SENATE Official Hansard

COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER 1996

THIRTY-EIGHTH PARLIAMENT FIRST SESSION—FIRST PERIOD

BY AUTHORITY OF THE SENATE CANBERRA CONTENTS

THURSDAY, 17 OCTOBER

Condolences— Hon. Rendle McNeilage (Mac) Holten, CMG ...... 4345 Petitions— Industrial Relations ...... 4347 Telstra: Privatisation ...... 4348 Australian Broadcasting Corporation ...... 4348 Telstra: Privatisation ...... 4349 Child Care ...... 4349 Housing ...... 4349 Telstra: Privatisation ...... 4350 ABC: Funding ...... 4350 Aboriginal Deaths in Custody ...... 4350 Radio Triple J ...... 4350 Notices of Motion— Carers Week ...... 4351 Superannuation Committee ...... 4351 Telstra (Dilution of Public Ownership) Bill 1996 ...... 4351 Euthanasia ...... 4352 Abortion ...... 4353 Child Poverty ...... 4353 Compulsory Retirement ...... 4353 Poverty ...... 4353 Reclaim the Night March ...... 4354 Committees— Selection of Bills Committee—Report ...... 4354 Order of Business— Government Business ...... 4356 General Business ...... 4356 Committees— Employment, Education and Training Legislation Committee—Extension of Time ...... 4356 Order of Business— Questions Without Notice ...... 4357 Parliamentary Elections ...... 4357 DIFF Scheme ...... 4357 Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee .... 4358 Sessional Orders ...... 4358 Days and Hours of Meeting ...... 4358 Live Sheep Trade— Suspension of Standing Orders ...... 4360 Procedural Motion ...... 4363 Motion ...... 4363 Visit by US Nuclear Warship ...... 4377 Committees— Community Standards Committee—Report ...... 4377 Publications Committee—Report ...... 4378 Native Title Amendment Bill 1996— Message from the House of Representatives ...... 4379 Vocational Education and Training Funding Amendment Bill 1996— First Reading ...... 4379 Second Reading ...... 4379 Committees— Membership ...... 4379 Telstra (Dilution of Public Ownership) Bill 1996— Second Reading ...... 4380 Veterans’ Affairs Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 1) 1996— Second Reading ...... 4389 Health Insurance Amendment Bill 1996— CONTENTS—continued

Second Reading ...... 4389 Questions Without Notice— Minister for Finance ...... 4390 Trade Unions: Arts Funding ...... 4391 Minister for Finance ...... 4392 Aboriginal Children: Separation from Parents ...... 4393 ‘Wright Family’ ...... 4394 Logging and Woodchipping ...... 4395 ‘Wright Family’ ...... 4395 Minerals and Energy Sector ...... 4397 ‘Wright Family’ ...... 4398 Chemical Storage Complex at Point Lillias ...... 4400 ‘Wright Family’ ...... 4400 Genetic Manipulation ...... 4402 Budget 1996-97 ...... 4402 ‘Wright Family’ ...... 4404 Questions Without Notice— Diesel Fuel Rebate ...... 4420 Logging and Woodchipping ...... 4421 East Timor ...... 4421 ‘Wright Family’ ...... 4421 ATSIC: Special Auditor ...... 4429 Ministerial Statements— Health Policy for the Veteran Community in Rural and Remote Areas 4430 Documents— Auditor-General’s Reports—Reports Nos 11 and 12 of 1996-97 .... 4436 Committees— Membership ...... 4436 Documents— Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission ...... 4436 Fisheries Research and Development Corporation and Fisheries Research and Development Corporation Selection Committee .... 4438 Australian Industrial Relations Commission and Australian Industrial Registry ...... 4438 Fisheries Research and Development Corporation and Fisheries Research and Development Corporation Selection Committee .... 4444 Australian Sports Drug Agency ...... 4445 National Gallery of Australia ...... 4447 Australian Broadcasting Authority ...... 4447 Consideration ...... 4448 D’Entrecasteaux National Park Protection Bill 1996— Second Reading ...... 4448 Leave of Absence ...... 4465 D’Entrecasteaux National Park Protection Bill 1996— Suspension of Standing Orders ...... 4465 Committees— Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee—Membership...... 4466 Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade References Committee—Report . 4466 Consideration ...... 4467 Adjournment— Aboriginal Health ...... 4468 Member for Oxley ...... 4469 Western Australian Royal Commission ...... 4471 Dental Clinics ...... 4474 Documents— Tabling ...... 4475 Proclamations ...... 4475 Questions On Notice— Older Unemployed People—(Question No. 6) ...... 4476 CONTENTS—continued

JobSkills Program—(Question No. 152) ...... 4476 Unemployed: Case Management—(Question No. 154) ...... 4477 SENATE 4345

Thursday, 17 October 1996 its geographical location in Asia—issues that are as relevant today as they were then. During his 19 years in this parliament, Mac The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. contributed actively to the work of a number Margaret Reid) took the chair at 9.30 a.m., of parliamentary committees. He served on and read prayers. the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs from 1962 to 1966, the Joint Statutory Committee CONDOLENCES on Public Works from 1967 to 1969, and the Hon. Rendle McNeilage (Mac) Holten, House Committee from 1974 to 1977. He was CMG Minister for Repatriation from 1969 to 1972, and from 1971 to 1972 was also Minister The PRESIDENT—It is with deep regret Assisting the Minister for Trade and Industry. that I inform the Senate of the death on 12 October 1996 of the Hon. Rendle McNeilage Mac’s public service did not cease after his (Mac) Holten, CMG, member of the House of departure from federal politics. In 1980 he Representatives for the division of Indi, was appointed Administrator of the Territory Victoria, from 1958 to 1977; Minister for of Christmas Island. In that same year, he was Repatriation from 1969 to 1972; and Minister appointed a Companion of the Most Distin- Assisting the Minister for Trade and Industry guished Order of St Michael and St George, from 1971 to 1972. CMG, for his parliamentary and community service. Senator ALSTON (Victoria—Deputy Leader of the Government in the Senate) He will be sadly missed by those of us who (9.32 a.m.)—I move: knew him as a colleague and as a friend and, I should say, from my own experience of him, That the Senate expresses its deep regret at the death, on Saturday, 12 October 1996, of the Hon. as a very good footballer and as a very good Rendle McNeilage (Mac) Holten CMG, Member of representative of the north-east of Victoria. the House of Representatives for the Division of On behalf of the government, I extend to his Indi, Victoria, from 1958 to 1977; Minister for wife, Shirley, and his children, Diana, Carolyn Repatriation from 1969 to 1972; and Minister and Debbie, and their families our most Assisting the Minister for Trade and Industry from sincere sympathy in their bereavement. 1971 to 1972; places on record its appreciation of his long and meritorious public service and tenders Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— its profound sympathy to his family in their be- Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (9.35 reavement. a.m.)—On behalf of the opposition and Mac Holten was born on 29 March 1922 and opposition senators, I support the condolence was educated at Scotch College in Melbourne. motion that has been moved by the Deputy At the age of 19 Mac enlisted in the RAAF, Leader of the Government in the Senate serving as a flying instructor and test pilot (Senator Alston). We express our regret at the until 1946, when he left the air force with the death of Mac Holten, a former Country Party rank of Flight Lieutenant. Mac was a retail minister in the House of Representatives. The grocer before entering federal politics. opposition offers its sincere condolences to He became a member of the House of Mac Holten’s family. Representatives in 1958 when he won the As Senator Alston has indicated, Mac Victorian seat of Indi for the Country Party. Holten was elected to the House of Represen- In his maiden speech to the parliament he tatives as the member for Indi, in Victoria, in reflected on his wide-ranging concerns, from 1958 and he held that seat for nearly 20 education and the importance of research, to years. He had a parliamentary career that was assistance for home ownership, to the diffi- very meritorious indeed. He really did devote culties faced by primary producers and indus- those two decades of his life to serving the tries, to foreign policy where he perceived people of Indi, to representing them very that Australia’s traditional ties with Britain effectively here in the parliament and making and the United States must be juxtaposed with sure that Canberra heard of their concerns. 4346 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

During his time in government, he served him serve as a flying instructor and test pilot as the Minister for Repatriation from 1969 from 1941 to 1946. until 1972, and as Minister Assisting the After relocating to Wangaratta in 1949 he Minister for Trade and Industry from 1971 ran a successful retail grocery business. His until 1972. He also served the parliament well business expertise was soon recognised by his and effectively in a significant number of peers when he served as President of the parliamentary committees. Wangaratta Chamber of Commerce until In 1980, as we have heard, he was appoint- entering parliament in 1958, winning the seat ed as the Administrator of Christmas Island of Indi for the then Australian Country Party. and served in that role for a couple of years. In his first speech he foreshadowed some of He played a major role in encouraging local the policy areas that he intended to pursue: participation in island affairs. During my time primary industry, decentralisation, trade and as Minister for Sport and Territories, I heard education. He highlighted the great necessity of the contribution that he made while he of higher and technical education for all undertook those important responsibilities at school leavers, the need for the government Christmas Island. On behalf of the opposition to facilitate the development of inland centres in the Senate, I offer our most sincere sympa- and the difficulties that were being faced by thy and condolences to Mac Holten’s family. the dairy and wool industries at that time. He spoke prophetically of the need for stimulat- Senator BOSWELL (Queensland—Leader ing reciprocal trade activities with the South of the National Party of Australia in the East Asian nations, particularly the large Senate) (9.37 a.m.)—On behalf of the Nation- market of Indonesia, an approach that he was al Party in the Senate, I rise to support the later to pursue in his role of Assistant Trade condolence motion moved by Senator Alston Minister. on behalf of the government for the former Country Party House of Representatives Mac Holten was an extremely hardworking member, the Hon. Rendle Holten, who passed and effective repatriation minister during the away last week after suffering a severe ill- Gorton government. He was a staunch advo- ness. cate for the veteran community and endeavoured to introduce constructive measures to Mac Holten epitomised the all-round improve their lives and those of their families. Australian achiever: great sportsman, success- Key legislative initiatives he oversaw included ful small business operator, World War II test removing the remaining discriminatory limita- pilot, federal parliamentarian and minister, tion for compensation benefits for Aboriginal and respected community leader. The National and Torres Strait Islanders, providing guide Party is very proud to claim him as one of dogs for blind veterans as part of their reha- our most successful and effective representa- bilitation treatment, increasing living allowan- tives during his 19 years in federal parlia- ces under the soldiers’ children education ment. scheme, which provided education assistance for children of deceased, blinded or disabled Mac Holten was born on 29 March 1922 servicemen. and was educated at Scotch College, Mel- bourne. He was an immensely talented foot- As Assistant Trade Minister from 1971 to baller. I know Senator Alston would be 1972, Mac Holten diligently pursued trade interested in this. He had an 80-game career opportunities in South East Asia on behalf of with Collingwood and went on to coach the Australian business. His parliamentary com- Magpies to a record four consecutive premier- mittee work included serving on the Joint ships. He was also a talented cricketer, play- Foreign Affairs Committee from 1962 to ing at district level with the Melbourne 1966, the Joint Public Works Committee from Cricket Club and was heavily involved in 1967 to 1969 and the House of Representa- local cricket, focusing on junior development. tives Standing Committee from 1974 to 1977. Mac’s sporting career was interrupted by the After an unexpected defeat in the 1977 outset of the Second World War, which saw election, Mac Holten was called on to make Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4347 a further public contribution to serve as the But that was the nature of Mac Holten. He administrator of Christmas Island from 1980 was a great character, a great yarner and a to 1982. He was highly praised for his role in great story teller. But, more than that, he was facilitating the move toward increased local the epitome of a great Australian. He was a participation in island affairs during the time great sportsman, captain coach for Colling- of his administration. wood and a fearless, brave and dedicated Mac Holten was an outstanding Australian Hurricane pilot in the Second World War. It who made a huge contribution to Australian is sobering for us to think of men like Mac public life both in times of war and peace, Holten and others who have helped forge the from the elevated heights of a federal minister character of our nation and to ask whether we to the grassroots community level. I know who are here today can contribute as much or that he will be sadly missed by all who knew are as deserving of the legacy that they leave. him, particularly by his former colleagues in I think that is the most important thing we the National Party. On behalf of the National consider today—that we make ourselves Party in the Senate I extend to his wife worthy of the legacy of those who have gone Shirley and his three daughters our most before. sincere sympathy in their bereavement. Senator CHAPMAN (South Australia) Senator O’CHEE (Queensland) (9.42 (9.44 a.m.)—I want to join with those who a.m.)—Senator Boswell, my colleague, is have spoken on this condolence motion in quite right to say that Mr Holten made an relation to the late Mac Holten and to associ- immense contribution to this nation both in ate myself with it as one of those few people times of peace and in times of war. But it is left who actually served in the parliament sometimes too easy for us just to look at the with Mac, along with my colleague Senator bare facts of a person’s parliamentary career Short. Both of us were in the House of without ever looking at the character of the Representatives during, I guess, the twilight person in question, especially those of us who of his career, his last two years as a member have not shared parliamentary service with the of the House of Representatives. Certainly person in question. everything that has been said here by those this morning, who perhaps did not know him I was talking to one of the late Mr Holten’s personally, I can certainly reinforce from parliamentary colleagues from the other place personal experience. I want to associate this morning. He told me about the time he myself with the motion. attended his first question time as a minister, immensely fearful that he was going to get Question resolve in the affirmative, honour- asked a question which he would not be able able senators standing in their places. to answer. He was sitting next to Mac Holten. PETITIONS Mac Holten, to keep him calm and relaxed during question time, proceeded to tell him The Clerk—Petitions have been lodged for jokes because apparently Mac was a great presentation as follows: yarner in the country tradition and a great Industrial Relations joke teller. To the Honourable President and Members of the Mac had just finished telling this tale about Senate in Parliament assembled: dad and Dave when the minister was asked a We the undersigned citizens respectfully submit question by somebody on the other side. So that any reform to Australia’s system of industrial he went up to the dispatch box and said: ‘Mr relations should recognise the special needs of Speaker, I was wondering if the honourable employees to be protected from disadvantage, ex- member opposite could repeat the question ploitation and discrimination in the workplace. because I did not hear it. Mr Holten had just We the petitioners oppose the Coalition policies which represent a fundamentally anti-worker regime told me a dirty joke.’ The Speaker said: and we call upon the Senate to provide an effective ‘Look, you are not here to tell jokes or listen check and balance to the Coalition’s legislative to them; you are here to answer questions. So program by rejecting such a program and ensuring get on with it.’ that: 4348 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

1. The existing powers of the Australian The petition of the undersigned citizens respect- Industrial Relations Commission (AIRC) be fully shows that: maintained to provide for an effective As members of the Australian community, independent umpire overseeing awards and considering: workplace bargaining processes. the strategic important of Telstra in the 2. The proposed system of Australian Work- national economy; place Agreements (AWAs) should be subject to the same system of approval required the high levels of foreign ownership in the rest for the approval of certified agreements of the telecommunications industry; (through enterprise bargaining). Specifically, the growing importance of communications an AWA should not come into effect unless services to the lives of all Australians; it is approved by the AIRC. the threat that privatisation poses to the 3. The approval of agreements contained in the universal availability of both present and future legislation should be public and open to communications services; scrutiny. There should be provision for the involvement of parties who have a material We believe that it is in the national interest for concern relating to the approval of an Telstra to be kept in full public ownership. agreement, including unions seeking to We therefore call on the Federal Government to maintain the no disadvantage guarantees. abandon its proposal to privatise Telstra, the 4. Paid rates awards be preserved and capable nation’s chief telecommunications provider, and to of adjustment, as is currently the case in the explore alternative means of funding its environ- legislation. mental policy. 5. The AIRC’s powers to arbitrate and make And your petitioners as in duty bound will ever awards must be preserved in the existing pray. form and not be restricted to a stripped back by Senator Allison (from 1,063 citizens), set of minimum or core conditions. Senator Childs (from 1,144 citizens), 6. The legislation should encourage the processes of collective bargaining and ensure Senator Faulkner (from 1,038 citizens) and that a certified agreement within its term of operation cannot be over-ridden by a subse- Senator Lees (from 200 citizens). quent AWA. Australian Broadcasting Corporation 7. The secondary boycott provisions should be To the Honourable the President and Senators of preserved in their existing form. the Senate assembled in Parliament. 8. The powers and responsibility of the AIRC The petition of the undersigned citizens respect- to ensure the principle of equal pay for fully shows that we, as residents of the State of work of equal value should be preserved in Western Australia, urge the government to: its existing form. We oppose any attempt by the Coalition to restrict the AIRC from reject moves to cut the funding of the Australian dealing with overaward gender based pay Broadcasting Corporation and instead maintain equity issues. funding in real terms. 9. A ‘fair go all round’ for unfair dismissal so recognise and maintain the role of the Australian that all workers currently able to access Broadcasting Corporation as a comprehensive, these remedies are able to do so in a fair mainstream and independent media organisation, manner, at no cost. and not just a complementary service to commer- 10. Workers under state industrial regulations cial media. maintain their rights to access the federal recognise the ABC Charter as a valuable instru- awards system in its current form. ment for the expression of Australian cultural life Your petitioners therefore urge the Senate to that should not be devalued as a result of economic reject the above proposed reforms to the area of and political considerations. industrial relations. And your petitioners as in duty bound will ever by Senator Faulkner (from 40 citizens). pray. by Senator Margetts (from 24 citizens). Telstra: Privatisation To the Honourable the President and Senators, and Australian Broadcasting Corporation to the Speaker and Members of the House of To the Honourable the President and Members of Representatives assembled in Parliament: the Senate in Parliament assembled: Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4349

Your Petitioners request that the Senate take note Child Care as follows: Senator MURPHY (Tasmania)—by (a) We call upon the Australian Government to leave—I present to the Senate the following ensure that Triennial Funding is retained petition, from 32 citizens, which is not in (b) That no cuts are made to the operation of the conformity with the standing orders as it is Australian Broadcasting Commission not in the correct form: (c) Further, we call on the Australian Govern- To the Honourable the President and Members of ment to ensure that ABC services remain free of the Senate in Parliament assembled. commercial sponsorship and advertising The Petition of the undersigned shows we (d) That no cuts are made to radio and television believe: services 1. The Coalition’s decision to means test the (e) That Radio National, Classic FM, Radio JJJ Childcare Cash Rebate discriminates against and Regional Radio Services are retained. working parents and is a clear breach of a pre- by Senator Margetts (from 10,437 citizens). election promise, where the Coalition’s Policy clearly stated "We are committed to maintaining a Telstra: Privatisation non means tested Childcare Cash Rebate...We will maintain the current system of Childcare Senator MARGETTS (Western Austral- Assistance"; ia)—by leave—I present to the Senate the 2. The Coalition’s decision to abolish operational following petition, from 1,299 citizens, which subsidies for community based long day care is not in conformity with the standing orders centres, will result in the centres having to charge as it is not in the correct form: higher fees, which will again discriminate against working parents; and We, the undersigned, oppose the proposed part-sale of Telstra, Australia’s national telecommunications 3. The Coalition’s proposed changes to the carrier. income test for Childcare Assistance will mean that the majority of parents pay far more for Childcare In 1995 Telstra made a $1.75 billion after-tax than the Family Tax Initiative. profit, paying the Federal Government $1.5 billion Your Petitioners request that the Senate should: in taxes and dividends. 1. Seriously consider voting against Legislation Profits from public enterprises help fund public that is to the detriment of Australian families; education, public health, environmental repair, public transport and other necessary community 2. Exert pressure on Members of the Coalition to services. reverse outcomes of the 1996 Federal Budget in relation to Childcare; and Privatisation of public enterprises means less government funds, and therefore more fees and 3. Attempt to hold Members of the Coalition to charges for education, health and other essential their pre-election commitment regarding Childcare. community services. Housing Telstra is one of the largest employers in Aus- tralia, with over 70,000 full-time workers em- Senator PANIZZA (Western Australia)— ployed. Privatisation will mean job cuts, higher by leave—I present to the Senate the follow- charges and increased pressure on the remaining ing petition, from 23 citizens, which is not in workforce to work harder and longer. conformity with the standing orders as it is A Telstra sell-off will increase pressure to: not in the correct form: (a) introduce timed local calls, and The Honourable President and Members of the Senate in Parliament assembled: (b) scrap the cross-subsidised services which keep prices down for people in remote areas. We the undersigned respectfully submit that Social Housing is a major social "safety net", A partial sell-off of Telstra will undermine and crucial for all Australians. reduce its revenue base, forcing a total sell-off at Your petitioners therefore call upon the Senate a later date. We, the public, will lose the benefit of to maintain a commitment to the buying and Telstra’s long-term profitability for a short-term building of new housing properties. The new gain. Commonwealth State Housing Agreement must Environmental programs can be funded by provide the States with monies to buy and build cutting Australia’s massive $10 billion annual more Public and Community Housing. Dismantling military spending and by eliminating tax avoidance. the "safety net" of Social Housing will mean 4350 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 homelessness, overcrowding and the scrapping of We the undersigned call on the Australian Govern- public housing redevelopment plans, all of which ment to ensure that Triennial Funding is retained will impact on the most disadvantaged groups in and that no cuts are made in the operation of the the Australian society. Australian Broadcasting Commission. Further we Your petitioners support an increase in assistance call on the Australian Government to ensure that to low income earners in the private rental market, ABC services remain free of commercial sponsor- but not at the expense of Public and Community ship and advertising, that no cuts are made to radio Housing. services and that Radio National, Classic FM, Radio JJJ and Regional Radio Services are retained. Your petitioners thus urge the Senate to reject current plans in the area of public and community housing. To the Honourable the President and Members of Telstra: Privatisation the Senate in Parliament assembled: Senator COONEY (Victoria)—by leave—I Your Petitioners request that the Senate take note present to the Senate the following petition, as follows: from 48 citizens, which is not in conformity (a) We call upon the Australian Government to with the standing orders as it is not in the ensure that Triennial Funding is retained correct form: (b) That no cuts are made to the operation of the To the Honourable the President and Senators, and Australian Broadcasting Commission to the Speaker and Members of the House of (c) Further, we call on the Australian Govern- Representatives assembled in Parliament: ment to ensure that ABC services remain free of The petition of the undersigned citizens respect- commercial sponsorship and advertising fully shows that: (d) That no cuts are made to radio and television As members of the Australian community, services considering: (e) That Radio National, Classic FM, Radio JJJ the strategic important of Telstra in the and Regional Radio Services are retained. national economy; the high levels of foreign ownership in the rest of the telecommunications industry; We the undersigned wish to express our concerns about the death in custody of Stephen Wardle. We the growing importance of communications wish to: services to the lives of all Australians; the threat that privatisation poses to the express our concern about the suspicious universal availability of both present and future circumstances of Stephen Wardle’s death in a communications services; police cell which have not been fully investigated We believe that it is in the national interest for Telstra to be kept in full public ownership. express our concern at alleged harassment and police intimidation of his family, who have been We therefore call on the Federal Government to pursuing a judicial inquiry into his death abandon its proposal to privatise Telstra, the nation’s chief telecommunications provider, and to call upon the Western Australian State explore alternative means of funding its environ- Government to grant a judicial inquiry into the mental policy. circumstances of his death and into the alleged police harassment and intimidation of his family. And your petitioners as in duty bound will ever pray. ABC: Funding ABC: Funding Radio Triple J Aboriginal Deaths in Custody Senator MURPHY (Tasmania)—by Senator MARGETTS (Western Austral- leave—I present to the Senate the following ia)—by leave—I present to the Senate the petitions, from 204 and 691 citizens, which following petitions, from 2,472, 156 and 11 are not in conformity with the standing orders citizens, which are not in conformity with the as they are not in the correct form: standing orders as they are not in the correct To the Honourable the President and Members of form: the Senate in Parliament assembled: Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4351

The Petition of the undersigned shows that the continue to support carers, ease the pressure Australian Broadcasting Corporation will be forced of their caring responsibilities, enable them to significantly reduce its services in Tasmania in to utilise respite care services more, and order to meet the Budget cut of $65 million as give them greater flexibility to work and to announced by the Government. undertake education and training. Your Petitioners request the Senate to oppose the Superannuation Committee funding cuts proposed by the Government and to ensure that: Senator KERNOT (Queensland—Leader (a) the ABC can maintain its valuable communi- of the Australian Democrats)—I give notice cation and education services to Tasmania; that, on the next day of sitting, I shall move: (b) ABC Launceston—the ABC’s largest regional That the following matter be referred to the operation in Australia—can maintain its range of Select Committee on Superannuation for inquiry programming; and report by the first sitting day in March 1997. (c) the Launceston television crew—one of only (1) The appropriateness of current unfunded three in regional Australia—is maintained; defined benefit superannuation schemes, application to Commonwealth senior exec- (d) the future of the Tasmanian Symphony utives, judges and parliamentarians, includ- Orchestra is maintained; and ing but not limited to: (e) the Coalition’s pre-election promise of (a) the equity between members; maintaining existing levels of Commonwealth funding to the ABC is upheld. (b) the cost to the Commonwealth and members; (c) the impact of unfunded liabilities on We the undersigned demand that the current future budgets; level of funding is maintained for triple j. (d) the advantage or otherwise of member Petitions received. choice of fund or investment strategy; (e) the flexibility of existing schemes, includ- NOTICES OF MOTION ing in respect of portability, in the context of their working arrangements and those Carers Week applying in the general work force; Senator PATTERSON (Victoria)—I give (f) the appropriateness of replacing such notice that, on the next day of sitting, I shall schemes with a fully-funded accumulation move: scheme; That the Senate— (g) the appropriateness of the application of preservation rules and taxation on benefits (a) notes that the week beginning 20 October taken prior to age 55 to such schemes; 1996 is National Carers Awareness Week, a week which aims to support and recognise (h) the capacity for making superannuation the work and needs of carers and to improve arrangements less complex than current community understanding of what they do; arrangements; and (b) recognises that almost 2 million people look (i) the administrative costs of such arrange- after someone who has an illness, is frail or ments and their alternatives. elderly, or who has a physical, mental or (2) That for the purposes of the inquiry the intellectual disability; committee take evidence from the public, (c) acknowledges the hard work that carers put Government agencies and State, Territory in everyday and the invaluable contribution and federal departments, and conduct public they make to the people they care for as hearings as appropriate. well as society in general; Telstra (Dilution of Public Ownership) (d) recognises that, without the help of carers, Bill 1996 many of the most dependent and vulnerable people in our community would find it Senator LEES (South Australia—Deputy difficult to continue living at home; and Leader of the Australian Democrats)—I give (e) supports the Federal Government in its a contingent notice of motion which has been commitment to carers through the National circulated in the chamber, the terms of which Carer Action Plan which has and will I now hand to the Clerk. 4352 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

The contingent notice of motion read as (b) after the words of enactment, insert the follows— following clauses and heading: (contingent on the order of the day for the ad- "1 Short title journed debate on the second reading of the Telstra This Act may be cited as the Telecommunica- (Dilution of Public Ownership) Bill 1996 being tions Amendment (Customer Service Guarantee) called on)— Act 1996. (1) That so much of standing orders be suspended as would prevent the succeeding 2 Commencement provisions of this order having effect. This Act commences on the day on which it (2) That the Telstra (Dilution of Public Owner- receives the Royal Assent. ship) Bill 1996 be divided into two bills as 3 Schedule(s) follows: Each Act that is specified in a Schedule to this (a) a Bill for an Act to amend the Telstra Act is amended or repealed as set out in the Corporation Act 1991 to provide for the applicable items in the Schedule concerned, and dilution of public ownership of Telstra; any other item in a Schedule to this Act has and effect according to its terms. (b) a Bill for an Act to amend the Telecom- munications Act 1991 to provide for a Schedule 1—Amendments"; customer service guarantee, and for (c) after item 19 of Schedule 1 and before related purposes. proposed Part 2C of the Telstra Corpo- (3) That the first bill consist of the enacting ration Act 1991, insert the following words, clauses 1, 2 and 3, the heading heading, item number, item heading "Schedule 1—Amendments", the heading and instruction: "Telstra Corporation Act 1991" on page 11, "Telstra Corporation Act 1991 and items 20 to 27 inclusive of Schedule 1 of the original bill, except for proposed Part 20 After Part 2 2C of the Telstra Corporation Act 1991 in Insert:"; item 24 of Schedule 1 of the original bill (page 47 (line 22) to page 48 (line 23)); and (d) in the heading to proposed Part 2C of that the second bill consist of the heading the Telstra Corporation Act 1991, "Telecommunications Act 1991" on page 3, change "2C" to "2A"; and items 1 to 19 inclusive of Schedule 1 of the (e) title, the title to be as shown in para- original bill, and proposed Part 2C of the graph (2)(b) of this order. Telstra Corporation Act 1991 in item 24 of Schedule 1 of the original bill (page 47 (line (6) That the bills as amended by this order be 22) to page 48 (line 23)). printed. (4) That the following amendments be made to (7) That further consideration of the bills be an the first bill: order of the day for the next day of sitting. (a) title, amend the title as shown in para- Euthanasia graph (2)(a) of this order; Senator BROWN (Tasmania)—I give (b) clause 2, page 1 (lines 8 and 9), omit notice that, on the next day of sitting, I shall subclause (1), substitute: move: "(1) Subject to this section, this Act commences on the day on which: That the Senate— (a) it receives the Royal Assent; or (a) notes that: (b) the Telecommunications Amendment (i) the passage of the Northern Territory (Customer Service Guarantee) Act Rights of the Terminally Ill Act has 1996 receives the Royal Assent; stirred strong feelings about voluntary euthanasia, and whichever is the later." ; and (ii) there is a need to promote well-informed (c) renumber the items in Schedule 1. debate about voluntary euthanasia in the (5) That the following amendments be made to community and in the Parliament; and the second bill: (b) requests the President to invite community (a) after the title, insert the words of enact- representatives to present views for and ment; against voluntary euthanasia on the floor of Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4353

the Senate at a time to be determined, but Compulsory Retirement not later than 30 November 1996. Senator PATTERSON (Victoria)—I give Abortion notice that, on the next day of sitting, I shall move: Senator REYNOLDS (Queensland)—I give notice that, on the next day of sitting, I shall That the Senate— move: (a) draws the attention of all members of parliament to the Human Rights Commis- That the Senate requests the Government: sioner’s recommendation contained in the (a) to take immediate steps to publicly clarify Report of Inquiry into Complaints of Discri- its policies in relation to women’s access to mination in Employment and Occupation legal abortion; regarding the abolition of the practice of compulsory retirement of employees; (b) to affirm its commitment to maintaining Medicare-funded legal abortion; (b) notes that, but for the obstruction of the Australian Labor Party, the Greens and the (c) to adopt extensive consultation of the Attor- Australian Democrats, this discriminatory ney-General’s draft model criminal code practice could have been removed from the before State officials finalise South public service on either of two occasions, Australia’s legislation as the model abortion via the Public Service (Abolition of Com- law for Australia; and pulsory Retirement Age) Amendment Bill (d) to release for public debate the National 1992 or the Public Service (Abolition of Health and Medical Research Council’s Compulsory Retirement Age) Amendment Committee report which recommends de- Bill 1995; criminalisation of abortion, which is current- (c) condemns the practice of denying employ- ly being held up because two members of ment opportunities simply on the basis of the council will not endorse it going public. age, regardless of ability, qualifications and experience; and Child Poverty (d) expresses its support for the Coalition Senator WOODLEY (Queensland)—I give Government’s policy of removing this notice that, on the next day of sitting, I shall inequity and looks forward to the presentation of a bill to address this wholly unsatis- move: factory situation. That the Senate— Poverty (a) notes: Senator BOURNE (New South Wales)—I (i) the report of the study in the Canberra give notice that, on the next day of sitting, I Times of 17 October 1996 about child poverty in Australia, shall move: That the Senate— (ii) that Australia has the second worst level of child poverty in the industrialised (a) notes that: world, (i) the United Nations has declared 1996 to (iii) that the study, by the Bread for the World be the International Year of the Eradica- organisation which was issued to coincide tion of Poverty, with World Food Day, stated that the (ii) in spite of significant economic progress poverty rate for Australian children was in many countries over the past 50 years, 14.1 per cent, worse than any other indus- more than one billion people continue to trialised nation except the United States live in absolute poverty, of America where it is 21.5 per cent, and (iii) in Australia, almost 2 million people, or (iv) that according to the study, 20 per cent of approximately 10 per cent of the popula- Aboriginal children in the Northern Terri- tion live below the poverty line, and tory under the age of two were malnour- ished and the Aboriginal infant mortality (iv) most members of the Organisation for rate was three times that of the nation as Economic Cooperation and Development a whole; and have reduced their aid to the poorer countries of the world in recent times, (b) calls on the Government to implement real even though the need for assistance has programs to alleviate this shocking situation. increased; and 4354 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

(b) calls on the Government to undertake (b) recognises: specific measures in the 1997-98 Budget to (i) that many women victims of sexual promote employment in, and increase assist- assault and sexual violence still find the ance to, the poorest people within Australia courts and legal systems inaccessible and and overseas. alienating, and Reclaim the Night March (ii) the important role that Reclaim the Night marches play for women in that these Senator BOURNE (New South Wales)—I marches are a symbol of unity as well as give notice that, on the next day of sitting, I an affirmation and celebration of wo- shall move: mens’ strength, and have international, That the Senate— multi-partisan political support. (a) notes that: COMMITTEES (i) on 25 October 1996 the annual Reclaim the Night march will take place in capital Selection of Bills Committee cities and rural centres around Australia, Report (ii) Reclaim the Night marches began in the United Kingdom on 23 November 1977, Senator PANIZZA (Western Australia)—I when women were told by police investi- present the 12th report of 1996 of the Selec- gating the Yorkshire Ripper murders to tion of Bills Committee. stay indoors and, in response, marched with torches to protest against this so- Ordered that the report be printed. called advice, and Senator PANIZZA—I seek leave to have (iii) that these marches are now an interna- the report incorporated in Hansard. tional event and an extremely powerful means by which women can raise the Leave granted. issue of sexual assault and sexual violence; and The report read as follows—

SELECTION OF BILLS COMMITTEE REPORT NO. 12 OF 1996 1. The Committee met on 16 October 1996. 2. The Committee resolved: (a) That the following provisions of bills be referred to committees:

Bill title Stage at which Legislation Reporting referred Committee date Child Care Legislation Amend- immediately Community Affairs 25 November 1996 ment Bill 1996—provisions of the bill (see Appendix 1 for a statement of reasons for referral of the bill) Higher Education Legislation immediately Employment, Edu- 21 November 1996 Amendment Bill 1996—provi- cation and Training sions of the bill (see Appendix 2 for a statement of reasons for referral of the bill) National Health (Budget Meas- immediately Community Affairs 18 November 1996 ures) Amendment Bill 1996— provisions of the bill (see Ap- pendix 3 for a statement of reasons for referral of the bill) Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4355

Health Insurance Amendment upon introduction Community Affairs 7 November 1996 Bill (No. 2) 1996—provisions of in the House of the bill (see Appendix 4 for a Representatives statement of reasons for referral of the bill)

(b) That the following bills not be referred to Community based long day care services operators committees: Committee to which bill is to be referred C o m - Bankruptcy Amendment Bill 1996 munity Affairs Legislation Committee Bankruptcy (Estate Charges) Bill 1996 Possible hearing dates To be advised Bankruptcy (Registration Charges) Bill 1996 Possible reporting date 2 December 1996 Broadcasting Services Amendment Bill 1996 (signed) Whip/Selection of Bills Committee member Commonwealth Electoral Amendment (Politi- cal Freedom) Bill 1996 D’Entrecasteaux National Park Protection Bill Appendix 2 1996 Name of bill Higher Education Legislation Education Services For Overseas Students Amendment Bill 1996 (Registration Charges) Bill 1996 Reasons for referral/principal issues for consider- Education Services for Overseas Students ation: (Registration of Providers and Financial Potential for proposed changes to have a major Regulation) Amendment Bill (No. 2) 1996 negative impact on access for higher education. Social Security Legislation Amendment Bill Possible submissions or evidence from: Student (No. 1) 1996. Bodies (N.U.S.) Academic Unions (NTEU), The Committee recommends accordingly. University Vice-Chancellors (individually and (John Panizza) AVCC) Committee to which bill is to be referred: E m - Chair ployment, Education and Training Legislation 17 October 1996 Committee Possible hearing date(s): Possible reporting date: 21/11/96 Appendix 1 (Signed) S. Conroy Proposal to refer a bill to a committee Whip/Selection of Bills Committee member Name of bill Child Care Legislation Amendment Bill 1996 Reasons for referral/principle issues for consider- Appendix 3 ation Name of bill: National Health (Budget Measures) impact of abolition of operation subsidy on Amendment Bill 1996 quality of care provided in community-based Reasons for referral/principal issues for consider- long day care ation: impact of abolition of operational subsidy on Assessment of impact of measures in particular, the parents’ out-of-pocket costs for care provided in impact on pensioners and the decision to break the community-based long day care link between the co-payment and the compensation Possible submissions or evidence from pensioners receive. Department of Health and Family Services Possible submissions or evidence from ACOSS, National Association of Community Based Welfare Rights, CPSF, and other pensioner organi- Children’s Services sations—Department of Health and Family Ser- Australian Federation of Child Care Associations vices, DSS Australian Confederation of Child Care Australia Committee to which bill is to be referred: Com- munity Affairs Legislation Committee. Australian Early Childhood Association Possible hearing date(s): National Childcare Accreditation Council Possible reporting date: 18/11/96 Parent users of community based long day care services 4356 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

Appendix 4 (2) general business order of the day no. 54 Name of bill: Health Insurance Amendment Bill (D’Entrecasteaux National Park Protection (No.2) 1996 Bill 1996). Reasons for referral/principal issues for consider- COMMITTEES ation: The impact of the provisions of the bill which Employment, Education and Training relate to an increase in the maximum gap between Legislation Committee benefits and fees, and the impact of the provisions which limit benefits to services provided by Extension of Time medical practitioners with formal postgraduate Motion (by Senator Tierney) proposed: training. That the time for the presentation of the report Possible submission or evidence from: of the Employment, Education and Training Rural Doctors Association of Australia Legislation Committee on the provisions of the College of General Practitioners State Grants (Primary and Secondary Education Assistance) Bill 1996 be extended to 25 November Rural Health Alliance 1996. Doctors in Training Senator CARR (Victoria) (10.00 a.m.)— Consumers Health Forum The opposition will be agreeing with this Australian Medical Association motion. I think we need to state a few matters Doctors Reform Society so that they are clearly on the record. When Council of Procedural Specialists this matter was presented to the Selection of Medical Students Association Bills Committee, a report came back to this Australian Hospitals Association chamber concerning the reporting date. It was originally proposed by me, in terms of the Australian Nursing Federation reference of this very important bill, that the Australian Catholic Health Care Association reporting date be 28 November. Health Issues Centre, Melbourne I received assurances from the Manager of Bush Nursing Association Government Business in the Senate that the Services for Australian Rural and Remote Allied committee ought to be able to extend the Health, Canberra amended date if it could be found that that Committee to which bill is to be referred: Com- reporting date could not be accommodated munity Affairs Legislation Committee within the program of the committee or the Possible hearing date(s): program of the chamber. It was clear to me at Possible reporting date: 7 November 1996 that time that the proposal could not and (signed) Whip/Selection of Bills Committee would not work because it would not be member possible to do justice to the issues involved in ORDER OF BUSINESS the inquiry in that time and, given the sitting patterns established by this chamber, that it Government Business would not be possible to report within that Motion (by Senator Campbell) agreed to: time. That the following government business orders I want to emphasise just how important this of the day be considered from 12.45 p.m. till not inquiry is. It will involve the expenditure of later than 2 p.m. this day: some $14 billion. It goes to a matter whereby No. 3 Veterans’ Affairs Legislation Amendment the government will be introducing probably Bill (No. 1) 1996 the most radical change in education policy in No. 4 Health Insurance Amendment Bill 1996 30 years—that is, its plan to abolish the new schools policy. It will see an extraordinarily General Business radical shift in the allocation of resources Motion (by Senator Campbell) agreed to: between the public and private education That the order of general business for consider- sectors in this country. It will involve very ation today be as follows: significant changes to targeted education (1) consideration of government documents; programs. It will quite adversely affect a Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4357 number of states, particularly my own, where and which has now obviously had to be in recent times we have seen substantial amended by Senator Tierney’s motion, dem- attacks upon the education system by the onstrates to me yet again that this government Kennett government, which to some extent ought to be managing its affairs a lot better have been alleviated by the actions of the than it is. federal Labor government. This bill will not even be in this chamber Under these proposals that protection will until early November at the very best of be lifted. We will see a dramatic movement reckonings. Frankly, I wonder whether it will in funds from the state education system to be here then. The proposition that the report- the private education system and, in particu- ing date be 14 November is totally inappro- lar, a shift of funds to Queensland where it priate in the circumstances. As a consequence, just so happens that there are a very large the opposition welcomes Senator Tierney’s number of marginal seats. We will see the motion today for an extension of time for the introduction of a new allocation mechanism committee to report on the States Grants for the distribution of public moneys to the (Primary and Secondary Education Assist- private sector on a basis which I believe has ance) Bill. For the future, I would ask that not been subjected to proper scrutiny by this proper consideration be given to these matters parliament or by the education community at beforehand, that there be adequate consulta- large. In the estimates process we have tion with the opposition and that our advice, already seen revealed the fact that the depart- when it is sought, be acted upon. ment has not given adequate consideration to Question resolved in the affirmative. the technical issues involved in the distribution of moneys from the targeted educational ORDER OF BUSINESS programs. Questions Without Notice It is not just state systems that will be adversely affected in my state as a result of Motion (by Senator Brown) agreed to: these changes; the Catholic education system That general business notice of motion No. 264 will be affected as well. It is not just public standing in the name of Senator Brown for today, schools but Catholic schools as well which relating to the allocation of questions without will see a dramatic shift in resources to notice, be postponed till 30 October 1996. private schools. Parliamentary Elections When we put that on top of the proposed Motion (by Senator Brown) agreed to: changes to this government’s deregulated new That general business notice of motion No. 220 schools policy where we will see significant standing in the name of Senator Brown for today, changes introduced which will mean the relating to section 44 of the Australian Constitution, removal of minimum requirements for enrol- be postponed till 28 October 1996. ments, a shift in the categories that can be used for the allocation of moneys and the DIFF Scheme removal of any commitment to proper plan- Motion (by Senator Forshaw) agreed to: ning in the allocation of schools in any That general business notice of motion No. 271 particular district, we can see that all those standing in the name of Senator Forshaw for today, elements combined produce an emerging relating to an order for the production of documents pattern which we have already seen in other by the Minister representing the Minister for areas of the education sector. Foreign Affairs (Senator Hill), be postponed till the next day of sitting. The committee proposes to speak with some very important witnesses and it will be calling DIFF Scheme for public submissions; the advertisements Motion (by Senator Forshaw) agreed to: will appear in the press this weekend. There- That general business notice of motion No. 272 fore, to suggest that this matter could have standing in the name of Senator Forshaw for today, been dealt with as originally presented to this requesting the attendance of the Minister for chamber by the Selection of Bills Committee, Foreign Affairs (Mr Downer) to appear before the 4358 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade References Senator Margetts. It is very demanding to Committee, be postponed till 28 October 1996. have to concentrate for a four-week period. Rural and Regional Affairs and There is an established pattern in this place of Transport References Committee two weeks on and two weeks off. The two weeks off also allows us to undertake the Motion (by Senator Woodley) agreed to: really important business of connection with That business of the Senate notice of motion No. the electorate. It is incumbent on all of us— 1 standing in the name of Senator Woodley for today, relating to the reference of matters to the Senator Ian Macdonald—Perhaps you Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Refer- should keep that in mind. ences Committee, be postponed till the next day of sitting. Senator BROWN—Yes, we should keep that in mind, honourable senators opposite. It SESSIONAL ORDERS is incumbent on all of us to be able to work Motion (by Senator Campbell) agreed to: through a trajectory for the whole of the year That the sessional orders in force on 30 Novem- and not allow this banking up to occur at the ber 1995 continue to operate. end of the year in the way that it does. Any- way, I join my colleague Senator Margetts in DAYS AND HOURS OF MEETING making this point against the proposal. Senator CAMPBELL (Western Australia— Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for the Senator HILL (South Australia—Leader of Environment and Parliamentary Secretary to the Government in the Senate) (10.12 a.m.)— the Minister for Sport, Territories and Local by leave—I just want to put on the record that Government) (10.08 a.m.)—I ask that govern- the general support given to this motion has ment business notice of motion No. 2 be been very much appreciated by the govern- taken as formal. ment. We recognise that the sitting times that we have requested of the Senate are very The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT demanding. We have been through four sitting (Senator Calvert)—Is there any objection to weeks in a row before, and it is not easy, but notice of motion No. 2 being taken as formal? it has been done. To be totally fair, it is not Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) just four sitting weeks in a row; if you look (10.09 a.m.)—I am not objecting to it but I at the number of sitting weeks over eight or seek leave to make a very brief statement. 10 weeks, it is almost a continuous sitting. Leave granted. Senator Carr—And estimates. Senator MARGETTS—The Greens are the only people objecting to this proposal but a Senator HILL—Yes, I think that is what lot of people feel that it will be extremely Senator Carr is indicating. That puts a strain difficult to have four straight weeks of sitting on senators, their staff, resources and the at the end of the year. It is very rare—last parliament itself, and we do appreciate that. year was an exception—that an end date of a Senator Bob Collins—And it is all your program is the actual end date. fault. That’s what you used to say all the The Greens would like to put on the record time—it is the failure of the government to that it is extremely difficult, in a small party properly manage its business. Do you remem- situation, to be on duty all the time. If last ber that line? night’s whips’ meeting is any example, we Senator HILL—I do. In those circum- will all be driving each other up the wall if stances, it applied; in this instance, it is sound we are at that level of tiredness at the end of planning. The issue is that there is an enor- four straight weeks. I want to make it clear mous workload before the Senate, with a new that four weeks should be four weeks; there government coming into office with a major is no acceptable excuse for sitting further on reform program, as well as the budget related towards Christmas. bills with starting dates at the beginning of Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (10.10 next year that we need to get in place. That a.m.)—by leave—I endorse the sentiments of is just a fact of life. Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4359

Nevertheless, I know that this place will not Hill, in his brief contribution, acknowledged work without the cooperation of all sides. that that was the case. That such cooperation has been prepared to be given is appreciated by the government. I want to place on record that it is rather a unique situation in recent years in this parlia- Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— ment to have an opposition agreeing to such Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) lengthy parliamentary sittings. I think this (10.13 a.m.)—by leave—The opposition has does reflect the fact that this opposition indicated to the government that it will be always accepts that we are not only an oppo- supporting the government’s proposals in sition but also an alternative government. We relation to sitting days. It is an unusual do understand that there are significant re- circumstance to have the parliament sit for sponsibilities in the Senate to allow a four straight weeks. The opposition have government’s reasonable legislative program waited until this week, until the government to be presented and dealt with by the parlia- finalised its proposals to the Senate on what ment. sitting weeks were appropriate for this calendar year. The opposition, in order to assist the It is unusual to see the opposition in the government with the facilitation of its legisla- Senate take this course of action, because tive program, has proposed that two sitting over the last few years the coalition, in Fridays be added to the government’s an- opposition, at every turn tried to stymie and nounced program, and that a further two obstruct the former Labor administration in its Fridays—29 November and 13 December— attempts to see its legislative program dealt also be agreed to as a result of this particular with in a proper way. I do appreciate that the motion standing in the name of Senator Leader of the Government in the Senate, Campbell. Senator Hill, has acknowledged that the I also indicate that the opposition proposed opposition has been very cooperative in this to the government, and the government regard. We will continue to ensure that we accepted, that, because of the number of fulfil our responsibilities to the parliament speakers on the Workplace Relations and while we are progressing issues of ministerial Other Legislation Amendment Bill 1996, the accountability and other issues of great Senate sit through to midnight on the Tuesday importance in this chamber. of the past sitting week. The government We will also be ensuring that the govern- agreed that that was a sensible course of ment does have an opportunity to see its action, given the interest in the workplace legislative program dealt with. To that end, relations bill second reading debate—a debate the Leader of the Government in the Senate which concluded yesterday. has indicated that the government will be I might say that, for the opposition’s part, taking a more realistic approach to those bills we did indicate that we would support the that are on the Senate Notice Paper. I ac- government’s proposal. Originally the govern- knowledge that sensible efforts have been ment had suggested three sitting weeks to made to try and reduce the Senate’s workload conclude our sittings for this year. I think it for this calendar year. is fair to say that the government wanted to review this situation, given that the visit of I said in a meeting that was convened by the President of the United States has been Senator Hill earlier in the week that I thought confirmed and there is a proposal for a joint that the government’s latest proposals were sitting of the houses of parliament on 20 far more realistic. We argue in the Labor November. Party that one of the real values of motions like this is to give all senators some certainty The government has come back with this about what the sitting times of the Senate are proposition that the parliament sit from going to be. While this is going to be a long, Monday, 18 November right through to hard road—particularly the four straight Friday, 13 December. The opposition does not sitting weeks—at least we now have a situa- oppose this. I am pleased to see that Senator tion where senators can plan outside those 4360 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 sitting weeks and do have an understanding The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I of what the constraints are going to be on understand from the Manager of Government their time. Business that there was no objection last night to it being taken as formal. Is that correct? I am looking forward to all the question times that this involves. As I add them up, Senator CHRIS EVANS (Western Austral- there is a total of 15 question times over that ia) (10.22 a.m.)—by leave—Mr Acting four-week period. On the rate of ministerial Deputy President, I just indicate that the and parliamentary secretary resignations we opposition will be opposing formality. I have had in question time this week, that understood Senator Margetts was going to means that there will probably be a further seek to suspend and have that motion debated. eight scalps hanging off the opposition’s belt. Just in terms of the opposition’s position, we will not be supporting her motion. Motion (by Senator Campbell) agreed to: The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— (1) That the Senate shall sit on the following days: You can allow it to be declared formal and still oppose it. That would be a more sensible Monday, 18 November to Thursday, 21 course of action. November 1996 Senator CHRIS EVANS—When you Monday, 9 December to Thursday, 12 Decem- ber 1996 asked me to call, I called. Friday, 29 November 1996 The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— No, I asked whether anybody objected to it Friday, 13 December 1996. being called formal. (2) That on Friday, 29 November 1996 and Friday, 13 December 1996: Senator CHRIS EVANS—I did. (a) the hours of meeting shall be: The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— Well you shouldn’t have. You should have let 9amto1pm it be called formal and then voted against it. 2 pm to 3.45 pm; Senator CHRIS EVANS—With due (b) the routine business shall be: respect, Mr Acting Deputy President, I do not (i) Government business have to call according to your instructions. In (ii) At 3.45 pm, adjournment. putting the motion, you asked whether anyone opposed it being declared formal and I said, (3) That the procedures for the adjournment ‘Yes, we oppose it being declared formal.’ I specified in the sessional order of 2 Februa- ry 1994 relating to the times of sitting and do not need my decisions reviewed by you, routine of business shall apply in respect of with all due respect. this order. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— LIVE SHEEP TRADE Those were the arrangements that I was told were made. If it is declared formal then it can Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) be debated. (10.21 a.m.)—I ask that general business notice of motion No. 245, standing in my Senator CHRIS EVANS—No, I think you name, be taken as a formal motion. heard the deputy manager of government business indicate that that was the The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT government’s position and I indicated the (Senator Calvert)—Is there any objection to opposition’s position. 245 being taken as formal? There is an objection. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— Then the motion is not declared formal. Leave not granted. Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) Suspension of Standing Orders (10.21 a.m.)—by leave—This is not what was Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) indicated at the whips meeting last night. It (10.23 a.m.)—Pursuant to contingent notice was indicated that it would be formal. of motion, I move: Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4361

