REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF HOUSE OF KEYS

Douglas, Tuesday, April 25, 1967

Present: The Acting-Speaker (Mr A. Man. We, the hon. Speaker and mem- S. Kelly), Messrs. R. J. G. Anderson, H. bers of the House of Keys upon your D. C. MacLeod, E. N. Crowe, R. E. S. relinquishment of office desire to place Kerruish, Miss J. C. C. Thornton- on record this acknowledgment of the Duesbery, Messrs. P. A. Spittall, W. E. ass stance given and the co-operation Quayle, T. C, Faragher, A. H. Simcocks, you have afforded the House during G. T. Crellin, J. E. Callister, J. A. Moore, T. A. Corkish, E. C. Irving, C. E. Burke, your term as Head of the Civil Service G. V. H. Kneale, G. A. Devereau, R. of this Island, and in expressing this MacDonald, Sir Henry Sugden, K.B.E., tribute to your ability and service to C,B., D.S.O., with Mr T. E. Kermeen, the legislature of this Island, the House Secretary to the House. wish to extend their sincere wish that you may have a long and happy retire- ment." Now that is the address and before I make this formal presentation APOLOGIES FOR ABSENCE to Mr Davies I think it would be nice The Acting-Speaker: The Speaker is on my part on behalf of the members coming along nicely, hon. members. He of the House of Keys to say how pleased is resting at the moment but hopes to we are to welcome Mr and Mrs Davies be with us again shortly. Mr Creer has here this morning amongst us for this also asked to be excused. particular ceremony. Mr Davies, of course, has been in this high office for many years, I think it is 13 or 14 years, and during that time of course he has FORMAL PRESENTATION TO MR given a lot of co-operation to every E. R. ST. A. DAVIES, M.B.E., OF member of the legislature, and particu- AN ILLUMINATED ADDRESS. larly those members of the House of Keys, and that is one of the reasons The Acting-Speaker: Hon. members, why we are doing this today. This is the first business we have this morning quite unique, it is out of this world, is a presentation to Mr Davies, former there has nothing like this ever been Government Secretary. As you will see done in the House of Keys to our know- we have Mr and Mrs Davies with us ledge, and we are putting on record, in this morning, and I have this very plea- the wording of the illuminated address, sant duty to perform, Now this is the to say how pleased we have been to illuminated address which states — "To have Mr Davies acting in the capacities Eric Reginald St. Aubrey Davies, Mem- which are already stated here in this ber of the Most Excellent Order of the address. I am sure, Mr Davies, you British Empire, Master of Arts, Justice must ibe very proud today to feel that of the Peace, Clerk of the Council and something has been achieved during Government Secretary of the Isle of your term of office as the Government

Apologies for Absence.—Formal Presentation to Mr E. R. St. A. Davies, M.B.E., of an Illuminated Address. 1238 HOUSE OF KEYS, APRIL 25, 1967

Secretary and Head of the Isle. of Man and bitterness and waste of time and Civil Service. You must also be very all kinds of things. I felt we must try proud to have taken part in implement- and do something about this, so the ing many of the big decisions of Gov- staff 02 Government Office and I .have ernment during the last decade, and done our best over the last 13 years to seeing these through to fruition, and I try and oil the works a bit. I know am sure that all the members of the House of Keys, including the hon. there is stilt a lot of grit about but it Speaker who is not with us today, will may not be quite so scratchy as it used wish you a very long term of happiness to be, anyhow I hope not. The real and your dear wife. The picture on this satisfaction I get today is from the particular illuminated address as you feeling that you hon. members have will sae as someone interested in art been so kind in appreciating these and also a Master of Arts, in the des- efforts and this occasion, I think, is evi- cription, and a member of the Arts dence that you have appreciated what Council, you see it is Ballavale with we have, on both sides, tried to do. Mr the lovely rhododendrons and the floral Acting-Speaker, I would like to thank display, and when you look at this, I hon. members here, and the members am sure you will have very happy who have been members of the pre- memories of the days you have spent ceding three houses, for their tremen- in this building and helping all of us. dous kindness to me on all sorts of who have been members of the legisla- occasions, and their courtesy, and I am ture. Wild you come forward Mr Davies sure their forbearance and their and receive this illuminated address ? patience in dealing with a come-over - though he may be a Celt. But it really Mr Davies was escorted by the has bean most enjoyable. I think that I Messengers of the House of Keys to have enjoyed the last few years prob- the Acting-Speaker to receive the ably the most of the 13 years I have ' address. been here because they have been very exciting years, both economically and Mr Davies: Mr Acting-Speaker, hon. politically — I think there have been members, I am indeed extremely grate- tremendous strides — some of you may ful to you all for this presentation, and feel they are strides backwards, 1 don't, to you Mr Acting-Speaker for the very but then that is a matter of opinion. kind things you said this morning to But anyhow they have been most us. I find it a bit difficult to express my exciting years, and politically if I may appreciation for this because I didn't say so — I find myself at some dis- realise first of all that it was the first advantage talking to you experts in time that this kind of thing had ever politics — but politically it seems to me happened, and also I think I can quite that there has been a good deal more honestly say that nothing, nothing at advance than many people really appre- all, could give me greater pleasure or ciate. Political development, I believe, more satisfaction than this occasion is far more important in the little things has today, because when I first came to that happen — the changes of proce- the Island, I sensed when I came to dure, the order in which things are Government Office, I sensed a certain done, even the changes in nomencla- coolness, a certain lack of rapport be- ture, r believe that those are much more tween the members of this House and lasting things than things that are Government Office, and I felt that was written on paper because they anyhow unhappy. I thought it was entirely un- are always at the mercy of the consti- necessary, and I thought it also was tutional lawyers. But the little changes very inefficient. It leads to frustration of procedure — a change in the order • - Formal Presentation to Mr E. R. St. A. Davies, M.B.E., of an illuminated. Address. HOUSE OF KEYS, APRIL 25, 1967 1239

of things becomes a habit, a habit be- set up and we have reported and comes an acknowledged procedure, and understand all members have a copy of an acknowledged procedure becomes that report in their hands. The com- one of these sacrosanct customs of the mittee. I may say, agreed unanimously constitution, about which Mr Anson and with the contents of the Bill as printed others write learned books. Mr Acting- and a-so with, .may I say, a minor Speaker, I would like, if I may, very technical amendment which will be humbly to congratulate this House on brought forward at the appropriate the political achievements that they stage. What I do wish to make quite have made, if I may very, very humbly clear at this stage is that with: the say so, over the last few years. May I exception of one clause, that is clause 2 finally say something about the Civil in which shotguns are specifically Service. The Manx Civil Service is a mentioned, this Bill does not apply to jolly good one. It has got a lot of very the ordinary sporting shotgun. It deals capable, hard-working, loyal, energetic only with firearms and also with shot- officers. Now may I make this plea to guns that have been sawn off. Now the you, hon. members, that you give as definition of afirearm is taken from much opportunity as possible to those the main Act of 1947—"that this part of officers who are anxious and willing to the Act applies to all firearms as defined take responsibility and to use initiative, in section 32 of this Act, except the to do so. After ail, there is not much following weapons and components point in having a dog and doing the thereof and accessories: a smooth-bore barking yourself, particularly when the. gun—that is a shotgun having a barrel dog eats quite a lot, and worse still if not less than 20 inches in length." We he is pensionable. Mr Acting-Speaker, are during the course of the Bill going hon. members, I would like to thank to amend that definition to 24 inches, you once again very much indeed for but it definitely does not apply.—I do your kindness and for this wonderful want to make this clear — to normal gift which I shall certainly always trea- sporting shotguns. "To an air-gun, an sure and be exceedingly proud to have. dix-rifle, or air-pistol not being of a Thank you, Mr Acting-Speaker. (Ap- type declared by rule, made by the plause). Governor to the specially dangerous." Mr and. Mrs Davies left the House. So I do reiterate that this Act in general with the one exception which I men- tioned, does not apply to either the ordinary shotgun, or to the ordinary FIRENINVIS BILL — RECEPTION OF air-gun. Mr Acting-Speaker, I beg to COMMITTEE'S REPORT AND move the acceptance of the committee's CONSIDERATION OF CLAUSES report.. The Acting-Speaker: The first business before the House this morning is the Mr Anderson: I be to second, Mr Firearms Bill--read' the second time on Acting-Speaker. the 14th February by Sir Henry Sugden Mr Simcocks: Mr Acting-Speaker, as —far reception of committee's report I understand it this Firearms Bill has and consideration of clauses. Are vou been introduced as a result of a change ready. Sir Henry? of the law in the United Kingdom. I Sir !Henry Sugden: Yes, sir. Mr gather that the change in the United Acting-Speaker, hon. members, the Kingdom was introduced in order to object of this Bill is clearly set out in combat an increase in the use of fire- the explanatory memorandum on the arms in connection with crime. The cover and it also mentioned in the report of the committee makes it clear report. At your wish a committee was that this state of affairs happily does

Firearms Bill—Reception of committee's report and consideration of clauses. 1240 HOUSE OF KEYS, APRIL 25, 1967 not exist in the Isle of Man, from which excuse, the proof whereof shall lie on I think we can gather the object of this him ..." and then if you go on to clause Bill is really to bring our law into line 5 — which deals with the powers of with England. In that respect I do not constables — in effect it says — "may quarre:, with the Bill or with the report. arrest such a person without warrant But one point which I feel should not any person whom he has reasonable pass without comment and that is the cause to suspect to be committing an remarks in the report concerning under- offence under the foregoing provisions water harpoon guns. Now I have no of this Act . ." Now I am wondering doubt that a harpoon gun sufficiently whether the hon. member can tell me powerful to catch a large fish under does this make any change in the water is indeed a very powerful position? ,Am I incorrect in assuming weapon.. On the other hand, I gather that if a young man who is in possession that these devices are not normally of a firearms certificate is trespassing actuated by means of an explosion, on land with say a -22 rifle, that if he and I think there is no doubt that the cannot prove that he has authority to missiles projected from them is a be on that land, could he be arrested? capsule missile. Furthermore, sir, I am That is my reading of the Bill, and If of the understanding that legislation in that is the case, is that a change as England does not regard these harpoon against the position under existing law? guns as being especially dangerous, and It strikes me as a somewhat interesting whereas. sir, I am prepared to go along point. with this Bill insofar as it restricts itself merely to coming into line with The Acting-Speaker: Mr Kerruish, all the United Kingdom law, I would not the House is being asked to do this be prepared to support the committee's' morning is to receive the report. The suggestion that we should go one step question of the legislative part of it in forward and ask the Governor to make the Bill itself under the clauses to raise underwater harpoon runs the subject these questions on the clause stage. of regulations. After all, sir, if we are Mr Kerruish: I am prepared to bow dealing with firearms, we are dealing to your ruling of course, Mr Acting- with firearms, it is•but a short step from Speaker. I took it that we were debating harpoon guns to bows and arrows, and the report of the committee which from bows and arrows to catapults. I reported on the whole of the Bill, and think, sir, that we should restrict the any aspects of the Bill which occurred activities of this Bill, and indeed restrict to hon. members were valid, matters to our acceptance of the committee's be raised et this stage. But of course I report to the subjects contained in the am quite prepared— Bill or in previous legislation. I would Suggest, sir, that the House, in accept- The Acting-Speaker: You have got a ing this report. accepts it without the valid point there and I am quite reference to underwater harpoon guns. prepared to accept it if you want to make the point. Mr Kerruish: Mr Acting-Speaker, there is just one aspect on this Bill on Mr Kerruish: Why I raised this at this which I would like the observations of stage, sir, was that it was ,a matter the hon. and gallant member who was which was tied up with two clauses and the chairman of the committee, and that not with a single clause. But it is just a is a point which was brought out in matter of inviting comments from the c:.auses 4 and 5. Clause 4 reads—"Any hon. member. person who, while he has a firearm with Mr Quayle: 'Mr Acting-Speaker, I him, enters or is on any land as a would like, sir, to reinforce the impor- trespasser and without reasonable tant point made by the hon. member

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for Rushen,. Mr Simcocks, in dealing from Rushen. I am .a bit worried about with harpoon guns. I take his parallel how far we go on this. We will end up of—I was thinking in terms of cross- where we will have permits for fishing bows actually, which is a much more rods and fishing lines, because they dangerous weapon in many cases than have a barbed hook. Because a small is a firearm, but I wouldn't want the boy standing at the end of the pier impression to go out from this House, throwing his line into the water and Mr Acting-Speaker, that harpoon guns there is a fish hook on it and it is barbed are in some way prohibited in the Isle is likely to catch someone and we of Man. While I know they could be on would have to have e permit to put a permit the impression would still be hook on a :ine. I think quite definitely gained that there is something against let us stick to what the Bill is—firearms them here. I want the House to bear in —and let's keep all these other things mind that underwater sports. is some- out of it. We will have so many regulia- thing that your Tourist Board is actively tion.s and restrictions we will have to trying to foster, and if we give the treble the police force to go around impression that the obvious bit of checking on people. I will have nothing equipment for such sports are prohibi- at al to clio with legislation specifically ted, this is not likely to engender more to introduce permtis for harpoon guns underwarter swimmers to this Island. for underwater fishing. The people who Mr Anderson: Mr Acting-Speaker. get them, they are in the sea, I admit actually it has been the people who have they are dangerous, I have seen an been involved in this who have raised accident happen with one, but so are the matter with the committee. The lots of other things. If we start legislat- people who use these and recognise the ing for everything in the world that is danger of the harpoon gun. Hon. dangerous—even the spring on a motor members will appreciate that these are car is a dangerous thing—we will end so designed—I understand by the expert up with nothing, there will be permits who was in contact with me—that if for springs, permits for motor cars and they penetrated the fish the idea was permits for everything else— that they opened them and you couldn't Mr Corkish: Including peashooters. pun them out. This could be extremely dangerous if they were used without Mr MacDonald: I want nothing at all unauthorised persons having complete to do with harpoon guns. knowledge of them. I quite frankly The Acting•-Speaker: It has been pro- would like to see some control over the posed and seconded that we receive the people who handle them, or irrespon- report of the committee appointed. by sible youngsters, that if they were used the House to consider the Firearms Bill. in such a way that could be more All those in favour say aye, against say dangerous, as somebody haspointed out, no. than what the firearms themselves could be. It was agreed. Mr Corkish: Mr Acting-Speaker, is Sir Henry Sugden: Thank you. Clause it correct that the point of a harpoon, 1, which increases really the powers of after it strikes, opens out? the police to deal really with anybody who is carrying a firearm, or an imita- Sir Henry Sugden; Yes, they are tion firearm. and do let me remind you barbed. it does not apply to the normal shotgun. Mr MacDonald: The only thing, Mr If the police consider that that weapon Acting-Speaker, I think about this, is is being carried. with intent to commit that first of all I agree with the hon. a serious offence or to prevent arrest, member Mr Quayle and Mr Simcocks well then the constable or whoever else

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it may be, police officer, may arrest the Mr Simcocks: Mr Acting-Speaker, I defendant. It is quite straightforward did wish to raise this point of what is and I beg to move cause I stand part of a public place. w e had a very interest- the Bill. ing judgment of His Worship the High- Bailiff only last Friday when I under- Mr Anderson: I beg to 'second. stand that certain persons were charged It was agreed. with committing an offence against the gaming laws in a public place. It was Sir Henry Sugden: Clause 2 is, I think, held because the activities took place perhaps one of the more important in a public house tnat these activities clauses in the Bill as it deals with the did not, curiously enough, take place in carrying of firearms in a public place, a public place. There would appear and it includes shotguns if they are tnerefore perhaps to be some grounds loaded— for consideration as to whether or not Mr Irving: On the roadway. the definition of what precisely is a public place, because in this Act the Sir Henry Sugden: In a public .place, definition might well be looked at. 1 and of course a roadway is a public imagine that if the amendment of the place. But it is only if those guns are hon. member for Middle, Mr Spittall, is loaded. Well now, I have been shooting accepted by the House, technically this for a very considerable number of years, Bill will have to return to another place perhaps most of my life, and I feel. quite for formal approval of that amendment. frankly that if any person carries a I feel, sir, that the learned Attorney- loaded gun, in a public place, whether it General might consider applying his be a roadway or the market place in mind to this problem when the Bill goes Ramsey or not, then he is doing some- back upstairs, because I am sure it thing which might well cause a serious would not be the wish of this House, or accident. He may slip, somebody may any other part of the legislature, to jostle with you and you may drop the have a state of affairs Where it would gun. Whether it is a rifle or a shotgun be illegal to carry a loaded gun in the it may well explode, and what may street, but apparently legal to have it happen—if think personally it is a very in a public house. It is a technical point reasonable safeguard to the general but one which perhaps might be looked public and I don't believe quite frankly at when the Bill returns, as it inevitably that it is the slightest hardship to any- will, to another place. body who has any knowledge and who uses guns at all. I beg to move. Mr Moore: I an rather at sea here with regard to section 2 of the Bill - Mr Anderson: I beg to second. loaded shotgun — whether loaded or Mr Corkish: Mr Acting-Speaker, about not. I am concerned about the chap who clause 2, the hon. mover has mentioned Is out shooting and he has to cross a about a public glace. Now suppose a public road to go to another field. to engage person is, say, out shooting up round the in that sport. Would he be liable Creg-ny-Baa Hotel and he decides to go to summary conviction for carrying into the.hotel with the shotgun, it may that loaded shot gun ? be loaded—is the hotel a public place? Mr Irving: Mr Acting-Speaker, sir, I understand that this is a copy of English Mr MacLeod: A public place I believe. legislation, and I agree with the hon. Mr Acting-Speaker, is any place where member for Rushen, Mr Simcocks, who the public has reasonable access to be has said that there they are dealing there. with a situation which we fortunately Mr Corkish: That is a very debatable haven't got here. I hope that we won't point. have that situation here, but I am very

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concerned at the increase in fines in Mr Callister: Well I don't think that this particular Bill. I know that it has in a bank one gets in the same state of been said that these increased. penalties intoxication as one does in a public are very unfair to any nationalist orga- house. Nor do they get quite so excited. nisation wishing to have an armed With regard to the han. member for rebellion. (Laughter.) But quite apart Rushen, I think that he is rather magni- from that I hope we won't go too far fying this, after all this is a very serious with increasing the amount of fines, matter, to carry guns about that are because when you look further at the loaded in public places. I would suggest schedule here some of these are techni- to him that these are maximum fines, cal offences which do take place from and if anybody happened to be crossing time to time and at the moment some- the road on his own farm perhaps — he times result in perhaps a fine of £5. I may be crossing a public road on his think we have got to be reasonable own farm — when he came before the about this. I hope the hon. member in court and he explained the circum- respect of this clause and future clauses stances I am perfectly certain that the where there is a penalty would be good fine would be a very lenient one. But to enough to draw to our attention the defeat the whole purpose of the Bill by change in the penalty. bringing such an example, I don't think there is any reason in that at all. I am Mr Faragher: Mr Acting-Speaker, I prepared to consider the Bill as a whole feel too as has been stated, if a man is because it has had the blessing in the out shooting with a double-barrelled United Kingdom af. wisdom and experi- gun and crossing the highroad he is enc.e, and I think instead of wasting approached by a policeman and he finds our time here and pretending to know that he has two shots in the gun — he all about the law and experience, we is liable, but yet, as has been stated, would be well advised to adopt this unless I am very much mistaken, he Bill. can go into a public house with. the gun loaded, and is quite all right. I think Mr Burke: Mr .Acting-Speaker, in that is a ridiculous position. I think a connection with clause 2, the reference person who would have the affrontery to a public place and the definition of a to enter an hotel with a loaded gun is public place, there seems to be absolutely ridiculous, and that man some disagreement in that respect, and should be punished, and more leniency I, would respectfully suggest that if this shown to the man who is out hunting was amended to include a public place and walks across the road, which is only or building, then that would cover the the natural thing to do. I don't think it Possibility of going into a public house is very natural fora person to bring a with the shotgun or whatever he might loaded gun into any house, let alone a have public house. Mr Kerruish: Mr Acting-Speaker, on Mr Kneale: Mr Acting-Speaker, I was a point of order, I was going to draw wondering if you went into a bank the hon. member's attention to the fact with a loaded gun, would that be a that under clause 9 a public place is public place ? (Laughter.) defined. Mr Callister: Mr Acting-Speaker, Mr Burke: Mr Acting-Speaker, in that having listened to the comments I feel case if a person was charged with with certain members that probably carrying a weapon in a public place, one of the most dangerous places to would it be under clause 2 or clause 9? take a laoded gun is in a public house. The Acting-Speaker: Perhaps the Mr Corkish: Or a bank. hon. member in charge of the Bill will

