or any other possible abuses. office to ensure its effective operation.

If the organisations into which the Another of the many broader issues Regulator-General reaches into to provide this Mr Theophanous said must be considered by the information puts up barriers or smokescreens, Office of the Regulator-General is power surges. The perhaps to pass on information that is not 100 per Office of the Regulator-General and the Australian cent correct or gild the lily and so on, the power and Competition and Consumer Commission have set effectiveness of the Office of the Regulator-General the rules under which private power companies will be significantly diminished. It is essential to the should meet their obligations in respect of power operation of the office that the people who provide it surges, and that is why it is important that with information are confident that that information independent officers such as the Regulator-General will not find its way to competitors. If they even should be allowed to reach in and examine the suspect that the information they give to the Office operations of private companies to establish whether of the Regula tor-General will be leaked or made they should be held responsible for such surges. For available then clearly they will hold back and the that to work effectively the private companies must effectiveness of the office will be diminished. be confident that the information they provide will go nowhere else. Hon. T. C. Theophanous - It is a bit like the Auditor-General asking for the Intergraph material, I am pleased that there is agreement on two of the I suppose. clauses in the bill. In respect of a third there is disagreement on an element of trade-off. I believe, as Hon. C. A. STRONG - In the real world clearly does the Office of the Regulator-General, that corporations are mindful of commercially sensitive the trade-off comes down in favour of their being a information and must make sure that that requirement for greater security and confidentiality information will not go past the Office of the of information. Regulator-General. I am surprised that Mr Theophanous and the Labor Party would want In conclusion, I express my support for the Office of to do anything to diminish the effectiveness and the the Regulator-General and for the important things power of the Office of the Regulator-General it has done in the three or four years it has been in because it is the institution that has been set up to existence. It has put in place regulations and a protect the consumers that Mr Theophanous is regime of customer contracts which are forever carping about and saying are most groundbreaking in every way and which afford the important to him. consumers of utility services in Victoria greater protection and understanding of their rights and the The government set up the office and wants to give procedures under which the utilities work than are it the maximum power possible to protect available in any other state. consumers. If there is any fear that information provided to the Office of the Regulator-General by It is an outstanding office, and the government organisations could be released by whistleblowers, believes it should do everything it can to give the leaked, published in newspapers or made available office the power it needs as the key institution that to competitors in any way there would be great protects the utility customers in this state, rather reticence by those organisations to providing than allowing it to disclose information on internal information. contracts that relate only to the internal operations of OFFICE OF THE REGULATOR-GENERAL (AMENDMENT) BILL

Thursday, 1 May 1997 COUNCIL 613 private companies. For the reasons I have given, I industry-specific legislation that confers on the urge honourable members to reject the amendment Regulator-General the power to regulate an industry. and support the bill. Much has been said about the need to accommodate Hon. R. H. BOWDEN (South Eastern) - I a whistleblowing situation, where information is support the bill and reject the reasoned amendment. required about the appropriateness of actions by The Office of the Regulator-General was instituted people in the economic system, by the three years ago to fulfil the important community Regulator-General's office or by the consultants who role of maintaining confidence in the economic are providing information. In addition to the state performance of large businesses that participate in and commonwealth laws that apply at all times, the the privatisation process and to ensure that Office of the Regulator-General Act will further community confidence is demonstrated and assure the citizens of Victoria that any concerns maintained following the large-scale changes that about illegality can properly be brought to the have been necessary with the economic reform attention of the appropriate authorities. It is program, for instance, in the electricity industry. important, especially in a sensitive operation such as the Office of the Regulator-General, that the public The Office of the Regulator-General has worked well should eventually find out the things it should and has been accepted by the community. It has an under the appropriate laws of the state. The excellent reputation for maintaining confidence. The legislation will further help that important office bill improves in a minor way a number of aspects of provide service to Victorians. the operation of the office. Because of the sensitive nature of large-scale economic changes both within The bill makes it clear that the Regulator-General the industry and during the changeover, the Office has a valuable role to play and that the office needs of the Regulator-General has had access to to be of high quality. Safeguards are needed so that appropriate information to enable it to carry out its private investors who have already made large important community function in an objective and investments in industry in Victoria and who will well-informed way. make further investments in the future can have the same confidence in the Office of the Clause 3 clarifies that the Office of the Regulator-General as have the people of Victoria. It Regulator-General can obtain information or is with pleasure I support the bill and reject the documentation from people who are not holders of amendment proposed by the opposition. licences issued by the office, so ensuring that the office can carry out its important task. That clause House divided on omission (members in favour was given a lot of consideration because it is vote no): important in a Society such as ours that there are checks and balances and that consideration is given Ayes, 29 to requests for information and to the confidentiality Asher, Ms Forwood,Mr of the information provided. Ashman,Mr Furietti, Mr (Teller) Atkinson, Mr Hali,Mr The Office of the Regulator-General has given an Baxter, Mr Haliam,Mr incredible performance. The effect of clause 3 will be Best, Mr Knowies,Mr to further assist the office to gather the relevant data Birrell, Mr Lucas,Mr it needs to meet the challenges and opportunities Bishop,Mr Luckins, Mrs that will arise as we approach 2000. Boardman, Mr Powell, Mrs (Teller) Bowden,Mr Ross, Or Clause 4 puts in place a prohibition of the disclosure Brideson, Mr Smith,Mr of information that is provided to the Cover, Mr Smith, Ms Regulator-General by a person performing duties Craige, Mr Stoney, Mr connected with the act, such as a consultant or an Davis, Mr D. McL. Strong, Mr outside accounting or legal firm. That is important Davis, Mr P. R Wilding, Mrs because of the commercial sensitivity and the de Fegeiy, Mr competitive nature of privatisation, and the advice given to the Regulator-General is extremely important not only for private investors but for the people of Victoria. The clause makes clear that the prohibition on disclosure extends to BUDGET PAPERS, 1997-98

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Noes, 8 Sheehan, the honourable member for N orthcote in Hogg,Mrs Power,Mr the other place, who said in 1992: McLean,Mrs Pulien, Mr Nardella,Mr Theophanous, Mr The state has no financial problems. Our revenue is just Nguyen, Mr (Teller) Walpole, Mr (Teller) a bit down.

Pairs The state Treasury had to cope with Labor Hartigan, Mr Gould, Miss government policies that were sending Victoria Katsambanis, Mr Eren, Mr down the drain. In 1992 Treasurer Sheehan said:

Amendment negatived. We are going to take $600 million from TAC.

Motion agreed to. He did not say one word about the fact that the state government was at the time accumulating a debt of Read second time. $30 billion. Approximately 16 per cent of the total outlays in the last Labor government budget were Remaining stages needed to pay the interest on the debt. I have some definitions of Labor Party mismanagement. A Passed remaining stages. socialist is a person who has no concept of financial responsibility. A socialist government is a Sitting suspended 12.58 p.m. until 2.03 p.m. government that spends all its available funds, borrows until it can borrow no more and then hopes BUDGET PAPERS, 1997-98 to lose the next election so someone else can sort out the mess. A socialist minister is someone who For Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Minister for Finance), spends all the department's available funds as soon Hon. R. 1. Knowles (Minister for Health) - I move: as possible in the hope that another department will pay the salaries of his staff for the rest of the year. A That the Council take note of the budget papers, socialist Treasurer is someone who assures the 1997-98. public that state finances are under control while simultaneously signing cheques with both hands Hon. N. B. LUCAS (Eumemmerring) - I have and knowing there are insufficient funds to cover great pleasure in supporting the motion. The central the government's commitments. theme of my contribution is the poor record of financial management of the socialist Labor I have a new definition of a socialist shadow government compared with the excellent record of Treasurer. He does not believe that any of the the Kennett government, which has put Victoria in previous problems ever occurred. He believes an excellent position to further improve on the mistakenly that a Labor socialist government could positive turnaround in the state's finances. maintain the finances of the state more efficiently than a coalition government. He begrudgingly In setting the scene I remind the house where acknowledges to himself that the Kennett Victoria has come from. The community should government has brought Victoria back from never forget the legacy left by the former financial ruin; reduced the state's debt by half in just Cain-Kirner governments. Some of those Guilty four years; brought its current account into balance; Party members are still in our midst and are the ones increased capital works; encouraged and achieved to whom the public purse would be handed if ever private funding of infrastructure; and addressed the there were a change of government. Workcover black hole.

I compare the record of the disgraced former Labor I refer honourable members to the government's government with the successes of the Kennett record, which can be compared with the litany of government. Regrettably, people are starting to disasters wrought on the community by the former forget what happened under the former Labor Labor government. An article in the Age of 14 April government. They should continually be reminded by Paul Chamberlain, the economics correspondent, that the rabble who made up the Labor Party almost states: brought this state to its knees. I shall remind the house of Labor's financial management record. In Victoria now has the nation's best economic record ... doing so I refer to a statement by former Treasurer BUDGET PAPERS, 1997-98

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... Victoria did well in moving from last four years ago is getting out of the way of small business. The to third in 1995-96, according to a Victorian Employers government is saying, 'You have a go at running Chamber of Commerce and Industry survey. your business. We are getting out of your way'. That has the effect of creating jobs and of encouraging That independent source is saying that Victoria's business. The government's policies have certainly economy is going well. An article on page 5 of the worked in that area. Business Forum of 11 April states: The multicultural small business initiative in the February represents the third consecutive month in Small Business May program encourages people which Victorian retail trade turnover has trended from multicultural backgrounds who are involved in upwards. business in Victoria. About 90 000 small business owners or operators who were born overseas are This highlights an increasingly positive sign in now conducting business in this state - 26 per cent consumer confidence in the Victorian economy, in part of all small business owners and operators. A recent attributable to shop trading hours deregulation. survey of business skills among migrants reveals that 56 per cent of those businesses employ an Recent Australian Bureau of Statistics figures average of five staff; 53 per cent have export released by the Minister for Industry, Science and earnings; and 36 per cent have an annual turnover of Technology indicate that over the past 12 months at least $1 million. A range of initiatives under the Victoria has had the highest jobs growth in heading of multiculturalism will certainly assist Australia. The minister has said employment had those people. increased by 26 700 between March 1996 and March 1997 while Victoria's trend unemployment The micro business initiative encourages small rate remained steady at 9 per cent in March. Victoria businesses with fewer than five employees to grow. is leading the nation in employment growth. New In 1994-95 it was estimated that 666 000 micro South Wales, which has a larger population, businesses operate in Australia. Some 12 per cent of achieved employment growth of 20 100 over the households now operate home-based businesses, same period. One need look only at the various and the government has certainly set out to government initiatives to understand why encourage those people. employment has increased. Another growth area is women in small business, A couple of weeks ago a small business summit and the coalition government certainly supports attended by small business operators from around them. The number of women working in their own the state provided them with the opportunity of businesses has risen by almost 40 per cent in the past consulting with state government officers and heads decade. Worldwide trends confirm that women are of peak business organisations. They heard from a the business opportunists of the 1990s, and the range of experts and were able to contribute to draft coalition is very pleased to support them. plan documents that will be discussed at the national small business summit. Multimedia in small business is another initiative of the Small Business May program. Computer The small business area has come up with a number industry analysts estimate that less than 20 per cent of successful initiatives. As today is 1 May it is of Australian small businesses use networking appropriate that I refer the house to the excellent technology. Small businesses using the Internet have Small Business May program established by the grown from 5 per cent to 9 per cent over the past Minister for Small Business and Small Business 12 months, and 74 per cent of small businesses now Victoria, which has a number of initiatives to have desktop computers. Victoria has appointed the support business. The Red Tape Hotline will be in world's first Minister for Multimedia, the operation for a couple of days this month to give Honourable Alan Stockdale, to encourage people to small business the opportunity of providing get involved in the multimedia area. This program suggestions and comments on how to improve any provides small businesses with a single point of situation that is restricting it. Over the past four access by using Internet and electronic text years there has been a 60 per cent reduction in the communications to encourage them to use electronic business regulations and barriers Labor put into multimedia to help their businesses grow. place during its term in office. There has been a 40 per cent reduction in the number of regulations I also draw to the attention of the house a range of being introduced by the department. So government programs under the auspices of the Department of BUDGET PAPERS, 1997-98

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State Development that have the effect of improving The Street Life program encourages vitality in the state's economy. The first is the Strategic commercial centres. Commercial activity is Industry Research Foundation program, which enormously important to this state. The program initiates and manages industry-led collaborative should be commended for its encouragement of the research and innovation programs. A number of vitality of commercial centres. Finally, we have the interesting programs have been set up under SIRF. Investment Ready program, which also comes under One is the development of ceramic or solid oxide the Industry, Science and Technology portfolio and fuel cells. Solid oxide fuel cells represent the most which looks at the possibility of growing businesses efficient way known of converting fossil fuels to that have the potential for growth and the potential electricity and heat while producing low levels of to get into the export area. Businesses need capital pollutants. The SIRF program has encouraged this input to grow. I also commend that program. development, which will certainly provide not only a growth industry for Victoria but also tremendous This is a good news budget. Good news budgets are potential for export. very popular with the coalition and the whole Victorian community. This budget reflects the Another of the diverse range of initiatives is a new success of the government's financial policies. It variety of malting barley. Over the past five years confirms that the hard decisions that had to be made $9.4 million has been spent on research involving to reconstruct this state's finances have borne fruit. two new breeds of barley that have superior yield Victoria is no longer described as a rust bucket; it is and malting characteristics. That offers tremendous no longer the butt of jokes. In fact, Victoria is now potential there for the improvement of business in looked up to right around Australia as being a place this country and also for export. in which to invest. Victoria is on the move. It is being successful and Victorians know what a rabble the Another initiative that has the effect of growing opposition in this house and in another place is. business, of creating jobs and of improving the economic development of the state is the Industrial I refer to a number of highlights in the budget Supplies Office. ISO tries to put businesses in touch documents. In the area of taxation reform, the with manufacturers and other industries in Victoria budget allows for a return of some $211 million to that have the ability to provide products and lessen the community through reduced taxes. One of the the need for imports. SIO works out where main areas where that is being achieved is payroll industries can provide product of an equal standard tax, which has reduced from 7 per cent to 6.25 per and appropriate price. One of the companies cent. involved, Baron Rubber Pty Ltd of Coburg, was able to produce a high quality, reasonable cost item for Hon. T. C. Theophanous interjected. the organisation Powerlance. Previously Powerlance had bought the product from overseas, so an import Hon. N. B. LUCAS - I haven't got time for that. has been replaced by a locally produced product. The reduction in payroll tax amounts to some ISO should be congratulated on the work it has done $103 million. Petroleum franchise fees will be in this area. reduced by more than $100 million. I have heard people ask whether the community will actually get The Partnerships for Growth program is geared to that back. The answer is that the government is assist rural communities by working with them to encouraging two mechanisms to be put in place to identify and market new industries to strengthen ensure the return goes to the community as what they are doing in the bush. The programs petroleum prices are reduced. The first is the under this heading include Rural Victoria 2001 and Australian Competition and Consumer Commission Investing in Country Victoria, which have had some and the other is Victoria's Office of Fair Trading, and great successes. Some $50 million has been spent Business Affairs, which will be able to monitor during the term of this government to assist rural prices. I trust that will occur and that the full economies. That has attracted new investment and benefits of the reductions will be achieved for those strengthened businesses already established in rural who need encouragement, particularly those in rural communities, creating new infrastructure for those areas. In fact, I understand that in the order of communities. Business has been helped by the $1600 million is being returned to our communities reduction of regulations that affect people adversely each year now as a result of state government in the bush. initiatives in reducing taxes and costs.

Hon. T. C. Theophanous - That's a lie. QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

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Hon. N. B. LUCAS - You add it up. The strong priority that Minister Craige has already reduction in Workcover premiums amounts to supported by seeking funds from the federal $580 million and the reduction in taxes across the government. board, including local government taxes of $263 million. Reductions have occurred in the areas There is a whole lot of good news about the budget of gas, water and electricity charges. There are cuts and about what will occur in the next few years. right across the board for which the customers, the Labor could not have done that. The coalition has people out there in the community, are paying credit been able to do it. If the rabble of an opposition had to the coalition government. I am so pleased the won or continued in government it would have government has been able to turn the state around continued to bankrupt the state. I commend from being a complete shambles to one that now has Treasurer Stockdale on this budget and on making balanced books - and the government is well available the opportunities for Victoria in the appreciated for that. coming year. Importantly, I underline the feelings of certainty and satisfaction that all Victorians have in There has been a reduction in debt from $32 billion knowing that the state's finances are in good hands. to some $14 billion. There are just so many successes I support the motion. in this budget that one could go on for a long time. There has been an extraordinary turnaround in our Debate interrupted pursuant to sessional orders. fortunes. Victoria has now moved to within one notch of an AAA credit rating. What a great success!

A key strategy the government wishes to put in QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE place is a sustained budget balance. At page 39 Budget Paper No. 2 mentions how easy it is to have a surplus that is a little bit higher because of Workcover Update energy-related revenues, one-off transactions or debt restructuring, but the important figure we must look Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS (Jika Jika) - I refer at is the one relating to the sustainable position. This the Minister for Finance, in his capacity as the budget is looking at a sustainable surplus of around minister responsible for Workcover, to earlier $200 million, and that is achievable for the next few questions I raised with him about the pulping of years. That is a wonderful success. 200 000 copies of Workcover Update. Is the minister aware that a television advertisement, which also I have the great pleasure of representing six councils. dealt with the new employer notification Certainly the Greater Dandenong council has a great regulations, has also been scrapped? Will he indicate role to play in providing employment for the rapidly who authorised the scrapping of Workcover Update growing south-eastern growth corridor. The City of and the television commercial, for what reason, and Casey is the second largest municipality in Victoria the cost of those actions? and it would certainly contain some 300 000 people in the next decade and a half. Those areas have Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Minister for Finance) - I certainly been well looked after in this budget. For am not sure about the background to the television instance, $12 million will be spent on refurbishing commercial; I do not know about that. But given that the Dandenong hospital. Money is also being spent Mr Theophanous raised the issue with me a couple on schools throughout my electorate, such as of days ago, I took time out to catch up with the Southern Cross, Mossgiel Park, Albany Rise, Chalcot background to the story. It is true that something Lodge and Fountain Gate. No doubt announcements like 200 000 individual information sheets were not will be made in due course about road funding that circulated after they had been prepared in will provide further support for the area. I look anticipation of circulation to individual employers. forward to that occurring. By way of background I remind the house that I have already reported that there has been a change There are other challenges in the future, including in regulations requiring that employers notify the having the Berwick hospital built before this Victorian Workcover Authority where a workplace government's term is finished and the Berwick incident occurs which results in either a death or railway station upgrade. That has been supported by serious injury or constitutes a dangerous occurrence Mrs Marg Phillips and Cr Norma McCausland, and then creates immediate serious risk to safety. representing the Edrington ward. Another challenge is the completion of the Hallam bypass, which is a I am advised by the authorities that in anticipation of the passage of that regulation and to ensure that QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

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Victorian employers were aware of the changes an average waiting time, differences in waiting time update was prepared for circulation. However, between specialties and hospitals, maximum waiting senior management of the authority deemed it more times and the types of procedures with the longest appropriate to get that information out by way of waiting times. All of that information is important. It direct publicity. will help this government to better utilise the additional resources that are provided. Rather than send individual notices to each of the employers a decision was taken to conduct a The department has provided $5 million this year to substantial advertising campaign. Major enable the infrastructure to be put in place in the advertisements appeared in the major daily hospitals to enable the program to commence on newspapers, including the Age of 14 April, which I 1 July. As announced in the budget, the government have with me, together with a great deal of has provided an additional $10 million for waiting background information. The advertisement list incentives and a further $10 million for explained that this was a very important change in emergency departments to be used for treatment of a the laws of the land and invited employers to take significant number of Victorians. This is an up the offer of the circulation of an occupational important initiative. health and safety guide, which I also happen to have with me. An Opposition Member - Will the booking list come under this program? I make the point again that the change in the rules is very substantial and complex and the decision was Hon. R. I. KNOWLES - That is what it is about. simply taken that it was more appropriate for the The department publishes these figures on a brochures to be made available for circulation rather quarterly basis so the information is available to than trying to get the entire story across on a single enable better planning to occur. It also helps to direct page. resources in a way that optimises access to the hospital system. I have no doubt this system will Hon. T. C. Theophanous interjected. provide an additional and important tool for management in this critically important area. Hon. R. M. HALLAM - The bit that intrigues me is the inference that the honourable member Intergraph: ambulance contract insists on putting on this that it is somehow a nefarious occurrence. All the authority was trying to Hon. M. M. GOULD (Doutta Galla) - I refer the do was to ensure that employers knew about the Minister for Health to the payment by Intergraph of new rules and that the information was made $729975 to GT Performance Marketing, a company available to them in the most appropriate way. set up by Mr Grant Griffiths and Mr Shane Tyrrell while Mr Griffiths was working for the ambulance Hospitals: elective surgery service, and the various explanations for this payment by Intergraph, including that it was a Hon. J. W. G. ROSS (Higinbotham) - Will the spotter's fee for getting Intergraph the contract, a Minister for Health advise the house of initiatives to performance bonus for Mr Griffiths or a sales improve elective surgery in Victoria's public commission earned by Mr Tyrrell, and I ask: is it not hospitals? a fact that the only reason the government has failed to call a royal commission into the Intergraph Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Minister for Health)­ scandal is that it does not want secret payments such The government has put a lot of effort into ensuring as the one I have outlined to be publicly investigated timely access to the public hospital system by those with witnesses required to testify under oath? Victorians who need and seek it, the number of which has increased substantially and rapidly. The Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Minister for Health)­ government and the department in conjunction with The answer to the latter part of the question is no. In the advisory committee on elective surgery has fact, the government has initiated inquiries. As to developed an Elective Surgery Information System, the arrangements, they are the responsibility of my known as ESIS, to be progressively introduced from colleague the Minister for Police and Emergency 1 July. Through a process of reporting to be put in Services in another place. place it will provide hospitals, the department and the community, a lot more information about the characteristics of waiting lists of patients, including QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

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Manufacturing industry: Japanese Japan and it is a giant credit to Victoria's investment attractiveness as an investment destination.

Hon. N. B. LUCAS (Eumemrnerring) - Will the Shimadzu's new plant will supply the global market Minister for Industry, Science and Technology place with medical diagnostic X-ray systems, inform the house of Victoria's latest success in automatic chemistry analysers and chromatograph attracting Japanese manufacturing investment to this mass spectrometers. Shimadzu's investment is also state? delivering real jobs for Victorians and, in particular, for Dandenong. Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (Minister for Industry, Science and Technology) - I am delighted to inform By the end of the year 160 Victorians will be the house of the expansion plans and the employed in the plant, which is great news for development of those plans in Melbourne by the Dandenong and a solid reflection of the effort put in Shimadzu Corporation, which opened its second by the Kennett government to attract industry and manufacturing plant yesterday in Mr Lucas's create jobs. electorate. The Premier officially opened that facility in the presence of the Japanese ambassador, and I Shimadzu's strategy of building its future in Victoria was also pleased to attend. provides a good sign for other overseas companies. We look forward to working with them and getting For those honourable members who do not know, similar positive results. Shimadzu is one of the world's leading manufacturers of medical and analytical instruments Youth unemployment and currently has an annual global turnover in excess of $1 billion. This government is extremely Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS (Jika Jika) - My pleased that when that group had to make a decision question is to the Minister for Industry, Science and about where it was to establish its offshore advanced Technology, and I look forward to an equally manufacturing capacity it chose Melbourne, in comprehensive response. particular, Dandenong. As a result of the overtures from the Kennett government Shimadzu established Honourable members interjecting. its first plant two years ago and in a solid show of confidence it has now built and opened its second Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS - He hasn't got too plant. good a track record. The statistical summary issued today by the parliamentary library documents that The decision of Shimadzu Australia to locate its 84 400 young Victorians are unemployed. Will the manufacturing operations in Victoria was predicated minister advise of specific government programs on our natural strength and advantages in that will result in a significant reduction in world-class infrastructure, a highly skilled work unemployment rates for young Victorians? Will the force, our critical mass of scientific know-how and minister indicate what the unemployment rates for expertise and our undisputed reputation as a centre young Victorians will be as a consequence of the of excellence in research and development. implementation of those government programs?

Shimadzu Australia's competitive edge and export Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (Minister for Industry, focus is winning new markets for the company in Science and Technology) - I thank Europe, Asia and the United States for its high-tech Mr Theophanous for his question. Again he has products. I am very pleased that more than 90 per caught me out, so I will see how long I can speak - cent of Shimadzu Australia's production is being whatever length of answer he likes. I usually have to exported to Australia's major trading partners. It is repeat myself because he doesn't like the answer. exactly the type of outcome Australia wants. In setting the context for the answer to that question, Shimadzu Australia's investment decision is an it is worth while reflecting on the absolute treachery important anchor for Australia's domestic, scientific of the Labor government in dealing with youth and manufacturing industries and enhances unemployment during its term of office. That set the Melbourne's position as a recognised centre for base for what we had to solve. scientific and medical research and manufacturing in the Asia Pacific region. The Dandenong facility is At the end of 1992 - after the glory years of the Shimadzu's largest manufacturing facility outside Kimer government when we were led by people QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

620 COUNCIL Thursday, 1 May 1997 with such authority as Mr Theophanous - the level you do not like it. Unfortunately, you have to cop it. of unemployment for 20 to 24-year-olds was 18.1 per You are worried because your only technique, cent. That was the unemployment your Labor presumably born out of your branch-stacking ability, leaders left us with, Mr Theophanous - the great isto-- outcome! What was the level of unemployment in that category at the end of December 1996? Hon. T. C. Theophanous - Shut your stupid face.

Hon. T. C. Theophanous intezjected. Honourable members interjecting.

Hon. M. A. BIRRELL - It was 12.4 per cent. Hon. M. A. BIRRELL - Mr Theophanous is a Frankly, any level of unemployment among young lasting public legacy as the person who stacked most people is of concern, but let us have it squarely on branches-- the record: the outcome we have obtained is a solid reflection of how we have ensured that Hon. T. C. Theophanous - On a point of order, unemployment falls, particularly by comparison Mr President, either this house is going to operate in with the Kirner years. Mr Theophanous intezjects, as a way that allows members to ask questions and he has done and as the honourable member for expect answers to them or you, Sir, will continue to Williamstown and the Leader of the Opposition in say it does not matter what the answer is or whether the other place have done - at least until the Leader it has any relevance whatsoever to the question, and of the Opposition in the other house had to we will have a farce every time. apologise for misleading the house. They said unemployment was 50 per cent in some areas, but if Honourable members interjecting. you compile the statistics and deem people who want to have or have part-time jobs as being Hon. T. C. Theophanous - The question I asked unemployed, the unemployment figure will be has absolutely nothing to do with branch stacking. It higher. That is what the Leader of the Opposition in is to do with 84 000 unemployed young people. The the other place did. minister should answer it.

If anyone wants to look at how credible those figures The PRESIDENT - Order! Any ruling I give are, look at the personal apology the Leader of the about what should constitute an answer is according Opposition in the other place made when he was to rulings given by my predecessors, both Labor and caught short on those dodgy statistics. As a result he Liberal. When he was a minister, Mr Theophanous had to correct them in that house. We stand by our abided by the same set of rules. achievements in youth employment. Hon. T. C. Theophanous - We had a different Hon. T. C. Theophanous - On a point of order, President then. Mr President, the question I asked of the minister was about what specific government programs will The PRESIDENT - You had a different be implemented by the government that will result President, but you got the same answer. in a significant reduction in unemployment rates. It was a specific question. Now we have had 3 minutes Hon. T. C. Theophanous - In your opinion. of diatribe about what the unemployment rates were. Hon. M. A. BIRRELL - I regret that Honourable members interjecting. Mr Theophanous is concerned about my reference to branch stacking, but he did not deny it. The PRESIDENT - Order! There is no point of order. If Mr Theophanous wants to be remembered for his ministerial achievements we should bear in mind Hon. T. C. Theophanous - Tell us about the that he is the man who brought in fees for credit programs. cards - that is your policy achievement, Mr Theophanous! Hon. M. A. BIRRELL - I deeply regret that you interrupted the flow of my answer, Hon. T. C. Theophanous - What are you talking Mr Theophanous. I will have to start again. You about? started your question by asking for a long answer, but as soon as you get one you interrupt because QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

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Hon. M. A. BIRRELL - It is true. You led the business summit. One of the key messages coming charge. That is why Brian Mier and you had a from small business is the desire for information violent altercation in this chamber, because you from government. More than 60 seminars will be brought in fees for credit cards. conducted throughout Victoria, a third of which will be in country Victoria. They will provide a range of Hon. T. C. Theophanous - When are you going information for small business owners. to answer the question? There will be four theme weeks in Small Business Hon. M. A. BIRRELL - I am happy to. If you May. There will be a Multicultural Small Business want us to compare employment outcomes, we are Week, a particularly interesting part of which will be happy to do so. How did we get that outcome? one of the first public appearances of His Excellency, Because the Kennett government has created a Sir James Gobbo. He will speak next Wednesday at a business environment matched by a string of dinner on export strength through multicu1turalism. government programs that has seen particularly young people being employed in a pro-active way There will also be a Micro-business Week, which and getting the jobs they are seeking - full-time or will provide a range of assistance and advice for part-time - or being in tertiary education. people who are starting very small businesses. We will also have a Women in Small Business week and The community business employment program is a Multimedia in Small Business Week. The aim of one example. If Mr Theophanous is not aware of it, I that week will be to demystify a lot of the suggest he read any of the dozens of documents that information technology available to small business. have been made available over the past five years Today we launched a red-tape hotline, which will and perhaps brief himself on his portfolio before he operate for the next two days from 8.30 a.m. to asks a question. He would then know that the 8.00 p.m. The number is 1800 550 097. The objective outcome is that we have ensured increased of the hotline is to enable small business owners to employment among young people, using not dodgy phone in and alert the government to any figures but figures put out by the ABS. We are impediments in the way of their businesses. We will happy to have them on the record, although I know see what we can do about overcoming them. from his constant interruptions that Mr Theophanous is not happy with the ABS results. I encourage all members of Parliament to get involved in Small Business May. It is a good month Small Business May for celebrating and informing small business which is, after all, the most important component of the Hon. W. I. SMITH (Silvan) - Will the Minister Victorian economy. for Small Business advise the house of the launch today of Small Business May? Yarra Ranges: roadworks

Hon. LOUISE ASHER (Minister for Small Hon. D. T. WALPOLE (Melbourne) - Will the Business) - I thank Ms Smith for her ongoing Minister for Roads and Ports advise the house of the interest in this area. Earlier this morning the Premier details of new roadworks projects which will be launched Small Business May, which is designed to undertaken in the Yarra Ranges municipality be a month of celebrations for small businesses following the recently announced state budget? around Victoria. The first theme of the month is to recognise the achievements of small business, and Hon. G. R. CRAIGE (Minister for Roads and that is being done by way of a series of awards. Ports) - I appreciate Mr Walpole's genuine concern for my electorate and for the electorate of Mrs Varty We have decided to single out a special month to and Ms Smith. I doubt whether this affects recognise the achievements of small business in Mr Walpole's electorate. However, let me inform the Victoria; they are leading the way in employment house of the government's recent announcement creation. On the last available figures, small business involving the allocation of significant road funding increased employment in the state by 7.7 per cent, for Victoria. which is well in excess of the national average. The Kennett government has allocated the sum of The second component of Small Business May, in $41 million - a record amount in the history of the my opinion a particularly Significant component, is state - for the outer metropolitan road network. It the issue of information. I recently held a small is aimed at overcoming the legacy left after 10 years QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

622 COUNCIL Thursday, 1 May 1997 of absolute neglect. On many occasions I have our statewide regional road network over the next reminded the Labor Party of its abysmal and decade. It will meet the needs of the community and pathetic contribution to the state's road support our tourism, farming and rural industries. infrastructure. The actions and priorities have been developed in consultation with municipalities, industry groups This year the state is also contributing extra money and road user groups and will clearly give Victoria a to rural roads. Some $196 million is being allocated quality rural road network. from Better Roads Victoria, $95 million of which is for rural roads, a record 48 per cent of the Better Employment: north-eastern suburbs Roads levy. That funding will be allocated to 214 different road projects, and I look forward to Hon. PAT POWER (Jika Jika) - I direct my announcing the projects to the local members question to the Minister for Industry, Science and concerned. Technology and in doing so make further reference to the statistical summary provided by the Linking Victoria strategy parliamentary library. The summary indicates that there are 3500 Victorians unemployed in the Hon. B. W. BISHOP (North Western) - Will the north-eastern region, which covers my province of Minister for Roads and Ports inform the house of the Jika Jika. recent launch of the Linking Victoria strategy. Hon. M. A. Birrell- The north-eastern Hon. G. R. CRAIGE (Minister for Roads and metropolitan area? Ports) - The Victorian rural road network will be transformed over the next decade. Recently, I Hon. PAT POWER - Correct - Diamond launched the Linking Victoria strategy, which is a Valley, Eltham, Heidelberg, Northcote, Preston and comprehensive plan to construct new roads, Whittlesea. I ask the minister to advise of any improve road safety and introduce a better road specific government programs to deal with signing system for our highways, tourist roads and unemployment in the region and to say what the regional roads. The strategy covers some level of unemployment might be following the 19 000 kilometres of road network in Victoria. It will implementation of those programs. clearly boost rural development and also make driving easier and safer for local residents, tourists Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (Minister for Industry, and the drivers of commerdal and freight vehicles. Science and Technology) - I thank the honourable member for his question, particularly the reasonable Over the next four years, new route signing will be tone in which he has put it. The answer will be along introduced across country Victoria to help motorists similar lines, but it is worth trying it that way! acquaint themselves with road conditions. A statewide route numbering system will be I have the break-up of the country Victorian regions, introduced with M, A, B and C routes, which will which is why I asked Mr Power which part of the reflect the quality of our roads to make travel easier north-east he was talking about. I am more than and safer. This will particularly benefit tourists or happy to get the information on the employment visitors in unfamiliar areas and will help then plan trends in the metropolitan areas. I know that for the and prepare their trips with greater confidence. year ending December 1996, the last full-year figures we have, unemployment in the metropolitan areas The signing will be integrated with Victoria's was 9 per cent. That can be compared with regional tourism districts and will help promote unemployment of 11 per cent for the year ending attractions in the area. Road freight COIUlectiOns with December 1992. I will be more than happy to get the our ports at both Geelong and Portland will be information on unemployment levels in the improved throughout the state. We will also be north-east metropolitan area and give it to the improving substandard bridges, upgrade them to honourable member, along with the number of CBE cope with B-double truck access. programs being provided discretely within the region. A further move in Linking Victoria will involve our working with industry and rail authorities to Crown Casino: opening improve roads and bridges in servicing our intermodal transport hubs. The Linking Victoria Hon. B. N. ATKINSON (Koonung) - I strategy spells out a dear and achievable plan for understand the Victorian Casino and Gaming BUDGET PAPERS, 1997-98

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Authority has made an important decision about the I had the good fortune to travel to Las Vegas last opening arrangements of the new Crown Casino year and saw the latest surveillance systems in entertainment complex next week. Will the Minister operation at both the World Gaming Congress and for Gaming inform the house of the details of that Expo. I was astounded at the extraordinary level of decision and relevant aspects of the opening of the technical sophistication that is now available. It is on complex? that basis that I can say to the chamber that we in Victoria can be confident that the new casino at Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Minister for Gaming) - Southbank will be one of the most secure in world. The Victorian Casino and Gaming Authority has Crown's own system is at the cutting edge of approved two days of soft opening at the Southbank international developments, and the authority has in casino on Monday and Tuesday next - 5 and place its own equipment and procedures to ensure 6 May - prior to the official opening on 8 May. The that the operations are absolutely squeaky clean. I rules that will apply include that entry to the soft commend the authority - in particular chairman openings will be by invitation only; there will be John Richards and the director of casino surveillance a S5 maximum bet limit on all the table games. The Ian Manning - for their determination to ensure government will continue to collect gaming taxes that in terms of fundamental surveillance, security and the community benefit level as usual. However, and probity the casino authority of this state is at the Crown has Wldertaken to donate its gaming profits leading edge of the world-best practice. I, like other earned over those two days to charity. members, look forward to the opening of this brand new facility on Southbank - it is world class. Crown will be required to continue to pay the Melburnians and Victorians will grow to become liquidated damages of $50 000 a day for late very proud of it because it will represent a completion of the casino complex until the official world-best practice facility. opening next Thursday. That represents damages to this stage amounting to something like $13.2 million. BUDGET PAPERS, 1997-98 The soft openings are designed to give the casino operator and the authority the opportunity to test Debate resumed. casino operations in an operational environment. The arrangement will provide some real benefits to Hon. W. I. SMITH (Silvan) -It is with pride as a Crown and the authority. For example, the member of the Kennett government that I support state-of-the-art security and surveillance monitoring this budget. It is a budget of measured, sensible systems can be tested and adjusted if necessary over fiscal management and moves Victoria towards an those two days. The operator and the authority will AAA rating and towards restoring business growth, get to test and assess the crowd-control and security employment and competence in Victoria. The legacy arrangements. All of the plant and equipment can be of the 1980s under a Labor government saw tested in a practical environment, and the new Victoria's credit rating with Moody's Investors gaming staff can also familiarise themselves with Service downgraded four notches from AAA to Al that environment. It is important that the casino between 1990 and 1992. operational procedures be tested and finetuned across the board. Public sector net debt reached more than 30 per cent of gross state product. Economic output declined As honourable members would imagine, this is an more than 5 per cent between 1990 and 1992. important time for the staff of the authority - Unemployment was higher than 12 per cent during perhaps the most crucial since the original licence 1992. New South Wales overtook Victoria in private was awarded in August 1993. The size of the sector expenditure on research and development. Wldertaking is extraordinary. The authority has been Public sector net debt had grown from $11.3 billion required to approve all table games and has had the in 1982 to $30.6 billion in 1992 -10 years - and rules published in its Special Gazettal. It has been Victoria's liabilities for superannuation and workers required to approve something in excess of 2100 compensation had ballooned from $4.5 billion to gaming machines, Keno, Sportsbetting and other more than $23 billion. electronic equipment; authorise the Vicpol casino crime unit to access the back-of-house areas; finalise The Kennett government inherited a financial the casino and liquor-licensing boundaries, and disaster. The Cain-Kirner governments borrowed issue something in excess of 2000 additional money just to pay interest and other day-ta-day special-employee licences. operating costs. Labor did not payoff debt - it just incurred it. We all know the serious financial BUDGET PAPERS, 1997-98

624 COUNCIL Thursday, 1 May 1997 mismanagement that led to the collapse of the State Kennett government. The Kennett team came into Bank, the Pyramid scandal, the VEDC scandal and government with a commitment to manage and many more. Labor made promises it could never govern responsibly for all Victorians and with strong deliver. One example was the promise to develop leadership, a vision and well-defined and analysed Bayside. It ended up developing a $70-million dust policies, particularly in regard to the economic bowl and dividing the community. management of the state. This and the ability to make and take the tough decisions has turned I went back through some old press releases from Victoria around. before 1992 to look at some of the other promises on which Labor said it would deliver. I quote from a What has the government done? The workers press release dated 9 December 1988 headed compensation deficit of $2.1 billion has been 'Victoria to have Omnimax theatre' stating: eliminated. Local government rates have been cut by apprOximately 20 per cent, saving Victoria Victoria will have a new Omnimax theatre following $263 million in 1995-96. That is an estimated average the signing of a contract by the state government this saving of apprOximately $159 per household. week to build a theatre in the new Museum of Victoria. Public sector net debt of more than $30 billion has Not delivered! Another news release headed 'Albert been significantly reduced. The state's interest bill is Park's showpiece in $2 billion games facilities' states: down from $2.36 billion to $1.659 billion in the 1996-97 financial year and it is projected to fall a Melbourne will get a new $250 million Albert Park further $538 million to $1.121 billion in the budget sporting complex ... cater for swimming, diving, for 1997-98. This outcome reflects the reduction of basketball, badminton, volleyball and table tennis ... the public sector net debt from $30.6 billion at the time the Kennett team won government to the Not delivered! projected $14.3 billion as at June 1997. Victoria's credit rating is climbing back towards AAA rating Hon. W. R. Baxter - But delivered by this after being downgraded to the lowest level of all government now. states.