That so much of the standing orders be suspend- anywhere else. I think it is urgent that we ed as would prevent Senator Margetts moving a deal with this issue. motion relating to the conduct of the business of the Senate, namely a motion to give precedence to I would like to think that the decisions general business notice of motion No. 245. made during the whips’ meetings are not reversed at the last minute. It may be that I As far as I was aware, the Australian Labor have a mistaken belief concerning the agree- Party was going to support this motion. It is ments reached. This matter was raised several only now that I have discovered that Labor days ago and I was under the impression that are not supporting it. The government indicat- we had been given assurances by Labor that ed that they would support the motion being there were no problems with this motion. declared formal but would vote against the motion. This is the first time I have heard that As I said, the world will not fall apart if it Labor are not supporting the motion. So it is is supported. It is not an anti-farmers move. unfortunate that the indications now being It is not an anti-agriculture move. It is aimed given are different to those given in the at ensuring that Australia’s reputation is what whips’ meeting. it should be. That is why it is urgent that the motion get support in the Senate to ensure The urgency today of the motion is that a reasonable attitude is adopted both now Australia’s international reputation involving and in the future on this issue. So I urge the general maritime safety in the transportation Senate to support this motion. of live sheep—an issue the general communi- Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (10.27 ty feel should be addressed urgently. The a.m.)—I support this motion because I was world would not fall apart if this motion were also under the impression that there would be agreed to. support for it without it being put to a debate; The motion states that there was to be a but we are now having a debate about the march to coincide with a London based urgency of the matter. And it is a matter of protest by the group Compassion in World very great importance. As Senator Margetts Farming and a statement regarding the num- said, over 1,000 people protested a week ago ber of sheep annually exported. There was in Perth about the sinking of the Uniceb nothing particularly controversial about the carrying over 67,000 sheep to the Middle second call for action involving an investiga- East. tion. This matter is urgent because we cannot We do not know the circumstances of that allow these kinds of incidents to continue. shipping disaster as very scant detail is There is nothing terribly controversial in these available. It is presumed that many of the issues. sheep were burnt. Whatever happened, they all went to the bottom of the ocean with the I am merely disappointed about the way ship. There is a real question mark hanging things have happened today. I understood that over the measures to ameliorate conditions on there would be objection to the motion being the ship for those sheep. If I recollect cor- declared formal, but I also understood that the rectly, unlike New Zealand, we do not have Senate would support the motion. Unfortu- rules in place to ensure surveillance by nately, Labor have sent me mixed signals in professional veterinary officers over the this regard. However, in a last ditch attempt conditions of the animals aboard these ships. to have the motion agreed to, I would ask the Whatever the case, even without this disaster, Senate to support this motion. we know that some 50,000 to 100,000 live The world will not end if we find out why sheep die in transit on the oceans out of this this incident involving the Uniceb happened. country every year, and that is a matter of The world will not end if we instigate meas- very serious concern. An inquiry into this ures to try to prevent such an incident hap- disaster could do nothing but good. pening again involving large numbers of Senator Ferguson—Mr Acting Deputy sheep and personnel in such marine disasters President, on a point of order: the question of ships sinking in and around Australia or before the chair is one of urgency. Senator 4362 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

Brown is now debating the substance of the The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT motion that Senator Margetts is seeking to (Senator Calvert)—I was going to make a declare formal. I ask you to either draw him decision before I had the advice of those on back to the matter of urgency or ask him to both sides of the House. I must say I believe sit down. the reason that a five-minute limit was put on speeches during the debate on the motion for Senator Faulkner—Mr Acting Deputy the suspension of standing orders was for the President, on the point of order: I was listen- very reason that has been raised this morning carefully to what Senator Brown said. I ing—that is, to allow a little latitude to the must say there have been a number of rulings person who is moving for the suspension of of late which I think are very sensible, allow- standing orders. Whilst I take Senator ing senators speaking to motions for the Ferguson’s point, I will allow Senator Brown suspension of standing orders a certain degree to continue. of flexibility. I would ask you, as you consider your ruling on this matter, to take into Senator BROWN—A very fine ruling, Mr account some recent rulings made by those Acting Deputy President. The matter is presiding in this place. urgent. The response on the streets of Perth I can recall even over the last sitting fort- shows that it is urgent. Senator Margetts was night occasions when a certain flexibility has under the impression, and I think fairly so, been determined by the President or Acting that there would not be a debate, that there Deputy President in allowing debate in this would be a vote on this matter. But the chamber to flow as effectively as possible. Senate has determined that there will be this This is something about which there is an debate. She would have taken the shorter enormous amount of consistency in rulings. course. I might add that she expected that the I think it places you in a difficult position government would come back with an alterna- other than to call Senator Brown to debate the tive form of words if it was not happy with substance of the motion before the chair. these, but that did not happen. Senator Ian Macdonald—On the point of The senator will be seeking an inquiry into order, Mr Acting Deputy President: I am not the matter because it is a very important one, sure whether Senator Faulkner is talking in and she may have to do that by an alternative code for some arrangement that might have method a little later in the day. I reiterate: it been made in relation to this matter, but as a is a very urgent topic, not because we ordain general principle I think what Senator it so, but because a ship has just sunk in the Faulkner says is quite wrong. If you allow ocean while carrying 67,000 live sheep. This substantive debate on this motion it will all be opportunity should not be lost to establish a repeated again when the substantive motion full ranging inquiry to avoid such incidents in is debated. the future and to better settle our conscience regarding the way in which millions of ani- There may be some arrangement in this mals are treated on their way to ports out of instance that I do not know about. What Australia in the years ahead. happens so often is that the substantive matters are debated at this stage and then Senator WOODLEY (Queensland) (10.34 repeated in the debate on the substantive a.m.)—The Democrats want to support both motion. Senator Brown had the temerity less the motion for the suspension of standing than 10 minutes ago to complain about sitting orders and the substantive motion. Some days for an extra two weeks. If we keep allowing ago, I was very cooperative with the govern- him to debate the substantive matter on the ment in not pulling some bills out of the non- motion for suspension and then repeating this controversial lunchtime debate on this very during the debate on the substantive motion, issue because the minister gave me some we will need another two sitting weeks for the assurances. But it seems that assurances do chamber. I urge you, Mr Acting Deputy not matter very much if you have got the President, to apply the rules as they are. numbers to beat people into submission. Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4363

Senator Ian Macdonald—Your party the suspension of standing orders for a debate would know all about that. to take place on this issue, but not supporting Senator Ferguson interjecting— the substantive motion. In fact, we will be supporting the opposition to this motion by Senator WOODLEY—I do not have time the government. But it is important, particu- to listen to your interjections or I would larly as recent events have indicated, that the respond to them. I place on the record the position of the opposition on this issue not be Democrats’ very real concern about the misconstrued. I am not suggesting that Sena- sinking of this ship. I know the government tor Brown would be crass enough to do this, has done some things and I acknowledge that, but I thought there was some danger, when but I believe this is a unique opportunity to we do support the government on this issue, look again— as we will, that a press statement might be Senator Ian Macdonald—What about issued saying that the opposition has got unemployment? Are you concerned about absolutely no concern about animal welfare. that? It did cross my mind that that would be the Senator WOODLEY—Yes, that is the result if there were nothing said in a formal problem, Senator Macdonald. Unemployment debate. Perhaps I am a little more generous is the issue—10,000 meatworkers put out of than I should be: there was some real chance work by the live sheep trade. Unemployment of that happening. I did not want that to is very much an issue. happen, because it is an important matter. Senator O’Chee—You are absolutely and The Australian live sheep trade is a vitally utterly talking rubbish. important trade for Australia. It is absolutely Senator WOODLEY—I am not. They are crucial that it be conducted in the most the figures that are on the record. scrupulously careful way that it can be and The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT that the welfare of the animals involved on (Senator McKiernan)—Order! Senator such journeys be protected to the maximum Woodley, address your remarks through the extent that it can be protected. In the absence chair and keep in mind the motion that is of a debate—I carefully considered this this before the chamber. morning—I did not want to run the risk of having a deliberate misconstruction placed on Senator O’Chee—He would not know that with statements then issued, as they what it is. probably would have been, saying that the The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— federal opposition did not care about the Order, Senator O’Chee! welfare of sheep or, indeed, other animals that Senator WOODLEY—Certainly, Mr are conducted with these trades. Acting Deputy President. The problem is that I will not speak more than is necessary in it appears the government does not want to the debate proper, but I will certainly speak look into a very serious issue that many for long enough to put on the record the people in Australia are concerned about. It reasons why we are supporting the govern- was given the opportunity to do something ment on this issue and not the Greens. about it but it is dodging the issue. The Question resolved in the affirmative. Democrats want to put on the record their concerns about the sinking of this ship, about Procedural Motion the cruelty to animals. If the government Motion (by Senator Margetts) agreed to: wants our support for this trade to continue, certainly it ought to look into issues that are That general business notice of motion No. 245 may be moved immediately and have precedence raised in a serious way in this place. over all other business today till determined. Senator BOB COLLINS (Northern Terri- tory) (10.36 a.m.)—I think it is important for Motion all senators to understand the reason why the Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) opposition will be supporting the motion for (10.39 a.m.)—I move: 4364 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

That the Senate— seem to me to be such an odd thing to do. If (a) notes that: there has been an investigation into the (i) on Sunday, 13 October 1996, Western sinking, perhaps the government could allevi- Australians will march in a public display ate our concerns and present to us the out- of opposition to the live sheep trade organ- come of that investigation. If an aircraft, a ised by People Against Cruelty in Animal passenger ship or a ferry went down with a Transport, loss of lives, there would obviously be an (ii) the Western Australian protest will coincide investigation. So instigating an investigation with a London-based protest by Compassion or providing a report to the Senate as to what in World Farming at the Australian High happened and why does not actually seem to Commission in which a wreath will be laid for the 67 488 sheep which burned to death me to be an unreasonable thing to do. or drowned in August 1996 with the sinking What about implementing measures to of the livestock transport ship, the Uniceb, prevent a similar disaster from occurring and again? It could be a case of, ‘Oh, well, these (iii) over 5 million live sheep are exported things happen; we have done the best we annually from Australia to the Middle East, and each year more than 100 000 of those can.’ But if it could be suggested that the die from heat stroke, disease or starvation standard of the ship was such that it was an during the journey; and accident waiting to happen, it is something for (b) calls on the Government to: all of us to be concerned about. (i) instigate an investigation into the sinking of We have had debates in this House on the the Uniceb and the deaths of 67 488 sheep, Ships of shame report and what we ought to including an investigation of the standards be doing and what standards are reached. If of the ship and inspection services, the standards are not being reached and if one of presence of veterinarian, and safety and rescue services and procedures, and the outcomes is that the live sheep trade is a result of part of this kind of shameful ship- (ii) implement measures to prevent a similar ping standard system, maybe in crews, in disaster happening again. standards, or in the safety of the ships, then I am not going to delay the chamber for any perhaps it is something we ought to be talking longer than is necessary. This issue obviously about, instead of pretending it is not happen- concerns a great many people in the coming or that it is simply an issue of protecting munity. It is one of those issues where people the agricultural industry. who see you walking along the street or people you meet who know you are a Green I have stood up here on many occasions will ask you, ‘What are you doing about the talking about appropriate regional develop- live sheep trade?’ There is a lot of concern ment and what we can be doing to meet the about it. It is not an anti-employment issue. employment and other needs in regional areas. As Senator Woodley has indicated, there is an I am certainly in favour of making sure that issue of value adding in Australia. regions do remain viable and have the means to remain viable. However, I do not think we The latest thing I heard on the media the are protecting anybody if we refuse to look at other day was that, although it is obvious that these issues. If we assume that everything that sheep can be killed in an approved manner in can possibly be done is being done, I do not Australia with proper ceremonies, there is think we are being serious about this. So if preference for freshness. One might say that asking a simple question to get a report on an that is a preference, and it is a market prefer- incident is considered to be outlandish, per- ence, but there are perhaps other good reasons haps in the future we might ask for a review, why Australian value adding ought to be which will obviously take more time. How- looked at in a different way. Why is Austral- ever, parliamentary inquiries—especially ian killed meat not considered acceptable? Senate inquiries—are very cost effective. Perhaps we ought to look at that issue. Perhaps we could look at that option. For the There are many issues here. Calling on the government to suggest that what we are government to investigate sinking would not asking for is unreasonable is a bit difficult, Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4365 considering that during the debate, I said to welfare conditions immediately before its last the government, ‘Come back to us with a voyage. form of wording. Say what you think is The Uniceb was registered in Panama and reasonable and we will listen to it.’ But we owned by an Italian group. Under the Interna- have heard nothing. tional Convention for the Safety of Ships at We have had this kind of response today: Sea, the authority and responsibility for ‘The problem does not exist. Everything is undertaking investigations into the sinking of terrific. There is no problem with the safety vessels lies with the country of the flag of ships carrying sheep. There is no problem registry. Australia has no rights under the with the amount of deaths occurring. There is international convention either to participate no problem with the way sheep are carried.’ in that investigation or, if we were to initiate That is putting your head in the sand. It is our own investigation, to require the cooper- time to start looking at these issues more ation of the flag registry, the underwriters or carefully and to at least start admitting that the owners. there is a responsibility for governments to The Minister for Primary Industries and keep up their international reputation on these Energy, Mr Anderson, has undertaken that, issues. Therefore I would seek support on the should the report of the Panamanian investi- substantive motion. gation point to any failures on the part of the Senator BROWNHILL (New South Australian shippers or any others, the matter Wales—Parliamentary Secretary to the will be thoroughly investigated and appropri- Minister for Trade and Parliamentary Secre- ate action taken. The minister has met with tary to the Minister for Primary Industries and both the RSPCA and the Australian and New Energy) (10.44 a.m.)—The government was Zealand Federation of Animal Societies to going to agree to this motion being called discuss the incident and also ways and means formal, but to vote against the motion when of improving animal welfare conditions on it was moved. I want to just mention a couple livestock export vessels. Both the RSPCA and of points that Senator Margetts has brought ANZFAS have agreed to work with the up about the animal welfare aspects of the minister in addressing issues of concern. Both trade. Yes, everyone is very concerned about groups have prepared submissions which are animal welfare, wherever they happen to be. under consideration. It was the previous government that estab- No-one could be unmoved by the suffering lished the National Consultative Committee involved in the death of the ship’s engineer, on Animal Welfare. That committee is still in as well as so many thousands of animals. operation and will continue to be in operation. Nonetheless, we do not believe it is a produc- So that looks after those aspects of animal tive use of the Senate’s time to debate the welfare. motion which we are now debating. I seek In relation to the other point Senator leave to have two documents incorporated in Margetts mentioned about there being no Hansard. One is about the live sheep trade consultation, we contacted her office about and the other gives full details of the Uniceb this to ask Senator Margetts to either agree to incident. I think they have been incorporated defer the motion or try to find an agreed in Hansard during another debate in this version of the motion. But, as far as the place. motion is concerned, I do not believe that Leave granted. would be possible to do with her. The documents read as follows— I would just make a couple of statements LIVE SHEEP CARRIER ‘UNICEB’—INDIAN about the motion. The Uniceb is a live sheep OCEAN INCIDENT vessel that sunk in the Indian Ocean at the A fire broke out on Saturday 31 August in the end of August. The ship was carrying 67,500 engine room of the Italian owned (Sistren Ser- sheep, destined for Aqaba in Jordan. The vices), Panama flagged, live sheep vessel ‘Uniceb’ Uniceb had passed an Australian safety which is chartered to exporters Wellards. The inspection and was inspected for animal vessel left Fremantle on 23 August carrying 67,500 4366 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 sheep bound for the Red Sea port of Aqaba in Uniceb had left port hurriedly before the Australian Jordan. Maritime Safety Authority (AMSA) could investi- Most reports indicate that the fire broke out on gate International Transport Workers’ Federation either Saturday 31 August or Sunday 1 September, concerns about conditions for the crew and stock but this is yet to be verified. It is most likely the on board. ship was 900-1000 miles north-east of Seychelles AMSA has confirmed that allegations were made when the fire broke out. about unsatisfactory conditions on the vessel. These It appears the fire commenced in the engine room related to operation of the crew accommodation air and spread rapidly to accommodation areas above conditioning system, incorrectly flushing toilets and causing the crew to abandon ship. The ship’s suspect drinking water quality. AMSA has con- engineer was lost overboard during this time. firmed it investigated the claims and in relation to the toilets and drinking water found them to be The crew later reboarded the ship and endeavoured without substance. AMSA also was satisfied with to fight the fire, but were driven off by heat and the outcome of discussions with the ship’s engineer smoke. They then drifted in life rafts for 20 hours regarding air conditioning in the crew’s accommo- or more until picked up by a passing ship the dation. AMSA reported there were no problems ‘Mineral Century’ on Monday 2 September. (This with the animal accommodation and that the ship vessel arrived in Suez on Tuesday 10 September.) had passed inspection in accordance with the We are not aware of any radio, phone or beacon Memorandum of Understanding on Port State contact during the fire. Upon hearing of the fire by Control and the Marine Orders. The ‘Uniceb’ had radio from the rescue vessel on the Monday, the a track record as a good, reliable vessel meeting all Italian owners dispatched on Tuesday a fire fighting AMSA standards. tug from Djibouti to the vessel in salvage/rescue attempt. The owners also on Tuesday diverted the THE TRADE ‘Cormo Express’ to the scene. This vessel had just The trade to the Middle East began in the 1960s completed unloading sheep in Karachi. and, with the advent of larger and more technically Both the salvage tug and the ‘Cormo Express’ advanced vessels, expanded rapidly to meet strong arrived at the point of last sighting on Friday 6 growth in demand in the region for freshly killed September. A US military aircraft also participated meat. in the search on either the Friday afternoon or 1. Last year Australia exported some 5.5 million Saturday covering approximately 200 sq miles. sheep worth around $207 million. Figures to end On the Tuesday 10 September reports confirmed June 1996 are currently running at the same levels that debris consistent with the sinking of the as last year. The Middle East is the primary ‘Uniceb’ had been sighted floating in the vicinity destination for shipments (99%) with the UAE and and it was concluded that the ship had sunk. The Jordan the single largest importing countries. search mission was then called off. 2. There are currently 25 licensed livestock The ship’s charterers, Wellard Rural Exports, exporters and 63 importers in 29 countries of believed the ship sank soon after the fire began. Australian sheep. The majority of animals used in This is based on the fact that two explosions were the trade are sourced from producers in WA, SA, heard by the crew drifting in lifeboats after they VIC, and southern NSW. were forced to abandon the ship and that, in the period between the ship being abandoned and the 3. While there was an increase in the carcass sighting of the debris, there were no reports of a trade following the halting of live exports to Saudi ship on fire in a major shipping lane into Suez and Arabia in 1991, it should be noted that there was the Middle East. a corresponding significant increase in live exports to neighbouring countries in subsequent years. Under the International Convention of Safety of Life at Sea, the flag registry, in this case Panama, 4. The AMLC estimates that, at a minimum, is required to undertake an inquiry. This is now 800,000 Australian live sheep are exported each being conducted by the Panama representative in year to other Middle Eastern countries, particularly Bombay and is expected to take some months. The UAE and Qatar, and then slaughtered and exported Australian Maritime Safety Authority has contacted to Saudi Arabia as sheep meat. The UAE has the Panamanian authorities noting the implications undergone sustained growth since 1990, becoming for Australia and requesting a copy of the report of Australia’s second largest market for live sheep. the inquiry into the incident. Further action by 5. This points to the fact that a number of Australian authorities will be decided in the light countries in the Middle East, including Saudi of the report of the Panamanian inquiry. Arabia, retain a strong preference for freshly killed As reported in the Sydney Morning Herald (6/9/96), meat which can only be met by the live animal the Maritime Union of Australia alleged that the trade. Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4367

6. The AMLC maintains a regular promotional Senator Brownhill—We all care. program to encourage increased consumption of chilled and frozen sheep meat. Through its overseas Senator BOB COLLINS—Indeed, Senator offices in key markets the ALMA promotes the Brownhill. The other reason it is important to trade through a comprehensive program of con- put some things on the record in this debate sumer and trade advertising and sales promotion backed up by a technical support service. is that animal welfare issues are not the only issue of controversy attached to the live 7. The advertising strategy focuses on news- animal trade. Indeed, Senator Margetts herself papers and magazines portraying Australian sheep meat as high quality and produced by a profession- has raised the second of those issues in the al industry. General merchandising and point-of- debate here this morning, and that is the im- sale material is also provided to stores carrying portant question of value adding—in other Australian sheep meat to differentiate the product words, the benefit to Australia of having all from competitors. The AMLC technical officers of the processing of these animals here in this advise retailers and consumers on the characterist- country and exporting chilled or frozen meat ics and specifications of Australian meat and rather than live animals. conducts butcher training programs on handling, preparation and presentation. Senator Brownhill—That is, of course, if 8. The AMLC’s efforts to promote sheep meat the customer wants that. consumption also extend to regularly contacting government officials, importers and agents to Senator BOB COLLINS—Indeed. That is maintain Australia’s reputation as a supplier of high something again that I want to put on the quality and safe product and reassure them, where record—I am sure the government would have appropriate, of the integrity of our export certifica- this position as well—as an important con- tion system. sideration. We would want to see that happen Everything has been done that can be done by to the maximum extent possible. For that the government of this country. I was also a reason, it is important that the particular part of the live sheep export inquiry undertak- trades involved be constantly examined for en by the Senate Select Committee on Animal that value adding aspect. Welfare. I believe that everything which was put in place by that inquiry has been adhered The third point that needs to be made is to. We are wasting a lot of time in the Senate that we are debating this morning a motion debating something that was discussed in a that is about the live sheep trade but, as we previous agenda item last Thursday in this all know, the debate at large is about the trade very place. in live animals. It extends to live cattle as well, because that group of people who want Senator BOB COLLINS (Northern Terri- to shut down this trade also want to shut tory) (10.49 a.m.)—I am sure that all honour- down the trade in live cattle. That is a matter able senators will accept that, on a controver- of public record and, of course, they are sial issue—like so many others—it is import- entitled to that view. ant that there be no ground given for any attempt to mischievously misconstrue a As Senator Margetts correctly referred to simple vote. In that sense, I can assure hon- this morning, live cattle exports are important ourable senators that there is no motive for regional Australia. That is why it is whatever—this is not our motion—in wasting important for me, not simply as the shadow the time of the Senate. After a number of minister for primary industries but as a North- negotiations between Senator Brownhill and ern Territory senator, to again put our view me over the past few days, we had indicated on this issue on the record. Some $160 that we would support the government on this million in trade might not be huge bickies for issue, and I do not want that position to be Australia in the global economic picture but misconstrued. I did not want any ground to be it is absolutely crucial in terms of the regional given for any mischievous press releases to be economy that generates that trade. I am put out saying that the opposition did not care talking about the live cattle trade from north- about the welfare of animals involved in this ern Australia into principally countries such trade. as Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines. 4368 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

Over the last three or four years that trade There are also a number of aspects of the has grown from $20 million or $30 million a trade—which Senator Margetts might find year to currently $130 million or $140 million interesting if she is not familiar with them; a year and it is going up. The animal welfare and she may be—that make it very unique. nature of that trade is excellent. I say that Senator Margetts mentioned this morning the because I have personally been on board the requirement in some of these countries for ships and inspected the conditions under fresh meat. There is no question about that. In which those cattle are exported. I can say other words, for cultural and all sorts of other categorically from personal experience that, reasons there is a preference on the part of the in welfare terms, conditions on board the customers to not have chilled or frozen meat. ships are significantly better than the condi- The customers may prefer meat that has been tions in the paddocks from which a lot of freshly prepared rather than slaughtered and these animals come. There is ample space, dressed out weeks or even months before and scrupulously clean conditions, plenty of room chilled or frozen.It is a fact that that is chan- for each individual animal— ging and there is a growing demand for chilled and frozen product. This is growing at Senator Margetts—That’s cattle, not the same time as our live export trade is sheep. growing. Senator BOB COLLINS—In response to There is another matter that has to be raised that interjection—and, with respect, it is in this regard. In some of the countries into ingenuous—I indicate that I have already which we are exporting live product there is made the point, and those of us who are a substantial lack of transport infrastructure engaged in this debate know what I am and chiller infrastructure. In other words, the talking about, that we are debating today the infrastructure that allows chilled and frozen issue of live sheep. It is ingenuous in the product to be moved in that condition from extreme to suggest that the debate proper is the wharf to a central facility and then to the only about live sheep. As you know, it is not. consumer does not exist. I have said that you are entitled to support I want to make the point because a lot of that view. The people who want to see this people even in the Northern Territory are not trade ceased are not simply concerned about aware that, with respect to that live trade, live sheep; they are concerned—and I am other important services are provided to the sorry that I have to say this again in response rural communities in those countries to which to the interjection—about live cattle. They we export the live product. A lot of people also want to see that closed down. who are aware that the trade exists do not Senator Brownhill—Horses. realise this happens. Cattle are exported from the port of Darwin to our near neighbours and Senator BOB COLLINS—Indeed. It is are bought by a central agency. The cattle are important that that particularly relevant issue then farmed out in small lots—two or three is also canvassed in this debate. The point animals—to villages and individual families. about value adding which Senator Margetts It was when I saw this happening that I made this morning also applies to the live realised the important structural implications cattle trade. The AMLC is, along with the and why I am confident that trade has a long industry itself, doing a great deal to contin- future ahead of it—and I note Senator Crane ually improve the acceptability and market is nodding his head. demand for our chilled and frozen mutton, lamb and beef. It has been a mark of the live Senator Crane—The infrastructure is they trade that those countries that are taking our can walk. live exports are also taking a continually Senator BOB COLLINS—Correct. Indi- increasing amount of our chilled and frozen vidual families look after these animals and product as the ability to buy continually fatten them up for six months or, in some improves and as the tastes of people in those cases, 12 months. The grandparents and countries changes. children feed them from the smallholdings on Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4369 which they are raised. They have an arrange- has essentially saved the cattle industry in ment with the central supplier that allows northern Australia—I might add, not only in them to participate in the profit when the the Northern Territory but particularly in animal is sold after it has been freshly slaugh- Queensland, where many of the cattle for this tered. There is a great lack of chiller infra- live trade come from. structure for frozen or chilled product to go Senator Crane—It has been pretty handy overseas. in WA too. The reason I labour this point, and it is an important point from our point of view, is that Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you, it is true that there is a lot of union concern, Senator Crane, for making that point. That is and quite understandable union concern. a fact. This trade has already grown to $160 million a year. Whilst that may not be big Senator Cooney—Properly so. dollars in global Australian terms, it is very Senator BOB COLLINS—I just said that, big dollars when you are talking about the Senator. impact that it is having on the regions that the Senator Cooney—I’m not attacking you. trade serves. I’m supporting you. In conclusion, to move to what is currently Senator BOB COLLINS—I know you are happening—Senator Brownhill has canvassed supporting me, Senator. A very legitimate this—there are an important number of things concern is that we are exporting jobs with that about this particular incident that need to be trade and that the animals should be slaugh- put on the record. There is an investigation tered here with Australian meatworks doing taking place into the sinking of the Uniceb. it. If that was actually happening to any great AMSA, the Australian Maritime Safety degree, I would be as concerned about that as Authority, has already indicated formally everybody else, but when you see the kind of Australia’s interest in this investigation and I trade we are talking about you realise there know, from my own experience with AMSA, are aspects of the trade which means that this that that is something they will follow is not happening. through. The encouraging thing is—I am pleased When the report on the sinking is available Senator Crane supported me in this contention and has been finalised—I have had this just a few minutes ago—that whilst we are assurance from the minister—if there are continuing to put a live product into these defects or aspects that the investigation raises markets, at the same time there is a clearly that are of continuing concern in an animal measurable increase in the amount of chilled welfare sense or any other sense, then Aus- and frozen products that are going into the tralia will reserve the right to continue that same market. The Australian product general- investigation under its own auspices. But it is ly has a reputation for quality, and the tastes important to make the point that, because of of those markets are changing. People are the area where this sad event occurred, we buying Australian chilled and frozen products have no rights to involve ourselves in that rather than somebody else’s. The live trade investigation or legally to demand the cooper- helps that. ation of any of the parties involved in it. It is important to put on the record, as In other words, the appropriate investigation Senator Margetts has properly raised it, that where these matters can be raised is being this is not, in real terms, a market that is made now. We have formally indicated our robbing Australia of jobs. It is a vitally desire to be a party to it. But we have no important market for regional Australia. In the rights under the international maritime con- case of the live cattle trade from the Northern ventions to which we are signatories to Territory, I have to say to Senator Margetts compel, in any investigation this Senate might that over the last three or four years, with initiate, the cooperation of anybody. The desperately bad drought conditions and a investigation that does have those rights is collapse in the price, it has been a market that under way now. 4370 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

There are further—this is also important— animals if there has been a failure to carry out investigations being conducted by the Bureau this vitally important animal welfare matter of Resource Sciences, which is undertaking prior to inspection. research into the occurrence of disease among The reason I make these points is to prove livestock exports with a view to being able to that Australia has nothing at all to fear or to recommend to government actions that might be concerned about in respect of the strictness be taken to further improve this situation. A with which these trades are supervised. study is currently under way in the bureau to Everyone acknowledges that there can be determine what, if anything, needs to be done further improvements with these trades. I to improve ventilation, for example, on might add in respect of the Northern Territory livestock vessels, especially to cope with the that there has been a dramatic improvement high Middle East temperatures that are experi- in the standard of the vessels that are being enced during the summer months. AMSA has used now to carry cattle to the point where in also been asked to review the design pens and animal welfare terms they represent five star loading densities. accommodation. I have seen that myself with I want to conclude on the question of vets, forced draft ventilation and high quality food which is included in the motion. It has cer- for the animals carried on board and so on. It tainly been my experience, in the investigat- is a very high standard indeed. The Bureau of ions that have been conducted into this trade, Animal Resource Sciences is continuing to that there are very few occasions where carry out research as to how the situation can having veterinary surgeons on board ships be further improved. would have made any material difference to I do not see the value in another investiga- the problems that commonly occur on those tion being mounted here in Australia, when ships in respect of the animals. There is a we are already party to the investigation that requirement—I think a proper requirement— is being conducted and that has legal stand- for mandating a minimum standard of experi- ing—which any investigation we mounted at ence for the people who actually look after this point would not have. If there are any the stock on board and there is a requirement deficiencies found with that report when it is for those people to be experienced in the finally produced it is open to us to take handling and care of that stock. further action at that point. Senator Tambling—That was in our report. Senator WOODLEY (Queensland) (11.09 Senator BOB COLLINS—Indeed, Senator a.m.)—I have read most of what Senator Calvert, it is in the report. There is a further Collins has given us in a briefing that was protection—I think a proper one—that has sent to my office. But that does not reassure been introduced in terms of the continuing me. I must say to Senator Collins that I attention that has been paid to the question of acknowledge that there are many improve- animal welfare, and that is that under AQIS’s ments being forced on this trade in terms of arrangements there is now a requirement for welfare but the motion calls on the govern- the clearance of stock by a qualified veterin- ment, not the Senate, to initiate an inquiry ary surgeon prior to their departure. AMSA and investigate. It sounds as though the are required to certify, from an animal welfare government is doing that. So I do not see any perspective, that the ship is in a proper condi- harm in that motion, and certainly no reason tion to carry animals. A veterinary inspection for the kind of reaction that it has had here and certification are required that the animals this morning. The motion calls on the govern- themselves are in a healthy condition prior to ment, not the Senate, to implement measures departure. to prevent a similar disaster happening again. This is not a toothless tiger. It is important That is a terribly reasonable proposition as far to make the point that any stock found by as I am concerned. AQIS that do not comply with this condition I personally support—and I want it on the can lead to the prosecution of both the veteri- record—the live sheep and cattle trade, but narian concerned and the shipper of the the best way to prejudice that trade is to Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4371 ignore issues. I know that this debate is not and it is not in the interests of the animal to be ignoring the issues. However, I am surprised transported to the Middle East for slaughter. at the reaction to a very simple and not at all The committee went on to acknowledge that controversial proposal that, I think, would the animal welfare aspects of the trade could reassure people out there who are concerned, not be divorced from economic and other who do not have the information we have and considerations. I am very aware of that. The who are very angry about what they see as live cattle trade and the live export sheep cruelty to animals. trade has been the only thing that has kept This is not necessarily a lot of wild-eyed our wool industry and our cattle industry people running down the street. The live afloat. The rest of it has been bad news, but sheep trade is opposed by the RSPCA, for the live animal trade has enabled them to example. I am not opposed to it, but I am survive. So I am aware of those economic and concerned about the impression given when other considerations. The committee recom- a very innocuous motion is put. I am not mended a range of reforms aimed at alleviat- saying that in a pejorative way. I am not ing at least some of the suffering of the trying to put Senator Margetts down; I think sheep. More importantly, the committee she was trying to be helpful by moving a recognised the need to develop a long term motion which I think should have been solution. It recognised that the substitution of accepted by everybody without debate, but is the refrigerated sheep meat trade offers such not. Despite what you say about press releas- a solution. es, Senator Collins, we do not need press I have listened to Senator Collins this releases. People who are concerned about morning. I acknowledge that for at least part these issues will read the Hansard. of this trade the customers do not accept Senator Bob Collins—I agree. But we frozen carcasses. I understand that. Neverthe- would have got some if we hadn’t said any- less, one still has a question in one’s mind thing. about whether or not the frozen carcass trade Senator WOODLEY—I do not know. has really been promoted as I think it should They may still go. I will not have the time, have been. The report said: but others may. The Federal government should promote and encourage the expansion of the refrigerated sheep- Senator Bob Collins—At least I am on the meat trade to the Middle East and other countries, record, Senator. with the aim of eventually substituting it for the Senator WOODLEY—Good. I want to live sheep trade. underline that I believe that what we are That was a report of 10 years ago, and I doing by not passing this motion is not know we have moved on. But I wanted to put reassuring the people who are concerned on the record that these concerns have been about the cruelty which is involved from time raised for a very long time. to time in this trade. The Senate Select Com- In answer to an interjection from Senator mittee on Animal Welfare tabled a report O’Chee before: I do not know about the about live sheep export 10 years ago. For the figures but, having had conversations with the students of history, the committee was chaired AMIEU in Townsville and in other places and by former Senator George Georges from having watched the closure of meatworks in Queensland, a friend of mine. It included my many towns in my state of Queensland, I am Democrat colleague from Western Australia, afraid that I take seriously what the meat- former Senator Jack Evans, and former workers union tells me about the loss of jobs. National Party Senate leader Senator Scott I believe we are losing jobs in that industry, from New South Wales. It was a very good we are closing down meatworks, and I cannot report. The report came to this conclusion: agree that there is no connection between that If a decision were to be made on the future of the and the live sheep trade. trade purely on animal welfare grounds, there is enough evidence to stop the trade. The trade is, in Senator Bob Collins—It might have many respects, inimical to good animal welfare, something with the price. 4372 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

Senator WOODLEY—It has got some- not agree with the very sensible recommenda- thing to do with the price, and that is the tions that she has made. The first, to instigate other problem, of course: once you supply an investigation, has been done, and we are one part of a market, of course you are going happy. We hope that it proceeds and we will to get a much higher price for that product— look for the report. The second recommenda- as we do get almost double the price for live tion, to implement measures to prevent a sheep as we get for sheep for slaughter. But similar disaster happening again, is simply one wonders whether or not, in reinforcing asking not the Senate but the government to one part of the trade, you in fact degrade the do that. Senator Margetts, you are to be other half. commended for bringing this motion. Certain- Senator Bob Collins—We don’t have a ly, the Democrats will support you. stranglehold on the sheep market. Senator CRANE (Western Australia) Senator WOODLEY—I cannot hear you, (11.19 a.m.)—I too would like to make some Senator Collins, or I would probably respond comments. I hope I will not go over the to your interjection. ground that has already been gone over because I know there are time constraints in Senator Bob Collins—We don’t have a this debate. I support the remarks of Senator world dominance on the sheep market. Some- Brownhill. I also acknowledge very strongly one else will certainly supply them if we the accuracy of the remarks made by Senator don’t. Collins on this issue. Senator WOODLEY—Yes, I am certainly aware of that. But let me point out, Senator My problem with this motion—and on the Collins, that the information I have contra- surface it looks perfectly all right—is that, dicts what you said. So it may be that we will firstly, it cannot be implemented with any need to consult later on. The Australian Meat force whatsoever or with any effectiveness and Livestock Corporation advised my of- and, secondly, what it is actually seeking to fice—I hope Senator Collins is listening—that have done is being done or has already been the frozen carcass trade actually declined by done. So we have a motion before us which nearly half last financial year due to the can go nowhere and in effect do very little. product simply not being available during the There is already a commitment, if we are not peak supply period. That is an interesting satisfied with what comes out of the interna- statistic. I do not know whose information is tional inquiry, that the government will take correct; I am simply giving you what the further action on this issue. I do not know Australian Meat and Live-stock Corporation how much further you can go in a practical advised my office. We will have to compare sense. our sources, I think, and find out what the There are couple of matters I want to deal true situation is. But that certainly would with on the issues that have been raised here. seem to indicate that priority in supply is You cannot deal with this resolution in being given to the live sheep trade over the isolation from the total sheep industry— carcass trade. including the woolgrowing industry—from We have already debated the issues of value mutton production in this country and from adding, and live sheep trade and live cattle what occurs when we see changes in how live trade must be the least value added industry sheep are received or imported into various that one could imagine. We all know the countries. importance to primary industry of value There are realities we have to face with adding. regard to the economics of this. And I should These are the concerns the Democrats have. declare an interest here because I have been I believe that Senator Margetts was being involved in the live sheep export trade as a responsible in raising this issue here. I know producer now for as long as I can remember, we have had the debate, but I cannot under- going back to the Singapore wether days, the stand why the government and opposition do big thumpers—which is a long time ago Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4373 indeed, when this trade first became recog- of that in 1991. Senator Calvert and Senator nised in Western Australia. Brownhill were on that committee, and I Senator Bob Collins—You’re extremely believe Senator Burns was chairman at that old. particular time. I have not actually checked that, but I am pretty certain that is correct. Senator CRANE—I am very old when it comes to some of this, but I was very young Senator Calvert—Senator Cooney over then, so I am not so old after all. I can re- here was on it. member at about five years of age helping Senator CRANE—Senator Cooney—good, Dad load Singapore shipping wethers onto the well done. I do not believe there is any other back of a truck—or it might even have been industry in Australia that has been so thor- a wagon in those days. oughly researched and worked through. One Senator Bob Collins—Probably drawn by has to acknowledge that. Back in the 1970s horses. I went on board ships and had a look at what Senator CRANE—Yes, it was. happened then. It is a very different scenario today. Senator Woodley—I can remember those days. There is no doubt that it was very sad, very Senator CRANE—I can too. I make the disappointing, when this ship burnt and sank. point that you cannot deal with this in isola- It is worth pointing out that—and I do not tion. I recognise that this economic argument know what else could have been done in that it costs jobs in Australia has been argued Australia in that circumstance—the Uniceb many times. But I want to refer people to the was subjected to an AMSA safety inspection Geoff Miller report that was done in the early in May 1996 and was passed as fit for oper- 1980s. I am not sure if it was at the end of ation in Australian waters. It was again the Fraser government or the beginning of the inspected for animal welfare conditions prior Hawke government, but that goes into the to its loading in Fremantle, immediately whole economic structure of what occurs in before its last voyage. So, in debating this the live sheep trade. issue, we cannot say that the processes that have been put in place were not adequate. The particular point is that, when the live The reason I referred to the past is that there sheep trade out of this country drops off, have been, are and will continue to be im- substitution comes in and those live sheep provements in this particular trade. then go into the meatworks. The amount of mutton that was being processed through the I wish to also emphasise the point, having meatworks from other sheep that were not been on the modern ships, that the sheep go suitable for live shipment then drops off, and through pre-feeding and other processes the net result is that the vast majority of those before they go on the ship—they do not go sheep that were previously going through the directly onto the ship—and in fact in many abattoirs get shot. It is as simple as that. In instances the sheep live in better conditions practice, that is what happens. There is a than they actually do out in the paddock. The direct substitution, as you go down the line, improvement that has occurred there is very when live sheep trade drops off. That is very significant. important. When looking at the economics of I want to now re-emphasise a point Senator this particular trade, we must take into ac- Bob Collins made earlier. With the develop- count the production stage, the abattoir stage, ment of the live sheep trade into many of the live sheep trade stage and the production these countries, the consumption of processed of sheep foodstuff that goes onto the ships. meats has been gradually going up and will I make another point while referring to continue to go up. That is part of the process. these two reports—Export of live sheep from There may come a time when the economics Australia, a report from the Senate Select will indicate that most, if not all, of the meat Committee on Animal Welfare in 1985, which will be processed. I doubt whether it will ever has already been mentioned, and the update be all because there are other issues, such as 4374 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 religious ceremonies and lack of transport, about to be defeated. But it was well worth involved. raising because it goes to the issue of how One of the things that is very important to animals should be properly treated. We as a the people in the Middle East is the fact that nation ought to see to that. Senator Brownhill, those animals can actually walk around the who began the debate for those opposing the place. That is how they take them and utilise motion, has done splendid work on the animal many of them. When we do not supply them, welfare committee. He would understand what they come from countries north of them or I am saying. The debate has been about from South America, potentially from South trying to see to the economy and, at the same Africa or from other countries. So there is a time, see to the proper treatment of animals. direct substitution for the live sheep trade. They are issues that cannot be resolved at one time. I agree with the thrust of what Senator One must also acknowledge—with the Margetts has said: this ought to be an ongoing sadness of this particular event I mentioned— issue. that sheep get burnt when fires get away from national parks. Do we legislate against that? We could go to plenty of people to get I have also seen situations where floods have some material about this. Senator Woodley occurred and sheep have been drowned. It is spoke about the Australian Meat Industry all very sad, but these things, unfortunately, Employees Union in Queensland. Certainly are realities of life. that is a body to which we should pay great I want to acknowledge and congratulate all heed. those people who over the last 20 to 25 years Senator Brownhill—Of course, hardly any have been involved in the process of gradual- sheep go from Queensland. ly improving the conditions in the live sheep Senator COONEY—I was going to go on, trade. In mentioning that, I must also include Senator Brownhill, and talk about that union in that the road transport sector, which is a in Victoria. Live sheep were taken from very important part of it. If we look at the Victoria. trucks that carry the stock today compared to those that existed 10, 15, 20 or 25 years ago, Senator Brownhill—Correct. you really do see the Rolls Royce of inven- Senator COONEY—The secretary of the tion, of modification, of application. There union in Victoria, Mr Walter Curran, is one has been an enormous improvement in the of the most outstanding unionists that this training that is given to the people who drive country has been blessed with. Senator Crane those trucks by the various operators. would agree that Wally Curran is the sort of I will conclude my remarks by re- person who could give us a great deal of emphasising that it is indeed an unfortunate advice about this because he is a man of great incident that occurred. We have to work to compassion. Mr Acting Deputy President, I improve the situation. I look forward to the see that you agree with what I am saying outcome of the international report. If I am now. Wally Curran not only has compassion not satisfied with that report when it comes but also has a great business sense and a great before us, I will, as I am sure other senators idea of how the economy should run. He is in this place will, proceed or endeavour to the sort of person whose advice we would have additional work done on this issue. In look to if there were to be an inquiry—which the meantime, I believe it is pointless for this I understand there is not at this stage. place to pass a motion which cannot imple- Senator Brownhill—There has been an ment anything more. In fact, it would not go inquiry. as far as the action that has already been taken. Senator COONEY—I know. Of course Senator COONEY (Victoria) (11.28 there have been inquiries. In fact, the animal a.m.)—This has been a very good debate. It welfare committee— arises from a very useful motion by Senator Senator Brownhill—You were on it, Margetts, which, unfortunately, I think is Senator Cooney. Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4375

Senator COONEY—I know. What I said wording. We offered that to the minister. In before, and I think this is the point that the end, the minister said he was not interest- Senator Margetts is making, is that, as with ed in changing the wording. So I would like many things, you cannot come to a conclusion to invite Senator Brownhill to correct that. at one point of time and think that is the end of the matter. These things keep developing. Senator Brownhill—Can I say that what This motion is a development. The disaster you have just said is correct. that happened to this ship certainly raises Senator MARGETTS—I will allow you to other issues. do that on the Hansard; that would be fine— All I am saying is that, whether it is in the through you, Mr Acting Deputy President. inquiry that Senator Margetts suggests or Senator Brownhill—It is in Hansard now. some other inquiry, there are lots of people we could turn to out there. As an example, I Senator MARGETTS—Through you, Mr mention the Victorian secretary of the Aus- Acting Deputy President, I do not think an tralian Meat Industry Employees Union, and interjection in this case is adequate; I think perhaps as well the deputy secretary, Mr time should be made available for a statement Graham Bird, who is also an outstanding to be made. figure in this area. Through you, Mr Acting An Australian cargo was involved. The Deputy President, all I can say to Senator indication is that Australia has no rights to Margetts is that now is not the time for this conduct an investigation. It is true that Aus- motion. Certainly I hope she remains interest- tralia has no rights under the international ed because this is a vital area. convention to either participate in an investi- Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) gation or to insist on access from the flag (11.33 a.m.)—in reply—In closing the debate registry, the underwriters or the owners. That today, I would like to agree with Senator does not mean to say that Australia has no Cooney that this is an important and timely rights to an investigation. debate. In my opinion, it is not wasting the It should also be noted here that the Uniceb, Senate’s time to ensure that the right and the ship involved, is registered in Panama. proper platform is used for these important Often ships registered in Panama are con- debates. Sometimes it is assumed that only sidered to have flags of convenience. Panama the government’s agenda is important. But has had many problems with its standard of that is not the case; the community agenda is shipping. On many occasions we have had also important. debates as to the adequacy of what we in I need to take up one point that I have Australia can do in relation to the standard of mentioned privately to Senator Brownhill. shipping. I do not think it is sufficient— Senator Brownhill gave an indication, presum- Senator Woodley—Ships of shame. ably from a briefing note that he has, that the Greens did not take up an offer to change the Senator MARGETTS—The Ships of wording of the motion or to defer it. We did shame report, as Senator Woodley interjects. defer the motion; in fact we have deferred it It is not sufficient to say that Australia can do a couple of times. I believe the briefing is out nothing. We have had debates here about the of date. So I believe it is necessary for Sena- ability of the Australian Maritime Safety tor Brownhill at the first available time to Authority to undertake adequate inspections. correct the inference that was given because, I am on record as saying that the resources quite late last night, the office of Senator that are available to the Australian Maritime Parer, the Minister for Resources and Energy, Safety Authority simply do not give it the contacted my office saying, in effect, that all ability to make full and adequate safety bets were off and that the motion would be inspections. In the past we have had very opposed. It is fine for the motion to be op- damning reports from the Auditor-General posed, but it is simply not true that the indicating similar things, that there have been Greens were not interested in changing the problems. 4376 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

The fact that the Australian Maritime Safety sion on live cattle exports. There are a num- Authority inspection in May 1996 passed the ber of reasons for that. Uniceb as fit for operation in Australian Those reasons include the fact that there is waters needs to be taken further. Perhaps we a great deal of concern about the level of need to know what was the nature of the overstocking and land degradation in pastoral inspection, how long it took, and how ad- areas of Western Australia. One way of equate it was. What did AMSA inspect, and getting cattle growers to look after their land what was the basis of its being able to say it better and not overstock it is by convincing was fit for operation? If it is as a result of a them to produce higher value breeding stock. lack of resources that AMSA was not alerted That is an issue which we, as well as other to potential problems, or if it is something people in the community, are considering. that was nothing whatever to do with adequate inspection, we are entitled to know Further, there is no single opinion on the these things. If we see what is an AMSA farming of native animals. There are people report, that is fine, but perhaps there needs to in the environment movement who believe be some scrutiny as to whether AMSA simply that emus and kangaroos should not be has a lack of resources or whether something considered for farming. There are other different is the problem. people in the environment movement who believe it is more beneficial to the environ- I am pleased to see that there is some ment to farm animals appropriate to our interest. A number of people have been environment and climate. That debate still alerted to the issue and will be watching occurs and it is very healthy. carefully for, firstly, the outcome of the international investigation and, secondly, the It is wrong to assume that there is one view AMSA response. You can be sure that we in the environment movement, and it is wrong will revisit this debate when we hear that re- to assume that there is one view among the sponse. If it be a matter of AMSA resourcing, Greens in relation to these issues. It is right the Australian government has a responsibility to assume that these debates should occur. to address the matter. If AMSA does not have The problem is suggesting that the issue is proper resources—I am just surmising that—it about animal exports in general. That detracts has to be dealt with. from the fact that because sheep exports are, on a unit by unit basis, a much lower value I also want to deal briefly with comments product, the pressures, understandably, are that Senator Bob Collins made in relation to much greater on growers not to create a the cattle trade. Senator Collins made an requirement for improved conditions. assumption which, I believe, was unwarrant- I can understand these issues. We should ed. The assumption was that if I move a not look at them and simply say that we know motion in relation to the standards of the that standards could be considerably better for shipping of live sheep, I am associated auto- cattle exports. But that does not mean that as matically with an attack on the live cattle a community and a parliament we should not export trade. be looking at the standard of shipping, the Senator Bob Collins—I didn’t say you standard of crewing and the health and hu- were, Senator. mane standards of live sheep exports. Senator MARGETTS—There was an I am very pleased that this debate has implication. The word ‘ingenuous’ was used. occurred. I still call on the Senate to support the motion, but I can count. I look forward to Senator Bob Collins—But not in respect of the outcome of any inquiry that takes place your good self. on this matter. Senator MARGETTS—Despite that, I Senator BROWNHILL (New South make it very clear that within my support Wales—Parliamentary Secretary to the base—the Greens (WA) and the green move- Minister for Trade and Parliamentary Secre- ment in general—there is no clear-cut deci- tary to the Minister for Primary Industries and Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4377

