1
1 COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 2 HOUSE EDUCATION COMMITTEE HEARING
3 IN RE: HOUSE BILL 847 and HOUSE BILL 842
4 STATE CAPITAL RYAN OFFICE BUILDING 5 ROOM 205 HARRISBURG, PENNSYLVANIA 6 TUESDAY, APRIL 3, 2007, 9:30 A.M. 7
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10 BEFORE:
11 HONORABLE JAMES ROEBUCK, CHAIRMAN HONORABLE MICHAEL CARROLL 12 HONORABLE THOMAS QUIGLEY HONORABLE FRANK SHIMKUS 13 HONORABLE BARBARA MCILVAINE SMITH HONORABLE SCOTT CONKLIN 14 HONORABLE DAYLIN LEACH HONORABLE MARK LONGIETTI 15 HONORABLE RICHARD GRUCELA HONORABLE BERNIE O'NEILL 16 HONORABLE THOMAS MURT HONORABLE MICHAEL HANNA 17 HONORABLE DARYL METCALFE HONORABLE SAM ROHRER 18 HONORABLE ROBERT BASTAIN HONORABLE JAKE WHEATLEY 19 HONORABLE KAREN BEYER HONORABLE JOHN YUDICHAK 20 HONORABLE JOHN PALLONE HONORABLE THADDEUS KIRKLAND 21
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1 I N D E X
2 TESTIFIERS PAGE
3 GERALD ZAHORCHAK 6
4 TIM ALLWEIN 33
5 RON COWELL 56
6 JOSEPH ACRI 76
7 BRIAN CASHMAN 77
8 DEBORAH WEAVER 81
9 STINSON STROUP 101
10 PAT CRAWFORD 106
11 JUDY BAUMGARDNER 109
12 KATHY JOHNSON 113
13 BOB HUGHES 120
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1 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Okay. Good morning. Let me
2 bring this House Education Committee meeting to order. I'm
3 Representative Jim Roebuck, Chairman of the Education
4 Committee, and this is the first in a series of committee
5 meetings which we'll be considering parts of the initiative
6 offered by the Governor in, as part of his budget proposals
7 for this year.
8 And we have two bills for consideration. Before
9 we go into the discussion of those bills, I'd like to ask
10 that the members of the committee might introduce
11 themselves.
12 REPRESENTATIVE CARROLL: I'm Representative Mike
13 Carroll from Luzerne and Monroe Counties.
14 REPRESENTATIVE QUIGLEY: Representative Tom
15 Quigley from Montgomery County.
16 REPRESENTATIVE SHIMKUS: Representative Frank
17 Shimkus, Lackawanna County.
18 REPRESENTATIVE MCILVAINE SMITH: Barbara
19 McIlvaine Smith, Chester County.
20 REPRESENTATIVE CONKLIN: Scott Conklin, Centre
21 County.
22 REPRESENTATIVE LEACH: Daylin Leach, Montgomery
23 County.
24 REPRESENTATIVE LONGIETTI: Mark Longietti,
25 Mercer County. 4
1 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: Rich Grucela,
2 Northampton County.
3 REPRESENTATIVE O'NEILL: Bernie O'Neill from
4 Bucks County.
5 REPRESENTATIVE MURT: Tom Murt, Montgomery
6 County and Philadelphia County.
7 REPRESENTATIVE HANNA: Mike Hanna, Clinton and
8 Centre Counties.
9 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Thank you. And then I'd like
10 to have the two sponsors of the legislation we'll consider,
11 House Bill 847 and House Bill 842, give us just a brief
12 summary of their legislation, and then we can go to our
13 testimony, our presentations from our speakers.
14 REPRESENTATIVE CONKLIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
15 I'm very honored to be one of the sponsors of this
16 legislation. It's a very simple piece of legislation.
17 It's just adding a little bit extra educational
18 requirements to those individuals that are either a
19 principal or school board superintendent.
20 And what it's done, Mr. Speaker, is that they've
21 shown by studying this for a while in other states that
22 approximately 250 individuals in the state of Pennsylvania
23 have already passed the criteria which is asked for in the
24 piece of legislation. And the second part, what it's done,
25 it's shown that superintendents and supervisors that are 5
1 committed that are leaders that have the type of
2 background, their school systems are actually achieving
3 higher than those that do not. So it shows that good
4 leadership and good following is very important in the
5 education process.
6 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Representative Grucela?
7 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: Thank you, Mr.
8 Chairman.
9 My bill is rather simple as well. There's a
10 glitch in the Act 48 requirements that apparently has been
11 discovered in the dates, so somewhere in the middle of a
12 school year, someone who has not completed the Act 48
13 requirements, ends up finding out that they can no longer
14 teach the rest of the year.
15 It's a burden on the school districts. It
16 becomes somewhat as a surprise, so as a result, this
17 legislation would correct that little bit of sort of a
18 timing error that was in the original bill. So this will
19 help school districts immensely. It would also be a help
20 to those teachers whose dates fall for requirement of the
21 Act, not necessarily equal to or exactly the same as the
22 school year.
23 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
24 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Thank you.
25 We have, as usual, a rather ambitious agenda, 6
1 and we'll begin with the Secretary of Education, Dr.
2 Zahorchak.
3 DR. ZAHORCHAK: Thank you very much, Chairman.
4 And good morning, Chairman Roebuck, Chairman Stairs,
5 members of the House Education Committee, staff and guests.
6 With me today is Sharon Brumbaugh, who serves as Special
7 Assistant to the Secretary of the Department of Education,
8 and who manages our school leadership and teacher quality
9 initiatives.
10 We'd like to thank you for the opportunity to
11 discuss the administration's school leadership initiative
12 and ask you to support House Bill 847, which will lead to
13 better prepared superintendents and principals, and House
14 Bill 842, which will make technical changes to Act 48.
15 I would also like to thank Chairman Roebuck,
16 Chairman Stairs and Representative Grucela and
17 Representative Conklin for their commitment to improving
18 teacher quality and retention and for their dedication to
19 ensuring that all students in the Commonwealth have
20 highly-qualified teachers.
21 Good teaching produce high levels of student
22 achievement, and good leadership creates an environment in
23 which both students and teachers can excel. The research
24 is clear on both points; high quality teachers and
25 principals have an enormous impact on student achievement. 7
1 Because of this, Governor Rendell and the
2 Pennsylvania Department of Education, under my leadership,
3 have developed a comprehensive strategy comprised of
4 several targeted initiatives to ensure that every child
5 will be in a classroom with a highly skilled and successful
6 teacher who can help them achieve and in a school with a
7 principal who can demonstrate the leadership qualities that
8 result in both teacher and student success.
9 Last week, Dr. James Fogarty and Sharon
10 Brumbaugh testified about the Department's and the State
11 Board's efforts to improve teacher preparation, induction
12 and professional development through the regulatory changes
13 that are proposed in Chapter 49 of State Board regulations.
14 Today, I would like to focus on the development of quality
15 leaders for our schools.
16 The Administration and the Department know that
17 in order for our students and teachers to succeed, our
18 school leaders need to be of the utmost quality. Simply
19 put, no organization can reach its potential without
20 excellent leadership. However, we also know that no leader
21 can excel without the necessary and appropriate supports.
22 To address these needs, in 2005, the Department
23 of Education launched the Pennsylvania Inspired Leadership
24 program, a standards-based professional development program
25 for school leaders. There are two components in the 8
1 program. The first is called Grow, and Grow is a program
2 for novice principals and assistant principals in their
3 first through third years. And the second part is called
4 Support, and Support is a program for more experienced
5 principals, superintendents and other school leaders.
6 The focus of the P-I-L initiative is to provide
7 school leaders with high-quality professional development
8 that is based on the leadership standards recommended by a
9 working group of Pennsylvania educators. The standards
10 were drawn from research studies that identify leadership
11 behavior that have a direct impact on improving student
12 achievement.
13 These standards ensure that leaders trained in
14 the program emerge as strategic thinkers, are able to use
15 data to inform decision-making about student achievement
16 and understand how to create a learning environment that
17 supports teacher and student success.
18 The curriculum for the Grow program was
19 developed by the National Institute for School Leadership,
20 a division of the National Center for Education and the
21 Economy, and it provides the participants with the best
22 models of leadership development from education and other
23 professions, such as medicine, law and the military and
24 corporate worlds.
25 Job-embedded activities are part of the training 9
1 so that participants apply what they are learning in this
2 program to their work in schools. Administrators who
3 participate in PIL are better able to implement improved
4 leadership and management practices in their schools and
5 help teachers become more effective in the classroom.
6 As one principal commented, quote, the Grow
7 program brings principals closer to the information, to the
8 research and to the best practices involved with school and
9 curriculum design, along with student achievement. By
10 working with the National Institute for School Leadership,
11 PIL brings the nation's best educational leadership
12 training program to Pennsylvania.
13 In Massachusetts, NISL is training leadership
14 teams to go into the field to train local school leaders.
15 In Florida, NISL has trained school leadership teams in
16 Jacksonville. Bob Hughes, the Vice President of NISL,
17 will speak in more detail about their national work.
18 Participation in the program has been voluntary
19 during the development phase here in Pennsylvania, and
20 there has been and will be no cost to the participant or
21 the school district. The training program was launched at
22 four regional sites in January 2006 and was expanded to
23 eight regional sites throughout the Commonwealth in the
24 fall of 2006.
25 250 principals and assistant principals have 10
1 participated in the Grow program over the past year, and
2 193 experienced administrators have participated in the
3 Support program. Participants report high levels of
4 satisfaction and the acquisition of new knowledge and
5 skills that were not developed in their initial preparation
6 programs.
7 A comprehensive evaluation is underway to
8 measure the impact of the program on the school environment
9 and ultimately on student achievement. Based on the
10 successful results that we've seen to date, I'm pleased to
11 testify on House Bill 847 which amends the School Code to,
12 one, require a department-approved program based on
13 standards in order to be eligible to serve as a
14 superintendent or assistant superintendent; and, two,
15 require that administrative certificates issued after
16 January 2, 2008 be five-year Administrative I certificates;
17 and, three, require the completion of three years of
18 satisfactory service and the completion of the three core
19 standards of PIL in order to be eligible for the
20 Administrative II certificate.
21 The professional development hours that an
22 administrator gains from this program will count towards
23 their Act 48 requirement. The Department is prepared,
24 through the regional structure that we have built for the
25 Pennsylvania Inspired Leadership Initiative, to fully 11
1 implement the requirements in this proposed legislation and
2 to provide training for all newly-certified principals and
3 assistant principals during their first five years of
4 service.
5 In addition, we are able to expand the program
6 without increasing the operational costs because we have
7 trained a cadre of Pennsylvania facilitators who are
8 certified by NISL to deliver the program content.