Hon. W. I. SMITH - But delivered by this Although the government is pro-business and government, indeed. The former Labor government actively supports and facilitates new investment, it is also promised to deliver a rapid transit link. It even also important to understand what is happening to announced a short list - again, that was not business. Recently a survey done by government delivered. The former Labor government released a elicited data that will be useful for future strategy for redevelopment of the Docklands - government decisions. Jobs East initiated a business again, not delivered. It talked about bringing the city survey on employment issues and opportunities in to the sea and issued a press release headed the Melbourne eastern region: 20 000 businesses 'Government to extend Collins Street to Docklands'. were surveyed between May and August 1996; Not delivered! businesses were selected at random by geographic area and industry sector. The data from the survey The most interesting one I found, which was the one identified trends in skill needs and employment I went looking for originally, was the announcement opportunities. of a Southbank museum. When the Minister for Major Projects at the time, Mr Kennan, issued a The major findings were that 71 per cent of press release saying the government would build a businesses in Melbourne's east employ fewer than new museum at Southbank, he also called for five people and that the changes that have a investors to help build the new museum because it significant impact on business are new technology, did not have enough money. That was the biggest new products, levels of exports and, importantly, con of all. The former government actually spent government legislation. Projected work force $6 million on the entrance to the new museum changes in the next 12 months are that 64 per cent of because that is all it had. businesses will stay the same; 33 per cent will increase and 3 per cent will decrease. At the same Hon. G. R. Craige - The entrance? time the survey identified 538 job vacancies.

Hon. W. I. SMITH - The entrance, the front In regard to employment in the outer east, during area. Again, not delivered - but delivered by the the December quarter of 1996 the employment rate BUDGET PAPERS, 1997-98

Thursday, 1 May 1997 COUNCIL 625 in the outer east increased by 1.1 per cent over the rate from 7 per cent to 6.25 per cent; the lowering of previous month and 3.2 per cent over the previous petroleum franchise fees and the abolition of deed year. In fact, growth rates in employment exceeded duty, at a cost of 51 million annually. These tax cuts both the Victorian and the Melbourne metropolitan will help to make Victoria a more attractive place to averages. The outer eastern region's employment do business. rate for December 1996 quarter was 5.2 per cent­ the lowest of any region in Victoria and down from The era of Labor government debt and fiscal 6.3 per cent at the same time a year before. mismanagement has been replaced by a responsible government committed to creating an environment Small business is a major contributor to the that fosters business growth and employment economy, providing 50 per cent of all private sector opportunities and recognises, acknowledges and employment. Small business is dynamic and supports women and men involved in business. entrepreneurial and often leads the way in Again, it is with pride I support this budget. technology and innovation. The government recognises the importance of small business and is Hon. R. H. BOWDEN (South Eastern) - This is committed to assisting its growth by removing the sixth budget of the Kennett government and one impediments. Unnecessary red tape has been cut of which we can all be proud. It meets the challenges and some business expenses reduced. for the current circumstances and the future years and charts the way for a forward-looking approach Some of the new initiatives already introduced to the responsible fiscal management of the state. include the abolition of stamp duty on refinancing of business loans. Business is now able to change One very important aspect of this budget is its financial institutions and renegotiate loans. Also, as acknowledgment of the need to share resources, identified in the earlier survey, the number of economic development and understanding of the regulations for small business has been substa11tially underlying needs of both the country and the city. reduced. Under Labor the total number of The opposition often incorrectly says that this regulations affecting business soared to 1241 in 1987. government is metrocentric, but that is not so. This In 1996 this number had been reduced to 494. I budget recognises and emphasises the need for repeat: 1241 down to 494. That is a 60 per cent sharing and for balanced development right across reduction in the total number of regulations in the the state. system. Another feature of the budget is its substantial From 1993 the number of new regulations reduction in state debt. I do not want to dwell at introduced has fallen by 40 per cent over the length on the disaster that this government inherited 1989-1992 period. The KeIUlett government has in October 1992, but I will return to it later. The further demonstrated its commitment to business by progress this government has made in reducing debt establishing a Business East shop in the outer east. is commendable and translates directly into its This is a one-stop shop offering business support enhanced ability to provide resources and services to and ready access to a wide range of information and Victorians through substantial interest savings. The referral services across a range of government debt is down, the interest required to service that agencies. Business East is extremely active in the debt is down and that releases resources for the business community and highly regarded for its role government to provide extra facilities for Victorians. as a support service and for initiating new ideas and linking the businesses in that area. One important point about the budget is that underlying the complex mechanisms that go to put While business confidence has increased in Victoria, the budget together is the crucial philosophy for the we cannot afford to be complacent. We need to listen correct fiscal management of the state - that is, an to the concerns of business and assist by promoting understanding of and a commitment to maintaining an environment enabling business to prosper and a sustainable surplus. The budget is finely managed grow. Business in Victoria has been calling for tax and finely balanced. The sustainable surplus is a key cuts and this budget has started to respond. It is indice of our ability to make progress and be important to remember that even though the state predictable in those vital areas in which we have to debt has been halved, there is still a state debt that supply services. I will return to that later, because needs to be carefully and sensibly managed. This surplus and sustainable surplus are worthy of note budget allows for moderate tax relief to assist in the context of this excellent budget. business through the reduction of the payroll tax BUDGET PAPERS, 1997-98

626 COUNCIL Thursday, 1 May 1997

The budget delivers a $211 million reduction in state such as ours it is important to maintain investment taxation. That substantial reduction announced by in public infrastructure. The infrastructure has been the Treasurer has a number of components and locked in and carried forward as a commitment from relates to reductions in the fuel tax percentage and past statements and is kept at 1.25 per cent of gross payroll tax. It also relates to mortgage refinancing state product amounting to well in excess of $1 provisions where stamp duty on the purchase of billion. It is new, fresh and extremely important homes and on deeds is no longer required. Both because it meets the government's commitment in those measures are each worth approximately two ways: it provides the state with necessary and $1 million to Victorians and they are valuable and important infrastructure programs and resources; it commendable initiatives. The $211 million real encourages a wide-ranging series of infrastructure reduction in state taxes builds upon the already projects at that level; and it provides employment accumulating saving of approximately $1600 million for our professionals and people in the employment each year which flows from the noted and base of the state. well-recorded lowering of Workcover premiums, council rates and the cost of gas, water and The initiative to create new roads in country areas electricity charges. As a result, approximately should be given huge praise. An additional $1600 million is injected every year into the state's $34 million will go towards the new roads, which economic profile. The entire budget is heading will be much appreciated by the people in rural towards completing a picture which, in contrast to Victoria. Some $5 million will be spent on special the Labor government, shows that the coalition is rural roads projects. building a strong, predictable and excellent competitive economic base for Victoria to enable Earlier I mentioned job growth. I would also like to people to invest, provide jobs and base exports. talk about economic activity. Since 1992 there has been more than a 20 per cent increase in economic I turn to employment. From the time of election of activity of the GSP. That is a fine achievement, this coalition government until now 175 000 new especially when one considers the GEeD average jobs have been created. Until March this year 26 700 and the sophistication, difficulty and size of the new jobs were created. Another important aspect of Victorian economy. Rural Victoria makes up the budget brings further credit on this government 29 per cent of the total population of the state. and its management of the state - that is, as advised However, the budget maintains the allocation of by the parliamentary library, exports are currently 38 per cent of investment dollars to rural Victoria. running at more than $15 billion as opposed to when That is an excellent figure. We hear criticism that the the Labor Party left office at the end of 1992 when government does not care or is negative. However, I the figure was $9.05 billion. Not only has there been want it recorded that although the rural population domestic state growth and a growth in GSP, but of Victoria makes up 29 per cent of the total there has also been a substantial growth in exports. population, 38 per cent of investment dollars go to That translates into a high level of confidence, broad rural Victoria. economic activity and the creation of jobs. It also further enhances the progress the government has The real growth estimate for 1997-98 is 3 per cent made. and that is a very respectable figure for an economy such as ours. Given the challenges that have been It is again worth mentioning the state debt to record meet are still to be met that 3 per cent figure is the figure. In 1992 when the coalition came to office entirely respectable. Some major projects are under it was $32.9 billion, or 30.7 per cent of gross state way and major economic adjustments have been product. That is what was required to service the undertaken and are still flowing through the budget disaster the state was landed with. In the 1997-98 program. The privatisation of electricity, the budget that figure of $32.9 billion is now down to restructuring of the gas industry, the promotion of $14.3 billion, or only 10.6 per cent of gross state investment, the prOvision of investment in the port product. That is a fantastic achievement. It is a credit of Melbourne and the privatisation of the public to the cabinet, it is a credit to the coalition and it is a transport are examples. They are large, complex but fine performance by any measure. necessary investments and adjustments to the economy because essentially Victoria competes with Public infrastructure has been maintained in all other states for economic activity. previous budgets and will be maintained in this budget. It is tempting to simplistically say, 'We will Each state competes with the other in the macro save money. We will make cuts', but in an economy economy of the nation and the country also BUDGET PAPERS, 1997-98

Thursday, 1 May 1997 COUNCll- 627 competes internationally. Australia is competing I fully support that concept. The government's goal with countries in this part of the world and with in this budget is to further equip Victoria to compete countries around the globe. It is absolutely vital for a interstate and around the world. This government developed and First World economy such as this to has seen an increase of 9 per cent in the fixed capital make certain that it is efficient and productive so it allocation, which was more than $1 billion in the can attract the necessary financing, investments and 1995-96 fiscal year. Stringent cost controls and high economic programs I mentioned a few minutes ago productivity requirements will be maintained by all to keep the state moving forward. government departments. Substantial productivity increases have been seen in all government I shall mention a few highlights of the government's departments over recent years. That will continue achievements. There was a 50 per cent increase in and has been conceptually locked in in the 1995-96 from 1991-92 in the number of patients construction of this excellent budget. going through the hospital system in Victoria. That is an excellent result and shows that a great amount I will mention some aggregate numbers. The budget of professional management, care and supervision has a sustainable planning surplus of $126.1 million has been given to this very large area of public with an overall surplus of $443.7 million. The responsibility. In education the Schools of the Future revenue for the state, including expected receipts program is working very well indeed. I travel from taxation and grants, is $15580.8 million and widely and often to schools in my large electorate the outlays are expected to be $15 137.1 million. and I have not heard one complaint about the Interestingly, this budget sees a reduction in the concept or the application of that program. The interest-paid component of $538.2 million - in other further investment in that exciting program is words, more $500 million has been saved in interest worthwhile, and both the previous and current through the reduction of state debt. That is very Ministers for Education deserve a great amount of exciting and it means a lot for the taxpayers of credit for the program and the assets it will bring to Victoria. our community through an excellent educational outcome for students in those schools. Preschool I shall briefly mention the tax relief component. It is participation in 1997 is up 4 per cent to 92 per cent, responsibly limited by the underlying budget the highest of any state in our great nation. outcome which I mentioned earlier of a $120 million surplus. Tax cuts amounting to $211 million include Public transport has unquestionably improved. a reduction in payroll tax from the present 7 per cent From time to time I use public transport - I use it a down to 6.25 per cent, bringing Victoria into line lot in the city. Trams and trains are now much with most other states. The reductions result in a net cleaner, they run to better timetables and patronage gain to businesses of apprOximately a $103 million has definitely increased. The government deserves with the inclusion of the employer superannuation full credit and praise for the improvements made to fund contributions in the payroll tax base. the public transport system. The privatisation of the public transport network will proceed and will add The lowering of the petroleum franchise was very to the economic strengths of the state. It is good to well received in my electorate, which has know that this and previous budgets have put the metropolitan, outer suburban and rural elements in public transport system in a very good position, it. The lowering of petroleum franchise fees is which will help in the privatisation program. extremely valuable. It is the government's intention, Everyone in this chamber knows the privatisation as stated by the Treasurer, to ensure that those program of electricity has been under way for some savings are passed on to consumers. They are not years. As recently as this week this house passed a meant to be kept by the distribution system; they bill continuing that program by selling 49 per cent of must be passed on to consumers, and that will be Loy Yang B power generation station. To date monitored carefully. electricity costs are down a reported 39 per cent. The exemption from mortgage duty on the Progress is being made. This government is refinancing of non-business loans is an excellent providing services at the least possible practical cost. $1 million initiative. The people who need to It has a sustained balanced budget, a sustained refinance their non-business loans are now able to current account surplus and has introduced the seek efficient and productive capital. That is a concept of accrual accounting. Accrual accounting is welcome and very valuable feature of the budget. absolutely vital in credibly comparing the accounts The abolition of deed duty of approximately of this state with other large and complex intuitions. $1 million is appreciated. The total cost to revenue BUDGET PAPERS, 1997-98

628 COUNCIL Thursday, 1 May 1997 for 1997-98 is estimated to be $202 million and in a have no hope of attracting large sophisticated full year $211 million. investors. That in itself is a credit to the performance of the Treasurer and the government. The I turn briefly to the current outlays initiatives for government is committed to debt reduction. It is 1997-98 of $81 million, which includes $49.4 million aware of the benefits that will flow to the people of for education. I have spoken about Schools of the Victoria; it will enable more funds to be released to Future. As a member for South Eastern Province I spend on the citizens of the state. Infrastructure appreciate the support given by ministers both past investment has continued and will continue. and present to the schools in my province for such items as the refurbishment program, new schools, Some weeks ago I attended a small business forum funding and other support from the department. conducted by the Minister for Small Business. From the various presentations made by a number of Victoria's tourism initiatives have been important. important small business spokespersons I heard first The state has benefited from enhanced recognition of hand about their needs. I know the government and the importance of tourism promotion, which has the minister are aware of those needs and the created employment and further investment improved communication arising from the forum opportunities. The Minister for Tourism deserves to will be valuable in ensuring that the state be congratulated on taking extra initiatives and government, through its budget, will assist small providing further funding for the marketing of business, a vital employer. The form also positioned Victorian tourism internationally. Tourism has the minister and the government to consider further received a substantial allocation of $4.5 million for initiatives for future budgets. That is important, that purpose. I have the privilege of having Phillip exciting and valuable. Island in my province which is an important tourist destination in this state and which plays a vital role The budget moves forward from the concept first in the total economy and tourism promotion. The enunciated in this chamber in 1992-93. This allocation of $6.6 million for the docklands government is responsible. The cabinet and the development is an excellent investment that will Treasurer have proven that through past budgets. benefit Victoria's image and standing internationally. An article in the Herald Sun of 30 April headed '$100m tax boost for business in Vie Budget' An amount of $41.2 million is to be provided for displays a graph that shows the budget is in balance; human services, including $18.2 million so that the budget balance and sustainable budget balance hospitals can increase their ability to meet the graph is close to zero. growing demand for more complex acute care. Victoria's ageing population requires more Many legitimate and responsible demands are made sophisticated servicing and care, and needs it on the limited funds available. Although funds will quickly with the newer technologies that are be received from the privatisation program they will emerging. It is pleasing that the $18.2 million has be used for the debt reduction program. More been allocated in anticipation of the need that will importantly, the government is concentrating on the certainly come. sustainable budget balance because it will enable it to bring about the new initiatives. The total appropriation approved by Parliament is $13379.186 million, of which $11902.436 million is The contribution made by the South Eastern for current use and $1476.750 million for capital Province to the Victorian economy is substantial. purposes. The budget invests more than $1 billion in The province consists essentially of the Mornington infrastructure and new projects. The budget presents Peninsula, which is made up of the state seats of a concept of stability as well as development. The Dromana, Momington, Cranboume and Gippsland people of Victoria can be confident that the budget West. Those four seats are diverse, complex and displays firm, fair, honest and transparent economic have a wonderful ability to contribute to the management. This is a pro-business government. It economy of the state. has proven that by encouraging private investment. It is exciting that the government has attracted As I look back over the past 12 months and look willing investors to the state. The privatisation of forward to the 12 months ahead, I am excited that Loy Yang A and other privatisation projects has the Treasurer has taken a balanced and responsible meant $4000 million for the state. If the government approach towards appropriately funding did not have the confidence of the financial government departments. The government must community and the community at large it would make further investments in education and health. It BUDGET PAPERS, 1997-98

Thursday, 1 May 1997 COUNCIL 629 is well known that the environmental requirements with a greater opportunity to compete more along the Mornington Peninsula, that precious part effectively for markets, both in Australia and of Victoria, need to be maintained and protected. We overseas. also need good roads, and I am pleased to see that the rural road initiatives forecast substantial As the Treasurer said in his statement, the budget spending in part of my province. delivers the dividends from the improved state finances that all Victorians have worked over the I am very excited that tourism plays a great part in past five years to secure. That is a telling statement the Mornington Peninsula with the wineries and so because it has been hard work. I would be dishonest on. As I said, Phillip Island contributes to the state's if as a country member of Parliament I said that economy. The investments made there and in the there have not been difficult issues to overcome. other areas of my province can only benefit Victoria. However, it is important that we keep reinforcing to the community as a whole the problems that the The budget is responsible, and it is transparent that government faced when it first came to power and the Treasurer is doing an excellent job in a balanced the situation Victoria finds itself in now. way. I emphasise that it is a budget for metropolitan and country Victorians alike. For that and other When the government came to power in 1992 reasons, I am pleased to support it. Victoria had a state debt of $32 billion. It is estimated that by 1 July this year that debt will be reduced to Hon. R. A. BEST (North Western) -It gives me $14.3 billion, an outstanding result. The budget pleasure and pride to support the 1997-98 budget deficit in 1992 was $2.5 billion, and this year the state because more than any previous budget it rewards will have a surplus in the vicinity of $126 million. country Victorians for their understanding and Today Mr Theophanous tried to deflect away from patience while the government was restoring the the government credit for its performance in state's finances and restructuring and rebuilding creating new jobs. When Labor was last in power the many of its services. This budget demonstrates, as unemployment rate was 13 per cent. Since coming to have previous budgets he has handed down, the power the government has created more than Treasurer's outstanding financial management and 175000 jobs. In 1992 business confidence was rock the quality and fiscal responsibility that have been bottom. Today it is excellent. Although business his hallmarks. All Victorians have confidence in the investment was minimal in 1992, the increase in government's ability to handle their money. investment in the food industry since then has been extraordinary, and $4195.2 million has been invested The budget continues the government's agenda of across Victoria since 1992 - an outstanding effort by reforming, revitaliSing and rebuilding, and this year, the government. rewarding Victorians. Victorians now enjoy a feeling of confidence they did not have under the previous Finally, as honourable members will recall, Victoria Labor government. Since 1992 that confidence has was the joke of Australia, the butt of all the jokes. A continued to build, especially following the common joke one often heard was, 'What is the overwhelming endorsement of the government by capital of Victoria? Twenty cents!' I am proud to say the voters of Victoria in the 1996 election. that Victoria is now the envy of the other states. All credit for that outstanding result must go to the The budget outlines a deliberate strategy that has leadership team and other ministers. five key objectives. The first is the delivery of high quality services at the least cost to taxpayers. The In previous budgets the government concentrated second is a good, balanced budget with an account mainly on reducing the debt, improving services, surplus. The third objective is a reduction of state obtaining public sector investment and producing debt and the return of Victoria's AAA credit rating, budget surpluses. This year for the first time that which was lost under the previous administration. effort is being rewarded through a reduction in state The fourth objective is the deliberate emphasis on taxes of some $211 million. Payroll tax is coming infrastructure and the support of a more productive down, country Victoria in particular will benefit economy. That is happening right across country from a reduction in petrol and diesel taxes and Victoria through the rationalisation of water boards exemptions will be granted in relation to mortgage and the delivery of water of World Health refinancing. Those initiatives follow on from last Organisation quality to small towns, many of which year's budget when similar taxation relief was have also been sewered for the first time. The fifth granted to the small business sector. key objective is tax levels that will provide Victoria BUDGET PAPERS, 1997-98

630 COUNCIL Thursday, 1 May 1997

There is a real emphasis on country Victoria in the and for the submission he made to the federal budget. As I said earlier, times have been tough government to make it a road of national throughout country Victoria and on many occasions importance, which will trigger federal funding. He it has been difficult to explain why changes were so also made a submission to the federal review of road vital. The government has restructured local funding seeking additional funding for the government, which has meant lower rates for most duplication of the highway between Bendigo and ratepayers. It has increased the focus in local Melbourne, which is essential. I look forward to the government on investment and development and minister visiting North Western Province at some has restructured water boards in many small towns time during the coming weeks and making a that opposition members would never have heard number of announcements about road projects in the of, such as Laanecoorie, Tamagulla, Bealiba, electorate. Wedderburn, Korong Vale and Dunolly. For the first time, those small towns are receiving water of The budget also includes a reduction in the fuel world-standard quality. excise at a cost to the government of $106 million. The cost of diesel fuel will be reduced by 4 cents a The government has also restructured education and litre and petrol by 1.6 cents a litre. The reduction will transport. One of the most significant reasons for either bring Victorian prices into line with those in Victoria being in such a comfortable financial New South Wales or give us lower prices, and will position is the restructure of the electricity industry. mean cheaper transport costs. As a result farmers I would not for one moment try to convince the will be more competitive because it will be cheaper house that everything is a bed of roses and that what for them to get their stock to market and, it is hoped, the government has provided meets all the provide them with greater returns. expectations of people in the bush. The bush is doing it hard. Country Victoria, including the electorate I Funding is also provided in the budget for not only represent, is faced with a number of difficulties, big hospitals in major regional centres but also for including the current prolonged dry period. There some of the smaller hospitals in my electorate. It is has also been a dramatic reduction in commodity delightful to be able to announce funding of prices. Those problems are compounded by the $12 million for the Bendigo health service. The restructuring that has occurred and many small government has committed almost $35 million for towns have not had the capacity to cushion the funding of the health service over the next few years changes the government has introduced as well as and the $12 million provided this year is a fantastic city people. response to the health needs of people in the Bendigo area. This budget is the start of payback time for country Victoria. It really is the budget for the bush. There are two hospitals in my electorate that will However, I reinforce that the hard work is not over receive $3 million each. The Wycheproof District and there is a need to continue stringent financial Hospital has received the go ahead for a $3 million management. All Victorians have been patient, rejuvenation of its health services through a particularly those of us who live in the bush. The much-needed upgrade. It is thrilling news for the budget is a welcome sign that the government has community. The $3 million allocation will result in a been listening to us and has responded favourably more functional and comfortable new facility for the to our needs. community. The current hospital building is old and does not meet today's functional demands for health One of the major infrastructure problems that we in service delivery. One of the most important aspects the country face is the road network. It is delightful of its upgrade will be the enabling of it to meet the to hear that this year we will receive $95 million in demand for aged care services. funding for rural roads. Our road networks are vital because they take produce to market and they are a Honourable members who represent country major form of communication. We must continue to Victoria are very aware that one of the pressing ensure that major highways such as the Calder issues that requires continued representations to Highway, which connects Mildura with Melbourne, government is primary care services. I am glad, remain under the scrutiny of the government to together with you, Mr Acting President, and our ensure that adequate funding is delivered. colleague the honourable member for Swan Hill in another place, to be able to announce a $3 million I again congratulate the Minister for Roads and boost for the redevelopment of the Robinvale Ports for his commitment to the Calder Highway hospital campus to better suit the health needs of the BUDGET PAPERS, 1997·98

Thursday, 1 May 1997 COUNCIL 631 community. For example, at present the acute care about the decision until I read about it in the local section is in poor shape and the nursing home media, and it upset me to such an extent that I spoke accommodation is isolated, which means there are to people from the regional health office to ascertain significant operating difficulties. The $3 million in what was happening. funding will mean that by 1999 Robinvale will be the proud owner of a newly developed multipurpose I must praise the professional attitude of Ms Jan health facility. That is fantastic news. Snell in providing assistance to me from the first day I received notification. It was arranged for me to All people in our small communities will welcome meet the advisory board at Dunolly with Jan Snell to the news that many small hospitals are receiving investigate the basis on which the Maryborough from the government because it demonstrates the board had made its decision. Dunolly hospital is not importance of aged care facilities in those dissimilar to a number of other hospitals around communities. Victoria's population is ageing and the Victoria with the same number of beds, except that it types of services that will be delivered by these was operating at a loss while many of those other health care centres is changing. hospitals, which were operating on different models, were in surplus. I told the Minister for Health there It is disappointing to continually hear the carping in was a shortage of age-care beds in the Central the background of the Labor Party that the Goldfields shire and requested assistance in having government is closing hospitals throughout country Dunolly hospital compared with other country Victoria. The honourable member for Bendigo West hospitals of the same size within Victoria and in another place, Mr Bob Cameron, continually carps interstate. about what the government is doing to country hospitals. It is particularly disappointing that from The minister agreed to my request in February, and the way he presents his facts he appears to have Coopers and Lybrand were engaged to undertake attended the Theophanous school of ethics. the consultancy. The preliminary finding released just two or three weeks ago showed that the Hon. D. A. Nardella - Especially at Dunolly, administration costs apportioned by the where you wouldn't even turn up! Maryborough District Health Service board to the Dunolly campus were exorbitant compared with the Hon. R. A. BEST - I am delighted to take the administration costs of other hospitals of a similar opportunity to discuss the interjection by size throughout Victoria. Armed with that Mr Nardella. I will tell him something about information we went back to the minister. He Dunolly: it was not the current government that approached the members of the Maryborough made the decision to close Dunolly hospital, yet that District Health Service board, showed them the is the line being peddled by Mr Cameron and the figures and asked whether they would like to Labor Party. rescind their decision to close the Dunolly campus.

Hon. W. R. Baxter- Wrongly! Hon. I. J. Cover interjected.

Hon. R. A. BEST - Yes, very wrongly! The fact is Hon. R. A. BEST - Yes, he is a caring and that the Maryborough District Health Service made sharing minister. I am delighted to inform the house a decision to close the Dunolly campus because it that based on the information at its disposal- - was subsidising it to the tune of about $80 000 per year. One of the things that concerns me -- Hon. D. A. Nardella - It was the campaign.

Hon. D. A. Nardella interjected. Hon. R. A. BEST - It had nothing to do with the campaign. I point out that I have a report card on the Hon. R. A. BEST -It engaged the consultants activities of the honourable member for Bendigo KPMG to undertake a study that demonstrated that West which I shall read to the house. He is the same the hospital was not viable. Based on that as Mr Nardella and Mr Theophanous - he does not information the board decided it could no longer care about the facts or about doing hard work. They support the Dunolly campus and that it should close are interested only in making as much noise as they it. A number of things then occurred. The most can because they do not rely on the truth. disappointing thing was that the Maryborough District Health Service did not do me the courtesy of Members of the Dunolly community were upset that advising me of what it was doing. I did not know they were losing the hospital, and from day one they BUDGET PAPERS, 1997-98

632 COUNCIL Thursday, 1 May 1997 were advised of the Healthstreams model. The President, the Honourable Bruce Chamberlain, honourable member for Bendigo West waved his Mr de Fegely and other honourable members who arms around but did not know what the issues were represent north-west Victoria have for some time about. He did not take the time to contact the been passionate about obtaining funding for the regional office to find out the facts. He could not Wirnmera-Mallee pipeline. I do not know if many have cared less about them. The issue was resolved members remember my predecessor, Mr Bernie because the government had never made a decision Dunn, but when I entered Parliament he advised me to close Dunolly hospital; but the information in the that if I could arrange funding for the pipeline I second report encouraged the Maryborough board would never have to worry about being voted in at to rescind its motion to close the hospital. The other future elections. I do not know if his advice would issue I wish to raise relates to extra nursing home be accurate in the current climate! beds. Hon. D. A. Nardella - I will tell Russell Savage Hon. W. R. Baxter interjected. about this.

Hon. R. A. BEST - I would be very concerned, Hon. R. A. BEST - You can tell him anything Mr Baxter, if Mr Nardella gave me any credit. I have you like. I do not mind if you are an advocate of given him the facts, but he is not interested in them. mine. During the next four years budget funding will enable stages 4 to 7 of the pipeline to be Hon. D. A. Nardella interjected. completed. The extension will provide services to the Wimmera and will include a new pump station Hon. R. A. BEST - I am comfortable within at Wemen, on the River Murray, and a rising main to myself. The professionals and the other thinking Ouyen followed by the piped reticulation of people within the town who know what happened 240 000 hectares of land west of Underbool and east have expressed confidence in me. I was pleased to towards Kulwin, Mittyack and Nandaly. It is receive a letter from Alistair Gray, the chairman of fantastic news for the community. the Save Dunolly Hospital committee, who thanked me for helping the community save the hospital. The project will replace all the open-water channels in the northern-most 20 per cent of the Hon. D. A. Nardella - Is this after you blasted Wimmera-Mallee water supply system with a him on the telephone? network of pipelines. It will result in greater efficiency, significantly improved water quality and Hon. R. A. BEST - I do not remember blasting a reliable, year-round supply of water to farms. The him or anyone else on the telephone. I am a gentle completed work will allow 50 000 megalitres of the person. The health stream model will be of great water conveyed up to 300 kilometres from the assistance. For the first time a new system of flexible Grampians each year into the northern Mallee to be funding will be introduced for small rural hospitals replaced by a 5000-megalitre year supply from the that have been unable to operate effectively under River Murray. It is wonderful news and will help case mix. conservation efforts.

I am delighted that schools at Spring Gully, Hon. D. A. Nardella interjected. Strathfieldsaye, Swan Hill North and Swan Hill will benefit from the substantial funding allocations in Hon. R. A. BEST - That is not my claim. This is the budget. I am disappointed that funding has not what riles me about many members of the Labor yet been found for a school in the Mildura area that Party - they talk rubbish! They do not care about is of special interest to me, but I am hopeful it will be the facts, only what they perceive to be facts. They forthcoming under another program. The believe that if they continue to tell a lie long enough government is maintaining its commitment to some people will believe it. spending $1 billion on education over the next four years. Again, not only is the government providing money through this budget for specific projects and works, The government has allocated capital works funding but it is also creating an environment that will seek of $1.29 million to replace inadequate court facilities business investment and job creation in country in Bendigo. The new court facilities will help reduce Victoria. Many people have misunderstood that in the growing waiting list. Mr Acting President, you, order to attract investment to smaller country towns JOM Forrest, the federal member for Mallee, the throughout Victoria the government must ensure BUDGET PAPERS, 1997-98

Thursday, 1 May 1997 COUNCil. 633 those to\'\mS have quality water supplies, adequate taking into account the level of investment, the roads and the support of municipalities and people number of jobs created and the exports. Some of the within the area. The government has been about recipients of that have been companies such as building that environment, putting the National Dairies Victoria in Morwell, in the infrastructure in place and providing that confidence electorate of my colleague Mr Hall. That company to invest. A government must always provide approached the Victorian government seeking support to business should those o\'\mers have assistance to establish a $60 million greenfields milk inquiries. processing plant and a $25 million UHT plant in Victoria. The two projects representing a total A wonderful initiative of the government has been investment of $85 million involved the creation of to open the First Place shops, business facilities that more than 170 new jobs in regional Victoria. The can be visited by any small business operator or government provided assistance through the intended business operators as a one-stop shop to ministerial industry council to secure these find out what licences are required, what assistance developments which are now under way in Morwell. is available and what programs are on offer. Not only is there a First Place shop in Bendigo but there The Moira Shire Council in the Cobram area is also a is also a First Place shop in Mildura, so at both ends recipient of a Victorian government grant. It of my electorate the government has provided received $225 000 on a dollar-for-dollar basis to business advice centres for small business operators upgrade road infrastructure and drainage to enable or intending small business operators to make the development of a new industrial estate. The inquiries. Department of Social Security telecentre at Ballarat was also the recipient of government assistance Since 1992 the government through Business which resulted in the creation of 100 new jobs. Two Victoria has been able to attract investment totalling years ago the Victorian government established an $4195 million. Although country Victoria makes up Amcor task force under the auspices of Business only 28.5 per cent of the population it has attracted Victoria to coordinate all government inputs which 37.5 per cent of that investment and that has flowed could influence and cause investment decisions. The through to employment. Employment growth is result of this initiative has seen Victoria win 60 per cent faster in country Victoria than in the $350 million of investment in a paper machine and metropolitan area and unemployment is declining upgrade by Amcor at its Maryvale plant which 70 per cent faster than in the metropolitan area. Also again will provide 100 new jobs. through Business Victoria we are seeing additional funding to support both councils and industry Under the second strategy, which is expanding local expand in country Victoria. business, the government is committed to helping existing businesses in rural Victoria to grow to their Through changes introduced by the Minister for full potential. The grants are aimed at assisting Rural Development through the Partnerships for businesses which may not be exporters but which Growth program the government has a are able to provide expansion and job creation four-pronged strategy to attract businesses to opportunities within their local communities. country Victoria. The first is investment attraction; the second is expanding local industries; the third is There are a number of examples within this priority projects; and the fourth is the rural program, but the one I shall refer to is a firm within development schemes. Those new programs are part my home to\'\m at Bendigo, Aerocom Lighting. That of the Rural Victoria 2001 policy that has been a company manufactures a unique solar charged, pilot long-term government program and one which activated aerodrome lighting system, which has recognises the economic importance and social been designed as a low cost alternative to the more community needs of rural Victoria. traditional in-ground reticulated electric lighting systems. The company has looked at export Under the investment attraction strategy assistance potential in Indonesia and Malaysia, which share is both facilitative and financial and it is offered to 17500 islands. Many have air strips that are attract investment to rural Victoria. Emphasis is inoperable at night because they do not have and placed on industry in which Victoria has a cannot afford the traditional forms of lighting. competitive advantage such as food processing, Closer to home the Shire of Buloke at Charlton forest products and the processing of natural fibres. recently purchased this system with financial The program is flexible and provides financial assistance from Business Victoria. assistance to be assessed on a case-by-case basis BUDGET PAPERS, 1997-98

634 COUNCIL Thursday, 1 May 1997

The third program is priority projects. This program offers financial assistance to build or improve replaces the previous BARA program that was community assets which are critical to revitalising operating throughout country Victoria and basically local areas and enhancing their civic and commercial provided the salaries for economic development appeal. This is funded through the Community officers. Under this program the Victorian Support Fund. I am delighted to say a number of government will in partnership with rural small towns and facilities have been able to access communities identify projects that will improve local this scheme and benefit from the funding that has infrastructure and enhance the attractiveness of rural been provided. Some of the beneficiaries have been areas as investment locations. That will be done the Skip ton Mechanics Institute Hall, the basically on a dollar-for-dollar basis with local Maryborough Civic Precinct and the North West municipalities. Although the BARA program has Business Centre at Warracknabeal. A number of served us well in the past, with the restructuring of other applications have been received and all local local government there needed to be a re-emphasis members are very conscious of the need to of development within those small municipalities. encourage their councils to make sure they apply for The government is acting in partnership to assist funding from that program because, again, it assists them in providing the infrastructure and facilities in upgrading many community assets that are within their towns. I will provide the house with a vitally important. There are other programs through couple of examples so honourable members are which the government is assisting regional and rural aware of the benefits the program can provide. development. The Export Managers Program has been an outstanding success and continues to go The government provided to Moira Shire Council at from strength to strength. Yarrawonga $49000 because it was keen to attract Douglas Aviation's aircraft refurbishment and But these are some of the good news stories. I accept maintenance business from New South Wales to that not all areas of country Victoria have enjoyed Yarrawonga. That move, which would increase the same success as others. I wish a lot of this good employment in the town by 25, was dependent on a news was far more widespread, but one of the $49 000 upgrade of the aerodrome to allow the problems the government faces is the level of servicing of larger aircraft. misinformation the Labor Party continues to provide to many of our communities. The distortion of facts The Glenelg Shire Council at Portland was keen to by opposition members is very disappointing. My promote the great benefits of the deep water port. concern comes, I suppose, because of first-hand The government provided $20 000, which was experience of the activities of the honourable matched by the shire's money to assist in putting member for Bendigo West in another place, Mr Bob together a brochure that would demonstrate the Cameron. Not only is he being very loose with the competitive strength of that port. facts but he is being very careless in the way he is playing on the emotions of many small towns. I Probably one of the lovely stories of this program direct the house's attention to a press statement by relates to the money provided to Harrow in the West Mr Cameron in the Bendigo Advertiser, which states: Wimmera shire. It is a community of only 150 people, but they have embarked on a The Wycheproof and Donald public hospitals were the community-driven program to revitalise economic latest to become caught up in the bed battle yesterday. activity in their town through participation in Active Tourism. They are using an innovative living He is peddling the rumour that these small hospitals township concept. The community is in the process will close. It is absolute rubbish, but when of further developing this concept. The government information like that is spread through the was able to give it $20 000 through Business Victoria. community, the community obviously reacts with That is one of those programs where the great distress and concern. I think it has escaped government, in partnership with the community Mr Cameron's notice - although I will no doubt through a program like this, can deliver great remind him over the next few days through the benefits to even the smallest of communities. media - that the government has actually just provided $3 million to the Wycheproof hospital for The fourth strategy is the Rural Economic an upgrade. Yet, a fortnight ago Mr Cameron was Development scheme. The new scheme reflects the reported in the press as saying the hospital was on government's recognition that the quality of the government's hit list. It is totally irresponsible of community facilities and assets often influences the him to play on the emotions of country people. decisions made by companies to invest. The scheme Unfortunately, many of them are under stress, and it BUDGET PAPERS, 1997-98

Thursday, 1 May 1997 COUNCIL 635 is a disgrace that Mr Cameron has chosen to do that. he was challenged about continually getting his facts In fact, in the article Mr Cameron challenges me to wrong, his defence was to say, 'I am the only reject the moves to cut nursing home and acute beds. member north of the Divide, and I have to say things I say to Mr Cameron: let the facts speak for to keep the government honest' - forget your themselves. comrnWlity, forget your credibility as a member of Parliament and forget the standing that members of Hon. I. J. Cover - You answered the challenge. Parliament have!

