Wednesday Volume 537 14 December 2011 No. 241

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 14 December 2011

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2011 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 773 14 DECEMBER 2011 774

Mark Pawsey: It is the small businesses that often House of Commons have the greatest difficulty in accessing Government contracts, and that is because of a regulation from the Wednesday 14 December 2011 European Union. Will the Minister tell us what steps he is taking to reform EU regulations to make it easier to secure contracts with Government both at a national The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock and local level?

Mr Maude: The first thing that we are doing is trying PRAYERS to ensure that the way in which we implement the European directives is sensible and not overly bureaucratic [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] and legalistic, which it usually is at the moment. The European Commission is introducing proposals to streamline and simplify the procurement directives, which we welcome. I was talking to Commissioner Barnier in Oral Answers to Questions Brussels two or three weeks ago, and he was very open to that happening.

Mr Spencer: Fresh Opportunities is a company in my CABINET OFFICE constituency that supplies water drinkers to jobcentres. Sadly, though, it lost the contract. That was not because The Minister for the Cabinet Office was asked— it was inefficient or too expensive but because it could not deliver a service on a large enough scale. What can Government Procurement the Minister do to enable SMEs, which cannot operate on a national scale, to be able to deal with Government 1. Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): What bodies? assessment he has made of the potential effects of planned changes to Government procurement on UK Mr Maude: We have two objectives here. We want to businesses bidding for contracts. [86418] buy as efficiently as we can, which, in many cases, means using the scale of Government to aggregate 6. Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): What assessment he volume and drive down prices. In many areas of has made of the potential effects of planned changes to procurement of commodities, goods and services, we Government procurement on UK businesses bidding are able to get the price advantages of aggregation but, for contracts. [86424] none the less, involve SMEs much more in the process. We have a commitment and an aspiration to increase 7. Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): What the value of SME business to 25% of the total. assessment he has made of the potential effects of planned changes to Government procurement on UK Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): The businesses bidding for contracts. [86425] Minister will be aware that public procurement guidelines in Northern Ireland are set by EU directives and UK The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster regulations. Will the Minister, therefore, give a commitment General (Mr Francis Maude): On 21 November, I to work alongside the Northern Ireland Executive and announced a package of measures to transform how not to turn his back on Europe in negotiations to tackle the Government buy. We want to save money for the the issues of over-complexity, cost and red tape, as taxpayer and for suppliers and to make it easier for those are issues that are affecting local business? small and medium-sized enterprises and voluntary organisations to bid successfully. That is why we have Mr Maude: As I said, we are actively engaged with announced a pipeline of £50 billion-worth of future the European Commission in supporting the good work business opportunities. We will make it 40% quicker to that it is undertaking to streamline procurement processes, do business with Government and we will, in future, but we need to ensure—and I hope that the hon. Lady engage proactively with current and future suppliers to will do this—that the Administration in Northern Ireland discuss upcoming procurement opportunities. do not over implement the directives because we are finding that central Government and the wider public Alec Shelbrooke: Will my right hon. Friend describe sector in Great Britain tend to do that. to the SMEs in my constituency of Elmet and Rothwell where they should go if they have any problems or Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): Notwithstanding issues with Government procurement? what the Minister said about the economies of scale, the Federation of Small Businesses has reported an increased Mr Maude: If there are problems not only in how tendency for public sector contracts to be aggregated central Government procure but across the wider public into much larger ones, thereby penalising smaller businesses. sector, I hope that my hon. Friend’s constituents will What has the Minister got to say to those small businesses? make contact with my Department through the helpline that we have set up specifically for the purpose. If they Mr Maude: There is a whole range of procurement highlight how procurements are being done that entrench opportunities that are particularly suitable for smaller the old, inefficient and anti-enterprise way of doing businesses. Even when we aggregate, that does not things, we can then intervene proactively, as we have exclude small businesses. For example, we have just let done on a number of occasions, to make improvements. the contracts for travel for the whole of Government 775 Oral Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 776 and one of the successful two bidders is a very small the community grants system. We can be said to be business, which, as a result of winning that contract, delivering not on the cheap but on the expensive in the will become a much bigger one. hon. Gentleman’s constituency.

Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab): This year, 40,000 Can my right hon. Friend include in that assessment the households were made homeless. As we approach Christmas ability of charities and small organisations, mutuals and with today’s rise in unemployment, Shelter estimates and so on to bid for public sector contracts as providers that every two minutes someone else faces losing their of public services? May I commend the report that the home. Now we hear that Government cuts to the big Select Committee on Public Administration has published society have resulted in homeless charities facing 25% today on the big society, which recommends that the reductions in their funding. Will the Minister at least Government extend the eligibility for the VAT refund immediately agree to restore the social exclusion taskforce, scheme, which currently applies to public sector bodies, which the Government shamelessly abolished when they to charities that deliver public services under contract entered the Cabinet Office, so that in the future the with a public sector organisation? homeless and others who suffer from social exclusion will at least have a voice when he and his colleagues Mr Maude: I shall ensure that my right hon. Friend make such hard-hearted decisions? the Chancellor takes note of my hon. Friend’s suggestion. We want to make it easier for small voluntary organisations Mr Letwin: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman and mutuals to bid successfully. One thing that we aim misunderstands the changes in the machinery of to do is to get contracts chunked up into smaller lots. government that have taken place under this Government. We have much bigger contracts, generally, than France It is perfectly true that the social exclusion taskforce has or Germany would have in equivalent circumstances, been abolished, and the reason for that is that we have which tends to militate and be biased against the interests set up instead a fully fledged first-rank Cabinet committee of smaller businesses and voluntary and charitable on social justice— organisations. Jon Trickett: It meets in secret. Social Exclusion Mr Letwin: It is not in the least secret, as the hon. 3. Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): What Gentleman mutters from a sedentary position, in the assessment his Department has made of the role of the sense that it will produce a social justice strategy that he big society initiative in tackling social exclusion. will be able to read along with the rest of the House. I [86421] think he will find that we are putting absolutely at the centre of our activities the fostering of the big society in The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Mr Oliver order to help, among other things, those who are homeless. Letwin): The big society is all about building social That is also one of the reasons why we recently issued capital, which is key to solving social exclusion. There our housing strategy, which does more than the hon. are four places where most of us build the relationships Gentleman and his colleagues did in many years to try that sustain us: in the family, in school, in our communities to improve housing in this country. and at work. We are taking action to build social capital Government Documents (Disposal) in all of those through a focus on the 120,000 most troubled families, through competition and raising standards in schools, through community organisers and the 4. Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): Whether his community first initiative in communities and through Department has considered altering its guidance on the the Work programme, the rehabilitation revolution and disposal of official Government documents. [86422] the drug and alcohol recovery programme. The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster Jonathan Ashworth: I thank the Minister for that General (Mr Francis Maude): No. answer and I know that he is sincere in wanting to see civic society flourish, as am I. In Leicester, many Jim McGovern: According to Cabinet Office guidance, organisations who work with vulnerable people at risk what would be the recourse if a civil servant in the of social exclusion, such as the Shama women’s centre Minister’s Department breached the Data Protection or those at the Saffron Lane resource centre, increasingly Act? find that their grants and pots of money are being cut. Does the Minister think he will be able to create the big Mr Maude: I can provide a detailed answer to the society on the cheap? hon. Gentleman if he requires. If he is concerned about classified Government documents going amiss, I suggest Mr Letwin: As I said the previous time the hon. he raises the matter with his right hon. Friend the Gentleman asked such a question, he is extraordinarily shadow Health Secretary, who in 2009 had to apologise assiduous in this area. I have done some further research for leaving a briefcase full of classified Government on where he has been recently and the Saffron Lane documents on a train. centre that he describes is, I am glad to say, one area where the community organisers to which I referred will Big Society Capital be located. While I am at it, it is clear that the hon. Gentleman drags the Government with him every time 5. Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): What recent he goes anywhere. He also visited the Eyres Monsell progress he has made in establishing Big Society centre and that is now receiving a £50,000 grant from Capital. [86423] 777 Oral Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 778

The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick Mr Maude: I have certainly not set a target of 1 Hurd): Big Society Capital is all about trying to make it million, but it is perfectly feasible that 1 million public easier for social entrepreneurs to access capital. We sector workers will choose to take themselves out of the think that we are making good progress, moving swiftly public sector in order to deliver in employee-led through the Financial Services Authority authorisation organisations the services that they currently provide. and EU state-aid approval processes, and we are confident The number is growing, and, although we cannot make that Big Society Capital will be open for business by it happen, we are going to make it a great deal easier spring. In the meantime, the interim investment committee, and to support all those groups. The benefits are huge which made its first investment in July, will announce its in terms of productivity. Staff absence falls, staff turnover next investment shortly. falls and customer satisfaction rises very dramatically, so I hope that we have the hon. Gentleman’s enthusiastic Richard Fuller: I thank the Minister for his answer. support for this programme of mutualisation. My focus is on the voluntary organisations whose budgets are always tight, so will he advise me on how he can enhance their capacity to take advantage of the Government Contracts opportunities afforded by Big Society Capital?

Mr Hurd: My hon. Friend knows from his lengthy 9. Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con): How small experience in the area that we have fantastic social and medium-sized enterprises in Calder Valley constituency entrepreneurs in this country, and we want to make it can bid for central Government information and easier for them to access capital, but, as he points out, communications technology and facilities management some of them need more help to become more investment- contracts. [86428] ready. That is exactly why we have set up a £10 million investment and contract readiness fund—to provide grants for organisations that want to attract investment The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Mr Oliver but know they need more help to become more investment- Letwin): It is absolutely vital that small and medium-sized ready. enterprises should be able to bid for ICT and other contracts, and that is why the Minister for the Cabinet Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): Among Office said a moment or two ago that we have set an the Public Administration Committee’s many criticisms ambition for 25% of contracts to go to SMEs. We have in its report today, it rightly highlights that Ministers also simplified the contracting process, making it easier cannot expect the big society bank to provide the solution for SMEs to find out what the Government seek to to the funding crisis that their cuts are causing for purchase, and I recommend that the enterprises in my hundreds of charities. Given that the report goes on hon. Friend’s constituency look at the Contracts Finder effectively to accuse Ministers of being out of touch website, which I have been on myself, It is an absolutely and not providing effective leadership to tackle the admirable one-stop shop for finding out about Government problems that charities face, would not now be the contracts. perfect time for yet another one of the Prime Minister’s big society re-launches? Craig Whittaker: I thank the Minister for that reply. I Mr Hurd: I am not going to take any lectures on am not a cynical kind of guy, but I wonder whether he leadership and Big Society Capital from the Opposition, can give the House some examples of how the Government because they talked for 10 years about setting it up but are helping SMEs by awarding them contracts. did not actually do it. We are doing it because we want to make it easier for social entrepreneurs to access Mr Letwin: Yes, I can, and I refer again to something capital. It is on track, and we are very proud of it. that my right hon. Friend was saying. Recently, the Employee Mutuals Government’s very large domestic travel contract was let—the domestic side alone amounts to £1.1 billion a 8. Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): What steps year of travel—and one might have expected it to go to he is taking to encourage employee mutuals to develop a very large firm, but, because of the way in which my and run central Government services. [86427] right hon. Friend structured it, it went to Redfern Travel, a company with 33 employees. It is a small or, at The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster any rate and by anyone’s definition, only a medium-scale General (Mr Francis Maude): As we set out in the enterprise, and it was able to win the contract. The “Open Public Services” White Paper, we are committed managing director said: to an ambitious programme of mutualisation, allowing staff to break free of bureaucracy and to spin out from “The award of this contract…clearly demonstrates that…any SME can not only bid for major Government contracts, but also the public sector. To support that, we have put in place meet the challenging requirements”, the mutuals support programme, the mentoring of mutuals by groups such as John Lewis, the mutuals task force so I think that that is a very good test case. chaired by Professor Le Grand and the mutuals information service, and we are increasing the “right to provide” Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con) rose— scheme. Ian Murray: The Minister for the Cabinet Office Mr Speaker: Order. It is normally a great pleasure to expects there to be an extra 1 million workers in hear from the hon. Lady, but the Wirral is a little organisations taking over the running of public services distance away from Calder Valley, to which this question by 2015. Will he update the House on how many he exclusively relates. We will save her up for another expects to be doing so by the end of this financial year? occasion. 779 Oral Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 780

Public Sector Pensions schemes in place as early as possible, so that people know what their future holds and we can implement the 10. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What new schemes; so yes, we will be making further progress he has made in reaching agreement with trade announcements to the House before it rises. unions on the Government’s proposed reforms to public sector pensions. [86429] Voluntary Sector

The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster 11. Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): What steps he General (Mr Francis Maude): We have engaged in intensive is taking to support the voluntary sector. [86431] and frequent discussions with the trade unions. At their request, talks are continuing at scheme level in the four public sector pension schemes that are currently being The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick discussed, and we continue to make progress, I believe, Hurd): We are supporting the sector through this difficult in all four. We are determined that public sector pensions time by cutting red tape, investing in transition funds will remain among the very best available, but in order for infrastructure and front-line organisations, creating to make them sustainable and affordable for the long significant new opportunities for the sector to deliver term, reform is urgently needed. public services, and supporting new initiatives to encourage giving and social investment. Mr Hollobone: Under the Government’s offer, a teacher earning £32,000 a year could anticipate a pension of Julie Hilling: The Roots project in Westhoughton in £20,000 a year, whereas a private sector worker earning my constituency has been praised by the Government the same salary would have to devote some 38% of his as a beacon of the big society, but Liz Douglas, the or her wages in order to get a pension of the same size. founder, has had no wages for six months. Words are no Given the terms of the Government’s offer, should the good. When will the Minister take action to support the trade unions not now call off any threat of further voluntary and community sector? industrial action? Mr Hurd: The hon. Lady knows that we have taken Mr Maude: I simply pray in aid what Lord Hutton, a great deal of action, not least by putting in place a the former Labour Pensions Secretary, said yesterday, £107 million transition fund to help the most vulnerable when he referred to public sector trade unions “holding organisations. If she is talking about cuts being made a gun” to the taxpayer’s head. He said that the offer was locally by Bolton council, she will know that the reduction generous and that it was hard in its spending this year was only 7%. The questions “to envisage a better offer being made.” that she has to ask Bolton council are: “Why were you I hope that we can now move quickly to resolve the so badly prepared for this situation?” and: “Why did final, outstanding issues, so that we can move on without you block a proposal from Conservative councillors to further disruption to people’s lives. create a fund to support local voluntary organisations?”

Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Given that the Topical Questions Minister’s Department is currently the worst in Whitehall for meeting the Government’s business plan targets—targets T1. [86433] Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South for which he is responsible—having missed 38 at the last and East Cleveland) (Lab): If he will make a statement count, would his time not be better spent sorting out his on his departmental responsibilities. own Department, rather than picking fights with public sector unions? The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude): My responsibilities are Mr Maude: The short answer is that we want to get for the public sector Efficiency and Reform Group, civil these public sector pension issues resolved quickly. I service issues, industrial relations strategy across the would be quite interested to know whether the right public sector, Government transparency, civil contingencies, hon. Gentleman shares our belief—and that of Lord civil society and cyber-security. Hutton, his former colleague—that we are talking about a generous offer that the trade unions should accept, and that they should stop “holding a gun” to the Tom Blenkinsop: Lists for 2010 failed to mention that taxpayer’s head. Does he agree with that? the Prime Minister met Rupert Murdoch in June 2010. This was amended to ensure transparency only recently. Why? John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): The Minister earlier announced that if he had not secured agreement by Christmas, he would impose a pensions Mr Maude: No doubt we can provide an answer to settlement or scheme on the unions. Is that still his that question, but I do not have one at my fingertips. intention, and if it is, will he make a statement to the House next week? T2. [86434] Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): Mindful of the fact that we have not had Mr Maude: We very much hope that it will not be flooding for a number of months and mindful of the necessary for the Government to move to the stage of forecasted storm weather, can the Minister for the imposition. Our intention is that we should reach agreement. Cabinet Office assure us that flood rehearsals are It is necessary that we reach agreement by the end of the taking place between all the relevant emergency year, because there is a lot of work to do to put the new services on a regular basis? 781 Oral Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 782

Mr Maude: I can certainly confirm that. Meetings are needed reforms. Let me remind the hon. Gentleman taking place between the relevant Departments—one that Lord Hutton, the former Labour Pensions Secretary, took place earlier this morning—to ensure that capabilities has said that this is a generous offer and that the unions are in place in advance of any possible flooding, with should stop “holding a gun” to the taxpayer’s head. urgent consideration given to ensuring that the public receive the right advice. I am glad to say that the T6. [86439] Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) forecast is looking a little better than it was. (Con): Malvern has a cluster of firms—small, medium and large—with expertise in cyber-security. I invite the Several hon. Members rose—[Interruption.] Minister down to Malvern to meet them.

Mr Speaker: Order. There are far too many noisy Mr Maude: I can imagine nothing that would give me private conversations taking place in the Chamber. The greater pleasure. House must come to order. T8. [86441] Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) Michael Dugher (Barnsley East) (Lab): According to (Lab): Does the Minister have any regrets about the figures published by the Cabinet Office last week, the way in which he has conducted negotiations with Deputy Prime Minister has appointed four more special the public sector trade unions by using megaphone advisers at a cost to the taxpayer of at least £190,000. diplomacy through the media and not providing At a time when the average family is set to lose £320 a information in a timely way? year as a result of tax credit changes and at a time when almost everyone is asking what exactly is the point of Mr Maude: No, I have no regrets at all. We have the Deputy Prime Minister, does the Minister think that engaged in very intensive discussions over a long period this is a good use of public money? with the unions and the leadership of the TUC over the individual schemes. If the hon. Lady thinks we are not The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Mr Oliver negotiating, she should talk to the TUC about the Letwin): I would have thought that the hon. Gentleman intensiveness of the negotiations. Perhaps she would would realise that it is extremely important in a coalition like to remind her friends in the unions of what Lord that the Deputy Prime Minister as well as the Prime Hutton, the former Labour Pensions Secretary, said Minister should have adequate research support. It is only yesterday about the Government’s offer. [Interruption.] extraordinarily difficult for Government Members to take comments of that kind seriously, given the previous Several hon. Members rose— Government’s record on employing special advisers. Mr Speaker: Order. The House must come to order to hear Mr Simon Hughes. T5. [86438] Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con): Can the Minister confirm how many civil servants went on strike in the recent action? T7. [86440] Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD): What contribution are Departments making to greater energy efficiency and reducing Mr Maude: I can indeed. [Interruption.] On— carbon emissions following the successful Durban [Interruption.] summit?

Mr Speaker: Order. I know that the House wants to Mr Maude: In the first year following the forming of hear the right hon. Gentleman’s answer. the coalition Government, we cut carbon emissions by more than the 10% target that we had set ourselves. We Mr Maude: I sense that the House is waiting on the have also committed ourselves to ensuring that carbon edge of its seat for my answer. On 30 November, 146,256 emissions from Government buildings—Government civil servants went on strike, which represents about property—fall by no less than 25% during the current 30% of the civil service work force. I would like to Parliament, and I am confident that we will fulfil that express my appreciation to the 70% of civil servants commitment. who came to work that day as normal. Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): The Electoral T4. [86437] Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) Commission announced today that there are not 3 million (Lab): The Minister is refusing to negotiate with but 6 million missing, unregistered voters. Does the the unions over pension contribution increases, the Minister agree that the equalisation of seats should be retirement age, cost ceiling, indexation and other issues. postponed, or suspended, until a full investigation has Is that not typical of this Government, proving that been conducted to establish where those 6 million people they enter into negotiations with no intention whatever are? of coming to an amicable agreement? Are not the Government spoiling for a scrap with the trade unions? Mr Maude: I very much regret the fact that in the 13 years for which the hon. Gentleman’s party was in Mr Maude: Far from spoiling for a scrap with the office, it did absolutely nothing to address that problem. trade unions, we are engaged in very intensive discussions with them. Even in the week during which the strike T9. [86442] Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): The took place—a completely unnecessary strike, which national citizens service is an excellent initiative to help the Labour party refused to condemn, massively young people to develop the skills and attitudes that inconveniencing many people and damaging the they need in order to become responsible citizens. Can economy—a number of meetings took place with the the Minister tell me what local branches of the service trade unions to try to secure agreement on the much will be available to them in my constituency? 783 Oral Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 784

The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick In this, the last Prime Minister’s Question Time of Hurd): I will write to all Members shortly to tell them the year, let me remind the Prime Minister of what he which providers of the service are operating in their had to say in his new year message of 2011. He said: local authority areas, but I can confirm that providers “Uppermost in my mind as we enter the New Year is jobs.” will be working in Cheshire East and in Cheshire West and Chester next year. I strongly encourage all Members In the light of today’s unemployment figures, can he to become involved with this programme, which provides explain what has gone wrong? a fantastic opportunity for young people. The Prime Minister: First, let me join the right hon. Gentleman in his fitting and right tribute to our forces at Christmas time—those who are serving in Afghanistan, PRIME MINISTER but also those who are serving in other parts of the world. One of the things that strike you most in this job is that they are the best of the best. They are brave, they are courageous, they are dedicated, and their families, The Prime Minister was asked— too, give up a huge amount. I join the right hon. Gentleman in saying that. Engagements Let me say about the unemployment figures that any increase in unemployment is bad news and a tragedy for Q1. [86403] Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): If he will those involved, and that is why we will do everything we list his official engagements for Wednesday 14 December. can to help people back into work. That is why we have the Work programme, which will help 2.5 million people; The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): I am sure that is why we have the massive increase in apprenticeships that the whole House will wish to join me in paying that will help 400,000 people this year; and that is why tribute to Sapper Elijah Bond of 35 Engineer Regiment, we will give particular help to young people through the who died in Queen Elizabeth hospital, Birmingham last youth contract and through the work experience places. Thursday as a result of wounds that he had sustained in We will do all we can to help people back into work. Afghanistan. He was a dedicated and highly professional soldier, and at this tragic time we should send our condolences to his loved ones, his friends and his colleagues. Edward Miliband: But the figures show that the Prime Minister’s economic strategy is failing. The Chancellor This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues said at the time of the spending review last year: and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall have further such meetings later today. “private sector job creation will far outweigh the reduction in public sector employment.”—[Official Report, 29 November 2010; Vol. 536, c. 531.] Richard Fuller: Let me associate myself and, I am sure, all other Members with the Prime Minister’s words Will the Prime Minister confirm that over the last three about Sapper Elijah Bond. months, for every job being created in the private sector 13 are being lost in the public sector? The people of Bedford and Kempston will be disappointed that this week’s report on the financial crisis in the Royal Bank of Scotland contained no The Prime Minister: Let me give the right hon. Gentleman provision for the criminal prosecution of executives, the figures. Since the election, in the private sector there directors, regulators and Ministers for their failures. have been 581,000 extra jobs. In the public sector, he is Can the Prime Minister assure me that, unlike the last right that we have lost 336,000 jobs, so we need private Government, his Ministers will reinforce financial sector employment to grow even faster. But let me make regulations, and will not undermine them as the shadow this point to him, because I think this is important: Chancellor did when he was in office? whoever was in government right now would have to be making reductions in public spending. The only way The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right, and as you can keep people in work in the public sector while he will know, we are considering specific extra measures. doing that is to cut welfare—something we are doing We are considering sanctions in relation to what was and he opposes—or to freeze public sector pay—something done by people on the board of RBS. However, the we are doing and he opposes—or to reform public report was not just damning about the board of RBS; it sector pensions—something we are doing and he opposes. was damning about the politicians who were responsible So it is all very well standing there and complaining for regulating RBS. And it did not just name politicians about the rise in unemployment, but if we do not take who are no longer serving: it also named the shadow those steps, we would lose more jobs in the public Chancellor. sector.

Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): I join the Edward Miliband: I think the whole House will have Prime Minister in paying tribute to Sapper Elijah Bond heard that the Prime Minister cannot deny that the of 35 Engineer Regiment. He bravely gave his life in central economic claim that he made—that the private trying to improve the lives of others, and all our thoughts sector would fill the gap left by the public sector—has are with his family and friends. As we approach Christmas, not been met. He has broken his promise, and today’s our thoughts are also with all our troops who are figures also confirm that youth unemployment not only serving so bravely in Afghanistan and elsewhere. Many remains over 1 million; it is still rising, and long-term will be spending Christmas away from their families youth unemployment has gone up by 93% since he and friends to ensure a peaceful Christmas for us, and made his new year pledge on jobs. Is not the reality that we owe them a huge debt of gratitude. he is betraying a whole generation of young people? 785 Oral Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 786

The Prime Minister: We will not take lectures from a Edward Miliband: In the cold light of day, with other party that put up youth unemployment by 40%. That is countries spending the weeks and months ahead trying the case—even the right hon. Gentleman’s brother admitted to see whether they can get a better deal for themselves, the other day that youth unemployment was not a would not the sensible thing for the Prime Minister to problem invented by this Government; it has been going do be to re-enter the negotiations and try to get a better up since 2004. But let me explain what we are doing to deal for Britain? help young people get a job. Through the youth contract we are providing 160,000 new jobs with private sector The Prime Minister: First, I make no apologies for subsidies. With the 250,000 work experience places, half standing up for Britain. In the past two days we have those people are actually getting jobs and getting off read a lot about my opinions and we have read a lot benefit within two months. That is 20 times more effective about the Deputy Prime Minister’s opinions; the one than the future jobs fund. thing we do not know is what the right hon. Gentleman But the absolute key to all this is getting our economy would have done. While he was here on Monday his moving. We need private sector jobs. It is this Government aides were running around the Press Gallery briefing who have got interest rates down to 2%—that is why we that he would not have signed up to the treaty. Well, have the prospects of growth—whereas the right hon. here is another try: what’s your answer? Gentleman’s plans are for more spending, more borrowing and more debt: more of the mess that we started with. Mr Speaker: I have no answer on this matter whatsoever—[Interruption.] Order. I am glad the Minister Edward Miliband: The truth is that the Prime Minister’s of State, Department of Health, the right hon. Member promises to young people for next year are as worthless for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), has returned from his as the promises he made in 2011. Let us turn from his travels. We wish him a merry Christmas, but in his case broken promise on jobs to his broken promise on the it should be a quiet one. coalition. And Mr Speaker, let me say that it is good to see the Deputy Prime Minister back in the House. This Edward Miliband: There was a better deal for Britain is what the Prime Minister said—[Interruption.] Calm that the Prime Minister should have got, and that is down. This is what he said in his new year’s message for what the Deputy Prime Minister himself says. Here is 2011—and I will place a copy in the Library of the the truth: last week the Prime Minister made a catastrophic House, just so that everyone can see it: mistake, and this week we discover that unemployment “Coalition politics is not always straightforward…But I believe is at its highest level for 17 years. This Prime Minister we are bringing in a” thinks he is born to rule. The truth is that he is just not whole very good at it. “new style of government.” [HON.MEMBERS: “More! More!”] There is more: The Prime Minister: Even the soundbite was recycled “A more collegiate approach.” from a previous Prime Minister’s Question Time. On Wednesday the answer was no. Today—I think—the I am bound to ask, what has gone wrong? answer is maybe. This Leader of the Labour party makes weakness and indecision an art form; that is the Hon. Members: Answer! fact. The right hon. Gentleman gave me my end-of-year The Prime Minister: I will answer. No one in this report; let me give him his. He told us at the start of the House is going to be surprised that Conservatives and year, in his new year’s message, that the fightback Liberal Democrats do not always agree about Europe, started in Scotland. Well, that went well, didn’t it? He but let me reassure the right hon. Gentleman. He should told us that he would have credible plans to cut the not believe everything he reads in the papers. It’s not deficit, but we still have not seen them. He said that he that bad—it’s not like we’re brothers or anything! [HON. would stand up to vested interests, yet he backed the MEMBERS: “More! More!”] He certainly walked into biggest strike for years. We all know that he has achieved that one. one thing, though. He has completely united his party. Every single one of them has asked Santa for the same Edward Miliband: I think our sympathy is with the thing: a new leader for Christmas. Deputy Prime Minister. His partner goes on a business trip and he is left waiting by the phone, but he hears Hon. Members: Hear, hear! nothing until a rambling phone call at 4 am confessing to a terrible mistake. Mr Speaker: Order. I am sure Government Back How is the Prime Minister going to pick up the pieces Benchers want to hear their own colleague, Mr Martin of the bad deal he delivered for Britain? The Council Vickers. came to conclusions on Friday morning, but the treaty will not be signed until March. In the cold light of day, Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): Thank you, with other countries—[Interruption.] Mr Speaker. Yesterday’s announcement about local television was good news for my constituency, where Mr Speaker: Order. Some very, very foolish person Channel 7, the sole survivor from the original batch, is shouted out “Stop”. The person who did that will stop, based. Does the Prime Minister agree that local because people in this place must be heard. If there is a broadcasting strengthens local communities and advances Member here who does not think so, I invite that the big society? If he is in north Lincolnshire in the near Member to leave the Chamber. future, will he find time to pay Channel 7 a visit? 787 Oral Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 788

The Prime Minister: I would be delighted to do that. I Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD): Does the Prime do not have any immediate plans to visit north Lincolnshire, Minister share my concern about the impact of pocket- but I do support local television. I also think that north money priced alcohol on the state of our nation’s health Lincolnshire had some very good news with the Siemens and antisocial behaviour in our town centres, as well as plant going into Hull. That is excellent news for the about the damage it does to our community pubs? whole region. The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman makes an Q2. [86404] Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside extremely important point. There is no doubt in my and Hillsborough) (Lab): In the early new year the mind that very-low-cost alcohol is part of the problem Government intend to announce a wholesale revision in our town centres. One of the answers that the of the national curriculum. May I put it to the Prime Government have already come up with is to ban the Minister that it would be perverse—in fact it would be deeply discounted selling of alcohol, but we need to absurd—to require those coming from abroad to settle look at the broader question of low-cost alcohol. I have in Britain to learn about our democracy and to take noted very carefully the letter in the papers this morning citizenship courses while withdrawing the teaching of from a whole set of people with great expertise on this, citizenship and democracy to our own children in our and we are looking carefully at the issue. schools? Q4. [86406] Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): The Prime Minister: I listen very carefully to what the This morning we learned that the Teesside airport is right hon. Gentleman says, because I agree with some up for sale and it seems that, as unemployment is of the proposals about citizenship that he put forward sky-rocketing in the north-east, our planes may be when he was Home Secretary. Many Members will have grounded. Is not the loss of infrastructure and jobs in been to the citizenship ceremonies that he was responsible the north-east further evidence that this Government’s for, which have been a good addition to our country economic plan is a catastrophic failure? and our democracy. On behalf of the whole House, I pay tribute to him for that. We will look very carefully The Prime Minister: The key thing about the future at what he says about the curriculum, but the key aim of Durham Tees Valley airport, which is a vital airport, has to be to making sure that we teach the basics is not necessarily who owns it but whether it is being properly and well, and that we test on those basics, invested in and expanded. Is it working well? That is the because if someone cannot read and write properly, no key question, and that is the question that I know my lessons in citizenship will mean anything at all. right hon. Friend the Transport Secretary is looking at carefully. Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): Ninety-one per cent. of people who get into financial difficulty Q5. [86407] Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) believe they would have avoided doing so had they been (Con): Has the Prime Minister seen the OECD and better informed. Therefore, ahead of tomorrow’s debate National Institute of Economic and Social Research on financial education, will the Prime Minister support findings this week, which show that soaring immigration our calls for compulsory financial education for young was caused not by the prospect of prosperity but by the people? open-door policies of the previous Government—and will he prevent that from happening again? The Prime Minister: This very much links with the previous question. I strongly support teaching young The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely children about the importance of financial education, right. The report said specifically that but the point of having a proper review of the curriculum “the increase in net immigration to the UK was not driven is to make sure that we know what is absolutely essential primarily by the economic performance of the UK or other and core and what can be included as extra lessons. countries.” Instead, the report points to immigration policy. The Q3. [86405] Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): fact is that the previous Government quadrupled Unemployment is going up and living standards are immigration and let an extra 2.2 million people into the being squeezed. Many more people are being forced country. The answer is to deal with the bogus colleges, into the hands of the payday lenders and fee-charging and we are doing that; to put a limit on economic debt management companies. Will the Prime Minister migration from outside the EU, and we are doing that; act to protect ordinary people who are being preyed on and to have proper border controls and a border police and ripped off? command, and we are doing that as well.

The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady speaks with great Q6. [86408] John Robertson (Glasgow North West) experience, because she worked for Citizens Advice (Lab): The autumn statement saw 400,000 Scottish before coming to the House. She stands up for Citizens children lose more than £40 million as a result of Advice and is right to do so. All of us know what a changes in the tax system. In my constituency that brilliant job it does in our constituencies. She will know meant that £600,000 was taken from children. Why is that the previous Government wrestled with the issue of the Prime Minister taking money out of children’s how best to regulate doorstep lenders and other lenders, pockets, while allowing it to remain in the pockets of and the danger of driving people into the hands of loan bankers? sharks if we got rid of the regulated sector. I am very happy to discuss this further with interested colleagues. The Prime Minister: I am afraid the hon. Gentleman It is a very difficult subject to get right, but the Government is just plain wrong: the child tax credit is going up by are working at it. £135. He talks about the bankers, but it is this Government 789 Oral Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 790 who have put in place a bank levy that will raise more Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): Is every year than Labour’s one-off bonus tax raised in freezing the pay of young privates and corporals while one year. they are fighting in Afghanistan, without reference to the Armed Forces Pay Review Body, a breach of the Q7. [86409] Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): As a military covenant? York MP, I am extremely proud of our city’s vibrant tourism sector. Does my right hon. Friend agree that The Prime Minister: It is this Government who doubled tourism plays a key role in our local economies? Will he the operational allowance, which is the best way to get ensure that northern tourist attractions in particular money to the privates and the corporals in Afghanistan are promoted in the run-up to the Olympic games? who are doing such a good job. The operational allowance, being a flat cash sum, is of disproportionate benefit to The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important relatively low-paid people in the armed forces, whereas point. Millions of people will be coming to this country obviously a percentage increase would mean more money for the Olympic games. We need to encourage them not for the generals, the colonels and the brigadiers, rather just to go to the Olympic games, but to visit other parts than for the people on the front line. Looking at the of the country and to return to Britain for a subsequent operational allowance is crucial, but this Government visit. We will be running all sorts of promotions and have not just done that. We have extended the pupil schemes to encourage that. If we could encourage people premium to forces children, we have increased the council more generally to visit other places as well as London—York tax rebates for those who are serving, and for the first has many great tourist attractions and things of historical time we have written the military covenant into the law importance to see—we would drive a huge amount of of our land. jobs and growth in our regions. Q9. [86411] Chris Kelly (Dudley South) (Con): I Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): On commend my right hon. Friend for protecting our 16 December Bangladesh will mark its 40th anniversary national interest by exercising the veto last Friday. The as an independent nation, following a war that cost people of Dudley South thank him for it. The deal that 3 million lives. I want to pay tribute to the contribution he vetoed commits eurozone members to restricting made by this Parliament in supporting the people in structural deficits to below 0.5% of GDP. Did the their fight for liberty and self-determination. As Bangladesh Prime Minister appreciate that this is 16 times the UK is the country that is the second most vulnerable to structural deficit left by Labour? climate change, with an estimated 15 million to 20 million people likely to be affected in the coming decades, does The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a good the Prime Minister agree that it is now more important point, which is perhaps why the leader of the Labour than ever to support developing countries against the party is struggling so much to tell us what his view is on devastating effects of climate change? the proposed treaty. On one hand he wants to join the The Prime Minister: I absolutely agree with the hon. euro, if he is Prime Minister for long enough, and on Lady. The whole House should recognise what she has the other hand he wants to sign a treaty—[Interruption.] done in raising the issue at this time, as Bangladesh That is rubbish? He does not want to be Prime Minister approaches this important anniversary. Britain can be for long enough! He wants to join the euro, he wants a proud of the fact that we have very good relations with deal with very tough budget deficit limits, and he wants Bangladesh, and our aid programme in Bangladesh is to increase spending, borrowing and debt. He tells us now of the leading ones from anywhere in the world that he has a five-point plan, and I can sum it up in five into that country. We are spending specific money on words: “Let us bankrupt Britain again.” helping the Bangladeshis with climate change, meeting all the promises that we made. I have met the Prime Q10. [86412] Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Minister of Bangladesh. One of the issues that we do Fife) (Lab): Perhaps the Prime Minister could tell us have to raise, though, is that there are human rights why the Deputy Prime Minister did not support his issues in Bangladesh, and we should not be scared of position on Europe on Monday, and why not one single raising them with the authorities in the proper way. Liberal Democrat MP voted with the Prime Minister last night. Q8. [86410] Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): An EU-wide agreement on prisoner transfers comes The Prime Minister: Last night there was something into force this month, which will enable the UK to of a parliamentary rarity: a motion tabled by an opposition repatriate to jails in their own country any EU party praising the Prime Minister. I am very grateful to nationals imprisoned here. Given that some 13% of our colleagues in the Democratic Unionist party. I suspect prison population is made up of foreign nationals, will that many people concluded that Labour simply would the Prime Minister ensure that our EU partners stick to not get its act together and did not think that it was these new rules and take their criminals back? worth voting, and as a result we won very easily.

The Prime Minister: If my hon. Friend, with his Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): I am sure that strong views, is asking a question about a successful EU the whole House will join me in thanking a remarkable scheme, it really must be Christmas, so his question is man who has served this country and this place with very welcome. He is absolutely right: 13% of our prison courage and distinction for nearly 50 years. Eddie McKay, spaces are taken up by foreign nationals. That is hugely who is in the Gallery right now, has been a Doorkeeper expensive, and the EU-wide agreement gives us a great here for 23 years and retires on Tuesday. Before coming opportunity to return people to their national prisons to this place he served with distinction with the Scots and save money at the same time. Guards, leaving after 23 years of service as a senior 791 Oral Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 792 warrant officer. In the Household Division, you are not Chancellor set out in the autumn statement, but we also promoted to drill sergeant unless you are exceptional. need to ensure that the practices that the banks follow He saw action on Tumbledown mountain during the are fair, and seen to be fair. They have an interest in Falklands war in 1982. His company, G company, 2nd making sure that small businesses are in good health, Battalion Scots Guards, led that successful and audacious and they need to follow those sorts of procedures to night assault. May I ask the Prime Minister, on behalf ensure that that happens. of us all, to wish Drill Sergeant Eddie McKay a happy retirement and a happy Christmas? Q13. [86415] Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): Youth unemployment in Dumfries and The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for Galloway has risen by 65% over the past 12 months, raising this issue and, on behalf of the whole House, and with the British Retail Consortium indicating that very much thank Eddie for his incredible service. I think almost one in three jobs there are filled by under-25s, that in this House we sometimes take for granted the does the Prime Minister recognise that the predicted people who work so hard to keep it working and keep it squeeze on the retail sector will only increase the going, and I sometimes wonder what they think of all chances of youth unemployment increasing across the the antics we get up to in this House. We are incredibly entire country? grateful that he, after the incredible service he gave our The Prime Minister: The thing that would put the nation, came here and worked so hard for so many biggest squeeze on the retail sector is interest rates years. We are all in his debt, and send him good wishes going up. Just one percentage point increase in interest for his retirement. rates would see the typical family lose £1,000 a year through extra mortgage payments. Everybody knows Q11. [86413] Mr Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab): we are in a difficult economic situation and we have to Youth unemployment figures published this morning take difficult decisions, as there is effectively a freeze show that in the last quarter, 22% of 16 to 24-year-old across the eurozone, but the most important thing is to economically active citizens are unemployed—an keep those interest rates low, so that people have money increase of 1.2% on the previous quarter. The Prime in their pockets and we can see some good retail recovery. Minister ranted earlier in Question Time about what the Government are doing about youth unemployment Q14. [86416] David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): East in this country. Can he tell us why it is increasing? Cheshire hospice and many other hospices across the country run Christmas tree collection services that help The Prime Minister: Every increase in youth many families to recycle their Christmas trees in an unemployment is unacceptable—[Interruption.] I will environmentally sensitive way. Will the Prime Minister tell the House exactly what is happening. The number join me in this festive season in supporting the great of 16 to 18-year-old young people not in employment, work that such charities do in collecting trees to raise education or training is actually going down, but the hundreds of thousands of pounds for the important problem, as the hon. Gentleman rightly says, is that work of our hospices? 18 to 24-year-olds are finding the job market extremely The Prime Minister: I certainly join my hon. Friend, difficult. [HON.MEMBERS: “Why?”] The reason why at this time of year, particularly, in praising the amazing unemployment is going up is that we are losing jobs in work that hospices do. Many hospices do not receive a the public sector and not growing them fast enough huge amount of Government funding, and they have to in the private sector, so we need to do everything we can be very ingenious about how they raise money from to get our economy moving. The absolute key to that is people up and down the country. Collecting and recycling keeping our interest rates low. We now have interest Christmas trees so that we do not just leave them rates down to 2%. If we followed his party’s policy of outside the house but do this thing properly is an extra spending, extra borrowing and extra debt, interest excellent idea. I am sure that the whole House will want rates would go up, more businesses would go under and to join me in praising the work that hospices do, particularly we would not get our economy moving. at Christmas time.

Q12. [86414] George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) Q15. [86417] John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): (Con): Many Members will have encountered examples For the past 18 months the Prime Minister has been of banks using the threat of receivership to extract new promising legislation to create a register of lobbyists, charges and higher interest rates from their business but nothing has happened so far. Will he give us a customers. Does the Prime Minister agree that it is publication date for a consultation paper leading to wrong for banks to use what is effectively an legislation—or could he take on my ten-minute rule extortionate bargaining position in this way, and will Bill, which is already published? I am a generous sort of he agree to meet me to discuss some of the proposals I bloke, so he can have it now and get it on to the statute have outlined to limit the power of receivers and book. require banks to obtain a possession order before The Prime Minister: I am a generous sort of bloke selling up small businesses? too, so I can tell the hon. Gentleman that the lobbying proposals will be published within the next month—so The Prime Minister: I am very happy to meet my hon. this Government will have moved faster in 18 months Friend about this issue. It is vital that we not only get than the previous Government did in 13 years. our banks lending properly, and lending to small businesses, but ensure that they behave in an ethical and proper Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): The Prime Minister way as they do so. We are addressing the first issue—the will have seen the news this morning of the study on the quantity of lending—through the national loan guarantee excess deaths of people with diabetes—unnecessary scheme and the other credit-easing measures that the deaths, if the condition is treated correctly. The national 793 Oral Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 794 service framework for diabetes comes to an end in 2013. all those benefits by 5.2%, so people will see an increase Will the Prime Minister look at NSFs as a way of in the benefits that they receive next year. meeting the challenges in the health service and the health service budget, and helping people with diabetes? Mr Speaker: Last, but never forgotten, Mr Brian Binley. The Prime Minister: I am very happy to look at the national service frameworks, as the hon. Gentleman Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con): The suggests. The key issue with diabetes is that we need to Prime Minister will be aware that capacity levels on the raise the profile of the condition, because many people west coast main line are intolerable and getting worse. have it and do not know they have it—but also to look Does he share the concerns of rail users that delays to at the public health issues, because the explosion in High Speed 2 will only make their journeys more diabetes is partly due to bad diet and obesity in childhood. unpleasant? Will he provide the assurance that they We need to address those issues; otherwise we are seek about the future that he promised them? always going to be dealing with the disease rather than trying to prevent it. The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that question. Clearly the country has a Several hon. Members rose— choice. Because the west coast main line is as congested as it is, we need to replace it with either a traditional line Mr Speaker: I am in a generous mood too, and it is or a high-speed line. It is well known that the Government’s always a delight to listen to my colleagues, so we will view is that a high-speed line is the right answer. That is have a little more. why the consultation has been conducted. Not only will it be good for people who use the west coast main line; Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): Earlier this week it will be a successful regional policy that will link up in the other place, the coalition Government voted our great cities, shrink the size of our country and down, by a majority of two, a proposal to protect the ensure that all parts of the country can enjoy economic benefits of disabled children. Is reducing benefits for prosperity and growth. disabled children by over £1,300 a year something that reflects the Prime Minister’s often repeated mantra that Mr Speaker: I appeal to right hon. and hon. Members we are all in this together? who are leaving the Chamber to do so quickly and quietly so that we can all listen attentively to the Secretary The Prime Minister: First of all, we are not cutting of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs— benefits for disabled children. Actually, we are uprating preferably facing the House or the Chair. 795 14 DECEMBER 2011 Bovine TB 796

Bovine TB of the policy in two areas next year, to confirm our assumptions about the effectiveness, humaneness and 12.35 pm safety of controlled shooting. An independent panel of experts will oversee and evaluate the pilots and report The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and back to the Government, and we will then decide whether Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): Today I am the policy should be rolled out more widely. setting out the next stage in the bovine tuberculosis This has not been an easy decision to make, and it is eradication programme for England. not one that I have taken lightly. I have personally Bovine TB continues to be a major problem in England. considered all the options and evidence, and at present In 2010, nearly 25,000 cattle were slaughtered in England there is no satisfactory alternative. Today, I am publishing and the cost to the taxpayer is set to top £1 billion over a detailed policy document, copies of which will be the next 10 years. The problem is particularly bad in the available in the Vote Office after the statement. We need west and south-west of England, where 23% of cattle to strike a balance between taking the actions needed to farms were unable to move stock off their premises at control and eradicate the disease, maintaining a viable some point in 2010 due to their being affected by the cattle industry and using our resources in the most disease, causing much distress and hardship. effective and efficient way possible. As I explained in my statement in July, cattle measures, Badger control licences will be issued by Natural including routine testing and surveillance, pre-movement England under the Protection of Badgers Act 1992, to testing, movement restrictions, and the removal and enable groups of farmers and landowners in the worst- slaughter of infected animals, remain the foundation of affected areas to reduce badger populations at their our TB eradication programme. We have already own expense. Guidance to Natural England sets out strengthened cattle controls and will continue to do so. strict criteria that applicants for a licence will have to The Government are working in partnership with the meet to ensure that the pilots are carried out safely, farming industry and the veterinary profession to further effectively and humanely. promote good biosecurity and to provide advice and Scientists agree that if culling is conducted in line support to farmers. We also intend to invest a further with the strict criteria identified through the randomised £20 million over the next five years to develop effective badger culling trial, we can expect it to reduce TB in cattle and oral badger vaccines as quickly as possible. cattle over a 150 sq km area, plusa2kmsurrounding We know that to tackle this disease we need to look at ring, by an average of 16% over nine years relative to a each and every transmission route, and that includes similar unculled area. transmission from badgers to cattle. Ultimately, we Licences granted by Natural England will be subject want to be able to vaccinate cattle and badgers, but to strict conditions based on evidence from the randomised there are practical difficulties with the injectable badger badger culling trial, which are designed to ensure that vaccine, which is currently the only available option. the result is an overall decrease in the disease in the Badgers have to be trapped and caged in order to areas where culling takes place. Applications for licences administer it. As I told the House in July, we are will be considered only for an area of at least 150 sq km working hard to develop a cattle vaccine and an oral over a minimum of four years, and with the pilots to be badger vaccine, but usable and approved vaccines are conducted by trained and proficient operators. Groups still years away and we cannot say with any certainty of farmers will have to take reasonable measures to when they will be ready. In the meantime, we cannot identify barriers and buffers at the edge of culling areas just do nothing. such as rivers, coastlines and motorways, or areas where This terrible disease is getting worse and we have to there are no cattle or where vaccination of badgers deal with the devastating impact it has on farmers and occurs, to minimise the perturbation effect in places rural communities. It is difficult to quantify or put a where disturbing the badger population could cause an monetary value on that, but a report by the Farm Crisis increase in TB in cattle in the surrounding area. Network describes the feelings of panic, stress and The Department has assessed the known and estimated emotional devastation for farming families as they effects of badger culling and vaccination, and its veterinary repeatedly have to send their cows to be slaughtered. and scientific advice is that culling in high TB incidence I think that we would all agree that we need to stop areas, carried out in line with the licence criteria, will the disease spreading further, bring it under control and reduce the number of infected badgers, and thus the ultimately eradicate it. Evidence tells us that unless we weight of TB infection in badger populations in the tackle the disease in badgers, we will never eradicate it treatment area, more quickly than vaccination. It will in cattle. No country in the world that has TB in its therefore have a greater and more immediate beneficial wildlife has been able to eradicate it in cattle without impact on the spread of TB to cattle and the incidence addressing it in the wildlife population. In July, I set out of infection in cattle. revised proposals for controlling the disease in the Nevertheless, we still see a useful role for vaccination, badger population. In order to reduce TB in cattle in particularly in the future, and I have listened carefully the worst affected areas we proposed to allow a controlled to the views of groups that would like to help develop a reduction carried out by groups of farmers and landowners, vaccination programme. To support and encourage as part of a science-led and carefully managed policy of vaccination, DEFRA will make available up to £250,000 badger control. The policy would be piloted in two in each of the next three years to help meet the costs of areas in the first year. badger vaccination in accordance with a badger control Following the responses to the consultation that we plan, with priority given to areas where culling is licensed. launched in July on draft guidance to Natural England, We will also support staff or volunteers of voluntary the policy has been further refined. I am now in a sector organisations wishing to train to carry out position to announce that we will go ahead with a pilot vaccination. 797 Bovine TB14 DECEMBER 2011 Bovine TB 798

I look to the farming industry to show that it takes its received on the likelihood of free shooting increasing responsibility very seriously and that it is committed to the perturbation effect, which will reduce that 16% net delivering the programme effectively, safely and humanely. figure still further? That will be carefully monitored in the pilots, and on an Is the cull cost-effective? The right hon. Lady’s statement ongoing basis if the policy is rolled out more widely. was curiously silent on the costs to farmers, yet DEFRA To select the pilot areas, I will invite the farming estimates that it will cost farmers £1.4 million per cull industry to bring forward a shortlist of areas, from area. Farmers will need to prove they have the funds to which DEFRA will select two. Those two areas will complete the cull in the event that one pulls out or sells then be invited to apply for a culling licence. Natural up. How will she access those funds in the event of a England will assess the applications against the licence default? Who will access those funds, and on what criteria and decide whether to grant them a licence. basis? How will the money be held—in an escrow account or in joint names? How will liability be shared After the conclusion of the six-week pilots, from between farmers? what we observe and learn, and taking into account the evaluation by the independent panel, we will take a What guarantees can the Secretary of State offer decision on whether to roll out the policy more widely. taxpayers that the costs of completing a four-year cull Following the pilots, if we decide to proceed with a will not fall on them in the event of those indemnities wider roll-out, a maximum of 10 licences will be granted disappearing or becoming the subject of protracted to start each year. legal wrangling? How many staff will the right hon. Lady need to issue those cull licences? What is the cost Ensuring public safety is a key concern. In finalising to the taxpayer of hiring those extra staff at Natural the policy, we have worked closely with the Home Office England, a body that has shed nearly 500 staff since her and the Association of Chief Police Officers to scope disastrous settlement in the comprehensive spending out the role of the police in supporting those licensed review? operations. We know that the Home Secretary has warned the I know that there is great strength of feeling on the Secretary of State against proceeding with the cull. Will issue, but I also know that we need to take action now she confirm that the culls will not start until the Olympic before the TB situation deteriorates even further. We games are over? Will she confirm today that trained need to tackle TB from all angles, using all the available firearms police will be needed to police any public tools. I am acutely aware that many people oppose protests against the culls? badger culling and I wish that there was a current satisfactory alternative. However, we cannot escape the In the Secretary of State’s 2010 consultation, she fact that the evidence supports the case for a controlled estimated the costs to the police at £200,000, yet today’s reduction of the badger population in the areas worst report has revised those costs up to £2 million per cull affected by bovine TB. The impact of that terrible area. If 10 cull areas are licensed every year, that is a disease shows us that we need to act now. We cannot compound cost of £20 million a year to the police. Will keep delaying. she confirm that DEFRA will meet those costs in full? If so, from which budget, given that the Department In making the decision, I have considered all the has had a 30% cut? How will local police forces access evidence and have listened to the full range of views. those funds? Having listened to all sides of the debate, I believe that In written answers to me, the right hon. Lady estimates this is the right approach. that the cull will save the taxpayer £2.9 million in each cull area over 10 years. With 10 cull areas set to go Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): We recognise that ahead from 2013, that is a saving of £2.9 million a year, bovine TB is a devastating disease—that is why the which is just 3% of the £85 million cost of testing and Labour Government spent £50 million on randomised compensation to farmers. Will she therefore confirm badger culling trials. Any decision on a badger cull that the costs of bovine TB will continue to be borne by must answer four key questions. Is it science-led? Is it the taxpayer? cost effective? Is it humane? Crucially, will it work? The third question the Secretary of State must answer The independent scientific group on cattle TB, which is this: is her cull humane? In 2010, 48 people were reported on Labour’s trial culls, stated: prosecuted for offences against badgers and 29 were found guilty. The police wildlife crime unit is concerned “After careful consideration of all the RBCT and other data that illegal badger persecution will be carried out under presented in this report… we conclude that badger culling cannot the pretext of culling. Who will monitor cull licences meaningfully contribute to the future control of cattle TB in Britain.” and how will the conditions of the licence be monitored? She mentioned a six-week cull period, but how can she The Secretary of State quotes scientists who told the ensure that farmers will not go beyond that? Government that TB in cattle will be cut by 16% over Between 60,000 and 120,000 badgers will be killed nine years if the cull is carried out by trapping and then over a four-year period depending on the number and shooting the animals. However, her culls will not be size of cull areas, yet in the Secretary of State’s statement, carried out in that way. They will depend on farmers she curiously failed to mention the new national badger hiring people to free-shoot badgers at night—a method count announced this week, which will cost £871,000. that has never been scientifically assessed as a way of Surely she should have commissioned that survey before controlling bovine TB. announcing her pilot culls. How can we measure the Perturbation occurred in the first three years of Labour’s impact of a cull on the badger population when we have trial culls when badgers were humanely captured. What no scientific baseline? What measures is she taking to scientific advice has the Secretary of State sought or prevent the extinction of badger populations in cull 799 Bovine TB14 DECEMBER 2011 Bovine TB 800

[Mary Creagh] cost of the culling programme plus a 25% contingency, which deals with the hon. Lady’s point about the areas, and how will she ensure we remain in compliance contingency cost. of our international obligations under the Bern convention? Natural England’s existing staff will contribute to the Finally, will it work? The scientific group warned that programme. The overall cost to the Government of “several culling approaches may make matters worse”. £6.22 million over 10 years must be seen in comparison with the overall cost of the unchecked progress of the Is not the Secretary of State in danger of sleepwalking disease, which will be £1 billion a year or more to the into a disaster by licensing badger culls, the method of taxpayer over the next 10 years. The costs need to be which is unproven and untested, and which could make seen in the context of the overall burden on the taxpayer. things worse? The Government have constructed the I have had helpful and constructive conversations ultimate game theory test for farmers in TB-hit areas: with the Association of Chief Police Officers, but it is join in the cull or face increased TB in the herd from up to the police to deal with the precise operational badger perturbation. How will the views of farmers and details of ensuring public safety throughout the pilot landowners in areas affected by perturbation be collected process. We should not simply extrapolate an estimated and considered? What happens to farmers who do not cost from the pilots, as, I am afraid, the hon. Lady just wish a cull to proceed on their land? How will the did. Part of the point of the pilots is to establish more Secretary of State ensure the health and safety of the precisely what the exact cost will be. I have agreed with people carrying out the cull and disposing of infected the Home Office to share those policing costs in so far carcases, the police firearms officers policing the cull as additional and reasonable costs are incurred. and the protesters who will undoubtedly turn up at cull sites? On humaneness, we can be assured that Natural England will monitor the cull licences very carefully. If Today’s announcement is bad news for wildlife, bad any farmers should be so minded to exceed the six-week news for farmers and bad news for the taxpayer. The period, they would obviously lose their licence. I do not cull will not be cost-effective or humane and it will not believe, therefore, that that will happen. work. In “Yes, Minister”, Jim Hacker said: “Something must be done. This is something. Therefore we must do It is important to remember that the species is protected it.” Today the Secretary of State has turned her back on but not endangered. The last time the population was the scientific advice. Page 11 of her own document surveyed—in the 1990s—there were between 250,000 states: and 300,000 badgers in Great Britain. Of course, the previous Labour Government had ample opportunity “It is a matter of judgement, not science, whether the farming to launch a survey if they had wanted to, but this industry can deliver an effective, coordinated and sustained cull.” Government have seen fit to do so. That is important in I hope she has got everything crossed. ascertaining the population in the controlled areas. We have satisfied ourselves that the Bern convention would Mrs Spelman: The hon. Lady asked a lot of questions not be breached by the policy that I have proposed. so I will answer them as quickly as I can. First, I should Finally, I agree with the hon. Lady on this point. She point out that this is a science-led approach to the pilots said that a matter of judgment and not the science and that when in office the previous Labour Government alone drives this decision. If the previous Government spent £50 million on trials. The science is important and had exercised their judgment and acted when they had this Government have responded to what was learned the chance, the disease, and the cost of dealing with it, from those trials. We learned that culling could be more would not have escalated to the point it has reached effective if the boundaries of the control area were firm today. ones, to reduce the perturbation effect. In addition, the ground she cited—she said that the cost would be Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): prohibitive—overlooks that fact that the farmers have Farmers and wildlife conservation groups will welcome agreed to pay. I encourage the shadow Secretary of the statement. The badger population must be controlled. State to look at the long tail from that trial. Five and a Any constituency that produces so many cattle, including half years after the analysis, the trial continues to mine, lives in fear of one rogue animal entering the provide a benefit in reduced TB incidence in those chain. areas. Will the Secretary of State address what the position The method to which the hon. Lady referred—controlled will be when we have a vaccine in place, given that the shooting—is commonly used to control other wildlife meat of vaccinated cattle will not be allowed into the populations, such as deer, foxes and rabbits. We therefore food chain? We have the time to address that. Will she have reasonable confidence in our assumption that the bear in mind the conclusions of the Select Committee method will be both effective and humane in relation to on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs report adopted badgers, but, to be absolutely clear, those who undertake in the previous Parliament, by which current members the culling will be required to have deer-stalking level 1 of the Committee stand? proficiency or equivalent, and they will be required to undertake an additional course to ensure that they Mrs Spelman: My hon. Friend is singularly well understand badger physiognomy. qualified with her experience in the European Parliament On cost-effectiveness, in the end, it is up to farmers to to know how difficult it is to get the law changed there. choose whether or not to be part of a controlled reduction It is currently illegal to vaccinate cattle and to sell or of badgers in their area, but the Government make a export that meat. We would have to get the 26 other requirement that groups of farmers form a limited member states to agree to a change in the law. We must company that puts aside in a bank account the four-year accept that that would take many years. 801 Bovine TB14 DECEMBER 2011 Bovine TB 802

Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Will the Secretary Mrs Spelman: I am sorry to say that the hon. Lady is of State be clear with the House about what level of misguided in thinking that there is a link between the mortality she expects shooting to achieve, because the intensification of dairy farming and the incidence of very clear advice that we received over many years as TB in cattle. There is no evidence of that. Ministers was that shooting would not achieve a level of mortality high enough to make any difference to the Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): Farmers disease at all? She is allowing only a very short six-week across North Wiltshire, many of whom have been devastated period for the pilots, which cannot be credible. by TB and have lost their herd some two or three times, Mrs Spelman: The science determines the level of will very much welcome the Secretary of State’s mortality that must be achieved for the controlled reduction announcement today and will hope to be a part of the to be effective, and a 70% reduction in the badger first 10, or even first two, trials. However, is she not population is what the RBCT trial showed had to be concerned about the talk from Opposition Members achieved. One key point of the six-week pilot is to about the security surrounding the cull? Is there not a confirm our assumption that controlled shooting will risk that people will be enjoined by them and others to achieve that level of reduction in the badger population. break the law in a way that was suggested by the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn)? Will she take Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): My right hon. Friend steps to ensure that the precise location of the cull is not is absolutely right to say that this is a devastating in the public domain so that such actions can be avoided? disease. We must hope that this policy will help and not make the situation worse. In the implementation of the Mrs Spelman: I have had very careful conversations culling policy, how will she ensure that there is a proper with the Home Secretary and with the Association of and rigorous estimate of the badger population and Chief Police Officers regarding security. Like members also that there is a proper count of those badgers that of the public, people who are licensed to undertake a are culled within the area and not outside it? cull have every right to expect their safety to be protected. Careful analysis has been undertaken by the police and Mrs Spelman: I commiserate with my hon. Friend I respect their expertise and thank them for their assistance. because his part of the country has been the most badly affected by this terrible disease. Natural England will carry out a survey of the badger population before any Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): Let me follow culling takes place and will also check that the percentage on from the question of the hon. Member for Brighton, of badgers culled fits the criteria set out in the pilot. Pavilion (Caroline Lucas). There is nothing in this statement about dealing with the problem of cattle-to-cattle Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): Should not the transmission. All the evidence shows that that is a clarion call go out from this House today to all the significant factor in spreading bovine TB. What does right-thinking, compassionate people in this country to the Secretary of State plan to do about that? It seems frustrate this cruel and unnecessary slaughter of animals? that the only solution on offer is shooting badgers. Is it not right that this has been founded on greed and bad science by the nasty party? Paul Flynn: But the alternative would upset the farmers. Mrs Spelman: I hope that an hon. Member is not calling on the public to break the law; that would be Kerry McCarthy: Exactly. very unwise. Mrs Spelman: I refer the hon. Lady to the statement Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): The that I made in July, setting out the other important compassionate people in my constituency will very much elements of the bovine TB package, of which controlled welcome the great thought, care, attention and bravery reduction of the badger population is just one part. We of the Secretary of State and her team in tackling this have strengthened measures on controlling the movement issue. I particularly welcome the investment by the of cattle and expanded the areas for the testing of cattle. Government in the voluntary trials for vaccination. I know that that was very much wanted by the industry. Perhaps the Secretary of State could give us a bit more As a west midlands MP, my farmers came to me and information about them, because, ultimately, those trials said that they would prefer to be part of the annual are what we all want to see. testing because they want to know more frequently whether their cattle are clear. In my July statement, all Mrs Spelman: As I have said, this is a difficult decision those strict measures were cited. and it is not one that I have found easy to make. Having spoken and listened to all the stakeholders involved, I understand that the cost of training someone to take Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): The year after part in the vaccination programme is significant, so I Labour came to power, fewer than 600 cattle were hope that with the money that I have announced today, slaughtered in Devon. This year, we are well on course we will be able at least to halve the cost of that training. for more than 6,000 to be slaughtered. Bovine TB is spreading remorselessly across the UK and many areas Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Rather of the country will no longer be disease free unless we than pursuing this cruel and counter-productive cull, take action, so I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement what consideration did the Secretary of State give to today. However, does she not share the concerns of reducing the trend towards increasing intensive dairy farmers in my constituency who feel that they could be farming? Around 80% of bovine TB transmission is targeted by violent activists? Will she assure them that thought to be caused cattle to cattle and that happens those who carry out this very difficult task will have far more easily in crowded conditions. their anonymity protected? 803 Bovine TB14 DECEMBER 2011 Bovine TB 804

Mrs Spelman: The whole House respects my hon. shown there to be a lasting effect and that perturbation Friend’s medical expertise, and she is right to point out is only temporary. None the less, there will be those that the disease has spread—it has spread from the who, understandably, will have an emotional response south-west to the midlands. That fact demonstrates that to this issue. They may be inflamed by people in this doing nothing is not an option. As for her important House and elsewhere who are somewhat removed from point about personal information, I can assure her that, the problem. Will she undertake to carry out as much in the interests of personal security, personal information publicity as she can and to work with organisations will be kept confidential. such as the British Veterinary Association to make the case for those who have an instinctive response and Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): I should declare have not had the opportunity to consider the issues? that I am a member of the British Veterinary Association, which I know will welcome the right decision at the Mrs Spelman: The hon. Gentleman makes an important right time under the right circumstances following the point. I understand that this issue excites strong emotions, right evidence to get the right conclusions. I welcome but for those who feel strongly about it I point to the the Secretary of State’s statement and the fact that her Farm Crisis Network report, which shows the devastating Department has stuck to its guns on this issue. It is emotional cost to the farmers who lose their cattle. It is important that we reach a solution. I welcome the probably right at this point to pay tribute to the work conclusion of the report that the reduction of the done by Adam Henson and “Countryfile” to make incidence of TB in cattle will be achieved if we follow members of the public more aware of the cost to this licensing procedure. I hope that the Secretary of farmers of the slaughter of their animals as well as of State will ring the Ministers in the devolved regions and the impact on wildlife. encourage them to follow these actions. We need to put in place a scheme such as this in Northern Ireland. Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): The Secretary of State will know that the previous Welsh Government had Mrs Spelman: I assure the hon. Gentleman that we intended a cull but the current Welsh Government are in close contact with other devolved Ministers. We appear to have had a change of mind. Has she discussed should of course remember that Scotland is TB-free the reasons behind that change of mind with the Welsh and would like to remain so. I hope that our policy will Government? Furthermore, will she discuss the contents give it some comfort in that matter. I have taken the of her statement with the Welsh Government, given the veterinary advice very seriously. It is the vets who point substantial trade in cattle between England and Wales? out that no programme of eradicating TB anywhere in the world has been successful without tackling the Mrs Spelman: Yes, I can give that assurance to the reservoir infection in the wildlife. hon. Gentleman. The Minister of State is in regular contact with the Agriculture Minister. We meet regularly Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): I know at Agriculture and Fisheries Council meetings that I that farmers in South East Cornwall will welcome this invite the devolved Ministers to attend and at which we news. Alpaca farmers will welcome it, too. Is the Secretary have ample opportunity regularly to share our approach of State aware that bovine TB has been affecting alpaca to the control of TB. I shall have that opportunity at the herds as well as cattle herds? Agriculture and Fisheries Council tomorrow.

Mrs Spelman: Sadly, there is no satisfactory test for Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): May I TB in camelids, which includes alpacas, and that is a welcome the Secretary of State’s statement, which is source of considerable concern. We will continue to absolutely right for the farmers in my constituency work on that. Alpacas are included in our programme whose cattle have suffered from this disease for many of trying to manage and control this disease. years? You have made the right decisions. If you tackle the disease in the wildlife, you stop it reinfecting the Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): No one is cattle every year, which is what has been happening for suggesting that bovine TB is not a problem. However, years. I thank you very much for acting on that. The why does the Secretary of State believe that what she only way they tackled the disease in New Zealand and proposes will work given the scientific conclusions of a Australia was by tackling it in wildlife. 10-year pilot by the previous Government? Mr Speaker: I am most grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s Mrs Spelman: When a programme of badger control gratitude, but I think he will intend me to redirect it to was part of the original randomised badger culling the Secretary of State. trial, the science showed a clear reduction within the controlled area, and an impact on the edge of the area. Mrs Spelman: My hon. Friend makes a very important We have proposed to build on that science base and point. In New Zealand, the incidence of the disease in grant licences to areas with more firmly controlled possums had to be tackled; in Australia, it had to be boundaries to reduce the perturbation effect. It is tackled among wild buffalo; and in Ireland, it was indisputable that the original trial saw, on average, a tackled in the badger population. No part of the world 16% reduction in the incidence of TB in cattle herds. has successfully tackled TB in its cattle population without addressing the reservoir of disease in wildlife. Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): The Secretary of State has quite rightly set out the sad decision that Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): The wildlife trusts has had to be taken on this issue. She has also made it have said that the scientific evidence does not support clear that the decision is based on the scientific evidence the culling of badgers and could even make matters that was provided by the trials. Ongoing monitoring has worse by disturbing the remaining badgers, spreading 805 Bovine TB14 DECEMBER 2011 Bovine TB 806 the disease further. How will the Secretary of State including strengthening biosecurity measures, will be ensure that these short six-week pilots get the evidence available. It is a full toolkit to tackle this terrible disease. base to demonstrate whether the wildlife trusts are right or wrong in their suppositions? Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): The impact of bovine TB is as devastating to farmers, cattle and Mrs Spelman: I really must nail this point about the wildlife in Wales as it is in England, but the control of science. The science shows that if the badger population the disease in Wales is devolved to the Welsh Government. is reduced by 70%, TB incidence is reduced by 16%. Will my right hon. Friend reassure me that all the That is what the original trial shows and we cannot get evidence, experience and information available to her away from those facts. The judgment is whether the will be shared with the Welsh Government so that the proposed method of controlled shooting will achieve issue can be dealt with in Wales, too? that and that is the point of piloting it. Mrs Spelman: I can give that assurance. Of course, John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): The farmers of south we will share with devolved Ministers all the evidence Wiltshire and around Salisbury will warmly welcome and experience from the two pilots as well as from the today’s announcements. Will the Secretary of State wider package. confirm that these new provisions will be kept under review to ensure that they are successful in tackling this Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Will my right terrible disease? If they are seen to be successful, will hon. Friend confirm that there will be a requirement, moves be made to extend them as soon as possible so particularly in the pilots, for a strict count of the that everyone can have the benefit of the trials? number of badgers culled, that there will be a requirement for those badgers to be tested to substantiate that they Mrs Spelman: As I made clear, the two trials that will are suffering from TB and that in the long term, there take place next year—probably at the start of the autumn— will be a requirement that those areas that are going will cover a six-week period, after which we would through vaccination will not also have culling at the expect the evaluation of those trials to take approximately same time? another four weeks. The evaluation will be undertaken by an independent panel, the composition of which will Mrs Spelman: I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. be announced in the new year. Of course, we will keep Very strict requirements have been set out, and tomorrow that under very close review, as we will all the parts of I will publish the guidance to Natural England and he our package of proposals to eradicate TB. might wish to read that to see precisely how this will be controlled and how we will test the infection of badgers. Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): On the point about coterminous vaccination and controlled May I press the Secretary of State to say a little more reduction, it is important to remember that this is a about these trial areas of 150 sq km? Will all the package and the option we have chosen to pursue landowners within that trial area have to sign up? If combines controlled reduction of the badger population they do not, will the shooters be allowed to go on to with vaccination. Some parts of the area might not be their property to shoot? suitable for one method of controlled reduction and boundaries might be secured by a programme of Mrs Spelman: What is required for the pilots is access vaccination, too. to 70% of the land, in line with the evidence from the randomised badger culling trial. We need access to 70% Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): May I, too, congratulate of the land. There is no element of compulsion on all my right hon. Friend on her statement, which I welcome? landowners in the area, but 70% is needed as part of the In view of our bitter experience in Wales with proposed limited liability company that a group of farmers would trials, however, how confident is she that these proposals set up. will not be subject to a legal challenge?

Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): I Mrs Spelman: Far from it: I think we can be reasonably draw Members’ attention to my entry in the Register of confident that they will be subject to a legal challenge Members’Financial Interests. Today—this very day—cattle and that is one reason why we have taken the utmost will be taken from the farm for which I have responsibility care. We have taken our time and we have taken a to be shot, because they were found to be reactors last precautionary approach, and every step of the way we week. I welcome the Secretary of State’s courageous have tried to ensure that we have a copper-bottomed announcement following the incisive scientific analysis reasoned analysis that is the basis of our judgment that by David King, but will she also insist that farmers play we should proceed with this policy. their part in maximising biosecurity and following all the regulations on testing and movement, too, so that Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): I am aware that more than we can maximise the effect of the announcement? 1,200 badgers have been vaccinated over the past 18 months in Gloucestershire in trials under separate projects Mrs Spelman: I commiserate with the hon. Gentleman from the Food and Environment Research Agency and on the loss of those cattle. The front page of the Farm the Gloucestershire wildlife trust to assess the practical Crisis Network’s report brings home to anyone who has use of a vaccine. I am pleased that the new vaccine not experienced that what it feels like. One farmer said: plans have been announced today and they at least “I feel there is a constant dark cloud of uncertainty over me, explain that we are trying different solutions to sort out causing stress, anxiety and fear.” this problem, which is a huge one in Somerset. When I am sure that the hon. Gentleman identifies with him. I will the Secretary of State be in a position to assess the assure him that all aspects of the bovine TB package, effectiveness and costs involved in that project in 807 Bovine TB 14 DECEMBER 2011 808

[Tessa Munt] Victims of Crime (Code of Practice) Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order Gloucestershire and how will that inform the planned No. 23) vaccination projects that are to come over the next three years? 1.21 pm Mrs Spelman: It will take some time—many years— Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): I beg to move, before we can finally assess the effectiveness of the That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision for a vaccination trial in Gloucestershire, but I went and saw code of practice to be observed by all those working in the it for myself and, as much as anything, it was about the criminal justice system setting out the rights of victims of crime practicalities of trapping and caging the badgers prior and their families; and for connected purposes. to injecting with the only vaccine that is available. There It is a privilege to address the House on a matter of are considerable practical difficulties with the procedure, profound importance to the functioning of our criminal but today I have tried to make available a fund to help justice system, and I am delighted that so many Members those voluntary groups that want to participate in the have expressed their support for this endeavour. vaccination programme. The Bill sets out to provide more rights and support to the victims of crime and to their families. We all George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con): I know, from meeting victims of crime in our constituencies, welcome the Secretary of State’s proportionate and the horrific, appalling and devastating effect that criminals measured approach to this very contentious issue, and it have on their lives, but all too often victims and their will be respected by farmers in the west country, many families feel let down, unrepresented and abandoned as of whom have suffered tragic losses from their herd. I they are processed through the criminal justice system. welcome also the long-term commitment to developing a vaccine, but does my right hon. Friend agree that one Two sets of figures highlight how scandalous and of the problems with the current vaccine is that it will inconsistent the treatment of victims can be. The 2010-11 only inoculate healthy badgers against future infection British crime survey shows that only 39% of victims and cannot cure badgers that already have the disease? were confident that the criminal justice system is effective, compared with 44% among non-victims, and that 56% Mrs Spelman: My hon. Friend, who is very of victims are confident that the criminal justice system knowledgeable, has hit on the problem that the vaccine is fair, compared with 63% of non-victims. In other is effective only in badgers that are clear of the disease. words, once a victim goes through the criminal justice That is one reason why vaccination takes so much system and has experienced its workings, they believe it longer than the method of controlled reduction by to be less effective and less fair, compared with the controlled shooting, but I reiterate that the Government expectations of non-victims. have committed £20 million to the ongoing quest to The treatment of victims is of even more concern find an oral vaccine for badgers. It has been effective in when compared with the treatment of defendants and treating other diseases such as rabies, and if only we offenders. Surveys show that only about one third of could find one, we would all, I am sure, be delighted. people believe that the criminal justice system “meets the needs of victims”. ROYAL ASSENT By contrast, twice as many—80%—believe that the system Mr Speaker: I have to notify the House, in accordance “respects the rights of and treats fairly people accused of committing with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that Her Majesty has a crime.” signified her Royal Assent to the following Acts: That is no doubt why the former victims commissioner, London Olympic Games and Paralympic Games Louise Casey, whose work I pay tribute to, has said that (Amendment) Act 2011 “there is a need, if not to take away rights from offenders, to at Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Act least give consideration to ‘balancing up’ the system towards some basic needs of victims. Convicted or accused people are 2011 afforded a strong position in terms of definite ‘rights’ from the Public Bodies Act 2011 criminal justice system, whereas victims are afforded vague codes Charities Act 2011. and unenforceable charters with no real route of complaint.” The existing procedures for victims have failed and proved to be inadequate, and the victims commissioner called for a new victims law, which would include the rights for victims and their families to make statements to influence sentencing, to receive information about their case and to be given suitable support. Before Louise Casey left her post, she also called for more support and rights for the families of murder victims. It is deeply worrying that 51% of families bereaved in such circumstances have found the criminal justice system to be the most difficult issue to deal with, but that is why she called for them to receive greater rights to information, greater practical and emotional support and better treatment in the courtroom. She rightly called also for delays in releasing bodies to be overcome, so that loved ones might be buried within 28 days. Measures to introduce 809 Victims of Crime (Code of Practice)14 DECEMBER 2011 Victims of Crime (Code of Practice) 810 those recommendations and others are included in my had to encounter a range of practical obstacles, such as Bill, as it strengthens the rights of victims and enshrines translation costs, travel arrangements and an unfamiliarity those rights in law. with foreign legal systems. Currently, only 13% of those In the time I have left, I should like to draw the families feel as though the British authorities treat them House’s attention to some other issues that need addressing as victims, and there is a wide disparity in the support and are dealt with in my Bill. First, victims’ rights must services available to them. I pay tribute to the outstanding be enforceable with an efficient and effective mechanism work undertaken by the organisation Support After in place for them to seek and secure redress when their Murder and Manslaughter Abroad in assisting relatives rights have not been respected. Offenders and defendants faced with that tragic set of circumstances, and to its have a range of legal avenues available to them when efforts to develop a memorandum of understanding they feel mistreated in the criminal justice system, including with the authorities in this country. But a firm set of going all the way to the European Court of Human commitments, which my Bill provides for, is needed so Rights, but the striking absence of a corresponding that full assistance can be afforded and provided to system for victims is unjust, and my Bill reverses that. them. Finally, my Bill gives victims greater protection from Secondly, as part of making victims the central focus criminals not only when the criminal is out in the of the criminal justice system, my Bill ensures that they community, but when they are in prison. In one shocking have a genuine say over whether an offender is charged, case in my constituency, a convicted murderer has been and when a sentence is passed down once a guilty able from jail to torment the family of the deceased, verdict is secured. Too often, victims are excluded from through media articles both authorised by the Ministry that process, an appalling example of which was when of Justice and unauthorised. That cannot be right, and the police and courts let off an offender responsible for my Bill empowers victims in such circumstances to committing some 600 crimes in Essex. Instead of being prevent hurtful statements by their convicted tormentors. put in a prison cell, he went into the community to reoffend. Needless to say, victims throughout the county Those are important issues for victims in all our were angered by the judgment and by the fact that they constituencies, and I hope that right hon. and hon. were excluded from the decision-making process and Members throughout the House will show their support did not get their day in court to press for a more by granting me leave to bring in this Bill. relevant and appropriate sentence. Under my Bill, that Question put and agreed to. would not happen again. Ordered, Thirdly, as part of giving more rights to the families That Priti Patel, Mr Philip Hollobone, Charlie Elphicke, of homicide victims, my Bill compels authorities to Mr David Amess, Mr Graham Brady, Mr Andrew offer more support to the families of British nationals Turner, Mark Pritchard, Mr Graham Allen, Bob Russell, murdered abroad. In recent months, two horrendous Nick de Bois, Stuart Andrew, Mark Durkan and Elizabeth cases have come to my attention, in which constituents Truss present the Bill. have suffered because of the murder overseas of those Priti Patel accordingly presented the Bill. nearest and dearest to them. Not only have they had a Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on terrible time dealing with the tragic loss, but they have Friday 27 January 2012 and to be printed (Bill 263). 811 14 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 812

Business of the House (11) If the bill was reported from a committee of the whole House under paragraph (3), it shall stand 1.30 pm committed to a committee of the whole House in respect of those clauses and schedules which were The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of committed to a committee of the whole House in the the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): I beg to first Session and not ordered to stand part of the bill move, in that Session. That— (12) If the bill was read a second time in the first Session 1. Standing Order No. 80A (Carry-over of bills) shall be and was not set down for consideration at any time in amended as follows— that Session, any order of the House giving leave for a committee on the bill to sit twice on the first day on (a) in line 7, after the word ‘motion’, insert the words which it meets in the first Session shall apply to the ‘(other than a motion relating to a bill brought in first day on which the committee meets in the next upon a ways and means resolution)’, and Session. (b) in line 23, at end, insert the words ‘(other than a bill brought in upon a ways and means resolution)’; and (13) If the bill was set down for consideration at any time in the first Session, the bill shall be set down as an 2. the following new Standing Order be made— order of the day for (as the case may be) ‘(1) The Speaker shall put any question necessary to consideration, further consideration or third reading. dispose of proceedings on a carry-over motion of which a Minister of the Crown has given notice (14) Notices of amendments, new clauses and new under Standing Order No. 80A (Carry-over of bills) schedules given in respect of parts of the bill not relating to a bill brought in upon a ways and means disposed of in the first Session shall be reprinted as resolution— notices in respect of the bill as presented and proceeded with under paragraph (5).’. (a) forthwith if the motion is made on any day before the bill is read a second time, or on the day the bill is read a second time; or Mr Speaker: With this we will consider the following: (b) not more than one and a half hours after the Motion 3—Third Reading (Bills Brought in upon a commencement of proceedings on the motion if Ways and Means Resolution)— the motion is made at any other time. That Standing Order No. 77 (Third reading) be amended by (2) The following paragraphs of this order shall apply to adding at the end— any bill ordered to be carried over to the next Session of Parliament in pursuance of a carry-over motion to ‘(2) The third reading of a bill brought in upon a ways and which paragraph (1) applies. means resolution may be taken at the same sitting of (3) If proceedings in committee on the bill are begun but the House as its consideration on report.’. not completed before the end of the first Session, the Motion 4—Sessionality (Supply)— chair shall report the bill to the House as so far That, notwithstanding the practice of the House as to the amended and the bill and any evidence received by legislative authorisation of (a) appropriation of expenditure and the committee shall be ordered to lie upon the Table. (b) maximum numbers for defence services, legislative (4) In any other case, proceedings on the bill shall be authorisation of appropriation of Votes on Account and suspended at the conclusion of the Session in which maximum numbers for defence services may take place on a day the bill was first introduced. not later than 5 August in the Session following that in which the (5) In the next Session of Parliament, a Minister of the founding resolutions for the forthcoming financial year were Crown may, after notice, present a bill in the same agreed to by the House. terms as the bill reported to the House under Motion 5—Consideration of Estimates— paragraph (3) of this order or as it stood when proceedings were suspended under paragraph (4) of That— this order; the bill shall be read the first time without (1) Standing Order No. 54 (Consideration of estimates) shall question put and shall be ordered to be printed; and apply for the remainder of this Session as if, for the word ‘Three’ paragraphs (6) to (13) shall apply to the bill. in line 1, there were substituted the word ‘Five’; (6) In respect of all proceedings on the bill, any resolution (2) Standing Order No. 54 (Consideration of estimates) shall which the bill was brought in upon in the first Session be amended in accordance with paragraphs (3) to (7) of this shall be treated as if it were such a resolution of the order; House in the next Session and any reference in any resolution upon which the bill was brought in to a (3) in line 1, leave out ‘before 5 August,’; Bill or Act of the present Session shall be treated in (4) in line 13, at end, insert ‘Provided that the foregoing the next Session as a reference to a Bill or Act of that provisions of this paragraph shall not apply on any day on which Session. time has been allocated pursuant to paragraph (2)(b) of Standing (7) In respect of all proceedings on the bill, the bill shall be Order No. 24 (Emergency debates).’; treated as a bill brought in upon ways and means resolutions. (5) leave out lines 25 to 34 and insert— (8) If the bill was read a second time in the first Session, it ‘Provided that on days on which time has been allocated shall be read a second time without question put. pursuant to paragraph (2)(b) of Standing Order (9) If the bill was not set down for consideration at any No. 24 (Emergency debates) or the Chairman of time in the first Session, any committal order in Ways and Means has set down opposed private respect of the bill shall apply to proceedings on the business under paragraph (5) of Standing Order No. Bill in the next Session (subject to paragraphs (10) 20 (Time for taking private business), proceedings and (11)). under this sub-paragraph shall not be entered upon until the business in question has been disposed of (10) If the bill was reported from a public bill committee and may then be proceeded with for three hours, under paragraph (3), it shall stand committed to a notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order public bill committee in respect of those clauses and No. 9 (Sittings of the House).’; schedules which were committed to a public bill committee in the first Session and not ordered to (6) in line 38, leave out ‘hour prescribed under paragraph (5)’ stand part of the bill in that Session. and insert ‘day and hour prescribed under paragraph (6)’; 813 Business of the House14 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 814

(7) in line 40, leave out paragraph (5) and add— (d) excess votes, provided that the Committee of Public ‘(5) Any estimates on which questions have been deferred Accounts has reported that it sees no objection to to another day in accordance with the provisions of the amounts necessary being authorised by excess paragraphs (4) and (6) of this order, together with vote.’; any questions so deferred, and all other estimates (f) in line 15, leave out paragraph (3); appointed for consideration on any previous day or (g) in line 29, leave out ‘, and limits on appropriations in half day allotted under this order shall be set down aid,’; and for consideration on the day to which the questions (h) in line 33, leave out ‘paragraphs (2), (3) or (4)’ and have been deferred. insert ‘paragraph (2) or (4)’. (6) On the day to which the provisions of paragraph (2) or (4) of Standing Order No. 55 (Questions on voting of Mr Heath: For the convenience of the House, it may estimates, &c.) apply which falls after or on any day be helpful if I say that it is not my intention later to or half-day allotted under this order, the Speaker move motion 7. There are two reasons for that: first, shall, at the time prescribed in paragraph (1) of that there is a deficiency in the printed version of the motion order, put, successively, any questions deferred under on the Order Paper; also, not moving it will allow paragraph (4) of this order on any previous day or half day allotted under this order, any questions further discussions with the Chair of the Liaison Committee deferred under paragraph (4) of this order on the day and others on the consequences of the changes that we and any questions necessary to dispose of are proposing. proceedings on all other estimates appointed for consideration on any day or half day allotted under Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): I welcome this order.’; my hon. Friend’s willingness to use this unexpected (8) Standing Order No. 15 (Exempted business) shall be interlude to ensure that, at the end of the day, Select amended, in line 41, by leaving out ‘(5)’ and inserting ‘(6)’; and Committees can be confident that they will have the opportunity to debate and report on the abolition of (9) Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall be amended, in line 23, by leaving out ‘(5)’ and inserting ‘(6)’. public bodies before such matters come to the Floor of the House or a Delegated Legislation Committee. Motion 6—Questions on Voting of Estimates, &c.— That Standing Order No. 55 (Questions on voting of Mr Heath: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, estimates, &c.) shall— with whom I have been in correspondence on these (1) apply for the remainder of this Session with the following matters. I am keen to ensure that we have a system that amendments— fits the needs of the House in dealing with such important (a) in line 1, leave out ‘paragraphs (2), (3) or (4)’ and insert issues. ‘paragraph (2) or (4)’; The first motion and the other four motions that we (b) in line 2, leave out ‘the Speaker shall at the moment of are debating with it arise from three considerations. interruption’ and insert ‘, at the moment of First, they arise from the need to adapt the House’s interruption or as soon thereafter as proceedings procedures to spring-to-spring Sessions. Secondly, they under the proviso to paragraph (3)(b) of Standing arise from the alignment project, which was initiated by Order No. 54 (Consideration of estimates) have been the last Administration and has been taken forward by disposed of, the Speaker shall (after putting any this Government. Thirdly, it is proposed to take this questions required to be put under paragraph (6) of Standing Order No. 54)’; opportunity to undertake some minor tidying-up of the relevant Standing Orders. Some of the changes before (c) in line 9, leave out ‘6 February’ and insert ‘18 March’; the House are quite technical, not to say rather long. (d) in line 14, at end, insert— The House will be pleased to know that I do not intend ‘(c) votes relating to numbers for defence services; to go through them individually; rather, I shall explain (d) excess votes, provided that the Committee of Public their purposes. The provisions are explained in detail Accounts has reported that it sees no objection to in an explanatory memorandum that has been placed in the amounts and modifications to limits on the Vote Office. appropriations in aid necessary being authorised by excess vote.’; On 13 September last year, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House announced the Government’s (e) in line 15, leave out paragraph (3); and intention to move the usual date of Prorogation and (f) in line 33, leave out ‘paragraphs (2), (3) or (4)’ and state opening from November to the spring, to create a insert ‘paragraph (2) or (4)’. fixed-term Parliament of five equal, 12-month Sessions. (2) be amended with effect from the start of next Session as That decision has some consequences for financial business. follows— The first motion before us today would adapt the House’s (a) in line 1, leave out ‘paragraphs (2), (3) or (4)’ and insert existing procedures for carry-over to enable the Finance ‘paragraph (2) or (4)’; Bill to be carried over from one Session to the next. The (b) in line 2, leave out ‘the Speaker shall at the moment of House has already passed legislation, in last year’s interruption’ and insert ‘, at the moment of Finance Bill, to ensure that resolutions under the Provisional interruption or as soon thereafter as proceedings Collection of Taxes Act 1968 have continued legal effect under the proviso to paragraph (3)(b) of Standing Order No. 54 (Consideration of estimates) have been from one Session to the next. The motion makes matching disposed of, the Speaker shall (after putting any provision in the House’s procedures. My right hon. questions required to be put under paragraph (6) of Friend consulted the Procedure Committee on the proposal Standing Order No. 54)’; in February. The Chair replied on 9 March indicating (c) in line 6, leave out the words ‘and limits on that the Committee was content with the proposal. appropriations in aid,’; Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): May I say on (d) in line 9, leave out ‘6 February’ and insert ‘18 March’; behalf of the Procedure Committee that we are grateful (e) in line 14, at end, insert— that we were consulted on this matter? Is the Deputy ‘(c) votes relating to numbers for defence services; Leader of the House aware that we concluded that if 815 Business of the House14 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 816

[Mr Greg Knight] The first factor is the move to spring-to-spring Sessions. The current practice of the House requires that once the Government wish to continue to have the Budget Supply has been provisionally authorised, an Appropriation statement in March—I can understand why they would— Act following on from that provisional authorisation then carry-over seems the simplest way of proceeding? needs to be passed in the same Session. At present, the We concluded, with cross-party agreement, that this first stages of authorisation of the votes on account and would not lead to any loss of scrutiny. the limits on numbers for defence services take place in early spring, with final authorisation incorporated in Mr Heath: I am most grateful to my right hon. Friend the Appropriation Act, passed in June or July. The on several levels: first, for the work that he and his retention of that timing makes sense but, given the Committee do on such matters; and secondly, for the move to spring-to-spring Sessions, it will involve final nature of his response to the proposal that we are authorisation being given in the following Session. The discussing. It is important that a Committee of the third motion enables this common-sense practice to House has been able to consider whether any loss of continue. We are also making provision for five estimates scrutiny would be involved; it is also important for the days during the current, extended Session, following House to ensure that no such loss would be involved. discussion with the Liaison Committee. Indeed, this He and his colleagues have concluded just that, and I responds to a request from the Liaison Committee. am pleased that they were able to do so on an all-party The second factor is the alignment project, which was basis. an initiative of the last Administration, but which is The first motion modifies the general provisions for bearing fruit in the new Parliament. The project’s aim is carry-over in existing Standing Orders in two main to achieve better alignment between Budgets, estimates ways. First, it allows carry-over without separate debate and accounts, and to simplify and streamline the before Second Reading. The House will have already Government’s financial reporting documents, thereby debated the substance of the provisions in question improving Parliament’s ability to scrutinise planning during the Budget debate, and there may be cases where and actual public expenditure. Select Committees were prorogation falls before Second Reading. Secondly, the closely involved at various stages in the development of motion ensures that both the specific character of Bills the proposals, which were endorsed by the House in the brought in on Ways and Means resolutions and the last Parliament through the passage of part 5 of what practices of the House in considering such Bills are became the Constitutional Reform and Governance reflected in Standing Orders. Act 2010 and, in the present Parliament, through the resolution approving the proposals for the project that The second motion falls into the category of a tidying-up was passed following a debate on 5 July 2010. During measure. Because it is seen as the practice of the House that debate, the hon. Member for Harrow West that there should be an interval between each stage of (Mr Thomas), speaking for the Opposition, welcomed the Finance Bill, the House is asked to agree a motion “this further opportunity to confirm support for the sensible for each such Bill, allowing Third Reading to take place changes that the last Government created under the alignment on the same day as Report. Such motions to vary the project”.—[Official Report, 5 July 2010; Vol. 513, c. 93.] so-called practice of the House have now been tabled The changes are being implemented with effect from the for 100 years, since the chancellorship of David Lloyd estimates for the financial year 2011-12. As a result of George. The House has not failed to pass such a motion the changes already endorsed by the House, the estimates since 1972, and has not debated Third Reading on a day documents requiring formal authorisation are to be subsequent to Report since 1991. Even for the House, I published only during two periods each year—between submit that 100 years of settled practice is enough to January and February, and between April and May. overturn the presumption that the practice is otherwise. Implementation of the project means that there will be two rather than three estimates events during a Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): It’s too early to normal-length Session. There will be no winter say. supplementary estimates and no December estimates day or votes on outstanding estimates at that time. The Mr Heath: I think we may have reached a settled view motions before us reflect the move to two estimates by this stage. The second motion therefore changes windows each Session, when estimates day debates will Standing Orders to allow Third Reading to follow Report take place and outstanding estimates will be voted on. on the same day without a separate motion in each case. As a result of these changes, there will be two estimates The remaining motions relate to Supply, which some days close together, usually in the early spring. The would say is one of the more obscure aspects of the fourth motion thus provides that votable motions on House’s procedure. Indeed, Supply might be thought to such days will be deferred until the House votes on all be the House’s equivalent of the Schleswig-Holstein outstanding estimates, usually at the end of the second question. I am glad to say that there are at least a few such day. This builds upon the existing practice whereby more people who understand the business of Supply, votes are deferred on estimates days until the moment and I believe they are alive and of sound mind—allegedly. of interruption. I understand that among their number is Sir Stephen I hope that that is sufficient to explain the thinking Laws, first parliamentary counsel—there is no question behind these proposals, and I commend the motions to but that he is of sound mind—who is about to retire, the House. and for whose services to successive Governments and, indirectly, to this House the Government are very grateful. 1.41 pm The changes to be made are not easy to follow, and are Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): I am explained in detail in the explanatory memorandum, so grateful to the Deputy Leader of the House for explaining I will endeavour to describe what lies behind them. the rationale for these motions, He did so with a certain 817 Business of the House14 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 818 degree of nonchalance, suggesting that they are quite I am not sure that enough thought has been given to technical. I am quite keen—I know many hon. Members the consequences. There are some serious constitutional are eager to speak in the debate—to keep an open mind issues at stake. What on earth is the point of going and I am absolutely ready to be persuaded, but I have a forward with a sessional divide from year to year if the number of concerns about the motions, especially about Crown is free to bunch together legislation across the the first one, which deals with carry-over. It is true that years? The powers of Back Benchers are also an important the proposed changes are a downstream consequence of issue. What powers do ordinary Members have over the the shift to a fixed-term Parliament, with Sessions divided timetabling of business if Ministers are not under pressure equally and running from May to May. As ever with to conclude their business at the end of a Session and this Government, however, we are left wondering whether can merely table a motion and slip a whole Finance Bill they have properly thought through the consequences. forward? The hon. Member for North East Hertfordshire There are good reasons for the sessional divisions of (Oliver Heald), who I believe was shadow Leader of the the parliamentary calendar from year to year. Let us House at the time, said that not be under any illusions: today’s proposals would “the lack of pressure could encourage even more sloppiness in the massively expand carry-over provisions for legislation, drafting, programming and timetabling of legislation.”—[Official potentially ending the convention whereby Bills should Report, 26 October 2004; Vol. 425, c. 1325.] normally be introduced, considered and completed within This pressure is useful to Parliament, to the House of the year in which Her Majesty outlines the Government’s Commons and to Back Benchers—a pressure that can plans in the Queen’s Speech. Carrying over a Bill should be used to force Governments to accede to amendments happen in special and infrequent circumstances. The and to ensure that they go forward before the end of a previous Government introduced carry-over procedures Session is reached. Ministers are keen not to lose their to accommodate complex and technical legislation, largely Bills. We need to consider these issues carefully. I can, of where there was a cross-party consensus on the need for course, see the logic of the Minister’s arguments; I am reform or where the addition of pre-legislative scrutiny simply saying that I am not sure that we have given or wider-ranging provisions necessitated a longer time enough proper and deep consideration to some of the frame for the Bill’s passage. Carry-over has been an issues. exception rather than a rule. The House needs to recognise Sessional disciplines matter. The Treasury, as we know, that, if the proposals proceed, standard legislation such has already provided some evidence of poor drafting as Finance Bills will routinely span the historical firewall and a number of deficiencies have been seen in its that is in place to protect sessional business spilling over proposals. The new powers to elongate consideration of from one year to the next. Back-Bench Members will the Bill to suit the Treasury’s timetable rather than that notice that carry-over is not possible for Back Bench- of Parliament could well lead to a lackadaisical, slapdash initiated legislation. approach to what should be an efficient focus on the Ways and Means legislation has a set of histories that clear conduct of business. Parliament should, after all, go back a long time. The motion would take carry-over have a realistic and measured work load before it and a provisions into quite different and possibly uncharted legislative programme designed to ensure that each Bill terrain. Finance Bills are particularly important legislation: receives fair and equal scrutiny. they provide, of course, the means by which the public are taxed, businesses are forced to part with their money Mr Knight: If the hon. Gentleman is not happy with and resources are taken from consumers and workers to this way of proceeding, what does he suggest as an pay for the collective public services such as the defence alternative? Is he suggesting that the Government should of our country. This country was at the forefront of consider having a May or June Budget, which would democratic innovation through which sovereignty passed have serious implications for the tax year? from the monarchs to the people represented in this House of Commons. We should therefore reflect seriously Chris Leslie: This is indeed a conundrum. We are on the rationale for the protections and safeguards that misaligning the calendar of the House of Commons have accrued over the centuries to defend the rights of with the fiscal year. We have managed to cope historically, those being taxed. It is, after all, only the House of but I do not have an answer. I would have liked deeper Commons that considers money Bills. Because these consideration of the proposals in a form that could be changes to the law do not gain scrutiny in the other properly debated, rather than to find ourselves confronted place, we should be sure that we proceed with extra care with these motions on the Order Paper. I genuinely in this place. understand the Government’s problems. I do not wish The Crown attends Parliament at the beginning of to be obstructive, but I think it important to take some each Session and makes a specific request of Members time to review what are, after all, arrangements that of the House of Commons that have been in place for many hundreds of years. “estimates for the public services will be laid before you”. This is the beginning of an age-old process built around Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): The shadow the sessionality of supply, guaranteeing time for Minister is making a powerful speech. Is not one of the consideration of votes on account and ensuring that dangers—we hear it often—that the Government want there is no taxation without representation. It might to do something on the surface for very good reasons, well be that the Government do not consider this cycle but at the same time what happens strengthens the of proposal, consideration and approval important enough Executive and reduces the power of Parliament? to retain the sessional disciplines. If so, I would have thought that they would have the courtesy to ensure Chris Leslie: The hon. Gentleman has hit on an proper and adequate consideration of the impact of important point. If we have a too relaxed approach to these changes. the parliamentary calendar, we could see a repeat of the 819 Business of the House14 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 820

[Chris Leslie] passage of legislation. It may be entirely pragmatic, but although I am willing to be persuaded otherwise, I do situation whereby this House of Commons is especially not think that consequences of some of these changes busy for a couple of months, but is then twiddling its have been properly thought through. thumbs for several months longer—perhaps when the Can the Minister explain the rationale for the omission Government are struggling to get their business through of the backstop date applying to the three days allotted the other place. to the consideration of estimates? I understand that he The right hon. Member for East Yorkshire (Mr Knight) is changing the date from 5 August following line-of-sight asked the right question: how should we proceed from discussions after the passage of the Fixed-term Parliaments here? I understand the arguments in favour of some of Act 2011—that makes sense—but why not simply shift the proposed changes, but I wish that the Government the date forward to February or March rather than had devoted more time and care to discussing the issues omitting it altogether? through the usual channels and allowing the problems The Minister also said that he proposed to put back that had been raised to be considered properly and the “roll-up” day for the modification of estimates by thoughtfully. only five or six weeks—to, I believe, 18 March—which It would be useful if the Minister answered some strikes me as a fairly arbitrary choice. He also touched questions, because I remain to be persuaded. For instance, on the fact that we would lose one of those modification why should not consideration of a Finance Bill start a days, as the number would be reduced from three to month or so later? I am not suggesting that that is two. It is a small point, but, again, I wonder whether it necessarily the solution; I am merely speculating on should have been considered in more detail. what the consequences might be. We could still have a I have total respect for the Procedure Committee and Budget in March, but proceedings on the Finance Bill its Chairman, who engaged in informal discussions proper could start immediately after the Queen’s Speech with the Leader of the House about the proposals and in May, at the beginning of the new Session. That might did not object to them, but—with the greatest respect—I be preferable to a Committee stage taking place for a wish that the proposals had been subjected to more couple of weeks immediately after the March Budget, adequate scrutiny, and to some form of challenge or followed by an elongated break and then a return to the review. There have been no public hearings or discussions, Committee stage about halfway through the clauses and no report has been provided to enable parliamentarians that had previously been under consideration. There is, to digest and consider the proposals. of course, virtue in avoiding a disruptive period of I believe that the changes require serious consideration, down time in the middle of a Committee stage. I should because they could have profound and unintended like to know whether the Government and, indeed, the constitutional consequences. I have not yet been convinced Procedure Committee have thought about that. by the Minister that we need to rush them through Will the Minister elaborate on the proposals in motion 2 before the Christmas recess, although I shall wait to on carry-over of Ways and Means legislation? He has hear what he has to say. He has, in a statesmanlike way, not chosen simply to amend Standing Order No. 80A to withdrawn motion 7, and I wonder whether it would be remove the reference to Ways and Means. Instead, an wise for him also to seek to withdraw the carry-over attempt seems to have been made to copy and paste proposals. Perhaps he could ask the Procedure Committee carry-over provisions in respect of other Bills into a new to consider the issues relating to those proposals in Standing Order relating specifically to Ways and Means more detail, because, as yet, I am not fully persuaded and money Bills. As far as I can see, however, various that it would be responsible to support them. elements have not been transposed: for example, Standing Order No. 80A (3), which provides for no more than 1.56 pm one Bill to be subject to a carry-over motion, and (4), which prevents a carry-over motion to apply to a Bill Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): The hon. carried over from a previous Session. There seems to be Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) referred to nothing technically in place to prevent a Finance Bill what he described as a “queue” of Members waiting to that has been carried over from one Session from being speak, and went on to express his concerns about the carried over again to another. I accept that such a proposals. I think he is seeing shadows on the wall in development may be very unlikely, but I do not understand both respects. It seems to me that if the Government why it was not covered in the copy-and-paste exercise. It were to abuse the process that they are asking us to could be described as the Schleswig-Holstein question approve—having put the matter to the Procedure squared, and I should be grateful if the Minister could Committee on the basis on which they have put it to the seek some inspiration in order to clarify the point. House today—Members in all parts of the House would I have heard the Minister argue about the move to the seek to hold them to account. The Government have automatic Third Reading of Finance Bills on the same made clear that these are changes of process to day as Report each year. He says that that it has been accommodate occasions on which the House does not happening for 100 years—which, according to my hon. prorogue at the normal time, and I therefore think that Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright), may the hon. Gentleman’s concerns are misplaced. mean that it is too early to tell whether it is working. The Leader of the House initially wrote to the Procedure Even if it is normal practice, the Government have at Committee on 8 February this year asking whether the least had the courtesy to table a motion seeking the Committee was content for the Government to develop House’s permission, rather than assuming that Third proposals to set aside the principle of sessionality in Reading shall always take place on the same day as respect of supply procedure, and to provide for the Report. However, I feel that the practice may erode the carry-over of Finance Bills from one session to the next. purpose of Third Readings as a distinct stage in the The Committee subsequently engaged in a detailed 821 Business of the House14 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 822 discussion about a number of issues relating to the the House proroguing in the spring, and one that does proposed procedure, following which we decided that not interfere with Members’ ability to scrutinise the we were content with it and with the Government’s Bill. reasons for proposing it.. We therefore concluded that these proposals were If the House prorogues in April or May, as the modest and reasonable, and I hope the House will reach Government propose, proceedings on supply will be the same conclusion. interrupted. At present the supply cycle begins with the provisional authorisation of expenditure in November, Sir Alan Beith rose— with legislative authorisation being given in the summer. The Votes on Account are presented in November, and Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): the House is asked to approve 45% of Government rose— spending to cover the period between the beginning of the next financial year in April and the passing of the Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I call Thomas Appropriation Act in the summer. The principle of Docherty. sessionality meant that expenditure approved in the Votes on Account had to be appropriated before prorogation. 2.2 pm The problem could, of course, be overcome by means Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): of an Appropriation Act passed in the spring, as happens I am grateful to be called in this—[Interruption.] before a general election, but that was not considered to be an ideal solution. It would mean that the main Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. I can assure those waiting estimate each year would contain details of only 55% of to speak that the hon. Gentleman did give notice that Government expenditure, the remaining 45% having he would be speaking, so if we can just hold our water. I already been appropriated after the Votes on Account. will be coming to Sir Alan next. A further disadvantage of that approach would be that the Votes on Account contain less detail than the main Thomas Docherty: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker; I estimates, and 45% of the total of public expenditure hope to keep my remarks relatively brief. would therefore be appropriated on the basis of less This short debate is obviously a consequence of the detailed spending plans. It might be considered unfortunate Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, which was recently if, at the same time as the beginning of the alignment passed, and is an example of why, rather than hastily project, a separate change meant that the main estimate charging through such legislation and fixing it in this only ever included 55% of the expenditure for which piecemeal way after the event, it might have been more parliamentary approval was needed. The Government appropriate to work through all the consequences of instead propose that the resolutions on which the that change. I hope the Deputy Leader of the House Appropriation Act is founded should not fall at the end will reflect on what happens when proper pre-legislative of a Session but should be time-limited. The Procedure scrutiny of such a major Act does not take place. Committee, on a cross-party basis, thought this was quite a reasonable way to proceed. I have the greatest respect for the Chairman of the Procedure Committee, the right hon. Member for East With a Budget in March or April, the Finance Bill, Yorkshire (Mr Knight). I have the privilege of serving brought in on resolutions following the Budget, will not under his leadership—I joined the Committee in the have completed its passage before the House prorogues summer—and he has been an excellent Chairman. I do in April or May and will have to be carried over to the not at all doubt the sincerity of his words today and his new Session. It is also necessary for the Provisional genuine conviction that due diligence has been shown Collection of Taxes Act 1968 to be amended, because on this important, if slightly technical issue, but I hope under it, the Budget resolutions cease to have effect he will not mind if I show some dissent in that regard. when the House prorogues. When I asked the Clerk of our Committee on Monday whether it was possible to get copies of the transcript of The Finance Bill could be introduced in the new the informal private hearing that the right hon. Gentleman Session rather than being carried over, but would therefore convened in the spring, the Clerk made it clear that not be published until May. Although a draft Finance although I, as a member of the Committee, could see it, Bill could be published following the Budget, with the other Members of the House could not. With the Finance Bill itself being introduced in the new Session, greatest respect to the Chairman, that is an unsatisfactory the Government of the day would not thereby have the basis on which to change the Standing Orders of this flexibility to introduce some proceedings on the Bill, House. If not all Members of this House are able to such as Second Reading, before the House prorogued. read the deliberations of the august Procedure Committee, The Procedure Committee therefore concluded that the how can our colleagues simply take our word for it? Government’s proposals for the carry-over of the Finance Bill would not affect the opportunities available to I do not object in principle to what the Government Members to scrutinise the Bill and vote on its provisions, are suggesting. Like many Government initiatives, it and there would be no impact on the length of the appears on the surface to be a reasonable suggestion. Committee stage, for example. However, as we have discovered repeatedly over the past 18 months. Given that the Government wish to make the Budget statement in March, it seemed to us—again, there was Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab): Why does cross-party agreement—that the carry-over of the Finance my hon. Friend think that the document has not been Bill is probably the simplest solution to the problem of put into print, so that the rest of us can see it? 823 Business of the House14 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 824

Thomas Docherty: I am always tempted to see the I am conscious that the right hon. Member for Berwick- worst in this Government, but on this occasion I think upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) wants to speak, so I will it is probably a genuine oversight. They did not think sit down. things through and realise that, if the Procedure Committee simply had an informal session on this issue, it would 2.8 pm not be able to share the wisdom of its thoughts. The Deputy Leader of the House shakes his head; perhaps Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): I am there was some Machiavellian motive that he wishes to slightly surprised at the sudden growth of opposition to outline to the Committee. I was giving him the benefit this motion among Labour Members. I wonder whether of the doubt, but apparently it was a deliberate attempt there is any other aspect of today’s timetabling, or other not to have to reveal something. matters, that may have entered into consideration, but I could be wrong about that. Mr Heath: I remind the hon. Gentleman that the I want to welcome the action the Government are procedures of, and publication of documents by, Select taking, but before doing so let me say that the hon. Committees are matters for them, not for Government. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) made what It would quite improper for the Government even to is in principle an important point: sessional discipline is begin to suggest how a Select Committee should do its significant in the way in which the House operates. It business. brings pressure to bear in circumstances where, otherwise, Thomas Docherty: I can assure the Deputy Leader of Government majorities tend to prevail; it causes them the House that the Chairman of the Procedure Committee to stop and think as a degree of blockage occurs in the would not respond favourably to such a suggestion, Lords at that stage of a Session. such is his independence of thought. However, why We are talking about Bills—Finance Bills—founded have the Government made it clear to my hon. Friend on a Ways and Means resolution for a limited, specific the Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) that and entirely explainable purpose related to the whole they do not believe it appropriate to pause slightly, so financial timetable of both the House and the Government. that the Committee can carry out a public, transparent I was bemused by the idea of what state a Government and short inquiry in the new year? Perhaps the Deputy trying to carry over a Finance Bill through three Sessions Leader of the House’s diary is so busy in the new year could possibly be in, other than the one envisaged by that he cannot do that. some Opposition Members in dealing with our current The Government seem to be assuming that we will financial circumstances. This is not the debate to go prorogue in the spring, and I look to the Treasury into that, however. Bench for some clarity on that. My understanding is I will deal first with the increase from three to five in that all their Bills are currently jammed up in the House the number of estimates days for this Session, which is a of Lords and there is absolutely no sign of their making long Session. That is welcome, but I must put on the any substantive progress on clearing the backlog. That record the Liaison Committee’s request that there be is why, with the greatest of respect, we are having a five estimates days in normal Sessions, and our desire series of Opposition debates and one-line Whips—because that that request be properly considered when we resume the Government have no business in the House of Sessions of the normal duration. There has been some Commons. Government resistance to that request—wait until we have at least seen more of the impact of the Backbench Mr Knight: I remind the hon. Gentleman and ask Business Committee. We have already seen the beneficial him to reflect on the fact that not one single member of impact of that Committee, though, and I see no conflict the Procedure Committee, including the Labour members, there at all. Indeed, the Liaison Committee and the asked for any sessions on this issue to be held in public. Backbench Business Committee are developing good I say to him seriously that if, having put to the House ways of working together to ensure we maximise use of that this is a technical alteration to accommodate the House time as Members want it to be used. Government’s wish to change when the House prorogues, the Government were to use this as a lever or mechanism Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): Will the to reduce the House’s scrutiny of its business, there right hon. Gentleman give way? would be one hell of a row which many Government Members as well as Opposition Members would join, Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): Will the right hon. saying that the Government had misled the House and Gentleman give way? would have to retract what they were doing. The hon. Gentleman’s fears do not therefore amount to very Sir Alan Beith: I have a choice. I will give way first to much, because the Committee has proceeded with this the hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray), then measure on the basis on which it was introduced to the to his hon. Friend. House today: that it is a technical change. If it became something else, there would be one hell of a— Mr Gray: Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Come that the number of estimates days will properly be a on—this is a speech! You have already made one; we do question for the House business committee, when it is not need a second speech, Mr Knight, do we? established, and will he not press the Government to hasten the progress of their plan to do precisely that? Thomas Docherty: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his comments. I have to tell him that the Sir Alan Beith: I am an avid and long-standing supporter consequences of having an informal hearing were not in of the principle of a House business committee. I think my view explained, and the Liaison Committee might you would rule me out of order, Mr Deputy Speaker, wish to look at this issue in future. were I to stray too far into that subject, but let me say 825 Business of the House14 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 826 that that is indeed a matter that could be so resolved The hon. Member for Poole (Mr Syms) asked why, were that committee in existence. For the moment, during estimates day debates, we talk about Select however, we must look to the Leader of the House to do Committee reports on matters that are either at some such things for us. distance from or fairly peripheral to the essential element, which is scrutiny of Government accounts. Although Mr Syms: It has always seemed strange to me that on that is a good question, it is one for another day, as it estimates days we have before us vast tomes showing does not fall within the narrow confines of the motion. where the Government have switched money from one I am grateful to the Chair of the Procedure Committee, Department or one heading to another, but we tend to the right hon. Member for East Yorkshire (Mr Knight), debate leisure centres or swimming or something else— for his assistance. The idea that this is somehow a nothing to do with money. If this House is serious rushed process, when we put the proposals before that about money, surely we ought to look at the estimates Committee for its consideration back in February and it rather than debate some odd other subject? is now, let me remind the House, December, or that we Sir Alan Beith: Absolutely so, and I have been advocating did not think of these things in advance, when we that for some time. passed the proposals for consideration before the announcement of the change to the sessional timetable, That brings me to my next point, which is about is something of a nonsense. These are matters on which ensuring that Select Committees, which are the proper we needed the advice of the House; we have received place to look at some of the substance of the estimates that advice through the Procedure Committee, and that decisions and the movements of money from one thing is why the motion has been brought before the House. to another, have appropriate time to consider such matters—as much time as possible, so that they can Mr Bone: Were the usual channels consulted and is conduct meaningful scrutiny. Our discussions with the there agreement? If there is agreement between the Treasury and the Leader of the House about that are usual channels, I have some concerns. reflected in the motions, but we will watch carefully to make sure that Select Committees are not expected Mr Heath: I of course have no idea what goes on in within ridiculous periods—a few days—to produce the usual channels, but I hope that the hon. Gentleman considered views on the serious substance of estimates. agrees with me that it is far more important that a Select To sum up, the two major points that the Liaison Committee of this House has had the opportunity to Committee will certainly be considering and that we comment on proposals that affect the scrutiny of want the Government to consider are that due regard is Government business by the House. Not only was the given to the Committee’s previous recommendation of Procedure Committee consulted, but it agreed unanimously five estimates days per Session, and that Select Committees that the change would assist scrutiny by the House and have time to consider estimates properly and so assist would in no way diminish the opportunities for Members the House in doing what many right hon. and hon. to have their say on Government business. Members have long felt should be done when we deal Chris Leslie: We have indeed heard that the Procedure with estimates. Committee looked at the proposals, but it did so in 2.12 pm private, informal session and there was no sharing of many of the proposals with other hon. Members until Mr Heath: With the leave of the House, Mr Deputy the business appeared on the Order Paper a few days Speaker, I shall respond to the debate. I am most ago, I think. Will the Deputy Leader of the House grateful to the right hon. and hon. Members who have confirm the day on which it appeared? I saw it only contributed to this brief debate. I am particularly grateful recently and no one approached me to discuss it. To to my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon- dismiss as nonsense the concern we have expressed Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) for his comments. He is right to about haste is a little overblown. say that there are wider questions and more far-reaching changes to the way the House scrutinises spending Mr Heath: I think the hon. Gentleman is making a plans which we need to discuss at some point, but I valiant effort to bring some substance to his objections think that those wider reforms would be best debated in to the proposals, but he is not succeeding. At various the context of proposals from the Liaison Committee, times he accused me of being nonchalant. I hope that I rather than from Government. It may well be that there am not nonchalant. Simply that something is technical are better ways of organising our business. The hon. does not imply nonchalance. Flying a jet liner is a Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray), who is not in technical business, but one should certainly not be his place— nonchalant about doing so. As I said, we have thought through the consequences. Mr Gray: Iamhere. The hon. Gentleman said that we are massively increasing Mr Heath: I beg the hon. Gentleman’s pardon; he is carry-over, but we are not. We are specifically and not sitting where I expected to find him. He made an precisely dealing with the consequences for Finance important point about the advent in due course of a Bills of the change to sessional periods. He said—at House business committee. We are looking at that, as least, I think I heard him say—that having longer to we said we would, but even under existing arrangements scrutinise a Finance Bill made it more difficult to scrutinise it is open to any Select Committee, through the Backbench it effectively. I am not sure that that is always the Business Committee, to seek time on the Floor of the position of Her Majesty’s Opposition. House to debate a motion relating to departmental To deal specifically with his questions, the hon. spending plans. The great advantage of that method is Gentleman asked why should not the Finance Bill start that the time constraints and procedural limitations in the new Session? The answer is: for the very obvious arising from estimates procedure are absent. reason that if it did, the time available to the House to 827 Business of the House14 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 828

[Mr Heath] Burstow, Paul Hemming, John Burt, Lorely Henderson, Gordon debate and scrutinise the Bill would be reduced. That Byles, Dan Hendry, Charles cannot be right. He asked whether paragraphs (3) and Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hinds, Damian (4) of new Standing Order 80A apply to Finance Bills. Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hoban, Mr Mark Had he read the explanatory memorandum, he would Carmichael, Neil Hollingbery, George Cash, Mr William Hollobone, Mr Philip have seen stated therein that those paragraphs will Chishti, Rehman Holloway, Mr Adam apply to Finance Bills. Chope, Mr Christopher Hopkins, Kris The hon. Gentleman asked whether the provisions of Clappison, Mr James Horwood, Martin paragraphs (12) to (14) of Standing Order No. 80A Clark, rh Greg Howarth, Mr Gerald apply. Yes, the Standing Order will prevent a Finance Coffey, Dr Thérèse Howell, John Bill from being carried over more than once, as is stated Collins, Damian Hughes, rh Simon in the explanatory memorandum. However, I have to Colvile, Oliver Huhne, rh Chris say that if we had a Government whose Finance Bill Cox, Mr Geoffrey Huppert, Dr Julian was carried over between three Sessions, they would no Crabb, Stephen Hurd, Mr Nick longer be a Government, because they would not be a Crockart, Mike Jackson, Mr Stewart Crouch, Tracey James, Margot functioning Government. They would be a dead Davies, David T. C. Javid, Sajid Government if they were unable to get their Finance (Monmouth) Jenkin, Mr Bernard Bill through in three Sessions of Parliament. I think we Davies, Philip Johnson, Joseph can safely assume that those circumstances will not Dinenage, Caroline Jones, Andrew apply. Doyle-Price, Jackie Jones, Mr David On supply, the hon. Gentleman asked why the cut-off Duddridge, James Kawczynski, Daniel of 5 August under Standing Order No. 54 is being Duncan, rh Mr Alan Kelly, Chris removed without being replaced. The timetable Dunne, Mr Philip Knight, rh Mr Greg requirements for estimates procedures do continue and Ellis, Michael Kwarteng, Kwasi Ellison, Jane Laing, Mrs Eleanor are set out in Standing Order No. 55. He asked why the Eustice, George Lamb, Norman first cut-off for supply is changing from a date in Evans, Graham Lancaster, Mark February to a date in March. That change does not Evans, Jonathan Lansley, rh Mr Andrew affect the spring deadline. The February date was the Evennett, Mr David Latham, Pauline cut-off for the winter supplementary estimates, which Fallon, Michael Laws, rh Mr David will no longer be published. Featherstone, Lynne Leadsom, Andrea Despite the hon. Gentleman’s valiant efforts to try to Foster, rh Mr Don Lee, Jessica find a cause on which he could unite his party against Fox,rhDrLiam Lee, Dr Phillip these very modest and sensible proposals, he has failed Francois, rh Mr Mark Lefroy, Jeremy to establish any case for doing so. I commend the orders Freeman, George Lewis, Brandon Freer, Mike Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian to the House and I hope that the House will be able to Fuller, Richard Lidington, rh Mr David agree them without opposition. Gale, Mr Roger Lilley, rh Mr Peter Question put. Garnier, Mark Lloyd, Stephen The House proceeded to a Division. Gauke, Mr David Lord, Jonathan George, Andrew Luff, Peter Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): I ask the Gibb, Mr Nick Lumley, Karen Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Main, Mrs Anne Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye Glen, John Maude, rh Mr Francis Lobby. Goldsmith, Zac May, rh Mrs Theresa The House having divided: Ayes 266, Noes 187. Goodwill, Mr Robert McCartney, Jason Gove, rh Michael McCartney, Karl Division No. 412] [2.20 pm Graham, Richard McIntosh, Miss Anne Gray, Mr James McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick AYES Grayling, rh Chris McPartland, Stephen Adams, Nigel Bingham, Andrew Green, Damian McVey, Esther Afriyie, Adam Binley, Mr Brian Greening, rh Justine Menzies, Mark Aldous, Peter Blackman, Bob Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Metcalfe, Stephen Andrew, Stuart Blackwood, Nicola Griffiths, Andrew Mills, Nigel Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Blunt, Mr Crispin Gyimah, Mr Sam Milton, Anne Bacon, Mr Richard Bone, Mr Peter Halfon, Robert Moore, rh Michael Baker, Steve Bottomley, Sir Peter Hames, Duncan Mordaunt, Penny Baldry, Tony Brady, Mr Graham Hammond, Stephen Morgan, Nicky Baldwin, Harriett Brake, rh Tom Hancock, Matthew Morris, Anne Marie Barclay, Stephen Bray, Angie Hands, Greg Morris, David Barker, Gregory Brazier, Mr Julian Harper, Mr Mark Morris, James Baron, Mr John Brine, Steve Harrington, Richard Mosley, Stephen Barwell, Gavin Brooke, Annette Harris, Rebecca Mowat, David Bebb, Guto Bruce, Fiona Hart, Simon Mundell, rh David Beith, rh Sir Alan Buckland, Mr Robert Harvey, Nick Munt, Tessa Bellingham, Mr Henry Burley, Mr Aidan Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Murray, Sheryll Benyon, Richard Burns, Conor Heald, Oliver Murrison, Dr Andrew Beresford, Sir Paul Burns, rh Mr Simon Heath, Mr David Neill, Robert Berry, Jake Burrowes, Mr David Heaton-Harris, Chris Newmark, Mr Brooks 829 Business of the House14 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 830

Newton, Sarah Stephenson, Andrew Denham, rh Mr John McDonnell, John Norman, Jesse Stewart, Iain Dobbin, Jim McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Nuttall, Mr David Streeter, Mr Gary Docherty, Thomas McKechin, Ann Offord, Mr Matthew Stride, Mel Donohoe, Mr Brian H. McKinnell, Catherine Ollerenshaw, Eric Stuart, Mr Graham Doran, Mr Frank Mearns, Ian Opperman, Guy Sturdy, Julian Doyle, Gemma Michael, rh Alun Ottaway, Richard Swales, Ian Dromey, Jack Mitchell, Austin Parish, Neil Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Dugher, Michael Moon, Mrs Madeleine Patel, Priti Swinson, Jo Durkan, Mark Morden, Jessica Pawsey, Mark Syms, Mr Robert Eagle, Ms Angela Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Percy, Andrew Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Eagle, Maria Morris, Grahame M. Phillips, Stephen Teather, Sarah Edwards, Jonathan (Easington) Pickles, rh Mr Eric Thurso, John Efford, Clive Mudie, Mr George Pincher, Christopher Tomlinson, Justin Elliott, Julie Murphy, rh Paul Poulter, Dr Daniel Truss, Elizabeth Ellman, Mrs Louise Murray, Ian Prisk, Mr Mark Tyrie, Mr Andrew Esterson, Bill Nandy, Lisa Pritchard, Mark Uppal, Paul Evans, Chris Nash, Pamela Flint, rh Caroline O’Donnell, Fiona Raab, Mr Dominic Vara, Mr Shailesh Reckless, Mark Flynn, Paul Onwurah, Chi Vickers, Martin Rees-Mogg, Jacob Fovargue, Yvonne Osborne, Sandra Walker, Mr Charles Reid, Mr Alan Gapes, Mike Owen, Albert Walker, Mr Robin Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Gardiner, Barry Pearce, Teresa Ward, Mr David Robertson, Mr Laurence Gilmore, Sheila Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Rogerson, Dan Watkinson, Angela Glass, Pat Reed, Mr Jamie Rosindell, Andrew Weatherley, Mike Goggins, rh Paul Reynolds, Jonathan Rudd, Amber Webb, Steve Greatrex, Tom Riordan, Mrs Linda Ruffley, Mr David Wharton, James Green, Kate Robertson, Angus Russell, Bob Wheeler, Heather Greenwood, Lilian Robertson, John Rutley, David Whittaker, Craig Griffith, Nia Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Sanders, Mr Adrian Wiggin, Bill Hain, rh Mr Peter Rotheram, Steve Sandys, Laura Williams, Mr Mark Hamilton, Fabian Roy, Mr Frank Scott, Mr Lee Williams, Roger Hanson, rh Mr David Roy, Lindsay Selous, Andrew Williams, Stephen Harris, Mr Tom Ruane, Chris Shapps, rh Grant Williamson, Gavin Havard, Mr Dai Sarwar, Anas Sharma, Alok Willott, Jenny Hendrick, Mark Seabeck, Alison Shelbrooke, Alec Wilson, Mr Rob Hepburn, Mr Stephen Sharma, Mr Virendra Simmonds, Mark Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hermon, Lady Sheerman, Mr Barry Simpson, Mr Keith Wright, Simon Heyes, David Sheridan, Jim Hillier, Meg Shuker, Gavin Smith, Miss Chloe Yeo, Mr Tim Smith, Henry Hilling, Julie Skinner, Mr Dennis Young, rh Sir George Smith, Julian Hodge, rh Margaret Slaughter, Mr Andy Zahawi, Nadhim Smith, Sir Robert Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Smith, rh Mr Andrew Soames, rh Nicholas Tellers for the Ayes: Hoey, Kate Smith, Angela Soubry, Anna Mark Hunter and Hopkins, Kelvin Smith, Nick Spencer, Mr Mark Jeremy Wright Hosie, Stewart Smith, Owen Hunt, Tristram Spellar, rh Mr John NOES Irranca-Davies, Huw Stringer, Graham Jackson, Glenda Stuart, Ms Gisela Abbott, Ms Diane Campbell, Mr Alan Jamieson, Cathy Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Abrahams, Debbie Campbell, Mr Ronnie Johnson, Diana Tami, Mark Alexander, Heidi Caton, Martin Jones, Graham Thomas, Mr Gareth Ali, Rushanara Chapman, Mrs Jenny Jones, Helen Thornberry, Emily Allen, Mr Graham Clark, Katy Jones, Susan Elan Timms, rh Stephen Anderson, Mr David Clarke, rh Mr Tom Joyce, Eric Turner, Karl Austin, Ian Clwyd, rh Ann Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Twigg, Derek Bailey, Mr Adrian Connarty, Michael Khan, rh Sadiq Umunna, Mr Chuka Bain, Mr William Corbyn, Jeremy Lavery, Ian Vaz, rh Keith Banks, Gordon Crausby, Mr David Lazarowicz, Mark Vaz, Valerie Barron, rh Mr Kevin Creagh, Mary Leslie, Chris Beckett, rh Margaret Creasy, Stella Lewis, Mr Ivan Walley, Joan Begg, Dame Anne Cruddas, Jon Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Weir, Mr Mike Benton, Mr Joe Cryer, John Long, Naomi Whitehead, Dr Alan Berger, Luciana Cunningham, Alex Love, Mr Andrew Williams, Hywel Betts, Mr Clive Cunningham, Mr Jim Lucas, Caroline Wilson, Phil Blackman-Woods, Roberta Cunningham, Tony Lucas, Ian Winnick, Mr David Blomfield, Paul Curran, Margaret Mactaggart, Fiona Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Blunkett, rh Mr David Dakin, Nic Mann, John Wood, Mike Brennan, Kevin Danczuk, Simon Marsden, Mr Gordon Wright, David Brown, Lyn David, Mr Wayne McCann, Mr Michael Wright, Mr Iain Bryant, Chris Davidson, Mr Ian McCarthy, Kerry Tellers for the Noes: Buck, Ms Karen Davies, Geraint McClymont, Gregg Tom Blenkinsop and Byrne, rh Mr Liam De Piero, Gloria McDonagh, Siobhain Mr David Hamilton 831 Business of the House14 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 832

Question accordingly agreed to. committed to a committee of the whole House in the first Session and not ordered to stand part of the bill Ordered, in that Session. That— (12) If the bill was read a second time in the first Session 1. Standing Order No. 80A (Carry-over of bills) shall be and was not set down for consideration at any time in amended as follows— that Session, any order of the House giving leave for (a) in line 7, after the word ‘motion’, insert the words a committee on the bill to sit twice on the first day on ‘(other than a motion relating to a bill brought in which it meets in the first Session shall apply to the upon a ways and means resolution)’, and first day on which the committee meets in the next Session. (b) in line 23, at end, insert the words ‘(other than a bill brought in upon a ways and means resolution)’; and (13) If the bill was set down for consideration at any time in the first Session, the bill shall be set down as an 2. the following new Standing Order be made— order of the day for (as the case may be) ‘(1) The Speaker shall put any question necessary to consideration, further consideration or third reading. dispose of proceedings on a carry-over motion of (14) Notices of amendments, new clauses and new which a Minister of the Crown has given notice schedules given in respect of parts of the bill not under Standing Order No. 80A (Carry-over of bills) disposed of in the first Session shall be reprinted as relating to a bill brought in upon a ways and means notices in respect of the bill as presented and resolution— proceeded with under paragraph (5).’. (a) forthwith if the motion is made on any day before the bill is read a second time, or on the day the bill is read a second time; or THIRD READING (BILLS BROUGHT IN UPON A (b) not more than one and a half hours after the WAYS AND MEANS RESOLUTION) commencement of proceedings on the motion if Ordered, the motion is made at any other time. That Standing Order No. 77 (Third reading) be amended by (2) The following paragraphs of this order shall apply to adding at the end— any bill ordered to be carried over to the next Session of Parliament in pursuance of a carry-over motion to ‘(2) The third reading of a bill brought in upon a ways and which paragraph (1) applies. means resolution may be taken at the same sitting of the House as its consideration on report.’.— (3) If proceedings in committee on the bill are begun but (Mr Heath.) not completed before the end of the first Session, the chair shall report the bill to the House as so far amended and the bill and any evidence received by SESSIONALITY (SUPPLY) the committee shall be ordered to lie upon the Table. Resolved, (4) In any other case, proceedings on the bill shall be suspended at the conclusion of the Session in which That, notwithstanding the practice of the House as to the the bill was first introduced. legislative authorisation of (a) appropriation of expenditure and (b) maximum numbers for defence services, legislative authorisation (5) In the next Session of Parliament, a Minister of the of appropriation of Votes on Account and maximum numbers Crown may, after notice, present a bill in the same for defence services may take place on a day not later than 5 terms as the bill reported to the House under August in the Session following that in which the founding paragraph (3) of this order or as it stood when resolutions for the forthcoming financial year were agreed to by proceedings were suspended under paragraph (4) of the House.—(Mr Heath.) this order; the bill shall be read the first time without question put and shall be ordered to be printed; and paragraphs (6) to (13) shall apply to the bill. CONSIDERATION OF ESTIMATES (6) In respect of all proceedings on the bill, any resolution which the bill was brought in upon in the first Session Ordered, shall be treated as if it were such a resolution of the That— House in the next Session and any reference in any (1) Standing Order No. 54 (Consideration of estimates) shall resolution upon which the bill was brought in to a apply for the remainder of this Session as if, for the word ‘Three’ Bill or Act of the present Session shall be treated in in line 1, there were substituted the word ‘Five’; the next Session as a reference to a Bill or Act of that Session. (2) Standing Order No. 54 (Consideration of estimates) shall be amended in accordance with paragraphs (3) to (7) of this (7) In respect of all proceedings on the bill, the bill shall be order; treated as a bill brought in upon ways and means resolutions. (3) in line 1, leave out ‘before 5 August,’; (8) If the bill was read a second time in the first Session, it (4) in line 13, at end, insert ‘Provided that the foregoing shall be read a second time without question put. provisions of this paragraph shall not apply on any day on which (9) If the bill was not set down for consideration at any time has been allocated pursuant to paragraph (2)(b) of Standing time in the first Session, any committal order in Order No. 24 (Emergency debates).’; respect of the bill shall apply to proceedings on the (5) leave out lines 25 to 34 and insert— Bill in the next Session (subject to paragraphs (10) ‘Provided that on days on which time has been allocated and (11)). pursuant to paragraph (2)(b) of Standing Order No. (10) If the bill was reported from a public bill committee 24 (Emergency debates) or the Chairman of Ways under paragraph (3), it shall stand committed to a and Means has set down opposed private business public bill committee in respect of those clauses and under paragraph (5) of Standing Order No. 20 (Time schedules which were committed to a public bill for taking private business), proceedings under this committee in the first Session and not ordered to sub-paragraph shall not be entered upon until the stand part of the bill in that Session. business in question has been disposed of and may (11) If the bill was reported from a committee of the then be proceeded with for three hours, whole House under paragraph (3), it shall stand notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order committed to a committee of the whole House in No. 9 (Sittings of the House).’; respect of those clauses and schedules which were (6) in line 38, leave out ‘hour prescribed under paragraph (5)’ 833 Business of the House14 DECEMBER 2011 Business of the House 834 and insert ‘day and hour prescribed under paragraph (6)’; Order No. 54 (Consideration of estimates) have been (7) in line 40, leave out paragraph (5) and add— disposed of, the Speaker shall (after putting any questions required to be put under paragraph (6) of ‘(5) Any estimates on which questions have been deferred Standing Order No. 54)’; to another day in accordance with the provisions of paragraphs (4) and (6) of this order, together with (c) in line 9, leave out ‘6 February’ and insert ‘18 March’; any questions so deferred, and all other estimates (d) in line 14, at end, insert— appointed for consideration on any previous day or ‘(c) votes relating to numbers for defence services; half day allotted under this order shall be set down (d) excess votes, provided that the Committee of Public for consideration on the day to which the questions Accounts has reported that it sees no objection to have been deferred. the amounts and modifications to limits on (6) On the day to which the provisions of paragraph (2) or appropriations in aid necessary being authorised (4) of Standing Order No. 55 (Questions on voting of by excess vote.’; estimates, &c.) apply which falls after or on any day (e) in line 15, leave out paragraph (3); and or half-day allotted under this order, the Speaker (f) in line 33, leave out ‘paragraphs (2), (3) or (4)’ and shall, at the time prescribed in paragraph (1) of that insert ‘paragraph (2) or (4)’. order, put, successively, any questions deferred under paragraph (4) of this order on any previous day or (2) be amended with effect from the start of next Session as half day allotted under this order, any questions follows— deferred under paragraph (4) of this order on the day (a) in line 1, leave out ‘paragraphs (2), (3) or (4)’ and insert and any questions necessary to dispose of ‘paragraph (2) or (4)’; proceedings on all other estimates appointed for (b) in line 2, leave out ‘the Speaker shall at the moment of consideration on any day or half day allotted under interruption’ and insert ‘, at the moment of this order.’; interruption or as soon thereafter as proceedings (8) Standing Order No. 15 (Exempted business) shall be under the proviso to paragraph (3)(b) of Standing amended, in line 41, by leaving out ‘(5)’ and inserting ‘(6)’; and Order No. 54 (Consideration of estimates) have been (9) Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall be disposed of, the Speaker shall (after putting any amended, in line 23, by leaving out ‘(5)’ and inserting ‘(6)’.— questions required to be put under paragraph (6) of (Mr Heath.) Standing Order No. 54)’; (c) in line 6, leave out the words ‘and limits on appropriations in aid,’; QUESTIONS ON VOTING OF ESTIMATES, &C. (d) in line 9, leave out ‘6 February’ and insert ‘18 March’; Ordered, (e) in line 14, at end, insert— That Standing Order No. 55 (Questions on voting of ‘(c) votes relating to numbers for defence services; estimates, &c.) shall— (d) excess votes, provided that the Committee of Public (1) apply for the remainder of this Session with the following Accounts has reported that it sees no objection to amendments— the amounts necessary being authorised by excess vote.’; (a) in line 1, leave out ‘paragraphs (2), (3) or (4)’ and insert ‘paragraph (2) or (4)’; (f) in line 15, leave out paragraph (3); (b) in line 2, leave out ‘the Speaker shall at the moment of (g) in line 29, leave out ‘, and limits on appropriations in interruption’ and insert ‘, at the moment of aid,’; and interruption or as soon thereafter as proceedings (h) in line 33, leave out ‘paragraphs (2), (3) or (4)’ and under the proviso to paragraph (3)(b) of Standing insert ‘paragraph (2) or (4)’.--(Mr Heath.) 835 14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 836

plan drawn up by my right hon. Friend the Member for Opposition Day Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), welfare up by £29 billion, and debt up an extraordinary £158 billion higher [UN-ALLOTTED HALF DAY] than forecast, which is £6,500 more for every house in this country. Borrowing, welfare bills and national debt Unemployment are all higher, but growth is nowhere to be seen.

2.36 pm David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): The right hon. Gentleman appears to be criticising the Government Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab): I for borrowing more money. How much more money beg to move, would he have borrowed, had he been in government? That this House believes that the Government’s policies of cutting spending and raising taxes too far and too fast have Mr Byrne: If the hon. Gentleman had been listening resulted in the UK economy flat-lining for 12 months, well before carefully, he would have heard me answer that question. the recent eurozone crisis; notes that unemployment has reached a 17-year high and over-50s unemployment has risen sharply; The plan that my right hon. Friend the Member for further notes that slower growth and higher unemployment makes Edinburgh South West and I set out entailed borrowing it harder to get the deficit down and that the Office for Budget that was £37 billion lower than that outlined by the Responsibility forecasts a further rise in unemployment to 8.7 per Chancellor in his autumn statement a couple of weeks cent., a rise in the benefits bill of £29 billion, and an increase in ago. That is of grave concern to the number of people projected borrowing of £158 billion; agrees with the IMF’s warning who are now out of work, especially young people in that ‘consolidating too quickly will hurt the recovery and worsen the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, where long-term job prospects’ and that the Government should ‘have a heightened readiness to respond, particularly if it looks like the economy is youth unemployment has gone up by 128% this year, headed for a prolonged period of weak growth and high which must surely concern him. unemployment’; and, in light of the Office for Budget Responsibility forecasts published on 29 November 2011, calls on the Government The Minister of State, Department for Work and to reconsider its refusal to adopt the Opposition’s five point plan Pensions (Chris Grayling): Will the right hon. Gentleman for jobs which includes creating 100,000 jobs for young people give way? and building 25,000 affordable homes using funds raised from a tax on bank bonuses, bringing forward long-term investment projects, temporarily reversing the January 2011 VAT rise, a Mr Byrne: I will in a moment. one-year cut in VAT to 5 per cent. on home improvements, and Amid these difficulties, people in this country expect a one-year national insurance tax break for every small firm the Minister for work to do something about it, and I which takes on extra workers. think that I speak for many Members of the House It is a shame that the Secretary of State for Work and when I say that most right-thinking people in this Pensions has chosen not to be present for the third country believe that the Government should be doing Opposition day debate on unemployment and living more to get people back to work. standards. We rely, I hope, on the Minister for unemployment to relay back the nature of today’s debate During Work and Pensions questions a month ago I and discussion. pressed the Secretary of State to tell us what exactly he is doing to get Britain back to work. A vast constellation The House meets to debate the motion after more of initiatives was set out, including work clubs, work grim news on jobs this morning. Grim news on jobs this experience, apprenticeship offers, sector-based work month has followed grim news on the Budget last academies, the innovation fund, the European social month. Once again we have seen this morning how the fund, the skills offer, the access to apprenticeships Chancellor’s decision to clobber the recovery is clobbering programme, Work Together, the Work programme, Work families all over our country. Once again we have heard Choice and mandatory work activity. Listening to that of families losing their jobs because of this Government’s list, I became slightly puzzled. With such sweat being decision to cut too far and too fast, and once again we worked up at the Department for unemployment, surely see the consequences of this Government’s decision to we could expect the country’s unemployed to be positively stand easy while millions of people in our country are flowing back into jobs. Members can imagine my surprise now standing idle. when I saw the Office for Budget Responsibility’s forecast Not even the Minister for unemployment could spin that, amid that blizzard of initiatives, unemployment is his way through the statistics published this morning— forecast to go up. How can that be? unemployment up by 128,000, employment down, vacancies We asked the Secretary of State to tell us just how down and the public sector now losing jobs 13 times many jobs have been created by this glorious expenditure faster than the private sector is creating them. We do of energy at his Department. This is what we were told not have to look very far for the root cause of this in a written answer in Hansard. On Work Choice, no unalloyed misery for families 11 days before Christmas. statistics will be available until spring 2012. On mandatory The Chancellor laid it out for us just a fortnight ago. work activity, no statistics will be available until February Last year he was boasting about delivering cuts that 2012. On work clubs, were £40 billion greater than the cuts planned by Labour. Last year he was boasting about how Britain had suddenly “the data requested are… not available.” become a safe haven. Last year he was so pleased with On work experience, a link was provided to a website himself that he said this country was out of the danger that says nothing about jobs actually created. On zone. How hollow those words ring today. apprenticeship offers, we were told: The autumn statement laid bare the catastrophic “Information on the number of people placed in work through failure of the Chancellor’s policy—growth flat-lining apprenticeship offers… is not available.” for a year, borrowing up £37 billion higher than the On sector-based work academies, we were told that 837 Unemployment14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 838

“there is no national requirement for districts to record and No doubt he has repented for that sin and is seeking report job outcomes achieved.” redemption, and I understand that he apologised and is On the skills offer, “information… is not available.” On certain not to repeat the offence. If the Work programme Work Together, was working, surely the Department’s statistics would “the data requested are not available.” show that more and more people were flowing off benefits and into work. That is a simple test we can On the innovation fund, apply, but the problem is that the figures do not show “no young people have been placed into work at this point.”—[Official that. Report, 21 November 2011; Vol. 536, c. 122W.] Here we are, with unemployment going through the Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): roof and the OBR telling us that unemployment is On that basis, how does my right hon. Friend, as a forecast to rise again next year, but despite the multiplicity fellow Birmingham MP, react to the fact that in the past of schemes laid out by the Secretary of State, who year, between November 2011 and November 2011, the cannot be bothered even to come along to the debate, number of young people in Birmingham claiming he cannot tell us how many people are going into work jobseeker’s allowance increased by 19%, which is the as a result of the spending his Department has in place, worst figure for all core cities in the country? with the exception of one programme. The one initiative—it is buried in his answer in Hansard—run by his Department Mr Byrne: That is an extremely serious problem for that he can claim is actually creating jobs is the programme Birmingham, and my hon. Friend is absolutely right to financed by the European Union. He said: draw the House’s attention to it, but there is a more “European Social Fund support has achieved 75,671 job outcomes widespread problem if the rate of people flowing off from July 2008 to October 2011.”—[Official Report, 21 November benefits into work is not rising. Research by the House 2011; Vol. 536, c. 122W.] of Commons Library for my office, which we are publishing No doubt that is why he is urging his right hon. Friend this afternoon, shows that fewer people are flowing the Prime Minister to get the hell out of the EU. from benefits into work than at any point since 1998. That fall coincides with the Government’s decision last Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Are year to cancel the flexible new deal and the future jobs not leadership, boldness and imagination missing from fund. Since January, when the future jobs fund ended, that catalogue? With 1 million young people unemployed, the percentage of people flowing off benefits and into surely we need something that captures the imagination—for work has fallen by a fifth. Between May and August last instance, by using young unemployed graduates to train year, when the new scheme was being worked up, 86,000 other people in the community and in the environment. fewer people came off benefits and into work than the We need imagination now. year before. Surely Government Members would accept that that is simply not good enough. Mr Byrne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and he has been a long-standing champion of the need to get Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): Does young people into work and, crucially, equip them with the right hon. Gentleman not accept that the future the skills to succeed in the workplace, but I am afraid jobs fund was not about providing long-term jobs, but that we have a deficit of that from the Government. It is about short-term work placements of six months in the an embarrassment for the Minister that he is unable to public sector? What is the point of that? If he wants to tell the House how many people his schemes are getting talk about solid outcomes for the future, he should not into work. The Secretary of State appears to have so be talking about the future jobs fund, because within much confidence in the schemes that he cannot be weeks the people involved were out of work again. bothered to turn up this afternoon. However, I want to make a more substantive point about the Minister’s Mr Byrne: Let me say as diplomatically as I can to flagship scheme. the hon. Gentleman that since the future jobs fund closed long-term youth unemployment in his constituency Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): Will the right has gone up by 43%. He must accept that the future jobs hon. Gentleman give way? fund was helping to keep young people in work. We know, as Ministers accept, that keeping young people close to the labour market, close to jobs and close to the Mr Byrne: I will in a moment, but first I want to habits of work is a good thing. make one point about the Work programme. The Work programme is a new scheme that builds on Oliver Heald: We all agree that keeping young people the flexible new deal. We have said that if it works and close to the labour market is important, and the advantage delivers value for money we will keep it in place, but the of what the Government are proposing is that it is in the Minister must accept that worries about the programme private sector, where the jobs will come, where those are growing. [Interruption.] I am delighted that the opportunities are being given. Does the right hon. Secretary of State has been able to join us to hear this Gentleman not accept that in all the years when Labour important point. The Minister for unemployment has was in government the number of people not in education, repeatedly told the House that he cannot produce statistics employment or training stood at a very high level and on how well the Work programme is doing, and I barely moved, despite all the growth? completely understand his caution. I think that he is the only Minister who has been formally warned by the Mr Byrne: Let me repeat that when Labour was chairman of the UK Statistics Authority, who last year elected in 1997, youth unemployment was about 14%. It said that the Minister’s use of figures was came down to about 12% before the recession and then, “likely to damage public trust in official statistics”. yes, of course it went up during the recession, as all 839 Unemployment14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 840

[Mr Byrne] the public-private divide in the economy? A case in point is what they have done to the solar panel industry. unemployment did. But rather than sit there doing We have seen massive job losses in the private sector nothing, as this Government have over the past year because of a loss of private and public sector contracts. and a half, we chose to act. That is why youth It is amazing that the Government cannot seem to get unemployment was coming down before the election hold of this concept. and why, since this Government were elected, it has gone up to record highs and has done so again this Mr Byrne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We morning. That is surely not a record of which the hon. were promised that this was going to be the greenest Gentleman can be proud. Government ever, but a wide group of green and conservation organisations now say that the Government Mrs Main: If the right hon. Gentleman wishes young are comprehensively failing to meet that commitment. people to be near the labour market, does he regret We all know that one of the key growth sectors for the presiding over the lowest number of social housing future has to be low-carbon industries. The Government units ever developed under a prosperous Government? should therefore be doing more to get people into work That means that young people cannot have social housing in these sectors, not least by providing some regulatory at an affordable level and are therefore unable to access certainty about the future. jobs in areas where there are high house values. Let me finish my point about the collapse in the rate of people flowing off benefits and into work. There is a Mr Byrne: We do wish that more houses had been very basic test. The Minister’s plan is not working built over the past year, and that is precisely why we unless it is getting more people off benefits and into have said that a sensible tax on bankers’ bonuses could work, unless the unemployment bill is coming down, create the funds to build 20,000 new homes. Why does and unless it is really making a difference—and right the hon. Lady oppose that policy? now, he is failing on every single count.