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be able to give the answer to some of unload your gun — it is the normal these questions. thing to do when you are crossing any obstacle — so I don't feel really that Sir Henry Sugden: Mr Acting-Speaker, there is any undue, shall I say impinge- I hope hon. members will excuse me ment, on the right of the individuals. if I do not reply to each one individu- With. regard to the increase in fines - ally although I naturally will deal with this I am grateful to the hon. member all the points that have been raised. for North Douglas for his very clear Now the main one of course is this explanation, ' because these are not question of a public place. I am not maximum fines. The court will of course aware quite frankly of the circum- take into consideration the circum- stances mentioned by the hon. and stances. After all, not so very long ago learned member for Rushen, but we this hon. House put up the fines for have in this Bill, as has been pointed poaching. Has the maximum fine ever out in clause 9, the interpretation of a been inflicted since that day? I per- public place, and of course that inter- sonally have never seen it reported so pretation applies to every clause in the in the paper — very far from it. So I Bill — not only just clause 2. The inter- think it is not unreasonable to rely on pretation is that a public place includes the courts in this business of fines. I any highway and any other premises or beg to move the clause. place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted to have Mr Irving: Mr Acting-Speaker, I won- access, whether on payment or other- der if the hon. member would tell us wise. Well surely that includes a public the increase in punishment. What is house, and I think that perhaps is a the increase? very good definition, and would cover Sir Henry Sugden: I beg your pardon. the case mentioned by the hon member Yes, indeed, they are all in clause 2, and for Rushen. I think there is a certain may I say it is not increased punish- amount of disquiet aibout somebody ment, but it is an increased maximum who is out shooting with a shotgun and fine, and section 2 — "On summary crosses a road— conv:ction imprisonment for a term The Acting-Speaker: Is there a meet- not exceeding six months or a fine not ing on at the other end there? Could we exceeding £200, or both." have silence there, please? Mr Irving: What was the old penalty Sir Henry Sugden: Somebody who is for this, carrying a loaded gun, sir? out shooting, quite legally, and crosses Sir Henry Sugden: That is not set out a road. Well there are two points about because I think I am right in saying that. First of all you are not permitted that there was in fact no penalty in to shoot on a public highway, nor within the old days for carrying a loaded gun. a specified, distance of .it. I'm afraid I It was not covered. haven't looked up the specified distance, The Acting-Speaker: The question it is in the original Act, but I think it before the House is that clause 2 stand is 100 yards, but there is a definite pro- part of the Bill. All those in favour say hibition of shooting on a highway aye, against say no. already — we are not considering that. It was agreed. The other thing is that it occurs to me that if you are going to cross the road Sir Henry Sugden: Clause 3, Mr Act- from one piece of ground to another, you ing-Speaker and hon. members — this have probably got to get over or through concerns trespassing with a firearm in a fence and you. have certainly got to a building, and the important part is - open a gate on both sides, well surely "any person who while he has a firearm in the interests of your own safety you with him enters or is in any building

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or part of a building as a trespasser our hon, learned member, I am not and without reasonable excuse" — the nappy about the highland which was committee considered this at some once common land and is now con- length because they said what happens trolled by the Forestry Board. Is it a if you are out shooting and there is an fact that a person would be trespassing old derelict stable or something like on this land with a shotgun? Would he that and you go into it to shelter, and be trespassing? the committee came to the conclusion Mr Kerruish: Yes, they are let. that anybody on the beach in their senses would frankly regard that as a Mr MacDonald: On common• land? reasonable excuse. Here again we are They are not all let, are they? of course relying on the good sense of Mr Kerru•ish: Oh yes. our magistrates. I beg to move. Mr MacDonald.: I still don't like it. Mr MacLeod: I beg to second. Mr Kerruish: The point I would like It was agreed. to know in connection with this matter, Sir Henry Sugden: Clause 4 — this Mr Acting-Speaker, is the difference deals with trespassing and it deals with between the proposed penalties in trespassing only with a firearm. It is clause 4 and existing 'penalties. I think not one of those clauses which includes every member of this House isconscious and ordinary shotgun. As I think mem- of the need for exercising as much. bers know, when you get a firearms caution as possible in. the use of fire- certificate you have entered on it the arms, but rifles, and I am thinking of location of the properties on which you small-bore rifles that are used generally have authorisation to shoot with the by young men at the beginning of their particular firearm that you are having shooting career, they have to get a fire- entered on the certificate. Now again arms certificate from the police and your committee considered this in they are also liable of course to have a considerable detail because what they gun licence at the same time. Well we felt was that if a man is out shoot- know what young men are, we know ing, perhaps up on the hills or even on what we were when we were young, a farm, and inadvertently he goes from most of them will stray off the beaten one property to another, well there path and maybe trespass. Now these are again the committee had two comments very heavy penalties, and later on we on this, firstly that a firearm where it is say that the person so trespassing shall not, shall I say, in expert hands, bullets be liable to arrest. I would very much can carry a very long way, and I for like the hon. and gallant member to tell one have, once on this Island and once us, did. the previous penalties for this elsewhere, have, shall I say, been shot partict.C,ar offence include the possibility over by a rifle, by somebody out no of imprisonment, and what was the doubt after rabbits or something like extent of the fine? Because although the that. I get very angry with them, even clause says "without reasonable excuse" in wartime, when I am shot at. I don't — well what is a reasonable excuse? like it, but I do feel very definitely that Supposing a person, a young man, anyone out shooting with a rifle, well knowingly does trespass, and young they should jolly well know where they men do — are they liable to summary are. I beg to move. arrest, and also how do these penalties Mr MacLeod: I beg to second. compare with. existing penalties? Mr MacDonald: Mr Acting-Speaker, I Mr .MaeLeod: Mr Acting-Speaker, am not too happy about this trespassing there is one question. I would' like to in the Isle of Man. Perhaps the hon. ask. The last speaker said that all the member for Rusher could advise us, mountain land was let to various people

Firearms Bill—Reception of committee's report and consideration of clauses. 1,246 HOUSE OF KEYS, APRIL 25, 1967 for shooting, would he like to tell me the civil law—to do so with the firearms who is the shooting tenant on the is now an offence punishable, if this is Twelve Shares for instance? passed, under the Firearms Bill, under Mr Kerruish: I think this is a the Firearms Act, and not under the completely irrelevant. question, but I straight ordinary common or garden admit it does stem out of a comment I trespass which anybody may do with or made. Generally speaking, all the land without a gun—particularly without. vested in the Forestry, Mines and Lands The Acting-Speaker: Could I read this Board are let to graziers and to shoot- section of the Petty Sessions and ing tenants. As far as the Twelve Summary Jurisdiction Act of 1928 Shares are concerned, this I understand which is referring to the point which is a peculiar piece of land in the vicinity has been made. "Section 61—Trespass- of the Beary and I gather that Twelve Any person who shall commit any of the Shares refers to 12 shares of that next following offences shall be liable previous common land which is the to the punishment hereafter specified. rights attached to 12 particular agricul- (1) Any person who shall wilfully tres- tural holdings. I presume that the pass in any field, garden, pleasure grazing rights and the shooting rights ground, wood, plantation, or other are vested in. the owners or the tenants place shall be liable to a fine not exceed- of the 12 landowners who have access ing 10s. with costs, and any such person to the Twelve Shares. That is the best who shall neglect or refuse to leave any answer I can give to that. such place after he shall have been Mr IV.lac.,Donald: The grazing and the warned to do so .by the owner or by the shooting don't go together, do they? caretaker or a servant of the owner, or Mr Kerruish: -Well no, not necessarily. by any person authorised in that behalf Sir Henry Sugden: First of all, Mr by the owner, shall be liable to .a fine Acting-Speaker, with regard to the not exceeding 20s. Any person who shall penalties. Under the main Act the again trespass in any such place within offence of trespass was not dealt with three months from the time when such so I cannot give you a comparison with a warning shall have been so given to the previous Act, but the trespass was him shall be liable to a fine not exceed- dealt with under the ordinary normal :mg 40s." • civil Iaw and I am very sorry I am not Mr MacLeod: Mr Acting-Speaker, that an expert lawyer on this matter, and I is only ordinary trespassing. NoW how am afraid I do not know what the would you like somebody prowling penalty under the ordinary law for around your house tOnirrht with .a gun, trespass was. a rifle, in your back garden— Mr Crowe: It was a very very small The ActingeSpeaker: I have only read one. this section of the Act. I am not Sir Henry Su.aden:.It was, so I believe.. But no doubt our learned. Clerk cou'd look this up, or I could certainly find Mr MacLeod: But that is ordinary out and give you an answer at a later trespassing, we are talking about fire- date, but there was in fact no specific arms. penalty for trespass with a firearm The Acting-Sneaker: The question under the previous Firearms Bill, so before the House. gentlemen and Miss again I am afraid II cannot give you the Thornton-Duesbery, is that clause 4 comparison. I think that was really the stand part of the Bit. All those in main point raised by the hon. member favour say aye, against no. for Peel, and the whole of this trespass business is, generally speaking, part of It was agreed.

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Sir Henry Sugden: Clause 5 caused Mr MacLeod: No, you can't, so sit the committee quite a considerable down. amount of discussion and we decided Mr Moore: Mr Acting-Speaker, may I that we would• have the advice of the ask -a question? legal assistant to the Attorney-General The Actin:Y.:Speaker: We are on clause because it did appear to us at first sight 5. You may speak on it, Mr Moore. that it was a very comprehensive matter and was giving perhaps the police too Mr Moore: I am concerned that the great a power., but it was explained to mover should give us a reasonable us that it is, in every case, u•p to the explanation whether this is absolutely police to convince the court that they a new clause or whether it is Contained have in fact reasonable cause to suspect under the old Act. I think that would anybody of having a firearm and again be a very reasonable request. this applies to firearms only, not shot- Mr Faragher: Mr Acting-Speaker, it guns, it is up to the police to prove that is rather confusing because the mover they have reasonable cause of suspicion started off by saying that ordinary that the person is about, or may commit 12-bore guns were outside of this an offence before they arrest them. If particular that arrest is challenged., very serious Sir Henry Sugden: With one exception penaities can be awarded against the —clause 2. I made that quite clear. police in favour of the person wrong- fully arrested. After due consideration Mr Fararzher: Well would it not apply your committee do recommend that this in clause 4? clause be accepted as it stands. .I beg Sir Henry Sugden: No, sir. to move. Mr Faragher: It is still confusing. Mr Anderson: I beg to second. The Acting-Speaker: Could the mover of the Bill indicate to the House if there The Acting-Speaker: Could just is any new clause, and when an old point out .to some of the members, I Cause- is in it so that members will notice in the last two or three clauses know? that we have been discussing there have Sir Henry Sugden: Well as I under- been strong opinions about certain stand it, it is all new, aspects of it, it is up to any member to propose amendments if they wish the Kerruish: Are we dealing with laws to be made that way, and I think clause 5, sir? Well I would be glad if it is only fair to the mover that he is the hon. and gallant member could prepared to consider, if anybody has got answer the query I posed in my opening any ideas on this subject, to put them remarks, sir, when we were considering forward. the report. Does sub-section (4) of clause 5 mean that if a person is out Mr Irving: Mr Acting-Speaker, I had shooting in a sporting capacity and he on clause 4—trespassing on land—but trespasses on land, despite the tact that unfortunately I did not know what the he has a gun licence and despite the fact original punishment was until the hon. that he has a firearms certificate, he is member had. replied and it was too late :fable to arrest without warrant, unless for me to move an amendment. As .a he can satisfy the officer concerned that matter of fact it is a completely new he has a reasonable excuse for trespass- thing, but I was not aware of that until ing? A person trespassing with a sport- the hon. member had replied. So I would ing rifle on• land: is liable to arrest with- have liked to have moved an amend out warrant. I would be glad if the hon. ment there but you see I -can't see how member would clarify that position I can now. because, like the hon. member for East

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Douglas, I wasn't very happy about firearms and ammunition) or section 24 clause 4, but on legal definition like (shortened shotguns) . ." So the this it is difficult to do anything oft the constable's powers of arrest without a cull, and when I see that sub-section (4) warrant are really very circumscribed of clause 5 ties in with that cause, my indeed, and they very definitely do not misgivings are even more strong on this apply to anybody who is out shooting particular matter. Perhaps the hon. and with a shotgun and who may wander gallant member could help me on this. off the place where he is allowed to be. MT Anderson.: Now that the railway They only apply if the person is in fact is going again, we may have another carrying a loaded shotgun in a public train robbery. We have got to cater for place. I do hope that explanation is clear it you know. because it gives the constable really very prescribed powers and if they Mr Kerruish: Well I would say, sir, overstep them, well they may be in very that the possibility of the Isle of Man serious trouble indeed.. I beg to move. Railway being held up is somewhat remote. (Laughter.) Mr Irving: May I ask a question on this? Is the position, sir, that a constable Mr Devereau: I do think, Mr Acting- can arrest without warrant anybody Speaker, that sub-section (4) in clause who is carrying a loaded shotgun and 5 may :.ead to some serious misunder- crosses a mountain path where there is standing to say the least. Where a man a public right of way? There are no may be shooting with every right and hedges, no gates, he is just. walking not trespassing and then he comes and across a piece of land. If he has e shot- sees some game a little further on and gun loaded as he crosses this pathway he goes and finds he is trespassing. If can he be arrested without a warrant? he is trespassing in that case he can be That is if he has a shotgun, is that arrested without a warrant. That is a correct? If he has a sporting rifle and if very serious position. he is on. any land at all trespassing he Sir Henry Sugden: NLr Acting-Speaker, can be arrested without a warrant even I think really the points where in sub- though he has a sporting rifle, is that section (4) it says—"A constable may right? arrest without warrant any person whom he has reasonable cause to Sir Bsary Su.gden: I would say in suspect to be committing an offence ..." reply to that, that with regard to the and. the proof has got to be on the sporting rifle, if he is on land for which constable that he has reasonable cause, he has got a permit to shoot, then he is that is the first thing, as I explained all right, he is absolutely in the clear. already, "reasonable cause to suspect Now with regard to a loaded shotgun to be committing an offence under the crossing a mountain path — well it is, foregoing provisions of this Act." That according to this, a public place possibly is what we have already dealt with, one because the definition of a public place of which—and the only one of which —any highway and any other premises will apply to shotguns—is carrying it in or place to which at the material time a public place, as I have explained the public have or are permitted to have several times, ordinary shotguns are not access. Well I suppose technically, sir, included in this except in clause 2 which a constable could arrest somebody deals with the carrying of shotguns in crossing a pub is right of way up in the a public place. ". . . the foregoing pro- mountain, !Nit would really any con- visions of this Act or under section 17 stable in his sense do that? Would there (prohibited weapons and ammunition). be a constable there? I doubt it. and under section 21 (prohibition on The Acting-Speaker: The question be- ex-prisoners and others from possessing fore the 1-louse is that clause 5 stand.

Firearms Bill—Reception of committee s report and consideration of clauses. HOUSE OF KEYS, APRIL 25, 1967 1249 part of the Bill. All those in favour say at the moment the fine is £20, but to aye, those against say no. put that up too to £200 I think is non- It was agreed. sensical. The same thing in section 17(2) — again where you have more Sir Henry Sugden: Clause 6, sir, deals than the number of ammunition which with the increase in severity of you should have, and you could be fined sentences under the principal Act and again £200 and there the term of im- those contained in the schedule. Would prisonment could go up to five years. you .ike me to take them now, sir? On these little sections, Mr Acting- The Acting-Speaker: Yes, we will Speaker, that I have mentioned, I would keep them together. like to say that the old sentence, if it Sir Henry Sugden: If hon, members was doubled, I think that should be would turn to the schedule, they are ample, and not put up 10 times the set out. Do hon, members wish me to amount. This is something in the Isle go through them all, or would they of Man, rifle shooting is a business just like to question me? which is gone into very thoroughly and an awful lot of people make use of it, Mr Crowe: If you are dealing with but just for the sake of having a few the schedule now, Mr Acting-Speaker, extra bullets and using your rifle for I think it is absolutely ridiculous, on something which maybe you haven't page 9 for instance, section 1 (2) (b) - got on your permit, although which (breach of conditions of a firearms you can have on your permit if you certificate). Now then when •you get a wish to, I think the fines are out of all firearms certificate you make applica- proportion, and I would say on those tion to the police and you have the four sections that the fines could be at certificate returned when you tell them least doubled in each case, but not put what type of rifle you will buy, and it up 10 times. is laid dawn that you have a specified number of bullets in your possession. If The Acting-Speaker: Does the hon. you have more than the specified num- member wish to move an amendment ber of bullets in your possession. If you to that effect? have more than the specified number of bullets you are liable then on con- Mr Crowe: I would. I will move that viction to a fine of £200 and a term of amendment, sir. On page 9, section 1 imprisonment not exceeding six months. (2) (b) — that is having the extra bul- It is absolutley nonsensical in that lets in your possession; section 4(13) - case, for instance. In the case of section that is a false statement which could 4 (13) (false statement for the purpose be laid to applying for a licence for of procuring permit for firearms or range shooting and then using it maybe ammunition), therefore, if you, as many to shoot a rabbit or to shoot a rook; young people in the. Island do now, get page 10, section 12(4) — where a dealer permits for rifles to just take part in in firearms, if he fails to enter a sale, ordinary rifle range shooting and they he could be in trouble straight away. use that same rifle to go out and shoot Now they are fined at the present time rooks, for instance, somewhere where for this, and it is usually just an over- they would be permitted to go, their sight. and at the moment the fine is £20, fine could now be a possible £200, some- and if it was I think doubled that would thing which is also ridiculous. On behalf be sufficient. Section 17(2)—there again of the traders on page 10, section 12(4) we don't have many manufacturers but (failure to enter firearms transactions if you have more ammunition than that in the register, and false entry in the which is authorised to you, you can register), now sometimes there can be have a fine o: £200, and I think this is a failure, and this is really an oversight, absolutely nonsensical — I think that