Hon. R. A. BEST - Yes, I answered the I thought it was only fair to do a report card on challenge. There is a consultancy taking place in the Mr Cameron to monitor his representations over the Buloke shire. past year. The name of the candidate is Robert Cameron. His grade is first-year trainee and his Hon. G. R. Craige - I have been there. address is Bendigo West. This is for the period March 1996 to March 1997. On the subject of the Hon. R. A. BEST - Yes, we took you there. A number of deputations arranged to ministers, the consultancy is taking place and a preliminary report answer is nil and the score is D. On the number of has been produced, but a final report of the needs meetings arranged with ministers, the answer is nil analysis and the service plan for the Buloke shire and the score is D. On the number of grants secured 'Will be tabled only when a mutually developed and for commWlity groups or organisations, the answer agreed model has been costed and endorsed by all is nil and the score is D. On the number of economic parties involved. development initiatives for his electorate, the answer is nil and the score is D. I have demonstrated how Mr Cameron is continuing to distort the facts. But that is not the only time he On the number of social cultural initiatives secured has done so. He has been very loose with the facts in the electorate the answer is nil and the score is D. relating to the DWlolly hospital as well. It was not On the number of successful amendments to state the government closing that hospital; it was a legislation the answer is nil. On the number of decision made by the Maryborough District Health government programs secured for electorate the Services Board and we needed to provide it with answer is nil and the score is D. On the number of sufficient information to change its mind and private members bills introduced the answer is nil rescind the resolution it had on its books. and the score is D. On the number of changes to government policies secured the answer is nil. For Mr Cameron has been Wltruthful and has distorted being anti-business the score is A. I refer to recent the facts relating to the Wycheproof hospital. He has headlines in the Bendigo Advertiser including 'Let us been very Wltruthiul in the way he has continued to open: "shop owners"', and 'Mayor welcomes promote employment figures, and he has been less Sunday trading debate'. Regardless of public than factual in his comments about the spending opinion, the opinion of business owners within analysis in the 1996-97 state budget. One of the Bendigo and the wishes of the mayor, the things he did, instead of doing his homework and honourable member for Bendigo West in the other investigating, was to rely on Mr Theophanous's place wants to close down shops on SWldays, so for figures - which were proved to be absolutely that he gets an A . For accuracy he gets an F because shonky. In fact, it was suggested according to those he relies on Mr Theophanous's statistics - the ones figures that some 74 per cent of funding was being he provides from budget papers, made up spent in the metropolitan area compared with only Wlemployment figures, and a range of other pieces 25 per cent in the COWltry. But when you include of misinformation. So overall Mr Cameron's first non-budget authorities, the percentage of spending term has not been outstanding. for the metropolitan area was actually 50.3 per cent and 49.7 per cent for COWltry areas. We have a It is disappointing that members of Parliament can continual distortion of the facts by Mr Carneron. be so negative. It has not been an easy task for the coalition since coming to government to try to rectify The other point I make is that Mr Cameron was also the financial mismanagement with which it was very loose with the facts in regard to rail services. He faced. It is important to recognise the difficulties suggested there was no service between Kyneton being experienced in the bush, but I am concerned at and Bendigo, when in fact every morning we the level of misinformation and inaccuracy which provide a bus that leaves Kyneton's railway station attacks the credibility of all members of Parliament. and goes to Bendigo via a number of schools. When It is very important for members to ensure the BUDGET PAPERS, 1997-98

636 COUNCil- Thursday, 1 May 1997 accuracy of the statements they make to this house upgrade the region's capacity to handle some of the and the community. more complex and demanding surgical procedures that have hitherto required patients travelling to I welcome the statements attributed to the Treasurer Melbourne. Obviously that will benefit not only of the inability of the bush to adequately push some patients but their families when visiting patients. of the changes that this government has attempted to introduce. Country Victoria is doing it tough and I have been very pleased to participate in the it is important that this government continues to material expansion of major capital works, both reform, revitalise, rebuild and reward country reconstruction and maintenance, that has taken Victoria for supporting this government as it has place in the region's schools across the province I done and will continue to do. I urge country represent from Lara through to Grovedale. Victorians to work with this government for the Substantial expenditure has improved the physical benefit of all Victoria. fabric of those schools. In the year that has just passed almost $1 million has been spent on Lara and It is important for the government to continue with Lara Lake primary schools. I had the honour of its fiscal policy and financial management, restore opening the new gymnasium, which is also a the AAA credit rating, introduce substantial tax valuable additional asset for the Lara community. I reductions for business in future, encourage congratulate the City of Greater Geelong for making continued business growth and ensure that Victoria a sizeable contribution to that facility, together is positioned as a major supplier of communications general grants from the Department of Education and increases its exports ahead of the rest of and a grant from the Minister for Rural Australia. This government has created more than Development. As a consequence both the 150000 jobs since its election in 1992 and the community and school have an outstanding facility leadership of the Treasurer and the Premier with that will benefit pupils and the wider community. regard to financial management must be applauded. That is to be followed up this financial year by the This budget rewards those of us in country Victoria reconstruction of the library, which will provide who support what the government is doing, and I improved facilities to a go-ahead school community have much pleasure in supporting the Treasurer's and which will match developments already taking statement and the 1997-98 budget. place at Lara Primary School.

Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN (Geelong) - I have A significant amount of money has already been great pleasure in supporting the 1997-98 budget. spent at Oberon High School on the other side of my Last week my colleagues and I talked to electorate replacing an antiquated gymnaSium, and representatives of the Geelong Performing Arts a further $300 000 to $400 000 is to be spent there this Centre about the $2 million allocated for expenditure year. Substantial capital refurbishments will take over the next two years to replenish and redevelop place at Grovedale Secondary School and Belmont that location. That is the first major expenditure on High School, which is one of the best schools in the Victoria's premier professional entertainment centre! region and has an outstanding academic record. The $2 million will bring this facility up to scratch with a new box office, new foyer and new reception Hon. I. J. Cover - That is myoid school. areas. It will enable the upgrading of the airconditioning in the theatres and will respond to Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN - I acknowledge the very satisfactory growth in demands for cultural Mr Cover's interjection. He is characteristic of the activity. It matches the opportunities made available quality of person that school has produced. The through the great hall at the wool store which has school is fairly deserving of an upgrade, and materially expanded Geelong's capacity to attract everyone will be pleased to see that happen. the best entertainment in that part of the world. Things are moving. It is even happening with The government has allocated $5 million towards private development in the area. It is delightful to the expansion of facilities at Geelong Hospital. That see the improvement in the waterfront at Corio. My is not merely an investment in bricks and mortar electorate office has a good view of it and it looks investment; it matches expenditure which the better every month as we tidy up some of the gaps hospital has taken out of its reserves. It will in the landscape left by 15 years of inaction. Now we materially improve the hospital's capacity to start to see the private and public sectors working provide better service for the new technology together to return that part of Geelong to being an needed for the region and, in particular, will attractive area. BUDGET PAPERS, 1997-98

Thursday, 1 May 1997 COUNCil... 637

It adds to the other attractions in that part of the I will not read through every page of the budget world, including the Eastern Beach development, documents because I have no doubt my colleagues which the community has pursued with great will address particularly the important issues, but I enthusiasm. Other developments starting to come shall refer to a number of matters that are important into play include the Deakin wool stores and the to the background of the 1997-98 budget. transport interchange involving the federal, state and local governments. All are transforming the The opposition likes to argue in the press, which has waterfront area in Geelong and it is now starting to given it lots of coverage, about relative expenditure attract new business. on services in this state compared with other states. The budget papers contain a report and an analYSis It is an extremely attractive place to visit, as is based on the Commonwealth Grants Commission reflected in the success of Smorgy's restaurant, assessments of appropriate levels of spending which is literally continuously booked out. That activity on a state-by-state basis. Notwithstanding restaurant is a tremendous attraction on the end of the attempt by people in education and health the pier, with water on all sides. It is starting to unions to distort the material, the Commonwealth make an enormous difference to recreational tourism Grants Commission advises that given this state's in Geelong. density of population, and therefore its lower costs of providing services in health and education, They are important issues and they continue the Victoria's adjusted expenditure on those areas is just important work in rural and provincial areas of about equal to the average of all states. I must say Victoria of spending money on asset maintenance that five years ago it was 8 to 10 per cent higher, but and development, providing physical infrastructure that does not necessarily mean Victorians were and making the place more pleasant to live in as getting 8 to 10 per cent better services. We were well as enhancing our capacity to train our children merely spending 8 to 10 per cent more on the as well as possible. Geelong is already a nice place to services. live; these developments are making it even more attractive. I have no doubt we will see mOre personal The work we have undertaken to reform education and private investment in that part of the world and health is starting to bear dividends in the cost because of the work undertaken by the government. and quality of the services delivered. The Commonwealth Grants Commission observes that In Geelong we need to diversify our economic and its adjustments are based purely on geographic and social bases. The area is under some threat from the demographic issues. The commission makes no restructuring of the economy, which seems to be attempt to assess the different qualities that a wise taking place without much regard to what it does to expenditure of moneys on health, education and local communities. I regret to say the BHP rod mill is other services might provide. I continue to hear the about to close, cutting employment for 50 to unions and the opposition say we are spending 80 people. I understand why it had to happen, but some percentage less on education than New South these sorts of things mean Geelong has to take a Wales does. We are interested in outcomes rather wide variety of actions to broaden its economic base. than the cost.

I am pleased the action the government is taking will You should not be able to or want to measure the materially assist it. Despite the closure of the BHP quality of the services you provide by cost. It was facility, Ford is continuing to invest in activities in clear that the former Labor government attempted to Geelong. Its new model has significant implications do something like that. It had 40 000 more people for activity at the You Yangs, where the most than it needed to deliver the services. If we justify advanced technological activity in Australia is service by the number of people we employ and fail taking place and a great deal of capital investment in to pay attention to the way we deliver services, good new equipment is being made. Next week I will be management of the resources and good visiting that site with the Minister for Industry, organisation, we fail to do our duty to the citizens Science and Technology. Those industries are and taxpayers of Victoria. responding favourably to the environment the government has created because they can see we are The position we have taken in reforming the committed to make this a more competitive place in administration of health, education and other which to operate. services will be reflected in action by other states who benchmark their performances on the standards established in Victoria. A bit of BUDGET PAPERS, 1997-98

638 COUNCIL Thursday, 1 May 1997 competitive federalism is a great thing. The fact that coalition government acted immediately to attack we have been able to improve the quality of health the $2.2 billion deficit it was left with in 1992-93. and education services while reducing the cost will Approximately $1 billion of the deficit was attacked have a significant bearing on other states, by reducing costs, and $1.1 billion by higher taxes. particularly New South Wales, which has got itself Borrowing money for which there is no recovery into serious financial difficulties because it cannot program is merely taxing future generations. control the power of the unions or the way money is Consequently, from the very beginning of the spent. Other states will take cognisance of the recovery period the government built into the programs Victoria has adopted to the benefit of the revenue base about $1 billion of taxes to recover the state and all Victorians. excessive debt.

Privatisation may have achieved a number of I am pleased to see that this year the Treasurer has benefits, not the least of which is a reduction in the been able to offer some modest tax reductions, likely price of electricity in the future. That particularly on payroll tax. I am pleased the demonstrates how poorly the investment made by Treasurer has widened the tax base by including successive governments in the SEC was being superannuation in the assessment. I know it involves rewarded because of ineffective utilisation. an extra 600 small businesses; but perhaps more Yesterday we debated the Loy Yang B legislation. It importantly, payroll tax has been reduced by was clear that the price paid for Loy Yang B and 0.75 per cent. It is not much, but it is a move in the other areas of activity was based more on the right direction. It shows once again that the expected revenue yield than the cost of putting those government continues to be concerned about the facilities in place. The government has been able to effect of the burden of these not very satisfactory get such good asset sale prices because the public taxes on our capacity to compete and attract sector was running itself appallingly and the investment and employment. opportunity for the private sector to make efficiencies, thus increasing the value of the assets, It is interesting that departmental costs have been was demonstrable. stabilised. In the 10 years when the opposition was in government departmental costs increased by Table F1 at pages 164 to 166 of the budget statement, 66 per cent. The government is looking at something for those who may be interested in these things, less than a 30 per cent increase over the same length deals with certain financial data for 1985-86 through of time, so there is no question that it is rurming a to projections for 2001. Page 164 shows that for the tight ship. I look forward to further surpluses and nine years from 1984-85 to 1992-93 the current hope that there will be a modest capacity to account was in deficit, in millions of dollars, to the progressively reduce debt. tune of $204.9, $440.3, $512.5, $302.5, $517.2, $776.1, $811.7, $941.1 and $1042.4. That deficit was in the I remind honourable members that in terms of per current account, where expenditure, mainly on capita debt and debt to state domestic product, salaries, wages and interest rates, exceeded revenue. Victoria is still some way off the Australian average. The difference in the average tax burden has been If you look only at the current account data for that reduced by $300 million over the last couple of period you see that the Labor government racked up years. There is still a $500 million excess tax problem $5 billion worth of debt that did not have one dollar that has to be addressed, but only in the context of a in asset backing behind it. It did not get one thing for sustainable financial position. I am pleased to note that $5 billion of debt. It is interesting to observe that that the Treasurer identifies that as one of his of the current account deficit of $5 billion Labor objectives. The government has to establish a racked up, something like $1.5 billion to $2 billion prudent financial regime of income and expenditure was spent on interest on the debt - or interest on while enSuring that Victoria is as competitive as the interest. One has only to look through the figures possible with the other states. I look forward to our to understand the primrose path of dalliance tax levels becoming more competitive in future through which Labor proceeded so merrily and so years, which will again contribute to our ability to irresponsibly. attract investment and employment.

I refer to the last year of Labor, 1992-93, when taxes, I also agree with the Treasurer's decision to use asset fees and fines represented 55 per cent of total sales for debt reduction - as well as what you revenue. In 1997-98 the ration is exactly the same. I might call extraordinary income receipts that are want to remind honourable members that the unlikely to be repeated. It is wise to always exclude ADJOURNM ENT

Thursday, 1 May 1997 COUNCIL 639 them from the surplus for tax reductions or other benefits. We are not making as much progress as we expenditure. It is also wise to use those amounts to should because of the obstructionism in the Senate, reduce debt so that the advantages of the one-time including the bloody-minded obstructionism of the extraordinary gains are spread over future interest Labor Party, which has had enough time to rate reductions. understand the defects in the tax structure, the industrial relations structure, the interest rate All in all, this is a very good budget. The structure and the debt structure. I only wish we government has spent the last five years managing were dealing with those problems more quickly. the disaster left by the Labor government after its Despite our best endeavours, our inability to move decade of deprivations. No sooner is that out of the as quickly as we need to at the commonwealth level way than there is a change of federal government will continue to have a dampening effect on the and we are faced with the same old problem. We otherwise attractive propositions that sound now have to contribute to the resurrection of the government in this state has delivered. federal government's budget by helping to finance the $10 billion black hole left by the federal Labor Debate adjourned on motion of government. More importantly - this is what really Hon. R. J. H. WELLS (Eumemmerring). annoys me - in the process of doing that some downward pressure will be placed on the level of Debate adjourned until next day. economic activity throughout Australia and, obviously, throughout the state. Once again, we are ADJOURNMENT having to pay for a Labor government which attempted to camouflage its appalling performance Hon. R. 1. KNOWLES (Minister for Health) - I by borrowing on the future. We are the future, so we move: have to deal with it. That the Council, at its rising, adjourn until Tuesday, Given the background to and the history of the 13 May. government's performance, this is a very good budget. It will be seen by every responsible person Motion agreed to. in this state as being exactly the right response to sustain growth. Victoria continues to be a place in Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Minister for Health) - I which you can invest with confidence in the move: expectation that circumstances will not change radically. This is a budget on which the state can That the house do now adjourn. continue to expand, improve standards of living and create higher employment. The sooner our friends in Darebin: mayoral allowance the federal government are able to get their problems under control, the sooner we will see a Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS Gika Jika) - I wish higher rate of growth in this state and in this nation. to raise a complaint with the Minister for Planning and Local Government and to also ask a question. Finally, the budget documents refer to state-federal On 30 April an article appeared in the Preston Post financial relationships. It deals with both horizontal Times under the heading 'Minister alleges mayoral and vertical fiscal matters, and notes the imbalances package paying membership fees'. The article claims that exist. The need for the material reform of the that the Minister for Planning and Local financial relationships and tax structures is Government, Mr Robert Maclellan, had alleged in irrefutable, because the tax system is holding the Parliament that Jika Jika Labor MP, country back. All thoughtful people understand Theo Theophanous, intended using $18 000 of the that, but governments at the state and federal levels Darebin council mayoral package to fund branch need all the people that make the decisions to agree stacking in the area. before they can act. Regrettably, we have to deal with the Senate, where some people make decisions, The article goes on to quote Mr Maclellan's some people are incapable of making them and comments in Parliament in support of his claim. I do some people, with the benefit of proportional not believe the quote is entirely accurate about what representation, are holding everyone else back. Mr Maclellan said. Nevertheless the article also refers to Mr Ron Best and others being given a When proportional representation brings the document supporting the claims. government to a stop, you have to wonder about the ADJOURNMENT

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I wish to make it clear to the house that the Mediation, as the minister would know, can assist in allegations of this article and those of the minister preventing youth homelessness by providing a safe are totally untrue and, in my view, defame me. and neutral environment where all parties involved can discuss their concerns. When the young person I believe the information the minister and Mr Best has already left home, mediation can be used to have relied upon is an unsigned, unsubstantiated open up communication between family members. document that has been deliberately and maliciously produced by individuals who are opposed to me The service has been funded by what was the Office politically. Obviously there are people in politics of Youth Affairs from July 1994 to 30 June 1997. In who are prepared to resort to these sorts of tactics. other words, the funding is about to run out. They should not be encouraged by members of Currently, a review of family mediation services is Parliament to promote their cowardly, unsigned being conducted but it is unlikely to be finished and attacks on members. considered before the funding runs out.

The mayor of Darebin has also denied these I support family mediation: it is an excellent, malicious accusations in a letter which has already practical service that really works for families. It been drawn to the attention of the house, including would be a tragedy if these services, of which the totally untrue allegation that he would be Wise man is one, were not to have continued funding receiving his allowance up front. for a further three years. In the meantime, I ask the minister to guarantee funding at least until the end I also totally and completely deny these cowardly, of the calendar year to enable the review to be malicious allegations. I invite the minister or Mr Best completed, assessed and acted upon. I commend to either repeat them outside Parliament or to issue a family mediation as a program that works and urge full apology. that the program continue. Rail: Melboume-Geelong line Rail: Anzac Day concessions

Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN (Geelong) - I ask Hon. I. J. COVER (Geelong) - I raise an issue the minister representing the Minister for Transport with the Minister for Roads and Ports representing to seek advice on the following matter of concern to the Minister for Transport in another place. I do so the people in Geelong. As the minister would with the memory of last Friday's Anzac Day know - but if he does not, I will advise him - the commemorations still fresh in my mind. At Geelong, Melbourne-Geelong rail service is essentially in company with my colleague Mr Hartigan, I provincial. The electrification of the line finishes at attended the dawn service at Jolmstone Park at Werribee and the integration of the rail service into 4.15 before moving on to Torquay with the the metropolitan service is truncated at honourable member for South Barwon in another North Melbourne. place for an extremely well attended and well presented service complete with a flyover by Tiger Will the minister inform me what would be involved Moths. Later we attended the Geelong RSL for a in extending the electrification of the line and wreath-laying ceremony before going to Jolmstone integrating the Melbourne-Geelong rail service into Park for the march past. the metropolitan system to materially improve both speed and convenience to the travelling public? Against that background, I wish to point out the public transport arrangements for ex-servicemen Wiseman Youth Services and women on the day. As I understand it, the ex-servicemen and women travel at 30 per cent off Hon. C. J. HOGG (Melbourne North) - I raise a normal fares on Anzac Day. A constituent, who matter for the attention of the minister representing travelled from Geelong to Melbourne by train to join the Minister for Youth and Community Services. I his regiment for the march to the Shrine, although draw to the minister's attention Wiseman Youth expressing his gratitude for the discounted rate, Services in Glenroy, part of the Mission to Streets believes public transport should be free of charge on and Lanes, which offers a family mediation service Anzac Day. The Minister for Roads and Ports, in to help young people between the ages of 12 and bringing this matter to the attention of the Minister 25 and their families when they are unable to resolve for Transport, will no doubt see some merit in this the conflicts that can lead to family breakdown. suggestion as he is himself an ex-serviceman. ADJOURNMENT

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Ambulance officers: training Conservation and Land Management in another place, the problem of European wasps, which seems Hon. S. M. NGUYEN (Melbourne West) - I raise to be increasing. A recent edition of the Ararat a matter for the attention of the Minister for Health. Advertiser, which is a great little paper, contains an The matter relates to an inquiry by a constituent of article headed, 'Wasp problem out of control'. my province, Mr David Dandy, an ambulance officer Recently the parks and gardens superintendent in who lives in Wyndham Vale. This matter has some Ararat, David Clark, mounted a campaign to history. Mr Dandy made his representations in destroy wasps nests around the city of Ararat. There February this year concerning a review he has been a great increase in the number of nests in understood was being conducted by the minister, recent years, and in the past two years Mr Clark has with the assistance of his parliamentary secretary, destroyed more than 220, mostly in his own time. the honourable member for Malvern in another place, Mr Robert Doyle. The review, as Mr Dandy The main concern is that Ararat is in the centre of a understood it, related to the proper training and significant agricultural area and probably the best education of the state's ambulance officers. wine growing area in Australia. A couple of attacks by wasps have occurred in the city of Ararat. An Mr Dandy, being typical of the committed and elderly woman wrote to me recently about being dedicated members of the profession, was anxious to badly bitten by wasps, and when I pulled up in find what had been the outcome of the review, given Daylesford to get petrol the other day they were the enormous pressures that the inadequate everywhere and attacked the windscreen of my car. Intergraph system places on the ambulance service. Unfortunately, inquiries of the department were less I gather the problem is not confined to Victoria. I than helpful. As the department could offer little understand some work on the problem has been assistance in this matter, I turned to the union for done both in South Australia and at the Keith advice. As usual, the union was well aware of the Tumbull Institute in Victoria, but apparently any issues affecting its members and was very form of biological control is a fair way off. informative about the review. The review is now well past its reporting date and has not been tabled I ask that the Minister for Conservation and Land in this place or released to the public. Management approach her federal colleague Senator Robert Hill, the Minister for the Environment, to see I ask the minister to table the report immediately or whether the problem can be approached nationally to explain to Mr Dandy, the ambulance officers and research undertaken to instigate some biological union and the Victorian people why the report control to get rid of these pests. cannot be produced. The ambulance system is in crisis. This government seeks to apportion blame for Rail: Werribee line this situation to groups and individuals themselves who are struggling with the incompetent system Hon. JEAN McLEAN (Melbourne West) - I raise corruptly forced upon them by this government. The for the attention of the Minister for Roads and Ports minister must table this report so that the as the representative of the Minister for Transport in community can be aware of the pressing need to another place an issue raised by a constituent of keep the skills and knowledge of the members of mine from Hoppers Crossing concerning the this vital service at world-class standard. Nothing extremely poor standard of train services to the less is good enough for the Victorian community. Werribee-Hoppers Crossing area.

European wasps As a daily user of the trains, he claims that the train service has become increasingly unreliable and that Hon. R. S. de FEGEL Y (Ballarat) - It is a delight there is graffiti and an awful stench of urine in the to rise and join my colleague Mr Hartigan in waiting areas of Hoppers Crossing station. He speaking on the adjournment debate. I cannot quite believes that is because the station is unmanned recall how long it has been since I last spoke on an most of the time. adjournment debate, but if honourable members read the Age they will see it was a damn long time My constituent gave some examples of the problems ago. he has had with trains. He said that on Monday, 10 February 1997 the 5.23 p.m. train from Flagstaff I raise for the attention of the Leader of the station was cancelled, and that on Wednesday, Government, who represents the Minister for 12 February 1997 trains were forced to stop at ADJOURN:\1ENT

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Laverton due to overhead wires coming down at Hon. BILL FORWOOD - This document, which Hoppers Crossing. He said that a bus shuttle service purports to be the minutes of a council meeting of was arranged, but that the buses came infrequently the Whittlesea City Council held on 22 April, is and that because the pick-ups were not supervised headed 'Notice of Motion No. 713' and has at the there was a risk that elderly people or children bottom 'page 208'. would be trampled on by the many people who were rushing to clamber on the few buses that did An honourable member interjected. arrive. He said he finally got home at 7.30 p.m. Hon. BILL FORWOOD - No, it is further north My constituent says that cancelled and late-running than Darebin. The document has the further heading trains are occurring much more frequently on his 'Council Resolution' and discusses an organisational line. Why could arrangements not be made for the status audit that was moved by Cr Merlino and V /Line diesel trains to Geelong to shuttle seconded by Cr Fry. In my view it is based on the passengers from Hoppers Crossing to Werribee? My local government association's demand that constituent also feels that police or PTC staff should organisational status reviews be done of various have been called to ensure that the bus shuttle, when councils. The document states: it had to be used, operated in an orderly manner. He also asked when train timetables for the Werribee That council resolve that an organisational status audit service will be reviewed to take into account the for the Whittlesea City Council be conducted for the increasing population of the Hoppers Crossing area? period December 1994 to March 1997 within the scope of the Local Government Act ... the audit is to include Whittlesea: status audit the impact of the municipal boundary changes and council restructure. Hon. BILL FORWOOD (Templestowe) - The matter I raise is for the Minister for Finance as the That is to be done according to some terms of representative of the Minister for Planning and Local reference, which I will go into briefly. The document Government in another place. further states:

As honourable members are aware, I have a fax '" that four expressions of interest be considered, machine in my office. I do not know why bits of namely: paper keep coming down my fax machine; I never McCahon and Parker know where they come from. All I can ever do is presume that the documents that arrive are accurate, Terry Bramham although sometimes they are not signed. Neil Pope and Associates Hon. T. C. Theophanous - Is this one signed? Hayes Glynn and Associates that the report be completed within six to eight weeks Hon. BILL FORWOOD - No, this one is not of the selection of the audit provider. signed, either. that council provide all necessary documentation to the Hon. T. C. Theophanous - You are bringing the audit provider. place into disrepute.

... that a maximum of $48 000 be set aside for the audit. Honourable members interjecting. According to the unsigned fax that came through - Hon. T. C. Theophanous - You might think it is I do not know where it came from - under the funny, but when 10 people in a row do it -- terms of reference of the organisational status audit-- Hon. G. R. Craige - You started it! Hon. T. C. Theophanous - Will you table it? The PRESIDENT - Order! I ask the house to settle down. I also remind Mr Forwood, and all Hon. BILL FORWOOD - I am happy to table it. other honourable members, that if they receive material that is unsourced and unsigned they should The PRESIDENT - Order! You can make it use it with some discretion. available. ADJOURNM ENT

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Hon. BILL FORWOOD - I will make it Without canvassing the issue too deeply I am sure available - here it is. The terms of reference of the the minister would acknowledge that, at least on the organisation status audit - I will not read them all, part of some people, there is a view that the but I think some really need to be placed on the interaction between commissioners and the record - under the heading 'Community community is not necessarily that which exists Development and Democracy' are to examine between elected councillors and the community. changes in service levels, including the economy, efficiency, effectiveness and equity of services; One of the issues that has been discussed in the methods used to establish service levels and service community regarding the future management of this design; status and scope of strategic plan[s] for facility is whether the installation of poker machines development of municipality; and community at the facility might contribute to its viability. It has consultation and community partnership practices been put to me that, given the family orientation of and levels. Under 'Financial Management', the terms the use of this centre and particularly the number of of reference include examination of the summary of young people who patronise the centre, it may well all the assets, liabilities and potential liabilities and be inappropriate that poker machines be installed, claims to which the council may be exposed; notwithstanding that they may make an economic significant movements in funds; significant changes contribution. to the capital works program; significant variations from budgets -- I request that the minister make representations to the Minister for Planning and Local Government The PRESIDENT - Order! Mr Forwood's time is seeking an assurance from Melton's commissioners up and I invite him to conclude his question. that there will be a substantial level of interaction between the commissioners and the community Hon. BILL FORWOOD - This is an about the future management of the wave pool. extraordinarily complicated document, which, according to the council resolution, will result in Workcover: impairment assessment asking what these people do for $48 000. One would have thought there should have been some proper Hon. D. T. W ALPOLE (Melbourne) - I raise a tendering process, that terms of reference should matter for the attention of the Minister for Finance in have been drawn up and that the contract should his capacity as the minister responsible for have been open for tender or a proper process Workcover. I understand that insurers under the followed under CCT guidelines for an extraordinary Accident Compensation Act 1985 have been audit like this to be undertaken. I ask the minister referring workers to medical specialists for both whether the tendering requirements are being physical and psychological assessment of followed in letting this most extraordinary contract. impairment in accordance with the amended section 91. I also understand that insurers have Melton: wave pool failed to request psychiatrists to investigate and report on whether any existing psychological injury Hon. PAT POWER (Jika Jika) - I raise with the occurred at the time of the physical injury or if it Minister for Finance, who is the representative in arose as a consequence of or secondary to the this place of the Minister for Planning and Local physical injury. Government, a matter involving the Shire of Melton. In that shire there is a very successful aquatic With that in mind, will the minister confirm that a recreational and community facility known as the number of authorised Workcover insurers have wave pool. It is quite an innovative centre and has made decisions to remove seriously injured workers been very strongly supported and patronised by the from the serious injury category on the basis of local community, especially young people. It discounting the psychological component, contains indoor and outdoor swimming areas and it irrespective of its relationship to the principal is called the wave pool as a consequence of a wave physical injury? If he does not have this information machine that creates waves in a particular area that to hand, will he seek it? is set aside. There are recreational and gymnasium facilities and also community meeting rooms. Melton: MHG Plastics

In the context of the Melton shire being managed by Hon. M. M. GOULD (Doutta Galla) - The commissioners, there is a need for the municipality matter I direct to the attention of the Minister for to address the ongoing management of this facility. Finance for referral to the Minister for Planning and ADJOURNMENT

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Local Government in another place relates to the while the review, as she understands it, is belief by Melton residents that commissioners have completed. I shall refer that matter to the minister in given away millions of dollars of ratepayers' money the other place. in the form of land and other benefits as sweeteners in return for jobs that may never eventuate. Mr Nguyen raised a matter regarding training and education of ambulance officers. There were two Hon. R. M. Hallam - Where's this? different components, the first being that it is factually incorrect to describe the ambulance service Hon. M. M. GOULD - In Melton. The as being corrupt, in crisis and not working, which commissioners have entered into an agreement. As were the words used. In fact, the ambulcmce service the financiers of this covert deal between Melton's is working very effectively. It continues to carry commissioners and MHG Plastics, Melton residents more citizens each year under the current should be entitled and demand to know how much management, and the government has established a this deal has cost their community. TIlis information board of people to assist that management. For the has persistently been denied to them by first time in a decade the ambulance service is now commissioners, calling into question their operating within its budget and is providing a accountability to the community they have been timely and good service. appointed to represent. One of the unfortunate aspects of the publicity of Hon. M. A. Birrell interjected. recent weeks is that these issues can sometimes become blurred in people's minds and they confuse Hon. M. M. GOULD - And the minister the distinction between the service provided today appointed the commissioners. I request the Minister and the historical perspective. The Metropolitan for Finance to ask the Minister for Planning and Ambulance Service is working very well indeed, and Local Government what were and continue to be the the reports on the operation of the computer-aided total financial arrangements entered into between dispatch system show that it is providing a service the Melton commissioners and MHG Plastics. Will which has not been available before. The teething the minister detail these arrangements so that the problems and hiccups that certainly existed when Melton community knows those details? the new technology was introduced have now been addressed. Responses I shall deal specifically with the problem of training Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (Minister for Industry, and education. It is true that, under the leadership of Science and Technology) - Mr de Fegely raised my parliamentary secretary, I established a task with me, as the representative in this place of the force to consider the issue of ambulance officers and Minister for Conservation and Land Management, training. It brought together a group of people who the European wasp problem in Ararat and, indeed, had skill and expertise in this area and who were to parts of the Western District. It is an issue of provide me with advice about the best way forward. considerable concern in a number of areas of The task force was not required to write a report, so Victoria, not the least of which is my own in the there is no written report that can be tabled. context of the infestation of European wasps in a However, I was advised that a separate ambulance number of old homes throughout my electorate, training facility should not continue to operate and which causes considerable consternation and health that the training of ambulance officers should be concerns. I am more than happy to convey transferred to the responSibility of a tertiary Mr de Fegely's interest in and concern about the institution. matter to the minister in another place. Negotiations are continuing, and I advise the house Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Minister for Health) - that at this stage it is anticipated that arrangements Mrs Hogg raised with me a matter for referral to the will be satisfactorily completed to enable the Minister for Youth and Community Services training of ambulance officers to be transferred to regarding Wiseman Youth Services, an agency of the Monash University. In the future ambulance officers Mission to Streets and Lanes, that provides a will be trained on exactly the same basis as other mediation service for people in the Glenroy area. She health professionals, doctors, and nurses. expressed concern that funding is finishing at the end of June and requested a continuation of the Hon. W. A. N. Hartigan interjected. funding at least until the end of the current year ADJOURNMENT

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Hon. R. I. KNOWLES - Absolutely. In the past am not sure what that constitutes, but I have to say the training for many of those professions was the that the commissioners in Melton have been training a person got on the job. Separate teaching spectacularly successful in the administration of that education was abandoned in the 1970s, separate municipality and I suggest that its standards have nursing training has been abandoned and it is now been very high. In any event, I will pass on the fairly generally accepted within the ambulance inquiry in the spirit in which it is offered and will service that this is the proper way forward. ask my colleague to comment.

It has not been possible to provide the sort of Mr Walpole raised with me the management of the information Mr Nguyen's constituent is seeking definition of serious injury with regard to because until there is a formal agreement that the Workcover. I will take time out to read carefully transfer will occur I run the risk of providing what he has put on the record because I am not sure misleading information. I hope the infonnation I I understood precisely what he was referring to. I have been able to provide tonight is helpful in will take it as a question on notice and will respond answering the inquiry of Mr Nguyen's constituent. to him in detail.

Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Minister for Finance) - Miss Gould also referred to the Shire of Melton and Mr Theophanous again raised the issue of the a particular arrangement with MHG Plastics. I do mayoral allowance awarded by the City of Darebin not pretend to understand the detail of what the and cited comments regarding alleged irregularities honourable member was putting to the chamber. in respect of the payment and usage of that mayoral allowance. He referred in particular to comments Hon. M. M. Gould - To let the community know ascribed to my colleague the Minister for Planning how much money they have spent doing that deal. and Local Government, which Mr Theophanous says misrepresent both him and the Mayor of Hon. R. M. HALLAM - I will take time out to Darebin. The request the honourable member then read the detail of what the honourable member is made is a bit strange because, as I understood it, he suggesting, and I will pass it on to the Minister for asked me to invite my colleague to repeat the Planning and Local Government. comments. Hon. G. R. CRAIGE (Minister for Roads and Hon. T. C. Theophanous - To pass on the Ports) - Mr Hartigan asked me to pass on to the complaint. Minister for Transport in another place a matter concerning the train service between Melbourne and Hon. R. M. HALLAM - I will pass on the Geelong. He specifically referred to the comment. It will be in Hansard, but I will pass it on. electrification of the current network to Werribee. However, for the honourable member to ask the He indicated that there may be some merit in minister to repeat the comment is a bit strange. In considering the extension of that electrification from any event, I will ask my colleague if he cares to Werribee to Geelong on the basis that Geelong is a repeat the comments that have been attributed to fast growing regional city with increasing him. employment opportunities because of its port and the growth of industry. As a result, greater demand Mr Forwood raised with me a document which he may be placed on the public transport network. says purports to be a message from the City of Whittlesea. He particularly referred to the He also referred to the truncation of the service at commissioning of an organisational status review. I the North Melbourne interchange. The interchange have not heard of this before. The honourable creates difficulties for Geelong and other country member asked me to have the Minister for Planning trains when entering the metropolitan system. My and Local Government check as to whether the understanding is that the trains are placed into a proper tendering process has been followed in that priority network and that the metropolitan trains are case, and I will pass on the inquiry. given a higher priority than those from the country. Therefore, metropolitan trains obviously get into the Mr Power referred to the wave pool in the Shire of network a lot quicker. Clearly that is an issue Melton and whether the installation of poker Mr Hartigan would like addressed. I will pass on machines was being considered at that site. He those issues to the Minister for Transport. asked that the commissioners undertake a substantial level of interaction with the community. I ADJOURN M ENT

646 COUNca Thursday, 1 May 1997

Mr Cover raised the issue of ex-servicemen Mrs McLean asked me to raise with the Minister for travelling on public transport on Anzac Day. He also Transport the train service to Hoppers Crossing and spoke about the visit of his colleague on the day. It is Werribee. She has received complaints from important to recognise the support that constituents in the area about the poor train service ex-servicemen and ex-servicewomen receive from and the stench of urine in the waiting room. She members of Parliament on both sides of the fence, claimed that that has come about because stations for which members deserve congratulations. When are urunanned. I would have thought Mrs McLean they were very young ex-servicemen and would have used the politically correct term of ex-servicewomen placed themselves in a position of 'unstaffed'!. ensuring that today we can all live comfortable and secure lives. Mr Cover spoke about the cost to Mrs McLean also referred to the unreliability of the ex-servicemen and women of travelling on Anzac train service and of cancelled trains being replaced Day and said they paid 30 per cent of the normal by buses. She suggested that the Minister for fare. Transport should consider using the Melbourne-Geelong diesel service instead of buses Hon. I. J. Cover - They pay 30 per cent off! to shuttle people between Hoppers Crossing and Werribee. She also suggested the timetable be Hon. G. R. CRAIGE - They pay 30 per cent less reviewed. I shall pass on those matters to the than the normal fare when travelling on public Minister for Transport. transport on Anzac Day so long as they can identify themselves as ex-servicemen or women. Mr Cover Motion agreed to. asks that the minister consider allowing ex-servicemen and ex-servicewomen to travel free of House adjourned 5.52 p.m. until Tuesday, 13 May. charge on Anzac Day. I will certainly pass that on to the minister. ROY AL ASSENT

Tuesday, 13 May 1997 COUNCIL 647

Tuesday, 13 May 1997 I have now received correspondence from Victoria Police concerning the investigation into the allegations of threat and intimidation made against Mr Theophanous and his brother. That investigation was undertaken by a detective senior constable of The PRESIDENT (Hon. B. A. Chamberlain) took the Protective Security Intelligence Group, who the chair at 2.34 p.m. and read the prayer. determined that there was insufficient evidence to support charges against the individual making the ROYAL ASSENT alleged threats. The investigation file was forwarded to the police legal adviser for assessment. That office Message read advising royal assent to: also advised that the file contained insufficient evidence to support charges against the individual. 6 May I am informed by the police that this concluded the Constitution and Parliamentary Committees involvement of Victoria Police in the investigation of (Amendment) Act this matter. As a result of the police investigation I have subsequently discussed this matter with Electricity Industry (Loy Yang B) Act Mr Speaker and we have agreed to lift the ban on the individual in question entering Parliament House, Gaming Acts (Further Amendment) Act and the matter is now closed.

Gaming No. 2 Act I wish to reiterate to the house that the principal obligation of Presiding Officers is to protect Health Services (Community Health Centres) members and staff in the discharge of their duties. Act That includes the need to protect members of Parliament from harassment and physical threats Heritage (Amendment) Act within the parliamentary buildings and their environs. The action I took last November was not Hire-Purchase (Amendment) Act taken lightly, but will be repeated if a similar circumstance is brought to my attention or that of 13 May MrSpeaker. Education (Further Amendment) Act

Land (Revocation of Miscellaneous QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE Reservations) Act

Office of the Regulator-General (Amendment) Workcover: incentive payments Act Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS (Jika Jika) -- Does PARLIAMENT HOUSE the Minister for Finance, who is responsible for Workcover, support the current practice of the Right of access Victorian Workcover AuthOrity of paying an incentive of $3500 to the insurance companies for The PRESIDENT - Order! The house will be every worker they manage to remove from weekly aware that in November last year I took action to benefit payments after the first 26 weeks? Can the ban a member of the public from entering minister explain how this incentive payment scheme Parliament House following representations from accords with the workers compensation principles the Leader of the Opposition, the Honourable Theo enunciated by his government? Theophanous, and written allegations which he made to Victoria Police. The house will recall that I Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Minister for Finance) - I took that action because I believed the matters raised am not familiar with the details of the payment with the police by Mr Theophanous concerning a schedule applicable to the agents under Workcover, former employee of his brother, but I do know and do not walk away from the fact Or Andrew Theophanous, were of a sufficiently that it is performance based. serious nature to warrant it. QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

648 COUNCil- Tuesday, 13 May 1997

Hon. T. C. Theophanous - So you don't know Hon. T. C. Theophanous - Teach them how to they are paying them $35OO? gamble at an early age.

Hon. R. M. HALLAM - As to the specifics of the Hon. R. M. HALLAM - Are you still upset you issues raised by Mr Theophanous, I will take advice weren't invited to the opening, Mr Theophanous? It and report back. is expected that about 30 to 40 per cent of the revenue generated by the casino will come from Crown Casino: opening international players. I acknowledge the amount of energy, effort and time that has gone into Hon. ANDREW BRIDESON (Waverley) - developing what is likely to be a highly lucrative Many people would agree with me that last week and specialised market. There is no doubt, and we Melbourne came of age. Will the Minister for should be proud of the fact, that the facilities being Gaming inform the house of how the new Crown offered by Crown are equal or superior to any other entertainment complex will benefit Victoria? facilities in the world.

Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Minister for Gaming) - It A point missed in some of the publicity surrounding would have been difficult for honourable members the opening of the centre is that the casino is also to miss the fact that last Thursday the Premier important in marketing Melbourne because the formally opened the new Crown entertainment international players and their families who will be complex at Southbank. That opening was a attracted represent the major international investors spectacular success. on the world stage. As a result of their becoming regular visitors to Crown, they will be made aware Crown has completed one of the largest casinos in of the many business opportunities available around the world; it will eventually accommodate Victoria. In all sincerity, we should not mind at all 350 gaming tables and 2500 electronic gaming what it was that attracted those people to our state machines, as the licence stipulates. It is expected that in the first place. They represent an enormous the revenue stream from the operation is likely to potential source of investment for Victoria. yield $138.4 million to the government in 1996-97. Those who have studied the details of the 1997-98 Other economic benefits include the 3500 jobs that budget recently introduced by the Treasurer will were made available to Victorians during the know the government expects that revenue stream construction of the centre. All who have visited the to increase to $174.4 million in that year. casino would have been proud of the way the 8000 young people who have found direct The revenue is funding our major institutions in employment there were turned out; I commend the preparation for the coming century and they will staff on that. In addition to the 8000 people incur not one cent of state debt. I remind honourable employed directly by Crown, further employment members that the key projects under that program will be generated by the leaseholders in the casino include the Melbourne Exhibition Centre at envelope. In the past few days I have made a Southbank, which cost the government about number of visits to the site. I have come away proud $129 million; the substantial renovation and of the people who are directly involved and of the reconstruction of the State Library of Victoria, with a opportunities made available to many young price tag of about $80 million; and the renovation of Victorians. I commend Crown on its efforts in that the National Gallery of Victoria which will cost regard. something similar - about $80 million. Already $250 million has been earmarked for the new I have heard criticism that the standards of service in Museum of Victoria in the Carlton Gardens - a the Crown complex are likely to have an inordinate brilliant outcome. impact on other businesses in the city. I have spent years in the retail industry and I find it strange for I pay tribute to the Premier and welcome the somebody involved in the industry or in competition allocation of funds from the Community Support for consumer dollars to complain about competition Fund, sourced from the gaming industry, which will because it is all part of business. In any event, Crown allow students from country Victoria to visit, at a has set a new benchmark in standards of service; it minimum cost, some of our best cultural facilities. behoves other businesses in our city to acknowledge That is a most important program. that benchmark and lift their game.

Hon. T. C. Theophanous interjected. QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

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Hon. R. M. HALLAM - I know the morning and evening peak periods, with about Mr Theophanous is still smarting because he did not 50 000 vehicles passing daily through the get an invitation to the opening. I am sure intersection. management would make him welcome if he cares to visit the casino. He might then understand my The project involves the upgrading of a four-lane comments. Like many members of this house, I undivided road to a six-lane divided road. The welcome the opening of the new Crown Casino. I signals at the two major intersections will also be wish the management and staff every success in the upgraded. These works are in addition to works coming years. already under way in Grimshaw Street, Greensborough, and other minor works along Intergraph: ambulance contract Rosanna Road. They will greatly alleviate congestion and reduce travel times along the route between the Hon. M. M. GOULD (Doutta Galla) - My Eastern Freeway and the Metropolitan Ring Road at question is directed to the Minister for Health. Greensborough. Detailed designs have been Mr Jim Taylor, the chief executive of Intergraph completed and land acquisition and the relocation of America, has said Mr Grant Griffiths was employed services such as gas and electricity will occur in as chief executive officer of Intergraph in Australia 1997-98. The project is expected to be completed in because of his knowledge of emergency services and 1999. his acceptability to the government. Why did the government not indicate to Intergraph America that This is a part of the state government's commitment Grant Griffiths was not acceptable given that he had to and recognition of the changing demographics of repeatedly breached tender guidelines during his Melbourne. In particular, it is part of the Outer work at the ambulance service, had signed a part 10 Metropolitan Arterial Roads Improvement arrangement under bankruptcy legislation and had program - a state government initiative. During previously been associated with a number of other 1997-98 the state government will start work on business failures? 15 high-profile projects in the metropolitan area valued at $41 million and will continue work on Hon. R.1. KNOWLES (Minister for Health) - I another 10 projects already under way. have essentially answered those questions in the past. As soon as the government became aware of Workcover: common-law access the breaches in government guidelines, it took appropriate action. It is still awaiting the results of Hon. D. A. NARDELLA (Melbourne North) - the police inquiry. Will the Minister for Finance, who is the minister responsible for Workcover, advise the house Greensborough Highway, Rosanna whether a committee that includes government backbenchers is examining the possibility of further Hon. BILL FORWOOD (Templestowe) - Will changes to Workcover, including the possible the .Minister for Roads and Ports tell the house of further narrowing of workers' access to recent decisions to upgrade the intersection of common-law claims, and will he rule out any further Greensborough Highway, Lower Plenty Road and narrowing of workers' access to common law? Rosanna Road, Rosanna? Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Minister for Finance) - I Hon. G. R. CRAIGE (Minister for Roads and thank Mr Nardella for his question. I am quite Ports) - I am pleased to announce that the relaxed about reporting on the work undertaken by government has allocated $5.5 million to upgrade a backbench committee. Given the enormousness of the link between Rosanna Road, Lower Plenty Road the subject and the range of sensitive issues and the Greensborough Highway. I commend the involved, it was at my instigation that an invitation efforts members of Parliament in that region, in was extended to all members of the coalition to particular Mr Forwood and Mr Furletti, have made become involved in a review of workers towards achieving something the Labor Party failed compensation. In fact, I am pleased to tell the house to do. The section of Greensborough Highway and that something like 30 members of the coalition Lower Plenty Road between Finlayson Street and attended the first meeting. I recollect that some 20 of Jones Crescent will be increased from four lanes to those members volunteered to become involved in six lanes. Those who travel that area know only too an investigative review of workers compensation. well the congestion that has occurred for many years. That congestion progressively worsens during QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

650 COUNCIL Tuesday, 13 May 1997

I have not been involved in the review process, but I Groups all over Victoria have embraced the Streetlife pay tribute to the work of that committee because I approach. It is certainly a way of consolidating the know it has met for almost the entire afternoon each efforts of local communities, particularly as it is on a Tuesday for the past several weeks. That is quite a matched funding basis between the government and hectic commitment. As it happens, I have not yet participants. I am also pleased to advise that all received the outcome of that investigation, but I look regions in Victoria, metropolitan and rural, were forward to the report, which I am led to believe covered, with more than 40 per cent of the funding covers access to common law among other issues. going into country areas.

State Development: Streetlife program Grants under the Streetlife program have a particular benefit where groups seek specialist Hon. M. T. LUCKINS (Waverley) - Will the advice as a result of the funding. I, and I am sure all Minister for Industry, Science and Technology honourable members, wish the groups every provide the house with details of the government's success. The program is part of our effort to boost new initiative for local commercial and shopping retail communities, particularly small businesses. precincts? Intergraph: BEST contract Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (Minister for Industry, Science and Technology) - I thank Mrs Luckins for Hon. D. T. WALPOLE (Melbourne) - I refer the her question and I am delighted to inform the house Minister for Health to the fact that at the same time that the government has continued to take a as Grant Griffiths was employed by the pro-active stance in reinvigorating local commercial Metropolitan Ambulance Service to advise on the and retail centres in both suburban and rural areas. ambulance service contract with Intergraph, he was also being paid by Intergraph to help prepare its The Streetlife initiative, which I formally launched in tender submission for the joint emergency services Dandenong, will provide funding of $1 million over dispatching contract. Will the government now a period of two years. The program was successfully admit that Intergraph improperly covered up the piloted in 1996 and is aimed at aSSisting our retail fact that it had someone on the inside working for it centres, working together as a team with the local during the BEST tender process, which gave it the retailers and often with local government, to support inside running on this $160 million contract? the growth and liveliness of those areas. Hon. R.1. KNOWLES (Minister for Health) - I Streetlife directly assists small businesses, and in have nothing further to add to what I have already particular retailers, and the key outcome is local told the house: we have already referred matters to employment and economic activity. the police for investigation, and I will not pre-empt their findings. I am pleased that the retail sector in Victoria continues to show employment growth. It certainly Women's health provides many young people with their first jobs. Hon. SUE WILDING (Chelsea) - Will the It was my pleasure to be in Dandenong last week to Minister for Health advise the house of recent announce funding for the program. Dandenong was government initiatives to improve services for one of the 37 successful applicants. In fact, more women's health in Victoria? than 100 projects will be put in place by those successful applicants and they will assist retail Hon. R.1. KNOWLES (Minister for Health)­ centres. Strong applications were received for Mr President, -- funding and I was very pleased that the government was able to assist those groups. Honourable members interjecting.

Specific strategies that the local groups can now Hon. R. I. KNOWLES - Ask questions relevant implement as a result of the funding include to my portfolio and you will get them! improved local coordination; appointment of coordinators; planning, marketing and promotions; The PRESIDENT - Order! I suggest the house regional cooperation; tourism and heritage settle down and allow the minister to answer. initiatives; and improved training and quality assurance. QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE

Tuesday, 13 May 1997 COUNCIL 651

Hon. R. I. KNOWLES - I thank Mrs Wilding for The fourth priority is to ensure that services are her question. She has taken a particular interest in delivered in a way that is responsive to the needs of women's health and serves on the Ministerial older women. A significant number of women who Advisory Council on Women's Health. Last use mental health services are over the age of 65. The Thursday I had the pleasure of releasing two fifth priority is to respond to the needs of women reports, one of which referred to the status of who are carers of people with mental illnesses. It is a women's health. As its title, 'First report', indicates, fact that most such carers are women. The sixth it is the first time a document has been published on priority is to increase the participation of women in the status of women's health in this state. It has been psychiatric disability support services. I indicated an interesting exercise because it has highlighted earlier that a significantly higher number of women areas where available data is inadequate. It is not a than men have mental illnesses and require access to bad starting point to enable us to rectify that lack of services, yet women are underrepresented among data into the future. those who use psychiatric disability support services.

The report recognises significant improvements that I have allocated $600 000 to ensure that the report is have been made over the past 20 years, although at implemented and those six priority areas are given the same time it highlights areas where much can effect to through mental health services. I am yet be done. I am confident the report will be of confident that the two reports will make a significant value to planners and researchers and to providers contribution to an increase in community and women in particular and will establish a starting understanding and awareness of mental health base. The government intends to release subsequent issues and that the actions the government has taken reports that will map the changing status of will lead to a significant improvement in the women's health in this state. operation of those services.

At the same time I released a report entitled Eastern Freeway: extension Victoria's Mental Health Service - Tailoring Services to Meet the Needs of Women. I recently advised the Hon. P AT POWER (Jika Jika) - Will the Minister house of significant gains that have been made in the for Roads and Ports confirm that the World Health structure and delivery of mental health services in Organisation has established 58 dB(A) as a safe noise Victoria. Women are very significant users of mental level target and assure the house that noise levels on health services. Unfortunately the incidence of the Eastern Freeway extension will not exceed the mental illness is higher among women than among world health safety standard? men and some gender-specific issues need to be addressed in the delivery of those services. The Hon. G. R. CRAIGE (Minister for Roads and report highlights six key areas in which it is Ports) - Victoria is setting world standards in this important for mental health services to focus on the area and the standards of its noise abatement particular needs of women, and those areas have programs are the highest in Australia. Although become priority areas for services. 58 dB (A) is the recommendation of the World Health Organisation, I am sure Mr Power has read the The first priority is to provide services that are document fully and is aware of what is taken into responsive to the needs of women who are parents account in that level and that in certain and suffering from mental illness. Often in the past circumstances where noise is a direct problem in health services have not recognised the additional residential areas Victoria has set levels below the family responsibilities many women carry and have WHO recommendation. not provided services appropriate to their needs. The second priority is to provide services that are I assure Mr Power that in upgrading the road in responsive to the needs of women with experience question to freeway status the current government, of sexual assault. The physical and emotional unlike the previous Labor government, which built legacies of such experiences can significantly affect arterial roads with traffic lights along them through women who also suffer from mental illness. The the midst of residential areas, has taken into account third priority is to ensure that hospital and all appropriate issues, including noise and other residential services provide women with adequate environmental issues. The government has a very safety and privacy. The report found that women clear charter in respect of the Eastern Freeway: to can feel very vulnerable in services and need access complete it first to Springvale Road and then to private space. through to Ringwood. The government will use all QUESTIONS ON NOTICE

652 COUNCIL Tuesday, 13 May 1997 the available technology to meet the noise QUESTIONS ON NOTICE requirements it has set in place in the state. Answers Tourism: Aboriginal strategy Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Minister for Health) - By Hon. R. J. H. WELLS (Eumemmerring) - Will leave, I move: the Minister for Tourism advise the house of developments in Koori tourism in Victoria involving That so much of the standing orders as require answers Aboriginal Victorians? to questions on notice to be delivered verbally in the house be suspended for the sitting of the Council this Hon. LOUISE ASHER (Minister for Tourism) - I day and that the answers enumerated be incozporated thank Dr Wells for his interest in the importance of in Hansard. Koori tourism to Victoria. As all honourable members would know, the government has focused I shall read out the numbers of the questions that very strongly on Aboriginal tourism in Victoria. have been answered: Tourism Victoria's strategic business plan for the period 1997 to 2001 singles out Aboriginal tourism 1006,1050,1051, 1054, 1174, 1197, 1205, 1213, 1221, as an area of particular product strength for the 1229,1237, 1285, 1286, 1288 and 1289. state. It has the potential to increase yield from visitors, enhance visitor experiences and, most Motion agreed to. importantly, increase economic benefits to Aboriginal communities from tourism. SCRUTINY OF ACTS AND REGULATIONS COMMITTEE Tourism Victoria has set a number of criteria for a range of Aboriginal tourism products, including Alert Digest No. 4 ventures managed or operated partly or in full by Aboriginal people, the interpretation of products or Hon. P. A. KATSAMBANIS (Monash) presented attractions devised and controlled by Aboriginal Alert Digest No. 4 of 1997, together with an people, authentic products endorsed by the appendix. Aboriginal community, and an economically viable tourism industry for the Aboriginal community. Laid on table.

Honourable members will be pleased to note that Ordered to be printed. Tourism Victoria is currently producing a draft strategy that will cover research, product Subordinate legislation development, marketing, and education and awareness. The government has a very strong view Hon. P. A. KATSAMBANIS (Monash) presented that the Aboriginal community should benefit from report on subordinate legislation concerning the economic spin-offs of tourism, as do all others in statutory rules series 1995 and 1996, together with the community. appendices.

A national Aboriginal tourism strategy has been Laid on table. devised by my federal ministerial colleague in conjunction with the state ministers. Victoria will be Ordered that report and appendices be printed. a party to the agreement, and Tourism Victoria's strategy will be integrated into the government's PAPERS Aboriginal affairs policy at the invitation of the Minister responsible for Aboriginal Affairs in Laid on table by Oerk: another place, Mrs Henderson. Chiropodists Registration Board - Report, 1996. I am delighted by the potential for Aboriginal tourism. Not only will we achieve good visitor Crown Land (Reserves) Act 1978 - Minister's Order of experiences in Victoria, but there will also be very 12 April 1997 giving approval to granting of lease at positive economic spin-offs for the Aboriginal Momington. community as a result of the marketing of a Koori tourism product. UPPER YARRA VALLEY AND DANDENONG RANGES REGIONAL STRATEGY PLAN

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Defence Reserves Re-Employment Board - Minister Monash Planning Scheme - Amendment Ll6. for Fair Trading's report of receipt of 1996 Annual Rodney Planning Scheme - Amendments L97 Report. and LlO1. Interpretation of Legislation Act 1984 - Notices Surf Coast Planning Scheme - Amendment RL38. pursuant to section 32(3)(a) in relation to Statutory Rule Swan Hill (Shire) Planning Scheme - Amendment No. 148/1996 and No. 11/1997. L24. La Trobe University - Report, 1996. Victoria - State Section Planning Scheme - Amendments 556 and SRLS. Melbourne City Link Act 1995 - Warragul Planning Scheme - Amendment L58. Orders in Council of 22 April 1997, varying the Whitehorse Planning Scheme - Amendment L17. project area of land pursuant to section 8(4) of the Act. Whittlesea Planning Scheme - Amendment L149. Statement of Variation No. 3/1997 to the Yarra Ranges Planning Scheme - Amendments Melbourne City Link Project Agreement, 30 April L50and L61. 1997, pursuant to section 15(2) of the Act. Prince Henry's Institute of Medical Research - Report, Melbourne Sports and Aquatic Centre Trust­ 1996. Minister's report of 8 May 1997 of failure of Trust Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology - Report, to submit 1995-96 annual report to him within the 1996. prescribed period and the reasons therefor. Minister for Sport's report of receipt of 1995-96 Proclamations of His Excellency the Governor in Annual Report. Council fixing operative dates in respect of the following Acts: Melbourne University - Report, 1996. Electricity Industry (Loy Yang B) Act 1997 - Ombudsman- Remaining provisions - 8 May 1997 (Gazette No. G18, 8 Interim Report on Operation Bart - Investigation May 1997). of Allegations against Police in Relation to the Shutter Allocation System, April 1997. National Australia Bank and Bank of New Zealand Act 1997 - Remaining provisions -1 May 1997 (Gazette Report on Investigation into Complaint by a No. G17, 1 May 1997). Chiropractor against the Chiropractors and Osteopaths Registration Board, April 1997. UPPER YARRA VALLEY AND Planning and Environment Act 1987 - Notices of DANDENONG RANGES REGIONAL Approval of the following amendments to planning STRATEGY PLAN schemes: Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Minister for Finance) - I Alberton Planning Scheme - Amendment L45. move: Ballarat Planning Scheme - Amendments Ll8 and L21. That pursuant to section 46D(1)(c) of the Planning and Environment Act 1987, amendments nos 97, 98,99 Frankston Planning Scheme - Amendment L96. and 100 to the Upper Yarra Valley and Dandenong Geelong - Greater Geelong - Planning Ranges Regional Strategy Plan be approved. Scheme - Amendments R194 and R198. Hon. PAT POWER Uika Jika) - The opposition Glen Eira Planning Scheme - Amendment Ll2. does not support the motion. During the committee Golden Plains Planning Scheme - Amendment stage I will seek to move an amendment that visits RL7. one of the opposition's special concerns. Hepburn Planning Scheme - Amendment L3. Hon. P. R. Hall interjected. Melbourne Planning Scheme - Amendments L245 and L260. Hon. PAT POWER - I thank the minister for his assistance. This is the second time the government UPPER YARRA VALLEY AND DANDENONG RANGES REGIONAL STRATEGY PLAN

654 COUNCn.. Tuesday, 13 May 1997 has introduced amendments to an act of Parliament comment particularly in relation to amendment 97. that contradict the act's intention. As was the case The affected land in this case was formerly part of a when we debated legislation last year, we need to township zone under the local planning scheme. It understand that we are slowly diluting the was subdivided under the zone provisions protection that previous governments have put into into 17 lots. The first stage of nine lots was place in respect to the Upper Yarra and Dandenong completed and the permit has lapsed for the second Ranges Regional Strategy Plan. It is important to stage of eight lots. Under amendment 29 to the understand that the Hamer, Cain and Kimer regional strategy plan the land was put into a governments had strong community support for the landscape living zone with a 2-hectare minimum strategy plan. subdivision size. Between one and two lots would now be permitted but the owner seeks three. This In those instances a bipartisan policy insisted on the difference is minor but the process followed is of protection of the Upper Yarra Valley and concern. The landowner went directly to the Dandenong Ranges. Until the Kennett government minister - and this is the minister who has warned came into office no minister for planning had used councils against interfering in planning matters that cumulative and incremental deregulation. are their legitimate concern under the Planning and Environment Act. I comment particularly on amendments 97, 98, 99 and 100. The four proposed amendments to the Once again the minister has been prepared to Upper Yarra Valley and Dandenong Ranges interfere in a minor local matter. He ought to be Regional Strategy Plan are not as serious a set of concerning himself with policies and issues of proposed changes as the first group introduced in statewide importance, but he cannot keep his fingers 1995. I have already referred to that debate. out of minor local issues. The opposition argues However, they raise the issue of the credibility of the strongly that these issues should be left to local government and important planning issues. authorities to resolve.

The government's credibility on land use planning is The minister referred the matter to his technical again in question. The government made advisory committee. The amendments were commitments to protect the Upper Yarra Valley and advertised and adjoining owners were notified, but Dandenong Ranges when it introduced the Planning the rest of the planning process was subverted by Authorities Repeal Bill. This is the second time this the minister. It is now subject to amendment U8 to government has introduced amendments to that act chapter 5 of the local section of the Yarra Ranges which, as I indicated earlier, contradict the intention Planning Scheme. The opposition will not oppose of the act. amendment 97.

These latest proposed amendments raise three Amendment 98 allows for the inclusion of an important planning issues. As I have already additional lot - it is currently in a rural zone - in mentioned, the first is the continued use of the restructure of an old and inappropriate incremental amendments to strategy plans which in subdivision. Amendment L57 to the local section - themselves do not significantly change the quality of chapter 3, governing the Healesville district - of the local environments but which contribute to the Yarra Ranges Planning Scheme was exhibited. The cumulative degradation of a significant region - the proposal is supported by the shire, and the Upper Yarra Valley and Dandenong Ranges. As I opposition does not oppose it. have argued, no minister has ever used annual incremental planning amendments to planning Amendment 99 seeks to allow the subdivision of a schemes. No minister has ever failed so significantly 3.5-hectare lot into two lots, contrary to the strategy to understand the cumulative effects of such plan and planning scheme. Under the planning incremental action. scheme the land is zoned rural residential, with a minimum subdivision size of 4 hectares. The The second issue is public process. One of the strategy plan designated the land as a landscape amendments repeats the high-handed approach living 3 policy area with the same density favoured by this minister in introducing change to requirement. There are two houses on the land. The land use without public consultation. The third issue proposal was exhibited under amendment L42 to the is the continued misuse by the minister of the Lilydale chapter of the Yarra Ranges Planning criterion of hardship as a reason for allowing Scheme, and no submissions were received. It is subdivision contrary to zone requirements. I UPPER YARRA VALLEY AND DANDENONG RANGES REGIONAL STRATEGY PLAN

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supported by the Yarra Ranges council, and the Hon. PAT POWER - No. opposition will not oppose it. Hon. G. R. Craige - How do you know the case? The opposition is particularly concerned about amendment 100. It proposes to subdivide a Hon. PAT POWER - I have visited the area. The l7.3-hectare lot in two. The land is located in a policy minister constantly misuses the hardship criterion. area designated rural 2 under the strategy plan. The As we said when he introduced the last amendments policy area has a minimum lot size of 40 hectares. to the act, it is wrong. The opposition strongly holds Amendment L43 to the Upper Yarra chapter of the the view that there are alternative remedies to Yarra Ranges Planning Scheme was exhibited and overcome the situation where rural businesses have no responses were received. The property has two difficulty generating income. I remind honourable houses on it. The second house was established as a members that the piece of land we are talking about manager's residence for a plant nursery on the land. is already less than one-half the size of that It was approved under the Upper Yarra Planning recommended in the plan. Scheme. The regional strategy plan would also allow a second house for that purpose. Hon. G. R. Craige - You said we were misusing the hardship of these people. The issue is about whether a separate lot should be created for the second house. The strategy plan Hon. PAT POWER - The government intends to policy area seeks to provide for broad-scale support the minister's intervention in proposing that agricultural and rural uses and to protect landscape the lot size be one-quarter of that recommended in and environmental features. Having a manager's the plan. I take up the challenge issued by residence as a second house on the one existing title government members that the opposition is not is consistent with this objective. However, prepared to recognise hardship. The question is not subdividing the lot in two is not consistent with the whether a hardship exists but what the solution is. policy area's objectives. The lot is already under The opposition dearly believes there are solutions one-half the minimum lot size. other than this which address the issue of hardship but which sympathetically acknowledge, embrace The creation of separate lots to provide separate and support the tenets of the regional strategy plan. titles for houses which were originally created as residences for managers of rural industries is a The opposition rejects unequivocally the notion that constant problem in rural areas. It is a de facto it is good government to allow a piece of land that is mechanism providing for subdivisions which already one-half the size of that recommended in the contradict subdivision requirements. The opposition strategy plan to be subdivided so that it becomes argues that this case grossly contradicts those one-quarter of the recommended size. There are requirements by creating a lot that is under the other, more desirable solutions that would support minimum size. At the moment the lot is half the size the strategy plan, acknowledge the hardship that designated in the plan; the proposal would make it exists, and represent a better decision. one-quarter the designated size. For many years successive governments and the The reason given for the amendment is basically one community have supported the protection of the of hardship - that is, insufficient income is planning and environmental sensitivities in the generated from the plant nursery. The opposition important but vulnerable Dandenong Ranges and argues that there are other remedies for this sort of Yarra Valley. There is an incredibly strong problem. One common remedy is to increase the size commitment to and local support for the regional of the land and not permanently remove it from strategy plan, which was sponsored by the Hamer production through subdivision; another is to government and which has been supported by examine alternative rural uses. In our view, the successive governments. It is not a question of minister constantly misuses the hardship criterion. whether specific issues must be addressed from time to time; it is a question of how particular issues Hon. G. R. Craige - Do you know the case? should be dealt with consistent with the spirit and intent of the regional strategy plan. Hon. PAT POWER - Yes. The opposition does not support either the Hon. G. R. Craige - So you have personally involvement of the Minister for Planning and Local spoken to the people involved? Government, as has been his habit, or the UPPER YARRA VALLEY AND DANDENONG RANGES REGIONAL STRATEGY PLAN

656 COUNCIL Tuesday, 13 May 1997 application of the hardship criterion in the way subdivision in Greenidge Court, Wesburn, which proposed by amendment 100. The opposition's view was permitted to be subdivided into 17 lots. I note is not based on whether there is hardship or whether that 9 lots have already been created. The provisions there is a need for some solution. Rather, it rejects of the previous permit, which has now expired, will the solution being proposed by the government and allow a further 8 lots to be created, and this process argues that there are better solutions which will result in the creation of another 3. It represents accommodate hardship and which are consistent the consolidation of Greenidge Court rather than the with the spirit of the regional strategy plan. development expected and allowed under the planning permit. To emphasise the opposition's concern about amendment 100, I will now move an amendment to I do not need to discuss the other amendments that the minister's motion. I move that: are not opposed by the opposition. Members opposite are concerned about a development in " 99 and 100' be omitted with the view of inserting in Woori Yallock. I do not think Mr Power's argument place thereof 'and 99'. can be substantiated. Apart from anything else, his spurious comments about the intervention of the Hon. B. N. ATKINSON (Koonung) - I support minister and a misuse of power should be the motion and reject the amendment moved by considered in light of the council's proposal of and Mr Power. The house is being asked to amend the support for the amendment. The minister did not Upper Yarra Valley and Dandenong Ranges decide to take up the amendment; the proposal came Regional Strategy Plan. Mr Power says the area is from the council, itself. under threat, but under the government's process amendments to the plan have been introduced from As Mr Power says, the amendment involves the time to time to preserve the integrity of this subdivision of land that is smaller than that important part of Melbourne. Similar comments permitted under the planning scheme. The land in were made when previous amendments were question fronts the Warburton Highway. Although debated in this place. The government's position has Mr Power said hardship was the key criterion used not changed. It maintains its commitment to the by the minister and, presumably, by the government special characteristics of the Yarra Valley and the to determine the suitability of the amendment, it is Dandenong Ranges, which people believe are not a criterion that the government uses in assessing important. developments.

The house may not be aware that three of the four In other words, the government looks to other issues amendments have gone through a process initiated, and circumstances relating to strategy plans. In this supported and approved by the Yarra Ranges Shire case not only does the size of the block not conform Council. The amendment moved by Mr Power with what is allowed under the planning scheme, would delete amendment 100, even though it has but the pattern of subdivision in and around the been considered and approved by the council and land allows for smaller blocks than this l7.3-hectare been the subject of public consultation. That process block - and considerably smaller than the hardly represents an act of intervention or an abuse 40-hectare blocks that are expected further back of the minister's power. Rather, it has been laid from the highway. down in legislation to enable exceptional provisions or amendments to planning schemes to be The house should be assured that to the south, north considered. and east across the highway the subdivision pattern allows for much smaller block sizes than the block The opposition does not oppose the amendments which the amendment allows to be subdivided into prepared by the Minister for Planning and Local two lots. After the subdivision the main block will Government, which were examined by a technical still be considerably larger than most of the other review committee and which adjoining landowners blocks in the area in and around the Warburton were notified of. There was one lodged submission, Highway. which was commented on by the council. All four amendments are supported by the council. I accept that further back to the west the blocks start to become much larger and, in doing so, start to The minister's amendment 97, which is not opposed realise the ambition of the government and most by the opposition, is important because it approves people in the Yarra Valley and Dandenong the consolidation of land. It involves an old Ranges - namely, the creation of larger allotments UPPER YARRA VALLEY AND DANDENONG RANGES REGIONAL STRATEGY PLAN

Tuesday. 13 May 1997 COUNCIL 657 capable of sustaining economic activity and the farm needing to be addressed by the plaruting authorities uses associated with this important part of in the first instance, and, in the second, by the Melbourne. Given the sizes of the other blocks to the minister and the house. east, south and north, and given the proximity of this block to the town of Woori Yallock, this is not Nonetheless, the government has found it necessary just a matter of hardship for the owners. The to bring the four amendments before the house question is about whether it would be unduly today. They should all be supported because they onerous to require the owners to persist with a block are appropriate. They have all been subjected to of the current size or to pursue some other proper scrutiny by the local community, including mechanism involving its consolidation with another the amendment rejected by the opposition. I ask the block. There is no suggestion that that is feasible. house to support the motion moved by the minister The council, which is particularly vigilant in and to reject the amendment. protecting the planning scheme in that area, will have looked at those issues. Hon. ROSEMARY V ARTY (Silvan) - I support the motion and reject the amendment. Today we I assure the house, as I said at the outset, that the have heard the opposition - the same was true in government remains committed to the area and to the other house - arguing that amendments such as the integrity of the plaruting scheme. Some this will bring about the destruction of the exceptions have been brought to the attention of the Dandenongs. That is absolute rubbish. The sorts of house, none of which creates a precedent. Each has amendments we are looking at today rectify run the gauntlet of public scrutiny; each has been problems that to a large extent arose in the early through a process that ensures amendments are 1960s. Those of us who have lived in the area for warranted, desirable and do not have adverse many years - I claim broad ownership of the whole impacts on the communities of or the plaruting area given that my family has lived there ever since scheme that applies in the Upper Yarra Valley and land was taken up in the 1880s - were concerned the Dandenong Ranges. about what was happening to the area in the 1960s and 1970s, when many inappropriate land uses and From that point of view, none of the amendments subdivisions were occurring. intensifies the use of any of the blocks involved. In a couple of cases they reduce current entitlements or The Upper Yarra Valley and Dandenong Ranges expected outcomes. A couple of the amendments Authority and the plaruting provisions were put in attempt to achieve some consolidation rather than place at that time; but as honourable members an intensification of the uses associated with the know, in 1994 the house repealed the provisions. particular amendment to which the opposition They were incorporated into more general planning objects. provisions, with the proviso that any changes to the Upper Yarra Valley and Dandenong Ranges The changes take into account a range of issues, not Regional Strategy Plan had to be considered by this simply the issue of hardship mentioned by house. We did that in good faith, believing it was Mr Power. I dismiss categorically any suggestion appropriate that any changes, whether they rectified that this represents an unwarranted intervention by anomalies, preserved and enhanced the integrity of the Minister for Plaruting and Local Government, the area, or related to hardship proviSions, should be because each of the amendments has been through a discussed and agreed to by the house. properly constituted process, especially the one that is opposed by the opposition. I note the opposition It was nonsensical of Mr Power to reiterate the supports three of the amendments at any rate, suggestions made in the other place that the notwithstanding the comments made today. amendments will in some way lead to the However, the amendment it opposes has been destruction of the Dandenong Ranges and the Yarra approved by the council and has been the subject of Valley. We are committed to protecting the ranges proper consultation, as expected under both the act and the valley. That was an election commitment in and the plaruting scheme. 1996, and it has subsequently been reinforced, as the amendments demonstrate. Like the Minister for Plaruting and Local Government, I too hope the Victorian plaruting I will deal with each of the amendments to point out prOvisions, which require all councils to look at their how ludicrous the opposition's argument is. The planning schemes and address any anomalies that first relates to amendment 97 to the strategy plan, exist, will result in fewer exceptions to the rule which is amendment 48 to the Yarra Ranges scheme. UPPER YARRA VALLEY AND DANDENONG RANGES REGIONAL STRATEGY PLAN

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It concerns land at Wesbum, which is between properties at the eastern edge of Mount Evelyn you Woori Yallock and Launching Place. gradually reach some of the rural areas and then enter intensive horticultural areas in Silvan. The area Hon. Pat Power - A beautiful part of the world. is in Leggett Drive off Clegg Road, which is the connecting road between Wandin and Hon. ROSEMARY VARTY - Yes, of course it is; Mount Evelyn. The land backs onto the old railway and because I happen to live in the general area, I line and is now known as the rail trail. know it very well. Mr Power said that as though I would not know it, and I take exception to the Already two houses have been built on the proposed implication. lots. It is not as though the proposal seeks to subdivide and allow additional buildings on the The original permit provided for the first stage of a property. The argument put by the opposition about subdivision into nine lots. The second part of the increased density of residences does not hold up. Its permit, with which the house is now dealing, would argument seems to be that the lot sizes do not accord have seen eight lots created. That permit has now with the minimum size specifications in the lapsed. planning scheme. Anomalies will always exist about various proposals; this is only one anomaly. The The plan, the subject of this debate, provides for opposition is also concerned about land at Woori three allotments; yet the opposition suggests the Yallock. government is changing the uses and increasing the density of the area. The government is simply There is no way anyone could suggest the proposal attempting to restructure an inappropriate is inappropriate. Instead of simply saying it does not subdivision. I cannot understand how the oppose the plan the opposition should regard this as opposition can argue that something bad is now a sensible solution in an area that is, by and large, happening. The subdivision was allowed under the urban. But, no, the opposition says it does not previous planning scheme. Now that scheme is oppose the plan but it will not give credit to the inappropriate and that is why the area should be strategy plan proposals which make a lot of sense. reduced from eight to three lots. The minister The opposition does not seem to be able to apply referred this proposal to a technical advisory anything sensibly. It does not appear to understand committee, which recommended that the proposed that the process has been established to preserve and subdivision was appropriate and suggested the enhance the integrity of the area and to send a amendment should be incorporated into the strategy message that inappropriate old subdivisions will be plan. restructured. That concept applies to two of the proposals. I refer to amendment no. 98, which relates to an old subdivision. Some of that plan was implemented in The opposition has moved a reasoned amendment the 1880s. It consisted of 50 parcels of land with a about amendment no. 100 - that is, amendment L43 total area of 154 hectares. Fortunately, under the of the Yarra Ranges Planning Scheme - on the building covenants that have applied under the highway at Woori Yallock. I can see that property Upper Yarra Valley and Dandenong Ranges from my home. It is nonsense for the opposition to Strategy Plan we have been able to prevent houses suggest the government is subdividing broad-scale being built on those lots. Now it is proposed to agricultural land. restructure that subdivision and to reduce the area from 50 to 8 lots. I thought the opposition would Hon. D. A. Nardella interjected. have welcomed the proposal. Sure, it says it does not oppose it, but it should do more because the plan Hon. ROSEMARY V ARTY - I did not say I live carries out the intentions of our legislative across the road; I look across to the property. That is proposals - that is, to ensure no inappropriate different from saying I live across the road, development occurs and that more houses cannot be Mr Nardella. In fact, the plot is probably built in areas deemed to be inappropriate. 6 kilometres across the valley from my home. Amendment no. 98 brings about the restructure of an inappropriate and old subdivision. Hon. D. A. Nardella - Sorry.

