This Is a Complete Transcript of the Oral History Interview Jennie Kingston Fitzwilliam (CN 272, T5) for the Billy Graham Center Archives

This is a complete transcript of the oral history interview Jennie Kingston Fitzwilliam (CN 272, T5) for the Billy Graham Center Archives. No spoken words which were recorded are omitted. In a very few cases, the transcribers could not understand what was said, in which case [unclear] was inserted. Also, grunts and verbal hesitations such as “ah” or “um” are usually omitted. Readers of this transcript should remember that this is a transcript of spoken English, which follows a different rhythm and even rule than written English.

Chinese place names are spelled in the transcript in the old or new transliteration form according to how the speaker pronounced them. Thus, "Peking" is used instead of "Beijing," if that is how the interviewee pronounced it. Chinese terms and phrases which would be understood were spelled as they were pronounced with some attempt made to identify the accepted transliteration form to which it corresponds.

. . . Three dots indicate an interruption or break in the train of thought within the sentence of the speaker.

. . . . Four dots indicate what the transcriber believes to be the end of an incomplete sentence.

( ) Word in parentheses are asides made by the speaker.

[ ] Words in brackets are comments made by the transcriber.

This transcript was created by Alice L. Fitzwilliam and Robert Shuster and was completed in September 2003.

Please note: This oral history interview expresses the personal memories and opinions of the interviewee and does not necessarily represent the views or policies of the Billy Graham Center Archives or Wheaton College.

© 2017. The Billy Graham Center Archives. All rights reserved. This transcript may be reused with the following publication credit: Used by permission of the Billy Graham Center Archives, Wheaton College, Wheaton, IL. BGC Archives CN 272, T5 Transcript - Page 2

CN 272, Tape 5. Oral history interview with Jennie Kingston Fitzwilliam by Paul Ericksen, October 31, 1985.

ERICKSEN: This is an interview with Jennie Kingston Fitzwilliam by Paul Ericksen for the Missionary Sources Collection of Wheaton College. This interview took place in the offices of the Billy Graham Center Archives on October 31, 1985 at 3:30 pm. Well, the first thing I=d like to do is pick up a few details - dates and what not that we seemed to have skipped over in our previous interviews. First thing, can you tell me the years that you were at Moody?

FITZWILLIAM: Let=s see, from 20...22...22 fall of >22 to the fal...till Christmas at...of >25.

ERICKSEN: And in what year did you apply to CIM [China Inland Mission]?

FITZWILLIAM: I=d say probably 1924.

ERICKSEN: Okay.

FITZWILLIAM: I= not totally in my Moody time. I just don=t have the exact....

ERICKSEN: Yeah. Do you remember when you traveled to China?

FITZWILLIAM: Yes, I...I arrived there on October 18, 1926.

ERICKSEN: All right. And when were you evacuated to Shanghai?

FITZWILLIAM: You mean in that first year?

ERICKSEN: Yes, from when you were in language school.

FITZWILLIAM: Goodness. I couldn=t remember that.

ERICKSEN: I don=t need a day....

FITZWILLIAM: I...I think it was...we were there in Yang...Yangzhou the wintertime and it was sort of toward the spring. That is as near as I can remember.

ERICKSEN: So would it be 1927?

FITZWILLIAM: It=d be 1927, yeah.

ERICKSEN: And then, how long were you in Shanghai?

FITZWILLIAM: Well, let=s see. We finished out our...my first year in China. My husband came out two weeks later and we were allowed to be married on my first year in China [anniversary]; that was October 18, 1927. Yeah, >27

ERICKSEN: So you had been in Shanghai about half a year?

FITZWILLIAM: Yes. I think we left...stayed there probably about a half a year

ERICKSEN: So then you were designated shortly after you were....

FITZWILLIAM: Maybe it was a year, because we finished our first language exam. And I think...I=m kind of hazy [laughs].

ERICKSEN: Then you were designated shortly after you were...

FITZWILLIAM: Yes, we were designated

ERICKSEN: ...right around the time you were married?

FITZWILLIAM: Yes

ERICKSEN: Okay. And hat was the name of the village you were stationed in while you were working with the Kachin?

FITZWILLIAM: Longchiu

ERICKSEN: All right. Now we=re going to skip to after you got back to the United States. After you had been at the CIM youth hostel in Philadelphia, when did you return...when did you come to Wheaton?

FITZWILLIAM: Let=s see. I think I was there about a year. I think we had the hostel about a year and then the parents came home. I think I came...I think we came here [Wheaton] to be here for the fall...the September opening of school that...the next year. When would that be? Let=s see.

ERICKSEN: You were repatriated in 1943.

FITZWILLIAM: 1943. And I think we were in Shangh...Philadelphia probably the whole of 1944. And I think we came out to Wheaton in the fall of 1945.

ERICKSEN: Okay.

FITZWILLIAM: Maybe it was.... >44? When was peace declared?

ERICKSEN: 1945.

FITZWILLIAM: I know we got here for the fall...the fall semester because Jack had a [unclear] school.

ERICKSEN: Let=s go into a couple of other things. Maybe we can back up then and....

FITZWILLIAM: Uh-huh.

ERICKSEN: When did you become the Dean of Women at the [Philadelphia] Bible...Bible Institute?

FITZWILLIAM: Let=s see. I was there 1952 to 1957.

ERICKSEN: Oh. That doesn=t help. I mean, it helps, but I was thinking it was in the late forties.

FITZWILLIAM: No.

