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Premier Alison Redford meets with CNOOC CEO Li Fanrong at her office on February 26. On the rules on foreign investment, like the CNOOC takeover of Nexen, Redford says: “We need investment and we need to have a clear and transparent process that allows people to have confidence.” Flickr photo

Policy: There are so many pieces to the Q&A: A Conversation great Canadian energy puzzle. How do you see them all fitting together? With Alison Redford Alison Redford: I think that if we carry on with that analogy, that it is a Managing energy in the Canadian federation puzzle, and in Canada, where, because of our perspective on provincial juris- diction around energy, particularly if you happen to come from Alberta; we haven’t been prepared to engage with Alberta Premier Alison Redford met with Policy Edi- each other across provincial borders. tor L. Ian MacDonald in her Calgary office May 3 A lot of the work that we started to do, that we needed to do, triggered by for a wide-ranging Q&A on the Canadian energy Keystone and some of the work that puzzle. Of all the political elements, Redford con- we want to do to open up internation- al markets, was allowing us to engage curred that managing the energy issue within the differently. Canadian federation was the most important. “I So the pieces are quite different. The think back to those conversations with Premier Alberta piece of the puzzle is around Lougheed,” Redford recalled. “He said the most im- conventional energy. The Ontario piece is more green energy. It’s not pactful way to come to a Canadian consensus, was only about energy sources, it’s also to understand that every premier who comes to the about manufacturing capacity, and how we actually bring together an table is promoting the interests of their province, economic plan that’s based around and if you understand that there can be wins for both conventional and unconven- everyone, then that allows for greater success.” tional energy, as well as renewables. Policy: So if you had to pick one piece of the puzzle that was most impor-

June/July 2013 8

We always run the risk with any federal government, and tion, that that would be problematic. maybe I have a little bit of suspicion around this because I’m But I do think there’s a role for every- one to be at the table. an Albertan, that when the federal government gets involved, if their approach was to impose a solution, that that would be Policy: We were kind of in that movie problematic. But I do think there’s a role for everyone to be at during the Lougheed years, weren’t the table. we? Alison Redford: (Laughs) We were! tant, would it be managing the energy Quebec and New Brunswick. That is We were! issue in the federation? an issue that has now captured the public imagination, not only in Al- Policy: With the NEP, dare I say that Alison Redford: I think so. Under- berta, but across the country. word in Calgary? standing that even though these are issues that are part of provincial juris- Policy: You mentioned the role of Alison Redford: You know it’s so diction, the only way we can have im- the federal government in all of this. funny, because there are people in pact is to come together as provincial At the end of the day the feds are re- this city who’ve moved here recently partners, and set a direction together. sponsible – and you’re a lawyer, you who don’t even know what the NEP And that’s a very difficult issue be- learned this in law school – for inter- was, which is rather ironic, because it cause we’ve never done that before. national trade, and interprovincial was so fundamental to my psyche as And there’s always been an idea that trade with the provinces. And they an Albertan growing up, and for many if issues are of national importance, can invoke Section 92 (10) of the Con- others across the country. then the federal government has to stitution if they want to invoke the Policy: Speaking of , lead on the agenda. declaratory power and declare things no Alberta premier since him has In some instances in this area, it’s dif- like pipelines to be in the national in- stepped onto the national stage the ficult for the federal government to terest. Leaving that aside, how would way you have since you’ve come to lead, partly because as provinces we you feel about the Prime Minister call- office. He used to say, “We were Ca- want to retain jurisdiction, but also ing an energy summit, with all the nadians first,” he said that in the last because, very often, these cross-border players, the 13 provinces and territo- speech of his life in June of last year. issues have to involve real-time con- ries and the First Nations at the table? And you’ve said famously in Toronto, versations around energy, environ- ment and industrial growth. I think back to those “we rise together or we fall together, conversations with Premier there is no other way.” So how do you And from my perspective, that’s prob- see Alberta’s leadership role in the fed- ably the biggest challenge, not just Lougheed. He said the most eration on this issue, among others? as a federal-provincial constitutional impactful way to come to a issue, but in terms of actual business Canadian consensus, was to Alison Redford: Well, I’m pretty development and growth. understand that every premier excited not just as premier, and head of government, but in our discussions Policy: This issue seems to be evolv- who comes to the table is with industry leaders who’ve really ing slowly under the umbrella of the promoting the interests of engaged across the country, in terms Council of the Federation, and under their province, and if you of communicating with people about the brand name of “the Canadian En- understand that there can be how economic growth in Alberta re- ergy Strategy.” How do you see that ally does matter to Canada. And the progressing? wins for everyone, then that allows for greater success. way that industry leaders in other Alison Redford: I’m not sure that parts of the country, and other po- I’d say they’re evolving slowly, but litical leaders in other jurisdictions, they’re not issues that are part of have understood that this really is, as the national conversation right now. you have said, a puzzle or mosaic that For example, the work we’re doing needs to come together. And I think around investing in renewables, look- Alison Redford: Well, I think that’s we’re making very good progress on ing at east-west grids for transmission, a very important conversation to hap- that. At the beginning, when you is work that’s essentially happening pen. My concern would be that we were talking about what this means in at an officials or a technical level, and have developed now a pattern, under terms of the federation, I think back it’s not something that’s necessarily the Canadian Energy Strategy, where to those conversations with Premier capturing the public imagination. But we’re beginning to understand that as Lougheed. He said the most impact- that’s okay, it’s still work that needs equal players we need to come to the ful way to come to a Canadian con- to be done. And then there are other table. We always run the risk with any sensus, was to understand that every pieces that are going to develop much federal government, and maybe I have premier who comes to the table is pro- more quickly than even we’ve antici- a little bit of suspicion around this be- moting the interests of their province, pated, such as the reversal of the east- cause I’m an Albertan, that when the and if you understand that there can west pipeline, and the partnership federal government gets involved, if be wins for everyone, then that allows that we now have between Alberta, their approach was to impose a solu- for greater success.