9 Several individuals at that front line of school
10 reform, who have participated in the PIL program and who
11 are better equipped than I to tell you what this training
12 has meant to them, and to the students in their schools and
13 districts, are scheduled to speak to you later this
14 morning.
15 The future of Pennsylvania depends upon the
16 capacity of our public schools to provide an environment in
17 which every child can excel. First-rate teachers and
18 exceptional leadership are the tools that we need to reach
19 this goal.
20 Our children, and our state, deserve no less.
21 And by supporting House Bill 847, you will demonstrate your
22 support for ensuring that all future leaders in
23 Pennsylvania participate in high-quality preparation and
24 professional development that will help them become those
25 exceptional leaders that our children need. 12
1 Another initiative that ensures good teaching is
2 continuing professional development. As you know, the
3 legislature passed Act 48 in 1999 requiring educators to
4 continuously upgrade their skills. Under Act 48, all
5 Pennsylvania-certified educators are required to complete
6 180 hours of continuing professional education every five
7 years.
8 They may accumulate these hours through any
9 combination of collegiate studies, continuing professional
10 education courses and other programs, activities or
11 learning experiences that are offered by PDE-approved
12 providers. If the educator fails to comply with these
13 provisions, his or her certificate will become inactive.
14 It's important to note that the teacher does not
15 lose his or her certificate. However, inactive status
16 prevents educators from teaching full time in a public
17 school. Since 2000, when Act 48 went into effect, the
18 first five-year period has passed, and 99 percent of our
19 currently-active public school teachers have met the
20 180-hour requirement.
21 The Department was, however, faced with a small
22 number of educators whose certificates had to be
23 inactivated. And the law, as currently written, requires
24 that certificates be inactivated immediately, exactly at
25 the individual's five-year anniversary, even if that date 13
1 falls in the middle of the school year.
2 The real-world result is that school districts
3 are left with two choices; either, a, disrupt the
4 continuity of a child's education by replacing the teacher
5 in the middle of the year, which often means using a
6 lesser-qualified substitute teacher since there are few
7 fully-qualified teachers available for hire in the middle
8 of a school year; or, b, face an audit exception from the
9 state for retaining a teacher with an inactivated
10 certificate, allowing the teacher to continue until the end
11 of the school year.
12 Furthermore, it's worth noting that the majority
13 of the small number of teachers who failed to meet their
14 Act 48 requirements in the first five-year period were
15 those teachers who intended to retire at the end of the
16 school year anyway. In other words, the majority of
17 teachers who did not meet their Act 48 requirements this
18 past April did not do so because they knew they would not
19 be teaching any longer.
20 We believe the technical change to Act 48
21 contained in House Bill 842, limiting certificate
22 inactivation to the summer months, will enable the
23 Department to maintain high standards for the ongoing
24 training and development of educators while minimizing
25 unnecessary disruption to the classroom. 14
1 Well, thank you for this opportunity to discuss
2 the Pennsylvania Department of Education's efforts to
3 create the best teacher and school leadership corps in the
4 nation. For your review, we have packets with additional
5 information on the programs mentioned today. We will be
6 happy to answer any questions you may have.
7 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Thank you, Dr. Zahorchak.
8 We've been joined by a number of other members
9 and I ask that they might introduce themselves.
10 REPRESENTATIVE METCALFE: Good morning. Daryl
11 Metcalfe from Butler County.
12 REPRESENTATIVE ROHRER: Sam Rohrer from Berks
13 County.
14 REPRESENTATIVE BASTAIN: Bob Bastain from
15 Somerset, your neighbor.
16 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: Jake Wheatley,
17 Allegheny County.
18 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Thank you. We'll begin with
19 questions from the Committee and start with Representative
20 Carroll and come down this way.
21 Rich?
22 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: Thank you,
23 Mr. Chairman.
24 I have no questions on my bill, but I do have a
25 comment on it later. But I do have a question about 15
1 Representative Conklin's bill. We had a hearing last week,
2 and there was a tremendous emphasis on education on this
3 billion-dollar standardized testing industry. And I was
4 wondering -- and my friend, Representative Wheatley, has
5 had me thinking because he asked the question about the
6 students who are in the classroom sitting in front of a
7 teacher who may have been waived from the standardized
8 tests and how those students feel.
9 Well, I wanted to bump it up one level thinking
10 to myself, how do the teachers and students feel about
11 administrators who may have not taken the standardized
12 tests; so while we're increasing some of the requirements
13 for a superintendent, are we going to perhaps include them
14 and make them pass a standardized test as the teachers and
15 the students have to as well?
16 DR. ZAHORCHAK: Well, along the way towards
17 their certification, they -- principals, superintendents,
18 other school administrators, would be required to pass any
19 of the assessments that are related to their particular new
20 certificates. So as they move forward, prospectively
21 towards a new certificate, the regulations in place,
22 including, in some cases, the requirements for an
23 assessment, would be included.
24 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: So they would have to
25 take a standardized PRAXIS test? 16
1 DR. ZAHORCHAK: Principals take a standardized
2 assessment along the way as well.
3 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: Similar to what the
4 teachers take as a PRAXIS test?
5 DR. ZAHORCHAK: Similar in format.
6 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: Similar in the grading,
7 similar in the evaluation?
8 DR. ZAHORCHAK: Similar in the evaluation
9 framework.
10 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: Okay. I was even
11 thinking about --
12 DR. ZAHORCHAK: Of course, different because
13 it's assessing different --
14 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: Well, I was even
15 thinking about taking this one step further. As I was
16 driving home last week, again, with respect to
17 Representative Wheatley's question, had me thinking, maybe
18 we ought to have a standardized test for the State Board as
19 well.
20 You know, maybe the state systems and the
21 Education Department at Penn State could arrive at a test
22 for the State Board, since then they would have -- you
23 know, we'd all be on the same level of playing field. If
24 they're requiring all of our students and teachers and
25 principals to take standardized tests, perhaps they should 17
1 as well.
2 DR. ZAHORCHAK: Yes. And let me say that
3 today's bill on the Pennsylvania Inspired Leadership
4 program is not a bill related to testing. It's related --
5 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: Oh, I know that. I
6 understand that, but I'm making a relationship in terms of
7 you increasing the requirements for a superintendent. So
8 I'm saying, if we're doing that, why can't we give
9 standardized tests for -- I realize that.
10 I'm thinking about separate legislation that I
11 just mentioned to you or maybe an amendment to this bill.
12 I don't know. But that is an aside. My comment on my bill
13 would be, there are a number of individuals who were never
14 notified about Act 48 credits. Most of them I have found
15 could care less.
16 They're retired; they don't want to teach
17 anymore anyway. But I'm concerned about the
18 individuals -- and it's sort of related -- that Act 48
19 credits, they were never notified of the change. I mean,
20 it could be a teacher retired vacationing in Mexico
21 somewhere, you know, and I've been told it's incumbent to
22 them to know the law.
23 But I'm a little -- I don't know. There's
24 something about that that bothers me. Do we have any
25 numbers -- actually I want to know two numbers. I want to 18
1 know, are we having problems getting -- there was some
2 testimony last week that we had too many applicants for
3 elementary school. Do we have too many applicants
4 for -- let me take that one first. Do we have too many
5 applicants for superintendencies?
6 DR. ZAHORCHAK: Well, superintendencies is
7 probably a place where certificates exists, letters of
8 eligibility exists. The pools over the years have been, I
9 believe, noticeably shrinking. So for a superintendent
10 job, you would get a couple of dozen applicants; whereas,
11 in years past, there were plenty more.
12 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: So not as many as
13 before. Let me kind of rephrase the question. In other
14 meetings we've had over the years, I've heard we had
15 trouble recruiting superintendents, and now we seem to be
16 increasing the requirements when we're having trouble
17 recruiting superintendents. Is that not true?
18 DR. ZAHORCHAK: Well, let me say this: The
19 Inspired Leadership is more about supporting the
20 superintendents' quality professional development,
21 supporting principals, administrators, the Secretary of
22 Education with quality professionals related to their real
23 work.
24 So I think it really doesn't increase the
25 requirements. Superintendents have to do Act 48 credits. 19
1 What this does is provide for the superintendents, any
2 administrator in Pennsylvania, a coherent framework based
3 on standards that the superintendents themselves and
4 principals and leadership institutions have come together
5 in Pennsylvania well over a year's worth of work and
6 developed the standards for this kind of quality leadership
7 development. So I wouldn't take this as more and
8 unnecessary burden.
9 I would take this as support for Continuing
10 Education Law under Act 48 for the superintendents in our
11 schools and for the aspiring superintendents, making sure
12 they have understanding of the concepts and incumbencies
13 that are necessary and, again, in terms of practice in
14 practical terms, where most of the professional development
15 is imbedded into their real life jobs. What -- well, I'll
16 stop there.
17 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: So it won't be a
18 detriment to our recruitment?
19 DR. ZAHORCHAK: It will not be a detriment. I
20 think it -- the more things we do to support the working
21 conditions and the development of our educators, from
22 teacher to support educators through the superintendents
23 and beyond, the better chance we have of increasing the
24 people who want to do that work. The working conditions
25 are important. This particular bill goes a long way in 20
1 improving working conditions.
2 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: Okay. And one last
3 question. Let me jump back to Act 48. If someone had not
4 been notified that they had to make these requirements and
5 then they -- initially, those certificates were 99 years is
6 my recollection, but if they had been revoked and someone
7 didn't put it in escrow, is there, like, a second bite at
8 the apple? I mean --
9 DR. ZAHORCHAK: Inactive status means just that.
10 It's inactive; it's not a deleted status. So the educator
11 who finds themselves in inactive status would merely need
12 to pick up and continue the requirements. Today, because
13 of your action two years ago, Act 46 required the certified
14 teachers to determine for themselves and to keep the
15 Pennsylvania Department of Education informed of their
16 whereabouts, their addresses, etcetera.
17 So, like most professions with licenses or
18 certificates, the burden is on the individuals. We started
19 with over 5 hundred thousand certificates, holders with a
20 99-year requirement that you spoke of, and identifying them
21 was our first job.
22 We brought that down, way down to 112 thousand
23 active professionals subject to the deadline, and, again,
24 99 percent have met that. We have a very small group in
25 the appeal process, and we think as that works the way 21
1 through, a smaller group will actually be inactive.
2 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: Thank you,
3 Mr. Secretary.
4 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
5 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: Thank you,
6 Representative Grucela.
7 Other questions?
8 O'Neill?
9 REPRESENTATIVE O'NEILL: My question falls in
10 between what you're speaking towards today and what was
11 spoke last week about the certifications used on our Act
12 49. My understanding is, to be a principal at any level in
13 the public school, you just have that one certification for
14 one principal. Is that correct?