Energy) (11.42 a.m.)—by leave—Seeing that Tierney, J. Troeth, J. Senator Margetts wanted me to make a Vanstone, A. E. West, S. M. statement—which she has already made and Woods, R. L. which I have already interjected on—I will * denotes teller say that the government contacted Senator Question so resolved in the negative. Margetts’s office and eventually said that we would not be supporting her motion. I said VISIT BY US NUCLEAR WARSHIP that in my interjection. I think she also needs Motion (by Senator Brown)—by leave— to realise that the National Consultative Com- negatived: mittee on Animal Welfare also does a lot for animal welfare. That the Senate— (a) endorses letters from the Speaker of the Question put: Tasmanian State House of Assembly and That the motion (Senator Margetts’s) be agreed from the Leader of the Parliamentary to. Greens in Tasmania, Christine Milne, asking United States President Clinton to call off the impending incursion into Hobart harbour The Senate divided. [11.50 a.m.] by the nuclear powered and armed warship, USS Carl Vinson; (The President—Senator the Hon. Margaret Reid) (b) instructs the President of the Senate to inform the United States President that, Ayes ...... 11 while his impending visit to Australia is Noes ...... 53 welcome, the visit of the nuclear warship is —— not. Majority ...... 42 —— Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (11.52 AYES a.m.)—Madam President, pursuant to contin- Allison, L. Bourne, V. * gent notice, I move that so much of the— Brown, B. Colston, M. A. The PRESIDENT—As the substantive Harradine, B. Kernot, C. motion has been voted against, the matter is Lees, M. H. Margetts, D. Murray, A. Stott Despoja, N. concluded, Senator. Woodley, J. COMMITTEES NOES Abetz, E. Alston, R. K. R. Community Standards Committee Bishop, M. Boswell, R. L. D. Brownhill, D. G. C. Calvert, P. H. Report Campbell, I. G. Chapman, H. G. P. Senator TIERNEY (New South Wales) Childs, B. K. Collins, J. M. A. (11.53 a.m.)—I present the report of the Collins, R. L. Conroy, S. Cook, P. F. S. Coonan, H. Select Committee on Community Standards Cooney, B. Crane, W. Relevant to the Supply of Services Utilising Crowley, R. A. Denman, K. J. Electronic Technologies entitled R- rated Eggleston, A. Ellison, C. material on pay TV part 2 and review of the Evans, C. V. Faulkner, J. P. guidelines for the classification of film and Ferguson, A. B. Ferris, J Foreman, D. J. * Forshaw, M. G. videotapes, together with the Hansard record Gibbs, B. Heffernan, W. of proceedings. Hill, R. M. Hogg, J. Kemp, R. Lundy, K. Ordered that the report be printed. Macdonald, I. Macdonald, S. Senator TIERNEY—I move: Mackay, S. McKiernan, J. P. Murphy, S. M. Neal, B. J. That the Senate take note of the report. Newman, J. M. O’Brien, K. W. K. O’Chee, W. G. Parer, W. R. I seek leave to have the tabling speech in- Patterson, K. C. L. Reid, M. E. corporated in Hansard. Reynolds, M. Schacht, C. C. Short, J. R. Tambling, G. E. J. Leave granted. 4378 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

The speech read as follows— The Film and Video Guidelines were last revised in 1988 and the Committee had recommended in This report is timely. It comes at a time when a Part 1 of its report tabled in February 1995, that a major Pay TV operator is advertising a service review of those guidelines should be undertaken. which will consist mainly of showing R-rated The OFLC undertook such a review last year in material on Pay TV. The Committee is not satisfied 1995 and the revised Guidelines were gazetted in that the concerns which it has previously expressed September this year. It is those guidelines that the on this matter have been addressed before such a Committee has reviewed. service is made available on subscription or pay television. The Committee recognises that the new guidelines In previous reports on this issue, the Committee are intended to be more strict in relation to depic- indicated its belief that the Australian Broadcasting tions of violence and sexual violence but it is Authority (ABA) should complete extensive concerned that there is still a lack of precision Australia-wide qualitative and quantitative research about the criteria which is to be applied when on community standards of taste and decency in making classification decisions. The Committee is relation to classifications for pay television, and on particularly concerned to see to it that video what levels of violence and depiction of sex should material which enters the home environment should be allowed. The Parliament also indicated its have lower levels of intensity in relation to depic- support for such research in the Schedule to the tion of violence and sexual violence. Accordingly, Broadcasting Services Act 1992 (Schedule 2, Part the Committee is recommending that separate 6). The Committee reported to the Senate in 1995 guidelines be introduced for the classification of that the ABA’s research was flawed and recom- videotapes to ensure that higher standards are mended that the OFLC recast the R category. In applied than for equivalent categories of film for their latest report on this matter the OFLC has cinema release. undertaken some minor adjustments to R but not carried out the comprehensive recast of R required by the Community Standards Committee. Of great concern to the Committee was the fact that video material which has been given a particu- So in this report, the Committee’s first major lar classification prior to the introduction of the recommendation is for the Broadcasting Services system of consumer advice in 1989 and those rated Act 1992 to be amended to prevent the broadcast M prior to the introduction of the MA classification of R-rated and X-rated material on pay TV. in 1993 are still available in the community under The Committee also expresses its concern in this the old classifications. The Committee believes that report at the lack of accountability in the decision- such material should be recalled and reclassified in making process adopted by the Commonwealth, the light of the newly issued stricter guidelines and State and Territory Censorship Ministers when it has made a recommendation to that effect. making decisions in relation to the Classification Act and to the guidelines. The Committee believes The OFLC has foreshadowed a review of the that amendments to the National Code under publications and computer games classification section 6 of the Classification (Publications, Films guidelines. The Committee believes that these and Computer Games) Act 1996 and determinations reviews should be conducted with greater accounta- or amendments of the classification guidelines bility and transparency and the Committee looks under section 12 should be disallowable instruments forward to being involved in the review process. I by the Commonwealth Parliament. It is recom- commend the report to the Senate. mending that the Classification Act be amended accordingly. I seek leave to continue my remarks later. The Committee is repeating its call for a restructuring of the Office of Film and Literature Classifica- Leave granted; debate adjourned. tion (OFLC). It is important that the community should perceive the OFLC to be truly reflective of community standards. One way for this to be Publications Committee achieved would be for the OFLC to work closely with a community committee which represents Report major interest groups such as parents, teachers, churches, academics, women, young people, Senator CALVERT (Tasmania) (11.54 aboriginal and ethnic groups. The Committee is a.m.)—On behalf of Senator Sandy Macdon- recommending that such a community committee ald, I present the third report of the Standing be set up and that the positions of Director and Committee on Publications. deputy Director of the Classification Board be drawn from such community representatives. Ordered that the report be adopted. Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4379

NATIVE TITLE AMENDMENT BILL Commonwealth funding for the vocational educa- 1996 tion and training sector for 1996 has already been appropriated under the Vocational Education and Message from the House of Training Funding Act 1992. Representatives This bill would provide for supplementation of the Message received from the House of Repre- 1996 amount in line with normal price adjustments. sentatives acquainting the Senate with a The bill would also assure a Commonwealth resolution of that House: contribution of $891 million in 1997 for vocational education and training. (1) That: Although this is a reduction of the previously (a) the amendments to the Native Title Amend- legislated amount, it would still provide an increase ment Bill 1996 which are contained in the of $10.6 million over 1996 funding. exposure draft presented to the House this Care has been taken in identifying the savings to day be referred to the Parliamentary Joint ensure that they have minimum impact on training Committee on Native Title and the Aborigi- opportunities. This reflects the Commonwealth’s nal and Torres Strait Islander Land Fund for emphasis on growth in student places, particularly consideration and an advisory report to the for young people. House in conjunction with the Committee’s consideration and reporting on the matter Funding for 1997 includes $70 million for growth referred to the Committee on 27 June 1996; funds. (b) the time for the advisory report by the The Commonwealth expects states and territories Committee to the House be extended from to continue to honour their undertakings spelled out 1 November 1996 to 18 November 1996; in the Australian National Training Authority and (ANTA) agreement, including maintaining their own effort in the vocational education and training (c) the terms of this resolution, so far as they sector. are inconsistent with the standing and sessional orders, have effect notwithstanding The bill would also appropriate funding for 1998, anything contained in the standing and in accordance with the Commonwealth’s undertak- sessional orders. ing in the ANTA agreement to provide triennial funding for the vocational education and training VOCATIONAL EDUCATION AND sector. TRAINING FUNDING AMENDMENT I commend the bill to the Senate. BILL 1996 Ordered that further consideration of the First Reading second reading of this bill be adjourned until the first day of sitting in the autumn sittings Bill received from the House of Representa- 1997, in accordance with the order agreed to tives. on 29 November 1994. Motion (by Senator Campbell) agreed to: COMMITTEES That this bill may proceed without formalities and be now read a first time. Membership Bill read a first time. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT Second Reading (Senator Ferguson)—The President has received a letter from the Leader of the Senator CAMPBELL (Western Australia— Government in the Senate seeking to dis- Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for the charge a senator from various committees. Environment and Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Sport, Territories and Local Motion (by Senator Campbell)—by Government) (11.55 a.m.)—I move: leave—agreed to: That this bill be now read a second time. That Senator Kemp be discharged from the following committees: I seek leave to have the second reading Community Affairs Legislation Committee speech incorporated in Hansard Economics Legislation Committee Leave granted. Environment, Recreation, Communications and The speech read as follows— the Arts Legislation Committee 4380 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

Finance and Public Administration Legislation and consumer service guarantees are firmly Committee entrenched in the Telecommunications Act of Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legisla- 1992. They are not diminished or affected in tion Committee any way by the passage of this bill. Legal and Constitutional Legislation Commit- Telstra’s obligations to the consumers are tee not diluted by part-privatisation, and whether Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport ownership of Telstra will be 100 per cent Legislation Committee. public or one-third privatised has no bearing TELSTRA (DILUTION OF PUBLIC at all on the government’s commitment to the OWNERSHIP) BILL 1996 USO. The bill, in fact, provides new benefits to business and a guarantee of no timed local Second Reading calls for business users. Debate resumed from 16 October, on The bill in no way affects the existing motion by Senator Newman: legislative or other protections of directory That this bill be now read a second time. assistance, untimed local calls and the provi- Senator TIERNEY (New South Wales) sion of public telephone call boxes across (11.57 a.m.)—When I was interrupted by a Australia. For example, the USO expenditure move to other business last night, I was by Telstra in the rural electorate of Grey— speaking on the Telstra (Dilution of Public which would be close to your heart, Mr Ownership) Bill and expressing considerable Acting Deputy President Ferguson, because it surprise, having sat through the same set of is in your area and you will be heartened to hearings as members of the opposition, that know this—is $21 million and that will be they could come to such radically different retained under this legislation. Additional conclusions based on the evidence. Govern- evidence provided to the Senate inquiry ment senators who participated in this inquiry highlights how improved efficiencies in a strongly recommended at the end of the partly privatised Telstra would flow through evidence that the bill be passed in its present to the communications sector and to the wider form. community. We rejected the key recommendations of Potential gains in living standards are the opposition parties that Telstra remain in estimated to be $2 billion. Reductions in the full public ownership. Importantly, in light of price of communications services are estimat- the motion foreshadowed this morning, we ed to be in the order of 12 per cent. The long also rejected that the bill be split. We rejected run gain economy wide to the GDP will be that the $1 billion national heritage environ- $1.7 billion and the economy wide gain in ment package be funded from other sources. wages is estimated to be $3 a week. We did this because we had expert witnesses Stimulation of the development of telecom- appear before the committee. We had witness- munications services and equipment industries es from the Department of Communications will be another beneficial outcome of a and the Arts who detailed the provisions of growing and robust Telstra. Service delivery this bill and raised very convincing arguments to all Australians will improve considerably, that it would deliver world-class consumer as it has in a similar exercise undertaken in protection guarantees prior to the part- New Zealand. Over there, waiting time for privatisation. new phone line connections is down from six The evidence that we were given complete- weeks to three days. That is the sort of ly demolished the opposition parties’ attempts benefit you get when you bring in some of to make wild scaremongering claims about the the disciplines of the marketplace. The com- loss of consumer protection when we move to pany actually becomes responsive to what the part-privatisation of Telstra. They began consumers want. this scare campaign during the 1996 election There is a bonus in all this as well in that and they refined this further in the debate. what we are proposing keeps Telstra almost The universal service obligation—the USO— totally Australian owned. At least 88.3 per Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4381 cent will be off limits to foreign ownership operating and offering employment in region- and the maximum individual holding for any al Australia. one investor in Telstra will be 1.7 per cent, The opposition in this debate and during the accumulating to a total of 11.7 per cent for all Senate inquiry have peddled so-called em- overseas ownership. ployment ‘nasties’ to frighten the community. Let me turn finally to the enormous benefits Specifically, Labor has charged that massive for rural and regional Australia of the part job reductions will occur in Telstra across privatisation of Telstra. As communications regional and rural Australia. These allegations costs are reduced in regional Australia, new are not true. Qualified Telstra technicians will jobs will be created. One of the great things win new, interesting jobs on the payroll of about new technology in communications is new telcos and communications companies. that it does not really matter where you are In 1996-97, 70 to 80 per cent of Telstra located if you are on the information redundancies will occur in metropolitan areas, superhighway. It gives the nation a real not rural areas. Tasmania, for example, will opportunity to decentralise industries that do be affected by less than one per cent of the not really have to be in the centre of the redundancies. major cities. Failure by Telstra to become efficient and cost effective post-1997 as a 100 per cent The reduced communications costs and new publicly owned company will only see Telstra services provided will disproportionately, we lose more market share to those new, eager believe, benefit rural and regional Australia. competitors we will be getting after the The cost disadvantage of living and doing middle of next year. Employment levels and work outside metropolitan areas will come job opportunities will really be eroded if this down substantially, making regions more is allowed to happen. Telstra could become attractive for establishing new businesses. like another publicly owned dinosaur—maybe Telephone inquiry centres for banks, company like the ANL or the National Rail Corpora- service centres, catalogue sales—these are all tion. the sorts of things that can be located in country areas. Tele industries for airline and Labor, in government, oversaw a very large hotel reservations, insurance and car rental downsizing of employment at Telstra. In firms will also have inducements to go to 1985, Telecom employed over 90,000 people. rural areas, as has occurred in the United Under the Labor government, the Telstra States. In places like Nebraska those sorts of work force fell to 76,000 people. That had industries have moved out of the big cities to nothing to do with part privatisation. That was rural areas because of lower costs, to the great driven by changes in technology. All of that benefit of rural employment. downsizing, I remind the Senate, occurred under full public ownership. Contrary to Labor’s scare campaign, the Technological change and progressive part privatisation of Telstra will have positive digitisation of the network is the thing that effects on employment in the overall telecom- drives the trend. Digitisation of networks munications sector and supplier industries. means lower operating costs for access lines The sector is growing at 18 per cent per and reduced employment. After a slow start, annum. Job cuts in Telstra will be offset by Telstra is starting to match the overseas new opportunities in this sector and in the telcos, but it is 25 per cent off the pace. The economy as a whole. pace needs to be accelerated. It will be accel- Alan Horsley from the Australian Telecom- erated with the part privatisation of Telstra. munications Users Group told the Senate I welcome the announcement by the inquiry that members of his industry group Minister for Communications and the Arts face a desperate shortage of qualified staff. (Senator Alston) on Telstra’s timetable for Telstra staff are qualified and will be snapped upgrading the phone network. This develop- up by new players in the communications ment is a sign of the efficiencies that we can sector. Many of these new companies will be expect under part privatisation. Telstra will be 4382 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 brought up to world standard by the passage election in March 1996 was that, on the one of this bill. The open communications market hand, the Liberal-National Party said that they post- 1997 demands that Telstra be allowed would proceed to sell Telstra and, on the to compete effectively with new players. To other hand, the Australian Labor Party, the oppose this bill is not to save Telstra; rather, Democrats and the Greens made it abundantly it will sow the seeds of Telstra’s decline. I clear that they would not support the legisla- support the bill and commend its passage to tion and that they would proceed in the the Senate. (Time expired) Senate to reject it. Senator FORSHAW (New South Wales) The figures from the recent elections show (12.07 p.m.)—The government’s proposal to that a majority of people, both in the House sell off Telstra is, like the workplace relations of Representatives elections and in the Senate, bill, another disastrous piece of legislation—a voted for the parties that were on the record piece of legislation that will do irreparable as opposing the sale of Telstra. In the House harm to the economic and social infrastructure of Representatives, 47.2 per cent of people of Australia. I deliberately use the words ‘to voted for the Liberal and National parties. sell off Telstra’ because that is what this Some 38.8 per cent of people voted for the government has in mind. Notwithstanding that Australian Labor Party, 6.8 per cent of people the Telstra (Dilution of Public Ownership) voted for the Democrats and 2.9 per cent of Bill currently before the Senate proposes the people voted for the Greens. A total of 48.5 one-third privatisation of Telstra, we know per cent of the Australian electorate in respect that the real agenda of the government is the of the House of Representatives voted for the total privatisation, the total sale of Telstra. parties that were completely opposed to the It has been confirmed by Senator Alston, sale of Telstra on the record and had put that the Minister for Communications and the policy to the people. Arts, that that is the government’s real agenda. Once we proceed down the path of the So a majority of people voted against this partial sale of Telstra, the inevitable result proposal, voted for the parties that were will be its complete sale. What we are really opposed to the sale of Telstra, notwithstand- debating is the future of Telstra as, firstly, a ing the fact that the Liberal and National fully publicly owned corporation and, second- parties won the majority of seats. When you ly, as the major corporate government asset come to the Senate, the figures are even more that the people of Australia have. conclusive. In the Senate the Liberal-National Telstra is the country’s largest owned Party’s vote dropped to 43.47 per cent of the government asset. It is the people’s greatest vote. The Australian Labor Party obtained and most valuable corporate asset. The 36.15 per cent. The Democrats increased, as government has said that they have a mandate one would have expected, to 10.82 per cent for this legislation. They seek to rely upon the and the Greens increased to 3.17 per cent. fact that they put to the people at the last In the Senate vote, 50.14 per cent of the election that, if elected, they would proceed Australian electorate voted for the parties that to sell one-third of Telstra and set up this were on the record as opposing the sale of phoney environment fund, which I will come Telstra and making very clear to the Austral- back to later. They seek to rely upon the fact ian people that when the legislation came that because they won government—and I before the Senate they would oppose it. That concede that; they won government signifi- compares with only approximately 43.5 per cantly in terms of the number of seats they cent of people who supported the govern- obtained in the House of Representatives— ment’s proposal. So let us not have any of they somehow have a mandate from the this nonsense that somehow the government people. I refute that. The results of the federal has a mandate from the people on this issue; elections put the lie to that claim. an issue that was widely debated and fully The one big issue that the people were before the public mind when it cast its votes made fully aware of at this most recent on March 2. Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4383

There is no doubt that the Australian people Not only is Telstra still a major employer knew that, even though they were disposed to but it is also one of the major investors in vote to remove the Labor Party after a quite capital infrastructure in this country, particu- lengthy period in office—not an unnatural larly in information technology. Telstra is not thing, notwithstanding my great disappoint- some lumbering corporation in need of mas- ment at their decision—when this legislation sive efficiency reform and change. It has and some of the other policies of this govern- already been through that process. Telstra is ment were before the Senate they could be at the leading edge in telecommunications in voted down by the Australian Labor Party and the world; that is, in its delivery, research and the other parties. Let me quickly turn to development, and investment in telecommuni- Telstra itself, which as I have said is the cations. All of this happens when it is 100 per people’s greatest corporate asset. cent publicly owned. Senator Newman—And Qantas. I accept that not all publicly owned com- Senator FORSHAW—I am happy to deal panies, either in the past or today, need with Qantas later, but we are dealing with necessarily remain in government ownership. Telstra at the moment. The previous Labor government recognised that in respect of the Commonwealth Bank Senator Tierney referred to the fact that job and Qantas because the nature of the industry reductions have occurred, and that is conced- had changed so much. Qantas had about a 50 ed. But what the Labor Party did was cor- per cent share of the market and the poratise Telstra and make it competitive. We Commonwealth Bank had around a 20 per have seen dramatic improvements in their cent share of the market. There was no point, position in recent years. The asset value of notwithstanding the historical commitment of Telstra alone is in the vicinity of $24 billion the Labor Party to that position. I for one and probably greater. The last recorded regret it in many ways but I recognise the figures from 1994-95 show an annual revenue reality that the move had to be made. in the vicinity of $14 billion, a pre-tax profit of $2.4 billion and an after tax profit of $1.75 That is not to say that, when you look at a billion. In 1994-95 Telstra paid a dividend to corporation like Telstra that is successful, the government of some $944 million for the viable, efficient and at the world’s leading year. In total, Telstra was making payments edge in terms of service delivery, you auto- to governments of around $2.7 billion. matically have to privatise it because you have privatised some other government Indeed, that performance has improved in institutions. That is the sort of nonsense, more recent times. In the six months up to the follow-the-leader argument that we get from end of 1995, the dividend paid to the govern- the government when it suits them. The sort ment was in the vicinity of $686 million, an of argument we get from the government is increase of some 66 per cent on the previous that, because they happen to be privatising recorded figure for the relevant period. Rev- Telecom in Albania or because Fidel Castro enue has grown by around nine per cent. is going to privatise his Telecom in Cuba, Telstra has a return to equity rate of around Australia should do the same. That is, we 20.2 per cent. That is a very healthy figure. should sit back and say to the Australian But what do we hear from the government? people, ‘We’re going to sell off Telstra. Why? We hear this line that Telstra is some sort of Because Albania is doing it and because Cuba crippled corporation that is about to fall over. is doing it.’ The day we have to follow the Nothing could be further from the truth. lead of Albania and Cuba is the day we We would accept that, unlike the perform- should give this business away. One could ance of some previous government-run corpo- argue with a far greater degree of logic—it is rations or institutions, Telstra is a fantastic a minor point but it shows the stupidity of the success. Its debt ratio has reduced to some 28 arguments that you get from Senator Alston, per cent and it has seen a substantial boost in the minister—that if that is what Albania and its capital expenditure to around 45 per cent. Cuba are doing, then it is a damn good reason 4384 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 why we should be heading in the opposite munications and the various services in that direction and retaining our Telstra in full industry. public ownership. Let us look at the level of cross-subsidisation that occurs to ensure that people in rural As I said, Telstra is the great shining and regional Australia are able to avail them- example of how a publicly owned corporation selves of these services. I know that some of can succeed: how it can be the world’s best these figures have been referred to in previous performer; how it can demonstrate world best speeches, but I will just run through a few of practice in the whole range of its operations; them. In a town like Bordertown in South and, at the same time, how it can make such Australia, the cross-subsidisation level is of a great economic and social contribution to the order of $1,480 and in Naracoorte the Australia’s welfare. Let me turn to some of level is $1,650. If you happen to live on those contributions to the welfare of the Kangaroo Island, the cross-subsidisation is Australian people that will be affected if this valued at some $2,360. If you live on Flinders bill happened to, unfortunately, pass. Island off the coast of Tasmania, $4,930 is the We know that Telstra provides substantial current value of the cross-subsidisation that benefits to rural and regional Australia. occurs in order to ensure that these services Senator Panizza should recognise this more are delivered. If you live on King Island it is than most, given the state from which he $2,220. Cross-subsidisation levels in New comes. It is trite but it needs to be said: South Wales include $880 in Bathurst and Australia is a huge continent with a very $1,500 in Deniliquin. In Rockhampton, small population. It is a continent that is Queensland, it is $1,020; in Albany—back to larger than the size of most European count- Western Australia, Senator Panizza’s home ries put together but with a population of only state—it is $1,780; and in Ceduna, South some 18 million people, compared with the Australia, it is some $6,800. hundreds of millions of people living in These massive subsidies are available to Europe. Equally, the same comparison can be ensure that people in outlying areas can have made with the United States. access to affordable telecommunications. What will be the inevitable result if you Australia is a sparsely populated continent, privatise Telstra? You will place at risk those as we know. Nevertheless, out of our total levels of subsidies. population of 18 million, some 6.2 million Senator Panizza—It’s in the bill. people live outside the major urban areas of the country; that is, around 37.5 per cent of Senator FORSHAW—Senator Panizza Australians live outside major urban areas. says that they have some obligations in the We have geographic difficulties in terms of bill with respect to community services and delivering basic telecommunications services, subsidisation. You know that in a couple of such as telephones, to all Australians— years time they will be mere words on a piece without even considering the more sophisti- of paper. Eventually, the pressure will be on cated services. But, because we have always to cut costs in order to maximise profits for believed that Australia is a fair and equitable the shareholders whether they be Australian society and that all Australians should have owned companies or foreign owned com- access to these services, we have ensured, panies. In many cases, one would assume they through the combination of full public owner- would be foreign owned companies because ship and the community service obligations, of the massive size of the privatisation. The that all Australians can have access to those pressure will be on for the removal of those services at an affordable price. Just like with subsidies. Those subsidies will go by the the ABC, another fully owned public corpora- board. Inevitably, there will be higher prices tion, it is important to retain Telstra in full for telephone calls. public ownership to ensure that those people Those opposite give overseas examples. I will continue to have equitable treatment have already referred to your reliance on when it comes to the delivery of telecom- Albania and Cuba as examples. You only Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4385 have to look at the United Kingdom and the senator to speak in this important debate on United States and see what has happened the Telstra (Dilution of Public Ownership) there. Try making a phone call in those Bill. At the outset, I should state that we will countries that are supposed to be at the be opposing the partial sale of Telstra. Sena- leading edge of telecommunications and you tor Kernot led the opposition to this sale will see some of the difficulties you face. throughout the recent election campaign. No Those opposite have the hide to say that our Australian will be unaware of my party’s service does not measure up. opposition to this matter. Later Senator Lees Anybody who has been on a parliamentary chaired the Senate inquiry into the issue—the delegation in the last couple of years knows majority report of which clearly opposes the that one of the great things you can do when sale. Both Senator Kernot and Senator Lees overseas is tap into Telstra’s Australia direct will be contributors in this debate and will or world direct services. The service is there once again be making the case against the because Telstra is out there promoting a part sale of Telstra. successful Australian corporation. It is out The Telstra (Dilution of Public Ownership) there investing in Asia and other expanding Bill does not solely deal with the part sale, markets. It is showing the world what we can despite its title. To quote Senator Lees in provide in terms of the development of today’s press: infrastructure and the delivery of telecom- Senator Alston has crudely welded together two munications services. All we hear from those separate ideas within the Telstra Bill to try and opposite is this constant undermining of its force non-Government Senators to support the part performance and its success. If you ever did sale of Telstra. try to sell it you would probably get a far less We will be seeking to break that weld. Earlier price than it is worth. today Senator Lees gave notice of our inten- In my remaining time I want to touch on tion to move for the division of this bill into the outrageous bribe that the coalition put to its two constituent parts—one dealing with the people at the last election—that is, if we the part sale and one dealing with improved can sell Telstra we can improve the environ- customer services. Regardless of whether we ment. What an absolutely outrageous and will be debating one bill or two tomorrow, I disgraceful policy to put to the Australian will be moving a series of amendments to people. A number of years back the Austral- enhance consumer protection if we reach the ian Labor Party took steps to protect the committee stage of the debate. Australian environment in Tasmania’s forests, The government has attempted to bribe the in North Queensland, in the Great Barrier Australian people by promising a world class Reef and other areas. We took those steps consumer framework if one-third of Telstra is because we believed the environment was a sold. We say that this is simply a way of mainstream issue and needed to be protected. holding the populace to ransom. The Austral- For the Liberal and National parties to go ian Democrats will ensure that Australians are to the people and say that the only way that given a world case consumer framework this government will look towards protecting irrespective of who owns Telstra. the environment, improving the environment We know that task will be made more and dealing with some of those issues is if we difficult in a privatised environment. Although can sell the one great corporate asset that this the government has promised to retain country has, then that is a total abrogation of Telstra’s universal service obligation, we political integrity and honesty. Frankly, the know that it will be quite a task to ensure that people who cast their votes on the last occa- it is retained, in the long run, on a privatised sion want Telstra to remain in public owner- carrier operating in a competitive environ- ship and I am confident that the Senate will ment. equally decide that. (Time expired) The claim repeated ad nauseam by this Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (12.27 government that public enterprises are more p.m.)—I rise today as the first Democrat inefficient than private enterprises usually 4386 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 overlooks one simple fact. Government It is equally legitimate for the community enterprises are often charged with social to expect the government to pursue social objectives providing a measure of equity. objectives in the provision of telecommunica- These are, we think, just as important as tion services. This inherent tension cannot be profit making but are portrayed so often as easily dismissed or willed away and will only sources of economic inefficiency and loss be exacerbated by privatisation. A privatised making. Telstra would be governed by a board of While such objectives may impede the aim directors acting not in the national interest, or of profit making, their importance for further- in the interests of rural and remote communi- ing national goals or for promoting the na- ties, but in the interest of the company. tional interest should not be underestimated. We should not be fooled into believing that I acknowledge that the provision of the what is best for the company will coincide universal service obligation is not directly with what is best for the nation. Let us not related to the privatisation. Provision of the forget that it will end up being owned by a universal service obligation can be continued select group of domestic elite and foreign under direction of legislation, irrespective of shareholders. This company would be one of whether or not Telstra is publicly or privately Australia’s largest and would wield tremen- owned. What I am concerned about is that dous economic and political clout, and Aus- privatisation will inevitably place the ongoing tralian governments have not exactly proved provision of the USO under tremendous themselves resistant to corporate lobbying pressure along with other regulations, such as from that big end of town. It is not hard to those on pricing, which are presently imposed see a government—particularly one deter- on Telstra. mined to portray itself as friendly to busi- Furthermore, there is presently much ness—caving in to lobbying by a powerful, debate about the optimal means for delivering private Telstra. the universal service obligation. A number of What this adds up to is that, if we go down industry commentators have called for the the privatisation track, we run the high risk of removal of cross-subsidies as the means of ultimately losing our ability to set, maintain financing community service obligations. and deliver community service obligations in Instead, they advocate funding them out of the national interest. It is not merely the budget revenue—in other words, a welfare existing universal service obligation which approach. The danger with this is that, as needs to be safeguarded. The universal service soon as you transfer payment for the USO to obligation is out of date. Reaffirming the the budget, it will make it far more vulnerable existing USO, as the government has prom- for elimination or reduction than if it is paid ised, will not provide a world class consumer for directly by carriers. As soon as govern- framework; nor will it ensure that they have ments start looking for somewhere to save a access to vital communication services, which few extra dollars, you can be sure the USO are essential for actively participating in will come up for review. today’s society. It needs to be upgraded if we I have no doubt that private owners of a are to avoid creating a new apartheid—an commercially focused company whose sole apartheid of the information rich and the objective is to maximise profits would whole- information poor. I will be looking for ways heartedly agree that this is a good thing. The to upgrade the universal service obligation to fact is it is quite legitimate for private share- ensure a fair, equitable and, most importantly, holders to expect management and the board affordable outcome for all Australians, regard- to seek to maximise profits and to lobby the less of where they live. government to remove any regulatory impedi- The bill also promises a customer service ments to this aim. The government is kidding guarantee to establish mandatory service itself if it thinks a privatised Telstra is not levels in a number of areas. This is a fairly going to be working very hard to get rid of obvious admission that privatisation, of itself, cross subsidisation and the USO. is not going to deliver the right sorts of Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4387 outcomes and that some level of regulation is of ownership. We will be look to other parties necessary to ensure improved customer to support us in this. Any reluctance to take outcomes. But these sorts of guarantees and that step will show these proposed guarantees service obligations are not dependent on for what they really are—a bribe through ownership. The Democrats are keen to see the which to garner public support for an unpopu- government implement a mandatory set of lar privatisation. appropriate customer service guarantees, irrespective of who owns Telstra. Senator MURPHY (Tasmania) (12.37 p.m.)—I oppose the sale of Telstra, and for The Senate Telstra inquiry revealed that very good reason. This has been done over major consumer groups in Australia have many times and the government has always concerns with the customer service guarantee. tried to convince not only the senators in here They say, and with good reason, that they but the public generally that its partial sale of have not been adequately consulted in their Telstra will have no effect. The government development. The Australian Consumers says that it will put in place mechanisms to Association, the Consumers Telecommunica- protect the consumers and users of telecom- tions Network, the Communications Law munications in this country, but the reality Centre and the Telecommunications Industry will be something different. Ombudsman all highlighted ways in which the guarantee could be improved. You only have to look back in history to The government also promised to address the sale of other public assets to realise that issues of widespread community concern such at the end of the day the government will as aerial cabling and the siting of mobile have no capacity or any legal right to deny phone towers. Consumers have voiced their the new private shareholders in Telstra their concern about the cost implications of un- opportunity to maximise their investments. necessary infrastructure duplication. Residents Sooner or later the argument will come up have complained and indeed have taken to the about their rights. There will be arguments streets in protest over the health implications from the government, whoever the govern- of telephone towers and the visual impacts of ment may be at that time, that the universal aerial cabling. But, as yet, as we know, the service obligations and requirements on government has done nothing. Telstra to install ongoing services and provide The Democrats asked for the Senate Telstra new services as part of a cross-subsidised or inquiry to consider these matters and it was part subsidised process should come to an flooded with submissions. All opposed aerial end. cabling and the degradation of the environ- One has to question the coalition government. The government has dismissed these ment’s stand on providing for rural and concerns as being irrelevant. From a govern- regional Australia the maintenance and im- ment that claims they want to privatise Telstra provement of services when it then turns to benefit consumers, we think this is the around and proceeds down the track of priva- height of hypocrisy. It does not require much tising one of the most fundamentally import- wisdom to see that appropriate environment ant service providers in the country. Clearly, and planning regulations are liable to be the people do not want this to happen. They traded off by the government in pursuit of a have demonstrated that through various polls higher sale price. These concerns need to be that have been conducted. Also, they do not addressed immediately—not some day long want any funding for environment policies away in the future—and I will do all in my attached to the sale of Telstra. The govern- power to see that they are addressed. ment over a very short space of time has been In summary, the Australian Democrats will dealing the funding cards off the bottom of be voting against the sale. The crunch will the deck as far as the environment is con- come if the government is called upon to cerned, taking more and more of the funding provide consumers with a world class con- dollars away very quietly and secretly in an sumer framework in the absence of a change effort to place greater emphasis on, and put 4388 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 more pressure on conservation groups to Senator Panizza—What? The only one that support, the partial sale. had that was Keating. Keating was the only one who had that policy. The conservation groups must be really smarting over the way this government has Senator MURPHY—That is a fact, Senator dealt with environmental matters in the six Panizza; there is no doubt about that. You months or so that it has been in office. We only have to read back through some of your have plenty of examples. The most recent policy documents to clearly understand what was yesterday with the regulations for the your position was. I can recall one or two export woodchip licences. Clearly, all conser- letters that I have seen from when you people vation groups and a great number of other were in opposition from shadow ministers people concerned about the environment were with regard to what was proposed for Telstra. duped by the coalition prior to the election. That is of great concern to the public of They voted in the belief that they would see Australia and there has been concern with the maintenance of at least existing funding regard to the sale of other assets. You people limits for the environment and that, if there in opposition say, ‘Well, you sold the were to be any additional funding from the Commonwealth Bank and you sold Qantas.’ sale of a public asset, it would have been But the circumstances were totally different. additional. But that is not the case. We introduced competition. In terms of the Commonwealth Bank, we have a Reserve The other aspect you have to consider—I Bank of Australia. We have much greater know it has been said many times before—is competition following deregulation of the why you would sell a public asset like Telstra financial system. It would have been unfair to that has such a great capacity to provide the Commonwealth Bank for it not to have funds for the government. It had record been sold. So from that point of view, the earnings in its last financial year and has paid circumstances are totally different. huge dividends to the government. And not Australian Airlines and Qantas were merged only that. With regard to the provision of to create greater competition. We all know services throughout the country, and I refer that air fares have stayed down and that air back to the cross-subsidisation issue, in my travel is increasing. So the circumstances state alone it is in excess of $9 million. Yet there are totally different and the argument we still do not have the level of services that does not hold. What is holding with the we might like to have in Tasmania with Australian people, and why I think at the end regard to mobile phone services and other of the day we will see this bill ultimately services. defeated, is that Australians do not want this to happen. If Telstra is going to be the main player in the game, then it will be important that any Senator Newman—They like buying shares government have the capacity to direct it at in their national companies. some point in time to maintain equity in the provision of services to communities through- Senator MURPHY—Senator, I hope you out Australia. It is fairly evident, even with have a good argument for the people in the current circumstances as they relate to pay Tasmania, and particularly the people in Bass. TV and other services that are being provided Your colleague, the member for Bass, Mr in some areas of the country at the moment, Smith, has no argument because he spends that those companies doing that, even Telstra, most of his time in Sydney. ‘The member for do not have any real plans to go to areas that Sydney’, he ought to be called. The people will be deemed to be not profitable. That is want this bill defeated. a good indicator if, at the end of the day, you sell part of Telstra. We should not forget that The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT the coalition has always had a policy of the (Senator McKiernan)—Order! It being 12.45 complete sale of Telstra. p.m., the debate is interrupted. Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4389

VETERANS’ AFFAIRS LEGISLATION endure. It is a compassionate step which has AMENDMENT BILL (No. 1) 1996 been welcomed by the ex-service community. Having said that, I do not need to prolong the Second Reading debate in the Senate. Debate resumed from 9 September, on Senator NEWMAN (Tasmania—Minister motion by Senator Kemp: for Social Security and Minister Assisting the That this bill be now read a second time. Prime Minister for the Status of Women) Senator BOLKUS (South Australia) (12.45 (12.48 p.m.)—I rise to thank Senator Bolkus p.m.)—As was foreshadowed in the House of for supporting the legislation. Having been a Representatives, the opposition will support former shadow minister for Veterans Affairs, this bill for two good reasons. First of all, the I well understand that, whilst these are in concepts embodied in the legislation were in some way small measures, they will be fact concepts foreshadowed by the former important to veterans and their widows. I am government and, secondly, we still feel that delighted to see these measures passing into the two major concepts in the legislation are legislation and I thank the opposition for its worthy of support. support. Of those two major components of the bill, Question resolved in the affirmative. the first relates to a minor amendment to the Bill read a second time, and passed through Defence Services Homes Act 1918 which will its remaining stages without amendment or ensure that borrowers will have their rights debate. protected when all the states and territories adopt a common consumer code. We are HEALTH INSURANCE AMENDMENT talking here about Westpac Banking taking up BILL 1996 the services of lending in this respect. We Second Reading wanted to ensure that Westpac, in terms of its legal obligations under the Defence Services Debate resumed from 8 May, on motion by Home Act 1918, will comply with the re- Senator Kemp: quirements of the Consumer Credit Code. We That this bill be now read a second time. support this because of the enhanced rights Senator NEAL (New South Wales) (12.50 that it gives to those who are in a contractual p.m.)—It is with great pleasure that I rise to arrangement with Westpac. support the Health Insurance Amendment Bill The second component relates to an amend- 1996. The previous Labor government took ment to the Veterans’ Entitlement Act 1986. steps to combat the decline in participation in This amendment was once again foreshad- childhood immunisation and vaccination. An owed whilst we were in government. It is an initiative of Labor was the establishment of an amendment which ensures that, when a Australian childhood immunisation register. veteran dies of a previously established war Levels of childhood immunisation have caused disability, the veteran’s dependant will been declining for some years. The proportion be automatically eligible for a pension with- of immunised children decreased from 54.1 out having to re-establish the relationship per cent in 1989-90 to 52.1 per cent in 1990- between the death and the war service. We 91, and this has been the continuing trend for saw this as an initiative of importance to the some years. That drop occurred in just one veteran community and we foreshadowed it year. There is some debate about what the before the election. We now support this cause of this decline has been, but there is measure which will implement that decision some view in the community that the incon- announced before the election. venience and possible side effects of immuni- In supporting the second component of this sation may no longer outweigh the risk that legislation, we also recognised that the bill is avoided by that immunisation. Also, there will do away with unnecessary uncertainty tends to be a continuing view in the com- and frustration that the dependants of veterans munity that the less medical intervention there who die of war caused disabilities often is the better it is for individuals. 4390 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

The fact is that this trend has been a major dence to correlate immunisation with deaths— problem for the community. As a result, the in Australia in particular—is incredibly incidence of childhood diseases such as scanty. There is very little evidence, if any at measles, whooping cough and rubella have all, to indicate that there is a correlation been on the increase. The sad thing is that, between the two. Certainly, there is a tempo- even though these diseases are generally a ral relationship, but beyond that it has been minor inconvenience and are generally impossible to prove a correlation. thought of as such in the community, over the ten-year period between 1983 and 1993 41 There is no question at all in my mind, and deaths occurred as a result of measles, a fact in the mind of every sensible person, that we that I do not think many people would ap- should encourage a 100 per cent immunisa- preciate. tion rate in our children. This legislation will encourage that. It has been a bipartisan As a result of this problem, the previous approach and I am delighted that my col- Labor government put in place a twofold leagues in the chamber have supported this strategy in order to combat it. The first was issue. an education campaign to ensure that parents were aware of the necessity to vaccinate and Question resolved in the affirmative. the second was the introduction of the register Bill read a second time, and passed through that this legislation is now putting into place. its remaining stages without amendment or Originally the 18-month trial was put in place debate. by regulation but in light of the success of this program, it is now seen as appropriate to Sitting suspended from 12.55 to 2 p.m. put it into primary legislation and I am completely in accord with that view. QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE It is worth noting that in the six months between 1 January 1996 and 30 June 1996 Minister for Finance there were over one million notifications of Senator SHERRY—My question is direct- vaccines that had been administered recorded ed to the Minister representing the Minister on the register and there are over 11,000 for Finance. Yesterday, in reference to doctors and medical practices and 256 coun- Tunboa Pty Ltd, did the Minister for Finance cils now providing data. I fully endorse this say that he had ‘transferred my interest in that amendment and urge the Senate to support it. company to my former partner in 1986’? Why Senator WOODS (New South Wales— then did Mr Fahey on nine occasions declare Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for in his declaration of pecuniary interests to the Health and Family Services) (12.53 p.m.)—It New South Wales parliament that he was a is good to see that there is a great deal of shareholder in this company? Is it true that at bipartisan support on this issue. It is a vital a doorstop earlier today Mr Fahey blamed a issue. There is no doubt that, as Senator Neal personal staff member for continuing to lodge has pointed out, there has been an unneces- Tunboa Pty Ltd as a pecuniary interest? Did sary increase in the incidence of, particularly, Mr Fahey sign these declaration forms, or has rubella, measles and whooping cough. As she he requested the police to investigate the points out, there have been deaths. As she did possible forgery of his signature on these not mention, but I am sure implied, there have forms? also been a number of children suffering long- Senator KEMP—Senator Sherry, I think term brain damage from those particular there was a touch of drama at the end of your diseases, in particular from measles—far more question which I do not think was merited. I than have ever been accounted for as caused have a brief here on the particular issue raised by the immunisation process itself. by Senator Sherry. I am advised that Mr There is a bit of folklore around the com- Fahey divested his interest in Tunboa in 1986, munity at present which says that immunisa- a decade ago, and well before he entered the tion is harmful. The facts are that the evi- federal parliament. Tunboa was a service Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4391 company which was, and is, worth next to My colleague Senator Short put a question nothing. on notice to the previous minister for the arts, Mr Lee, to ascertain to what extent the trade Mr Fahey’s business partner failed to union movement had been used as a vehicle amend the Australian Securities Commission for arts funding. The question was put on entry; hence, the entry incorrectly states that notice on 25 September last year. Not only Mr Fahey has an interest in the company. Mr did Senator Short not get an answer within Fahey’s business partner has written to Mr the required 30 days; he actually did not get Fahey confirming this. He also confirms that an answer at all before the last election. Mr Fahey has received no benefit from Tunboa since 1986. You ask yourself, ‘Why did Mr Lee wait for five months?’ Or, in fact, ‘Why would he Mr Fahey inadvertently forgot to remove have waited forever?’ The answer is that Mr the entry from the New South Wales Lee simply was not game to tell the public parliament’s registry of interests. Mr Fahey the disgraceful facts of the matter, because the regrets that he overlooked removing the entry facts are that, between 1994-95 and 1995-96, from the New South Wales registry of inter- nearly $800,000 in arts funding was supplied ests. Everything Mr Fahey said in his letter to to the ALP’s main funding source—the trade the PM yesterday stands today. That is the union movement. entirety of the matter. Senator Patterson—How much? Senator SHERRY—Madam President, I Senator ALSTON—It was $772,000, in ask a supplementary question. Senator Kemp, fact. You can understand why Mr Lee was given your detailed knowledge of Mr Fahey very reluctant to disclose this sort of informa- and Tunboa, is it a fact that only yesterday tion. He knew that the ALP would be judged Mr Fahey resigned as a director of Tunboa guilty by the court of public opinion. In other Pty Ltd? words, the facts could not stand the light of Senator KEMP—I have nothing to add to day. This is simply another arts rort. the answer I have given. I can give examples of where these funds were spent. There was $28,700 given to the Trade Unions: Arts Funding Queensland branch of the ACTU for a poster Senator CALVERT—My question is competition and exhibition. The Tasmanian directed to the Minister for Communications TLC got nearly $200,000—$199,925, in and the Arts. What is the government’s fact—for a variety of projects, ranging from position regarding the provision of funding a celebration of pulping in Burnie to a photo- for arts related activities to trade union bod- graphic exhibition connecting time through ies? How does this compare to the position of sight. As part of the overall total, the Tasman- the previous Labor administration? ian TLC got two grants of $48,000 each to Senator ALSTON—I thank Senator Calvert employ a community cultural development for that very important question. No doubt organiser. The ACT Trades and Labour everyone in the community would accept that Council—and no doubt Senator Lundy was there is a responsibility for governments to very grateful for this—also did exceptionally provide funding to various arts bodies in well. It got grants totalling $122,420 during order to ensure that people have every oppor- the same period for two exhibitions. tunity to give expression to their creative This is typical of a party that does not endeavours. There are a number of situations believe in free creative endeavour. It believes in which the marketplace does not fulfil the in manipulating artists by requiring them to need, and therefore governments have a role. express their cultural aspirations through the But what is of great concern is when a party prism of the ALP’s ideology. What it was as ideological as the Labor Party thinks a doing was no doubt encouraging those who legitimate vehicle for funding arts is the trade wanted to perpetuate myths about heroic union movement. worker struggles, anti-capitalist propaganda 4392 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 and all the sorts of slogans that can pass for Opposition senators interjecting— art if you are in the trade union movement. The PRESIDENT—Order! We regard this as totally unacceptable. Our Senator KEMP—Thank you Madam view is that the arts ought to flourish in an President. As I said, this is the second ques- environment where government is not pulling tion we have had on this particular issue, and the strings and simply saying, ‘If you toe the I can repeat— line, we’ll give you money.’ We all know why the Labor Party does it. They do it so Senator Faulkner—That is the second time that the trade union movement can pay them you have said it. back in spades at election time. Senator KEMP—If Senator Conroy was Our approach is quite different to that. We not listening, and if Senator Faulkner was not are not Sydneycentric like Mr Keating. We listening, I am happy to repeat what I said did not take the view that it was okay to earlier on. Mr Fahey divested his interest in spend $150 million if you did not like the Tunboa in 1986, a decade ago, and well view of the Cahill Expressway. We would before he entered the federal parliament. That rather put that money into regional arts is the advice I have received in a brief. funding. Tunboa was a service company which was, I call on the ALP to dissociate itself from and is, worth next to nothing. its failed leader. The captain might be off the As I also mentioned, Senator Conroy—you team but the rest of the side is well and truly might care to listen the first time round so I still out there. If it has not dissociated itself do not have to repeat it all the time—his from his approach, we can assume that Labor business partner failed to amend the Austral- still thinks that it is legitimate to use those ian Securities Commission entry, hence the sorts of rorts, to use that sort of government entry incorrectly states that Mr Fahey has an control of the arts and any other area it can interest in the company. Mr Fahey’s business get its hands on. partner has written to Mr Fahey confirming It simply is not good enough. Once again, that— it is a fundamental conflict of interest. The Senator Robert Ray—Why did he forward sooner you recognise it, the better chance you his change of address? have of getting back into the political game. Senator KEMP—This is very important, Minister for Finance Senator Ray, so you might care to listen to this. Rather than shouting out all the time, Senator CONROY—My question is direct- you might care to listen to this. He confirms ed to Senator Kemp as the Minister represent- that Mr Fahey has received no benefit from ing the Minister for Finance. Given the fact Tunboa since 1986. that Mr Fahey has said that he had nothing to do with Tunboa Pty Ltd in the last 10 years, Senator Cook—When are you going to why is it that the annual return of that com- answer the question? pany shows him as secretary of that company Senator KEMP—You obviously were not from 21 November 1980 until yesterday? Did tuned in either, Senator Cook, so I can say to Mr Fahey, on any occasion in the last 10 you that Mr Fahey inadvertently forgot to years, sign the annual return of that company remove his interests from the New South or the directors’ report contained within the Wales parliament’s register of interests. statutory financial statements of that company which are required, in his capacity as director, Opposition senators interjecting— to be lodged with the Australian Securities The PRESIDENT—Order! There are far Commission after the end of each financial too many interjections on my left. It is totally year? disorderly to behave in that fashion. Senator KEMP—This is the second ques- Senator KEMP—Thank you, Madam tion we have had on this particular issue. I do President. Might I also comment that if we not know whether Senator Conroy— had less shouting out and more listening on Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4393 the other side we would not have the answers The Attorney-General provided the Com- to questions needing to be repeated. monwealth government’s submission to the The PRESIDENT—Senator Kemp, apply inquiry last week. In that submission, the yourself to the question, please. Commonwealth argues that it is inappropriate to attempt to provide cash compensation for Senator KEMP—As always, Madam past actions which are unacceptable by President. Mr Fahey inadvertently forgot to today’s standards. The government’s approach remove the entry from the New South Wales is to respond to current needs by designing parliament’s register of interests. As I said, and delivering programs aimed at particular Mr Fahey regrets that he overlooked removing areas of disadvantage. The government will the entry from that registry. There you are—I consider the recommendations of the inquiry have answered the question, I answered the when they are presented. question earlier and I have nothing more to add. What I am seriously concerned about, however, is the language of hate that has Senator CONROY—A supplementary crept into the opposition’s vocabulary in the question: why then was the return changed sensitive area of race relations in this nation. five times in the last nine years, including his I am aware of the comments by Mr Melham address and details? this morning on ABC radio. In those, he Senator KEMP—Senator Conroy, seeing sought to draw parallels between the Jewish you do seem to have a particular interest in Holocaust and the removal of Aboriginal this matter, and to save you from wasting children. In August, we had the sorry spec- some more time in the Senate, I will bring tacle of the opposition leader addressing a your question to the attention of Mr Fahey union sponsored demonstration outside this and see whether he feels that he has anything place with the words: that he wishes to add. This government hates workers. It hates students. It hates Aboriginal people. It hates women who Aboriginal Children: Separation from want to work. Parents Senator IAN MACDONALD—My ques- Once again, this is the language of hate from tion is directed to the Minister for Aboriginal those opposite. Yesterday we had that dis- and Torres Strait Islander Affairs. Minister, I graceful behaviour from Senator Bolkus wonder if by any chance you listened to AM during question time—once again the lan- this morning and heard the opposition spokes- guage of hate from those opposite. I note that man on Aboriginal and islander affairs, Mr after sitting down yesterday— Daryl Melham, make that quite disgusting and Senator Faulkner—You hate John most inappropriate parallel between the Howard’s guidelines; that’s what you hate. Jewish Holocaust and the removal of Aborigi- nal children? Minister, I wonder if you could The PRESIDENT—Senator Faulkner set the record straight and explain the please desist from interjecting and calling out government’s position in relation to the from across the chamber. Senator Herron, Human Rights and Equal Opportunity have you finished your answer? Commission’s inquiry into Aboriginal and Senator HERRON—No, I have not, Torres Strait Islander children’s separation? Madam President. I note that after sitting Senator HERRON—Thank you, Senator there during question time and denying that Macdonald. It is a very important question, he used the words ‘Why do you hate Madam President, in relation to the blackfellas’, which I heard distinctly, he government’s response to the Human Rights quietly returned to the chamber at 5.58 last and Equal Opportunity Commission. There is night, almost four hours after his outburst and no doubt that the past practices of removing denial, to finally concede that he did use Aboriginal children from their families were those words and to apologise, and then only appalling. because it was recorded in Hansard. 4394 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