ERICKSEN: Okay. When

FITZWILLIAM: It wasn=t until...

ERICKSEN: ...when....

FITZWILLIAM: ...Jack had graduated.

ERICKSEN: Yeah. When did you reapply to the mission?

FITZWILLIAM: Let=s see. [Pauses] 1950 I did deputation work so it must have been late 1949

ERICKSEN: Okay. [Pauses]

FITZWILLIAM: Or 1948, like that. Jack graduated [from college] in 1951 and I was away [pauses] I was away for his senior year, so...doing deputation work...

ERICKSEN: Uh huh.

FITZWILLIAM: ...so it must have been...it must have been late >49 or early >50.

ERICKSEN: Okay. Where were you working while you were here in Wheaton during that period?

FITZWILLIAM: At Wheaton College in the accounting department.

ERICKSEN: Okay. Well, maybe I can check with them and find out when....

FITZWILLIAM: Yeah. [Unclear] I was...I was away for that year and then I came...as soon as I couldn=t go back to China so I came back to Wheaton College again. Then I was away for Philadelphia and after I had been there for five years I came back to Wheaton College. I always worked in the accounting department.

ERICKSEN: About the period of deputation, what was involved in that?

FITZWILLIAM: Well, I traveled around in all of the Midwest section to conferences and...and just visiting churches

ERICKSEN: Had...did you have to do another orientation session?

FITZWILLIAM: No, no, but the mission wanted me to do...to do deputation work for that year before I...well, China was so unsettled they didn=t know whether we could...whether I could go or whether I couldn=t go, so they wanted me to do deputation work for a year until it was a little more clear...

ERICKSEN: Yeah.

FITZWILLIAM: ...what was going to happen. And then when China definitely closed, I went back to Wheaton College.

ERICKSEN: So, did you resign from the mission at any point...

FITZWILLIAM: Well, I don=t think...

ERICKSEN: ...that you needed to officially reapply?

FITZWILLIAM: ...I officially resigned. No, I didn=t need to reapply.

ERICKSEN: Oh.

FITZWILLIAM: I was always more or less....

ERICKSEN: Like reactivating?

FITZWILLIAM: Yeah.

ERICKSEN: Okay. Now going to the time when you were at Chefoo School, how long were you under house arrest?

FITZWILLIAM: I think it was about a year. Let=s see, war was declared in...

ERICKSEN: December 7, 1941 [The actual declaration of war was December 8, 1941].

FITZWILLIAM: ...1941. I think we were about...well, maybe it was nine or ten months, something like that.

ERICKSEN: Do you remember when you were transferred to Temple Hill?

FITZWILLIAM: I don=t remember the date. I=m...I=m not sure I have anything at home that would tell me that.

ERICKSEN: Okay. So that would...let=s see, that would put you leaving Chefoo School somewhere late summer - August maybe, or September - somewhere between September and December? That would be about nine months to a year.

FITZWILLIAM: Yeah.

ERICKSEN: How long were you at Temple Hill? Do you recall that?

FITZWILLIAM: Well, I just don=t recall just how many...how long it was. It was... As I look back on it, it seems like it might be a year [laughs], but....

ERICKSEN: Well, you were repatriated in 1943.

FITZWILLIAM: In 1943. We were months getting home though.

ERICKSEN: Uh huh.

FITZWILLIAM: It=s a long ocean voyage. I think we were on the boat several months. We were...we came all the way around up to the east coast of India, then all the way down the tip of Africa and up the coast of South America. So, it was a long journey.

ERICKSEN: Do you remember when you left Weihsien?

FITZWILLIAM: I don=t remember the date, no.

ERICKSEN: Okay. All right.

FITZWILLIAM: I am not very strong on dates [laughs].

ERICKSEN: Well, it was a long time ago. Most of my questions now are about the time from the beginning of your house arrest...

FITZWILLIAM: Uh huh.

ERICKSEN: ...through your time at Weihsien. Do you remember what activities the Japanese were involved in the area around the school prior to war being declared?

FITZWILLIAM: Well, of course, they were...they were occupying all that section of China and they didn=t particularly bother us until war was declared.

ERICKSEN: Uh huh.

FITZWILLIAM: Then they came right in and put guards at the gates. But they were just holding the territory as far as I remember.

ERICKSEN: Did you have contact with them prior to war being declared?

FITZWILLIAM: No, not that I remember ever at all.

ERICKSEN: You mentioned the guards were suddenly posted at the gates. Were there any other ways that your life at the school changed?

FITZWILLIAM: Well, of course, we weren=t allowed out. We used to go...well, for a while we were under house arrest. We could go out for special things with an A on our (an A for American, a B for British).... [They had to wear an A or a B on an armband.] No, I believe that was before the house...before we were under house arrest. I think before war was declared, since we were in more or less enemy occupied territory, I don=t think we could go out after we were under house arrest. I=m sure we couldn=t. Because the only way we could get food is that the Chinese came in. They allowed Chinese vendors to come in. Before that we had an A armband and we could go around through the...the town with that on. And a B was for the British. But we were under arrest . They didn=t particularly bother us. Well, they used to come in...in to this...I was in the prep school [with the] young children. They used to come in and play the piano with one finger and just to strut around to show that they were above us, but they didn=t particularly bother...particularly bother us.

ERICKSEN: Did they treat either the Americans or the British differently?

FITZWILLIAM: No, I don=t think so, not that I know of.

ERICKSEN: Uh huh.