John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): Will my Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): Does my right hon. Friend confirm that 65,000 jobs have been right hon. Friend agree that the 227 additional people lost in the construction sector alone, and that that is who have joined the dole queue in Liverpool, Walton because of the slump in building across the board? may be seen by the Conservatives as just collateral damage from their failed economic policy, but for each Mr Byrne: That is absolutely right. The construction of those individuals, although they are a statistic to the sector has taken an absolute hammering since this Government, theirs is a personal tragedy? Does he Government took office, not least because of their agree that they are still the same old Tories who believe foolhardy decision to get rid of infrastructure projects that unemployment is a price worth paying? and building projects such as Building Schools for the Future that would have equipped many of our young Mr Byrne: Many will draw exactly that conclusion, people with the facilities needed to deliver a world-class not least because when they see a Secretary of State education in the years to come. who is unable to come to this House and set out how many jobs his various initiatives are creating, they must Chris Grayling: Will the shadow Minister be extremely conclude that he simply cannot be bothered to find out. careful about the information that he lays before the I want to spell out how two particular groups are House? Last month, in our previous debate on this being pretty badly hit by this Government’s policies. subject, I told him that Department for Work and The human cost of the Government’s failure to get Pensions statisticians had made a comparison between people back to work, to which my hon. Friend the youth unemployment lasting for more than six months Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram) alluded, as of now and two years ago, and that on a like-for-like will be on everybody’s minds this afternoon. When measure there has been virtually no change. He keeps families get together this Christmas, there will be plenty insisting that there has been a substantial increase, but of anxious talk about the year ahead. This House has the civil service statisticians say that that is not correct. debated many times before the dangers of creating a Will he please stop making that assertion to this House? lost generation, and today that news got even worse. Youth unemployment is up by 54,000. As my right hon. Mr Byrne: I know that, like me, hon. Members will Friend the Leader of the Opposition said earlier today, have read last year’s letter to the right hon. Gentleman long-term youth unemployment is up this year by 93%. from Sir Michael Scholar. The letter was very assertive Two hundred and seventy of us now represent constituencies about the way the right hon. Gentleman had used where long-term youth unemployment has risen by over statistics before. I am happy to lay the letter before the 100%. That is simply not good enough. House for those who have not seen it. I am also happy to show the Minister figures produced by the House of Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): Commons Library, which show that since January long- As someone who spent three years unemployed due to term youth unemployment has risen by over 90%. That the activities of the Economic League, I well understand is a badge of shame for this Government, and the the indignity that unemployment brings. One of the Minister should be doing more to get our young people things that kept me sane during that period was the back to work. ability to go along to the jobcentre and speak to people who could help me to get back into work. This Government Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): Does my are now closing the jobcentres. right hon. Friend share my view that the Government seem to be stuck in an ideological Tardis in their view of Mr Byrne: That points to a wider problem. 841 Unemployment14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 842

Chris Grayling: Nonsense! given the Minister’s concern about statistics, when will we find out how many people the youth contract is Mr Byrne: The Minister says that this is nonsense. I getting back into work? Will it be Work programme am afraid that he will be giving the House the illusion providers who operate the schemes? If so, why do so that he is not taking the figures that we saw this morning many of them appear to be completely in the dark seriously enough. He went on the media this morning about the scheme and its introduction? If the contract and said that today’s figures, which show youth proves not to work in short order, will the Government unemployment rising to the highest level this country consider reintroducing Labour’s future jobs fund, which has ever seen, represented a stabilisation in the labour was such a success? market. When youth unemployment is going up, overall unemployment is going up, and women’s unemployment Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): I share my is going up, that is not stabilisation—it is a tragedy for right hon. Friend’s concern about the fact that we still the people those figures represent, and he should be have no details regarding the youth contract. I asked the doing more to get them back into work. Minister last week how much of the programme would be spent in Scotland and he could provide me with no Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Does information whatever. No one in Scotland, including my right hon. Friend agree that it was a massive strategic Work programme providers, private employers and those error for the Government to announce over a year ago in the public sector, has any idea what they have to plan that they were going to get rid of half a million public with or to work with. That is simply hopeless when so sector jobs? Public servants spent less because they many people are out of work. thought they were going to lose their jobs. Together with two years of a 1% pay freeze, which will reduce real Mr Byrne: That was indeed a very disappointing incomes by 17%, and the attempt to dress up a 3% answer to my hon. Friend, particularly considering change in income tax as a pension contribution, that today’s rise in unemployment in Scotland. has massively deflated the amount of consumption in I want to highlight one other group of workers who the economy and given rise to flat-lining growth. have been particularly badly hit. The over-50s are now losing jobs at a faster pace. The number of people in Mr Byrne: My hon. Friend makes an extremely good that group in Britain who have been unemployed for point. The recovery has been clobbered, and as a result more than a year has risen by about 25% this year. Such the welfare bill is now going through the roof. That is a workers often fear that they will not get back into work bill that the rest of us are going to have to pay. again and that they will be thrown on to some kind of We now have, since we last met, a youth contract on silver scrap heap. The picture of the country that emerged the table. That is a recognition that it was a mistake to this morning is terrible: long-term unemployment among get rid of the future jobs fund and to leave instead, for the over-50s is up by 21% and in seven regions—Wales, two years, no active programme for getting young people the north-east, the east midlands, London, the north-west, back into work. That was a grave error. The shame is the south-west and the west midlands—it is even higher. that this contract was paid for by a botched deal between More than 50 Members of this House now represent the Deputy Prime Minister and the Chancellor; I do not constituencies where the rise in long-term unemployment think that the Secretary of State was even in the room. among the over-50s is more than 50%. That is surely He should remember that if you are not in the room, it unacceptable and it surely demands a response from the is quite hard to influence the decision. What emerged Government. from the quartet, as I think it is quaintly called, was a shabby settlement that took money off hard-pressed Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Will my parents with children to pay for this Government’s right hon. Friend bear it in mind that that situation is failure to get young people back to work. In the past, very much like what happened in the 1980s? People in the Secretary of State has talked a lot about the marriage their late 40s, let alone those in their 50s, were made penalty, and there are sympathisers with his argument redundant when there were two major recessions. Many on both sides of the House. However, he too must now of them were never to work again. That is the humiliation recognise that he is presiding over the biggest parents’ that was heaped on our fellow citizens. Although the penalty that we have ever seen introduced into the Government and Tory Members do not seem to be benefits system, with twice the amount of money being much concerned—only five Tory MPs are present, leaving taken off children and families than will be taken off aside the Parliamentary Private Secretary—the tragedy the bankers over the course of this Parliament. Surely is that there is now a repeat of what occurred at that Government Members cannot be proud of that. time. I want to ask a couple of questions about the youth contract to which I hope the Minister will be able to Mr Byrne: My hon. Friend is right to remind us of respond. First, will he admit that 53,000 work subsidies what happened in the 1980s. Of course, that was the this coming year is far too few for the task that we have decade when the number of those left to languish on in hand? That equates to only one opportunity for every incapacity benefit went through the roof. 20 young people now unemployed. Secondly, in 2009—this Our motion calls on the Government to change course. is perhaps of interest to the hon. Member for North We call on the Government to learn from today’s figures, East Hertfordshire (Oliver Heald)—Labour introduced to remember our young people, and to listen to the a form of work subsidy, but the take-up was not great worries of the over-50s. We want them to change course and the Conservative party attacked it remorselessly. and give us a real plan for getting people back to work What has accounted for the sudden change of heart and for creating growth. We think that there is another over work subsidies? Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly way and that the Government need to listen, and fast. 843 Unemployment14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 844

[Mr Byrne] Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): The report issued by the Office for Budget Responsibility at the This is perhaps the last debate that I will lead for the time of the autumn statement made it clear that the Opposition this year. I want to conclude by looking boom was greater and the recession sharper and deeper ahead to an important anniversary next year—the 70th than had previously been thought. It also stated that the anniversary of the Beveridge report. I think that it is recovery in 2009 was stronger than had previously been appropriate to mark the achievement of that very different thought, and that it was brought to an abrupt halt in the kind of alliance; an alliance that genuinely acted in the second half of 2010. Perhaps the Minister would like to national interest. The report was commissioned by a reflect on what happened in 2010 to change things. Labour Minister, written by a Liberal and welcomed by a nation. The Beveridge report provided the foundation Chris Grayling: What the hon. Lady has missed is for the welfare state created by the Attlee Administration. that the OBR said at the time of the autumn statement It was a welfare state that freed people from fear and it that the structural deficit—not the cyclical deficit—that was created on the proceeds of full employment. I we inherited from the previous Government was much believe that the goal of full employment should once worse than it had previously believed. That means that again be our aim. I hope that next year we can celebrate the economic legacy that we inherited was much worse the achievement of that progressive alliance by rededicating than we had previously believed. It is therefore a much ourselves to the idea that politics can make a difference, bigger task to overcome that and to get the economy that politics can author the policies that get this country growing again, to get jobs being created again and to back to work once again, and that politics once again get Britain moving. can offer this country freedom from fear. I commend the motion to the House. Mr Sheerman: I know that the Minister cares about this issue and that we are going to have point scoring. 3.4 pm However, a million young people and their many millions The Minister of State, Department for Work and of parents and friends are waiting for something to Pensions (Chris Grayling): I rise to take part in episode happen. Point scoring will not help them. The shadow two of the debate that we began a month ago. Secretary of State finished by remembering the 70th Let me start by saying, once again, that this Government anniversary of the Beveridge report. He was offering an regard unemployment among people of all ages as bad, olive branch. In that spirit, why can the Government although youth unemployment is a particular concern. not say, “Let’s all get around a table and find something All unemployment is bad and it will remain a priority together that helps the young unemployed people in this for this Government to deal with the issue, to help those country.”? who are unemployed back into work, and to create an environment in which businesses are able to grow, develop Chris Grayling: The hon. Gentleman will learn, if he and create jobs. We will do everything that we can to listens to my speech, that we are already doing things. tackle this genuine blight, which causes concern for We have delivered a package of support that will make a Members on both sides of this House. It is a problem significant difference to the lives of the unemployed. that we must tackle. We keep hearing about a mythical two-year gap in I must also say, however, that I have seldom in this provision. I remind the Opposition that the programmes House heard such a load of complete nonsense as I that we inherited from them finished only three months have just heard from the shadow Secretary of State. He ago. Today’s unemployment figures cover part of the used statistics that bear no relation to the truth and he period when the previous Government’s programmes made an argument based on achievements of the previous were continuing. Government that bear no relation to reality. We need to Let me take up the points that the right hon. Member remember that it was the Labour Government who for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) made about brought us youth unemployment of nearly 1 million, this morning’s unemployment figures. He questioned unemployment of 2.5 million, a deep recession, the why I had said this morning that the labour market had biggest peacetime financial deficit in our history, and a showed some signs of stabilisation. Let me explain why. Chief Secretary to the Treasury who was best known It is because over the past month, employment has risen not for his taste in cappuccino or the memos that he by 38,000 and unemployment has risen by 16,000, a sent to his staff, but for the note that he left behind, number that is considerably exceeded by the change in saying that “there’s no money left”. activity levels. The youth unemployment figure, excluding Mr Byrne: The whole House is enjoying the Minister’s full-time students, has remained static, and the jobseeker’s frivolity with such a serious issue. Will he just remind us allowance claimant count has risen by 3,000, whereas how much extra the Chancellor proposes to borrow the total number of people who have moved off incapacity over and above the plans that he set out before the benefit and income support as a result of our welfare House last year? Is it a figure not unadjacent to reforms is 10,000. Those are one month’s figures and £158 billion more than he forecast? certainly do not reflect a long-term change, but they are at least a sign of some stabilisation in the labour market. Chris Grayling: Had we followed the economic strategy I think he would and should welcome that. of the right hon. Gentleman when he was at the Treasury and of his former boss, the former Prime Minister, not Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): I want to only would we be in the same kind of financial predicament return to the Minister’s point about the previous today that some of our European partners are in, but programmes having only just come to a conclusion. He we would have unemployment that is much higher surely accepts that they were running down. If someone today than it is. started on a future jobs fund programme at the very end 845 Unemployment14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 846 of its life, that individual would inevitably be in work Chris Grayling: My hon. Friend makes an important for a further six months. However, that does not mean point. From listening to the Opposition, one would that there was not a substantial gap between the believe that the problem had simply emerged in the past announcement of the closure of some programmes and few months. One would not believe that unemployment the Government finally getting around to opening up a among young people was almost 1 million when Labour new programme, the youth contract, which we understand left office. Indeed, the total number of young people will not actually come into effect until next April. not in education or employment passed 1 million during the last recession, but we do not hear about that from Chris Grayling: That is simply not correct. We managed Labour. a transition strategy that kept existing programmes going until the first part of this autumn, precisely to Mr Byrne: The Minister can try to evade the truth as ensure that there was not a gap in provision between much as he likes, but he cannot duck the basic fact that what we inherited and what we were putting in place. youth unemployment was about 14% when Labour took office. Before the recession it came down to 12%. Oliver Heald: Does my right hon. Friend share my It did go up during the recession, but it was coming consternation that Opposition Front Benchers are saying down before the election. Since the election, it has gone that they would reintroduce the future jobs fund, given through the roof to a record high. He simply cannot that it was an entirely public sector operation providing duck that truth. Why does he not get on and do something work placements but no permanent jobs for the future? about it? Surely it is much better to go with the private sector option, as the Government are talking about. That is a Chris Grayling: I will explain what we are planning to way of providing jobs for the future. do, but we should remember that youth unemployment was at almost 950,000 when Labour left office, which was higher than when it took office. We are not going Chris Grayling: I absolutely agree, and that is central take lessons from Labour and its record on youth to what we are trying to achieve. The measures that we unemployment. are putting in place, which I will set out for the House in a moment, are designed to ensure that we help young I wish to set out the approach that we have put in people, indeed people of all ages, to move into roles in place to try to support the unemployed. the private sector, where there is a long-term, sustained Ian Austin: Will the Minister give way? opportunity for them to build careers. Chris Grayling: No, I am going to make some progress Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): Is it or is it not the now. case that Jaguar-Land Rover in the west midlands provided The first priority has to be to help get business placements for young people through the future jobs moving and growing again. That involves having a fund? stable financial environment in which businesses are confident that this country is not going to find itself in Chris Grayling: The hon. Gentleman will know that the economic predicament that some other nations are in order for a private sector organisation to participate facing. We therefore remain determined to address the in the future jobs fund, it had to set up a special purpose deficit challenge, bring our public finances under control vehicle to work around European Union state aid rules. and send a message to the world that Britain understands The result was that virtually all placements under the the challenges that we face and is trying to do something future jobs fund were in the public and community about them. That is why we saw such a good response in sector. In putting in place additional programmes, providing the bond markets this morning to this country’s attempts apprenticeships and providing a subsidy through the to sell its bonds, and why other countries are facing youth contract, we are focusing support on roles in the difficulties. I believe that if we had not taken those private sector. measures, businesses would not be investing in this country or considering employing people here. I believe Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): I that unemployment would be higher than it is today. will focus not on the over-50s, because I would have We also have to take measures that, within the confines to declare an interest, but on 18 to 24-year-olds. In of the financial constraints upon us, do everything Birmingham, 15,600 of them are claiming jobseeker’s possible to encourage and support business. That is why allowance. If the Minister is so focused on private my right hon. Friend the Chancellor set out in his sector job creation, will he give me one example of how autumn statement two weeks ago a variety of measures he is encouraging the private sector in Birmingham to designed to do just that. They include investment in get jobs for that lost generation, rather than providing a infrastructure; an expansion of the regional growth programme of aid? fund; increased capital allowances in enterprise zones; and measures to underpin bank lending to small businesses, Chris Grayling: I will set out in a moment how our so that they can access the finance that they need to work experience scheme, for example, is succeeding in grow. Those are essential parts of ensuring that in helping young people to move into work in the private exceptionally difficult times, businesses at least have the sector. best foundations that we can possibly give them to enable them to grow. Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): Youthunemployment started rising in 2004 and peaked at nearly 1 million in Mr Byrne: We all appreciate that summary of the 2009. Will my right hon. Friend set out the facts about autumn statement, but will the Minister remind the that in an honest and straightforward manner? The House to what level unemployment is projected to rise problems did not start in 2010. next year? 847 Unemployment14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 848

Chris Grayling: The right hon. Gentleman and other Chris Grayling: We know that just over 50% of those Members can read the OBR forecasts, which state that people were off benefits within a total of 12 weeks from at the end of a difficult economic period unemployment day one of their placement. It is an eight-week placement, will start to fall again. I remind him that we are dealing so the answer is, in effect, within a month of the end of with international circumstances that the Governor of the work experience period. That is the first set of the Bank of England described as being among the figures. The right hon. Gentleman said, “No more most difficult in modern times, if not the most difficult. figures till February”, and he is right. He cannot berate Of course, alongside the measures that we need to me for misuse of national statistics—he and I can argue take to support and encourage business growth, we about that offline sometime—and at the same time need high-quality support for the unemployed to ensure demand that I misuse them to give him more evidence that we can get them back into work as quickly as now. We will publish the figures for the programme at possible. the appropriate moment, but I am confident that they will continue to show the real difference that it is making to young people. Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): The Minister has been on his feet for what feels quite a long time, and Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): Does the he has attacked the public sector and talked about how Minister agree that the best thing is the Government’s he will support the private sector but not once mentioned bringing everything together to ensure not just that the third sector. That shows the Government’s real private sector businesses grow to employ people, but attitude to that sector’s role in supporting people into that we put good, solid training, work experience and employment, which was what made the future jobs fund apprenticeships in place so that people can not only get work. into work but have sustainable long-term employment, unlike through some of the fad projects of the past?

Chris Grayling: If the hon. Lady will allow me, I will Chris Grayling: I agree. The second part of the support finish explaining what we are doing. Last night, we that we are providing to young people—and, indeed, to published figures showing that 20% of referrals taking older workers, for whom apprenticeships are also place through the Work programme are being handled available—is a substantial increase in the number of by the voluntary sector, so it is playing an extremely apprenticeships. More than 100,000 new apprenticeships important part in our work. It is also helping us to have been announced since the general election—the deliver a number of other programmes, and it is an total across the Parliament will take apprenticeship integral part of supporting both the short and long-term provision far beyond where it has been previously. We unemployed. believe that an apprenticeship that combines training There are a number of elements to the package that and a real job for many young people is a better vehicle we have put in place. The first is support for the shorter-term for delivering a long-term career option for them than unemployed, with a particular focus on the young, simply putting them into a temporary six-month work through our work experience programme and sector-based experience placement at significant cost to the taxpayer, work academies. The right hon. Member for Birmingham, as we experienced with the future jobs fund. I accept Hodge Hill, would know, had he read the figures that that we do not agree on that: Labour Members believe we published, that the first statistics, for the period up that their approach was better. However, we believe that until August, showed that more than 50% of the young sustained employment in the private sector with an people going through our work experience programme apprenticeship for a substantial proportion of young moved off benefits quickly afterwards. Indeed, we know people is the best option. I am delighted that my hon. that many of those young people are staying in employment Friend the Minister for Further Education, Skills and with the employers who gave them their work experience Lifelong Learning, who is responsible for that, has put place. The scheme is a great success, and we are doubling in so much effort and won so many extra resources for its size as part of the youth contract. apprenticeships. I should like to put it on record that I am very grateful to all the employers up and down the country, Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): I heard large and small, that are offering young people work what the Minister said about the programmes that he experience and helping to break the vicious circle whereby has put in place, but how can he claim that they are people cannot get a job unless they have experience, but successful when there has been an increase in long-term they cannot get experience unless they have a job. The youth unemployment of 88.6% and in long-term scheme is cost-effective, costing one twentieth of what unemployment for people over 50 of 59% in my was spent on the future jobs fund for a broadly similar constituency in the past six months? outcome. It is a great initiative, and I pay tribute to all the Jobcentre Plus staff who are working on it. Chris Grayling: I make the same point to the hon. Lady that I made to the shadow Minister: I wish they would stop producing figures that are not statistically Mr Byrne: I am grateful to the Minister, who is valid. The previous Government had something called characteristically generous in giving way. I assume that the training allowance. Somebody who had been out of he refers to the statistics that were published on the work for 12 months and entered the new deal programmes Department’s website about work experience, which went for a short time on to a training allowance. That showed that between January and August 2011, 16,360 meant that their JSA claim was moved back to day one. claimants started a “get Britain working”work experience As a result, the previous Government claimed to have placement. That is in the written answer that he gave abolished youth unemployment. We have stopped doing me. Of those 16,000, how many have got jobs? that—we do not hide the unemployed. We accept the 849 Unemployment14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 850 scale of the problem and try to tackle it properly. The real difference to the likelihood of an employer taking civil service statisticians in the Department for Work on a young person. I hope and believe that will make a and Pensions carried out a like-for-like comparison, genuine difference. which shows that there is virtually no difference in youth unemployment for more than six months between Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): One of they key today and two years ago. Opposition figures are therefore factors throughout the United Kingdom that perhaps simply not accurate. the Minister has not mentioned yet is small and medium The third element of the support is through the Work businesses. In Northern Ireland, 90% of those in programme, which began at the start of July. It has been employment are employed through small and medium going for five months and is the most ambitious welfare- businesses. What help does the Minister intend to give to-work programme that the country has seen. The first small and medium businesses to create jobs and thereby signs from providers are encouraging. We will not have address youth unemployment? official statistics till next year, but there are many examples of people who have been out of work for a long time Chris Grayling: I agree that small and medium-sized getting into work. It is a payment-by-results scheme, so enterprises are crucial. I hope that the subsidy that is providers have every incentive to use the right approach paid to employers through the youth contract will be to working with people in a personalised way to deliver attractive to large and small employers. We are clear the right support to them individually and to match that the role that small businesses play is important. them to the right job; otherwise they will not stay there. Opposition Members raised issues about unemployment Given that the full payment is not made until a conventional among the older generation and I believe that our new jobseeker has been in work for 18 months, there is a real enterprise allowance, which is proving successful in the incentive to ensure that it is about not just placing areas where it has been operating so far and is now someone in a short-term job but building a long-term available throughout the country, will provide a real career for them. route for people who want to build their own SME in future. Mr Deputy Speaker, do not listen to what you hear Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): from the Opposition about the Government doing nothing The Minister wants accurate figures, so let me tell him about unemployment. We have a comprehensive range that 130 people in my constituency in highly skilled of support, which I believe can make a real difference to engineering jobs are losing their jobs today because of the unemployed. We face huge economic challenges and cuts in public sector spending. It is a private sector some of the most difficult economic circumstances that business. Does the Minister not understand that cuts in any Government have faced. However, unemployment the public sector impact on the private sector? Here in is and will remain a priority for the Government. We my hand is the proof to show that. will do everything that we can to tackle it.

Chris Grayling: I regret every single redundancy in Several hon. Members rose— any sector in any part of this country. It is a terrible blow for the people concerned. I do not know about the Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I case, but if the hon. Gentleman wants to talk to me remind hon. Members that I am imposing a six-minute afterwards, I will ensure that Jobcentre Plus support limit due to the number who wish to speak. from a rapid response team is available to his constituents. I regret any such situation. However, we are having to 3.27 pm get to grips with the challenges of the public sector because of the mess we were left. If we did not do that, Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): It is a pleasure to unemployment would be higher, not lower. I stress that follow the Minister. The statistics I will use are from the we will do everything we can to help the hon. Gentleman’s Office for National Statistics, but my experience is as a constituents and those elsewhere who are in a similar manager of a centre for unemployed people before I position. Any unemployment is too high, and we will do came into the House. I saw at first hand the failure of all we can to help tackle it. economic policy. That is what unemployment is: a failure Let me briefly consider the youth contract because of an economic system. It is not “a price worth paying” questions have been asked about it. It was announced as a previous Chancellor of the Exchequer said. shortly after our debate a month ago and I think that it In the 1990s, I ran a centre that helped young people will enhance the programmes that we are already delivering. to get back to work. We gave them life experiences and It builds on the programmes that are already in place choices. Whether in the public sector, the private sector and will involve doubling the work experience programme or the voluntary sector, those experiences were valuable so that we should be able to guarantee every single tools and gave skills to young people. It is a shame that young person who has been out of work for three Government Members rubbish schemes involving the months a work experience place. Through the Work voluntary and public sectors, because people need help programme, it provides a subsidy to employers to take to get those necessary skills; they do not need Government on a young person who has been unemployed for a Members to attack the public sector. longer time. The CBI proposed it to us, but it is more generous than the programme that the CBI requested. Oliver Heald: Does the hon. Gentleman not accept The shadow Minister made the point about the previous that it is something of a deception to put a young Government’s scheme in 2009, but the difference is that person in a job for six months with the idea that it will we are delivering something to a template that leading lead to something at a time when the public sector is business groups requested. They say that it will make a being cut? Surely it is better to give that young person a 851 Unemployment14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 852

[Oliver Heald] I remember that there was no plan to help in the 1980s. In 1992, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said private sector job opportunity or work experience that that unemployment was “a price worth paying”—it was has some prospect of leading somewhere. an economic tool. The Minister shakes his head, but those were the Chancellor’s words, and he cannot contradict Albert Owen: I will tell the hon. Gentleman what a that because they are on the record. The Chancellor deception is: it is the Government saying that they will said that there were shoots of growth, but people were introduce a scheme next April when youth unemployment losing their jobs and livelihoods, and communities were is going through the roof this month and last month. being destroyed. The buzzwords of the ’80s and ’90s were “downsizing” Oliver Heald: It isn’t! and “redundancy”. We needed a scheme, and when the Labour Government came to power in 1997, we introduced Albert Owen: Of course it is! The hon. Gentleman the new deal for the unemployed. A levy from the excess really needs to look at the ONS statistics. In every profits of utility companies was used and targeted to corner of the UK, youth unemployment is going up. help young people. Between 1999 and 2004, it was Young people are facing unemployment because of the hugely successful. I think it should have continued, but Government’s record. after 2004 the scheme was targeted at other sections of society that needed help. With hindsight, perhaps we John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): Why is it a deception if should have continued to concentrate on young people. the Government set out a well thought through policy Youthunemployment has gone up in the past 12 months, that they are ready to deliver in three or four months’ whatever statistics we use. Young people are losing their time? That is not a deception but a well organised jobs or are not able to enter the employment market. policy. It is ludicrous to trade such cheap remarks about My daughter’s peers, who are in their 20s, have taken people’s jobs and futures. extra university courses because they cannot get jobs. They are coming out highly qualified and cannot get Albert Owen: I shall tell the hon. Gentleman my jobs. That is the reality of the situation today. It is background in a moment—I certainly know what incumbent on us all, whichever party we represent, to unemployment is like and have worked with unemployed get the number down. Although bandying statistics people—but month on month, people are losing their does not help, we must, none the less, use the records jobs. Saying that there is hope in future of a scheme—he of different Governments to paint a picture. The record says it is well thought out, but nobody has seen it of this Government is to do away with schemes that implemented—is a disgrace when the Government are were successful and to say, “We’ll replace them with doing away with schemes that were working and helping something in the future.”The reality is that unemployment people. I met people who went on those schemes. They is going up. had the opportunity in a major global recession to gain work experience and skills. That is what the Government Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con) rose— should be doing; they should not be talking about some generous scheme of the future that we do not know Albert Owen: I am afraid that I do not have much about. time; I have already taken two interventions. The Government’s record is one of increasing In the 1980s and 1990s, there was a period of stagnation unemployment, which compares with the Government in my constituency. The gross value added, or the gross of the 1980s and 1990s. The centre for the unemployed domestic product, was among the worst in the United where I worked was established in the 1930s, and was Kingdom. The historical scar is there and people are re-established in the 1980s because of mass unemployment finding it difficult. Between 1997 and 2007, the number and mass depopulation. People left my area to look for of jobs increased by some 7,000 and many skills were jobs in the 1980s and ’90s as they did in the 1930s. The brought back to the area through various schemes. county of Anglesey, which I represent, was the only There was a partnership between Government, the public county in Wales that had a declining population in two sector, the private sector and the voluntary sector, all consecutive censuses, because people went looking for working together to help people. That is the way forward. work. Yes, they got on their bikes, but it harmed our I accept that unemployment went up in 2007, but it community. Unemployment is not a statistic to bandy started to come down in 2010, which is important. around in the Chamber; it involves real lives and real When this Government took office, growth was increasing people. It affects individuals, families and communities. and unemployment was coming down. The trend has I have seen communities scarred by mass unemployment, now been reversed and we are back to what it was like in which is why I am passionate about standing up here the 1980s, and once again we are facing mass today to say that this Government’s policies are not unemployment. Some 2.64 million people are unemployed, working. We need to work together to find policies that which is a disgrace for any Government. This Government work. When the Government scrap policies that have should apologise for the fact that their policies are not been successful in my community, I will stand up and working. say so—that is the reality of the situation not only in my The Welsh Assembly Government are introducing constituency but in many parts of the country. additional projects to help the unemployed. Austerity In 1992, unemployment in my constituency stood at alone will not create jobs; it is getting people skilled up 3,912—nearly 4,000. By October 2002 it was down to and giving them the necessary experience, growing 1,516, and by October 2007 it was down to 1,093, the economy, and bringing down unemployment that because schemes that targeted the hardcore unemployed will put increase the GDP and the GVA of every part of to help them back to work were introduced. the United Kingdom. Wales has been hammered by 853 Unemployment14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 854 unemployment. We need to move forward. Today is a forgot to tell us that when Labour got in in 1997, the bad day for unemployment and a bad day for this national debt was some £350 billion. By 2007, before Government’s record. the economic crash, the national debt had risen to £650 billion. Yes, the Labour Government had been paying off the national debt for two years but when the 3.36 pm election started to loom, all of a sudden off went the David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): The right spending taps and they were spending at a rate of hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) £30 billion or so on average more than they were and many of his colleagues have basically said that the earning. That meant that by 2007 they already had a Government should change course. I listened to them problem, yet they let the spending rip and we ended up with great interest but did not hear any of them say with a national debt of £1 trillion and a deficit of what their course should be. I heard plenty of criticisms £160 billion. Their response was to say up until October of the Government, but there has been no mention by that we should borrow even more money—now, they the right hon. Gentleman of a coherent economic policy. suggest we borrow even less. What the hon. Ladies and Gentlemen on the Opposition Several hon. Members rose— Benches do not understand is that it is very easy to create a little employment in the short-term by borrowing David T. C. Davies: I intend to give way once only. money that one does not actually have, but the problem is that that will always lead to greater unemployment in Mr Byrne: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the longer term because at some point—they do not giving way. We have set out a clear five-point plan for realise this—that money must be paid back. In the getting people back into work. The starting point is a meantime, the interest on it, which is about £30 billion a sensible and fair tax on bankers’ bonuses. Does he think year at the moment, has to be paid. The only way that that his constituents, like mine, would support that? money can be paid back is by raising taxes, which destroys jobs, or cutting public spending. That is a basic David T. C. Davies: I have heard about this tax on economic fact that Labour Governments throughout bankers’ bonuses, which has already been spent in myriad history have failed to comprehend. different ways. In any case, the Government have already Of course, there are more things that this Government introduced taxes on banks, which are bringing in far can do. We have taken the brave decision as a coalition more money. I point out to the right hon. Gentleman—I to get rid of the deficit as quickly as we can. It might am sure he knows this, given what his last job was—that take until 2017—[Interruption.] Yes, I accept it is not the financial services industry in this country is contributing going to be an easy task, given what we have inherited. about 10% of all the money that we have, or somewhere It will take a number of years, but we will stay the in the region of £50 billion. At this moment in time, we course and do it, and we will do more, besides. cannot do anything too much that will damage that. We must consider immigration. It cannot possibly be Let me explain to the House what I think the Opposition right that 250,000 people are coming into this country party’s economic policy was. Up until October and the at a time of recession if we have to find them all jobs, Chancellor’s statement, the economic policy of Labour too. My wife is one of them and my sister-in-law, who is Members was to borrow even more money than we are from Asia, is another. I am not in any way against those being forced to borrow at the moment. Since October, who come here; I welcome the fact that people have everything has changed and suddenly their policy is to come here and are making a contribution, but we must borrow less money. Amazingly enough, they are not consider whether that is sustainable in the long term. only going to borrow less money, but spend more money. The Opposition are going to borrow less money We must also consider the attitude of some British but somehow there will be no cuts in Government people—that has to be said. Neither of my sister-in-laws expenditure and no freezes on pensions and everyone had problems coming over here from Asia and eastern will have a job. It is a totally incoherent economic Europe and getting jobs, but there is unfortunately a policy, but completely consistent with what we have small minority of younger British people who would come to expect from Labour. prefer to stay on the dole than go out and get a job. It is a harsh fact but it needs saying and it is something that Albert Owen: The hon. Gentleman says that we did this Government will actively tackle. not outline our plans. If he reads the motion, he will We need to look at the attitudes and training of those find them there, and he should be speaking to the who come out of our schools, ensuring that they can motion. He said two things that were incorrect. He said add up and have basic English and social skills, as it is that we would be spending more than the Government. often people’s attitude that gets them a job. We must In the autumn statement, this Government said that consider what our universities are teaching people, because they would spend more than Labour. One tool of it is no good if everybody comes out with a degree in employment is taxation. Does he agree that reducing media studies. There will always be some jobs for some VAT temporarily during the previous recession helped people in the media, but not for all those who want employment and consumers? Would he support something them. of that nature now? I have spoken to a number of people working in companies that are contributing a lot to this country—gas David T. C. Davies: The hon. Gentleman ought to and oil companies and so on—and they say that they know that I will always support any kind of tax cut if it have had to go abroad to find people because there are is affordable and I welcome his conversion to that idea. not enough with the necessary practical skills in this I recall him talking about what happened when Labour country. By that I mean people who do not mind getting got in, but he forgot one or two important facts. He their hands a bit dirty. I spent four or five years getting 855 Unemployment14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 856

[David T. C. Davies] 3.45 pm Mr Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab): May I give my hands a bit dirty, as did many people on the Opposition the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) a Benches. I have no problem with that whatsoever. little history of how the economy is affected from time Unfortunately, some young people in this country at the to time in the United Kingdom, as it has been for moment do. centuries and will carry on being, because unforeseen things come along and rock economies, as we experienced Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): I am grateful in 2008-09 under the previous Labour Government? to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, but may I urge That should not cloud the issues before us in the motion him to focus on the issue of joblessness rather than that my Front Benchers have tabled and I support, worklessness? I think that was an offensive remark, because the figure of 2.638 million unemployed people although I am sure that he made it unintentionally. We in this country represents a massive amount of human have Office for National Statistics data giving the numbers suffering, costs the economy and will go on doing so for of vacancies and the numbers of people who are generations if it is not tackled. The hon. Gentleman unemployed, particularly young people. In neighbouring asked whether people are leaving school with the right constituencies, such as Hartlepool, which is just to the language, literature and other skills to go into the south of me— workplace, but, having been a Member for 28 years, I have listened to such debates, and at certain points we Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Briefly. decided to tackle the major issues that needed to be tackled in order to ease the problems that mass David T. C. Davies: I take the hon. Gentleman’s unemployment has caused. point. I am focusing on the fact that there are jobs out Today’s rise in unemployment is our biggest there for some people and that there are some people since July 1994. The regional breakdown for Yorkshire who will not take jobs. I accept that there are not and Humberside shows that employment—not enough jobs and we would all like to see more. unemployment—has fallen by 70,000 over the last quarter; One thing the Government can do—I think they are that unemployment has increased by 9,000 on the previous considering this—is look at the red tape imposed on quarter; that it stands at 253,000; and that the number small businesses. When I ran a small family business, I of people claiming jobseeker’s allowance has increased was reticent to take people on because if we took on a by 500 on the previous month. That tells me and most contract to move goods from A to B that lasted for nine people that there is something seriously wrong with the or 12 months and took on some extra drivers to do that, path that the Government are taking to turn the economy we were stuck if we suddenly lost the contract because around, and that a large amount of money will have to we found it very difficult to get rid of people. We ought be paid from the public purse to keep the figures as they to look at lifting the red tape so that companies can take are. a risk by taking somebody on. If that does not work Youth unemployment went up by 54,000 in the three out, sadly, they might have to let them go but a lot of months to October and now stands at more than 1 companies would hang on to people if they could. It is million, the highest level since comparable records began not the public sector out there—things are a lot harsher. in 1992. I brought the matter up at Prime Minister’s The hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Question Time today, noting that more than 22% of Green) is laughing, but I wonder whether she has ever 16 to 24-year-olds who could be economically active are tried to run a small business. We are also, I am glad to unemployed, an increase of 1.2% on the previous quarter. say, looking at the green taxes that have been levied on That has major implications for the British economy the big industries, because there is absolutely no point and, certainly, for young people. in hitting big manufacturing companies with carbon Long-term youth unemployment has gone up to 141,200, and environmental taxes if they are simply going to the highest level since July 1997, and by 68,000 alone relocate to the other side of the world and make their since January, a rise of 93%. goods over there, taking jobs with them and probably creating even more carbon as they ship back whatever it was they were making. Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): Government Members are obsessed with immigration, when there is youth I have only 45 seconds left, but I must mention the unemployment and young people are leaving school right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill, who without the skills to fill the jobs that are going to come was going to give way to me, but failed to do so, when up. In future we will have to bring more people to this he mentioned Clement Attlee. We all supported the country to fill those jobs for which we do not have the grandiose schemes of—not Clement Attlee, sorry, Bevin, skills. who was supported by Winston Churchill at the time, the Conservative leader—[HON.MEMBERS: “Beveridge!”] Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. Beveridge, sorry. Not Bevin, no, I accept that. Lots of Members are doing this: when they make an The right hon. Gentleman will know, however, that intervention or speak they have to face the Chair, not Beveridge’s plans were built on the back of a war loan turn their back to it. So, if everybody could remember from the United States, which had to be paid off for that, it would be very handy. decades afterwards; that Callaghan’s Government ended in failure; that Wilson had to devalue the pound; and Mr Barron: Long-term youth unemployment has that his own, previous, Government were responsible increased. In Yorkshire and Humberside, it increased for the biggest boom and bust in financial history— from 7,160 in January 2011 to 13,895 in November 2011. That is an increase of 94% in long-term youth Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. unemployment. In my constituency it has increased by 857 Unemployment14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 858

68.8%, while in the two neighbouring constituencies in Paul Gregg and Lindsey Macmillan that sets out in the Rotherham borough it has increased by 125% and great detail what happens to people who suffer from 80% respectively. We are talking about the life chances youth unemployment. It affects them for the rest of of young people in our constituencies being taken away their lives, not only in terms of their jobs, but in terms from them. I have not seen such increases in youth of their incomes and everything else. It is not acceptable unemployment since the 1980s, when my constituency for us to sit in this House today and watch youth and neighbouring constituencies suffered from the unemployment increasing to its current levels, which Government’s run-down of the coal industry, which not will disadvantage generations of people and their children, only put thousands of people on the dole, but struck off as well as the taxpayer, who will have to pay for it. I will the life chances of people in education trying to get into not rehearse how much it will cost, but there will be a work, as one of the major employers for young men in cost to the taxpayer—the cost to the individuals concerned my constituency was systematically closed down. The will probably be far higher—that we should guard consequences of that have run on not just for a few against. years, but for generations. I want to finish on this point. The Government’s ideology was about coming in and saying, “We get rid The Minister of State, Department for Work and of the public sector”—I have seen the damage of that— Pensions (Steve Webb): I do not doubt either the right “and we bring in the private sector.” However, for every hon. Gentleman’s sincerity or the fact that he believes 13 jobs lost in the public sector in the last quarter, only the figures that he has been given, but let me tell him one has been created in the private sector. It is not good that they are simply misleading. What used to happen is enough. The plan is not working. It is about time this that after a young person on jobseeker’s allowance had Government tried to protect everybody in this nation. gone on a scheme, the clock would start ticking as though it were day one, which meant that they had 3.54 pm disappeared from the long-term youth unemployment figures. The right hon. Gentleman is comparing figures Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD): Of course it is that exclude those young people with those that include right that we are debating this important issue today. them, so the rise that he describes has not happened in Everybody knows that unemployment is a serious problem the way that he believes. across the country. We seem, however, to have had the same Opposition day debate over and over again. The Mr Barron: The idea that we should come here and same people have been in the Chamber repeatedly over dance around about whether all the figures are accurate, the last few months, and every debate follows the same when there are 2.6 million unemployed people in this pattern. Labour never accepts responsibility for the country, is not sensible. [Interruption.] I do not know: I economic mess in which we find ourselves and no new am not a Minister, and I do not study the briefs that the ideas on how to tackle the problem are offered; the Minister studies. What I do, and what I have done for same old failed ideas are repeated in every debate. over 28 years, is represent a constituency that is largely poor, with far too much deprivation in all sorts of areas, Fiona O’Donnell: Will the hon. Lady give way? whether in terms of ill health, high unemployment or anything else. I saw that change in my lifetime, over a Jenny Willott: No, I will not. There will be plenty of decade, which affected the lifestyles of many people in opportunities for others to speak later. I hope that by my constituency. I see from today’s statistics and what not giving way, as many Back Benchers as possible will has been happening over the past 12 months that things have the opportunity to contribute. are returning to how they were decades ago. It is wrong The Government are trying to rebalance the economy and it is unfair, and I am not going to come to this place left to us by Labour. Labour relied on the public sector and listen to a debate about “the national economy” for far too long to make up for declining growth elsewhere, this or “the national economy” that. We need to look at and it did not support the private sector in the good the crucial issues of how to help the young generation. times. Some areas have stratospheric levels of public sector employment. In Merthyr Tydfil, for example, Mr Byrne rose— more than 40% of people—more than four in 10—are employed in the public sector. That is clearly not sustainable Mr Barron: I will give way to my right hon. Friend, across the country as a whole. We must work to increase but I want to finish quickly. employment in other sectors—the private sector has already been mentioned and other Members have Mr Byrne: My right hon. Friend is making a mentioned the voluntary or third sector—to reduce our characteristically powerful speech. The truth is that the reliance on the public sector and ensure that we have a House of Commons Library is clear: in January 2011, much better balanced economy that is better able to long-term youth unemployment in his constituency was absorb shocks from the global economy and future 160, but it is now 270, a rise of more than 68%. Under recessions. anybody’s definition that rise is unacceptable, and the There is some evidence that we are starting to see Government should be doing more to bring it down. progress. I would take issue with the figures of the right hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron). My Mr Barron: I agree entirely with my right hon. Friend. understanding is that public sector employment fell last If anybody wants to know the consequences of youth year by 276,000, but that employment in the private unemployment—not just now, but in the future—they sector increased by 262,000—a difference of only 14,000 could do worse than look at the article headed “Future jobs. Almost all the jobs lost in the public sector have costs of youth unemployment” on the BBC business been replaced by an increase in jobs in the private news website, which refers to an academic paper by sector. 859 Unemployment14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 860

Fiona O’Donnell rose— people skills, and acquiring new skills that they can take into work when jobs are created. Some may be inspired Jenny Willott: I am not going to give way. to set up their own businesses—older people who have There are problems in the eurozone, problems with experience and skills that they can take into bank lending and so forth, which have a serious impact entrepreneurship, and young people who are brimming on job creation in the private sector, but we can say that with ideas. we are starting to see some progress, and the Government I accept that the unemployment figures are an individual are trying to encourage even more progress. The Minister tragedy for all the people affected, and I am sure that we of State, Department for Work and Pensions, the right all feel the same, but relying on the ability to borrow hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), more money will not help us to find a way out of this who is responsible for employment, announced in the situation. We need to see investment, and to see the autumn statement measures to stimulate growth. Rather Government putting their money where their mouth is. than try to borrow their way out of a debt crisis, the Government are being more pragmatic and sensible. I welcome some innovative ideas for raising money—working 4pm with pension funds, for example, to unlock £20 billion of investment. That is better than the Government Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): The dire simply borrowing more and more money, which has news presented by the latest unemployment figures been shown not to work. should cause members of the Government to hang their heads in shame, but there are not many present to do I share the concerns of some Labour and Government that today. The Government have promised much, but Members about the level of youth unemployment. I instead of delivering on their promises, they have proceeded know that this is a concern across the House. Under to devastate the lives of ordinary hard-working people— Labour, youth unemployment rose nearly 75% between people such as nurses, engineers, chemical process workers, 2001 and 2010, so it was a serious problem before this local authority employees, shop assistants and even Government came to power. There has been an increase, members of our armed forces, some of whom return however, in the number of young people who are from action on behalf of our country to learn that their unemployed, and I know that Ministers, too, are deeply jobs are either gone or under threat. concerned about that. I am glad that the Government are investing in trying to tackle it. We need to recognise We were promised a private sector jobs revolution, that it is going to be tough for young people in the near but, as the Prime Minister had to admit today when future, and we need to do more to make them as challenged by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the employable as possible so that when jobs are created Opposition, he has failed to deliver on that promise. His and become available, they can take them up. failure is proving expensive, not just for the millions We know from past experience, and from the experience who are unemployed, but for our country. Instead of of unemployed people today, that people who are seeking investing billions in infrastructure, house building, new work and spending all their time going to the job centre hospitals and other job creation schemes, the Tory and applying for jobs can find the experience hugely Government are throwing that money away on escalating demoralising, and it can lead to depression and mental unemployment benefit bills which, sadly, are likely to health problems. For decades, that has been a problem increase even more in the future. for people facing unemployment. We need to make it easier for younger and older people facing unemployment Gordon Banks: Is not one of the problems the fact to volunteer in order to build their skills, to learn what that the Government seem to view the public and they enjoy doing, to get useful information for their private sectors as two separate entities, although one CVs, to get good references and to help keep them cannot survive while the other is being cut to death? closer to the job market. Jobcentre Plus and the Work programme providers Alex Cunningham: I agree. My hon. Friend provided could work with the local voluntary sector and others in an illustration of that earlier when he mentioned the job many areas to identify more opportunities for those on losses that have been announced in a company in his jobseeker’s allowance to volunteer. There are already constituency. For some time the Tories said that we did many opportunities across the third sector, which we not have a plan for jobs. They may have systematically have heard about in various debates on this theme. dismantled our investment programmes for job creation, There are other ways in which unemployed people of but it is not too late for them to adopt our five-point whatever age can volunteer and build up their skills. For plan for jobs and growth. example, it is possible to become a magistrate at 21. Like others who have spoken, I shall concentrate on That is a good way in which people can gain experience the subject of young people. The acceleration in the in an area about which they would not necessarily know number of young unemployed people will help this anything otherwise, while also learning skills that they Tory-led Government to go down in history as the can transfer to employment. Charity shops are always Government who could not care less about our country’s looking for volunteers, who will have the opportunity to most important asset. gain retail experience that they too can transfer to employment. The retail sector in my constituency still Jim Shannon: It has been suggested that businesses has a significant number of vacancies, and it is one of should be given an incentive to employ people aged the sectors that are most willing to take on those who between 16 and 24, in the form of a £1,500 tax relief are furthest from the jobs market. which would cover national insurance contributions for There are plenty of ways in which we can help people a year. Does the hon. Gentleman believe that such to develop the habit of working by getting up at the initiatives are capable of providing employment for same time each day, finding out what they enjoy, learning unemployed people? 861 Unemployment14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 862

Alex Cunningham: I welcome all schemes that will young people undertook 628 pieces of individual training encourage employers to take on workers and, in particular, and achieved 80 NVQs at levels 2 and 3, and we can increase the number of young people in employment. celebrate an excellent achievement. In 1997, my Stockton borough inherited from the Labour also introduced the education maintenance Tories an unemployment rate of 14.9% among young allowance, which subsidised poorer students through people, while the national rate was 8.1%. Hard work by the sixth form, helping 650,000 16 to 19-year-olds from the Labour Government more than halved the Stockton low-income families and tackling the long-standing problem rate to 6.7%, but since then the Tories and their Liberal of a high teenage drop-out rate from education, particularly Democrat allies have allowed it to soar almost to its among poorer students. However, both these effective previous level. It is now 12.9%, which, although it may programmes were recklessly cut by the Tory-led not seem a huge number, represents 2,300 young lives. Government, who dismissed them as bureaucratic and In my constituency, I see countless young people wasteful despite their strong success in helping young wandering the streets of Billingham, Norton and Stockton, people to reach their potential. and I worry about their future. I see them peering into The £180 million bursary scheme the Tories replaced shop windows, knowing that all they can do is look. the EMA with has instead succeeded in giving 70p extra They certainly cannot buy, as they see no positive a week to 12,000 of the poorest students—while at the prospects. They know that there is no longer any support same time taking away £30 from many of their classmates that would enable them to go to college, and that even if whose finances are only marginally better. It is simply they had qualifications, possibly even degrees, their insulting that the Secretary of State for Education prospects would be extremely low in an economy that is believes that this is concentrating resources stagnant at home and across the country. “on removing the barriers to learning faced by the poorest”.—[Official Report, 28 March 2011; Vol. 526, c. 52.] Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- I strongly urge the Government to reassess their op): Will my hon. Friend endorse the work done by priorities, given that they are currently bent on making Glasgow city council? It has launched a scheme aimed access to education far more difficult and are cutting specifically at young graduates, and is using some of its everything in sight—the very things that were helping pension fund to give them an opportunity to gain young people. Such a blatant disregard for the future of employment. young people really is shameful. We should be under no illusions about the damaging effect that unemployment Alex Cunningham: I have always been a great admirer among young people can have. Failing to harness the of Glasgow City council and I am certainly not going to energy of the younger generations is eating away at the disagree with my hon. Friend there, but it saddens me foundations of all our futures. that for so many young people, the first taste of adult Work largely defines us and as a society, and we life will not be starting their first job and getting on the cannot afford to ignore the talent and potential of so career ladder, but waiting in the dole queue and competing many young people. Those one in five young people for the tiny number of vacancies available, while being who cannot find work therefore often cannot leave lectured by the Tory-led Government that there are jobs home. They remain financially dependent on their parents out there for them if only they look hard enough. and are trapped in a confidence-sapping cycle of application However, in my constituency there are 10 people fighting after application, rejection after rejection. for every job vacancy.There are 2,335 jobseeker’s allowance The current jobless figures are a wake-up call for the claimants aged between 18 and 24—an increase of 18% future for young people. Youth unemployment scars on the previous year. people for life, particularly if it is prolonged, and Earlier this year, the employment Minister singled at today’s levels it will be costing the country millions out the north-east as his “top priority” in safeguarding of pounds a week. We must not let the scourge of and protecting jobs. However, the money received from unemployment leave a permanent mark on the hundreds the regional growth fund—believed to be the cure for all of thousands of young people living through it today. our economic woes—is but a fraction of what has been We need to give those young people, and everyone else invested in recent years through the regional development window-gazing in towns and cities across the country agency. I am grateful for the money we did get in my this Christmas, real hope for the future. They see very constituency from the regional growth fund, and I was little of it now. pleased to visit one of its recipients, Darchem Engineering, last week. It is a fine example of the great British manufacturer we need to encourage, and the Government 4.9 pm cash will help to attract new investment to the north-east. Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): Listening However, while that one example is a positive one, the to the hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex amount of cash available through the fund is extremely Cunningham), one would have thought, “Oh, the Labour limited in my area, and many other companies with Government did a marvellous job. Then along came strong plans for growing their businesses and increasing this coalition and they mucked it up.” One would never the number of jobs found that the Government cash have thought it was the Labour Government who beggared chest was slammed shut in their faces. this country, who borrowed and borrowed and borrowed In my constituency alone, 166 young people aged again, who gave us the worst deficit in the G20, who between 18 and 24 took up employment and after 26 doubled national debt, who sold our gold at a record weeks, 162 of them—98%—were sustained in employment low price—£23 billion down the drain—who took £5 billion as a result of using part of Stockton’s allocation of the a year out of our pension funds, and who gave back our working neighbourhoods fund, thanks to our future EU rebate of £7 billion a year and got nothing in jobs fund. Add to that the fact that those successful return. Then, there was the moment of salvation—the 863 Unemployment14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 864

[Oliver Heald] disabled a chance of getting the help they need. That is a good thing. That programme and the youth contract, last general election. A moderate coalition Government with its job subsidies and extra incentive payments, are came in and started to make the sort of decisions that not signs of an uncaring Government. needed to be made in the national interest—the sort of decisions Labour ducked. Now, though, we are told, Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): Everything “The consequences of those difficult decisions—they’re the hon. Gentleman describes counts for nothing if all your fault.” They certainly are not. there are no jobs for those people to get. That is the If we look at the Labour years, we see that, as always problem that we face today: there are simply not enough happens with Labour, unemployment went up—to jobs in the economy for everyone who is out of work to 2.5 million by the time they left office. We see that youth get into work. unemployment rose by 270,000 under the Labour Government. Theirs was not a successful Government, Oliver Heald: The hon. Lady makes the very important but a Government who led Britain to the brink of point that we need growth in our economy, and that to bankruptcy. It is our Government—the coalition achieve that we need a range of measures to stimulate Government—who are rescuing this country. Of course growth. I agree, and that is what the Government announced it is not easy. It is right to say that every redundancy is a in the autumn statement. She should not, however, treat personal tragedy—of course it is. We must try to do all the whole country as though it were the same. We have we can as a country to help people back into work, but much lower unemployment in my constituency—indeed, my goodness, this Government cannot be blamed for it has fallen this month—and there is no doubt that jobs the situation from which they are trying to rescue the can be found, but that is not true everywhere. The country. picture is different in different parts of the country, but That Labour Government were also the Government if one looks at the overall picture one can say, month on who tried to hide from the realities. Take the vast month, that we have more people in the work force than number of people claiming incapacity benefit: it is this we had last month. We have seen an improvement in Government who are testing and ensuring that those some parts of the country, such as the part I represent, who receive incapacity benefit are genuinely entitled to so the picture is not hopeless. The Government have a it, and that it is not being used to mask unemployment difficult task and are tackling it seriously, but sometimes in areas where there is a particular labour market problem. we should look a little more widely at the labour market Take Labour’s measures on long-term youth and the trends within it. We are asking people to work unemployment, where a training scheme was introduced to an older age and to take on jobs that they might not after 12 months and the clock was started again, to previously have done because they were on incapacity mask what was happening in this country. Although benefit or were otherwise out of the labour market. So, 2.5 million extra jobs—half of them were part-time, of we are asking more people to try to find work against a course—were created in the Labour years, they did not background in which that is not easy, but I believe— seriously affect unemployment, which was reduced by certainly the research shows this—that it is possible for about 300,000. That is because the Labour Government us to see our GDP rise and our people go into work. were not really tackling the underlying problem of the What the Government are doing is along the right lines. 5 million people of working age who were not engaged Sir John Rose said in a speech about a year ago that in the labour market. in Britain we train people to be hairdressers when we need engineers and IT specialists. One of the good Fiona O’Donnell: Given that is now clear that the things about the Government’s apprenticeships and skills benefits bill will rise by £29 billion—higher than the programme is that it is targeted on areas in which we Government predicted—does the hon. Gentleman think have found it difficult to create skills and on areas that that the plan is working? are hard to fill, so there is a better match between skills and vacancies. The number of vacancies runs at between Oliver Heald: I think that this Government are making 400,000 and 500,000 each month, about 40% of which a serious, determined and honest effort to help people are in areas with skills shortages or areas that are hard in very difficult times. The hon. Lady talks as though to fill. If we can better match the skills to the vacancies, there is no eurozone crisis and the world is not experiencing that could help. Overall, I think the Government are on the problems it is experiencing, but those problems are the right lines. out there. This is a difficult time politically and economically, yet this Government are trying to help people. 4.17 pm Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Does the hon. Gentleman accept that, in fact, the increase in unemployment in the Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): Today’s eurozone has been much slower than the increase here? employment statistics make extremely sobering reading. They spell out more clearly than any of our speeches Oliver Heald: The hon. Lady should talk to young today just how much our economy is struggling and people in Spain, where youth unemployment is very how the recovery is faltering. We know from the Office high—as much as 30%, I am told. The same is true in for Budget Responsibility that the UK economy is Italy. The fact is that youth unemployment is a European already contracting in the final quarter of this year and problem that must be tackled in the eurozone and right we can predict with some confidence that there will be across the continent. more turbulent times in 2012. The Government are concentrating on a Work programme that, after 12 months, gives people individualised help to Fiona O’Donnell: Has the hon. Lady seen the latest look at what skills and assistance they need to get them statistics showing that Scotland had the second-worst back into work, and that, for the first time, gives the unemployment in the UK in the last quarter? Does she 865 Unemployment14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 866 think that her Government in Holyrood have any address the immediate challenges of high levels of responsibility for those figures? unemployment and a high benefits bill. I am not sure how we will pay for that in the current circumstances. Dr Whiteford: I am certainly happy to look at that because the sharp increase in unemployment in Scotland Sheila Gilmore: Will the hon. Lady give way? is very concerning. However, over the past year as a whole, unemployment in Scotland has fallen and employment has risen. That compares very favourably Dr Whiteford: I will not at the moment, thanks. Time with the record of her Administration. For most of the is pressing. past few years, employment in Scotland has outperformed In Scotland we are experiencing 32% real-terms cuts employment in the rest of the UK. That record contrasts to the capital budgets and even after the announcements sharply with the situation when Labour and the Liberal in the autumn statement, the Scottish capital budget Democrats were in coalition in Scotland. will still be cut by £3 billion over the spending period. We have to look at the big picture and remember that More importantly, 70% of the new consequentials when the Government set us down the path of austerity announced in the autumn statement will not be available a year and a half ago, many of us warned that taking until the year after next. Waiting until 2013 will not deal the feet out from under the public sector was not the with the problem that we need to tackle now. What we way to boost employment and growth in the private need is investment in infrastructure. sector. We said that the cuts went too far too quickly Much has already been said today about youth and it gives me no pleasure whatever to be proved right unemployment. For those of us who came of age in the on that front. It is now abundantly clear that the medicine 1980s there is a horrible sense of déjà vu. I was one of is not working and is not achieving the results we want. those who had to put up with the 1980s and see the I accept that the Government have not been in control problems at first hand. When I hear young people in my of some of the external circumstances, but nevertheless constituency bemoaning to me the prospects that they those risks were always apparent. The Government are now facing, I have great empathy. It was exactly the need to acknowledge that their plan is not working and same in the 1980s, when we were all told that unemployment that it is time for a change of direction. was a price worth paying, and a whole generation was What has been disappointing this afternoon is the relegated to the scrapheap. We are still living with the very ideological and doctrinaire approach taken by legacy of that and dealing with the social consequences Members on the Government Benches to their prescriptions. of it. It was not just about economics. It was about our It would be helpful if we acknowledged the interdependence society and the prospects of a whole generation. of the public and the private sectors. The bottom line is that the UK as a whole is losing public sector jobs faster Across the UK we have seen diverse approaches to than the private sector can create them. We all know tackling youth unemployment. It is far too high everywhere, that borrowing is still very difficult for small and medium- but, as we have heard today, there has been a range of sized enterprises, which is a major source of potential approaches in the devolved Administrations. In Scotland growth. We know that business confidence is low, but in there have been 25,000 apprenticeships, a significantly that circumstance it makes no sense at all to punish the higher number than before. It even exceeds what the public sector when the private sector just cannot keep UK Government are doing. University and college up. places have been maintained. Efforts have been made to ensure that apprenticeships that fall through because Paradoxically, that is the opposite of what has been companies have gone under as a result of the recession happening in Scotland. One of the interesting things— are continuing and those young people are getting back into work. The Opportunities for All initiative is making Ben Gummer: Will the hon. Lady give way? sure that every young person aged 16 to 19 will get a work or training opportunity. Dr Whiteford: Not at the moment, thank you. I hope Ministers will take the opportunity to sit down It has been evident in Scotland over the past year that with Finance Ministers across the devolved Administrations the growth of private sector employment has outweighed and look specifically at how we can tackle youth falls in public sector employment. We now have the unemployment. There are different approaches and there highest share of private sector employment that we have are good ideas coming from different parts of the UK. had since the advent of devolution. [Interruption.] It is such an urgent problem and such a challenge with Although unemployment has fallen across the piece in such serious long-term consequences that I hope the the past year, it shows that the Scottish Government’s Minister will take action. We were told in the 1980s that decision to boost investment in the public sector and in unemployment was a price worth paying. It was not a infrastructure as far as possible has been a way of price worth paying. It is never a price worth paying. It offsetting the problems of investment that have been must be the Government’s top priority. apparent in other parts of the UK—[Interruption.] If the hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr McCann) wants to make an intervention, Several hon. Members rose— I am happy to accept it. If not, perhaps he could stop heckling. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. If we are serious about tackling unemployment, we There are still 12 hon. Members remaining to speak. need to accept that the cuts introduced by the Government The debate must end by 5.36 pm. I am therefore reducing are biting very hard indeed across the whole UK, and the time limit from now to four minutes for all subsequent that the announcements in the Chancellor’s autumn speakers. That will just about get everybody in, unless statement do not go far enough. Crucially, they will not there are lots of interventions. 867 Unemployment14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 868

4.24 pm that we inherited. They left this Government the note stating that they had spent all the money, but they had Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): I shall take no in fact mortgaged it. They mortgaged the future of interventions, given the need for brevity. I share the many young people in this country. concerns of my hon. Friend the Member for North East Hertfordshire (Oliver Heald) that Labour Members I have only a few seconds remaining. If the Government seem to have collective amnesia about exactly how were not taking these tough choices, more and more much they frittered away during the prosperous times young people would be looking forward to a fruitless for this nation and that they now claim that only they future without hope of social housing or affordable know how to fix it. housing, because, unlike this Government, the Opposition had no appetite when in government to tackle the I am amazed that that flexible old chestnut, the problems, and now they carp from the sidelines and bankers’ bonus, has been wheeled out yet again as a way apparently come up with solutions to fix the problems of solving all the ills. This is from a party that did not they created. tackle bankers’ bonuses in the good times, when there were plenty to tackle, and seems to have found them now as a cash cow that can be used many times—this is 4.28 pm the sixth or seventh time the Opposition have proposed Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): I am using that source of finance. They did not tackle bonuses disappointed by the previous speech, because it repeated then, yet they did abolish the 10% tax rate, which they the yah-boo exchanges on what is, frankly, a generalised seem to have forgotten about. Many women and low-paid crisis that has touched us all. The notion that it is all the workers were on that tax rate. Indeed, when I was fault of either the previous Government, or of everything knocking on doors during the 2010 election, many that has happened since May 2010, is simply not valid. people told me that after that rate was removed it was In 2008, I wrote in The Daily Telegraph a letter to my hardly worth them working. There are still people caught right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and in that trap, which the Opposition have collectively Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) stating that we should cut forgotten about. spending and taxes, and he ignored me, but the year The Labour party has also collectively forgotten that before the right hon. Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), companies have been disadvantaged by the regulations then the shadow Chancellor, wrote in The Times that it put in place. For example, Bombardier could not the model Britain should emulate was that of Ireland. I competitively tender because of the regulations that think that I was right, and I hope that Government Labour put in print, which resulted in job losses. Members think that the Chancellor was completely and Unfortunately, it also presided over the lowest number utterly wrong. of social house starts for decades. I read with interest In Rotherham we received news today that 597 more that it now proposes building 25,000 affordable homes— people are unemployed than there were this time last again using the bankers’ bonuses—but with no new year, which is an increase of about 15%. This is profoundly funding of the sort that my right hon. Friend the serious, with families now facing a miserable Christmas. Minister for Housing and Local Government has rolled out. At least this Government are making new funding I do not blame all those problems on this Government—it available, rather than relying on the ever-flexible bankers’ is absurd to do so. Around the world, we are facing a bonus. generalised crisis of the market economics—or, if one prefers, capitalist—model. There is Government debt but, as the remarkable graph put up on last night’s Albert Owen: Will the hon. Lady give way? “Newsnight” by Miss Vicky Pryce, the distinguished economist, showed, there is far greater private debt. Mrs Main: No, I shall not give way. Everybody is going through the detoxification problem I am also amazed that the Labour party, while talking of getting out of debt, and we do not know how to about wanting to attack bankers’ bonuses, was so lacking handle it. Niall Ferguson—a distinguished conservative, in its support for what our Prime Minister had to do right-wing historian—writes in Newsweek: last week, which was to defend London against being “In normal times it would be legitimate to worry about the raided by the European Union. They do not seem to consequences of money printing and outsize debts. But history”— want to do that either. I can tell Opposition Members he is writing about how people handled the 1929 Wall that many bankers and wealth generators in the City street crash and the 1931 Credit-Anstalt crash; there would otherwise have upped sticks and gone, and there was not one general crash but two— would be no bonuses for them to use in this flexible way. “tells us these are anything but normal times.” Labour Members are asking us today to believe their When Monsieur Hollande, the French Socialist candidate statistics—this from a party that spectacularly whom I wish to see elected President of France, says underestimated the number of people who would come that we should be looking at spending more money and to the UK through its failed immigration policy at only at job creation measures, he is shouted down, but I 5,000. If they looked back at the figures, they would see think he is right. Frankly, the Conservatives ought to be that they completely underestimated the number of in their own little Euro-heaven. We have conservative people who chose to come to Britain to work, so I have Governments and conservative presidents of the little faith in the statistics they regularly wheel out. Commission, the Council and the Parliament proposing They left us with the highest number of workless households fiscal austerity, balanced budgets, making the poor pay, in Europe and only now are coming up with ideas on and protecting bankers and the rich. I thought that that how to fix that. It bears no credibility. They propose was classic liberal—in the Manchester sense of the spending bankers’ bonuses multiple times and have few word—Conservative policy. I do not know why the other ideas on how to fix the failed and broken economy Conservatives are at odds with Europe, because Europe 869 Unemployment14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 870 is doing exactly what they are trying to do with the good technical education and by how workers are trained policy that is having such disastrous consequences in to provide a highly skilled work force. The success of this country. the German economy has a lot to do with that. We look to the BRICs—Brazil, Russia, India and What the Government are doing about training and China—but growth in them is slowing down. Today’s in trying to recreate the apprenticeships that fell into figures from the IMF show that Russia, South Africa disrepair is very valuable. When I go around companies and Brazil have 3% or 4% growth and China and India in Poole, including many successful companies, the have below 10% growth. There is a generalised crisis of managing directors are often not degree candidates, but world market economics. The United States is in disarray. people who started on the shop floor with an apprenticeship The United Kingdom is part of the problem as well. We in engineering and have skilled themselves up throughout are not the solution to the European crisis—we are their lives. Unless we get back to having good technical intimately part of it. There is no growth, no demand, education, I fear we will not produce a generation of increasing unemployment and increasing debt. decent managers and keep the standard of living that I am not going to say that this is all the fault of we want. decisions taken since May 2010. I wish we had a Chancellor Welfare, training and education therefore need to be of the Exchequer of the maturity of Nigel Lawson, part of the picture. However, we need to have a stable Geoffrey Howe or Denis Healey; it is rather disappointing economic environment for people to invest. We inherited that we have a PPE graduate from Oxford who has just a big deficit and it will take some years to sort things done a little bit of political research in his life. We are out. Things do not happen in a straight line. There will going to have to work these problems through be good years and bad years, and good Budgets and internationally. bad Budgets. Clearly, this is one of the years when “No man is an island, entire of itself”, things are going a bit slower, and I suspect that over the as John Donne said; every man is a piece of the continent. next four or five years, there will be years when things We will have to find global and European solutions to go a bit better. I hope that, over that time, we can create this crisis or, believe me, we will all be sunk. enough jobs to take up the slack of the public sector and that we can provide people in this country with a decent living, but it is going to be hard. 4.32 pm Nobody in this Government underestimates the task. Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): I agree with the right We have a coalition of two parties that agree that we hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane) that the need to sort the country out and to provide more world did not start in May 2010. There are 30 million opportunities. It is a moderate coalition of sensible people in the work force, and when they were educated, people and I think that it will succeed in the end, but it what they were educated in, and how they have skilled may take all five years before people make a sensible themselves throughout their lives makes a very big judgment about whether we have succeeded. difference to their employment prospects today. Therefore, whoever the Government are, they are, to some extent, presiding over the legacy of previous Governments. 4.36 pm We all know that, as a country, there are some things Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): I want to tell the we have done well and some things we have done badly. House the story of Chris, a young man in my constituency. Being out of work is a tragedy for anybody, but over the I know his story only because a friend of mine gave him past 10 or 20 years, this country has not done too badly a lift home last night. in keeping unemployment levels below that of many countries in Europe. In Spain, for example, unemployment Chris works at Currys in Bury. Because his boss is at horrific levels. Where we have got it wrong is in would not let him leave five minutes early, he had a having, for understandable reasons, a welfare system 40-minute wait for the bus. Usually, when he gets into that has sometimes become a disincentive for people to Bolton he has to catch two more buses. The whole trip take jobs. In the Government’s reform of the welfare takes him two and a half hours each way. If it had not system—I hope that it turns out on time and to plan—they been for my friend last night, it would have taken him are trying to take away the cliff edge from those who are nearly three and a half hours to get home. It is not as out of work and perhaps not well skilled enough to get though it is a great job. He has a contract for six hours, a high-paid job so that they can take a job because it is which he believes is so that his employer can get rid of worth their while to do so. That is a very important part him easier. However, as he says, any job is better than of the future of our nation. Over the past 18 months, we none. It is no wonder that Chris is desperate to keep his have still had people with skills coming in from abroad job. With more than six people fighting for every vacancy and taking jobs. Under the last Labour Government, in Bolton West, he knows that he is lucky to have about 2 million jobs were taken by people coming in anything. from abroad. That meant that we have not been able to People in my constituency are scared: scared that motivate our own people to take those jobs. Welfare they will lose their jobs, scared that they cannot afford reform must be part of that. to pay their bills and scared that they cannot see anything We must look at our education system and put a lot getting any better. The Prime Minister is proud to state more effort into technical education. Since Beveridge that interest rates are at an historic low, but he forgets to and the Education Act 1944, this country has not done tell everyone that he inherited low interest rates. The as well as many of those on the continent, particularly much more important measure of the health of our the Germans, in technical education, which was never economy is growth. What do we have? We have no properly developed. When I look at Germany, I am growth, borrowing up, ever-rising unemployment and impressed by how well respected people are who have a cuts to the public services that we all rely on. 871 Unemployment14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 872

[Julie Hilling] I agree with much of what the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) said about the tragedy of The figures today show that the Government’s policies, unemployment. It means a loss of self-esteem, poor like so many people in Britain, are just not working. mental health, losing the pattern and discipline of work The economy is flatlining and ordinary people are and losing hope. Listening to the debate this afternoon, paying the price. It is back to normal business for the I have found it very difficult to take the charge that all Tories—the rich play and the poor pay. The Government Government Members believe that unemployment is a want to blame everyone but themselves—it is our fault, price worth paying. I do not, but I do believe that it is it is the snow, it is the royal wedding, it is the euro. It is a very sad economic reality. time that they took responsibility for their actions and The question is how the Government should respond. time they accepted that their plans are ruining Britain Should they act as though they have all the solutions and ruining the lives of people in my constituency. and can essentially buy a load of jobs to relieve the It is not just young people who are suffering; long-term misery overnight? Would that be a sustainable solution unemployment among the over-50s is up by 20%. Just at for the affected individuals in six, nine or 12 months’ the time when people should be able to relax and enjoy time? I do not think so. their lives, and when they should be able to plan for Looking back to before the general election, I am retirement, they are thrown on to the scrap heap. certain that elements of the future jobs fund were worth I have told the House before about the 10 years in the while. However, when the Government are constructing ’80s and ’90s when I worked with unemployed young a national scheme for getting people into work, there people. That was the last time the Tories thought that comes a point when they have to consider whether such unemployment was a price worth paying. I have told the a programme is the most cost-effective way of delivering stories of the young people who took their own lives; sustainable skills and jobs that will lead people to the young people who turned to drugs and alcohol; the full-time employment for many years. young people who developed long-term mental health problems; and the young people who spent many years Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): Will the hon. unemployed. It is the truth that when the economy Gentleman give way? eventually recovered, employers preferred to take on the 16-year-olds who were fresh out of school than the John Glen: I will not, because I want to give colleagues 26-year-olds who had spent most of the previous 10 an opportunity to speak. years out of work with nothing to do and nothing to get up for. Those stories of 15 years ago are starting to I believe that two significant matters need to be repeat themselves. If the Government continue to follow examined: supply-side reform and macro-economic stability. their failed policies, we will have another generation Many Members have already spoken about the excellent with no jobs, no hope and no future. apprenticeship schemes, the work experience programme and the reforms under the new youth contract, but we The Government also ignore the health costs of need to recognise that if small businesses, such as the unemployment. Unemployed people are twice as likely many micro-businesses in my constituency, are to be to have a psychological illness than those who are confident enough to take on new people, they need to employed. Many studies in the ’80s and ’90s proved the feel that the Government are on their side. They need to links between serious diseases of major organs and know that the Government understand that they do not unemployment. It is true that unemployment makes need so much regulation. They do not need the 14 new people ill. regulations a day that they had under the last Government. The Government talk about making it easier to hire They want to know that we will exempt micro-businesses people, but in truth they mean making it easier to fire from new business regulation and EU accounting rules. people. There are people in my constituency who are Such issues influence whether a small business man not only worried about their employers’ economic future takes the leap and takes somebody on in these difficult but doubly worried that their terms and conditions times. could be changed on a whim and that they could be We also need macro-economic stability. Low interest fired despite doing nothing wrong. How can they buy a rates are important, because they condition investment house or make another major purchase that would get decisions and how people feel about their finances. the economy working when they are fearful for their They cannot spend money that they do not have in a future? way that is expensive and does not have a secure outcome. I do not believe that Ministers get it. They do not The Government will not have all the answers, but they understand the reality of people worrying about losing are on the right trajectory to relieve the misery, and I their job, or their fear of not being able to feed or clothe wish them well. their children. It is not too late to change tack and, for the sake of our constituents, the Government should do so. 4.44 pm Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): There has 4.40 pm been some dispute about whether the coalition Government John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): In my constituency, 997 are the greenest Administration, but they are definitely people are unemployed, which represents 2.3% of those good at recycling. In particular, the Prime Minister has who are economically active. I recognise that that is a recycled figures about private sector jobs in the past modest number compared with many constituencies, year and a half. Today, he said that the Leader of the but it is an absolute tragedy for every single one of those Opposition was recycling jokes, yet he recycles the individuals, particularly the 85 who have been unemployed figure of half a million private sector jobs. Initially, it for more than 12 months. was half a million in the Government’s first six months; 873 Unemployment14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 874 then, it was half a million in the year since they came to I find it deeply offensive that Opposition Members power, and now it is half a million since the election. mocked this afternoon every time Government Members The problem is that it is exactly the same half a million said that we were trying to do something for the unemployed jobs. Half were created in the first quarter of the in this country. They are laughing at the unemployed. financial year that started in 2010. What caused that—the Do you know why you are laughing at the unemployed? actions of the Government? I think not. It was the Because the left has always used the unemployed as a stimulus provided by the previous Government, whom political tool. If you keep people down, you try to use the coalition Government are so fond of rubbishing. them as a tool. And what did you do in 13 years of They do that consistently. After that burst of jobs, government? You borrowed huge amounts of— almost nothing has happened. The promise that if we squeezed the public sector, the private sector would rise Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I up, take the strain and create jobs is not being fulfilled. understand the hon. Gentleman feels very strongly about Until we and our constituents see signs of that, we will this, but he is addressing me, the Chair. He will not use simply not believe the Government. the word “you”; he will please refer to “hon. Members”. As well as job figures, the Government are recycling ideas. Part of their approach since the election has been Alec Shelbrooke: I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker, to suggest that unemployment is somehow a problem of but for 13 years, the Labour party bought jobs and did individuals—of their not being willing, skilled enough not lay a foundation for moving forward. It was left to or having the financial incentive to work because the this coalition Government—two of the major parties of benefits system is so generous. I was fascinated to come this country coming together—to try to put in place the across a quotation from Sir John Anderson, who was proper foundations. head of the then Prime Minister’s Secretariat in 1930. The smiles of glee cannot be wiped off the faces of At a time when people were worried about unemployment, Opposition Front Benchers when there is bad economic he said: news. That is reprehensible. Jobs cannot be bought by “Unemployment statistics give an exaggerated view of the borrowing; economic stability that will last must be put magnitude of the problem”. in place. The difference between Government Members and Opposition Members is that we try to govern for Why? Because the future of this country. Whether or not we are in “a large number of people really abused the Unemployment power, we mean to ensure that we do what is right for Insurance Scheme”. this country. All the Labour party did was try to hang I do not think that many would say that unemployment on to power, which is why we today face one of the in the 1930s was caused by people abusing an extremely biggest economic crises and the fastest growing level of low amount of benefit. It shows that nothing changes. unemployment in decades. The Conservative party has always said that at times of It is no good Opposition Members harking back to high employment. Increasingly, its coalition partners the ’80s and ’90s. We should not forget the very different are also saying it. It was said in the 1930s and it was not circumstances, especially of the 1980s. The fact is that true then; it is said now and it is still untrue. this Government have been dealt a terrible economic That is not to say that training is not important, but it hand. I make the point again: it is not a Tory Government, is not new, either. In Edinburgh, the city council considered as was said earlier, but a coalition Government of the employment in the first decade of this century. We had two main parties of this country, which came together historically low unemployment at that stage, but a residual to sort this mess out. We have been mocked this afternoon. number of people were out of work, some for a long I have listened carefully and although the hon. Member time. We considered training schemes and specialised for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) made a good speech, the job academies. For example, we had a health care most impassioned was by the right hon. Member for academy and a social care academy, and we know that Rother Valley (Mr Barron)—he was the one who meant taking action is not always easy. The trouble with the what he said. Other than that, unemployment has been Government is that they think they are at ground zero used as a political football. with many things. They imply that we did nothing and that they have sprung into life to make things better. Grahame M. Morris: If the hon. Gentleman is advocating Yes, we need to train people properly, but training is a particular course, he might give his opinion on this not a job. The Work programme does not of itself question: would he pay his 15-year mortgage off in five create jobs. We must be absolutely clear about that. years if it meant sending his children to school hungry and without shoes?