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one, too, if the fine was doubled it of justices, of whom the hon. member should cover it amply. is one himself, will administer the law sensibly. If a case occurs where the Mr Simcocks: Mr Acting-Speaker, I offence is one of mere oversight by a think the House should remember at law-abiding citizen, he may rest as- least two points when considering the sured that the penalty will be as remarks of the hon. member for nominal as heretofore. But at least the Michael. First of all that the penalties i'orces of justice in the Isle of Man which are prescribed in this Bill are will by this Bill be given the power of maximum penalties beyond which no dealing with. any armed criminality court can go, and we know very often which might break out.. I think the that the court always retain their flexi- House should regard this Bill in that bility of approach and very frequently sense, and do not tie the hands of the the fines actually imposed are tailored powers of justice. by the bench to suit the circumstances, and very often represent only a tiny Mr Moore: Mr Acting-Speaker, I am fraction of the maximum. The second not too happy about the statement point we should remember is this, as made by the hon. member for Rushen, was said in the committee's report this because I feel it is the individual inter- bill is intended to meet conditions which pretation of magistrates that counts. It currently exist in the United Kingdom, is not so very long ago when a bookie's and might be regarded, I think, as a runner was fined a considerable sum of discouragement to similar conditions money, and a lad who beat up a female ever occurring in the Isle of Man. got a very small sentence in the same Now it is one thing to say it is court. I think we are leaving too much ridiculous to have a maximum fine of in the power of magistrates in that res- £200 just because a fellow has got a pect. It is all right saying that this is few more rounds of ammunition than the maximum, but even if you fine he ought to have. Looked at in the three-quarters of the maximum that sense o: an innocent oversight by a law- could be an exorbitant sum for a small abiding citizen, that is perfectly true, offence, and in conclusion aren't we sir, but criminal Bills are not drawn pointing out by making these maximum- up in order to deal with the oversights fines the seriousness of that particular of law-abiding citizens. If these penal- section of the Act, We must be doing ties were looked at in the sense that that, and there-:ore we are putting it this Bill is designed in England to into that magistrate's mind that it is so eradicate armed criminal gangs, and in serious in your opinion that you can the Isle of Man to prevent our being give the maximum fine for this particu- scourged by them, I think these penal- lar offence. ties will 'become a good deal more Mr MacLeod: Mr Acting-Speaker, sensible. This Bill is not aimed at inno- everybody must be taken into con- cent oversights. This Bill is aimed at sideration even though this maximum dealing with a very serious problem of penalty is put in the hands of the magis- armed criminality in the United King- trates. If a mazistrate, in the opinion dom, and I think if this House regards o! an offender exceeds what he thinks is this Bill and these penalties as a pre- far and away above the penalty that he ventive of our being pestered by the thinks should be imposed upon him, he same terrible events, I think, sir, we has always got the right of appeal to should leave these penalties as they are, anybody he likes. In ordinary court pro- remembering that our system of admini- cedure the thing is the same, if a person stration of justice is such that as the thinks he has been too harshly dealt penalties are maximum penalties only, with he can always appeal to a higher we may rest assured that the benches court, and I am sure and certain •that

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the hon. men who are judges who come shall I say directly, to the questions over from England in the. appeal court posed by my hon. colleague from are not men of straw, they are men Michael. He is a magistrate and I am of legal ability who know exactly what not, and he knows well what goes on in they are doing. So 1 don't think there is the courts, but I would like to thank anything to fear in this. As it has been the hon. member for Rushen for his said by the hon. member for Rushen, this is a preventive, it is not the cure, very clear statement. These offences because there is no cure for anybody may be terribly serious if — and this is who has been shot. I don't think we the important part I think, Mr Acting- should interfere with this Bill at all. Speaker — if they are wilfully com- Leave it as it is. If the people in their mitted for illegal purposes. Now great wisdom who sit in the courts overstep play has been made of the person who their jurisdiction, they can always might have a couple of bullets, 102 appeal. So I hope that you will leave instead of 100. I would suggest quite these penalties exactly as they are in frankly that tits case would never the schedule. come to a court. These penalties are aimed not at the chap who may be just Mr Crowe: Naturally, Mr Acting- a bit careless and forgets that he has Speaker, I can't ask a question of the run down shall .1 say to 30 cartridges, hon. member for Rushen, but could I rifle cartridges, he has got a licence for ask a question of the hon. mover of 50, he gets a box of 25, and he is up to this Bill? The first would be — is it not 55. It is not aimed at him and I cannot a fact, sir, that when the maximum think, as explained by the hon. member penalty is imposed that should give for Rushen, that in a case of that nature a,1icati.,n to the magistrates who are the bench would fine him £200 or what- sitting on the case whether the offence ever it may be. There is, and I have is a very serious 'one or not, and whe- spoken to one gunsmith, one leading ther that maximum penalty should gunsmith, about these clauSes and he indicate to them what should be the was not in any way perturbed about amount of the fine? Now in another them. He said "Well, I have been run in case, could I ask another questtion? for doing wrong things. Sometimes it That is this, if in the Isle of Man it is hasn't been entirely my fault because going to be an offence worth £200 to somebody has come to me with a re- the government, if that maximum fine placement firearms certificate, and on was going to he imposed, would it not that replacement firearms certificate the be a fact that any criminal who was in police have not entered in the amount the Isle of Man could not be fined under of ammunition that the person con- this because under permit he could cerned has had be:ore, but I have had have 200 bullets and that would be it in my book and quite inadvertently sufficient for any scheme that he would I have issued that person more than he want to carry out. This is something ought to have, which I had a record of, above what you should have in your so I have 'been at fault." He has not possession according to your permit. said that these are too stiff. What he Now if it is a criminal tendency to said is that perhaps they are a very have two bullets over your 100 allow- good thing because during the summer ance, it seems abscilutely nonsensical to we get people coming over here from me, and doesn't make any difference Southern Ireland, where of course there so far as the criminal is concerned, they have to have permits to buy a shot- because his permitted amount would. be gun, buying up shotguns here. So ille- enough for his nefarious motives. • gal trading in this sort of thing might Sir Henry Sugden: Mr Acting-Speaker, well grow over here and I do suggest I don't know in a way that I can reply, to all hon. members that we should

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accept these as set out bearing in mind The Acting-Speaker: The amendment that no-one, 1 suggest, will convict and tails 10 votes against and nine votes in fine heavily.any young man who has favour. Now I will put the substantive got a firearms certificate for his rifle motion before the House as it is stated shooting club rifle, and who just goes. in the schedule and the section. All out to get a few rabbits. I do feel, as those in- favour say aye, against say no. suggested by the hon. member for It was agreed. Rushen, that we have got to rely on our courts. I beg to move. Sir Henry Sugde.n: Clause 7, Mr Acting-Speaker, deals with the ability The Acting-Speaker: The question of the Chief Constable to -make condi- before the House is that clause 6, which tions for the registration of firearms includes the schedule to the Bill, stand dealers. IL rather enlarges the existing part of the Bill, and to which now 1 provisions which are in section 8 of the have received an amendment on page main Act. I think they are ail really 9, section 1(2)(b), section 4(13), and straightforward. They do not impose page 10, section 12(4) and section 17(2). any undue hardships on anybody who I will put the amendment to the may wish to become registered as a— House— Mr MacLeod: Mr Acting-Speaker, Sir Henry Sugden: Was it seconded? may I draw your attention that there is not a quorum in the House. Mr MacDonald: 1 will second it. Mr Corkish: There are 13. Mr MacLeod: What is the amend"- meat? Mr MacLeod: It is 16 for a quorum, Mr Acting-Speaker. The Acting-Speaker. The amendment is simply that we double up on the The Acting-Speaker: Thirteen is a original figures. In section 1(2)(rb) it quorum. This is new logic altogether would be £100, section 4(13) it would this. What is the relevant Standing be £40, section 12(4) it would be £40, Order, Mr Secretary, please? and section 17(2) it would be £40— The Secretary: Standing Order 21 - The House is not constituted unless at Mr Devereau: What about the prison least a quorum be present. Standing sentence, Mr Acting-Speaker? Order 22 — If it shall appear, on atten- The Acting-Speaker: He hasn't said tion being called thereto, that a quorum anything about that, there is nothing in of members be not present, Mr Speaker the amendment to that effect, it is only shall adjourn the House to such time the money part of it. You know what or date as, considering the business we are voting on. All those in favour before the House, to him seems fit. The of the amendment say aye, against say definition of a quorum by Standing no. Order 1 — A quorum means in the case A division was called for and voting of the House 13 members. resulted as follows:— The Pvcting;Sneaker: Proceed, Sir For — Messrs. Crowe, Kerruish, Henry. Quayle, Moore, Corkish, Irving, Sir Henry 'Sur,-den: As I was saying, in Devereau. MacDonald and the the opinion. of the committee of the Acting-Speaker-9. House the conditions which are out- Against — Miss Thornton-Duesbery, lined, in section 7 do not impose any Messrs. Anderson, MacLeod, Spit- undue hardship on any person who may tall, Faragher, Simcocks, Callister, wish to become, or who is, a firearms Burke, Kneale and Sir Henry Sug- dealer. I beg to move. den-10. Mr MacLeod: I beg to second.

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Mr CaMister: I want to know more safeguard for anybody who may feel about this, Mr Acting-Speaker — "The himself aggrieved in any way whatso- chief officer of police may at any time ever. impose conditions . .." I want to know Mr Callister: The hon. and gallant exactly a great deal more about the member hasn't suggested to us or given powers of the police and what conditions us any inklinf,: whatever on what they are entitled to impose. grounds the chief officer of police could Mr MacLeod: It is English law. impose these, he hasn't given us the Mr MacDonald: I agree with the hon. slightest inkling on what grounds. He member for North Douglas, I am not does say that they are contained in all happy at all about this, NIr Acting- the regulations, well until I have some Speaker. If the police are in a position idea of the powers of the police and to strike a man off the regiSter, a reasons for which they would do this, I register of firearms deals is kept and I am not going to vote for this clause. don't accept at all that the Chief Sir Henry Sugden: Well, Mr Acting- Constable be allowed to remove Speaker, I can go through all these someone from the register without it regulations, but I must ask why does going to a court. one appoint a committee of the House The Acting-Speaker: Well of course if for a thing of this nature? you are against it you will have to vote Mr Callister: To give us the informa- against it. tion and we haven't got it. Sir Henry Sugden: Mr Acting-Speaker, The Acting-Speaker: You had better a reply is contained in all these docu- try and give him something. ments which I have here. It would, take Mr Kerruish: Mr Acting-Speaker, I me a very long time indeed to go wonder if the hon. and gallant member through them all, but they are all set could help the House by indicating what out, and your committee—after all you change this clause would effect with did appoint a committee for this—were regard, to the present position. Are there quite satisfied with this clause. .1 would, any fundamental changes or are they if you want me to, draw attention to 7 simply minor changes? (4) — "A person aggrieved by the Sir Henry Sugden: I would say in imposition or variation of, or refusal to repy to that question that the change vary or revoke, any such condition shall is that it does enable—it gives the Chief have the like right of appeal under Constable certain wider powers. The section 8 (5) of the principal Act as a previous Act dealt with the registra- person aggrieved by the refusal of a tion, mainly, of the places of business chief officer of police to register him as of firearms dealers. This enables the a firearms dealer." Now section, 8 (5) Chief Constable to, for instance, make of the principal Act —• "Any person absolutely certain that a person aggrieved by a refusal of a chief officer dealing in firearms may have a suitable of police to register him as a firearms lockstore for rifle ammunition, a suit- dealer, or to the removal of his name able rack in which rifles can be stored, from a register by the chief officer of and padlocked un so that they cannot police, may appeal to the High-Bailiff." be readily removed in• the event of a So anybody who is aggrieved in any break-in to those premises. way whatsoever by the Chief Constahle has the right of appeal to the High- Mr Kerruish: Thank you, sir. Bailiff. The Chief Constable is very The Acting-Speaker: The question be- much, shall I say, under the eye, in this fore the House is that clause 7 stand connection, of the High-Bailiff. I feel part of the Rill. All those in favour say really that that surely is an adequate aye, against say no.

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ht was agreed. . of three months or upwards, and it extends the period during which they Sir Henry Sugden: Clause 8, sir, deals cannot be issued with a certificate to with certain amendments to the five years. I understand' previously it principal Act and the first one is that was three. Sub-section (4) is somewhat formerly ordinary shotguns were illegal similar in its implication inasmuch as it if the barrels were sawn off so that the applies to people convicted and young resulting length of barrel was under 20 persons convicted under the Young inches. This amendment makes any Persons Acts. Sub-section (5) deals with sawn-off shotgun of which the barrels one aspect of the principal Act concern- are 24 inches or less illegal — that is ing the registration of firearms dealers. sub-section (1). Sub-section (2), that The main Act states that no person again "(a) if it appears to the chief other than a registered firearms dealer officer of police that a person required shall shorten the barrel of a smooth- to be registered as a firearms dealer bore gun to a length of less than 20 carries on a trade or business in the inches. It now makes it illegal for a course of which he manufactures, tests firearms dealer to shorten the barrel to or repairs component parts or acces- a length of less than 24 inches. Sub- sories for shotguns, but does not manu- section (6)—in section 25 (1) of the facture, test or repair complete shot- original Act—this means that whereas guns, and that it is impossible to originally if a person was sentenced to assemble a shotgun from the parts penal servitude or imprisonment the likely to come into that person's posses- court could order the forfeiture of a sion in the course of that trade or firearm, this extends that ability of the business, the chief officer of 'police may, court to forfeit the firearm to include if he thinks fit, by notice in writing borstal training, or detention in a given to that person exempt his trans- detention centre. I beg to move. actions in those parts and. accessories, so long as the notice is in force, from all Mr Anderson: I beg to second. or any of the provisions of sub-sections 'Mr Spitta:1: Mr Acting-Speaker, I beg (1) and (2) of the previous provision," to move the amendment which is down and section (b) deals with shotguns as. in my name, to this clause. It is purely set out in the second schedule. Well a legal matter which I think the now, what R can say as regards these ordinary mortals amongst 'us will hardly (a) and (b) is that there are certainly. understand' anyway,.but it would-appear a number of dealers who feel that they in fact that the principal Act was at do not go far enough, In the United fault even without this amending legis- Kingdom they have what is known as lation, and it might even have been the proof Acts, they are in fact two, and difficult to get conviction. This, 1 under- those proof Acts make it illegal for any stand from the legal department, this dealer to repair any weapon which they proposed amendment will in fact make may not consider to be safe, and it possible to enforce the law. particularly those on which the barrels Mr Moore: I will second the amend- are not safe, or which they consider ment. would not stand up to a proper proof test. We have got no such legislation in ,Mr Corkish: Mr Acting-Speaker, I this Island, and in fact at the present wonder could' the hon. mover tell us, time anybody can get any old weapon what is the correct length of an ordinary likely to burst at any time, repaired. shotgun? Sub-section (3) — this deals with the Sir 'Henry Sugden: Well I could prohibition of people holding firearms answer that, Mr Acting-Speaker. There who have been sentenced to penal is in fact no specified length. I would servitude or to imprisonment for a term say that the normal shotgun barrel may

Firearms Bill—Reception of committee's report and consideration of clauses. HOUSE OF KEYS, APRII., 25, 1967 1255 vary between 30 inches down possibly definitely indeed. I have the book here. to as :low as 25 inches. I know of no As regard's the amendment posed by the normal shotgun that has ever been hon. member for Middle, that I. accept. produced of less than 25 inches. The Acting-Speaker: The question Mr Crellin: Mr Acting-Speaker, on before the House — I take it, hon. the question of the length of shotguns, members, that you agree to accept the I should like to know whether this technical amendment proposed by Mr clause 8 (1) regarding the shortening of Spilt all, a shotgun below 24 inches is in fact It was agreed. following English legislation. Because if it is then see no point in opposing it, The Acting-Speaker: Well all those in if it is not and. 'f it is introducing new favour of clause 8, as amended, stand- Manx legislation on its own account I ing part of the Bill say aye, against say think this cou'd possibly be resisted, no. because in spite of what the hon. and It was agreed. gallant mernher for Ramsey may say, I S:r Henry Sugden: Clause 9. Mr have used a shotgun with a barrel Acting-Speaker, is the interpretation. I shorter than 24 inches, and in those think this is all very carefully set out, good old days before myxomatosis was and we have already dealt really at introduced into the Isle of Man it was some ,length with the question of a of immense value when ferreting. It is public place and I beg to move. also of immense value to a farmer on bird-scaring to have a gun which is Mr MacLeod: I beg to second. shorter than that because of the. spread It was agreed. of the shot. Therefore if this part is not Sir Henry Sugden: I beg to move that following new English legislation I clause 10—short title, citation, construc- should be inclined to oppose it. With tion, extent and commencement--stand regard to section 8 (2) I should support part of the Bill. this very strongly. I know of a case only in the past couple of years or so where Mr Anderson: I beg to second. a well-known gun dealer was called out It was agreed. to Marown or somewhere by a gentle- man who wanted him to inspect his two beautiful guns., and he went out to have a look at them, and he opened them up, NOTICE OF INTENTION TO all in their lovely case, took one of the INTRODUCE A 1317,T, TO guns out, assembled it and looked down AMENDMENT OF SHOP HOURS ACT the barrel and he could see little shafts The Acting-Speaker: That I think of light coming in through the sides. He concludes the business of the House for said to the gentleman concerned, he this morning. Did Mr Crellin want to said, "do you realise, sir, that this gun put something before we adjourn until is positively lethal — it is the most 2-30 -p.m.? dangerous thing you could have in your poSsession?" He said, "don't you talk to Mr Crellin: Yes, Mr Acting-Speaker, me like that about my gun, she is an I beg on behalf of the hon. member for awful good .0-un, that. Mind you, she Ramsey, Mr Kelly, that we introduce puffs a bit." (Laughter.) legis:ation to repeal the Shop Hours Act 1953/57. Sir Henry: Sugden: IVIr Acting-Speaker, I can say very definitely to the hon. The Acting-Speaker: Thank you, Mr member for B,ushen that this question Crellin. The House will stand adjourned of shortening to 24 inches has already until 2-30 p.m. been done in the United Kingdom. Very The House adjourned for 'lunch.