FITZWILLIAM: But I was reading in a...a...the last OMF [Overseas Missionary Fellowship, the new name China Inland Mission changed to after leaving China] Asia Millions [OMF=s monthly magazine]. There is an article in it about...by the Taylors - Mary (James Taylor=s sister) and James Taylor - on the internment camp experience and they...they mentioned how [pauses] friendly the guards were to our...to our kids. And of course, that was a great...that was a great fear in our hearts that the kids would get with this...the youngsters would get a permanent injury with being terrified or something, that would happen, but they are no unpleasant memories of the time we were in Che..were in...either in our own camp or over in Temple Hill. And the guards were very friendly with the big boys. You=d see them down at the gate talking to the guards and they would show them their guns and how they worked and that sort of thing. One of those articles mentions that the...the...that one of their best friends was Mr. Kazaka who was the head of the...in charge of our camp. And this article told about how one day he was talking to the boys and he pulled out a New Testament in Japanese and said AI=m a Christian.@ Which we felt that he was because he was so...he could have been so overbearing and I think that was just the Lord=s provision in answer to the desperate prayers of those parents.

ERICKSEN: Was there any thought given to moving the school?

FITZWILLIAM: Oh, yes. Just before war was declared we were going everywhere. One day

we were going to Canada, the next day we were going to some place in England and the next day we were going to America. We were even going to Madagascar once. [Laughs] So that....

ERICKSEN: Any reason none of that happened?

FITZWILLIAM: Well, it just didn=t get around to...they never...it never materialized. Why, I don=t know. But we were always warned to be packed up and be ready to go. I suppose there wasn=t...they hadn=t been able to make arrangements for them to....because they had every intention to get the children out.

ERICKSEN: Could you tell me what the facilities at the school were like? Can you describe the grounds?

FITZWILLIAM: You mean the compound where the school...? Well, it=s a very lovely compound. There=s nothing elaborate about it but it was right on the beach. And the buildings were...some of them were old style, the Boy=s School was an old building and the Prep School where the young children were was a newer modern building, and the Girl=s School was an older building. They were the original buildings. And they had a big playing field and a big...the playground for the younger children. It was a very nice compound, not what you call luxury in any sense, but very comfortable.

ERICKSEN: Was it walled?

FITZWILLIAM: Yes, four walls. But then, of course, that=s typically Chinese.

ERICKSEN: And what responsibilities did you have at the school?

FITZWILLIAM: When I went there I didn=t intend to stay but then I couldn=t get back to my station because the war got hot and we weren=t able to travel to that area, back to Yunnan. So then they asked me if I would take care of the little children that came in. The six year olds were kept in a...they had a part of the prep school separate from the second, third and fourth grade students because, well, they just left home and they needed a little extra care and.... So I was Auntie Fitz to all of those kids. [Chuckles]. And that was really...it just the Lord=s provision for me because I came just right after my husband died. The bottom sort of fell out of my world and...and that was just what I needed, to take care of those kids because so many of them were homesick. And they were darling kids.

ERICKSEN: Were...was it boys and girls?

FITZWILLIAM: Boys and girls, yes. Then...then after that first year, then we didn=t get any more students, of course, after that, so we didn=t have any more Asmall end@ as we called it, so then they asked me to teach...I think I was in second grade, I...I was helping the second grade teacher, and I took duty for playgrounds and dining hall, that sort of thing, and getting children in and out of the wash rooms at night...

ERICKSEN: Uh huh.

FITZWILLIAM: ...prayers and that sort of thing.

ERICKSEN: Were there ever any cases where kids just couldn=t...couldn=t cope with being homesick?

FITZWILLIAM: Well, when they first came...I remember one little boy, Paul [unclear], he was so homesick and he=d come...he=d keep coming along and come up to all the teachers and say, APlease help me pack my bag. I want to go home.@ And he was terribly homesick for about a couple of weeks. But then he got adjusted to it and he was one of the happiest youngsters there. But it=s ...it=s hard the first few weeks and they do get homesick. But they=re...they have a very happy...they had a very happy life and they were well taken care of and very much loved. All of the teachers, of course, were missionaries, had gone out to be missionaries. And the children...I remember when...when we...I remember we came back from our furlough, we took Jack up there for his...to enter school. And I was sick and I had dysentery for months. When I was in the hospital, my husband went over to Yunnan first, so I came back down to Yunnan with the Christmas party and when they were getting ready to go back, I knew I wasn=t going to see Jack for another three years. And it was pretty hard to put him on that train to go back. And I guess I was weeping and I remember Jack saying to me, AWell, what=s the matter, Mom? I=m not...I=m not sorry to go back.@ [Laughs] So they really had a happy life and.... [pauses] I know my son doesn=t regret at all that he=s a missionaries= child.

ERICKSEN: Do you remember the conditions when the house arrest was, whatever, enforced or started?

FITZWILLIAM: Yeah, we...we were...we hid all sorts of things up in the eaves up in the attic, things that we treasured and wanted to keep.

ERICKSEN: Like?

FITZWILLIAM: Of course we never got back. Well, personal things. I didn=t have much to hide because I came out from my station with just a suitcase expecting to stay just a few weeks. But the others, that was their home. I mean, that=s where they headquartered. So they had lots of things, like books and things, that they wanted to...didn=t want to lose. And we talked about hiding a radio but the people in the...the headmaster of the school [Pat Bruce] put his foot down on that. He thought it was too dangerous for the kids sake. And of course we wouldn=t want to do anything that would in any way endanger them.

ERICKSEN: Had you heard that war had been declared before....