This language of hate coming from those ‘Wright Family’ opposite is a disgrace. It is only fuelling the Senator REYNOLDS—My question is current debate. It amounts to cheap and—I directed to Senator Newman as Minister for might add—offensive political point scoring Social Security. Minister, do you recall your at the expense of Aboriginal people, those office was reported by the Daily Telegraph on who have made this country their home and 25 September as saying that Senator those who were born here. Vanstone’s phantom family, the Wrights, is Senator Bolkus—You have not done one still receiving massive welfare payments and constructive thing in power. You have not that there was nothing the department could done one constructive thing as minister. do to stop the family receiving welfare payments? Were these statements supported by Senator IAN MACDONALD—My supple- advice from your department? If not, don’t mentary question is directed to Senator they make you complicit in Senator Herron. I wonder if Senator Herron heard the Vanstone’s misrepresentation of the facts? Leader of the Opposition in the Senate, Senator NEWMAN—No, I deny absolutely Senator Faulkner, jokingly refer to the remov- that I am in any way complicit with anybody al of Aboriginal children in the same light as on anything, because I am not a crook. Mr Howard’s guidelines on shares? I wonder Senator Carr—No, but she is. if the minister has any comment about the seriousness of the separation of Aboriginal Senator NEWMAN—No, she is not. She children and the way the Leader of the Oppo- is not a crook. sition in the Senate treats it so flippantly? Opposition senators—Oh! Senator HERRON—Thank you, Senator The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator New- Macdonald. It also gives me an opportunity— man, resume your seat. Order! Senator Faulkner—That is the classic all- Senator Faulkner—I said you hate the time gaffe! Prime Minister’s guidelines. The PRESIDENT—Senator Faulkner! The PRESIDENT—Senator Faulkner, I ask Order! you to cease yelling across the chamber. Senator NEWMAN—Madam President, what I was trying to refer to was the allega- Senator HERRON—Thank you, Madam tion implicit in the question—that somehow President. I did hear Senator Faulkner say the actions of Senator Vanstone were crooked. that. I also heard Senator Bolkus again this Senator Vanstone, to my knowledge, has been afternoon compound what he did yesterday in honourable in this whole issue. Having said his comments. Senator Bolkus, we have done that, the means test, which was the basis of an enormous amount for the Aboriginal the questioning at the estimates committee people since we took over government be- hearing, was introduced by the previous cause we are not locked into your paradigm. government, and rightly so. We are progressing on to the future. We have done an enormous amount. We have cleared Nobody can in all conscience endorse up the perception—the special auditor’s report rorting of the social security system or the has demonstrated that and that is going Austudy system at the expense of the battlers through. We are working constructively with so that people who have means are not pro- ATSIC for the first time, which did not occur viding for themselves where they can. That is in the previous government. We are meeting the basis of this issue. Senator Vanstone has on a daily basis with ATSIC and we are supported the attempts to make sure that those progressing to the future. I would hope that who can afford to provide for their own it will get through even to the opposition, children’s education are doing so. dense as they are, that we actually won the I and my department also are concerned election on 2 March and we are marching to that there is the potential, which was not a different tune from the one that they were. addressed by the previous government, for Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4395 some people to be accessing social security indicate to the Senate whether you intend to who should not be entitled to it. We believe change, or are in the process of changing, the that we should be supporting the needy, not conditions on woodchip licences? Can you the greedy. That surely is what we should be assure us that the conditions on last year’s concerned about now. licences will be the same as the conditions on I understood, when I saw an article in the this year’s licences? Sydney Daily Telegraph, that there may have Senator PARER—The only information I been some inaccuracies in the assessment of can give you, Senator, in respect of the what entitlements a family known as the woodchip licences is that laid out in the Wright family might have been receiving. My regulations. In the absence of any change to office contacted Senator Vanstone’s office the those regulations, I assume—but I will check day that appeared and advised that we would this with the minister as I do not have a brief like to look at the matter further, which we on it—there would be no change in the did. At that time, I put out a press release conditions. saying what we believed the situation to be. Senator LEES—I thank the minister. When Senator REYNOLDS—Minister, I certain- you check with the Minister for Primary ly was not suggesting that either you or Industries and Energy, could you in particular Senator Vanstone was crooked, as you sug- ask whether there will be any changes to the gested. I was seeking information. I would logging of rainforests and whether you will be like to ask: was your ‘dob in a dole bludger’ issuing licences for rainforest chips; and hotline used in terms of the information about whether there will be any change to the the Wright family? Did you have any refer- conditions relating to the clearing of land for ence to that hotline? Did you draw your agricultural purposes—in other words, wheth- department’s advice to Senator Vanstone’s er you will issue licences for timber felled attention—at least by providing her with a through clearing land for agriculture. copy of your press release—or to the attention of the Prime Minister’s office? If not, why Senator PARER—As I understand it, the not? conditions relating to the issuing of export licences for woodchips are spelt out exactly Senator NEWMAN—That is a bit of a in the regulations. stupid sort of supplementary, isn’t it? Firstly, there is no such thing as a ‘dob in a bludger’ ‘Wright Family’ hotline. That is a media headline, but it is Senator CROWLEY—My question is nothing I have ever used. It is totally irrel- directed to the Minister for Employment, evant to the issue at hand. The employers Education, Training and Youth Affairs. contact unit is nothing to do with this issue. Minister, are you aware that the Prime That is really what it boils down to. Secondly, Minister’s Guide to key elements of my office was in contact, as I said, with ministerial responsibility requires that, Senator Vanstone’s office over this issue. amongst other things, ministers must be Senator Bob Collins—On the 25th. honest in their public dealings and should not Senator NEWMAN—Do you want the intentionally mislead the parliament or the answer? Later the two departments discussed public; any misconception caused inadvertent- the matter and sorted out the issues. ly should be corrected at the earliest opportunity; and any answer which may be found Logging and Woodchipping to be incorrect should be corrected as soon as Senator LEES—My question is directed to the error is found using the procedures of the the Minister for Resources and Energy repre- house concerned? Is it not true that Senator senting the Minister for Primary Industries Newman sounded the alarm about the ‘Wright and Energy. Minister, you have changed the family’ on 25 September, as Senator Newman parameters for woodchipping, you have just said in her answer? Why then, given the changed the ceilings on licences and you have spectacular coverage of your scam by the changed the regulations. Will you clearly media, did you not immediately set the public 4396 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 record straight? Why did you not set the This was sent off to the Privileges Commit- parliamentary record straight last Tuesday, tee. And what did that committee say? The Wednesday or Thursday, or Monday or Privileges Committee said that Senator Tuesday of this week? Schacht was not at fault because he had not deliberately misled the estimates committee. Senator VANSTONE—I thank Senator They even concluded that he did not really Crowley for that question because it gives me mean to mislead the Senate, as they believed an opportunity to highlight one aspect of the he had, in taking note of the question. They Australian Labor Party which was completely gave him the full benefit of the doubt and rejected by the Australian people at the last said that he was misinformed. They did say, election, and that is an element of hypocrisy. however, that he should have notified the Senator Robert Ray—Answer the ques- estimates committee—and he did not. He tion. actually said, ‘We’ll go through all of this Senator VANSTONE—I am answering the again when the estimates committee next sits.’ question. This example closely parallels an What have I done? I have been notified and experience of Senator Schacht—one of your I make no secret of it. Senator Newman’s ministers, Senator Crowley—who was inad- office contacted my office and said, ‘Look, vertently advised by his department and gave we think something is wrong here’, and ever an incorrect answer to an estimates commit- since then our offices have been sharing tee. information trying to get to the bottom of the problem. What did Senator Schacht do? Do you think that when he first found this out he immedi- Senator Bob Collins—Rubbish! ately set in train the process to advise either Senator VANSTONE—It is true. the committee or the parliament of the error? Opposition senators interjecting— Do you think he did that? No, he did not. How did the parliament find out about this Senator VANSTONE—I cannot get error? Because somebody asked Senator through this, Madam President, if you do not McMullan a question and Senator Schacht invite those who asked the question to let me had to slink in on taking note of the answer answer it. and admit that he had made a mistake before The PRESIDENT—Stop the clock. Order! the estimates committee. Proceed, Senator Vanstone. Opposition senators interjecting— Senator VANSTONE—In relation to that matter, Senator Crowley, I did not deliberately Senator VANSTONE—Don’t feign not mislead the estimates committee. I ask you to knowing. This was referred to the Privileges accept that. Although you so ungenerously Committee and you would remember it well. last night—when I had written to the commit- So let’s not pretend you don’t know about tee and apologised and, in response to a this. question, indicated that if an apology was The PRESIDENT—Order! There are too required in this chamber I would give it— many interjections. nonetheless went on PM and said that I still rejected that there had been some misleading. Senator Schacht—The Privileges Commit- That is not the case. tee gave a very good report. We will put you there and see how you go. I set about getting the facts. It was not an easy task getting all the facts. I will be mak- Senator VANSTONE—Don’t get oversen- ing a statement after question time when I sitive. Of course, reluctantly at the end of his will give you a chronology of events and such speech in taking note of the answer, Senator documents as I can so that you can make your Schacht said, ‘Yes, this thing was a tax and own assessment. But before you point the not a charge. And, yes, legislation will have finger, why don’t you look at what your to be introduced’—which was the opposite of minister did and judge me by the standards what he told the committee. you judged him by? Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4397

Senator CROWLEY—Very little of that of a family that was caught by your actual answer, Madam President, went to the ques- means test. So I would say to you that I have tion asked, so, in supplementary I ask: done everything I could. The error was minister, notwithstanding all that you said pointed out. We tried to get to the bottom of then, would you have corrected the record in what the errors were. Once I was satisfied of this place if Senator Carr had not asked his that, I notified the relevant committee. (Time question yesterday? Is it true, as reported by expired) the Sydney Morning Herald this morning, that, ‘Within two days of Senator Vanstone’s Minerals and Energy Sector claim being made public, her department was Senator SANDY MACDONALD—My referring all media inquiries to the minister’s question is directed to the Minister for Re- office, suggesting knowledge that the claim sources and Energy. There is encouraging evi- was erroneous’? Finally, if you yesterday dence that Australia’s minerals and energy said that you came into this place to give an sector is playing a pivotal role in the acceler- unreserved apology, how does that sit with ating economic growth in the East Asia and you saying at the end of your interview last South Pacific regions. Can the minister night, ‘A day or two here or there, what’s the indicate whether this assessment is solidly big deal’? How does that sit with based and what contribution the minerals and ‘immediately’ correcting the record if it is energy sector will make to Australia’s growth wrong? and prosperity in both the short and long Senator VANSTONE—Senator Crowley, term. as I have indicated to you—and I am not even Senator PARER—I thank Senator Sandy trying to make any secret of this—of course, Macdonald for his question. I think it indi- when this matter received media coverage, cates the seriousness with which we are which, incidentally, was not at my instiga- treating the economic mess bequeathed to us tion— and the Australian people after 13 years of Senator Robert Ray—Oh yes, it was. Labor mismanagement. There can be no doubt Senator VANSTONE—No, it was not. that the minerals and energy sector will con- Senator Robert Ray—Yes, it was. tinue to be one of the main drivers of growth and prosperity for all Australians into the Senator VANSTONE—Well, you provide future. Without the wealth created by the the proof of that. minerals and energy sector, there would be Senator Robert Ray—Who asked the considerably less funds available for the broad questions and who put out the media release? range of state and Commonwealth programs, Senator VANSTONE—Not me; I didn’t including those directed towards environment- put out a media release. Senator Crowley, al protection. what you need to know is that the matter was Mineral and energy resources are our raised on the day that Senator Newman largest single export earner, accounting for 60 indicated. Since then we have been trying to per cent of all commodity exports and 35 per get to the bottom of the matter. It is not cent of all exports of goods and services. appropriate for me, finding that there has been Total earnings from minerals and energy an error, to immediately accept—even if I get exports are expected to rise to a record $37 an answer immediately, which I did not—the billion in 1996-97. In addition to company information. It behoves me to properly check and PAYE tax, the minerals and energy sector that information. contributes about $2.2 billion a year in royal- I actually find that, as late as last night, I ties to the states, as well as, in most instances, have been given more information by the providing their own infrastructure at no cost department. So perhaps I should have waited to the taxpayer. It employs over 400,000 longer to get more information from the people directly and indirectly in the economy department as to the so-called Wright family and contributes six per cent to gross domestic that was put to me as being a good example product. 4398 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

The sector is a major driver of investment, which will mean over $1 billion in export accounting for over 30 per cent of total new revenue to Australia. investment last year. I know from my discus- The government will do all that it can to sions with investors and buyers overseas that facilitate these projects without compromising there is great potential for more investment, the high environmental standards that we more jobs, more income and more growth. expect the industry to meet. The minerals and To achieve these outcomes, however, energy sector will continue to be a major Australia must create a climate of greater export earner for Australia. (Time expired) stability and predictability in areas such as ‘Wright Family’ land access, and improve coordination of environmental and other policies by all levels Senator JACINTA COLLINS—My of government. Continued micro-economic question is directed to the Minister for Em- reform, including the ready availability of ployment, Education, Training and Youth Af- competitively priced energy, is necessary to fairs. Yesterday in question time, when promote greater investment in downstream Senator Carr asked you a question about the value adding projects. These are all priority so-called Wright family, you replied: areas for reform by the Howard coalition . . . what the department had done was taken an government. actual family but had added a couple of kids. . . Which child or children did the department I think it is worth noting that in today’s add to the so-called Wright family? Was it the world investment is very competitive. From six-month-old baby, which provides $8,500 to an investment perspective, there are no inter- the Wright family? Was it the 14-year-old national boundaries. Investment is very child, which provides $3,000 to the Wright similar to electricity: it will always flow to family? Or was it both children, providing the lowest point of resistance. $11,500 of the supposed $15,000 provided to There are currently 25 major minerals the Wright family? Also, Minister, can you processing projects—value adding, I might confirm that your departmental secretary, Mr add—in Australia at advanced stages of Hollway, advised you of the bogus nature of planning and development, involving a poten- the family on 26 September? tial capital expenditure of over $20 billion. If Senator VANSTONE—I thank the senator these value adding projects are to proceed, for the question. It gives me an opportunity they have the potential to generate an addi- to make two points again. Firstly, I remind tional $7 billion a year in export income. you of one of the reasons I think you lot lost office; that is, the hypocritical approach you In addition, there are another 90 mining take to things. I raised this example with you projects at various stages of development. For of where a previous minister, Senator Schacht, example, BHP’s $450 million Cannington was, I believe, misinformed; he provided the base metal project in Queensland is under incorrect information and subsequently failed construction. Newcrest have committed $420 to advise the committee or the Senate until he million to the development of the Acadia Hill was caught out. That is when he decided to gold project in New South Wales. Anaconda come clean. That matter was referred to the have completed a feasibility study on a $900 Privileges Committee; the report is there if million investment in developing the Murrin you would like to read it, Senator. Murrin nickel deposit in Western Australia. Shell have committed over $500 million to I indicated that what Senator Newman told the development of a new coal mine at you was correct. She—or someone from her Moranbah in Queensland. And so the list goes office—contacted the office to indicate she on. A large potential project worth particular thought there was some miscalculation vis-a- mention is the development of the multi- vis the social security amounts appropriated to the so-called Wright family. I have also billion dollar LNG project, in regard to which indicated to the Senate that, following that, a press statement was released today, and my office and hers—and, if I did not add Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4399 before, my department—were busily working back to Canberra with all the correspondence amongst ourselves and between each other, and briefings that had been done in Adelaide department to department, office to office, to on the Thursday and Friday and, I am ad- try to get the correct information. vised, was sent on the Wednesday to Senator I have further indicated that following Tierney. I was further advised on Wednesday question time I will make a statement on this the 16th by the Clerk; I will not try to put matter. I have indicated to you that as late as words in his mouth, but you have seen the last night I received more information from Clerk’s advice that I have basically done what the department, and I believe that I have I could to get the correct information. followed the appropriate course of action. But Despite having done all that, and it was a let me run through it for you, Senator, if you considerable effort to get the right information feel it will help in any particular way. If you on this matter, which I was happy to outlay, want advance notice of what is coming later, I nonetheless advised that further information I will give it to you. was provided to me last night. The Wright family example was used in an Opposition senators interjecting— estimates committee hearing on 23 September. There was significant coverage given to that The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator matter on 25 September and, as I have indi- Vanstone, your time has expired. cated to you, not as a consequence of my Senator JACINTA COLLINS—I ask a seeking to give the matter some particular supplementary question. Minister, even profile. despite your explanation that this was a bogus Senator Schacht—Not from your press family, isn’t it a fact that, because of the secretary? introduction of the Austudy actual means test Senator VANSTONE—Neither me nor my introduced by Labor in the 1995-96 budget, office. On Thursday, 26 September, the the so-called Wright family would not be secretary to the department undertook inqui- eligible for the remaining $3,500—that is, the ries and prepared for me a draft letter and a extra kid that was not added—which was press release. Later on that Thursday I under- supposedly paid in Austudy for this family’s stand that the Stop Press Hansard was avail- 16-year-old child? able on the computers in the offices and the Senator VANSTONE—Thank you very normal Hansard was available on the Friday much for that question. Can I just respond to for checking. On Friday, 27 September, the an interjection of Senator Ray’s, which was, secretary’s office faxed a minute with an ‘Well, you will have to sack 3,000 public amended letter and a press release to the servants.’ Canberra office. Senator Robert Ray—I said, ‘Why did On Monday and Tuesday of the following you?’ week, the office was still checking some of these issues and raised the matter with the Senator VANSTONE—Why didn’t I? Clerk—it may have been one of the assistant Because 3,000 public servants have not made clerks; I am not sure, it was not me who did a mistake. it—as to whether, if this letter was sent, it Senator Robert Ray—That is right; but would appropriately discharge the duties. It you sacked them all. was suggested that an amendment be made to the letter to Senator Tierney to ensure that it The PRESIDENT—Order! was circulated to all members. That amend- Senator VANSTONE—I am actually ment was made to the letter. The letter was answering a question from another senator, then E-mailed to my ministerial office and E- through you, Madam President. The depart- mailed to Adelaide where I was on Thursday ment freely admits it made a mistake. The and Friday of that week attending to corres- Prime Minister has read to the House of pondence and departmental briefs. The letter Representatives the first paragraph of a letter was signed by me on Friday the 4th, came sent today by Mr Hollway to the secretary of 4400 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 the estimates committee. He read the first come into the department but, when I last sentence, which says: asked, the ball was still in their court. I am writing to you direct on the matter of the Senator ALLISON—Madam President, I ‘Wright family’ because the fault clearly lies with ask a supplementary question. I thank the the Department. minister for his answer. I ask: will this docu- I have done everything subsequent to that that ment be made public, if and when it arrives? I believe I can to get the right information. Is the minister aware that a case for excision Senator Ray, if you think every time a public of a Ramsar site has only ever been agreed to servant makes a mistake, they should be once before in the world, and this was in sacked, good luck to you, but it is not my Belgium where there were no other alterna- view. tives? Senator Robert Ray—Madam President, Senator HILL—It is my understanding that I raise a point of order. I ask the minister to it has only rarely been approved, but I table the letter from Mr Hollway that the thought it was more than once. The tests are minister has quoted from. set out—the urgent national interest, as you say. It seems to me from my visits to Mel- Senator VANSTONE—Madam President, bourne and certainly from the estimates that is not a point of order. Senator Ray, I committee the other night that it is the view have indicated several times to people on of the Labor opposition that it is important to your side that, following question time, I will have this chemical storage facility moved out make a brief statement and I will table all of of the suburbs of Melbourne. The question is: this for you, okay—the whole box and dice. where should it be relocated? Chemical Storage Complex at Point Senator Allison will be aware of what has Lillias occurred over the last few years in that Senator ALLISON—My question is regard. It was going to go to Point Wilson but directed to the Minister for the Environment then that was utilised for an armaments depot. and it concerns the proposed siting of a Then it was suggested that it should be at chemical storage complex at Point Lillias, an Point Lillias, and that has gone through a important Ramsar site in Victoria. Has the Victorian government assessment process to Victorian state government yet forwarded to which my department contributed. The contri- the federal government its case for urgent na- bution of my department and their concerns tional interest and compensatory habitat for are on the public record, and those concerns the excision of the Point Lillias Peninsula were made public with my agreement. I do from the Port Phillip (western shoreline) not think there is any dispute about the Ramsar listing? Will this document be made difficulties in relation to the matter. I am still public? Further, has the minister yet notified concerned about it. If documents can be made the Ramsar bureau that a Ramsar site is about public, I will make them public. (Time ex- to be degraded, as required by the protocol of pired) the Montreau convention? ‘Wright Family’ Senator HILL—I certainly have not done Senator NEAL—My question is addressed the second. I think your party wrote to the to the Minister for Employment, Education, Ramsar bureau to allege that that was a fact; Training and Youth Affairs, Senator so there would hardly be any point, even if I Vanstone. I ask the minister whether she is accepted the premise of the second part of the aware that the Reverend Harry Herbert, question. I personally have not yet received General Secretary of the Uniting Church the case for urgent national interest or the Board for Social Responsibility, had this to alternative compensatory habitat. I have been say about your use of the so-called ‘Wright’ waiting on it. It is to come from two separate family: ‘It matters because Senator Vanstone Victorian ministers. I will ask again when I and other people’—I want to make sure you get back to the office to see whether it has hear this, so I will pause. Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4401

Government senators interjecting— that, yes, the department made a mistake and, The PRESIDENT—Order! I ask the clerk yes, we have done what we can to try to to reset the clocks for Senator Neal to recom- correct it. mence her question. If Senator Neal does not understand that Senator NEAL—Reverend Herbert said: ‘It that means I am admitting my department matters because Senator Vanstone and other made a mistake; I am admitting that we people in the Federal Government, for quite inadvertently misled the committee; and I am some time, have been campaigning against telling you we have done all we could to people on social security. They’ve been correct it—why does she still come in here spreading the idea that there are all these and tell people who are listening that I have rorters in social security. And in fact, that’s deliberately made up a fictitious example? a reflection on everybody in Australia who What is the case here, Senator: do you not gets their benefits from social security. And understand what I have said or are you in this, I think, is the crowning achievement of your question trying to mislead yet again? Senator Vanstone, that she should indulge in That is what I want to hear when Senator the campaign to the extent that she would Neal gets up, if she has the guts, to ask a even make up a fictitious example and put it supplementary. That is what I want to know. around as if it really was a true case.’ As to Mr Herbert, if you want the answer Minister, how do you respond to this accusa- to this, I am happy to give it to you. But if tion? Doesn’t it indicate that you were just you want to have a side discussion with plain wrong in asserting on PM last night that Senator West, I am happy for you to do that ‘not a lot of damage has been done’? too. The bottom line here is that I do not Senator VANSTONE—I would like to say attribute bad faith to Mr Herbert in the way that I thank Senator Neal for that question but I attribute bad faith to Senator Neal, unless I do not. I think you will find in the question, she gets up and says that she accepts what I Madam President—which is often the case in have told her and offers me an apology for a question or a supplementary from that insinuating in this place that I have lied on side—that an offensive assertion was made. numerous occasions and deliberately lied to I have come into this place on a number of this chamber. I do not attribute that bad faith occasions, and I have written to the commit- to Mr Herbert. He probably believes that I did tee and I have said— make it up myself and, if so, he has been misinformed. Perhaps I will take the oppor- Opposition senators interjecting— tunity to write to him. He might have the The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator good grace to write to me and say he was Vanstone, just wait until there is order in the misinformed. chamber. Senator Neal, I invite you to point on the Senator VANSTONE—I have said, ‘Look, record where I have ever got stuck into social the department admits that the so-called security recipients. There are numerous Wright family started as a family to which occasions where I have taken the opportunity they then made changes.’ When I became to say that social security benefits and aware of that, I did all that I could. This has Austudy should be going to the most needy. been clearly admitted in here. The reason your party introduced an actual means test was that you realised, and properly Senator Neal, you might take the opportuni- realised, there were wealthy people who could ty in a supplementary to tell me whether you manipulate their income and assets so as to refuse to accept what a senator puts in writing get both Austudy and social security benefits. and says in this place on a number of occasions. By saying that I would even make up That is the reason you did it and that is the a fictitious example, are you asserting that reason we supported you. you reject what I have said in my letter to But in your supplementary, Senator Neal, Senator Tierney? Are you saying you reject this is what I want to hear from you: do you me twice coming into this place and saying accept the commitment I have given to this 4402 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 chamber that my department gave me the avoid the dangers of the inadvertent creation wrong information, that I inadvertently misled of super-resistant diseases? What mandatory the committee and that I have corrected that reporting requirements are there for GMAC, error? the Genetic Manipulation Advisory Council, The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator to be advised of the risks? What reporting Vanstone, you should address your remarks procedures are there for the minister to be through the chair. kept informed and advised of dangerous incidents or potentially dangerous incidents Senator NEAL—Madam President, I ask involving genetically engineered organisms? a supplementary question. I can understand that Senator Vanstone might become confused Senator PARER—This is a very complex and agitated in light of the questions, but I question. I know Senator Harradine feels very must point out to her that the statement was strongly about this. I think his views are made by Harry Herbert and not me. Further, shared by many people in this chamber. I I would like to ask whether the minister is have no brief from Minister McGauran on aware of the swelling popular support for this. I will refer the question to him and come Reverend Herbert’s proposal that she should back to you. be required to do 100 hours community Budget 1996-97 service explaining social security to people Senator MURPHY—My question is and showing that the overwhelming number directed to the Minister for Employment, of recipients are receiving benefits to which Education, Training and Youth Affairs, they are rightfully entitled? Senator Vanstone. Do you recall preaching to Senator VANSTONE—Thank you very this chamber on 9 October about the import- much, Senator Neal. I am prepared to say that ance of the truth. You stated: if a senator, and particularly a minister, . . . for voters to cast their vote it must be on the deliberately made up a fictitious example and basis of what has actually happened: the truth. deliberately misled a committee Mr Herbert There is therefore a very strong interest in the truth is a bit light in his punishment. If you deliber- being told. ately mislead a committee you deserve every- Is it not the truth, as confirmed by your thing you get. There is no question about it. department at estimates, that budget cuts to But the point I have made to you is I did not DEETYA will be around $4.3 billion over do that, just as Senator Schacht did not do four years, university operating grants will be that. cut by $623.6 million, discretionary funds will Everybody makes mistakes. My department be cut by $214.6 million, Austudy will be cut regrets the mistake it has made. The secretary by over $500 million and the Commonwealth has apologised to the committee. I regret that will now be funding some 17,000 fewer the department made this mistake, but I take university places in 1997 and 1998? These are responsibility for it. I have tried to fix the the cuts you described as ‘just a nick—you problem. I accept that the committee was would not even put a bandaid on them’. Is misled. I have come in here on a number of this not just another case, as with the phantom occasions and told you that. I have told you Wright family, of you peddling half truths and that after question time I will give you every deceptions? Aren’t the vice-chancellors right document that I have explaining this matter. in accusing you of not helping debate by If you do not understand that, I do not know pretending that the effect of government what is wrong with you. changes is less than it is and your statements are unrealistic and mislead the public? (Time Genetic Manipulation expired) Senator HARRADINE—My question is Senator VANSTONE—I thank Senator directed to the Minister representing the Murphy for the opportunity of raising, yet Minister for Science and Technology and again, the mistruths that your lot have been relates to genetic manipulation. What restric- peddling vis-a-vis the higher education budg- tions are placed on genetic manipulation to et. What I have said—and I will take this Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4403 opportunity to repeat it; I thank you very for preliminary ministerial meeting discus- much for that opportunity—is that operating sions. Indonesia also has some close higher grants for universities are being cut by one education links with us. I am then taking the per cent of what they were expecting to get opportunity to go to the New Horizons con- next year. That will leave them with more ference in India, where we hope to build our money next year than they had this year. I educational relationships. Every chance I get have consistently argued that it is improper I will be making a number of things clear: for people to suggest to year 12 students who firstly, we have an excellent higher education might want to apply for places that there will system; secondly, anything that is good can be fewer places for them next year. We have still get better; and, thirdly, the cut to operat- undertaken to fund about 5,000 more under- ing grants is one per cent of what they were graduate places next year. expecting to get next year, leaving them with It is true that we have not asked the univer- more than they had this year—that there are sities to teach the same number of people for more undergraduate places because we want less dollars. What we have said to them is more young Australians to have that chance that they can cut load. In order to protect the and that— opportunities for young Australians to have Senator Carr—There are 17,000 less. the first crack at higher education, we have Senator VANSTONE—There are not said to them that we do not want them to do 17,000 fewer undergraduate places. it in the undergraduate area. We want to maintain the opportunity for young Austral- Senator Carr—There are 17,000 less over ians to get that first chance and operate under two years. Labor’s HECS system, which we support and Senator VANSTONE—There are not. The where it does not matter how much money cut in places comes, Senator—you do not you have, you do not have to pay your contri- seem to understand what I have just told bution back until you start earning. you—from postgraduate course work places. For that reason, we have maintained that. Senator Carr—You are not telling the We are actually adding to the number of truth. undergraduate places next year. The drop in Senator VANSTONE—I invite you to places over a period of time will be a drop in withdraw that, Senator. You will regret it if postgraduate course work places which you you do not. Senator Carr does not want to. I may realise are places that can already be tell you he has made a misstatement of the bought. I think it was your government, facts and I leave him to correct that at another Senator Murphy, that introduced the oppor- time. tunity for Australian graduates to do that. The senator sitting next to you chose to pay for Senator MURPHY—Madam President, I his postgraduate education elsewhere. I hope ask a supplementary question. Minister, I that is not a comment by him on the quality congratulate you on the major overseas jaunt of Australian higher education because it is of that you are going to go on to sell what the exemplary quality. vice-chancellors think we are going to have less of. But, before you do that, you might I am taking the opportunity next week to go like to inform the Senate when you are going to a number of conferences and try to pro- to respond to the vice-chancellors’ challenge mote Australian higher education overseas. I to articulate some form of vision for this am going to Malaysia to the first conference sector that is not driven by physical and of Australian alumni students. As you would ideological obsessions and which recognises know, we have about 11,000 students from the importance of higher education in devel- Malaysia here each year. oping Australian society. Senator Kernot—Have you got your Senator VANSTONE—Senator, I wish you answers ready on racism? had asked me that question first because it Senator VANSTONE—I can’t hear you, takes a lot more than one minute to answer. Senator, I am sorry. I am going to Indonesia Perhaps Senator Carr will do me the justice 4404 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 of asking me a question later so that I can the parliament is fully informed. A mistake give you another bout on it. The vice-chancel- was made. I believe it was an inadvertent one. lors want to protect the money they are Senator Robert Ray—You knew in ad- getting; anyone who gets money from the vance. Why were the questions asked at Commonwealth does want to do so. But I tell estimates? you this: they would much rather have the package we have than go along, steady as she Senator VANSTONE—I acknowledge that goes. They want to be able to sell places to interjection and you will have the opportunity Australian students. They think it is unfair to correct it. It was an inadvertent mistake. It that international students can buy a place and has been frankly acknowledged by me and by Australians cannot. my department. There is nothing to hide; nor, The vice-chancellors, generally speaking, by the way, did I ever seek to interest the agree that a higher HECS contribution is fair media in the so-called Wright family. Follow- enough. After all, we do not give the kids ing media coverage, I simply responded to a who do not get to go to university $20,000 limited number of media requests. worth or something to set them up for the rest First, I provide the paper already made of their lives. The vice-chancellors agree that available to the Senate committee which was we should return the HECS contribution from provided by the department and which sets overloaded students, which you never did. out the profile of the Wright family. Second, Your government was very greedy. You kept I provide the profiles of actual families also that contribution to yourself, put it straight given to me by the department which confirm into the coffers. We are not doing that. Uni- the importance of the actual means test in versities, I think, recognise the value in this ensuring that Austudy goes to those who are package. You do not want to take too much genuinely needy, not those who have had the notice of political posturing. opportunity to structure their financial affairs Senator Hill—Madam President, I ask that so as to gain the benefit despite being well further questions be placed on the Notice off. That is why the Labor Party introduced Paper. the actual means test: so money would go to the needy and not the greedy, as Senator ‘WRIGHT FAMILY’ Newman said. That was the essence of the policy point which the department was seek- Senator VANSTONE (South Australia— ing to make to me in developing the Wright Minister for Employment, Education, Training example. and Youth Affairs) (3.03 p.m.)—As I indicated in question time, I seek leave to make a Third, I provide the note from the secretary statement and to provide some documents to of the department to me by which I was first the Senate. advised that the Wrights were not an actual family, along with attachments to that letter. Senator Faulkner—On the issue of leave This note also frankly acknowledges errors to Senator Vanstone, it is the opposition’s made in the calculation of benefits. I just wish intention to grant leave. I have indicated to to add there that there may be some confusion Senator Hill that the Leader of the Opposition on some senators’ part. Senator Newman will be seeking leave to make a response to contacted me about the calculation of social the statement, which he has indicated will be security benefits. It is this document that I am agreed by the government. tabling which first advised me that the Wright Leave granted. family was not an actual family. Senator VANSTONE—I thank the Senate. Fourth, after discussion between my office I want to make a short statement on the and the secretary, minor amendments were circumstances surrounding the Wright family. made to the attachments. I enclose a copy of This matter has generated considerable inter- those attachments lest anybody think there is est. I therefore wish to table documents in anything sinister in the minor amendments relation to this matter in order to ensure that that were made. Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4405

Fifth, I provide a chronology of events, the humour is that, to the best of my know- including the subsequent consideration by me ledge, all of the public servants involved in and my office of the secretary’s note and of this matter are public servants who served the a letter to Senator Tierney as chair of the previous government well— Senate committee. This chronology demon- Opposition senators—Oh! strates that the matter was considered and acted upon in good time and that there was Senator VANSTONE—They are good never any intention on my part, or that of my public servants. department, to sweep the error under the rug. Senator Robert Ray—He is an excellent I simply wanted to be very sure that I had public servant. Absolutely. He deserves better correct and adequate information which would than you. allow me to inform the committee in an The PRESIDENT—Order! accurate way, given the earlier error that had clearly occurred. Senator VANSTONE—Senator Ray interjects, I think referring to Mr Hollway, that he Sixth, I referred yesterday in this place to is an excellent public servant, and I agree adjustments being made between the Wright with that. case and the actual case from which it was drawn—which is included in the examples Senator Robert Ray—Absolutely, and he mentioned earlier as the second document I deserves better than you. am tabling. In referring to that, I mentioned Senator VANSTONE—Senator Ray un- changes to family composition. Early last charitably says that he deserves better than evening, the department faxed to me notice of me. Nonetheless, the department that served some changes made to the business assets and the previous government—I presume as well education expenses of the so-called Wright as they are serving us—acknowledges that family. I indicated during question time, I they made a mistake and for you to laugh at think, that I had received such advice last them I do not think is so funny. The third evening, and I include that advice. aspect that I do not think is amusing, but Perhaps I should go back to that point. I which the opposition seems to think is amus- indicate that I am providing to the Senate that ing, is that the matter of correcting the record which I am now advised is a complete ac- and taking the appropriate steps and acting count from the department of the changes with honesty and integrity is an important made to what started off being an actual one; it is not a funny one. So I do not under- family. stand the humour. Seventh, I provide— I understand some of the concerns here because with Labor ministers, when a mistake Senator Bob Collins—This is a Lego has been made, you have to drag it out of family, is it—a Barbie doll family? them. It was like getting teeth out of a chick- Senator Schacht—Are you going to be a en, as rare as hen’s teeth, in respect of people scriptwriter for The Simpsons? from the other side who came in and did what they could to make the record as clear as Senator VANSTONE—I really do not possible. So I understand their embarrassment. understand the humour, Madam President. I do not understand the humour for three Nonetheless, seventhly I provide to the reasons. Firstly, I have indicated a clear Senate the text of a letter sent to Senator example of a minister being misled by his Tierney by the secretary of my department department in the past who did not take the reiterating that the department was in error in opportunities to correct the record until he how the Wright case was characterised to me, was caught out—unlike myself. For people summarising the context and apologising for with that former minister among their ranks the mistake. to think it is funny and to somehow think that Eighth, I provide a letter to me from the there should be some difference here amazes Clerk of the Senate, Harry Evans, in which he me. The second reason I cannot understand concludes that on the basis of precedent, and 4406 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 that precedent is Senator Schacht, the Senate Senator Robert Ray—Incorporate them in would not hold me liable for giving mis- Hansard, then we can all read them. leading evidence. Senator VANSTONE—I seek leave to Ninth, the secretary’s letter—which is not incorporate the documents in Hansard. a document to be tabled—to Senator Tierney Leave granted. has indicated, as I have in the chamber to the senator, who is still here, that I have overseas The documents read as follows— commitments next week when the committee The Wright Family will meet, as does the departmental secretary. Family Profile & Circumstances1 These are important matters to try to promote The Wrights are a family of two parents and three higher education for Australia overseas. children aged 16, 14 and 6 months. Mr and Mrs Although specialist officers will be present, Wright are partners in a building business. Mrs the relevant division head will be on leave. Wright works in the business part-time and has the baby in paid childcare 4 days a week for all but I have spoken today to Senator Tierney and two weeks in the year. The family’s home valued indicated the times that the secretary and I at $1.1 million is in an exclusive inner city lo- will be back. I have indicated when Ms cation. They own a truck and a Range Rover Lovett will be back and indicated that either valued at $40,000 and they have a city apartment when the secretary and I are back, or a few as an investment valued at $500,000. Mortgage and other expenditure on their home and the investment days later when Ms Lovett is back as well, property total $107,098 p.a. while fees for the two we would be only too happy to meet with the older children attending a category one private committee. Despite putting all of this on the school are $18,200 p.a. record, if they nonetheless have more ques- Financial Profile 1 tions I will be only too happy to meet at that AUSTUDY Assets Declared—Business assets time and tell them anything else we can. $120,000 and Other assets $50,000 Madam President, I am not sure whether I DSS Assets Declared—Total assets $170,000 asked to table these documents. If I did not, Actual Means—Total annual non-business expendi- I do so now, unless you do not want me to. ture—$188,969

Father Mother Combined Taxable Income $8,010 $4,313 $12,323 Tax Paid $522 NIL $522 Medicare & Gun Levy 2 NIL NIL NIL After Tax Income $7,488 $4313 $11,801

Cash Government Benefits

Program Agency Rate Annual $ AUSTUDY 3 DEETYA $140.60 fortnightly for Student 1 $3,675.70 Family Payment 3 DSS $214.20 fortnightly for 2 children $5,569.20 Parenting Allowance DSS $229 fortnightly to Mother $5,954.00 Maternity Allowance DSS One off payment for new baby $857.40 Childcare Cash Rebate HIC $28.80 weekly $1,440.00 Childcare Assistance DSS $156.40 fortnightly (to care provider) $3,910.00

Total Commonwealth Assistance4—$21,406.30 Less tax paid—$522.00 Net benefit (profit) from Commonwealth—$20,884.30 Health Care Card Benefits Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4407

Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme $14.10 discount per script on pharmacy prescrip- tions Free scripts after $140.40 in calendar year Medicare Automatic access to bulk-billing Dental Care Free treatment in dental hospitals Student Assistance Waiver of income test = maximum rate Other Benefits Range of State and Local Government and private sector concessions (e.g. discount public transport, utilities etc.) 1 Family profile and financial circumstances based on a real family tested by AUSTUDY Actual Means Test. 2 Both father & mother exempt from 1.5% Medicare Levy & the special 0.2% Gun Levy due to low taxable income. 3 Student 1 would not be eligible for AUSTUDY due to the Actual Means Test. Instead family would qualify for an additional $58.20 in Family Payments (FP) a fortnight for the student, making their total annual FP $7,082.40. 4 All assistance is tax free except the Additional component of the Parenting Allowance ($4,287 pa) & AUSTUDY.

AMT CASE STUDIES (one student turns 22 during the year and so is not affected by the AMT from that time). Case studies of families: FAMILY 2 with at least one dependent child under 16, Family description and circumstances with net assets of less than $180,000 under the The applicant is a secondary student aged 16 years AUSTUDY asset test, and of age and has three other brothers and sisters ineligible under the AUSTUDY actual means under 16 years of age. The family lives in a house test with a declared value of $190,000 and has two vehicles worth a total of $18,000. Education FAMILY 1 expenses are $2,605 pa. The father gives his Family description and circumstances occupation as a Company Director of an Automo- The applicants are tertiary students aged 21 (turning tive Company and has an interest in at least one 22) and 20. There are two other children aged 13 private company. During this year he has also and 11. The family lives in a house valued at $1.1 bought shares/investments valued at $32,000. million in an exclusive inner city suburb with Net declared assets under Assets Test $25,000 mortgage and other costs of $19,552 p.a. The (approx.) parents are partners in a building business. They Taxable income $4,132 (combined parental) have two vehicles worth a total of $40,000 (a truck and a Range Rover). Education expenses appear Actual means $63,561 understated at $7,700 pa as the expenses for the If not for the Actual Means Test, the student would two younger children haven’t been provided. The receive AUSTUDY totalling $3,675 in 1996. family also own a terrace house with mortgage and other costs of $87,546 pa. Other financial expenses FAMILY 3 (including architect fees and loan repayments) total $54,176 pa. Investments and property (other than Family description and circumstances the family home) are valued at $500,000. The applicants are a secondary student aged 17 Net declared assets under Assets Test $50,000 years of age and a tertiary student aged 19. There are three other children in the family aged 12, 10 Taxable income $12,323 (combined parental) and 8. The family lives in a rented house with total Actual means $188,969 rent of $26,000 pa. The father is employed as a real estate agent while the mother is a clerical assistant If not for the Actual Means Test (AMT), each in local government. They have a trust or private student would receive the maximum AUSTUDY company and own a shop valued at $600,000 (with standard (‘at home’) rate of $169.10 a fortnight a mortgage payment of $90,000 pa) and two 4408 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 vehicles. Education expenses are $22,198 pa, with one other student under 16. The family lives in a four children at private schools. rented house with payments of $13,000 pa. They Net declared assets under Assets Test $75,000 lease two recent model vehicles worth a total of $32,500. Education expenses are about $10,000 pa Taxable income $1,603 (combined parental) with the two eldest students attending a category 3 Actual means $175,139 private school. The father gives his occupation as If not for the Actual Means Test, the two students a TAB Agent whilst the mother gives her occupa- would receive AUSTUDY totalling $7,830 in 1996. tion as a sales assistant in a newsagency. The family also has an 100% interest in a shop with a FAMILY 4 declared gross value of $340,000. Family description and circumstances Net declared assets under Assets Test $100,000 The applicant is a secondary student aged 17 years Taxable income NIL (combined parental) of age. There is one other student under 16 years of age. The family lives in a house valued at Actual means $76,564 $400,000, has at least two late model vehicles If not for the Actual Means Test, the two students worth a total of $54,500. Education expenses are would receive AUSTUDY totalling $10,357 in $2,200 pa. The family has an interest in a trust, 1996. private company or partnership. The partnership has FAMILY 7 an 100% interest in an investment property with a declared worth of $75,000. The parents both give Family description and circumstances their occupations as self-employed salespersons in The applicant is a secondary student aged 16 years the family’s private company. of age and has three other brothers and sisters Net declared assets under Assets Test $62,500 under 16 years of age. The family home is owned outright and has a declared gross value of Taxable income—Not shown. (Exempt from $350,000. The parents have a passive $400,000 AUSTUDY parental income test as parents in investment in a poultry farm, and own a late model receipt of a Health Care Card on the basis of low vehicle worth $15,000. The father gives his occupa- taxable income) tion as a shop assistant and the mother as home Actual means $54,111 duties. Education expenses are $6,633 pa with the If not for the Actual Means Test, the student would applicant attending a private school. receive AUSTUDY totalling $3,675 in 1996. Net declared assets under Assets Test $12,000 FAMILY 5 Taxable income $4,979 (combined parental) Family description and circumstances Actual means $143,875 The applicant is a tertiary student aged 46 years of If not for the Actual Means Test, the student would age. He is married with 4 children, a 17 year old receive AUSTUDY totalling $3,675 in 1996. full-time student (not applying for AUSTUDY) and FAMILY 8 three other children under 4 years of age. The family rents a terrace house in a inner city suburb Family description and circumstances (valued at $500,000) from a relative with rent The applicant is a secondary student turning 18 payments of $15,600 pa. The applicant and his wife years of age later this year. She has a younger are in a partnership which owns a house which is brother aged 13 years and an older brother aged 19. negatively geared, their loan repayments being The family lives in a house with a declared value $50,552 pa. The applicant owns two vehicles $300,000, with mortgage payments of $32,000 pa. outright (a 1984 Mercedes and a 1989 lorry) valued The declared gross value of their interest in a at $26,000. factory, and the offices in which the applicant’s Net declared assets under Assets Test $158,000 father carries on his occupation of solicitor, is (asset limit $166,650) $250,000 (with loan repayments and other property expenses of $71,530 pa). The mother gives her Taxable income NIL (partner) occupation as home duties. The family has 3 motor NIL (applicant) vehicles (a ‘88 Mercedes and two 1983 BMWs) Actual means $88,360 with a declared value of $8,000. Education expenses are estimated at $15,000 pa with the two secon- If not for the Actual Means Test, the student would dary students attending a category 3 private school. receive AUSTUDY totalling $8,129 in 1996. The family is currently in receipt of a Health Care FAMILY 6 Card on the basis of low income, which exempts Family description and circumstances them from the AUSTUDY parental income test. The applicants are a tertiary student aged 18 years Net declared assets under Assets Test Nil of age and a secondary student aged 16. There is Taxable income Not shown Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4409

Actual means $190,326 Senate Estimates Committee, and picked up in If not for the Actual Means Test, the student would press reporting, that the Wrights are an actual receive AUSTUDY totalling $3,940 in 1996. family. FAMILY 9 This became clear to me only yesterday evening Family description and circumstances when we were considering a request from DSS to release data to them so that they could check the The applicants are tertiary students aged 18 and 20. Social Security payments reportedly being made to There is another child aged 13. The family lives in the Wrights. Notwithstanding this, as Secretary, I a house valued at $160,000 and has three vehicles must not only apologise on behalf of the Depart- worth a total of $22,000. The family has a one ment but accept responsibility for our not accurate- third interest in shopping centres worth $11 million ly informing you of the status of the Wright case. ($3,986,666). Education expenses are $7,000 pa. The substantive point remains that there are Net declared assets under Assets Test $100,000 families well off but with a low taxable income and Taxable income $29,500 (combined parental) low net assets able to draw Government benefits in Actual means $128,000 (approx) the absence of a rigorous actual means test. If not for the Actual Means Test, the two students It also remains true that the Government has would have received AUSTUDY totalling $7,747 correctly identified this problem and signalled its in 1996. intention to address it. FAMILY 10 To a significant extent the paper prepared in the Family description and circumstances Department on the Wright case properly illustrates these points. The problem is less its content than The applicant is a secondary student aged 16. There our fault in not clearly advising you on its status. is a another child aged 11. The family lives in a house valued at $394,000 and has two cars valued The paper (attached) notes that the family profile at $40,000. The family’s company ("corporation") and financial circumstances are "based on a real owns a franchise with a well known fast food chain family" tested by the Austudy Actual Means Test. with a value of $90,244 and leases a 4-wheel drive This is correct. But some details (e.g. number of landcruiser (costing $9,426 pa), mainly for private children) were adjusted to illustrate the range of use. The applicant and her sister both attend private payments that might be available to a family. The schools. The family’s total education expenses are paper lists "benefits available" rather than benefits $6,514 pa. actually being paid. Net declared assets under Assets Test $175,529 The paper incorporated in Hansard in the course of Taxable income $10,000 (combined parental) the Estimates Hearings therefore contains these caveats. Actual means $130,263 However, I believe the Committee would have been If not for the Actual Means Test, the student would left with the impression from the oral testimony receive AUSTUDY of $3,524 in 1996. that the Wrights were an actual family. I am seeking to check Hansard as urgently as possible, but certainly you said that you understood it was "a specific example". You were entitled to say this Department of Employment, Education, Training on the basis of the Department’s advice to you. and Youth Affairs Office of the Secretary Recommendation: that you write to the Chairman of the Senate Estimates Committee indicating that Minute you have just been informed of the status of the SENATOR VANSTONE Wright case and drawing this to the Committee’s attention. A draft letter for your consideration is The purpose of this note is to: attached. . inform you that the Wright family is not an My recollection of the ERC discussions is that your actual family by another name but a construct Ministerial colleagues are also likely to have gained based on a real family with some variations; the impression that the Wrights are an actual . acknowledge that the Department has failed to family. Again, this is notwithstanding that a close make this clear to you before; reading of the document itself shows that the . inform you that DSS has advised us that some Wrights are based on a real family. aspects of the calculations of payments to the Recommendation: that you inform your colleagues Wrights are incorrect; on the ERC, perhaps through your office speaking . suggest action that should now be taken in light to theirs and passing them a copy of the letter of the impression left with the ERC and the referred to above. 4410 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

The calculations of Social Security benefits were This paper correctly notes that the family profile not developed by the Department in consultation and financial circumstances of the "Wrights" are with DSS. That Department, having now had the based on a real family tested by the Austudy Actual opportunity to check the calculations, has advised Means Test. us that the calculation made for Parenting Allow- The sums cited are referred to as benefits available. ance ($5,954 p.a.) should be $156 p.a. There are two other small variations. A note from DSS is Nonetheless, I wish to inform you and other attached. members of the Committee frankly that it had been my understanding that the Wrights were an actual Recommendation: these discrepancies should also family. I believe the Committee is likely to have be drawn to attention in the letter to the Estimates had the same understanding from the discussion Committee and the advice to ERC colleagues which took place. above. Finally, there is the issue that a number of press I have now been informed by my Department that, reports have clearly taken the Wrights to be an in developing the Wright profile to illustrate actual family and the payments to them actual payments which could be available, it made some payments rather than benefits available. I believe adjustment to the actual case on which the example this needs to be promptly corrected. is based. I have also been advised that the Depart- ment of Social Security calculates two payments Recommendation: that you issue a media release, differently—namely Parenting Allowance ($156 draft attached. p.a.) and Child Care Assistance ($3,840 for 50 It is important to proceed in concert with Social weeks)—compared with the figures in the Security in the handling of this matter. I have Department’s paper. The Department of Social shown these papers to the Secretary of DSS, who Security also notes that the husband would be has cleared them from his point of view, but entitled to a low income rebate of $150 p.a. which coordination at Ministerial level is also important. would reduce his tax liability from $522 to $372. Recommendation: that before taking the steps In correcting the record for you and other members proposed above you speak directly to Minister of the Committee I wish to emphasise the substan- Newman. tive point that there are families who have low Finally, I should note that the other cases which the taxable income and low nett assets who are able to Department put forward in the documents for the draw Government benefits. This is a problem the ERC were cases of actual families. Also, they did Government has identified and is addressing. not include an attempt by the Department to The Secretary of the Department, having himself calculate Social Security benefits. We can be become aware of the status of the Wright case, has confident, therefore, of their accuracy based on acknowledged the Department’s fault in not making information actually provided to us by the clients. fully clear the status of the example. Nonetheless D.A. Hollway in moving quickly to correct the record I also apologise that we were not clearer with the Com- 26 September 1996 mittee. Yours sincerely Minister for Employment, Education, Training and AMANDA VANSTONE Youth Affairs Parliament House Canberra ACT 2600 DRAFT MEDIA RELEASE Senator John Tierney Chair Status of the Wright Family Senate Committee on Employment, Education, Training and Youth Affairs Legislation A number of media reports have referred to Parliament House Government benefits being paid to the "Wright Canberra ACT 2600 family". The Wright example was also used in the Senate Committee examining the Budget for my Dear Senator Tierney Portfolio earlier this week. At the Committee’s hearings on the Employment, Education, Training and Youth Affairs Portfolio on As the paper from my Department on the Wrights notes, the family profile and financial circum- 23 September 1996 the example of the Wright stances are based on a real family tested by the family was discussed in the context of questions Austudy Actual Means Test. But the Department about the Austudy Actual Means Test. adjusted some details to illustrate the payments that A paper provided by my Department, and on which could be available. The case is illustrative, rather I drew, was incorporated in the Hansard. than an actual family. Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4411

The paper was first prepared as an internal and The Wright Family illustrative document, and the Department has expressed its regret to me that the status of the Family Profile & Circumstances1 Wright example was not made fully clear. The Wrights are a family of two parents and three The figures on payments were also illustrative and children aged 16, 14 and 6 months. Mr and Mrs based on my Department’s estimate of family Wright are partners in a building business. Mrs entitlements. On checking with the Department of Wright works in the business part-time and has the Social Security they need some adjustment, mainly baby in paid childcare 4 days a week for all but that the Parenting Allowance would be $156 p.a. two weeks in the year. The family’s home valued rather than $5954 p.a. at $1.1 million is in an exclusive inner city lo- The Government benefits in the Wright case would cation. They own a truck and a Range Rover still be in the order of $15,000 p.a. (rather than valued at $40,000 and they have a city apartment $20,000 p.a.). as an investment valued at $500,000. Mortgage and Having now been informed by the Department of other expenditure on their home and the investment the status of the Wright example, I have written property total $107,098 p.a. while fees for the two immediately to Senator Tierney as Chair of the older children attending a category one private relevant Committee to set the record absolutely school are $18,200 p.a. straight. Financial Profile1 The point is that there are very well off families AUSTUDY Assets Declared—Business assets with low taxable income and low nett assets able $120,000 and Other assets $50,000 to gain Government benefits. DSS Assets Declared—Total assets $170,000 The problem is a real one and the Government is addressing it. Actual Means—Total annual non-business expenditure—$188,969

Father Mother Combined

Taxable Income $8,010 $4,313 $12,323 Tax Paid $522 NIL $522 Medicare & Gun Levy 2 NIL NIL NIL After Tax Income $7,488 $4313 $11,801

Cash Government Benefits Available

Program Agency Rate 4 Annual $ AUSTUDY 3 DEETYA $140.60 fortnightly for Student 1 $3,675.70 Family Payment 3 DSS $214.20 fortnightly for 2 children $5,569.20 Parenting Allowance DSS $229 fortnightly to Mother $5,954.00 Maternity Allowance DSS One off payment for new baby $857.40 Childcare Cash Rebate HIC $28.80 weekly $1,440.00 Childcare Assistance DSS $156.40 fortnightly (to care provid- $3,910.00 er)

Total Commonwealth Assistance5—$21,406.30 Less tax paid—$522.00 Net benefit (profit) from Commonwealth—$20,884.30 Health Care Card Benefits Available 4412 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme $14.10 discount per script on pharmacy prescrip- tions Free scripts after $140.40 in calendar year Medicare Automatic access to bulk-billing Dental Care Free treatment in dental hospitals Student Assistance Waiver of income test = maximum rate Other Benefits Range of State and Local Government and private sector concessions (e.g. discount public transport, utilities etc.) 1 Family profile and financial circumstances based on a real family tested by AUSTUDY Actual Means Test. 2 Both father & mother exempt from 1.5% Medicare Levy & the special 0.2% Gun Levy due to low taxable income. 3 Student 1 would not be eligible for AUSTUDY due to the Actual Means Test. Instead family would qualify for an additional $58.20 a fortnight in Family Payments (FP) for the student, making their total annual FP $7,082.40. 4 All payments to the family are at the maximum rate except the Additional component of the Parenting Allowance. 5 All assistance is tax free except the Additional component of the Parenting Allowance ($4,287 pa) & AUSTUDY.