15 DR. ZAHORCHAK: Correct.
16 REPRESENTATIVE O'NEILL: Can you explain to me
17 why the Department allows someone who -- I'll take
18 elementary -- is not a certified elementary teacher, never
19 spent a day in an elementary classroom as a professional,
20 why they can become a principal and, therefore, going and
21 evaluating teachers as to the job they're doing as
22 elementary teachers when they have no background other
23 than, you know, some administrative training; and, of
24 course, the same thing for the other levels, intermediate
25 or high school or someone who's never even taught in public 22
1 school, being allowed, for that principal certification, to
2 go in and become a principal, why that's allowed and why
3 maybe something like that hasn't been addressed?
4 DR. ZAHORCHAK: Well, the principals' program
5 requires two things; one, that you have completed an
6 institution that's approved as a provider of the
7 program -- and in Pennsylvania, we have about 43 of
8 those -- and then you have to have a certain number of
9 years of teaching on a certificate.
10 So with that five years of teaching on a
11 certificate approved by Pennsylvania and the institution's
12 requirements being met, you are eligible then to be a
13 school principal in Pennsylvania. You become certified.
14 So the idea of a scope of pre-kindergarten through 12th
15 grade, we're administrating that because, of course, those
16 who are under the current certification rules; and under
17 those rules, that's how our programs get approved.
18 The approved institution is expected to provide
19 necessary supervisory oversight skills and structural
20 knowledge, etcetera, that a principal will need. We think
21 we have work to do in the preparation institutions.
22 Today's bill focuses on once you come out and start your
23 job, the development going forward. So today's bill is
24 about the development going forward.
25 We have some agreements with at least the tone 23
1 of your question, Representative, that there is some need
2 for standardizing and seriously considering the preparation
3 of principals, and we're beginning in earnest to have our
4 intelligence gathered and recommendations emerge on the
5 preparation.
6 REPRESENTATIVE O'NEILL: Thank you. You know,
7 it's something I just never understood because I always
8 thought -- and I said this last week -- the principal is
9 supposed to be a facilitator. You know, if you have a
10 young teacher, you know, right out of college, they have to
11 lean on someone to be able to assist them.
12 And if your principal was a high school math
13 teacher and never -- you know, it's real hard to go to your
14 principal if you're an elementary teacher and ask for
15 assistance if they've never walked in your shoes. The
16 other thing too is, I know a principal that only has three
17 years teaching experience, and he got his job based on the
18 school district's emergency certification, but yet they
19 were 35 applicants for the job.
20 And some of those 35 applicants were sitting
21 principals at other school districts, and certainly -- and
22 somehow the school district was able to petition the state
23 saying, well, we have a problem here, and we need to hire
24 somebody who's less than five years' teaching experience.
25 So I think that needs to be looked at because 24
1 you're still green behind the ears after three years of
2 teaching -- well, actually it was three and a half. And
3 I'll be honest with you. I was sent to that teacher's room
4 to help him with behavior management in his classroom, and
5 then he became the principal after three-and-a-half years
6 just in another school district. I don't think it's fair
7 to the students and the parents. I think that's something
8 else we can look at.
9 Thank you.
10 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Thank you.
11 Representative Wheatley?
12 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: Thank you, Mr.
13 Chairman. Good morning, Mr. Secretary, Sharon. Good to
14 see you again. I have a question, several questions
15 actually. First, just to continue my question as before,
16 is there a difference in your mind between the roles
17 principals have, principals play in the school building as
18 compared to teachers; and what is that difference, if there
19 is a difference?
20 DR. ZAHORCHAK: Well, I think there is different
21 covenants because there's a lot of similarities. One is
22 teachers and principals are sort of the architects of
23 systems in the classroom, the systems of that classroom,
24 making sure that the teacher understands the grading, the
25 teaching strategies, how to help struggling students, how 25
1 to make assessments ongoing and form assessments of
2 students developing growth against standards that the state
3 has; and at the principal levels thinking about, well, in
4 adults, how will I develop the systems that help my entire
5 staff understand the standards and how they relate to their
6 curriculum and how they relate to best teaching practices,
7 how do I develop the staff in terms of systematically and
8 differentiated approaches to their own professional
9 development, how do I take the cumulative data from the
10 school building.
11 So a lot of similarities that you frame are both
12 after the same end result, student achievement, but
13 obviously, a lot of differences between the role of the
14 principal and superintendent; one being if I was a
15 principal in a classroom teacher, one being one that both
16 of you communicate well with your staff, etcetera.
17 When we built our statewide leadership standards, the
18 nine standards this program is based on, we thought about
19 everyone, all adults in the school. We had teachers and
20 others at the table, so it's sort of, you know, inspired
21 leadership at every level. Today's focus of Pennsylvania
22 Inspired Leadership initiative is on principals and
23 especially first-year principals and third year and on all
24 other administrators.
25 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: I guess for, just 26
1 because I'm not an educator because I view this from the
2 House line in, I've always operated an assumption -- and
3 maybe you're correcting this today -- that principals were
4 more like the managers of the building, the direction of
5 the building and education and along that; and teachers
6 were more of the practitioners to execute the vision and
7 try to bring all of their knowledge and wherewithal to the
8 forefront as they try to implement whatever the building
9 structure or management vision was.
10 And they do work together, but somehow the
11 functions and the roles were a little different, in that,
12 while we're required to run a building, it's different
13 than what's required to operating in the classroom. But I
14 just want clarity for my own sake, so --
15 DR. ZAHORCHAK: And I think you described that
16 very artfully, and I would not disagree with anything you
17 said.
18 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: And with that being
19 said, going back to House Bill 847, I guess, one, when we
20 talk about the standard-based qualifications and what makes
21 a great principal, what makes a great superintendent or
22 what can we use as models, I'm interested in what were the
23 models, what were the actual models that you saw as
24 successful models to implement to get you to your
25 standards? 27
1 Like, what are qualifications that will be
2 necessary? Were there certain districts? Were there
3 certain states when you were doing this that you looked at
4 as models, and if so, which ones and who?
5 MS. BRUMBAUGH: There's a significant amount of
6 research that looks at the characteristics that make a
7 difference in student achievement, and that's really -- the
8 working group of administrators and folks from higher ed
9 and folks from clubs, schools and statewide associations
10 and others -- it was a rather large group -- they were
11 asked to look at some of the national standards and the
12 research on school leadership that made a difference, and
13 that's how our standards were developed.
14 It's really those skills, the knowledge and
15 skills, that leaders need to impact student achievement.
16 And some of the research studies -- and I think Dr.
17 Zahorchak and you have summarized, but it's really -- a
18 leader makes a difference in two important ways; it's in
19 putting a structure in place processes a climate in the
20 school that encourages learning, good teaching and
21 learning, and also the leaders support teachers in helping
22 them to understand how we use data to encourage student
23 achievement and so forth.
24 So it's really, it's the climate of the building
25 and the way the administrator works with teachers to help 28
1 them do their best that makes the biggest difference, so
2 this program that we put in place is really designed to
3 help leaders do that.
4 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: And at this work
5 group, at this meeting, did they talk about if, in fact,
6 what you are implementing is the standard across the board,
7 things that would improve all student achievement in the
8 leadership that will be marketable to them, or were there
9 differences that were found that was required harder to
10 educate or harder to implement or whatever? Were those
11 types of things included in this work group?
12 MS. BAUMBAUGH: I think it's a standard as far
13 as what leaders should have, the knowledge and skills
14 leaders have. The way they implement it and the kind of
15 resources they bring to their schools are going to vary,
16 but it doesn't -- you know, the standard is the same for
17 everyone. The strategies they use, the approaches they
18 use, they need to learn all of those different approaches
19 that they can bring to the school.
20 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: So will the
21 Department, as they move forward with this standards-based
22 approach, will the Department also come in some time and
23 also recommend some resources and strategies that would
24 also be helpful to these principals or superintendents? As
25 they move into certain districts, will you have another 29
1 program, or is there something else coming down the pipe
2 line?
3 MS. BAUMBAUGH: We have that built into our
4 curriculum, you know, the various tools that the Department
5 has developed to help leaders in schools.
6 DR. ZAHORCHAK: And I think that's very
7 important what you just said. We take the framework from
8 these standards and curriculum that is a national-based
9 model with the best adult teaching theory for that
10 curriculum.
11 What we also have interwoven really well, the
12 tools that we have here in Pennsylvania, we have a really
13 dynamic set of tools that school leaders understand are for
14 struggling schools and how do you plan to bring student
15 achievement development in a school that really struggles.
16 So we're about the state in our regions,
17 everything we do in terms of support for struggling schools
18 is well aligned at the leadership level, at the teacher
19 reform discussions, etcetera, etcetera. So it's a great
20 question.
21 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: Two smaller, or short
22 questions that I have is, one -- this goes to Department's
23 capacity. And I'm curious, as a Department, do you think
24 that you have the capacity currently to, one, implement the
25 stringent requirements, but also trap what's happening in 30
1 the districts across the Commonwealth as it relates to if
2 we're getting highly-qualified teachers in every classroom.
3 And the same goes to principals and administrators. I
4 mean, do you have the capacity to do that?
5 DR. ZAHORCHAK: We really have built systems,
6 and we use the Department of Education to help implement
7 those systems. But we also use our regional service
8 centers that help implement the system, using our supports
9 from associations, and other schools have the same support.
10 We've been about the business of being very
11 clear on what our expectations are, how we are building our
12 systems and how we build the supports within those systems
13 and then how we share the responsibilities from school
14 principal, in this case, through the regional service
15 providers to the Department of Education.
16 So it's really about the systems, and I do
17 believe in this state with folks who are around young
18 children, starting with classroom levels, we have the
19 capacity to do that.
20 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: And absent of what I
21 didn't see in the language is qualification -- and maybe
22 this is coming down the pipe too. I remember the Governor
23 talked about the opportunity to professionalize -- not
24 professionalize, but to treat sometimes principals
25 differently than you do teachers and empower 31
1 superintendents to use them as managers, so to speak, so
2 that the process now -- and I guess it takes two years to
3 remove a principal for cause from a building, and what
4 we've seen is that sometimes two years is a critical time
5 for a child's learning and for a school's culture.
6 Is there some piece of legislation that you have
7 from the Governor's office that you empower
8 superintendents, to be able to use and treat
9 superintendents like managers and not as union force?
10 DR. ZAHORCHAK: Governor Rendell is serious at
11 every level about providing high demand accountability
12 systems, and at the same time, providing high levels of
13 support. So I would not hesitate to say the kind of
14 framework that the Governor has been discussing is a
15 framework that eventually would improve,
16 again -- eventually would have kinds of improvements and
17 supports for working principals to make sure they have the
18 levers that they need in terms of personnel, decisions that
19 they make in terms of hiring personnel, removing personnel,
20 etcetera, giving the conditions, the kind of support it
21 would need and, at the same time, working on accountability
22 so that we do see principals always being held to the same
23 standards.