FITZWILLIAM: We heard it on the radio that day, right away

ERICKSEN: What did you think was going to happen? Do you remember?

FITZWILLIAM: Well, we thought...we weren=t surprised. We expected it to happen. I don=t know why people at home didn=t expect it to happen. We weren=t...we weren=t a bit surprised.

ERICKSEN: Now with all these things that were hidden, did the Japanese come in then and find them?

FITZWILLIAM: Oh yes, we never saw those things again. [Chuckles] They took over the compound for their base. And even now some people have gone back to China on trips. They=ve been allowed to go certain places in Chefoo but never on that compound, because that=s a military base.

ERICKSEN: For the Chinese now.

FITZWILLIAM: Yes, for the Japanese. I mean for the Chinese. For the Japanese then, but now....

ERICKSEN: So when were you hiding things? When it was time to move to Temple Hill?

FITZWILLIAM: We heard that war had been declared and before the Japanese came in and...

ERICKSEN: Oh, okay.

FITZWILLIAM: ...told us we were prisoners we were scurrying around hiding these things.

ERICKSEN: Why were you moved to Temple Hill?

FITZWILLIAM: Because they wanted the school for their own military.

ERICKSEN: Was there any advantage to them in having it?

FITZWILLIAM: Oh yes. Oh yes. It was much more...the best...it was the best buildings and best compound in...in Chefoo. The Presbyterian mission compound was nice, but they just were private homes. This was a school for three or four hundred children and so there was...it was ideal for their use.

ERICKSEN: Uh huh. How were you transferred to Temple Hill?

FITZWILLIAM: We walked. They marched us over.

ERICKSEN: How far was it?

FITZWILLIAM: Oh, I suppose it=s probably a mile or two. Not a long journey, but...but.... We marched and when we went out the gates we sang, AGod Is Still On The Throne@ and other hymns.

ERICKSEN: How much were you allowed to take with you?

FITZWILLIAM: I don=t really remember that. I think we were allowed to take all of our clothes, and...I=m not sure abut...I think we were allowed to take school books, some things like that. And I...I don=t...I don=t recall that we were restricted in what we could take over, but it probably wasn=t very strong in my memory because I didn=t have much to take.

ERICKSEN: Yeah. What were the Temple Hill facilities like? You mentioned that there were some...?

FITZWILLIAM: Well, they were nice...they were private homes. And we were...I was in the...the house for the little children, first through fourth grade. And it were just an ordinary home. And the young...well, the boys, most of the boys slept on the floor in the attic. There was a great big attic. And the staff...well, they pushed...they put two couples in one...one room and they had a curtain between the two couples. And I was in a room with two other girls and it was just, well, not as big as this room. [The room the interview was taped in was 11 2 feet by 11 2 feet.] We had three small single beds and we could just get around the beds. That was all that was in the room, those three beds.

ERICKSEN: How many...?

FITZWILLIAM: It was very crowded.

ERICKSEN: How many of you were there that transferred from Chefoo to Temple Hill?

FITZWILLIAM: Well, I don=t...I...I hate to say a number because I am very hazy on how many it would be. But I would...I=d think it would be at least two hundred. The girls were put in one of the Temple Hill compounds and the Prep School was in another one and the Boys School [pauses] was on the same compound as the Prep School but in a separate house. And the girls were quite removed over into another Presbyterian compound.

ERICKSEN: Other than being more crowded were there any other differences between your living conditions at Chefoo and Temple Hill?

FITZWILLIAM: Well, we didn=t have anybody to...we didn=t have any servants or any help at all and we had all these children to cook for. We...and we didn=t have...all they gave us to cook with was coal dust, so we had to make that into...make it into balls.

ERICKSEN: Who did that?

FITZWILLIAM: Some of the...some of the bigger kids helped. And some of the men...some of the men teachers. It was really a big chore.

ERICKSEN: How would you make a ball of dust?

FITZWILLIAM: Well, you put water on it. And we...then after you get the fire going good, you could put that dust, put it on the fire and it would eventually burn out through, and...but it didn=t make a very hot fire. And it was pretty hard to cook for such a big crowd so one of the teachers invented a hot box with hay. We cooked these big cauldrons of porridge at night and put it in the hot box and by morning it would be cooked and hot. [Chuckles] So it wasn=t an easy time because we were so crowded and there was so much work to do. We had all the...all the work to take care of a crowd of children and there weren=t all that many teachers and....

ERICKSEN: Now did you just continue with your teaching responsibilities?

FITZWILLIAM: No, we didn=t...we didn=t have very much teaching. We did have some classes. But most of us were busy trying to get food cooked for the...we had teams that.... That=s what we did. We had teams and we rotated and when we weren=t in the kitchen squad, we were in doing something else. Laundry squad or the teaching squad or something like that. And we tried to keep the children=s class work up.

ERICKSEN: Who coordinated all of this?

FITZWILLIAM: Our headmaster was Mr. Bruce. And then...of course, each of the schools had a principal. Miss Carr, Ailsa Carr, was the principal of the prep school, Miss [E. M.] Broomhall of the girl=s school and Mr. Bruce of the boy=s school. And they...I suppose they coordinated it.

ERICKSEN: Uh huh. Were you treated any differently by the Japanese at Temple Hill than you had been at Chefoo.