Wright Family

$pf $ annual AUSTUDY(1) 140.60 3,675.70 Family Payment 1 child under 13 93.10 1 child 13-15 121.10 Total 214.20 5,569.20 Basic Parenting Allowance (2) 6.00 156.00 Maternity Allowance 857.40 (once only) Child Care Cash Rebate 57.60 1,440.00 Childcare Assistance 153.60 3,840.00 (50 weeks) Total Commonwealth Assistance 456.25 15,538.30 less tax paid (3) 372.00 Net Commonwealth Assistance 15,166.30 (1) Student would not be eligible for AUSTUDY under the Actual Means Test and would therefore qualify for an additional $58.20 per fortnight in Family Payment bringing the family’s total annual Family Payment entitlement to $7,082.40. (2) The family’s total business assets are $240,000 (DEETYA discounts business assets at the rate of 50%). Personal assets are $50,000. Total assets are therefore $290,000 which is above the Additional Parenting Allowance assets limit of $176,000. Basic Parenting Allowance is not assets tested but is income tested on the recipient’s income above $1,560 per annum. There is no entitlement to Basic Parenting Allowance once the recipient’s income reaches $4,535. The entitlement to Basic Parenting Allowance is based on rates as at 25 September 1996. (3) Husband is entitled to the Low Income Rebate of $150 per annum which reduces his tax liability from $522 to $372. Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4413

Department of Employment, Education, Training $20,000). Therefore in clarifying the status and the and Youth Affairs figures in the Wright example, I wish to emphasise Facsimile the substantive point that there are families who Office of the Secretary have low taxable income and low nett assets who TO: John Nation are able to draw Government benefits. This is a FROM: Sandy Hollway problem the Government has identified and is MESSAGE: addressing. John The Secretary of the Department, having himself Here is the letter to Senator Tierney and the Media become aware of the status of the Wright case, has Release redrafted along the lines we discussed. acknowledged that the Department should have Also, please note the news release by Senator made it clearer from the outset that while based on Newman attached. a real family the example also included modifications to illustrate the point. Nonetheless in moving I will be available at the office or on my mobile quickly to correct the record I also apologise that (018 627 837) if needed. we were not clearer with the Committee. SANDY Yours sincerely AMANDA VANSTONE Minister for Employment, Education, Training and Youth Affairs Parliament House DRAFT MEDIA RELEASE Canberra ACT 2600 Senator John Tierney Status of the Wright Family Chair A number of media reports have referred to Senate Committee on Employment, Education, Government benefits being paid to the "Wright Training and Youth Affairs Legislation family". The Wright example was also used in the Parliament House Senate Committee examining the Budget for my Canberra ACT 2600 Portfolio earlier this week. Dear Senator Tierney As the paper from my Department on the Wrights At the Committee’s hearings on the Employment, notes the family profile and financial circumstances Education, Training and Youth Affairs Portfolio on are based on a real family tested by the Austudy 23 September 1996 the example of the Wright Actual Means Test. But the Department adjusted family was discussed in the context of questions some details to illustrate the payments that could about the Austudy Actual Means Test. be available. The case is illustrative, rather than an A paper provided by my Department, and on which actual family. I drew, was incorporated in the Hansard. The paper was first prepared as an internal and This paper correctly notes that the family profile illustrative document, and the Department has and financial circumstances of the "Wrights" are expressed its regret to me that the status of the based on a real family tested by the Austudy Actual Wright example was not made fully clear. Means Test. The figures on payments were also illustrative and Nonetheless, I believe the Committee is likely to based on my Department’s estimate of family have had the understanding—as did I—that the entitlements. Department of Social Security esti- Wrights are an actual family. I have now been mates show that the figures need some adjustment, informed by my Department that, in developing the mainly that the Parenting Allowance would be $156 Wright profile it made some adjustment to the p.a. rather than $5,954 p.a. actual case to illustrate the payments that could be available. I have also been advised that the Depart- The Government benefits in the Wright case would ment of Social Security estimates two payments still be in the order of $15,000 p.a. (rather than differently—namely Parenting Allowance ($156 $20,000 p.a.). p.a.) and Child Care Assistance ($3,840 for 50 The point is that there are very well off families weeks)—compared with the figures in the with low taxable income and low nett assets able Department’s paper. The Department of Social to gain Government benefits. Security also notes that the husband would be entitled to a low income rebate of $150 p.a. which The problem is a real one and the Government is would reduce his tax liability from $522 to $372. addressing it. The Government benefits in the Wright case would still be in the order of $15,000 p.a. (rather than 4414 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

CHRONOLOGY OF THE WRIGHT FAMILY

Date Activity Minister was Monday 23 Sept Wright family used as an example at Esti- in Canberra mates of families who could get AUSTUDY prior to the introduction of the AMT Wednesday 25 Sept Minister Newman puts out press release Perth/Adelaide saying that family would not be entitled to all of the DSS benefits as indicated Thursday 26 Secretary of DEETYA undertakes inqui- Adelaide ries—minute with draft letter and press release is faxed to Minister Thursday 26 Hansard transcript available in the afternoon Adelaide for verification purposes—discussion on letter and press release Friday 27 Secretary’s office faxes minute with amend- Adelaide/Melbourne ed letter and press release to Canberra Mon 30/Tuesday 1 Oct Office checks issue with clerk, he suggests Perth/Melbourne amendment to letter to ensure that it is circulated to Committee Wednesday 2 Oct Office gets the Department to email letter to Melbourne/Tasmania Ministerial Office Thursday 3 Oct Amended letter is emailed to Adelaide Adelaide Friday 4 Oct Letter signed by Minister Adelaide Monday 7 Oct Public Holiday Adelaide/Canberra Wednesday 9 Oct Letter is sent to Senator Tierney Canberra Wednesday 16 Oct Advice from Clerk that Senate would not Canberra hold Minister liable for giving misleading evidence

Differences Between the "Wright" Family and education expenses for two secondary students the Actual Family attending private schools. However the total actual means of both families was the same at $188,969. The Wright family is based on an actual family who applied for AUSTUDY this year and were Taxable Income tested under the Actual Means Test and assessed as Both the actual family and the Wright family had ineligible for AUSTUDY benefits. a combined parental taxable income of $12,323. Family Profile The split of taxable income for the Wright family The ages and the number of children were changed was 65% to the father and 35% to the mother for the Wright family to illustrate the range of which differed from the split in the actual family. benefits that might be available. Ages of the four The split was changed to illustrate the range of children in the actual family were 21, 20, 13 and benefits that might be available to a mother with 11. Ages of the three children in the Wright family such a low taxable income. were 16, 14 and 6 months. Therefore the real Financial Profile family had two children applying for AUSTUDY but in the Wright family only one child would be The actual family declared "Nil" business assets. eligible to apply for AUSTUDY. Therefore the total assets declared by the actual family comprised only $50,000 of personal assets. Education Expenses This was unrealistic and not typical of a family The actual family declared $7,700 worth of educa- tested under the Actual Means Test and so tion expenses which appeared to be understated as $120,000 worth of business assets were added to no expenditure was declared for the two younger the Wright family’s financial profile. The total students. The Wright family had $18,200 worth of assets for the Wright family were $170,000 worth Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4415 of assets comprising $120,000 business assets and of the Wrights in order to check the Social Security $50,000 personal assets. payments reportedly being made to them. In $107,098 expenditure incurred by both the actual handling this request, it became clear to me then family and the Wright family comprises $19,552 that the Wrights were not an actual case and also expenditure on the principle family home and that in some respects the Department’s calculations $87,546 on other investments/rental properties. of benefits were in error. These were the amounts declared by the actual I wrote to the Minister on 26 September to inform family on their AUSTUDY forms. her both of the status of the Wrights and the errors in calculations. I conveyed my apologies to her. The actual family and the Wright family had There was subsequent discussion with the Minister investment properties worth $500,000 but these and her office in the normal way. Slight adjust- were differently described. The real family has a ments were made to the letter to be sent to you. terrace house and the Wright family has a city The Minister’s office then checked with their clerk, apartment. who suggested a sentence be inserted to ensure the letter was circulated to the members of the Com- mittee. The Minister then wrote to you on 9 Department of Employment, Education, Training October advising the Committee of the correct and Youth Affairs situation. Senator John Tierney I also felt it appropriate to write to you direct since Chair both I and the Minister have overseas commitments Senate Committee on Employment, Education, next week when the Committee will meet and, Training and Youth Affairs Legislation although specialist officers will of course be pres- Parliament House ent, the relevant Division Head will be on leave. Canberra ACT 2600 The Minister has, however, informed me that she Dear Senator Tierney will be proposing to the Committee that if it wishes to meet to discuss this matter with her on return, I am writing to you direct on the matter of the then she would be happy to do so. "Wright family" because the fault clearly lies with the Department. It was an incorrect characterisation I wish to add my apologies personally and on of the case by the Department to the Minister behalf of the Department to the apology which which led Senator Vanstone in him to describe the Senator Vanstone made in her letter of 9 October Wright family as a specific example in the hearings and in the Senate yesterday. of the Committee on 23 September 1996. I am copying this letter to the Minister. I myself wrongly believed the Wrights to be an Yours sincerely actual case and, like the Minister, only became aware this was not so after the Committee hearings. D. A. Hollway Nonetheless, as Departmental Head, I accept 17 October 1996 responsibility for the mistake. In brief, the Department provided the Minister earlier in the year with a number of actual exam- Australian Senate ples of families well off but who, in the absence of Parliament House the Actual Means Test, were able to draw Canberra ACT 2600 AUSTUDY benefits. 16 October 1996 The Wright family case was also put forward as a Senator the Hon Amanda Vanstone realistic demonstration, in the Department’s view, Minister for Employment, Education, Training and of other benefits that could be obtained by a family Youth Affairs The Senate with certain characteristics in the absence of a Parliament House rigorous actual means test along the lines of that Canberra ACT 2600 applied to AUSTUDY. Dear Minister It was, as the relevant document prepared by the Evidence to Estimates Hearing Department and tabled in the Committee says, based on a real family. But certainly variations You have asked for advice on whether you could were made, not with the intention to fabricate or be held liable for giving misleading evidence to the mislead but to demonstrate the policy point the Employment, Education and Training Legislation Department was seeking to make in its advice to Committee in relation to the case of the "Wright the Minister. family". Following the Committee hearings, the Department You wrote to the Committee on 9 October 1996 of Social Security on 25 September sought details pointing out that the Committee is likely to have 4416 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 had the understanding, as you did, that the "Wright pared by Senator Vanstone attached. You family" is an actual family, and indicated that you were the bunny, Senator Ferris. I hope that in had been informed by the Department that a profile the next internal ballot in the South Australian of a family had been developed by making adjustments to an actual case. division of the Liberal Party you do not forget who to blame. In past cases the Senate Privileges Committee had made it clear that leaving a committee with an That happened on 23 September. At that incorrect impression as to the facts can be the Senate estimates committee hearing, Senator equivalent of giving misleading evidence. The Vanstone puffed herself up and said this: Committee has also made it clear, however, that a Minister is not guilty of contempt if the minister I would like to see the Wright family take their passes on incorrect information but corrects it when case public, whatever their proper name is. the error is discovered. This was the situation in the Senator Vanstone—I still would. I would diesel fuel tax case, reported by the Committee in like to see the real Wright family go public. its 46th Report in 1994. A minister had passed on at an estimates hearing incorrect information about Senator FAULKNER—We know there is a proposed tax, but subsequently corrected the no real Wright family. I will bet she regrets information in the Senate and before the Commit- these words, after they have been exposed as tee, although his first correction was in itself a complete phoney. She said this: incomplete. The Committee found that false I am told that there are plenty of others where they information was given, but the minister was not came from. aware at the relevant time that the information was correct, and no contempt was committed. The Apparently, not only are there not plenty of Senate endorsed the findings of the Committee. others where they came from but the Wrights On this precedent, the Senate would not hold you themselves do not even exist. Then, after liable for giving misleading evidence. Senator Ferris had put out her bodgie table Please let me know if I can be of any further and her press release as requested by Senator assistance. Vanstone, I was given a copy of this press Yours sincerely, release and the bodgie table by a recalcitrant member of the government. I was handed Harry Evans this—I cannot name sources—on 24 Septem- Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— ber. It was in the public arena but someone Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (3.12 had caught hold of it and said, ‘ Look at this.’ p.m.)—by leave—Senator Vanstone has I did have a close look at it and, like most blatantly and barefacedly misled both the members of the Labor Party, I can smell a Senate and the public on this matter. There is Liberal dead cat at 100 metres. no question about that. What we have from It was a bad mistake from Senator Vanstone Senator Vanstone today is the tabling of because the Social Security estimates were on documents and a chronology presented with the next day. I had spent a lot of the time at spin from the minister. But the facts of the the Social Security estimates— matter are this. On 23 September the Wright family was brought up at the Senate estimates Senator West—You did a good job. committee by virtue of a question from one Senator FAULKNER—And so did you, of Senator Vanstone’s staunchest factional Senator West, and the other Labor senators opponents, Senator Ferris. who were there. I actually asked at the Social I must say, Senator Ferris, I did not believe Security estimates whether the officers of the I would ever stand in this place and say that Department of Social Security could examine I feel sorry for you but I do because you are the figures in this bodgie table. They looked just another person who has been given the at it, pretty perplexed and stunned. Someone dump by Amanda Vanstone. You were the raced up from Senator Newman’s office and bunny who asked the question about the whispered to officers at the table—so it was Wrights. You were the bunny who put out the all terribly conspiratorial—and they took it on press release entitled ‘Millionaires on Govern- notice. ment Welfare Benefits’, with the bodgie When Senator Newman is able to say, ‘Oh Wright family document that had been pre- well, I found out about this’ it is because a Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4417 member of this opposition exposed this table ly $6. What did Senator Vanstone say it was? at the estimates committee and demanded that Two-hundred and twenty-nine dollars. It also the Minister for Social Security come back stated that the figure for child-care assistance with information about the bodgie Wrights. was wrong. That is the real chronology here. That is why—no other reason why. Just like What is the real politics of this? Let me say the situation we had in relation to Senator to the Senate that it is very clear. Senator Short’s and Senator Gibson’s conflict of Vanstone, you have misled this parliament, interest recently, it was exposed by a member this Senate and also the Australian people— of the Labor opposition. you have misled the public. What Senator On 25 September—what I am giving now Vanstone cannot answer is: at any stage after is the real chronology, not the chronology she had been exposed through questioning by with spin from Senator Vanstone—we had the the opposition did she do anything to redress Daily Telegraph, as an example, coming out this sort of headline that appeared in news- with this headline: ‘Millionaires On Welfare’. papers around Australia? Nothing, nothing. There were similar stories in many other You did absolutely nothing. newspapers right around Australia. This story says that Senator Vanstone ‘raised the family You have not tabled any letters that you in estimates’. Of course, the social security might have sent to the editors of newspapers. minister says that the family is still receiving You did not go on radio or television and massive welfare payments. correct the public record. You did nothing. Your very serious blunder is just another To be fair to Senator Newman, who is example that we have had in this parliament perhaps not one of the best ministers in the over the last fortnight of a minister seriously government—it is a pretty ordinary bunch and breaching John Howard’s much vaunted code it is a bit of a competition for last place of ministerial conduct. That code makes it between Senator Vanstone and Senator New- absolutely clear what you are required to do. man—she got onto this before Senator That guide to key elements of ministerial Vanstone. She put out what I would describe, responsibility states: I think, as a limited edition press release to correct the $229 parenting allowance mistake. Ministers must be honest in their public dealings and should not intentionally mislead the Parliament She stated in the limited edition press release or the public. Any misconception caused inadver- that ‘DSS cannot confirm that the family tently should be corrected at the earliest opportuni- actually exists.’ ty. Any answer which may be found to be incorrect should be corrected as soon as an error is found, I believe that Senator Newman probably did using the procedures of the House concerned. tell her colleague Senator Vanstone at about that time, probably on that day, that the story Did you, Minister Vanstone, come into this that was published in this newspaper and in chamber on any of the sitting days last week many others in this country was wrong and to correct the record? Did you? Did you come that they were both, along with all other in early this week to correct the record? No, members of the government, right up to their you did not. Did you at any time, since you necks in a colossal hoax. found that you had been involved in this massive hoax, attempt to correct the public Senator Vanstone says that 27 September record? What you did do was to deliberately was the day that she was told that the head- and barefacedly mislead both the Senate and line was wrong. Last night on radio on the the public—and you stand condemned for it. PM program, after being pushed to confess, she said, ‘It was a couple of days later.’ They Senator Knowles—Mr Deputy President, are Senator Vanstone’s own words. That was I raise a point of order. The Senate gave leave the same day, I think, that my own office to Senator Faulkner to make some comments received the reply to the questions that I in regard to this matter. Leave was not given placed on notice at the Department of Social for him to yell and scream and abuse a person Security estimates stating that the figure for directly across the chamber. I ask you to call parenting allowance was wrong; it was actual- him to order and ask him not to yell and 4418 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 scream and abuse people, including the Senator Knowles—You never worried minister, across the chamber. about all the people on social security in 13 The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Senator years. Faulkner was given leave to make a state- The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! ment; he is making a statement and is in Order on both sides! There are forms in this order. place for you to be able to correct statements Senator FAULKNER—What is Senator about you that you think are incorrect. I invite Vanstone’s defence on this issue? Her defence you to do that after Senator Faulkner has is that she sent a sneaky letter—which I really finished speaking if you so wish. Senator do believe should have, at a minimum, at the Faulkner is in order. I ask you, Senator very least, been a letter to every editor of Faulkner, to occasionally address your re- every paper in this country—to, I think, the marks through the chair. secretary of the estimates committee— Senator FAULKNER—Let me conclude Senator Carr—The chairman. my remarks by saying that some of us on this side of the chamber thought that in Senator Senator FAULKNER—To the chairman of Vanstone’s early days she was the wrong the estimates committee, indicating that there person in the wrong place at the wrong time; were some issues of concern for her. What I that poor old Senator Vanstone was just think senators have to consider here is the accident prone. But what you have been crassness of what Senator Vanstone has exposed here as is someone who is not only done—she created a fictitious family where a a bungler and an incompetent but also willing couple of kids were added to make it look to depend on fraud to make a fallacious point. like the entire social security system was That is what you have been exposed of. I say rorted. now, even for those who think you are only Senator Vanstone—Mr Deputy President, accident prone: you have become so accident I raise a point of order. I take offence at the prone in such an accident prone government last— that it is difficult to believe that Mr Howard Senator Bob Collins—That is not a point will be able to operate with you in this of order. portfolio much longer. Senator Vanstone—It is because an impu- I now make my second prediction of the tation has been made against me which is parliament. My last prediction recorded in the incorrect and I am asking for that imputation Hansard was that Senator Short would not to be withdrawn. The imputation, Mr Deputy last the distance. My prediction about you, President—if you have not spotted it, which Senator Vanstone, is that you have wreaked I am sure you have—was that I had fabricated so much damage in the areas of your portfolio that example. I have on numerous occasions responsibility that Mr Howard will have no given a statement to the estimates committee choice but to remove you from your portfolio and to this chamber that I did not fabricate responsibilities before the end of this parlia- that example. The department gave me the ment. example. Once it was indicated to me that I want to say just one other thing, and that there were problems, I took pains to correct is about the accusation that Austudy is rorted. that. Senator Faulkner, in referring to me in As senators would know, Labor corrected the his statement, is still asserting that I fabricated ability for conspicuously wealthy people to this example—that is, that I intentionally did escape means testing, on 1 January this year, it. I invite you, Mr Deputy President, to ask with funds to investigate actual cases. him to withdraw that imputation because, I want to make this point. The Wright given the number of times that I have come family would not have been investigated in here and said that that is not true, for him because the Wright family does not exist and to continue to say it is damned offensive. never did exist. This is an absolute disgrace, Senator Mackay—Imagine how the people Minister. Why don’t you consider doing the on social security feel. honourable thing and resign? Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4419

Senator VANSTONE (South Australia— tional. There has been no intentional Minister for Employment, Education, Training misleading on my part and, I frankly do not and Youth Affairs) (3.31 p.m.)—by leave— believe, on my department’s part either—but Mr Deputy President, under the standing order that is for another day. I do believe I could you were referring me to, which is 191, I get better service from my department in this wish to clarify something for the benefit of particular area, but I do not believe that the Senator Faulkner—who still misunderstands public servant sitting with me on the occa- what I have said, despite the fact I have said sions this matter has been referred to has it three times. I will not take long to do this. deliberately misled me. I really do not believe Mr Deputy President, you may or may not that. Nonetheless, what I have tried to indi- have been here yesterday. I think you were cate—and that was in my speech I have just here during question time today. You may or made—is that there is nothing intentional may not have seen the letter I wrote to the here. Senate estimates committee. On each of those occasions I said the same thing. Despite that, Senator Faulkner got up and Yes, my department made a mistake. They said a minute ago that I am willing to depend started with an actual family and made vari- on a fraud to make a fallacious point. What ations to it. I was given to believe that that he is saying is that, if you are willing to was an actual family. It is true that, because depend on a fraud, it implies that you know of the actual means test, those sorts of people it is a fraud. would now be deprived of Austudy. Senator Faulkner rightly pointed out that that test was That brings me to the point I made. I have introduced— not used the Wright family knowing it to be incorrect at all. Senator Faulkner further went Senator Bob Collins—Mr Deputy Presi- on and said that I had fabricated an example. dent, I rise on a point of order— I think that might have been the first time that Senator VANSTONE—I am coming to it. occasioned me to rise to my feet on a point Senator Bob Collins—What standing order of order and seek to correct him. allows Senator Vanstone to get up on her hind legs and start talking? If Senator Faulkner did not understand me, The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Standing let me repeat it in short form. The department order 191 says: has admitted the error that it made. It did not intend to mislead, and I did not intend to A Senator who has spoken to a question may again mislead. I have taken every opportunity since be heard, to explain some material part of the Senator’s speech which has been misquoted or then to get the facts right. As late as last misunderstood... night, more facts arrived. Therefore, for It is under standing order 191 that Senator Senator Faulkner to purport to make a speech Vanstone is speaking. on standards and to consistently pretend to misunderstand what I have said after having Senator VANSTONE—As I was saying, heard my explanations is a disgrace. that is the context in which the department made the variations to what was an actual The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—In case I am family. That is in the documents that have accused of misleading the Senate, standing been tabled. They were certainly not intending order 191 says: to mislead at all but to give an example of the sorts of people who this test was meant to A Senator who has spoken to a question may again get. On realising that it was not an actual be heard... family, the department notified me and steps were taken to correct a number of errors. I am reminded that there was not a question I have come in on all those occasions and, before the chair, but I think the intention of in short form, have clearly indicated that standing order 191 could be taken into ac- whatever has happened has not been inten- count in that way. 4420 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE fee, or perhaps in this case a mal-administration fee. Diesel Fuel Rebate In 1993-94 a major fraud of approximately $1.4 Senator PARER (Queensland—Minister million was discovered, which resulted in Customs for Resources and Energy)—During question commissioning consultants to review the rebate time on Thursday 10 October, Senator Lees database system and its claims processing practices. asked me a question concerning the eligibility It is instructive to consider the comments of the for diesel fuel rebate of the diesel which Australian National Audit Office on this process, leaked from storage tanks at the manganese and I quote: mine on Groote Eylandt, operated by the BHP "The contract did not stipulate that a written subsidiary GEMCO. I seek leave to incorpo- report be provided and Customs did not modify rate my answer in Hansard. its procedures for DFRS claims processing following completion of the $60,000 consul- Leave granted. tancy" The answer read as follows— The administration of this scheme by the previous Government was a saga of inaction and incompe- Senator the Hon Warwick Parer tence. Minister for Resources and Energy I am advised that it is not possible to determine During Question Time on Thursday 10 October whether all or part of the diesel lost was, or was Senator Lees asked me a question concerning the not, subject to a rebate claim without an extensive eligibility for diesel fuel rebate of the diesel which search of both Customs and GEMCO’s records, leaked from storage tanks at the manganese mine even then, a conclusive outcome may not result. on Groote Eylandt, operated by the BHP Subsidiary I am further advised by the Australian Customs GEMCO. Service that under the existing legislation, payment I am advised this leak was first confirmed in of rebate is based on intended use for eligible February 1995. It is not known when it com- activities. Recovery is possible where fuel is used menced, but apparently well before that date. A for other than eligible purposes. drilling program carried out by the company to Any prospect that the rebate is not recoverable is both identify the extent of the leakage and to not tolerable and will not be tolerated by this enable recovery of the spilled fuel has indicated Government. It is yet another testimony to the that of the order of 3 million litres escaped. incompetence of the previous Government. I have to say that I find it difficult to understand Minister Prosser initiated a review of the adminis- how a company can lose 3 million litres of diesel tration of the Diesel Fuel Rebate Scheme shortly without noticing. GEMCO was fined $45,000 by after taking responsibility for the portfolio. That the North Territory Government in March 1996 review was assisted by the efficiency audit of the after pleading guilty to a charge of unlawfully scheme which we tabled on 2 May of this year. permitting diesel fuel to enter the groundwater. Senators will also be aware that the Government Around 600,000 litres has so far been recovered by announced in the Budget that it will introduce the use of skimmer pumps. That diesel is being legislation, with effect from 1 January 1997, to cleaned and re-used for activities which would be tighten eligibility for mining industry rebated under eligible for the diesel fuel rebate. The company has the scheme and to ensure that only legitimate advised me, however, that it does not intend to claimants receive the rebate. claim the rebate, for reasons which I will go into in a moment. As part of the review the Minister will ensure that clarity is in the Act to make it clear that rebate is One of the many administrative issues we have had only paid when there is an eligibility. to deal with since coming to Government is the administration of the diesel fuel rebate scheme by In the meantime, the company is acting responsi- the previous Government. bility in relation to the recovery and use of the spilt fuel and I have requested regular progress reports Significant deficiencies were identified by the to ensure that his situation continues. Australian National Audit Office as long ago as May 1991. Over the following three years, the I thank Senator Lees for her question and look Labor administration established three separate forward to her support when the legislation comes interdepartmental committees and an Industry before the Senate. Commission Inquiry. The only response by the then Senator Warwick Parer Government was to legislate to reduce eligibility and to attempt to charge industry an administration 17 October 1996 Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4421

Logging and Woodchipping from Tasmania, allow the export of woodchips derived from rainforest species. Senator PARER (Queensland—Minister for Resources and Energy)—During question The areas agreed by the former Labor Government as being available for harvesting in Tasmania time, Senator Lees asked me a question on include some rainforest species. These areas of the conditions in regard to woodchip export forest are critical to the operations of the Tasman- licences. I have since received an answer ian veneer industry. from the Minister for Primary Industries and The Minister for Primary Industries and Energy has Energy, and I seek leave to incorporate that advised me that the woodchip export licences he answer in Hansard. issued last week under the new category for Leave granted. sawmill residues and silvicultural thinnings do not prohibit the export of woodchips derived from The answer read as follows— agricultural clearing, so long as that clearing has I am advised that the conditions imposed in wood- taken place in accordance with State and local chip export licences are determined by the Minister controls. for Primary Industries and Energy. East Timor The Minister is currently reviewing the conditions contained in 1996 woodchip export licences to Senator HILL (South Australia—Minister determine whether they are appropriate for future for the Environment)—I have had a reply licences. from the Prime Minister in response to part of The Minister has not yet considered applications for a question asked by Senator Bourne. Senator transitional woodchip export licences for the period Bourne asked: from 1997 to 1999. If the Indonesian President were to visit Australia, Senator Lees would be aware that it is the States would it be the government’s intention to maintain which are responsible for timber harvesting, not the consistency by inviting the head of state of our Commonwealth. Export licences do not give a right largest and closest neighbour to address a joint to harvest. meeting of both houses of the federal parliament in One of the conditions which will be included in all the House of Representatives? new licences is that exporters comply with all The response I have received is that the Commonwealth, State and Local Government laws, question of President Suharto’s program will including those protecting environment and heritage values. be looked at when we know that President Suharto will visit. I wish to emphasise how important it is for the Government to progress implementation of Region- ‘Wright Family’ al Forest Agreements because it is under these agreements that we will achieve the nationally Senator CROWLEY (South Australia) agreed aim of establishing a comprehensive, (3.37 p.m.)—I move: adequate and representative (CAR) forest reserve system in this country. That the Senate take note of the answers given by the Minister for Employment, Education, Minister Anderson has advised me that any licence Training and Youth Affairs (Senator Vanstone), to conditions will be consistent with the regional questions without notice asked today, relating to forest agreement process and agreements with the information Senator Vanstone provided to the States made under this process, such as Deferred Employment, Education and Training Legislation Forest Agreements, which give interim protection Committee concerning recipients of social security to high conservation values forests which may be benefits. needed for the reserve system. We are dealing here with a matter of the The Minister is particularly aware of the regard greatest gravity. The Minister for Employ- Australians have for rainforest values, and will ensure as far as possible that appropriate ment, Education, Training and Youth Affairs, protections are afforded to those values, consistent Senator Vanstone, in question time today and with the National Forest Policy Statement. just now in her statement gave us the chronol- Regional Forest Agreements are a far more appro- ogy of how long it took her to write to cover priate instrument for addressing environment herself, to explain that there had been an protection issues. error. But for far too long she waited. Even Licences issued by the former Labor Minister for then, she did not come into this Senate and Resources, under which exports currently take place give the explanation. 4422 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

It is clearly established that misleading a Any misconception caused inadvertently should be Senate estimates committee is equivalent to corrected at the earliest opportunity. misleading the Senate. I find it quite remark- The question which I think is critical is: what able that yesterday Senator Vanstone gave an range of information does that cover? Does it unreserved apology—which quite clearly cover the minister coming in here and apolo- indicates the seriousness with which she takes gising because she said something wrong or this matter, the substance of it—but she is misled the estimates committee and was quite cavalier about the timing and the pro- required to make it clear here? It might, but cess of what she had to do. ‘What’s a couple a common other reading of it would be that of days here and there,’ she said. you would make some effort to correct the A couple of days here and there are in mass of misinformation that went out in the direct breach of the ministerial guidelines for major dailies in huge headlines across this appropriate behaviour. Those guidelines were nation. There has been nothing to correct that put on the record in my question to Senator misinformation—nothing. Vanstone, and also by Senator Faulkner, but The people of Australia have been fed a they need to be said again: heap of lies for cheap political gain. In the Any misconception caused inadvertently should be process, a lot of people have been very corrected at the earliest opportunity. offended. Listen to what Mr Costello’s brother had to say about it. Listen to what Mr The minister says, ‘What’s a couple of days Harry Herbert had to say. Listen to what here and there.’ They are a direct flouting of people in receipt of those payments have to the guidelines for appropriate ministerial say about how they feel about being pilloried conduct, from which I quote: by Senator Vanstone’s very cavalier regard An answer which may be found incorrect should be for the truth. corrected as soon as the error is found. This is an outrageous misrepresentation of ‘At the earliest opportunity’ one guideline facts for cheap political advantage. It blatantly says; ‘as soon as it is found’ says the next. conflicts with the guideline requiring a Senator Vanstone knew very early on— minister to be truthful. The minister’s per- some of us have the gravest doubt that she formance blatantly conflicts with the minis- did not know from the word go—that this was terial guidelines requiring errors to be cor- a fake family. Departments do not make rected as soon as possible. It blatantly con- hypothetical families by attaching kids to real flicts with the guidelines requiring the correc- families. That is a totally political family con- tion of errors that have gone further than this struct. It is not what departments do, but they parliament. are encouraged to do it by their political This minister should resign instead of directors. ducking behind her department in a very If this hypothetical family was not designed cheap trick to spread the blame. Quite clearly, by the minister it was designed by the the blame rests entirely and utterly with the minister’s office. It is about time that the political players in this scene—the minister political bent on this matter is made clear. and her office. And it is a political bent, blaming the depart- Senator TIERNEY (New South Wales) ment. (3.42 p.m.)—I chaired the particular estimates What department takes over two weeks to hearings where this matter was considered. explain that they got it wrong? They knew on We actually looked at the document. The 26 September—when the secretary wrote to document looked totally plausible to us. the minister—that they had got it wrong. It It looked totally plausible to Senator Carr was two weeks after that before a letter at the time. I cannot remember him jumping arrived—and still no apology in this place, up and down and saying, ‘This is nonsense.’ not until a question was asked by Senator It looked totally plausible to Senator Crowley Carr. This is outrageous! It is interesting to at the time. As a former minister for family note that the ministerial guidelines say: services, she should know something about Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4423 family benefits. I cannot remember Senator Senator TIERNEY—I withdraw, but Crowley at the time asking,‘Hey, is this everyone knows the basic point that this correct?’ It looked totally plausible to all of former minister over here has made a state- us. ment. It was in the minister’s office and the Senator Bob Collins interjecting— department has said that it is out of the department. That is where the error lies. How Senator TIERNEY—It is interesting that on earth could the minister know what was Senator Bob Collins should interject. Senator happening within the department? All of us Collins knows a lot about ministerial respon- sitting there at the meeting accepted this on sibility. There was a major inquiry into the face value. administration of his department relating to the pay TV licences. It looked at where Let us go to the real basis of what is wrong ministerial responsibility starts and ends and, in the system. The example of the Wright as Senator Collins would remember, it con- family showed what happened in the adminis- cluded that a minister cannot possibly know tration, or the maladministration, of Austudy about what happens in his or her department under the previous government. One and a at every level. half years ago we had an inquiry into Austudy after the Ombudsman found 17 major flaws Senator Crowley made the outrageous in the administration of Austudy. We held a allegation that this information was fabricated major inquiry into it; we made 24 recommen- in the minister’s office. That is not true. As dations to change it. the chair of the committee, I have from Sandy Hollway, the secretary to the department, a Let me tell you about one of the recommen- letter, which is on the public record—it is a dations. In the past, when people put their pity that Senator Crowley is not here to name down for Austudy, they had to show correct her lie—and in which he admits— their taxable income. The Wright example— hypothetical as it now turns out—shows that The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! You people can get their taxable income way will withdraw that comment. down and get Austudy. What our report Senator TIERNEY—I withdraw that recommended was then implemented in the comment, Mr Deputy President. Her deliber- dying days of the Labor government. They ate misleading of the Senate— had not done anything about it for 13 years. Senator Patterson—What did she say? They would not have done anything about it until they were provoked by our committee, Senator TIERNEY—Senator Crowley said which broadened out the criteria, which did that this was fabricated in the minister’s show up people’s assets. office. I have here, and the minister has already tabled this letter— The result of that Liberal initiative is to better target Austudy, and the people who get Senator Bob Collins—On a point of order: it are the people who deserve to get it. That you cannot accuse a senator of deliberately is the basis of this debate. It is just an abso- misleading the Senate other than by way of a lute storm in a teacup for the opposition to substantive motion. come in here and claim that the minister has The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! You done something wrong when she, like the rest can do it, but it is disorderly. of us on this committee—like Senator Carr Senator TIERNEY—Right. It stands on and Senator Crowley—sat there through that the record and it is true. and believed that it was a real family. Now we know it is not a real family—it is a The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—You will hypothetical—the record has been set straight, withdraw it. and that is where the matter should lie. Senator TIERNEY—I thought you said it Senator CARR (Victoria) (3.47 p.m.)— was disorderly. Senator Tierney really does stretch the truth The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—It is disor- indeed. This proposition was put to me at the derly. Therefore, you will withdraw it. committee. As deputy chair I have got used 4424 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 to the Minister for Employment, Education, means test, were something only she was Training and Youth Affairs (Senator Van- responsible for. Yet, if you read the corres- stone) not being able to answer questions. For pondence, under the existing guidelines set night after night, we sat there asking her down by Labor, the so-called Wright family— questions and she referred those questions, on the original case, the one before she tried to each and every occasion, off to her officers. bodgie up the figures—was not eligible for On the case of student youth and language payments under Austudy. support programs, Senator Ferris—first cab It is enough to make it absolutely clear that off the rank—asked the big dorothy dix the actual means test was introduced by question. The dorothy dixer came in from Labor. It was announced in the 1995-96 Senator Ferris. There was the minister in all budget and came into effect on 1 January her glory with an answer that you would have 1996, before this government was elected. to write home about—a minister who seems The portfolio budget statement at the time to know absolutely nothing about her port- made it perfectly clear that, as far as the folio when asked about any other area except Labor government was concerned, there was this one. a responsibility about community concerns What do we find? We find that the minister that some well-off families could get Austudy goes on and on about it to the point where and use complex financial arrangements to her staff have graphs prepared, have all sorts circumvent Austudy income and assets tests. of extraordinary explanations. I say to you: I From 1 January 1996, before this government was surprised. I asked the question very was elected, certain categories of families, simply: ‘So we see this sort of thing being such as those with access to complex financial applied across all government departments, arrangements, were to no longer get Austudy can we?’ I asked the question, and she was unless household means were within allow- not able to answer, other than to say, ‘I did able limits. Who was responsible for that not assume for one minute that you think measure? Of course, it was the then Minister these people should be getting off with these for Schools, Vocational Education and Train- benefits. Of course, that is quite clearly the ing, Mr Ross Free. He happens to be Labor’s case. You cannot for one minute expect candidate in Lindsay. people to get off.’ Senator Vanstone owes a lot to Ross Free. We have heard a lot about this government It was Ross Free who introduced the measures on so-called welfare cheats. I asked the to tighten up arrangements so that people question this week: is it not the case that the could not abuse their wealth. However, Ross most conspicuous bunch of millionaires being Free never sought to attack people on social paid by the taxpayer are now on the govern- security benefits, to suggest millionaires were ment frontbench? I think that question stands. on welfare and there was some rorting going We have a fundamental principle here. This on, that all people entitled to benefits should minister was advised, according to the secre- not be getting them, or that somehow tary of her own department, on 26 September millionaires were taking advantage of the that there was an inaccuracy in her statements system. to the Senate. She had six sitting days to Without due regard to the proper ministerial come into this parliament and correct the guidelines, the minister sought to avoid her record as required under the ministerial responsibilities and to mislead this parliament responsibility guidelines set down by the but, above all else, to mislead the people of Prime Minister (Mr Howard). She failed to do this country and not correct the record on the so for six days. If it was not for the question basis of the huge media response from the asked by me, she probably still would have campaign organised by her, commencing with tried to get away with her actions. a dorothy dixer from Senator Ferris. It was a She tries to pretend that somehow the set-up from beginning to end. It took her actions she has taken in regard to tightening eight days to come clean, and then only after up Austudy, with the introduction of the she was exposed in this chamber as a result Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4425 of questions from the Labor opposition. It is proved in a royal commission to have lied? If clear to me that this minister has been—(Time you want to talk about morals and the way expired) ministers act, why do you not start on Mrs Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queensland) Lawrence, a woman who has been proved to (3.52 p.m.)—No wonder the ALP is treated as have lied and is still on the Labor Party front so irrelevant in society when you hear the bench? way they go on about this. I suggest that What about our own good Senator Bob Senator Crowley get out of the cafe society, Collins who, as one of my friends reminded away from the chardonnay socialists and the me, was the ‘minister for crises’? Everything chattering classes and move into the real he touched became a crisis. You might re- world—and listen to what people like those member the waterfront, first of all. in Lindsay want this parliament to do. I can Senator Patterson—He was going to assure you that they do not want this parlia- resign. ment wasting its time on this sort of thing day Senator IAN MACDONALD—He was in day out. going to resign if he did not fix it. By the The community voted for us overwhelming- date he nominated, it had got infinitely and ly at the last election because they want a immeasurably worse. And yet he stayed parliament that gets to work and does things. around. Then he went on to communications. They want a parliament that addresses things Remember the pay TV fiasco where he signed like unemployment, the high taxation that all a bit of paper without even reading it? He did Australians pay and the additional price of not even read it. He just signed it! goods we have to pay because of the water- Senator Forshaw—Mr Deputy President, front rorts. Those are the sorts of things for on a point of order: I know that in this period which Australians voted overwhelmingly to of discussion sometimes speakers do range get fixed up. widely; and I also note that Senator Macdon- The Labor Party are very embarrassed ald has not once yet attempted to defend the because most of the problems we now suffer minister’s disgraceful conduct. Could he in Australia arose during the time of the actually get back to the issue that is before Labor Party government of this land. They are the parliament rather than talk about all these not interested in the real issues at all. So what other irrelevant matters? do they do? They run around chasing rabbits The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! down burrows, looking at the shareholdings Senator Macdonald is in order. of very well qualified, intelligent, committed and honest Australians who occasionally Senator IAN MACDONALD—Thank you, make a clerical slip. Mr Deputy President. I appreciate Senator Forshaw getting up and interrupting me. It Opposition senators interjecting— always shows you are hitting the point if the Senator IAN MACDONALD— You can Labor Party start taking points of order. laugh. But get out there and ask real people. Thank you for that. I wear that as a badge of Get out of the unions; don’t go back and ask courage. You give me the courage to keep your union mates or sit around the Labor going because I know it is hitting home. Party headquarters and ask those sorts of Not only did Senator Bob Collins mess up people. Get out among the real Australians pay TV. He then took over Thomson radar. and see what they want us to do. See how Remember that? We almost had to have a absolutely sick and tired average, ordinary, royal commission into that. If you had any battling Australians are of the way you mob credibility and you wanted people to believe go on with all the irrelevancies that you what you are going on about, you would look continue to raise. at that. If you want to talk about ministerial respon- One of the previous speakers mentioned sibility, why do you not do something about something about ministers referring estimates people like Mrs Lawrence who has been questions to their officers. I sat through six 4426 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 years of it when none of the Labor ministers Senator Faulkner’s language but he did could answer a question. Senator Schacht will suggest that Senator Ferris was a bunny. I remember that—he could not answer a ques- will not suggest for a minute that Senator tion. He used to refer them all on. He did not Ferris was, as Senator Carr suggested, using have a clue. Of course, we accepted that a dorothy dixer question. because we wanted real answers. (Time ex- Senator Carr—Of course it was a dorothy. pired) Senator STOTT DESPOJA—Regardless Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- of whether or not it was a dorothy dixer tralia) (3.57 p.m.)—I am glad that Senator Ian question, the point is that I am afraid Senator Macdonald brought up the issue of the real Ferris assisted in the perpetuation of this myth world because this issue does affect people in and stereotype by putting out on 24 Septem- the real world. Looking at some of the people ber, as I recall—and I am happy to stand receiving Austudy benefits—those few able to corrected on this, Senator Ferris—a press get through the stringent eligibility criteria of release suggesting that 500 millionaire fami- the Austudy student financial assistance lies could be doing just what the Wright— scheme—we see that those on the independent rate receive 68 per cent of the poverty Senator Carr—Five thousand. line. But your average Austudy student or Senator STOTT DESPOJA—I stand cor- recipient is on 38 per cent of the poverty line. rected, Senator Carr—that 5,000 millionaire So the people we are talking about today in families in Australia had either inappropriate- receipt of payments under this scheme are ly accessed these benefits or could do so in people in the very real world that Senator the same way that the Wrights had been doing Macdonald alluded to. so. I suggest that the minister is correct in The Australian Democrats are concerned stating that she was labouring under the about this issue and this debate. The Minister impression that it was a real family—that the for Employment, Education, Training and Wright family was the right family and not Youth Affairs (Senator Vanstone) has misled the wrong family, as we suspected all along. this parliament. She misled the Senate esti- The Hansard record demonstrates that she mates committee. So implausible were some believed it was a true family. She said: of the examples given to the estimates com- We can make available an example—I do not know mittee, contrary to the suggestions by Senator if we have it now—of a family that I have been Tierney, that my office contacted the Clerk telling the department is incorrectly subtitled as the after the estimates committee hearing to find ‘Wright’ family—not their real name, of course. out what would be the case if a minister was As Senator Faulkner read out earlier, she then responsible for misleading Senate estimates, went on to say: because we knew that the facts presented to I would like to see the Wright family take their us were indeed dubious and quite spurious. case public, whatever their proper name is. The minister is responsible not only for So I will give the minister the benefit of the misleading the estimates committee and thus doubt that she did believe this was a true the Senate. She is guilty of tardiness by case. Of course, that still does not mitigate the failing to acknowledge and apologise earlier fact that she did mislead the parliament and for her mistake in this place and elsewhere, as misled the Senate estimates committee. But pointed out. But the minister is most guilty in regardless of that, she is indeed guilty of this debate of perpetuating the myth that there perpetuating this idea that people—and the are thousands of people out there who are Wright family case was used as an example— inappropriately accessing Austudy and that are rorting the Austudy system. millionaire families are inappropriately access- Senator Tierney referred to this case as ing Austudy. being entirely plausible. I have to say that We have yet to have any facts or figures when the three kids were read out, the presented to us as to how many might indeed family’s income was read out, the $1.1 be so-called rorting the system. I will not use million home was read out, the truck was read Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4427 out and then they threw in a Range Rover Senator PATTERSON (Victoria) (4.05 worth $40,000, that is when we all started to p.m.)—I think it was George Will who said think it sounded a little implausible. Senators that morality is the last refuge of the political- Crowley and Carr did mention to me infor- ly desperate. Well, that is the Labor Party, mally and at the Senate estimates committee and now the Democrats—the Laborcrats, as hearing that they were concerned that the I choose to call them—have got into bed with social security benefits did not add up, the them and they are now on the same band- example did not sound right. We were unable wagon. I would have thought, Senator Stott to get facts and figures relating to those Despoja, that you might have shown some families who are allegedly rorting the system. integrity in this, with your knowledge of The minister is guilty of misleading the education. parliament. She is guilty of taking her time Talk about going out into the real world; as and being tardy in responding. Even though, I go around Monash with the students who I as a member of the committee, I got my letter see as a member of the council for the past 18 on Tuesday morning, dated 9 October, not at years, time after time I am told stories of one stage during Tuesday did the minister students who are struggling who can identify make an effort. (Time expired) and know families where students are getting Austudy to which they are really not entitled. Senator Panizza—Mr Deputy President, I You know that; you have heard that and you raise a point of order. The last speaker, most probably know students who have been Senator Despoja, said at least five times that in that situation. There are people who reor- Senator Vanstone misled parliament, and the ganise their financial affairs— last time that she deliberately misled parliament. I think that is a reflection that should The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Senator be withdrawn. Patterson, address your remarks through the chair. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I am not Senator PATTERSON—There are people sure that I heard the comment ‘deliberately who can reorganise their financial affairs in misled’. It is a bit of a grey area but there such a way as to get Austudy and deprive have been rulings previously that it is in order other young people who really ought to get to use the word ‘misled’ in that context, but Austudy. It does not behove Senator Stott it is not in order to use the term ‘deliberately Despoja to come in here and join these misled’ because there is an implication of political desperadoes on the other side. I have lying. As I said, it is a grey area but that has not heard a better description of the Labor been the ruling on previous occasions. Party than that of Will for many years. They Senator Panizza—On a further point of had 13 years of slimy, backdoor deals, of order: I believe I heard ‘deliberately whiteboards, piggeries, lies and amnesia. misleading the Senate’. I heard it. I would We only have to remember the sort of stuff like you to check the tape, come back to the that went on about the Marshall Islands. We Senate and report what was said. If that is only have to remember the stuff that went on correct, I want it withdrawn. about Dr ‘I can’t remember’ Lawrence, who The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I think it is could not remember a thing, yet eight of her easier to ask Senator Stott Despoja rather than colleagues could remember having discussed check the tapes. a petition before it went into the parliament. But she seemed to have amnesia. She is still Senator Stott Despoja—On the point of sitting on the opposition’s front bench. She order: if I did say that, I will withdraw that was not taken to task. It took ages for Mr term. I also remind Senator Panizza that my Keating to come to the point that he had to name is Senator Stott Despoja. get rid of Mrs Kelly over the whiteboard The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I am not issue. sure that the comment was used but it if was The Labor Party has the gall to come in used, it has been withdrawn. here and condemn a minister who was com- 4428 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 plying with the standards. For the record, I Senator SCHACHT—During question time should read the letter that was sent to Senator today in answer to a number of questions, Tierney because Senator Crowley said that Senator Vanstone at one stage said that I had she concocted this in her office. misled the Senate in a case which was re- Senator Stott Despoja interjecting— ferred to the privileges committee. I want to put the record straight. The finding of the Senator PATTERSON—No, I did not say privileges committee was unanimous. that you did, Senator Stott Despoja. I said Senator Conroy—Unanimous? Senator Crowley did. You said she had misled the parliament. Senator SCHACHT—It was unanimous, made by all parties represented. The finding Senator Stott Despoja did not once say that on this particular matter, which Senator the department had admitted that they had Vanstone went to great length to use as an given the information to Senator Vanstone. excuse for her own terrible behaviour, was She has written to the chairman and she has that the committee determined it should not come in here and made an explanation. She find that a contempt had been committed in has explained the situation. The head of the respect of any of the matters referred to it by department, Mr Hollway, writes to Senator the Senate. That was the unanimous finding Tierney as chairman of the committee, stating: of the 46th report of the privileges committee I am writing to you direct on the matter of the of the Senate when the issue of the diesel fuel Wright family because the fault clearly lies with rebate legislation in the 1993 budget was the department. referred to the Senate. Another misleading I repeat: the fault clearly lies with the depart- aspect of the remarks made by Senator ment. Senator Stott Despoja does not want to Vanstone in defending herself today, quite admit that. Senator Crowley does not come in inadequately, though, is that— here and say that. Senator Crowley says that Senator Patterson—Mr Deputy President, Senator Vanstone made it up in her office. I raise a point of order. Senator Schacht is out But Mr Hollway said that the fault clearly lies of order, as he is now debating the issue. He with the department. is not entitled to do that under standing Senator Vanstone came in and apologised orders. I ask you to call him to order and to the Senate. She has done the right thing, draw him to a close. and yet we have wasted all this time when we The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I think he could have been debating the legislation used three words which were debatable but before the house. We are discussing this issue other than that he is in order. because they failed to tell the public and the Senator SCHACHT—Mr Deputy Presi- parliament the truth. The departmental head dent, on the point of order: there were a has said that it was an error in the department number of remarks made by Senator Vanstone and they take full responsibility. I know that in referring to the episode that is reported on the buck stops with the minister, and the in this privileges committee report. She made minister has come into the parliament to a number of remarks that I believe are quite apologise. To misrepresent the situation, as misleading particularly about me in view of has been done this afternoon, I find appalling, this report and the circumstances surrounding totally inappropriate and unacceptable. it. I am now correcting for the record what I Question resolved in the affirmative. believe were the proper circumstances at that particular time. PERSONAL EXPLANATIONS The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—You have Senator SCHACHT (South Australia) leave to do so and, as far as I am aware, you (4.09 p.m.)—I wish to make a personal are not debating the issue. explanation, as I claim to have been misrep- Senator SCHACHT—Senator Vanstone resented. was misleading in that she compared her own Leave granted. circumstance about providing information to Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4429 the estimates committee. As I recollect, the had got something wrong. I had already dates on her particular episode between when indicated that I would be reporting back. she spoke at the estimates committee on 23 Within a week the matter had been dealt September of this year and until she rose in with and the apology had been given. The the Senate to apologise and clear the air was report unanimously said that there was no on 16 October: that is, three full weeks. breach of privilege, including misleading the Senator Patterson—Mr Deputy President, Senate. There is a world of difference of I raise a point of order. Senator Schacht is dealing with it in a week compared with debating what Senator Vanstone said about dealing with it over the last three and a bit what she did. He can explain what she said weeks, as Senator Vanstone has or has not about what he did, but I think he is out of done. I believe she has been misleading in order to be debating what she said about what trying to compare her case with the case that she did. I ask you to call him to order. He is I dealt with before the estimates committee on debating the issue. the 46th report. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—At this stage Senator O’Chee—Mr Deputy President, I do not consider that Senator Schacht is Senator Schacht has now clearly stepped debating the issue. He is using a lot of edi- outside the bounds of the standing order torial comment as he goes along, but I do not under which he claimed to be misrepresented. think he is debating the issue. I call Senator He is launching into an attack on the minister. Schacht. Senator Schacht knows what the That is quite clearly outside the ambit of the rules are. standing order. Senator SCHACHT—Mr Deputy Presi- Senator Conroy—But deserved. dent, I probably would have finished by now except for those two irrelevant points of order Senator O’Chee—That is a childish and from Senator Patterson. silly interjection, as most of yours are, Sena- tor Conroy. He should be directed to cease; There was a period of three weeks between he should also be directed that if he wants to when Senator Vanstone spoke at the estimates flagrantly violate standing orders, he will be committee and when she apologised to the brought to account. Senate yesterday. There was also a period up to 9 October of some 16 days. The period in The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Had you dispute that was raised and referred to the concluded, Senator Schacht? privileges committee in this report was less Senator SCHACHT—Mr Deputy Presi- than one week. The estimates committee met dent. I had all but concluded. I had made the on 26 August, where I gave information two points about the misleading nature of the unintentionally to the estimates committee dates and that I had misled the Senate when which was found in this report. The next item this report, unanimously agreed to by all was on the following Monday when the parties, said that I had not breached any Senate met and Senator Ferguson asked a privilege, any orders of the Senate. I think my question on 31 August. case stands very solidly compared with the There was discussion about a question to terrible position of Senator Vanstone. I have Senator McMullan, an answer and some nothing further to say. comment. On 26 August, when Senator ATSIC: SPECIAL AUDITOR Ferguson was raising the issues that became a matter for this privileges report, I also said Senator HERRON (Queensland—Minister that if there was any matter here I was going for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander back to check with my department and would Affairs) (4.16 p.m.)—I have received a letter report back in one week when this estimates from KPMG in relation to their audit report committee would sit again. I put it on the into ATSIC funded organisations. In the letter, record that I would be reporting back on all which I wish to table, KPMG corrects some matters relating to the issues raised in case I figures contained in the report. 4430 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