4.48 pm Alec Shelbrooke: My response to that rather strange Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): This analogy is that if we were to follow the route taken by debate is about unemployment and what can be done the Labour party, interest rates in this country would about it. However, the consideration of what unemployment rise, hard-working families up and down the country means has been lost in some of our discussion. On would be paying another £1,000 a month on their Thursday, when travelling, we were delayed for an hour mortgages and their children would go to school hungry, because someone had fallen in front of train in Alexandra because of the folly of Labour’s policies. Palace. I do not know whether it was a suicide attempt. We have only to look at events around Europe. A At the weekend, we had the news in Leeds that a father 40% cut in public sector wages was proposed in Greece, had murdered his family and killed himself. Suicide is but Ireland cut public sector wages by 15% to get on top increasing and there must be a link with the economic of things, and yet all the Opposition say is that we situation. I hope that all hon. Members would deem should spend more money and buy jobs. That does not that the personal disaster that it is. lay the foundations to move this country forward. 875 Unemployment14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 876

Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): My hon. Friend is closed that we saw significant increases in unemployment making a powerful point. As a fellow Yorkshire MP, and incapacity claims. As hon. Members have already does he agree that if we are to tackle unemployment in said, there is a human cost to unemployment. After the north, we must tackle the north-south divide, which closing the pits in Easington and in the north-east, the sadly widened under the previous Administration? Conservatives left villages, towns and entire communities without work. Alec Shelbrooke: I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. We could list example after example of when Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend infrastructure spending was removed from the north of agree that the unemployment statistics in Easington are England and brought down to marginal seats in the very similar to those in Wansbeck? In my constituency, south in what can only be described as an attempt to there is in excess of 30 people applying for each job hang on to power, not operating in the best interests of vacancy and that is intolerable. The Prime Minister has this country. kept one of his promises: before the election, he said A bit of humility from Opposition Members would that the north-east would be hit the first and hit the not go amiss in this debate. Very few Opposition Members hardest. have this afternoon spoken about trying to tackle the problem. I go back to where I started: when someone Grahame M. Morris: Indeed. I share my hon. Friend’s becomes unemployed, it is a massive tragedy for that concerns, and that has certainly been the case. We are family. Where will they find the money to pay the bills? facing a worsening of the north-south divide. It is also Where will they find the money for Christmas? It is no the case that the north-east has faced some of the worst wonder that there is a rise in suicide rates. Opposition increases in unemployment across the UK. The hon. Members should not dare say that Government Members Member for Salisbury (John Glen) said that there were believe that that is a price worth paying. We do not. We 1,000 people out of work in his constituency. There is believe that we need to put in place the strong foundations more than three times that number in my constituency. for an economy that will work in the long run, and that The number of 18 to 24-year-olds out of work in will work for generations beyond the one that has been Easington has increased by 65%. For the over-50s, the terribly let down by the previous Labour Government. figure is up 58%, which is just as concerning. The situation for those out of work in the north-east is much bleaker than in many other regions. 4.54 pm Unemployment and worklessness are not evenly spread Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): I rise to across the country. Indeed, they are concentrated in support the motion in the name of my hon. and right particular pockets, largely the older industrial areas of hon. Friends on the Front Bench. We are aware of the the north-east, Merseyside, Scotland and Wales, and national figures, so in the limited time that I have I will that makes unemployment far harder to deal with. I concentrate on the picture as it affects Easington and should like to commend the excellent work carried out the north-east region. by Professor Steve Fothergill and his colleagues at Sheffield As Opposition Members are aware, the north-east Hallam university in identifying some possible solutions. has suffered more than perhaps any other region. I know that time is short, so I will bring my speech to a Unemployment currently stands at 11.7%. In both the close. public and private sectors, unemployment is rising unabated There are real concerns about the Government’s as a direct consequence of the Government’s policies. intentions in relation to workfare. If jobs exist, why are As we already know, the public sector is losing jobs they not being offered as real jobs with real wages? We more than 13 times faster than the private sector can need a plan from the Government for jobs and growth. create them. We were promised a private sector-led Our Front-Bench team has a five-point plan to kick-start recovery. We were told that the public sector jobs that the economy, but the Government could go further. have been lost in the north-east—we have lost more There are some helpful suggestions from the Institute than 32,000 so far—would be replaced by a growing for Public Policy Research for supporting employment, private sector. That clearly has not happened over the and I raised them with the Minister of State, Department past 12 months. for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Thornbury The latest job figures show that the north-east has and Yate (Steve Webb), in a recent Adjournment debate. lost a larger proportion of jobs than anywhere else in I would point out, however, that the Government’s the country. We have 6,000 fewer jobs in the construction promises on jobs and growth are as hollow as a chocolate sector compared with the same period last year. Clearly, Father Christmas. Government policy has had a direct impact on the private sector. Cutting infrastructure projects and the 4.59 pm Building Schools for the Future programme has hit Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): I want to construction jobs. The figures produced by the northern begin by answering some of the accusations made by TUC show that the public sector is losing 2,000 jobs a the hon. Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec month. Shelbrooke). I do not think that it is a price worth As my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North paying to see the failure of this Government just so that (Alex Cunningham) mentioned, the Conservative we can get any kind of political advantage. He should Government of the 1980s and early 1990s bear a heavy have withdrawn his remarks—Members were not laughing, responsibility for the worklessness that exists in areas we were saying that the Government’s plan is not working. such as mine. When the traditional industries were still Jobs and employment are the biggest issue in my operating—in my case it was coal mining—the numbers constituency and the latest figures now show that just of people who were employed were high and the numbers under 2,000 people are claiming jobseeker’s allowance on benefit were relatively low. It was not until the pits and chasing 191 vacancies in East Lothian. That means 877 Unemployment14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 878 that if every Member sitting on the Government Benches they think in terms of a drain on resources, and resentment went for a job, only one would stand a chance of getting and a grudging feeling come over them. They do not one. think about how to support someone like that and what I also want to address the comments made by the it might mean for someone to have reached that low hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott). She point in their life when they do not think that they have spoke about the voluntary sector and her contribution any contribution to make to society. contained a lot of sense and value. I concede that I am also particularly concerned about the increase Government Members care about unemployment. I of 55% in the number of young people in my constituency have no doubt that when the Secretary of State for who have faced no prospect of finding work since this Work and Pensions went to Glasgow East and saw what Government came into power. The future jobs fund poverty and deprivation did that he was genuinely moved, gave them hope. Government Members keep yelling but I think there is a real gap when it comes to introducing that it did not lead to real jobs, but the hon. Member for policies and systems that help and support people in Cardiff Central, to give her credit again for bringing getting out of poverty and long-term unemployment. some reason into the debate, talked about the elements The Government talk about the voluntary sector playing of the fund. She described eloquently how it helped a role when they are cutting the public sector, but the young people to break the habit of not getting up in the voluntary sector, which played such an important role morning, to gain self-esteem and to feel not only supported in the future jobs fund, is now less able to respond to but understood. people’s needs. We take no joy in the Government’s failure to address The hon. Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) made the needs of people who are seeking work, or to create the most unhelpful remark in the entire debate when she the jobs that could lift them out of poverty. It is not a said that the Prime Minister went to Europe to stand up price worth paying for the political advantage that we for London. I remind her—even the Prime Minister are benefiting from. knew this—that there are financial services sector jobs across the United Kingdom, not only in London. 5.5 pm Mrs Main rose— Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): The latest unemployment figures are absolutely shocking: 133,000 in Wales alone; Fiona O’Donnell: I will give way, but I am going to try and, in some areas such as the Rhondda, 20 people are to be disciplined and not take the extra time. chasing every single job vacancy. As we look around our constituencies, we see people losing their jobs because Mrs Main: I thank the hon. Lady for giving way and I of the Government’s savage cuts to public services, and completely agree with her. That is why I am sure that because private firms that thrived on public procurement she is as surprised as I am that those on the Opposition are seeing their order books empty. We see people losing Benches did not agree with the Prime Minister. jobs in the private sector because consumer confidence is low and demand is down, and we just need to look at Fiona O’Donnell: What I had really hoped for was a our high streets and town centres to see shops closing, little humility. We have been preached to about humility, including those of big household names and local but the hon. Lady completely failed to recognise that businesses. there are financial services sector jobs in other parts of If any programme to get people back into work, such the country. My constituency is heavily dependent on as the Work programme, is going to be successful, and if the financial services sector in Edinburgh, and we will people are going to have a chance of getting a job, the see what happens. The signs since this Government Government need to get their act together and get a came into office have not been good. growth strategy—now, before it is too late; now, before The Government offer us the Work programme. I any more firms go bust; now, before any more shops on have been to visit the providers in my constituency. A our high streets close; and now, before any more families woman opened up a spreadsheet and said she was not suffer the scourge of unemployment. sure whether she was meant to show me it. It was, in But we see nothing from the Government that will effect, a profit and loss account showing at each quarter stimulate consumer confidence or demand. On the contrary, how many people the providers need to help into work we have seen this shameless coalition Government hike to get a return on the payments from the Government. VAT up to 20%, despite the fact that just before the The most depressing thing was seeing the percentage election, in April 2010, the Conservatives and the Lib they expected not to find their way in to work at the end Dems vigorously denied any intention of increasing it. of the two years. Now, they are ignoring Labour’s calls to cut it. My fear is that providers will not invest the resources The Federation of Small Businesses has described the in supporting that percentage, whom we could probably Government’s abysmal attempts at a growth strategy as all identify when they walk in the door, when they are the very people who need more help and support to “too timid and out of touch with the reality of the UK’s sluggish take them back into work. This is where the Government economy.” do not get it. Indeed, back in July the British Chambers of Commerce I remember during the 1997 general election knocking said that the Government’s deficit reduction plan was on a door and meeting a woman who was still in her “already dampening demand and adding significantly to the pyjamas in the early afternoon and trying to convince pressures facing businesses and individuals.” her that she could get out, vote Labour and make a It called on the Government to strengthen their efforts difference. She did not even have a reason to get dressed. to stimulate growth. Did the Government listen then? When Government Members hear of a case like that, No. Are they listening now? No. 879 Unemployment14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 880

[Nia Griffith] a plan to promote economic stability and growth, and avert a crisis in the euro and a national sovereign debt We have not seen the long-term strategies or the crisis across Europe. We all know that we did not want certainty that firms need in order to invest. Let us take the financial transaction tax, but that could have been the feed-in tariff fiasco. In my constituency alone, we vetoed at a later date. are losing many jobs, because a new policy has been introduced in only six weeks, just like that, meaning that We have a deficit, as we all know, two thirds of which nobody has the confidence to put up the £10,000 to was the responsibility of the international financial install solar panels on their roof. What other scheme do markets and the banks. The remaining third was due to the Government have in mind whereby people put up the excess investment over earnings of the Labour £10,000 up-front to help to secure jobs in their local Government. There should be no apology for that, economy? I do not think they have one other idea. because that investment was in lower VAT, the car scrappage scheme and so on, which stimulated growth In Wales we can show Members a better way—the on the back of what could have been the worst depression one mentioned in the motion before us is being put into since the ’30s, and reduced the deficit forecasts by some practice by the Welsh Government. The Labour £22 billion. With the change of Government there was a Government in Wales are creating 4,000 jobs a year for change of focus, from growth to cuts. Growth has now young people in the private sector through the Jobs stopped. The immediate judgment of the new Chancellor Growth Wales programme; helping to create jobs in the was to announce 500,000 job cuts and, for instance, 7% construction sector by continuing to build schools and cuts in local government for four years. That meant that houses; and helping businesses by making £55 million everyone in local government thought they were bound available in grants and loans to them. The problem, to lose their jobs and therefore stopped spending. The however, is that the Welsh Government are having to do reduction in consumption and spending has meant a this against the background of UK Treasury policies, depression in growth. Now the deficit forecasts are not which are making it very difficult for any business to going down, but going up. They went up to £46 billion, flourish. We have a Chancellor who is determined to and now they are £158 billion. suck money out of our local economies, making it extremely difficult for local businesses to keep going. As for business and inward investment, the Chinese We all know that people on the lowest and most are coming to Cardiff tomorrow. They are concerned modest incomes spend their money most rapidly in the about a country whose growth is flatlining, which has local community, because they have to for their day-to-day strikes and riots provoked by the Government parties’ needs, so let us look at a few examples of how the policies, where crime is rising for the first time and Government are squeezing hard-pressed families and waiting lists are going up—again, through cuts—and sucking money out of our local economies. First, there where the educational standards of those going to is the VAT hike, which I have mentioned. university are beginning to fall off. In other words, this Secondly, there is the winter fuel allowance. Most dualist idea—that if we get rid of the public sector, the pensioners, certainly in Wales and in many unemployment private sector will be all right—is completely fallacious. hot-spots across the UK, are not millionaires but need The Labour party has a five-point plan. For example, that £100, so they are transferring money that they the VAT change would stimulate £46 million in the local would have spent in the local economy and putting it by economy in Swansea, helping to create new jobs, while to pay for their fuel. That money is leaving the local lower national insurance rates would also be helpful in economy, with the economy in Wales alone losing some stimulating building businesses. £31 million. I should mention that the interest rates that we now Thirdly, we have real cuts dressed up as freezes, such enjoy are thanks to the Labour Government making as those on public sector pay and on child benefit, and the Bank of England independent. We remember the they are translating into money that people do not have last time the Tories were in, when interest rates hovered to spend in the local economy. Fourthly, the 3% hike in between 10% and 15%, so I will take no lessons from the pension contributions is taking £2.8 billion out of the Conservatives about how the austerity plans and economy; and fifthly, tax credits are being taken away unemployment are the reason for low interest rates. In from people who work less than 24 hours a week. But fact, since the summer, interbank borrowing rates—that people just cannot, unfortunately, get those hours, and is, wholesale rates—have increased by 1%, so small they are from some of the very poorest households. businesses are suffering. They are trying to work and to keep the family together, yet they are going to have even less money to spend and Finally, there is a glimmer of hope for the future in less money to stimulate the economy, so there are going Swansea and Wales, thanks to the standard and quality to be even more job losses. The Government must do of research and development in both our universities, something now to put that right and get growth going. which are working with UK Trade & Investment to network into international markets. However, with an enterprise zone in Bristol, parked on the gateway to 5.9 pm Wales, we are not helped, frankly, by the continuation Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): The last of rising tolls on the Severn bridge, especially when we Labour Prime Minister will be remembered in the economic see them being cut on the Humber. That is basically history books as the man who in 2008, alongside President leading to disinvestment in many investment projects, Obama, averted a depression of a 1930s quantum by whether in St Athan or the Severn barrage. There is invoking a fiscal stimulus. The current Prime Minister hope, but we need a refocus on growth, instead of an may well be remembered as the Prime Minister who endless focus on cuts. Anyone who runs a business that prematurely used his veto to stop Europe putting together is making a loss needs to focus on revenue, not just 881 Unemployment14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 882 cutting everything. The Government need to think again Finally, let me support the comments of my hon. and remember the success of the previous Labour Friend the Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith). The Government. Government have tools at their disposal not to make the situation worse. I ask them to look urgently at two 5.13 pm aspects of tax credits. The first is about the operation of the rule that, as my hon. Friend said, requires couples to Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): Let me work a minimum of 24 hours. We know that employers make a few brief points. There is a lot of emotion and are not able to offer more hours in the current economic pain about rising unemployment, for the many reasons climate, and that rule is going to drive people out of the that were eloquently expressed by many Members from workplace. I also ask Ministers to look once again at across the Chamber, including, as the hon. Member for the operation of the child care element of working tax Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke) said, my hon. credit. Aviva has shown us that about 32,000 women are Friend the Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) and leaving the workplace because they cannot make work my right hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley pay. That is a false economy, and I hope Ministers (Mr Barron). We make those emotional points strongly will— not because we want to re-fight the class wars of the 1980s and 1990s, but because we want to ensure that we learn to understand the impact of letting unemployment Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. rise unchecked without properly and effectively intervening. I therefore hope that Government Members will not misinterpret me when I say that one of the things that 5.17 pm we should learn about—in addition to what happens Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): We have had an when whole generations are lost, along with the insult interesting and worthwhile debate. and disrespect that they feel—is what that leads to, in terms of alienation and the kind of behaviours it can In June last year, the Prime Minister told the House drive. When we look at the lessons from the interim that cutting the deficit faster would revive private sector report of the official inquiry into the riots, I hope that confidence. That was the basis for the whole plan: we will take note of the rising sense of alienation private sector investment and jobs would surge, and among our young people and ensure that our employment new private sector jobs would outweigh public sector policies specifically address it. job cuts. We now know that that plan has not worked. I want to ask a couple of questions about the Work My hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) programme. It cannot resolve the shortage of jobs, but and the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) it can prepare people to be better able to take the were right to underline that the key assumption that opportunities if and when they are made available. It is confidence would surge has proved to be wrong. The a matter of great regret to many Labour Members that new “Business Confidence Monitor” from the Institute there is so little transparency about how the Work of Chartered Accountants says: programme is performing. “UK business confidence has collapsed…Confidence has declined I hope that the introduction of the wage subsidy, across all sectors and all regions.” which it seems might be related in some way to the My right hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham operation of the Work programme, will not mean a (Mr MacShane) was right to underline the seriousness double payment to Work programme providers or a of the crisis we face. double cost to the economy. I hope the Minister can Nobody claims that the coalition strategy has worked reassure us on that. I hope, too, that he will say something to boost confidence. We will take different views about about whether providers continue to see Work programme the reasons why it has not worked, but the fact that it contracts as viable. Providers in my region are certainly has not worked is beyond dispute. Public sector job cuts expressing the concern to me that the lack of jobs now far exceed new private sector jobs—by 67,000 to means that it will not be possible for them to carry on 5,000 in the last quarter. My hon. Friend the Member without coming back to have further discussions with for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) was right to draw the Government about the payment structure and rewards attention to the fact that Conservative Members like to built into the contracts. We need to know just how look further back, closer to the election, when there Ministers see the economic and financial viability of the were still beneficial effects from the previous policies. Work programme in these very different economic Today, however, private sector job creation has completely circumstances from those in which the contracts were stalled. designed and let. The Office for Budget Responsibility tells us that The Minister should acknowledge that the payment more than 700,000 public sector jobs will go; already, structure in the Work programme does not reward for the first time, more than a million young people are people only for getting someone a job and keeping them out of work. My hon. Friends the Members for Ynys there for two years. There should be interim payments Môn (Albert Owen), for Stockton North (Alex all the way through. When we look at the way in which Cunningham) and for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) people are moving into employment, I am particularly pointed out what that means in communities around concerned that we do not move them just to short-term, the country. stop-go, sporadic episodes of employment, whereby Work programme providers pick up some of the payment What are the Government doing? Not long ago, and redesign their model to make it sufficiently economically the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, viable for them to keep the contract manageable, but do the right hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris not deliver the sort of long-term sustainable jobs that I Grayling) told us that all this fuss about youth think we all want. unemployment was a distraction. 883 Unemployment14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 884

Chris Grayling: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman, According to the foreword to the White Paper “Open who is a decent man, to go and look at the original Public Services”, signed by the Prime Minister and quotation? If he does so, he will find that I said that the Deputy Prime Minister in the days when they used to actual figure for youth unemployment was 730,000. The agree with each other, 1 million figure is not a true reflection of the position, “it is only by publishing data on how public services do their jobs because it includes a large number of full-time students that we can wrest power out of the hands of highly paid officials looking for part-time jobs. I do not count those as being and give it back to the people.” unemployed. How true that is, but in this case the Minister is resolute: they shall not know. Stephen Timms: The Minister should take that up As it happens, it is possible to glimpse how the with the Office for National Statistics. programme has been going by looking at the number of people coming off benefit each month. It is no surprise Last month the Government finally recognised that that the number plummeted in May, when the flexible they had to do something and announced the youth new deal ended. The fact that it continued to be low as contract, but they have not made up their minds about the Work programme got going should also have been the details. There appears to be some haggling with the no surprise, because that always happens. If we compare Chancellor about how it will work, and it is clear that the months after May with the same period last year, we the Government’s providers have no idea how they are see that poor Work programme performance resulted in supposed to be delivering it from next April. A year an estimated 86,000 people who should have obtained after the Deputy Prime Minister said—so he tells us—that work not obtaining it. That is probably a permanent something needed to be done, there has still been no unemployment rise. The damage will be with us for action. years. Although we do not know the details, we can say one Incidentally, to deliver that worse performance, the thing for sure: it was folly to scrap the future jobs Government had to pay out millions. I have heard that programme and allow youth unemployment to rocket. they had to pay tens of millions in penalty charges for As was recognised by my right hon. Friend the Member early termination of flexible new deal contracts. I wonder for Rother Valley (Mr Barron), my hon. Friends the whether the Minister can tell us how many millions of Members for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) and for Stretford pounds the Government had to pay to prevent those and Urmston (Kate Green), and, indeed, the hon. Member 86,000 people from obtaining jobs. for Salisbury (John Glen), a generation of young people The Government told us that the Work programme will bear the scars of that folly throughout their working would enlist an army of voluntary organisations to lives because Ministers were asleep at the wheel. All give specialist help. To begin with, we were told that along, we were assured that the solution would be in the 508 voluntary sector organisations would be involved. Work programme—that it would solve all the problems— By August, the number had fallen to 423. I met a group but the truth is that the programme was rushed and of them last month—superb organisations such as inadequately planned. As we pointed out at the time, St Mungo’s, with a great track record in helping homeless there needed to be a plan for transition from the previous people into work. They had agreements with three programmes to the new one, but there was no such plan. different prime providers in London. How many people So how has the Work programme fared? As my hon. had been referred to them for help under the Work Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston pointed programme in the six months since it started? None—not out, Ministers have gone to extraordinary lengths to a single person. Dyslexia Action has Work programme block the publication of data about what it is achieving. agreements in six different areas. How many referrals I am told that officials have threatened Work programme has it received in the six months since June? I checked providers that if they publish any figures, they will lose with it yesterday. None; not a single person; nobody at their contracts. I well understand the concern of the all. These are good organisations. They tooled up and provider in the constituency of my hon. Friend the acted in good faith on what the Minister said. He led Member for East Lothian (Fiona O’Donnell) who said, them up the garden path; he has not delivered. The “I should not show you this, because if I do I may lose Merlin standards that he said would safeguard them the contract.” have proved completely worthless. Others who have had referrals told us that relationships Absurdly, the Minister of State claims that the purpose in the Work programme are terrible. Prime providers of the ban was to meet the requirements of the United are not talking to sub-contractors; jobcentres are not Kingdom Statistics Authority. As we have been reminded, talking to prime providers; and as was rightly said he has some form with the authority. However, its earlier, there are persistent rumours of serious financial chairman wrote to me last week: problems ahead in the new year. Can the Minister who “The Statistics Authority has not been consulted on whether it is winding up tell us what contingency plan he has for would be appropriate for Work Programme providers to publish the eventuality of a Work programme provider failure? their own performance data.” The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, It was the Minister’s decision to hush things up, not the right hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell has indicated that of the United Kingdom Statistics Authority. As I that he is relaxed about that eventuality. What will the told the Minister yesterday in Committee, the same Department do if it occurs? organisations published their performance data in the It is clear that we need a new approach. We have flexible new deal, under the same United Kingdom spoken about the alternative five-point plan, which my Statistics Authority rules. They actually want to tell hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West (Geraint people what is going on and what is happening. The Davies) was right to underline. That, at last, would give Minister must lift the ban. us a chance, and it is a chance we desperately need. 885 Unemployment14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 886

5.26 pm Front Benchers have clearly supplied all their Back Benchers with figures for their constituencies. The only The Minister of State, Department for Work and problem is that all of them are wrong. Labour Members Pensions (Steve Webb): It is important in the few minutes might be interested to learn that what used to happen is remaining to put on the record some of the facts about that under measures such as the new deal, people had to the current situation, because there is a danger that the move off JSA after a certain period and were paid tenor of what we have heard from the Labour party something else—a training allowance—or they got a might talk down the British economy and lead to an temporary job; then, when they went back on to JSA, as unnecessary depressing of confidence at a time when we so many did, the clock started again. Hey presto—a need realism, not talking down the hard-working people long-term unemployed person had been converted into in our economy. a short-term unemployed person. They had not got a Let me give an example. One would hardly believe job; they had just been taken out of the figures. We have from today’s debate that since the general election, the stopped doing that. As a result, if all the factors are number of people in work in this country has risen by a taken into account—the people who were excluded quarter of a million. In fact, the number of people in from the statistics because they were on training allowances private sector jobs has risen by more than half a million. or in temporary jobs—the number of long-term claimants aged 18 to 24 is about the same now as it was in 2010. Sheila Gilmore: Will the Minister give way? To hear Labour Members, one would think that the Steve Webb: In a second. So when it is said that the numbers had doubled. The right hon. Gentleman was private sector is not expanding, that is simply not right. very angry about that, and had they doubled he would People say that there are no jobs, but there are half a be right to be so, but they have not doubled—in fact, million additional private sector jobs. The hon. Lady they are roughly the same. made the point that that is looking over the whole period, so I will take her at her word. Let us look at the Mr MacShane: Yet. last month. In it, the number of people in work has risen by 38,000. Of course, we can all choose different Steve Webb: The right hon. Member for Rotherham time periods—Labour Members used the last quarter, (Mr MacShane) said that it was “absurd” to blame all for example—but my point is that selective use of the problems on this Government. That was gracious of statistics, such as that made by the right hon. Member him, although I take great offence at his attack on for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), creates a Oxford PPE graduates, but to hear Labour Members highly misleading impression and talks down the British today, one would have thought there would have been economy in a way that is in nobody’s interests. no public sector job losses at all had they stayed in power. They were planning tens of billions of pounds of Mr Byrne: The Minister is characteristically generous cuts. How many public sector jobs would have gone had in giving way. Surely he cannot celebrate the fact that they gone ahead with their tens of billions of pounds of employment over the last quarter has fallen by some cuts? They have no idea—no idea at all. 63,000, and that 13 times more jobs are being lost in the public sector than jobs are being created in the private Several hon. Members mentioned interest rates. We sector. He cannot tell the House today that everything is were told that we inherited low interest rates, and the going well, surely. Bank of England base rate was indeed low. The question was what decisions did we, as a new Government, have Steve Webb: Of course, I did not say that everything to make to get the fiscal position under control. Because is going well, but the right hon. Gentleman cannot deny we took the difficult decisions early—pretty much every that in the last month, an extra 38,000 jobs, net, have one of which has been opposed, item by item, in the been created. We can choose different time periods. As course of this debate—the interest rates at which the my right hon. Friend the Minister of State said, the British Government are borrowing have stayed low claimant count rose by 3,000 in the last month, but that while other countries’ debt rates have soared. As a is more than offset by the fact that people who were result, in this Parliament we have saved £22 billion in previously on incapacity benefit have been reassessed debt interest—money we can spend on services and on on to JSA, and lone parents have been required to look helping the unemployed which would not have been for work and moved on to JSA. In fact, without those available had we listened to Labour. policy changes, JSA numbers would have fallen in the Early in the debate, my hon. Friend the Member for last month. That is why my right hon. Friend was Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), said that we need to absolutely right to talk about signs of stabilisation in tackle red tape. He is right, and we have the red tape the job market. challenge, which has already resulted in substantial As a number of Members on both sides of the deregulation in, for example, retail and hospitality, with House said—my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury much more to come. I am grateful to him for making (John Glen), the right hon. Member for Rother Valley that point. (Mr Barron) and others—every single person on the My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff Central unemployment roll is a person too many, but if we (Jenny Willott) highlighted the fact that pension funds overstate the doom and gloom, we talk down confidence will now be asked to invest more in the long-term in the economy, which is to the detriment of all our infrastructure of this country—and rightly so. It is constituents. shocking that, for so many years, the money in our Let me respond to the claim made by the right hon. pension funds was not invested in our long-term Member for Rother Valley and others that long-term infrastructure. This coalition Government are taking youth unemployment is up—and I quote—“93%”. Labour action to tackle that. 887 Unemployment14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 888

[Steve Webb] Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hunt, Tristram Clwyd, rh Ann Irranca-Davies, Huw The hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Coffey, Ann Jamieson, Cathy Cunningham) referred to the regional growth fund money Connarty, Michael Jarvis, Dan in his constituency, and I am grateful to him for Cooper, rh Yvette Johnson, rh Alan acknowledging the good that it can do. He asked about Corbyn, Jeremy Johnson, Diana Crausby, Mr David Jones, Graham incentives to take on the long-term unemployed and the Creagh, Mary Jones, Helen young unemployed. The youth contract is being introduced Creasy, Stella Jones, Mr Kevan so that when people take on 18 to 24-year-olds from the Cryer, John Jones, Susan Elan Work programme—so they are long-term unemployed— Cunningham, Alex Jowell, rh Tessa they will get an incentive worth £2,275. That is more Cunningham, Mr Jim Joyce, Eric than a year’s free national insurance, so it is a valuable Cunningham, Tony Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald incentive. Unlike point five of this fantastic five-point Curran, Margaret Keeley, Barbara plan we have heard about, which would reward small Danczuk, Simon Kendall, Liz firms that take on anybody—including someone they Darling, rh Mr Alistair Khan, rh Sadiq were going to take on anyway and who would have got a David, Mr Wayne Lavery, Ian job—our incentive is targeted on the long-term unemployed. Davidson, Mr Ian Lazarowicz, Mark That is the crucial point. Only one person in this debate Davies, Geraint Leslie, Chris has mentioned cost-effectiveness—my hon. Friend the De Piero, Gloria Lewis, Mr Ivan Denham, rh Mr John Lloyd, Tony Member for Salisbury. The right hon. Member for East Dobbin, Jim Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Ham (Stephen Timms) said that it was a scandal, or Dobson, rh Frank Long, Naomi something, to have finished up the future jobs fund, but Docherty, Thomas Love, Mr Andrew he should know that that fund was costing more than Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Lucas, Caroline £6,500 per place, whereas our work experience programme Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Lucas, Ian costs a twentieth of that and delivers the same sort of Donohoe, Mr Brian H. MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan outcomes. Cost-effectiveness simply is not on the Labour Doran, Mr Frank MacShane, rh Mr Denis party’s radar. Dowd, Jim Mactaggart, Fiona In the few seconds available to me I shall not have Doyle, Gemma Mann, John chance to go through all hon. Members’ contributions. Dugher, Michael Marsden, Mr Gordon Eagle, Ms Angela McCabe, Steve My hon. Friend the Member for North East Hertfordshire Eagle, Maria McCann, Mr Michael (Oliver Heald) flagged up the record national debt that Edwards, Jonathan McCarthy, Kerry we were left and my hon. Friend the Member for St Efford, Clive McClymont, Gregg Albans (Mrs Main) talked about the collective amnesia Elliott, Julie McDonagh, Siobhain of Labour Members and asked why they did not tackle Ellman, Mrs Louise McDonnell, John bankers’ bonuses. Just before the election, they introduced Esterson, Bill McFadden, rh Mr Pat a temporary bankers’ bonus tax— Evans, Chris McGovern, Jim Farrelly, Paul McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab) claimed to Field, rh Mr Frank McKechin, Ann move the closure (Standing Order No. 36). Flello, Robert McKenzie, Mr Iain Flint, rh Caroline McKinnell, Catherine Question put forthwith, That the Question be now Flynn, Paul Meacher, rh Mr Michael put. Gapes, Mike Meale, Sir Alan Question agreed to. Gardiner, Barry Mearns, Ian Main Question accordingly put. Gilmore, Sheila Michael, rh Alun Glass, Pat Miliband, rh David The House divided: Ayes 233, Noes 307. Glindon, Mrs Mary Miliband, rh Edward Division No. 413] [5.35 pm Godsiff, Mr Roger Miller, Andrew Goggins, rh Paul Mitchell, Austin Greatrex, Tom Moon, Mrs Madeleine AYES Green, Kate Morden, Jessica Abbott, Ms Diane Betts, Mr Clive Greenwood, Lilian Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Blackman-Woods, Roberta Griffith, Nia Morris, Grahame M. Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Blears, rh Hazel Hain, rh Mr Peter (Easington) Alexander, Heidi Blenkinsop, Tom Hamilton, Mr David Mudie, Mr George Ali, Rushanara Blomfield, Paul Hamilton, Fabian Murphy, rh Paul Allen, Mr Graham Blunkett, rh Mr David Hanson, rh Mr David Murray, Ian Anderson, Mr David Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Harman, rh Ms Harriet Nandy, Lisa Ashworth, Jonathan Brennan, Kevin Harris, Mr Tom Nash, Pamela Austin, Ian Brown, Lyn Havard, Mr Dai O’Donnell, Fiona Bailey, Mr Adrian Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Healey, rh John Onwurah, Chi Bain, Mr William Brown, Mr Russell Hendrick, Mark Osborne, Sandra Balls, rh Ed Bryant, Chris Hepburn, Mr Stephen Owen, Albert Banks, Gordon Buck, Ms Karen Heyes, David Paisley, Ian Barron, rh Mr Kevin Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hilling, Julie Pearce, Teresa Beckett, rh Margaret Campbell, Mr Alan Hodge, rh Margaret Qureshi, Yasmin Begg, Dame Anne Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Bell, Sir Stuart Caton, Martin Hood, Mr Jim Reeves, Rachel Benn, rh Hilary Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hopkins, Kelvin Reynolds, Emma Berger, Luciana Clark, Katy Hosie, Stewart Reynolds, Jonathan 889 Unemployment14 DECEMBER 2011 Unemployment 890

Riordan, Mrs Linda Thomas, Mr Gareth Evennett, Mr David Knight, rh Mr Greg Robertson, John Thornberry, Emily Farron, Tim Kwarteng, Kwasi Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Timms, rh Stephen Featherstone, Lynne Laing, Mrs Eleanor Rotheram, Steve Trickett, Jon Foster, rh Mr Don Lamb, Norman Roy, Mr Frank Turner, Karl Fox,rhDrLiam Lancaster, Mark Roy, Lindsay Twigg, Derek Francois, rh Mr Mark Latham, Pauline Ruane, Chris Twigg, Stephen Freeman, George Laws, rh Mr David Ruddock, rh Joan Umunna, Mr Chuka Freer, Mike Leadsom, Andrea Sarwar, Anas Vaz, Valerie Fuller, Richard Lee, Jessica Seabeck, Alison Walley, Joan Gale, Mr Roger Lee, Dr Phillip Shannon, Jim Watson, Mr Tom Garnier, Mark Lefroy, Jeremy Sharma, Mr Virendra Weir, Mr Mike Gauke, Mr David Leigh, Mr Edward Sheerman, Mr Barry Whiteford, Dr Eilidh George, Andrew Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Sheridan, Jim Whitehead, Dr Alan Gibb, Mr Nick Lewis, Brandon Shuker, Gavin Wicks, rh Malcolm Gilbert, Stephen Lewis, Dr Julian Simpson, David Williams, Hywel Glen, John Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Skinner, Mr Dennis Williamson, Chris Goldsmith, Zac Lidington, rh Mr David Slaughter, Mr Andy Wilson, Phil Goodwill, Mr Robert Lilley, rh Mr Peter Smith, rh Mr Andrew Winnick, Mr David Gove, rh Michael Lloyd, Stephen Smith, Angela Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Graham, Richard Lopresti, Jack Smith, Nick Wishart, Pete Gray, Mr James Lord, Jonathan Grayling, rh Chris Loughton, Tim Smith, Owen Wood, Mike Spellar, rh Mr John Green, Damian Luff, Peter Wright, David Straw, rh Mr Jack Greening, rh Justine Lumley, Karen Wright, Mr Iain Stringer, Graham Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Main, Mrs Anne Stuart, Ms Gisela Tellers for the Ayes: Griffiths, Andrew Maude, rh Mr Francis Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Yvonne Fovargue and Gummer, Ben Maynard, Paul Tami, Mark Nic Dakin Gyimah, Mr Sam McCartney, Jason Halfon, Robert McIntosh, Miss Anne NOES Hames, Duncan McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Hammond, Stephen McPartland, Stephen Adams, Nigel Burstow, Paul Hancock, Matthew McVey, Esther Afriyie, Adam Burt, Lorely Hands, Greg Menzies, Mark Aldous, Peter Byles, Dan Harper, Mr Mark Mercer, Patrick Amess, Mr David Cameron, rh Mr David Harrington, Richard Metcalfe, Stephen Andrew, Stuart Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Harris, Rebecca Mills, Nigel Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hart, Simon Milton, Anne Bacon, Mr Richard Carmichael, Neil Harvey, Nick Moore, rh Michael Baker, Norman Carswell, Mr Douglas Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mordaunt, Penny Baker, Steve Cash, Mr William Heald, Oliver Morgan, Nicky Baldry, Tony Chishti, Rehman Heath, Mr David Morris, Anne Marie Baldwin, Harriett Chope, Mr Christopher Heaton-Harris, Chris Morris, David Barclay, Stephen Clappison, Mr James Hemming, John Morris, James Barker, Gregory Clark, rh Greg Henderson, Gordon Mosley, Stephen Baron, Mr John Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hendry, Charles Mowat, David Barwell, Gavin Coffey, Dr Thérèse Herbert, rh Nick Mundell, rh David Bebb, Guto Collins, Damian Hinds, Damian Munt, Tessa Beith, rh Sir Alan Colvile, Oliver Hoban, Mr Mark Murray, Sheryll Bellingham, Mr Henry Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hollingbery, George Murrison, Dr Andrew Beresford, Sir Paul Crabb, Stephen Hollobone, Mr Philip Newmark, Mr Brooks Berry, Jake Crockart, Mike Holloway, Mr Adam Newton, Sarah Bingham, Andrew Crouch, Tracey Hopkins, Kris Nokes, Caroline Binley, Mr Brian Davies, David T. C. Horwood, Martin Norman, Jesse Blackman, Bob (Monmouth) Howarth, Mr Gerald Nuttall, Mr David Blackwood, Nicola Davies, Glyn Howell, John Offord, Mr Matthew Boles, Nick Davies, Philip Hughes, rh Simon Ollerenshaw, Eric Bone, Mr Peter Davis, rh Mr David Huhne, rh Chris Opperman, Guy Bradley, Karen de Bois, Nick Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Ottaway, Richard Brady, Mr Graham Dinenage, Caroline Huppert, Dr Julian Patel, Priti Brake, rh Tom Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hurd, Mr Nick Paterson, rh Mr Owen Bray, Angie Dorries, Nadine Jackson, Mr Stewart Pawsey, Mark Brazier, Mr Julian Doyle-Price, Jackie James, Margot Percy, Andrew Brine, Steve Drax, Richard Javid, Sajid Phillips, Stephen Brokenshire, James Duddridge, James Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pickles, rh Mr Eric Brooke, Annette Duncan, rh Mr Alan Johnson, Gareth Pincher, Christopher Browne, Mr Jeremy Dunne, Mr Philip Johnson, Joseph Poulter, Dr Daniel Bruce, Fiona Ellis, Michael Jones, Andrew Prisk, Mr Mark Buckland, Mr Robert Ellison, Jane Jones, Mr David Pritchard, Mark Burley, Mr Aidan Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Mr Marcus Pugh, John Burns, Conor Eustice, George Kawczynski, Daniel Raab, Mr Dominic Burns, rh Mr Simon Evans, Graham Kelly, Chris Reckless, Mark Burrowes, Mr David Evans, Jonathan Kirby, Simon Rees-Mogg, Jacob 891 Unemployment 14 DECEMBER 2011 892

Reevell, Simon Swire, rh Mr Hugo park and a garden; that the Petitioners believe that this is a Reid, Mr Alan Syms, Mr Robert much-treasured community facility used regularly by residents of Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Tapsell, rh Sir Peter all ages and that the Petitioners are concerned that the closure Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Teather, Sarah of the centre will also have a negative impact on staff and users of Robertson, Mr Laurence Thurso, John the nearby Park End Medical Centre. Rogerson, Dan Timpson, Mr Edward The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Rosindell, Andrew Tomlinson, Justin urges the Government to ask Middlesbrough Council to ensure Rudd, Amber Tredinnick, David that funding for Park End Community Centre remains in place Ruffley, Mr David Truss, Elizabeth and that the centre remains open. Russell, Bob Turner, Mr Andrew And the Petitioners remain, etc. Rutley, David Tyrie, Mr Andrew [P000989] Sanders, Mr Adrian Uppal, Paul Sandys, Laura Vaizey, Mr Edward Scott, Mr Lee Vickers, Martin BAE Systems (Humber Region) Selous, Andrew Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Shapps, rh Grant Walker, Mr Charles Sharma, Alok Walker, Mr Robin 5.53 pm Shelbrooke, Alec Wallace, Mr Ben Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): I Shepherd, Mr Richard Ward, Mr David rise to present a petition of 4,385 constituents and Simmonds, Mark Watkinson, Angela others from the Humber area against the proposed loss Simpson, Mr Keith Weatherley, Mike Smith, Miss Chloe Webb, Steve of 899 skilled private sector jobs at BAE Systems in Smith, Henry Wharton, James Brough. While Members will be enjoying the Christmas Smith, Julian Wheeler, Heather break, Boxing day will see BAE Systems complete a Smith, Sir Robert Whittaker, Craig consultation process on the loss of strategically vital Soames, rh Nicholas Whittingdale, Mr John defence jobs in a region badly hit by unemployment and Soubry, Anna Wiggin, Bill a shortage of decent jobs, as we saw again in today’s Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Williams, Mr Mark jobless figures. Over 100 of the workers met the Prime Spencer, Mr Mark Williams, Roger Minister and the Leader of the Opposition today. We Stanley, rh Sir John Williams, Stephen hope that this leads to an outcome that will save as Stephenson, Andrew Williamson, Gavin many of the jobs as possible. Stevenson, John Willott, Jenny The petition states: Stewart, Bob Wilson, Mr Rob Stewart, Iain Wollaston, Dr Sarah The Petition of residents of Humberside, Stewart, Rory Wright, Jeremy Declares that the Petitioners support workers at BAE Systems Streeter, Mr Gary Wright, Simon in Brough in their fight to save Humber jobs. Stride, Mel Yeo, Mr Tim The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Stuart, Mr Graham Young, rh Sir George urges the Government to support the defence industry by investing Stunell, Andrew Zahawi, Nadhim in modern manufacturing and regeneration around the Humber Sturdy, Julian and to preserve skilled jobs and apprenticeships in the Humberside Swales, Ian Tellers for the Noes: area. Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Mark Hunter and And the Petitioners remain, etc. Swinson, Jo Mr Shailesh Vara [P000990] Question accordingly negatived. Hinkley Point Business without Debate 5.54 pm Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): I rise to present the petition DELEGATED LEGISLATION of the Stop Hinkley campaign. Those who live in the Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing area around Hinkley, particularly in Somerset, would Order No. 118(6)), like the Government to look at alternatives to Hinkley That the draft Jobseeker’s Allowance (Jobseeking and Work Point. for Your Benefit) (Amendment and Revocation) Regulations 2012, which were laid before this House on 21 November, be The petition states: approved.—(Stephen Crabb.) The Petition of supporters of the Stop Hinkley campaign, Question agreed to. Declares that the Petitioners strongly oppose the plan by EdF (Electricite de France) to construct a new nuclear power station at Hinkley Point in Somerset and declares that as an alternative, the PETITIONS Petitioners believe that a Government-backed programme of energy saving and clean renewable energy would combat climate Park End Community Centre (Middlesbrough) change and avoid the risks of catastrophic accidents and dangers to health resulting from the storage of highly radioactive waste at Hinkley for 160 years. 5.52 pm The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East urges the Government to commit to an energy policy based on Cleveland) (Lab): The petition states: energy saving and clean renewable energy, in which new nuclear The Petition of residents of Park End, Middlesbrough, power stations play no part. Declares that the Petitioners are concerned about the prospective And the petitioners remain, etc. closure of Park End Community Centre, which recently received [P000991] £102,000 in lottery grant funding for a multi-games court, a skate 893 14 DECEMBER 2011 Pedestrian Access (Railway Stations) 894

Pedestrian Access (Railway Stations) The station is not just a transport hub. It sits at the bottom of one of Sheffield’s seven great valleys. On one Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House side is the city centre and on the other are the communities do now adjourn.—(Mr Vara.) of Park Hill, Norfolk Park and beyond. The railway line runs down the valley, dividing the two, and the station is the natural link between the city centre and 5.57 pm those communities. Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): I am pleased The bridge that runs through the heart of the station to have secured this debate. I admit that the subject is the only pedestrian route that unites the city. As might seem a little obscure to some Members, but the Angela Andrassy says: Minister will know that it is of great concern not only to “The bridge also symbolises for me the joining of our area of people in my constituency but to all of Sheffield. I am the city to the city centre.” delighted to be joined by my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) and my It runs from the main station concourse to the tram right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside stop, then to the communities beyond and to key institutions and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett). This issue has brought such as Sheffield college and All Saints school. For together an extraordinary coalition of local residents residents coming the other way, it provides direct access and local organisations who are united in their concern to workplaces, shops, cinemas, theatres and Hallam to maintain pedestrian access through our station. university. The bridge and station, as Mark Doel says, are I know that similar issues have arisen in other parts of the country. My hon. Friend the Member for Derby “part of the civic landscape”. North (Chris Williamson) has shared with me his concerns That landscape has recently been enhanced by the wonderful from further down the midland main line. My hon. new South Street park, built with public money, which I Friend the Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley), was delighted to open in September. Footpaths come who cannot be here tonight, has shared with me the down the hill through the park and converge on the issues in his city. I know that the Minister of State, station bridge, providing the main route to the city for Department for Work and Pensions, the right hon. the communities that I mentioned. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), has The bridge was redeveloped as a main pedestrian had problems of a similar nature at a station in his route in 2002, as part of the £50 million redevelopment constituency. of the station and the adjacent Sheaf square. That This evening, I will explain the problem facing Sheffield redevelopment created the modern, accessible and award- and make three points. The first is that established winning station that we have today and the major pedestrian routes for non-rail users through railway pedestrian gateway to the city centre. Funding came stations should be respected and protected, not blocked from both the public and private sectors, with the city by ticket barriers. Secondly, I will look at the relationship council, the passenger transport executive, Network between publicly funded stations and station improvements Rail and the European Union all contributing. and the franchise arrangements that have passed the That redevelopment not only transformed the station management of our stations to private rail companies. to give train passengers a fantastic first impression of Thirdly, I will challenge the one-size-fits-all approach to our city, but crucially opened the bridge to more than 1 ticket barriers of the Department for Transport, and million people a year, at a cost of £7.5 million, giving the implications for pedestrian access. I will draw pedestrians a safe and secure route to and from the city extensively—but not too extensively—on the long-running centre. Frank Abel, a pensioner, told me: campaign in my constituency and in the city to maintain access through our railway station. I will illustrate that “I use the bridge several times a week walking into town…At all times of the day and evening there are people going up and railway stations are not just places where people get on down the new steps.” trains, but can be so much more, as in the case of Sheffield. Gavin Bateman said: In advance of tonight’s debate, in an experiment in “I use the footbridge through the station daily and my daughters participatory democracy, I invited comments from use it on a regular basis. It is my contention that there is not an acceptable alternative”. constituents through Facebook, Twitter and e-mail, and I was overwhelmed with responses. I should like to As Viv Ratcliffe, who is wheelchair-dependent, asked thank those who contacted me for their support, and me to point out: although I apologise for being unable to use all their “The bridge was built to integrate all aspects of transportation comments, I will draw heavily on their views tonight. including pedestrians.” Sheffield has an open station without ticket barriers, The station is not just a pedestrian gateway, a transport and it is not simply a place to catch a train. It is hub and a place to catch a train, it is increasingly a connected to our Supertram network via a tram stop at destination in its own right. In 2009 the Sheffield Tap the back of the station, and it is just one minute on foot opened at the station, and it has won awards. It is a pub from the main bus interchange. As my constituent, Roz that has quickly become a firm favourite not only of the Wollen, says, we have a Campaign for Real Ale but of travellers and non-travellers. “joined up transport system of tram, bus and train, all linked.” Its arrival and subsequent success perfectly demonstrate that the station is increasingly a community hub and, in It is a model of an integrated transport hub and the my view, a model station. As Gareth Slater points out, only point in the city where all forms of transport come together, so the free movement of people around that “removing the bridge will damage the passing trade of the shops” hub is crucial. that have been developed in the station. 895 Pedestrian Access (Railway Stations)14 DECEMBER 2011 Pedestrian Access (Railway Stations) 896

[Paul Blomfield] Local opposition has been exacerbated by the use of heavy-handed tactics to close the bridge on occasion. I echo the words of former Virgin Trains chief executive, East Midland Trains has randomly shut the bridge to Chris Green, and the president of the Town and Country pedestrians, as it did one morning in May 2009, and it Planning Association, Sir Peter Hall, who wrote in the introduced human ticket barriers in February 2010. introduction to their report for the Government in 2009 When, in September 2010, it was faced with angry on how to improve our railway stations: residents who wanted to cross the bridge that it had “Stations are deeply entwined with their local community and closed without notice, it called in British Transport effectively act as the gateway to both town and railway. They leave police, who handed out 45 cautions. passengers with their lasting impressions of both.” Underlining all that is the refusal of the Department Sheffield station’s success is, however, entirely predicated for Transport and East Midlands Trains to acknowledge on its being an open station, with pedestrian access that Sheffield station is not just where you catch a right through it. When East Midlands Trains took over train—it is a key part of the lives of the local people. the management of the station in 2007 under a new franchise from the Department for Transport and signalled Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): its intention to install ticket barriers across the bridge to My hon. Friend is making a good case for keeping the tackle fare evasion, there was considerable local anger. bridge barrier free. Is it not the case that people from all Ticket barriers will block pedestrian access through over the city, who work at places such as Sheffield the station and close the bridge to all but train passengers. Hallam could recently expect to get off the tram at the Since 2007, the Department for Transport has put pressure stop called “Sheffield Hallam” to access their place of on EMT to install barriers, but I am pleased to say that, work? so far, it has been unsuccessful, not least because of a tremendous campaign against barriers led by the campaign Paul Blomfield: My hon. Friend makes an important group Residents Against Station Closure—RASC. For point. In stressing the communities that I represent in more than four years, it has thoughtfully and thoroughly Norfolk Park and Park Hill, I do not want to underestimate pursued the issue through lobbying, campaigning and the impact of closing the bridge on the wider city. That regular creative demonstrations. Indeed, this Friday its is a crucial tram stop, which is widely used by people festive protest will involve seven Santas with their coming to work during the day, people studying at reindeer—[HON.MEMBERS: “Are they real?”] I am not Hallam university, and those coming to the cinemas sure whether they are live reindeer, but that is the theme. and theatres in the evening. That bridge is crucial for They will cross the bridge and give out chocolate coins them. to children, as a reminder that public money built the Before the Minister makes the point, I recognise that bridge. there is a problem with revenue loss, although attempts I have worked with RASC for most of the past four to gain accurate information on the scale of the problem years, long before being elected to this place. I pay have met brick walls. The Minister quantified it in a tribute to its members for their energy, leadership and letter to me, at £2.3 million, only today, but we need ability to mobilise extraordinary support across the city more analysis. Fare evasion must be tackled, but barriers and the political spectrum. They do not stand alone. In are not the one size fits all answer that the Department an online poll conducted by Sheffield council in 2009, for Transport seems to believe. 94% of people said that they opposed ticket barriers. The problem of revenue loss lies with local services—main All political parties in Sheffield, along with local schools, line services have cracked it through effective ticket pensioners, neighbourhood and transport groups have checks on trains—but it is not simply deliberate fare signed up to oppose the barriers. Indeed, earlier this evasion. I regularly travel on local services and it is afternoon, the Deputy Prime Minister sent me a note, often a challenge to pay. For example, I can join the apologising for missing this, the second most important train at an unstaffed station where I cannot buy a ticket. debate of the week, but saying that he The train companies could make much better efforts “continues to urge the DfT to come to a practical solution with to collect fares, and on the busy trains, at peak times, the train company and Sheffield City Council which will allow when it can be difficult for ticket collectors, they could pedestrians to continue to be able to use the bridge.” deploy staff on the platform. They could also install Institutions that are key to the city’s economic and ticket machines at unstaffed stations. They could do a social fabric support the campaign to keep the bridge number of things. Barriers are the easy solution for the open, including the chamber of commerce, Hallam Department for Transport and the train companies, university, Sheffield college and Sheffield International which are guilty—if hon. Members will forgive the Venues. They know that breaking up the city’s transport pun—of tunnel vision, because they are ignoring the infrastructure is bad for business, and makes Sheffield a wider interests of the city. The station and its bridge less attractive place in which to work, study, live and were rebuilt with public money, so why are the needs of invest. the public not being put first? Our taxes paid for the Furthermore, the £150 million scheme, which is station improvements, yet the Department for Transport transforming the iconic and grade II* listed Park Hill wants to relegate the needs of the public behind those of flats—the largest listed structure in Europe—creating the train companies. 874 new apartments and breathing new life into this That raises important questions on future franchising part of the city, will be cut off from the city centre if arrangements and what control communities have and access across the bridge is denied. It is madness, and the should have over our stations. The current franchise Park Hill developer, Urban Splash, understandably shares expires in 2015, and it is vital that the new round of my strong opposition to barriers. tendering, which will begin in the next couple of years, 897 Pedestrian Access (Railway Stations)14 DECEMBER 2011 Pedestrian Access (Railway Stations) 898 takes into account local views, so that the DFT and DFT are making decisions from Whitehall about stations franchisees are not locked into an agreement that will around the country without taking into account the damage our city. local situation? Will he undertake to consult local This issue emerged under the previous Government, communities before concluding the next franchise but let me reflect on how they dealt with it. The Transport agreements for the management of local stations? Secretary at the time, Lord Adonis, listened to local The words of my constituents tonight demonstrate people and challenged the policy of his officials, who that this is a disagreement not just between the Minister appear to be the driving force behind the move to and me, but between the people of Sheffield and the barriers. He listened, he came to Sheffield, he looked at micro-mismanagement of the DFT. The Department’s the position, he attended a meeting of RASC and he intransigence in pressing this deeply damaging proposal responded to their concerns by announcing a clear and will have a huge impact on our city. I hope that tonight unequivocal commitment that there would be no barriers will take us one step closer to a resolution of this issue. at Sheffield unless pedestrian access was maintained. In conclusion, let me quote two of my constituents. I want to know why the current Government will not Mark Doel says: honour that commitment and look forward to the Minister’s “This government says that it believes in devolving power to remarks. the local people. Well, the local people have spoken with one voice.” Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): I have some Roger Donnison sums up Sheffield’s case perfectly: experience of this problem in Derby. The station was “All of the recent investment in and around the station has gated, and although the authorities claim that pedestrian been based on open access via the footbridge. Integration of the access has been maintained, it is complicated and difficult railway with the tram, and of Park Hill with the city centre will be for pedestrians to gain access. Some need to obtain lost without it.” certification from the college on the other side of the railway line. That has caused local residents to object, so if my hon. Friend can prevent similar difficulties 6.16 pm arising in Sheffield, I am four-square behind him, because The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport I wish we did not have to contend with those problems (Norman Baker): I am pleased to respond to this debate in Derby. and I congratulate the hon. Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) on securing it and on putting forcefully Paul Blomfield: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the views of his constituents and others in Sheffield. his intervention. I am aware of the situation in Derby. When EMT floated a similar proposal to tackle the I fully recognise that there are local concerns regarding problem in Sheffield, we drew heavily on the Derby the access across the railway at Sheffield and I appreciate experience in dismissing it as an impractical and unworkable the points that the hon. Gentleman made about this solution. long-running and sensitive issue. Let me assure him that I am fully aware of the issues and concerns that surround That is one reason so many people are opposed to the proposed gating at Sheffield station. I have had barriers. Indeed, when in opposition, the Minister wrote representations not just from him but from other MPs to a concerned rail expert on the matter. This is from his in Sheffield, including the Deputy Prime Minister, who letter: has made his views very plain on this matter as well. I “Whilst barriers do work very well in some circumstances...it is want to be helpful and find a constructive way in which by no means proven that revenue protection and passenger safety to resolve this matter, and I shall ask the hon. Gentleman is achieved in others. For these reasons, I am opposed to the proposed new barriers at Sheffield and York railway stations.” for his help in that. Will the Minister confirm that that is still his view and, Let me deal with why we are where we are and answer if not, why has he changed his mind? some of the questions that have been raised. A key factor is the cost to the railway. There is another factor, I look forward to the Minister’s response and his which is access, but the loss of revenue is important. answers to these questions. Is he willing to travel to The hon. Gentleman refers to the letter that I sent to Sheffield and meet RASC to ensure that he properly him. The costs of ticketless travel relating to Sheffield considers the issues I have raised tonight? station is estimated at between 3% and 18%. The sum of Will the Minister provide a full breakdown of the £2.3 million a year was given to me by officials and was revenue loss and explain exactly how it is calculated? based on the minimum figure. If it were 18%, the What impact assessment has the Department conducted amount would be £13.8 million a year. The hon. Gentleman to evaluate the wider consequences for Sheffield, beyond will agree, as will all Members, that we simply cannot the interests of the Department and the rail companies? allow money to continue to haemorrhage from Sheffield Why was there a reversal of the previous Labour in this way and that a solution needs to be found that Government’s commitment that there should be no captures the lost revenue as a matter of urgency. This is barriers at Sheffield unless pedestrian access was maintained, money that should be going to the railway to help and will the Minister tell the House who took that improve services and, at the moment, it is being lost. It decision? Will he state whether it is the Department’s is also unfair that many people are paying for their policy that every railway station should be gated? That tickets while others are able to travel apparently free of seems to be the case from the incremental promotion of charge. That is not fair on the people who buy the gating through franchise agreements, but if that is so, tickets. should that policy not be open to full debate? Normally with ticketless travel of this magnitude, Will the Minister say whether he now believes, as train operating companies consider ticket-gating options. many in his Department do, that ticket barriers are the The magnitude of this issue at Sheffield was such, as the only solution to tackling fare evasion? Is it right that the hon. Gentleman rightly and fairly said, that the previous 899 Pedestrian Access (Railway Stations)14 DECEMBER 2011 Pedestrian Access (Railway Stations) 900

[Norman Baker] Clearly, as my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) pointed out, the problem is Labour Government put an obligation on East Midlands that we have a scarcity of East Midlands Trains staff on Trains, when it won the franchise in 2009, to install the trains to ensure that people have paid for their gates at Sheffield. It should be clear, therefore, that this tickets at stations further down the lines that serve was an obligation on East Midlands Trains and was not Sheffield. something that it wanted to pursue itself. Norman Baker: Let me try to deal with the point Paul Blomfield: There was an obligation to install about staff on trains. It is partly about franchise barriers or, if that proved unviable, to investigate other requirements—and, by the way, I am advised by officials revenue protection measures. Will the Minister confirm that the barrier obligation is ongoing for East Midlands that? Trains, although alternatives would be considered if gating was not installed by a particular date, which I must say is an interesting franchise condition. Norman Baker: Yes. My understanding was that the company was required to provide barriers, but I am Members will appreciate that there is a significant looking to officials to see whether that is in fact the cost to having staff on trains. Train companies employ nuance of it. If there is any further information, I will revenue protection officers on a regular basis, but it is give it to the hon. Gentleman before I finish my speech. not possible—particularly on busy trains—to have any guarantee that the conductor, particularly when the On ticket barriers—I want to talk about other aspects train is busy and when there are frequent stops on the of the matter too, so the hon. Gentleman should not service—will be able to get through the train and check misinterpret what I say in the next few paragraphs—ticket all the tickets. Indeed, the hon. Member for Sheffield gates are an efficient and proven method of significantly Central said in his introduction that he is often unable reducing ticketless travel and increasing rail revenue. to buy a ticket to travel on the train. That increased revenue has the effect of reducing the costs of the railways, as he will appreciate, for both Chris Williamson: In view of his comments about the taxpayers and rail passengers. As he will be aware, the cost of train managers, will the Minister confirm that cost of running the railways has increased by 60% in the plan to introduce more gates is part of a long-term real terms since 1996-97. Sir Roy McNulty’s independent Government plan to de-staff or run down the number study estimates that UK rail costs are about 30% higher of staff working on the railways? Is that behind his per passenger mile than those of our European competitors, plans? so there is a big issue with general efficiency. Sir Roy McNulty’s study also goes on to state that the evidence Norman Baker: I would not infer that at all. As I said suggests that a moment ago, if there are gates, staff are needed in case “the widespread introduction of gating at stations could reduce someone gets stuck in them. If the gates are unstaffed, revenue lost through ticket evasion or the deliberate purchase of they have to be left open. Gates are in fact a guarantee “wrong” tickets…The DfT data regarding rates of ticketless of staff on the station. travel suggest it is about 12% in London compared with about 7% elsewhere.” Angela Smith: The Minister mentions a problem with In addition, gated barriers at stations can bring a staff getting around to check all tickets on busy trains, number of benefits to station users, rail passengers and but that underlines the fact that on the Penistone line, in the industry. Gates at stations are staffed when in use particular, which runs into Sheffield station—it is a and therefore provide benefits to passengers in terms of busy commuter route from Huddersfield and serves my safety and security through staff visibility. They also constituents—we have a lack of capacity. So perhaps make it more difficult for non-ticket holders to access one answer is to have not just more staff on trains, but the railway, which potentially contributes to more enjoyable more trains. travel for fare-paying passengers. Norman Baker: I entirely sympathise, but the hon. The hon. Gentleman asked whether it was policy to Lady makes a wider point, and I hope she notices that, require gating everywhere. I think it is a matter of notwithstanding our difficult economic situation and horses for courses and each railway line and each station inheritance, we now have the biggest investment in is different. It would not be sensible, for example, to railways since Victorian times, a commitment to improve install gating on very lightly used rural stations. That rolling stock on several lines, an electrification programme would be nonsensical in terms of the cost-benefit ratio. that has extended way beyond what was originally The Department and the train companies will estimate anticipated and a tram-train pilot in Sheffield. There is the likely consequence of not having a proper method a great deal of investment in transport, and any fair-minded to ensure ticketless travel is tackled—and I shall come person would look at the Government’s investment to that in a moment—set against the cost of gating. He portfolio and conclude that, since May 2010, transport may be interested to know, for example, that I have and, in particular, railways have done rather well. recently required the installation of gating at Gatwick The Chancellor’s growth statement included several airport, a hole in the Southern network that has caused roads that the hon. Lady may notice, but what was not ticketless travel and been a magnet for those who wish picked up was that £1.4 billion extra is being allocated to access the railway without paying. for rail, as against £1 billion for roads. So we are seeing massive investment in the railways, and that includes— Angela Smith: The point is, however, that as far as [Interruption]—I wish she would not chunter in the Sheffield is concerned, many of those found to be background; I am trying to answer her questions— travelling without tickets boarded the trains at some of investment in rolling stock. There is a commitment to the rural stations to which the Minister has just referred. new rolling stock for the east coast main line and for the 901 Pedestrian Access (Railway Stations)14 DECEMBER 2011 Pedestrian Access (Railway Stations) 902

First Great Western line; new rolling stock is being Norman Baker: With respect, I should not know what introduced to the Thameslink programme; and we are happens on every single train across the country, because continuing with our intention to bring in 2,700 new we are now moving into an era in which we avoid carriages. micro-management of the trains. We are setting the I fully accept that we have a problem on the railways, high-level objectives; we are not seeking to micro-manage in that more people than at any time since 1929 now every train, let alone every passenger on the network. travel by rail—if that is a problem—on a network that is However, as a general principle, it is right that train between a half and two-thirds of the size it was in 1929. companies should try to minimise ticketless travel by I call it a success in some ways, but it is called a problem whatever means they can; indeed, it is in their interests in terms of its consequences. The public’s perception of to do so. As to whether a cost-benefit analysis has been their journey is also much more favourable than was the carried out to see whether such measures are more case even 10 or 15 years ago, and people now regard effective, to be honest, I am not sure that one has been, trains as safe, more punctual and more pleasant to use. although I will check that and write to the hon. Gentleman. That is a problem of success, so the inevitable consequence What I would say, however, is that the problem is a bit is that we have to follow people’s increased use of trains, like when the police stop drivers speeding: when the which has largely been recession-resistant, and ensure police are there, they are effective, both at the time and that there are sufficient orders to pick up extra passengers. for about a week afterwards, but then the average speed One answer is to invest in high-speed rail, and, if the of the motor vehicles on those roads rises again. A Secretary of State concludes when she makes her statement gating solution is a permanent solution; solution involving in due course that she wishes to pursue the Y-shape people, unless they are permanently there, is not a proposal, her decision will significantly benefit the Sheffield permanent solution and is less effective than gating. area, as well as everywhere else in the country. So I However, I will write to the hon. Gentleman about the assure the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge point that he has raised. (Angela Smith) that we are doing our best to ensure that there is real investment in carriages and infrastructure. Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): But the That is quite a long answer to her point, but I hope it Minister has said that gates have to be staffed. In fact, assures her that we take rail extremely seriously. Indeed, my experience of East Midlands Trains—not in Sheffield, I would not be doing my job of lobbying within the but in Nottingham—is that gates are regularly unstaffed, Government if that were not the case, but I am happy to so they are doing nothing to prevent fare evasion. say that it is. Let me return to the subject in hand. The welcome Norman Baker: If a train company operates gates increase in the number of passengers using rail services without regularly staffing them, that will lead to a loss in south Yorkshire—this point follows on from the one of income, and it is responsible for dealing with that. I have just made—has also brought problems that the However, travelling the network extensively as I do, I do Department is managing in conjunction with local not often come across gates that have been left open. stakeholders. For example, additional rail vehicles have been introduced to provide more capacity. Unmanned East Midlands Trains, along with Midland Mainline local stations are cheap to operate and improve access before it, has undertaken manual staffed barriers of to rail services, but that does not make it any easier for ticket inspectors on selective days to ensure that all on-train staff to collect and issue more tickets on board passengers passing through Sheffield station are in busy trains. Sheffield, as I have mentioned, has a particularly possession of a valid ticket—perhaps those were the high level of ticketless travel. instances to which the hon. Member for Sheffield Central referred in his introductory remarks. The increased Paul Blomfield: In my experience and, certainly, that revenue collected at the station on those days, both by of others, the problem is not just with busy trains, the inspectors and through increased sales at the ticket because companies could make more effort to collect office, indicates that between 3% and 18% of travel at revenue from trains on which it is perfectly easy for Sheffield is ticketless—that is where the figure comes collectors to navigate the carriages. On busy trains, from. That means that at least £2.3 million is lost to the which are limited to certain peak times, it would also be railway each year through ticketless travel in the area. I possible to deploy ticket collectors on platforms at the want to deal with that, but I also want to deal with the station. Has there been a proper economic assessment point that the hon. Gentleman raised—quite of that idea, as a revenue-side way of dealing with the understandably—about the views of people in Sheffield problem, in comparison with the capital side? My hon. and those who perhaps do not want to travel by train, Friend the Member for Derby North (Chris Williamson) but do want to use the bridge. made the point that it could be a win-win for us, because it would not only tackle fare evasion, but create I hope that the hon. Gentleman is aware that the more jobs. station bridge in Sheffield to which he referred is not a right of way. It may be an established route in a non-legal Norman Baker: I am not going to stand here this sense, but it is not an official right of way. In fact, he will evening and say that everything possible has been done know that the bridge is locked shut every night after the by East Midlands Trains, or Midland Mainline before last train, presumably to prevent it from becoming a it—or, for that matter, any other train company—to right of way. However, I know that for many people— minimise the amount of ticketless travel on its trains. including students, residents and visitors—it has become Some companies do better than others. It may well be the most convenient thoroughfare for crossing the railway. the case—I just do not know—that there is more scope I also accept the point about access to the tram stop. As for staff on trains to— I am keen to promote light rail and low-carbon forms of Paul Blomfield: You should know if you’re driving transport, that is a point that I take seriously. However, the policy. although the bridge is not a right of way, I understand 903 Pedestrian Access (Railway Stations)14 DECEMBER 2011 Pedestrian Access (Railway Stations) 904

