THE REEMERGENCE OF MIKE GARI consummate jazz guitarist Mike Gari. Mike was a fix - by Dr. Steve Kinigstein ture on the New York jazz scene. He played with every - one from Jimmy Rowles to Stephane Grappelli. Somehow Mike had disappeared from the scene for several years. Now he was on the verge of a comeback. Chuck was really busy at the time. Fresh Sounds’ Dick Bank was producing the first CD that Chuck was put - ting out under his own name (it’s now finished and slat - ed for release later this year), so Chuck barely had time to breathe. His curiousity about Mike, however, was piqued. Val and I arranged a small dinner party at our place in Los Angeles during early December while Mike and his wife Maggie were visiting us from New York. A few weeks later I asked Chuck to share his impressions of that evening. He said, “I didn’t know what to expect. I was surprised. We played four or five tunes and I was blown away.”

In a recent conversation with the legendary jazz guitarist and educator, Howard Morgen, I asked him to tell me what Mike was like when Mike was his student. The enthusiasm that Howard felt was apparent in his y

h voice. He was eager to share his thoughts. He said, p a r g

o “You know when you get that special student. I t o h

P watched Mike grow up. He’s beyond brilliant, and I’m o t o

F glad he’s finally going to get the wide recognition he o r e

V deserves.” y s e t r The following interview took place on u o c o

t January 9, 2008 when Mike was in Los Angeles to play o h

P at Charlie O’s with the Chuck Berghofer Quartet.

In October of 2007 my wife Valmere and I had SK: I just have a few thousand questions to ask you the great pleasure of accompanying our “Jazzparents” before you get bored and walk out, so I’ll talk quickly (please don’t ask for an explanation – it would require and begin right now. You started playing in 1960 when a whole separate article), Dr. George and Laura Tyler, you were eleven years old. At that time, most people to Sunnie Sutton’s Annual Rocky Mountain Jazz Party. your age were drawn to rock. When and how did you It was the second party of Sunnie’s that we attended, start playing jazz? and I was looking forward to hearing a load of great MG: I was a typical kid, but I was incredibly lucky that players cut loose before a knowledgeable and appre - the local guitar teacher was the very talented Howard ciative audience. I was not disappointed. Everybody Morgen, who is not only an amazing player, but a nat - was on top of their game. Sunnie had done it again. ural born teacher. Brilliance seemed to be the norm. Among the many extraordinary performers I had the good fortune to SK: That’s interesting, and we’re going to spend some hear, the player that hit me where I live was bassist, time on it; but before we do, let’s discuss what brought Chuck Berghofer. Not only were his lines great, and his you to jazz. solos stellar, but he was totally at one with the moment. MG: Well that’s where I was going. It was definitely Chuck seemed to communicate through ESP – he Howard, all the way. We went through all the Mel Bay seemed to know what anyone would do beats before books, and then he taught me how chords would move, they’d actually do it. This guy had my vote for MVP. He theory, etc. He illustrated those things by using stan - also was the perfect bassist to work with my friend, dards. Then we tried to improvise on those tunes. I I Page 104 Just Jazz Guitar May 2008 think the first one we did was “Lady Be Good.” That’s MG: Sure. Basically, trade in your Fender medium for what got me into it. a mandolin pick. It was sweep-picking as opposed to alternate strokes. You’d put your pinky on the pick - SK: And you weren’t attracted to rock at all? guard as an anchor, and the strokes crossing strings MG: Well, I felt jazz was more unique. One element of would move in the same direction. For example, move - the attraction to it for me was the fact that fewer peo - ment from the third string to the fourth would always ple were doing it. be on an upstroke, and to the second it would always be on a downstroke. Arpeggios came out smoother. Chuck SK: What was it like studying with such a remarkable felt it produced a more legato sound. More like horn musician as Howard Morgen? players such as Charlie Parker. It really worked. MG: It was great because it was loose, yet structured. Watching Chuck do it was amazing. Of course, I was at Howard is a schooled guy. He went to Queens College. an impressionable age, so I embraced it completely. I I was pretty studious, so we were able to get through tried to anyway, but I don’t think anyone ever mastered the basics quickly. And if I didn’t do something per - it except Chuck. fectly, it was a bad day. Howard didn’t come down on me. My pressure was internal. I always wanted to do well. I think it was harder on me than it was for him: he was teaching someone who was actually getting it. The one or two times when I couldn’t play those Mel Bay tunes I was mortified. (Laughs)