FITZWILLIAM: Not particularly. They made us...they would come along twice a day, make us come out for roll call. They=d blow the whistle and we=d have to come out for roll call and we had to number off in...in Japanese. We had to learn to number in Japanese. All I remember is the first few...the first few numbers: ichi, ni.... It=s funny that I remember that. [Chuckles] Ichi, ni, san, shi. That was one, two, three, four. And that was just to show that they were boss. But they weren=t...they weren=t nasty...

ERICKSEN: Uh huh.

FITZWILLIAM: ...to us at all.

ERICKSEN: Uh huh. Why did they move you to Weihsien?

FITZWILLIAM: Well, they closed that...they closed that Chefoo internment entirely...

ERICKSEN: At Temple Hill.

FITZWILLIAM: ...and moved.... Yes, at Temple Hill. And the Americans, of course, moved out first because we were being repatriated. And then they moved the British in another two weeks. But we were moved first.

ERICKSEN: Did you have any idea ahead of time that you were going to be repatriated?

FITZWILLIAM: Oh yes, we knew we were going to be repatriated.

ERICKSEN: How had you found that out?

FITZWILLIAM: I think from the Japanese. They...we...they exchanged prisoners, you know, between the Japanese and Americans.

ERICKSEN: Uh huh.

FITZWILLIAM: They did a lot of investigating before they got the final list up. I know the FBI [Federal Bureau of Investigation] came to my home in Massachusetts and inquired about me and what I was, what my status was and if I really was who I was. They investigated everybody.

ERICKSEN: What do you think...what were they looking for?

FITZWILLIAM: I guess they wanted to be sure that they repatriated...

ERICKSEN: The right....

FITZWILLIAM: ...bonafide Americans [chuckles].

ERICKSEN: Could you describe your trip, your trip from Chefoo to Weihsien? How did you get to Weihsien?

FITZWILLIAM: Well, we...we got...we went by boat. I remember leaving Chefoo. Mr. Kazaka took us down to the boat.

ERICKSEN: That was the Japanese....

FITZWILLIAM: Yes. And he was the Japanese in charge. And the big boys got on one side of the boat as we were leaving and gave three cheers for Mr. Kazaka. They really liked him. He was really...really a friends to those boys. And I don=t remember much about.... I think it was just an ordinary coastal boat.

ERICKSEN: Uh huh.

FITZWILLIAM: Small. Not ocean going, of course. We had a....

ERICKSEN IN what port....

FITZWILLIAM: I don=t think it was a bad trip. I don=t remember being seasick or anything. Then we came down to Quingdao and up by train to Weihsien.

ERICKSEN: Were you under guard the whole time?

FITZWILLIAM: Oh yes. Yes, we were very much under guard. We weren=t allowed out of the train or....

ERICKSEN: How were you treated on the trip?

FITZWILLIAM: Not bad except that we were restricted, and accommodations were very, very poor. When we left Weihsien we went by train down to Shanghai. That was a fairly long trip. At least over one night, if not two. And it was just a very third class Chinese train. No place to sleep. I remember one of the boys slept up in the baggage rack and he fell out during the night. It was just...they were sleeping on the floor as dirty as it was. There was just no place for anybody to...to lie down, there was barely room to sit up. So that...it was not a pleasant trip by any means.

ERICKSEN: Had you heard anything about the internment camp [at Weihsien] before you got there?

FITZWILLIAM: That we were going to be interned?

ERICKSEN: Had you heard anything about Weihsien before you got there?

FITZWILLIAM: Oh, no, no. The Japanese told us that we didn=t need to worry to take bedding or food, utensils, eating things, that they would be provided, but then when we got down there, nothing was provided. But the people who were interned, especially...especially the American nuns were very...very kind to us. The priests were a mess but the nuns were very kind.

ERICKSEN: Was there anything in particular that,,,?

FITZWILLIAM: They got bedding for us and...well, not only they, but...but when...when you=re in a place like that, everyone tries to do what they can for the other person. Of course, we were all types of people in that camp. Some were very pa...very low caliber. But some of course were wonderful people. And they just took us in. But we managed to get word up to the school to be sure that they brought everything that they needed for the children.

ERICKSEN: [Words unclear] the British?

FITZWILLIAM: Yes, the British.

ERICKSEN: Now how many of you Americans were there?

FITZWILLIAM: I suppose there were about...oh, if I were guessing, I would guess about twenty-five or thirty.

ERICKSEN: And were all the Americans that had been at Chefoo repatriated at the same time?

FITZWILLIAM: Yes. Of course, a lot of the Americans had gone home. A lot of the ones that lived on the east coast [of China] that could get out.

ERICKSEN: Uh huh.

FITZWILLIAM: Not necessarily CIMers But of course we had a lot of other missions there.

ERICKSEN: Uh huh.

FITZWILLIAM: And a lot of them came home. And so we didn=t have as many Americans left as British were. And of course there weren=t as many Americans students. I remember when Jack...when we first went, Jack said to me, AMother, what would it cost to get to be a Britisher?@ [Laughs] Because the Americans were definitely in the minority.

ERICKSEN: You mentioned that the priests were a mess. What makes you say that?

FITZWILLIAM: The nuns...the nuns were really...they just...they just went out of their way to be nice to us and help us. The priests...the nuns did all their work for them, did their washing, did the...the...everybody was assigned certain jobs in the camp. The nuns did the work for the priests. The priests were...they...they were a real problem to us. They...they...they made friends with our girls, our big girls and some of the parents were terribly nerv...worried about their contacts with them. They weren=t a nice group at all. I have very happy memories of the nuns.

ERICKSEN: Was there any sort of joint religious activity between all of the Christians in the camp?