Notice of intention to introduce a Bill to Amendment of Shop Hours Act. 1256 HOUSE OF KEYS. APRIL 25, 1967

CONSTITUTION AMENDMENT (No. 2) hands of the people's elected representa- BILL, SECOND AND THIRD tives, namely the House of Keys. Great READINGS—A.PPROVED strides have been made, especially The Acting-Speaker: The next business during the past 10 years. The setting up on the agenda, hon. members, is No. 2, of the MacDermott Commission in Sexual Offences Bill by Mr Anderson March 1958 was mainly due to the for further consideration of the clauses. agitating of the House of Keys, who had Mr Kneale: Mr Acting4Speaker, may become more than a little annoyed at I move that the House take item No. 6 the way their aims and ideas were being on the agenda next—Isle of Man Consti- thwarted by the Legislative Council. tution Amendment (No. 2) Bill? The set-up of the Executive Council came in for severe criticism from the Mr Ma-eLeod: What for? Keys and they put forward a suggestion -Mr Kneate: I think it is important to that a new Executive Council consisting get this through as early as possible in of five members should be elected by this session to give the Legislative the Keys only. Their idea was that Council a chance to deal with it. Time immediate'y after the General Election is starting to catch up on us now, it has the first job of the Keys would be to been on, the go since January and was elect a chairman of the Executive actually notified, before the other Bills Council. This person is referred to that are coming forward now that are throughout the evidence before the Mac- on the agenda. So I move that we take Dermott Commission as tieing compar- item No. 6. able to a Prime Minister. The chairman would select another four -members of Mr Moore: I second that. the Legislature to form with him the The Acting-Speaker: It is in the Executive Council. He would then hands of the House, gentlemen, submit his policy and the names of his chosen four to the House of Keys for a It was agreed. vote of confidence. These five members Mr Kneale: Thank you, Mr Acting- would not serve on any board; they are Speaker. There is nothing new or referred to throughout the evidence as original about this Bill. The evolution a cabinet. It was then proposed that of the idea of an Executive Council goes this Executive Council, or Cabinet, back to 1907 when the Keys petitioned would select the chairmen and members for such a body to be set un. But the of the boards of 'Tynwald, such selec- MacDonnell Committee reported unani- tions to be confirmed or rejected by mous'y against the idea on the following Tynwa:d. It is obvious from this that grounds: (1) The conception is foreign the House of Keys were declaring very to the Manx Constitution; (2) It would forcibly that they were competent and introduce an irresoonsible secret and ready to take over the government of undefined power for whose mistakes the the Isle of Man, and were basing their Governor would be responsible; (3) A ideas on the well-tried- system of West- reformed Legislative Council would minster where the Commons form the provide the Governor with an adequate Government. The main spokesman for advisory body; (4) It would interfere the Keys when presenting this idea with the functioning of the boards of before the Commission was our present Tynwald, I do not think I need go over Speaker. Mr H. C. Kerruish. Previous to the whole history of constitutional re- the MacDermott Commission the Keys form from that day, but I am sure mem- in 1943 prepared a petition to the Home bers will ibe well acquainted with the Secretary asking for an Executive Com- continual agitating for more and more mittee of two members of the Legisla- of the control of government to be in the tive Council and five members of the

Constitution Amendment (No. 2) 'Bill, Second and Third Readings—Approved. HOUSE OF KEYS, APRIL 25, 1967 1257

Keys. As I say, there is nothing new in Order No. 179 'of the Standing Orders of my ideas in this Bill. They have been Tynwa'd, and to use his discretion on the go for many many years and under section 8 of the boards of Tyn- successive Houses have pressed for wald Act, 1952, in order to declare a such a set-up. After the general election vacancy on any board or committee of in 1962 the Executive Council was Tynwald when a member of such board actually appointed in this ratio. The or committee who was a member of the Speaker, Mr Quayle, Mr H. H. Radc:iffe, House of Keys is elected or appointed Mr McFee, and the chairman of Finance to the Legislative Council." This resolu- Mr Stephens, representing the Keys; Sir tion was approved by the House with- Ralph Stevenson and Mr J. H. Nicholls out a division and was communicated to of the Legislative Council, being His Excellency and a reply was received nominated by the Governor. It is from the Government Secretary as interesting to note that all the Keys follows—"1 have to acknowledge receipt members were in the majority group in of your letter of the 11th February, and the previous Keys — known as the to inform you that the terms of the "rebels"—and all of them had signed the resolution of the House of Keys passed resolution passed by the House of Keys on the 11th February, 1964, have been on July 30th, 1958, which included the brought to the notice of His Excellency proposal to set up a cabinet of +five by the Lieutenant-Governor. His Excel- the Keys. This ratio was upset by Mr lency wishes it to be known by the Keys MoFee's elevation to the Legislative that on recent occasions when a member Council on October 30th, 1962, and in of the Keys has been elected to the October 1963 with the elevation of Mr Legislative Council, His Excellency has Hugh Radcliffe, the balance of power carefully considered whether he would went out of the hands of the Keys, and exercise his discretion to declare that the Legislative Council now had .a 4-3 his membership of a board should be majority on the Executive Council. I vacated. In each case His Excellency raised the matter at that time and then decided that in the tight of the circum- moved at a later date that a committee stances obtaining it was not advisable be set up to- look into the matter. Mr to require the member concerned to Kelly, as vice-chairman of the Consul- vacate his office an a board of Tynwald tative and Finance Committee, made a particularly as, in accepting appoint- promise that if I would withdraw my ment to the Council, the member would motion,.that his committee would take reasonably expect to retain the mem- the matter up so as to find some way bership of boards on which he was then out of the situation. On the 11th serving. His Excellency has caused February, 1964, the hon. member for research to be made and has ascertained Ramsey, Mr Kelly, reported to the that on no occasion since the passing of House the deliberations of the 'Consulta- the Boards of Tynwald Acts, 1952, when tive and Finance Committee on this a member of the House of Keys has matter. He said inter alia the position become a member of the Legislative is unfortunate at present, it is not laid Council has the Governor exercised his down in the constitution at present that discretion requiring such member to the House of Keys will have so many vacate his office on a board. His Excel- members on Executive Council. If the lency wilt bear in mind the views of the House is to have any standing it must Keys on any future occasion when the have a majority on Executive Council. relevant statutory provision applies, but He then moved the fallowing resolution I am to state that a request to His —"That the House respectfully request Excellency to exercise his discretion in His Excellency the Lieutenant-Governor such a way as virtually to remove such in future to put in operation Standing discretions is in effect a contradiction

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of terms. If the Keys wish that any which is not quite the same thing. So member of the House when elected to therefore you might well have—I am not the Legislative Council should there- suggesting we have it now—you might upon relinquish his membership of any well have the case that there was a per- board of Tynwald of which he is then a son who is chairman of a board and be- member, necessitating election to the cause he was chairman of an important vacancy so created, His Excellency board was a member of Executive Coun- suggests that the proper course would cil in spite of the fact that it might be be for amending legis:ation to be intro- contrary to the wishes of the majority of duced to this effect." Now as the set-up the Keys. In other words the minority of the Executive Council very much of the Keys and a majority of the depends on the set-up of the boards and Council have nut him there. I favour who are the chairmen of boards, this is this Bill too. sir, because it removes why it is necessary to have legislation from the Lieutenant-Governor the to carry out the wishes of the last power to appoint two members to the Governor, the suggestion of the last Executive Council, and I think it is Governor, but more important to make perfectly right and proper that the it quite clear that at all times the House branches of this Legislature should of Keys will have five members on elect people to the Executive Council. I Executive Council out of the seven laid hope the :House will accept this Bill, sir, down by statute. I don't think I need and I hope the House will accept it go over any of the further details on. unanimously if possible because it is a this, everybody knows the position. so great step forward I think in our general well by . now, and I formally move the constitutional reform, with the ultimate second reading of the Isle of Man objective of making the House of Keys Constitution Amendment (No. 2) Bill, the Government of the Isle of Man. 1967. Mr Devereau: Mr Acting-Speaker, I Mr Moore: I beg to second. have been taken by surprise that this Mr Irving: I would like to support Bill has taken precedence today over this Bill because I think it is taking us the other items on the agenda. I didn't further along the road towards our aim, think we would' get this far today. I am which is, sir, to make the House of Keys not altogether with my hon. colleague the "powerhouse" of Manx politics, and for West Douglas in this Bill, and I may this is going a it further than was done reserve to myself the right to move in previous constitutional reform of any amendments when we get to the clauses degree. .1 am glad that we are defining stage. The hon. member for East the composition of Executive Council. Douglas has said that it is a good thing We have assumed that it will be five that the Governor shall not have power from the Keys and two from the Legis- to nominate anyone to the Executive lative Council—this is not laid down by Council. To my mind this is not statute, and .I think it is time it was. I altogether a good thing. The Governor support it also mainly of course because has, as we will all agree, tremendous it gives greater powers to the House of responsibilities in his part in the Keys. It means that the Keys now can Government of this Island, and I don't elect five members of Executive Council. think it is entirely fair to us to expect Now this has not been so in the past. We the Governor to take a!I these responsi- have tended in the past to elect chair- bilities without giving him some little men of principal boards. It could well be power. After all we are discussing the that the chairmen of principal boards constitution of the Governor's Executive are persons who were there, not by the Council. A Council that is set up by the wish of the majority of the' eys, but by Legislature to guide the Governor, and the wish of the majority in Tynwald, surely to my mind, it would be fair that

Constitution Amendment (No. 2) Bill, Second and Third Readings—Approved, HOUSE OF KEYS, APRIL 25, 1967 1259 he should have the opportunity to and I often see him, and make no doubt nominate someone of his own choosing that he does ask for my opinion on on. that Council. We may say that he occasions. Whether he accepts it or not should nominate someone from the is another matter, but that is the one House of Keys and not from the Legis- point that I want to make after support- lative Council, but I think that he ing the proposer and seconder. I do should have the right and the oppor- hope that the hon.. member will come tunity of nominating some small portion with us and appreciate that we are of the members of Executive Council. electing a body to advise and consult His Excellency, and that I do not see Mr Canister: I don't think anybody that it is right and proper that His can associate me with this Bill in any Excellency should nominate anybody to way, but there is one point on which I that particular body, if this is to be at would like to join issue with the hon. all a democratic Council. member for West Douglas. Mr Devereau — the nomination, by the Governor of Sir Henry Sugden: Mr Acting-Speaker, members of the Executive Council. One I am a little concerned about one part would expect, and I would expect, that anyway of this Bill. As far as I am the Executive Council would be the aware the five-two relationship is a very nomination of Tynwald. the Legislative reasonable one, and it deserves to go on. Council and the Keys, with a majority But what worries me about this is, as of five in the Keys, and that they wooled said before, we appear really to be try- be representing the views of the Legis- ing to protect ourselves against our- lature. 'Whatever the Executive Council selves. Surely we are a big enough body decide, the Governor is not bound to not to need that safeguard. The hon. accept. The powers of the Executive mover mentions the appointment of Mr Council are contained in three lines in Hugh Radcliffe to the Legislative Coun- the Act which read — "To advise cil. We appointed .MI1% We needn't have and consult with His Excellency the done. Why do we want to, shall 1 say Lieutenant-Governor." and if anything protect ourselves affainst our own arises from that the Governor will decisions, unless possibly there is some- initiate the legislation necessary. That thing else behind this, and I am not is my view of the Executive Council and suggesting for one minute that there is not that of a cabinet such as obtains in in fact in the mind of the hon. mover of the United Kingdom. His Excellency is this Bill, but we have a phrase in the at liberty to consult anybody he likes Army about kicking a man upstairs—do when he makes his decisions, but we perhaps—or this might be the effect, would submit that — I hope that Mr I am not saying this is really what we Devereau will appreciate the fact that are trying to achieve. But possibly we the Executive Council is a body elected may wish to remove somebody from the by both Houses to advise and consult various board appointments or the like, His Excellency, and not elected by the and so if the opportunity occurs we Governor to advise him. He would appoint him to the Legislative Council, thereby be electing somebody whom' he and under this then. he is forced, expected would agree with him. So let's whether he wishes or not. to give up dispose of this nomination, I hope that such board appointments as he may the hon. member will appreciate this hold. 1 am not in any way attributing and give His Excellency complete this to the hon. mover, but that to my liberty to consult anybody he likes, mind is what may well be the effect, either in the Legislature or outside. He certainly of clause 6, if we pass it. could even consult me — (laughter) - Mr sCorkish: Mr .Acting-Speaker, I am don't make any mistake, I happen to going to support the Bill and I hope the know His Excellency exceedingly well, day will shortly be coming when the

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Governor will not be able to nominate with the hon. mover, and in fact I think anybody to get up on the Legislative my name was mentioned in his intro- Council, and I hope that will be the next ductory speech, 1 was one of the move. "rebels" and I have not varied very much from that in that .1 consider the Mr Moore: 'Mr Acting-Speaker, I am Keys are the governing body of this supporting this 11 but I can't quite Island. Having said that, sir, may I go grasp Sir Henry's argument. The fact on to say, as one who has been in this that Mr Hugh Radcliffe was nominated. Council. this Executive Council, for the for the Upper House by the House of last six years, that gentlemen keep an Keys here doesn't alter the position, eye on practical politics. There is one because if you take the case of Mr statement in the preamble of this Bill NivisonMr Nivison is very loyal to the which worries me somewhat, and that is Upper House, whatever his views were five members of theHouse of Keys. Now in the Lower House, he certainiy I want to dwell for a moment on the supports the Upper House now. So the numerous sneeches that the hon. position with regard to voting is much member for North Douglas has made on different there. 'So therefore I am going this issue, and the record rarely to support this Bill because I feel that changes. The record is that this body His Excellency shouldn't have this are advisers to His Excellency-- power at all of making appointments. Surely this is an internal affair with our Mr Canister: That is a fact, not a own government here. His Excellency, record. with all due respect, is appointed here Mr• Quayle: I am not arguing, sir, I by the Imperial Government, and there- am simply repeating what you said. fore in my opinion he is not the person• Mr Canister: There is no need to say to be appointing any members of the it is a record. It is a fact. Executive Council etc. This is the governing body and I am going to Mr Quayle: It has been a gramophone support this Bill and hope this Bill will record, that is the point I am making. only be the forerunner of more changes Mr Cal:ister: I don't know why you in the foreseeable future with regard to should say that, I merely am repeating certain democracy—the House of Keys a fact. being the 'Government of the Island, and Mr Quayle: I have just repeated the even the time might come when the same fact as the hon. member has upper body might be abolished also. been making, for somewhat different Mr Quayle:. Mr. Acting-Speaker, during reasons— the turmoil — and I use that word Mr Canister: Well why the sneer? advisedly — that we have had since Mr Quayle: Mr Acting-Speaker. was around the beginning of last year, I I sneering? have severa' times said, in different debates, there was a proper way to do The Acting-Speaker: You were only things. There were questions of votes of speaking, please continue. censure, there was the question of a Mr Quayle: As say, sir, the quick flash vote, if I might put it that Executive Council are an advisory body. way, and I said repeatedly the way for Now I don't particularly push myself the House of Keys to achieve anything forward in this context because I have was by legislation. It would appear we found, and 1 am sure any member who now have one section of this legislation has been a member of Executive before us this afternoon, and I, sir, am Council has found, exactly the same prepared to support it. I support it for thing of divided loyalties, which is not this reason. In my opinion, in common at tinnes an easy position to hold when

Constitution Amendment (No. 2), Bill, Second and Third Readings—Approved. HOUSE OF KEYS, APRIL 26, 1967 1261 one's own view and particularly one's debate. I have a point to make and as board's view. differs greatly from an the senior member of the House. with executive view, and this I am sure any- a background of experience behind me, body who has been there will agree there is just one point I would like to entirely with this sentiment. Neverthe- make if the House would give me the less, whilst I support five members opportunity in my own place, if Mr should come from the Keys, and whilst Quayle would take the chair just for I think the other branch who are just this. I would like to make the point. I as an important part of government, but have rooked forward to this day and I not the democratic part of government, didn't expect to be in the chair, so I should. have their. say in their nominees, don't want to be frustrated from what I do think those sent to Executive I want to say to the House. Could I Council—and1 don't know how to draft have your permission? it into this legislation at this moment— should still be chairmen of important It was agreed. departments. I don't necessarily specify which departments. but what I fear is The Acting-Speaker (IMr A. S. Kelly) a move, and this is perfectly democratic, took his seat in the chamber and Mr a move of a majority to put in Rye "yes" W. E. Quayle took the chair. men for that particular point of view. Mr Kelly: Mr Acting;Speaker, I want I am generalising here, gentlemen, I am to impress upon the House the impor- not looking in any particular direction. tance of what we are about to do today. I do think that those who are repre- To me this is not only constitutional sented around His Excellency which, let reform, it is constitutional progress. We us face it, is purely a phrase, because have accepted the principle over the this really is the start of policy-making. years by the election of the Selection though Tyn.wald and the branches com- Committee, which is the most important plete it, I do think the gentlemen who committee that Tyn.wald has in our are appointed should have standing in constitu Lion, of giving the House of. Keys a department which is of importance to the right to elect six members to repre- this Island.. Now what I mean is this, sent the House on the Selection Com- that time after time the whole issue of mittee. The Constitution Act a:so pro- local government comes up in Executive vides that the Legislative Council, Council, who better therefore than the which is the other branch, and so long chairman of the Local Government as we have two branches of the Legisla- Board? And time after time, as is written into the Bill, finance comes up, ture, we must abide by its consequences, we give them the right to elect three and who better than the chairman of from their own members. Now if the the Finance -Board? I could go on principle is correct and right, which 1 enumerating, I have no need to waste think it is, that the Keys has the right to the time of the House, they know nominate and select their own members. precisely what I am trying to get at. surely one of the most important bodies Can we so modify this Bill to make sure of the whole set-up in our constitution that the best advice — and. the best is the Executive Council. Now I don't advice is the experience of the House, want the House to be misled into one not a sudden change of heart or policy Council as against the other Council. —is available on this Cour ^ i? If I can All this Bill seeks to do is to create a be assured of that, Mr Acting-Speaker, position that the House of Keys shall I am wholeheartedly with this view. have five members of the House on the The Acting-Speaker: I would like the Executive 'Council. The next step, opportunity, gentlemen and Miss perhaps in two years it will come, will Thornton-Duesbery, to speak in this be that the House of Keys will, in its

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own right of course, say as it is trying and that is my view, and a view I hold to say today through this Bill, that the very strongly. d hope the House will Legislative Council shall have no support Mr Kneale's Bill. nominated members by His Excellency Mr 'Crowe: 'Mr Acting-Speaker, before the Lieutenant-Governor, whoever he Mr Kelly goes back into the chair, he may be. That will be another step in did state then that Tynwald had the constitutional progress. But today we final say—was that a correct statement? are only concerning ourselves with the principle of the five members of the The Acting-Speaker: I think he did Executive Council which advises the mean that the nominations in fact would Governor of the Isle of Man. Now why be made in Tynwald. I have got up to speak is simply this, that the House has thought this out over Mr Crowe: I am just a bit in the dark many years and• succeeded by the past according to this Bill because this Bill says — five members elected by the experiences of the House producing its House of Keys, therefore Tynwald will own membership of that Executive Council. it doesn't say that the Selection have no say whatsoever in the election Committee of course are always right, of these five members. because Tynwald has the last word - Mr Kelly: ii am sorry, Mr Crowe, but as it will with this. Tynwald makes the the point is this, when the Selection final selection. But the people who are Committee makes their selections for going to advise the Governor in future, Tynwald they will select the five — it if this Bill becomes law, which I hope may be five chairmen or five suitable it will, because can see already a persons, but I would hope it would be break in the clouds and it is not a chairmen surely of the most important question of the 10 or the 14, I hope you beards because of their past experience. will dispel any idea that this is a pre- Sir Henry Sugden: But that is not conceived idea that we are trying to what the Bill says. I support the point break LID the whole set-up in the Isle of raised by the hon, member for Michael. Man—we are not. It has nothing to do with the Speakership. it has got nothing The Acting-Speaker: Well I don't to do with the principle of the Speaker want to reflect on my own speech, being on Executive Council, and I hope gentlemen. but of course Bills can be the members will take no part, or have amended. any thoughts about it, they can dispel Mr MacLeod: Mr Acting-Speaker, I any doubts in their minds— am rather surprised at this Bill at all Mr MacLeod: Why talk about it then? because at the present time we are in the fortunate position of having six Mr Kelly: I am going to talk about it members of the House of Keys on the because it is most important and I Executive Council instead of five. If this should say so. You will have your turn. Bill goes through— I asked from the chair, and you will The Acting-Speaker: Would you have an opportunity when. "finish to get explain that please, Mr MacLeod? up and knock down what I have said. But I do appeal to the House to take Mx MacLeod: We have five members the broadest possible view with this, from the House of Keys and one Mr Acting-Speaker, 'because it is so nominated by the Governor, which important that the House gets on proper makes six I believe. lines for the future constitution of the The Acting-Speaker: No, there are Isle of Man, that the House of Keys who two members of the Legislative Council have been elected by the people of the on Executive Council. Sir Ralph Steven- Isle of Man should have the biggest say son and Mr John Bolton.