SK: I know the feeling, probably more intimately than you do! Howard wasn’t your only teacher who was a major figure in jazz. You also studied with Chuck i r Wayne. a G e k MG: Again, that was due to Howard. Everything i M y

comes back to Howard Morgen. We were doing a lot of s e t r u

improvising. (It was pretty basic, back then.) Howard o c o t

thought it was the right time for me to experience o h someone else’s point of view. I had expressed some P interest in Chuck, so Howard set it up. He actually Chuck Wayne playing for fans at made the call. He told Chuck that he had this kid who Lou Sosa’s Loft, 1965. was about fifteen or sixteen who was ready. That was SK: I could tell you without any reservation that I, for how I got there. one, didn’t when you showed it to me! Do you consid - er the picking technique to be Chuck’s major contribu - SK: Could you describe the differences between study - tion to your development as a jazz guitarist? ing with Howard and studying with Chuck? Was it a MG: Oh no. There was so much more. shock? Was the transition smooth? MG: It was very different. Howard was very systemat - SK: What, then, would you consider the major contri - ic and concentrated on teaching at that time. He always butions of both Howard and Chuck, if you could think had lesson plans. Everything was thought out in in those terms? advance. When you go to someone who might have MG: That’s hard. I’m sure I’m going to leave some - many other things competing for his attention, time thing out, so I’ll apologize beforehand. Howard was doesn’t necessarily let it happen that way. They’ll show just an all-around terrific guitar player and guide from you their style of picking, their chords, etc. They also the beginning, through theory, to how to voice things, show you the way they approach certain tunes. (You to how to improvise. Everything – the whole ball of usually ask them that; it’s not like they’re going to wax. Chuck’s attitude was, “Okay, so now you know automatically volunteer it.) One of the big things with all this. This is what we do when we get to a certain Chuck Wayne was picking technique. point when we’re performing.” Chuck was out there in SK: Could you describe that? the mainstream, playing and recording. So he gave me I Just Jazz Guitar May 2008 Page 105 a feel for how a player approaches tunes and, you tate towards piano players as such. It was just in the know, his pick and fingers, his unique voicings, and the mix. In the beginning it was only guitar players; then I benefit of his years of experience playing with really expanded. great people. Sometimes it felt like he was saying, “Get out and do it now, and here’s some of the wild ways we SK: Do you feel that piano players helped shape your go about it.” view of harmony? MG: What I wanted to do is try to expand on the typi - cal things a guitar player would do. Maybe do things a little differently, instead of being “Mr. Block Chords.” Although there is, I admit, something to be said for those.

SK: Let’s talk about some of the people you’ve played with, starting with Daphne Hellman. What is it like being a guitarist accompanying a harp? MG: It was nice; she did a real blend of styles. Daphne played jazz on the harp, which isn’t easy. Every time there’s an accidental, you have to hit a pedal. If you’re playing something that’s syncopated, you gotta be a tapdancer! She played “Billie’s Bounce” and really car - ried it off. I should mention that Dr. Lynn Christie was the bassist in that trio. Daphne was generous, and did - Mike Gari at Lou Sosa’s Loft in 1965 n’t mind giving us some room, too.