FITZWILLIAM: We had...of course, we were only in Weihsien for...for about ten days. I think...

ERICKSEN: Uh huh.

FITZWILLIAM: ...on our way down. So I don=t...I don=t recall church services, but I=m sure that the...I=m sure that the...the school had church services. Because they had school and [pauses] you can=t imagine the CIM [chuckles] having a school for children and not a service. I don=t think that the Japanese interfered in any way with that, with...

ERICKSEN: I just wondered...

FITZWILLIAM: The worship.

ERICKSEN: ...whether the Protestants and the Catholics or...?

FITZWILLIAM: Oh. That I...that I don=t know, because we weren=t there...

ERICKSEN: Okay.

FITZWILLIAM: ...long enough to know. But I know that the Catholic priests were a real problem to a lot of our parents of the bigger girls.

ERICKSEN: You mentioned that other people were of a low caliber. Who did you have in mind?

FITZWILLIAM: Well there were some. You know you always find in a eastern...a Third World country Westerners...Westerners that are out hoboing. And there were some really queer.... Coming home on the boat, the repatriation [some words unclear].

ERICKSEN: Like? Anyone...anyone you remember particularly. Not names, but....

FITZWILLIAM: No. I don=t...I don=t remember their names but I know there was a lot of carrying on [pauses] and things that we didn=t enter into.

ERICKSEN: Uh huh. Do you remember anything about the black market at the camp? Did you see anything of a black market?

FITZWILLIAM: Well, of course, when we were in Chefoo...I wouldn=t say...I guess I wouldn=t call it a black market. The Japanese let the Chefoo...let the vendors come in and sell us stuff. Then when they put us in Weihsien, they didn=t let them...didn=t let them come in as much there, although they did. We...we bought our supplies. The Japanese didn=t give us food until we got to Weihsien. But in Weihsien they didn=t allow any vendors in. The only one I ever heard of getting in was the man that came in to clean out the toilet places.

ERICKSEN: So you didn=t see a black market...

FITZWILLIAM: No.

ERICKSEN: ...at Weihsien? What was...what was the mood of the people who weren=t being repatriated about those who were? Were they...how did they feel about it?

FITZWILLIAM: Well, I think they wished they were...wished they were in the group but I don=t remember that there were any feelings expressed.

ERICKSEN: Uh huh.

FITZWILLIAM: Everyone regret....that they=d like to go but I don=t think they resented that we went.

ERICKSEN: Did you in the...as you said, you were there quite a short time. Did you have any work assignments...

FITZWILLIAM: In Weihsien?

ERICKSEN: ...while you were there?

FITZWILLIAM: Yes. I can=t remember now what we had to do. We to help with the washing, the dis...not the dishes, but the pots and pans that we...that they cooked in, cleaning. I remember cleaning the washroom. But it such a short time that I don=t really remember.

ERICKSEN: Yeah.

FITZWILLIAM: Or recall it very vividly.

ERICKSEN: Who all was at the camp?

FITZWILLIAM: In Weihsien?

ERICKSEN: Uh huh.

FITZWILLIAM: Well, it was just such a conglomeration of everyone, you know. Lawyers and doctors and teachers and hobos and.... [Pauses] >Cause all the Americans that were in that eastern part of the...in that particular area of China were thrown into that same camp.

ERICKSEN: Uh huh. Okay. [Pauses] How did everybody get along? I mean, it wasn=t quite like a CIM conference.

FITZWILLIAM: Well, of course we weren=t in Weihsien long enough to make a...to make much impression on us. I...I don=t know...I never heard that there was any problem with getting along.

ERICKSEN: Uh huh.

FITZWILLIAM: There was pretty strict organization in the camp...

ERICKSEN: What was that like?

FITZWILLIAM: ...by the campers themselves.

ERICKSEN: Uh huh. What was that like?

FITZWILLIAM: Well, they...they assigned everybody for a job. And they had a police force and they had, you know, as far as it was possible to do, they ran an orderly camp and....

ERICKSEN: It was the camp...it was the internees themselves who ran it?

FITZWILLIAM: Yes, of course, the Japanese didn=t care what happened to us. But the internees organized. I don=t know who decided who would be boss. I don=t know...that was all decided before we got there.

ERICKSEN: Do you remember what your living quarters were like?

FITZWILLIAM: Oh, we were in a big...we were in a dormitory. And as I remember we just had...I think we just slept on the floor in that big dormitory. I don=t...I don=t remember it being very bad, but I don=t remember it being very good.

ERICKSEN: Uh huh. What about the food? What was that like?

FITZWILLIAM: Oh, it was terrible. You know, we=d had pretty good food up in Chefoo because we cooked it ourselves, but that was awful. [Pauses] Things were wormy and the rice was bad and there wasn=t ever enough of it and....

ERICKSEN: Were there medical provisions for the internees?

FITZWILLIAM: Just as the internees themselves [arranged]. We had a hos...they had a hospital and doctors and nurses

ERICKSEN: Where did the medication come from?

FITZWILLIAM: That I don=t know. I don=t know whether the Japanese provided it or not.

ERICKSEN: Uh huh.

FITZWILLIAM: Whether there was a supply brought in. But I do remember one of our...one of our boys was sick and in the hospital for a couple of days while we were there.

ERICKSEN: So in addition to those of you who had come from Chefoo, where there other Americans who were at Weihsien who were also repatriated with you?

FITZWILLIAM: Oh, yes, I think so.

ERICKSEN: How many of you...