Amendment no. 99 is in Mount Evelyn. Anyone who Hon. ROSEMARY V ARTY - Listen more knows the area knows that Mount Evelyn is, by and carefully, Mr Nardella. large, urban. As you travel past a number of UPPER YARRA VALLEY AND DANDENONG RANGES REGIONAL STRATEGY PLAN

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Hon. D. A. Nardella - I was listening. degree of inconsistency in the argument put by the opposition. Hon. ROSEMARY V ARTY - It is not a nonsense proposition. I have a 180 degree view of If the subdivision were to allow the building of the area. Mr Nardella thinks there is something another house or if it were a block subdivision that funny about it. I suggest he should travel up my would somehow intrude on broadacre agricultural drive and look at the beauty of the valley; then, pursuits, perhaps the opposition would have some perhaps he may recognise what the government is argument. However, its main argument centres on doing. the proposal that the zone minimum lot size is 40 hectares. That argument acknowledges none of Hon. Pat Power - He was there when it was a the existing anomalies in the area. The plan shows Labor electorate. any number of them to the east, west and north of the subject property. Is the opposition suggesting Hon. ROSEMARY V ARTY - Some considerable those should be changed, or is it just pushing the time ago. argument that the proposal relating to this one block should not be allowed to proceed just to prove a Hon. Pat Power - 'When? point on the broader issue of the strategy plan? It does not acknowledge that the strategy plan is Hon. ROSEMARY V ARTY - Are you talking dynamic and that two specific cases overcome the federal or state? problem of old and inappropriate subdivisions­ and, in fact, considerably reduce the number of lots Hon. Pat Power - State. available for houses, particularly in the case of the one north of the river, which is certainly an Hon. ROSEMARY V ARTY - That is some time inappropriate area in which to have small lot ago. Which part are you talking about? subdivisions.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT - Order! Comments However, there has not been one word of should be directed through the Chair. acknowledgment of that from the opposition, nor one word of suggestion that perhaps we are doing Hon. ROSEMARY V ARTY - The part I am the right thing with these amendments. The talking about has not been under Labor for at least opposition has chosen to pick on this particular 15 years. allotment, which does not give it a very strong argument at all. When one examines the issues Hon. Pat Power - I am talking about the victory surrounding this proposal and the general locality of Labor achieved in 1982. the property, one realises that the opposition's argument just does not follow. I support the motion Hon. ROSEMARY V ARTY - That was 15 years and oppose the amendment. ago. As I said, the property affected by the strategy plan, which the opposition is opposing and to which House divided on omission (members in favour it has moved an amendment, is not in a major vote no): agricultural area. It is between two townships. It is on the south side of the Warburton Highway, and it Ayes, 31 is in an area currently undergoing change, in the Asher,Ms Furletti, Mr sense that many vineyards are being established Ashrnan,Mr Hallam, Mr there. As I say, when I look across the valley I can Atkinson, Mr (Teller) Hartigan, Mr now see about six vineyards in the general area Baxter, Mr Katsambanis, Mr around this property. Best, Mr Knowles,Mr Birrell, Mr Lucas,Mr To suggest that somehow the hardship provisions Bishop,Mr Lucl

660 COUNCIL Tuesday, 13 May 1997 de Fegely, Mr Wilding, Mrs payroll tax for certain types of schools. The Forwood, Mr exemption was previously based upon the ability of a school or college to provide education Noes, 9 predominantly at or below the secondary level of Eren, Mr (Teller) Power,Mr education and be carried on for a non-profit Could, Miss Pullen,Mr purpose. The increasing variety of educational Hogg, Mrs Theophanous, Mr services provided by institutions has, over a period Nardella,Mr Walpoie,Mr of time, made the determination of what is or is not Nguyen, Mr (Teller) secondary education more difficult, especially for Pair officers of the State Revenue Office. Smith,Ms McLean,Mrs The amendment replaces the secondary education Amendment negatived. requirement with a test of registration under part III of the Education Act 1958. The consequence of this Motion agreed to. amendment is that revenue officers will not be required to make judgments about what constitutes STATE TAXATION ACTS secondary education but will provide an objective (AMENDMENT) BILL basis to apply the exemption. The bill also repeals a number of spent provisions in the Pay-roll Tax Act Second reading 1971, including part V A, whose operation expired in June 1984. Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Minister for Finance)) - I move: The bill amends the Stamps Act 1958 to insert a new section 41 to deal with offsets of overpaid stamp That this bill be now read a second time. duty. Where taxpayers are authorised under section 40A of the act to carry out a limited range of The purpose of the bill is to make numerous document stamping of their own accord, the new amendments to various state taxation acts. The bill section 41 allows offsets of duty paid to be made in makes amendments of a technical nature to the very limited circumstances. Financial Institutions Duty Act 1982 and repeals spent provisions. In particular, the bill ensures that Where such a registered taxpayer overpays stamp previous amendments to section 28(4)(a) of the act duty as a result of purely arithmetic errors, the are effective in providing that amounts paid under a taxpayer may offset that overpaid duty against his continuing credit contract can be paid into a credit or her next periodic liability. This prevents the provider's exempt account, thereby attracting duty taxpayer having to make application for a refund once only. and encourages the use of the document return system, which the government regards as an The bill makes various amendments to the Land Tax essential part of efficient payment practices. Act 1958, including amendments to the second schedule to the act to rectify numerous technical As part of the benefit of using this facility, the deficiencies. The rectification of these deficiencies taxpayer must notify the commissioner that an will also have the effect of validating past adjustment has been made and is obliged to pass the administrative practices of the State Revenue Office. excess duty credited back to any third party from Those amendments will not disadvantage any whom the taxpayer initially collected the duty. This taxpayer. proviSion in no way removes or changes existing refund rights of the taxpayer. A number of other minor technical amendments are made to definition provisions and to ensure that A further amendment improves the efficiency of ordinary valuations are available for the assessment administration of the Stamps Act 1958 by extending of special tax. The maximum penalty which may be the classes of documents which company registrars provided for under regulations made has been can denote as non-dutiable for Stamps Act purposes. increased from $100 to 20 penalty units, consistent The amendment allows company registrars to with other state taxation statutes. denote a broader range of transfers of marketable securities which would be exempt from duty. This The bill amends section 10(1)(d) of the Pay-roll Tax amendment is part of the government's overall drive Act 1971, which deals with the exemption from to reduce red tape, encourage efficient payment STATE TAXATION ACTS (AMENDMENT) BILL

Tuesday, 13 May 1997 COUNCIL 661 practices and allow taxpayers to get on with their The bill makes two amendments to the Taxation business. If there is any doubt, the taxpayer can (Reciprocal Powers) Act 1987. The first amendment always seek an opinion from the commissioner includes the Liquor Control Act 1987 as one of the under section 32 of the act. acts which can be declared to correspond to liquor acts in other jurisdictions of Australia, thereby The bill further amends the Stamps Act to include de allowing investigators from other jurisdictions to facto spouses in the definition of 'relative' under conduct revenue investigations in Victoria. New section 67 A(7) so that de facto spouses may also take South Wales has already included the Liquor advantage of the exemption from duty relating to Control Act 1992 (NSW) in its Revenue Laws nominee transfers. At present, a de facto spouse can (Reciprocal Powers) Act 1987, allowing Victorian obtain the exemption under a different provision investigators to conduct investigations in New South which has different documentary requirements. In Wales. the interests of consistency and efficiency of administration, such spouses can now obtain the The second amendment rectifies an anomaly in the exemption under the primary division of the act. existing act whereby a person who fails, neglects or refuses to comply with a request of a corresponding The bill also clarifies the position regarding the or state commissioner is subject to a penalty, reduction in duty on amounts received in the course whereas a person who gives false or misleading of rental businesses. The rate of duty was reduced statements is not subject to a penalty. The from 1.5 per cent to 0.75 per cent as part of the amendment introduces a new offence of giving false government's last budget package. This amendment or misleading statements, with a maximum penalty clarifies the operation of that reduction so that the of 10 penalty units. new lower rate applies only to agreements, including hire-purchase agreements, entered into on As part of the government's continuing commitment or after 1 January 1997. This amendment ensures to national competition policy this bill also proposes that this tax reduction applies in the manner stated the application of land tax and stamp duty on in the second-reading speech to the State Taxation mortgages, bonds, debentures or covenants to those (Further Omnibus Amendment) Bill 1996 made in Significant commercial government business the Legislative Council on 15 October last. enterprises (GBEs) that are currently exempted based on their government ownership status. The bill also inserts a new section 137MD, which Exemption from land tax for land used exclusively relates to the exemption from stamp duty for as public open space or parkland will remain. refinanced business loans. As part of the last budget, stamp duty relief was granted on mortgages which The government in June 1996 published a statement secured bona fide refinanced business loans to of its policies on competitive neutrality which enable borrowers to take maximum advantage of includes a requirement that significant commercial competition in interest rates between financial GBEs identified in that policy statement be subjected institutions. The existing provision does not cover to all relevant state taxes and charges within a mortgages securing refinanced business loans specified timetable. This bill gives effect to the policy provided from moneys sourced from solicitors' trust commitment with respect to the progressive accounts, unless the solicitors in question have implementation of state taxes and charges to those formed a company. GBEs. These amendments are to remove market advantages currently enjoyed by significant The government did not intend to require solicitors commercial GBEs over their private competitors. to incorporate to obtain the benefit of the exemption, The application of these taxes to GBEs will occur as which also flows through to their clients. they reach an appropriate stage of reform provided Accordingly, the new provision makes it clear that a the benefits of applying this policy are deemed to person or body corporate may enter a mortgage with outweigh the costs. a sole practitioner or partnership of solicitors and still obtain the exemption as long as the refinanced I commend the bill to the house. loan is for bona fide business purposes. The bill further amends various provisions in the Stamps Act Debate adjourned for Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS 1958 by making minor drafting amendments (Jika Jika> on motion of Hon. D. A. Nardella. consequential on the substantive changes or of a statutory revision nature. Debate adjourned until next day. SENATE VACANCY

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SENATE VACANCY Deakin University

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT - Order! I have University of Ballarat received the following message from His Excellency the Governor: The DEPUTY PRESIDENT - Order! I have also received letters from the Minister for Tertiary and The Governor transmits to the Legislative Council a Education and Training seeking a joint sitting for the copy of a dispatch which has been received from the purpose of making the following appointments: Honourable the President of the Senate notifying that a vacancy has happened in the representation of the state One member to replace Ms Mary Jane Gillett, MP, on of Victoria in the Senate of the Commonwealth of the Deakin University council for the term ending Australia. 30 June 1998; and

JOINT SITTING OF PARLIAMENT Three members to the University of Ballarat council following the expiry of the terms of the Senate vacancy Honourables Richard Strachan de Fegely, MLC; William Desmond McGrath, MP, and Mr Stephen The DEPUTY PRESIDENT - Order! I have also Phillip Bracks, MP, on 26 April 1997. received the following message from the Assembly: I have also received the following message from the The Legislative Assembly acquaint the Legislative Assembly: Council that they have agreed to the following resolution: The Legislative Assembly acquaint the Legislative Council that they have agreed to the following That this house meets the Legislative Council for resolution: the purpose of sitting and voting together to choose a person to hold the place in the Senate That this house meets the Legislative Council for rendered vacant by the resignation of Senator the purpose of sitting and voting together to James Robert Short, and proposes that the time choose members of the Parliament to be and place of such meeting be the Legislative recommended for appointment to the councils of Assembly Chamber on Tuesday, 13 May 1997 at Deakin University and the University of Ballarat 6.15 p.m. and proposes that the time and place of such meeting be the Legislative Assembly chamber on with which they desire the concurrence of the Tuesday, 13 May 1997 at 6.15 p.m. Legislative Council. with which they desire the concurrence of the Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Minister for Health) - By Legislative Council. leave, I move: Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Minister for Health) - By That this House meet the Legislative Assembly for the leave, I move: purpose of sitting and voting together to choose a person to hold the place in the Senate rendered vacant That this house meet the Legislative Assembly for the by the resignation of Senator the Honourable James purpose of sitting and voting together to recommend Robert Short and, as proposed by the Assembly, the members for appointment to the councils of Deakin place and time of such meeting be the Legislative University and the University of Ballarat and, as Assembly chamber this day at 6.15 p.m. proposed by the Assembly, the place and time of such meeting be the Legislative Assembly chamber this day Motion agreed to. at 6.15 p.m.

Ordered that message be sent to Assembly Motion agreed to. acquainting them with resolution. Ordered that message be sent to Assembly acquainting them with resolution. FIRE AUTHORITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

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FIRE AUTHORITIES (AMENDMENT) it will take the MFB down the course followed by BILL Intergraph, and the opposition does not agree with that at all. Unfortunately, in the case of Intergraph, Debate resumed from 24 April; motion of many millions of dollars have been spent on corrupt Hon. G. R. CRAIGE (Minister for Roads and Ports). contracts and corrupt people.

Hon. D. A. NARDELLA (Melbourne North) - Hon. W. R. Baxter interjected. The opposition has many concerns about the Fire Authorities (Amendment) Bill. However, I will Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - If it were otherwise, outline the positive aspects. The opposition believes Mr Baxter, the government would not have called in the bill should not be passed in its present form. the police and there would not be an Therefore, at this early stage I move: Auditor-General's report which says as much. The government now wants to send the MFB down the That all the words after 'That' be omitted with the view same slippery slope as Intergraph. of inserting in place thereof of 'this house refuses to read this bill a second time until - The MFB structure should not be changed because it provides a better service year-after-year with (a) thorough consultation has occurred with the increasingly fewer resources. I know firefighters Country Fire Authority and the Metropolitan Fire within the MFB, and they constantly tell me of the Brigades Board employees and their problems they experience while working on the job. representatives, the insurance industry, the They are expected to do more with less, and they Property Council and local government; continually do the work required by the community. (b) the government clearly rejects the privatisation or Since 1990 the MFB has had to put up with a outsourcing of duties carried out by operational constant reduction in the number of firefighters. firefighters within the authority and the board; and Hon. W. R. Baxter - And so it should have. (c) the government initiates a full and independent public inquiry into the privatisation of emergency Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - That is correct, service communications and dispatch to assess the Mr Baxter, so it should have, but that has been capacity of the government to properly manage achieved through the MFB and the firefighters outsourcing and privatisation projects. working in partnership to do the best by the The Metropolitan Fire Brigade is one of the world's community. You cannot make unilateral decisions best full-time career fire brigades. The Country Fire that exclude firefighters - that will be the effect of Authority is the world's largest and best volunteer the bill - and then expect them to agree to the fire service. The CFA covers a large landmass and changes that will be imposed on them. has 70000 volunteers and approximately 800 professional staff; it comprises 1255 brigades and Hon. W. R. Baxter - How does it do that? 250 urban brigades. Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - I will go into that in Victoria is one of the most fire-prone areas in the depth, Mr Baxter. Honourable members should world, and it is constantly battling serious bushfires. understand that the current MFB board is We had the Black Friday tragedy with its resultant representative. Because employees are represented deaths, the Ash Wednesday tragedy in 1983, and the on the board, they are part of the decision-making bushfires in the Dandenongs on 20 and 21 January process. Under the bill, there is no guarantee that this year. I formally compliment Ms Smith on her employees will continue to be appointed to the work with bushfire victims in the Dandenongs after board and participate in the process - and that is that tragedy. the difference. Currently, there is a good working relationship between the board and its employees, The MFB covers extensive areas of metropolitan but the bill will undermine that. I will expand on Melbourne, as does the CF A, which is responsible that later. for places such as Cranbourne, Werribee, Epping and Springvale. The MFB is highly efficient and The CF A also provides an excellent and highly respected. Unlike Intergraph and its comprehensive service to rural Victoria. The emergency dispatch system, which has required members of the CF A are true heroes because they many changes, the MFB is a high-quality raise funds and put their lives at risk, as well as organisation. Part of the problem with the bill is that taking part in training, drills and fire prevention FIRE AUTHORITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

664 COUNCIL Tuesday, 13 May 1997 work in their own time. They assist with road Services, which will allow him to unduly influence accidents, floods and chemical spills. The families of the board's operations. The legislation is about CF A members are also part of the backbone of the getting at the unions. organisation. The many people who contribute make the CFA a family affair. The opposition commends Hon. W. R. Baxter - They have a bit to answer the volunteers and their families. In 1994 the former for. Public Bodies Review Committee reviewed the MFB and theCFA. Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - You would know.

Hon. B. W. Bishop - Great committee! Hon. W. R. Baxter - And their pernicious influence. Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - Is that just because you were on it? Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - Mr Baxter's comments confirm the government's attitude to the Hon. B. W. Bishop - Absolutely. MFB. As I said earlier, the unions have worked conscientiously with the MFB board to implement Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - The PBRC compared important initiatives. Mr Baxter has confirmed the fire services around Australia and made nine reason for the legislation, which is not about recommendations, some of which have many efficiency but, as with Intergraph, about getting at subsections. For instance, recommendation 2.1 says the leadership of the unions and creating jobs for the there should be one standard model of fire cover as a government's cronies. That is the only conclusion matter of urgency. That means the two organisations one can make. should agree to a common set of standards so that the interface between the two is seamless. The Giving the minister the authority to intervene in the opposition is concerned that that recommendation operations of the MFB and the CF A is has been ignored by the government. unprecedented. I know some people will say there is nothing wrong with that and that the minister The legislation provides for the privatisation of a should be empowered to give written authorisations number of brigades under the MFB. We could end to the emergency services. I note that up with a number of different fire services operating recommendation 2 in the Public Bodies Review in the Melbourne metropolitan area, each with its Committee report says the minister should establish own standards and equipment. The Public Bodies standard or core functions to enable the two Review Committee also found, for example, that the organisations to work more efficiently. MFB and the CF A used different hose couplings. However, the opposition is concerned that the In recommendation 2.3, the PBRC argued for the legislation does not limit the minister's power but co-location of facilities where common standards for allows him to intervene in the operations of the the selection of equipment and the identification of emergency services on a daily basis if he so chooses. manpower resources and training could be Some may say that in practice it will not happen. developed. Unfortunately, the government is not History tells us that when ministers of the Crown implementing the co-location recommendation other are given the authority they inevitably involve than in a couple of pilot programs - and I am themselves in the operational minutiae of entities informed that those pilot programs have stalled. such as these.

Recommendation 2.4 says that performance Clause 28 provides for the appointment of a chief monitoring standards should be established, executive officer, who will report to the board of the reviewed and maintained through a common Metropolitan Fire Brigade and effectively take over reporting system by the Minister for Police and the duties of the chief officer. He will come under Emergency Services. That recommendation was the direct control of the minister. ignored. Hon. W. R. Baxter - Bunkum! Recommendation 6 says the Metropolitan Fire Brigade should remain a statutory authority, but the Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - That is what the legislation flies in the face of that. Instead, it provisions say, Mr Baxter; you should read the bill. proposes that the MFB should come under the direct Direct control will pass to the minister, who will control of the Minister for Police and Emergency have the authority to direct the operations of the FIRE AUTHORITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

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MFB and the CF A in emergencies such as the Coode burning down, in such an emergency 0.2 of a minute Island fires and the tragic Dandenong Ranges is absolutely critical. bushfires. Government members should understand how fires Apart from allowing the government to get back at take hold. The way the system operates is critical the unions, the bill is also about getting at the chief because the longer a fire is left unchecked the more it officer of the MFB because of his criticisms of takes control and makes an even worse position to Intergraph and other bungles. He criticised the be controlled. system when it collapsed and let down the Victorian community during the Dandenong Ranges bushfires Hon. B. W. Bishop - You've lost that one, Don. earlier this year. The MFB had to use a whiteboard instead of Intergraph. Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - No, I have not lost that one. Look at the way fires take hold. For The bill is about looking after the government's example, in a room, even within a minuscule period mates and bringing the CF A under the control of the of time after the first couple of minutes, a fire can minister because it does not want to use the rage out of control. Intergraph's response time Intergraph system. The authority does not trust the blowing out to the 90 percentile might seem only a system, for the important reasons that have been minuscule difference to government members, but highlighted many times in this place and in the other those standards should be maintained. chamber. The system does not work and is full of corruption. Hon. R. I. Knowles - What does it actually mean? Hon. W. R. Baxter - What do you mean by that? Is the system corrupt or are the operators corrupt? Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - It actually means it is taking longer for the fire trucks to get to where the Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - Mr Baxter, if you do fire is occurring - and that is of absolute concern to not know by now you have had your head in the the opposition. That is one of the reasons we do not sand. The system does not work and the CFA does believe the bill should be supported - because the not want to use it. minister can direct the CF A to use Intergraph for its notifications. Hon. W. R. Baxter - What is your definition of corruption? Do you mean the system, itself? Imagine Intergraph phoning up the CFA and sending one of its trucks to the wrong forest! There Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - The tendering process was an instance where Intergraph reported a fire and the fact that the government has allowed the that actually occurred in New South Wales. That is corruption to continue do not give the public any how incompetent Intergraph is. Now the confidence that the system will operate effectively. government wants the CFA to get its notifications The bottom line is that the CFA does not want to use from Intergraph in Victoria under ministerial Intergraph. However, under the bill the minister will direction. The system is not working, but it is critical have the authority to direct the authority to use it, that country Victorians have a dispatch system that which will be horrific for country Victorians. works.

Hon. W. R. Baxter- Why? Imagine Intergraph getting control of the CFA dispatch system: fire trucks would be sent to the Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - Because the system wrong forests hours late and their locations would does not work. It is important that I refer to the MFB be lost altogether from the screens. response rate. The MFB -- Miss Gould - They even ended up getting a Hon. W. A. N. Hartigan - I thought you were Sydney call. talking about the CFA? Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - That is right. The Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - You don't know what opposition is vitally concerned about this totally I am talking about, unfortunately. The MFB incompetent dispatch system and about the minister response rate for the 90 percentile should be being allowed to direct the CFA to use Intergraph. 7.5 minutes but has now blown out to 7.7 minutes. Unfortunately, the bill will politicise emergency Government members are groaning. If your house is services, which is absolutely inappropriate. FIRE AUTHORITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

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Although politicians should set the broad policy for Fire officers would be able to provide fire services, allocating resources and defining core cardiopulmonary resuscitation. I understand functions and objectives, they should not be firefighters are keen to take on that responsibility involved in the day-to-day operational because it means they would be regarded as more considerations. efficient and respected. More importantly, in many circumstances they would be able to save lives. For instance, the government says that in local government councillors should set the policy and Hon. C. A. Strong - Are you in favour of that? leave the day-to-day running to their officers. But this bill does the opposite with emergency services. Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - Yes. Fire services must operate on the basis of what is best for public safety and not what is best for the Hon. W. A. N. Hartigan - What did you think of government or the best political consideration of the the report? day. Look at recommendation No. 2 on page 5 of the Public Bodies Review Committee report, which Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - The then Public states: Bodies Review Committee report?

It is inappropriate for an emergency services provider Hon. W. A. N. Hartigan - Yes. to develop its own standards, core objectives and functions. The committee recommends that these be the Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - The responsibility of the Minister for Police and Emergency recommendations are fine. Services. Hon. W. A. N. Hartigan - Why are you objecting The bill effectively makes the minister of the day the to one? emergency service and then develops the service standards, core objectives and functions. The Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - I have not objected to opposition argues that there needs to be a real that particular recommendation, I have supported it. distance between the minister and the service, which The co-responder function should be will allow the minister to develop the standards, complementary to and not a replacement for the core objectives and functions. That real distance is ambulance service. People should be able to receive important. first aid while waiting for ambulances. In expanding the core objectives and functions and changing the The other objective of the bill that the opposition role of the MFB, the bill recognises what has been supports is renaming the Metropolitan Fire Brigade happening for a long time. The opposition supports the Metropolitan Fire and Emergency Services Board the implementation of a co-responder function for which, as a positive step, defines the standards, core theMFB. objectives and functions of the MFB. The Metropolitan Fire Brigade has a role wider than just The third major component of the bill changes the fire suppression and prevention. For instance, it composition of the MFB. It changes its name to the performs road rescue, rescue extraction, Metropolitan Fire and Emergency Services Board management of hazardous materials, property (MFESB). It changes the representation to a protection, loss prevention and public education. seven-member expert board appointed by the government. However, the bill does not define In recommendation No. 5, the PBRe recommended 'expert member' or explain what skills are required that the MFB take on the role of first responder in to be a member of the board. medical emergencies. The opposition would contend that the MFB should be a co-responder with the Hon. W. A. N. Hartigan - The minister does. ambulance service, which in emergencies would provide flexibility in who could be sent, depending Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - You may have faith in on the closeness of the vehicle, so that the fire officer the minister, Mr Hartigan, but we certainly have not. could give first aid until the ambulance officer The opposition is concerned about this proviSion. arrived. It may cut down on time, which is a positive Who will be appointed? Unfortunately, the step, and enhance the chance of an ill person government has the habit of appointing its cronies remaining alive until the ambulance finally gets to and those on its gravy train to boards; its political the scene. overseers are in place not for the benefit of the authorities but to oversee the boards. Some former FIRE AUTHORITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

Tuesday, 13 May 1997 COUNCIL 667 local government commissioners are now looking Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - Why would the for jobs; if they were to be appointed and perform as government put it in if it was not going to do it? they did with local government superannuation funds, they would be a real bonus for the boards! Hon. W. R. Baxter - A member of the Labor The bill should have broadly defined the required Party may be an ideal appointee. skills or expertise of persons to be appointed to the boards. Proposed new section 11(2), in clause 19, Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - That will not happen, states: Mr Baxter. I understand pigs don't fly that high! That provision does not apply to boards; certainly If a member of the board is a member of the Legislative the government will not appoint Labor Party Council or the Legislative Assembly, the member is not members to the new MFESB. Why would the entitled to the payment of any remuneration or government want a politician on the board? What allowances under this act. expertise would he or she bring to the board? In a change from a representative board to a politically That clause changes the composition of the board. accountable board, what expertise would a politician Earlier I was talking about the government's having have that others would not have? The opposition political overseers within the authorities. Yet, does not support that provision because it is proposed new section 15, in clause 19, states: inappropriate for politicians to have a direct influence on such boards. A member of the board must not, in respect of the office of member, be taken to hold an office or place of profit We hire managers to run the service and we do not under the Crown which would - need to place a politician on the board to oversee it. Is the government trying to make sure the wishes of (a) prevent the member sitting or voting as a member of the minister are carried out in toto? Why else would the Legislative Council or the Legislative Assembly; the government want to make that type of political (b) make void the member's election to the Legislative appointment? Does it not trust the appointments Council or the Legislative Assembly; that will be made?

(c) prevent the member continuing to be a member of Does this proposed change mean there will be an the Legislative Council or the Legislative Assembly; appointment from government MPs and opposition (d) subject the member to liability to a penalty under the MPs? I do not think so; the changes proposed in the Constitution Act 1975. bill seem to indicate the appointment will go only to a member of the government. The current board Why would the government insert those provisions represents all the stakeholders in the current MFB. It unless it intended to directly politicise the board of represents the insurance industry; government the Metropolitan Fire Brigade? The opposition is appointments to protect the interests of Victorian concerned about the politicisation inherent in the taxpayers; local government, where funding is bill. Who will be appointed? The bill contains no provided to the MFB and where local government explanation of why it is necessary to have a direct has a role in the prevention of fires; and, most political appointment to the board. Will it be a importantly, employee representation. member at the time from an area serviced by or outside the jurisdiction of the current MFB? Hon. W. A. N. Hartigan - So, you think that is good, do you? It would be inappropriate for members of Parliament to be involved in the day-ta-day rwming Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - Yes, I believe that is of the new MFE5B. lbis legislation moves the board good because in a real sense if you are talking about from being a representative to an expert board a partnership arrangement and introducing changes which is to have a politician -- to an authority that services the Victorian public, it should occur in such a way that the partnership Hon. W. A. N. Hartigan - It may have. truly exists. An employee representative on the board is important. However, the bill actually gets Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - Why else would you rid of the employee representative. One can only put into a bill the provisions to which I referred assume that is the case because, if it were not, the which may include politicians? government would retain the existing board structure, which allows for employee representation, Hon. W. A. N. Hartigan - So as not to exclude. or at least it would provide for employee FIRE AUTHORITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

668 COUNCIL Tuesday, 13 May 1997 representation in the bill. One need only look at the (e) one shall be selected by the Governor in Council government's record to work out that it will not from a panel, submitted by the executive allow that to occur. committee of the Municipal Association of Victoria, of the names of not less than two persons Without the provision for employee representation each of whom at the time of the submission is a on the board the legislation represents a retrograde councillor of a municipal council who represents a step. These boards should always have employee ward in an urban area; and representation. It is part of the principle of industrial (f) one shall be selected by the Governor in Council democracy that you get groups of people to work from a panel, submitted by the executive together for the benefit of the community. committee of the Municipal Association of Victoria, of the names of not less than two persons Currently the minister is able to appoint people from each of whom at the time of the submission is a a panel of names submitted by representative councillor of a municipal council who represents a organisations that make up the board. These are ward in a rural area. sensible people who make good judgments. The job of the board is to oversee broad parameters and So there is a double standard in the bill. Two policy and not the day-to-day running of the organisations exist to protect the Victorian organisation. We already have a group of people community, each with its own defined area of employed in the operations side: the Chief Fire responsibility, but the bill changes only the board Officer, the chief executive officer and the representation of the MFB; it does not change the management undertake the day-to-day running CFA board, which is representative in its own right. function. However, there is a double standard in the Why would the government do that? What makes bill. the CFA different from the MFB? The government wants absolute control of the MFB board, but it Hon. W. A. N. Hartigan - What is it? Surprise allows the CFA - where the stakeholders are me. actually represented on the authority - to stay the same. Why is the CFA being treated differently from Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - Mr Hartigan will be the MFB and why do we need to have experts on surprised, because obviously he has not read the bill. one board but retain the non-experts, presumably­ The bill does not change the composition of the CFA, not my words - on the authority? The CFA board which is a representative board. It changes only the remains as it is. board of the MFB. Therefore, there is a double standard. Through the bill the government wants to Under this bill, the MFE5B, as it will be called, can absolutely control the metropolitan brigade but have a part-time, non-executive chairperson and the allows the CFA to retain its representative nature. new CEO can assume the powers of the Chief Fire One need only examine section 7 of the Country Fire Officer. The opposition supports the AuthOrity Act to see the difference. It provides for recommendations of the Public Bodies Review 12 members appointed by the Governor in Council, Committee that the CEO and the president be of whom: separate. That is appropriate. We also support the chairperson being part time and non-executive. (aa) one shall be appointed by the Governor in Council to be the chairman of the authority; The opposition does not support the CEO being able (ab) one shall be appointed by the Governor in Council to assume the powers of the Chief Fire Officer. The to be the deputy chairman of the authority; responsibilities are different. A CEO is responsible for the administration and business activities of a (a) two shall be selected by the Governor in Council board and a Chief Fire Officer is a person with from a panel of not less than four names submitted highly specialised skills in the technical operation of by the Minister for Conservation, Forests and the fire brigade related to the task of fighting and Lands; preventing fires and dealing with emergencies. The (b) two shall be selected by the Governor in Council opposition submits the positions should be separate. from a panel of not less than four names submitted by the governing body of the Victorian Rural Fire The opposition understands that the current Chief Brigades Association under this act ... Fire Officer, Mr Godfredson, will become the CEO. He has an excellent reputation and could certainly (d) two shall be selected by the Governor in Council carry out the functions of the position, but future from a panel of not less than four names ... appointees may be accountants, persons with MBAs, submitted by the Insurance Council of Australia; FIRE AUTHORITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

Tuesday, 13 May 1997 COUNCIL 669 bookkeepers or former politicians and would not be Currently appeals are dealt with by a tribunal made able to perform the duties of Chief Fire Officer. Such up of a magistrate, an employee representative and a persons would have no idea of operating a representative of the MFB board. The opposition firefighting service or emergency management - contends that it is a fair and balanced system which they would not have the appropriate skills. The has demonstrated expertise in the demands required opposition understands that the CEO can delegate of both employees and the service. the responsibilities of Chief Fire Officer to the new position of the director of emergency response. An advantage of the current process is that it does However, the final responsibility rests with the CEO, not cost much because members of the tribunal are and the CEO can override any decisions the director not remunerated. However, the bill proposes a new may make - one has only to look at a number of system of two expensive commissions, each with authorities in which CEOs are absolute three commissioners, and a senior commissioner. megalomaniacs - and it is not appropriate for that The commissioners will be able to claim allowances to occur. and be remunerated. The opposition is concerned because it does not know the amount commissioners Hon. W. R. Baxter - This is taken word for word will be paid, but as always the government will look from the speech of the honourable member for Yan after its own. Yean in another place. The opposition is also concerned that they will be Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - It is not. The bill does political appointments and that the appointees will not provide for appropriate checks and balances, remove the independence of the appeals process especially in critical times of emergencies and so on. because they will be subservient to the minister­ One has only to look at the example of the that is, more cronies will be appointed. Metropolitan Ambulance Service and Jack Firman, and consider the corrupt deals that occurred where Hon. W. R. Baxter - Where is the evidence of Mr Firman oversaw the tender process in which that? Intergraph won the dispatch contract. He was a megalomaniac - nobody could control him then Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - You have only to look and still no-one can control him. Year after year the at your own history to see that. The bill restricts the opposition has called for the service to be grounds for appeal. Currently an appeal cannot be investigated and finally a police inquiry has begun allowed if a transfer is in the interests of the into that matter. efficiency of the brigade. Under the bill an appeal will not be able to be brought by a firefighter unless Under the government's double standards, a transfer was not procedurally fair. That is a arrangements at the Country Fire Authority will not technical requirement for an appeal and the process change and it will continue to have a separate Chief does not envisage other aspects that should be taken Fire Officer. It is appropriate for the CFA to retain into account in an appeal. It is not fair to firefighters. that position, yet the position at the MFB will change. The same principle should apply to both For instance, a situation could arise in which a boards. firefighter and his family were victimised by being constantly transferred from one end of the state to The fifth major feature of the bill is the change to the the other, yet under the bill regardless of fairness the appeal process for promotion, transfer and firefighter could not appeal so long as it was done in disciplinary matters in both the MFB and the CFA. a procedurally correct way. It could happen to a The changes are important to firefighters because whistleblower in either the CFA or the MFB. they will affect their livelihoods, their careers and their futures. One has only to consider the position I now turn to the privatisation aspects of the bill. At at the CF A to understand that a decision made page 30, clause 26 proposes to substitute section 26, under the proviSions of the bill could mean that a which under the heading 'Formation of units', states: firefighter has to uproot his family and move from (1) The Board may at any time and from time to time one end of the state to the other. That is an important establish fire or emergency services units to assist issue that will affect firefighters and their spouses, it in carrying out its functions. children, relatives and friends. (2) A unit may consist of - The current promotions appeals system is working (a) persons employed by the Board; or well, yet the government wants to change it. FIRE AUTHORITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