Policy 9

Alberta Premier Alison Redford and Policy Editor L. Ian MacDonald in conversation at the premier’s Calgary office on May 3. On the need to diversity export markets, she said: “Getting our product to tidewater is fundamental to doing what we as a government have an obligation to do, which is to get the best possible price for the resources that are owned by Albertans.” Policy photo, Lee Richardson

Policy: What’s your sense of First Na- States. How do you feel about the to New Brunswick, to Saint John, that tions equity in this conversation? need to diversify our markets? the cost of transporting that product to India is not greater or not much Alison Redford: I think it’s funda- Alison Redford: Well, we have to, greater than if we were to export that mental that we bring First Nations in and I remember the first time that I product from the West Coast. Now to talk about this in a way that ensures went to Washington, and I was talking the other thing which is wonder- everyone receives economic benefit to legislators. And they said: “Well, if ful is that there’s so much product from this. In fact, last year when I was Keystone doesn’t go, then what do you in Alberta that we have the ability in Toronto at a mergers and acquisi- do next?” And I said: “Well, make no to be able to use that to continue to tions panel, and someone asked the mistake about it, Alberta is an export develop refinery capacity in Quebec, question: “What are you most wor- driven economy. And we are putting and upgrading capacity in New Bruns- ried about in terms of infrastructure in place plans to export all of our prod- wick, and still to export that product growth and economic development ucts, not just oil and gas, but agricul- to emerging markets, and that’s where in Canada?” I said that I thought that ture and lots of other things.” we need to get to. it was that we weren’t yet at a place where we were engaging honestly and It’s an interesting statistic Policy: The oil discount, up to $35 at an equal level with First Nations. that if you were to take our and even $40 a barrel isn’t just a prob- product to New Brunswick, lem for you in terms of lower royal- We’ve really been at the forefront in ties, is it? As you know, in the federal terms of developing consultations to Saint John, that the cost budget there was a line that jumped policies, with developing partnerships of transporting that product out: a $28 billion decline in exports with groups like the Fort McKay First to India is not greater or not because of the oil discount, and $4 Nation, with the Metis Settlement much greater than if we were billion in revenue shortfall for the General Council, where we really un- to export that product from federal government because of lower derstood that apart from the fact there tax receipts, which is more than the are First Nations and constitutional the West Coast. contingency reserve of $3 billion. issues, everyone who lives in Alberta has a stake in economic growth, and Alison Redford: That’s right. And everyone needs to be able to benefit here’s another element in the con- from that. There’s no doubt that getting our versation. I had a great conversation product to tidewater is fundamental with some journalists in Quebec, and Policy: On the oil sands, 170 billion to doing what we as a government we were talking about those sorts of barrels of proven reserves, maybe have an obligation to do, which is to numbers, and then one of them, a twice that much, who knows? But get the best possible price for the re- very young fellow, said that the other you’ve got this problem with the oil sources that are owned by Albertans. thing we have to remember is that discount. More than 99 percent of our You know, it’s an interesting statistic this will also impact equalization pay- oil and gas exports go to the United that if you were to take our product ments. And it does. It fundamentally