24 I think accountability under the frame of No
25 Child Left Behind has put an enormous pressure on our 32
1 schools at every level, and programs like Inspired
2 Leadership responds to that pressure by --
3 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: Well, I guess I was
4 just asking the simple question that you thought it was, in
5 your research, necessary for superintendents who are trying
6 to get their districts to perform at higher levels to have
7 the ability treat principals differently than they do their
8 teachers, in that, to treat them as managers and hold them
9 accountable as managers.
10 DR. ZAHORCHAK: I think we have good efforts
11 and, again, while we're talking about additional
12 accountability, simultaneously, we're talking about the
13 kinds of supports in the system.
14 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: Thank you.
15 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Are there any other
16 questions?
17 (No response.)
18 I'd like to thank the Secretary for their
19 presentation.
20 DR. ZAHORCHAK: Thanks, again.
21 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: We're being joined by, I
22 believe, two other committee members.
23 REPRESENTATIVE BEYER: Representative Karen
24 Beyer.
25 REPRESENTATIVE YUDICHAK: John Yudichak. 33
1 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Thank you.
2 Pennsylvania School Board Association.
3 MR. ALLWEIN: Good morning. My comments will be
4 very brief, although, I hope very meaningful. My name is
5 Tim Allwein, and I'm the Assistant Executive Director for
6 Governmental and Member Relations for the Pennsylvania
7 School Boards Association. As always, thank you for
8 inviting PSBA to testify on this very important issue.
9 It's hard to believe that four years ago, we
10 testified to this committee regarding the shortage of
11 qualified individuals who were willing to become school
12 administrators.
13 At that time, we related what Representative
14 Grucela was alluding to earlier, that although the number
15 of individuals having the proper certification was at an
16 all-time high, there were simply too many disincentives for
17 those individuals to make the leap from classroom teacher
18 to administrator.
19 And although the numbers of certificates has
20 gone down, to a large extent, those conditions still exist.
21 The huge difference in the levels of responsibility, the
22 number of hours and days that a school administrator puts
23 in for the small increase in pay over that of classroom
24 teacher is keeping many qualified individuals in the
25 classroom as well as keeping those who might be interested 34
1 in making the jump in the classroom as well.
2 We think that the Pennsylvania Inspired
3 Leadership program can be a part of the solution to this
4 problem, or it can simply make it worse. No one will argue
5 for the need for leadership training for school
6 administrators.
7 In this day and age of academic standards,
8 high-stakes testing and potentially embarrassing public
9 consequences for schools or school districts that don't
10 meet their academic goals, it is extremely important for
11 those who run our public schools not only to know how the
12 system is supposed to work, but how to help students within
13 the system and how to use the data that the system produces
14 to help all children succeed academically.
15 However, there remains a practical side to
16 running a school or a school district that does not appear
17 to be addressed by this program. Learning Special
18 Education Law, indeed the entire body of school law, which
19 is, as you all know, is significant. How to deal with
20 parents; what about school safety, interscholastic
21 athletics or how to implement a new law or regulation are
22 all examples of the kinds of practical day-to-day training
23 that school leaders need to be well rounded.
24 Our concerns are simply this: Whether or not
25 the schedule for the Pennsylvania Inspired Leadership 35
1 program leaves any time for training on the more practical
2 types of issues that I just outlined, how will the training
3 mandated by this program affect an individual's Act 48
4 standing; is it a replacement or a compliment to Act 48
5 training? And we're very happy to hear the Secretary
6 testify that the training under the Inspired Leadership
7 Program will count towards Act 48.
8 But the question that still remains unanswered,
9 and I don't know that we have a good idea, is how many
10 hours will it involve and how many hours -- or rather will
11 a principal or superintendent be able to be involved in
12 that program, be involved in other types of training and
13 spend enough time in his or her school district? Will
14 there be enough hours in the day?
15 Finally, will there be a cost to school
16 districts as the program expands? These are important
17 questions because if the answer that these new requirements
18 will take additional training, more hours, more time away
19 from the school, as I said earlier, the program may become
20 just one more disincentive for individuals to move from the
21 classroom into the administrative offices.
22 If, on the other hand, the required training is
23 part of an individual's Act 48 obligation -- and, again, we
24 heard that it will be -- and it does not require a huge
25 investment of time, we think the program could become one 36
1 that inspires those with administrative certificates or the
2 interest of being an administrator to leave the classroom
3 for supervisory positions.
4 Certainly, the prospect of having a mentor with
5 whom an individual can share their problems and
6 frustrations and who can share their years of experience is
7 one that we believe most administrators would probably
8 welcome.
9 Finally, on House Bill 847, we believe that
10 you're taking the proper course of action in considering
11 this piece of legislation. As you know, there was some
12 talk about the State Board of Education adopting
13 regulations to put this program into place.
14 We do not believe that the Board has the
15 authority to do so under current law, and we believe that,
16 again, that the proper thing to do is to have this bill
17 considered and passed and then for the State Board to adopt
18 regulations.
19 Hopefully, once those regulations are adopted,
20 it will only be changed with input from all the interested
21 parties, and we do not see another use of the final
22 admitted procedure which cuts down on the ability for PSBA
23 or other interested parties to make comments. Regarding
24 House Bill 842, we have no problems with that.
25 I think it would be hard to argue that the 37
1 failure to meet Act 48 requirement does not automatically
2 make somebody a bad teacher, and I would echo the comments
3 of the Secretary and Representative Grucela that it should
4 not be about disrupting the lives of students; we should
5 not be disrupting the flow of school district work
6 throughout the year by telling a teacher that he or she can
7 no longer teach simply because they did not meet their Act
8 48 requirements. So with that, I'll take your questions.
9 Thank you.
10 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Thank you.
11 Questions?
12 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: Thank you,
13 Mr. Chairman.
14 Tim, I'm a little bit confused here, and
15 I -- you say here the conditions -- the Secretary testified
16 that this wouldn't be a detriment to recruitment or
17 retention of our superintendents. You sort of agree at the
18 end here, I believe, about what they're doing, but you say
19 here these conditions still exist.
20 MR. ALLWEIN: Right.
21 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: Do you believe these
22 requirements would be a burden on school districts
23 recruiting superintendents?
24 MR. ALLWEIN: Well, again, I think that there's
25 a potential for them to be. You all know that school 38
1 principals and school superintendents are very busy people,
2 and there will be a number of those folks testifying after
3 me who will certainly tell you that. Not only is there
4 work at their school or their school district very
5 important and very time consuming, the day-to-day things
6 that they have to deal and consider -- they already have to
7 meet Act 48 -- and now we're talking about another program.
8 Again, as I said, if the training that is
9 required under this program is complementary to their Act
10 48 training -- and, again, the Secretary testified that it
11 would, indeed, count for Act 48 credits.
12 What we don't know is how many hours are going
13 to be involved because if you look at the proposed
14 regulation and all the things that they're talking about, I
15 mean, these are things that I think you would all agree
16 aren't things you can teach with a three-hour course.
17 They are things that are going to take some time
18 for the teachers who teach these things to relate to the
19 administrators that take the classes. So I'm hoping that
20 it's not a detriment. It's a good program. I think the
21 training is training that is needed.
22 We're just saying that we need to be -- we need
23 to be a little bit more clear on how much time this is
24 going to take and how it fits in with all of the other
25 duties and responsibilities that our administrators have 39
1 right now. But to address your first question, we found
2 that there are still a lot of individuals out there with
3 the proper certifications to become principals that are
4 still teaching in the classroom. It's not as many as there
5 were four years ago, but there's several hundred.
6 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: Let me ask it in this
7 way as well: The best superintendent that I ever served
8 under came from Massachusetts. He knew education; he knew
9 finances; he knew politics. I don't think in the twelve
10 years he served that he ever had a vote that was lost at
11 the school board, so he was an extremely intelligent guy.
12 He's now the Secretary of Education in Colorado.
13 But my question is, what about an out-of-state person? I
14 know there are situations I've been told of where good
15 science and math teachers, especially from out of state,
16 look at our state and say, well, I have to jump through all
17 those bureaucratic hoops; you know, I'm a great science
18 teacher; I've been here five years in New Jersey, and now I
19 have to take these tests in Pennsylvania; I'll stay in New
20 Jersey.
21 So my question is, what about out of state?
22 What if I'm an out-of-state individual, all of a sudden
23 looking at Pennsylvania and saying, well, they've added
24 more bureaucratic hoops to me becoming the superintendent?
25 Do you think this will harm -- I can understand in state 40
1 and I can understand classroom moving up, but I'm wondering
2 about the recruitment of out-of-state individuals.
3 MR. ALLWEIN: Well, I think my first statement
4 would be, number one, it all depends on how this program is
5 marketed. I don't think, as I read both the legislation
6 and the proposed regulation, that there are any additional
7 tests. I know that was asked of the Secretary. But this
8 program itself does not include any tests that I'm aware
9 of.
10 It's simply training. And, again, I think an
11 important part of this is how it's relayed to other people
12 in other states and, again, if it can be marketed such that
13 this is a complement to the training that you would have to
14 get anyway. And the fact that, I believe that as part of
15 this program, there would be a mentor; there would be
16 somebody to help you through it, I think that it might not
17 become a detriment.
18 But, again, there's certainly a potential that
19 it could. It all depends on the, again, the time
20 commitment, how we market it and how we make sure that
21 we're saying that, yeah, there's additional training, but
22 it's going to complement what you already have to do anyway
23 in Pennsylvania.
24 It can go either way. And I think we have to
25 make those tough decisions now, and we have to make sure 41
1 that everybody knows what it is that we're dealing with
2 with this program.
3 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: You just said two
4 things that are relevant to my last two questions. One of
5 the best lines I've ever seen happen here, there remains a
6 practical side to running a school or school district.
7 That's what we forget a lot of times. We forget the
8 everyday practical side of the school district. And you
9 mentioned -- and I know you mentioned the testing because I
10 was going to ask you that as well.
11 I'm seriously considering amending this bill to
12 me have these people -- I hate to make it more burdensome,
13 but I think the PRAXIS tests too, I believe if all the
14 teachers are taking it and everybody else is taking it, we
15 might as well have these people take it too. I mean, I
16 hate to aid the billion-dollar testing industry, but I have
17 to think about that. How do you feel about that? Should
18 they take a PRAXIS test?
19 MR. ALLWEIN: I'm not familiar enough with the
20 PRAXIS test to say yes or no, but I had thought that the
21 PRAXIS tests were all subject related, so that if you're a
22 math teacher, you'd take a math PRAXIS; if you're teaching
23 social -- no? You're saying no? I don't know.