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Mr MacLeod: Oh, I beg your pardon. haven't got the proper time to pay But what I wanted to ask is why was attention to what they are supposed to there any mention made of the 10 or 14 do. 1 should think that the chairman if this has got nothing to do with that? probably of the Local Government It would have been far better if the hon. Board or Tourist Board--that descrip- member for Ramsey, Mr Kelly, had said tion major boards should. be chairmen nothing about that whatsoever. of those boards only, and no other Mr Moore: He cleared the air. boards whatsoever. It would be much more important, I believe, to the good Mr MacLeod: It would have been government of this Island than messing better if he had held his tongue. The about with things like this. 1 will air didn't need clearing. It was clear support the Bill. But I would certainly enough as far as I was concerned. One think that the most important thing for of the things that I was more concerned this House of Keys to consider is that about is not the members of this, but the important board. chairmen should you wilt notice that every member of be import board chairmen only and not the Legislative Council is a member of in any other position. a board, they are all members of 'boards every one of them including the most Mr Crowe: Just very shortly, Mr important board in the whole set-ull Acting-Speaker, I have Quite a lot of that is the Finance Board, the chairman sympathy with this Bill, But there is of the Finance Board is a member of just one thing that I see that could the Legislative Council. possibly be wrong. Now if for instance the -House of Keys was electing five Mr Corkish: It just. shows how fair members to Executive Council, I think, we are. no matter who those gentlemen were. it Mr MacLeod: One of the things that would be wrong if they didn't elect the we have said here time and time again chairmen of the different boards con- is that if it was possible we would never cerned, because 1 think it would be very allow the chairman of the Finance awkward for the chairman. Take for Board to P.o from the House of Keys. example the chairman of the Local Now the House of Keys put that man Government Board— there-- Mr MacLeod.: On a point of informa- Mr Corkish: After an objection tion: if may explain, when. I said that though. They submitted a name and it the .chairman of the board should be was objected to. chairman of the board only, I didn't mean he shouldn't be on Executive Mr MacLeod: Yes, it was the House Council. of Keys who put him as chairman of the board. I can't see how even although Mr Crowe: I think it would be very this thing goes through how are we awkward, Mr Acting Speaker, if for going to prevent those kind of things instance a member of the board would happening again. What I would be more be represented on Executive Council. He concerned about is the chairmen of would have much more information important boards holding many other than his chairman on that board. I think offices. .1 think the chairmen of impor- that could be a very very awkward tant boards should be chairmen of thing to the working of boards in the important boards only. The major Isle of Man as far as the everyday life board chairmen should be major board of that board was concerned. But as I chairmen insomuch that they are not say, I have svmnathy with the Keys and vice-chairmen or chairmen of commit- I am not quite sure yet about the tees and various other things. They answer as received from our Acting-

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Speaker, Mr Kelly, because I take it, in. future when a member of this House according to this Bill, that the House of was moved up that he should apply the Key.s elect their own representatives to Standing Orders of Tynwald whereby the EXecutive Council without any members moving from one branch to further reference to Tynwald. I think another are obliged—the thing is they that is laid down in the It is not as shall resign. The Governor immediately Mr Kelly said at all. But I would give threw at us the members' Election of my support, full support, to this Bill if Members Bill, 1952, where he is allowed it laid down the fact that it was chair- men of boards as elected .by the House a discretionary power and he said one of Keys. I think that is the only right conflicts with the other and there is no and proper way to do it. point in allowing me a discretion by statute if you are not going to allow me Mr Kneale: Mr Acting-Speaker, first to use that discretion by Standing of all I thank .Mr Irving for his support. Orders, and it was he who suggested the Now Mr Devereau was kind enough a best way to clear this up was by legisla- week or two ago to give me a copy of tion. So that was the point raised there. his amendments to study, and whereas There is nothing at all about kicking a I can't agree with them, there is man upstairs, I don't know where that nothing in them which stops him came in at all, but I would refer again supporting the second reading of this to what I said that the leader of the Bi.l. It is when we come down to the move for to get this five-man represen- detail of the clauses that he, like Mr tation from the Keys in the previous Quayle, has got certain reservations. House, and in the House before that— With regard to the question of the this is back in 1958 — was our hon. Governor's appointment I will not deal Speaker, Mr H. C. Kerruish, and if you with them now, I will deal with them have read the MacDermott Commission when we come to the clauses where they Report on this when. he put it very can be dealt with specifically. Mr forcibly to them. I will remind you of Callister, again I thank him for his the words he said—"We are not asking, support. Now Sir Henry Sugden, he we are demanding." He was demanding wanted to know whether we are protect- the le,iti_nate rights of the elected ing ourselves against ourselves — I representatives to be the government of would say no. We are demanding our this Island and take as full a part as rightful dues to be the representatives possible. Now we have this situation of the people and to represent them as arising because there is nothing laid fully as we can. He raised the question down and because of the conflict of the appointment to the Legislative between the statutes and the Standing Council of Mr Hugh Radcliffe and Orders we have a situation where, at wanted to know if there was anything the beginning of a session, we have five else behind this. Now at the time—this members of the Keys appointed to is before all this row grew up in Executive Council and two trom the December — immediately' on Mr Rad- Legislative Council, By the movement of cliffe's appointment I raised this matter two people upstairs, all of a sudden we in the House, and the matter was then find we have got three members of the referred to the Consultative and Finance Keys and four members of the Legisla- Committee and they promised to look tive Council on Executive Council. I into this, and they came forward with a suggest that this certainly needs recti- resolution, which I read out, which was fying and something put in the statute sent to the Governor, and it was carried to at all times safeguard this position. unanimously in this House, asking him The five members of the House of Keys

Constitution Amendment (No. 2) Bill, Second and Third Readings—Approved. HOUSE OF KEYS, APRIL 25, 1967 1265 elected by the House of Keys — this in the hands of the Keys. If they want seems to have raised one or two to have the proper people as board queries. When I came to draft this Bill chairmen, members of this House on the I spent long hours with the Attorney- board chairmanship, then they must Genera; going through this matter and stick together on this, and it is up to them to appoint them. If they don't stiok all sorts of little side issues kept crop- together on this, well you are in the lap ping up. We could see all sorts of things of the gods and then you have got to that we could put in to be absolutely come and face up to the position after- sure, but that would have gone on and wards when you come down to elect on and on, and we would have had a your five members for Executive Coun- Bill inches thick. I think an awful lot of cil, you have riot to pick from what this must be left to the good sense of this you've got after the position of board House, and realising that this House has eha:rmen have already been decided in the power in their own hands who they Tynwald. Now this is the point that I elect to this Executive Council. They are think Mr Kelly was trying to make electing five members of their own when he said that the final say on that people and the suggestion is made out, is in the hands of Tynwald, not of the and I don't disagree with this, that they Keys. I thank Mr Kelly for his support. should be the chairmen of the major Mr MacLeod, he was a bit astray when boards, then it is up to this House when he thought —and it was only a mistake we sit in Tynwald to make sure that —when he thought we already had six the representatives on these boards are members on the Executive Council, not members of this House, that the main five. The Governor makes two appoint- boards chairmen come from this House. ments, one from the Keys and one from When Mr Kelly made reference to the Legislative Council, but the set-up Tynwald has the last say—well so they was already 4-i at that time. I would have, because before we get round to point out that the two members of the appointing members of the Executive Legislative Council that are on the Council the Selection Committee have Executive Council are the two Gover- already met and they have picked: out nor's appontments to the Legislative the board chairmen and the members Council., who virtually represent nobody. of the boards and that is voted on. and Mr Crowe says he finds a lot in this Bill it is oniy after that that the members to surtoort and I think that most of the Executive 'Council are chosen. It members of this House will feel the is up. to the House, the members of this same way. All we are demanding, as House entirely, and we know how things our rightful due as rearesenting the can go astray n Tynwald on the voting. peopie. is the right to have a say on I don't need to remind you—I wasn't Executive Council and a strong say, and here—but I don't need to remind' you of that that say should be safeguarded to the days of 1958 when they marched up the tune of 5-2 at all times. I move the and down the stairs not once, but all second reading. day long. They marched up and dawn and. had every vote recorded in this The Acting-Speaker: Hon. members. chamber, and every time the vote was the euestion before the House is that in the region—if my tn.emory is correct the Isle of Man Constitution Amend- —of 15-9, 15-10, in favour of a member ment ('No. 2) Bill, 1967, be now read a that the Key5,wanted, but when they second time. Ali those in favour say went upstairs and voted together every aye, those against no. time the Keys' nomination was knocked down, and that is why I say at is entirely It was agreed.

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Mr Kelly resumed the chair and Mr Mr Callister: They have already con- Quayle returned to his seat in the sidered it. chamber. The Acting-Speaker: They have already The Acting-Speaker: Will you proceed considered that you see. with the clauses. Mr Kneale? Mr MacLeod: 1 second' it and' I think Sir Henry Sugden: Mr Acting- it would be quite a good thing if they Speaker, we have had rather confusing reconsidered this Bill in view of the interpretations of this, the hon. member fact of all this confusion. for Michael raised the question of Mr Kneale: Mr Acting-Speaker, there whether the Keys elected their five is no confusion in my mind. The members or whether it is up to Tynwald. Constitutional. 'Committee in the last I was not very convinced with the hon. House had this Bill before them, a mover's reply. Surely this is an impor- similar Bill, which I introduced in March tant thing 1966. It has been considered by the The Acting-Speaker: Could I draw Constitutional Committee in the last your attention, Sir Henry, to the fact House, and considered by the Constitu- that you cou.d raise this matter on the tional Committee in this House, to save clause when you come to it. this very situation arising of it being sent back to them. As far as I am Sir Henry Sudden: I thought this was concerned I know. which way I am going. the time. I have made it quite clear in this Bill, in fact I have dotted the i's and crossed The Acting-Speaker: No, this is the the t's, I have out so much. in the Bill. second reading and we have already I oppose any reference to a committee. disposed of it. The Acting-Speaker: It has been pro- Sir Henry Sugden: I was suggesting posed and seconded that the Bill go to a committee—that is the word you used, that it be referred to a committee. Sir, Henry, wasn't it? The Bill itself, not The Acting-Speaker: Oh, I beg your the clause. pardon, I am sorry. ISir Henry Sugden: Yes. Sir Henry Sugden: In view of the The Acting-ASpeaker: All those in confusion certainly which has arisen, favour of it going to a committee say certainly in my mind, the proper course aye, against no. The noes have it. Will for this is to put it to the committee you proceed, Mr Kneale? that we have for these things of this House. Mr Kneale: Mr Acting-Speaker, clause 1—amendment of section 14 of the Isle The Acting-Speaker: You say the of Man Constitution Act, 1961. 1 should proper thing—are you moving that? say I have made the thing very clear here so I will read it out as it is in the Sir Henry Sugden: Yes, I am moving Bill—"Section 14 of the Isle of Man it. That it should go to the — is it the Constitutor Act, 1961 (hereinafter called Legislative Committee of the Keys? • 'the principal Act') (which section con- stitutes an Executive Council) shall The Acting-Speaker: The Constitu- have effect as if for paragraphs (a), (b) tional Corrunittee. and (c) thereof there were substituted the following paragraphs: `(a) two Sir Henry Sugden: The Constitutional members of the Council, and (b) five Committee, yes. members of the Keys to be elected,

Constitution Amendment (No. 2) Bill, Second and Third Readings—Approved. HOUSE OF KEYS. APRIL 25, 1967 1267 subject to the provisions of the follow- Mr Quayle: Mr Acting-Speaker, may ing sub-section of this section by the I. move an amendment, sir, at line 19 Council and the Keys respectively,' and foilowin2; the words "(b) five members the following sub-section were added at of the Keys" interject who shall be the end of the section: '(2) The chair- chairmen of principal boards." I am man of the Finance Board. shall ipso sorry, sir, may I just add to that? I have facto be a member of the Executive just. been questioned on who are Council and accordingly (a) if the principal boards. I have been trying to chairman of the Finance Board be a member of the Council the Council shall work out what is the right formula here, sir, I don't think we should tie our elect one member only and. (b) if the chairman of the Fnance Board be a hands to nominating the boards con- member of the Keys the Keys shall elect cerned. Equally I don't think the four members only'." This is to safe- position, of shall we say, chairman of guard the position in case we have, as Assessment carries much weight, so I we have at the moment, the chairman have used the term "principal boards" of the Finance Board a member of the fairly loosely, so that our hands shall Legislative Council. Recognising the not be entirely tied, but obviously every necessity of having the chairman of the member of this House has a pretty Finance Board on Executive Council at shrewd idea what in fact is a principal al: times, I put these provisions in this board, and what is an unimportant clause, and I move clause 1 stand part board. I see no reason to alter the of the Bill. phraseology. Mr Anderson: I beg to second. The Acting-Speaker: I couldn't suggest from the chair, Mr Quayle, instead, of a Mr MacLeod: I would like to ask a principal board, which is rather elastic question, Mr Acting-Speaker, during —"of a board of Tynwald." There are the course of the debate when the only 1] boards— second reading was being proposed, in the reply the mover of the Bill gave Mr Quay,:e: But Mr Acting-Speaker, he said that the two members of the that would also tie our hands because Legislative Council didn't represent there could well become an occasion anybody. I would like to know exactly when a board which was not a board of what he meant by this. Tynwald could be very important. Mr Corkish: They weren't elected by the electors. They were nominees of the Mr Canister: Mr Acting-Speaker. I Governor. am opposing this amendment and have held this attitude for a very long time. Mr MacLeod: It doesn't make any It is not necessarily that a good chair- difference. man of a Board would be a good mem- ber of the Executive Council, I think Mr Corkish: It makes a lot of everybody might acknowledge that. It dlfference. is not ipso facto the fact that a good Mr MacLeod: They must represent chairman is a good member of the somebody. Executive Council. It may be that a member of the Executive Council would Mr Darkish: Who? not make a good chairman, and I feel Mr MacLeod: That is what I am going that we would be making a mistake to ask. Who do they represent? here in tying down the Bill to the elec- tion of anybody, chairman of a board, The Acting-Speaker: That's a fair or otherwise. It sometimes happens that question. a member of the Legislature is an

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exceedingly practical and competent Mr Irving: In that case, sir, I would man, but as an overall politician, and be glad to second the amendment of the from policy-making and expressing hon. member for Middle, Mr Quayle - himself, he may be at a disadvantage. I members who are chairmen of boards certainly feel that we would be making of Tynwald. I think we have got to a grave error in tying ourselves to the remember too that certain persons be- fact, even an ambiguous suggestion like this principal Boards, should be intro- come chairmen of boards of Tynwald, as duced into the Bill. I said earlier, not on a majority view of the Keys, but on a minority of the Keys, Mr MacLeod: I would be frightened and. the Legislative Council perhaps of this for the very fact that you might altogether. Now I am not thinking of, find all the principal Boards' chair- any particular case where I disapprove, men in the Legislative Council. There but it can happen, and I don't think we are many chairmen in the Legislative want this sort of thing to happen, I Council now in very high positions, think when we elect board chairmen of principal boards in future, I think we Mr Irving: Mr Acting-Speaker, I notice have got to have regard to the fact that that this clause is an amendment to the we are going to look for five board Isle of Man Constitution Act, 1961, and chairmen for Executive :Council. We 1, sir, had the honour in those days of have got to think of them not only as handling the Constitution Act. I am very chairmen of boards, but as members of pleased today to amend that Act, and I Executive Council. I have pleasure in hope this is going to be the first of many supporting the amendment, providing it amendments to the Act. Now, sir, I do is merely members who are chairmen not like the amendment put forward by of boards of Tynwald. the hon. member for Middle, Mr Quayle. I believe the position at the moment is The Acting-Speaker: That was the — members of the Keys who are word I used from the chair, Mr Quayle chairmen of boards of Tynwald — I — who shall be a chairman of a Board think that is the requirement. If the of Tynwald. The present Act on hon. member's amendment was that - the Executive Council, section 14 - members of the Keys who are chairmen "An Executive Council is hereby consti- of boards of Tynwald would gladly tuted and shall constist of the following agree to it. But if we are going to put persons, that is to say (a) the chairman the word "principal" in — what is of the Finance Board, (b) the chairman ".principal' going to mean? The hon. of four of the boards of Tynwald to be member himself has suggested that the elected by Tynwald." It says board of importance of the boards may vary Tynwald — who shall be a chairman of according to things happening at the a board of Tynwald. time. I am sorry, sir, hut I cannot support this amendment, if it includes Mr Devereau: It has been stated, Mr the word "principal," I must say too, Acting-Speaker, that the two ex-officio that it is possible— members of the Legislative Council are on the Executive Council and this is Mr Quayle: May I say, Mr Acting- obviously quite. wrong. I think we Speaker, that I am quite prepared to should have something in our Act to go back to the phraseology of boards govern that. I stated before my opinion, of Tynwald. I feel that it has not much of a following Mr Irving: Boards of Tynwald, yes. in this House, that the Governor should have the right to nominate on to the Mr Quayle: I am establishing really Executive Council, but I still feel that an experience rather than a position. this is so, and I am going to test the

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feeling of the House by proposing the minority and it is a secret vote; nobody following amendment. The Executive knows 'how the voting is going, so Council constituted by the Act of 1961 therefore 1 feel that we are leaving our- shall consist of the following persons - selves wide open here, i would like to that is to say (a) the chairman. of the stick to the original resolution that five Finance Board — it is a great pity that members of the Keys. Surely we are this House changed its mind and the going to pick the best people here re- chairman of the Finance Board is now gardless of them being members of a member of the other House. (b) . a Boards or even chairman of the Assess- member of the Legislative Council to ment Board, although it is a Board be elected by the Legislative Council; perhaps not considered very highly and (c) three members of the House of Keys important 'by members of Tynwald or to be elected by the House of Keys - the Keys. He could be a very brilliant and I am quite prepared to accept that man and an acquisition to the House, so they should be chairmen of boards; (d) therefore, I say, let's stick to the original one member of the Legislative Council resolution and let's be democratic in our and one member of the House of Keys, views and consistent, if you like, I to be appointed by the Governor. (ii) oppose both amendments. The Speaker of the House of Keys and The Acting-Speaker: There is only one the ex-officio members of the Legisla- amendment before the House. There is tive Council shall not be eligible for no seconder yet for the other one- election or appointment as members of the Executive Council, provided how- Mr Moore: Oh, there is no seconder— ever, that notwithstanding the foregoing well I am, against the first amendment. provisions of this sub-section the House Mr Simcocks: Mr Acting-Speaker, I of Keys may by resolution suspend, am not particularly happy with either with respect to the eligibility of the of the amendments which have been put Speaker of the House of Keys, the forward—either by the hon. member for operation of those provisions during Middle, or the later amendment 'which such period as may be specified in such the hon. member for East Douglas resolution." has succeeded in producing. I would ask the House to remember that one The Acting-Speaker: Any other mem- of the reasons that the hon. member ber wish to speak? for Middle was not prepared to enumerate what the principal Boards Mr 'Moore: Mr Acting-Speaker, I am were in his first amendment was that going to oppose both amendments be- he didn't wish to tie the House, yet, sir, cause here we are trying to get some- the effect of both these amnedments is thing constitutional and democratic. to do just that. I would have thought Mr MadL'eod: Was it seconded? If it that we would have done well to have wasn't he can't speak on it. considered that the House of Keys has the job—which I hope will have the job The Acting-Speaker: He is speaking of electing five members of the Execu- on the clause. tive 'Council, will be a responsible House Mr Moore: And at the same time we having regard to the fact that the people are going to deny any meinber of this to be elected must have sufficient know- House, apart from Board chairmen, of ledge of the various departments of being members of the Executive Council. Government to be able to offer valid I think this is the very negation of advice to His Excellency, because you democracy. The fact that chairmen of see, sir, the hon. member for North Boards can be elected, first by the Selec- Douglas, and I take diametrically tion 'Committee and then appointed by opposed views as regards the actual Tynwald. It can be a very small activity of the Executive Council. The

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1961 Act, in fact says precisely what the to the Executive Council, I look forward hon_ member says—the Executive Coun- to another Bill withdrawing from the cil is there to advise the Governor, that Governor the right to nominate persons is so, nevertheless, sir, as each Month to the Legislative Council. It seems to goes by the position gradually consoli- me to be much more logical that we dates into a state of affairs where the should seek to evolve our constitution Executive Council becomes more and in this way rather than many of the more of a Cabinet and the Governor other ways I have heard, and I would becomes more and more of a constitu- hope that the House, whilst paying due tional head of state. Therefore to my regard to the views of the hon. member mind it is important that the people to for West Douglas, Mr Devereau, I hope be elected on to the Executive Council the House would not pass his amend- should be the' eads of departments, but, ment, rather would it look as being an by the same token, I think it is impor- amendment which tends to move back- tant that the advice of the hon. member wards rather than forwards. I would for Middle should be taken, namely, hope, sir, that this particular clause that we should not tie our hands in the might be accepted, as it is written re- future by prescribing any particular jecting the amendments, knowing that qualifications for the five members of the House in future will surely look for the House, whom the House will have its best members as members of the the right to elect. With regard to the Exco and that those members will in- amendment of the hon• member for West evitably hold responsible chairmanships. Douglas, Mr Devereau, sir, one of the things which attracts me more than Mr Crowe: Mr Acting-Speaker, there anything else is the fact— was a statement made a while ago that a good chairman might possibly not The Acting-Speaker: It is not seconded always would be a 'good member of Exco yet, Mr Simcocks. —that is quite a fact, but is it not also true that if a chairman had one of he Mr Simcocks: That it is the com- members of his Board a member of Exco mencement of what I would regard as a it is very possible—and I am sure it very necessary operation, namely the would naturally follow — that he removal from the Governor of rights of wouldn't be such a good chairman of nomination. We must remember, sir, that Board, and this is through one that the Governor of the Isle of Man reason only, that he wouldn't have the comes here as a servant of the British up-to-date knowledge of what was even Government; he is nominated by White- happening to his Board, because Exco hall, he does the job when he gets here, sometimes is involved in different nego- no doubt in a highly conscientious way, tiations of Board policy and Board work nevertheless, sir, he is not a man of our and if the chairman had no knowledge choice; he is a man chosen by the British of that, he would be a worse chairman Government. I would have thought. sir, of the Board because of the fact that a that the view of this House would have member of his own Board had more been, that it is important that the rights know'edze han 'he had — therefore he of nomination of the Governor of the couldn't rive a lead to his Board. There- Isle of Man should be gradually re- fore I think the amendment that Mr moved and substituted for the more Quayle has nut forward, that the chair- democratic proposals contained in this man of Boards— Bill and then, sir, I add, what has also been said by other members. Once this Mr MacLeod: Mr Acting-Speaker. may Bill has been passed, removing from the draw your attention to Standing Order Governor the right to nominate persons 43.