In the report, the auditor refers to 130 This policy is a downpayment on the Coalition organisations ‘with the potential for not fit Government’s commitment to meet the require- and proper’ classification, and ‘additionally, ments of veterans living in rural and remote areas. 184 organisations requiring immediate and Of the 337,000 veterans, war widows and depend- close monitoring’. The auditor has informed ants currently entitled to health care through my Department, over 31 per cent live outside the major the Office of Indigenous Affairs that there metropolitan areas. It is in areas with smaller was an overlap of 82 organisations in these populations and the remote locations where the categories. problems are greatest. They often have none of the The figure of 60 organisations ‘not fit and services the rest of us take for granted. proper’ does not change. The total of other In addition, although health care services may be organisations of concern has been adjusted lacking close to home, veterans may have consider- from 314 to 232. In the course of debate last able difficulty in travelling to the larger centres to receive appropriate care. Thursday and in answers to questions from Senators O’Chee, Troeth and Ellison, I used The majority of veterans are now aged over 70 years. This ageing is creating further demand for a the original figures provided in the report. I wider range of health care and support services. table the auditor’s letter of correction. The veteran community also includes many younger veterans who served in Korea, Malaya, Vietnam MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS and in more recent engagements including UN peacekeeping missions. Their needs and those of Health Policy for the Veteran carers and indigenous veterans are quite different Community in Rural and Remote Areas to those of older veterans. Senator WOODS (New South Wales— This Government is committed to honouring the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for debt of gratitude owed to those who fought for Health and Family Services) (4.17 p.m.)—I today’s freedom. Rural Australia was a great source seek leave to make a statement on behalf of of recruitment. It is an important goal of this Government to ensure equity of access and entitle- the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs (Mr Bruce ment to all veterans regardless of where they live. Scott) relating to health policy for the veteran community in rural and remote areas, to This Health Policy for the Veteran Community in Rural and Remote Areas goes a great distance in incorporate the statement in Hansard and to achieving this goal. It sets out take note of the statement and a related · the broad strategic directions and strategies to document. build on and enhance programs to target services Leave granted. better; The statement read as follows— · it outlines initiatives to specifically addresses service gaps, and Madam President, it is my privilege to introduce a special policy for Australia’s veterans- a Health · it builds in better feedback and planning mecha- Policy for the Veteran Community in Rural and nisms to meet the needs of the veteran communi- Remote Areas. ty. Coming from an electorate in Queensland—around In short, this policy spells out what we can do to three times the size of Victoria, I know only too make health care services easier to get to, to well that services in rural and remote Australia are promote awareness of preventive care measures and often missing or many miles away. to improve our communications with the veteran community and health care providers. The motivation for developing this policy stems from this Government’s election commitment to The policy looks to the total health service delivery ensure the needs of people in rural and remote framework including Commonwealth and State Australia are not forgotten. governments, private and community-based organisations, and looks to capitalise on opportunities for Unfortunately often what makes good policy sense joint arrangements with them. in a metropolitan context is impractical and un- This policy is about what is achievable and realist- workable in the country. Government must take ic. It comes up with practical solutions that we can account of this fact and frame policy accordingly. implement now within budget constraints. It flags This is what the people of Australia who elected what we can do in future to enhance provision of us, especially those in rural and remote areas, health care for rural and remote veterans. It is, expect us to do. however, just the first stage. Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4431

Underpinning the development of this policy are condition requires him or her to be accompanied wide ranging consultations with veterans, war to travel for treatment. widows, doctors, nurses, other health and communi- At the local level: ty care providers, carers, ex-service organisations and others in Rockhampton, Thursday Island, . Community Care Seeding Grants will be used in Roma, Alice Springs, Bunbury, Geraldton, Cobar, Portland and Belmont in rural Victoria to evalu- Bourke and Echuca. ate trials of community transport models. Consultations made clear that, veterans living in Health education and preventive care are important rural and remote areas cannot and generally do not in improving veterans’ and war widows’ quality of expect to have the same level and range of locally life and reducing the need for more intensive health available health care services as people who live in care. cities. The policy acknowledges this reality, but, Among the proposed national initiatives are: through better focusing and targeting of programs . The development of national health promotion and services, I believe the veteran community can products including a video to assist in the early still expect the best possible deal. detection and management of prostate disease, Outlined in this policy are national, state and local materials to assist management of chronic health initiatives, many of which are pilots, testing conditions such as dementia, arthritis and back innovative approaches to service delivery and care. information provision. These have the potential to At state and local levels: become the basis of practical, cost-effective on-the- ground solutions right across the country. . Veterans’ health promotion activities and Quality of Life Education programs will be arranged in I would now like to highlight a few examples of rural areas; some of the initiatives. . A pilot walking program will be developed in The veteran community told us that access to Burra, South Australia, for veterans and local health care and support services is an issue of school children, and concern. . Through the Telefriend Program, isolated or At a national level my Department will: housebound veterans in South Australia will be . Establish joint arrangements with State Govern- encouraged to become more involved through ment Health Departments and individual provid- links to other veterans across the state. ers to extend visiting specialist schemes, and To improve the planning and delivery of my increase visits by allied health professionals. Department’s services, we need to improve our . Extend provision of medical services through the knowledge of the local needs and circumstances of Royal Flying Doctor Service (RFDS) including: the veteran community in different rural and remote - links between RFDS psychological services areas. and the Vietnam Veterans’ Counselling Ser- Our strategy is to extend the country visits and vices and outreach programs and identify opportunities for - providing Annual Health Care Plans by RFDS joint arrangements such as one-stop shops with medical practitioners for veterans. other government and community organisations. and at local and state levels: Specifically, we will: . the Rural Medication Review Program in Bunda- . Conduct a program of teams made up of my berg, Roma and Wagga Wagga to improve Department’s officers to consult with the local pharmaceutical use and reduce adverse drug veteran community, health providers, community reactions will be expanded and and government organisations. These teams will develop local strategies and provide information · we will extend the rural psychiatric service about the full range of the Department’s services. which currently operates in Dubbo to other areas For example during 1996 and 1997, these teams in NSW. will visit Thursday Island, Bamaga, Miles, Convenient and affordable transport is obviously Cunnamulla, Alice Springs, Marrawah and important for access to services, especially if those Mallacoota. services are not available locally. . Additional Veterans Advice Network services Nationally, I have asked my Department to: will be established. . Ensure that guidelines for long distance travel for Another major issue to emerge was information or treatment are administered to take account of the lack thereof. Veterans and war widows are not personal needs, and always aware of their health care and support . Provide financial assistance to the accompanying entitlements and nor are their health care providers. person, where a veteran or war widow’s medical To address these concerns, at the national level: 4432 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

. An information package about entitlements and where their conditions may be exacerbated by health services will be published. isolation. . A rural section will be included in the Specifically the National Centre for War Related Department’s national newspaper for veterans, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder will be used to Vetaffairs, and enhance care for veterans in rural and remote areas Locally: by . A pilot three-day Veterans Information Expo will · researching the care needs and effectiveness of be conducted in Mackay. PTSD treatment; Through the consultations we found that there are · arranging continuing education seminars and groups within the veteran community with special workshops for providers, for example, in Tam- needs including Aboriginal and Torres Strait worth and Armidale; and Islander veterans, veterans with war-related stress · further developing access arrangements to PTSD or mental health conditions, frail aged veterans and treatment programs including for veterans in the carers. Swan Hill and Mildura. Many frail aged veterans and war widows suffer from chronic illness or high levels of disability and Satellite PTSD programs will be introduced for the if unable to live independently they often are veteran community in country New South Wales. obliged to move to a hostel or nursing home a great Carers play a major role within the veteran com- distance from family and friends. munity and require support and access to respite At a national level the Department will: care. Many veterans and even some of the carers themselves, suffer from chronic illnesses and . Ensure an appropriate proportion of funds for the disabilities. Residential Care Development Scheme, Com- munity Care Seeding Grants Program and the To help this group: Joint Venture Scheme are directed to their . A dementia training program for carers in the residential and community care needs, veteran community will be provided in 30 rural and at the local level: and remote centres, . A report will be prepared on the barriers and and at the local level: opportunities which may affect the veteran community in achieving equitable allocations of . the co-ordination of respite service in the Grafton residential services in rural and remote areas of region in NSW will be improved to enable South Australia. veterans, their carers and health professionals to call one number to access all residential and in- I am particularly concerned about the needs of home respite places in the region, and Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander veterans who made a significant contribution to the defence of Health care providers in rural communities play a Australia during World War Two. In the Torres critical role, and are often the major source of Strait alone, we know that almost every male of health service information for veterans. It is enlistment age signed up. essential they are given the most appropriate support. Among other national initiatives, I have asked my Department to: Providers are often not fully aware of Veterans’ Affairs services and entitlements. My strategy is to . In the first place identify them and then raise assist them in giving the best possible quality care awareness among Aboriginal veterans of their including better use of information technology. A entitlements through contact with and provision recent survey of the Department’s health care of information to Aboriginal organisations and providers found nearly 70 per cent have an office communities. computer and 17 per cent have access to the For veterans in the Torres Strait, we will: Internet. At a national level, my Department will: . improve access for veterans to Rehabilitation . Provide information on the Department’s Internet Appliance Program items, and home page and through its publications to . financially support the Queensland Department increase awareness of veterans’ health issues and of Health in establishing a podiatry service on health care services. Guides will also be provided Thursday Island to assist those veterans with to other sources of information. chronic illnesses such as diabetes. . Advise LMOs about elements of the Repatriation Veterans who suffer from dementia, war-related Comprehensive Care Scheme and Annual Health stress and other mental health conditions very often Care Plans for veterans and other changes to have an especially difficult time in getting the DVA arrangements through a Departmental news services they need in rural and remote locations, sheet to be faxed regularly. Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4433

Ex-service organisations too, provide valuable veteran community . By focusing our attention and support to the veteran community, including home thinking about how solutions can meet local and hospital visiting, pensions and advocacy advice problems, we can do more. and a range of aged care services. In concluding, Madam President, I want to stress Some rural sub-branches of ex-service organisations that the policy highlights what we know we can are now closing as membership declines and others proceed with now and flags future plans. It repre- are reporting increased pressure on their welfare sents the first phase of a long-term strategy. officers to provide information and advice on health and aged care matters. Over recent years these I want to take this opportunity to thank my parlia- organisations have been supported through grants mentary colleagues Trish Worth, Kay Elson, Mal programs. This support will be extended by: Brough and Sharman Stone who so willingly became involved in the consultations with the . Increasing training provided to ex-service organi- veteran community and their health care providers sation personnel under the Training Information in Western Australia, New South Wales and Program in rural and remote areas, and Victoria. I also want to thank the local members for . Reviewing and amending guidelines for grants areas as far flung as Thursday Island and Alice programs to ensure an appropriate focus on rural Springs. and remote areas. Most of all, I want to express my warmest appreci- Initiatives at the local level include: ation to the many veterans, war widows, doctors, . Supporting the development of new day clubs in nurses and other health care providers in the the South Coast and Hunter Valley regions in isolated regions of Australia who extended their New South Wales. hospitality to all those people involved in the In terms of housing, many veterans and war consultations and who gave us such valuable widows told us that they want to live independently insights. in their local communities for as long as possible. This document is about finding ways to improve As veterans age, their housing needs change and the lives of veterans and war widows who live in their homes may need alterations, repairs or rural and remote Australia by giving them practical maintenance to enable them to continue to live information, better access to health care services independently. and innovative solutions to some specific problems. In this area, my Department will: Madam President, I commend this Health Policy . In conjunction with Westpac, examine better for the Veteran Community in Rural and Remote options for people living in rural and remote Areas to the Senate areas to take up their entitlement to Defence Service Home loans to enable modifications. Senator WOODS—I table the statement by the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs and a Locally: related document entitled Health policy for . A project in the Goldfields region of Western the veteran community in rural and remote Australia will be established in association with a community organisation, to provide regular areas, and move: telephone contact at times of special need, such That the Senate take note of the statement and as on discharge from hospital, for those living document. alone, and Senator WEST (New South Wales) (4.18 . A project on home safety and security in the Wodonga area to provide veterans with an p.m.)—In speaking to this motion, I would assessment of risks in their homes. Advice will like to congratulate—as Mr Martin, our be given on preventive action to reduce the shadow minister in the other place, did yester- likelihood of home accidents and to enhance day—the Minister for Veterans’ Affairs (Mr veterans’ ability to live independently. Bruce Scott) for this document entitled Health Financial independence can have a major impact on policy for the veteran community in rural and veterans and war widows’ general well-being. remote areas. While it is a very glossy docu- Many are not fully aware of their entitlements and ment, it also mentioned some very good find the assessment process complex and difficult. I have asked my Department to investigate ways of things. A lot of hard work has gone into the improving this situation by looking at possibilities formulation of this document both by mem- such as providing a single point of contact for bers of the lower house and by the Depart- veterans about these matters. ment of Veterans’ Affairs, which has a staff This policy shows how the government can expand of very dedicated and caring people to look its role in this area to better meet the needs of the out for the needs of the veteran community. 4434 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

This is an area where, as much as we can, In this document, the minister has brought we should take a bipartisan approach to the together all of the processes that the depart- formulation of policy and the enaction of that ment is involved in, which is a very good policy, because this is a group of people who thing. It looks at the one-stop shops to bring have made a significant contribution to this all the services together and it looks at a country. For those who are actual veterans, number of projects that are going to be they have laid their lives on the line; for those piloted, which I think is an ideal way for the who are the widows or widowers of deceased department to proceed. Many of us will view veterans, they have had to live with and care with great interest the outcome of these pilot for someone whose life has probably been programs. shortened by their military service. I think it The area of transport, particularly now with is very important that we continue to recog- the Second World War veterans becoming nise the contribution that has been made by quite elderly, is becoming more of an issue. them. The veterans will all be very close to the age The veteran community is an ageing com- of 70 or over—just doing some quick mental munity. The bulk of the veterans now are arithmetic—and many are approaching the Second World War veterans, but the Korean age of 80. I know that, with my own parents and Vietnam veterans are also, unfortunately, who are aged 75 and nearly 80, transport is ageing. As someone who was a contemporary becoming an issue for them living in a rural of the Vietnam veterans, it is coming up to 25 community. If they require treatment or years next year since the last lot of our troops assessment in a centre in Sydney, which has were brought out of Vietnam. It does not happened, they are no longer able to drive seem that long ago. themselves there. There are dependent upon Senator McKiernan—We are getting old. my brother to do the driving and to provide Senator WEST—We are getting old. Of the transport for them. However, there are course, if we are getting old, it means that many veterans who live in smaller communi- those people who are our peers are also ties that do not have that family support there getting old. for the provision of transport. This document is calling for more flexibility within the This document has identified very clearly repatriation transport arrangements. the rural and remote areas of Australia where the population of veterans are located. This is The veterans have asked that their support a very important issue for the department in needs be taken into account when they travel its delivery of services. There are 337,000 to metropolitan centres for extended periods people currently entitled to health care of treatment. Often the veterans will need through the Department of Veterans’ Affairs, somebody to accompany them on these visits. and 31.6 per cent of those people live outside These issues are highlighted in the national the metropolitan area. and state and local initiatives outlined in this When you look at the statistics of where the statement. One of the initiatives is to use the rest of the community live in Australia, the community care seeding grants program in veteran community is different in composition Belmont to evaluate trials of two community in its patterns of living. Most Australians in transport models to assess their suitability for this country live in metropolitan areas on the general application in rural Victoria. That is eastern seaboard, but a lot of veterans have the standard of programs proposed to be chosen to move to or to stay in the country undertaken as pilots. That is a very good areas. That may reflect their age, because a thing. lot of them are older and have gone back to This statement outlines that the department those areas. It may also reflect some of the is prepared to look at the guidelines under soldier settlement schemes that were put in which the programs are administered and place after the war ended. But it does provide ensure that they take into account the needs the department with a challenge to meet in its of these rural and remote veterans in terms of provision of health services. the access and administration of these ser- Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4435 vices. The department is also prepared to enhance awareness of culturally appropriate provide some financial assistance to the services to meet the needs of indigenous accompanying person, in cases where a veterans. For many years indigenous veterans veteran or war widow’s—and I suggested it have talked about the maltreatment and should be widowers as more women who discrimination they received after they were have served die and their spouses require discharged from the armed forces. I think this assistance—medical condition requires him or goes some little way towards redressing the her to be accompanied to travel for treatment traumas and discrimination they suffered and and while the veterans is admitted for treat- to make sure that they are able to have what ment in a centre away from their area. It is is rightfully theirs. the very humane programs and plans that are being put in place that attract my attention I note with caution that there is no new and highlight to many people the very valu- funding announced for these policies. They able results that will arise out of this policy are to be funded from the recurrent DVA statement. I think the minister is to be con- budget which has been subject to an across gratulated on this policy statement. the board two per cent reduction in running costs. That amounts to about $20 million over Many pilot programs are going to be con- four years. Administrative efficiency savings ducted. I wish all of those involved in them of $48.5 million over four years must be well. This is a good statement which outlines absorbed by the department. This is the code the direction that needs to be taken, the need for the slashing of spending. I desperately for one-stop shops and the needs of people hope that this slashing of spending is not living in rural and remote areas. The state- going to impact adversely on the programs ment also looks at the need for counselling that are being outlined. (Time expired) for Vietnam veterans which is very important. It also recognises the effect of post-traumatic Senator O’CHEE (Queensland) (4.28 stress disorder and post-traumatic stress p.m.)—I think the Minister for Veterans’ syndrome which, for many years, was ig- Affairs (Mr Scott) should be congratulated on nored. We did not want to accept that some this statement. I think it is important to note veterans suffered some sort of trauma and that changing demographics in Australia over stress following their service and the horrific the last 10 or 15 years have meant that many situations they faced. This statement recognis- of our veterans who may have lived and es that there is a need for post-traumatic stress worked in city areas have moved to areas counselling and support and that is to be outside capital cities. That is why it is import- commended. ant that the government has done what it has There is also a recognition in the statement done, which is to make the statement and that many Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island- make it very clear the way in which it intends ers made a significant contribution to the to deal with the issue of veterans who live in defence of Australia during World War II. regional and country Australia. These gentleman are very elderly and many I will give senators some examples of the live in small and isolated communities in the sorts of problems that we are facing in terms north and north west of this country. They are of delivering services to veterans. Look for probably not aware of their entitlements, example at the state of Queensland. Senator under the Department of Veterans’ Affairs Hogg would be aware of the number of Act, to support, medical care and attention. retirees from both Brisbane and interstate who This statement is specifically designed to have moved to the Gold Coast, the Sunshine raise awareness among Aboriginal veterans of Coast, Hervey Bay or Cairns and the diffi- their entitlements through contact with, and culty in providing services to them, be they provision of information to, Aboriginal or- medical or other services. That is why what ganisations and communities. Training will the government has done is very important also be provided to Department of Veterans’ and why we need to focus on getting some Affairs staff in consultation with ATSIC to real outcomes. 4436 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

One of the problems we had with the Employment, Education and Training Legislation previous government was that they made a lot Committee of noise about looking after veterans but Substitute members: when it came to delivering services, particu- Senator Evans to substitute for Senator larly to veterans outside the capital city areas, Crowley on Wednesday, 23 October 1996. it did not happen. One of the consequences of Senator Allison to substitute for Senator Stott having a Minister for Veterans’ Affairs such Despoja for the inquiry into the provisions of as Minister Scott who lives outside a capital the States Grants (Primary and Secondary city is that he is acutely aware of the prob- Education Assistance) Bill 1996. lems that are being experienced. I think Mr Participating member: Senator Faulkner for the Scott deserves the congratulations of both 1996-97 estimates only. sides for what he has done. I seek leave to Employment, Education and Training References continue my remarks. Committee Leave granted; debate adjourned. Discharged: Senator Colston The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT Appointed: Senator O’Brien. (Senator Calvert)—Order! It being 4.30 p.m., Substitute member: Senator Allison to substitute for Senator Stott Despoja for the inquiry into the Senate should proceed to general business. private and commercial funding aspects of With the concurrence of the Senate, I suggest government schools. that we conclude the tabling of documents Finance and Public Administration References first. Committee Leave granted. Appointed: Senator Bishop. DOCUMENTS DOCUMENTS Auditor-General’s Reports Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Reports Nos 11 and 12 of 1996-97 Commission The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT Debate resumed from 15 October, on (Senator Calvert)—In accordance with the motion by Senator Cooney: provisions of the Audit Act 1901, I present That the Senate take note of the document. the following reports of the Auditor-General: Senator McKIERNAN (Western Australia) Report No. 11 of 1996-97—Performance (4.32 p.m.)—It is a privilege to stand here audit—Follow-up audit—The export market today and speak to this document, although I development grants scheme—Australian Trade must say at the outset of my contribution that Commission I do have great concerns about the case that Report No. 12 of 1996-97—Performance was used to establish reasons why the Human audit—Follow-up audit—Data-matching— Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission Department of Social Security ought to make significant recommendations to the government about the removal of any COMMITTEES form of age discrimination from the Public Membership Service Act 1922. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT My concerns were brought about by the fact (Senator Calvert)—The President has re- that the complaints, which culminated in this ceived letters from party leaders seeking report to the parliament, were made by four variations to the membership of committees. airline pilots who were compulsorily retired from their positions as airline pilots because Motion (by Senator Woods)—by leave— they had reached the age of 60 years. If there agreed to: is an occupation in this country which should That senators be discharged from and appointed have extremely high standards of safety to committees as follows: applying to it, perhaps even age limits, I think Economics References Committee the occupation of airline pilots might be the Discharged: Senator Carr. one that we should remove last from the list Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4437 of occupations that have age barriers and age all age barriers that are in place in our soci- limits attached to them. ety. It is an extremely stressful occupation. I put on the record that I chaired the Joint Many senators in this place would have sat in Select Committee on Certain Aspects of the the cockpit in light aircraft. I suggest that all Operation and Interpretation of the Family of us, from time to time—as I have done Law Act, which made a very quick recom- recently on a Qantas flight—sit up the front mendation very early in its inquiry that the with the pilots when they are coming in to age limits applying to judges of the Family land at one of our major airports. One gets Court ought to be lifted from the age of 65 to the real, distinct feeling of pressure that is ap- 70 to at least bring them into line with all plied to those individuals who have the other judges in the Commonwealth jurisdic- responsibility not only for the lives of persons tion. I accept in general what the human on board but also for many of the people on rights commission has to say in this report, the ground and areas surrounding the airports but we have to look individually and specifi- where pilots land their aircraft. cally at where it applies within the Public Service Act. For many years there have been arbitrary and, in some cases, very unreal age limits Senator COONEY (Victoria) (4.37 p.m.)— applying to people. It certainly used to apply I agree with much of what Senator in the Defence Force. It applies in our police McKiernan said, but I must confess that what forces. As I understand it, in my state of he said at the start of his speech brought to Western Australia, senior police officers have me considerable shock. He was suggesting to retire when they reach the age of 55. Age that somebody aged 60 was not fit to fly an limits used to apply in politics. I can recall aeroplane. For a person whom I have had some very vigorous debates in my party back great respect for over the years to have this in Western Australia involving those of us unnatural—I use the word advisedly— who were advocating that there ought be age prejudice against people just because they are limits—it was a good way of removing people 60 comes as a shock. from the political positions they occupied! Mr Chris Sidoti is saying that age should not by itself be a bar to what a person can do It is interesting that, after growing up in the and to his or her place in the work force, in political party I grew up in, I actually came the same way that gender or disability or race to witness people who, having argued vigo- should not be a bar. If a person who is 60 is rously for the imposition of age limits at one unwell, is not physically or mentally fit to fly, point in time, somewhat later in their careers then he or she should not be allowed to fly. arguing for completely the opposite. I am not If a person who is of a particular sex is not in any way implying that their latter argu- properly qualified to carry on a particular job, ments were influenced by the fact that they then he or she should not be given it. But Mr too had aged. Might I quickly add that I have Sidoti points out here that a specific factor made it public that age limits will not affect should not by itself be a means of stopping me in the next round of preselections, because people from doing what they want. there will not be a next round of preselections for me. But I am going to be round this place I think Senator McKiernan is being particu- for a quite a period of time. larly selfish in saying that he is not going to stand for preselection again. He is a senator The report itself is an interesting one and who has performed wonders in this chamber not one, I suggest, that the government should over many years. I see Senator Crane and immediately accept without qualification, Senator Eggleston over there, other great without exceptions. There are still areas in Western Australians. I think they would agree this society where age limits ought apply— with me when I say that none of them should that is, age limits at the beginning of a work- retire from this place. Senator McKiernan, in ing life and at the end of a working life. I do particular, should reconsider what he has told not think we ought to automatically abolish us here today. I think he would bring joy to 4438 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 many a heart in Australia if he changed his ment (EFA). The Bench held that there were mind. limited grounds for appeal on the basis of jurisdic- tional error. Question resolved in the affirmative. Then, at the start of the next paragraph it Fisheries Research and Development says: Corporation and Fisheries Research and In this decision, the Bench found that the agree- Development Corporation Selection ment resulted in a breach of the ‘no disadvantage’ Committee test. Senator O’CHEE (Queensland)—I move: I cite that because I fear that if the Workplace That the Senate take note of the document. Relations Bill before the Senate is passed, then the no disadvantage test will disappear Mr Acting Deputy President, I understand that and so also will the ability of the independent you have a considerable interest in this umpire. So this report holds particular signifi- matter, so I ask that further debate on this cance in that it may well be the last time that document be adjourned until not earlier than something of that significance appears. 5 p.m. today. The second thing that I wanted to refer to, Ordered that further debate be adjourned because I know that union membership and until not earlier than 5 p.m. this day. people not wanting to be in unions has always Australian Industrial Relations been a bugbear for people, is at page 37 of Commission and Australian Industrial the report. Page 37 of the report contains the Registry heading: ‘Applications for certificates of conscientious objection’. This gives people Senator HOGG (Queensland) (4.40 the right to withdraw from unions or not to be p.m.)—I move: part of unions, should they so desire, by That the Senate take note of the document. going through the proper processes of the As a former long serving trade union offi- Deputy Industrial Registrar. It is interesting to cial— see in the report that there were 92 applica- Senator Cooney—And proud of it. tions pursuant to section 267 in 1993-94, 60 in 1994-95 and 69 in 1995-96. When one Senator HOGG—And very proud of it, I considers the number of workers in the work have had a great deal to do with the Industrial force in Australia, this is an insignificant Relations Commission and the Industrial number indeed. Registry over a long period. I have always greatly admired the work done by those I want to draw the Senate’s attention to organisations. pages 56, 57 and 58 of the report. There one sees a report on industrial democracy operat- In referring to this report, I want to take ing within the province of the Industrial note of the significance of a case before the Registry. These pages draw attention to a very commission in the last financial year, as enlightened approach to trade unionism, to referred to at page 9 of the report. The sig- employer-employee relations and to the nificance of this matter is that it may well be development of a cooperative spirit in the the last time, if the Workplace Relations Bill workplace. Page 56 says: is passed, that we see the commission inter- The primary objective of the new industrial democ- vening in matters such as this. I refer in racy plan is: particular to the matter of the Tweed Valley To bring about significant participation and fruit processors. I will quote from the report involvement by Registry staff in the decision because the matter was seen to be of such making processes of the registry. importance that it was highlighted as one of the three major cases reported. The report Again, if the Workplace Relations Bill that is says: before the Senate is passed, that will disappear. In this matter (Print M6526) the Full Bench dealt with the issue of whether an appeal lies against a Senator CRANE (Western Australia) (4.45 refusal to approve an enterprise flexibility agree- p.m.)—I too rise to speak on the annual report Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4439 from the Australian Industrial Relations ees to negotiate the detail of their working Commission and the Australian Industrial arrangements. The important point in relating Registry. This report is presented to this this to the bill we have before us is that the parliament by Deirdre O’Connor, the presi- commission will have responsibility for dent of the commission. There are a number putting in the minimum standards which of aspects that I would like to refer to but, conditions cannot go below but the other firstly, I congratulate the president of the matters will be negotiated between the parties. commission on what I think is a very precise, Further on in the report I note that the very good report with a lot of information in commission and registry moved to new it, put down in very concise and readable premises in Perth and Darwin—and I hope to terms. As one who has looked at each of the see this extend. There are some comments reports here in this place for the last seven that I will not go over, but I think that was a years, I think this is one of the most concise welcome development and one we will see reports—if not the most concise report—that develop further, I believe, under the new we have had from this body. legislation in terms of the coordination be- It does highlight a number of important tween the state and federal systems. aspects. In the year in summary section we As we work through the report, I draw find that in total there were some 13,643 attention to the comments on page 9 with applications with regard to unlawful termina- regard to international cooperation. I do that tion. We have already heard that we are going because of the commission’s role in hosting to see the committee stage of the reform bill a delegation of visitors from South Africa in debated over the next week or two and be the context of the changes that have occurred dealt with here, it having passed the second in that nation in recent times with the ending reading stage. of the previous regime and the beginning of One particular thing in that bill that must be a much more democratic process. one of the top priorities in this country is the The document contains comments about situation that has existed since 1993 resulting relationships with state industrial tribunals, from the unfair dismissal laws that were which, as I have already mentioned, are very brought in by the former labour minister, important. I would like to go quickly to pages Laurie Brereton. They will forever remain a 18 and 19 on the statistics of the activities of blight on his position and his contribution to the commission. It is interesting to note that industrial law in this country. The year in the notification of disputes has increased from summary graph says it all, and it is there for 1994-95 to 1995-96. I believe that with this people to observe. much more cooperative approach on work- places you will see a decline in that under the Moving through the document, I draw new workplace arrangements bill. There are attention to one of the points in that summa- a number of other aspects—(Time expired) ry: Senator FORSHAW (New South Wales) In October 1995, the Commission produced a resource book, Making Federal Awards Simpler,as (4.50 p.m.)—I rise to make some remarks on a guide to reviewing federal awards under s.150A this very excellent annual report of the Indus- of the Act. The industrial parties were enthusiastic trial Registry of the Australian Industrial participants and made important contributions to the Relations Commission. At the outset I have production of the resource book. to make a confession to the chamber. I actual- I make the point that, under the reform bill ly was a trade union official for some 18 before us, the process outlined here will not years and I spent many hours appearing in the only be enhanced, it will proceed in a much Industrial Relations Commission—or as it was more constructive and cooperative manner in previously called, the Conciliation and Arbi- dealing with future matters and issues. Of tration Commission. On a number of occa- course, having made awards simpler, it is sions I appeared with the good Senator Crane. going to put much more responsibility back I was very interested in Senator Crane’s into the workplace for employers and employ- remarks towards the end of his speech when 4440 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 he was actually praising the commission and result of the orderly transition to a process saying that they might get some new offices involving enterprise bargaining coupled with in Perth and Darwin. I fear, Senator Crane, the safety net of award regulation, has been that if the workplace relations bill provisions involved in cooperating with the industrial which seek to emasculate, if not destroy, the parties, both on the employers’ and the work of the commission ever come to pass in employees’ side, to update and to modernise the form that they are at the moment then you awards. will not be needing any new offices because there will not be any role for the commission That is not sufficient for this government, at all. notwithstanding, as this report notes, that that process has had the enthusiastic participation That will be a shame because this report of the industrial parties. This government details superbly the excellent work that is wants to undo all of that good work, all of being done by the Industrial Relations Com- that cooperative work, which has seen the mission in terms of both the appointed mem- lowest level of industrial disputation in this bers of that commission and also the various country in living memory. The good work administrative functions, including the regis- that is recorded in this report, which went try. Details are provided with respect to the towards modernising awards, promoting members of the commission. enterprise bargaining but at the same time One of the great things about the former C underpinning it with a safety net award and A Commission and the now Industrial system, is, unfortunately, at grave peril, at Relations Commission is the wealth of experi- grave risk as a result of the workplace rela- ence of its members. They come from areas tions bill. such as the business community, the profes- I can only endorse the comments of Senator sional business organisations, farmers organi- Hogg when he said that this may well be—or sations—as Senator Crane once represented— it will be—the last report of this nature as a trade unions, companies, the public sector, the result of the proposals contained in the legal profession and a range of other disci- government’s current legislation. I commend plines. All of these people bring countless this report to the Senate and I commend it to years of experience to industrial relations members of the government. They should issues. read it, take time to understand it and rethink Unfortunately, the attitude of the govern- their current industrial relations policies. ment is that all of that is going to be ignored, (Time expired) thrown out and cast into the dustbin of history under the proposals that they have. Their Senator BISHOP (Western Australia) (4.55 proposals—as contained in proposed section p.m.)—Without doubt, the Industrial Relations 89A and section 44 of the bill—will take the Commission is an integral part of Australian award regulation functions away from the working life. As a result of its workings, commission, whereby awards of the commis- ordinary Australians’ lives are affected. This sion will simply be varied by legislation to occurs in the areas of wages, conditions of exclude a whole range of provisions. employment and a range of others. This is a prudent time to discuss this report, consider- I raise that particular issue because I would ing the changes the government is proposing like to refer specifically to section 150A, to make to the legislation. review process, detailed on pages 5 and 6 of the report. It indicates that the commission The report outlines several major issues has produced a resource book, Making federal over the past year. I will discuss just a few of awards simpler, which is a guide to reviewing those. The period 1995-96 has seen a signifi- federal awards as required under section 150A cant increase in the workload of the commis- of the current act. The Industrial Relations sion and the Australian Industrial Registry. Commission, over a number of years, as a There was a 35 per cent increase from last result of the various amendments put through year’s all-time high in the number of matters by the former Labor government and as a lodged with the commission—they totalled Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4441

32,972. This produced a 39 per cent increase Senator Crane made reference to that. The in the number of hearings by the commission. interesting thing to note about that growth of This fact alone highlights the important role unlawful terminations is that almost exclu- of the commission in Australia today. It is sively it is growing in administrative, manag- used extensively by our community in the erial and non-award areas. It is unclear what lodging of grievances and the bringing to- process people will be able to go through to gether of employer and employee in attempt- resolve these issues under current proposals. ing to resolve disputes. These are points the I turn now, more comprehensively, to the Senate should take note of in deciding the Australian Industrial Registry. The registry is commission’s future. a statutory authority established under the The Senate should note that the increased Industrial Relations Act. The registry essen- workload of the commission continued to tially provides administrative support to the occur while preparing itself for the budget Industrial Relations Commission. It plays an cuts of the Howard government. The commis- important role in facilitating cooperation sion should be commended for its high between the federal and state industrial quality of work while overseeing an increas- relations systems. The registry, like the ing workload and a decreasing budget with commission, has had an increasing workload which to deal with its business. over the reporting period. Lodgments have increased by approximately 8,000 in 1995-96 Senators should be aware that the commis- and the average hearings per day have in- sion is not responsible only for dealing with creased to 105. This is up from 76 hearings issues lodged. It also plays an important per day in 1994-95. monitoring role. In accordance with the act, the Australian Industrial Registry identifies Like the commission, the increased work- awards that have seen no change for the last load of the registry will continue. However, five years and writes to all parties involved to the government will also bring about reduc- establish the current status of those awards. tions in its budget. This is most evident in the The responses are then referred on to the implementation of the recommendations commission to deal with as appropriate. stemming from the review into the registry in The report highlights that there were 395 1994-95. awards requiring review with the following The report highlights a number of recom- results: 169 awards were set aside, 58 awards mendations that have been put on hold since were identified by the parties as still current, the budget cuts, and I will mention just a few 69 awards were referred to panel heads for these cuts are affecting. They are the estab- further action to determine their status, and 72 lishment by the president of the Australian awards were scheduled for hearing before the Industrial Relations Commission advisory commission in August this year. I highlight board; the establishment and convening of the these points because they illustrate the import- implementation consultative forum; the ant role the commission and the registry play implementation of an initial communications and the issues that would remain unresolved strategy; and the appointment of a financial or unmonitored if the commission does not restructuring implementation working party. continue in its current form. There have been many high standard facets Perhaps this issue is no more obvious than of the commission and registry highlighted in in the area of unlawful terminations. The this year’s report. It has a good record on report states: internal accounting procedures as well as The conciliation of complaints of unlawful termina- opening itself up to external scrutiny. It has tion of employment has become a growing jurisdic- an excellent staff training and development tion for the Commission during the reporting program, a high level of success with its period. information technology resources through In the reporting period, the commission had equal employment opportunity standards and over 13,000 reports lodged for unlawful an extensive industrial democracy program. termination of employment—and I think The report highlights the important work of 4442 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 both the Industrial Relations Commission and Senator Bob Collins—You can take a the Industrial Registry. (Time expired) point of order; that will take another couple of minutes. Senator CONROY (Victoria) (5.00 p.m.)— I rise to speak on this report. In particular, I Senator CONROY—Yes, because we will urge members of the government to have a be debating you for five minutes. good look at this report and read it. I would Senator Crane interjecting— particularly like to urge the Minister for Senator Hogg—You weren’t named. Industrial Relations (Mr Reith) to do that. Senator CONROY—You were not named, The Minister for Industrial Relations was Senator Crane, but I was. I do not have any asked a question today in question time and problem with being accused of being a part of decided he wanted to expound his knowledge the Transport Workers Union of Australia, of areas covered by this report and by indus- particularly the Victorian branch. You used to trial relations. But he seemed to be unable to be a unionist, Senator Crane, so I do not grasp a simple fundamental fact—that is, the know how you missed being on his list. Are difference between being a member of a you still a financial member? union and being an official. Senator Crane—Yes, absolutely. Like a number of other speakers, I want to Senator CONROY—It is amazing how he declare that I was an official of the Transport missed you out. He had members of other Workers Union and therefore have a vested unions, and he still managed to have a go at interest in his answer. Besides highlighting them. me and a number of other Labor senators who have recently come to this chamber, the The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT minister decided to prove his ignorance of (Senator Calvert)—Order! Senator Conroy, industrial relations and the Industrial Rela- would you address your remarks through the tions Commission— chair? Senator CONROY—Sorry. I repeat that I Senator Bishop—Again. think this is a very good report. I urge the Senator CONROY—Yes, again—by citing Minister for Industrial Relations to read it and a number of new Labor senators who were get a grasp of it because it is his portfolio. simply members of unions and had written in Instead of trying to destroy the commission their pecuniary interest forms that they were and its roles and functions, he should have a members of the meatworkers union or the good read of the report and get across his CPSU. portfolio. Senator Hogg—The SDA. Senator COONEY (Victoria) (5.03 p.m.)— I want to speak on this report. Talking about Senator CONROY—Or the SDA. The interests, I suppose I ought to declare an minister does not seem to be able to under- interest in this report, because it deals with stand that very important fundamental differ- the Australian Industrial Relations Commis- ence between someone who is a paid official sion and the Australian Industrial Registry. I and someone who is a member. He could not have a very great son, Justin, who works as even manage that. So he stood up and, for an associate to Deputy President Williams in five minutes in question time today in that the Industrial Relations Commission. other place, he made a tirade against all the union officials. Senator Crane—And a very good officer, I might add. Senator Crane—Are you going to mention Senator COONEY—Thank you very much the report so I don’t have to take a point of for that, Senator Crane. Page xiii of the report order? shows very clearly the point that has been Senator CONROY—I have mentioned that made again and again here today—that is, I wish the minister would read this absolutely there is a great need for this commission and excellent report. this registry to continue because they are both Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4443 very busy. That is very clear from the chart or the day before. But then the government, on that page. in its wisdom, refused to go on to the com- That chart sets out the matters lodged and mittee stage of the debate; hence the bill is in commission hearings from 1991-92 to 1995- limbo for the moment. 96. It is quite clear that they have gone up Senator Crane—Not for long. considerably. A lot of those no doubt would Senator McKIERNAN—That is not good be for wrongful dismissals, and that matter is enough, Senator Crane. Perhaps, with your dealt with on page 6. It can be seen from enormous influence in the coalition parties what is on page 6 that a good deal of the and the government, you could give this matters—although I have not had a clear look chamber and the people of Australia an at it—are settled and have gone ahead on the explanation for your priority piece of legisla- basis of consent. Although there are great tion being put to one side, because no valid changes contemplated for the industrial explanation has been given to date. relations system in Australia—changes which will affect the work of the commission and I see Senator Calvert over there. I know of the registry—it is quite clear on the material his influence within the government as well, we have before us that there is very much a but on this particular point he is silent. I will need for these bodies. not invite the duty minister, Senator Herron, to come into the debate to give us some Senator Hogg, in his excellent contribution reasons. I think he deserves a bit of a rest at to the debate, pointed out the part played by the end of the week because it has been a section 267 of the present act which deals tough one. Nevertheless, I am making a very with conscientious objections. No doubt valid point in relation to the report before the various members of this chamber would have chamber. been lobbied in this by the brethren. I thought they were quite eloquent in their desire to I want to make only one other point before have a section like 267—if it is not 267 I sit down and that goes to what the Minister itself—retained in the act. I know it has been for Industrial Relations (Mr Reith) had to say said that there will be no need for that, but I during question time today in the House of do think, even if the new act is put through, Representatives. There is a simple reason for that a conscientious objection clause ought be the minister wasting five minutes of question kept. It certainly would bring a great comfort time denigrating trade unions, trade union not only to many workers but also to many officials, trade union members who happen to employers. be members of parliament and senators—in turn, denigrating all members of all unions. Senator Crane—It will be there. It is a great shame that the minister hates Senator COONEY—It will be? Thank you, trade unions in the way that he does. It is not Senator Crane. As per usual, you are very a great way to approach industrial relations in wise in this area and, if you assure me that this country. The reason he wasted five the conscientious objection clause will be minutes naming individuals who happen to be there, I will sit down. members of parliament was to filibuster, to Senator McKIERNAN (Western Australia) stop the members of the opposition asking (5.06 p.m.)—This is an important report, not very valid questions about the financial affairs so much because of its content but because of of ministers in the Howard government. its timing. It has a arrived in this chamber This week has seen an enormous change in while the Senate is in the midst of a discus- the front bench of government, with the sion on the workplace relations bill, a bill that resignation of a minister and the resignation turns on its head the current industrial rela- of a parliamentary secretary. We saw the near tions system. resignation of a number of others and one Why is debate not continuing on that bill? minister from this chamber apologising to the We have been through an extensive debate on Senate for misleading the parliament through the second reading and voted on it yesterday her invention of a fictitious family and for 4444 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 giving details of it in evidence to a Senate fishing industry to the benefit of all stake- committee some four weeks ago. holders. The Senate committees come on again next I note, too, the commencement of a project week and, certainly, senators from this side of aimed at promoting the need for quality the chamber will be asking more questions assurance in fishing—SeaQual—which is a about the affairs of government, as we are joint initiative between the Australian Seafood quite entitled to. The Minister for Industrial Industry Council, the Commonwealth Depart- Relations might have been able to filibuster ment of Primary Industries and the Fisheries for five minutes today in the House of Repre- Research and Development Corporation. And sentatives at question time but it will be that I also note with interest that one member of much more difficult for the ministers facing the board of directors is Mr Peter Shelley, the estimates committees to filibuster during who just happens to be the Managing Director that process. I put them on notice now that of Tassal Ltd, a large Tasmanian salmon they will not be able to get away with invent- producer. I thought I had better mention that, ing families in order to hide the incompetence given the importance of the salmon industry and ineptitude of some of the ministers in this in Tasmania, an industry that is doubling in government. value every five years. Debate (on motion by Senator Calvert) Senator Conroy—Have you got shares in adjourned. it? Fisheries Research and Development Senator CALVERT—No, I have not. Corporation and Fisheries Research and Senator Bob Collins—And it is a superb Development Corporation Selection product. Committee Senator CALVERT—It is the best salmon Debate resumed. in the world and that is acknowledged by the Senator CALVERT (Tasmania) (5.12 Japanese, who are very particular with their p.m.)—by leave—This is a very important product. I am very pleased to see that we report. It refers to one of the most important have people of the calibre of Peter Shelley on resources in this country, our fishing re- this board. One of their goals is to manage sources. We all know that, over time, this the R&D funds. I am pleased to say that our resource has been depleted. I am pleased to federal government has increased funding for see that the board of the statutory corporation fisheries research in Tasmania by some set up in 1991 is doing a very efficient and $600,000 this year. Tasmania is going to able job in rectifying some of the mistakes of receive $3.8 million in funding from the the past. Fisheries Research and Development Corpo- ration this financial year. I note from this very good report that during 1995-96 the FRDC planned, funded Whilst I acknowledge that the federal and managed 240 projects worth $29.2 government has been cutting back in some million. It sets out the corporation’s mission, areas, in this case the government has an- which is to increase the economic and social nounced that it will retain the current funding benefits for the fishing industry and the arrangements for the FRDC, because we people of Australia through planned invest- recognise that continued research is at the ments in research and development and an heart of sustainable fisheries management. I ecologically sustainable framework. know most of us realise just how important our fishing industry is. The chairman’s overview explains the role that the board played during the year. I note I note in the report that in 1995-96 the with interest that 64 final reports on research FRDC received $12.9 million in Common- and development projects were received. The wealth and industry funding for fisheries results of those projects, when adopted, will research. In my own state, fishing is a very continue the sustainable development of the vital part of our economy. It is worth more Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4445 than $215 million per year. Along with to take drugs so that they can qualify for an mining and forestry, it is one of our major Olympics at home. That will increase the income earners, with ever increasing reliance probability that some young people may be on aquaculture. In this report, we have dozens misguided and led astray by those coaches. of projects that are highlighting aquaculture Some young athletes may feel the pressures. and the very important southern bluefin tuna industry. That is one of the industries that has It is important that we not just maintain our been overfished, and it is a very valuable funding levels for this agency but increase industry. them because there is going to be potential for an increased level of abuse over the next I note that the CSIRO is going to receive few years. It is very important that athletes in something like $539,000 over three years to Australia know that the agency is about, and develop an index of the abundance of the see its advertising and the ‘beat the cheats’ southern bluefin tuna so that we do not fall program they have been promoting. Abuse is into the trap, as has happened in the past, for everywhere throughout the country where instance with the orange roughy industry, of there are athletes. fishermen depleting the industry. We are spending something like $258,000 over three We do not want the blot that other games years in tagging, developing and monitoring have had over the last 10 years. I well re- the southern shark fishery, which is very member watching Ben Johnson and Carl important because we export a lot of flake to Lewis a few years ago. I sat down and put a Victoria, where my colleague, Senator videotape on because I thought it was going Cooney, no doubt enjoys it every Friday. I to be pretty special watching the 100-metres seek leave to continue my remarks later. final. Ben Johnson ran a world record. I thought, ‘Jeez, I am glad I got that 9.7 sec- Leave granted; debate adjourned. onds on film.’ Then the next day it came out that he was on anabolic steroids. I know how Australian Sports Drug Agency let down and cheated I felt. Certainly Carl Senator CONROY (Victoria) (5.17 p.m.)— Lewis made it plain how cheated he felt at the I move: time. But justice was done and he got his That the Senate take note of the document. gold medal. I am very pleased to get an opportunity to That is what we do not want to see in refer to the annual report of the Australian Sydney in 2000. We want a drug free games. Sports Drug Agency. This is an excellent We want to make sure that no Australian report. I urge senators to have a flick through athletes are able to get through the screening it if they have a bit of spare time. It deals procedures between now and 2000 and that with a whole range of funding proposals for no Australian athletes shame us. I am not sug- the next few years and what the Australian gesting there are going to be any, but the key Sports Drug Agency is proposing in the lead- role of the agency is deterrence so that every up to the year 2000 and the Olympics to be athlete knows that, if they are going to try it, held here in Australia. they are going to get caught. If we are going The government has made a commitment to to win gold medals in 2000, it is going to be not cut back, despite all the other cutbacks, in fair and square. the athletes program. It is very important that The drug agency also plays a role on the we do not cut back and that we increase our international stage. For many years, interna- funding for the Sports Drugs Agency to tional drug testing has been controversial. perform its role. You only have to look at what has been going We need to do that in two areas. Firstly, we on with swimming, where we have probably need to do it locally. Unfortunately, there is seen Australian swimmers robbed of gold going to be a big incentive for a lot of un- medals and world records because other scrupulous coaches to put pressure on young countries have not been prepared to be as athletes in Australia over the next few years clean as we have been. 4446 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