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(b) persons engaged under any contract or Hon. W. R. Baxter - That is about right. A man arrangement entered into by the Board; or with a cork eye can see that. (c) both. Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - It depends how you Hon. W. R. Baxter - What is wrong with that? use that assertion. It is important to understand that a firefighter does not attend only emergencies and Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - I will explain what is false alarms. Firefighters perform other important wrong with it. This section empowers the board to duties that KPMG does not use in its support of outsource or privatise the firefighting functions it firefighters. When firefighters are not out there currently carries out in house. The board can fighting fires or attending to emergencies they play a establish units other than the brigades it has and valuable role in the community. It is an insult to privatise those units. I understand that arises from a firefighters to assert that they are valuable only KPMG report on the Metropolitan Fire Brigade when they are fighting fires or dealing with false commissioned by the government. alarms. KPMG ignores the wide range of other firefighting functions. Proposed section 26(2) picks up one of the recommendations, which was to privatise eight Hon. W. R. Baxter - Such as? brigades within the MFB. What firefighting expertise does KPMG have? The same expertise as Intergraph Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - Training, drills, has with dispatching emergency vehicles: none! public education, administrative work, checking Firefighting is a specialised service. Firefighters smoke detectors, responding to personal safety perform a number of functions to protect the requests, assisting older people and providing fire community, yet KPMG comes up with these education within schools. recommendations - I assume to break the union, which was the real reason the government awarded Hon. W. A. N. Hartigan - Rescuing pussy cats Intergraph the communications contract. It is not from trees. about saving money; KPMG would not have proposed these recommendations to save money. Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - You may well laugh The Intergraph contract has not saved the about pussy cats up trees, Mr Hartigan, but for government any money; it has cost the state more to many people those services are extremely important. run the service than before. Mr Hartigan may not care about people, but I certainly do, and so do firefighters. By introducing the recommendation the government hopes to bring competition into the firefighting Hon. W. A. N. Hartigan interjected. services. What will be the result? Various brigades will compete against one another to get to fires. Is Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - Mr Hartigan should that what firefighting and emergency services are all listen instead of using that motormouth. Some about? Is the intent of the recommendation to 97 per cent of school children at primary school implement national competition policy? I do not undertook the fire program delivered by firefighters. think so. Is it to put in place the conservative Firefighters are also involved in the protection of ideology and philosophy of private is good and dangerous goods, urban search and rescue, public is bad? That is all I can think of. Will the fire environment monitoring and reporting, brigade attend a house fire but check the owner's occupational health and safety inspections and wallet or whether they have Bankcard before putting household safety inspections. the fire out? That is one of the opposition's concerns. Hon. W. A. N. Hartigan - Who pays for the Hon. W. R. Baxter - The people who do not household safety inspections? insure should be making a contribution. Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - It is interesting that Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - Why should Mr Hartigan is not aware that at various times something that has been working well be changed? firefighters check people's houses. It is a community At least there is standardisation within the two service. Government programs offer assistance to services. KPMG's assertions about the older people by ensuring that their homes are safe, recommendations are false. One of its assertions is and the community pays for those services. The that less than 5 per cent of a firefighter's time on people who insure are people from the community duty involves attending emergencies or false alarms. and the councils, which also contribute as FIRE AUTHORITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

Tuesday, 13 May 1997 COUNCIL 671 stakeholders in the :MFB and the CF A. It is picked up in the bill. One recommendation is that unfortunate that honourable members on the other the eight fire brigades be privatised. That would side of the house do not understand or do not care affect the integration of the service. about the value of such programs. Hon. W. R. Baxter - It is not in the bill. Firefighters carry out automotive and marine safety inspections as well as a range of other indirect but Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - Why would that important firefighting-related services such as the particular prOvision be there if it is not going to inspection of buildings and attending occur? There have been many times when Neighbourhood Watch meetings. Honourable government members have stated categorically that members opposite again grimace, but firefighters something will not occur, yet the legislation on the provide a valuable service to the community. Their books proves otherwise. The bill has been drafted to contribution is not only the less than 5 per cent of ensure the recommendations made by KPMG will be time spent fighting fires, but the other valued implemented. responsibilities and duties that they undertake. In its report KPMG praises other privatised fire The community pays for the services that are services. One, Rural Metro, which is based in the provided to people and corporations one way or the United States, is one of the worse companies you other. When dealing with the safety of people and could ever see. The company, which operates out of property it is important to have a system that works Scottsdale, Arizona, took over firefighting in the and that values firefighters for the work they do. The district. The first thing it did was to sack firefighters. MFB has the lowest number of firefighters per What happened? It sent out fire trucks manned by household of any firefighting service in Australia. only one firefighter when there should have been four. Hon. W. A. N. Hartigan - So what? Hon. K. M. Smith - On a point of order, Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - Mr Hartigan says, 'So Mr President, I just happened to refer to the Hansard what'. It means we have an efficient and of the debate in the other house and I noticed that value-for-money service that is not overbloated and Mr Nardella was reading it word for word. Because actually performs its duties under pressure. The there may be typographical errors, I would like to MFB is highly respected by the Victorian check with him to see whether what he has written community, and it is important to put that on the on his piece of paper is the same as what is reported record. On 12 July 1993, Mr Brian Parry, the in Hansard. president of the MFB, told the Public Bodies Review Committee: I think he is about to say that two people are needed to operate equipment on each truck and two are We operate the lowest level of manning of front-line needed to use the hoses. Mr Nardella is stealing his pumpers of any fire service in Australia. speech from what was said in the other house, which is not the right thing to do. If he wants to make a In its report KPMG states that the fire service should speech about something he knows something about, cut its operational manpower by a further 25 per he should use his own words instead of copying cent, from 1398 to 1049. Those firefighting experts at word for word the speech of Mr Haermeyer, the KPMG, who learnt their firefighting skills watching honourable member for Yan Yean in the other place. the Brisbane-based TV series Fire, which starred If Mr Haermeyer talked sense you could probably Tottie Goldsmith, are telling Victorian firefighters understand it, but he is as stupid as you are on this. that their excellent service should operate with fewer staff. If that recommendation is adopted it will Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - These are my own further increase turn-out times, put extra pressure notes, and I am happy for honourable members to on staff, and cause more injury and property look at them. I have taken advice on the bill, and damage. The fire brigade must be able to respond some of the information I have received is based on within 7.5 minutes at the 90th percentile of calls. As I advice taken by the honourable member for Yan said before, the average response time has blown out Yean in the other place. I have other information that to 7.7 minutes. I have obtained off my 0\'\'11 bat. There is no point of order. It is important to look at some of the other recommendations in the KPMG report that are FIRE AUTHORITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

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The PRESIDENT - Order! There are two Under the bill the Minister for Police and Emergency matters. First, it is clear that honourable members, Services will be authorised to direct industry particularly experienced members, should not read brigades in refineries and large factories. The their speeches. Second, a speech has to be that provision may mean that companies will pay member's own speech, which is why the extensive twice - firstly, through the insurance levy, and quotation of other sources is not allowed. secondly through the cost of establishing their own Mr Nardella has assured us that this is his 0'WIl brigades. However, the bill gives the CF A greater speech with the information he has garnered from a powers to oversee municipal fire protection plans. A number of sources. The notes he held up were comprehensive plan is needed, so that provision is presumably in his own handwriting. For that reason, welcome. We must minimise the tragedies that occur although Mr Smith correctly spelt out the rules of from time to time by implementing fire prevention the house, I do not uphold the point of order. measures.

Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - Rural Metro, a private The opposition's reasoned amendment should be sector organisation that took over an important supported. Victoria has two of the best firefighting community service, did not have the good. sense to services in the world. There is no reason to privatise staff its trucks with enough people. Even though the the MFB, and there is no reason to put politicians in police in the Keystone Kops films that were made charge of emergency services. The measure is driven earlier this century might have been incompetent, at by ideology, so I urge honourable members to least those in charge had the good sense to send lots support the reasoned amendment. of officers! Another change required people to become subscribers. Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern) - The house has just been subjected to one and a half hours Time and time again privatisation has resulted in of listening to Mr Nardella struggle to make his way cost overruns, a reduction in the quality of service through a speech made in another place by the and a phenomenal blow-out in response times. It shadow minister, the honourable member for Yan gets down to a user-pays system where you need to Yean. Unfortunately, in doing so, Mr Nardella has flash the Bankcard before your property is protected. repeated the shadow minister's ignorant assertions Private companies are not providing real and re-emphasised his lack of understanding, community service. There have been situations particularly of the Country Fire Authority. where assistance has been needed in areas outside Mr Hartigan and I were able to follow Mr Nardella's the control of the private companies, but that speech by reading the Hansard report of the shadow assistance has not been forthcoming because of minister's speech. We knew precisely what was disputes about payment for those services. coming next. That was the reason for Mr Smith's point of order. That would be extremely dangerous in Australia. Imagine what would have happened during the Ash It is sad that when debating an important bill that Wednesday fires in 1983 if the CFA had not reacted deals with fire services an opposition member feels because it was awaiting payment for services compelled to parrot ideologically tainted arguments rendered. Public companies must maximise the furnished by a union that has failed to grasp the profits of their shareholders, but that principle is opportunities for change offered by new technology, incompatible with community services whose new management and improved operational skills. charters require them to protect the community. If one takes what Mr Nardella said at face value, we would still be fighting fires with hose reels drawn by The bill will create industry brigades within the men using manual pumps. The union has opposed CF A. For example, brigades will be established for innovations in fuefighting services at every turn, just timber plantations bigger than 10 hectares. Some as other unions have done by exerting their companies already provide their own firefighting pernicious influence on so many avenues of capacities. The bill will ensure that the CFA is able to community life. take control and integrate the brigades within its own system. Members of the opposition welcome Mr Nardella and his colleagues do themselves no that provision, but we are concerned that it may be credit by failing to tackle and override those the thin end of the wedge and the forerunner of a blinkered views and by not acting in the interests of user-pays brigade. the larger community. The changes made since 1992 show that the government cannot be accused of a lack of endeavour or a failure to foresee the future. FIRE AUTHORITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

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I listened carefully during Mr Nardella's long regional towns, so they are not on site when fire speech, hoping that he would deal logically with the sirens sound. points set out in the reasoned amendment and lead evidence for the house to consider. Regrettably, little Some hobby farmers who come from areas serviced information was forthcoming. No evidence was led by a fully paid-up MFB or whatever take a while to about the lack of consultation. I do not think recognise the importance of voluntary service in the Mr Nardella referred to paragraph (a) at all. He fire brigade, not realising that in the country one talked about privatisation and the outsourcing of the does it oneself or it does not happen. Perhaps, as we functions carried out by fire services, but he failed to are seeing in other aspects of our community life, offer evidence to show why those changes ought to volunteerism is in decline. Fewer people are now be resisted if they deliver better or more efficient prepared to come forward and offer their services to services. these sorts of activities. Instead, they tend to take the view that it is the government's responsibility, that Paragraph (c) is contradictory because it addresses the government ought to do it. All honourable two separate issues. It refers to the privatisation of members would acknowledge that there is no way emergency service communications and discusses that Victoria could afford a country fire service that outsourcing in general. I do not see how an inquiry goes anywhere near matching the services provided could address the second part of paragraph (c), so I by the volunteer members of the CF A. think the house can confidently and properly reject the reasoned amendment. There are a couple of other reasons why the alarm bells are ringing for the CFA. The administration of Victoria's fuefighting services, particularly the the CFA is becomingly increasingly bureaucratised. Country Fire Authority, are fine services. The CFA While I have a great respect for the chairman and the has had an excellent record since its formation in the chief officer, I have become concerned, not just over mid-1940s.1t recently celebrated 50 years of the past year or so but over a period going right back operation, and I have attended a number of to when I was a brigade secretary in the late 196Os, anniversary functions organised by local brigades. that the paperwork has been growing at an For example, I attended a function at Leneva, near exponential rate. For example, the incident report Wodonga, which was attended by many members of form, which in my day was a one page sheet, is now the original 1947 brigade. I was particularly pleased about four pages long, requiring the assembling of a to see the Chevrolet truck which the first brigade range of statistics which, I presume, needs an army used for fighting fires and which is still owned by of bureaucrats to collate and interpret. What Mr Jack Elliott, a founding member. purpose does that serve?

In those days whatever was on the truck had to be I will give one example, although admittedly it is not off-loaded and the water tank loaded on before it set a recent one. In 1993 one of my brigades was off to fight a fire. According to Mr Nardella's time admonished by the CFA administration for allegedly scale, that led to long delays in getting to fires. These exceeding the speed limit as it returned to the fire days Victoria's rural fire brigade trucks have much station after a fire. How was that arrived at? The more sophisticated equipment. One only has to look times given on the incident sheet were compared at the quality, range and amount of equipment. One with the distance travelled, and the conclusion was wonders how fires were ever put out prior to the made that if the times were right the brigade must formation of the CF A and shortly thereafter given have exceeded the speed limit. Whether or not that the basic equipment -leather beaters, knapsacks was so, what was the purpose of it all? Why are and the rakes - available at the time. Yet those volunteers being required to fill in details to a degree firefighters did it, forming the service and building a that requires some office workers somewhere great tradition of volunteerism. spending all their time working them out?

Notwithstanding that, I want to tell the house that Many secretaries and brigade office-bearers are alarm bells are ringing for the CFA and its volunteer getting sick and tired of the constant paper warfare. members, for a number of reasons. One is the There has been a huge expansion in the paid work declining population in country localities, where force of the Country Fire Authority. Fifteen years there are fewer people to form the nucleus of ago the North Eastern Province had regional CFA brigades. Many of the young people who remain in officers and one or two paid staff. Now it has an those districts are now working off the farm in army of area managers and risk managers. Every fire station in my electorate now seems to have people FIRE AUTHORITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

674 COUNCIL Tuesday, 13 May 1997 sitting around in uniforms. That is building up I know there are fine lines between occupational resentment among the volunteers, who see a lot of health and safety and legal liability and so on. But it the authority's financial resources going to pay is easy for someone in a secure job to play safe all the wages while fewer services are being provided. time while sitting in an airconditioned office at Tally Ho, taking every requirement to the edge rather than The old days are gone when the regional officer adopting a practical, commonsense outlook. I am came to the brigade meetings and was otherwise concerned that the focus of the CFA is somewhat out always out on the road. He now seems to be hogtied of line, which will have detrimental effects indeed. to an office somewhere, and that is building up As I said, I have not come to this view in the past resentment as well. There is also a feeling, perhaps year or two. In fact, I wrote to the former minister, not entirely warranted, that many paid officers now Mr McNamara, on 14 January 1993, setting out lack practical firefighting experience and that many of my concerns. Since I wrote I have not because they come from other disciplines they do noticed any diminution in the sorts of things I am not have the sort of experience which has made the talking about. CFA great. We need to be careful that we do not turn off volunteers by creating an organisation that is too I have a number of concerns about the bill which I top heavy. wish to place on the record. First, I refer to the industry brigades. It was interesting listening to A further aspect - I know this is a difficult one to Mr Nardella parrot Mr Haermeyer's speech. The deal with - concerns the level of training now shadow minister clearly has no idea of the concept of required of firefighters and other volunteers. I agree industry brigades. He clearly has not consulted that people need to be able to work the equipment, members of the Country Fire Authority, particularly start the motors and pumps and be properly in the north-east or in Gippsland. If he had, he licensed to drive the trucks. Victoria is fortunate to would certainly have had the matter drawn to his have always had a small group of people in every attention. That is another indication of his lack of district who are absolutely dedicated to maintaining homework. the equipment in tip-top order and who go along on Sunday mornings to do the radio schedules and so Those brigades are not new. For probably 30 years on. I commend that small nucleus of people. the Australian Paper Mills establishment in Gippsland has had an industry brigade protecting However, there are dozens of others who will turn its assets. In the past under its previous names the out for fires but not do the maintenance work for a Department of Natural Resources and Environment whole range of reasons - time, inclination and so has had firefighting capabilities separate from the on. If we require those people to do training CFA. exercises which they believe are unnecessary, tedious, time consuming and expensive, I am afraid A concern now emerging, at least in the north-east they will walk away. We have to remember they are and I expect elsewhere, involves additional not salaried employees who have some responsibilities being placed upon the CFA in the responsibility to do as the boss or the manager area of the state for which it will be responsible if directs. Volunteers are not under that sort of privatisation of Crown land proceeds. Section 14 of compulsion - if they do not like it, they simply the Country Fire Authority Act details the walk away. responsibilities of the CFA. It states:

Victoria is getting to the situation where a number of The control of the prevention and suppression of fires volunteers will begin to walk away if the increase in in the country area of Victoria is, subject to this act, the requirements expected of them continues at the vested in the authority. pace it has over the past five years. I am not talking about one or two people, I am talking about dozens One then needs to have regard to the definition of of long-serving office-bearers in country brigades 'country area' in section 3: who are complaining to me about this and who are already observing the trend in the community. 'Country area of Victoria' means that part of Victoria People are saying, 'We will not put up with this which lies outside the metropolitan fire district, but much longer. Yes, we will turn out and fight fires, does not include any forest, national park or protected but we will not come along and be required to public land ... complete all these accreditation certificates and so on'. JOINT SITTING OF PARLIAMENT

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In simple terms, the CF A is responsible for was chosen to be recommended for appointment to firefighting and fire suppression on private land but Deakin University council for the term ending 30 not on public land. The definition of 'protected June 1998; and the Honourable Richard Strachan de public land' in section 3 of the Forests Act states: Fegely, MLC, Ms Mary Jane Gillett, MP, and the Honourable William Desmond McGrath, MP, were ... any lands of the Crown or land vested in the chosen to be recommended for appointment as Victorian Plantations Corporation not being within a members of the council of the University of Ballarat state forest or a national park declared to be protected for the term ending 26 April 2000. public land pursuant to the provisions of sub-section (I) of section 62 of this act ... FIRE AUTHORITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL Section 62(1A)(f) states that where: Second reading ... land is- Debate resumed. (i) Crown land that is managed land within the meaning of the Victorian Plantations Corporation Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern) - Prior to Act 1993; or the suspension of the sitting I was outlining to the (iD vested land within the meaning of that act - h?use the statutory responsibilities of the Country Flre Authority in fire suppression in country the land is deemed to be protected public land while it Victo~a and pointing out that the CF A is responsible is so vested or managed. on pnvate land but not on public land. I was also pointing out that concern has been expressed by In other words, the CFA is not responsible for that some brigades, particularly in the north-eastem part land, but if privatisation of Victorian Plantations of the state, that with the possible privatisation of Corporation forests proceeds, by the definitions I the Victorian Plantations Corporation land areas a have referred to it will become a responsibility of the significant added burden would be imposed on the CF A for fire suppression in those areas. CFA and that because those areas are very light on population there may be some difficulties in the The PRESIDENT - Order! The time has arrived brigades managing the added responsibility. Hence, for this house to meet the Legislative Assembly to of course, the industry brigades that are a feature of choose a person to hold the place in the Senate this bill have really come into being. Prior to that rendered vacant by the reSignation of Senator the matter being addressed I had had numerous Honourable James Robert Short and to recommend discussions with brigades in the area. In fact, I wrote members for appointment to the councils of Deakin to the Treasurer on 5 September 1996 saying, among University and the University of Ballarat. other things: As the joint sitting is expected to conclude at a I desire to draw your attention to widespread concern convenient time for the dinner recess, the chair will in north-eastern Victoria (and, I believe elsewhere in be resumed at 8.00 p.m. the state) regarding proposals which might result in timber plantations, presently on public land and Debate interrupted. administered by the Victorian Plantations Corporation, being privatised. Sitting suspended 6.14 p.m. until 8.02 p.m. JOINT SITTING OF PARLIAMENT Let me, at the outset, emphasise that the privatisation policies of the government generally are supported. Nor is there any objection to the management and The DEPUTY PRESIDENT - Order! I have to ownership of the trees being privatised. report that this house met with the Legislative Assembly this day to choose a person to hold the However, there is a concern that the alienation of very place in the Senate rendered vacant by the large tracts of hitherto public land needs very careful resignation of the Senator, the Honourable James consideration and that alternative models should be Robert Short, and to recommend members for canvassed. appointment to the councils of Deakin University and the University of Ballarat, and that Ms Karen The apprehension stems from a number of concerns. ~argaret Synon was chosen to hold the vacant place First, the matter of fire protection and suppression. ill the Senate. Mrs Judith Marilyn Maddigan, MP, FIRE AUTHORITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

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Legislation requires the Country Fire Authority to plantation exceeding 10 000 hectares. That really accept such responsibility on private land. Many gave me a great deal of concern. To those of us who members of local volunteer brigades are of the opinion still think in acres, 10 000 hectares is 25 000 acres - a that manpower resources presently available in these huge area of plantation. In the north-east, in reality, relatively remote districts are insufficient to enable the it would mean that we would probably not have an addition of such large areas of fire-prone potential to be industry brigade at all, yet the north-east is one of willingly accepted. The manpower deficit will worsen the major pine plantation regions of the state. as restructure in agriculture proceeds. I was particularly pleased that the minister and his I went on in that letter to discuss some other matters staff took account of my reservations. I might say I that are not relevant to the debate tonight. I must say am not alone in expressing them. In fact, a working the Treasurer responded quite positively on party is currently developing the regulations that 19 December in a letter in which he pointed out that will specify the type and level of risk and the the government had not yet taken any decisions on requirements for the formation of industry brigades. the privatisation of the vpc. Among other things, he The working party has representatives of the said: plantation industry from both large and small holdings; the CFA corporate structure; and the CFA The change in legal status of the land from vested to senior volunteer group. It is undertaking a risk freehold title is intended to send a clear message that assessment that will include location-specific the VPC is wholly responsible for the land and timber variables - that is, Gippsland versus north-eastern resources that it manages. Freehold title will allow the versus south-western Victoria - and consideration VPC to operate in an unencumbered commercial of the size/area; the topography - slope, aspect of manner and is consistent with the government's the land; vegetation, type and quantity, both on generic corporatisation objectives. The rationale that plantation and adjacent land; climatology and the VPC should hold freehold title to the land on which weather patterns, proneness to lightning strikes; and it operates its business is identical to that which will see fire history, including proximity to potential fire the land presently managed by the Melbourne Port lighting risk, inadvertent and deliberate - Corporation converted to freehold title. regrettably, there are still a few crazies in the community who go out and light fires, particularly I do not contest that contention at all. In terms of on total fire ban days. commercial reality, if we want these formerly government-operated businesses to operate on a The working party will also look at the availability fully commercial footing, it is appropriate that the of other fire suppression resources in that particular land be freehold. But that does not necessarily mean locality, such as volunteer brigades. It needs to be in any way that we should not take account of the said that in many areas the local brigades are a fair concerns that have been expressed or the distance apart and have relatively small implications, some of them wtintended, that might memberships. It is very important that an emerge from such freeholding. assessment be made of that situation.

Although my letter requested that further Another important aspect of the regulations is the consideration be given to conditional freehold or issue of contiguous plantation land-holdings - that long-term leasehold, nevertheless, it could well turn is, if VPC lands were to be broken up into smaller out in the future that full and unfettered freehold is parcels the regulations should require that where given for the valid reasons the Treasurer put adjacent smaller parcels exceed the established risk forward in his reply. Therefore, the bill proposes the threshold an industry brigade could be required. formation of industry brigades on a more formal That could well happen. If the VPC lands are basis than in the past - when they have been privatised the new corporate entity might well make established by operators such as APM purely in a decision to subdivide its plantations and parcel their own interests to protect their significant them out to individual investors. That has already plantation assets. I am pleased the legislation is happened in the private enterprise timber industry. moving down that track. It would be important in such a case for the However, I was somewhat alarmed a fortnight ago aggregation rather than individual land-holders to when being briefed by some of the minister's officers be taken into account. That is not to say there ought to be informed that the intention was that industry to be an individual industry brigade for every parcel brigades would be formed only in areas of plantation, because that would be totally FIRE AUTHORITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

Tuesday, 13 May 1997 COUNCIL 677 uneconomic as well as being unworkable from an tree without looking at the overall means and administrative viewpoint. However, there needs to efficacy of putting the fire out in the quickest be a sense of the totality of the situation. possible time. Those issues have to be addressed before an event happens so that if such I am delighted to say that in those circumstances the circumstances arise, as they inevitably will, there bill provides that a group of owners in a designated will be no indecision or confusion about who is to do area can be required to form an industry brigade what. and contribute to it, or alternatively that it be provided by some other mechanism, such as via the A couple of other issues will need to be dealt with CF A contracting to some contractor to provide the concerning the situation after fires have been service and each of the individual land-holders controlled. One is the blacking out of pine being required to contribute to the cost. I see that as plantations. I do not think members of volunteer a quite feasible, or even an ideal situation. brigades will have any qualms about going into plantations that are privately owned and assisting to I emphasise that farmers in the north east of Victoria put out fires, but they will not want to spend the who are surrounded by pine plantations, such as next week or 10 days blacking out the area. That has those in the Tallangatta Valley or further on in the to be the responsibility of plantation owners and Shelley plantations, consider there to be a significant industry brigades. That needs to be clearly spelt out. fire risk. Those people would have just cause for alarm if they thought they would be left unprotected There is also concern about the other activities in because the Department of Natural Resources and which industry brigades might be involved. If, for Environment was pulling out as a result of the example, a motor accident occurred which the local privatisation of plantations. volunteer brigade would normally attend, would the industry brigade attend if it happened to be the In the future industry brigades will be an essential closest brigade? I hope rural communities would component of fire protection in plantation areas. The pull together and if an industry brigade happened to CF A is working toward producing a set of workable be closest it would go and assist in such a situation. recommendations on the issue. I will be interested in However, the situation is a bit unclear at the seeing the regulations. I hope they will soon be moment and needs to be sorted out. publicised so that we can get the message out to the community that the government has noted and The other issue which is causing some concern was taken on board the concerns that have been dealt with by Mr Nardella, but in a somewhat expressed, and that the regulations have been different fashion from the way in which I want to drafted accordingly. deal with it. He expressed a great deal of concern about ministerial direction, and I could not help There are other concerns about the operational thinking, 'If only he had been here in 1983 when procedures of the industry brigades, such as the Race Mathews was the Minister for Police and proposed chain of command. I have been assured by Emergency Services and attempted to introduce the chairman of the CFA that that is in hand and that ministerial direction to the CF A and MFB in a quite there is unlikely to be a problem in a fire situation dramatic fashion'. It is amazing how the attitudes with normal CFA volunteer brigades operating members held when their party was on this side of alongside industry brigades. Although I accept his the house change when they are in opposition; but assurance, clearly in practical terms - in a field perhaps we have seen that happen previously. situation with a fire ruruting - we cannot afford indecision or failure to accept that someone is in My concern is that some members of volunteer fire command legally and is giving the orders. I implore brigades consider themselves to be volunteers for the CFA board to make sure that it has in place a the CFA lock, stock and barrel. Because they have a proper set of procedures before a fire takes place so good record and feel they should be independent that all parties know where they stand. they wonder why there should be any form of ministerial direction. In my view there has to be Other issues might need consideration. For example, accountability in government and by the will an industry brigade have different objectives to government. The government is the custodian of the local CFA brigade? The CFA brigade will be public moneys, and although the CF A is funded interested in putting the fire out, which might mean largely by contributions by persons who insure, it is burning down a few trees in the plantation, whereas nevertheless still public money. At the end of the the industry brigade might want to protect every day there has to be some sort of accountability by FIRE AUTHORITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

678 COUNCIL Tuesday, 13 May 1997 the government of the day for statutory authorities, Will not involve minister in direction of chief officer in and appropriately by the minister of the day. his fireground duties, or in the day-te-day or operational functions of the authority. I was fascinated by Mr Nardella's opposition to that concept. I could not help thinking about a debate I That is important. There is no suggestion that the had a little bit to do with in this chamber prior to the minister of the day should have been up in the last election. It was the debate on the Melbourne Dandenongs, despite Mr Nardella's suggestion that City link Authority Bill. Section 8 of the Melbourne maybe the minister would have been taking control City link Authority Act states: of the fire. It seems to me, however, that in terms of recent legislative practice every statutory authority (1) The Authority is subject to the general direction and needs to have this type of provision in its legislation, authority of the Minister. and I have already given the house an example. (2) A written direction may be given to the Authority Some volunteer firefighters are concerned that the from time to time - capacity to give a direction will lead to a minister - n?t n~cessarily the current minister - giving a (a) by the Treasurer, in relation to financial matters; direction that there be an amalgamation of the CFA (b) by the Minister, in relation to any other matters. and the MFB, which is simply not possible. The organisations are constituted by separate acts of It is not surprising that I cannot recall any Parliament, and an amalgamation would require the opposition being expressed to that provision when passing of legislation. There is adequate safeguard that bill was before the house only two or three years that there can be no amalgamation by stealth, by the ago. back door or by ministerial direction because legislation would be required and Parliament would Hon. B. N. Atkinson - They wanted to know have to have to consider it and make a reasoned where the transponder was going to go. judgment. People should put aside this sort of conspiracy theory. Hon. W. R. BAXTER - Exactly. It was an issue that was simply never put on the table. Again we Cr~dence is perhaps given to the theory in clause 16, have the opportunistic attitude of the opposition in which a:nends the Metropolitan Fire Brigades Act. raising a matter because it thinks on a particular The mam purposes of the act are to provide for fire aspect it can get some mileage. Clearly the safety, suppre.ssio~ and prevention and emergency opposition has been totally inconsistent because it response servIces ID the metropolitan fire district, d~d not raise the issue in respect of Melbourne City and to establish a metropolitan fire and emergency Un!< Authority legislation and has not raised it in services board. People tell me that what they respect of other legislation. One wonders why it is predicted is already happening: that the name is being raised now. being changed to create an emergency services board and that the government is going to put I refer to the report of the former Public Bodies everyone together. Review Committee, which Mr Nardella went to great lengths to tell us about, asking why the The bill recognises the reality of what the MFB government was not adopting all of its currently does. Mr Nardella gave us a couple of recommendations. Mr Nardella might well have examples of pussy cats up trees and kids with noted that the committee recommended that there fingers stuck in bath plugholes and defended the be capacity for ministerial direction. MFB officers for attending to all these things. The MFB is in fact conducting emergency operations at I have had discussions with the Minister for Police this moment, and in recent days there has been a and Emergency Services in another place. I invited quite proper announcement about the first him to put his comments into the record, and he did responder, or, as Mr Nardella wants to call it so fairly generously in his response to proposed new co-responder in emergency situations. It makes a lot section 6A inserted by clause 5. The minister's of sense. There are many fire stations around comments included: metropolitan Melbourne, but fewer ambulance statio~. If the capacity exists for the fire brigade to Minister to have a general power of direction over react first, why not? Surely it is the best use of authority for control of key issues especially where they resources. I do not see anything sinister in the relate to government policy. change of name. It simply recognises current reality. FIRE AUTHORITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

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Members of the Victorian Rural Fire Brigades recommended that common standards be put in Association Region 23 Committee wrote to me place across Australia. That meant establishing a expressing concern. I understand the concerns; they seamless system for hooking-up of suction or are quite valid. However, I think that the minister, delivery pipes in the event of fire. All organisations the CFA and the government can demonstrate to the will move in that direction, but practical solutions association that its concerns are misplaced and that such as dual-purpose couplings can be put in place it can have confidence in the government to do the daily. Any practical person would follow that right thing on its behalf. course; the fire brigades did.

Victoria has a great fire service, particularly in The CFA came to the fore during the New South country areas. To some extent the city has suffered Wales fires. The Victorian firefighters were well from the pernicious influence of the United received and performed extremely well. The Firefighters Union, and the bill goes to some way Victorian equipment was recognised as world-class towards addressing that issue. Country Victoria has and performed particularly well under the had a firefighting service since the 1940s, and that circumstances. It was fairly difficult for the service is recognised worldwide. We must be careful Victorians: it was a new area to them and a strange not to ruin it by failing to acknowledge and way to fight fires because it was different from what recognise its uniqueness, otherwise we will sap the they had been used to. enthusiasm of the thousands of volunteers who at present are under great stress for many reasons. The Mr Nardella drew a long bow when he spoke about last thing the government wants is to discourage ministerial control in the CF A and the Metropolitan volunteers and have them walk away, because the Fire Brigades Board. On the one hand he said the community cannot afford to fund the sort of fire government should force issues along in relation to service it has enjoyed for the past 50 years. the couplings or what may have been recommended by the Public Bodies Review Committee; but on the Hon. B. W. BISHOP (North Western) - It is with other hand he said don't give the minister any pleasure that I speak on the Fire Authorities power; don't let him interfere with that. You cannot (Amendment) Bill and the reasoned amendment. have it both ways. As Mr Baxter said, statutory Mr Nardella made a valiant attempt to present a authorities must be accountable vis-a-vis the case, but he got off the track most of the way funding and the public responsibility that the through. On one issue we all agree: that we all want government puts on statutory authorities in relaying to make the MFB and the CFA the world's best the service component that they have. firefighting service. Provided the consultative process is put in place and cooperation is adhered to The views of the Minister for Police and Emergency throughout the systems, the bill makes the service Services in the other house, Mr McGrath, on even better. The changes to the MFB board and the ministerial direction are dear. I cannot see how a systems will see them better placed for the future. minister could get involved in the operational Such a joint industry group venture with the CFA is control of a fire service. To claim otherwise is also a step in the right direction and one that already absolute nonsense given the skill and coordination has an historical base. required on the ground on a day-to-day basis. It would not matter whether it was an industrial fire, a Mr Nardella was concerned about the lack of forest fire or a paddock fire, a minister would prefer employee representation on the Metropolitan Fire to leave it to the skilled operators. Brigades Board. I draw his attention to the second-reading speech, which mentions an appeal Another issue involved a recommendation by the process, which Mr Nardella noted in his Public Bodies Review Committee that the brigade contribution. The process gives protection to the respond to accidents. The committee's inquiry into staff of the Metropolitan Fire Brigades board and of the Metropolitan Fire Brigades Board was the Country Fire Authority and will stand in good interesting. I assure the house that the committee stead for the future to ensure that justice is done in had no intention of overriding any ambulance all those areas. service in any particular area. It is a practical recommendation that recognises two major points. Much mileage and air time was given to the findings The first is that MFB officers are highly skilled. In of the former Public Bodies Review Committee, of fact, during the inquiry officers said they were keen which I was fortunate enough to be a member when to adopt what I would describe as paramedic roles. it looked into the MFB board. The committee Second, fire brigade officers are often first at the FIRE AUTHORITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

680 COUNCIL Tuesday, 13 May 1997 scenes of accidents. Why not utilise the services of to get enough volunteers. I commend the attitude of skilled people who are keen to save lives and reduce the professional staff, who make the extra effort on the effects of any injuries people may have suffered? weekends, whether on Saturday or Sunday mornings, to go out and join the volunteers. Mr Nardella made a big play of a member of Parliament being appointed to the board of either I have been a member of the CF A for 35 years. As I the CFA or the MFB. The legislation clearly points said to my colleague Mr Davis, I joined when I was out that if a member of Parliament who has the skills three! I think back to the times when we had what is appointed to either board, he or she cannot be we called a trailer tanker, which we pulled behind a paid. The legislation does no more and no less than tractor using a short length of chain. I have seen that. some of the modern equipment the Waitchie fire brigade has. Some of the modern equipment is Under the bill the board of the MFB, or the complicated and sophisticated. I am sure my father Metropolitan Fire and Emergency Services Board, as and those of his ilk would have been surprised to see it will be known, will change from a representative it in their day. I commend the professional officers board to a skills-based board, and there are very who join with the volunteers to make sure everyone good reasons for that. Mr Nardella asked about the is up to the mark with that equipment so they can differences between the CF A and the new act quickly and decisively when there is a fire. Metropolitan Fire and Emergency Services Board. If we look at them closely, we can see that they are The emergency situations created by the recent fires totally different organisations. On the one hand, the in New South Wales and Victoria point up the value CF A has a small number of highly skilled officers of the training provided by the CF A and the and a large number of highly skilled volunteers. It Metropolitan Fire Brigade. I was recently invited to has different tasks and roles to those of the an open day held by the Mildura fire brigade. The Metropolitan Fire and Emergency Services Board, members of the brigade proudly showed off their which consists of highly skilled professional officers sophisticated new truck, which is worth $400 000. with no volunteers. There is also a difference in the There was a large crowd of people in attendance, funding of the two organisations. The differences which supports the theory that our volunteers and between the two boards are easily explained. The professional people have community support. I also differences give the lie to the rumour that they will recognise the CFA auxiliaries, which do an be merged, as my colleague Mr Baxter clearly enormous amount of work in raising money and pointed out. underpinning the family atmosphere of the Country Fire Authority. They do a wonderful job. The bill is straightforward. It amends the Country Fire Authority Act and the Metropolitan Fire I know there is a bit of tension associated with the Brigades Act and addresses a number of other industry brigades, but I think it is fair and issues. The first issue I will touch on is the industry reasonable to allow those joint ventures to take fire brigades, which are not new. As I said before, place. The Victorian Plantations Corporation will they have an historical basis. For more than 30 years lead the way in bolstering that historical alliance, the APM team has worked in very well with the and we will see better service, better control and CFA in the forests of Morwell, Traralgon and other better emergency responses to fires. It is worth parts of Gippsland. Industry brigades are a very pointing out that the industry brigades will be under practical way of putting in place the sound the control of the CFA - and you could not have it teamwork that is necessary in all emergency any other way. After the emergencies are over and services. Of the 1255 CF A brigades, 250 are urban the mopping up begins, as Mr Baxter said, there will and the rest, rural. The joint ventures spread the be a commonsense realisation of the tasks involved. load and the responsibility and make sense. Obviously, the industry people who look after the plantations will be far better suited to blacking out We must recognise the efforts of the the fires; and the CF A will benefit from being able to 80 000 volunteers and the 800 profeSSional staff who get its vehicles back on standby to deal with other link them up. I was glad to hear Mr Baxter speak emergencies that may occur. It is important to have a about the pressure on the volunteers. In my coordinated and clear chain of command. The electorate, which contains largely broadacre service has to be effective and responsible, and we farming, there are fewer farming families than there must utilise all the resources we have. I am sure this were because smaller farms have been bought up is the best and only way to do that. and converted into larger holdings. It is now a strain FIRE AUTHORITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