SK: Did you have any other teachers? SK: What was it like playing with pianist Jimmy MG: Not really. Other than listening to other players, Rowles? that was it. I started meeting a lot of people. If you MG: It was a great experience. It was at Bradley’s in watch carefully, you always pick up something. If I New York, a long time ago, so I don’t remember much, was sitting next to Jimmy Raney, I’d be looking and except that it was a really great gig. Jimmy was one of listening. the best, so you know it had to be great.

SK: Are there any guitarists with whom you did not SK : You played at Bradley’s quite a bit, didn’t you? study that had an influence on you as a player? MG: Yeah. That was the beginning of the trio “The MG: Oh God. Of course – all the names: Wes Three Mikes.” Montgomery, Kenny Burrell, Jim Hall, Barney Kessel. There are so many. The entire parade that’s come SK: Who were the other two Mikes? down. If I bought recordings, they were usually guitar. MG: Mike Abene on piano, and Mike Moore on bass. I’d try to learn what these guys were doing. And if I couldn’t figure it out, I’d try to at least get the feeling SK: I’m not exactly trying to find problems here, but of how they were doing it and try to incorporate that. suppose you guys were in the middle of a tune and one That’s how I would try to learn tunes, too. Mike had to get another Mike’s attention? Obviously, you couldn’t just say, “Hey Mike!” SK: In interview once, Jimmy Raney said that guitar MG: (Shaking his head and laughing) We had nick - players, by and large, tend to overlook what is being names. Before I tell you what they were, I just want to done by players on other instruments, and thereby lose make it clear that I’m not copping to making them up. out on a great deal of knowledge and enjoyment. Are (Still laughing) there any players of other instruments from whom you Abene’s nickname was “Slits” because his eyes were feel you have learned? really down there. We called Mike Moore “Snazz” MG: Tons of them. Bill Evans, Chick Corea, Stan because he had this great smile. For some reason, Getz, Wayne Shorter, Miles Davis. I wouldn’t set out to which I still insist is unbeknownst to me, the guys try to imitate any of that, but the pianistic approach thought I had a funny walk, so they called me “Pa.” helped liberate the way I voice chords. I didn’t gravi - SK: You were on tour with Stephane Grappelli, and are SK: When you started your career in the 1970s you on the disc “Stephane Grapelli, Vintage 1981.” The were in your twenties and living in New York City. other guitarist in that band was Martin Taylor. (The Who were some of the other guitarists in your circle? bassist was the wonderful Jack Sewing, of whom we MG: Well, there was Jack Wilkins and Richard don’t see enough.) What was it like to play in that par - Boukas. ticular group? MG: It was an exciting time for me. It was one of the SK: Did you guys play together a lot? best jazz gigs you could get – making money, having a MG: Yeah. For a while there we would get together. good time, playing for an appreciative audience. They would help me get gigs and stuff. Jack was espe - cially helpful. SK : Guitarists seem to be a breed unto themselves. They admire other guitarists. They praise them, and are SK: You knew Jack before you actually were living in courteous while they are playing. That being said, there New York City. is still an underlying and ever-present spirit of compe - MG: Yeah, we did these “Guitar Sessions” out in tition that cannot be denied. What was it like playing in Brooklyn. a band with a superb player like Martin Taylor. MG: Martin was the band leader. We agreed that each SK: What were those? of us would have space for solos in the tunes, not like MG: One night each month Lou Sosa, who owned a the old way where one guy would just play rhythm and factory in Brooklyn, had a bunch of guitar players, bass the other is the soloist. I played in a comping style players, and drummers come there and we’d go all behind Stephane. I got some solo space on stage and on night. the album. SK: Was Lou Sosa a guitarist? MG: Yeah, and he was very good. He used to say that he played opera on the guitar. y h

p SK: Would he just invite all of you? a r g o t MG: Pretty much. I don’t remember if we paid any - o h P