[Norman Baker] bridge, while also capturing lost revenue. I stress that we have not yet reached a conclusion: we are looking at that Sheffield council has promoted it as part of the these matters in the round in order to find the best “gold route” access strategy for its redevelopment of options for a solution. For example, East Midlands the Park Hill area on the east side of the city. Trains has offered to provide “timed passes” to local I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is important residents and others, which would allow them to pass to try to ensure that, through the installation of gates—if through any gates and continue to use the station bridge that is what occurs—the railway does not cut a community to cross the railway. Officials have been investigating the in two, and that the community is provided with a feasibility of gating at platform level and I have to say satisfactory and easy way of gaining access across the that there are serious objections to that as well, particularly railway. We therefore looked at a number of options, in terms of practicality, as some accesses are very narrow including: the refurbishment of the existing public bridge and would not be wide enough for the gates, causing to the south of the station; the refurbishment and congestion. Staff would be required on every single extension of the station goods bridge; dividing the platform, which is hugely expensive—probably more current station bridge to provide separate lanes for than the ticketless travel costs. Although this may appear railway passengers and public access across the station, to be an attractive option, I am afraid that it does not which is a solution that I was particularly keen on; work. All these potential solutions are in addition to the building a new bridge at the north end of the station existing alternative routes that bridge the railway in the platforms; and building a new bridge crossing over the proximity of Sheffield station. We have to deal, however, railway tunnels at the north end of the station. As the with the problem of ticketless travel. hon. Gentleman will be aware, in 2009 the Department I said that I wanted to be constructive—and I for Transport commissioned Network Rail to undertake do—because this is a serious issue for people in Sheffield a feasibility study to look into those options. The report and a serious issue for the railway. I am keen to resolve has previously been released to Sheffield city council the issue constructively and in a way that I hope addresses and the South Yorkshire passenger transport executive. the interests of all involved. I want to make the hon. As he requested on 17 November, I have also sent him a Member for Sheffield Central and other hon. Members copy of the report. an offer tonight. [Interruption.] I am not going to ask The report recommended that the options of extending anyone to put their hands into their pockets; there is no the station goods bridge and of trying to split the need to worry. The Secretary of State and I are happy to existing station bridge be discarded, as they were both have a round table meeting with all Sheffield MPs, impracticable and excessively complicated. The report representatives from the council and perhaps a representative recommended further investigation of the remaining from the campaign group. They can come down here—and options. We have explored those options at some length, I will look at the diary and see whether we can go up and both my right hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede there—to look at the options openly and frankly in and Weybridge (Mr Hammond), the then Transport order to make progress. We have nothing to hide; we are Secretary, and I have visited Sheffield station separately happy to share the information to try to reach a satisfactory to look at them for ourselves. conclusion. The Secretary of State is keen to achieve In answer to the point about Lord Adonis, I must say that as well. We will both be involved. that he was a very competent Transport Secretary—and The two objectives that we provisionally set are as I never hesitate to say that. follows. The first is that we must end, or significantly deal with, ticketless travel on the railway. The second is Paul Blomfield: He listened. that we seek to meet the legitimate aspirations of people Norman Baker: The hon. Gentleman says that Lord in Sheffield to be able to cross the railway without Adonis listened; well, we have listened. He went to restriction. We want to achieve both those objectives. Sheffield and I have gone to Sheffield. As far as the Provided people are signed up to achieving them, we commitment to no barriers is concerned, there are no should be able to make some progress. I hope that hon. barriers there yet, and we are 19 months or thereabouts Members will find that response helpful. into this Government. We could have dealt with the matter on day one, but we did not because of the Paul Blomfield: I welcome the Minister’s offer, with sensitivity of the issue and because we wanted to reach those caveats. We share the desire to tackle ticketless a satisfactory conclusion. I hope that the hon. Gentleman travel and I welcome the Minister’s aspirations to address gets some reassurance from that. the concerns expressed by local residents and local organisations. The sort of meeting he describes, involving Based on the Department’s discussions with Sheffield the local campaign group as he mentioned, would be a council over the last two years, a possible alternative to positive step forward. I thank him for that. the station bridge has been identified in the form of the building of a new public bridge over the north end of Norman Baker: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s the station platforms. I understand that, as part of its response. We will try to make progress. As the last long-term city regeneration plans, Sheffield city council Government recognised and as we now recognise, this is already envisages replacing the existing bridge to the not an easy issue, bur we are determined to make south of the station and building a new bridge over the progress, and I believe that with good will on all sides railway tunnels to the north of the station. The construction we can do so. I will write to him and his colleagues in of a bridge to the north might address the requirements Sheffield shortly. of both the railway and local stakeholders. Question put and agreed to. In addition, we are looking at a number of ways in which continued access across the railway for local 6.39 pm users could be maintained by using the existing station House adjourned. 273WH 14 DECEMBER 2011 Zoos (Regional Economic 274WH Development) imaginative development of a zoo. I am especially taken Westminster Hall by the unexploited potential of our great zoological institutions to act as shop windows championing cutting- edge research carried out by the UK’s leading research Wednesday 14 December 2011 universities. I am aware that moves are being made to partner zoos and aquarium sites with specific cutting-edge [MR PETER BONE in the Chair] research programmes at neighbouring universities, and I am struck by the fact that the science and technology areas involved go far beyond the easily anticipated Zoos (Regional Economic Development) disciplines of zoology and biology. Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting The National Zoological Society of Wales, for be now adjourned.—(Bill Wiggin.) instance, is developing ideas in partnership with the universities of Glyndwr and Bangor. The National Marine 9.30 am Aquarium is linked closely to Plymouth university in terms of marine science and regional economic growth Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): Good morning, acceleration. Edinburgh zoo, which has been in the Mr Bone. As chairman of the all-party parliamentary news recently due to the arrival of the pandas, already group on zoos and aquariums, I am delighted to have has a successful alliance with Scottish universities, the opportunity to discuss the economic growth potential particularly St Andrews in respect of primatology.Twycross of the magnificent zoological institutions and live wildlife zoo in Leicestershire is exploring potential with Nottingham sites in all regions throughout the United Kingdom and in a variety of areas, including veterinary science and Ireland. That potential extends to aquariums and wildlife animal health. and safari parks, and is evolving rapidly, opening up to all forms of imaginative partnership, a fact that is not I foresee a compelling future in which zoos and always self-evident to Government. similar wildlife sites are assisted in taking the excellence of our universities’ research and training and placing it I therefore thank the Minister of State, Department firmly in the public arena, in the path both of those who for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the initially pay for it and those who ultimately benefit from Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk), for the shared affluence produced. The zoo sector’s traditional attending this important debate on the future beneficial departmental relationship has been with the Department role of the widespread community of zoological for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, and has organisations and the important part that they play in involved regulation on health and safety and animal society, especially for our economy and future growth. I welfare, as well as the zoo community’s role in conservation. will make one specific request to the Department for That is a highly valued dialogue, and I am not suggesting Business, Innovation and Skills at the culmination of that it be downgraded in any way. Equally, the work of my speech. My fundamental contention is that, especially the zoo community maps on to that of the Department given the current focus on economic growth and rebalancing for Culture, Media and Sport, in terms of tourism and our economy, UK zoos, in their relations with Government, cultural and heritage identities. have been categorised for too long exclusively within the brackets of tourism, leisure and the environment. I Tony Cunningham (Workington) (Lab): Last summer, argue that such sites should extend beyond those brackets having spent all year based in London for most of the and into a more holistic economic development arena. week, I decided to have a family holiday in London, in A recent outline economic impact study on the sector order to bring my family to London zoo. Does that not carried out for the British and Irish Association of demonstrate the economic importance of organisations Zoos and Aquariums—the national association that such as zoos? looks after the interests of zoos throughout the British Isles—using the most conservative formula available, Andrew Rosindell: I thank the hon. Gentleman for showed an annual contribution of £645 million to our that intervention, which emphasises the point that I am tax base and the stimulation of 11,000 lasting jobs. making. Zoos are the heart of everything in our country. I will deal with the study in more detail shortly, but I People love to go to zoos and see the animals. However, strongly suggest that with proper encouragement, it is not just about tourism. These days, it is about a aquariums, zoos and similar wildlife sites can become wide range of things. It is important to ensure that the even more dynamic engines to help our economy in public understand that zoos are about more than just many ways. They can boost local employment, drive animals; they are about conservation and tourism. This long-term tourism growth, enhance a positive image of debate focuses particularly on how zoos help to strengthen regional culture and leisure that encourages inward our economy in certain regions of the country. investment, champion environmental technology, assist To return to the point that I was making, zoos involve in the internationalisation of our economy and the more than one Department: the Department for Culture, mindset of our population and promote and protect Media and Sport, in terms of tourism and cultural and native wildlife and our overall UK tourism landscape, heritage identities; the Department for Education, in as well as providing the more exotic biodiversity with respect of education and the family dynamic; the which zoos are traditionally associated. They can also Department for Communities and Local Government, act as community hubs and focuses, supporting in respect of zoos’ powerful role in promoting community volunteering, community activities, hobbies and special values and as a hub for volunteering; the Department of interest groups of all kinds. Energy and Climate Change, in terms of their championship A glance at any region’s blueprint for economic growth of environmentally sustainable buildings and the ultimate and environmental responsibility will reveal few desired aim of a zero-carbon society; and the Department for outputs that cannot be delivered by the sufficiently International Development, as massively attended public 275WH Zoos (Regional Economic 14 DECEMBER 2011 Zoos (Regional Economic 276WH Development) Development) [Andrew Rosindell] long lasting—not vulnerable to international outsourcing, as so many other sectors are today. Jobs in tourism are, sites connecting the UK electorate and taxpayers with after all, by definition rooted to a specific place. the realities of populations in developing countries who Thirdly, I refer to the confidence of, and major investment live alongside and interact with the animal kingdom. from, the recent regional development agencies and the In championing this debate, it is my firm and overriding devolved Administrations in specific zoo sites and projects ambition that a practical dialogue should ensue between lying in their respective regions. One might mention officials in the Department for Business, Innovation zoos in Edinburgh, Bristol, Chester, Wales, Twycross and Skills and the British and Irish Association of Zoos and Paignton, the leading aquariums in Hull and Plymouth, and Aquariums, or BIAZA, the zoo sector’s official and other sites in this context. It shows that in all such representative body. The public goods presented by quarters, authorities have already accepted the economic safari parks, zoos, aquariums and all wildlife institutions development logic of zoo and aquarium sites. are almost too numerous, but in these difficult times, surely a wealth-creating agenda in the context of Fourthly, such organisations support, improve and environmental responsibility should be our priority. communicate a certain fundamental quality of life, a clear and positive sense of place and a celebration of locality. Their development helps to retain and attract Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Does the hon. Gentleman knowledgeable, skilled graduates and high-earning know what is being done to market our zoos and professionals. Employers and inward investment will wildlife parks? I speak particularly of those that are not follow the people. Many leading zoos and wildlife sites so high-profile, such as Penclacwydd in my constituency, are non-profit charities, and almost all are to some where the emphasis is on pond dipping. It has the most degree mission, rather than profit led, adopting a social fantastic array of pond life and a wild bird collection. enterprise ethos and reinvesting all or much of their Such attractions do not, perhaps, have the same appeal annual surplus in wildlife conservation, education, science, as a large safari park. Does he feel that enough is being the community and other public goods. Thus the prosperity done to promote and market the whole range of wildlife generated by zoo activity largely tends to remain of parks? local benefit, rather than be shipped off by multinational interests. Andrew Rosindell: I agree that not enough is being done. That is why I called this debate: to talk not about In addition to the traditional identity of such sites, the welfare of animals, which is normally the topic of they can also act as cultural organisations. The National debate when zoos are mentioned, but about the promotion Marine Aquarium in Plymouth is a key partner in of zoos as part of our economic regeneration. I have cultural and social events such as the “blue mile” and a never had the privilege of visiting the zoo in the hon. recently initiated international marine festival. The cultural Lady’s constituency. Maybe I will visit it at a future role of wildlife venues also expresses itself in architecture date. I look forward to doing so. and local community heritage based in native species and the much-loved landscapes of Britain. Capitalising In addition to strategic partnership with research on large numbers of visitors concentrated at a single universities, there is much further evidence that zoos venue, such sites can function as tourism hubs and and zoo projects are net generators of prosperity, with dynamic promoters of the overall landscape, wildlife the potential to do a lot more. First, let me point briefly and heritage of the UK that extends to both domestic outside the zoo world to Cornwall’s Eden project. Based and foreign visitors. They are socially embracing institutions on the appeal of the living world and predicated on an that in all sorts of ways provide a positive impact on a environmental ethos, the site attracts large numbers of large audience. paying visitors. As a model, it is very close to our great zoological sites. Surely, no one could doubt that the Finally, such sites are financially stable organisations. Eden project has made a huge contribution to Cornwall’s They are not holding out a begging bowl for revenue, overall economy and society in an organic place-making but offering attractive platforms for partnership and sense that embraces and extends far beyond tourism investment. Indeed, the zoo industry has seen strong, and leisure. Indeed, it is striking that of the millennium long-term growth for more than 20 years. The fundamental capital projects, the Eden project and BIAZA member, zoo proposition has withstood the challenge of changing The Deep—a submarium—have been some of the greatest fashion and competitive technology for 150 years. It is successes, demonstrating their self-sustainability and embedded in our British way of life; it is part of our viability. Clearly, large numbers of the UK public are British tradition and it is here to stay. Nobody claims prepared to pay to visit sites where they can imaginatively that this relatively small sector of UK enterprise can re-engage with nature and the living world. In doing so, perform at the massive economic level of, let us say, they also guarantee their very financial continuity in a aerospace, biotech, manufacturing or other industrial virtuous economic circle. powerhouses of the economy. Such an assertion is not plausible. Secondly, BIAZA’s initial economic impact analysis, which scopes the overall sector, reveals a current economic contribution to the UK of £645 million a year. That was Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I calculated at the most modest level possible and is congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. thrown into relief by the figure of $8.4 billion arrived at Before he elaborates on the niche that zoos and aquariums by the American Association of Zoos and Aquariums. fit into, does he agree that the sector offers our children The study’s results also unveil the far greater potential and young people—primary or post-primary—an for such sites if they are given sufficient encouragement opportunity to expand their horizons that the other and focus. It also underlines that the 11,000 jobs generated, sectors he outlined cannot offer in terms of scale and both directly and indirectly, are permanent or at least access throughout the year? 277WH Zoos (Regional Economic 14 DECEMBER 2011 Zoos (Regional Economic 278WH Development) Development) Andrew Rosindell: I agree entirely. Zoos provide a like to discuss the twin aspects of developing economic wonderful opportunity for young people to learn about activity in respect of zoos: what they are doing at home wildlife and the animal kingdom, conservation and the and, in the case of Twycross, what they are doing environment. They are accessible and good value, given abroad. what a family gets from the cost of visiting a zoo or a In my area, we feel strongly about my zoo. I claim site. Twycross as a zoo of my own because I have represented the area for many years and know the zoo’s founders Tony Cunningham: We have spent a lot of time on and staff, whom I have tried to support for a long time. zoos, but does the hon. Gentleman agree that people Twycross receives 400,000 visitors a year and has nearly have exactly the same experience in aquariums? An 1,000 animals—500 mammals, 220 birds and 135 reptiles. aquarium in Maryport in my constituency specialises in It has the widest range of animals in captivity in the fish from the Solway firth and is a huge educational area, but they are not in cages. We also have the best attraction. laid out area, which consists of 40 acres where elephants, Andrew Rosindell: The hon. Gentleman makes a valid giraffes, lions and leopards can roam around outside. point. I have mentioned aquariums; BIAZA, of course, If we are to develop economic activity in the zoo covers both zoos and aquariums. It promotes all wildlife industry, we must ensure that there are open spaces and sites, whether safari parks, zoos or aquariums, or any that zoos meet the modern requirements that people other institution that promotes the conservation of expect. They do not want to see all animals in cages. I animals and education about the animal kingdom. congratulate Molly Badham, Nathalie Evans and Suzanne Niche activity can, in its own framework and at its Boardman and her team on managing to take things own level, be encouraged to raise radically its economic forward, so that we have a new paradigm in zoos. We and fiscal contribution to the UK. Surely, there is a are talking about economic activity at home and what is subtler point: the zoo site may not be the largest employer happening abroad. If someone wants to have a successful or the chief economic driver within a given constituency business as a zoo, they need to be very forward thinking. or region, but it is often one of the most visible and I submit that that is exactly what Twycross has done. I certainly the best loved. The celebration and the shall cite three or four projects in which it has engaged development of a city’s aquarium, such as in Plymouth that have increased visitor numbers and set a very fine or Hull, or of a safari park—Knowsley for Merseyside, example. Woburn for Bedfordshire or Blair Drummond for Stirling The first is the Borneo longhouse project, which is and central Scotland—is subtly, but profoundly, linked part of four projects where the public are immersed in to a generally enhanced sense of confidence, enterprise animal activity. Rather than just looking through the and aspiration, national and international attention, window, the public are part of the experience. That first and resurgence for the surrounding socio-economic fabric experience was opened by Liz Hurley in 2005. I was as a whole. To quote a particular example, only two very lucky to be there and she did a fantastic job of years ago, the citizens of Hampshire voted Marwell drawing publicity to the zoo. The longhouse has not Wildlife only simulated rain and steam, but simulated thunder “that thing of which we are most proud”. and lightening. It is a very exciting place to be, and of It was the foremost aspect of living in Hampshire that course zoos must be exciting if we are to attract younger residents chose to celebrate. people and prevent zoos withering on the vine, like our In closing, I look to colleagues on both sides of the public houses; that is a very sad thing. We must have House to offer their perspectives and perhaps to refer to exciting venues for people to visit. I can assure hon. individual zoos or wildlife institutions in their constituencies. Members that coming back through the bat cave is I request that the Minister and his officials now enter exciting because one can see the bats, although some into dialogue with representatives of BIAZA to work people might not like bats that much. towards a mutually agreed policy statement on the The second very exciting development at Twycross wealth-creating identity and unused potential of zoos that I would like to mention is the amazing snow across the UK and to discuss how Government can leopard outdoor park, which is a massive outside cage encourage and nurture their further potential for the that is about two cricket pitches long. Visitors in the greater good of our economy. extensive visitors’ centre, where people can buy a range of animal souvenirs, can see snow leopards out on the Several hon. Members rose— rocks. That has been a fantastic draw for people and the experience has been combined with what I was Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair): Order. It might be going to call corporate entertainment, but it is done in a useful for Members to know that I intend to start the slightly different way. People can book the venue to wind-up speeches at 10.40 am. There is a great deal of have lunch, dinner and receptions while watching the interest in Mr Rosindell’s debate, so could Members snow leopards and the birds in the wetland wader bird keep their comments reasonably short? I call David enclosure that is next door. That 40 acres is a dynamic, Tredinnick. exciting, forward-looking area, where animals can roam and people can enjoy them and go around on a little 9.49 am train if they want to. David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): I am most grateful The project has brought great success to Twycross. In to you, Mr Bone, for allowing me to speak first after my fairness, I should mention that it has received top hon. Friend the Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell). British and Irish Association of Zoos and Aquariums The debate is well supported this morning, perhaps awards this year for best educational project, significant because of his efforts. He has already mentioned twice advances in husbandry and welfare, best new zoo the famous Twycross zoo in my constituency. I would enclosure and best research project for entamoeba 279WH Zoos (Regional Economic 14 DECEMBER 2011 Zoos (Regional Economic 280WH Development) Development) [David Tredinnick] to get ourselves out of these difficult times. I feel that the sector could be used to the betterment of my histolytica—I will send my notes to Hansard. That constituency. award was for maintaining animal welfare and dealing Others may disagree, but I represent what I consider with that tricky bug. to be the most beautiful constituency in the United There is greater economic activity at home at Twycross, Kingdom: Strangford. I say that for a number of reasons— but what is it doing abroad? Twycross takes the lead in not only because I live there, but because every morning conservation abroad. It does conservation in situ at I wake up and look out over Strangford lough, which is home in terms of trying to protect endangered species, recognised as an area of outstanding natural beauty and it currently has 67 species of animal in the European and as a Ramsar site as well. People all over the world endangered species programmes or European studbooks. are aware of the area and, for that reason, I am pleased That is significant because, in the past, zoos have been to be here to talk about it. under attack by people who do not like animals in Ards borough council—wearing a hat that I had for cages. As I have said, Twycross is a very open area. some 26 years; I resigned from it only a year and a half There is open access and it is forward looking. Also, if ago—was part of the area’s economic development. we do not have organisations such as Twycross zoo, we The council and its development officer—along with will not have some of those species. the Northern Ireland Assembly and Down district council, We are all worried about endangered species, and I which also has a part of Strangford lough is within its absolutely applaud what Twycross has done to protect area—recognised the good news that there was an specific endangered species abroad such as the gibbon opportunity for economic development, which would that lives on the Vietnamese-Chinese border that was create jobs and financial stability. discovered by Fauna and Flora International scientists The hon. Member for Workington (Tony Cunningham) some years ago. Only 150 such gibbons remain in the is not in his place, but Exploris in Portaferry is part of wild, but Twycross has an outreach programme to the group that he spoke about earlier. It is an aquarium support them. It has a gibbon conservation centre and a in the south of my constituency that attracts approximately community-based range of patrols. That is an example 200,000 visitors a year. My hon. Friend the Member for of what Tywcross has done abroad. East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) mentioned educational Twycross is doing something else abroad. In areas advantages and the hon. Member for Romford responded where it is helping animals, it is encouraging and assisting to his question. Exploris focuses on education and is an local people to develop skills that will prevent deforestation, attraction for schools, which keep coming back, and the for example, by explaining the benefits of fuel-efficient format changes every couple of years to keep it new and stoves to reduce the amount of fuel wood collected fresh. The seals in Strangford lough have been the key from the forest. It is also helping local people to grow to promoting the aquarium—they are the stars of Exploris. feed plantations to reduce the free grazing of livestock, About three years ago there was an outbreak of seal flu. which denudes the landscape and threatens the lives of There was a concern that a lot of the seals would die, the animals. In addition to the ecological research to but the seal population is back and attracts many which I have referred, it is also planting new tress to people to the area. Exploris can grow: private enterprise help supply sustainable firewood for the future. is keen to be involved and Government money will be spent. Arlene Foster, the Minister with responsibility I shall not speak for any longer because I do not want for tourism policy in the Northern Ireland Assembly, is to be selfish and take up time. As I said, I am grateful to working with councils to bring further economic you, Mr Bone, for allowing me to speak first after my development and growth. hon. Friend the Member for Romford. I will sum up by saying this. Some two-thirds of a billion pounds is Our second jewel in the crown is Castle Espie. At annually put into our tax base by zoos across the UK least one hon. Member in the Chamber is aware of and, at the last count, there were 11,000 lasting jobs in Castle Espie. The gentleman who was originally responsible the sector, including those created by the 400,000 visitors for the Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust harvested, from a at Twycross in Leicestershire. Some 28 million people a shooting point of view, wildfowl in Strangford lough year—one third of our entire population—had some and further afield—something that I have done, too. connection with zoos last year. Surely, that is enough Although Castle Espie provides an opportunity to shoot for my hon. Friend the Minister to take this issue very geese and ducks, its wildlife centre also has a clear seriously indeed. responsibility as a conservation area. People can visit the area and enjoy seeing ducks, geese and waders. Strangford lough is one of the areas in Europe and the 9.57 am United Kingdom that is visited by Brent geese. They Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the come in large numbers, which continue to grow. Perhaps hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) on bringing the Government will have to consider whether Brent the matter to the House. I spoke to him yesterday about geese stay on the protected list or become a quarry species, it and I am keen to contribute in support. The key issue but that is for the future. More than 100,000 people visit is the regional economic development aspect that is Castle Espie every year. There has been substantial included in the title of the debate. The zoo sector has expenditure to attract new visitors, and to make the created jobs. I should like to focus on two locations in convention centre more attractive to people from outside my constituency, because they have experienced economic the local area. For a nice exciting day, it is clearly a place growth as a result of aquariums and wildfowl centres. to visit. The wording of the debate title is clearly the key to the There is an economic benefit from tourism, and matter, because economic development comes off the there is more to come. It is a growth industry on which back of the jobs that are created. We have an opportunity we need to focus, and that is why I am pleased to speak 281WH Zoos (Regional Economic 14 DECEMBER 2011 Zoos (Regional Economic 282WH Development) Development) in the debate. The two local councils have created potential impact on tourism, and the economic impact 400 jobs off the back of tourism in our area. I believe at local and national level. I await its findings with great that tourism can and will provide more. Castle Espie interest. has been upgraded, and Exploris has seen substantial Today’s zoos are much more than entertainment; financial commitment. It is wonderful to have those two they are centres of conservation, education and research. attractions, along with the Mount Stewart estate in the Yes, zoos continue to draw huge numbers of tourists, centre of the Ards peninsula. Mount Stewart is not a and so add directly to a region’s economy through zoo, an aquarium or a wildlife centre, but another tourist revenues, supply-chain jobs and roles in the attraction. I encourage hon. Members, if they have not service industries. However, their ability to deliver wider booked their holiday for next year, to do so now: and more dramatic results has been somewhat curtailed Strangford lough and the Strangford constituency would by a failure to recognise them as businesses, centres of be the place to come to, with Mount Stewart in the innovation and hubs linking cutting-edge scientific research, centre, Exploris down at the southern toe, Castle Espie education, technology and commercialism. I hope that on the other side and much, much more. They will not today’s debate marks a step change in that respect. With be disappointed. Jobs have come off the back of tourism, our focus on growth and rebalancing the economy, it is with potential for economic growth. We can do more. essential to capitalise on all areas to drive future development and sustainability. Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): As my hon. Edinburgh zoo, in my constituency, is home to more Friend is issuing invitations to visit Northern Ireland, than 1,000 rare and endangered animals. It is also one may I urge people, and urge him to urge his constituents, of Europe’s leading research centres for conservation to come up the road to Belfast? Not only are we and education, working collectively with many other investing £100 million in the new Titanic signature zoos and conservation agencies in co-ordinated programmes. project for 2012—a massive investment in one of the The Royal Zoological Society of Scotland has also world’s greatest tourist attractions—but Belfast zoo is worked for recognition by the university of Edinburgh one of the UK’s leading zoos. It will, for many years, as an accredited research associate, and has signed a continue to attract tens of thousands of visitors from memorandum of understanding with seven major Scottish across Northern Ireland. He is right to focus on the universities to ensure co-operation in research. As my massive tourist boost of having a zoo in the region that hon. Friend the Member for Romford said, the UK’s we represent. zoological institutions are uniquely positioned to act as shop windows, championing the cutting-edge research Jim Shannon: I thank my right hon. Friend for his being undertaken in our universities. He mentioned intervention and fully support what he is talking about. excellent examples in Wales, Plymouth and Edinburgh. In Northern Ireland, we are very fortunate to live in much more pleasant times. We have a democratic process In Edinburgh, pairing with St Andrews is producing that is moving forward, and we have partnership excellent output in primatology. The work is not just in government. It may not be ideal in every sense, but it is biology, but is pushing boundaries and discoveries in certainly the way forward. We have an opportunity for chemistry, physics, engineering, maths, design and aesthetics. growth, part of which is tourism, as he says. Interestingly, the Budongo trail, an excellent facility hosting the chimps, also has corporate rooms available I am very pleased to be here today to speak in this for conferences, overlooking the chimp enclosure. It is debate. I encourage hon. Members to consider their perhaps arguable who is more bemused by what they holiday destination for next year. I am sure that my see: the chimps or the conference participants. Such right hon. Friend, my hon. Friend the Member for East research work should not be shut away in our universities Londonderry and I will be able to supply tea and and research laboratories, but shared and celebrated biscuits. We are pleased to speak to this matter, and we with the public and visitors from overseas. It seems thank the hon. Member for Romford for securing the clear that, in that way, our zoos and similar institutions debate. can and should act as a hub, translating primary research and scientific excellence into something of commercial and educational value. In Edinburgh, that education 10.6 am extends not only to school visits but to the excellent Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): I welcome summer school run for 15 and 16-year-olds from throughout this debate and the opportunity to discuss the role that Scotland. Another example of local engagement is seen zoos play in our regional economies. I thank my hon. in this year’s 175th birthday celebrations for Bristol zoo, Friend the Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) where sculptures of gorillas by local artists were placed for his work in securing the debate. In my maiden on a mass public art trail for 10 weeks this summer. speech last year, I laid claim to represent more penguins As my hon. Friend said, zoos and aquariums than any other hon. Member. I am proud to able to add contribute £645 million each year to the economy. A to that list, and I must, obviously, mention Scotland’s recent American report suggests that zoos have been new arrivals. While I am not the only hon. Member here doing better since 2008, as people increasingly look for today to represent exotic species, I am very proud to be affordable entertainment. With appropriate support and the only hon. Member with two giant pandas as encouragement, however, such sites can become even constituents: Tian Tian and Yang Guang, or Sweetie more dynamic engines for regional growth and and Sunshine. They arrived last week and I understand development, boosting local jobs, driving long-term that they are settling well into their new home. I hope to tourism growth, championing environmental technology be able to visit them in the coming weeks. I am pleased and enhancing regional leisure opportunities, thereby that Scottish Enterprise has wasted no time in encouraging inward investment. The sector itself recognises commissioning a report to help to understand the pandas’ that it has more to offer, if only its unique position were 283WH Zoos (Regional Economic 14 DECEMBER 2011 Zoos (Regional Economic 284WH Development) Development) [Mike Crockart] include the “Sealion Splash”, where people who get too close are liable to get quite wet, but it is good fun, and recognised by others, Government in particular. To the “Peckish Penguins”. So I can tell the hon. Member quote Dr Miranda Stevenson, director of the British for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) that Bedfordshire, and Irish Association of Zoos and Aquariums: as well as Edinburgh, has penguins. In Bedfordshire we “Zoos and aquariums have a great deal of potential which is also have not only Whipsnade but, close by, Woburn, not being exploited by the government. They are not only a with its wonderful safari parks. Bedfordshire is certainly significant tourist attraction, but are of great conservational, doing its bit for zoos and for tourism in our area. educational and economic value in terms of local economic development and wealth generation.” The Minister will be interested to know that in spite of our difficult times, I am told by David Field, the She added that a recently produced BIAZA report was excellent director of Whipsnade, that visits to the zoo “the first step towards establishing the value of zoos to the wider are on the increase and that the number of visitors has economic and social good.” been the highest in the past 37 years of the zoo being The mention of social good is interesting and I want to open. That is excellent news because zoos, as many touch on that briefly. Members have said this morning, are not only wonderful In no other sector are visitors so equally spread institutions, where we learn about conservation and across ethnic group, age, socio-economic background protecting our wonderful threatened animals around and level of education. The tradition of a family day the world, but thriving businesses. In the summer, out at the zoo blithely transcends social and economic Whipsnade can employ up to 300 people directly, and barriers, and includes nearly every child at a formative there are many other jobs associated with such a major point in their education. The BIAZA report showed tourist attraction. that in 2010, 25 million people, more than a third of the As far as Whipsnade specifically is concerned, it UK population, visited one of its zoos or aquariums could do even better and contribute more to our local over the year; more than 1.2 million of them on an and national economies if there were improved public educational visit. That is not unique to the UK. A transport. Unlike some other zoos, which are in the report on Australian zoos found that more Australians middle of towns, Whipsnade is quite isolated; it is in the visited zoos each year than any other form of cultural beautiful Bedfordshire countryside, high up in the Chiltern entertainment, apart from watching films. Yet the chance hills outside Dunstable. If we had better bus links, to use zoos, safari parks and the like as a place to deliver perhaps even a direct bus from Luton station, we could key messages on education and opportunity is often get more visitors, contributing even more to the local overlooked. The UK is not alone in that respect. The economy. Forty thousand school children went round same Australian report concludes that Whipsnade last year—a significant part of their education. “the contributions that governments make to the zoos sector is very low compared to the way in which society values zoos.” Nia Griffith: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that I hope that today’s debate will mark the beginning of there is a gap between when visitors come as children a new era for the UK’s zoos, recognising them as and when they return to bring their own children or institutions that can help us to grow economies and grandchildren? How does he suggest that we might deal address skills gaps. As such, I hope that the Department with that gap in the middle—the teenage years, the early for Business, Innovation and Skills will open practical 20s and so on—when we do not seem to be drawing in and frank discussions with BIAZA. the people we would like to be getting in? 10.13 am Andrew Selous: One way would be an innovative Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): I membership scheme, with repeat visits at reduced prices, shall be as brief as possible, given that many other so that people go regularly to their local zoo. The hon. colleagues want to speak in this important and popular Lady is absolutely right; we do not want zoos to be debate. places where people go once every couple of years, but When people ask me where my constituency is, I places they visit regularly, without those huge gaps. often say that I am the Member for Whipsnade zoo, Pricing schemes that are a little easier on the pocket because it is easily the best known institution in my could be one way of dealing with what she rightly constituency. Although I represent three towns and suggests. 14 villages including many wonderful historic houses, Some of the representatives of zoos who are attending thriving businesses, wonderful churches and so on, the the debate have put it to me that it is not as easy for zoos best known part of my constituency is Whipsnade zoo, to apply for lottery grants or heritage funds as it is for which has around 0.5 million visitors a year. In common other organisations such as museums. Perhaps the Minister with other Members, I cannot resist giving a little plug will kindly agree to look at that. We realise that money while I am on my feet, even though it is not the main is tight, but the thrust of the debate, excellently started focus of our debate. by my hon. Friend the Member for Romford (Andrew Whipsnade is the United Kingdom’s largest zoo, with Rosindell), is that zoos are looking for dialogue with the 600 acres and 2,500 animals—I must say that to my Government and the Minister’s Department. They are hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth (David Tredinnick). having a positive effect on inward investment, creating People can walk or drive around it, or take the safari more jobs and helping to get the economic growth that bus or steam engine. A range of attractions include we need. The Minister is committed to leaving no stone cheetah rock, the lions of the Serengeti—including unturned to promote economic growth in this country, reference to the Selous game reserve, the largest in the so I am sure that he will want to see the zoo and world—and the rhinos of Nepal, or someone can be in aquarium sector playing the fullest possible part in the with the limas or in the chimpnasium. Daily shows important job that he is undertaking for us. 285WH Zoos (Regional Economic 14 DECEMBER 2011 Zoos (Regional Economic 286WH Development) Development) 10.19 am Without further ado, I thank you, Mr Bone, for Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) allowing me to speak, and I wish everyone the best of (Con): I too congratulate my hon. Friend the Member luck and a very happy Christmas. for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) on securing the debate. I have always been interested in the subject, mainly 10.23 am because I remember as a child watching “Animal Magic” Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): I thank my with Johnny Morris, who did those wonderful voices. I hon. Friend the Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) was also brought up on “The Lion and Albert”; Members for giving me the opportunity to speak on behalf of the might remember that on a family visit to the zoo Albert 7,000 animals from 400 species that live in my constituency was eaten by the lion, because at Blackpool the waves at Chester zoo. It is Britain’s most popular zoo, and were “fiddlin’ and small” and it was not at all a nice generates 1.4 million visits a year. It is regularly rated place to have ended up. one of the top 15 zoos in the world. I am delighted to be able to contribute to the debate Since its establishment in 1934, Chester zoo and the because, as the Member of Parliament for Plymouth, North of England Zoological Society has always been a Sutton and Devonport, I host the national aquarium, charity and a members’ organisation, and has always which is the largest in the country. It plays a major part had a social enterprise ethos. Because of that, Chester in the regional economy, as well as contributing to zoo has for more than 75 years been a big society the national economy. Last year, it received around success story. Today, it generates some £13.5 million in 264,000 visitors, of whom 30,000 were schoolchildren. visitor revenue, and employs some 300 core staff year It employs between 72 and 75 people, some of whom round, and 160 seasonal staff during the summer. It is a work part-time, who make a significant contribution to high-quality employer that brings good, long-lasting the local economy.It had a turnover of around £2.5 million, jobs to our local economy. and received a grant of £500,000 from the regional development agency for capital activity. Like many zoos—we heard about Twycross—Chester is a leader in conservation, both at home and abroad. I was a candidate in Plymouth for a very long time—more In the UK, it is responsible for breeding many than 10 years—and during the 2001 general election, native species and reintroducing them back into the when the countryside was closed due to foot and mouth environment, including sand lizards, dormice and harvest disease, the aquarium in Plymouth became a major mice. It is also a centre of international excellence for attraction because people could not go out to the breeding programmes with other zoos to provide an countryside. I have been told that if it is raining in the insurance policy so that many endangered species have morning, the local community knows that it will be a large enough population to ensure genetic stability. inundated with people visiting the aquarium because We are looking forward to the opening within the next they will not go to the beaches or into the countryside. couple of weeks of a £250,000 giant otter breeding The aquarium plays a significant role as a major centre, which will include underwater viewing areas tourist attraction but, more importantly, it works closely with tunnels allowing people to pop up among the giant with Plymouth university, which is one of the principal otters. It will include a breeding programme for giant marine science engineering universities in the country. otters, which are an endangered species from south It is helpful that it is part of a cluster of activity, which America. is why Plymouth is one of the principal global leaders in maritime research. The aquarium moulds its exhibits Chester zoo is involved in more than 150 field projects and education programmes, and drives conservation in 50 countries. It directly runs 10 major field programmes projects very well and in a big way. It is run as a throughout the world, involving elephants, black rhinos, business, not as an organisation that receives Government jaguars, the realm of the red ape, and a Nigerian handouts, and it ensures that it uses natural resources project. Through conservation and research grants from and encourages its suppliers and customers to act ethically. the North of England Zoological Society, it funds more It is part of an industry that attracts paying graduates than 60 field projects around the world word, including from all round the world, so it is an international projects on cheetahs and komodo dragons. organisation. Like many zoos throughout the world, much of the Next year, we will commemorate the death of Captain Chester zoo’s international work is based in the far east, Scott of the Antarctic. Many people will know that if south Asia and south America, which are some of the he were still alive today he would be my constituent. I fastest growing economies in the world. We have brands regularly come across people who tell me that their and zoos that are doing good work in those countries, grandparents used to steal apples from his garden—they and we should use their good name and their facilities could not do that now, as it has been built on. Plymouth to ensure that we sell Britain and British companies to will receive an enormous amount of attention because those fast-growing countries to enable and support our of Captain Scott’s death, and I hope that the aquarium economic growth. We have heard about research and will recognise that. educational facilities offered by zoos, and Chester zoo Another place that will ensure that Captain Scott’s does all that. death is commemorated is the Natural History museum, I turn to what Chester zoo wants to do in future. It which will run a major exhibition from January to has huge ambitions. For the past two years, it has been October. Next year will see an increase in the number of drawing up a £225 million natural vision project, which people wanting to go to the aquarium in Plymouth hopes to transform the zoo over 12 years into one of the because there will be enormous publicity. In the last few world’s largest and greatest animal and visitor experiences. weeks, we have watched David Attenborough’s “Frozen The idea is to develop a series of themed zones, and to Plant”, and that too will be a major boost for the expand the size of the zoo by one third to make it one of aquarium. the largest in Europe. As part of that proposal, it is 287WH Zoos (Regional Economic 14 DECEMBER 2011 Zoos (Regional Economic 288WH Development) Development) [Stephen Mosley] job market in and around progressive zoos, even in small pockets of west Wales such as those I am lucky planning to safeguard some 500 jobs, and to create enough to represent. 660 new jobs in the zoo and the local economy. The My two simple examples include Folly Farm, tucked total cost will be £225 million, with the first phase away in the village of Begelly in west Wales. I remember costing some £90 million. it as a farm by the road in 1988 where someone could Planning approval was granted in November last call in and watch the Williams family milking their year, but there are difficulties because the zoo was cows. A few years later, we had 400,000 visitors going promised £40 million from the Northwest Development through that establishment. It is renowned throughout Agency, and that money is no longer available. It is now Wales and the rest of the UK, and it is known further looking for alternative sources, and trying to rearrange afield as a centre of excellence as a progressive zoo. It is its plans to ensure that it can deliver as much as possible now Wales’s largest paid-for tourist attraction. It has through its own resources. It is being successful in that. 60 employees—160 when it is at full speed in the summer Over the next couple of years, it is hoping to use its own months—and it is not too far down the road from the resources to open an islands exhibit, which will focus on other classic example, which is the Manor House wildlife Madagascar, Mauritius, Sumatra and other south-east park run by Anna Ryder Richardson and her family. Asian islands. It will feature an Indonesian show house, I used the Folly Farm example to highlight economic boat rides, and underwater viewing of animals. It will benefits; I will use Manor House to highlight educational house Sumatran orang-utans, tigers, komodo dragons, benefits. One or two colleagues know of my interest in fruit bats and crocodiles. Part of the proposal is to build learning outside the classroom. My point, which I hope a 150-bed themed hotel within one of the themed zones. the Minister will take on board, is that there is increasing The zoo’s idea in developing the natural vision project evidence that learning outside the classroom brings is to ensure that visitors will not have just a one-day profound economic benefits further down the line. These experience, but stay the night in Chester, go to restaurants, establishments take kids of varying abilities from all and spend money in the local economy. We have noted sorts of backgrounds and enable them to learn things in that the zoo attracts a huge number of visitors, but a different set-up from the traditional classroom scenario. many of them are day visitors. They catch a train or The effects of this on the children and their teachers are drive to Chester, visit the zoo and then go home again. fantastic. Some children are not particularly brilliant at We want to try to ensure that people come and stay the classroom activity, but find that when they are in the night. If they spend several days in Chester, they can company of animals or experts and other visitors in the visit not only the zoo but the other attractions that zoo, it brings something out in them that a traditional Chester has to offer. They might also visit Liverpool or education has not been able to discover. It improves north Wales in the wider sub-region. Chester zoo sees their knowledge of food sourcing and nature, and their itself as an engine for growth locally. With its large, physical fitness and self-confidence in many different high-profile projects planned for the future, it can deliver ways, and it makes them more rounded individuals. It real economic benefits. means that they are more likely to be economically The North of England Zoological Society at Chester productive when they grow up rather than a drain on zoo has huge ambitions, which is down to the work of the nation. We must not underestimate the value that the zoo’s director general, Mark Pilgrim, and Barbara zoos offer. I hope that the Minister will see that the Smith, the managing director. If the Minister is interested benefits amount to more than what is on the tin when in seeing the good work that zoos do in the local we read about the zoo in our local paper or on a economy and the good work that is planned for the website. The contribution that zoos can make through future, Chester and the zoo will be happy to welcome the education system, which has an economic benefit, him. must not be understated. I will mention the three things that we would like. We 10.30 am want recognition, which I am sure is forthcoming, of Simon Hart (Carmarthen Westand South Pembrokeshire) the sustainable economic activity, both primary and (Con): I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Romford secondary, that the establishments provide, especially in (Andrew Rosindell) for giving us an opportunity to talk more isolated rural areas. We want recognition of the about places and things that we are passionate about: value of learning outside the classroom, not as an economic activity in our areas, tourism, and, in my alternative to a traditional education or as an alternative particular case, the subject of learning outside the classroom, entertainment to which children can be subjected, but which has been mentioned by other speakers. as something that brings real long-term economic value I will mention two examples of progressive zoos as locally and nationally. We also want it recognised that, opposed to zoos in the more traditional sense in Carmarthen for some strange reason, zoos do not seem to be attributed West and South Pembrokeshire. We have heard about the same value as museums or sports and science centres the conservation and education benefits, so I will not when it comes to funding from either national or local repeat those points. My two examples are perfect government. Their contribution and potential are obvious illustrations of those. However, we have not touched on at every level, so it is strange that, for some reason, zoos the areas of job creation and job sustainability. In the get a second-class deal when it comes to potential two examples that I will refer to, there are jobs in funding. marketing, finance, IT, animal husbandry, catering and The debate has been very worth while. I suspect we retail, and jobs in the wider community in the secondary will hear more. I hope that we do, because history has industries that rely on our progressive zoos. It is not just shown that zoos are an active and positive element of about tending animals and teaching kids about the economic growth, which we refer to in so many other wider world. There is a vibrant, important and sustainable areas. 289WH Zoos (Regional Economic 14 DECEMBER 2011 Zoos (Regional Economic 290WH Development) Development) 10.35 am offer. This will be the biggest conference centre in Worcestershire and will add to the incredible array of Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): I too congratulate offerings that Worcestershire can make. The economic my hon. Friend the Member for Romford (Andrew impact of the WMSP is incredibly important. I visit it Rosindell) not only on securing the debate, but on his frequently with my young family. It is a truly wonderful very hard work on the all-party group. experience. To my constituency, it is an important local Like many hon. Members, I am keen to contribute economic driver. It is an opportunity for school leavers because I have in my constituency not just a zoo and an to get work experience and a centre of excellence for aquarium but an entire safari park. I am delighted to research. see the director of wildlife, who has come to see this In conclusion, I am reminded of a conversation that I debate, in the visitors gallery. We have been hearing had with a constituent. He used to live in Karen in the about zoos making a local impact, but I can confidently suburbs of Nairobi. He told me that, despite living in say that a whole safari park does a huge amount more. Kenya for 15 years, it was only when he moved to Having an institution and tourist attraction like the Kidderminster that he could have a sundowner gin and West Midland safari park is important, because it adds tonic in his garden and listen to the lions roaring in the to a comprehensive mix of local tourist attractions. distance. Alongside the safari park is the Severn Valley railway, one of the biggest heritage railways in Europe and also an important tourist draw. Between them, they complement 10.39 am a tourist day out that comprises a visit to the Wyre Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab): It is a Forest and to towns such as Stourport-on-Severn and delight to serve under your chairmanship Mr Bone, and Bewdley with their amazing riverside characters. I warmly congratulate the hon. Member for Romford The tourist offering is significant to the local economy. (Andrew Rosindell), who has added to his well-justified As we know, one of the fastest ways of drawing in reputation as a champion of animal welfare in the economic activity is through the tourism industry. It is House by presenting a cogent and compelling case for estimated that these local attractions, which form part the economic role of zoos and aquariums. His case has of the West Midlands key attractions group, bring in been echoed by the wide and extraordinarily positive many millions of pounds of economic benefit locally range of contributions that have come not only from and some 750,000 visitors to Wyre Forest every year. my colleagues in the Opposition, but from across the The West Midland safari park is more than just a Chamber, and included a cameo appearance by my tourist attraction. As a seasonal employer, it provides right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham). 250 extra jobs for school leavers every year. It seems He reminded me of his previous involvement with the there are few people in Wyre Forest who have not Department for Culture, Media and Sport, not least worked at the safari park at some point to gain early job with Knowsley zoo. We heard about an array of places: experience. Indeed, the current leader of Wyre Forest the east midlands, Cumbria, Wales, Northern Ireland, district council was a ride operator in the amusement Whipsnade, Plymouth, Chester, and West Midlands park. safari park—I beg the forgiveness of hon. Members if I An organisation like the WMSP has a huge amount have left any out. more to offer. The safari park makes a massive contribution Together with the obvious promotions and the pride to animal research in a number of ways, from allowing that hon. Members have shown for zoos and aquariums researchers access to study animal behaviour and collecting in their constituencies has been an underlying economic physiological measurements, to supplying them with theme. Again, I congratulate the hon. Member for biological samples and animal records. The park also Romford because he put his finger on many of the collaborates in projects initiated by endangered species issues concerning the blueprint for economic growth. breeding programmes, and with other zoological parks, Zoos can be used for outreach into other disciplines and national and international conservation bodies and can forge links with universities or research and development university staff. In a measure to help educational projects, bodies. Perhaps the Minister will pass that message to the park spends six months of the year hosting students his hon. Friend the Minister for Further Education, from local universities who collect data for MSc and Skills and Lifelong Learning, because research in STEM BSc dissertations on focal topics chosen by the WMSP. subjects—science, technology, engineering and maths— The park also encourages applications from professional involves not only higher education but further education researchers and postgraduate students who are involved and will be a key area in the future. in projects that are in line with their research missions. The hon. Member for Romford mentioned all the The safari park hosts many rare and endangered Departments that are involved with zoos, and I warm to animals. However, it is the economic commitment that that theme. Before becoming a Front-Bench spokesman, the safari park makes to the local economy that I am I spent 13 years working with Members from all parties most in awe of. When the main house of the estate, to promote the seaside and costal towns, and the Spring Grove House, burnt down a few years ago, the Government need to work across silos to encourage and managers of the park received an insurance payout. support such places. We have the same issue with zoos, They took that money and tripled it to create an incredibly and I warmly support and endorse the hon. Gentleman’s impressive local venue that in itself draws much economic comments about the practical dialogue that is needed activity. The managers also created the single biggest between officials from the Department for Business, seated venue in Worcestershire with a tented function Innovation and Skills and zoo organisations. I am sure facility that can seat more than 400 people. that the Minister will respond positively on that point. Finally, but most impressively, there are plans to The hon. Gentleman described the Eden project as create a 250-bed conference venue that takes advantage one of the most successful of its kind, and he put his of the “Out of Africa” theme that only a safari park can finger on the fact that zoos often provide a point of 291WH Zoos (Regional Economic 14 DECEMBER 2011 Zoos (Regional Economic 292WH Development) Development) [Mr Gordon Marsden] “There is a real push in the city… We are seen as not keeping pace with the competition…from big cities such as Manchester entry to much broader economic activity, not only for and Leeds. We need to be putting in our own investment.” tourism but in terms of educational and environmental That is a good example of how second-tier towns and activity. Hon. Members may smile initially at that point, cities are demanding the ability to utilise initiatives such but it is a central role for BIS and other Departments, as zoos. especially in the context of grants and their close A spokesman from Paignton zoo stated that it had involvement with the Department for Communities and been able Local Government. “to access grants through the South West Regional Development All hon. Members in the debate have their own Agency and from Europe. Crocodile Swamp was part-financed personal anecdotes and background. I am a native by the European Regional Development Fund.” Mancunian, and my fondest memories of the late-lamented If the Government do not get a move on over the Belle Vue zoo are not so much about the animals—although European regional development fund, they might find I am sure that they made an impression—as about the themselves in a crocodile swamp of their own—that is a walk-through concrete whale that was a central feature discussion for the Minister and I to hold on another of the zoo. It stimulated me at a precocious age to set up occasion. a bring-and-buy stall outside my parents’ house in aid We need new local mechanisms to take forward initiatives of the World Wildlife Fund. As a reward for my efforts, such as zoos. That is why the recent Centre for Cities I received an enamel panda badge, which goes to show report argued that local enterprise partnerships were at that then, just as now, pandas were an iconic symbol. a crucial stage and that the Government need to act fast It is clear that zoos play a crucial role in the local to make further resources available. A start has been economy. According to statistics from Visit England, in made with the recent announcement on cities the other 2010, zoos made up a quarter of the top 20 fee-charging week. I have always thought of the Minister of State in visitor attractions in the UK, with well over 6 million the Department for Communities and Local Government, visitors. As hon. Members have noted, that was recognised the right hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), by the regional development agencies, some of which not as “disgusted” but as endlessly positive and energetic. played a key role in boosting tourism in the regions and If he were an animal, fictional or otherwise, he would promoting zoos as part of an overall tourism programme. be Tigger. He bounced up and down and talked about Sadly, however, the Government’s hasty abolition of the importance of cities, but in this context, second-tier RDAs led to some funding not going through, as with towns and cities, the seaside and rural and suburban Chester zoo, and perhaps more subtly, it removed some areas adjacent to our large regional cities are also of the expertise and internal, informal architecture that important. That is why my hon. Friend the Member for brought together further education, higher education Streatham (Mr Umunna) recently called on the Government and entrepreneurs to seek investment for new projects. to hold a full impact assessment into the replacement of If zoos and aquariums cannot find other local mechanisms RDA funding and those groups that might have been to replace that investment, they will miss out. James left out, such as zoos and aquariums. It is welcome that Ramsbotham of the North East chamber of commerce Visit England has been allocated £20 million under the recently said that One North East had done a particularly second round of the regional growth fund, and in his good job of promoting the north-east as a tourist official discussions I urge the Minister to highlight the destination, and as I know from my experiences in role that zoos can play. Blackpool, tourism initiatives are a key spur for economic Where will we be in 10 or 15 years’ time? People will growth. not be buying masses of plasma TVs for Aunt Agatha’s 80th birthday; they will be buying her a trip to the zoo Other hon. Members have mentioned their local zoos, or another experience. We are in a world where we will so I will mention Blackpool zoo. It has a proud lineage be buying experiences, and zoos are very well placed for and used to be owned by the council, although since economic activity in that area, so I ask the Minister to 2007 it has been operated by Parques Reunidos, one of go out and be a friend to the warthog, the wallaby, the the largest operators in Europe. It, too, has a weird and ring-tailed lemur and possibly even the slothful panda, wonderful collection of attractions such as the giraffe although given the extent of its consumption, I am sure heights, wallaby walkabout and the dinosaur safari—the that it would not fit with the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s dinosaurs are not living, of course, but the safari exists. lean-and-mean economy today. Does the Minister realise It also has Maisie, who in 2010 became the first western that—to adapt the traditional Hollywood film adage— lowlands gorilla—an endangered species—to be born “There’s gold in them thar zoos.”? in the zoo. Such zoos work as a point of entry to other attractions in the town such as Stanley park, an iconic park from the 1920s and 1930s that has undergone 10.50 am major renovation in recent years and is adjacent to the zoo. Visitors to Blackpool are brought from the seaside The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and into the country and to Fylde, and that shows how and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk): I add my congratulations points of entry can be used. to my hon. Friend the Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) not only on securing the debate, but on The Library has risen to the occasion, as always, and setting out the broad issues, which a number of hon. provided a brief for the debate. It mentions Chester zoo, Members have also highlighted. I am not sure about the which is in the constituency of the hon. Member for animal analogy and I shall spare colleagues by not City of Chester (Stephen Mosley), and cites an interesting taking it further. Let me simply say that I have never quotation from Charlie Seward, the director of regeneration been good with reptiles, which is why, thankfully, I do at Cheshire West and Chester council: not have to spend too much time with the tabloids. 293WH Zoos (Regional Economic 14 DECEMBER 2011 Zoos (Regional Economic 294WH Development) Development) Let me refer to some of the excellent remarks made We heard a contribution from my hon. Friend the by hon. Members. My hon. Friend rightly highlighted Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire the heritage of the institutions. Incidentally, given the (Simon Hart). The point about outside learning is time left to me, I will use the phrase “zoos and aquariums” right. It is important to understand that this is not as shorthand; hon. Members whose constituencies contain necessarily just about an academic subject; it is about safari parks and other attractions should not feel left the experience gained through the learning process. out. My hon. Friend raised economic and tourism Clearly, my hon. Friend has two excellent examples in issues, which I will come to, but he also highlighted his constituency. something that other hon. Members mentioned, which Last but by no means least, my hon. Friend the is that the first practical contact children have with the Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) raised the natural world is often through the local zoo, safari park excellent work at the West Midland safari park. It does or aquarium. It is right to highlight that social role. All not relate just to the conservation of endangered species; of us can respond to that point. there are wider research projects. He ended with the My hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth (David marvellous image of someone enjoying a stiff gin while Tredinnick) spoke of the excellent work of Twycross the sun sets over Kidderminster—a very good way to zoo. I am familiar with Twycross; I have met the senior focus on the issue. managers there. My hon. Friend highlighted, as several In the five minutes left for the debate, I want to focus other hon. Members did, the international role that on the economic and social benefits and make a couple zoos and aquariums can play. I am talking not just of points about tourism, and refer to the engagement about what we do in this country, but about reaching with Government and industry and to the wider issues back to some of the countries from which the relevant that zoos, aquariums and other institutions face. The species originated, so that we think about a sustainable report by the British and Irish Association of Zoos and future more holistically. That is an eminently sensible Aquariums, which examines the economic issues, makes and good point. significant statements that the debate has touched on. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) For example, when we consider indirect and induced referred to what are clearly the delights of his constituency effects, we see that these institutions provide some and how those local natural attractions have created £645 million in terms of value in our economy. They are some 400 jobs as part of the broader tourism industry. significant visitor attractions; the spending by tourists If we take that together with a stay-over not in Belfast on-site of some £246 million is enhanced by additional zoo but certainly nearby, I think we have our Easter trip spending of some £198 million in the surrounding area. sorted out, for which I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. That goes back to points made by hon. Members on The hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) both sides of the Chamber about how an attraction can appears to have added pandas to his penguin be a focal point for wider economic opportunity. constituents—it looks as though his next constituency The question is how we can ensure that, as part of surgery will be much more interesting. He made the tourism, these institutions are able to benefit. In March, important point that zoos are businesses. That is part of the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, this debate. Whether they are profit-making or charitable Media and Sport, my hon. Friend the Member for and therefore social enterprises, I certainly recognise Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose), who is responsible that they are enterprises—businesses. That relates to the for tourism and heritage, set out a clear policy for point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Romford. tourism. It is about ensuring that the visitor economy, The whole of Whitehall—my Department included—needs which is worth some £52 billion to the economy as a to recognise that and engage in a cross-Whitehall dialogue. whole, is enhanced. It is about recognising the role that My hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire can be played not just in urban areas but, as my hon. (Andrew Selous), who is, as he rightly pointed out, the Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South hon. Member for Whipsnade zoo, among other things, Pembrokeshire pointed out, in rural communities—a made the point by saying that he identified with that very important addition. zoo—that safari park. That goes to the heart of the way This is an area where there are real opportunities for in which people regard their area. It is something that growth, but we want to ensure that the sector is both they take pride in. He made this very good point: the more productive and more competitive. Our domestic fact that visitor numbers are rising shows that the tourism industry offers good growth potential because public clearly value these institutions in their communities. at the moment this country sees fewer staycations—in My hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton plain English, that means people wanting to holiday at and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) referred to the excellent home rather than go abroad. A lower proportion of our national aquarium. I shall come to that. He referred in population holiday at home than go abroad. I was particular to links between universities and zoos. That looking at the number of zoos and aquariums in the list point was well made. of top paid-for attractions in England, and interestingly My hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester it appears that three of the top 10 English paid-for (Stephen Mosley) raised a question with regard to the attractions are indeed zoos and aquariums. A couple plans for Chester zoo. I understand the challenges and have been mentioned today. The three attractions are the ambitions, which are super to hear about. They Chester zoo of course, London zoo and Flamingo involve not just the current otter breeding centre, but Land theme park and zoo. Together, they secured 3.5 million also the 10 overseas centres. My remarks in a moment visitors last year. That is more than Stonehenge and—dare will focus on the regional growth fund, of which there I say it?—more than the Houses of Parliament, so are two further rounds. The management may want to clearly we have something to learn in this institution have a look at that to enhance the planned private from the zoo industry. I will sweep gently over whether sector investment. the inhabitants here are more or less interesting than 295WH Zoos (Regional Economic 14 DECEMBER 2011 296WH Development) [Mr Mark Prisk] Israel those in zoos and aquariums. I will not go into that area, because I know that you want to ensure that I do 11 am not stray too far, Mr Bone. Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): It is a pleasure to It is important that we consider the wider issues. That serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone. I am pleased means that there is a case for considering, as requested to be able to raise the issue of Government policy by my hon. Friend the Member for Romford, how the towards Israel in a quick, half-hour debate. Before I do, industry and Government can work more closely together, however, let me draw Members’ attention to my entry in beyond just tourism. I stress the opportunities that exist the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, where I in relation to the national funding streams. Yes, the declare a trip I made to Israel about a year ago. RDAs have gone, but we have an opportunity with the This is an important issue. The relationship between £2.4 billion RGF programme, which has two further the UK and Israel has always been strong, and the UK rounds to come. Some of the plans for the institutions has always been a constructive partner. At times, it has that we have heard about today could well be proposals been willing to inform the Israeli Government of the for those funds. In that regard, I encourage in particular need to move faster towards an accommodation with my hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester: it is the Palestinians. At the same time, there has always something that can work. been a relationship of respect and trust between the The role of local enterprise partnerships will be two Governments, and that has been clear not only in fundamental. Also relevant are the growing places fund politics, but, very impressively, in business. The business and the enterprise zones. We are discussing areas where relationship between the UK and Israel is extremely the existing institutions and future ones can play a role. heartening, and it was most encouraging, on my visit to Ministerial colleagues in both the Department for Israel in February, to see how the Israeli business community Communities and Local Government and my Department saw the UK as a good partner in terms of development. will want to encourage that. It is interesting that despite the fact that the Israeli Several hon. Members mentioned skills and science. state has been extremely effective at developing the These institutions are pivotal in that context. Hebrew language and culture—we in Wales have tried to follow it in reviving our own language and culture—the Andrew Rosindell rose— English language remains an important binding issue for the business community. Traditionally, Israel has Mr Prisk: I am in the last minute of my speech, so I perhaps looked towards the United States, but under hope that my hon. Friend will bear with me; I must our current ambassador, there is a developing business respond to this point. Science and skills are very important. link between Israel and the UK. We therefore have a Biology, zoology and veterinary science are crucial. As strong relationship with Israel, and we have been able to we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, be a critical friend. That is a good position. Sutton and Devonport, the national marine aquarium is a classic example of what can be achieved. These are Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): I am fine institutions. They deserve to be looked at and grateful to my hon. Friend for bringing forward this engaged with by the Government as a whole, across issue. Do some of those who, quite understandably, Whitehall—I include my Department. The roles that want to criticise particular Israeli Government policies they can play in relation to tourism, science, skills and, not sometimes need reminding that there is no criticism of course, conservation mean that they continue to they make that will not be heard in Israel’s vibrant deserve the Government’s full support. democracy? It is much easier to work with a country that has as vibrant a democracy as Israel, even if we Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair): I thank Members for have criticisms of its policies. their attendance and their self-restraint, which meant that nine Back-Bench Members have been able to speak Guto Bebb: I am grateful for that intervention from in the debate. my right hon. Friend, who is a Liberal. When my colleagues and I were in Israel, one of the things we found quite amusing was that we, as MPs, occasionally complained about the fact that we had a coalition between two parties in Westminster. Obviously, Israeli politicians said they would be absolutely delighted if they could have a coalition between just two parties. Israel’s proportional representation system means that it has a vibrant political system, in which criticism of Government actions happens regularly.

Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): I was delighted to hear the hon. Gentleman refer, I believe, to a poem by Saunders Lewis, in which he urges Wales to follow the example of Israel, particularly in terms of reviving its language—it is a poem of great optimism. However, does he not agree that there is a world of difference between the Israel of Yitzhak Rabin and the Israel of Netanyahu? 297WH Israel14 DECEMBER 2011 Israel 298WH

Guto Bebb: I am grateful for that intervention, and I 1994, it made a similar offer to Jordan, which has also will come to that issue in due course, because I want to been very successful. In 2005, it made what many consider talk about the attitudes of the world press and of other a huge sacrifice by removing itself from Gaza. History Governments towards the current Israeli Prime Minister. has shown that the Palestinian side did not accept that I think his actions do not justify the way he is often in the spirit the Israeli Government intended. attacked and portrayed badly in the media. Let me turn, however, to our Government’s policy Guto Bebb: I am grateful for that intervention; indeed, towards Israel. In a conflict situation, there is no doubt I suspect I can now throw away two pages of my speech. that the use of language is extremely important. In that The Camp David accords of 2000 were a major offer for respect, I am delighted to see the hon. Member for peace by Israel. I think I am right in saying that if the Newport West (Paul Flynn) here. When we discuss such offer had been accepted, something like 97% of the land issues, language is important. I can vouch for the fact in the west bank and Gaza would have been available to that the hon. Gentleman and I have disagreed on numerous create a viable Palestinian state. Indeed, in that regard, occasions, but I know for a fact that there is not a racist the highlight of my visit to Israel and the west bank was bone in his body. However, a few weeks ago, because of my visit to Ramallah, which was not the third-world a possibly inappropriate use of language, he found enclave I had been told to expect, but a vibrant city that himself in difficulties. The use of language is therefore was growing and clearly prospering. It was perhaps not important. growing to the extent it should have been, but it was That is why I requested this debate. The Foreign growing by 10% per annum, and I am sure the Chancellor Secretary recently made a statement on issues in the would be delighted to swap. middle east and north Africa, in which he gave his usual The point I raised about the Camp David accords is robust explanation of the Government’s position. What extremely important, because the offer of 97% of the that statement perhaps revealed, however, was an imbalance land in return for peace stalled on Israel’s demand that in the use of language. There was almost an implication the Palestinian Authority included in the agreement a that the lack of movement on the peace process was the statement that the agreement would end the conflict. fault of the Israeli Government, and the Israeli Government When the British Government say that Israel has to alone. When we have such debates, it is important that make a generous offer, we in the UK must be very aware there is a degree of balance, but I think there was a lack of its demand for an end to the conflict. After 30 years of balance in the statement, given the expectation that of waste and loss of life in Northern Ireland, we managed any move would have to come from the Israeli Government. to bring all the parties, including the British Government, It is worth quoting the Foreign Secretary’s words: to the negotiating table, and a key element was the “For Israel, the only means of averting unilateral applications demand that the republican movement in the north of to the UN is a return to negotiations. A demonstration of Ireland accepted that there was an end to the war. In political will and leadership is needed from both sides to break terms of creating trust, it is imperative that both parties the current impasse”— feel that the negotiation will finish the conflict, and that I welcome that comment, but the Foreign Secretary the option of going back to the conflict is not allowed. continues: The Camp David accords failed on Israel’s claim that “This includes the Israeli Government being prepared to make the Palestinian Authority would have to agree that there a more decisive offer than any they have been willing to make in was an end to conflict, and it is extremely disappointing the past.”—[Official Report, 9 November 2011; Vol. 290, c. 535.] that that did not happen. In addition, of course, the That indicates a degree of criticism of the Israeli Israeli Government took the decision to move out of Government by the UK Government, and we have to Gaza in 2005. Time and again we are told that the crisis ask whether that criticism is fair and balanced. and problems in the middle east— It is clear that peace will be achieved only through negotiation. We know that to be the case, and every Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The hon. Gentleman Member in this debating Chamber would agree that mentioned the Northern Ireland situation. Clearly, there peace will be achieved only if both parties come to the had to be an understanding from all parties on both table and discuss how to create the two-state solution sides of the community that violence does not work. we all want and that we all know is the only way Perhaps there was an understanding, after 30 years of forward for peace in the region. However, it is important campaign and conflict; perhaps people realised that the to state that if we are to have negotiations, both parties gun, the bullet and the bomb do not work. That is a key need to engage, and the problem with the statement was aspect of what is happening. Is there a realisation that it indicated that the process had stalled because of among the Palestinians—perhaps there is among the the lack of an offer from the Israeli Government. To an Israelis—that that should happen? extent, that ignores history. Perhaps we should ignore history more in the middle east, but the truth is that we Guto Bebb: I sincerely hope so. Certainly there is a need to understand that the Israeli state has made difference between the Palestinian Authority in the west numerous efforts over the past 10 or 12 years to make a bank and the attitudes of some organisations who were clear and generous offer. As yet, there has not been a in control in Gaza. That issue is vital. response from the Palestinians. Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): The Palestinians Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): My hon. Friend have a just cause and the Palestinian Authority have is making an eloquent speech. He is quite right to say responsible and respectable leadership, but is there not that Israel has made many such offers. In 1979, for a large problem in the shape of Hamas, which my hon. example, it made its offer to Egypt, and the agreement Friend has mentioned? Would he welcome hearing from between the two countries has been very successful. In our right hon. Friend the Minister whether there has 299WH Israel14 DECEMBER 2011 Israel 300WH

[Mr James Clappison] be something that some hon. Members in this Chamber would appreciate, but, in truth, the 1979 agreement with been any movement at all from Hamas on recognising Egypt was the result of the efforts of Prime Minister the state of Israel, giving up terrorism and abiding by its Begin, and the 1994 agreement with Jordan that has international commitments? been mentioned came from the leadership of the right. It is important to bear in mind that if the right in Israeli Guto Bebb: That is, indeed, one of the questions I was politics is moving towards peace, that offers the opportunity going to put, but now that my hon. Friend has made the for a unified approach. point I am sure that the Minister will respond to it. In the same way, comments about the Prime Minister The 2005 decision to pull out of Gaza was met not of Israel ignore his words. Time and again he has made with a break in hostilities but, rather, with continued it clear that he is ready to negotiate anywhere, with attacks on Israel from Gaza. The situation in Gaza is a anyone. I am not here to defend him; I am trying to crisis and is unacceptable, but it is also unacceptable offer some balance. In a speech in 2009, he said clearly: that a state such as Israel faces attacks from land from “I appeal to the leaders of the Arab countries and say: Let us which it has withdrawn. It is important to point out, talk about peace. Let us make peace. I am willing to meet at any when the issue of settlement is discussed, that the Israeli time, at any place”. leadership expended significant political capital in pulling He followed those comments in 2011: out of Gaza. The decision to uproot settlers from Gaza “Let’s meet here today in the United Nations. We have to stop was right, but we should not underestimate the political negotiating about the negotiations. Let’s just get on with it. Let’s capital that the Israeli Government lost in making it. negotiate peace.” Those are not the words, in my view, of a Prime Minister Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): I who is unwilling to talk about peace. am grateful to my hon. Friend for obtaining this important debate. It is important that we have balanced debate on Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I congratulate the peace talks. Does he agree that a strong Prime my hon. Friend on securing the debate, because, like Minister goes into negotiations defending the national him, I was extremely concerned about the words of the interest with clear red lines and that that is the secret to Foreign Secretary, where the emphasis seemed to be good negotiation? Asking one side to give up all its very much on Israel. I want to add another quotation bargaining chips, such as settlements, in advance of from Mr Netanyahu: negotiations, is clearly nonsense. “Israel will not be the last state to welcome a Palestinian state into the United Nations. We will be the first.” Guto Bebb: I tend to agree. I thought for a second, when I heard about a strong leader and red lines, that My hon. Friend is right to emphasise the point that we were back in the Democratic Unionist party debate Netanyahu is expending considerable political capital on Europe; so, yes, I agree entirely. on the issue. Far from being the ogre and pariah that he is made out to be, he has committed himself time and In addition to what happened in 2005, another offer again to peace and negotiations. was made in 2008, which would have resulted in 93% of the land mass of the west bank and Gaza being available for a viable Palestinian state, including a land link Guto Bebb: Again, the record, but, unfortunately, not between them, which is critical. Again, that was rejected necessarily the media in this country, would support by the Palestinian Authority. I am not here to demonise that view. the Palestinian Authority, but they must be partners for More important than words are actions, and in 2009-10 peace, and I have given three examples from the past there was a freeze on all settlement activity. For a decade when a partner for peace was not there. right-wing politician in Israel that is a brave move. The 10-month freeze was met with nine months of no activity Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): I congratulate by the Palestinians—another missed opportunity. my hon. Friend on securing the debate. Does he agree that one of the key things for lasting peace is business, Paul Flynn: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? working together? If we could get the two states to work together in business, there is nothing that the Israelis Guto Bebb: I will take a final intervention. would like more. Hamas and terrorists filled a vacuum in Gaza. However, I visited Ramallah and the new Paul Flynn: We all condemn the incessant use of Palestinian city of Rawabi, and there is a fantastic rockets by Hezbollah and Hamas, but is there not opportunity for two peoples to come together—the another danger, given what is happening in Tehran, next generation of Palestinians and Israelis, working with the explosions, assassination of scientists and cyber- together in peace and harmony through business and attacks, that we are in a perilous situation that could international development. lead to war? I believe that the hand of other countries can be seen in what is happening in Tehran, and that is Guto Bebb: I agree entirely. That emerging city is likely to provoke it into a shooting war. indeed a testament to the development of the west bank. I agree that the prosperity and viability of the Guto Bebb: I am sure that all Members of the House west bank is crucial to any move towards peace. agree that the situation in Iran is dangerous and are Prime Minister Netanyahu is subject to regular criticism, concerned about that regime having access to nuclear which ignores three important points. The first is that weapons. Again, negotiation would be a much better peace in the middle east has always come from the option than direct action, and I am sure all hon. Members initiatives of the right in Israeli politics. That might not would agree on that too. 301WH Israel14 DECEMBER 2011 Israel 302WH

The final point that I wanted to make about the debate indicates the importance that the House attaches Prime Minister of Israel is that in September 2011 he to both the bilateral relationship between the United fully accepted the Quartet initiative, which was the basis Kingdom and Israel and to the wider issues concerning on which negotiations could restart. Again the response the middle east peace process, to which my hon. Friend of the Palestinian Authority has been to obstruct the the Member for Aberconwy alluded in his opening process and provide the Quartet with evidence without speech. consultation with Israel. The whole point of the Quartet I want to make it clear at the start that the Government initiative was to ensure that proposals would go forward see Israel as a key ally and friend of the UK. That does in tandem with Israel and the Palestinians. That did not not mean that we agree on everything—we do not happen. Time and again Israel has made generous hesitate to express our disagreements with Israel where offers, which have been rejected. That is not to say that we feel that to be necessary, and successive Israeli it should not continue to make generous offers. It is Governments have done exactly the same with successive simply to say that the exhortations to Israel to make the Governments here in London. We enjoy a close and next move ignore the reality of the past 10 years. productive relationship with the Israeli Government, The context of the statement to the House was the and that very relationship allows us to have the candid near euphoria in this country about the changes in discussions that are often necessary between friends. many parts of the Arab world, which have been welcomed As a number of hon. Members have said, the potential on both sides of the House. We welcome changes and for collaboration between the United Kingdom and moves towards democracy in Egypt. There has been a Israel is enormous. Our partnership in the high-tech brave effort in Syria to deal with a regime that has been, industry could become one of the drivers of Britain’s to say the least, unkind to its people. There is successful economic growth. There is a long way to go before we democracy in Tunisia, and we all welcome those changes. get to that point—America still remains the first thought However, it is crucial to put them in the context of how for an Israeli entrepreneur thinking about international they appear to someone living in an Israeli state where co-operation—but we need to change that mindset, and the borders suddenly look extremely vulnerable for we have taken some important steps this year towards perhaps the first time in 30 years. Israel’s land border that goal. with Egypt has been a solid part of its security for the past 30 years, but suddenly there is a question as to First, in October, during a visit to Israel, my right where it is going. Syria has never been a friend of Israel, hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer launched and no one in the Chamber would claim that it was; a Britain-Israel high-tech hub. It is a new team, based in however, the border between them has been stable for a our embassy in Tel Aviv, tasked with promoting the generation. Discontent is clearly being shown in Jordan, high-tech partnership, with staff drawn entirely from and that border too has been a successful part of the the high-tech sector. Its job will be to help find partners peace process in Israel. Israel seems to be threatened by for Israeli companies, bring the best of Israeli innovation change on all sides. Finally, the malign influence of the to British companies and help our two economies to Iranian regime is present in both southern Lebanon and exploit each other’s potential. the Gaza strip. That, again, is part of the context that Secondly, also in October, my right hon. Friend the was missing from the statement. Minister for Universities and Science went to Israel, I have three or four questions, and I would appreciate too, with a high-powered delegation from our digital it if the Minister could respond to them. First, why did industries. We intend to continue the exchange of the statement ignore the efforts made by Israel over the delegations from across the high-tech sector in the past 10 years? That is a reasonable question. Secondly, coming year. why did the statement almost fully argue that the expectation Finally, regarding political initiatives, my right hon. was that Israel should make the next move? Israel Friend the Prime Minister and Israeli Prime Minister certainly has to make a move, but to say that the onus is Netanyahu have agreed to launch a UK-Israel high-tech entirely on Israel’s shoulders was questionable. Thirdly, council. It will meet twice a year, once in the UK and why was no equal and corresponding demand made of once in Israel, to make sure that our strategy is right. the Palestinian Authority to show a degree of flexibility? Finally, why did the statement ignore the context? As I I could point to other examples of increased co-operation said, although we welcome the changes, we must between our two countries. For example, in science and acknowledge that they look threatening to a state of innovation, a major conference on regenerative medicine 7 million people surrounded by potentially hostile took place in November. Another example is education, neighbours. where we are planning a campaign to ensure that the United Kingdom resumes its place as the destination of The Israeli Government have shown a willingness to choice for Israeli students. A third example is cultural engage. I believe that the only way forward is a two-state co-operation, where the work of the British Council solution, which will happen only through negotiation. and bilateral exchanges between Israel and the United The British Government, with our experience in Northern Kingdom are helping to bring about a greater understanding Ireland, can contribute positively to that debate, but the of the culture of our two countries. debate needs a balanced approach and balanced language. Paul Flynn: The political editor of The Daily Telegraph 11.20 am has alleged that a meeting that took place in February The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): First, this year between the previous Defence Secretary, Adam I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy Werritty and others was attended by Mossad. As the (Guto Bebb) on securing this debate. The attendance of report that we have on the matter decided that that was a large number of my right hon. and hon. Friends and a private meeting, is it not time that we looked at the hon. Members from other parties at this 30-minute policy followed by Mr Adam Werritty as possibly something 303WH Israel14 DECEMBER 2011 Israel 304WH

[Paul Flynn] equivalent land swaps; a just, fair and realistic solution for refugees; and agreement on Jerusalem as the future that would lead to a conflict with Iran and had a capital of both states. legitimate report into the Adam Werritty-former Defence It is clear from what I have said about land swaps that Secretary affair, because the only enforcer of the ministerial we expect—I think that both parties do—the final code is Philip Mawer— status of settlements to be addressed in negotiations. I believe that Israel’s announcement last month that it Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair): Order. I am afraid that would accelerate the construction of a further 2,000 that is far too long for an intervention. settlement housing units was wrong and deeply counter- productive. That was the eighth announcement of settlement Mr Lidington: I think that it was an ingenious attempt expansion in six months, and there have been further by the hon. Gentleman to import some completely such announcements since. irrelevant material into a debate about an important Settlements not only are illegal under international subject. There has been a full report by the Cabinet law and in direct contravention of Israel’s road map Secretary and numerous parliamentary questions from commitments, but more practically, represent an attempt the hon. Gentleman and others. I do not propose to go to create facts on the ground, which will make a two-state beyond the responses provided in those documents this solution, with Jerusalem as a shared capital, even harder morning. I shall move on to the middle east peace to achieve. We have called on Israel to reverse its plans process, which was the subject of a large part of the to accelerate settlement construction, and we are clear opening speech of my hon. Friend the Member for that we believe that all settlement activity, including in Aberconwy. east Jerusalem, should cease immediately. Mr Offord: Will the Minister give way? We were concerned by the Israeli Government’s decision to withhold tax revenues to the Palestinian Authority, Mr Lidington: I have five minutes to speak, and I which we believe was provocative and against Israel’s want to try to reply to what has been said. I hope that own interests, because it had direct implications for the my hon. Friend will forgive me. Palestinian Authority’s ability to maintain effective security in the west bank. My right hon. Friend the Foreign The events in the Arab world this year reinforce the Secretary made clear our view on 3 November, and we urgent need to make progress on the middle east peace welcome the fact that Israel has subsequently released process. We are clear that a solution cannot be imposed the funds. We urge the Israeli Government to maintain from outside. We believe that both parties—I emphasise a predictable and regular transfer of such revenues. that—need to redouble their efforts to break the impasse and resume negotiations on a two-state solution to the I do not propose to go into detail about our approach Israeli-Palestinian conflict before the window to such a to the Palestinian application to the United Nations; solution closes. Neither side can afford to let the opportunity the Foreign Secretary has spoken about that before. for peace slip further from its grasp. A successful outcome There is no time to waste in making progress towards will require good will and a willingness to compromise peace. Successful negotiations are the best way to give from both sides. the Israeli people the long-term security that they yearn To respond to an intervention by, I think, my hon. for and deserve, and the Palestinian people the state to Friend the Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison), if which they are entitled. Doing nothing is not an option, Hamas is to be regarded as a player in the peace and the Government remain committed to working process, it needs to show that it is genuine about making with the Palestinians, the Israeli Government and other concrete progress towards accepting the Quartet conditions, international partners to make progress towards a negotiated which will form the basis of any enduring peaceful agreement. We will continue to develop our bilateral settlement. partnership with Israel, while not ceasing in our efforts to support both parties in finding a long-term and We have been clear in our call for negotiations on a sustainable solution to the broader Israeli-Palestinian two-state solution without delay and without preconditions, conflict, which has dragged on for too long. based on the timetable set out in the Quartet statement of 23 September. In our view, the parameters for a Palestinian state are those affirmed by the European 11.30 am Union as a whole—borders based on 1967 lines, with Sitting suspended. 305WH 14 DECEMBER 2011 Dyslexia 306WH

Dyslexia help in A-level and GCSE papers, under a crackdown by exam bodies introduced by the Joint Council for Qualifications. [MR MIKE WEIR in the Chair] Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): 2.30 pm Has my hon. Friend read the report of the Science and Technology Committee on literacy interventions from Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): It is a pleasure two years ago? If he has not, I will quickly read two to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Weir, possibly for quotes from it: the first time. Forgive me if I am wrong. “The Rose report’s definition of dyslexia is exceedingly broad This debate on dyslexia was initiated following a and says that dyslexia is a continuum with no clear cut-off points. meeting of the all-party parliamentary group on dyslexia The definition is so broad and blurred at the edges that it is and specific learning difficulties, which raised three difficult to see how it could be useful in any diagnostic sense. particular concerns: first, the changes to the examination The Government’s focus on dyslexia, from a policy perspective, access arrangements issued by the Joint Council for was led by pressure from the dyslexia lobby rather than the Qualifications; secondly, the Green Paper—I will not evidence, which is clear that educational interventions are the read out its title—of which we are aware; and thirdly, same for all poor readers, whether they have been diagnosed with the continued need to include in initial teacher training dyslexia or not.” the teaching of children with dyslexia. Will my hon. Friend take a look at that report? I am I am pleased to lead the debate. Dyslexia is an important sure it would help him in his work on the Committee. subject and is of concern to millions of our fellow citizens and constituents. Astonishingly, one in 10 of Kelvin Hopkins: I thank my hon. Friend for his helpful the population experiences dyslexia to some degree. The intervention. We are aware that there is an enormously condition stays with people for life. Some people can broad spectrum, from slight spelling difficulties to almost accommodate it to an extent on occasions; others find an inability to read. At the same time, there is a definite that more difficult. Like colour blindness, it is a condition difference between those who have a degree of dyslexia that is hidden and sometimes not even recognised. I am and those who just have difficulty learning to read, sure we all have friends, relatives and certainly many perhaps because they are educationally challenged. Clearly, constituents who are dyslexic. The lives of millions of we need rigorous teaching of reading. In a completely adults have been affected by dyslexia. separate context, I am strongly in favour of more rigour in the way we teach young people to read and to learn Even now, many people live with their dyslexia mathematics and other subjects. I take note of what my unrecognised, particularly those of my generation. I hon. Friend said. No doubt the Minister and my hon. suspect I am the oldest person in the room. In my day, it Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland was a strange word; nobody in my experience knew the West (Mrs Hodgson) will also respond to his points. word dyslexia. There were no doubt children in classes when I was at school who were constantly punished and The JCQ rules clearly discriminate in that the treated rather cruelly sometimes because they could not measurement scores they use affect some youngsters spell or read. There was no understanding that they had and not others; some are excluded from help and others an inherent difficulty or disability. get help, because of an arbitrary decision by the JCQ Dyslexia affects people across the ability range; it is on what their needs are. Complaints have been made not limited to people with learning difficulties. Many about that by parents and teachers across the country, famous and celebrated people suffer from dyslexia, and including Helen Wright, president of the Girls’ Schools it can affect people who are highly intelligent. I give as Association, who said that a number of sixth-formers, an example one of my relatives. He failed the 11-plus, without being given extra time for exams or other help, essentially because he was dyslexic, yet he finished up would studying physics at Imperial College later in life. He is “definitely fail, and unfairly so”. clearly a man of considerable intelligence who could There are those who will suffer from the application of not pass the 11-plus because he was dyslexic. Our the rules who would otherwise do better. I hope the concern today is that teachers often lack the skills to Minister will respond and give further consideration to identify and support dyslexic children, who need to be the question of the arbitrary cut-off point. diagnosed and given extra support. Many thousands of children across the whole ability As a member of the all-party group, I was pleased range are not getting the help they need, and are not when my right hon. Friend the Member for Morley and even being diagnosed, because of the lack of specific Outwood (Ed Balls), Secretary of State for Children, training for teachers. There are no doubt some who, Schools and Families in the previous Parliament and even today, do not recognise dyslexia, thinking it is just now shadow Chancellor, commissioned a report on about youngsters who are not very good at reading, and education and dyslexia, which became the Rose review. do not recognise it as a specific and identifiable problem Rose recommended that initial teacher training should for some people. The problems experienced by those include dyslexia and special learning difficulties. However, youngsters are distressing for them but they are also currently there is no mandatory level of dyslexia training damaging to the economy and society as a whole. that must be provided in initial teacher training courses. Clearly if youngsters are becoming disillusioned with It is of great concern that little action has so far been education because of their dyslexia difficulties they taken to implement fully the recommendations of the drop out of school, education or training or have difficulty Rose report. Indeed, the situation is worse, in that with apprenticeships and so on. That is damaging not thousands of academically gifted teenagers with conditions just to their lives but to the economy and society in such as dyslexia have lost the right to extra and other general. Help for dyslexics to succeed in education at 307WH Dyslexia14 DECEMBER 2011 Dyslexia 308WH

[Kelvin Hopkins] and representatives from the main dyslexia organisations. We will continue that debate here today, and I hope we whatever level is a matter, therefore, for national concern will receive responses from the Minister to some of our and Government action. The Rose review should be concerns. implemented in full and the JCQ rules withdrawn. I want to record my thanks to the Dyslexia-SpLD Although I am not dyslexic, I have taken a particular Trust, Dyslexia Action, the British Dyslexia Association interest in the phenomenon. I know that it is not easily and Patoss for not just the excellent briefings they overcome, but a variety of coping strategies can be provided in advance of the debate but for the work they enormously beneficial. The academically gifted can perhaps do day in and day out to unlock the world of words for apply those more readily, but there are millions for dyslexic people, particularly children and young adults. whom it is more of a struggle. I was recently approached My hon. Friend the Member for Luton North gave an by a group of Labour councillors from Thanet, not excellent speech, which drew on the many concerns that because I am their Member of Parliament, but because those organisations have raised with us about the current I happen to be a Labour member of the all-party group direction of travel in the education system—concerns on dyslexia. They gave me some interesting statistics shared by anyone with an interest in helping young from their area. They are concerned that youngsters people with special educational needs get the most from from the most deprived areas of the constituency were life. not getting the help they needed and were falling further behind, exaggerating the educational gulf between their My hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton achievement levels and others, even those who might (Graham Stringer) commented on the thinking that have dyslexia. They want the Rose recommendations dyslexia, rather than being a disability, is to do with a implemented as a matter of urgency to address those very wide reading ability spectrum, along which most of problems. society would fall. He knows that I disagree with him on that point. There is a huge amount of evidence that The Rose review proposed among other things the proves that dyslexia is a very real and significant disability, training of 4,000 specialist teachers in dyslexia over a especially at the extreme end of the spectrum where it two-year period. That is quite a tall order, but that is goes way beyond a problem with learning to read and what he recommended. If we are going to approach and affects memory and organisational ability. attack the problem seriously, we need to follow that recommendation. Other recommendations were to boost early identification from year 1 and effective Kelvin Hopkins: I am sure that we have all come intervention for pupils with dyslexic difficulties, to across friends and relatives who have slight spelling make provision for dyslexia-awareness training for disabilities, particularly with unusual names and foreign existing teachers, to put more special educational words. At that end of the spectrum, we are not talking needs training into initial teacher training courses and about an inability to read. I am sure that my hon. to acknowledge the need for specialist teachers and Friend agrees that there is a difference between those of one-to-one interventions for severely dyslexic pupils. us who fairly quickly pick up names and foreign words The review also recommended that schools build a and those who do not, and that is, I believe, the thin end positive dialogue with parents and provide them with of the dyslexia wedge. relevant information, and provide support for children with dyslexia on transfer to secondary school, and that Mrs Hodgson: I agree. My son is severely dyslexic, there should be continuing helpline advice for parents and it affects not just his spelling and writing capability. and teachers. Dyslexics are often much slower in learning to speak, Dyslexic children have just as much right as any other and when my son was younger the condition affected child to be educated by teachers who understand them his speech. He was three before he first said a word that and their condition. We have made enormous progress was understandable to others—I could understand his in recognising dyslexia since the dark days of my childhood, grunts and moans a bit earlier. He has very bad memory but we must now demand the necessary support and problems and organisational ability; dyslexia really does resources for our dyslexic children, and only the affect a large part of his life. My daughter has been a Government can provide them. bad speller most of her life—she is 16 now and her spelling is getting a bit better—but in no way would I 2.40 pm say that she has dyslexia as I know it. They do say, however, that the condition runs in families, so she Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland might fall somewhere on the spectrum if she was ever West) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve under your tested. chairmanship, Mr Weir. I fear that the vote in the House has caused disruption for many people who intended to be in this debate, but what we lack in Graham Stringer: I follow the people who do not take quantity we will make up for between us in quality. my hon. Friend’s view, such as Diane McGuiness and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Luton North other academics who gave evidence to the Science and (Kelvin Hopkins) for securing this timely debate. As he Technology Committee, but I was not trying to make said, I was at the meeting of the all-party group on the point that there is no complete scientific agreement dyslexia and specific learning difficulties at which he that dyslexia exists. I was saying that having carefully resolved to apply for this debate. His success in doing so considered the definition and how it was applied, the gives us a great opportunity to take forward the discussion Committee came to the conclusion, which I will repeat, we were having in that meeting, along with the hon. that the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset (Mr Liddell- “definition is so broad and blurred at the edges that it is difficult Grainger), the noble Lords Addington and Clement-Jones to see how it could be useful in any diagnostic sense.” 309WH Dyslexia14 DECEMBER 2011 Dyslexia 310WH

The Committee was concerned that because of the use many teachers have a woefully inadequate knowledge of of the term, people who had difficulties learning to read dyslexia. It was not until my son was nine that he came and who were not diagnosed were being discriminated across a teacher who could spot what I now understand against. were glaringly obvious signs, and even then, that was probably because her own son had dyslexia as well, as I Mrs Hodgson: Obviously, I am not an expert in the later found out. Too many children in their early years diagnosis of dyslexia, but there are people who are, and of school life are going through the motions without when they do the various tests what comes out is being noticed and supported. Like other communication something called a spiky chart. Where there is a huge difficulties, that can manifest itself in significant problems disparity between performance in non-verbal reasoning further down the line such as rebellious behaviour, and other tests of intelligence on the one hand and depression or, as we find in our prisons and young reading and writing ability on the other, it becomes very offender institutions, criminality, which often starts as obvious that someone is dyslexic. If someone has not youth disorder. very good reading skills but equally does not have high The answer, in one word, is training. I understand levels of intelligence, they have a flatter profile. Perhaps that a module on dyslexia that has the backing of the at the lower edge of the spectrum, as my hon. Friend sector has been prepared and is ready for incorporation the Member for Luton North has said—this is getting in initial teacher training, but the Minister also indicated into a very technical conversation—diagnosis might be in her letter to me that the Department has commissioned difficult and there might be blurred edges, but as we new materials on specific learning difficulties, which progress along the spectrum I do not think that the will be available online in the spring. Will those materials edges are blurred. Again, however, I am not an expert. form a mandatory part of the initial teacher training course, and will she consider the sector’s calls to incorporate Kelvin Hopkins: My hon. Friend touched on dyslexia the existing module from 2005 as a minimum requirement? being an inherited characteristic, and I am sure that we She might be aware that the British Dyslexia Association all know families in which a parent is dyslexic and one has an online petition calling for the 2005 module to be or more of their children is. Two male friends of mine used for teacher training; I think the BDA is seeking who are graduates have three children each, and dyslexia 100,000 signatures. has affected only one child in each family, with that child having a serious spelling disability. All six children went to university and graduated. Kelvin Hopkins: My hon. Friend mentioned people in prison and people with personal difficulties in life. I am Mrs Hodgson: The chair of our all-party group, the sure that she, like me, has come across youngsters with hon. Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset, is behavioural problems at school that can be traced back dyslexic, and I believe that his two sons are also. Yes, it to self-esteem problems due to difficulties with spelling, is a trait that runs in families, and that is recognised. which in their case is dyslexia. That stress can be relieved early on by saying, “You have a condition that we can Most Members here today know of my personal help you to cope with. It is not something you should be interest in this issue, as a mother of a severely dyslexic ashamed of or behave badly over; it is something that son. My son was unfortunately not diagnosed or helped we can help with and that many other people experience.” anywhere near soon enough. The Minister also knows If we can convey that to young people, we can probably very well most of the concerns that have been raised avoid a lot of the problems in life that many of them today, because we have already had debates on the suffer. matter and have been in correspondence recently. I thank her for her comprehensive response to my first letter, and I look forward to her response to my reply, Mrs Hodgson: My hon. Friend makes a good point. which she might preview today. Early identification is vital. The earlier we can identify I wrote that first letter because I had started to see all special educational needs, not just dyslexia, the how various changes in education policy could, when better, but we find that speech, language and communication taken together, start to put children with certain special disorders such as dyslexia often have the biggest effect educational needs at a disadvantage, and I used dyslexia on children’s self-esteem, and can often lead to problems to illustrate my point because that was the SEN I had such as youth disorder further down the line. The personal experience of and knew best—I could see how number of people in prison with speech, language and the changes would have affected my son if he had been communication difficulties and dyslexia is anywhere coming up to the start of key stage 4 now. I have no from 60% to 80%. The noble Lord Ramsbotham is doubt that the potential effect is not desired at all by the knowledgeable about the issue and speaks about it a lot. Minister or her officials, and that it is one of those Much of the problem could be failure to diagnose unintended consequences that we sometimes do not see special educational needs in our schools. We must ensure unless we are looking at something from the outside, or that children with a label get the right label, whether it until the effect has begun to manifest itself in statistics. involves dyslexia, behavioural problems, autism or whatever, rather than “naughty”, “lazy” or “disruptive”. There are a number of issues on which I will touch briefly. My hon. Friend has mentioned many of them already. It is best in most narratives to start at the Kelvin Hopkins: To refer to my childhood, which was beginning, and in this case the beginning is initial a long time ago, teachers regularly used to beat us on teacher training. Without teachers in our classrooms the back of the hand with rulers in those days. I was not who can spot the signs of dyslexia and teach in a way beaten, because I was not dyslexic and was good at that does not alienate dyslexic children, we will continue sums, but lots of my classmates were, simply because to fail those children. I know from bitter experience that they had those sorts of problem. 311WH Dyslexia14 DECEMBER 2011 Dyslexia 312WH

Mrs Hodgson: That is a world we never want to go forward to seeing the results of the consultation, as I back to. Thankfully, that does not happen in our classrooms know we all do. However, the concern throughout the now, but what happens is that codes of conduct are sector is that young people with non-medical problems given out. I saw it with my own son. He did not write such as dyslexia might not warrant support when school down enough work from the board, so he came home action and school action plus are abolished, as very few with various punishments. The code of conduct was dyslexic children are currently statemented. I sincerely writing out the school rules. I got off the train from hope that that will not be the case. I will welcome any London one evening and walked into the house at assurance that the Minister can give us. 11 o’clock to find him still at the kitchen table writing We then come to how support will be provided if a out his punishment, the school rules. The punishment dyslexic pupil is deemed to need it. Local authority was given because the teacher thought he had not done budgets are being stretched to breaking point right now. enough work. The proliferation of the academies and free schools My son was 14 and had started at a new secondary desired by the Secretary of State will mean that few school when we moved. I insisted that all the teachers at funds will be held centrally with which to sustain shared least knew that he was dyslexic. I was not asking for support services. I know that I have asked the Minister special treatment, just that they knew he was severely this before, but I hope that she will guarantee today that dyslexic and was statemented. I was assured that they support for dyslexic students will not get worse before it would all be told. As I walked in and saw the punishment, gets better due to the austerity programme being imposed I thought, “Either this is a very evil teacher, or he on local authorities, and that when the new system is doesn’t realise my son is severely dyslexic.” I wrote a fully up and running, the money will be there to back it. note to the teacher saying, “This is as far as my son got. I move to the end of students’ time in school. The I am stopping this punishment now. He is not going to Minister will know that I have concerns about the key do any more of these punishments. They must be stage 4 curriculum and examinations. I will not labour proportionate to his ability.” It was like a child who the point about the E-bac, but needless to say, it has came last in a sprint being forced to run a marathon. been installed as the gold standard set of qualifications, That was the equivalent of the punishment that he had despite the fact that it will exclude almost all young been given. people with dyslexia, as they are usually not taught A note came back the next day: “Very sorry, foreign languages, whether modern or ancient, for obvious Mrs Hodgson, we had no idea your child was dyslexic.” reasons. On assessment, Ofqual confirmed in a press That was unbelievable on many levels. The school was release today that it is implementing the changes to supposed to have told all his teachers that he had GCSEs that the Government told it to make—scrapping dyslexia, and it was obvious to anybody who knows modular examinations, which allow students to break anything about the condition that my son is dyslexic. up their learning into more manageable chunks and sit That had not been picked up in him—a child in a new exams as they go along, when the subject is fresh in school. What if he had not been diagnosed in a previous their minds. Instead, from next year students will be school? At any stage in a child’s journey through school, required to learn for two years—a bit like when we sat teachers should be able to diagnose such disorders. our O-levels—and commit all of that learning to paper I know that we have plenty of time, but I will go back in one go. That intensity will pose a challenge for many to the substance of my speech. The latest issue to children with SEN, but especially dyslexics, given the present itself is the phonics screening that will now be memory problems I mentioned. required during children’s first years at school. I was The support that young people with dyslexia need to more than a little annoyed to see in a departmental be able even to sit their exams, let alone do well in them, press release over the weekend that the Minister’s colleague, is also under threat. The Minister will, I hope, have seen the Minister of State, Department for Education, the my latest letter to her in which I drew her attention to hon. Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton an article by Jack Grimston in The Sunday Times on (Mr Gibb), referred to the fact that one in 10 11-year-olds 20 November. He reports the concerns that school could read no better than a seven-year-old as evidence teachers have over the changes that the Joint Council that his favoured phonics scheme is needed, without for Qualifications has made to eligibility for access mentioning that one in 10 11-year-olds have dyslexia. arrangements in examinations, which my hon. Friend Strangely, the same press release did not mention that the Member for Luton North highlighted. two thirds of teachers who took part in the pilot disagreed The changes will prevent bright pupils with dyslexia that the check accurately assessed the decoding ability from getting extra time or a reader and a scribe in of pupils with special educational needs. That is why exams to mitigate their limited reading and writing there are so many concerns about complete reliance on abilities, which gives them a level playing field with their phonics as both a measure of ability and a teaching non-dyslexic peers. That will have a detrimental effect method. It is also crucial that children who fail the on the qualifications that they will be able to achieve. phonics test, as a dyslexic child almost certainly will, are There are many bright pupils with dyslexia, as we have not made to feel as though they have failed—although heard today, some of whom go on to doctorates in the test can be good, from the point of view that it physics. They say that Einstein was dyslexic, and I could identifies them. Appropriate remedial action, including list many other examples. testing for dyslexia, should be taken in a timely manner. In a timed exam, the most intelligent young person is That brings me to the Government’s plans for the only ever as good as their ability to read the questions future of SEN provision, and the ability of those who set and transfer the answers from their minds to the will be expected to deliver it to do so. The Minister paper, which is why the most severely dyslexic pupil is knows that I welcomed the Green Paper as a means of given a reader and a scribe. In making the changes, the opening debate on SEN provision, and that I look JCQ is limiting what intelligent dyslexics can achieve, 313WH Dyslexia14 DECEMBER 2011 Dyslexia 314WH and from my conversations with the sector, it appears to including a young lad with a very mild disability; he has have done so without any consultation. I urge the had no assessment yet, so no one really knows what his Minister to look into the matter and intervene where needs are. He is supposed to be taking his GCSE necessary to ensure that such young people are not held options next year, but he has never been to a secondary back by their disability. school because a suitable place is not on offer. People Finally, I understand from today’s Ofqual announcement do not understand what his issues are and there is no that once the exams have been sat, dyslexics will be at a funding for a travel grant, which might open up some disadvantage yet again during marking, because the options for him. There are large numbers of extreme proportion of marks for spelling, punctuation and grammar cases. in certain subjects is being increased following interventions My Bill suggests that, common to all the cases I am from the Secretary of State. Even if a dyslexic pupil gets dealing with, a wider burden of proof for parents to be a reader and a scribe, whose spelling is the examiner able to demonstrate that their child has SEN would be marking? extremely helpful. The old statement route catered for people with medium to high need, but did not help to Kelvin Hopkins: I am sorry to intervene once again on provide leverage for parents whose children had lesser my hon. Friend’s excellent speech. The points she raises needs. In one case, a young girl with a reading age four suggest that dyslexic pupils should be identified and the years below her age was not considered to be significantly fact that a pupil is dyslexic recorded on the examination falling behind. If parents have paid for, or got a charity paper, so that allowances are made. I heard only today to make, an independent assessment from a qualified of a young woman who is highly intelligent in conversation assessor, that should be enough to require the local and can come top of her class in most things, but has authority to take action. difficulty with writing due to her dyslexia. Every time Teacher training has been mentioned, but training she is tested orally, she does brilliantly, but when she is for those in local education authorities is also important. tested in writing, she has more difficulty. Part of our frustration in getting cases resolved was due to people not understanding what CReSTeD—Council Mrs Hodgson: I hope that the Minister will take up for the Registration of Schools Teaching Dyslexic Pupils— those other concerns with the JCQ and that compensations accreditation was, or what the different levels meant for can be made in marking. We do not ask for favourable a particular individual. We were not really dealing with treatment for dyslexics, but for their disability to be educationalists, which was partly due to staffing problems recognised and accommodations made, so that there is at the local education authority, so I echo the comments a level playing field. of the hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland I have not set out to make political points today West (Mrs Hodgson). Training should be extended to because the debate has been well informed and constructive, the LEA. and I know that supporting young people with dyslexia The local education authority should already be required is important to Members on both sides of both Houses. to publish what provision is available in its area, but I sincerely hope that the Minister will commit to returning many do not, yet such a requirement would help parents with her officials to look at the specific concerns raised tremendously. When the LEA has decided that a need today, and that she will take any necessary steps to will be catered for under school action plus, it should mitigate, or indeed undo, the impact of what are the, I send the parents a quality letter, not simply one that hope, unintended consequences that the various reforms tells them that the need will be covered in school action and changes may have on the education and life chances plus, so they should not worry. They should get detailed of the estimated 750,000 young people in our schools information about what that will mean for their child and colleges who have dyslexia. week by week.