June/July 2013 10 changes the economics of the coun- sands, we welcome those investments, to be sophisticated about how we put try, if we can’t find a way to make because they allow us to continue to in place a set of criteria, which I’m sure that we’re getting that product to grow the projects, and to make sure fine with, that ensure that the invest- market. that we’re building the capacity that ments allow for a net benefit to Can- we need to continue to be an econom- ada. But we have to stay committed It fundamentally changes the ic engine, both in the province and in to those criteria, and we have to make economics of the country, if the country. sure that all investors understand that we can’t find a way to make those are the ground rules and that Policy: Mr. Harper said on the day that’s what we expect compliance to sure that we’re getting that he announced approval of those two look like. product to market. deals last December: “It is important that Canadian and also foreign inves- Policy: The markets don’t like tors understand that this is not the be- uncertainty. ginning of a trend, but rather the end of a trend.” Are you on the same page Alison Redford: Absolutely. And it’s Policy: How do you feel about own- as he is on that? regulatory uncertainty in every way. ership of the resource by Canadians? I spent a lot of time recently talking The poll numbers on this are very Alison Redford: I was surprised to some very large investment funds, strong, as you know. For example, by those comments, because I don’t and they’re as interested in what we’re where did you come out on the Nex- think that you need to presume that going to do with respect to tax policy, en-CNOOC deal and on the Progress it is either the beginning of a trend of royalty policy, subsidies for corpora- Energy-Petronas deal? the end of a trend. I think it’s part of tions, which we don’t really have. what we need to be doing in order to But just to know, if they come in and Alison Redford: Well, we were very grow our economy and to be interna- make the sorts of investments that clear on those deals. First of all, as tional players. they’re looking to make, in the bil- I’ve said before, the resources in Al- lions of dollars, that they would have berta are owned by Albertans. At no We’re not afraid of foreign certainty over the next 25 to 30 years. point in time in those international interests coming in and They are entitled to ask for that if we want them to invest here. transactions, whether it’s CNOOC or investing in the oil sands, we any other international enterprise, at Policy: What about the environment? no point do we sell our ownership of welcome those investments, Is the industry doing a better job of those resources. All we’ve ever done is because they allow us to extracting more cleanly, and in R&D, signed contracts with producers to al- continue to grow the projects, than they were, say, 10 years ago? low them to develop the fields, to ex- and to make sure that we’re tract the resources, to sell the product building the capacity that we Alison Redford: Absolutely. They and to pay us for that access. need to continue to be an are. The irony is that there are two dif- The resources in Alberta are ferent things that we need to look at. economic engine, both in the One is the environmental impacts of owned by Albertans. province and in the country the projects in the physical location At no point in time in those where they are, and the work that international transactions, we’ve put in place in order to ensure whether it’s CNOOC or any that we’re monitoring environmen- other international enterprise, Policy: So we need investment. tal impact on air and land and water. And even in communities, just the so- at no point do we sell our Alison Redford: We need invest- cial impact now is tremendously dif- ownership of those resources. ment and we need to have a clear and ferent than what it was 10 years ago or transparent process that allows people 20 years ago. We’re doing that in part- to have confidence. One of the things nership with industry, and in fact Al- that troubled me a little bit was after berta industry is involved supporting That still allows us over the long term, those transactions were approved, the monitoring work that allows us to probably the next 50, 60 to a hundred when I was spending time in investor have confidence in that investment. years, to retain the ownership of that markets, to hear comments from peo- But the other piece that’s important, asset. So that’s the first thing, but the ple about the uncertainty around the and it’s a little ironic, and one of our second thing from our perspective is rules to foreign investment. Period. greatest challenges is that when you’re that because we retain ownership of And I thought that people might say, having a climate change discussion, those resources, we have a strong reg- well, there’s uncertainty with respect and you’re talking about emissions, ulatory process in place with respect to state-owned enterprises investing. we know that what industry is doing to sustainable development and the But it was a bit wider than that, and so right now is reducing the intensity of environment, and with respect to cor- it’s very important for us, I believe, as emissions with respect to production porate governance. Canadians, if we truly want to be the on a per-barrel basis. We’re not afraid of foreign interests international leaders that we claim to However, we also know that global de- coming in and investing in the oil be, that we understand that we need mand is increasing so much that pro-