24 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: You can make the
25 PRAXIS -- I think Representative O'Neill and I could write 42
1 a test and some of the others that have been around here,
2 but seriously, I'm just, you know --
3 MR. ALLWEIN: Well, again --
4 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: There's a Secretary
5 Education curriculum that a superintendent ought to know.
6 MR. ALLWEIN: Well, there's no question about
7 that, and I don't know if there's a requirement -- there
8 should be a requirement to take a test, but, again, I think
9 in this standards-based education world that we live in
10 where there is so much testing, not only of students, but
11 of teachers and everybody else, that certainly anybody
12 who's going to lead our schools has to have a knowledge of
13 testing and how testing works and why one test works and
14 why another one doesn't.
15 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: I know it's
16 standards-based, and I may be off base with this comment;
17 but, you know, in my 30 years in the classroom, every time
18 the Governor changed, we had a change in -- you know, in
19 four years from now, I don't know what it will be. I mean,
20 I went through them all, you know, the cooperative
21 learning, classrooms without walls.
22 I don't remember all of them. I remember that I
23 was too young to pay attention in my younger years and
24 didn't care about paying attention to them when I was
25 older. But I never had a student come back to me after 30 43
1 years and say, you know, Mr. Grucela, you didn't follow the
2 standards.
3 But I'm curious because you mentioned mentoring
4 here, and I know your association was opposed to
5 Representative Surra's alternate certification for the
6 testing. And you mention here, you know, you want to
7 mentor the principals and the superintendents, but part of
8 Representative Surra's alternate certification was
9 mentoring.
10 I mean, is there a disconnect here in your
11 thinking that you don't want to mentor these people who
12 could be great teachers, but yet want to mentor these who
13 may be great principals and superintendents?
14 MR. ALLWEIN: Well, again, there's a part of
15 Representative Surra's bill that we thought was a problem
16 with the fact that you had a PRAXIS test that's a
17 requirement that these folks didn't pass.
18 And I'm not going to sit here and defend the
19 PRAXIS test, but if you have a requirement that you got to
20 do something to be a teacher and you don't do it, then why
21 have the requirement? So it seems to me that either we
22 want the PRAXIS test to be a requirement or we don't.
23 Mentoring, I think would be -- you know, mentoring is very
24 helpful for principals, superintendents or teachers; but,
25 again, mentoring is part of this program. 44
1 Mentoring is not a requirement, as I understand
2 it, to become a teacher, to become a principal. All I'm
3 saying is that in the context of the Inspired Leadership
4 program, one of the advantages, I believe, is that a person
5 going through the program will have a mentor.
6 And, you know, as a person becomes an
7 administrator and starts to learn about all the different
8 things that he or she has to deal with, that it would be
9 helpful for them to have a mentor, someone who they can
10 bounce things off, ask questions, share their
11 disappointments or their successes or whatever and have
12 someone there that basically can take them by the hand and
13 help them through it.
14 It would be helpful probably for teachers to
15 have the same, but, again, to the extent that you have a
16 requirement to become a teacher and then someone doesn't
17 meet that requirement, then we should either change the
18 requirement and do something different, not necessarily
19 say, well, you don't have to meet this requirement and you
20 can become a teacher. That's all I was saying.
21 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: Just one final comment,
22 and I have to say this because it's so relevant. I had a
23 young man shadow me yesterday as part of a requirement for
24 his graduation project or something, and he was quite an
25 interesting young kid. He looked like Michael J. Fox. I 45
1 had a sweater on; he had a suit on.
2 And he, you know, he was second or third in his
3 class. He had 1750 on his SATs and a nice young man. We
4 had quite a discussion about all the standardized testing,
5 the PSSAs and the SATs. I don't know that this happened,
6 but he told me PSSAs were given one week after the SATs.
7 He told me that, himself included, you know, the PSSA is
8 for the school; most students don't feel it does anything
9 for them, etcetera, etcetera.
10 But what I'm getting at is, you know, I think at
11 some point, we need to have the Department, you guys and a
12 couple other people, we ought to have a hearing with a
13 cross-section of students across the state and, you know,
14 for all levels. And you people need -- and I think about
15 your sentence here about the practical side.
16 You need to hear from some of these students,
17 not necessarily the teachers, the administrators, the
18 bureaucrats that are out here in Harrisburg; but at some
19 point, we need to listen to some of these students because
20 these students -- you can't fool kids. Anyone who taught
21 can tell you that.
22 And I think some of us -- all of us need to hear
23 sometimes -- you know, I really enjoyed that young man
24 yesterday. He brought me back to the classroom, and he
25 opened my eyes about a lot of things that maybe we should 46
1 be doing. But anyway, thank you.
2 MR. ALLWEIN: I think that would be very
3 interesting.
4 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Thank you.
5 Representative Beyer?
6 REPRESENTATIVE BEYER: I hope you can hear me.
7 Good morning, Tim. You said a couple things that I thought
8 were very troubling, and that is, you say you're really
9 concerned about the curriculum of this program. I mean, is
10 it really going to keep, as Representative Grucela said,
11 kind of hands-on practical day-to-day experience with
12 administrators? Would you elaborate on that a little bit?
13 MR. ALLWEIN: Sure. I would -- I have a copy of
14 those proposed regulations, I think -- and these are just a
15 couple examples, and I'm not trying to denigrate any of
16 this. These are all important. A leader has the knowledge
17 and skills to teach the class strategically creating an
18 organized vision around personalized student's success,
19 grounding its standards-based system's theory, access and
20 using appropriate data.
21 And it goes on and on, and, again, all of those
22 things are very important. But a school leader deals with
23 much more than those kinds of things. I mean, we see it
24 all the time with school board members who have to deal
25 with providing a good education versus the cost. 47
1 But it's the school leader or administrator
2 that's trying to help student achievement versus managing
3 the school and dealing with the day-to-day things that come
4 up. And our concern is that we have too much of maybe one
5 thing here, and it may not leave enough room for the other
6 kind of more practical kinds of things.
7 And, you know, my motive in saying that is a
8 little bit selfish because PSBA provided a lot of the
9 training on the more practical things. We do seminars on
10 school law; we do seminars on all kinds of things on Act 1,
11 on the Charter School Law.
12 Every major education law that passes, we do a
13 lot of training for boards that are attended by school
14 administrators, whether it be principals or
15 superintendents. And so our concern, again, is that we may
16 be overloading on the academic stuff, which is all
17 necessary, and not leaving time for the other things. So
18 that's all.
19 REPRESENTATIVE BEYER: I always get concerned
20 about, at least in the time I've spent on the Education
21 Committee, every time the Department of Education comes
22 along with another regulatory thing.
23 You know, the hair stands out on the back of my
24 neck and I start getting concerned because I think,
25 oftentimes, what they propose is not practical, very 48
1 difficult to implement, ties the hands of school officials,
2 ties the hands of school boards. But here we go again with
3 another issue when we don't even have any idea what the
4 cost might be to school districts at all.
5 MR. ALLWEIN: Well, and, I mean, the Secretary
6 testified that, up to this point with all the folks that
7 they have trained, there has been no cost. I'm not sure
8 once it is given to everybody what that will look like.
9 REPRESENTATIVE BEYER: And it's over a
10 three-year period. It's not over 5 months or 6 months or
11 even 12 months; 3 years. And that should be another kind
12 of red flag I think you're bringing up. And although all
13 these concepts are great, it is difficult to implement. So
14 generally you -- I think this should be a change, not a
15 regulatory change, but one that is drafted in legislation.
16 MR. ALLWEIN: Well, I think certainly that's the
17 first step, the first step that needs to happen. I think
18 there was some confusion perhaps that the Department had
19 the authority to develop the regulations under Act 48. We
20 don't think that they do. Again, I'm very glad to see that
21 we're doing the legislative thing first.
22 REPRESENTATIVE BEYER: Thank you.
23 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
24 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Thank you.
25 Representative Wheatley? 49
1 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: Thank you,
2 Mr. Chairman.
3 Good morning, Tim. I have a question. Were you
4 a part of the work group, or your association, were you
5 invited to be a part of the work group who --
6 MR. ALLWEIN: We were not.
7 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: You were not. Do you
8 have any of the research-based analysis for what went into
9 making decisions around the standards that they would be
10 using to train principals or superintendents? Do you have
11 any of that?
12 MR. ALLWEIN: We don't have any of that. We
13 just know what is of public record.
14 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: So do you -- you don't
15 know right now -- I mean, I heard in your earlier comments
16 that you don't find much problem with what they want to
17 train on, but it's more of just kind of how it's integrated
18 with what principals or school leaders already, or
19 superintendents, already have responsibilities for.
20 MR. ALLWEIN: That's correct.
21 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: Going back to the
22 practical question of implementation, as an association, as
23 you deal with your various board members across the
24 Commonwealth, you mentioned that there are things that you
25 train your superintendents or your principals on as you see 50
1 is important. How do you determine those things?
2 MR. ALLWEIN: Those things are determined,
3 number one, obviously, for example, administrative law that
4 school districts are accepting, and obviously there would
5 be a need for that; things like Act 1, charter school
6 initiative --
7 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: Do you train -- I'm
8 sorry. Do you train the principals on that?
9 MR. ALLWEIN: Well, no. We actually, we are the
10 School Boards Association. Our training is meant for
11 school board members, but oftentimes, we will have
12 superintendents.
13 More often superintendents than principals
14 attend those sessions because many things that we do tend
15 to be, tend to treat the school district kind of in the big
16 picture. So it would be the superintendent more than the
17 principal's responsibility, so --
18 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: Are they required, are
19 the superintendents required to learn that?
20 MR. ALLWEIN: Some of our courses are eligible
21 for Act 48, so that superintendents that attend those
22 sessions can get Act 48 credit.
23 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: And one reason I'm
24 asking this line of questioning is because I'm trying to
25 get a good sense for me to understand what are the 51
1 necessary skills and knowledge base that a superintendent
2 will need or a principal will need in order to do their job
3 affectively.
4 And sometimes I'm getting confused, and maybe
5 others are, around the roles because I see a difference in
6 what the school board's responsibility and roles are to a
7 district compared to a superintendent role and
8 responsibility compared to a principal's role and
9 responsibility.
10 And not that all of them shouldn't be aware of
11 new laws that are implemented in the state, but their main
12 responsibility isn't determinant by if they know that law
13 or not. So I'm trying to get to a sense, when you talk
14 about the time commitment of a principal or superintendent
15 and what they have to learn, how much time of what they're
16 learning and what they're being held responsible for is
17 actually part of improving their role of what they are
18 responsible for.
19 And the only way I know that is what they've
20 been held accountable to learning now compared to what will
21 be the new introduction of what they're being held
22 accountable for. Can you help me understand that?