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The Acting-Speaker: Standing Order and Keys respectively. Now the gener- 42 — any motion not seconded may not ally accepted principle would be to have be further debated and shall be forth- one of the chairmen, nobody can be with dropped. elected 'by this House except by the Mr MacLeod: The amendment hasn't majority. There is no question here of been seconded. any clique forming to put anybody up who is not a chairman. It just depends The Acting - Speaker: Mr Devereau's on what the feeling of the House is at hasn't been seconded. Mr Quayle's has- the time who they put forward, But you Of course it has and he is entitled to could have a situation arising after the debate it. Selection Committee have met and you Mr MacLeod: 1 beg your pardon. have voted in the chairman in Tynwald The Acting-Speaker: I am sorry. Mr —you could have the chairman of the Crowe, will you continue. Finance Board, the Local Government Board, the Tourist Board and the Board Mr Crowe: There is nothing more I of Agriculture, all members of the wish to say, but I don't know what Mr Legislative Council. This could happen MacLeod has found to talk about. and that is why at a later date we would The Acting-Speaker: He was trying need to start thinking about what goes to scop you, that is all. on upstairs. At the moment I think we want our eye on the activities of this Mr Crowe: Well I was speaking on the House. We have the power in this House amendment of Mr Quayle, and I am to elect five members who we consider sure it is in order. to be the best five members from among Mr .Crellin: Mr (Acting Speaker, in our 24 to form this Executive Council answer to the hon. member from with two members elected by the Legis- Michael that I should have thought his lative Council. I say quite cleanly, do criticism would really be in effect, when not put anything restrictive in because it occurred, a severe criticism of the the minute you put "they shall be standard of the working of E"xco, not of chairmen," you might find you have got this Bill. Because I should think that to pick minor chairmen, because the Executive Council would have been situation could arise that only minor virtually betraying our interests and the chairmen we have in this House. interests of the Island as .a whole, if they disoussed matters which were of Mr Callir.ter: You might put me up great importance to a Board, without and that would be a tragedy. inviting the chairman of the Board to sit in in any case. .I therefore suggest that Mr Kneaie: A tragedy for you, sir, the clause should stay as it is. but not for the Executive Council—you wouldn't be able to knock them. if would Mr Kneale: I am going to reject Mr Flay to the House, stick to what is Quayle's amendment, a have it here. I written here and support this. It is in have a very good reason for this because your own hands afterwards—once this I considered this very, very much when has become Legislation you can pick I was drafting this Bill and once you your own five members, I hope that start putting too much in and tying it when you do go into Tynwald and the down you are landing yourself in all Selection Committee report comes for- sorts of difficulties- That was why I word in the future that the House will deliberately left it this way—five mem- take note of who the chairmen are that bers of the Keys to be elected, subject are nut forward for the various boards to the provisions of the following sub- and. make sure that they do not support section of this section, by the Council anybody from the Legislative Council ‘TVI*41-Wk`47.70-0147( Constitution Amendment (No. 2) Bill, Second and Third Readings—Approved. 1272 HOUSE OF KEYS, APRIL 25. 1967

in opposition to them that is going to A division was called for and voting destroy the balance when you come to resulted as follows:— Executive Council, after the Selection Committee have done their job. I say it For: Miss Thornton-Duesbery. Messrs is entirely in your own hands. Mr MacLeod, Crowe, Kerruish, Devereau — his amendment was not Quayle, Irving and Sir Henry seconded so it is not before us, so I will Sugden-6. not comment on it. but I would say Against: Messrs Anderson, Faragher, here, in reference to the appointment Simcocks. Crellin, Canister, Moore, of the Governor's nominees for the Corkish, Burke, Kneale, Devereau Executive Council, this is most undemo- and Kelly-11. cratic. It is not recognised in any other parliament. You do not have the Queen The Acting-Speaker: The amendment nominating who is going to be on the is lost, eight in favour 11 against. I will Cabinet in Enziand. and I say that we now put clause 1 as it is printed. All should follow the same lines, that we, those in favour say aye, against no. as elected representatives, plus the Legislative Council who are the second It was agreed. branch of our legislature, should be able Mr Kneale: Clause 2 is the substitu- to appoint our own people that we want tion of a new section for section 16 in to advise the Governor. I would remind the principal Act. Again it is laid down members where this all started: holy an here pretty clearly so I will repeat as Executive Counci: came to be put into it is here "For section 16 of the being; it was to keep the Governor principal Act which relates to the in touch with the Legislature and election of certain members of the especially the elected representatives of Executive Council the following section the House of Keys, as the Governors shall be substituted — 'Elections of were inclined to take no notice of what members of Executive Council. Not- they were saying and to o their own withstanding the amendment of the way in the past. This has altered a lot constitution of the Executive Council since the early days of 1903-odd, but effected• by section 1 of the Isle of Man we have still uot a long way to go yet Constitution Amendment (No. 2) Act, before we finally get a true democratic 1967, the persons who shall be members government in the Isle of Man. This is of the Executive Council at the com- another step on the way and I ask mencement of that Act shall remain in members to support the clause as office until their successors are elected printed. under sub-section (2) of this section The Acting-Speaker: The question and shall then retire'." I think this is before the House is that clause 1 of the straightforward and explains itself, we Bill, to which there has been an amend- have got to keep some continuity. "(2) ment moved by Mr Quayle, seconded by The first elections of the members of Mr Irving, that the words following the Executive Council by the Council "elected" in little (b) of clause 1 "who and the Keys under section 14 of this shall be chairmen of a board of Tyn- Act. as amended by section 2 of the wald." I think that is correct, isn't it, Isle of Man Constitution Amendment Mr Quayle? (No. 2) Act, 1967, shall take place at the respective sittings of the Council and Mr 'MacLeod.: That is already in, Mr the Keys which shall be held next after Acting-Speaker. the sitting of Tynwald. at which the The ACting-Speaker; No, it is not. All election of chairmen and members of those in favour of the amendment say boards of Tynwald shall be finally com- aye, against say no. pleted next' after the commencement of

Constitution Amendment (No. 2) Bill, Second and Third Readings Approved. HOUSE OF KEYS, APRIL 25, 1967 1273 this Act." I think that explains itself. Mr Kneale: There is no doubt about "(3) Subsequent elections shall take it. place at the respective sittinz's of the Sir Henry Sugden: The Clerk says Council and the Keys which shall be one thing and the mover of the Bill says held next after the sitting of Tynwald another. Surely we ought to get this at which the first election of chairmen sorted out. and members of boards of Tynwald is finally completed subsequent to each The Acting-Speaker: Let us have one general election of the Keys." I beg to at a time then. Mr Secretary, what are move that clause 1 stand as part of the your views? Bill. The Secretary of the House: Cause 2 The ActingSpeaker: Seconder please. is a substitution of 16 of the principal Act. Sub-section (2) says — "The first Mr Anderson: I second. elections of the members of the Execu- The Acting-Speaker: It has been pro- tive Council by the Council and, Keys posed and seconded. Does any other under section 14 of this Act (the member wish to speak? principal Act that is), as amended by section 2 of this Act, this present Bill." Sir Henry Sugden: May I just raise a Well it is section 1 or clause 1 of this small point? I may be suite wrong Bill which has effectively amended about this• In the middle of (2) it reads "as amended by section 2 of the Isle of section 14 of the principal Act. Man Constitution Amendment Act, The Acting-Speaker: Clause 1 in this 1967," Should that not be section 1? Act. Ms Simcocks: It is the first Act. This Mr Irving: Surely, Mr Acting-Speaker, is the second one, sir. section 2 of this Act remains clause 16 Sir Henry Sugden: Am 1 getting of the principal Act, not clause 14. mixed up between all these various The Acting-Speaker: You are refer- Constitution Acts which are rocketing ring to the principal Act, sir. Do you around the place like satellites in orbit? wish to repeat that, Sir Henry, what The Acting,Sneaker: I am assured by you have got? the Clerk it is perfectly correct. Sir Sir Henry Sugden: Well I thought it Henry. was suite clear, Mr Acting-Speaker. Sir Henry .Sugden: This is correct? What I suggested was that in line 23. amended by section 2, it should be—"of The Secretary of the House: No. but the Isle of Man Constitution Amend- what Sir Henry says is correct. What ment No. 2 Act" which is what this is Sir Henry says is correct, Mr Acting- headed, section 2 should be section 1. Speaker, it should be section 1. The Acting-Speaker: That is my inter- The Acting-Speaker: The number is pretation. wrong? Sir. Henry Sugden: It looks to me quite Mr Callister: It is in the No. 1 Act. clear. Mr Crellin: Mr Acting-Speaker, I dis- Mr Kneale: Now section 2 is quite agree. Does this not refer to lines 16, 17, correct. dealing with the election, the 18 and 19, that is to say of section 2 of third part, the election of boards of this Act? I know that successors are Tynwald. elected under sub-section (.2) of this Sir Henry Sugden: May a suggest, Mr section and shall then retire. The first Acting-Speaker, we seem to have a elections of members of the Executive difference of opinion on this. Council by the Council and Keys under

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section 14 of this Act, as amended, by It was agreed. section 2, that is to say, about four lines above. Mr Kneale: Clause 3. Substitution of new section for section 18 of the prin- Mr Spittall: Mr Acting-Speaker, I cipal Act (which relates to the term of think it is quite clear, despite what the orrice of members and casual vacancies hon. member for Rushen says. Firstly, in the Executive Council) there shall be if you look back to section 1 of this Act sulbslitut..d the following ;section - this deals with section 14 and section— "Term of office and casual vacancies. this particular, little (2) of 2 deals again 18 (1) The members of the Executive with section 14 and says in fact—"when Council shall hold office from the date the provisions of section 1 of this come of their election thereto until their into force." It must be 1, not 2. successors have been elected, where- The Acting-Speaker: That is my inter- upon they shall vacate their offices. (2) pretation. Any retiring ,memiber of the Executive Council shall be eligible for re-election Mr Kneale: I bow to that. if otherwise qualified. (3) Any casual The Acting-Speaker: We alter the vacancy in the Executive Council shall word to "one" — you are all agreed? be filled at any time in the same manner as the seat vacated was filled. I move It was agreed. that this clause stand as part of the Mr MacLeod: Considering Mr Acting- Bill, Speaker there was 'was no doubt what- soever in the mind of the mover of this The Acting-Speaker: Seconder? Bill that it was correct as printed, I Mr Moore: I second. think it should be sent to the Attorney- General for clarification. The Acting-Speaker: This is proce- • The Acting-Speaker: But he has dure anyway. agreed. Sir Henry Sugden: Mr Acting- Mr MacLeod: He hasn't. He stated he Speaker again I may be splitting hairs was absolutely dead sure that he was and I am perfectly prepared to be put correct. back in my place, but I do not like this term '•if otherwise qualified." Surely Mr Corkish: The times you have said should it not be "if so qualified" other- that and been wrong. wise it brings in a whole host of Mr MacLeod: I know that. possibly extraneous considerations. Mr Moore: He is just bowing to the The Acting-Speaker: This is little (2) ruling of the House if you had listened you are referring to? "Any retiring properly a few minutes ago. member of the Executive Council shall be eligible for re-election if otherwise Mr tIVIacLeod: I know what he said. qualified." It is the same wording in The Acting-Speaker: Mr Kneale, have the principal Act, Sir Henry. you finished your reply? If so, I put this cl ause- Sir Henry Sugden: I bow to that, sir. Mr Kneale: There was no point raised It was agreed. on that. Mr Kneale: Substitution of new The Acting-Speaker: No, there section for section 19 of the principal wasn't.. Only this one — it's only that Act — For section 19 of the principal point raised, you see. Are you agreed Act which relates to the relinquishment on clause 2 as amended? of office by members of the Executive

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Council holding office on the 12th day vacated. Provided, however, (a) that he of December 1961) the following section shall continue to be a member of such shall be substituted — "Special provi- board or of the Executive Council until sions re relinquishment of office on first his successor shall be elected; and (b) elections. 19 (I). This section shall that he shall be eligible to be re-elected apply only to first elections by the as a member of such board, if he shall Council and the Keys of members of be otherwise qualified." This is to the Executive Council held after the commencement of the Isle of Man Con- prevent the situation that arose when stitution Amendment (No. 2) Act, 1967. the two members of the House of Keys (2) Notwithstanding the provisions of in the last House were elevated to the subsection (1) of section 18 of this Act Legisiative Council, and they were a successor to any sitting member of existing members of Executive Council the Executive Council shall not be and board chairmen. This is to prevent deemed to have been elected as a mem- that happening in the future. I move ber of the Executive Council until the this clause stand as part of the Bill. election of all the members thereof by both the Council and the Keys shall The Acting-Speaker: Seconder, please. have been completed." This explains itself. You might have there the chair- Mr Moore: I second. man of the Finance Board who is automatically a member of the Execu- The Acting-Speaker: Any member tive Council, he doesn't take over from wish to speak? the existing chairman of Finance Board until the other new members of Execu- • Mr Quayle: Mr Acting-Speaker, tive Council have been appointed, and whilst I see the. desirability behind this they go in en bloc. clause 1 do see in little clause ('b) in line five, page four, why should a The Acting-Speaker: Instead of member elevated from this House be separately. debarred from being elected, if suitably qualified, as a member of Executive Mr Anderson: I beg to second. Council in another place? It says here, that although elevated, I am putting It was agreed. this into another form of English, he The Acting-Speaker: Clause 5. shall still be eligible to be re-elected as a member of such board. Can we take Mr Kneale: Clause 5. Vacation of the situation of, let us say, the chairman office as member of a board or of Execu- of the Finance Board, who is a member tive Council — "If any member of of the House of Keys for purposes of Tynwald shalt be elected by Tynwald my example; then a vacancy occurs in as a member of a board of Tynwald or the Upper House — that vacancy may commercial board .(both such expres- be caused by somebody dying or so sions having the same meaning as in forth, and the person who has left the section 13 of the Payment of Members' House was a member of Executive Expenses Act 1957), or is elected by Council — now you elevate the chair- e:ther Branch of Tynwald as a member man of the Finance Board, why of the Executive Council, then if such shouldn't he then be elected as a mem- member shall thereafter cease to be a ber of the Executive Council again? member of the Branch. of which he was According to this clause he cannot be. a member at the time of his election, his membership of such board or, as Mr Callister: The answer to that is the case may be, of the Executive that having been elected by the House Council shall, ipso facto, become of Keys he may not have been elected

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f.f•• • by the Legislative Council. The Legis- Mr Kerruish: Yes, but I am referring lative Council then have the opportunity to the point — it says here "or." I am of either electing him or rejecting him. reading it that if he is elevated to another place ,according to this Bill as Sir Henry Sugden: Mr Acting-Speaker, is printed he has.got to vacate his seat I have already voiced in general terms on Executive Council or his member- my objections to this clause and I think ship of the board — that is as it reads. in a way the hon. mover has almost Does this cover both cases or should taken the words out o. my mouth it be or/and — I would like the hon. because he is saying this is designed to members comments on this point. obviate the position when in the higher The Acting-Speaker: Does any other House, we, this House of Keys, this hon. member wish to speak? If not I call on House elected two of our members to Mr Kneale to reply. the Legislative Council. We knew what we were doing. We needn't have done Mr Kneale: Mr Kerruish, the inten- it. So why are we — in this, as I have tion is that if a member of this House said before, trying to protect ourselves was to move up to the Legislative Coun- against ourselves. I personally can see cil, and he was a member or a chairman no point in it. The other minor point I (3._° a board or a member of Executive had, and this is a minor point I think, Council, he would vacate all these posi- in little (b), lines 5 and 6 "that he shall tions. be eligible to be re-elected as a member Mr Kerruish: I know that is the of such board," Suppose in fact he was intention — does the Bill say that? chairman of that board. Are we debar- ring his re-election as chairman when Mr Kneale: Membership of such in fact he was that ,before. As I read board or as the case may be of the this we are, in fact, doing just that Executive Council, it just depends how thing. you interpret the word "or."