FITZWILLIAM: I know when we left Weihsien

ERICKSEN: ...left Weihsien?

FITZWILLIAM: ...for Shanghai, we had a whole...we had a whole train, special train.

ERICKSEN: Uh huh.

FITZWILLIAM: They called it a special train. [Chuckles]. Not a luxury liner by any means. But all of the Americans that were...I don=t know if all the Americans got out or not. I don=t know.

ERICKSEN: [Pauses] Did you hear from anybody who was left behind in the camp, any of the CIM missionaries, after you were repatriated?

FITZWILLIAM: No, they weren=t allowed to write or anything.

ERICKSEN: Now how did...what...what is...was there any...did you get any mail any time during the time when you were either under house arrest or at Temple Hill or at Weihsien?

FITZWILLIAM: No. Well, the...the only...the only way we got mail was, there was a German missionary and he would smuggle little letters out from the children who had written to their parents and from the parents into the children, but I don=t think anybody but the children got word out, because it was too big a risk. I mean he risked his life.

ERICKSEN: Now how was he able to go back and forth?

FITZWILLIAM: Because he was a German [citizen of a country allied to Japan during the Second World War].

ERICKSEN: Oh, I see.

FITZWILLIAM: He was...he was also a dentist and he used to come in and do dental work for the children. And it=s a case of his Christian love...

ERICKSEN: uh huh.

FITZWILLIAM: ...transcending his love for his country.

ERICKSEN: So you don=t know if there were any other Americans left behind?

FITZWILLIAM: I don=t know. I don=t remember that there was...

ERICKSEN: Uh huh.

FITZWILLIAM: ...but there could have been. I know they investigated everyone they let out, so....

ERICKSEN: Do you know anyone, Britishers, who were at the camp who are still living?

FITZWILLIAM: Oh, yeah. All of the British CIMers were there. This last Millions...

ERICKSEN: I=ll have to check that.

FITZWILLIAM: Asia Millions, had a...two very good articles by the Taylors.

ERICKSEN: Uh huh. Do you remember how the rest of the camp thought about the

missionaries?

FITZWILLIAM: You mean the Weihsien camp?

ERICKSEN: Yeah,

FITZWILLIAM: I don=t know. See, we...we didn=t...we weren=t there long enough to cause any much of a ruckus.

ERICKSEN: Un huh.

FITZWILLIAM: I don=t know. But I...I would be surprised...I mean, under those circumstances, people=s...unless you=re...they=re really a low grade person, people respond to the need. And I don=t...I have never heard of any...

ERICKSEN: Uh huh.

FITZWILLIAM: ...quarrels in the camp. I wouldn=t say that there wasn=t any, but....

ERICKSEN: Did you meet Eric Liddell when you were there? Do you remember...?

FITZWILLIAM: Eric Liddell?

ERICKSEN: Uh huh.

FITZWILLIAM: No, I don=t...I don=t remember meeting him. He was there. And he was a...a great blessing to the Britishers when they came down. He...he...he taught them and coached them on sports and so forth and he was really a great blessing to the...especially to the older boys. Well, all of them. He was very much loved by all of the kids.

ERICKSEN: Do you recall any, well I guess what you would say Acolorful@ figures at the camp, any...any people in particular that stand out?

FITZWILLIAM: No I don=t. I think we were so concerned about our own needs and problems [chuckles].

ERICKSEN: Do you remember anything else that comes to mind when you think of your experience at...at that camp?

FITZWILLIAM: No, I [pauses] remember taking a very much treasured shower once. You couldn=t have a shower every time you wanted one. And that they had fixed up showers but you...I think you were assigned a certain time. I remember the food line was pretty awful. But I don=t...don=t remember too much about....

ERICKSEN: What was the weather like when you were there?

FITZWILLIAM: Well, I think it was fall, toward the end of the summer. I don=t remember that it was particularly hot. [Pauses] Chefoo was hot but we were there in the summertime. But at Weihsien I think it was toward the end of the summer, fall. I don=t remember the...the heat doesn=t stand out as a...

ERICKSEN: Uh huh.

FITZWILLIAM: ...memory.

ERICKSEN: I=ve got a map here. I don=t know if you have read this book, Shantung Compound? Have you read it.

FITZWILLIAM: No.

ERICKSEN: It=s about life at Weihsien. There=s a map...there=s a drawing in here of the compound. I wonder if you can...do you remember where...can you find on here where you were...where you stayed?

FITZWILLIAM: I think we were probably in some of these little houses here.

ERICKSEN: Uh huh.

FITZWILLIAM: But I...I really don=t...

ERICKSEN: Don=t remember.

FITZWILLIAM: ...remember the...the layout of the camp so much.

ERICKSEN: Uh huh.

FITZWILLIAM: We fortunately were not there long.

ERICKSEN: Yeah. Thinking about the whole time that you were under house arrest and bring interned, what was the worst thing about the internment.

FITZWILLIAM: Well, I think the worst thing was the uncertainty of the first days, not knowing just what would happen. We had a whole school of...of teenage girls and teenage boys and little children and war breaking out, being in enemy territory, and not knowing where your food is going to come from. It was that uncertainty. As the days went on and the Lord provided miraculously for us, I don=t remember except for the first part of it, the uncertainty of the first days...I don=t remember being particularly anxious, any anxiety.

ERICKSEN: Do you remember any hidden, oh, unexpected blessings or surprises during your internment?

FITZWILLIAM: No. I remember many of the church services that were especially blessed. I mean, we had our own...of course, in Chefoo we had our own services. But I don=t remember anything outstanding other than that the Lord was really very, very close and very precious.