23 MR. ALLWEIN: Well, and let me, again, say that
24 there are a number of superintendents and principals
25 following me that might have a better handle on that, but I 52
1 think the confusion comes because there are dual roles for
2 school administrators.
3 They are educators, number one, first and
4 foremost; but, as I believe you said earlier, they are
5 managers. So they have to look at the big picture,
6 especially under No Child Left Behind; how are my students
7 doing, not just on the aggregate, but how are each and
8 every student doing.
9 You know, we would all say they would be
10 probably less well served by the school system
11 traditionally than the students on the aggregate might be;
12 how is every student doing, whether they have a disability
13 or not; do I have the right special ed classes; do I have
14 the right classes for kids who are poverty; do I have the
15 right classes for kids who are limited English learning.
16 That's the number one concern. But the other
17 concern is, okay, I've got somebody coming in right now who
18 doesn't like their kid's IEP; what are my responsibilities;
19 what can I do legally; what are the things -- what are my
20 options. Okay? I've got a kid who was just declared
21 ineligible to play in the play-off basketball game; what
22 can I do; what should I do.
23 And the principal -- again, there may be
24 somebody on staff. Every school district has a solicitor.
25 There may be people who might be able to tell them that; 53
1 the athletic director, the Director of Special Education,
2 but if those people aren't available, sometimes a principal
3 or superintendent may have to make a decision before they
4 can -- so they need to have some knowledge in some of those
5 more practical things as well.
6 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: I don't want to draw
7 up the time. I just want to know, in your opinion, who
8 should, or how should that be determined on what is the
9 necessary knowledge base for a superintendent or training
10 level, and what is the necessary knowledge base for a
11 superintendent in order to do their role, their assigned
12 role?
13 MR. ALLWEIN: I think the superintendents and
14 principals as a whole have to decide that for themselves,
15 what they're comfortable with, because they may be
16 comfortable knowing a lot of what's in this program and
17 nothing else, but they may feel that they need more
18 knowledge on other things as well.
19 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: So you don't even
20 believe that the school board should set that determination
21 or the Department? Your thinking is that we should leave
22 that to independent superintendent as well as the
23 independent principal?
24 MR. ALLWEIN: School board members don't
25 necessarily approve the classes or training that a 54
1 superintendent or a principal might make. I think they may
2 hire the person, and they do so with the assumption that
3 that person will get the training that they think is
4 necessary.
5 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: Thank you.
6 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
7 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Any other questions?
8 (No response.)
9 Let me just make an observation, in that, as I
10 listen to your testimony, you sort of turn on its head at
11 least some of the things that I've been hearing about
12 administrators and teachers.
13 My wife, who teaches, tells me often, the only
14 way you get rewarded as a teacher is to become an
15 administrator and that, in reality, that's where the real
16 incentive is in terms of salary, yet you suggest that there
17 is a disincentive in doing that. So I'm a little, I guess
18 I'm a bit confused. Maybe give me something I can say to
19 her to get her straight.
20 MR. ALLWEIN: Well, I think if you look at a
21 classroom teacher and you look at a building principal, for
22 example, in many districts, the salary level isn't that big
23 a difference. Some places it is; some places it's not.
24 Classroom principal, 365 days a year; classroom
25 teacher, 9 months; classroom teacher, teach the kids, talk 55
1 to the parents, do what needs to be done to make sure your
2 students are getting the best education possible; school
3 principal, not only making sure that their teachers are
4 doing all that, I have to deal with a disgruntled parent
5 that doesn't like whatever; I got to deal with kids who are
6 doing something that they shouldn't be doing, vandalizing
7 the building.
8 I mean, there's just all kinds of different
9 things that create a different level of responsibility
10 between the two. And all I'm saying is that because
11 there's, in many instances, not all that much difference in
12 salary, someone in the classroom might say, you know, I'm
13 not sure I want to do all this other stuff; I want to do
14 what I'm good at; I've been doing it, and I want to teach
15 my kids and work nine months a year and let it go at that.
16 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Okay. Thank you.
17 I think we've been joined by two more members.
18 John, do you want to introduce yourself?
19 REPRESENTATIVE PALLONE: John Pallone, Armstrong
20 and Westmoreland Counties.
21 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Thank you.
22 And Representative Kirkland?
23 REPRESENTATIVE KIRKLAND: Thaddeus Kirkland,
24 Delaware County.
25 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Thank you. 56
1 I call then on Ron Cowell from the Education
2 Policy and Leadership Center. I think all of us know, Ron
3 Cowell is a former member of the legislature and a former
4 member of the committee, so we welcome him.
5 MR. COWELL: Chairman, members of the committee,
6 thanks very much for the opportunity to be with you today
7 and to offer comments concerning House Bill 847,
8 number 961. I am President of the Education Policy and
9 Leadership Center. And I, in the interest of time, I'm
10 going to not read the introductory material.
11 Many of you know EPLC well. I would simply say
12 that we're based here in Harrisburg. We're active
13 throughout Pennsylvania. Our reason for existing is to try
14 to improve the use of and the implementation of state level
15 education policy.
16 I do note on pages 1 and 2, that since our
17 beginning in 1999, we have focused on six education policy
18 goals, and the fourth one that I would reference for
19 today's purposes is ensure that all Pennsylvania school
20 districts and every school shall have school leaders that
21 promote and support high achievement for all students
22 through effective instructional leadership, school
23 management and governance.
24 And House Bill 847 is especially pertinent to
25 our Education Goal 4 concerning school leaders. As part of 57
1 our work to promote public and policymaker attention to
2 issues pertaining to school leaders, EPLC convened a study
3 group to consider issues concerning school principals and
4 school district superintendents.
5 This work was done with the partnership of the
6 Pennsylvania Association of School Administrators and the
7 Pennsylvania Administration of Elementary and Secondary
8 School Principals. The EPLC School Leadership study group
9 met several times.
10 We conducted other focus groups involving school
11 leaders and conducted other research. In October 2006, we
12 published our report entitled, Strengthening School
13 Leadership, Preparing and Supporting Superintendents and
14 Principals.
15 And that is the document that was provided to
16 you along with this testimony. I'll only comment about
17 those parts of our report that are relevant to the issues
18 of House Bill 847. Although, I would encourage you, when
19 you have the time, to take a look at the full report, its
20 findings and its recommendations.
21 We said in our report that principals and
22 superintendents must be able to create an organizational
23 vision focused on student success and communicate the
24 vision to all relevant stakeholders; create a culture of
25 teaching and learning in which student learning is 58
1 paramount; manage resources effectively to bring about
2 desired results, collaborate, communicate, engage and
3 empower others both inside and outside the organization and
4 in the larger community; operate fairly and equitably
5 displaying personal and professional integrity; make
6 informed decisions based upon the best information
7 available; advocate for public education for children in
8 the larger political, social, economic, legal and cultural
9 context; support the professional growth of self and others
10 through practice and inquiry.
11 This list of standards, included in our report
12 and endorsed by the EPLC study group, actually was
13 developed by the PDE's work group on School Leadership
14 standards in 2004 and 2005, and the list is embedded in the
15 Pennsylvania Inspired Leadership program and implemented by
16 the Pennsylvania Department of Education.
17 It is important to acknowledge the leadership of
18 Secretary Zahorchak and the Department on this matter of
19 strengthening school leadership in Pennsylvania. The PIL
20 program is the manifestation of a special commitment to
21 strengthen school leadership in Pennsylvania and is one of
22 the vital elements of a broad set of strategies to improve
23 student achievement throughout the Commonwealth.
24 You likely would not be having this discussion
25 today were it not for leadership of the Secretary and the 59
1 Department on this issue. Frankly, there seems to be
2 growing consensus that these PIL standards are the right
3 standards to apply to preparation and professional
4 development programs for school administrators.
5 The greater debate seems to be about how to
6 provide for the implementation of the standards. While I
7 certainly have opinions about some key issues pertinent to
8 the legislation, I believe that I can be most helpful to
9 the Committee today by asking some framing questions that
10 you might consider as you analyze and deliberate about
11 House Bill 847 or any similar legislation intended to deal
12 with the matter of preparation and professional development
13 for school leaders.
14 I note that -- this is not in the written
15 testimony, but those of you who have been on this committee
16 for a while know that some issues come around somewhat
17 rarely, and you may have an opportunity to tackle an
18 important issue in some comprehensive way maybe every six
19 years, eight years, every ten years.
20 This is probably the most important legislation
21 or legislative proposal on this issue of school leadership
22 since the enactment of Act 48, and so it's simply a
23 suggestion that, at least for the questions I pose, step
24 back and look at the broader picture of school leadership
25 and school leadership issues rather than just the words 60
1 that happen to be on the sheet of paper in this proposed
2 legislation.
3 On its face, it's pretty hard to tell exactly
4 what House Bill 847 is authorizing or mandating. You know
5 well that there's always a great debate about how much
6 detail should be provided in statute and how much the
7 General Assembly should rely upon a regulatory agency.
8 That's the primary question you face now.
9 I suggest you consider the following additional
10 questions and issues in considering House Bill 847, any
11 amendments or any similar legislation: First, is there
12 agreement that the current PIL core and corollary standards
13 should be used to design preparation and professional
14 development programs for principals and superintendents? I
15 believe the answer increasingly is yes, but you need to
16 hear from others about whether something different or
17 additional is needed.
18 Two, if there is consensus about these PIL
19 standards or something that might represent an amended
20 form, they'd be used to frame preparation and professional
21 development programs for principals and superintendents,
22 should these standards be explicitly articulated in new
23 statutory language, or will you leave it to the State Board
24 of Education to put the language into law?
25 Obviously, House Bill 847 uses the latter 61
1 approach and gives no certainty about what standards will
2 be adopted through regulations by the current or some
3 future State Board of Education.
4 Three, will the legislature mandate or require
5 or permit the State Board of Education to mandate that all
6 of these PIL standards be included in every program that is
7 eligible to provide preparation for future principals and
8 superintendents?
9 We're talking about these preparation programs
10 that, for the most part, regard colleges and universities,
11 not professional development. If not, in this legislation,
12 what will be done to assure or encourage that the PIL
13 standards are voluntarily designed into all preparation
14 programs throughout the Commonwealth? The current
15 legislation is silent on this issue.
16 Four, who will be eligible to offer professional
17 development programs and activities for principals and
18 superintendents and under what circumstances?
19 Five, does the legislature intend that only
20 professional development programs that are designed and
21 acknowledged to serve one or more of these PIL standards be
22 eligible to act as an Act 48 program for principals and
23 superintendents? The proposed legislation seems to impose
24 this requirement for relevancy to these PIL standards only
25 upon professional development programs for new 62
1 administrators.