Policy 11 duction is increasing and therefore apples and oranges. And so for us to My sense is after having had you don’t always see a net reduction be able to have real-time, scientifi- four trips to Washington, in the emissions, even though, based cally independent, and verifiable data if you look at the on intensity, there is a reduction, we that’s completely transparent should misinformation and the don’t see that drop because custom- allow for a much better conversation. ers want the product. That’s probably data that many activists are one of the most frustrating conversa- Policy: Now, to pipelines, north- providing, that they’re simply tions to have with people. south, east-west. Let’s begin with using Keystone as a platform Keystone XL, 830,000 barrels a day to But it is important, even apart from be potentially exported from Alberta to try to have a wider that on the emissions side, to actually to the Gulf Coast of Texas, and the conversation. look at what the net contribution of opposition to it. oil sands production is, in terms of GHG emissions worldwide is only My sense, and we would like to have 0.15 percent, according to Energy Al- your view of it, is this isn’t about the a more balanced conversation. And berta, and only 6.8 percent of all the pipeline at all, it’s about the oil sands. my sense it’s okay right now for that emissions in Canada. discussion in the United States to be Alison Redford: Sure, it is. My talking about the importance of jobs, We also know that global sense is after having had four trips to because we’re proud of our environ- demand is increasing so much Washington, if you look at the mis- mental record, and we actually think information and the data that many that it’s fair to have an honest con- that production is increasing activists are providing, that they’re and therefore you don’t versation and say, it’s all right to want simply using Keystone as a platform jobs for Keystone, because the other always see a net reduction in to try to have a wider conversation. thing you have to know is that the the emissions, even though, Which takes us back to what I talked product that’s flowing through Key- based on intensity, there is a about before, which is if we’re going stone is a product that’s produced in reduction. to have that conversation, let’s make an environmentally responsible way, sure it’s factual. We may not all agree, it’s a sustainable product, certainly in but at least let’s agree on what the contrast to other product that’s be- facts are. ing imported into the United States, But as we move ahead, what I think whether we’re talking environmental is interesting, that very often in the impact or production from places like Policy: And this new federal-provin- past what we’ve seen is that in good Venezuela or Nigeria, plus the fact cial information portal, that was re- economic times people spend an that we have really and truly a trans- cently opened, is this a good devel- awful lot of time talking about sus- parent process that allows the infor- opment in terms of transparency and tainable energy and then when the mation to be available, that what we disclosure? economy isn’t as strong, and people can see is that Canadian oil, Alberta oil, should be compared quite favour- Alison Redford: It’s really impor- are losing their jobs, I wouldn’t say it falls off the radar, but it’s probably ably to those other sources. tant, and it’s important for a couple of reasons. One is, it’s going to allow public information in real time, that will be scientifically verifiable so that everyone can use the same data to have the conversation. There will be people who have dif- ferent views as to what the environ- mental impacts should – or shouldn’t —be, but what I’m hoping that we’ll be able to do, because it is indepen- dent, and it does have scientifically verifiable data that’s assessed by an independent committee, what it should allow us to do is at least agree on what the impact is, because so much of the discussion that we’ve heard about has been the different interpretations of data, or the debate around how data has been collected that doesn’t allow you to compare apples and apples, that very often in David Manning, Alberta’s representative in Washington, and Premier Alison Redford speak to the media this discussion we’ve been comparing on Capitol Hill. April 10, 2013. Flickr photo