We have to see an increase in Australia’s to acquaint the Senate with a case that hap- international participation. We have to see an pened to a friend of mine who was tested not increase in the number of drug control offic- by the Australian Sports Drug Agency but by ers. We only have 29 going around the coun- a body overseas. try. What I am suggesting is that we are This friend of mind was a bobsledder who going to need more, and the government must was tested at the world championships in be prepared to recognise that and give an Altenberg a couple of years ago. He had spent increase in funding to the agency. The pro- most of the tour travelling with me and if we cesses are critical. We have already seen legal were not sharing rooms, we were sharing a abuses over the last few years internationally car, travelling together, competing together and even here in Australia, where an athlete and preparing together. He was tested and gets tested positive and is able to use the came up positive on a test that said he had legal processes to overturn the federations— taken speed, uppers. If you know anything athletics, swimming or whichever. about bobsledding, you would know that it is It is very important that the drug agency is pretty unlikely that you would want to take able to use the correct procedures and not speed because it happens fast enough as it is. have athletes claim that the tests were done He was the random test—they test the first illegally or incorrectly or handled wrongly five in a random test in a world champion- and those sorts of things. We cannot afford ship. By the time it got to him, he did not that blight in 2000. have a choice of containers into which the It is very important that the agency is able sample could be put. Moreover, his sample to visit as many schools as possible in Aus- went into a holding container which was in tralia over the next four years to get that fact a coffee cup with a lid put on it. message out. The beat the cheats program is Senator Panizza—I thought you were a very important message for this country and going to say a beer mug. for the youth of this country. We want it in every young athlete’s mind that we are about Senator O’CHEE—They let you take beer a drug free games in 2000 and winning fair as a diuretic. and square so that Australia can celebrate in Senator Bob Collins—Did he test positive the year 2000. for caffeine? Senator O’CHEE (Queensland) (5.22 Senator O’CHEE—No, he tested positive p.m.)—I speak as one of the few members of for speed. The consequence was that it was either place who actually has an interest in referred to his national organisation, which the operations of this for the simple reason gave him a two-year ban. It took him two that I may be tested from time to time. years to overturn the test, which was quite clearly improper. That athlete lost two of the Senator Bob Collins—For what? best years of his competitive life. Senator O’CHEE—Senator Collins, I Senator Cooney is a big champion of civil would like to test you for a few things at liberties, so he would understand what I am times too. talking about when I say that if we do not get Senator Bob Collins—I was told you failed it right—and I think the Australian Sports the drug test. They found traces of a Mars bar Drug Agency does get it right generally— in your urine sample. athletes will lose out. Senator O’CHEE—Senator Collins, I will When I go on to the start line, I do not take the interjection. I wish I could get more mind if somebody is going to beat me. That Mars bars into me. I seem to be losing weight is a risk you take any time you go into sport. at the moment. I will offer you the suggestion You go in there to see whether you can beat later on, Senator Collins. One of the problems somebody else or they can beat you; but you of any compulsory regime for drug testing is want to know that you are beaten fair and the risk that you get the test wrong. To show square. It is important for everybody that what happens when a test goes wrong, I want these things are right. Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4447

The cost of the Australian Sports Drug National Gallery of Australia Agency is about $3½ million a year to the Senator COONEY (Victoria) (5.28 p.m.)— Commonwealth. If protracted legal disputes I move: arose, the cost of operating the Australian Sports Drug Agency would blow out. So That the Senate take note of the document. when the regulations were brought before the The report of the National Gallery of Austral- Senate committee on regulations and ordi- ia is very well put together. Reading through nances, I said to other honourable senators on it, one name stands out amongst others and the committee—and I note the presence of that is Betty Churcher. This is an appropriate Senator Hogg here, although it was before time to mark the great work that she has done your time, Senator—that we had to make sure for art in Australia. She is a member of the this was right. I did not want to participate in Canberra group of the foundation, as is indeed the debate on the regulations, for the simple our President, Senator Margaret Reid. The reason that I did not want to be perceived as sorts of things Betty Churcher has done need influencing it. But I am very acutely aware of noting. For example, she brought the Turner what will happen if we do not get it right. exhibition here, and, Madam Acting Deputy President, I hope that you went down to the There were 34 notifiable results from some exhibition. 500 tests conducted last year. But it is clear Senator Conroy—I did. that the incidence of drug taking among Senator COONEY—I notice that Senator sports men and women in this country is a lot Conroy did. He would remember the great higher than that because the testing regime is works of art that Turner produced—and not aimed at the elite athlete. However, the only his watercolours but his oils. What damage that is done to your body is the same struck us most was his very dramatic painting whether you are an elite athlete or a 16-year- The burning of Westminster. They were most old boy who wants to get bigger to play dramatic paintings. football. This is a great institution of Canberra. It has world-class art. Indeed, it takes it overseas. I We must not rely just on the Australian noticed on page 37 a photograph of a display Sports Drug Agency. It is the obligation of of Australian art which the National Gallery everybody involved in sport who has a profile held in Japan. The art being displayed was to go to schools and tell young children, indigenous art. I know that Senator Bob ‘Don’t do drugs.’ Tell them it is not just Collins knows a great deal about that, having about cheating. It is about seeing their gonads been centrally involved in its recognition in shrivel up and slime ooze from their eyes, the Northern Territory. I seek leave to con- ears and nose because this is what happens tinue my remarks later. when the level of toxins in your system builds up so much—your body cannot handle it any Leave granted; debate adjourned. more. Australian Broadcasting Authority Drugs damage people’s lives, and that is the Senator BOB COLLINS (Northern Terri- real issue. We have to be aware of those tory) (5.31 p.m.)—I move: things. If we want a clean games and clean That the Senate take note of the document. Australian athletes, it does not start when they The Australian Broadcasting Authority is become elite. It starts the very first day they doing very important work for Australia under turn out for training and it continues from the very professional direction of its chair, Mr then until the day they retire from sport. Peter Webb. The authority not only very Unless any other honourable senators wish to effectively fulfils its mission statement of make a contribution, I seek leave to continue promoting the availability and development of my remarks. a range of broadcasting services, but it carries out a great deal of important research for Leave granted; debate adjourned. Australia in terms of its social fabric. I will 4448 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 canvass two areas—Australian content and the government does have powers. It uses the impact of programs on children—which are corporations power under section 51 of the canvassed in the report, at greater length at constitution. There is ample reference to the another time. I seek leave to continue my use of this power for this purpose in the remarks later. standard text on environmental law in Austral- Leave granted; debate adjourned. ia by Dr Gerry Bates, which points out that while this power has not been used, except, Consideration incidentally, in the Franklin Dam case, it Question resolved in the affirmative on the would be able to protect areas of national following order of the day without further significance. debate during consideration of orders of the day relating to government documents: What is happening in D’Entrecasteaux Genetic Manipulation Advisory Committee- National Park is that the Western Australian Report for 1995-96 parliament, with the government using its numbers, has excised over 300 hectares of the D’ENTRECASTEAUX NATIONAL park within 300 metres of the largest fresh- PARK PROTECTION BILL 1996 water lake in south-west Western Australia, Lake Jasper. In doing so it has not only cut Second Reading hundreds of hectares out of the national park, Debate resumed from 8 October, on mo- but it threatens the lake itself, with its rare tions by Senator Margetts and Senator and magnificent wildlife and plant life spe- Murray: cies, including a great number of aquatic That this bill be now read a second time. species, including local fish and frog species Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (5.32 p.m.)— which are only found in that region of south- I will be very brief because I want the Senate west Western Australia. Moreover, it threatens to regard the D’Entrecasteaux National Park an underwater archaeological site, the only Protection Bill, which is so important to a such site on mainland Australia, which has a vital part of Australia’s natural heritage, as rich repository of Aboriginal sites going back one that should be taken through to accept- at least 8,000 years. All of this is to be ance or rejection during the short period that threatened by a short-term mining operation is available. wholly owned outside Australia, repatriating most of its profits overseas and leaving very As the Senate will know, it is very unusual little for the state or the people of Western for a private member’s bill to be introduced Australia. and subsequently passed for consideration by the House of Representatives. I will speak for Environmentalists all over Western Austral- five or six minutes and I ask that other speak- ia, including many citizens of the state, want ers do likewise so that we can vote on the this project to be mothballed. They want their second reading of this piece of legislation. If national park back. We in the national arena the Senate cares to pass it, in the same way have a responsibility, when you have a mav- as the Senate passed a motion just a few days erick state government doing the wrong thing, ago which called for the protection of the to help. I point out that in answer to the Hon. D’Entrecasteaux National Park, it can go Jim Scott, a West Australian Green in the through the committee stage and, hopefully, upper house in Western Australia, the be passed by the Senate for consideration by Minister for Mines in that state showed that the House of Representatives. this is not a once-off. There are no less than I congratulate Senator Margetts and Senator 65 mineral exploration licences issued or Murray for the bill. It arises out of the debate under application for issue over almost the on that motion during which a government complete national park system of Western member said, ‘But we have no powers.’ What Australia. Hardly a park is left untargeted, the two senators have done is bring to the from Karijini to Fitzgerald River through to Senate a bill which shows clearly that the Purnululu. Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4449

We owe it to the National Estate, which is going to do in relation to the Margetts bill on threatened by this move, to stand by it. I D’Entrecasteaux. She asked whether we were commend this bill to the Senate. I hope that going to support the bill. I said to that jour- all senators will be expedient in contributing nalist, ‘I have not actually seen the bill yet.’ to the debate on the legislation. It is a test of She asked, ‘What does the minister think commitment to fairness. The government has about it?’ This is from people who believe we a lot of legislation coming up between now should be processing this bill quickly. and Christmas. I know they will want other Senator Brownhill—We get this all the senators to be expeditious in dealing with that time. because they think it is important. We consider this legislation to be important. In Senator CAMPBELL—You do, too, but particular, Senator Margetts and Senator not as quickly as this. I said to the journalist Murray, who have brought it before this from the West Australian newspaper that I House, believe it is vital and urgent legisla- would check with the minister, which I did tion. I ask senators to give consideration to it. within a few minutes. He said that he was I say to members on both the government and aware that a bill was coming in but that he the opposition sides that they should consider had not seen it. I asked that journalist, ‘Does it with the expedition that they will expect for that give you an inkling as to the motivations other legislation which they hold to be equal- of Senator Margetts in relation to this bill?’ ly important. Senator Margetts had a choice. When she received the bill from the draftsmen and was Senator CAMPBELL (Western Australia— happy with it, she could have walked out Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for the through the doors, wandered across to Environment and Parliamentary Secretary to Minister Hill’s office and sat down with either the Minister for Sport, Territories and Local the minister’s advisers or sought a meeting Government) (5.37 p.m.)—I would like firstly with Senator Hill, who I am sure would have to respond to Senator Brown’s plea to speak dropped everything to meet with Senator quickly to truncate the debate. It is almost a Margetts. She chose not to do that. She chose subtle guillotine but without the blade. The to jump in the lift and go up to the second government does not view favourably the floor—or probably walked the stairs, if I process of bringing in a bill like this and not know Senator Margetts—to the office of the going through the normal process. I am not West Australian and gave them the bill. It was criticising the process; any senator has the more important to get the bill into the West right to bring on private member’s legislation, Australian newspaper than it was to get it into but most pieces of legislation that the govern- the hands of the government so that we could ment or anyone else brings in here are gener- give it proper consideration. ally subject to the cut-off motion. They are generally subject to being able to be con- I will not pursue that point much further, sidered by interested senators. I know from but I think it shows the perspective of the the coalition side that any legislation like this Greens. I do not seek to impugn the motives would normally be referred to the back bench of the Green senators. I know that they care committee on the environment, and would be deeply about the Australian environment and considered closely by government officers its protection, and I know that Senator within the department of the environment and Margetts and Senator Murray care deeply the federal EPA. about D’Entrecasteaux. I perhaps am giving them advice that, if they want to seek the sort I do not criticise Senator Brown because he of cooperation from the government that is not personally involved in this, but I first Senator Brown has sought today, it would be became aware of this bill not during the better to walk across to Senator Hill’s office debate on a motion brought before this cham- or my office and start talking about it rather ber a few weeks ago but from a phone call than going to the West Australian. Leave the from a West Australian newspaper journalist West Australian newspaper as your second who rang me to ask what the government was visit, not your first visit. 4450 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

As I have said in my contribution on behalf Accordingly, the Commonwealth, in con- of the government when debating the general junction with the states through the COAG business notice of motion about a month ago, process and through this working group, will the issue at stake is whether the Common- seek to review the respective roles, to cut out wealth government should be involved in duplication and, most importantly, to create legislating on an ad hoc basis, which is what better cooperation. With respect to the Green we are being asked to do here, to resolve land senators and to Senator Murray, you do not use conflicts and environmental issues on a achieve that sort of cooperation whenever you case by case basis from Canberra. are not happy with the state process or you do I put the view that the Commonwealth, in not like a particular development by going the view of the new government—and I think around in an ad hoc way and saying, ‘Bring to a large extent in the view of the former a bill into the parliament, pass it through and government—has a very important national stop it.’ That is not the way to achieve co- leadership role to play. I do not think that operation. It is not the good way to achieve would be contested by the Green senators. We a good outcome for the environment. We also have a responsibility to address issues of need to create a process that works better for national and international environmental the environment. concern, particularly World Heritage areas This bill seeks to pre-empt that review. It and Ramsar sites. This is recognised by the pre-empts the Commonwealth’s commitment intergovernmental agreement on the environ- to achieving a more sensible process of ment, and it was also recognised by the dealing with these land use conflict and coalition’s saving our national heritage policy. environmental issues. The Commonwealth has The Commonwealth is concerned that the before it no information that would suggest existing legislative and administrative struc- that the values contained within the subject tures do not adequately reflect this view of area come under any Commonwealth jurisdic- the Commonwealth’s role and responsibilities. tion. In some cases, there is unnecessary duplica- They are not World Heritage listed, even tion between what the Commonwealth does though Senator Brown and Senator Margetts and what the states do. So often in Australia might like them to be World Heritage listed. we have people proposing land use activities In Australia there are 11 World Heritage areas with environmental consequences who go where the Commonwealth has quite clear through local processes, then state processes powers and responsibilities, but this area does and then are forced to go through a Common- not come under those. They do not come wealth process. There is overlap in a whole under a Ramsar listing either. We have 49 range of areas. In other cases, the Common- Ramsar-listed sites across Australia, nine of wealth’s role is not adequately recognised. which are in my home state of Western One of the goals of the new Commonwealth Australia. This site, of course, is not one of government is to try to sort out those roles them. With Ramsar sites, the Commonwealth and responsibilities to create an efficient again has very clear roles and responsibilities system and to create a system that is more defined in legislation. likely to achieve better environmental out- Senator Brown made the point that the area comes. that is referred to is listed in the Common- In this regard, a report from a Common- wealth’s directory of important wetlands. But wealth-state working group is due to go to the point is that there are over 700 areas listed COAG in May 1997. Preliminary negotiations in that directory and 110 of them are in between the three levels of government— Western Australia. Clearly, it would be ludi- between Commonwealth, state, territory and crous for the Commonwealth to propose a local government officials—have already piece of legislation that would stop activity in commenced. To give clarity to this issue, this or around all of those 700 areas—although I is to better define the roles and responsibili- would not be surprised if Senator Brown and ties of the Commonwealth. Senator Margetts may propose that that might Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4451 be a course of action for the Commonwealth The Commonwealth, as Senator Brown and to take. Senator Margetts will not be surprised to I also refer to migratory species. Again, the know, will not be supporting this legislation Commonwealth has obligations in relation to as we believe it would set a quite silly prece- migratory species, particularly the Bonn dent for Commonwealth intervention into Convention on migratory species, the Japan- virtually every environmental issue anywhere Australia migratory birds agreement and the in Australia. Our intention is to ensure that China-Australia migratory birds agreement. there is a comprehensive EIS carried out, But there is no reference to the national park involving sensible levels of public consulta- providing habitat for any of these species. tion, broad public consultation, and that it is conducted before any decisions are made. In terms of the National Estate, Senator Brown is quite correct in saying that the area We also believe—and I have already had is listed on the National Estate. However, discussions on behalf of the minister with the there are 11,000 places on that National relevant people—that there is nothing to say Estate and we have to ask ourselves as a that the triggering process for the Cable Sands government and as a parliament whether we operation will go ahead. It is my understand- intend introducing 11,000 D’Entrecasteaux ing that they have not lodged with the auth- National Park protection bills, if that is the orities in Western Australia the document that criterion for our intervening in this way. would actually trigger even the Western Again, I would not be surprised if Senator Australian process at this stage. There is Brown and Senator Margetts were not propos- actually no proposal to mine as yet, but we all ing—in their view of an ideal world it would expect that there will be within the near be possible—to protect all 11,000 sites on the future. National Estate in this way by bringing an There is no reason why, if it is the choice overarching Commonwealth power to bear. of the company, we could not trigger the But I do not think many other people would federal processes as well and that there be a view the matter this way. parallel process with the federal government With that background can I say, as I said in being involved. We would not then have to my previous contribution, that this is very jump a whole range of hurdles and processes. much at this stage a matter for the Western The Commonwealth does have an active role Australian government and for the Western in ensuring that the EIS meets the Common- Australian parliament. They have, as we wealth’s environmental goals. know, passed a bill which will excise this Senator Brown, I know you would prefer us area of 300-odd hectares from the park and to say no mining whatsoever in this national replace it with about 1,100 or 1,200 hectares park and I am sure many people would hold immediately adjacent to Lake Jasper. that view. That particular area has been used As I have said previously, the Common- for a range of uses in the past. I am informed wealth will have a responsibility and a role that it was a pastoral lease for many years, when and if Cable Sands, having gone although it has changed since then. I believe through the environmental process as they are there is farming activity only just to the west required to in Western Australia, seek an of the area that Cable Sands has put back into export licence. That will, of course, trigger the national park. It is not in the classical the EP(IP) act. The resources minister would respect what I would define as ‘wilderness’, then be required to advise the environment even though I think it does have qualities by minister and after appropriate levels of assess- which some people would give it that tag. ment are carried out under EP(IP) the re- I do not know what the Labor Party’s sources minister, on the advice of the environ- position is on this and I do not want to ment minister, would decide whether or not prejudge it, but I might also say that the to grant export approval. That is very much policy of the previous state Labor government a Commonwealth role and a Commonwealth was very much in line with the actions that responsibility. were supported by the Court coalition govern- 4452 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 ment. I have here a copy of Labor’s state Senator Margetts—Part of that is going to policy on national parks. I have sent a copy be mined as well. of it across to Senator Faulkner and I will Senator CAMPBELL—A tiny corner on seek leave to have it tabled. I will describe it the edge, I might say, Senator Margetts, is to the Senate so that I get the leave, as I going to be mined. I presume you would stop require the leave of all senators. But it is, I the people who are growing potatoes on the am sure, a document that Senator Margetts— farm immediately adjacent to that area. Senator Faulkner—You do not actually Senator Margetts—I am just saying: what need leave, unfortunately. You are in a is it you are getting back—a national park? position of not requiring leave; you are better Senator CAMPBELL—You are actually off. But you would have received leave. I getting a 1,200 hectare area directly to the appreciate the courtesy. west of Lake Jasper—an area that has been Senator CAMPBELL—Thank you, Sena- intensively used for agricultural production. tor Faulkner. The document is a resolution of It is an area which will revegetate very conflict policy which was prepared by the rapidly—I suspect more rapidly than an area Lawrence Labor government. It will not be that has been mined for mineral sands. It lost on senators that Dr Lawrence is now the should be a great addition to the national shadow environment spokesperson. The park. document is entitled ‘Resolution of Conflict I think we can have a good debate on these Policy: A Clear Policy for National Parks’. It environmental issues. It is always good, from goes into some detail about that state the Greens’ point of view, to say that we are government’s policy in relation to activity in just about to lose 300 hectares from the a number of national parks. It makes specific D’Entrecasteaux National Park. I think the exemptions—and I am sure Senator Margetts Greens would do themselves a favour to say would have actively campaigned against this that they actually do appreciate there being an policy when it came out—for Rudall River, extra 1,200 hectares. D’Entrecasteaux National Park and Hamersley Senator Margetts—Who will pay for that Range. revegetation to make it up to national park level? Who will pay for it? Carmen Lawrence very proudly put out this policy under her own name. It specifically Senator CAMPBELL—That is a question allows, under a range of conditions, there to for another day. It is not really my responsi- be exploration in the D’Entrecasteaux Nation- bility. I understand, from my limited experi- al Park. It specifically states that the new ence in that area, that the vegetation re-estab- policy recognises the extremely high conser- lishes itself extremely quickly. vation values of these areas. It talks about the The state Labor Party’s policy when in rich mineral sand deposits which have been government very much envisaged exploration identified in the D’Entrecasteaux National in this region, envisaged an excision of this Park. It specifically refers to excisions of area and its replacement by another area and mining areas from the D’Entrecasteaux Na- envisaged the downstream processing of the tional Park and the replacement of those minerals. That is not to say that Dr Lawrence excised areas with other areas. I think in this has not changed her mind on this. I say that case, as I have said previously, the area that quite sincerely. Parties do change policies is to be excised has already been replaced by from time to time. I hope that the Labor Party an area three times its size and immediately chooses not to be expedient on this matter. adjacent to Lake Jasper. I will table the document entitled ‘Resolu- Senator Margetts—That’s going to be tion of Conflict: A Clear Policy for National mined too. Parks’ prepared by the government of West- ern Australia on 13 November 1990. I hope Senator CAMPBELL—The area that has that opposition senators who choose to take been handed back? part in this debate and vote on this bill at Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4453 some stage in the future will read the policy The government’s apathy towards the that was released by Carmen Lawrence in environment and disregard for the protection November 1990. It very much envisages the of World Heritage values and National Estate process that is going on now. values is becoming increasingly evident. The The Commonwealth does not believe this decision to allow the Port Hinchinbrook is a sensible way to resolve the issue. If the development in North Queensland to go ahead proper environmental processes are followed, and the government’s silence on the excision with the involvement of the federal govern- of land from D’Entrecasteaux National Park ment at either an early or late stage, depend- are two very clear examples of a government ing on when the process is triggered, it should that is prepared to turn a blind eye to devel- ensure that if any mining is to proceed it will opments which threaten areas of environment- proceed in a way that meets the best scientific al significance. standards. I think it is the government’s lack of CSIRO is actively involved in the hydro- leadership on environmental matters that has logical assessments of sandmining taking resulted in this bill being brought before the place in D’Entrecasteaux already and will be Senate. This is, as I understand it, a joint actively involved in the assessment and Democrat and Greens private senators’ bill. hydrology of Lake Jasper. We believe that That is correct, isn’t it, Senator Margetts? that process should be allowed to work and Senator Margetts—Yes. should not be overridden by an interventionist Senator FAULKNER—The bill seeks to act like this. This would create a precedent prohibit mining or mining related activity which would allow the Commonwealth to within the D’Entrecasteaux National Park in intervene in environmental disputes right Western Australia. The bill relies on the around the country. Commonwealth’s corporations powers under Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— paragraph 51(xx) of the constitution to pro- Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (5.57 hibit mining or mining related activities p.m.)—The D’Entrecasteaux National Park within the national park. and particularly the area surrounding Lake Jasper are deserving of environmental protec- Senator Margetts—Unless the minister tion and should not be threatened by the allows it. The minister has to sign it off it. It development of a sandmine. Senators may doesn’t, by itself, prohibit it. recall on 12 September that Senator Margetts Senator FAULKNER—Thank you for that moved general business notice of motion No. interjection, Senator Margetts. If you do not 207. The opposition supported that motion. mind, I will now continue with my speech. During the debate on that motion we made The former Labor government used the clear that it was beholden on the Minister for corporations power in conjunction with the Resources and Energy, Senator Parer, to external affairs power in the Franklin Dam advise the Western Australia government that case. There is therefore a legal precedent for he would not grant a mineral sands export the Commonwealth’s use of this power to licence until the most rigorous environmental ensure the protection of the environment. assessments have been undertaken. In the past the Commonwealth government Senator Campbell—It is a good position has relied on its export control of minerals, in to have. It is the government’s position. the case of Fraser Island, and foreign invest- Senator FAULKNER—I am pleased that ment powers, in the case of Shelbourne Bay, Senator Campbell has indicated that that is to protect the environment from the possible the government’s position. I must say that the adverse impacts of sandmining. I am sure government’s lack of action on this matter they are both instances that senators are very indicates to us that it does not have concern well aware of. about the protection of D’Entrecasteaux It is also instructive to note that, while the National Park and particularly Lake Jasper Hawke government in 1987 used its foreign uppermost in its mind. investments powers to protect Shelbourne 4454 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

Bay, it had indicated that it would have used Senator FAULKNER—This is a govern- its export control powers to ensure that that ment that has certainly shown extraordinary sandmining project did not go ahead if its hypocrisy and I am glad you agree with that, foreign investment powers had not been avail- Senator Campbell. able. I think there is clear indication from Senator Campbell—I said the majority of these past precedents that, when in govern- senators voted for that proposal. ment, Labor’s commitment to protecting the environment was a very genuine one and, Senator FAULKNER—I am pleased to see importantly, it was legally enforced. that you are one coalition senator who has lined up against your government’s policies I said a little earlier—I have said it on a in that area. I appreciate the fact that you are number of occasions recently in the Senate— committed enough on that, as you apparently that I think the Howard government’s leader- are, to make that interjection. Let the Hansard ship on environmental issues has been abso- record show that you are out of step with lutely woeful. I really believe it has been a other members of the Howard government. I pathetic performance from the government do not think you will be holding down your and from the responsible minister, the job as Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister Minister for the Environment (Senator Hill). for the Environment for much longer. I hope Let us look at some of that record. The your voting record improves on some of these government is set to approve the Jabiluka issues. uranium mine adjacent to Kakadu National What is clear is that when the Howard Park. As I said a littler earlier, it has given government actually has the power to protect the green light to Keith Williams’s massive the environment, it shows no leadership. Hinchinbrook resort development despite clear Those who are sponsoring this bill have departmental and scientific advice concluding seized on the corporations power because of that it would have an adverse impact on the the Commonwealth government’s claim that World Heritage values of the adjacent Hin- it had no power to influence the situation at chinbrook channel. Senator Hill has been D’Entrecasteaux National Park until the absolutely exposed on that issue. The stand- company applied for a mineral export licence. over tactics of the Prime Minister (Mr How- Those sponsoring the bill have drafted the ard) and the Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Tim legislation as a challenge to the government Fischer) have also been exposed by the to exercise its powers and protect the opposition during the estimates committee D’Entrecasteaux National Park. process. The bill’s stated purpose is to prohibit exploration mining and mining related activi- This is also a government that has given ties within the national park. The opposition state governments veto powers over the listing is concerned that, as currently drafted, this of World Heritage areas. It is a government bill still leaves the protection of the national that has attempted to abolish its export control park at the discretion of the minister. The powers for minerals—something that a ma- government currently has the power to inter- jority of non-government senators were able vene. Perhaps if the government were truly to stymie in this chamber during the early life concerned about the environment it would of the coalition government. Most recently, intervene. But, without a commitment from we have had a situation where this govern- the Howard government that it would protect ment has announced a massive increase in the the national park, this bill is just as ineffective amount of woodchips to be exported from as the export control powers. Australia. This is also a government that has shown enormous hypocrisy on the issue of We believe that the bill is inadequate in a forest policy, export woodchipping and the number of areas. It does not stipulate which sorts of statements that were— minister a corporation must seek written approval from to undertake mining operations Senator Campbell—I think a majority of in the national park. Is it the Minister for the senators might have agreed to that. Environment or the Minister for Resources Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4455 and Energy? I suppose we could suggest that Environment, Senator Hill, should be aware with this government in office it would not that the area excised includes part of the make a huge amount of difference. But we catchment of Lake Jasper, the largest perma- seriously pose the question: who is the re- nent freshwater lake in the south-west of sponsible minister. Western Australia. I think everyone would There is also no requirement within the bill acknowledge what a magnificent area this is that the minister undertake an environmental and what extraordinary natural values there impact assessment before giving written are there. approval. Under this bill the protection of Senator Campbell—Have you been down D’Entrecasteaux National Park is still not there? guaranteed. It is still at the discretion of the Senator FAULKNER—Yes. I am like minister. Lucky Star. When you have been the Minister The excision of land from the D’Entre- for the Environment you can honestly say, casteaux National Park for mining purposes ‘I’ve been everywhere, man.’ sets a very bad precedent for the management Senator Brownhill—Up a tree, that’s for of national parks. I think this is of particular sure—up the creek with most of your policies, concern, given the recent statement by the though. Minister for Resources and Energy, Senator Parer, who has called for changes to the law Senator FAULKNER—The sad thing to permit mineral exploration and mining in about that was that I was not the minister for wilderness areas, something that has been the environment when I decided to take up subject of a considerable amount of public pruning as a hobby, but I can assure you that debate and public concern and something that everything they say about gardening is true— has been raised by a number of non- ‘Don’t start’ and ‘I am never going to do it government senators in this chamber, not the again’. Siltation, pollution and chemical spills least during recent question times. The and changes to the water table are all poten- D’Entrecasteaux case indicates that so far as tial hazards for both wildlife and vegetation. the Court and Howard governments are There was a clear need for an environmental concerned a national park is only a national assessment and hydrological studies before park as long as it is not required for some- the land was excised. thing else. The area around Lake Jasper is too import- The Australian Heritage Commission has ant to warrant anything less. It is an integral recognised the ecological importance of part of the lake. It is a wetland area that has D’Entrecasteaux National Park and included important values to the lake. The lake is fed much of the park on its Register of the Na- by ground water rather than run-off water. tional Estate. I am pleased to say that the There are major hydrological concerns that if extent of the Register of the National Estate mining were to take place it could have an does appear to be one area of environmental effect on the ground water table and therefore policy and programs that Senator Campbell the lake. seems to be learning about and seems to have The situation of the lake varies from year a bit of an understanding of. I am pleased that to year depending on the rainfall. The link he has learnt a little in his short time on the between the various surface water areas is so coalition front bench about the Register of the complex in the very wet areas that we cannot National Estate. It just goes to show that even have any confidence at all that mining can the most recalcitrant person can learn some- take place without adverse effects. thing about the protection of the environment The complexity of the area in a hydro- in this country. geological sense means the government could The area’s inclusion clearly indicates the not allow mining to take place within any need for Commonwealth government involve- reasonable proximity of Lake Jasper. In the ment in this matter. The Howard government region around Lake Jasper there are declared cannot turn its back. The Minister for the rare flora, many mammals, significant species 4456 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 of birds and species of freshwater fish that government requires specific legislation to have disappeared from other parts of south- protect this National Estate area— western Australia. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— Lake Jasper is the jewel in the crown of Senator Faulkner, your time has expired. D’Entrecasteaux National Park. It has very Senator Faulkner—I seek leave to con- important conservation, recreation and heri- clude my remarks for 30 seconds. tage values. Mining should not take place in The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I this area. There is substantial community am sorry, I have not actually finalised yet concern against this proposal in the lower whether leave is being granted to incorporate. south-west of Western Australia. The area is It is an unusual step to take, I am advised. an important recreation facility for people from Augusta-Margaret River right across to Senator Faulkner—It is not that unusual. Walpole, Manjimup, Northcliffe, Nannup and The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I Pemberton. have not resolved the matter of leave being granted. I have been advised by the Deputy The excision of land from the park is giving Clerk that it is an unusual step to incorporate the mining company an imprimatur to mine. the end of a speech. It is hard to see the difference between granting the excision so the mining company can Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (6.19 p.m.)— do the feasibility study and approving the by leave—I just wanted to point out that in mining. Our opposition to sandmining in the agreeing to leave being granted, the request D’Entrecasteaux area is not a blanket objec- I had in introducing this debate this afternoon tion to sandmining per se. The opposition that both opposition and government members recognises that mineral sands are a valuable speak briefly so this bill could get through resource in the south-west of Western Austral- has been essentially rejected. It has no chance ia. of getting through if every member takes their time. So the effect— Given the time, Madam Acting Deputy The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— President, and the fact that there are one or So you are debating the issue, Senator Brown. two jewels of wisdom that I would like to It is not appropriate. Will you take your chair. have covered in this second reading speech, You are out of order. Is leave granted for I seek leave to have the last few paragraphs Senator Faulkner to incorporate the remaining of my speech on the second reading incorpo- paragraphs of his speech? rated in the Hansard. Senator Campbell—As is normal practice, The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT I would be happy to grant leave, subject to (Senator Patterson)—Is leave granted? having a quick scan of it. Senator Campbell—I would like make a Senator Faulkner—Now can I have leave short explanation. I am happy to grant leave, for 20 seconds to conclude my remarks and but I do hope that within that document he is respond— tabling he is going to explain why he does The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Is not support Dr Lawrence’s policy on excising leave granted for 20 seconds to conclude this area for the national park. Is there any- remarks? Leave is granted. thing in the speech on that, Senator Faulkner? Senator FAULKNER (New South Wales— Senator FAULKNER—Thank you for Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) (6.21 granting leave. If I can just respond, Madam p.m.)—The opposition does not believe that Acting Deputy President: I appreciate the fact the Commonwealth government requires that Senator Campbell has granted leave and specific legislation to protect this National I think that you will find the pearls of wisdom Estate area. The Howard government should in the Hansard well worth your consideration. indicate that it would use its export control In answer to your question, the opposition powers to protect the area. Nevertheless, the does not believe that the Commonwealth opposition supports the bill in the Senate as Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4457 a further indication of our objection to the Clearly, the above requirements are reasonable Howard government’s lack of leadership on requests of any government with an interest in environmental matters. applying appropriate environmental standards. The Court Government has ignored this request and The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I excised the land. take it that leave is being granted for Senator Faulkner to incorporate the remaining para- This is typical of the Court Government. They have ignored all the intrinsic values of the area, whether graphs of his speech when it has been viewed tourism or environmental, and without a proper by the government. If there is no objection by scientific assessment of the area they have proceed- the government, it will be taken that leave is ed with the excision of a portion of this park so granted. that an overseas company can proceed with its application to mine for mineral sands. Leave granted. The Opposition believes the protection of The remainder of Senator Faulkner’s D’Entrecasteaux National Park is primarily a state speech read as follows— government matter. The Court Government should not have excised the land from the National Park The excision of land from the park is giving the and should not allow the area to be mined for mining company an imprimatur to mine. It is hard mineral sands. to see the difference between granting the excision so the mining company can do the feasibility study The Opposition does not believe that the Common- and approving the mining. wealth Government requires specific legislation to protect this National Estate area and that the Our opposition to sand mining in the D’Entre- Howard Government should indicate that it would casteaux area is not a blanket objection to sand use its export control powers to protect the area. mining per se. The Opposition recognises that Nevertheless, the Opposition supports the Bill in mineral sands is a valuable resource in the south the Senate as a further indication of our objection west of Western Australia. However, mineral sands to the Howard Government’s lack of leadership on occur in reasonable quantity throughout the south environmental matters. west region and the enormous conservation values of the Lake Jasper area far outweigh the possible Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (6.20 p.m.)— benefits of allowing mining to occur so close to I rise to speak to the Democrats’ and Greens’ such a sensitive and pristine environment. bill to protect D’Entrecasteaux National Park. If mining proceeds irreparable damage will be done There is at present a movement by this to the largest freshwater lake and the most import- government and by the mining industry to ant anthropological site in the south west of open up protected areas for mining. I am Western Australia. sorry to say that this is a move which is D’Entrecasteaux National Park is an area of wanted by some state governments as well. enormous diversity in land formation and flora and fauna. Further research must be conducted before We are seeing a strange phenomenon which we make any decisions about the management of I will call ‘flexible borders’. Yes, it is a the entire park, and certainly about any form of national park; yes, it needs protecting; yes, it development within it. has important values—but we are just going That is why the Western Australia state opposition to pop in an open-cut mine, complete with proposed a motion to halt the excision pending— infrastructure, including tailings ponds, pro- . a report from the CSIRO on the hydrology of cessing plant and trucking routes and, in this Lake Jasper area and the likely impact of mining case, a sand mine complete with dredge. on this lake; I do not know what these governments . an environmental assessment of the proposal to think a national park is about, but our undermine in this area at the level of an ERMP; standing is that it is about protecting an area . the requirement that ministerial conditions arising in its own right for future generations. Just from the ERMP include revegetation to accept- four per cent of Australia is designated as able vegetation standards so that the locations national park. By our calculation, that leaves may be incorporated in the park at a later date; and the mining industry with a fair bit of the rest of the country. . a statement by the proponent outlining its commitments to secondary processing of the mineral The Democrats passionately believe that we sands mined. must protect national parks and the protected 4458 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 areas that we have left. Furthermore, we must tions, to protect areas on the National Estate move to increase them to save our rapidly and to prevent states trading away our pre- depleting biodiversity and our special places. cious places. We have the right, under the We do not accept this outrageous attempt by constitution, to intervene. the mining industry to get their hands onto There are not too many more incompatible our national parks and protected areas, and we activities within a wetland national park area will fight every step of the way to see that it than sandmining. It represents extensive does not happen. disruption to the environment. That is why I D’Entrecasteaux itself may not be an urge the parliament to pass this bill. I look untouched wilderness, but it is an important forward to its speedy passage through the wetland area—so important that it is listed in Senate and the lower house. ANCA’s book Australia’s important wetlands—yet the Western Australian govern- Senator CRANE (Western Australia) (6.25 ment wants to excise this area for a rapacious p.m.)—I rise to make a contribution to the sand mine operation. I am sure that the second reading debate on the D’Entrecasteaux Western Australian government would say National Park Protection Bill put forward by that it is just a bit of national park, and then Senator Margetts and Senator Murray. The the next time a money-grubbing greedy first point I wish to raise refers to the head of mining company comes along it will excise power under which they have introduced this another bit and then another, all with the bill. I find it quite remarkable the way in same justification. The fact is that seven- which they are using section 109 of the eighths of this park is pegged for mining. It constitution. It states: is imperative that the federal government stop When a law of the State is inconsistent with a law this in its tracks in the first instance. of the Commonwealth, the latter shall prevail— Where does this kind of action leave our that is, the Commonwealth law shall prevail unique places, our wild species? Where do the over the state— people who love the peace of protected areas and the former shall, to the extent of the inconsis- go? If economics is all this government thinks tency, be invalid. about, what about the economics of the tourist industry, which is, I might say, very substan- The important point is that, because this can tial in Western Australia? People want to visit only apply to corporations and this legislation unspoiled areas. I think it is time governments is split between foreign corporations and recognise that. Australian corporations, if this legislation were carried we would see a much tougher The federal government has a definite test for individual non-corporation mining responsibility in this area because this nation- operations than for corporations. So it is al park is on the Register of the National giving a softer test for foreign owned corpora- Estate. This bill will give the constitutional tions and Australian owned corporations than power for intervention and provide an import- non-corporation business structures. ant precedent in terms of the use of corporations powers. In fact, Justice Wilcox express- It is interesting to look at this. Under the ed the view that it would be possible to Western Australian legislation, for those not prohibit trading corporations adversely affect- covered by this—and I think we are all very ing items on the Register of the National aware in this place of what the corporations Estate. The most respected authority on the power means under the constitution—a Australian constitution, Professor Leslie Zines, decision to excise has to be passed by both insists that the Commonwealth may regulate houses of the Western Australian parliament. and control all acts of trading and financial The situation then has to exist under the corporations for the purposes of trade, includ- Western Australian legislation— ing mining. Senator Margetts—It has already gone Clearly, we have many reasons for interven- through both houses. It went through like tion—to protect the area for future genera- that! Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4459

Senator CRANE—It is important that this have time to go through. One item relates to be explained because it proves the flaw in some comments made by the Leader of the your bill. It then requires an EPA assessment. Opposition in the Senate, Senator Faulkner, Following that, under the processes of the when he was somewhat derogatory towards Western Australian law—and this law was Senator Parer. It has become a hallmark of brought in in 1991 under the then Lawrence Senator Faulkner now. Every time he gets on government—it requires both the Minister for his feet, he has to have a bash or a belt at Mines and the Minister for the Environment somebody. Most of the points are answered to sign off on the deal. It has not all been by Senator Parer in a letter that was written signed off yet. to the Financial Review on Thursday, 17 Your legislation would make it easier for October 1996 and headed ‘Australia world corporations—and I make particular reference leader in modern mining practice’. I table that to foreign corporations—to mine in national article. parks. I find that extraordinary in legislation The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT coming from the Greens and the Australian (Senator Patterson)—Are you seeking leave Democrats combined. I suggest, without being to table that? uncharitable, that you have not done your Senator CRANE—I do not have to seek homework into the actual impact of this piece leave to table it. of legislation if—heaven forbid—it were ever to become law. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— There are other roles the Commonwealth Yes, you do need to seek leave to table it. has in this, which Senator Campbell has Senator CRANE—Do I? Okay. I shall seek outlined. I will not go into those other than to leave. refer to the requirements of export licences Senator McKiernan—Only the frontbench- and the genuine role of the Commonwealth ers don’t. where the law would apply equally to whoever was carrying out the operation, regard- Senator CRANE—Oh! There are different less of whether they were corporations or not. rules in this place, are there? One thing that is very important in dealing The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT— with legislation is to have consistency in the Are you seeking leave to table those docu- impact it will have across all sectors of the ments? If you are, the convention is that you community. This legislation is not consistent. show them. Senator Margetts—I did not see you Senator CRANE—I understand that. I did complaining about using the corporations not realise there was a different rule for power over IR—to take away workers’ rights. frontbenchers and backbenchers. I shall have The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT the articles circulated in a moment or two, but (Senator Patterson)—Order! Senator I shall first nominate what they are. The next Margetts! Do not be tempted to respond, paper is headed ‘The D’Entrecasteaux Nation- Senator Crane. al Park excision of mineralised area’, which has a significant amount of information in it. Senator CRANE—I will take your advice, The following one is headed ‘Process likely Madam Deputy President. We will have a to be followed regarding Jangardup South’. detailed debate on that particular subject when Then there is a map of the area which I it comes forward. Let me tell you, I am really would like to deal with and which I also looking forward to it. I have been waiting for present here. a long time to have the next debate on IR and I am going to enjoy it. In addition to this, I thank Senator McKiernan for having passed to me a pam- Senator O’Chee—Six years. phlet which I do not believe I have received Senator CRANE—A little longer than that, as yet, although it might be in Perth. I also too. There are a number of articles that I seek leave to table that pamphlet. I thank would like to table which I am not going to Senator McKiernan for this document, which 4460 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 is headed ‘Jangardup South project’. I seek go back into the park will be significantly leave to have that tabled as well. That being increased. the case, if I can get them handed around, There is also rehabilitation that goes with senators can have a look at them and make a that. The rehabilitation in the mining areas of decision one way or the other, but I have the south-west of Western Australia is un- given everyone an indication of what they are. doubtedly world class. A number of oper- I will move to my next point, and there are ations there have won world awards for their some aspects of this I wish to make. In doing rehabilitation programs. I am absolutely so, I re-emphasise the point that the legisla- confident that this will occur in this situation tion which is operating in Western Australia with Cable Sands. in terms of this—subject to a couple of minor The next point relates to a point Senator amendments—is the legislation of the previ- Brown made in his contribution. I think I ous Labor government in Western Australia. have got this right; I am not in the business So, in effect, there is no real difference of misrepresenting people. He asked who between either major parties in Western would want mining within 300 metres of the Australia, my home state. lake. The reality of this proposal and the operations involved is that the land being put The only difference of note between the into the park on the other side of the lake— parties over the mining issue in national parks land which is under the control of CALM, as is that Premier Lawrence proposed that there all public lands in Western Australia are would be no mining in national parks. How- controlled by CALM—is agricultural land. If ever, in the recognition of high resource we were quite honest about it, it is far more values in five of the 62 national parks, special likely that there would be damage to the lake provisions were made to allow for the con- from fertilisers used on farming land than tinued exploration and excision of mining from any mining operation, although I am leases. With the excision of small areas from told that this has not happened. That is advice two national parks—Watheroo and Neera- I have been given, and I have no reason to bup—only three national parks would be question that. I really think the point that has subject to exploration and mining. I will not been raised there is not valid. go over that any further, because Senator Campbell has already touched on those There are a number of benefits from the aspects of it. I just make that point. proposal which I would like to highlight, and I have touched on some of these briefly. The As we work through the actual aspects of first is that the state’s conservation estate will the proposal—and I have not got the maps be increased in area, although there will be a right now to do that—we find that the propo- decrease of three square kilometres in the area sal states that 368 hectares will be available of the national park in the interim. Once for mining. In return, 1,083 hectares of mining is completed and restoration of native private land will be transferred to the exec- vegetation is at an acceptable stage, the area utive director of the Department of Conserva- of the class C reserve will be returned to the tion and Land Management. That is a ratio of national park. The national park area will be three to one, bearing in mind that, when the increased by about 10 square kilometres mining operation is done, the original 368 ultimately. hectares will also be returned to the national park. In fact, there will be, over time, a net The next point I want to make in terms of gain of 1,083 hectares of private land. this relates to the improvement of water quality in the south-west of WA. This is a I also make the point that much of the area very important benefit from the proposal. It is to be mined—as has already been stated—is required and a lot more work has to be done. former grazing land or private land. When we The water quality in Lake Jasper will be talk about this area, we are talking about an better protected. Cable has already ceased area that has been extensively grazed for intensive farming practices on its private land, many, many years. In fact, the area that will which has thereby increased the protective Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4461 buffer between Lake Jasper and the nearest way—I emphasise again—it relates to foreign farm land from the 300 metres that I have corporations and corporations of Australian already mentioned to 2,600 metres—which is origin. nearly nine times further away. This will be On those grounds alone, I believe we permanent once the mining has been ap- should not support this particular legislation. proved. But we should also take into account the The other point is that employment and environment, the people who are working wealth generation will continue with a well- hands on, the people who have the scientific established mining company which has a knowledge and background. Once again, there good reputation for mine rehabilitation and is a diminution of that particular aspect. native vegetation restoration. Parts of the private land which are partly cleared could be This bill also runs into the problem of the added to the national park as the flora is right of a state—in this case, the right of returned to suitable quality, or used for other Western Australia—to manage land. That purposes, such as sport and other recreational right is clearly spelt out in the constitution. It activities, within the national park without is my understanding that it would require the further clearing of native vegetation. As to High Court to say whether this piece of any perceived threat to Lake Jasper if mining proposed legislation overrides the rights of the proceeds, I re-emphasise the points I made states to manage land. about the buffer and farm fertilisers and the I conclude by saying that I do not think that threat to water quality. this bill has been carefully thought through. But I come back now to where I started and It is fundamentally a political stunt. Were it restate the fact that I find it remarkable that to become law, the environment, mining we have a piece of legislation before this operations and all the aspects that go with chamber which will establish lesser standards, them in Western Australia would be far worse lesser requirements for dealing with the off and nowhere near as well managed, con- management of national parks by corpora- trolled and disciplined as they currently are. tions, particularly foreign corporations, than The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT exist under the state legislation. If a (Senator Patterson)—Senator Crane, in his corporation’s power were being used to speech, sought leave to table a number of improve the situation, I could understand the documents. Is leave granted? objectives behind these measures. But there will be far less scrutiny, with no reference Leave granted. whatsoever to environmental protection Senator BISHOP (Western Australia) (6.42 assessments and no reference whatsoever to p.m.)—I rise to speak in the debate on the who will manage the land in that particular D’Entrecasteaux National Park Protection Bill area in the bill. 1996. The bill, as tabled, certainly has the We know who has responsibility for the hallmarks of brevity and simplicity. The management of land in Western Australia— consequences of the bill, should it become CALM. It is an organisation that was set up law, are the exact opposite of those earlier many years ago. It has changed its name a descriptions. The bill, were it to become law, couple of times but, essentially, it has been would have enormous ramifications both the same organisation for the last 40 or 50 short-term and long-term. Let us first look at years. When we analyse the cost benefits of the pertinent aspects of the bill. The preamble the proposal before us we see that land says: management in Western Australia would have A Bill for an Act to protect land that is or was a significantly less control. The disciplines part of the D’Entrecasteaux National Park from required would be significantly less. This mining and other intrusive activities, and for related proposal would also override the present purposes. provisions under the Soil Conservation Act Going to the substance of the bill, clause 3 and a number of other acts because of the defines ‘corporation’ as meaning: 4462 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