Mr Kerruish: Just one small point, Mr Kerruish: I read it as "or", one sir, I am just wondering whether the or the other. It might not be what you use of the word "or" is correct in the intend. bottom line anyway. "That such member Mr Kneale: We could perhaps make shall cease to be a member of the it stronger. Make it or/and, something Branch of which he was a member at like that. the time of his election, his membership of such Board or, as the case may be, The Acting-Speaker: The Clerk says of the Executive Council, shall ipso there is a straight-forward alternative. facto become vacated." Does that give What applies to one applies to the him an alternative? I thought the impli- other. cation of the hon. mover of the Bill was Mr Kerruish: MT Acting-Speaker, that he would vacate both offices. 1 am with• respect what does that last com- wondering whether a literal interpreta- ment of yours mean? Does it mean that tion of this clause would mean that it he has to resign both offices. would simply be one of those offices that he would have to vacate statutorily. The Acting-Speaker: All offices I take I admit it is just a minor point but I it. I am presuming he is chairman of a would be glad if you would clarify that board at the start. for me. Mr Kerruish: Thank you, sir. The Acting-Speaker: "Member" means Mr Kneale: I would point out that "chairman" as well, Mr Kerruish—The the actual drafting of this — the legal Boards of Tynwald Act 1952 terminology — was done by the Attar-

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ney-General, and the Clerk of the House The Acting-Speaker: Clauses 6, 7 and has had a good look at it as well. They 8. Are you all agreed? have approved this as being the proper It was agreed. phrasing — so who am I to argue? Sir Henry Sugden, he keeps raising this The Acting-Speaker: Thank you, Mr issue about people going upstairs and Kneale, I know we are not going to convince Mr Kneale: I wonder if I could seek him on this issue. We are not protecting the indulgence of the Court to apply for ourselves against ourselves — we are a third reading- of this Bit:, .by asking protecting ourselves from a situation for the suspension of Standing Orders. arising as it arose in the past—that we The ActingSpeaker: I think it is only suddenly found ourselves with a fair to Mr Kneale under the circum- minority on Executive Council — it is stances. There is a technical difficulty as plain as that, but now we are laying it down by statute that at all times this here if it is not done today, and I think it is only fair that the House should House will have five representatives cn Executive Council and the Legislative have an explanation from us and this Council will have two. The point that is the only reason why Mr Kneale •was raised regarding little (b) that brought it before the House so that the he shall be eligible to be re-elected as a Legislative Council, who will be con- member of such Board, if he shall be sidering this matter in their own place within three months. Now April 30th is otherwise qualified. Well often enough if he is chairman of a Board his posi- the deadline date for this sort of thing, tion •on Executive Council is usually not July 30th. July 30th is the end of the legislative year and of course they dependent on — in the past — on being the chairman of the board and if he has have got that time to deal with this or lost his position, as chairman of the consider the Bill. I think that is a fair board in the oast, he would have Iost statement, Mr Kneale. his position on Executive Council auto- Mr Kneale: if the Legislative Council matics:1y. ;But here we have no say like to be funny on this here they could over — as a body — over the election virtually rule it out of order by not on to the Legislative Council of any dealing with it in the next three months. member, and I think that if the Legis- They could argue that because we lative Council wish to appoint this haven't got it to them before 30th April person to the Executive Council, in they could rule us out. This was only place of somebody, as you suggest, who brought to my notice this morning and may have died, then they have every that is why I have pushed the thing right to do so in section one of this through. today and I am now asking for Bill. I move that section five stand as the suspension of Standing Orders to part of the 13i1.1. try and get the third reading of the Bill. The Acting-Speaker: The question Mr Burke: I .beg to second. before the House is that clause 5 stand Mr Quayle: I would suggest, Mr as part of the Bill. Those in favour Acting-Speaker, that whilst normally I please say aye, against say no. The ayes would not approve of this procedure have it. Now, the rest of it is just the because this is a constitutional matter repeals, citation and the commencement. which should go through its various Mr Kneale: I move that clauses 6, 7., stages gently and: slowly, but I will. I 8 and the schedule stand as part of the take the point of the hon. member on Bill. this three-month rule and under those circumstances only, I will support the Mr Moore: I second. resolution.

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The Acting-Speaker: I think to be go along, as we did on the last occasion fair to Mr Kneale I only got to know when we discussed the first 30 clauses. of it at lunchtime as well. I was quite When the House adjourned we had anaware and it was confirmed by the reached clause 30 and I will continue ierk of the House and that is the only with clause 31, and clause 31 is the reason why it was put in this form, clause dealing with the soliciting by because it was going to take its course men, which is a new clause in Manx law in the usual way until we found this and it is—Ibeg to move that clause 31 matter, the way it has come out, I put stand as part of the Bill. it before the House that Standing Mr Callister: I second. Orders be suspended to take the third• reading of the Isle of Man Constitution It was agreed. Bill, 1967. All those in favour say aye, against no. Mr Anderson: Mr Acting-Speaker, I shall take the consolidation clauses to- It was agreed. gether — 32, then 33, 34 and 35 right down to 36 which are all, with the one Mr Kneale: Mr Acting-Speaker, I will proviso that on page 1.1 (3) it is actually not waste any further time. I formally at the moment a tenant or occupier— move the third reading of the Isle of this provision of course deals with the. Man Constitution Amendment (No. 2) suppression of brothels, both from the Bill, 1967. brothel keeper, the landlord letting Mr Burke: I beg to second. premises for this purpose and the tenant for permitting the premises to be The Acting-Speaker: The question used for this purpose, and the only new bafore the House is the third reading provision in this whole section is in (3) of the Bill. It has been moved and where the tenant/occupier is also sort of seconded. All those in favour say aye, dealt with under this clause, and it against no. becomes an offence for him to allow It was agreed. premises to be used for this purpose indefinitely. I would beg to move that these—up to 35 and 36 remain as part of the Bill, SEXUAL OF EWES BILL—FURTHER CONSIDERATION OF CLAUSES AND Mr Callister: I second. THIRD READING—APPROVED It was agreed. The Acting-Speaker: Do you want to Mr Anderson: Now clause 37 — this go on now with the Sexual Offences Bill actually deals with the Second Schedule or deal with this other matter — the —the First Schedule rather, I am. sorry, proceedings of Executive Council in and under the Crlin:nal Code Amend- private? I am in your hands. ment Act 1886, section 20, the landlord Sir Henry Sugden: I think we should was simply given power to determine resume our agenda. the lease and to sue for recovery of pos- session in the same manner as a tenant It was agreed. at will. This gives him power, special Mr Anderson: Mr Acting-Speaker, I powers to take possession under the would just remind the House that this amended form. I beg to move that 37 is the Consolidation Bill, the Sexual stand as part of the Bill. Offences Bill, that brings the law relat- Mr Callister: I second. ing to Sexual offences up to date and more in line with the United Kingdom. It was agreed. Where a change in the existing Manx Mr Anderson: 38 and 39 are exactly law exists I will point that out as we the same as existing law and I beg to

Sexual Offences Bill—Further Consideration of Clauses and Third Reading— Approved. HOUSE OF KEYS, APRIL 25, 1967 1279

move that they also stand as part of somebody and take them to a police the Bill. station. So this would apply also—any- one would be a civilian. Mr Callister: 1 second. Mr Anderson: Apparently that is cor- The .Acting-Speaker: All agreed? rect- That is the answer, Mr Acting- It was agreed. Speaker. Mr Anderson: Clause 40. This is a new The Acting-Speaker: This is dealing provision and it does relate to powers of with 29, 30 and 31 of this Act, this arrest. In the cases of procuring or pros- number 41. That is the solicitation. titution of women. I beg to move that Mr Anderson: Yes, that is dealing this stand as part of the Bill. with that; 42 is existing law and I beg Mr Callister: C second. to move it stands as part of the Bill. Mr Mocre: I second. The lActing-Speaker: All agreed, gentlemen? Mr Crellin: Did the mover of this Bill say that 40 and 41 were both part of It was agreed. existing law? Or is this new legislation Mr Anderson: Clause 41 also gives peculiar to the Isle of Man? I know new powers of arrest. This is not in about 42. existing law. It is giving powers to Mr Anderson: Forty-one is new. It is arrest without warrant and 1 beg to existing law in the United Kingdom. move- Mr Crellin: It is existing law. Thank Mr Moore: On a point of clarification. you. Can I have the term explained, "any- one" may arrest. Mr Anderson: I ihave moved number 42, Now 43, powers to arrest in the cases Mr Anderson: I actually—generally it of loitering for the purposes of prosti- refers to a constable. tution. This apparently is existing Manx Mr Moore: It d:esn't say so. law—it is not existing .Manx law but it has been law in the United Kingdom for Mr Ancier.ion: (But in this one. some time and I beg to move. The Acting-Spaaher: You would want Mr Moore: I beg to second. someone in authority to do bhat, The Acting-Speaker: Agreed? wouldn't you? It was agreed. Mr Anderson: I actually didn't Mr Anderson: Forty-four, 45, 46 and enquire on this one. On many of the 47. There is actually no change here. points I have done. It would have to be These are all clauses which are in exist- somebody in authority obviously. ing law. It will be appreciated by the The Acting-Speaker: Well could you House that if you look at the bottom of leave that one this week, the second this that these Acts go back over 1886, reading. We could have it on the third 1806, 1930, 1940, 1925 and 1929, so they reading. are bringing them together under one Mr Anderson: Well I could clarify it Act and I beg to move that up to 47 for the third reading if that is permis- stand as part of the Bill. sible. Shall, we leave that for the third Mr Canister: I second. reading then. It was agreed. Mr Burke: Mr Acting-Speaker, under Mr Anderson: Forty-eight is actually a common law in the United Kingdom it new provision, but it is only new in the is possible for any person to arrest sense that the definition of boy can

Sexual Offences Bill—Further Consideration of Clauses and Third Reading— Approved. 1280 HOUSE OF KEYS, APRIL 25, 1967 either mean boy or man, or vice versa as tion 8 and this actually is a new offence, far as women or girls are concerned— in the sense there wasn't a punishment each word is interchangeable. This is for somebody procuring a defective the only difference here—I beg to move until now. This deals wi.h the offence that 48 and 49, which is actually with- and the penalty is two years on indict- out change again, stand as part of the ment; and on 13 — Incest by a man; Bill. • penalty is at the moment two years, Mr Callister: I second. even in the case of a girl under 13. Of The Acting-Speaker: All agreed, It is course it is absolutely imperative that agreed. Part II, Supplementary, No. 50. somebody who is responsible for a child How far does this go? To the end Mr under the age of 13 ought to be a respon- Anderson? sible person and ought to .be one who, if not acting in a responsible manner, can Mr !Anderson: Actually there is 50, 51, have the child taken from their care. 52, 53, 54, 55 again from the informa- Actually in th.s—on the right-hand side tion given to me I understand that these of 13, late (2) where it says in the case are all part of existing law and I beg of intercourse with a girl between 13 to move. and in the Bill it says 16, jc actually Mr Canister: I second. should say "under 16" —section 6 —if you would insert this "under 16' in that The Acting-Speaker: Agreed? It is clause. Then we go on then to 14-14 agreed. First Schedule, we will do that, is exactly the same, it is under present Mr Anderson. law, for attempt it is seven years. Under Mr Andersen: The First Schedule, 14 on page 22. On page 23, two years in again there is no change here. On page the case of a girl under 13. Possibly I 19 there is no change, but if you turn to could ask that, at this stage, up to the page 20, "Intercourse with girl under end of page 23, stand as part of the Bill. the age of 13." The penalty under exist- In fact 1 would like to go further and ing law is life. I don't know why they to go over to page 24, clause 24, that should note that because it is the same. that stand as part of the Bill. Because That dces not appear to be a change up to that stage there is no change in although a note has been made of it. existing law. I beg to move. It is all right up to part two—these are exactly the same as at the moment and Mr Callister I second. I move the first part of the Second Mr Devereau: I would just like to be Schedule. assured, Mr Acting-Speaker, that the Mr Callister; I second it. answer that the mover gave on your question was the correct one, because in The Acting-Speaker: May I just ask all other Bills we have seen there has one question on this, Mr Anderson, from been an alternative to the sentence, but the chair- These punishmen:s—are these in this one it just says either "life" or maximum or are these fixed punish- "seven years." I know these offences are ments? very serious and they should be—and Mr Anderson: These are maximum. the punshment is very just, but I think mistakes can happen, and I think we The Acting-Speaker: Yes, they can be should be certain that the mover is right reduced. Are •you all agreed on the when. he says the answer to this is that schedules? Anything further, Mr Ander- this sentence is. a maximum one. son? Mr Anderson: We go on to part two Mr Anderson: Yes, I can give that and again here—these are all right up assurance to the House that this is a 'to (a) on page 21. This deals with sec- maximum sentence.

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Mr Burke: But is it written in the on conviction, on indictment, or on Bill? summary conviction, a reference to a period giving the maximum term, of Mr Callister: Surely there is no such imprisonment and a reference to a sum thing as a fixed penalty on anything. of money the maximum fine. This The Acting Sneaker: Well, you see on actually deals with it insofar as there the third column provisions as to are maximum and of course there must alternative verdicts etc., here you see, it be minimum. uses the word "punishment" in the centre column. Sir Henry Sugden: Mr Acting-Speaker, on a point of order, is the hon. member Mr Callister: Every penalty is a replying now? For I have one or two maximum, points. Mr Burke: The maximum is life. The Acting-Speaker: Carry on then, Mr Anderson:. I would like to point Sir Henry. out that most of these actually, as I have already pointed out, are existing Sir Henry Sugden: Thank you. The law, and which we know the maximum first two are very minor ones indeed sentence has not been used over the because according to what ,I have got written down here there should be a yearq. very minor amendment under section Mr Irving: I must say, Mr Acting- 12 (a) which is the addition of the Speaker, the hon. member has pointed words, section 8. And a bracket at the out that 12 (a) — the procuring of a very end of .14 (b), only a very minor defective—is a new one. That is 12 (a). one, I think they were on the amend- Did the hon. member say that was new? ment circulated. Now I agree very much I notice that the maximum punishment indeed with what the hon. member for there is two years. I notice the procur- East Douglas, Mr Irvinz has said on ment of a woman who is not a defective this question of procuring a defective. is two years. II would have thought that It is after all a very serious offence to that sentence, possible top sentence of my mind! and far more serious than that two years for procurement of a defec- 'of procuring anybody who is in full tive was not strong enough, as far as poss=sion of their wits. Now I do I am concerned. Unless the hon. member 'remember, sir, that when I took through has some reason it would strike me that a Road Traffic Consolidation Bill some anybody who procured a defective years ago, I was told that I should not person might. .under circumstances get accept any amendments, but however, considerably more, or warrant consider- this hon. House in fact varied the ab.y more than two years imprisonment. sentences for drunken driving. They were accepted and on that basis I beg Mr Anderson: Yes. well I consider to move an amendment to this that actually that possibly, that is the case, those two years should be recorded five but it is as it has been handed to me. years. I remember some years ago bringing a case of this sort to the notice of the Mr Irving: I beg to second. inspector at Peel and he said, "I am powerless to do anything about it." It is Mr Devereau: Mr Acting-Speaker, to time that the law was amended to this do that you would. have to move this extent because it has been Pointed out No. 12 from part two to part. one, to me—on page 12 (3) the third column because part one is felonies, and of the schedule shows for any offence, attempts at felonies, and part two, of the punishment which may be imposed which this is one, is offences other than

Sexual OfTences Bill—Further Consideration of !Clauses and Third Reading— Approved. 1282 HOUSE OF KEYS. APRIL 25, 1967

felonies and attempts at felonies, for The Acting-Speaker: Well it has to which the maximum sentence is two go back to the Council, so they can sort years. So if a sentence had to be it out there. increased it would have to go over, I think, to part one of the second Sir Henry Sugden: After all, Mr schedule. Acting-Speaker, under 13 you have "life, otherwise seven years." Mr Anderson: But at 2P, it is seven The Acting-Speaker: Yes. years on the same page. Sir Henry Sugden: Ten years under Mr Burke: Mr Acting-Speaker, it 18. Seven years under 14 (a). I think might clear it. and 1 would be prepared this is — even if we are wrong, and to move an amendment that the punish- personally I don't believe we are, could ment be not less than two years. well be sorted out. Mr Anderson: I would say, Mr Acting- The Acting-Speaker: Could I dispose Speaker, would be perfectly happy to of the amendment now or do you want accept the amendment. to say — do you agree to it, Mr Anderson? Mr Irving: Five years. Mr Anderson: I agree to it but I Mr Callister: Mr Acting-Speaker, I would just noint out that at the moment wonder if we are wise enough to make it is actually two years in the English these alterations. This 8:11 has been Act, but I agree with the hon. members passed: in the Council. It has been pre- that it does seem in comparison—you pared by the Attorney-General by com- .sse. you take down here, well, living mand of His Excellency the Lieutenant- off the earnings of prostitution, I feel Governor, and there is no doubt about that this is equally wrong. I think it it there was legal opinion in the Council could actually bear a heavier sentence in which we have one member — who for that. I am very happy to accept the hasn't said anything about it, I hoped amendment. he would have done but the legal Mr Moore: Why cou:dn't the Court questions it leads to and so on, the take a more serious view on this Attorney-General had this in mind. I penalty? quite agree with the fact that it does appear that some of these penalties'are Mr Anderson: I think that the House low, but are we—before we pass it for is perfectly in order. the third reading—could we make some The Acting-Speaker: The amendment enquiries and have some ocnfirmation is before the House that the alterations before doing it? I am quite prepared to ha made from two to five years. Is that support the second read:n.0 if we can do agreed? Anybody against it? All those something like that. in favour say aye, against say no. The Acting-Speaker: It is a question It was agreed. • of the amendment that is before the Miss Thornton-Duesbery: Mr Acting- House, Mr Ca:lister. We have an amend- Speaker, may I ask will that include ment before the House. No. 28—causing or encouraging prosti- tution of defective? That is two years Mr Callister: What are its terms? also. The Acting-Speaker: The alteration of The Acting-Speaker: Well we haven't two years to five years. reached that. You could move an Mr Callister: It may conflict with amendment to that effect if you wish. something, Mr Acting-Speaker. I don't Mr AndersoM We haven't actually, know. and I will be happy to accept that

Sexual .Offences Bill—Further Consideration of Clauses and Third Reading— Approved.