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As has been proved in the past, because industry Hon. S. M. NGUYEN (Melbourne West) - I brigades are on the spot they are often able to oppose the bill and support the reasoned quickly reach the front line and take the edge off the amendment. Although the opposition supports a emergency while waiting for the CFA support number of measures contained in the bill, it is troops to come along and assist. I am sure the concerned about the complete and direct control of concept will spread through other industries. The the Minister for Police and Emergency Services over ability to make that first strike is most important; the Country Fire Authority and the Metropolitan then the two brigades can work together to mop up. Fire Brigades Board, which is to be renamed the Metropolitan Fire and Emergency Services Board, I have also had a bit to do with municipal fire the changed make-up of the MFESB and the prevention plans. I am reminded of the appointment of six commissioners to form two stitch-in-time approach to roads that Mr Baxter appeals tribunals - one for the MFESB and one for introduced while he was Minister for Roads and the CFA. Finally, the opposition is concerned about Ports. A stitch-in-time approach to fire prevention is the potential privatisation of the fire brigades. absolutely crucial. I strongly urge government members to consider the The municipal fire prevention committee is impact of these changes on two of the best invaluable for its advice and assistance regarding the firefighting services in the world. The MFB is one of removal of fuel and other problems associated with the best full-time career brigades in Australia, if not fires. With larger municipalities different fire risks the best. Similarly, the CFA is the world's largest are emerging. In emergencies it is important that and best volunteer fire service. It includes more than people are able to note the water points and refuges. 80 000 volunteers and 800 professional support staff. I remember during the Geelong fires sports ovals Why does the government seek to dramatically were used as refuges. These issues are a vital part of change the operation of these two excellent fire the jigsaw of reducing and managing the fire risk. services? In 1994 the former Public Bodies Review Committee made a number of recommendations Previous speakers referred to the skills base of the about the MFB and the CF A. Recommendation 6 of Metropolitan Fire Brigade and the new structure will its report states: bring a wide range of management skills. The Public Bodies Review Committee investigation into the fire The committee recommends the Metropolitan Fire services was an interesting inquiry. Its report Brigades Board remain a statutory body. recommended that the new name of the Metropolitan Fire Brigades Board be the Clause 5 clearly disregards that recommendation. Metropolitan Fire and Emergency Services Board, New section 6A states: which is appropriate for the broad skills of the new (1) The authority is subject to the general direction and organisation. It will have a high level of skills control of the minister in the performance of its besides those required to fight fires. The president of functions and the exercise of its powers. the new board will be part time and the chief executive officer will be chosen by the board and not (2) The minister may from time to time give written the minister. The organisation and structure of the directions to the authority. MFB will be simplified and made more flexible. The These provisions mean that the day-to-day running bill also deals with ministerial powers and the of both fire services is conditional on the minister appeal process, which is crisp, decisive and fair for not disagreeing with any action they take. The the staff of both organisations. minister's second-reading speech, reported in Hansard of 3 April under the heading 'Power of I commend the bill to the house and add the direction', states: qualification that it is always difficult to change the operation of emergency services, especially when The bill does not give the minister direct power of they have been in place for many years. The CFA is a direction over the chief officer of either the Country volunteer force, but I appeal, as Mr Baxter did, for Fire Authority or the Metropolitan Fire and Emergency cooperation and constructive communication to Service. allow the changes to the emergency services that are recognised as among the best in the world to be even If this was the minister's intent why was new better in the future. section 6A included in the bill. Either the minister is deliberately misleading the house or he is trying to con the oppOSition, the media and the public about FIRE AUTHORITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

682 COUNCIL Tuesday, 13 May 1997 the level of control he seeks over the CFA and the Metropolitan Fire Brigade is a world-class fire MFESB. I assume new section 6A means exactly service, dearly, the decisions made by its board have what it says - that the CF A and the MFESB are been good ones. Otherwise the brigade would not be subject to the general direction and control of the as good as it currently is. minister. If the provision is not the intent of the minister as outlined on 3 April, he should redraft it. The minister should make clear exactly where the However, if it does convey the minister's real intent performance of the board has been lacking and what he should correct his statement to Parliament on specifically has prompted a new structure for the 3 April, otherwise he will stand accused of board to be included in this bill. The insurance misleading the house. Contrary to what the minister industry and local government both make has already stated, the bill's intent is aimed at Significant financial contributions to both the CF A silencing the government's critics within the MFESB and the MFB. The insurance industry contributes and the CFA. about three-quarters of the total funding for both services, with local councils providing a larger part I understand the MFB and its chief officer have of the remainder. I believe both those groups should voiced their criticism of Intergraph and the CF A has be represented on the board. refused to go on-line with it. Clause 5 will give the minister the power to force the CF A to accept the Clause 19 specifically permits members of both the Intergraph service, warts and all. Legislative Assembly and this house to become members of the newly constituted board provided The next area of concern is the changed make-up of they do not receive remuneration. What role will the renamed Metropolitan Fire and Emergency politicians have on the Metropolitan Fire and Services Board. The current Metropolitan Fire Emergency Services Board? Contrary to what the Brigades Board is comprised of two representatives Premier has occasionally said about firefighters, I do from the Property Council of Australia, two not question the commitment of the vast number to representatives from local councils, two deliver a Victoria safe from fires. The rank and file representatives from state government and one firefighters are strongly supportive of building the employee representative. All have a major stake in MFB into one of the best fire services in the world. the service and should be included in the decisions The employees should retain membership of the the board makes. board and not be locked out of the decision-making process. The bill provides no guarantees that the Property Council, local government or the employees will be The opposition is concerned about the at all represented on the newly constituted establishment, in clause 10, of the Country Fire seven-member board. At page 48 of Hansard of AuthOrity Appeals Commission, and in clause 54, of 3 April, when describing the new structure of the the Metropolitan Fire Brigades Appeals board, the Minister for Police and Emergency Commission. Under this bill the commissions would Services said: deal with appeals relating to transfer, promotion and disciplinary procedures. These issues are The structure of the board will change from being currently dealt with by a tribunal consisting of a representative to one based on specific skills. This will magistrate, a person appointed by the board and a bring greater management expertise to the board. firefighters employee representative.

There are no guarantees that the new board will The tribunal has ensured that the interests of all have greater management expertise because there those affected by its decisions are represented: the are no guidelines for the appointment of its employer via the board's representative, the members. The minister stood in another place and employees via a representative whom they elect and declared his support and admiration for the quality an impartial representative in the form of a and effectiveness of the MFB. He is justifiably proud, magistrate. That is the fairest way for appeals to be as is the opposition, that Victoria has one of the best dealt with. The tribunal's members give their time at fire services in the world. And yet by proposing to no cost to either the fire services or the taxpayer. change the structure of the board, for the reasons outlined earlier, he is effectively signalling no However, under the bill six commissioners will be confidence in the current board - namely, that it directly appointed on a part-time basis by the does not have the management expertise and skills government. The minister has yet to outline how required. But, if the government agrees that the FIRE AUTHORITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

Tuesday, 13 May 1997 COUNCIL 683 much they will be paid and by whom -the fire Paragraph (a) of the reasoned amendment deals services or the government. with the essence of the bill, which is the restructure of the MFB. Representatives of the insurance Many times we have heard this coalition claim that industry, the Property Council and local paid government appointees are a cost-effective and government should be on the board. The bill efficient way of running a number of organisations. restructures the board to remove certain people But when the price of maintaining these appointees because the government sees an advantage in the is examined closely, it winds up costing taxpayers board being skills based rather than representative more. These commissioners will prove to be another based. The reasoned amendment is nonsense. It is example of this. nothing more than an excuse for the opposition to ramble on about its favourite topic: the Finally, the opposition believes that if this bill is featherbedding of jobs for its union mates. The passed without amendment these measures may reasoned amendment will be totally rejected by the seriously undermine the effectiveness of two of the house because it is irrelevant to the purposes of the best fire services in the world. I therefore urge bill. government members to seriously consider the impact of those aspects of the bill and encourage the I have pleasure in speaking on the bill because a minister to re-examine the bill. couple of years ago I was a member of the former Public Bodies Review Committee that presented a Hon. C. A. STRONG (Higinbotham) - I support report about the MFB, CFA and other emergency the Fire Authorities (Amendment) Bill and services. Many of the recommendations in that strenuously reject the reasoned amendment. I would report have been adopted by the government and firstly like to deal with some of the issues raised in incorporated in the bill. One of the key findings of the amendment. Paragraph (c), in essence, says that the committee was picked up by the government no further action should be taken on this bill until and put in the bill. The committee found no the government initiates a full inquiry into the justification for or benefit from an amalgamation of privatisation of emergency services, dispatch and so the two fire services - that is, the CFA and the MFB. on until - this is the key line - it has assessed the The committee recommended strongly against capacity of the government to properly manage amalgamation. The bill cements that government outsourcing and privatisation projects. view.

That part of Mr Nardella's reasoned amendment is The committee found that consumers want a absolutely ludicrous when you look at the telephone number to ring when an emergency or performance following privatisation of, for example, crisis occurs. They want to know that the the ports, the electricity industry and the Grain appropriate service will be dispatched if that Elevators Board. The privatisations have been number is rung and that the appropriate service will carried out with skill and to the enormous benefit of work effectively at the scene to deal with the the state. They have been ticked off by the emergency or crisis. The committee found that if Auditor-General and in every way have been proven callers in the metropolitan area rang the MFB, a to have been done extremely well. Any move to provider quickly dealt with the crisis and the same delay the passage of this bill until the government's applied to the CF A in rural areas. The public had no performance in this area is assessed is ludicrous. concern so long as those criteria were met. The reliance on the principles I have outlined - that is, a Paragraph (b) of the reasoned amendment says the common telephone number, a speedy response by government should clearly reject privatisation or the the nearest appliance and an effective performance outsourcing of duties to be carried out by on the scene - has already been picked up by the firefighters. The government does not intend government. One change about which people may outsourcing the work of firefighters. However, their be unaware is the return of the 000 emergency clerical and administrative tasks could effectively be telephone number. Now Victorian consumers have done by those not needed in the field where fires are only one number to ring whereas previously they fought. Anything that would put that aim or had one for each of the emergency numbers - objective out of bounds is ludicrous. We should be police, fire and ambulance. examining anything that will allow trained firefighters to fight fires rather than being stuck Another committee recommendation that was behind desks doing clerical work. adopted concerns emergency services communications. Now Victorians have an effective FIRE AUTHORITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

684 COUNCil- Tuesday, 13 May 1997 provider they can telephone. That organisation will The committee said the board structure was really dispatch in the quickest possible way in the not appropriate in that it was made up of a series of metropolitan area the appropriate fire, police or interest groups, such as assurance companies, ambulance service. unions and so on, and that the board would be better served by members who had appropriate The bill deals with a couple of other issues arising skills relating to all issues of response and fire from the PBRC report. Earlier I referred to the prevention; that the most efficient, effective and satisfactory arrangements that exist in respect of the appropriate way was a skill-based board rather than autonomy of the CFA and MFB. A key reason why a representative-based board. That is a major part of the PBRC saw that as absolutely appropriate and not the bill. I applaud that. in need of change was that the minister set the basic policy on how those organisations would operate so I also applaud the part of the bill that provides that that similar standards would apply. The community the appointment of the new chief executive does not wants similar standards in emergency responses. make that person part of the board; he is responsible The minister set the standards and the two to the board rather than being part of it. Anyone independent authorities - CF A and MFB - who has been involved in any sort of governance adopted those standards and structured their arrangements would agree that it is clearly organisations through independent boards. They preferable to have a board that is fundamentally can therefore apply those standards in the most responsible and a chief executive who is responsible effective and efficient way for their customers. The to the board rather than mixing the two roles, as is bill achieves that aim. done under the present structure, and making the chief executive officer a key member of the board. The debate has discussed the bill's empowering the That makes it very much more difficult for the board minister to direct. It deals only with the standards, to make policy decisions. Again, that was a the delivery of services and those I have been recommendation of the former Public Bodies Review speaking about; standards have to be set by the Committee, and I applaud it as a major reform. government. It is nonsense for the opposition to suggest that the emergency bodies have no All in all, the bill Significantly advances the autonomy. The statutory authorities are effectiveness of fire prevention services in Victoria. It autonomous; they have their own management does not in any way, as has been suggested, remove structures and boards. Their levels of service, the autonomy of the CFA and the MFB. Clearly the performance standards, and so on are matters the recommendation of the former Public Bodies Review government expects to set. The second-reading Committee was that they should and must remain speech refers to statewide considerations in that autonomous. The bill cements that position, and I regard. commend it to the house.

Other progressive aspects of the bill deal with Hon. PHILIP DAVIS (Gippsland) - I support prevention. One issue the former PBRC spent time the bill and oppose the reasoned amendment. considering concerned authorities doing their jobs Previous government speakers, Mr Baxter, properly. Their jobs were not simply about dealing Mr Bishop and Mr Strong, mounted constructive with events when they happened. The committee arguments as to why the house should resolve to believed emergency services should try to ensure support the bill. However, I shall add some brief such occurrences were prevented. The bill tackles comments on important matters in the context of those aspects in dealing with municipal fire this debate that have been raised with me by protection plans. It gives the board the power to constituents. extend its role to prevent emergencies arising. There is now clearly a responsibility on it to go out and My comments will be limited to matters affecting the look at prevention rather than just being there when Country Fire Authority, because that is the area in a problem arises. which I have a particular interest. The CF A is an important organisation in regional Victoria, not least The bill picks up many of the issues raised in the in Gippsland, where there is a significant history of recommendations of the former Public Bodies fire hazard. Gippsland has a viable and active CF A Review Committee. A key recommendation, which I structure. The CF A is an important part of the touched on in my opening comments and which is community, and it enables rural people to make a the subject of paragraph (a) of Mr Nardella's contribution to community service. I pay tribute to reasoned amendment, is the structure of the board. the commitment of friends and neighbours of mine FIRE AUTHORITIES (AMENDMENT) BILL

Tuesday, 13 May 1997 COUNCIL 685 who are actively involved in the CFA and have been plantation/forestry industry. To the extent that it is for many years; their degree of commitment to possible the private plantation/ forestry industry serving the community and making a huge personal will expand over the next several years, and we have sacrifice to do so amazes me. I wish to recognise that the prospect of the restructure of the Victorian in this debate. Plantations Corporation in the longer term. With all these dynamics it is appropriate to ensure that Hon. W. R. Bn:ter - Rightly so. proper hazard management arrangements are in place. Hon. PHILIP DAVIS - I have had the pleasure of being involved with the CF A. To my surprise, a It is evident that in the Gippsland region an industry year or so ago I received my 20-year badge. That is brigade operated by Australian Paper - which, to nothing like the contribution of Mr Bishop, of the best of my knowledge, has been in hand for course, who claimed to have joined at age 3 and between 30 and 40 years as part of its forestry recently received his 35-year badge! I would not management practices - has worked very make such a claim, but I may have been very young successfully. Brigades have been integrated into the when I joined 20 years ago. CFA's response force. There is a strong competitive element among the members of the brigades and last However, the point is that concern about the year I had the pleasure of observing one of the minister's power of direction has been expressed by company's training exercises in which the local some CF A members in my region and formally brigades in the region participated in various raised in this debate. Because of the responses given contests against each other and received recognition by my colleagues I will not reiterate the detail of the as appropriate. That demonstrates a strong rebuttal, but it is my view that the ministerial power commitment by the employees, not just to of direction is clearly necessary. As the minister discharging their duties to the company but also to responsible for the direction of emergency services is the ethic that is common to all CFA brigade accountable to Parliament, that minister needs to members. have the ability to give policy direction to both the MFB and the CF A. It is inappropriate to hold the I turn to concerns about the growth of private government to account while limiting its power to forestry, particularly initiatives to secure an give appropriate general direction. That does not expansion of plantation forestry in Victoria and mean the minister would seek the power to step in Australia over the medium term. Agreement at the and manage the organisations in a hands-on way. state and commonwealth levels on a target of Indeed, the power of direction provided in the bill trebling plantation forestry by 2020 has important would not enable that day-to-day intervention. implications. Victoria has been trying to establish a Clearly the responsibility for the management of proper framework for that to occur. In 1996 forestry emergency situations would rest with officers of the rights legislation was introduced to secure the respective brigades. separate ownership of the plantations from the land. Separately an appropriate Code of Forest Practices I confirm the recommendation of the former Public was introduced which ensures the integrity of Bodies Review Committee, which was a bipartisan environmental management. committee of Parliament, that it is appropriate that the power of direction be legislated, and this bill Another important initiative, which was announced seeks to achieve that. There is no intention to attack by the Minister for Agriculture and Resources on the rural community in any way by interceding with 21 October last year, involved the development of a power of direction. I am sure CF A volunteers the private forestry task force representing the would not even be aware on a day-to-day basis of forestry industry, foresters, farmers and investors. those general powers of direction being used by the The task force is chaired by Mr Angus Pollock, who minister to decree policy. is an employee of Australian Paper in Gippsland, and will report to the minister on arrangements to The more substantial matter I wish to discuss is the better facilitate the introduction of significantly more importance of industry brigades, which was also plantation forestry in the state. raised with me in the context of this debate. It is important for us to understand why the concept of In addition, the state and commonwealth industry brigades needs to be introduced. It is clear governments have each committed SS million per that we have a declining population in rural areas. annum, a total of $10 million over a four-year At the same time we have a significantly developing period, for the development of farm forestry LIVESTOCK DISEASE CONTROL (AMENDMENT) BILL

686 COUNCIL Tuesday, 13 May 1997 through regional plantation committees. Although The DEPUTY PRESIDENT - Order! I am of the each of those initiatives is important, the opinion that the second reading of this bill requires achievement of the goal of the trebling of plantation to be passed by an absolute majority. In order that I forestry resources by 2020 will require the may ascertain that an absolute majority has been recruitment of 20 000 hectares per annum and obtained, I ask honourable members who are in $3 billion to $4 billion in capital investment. favour to stand in their places.

The Significant dynamic framework of private Required number of members having risen: forestry will put enormous pressure on existing infrastructure in relation to the management of Motion agreed to by absolute majority. wildfire in rural areas. Given that the government has separated out the plantation management Read second time; by leave, proceeded to third function into a corporate structure through the reading. Victorian Plantations Corporation, it will not be possible to sustain in the long run the state Third reading government's commitment to managing those plantations for the public good. It is obvious that Motion agreed to by absolute majority. that management must be put on a commercial basis and that the commercial forest industry operators, Read third time. public or private, must make a contribution to that end. With those few remarks I indicate my support Remaining stages for the bill. I am sure the house will vote against the reasoned amendment. Passed remaining stages.

House divided on omission (members in favour LIVESTOCK DISEASE CONTROL vote no): (AMENDMENT) BILL

Ayes, 31 Second reading Asher,Ms Furletti, Mr Ashman,Mr Hallam,Mr Debate resumed from 24 April; motion of Atkinson, Mr Hartigan, Mr Hon. G. R. CRAIGE (Minister for Roads and Ports). Baxter, Mr Katsambanis, Mr Best, Mr Knowles,Mr Hon. PAT POWER (Jika Jika) - The Livestock Birrell, Mr Lucas, Mr Disease Control (Amendment) Bill is an important Bishop, Mr Lucicins, Mrs piece of legislation. As a consequence of our highly Boardman, Mr Powell,Mrs skilled staff in the parliamentary library I am able to Bowden,Mr Ross, Or refer to the Bills Digest. That will ensure two things: Brideson, Mr Smith,Mr that my comments are accurate and that they are Cover,Mr Stoney,Mr much shorter than otherwise might have been the Craige, Mr Strong,Mr case. Davis, Mr D. Mcl. Varty,Mrs Davis, Mr P. R. (Teller) Wells, Or The purpose of the bill is to amend the Livestock de Fegely, Mr Wilding, Mrs (Teller) Disease Control Act 1994 to strengthen the financial Forwood,Mr position of the Cattle Compensation Fund. The bill also establishes the Sheep and Goat Compensation Noes, 9 Fund for livestock affected by Johne's disease. The Gould, Miss Power, Mr (Teller) control of livestock disease has been a significant Hogg,Mrs Pullen, Mr issue in Victoria from our earliest days. On 12 June McLean, Mrs Theophanous, Mr 1855 the Legislative Council passed 'an act for Nardella,Mr Walpole, Mr (Teller) preventing the extension of the disease scab in Nguyen,Mr sheep'. The Diseases in Stock Act 1872 and the Prevention of Diseases of Animals Act 1864 reveal Pair how far back the Livestock Disease Control Act can Smith,Ms &en, Mr be traced. That act consolidated five pre-existing acts and implemented the 1989 national uniform Amendment negatived. LIVESTOCK DISEASE CONTROL (AMENDMENT) BILL

Tuesday, 13 May 1997 COUNCIL 687 recommendations on complementary legislation for flocks. Government members may have updated the control of exotic animal diseases. figures. The eradication program which the bill will put in place could result in entire flocks being Few members in this house would doubt the destroyed and farmers being unable to replace them extreme importance of the agricultural industry to for two summers. Taking into account the Victoria's economy. Australian Bureau of Statistics compensation that is available, all honourable figures for 1994-95 show that agriculture was valued members understand that such an eventuality at more than $5.2 billion. Victoria's share of farm would be devastating for farmers. income was $909 million - 31.5 per cent of the total of Australian farm income for the 1994-95 financial The Victorian Farmers Federation has played its part year. Victoria's largest export commodities for in the debate on the problem by supporting the 1995-96 were $1.364 billion for dairy products; government program. The VFF has done so because $1083 million for wool and textile products, and of international concerns about mad cow disease. $656 million for meat and meat preparations. The There is understandable fear about a health scare need to treat this legislation seriously in the context because Johne's disease has been associated with the of the economic value of the livestock industry for incurable human Crohn's disease. It is important Victoria cannot be stated too strongly. that Parliament puts on the record the fact that no causal link has been established between Johne's Johne's disease is a contagious bacterial disease of disease and the incurable Crohn's disease. the intestinal tract most commonly occurring in ruminants such as cattle and sheep. It was first The Victorian Farmers Federation also argues that described in 1895 by a German veterinarian and it is the reasonably low prevalence of ovine Johne's from his name that the disease gets its name. The disease in Victoria provides a window of disease in cattle is referred to as bovine Johne's opportunity for its eradication. The VFF argues that disease and in sheep as ovine Johne's disease. As the availability of compensation gives farmers the people from the land would know, Johne's disease is option of culling their flocks and ridding themselves a wasting disease. Regardless of how well it might of infected animals. The VFF says that future be fed or feeding an infected animal cannot properly on-farm losses Australia wide are estimated to be as absorb nutrients. The difficulty with the disease is high as $92 million by the year 2010. that throughout the process of infection no visible signs are apparent. It is only at the clinical stage that Honourable members will be aware of some animals suffer severe weight loss, diarrhoea and alternative views on the treatment of ovine Johne's inevitable death, because unfortunately the disease disease and the implementation of the government's is incurable. By the time signs of illness are visible program. The opposition wishes to move a reasoned other livestock may well have been infected. amendment to show its concern about the management of the program. I point out that if the Johne's disease has been of enormous importance in reasoned amendment does not enjoy the support of rural Victoria and members from the government members, the opposition will not oppose the benches who represent rural electorates and who legislation. I move: have an interest in agricultural matters would be fully aware of how much difficulty and trauma the That all the words after 'That' be omitted with the view disease has caused farmers and the agricultural of inserting in place thereof 'this bill be withdrawn and community. The payouts to farmers who have had redrafted to provide for the suspension of the sheep to cull stock as a consequence of Johne's infestation slaughter program until such time as a full has drained the reserves of the Cattle Compensation independent cost-benefit analysis of the eradication Fund, the income of which is generated by a levy on program has been conducted'. all cattle sales. I will address my comments to the reasoned I now turn to the control measures that have been amendment in particular. It is important that the implemented in Victoria. Ovine Johne's disease was house understands that the reasoned amendment is initially detected in Australia on a New South Wales targeted at the cost-benefit analysis aspect of the property in 1980, but it was not until November 1995 program. Government members may be able to that it was diagnosed on Victorian farms. Since the provide up-te-date information on that issue. commencement of the ovine Johne's disease program in Victoria in early January, farmers have Some of the alternative views on the treatment of slaughtered over 70 000 sheep from 32 Victorian ovine Johne's disease show that the government's LIVESTOCK DISEASE CONTROL (AMENDMENT) BILL

688 COUNCIL Tuesday, 13 May 1997 action is by no means universally supported by the recommendations and advice from the advisory sheep industry either in Victoria or elsewhere. committee that directs the allocation of funds to Johne's disease is prevalent around the world, yet various programs that protect the integrity and countries such as New Zealand have not gone to the health of the cattle herd in Victoria. I will not deal expense of eradication. An economic evaluation of extensively with those amendments, save to say that the J ohne' s disease control options for the Victorian they are necessary to ensure the liquidity and better dairy industry was published in early 1996. It found management of the Cattle Compensation Fund. that: I refer particularly to ovine Johne's disease, which Options for dealing with Johne's disease are limited Mr Power introduced in a balanced way, pointing under current policy. out the dichotomy of views on the best way to administer a program to manage the incidence of the The debate on the treatment of ovine Johne's disease disease, which I shall refer to as OJD. I first became has included criticism of the lack of consultation aware of OJD in the late 1980s following a discussion with the community, the lack of scientific evidence within the Victorian Farmers Federation. One of our for the Victorian approach and inadequate representatives, Mr Bill Whitehead, the then compensation payments. It has highlighted the chairman of the VFF sheep meats committee and a problems involved in keeping Victoria free from delegate to the Sheepmeats Council of Australia, ovine Johne's disease if other states do not adopt a came back from national meetings and reported to similar approach. Of interest are the compensation us about a serious disease known as OJD. It was rates being offered to farmers at the moment - irrelevant to Victorian sheep producers at that time $25 for each ewe, $100 for each ram, $15 for each and was not taken as a significant threat. It was seen lamb, $18 for each unprocessable lamb and $15 for as a New South Wales problem, a state where all each wether. sorts of serious things happened that we could never comprehend. A recently formed subcommittee of the Australian Sheep Vets Society has been critical of the haste in However, when insidious diseases such as 0]0 are de-stocking properties with confirmed cases of ovine first identified, members of the community are Johne's disease, questioning the scientific validity of invariably not properly informed. As a result the such a radical eradication program. Compensation diseases either create enormous anxiety or are levels may discourage some farmers from coming ignored to the point where they become dangerous forward, and there is a need for further detailed because people do not take them seriously. In this data. The absence of a reliable test to identify case the disease relates specifically to sheep and infected flocks and the lack of consultation with clearly has the potential to have a profound impact independent vets is also of concern to the Australian on the viability of flocks in this state. Sheep Vets Society. Mr Power referred to New Zealand, where the I know a number of honourable members are disease is endemic. Even if the farming community anxious to comment on this important piece of and the government of that country decided to legislation. I ask them to take note of the excellent implement some action, its sheep flocks are beyond Bills Digest provided by the library, which gives an saving. It is now impossible for New Zealanders to accurate and relatively brief picture of the situation. react because they have no protocols in place. In I conclude by indicating that our reasoned New South Wales the first infected flock was amendment is not an attack on the need to address a identified in 1981. Today 160 flocks are known to be major industry problem but is limited to arguing for infected, and that has occurred as a direct result of a full independent cost-benefit analysis of the the failure of successive governments and the eradication program. industry to come to grips with the potential impact of OJD on the New South Wales sheep flock and the Hon. PHILIP DAVIS (Gippsland) - I support wool and meat-producing industries. the bill and oppose the reasoned amendment. My comments will be brief and to the point and as The Victorian government determined to work with succinct as the comments of Mr Power. The bill is industry to control and eradicate the disease; but the very important to the livestock industry - in government gained the industry'S support only after particular, the sheep industry. It deals in part with considerable consultation. Importantly, there is now the Cattle Compensation Fund, to which some national acclaim for the actions it has taken. At its minor adjustments will be made based on 28 February meeting, the Agriculture Resource LIVESTOCK DISEASE CONTROL (AMENDMENT) BILL

Tuesday, 13 May 1997 COUNCIL 689

Ministers Council of Australia and New Zealand maximise our opportunities to understand the extent strongly backed the Victorian initiatives to the extent of the disease and control any further outbreaks. that it is now anticipated that they will be adopted as part of a national scheme. Other steps need to be taken. We need to increase vendor declarations as part of a national scheme of The importance of the disease cannot be measured policy assurance. This will be a matter of just in terms of the data Mr Power referred to. He negotiations between the states through the pointed out the size and nature of the wool and ministerial council, but there is a commitment to sheep meat industries and the potential economic proceed in this way. Without those quality impact of the disease, but he did not refer to the assurance programs it will be impossible to impact the disease has on individual farmers. I am guarantee the integrity of our sheep flock. conscious of the impact of the disease because a number of infected flocks have been identified in the I conclude my remarks on this note. Although the Gippsland region. At the end of March, opposition has expressed concern on behalf of those 42 properties had been found to have flocks infected who doubt the government's ability to control the with OJD. Of those, 22 were in Gippsland, 13 were in disease, members of the industry, not just north-east Victoria, 14 were in north-west Victoria collectively but at the farm gate, are clearly grateful and 3 were in south-west Victoria. for and appreciative of the initiatives taken by industry leaders and the government to limit the I am closely involved with a number of economic damage to the sheep and wool industries constituents - in some cases I have known them and, more importantly, to the individual nearly all my life - whose flocks have been affected woolgrowers and sheep producers who are by the disease. These people have been in the threatened by the disease. sheep-breeding and wool-growing industries for many years. The extent of the personal devastation I urge the house to support the bill. Although cannot be fully explained to the house. It is Mr Power will not be persuaded to withdraw his devastating for farmers who in the main are very reasoned amendment, I am sure he will understand good farmers in a traditional sense. They care for that the best form of risk management is to limit the their land and their stocks and place that care ahead spread of the disease. Ovine Johne's disease is an of financial return. incurable wasting disease of which we have insufficient technical understanding but which over Year after year they commit significant resources to time, like most of our animal health problems, will their properties to improve their flocks, yet they now be met by an intellectual challenge from the find their life's work has reached the point where veterinary community and Victoria will be able to those properties need to be completely de-stocked to better manage the disease. eradicate this insidious disease, which is causing significant stock losses. Some estimates put the Hon. B. W. BISHOP (North Western) - I am number of infected flocks as low as 2 per cent, but pleased to support the Livestock Disease Control the general experience in Gippsland is that 15 per (Amendment) Bill. When the agriculture and cent of flocks have been affected, with some facing resources bill committee examined the bill, it looked significantly higher losses. It is important to at its purpose and decided there was a need to act recognise that this is a calamity not just for the wool quickly and show some leadership in the proposed and sheep industry but, given the social cost, for the test and slaughter program. I will contain my community and the individuals concerned. remarks and be as brief as possible on ovine Johne's disease. The government's initiatives, which were designed to deal with the disease before it became a major Why was the bill not introduced earlier? It catastrophe, were timely. I commend the Minister recognises that the disease is a real threat to for Agriculture and Resources for acting so Victoria's primary industry, an industry that is vital promptly. The timely initiatives will limit the to both Victoria and Australia. The value of development of the disease while the studies production was clearly enunciated earlier by proposed by the opposition and members of the Mr Power. The value of sheep and lambs veterinary profession are undertaken. It is important slaughtered in 1995 was $263 401000 and wool was to recognise the need to better evaluate the extent of worth $632714000. I compliment the parliamentary the disease, but the government believes the library on its Bills Digest. As with a number of other trace-back and trace-forward arrangements will bills, the library has produced an excellent document LIVESTOCK DISEASE CONTROL (AMENDMENT) BILL

690 COUNCIL Tuesday, 13 May 1997 that provides a lot of helpful information for itself to $1 million in seeding funds to start the members. program.

Victoria's primary industry must be protected. If Interestingly, ovine Johne's disease was discovered Victoria does not introduce quality control programs in New South Wales in 1981 and in Victoria in 1995. obviously its export markets will be threatened. The government reached its current position Even if the current overseas tariff barriers are raised, following discussions with the VFF. Originally, regardless of the views of Australia's international 17 flocks were identified with the problem and now buyers, Victoria should reject the New Zealand about 30 flocks have been identified. A further solution of 'living' with its problem of Johne's 80 flocks were monitored and tested and found to be disease. For a country that has been so innovative disease free. and forward thinking in its marketing, particularly export marketing, I am surprised at its approach. The bill substantially underpins the vendor declaration in the market - an approach that will be Victoria now has the opportunity to grasp an absolutely essential if Victoria and Australia are to opportunity to move ahead and get in front of this compete in the difficult and tough export market. particularly difficult disease. The Victorian Farmers However, it is important that these programs are Federation (VFF) has shown great leadership. The industry driven. Although they may have the issue has proved difficult for the federation but the support of government, I emphasise that the government has established a joint venture and also programs must be industry driven. This program shown leadership. Farmers would like to see a has been put together as a result of a joint venture national program across Australia so that exports between the government and the Victorian meat have one quality control and one disease control industry. I can do no more than refer the house to system in place. the final paragraph of the minister's second-reading speech in which he states: Tonight it is my responsibility to raise some of the difficulties the committee faced, because Victoria The initiatives have the support of industry and have needs to put these programs into place. For example, been generally well received in Victoria and the other there will be a 9-cent-a-head levy on sheep and states. The scheme will help maintain the favourable goats. The area I represent along the Murray River disease status of the Victorian cattle and sheep and goat also services properties from New South Wales. A industries and this is in line with government policy of high percentage of the stock offered for sale at the enhancing exports of livestock and livestock products. Yelta and Swan Hill saleyards comes from New South Wales. So Victoria made a tough decision to I commend the bill to the house. apply a levy to stock from New South Wales. Even though the committee had a good debate and Hon. P. R. HALL (Gippsland) - I shall make researched the issue, it came down with the view some brief comments on the Livestock Disease that, as with many other things Victoria does, it Control (Amendment) Bill, especially the should act for the betterment of Australia. No doubt establishment of the Sheep and Goat Compensation the bill will lead the way and increase the pressure Fund, which is aimed at addressing the problems for a national program in this area. associated with ovine Johne's disease in Victoria. Later I will comment on the reasoned amendment The bill also provides for compensation, which will moved by Mr Power and base my comments on the be generated by the 9-cent levy on sheep and goats. direct experience I have had from speaking with The fund will be similar to the Cattle Compensation East Gippsland farmers with infected flocks. As Fund and it will be the responsibility of a committee mentioned by other speakers, ovine Johne's disease drawn up from the farming industry. The committee has emerged as a major problem in the eastern part will also advise on the levy. of my electorate, especially in the Tambo Valley where many of the infected flocks were found. Many I note that the organising committee recommended a farmers made the heartbreaking decision to have rise in stamp duty to better reflect today's needs and their entire flocks slaughtered. It is a major disease. markets for cattle and calves. As previous speakers In many cases, the farmers had been involved for have said, ovine Johne's disease is a dreadful, generations in sheep farming and it was a tough, insidious wasting disease that cannot be cured. It heartbreaking - but also very responsible - must be addressed. The government has committed decision to have their entire flocks slaughtered. LIVESTOCK DISEASE CO:"lTROL (AMENDMENT) BILL

Tuesday, 13 May 1997 COUNCIL 691

Before commenting on the East Gippsland situation, of the problem evident in, for instance, New I pay tribute to the parliamentary library for its Bills Zealand. The measures in the bill, which will Digest, which is compiled by the parliamentary encourage farmers to slaughter their stock and assist library research service and available to all with the eradication of the disease, are the only way members. It is an excellent document, I think the to go. second of four the service has produced to this stage. During the last sitting I commented on its work on I have also spoken to constituents about the Community Services Bill- an informative compensation being made available. Some may look document that provided a thorough background for at the compensation rates and say they are members on the circumstances leading to the minimal- $25 for ewes, $100 for rams, $16 for legislation being debated. I agree with other lambs, $18 for unprocessable lambs and $15 for speakers that such documents lead to a more wethers. Those rates may not sound high and, informed debate by members and that is to be although the farmers directly concerned say, 'We encouraged. I commend the library staff for that. pay thousands of dollars for rams and are getting only $100 compensation', they believe it is a fair and As mentioned by my colleague Mr Philip Oavis, by reasonable compensation level. I respect them for the end of March ovine Johne's disease had infected that view. some 42 flocks in Victoria. Twenty-two of those were in East Gippsland and I think all bar three were in That is why Mr Power's reasoned amendment East Gippsland, predominantly in the Tambo Valley. cannot be supported. The people directly concerned The Tambo Valley starts at the township of Bruthen have told me we need to immediately slaughter the and includes Omeo. It also incorporates small flocks to assist with the eradication of the disease. settlements like Ensay - a major sheep centre in my We cannot afford to procrastinate and allow the electorate. Many of the farmers with infected disease to get a stranglehold in Victoria. We need to animals made heartbreaking decisions to have their address this urgent matter now. That is the direct flocks slaughtered. I sat around kitchen tables with advice I have received from the people involved, some of my constituents to discuss this matter. In and I accept their advice. particular I mention Mr Evan Newcommen. Many months ago I sat around the table with Evan and his I commend the government on having taken the wife, Dot, to discuss this issue. He was one of the initiative in January. The minister put aside first people to realise that he had to take the step $1 million for the fund's establishment and it has towards having his entire flock slaughtered. For paid out more than $1.5 million to farmers who have generations his family has been sheep farmers with a had their flocks slaughtered. The 9-cent levy on each long and proud tradition in the East Gippsland live sheep transaction in Victoria will ensure the region. The quality of their stock is excellent. The compensation fund is sufficient to meet the demands presence of ovine Johne's disease is not a reflection invariably put on it as more flocks are slaughtered on the farming practices of Tambo Valley farmers. and more farmers make claims for compensation for The disease was first detected in New South Wales their animals. and has infiltrated Victoria. Because large numbers of stock change hands, it was inevitable that good The disease is serious. It must be eradicated and the quality stock would become infected. The steps appropriate steps must be taken. Consequently, the being taken are appropriate to eradicate ovine establishment of the compensation fund is Johne's disease in Victoria. commendable and, although the reasoned amendment asks that further work be done, I am When sitting around the table with Mr Newcommen pleased that all honourable members support the and his wife I asked, 'How do you feel about this?'. measure. That opposition request cannot be agreed He was devastated that he would have to go out of to. The opposition simply wants to test the motion. sheep farming for two years. He said, I Although I The legislation must be passed tonight. I again hate to do it, I know I have to do it. For the future of commend those in my electorate who have taken the the industry I know this measure has to be taken­ devastating step of having their flocks slaughtered. that is, everything possible must be done to However, it is in the best interests of the industry eradicate the disease in Victoria'. that those measures be taken.