o thing. Maybe we all threw in a little something toward t o F

o the refreshments. It usually worked with a group of r e V

y three guitar players, a bass and drums, and then anoth - s e t r

u er group would take its turn. The sessions started at ten o c o t at night. Chuck Wayne would show up and participate o h P when he got done with whatever gig he was working Mike Gari and Chuck Berghofer at an LA Gig. that particular evening. It was pretty exciting. As I said, SK: As we’ve seen, you’re one of those lucky guys it would go on till about 4:00 a.m.. It was a desolate who somehow always get to play with great bass play - spot, so nobody complained about the noise. I was ers. Now you’re adding to that list because you are here about sixteen at the time, so my father always took me in Los Angeles to gig with my favorite bassist, Chuck there and stayed for the whole session. Berghofer. What’s it like playing with him? MG: Chuck knows about every tune that was ever SK: So time passes, you’re in your twenties, and you written. And he knows them up and down, in and out, move from Queens to New York City. How did you get and plays the hell out of each and every one of them. It established on the jazz scene? doesn’t matter if it’s bop, a ballad, or an out and out MG: I found an apartment in the West Village, and burn, Chuck’s got it covered. He has such a sense of started sitting in at clubs with other players. When peo - what’s happening – it feels like he could read every - ple like the way you play, they recommend you for body’s mind. Also, we have a good rapport, but let’s gigs. Also, if guys had more work than they could han - face it, if you can’t have a good rapport with Chuck dle, they would pass a gig along to you. Of course, jazz Berghofer, you probably don’t deserve to play with gigs didn’t pay too much. You got maybe $30.00 and him. some food. In those days, I think the most I ever made I Just Jazz Guitar May 2008 Page 107 was $50.00 a night. It was nothing you could live on. – half step – whole step, then do the same thing on the next string. His scales were different from anything SK: How did you live? you would see in a book. His major and minor scales MG: Club dates, subbing on Broadway shows. In those were three notes per string. That was different from days it was still possible to have really low rent, so if what anyone else was doing. you had a couple of well paying gigs a month, you could keep a roof over your head. I did anything and everything.

SK: I’d like to discuss your approach to playing. First let’s look at how you put together a solo piece, such as a chord/melody. MG: Well, there are “canned” voicings on the guitar that most guys know about-block chords and such. I i r find the way those are working in the tune first; then I a G e k try to get more creative about it. i M y s e t r u