Several hon. Members rose— Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): I congratulate the hon. Lady on her ten-minute rule Bill. I hope that it Mr Mike Weir (in the Chair): Order. Although we are moves to the next stage and influences Government. into the wind-up speeches and it is rather unusual, if She said that she wanted detailed letters from the local neither of the Front-Bench spokeswomen object, I will authority, which not only say, “Your child is falling allow a contribution from Miss Mordaunt. behind and has a problem”, but identify the problem. There is sometimes an overlap between dyslexia, dyspraxia, 3.4 pm low academic ability and other conditions that can Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): Thank confuse the diagnosis, but the local education authority you, Mr Weir. I congratulate the hon. Member for should be able to define dyslexia when it writes the Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) on securing this important letters. debate. I have a ten-minute rule Bill, which is barely alive, on special educational needs, with particular focus Penny Mordaunt: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely on dyslexia and pragmatic language disorders. I thank right. Getting an assessment to start with is a battle for both Front-Bench spokeswomen for allowing me to say parents, and then they must have confidence in it and in a few words. I apologise for being late; I have been in a the remedial action that should be taken. Many parents Committee. I have been dealing with have not had satisfaction on My Bill was motivated by the enormous amount of any of those fronts. casework in my constituency. There are very sad cases I would be grateful if the Minister could say more of extremely large numbers of children who have low to about the statutory responsibilities of the Department medium educational needs that are not being met by the for Education and the discussions she may have had local authority. I was dealing with about 30 cases, with the Department of Health. We need to strengthen 315WH Dyslexia14 DECEMBER 2011 Dyslexia 316WH

[Penny Mordaunt] bit late, because I was anxious that we would not have so many Members contributing. This issue interests the tools available to parents and other advocates for Members right across the House, and I am aware of the these children. My constituents certainly believe that hon. Gentleman’s involvement in the all-party group, they pay their taxes to ensure that the education system whose input and advice I have very much welcomed. we provide gives every child the education they need to I listened with interest to the rather technical debate reach their full potential. between the hon. Members for Washington and Sunderland One of my final points relates to costs. Where we West (Mrs Hodgson) and for Blackley and Broughton have not been able to get a school place for some of the (Graham Stringer). None us is a qualified educational children in my constituency, we have actually funded psychologist, and it has certainly been an awfully long placements for them, and I should like to place on time since I did any neurophysiology. The Government record my thanks to a number of London livery companies take their advice from the best and latest scientific and local Rotarians for providing funds to allow that to advice available. The Rose report tried to get away from happen. In just one year, the girl I mentioned at the the debate about the exact nature and cause of the start, who was four years behind her expected reading difficulties that people face—something that was often age, has caught up. She is a bright girl, and having been distracting for many students—and instead tried to given the proper, full-time dyslexia teaching that she focus on solving the individual child’s problems, whatever needed, she is now doing really well. they might be, as they present in the classroom. With An argument that is often thrown back at us is that that in mind, I will not get involved in the detail of that providing all the top-notch SEN provision that children debate, because it might be better if it took place need costs too much and that the state cannot possibly somewhere else between expert educational psychologists. afford it, but that is a bit of a myth. The placement that Instead, I will deal rather more with service provision. we have funded for the child I mentioned cost less than Dyslexia affects a significant number of pupils. From the provision that the local authority would have had to the school census, we know that 78,000 pupils receive put in place in the school that it chose for her. It is support for a specific learning difficulty, including dyslexia possible to do these things, and they will often save the and dyspraxia. They receive that support through school state money not only initially, but, as has been mentioned, action plus or a statement of SEN educational needs. in the long term, given all the problems and issues that About 11% of all pupils receive such support. Many people have if they do not get the help that they need. others will be supported as part of a personalised approach to teaching in the classroom, as a number of Mrs Hodgson: The hon. Lady is making some important hon. Members mentioned. That will perhaps involve points, and she makes a good point about spending additional help from teachers or teaching assistants. money wisely. Research has been done—I do not have it Dyslexia primarily affects the skills involved in accurate in front of me, but that is not necessary to make my and fluent word spelling and reading, and it can occur point—showing that an hour with a specialist dyslexia across the range of pupils’ intellectual abilities. We teacher is worth more than 50 hours with a well-meaning know from parents and pupils that they are often frustrated teaching assistant who is not able to give the specific with the assumptions made about what they can achieve, support that a child needs. I might have the ratio wrong, and the Opposition spokesperson, the hon. Member for but it is in that realm. Washington and Sunderland West, referred to the case of her son. Sometimes that can lead to incredible frustration Penny Mordaunt: That is absolutely right. and a stymieing of aspiration in individual students. To carry on using the example of the girl I mentioned—I For far too long, there has been a real attainment gap have said this to the Minister before—the problem was between students with dyslexia and their peers. The not so much that the local authority could not be proportion of pupils with a specific learning difficulty bothered to find her a suitable place as that the restrictions gaining the expected qualifications has more than doubled on how it could use its funding meant that it could not since 2006, but the gap remains far too large. In 2010, fund some of the obvious solutions. Will the Minister fewer than one in six such pupils, or just under 15%, therefore say something about how she might reform achieved five GCSEs at grades A* to C, including the rules governing how local authorities and schools English and maths, compared with more than half of can spend particular pots of money, to ensure that we pupils as whole. The Government are determined to see use that money in the best and most sensible way to that change and to improve overall outcomes for pupils meet people’s educational needs, whether they have with SEN or a disability. Support for pupils with SEN is dyslexia, a pragmatic language disorder or autism? We provided within a statutory framework that has, must ensure that we get every child who needs this unfortunately, remained largely unchanged for three provision the help that they need. decades. One of the first things that I did when I became a 3.13 pm Minister was to begin a review of special educational needs. In March this year, I published our Green Paper, The Minister of State, Department for Education “Support and aspiration: A new approach to special (Sarah Teather): It is a pleasure to serve under your educational needs and disability”, which sets out plans chairmanship again, Mr Weir. It is a Wednesday afternoon; fundamentally to reform the special educational needs I am here in a debate that you are chairing; and I am system. It was a response to a set of core problems that very pleased to see you. undermined the achievement of too many children and I congratulate the hon. Member for Luton North young people, and those problems have been mentioned (Kelvin Hopkins) on securing the debate. It was good to by a number of hon. Members, including the hon. see other Members come into the Chamber, although a Member for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt). The 317WH Dyslexia14 DECEMBER 2011 Dyslexia 318WH problems include parents having to battle through a I suppose the reason for giving the relevant marker to confusing and adversarial system to get the support children who fall behind might be to try to find out their child needs; SEN statements not joining provision whether there is an underlying reason. up, with education, health and care often ending up being provided disparately, and families having to go Sarah Teather: When Ofsted reported, a rather heated between the three different providers to negotiate their debate took place between teaching unions and Ofsted, own package of support; children falling between the and it shed a lot of heat but not light. Many accusations gaps in services or having to undergo multiple assessments; were thrown from both sides about motives. I do not and paperwork and bureaucracy adding to delays, rather think that teachers label a child as having special educational than providing the support that is needed. needs to get round league tables or for similar reasons. It is human nature, when a problem is seen, to label it. Kelvin Hopkins: The Minister is talking about delays. Unfortunately, that labelling was often not followed by A number of members of my family have been action. It is all very well to label a child, but it is schoolteachers, and getting statements has often been purposeless to do so if no action follows. The child then an enormous difficulty. Sometimes, it has taken up to a carries a label with them, irrespective of whether it is year before a child who clearly needed to be statemented helpful, and does not get the support needed to enable actually was statemented. The suspicion is that local them to progress. We are trying to get away from the authorities are trying to delay things to save money. I focus on labelling, and instead to adopt an approach in hope the Minister will take that into account. which those concerned look at the child in front of them, and ask what they need. Some of that approach, Sarah Teather: One thing that we suggested in the to be fair, is about good teaching practice, which will Green Paper was speeding up the process, but this is deal with many needs. also a question of trying to make clear what the thresholds should be, and I will say a little more about that later. Kelvin Hopkins: The hon. Lady is right about dealing The other thing that informed the Government’s with individual children. Boys need more pressure and work on the Green Paper was Ofsted’s report, which rigour in school, when they are young, than girls do. showed that too many children are being over-identified Girls tend to be more conscientious and are now succeeding as having SEN. In other words, the wrong children are in education. In every field and at every level they now often labelled as having SEN, and we need to ensure beat boys. I agree that we need to consider teaching that we put in place the right support for children at the quality as well, so that youngsters do not fall behind right time. because they are more interested in playing on the At the heart of the Government’s vision for the computer, or doing something not to do with their reforms is a desire to support better life outcomes for studies. Rigour in education is right for all youngsters. young people, to increase parents’ confidence in the However, we also need to take account of those with system and to transfer powers to the front line and local specific difficulties. communities, as we are trying to do across all areas of policy. To achieve those changes, we are introducing a Sarah Teather: All sorts of young people fall behind. new approach to identifying SEN to challenge the culture The fact that so many young people born in the summer of low expectations. There will be a new, single early-years are in the school action category is particularly good setting and school-based category of SEN. evidence that we do not at the moment necessarily label I heard the concerns of the hon. Member for Washington the right children. Other children who may have specific and Sunderland West, who was worried that it might needs go through school without being identified. That lead to some young people not getting the support they is not good enough, because such children do not get need, but I should stress that, of course, school action the support they need. at the moment brings with it no extra funds. School The Green Paper made some radical proposals to action plus money is provided to schools on the basis of change the system. As several Members, including the other proxy indicators, rather than the number of children hon. Member for Portsmouth North, said, we have actually in the relevant category in previous years, so it just finished a consultation and will respond to it in the should make no difference to the resources that are new year. The rest of what I say now on the matter will allocated. However, it will make it easier for schools to pick up on what we have already said, rather than decide how to deal with the young people that they announcing what we will do. Hon. Members will have focus on. Many of them say that the existing categories to wait a few weeks, until we have finished crunching are somewhat bureaucratic. Ofsted has made the point through the detail of the consultation. We had an that some children are labelled as having special education enormous number of responses from parents, charities needs when really they are just falling behind. That is a and teachers. That is very helpful detail and we need to rather different debate from the one about specific work through it. learning difficulties. As I said during my introduction, many pupils with dyslexia receive most of their support in the classroom Mrs Hodgson: We are looking for reassurance that through high-quality, personalised teaching. We know when the reason for children falling behind is an underlying from the independent review led by Sir Jim Rose that special educational need, rather than there being no the early identification of problems and the right teaching specific reason, they will still be identified by some support are critical to helping dyslexic pupils achieve. marker. They might not need the education, health and Alongside the special educational needs reforms we are care plan, and all that it brings, but the marker would also working with schools to support teachers to identify have been school action or school action plus. Will there and respond to pupils with dyslexia. Difficulty with still be some mechanism to identify those children? phonics and the ability to identify and manipulate the 319WH Dyslexia14 DECEMBER 2011 Dyslexia 320WH

[Sarah Teather] will help, because we know that it supports pupils’ approach to learning to read, particularly for those who sound of words is central to the challenges that dyslexic are dyslexic. pupils face. It is also a critical element for all children I want to make some wider comments about support learning to read. for teachers and work force development, which goes to We are introducing a new phonics screening check for the heart of our programme on SEN. It begins with the children in year 1, which should pick up children struggling new standards for qualified teacher status, which include with early literacy because of dyslexia. I think that the a continued focus on meeting the needs of all children, hon. Member for Washington and Sunderland West including those with special educational needs or who slightly misunderstood some things about the statement are disabled. Similarly, as part of the national scholarship at the weekend by my colleague the schools Minister. programme for teachers, we have a clear focus on supporting When he highlighted the fact that inadequate numbers teachers to improve and extend their knowledge and of young people were passing the screening test at the expertise when working with pupils with special educational relevant stage, he was trying to make the point that needs and disability, including specific impairments. phonics, as a system for teaching reading, had not It is anticipated that around 50% of those scholarships properly embedded in teaching at the earliest stages of will be available to support SEND. We have provided schooling. He was not labelling half of children as funding for up to 9,000 special educational needs failing. He was recognising how much further we need co-ordinators to complete the mandatory higher level to go to embed the practice clearly in the way teachers SENCO award by the end of 2011-12. The Teaching teach the youngest children to read, from the beginning. Schools network, which will allow schools to support We know that phonics is particularly helpful for identifying each other and drive up the quality of teaching, will difficulties in children who have dyslexia. help to improve the quality of support for pupils with special educational needs or a disability. Of the first Graham Stringer: The Minister has been speaking an 121 designated schools, 113 have been judged as outstanding enormous amount of sense, recognising that teaching for the quality of learning and progress of pupils with children to read is one of the most important things special educational needs. The new Teaching Schools that the state does. I think she has recognised that Jim initiative has real potential to radically improve the Rose recommended in his report that systematic phonics quality of peer-to-peer mentoring and support for teachers should be at the heart of good Government strategy for in relation to SEN. teaching children to read. When the Select Committee on Science and Technology considered the scientific Penny Mordaunt: On support, one of the other problems basis for the Government’s policy, we found from the that I encountered in Portsmouth was that, where a written and oral evidence that there was still, in the child had not got a school place and the parents were wave 3 reading recovery programme, a continuing practice trying to do their best to teach them at home, they of word memorisation and the use of whole language received no support, because if they admitted to the theory. That does exactly the opposite of what the local authority that they were teaching the child at Minister has been saying about recognising phonics and home, they were instantly crossed off the waiting list for the transferability of the sound and the letter. Has she a school place. I would be interested to know whether had a look at what is happening in wave 3 reading the Minister has any views about how such training and recovery? support could be extended to provide parents whose children are at home waiting for a school place with the Sarah Teather: I certainly looked at the reading recovery support and help that they need to ensure that they are programme, Every Child a Reader, most of which is not missing out. based around phonics. There are some other, more flexible, practices. We must recognise that although the Sarah Teather: I cannot comment on a specific case, evidence suggests that systematic phonics is absolutely but perhaps if the hon. Lady drops me a note about the the most effective way to teach children to read, some matter, I will have a look at it. In the Green Paper, we children for various reasons will not respond to that indicated that local authorities need to provide support system, and it is important to have some flexibility at to families who are home schooling a child. They are the margins to pick up the children who have fallen often doing so because they have been unable to get the through the net. However, almost all the programme is support that they need in mainstream settings or perhaps still based around systematic phonics. because their local special school did not provide them with the support that they wanted. Kelvin Hopkins: I agree with the Minister and my I want to say something about Achievement for All hon. Friend about phonics for those who do not have because it goes to the heart of some of the issues that the disabilities in question. Two generations of teachers we have been discussing about the need for someone to have almost been forbidden phonics in schools. Even in look at the child in front of them and have high aspirations, the past year I have come across a teacher working in rather than necessarily think about the labels. The London who was forbidden to make any reference to Achievement for All programme has been running in phonics in school. We still have a serious problem. around 450 schools for the past two years, and the evaluation has demonstrated some dramatic results. Sarah Teather: To support the teaching of systematic Under the programme, children made greater progress synthetic phonics we are making £3,000 of match funding in English and mathematics than other children with available to all schools with key stage 1 pupils, for SEND across the country, and they also often exceeded phonics materials and training. I hope that that sort of the progress of children without SEND, so there has systematic, structured approach to teaching phonics been a really dramatic improvement. 321WH Dyslexia14 DECEMBER 2011 Dyslexia 322WH

The independent evaluation, which was carried out I understand that Dyslexia Action has written directly by the university of Manchester, demonstrated that to the JCQ to set out its concerns. It is right that the pupil attendance significantly improved. That picks up JCQ and Ofqual, as the independent body overseeing some of the other points that we were discussing a the examinations system, should respond to those and moment ago about additional needs sometimes being determine whether any further clarification of the confused with SEN. Often the issue is just about getting arrangements is required. I understand that they will be young people to attend school. For children taking part meeting with dyslexia charities and experts in the new in the Achievement for All programme, there was an year to explore those differences further. Ofqual has average increase in attendance of just over 10%. The assured me that pupils already granted extra time will evaluation also found significant improvements in behaviour, remain entitled to it on the basis of their existing including less bullying, stronger relationships between assessment. I hope that hon. Members will be reassured schools and parents and a greater awareness and focus on that point. on SEND. Some of the points that the hon. Member for Portsmouth Mrs Hodgson: On a point of clarity about the difference North discussed in relation to her Bill—parental between the old and the new criteria, is it the case that, engagement and the need to communicate better with under the old criteria, students had to have a low score parents—go partly at the heart of this. One of the key and that now it has to be below average? I am not sure facets of the Achievement for All programme is parental whether I heard the Minister correctly. engagement and enabling teachers to feel confident about having a conversation with parents about the progress of their child. The Government are investing Sarah Teather: There is no change in the criteria; £14 million to roll out the programme across the country, there is a change in the evidence that has to be provided. so that more children can benefit. The programme is What we are picking up on is how schools interpreted being delivered by a newly formed charity, Achievement the previous guidance, not necessarily the actual guidance for All 3As, chaired by Brian Lamb and supported by that was being provided. That raises some issues about PricewaterhouseCoopers. Schools can now see for how schools were interpreting the guidance and the themselves the evidence that the programme works, and freedom that they thought that it gave them. In fact, the we want more schools to come forward and sign up. guidance is the same, but slightly more rigorous evidence is being asked for to demonstrate that schools have met The evaluation highlighted some important lessons the guidance, and they are being asked to hold that on in how to improve the outcomes for pupils with SEND. record. The best thing is for Ofqual and the JCQ to Perhaps most crucially, there needs to be strong leadership meet dyslexia charities in the new year, as they will do, from the head teacher and senior leadership team, along with other experts in the area. They should make rather than simply relying on a SENCO to provide those points to the JCQ and Ofqual at that stage. leadership within a school, although that is important. Achievement for All 3As is currently engaged with The hon. Lady spoke briefly about the changes to 41 local authorities and 598 schools. We hope and spelling, punctuation and grammar in some GCSEs estimate that, overall, 1,000 schools will have signed up that were announced this afternoon. Hon. Members to the programme by April next year. may be aware that that was likely to happen and that we I want to turn to some of the specific concerns, would be restoring marks for spelling, punctuation and particularly on the Joint Council for Qualifications grammar in some key subjects that have extended pieces guidance, expressed by hon. Members. I understand of writing. During Ofqual’s consultation on the proposals, that there has been significant concern following recent it heard concerns from dyslexia organisations about the coverage about apparent changes to the availability of potential impact on pupils with special educational reasonable adjustments for dyslexic pupils. It is, of needs, particularly dyslexia. I understand that it will be course, absolutely vital for the fairness of an exam considering that as it decides how to roll out and system that reasonable adjustments are made where implement the proposal. needed. We have therefore been in touch with the JCQ However, during the consultation, there was also about the changes, and it maintains that there has been widespread support for ensuring accuracy within the no change to the circumstances in which a student is qualifications. People expect those with high grades in entitled to extra time for an exam. What has changed is GCSEs to be able to write accurately. The need to the type of evidence that is acceptable to demonstrate include an assessment of accuracy in spelling, punctuation that such extra time is needed. and grammar is key to restoring confidence in GCSEs The most recent edition of the relevant guidance as rigorous and valued qualifications. Ofqual has set the confirms that a school or college must consider and level at 5% of total marks for the GCSE, so that the maintain on record the evidence that the student has assessment of subject knowledge is not affected been assessed as having a below-average standardised disproportionately. There will be the possibility of partial score in an assessment of processing, reading or writing marks. It is not an all-or-nothing assessment and students speed. I emphasise that the previous guidance similarly will be able to achieve some or all of the marks depending required evidence of low standardised scores using on the extent of accuracy and how well they have assessments of processing speed, reading or writing. I conveyed meaning. In practice, there will be no blanket am afraid that we are picking up differences in practice, effect on the grades achieved by individuals, and the not differences in the guidance. Such difficulties have credibility of the exam and the grades achieved will be always been the basis on which extra time can be increased for all. Such changes, alongside some of the awarded to dyslexic pupils, and difficulties in phonological reforms to special educational needs provision, will give awareness—understanding and decoding the sounds of a real incentive to teach all pupils those core skills and words and verbal processing—were two of the prevent pupils with special educational needs from being characteristics of dyslexia identified by Sir Jim Rose. sidelined or aspirations being lowered. 323WH Dyslexia14 DECEMBER 2011 Dyslexia 324WH

Kelvin Hopkins: I recently chaired a meeting of the are off the subject of dyslexia now. We are running out all-party parliamentary group for social science and of time; but it is important to say that, if we are to have policy, at which we considered and had academic a society that is less divided, we must ensure that we presentations on social mobility. A major factor in poor provide education for those who do not have natural social mobility is the gulf in the use of language and advantages. education. Is the Minister saying that for the great mass of pupils, we will ensure that the standard at which they Sarah Teather: If we are to have a society that is less are able to use the language formally will be targeted divided, we must ensure that all children, regardless of and improved, or just that we will have a race to the top their background, are given the same benefits of that where the middle class will again have the advantage? sound education. Putting those marks, even 5%, back into qualifications will create an incentive to ensure that Sarah Teather: I agreed with the hon. Gentleman’s all children have that grounding. That is really important. first point. The second point seemed to bear no resemblance to the first. To raise aspirations for all is a good thing. Mrs Hodgson: To return to the subject of dyslexia To say that it is possible to achieve, regardless of and the dispensation that will be given for children with background, is really important. To believe in social dyslexia, the additional 5% can make the difference mobility and have it at the heart of educational policy, between an A and an A* for a very bright, dyslexic we have to have high aspirations for every child. pupil. Kelvin Hopkins: To clarify, if one just gives marks for punctuation, grammar and syntax, certain people from Sarah Teather: Ofqual will consider and take into certain backgrounds will have an even greater advantage account the concerns of dyslexic charities when it decides over people from other backgrounds. The gulf in our on implementation. The issue of reasonable adjustments society will widen unless extra effort is put in to ensure continues to remain. that everyone has a rigorous education in these methods. I should like to conclude now. I thought that we would not have many speakers. In fact, I seem to have Sarah Teather: I really do not accept that point at all. prattled on for so long—[Interruption.] Are there It is simply not good enough to say that, because 17 minutes left? I thought that we finished at 3.45 pm. I someone is from a certain background, they will not be have been racing to the end and thought that I only had able to learn how to spell or use language correctly. two minutes. In fact, we have loads of time. I might still That is exactly at the heart of what we are trying to conclude anyway, or I will not have any voice left. break. I have to say that, as an employer, I meet lots I am very grateful to hon. Members for their of graduates who do not have dyslexia who have not contributions. I hope that I have been able to allay some learnt how to use accurate punctuation and spelling. concerns. Dyslexia charities will no doubt make the Unfortunately, it is a continuous frustration, and I points that they made to the hon. Members who came sometimes wonder whether I am the best-paid proofreader to this debate to Ofqual and JCQ in the new year, but I in the country, given the amount of time I spend want to leave hon. Members with the assurance that we correcting grammar and punctuation in the documents are absolutely committed to reforming the support for that leave the Department—I probably should not say children with special educational needs and disability. that in Hansard. We will say much more in the new year, in response to the consultation. I am grateful to all hon. Members for Kelvin Hopkins: I agree entirely.The Minister’s experience their constructive input on this matter. and mine are the same, but those who had the rigorous experience that I had at school have an advantage over those who did not, even though they might have been 3.44 pm equal in ability in every other way. I appreciate that we Sitting suspended. 325WH 14 DECEMBER 2011 Farepak 326WH

Farepak Jessica Morden: I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention. She made her incredibly valuable point 4pm very well. She has done sterling work on the Farepak issue over the years, and I commend her for that. Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): Although I My Farepak savers in Alway will probably receive a am happy to have secured this debate, I am extremely total of about £315. I acknowledge the organisers of unhappy that I felt compelled to apply for it. I had the unfairpak website who keep the campaign going hoped that justice would have been done by now, and and are a source of information for Farepak victims in that Farepak customers and agents would have received a sometimes unclear process. at least some of their money back. However, five years from Farepak’s collapse, customers have not received a Where are we, five years on? Have the directors of penny of the compensation due to them, and have not Farepak been brought to book? No. The Government, seen justice done. Those responsible have not been held through the Insolvency Service, have finally applied to to account. To add insult to injury, on the fifth anniversary the courts to disqualify Sir Clive Thompson and eight of Farepak’s collapse, we have learned that not only has other directors associated with the collapse of Farepak. none of the £5.53 million compensation been paid, but Does the Minister not believe that the length of time the administrators, BDO, have admitted that the cost to that the directors have had to appeal while still holding date of winding up the company comes in at £8.2 million, office is incredible when innocent victims wait and wait? which is far more than the compensation owed. Perhaps he will tell us how long the Government expect the case to last? As a Farepak agent told me the other Tony Cunningham (Workington) (Lab): Is it worth day, if she had stolen something, she would have to pay reminding people that the company knew when it took for what she had done wrong, and it would not take five money from people that it was not able to provide the years. goods and services required, and that the people it defrauded could least afford to lose that money? Tony Cunningham: Let us be honest. If someone broke into a house and stole such an amount of money, Jessica Morden: I thank my hon. Friend for his they would find themselves in prison. They would be intervention. He makes an incredibly valid point. The jailed, never mind paying compensation, or justice. people involved had modest incomes, and could least They would find themselves in prison, and that is where afford to lose that money. They ended up paying twice they should be. for Christmas, or borrowing money. The whole matter was a scandal, and we are still no clearer about when it will be resolved. Farepak victims were ripped off twice: Jessica Morden: I thank my hon. Friend for his once when the company collapsed, and secondly by an intervention, which was well made. Many victims have establishment that has not protected them. called for Sir Clive Thompson to have his knighthood removed if he loses the case, and perhaps the Minister The history of Farepak’s collapse is well documented, will also address that point. and has been the subject of debates in the House, often initiated by Anne Snelgrove, the former Member for A survey posted on Twitter and the Farepak victims Swindon South, whom I applaud for her unstinting committee Facebook page reveals what Farepak victims work in standing up for Farepak customers and employees. think: 95% of the respondents thought that the liquidators As this is only a half-hour debate, I will not rehearse the had taken too long, and should have finished by now; history, except to say that Farepak went bust on 13 October 79% did not think that there are enough regulations to 2006, and the result was that the Christmas savings of protect consumers from anything like the Farepak collapse around 120,000 people, in total about £38 million, were happening again and 95% thought that all Christmas apparently lost. The money seemed to have been siphoned savings schemes should be tightly regulated. Many Farepak off to help to combat the debts of the parent company, customers are upset about how the administrators, BDO, European Home Retail but as my hon. Friend said, have handled the liquidation process. BDO struck an Farepak continued to collect money even when it knew agreement with some of the ex-directors of Farepak to that it had problems. pay a total of £4 million in compensation, which is about 15p per pound owed. Not only are Farepak My inspiration for the debate is my constituent Deborah victims angry, as they should be, at receiving only 15p in Harvey, who was a Farepak agent. The word tenacious the pound, they find it deeply unfair that as part of the does not come anywhere near doing her justice. Deb deal the directors accept no liability for Farepak going was an agent in Alway in Newport, and encouraged bust. Will the Minister say whether that is common eight friends to spread the cost of Christmas by saving practice? with Farepak with her. Like many agents, she was not motivated by self-interest; she was driven by wanting to I am aware that some agents and customers received see justice for the friends who saved with her because some money back in 2009 under a court order. That was they knew her. They are owed a total of £2,100, and if a repayment to customers who had made payments as they ever recoup any money, they will probably receive the company collapsed and which Farepak tried to put just £315. into trust accounts. Customers received some compensation from a response fund just after the company went bust, Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): My but as yet no customer has received any money via the constituent, Jean McLardy, has given me a Farepak administrators. BDO will argue that the reason is that it customer payment card that belonged to her mother, is still chasing, and that it is standard practice for who has passed away. It looks identical to those of administrators not to pay out any dividend until all credit union savings schemes, and it is clear that the avenues have been exhausted. However, as widely reported people who put money away every week thought it was in the news last month, BDO has so far cost in excess of in a savings club. £8.2 million, which includes, for example, £50,000 for 327WH Farepak14 DECEMBER 2011 Farepak 328WH

[Jessica Morden] Mr Buckland: The hon. Lady has come to the fundamental point. Five years ago, a loophole was public relations work. That is an eye-watering sum, identified. Because of the nature of the business, unbeknown especially when BDO has managed to obtain only to all the clients and customers who took part in it, it is £5.5 million back for the victims. So far, the process not in law a financial service. Why is that loophole still hardly seems fair. there five long years on? I understand that there is a possibility that ex-customers could receive less than 15p in the pound. If the Jessica Morden: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that administrators fail to recoup any more money from intervention. He goes precisely to the crux of the issue: ongoing operations, they will take their costs from the self-regulation is simply not acceptable. We need statutory moneys already recouped. I accept that the ongoing guidance. We must compel companies to protect their actions, if successful, could result in ex-customers receiving customers’ money. Can the Minister assure us that the more money, but either way the administrators will Government will do that? If not, can he explain the accrue more and more costs, making customers even reasons why, especially as just today we have seen that more resentful. banks are to be compelled to display prominent signs telling customers that their savings are protected up to £85,000. What should we do in this case? Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): I am grateful to my hon. Friend for securing this important debate. Does she agree that some of the practices that she Katy Clark: Does my hon. Friend agree that one of describes are at best ethically questionable and, looking the problems highlighted is that the victims have been at them more strategically in terms of how victims have treated as unsecured creditors, so they are right at the been affected, downright wrong? bottom of the pile? The Office of Fair Trading report, which was published in December 2006 after Farepak collapsed, highlighted the problems with prepayments Jessica Morden: I thank my hon. Friend for her for funerals, holidays and mail order, but this case goes intervention. I agree that the matter is downright wrong, way beyond that. Has my hon. Friend had an opportunity and I hope that the Government will act. to look at the scale of the problem? I would like the Minister to say whether he believes that the insolvency process is fit for purpose in dealing Jessica Morden: My hon. Friend is exactly right. with the aftermath of cases such as Farepak. Should There are a whole range of prepayment schemes. She there not be a limit on how much administrators can mentioned prepayment for funerals, which is a huge demand—perhaps a percentage of the total amount issue that I shall address later. accrued? I have spoken to Farepak victims and agents, and the process is incomprehensible from the outside. Farepak customers were on modest incomes, and in Victims need to know what is going on, and why it is October 2006 their Christmas was destroyed. All their taking so long. carefully saved money disappeared overnight. These are people who did the right thing. They planned how they were going to pay for Christmas, they worked hard all Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): I am year round, they made their monthly payments and pleased that the hon. Lady secured this debate and that Christmas was going to be sorted. They are predominantly she raised the point about transparency, because there women managing household finances to provide for are real concerns about creditors’ representation, and their families. They were doing what we ask people to precisely what is going on with BDO. There is a dearth do. When Farepak went bust, Christmas was ruined for of information, and it is not good enough to rely on many. They were on modest incomes and could not get civil proceedings as a cloak to prevent victims from money out of the bank to cover the loss. being told what is going on. The Government owe it to Farepak victims to do the right thing. Farepak is a special case and the Government Jessica Morden: The hon. Gentleman is exactly right. should step in and help. We did it for Equitable Life Although my constituent has been incredibly tenacious, victims; quite rightly, the Government are stepping in to from her point of view it has been very difficult to get the tune of £500 million for them this year. Farepak any information out of the administrators, apart from victims are owed around £38 million. In the same way messages posted on the website. as we did with the banks, we should send the right signal to savers on modest incomes that their money is The average amount of time taken for a liquidation safe in the event of bankruptcy. process to finish is about two and a half years, so we can completely understand the sheer anger, frustration and, frankly, scepticism of the ex-customers of Farepak over Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): I commend the administrator BDO and its motives. Could this ever the hon. Lady for securing the debate. It is important happen again? Following the collapse of Farepak, the that people are very careful about putting their money Christmas Prepayment Association was set up. On the in schemes of this kind after the experience of Farepak. face of it, the guidelines issued by the CPA seem to Before putting in their money, they should look for firm remedy many of the issues that arose. However, the guarantees such as the banks must now have. Money is association has a major flaw: it is self-regulating. precious when it is from a hard-earned small income. Conceivably, a Christmas hamper company could be set up tomorrow and not be required to follow the CPA Jessica Morden: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for guidelines. This is surely not acceptable, given what has that intervention. Obviously, that is where the CPA and happened. self-regulation come in. Many of the Farepak victims 329WH Farepak14 DECEMBER 2011 Farepak 330WH that I have spoken to saved with friends because they terms of the money received by the people concerned, it trusted them. We must address the whole issue in the continues under this Government. However, neither industry. Government could have intervened in the conduct of a Despite all that has happened to her and her friends, particular insolvency, as that remains subject, as hon. the priority of my constituent, Mrs Deborah Harvey, is Members will know, to the overall supervision of the to ensure that the situation never happens again. On court. Nevertheless, I can give some background as to behalf of her and many others, I say to the Minister where the Government stand at the moment. that Farepak victims want justice, adequate compensation, On the issue that was raised about the directors, enhanced regulation for all firms engaged in prepayment concern was rightly expressed about their position and schemes, and key figures in Farepak to be held accountable their living up to their responsibilities. They are the for what they did. That is how we shall ensure that people who controlled the company. The investigation decent people doing the right thing never again lose out that took place was complex. As the hon. Member for in that way. Newport East mentioned, it resulted in an application by the Business Secretary, in the High Court of Justice 4.14 pm on 26 January this year, for disqualification orders to be made against the directors. It was made in the public The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong interest on the ground that the conduct of each director Learning (Mr John Hayes): It is a great pleasure to be makes him or her unfit to be concerned in the management able to respond to this debate, Mr Weir, and I am of a company. It is, of course, a legal application. None grateful to the hon. Member for Newport East (Jessica the less, the fact that we made it reflects the Government’s Morden) for bringing the matter to our attention. It is a view that this is a matter of profound concern. The matter of profound concern to the people involved. I individuals must be held responsible. As a result, think I reflect the Government’s perspective in adding opportunities to serve in a similar or indeed any business my view that this was completely unacceptable. Many capacity should be limited. To say more about that at vulnerable people were associated with it and it has this stage would probably be improper, but the message taken far too long to sort out. The steps taken to try to that I have broadcast makes clear my views and those of resolve it were far slower than both the people detrimentally the Government. affected and any reasonable observer might have anticipated, so I am extremely sympathetic to the case that the hon. Jessica Morden: Does the Minister have any idea how Lady has made and to the circumstances of the people long the process will take, and will he address the issue who were so badly affected. It is understandable that of the knighthood if the person in question is found questions of the kind that she has posed are raised guilty? when so many people are affected. The insolvency is particularly sad, coming around a savings scheme—a Mr Hayes: That is a fair question, but since the club, if you like—that was tied to Christmas, as we now matter is now part of a legal process it is difficult for me approach Christmas some years later. This is a poignant to give a definitive answer. It would not, however, be subject, and the emotions evident in the contributions unreasonable for my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston made so far reflect the character of the matter with and Surbiton (Mr Davey), who is the Minister responsible which we are dealing. for such matters, to respond directly to the hon. Lady, and I will ask him to do just that. I am not the Minister Tony Cunningham: Does the Minister accept that responsible for this particular matter, although I am what makes the situation even worse—it is bad enough happy to act as a conduit to the person who is. On such that it is Christmas and so on—is that the agents who occasions when I am standing in for a Minister, it is my were taking the money week after week were taking it habit to make it clear to them that they have a responsibility from friends? The responsibility and the guilt that they to hon. Members and to the Chamber. I am more than feel, because they have let down their friends, are enormous. happy to pass on the fact that I would like my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton, in so Mr Hayes: Yes, that is true. It is a good point. The far as he can, to answer that question. hon. Gentleman made that point in an earlier intervention in a different form, and he is right. We think of the Mr Buckland: In the spirit of that constructive approach, victims as the people whose money was contributed and may I ask the Minister the question posited by the hon. lost, but the wider effect of the kind he described is also Member for Workington (Tony Cunningham) about very sad, because people were acting in good faith, the criminal aspect of this case? Was a proper investigation unaware of the likely consequences of the role that they ever carried out by the Serious Fraud Office or the played until it was too late to do anything about it. The Crown Prosecution Service into allegations of fraudulent hon. Gentleman is right to identify the communal effect trading? It certainly seems to me, and to many others, that it had on communities that are often tight-knit and that that should have been looked into at the time. If it where trust matters. This is a poignant matter that was not looked into, why was that? understandably stimulates heartfelt sentiments. I will try to deal factually with the circumstances, but it is Mr Hayes: I will try to deal in my remarks with some hard to do that in the context, about which we feel of the actions that were taken, and if I do not cover that deeply. point I will come back to my hon. Friend on the matter. The matter started before we came to office, but it is I would like to make some progress to describe what not a partisan matter. Governments need to express a actions have been taken, although I am mindful of that view and take appropriate action. The case began under intervention and do not seek to avoid it. I will try to the previous Government and, of course, because it has deal with it during my remarks, but if I cannot, I will not yet been satisfactorily drawn to a conclusion in subsequently reply to my hon. Friend directly. 331WH Farepak14 DECEMBER 2011 Farepak 332WH

Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): Will the Minister aims to safeguard consumer interests and raise standards give way? in markets, lists the protection of prepayments as one of its criteria. The OFT has approved 10 codes so far, and Mr Hayes: I will give way briefly, but I want to make we are currently consulting on how consumer codes will some progress because I am short on time. operate in future, in light of proposals for institutional reform for those bodies that are currently responsible Nick Smith: It is great that the Minister has shown for consumer and competition policy. Those measures such sympathy for the victims of this injustice. Such should help savers to avoid losing prepaid moneys in schemes take place up and down the valleys in south future. Wales, and many members of my family have participated in them in the past. I would like to press the Minister on On the issue of insolvency, it is clearly a matter of the matter of alleged fraud. Will he let us know what he regret that more money is not available for distribution, is going to say on the matter sooner rather than later, so and I understand the concerns mentioned by the hon. that we can quiz him further? People are very angry. Member for Newport East, and others, about the expenses incurred in dealing with liquidation—I think she described Mr Hayes: When I have made some progress, if I have the figure as “eye watering,” and I do not disagree. not satisfactorily covered that matter I give a commitment Farepak is clearly no ordinary insolvency because it is that either I or the Minister responsible will respond so complex. It was complex from the start and involved properly and as far as we can within the legal constraints an exceptionally large number of customers and agents— that I have set out. I am aware of the hon. Members more than 116,000—and the identities of many of who have participated in this debate, and of those who those were initially unknown. Considerable work was have a particular interest in the area. I am not avoiding therefore involved in identifying creditors and substantiating the issue; it is a fair question and I will ensure that it their claims. gets a fair answer from the Government. I am not in the The creditors’ committee, which represents those who business of avoiding difficult subjects, particularly ones have lost money, has received regular detailed reports such as this that unite the whole House in its view of on the progress of the liquidation and approved the what is and is not appropriate. actions of the liquidators. I understand that the liquidators In the short time that we have available for this have undertaken various investigations in order to increase important debate, let me make some progress so that I asset realisations, including action that resulted in £4 million can deal with some of the points raised. I want to set being recovered from the directors of the company. I out the steps that we have taken to avoid such things also understand that the liquidators are currently working happening in the future. As the hon. Member for Newport to bring proceedings against third parties, with the East said, the main companies in the hamper industry, intention of increasing the pot of money available to through the Christmas Prepayment Association, introduced creditors. Given the nature of such an action, the liquidators new safeguards for consumers’ money in the form of say that it is not possible to determine when moneys will independently controlled, ring-fenced trust accounts. I be paid to creditors. As a result of this debate, however, know that the hon. Lady is doubtful about the self- I will make further inquiries, and ask the Minister regulation of the industry, but however imperfect, those responsible to report back to hon. Members about the safeguards represent significant progress for an industry anticipated time scale, in so far as he reasonably can. that has, quite frankly, faced something of a shake-out following the Farepak affair. Relatively few businesses The liquidators point out that the work they have are now involved in that industry, and their coming undertaken over the years has resulted in the possible together in the way that I have described represents amount payable to creditors increasing from 5p to significant progress. 15p in the pound. I accept that 15p may not be perceived There are various other Christmas saving accounts, as sufficient, but as the hon. Lady knows, it has substantially such as clubs run by supermarkets, large retailers, local increased from the original estimate. The liquidators shops, social clubs, pubs and workplaces, and risks are have also stressed that the creditors’ committee can, at always associated with any business of that kind. They any time, instruct them to stop their activities and pay are bigger and certainly more widespread than the creditors from the funds already secured. They have principal companies that most of us know about. Local also indicated that due to the sheer number of creditors, schemes exist throughout the country, and have done so the process of paying a dividend will be very expensive. throughout my lifetime if not considerably before. I They therefore want to ensure that as far as possible, all remember my mother being part of a small, local Christmas money that can be recovered is received before a payment saving club when I was a child, and it is hard to regulate to creditors is made. The aim is to get the amount every such arrangement. None the less, the Office of returned per pound to the highest possible level before Fair Trading has produced a leaflet entitled “Save Xmas”—I we start the process of paying the creditors. Otherwise, am sorry it is not “Save Christmas”—which is a quick we will add to the administrative costs associated with guide to paying for Christmas. The leaflet lists various the process, and the balance between what that costs schemes and indicates whether there is any protection and the benefit people receive will be even further out of should they go bust. It is important that people who put kilter. their money into such schemes know where they stand I do, however, believe that the figure of £8.2 million, at the outset, because that has not always been the case in contrast with the current dividend prospect of in the past. £5.5 million, causes considerable concern. I know that The Money Advice Service provides advice on its the hon. Lady shares my concern about the level of fees, website about what protection is offered for various and she will know that the Government have considered ways of saving money, and in addition, the Office of the issue and what should be done in the future. I hope Fair Trading’s consumer codes approval scheme, which that what I have said today will provide some assurance 333WH Farepak 14 DECEMBER 2011 334WH that I, and other Ministers, believe that we cannot leave Alcohol Taxation the situation as it is in terms of how such matters are handled. In April 2010 new provisions came into force for 4.30 pm insolvencies commencing after that date, giving creditors Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): I have watched additional powers to obtain information about the fees many of my former patients die as a result of alcohol; and expenses charged by insolvency practitioners. The there is nothing like witnessing the end of the journey percentage of creditors required to bring a challenge in to focus one’s attention on the need to prevent people court was reduced from 25% to 10%, and the issue of from becoming harmful drinkers in the first place. We fees charged by insolvency practitioners was considered are witnessing an unprecedented rise in hospital admissions by the OFT in a report published in June 2010. and deaths from alcohol-related liver disease. Alcohol is Earlier this year, my hon. Friend the Member for directly responsible for more than 6,500 deaths and Kingston and Surbiton, the Minister with responsibility more than 1 million hospital admissions a year. It is the for issues of insolvency, issued a consultation on a set single largest cause of mortality in young people, accounting of proposed reforms to the regulation of insolvency for one in four deaths among 15 to 24-year-olds—far practitioners, including how practitioners deal with more than die as a result of knife crime. There are now complaints. Our aim is to ensure transparency and 1.6 million dependent drinkers in England alone. accountability and to improve confidence in the insolvency However, the point about alcohol is that it does not process. just affect the drinkers themselves; it has a devastating This has been a useful discussion on an important effect on their families, especially children, and on subject. I have had little time to sum up the debate, but I entire communities. There are 705,000 children living take this issue seriously, just as the Government take with a parent who is a dependent drinker. Parental seriously the whole business of dealing with insolvency. alcohol abuse is a factor in half of child protection We will take steps to ensure that the process is fair, cases. reasonable and timely, and I will ask my hon. Friend the The full costs are hard to quantify, but the bill runs to Member for Kingston and Surbiton to come back to at least £20 billion a year. Members on any specific points that I have not had the chance to cover, and make the position clear. Mr Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab): The hon. Lady will know that I chaired the Select Committee on Health in the previous Parliament. We conducted an inquiry into alcohol, and it was the first time in many decades that a Select Committee had done that. We took evidence that the cost to the NHS could be as high as £55 billion a year. The situation is similar to that with tobacco: in the end, no one really knows the cost of the use of these products.

Dr Wollaston: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that intervention. He is absolutely right. The study to which he refers took into account the reduced quality of life years associated with alcohol, which are extremely difficult to quantify. In three years’ time, the Government will be judged not just on the economy, but on other tangible markers, such as violent crime, the prison population, health inequalities—even markers such as teenage pregnancy. It is hard to think of a social marker that is not affected by alcohol. However, there are other compelling reasons for taking action. At a time of squeezed police budgets and when the NHS needs to find efficiency savings of £20 billion, we should not be pouring that money down the drain because of the problems that this country has with alcohol. About half the offenders in some prisons are jailed for an offence in which alcohol played a significant role. The relationship between crime and alcohol is not linear, but the positive association between violent crime and alcohol is compelling. There is a wealth of evidence to link alcohol price increases and reduced rates of homicide, rape, robbery, assault, motor vehicle theft and domestic violence.

Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. In terms of alcohol price increases having the effect that she has just outlined, does she agree that one easy, fast 335WH Alcohol Taxation14 DECEMBER 2011 Alcohol Taxation 336WH

[Brandon Lewis] Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. I declare and effective route that the Government could take to an interest as chairman of the all-party beer group. I stop under-priced and low-priced alcohol being sold agree with her about the need for the Government to would be to go ahead with duty stamping on beer and take action. Does she agree with me on this point? wine to ensure that alcohol is sold at the right price and, Twenty years ago, the price in a supermarket and the equally, to save the Government up to £1 billion a year price in a pub were much the same at about 75p a pint. of revenue that is currently lost through the tax being Today, a pint costs £3.10, £3.20 or £3.30 in a pub, avoided? whereas in a supermarket it remains at about 70p or 80p. That has encouraged people to drink more and Dr Wollaston: That is one of the options. I would like more at home and discouraged them from drinking in a to outline an alternative, but I certainly thank my hon. safe, supervised environment such as the community Friend for that intervention. pub that is at the heart of many of our towns and villages. Numerous studies around the world have shown public health benefits as a result of price increases and taxation Dr Wollaston: I thank my hon. Friend: he makes an policies, so is it not time for some evidence-based politics? excellent point about the decline in rural pubs and why The trouble is that there is no single, simple solution. any action that the Minister takes has to take into We know that there are other factors in addition to account the impact on rural pubs and, of course, town price: availability, our drinking culture and marketing. pubs. Those are all key factors, but today’s debate is about taxation, so I will focus entirely on price, not because Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): I congratulate the others do not matter, but because they are not my hon. Friend on securing the debate. I have to declare within the remit of the Treasury. an interest. I worked behind the bar in one of my local pubs on a recent Friday evening, celebrating British It is worth pointing out that most health experts feel beer week. I am also a member of the all-party beer that changing pricing is the most effective way of achieving group. I echo the comments made by my hon. Friend results. I draw the attention of my hon. Friend the the Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths). In a pub, Minister to the letter in today’s edition of The Daily we have a safe environment; we have a landlord who is Telegraph signed by 19 organisations. I know that the licensed. That encourages responsible drinking. The Treasury is aware of the costs to our economy of pub I worked in—the Wills O’Nats in Meltham—was a dependent drinkers and binge drinking, so I will not ask family environment. Young people were there, drinking my hon. Friend to respond in detail on those points. As soft drinks until early in the evening. Does my hon. disposable incomes have fallen, so too has the overall Friend agree that any taxation put in place by the consumption of alcohol, but that comes on the back of Government should not just be about revenue streams, decades of steady increases. Alcohol remains about but should encourage responsible drinking in the 44% more affordable than it was in 1980. community pub environment? In 2010, a total of 48.4 billion units of alcohol were sold in the UK. Of those, 31.8 billion units—about two Dr Wollaston: I absolutely agree. The point is that in thirds; the great and increasing majority—were sold by the UK harmful drinkers buy 15 times more alcohol the off-trade. The widening gap between the price of than moderate drinkers, yet they pay 40% less per unit. on-licence and off-licence alcohol is becoming far more Those are the groups that are most influenced by pricing. significant and is fuelling the rise in home drinking. That is why I agree with my hon. Friends that the Harms are not going down as we might expect as a problem does not come from pubs. result of the small fall in overall consumption, because I did have a prop for the debate. Last weekend, my of the low-price deals that are still very widely available researcher was able to access 2 litres of own-brand cider in supermarkets, garages and convenience stores pretty from Asda for £1.48, which worked out at just 18p a much around the clock. unit. With a four-pack of bitter for 68p, the price was just 17p a unit. I particularly objected to the labelling. It Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): I congratulate my said, “Asda Smart Price”. I put it to hon. Members that hon. Friend on obtaining the debate. The north-east there is nothing smart about charging 68p for four units has one of the worst rates of liver disease: we have seen of alcohol. That would send a woman well over the safe an increase of 400% since 2002. I accept entirely the limit for a single day for just 68p. point that she makes about robust regulation in terms of minimum pricing, but does she accept that the local Mike Wood (Batley and Spen) (Lab): I, too, congratulate supermarkets in our individual constituencies can make the hon. Lady on securing the debate. It is significant a specific difference on the pricing and availability of that Asda is the supermarket she cited, because it is seen alcohol and the way in which it is presented to our as the one supermarket that has so far taken a lead in constituents? trying to get to the bottom of two-for-one offers and the like. If Asda is still behaving as badly as that, what can we expect from the others? Dr Wollaston: I absolutely agree. Most of the alcohol- related carnage is caused by young binge drinkers and Dr Wollaston: Asda has acquired a veneer of by heavy or dependent drinkers, so the issue is not only respectability by signing up to the new responsibility about the availability of alcohol in outlets throughout deal, but I would ask whether it is killing its customers the country. The harm is not going down, because those with such pricing. Asda has liked to boast of its responsible groups are the ones that are most attracted by the approach in removing low-price offers from its foyers, low-price deals. but I put it to Asda that those who conduct proxy sales 337WH Alcohol Taxation14 DECEMBER 2011 Alcohol Taxation 338WH on behalf of teenage binge drinkers have no trouble in affects the poorest and most vulnerable in our society, locating the cider at the back of the store. It is the and is a significant contributor to health inequality. A ultra-low pricing that is causing the carnage. report on the Department’s behalf from September I recognise that the Government are trying to introduce 2011, titled “Narrowing the health inequalities gap”, a floor price for alcohol that will include duty and VAT. makes it quite clear that if it were not for alcohol-related The trouble is that the policy will not go far enough to deaths, and if we had had an effective policy, the objective solve the problem, as it will still allow white cider to be to narrow the overall life expectancy gaps for the spearhead sold at below 10p a unit. It will establish the principle of local authority areas—the most deprived areas in our minimum pricing without the prospect of delivering country— any meaningful results. Will the Minister set out what “would…certainly have been achieved for males; and would be responses she has received from public health experts well on the way to being achieved for females.” on that point? All the public health advice that I have The evidence is not just that low-income groups suffer seen is entirely pessimistic. The Daily Telegraph pointed the most health harms, but that they suffer the most out today that the policy will catch only one in 4,000 of harms as a result of violence in their communities. the drinks currently being sold and will do nothing to If we look at the evidence from some shopping save lives. basket data published in a university of Sheffield study, Andrew Griffiths: Does my hon. Friend agree that it we can see that for was this Government who introduced, for the first time, “a 50p minimum price, a harmful drinker will spend on average a ban on below-cost selling? That was an important line an extra £163 per year whilst the equivalent spending increase for in the sand—the first time that a Government have said a moderate drinker is £12.” that selling booze too cheaply is a bad thing. The In other words, the published data state that such a question now is, how cheap? policy will not penalise low-income moderate drinkers. Does my hon. Friend share my concern that the The deprived spearhead communities have the most current tax system seems to encourage people to drink to gain from an effective alcohol policy. A minimum or ever stronger and stronger drinks? The tax system floor price can be set that is not regressive and is encourages the strength of wine to increase dramatically, affordable for anyone who is not drinking at hazardous and the drink of choice of young people is now vodka. levels. As one of my correspondents pointed out: “If you can’t afford 50p per unit it is a good sign that you are Dr Wollaston: I thank my hon. Friend for making drinking too much.” that point. We need to show what minimum pricing The charge is often made that without an increase in means in practice if we set a reasonable price. If we set a duty the profits will go to the drinks industry and minimum price of around 45p a unit, as the Scottish retailers, not the Treasury. I can understand that, but if Government are planning to do, in a Bill introduced at we can introduce windfall taxes on energy companies, the end of October, it would mean that a bottle of why not have windfall taxes on supermarkets that profit whisky containing 28 units could not be sold below from windfall gains? With more than 31 billion units £12.60, a bottle of wine containing 10 units could not sold in the off-trade, why not even consider a health levy cost less than £4.50, and a pint of beer with two units on unopened bottles, perhaps of between 5p and 10p a could not cost less than 90p. Such prices would not suck unit, targeting just the off-trade? That would be more all the fun from a night out; in fact, they would not raise than enough to allow for decent treatment programmes. the price of alcohol in the on-trade at all. Evidence shows that for every pound we invest in such programmes, we save £5 in wider benefits to the economy Mr Barron: Will the hon. Lady give way? because of reduced harms. Dr Wollaston: May I make a little progress? The case against a minimum price of between 45p and 50p a unit Guy Opperman: Does my hon. Friend think that it may hang on the loss of income to the Treasury. Alcohol would be a good idea to introduce an alcohol Act duty raised £9.5 billion in 2010-11, which is equivalent similar to that which exists in Scotland? to 1.7% of total Government revenue. There is a certain illogicality in the bands set by the European Union, so Dr Wollaston: I could not agree more. to a certain extent, as my hon. Friend the Member for Finally—I know that other Members would like to Burton (Andrew Griffiths) said, there is great come in—there are those who argue that a minimum encouragement towards higher strength products. price is illegal under EU law. If so, why are the Scottish The amount received by the Treasury is the same Government so confident that it is not? I draw the whether a product is sold in a pub or a supermarket. Minister’s attention to a reply given by Mr Dalli on VAT is levied on top, but there are no specific data on behalf of the European Commission to a question put where and on what products it is levied. Will the Minister by an MEP on that point. The bones of the reply are set out estimates of the loss of income that would arise that from the introduction of a minimum unit price of “the Commission fully shares with the Honourable Member the between 45p and 50p? Will she also set that against the conviction that there are strong public health reasons for the EU benefits in estimated savings to the Home Office, the to tackle alcohol-related harm including minimum pricing measures.” Department of Health and the Ministry of Justice that Will the Minister set out today whether there have would result from a reduction in alcohol-related harms? been discussions with the Scottish Executive on the The Department of Health leads on alcohol policy. It matter? Will she also comment on what steps the Treasury has stated repeatedly that it does not wish to disadvantage will take to tackle supermarkets’ plans to undermine moderate drinkers on a low income. However, it has Scotland’s decisive action to tackle the carnage caused failed to point out that harmful drinking disproportionately by alcohol? Tesco recently e-mailed Scottish customers 339WH Alcohol Taxation14 DECEMBER 2011 Alcohol Taxation 340WH

[Dr Wollaston] street. Is that the picture of Britain that we want to send to the rest of the world in our Olympic year? It really is to reassure them that they will still be able to access the picture that other people are starting to have of cut-price deals after the Act is in force, as the products Britain, and it is completely preventable. We just need will be delivered from across the border. Will the Minister bold action from the Government. Otherwise, we are join me in condemning that e-mail from Tesco? abandoning another generation of young people. There Yesterday, the Select Committee on Health returned is no such thing as a free lunch and equally no such from a visit to Carlisle, and it is clear that the city is thing as a cheap drink. We are all cross-subsidising expecting an increase in cross-border sales. It would cheap deals in supermarkets by paying extra for our prefer to see us use an evidence-based policy to protect groceries and other products. There is no such thing as a the north-west, which has suffered from the devastating cheap drink: we are all paying a heavy price. impact of alcohol. There have been many calls for effective minimum pricing and numerous models show 4.51 pm the amount of lives and money saved, so I do not want The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Miss Chloe to go over them in detail, other than to point out again Smith): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for that a 50p minimum price could save nearly 10,000 lives Totnes (Dr Wollaston) on securing the debate. I recognise a year. that, as a general practitioner, she can draw on direct We have shown that Britain is prepared to stand our experience on dealing with the adverse effects of alcohol ground in the EU when it comes to the City of London. on health. I also acknowledge her reference to the Now is the time to put the lives of our young people contribution in The Daily Telegraph today from other ahead of the theoretical risk of a legal challenge. A professionals in the field. precedent exists in the loi Evin, which the French introduced I can assure all hon. Members who have spoken—it is to protect children from the effects of alcohol marketing a pleasure to hear so many—that not only GPs have in France. It has been challenged repeatedly by the such concerns about the effect of alcohol on the welfare industry in the EU’s courts, but it was upheld on the and well-being of society; that concern is shared by the grounds of the health benefits. I fully agree with that. Government. It is clear that alcohol abuse causes serious Mr Barron: I agree with the hon. Lady regarding unit harm to health and leads to considerable costs to the pricing, as did the Select Committee. One issue that NHS and that many towns and cities are affected by caught my ear in her presentation is that of spirits. For alcohol-related violence and crime, as my hon. Friend 10 years, I have sat in Budget speeches in the House of has said. Like her, of course I abhor behaviour such as Commons Chamber, when everyone cheered when the that in the example on which she finished her speech. duty on spirits never went up. Then a £6 bottle of vodka For all those reasons, the coalition Government are became the choice for binge drinking. That is one of the committed to tackling problem drinking across a range lessons that the Treasury should learn. of fronts. I shall set out a few points on which action has already been taken. I shall try to do so quickly, to Dr Wollaston: I could not agree more. Pricing plays, get on to minimum unit pricing, as my hon. Friend has and has played, a role in the massive increase in the requested. I will begin by trying to tackle a couple of drinking of vodka, particularly by young women. points made by other hon. Members. Irresponsible There are other ways of levelling the playing field, if drinkers, rather than responsible drinkers in pubs and the Treasury wants more income after minimum pricing. other places of safety, are the problem. I know that the Minister is aware of the paper written I shall try to tackle a couple of the specific questions. by Dr Nick Sheron in which he argued that we could If I do not do get there in time, I hope that my hon. vary VAT between the on and off-trades to achieve Friend will forgive me if I write to her on a couple of minimum pricing, without damaging our pubs. I accept points. With regard to measures that the Government that the Treasury is convinced that that would be illegal have already taken, I hope that they will demonstrate under EU law. That is just another example of the and reassure her that the Government are committed to completely illogical rules by which alcohol duty is set an evidence-based approach. I specifically reassure her from across the channel, and is a prime example of the of that today. It is, of course, a subject on which data intrusive and frustrating way so much of our legislation speak clearly. It is a complex subject that requires much is controlled by the EU. analysis of evidence. I finish by asking the Minister not to commit to a I shall start that process with what the Government floor price that will be meaningless. Will she assure the have done. My hon. Friend will know that the Treasury House that she will meet her Scottish counterparts to published the review of alcohol taxation in November discuss why they are convinced that it is legal to introduce 2010, which among other things identified a problem a realistic minimum price for alcohol? Can she assure with so-called super-strength lagers, about which others me that the Government will look at the consistent and have spoken today. The Government confirmed in the evidence-based advice from health experts on minimum 2011 Budget that action would be taken to discourage pricing, and at least ensure that supermarkets south of consumption of those drinks, introducing two new the border do not undermine what is happening in additional duties, which should help. There are also Scotland? Can she also assure me that the Treasury targeted approaches on other types of drink—for example, recognises that alcohol is not an ordinary commodity, a minimum juice content for products that qualify as but a psychoactive, teratogenic carcinogen, which also cider. I note my hon. Friend’s point about ciders. happens to be addictive? I finish with a story from one of my constituents, Andrew Griffiths: The Minister has clearly got up to who spoke to me after trying to stop a drunken lout speed quickly on her brief. With regard to cider, does urinating on a semi-conscious vulnerable woman in the she agree that it seems completely incongruous that the 341WH Alcohol Taxation14 DECEMBER 2011 Alcohol Taxation 342WH

4% duty paid on a pint of beer is twice that paid on those. If an indirect tax were introduced, it would be cider—2%—at exactly the same strength? difficult to distinguish between points of sale. I am happy to come back to hon. Members in more detail on Miss Smith: I am aware of that specific point, and I why that is difficult, but it is not as straightforward as am sure that my hon. Friend and his colleagues will be saying that we want to hit supermarkets and not pubs; it even more aware of that tonight at the all-party is about how to set up an indirect tax. parliamentary beer group’s Christmas party, if I have On that note, as hon. Members will have heard in that correct. If he will forgive me, I will focus on other debates, it is difficult to find ways to vary VAT on minimum unit pricing in this debate, to deal with points similar products. Again, I am happy to come back with raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes. I shall more detail on that if required. On price distortion and briefly note that she raised the wider impacts of alcohol. perhaps distasteful practices at the border, the UK Of course, it is not just the duty system that is important. Government will look into that closely. My hon. Friend I direct her to the Police Reform and Social Responsibility the Member for Totnes asked whether we will discuss Act 2011, which I hope will help with the late-night matters with the Scottish Government. We will be watching economy. To make an important point, I direct her to a the situation extremely closely in the service of seeing forthcoming paper from the Department of Health, what works and what we can assess among these complex which, with the Home Office, is responsible for this policy and legal issues. area, that will consider the wider social and health impacts of alcohol. I have no doubt that she will look at I will go briefly to a couple of other questions that that in some detail. my hon. Friend asked me: have we received representations from public health representatives on the duty plus VAT measure? I regard that measure as a starting point, as a Guy Opperman: A simple question: when assessing first step. She rightly notes that it introduces a principle taxation in the alcohol strategy document, working and a starting point. Treasury officials are very closely with the Department of Health, will there be a difference involved in discussing such matters with the Department in the views on taxing supermarket sales compared with of Health and, as I have already mentioned, the Home the pubs that we all cherish and that are so affected by Office, which is also responsible in part for alcohol. I this? hope that reassures her. Miss Smith: If my hon. Friend will allow me to come We have mentioned supermarkets. I shall briefly turn to that, I shall attempt now briefly to answer a number to whether a windfall profit tax could be introduced as of the questions asked. First, as my hon. Friend the a method of trying to tackle some of the harms. First, Member for Totnes explained, the Scottish Government this is about evidence. It is questionable whether windfall have recently introduced a Bill that seeks to bring in a profits are likely to arise, and therefore whether there 45p per unit minimum price. She asked why this would be something to tax, as a viable approach. That Government believe that that would be incompatible question rests on carefully analysing the evidence, policy with EU law, when the Scottish Government do not. If and legal issues and what is possible. I may quote the specific point: we believe that it could Finally, I hope that I have set out that the Government be incompatible with article 34 of the treaty of the have taken some action and made some starting points. functioning of the European Union. I should be delighted The Government are keen to hear evidence on the to go into more detail on that if she required. That is the matter and will observe carefully what is going on in position. Scotland and elsewhere. I should like to deal with the important point made Question put and agreed to. by my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman). No one wishes to hit pubs unnecessarily. I take the examples about the behaviour of supermarkets 4.59 pm that have been given. Like hon. Members, I am wary of Sitting adjourned.