(a) a foreign corporation to which paragraph 51 mined from what is known as the resolution (xx) of the Constitution applies; or of conflict policy, which was tabled in this (b) a trading or financial corporation to which that debate. paragraph applies. Fourthly, the bill expressly uses the corpo- A ‘national park area’ means an area that: rations power to attempt to create a national (a) is part of the D’Entrecasteaux National Park park. I know that the extent of the corpora- in Western Australia; or tions power has been reviewed by the High (b) was at any time part of that National Park. Court of late. But even with the current Clause 4 is headed ‘Protection of national composition of the High Court, it seems a park area’. It says: long bow to suggest the internal regulation of public companies extends to the creation of A corporation must not, without the written approval of the Minister, carry out any of the following national parks and regulation of mining operations in a national park area: activities. (a) mining operations or exploratory operations In this context, the bill is deficient, and in connection with mining operations; apparently deliberately so, because it does not (b) excavation operations; seek to regulate the activities of private (c) any other prescribed operations. companies, trusts, family trusts, partnerships and the like. It is not beyond the wit of The intent of the bill is clear. It seeks to humankind to establish one of those entities prohibit mining or exploratory operations in to engage in mining activities in a national connection with mining operations in the park. It causes me to question the intent and national park areas as defined. It seeks to credibility of the park when there is no prohibit excavation operations and any other attempt to regulate other legal entities. prescribed operations in the national park areas as defined. Fifthly and most importantly, the bill will have the direct consequence of putting out of At the outset, I wish to express very strong work some 80 directly employed miners. With reservations about the thrust of this bill. I will a multiplier effect, this means almost 300 itemise those reservations under five separate people have employment directly or indirectly headings. associated with the current mine. With the Firstly, it is in part inconsistent with— families of those persons, the number totals indeed diametrically in opposition to—the some 900. They are indeed weighty matters national policy of the Australian Labor Party. that have caused me to review my attitude to We should be clear on that aspect. The policy this bill. of the Australian Labor Party is to prohibit On the other side of this debate, one must mining in national parks and I do not dissent acknowledge the views held in the community from that very sound policy. However, the about mining, resources or extraction activi- national policy position of the Australian ties and national parks. Strong views are held Labor Party expressly authorises exploration concerning these issues and we would be activities in national parks. So, to the extent fools to ignore that the Greens and the Aus- that this bill prohibits exploration activities in tralian Democrats received between seven per national parks, it is contrary to the policy of cent and 10 per cent of the primary vote in the Australian Labor Party. different states around March this year. Their Secondly, it is contrary to the policy adopt- vote is certainly centred around green issues. ed by the caucus of the Western Australian I acknowledge those views exist in the com- state parliamentary Labor Party. I shall return munity and properly are up for discussion and to that policy in more detail later. resolution. Thirdly, it is contrary to what has been the Indeed, earlier this week, there was a debate practice of all Western Australian govern- about logging and woodchips in Tasmania. In ments since 1990, under the leadership of my room I listened to the contribution of premiers Dowding, Lawrence and Court. That Senator Brown from Tasmania. He spoke with position, as referred to earlier, can be deter- great feeling about the insect colonies, the Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4463 various species of fauna, the different colonies new site. That new mine site is known as of marsupials and the importance of trees. Jangardup South and is about four kilometres This morning there was some debate over live south of the current mine site. sheep exports. Senator Margetts essentially It is the proposal of the company to mine argued for rights for sheep. that site, and the excision bill, as outlined I do not denigrate those concerns and wish earlier, has passed through both houses of the those parties well in the prosecution of their Western Australian parliament. It is the claims. But in the scheme of things, if the proposal of the company to transfer the issue is about priorities, my priority can only existing work force to that new mine site and be that of the men and women of the local to employ some additional 20 or 30 workers. communities, the miners and their families If the bill under discussion today became law, currently employed on the existing mine site, it would prohibit that mining activity now not the subject of this bill. excised from the national park. The proposal I believe it is sensible to avoid polarisation is thus quite contentious. and taking extreme positions in this debate. This matter was considered by the Western Polarisation, extreme positions and positional Australian parliamentary Labor Party in June negotiations are ultimately self-defeating and of this year. That body, in resolving the issue, intellectually barren. I suggest that all parties determined to apply what is known as the in this debate—and it appears to be coming resolution of conflict policy. back onto the agenda if this bill is any example of the future—need to avoid denigration The resolution of conflict policy was creat- of their opponents. More importantly, they ed around 1990 when, as I recall, Dr Law- need to cease adopting intractable positions rence was the leader of the state parliamentary and they need to seek to find a middle path Labor Party in Western Australia. That policy or compromise in this debate concerning was devised to try to resolve the conflicting mining activities and reservation of parks. Green and mining interests in the area of In this respect, I would suggest to the national parks. That policy was applied by the Senate that we are well served by the actions Lawrence government and, as I understand it, of the Western Australian parliamentary Labor is applied by the current government, al- Party and successive state governments since though I stand to be corrected on that issue. 1990 in Western Australia. We should look at Let us examine that policy because it offers the history of mining in this area and the a very sensible middle path to the resolution mechanisms adopted by the Lawrence Labor of these issues. In respect of the D’Entre- government in 1990 to resolve the issue of casteaux National Park, the policy expressly mining in national parks. applies four principles. It says that further Firstly, it should be noted that there has exploration of the national park is expressly been a mine site extracting titanium, a mineral authorised for 36 months from November sand, in Jangardup since 1994. The area was 1990. Secondly, after this period no more explored in 1987 and has been developed than one per cent of the total land area will be since 1993; and extraction activity has con- excised from the park. Thirdly, additional tinued since around mid-1994. The area of the land of equal or greater size will be incorpo- existing mine site was, and is, immediately rated into the park. Fourthly, the relevant adjacent to the national park under discussion. company will commit to value adding and The existing mine site, not the subject of the secondary processing of the mined product in bill, will be exhausted in late 1997 and early Western Australia. 1998. So that resolution of conflict policy, as Earlier this year, Cable Sands Pty Ltd outlined in those four points, was adopted by applied to the Western Australian government the parliamentary Labor Party in 1990 when to excise an area of approximately 380 hec- Dr Lawrence was the leader of the govern- tares on the boundary of the national park and ment in that day. It was applied throughout sought parliamentary approval to mine that the life of her government and, as I under- 4464 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 stand it, has been applied by governments evening. But, hopefully, at some time in the after that time. future, as a senator for Western Australia, I The state parliamentary Labor Party en- will have an opportunity to make a more in- dorsed those principles and added a number depth and detailed contribution on this matter of other restrictions in June of this year when which is extremely important to the citizens it considered this issue. Firstly, it required a of Western Australia. report from CSIRO relating to hydrology of My attention was drawn earlier today to a the Lake Jasper area; secondly, an environ- comment on the bottom of a pamphlet pub- mental assessment of the proposed mine site; lished earlier this year on the issue by the thirdly, revegetation of the mine site to D’Entrecasteaux Coalition, an environmental acceptable nature vegetation standards; and, group operating out of Denmark in Western fourthly, a further statement concerning a Australia. On the bottom of the front page of commitment to secondary processing. the pamphlet, they make the statement which So the Western Australian state parlia- I wholeheartedly endorse: mentary Labor Party brought a very moderate If you haven’t seen this breathtaking part of the and sensible approach to this problem of State, set aside time to pay it a visit. The scenery mining in national parks. It followed long- is unforgettable. standing policy established by the Lawrence They are obviously talking about the national Labor government: it accepted excision of the park in the area. boundary area of the national park for the The company, Cable Sands Western Aus- purpose of mining; it required the company to tralia, appear to appreciate that point of view purchase and gift to the state a parcel of land as well. In a pamphlet which Senator Crane of equal or superior condition to that which tabled earlier in the debate, they also draw had been excised; it required complete reha- attention to the environmental aspects of the bilitation of the mine site at the conclusion of area where sand mining is proposed. In that the mining process; and, finally, it required information document, they draw attention to value adding of the mined product. the scientific surveys that have occurred: the I would submit to the Senate that this is a hydrological study of Lake Jasper; the die- most sensible and balanced position. It pro- back survey; the vegetation studies; the fauna tects the long-term integrity of the park; studies; and the Linnean studies of Lake enlarges the size of the park; protects the Jasper. They also take account of the Aborigi- vegetation, the flora and the fauna by requir- nal interests in the area, and I am quite ing rehabilitation; allows development, wealth appreciative that they do. creation, value adding and employment to Some representatives of the company came grow; resolves conflict; is not all for one side to Canberra earlier this week and sought to or the other, but it does protect the long-term meet with myself and other Labor senators interests of greens and conservationists; from Western Australia. I was certainly glad advances the immediate interests of miners, I had the opportunity to meet them. I met mine workers and their families; and is a with Mr Ken Mills and Mr Christopher considered and rational approach to resolution Davies to discuss the matter and to have them of these seemingly intractable documents. I put their points of view to me as a senator commend that resolution of conflict policy to representing the state of Western Australia. I the Senate for consideration. make this point very clearly so that there is Senator McKIERNAN (Western Australia) no confusion: Mr Mills and Mr Davies left (6.57 p.m.)—I endorse the comments made by the consultation that I had with them under no my colleague who preceded me in this debate, misapprehension that no commitments were Senator Bishop, and, indeed, the comments by given one way or the other from myself to my leader in the Senate, Senator Faulkner, support their proposal for mining in that earlier on this legislation before the chamber. particular region of my state. I appreciate that there is not a great deal of I have obviously followed the debate on the time for me to make a contribution this matter. It has been the subject of quite con- Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4465 siderable debate in Western Australia. My D’ENTRECASTEAUX NATIONAL colleague Senator Bishop has referred to some PARK PROTECTION BILL 1996 of the debates that have taken place in both the upper house and the lower house of the Suspension of Standing Orders state parliament. Unlike my colleagues in the Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) state parliament of Western Australia, I have (7.04 p.m.)—Pursuant to contingent notice, I not had the opportunity to do an on-site move: inspection of the proposal. One of the things that I put to company representatives when I That so much of the standing orders be suspend- met with them on Monday of this week was ed as would prevent Senator Margetts moving a that I would like to do not only an on-the- motion relating to the conduct of the business of the Senate, namely, a motion to provide for general ground inspection, but when you look at a business order of the day No. 54 (D’Entrecasteaux map of Lake Jasper, one appreciates that the National Park Protection Bill 1996) to be called on only way you can get to it is by foot, so I as the first item of business on Friday, 18 October would also like to fly over the area in order 1996 and to have precedence over all other busi- to get a proper appreciation. ness that day till determined. We have heard today that there is support in In the pamphlet which Senator Crane tabled the Labor Party for this bill. We have just earlier, there is a photograph which shows the heard from Senator McKiernan that he hopes lake, the proposed mining area and the area he will have an opportunity to contribute to that Cable Sands proposed to transfer in the debate in the future. I am rarely in a exchange for the area that they want to mine. position to grant or assist in granting Senator Quite clearly and quite graphically, the photo- McKiernan’s wishes, but this might be one of graph contained in the pamphlet shows some those occasions. There is stated support for of the area that is being handed back. I the bill by the Labor Party and this is an thought it looked like an area that had been opportunity to make sure we can quickly mined previously. It does not make a particu- finish the debate tomorrow morning and bring larly pretty picture in the brochure that the it to a vote. company put out. The photographs contained in a different publication, to which I have had Question put: access, put the matter in a somewhat different That the motion (Senator Margetts’s) be agreed light. But I do not think you could do any to. better than see what the proposal is all about at first hand. The Senate divided. [7.05 p.m.] The debate on the proposal for this project (The President—Senator the Hon. Margaret will go on for some considerable period. The Reid) debate in the Senate on this bill is a useful Ayes ...... 9 adjunct to that overall debate. Noes ...... 51 —— Majority ...... 42 The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! The —— time allotted for the consideration of general AYES business has expired. Allison, L. Bourne, V.* Brown, B. Kernot, C. Lees, M. H. Margetts, D. LEAVE OF ABSENCE Murray, A. Stott Despoja, N. Woodley, J. Motion (by Senator Carr)—by leave— NOES Bishop, M. Boswell, R. L. D. agreed to: Brownhill, D. G. C. Calvert, P. H. Campbell, I. G. Carr, K. That leave of absence be granted to Senator Chapman, H. G. P. Childs, B. K. Faulkner for 18 October 1996 for medical reasons. Collins, J. M. A. Collins, R. L. 4466 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

NOES tempted to do this in the other place last July Colston, M. A. Conroy, S.* and, after having failed, they decided to set in Cook, P. F. S. Coonan, H. place an inquiry in a further effort to discredit Crane, W. Crowley, R. A. Denman, K. J. Eggleston, A. the minister. Evans, C. V. Ferguson, A. B. Through the numbers in the Senate, the Ferris, J Foreman, D. J. inquiry went to a Senate references committee Forshaw, M. G. Gibbs, B. Herron, J. Hill, R. M. on which the opposition has a majority. I Hogg, J. Kemp, R. think that was inappropriate, but that is an Knowles, S. C. Lundy, K. argument for another time. The opposition’s Macdonald, I. Macdonald, S. report is a last ditch stand to bring the MacGibbon, D. J. Mackay, S. minister to task—and what a weak attempt it McGauran, J. J. J. McKiernan, J. P. is. Nothing has come out of this inquiry, after Murphy, S. M. Neal, B. J. O’Brien, K. W. K. O’Chee, W. G. weeks of evidence and close interrogation by Panizza, J. H. Parer, W. R. the opposition, that was not known before. No Patterson, K. C. L. Reid, M. E. additional information has come to light that Reynolds, M. Sherry, N. has not already been forwarded by the Tambling, G. E. J. Tierney, J. minister, firstly, in his statement to the parlia- Watson, J. O. W. West, S. M. ment on 26 June and, secondly, in his subse- Woods, R. L. quent letter to the Speaker on 19 July. * denotes teller All the opposition majority report can come Question so resolved in the negative. up with were the following recommendations: COMMITTEES firstly, that Mr Downer be requested to appear before the committee to give evidence; sec- Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade ondly, that the Senate order the Minister for Legislation Committee Foreign Affairs to provide the committee with Membership more documents and more information; and, The PRESIDENT—Order! I have received thirdly, an extension of time for the commit- a letter from the Leader of the Opposition in tee to report to the Senate on terms of refer- the Senate seeking to vary the membership of ence (d) and (f) by one month after the first a standing committee. two recommendations are complied with. This is a pretty weak effort. This is after putting Motion (by Senator Brownhill) agreed to: five senior AusAID and DFAT officials That Senator Hogg be discharged as a substitute through an interrogation, which included over member from the Foreign Affairs, Defence and 900 questions, over a period of nine hours in Trade Legislation Committee from 3.30 p.m. on 22 four separate sessions. October 1996. The senior officers who faced this barrage Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade included: two deputy secretaries, a first References Committee assistant secretary and two assistant secreta- Report ries from DFAT; and the Director-General of Debate resumed from 15 October, on AusAID. AusAID and DFAT also submitted motion by Senator Forshaw: a comprehensive 105-page joint submission. As well, a considerable amount of additional That the Senate take note of the report. material has since been provided in writing by Senator SANDY MACDONALD (New AusAID and DFAT. The government has South Wales) (7.14 p.m.)—I rise to support been entirely open and cooperative. The only the government members’ minority report into information not provided was information the abolition of DIFF, the development import which no government would consider releas- finance facility. This inquiry was nothing ing due to considerations of national interest; more than a cynical attempt by the opposition that being the confidentiality that exists to discredit the Minister for Foreign Affairs, between governments and their officials and Mr Alexander Downer. The opposition at- inter-government communications—all of this Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4467 in a futile attempt to bring the minister into the selection process at the time of the disrepute. scheme’s termination. It is worth noting that the minister’s non- Whilst the majority report adequately appearance was in accordance with proper describes the scheme’s history and evolution, procedure and consistent with the long tradi- the manner in which the opposition members tion observed by governments of both persua- have interpreted aspects of the evidence fails sions that ministers from the House of Repre- to take into account both the breadth of the sentatives do not appear before Senate com- evidence presented to the committee and the mittees. We can all well remember Mr economic imperatives underpinning the Keating’s famous statement in December decision to terminate the scheme. It must be 1992, where he said: remembered that this government inherited a Then you want a Minister from the House of $8 billion deficit on 2 March. It is sensible Representatives chamber to wander over to the that some contribution be made to that from unrepresentative chamber and account for himself. the aid budget. It would not be possible, nor You have got to be joking. Whether the Treasurer desirable, to exempt the aid budget while wished to go there or not, I would forbid him going other departments and programs bear the full to the Senate to account to this unrepresentative swill over there— brunt of cost cutting. That was the reply to a request of the Senate Finally, I would like to say a few words in Select Committee on the Functions, Powers regard to the equal impact on the Australian and Operation of the Australian Loan Council economy and on those Australian companies for both the Prime Minister and the Treasurer who had been involved in the DIFF scheme. to appear. I also recall that, in 1994 in the Whilst the evidence presented to the commit- Senate select committee on the print media of tee did not enable a definitive assessment which I was a member, we attempted to call regarding the extent to which DIFF provided the Treasurer to come before the committee industry assistance to exporters to be made, to answer some queries about the operation of the evidence provided by some company the FIRB. The Treasurer refused to provide representatives indicated that a concessional documents and, in fact, instructed officers not finance package was necessary in order to to give evidence. engage in project negotiations with certain countries. The other recommendation in the majority report that I take particular exception to is Whilst individual companies detailed the that the withdrawal of funding has had a commercial benefits flowing to them as a serious effect on Australia-Indonesia relations result of winning DIFF support, the net effect or in fact on Australia’s relations with the on the Australian economy is unclear. There four DIFF recipient countries or in fact other have been a number of inquiries provided by regional countries in east Asia and the South the government, some of which remained Pacific. As the minority report states: reasonably unpublished, including making . . . Australia’s relations with China, Indonesia, DIFF better, which bore that position out. Vietnam and the Philippines are multi-faceted and multi-layered and not so fragile as to fracture over Debate interrupted. the termination of the DIFF scheme and that the aid relationship is only one small part of the overall Consideration bilateral relationships. It further states that the government’s decision Question resolved in the affirmative on the to provide additional funding of $64 million following order of the day without further for high priority projects, able to be nomi- debate during consideration of committee nated by recipient country governments, will reports and government responses: go some considerable distance toward accom- Treaties-Joint Standing Committee-First report- modating those high priority project applica- Treaties tabled on 10 and 11 September 1996 tions that had significantly advanced through (Senator Calvert) 4468 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

ADJOURNMENT communities to accept the need to treat The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT diseases in dogs and vaccinate dogs in camps. (Senator Crowley)—It being 7.20 p.m., under Only experience would have brought that sessional order I propose the question: problem to light. That the Senate do now adjourn. Also relevant is the fact that Aborigines in remote communities do not like living in Aboriginal Health western style housing, but prefer to live in Senator EGGLESTON (Western Australia) open style accommodation in which there is (7.20 p.m.)—There was an article in the little protection from the elements so that Canberra Times this morning headed ‘Abo- babies and older children get frequent chest riginal infant mortality three times that of infections. Last November, I attended the others’. I would like to say a little about Kimberley medical conference in Broome at Aboriginal health in Australia and Western which Aboriginal health issues were dis- Australia in particular. Much has been said cussed. recently in the media about Aboriginal health and, more specifically, World Vision over the One of the problems which was highlighted last week or so has criticised the record of was that resources are not unlimited and Aboriginal health in Western Australia. medical services can only be provided to reasonably permanent communities. Servicing I would like to put on record in the Senate difficulties arose with the proliferation of the other side of the story about Aboriginal temporary out-stations located away from the health issues in Western Australia and I am main communities. The out-stations often sure in other parts of Australia as well. The comprise only small groups of people and it truth of the matter is that, while there are is just not physically possible for medical certainly still significant health problems in staff to maintain services to them. The same the area of Aboriginal health, a great deal of applies to the provision of other government progress has been made. I think the very funded infrastructure such as housing, water, dedicated people who work in the Aboriginal sewerage, power, schools and roads. health area deserve to be recognised for their contributions. Instead of a constant stream of The health problems faced by adult Abo- disheartening brickbats, I would like to see rigines include a high incidence of blood those dedicated health workers receive a few pressure and diabetes which is undoubtedly bouquets. related to the adoption of a western diet. The The most important point I would like to key to dealing with these problems is to make is that, were the solutions to the prob- change the diet of Aboriginals, but that is lems of Aboriginal heath simple, the problems more easily said than done. It seems that which exist in Aboriginal health would have Aboriginals are genetically disposed to storing been solved long ago. Were it just a matter of excess energy as fat. This is said to be due to providing more funding for Aboriginal health, the effect of the so-called thrifty gene. A again the problems would have been solved Monash University study showed a few years long ago. ago that when Aborigines are returned to their traditional diet they lose weight and their The reason why Aboriginal health prob- diabetes and high blood pressure gets better. lems have persisted is precisely because the whole question of Aboriginal health is very There have been significant improvements complex indeed. Factors which are relevant to in the health of Aboriginal people in Western the problems in Aboriginal health include Australia over the past two decades. These cultural factors, such as the fact that Aborigi- improvements are particularly reflected by nes living in remote communities often sleep child health statistics. In 1970 in Western with dogs which, for example, carry scabies, Australia, Aboriginal infant mortality was which is thereby passed on to both children estimated at 46 deaths per 1,000 live births and adults. The Pilbara Public Health Service compared to 15 deaths per 1,000 live births now has a program to encourage Aboriginal in 1993. Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4469

In Western Australia, the case fatality rate 20 years. Dr Lawson Holman was for many for gastroenteritis in 1970 was approximately years the Kimberley regional surgeon based five per cent among Aboriginal infants. It is in Derby. He thought up the concept of now close to zero. There has also been a mobile field nurses who could take preventa- significant decline in infant and child hospita- tive medical care out to Aboriginal communi- lisation rates for respiratory tract diseases in ties which developed into the WA Communi- Western Australia over the same period. ty Health Nursing Service. Dr Randy Spargo, While there was little information about as the Director of Kimberley Public Health, immunisation coverage among Aboriginal did important work on nutritional deficiencies children in 1970 there are now very high rates in Aborigines for which he was awarded an of coverage—in excess of 95 per cent—for Order of Australia. vaccine preventible diseases in Aboriginal There are nurses such as Helen Sullivan, children throughout Western Australia. Fur- who also received an Order of Australia for thermore, in the Kimberley region of WA her work with Aboriginal communities in the there has been a significant increase of about Fitzroy River Valley, and Sister Sally Murray 50 grams in the mean birth weight of Aborigi- Connelly, who for nearly 20 years has once nal babies over the past 20 years. a week driven a four-wheel drive vehicle out These improvements have been primarily to the Yande Yarra community on the banks due to the concerted efforts of public and of the Yule River in Pilbara to provide largely community health services that provide such preventative medical services to that com- services as maternal and child health pro- munity. There are many more doctors, nurses grams, immunisation programs, screening and Aboriginal health workers, such as Vicky programs for diseases, abnormalities in young Dhu, Jenny Baraga and May Eckerman, who children and the provision of preventative have likewise worked hard to improve Abo- services to counter problems such as sexually riginal health. transmitted diseases and alcoholism and to In conclusion, while significant improve- improve the diet of Aboriginal people. ments have been made over the last 20 years Over the last decade, there has been an with respect to some aspects of the health of increasing recognition of the importance of Aboriginal people, unfortunately it is still true the role of Aboriginal health workers and that the level of ill-health among the Aborigi- Aboriginal environmental health workers in nal population of Western Australia and the improvement of the health of Aboriginal Australia in general remains disturbingly high people. This led to accredited training courses compared with levels in non-Aboriginal and career structures for health workers in people. That is a matter which should rightly 1994 and current negotiations to develop a concern the Senate and all members of the similar training program and career structure Australian community. for environmental health workers. However, I believe the Senate should The health department of Western Australia respect the fact that a great deal of effort is increased the focus on Aboriginal health in going into bringing these sad statistics about the 1980s by the establishment of an Aborigi- Aboriginal health into line with the record for nal health policy unit. In November 1995, a other Australians and not be tempted into the restructure of the health department led to the trap of accepting the kind of simplistic criti- establishment of the Office of Aboriginal cisms which are made by people in organisa- Health which aims to deliver an effective and tions who really know very little about what efficient health service that best meets the is being done to improve Aboriginal health in cultural and traditional needs of the Aborigi- this country. nal people of Western Australia. I would like to name a few of the dedicated Member for Oxley individuals who have made great contribu- Senator CONROY (Victoria) (7.29 p.m.)— tions to the improvement of Aboriginal health I rise to add my voice to those who have in the north of Western Australia in the last publicly repudiated the views of the member 4470 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 for Oxley (Ms Hanson) as expressed in her migrants in community activity, the arts, inaugural speech. It saddens me that this is business, medicine, culture and, of course, necessary. It is a national disgrace that Ms that great Victorian religion, Australian Rules Hanson’s views have been allowed to remain Football. My life would not be the same if I virtually unchallenged, especially by the had not been able to stand in the outer at Prime Minister (Mr Howard). Victoria Park cheering the skills of that I agree and endorse that free speech is one Macedonian marvel Peter Daicos and the of the most important principles that a democ- skills of Saverio Rocca. By mentioning the racy is built upon, but free speech requires footy, I do not want senators to think for a vigilance so that ignorant and intolerant moment that I wish to trivialise this issue. comment is challenged. Ms Hanson’s speech Pauline Hanson challenges the greatest tradi- and her subsequent public comments represent tion of this country—a fair go. some of the most ignorant contributions to In Victoria earlier this year we had a state public debate in many years. She states: election. The Labor Party did not fare well, . . . we are in danger of being swamped by Asians. but in the seat of Clayton, Mr Hong Lim, the Between 1984 and 1995, 40 per cent of all migrants first Cambodian born MP, was elected; in the coming into this country were of Asian origin. west of Melbourne, Mr Sang Nguyen, They have their own culture and religion, form Australia’s first Vietnamese born MP, was ghettos and do not assimilate. elected. I proudly declare that both of these Senator Jacinta Collins—Who said that? people are close personal friends who have Senator CONROY—Pauline Hanson. I enriched my life, broadened my horizons and, almost do not know where to start. Ms most importantly, are excellent contributors Hanson uses the figure of 40 per cent over 11 on behalf of their constituents. It saddens me years to imply that Australia, a country of greatly that if Pauline Hanson had her way over 17 million people, is in danger of being neither of these people would have been swamped. The average immigration intake allowed into Australia. Australia would have over that period from 1984-85 to 1994-95 was been much the poorer for this. 102,188 per financial year. That makes a total I live in what Ms Hanson would have you of approximately 1,226,000 for the period. Of believe is a ghetto—the municipality of these, according to Ms Hanson, 40 per cent Footscray. I have been an elected councillor were of Asian origin. This equates to less for this area and I was privileged to serve on than 2.9 per cent of the total population. Ms council with my friend Ms Mai Ho— Hanson’s views are paranoid and deceitful. I Australia’s first female Vietnamese councillor. guess the old line ‘lies, damn lies and I challenge Ms Hanson, who makes such a statistics’ is appropriate in this case. There is play of her simple origins, to come to the no danger of being swamped as she claims. Footscray Mall on a Saturday morning and to Ms Hanson then moves on to assert that actually view the harmony in our Footscray they, the Asians, have their own culture, form community. Yes, we have poverty; yes, we ghettos and do not assimilate. These remarks have illness, drugs and all of the other social echo statements from racists in the past who problems that afflict other communities in claimed the same of Italian, Greek, Macedo- Australia. But the quiet determination of the nian, Lebanese and Turkish immigrants. What overwhelming number of people in Footscray has history shown us? Let it be the judge of is to build a better life for themselves and the racists of the 1950s and 1960s. Australia their children. is a much richer country in every way for the Forty-eight per cent of our municipality are contribution of the southern European from non-English speaking backgrounds. They migrants of the 1950s and 1960s. have come to Australia with nothing but hope, I live in Melbourne, which I consider to be and now they must endure the racism and the centre of multiculturalism in Australia. I bigotry of people such as Ms Hanson. I have shudder to think what life would be like witnessed first hand the effect of ignorance without the rich diversity provided by these that Ms Hanson is now the martyr for if you Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4471 read today’s paper. The hate, the hurt and the reported unchallenged in our region, Australia tears are caused by people who will be en- is diminished. Australians of Asian origin couraged by her views; people who feel free deserve the Prime Minister’s public support. to vilify Australians on the street because they But Australia will not just suffer embarrass- look different. ment. Already the Queensland grain growers As I mentioned earlier, Ms Mai Ho was one have stated that they are suffering as a conse- of my colleagues on the Footscray Council. quence. This is the tip of the iceberg. In fact, she was the Deputy Mayor of Foots- Senator Panizza—Do they grow grain in cray when Jeff Kennett abolished local gov- Queensland? ernments in Victoria. But I am willing to predict that she will be re-elected to the new Senator CONROY—I think so. Australia council next year, and one day she will be has been abandoned by Europe economically. Australia’s first female Vietnamese mayor. We must make our own way, establish new allies and new friends; reach out to those The Asian community do have their own around us. It is the Prime Minister’s responsi- distinct culture and religion and I have par- bility to advance the country’s interests, not ticipated in many of their cultural and reli- his own party’s cheap political ends. The gious events. Their community events, despite Prime Minister now has the chance to support the ignorant views of Ms Hanson and her ilk, a resolution on these issues, but this will not are a blend of Asian and Australian activities. be enough. He must not hide behind free The Tet Festival is an excellent example of speech. He must join in the debate. this. Many members on the opposite side have been to the Tet Festival held in Footscray Western Australian Royal Commission Park every year and I congratulate them on Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) that. It is a brilliant display of dragon dance, (7.36 p.m.)—I rise to speak about the Western music, fairground rides, sporting activities and Australian Anti-Corruption Commission. The stalls of diverse nature. This festival is a Australian Democrats support the recommen- joyous occasion shared by people of all dations of the Western Australian Royal backgrounds in Footscray and from through- Commission 1992 and the Commission on out Melbourne. It is not the cause of a Government Report No. 2 Part 1 and support Bosnia-style situation as her alarmist claims the protection and inclusion of both the public would have you believe. and the private sector in whistleblowing I would now like to turn to the role of the legislation. Prime Minister, particularly in light of the The WA royal commission recommended campaign slogan used by the coalition in the that a new office, to be called the Commis- last election, ‘For all of us’. It now seems that sioner for the Investigation of Corrupt and ‘us’ does not include Australians who have an Improper Conduct, be established. It said: Asian background. John Howard should know . . . the proposed Commissioner should possess . . . better than anyone that he was elected as powers, enabling him or her to deal not only with Prime Minister to lead all Australians. He narrowly defined official corruption, but also with craves to be a statesman; history will not improper conduct by public officials. The Commis- remember him so. Yes, free speech is vital sioner should also be concerned with preventative but by going missing in action in response to and educative measures designed to combat corrupt Ms Hanson he shames himself and he shames and improper conduct. In other words, the body we propose has a significantly broader function than Australia by his silence. the existing OCC. The office should become one Imagine if a Malaysian MP stood up and of the primary independent parliamentary agencies called Australians ‘Asia’s white trash’. Aus- of the State. tralian newspapers would be in a frenzy. We The purpose of this office would be to pro- would all demand that the Prime Minister of vide the people of Western Australia with a Malaysia publicly repudiate these views. body having powers to receive complaints Australia’s Prime Minister has failed this about official corruption and also to deal with critical test. As Pauline Hanson’s views are improper conduct. The Western Australian 4472 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 royal commission also recommended that, making of disclosures internally. Recommen- notwithstanding the embarrassment or difficul- dation 80 recommends that false, misleading ties it may create, whistleblowing legislation or malicious disclosures or allegations which was desirable. a person knows to be false, misleading or The Western Australian royal commission malicious should be a criminal offence. identified the vital prerequisites for a whistle- The Court government made amendments blowing scheme for Western Australia, in- to the Official Corruption Commission. The cluding: Court government has denied the will of (a) that it be credible so that officials and others parliament by failing to proclaim the Official not only feel that they can use it with confidence Corruption Commission Amendment Act 1996 but also can expect their disclosures will receive in its entirety. The substantive provisions of proper consideration and investigation; the act have not been proclaimed. See the (b) that it is purposive in the sense that the proced- Western Australian Gazette, 30 August 1996, ures it establishes will facilitate the correction of No. 124. The sections which have been maladministration and misconduct where found to exist; and, (c) that it provides reassurance both to proclaimed by the Court government are those the public and to the persons who use it. Consis- which change the name of the commission to tently with the preservation of confidentiality in the Anti-Corruption Commission and establish relation to operational matters there should be new eligibility requirements for the commis- appropriate reporting to parliament. The public is sioners. This begs the question: is it the entitled to know that, where allegations are made, government’s intention to proclaim the rest of they have been investigated and, if substantiated, the act before the election? A government that remedial action taken. Persons using it are entitled to expect that they will be protected from reprisal. was genuinely pursuing corrupt, illegal and improper conduct in its public institutions The Commission on Government recommend- would have no hesitation in strengthening and ed at recommendation 66 the inclusion of widening the powers of the Anti-Corruption ‘improper conduct’ within the Official Cor- Commission now for the benefit of all West ruption Commission’s jurisdiction; at recom- Australians. mendation 69 that the commission should receive, oversee and investigate all complaints There are a number of deficiencies in the against police; at recommendation 70 that the new Official Corruption Commission Amend- commission should be accountable to parliament Act 1996 passed to establish the Anti- ment and the people; and at recommendation Corruption Commission. The Western Aus- 73 that whistleblowers disclosure legislation tralian government’s new ACC fails to meet is a mechanism for the prevention and expo- a number of recommendations made by the sure of impropriety and corruption in Western Commission on Government and these can be Australia. Currently only people who provide identified as follows. information which is within the jurisdiction of Under the heading ‘Philosophy’, principles the OCC can be protected against reprisals such as openness, transparency, accountability under statutory and common law protection. and independence are lacking in the legisla- This means that for people wishing to raise tion establishing the ACC. There has been a issues of improper conduct which fall outside failure by the government to approach anti- the new act’s definition only limited protec- corruption measures comprehensively. While tion exists. New legislation should be enacted the government has passed legislation which to protect people who make public interest deals with disclosures on corrupt and criminal disclosures. conduct by public officials, it fails to corres- Recommendation 74 recommends that pondingly implement provisions for public additional protection for whistleblowers, interest disclosures such as the establishment including the provision of both a criminal and of a whistleblower scheme to encourage such disciplinary offence for any person who takes disclosure. There is no responsibility by CEOs reprisal action. Recommendation 76 recom- or agencies to establish internal procedures to mends encouraging public sector agencies to facilitate the making of disclosure or to develop an ethical culture and to facilitate the develop and encourage an ethical climate— Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4473 that is, through codes of conduct or induction. threat or harassment. The ACC has no en- Nor is there responsibility of chief executive forcement powers. officers or agencies to protect internal whistle- In regard to accountability, secrecy provi- blowers or to address and establish anti- sions are still inhibitive of openness, transpar- corruption measures. ency and accountability. The reporting provi- In regard to powers, although the powers of sions under the Financial Administration and a special investigator appointed by the pro- Audit Act should be more specific. There is posed ACC are considerable, namely the no provision for compulsory reporting to powers of a royal commission, the limitations parliament. This means that the ACC is a to the powers of the proposed commission are creature of the executive and in the current nevertheless extensive. Some of these limita- structure it is not accountable to the parlia- tions are as follows. The proposed ACC only ment and, therefore, to the people. There is no has recommendatory powers, not powers of legislative requirement for a joint standing investigation. The new legislation fails to committee of parliament to be established and keep the Anti-Corruption Commission out of the new legislation fails to establish whistle- executive hands. The reporting requirements blower legislation. of the ACC are limited and are still blanketed In regard to whistleblowers, the failure of in secrecy as it is not mandatory for the ACC the government to implement comprehensive to report to parliament. whistleblowing provisions or legislation is a fundamental weakness in this new legislation Powers of the ACC to receive information which is intended to establish a commission and investigate allegations about the conduct which investigates, exposes and prevents of a person in his or her capacity as to the corruption and impropriety. While the new holder of a judicial office are limited to ACC provides somewhere for whistleblowers matters which relate to an offence under to go and disclose their information, a similar section 122 of the Criminal Code. It does not, function is served by a number of other therefore, have the power to investigate less agencies, the ombudsman and the police. The serious activities such as improper conduct. ACC does not provide protection for whistle- Although attempts have been made to encom- blowers who make disclosures which are pass members of parliament within the ACC’s within the jurisdiction of the commission. It jurisdiction, ancillary amendments linking the also does not provide other services such as jurisdiction of the ACC to a breach of code advice or counselling for whistleblowers. of conduct of an MP are lacking. The ACC has no anti-corruption functions In relation to ex-Public Service officers, no as recommended by the Commission on enforcement provisions have been provided, Government. In the absence of efforts to even though the ACC may receive allegations encourage the prevention of corruption as part and invoke investigations against ex-Public of the climate of the public and private sector, Service officers. The ACC may only report the battle to encourage disclosure will be facts and may not make findings. This may more difficult. Where corruption and improper prove difficult without some guidelines in conduct is considered to be the norm, not relation to weight, standard of proof and only will disclosure be more difficult but an credibility of evidence. Even though the awareness of what is corrupt and improper special investigator has the powers of a royal will be lost. commission if appointed, that evidence may We need a coherent system. The proposed only be taken in private. This does not corres- changes do not appear to be made with pondingly endow the ACC with even the reference to the current inadequacies as appearance of openness, accountability and highlighted by the Commission on Govern- independence. Save for listening device ment concerning the Public Sector Manage- authorised use, no police powers have been ment Act 1994 and the current legislative and given to the ACC. The ACC has no powers operational inadequacies of the state ombuds- to provide protection for whistleblowers from man. The current legislation does not ensure 4474 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996 that all public agencies are included in the to afford dental care. Funding for the program ACC jurisdiction as recommended by the was in the order of $350 million over the last Commission on Government. Madam Presi- three years of the Labor government. There is dent, I ask for leave to table the documents no doubt that this program was a success. and the tables attached to my address. Since its introduction, waiting lists for people The PRESIDENT—Is leave granted? waiting for dental treatment have reduced from some two years or more down to, in Senator CAMPBELL (Western Australia— most cases, approximately one month. Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for the I am sure all honourable senators recognise Environment and Parliamentary Secretary to the distress that can exist for people, particu- the Minister for Sport, Territories and Local larly elderly people on pensions, waiting for Government) (7.47 p.m.)—by leave—Senator dental treatment. To have to wait for two Murray did pay me the courtesy of letting me years or more was indeed a matter of great look at the document, which I read thorough- concern, and the previous Labor government ly. But my understanding is that what you introduced this scheme to reduce that waiting have just read, Senator Murray, forms the period. great majority of the document you had me read earlier. Are you seeking, Senator Murray, It was an outstanding success, recognised to table those attachments to that document or by many health care groups, hospitals, dental the brief which you have already read. services and others throughout the community. What it meant was that pensioners and Senator Murray—It is a package. But with health care card holders had access to real, the brief I have read are footnotes, which ongoing preventative dental care, not just obviously I did not read, and there are tables emergency care. In the last financial year of attached. the Labor government, 1995-96, it spent Leave granted. around $106 million on the program and, all told, around 500,000 people were able to be Dental Clinics treated under this scheme. Senator FORSHAW (New South Wales) Unfortunately—and unfortunately particular- (7.47 p.m.)—I rise tonight to draw to the ly for many people living in western Syd- attention of the Senate more evidence regard- ney—this program is to be abolished. In its ing the failings of the coalition government to first budget the coalition government cut implement policies and commitments that funds available to dental clinics and conse- they gave at the election in March. There are quently we are going to see a massive reduc- numerous examples that one could give, as tion in services. has been demonstrated over recent days regarding the inability of this government and Who will be affected? For a start, 36 per the Prime Minister (Mr Howard) to live up to cent of those that were using the program the commitments they made. were aged pensioners, so the elderly will be affected. Thirty per cent of people accessing One of the commitments that the now the program were in receipt of other pension Prime Minister made was to ‘maintain the real entitlements such as sole parents, disability value of all pension benefits and other entitle- pensions and so on. Of course, many of the ments for low income earners.’ One of the unemployed were able to access this program. most disgraceful decisions of this government All told, around 21,000 people in western contained in the budget is the proposal to axe Sydney alone received emergency or preven- the Commonwealth dental health program. tative health care. In areas such as Westmead, This was a program introduced by the previ- the Nepean, Mount Druitt and Katoomba ous Labor government to provide equity of many people were able to receive treatment access to dental health care for less fortunate as a result of this program. Therefore it is members of our community. very distressing and disturbing for the people The scheme provided funds to hospitals so of western Sydney—many of whom will get as to reduce the waiting list for those unable an opportunity next Saturday in the Lindsay Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4475 by-election to pass judgment upon this given by the Prime Minister (Mr Howard) to government—to see this program being maintain benefits for pensioners and other wound down and eventually abolished. welfare recipients, will destroy the provision Last Tuesday in the Senate the minister of dental care for the real battlers of the responsible in this chamber, Senator Newman, Lindsay electorate. It may be okay for the was waxing lyrical about how she had visited millionaire shareholders on the front bench of the electorate of Lindsay to assist her friend the government to pay $200 or more an hour the Liberal candidate, who could not even get for dental treatment, but there are many her own nomination correct. The minister was people in Lindsay and in other parts of in the electorate to try and help, in a belated western Sydney who cannot afford that and way, the candidate from the Liberal party to who do not have the opportunity to even regain the seat. I would not mind betting that consider having a share portfolio. They will there were two places in the electorate that get their chance on Saturday to re-elect Ross the minister did not get to visit and in fact Free as the member for Lindsay and to start avoided visiting. They would be, firstly, the to put an end to the sorts of policies that this Wentworth Area Health Services and, second- government is seeking to inflict upon the resi- ly, the Blue Mountains District Health Ser- dents of that electorate and upon people of vices. western Sydney—the real battlers in this community. The reason she would not have wanted to visit these two health service providers is that Senate adjourned at 7.55 p.m. they would have given very bad news to the minister about the impact of this decision. For DOCUMENTS instance, the Wentworth area health service Tabling has indicated that the impact of this decision will be such that five people from the health The following documents were tabled by service will be expected to lose their jobs the Clerk: before the end of this year. That is a huge cut Currency Act—Currency Determination No. 5 of in the provision of services available for the 1996. many people living in the area who will want Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Act—Great to access them. Barrier Reef Marine Park— Cairns Section Zoning Plan (Amendment No. 1 All told, it is expected that around 100 of 1996). patient visits per week will be lost as a result Central Section Zoning Plan (Amendment No. 1 of the impact of this cut and eventual aboli- of 1996). tion of this program from the Wentworth area Mackay/Capricorn Section Zoning Plan (Amend- health service. It has also been indicated by ment No. 1 of 1996). the health services within western Sydney Health Insurance Act—Determination HS/3/1996. that, as a result of the abolition of this pro- Taxation Determinations TD 96/42 and TD gram, the waiting lists will soar back up 96/43. again—they will increase from around one month, which is now the approximate waiting PROCLAMATIONS time, to up to two years and maybe even Proclamations by His Excellency the Gover- longer. For anybody waiting for dental treat- nor-General were tabled, notifying that he had ment for that length of time, particularly the proclaimed the following provisions of Acts elderly, it must be incredibly distressing. It is to come into operation on the dates specified: a cruel, indeed despicable, action on the part of this government to cut funding from such Protection of the Sea Legislation Amendment Act 1986—Part IV—9 October 1996 (Gazette a worthwhile program which has delivered No. S 376, 9 October 1996). relief to so many hundreds of thousands of people in recent years. Protection of the Sea (Oil Pollution Compensa- tion Fund) Act 1993—Chapter 3 (other than Part This ill-conceived policy now adopted by 3.1)—9 October 1996 (Gazette No. S 376, 9 the coalition, in breach of the commitment October 1996). 4476 SENATE Thursday, 17 October 1996

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE

The following answers to questions were circulated:

Older Unemployed People (2) What are the full details of the breakdown of costs involved in the New Work Opportunities (Question No. 6) Program to support the claim that in the Sydney Morning Herald on 20 May 1996, that each extra Senator Woodley asked the Minister for full-time job created under the program will cost up Employment, Education, Training and Youth to $100,000; and (b) what are the details of the Affairs, upon notice, on 28 March 1996: methodology used to arrive at this figure. (1) Are there any special provisions in the (3) Will all departmental and other documents activity test which may be of assistance to older used in the preparation of these figures be tabled. unemployed people; if so, please provide details. Senator Vanstone—The answers to the (2) Can the requirements of a case management Honourable Senator’s question is as follows: agreement override these special provisions. (1) (a) & (b) (3) Are any efforts made to ensure that case The figure of more than $76,000 is the cost per management requirements do not override these net impact of the JobSkills program. That is the provisions. cost of each extra job obtained by JobSkills participants, over and above jobs that were obtained by Senator Vanstone—The answer to the those who did not receive assistance. This cost is honourable Senator’s question is as follows: calculated with reference to program net unit costs. (1), (2) and (3) In order to satisfy the activity test The net unit cost of JobSkills is derived from the and retain Job Search or Newstart Allowance, average gross unit cost of assistance and estimated unemployed people are generally required to report savings in Newstart Allowance (NSA) payments their job seeking activities to the Department of accruing to the Department of Social Security Social Security every two weeks. There is a special (DSS) as a result of jobseekers participating in the provision to enable unemployed people over the program. The formula for calculating net unit costs age of 50 to extend this period to a maximum of was developed in collaboration with DSS, the 12 weeks. Department of Finance and the Treasury. The formula includes a range of parameters amongst The terms of a Case Management Activity which are the duration of program assistance, the Agreement are negotiated between the unemployed proportion of participants on NSA and averaged person and the case manager. Consequently, the NSA rates. In relation to calculation of the figure frequency of reporting job seeking activities agreed reported in the Sydney Morning Herald, the gross between the unemployed person and the case cost of JobSkills was $9,971 for each person manager, and set down in the Agreement, can be assisted. The offset or reduction for savings in NSA less than the maximum of twelve weeks for job payments was $3,845, giving a net unit cost of seekers aged 50 or more. $6,126. Program net impact is measured by comparing JobSkills Program the unsubsidised employment levels of former (Question No. 152) participants and those of similar long term unemployed who were not assisted. Program participants Senator Bolkus asked the Minister for and non-participants are matched on key criteria Employment, Education, Training and Youth such as duration of unemployment, age, gender, Affairs, upon notice, on 22 July 1996: educational attainment and geographical location. Comparisons of this kind have shown that while 6 (1)(a) What are the full details of the breakdown months after leaving the program 39 percent of of costs involved in the JobSkills Program to JobSkills participants were in unsubsidised work, support the Minister’s statement, reported in the 31 percent of those not assisted were also in Sydney Morning Herald on 20 May 1996, that each unsubsidised jobs. This means that there is an job provided under this program costs more than increase of 8 percentage points in the likelihood of $76,000; and (b) what are the details of the any individual finding work as a consequence of methodology used to arrive at this figure. participating in the program and implies a cost to Thursday, 17 October 1996 SENATE 4477

Government of $76,575 for each person who got a (2) Will a guarantee be given that the CES will job as a result of the program. continue to play a vital role in the provision of (2) (a) & (b) The gross unit cost of New Work employment services. Opportunities is $12,700. The offset for DSS (3) Does the Government intend to effectively allowance reductions is $2,691, giving a net unit privatise employment services; if so, how can this cost of $10,009. The Department’s data show that be reconciled with the Government’s statements just 22 percent of former New Work Opportunities about freedom of choice. participants have progressed to unsubsidised jobs. Senator Vanstone—The answer to the In view of this extremely low post program employment level, and assuming a level of effective- honourable senator’s question is as follows: ness not dissimilar to that of JobSkills, a cost of at The 1996-97 Budget provides for the most least $100,000 per net impact could be expected. significant reorganisation of labour market assist- (3) The breakdown of costs for deriving cost per ance in fifty years. In the lead up to the introduc- net impact figures and the method of calculation tion of the new arrangements in December 1997, have been fully detailed in the answers to parts one the current case management system will continue and two of this question. Additional information on under the Employment Services Act. The Employ- the calculation of net unit costs for all major labour ment Services Regulatory Authority is currently market programs is publicly available. The findings undertaking a new tender round for the period 1 of net impact studies are routinely released by the December 1996 to 30 November 1997. It is envis- Department and a full report on the evaluation of aged that expenditure on case management in this JobSkills will be published in due course. Details period will be some $197 million. Under the of employment outcomes for the New Work arrangements to apply from December 1997, some Opportunities program and associated expenditure CES staff will transfer to a new service delivery information will be published, along with figures agency to provide registration, assessment, referral for all other programs, in the Department’s 1995-96 and compliance services. The remaining CES staff Annual Report. will join with Employment Assistance Australia staff to form the new corporatised public employ- Unemployed: Case Management ment placement enterprise (EPE). The public EPE will compete with private and community sector (Question No. 154) EPEs to provide employment services to job Senator Bolkus asked the Minister for seekers. Job seekers will be able to nominate their Employment, Education, Training and Youth preferred EPE. There will be increased choice for job seekers as the full range of employment Affairs, upon notice, on 22 July 1996: services, not just case management, will be avail- (1) What resources are going to be available in able from the private, community and public future case management for the unemployed. sectors.