2 Will the legislature require every new principal
3 or superintendent, including those who may already hold a
4 leadership credential, but they don't necessarily hold a
5 leadership position, to complete a program of professional
6 development designed to meet all or some of these PIL
7 standards? The current legislation seems to exempt those
8 who have a leadership credential already, although they may
9 not currently hold a leadership position.
10 Seven, will any kind of special support be
11 provided for new principals or new superintendents such as
12 the support envisioned in the current requirements for an
13 induction program for new teachers? We spoke to this issue
14 of a, at least a one-year induction program for new
15 principals in the report that I mentioned. The legislation
16 is silent on this issue.
17 Eight, will the legislature require that the
18 Department of Education provide programs that will enable a
19 principal or superintendent to meet the professional
20 development requirements linked to these PIL standards
21 without cost to the educator or his or her employer? Such
22 a mandate for the Department is included in statute for
23 other Act 48 requirements. The legislation currently is
24 silent on this issue.
25 Number nine, once a principal or superintendent 63
1 has completed a program or programs designed to meet all of
2 the standards of the PIL program, will the educator be able
3 to satisfy continuing Act 48 requirements by participating
4 in other professional development programs and activities?
5 The legislation does not seem to prescribe the
6 professional development activities that will enable the
7 educator to meet these Act 48 requirements after acquiring
8 the proposed Administrator II certificate, and therefore
9 does not necessarily assure relevancy to the PIL standards
10 as a professional goes through subsequent Act 48 programs.
11 I am sure that there are more questions that can
12 be reasonably applied to this issue of preparation and
13 professional development for school leaders. But in the
14 end, you need to decide; one, are these the right issues
15 and most appropriate questions; two, when you determine the
16 key issues, will you provide answers in the statute, or do
17 you want to direct the State Board to provide the answers
18 through regulations?
19 And I also add a third bullet that occurred to
20 me, and I ought to mention because it occurred to me as I
21 was sitting here. Will you ask the question, whatever you
22 craft, is this in the best interest of students? Let me
23 also take a moment to respond to the question about impact
24 on recruiting because we address this issue in our EPLC
25 report on school leadership. 64
1 I interpret the PIL program -- I have a very
2 positive response to the PIL program in terms of its
3 content. I interpret it as adding quality and relevancy,
4 not necessarily more quantity in terms of the requirements
5 for principals and superintendents. It focuses on quality
6 and relevancy and rigor perhaps. I don't think that those
7 are the kinds of things that persuade folks from becoming
8 principals and superintendents.
9 If you really want to take a look at why some
10 folks choose not to become superintendents in this state,
11 you might take a look at another report that we did on K-12
12 governance that suggested that the legislature changed the
13 law to clarify the role of superintendents in this
14 Commonwealth and clarify that we ought to treat
15 superintendents, if we want to hold them accountable for
16 what's going on in their district, we ought to treat them
17 as a CEO and give them more authority in terms of who is
18 hired to be part of their team rather than saddling them
19 with folks who a school board may like, but who may not
20 necessarily be deemed appropriate by the superintendent
21 himself or herself.
22 There are lots of other issues, I am suggesting,
23 that are more likely to dissuade an individual from taking
24 on these leadership positions of principal or
25 superintendent in this era of growing accountability and 65
1 growing proposals for more accountability for these
2 individuals in their positions than anything that might
3 have to do with a more rigorous and more relevant
4 professional development requirement.
5 Let me just also finally comment on House Bill
6 842, Representative Grucela's legislation, which I think is
7 important legislation. I would add simply, as the
8 Secretary and others have already mentioned, this
9 legislation is in the best interest of students. That's
10 the reason to do it.
11 I might talk about other views in terms of
12 teachers and educators and the school district itself, but
13 the bottom line is it's in the best interest of students
14 not to disrupt the continuity of the professional who's
15 working with that group of students in a classroom during
16 the course of the year. We provide far too many
17 interruptions already. We ought to eliminate the prospect
18 of this one that is present because of this quirk in the
19 current Act 48.
20 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
21 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Thank you, Ron.
22 Are there any questions?
23 REPRESENTATIVE PALLONE: I just have kind of a
24 question comment, I guess. I'm looking at the three
25 testimonies that have come through so far, and, of course, 66
1 we're inundated again with acronyms. We have PIL, NISL and
2 NCEE; we have Grow and the -- you know, blah, blah, blah,
3 which we're famous or fabulous, I guess, at coming up with
4 acronyms and buzz words.
5 And I think Representative Grucela alluded to
6 that with the different methodologies that have come
7 through in the last several decades with the educational
8 program. And I come from a, kind of a different kind of a
9 background, I guess, not fully educated oriented.
10 I am certainly educated formally, but not as an
11 educator. And I understand that the primary function of
12 private and public education is to teach children and to
13 provide the best learning opportunities as possible.
14 But I think once you leave the classroom, and
15 even with the instructors in the classroom to some degree,
16 we are no longer just providing education; the
17 socioeconomic impact of the community, the counseling
18 services far beyond I think whatever a traditional school
19 guidance counselor was ever envisioned to provide, whether
20 it be family crisis or economic crisis or emotional crisis,
21 whatever.
22 I think just the other day, there was a tragedy
23 in one of the high schools, and when they came back to
24 school on Monday, there was going to be counselors
25 available to deal with a shooting and/or death of a 67
1 student. It seems the times have changed. I think that,
2 at the administrator level even, has changed even more, and
3 maybe not at the principal level because they're not as
4 accountable in terms of managing the education program in a
5 particular school.
6 But when you look at principals on up and the
7 general administration, I think they become more than just
8 instructors or education is the single focus, and we're
9 talking more about business oriented. And what I don't see
10 as part of the PIL, to use your acronyms, I don't see any
11 component of that that deals with what I'm going to say
12 business management, MBA-type training.
13 It seems to me that it's focused purely
14 academic, which I understand that that's the focus of our
15 educational institutions; but at the same time, these
16 principals are going to be dealing with issues that could
17 be as simple as scheduling, can be certainly more
18 complicated with socioeconomic issues of the community,
19 certainly issues related to trauma and tragedy that may
20 have happened or success.
21 You know, when the school district, one of their
22 teams wins a statewide tournament or something, that's
23 certainly something that has to be dealt with at the
24 principal level and, you know, what color shoes you're
25 going to wear or whatever, your clothing, whether or not 68
1 there's uniforms.
2 There's just a lot of issues that are not
3 reading, writing, arithmetic, Spanish and English or
4 whatever. Is there any consideration or does any of your
5 reports address any of that MBA-type training for our
6 administrative staff in these schools because it's more
7 than just teaching pure education?
8 MR. COWELL: Well, I think you're absolutely
9 right, first of all, and I think that, as you make the case
10 that you do, it is, in itself, a component argument in
11 favor of the PIL program and its component standards.
12 In terms of our own work with EPLC -- again, if
13 you have a chance to look a little bit more deeply at that
14 report on leadership as well as the report that we did
15 three or four years ago on teacher qualities applied in
16 Pennsylvania, you might find some response to, or certainly
17 acknowledgement, and I think response also to some of the
18 issues that you raised.
19 But I'm just looking at the list that I have in
20 my testimony trying to correlate it to some of the points
21 that you made. This list of PIL standards -- we put out a
22 report slightly different, but it lines up very closely to
23 the PIL standards. When you talk about managing resources
24 effectively, those are all kinds of resources.
25 Those are dollar resources; those are your 69
1 personnel resources, a variety of resources that a
2 principal or a superintendent may have available. You
3 speak about this larger context, this very complicated
4 world in which kids live and schools live and educators
5 operate, certainly the next to the last one about
6 advocating for public ed and kids in a larger political,
7 social, economic, etcetera, context.
8 I did have a chance to serve on the work group
9 that was convened by Stinson Stroup with the Pennsylvania
10 Association of School Administrators at the request of the
11 Department of Education, and I sat through most of the
12 meetings.
13 I missed a couple, but I sat through most of
14 them. And we talked all of the things that you've
15 discussed about complicated work load and life of a school
16 administrator, and practically anybody in the education,
17 public education business these days was part of the
18 conversation there.
19 I think they did a pretty good job of reducing
20 all of that complicated stuff to a handful of standards
21 that you could really get your arms around. But I think
22 there is room under the rubric that's provided, and there's
23 certainly room within the curriculum that's provided
24 through the various PIL programs to cover the kinds of
25 topics. 70
1 It's not a master's, or it's not an MBA in terms
2 of business, but it is a pretty good effort at a, through a
3 relatively modest requirement the legislature imposes on
4 educators, in this case, principals and superintendents,
5 relatively modest requirement covering some pretty meaty
6 significant subjects.
7 REPRESENTATIVE PALLONE: And just one last
8 query, and maybe you misspoke or I misheard, one or the
9 other. And if I misheard, I'm sorry. But I think you said
10 the Department of Education and the way that the law will
11 be implemented, did you mean in terms of the regulations
12 that the Department's going to develop, or is it absolutely
13 defined and described within the proposed legislation in
14 terms of what has to be done under this PIL program?
15 MR. COWELL: Well, I may have misspoke, and I'm
16 not sure, but I was speaking about law, whether it's
17 statutory or regulatory law.
18 REPRESENTATIVE PALLONE: Okay.
19 MR. COWELL: So it could be either, and I
20 recognize, as I said in here a couple of times, that one of
21 the fundamental questions you all have to deal with is how
22 descriptive you want to be, how detailed you will be in the
23 legislation with the statute and to what extent you rely on
24 the State Board of Education to, with delegated authority,
25 delegated regulatory authority, fulfill your wishes in more 71
1 detail through their own work.
2 And that's always one of the most important
3 challenges this committee and the legislature has. If you
4 just read the legislation on its face right now -- we've
5 had a wonderful conversation about PIL, and, you know, I
6 could come close to being a cheerleader for PIL, but you
7 read the legislation on its face, and I don't know for sure
8 what will come of it.
9 You're relying an awful lot on cheerleading, and
10 you're relying an awful lot on the good intentions of this
11 State Board and future State Boards. So that's always one
12 of the challenges. We try to be more prescriptive, and
13 it's more difficult to change the law, the statutory law.
14 REPRESENTATIVE PALLONE: It's certainly not easy
15 to change the regulations either.
16 MR. COWELL: Well --
17 REPRESENTATIVE PALLONE: I stay cautiously
18 optimistic that whatever regulatory laws get implemented
19 will somewhat comply with, at least what our intent is, to
20 try to create a better environment for administrators.
21 Thank you for your thoughts in that regard.
22 MR. COWELL: But if I might just respond to that
23 last question. I sat on that side of the table for 24
24 years. Even when my best friends might have been running
25 the Department of Education or the State Board of 72
1 Education, you don't know who's going to be in charge
2 tomorrow, and you don't know what the attitude will be or
3 the temperament will be or the disposition will be.