June/July 2013 12 The other thing you have to know is that the product that’s Policy: Has Keystone been a bit of a flowing through Keystone is a product that’s produced in an wakeup call in terms of east-west, and what we have to do in diversifying environmentally responsible way, it’s a sustainable product, our energy exports, particularly oil, to certainly in contrast to other product that’s being imported be specific, Gateway, Kinder-Morgan, into the United States. the TransCanada proposal west-east, and Enbridge’s proposal to reverse the flow of Line 9, using refining capac- ity in Montreal and Levis ? This comes Policy: There’s an element of hypoc- negotiated it, have both said that the back to managing the economics of risy in play here, isn’t there? The GHG delay on Keystone violates the spirit if the federation, doesn’t it? emissions from the coal-fired electric- not the letter of the energy chapter of Alison Redford: That’s right. Key- ity industry in the United States are the Free Trade Agreement. stone really focused the discussion. It reportedly 44 times those of the Al- speaks to one of the challenges that berta oil sands. we’ve had in Canada for some time, It is a complicated issue. And Alison Redford: Well, it’s funny be- and that is that we are very fortunate cause you talked at the beginning of I believe that Secretary Kerry to live where we live, and very often this interview about a puzzle around is committed to making an we get comfortable, and we haven’t energy, but there’s also another impact with respect to this always thought through what some puzzle around what we need to do of the long-term scenarios might have issue. And we are as well, but been. around environmental development, the way to do that is to come and as I said, you do see coal-fired I don’t think we can have separate generation in the United States that’s together and understand that conversations going on anymore, ei- quite heightened compared to what the 49th parallel is actually a ther between just two national gov- we see in the oil sands. You also see pretty permeated border. ernments not taking into account a very large population, as I said, that what’s happening in states and prov- is demanding the product, and wants inces. We also can’t leave this to in- to use the product, and so from my dustry. One of the reasons that we perspective there is work that needs ended up in the challenging situation to be done, but the work needs to be when we’re talking about Keystone or done by everyone. And in fact as the Alison Redford: Yeah, there’s very Gateway is that for a long time, every- State Department environmental im- specific wording in that and that one took for granted that the public pact said, approving Keystone would wording has been brought to my at- in general understood what energy in- not in any way adversely impact tention. And I’ve spoken to some of frastructure was, why it mattered and greenhouse gas emissions, which just the other negotiators, and it’s quite where it was, and what was under the speaks to the fact that that’s not actu- clear that we promised to be good ground. ally the problem. suppliers if they promised to be good customers. I was asked the question in Policy: If you had two minutes alone One of the reasons that we with Barack Obama what would you the United States last time I was down ended up in the challenging say to him about this? there, would this impact Canada-US relations? It’s not going to impact situation when we’re talking Alison Redford: I would say exactly Canada-US relations in terms of us be- about Keystone or Gateway is what I just said. You know, I remem- ing unfriendly neighbours or trading that for a long time, everyone ber when I first got involved in poli- partners, but I come back to the fact took for granted that the tics and Jock Osler said to me when that 50 or 60 years ago, when we think public in general understood I was trying to answer questions, he about the energy industry in the Unit- what energy infrastructure said, “you can’t answer questions like ed States and the energy industry in that anymore. You can’t start by say- Canada, and the titans of those indus- was, why it mattered and ing this is a complicated issue.” But it tries, they worked together to build where it was, and what was is a complicated issue. And I believe what I consider to be a very connect- under the ground. that Secretary Kerry is committed to ed energy economy...And so from my making an impact with respect to this perspective I think it’s important that issue. And we are as well, but the way Keystone goes ahead so that we can to do that is to come together and un- continue that dialogue, whether it’s derstand that the 49th parallel is actu- about economic growth and indus- ally a pretty permeated border, and it And so at no point in the past, cer- doesn’t in any way allow us to get to trial development, whether it’s about tainly when I was growing up, did we the real issue. And I think we should infrastructure not just around oil and see any policy discussion or any po- be able to do that. gas, and perhaps water, transmission, litical leadership around explaining to that kind of thing, but also in terms of people that there is energy infrastruc- Policy: , the father what we want to do around environ- ture under the ground right now, that of free trade, and Derek Burney, who mental sustainability. in fact Keystone in the United States