99WS Written Ministerial Statements14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 100WS

Studio schools offer academic and vocational Written Ministerial qualifications, but teach them in a practical and project- based way. Study is combined with paid work placements Statements with local and national employers that are involved in the school. Wednesday 14 December 2011 I am pleased to confirm today that 12 new studio schools have been approved with a view to opening in September 2012: BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Bradford International Food and Travel Studio School, Bradford Foreign Affairs Council (Pre-Council Statement) Da Vinci Studio School of Science and Engineering, Hertfordshire The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Discovery Studio School, Stoke-on-Trent Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): The EU Fulham Enterprise Studio School, Hammersmith and Fulham Foreign Affairs Council will take place in Geneva on Hull Studio School, Hull 14 December 2011. The agenda will cover items relating Hinckley Studio School, Leicestershire to the eighth World Trade Organisation ministerial Hyndburn Studio School, Lancashire meeting to be held in Geneva, 15 to 17 December. I will Bournemouth Learning and Achievement Foundation Studio represent the UK. School, Bournemouth The substantive agenda items will be: the position to Ockendon Studio School ,Thurrock be taken on the accessions of Russia, Samoa and Parkside Studio School, Hillingdon Montenegro to the World Trade Organisation and mandates Tendring Studio School, Essex for deep and comprehensive free trade agreements (DCFTAs) with the middle eastern and north African The Studio, Liverpool (MENA) countries. These schools respond directly to the demand of The Government’s objective for the Council is to parents, communities and business. support the accessions of Russia and Samoa to the I have approved the very strongest applications today. World Trade Organisation and the mandates for DCFTAs I fully expect some of the groups that are disappointed with the MENA countries. today to submit even stronger applications in the future and I encourage them to do so. Indeed, the application process to set up new free schools, university technical TREASURY colleges and studio schools in 2013 and beyond has Annual European Union Finances Statement already been announced. I want particularly to urge groups to submit applications to set up new schools in areas of deprivation and basic need and where skills The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark shortages are particularly evident. Hoban): I am today laying before Parliament the annual European Union finances “Statement on the 2011 EU ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE budget and measures to combat fraud and financial mismanagement” (Cm 8232). It is the 31st in the series. UK Oil and Gas Regulatory Scheme (Review) The statement gives details of revenue and expenditure in the 2011 EU budget and covers recent developments The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate in EU financial management and measures to counter Change (Charles Hendry): My right hon. Friend the fraud against the EU budget. It also includes updated Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, in a details on the UK consolidated statement on the use of statement to the House on 14 June 2010, indicated that EU funds in the UK and changes related to the multi- a review of the regulatory regime for the offshore oil financial framework. and gas sector would be undertaken. I am pleased today Looking forward to future years’ budgets, and to have deposited in the House the report of that review particularly in the current economic and financial climate, conducted by a panel under the independent chairmanship the Government remain determined to ensure better value of Geoffrey Maitland, Professor of Energy Engineering for money in EU budget spending, to oppose unacceptable at Imperial College, London. budget increases, and to push for improvements in EU The impetus for this exercise was, of course, the financial management. disaster which befell the Deepwater Horizon rig during drilling operations in the gulf of Mexico in April 2010. The tragic loss of life and widespread pollution which EDUCATION arose as a consequence of the blow-out on that rig were a salutary reminder to industry and regulators alike New Schools of the need for the highest standards of safety and environmental control in this potentially hazardous industry. The Secretary of State for Education (Michael Gove): Inevitably the incident led to a number of both internal I am committed to responding to calls from employers and independent investigations in the US which have for an education system that develops the future work shed a great deal of light on the causes of the disaster force with the skills they need. Business leaders say that and given rise to recommendations designed to ensure equipping young people with employability skills—such that the risks of a repeat are minimised. as punctuality, good communication, reliability and Given the infrequency with which such serious incidents teamworking—should be a top education priority for occur in the offshore industry, it is important that we the Government. learn all available lessons from them. I am, therefore, 101WS Written Ministerial Statements14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 102WS grateful that Professor Maitland and his colleagues This will be the last round of allocations made to have examined the US evidence with obvious rigour PCTs as, subject to the passage of the Health and Social and distilled from it such a constructive road map for Care Bill, the NHS Commissioning Board would be driving ever higher standards in the UK. responsible for the allocation of resources and pace of I am pleased to note the report acknowledges as the change policy to clinical commissioning groups (CCGs) starting point the strengths of the UK’s safety and from 2013-14. environmental control regime and the high regard in In common with previous practice, I have today which the authorities are held both domestically and by written to all hon. Members to inform them of the international observers. I trust that the industry itself revenue allocations made to the PCTs covered by their will be reassured to note that the report also acknowledges constituencies. the extent to which UK operators and industry bodies Full details of all local allocations, including details have mobilised themselves since Deepwater Horizon in of other, specific allocations (to support primary dental an effort to raise those standards. The review has, care, pharmaceutical services, general ophthalmic services however, identified a number of important areas, and joint working between health and social care) have particularly around the assured implementation of been placed in the Library. Copies are available to hon. regulatory requirements and the promulgation of best Members from the Vote Office and to noble Lords from practice, where there appears scope for further improvement. the Printed Paper Office. They can also be found at A great many of the insightful recommendations of www.dh.gov.uk/health/2011/12/pct-allocations. the report are characterised by the theme of collaboration, whether that be between regulators, among operators or across those boundaries. In this respect, as one of the responses to the Deepwater Horizon incident, a new HOME DEPARTMENT memorandum of understanding (MoU) has already been signed between DECC and the Health and Safety Executive (HSE). I have asked that the joint board, Domestic Violence which has been established as a result, provides advice to myself and Department of Work and Pensions (DWP) Ministers on the recommendations which are relevant The Secretary of State for the Home Department to the regulators. I have also asked my officials to work (Mrs Theresa May): I am launching today a consultation with HSE and, where relevant, Maritime and Coastguard on the cross-Government definition of domestic violence. Agency colleagues in considering with industry the The consultation will run until 30 March 2012 and a broader recommendations with a view to identifying consultation paper is available on the Home Office and embedding the improvements this report suggests website. A copy of the consultation document will also are achievable. be placed in the House Library. I have requested that regulators work with industry The ambition of this Government is nothing short of to produce an agreed response and action plan by July ending violence against women and girls. As we set out next year. in our strategic vision—“Call to End Violence Against Women and Girls”—prevention will be key to achieving that ambition. Effective prevention can only happen when it involves all agencies, working together to common HEALTH goals and common understanding. That is why we are now consulting on a definition of domestic violence that all agencies and all parts of Government should Revenue Allocations 2012-13 (Primary Care Trusts) use. There are a number of aspects to the definition that this consultation considers. We are seeking views on The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): whether the current cross-Government definition of Today I am announcing revenue allocations to primary domestic violence is working and should remain. We care trusts (PCTs) for 2012-13. are also consulting on whether the definition of domestic The PCT revenue allocations in 2012-13 will grow at violence should include younger victims below 18 years 2.8%, which represents a real-terms increase, taking of age, including boys, and whether coercive control account of the Office for Budget Responsibility figure should also be reflected in the definition. for the GDP deflator in 2012-13. This represents continued positive investment in front-line NHS services. This means total investment in local NHS services in JUSTICE 2012-13 of £91.6 billion, an increase in excess of £2.5 billion in total allocations assigned in 2011-12. It puts the NHS in a strong position to deliver the Government’s national Employment Tribunals and the Employment Appeal priorities set out in the 2012-13 operating framework Tribunal (Fees) published on 24 November. To allow the NHS financial stability during a period of transition, the weighted capitation formula, normally The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice used to determine PCTs fair shares of available resources, (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): I have today published a has not been applied to the allocations. For 2012-13, all consultation paper on introducing fees in the employment PCTs will receive the same percentage uplift in their tribunal and the Employment Appeal Tribunal. The recurrent allocations. introduction of fees to these bodies will relieve pressure 103WS Written Ministerial Statements14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 104WS on the taxpayer by transferring some of the cost burden if the appropriate provisions on jurisdiction and the from taxpayers to users. It will also encourage parties to recognition and enforcement of judgments are to apply. think through whether they might settle their disputes The UK strongly supports the entry into force of the earlier and faster by using other less adversarial methods 2002 protocol because it will significantly enhance the of dispute resolution, such as ACAS conciliation, which international regime of liability that exists for damage will continue to be provided free to users. suffered as a result of the death of, or personal injury At a time of economic difficulty, I also recognise that to, a passenger and the loss of or damage to luggage, by Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunal Service provides a sea—established by the 1974 Athens convention. The vital service to business, and must play its part in the 2002 protocol will require shipowners to maintain Government’s determination to confront the structural compulsory insurance up to approximately £250,000 barriers that create unnecessary delay or cost to business, per passenger per voyage to cover liability in respect of or impede competitiveness, employer confidence and the death of and personal injury to passengers on board the creation of jobs. ships and significantly raise the limits of liability from These tribunals cost the taxpayer over £84 million per approximately £46,000 to £400,000 per passenger on annum and currently no financial contribution is sought each distinct occasion. It will also introduce other from users. The Government think it is right that those mechanisms to assist passengers in obtaining compensation, who cause the system to be used should contribute based on well-accepted principles applied in existing towards the cost, in the same way as users of other parts liability and compensation regimes dealing with of the justice system contribute to the costs of providing environmental pollution. These include replacing the the service. Therefore the principle of charging fees is fault-based liability system with a strict liability system not in question in this consultation. for shipping-related incidents and introducing the right of direct action against the insurer. The purpose of the consultation exercise is to seek views on two options for a fee charging structure in the The Union has already adopted EU Regulation 392/2009 employment tribunals and the fee structure proposed on the liability of carriers of passengers by sea which for the Employment Appeal Tribunal—all of which incorporates the 2002 protocol into EU law and ensures incorporate safeguards to protect access to the tribunal the uniform application of the 2002 protocol in the EU for those unable to afford fees. from 31 December 2012. It is, however, important that the UK and other EU member states ratify, or accede The consultation closes on the 6 March 2012. For to, the 2002 protocol to ensure that both instruments those of you who wish to respond the document is apply simultaneously within the EU as soon as possible. available online, at www.justice.gov.uk. Such an approach will greatly simplify the application of Athens regime in the shipping industry. A copy of this statement has been placed in the Libraries of both Houses. TRANSPORT

Carriage of Passengers and their Luggage by Sea Local Authority Major Transport Schemes

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport The Secretary of State for Transport (Justine Greening): (Mike Penning): I wish to inform the House that the Following the 2010 spending review the Government Government have opted in to the Council decision committed to a £1.5 billion programme of investment concerning the accession of the European Union to the in major transport schemes promoted by local authorities, protocol of 2002 to the Athens convention relating to recognising the impact that such schemes can have on the carriage of passengers and their luggage by sea, growth and the economy. 1974, as regards articles 10 and 11 thereof. The UK notified its intention to the Council and to the Commission Our aim was to ensure that the programme of investment that it wishes to accept the measure soon after the for the spending review period would be affordable, Council decision was adopted at Transport Council on would promote growth and would achieve better value 12 December 2011. for money for the taxpayer. All local authority promoters with schemes already in the pipeline were challenged to The Council decision sets out the basis for the Union’s improve their scheme design, reduce costs and secure a competence in respect of articles 10 and 11 of the 2002 greater proportion of funding from local sources. protocol and authorises the Council to conclude the 2002 protocol on behalf of the EU. A separate Council In February 2011 we confirmed funding for the first decision relating to the other provisions of the 2002 nine of these schemes and announced an expanded protocol was adopted in parallel to this decision. The development pool of 45 schemes that would be considered Union has exclusive competence as regards articles 10 in more detail. and 11 of the 2002 protocol as it affects the jurisdiction The local authority promoters of the development and the recognition and enforcement of judgments in pool schemes were invited to submit revised funding civil and commercial matters in the Union. bids in September 2011. Funding for 20 of these schemes The UK has decided to opt in to this Council decision was confirmed on 29 November as part of the autumn to ensure that it is in a position to ratify the 2002 statement. protocol within the framework of the UN’s International I am today announcing funding for a further 21 schemes Maritime Organisation, as soon as it is ready to do so. as follows. These represent a mix of road and public The UK must have opted in to the Council decision transport schemes across England. 105WS Written Ministerial Statements14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 106WS

We are not yet able to make decisions for a further A684 Bedale-Aiskew-Leeming Bar Bypass1 four of the development pool schemes. Bath Transportation Package Beverley Integrated Transport Plan In two cases, we have not yet been provided with Camborne-Pool-Redruth Transport Package sufficient evidence to allow us to assess the schemes’ value for money. These are the Leeds new generation Chester Road (Birmingham) transport (Trolleybus) and South Essex rapid transit Coventry-Nuneaton Rail Upgrade schemes. In these cases the promoters will have until Croxley Rail Link (Watford) 31 March 2012 to provide the necessary additional Darlaston (Walsall) information, and we will make decisions within two Elmbridge Transport (Gloucester) months of receipt. Leeds Inner Relief Road Maintenance The Waverley link road proposed by Rotherham borough Loughborough Town Centre Transport Scheme council is opposed in its current form by Sheffield city Luton Town Centre Transport Scheme council, whose land is required for the proposed route. Morpeth Northern Bypass We recognise that there is a case for additional transport North Fringe to Hengrove BRT (Bristol) capacity in this area but the currently proposed scheme Norwich Northern Distributor Road (NNDR)2 does not appear to be deliverable. We are inviting Nottingham Ring Road Rotherham to work with Sheffield and other stakeholders Pennine Reach (East Lanes Rapid Transit) and to propose a resolution to the issue by 31 March 2012. South Yorkshire Bus Rapid Transit Phase 1 (Sheffield/Rotherham) We recognise the critically important role that transport Sunderland Strategic Corridor improvements could play in the regeneration of the Weston Package Bexhill-Hastings area and the economic case underpinning Worcester Transport Strategy. the Bexhill-Hastings link road, though we are also 1The Department has offered North Yorkshire county council a lower aware of concerns regarding the proposed scheme, including level of funding than that applied for. The council has until the end of its environmental impact. January 2012 to accept this offer. 2Subject to Norfolk county council agreeing to fund a package of Before we take a final decision on the scheme we sustainable transport measures in Norwich city centre. want to be sure that it offers the best approach for regenerating the area and also to consider other transport This is a major programme of investment. The schemes options to achieve this, including local trunk roads such announced today will cost £854 million with a DFT as the A21, A259 and local rail. We also want to contribution of up to £586 million in this spending consider whether further environmental mitigation measures review period and beyond. The total DFT contribution could be deployed to address the impacts of the proposed to all 41 schemes will be up to £972 million, compared Bexhill-Hastings scheme. to the £1.575 billion that was previously requested for Over the next three months the Department will these schemes prior to the spending review—a 38% work alongside the scheme’s promoters and other local reduction. This means that a far greater number of and regional partners to gather further evidence on the schemes can go ahead than would otherwise have been optimal solution for the area. We would intend to make the case. a decision swiftly thereafter. All the schemes announced will now be able to progress Details of each of the schemes and the funding towards construction subject to securing any remaining offered by the Government are available on the DFT necessary planning and statutory approvals and subject website and will be followed by a more detailed document to confirmation of value for money where material setting out the details of our decision-making process, changes to the scheme have been proposed. and information on our assessment of the schemes. 757W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 758W Written Answers to Electric Vehicles

Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Questions Transport what recent discussions she has had on electric cars with the Mayor of London. [82955] Wednesday 14 December 2011 Norman Baker: The Secretary of State for Transport, the right hon. Member for Putney (Justine Greening), has not yet had the opportunity to meet with the Mayor TRANSPORT of London to discuss electric cars. Aviation: Security Motor Vehicles: Carbon Emissions Paul Uppal: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport which airports are taking part in pilot testing of EU Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Regulation 185/2010. [85174] Transport what recent discussions she has had with her Mrs Villiers: The trial of the alternative process for European counterparts on vehicle emissions. [82964] the screening of religious headgear is being undertaken at many UK airports. These are listed as follows: Norman Baker: The Secretary of State has not yet UK airports participating in headgear trial had any such discussions since her appointment, but the Aberdeen Department for Transport has regular discussions with Belfast City Airport our EU counterparts. Birmingham Blackpool Bristol Cardiff HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION East Midlands Edinburgh Departmental Catering Gatwick Glasgow Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the hon. Member for Heathrow Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing HIAL—Barra, Benbecula, Campbeltown, Dundee, Islay, Inverness, the House of Commons Commission, whether the House Kirkwall, Stornoway, Sumburgh, Tiree and Wick of Commons catering service plans to implement calorie London City labelling on menus and display boards. [85864] Luton Manchester John Thurso: The House of Commons catering service Newcastle recognises that it has a role to play in encouraging Newquay people to choose healthier foods. It currently achieves Norwich this by using a ’traffic light’ system of signposting Oxford healthier choices on its daily cafeteria menus and by Southampton running periodic ’healthy eating’ promotions. Stansted Although the service currently has no plans to implement Guernsey calorie labelling on menus and display boards, it is Jersey watching with interest the development of this initiative by the commercial catering organisations that have Buses: Licensing pledged to do so under the Government’s ’Public Health Responsibility Deal’ launched in March 2011. Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) on how many occasions the traffic commissioners have granted or renewed PCV licences Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the hon. Member for to people who have subsequently been found not to Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing have fully declared their criminal records in the most the House of Commons Commission, what steps the House of Commons Catering Service is taking to recent period for which figures are available; [85751] ensure the countries of origin of foods are labelled on (2) on how many occasions the traffic commissioners its menus and display boards. [85865] revoked people’s passenger carrying vehicle licences on the grounds that at the time of original application or application for renewal they had not fully declared John Thurso: The House of Commons catering their criminal records in the most recent period for service recognises that the provenance of foods served which figures are available. [85871] in its restaurants is of interest to its customers, and its sustainable food procurement policy is being updated. Mike Penning: The traffic commissioners decisions The service does not plan to publish as a matter of are not held centrally or by reason and currently could course details about the countries of origin of foods on be obtained only at disproportionate cost. I have, however, its menus and display boards, although the provenance asked my officials to look into the feasibility of holding of the main ingredient may sometimes be indicated in these decisions centrally in the future. the description. 759W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 760W

CABINET OFFICE Such secondment arrangements form part of the Cabinet Office’s strategy to bring in expertise relevant Business to policy development, operational delivery or specialist areas such as procurement and digital delivery from Alun Cairns: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet commercial and third sector organisations, as well as Office how small and medium-sized enterprises in Vale the wider public sector. of Glamorgan constituency can bid for central Government ICT facilities management contracts. [86432] Private and Public Sector: Females

Mr Letwin: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer Jessica Morden: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet I gave my hon. Friend the Member for Calder Valley Office what estimate has been made of the proportion (Craig Whittaker) at Cabinet Office oral questions today. of people working in the (a) private sector and (b) public sector in Wales; and what proportion are female Cabinet Sub-Committee on Infrastructure in each case. [86652] Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Office what the membership is of the Cabinet Sub- asked the authority to reply. Committee on Infrastructure. [85369] Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated December 2011: Mr Maude: Membership of the Infrastructure Sub- As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, Committee is as follows: I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking what estimate has been made of the proportion of people working Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Chair) (The Rt Hon. Danny in the (a) private sector and (b) public sector in Wales; and what Alexander MP) proportion are female in each case. [086652] Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Deputy Chair) (The Rt Hon. Public Sector employment statistics for local areas can be Oliver Letwin MP) calculated from the Annual Population Survey (APS). Individuals Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (The Rt in the APS are classified to the public or private sector according Hon. Dr Vince Cable MP) to their responses to the survey. Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (The Rt Table 1 shows the proportion of people employed in public Hon. Chris Huhne MP) and private sector in Wales and the proportion of those employed Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government in the public and private sector who are female. The figures have (The Rt Hon. Eric Pickles MP) been provided from the APS for the 12 month periods April 2010 Secretary of State for Transport (The Rt Hon. Justine Greening to March 2011, the latest period for which figures are available. MP) Table 1: Proportion of people employed in (a) public and (b) private sector in Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Wales and proportion of those employed in public and private sector who are female—April 2010 to March 2011 (The Rt Hon. Caroline Spelman MP) Proportion (%) Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport Public Private (The Rt Hon. Jeremy Hunt MP) Minister of State for Trade and Investment (Lord Green) Wales 31.2 68.8 Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon) of which female 64.1 40.2 Source: Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Crime Prevention) Annual Population Survey (James Brokenshire MP) As with any sample survey, estimates from the APS are subject Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Defence Equipment, to a margin of uncertainty. Support and Technology) (Peter Luff MP) National and local area estimates for many labour market statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant Departmental Secondment count are available on the NOMIS website at: http://www.nomisweb.co.uk Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office (1) what secondments there have been to Senior Civil Servants: Meetings his Department from (a) industry and (b) the third sector since May 2010; what the (i) purpose and (ii) duration is Lisa Nandy: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office of each secondment; and whether each secondment was what rules govern the (a) declaration and (b) recording to a policy development role; [86147] of meetings held by senior civil servants. [86198] (2) what secondments there have been to 10 Downing street from (a) industry and (b) the third sector since Mr Maude: Meetings are recorded in accordance with May 2010; what the (i) purpose and (ii) duration is of departmental procedures on record keeping. The National each secondment; and whether each secondment was to Archives also produces “Guidance on the Management a policy development role. [86148] of Private Office Papers” which can be accessed at: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/information- Mr Maude: The Prime Minister’s Office is an integral management/popapersguidance2009.pdf part of the Cabinet Office and is included in the reply. Since May 2010, there have been 23 secondments into Social Exclusion my Department from industry and one secondment Mark Tami: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet from a third sector organisation. Office what assessment his Department has made of These secondments ranged in duration from two months the role of the big society initiative in tackling social to two years, at an average duration of eight months. exclusion. [86420] 761W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 762W

Mr Letwin: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer Pensioners: Income I gave the hon. Member for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth) at Cabinet Office oral questions earlier today. Ben Gummer: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what recent estimate has been made of the number of pensioners whose incomes exceed the WORK AND PENSIONS average income of an individual in employment. Employment Schemes [86062]

Mrs Ellman: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Steve Webb: Table 1 shows the number of pensioners and Pensions how much funding has been earmarked living in a household with an equivalised income greater for job retention in the Work Choice Programme. than the median equivalised income for households where at least one member is in some form of employment [85986] (this could either be full- or part-time employment). Maria Miller: All customers who enter employment Results both Before Housing Costs and After Housing through Work Choice are entitled to have support enabling Costs have been provided. For Before Housing Costs, them to retain their employment. Providers receive an housing costs are not deducted from income, while for overall service fee for delivering a range of services, After Housing Costs they are. rather than a specific payment for retention work. Figures have been rounded to the nearest 100,000 Mrs Ellman: To ask the Secretary of State for Work pensioners and proportions rounded to the nearest and Pensions how many people were (a) referred to percentage point. Workstep for support in retaining their existing job in Table 1: The number of pensioners living in households with an income each year in which the scheme operated and (b) greater than the median household income where at least one member of the household is employed, United Kingdom, 2009-10 referred to Work Choice since 2010. [85988] Number of Proportion of Maria Miller: The Department did not collect data pensioners (million) pensioners (%) about individuals who have been referred to Workstep Before Housing Costs 3.3 29 for support to retain their existing job. After Housing Costs 4.1 36 In line with UK Statistics Authority guidance we will Notes: be publishing official statistics on referrals to Work 1. These statistics are based on the Households Below Average Choice in spring 2012. Income (HBAI) series, sourced from the Family Resources Survey (FRS). This uses disposable household income, adjusted using modified OECD equivalisation factors for household size and composition, as Housing Benefit: Females an income measure as a proxy for standard of living. 2. Net disposable incomes have been used to answer the question. Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for This includes earnings from employment and self-employment, state Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 8 December support, income from occupational and private pensions, investment 2011, Official Report, column 396W,on housing benefit: income and other sources. Income tax payments, national insurance contributions, council tax/domestic rates and some other payments females, how many lone parents receive local housing are deducted from both income measures. In addition a measure of allowance in Wales; and what proportion of such claimants housing costs are also deducted from the After Housing Cost incomes. are female. [86627] 3. Analysis has been carried out based on equivalised household incomes. This takes an adult couple with no children as the reference Steve Webb: The information requested on lone parents point. For example, the process of equivalisation would adjust the in Wales receiving housing benefit paid according to the income of a single pensioner upwards, so that we can use income to local housing allowance scheme and the percentage that directly compare their standard of living with a working-age couple without children. are female is provided in the following table: 4. The median equivalised income for households where at least one Lone parents member of the household is employed is; £485 per week Before Housing Costs and £424 per week After Housing Costs. Local housing allowance 5. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to a tenants (LHA) Percentage that are female degree of uncertainty. Small differences should be treated with caution Wales 22,030 94.3 as these will be affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. 6. The reference period for HBAI figures is the financial year. Notes: 7. Measures for pensioners are generally on an After Housing Costs 1. The figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. basis. This is because pensioners are far more likely to own their 2. Percentage has been rounded to the nearest decimal place. homes outright and so receive value from housing, without having to 3. Housing benefit figures exclude any extended payment cases. An pay for rent or mortgage payments out of their current income. So for extended payment is a payment that may be received for a further four assessing pensioner poverty a Before Housing Costs basis does not weeks when they start working full time, work more hours or earn provide a good comparison of living standards. more money. 4. SHBE is a monthly electronic scan of claimant level data direct from local authority computer systems. It replaces quarterly aggregate Council Tax Benefits clerical returns. 5. The data is available monthly from November 2008 and August Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011 is the latest available. 6. For this analysis lone parents are those who are single with child Work and Pensions what the average annual council dependant(s). tax benefit payment was for a (a) pensioner household 7. Caseload figure includes less than 1% of cases where gender is not and (b) household including at least one person of recorded/missing, working age in each local authority area in 2010-11. 8. Local housing allowance was introduced in the Private Deregulated [85343] sector from April 2008. The methodology for recording claimants within the statistics as either LHA/non-LHA is under review. Source: Steve Webb: The information has been placed in the Single Housing Benefit Extract (SHBE) Aug-11 Library. 763W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 764W

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Departmental Catering Assets: Birmingham Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities Communities and Local Government whether food and and Local Government what assets his Department catering services in (a) his Department and (b) public owns in Birmingham; and what the book value is of bodies for which he is responsible plan to implement each such asset. [85452] calorie labelling on menus and display boards. [85854]

Robert Neill: The Department for Communities and Robert Neill: The Department for Communities and Local Government leases two buildings in Birmingham. Local Government and its public bodies’ caterers are They are 5 St Philips Place, Colmore Row and 77 contracted to comply with Government Buying Standards Paradise Circus. The leases for both properties are for Food and Catering Services. Calorie labelling forms rack-rented operating leases and as such they have no part of an evolving strategy to offer a choice of diet to asset value to the Department. our staff. Moving forward we are working with Department Council Tax for Education on a shared services arrangement and negotiating a new total Facilities Management Contract Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for which will be in place from April 2012. This contract Communities and Local Government if he will place in will conform to Government Buying Solutions Standards the Library a copy of each representation he has received and calorie labelling will form part of the new contract. from local authorities on the need for changes to single This answer incorporates all of the Department and person’s council tax discount. [86667] its associated public bodies with the exception of the Planning Inspectorate, where the information was not Robert Neill: All responses to the Government’s readily available. consultation on Localising Council Tax Support will be considered and a summary of responses will be published Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State shortly. However, as indicated by my noble Friend, for Communities and Local Government what steps Baroness Hanham, on 3 November 2011, Official Report, the food and catering services in (a) his Department House of Lords, column WA292, the Government have and (b) public bodies for which he is responsible are already made it clear that it does not intend to make taking to ensure the countries of origin of foods are changes to the council tax single person discount scheme. labelled on its menus and display boards. [85855] Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many people Robert Neill: The Department for Communities and in each local authority area are eligible for the single Local Government and its public bodies’ caterers are person’s discount on council tax. [86668] contracted to comply with Government Buying Standards for food and catering services and information on country Robert Neill: Details of the number of people in each of origin is available through the supply chain where local authority in England that are recorded as being in requested. Moving forward we are negotiating a new receipt of the single persons discount for council tax total facilities management contract which will be in purposes as at 3 October 2011 are available on line 8 of place from April 2012. This contract will conform to the table “Council tax base local authority level data Government Buying Solutions Standards and we will 2011”that is available on the Department for Communities work with the new catering supplier to improve the and Local Government website at: degree and quality of information provided to customers. http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/ This answer incorporates all of the Department and statistics/counciltaxbase2011 its associated public bodies with the exception of the Planning Inspectorate, where the information was not Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for readily available. Communities and Local Government what estimate he has made of the cost of establishing local schemes for distributing council tax benefit in each local authority Energy Performance Certificates area; and if he will make a statement. [86670] Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Robert Neill: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Communities and Local Government if he will consider given on 22 November 2011, Official Report, column amending the requirements for energy performance 225W,to the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen certificates to be made available when a residential Timms). property is put up for sale to include information on Council Tax Benefits: Expenditure floor area and energy usage; and if he will make a statement. [86449] Michael Dugher: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what estimate he Andrew Stunell: Energy performance certificates already has made of the level of expenditure on council tax contain information about a dwelling’s floor area and benefit in each local authority in 2010-11; and how energy usage and must be made available to prospective much such expenditure was incurred in respect of (a) purchasers within 28 days of a property being marketed pensioner and (b) working age households in each for sale. We are making a number of changes to the such authority. [85342] energy performance certificate to significantly improve its format and content and ensure that it effectively Steve Webb: I have been asked to reply. supports the Green Deal. The revised energy performance The information has been placed in the Library. certificate will be released in April 2012. 765W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 766W

Government Procurement Card We are also investing £4.5 billion in new affordable housing over the spending review period and £2.1 billion on Decent Homes to improve the condition of existing Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for social housing. Communities and Local Government pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth of 3 November 2011, Official Report, column 782W, on Local Government: Land the Government Procurement Card, which Minister in his Department visited Auckland in March 2007; and Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for what the purpose of the visit was. [81608] Communities and Local Government how much (a) brownfield, (b) green belt and (c) green field land is Robert Neill: The then Under-Secretary of State (Angela owned by each local authority in England. [85914] E Smith), visited Auckland in March 2007 to attend the Commonwealth Local Government Conference 2007. Robert Neill [holding answer 12 December 2011]: There were an estimated 5,350 hectares of brownfield Housing: Finance land owned by local authorities in England in 2009, according to the National Land Use Database of Previously-Developed Land. A table showing the amounts Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for and number of sites by local authority has been placed Communities and Local Government what account his in the Library of the House. Department took of population variations between local authority areas in determining allocation of the No information is available on the amount of local authority owned green belt or greenfield land. New Homes Bonus. [86196] My Department is taking a series of steps to encourage Grant Shapps: The New Homes Bonus is based on the development and regeneration of brownfield sites, the number of additional homes and those brought as outlined in my answer of 25 October 2011, Official back into use, with a premium for affordable homes. Report, column 123W. Through the Bonus, local authority areas which are growing in population will have more resources to meet New Deal for Communities Scheme the needs and aspirations of new and existing residents. Mr Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what work has Communities and Local Government for what reasons been carried out in each borough under the New Deal he (a) reduced the housing budget in 2010-11 and (b) for Communities scheme; and what work carried out increased the housing budget in 2011-12. [86332] under the New Deal for Communities scheme has been continued following the ending of the scheme. [83268] Grant Shapps: The last Administration left the biggest budget deficit in our peacetime history—with the state Andrew Stunell [holding answer 25 November 2011]: forecast to borrow £146 billion a year in 2010-11, or A table providing a summary of priorities for each of £400 million being borrowed every single day. This was the 39 New Deal for Communities areas and details of unsustainable. The coalition Government, through the projects developed by the Communities partnerships Emergency Budget and spending review, has taken steps for each area has been deposited in the Library of the to tackle this deficit, restoring market confidence. These House. The Department does not have a full picture of measures will help eliminate the structural current deficit the completion of all projects across the programme, over the next five years. This will help keep interest rates which is a matter for the individual partnerships, their down for home owners, restore economic stability and successor bodies and, where different, the local authorities reduce the amount of taxpayers’ money that would in those areas. The National Evaluation of the Communities otherwise be spent on debt interest. programme, published in March 2010, concluded that Within the agreed public spending envelope, we have the New Deal for Communities had delivered improvements taken steps to support house building, given the important and that, in general, they had narrowed the gaps with contribution it makes to economic growth and the need the rest of the country in relation to six broad themes; to build more homes in light of demographic change. crime, health, worklessness, education, community cohesion, This has included using departmental unallocated funding and housing and the environment. Three quarters of to support housing (e.g. the Growing Places Fund). We New Deal for Communities have agreed succession have also configured our housing policies to tackle the strategies so that the benefits and improvements made particular problems currently being faced in the housing over the life of the programme can be sustained into the market: longer term. Lenders are not lending enough—with high deposit requirements excluding young people and families from home ownership. Non-domestic Rates Hence, we are promoting schemes such as Firstbuy, extending the Right to Buy and supporting a new and innovative new build indemnity scheme. Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what estimate he Builders are not building—without consumers ready to buy, and without enough land for development or access to finance. has made of the amount of business rates revenue Hence, we are promoting policies such as the Getting Britain which will be lost to each local authority as a result of Building investment fund and the Build Now, Pay Later programme schools becoming academies in the next five years; and for public sector land. if he will make a statement. [86666] 767W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 768W

Robert Neill: None. Business rates reliefs for ratepayers (5) on what date she last met the Secretary of State are an integral part of the business rates system and we for Work and Pensions to discuss the effects of the have no plans to amend them. Mandatory relief should Government’s Work Programme on Wales; [86270] be granted if a ratepayer meets the eligibility criteria. (6) on what date she last met the Chancellor of the Exchequer to discuss the implications for Wales of his Planning Permission Autumn Statement; [86271] (7) on what date she last met the Home Secretary to Julian Sturdy: To ask the Secretary of State for discuss levels of crime in Wales; [86272] Communities and Local Government what research his Department has (a) commissioned and (b) evaluated (8) on what date she last had a bilateral meeting with on minimum density requirements in planning policy. each other Cabinet Minister to discuss matters relating [86232] to Wales; and if she will publish a minute of each meeting; [86278] Robert Neill: The Department for Communities and (9) on how many occasions she has met the Secretary Local Government has not recently commissioned any of State for Energy and Climate Change to discuss the research specifically on minimum density requirements implications for Welsh businesses of the proposed in planning policy.Whitehall minimum density requirements abolition of the feed-in tariff; [86297] were abolished in June 2010 to help councils protect (10) on what date she last met the Secretary of State residential neighbourhoods from unwanted ‘garden for Justice to discuss prisons in Wales. [86269] grabbing’. The draft National Planning Policy Framework asks local planning authorities to set their own approach to housing density to reflect local circumstances. Mrs Gillan: Both the Under-Secretary of State for Consultation on the draft framework has now closed Wales, my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West (Mr and we are now considering all the responses. Jones), and I regularly meet ministerial colleagues and senior officials across Government to discuss matters of Planning Permission: Urban Areas importance to Wales. In line with the practice of successive Administrations, information relating to internal advice Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for and discussion is not normally disclosed. Communities and Local Government (1) for what reasons the inclusion of offices in the sequential town centre test contained in Planning Policy Statement 6 has not been carried over to the draft National Planning Policy FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Framework; [85913] (2) pursuant to the oral answer of 5 December 2011, Afghanistan: Females Official Report, column 15, on high street development, whether it is his policy to include offices in the Michael Connarty: To ask the Secretary of State for sequential town centre test. [86023] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what recent discussions he has had with the Afghan government on Greg Clark [holding answer 12 December 2011]: A the involvement of women in the political processes at draft new National Planning Policy Framework was all levels in Afghanistan; [86161] published for consultation in July 2011. We are now giving very careful consideration to all responses received (2) if he will press the Afghan government to ensure to the consultation, before publishing a final version of that women have an effective voice and role in all levels the framework. of the peace process in that country. [86162]

Alistair Burt: At the International Conference on Afghanistan in Bonn on 5 December, the Secretary of WALES State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) Government: Ministerial Meetings (Mr Hague), stated that: “The principle of inclusiveness is vital, so that all Afghanistan’s Mr Hain: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) people have a stake in the country’s future”. on what date she last met the Secretary of State for The Conference, chaired by Afghanistan, agreed a clear Transport to discuss the implications for Wales of High set of guiding principles for the reconciliation process Speed 2; [86262] and its outcomes and also an inclusive, representative (2) on what date she last had a bilateral meeting with peace process. The Conference also made clear that the the Cabinet Secretary to discuss matters relating to fundamental rights of women and children are key for Wales; and if she will publish a minute of the meeting; Afghanistan’s future. [86263] The Government’s International Violence Against (3) on what date she last had a bilateral meeting with Women Champion, the Minister for Equalities, the the Minister for Political and Constitutional Reform to hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne discuss matters relating to Wales; and if she will Featherstone), also attended the Civil Society Forum publish a minute of the meeting; [86264] on Afghanistan held in Bonn on 2-3 December, where (4) on what date she last met the Government she reiterated the UK Government’s commitment to an Spokesperson for Welsh Affairs in the House of Lords; inclusive political process in Afghanistan and the and if she will publish a minute of the meeting; [86265] importance of the protection of Afghan women’s rights. 769W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 770W

We will continue to make clear to the Government of account of the risk of fraud and reputational damage Afghanistan that any political process should be inclusive and considers all other sources of assurance. Audits are and address the concerns of all Afghan citizens. carried out exclusively in the UK and the exact timing of an audit is a collaborative decision involving Wilton Departmental Audit Park senior staff and the lead auditor. Timing takes into account seasonal peaks in business activity and the availability of audit staff. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what criteria (a) his Department and (b) its public bodies use when deciding Economic and Monetary Union whether and when to hold an internal audit; and if he will make a statement. [85638] Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office answer to the hon. Member for New Forest East of (FCO) Internal Audit Department provides internal 29 November 2011, Official Report, column 863W, on audit services to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, Europe: politics and government, what assessment he its Executive Agency (Wilton Park) and Trading Fund has made of the potential effects of fiscal union (FCO Services). This activity provides their Accounting between the states of the Eurozone on the maintenance Officers with an overall opinion on risk management, of (a) elected, (b) representative and (c) democratic control and governance arrangements, as required by governments in those states; what discussions he had HM Treasury. For each of these bodies a discrete annual with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on such effects, programme of work is agreed with their Audit Committee prior to the Government recommending fiscal union and the Permanent Under-Secretary (FCO) or Chief for the states of the Eurozone; and if he will make a Executives of FCO Services and Wilton Park, as statement. [84842] appropriate. The criteria used for deciding what to audit and when is as follows. Mr Lidington: It is for each individual country of the FCO Eurozone to assess the effects of fiscal union on these FCO Internal Audit works in the context of the three issues. The UK remains committed to both a FCO’s risk management framework, an approach generally strong and stable Eurozone and to liberal democratic known as Risk Based Internal Auditing. There is an values. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the annually agreed strategy setting out which areas of the Treasury ministerial teams work very closely in developing FCO should be audited. There are two distinct approaches policy on the EU. within the strategy: one for the risks in the UK and the other for overseas risk. For the home programme the European Union: Treaties strategy takes account of FCO risk registers, known and expected business change, input from FCO Directors and the risk of fraud and reputational damage. For the David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for overseas network a risk model is used to help prioritise Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether any new Posts in terms of risk. Within any given year, the timing European Treaty will be subject to a referendum. of an actual audit is at the discretion of the auditor [85897] leading it unless management has expressed a particular view (i.e. because of the timing of other reviews or Mr Lidington: Under the European Union Act 2011, anticipated changes to the systems in question). Other any Treaty change which transfers competence or power issues around timing include logistics and, overseas, from the UK to the EU will require a referendum of the security. FCO Internal Audit also conduct some audits British people. The EU Act clearly defines what is without notice. meant by a transfer of competence or power. FCO Services The methodology for selecting audits is very similar Japan: Whales to the FCO except that FCO Services adopts a three year strategy (with an annual review) .and audits are Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for carried out exclusively in the UK. The methodology to Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many discussions populate the strategy with individual audits is risk he has had with the Japanese ambassador on Japan’s based and takes account of FCO Services risk registers, annual whaling hunt. [86653] discussion with Senior Management, forward objectives, Key Performance Indicators and a review of other sources of assurance. Within any given year the timing Mr Jeremy Browne: This Government support the of an actual audit is at the discretion of the auditor International Whaling Commission (IWC) moratorium leading it unless management has expressed a particular on commercial whaling because it believes strongly that view which it would be sensible to accommodate. the annual whaling hunt involves unacceptable cruelty. Although the Secretary of State for Foreign and Wilton Park Commonwealth Affairs, the right hon. Member for FCO Internal Audit prepares a three year strategy Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), has not had the which is then reviewed and approved each year by the opportunity to raise this issue with the current ambassador Audit Committee and Chief Executive. The methodology of Japan, both he and I raised it during our visits to to populate the strategy with individual audits is risk Japan late last year. Ministers and senior officials will based and takes account of business changes and input continue to convey our concerns with the Japanese from the Finance and Operations Directors. It takes Government when suitable opportunities arise. 771W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 772W

Libya: Arms Trade Sergei Magnitsky

Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has given any for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will press consideration to bringing forward proposals similar to the new Libyan authorities to ensure that the terms of the Sergei Magnitsky Rule of Law Accountability Act the compensation package to be offered to victims of proposed in the US Congress. [86072] the IRA’s Libyan supplied semtex campaign do not distinguish between those police or military personnel killed on duty and those off duty at the time of the Mr Lidington: We are aware of the Sergei Magnitsky Rule of Law Accountability Act, introduced to the U.S attacks. [86591] Congress in 2011, which if passed, would see sanctions imposed on Russian officials allegedly responsible for Alistair Burt: Properly addressing legacy issues will the detention, abuse, or death of Sergei Magnitsky. be an important part of the UK’s relationship with The Immigration Rules enable us to refuse a visa Libya. I raised this with the Libyan Transitional where, for example, information on an individual’s character, Government during my visit to Tripoli on 6 to 8 December. conduct or associations makes entry to the UK undesirable. I made clear our desire to see progress on outstanding However, the UK has a long established practice of not issues from the Gaddafi era. The newly appointed Foreign commenting routinely on individual visa cases. Minister Ashour Ben Khayyal agreed that we would take forward discussions on this. Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign The campaigns seeking compensation for IRA victims and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is taking are private. The terms of the campaigns and the range together with his EU counterparts in response to the of victims are therefore also private. However, we death in custody of Sergei Magnitsky. [86073] understand at this stage that no settlement has been made. Mr Lidington: We have discussed Mr Magnitsky’s arrest, detention and death with a number of our European partners who share our concerns. The EU raised this Saudi Arabia: Politics and Government case during EU-Russia Human Rights Consultations in November.

Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment and Commonwealth Affairs what recent steps he has he has made of the findings of the report by Amnesty taken in respect of the death in custody of Sergei International entitled Saudi Arabia: Repression in the Magnitsky. [86208] name of Security; and if he will make a statement. [86046] Mr Lidington: We have repeatedly made clear to the Russian Government our concerns about Mr Magnitsky’s Alistair Burt: The Amnesty international Report on arrest, detention and death, most recently during the Saudi Arabia summarises the current human rights Prime Minister’s visit to Moscow in September, where situation in Saudi Arabia. It covers the draft anti-terror he discussed this case with President Medvedev. The law, detentions and trials, and freedom of expression. Prime Minister also referred to the Magnitsky case as a Our embassy in Riyadh has been engaged in a dialogue high profile human rights concern in Russia during his with the Saudi Arabian Government on these issues for speech on ‘Foreign Policy in the National Interest’ on some time. There is widespread acceptance in the Saudi 14 November. We will continue to urge the Russian Government and Saudi human rights organisations that Government to complete a thorough and transparent the draft anti-terror law is unsuitable in its present investigation into this case and bring to justice those form: the current draft is extremely unlikely to pass into responsible for Mr Magnitsky’s death. law. Our embassy has raised the issue of arbitrary detentions with the Ministry of the Interior and the Steria Ministry of Justice and has been given permission to attend a forthcoming terror trial. Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign We have asked the Saudi authorities for more information and Commonwealth Affairs how many contracts his with regard to the case referred to in the Report, which Department has awarded to Steria since May 2010; and concerns 16 men convicted under anti-terror legislation what the (a) purpose, (b) monetary value and (c) net to sentences ranging from five to 30 years, before we worth was of each contract. [85477] determine our next course of action. Freedom of expression concerns largely relate to the periods of unrest in the Mr Lidington: It is longstanding Foreign and Eastern Province this year. Following the most recent Commonwealth Office practice not to comment on the outbreak of unrest in November, we note the Saudi detail of its security contracts or its security systems. Arabian Government issued a statement that security forces have been instructed to exercise restraint. We Turkey: Human Rights welcome the willingness of Saudi human rights organisations to engage with Amnesty on human rights Hywel Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for concerns, which will raise awareness of the progress Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to his made by Saudi Arabia to date and give greater clarity contribution of 9 November 2011, Official Report, on the requirements for further reform. column 304, on the middle-east and North Africa, 773W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 774W what discussions he had with the President of Turkey Damian Green: Due to the way that the data are on (a) human rights and (b) the Kurdish minority in recorded, it is not possible for these figures to be broken Turkey. [86361] down by the number returned to face prosecution or to serve an existing sentence in each year without a manual Mr Lidington: The Secretary of State for Foreign and examination of each individual case file. This would Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member incur a disproportionate cost. for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), did not have any substantive meetings with the President of Turkey during Avon and Somerset Constabulary: Finance the state visit. During the state visit there were several meetings Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for between members of the Government and members of the Home Department how much core funding her the Turkish delegation. A very wide range of topics was Department allocated to Avon and Somerset police discussed. We do not reveal the details of private diplomatic authority in (a) 2008-09, (b) 2009-10, (c) 2010-11 and exchanges. (d) 2011-12; and how much it plans to allocate in (i) Our embassy in Ankara regularly raises human rights cash and (ii) real terms in 2012-13. [86223] with the relevant Turkish authorities. We will continue to monitor developments in human rights and issues Nick Herbert: The funding figures for Avon and surrounding the Kurdish minorities. Somerset police authority were: Zimbabwe: Diamonds (a) £116.4 million (2008-09); (b) £115.1 million (2009-10); Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State (c) £118.5 million (2010-11); for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions (d) £120.9 million (2011-12). he has had with his UN counterparts on the decision to The provisional resource allocation for 2012-13 is lift the embargo on the sale of diamonds originating £112.7 million. from Zimbabwe; and what assessment he has made of the effect of the decision on the sanctions regime that Civil Disorder has been placed on Zimbabwe. [86509]

Mr Bellingham: The EU who represents Britain in the Malcolm Wicks: To ask the Secretary of State for the Kimberley Process (KP) had discussions with all 50 KP Home Department how many firms of loss adjusters participants ahead of the KP Plenary meeting in Kinshasa have been employed by police forces to assess claims in November. I have discussed diamond exports from for compensation under the Riot (Damages) Act 1886 the Marange region of Zimbabwe with the Governments arising from the civil disorder of August 2011; at what of South Africa, the United States of America and rate firms have been remunerated; and what the total Belgium. amount of fees paid to such firms has been, at the most The Kinshasa agreement does not impact on the EU recent date for which figures are available. [85572] Restricted Measures which are up for their annual review by the EU 27 member states in February 2012. Nick Herbert: This information is not collected centrally. However, these data are available from the respective police authorities.

HOME DEPARTMENT Departmental Official Hospitality Antisocial Behaviour Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for the Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how much her Department spent Home Department when she plans to publish the on hospitality for events hosted by each Minister in her response to her Department’s consultation entitled Department in each of the last 12 months. [73667] More effective responses to anti-social behaviour. [85488] Damian Green: As part of the interviewing for the new Metropolitan Police Commissioner, the Secretary James Brokenshire: The Home Office has received of State for the Home Department, my right hon. over 1,000 written responses to the consultation from Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), provided the police and other front-line professionals, members a working lunch at a cost of £32.83. of the judiciary, local authorities, interest groups and No other events have been hosted by Ministers of the members of the public. We want to ensure that our Home Department where hospitality has been provided; proposals reflect that wealth of knowledge and expertise, this excludes the de minimus levels of expenditure on and will publish our response in due course. teas, coffees and light refreshments. Arrest Warrants Departmental Public Expenditure Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many people returned to Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for the the UK under the European Arrest Warrant returned Home Department whether she receives any external to (a) face prosecution and (b) served an existing funding for (a) her ministerial office and (b) her sentence in each year since its inception; and if she will advisers; and what the (i) source and (ii) amount is of make a statement. [78625] any such funding. [77590] 775W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 776W

Damian Green: The Home Office does not receive any Immigrants: Detainees external funding for ministerial offices or for special advisers. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for the Domestic Violence Home Department with reference to the detention data tables Immigration Statistics April-June 2011 table dt.07.q, for what reasons each of the 74 individuals Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for the detained for more than 24 months has not been Home Department what plans she has for the classification removed from the UK. [82103] and recording of convictions for offences against a partner as domestic violence offences. [84903] Damian Green: The following table sets out the total Lynne Featherstone: The Crown Prosecution Service length of stay in the UK of the 74 individuals detained (CPS) already record domestic violence convictions. for more than 24 months referred to in the Immigration The recently published CPS Violence Against Women Statistics April to June 2011. and Girls Crime Report shows that in the last year (2010-11) the proportion of defendants convicted for Length of time (in years) in the UK based on first application raised Number of individuals domestic violence offences has stayed steady at 72%, against an 11 % increase both the volume of defendants 37 prosecuted (82,187) and convicted (59,101). 47 513 Domestic Violence: Homicide 65 76 Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for the 810 Home Department how many (a) men and (b) women 97 were killed by a current or former partner in each year 10 4 since 2006. [83698] 11 5 Lynne Featherstone: The available data are given in 12 3 the table and are taken from the Home Office Homicide 13 1 Index and relate to homicides recorded by police forces 14 1 in England and Wales, including the British Transport 15 1 Police. 17 2 Data for 2010-11 will be available in January 2012. 18 1 20 1 Partner/ex-partner homicides currently1 recorded by relationship of victim to principal suspect, 2005-06 to 2009-10, England and Wales The following table sets out the reasons why the 74 Number individuals detained for more than 24 months referred 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 to in the Immigration Statistics April to June 2011, had Men2230343121not been removed from the UK. As the table shows, five Women 90 91 79 101 95 of the individuals have now been removed from the Total 112 121 113 132 116 UK. This information is taken from internal management information and is subject to change. 1. As at 28 September 2010; figures are subject to revision as cases are dealt with by the police and by the courts, or as further information becomes available. Barriers to removal Number of individuals Source: Home Office Homicide Index Travel document 39 Appeals 6 Habitual Residence Test Children issues 1 Country situation 1 Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for the Nationality not confirmed 1 Home Department what recent assessment she has made of the effectiveness of the habitual residence test. Judicial review 15 Awaiting removal: multiple barriers 4 [81663] Rule 391 2 Chris Grayling: I have been asked to reply. Removed 5 1 This is a request to the European court of human rights (under rule We have strict rules in place to prevent abuse of the 39) that an applicant should not be removed from the UK. benefit system and to prevent benefit tourism. One of the principal measures is the habitual residence test. Of the 74 individuals detained for more than 24 months The test ensures that people coming from abroad can referred to in the Immigration Statistics April to June only access income-related benefits if they have a right 2011, 53 lodged an appeal against their deportation. In to reside and are habitually resident in the Common addition to this: Travel Area1. The Department for Work and Pensions is 29 individuals submitted a judicial review (JR) against unlawful considering all the details of the European Commission’s detention. Reasoned Opinion against the right to reside element of five submitted a JR on HR grounds. the habitual residence test, and is committed to taking five submitted a JR against unlawful detention and on HR the necessary steps to ensure the UK retains control of grounds. its welfare policies. To determine in which court those of the 74 individuals 1 The UK, the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, and the Republic detained for more than 24 months referred to in the of Ireland. Immigration Statistics April to June 2011 have lodged 777W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 778W an appeal against detention or removal would require The Government’s Drug Strategy sets out a multifaceted the examination of individual case files which would approach to tackling drug use under three themes: incur a disproportionate cost. reducing demand, restricting supply and building recovery. FRANK, the drug information and advice service, Immigration has information on tranquillisers (which includes Rohypnol) available on its website at: Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home www.talktofrank.com Department when the UK Border Agency intends to We are currently running a campaign to promote the resolve the case of Mr Garfield Rainford. [79437] FRANK service.

Damian Green: In order to safeguard an individual’s Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill personal information and comply with the data protection Act 1998, the UK Border Agency is unable to provide an update on an individual case when responding to a Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for parliamentary question. The UK Border Agency will the Home Department what plans she has to provide write to the right hon. Member to provide an update on additional resources to the police as a result of the case. implementation of the proposals in the Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill. [70852]

Immigration: Port of Hull James Brokenshire: The new system of terrorism prevention and investigation measures (TPIMs) will be Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the accompanied by significant additional funding for both Home Department how many people entering the UK the police and Security Service. We do not provide through the Port of Hull were subject to full e-scan detailed breakdowns of the money we provide for specific checks between July and November 2011. [81086] security activities as this would provide information about our capabilities and techniques which could Damian Green: All passengers entering the UK through undermine national security. the Port of Hull between July and November 2011 were subject to full immigration checks. UK Border Agency: Security

Rohypnol Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department at which points of entry the UK David Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for the Border Force used Level 2 security checks under her Home Department (1) what steps she is taking to reduce pilot scheme of summer 2011 to screen (a) EEA and the illegal use of Rohypnol; and what awareness campaigns (b) non-EEA passengers attempting to enter the UK; she proposes to run; [85999] how often it used such checks; and on what dates. (2) what studies her Department has undertaken on [81059] the illegal use of Rohypnol; [86000] Damian Green: The Level 2 risk based pilot measures (3) whether she has recently reviewed the classification applied to EEA nationals were available to all UK of the drug Rohypnol; [86001] ports. The following ports made use of them between (4) what assessment she has made of recent trends in 29 July and 4 November 2011: the illegal use of Rohypnol. [86002] Aberdeen Airport James Brokenshire: Flunitrazepam (‘Rohypnol’), together Edinburgh Airport with the other benzodiazepines, is a class C drug under Manchester Airport the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. The Advisory Council Belfast International Airport on the Misuse of Drugs informs the Secretary of State East Midlands Airport for the Home Department, my right hon. Friend the Newcastle Airport Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), and keeps under Birmingham Airport review the situation in the UK with respect to controlled Gatwick Airport drugs, including benzodiazepines. Its report “Drug Newhaven Ferry Port Facilitated Sexual Assault” (2007) considered the use of benzodiazepines and indicated that adequate controls Bournemouth Airport are in place for these drugs. The report is available at: Glasgow Airport http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/alcohol-drugs/ Norwich International Airport drugs/acmd1/drug-facilitated-sexual-assault/ Bristol Airport This Government are committed to tackling sexual Harwich Ferry Terminal offences, and other forms of violence against women Plymouth Ferry Terminal and girls. The 2003 Sexual Offences Act makes it a Brussels separate offence to give someone any substance without Heathrow Airport their consent and with the intention of stupefying them Poole Ferry Terminal so that sexual activity can take place. We are also working closely with the Association of Chief Police Calais Officers to look at ways to improve police investigations Leeds Bradford Airport of rape, including cases where drugs are a contributing Portsmouth Ferry Terminal factor. Cardiff Airport 779W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 780W

Liverpool John Lennon Airport since May 2010; what the (i) purpose and (ii) duration Prestwick Airport is of each secondment; and whether each secondment Coquelles was to a policy development role. [86137] London City Airport Mr Simon Burns: Since May 2010, the Department Stansted Airport has not seconded anyone in from industry. Dunkerque Five or fewer staff have been seconded in from the London Luton Airport third sector during this period. No individual seconded The Secretary of State for the Home Department, my from the third sector is working in a policy development right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs role. May), has ordered an investigation into all the circumstances relating to the relaxation of border controls. It would be Doctors inappropriate to release any further information at this stage. Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps he will take to reduce the time taken in allocating jobs to newly-qualified doctors. [86224] HEALTH Anne Milton: The United Kingdom Foundation Ambulance Services: Training Programme Office is responsible for defining the national application process and timetable. Key influences on Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health timing are the dates on which UK medical schools which ambulance trusts have opted to use (a) Trauma announce results for final medical degree examinations Risk Management and (b) Applied Suicide Intervention and the dates on which the General Medical Council Skills Training; and if he will make a statement. [86532] schedules examinations to ensure international medical graduates demonstrate they have the necessary skills Mr Simon Burns: This is an operational matter for and knowledge to practise medicine in the UK. Everyone local ambulance trusts. As such, this information is not involved in the national application process makes every held centrally. endeavour to ensure that medical graduates know where they will be working at the earliest date possible. Departmental Pay Hospital Beds Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the monetary value is of bonuses paid to Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for staff in his Department for work on the national IT Health pursuant to the answer of 30 November 2011, scheme in the last 12 months. [86518] Official Report, columns 960-2W, on hospital beds, if he will assess the reasons for delayed hospital discharge Mr Simon Burns: It is presumed that the hon. Member in May 2010. [86517] is referring to staff within the Department working on the National Programme for Information Technology. Paul Burstow: Monthly delayed transfers of care data No bonuses were paid to such staff in the last 12 months. have been collected since August 2010. Prior to August 2010 delayed transfers of care data were weekly unvalidated Departmental Secondment management information. The equivalent monthly data for May 2010 have been provided in the following Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State tables, which are the weekly snapshot of patient numbers for Health what secondments there have been to his at midnight on Thursday in the week ending 30 May Department from (a) industry and (b) the third sector 2010.

Delayed transfers of care (DTOC) by reason, England England level data Number of patients with a DTOC at Number of delayed days during the midnight on the last Thursday of the reporting period month Social Social Type of care Reason for delay NHS care Both NHS care Both

Acute — 1,525 439 125 — — — Non-acute — 942 773 128 — — —

Acute (A) Awaiting completion of 281 119 95 — — — assessment (B) Awaiting public funding 31 35 4 — — — (C) Awaiting further non- 551 0 0 — — — acute (including PCT and mental health) NHS care (including intermediate care, rehabilitation services etc) (Dii) Awaiting nursing home 105 72 14 — — — placement or availability 781W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 782W

Delayed transfers of care (DTOC) by reason, England England level data Number of patients with a DTOC at Number of delayed days during the midnight on the last Thursday of the reporting period month Social Social Type of care Reason for delay NHS care Both NHS care Both

(Di) Awaiting residential 65 92 0 — — — home placement or availability (E) Awaiting care package in 53 106 9 — — — own home (F) Awaiting community 5163——— equipment and adaptations (G) Patient or family choice 348 9 0 — — — (H) Disputes 14 0 0 — — — (I) Housing—patients not 2600——— covered by NHS and Community Care Act

Non-acute (A) Awaiting completion of 113 155 49 — — — assessment (B) Awaiting public funding 61 90 28 — — — (C) Awaiting further non- 144 0 0 — — — acute (including PCT and mental health) NHS care (including intermediate care, rehabilitation services etc) (Dii) Awaiting nursing home 106 102 20 — — — placement or availability (Di) Awaiting residential 101 199 0 — — — home placement or availability (E) Awaiting care package In 28 152 27 — — — own home (F) Awaiting community 46 18 4 — — — equipment and adaptations (G) Patient or family choice 205 45 0 — — — (H) Disputes 31 12 0 — — — (I) Housing—patients not 107 0 0 — — — covered by NHS and Community Care Act

(2) what meetings he has had with ministerial colleagues Number of on cross-Government steps to achieve each of the six Number of patients delayed shared objectives contained in his Department’s mental withaDTOCat days health outcomes strategy. [86539] midnight on the last during the Thursday of the reporting month period Paul Burstow: There have been no formal meetings between the Secretary of State for Health, the right Acute — 2,089 — hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley), Non-acute — 1,843 — and Ministers in other Government Departments in Total — 3,932 — relation to implementation of the mental health strategy. Notes: Officials across all the relevant Government Departments 1. Summary: Delayed transfers of care (DTOC) by who the delay is attributable to (NHS, Social care or Both) and by the reasons for the meet regularly to co-ordinate activity and implementation delay. of the strategy. 2. Period: May 2010 The strategy’s objectives are designed to be seen Source: Unify2 data collection—WSitDT (week ending 30 May 2010) together, building a coherent picture of better mental health outcomes, rather than being seen in isolation. Much of the work currently under way will help to meet the strategy’s objectives as a whole. Examples include: Mental Health Services the recently-published ‘NHS Operating Framework for 2012-13’ which highlights mental health services and specifically ‘No health without Mental Health’ and makes it clear that this Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for Health should be a priority for primary care trust commissioning. (1) what steps he has taken to meet each of the six ensuring that mental health is reflected in the outcomes framework shared objectives contained in his Department’s mental for the national health service, and in the outcomes framework health outcomes strategy; [86538] for public health and the draft framework for adult social care. 783W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 784W

working, alongside the NHS Confederation and others, to John Penrose: There have been no secondments to support the implementation through the introduction of Payment this Department from industry and the third sector by Results and improved outcome measures for mental health. since May 2010. work across Government to address the wider determinants of mental health. FIFA: Corruption We have established a ministerial advisory group for the mental health strategy to work in partnership to realise the strategy.This group includes senior representation Mr Gale: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, from other Government Departments. Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment he has In October 2011, this group agreed proposals to made of the findings of the International Olympic develop an implementation framework for the strategy. Committee investigation into corruption within FIFA; This will be produced by a number of national mental and if he will make a statement. [86554] health organisations, in partnership with Government. The framework is due for publication in spring 2012. Hugh Robertson: The Secretary of State for Culture, The group receives regular updates on the wide range Olympics, Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the of work which contributes to meeting the objectives of Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), and I are the strategy. Meeting papers and minutes for this group aware of the recent action that the International Olympic are published on the Department’s website: Committee (IOC) Executive Board has taken following the IOC Ethics Committee’s investigation of cash payments www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ received by two IOC members from a sports marketing PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_127788 agency. I applaud the IOC for their efforts in this area. Occupational Health: Research We are also aware that one of those members is a standing FIFA committee member and urge FIFA to Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Health deliver on the reform process announced earlier this what recent assessment has he made of levels of support year. for research into occupational health. [81613] Olympic Games 2012 Chris Grayling: I have been asked to reply. HSE has a budget of £11 million for applied research Mark Menzies: To ask the Secretary of State for in 2011-12 and the major part is devoted to occupational Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what representations health. Further details can be found on the HSE website he has received on the long-term benefits of the London at: 2012 Olympic games opening ceremony to the economy. http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/content/science-plan-2011.pdf [86400] HSE’s occupational research programme is informed by contacts with other funding bodies active in this area Hugh Robertson: The Olympic opening ceremony, as to identify synergies and potential gaps in knowledge. well as the other Olympic and Paralympic ceremonies, are a unique opportunity to showcase the best of the UK to a global audience and boost the games business and tourism legacy. It is estimated that the ceremonies NORTHERN IRELAND will broadcast to an audience of 4 billion people, and Departmental Secondment could be worth up to £5 billion in advertising value.

Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for for Northern Ireland what secondments there have Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what information been to his Department from (a) industry and (b) the his Department holds on in which country is the London third sector since May 2010; what the (i) purpose and 2012 Olympic flame burner will be manufactured. (ii) duration is of each secondment; and whether each [86552] secondment was to a policy development role. [86144] Hugh Robertson: The London 2012 Organising Mr Paterson: Since May 2010, there have been no Committee has confirmed that both the Olympic torch secondments to my Department from either industry or and cauldron are designed, manufactured and engineered the third sector. by UK companies. They will showcase British creativity, ingenuity, and production across the UK and around the world. The Olympic torch is designed in Hackney, engineered in Basildon and manufactured in Coventry. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Only one small part inside the cauldron will be supplied by a company outside the UK following a competitive Departmental Secondment tender process. Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Olympic Games 2012: Wales for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what secondments there have been to his Department from (a) industry and (b) the third sector since May 2010; Hywel Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for what the (i) purpose and (ii) duration is of each Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent assessment secondment; and whether each secondment was to a he has made of the legacy for Wales of the London policy development role. [86143] 2012 Olympic games. [86200] 785W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 786W

Hugh Robertson: Wales and the whole of the UK are British farming and encourage sustainable food production’. already benefiting from the economic, sporting and This is embedded in much of the work that the Department cultural opportunities generated by the 2012 games, carries out. with 848 schools and colleges in Wales already registered Within Government we have introduced new guidance as part of the London 2012 education programme “Get on sustainable food procurement so that Government Set”. 79 projects in Wales have also been awarded the Departments source food, subject to no overall increase Inspire Mark, including Criw Cymru, a project run in in costs, that meets British or equivalent standards of partnership with Galeri, Caernarfon and Theatre production—for example ’Red Tractor’. Brycheiniog in Brecon. We have also encouraged the voluntary code for the In addition, 10 businesses registered in Wales have labelling of certain products with the true country of won work directly supplying the Olympic Delivery origin and supported the EU food Information Regulation Authority. These include Euroclad, which provided the which makes country of origin labelling mandatory for external cladding for the Olympic stadium and Williamson fresh meat. EU rules prevent the Government from Technical Services which provided specialist site services promoting “Buy British” campaigns, however the Levy for the stadium. Many other businesses based in Wales Boards do carry out promotional campaigns on behalf have secured contracts to supply goods or services of UK producers. within the London 2012 supply chain. I am sure that you would join me in congratulating these companies Agriculture: Apprentices on securing London 2012 contracts. S4C Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent Hywel Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for discussions she has had on increasing the number of Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent discussions apprenticeships in the agricultural sector. [85431] he has had on the availability of S4C to television viewers outside Wales. [86202] Mr Paice: The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Mr Vaizey: The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Member for Meriden (Mrs Spelman), has discussed Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for apprenticeships in the agricultural sector within her South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), is aware that S4C is wider discussions on the food chain with the Food and available outside Wales on Sky, Freesat and the internet. Drink Federation, the Farmers’ Club, IGD Policy Issues While he has had no formal discussions specifically on Council and the Women’s Food and Farming Union. this matter, the subject has been raised in the context of The ministerial team have also had discussions with the the reforms to S4C. National Federation of YoungFarmers Clubs, the National Skills Academy for Food and Drink and the IGD skills group on a number of issues including apprenticeships.

SCOTLAND Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency: South West Big Society

Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Chope: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Scotland what steps he is taking to promote the big Food and Rural Affairs what steps she is taking to address the concerns raised by the National Farmers society initiative in Scotland. [86426] Union on the effectiveness of the operation of the Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency in David Mundell: Scotland Office Ministers and officials the South West. [81299] have met social enterprises, voluntary organisations, local authorities and others to discuss their engagement with various Government policies. Mr Paice: AHVLA need to make significant efficiency savings to meet their spending review targets in future I have hosted a series of roundtable events in towns years. The restructuring of their operations in the South across Scotland to discuss the ideas that underpin the West is one aspect of this work and includes consolidating big society. some of the administrative work in Exeter. Similar changes have been undertaken in other regions previously, and have delivered significant efficiency savings without negative service impacts. The Agency is confident that ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS the same benefits can be achieved in the South West Agricultural Products once changes are fully in place. Up to the end of September performance in most Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for areas in the region was improving. Ongoing problems Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps she is with the new IT system (Sam) functionality, which went taking to encourage UK businesses to buy agricultural live at the end of September 2011, have unfortunately products produced in the UK. [82854] had an adverse impact on the quality of some services. To address service issues, experienced staff are working Mr Paice: The Government are supportive of a overtime and additional temporary staff have been competitive agricultural industry, and DEFRA’s first employed to support activities. Performance standards business plan commitment is to ’support and develop are now improving. 787W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 788W

Key stakeholders such as the South West NFU are Mr Paice: The submission of the final report, which being kept informed by AHVLA managers at regional will include details of the critical phase of the analysis, meetings and via regular verbal updates. has been delayed as a result of difficulties in obtaining all the necessary data on continuously housed dairy farming in the UK. However, we are now expecting to Animal Welfare: Slaughterhouses receive a substantive update from the researchers at the end of the year. The Department intends to publicise Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for the results along with any necessary commentary in due Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the course. I would be happy to place a copy of these in the answer of 3 October 2011, Official Report, column Library of the House as soon as they are available. 1404W, on slaughterhouses: CCTV, what specific steps she is taking to prevent breaches of the law in Departmental Audit slaughterhouses; and if she will make it her policy to report on progress in the implementation of such steps. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for [80878] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many internal audits have taken place (a) in her Department and (b) Mr Paice: I can confirm we remain committed to in the non-departmental bodies for which her Department ensuring high standards of welfare in all slaughterhouses is responsible in the last 12 months; and if she will make and abuse of animals anywhere, including slaughterhouses, a statement. [82545] is unacceptable. Welfare in slaughterhouses is currently subject to the Richard Benyon: The number of internal audits reported requirements of the Welfare of Animals (Slaughter or upon in the period 1 November 2010 to 31 October Killing) Regulations 1995, which are enforced in 2011 was (a) 38 in core DEFRA and (b) 221 in the slaughterhouses by the Food Standards Agency acting executive agencies, non-departmental public bodies and on behalf of the Secretary of State. DEFRA and the public corporations that DEFRA is responsible for Food Standards Agency are working closely on how (excluding the National Parks). this issue is to be resolved, including the development of an Enforcement Strategy to make clear what steps will Departmental Risk Assessment be taken in the event of animal welfare breaches being found. The Food Standards Agency has also recently Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for completed a survey of animal welfare standards in Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what risk registers slaughterhouses, which will be published in early 2012. are held by the public bodies for which her Department Council Regulation 1099/2009 on the protection of is responsible; and if she will make a statement. [85704] animals at the time of killing comes into effect on 1 January 2013. This requires us to lay down rules on Richard Benyon: As part of good corporate governance, penalties which are effective, proportionate and dissuasive. the Boards of DEFRA’s executive non-departmental We are currently developing proposals for implementation public bodies review the major risks to their organisation’s and are considering the role administrative and financial objectives regularly. Information on the type of risks penalties might play alongside criminal prosecutions each organisation faces is contained in their annual for welfare breaches. Our aim will be to ensure sanctions reports or business plans. From 1 April 2012, annual can be applied in a way that ensures immediate action is reports will contain a governance statement which will taken to resolve the issue, or halts production until the describe the organisation’s risk environment and the problem has been addressed. We will consult on these key risks it is facing. proposals in the normal way next year. In addition to corporate-level risks, NDPBs will hold Many slaughterhouses have, or are in the process of, risk information for their major projects. installing CCTV and this is to be welcomed. Regulation 1099/2009 introduces new monitoring requirements in Dogs slaughterhouses and CCTV does have an important role to play alongside other methods, in providing inconspicuous monitoring. Our review of the role CCTV Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State can play, including consideration of whether CCTV for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many should be made mandatory, is continuing in that context. dog wardens were employed in each of the last five years. [80999]

Dairy Farming: Animal Welfare Mr Paice: This information is not held centrally by DEFRA. Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she Fisheries: Accidents has received interim findings of the research which her Department commissioned the Scottish Agricultural Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, College to undertake on the management and welfare Food and Rural Affairs what information her Department of continuously housed dairy cows; when she plans to holds on the number of serious accidents and fatalities publish the results of that research; whether the reported in the commercial fishing sector in each of the Government plans to issue a response to the research last three years. [85153] after it is published; and if she will make a statement. [86185] Mike Penning: I have been asked to reply. 789W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 790W

The Marine Accident Investigation Branch of the Robert Neill: I have been asked to reply. Department for Transport is responsible for receiving A detailed list of what minerals were extracted by reports of accidents involving registered fishing vessels which quarries and mines may be found in the British and their crews. Geological Survey’s Directory of Mines and Quarries For the three years for which complete data are 2010 which can be accessed at: available, the figures are: http://www.bgs.ac.uk/mineralsuk/mines/dmq.html The directory indicates that there were over 1,250 Accidents to Injuries Fatalities vessels active mines and quarries in England in 2010 (excluding rail heads and wharves), extracting 22 types of mineral. 2008 52 8 257 The minerals extracted included coal, sand and gravel, 2009 62 13 238 limestone, peat, clay and shale, sandstone, chalk, slate, 2010 40 5 268 silica sand, china clay and igneous and metamorphic rock. Flood Control Sustainable Development Commission: Finance Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she expects Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for the Pitt Review Working Group to report on the potential Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether the decision of natural flood management. [86513] to withdraw funding to the Sustainable Development Commission was reported to the European Commission Richard Benyon: Sir Michael Pitt’s recommendation under the EU Sustainable Development Strategy. was that DEFRA, the Environment Agency and Natural [84043] England should work with partners to establish a programme through Catchment Flood Management Mr Paice: The decision to withdraw funding from the Plans and Shoreline Management Plans to achieve greater Sustainable Development Commission was reported at working with natural processes. In response, the EU level through the European Sustainable Development Environment Agency and DEFRA established a working Network, which brings together key sustainable group to improve the understanding of natural processes development (SD) representatives from member states. in flood and coastal erosion risk management. In March 2010, this working group published guidance for Sustainable Development: EU Action practitioners which includes examples of good practice. This is available on the Environment Agency’s website Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for at: Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what progress http://publications.environment-agency.gov.uk/PDF/ she has made in implementing the EU Sustainable GEHO0310BSFI-E-E.pdf Development Strategy. [84042] A final report, which includes a summary of progress to date and suggestions of where further work would be Mr Paice: In February this year, the Government beneficial, will be published at the end of March 2012. announced their vision for mainstreaming sustainable development (SD) and ensuring that our policies take Food: Waste account of social, environmental and economic factors. Through this package we lead by example to reduce the Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for impact of the Government estate on the environment Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps she is and ensure that we procure more efficient and sustainable taking to reduce levels of household food waste. products. We engage with suppliers to understand and [86379] reduce the impacts of supply chains, while providing information and support for businesses and communities Mr Paice: The Government are providing advice to to do the same. consumers through WRAP’s “Love Food Hate Waste” campaign, working with the industry to improve products The UK is making good progress in developing and and practices that help households waste less through implementing policies that align with the objectives of the Courtauld Commitment, and developing the evidence- the EU SD Strategy, and demonstrate the Government’s base on food waste causes and quantities. commitment to a sustainable future. In September, DEFRA published guidance on food In June, DEFRA published the Natural Environment date markings. This will help manufacturers apply clearer White Paper which recognised that a healthy, properly and consistent dates, making it easier for consumers to functioning natural environment is the foundation of understand the meaning of the markings, and therefore sustained economic growth, prospering communities reducing food waste. and personal wellbeing. The White Paper sets outs an ambitious programme of action covering the next 50 years On 15 November, WRAP announced a 1.1 million and ensures that the value of nature is properly taken tonne, or 13%, reduction in annual UK household food into account when developing policies. waste since 2006. At an international level, DEFRA is leading on Mining preparations for the Rio+20 conference on SD in 2012, working with our EU partners to ensure ambitious and Stephen Mosley: To ask the Secretary of State for action-focused outcomes are achieved next year. The Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many mines Government will continue to work closely with other were in use in England in 2010; and what minerals were countries to ensure that SD remains at the top of the quarried from each such mine. [86600] EU and international agenda. 791W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 792W

Timber: EU Law Mr Gauke: An estimated 308,000 taxpayers are liable to Income tax at the 50% additional rate in the United Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Kingdom in 2011-12. In the East Midlands, which Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she has contains the Leicester South constituency the estimate established a timetable for the passage of her proposed is 12,000. These and estimates for other UK Government legislation to implement the provisions of the EU office regions are published on the HMRC website in Illegal Timber (Due Diligence) Regulation in the UK. tables 2.1 and 2.2 which are available at the following [85769] addresses; http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/income_tax/table2-1.pdf Mr Paice: The detailed implementing regulations to http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/income_tax/table2-2.pdf prevent the first placing of illegally logged timber on the EU market need to be agreed by June 2012. Once Reliable estimates are not available at the parliamentary agreed, the necessary secondary legislation will be put constituency level, due to greater uncertainties in projections in place to implement the regulation in the UK. Under for small geographical areas and small sample sizes. its provisions, the EU Timber Regulation must be These estimates are based on the 2007-08 Survey of implemented by 3 March 2013. Personal Incomes, projected using economic assumptions consistent with the Office for Budget Responsibility’s Trees: Disease Control March 2011 economic and fiscal outlook. Estimates of income and tax by parliamentary Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for constituency for 2007-08 and preceding years are available Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment in table 3.1 5: she has made of evidence that trees damaged by grey http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/income_distribution/menu-by- squirrels are particularly prone to infection by phytopthora year.htm ramorum and that grey squirrels are carrying disease spores from tree to tree; and what steps her Department is taking in response to that evidence. [85870] Revenue Customs: Telephone Services

Mr Paice: The Forestry Commission, which has statutory responsibility for the protection of forest trees and Steve Brine: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer timber, carries out aerial surveys to identify tree dieback pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Shipley indicating possible Phytophthora infection. Follow up of 6 July 2010, Official Report, column 513W, on work has determined that over 300 of the sites surveyed Revenue and Customs: telephone numbers, what the had squirrel damage but found no evidence to suggest terms of reference are of his Department’s review of its that there is a link between this damage and Phytophthora telephone numbering strategy; and if he will make a infection. On only 3.5% of sites surveyed are there statement. [86195] suggestions of the co-occurrence of squirrel damage and Phytophthora infection, which does not demonstrate Mr Gauke: HMRC initiated an internal and informal cause and effect. review of it’s numbering strategy for customer facing helplines in January 2010 with the twin objectives of: reducing the cost to vulnerable customers of calling HMRC, where that can be delivered at an appropriate balance with TREASURY HMRC costs and business performance; improving the sustainability of it’s Contact Centre business, by Freight: Tees Valley anticipating and mitigating future business costs associated with its numbering strategy. Helen Goodman: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer The Government subsequently accepted the what the cost to the public purse is of constructing and recommendations of the Treasury Sub-Committee in developing the Tees Multimodal Bio-Freight Terminal. their 16th report “Administration and effectiveness of [85345] HM revenue and Customs” (HC731) published on 30 July 2011 that HMRC investigate alternatives to Mr Prisk: I have been asked to reply. 0845 numbers, including 0345 and freephone numbers, A conditional award has been made to developing as part of the process of agreeing its next telephony(due the Tees Multimodal Bio-Freight Terminal project in in June 2013) and that as an that as an interim measure round 1 of the Regional Growth Fund (RGF). The final the Department should examine whether a non-0845 amount of public RGF funding for this project will be number could be provided for tax credit claimants. released when the company complete their due diligence The full text of the Government response was published and receive a final grant offer letter which is expected by by the Committee on 26 October 2011 (HC1533) and is end December. available at http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/ Income Tax: Leicester cmselect/cmtreasy/1533/153303.htm Additionally and further to my answer to the hon. Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Chancellor of the Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) of 19 October Exchequer how many residents in Leicester South 2011, Official Report, column 967W, I can now confirm constituency paid income tax at the 50 pence rate in the that HMRC introduced a new 0345 prefixed number for latest period for which figures are available. [86473] its tax credit helpline on 8 December 2012. 793W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 794W

Working Tax Credit: Females All of these reports can be found under the Veterans section of the Defence Analytical Services and Advice Jessica Morden: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (DASA) website: what estimate he has made of the number of people http://www.dasa.mod.uk//applications/newWeb/www/ who receive working tax credits in Wales; and what index.php?page=66&pubType=3 proportion of these are female. [86651] Departmental Pay Mr Gauke: The following table shows the gender breakdown of households receiving working tax credit in Wales: Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Number of in-work households benefiting from working tax credit in Justice whether his Department records the names of Wales, by gender private companies to which former senior managers in Thousand Pay Band D upwards in his Department have moved. [86605] Single female 72.9 Single male 16.1 Mr Blunt: The Business Appointment Rules, set out Couple 169.3 in the Civil Service Management Code, place requirements Total 258.3 on all serving civil servants, and on former civil servants for two years after their last day of service, who intend to take an outside appointment or employment after leaving the civil service. Before accepting any new PRIME MINISTER appointment or employment, they must consider whether Ministers: Conduct the rules require them to apply for approval. The circumstances are set out in the Civil Service Management Mr Bone: To ask the Prime Minister whether he has Code and the level of approval required differs according considered bringing forward proposals to change the to seniority. Ministerial Code in respect of the announcement of All applications received are recorded, including the new Government policy. [86419] name of the company or organisation intending to make the appointment. The Prime Minister: The Ministerial Code states that when Parliament is in Session the most important announcements of Government policy should be made, Prisoners: Repatriation in the first instance, in Parliament. Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) whether EU citizens serving custodial sentences in prisons in England and Wales before the commencement JUSTICE of the EU Prisoner Transfer Agreement will be liable Crimes of Violence: Ex-servicemen for repatriation to their country of origin; [84291] (2) which countries will be ready for the transfer of Laura Sandys: To ask the Secretary of State for prisoners under the EU Prisoner Transfer Agreement. Justice what information his Department holds on the [84292] number of former armed service personnel who were convicted of violent offences in each year since 1997. Mr Blunt: Council Framework Decision 2008/909/JHA, [86535] which will govern the transfer of prisoners between member states of the European Union, enters into force Mr Djanogly: The Ministry of Justice Court Proceedings from 5 December. Transitional arrangements set out in Database holds information on offences provided by the Framework Decision enable member states to enter the statutes under which proceedings are brought but a declaration on its application. We understand that not all the circumstances of each case. It is not possible most member states will be applying the Framework to identify from this centrally held court proceedings Decision only to those prisoners sentenced after the information whether a defendant was formerly a member implementation date of 5 December 2011. of Her Majesty’s armed forces. An official list of those member states ready to However, in January 2010, the Ministry of Justice implement the Framework Decision is not yet available. (MOJ) and Ministry of Defence (MOD) published the Our latest information indicates that the majority of initial results of a joint study to estimate how many member states will implement the Framework Decision prisoners in England and Wales had been in the regular in 2012/13 as their implementing legislation is enacted. armed forces. In September 2010 a more detailed report was published. Reoffenders These reports were based on a one off study, matching MOJ prison population and MOD veterans’ data to estimate the number of veterans in prison as at 6 Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for November 2009. A similar one-off study was carried Justice pursuant to the answer of 9 November 2011, out to estimate the number of veterans under Probation Official Report, column 394W, on reoffenders, what Service supervision, with results published on 16 March plans he has to compare reoffending rates for offenders 2011; the scope of this study did not include estimating involved in the Intensive Alternative to Custody pilots the number of court reports relating to former armed with reoffending rates for similar offenders receiving service personnel. custodial sentences of less than 12 months. [86628] 795W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 796W

Mr Blunt: I refer the hon. Member to the reply given (2) when he expects the Warrior upgrade to be on 9 November 2011, Official Report, column 394W completed. [85429] and the answer given today to PQ 86485. The MOJ is still looking at the feasibility of conducting an evaluation Peter Luff: Delivery of vehicles upgraded through of the IAC pilots to compare reoffending rates for IAC the Warrior Capability Sustainment programme will offenders with reoffending rates for similar offenders commence in 2018. Following a period of training and receiving custodial sentences of less than 12 months. integration, an armoured infantry company equipped with the upgraded Warriors is planned to be fully Reoffenders: Alternatives to Prosecution operational by 2020. Delivery of all of the upgraded vehicles is currently planned to be completed in 2022. Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what proportion of offenders who have completed Defence: Procurement intensive alternative to custody pilots subsequently re-offended in the latest period for which figures are available. [86485] Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how many sole sourced procurement contracts Mr Blunt: The MOJ is currently looking at the feasibility have been awarded in the last 10 years; which companies of conducting an outcome evaluation of the IAC pilots were invited to tender; where those companies are based; which would compare reoffending rates for IAC offenders and what the value of the contract was; [70848] with reoffending rates for similar offenders receiving (2) how many sole sourced procurement contracts custodial sentences of less than 12 months. went over budget in each of the last 10 years; and by In July 2011, the MOJ published a short report with how much each such contract went over budget; [70850] the main findings from a range of research exploring (3) what the cost to the public purse was of sole the learning from the Intensive Alternatives to Custody sourced contracts that went over budget in each of the (IAC) pilot schemes. last 10 years shown as a proportion of his Department’s http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/research-and-analysis/ (a) procurement budget and (b) budget. [70851] moj/intensive-alternatives-custody.htm The process evaluations covering the seven IAC pilot Peter Luff: An estimated 59,700 new sole-source contracts sites are currently being concluded and will be published were awarded between financial year 2001-02 to 2011-12, in due course. with a total estimated value of £53.6 billion. The other information requested is not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. The detailed regulations governing the Ministry of Defence’s (MOD) DEFENCE sole-source procurement arrangements are currently being reviewed by the MOD, and the noble lord, Lord Currie Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations of Marylebone has recently published his independent review of these arrangements. The conclusions, which Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for are currently under consideration, include as a key Defence what discussions he has had with his counterpart requirement improved collection and analysis of data in Uzbekistan on the withdrawal of UK military equipment and financial information on all our sole-source contracts. from Afghanistan via rail; and if he will make a statement. This will ensure that the MOD is better placed to [85226] respond to such requests in the future. The National Audit Office (NAO) undertakes an Mr Philip Hammond: There has been no ministerial-level annual review of major Defence equipment projects, a engagement with the Uzbek authorities on the subject proportion of which are sole-source. As an example, the of the withdrawal of UK military equipment from NAO’s 2010 Major Projects Report included analysis of Afghanistan by rail. a number of sole-source contracts—Type 45 destroyer, The highest level engagement by Ministry of Defence Queen Elizabeth Class carrier and Lynx Wildcat helicopter. officials has been by the assistant chief of Defence staff The NAO reports are available on their external website (Logistic Operations), the two-star military officer at: responsible for the support of UK forces in Afghanistan http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/1011/ and the efficient and cost-effective draw-down of those major_projects_report_2010.aspx forces. As part of a wider programme of liaison with countries in central Asia, the present and previous Departmental Official Hospitality incumbents of that post have visited Uzbekistan three times, in August 2010, March 2011 and November 2011, to conduct discussions with Uzbek officials, including Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence the Defence Minister. These discussions have included what receptions and events have been hosted by his the role that Uzbekistan might play in the draw-down Department since May 2010, including those sponsored of UK forces in Afghanistan but to date no decisions by a third party. [84174] have been taken on the way forward. Mr Robathan: This information could be provided Armoured Fighting Vehicles only at disproportionate cost. We do not keep a central record of all receptions and events hosted by the Ministry Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for of Defence (MOD), but they may include engagement Defence (1) when he expects the first upgraded Warrior with foreign governments, open days, air shows, military to be fully operational; [85428] tattoos and commemorative occasions. 797W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 798W

Our current rules are that the offering of hospitality ISTAR at any event funded by the MOD will be authorised only in exceptional cases. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) what ISTAR will be created by his Department’s Departmental Risk Assessment Solomon programme; [86280] (2) what estimate he has made of the cost to the Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence public purse of the Solomon programme. [86281] what risk registers are held by the public bodies for which his Department is responsible; and if he will Peter Luff: The Solomon programme is designed to make a statement. [85702] improve the efficiency, effectiveness, quality and timeliness of intelligence delivered to the commander. Capabilities Mr Robathan: The following Ministry of Defence include improved intelligence requirements management, (MOD) public bodies keep risk registers relating to the tasking of intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition management and mitigation of risk in delivering their and reconnaissance assets, provision of imagery and business: electronic surveillance capabilities, improved connections Defence Support Group (trading fund) between deployed and fixed intelligence communities, Defence Science and Technology Laboratory (trading fund) and enhanced interoperability with allies. National Army Museum (executive non-departmental public Approved costs to date are £8 million for programme body) support over four years and some £40 million for a Oil and Pipelines Agency (public corporation) number of project activities. Details on the estimated total expenditure will not be known until each project Royal Air Force Museum (executive non-departmental public body) within the Solomon programme reaches its main investment decision. UK Hydrographic Office (trading fund). In addition, the National Museum of the Royal Navy Lynx Helicopters (an executive non-departmental public body) is planning to introduce a risk register. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for The MOD operates a risk management process that Defence how many Lynx light attack helicopters he ensures risks are identified, assessed, controlled and plans to convert from the battlefield reconnaissance (when necessary) escalated up the command chain for version; and what the conversion cost will be for each information or mitigating action. such helicopter. [85589] Most of our public bodies have no management need for a formal risk register as their function is principally Peter Luff: We are planning to increase numbers of to act as advisory bodies with risk being managed Wildcat helicopters being purchased from 62 to 66. The centrally in the Department. fleet will consist of three types: 28 Helicopter Maritime Attack, 30 Army Helicopter (AH), and eight Light Assault Helicopter (LAH). Four of the LAH aircraft Falkland Islands were previously to have been AH type. The costs of conversion are still under consideration. Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) what recent assessment he has made of the RAF Wittering level of potential military threat to British sovereignty over the Falklands Islands; what military resources the Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for UK has available to defend the Islands at short notice; Defence what plans he has for the use of RAF Wittering; what substitute sources of deployable airpower remain and if he will make a statement. [86589] in the absence of aircraft carriers; and if he will make a statement; [86210] Nick Harvey: RAF Wittering has a continued future (2) what arrangements are in place to defend (a) UK as a RAF station hosting a range of units including the military assets on the Falkland Islands from attack RAF’s expeditionary engineering and logistics. Additionally, from (i) airborne, (ii) special and (ii) naval forces and to maximise the use of resources, Headquarters 12 (Air (b) the air link to the Falklands Islands from potential Support) Engineer Group will relocate to RAF Wittering surface-to-air threats from ships operating in international from Waterbeach Barracks during the summer of 2013. waters. [86211] Rescue Services

Nick Harvey [holding answer 12 December 2011]: Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for The Ministry of Defence undertakes regular assessments Defence what (a) rotary and (b) fixed-wing assets are of potential military threats to the Falkland Islands to tasked to combat search and rescue. [85587] ensure that we retain appropriate levels of defensive capabilities to address any such threats. Peter Luff: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) does A range of military assets are deployed in defence of not currently dedicate rotary or fixed wing assets to the the Falkland Islands, including air defence aircraft, combat search and rescue role. Were a requirement to naval vessels and ground forces. These assets are capable generate such a standing commitment be identified the of defending themselves and ensuring the security and MOD would allocate assets from its broad spectrum of territorial integrity of the Islands and its population. capabilities according to the nature of the environment We also retain the ability to reinforce these assets with within which they were required to operate; this could additional deployed forces, including air power, if required. be carried out by Merlin or Chinook helicopters. A 799W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 800W combat recovery capability is in place in Afghanistan including heating, lighting, appliances and subsidised through the use of Chinook helicopters by the medical DIY loft insulation, but there are no distributional data emergency response team. on these.

Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Carbon Offset Credits (1) how many and which types of (a) rotary wing and (b) fixed-wing aircraft were deployed in the search and Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Secretary of State for rescue operation for the Swanland; and if he will make Energy and Climate Change if the Government will a statement; [86505] take steps to prevent the double counting of carbon (2) whether aircraft deployed in the search and offset credits against both developed country targets rescue operation for the Swanland were carrying and developing country pledges. [86514] EOSDS facilities; whether EOSDS was used during the operation; and if he will make a statement. [86506] Gregory Barker: At the UN convention on climate change meeting in Durban, both developed and developing Nick Harvey: Three RAF and one Royal Navy Sea countries agreed to provide further clarification in 2012 King Search and Rescue (SAR) helicopters were deployed of the mitigation pledges they have tabled to date. For in the search and rescue operation for the Swanland, developed countries this process will specifically include during which both military and civilian assets were clarification of the assumptions and conditions related used. No RAF or Royal Navy fixed-wing aircraft were to the use of carbon credits in meeting pledges. The UK involved. will fully engage in this process with a view to preventing any double counting of credits by advocating robust All four Sea King helicopters were equipped with and comprehensive common accounting rules. Within infra red turrets which were used during the operation the Kyoto protocol rules, emission reductions from as required. This provided an Electro-Optical Surveillance carbon credits under the Clean Development Mechanism and Detection System (EOSDS) capability which transmits can only be used for compliance against developed TV and infra-red video to the crew. country targets. In Durban countries also recognised that, when considering the wider opportunities for using markets ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE to enhance the cost-effectiveness of, and to promote, mitigation actions, such approaches: Boilers: Government Assistance “must meet standards that deliver, real, permanent, additional and verified mitigation outcomes, avoid double counting of effort, and achieve a net decrease and/avoidance of greenhouse gas Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy emissions”1. and Climate Change how many households in (a) 1 ‘Outcome of the work of the Ad Hoc Working Group on Carmarthenshire and (b) Pembrokeshire replaced a Long-term Cooperative Action under the Convention’, paragraph boiler under the boiler scrappage scheme. [85608] 79, p.15: http://unfccc.int/resource/docs/2011/awglca14/eng/l04.pdf Gregory Barker: No boilers were installed in Wales under the English boiler scrappage scheme, which was Community Energy Saving Programme administered by DECC. The Department holds no information on boilers installed under the Welsh boiler Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for scrappage scheme. Energy and Climate Change how many households in (a) England, (b) each local authority area and (c) Carbon Emissions each parliamentary constituency received assistance under the community energy saving programme in (i) 2009-10, Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for (ii) 2010-11 and (iii) since April 2011. [86522] Energy and Climate Change how many households in (a) England, (b) each local authority area and (c) Gregory Barker: The companies obligated under the each parliamentary constituency received assistance under community energy saving programme (September 2009 the carbon emissions reduction target scheme in (i) to December 2012) are not required to report on the 2008-09, (ii) 2009-10, (iii) 2010-11 and (iv) since April number of households benefiting or where their schemes 2011. [86521] are located until after the programme ends in December 2012. Gregory Barker: Data on the number of households However, the companies provide estimates to Ofgem in England, each local authority area and each of their progress towards meeting their obligations, parliamentary constituency, benefiting from cavity wall which Ofgem publish annually. The first of these estimates insulation and loft insulation under the carbon emissions to June 2011 indicated that 9,937 properties had been reduction target scheme in each of the years 2008-09, treated in England (this information is available only at 2009-10 and 2010-11 can be downloaded from the a regional level): following web address: http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/business/Business/ Properties treated Information/Homes-Energy-Efficiency-Database-HEED/ Region (to June 2011) CERT-reports-from-HEED North East 1,611 This information is published by the Energy Saving North West 3,129 Trust on behalf of DECC. Households will also have Yorkshire and Humberside 1,524 benefited from other measures promoted under CERT, 801W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 802W

provided by short-term operating reserve aggregators; Properties treated Region (to June 2011) [86380] (2) on how many occasions representatives of the West Midlands 1,912 National Grid have inspected the metering equipment East Midlands 533 of short-term operating reserve aggregators in the last East of England 193 year; [86381] London 715 South East 41 (3) on how many occasions the National Grid has South West 179 sought penalty payments from short-term operating Total 9,937 reserve aggregators for failing to meet their contractual requirements in the last year. [86382] As CESP schemes take time to set up and complete there were no completed schemes in the period September Charles Hendry: To monitor and despatch services 2009 to June 2010 and all these properties were treated from STOR providers, including aggregators, National in the period July 2010 to June 2011. Grid installs a Standing Reserve Despatch (SRD) system. The next estimate of CESP progress, including the This is connected to the reserve provider’s metering period up to the end of 2011, will be published in May equipment to allow the amount of reserve provided 2012. from the contracted site to be read each minute and Departmental Equality communicated back to National Grid. The rules surrounding the provision of accurate metering Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for signals by all STOR providers (including aggregators) Energy and Climate Change what recent steps his are contained within a contractually enforced document 1 Department has taken to increase equality in his known as the STOR Despatch Procedure . Through the Department; and at what cost to the public purse. rights and obligations placed upon STOR Providers in [86239] this document, National Grid has the right to gain physical access to ascertain the accuracy and adequacy Gregory Barker: DECC is an equal opportunities of the metering equipment providing the metering signals employer and we have a published statement stating and of the resultant data sent to the SRD system. In that DECC is committed to treating all staff and eligible addition a STOR Provider is required by the STOR job applicants fairly and without discrimination. In Despatch document to: addition, DECC has a Diversity and Equality Strategy (a) ensure that all metering systems comply with the relevant and a published Single Equality Scheme that has an industry metering standards as set out in the Balancing and action plan on how the Department can embed both Settlement Code Codes of Practice; equality and diversity in the Department. Our strategy (b) ensure that all of those meters are kept in calibration; and statement sets out the Department’s commitments. DECC (c) provide National Grid with copies of the meter calibration aims to ensure that nobody is treated less favourably certificates confirming the same. because of their: age, disability, gender, marital status, sexual orientation, gender reassignment, race, colour, Aggregators use their own technology to meter each nationality, ethnic or national origins religion or beliefs, sub-site and aggregate this information which is then employment status: for example, part-time staff should fed into the SRD system. National Grid agrees the be treated the same as full-time employees. chosen methodology with each aggregator (which may vary depending on the combination of generation/demand The Department has taken a number of steps in the reduction) and subsequently monitors the performance last year that may lead to an increase in equality. Some of aggregated sites using a combination of metering of these steps have direct costs attributed to them. data fed into the SRD system and off-line metering data The Department has submitted its application to the provided by the aggregator2. The latest version of the Stonewall Workplace Equality Index in September which standard contractual agreements for aggregators introduces was at no cost. terms to clarify that, should National Grid wish to A half day disability awareness talk has been arranged discharge its rights to gain access to metering equipment to take place in December for all staff to increase the for verification purposes, then given not less than five awareness of disabilities and how they can affect working business days notice of such request, the aggregator has practices at the Department. This was at a cost of £470. an obligation to provide such access. The Department has rolled out a diversity e-learning Government do not hold information on how many programme to all staff at a cost of £8,235. DECC has occasions representatives of National Grid inspect the advertised Whitehall-wide development programmes for metering equipment of STOR aggregators or sought staff who are under-represented in senior positions. penalty payments from STOR aggregators for failing to This financial year, 13 DECC staff have commenced meet their contractual requirements. As the System one of these courses at a cost of £19,500. Operator, National Grid is responsible for keeping the The Department ran an awareness session on disability system in balance (including the procurement of balancing for a group of senior staff at a cost of £2,796. services) under the terms of its transmission licence and is not required to report this information to the Secretary Electricity Generation of State for Energy and Climate Change, the right hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne). Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for 1http://www.nationalgrid.com/NR/rdonlyres/297EB1F6-77EA- Energy and Climate Change (1) what steps the 4AC2-A09A-FB8188A80D98/30804/STOR_Despaich National Grid has taken to validate the meter readings Procedure_v13.pdf 803W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 804W

2http://www.nationalgrid.com/NR/rdonlyres/EF35E0EC-D7EC- April 2016, so that residential landlords will not be able to 4169-94FB-B09B484C21DF/49612/ unreasonably refuse requests from their tenants for consent to Generic_Aggregation_STOR_Framework_Agreement.pdf energy efficiency improvements, where financial support is Published on 19 October 2011 available; and April 2018, so that all private rented properties must be brought Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for up to a minimum energy efficiency standard, likely to be set at ‘E’. Energy and Climate Change what the average price Local authorities will enforce the domestic minimum paid by the National Grid is for each megawatt of standard regulations, with the ability to impose a civil electricity it buys. [86383] fine of up to £5,000. Trading Standards will enforce the minimum standards in the non-domestic sector; the Charles Hendry: National Grid, as the System Operator, level of civil penalty will be defined in secondary legislation. is responsible for keeping the system in balance, including We expect that the EPC database will be a key inspection the procurement of Balancing Services under the terms mechanism as it will show the EPC rating of properties of its transmission licence. in the local area. National Grid procures these services in order to ensure the security and quality of electricity supply European Parliament Vote across the GB Transmission System. National Grid is not required to report to the Secretary of State for Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, the right hon. Member for Energy and Climate Change how many staff in his Eastleigh (Chris Huhne), so does not inform the Department were deployed on the inquiry into the Government of the average price paid for the electricity outcome of the European Parliament vote of 5 July it procures. 2011 on carbon emissions targets. [86527]

Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Gregory Barker: There has been no inquiry by my Energy and Climate Change (1) what information he officials into the European Parliament’s vote on EU has received from the National Grid on the auditing greenhouse gas emission reductions, which took place criteria it applies to its contracts with short-term on 5 July 2011. operating reserve aggregators; [86384] Fuels: Poverty (2) what information he has received from the National Grid on the number of short-term operating reserve contracts that it has audited in the last year. Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for [86385] Energy and Climate Change how many households have been removed from fuel poverty (a) since the Charles Hendry: National Grid, as the System Operator, Carbon Emissions Reduction Target was introduced, is responsible for keeping the system in balance, including (b) since the Community Energy Savings programme the procurement of balancing services under the terms was introduced and (c) since the start of the Warm of its transmission licence. National Grid is not required Front scheme. [85909] to report to the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, the right hon. Member for Eastleigh Gregory Barker [holding answer 12 December 2011]: (Chris Huhne). The Community Energy Savings programme (CESP) was introduced in 2009, the Carbon Emissions Reduction Target (CERT) was introduced in 2008 and the Warm Electricity: Prices Front scheme was introduced in 2000. There are a number of policies that have been in place Laura Sandys: To ask the Secretary of State for since 2000 that will help customers pay or reduce their Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made energy bills—including CESP,CERT, Warm Front, Decent of the effect on the average household electricity bill by Homes, Warm Home Discount and the benefit payments 2020 of his decision to switch the source of funding that are wholly or partly related to energy costs. It is carbon capture and storage technology from an likely that the current level of fuel poverty in England additional levy on consumer bills to general taxation. would be higher had these policies not been implemented. [86495] However, no assessment has been made of the aggregate impact of Government action in this area. Charles Hendry: DECC previously estimated that the CCS levy would have added 2%-3% to average household Green Deal Scheme electricity bills in 2020. Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy: Private Rented Housing Energy and Climate Change how many staff in his Department are assigned to work on (a) the Green Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Deal, (b) the Energy Company Obligation, (c) Energy and Climate Change what inspection mechanisms international climate change issues, (d) the Green Economy, he plans to put in place to ensure that private rented (e) feed-in tariffs, (f) carbon capture and storage and properties meet the minimum energy standards required (g) promoting the interests of energy consumers. by the provisions of the Energy Act 2011 by April 2016. [86608] [86456] Gregory Barker: There are currently 57.6 staff working Gregory Barker: Under the provisions in the Energy on the Green Deal, 16 staff on the energy company Act 2011, regulations will be made no later than: obligation, 48 staff on international climate change, 805W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 806W

14 staff on feed-in tariffs, and 35.3 staff on carbon Nuclear Power capture and storage. Many of DECC’s policies, and the staff working on them, contribute towards the Green Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Economy and to promoting the interests of energy and Climate Change what additional costs his Department consumers. will incur in implementing the recommendations in Dr Weightman’s report on the implications for the UK nuclear industry of the Japanese earthquake and tsunami. Natural Gas: Exploration [86747]

Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Charles Hendry: Nuclear safety is a top priority. The Energy and Climate Change (1) when he plans to relevant recommendations from Dr Weightman’s report publish his Department’s geomechanical study into the will be implemented as part of our ongoing commitment relationship between shale gas drilling and the seismic to continuous improvement and any such associated activity in the vicinity of Cuadrilla Resources Preese costs to the Department will be borne by the overall Hall-1 well on the Lancashire coast at Fylde in April Departmental budget. Any increase in costs for new and May 2011; [86814] nuclear power stations will be borne by the operators. (2) what the terms of reference are for his Department’s geomechanical study into the relationship between shale gas drilling and the seismic activity in the vicinity of Ofgem: Fines Cuadrilla Resources Preese Hall-1 well on the Lancashire coast at Fylde in April and May 2011. [86815] Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Charles Hendry: Following the seismic tremors Energy and Climate Change how many fines Ofgem has experienced in Poulton-le-Fylde in Lancashire in April imposed in each of the last 10 years; and what the and May, DECC asked Cuadrilla to carry out a monetary value was of each fine. [86525] geomechanical study to look specifically at the geological and seismic properties of the rock strata and shale in Charles Hendry: The information requested is a matter and around Poulton-le-Fylde, and any linkages between for Ofgem. The chief executive of Ofgem will write to the recent seismic tremors and hydraulic fracturing the hon. Member and place a copy of the letter in operations in the area. The study, which confirms a Libraries of the House. connection between the hydraulic fracturing at the Preese Hall-1 well and the seismic activity which took place on 1 April and 27 May 2011, was submitted to DECC, and Renewable Energy: Feed-in Tariffs published by the company, on 2 November 2011. No decision on the resumption of these hydraulic Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for fracture operations will be made until the implications Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of of this report, and of any further analysis which may 25 November 2011, Official Report, column 616W, on prove necessary, has been fully considered, and appropriate feed-in tariffs, when he expects the second consultation practical measures have been approved by Ministers to on the comprehensive review to be published. [85778] minimise the risk of such events occurring again. Other key regulators will be consulted before any such decision Gregory Barker: We intend to publish the second is taken. consultation on the comprehensive review in January 2012. Natural Gas: Prices Solar Power: Feed-in Tariffs Laura Sandys: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the effect on the average household gas bill by 2020 Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy of his decision to switch the source of funding for the and Climate Change what representations he has received Renewable Heat Incentive from an additional levy on on his proposals to reduce the feed-in tariff applicable consumer bills to general taxation. [86494] to new solar photovoltaic installations; if he will consider a transition period with an intermediary tariff rate for Gregory Barker: After the February 2010 consultation the purpose of mitigating the effects of such changes on on the RHI, the decision was taken to fund the RHI communities and households; and if he will make a through general taxation rather than an additional levy. statement. [83493] At the time of this decision, the scheme was expected to have led to a peak increase in the average household gas Gregory Barker: The Department has received a number bill of £104 per year in 2020 (ramping up from a very of representations on the proposals set out in the small impact in the first year of the scheme). consultation on feed-in tariffs (FITs) for solar photovoltaics. Since the decision to fund through general taxation, These include representations suggesting different the RHI design has undergone a number of changes. approaches to implementing the proposed new tariffs However, no subsequent further assessment of the potential including through transitional arrangements such as an impact on household bills has been undertaken, as the intermediary tariff rate. decision to fund through general taxation had been The consultation closes on 23 December 2011 and we made. will consider all representations made. 807W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 808W

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Experian measures payment performance based upon Billing the terms provided by the supplier in their invoice. We know that many suppliers assume a 30-day payment Joseph Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for period while customer terms are typically 30 days net Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he has monthly.This might in part explain the apparent difference had with his French counterpart on the efficacy of in supplier expectation and actual payment as recorded limiting payment periods between companies to 60 by Experian. To enable effective cash flow management days as required by the French loi de modernisation de it is therefore vital that suppliers agree payment terms in l’économie 2008. [86063] advance of supply to avoid unexpected and unplanned cash flow pressures—we believe advance agreement of Mr Davey: BIS officials have been in regular discussion payment terms does not happen in at least half of all with their French counterparts about late payment UK transactions. legislation in France, in the context of the working group on the development of the recast directive on Business combating late payment in commercial transactions. This Government have made clear their objective of Joseph Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for challenging the long-standing culture of late payment, Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his Department which persists across all sectors of the economy and is taking to improve cash flows for small and medium-sized across businesses of all sizes, and we have supported a enterprises. [86067] multi-faceted strategy for improving business cash flow alongside the UK’s leading business and finance organisations. Mr Prisk: Government understand the importance of managing cash flow and are determined to do everything We continue to monitor payment across the economy they can to help business do this successfully.Transforming and will not rule out any measures which have the the longstanding culture of late payment requires a support of the business community in the UK. However, multi-faceted strategy to engage and educate business. there has been long-standing and widespread opposition from UK business to Government intervention in Late payment legislation gives businesses a statutory contractual freedoms, including on payment terms. I right to claim interest from other businesses for the late understand that the French legislation allows sectors to payment of commercial debt, and where there are no apply for exemption and that this has been utilised by a pre-agreed payment terms, the legislation provides that large number of sectors. the payment period is 30 days from the later of either delivery of goods or receipt of invoice. Further advice Joseph Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for on this legislation and on claiming interest for late Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment his payments can be found at: Department has made of recent trends in the average http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file37581.pdf length of payment terms by suppliers to small and The Prompt Payment Code developed with the Institute medium-sized enterprises. [86065] of Credit Management (ICM) seeks to identify payment Mr Prisk: The Department does not hold data on the exemplars across both the public and private sectors average length of payment terms agreed between suppliers and to codify good practice. Signatories to the code are and customers. There is no effective way of collecting required to pay within agreed terms and to communicate and collating the enormous volume of formal and effectively with suppliers. As at 1 December 2011, nearly informal agreements that take place between suppliers 1,060 organisations have signed up to the Prompt Payment and their customers every day across the UK. Code. Further information on the code can be found at: However, the Department has a long-standing http://www.promptpaymentcode.org.uk/ partnership with the UK’s leading business representative We have also worked with the ICM to produce a series and finance organisations to develop a culture of prompt often checklists on all aspects of cash flow management, payment and our work with them suggests that the available at: typical payment term offered by customers in the UK is http://www.creditmanagement.org.uk/bisguides.htm 30 days net monthly—that is, 30 days following the end of the month in which the invoice is received. As at November 2011, there have been nearly 265, 000 downloads of the guides. While we do not hold data on average payment terms, we do measure actual payment performance. The It is also important that the public sector sets a strong Department commissions Experian to provide data on example and central Government Departments now customer payment performance each quarter. For payment aim to pay 80% of undisputed invoices within five days. by firms who are not in liquidation or receivership (and In October 2011, this Department paid 95.6% of its can therefore be considered to be live trading firms), invoices within this timeframe. And to ensure the benefits data for the third quarter of 2011 (July-September) of prompt payment to main contractors are felt through show that small and medium-sized firms (those with the supply chain, all Departments have included a clause fewer than 250 employees) were paid on average 16.45 in their contracts that requires main contractors to pay days beyond contract terms. This is half a day higher their suppliers within 30 days. than the previous quarterly figure of 15.96 days. This is the first quarterly increase in this figure since the fourth Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for quarter of 2010. However, the current level of late Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he plans to payment is still 0.2 days lower than the same period last take to penalise institutions who do not meet their year. This measure peaked during the recession in Q1 widening participation obligations as defined in their 2009 at 20.3 days beyond term. access agreements. [86607] 809W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 810W

Mr Hayes: It is a matter for the director of fair access Departmental Risk Assessment to determine whether an institution has complied with the terms of its access agreement. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Where the director decides that an institution has Business, Innovation and Skills what risk registers are failed to meet the conditions of its access agreement he held by the non-departmental public bodies for which may impose a financial sanction (via the funding body) his Department is responsible; and if he will make a up to a maximum of £500,000 or refuse to renew the statement. [85698] access agreement. He may also require restitution if students have been disadvantaged or commitments have Mr Davey: Non-departmental public bodies associated not been honoured. with BIS have responsibility themselves to ensure that The Government have committed to strengthen the they have appropriate risk management tools and processes Office for Fair Access (OFFA), so it can provide a more in place. The core Department does not hold information active and energetic challenge and support to universities on individual organisations’ risk registers. and colleges. We will make significantly more resources Details of the Department’s risk and control framework available, increasing capacity up to around four times can be found in the annual report and accounts 2010-11: its original level, and equipping OFFA to use fully its “The Department’s approach is to assign risks to those best powers to monitor and review access agreements. placed to manage them. Our approach is to establish clear We are currently considering whether the director of accountability and ownership of risk so as to ensure the risk is fair access has the right powers, taking into account the managed at the appropriate level and mechanisms are in place to responses to the White Paper and the technical consultation escalate significant risks to senior management”. that followed. We will set out our plans in the draft Bill (page 71) that we shall be presenting to Parliament next year. http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/corporate/docs/b/11- p102-bis-annual-report-and-accounts-2010-11

Court Orders: Hull East Employment: Young People

Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many court orders Business, Innovation and Skills whether 18 to 24 year have been obtained through the Kingston upon Hull old citizens of other EU member states will be eligible Official Receiver’s office for foreign nationals in each of for the Youth Contract. [85677] the last five years. [86531] Chris Grayling: I have been asked to reply. Mr Davey: Information concerning the number of Support offered through each element of the Youth bankruptcy orders in relation to foreign nationals is not Contract will have its own eligibility requirements. EU collated and the costs of obtaining it would be citizens aged 18 to 24 are able to access the support on disproportionate. offer provided that they meet the relevant requirements.

Degrees Higher Education: Admissions

Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions Business, Innovation and Skills whether designated higher he has had with the Higher Education Funding education course places will be included in the Higher Council for England on the future of degree-awarding Education Funding Council for England student number allocation in the next academic year. [86032] powers. [86548] Mr Hayes: Existing legislation does not allow us to Mr Hayes: The Higher Education Funding Council impose conditions or sanctions relating to student number for England (HEFCE) continues to be actively involved controls on privately funded institutions, therefore these at official level in meetings and discussions on the courses will not be included in the Higher Education proposed reforms to higher education, including the Funding Council for England (HEFCE) student number future of degree awarding powers. For example, HEFCE allocation in the next academic year. HEFCE’s allocations was represented at two stakeholder meetings in September will include places on designated higher education courses on the proposed regulatory framework as part of the at institutions that they fund (and which accounts for Department’s recent technical consultation, which ran most of the designated higher education course places). until 27 October. These meetings included discussion of degree-awarding powers. HEFCE’s own response to the However, as we set out in the Higher Education consultation is available at: White Paper and associated technical consultation, the http://www.hefce.ac.uk/reform/response.htm future regulatory framework will ensure that providers which access student support funding will have to meet, In addition, I met with the chief executive and the in a proportionate and risk-based manner, a number of chairman of HEFCE on 18 November, to discuss various conditions in future including reformed student number aspects of HEFCE’s role in the future regulatory system. controls. A quarterly-updated list of all BIS ministerial meetings In the meantime the Department receives quarterly with external organisations is available at: updates on the number of students accessing student http://www.bis.gov.uk/transparency/staff support on these courses from the Student Loans Company. 811W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 812W

Higher Education: Dartford Cases identified Total Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Period in which FI decision made for FI insolvencies Business, Innovation and Skills how many students 1 April 2007 to 31 March 2008 7,970 69,227 from Dartford constituency were accepted onto courses 1 April 2008 to 31 March 2009 7,484 74,163 at (a) Oxford university and (b) the university of 1 April 2009 to 31 March 2010 5,518 79,498 Cambridge in each of the last five years. [85461] 1 April 2010 to 31 March 20111 4,158 57,385 1 April 2011 to 30 November 2011 2,179 28,036 Mr Hayes: The information is not held centrally. 1 Data for October 2010 not available. UCAS hold this information but their policy is that for Official Receivers deal only with Compulsory reasons of confidentiality they do not release figures for Liquidations and Bankruptcies and on average a further individual institutions where the cell counts for accepted investigation decision is made within 56 days of an applicants are low. insolvency order. The number of cases identified for further investigation Higher Education: Greater Manchester has been compared, in the table above, with the number of insolvencies dealt with for a corresponding period Debbie Abrahams: To ask the Secretary of State for commencing two months prior to reflect the time taken Business, Innovation and Skills how many students to make the further investigation decision. from Oldham East and Saddleworth constituency were Not all cases identified for further investigation result accepted onto courses at (a) Oxford university and (b) in criminal or civil proceedings as further inquiries can the university of Cambridge in each academic year reveal satisfactory explanations or mitigating factors. since 2001. [85212] The Insolvency Service periodically reviews its guidance and training to improve efficiency in terms of the number Mr Hayes: The information is not held centrally. of cases which are marked as further investigation but UCAS hold this information but their policy is that for do not result in either criminal or civil proceedings. reasons of confidentiality they do not release figures for The Insolvency Service introduced a new computer individual institutions where the cell counts for accepted system in October 2010 and due to technical issues it is applicants are low. not possible to extract the data for October 2010 without disproportional costs being incurred. Insolvency Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment (a) Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what recent assessment he has made of trends in the number of bankruptcy (b) he has made of the levels of bankruptcy tourism in the restriction orders and undertakings and disqualification UK; and what steps he is taking to support the Insolvency orders and undertakings obtained by the Insolvency Service in the last 12 months; and if he will make a Service in tackling that practice; [86461] statement. [86476] (2) what steps he is taking to support the Insolvency Service in introducing safeguards against abuse by Mr Davey: In respect of director disqualifications, foreign nationals declaring themselves bankrupt in the Insolvency Service plan range for 2011/12 is 1,250 to England and Wales. [86530] 1,350 which is broadly in line with previous years. In respect of bankruptcy and debt relief restrictions, Mr Davey: Under European insolvency law, bankruptcy the plan range for 2011/12 is 700 to 1,000 reflecting the proceedings can only be commenced where the individual’s significant fall in new bankruptcy case numbers. centre of main interests lies. Where an abuse of that law is proven to have taken place and a bankrupt’s centre of Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for main interests is found not to have been in the country Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer where the application is made, an application to annul a of 24 October 2011, Official Report, columns 95-96W, bankruptcy order will be made. Analysis of bankruptcy on insolvency, how many staff at each grade will be orders undertaken by the Insolvency Service in respect transferred to alternative offices as a result of of England and Wales indicates that incidences of abuse implementation of the delivery strategy. [86536] of this process are extremely rare. The Insolvency Service has already taken action in Mr Davey: The Insolvency Service’s delivery strategy such cases and also against companies involved in aims to restructure the organisation to make it more encouraging individuals to make false applications to able to respond flexibly to future volatility in the case our courts. numbers that it deals with. Staff will not, in the short term, be required to move Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for office as a result of the implementation of the delivery Business, Innovation and Skills how many insolvencies strategy. It is being implemented in a virtual, i.e. non- were identified for further investigation in Official physical, way, until at least 2014. The process by which Receiver’s offices in each of the last five years. [86466] the Insolvency Service moves to physical implementation of the delivery strategy, beyond 2014, is still being Mr Davey: The number of insolvencies identified for discussed and will form part of future consultations further investigation (″FI″) in the last five years are: with staff. 813W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 814W

The Insolvency Service has, however, announced its being secured. It is intended that the staff and work of intention to proceed to public consultations on the closure these offices would be merged with neighbouring offices. of its offices in Stockton, Bournemouth and Medway. This is part of its response to significant reductions in The current number of staff, identified by grade, in case volumes. The closures are also subject to funding each of those offices is shown in the following table.

D3 D2 C2 C1 L3 L2 L1 B3 B2 B1 A2 A1 Total

Stockton0 0 2 0744024133 39 Bournemouth 0 1 3 031401160 20 Medway0 1 3 0631013124 34

The number of staff required in each office, in respect what grades of staff and (b) what other resources are of the Official Receivers Services, part of the Insolvency required by the Insolvency Service to obtain a Service, is a factor of how many cases the Insolvency disqualification (i) order and (ii) undertaking for (A) Service receives. These have been declining, and are one to five years, (B) six to 10 years and (C) 11 to 15 expected to decline further, and staffing complements years. [86544] are likely to be adjusted if this trend continues. This is a separate issue from the delivery strategy whose purpose Mr Davey: Statistics are not maintained for how is to deliver a new and more flexible operating model many and what grades of staff and what ″other resources″ for the Insolvency Service. (howsoever defined) are needed for obtaining The delivery strategy does, however, anticipate further disqualification orders or undertakings in each of quoted office closures/mergers that have not yet been identified. brackets and the costs of collating them would be The Insolvency Service has announced a move towards disproportionate. a revised structure of eight Insolvency Service centre locations across England and Wales, with a network of Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for around a further 17 Insolvency Service local office Business, Innovation and Skills what the average cost locations. In the longer term, this would reduce the was of obtaining a disqualification (a) order and (b) total number of locations to about 25, some 10 fewer undertaking for a period of disqualification of (i) one than now. to five, (ii) six to 10 and (iii) 11 to 15 years, in each of the last five years. [86551] Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how much his Department Mr Davey: Statistics are not maintained for the ″average has recovered from payments made to the family and cost″ of obtaining disqualification orders or undertakings friends of a bankrupt who had a bankruptcy restriction and the costs of collating them would be disproportionate. order or undertaking made against them in each of the last five years. [86542] Insolvency: Northern Region Mr Davey: This information cannot be provided as the amount of payments recovered from family and Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for friends of a bankrupt is not identified separately. Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer of 24 October 2011, Official Report, columns 95-96W, Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for on insolvency, how many staff at each grade are employed Business, Innovation and Skills how many bankruptcy in each of the northern offices of the Insolvency Service; restriction (a) orders and (b) undertakings have been and how many will be employed in each such office obtained against individuals who have repaid family following implementation of the delivery strategy. and friends rather than other creditors in each of the [86537] last five years. [86543] Mr Davey: The Insolvency Service’s delivery strategy Mr Davey: No statistics are maintained for bankruptcy aims to restructure the organisation to make it more restriction cases in the last five years that concern able to respond flexibly to future volatility in the case repayments to family and friends as creditors rather numbers that it deals with. This will change the current than other creditors. regional structure. The offices in the existing north region currently have Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the following staffing complements broken down by Business, Innovation and Skills (a) how many and grade.

D3 D2 C2 C1 L3 L2 L1 B3 B2 B1 A2 A1 Total

Newcastle 014075301310540 Stockton002074402413339 Leeds02511551203922478 Blackpool 0140941001315653 Manchester 3 6 24 6 27 9 7063324127 815W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 816W

D3 D2 C2 C1 L3 L2 L1 B3 B2 B1 A2 A1 Total

Liverpool 00313421027730 Chester 002052702310334 Stoke014052402525149 Hull003092901416751

Staffing levels are not intended to change, in the short Productivity term or as a direct result of the implementation of the delivery strategy. It is being implemented in a virtual, Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for i.e. non-physical, way, until at least 2014. The process by Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has which the Insolvency Service moves to physical made of the most recent industrial and manufacturing implementation of the delivery strategy, beyond 2014, is production figures; and what assessment he has made still being discussed and will form part of future of the effect of his Department’s policies on the levels consultations with staff. of industrial production and manufacturing. [86214] A possible exception to this is the Stockton office as the Insolvency Service has announced its intention to Mr Prisk [holding answer 12 December 2011]: The issue a public consultation on the closure of this office latest official figures for October 2011 show that in 2013, subject to funding being secured. There may be manufacturing output fell by 0.7% in the three months further, as yet unidentified, office closures/mergers in to October 2011 compared with the previous three the northern offices as the Insolvency Service has indicated months, the first fall on this basis since October 2009. that, in the longer term, it anticipates reducing its total However is still 0.9% higher than the same period last number of locations to around 25, some 10 fewer than year. now. We recognise that the overall economic position is The number of staff required in each office, in respect very difficult given the legacy and the external environment of the Official Receivers Services, part of the Insolvency but we are determined to promote recovery. In the Service, is a factor of how many cases the Insolvency Autumn Statement last week, the Government announced Service receives. The number of new cases has been a wide-ranging package building on the programme of declining, and is expected to decline further, and staffing reforms set out in the Plan for Growth, including £5 complements are likely to be adjusted if this trend billion in new commitments to improve UK transport continues, including in the northern offices. This is a and broadband networks, as well as steps to attract separate issue from the delivery strategy whose purpose major private sector investment. is to deliver a new and more flexible operating model for the Insolvency Service. Scholarships Accordingly, subject to these complementing issues, while at specific northern locations, the staffing numbers Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for may change, and some locations may close, it is intended Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking that, under the delivery strategy, the overall staffing to assess the use of the National Scholarship levels across the northern offices would remain consistent. Programme by institutions in 2012-13. [86549]

Mr Hayes: The Higher Education Funding Council Members: Correspondence for England (HEFCE) has commissioned CFE Research and Consultancy, an independent research and consultancy Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for body, to undertake an evaluation of the National Business, Innovation and Skills if he will take steps to Scholarship Programme. ascertain what has become of the letter from him to the The first phase of the project, running until early right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton with next year, will look at the set up of the programme by regard to Mr D. Wightman, which his Department sent institutions, and the report will be published next spring. on 17 October 2011, but which has not reached the The second phase, which will include consideration of right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton. [85471] the first year of the programme, will survey both students and institutions, and will report in the autumn of 2013. Mr Davey: All letters from the Department for Business, The HEFCE will also monitor the targeting and take Innovation and Skills to the House of Commons are up of the awards through the annual returns that institutions delivered by Government Mail. make to the Higher Education Statistics Agency.

I can assure the hon. Member that the letter would Third Sector have been delivered in that manner. The movement of letters within the House of Commons Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for is not within the control of the Department for Business, Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer Innovation and Skills. of 7 December 2011, Official Report, columns 330-1W, A further copy of the letter of 17 October 2011 has on third sector, (1) how much funding his Department been sent electronically and in hard copy to the right provided to each organisation listed in 2010-11; and if hon. Member’s office. he will make a statement; [86655] 817W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 818W

(2) how much funding was provided to the organisations WOMEN AND EQUALITIES listed by other Directorates in his Department in 2011-12; and if he will make a statement; [86656] Equality and Human Rights Commission (3) how much funding his Department provided to Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Minister for Women (a) the Royal Society, (b) the British Academy, (c) the and Equalities for what reason the need for political Royal Academy of Engineering, (d) the Science, balance in respect of the composition of the Commissioners Technology, Engineering and Mathematics Network, of the Equalities and Human Rights Commission was (e) the British Science Association, (f) the UK Resource not included as an issue in the recent public consultation; Centre for Women in Science, Engineering and Technology, and if she will make a statement. [85332] (g) the Design Council, (h) Natural England, (i) the UK Council for International Students, (j) Tate Britain, Lynne Featherstone: Public appointments should be (k) the British Council, (l) the Royal Anniversary on the basis of merit, not political affiliation. As we set Trust, (m) the Raleigh International Trust (n) the out in our consultation, we want to see a smaller board Association of Commonwealth Universities, (o) the with stronger corporate skills and experience, gained in National Foundation for Education and (p) Royal the private, voluntary and public sectors. Botanic Kew Gardens in 2010-11. [86657] Fawcett Society: Finance Mr Hayes: The following table lists the information held by the Department for 2010-11 and 2011-12 and Karl McCartney: To ask the Minister for Women and supersedes the answer of 7 December 2011, Official Equalities (1) what funding from the public purse has Report, columns 330-31W.None of the bodies concerned been allocated to the Fawcett Society in any future receive direct departmental funding in 2011-12 other years for which figures are available; [81405] than through the Knowledge and Innovation Group. (2) what funding the Fawcett Society received from the public purse in each of the last five years. [81406] £000 2010-11 2011-12 Lynne Featherstone: This information is not collected centrally, however, the Government Equalities Office Royal Society 48,558 47,830 (GEO) made two payments during 2008-09 in respect of British Academy 26,448 27,001 publications amounting to £11,150. Royal Academy of Engineering 12,826 12,634 There are no future plans to fund the Fawcett Society. Science, Technology, Engineering and 6,828 6,300 Mathematics Network (STEMNET) The Equality and Human Rights Commission is an British Science Association 1,526 1,530 arm’s length body; the following is based on information it has provided. Engineering UK 350 350 UK Resource Centre for Women in 2,469 500 The Equality and Human Rights Commission procured SET publication services from the Fawcett Society in 2010 to Design Council 5,540 5,312 the value of £5,700. Natural England 365 — The Commission has allocated no future grant funding UK Council for International Students 300 150 to the Fawcett Society. Tate Britain 291 — The British Council 285 204 European University Institute 229 188 EDUCATION College of Europe 213 46 Royal Anniversary Trust 167 — Children: Disability Association of Commonwealth 117 58 Universities Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for National Foundation for Education 115 — Education (1) how many (a) deafblind and (b) multi- Royal Botanic Kew Gardens 111 360 sensory impaired children with a statement have been provided with intervenor support in each of the last five years; [85557] Universities (2) how many (a) deafblind and (b) multi-sensory impaired children received a statutory assessment in each of the last five years; [85558] Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for (3) how many children (a) are deafblind (b) have Business, Innovation and Skills if he will make it his another form of multi-sensory impairment in England. policy to require universities to have in place a policy [85559] on academic conflicts of interest; and if he will make a statement. [86469] Sarah Teather: The school census collects information on pupils with different types of special educational Mr Hayes: The Government do not intend to put in needs. It includes a category for ‘multi-sensory impairment’ place any new regulations on universities regarding the but not a separate category for ‘deafblind’. treatment of conflicts of interest. This issue is already In January 2011, the school census showed that there addressed in a number of ways including grant funding were 935 pupils with multi-sensory impairment as their terms and other governance arrangements in the primary type of need who were receiving support through university—although a number of institutions do bring either School Action Plus or through a statement of these together in a single institution wide policy. special educational needs. 819W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 820W

Information on the number of children with multi- (4) what plans he has to establish communication sensory impairment who received a statutory assessment, mechanisms between teachers and his Department following and the numbers provided with intervenor support is the abolition of the General Teaching Council; [86345] not held centrally. (5) what plans he has to promote professional skills for teachers following the abolition of the General Early Intervention Grant Teaching Council. [86346]

Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gibb: The Education Act 2011 provided for the Education what funding he is providing to local authorities General Teaching Council for England (GTCE) to be through the early intervention grant in financial year abolished on 31 March 2012. Those functions of the 2012-13. [85791] GTCE that are continuing will be carried out by the Teaching Agency, an executive agency of the Department Sarah Teather: CLG announced the provisional local for Education, which will be established on 1 April government finance settlement on 8 December. This 2012. The impact assessment for the Education Act included revised figures for the indicative early intervention 2011 is available from the Department’s website: grant (EIG) allocations for 2012-13. The indicative EIG http://media.education.gov.uk/assets/files/pdf/h/ allocation for 2012-13 is £2,365,200,000. education%20bill%20%20%20impact%20assessment%20ia.pdf Information on individual local authorities indicative Included within this is an assessment of the cost and EIG allocations is available on the Department’s website benefits of the abolition of the GTCE. The cost of at: abolition is estimated to be £15 million and the savings http://www.education.gov.uk/childrenandyoungpeopie/ from abolition are estimated to be £11 million per informationforprofessionals/a0070357/early-intervention- annum between 2012-13 and 2019-20. grant-frequently-asked-questions/ During the passage of the Education Act 2011 the These figures are still indicative and the allocations Department received 93 pieces of correspondence relating will be confirmed in February when the Department to the abolition of the GTCE. In addition, officials have issues the 2012-13 EIG determination letter. met unions to discuss the abolition of the GTCE and a public consultation was held on the teacher disciplinary Education: Rural Areas and induction regulations. The consultation ran from 20 July to 12 October 2011 and a summary of responses Dr Poulter: To ask the Secretary of State for Education will be published on the Department’s website shortly what steps his Department is taking to ensure future at: funding models do not disadvantage rural areas. [84094] www.education.gov.uk/consultations GTCE employees are able to transfer to the DfE or Mr Gibb: The recent consultation on reforming the its agencies, or accept voluntary redundancy under the school funding system looked carefully at how rural GTCE’s own scheme. Until the GTCE has closed its schools should be supported. The Department for voluntary redundancy scheme we will not know how Education is considering responses to the consultation many staff members have decided not to accept a and discussing options with interested parties, including transfer to the Department. those who represent rural areas, before we decide how to proceed. We aim to consult on more detailed proposals The Department has transition plans in place to in the spring. continue any essential communications that are required following the abolition of the General Teaching Council. Free Schools: Vetting Plans are under way to transfer essential web content and other materials, and to consider any direct communications that may be needed. In line with our Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for Education wider efficiencies work and work to reduce the bureaucratic what steps he has taken to ensure that all free school burdens on teachers, we are taking the opportunity to employees have been CRB checked. [84112] refine our communications, slim down guidance and cut unnecessary activity. Communications with teachers Mr Gibb: Free schools have a statutory duty to ensure will continue through the Teaching Agency from 1 April. that all members of staff have received an enhanced CRB check prior to their appointment or as soon as The Secretary of State for Education, my right hon. practically possible thereafter, and that this check confirms Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), their suitability to work with children. outlined his plans to develop the professional skills of teachers in the Schools White Paper: The Importance of Teaching and the ITT Strategy. This approach is based General Teaching Council on research that shows that teachers learn best from other professionals through observing teaching, being Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for observed, and receiving feedback from peers. On Education (1) what assessment he has made of the (a) 8 November the Department published an implementation cost and (b) benefits of the abolition of the General plan for changes to initial teacher training (ITT) from Teaching Council; [86389] 2012/13. This includes proposals to reform training so (2) how many staff will cease to be employed as a that more ITT is led by schools and there is focus on the result of the abolition of the General Teaching most important elements of being a teacher. Council; [86343] New Teacher Standards will come into force from (3) how many representations he has received on the September 2012 and will focus on the essential elements abolition of the General Teaching Council; [86344] of effective teaching and the professional conduct expected 821W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 822W of every teacher. We are also creating a national network will seek the views of parents, early education providers of teaching schools on the model of teaching hospitals and local authorities on how this can best be achieved. and launching a new scholarship scheme for teachers. It In recognition of the costs involved in reaching around will be the role of the Teaching Agency to promote the 40% of two-year-olds, the Government have announced use of the Standards at all levels in professional additional funding. A further £68 million has been development, performance management and in procedures included in the Early Intervention Grant (EIG) in 2012-13, for underperforming teachers. in addition to the £223 million that was previously announced in December 2010. This funding is available National Curriculum: Cybercrime to local authorities to build towards the new entitlement. Many are already using this funding to offer places to Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Education the two-year-olds who need them most, as well as to if there are any plans to introduce the subject of cyber- build capacity locally and support quality improvements. security into the national curriculum. [84073] The early years market is dynamic and diverse, and we expect that it will respond positively to the increase in Mr Gibb [holding answer 1 December 2011]: We aim demand that the new entitlement will create. to reform the National Curriculum so that it properly We are working with local authorities, providers, and reflects the body of essential knowledge in key subjects, their representative organisations to support them in leaving teachers greater flexibility to use their professional delivering the entitlement. The Government have set judgment to design wider school curricula that best aside £4 million in the current financial year for 18 local meet the needs of their pupils. Teachers will be able to authorities who are testing new approaches in providing use this increased flexibility to teach pupils about important free early education for two-year-olds. There will also topics such as internet safety. be £5 million funding available in 2012-13 to support We will be announcing our initial proposals for the local authorities’ delivery of two-year-old places. The National Curriculum next year, following which there Department for Education will discuss how this resource will be full public consultation before final decisions are can best be deployed with local government partners made. and other sector representatives. Primary Education: Bournemouth Pre-school Education Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for what recent assessment he has made of the shortage of Education (1) what criteria his Department will use to primary school places in Bournemouth. [84151] determine eligibility for free nursery places for two year olds announced in the Autumn Statement; [85792] Mr Gibb [holding answer 1 December 2011]: The (2) how many children he expects to participate in Department collects information from each local authority the scheme providing free early years entitlement to on school capacity in maintained schools through an children aged two in each financial year to 2014-15; annual survey, which includes local authorities’ own [85793] pupil forecasts. The most recent survey data relate to (3) what assessment he has made of the ability of the position in May 2010 and are available on the local authorities to provide sufficient child care places Department for Education’s website: to meet the demand for free early years entitlement for http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/STR/d000982/ children aged two years; [85794] index.shtml (4) whether he will provide support to help local The Department provides capital funding to local authorities increase local child care capacity to the authorities to ensure there are sufficient school places. levels needed to deliver free early years entitlement for It is the responsibility of each local authority to manage children aged two years. [85795] the supply and demand for school places in its area and to secure a place for every child of statutory school age Sarah Teather: The Chancellor of the Exchequer who wants one. announced in the Autumn Statement that the early education entitlement for two-year-olds will be expanded Pupils: Per Capita Costs to cover around 260,000 children—around 40% of two- year-olds—by 2014-15. The Government intend to take Pat Glass: To ask the Secretary of State for Education a phased approach to the implementation of the new if he will ensure that the funding per pupil in voluntary- entitlement. The 20% most disadvantaged two-year- aided schools is comparable to the funding per pupil in olds—around 130,000 children—will be eligible from an academy school in the same local authority area if September 2013. From 2014, the entitlement will be the local authority central spend equivalent element of extended to 40%. Currently, around 20,000 two-year-olds an academy’s general annual grant is disregarded. access free early education places. [84006] We are already consulting on proposals for eligibility criteria for the first phase of implementation from Mr Gibb: We aim to fund Academies at the same level September 2013. We propose that two-year-olds who as equivalent schools in the same local authority area, meet the criteria for free school meals, or who are and the Academies funding system is designed to achieve looked after, should be eligible for the entitlement. We this. will publish further proposals in due course about eligibility Academies’ funding agreements specify that their criteria to reach 40% of two-year-olds from 2014, focusing funding should be equivalent to their maintained peers. on the children and families that need them most. We They are therefore funded according to the local funding 823W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 824W formula which applies to maintained schools, including Mr Gibb: The provisions of the pension schemes voluntary aided schools. There may be legitimate differences covering teachers in England and Wales, Northern Ireland, within this formula in recognition of voluntary aided and Scotland are broadly the same and consequently schools’ specific responsibilities and costs. the pension entitlements for teachers across the UK will be more or less the same. The Department has made no Schools: Rural Areas assessment of the pension entitlements of teachers in the UK and other OECD countries. George Freeman: To ask the Secretary of State for Following the recommendations made by Lord Hutton Education whether he has any plans to review the use of of Furness in the report of the Independent Public the Acorn funding formula for schools in rural areas; Service Pensions Commission, the Department is currently and if he will make a statement. [81345] discussing proposed reforms to the Teachers’ Pension Scheme with the teacher unions and other stakeholders. Mr Gibb: On 19 July 2011, the Department for Education The aim of those discussions is to secure a pension published “A Consultation on School Funding Reform: scheme that continues to be valued by the profession proposals for a fairer system”. The consultation sought and which helps to continue to attract people of high views on the components and indicators of a potential ability into teaching. new funding formula for schools. The consultation proposed using Free School Meals data to target money to deprived pupils rather than an area based measure of deprivation. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT The consultation closed on 11 October and the Department is currently considering the responses. Further information Afghanistan: Females on the reform of school funding will be made available in due course. Michael Connarty: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development if he will increase support Sixth Form Education for development programmes in Afghanistan that promote women’s rights. [86163] Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what consideration is given to existing Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International post-16 provision in areas where a free school seeks to Development (DFID) is placing women and girls at the provide sixth form education. [84468] heart of its development programme, and is already supporting women’s rights in Afghanistan. During my Mr Gibb: Under section 9 of the Academies Act recent visit to Kabul I launched the Strengthening 2010, the Secretary of State for Education is under a Afghanistan’s Civil Society Project (’Tawanmandi’— duty to consider the impact of establishing a new school ’Strengthening’ in Dari). Jointly funded with Denmark, on maintained schools, academies and further education Norway and Sweden, Tawanmandi will provide grants institutions in the area in which the new school is to civil society organisations across Afghanistan to help situated or proposed to be situated. This requirement them to engage more effectively with the Government applies in relation to the establishment free schools, and hold it to account. Human rights, particularly including a free school proposing to offer post-16 provision. women’s rights, and access to justice will be major themes. Specialised Diplomas: Environment In addition, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) provides support to the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission and the Human Rights Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Support Unit at the Ministry of Justice. The FCO also Education for what reason the Specialist Diploma in provides support to paralegal services working with Environmental and Land-based Studies has been women and girls in adult prisons and juvenile detention withdrawn. [86654] centres. Mr Gibb: Following consultation this summer, Ofqual Conciliation Resources is revising the regulatory arrangements for diplomas to allow awarding organisations to make their own decisions Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for about whether to offer it as a qualification, based upon International Development what assessment he has made demand from schools and colleges. As a result, some of the effect on the work undertaken by Conciliation awarding bodies have chosen to withdraw from the full Resources in Abkhazia of Russia recognising Abkhazia diploma. Some awarding bodies will continue to offer as an independent state; and if he will make a statement. the Principal Learning components as qualifications in [86040] their own right. These high quality vocational qualifications can support progression outside of the framework of Mr Lidington: I have been asked to reply. the diploma, and can be combined with other qualifications Conciliation Resources has been working in Georgia to meet the needs of a broad programme of study. since the mid 1990s. They continue to work on projects which are designed to improve the prospects for peace Teachers: Pensions by connecting people across the conflict divide, challenging existing prejudices, and working to tackle the root causes Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for of the conflict. These projects are consistent with the Education what assessment his Department has made work of the internationally mediated Geneva Talks of the pension entitlements of teachers in (a) the UK process. The work undertaken by Conciliation Resources and (b) other OECD countries. [83611] in Abkhazia, Georgia promotes conflict resolution between 825W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 826W

Abkhazia and the rest of Georgia, and in our assessment Mr Duncan: The Department for International has had no bearing on Russia’s decision to recognise Development’s (DFID) two United Kingdom office Abkhazia as an independent state. The UK fully supports staff restaurants have operated under contract to Mitie Georgia’s sovereignty and territorial integrity. Technical Facilities since December 2010 on a non- subsidised basis. Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for Mitie Catering do not currently display the country International Development whether he has received of origin on DFID’s staff restaurant menus and display reports that the work of Conciliation Resources is boards. However, the country of origin information is going beyond its remit in Abkhazia; and if he will readily available along the supply chain and all products withdraw funding from Conciliation Resources if that can be traced back to source. is the case. [86041] Departmental Risk Assessment Mr Lidington: I have been asked to reply. Conciliation Resources and other organisations like Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for it are undertaking valuable work to build the foundations International Development what risk registers are held for future conflict resolution in Georgia. The Government by the public bodies for which his Department is responsible; of Georgia has raised the work of Conciliation Resources and if he will make a statement. [85707] in Georgia with us. We have received no reports that show that the work of Conciliation Resources is going Mr Andrew Mitchell: There are two non-departmental beyond its remit in Abkhazia, Georgia. We have no public bodies that fall under the responsibility of the plans to amend funding levels. Department for International Development (DFID): (a) the Independent Commission for Aid Impact (ICAI) Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for and (b) the Commonwealth Scholarships Commission International Development what measures his Department (CSC). has in place to monitor the activities of Conciliation ICAI publishes in an annual corporate plan its approach Resources in Abkhazia. [86042] to risk management and specific information on how it mitigates key risks. ICAI maintains a risk register as a Mr Duncan: DFID provides support to Conciliation central part of that risk management process. DFID Resources through the Governance and Transparency scrutinises ICAI’s risk management as part of the regular Fund (GTF). The Conciliation Resources’ programme assurance activities, including internal audits, provided works with groups in Sierra Leone, Guinea, Liberia, for in the framework agreement with ICAI. Uganda, Georgia-Abkhazia and Fiji to help women, men and youth in conflict-affected communities to work CSC maintains a risk register which is reviewed annually effectively with politicians and policymakers on issues by the Audit and Risk Management Committee and that impact on their lives. presented to the Commission each July. DFID monitors the GTF programmes through the Departmental Secondment assessment of annual reports and independent mid-term reviews. Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what secondments there Departmental Catering have been to his Department from (a) industry and (b) the third sector since May 2010; what the (i) Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State purpose and (ii) duration is of each secondment; and for International Development whether food and whether each secondment was to a policy development catering services in (a) his Department and (b) public role. [86142] bodies for which he is responsible plan to implement calorie labelling on menus and display boards. [85860] Mr Duncan: From May 2010 the Department for International Development has: Mr Duncan: The Department for International (a) Two secondments from industry, both in policy development Development’s two United Kingdom office staff restaurants roles and are both short-term. have operated under contract to Mitie Technical Facilities Duration October to December 2011 Management since December 2010 on a non-subsidised (b) Six secondments from the third sector all to a policy basis. development roles; Mitie Catering Services are currently working towards Four senior research fellows to work alongside the integrated providing calorie labelling at the point of choice for policy and research teams. Duration for two years from March standard food and drinks items. Prior to this information 2011. being displayed on menu boards for daily specials, Mitie Two social development advisers to work on Violence against Catering Services are testing the most effective way for Women. Duration for one year from October 2011. this to be implemented into the business on such items as pre-packaged food products. Departmental Written Questions

Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for for International Development what steps the food and International Development how many and what proportion catering services in (a) his Department and (b) public of questions for ordinary written answer received a bodies for which he is responsible are taking to ensure substantive response within (a) 10, (b) 20, (c) 30 and the countries of origin of foods are labelled on its (d) more than 30 sitting days in the 2010-12 session to menus and display boards. [85861] date. [85923] 827W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 828W

Mr Duncan: The Government have committed to developing country leaders, the UKAN (UK Aid Network) providing the Procedure Committee with information group of NGOs during the conference and more recently relating to written parliamentary question performance with BOAG (British Overseas Aid Group) upon my on a sessional basis and will provide this information to return. This was with the intention that as broad a set of the Committee at the end of the session. Statistics stakeholders could sign up to the Busan Outcome relating to Government Department’s performance for Document as possible. the 2009-10 parliamentary session were previously provided to the committee and are available on the Parliament Kashmir: Overseas Aid website. Between May 2010 and November 2011 the Department Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for for International Development (DFID) answered 1,499 International Development what projects his Department ordinary written parliamentary questions within 10 sitting sponsors in Kashmir; and how much it spent in Kashmir days and 90 within 20 sitting days. No ordinary written in the last 12 months. [85755] parliamentary questions took more than 20 sitting days to answer. Mr Duncan: Under our International Partnership Developing Countries: Water Agreement Programme, the Department for International Development provided £63,536 during 2010-11 to support Mark Menzies: To ask the Secretary of State for Save the Children’s work in Jammu and Kashmir. Our International Development what programmes his support to the Government of India’s universal primary Department supports to educate children in international education programme (Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan) and crisis zones on the importance of clean water. [85875] National AIDS Control Programme also included Jammu and Kashmir. Mr Duncan: The Department for International Development (DFID) provides core funding to the Sri Lanka: International Assistance United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF) which has an important role in ensuring children’s basic needs are met, including access to and education in water and Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State sanitation. UNICEF protects the health and well-being for International Development what recent discussions of children through the promotion of safe drinking he has had with the International Committee of the water, especially during humanitarian crises. Red Cross on the progress of reconstruction and resettlement in Sri Lanka. [85939] DFID will provide £40 million in annual voluntary core funding to UNICEF for each of the next two financial years (2011-12 and 2012-13). There is also a Mr Duncan: The Secretary of State for International provisional funding allocation of £40 million per year Development, my right hon. Friend the Member for for financial years 2013-14 and 2014-15, dependant on Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell), has not had any recent a mid-point review. discussions with the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) on the progress of reconstruction In addition to this multilateral funding, DFID have and resettlement in Sri Lanka. However, the British also committed directly to delivering on a series of high commission in Colombo meets regularly with all challenging targets concerning water and sanitation. international agencies present in Sri Lanka. They have These include making sure 15 million more people have regular discussions with the ICRC about the situation access to clean drinking water, 25 million more people in Sri Lanka. have access to improved sanitation facilities and 15 million more people are reached by hygiene promotion. Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State Development Aid for International Development what recent discussions he has had with representatives of the World Food Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Programme on the provision of emergency food assistance International Development what representations he has in the Northern Province of Sri Lanka. [85940] received on the Busan agreement on aid effectiveness. [86166] Mr Duncan: The Secretary of State for International Development, my right hon. Friend the Member for Mr Andrew Mitchell: The three main UK priorities of Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell), has not had any recent results, transparency and fragility are now enshrined in discussions with the World Food Programme (WFP) on the Busan outcome document which can be found here: the provision of emergency food assistance in the Northern http://www.aideffectiveness.org/busanhlf4/en/component/ Province of Sri Lanka. However, the British high content/article/698.html commission in Colombo meets regularly with all Further to this, the UK played a central role in developing international agencies present in Sri Lanka, including an outcome document that could be supported by those based in the north. They have regular discussions emerging economies including China, India and Brazil. with the WFP about the situation in Sri Lanka. I have outlined in more detail the outcomes of Busan in my written ministerial statement dated 7 December World Toilet Day 2011, Official Report, column 30WS. I have engaged with a wide variety of actors throughout Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for the process including other donor countries, emerging International Development what steps he took to raise economies, eg China during my visit just before Busan, awareness of World Toilet Day 2011. [85915] 829W Written Answers14 DECEMBER 2011 Written Answers 830W

Mr Duncan: In the run up to World Toilet Day, the clean drinking water, 25 million more people have access Under-Secretary of State for International Development, to improved sanitation facilities and 15 million more my hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury (Mr O’Brien), people are reached by hygiene promotion. visited a sanitation project in Bangladesh to publicise DFID country offices were also involved in activities the need for strong support in providing access to clean to promote sanitation on World Toilet Day. For example water, improved sanitation facilities and better hygiene DFID’s Head of Office in Sierra Leone participated in practices. an event organised by the Ministry of Health, the These initiatives complement DFID’s commitments Urban WASH Consortium and UNICEF at a school in to making sure 15 million more people have access to the east of the capital, Freetown.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 14 December 2011

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 773 CABINET OFFICE—continued Big Society Capital...... 776 Social Exclusion...... 775 Employee Mutuals ...... 777 Topical Questions ...... 780 Government Contracts...... 778 Voluntary Sector ...... 780 Government Documents (Disposal)...... 776 Government Procurement...... 773 PRIME MINISTER ...... 783 Public Sector Pensions ...... 779 Engagements...... 783 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 14 December 2011

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 99WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 102WS Foreign Affairs Council (Pre-Council Statement)... 99WS Domestic Violence ...... 102WS

EDUCATION...... 99WS JUSTICE...... 102WS New Schools ...... 99WS Employment Tribunals and the Employment Appeal Tribunal (Fees)...... 102WS

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 100WS TRANSPORT ...... 103WS UK Oil and Gas Regulatory Scheme (Review)...... 100WS Carriage of Passengers and their Luggage by Sea .. 103WS Local Authority Major Transport Schemes...... 104WS HEALTH...... 101WS Revenue Allocations 2012-13 (Primary Care TREASURY ...... 99WS Trusts)...... 101WS Annual European Union Finances Statement...... 99WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 14 December 2011

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 807W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Billing ...... 807W continued Business ...... 808W Energy Performance Certificates...... 764W Court Orders: Hull East...... 809W Government Procurement Card ...... 765W Degrees ...... 809W Housing: Finance...... 765W Departmental Risk Assessment ...... 810W Local Government: Land...... 766W Employment: Young People...... 810W New Deal for Communities Scheme...... 766W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 810W Non-domestic Rates...... 766W Higher Education: Dartford...... 811W Planning Permission ...... 767W Higher Education: Greater Manchester ...... 811W Planning Permission: Urban Areas ...... 767W Insolvency...... 811W Insolvency: Northern Region...... 814W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 783W Members: Correspondence ...... 815W Departmental Secondment ...... 783W Productivity ...... 816W FIFA: Corruption ...... 784W Scholarships...... 816W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 784W Third Sector...... 816W Olympic Games 2012: Wales...... 784W Universities ...... 817W S4C ...... 785W DEFENCE...... 795W CABINET OFFICE...... 759W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 795W Business ...... 759W Armoured Fighting Vehicles ...... 795W Cabinet Sub-Committee on Infrastructure...... 759W Defence: Procurement...... 796W Departmental Secondment ...... 759W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 796W Private and Public Sector: Females ...... 760W Departmental Risk Assessment ...... 797W Senior Civil Servants: Meetings ...... 760W Falkland Islands...... 797W Social Exclusion...... 760W ISTAR ...... 798W Lynx Helicopters...... 798W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT . 763W RAF Wittering...... 798W Assets: Birmingham ...... 763W Rescue Services ...... 798W Council Tax ...... 763W Council Tax Benefits: Expenditure...... 763W EDUCATION...... 818W Departmental Catering ...... 764W Children: Disability...... 818W Col. No. Col. No. EDUCATION—continued HEALTH—continued Early Intervention Grant ...... 819W Hospital Beds...... 780W Education: Rural Areas...... 819W Mental Health Services ...... 781W Free Schools: Vetting ...... 819W Occupational Health: Research...... 783W General Teaching Council...... 819W National Curriculum: Cybercrime ...... 821W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 773W Pre-school Education...... 821W Antisocial Behaviour...... 773W Primary Education: Bournemouth...... 822W Arrest Warrants ...... 773W Pupils: Per Capita Costs...... 822W Avon and Somerset Constabulary: Finance...... 774W Schools: Rural Areas...... 823W Civil Disorder ...... 774W Sixth Form Education...... 823W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 774W Specialised Diplomas: Environment...... 823W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 774W Teachers: Pensions ...... 823W Domestic Violence ...... 775W Domestic Violence: Homicide...... 775W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 799W Habitual Residence Test...... 775W Boilers: Government Assistance...... 799W Immigrants: Detainees ...... 776W Carbon Emissions...... 799W Immigration...... 777W Carbon Offset Credits ...... 800W Immigration: Port of Hull...... 777W Community Energy Saving Programme ...... 800W Rohypnol ...... 777W Departmental Equality ...... 801W Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Electricity Generation...... 801W Bill ...... 778W Electricity: Prices ...... 803W UK Border Agency: Security ...... 778W Energy: Private Rented Housing ...... 803W European Parliament Vote...... 804W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 758W Fuels: Poverty ...... 804W Departmental Catering ...... 758W Green Deal Scheme...... 804W Natural Gas: Exploration ...... 805W Natural Gas: Prices...... 805W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 824W Nuclear Power...... 806W Afghanistan: Females...... 824W Ofgem: Fines...... 806W Conciliation Resources...... 824W Renewable Energy: Feed-in Tariffs...... 806W Departmental Catering ...... 825W Solar Power: Feed-in Tariffs...... 806W Departmental Risk Assessment ...... 826W Departmental Secondment ...... 826W Departmental Written Questions ...... 826W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Developing Countries: Water ...... 827W AFFAIRS...... 785W Development Aid...... 827W Agricultural Products...... 785W Kashmir: Overseas Aid ...... 828W Agriculture: Apprentices...... 786W Sri Lanka: International Assistance ...... 828W Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories World Toilet Day...... 828W Agency: South West...... 786W Animal Welfare: Slaughterhouses ...... 787W Dairy Farming: Animal Welfare ...... 787W JUSTICE...... 793W Departmental Audit...... 788W Crimes of Violence: Ex-servicemen...... 793W Departmental Risk Assessment ...... 788W Departmental Pay ...... 794W Dogs ...... 788W Prisoners: Repatriation ...... 794W Fisheries: Accidents ...... 788W Reoffenders...... 794W Flood Control...... 789W Reoffenders: Alternatives to Prosecution ...... 795W Food: Waste...... 789W Mining ...... 789W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 783W Sustainable Development Commission: Finance.... 790W Departmental Secondment ...... 783W Sustainable Development: EU Action...... 790W Timber: EU Law ...... 791W PRIME MINISTER ...... 793W Trees: Disease Control ...... 791W Ministers: Conduct ...... 793W

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 768W SCOTLAND...... 785W Afghanistan: Females...... 768W Big Society ...... 785W Departmental Audit...... 769W Economic and Monetary Union ...... 770W European Union: Treaties ...... 770W TRANSPORT ...... 757W Japan: Whales ...... 770W Aviation: Security...... 757W Libya: Arms Trade...... 771W Buses: Licensing...... 757W Saudi Arabia: Politics and Government ...... 771W Electric Vehicles ...... 758W Sergei Magnitsky...... 772W Motor Vehicles: Carbon Emissions...... 758W Steria...... 772W Turkey: Human Rights ...... 772W TREASURY ...... 791W Zimbabwe: Diamonds...... 773W Freight: Tees Valley...... 791W Income Tax: Leicester ...... 791W HEALTH...... 779W Revenue Customs: Telephone Services ...... 792W Ambulance Services: Training...... 779W Working Tax Credit: Females...... 793W Departmental Pay ...... 779W Departmental Secondment ...... 779W WALES...... 767W Doctors...... 780W Government: Ministerial Meetings ...... 767W Col. No. Col. No. WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 818W WORK AND PENSIONS—continued Equality and Human Rights Commission...... 818W Employment Schemes ...... 761W Fawcett Society: Finance...... 818W Housing Benefit: Females ...... 761W Pensioners: Income ...... 762W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 761W Council Tax Benefits...... 762W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 14 December 2011

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 773] [see index inside back page] Minister for the Cabinet Office Prime Minister

Bovine TB [Col. 795] Statement—(Mrs Spelman)

Royal Assent [Col. 807]

Victims of Crime (Code of Practice) [Col. 808] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Priti Patel)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Carry-over (Bills Brought in Upon a Ways and Means Resolution) [Col. 811] Motion—(Mr Heath)—on a Division, agreed to Motions—(Mr Heath)—agreed to

Opposition Day [Un-allotted half day] Unemployment [Col. 835] Motion—(Mr Byrne)—on a Division, negatived

Petitions [Col. 891]

Pedestrian Access (Railway Stations) [Col. 893] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Zoos (Regional Economic Development) [Col. 273WH] Israel [Col. 296WH] Dyslexia [Col. 305WH] Farepak [Col. 325WH] Alcohol Taxation [Col. 334WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 99WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 757W] [see index inside back page]