SK: Do you stick strictly to what’s on the page? o c o t

MG: No, no. For most tunes, I’ve heard the way other o h people have worked them, so it all seems to gel and I P come up with what works for me. There are a million Guitar session at Lou Sosa’s Loft, 1965: LtoR; Jack Wilkins, different things you could do: move lines around, Lou Sosa, Carl Barry and Mike Gari. choose to insert some double stops. I always try to SK: Let’s bring our attention back to you. How do you bring the melody out as best as I can in a way that will see your role as a guitarist in a group? be clear to the listener. MG: It depends on the instrumentation. If I was play - ing with just bass and drums, then I would be playing SK: How does that affect the harmony? the part of the piano in a lot respects. I would want to MG: That can go anywhere, as long as you don’t bury add a lot of color and harmony; I wouldn’t be playing the melody. just single notes. If I were playing with a pianist or another guitar player, I would have to think a little SK: So, say you saw something in the “Real Book.” more to make sure we weren’t clashing and were play - There might be changes in between the changes that ing the right changes. If you just have a bass player are on the page? behind you, you pretty much have the freedom to play MG: Yeah, passing chords. For me there are certain anything. It comes down to the fact that if you’re play - things that always work. I guess it’s the Morgen/Wayne ing with people, you figure out where your space is and influence. If I’m playing a dominant chord, the flat-5 what’s going to work. You don’t want to be stepping on always works (e.g. G7=Db7). If you play the ii chord anybody, and you don’t want anybody stepping on you. that goes with the V chord, you get a complete substi - Above all, you want to create a situation that brings out tution. Then you alter your major and your minor everybody’s best side. That’s what makes the music sounds. You’re putting in, for example, ninths, close work, and everybody will feel good about it. harmonies, major sevenths – all these different ways of doing things. To me, the other big breakdown is aug - SK: If you have a piano and a bass, do you defer to mented and diminished. those guys as far as what the changes are going to be? MG: Yeah, I probably would. I’d try to see what they SK: Those are very different families by virtue of the were doing and add something here and there till I scales they each individually imply. found the right mix. MG: Right. The diminished scale for the flat-9, and the whole tone scale for any alteration of the fifth. That SK: What about comping? You’ve played behind a was a big Chuck Wayne thing, the diminished, espe - variety of singers that is truly diverse: Connie Francis, cially. He was a “diminished master.” He had great and Cybil Shepard, to name just two. hands. He could play four notes per string: whole step MG: Two very different styles there. I try to make it rhythmically and harmonically interesting. I almost try SK: Is it going to be just the two of you? to create a counter-melody. You don’t want to get in MG: That’s still to be determined. anybody’s way. You just want to complement what they are doing and maybe lead them somewhere. It’s SK: Any tours? not an easy thing. MG: Just some gigs in Los Angeles, New York City, and I think there’s something cooking in the Phoenix SK: Who are some of the players you admire, living or area. Let’s see how things unfold. dead, and why? MG: Guitarists or other instrumentalists? SK: Finally, for all of us equipment freaks, describe your favorite setup. SK: On any instrument. MG: I just got an Eastman Uptown 905, which is a MG: There are so many that it’s scary. There are so really nice guitar. a real beauty. It’s a 16-inch guitar. I many players that have changed the face of guitar, so to have a simple amp, a Fender Deluxe 112. No gizmos, speak. Then there are others who have contributed to it pretty much a straight-ahead sound. by taking it up a notch. It’s the usual suspects for me. SK: You’re not into a lot of effects processing. SK: And they are? MG: Not really. I like the acoustic sound, although I MG: Wes Montgomery, Howard Morgen, Joe Pass, heard Mike Stern play with something that made the Jim Hall, Jimmy Raney, Tal Farlow, Chuck Wayne. The guitar sound like an organ, and I loved it. I’m just com - list is endless. Then you have the newer guys: Adam fortable with that acoustic sound. Rogers, Pat Metheny, Jonathan Kreisberg, Peter Bernstein. I used to think, when I was hanging around SK: Any advice for developing jazz guitarists? with people, that there were maybe fifteen guys that MG: I’m not the right one to give advice to anybody! were good. Then I realized that there were at least ten guys living on my block that could blow your socks SK: In terms of artistry. right off! MG: Listen to the guys that came before as well as the new guys, and learn from what you hear. Not every - SK: You stopped playing entirely for about ten years. body is lucky enough to have Howard Morgen and Why? Chuck Wayne as teachers. Now there are real pro - MG: I didn’t feel I could have a career and play what grams, however, at the college level for jazz guitarists. I wanted. I had to play what other people wanted. I I think that’s the way to go. found it very difficult to make a living playing only jazz. Just about impossible. And on top of that, I had to SK: Good luck in your endeavors, Mike. Welcome fight some self-doubt. I wasn’t getting any satisfaction back to the scene. from it. I felt it was time to stop. MG: Thanks, it’s great to be back.

SK: What made you pick it back up? MG: I needed relief from the daily grind. Let me try this again. I picked it up and it felt good. I was playing what I wanted at small gigs out in the Hamptons. It l e

became relaxing. Although it’s scary trying to come z t r u

back, it’s really enjoyable. W l l i B y s e t SK: Tell me about some of your current projects. r u o c

MG: I’m going to record with Chuck Berghofer. My o t o h

intention is for it to represent what each of us does best. P I’m thinking it will have some jazz standards, some Bill Wurtzel and Mike Gari playing for a 1940s standards, and some original tunes. I don’t know. Riverside Symphony benefit. We’ll see.

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