ERICKSEN: What can you tell me about Martha Phillips?

FITZWILLIAM: She taught in the girls’ school. I don=t really...I don=t know her awfully well. I don=t even remember what she taught. I didn=t have the contact with the girls school that I had with the boys school because Jack was in the boys school and I worked in the prep school. I knew her of course...

ERICKSEN: Uh huh.

FITZWILLIAM: ...but I didn=t know her real well. You mean about what she is doing now or...?

ERICKSEN: No, what she was doing then. Your recollections of her.

FITZWILLIAM: No, I don=t. I really don=t. I remember coming home in the boat, but just sort of vaguely. We were responsible for the...for a great...for a number of the children. I think she was responsible for some of the older girls so we didn=t...

ERICKSEN: Uh huh.

FITZWILLIAM: ...have too much contact. I just knew her as another missionary and a friend, but I never knew her very closely.

ERICKSEN: You mentioned in one of our earlier interviews that you considered in your retirement moving down to North Carolina with Ruth Thomas.

FITZWILLIAM: Yes.

ERICKSEN: Now, where does she...where does this Ruth Thomas live?

FITZWILLIAM: Well, she lived in...in Waynesville, North Carolina then. I was down there for nine months. And then I came back to Wheaton because my son didn=t...they didn=t go...my...they didn=t go back to the mission field.

ERICKSEN: Uh huh.

FITZWILLIAM: And I thought...they thought they were go back but then as things developed they didn=t go back and so that=s why I came back to Wheaton.

ERICKSEN: Now, they were CIM missionaries too?

FITZWILLIAM: No. They were with Far Eastern Gospel Crusade. Jack taught in the school in Japan and then he was transferred to the school in the Philippines. During his first furlough he got his masters in school business administration, so they asked him to go to the Philippines to Faith Academy.

ERICKSEN: Do you remember what the attitude of the missionaries was during World War II about the future of the Chinese church and the tribal churches?

FITZWILLIAM: Well, I think there was a lot of...there was confidence but also concern as to what...what would happen to the church. I don=t think anyone in their wildest and most ardent faith ever thought it would mature...things would happen like did happen, that there would be such a real turning to the Lord in China that there has been since the missionaries had to withdraw. I don=t think that in our wildest thoughts we ever anticipated there would be such a.....

ERICKSEN: Why do you think that was?

FITZWILLIAM: Well....

ERICKSEN: That missionaries had...?

FITZWILLIAM: I think...I think...now, as far as the Lisu was concerned I never had any worry in the world that they wouldn=t...I never had any worry in the world that they wouldn=t stand true.

ERICKSEN: uh huh.

FITZWILLIAM: But I...I...I was concerned about what was going to happen to them and...and how they would stand in the persecution, but I knew that they really...they really knew the Lord. I=ve often thought, well, how would I...how would I have stood in those.... I think the Lord gives special grace when you face something like that when you...when you look at it and you think, AWell, that might happen to me. Would I be able to stand true?@ I think the Lord give that grace when the time comes. And I remember once sitting in a church service and somebody ... somebody got up and gave the verse ASalvation is of the Lord.@ And I remember that just struck hold of my heart. AWhy that=s true. Salvation is of the Lord. That=s His responsibility to take care of those Lisu and give them the grace to stand,@ and He did. They suffered terrible persecution, the Lisu did. [Pauses] But they stood true. Of course, the Chinese church was very much weeded out but those that really knew the Lord stood the test.

ERICKSEN: The questions that I =ve got left deal a little bit more of what it was like being a woman missionary. Were there things that women were not allowed to do in the mission?

FITZWILLIAM: You mean, in the CIM?

ERICKSEN: Yes.

FITZWILLIAM: Well, in those days women didn=t have much part in the CIM. They do much

more now. But I don=t think there was as far as teaching and that sort of thing, there wasn=t any restrictions. They didn=t have positions of...of authority, like superintendent and that. And of course, working among the tribal people, there weren=t any restrictions at all as far as that=s concerned. Everybody was busy And there was more work than you could do, so.....

ERICKSEN: Was there any resentment on the part of women at all about not having administrative positions?

FITZWILLIAM: I don=t....

ERICKSEN: Do you recall?

FITZWILLIAM: ...think so. I don=t ever recall. The CIM in those days was very much a British mission.

ERICKSEN: Uh-huh.

FITZWILLIAM: And we accepted it as...as a British mission. We knew that before we went out. But I don=t recall that it ever caused any resentment. Of course, we worked in such an isolated part of China that....

ERICKSEN: What about differences between single and women...married women? Would...did the mission treat them differently in any way?

FITZWILLIAM: No, I don=t think so. Of course married women much more tied down than single women. When it comes right down to it, the single women did a [pauses] a great job. I mean, they...they did....they worked...they worked without any hindrances as ties of family and that sort of thing which married women of course had to face. But I am sure the Lord rewarded the single women for the things that they didn=t have, because they really had a ministry. But married women...the married women had a ministry that the single women didn=t have.

ERICKSEN: Do you remember any single missionaries, men or women, who begrudged the fact?

FITZWILLIAM: I don=t remember any. No, I...I don=t recall any. Of course we didn=t work on a typical mission station. We were....

ERICKSEN: Yeah. Okay.

FITZWILLIAM: Uh huh.

ERICKSEN: I=m all done. Thanks.

FITZWILLIAM: Okay. END OF TAPE