As Mr Oavis said, we have a chance to eradicate the Hon. R. J. H. WELLS (Eumemmerring) - I am disease before it gets a hold on nearly every sheep pleased to join the debate on this important bill. I flock in Victoria and before it reaches the magnitude congratulate the government on clearly stating its LIVESTOCK DISEASE CO~TROL (AMENDMENT) BILL

692 COUNCil- Tuesday, 13 May 1997 support for the prevention of disease in Victorian repopulate so that we do not wipe out our sheep livestock. 1bis is the classic veterinary approach, population. which is to prevent disease and to maintain health in our flocks rather than treat disease. But there are other real problems with this matter. A test and slaughter program is based upon the notion With chronic disease the usual circumstance is that that one uses some degree of effective quarantine, so long as an adequate test is available to identify and Victoria does not have that quarantine. Some the disease, eradication is preferred rather than 10 million sheep a year move interstate trying to vaccinate when the immune response to Australia-wide, and about 80 per cent move into such chronic disease is not strong and the efficiency Victoria from elsewhere. There is no doubt that of vaccination doubtful. Eradication is also a Johne's disease spread from New South Wales into recognition of the fact that there are not adequate Victoria. That is probably still happening because antibiotic substances available to eradicate the the test is inadequate at present. Therefore, the disease from the animals' bodies through drug problem we face is: if we depopulate flocks now for treatment. The problem for Victorians now, two years, how will we repopulate them and how especially for our farmers, concerns the efforts of will we repopulate with confidence? those many men and women who have given so much of their lives and work to, in this case, sheep The notes from the library'S excellent summary farming. The cost for them is immeasurable. A make the point that an owner may well buy one ram positive test result of their flocks means they lose and bring it into his flock and thereby bring in everything except what is available in compensation. Johne's disease, meaning the whole flock might That is a significant problem with this disease eventually be wiped out. So, what do Victorian because, in a sense, modern knowledge has been sheep breeders and owners do about bringing sheep caught short. Knowledge about the disease is into their flocks? 1bis disease now poses the most inadequate. Current testing procedures are dire challenge for sheep owners in Victoria. You can unreliable. introduce one animal into your flock and bring in Johne's disease, and thus be faced with having to Honourable members will best appreciate this wipe out the whole flock. Highly pedigreed flocks, disease if I use the analogy of tuberculosis in cattle, a to which I think Mr Davis was referring earlier, disease that also causes chronic granulomatous might have taken some 20, 30 or 40 years of work inflammation. It is the same process in sheep with and an inestimable amount of money to develop, yet Johne's disease; ovine Johne's disease develops owners might have to wipe them out because of the slowly and organisms are shed from the body and introduction of a small number of animals into the spread to other animals. My remarks will be flocks. That poses a great question for anyone confined to ovine Johne's disease because nothing concerned with the sheep industry. We do not else in the bill is controversial. I believe the house understand the epidemiology or the nature of the will pass the bill. spread of this disease in Victoria. We have done too little testing at this point. These matters need urgent The problems we face are those of a biological attention. nature; the test for the disease is not sufficiently reliable and we desperately need a single reliable The veterinary profession in Victoria is concerned - animal test. That was the key to bovine tuberculosis. it has genuine reasons for its concern - about the We were able to eradicate that disease throughout vulnerable state of our knowledge. It was vast areas of northern Australia. It was one of the courageous of the government to establish an most difficult problems the world faced, and one eradication program at this point with those must compliment animal owners, industry workers, deficiencies in our knowledge. It was possibly the veterinarians, scientists and technologists who only way to slow down - I cannot say stop - the achieved what was deemed to be almost the rate of spread. impossible - the eradication of tuberculosis Australia-wide. Once we have the appropriate tests The whole point of my comments is that we must the same can be done with Johne's disease in sheep. urgently face up to acquiring the knowledge we The problem was illustrated by Mr Davis who need. One would not wish to see a situation in referred to the need to stop the disease spreading - which flocks that have been wiped out are I don't say 'too quickly' - too much across Victoria repopulated two years later, only to come down to ensure that we have sufficient unaffected sheep to again, or where a couple of years after the flocks are wiped out it is found that the disease is out of LIVESTOCK DISEASE CONTROL (AMENDMENT) BILL

Tuesday, 13 May 1997 COUNca 693 control across the state because, for example, apart Research, disease control, compensation, restocking, from anything else, the disease may still be coming immunology and even establishing beyond doubt, if in from other states. you can, that you cannot develop a vaccine, all of these things need to be tackled in a concerted I know New South Wales is somewhat reluctant to program; not left to the genius of the individual take positive action at this time along the lines of the research worker here and there behind which the Victorian action. It seems to me most urgent that nation should unite to attack this disease. We must New South Wales, South Australia and Queensland urgently speed up laboratory work; that is the do this, and that the federal government accept a single, most important need. real degree of responsibility for getting together with the states to try to persuade all concerned to act One would hope, in a sense, that there were some quickly on this matter. If that does not occur, based way of slowing down some other aspects of the on the history of scientific epidemiology across the control program until we have a better idea of what world, Victoria may fail to eradicate the disease. the situation really is. Imposing a standstill on That would be tragic, not just for Victoria but existing flocks in Victoria may be enough to stop any especially for those courageous men and women spread for the moment, because this disease spreads who have agreed in the early stages to wipe out their very slowly, but you still have sheep coming into the flocks. state from elsewhere. These things need to be considered very carefully by the regulatory Let us not have any doubts that the compensation authorities. It is not just a matter of Parliament and payable is not adequate to meet the losses. In fact, I the government saying courageously, 'We will wipe doubt that it can be. I have worked in other out the disease' - you need the science to do the countries that have had compensation schemes, and job. However, at this time we do not have the science the compensation was never adequate to replace the to do the job. It is most urgent that it become a stock that was wiped out. What do you do about national program very quickly. loss of profits, for example? They do not even feature. What about restocking, particularly if the I thought seriously and carefully about Mr Power's owners had valuable sheep to begin with? I can tell reasoned amendment. I believe it would not be the house that they do not restock from the appropriate to support it at this time, if for no other compensation; it is hoped they restock from profits reason than to keep faith with those owners who they may have built up and packed away in the have agreed with our program. We should not bank. But, then, primary production is not suddenly back off and change our position. But, at something known for great profits that you can store the more important level of reasoning, we have a away. Therefore, we face a further problem at a state program that has some scientific basis to it. We need and national level: if you wipe out your leading to hang in there with that while we urgently move to flocks it is more difficult to replace them. increase our technological capacity to carry on the program. There are dimensions to this problem that go far beyond the simple proposition that with an I oppose the reasoned amendment, but I urge the inaccurate test you can sometimes identify the Victorian government to put maximal pressure on disease and then wipe out the flock. Much more other governments to ensure something is done knowledge than that is needed. The amounts of most urgently about this disease at the laboratory research money concerned are not huge. In fact, it is level. In saying that, I commend the bill to the house. fair and reasonable to say that Victoria could carry these costs within its own boundaries, but once the Amendment negatived. principles of the knowledge are established everyone will use them. Therefore, it is really urgent Motion agreed to. for the federal government to make a contribution, persuade other states to make a contribution and Read second time. organise what really must be a crash program to establish the knowledge we need so vitally to stop Third reading this disease affecting what has for a very long time been Australia's major rural industry and one of its Hon. G. R. CRAIGE (Minister for Roads and major earners, both domestic and export. Ports) - By leave, I move:

That this bill be now read a third time. ADJOURNMENT

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I thank honourable members for their sincere and I visited the hotel quite a few times and it was a detailed contributions to the debate. pretty grotty, dreadful and depressing place. It was used by the Department of Human Services to house Motion agreed to. patients it could not find accommodation for anywhere else and therefore had a pretty depressing Read third time. mixture of people with many different sorts of problems. I have spoken to Elsie Teer, who is the Remaining stages Citizens Advocacy West coordinator, who was told the hotel was closing on 2 May. Passed remaining stages. We do not know where the former inhabitants of the ADJOURNMENT hotel have been accommodated. I believe there are some vacancies in the Gordon Street flats, but they Hon. G. R. CRAIGE (Minister for Roads and are unsuitable for many of the people about whom I Ports) - I move: speak. The problem is that we do not have any suitable small-scale accommodation such as guest That the house do now adjourn. houses to house these people. There is a need in the west for small boarding houses which can be used as Rural Victoria: Partnerships for Growth transitional accommodation and in which cooking skills and other necessary training can take place Hon. C. J. HOGG (Melbourne North) - I raise a before people are put into or want to be put into matter with the Minister for Small Business as the independent housing. representative in this house of the Minister for Rural Development. I have noticed over time the I ask the minister to ask his colleague where those disappearance of the Business Advice for Rural 52 former tenants have been placed, what their Areas or BARA program, which succeeded the REV situation is and where the next lot of people who program. I have also noticed the disappearance of would have been put into the California Inn because most or perhaps all of the economic development there was nowhere else to put them will be associations. However, I have seen the accommodated? announcement of the government's new initiative Partnerships for Growth. I believe the funding for Greater Geelong: mayoral adviser the program is approximately $50 million, $13 million of which is for new initiatives which Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN (Geelong) - I raise require local government or community groups to with the Minister for Finance as the representative in provide funding on a dollar-for-dollar basis. this house of the Minister for Planning and Local Government the appointment of a new adviser to Given the level of unease and uncertainty that the mayor of the City of Greater Geelong. It was currently exists in rural Victoria in particular and in announced in the press recently that a Mr Bill Albon rural Australia generally, it seems critical for this had been appointed to advise the mayor of Geelong. money to achieve results. I therefore ask the minister I understand that both he and the mayor were quick to ask her colleague to furnish me with an outline of to advise that he was a member of the Labor Party, the initiatives that are being funded. as was the mayor, and that he had worked with a number of people in the Labor Party. Housing: Footscray Terraces I ask the minister to ask his colleagues whether Hon. JEAN McLEAN

Tuesday, 13 May 1997 COUNCIL 695 the matter to be pursued further. At page 7438 of the Workcover: incentive payments Hansard report of the House of Representatives of 2 December 1996, Dr Theophanous is reported as Hon. T. C. THEOPHANOUS (Jika Jika) - I raise stating: a matter with the Minister responsible for Workcover which follows on from the question I As a result of this intimidatory behaviour towards Theo asked during question time today concerning the Theophanous, Mr Albon was subsequently banned practice of Workcover of offering an incentive of from entering the state Parliament by the President of $3500 for the removal of injured workers from the the Legislative Council. Workcover scheme.

Dr Theophanous is later reported as stating: The minister may not be aware - he was not aware at question time - of the basis of the scheme. However, the matter does not end there. I regret to say However, my understanding is that the original idea that I now firmly believe Mr Albon has not been acting was to try to get people back to work by offering an alone, but has been involved in a conspiracy with other incentive of $3500 to the insurance company to people, politically powerful people, designed to defeat facilitate the process. me - not via the proper democratic processes but via a campaign based on false allegations and illegal actions. Insurance companies, as they are liable to do, have This campaign involves stolen documents and is based taken advantage of what may well have been a on lies and distortions. notion by the minister or the staff or somebody within the organisation to try to get people back to The issue that concerns me and which I wish the work rather than having them stay on the system. In Minister for Planning and Local Government to practice, instead of this occurring only where the inquire into is whether the mayor of the City of person actually returns to work, the $3500 is simply Greater Geelong is aware of the relationship that paid on the basis of whether a person is taken off exists between his new political adviser -- weekly benefits. As the minister would understand, it is the difference between a person being taken off Hon. T. C. Theophanous - Good question. weekly benefits who may well end up on the social security system or on some other form of Hon. R. I. Knowles - The Leader of the support and a person who goes off the system and Opposition thinks this is a very good question. finishes up in the work force.

Hon. W. A. N. HARTIGAN - What I think he The criterion is that people must have left after the should possibly do is listen before he comes to a additional 26 weeks, so it is subsequent to that. The conclusion. He may well be right. Can the minister Victorian Workcover Authority has not insisted that determine whether the mayor of the City of Greater a person be provided with suitable employment, as I Geelong is aware of the relationship that exists am sure honourable members and the minister between Mr Bill Albon, Dr Theophanous and would envisage should occur. Rather, benefits are Mr Theophanous? It is obviously part of the bitter being applied indiscriminately. In a number of cases, factional infighting that is a most common with the application of the latest changes to characteristic of the Labor Party in Victoria. In other Workcover where psychological impairment is an words, does the mayor of the City of Greater induced issue or applies in a reduced form, people Geelong know what he has taken on board in are being taken off the system. Not all of them are relation to a continuation of that never ending but finding their way into employment but the $3500 is irrelevant battle between the various factions of the being paid across to the insurance company. Labor Party to gain promotion in an organisation that is hardly worth the name. I ask the minister to give an undertaking to examine the scheme. The opposition wants to get rid of it It is a matter of serious concern that the City of altogether because it will obviously be subject to Greater Geelong is exposed to that disease which abuse. I would think there would be enough seems so characteristic of the Labor Party and which incentive for insurance companies to try to get has been so thoroughly entrenched in the debate people back to work so that they did not have to pay between the interested parties. I would be grateful if the benefits to workers without the companies the minister would seek the views of the Minister for receiving an additional incentive payment of $3500. Planning and Local Government on the matter. ADJOURNMENT

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I ask the minister to investigate the matter and to Neos Kosmos. I am happy to stand by the translation give an undertaking that he will examine whether that I have provided. such a scheme should be in place at all. The PRESIDENT - Order! There is no point of Brimbank: mayoral election order. I wonder if you could get to your question.

Hon. P. A. KA TSAMBANIS (Monash) - I raise Hon. P. A. KA TSAMBANIS - It appears that it an issue for the Minister for Finance, representing was news to the new mayor of the City of Brimbank the Minister for Planning and Local Government in that Mr Theophanous had made such claims. the other place. It relates to the continuing factional Cr Lombardi was moved to write to the editor of dispute alluded to by Mr Hartigan earlier tonight, Neos Kosmos the following day, 18 April. The letter and specifically to a letter written by the Leader of was in English and was published in full. It also the Opposition in this house, Mr Theophanous, to appeared in English in a sister newspaper to Neos the Greek language newspaper Neos Kosmos on Kosmos on Saturday, 26 April. The letter was 17 April. In particular he says he would like the counterSigned by Cr Sam David. I have no trouble Greek community of Melbourne to know that reading the letter in English, and I am pleased to Mr Theophanous's new faction within the Labor read it in full. The letter, dated 18 April, on Party is called the Labor Renewal Alliance. Brimbank City Council letterhead, reads:

Hon. T. C. Tbeophanous - Good faction! Dear Sir,

Hon. P. A. KA TSAMBANIS - In Greek the I wish to comment on the statements in your translation comes across as the Democratic Left. I am newspaper on 17 April 1997, where on page 12 confused about why Democratic Left cannot be Mr Theo Theophanous claims that the new Labor translated into English as Democratic Left, but that Renewal Alliance helped and assisted myself becoming is another issue. mayor of Brirnbank for the 1997-98 year on the understanding that Cr Sam David will be mayor in Mr Theophanous claims that his faction - whatever 1998-99. it may be called - was successful in supporting the election of the new mayor of the Brimbank City Cr Sam David and myself strongly deny any Council, Cr Ciro Lombardi. Mr Theophanous involvement with Mr Theophanous's group, and highlights the fact that Mr Lombardi is of Italian advise there was no political involvement in choosing origin, and points out that his alliance was the mayor for this or any other year. responsible for a deal that will mean that in the following year the mayor of the City of The PRESIDENT - Order! May we now have Brimbank-- the question?

Hon. T. C. Tbeophanous - On a point of order, Hon. P. A. KA TSAMBANIS - I am trying to Mr President, I am quite happy for Mr Katsambanis read it, Mr President, and I will get to my question. to raise the matter because I wrote the letter to Neos It is quite clear from Cr Lombardi's letter, Kosmos. I do not have any problem with that. countersigned by Cr Sam David, that they deny any Unfortunately, however, Mr Katsambanis is not involvement with Mr Theophanous's group and any accurately reflecting what is in the letter. I therefore interference with any MP, federal or state, and that request that you ask him to read it into the Hansard the city councillors are perturbed by in Greek, Mr President. Mr Theophanous's comments and his influence on the council elections. Hon. P. A. KA TSAMBANIS - On the point of order, Mr President, Mr Theophanous further claims I ask the minister to inquire into this attempt by that his alliance had somehow secured a deal to Mr Theophanous and his faction to influence the ensure that in the next year the mayor of Brimbank mayoral outcome in the City of Brimbank. I call on is likely to be a Cr Sam David, who is supposedly a the minister to investigate the situation and to member of the Greek community - and I have no ensure that the people of Brimbank are not being doubt that he is. I do not profess to be the world's jeopardised by the actions of Mr Theophanous and greatest translator of Greek into English, but I have his cohorts in the continuation of their factional had no trouble in the past reading and interpreting battle. ADJOURNMENT

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School buses: seat belts 200 per cent increase in the collection of recyc1ables, which in some circumstances are sent to landfill. Hon. PAT POWER (Jika Jika) - I raise a matter for the attention of the Minister for Roads and Ports. The Whittlesea council is in a difficult position. In the last five or six weeks I have had a number of Contractors whose tenders were based on discussions with parents of young children in the 1996 commodity prices have found that on average Reservoir-Preston area who are concerned about the the cost of disposing of recycled products has risen safety of their children on school buses. There have by 66 per cent in 12 months. The City of Whittlesea been incidents where school buses have been needs to find an additional $200 000 a year to meet involved in minor accidents, some as simple as the the increasing cost. Further, the figure for councils in need for emergency braking or to make sharp turns the northern region is around $1.6 million. to the left or right. The City of Whittlesea put together a discussion The families concerned have given the matter paper that outlines the position the northern serious consideration. They have spoken to a councils are in. It sent a copy of the paper to the number of other families in the community and have Minister for Conservation and Land Management on come to the conclusion, which I must admit I have 2 May 1997. I know the government has given some sympathy with, that there is a need to councils $1.75 million to help them make up some of investigate the feasibility of providing seat belts in that shortfall. For the City of Whittlesea, that school buses. amounts to a one-off payment of $30 000 or thereabouts, which will keep it going only for six to The families have contemplated taking up the matter seven weeks. The Whittlesea council has spent in the in the local media. They have decided not to do vicinity of $800 000 on the wherewithal, including a that - wisely, I think - because they acknowledge two-bin system, to maximise recycling within the that enough media attention has been given to this municipality, in line with government policy. It is type of issue. They realise this would be a significant now looking at additional expense. financial impost on the companies that provide school buses. As a consequence, they believe it is Hon. M. A. Birrell interjected. desirable that the government support the installation of seat belts through some form of Hon. D. A. NARDELLA - It is not just a case of subsidy or loan. selling assets. I am raising this not just on behalf of the City of Whittlesea but on behalf of all the I know the minister is extremely conscious of the councils in the northern region, which do not have need for safety, especially in the large number of the Taj Mahals the minister claims they have. The buses that are used to transport our schoolchildren issue is about continuing the recycling program. in metropolitan and country areas. Will the minister tell the house whether the proposal put forward by I ask the minister to ask the Minister for these families has merit and whether the Conservation and Land Management in another government has any strategy that in the near future place to meet with the City of Whittlesea, as has may result in seat belts being installed on school been requested, to discuss the needs of the northern buses? region so that a long-term resolution to the problem can be worked through for the benefit of the Whittlesea: recycling Victorian community in general and the northern region, specifically. Hon. D. A. NARDELLA (Melbourne North) - I raise a matter for the attention of the Minister for Metropolitan Women's Correctional Industry, Science and Technology, who represents Centre the Minister for Conservation and Land Management in another place. I have received some Hon. S. M. NGUYEN

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About 30 inmates wielding lumps of wood clashed minister's jurisdiction. I shall examine my own with prison officers who were trying to remove the two responsibilities, but I know the California Inn, officer (sic) from the jail for their own safety. otherwise known as the Footscray Terraces private hotel, is a supported residential accommodation Prisoners have made death threats against the two. service.

I read from another part of the article: Hon. Jean McLean - It was.

Prison officers were bashed, kicked in the back, head, Hon. R. I. KNOWLES - I am keen to have testicles and beaten during last Monday's clash. The minimum standards apply to supported residential male and female prison officials have cracked ribs, cuts services, but there has been some difficulty in and bruising and stress as a result of the clash. getting Footscray Terraces to meet those minimal standards. I ask the minister whether he has conducted a full investigation of the incident. How can prison Hon. Jean McLean - Absolutely, it never could. authorities write it off as minor? Does it indicate problems with the operation of private prisons? Hon. R. I. KNOWLES - Mrs McLean has encapsulated the problem without providing a Disabili ty services: commonwealth solution. I shall take the matter on notice, but if I can funding flick pass it to someone else, I will. It is a classic example of a service that does not meet the Hon. M. M. GOULD (Doutta Galla) - I direct to minimum standards. It is difficult to know whether the attention of the Minister for Health, who is the the government should insist on those standards representative in this place of the Minister for Youth being met and withdraw the service's authority to and Community Services, a letter from a operate if it fails to meet them or accept the Greensborough resident who raises his concern continuation of a service that is clearly not meeting about elderly parents of intellectually disabled the standards. I am putting together a task force that children. In many cases the parents, who may have will grapple with the problem. We should not suffered strokes or whose eyesight may be failing, pretend it is an easy issue to resolve. have had to hand in their driving licences. They are concerned about the future prospects of their Hon. D. A. Nardella - Will the task force intellectually disabled children. comprise members of the backbench?

It is estimated that more than 3000 Victorian Hon. R. I. KNOWLES - Mr Nardella should not children are on the commonwealth government make light of the issue. The Labor administration waiting list. I ask the minister to ask the minister in did nothing about supported residential services another place to make strong representations to his during its 10 years in office. Only now are some federal colleagues about the proposed $15.5 million basic standards being instituted. I am comfortable cut to disability services and to ensure that the about accommodating a debate on the issue at any elderly parents of intellectually disabled children time, because I am happy about comparing the have the peace of mind of knowing that their record of the Kennett government with that of the children's futures are secure. former Labor administration.

Responses Miss Gould asked me to raise with the Minister for Youth and Community Services in another place Hon. M. A. BIRRELL (Minister for Industry, some difficulties with disability services. My Science and Technology) - Mr Nardella asked me ministerial colleague has put this issue on the public to direct a matter about recycling in Whittlesea and agenda. He has consistently advocated the need for the northern region to the attention of the Minister the commonwealth government to maintain its for Conservation and Land Management in another funding. I have no doubt that he will be comforted place, and I shall do that. by the opposition's support. I know he will continue to maintain his active advocacy for a better deal for Hon. R. I. KNOWLES (Minister for Health)­ those who care for people with disabilities and the Mrs McLean asked me to raise a matter with the impact a withdrawal of federal funding will have. Minister for Housing in another place. I am not sure whether the issue she raised lies strictly within the ADJOURNM ENT

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Hon. R. M. HALLAM (Minister for Finance) - Hon. Pat Power - They were accidents in the Mr Hartigan asked me to raise with the Minister for sense that kids were injured. Planning and Local Government in the other place the newly announced position of adviser to the Hon. G. R. CRAIGE - I would like Mr Power to mayor of the City of Greater Geelong. He asked provide me with detailed information on that. I whether the person appointed to the position is an would also like to carry out an investigation into the employee of the City of Greater Geelong, whether he matter because the issue deserves to be thoroughly is the same person cited in the federal Parliament by investigated. As Mr Power would know, bus safety Or Andrew Theophanous and whether he is the is a matter of national regulation and design rules. In same person who was subject to an exclusion order concert with the federal and state governments, this issued by you, Mr President. Mr Hartigan also asked government is examining bus safety, in particular whether the mayor of the City of Greater Geelong is the retrofitting of seat belts to existing buses and aware that the man is the person I have described. I requiring all new buses to be fitted with them. That shall pass on the matter to the minister, but I make has raised a number of alarming problems, the point that if the mayor was not aware before especially the engineering of the bus floors, which Mr Hartigan raised the issue, he will be now. are inadequate to even hold seat belts. I am sure Mr Power would not like to see the installation of Mr Theophanous raised the same issue he raised inappropriate seat belts that will not do the job. during question time earlier today, which goes to the structure of payments to authorised insurers under Another area of concern to the government is the Workcover. He described the structure as an requirement that schoolchildren wear seat belts and incentive to remove injured workers from the determining whose responsibility that would be. For Workcover scheme. In the course of his inquiry he instance, would it mean bus drivers could not even also said it is an incentive to get people back to start their buses until all the children had their seat work, which is crucial. During question time I said I belts on? Who would be liable if one student did not would not walk away from the fact that payments to put on his or her seat belt? These issues are not authorised agents were structured to provide simple and the government will work its way incentives. I obviously meant they were incentives to through them. The government is committed to get people back to work. Mr Theophanous asked for reforming the bus industry. I can assure both an undertaking that I will examine the scheme. I Mr Power and those parents who have raised repeat what I said during question time: I shall concerns that the government has the utmost investigate the issue and respond to him in detail. concern for the safety of schoolchildren in school buses. Mr Katsambanis raised an issue for my colleague the Minister for Planning and Local Government in Mr Nguyen raised for the attention of the Minister another place. He cited a letter allegedly written in for Corrections in another place injuries to women Greek by Mr Theophanous to Neos Kosmos in which prison officers during a clash with inmates. I will he describes his intention to advise the Greek refer that matter to the minister. community that it was the Labor renewal alliance which was responsible for the election of the newly Hon. LOUISE ASHER (Minister for Small appointed mayor of the City of Brimbank - and, Business) - Mrs Hogg asked me to refer a matter to apparently, the anointing of the councillor who will my colleague in another place the Minister for Rural be appointed mayor in the following year. If that is Development. Mrs Hogg inquired about the the claim, I imagine it is outrageous. But, in any government's very new program, Partnerships for event, I shall certainly pass on the inquiry to my Growth, and sought an outline of the programs that colleague. have been funded. I will refer that matter to the minister. Hon. G. R. CRAIGE (Minister for Roads and Ports) - Mr Power referred to school bus safety Motion agreed to. and, in particular, issues brought to his attention during the past five or six weeks by parents in the House adjourned 11.13 p.m. Reservoir-Preston area. Mr Power commenced by saying school buses had been involved in minor accidents that may have been only sharp turns or sudden emergency braking. One can only conclude that, in that sense, they are not accidents at all. 700 COUNCIL Tuesday, 13 May 1997 Joint Sitting of the Legislative Council and the Legislative Assembly

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Joint Sitting of the Legislative Council The PRESIDENT - The rules having been and the Legislative Assembly adopted, I am now prepared to receive proposals for the appointment of a person to hold the place in the Tuesday, 13 May 1997 Senate rendered vacant by the resignation of Senator the Honourable James Robert Short.

Mr KENNETT (Premier) - I propose:

Senate vacancy That Karen Margaret Synon hold the place in the Senate rendered vacant by the resignation of Senator Deakin University the Honourable James Robert Short.

University of Ballarat Karen Margaret Synon is willing to hold the vacant place if chosen. In order to satisfy the joint sitting Honourable members of both houses assembled at under the requirements of section 15 of the 6.17 p.m. commonwealth constitution, I also declare that as Parliamentary Leader of the Liberal Party, I advise The CLERK - Before proceeding with the that the nominee is the selection of the Liberal Party, business of this joint sitting it will be necessary to the party previously represented in the Senate by appoint a President. Senator the Honourable James Robert Short.

Mr KENNETT (Premier) - I move: Mr BRUMBY (Leader of the Opposition) - I second the proposal. That the Honourable Sidney James Plowman, MP, Speaker of the Legislative Assembly, be appointed Mr KENNETT (Premier) - It is with great President of this joint sitting. pleasure that I welcome the Liberal Party selection of Karen Synon as a senator to fill the vacancy created Mr BRUMBY (Leader of the Opposition) - I by the resignation of Jim Short. I may be wrong, but second the motion. I think this is the second time since 1992 that a joint session has been necessary to select a replacement Motion agreed to. for a retiring senator. The last occasion was when Senator Zakharov, a member of the Labor Party, The PRESIDENT - I thank the Premier and the died as a result of an accident. At that time the Leader of the Opposition for the honour of their precedents that had been set were again honoured nomination. I draw the attention of honourable when a representative of the Labor Party was members to the extracts from the Commonwealth nominated by the Leader of the Opposition, a Constitution, the Deakin University Act 1974 and recommendation the Parliament endorsed. the University of Ballarat Act 1993 which have been circulated. It will be noted that the various Today a member of the Liberal Party, Senator Jim provisions require that the joint sitting be conducted Short, is retiring and I therefore bring forward Karen in accordance with rules adopted for the purpose by Synon's name for consideration by this Parliament. I members present at the sitting. The first procedure, thank Senator Short for his work on behalf of the therefore, will be the adoption of rules for the choice people of Victoria. He has been a member of the of a person to hold the vacant place in the Senate. federal Parliament for a long time both as a member of the House of Representatives and then as a Mr KENNETI (Premier) - Mr President, I desire senator. He developed a very close relationship in to submit the rules of procedure, which are in the particular with multicultural communities hands of honourable members, and I accordingly throughout Victoria and represented their interests move: honourably and admirably.

That these rules be the rules of procedure for this part Hon. T. C. Theophanous interjected. of the joint sitting. Mr KENNETT - You get an opportunity once in Mr BRUMBY (Leader of the Opposition) - I a while to be polite and to thank a senator for second the motion. serving this state and this little grub from the upper house-- Motion agreed to. Joint Sitting of the Legislative Council and the Legislative Assem bly

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The PRESIDENT - Order! I ask all members to promoting industry and, importantly, multicu1tural be temperate in their language at this meeting. affairs and Australia's place in the world. She has proven herself to be an insightful, determined and Mr KENNETI - I withdraw that remark. It is no resourceful individual genuinely concerned with wonder there is so much difficulty in the Labor jobs and opportunities for all Australians. I am Party when Mr Theophanous behaves like that. He confident, as is my party, that Karen will be a is an absolute disgrace to parliamentary suitable representative for Victoria in this high representation. office, working to consolidate the gains this state has made over the last four years in terms of job Mr Short, as he is now, deserves the thanks of the creation, productivity and higher living standards. Victorian community for a whole range of areas that On behalf of my colleagues I wish Karen the very he was involved in as the member for Ballarat in the best in the Senate and believe Victorians stand to House of Representatives, as a senator and, benefit from her appointment tonight. importantly, as I said earlier, his work with the ethnic community. To have Mr Theophanous, Mr BRUMBY (Leader of the Opposition) - I himself a member of an ethnic community, make second the nomination the Premier has made tonight such a belittling comment is a reflection on his for Karen Margaret Synon to be chosen to hold the inability to be a tall man and to be a good member of place in the Senate rendered vacant by the Parliament. resignation of Senator James Robert Short. I endorse, in a sense, the comments made by the Premier about Today we replace Mr Short with Karen Synon. No the work of Senator Short, particularly his work as a doubt she will add considerably to the Senate and shadow minister for multicultural affairs. Senator will capably represent the interests of this state. All Short was always at the many functions I attended honourable members recognise that the Senate and as opposition leader before the election of the the senators do not represent the states in the way present federal government. He was sometimes expected when the constitution was put together in renowned for his long speeches, but I think no-one 1901. Therefore when choosing senators, whether doubted the integrity he displayed or the honesty they be from the conservative, Labor or Democrats with which he represented those views. All parties, it is important to reflect on the fact that, as honourable members wish him well in his new post. provided for by the constitution, they are elected to serve the people of the state which elected them and I also echo the sentiments which have been that party politics should take a second seat to that expressed by the Premier in relation to the filling of responsibility . casual vacancies in the Senate. It is a matter which has had a long history. Over the past few years three Karen's employment and academic background has casual vacancies have been filled, all in accordance a very strong business emphasis. She has been with both the letter and the spirit of the federal actively involved in public sector administration and constitution in that the replacement has been policy formulation. In the past four years she has nominated by the party of which the senator served as director of employment for the creating the vacancy was a member and has been Department of State Development, and I have no endorsed at a joint sitting of Parliament. That is a doubt that the department will miss her. In that role desirable situation and it is pleasing to see it being Karen has over seen a number of important changes put into effect in this Parliament. to the delivery of employment service programs across the state. Those changes have created more It is worthy of note that in his capacity as Minister streamlined and efficient community-based for Finance Senator Short resigned over what he programs which have significantly improved believed to be a conflict of interest and a breach of placement and retention rates and created the ministerial standards put in place by Prime employment programs unmatched anywhere in Minister Howard. I make the self-evident point that Australia. It is that strong focus upon employment if the same principles, the same integrity and the and training which is vital to the enhancement of same standards in relation to ministerial behaviour skills in our community and which reinforces Karen which Senator Short applied to himself were applied as a worthy senator. by others a number of members of this Parliament would be following him! Karen's long association with the Liberal Party has seen her actively involved in many key policy Honourable members interjecting. committees that have incorporated her interests in Joint Sitting of the Legislative Council and the Legislative Assembly

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Mr BRUMBY - It is important to put on the representation in the Senate. 1b.i.s issue needs to be record the question of ministerial standards and the examined. appropriate behaviour displayed by Senator Short. Mr Kennett interjected. If the same standards were applied in this Parliament the Minister for Conservation and Land Mr BRUMBY - They will not listen to you. You Management would go. She would have to resign are a monarchist. Are you still a monarchist? and she would be replaced, but she is not here tonight. The Attorney-General, who managed to The PRESIDENT - Order! The honourable make key strategic decisions in this Parliament member should address his remarks through the affecting BHP while she held shares in that Chair. company, would go. The Premier, who has made an art form of share trading and profiting at the Mr BRUMBY - I have much pleasure in public's expense, would go. seconding the nomination of Karen Margaret Synon to replace Senator Short. Honourable members interjecting. The PRESIDENT - Order! Are there any further The PRESIDENT - Order! I appeal for some proposals? As only one name has been proposed I temperance and decorum from both sides of the declare that Karen Margaret Synon has been chosen house during this joint sitting. to hold the place in the Senate rendered vacant by the resignation of Senator James Robert Short. Mr BRUMBY - The three strikes and you're out rule applies to the Premier who, along with his Mr KENNETT (Premier) - I move: family, has engaged in more share trading than any other member of this Parliament. I also refer to a That the President of the joint sitting inform His member for Koonung Province in the other place, Excellency the Governor that Karen Margaret Synon Mr Atkinson. He has perhaps shown greater literary has been chosen to hold the place in the Senate prowess than he has in his work as the rendered vacant by the resignation of Senator the Parliamentary Secretary for Planning and Local Honourable James Robert Short. Government. Of course, that issue will be tested in the Supreme Court in just over one month. Mr BRUMBY (Leader of the Opposition) - I second the motion. The issue of standards has been raised. Senator Short is a man for whom I have a great deal of respect. He Motion agreed to. worked hard and after losing the federal seat of Ballarat in 1980 he recovered his position. He The PRESIDENT - The next procedure will be worked hard in the Senate and when he did the the adoption of rules for the proceedings dealing wrong thing and made decisions affecting a with the councils of the universities. company in which he held shares he did the right thing and resigned. Mr KENNETT (Premier) - I desire to submit the rules of procedure, which are in the hands of Mr Kennett interjected. honourable members, and I accordingly move:

Mr BRUMBY - He held shares in ANZ. The That these rules be the rules of procedure for this joint Minister for Conservation and Land Management, sitting. the Attorney-General, the Premier and the member for Koonung Province should all resign, and there is Mr BRUMBY (Leader of the Opposition) - I a much longer list. second the motion.

I take up a point made by the Premier about the role Motion agreed to. of senators representing the states. It is a matter which should concern this Parliament and Victorian The PRESIDENT - Order! The rules having voters. Victoria has 12 senators for whom the been adopted, I am now prepared to receive average quota is around 300 000 electors. In contrast, proposals from honourable members with regard to Tasmania has a quota of around 30 000 voters per members to be recommended for appointment to the senator and yet it has the same numerical Joint Sitting of the Legislative Council and the Legislative Assembly

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Deakin University council in place of Ms Mary Jane Mr KENNETI (Premier) - I propose: Gillett, MP. That the Honourable Richard Strachan de Fegely, MLC; Mr KENNETI (Premier) - I propose: Ms Mary Jane Gillett, MP; and the Honourable William Desmond McGrath, MP, be recommended for Mrs Judith Marilyn Maddigan, MP, be recommended appointment as members of the University of Ballarat for appointment as a member of the Deakin University council. council. Mr BRUMBY (Leader of the Opposition) - I Mrs Judith Marilyn Maddigan is willing to accept second the proposal. the appointment if chosen. The PRESIDENT - Order! Are there any further Mr BRUMBY (Leader of the Opposition) - I proposals? As only three members are proposed I second the proposal. declare that the Honourable Richard Strachan de Fegely, MLC, Ms Mary Jane Gillett, MP, and the The PRESIDENT - Order! Are there any further Honourable William Desmond McGrath, MP, be proposals? As only one member is proposed, I recommended for appointment as members of the declare that Mrs Judith Marilyn Maddigan be University of Ballarat council. recommended for appointment as a member of the Deakin University council. There being no further business I now declare the joint sitting closed. I am now prepared to receive proposals from honourable members with regard to members to be Proceedings terminated 6.38 p.m. recommended for appointment to the University of Ballarat council.