Policy 13 would only add 1 percent of linear they are doing well for their provinc- volume to the pipeline infrastructure es, are certainly prepared to work to- that’s currently in place in the United gether when it’s in their best interest, States. Now that there’s sort of been a and sometimes in Canada’s best inter- wakeup call, we’re having to do that est, and that’s where we’re going to work at the same time as we’re trying see the real dialogue take place. That’s to resolve the issue. If we’d been able where we’ve seen success. I’m not so to have a different public conversa- sure that we’ve seen a different tone tion earlier, we would have been able around the table simply because there to say to people, now you understand are women at the table. why we do need to have all of this in place, but if we don’t have this in Policy: How do you balance the de- place, we can’t actually run an econo- mands of this job and role, and fam- my. And the economy is what allows ily, because you’re a Mom, too, and us to have the quality of life we have your daughter’s at the age, 11, where in North America. she’s rising on her teenage years, but she’s also at the age where she prob- Policy: Let me ask you about women ably hears things in the school yard in politics and public life. about her Mum? Alison Redford: Okay. Alison Redford: Well, I’ll tell you Policy: Margaret Thatcher. You were first of all on the family side, Glen 14 years old when she took office in (Jermyn) is fantastic, he’s a great hus- 1979, and 25 when she left office in band, he’s a great dad, we’ve been 1990. Premier Redford at an kindergarten able to manage that quite well. He Alison Redford: She had a pretty class on May 2. On becoming a role model for doesn’t do a lot of politics. He pre- profound impact on my life. I remem- girls, she says: “I’m a little surprised by it and I take fers to spend time living his own life it seriously.” Flicker photo ber her so clearly. I remember the Bar- and being with Sarah. We’re very fo- bara Frum interview, that was classic, cused on family time when we have that was like nothing I’d ever seen ritorial premiers. I wonder whether the chance to spend it together. From before. I remember watching that in- you’ve been there long enough to our perspective, when I started in terview with my mother, and we were see whether the chemistry is differ- politics, our goal was to try to make almost speechless afterwards, because ent with all these women around the sure that Sarah’s lens on the world you saw two strong, intelligent wom- table other than the league of guys. didn’t change. And that’s not always en, who were just engaged in the most possible, but it’s been a pretty good specific and defined conversation. I Alison Redford: It’s very funny you guiding principle, because it gave her think a lot about her. And I think a lot say that. Margaret Thatcher, if you’d a sense of safety. So in the last year about her early life and the challenges asked her that question, she probably or so, as things changed a bit, she’s that she faced. When she first decided would have told you she wasn’t going gotten a bit older, a little more aware to run for politics, if I’m not mistak- to talk about this issue because from of what’s going on. She watches the en, I think she was single when she her perspective she was the prime news, with Glen, and she knows that ran the first time, for the first nomi- minister of the country and she was there’s a lot of political criticism, and nation. Imagine that, a single woman the leader of the party and the fact that some people are quite critical of in the 1950s in the UK, running for that she was a woman was pretty ir- me. It really is like water off a duck’s the Conservative Party, coming from relevant. I’ve got to say from my back to her. She is sometimes aware, the family background that she did. I perspective.... if I come home and I’m tired or some- have nothing but respect for what she thing, she’ll talk to me about it. accomplished in her life. Policy: You all defend your provinc- es’ interests, obviously... Policy: And you’ve become kind of Policy: So the grocer’s daughter be- a role model yourself, do you accept came the Iron Lady. She famously Alison Redford: That’s right, just that? said, “if you want someone to say taking a step back I think I am more of something, get a man; if you want that view, more of her view. I’ve had Alison Redford: I’m a little sur- something done, get a woman.” some time to think about whether or prised by it, and I take it seriously. not you see those differences. I will say You don’t wake up every day and Alison Redford: It’s true. that there is one premier who has said think about it, but you are aware of they are very optimistic that having Policy: Not a bad motto. the fact. Actually, I was in a kinder- more women around the table will al- garten class yesterday, and there was Alison Redford: It’s a very good low for a different dialogue to happen. a little girl, and I know this sounds motto. And I’m heartened by that. I am skeptical. I don’t think that’s a funny, but she was wearing pearls. bad thing, I just think that what we And her teacher told me that her Policy: There are six women, as we have at the table is 13 premiers, who Mum had told her that she could speak, at the table of the Council of are advocates for their provinces and wear pearls if she wanted because I the Federation, as provincial and ter- territories, that want to ensure that was going to be in the class.

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