HOUSE OF KEYS, APRIL 25, 1967 ,1283 amendment, because it wouldn't be months at the moment. I think this is consistent otherwise. one that the House will readily accept. Claus:: 31 — again at the moment this The Acting-Speaker: Well you haven't is only three months, the sentence being got to that stage yet. You will proceed under 31.1 beg to move that 29. 30, 31, then. 32 — 32, which is exactly the same - Mr Anderson: Actually the House has stand as part of the Bill. accepted and I move that 25 remain as Mr Moore: I will second that. part of the Bill, Mr AclingSpeaker. The Acting-Speaker: Any member It was agreed. wi7:11 to comment ? Are you all agreed ? aVIr Anderson: I Move 26 and 27 to It was agreed. allow for the amendment mentioned in 28—there is no change here, and I move Mr Anderson: Now 33 — keeping a that they remain as part of the Bill. brothel. At the moment, the first offence is £20 or three months' imprisonment: The Acting-Speaker: Are you going to the second offence, £40 or four months' touch on—Miss Thornton-Duesbery, do .'mprisonment. That is the previous sen- you want to move that amendment to tence. That will be ,increased, of course, No. 28? to six months or to £250, or both. Miss Tharnton-Duesbery: Yes, Mr Tha Acting--Speaker Which one are Acting-Speaker. you an new, Mr Anders-2n ? The Acting-Speaker: Well could. I have Mr Anden'.on: Clause 33. That is a seconder? increased from £.20 and three months Mr Burke: I will second. for a first offence to £40 and four The Acting-Speaker: Is the House months for a second offence. That was agreed then? what it was previously. Now it is In- creased to, for an offence committed Mr Canister: What is that, 26, 27 and after a previous conviction, six months 28? or £250, or both, otherwise three months Mr Anderson: Number 27. or £100, or both. I beg to move the The Acting-Speaker: Twenty-eight. increase stand as part of the Bill. Mr Callister: Well why not 26. 27? I Mr Ca'lister: Seconded. feel that we do not know where we are The Acting-Speaker: Is it agreed ? going, Mr Acting-Speaker. It was agreed. The Acting-Eneaker: There is 26. 27 and 28, Miss Thorn ton-Duesbery, do Sir Henry Sugden: I wonder if tte mover could explain why all these you want the amendment now? offences, which after all are fairly Mr Callister: I will move that as an serious offences, ars all dealt with sum- amendment, sir. marily, and there does appear to be no Miss Thornton-Duesbery: I agree to provision in here for dealing with them that, Mr Acting-Speaker. in a court o.:: General Gaol, on indict- ment. After all, second or third offences, The Acting-Speaker: And wilt you surely, should be dealt with more second it. Mr Callister, five years for seriously. The hon. member may well 26, 27 and 28? have the answer, but I don't understand. It was agreed. Mr Anderson: Without going back Mr Anderson: Then 29 — living on again, there are actually quite a few the earnings of prostitution. This goes of these which can be dealt with by up to seven years, and as it is only three indictment, because actually you see—

Sexual Offences Bill—Further Consideration of Clauses and Third Reading— Approved. 1284 HOUSE• OF 'KEYS, APRIL 25, 1967

Sir Henry Sugden: Well, you have got Mr Anderson: I ask for the suspen- the alternatives-- sion of Standing Orders. Mr Anderson: Seven years — I mean, Mr Burke: Seconded. a seven-year sentence cannot be given by a Court of Summary Jurisdiction, The Acting-Speaker: Is it agreed ? and therefore it must be dealt with by It was agreed. a Court of General Gaol Delivery. Clauses 34, 35 and 36 — they are all Mr Anderson: I beg to move. I would changed in proportion as 33. The in- like to say, Mr Acting-Speaker, that I crease in penalty in each ease is exactly d5 appreciate very much the help the the same. I beg to move. House has given me today, and on the previous occasion, 'in dealing with this Mr Canister: Seconded. Bill. It is a consolidation Bill, and, as I The Acting-Speaker: Is it agreed ? have pointed out, it doesn't very largely change existing law, and I Lev to move It was agreed. the third reading. Mr Anderson: The Third Schedule. Mr Burke: I beg to second. Actually in the Child-fen and Young Persons Act, 1966, section it says 14 That The Acting-Speaker: The third read- should actually be 13. Will you change ing has been m:ved of the Sexual that to 13, and — the Children and Offences Bill, 1967. All those in favour Young Persons Act, 1966, further down say aye, against no. the page — will you please delete that It was agreed. completely. There are no further chan- ges in this section, and I move that the Mr Kerruish: Mr Acting-Speaker, I Third Schedule stand part of the Bill. feel that before we leave this particular matter I will be expressing the opinion Mr Canister: Seconded. of every member of the House in saying The Acting-Speaker: Is the House. how much I have admired the very tact- agreed'? ful way in which this measure has been It was agreed. handled by Mr Anderson. This, I think, is the first occasion on which he has Mr Anderson: The Fourth Schedule handled a Bill. It has been a task that —which is actually a repeal of the no one in this House has envied, and I existing law, when this here becomes think he merits the congratulations of effective, I move the Fourth Schedule the -whole of this House for the very and the repeal of all those Bills that are competent and very tactful way in mentioned there. which he has handled it. Mr Canister: Seconded. The Acting-Speaker: I would join in The Acting-Speaker: Is the House that. Thank you very much, Mr Ander- agreed.? son. It was agreed. Mr Callister: The third reading. Mr Anderson: I beg to ask for the BETTING BILL indulgence of the House to take the —SECOND READING third reading of the Sexual Offences Bill, The Acting-Speaker: I call upon Mr 1967. Spittall for the Betting- Bill, second The Acting-Speaker: Is it seconded ? reading. Mr Kneale: You will have to ask fcr Mr SpittAl: Mr Acting-Speaker, hon. the suspension of Standing Orders members, as 1 am 'sure everybody before you can do that. realises, this is only an interim measure.

Betting Bill—Second Reading. HOUSE OF .KEYS, APRIL 25, 1967 1255

It is Purely designed to prevent some of Mr Spittall: And it does take away the somewhat unpleasant scenes which from the police the obligation of actually occurred last summer, when numbers of arresting people. I move the second the public were arrested in betting reading of the Betting Bill 1967. shops — in betting premises. It in no way legalises cash betting and, in fact, Mr Anderson: I beg to second. if anything, it makes it more difficult, and it certainly makes the bookmaker's Mr Corkish: Mr Acting-Speaker, i am jcb more difficult. I trust, therefore, that those members who are rigidly opposed going to oppose this Bill. This Bill - and it is very unusual for me to oppose to gambling and betting in any form a Betting Bill — is an interim Bill. Now, Will not oppOse this Bill. It isn't the thin they could have produced a Cash edge Of the wedge. It is just an interim Batting Bill as quickly as they have pro- theaSure to prevent these rather ugly duced this Bill. Now, I know that this scenes which have occurred in the past. came up in August — it came up in To those hon. members of the House who would prefer to see cash betting August, before the Executive Council, for the preparation of a Cash Betting made legal, I would say have patience, Bill. but there was opposition. Mr There it a Bill in the course of prepa- Speaker contacted me to see if I would tatiOn — the hon. member for South put this Bill through which Colonel Douglas has it in hand — but I think it Spittall has just done. I wanted to know might take some time to get it through. who produced the Bill, and he said the Actually, it isn't even produced yet. I Governor in Executive Council. Now, think, having heard Tynwald debating with all due rebeet, the Governor, very the resolution On this Subject some reluctantly, gave the casting vote. Four weeks ago, even the most competent members of the Executive Council are man putting a sill forward could not opposed to betting, and that is where Feel really confident that he could get a this Bill her come from. We do not want Bash betting Bill on to the Statute Book to protect the visitors: we want to give before this next summer season, I cer- them freedom. They want to have free- tainly do. not think that it is possible, dom to .be able to do their bets. Protect because there will obviously be opposi- the visitors so that they will not be tion in this House, and I think it is locked up. but what of the poor old tjuite .clear that there will be consider- locals'. If he is in the place is he going Wbl@ opposition in another place. I, to be collared ? It is going to be a case personally, would far rather see that of the bookies wanting protection. The Bill on the Statue Book than this, but I bookies will want protection this sum- think that this is, perhaps, only what mer if this Bill comes forward and is we can do in the meantime, just, shall I agreed 1.0.. I know for a fact that there say, as a purely interim measure. The is one bookmaker who is going to actual Bill calls for the registration of employ a man outside his place. person bookmakers and their premises. It lays ally, and he's got the doors locked and down that they must show a proper notic.a, explaining that only cash betting he is going to advise them to go to the Attorney-General is allowed— Mr Burke: He won't take their bets! Mr Kneale: Only credit betting. (Laughter). Mr Spittall: Only credit betting, I am sorry. Mr Corkish: We are talking about legalising — we introduce Bills because Mr Corkish: I would have accepted it 'they have' been introduced in England. if you had put it that way. We must follow suit. Yes, follow suit.

Betting Bill—Second Reading. 1285 HOUSE OF KEYS, APRIL 25, 1967

But we don't follow suit with the cash a win today and you go down tomorrow betting. They have got cash betting in and you get that money handed to you, England. They have cash betting in you are breaking the law, you are Scotland. They have cash betting in breaking the law. If you had a bet today Wales and Northern Ireland and South- and you went ,down tomorrow to pay ern Ireland. We are in the middle. Oh that cash to the bookie you are breaking no, we mustn't accept that at all. The the law. Now these people, what other big boys, they have accepted it. harm, is there? It is getting done. Everything else we accept, bar the The hon. member for Peel mentioned to Marine Broadcasting. is the hon. metro- me this morning that he was conducting ber for Rushen there ? The Marine tours, or seeing some tours and every Broadcasting Bill, we didn't accept person in the bus used to hand the bets that— to him. Mr. MacDonald, I have ,got a wit- ness to prove it. My colleague here an Mr Simcocks: Only at the last my left—didn't he, Mr Callister—he was moment. taking the bets for all the people. Every- body that comes to the Isle of Man bets Mr Corkish: I beg your 'pardon ? but surely we are going to give the Mr Simcocks: Only at the very last visitors something of what he has got at moment. home instead of tieing them down to a thing like this. I think this has been the Mr Corkish: There aren't very many biggest twist, in other words,• that has Bills that we don't accept that have been ever been done with the Governor and passed in England. There is another the Executive Council. They could have bookie in Douglas and he is going to ask produced the Bill for cash betting at for police protection this summer. If the same time as when they were doing this Bill is passed it will be the biggest this. scandal. A bookmaker — first offence, £100. Second offence — and it could be Mr Burke: On a point of order, Mr that somebody in this House may be in Acting-Speaker, are we considering cash putting a bet on— betting or are we considering a Bill as printed on page 1, to provide the regis- Mr Crowe: Maybe yourself. tration of bookmakers' premises etc. Mr Corkish: Maybe yourself, as you Ms MacLeod: He is making a case. say. And the poor bookies—it could be somebody that has persuaded the bookie Mr Corkish: Mr Acting-Speaker, on a to take the bet. Second offence, three point of order. What kind of order? months. Have you every heard anything What are we going to get next—a point so ridiculous as what is in this Bill? Now or order? I am trying to talk the time for the information of members of this out you know. House, my han. colleague here the member for North Douglas — he is Sir Henry Sugden: It will come up enightened now, I know that, but he next week. made a statement about credit. betting but he is convinced now that there are Mr Corkish: Well it is all the better. only three ways of doing credit betting 1 will have my Bill ready then. I can — telephone, telegraph or by letter. tell the House that 1 have been in There are only two ways of having a consultation with the Attorney-General credit bet settled and that is by money over the Bill, and I will be seeing Mr order or cheque. If you have got a Kermeen tomorrow, I hope, and I hope credit account in a bookmaker's that the Bill will be finalised and we shop with a bookmaker, and you have will have the Cash Betting Bill in the

Betting Bill—Second Reading. HOUSE OF KEYS, APRIL 25, 1967 1281

pipeline. I know that the Island printing it — on the clauses or anything else. people — the "Times" — they will work Condemn it straight away and wait a night and day for to get this Bill week or so for the Cash Betting Bill printed. They will even work without and then if you do not pass that well overtime to get this through. I know then Bob's your uncle. Turn the visitors that their hearts are in it. They want away from the Island. I hope the House freedom for the visitor. Freedom for the will turn this Bill clown. Visitor, not to go and tie him down. Put a notice up. What is it? The same thing Mr Crellin: I, sir, strongly support as what it is at the present. what the hon. member for South Doug- las, Mr Corkish, has said in this respect. Mr Burke: They have already got Now I, Mr Acting-Speaker, have got a them up in Well Road Hill. wonderful association with my book- maker. Over the past 10 years we have Mr Corkish: Well what is the use of had a very happy time together. I never having a Bill like this then if they have pay him and he never pays me and this already got it up? They have still got is an ideal situation for a privileged the law,they have still gat — you can person, I am not too sure whether or have your say just now. interrupt not he has bean registered yet, but I you. know when I called in to see him this morning and I placed my bet with him Mr Burke: I beg your pardon. on today's Epsom meeting.

Mr Corkish: They have still got the Mr Corkish: What won? Have you notice up: "Credit Betting Only." It is heard? absolutely ridiculous. Credit betting only. Visitors come over as I have Mr Crellin: I have not, but as I called stated before. They buy the paper% at in to see him— he mentioned a point seven o'clock in the morning. If some to me concerning this Bill. He said to of the country members were only in me that he thought it was going to be a Douglas at seven o'clock in the morning liffe hard' if he was forced to have when they get the papers and they open credit betting this summer because it it. I have seen them take the racing meant that a man who could leave him page out and the other part they just with a .25 deposit and then over the tele- throw away. - That is part of their holi- phone have £6 worth of bets which he day. At night-time. 6 o'clock the couldn't very well turn down, and would Echo" and the "Manchester Evening leave the country owing him a pound. A News." They do not send those papers happier man thereby for his holiday over for their news. The people do not and his betting, and probably winning read them. They are looking at the more, Mr Acting-Speaker, than I have racing results. The same — a member won in the past 10 years. Nevertheless of this House was with me about a What has bean said in condemnation of week ago and all I looked at the paper this miserable Bill is very true. This on the day out we had was just the is a Bill which sets out, not to make racing results, but•I had to — I caught things easier, but to restrict. An it will the horses alright but we we' were not mean will be that if the constable able to get the bet on. We were too late, enters premises and finds that a man is and if we bad. had the bet in we would standing there with a furtive look, no hays had a far better day out thah what money in his hand, he must not put him the Acting-Speaker and I had. Now I in the Black Maria. This to my mind am begging of the House to turn this is a miserable way of dealing with what Bill down. DO not let us waste time on is an amenity for the visitor. We, who

Betting Bill—Second Reading. 1288 HOUSE OF KEYS. APRIL 25, 1967 are privileged residents, can go on hope, the same treatment as the other having our little bob each way, and not two received. As far as this Bill today is paying purely because we have a tele- concerned it will get my support. I am phone and because we can go in to the not in favour of betting but I think this bookmaker and tell him what to back is a step forward. for us and he can advise us where we are making our mistakes. The visitor Mr Corkish: This is going to curtail cannot and we must legislate for the betting; that is why you are supporting visitor and the visitor only in this t. respect and we must introduce some • simple sort of cash betting. It will be a Mr Crowe: I am supporting it in so far better thing if we were to waste a far that we shouldn't have the scenes fortnight and consider seriously any Bill that we had in Doug:as last year, and which can be put forward to permit cash that that is my reason. As far as Exco etting than to restrict bookmakers. is concerned I think they did the sensible thing in this case. Mr Crowe: Very shortly, Mr Acting- • Epeaker. Now Exco have been in Mr Irving: Mr Acting-Speaker, I am trouib:e again today. In this case I think amazed that the hon. member who Exco have acted very well— happens to be chairman of Executive Mr Corkish: For the anti-gamblers. Council could have the nerve to get up in this Chamber and say that he Mr Crowe: Just a moment. We have thought Executive Council acted well. had two Cash Betting Bills through On the 21st February in Tynwald it was tois house — both Bills were defeated. decided that legislation to permit cash That is a fact. betting should be brought before the branches. Now apparently Executive Mr Corkish: It is a new House this Council think they know better than Lime. Tynwald and they haven't brought for- Mr Crowe: We have had two Cash ward this legislation. They have instead Betting Bills through the House of produced this horrible Bill which really Keys. They were both turned down. does not fulfil the wishes of both Last year there were happenings in brannes of the Legislature, as ex- Douglas which no-ane in the House of pre.:ised on the 21st February and does Keys would have approved of, and that nothing, to my mind, to ease the bad was visitors being carted off in the situation here in which we have cash Black Maria. betting which we cannot stop. We are driving it underground instead of pro- Mr Corkish: What about the locals? ducing a law and making it legal and controlling it to the best of our ability. Mr Crowe: Wait a minute. Visitors or I think even the opponents of cash tants were carted off. Now then, two batting will admit that cash betting Bil:s have already been turned down. goes on on a large scale here now and Wasn't it the sensible thing for Exco w:Il continue to go on and that they to do to try and get a Bill forward to can do nothing about it. I can recall stop those very stupid things happening many years ago when certain members this season. a: this House went to meet the Secre- Mr Corkish: Introduce a Cash Betting tary of the Churches Council- on Gm- Bill. la.ing at the Victoria Street Methodist Church Hall. He came to talk to us Mr Crowe: You have had your turn about the evils of the casino and when and I didn't interrupt. If a Cash Betting we had finished talking about the Bill comes forward it will receive, I casino he started to talk about cash

Betting Bill—Second Reading. HOUSE OF KEYS. APRIL 25, 1967 1289

betting and he said — "It is much better The Acting-Speaker: Mr Simcocks. to have cash betting shops than drive Mr Simcocks: I believe that one of it underground," and this was the Sec- the purposes of this Bill is to support retary of the Churches Council on the specious argument put forward last Gambling He advised us to have cash summer under which excuses were betting shops. However. I must be fair made. It was said the police were to him. I believe now having seen how forced to take the action that they took because of the law. Now, sir, I think they operate in England, I must be fair the Act under which they performed and say I think now he might change this act of arresting visitors — the date his mind. of the Act I think is 1907. The truth of the matter is this, sir, that there was a Miss Thornton-Duesbury: He has crass administrative blunder made last done. summer under which the police ignored the normal procedure under which cash Mr Irving: He may have done, yes. betting is dealt with. I am told on the Well I am suggesting that we can learn best of authority that the normal pro- a great deal from what has happened cedure when dealing wih a situation in England and so control cash betting such as was met last summer, the here that the aspects of cash betting normal procedure is to wait until the which don't please the vast majority of visitors have gone before the police those opposed to betting can be avoided raid the place. On this particular occa- here, but that the chairman of the sion, however, normal commonsense Executive Council should stand up in did not prevail with the result that it this Chamber, after we have expressly was my duty in Tynwald last August signified our approval in Tynwald to to ask the Governor to intervene legislation for cash betting and say we because, as I said, he was in charge of have introduced this Bill here today to the police, the chairman of the Police make the best of it. Now that was the Board was nothing more or less than a 21st February. If Executive Council quartermaster. hadn't put their own moral objections before the wishes of the branches of Mr MacLeod: Mr Acting-Speaker. this Legislature there would be a Bill may I draw your attention to Standing before us today to permit cash betting, Order 5 of the House. and to the clock? with probably regulations to be passed later in Tynwald. 1 cannot believe that _rho Acting-Speaker: Standing Orders Executive Council are so ineffectiive say five o'clock — if the majority of the that they cannot. beitween the 21st members wish to continue on a vote of February and the 25th April, produce a the House they can continue if they Bill for cash betting. I believe, as I have wish. Do you wish to continue or not? said, Mr Acting-Speaker, that they are letting their moral objections sway Members: No, no! them in this matter instead, of carrying out the declared wishes of both branches Sir Henry Sugden: Surely the hon. of the Legislature. I hope this House member can be allowed to continue his will discard this Bill. It may be said speech? that it is better to pass this than noth- ing at all. I believe in the long term The Acting-Speaker: Yes, I quite interests of this Island it is better to agree. The member raised on a point discard this Bill today and press on of order — I had no alternative but to with all possiible speed with a Bill to refer to it. Continue, Mr Simcocks, for legalise cash betting. the time being anyway.

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Mr Simcocks: As I said, sir, the Police sitting about in these establishments Board are no more than quartermasters while race meetings are going on. I on this matter. The responsibility for believe that cash betting should be seeing that the police conduct their organised on a basis where the public affairs with discretion is ultimately should have the opportunity to place upon the Governor and I am suggesting, their cash bets at one time of the day. sir, that the Governor's Executive and call and collect- their winnings, if Council have produced this Bill possibly any, at a different time-of the day. The jab should be brought out onto the to relieve the Governor of that respon- surface and not forced underground. sibility. I do not believe that it is This Bill, I belieVe, sir, is nothing more necessary to pass a Bill like this in or less than an excuse for telling the order to ensure that the law is adminis- police how to do their job properly. I tered in a reasonable way this coming believe, further, 'that if this Bill is summer. I believe, sir, that it is neces- passed it will mean that this will be sary that some means should be found the commencement of a policy of of bringing betting on horse racing masterly inactivity 'on behalf of a from under the counter, from round narrow-minded and bigoted Executive back streets and in door-ways. I believe Council and I would say, sir, that the that there are ways to be found — a duty of this House is to dispose of this way which will deal with the feelings Bill and encourage the hon. member for South Douglas to produce a cash betting of the people that cash betting should Bill, but when he does we will' see to be allowed and at the same time meet it that it will not allow betting shops to the objections of those who dislike the be conducted in the Isle of Man as they way in which betting shops are con- are in the United Kingdom. ducted in England. I am amongst the latter, sir I think that the way in which The Acting-Speaker: I 'am in the betting shops are conducted in England hands of the House. It says five.o'clock is a way in which I would not like to in the Standing Orders. Is it the wish see it done over here. I believe, sir, that of the House to continue? if betting shops are to be conducted properly they should be conducted Members: No. in such a way that the public, whether they be residents or visitors, should The Aching-Speaker: Well could I have an opportunity of placing their cash bets openly and legally and• with- take a vote? All those.in favour to con- out the necessity of behaving in a tinue say aye, against na. Right, well furtive way, but having placed• their the House will "stand adjourned until bets I believe that it is wrong that next Tuesday at II o'clock. they should then be given the opportu- nity of frittering away their time, The House adjourned.

Betting Bill—Second Reading.