4 That's just a reminder that you've got a little
5 bit more control over the situation when you put it into
6 statute. Certainly, we have the regulatory review process
7 in this state, and that's always a tool that's available to
8 you as well.
9 But if we're talking about a set of standards or
10 principles, if you will, that apply to professional
11 development and if you think that will apply to preparation
12 programs, it's probably a fairly strong argument to be made
13 to consider putting some of those principles into the
14 statute rather than just relying on regulations.
15 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Representative Wheatley?
16 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: Actually,
17 Mr. Chairman, I think Ron answered my question like he
18 normally does before I can ask it. I just wanted to
19 highlight one of the parts of what you said and I think is
20 critical.
21 When Representative Pallone mentioned the
22 business aspects to running schools, you mentioned earlier
23 about the report you did several years back that talked
24 about the governance of K through 12 and kind of
25 unhandicapping principals; if we're going to hold them 73
1 accountable, we should treat them in a certain fashion.
2 I'm curious, and I know it's not addressing this
3 qualification issue, but I'm curious to understand more
4 about what you think are the necessary tools we need to
5 equip our superintendents as well as our principals in
6 order to get to that thing that you call a student
7 achievement or what's good for students because unlike some
8 of what I heard today, I think we put too much on teachers
9 and school systems because we fail to connect the social
10 pieces that we need to, so we dump it all on our schools to
11 address it.
12 And so from a philosophical perspective, I don't
13 think it is the role and responsibility of our schools to
14 do some of the things that they have done, but they've had
15 to do them because nowhere else in society we have
16 connected the dots to support it.
17 So taking that aside, my philosophical
18 difference, what you said about the managers and the CEOs
19 of the building and what you said about the governance
20 structure, can you just briefly talk about that and what
21 you think the next steps should be as it relates to those
22 aspects?
23 MR. COWELL: Sure. Specifically, our report on
24 governance spoke to the issue of superintendents and school
25 boards, and there are two or three things that come to mind 74
1 that are included in that report as recommendations; one,
2 we're talking about professional development today. The
3 folks who are not required to engage in any professional
4 development are school board members.
5 We don't require orientation, nor do we require
6 professional development for school board members. And
7 while these are voluntary positions, they are some of the
8 most powerful, most important positions in the Commonwealth
9 as trustees for the education system and as the billers for
10 the $20 billion of taxpayer money annually.
11 We would encourage you to take a look at
12 requiring a modest orientation program and a modest
13 professional development program for all school board
14 members. Secondly, in terms of the authority of
15 superintendents to hire their team, the current law says
16 that school board will hire employees, hire and fire
17 employees. It doesn't speak to the authority of
18 superintendents on hiring and firing.
19 If we're serious about superintendents being
20 CEOs and holding them accountable ultimately for the
21 performance of the district, we ought to give them the
22 authority to hire and fire. What we suggested in the
23 report was that the Board will only hire or fire upon the
24 recommendation of the superintendent.
25 Some folks will go even farther and say that it 75
1 ought to be the responsibility of the CEO to do the hiring
2 and firing rather than the responsibility of the school
3 board. And we also spoke also to the issue of other kinds
4 of relationship matters between the Board and the
5 superintendent.
6 And we made some modest suggestions that would
7 try to emphasize again the idea that this is a team of ten,
8 something that is stated in the current law, but not
9 actually supported by the rest of the law, so that this is
10 a team of ten. And particularly on the professional issue,
11 I want to go back to that.
12 Some of the best professional development can
13 occur when the superintendent and the school board, a
14 school board as an institution, are working together and
15 engaging in professional development together. I would
16 note just a minor correction. The report that we did there
17 on governance doesn't speak to the issue of principals.
18 That is spoken to in this current report on school
19 leadership.
20 And, again, some of the detail about the skills,
21 information or knowledge that superintendents as well as
22 principals need to have would be found in the middle of
23 this relatively short report. I would encourage folks to
24 take a look at it.
25 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: Thank you. 76
1 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
2 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Thank you, Representative.
3 Any other questions?
4 (No response.)
5 Thank you.
6 MR. COWELL: Thank you.
7 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Now, I'd like to call up
8 Joseph Acri, Brian Cashman and Deborah Weaver.
9 MR. ACRI: Good morning. I am Joseph Acri. I'm
10 the Assistant Executive Director for the Pennsylvania
11 Association of Elementary and Secondary School Principals.
12 I will keep my remarks very short in the interest of time
13 because, you know, school principals, when they start
14 getting towards lunchtime, they know that problems are
15 going to happen and they want to keep everything under
16 control.
17 I just want to make one comment concerning the
18 previous question about an MBA program. We, as an
19 association, are working with some colleges to bring that
20 program to practicality.
21 REPRESENTATIVE PALLONE: Just a point of
22 clarification, I didn't mean an actual MBA degree.
23 MR. ACRI: No, it's --
24 REPRESENTATIVE PALLONE: I meant an MBA like a
25 business-related course. 77
1 MR. ACRI: Representative, the components of the
2 program will be some of the same components that you would
3 get from an MBA program. And we recognize that that is
4 something that is overdue, and we are working with some
5 colleges in some states and some schools.
6 But as you can imagine, trying to bring all
7 those groups together and change that philosophy is sort of
8 like herding cats, but we've had a lot of progress. And it
9 won't be too long that we'd like to come back and address
10 this group and deal with that. With me today is Brain
11 Cashman, a secondary school principal.
12 And I'll get out of my chair so that she can sit
13 down and allow you to talk to Deb Weaver, an elementary
14 principal. And they will go over their remarks that you
15 got a copy of, and then we'll all be available for any
16 questions you'll have at the end. Thank you.
17 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Thank you.
18 MR. CASHMAN: Good morning.
19 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Good morning.
20 MR. CASHMAN: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen
21 of the committee. I'm Brian Cashman, Principal of
22 Susquehannock High School in the Southern York County
23 School District. I am the Immediate Past President of the
24 Pennsylvania Association of Elementary and Secondary School
25 Principals. 78
1 I wish to thank you for providing me the
2 opportunity to comment upon the proposals that have been
3 put forth by Representative Conklin relative to
4 certification for school principals.
5 It is my understanding that requirements put
6 forth in both the revisions of State Board Chapter 49.3,
7 Continuing Professional Education regulations and this
8 proposed legislation, can be met through the Pennsylvania
9 Inspired Leadership program, which is currently offered
10 through the various consortia of intermediate units with
11 the support of the Pennsylvania Department of Education.
12 Our association is very supportive of the
13 Pennsylvania Inspired Leadership program. We believe that
14 the programmatic requirements of PIL provide opportunities
15 for essential skill development for inexperienced and
16 experienced principals alike.
17 The three core standards included in the program
18 are critical to the success of our members in their efforts
19 to meet the challenges and requirements of No Child Left
20 Behind. The six corollary standards are especially
21 beneficial to more experienced school leaders.
22 We do, however, wish to raise some concerns.
23 Principal participation in the Inspired Leadership program
24 will result in the commitment of a substantial amount of
25 time that must be scheduled out of the school setting. 79
1 This time commitment is very significant for program
2 participants and impacts their ability to maintain
3 continuous leadership for their staff and students.
4 This increased time commitment is being required
5 of school leaders at the same moment in time when proposals
6 are set to go before the legislature that would abolish
7 tenure for principals and replace it with three-, four- or
8 five-year contracts. Such principal contracts would be
9 evaluated solely on the basis of student performance
10 results on the PSSA examination.
11 No provisions are suggested to allow
12 opportunities for principals to control the staffing,
13 budgetary or programmatic variables that are critical in
14 determining student success. We believe those legislative
15 proposals are a punitive action that will offset any
16 positive professional growth that will be generated as a
17 result of participation in the Inspired Leadership
18 curriculum.
19 In point of fact, we believe that the absence of
20 building leadership for twelve days during the school year
21 could conceivably reduce leadership activities and
22 temporarily depress student PSSA performance. The
23 elimination of a tenure track for school leaders causes the
24 professional development revisions to become punitive for
25 participants rather than positive as was intended. 80
1 The Principals Association believes the
2 unintended consequence of the combination of the two
3 newly-proposed requirements will be to greatly reduce the
4 already-diminished applicant pool for school leadership
5 positions. It is well known that the number and quality of
6 applications for school principal positions is
7 substantially lower than just a few short years ago.
8 This is happening at the same moment that public
9 school leaders are being asked to do more than ever before.
10 As I noted earlier in my remarks, the Pennsylvania
11 Association of Elementary and Secondary School Principals
12 finds much to be complemented in the proposed State Board
13 of Education revisions to Chapter 49 and the Inspired
14 Leadership program.
15 We also support the efforts of Representative
16 Conklin to codify the professional development requirements
17 in the School Code. We ask, however, that members of the
18 House of Representatives advocate for moving the revisions
19 forward in a nonpunitive manner that can produce
20 substantially-improved leadership skills for building
21 leaders and in a manner that, at the same time, will offer
22 encouragement for new professionals to join our ranks.
23 Thank you for allowing me to address you this
24 morning. I am open to any questions that you might wish to
25 ask. 81
1 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Thank you.
2 DR. WEAVER: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen
3 of the committee. I am Dr. Deborah Weaver, Principal at
4 Rheems Elementary School in the Elizabethtown Area School
5 District. I am a member of the Pennsylvania Association of
6 Elementary and Secondary School Principals, and I thank you
7 for allowing me to comment upon the proposals that have
8 been put forth by Representative Conklin relative to
9 certification for school principals.
10 As noted by Mr. Cashman, these proposals do have
11 some potentially negative impacts upon professional
12 administrators within the schools of the Commonwealth.
13 However, PAESSP supports opportunities for school
14 principals to improve their professional expertise. We do
15 have some implementation suggestions that can enable
16 principals to more fully benefit from their participation
17 in the PIL program.
18 First, because many professional administrators
19 are enrolled in university degree programs that they
20 believe will enhance their professional skills and careers,
21 the Pennsylvania Association of Elementary and Secondary
22 School Principals suggests that the legislation be revised
23 to allow the Pennsylvania Department of Education to grant
24 waivers to individuals who can document participation in a
25 graduate level program of study that includes the same 82
1 skills offerings as those contained in the Pennsylvania
2 Inspired Leadership program.
3 Secondly, time constraints are a significant
4 problem for practicing administrators. This is especially
5 true for principals working in their first administrative
6 position. PAESSP requests that the Pennsylvania Department
7 of Education offer some or all of the Inspired Leadership
8 development opportunities through on-line course offerings.
9 A cyber school offering of the PIL program
10 should include a chat room to allow professionals to pose
11 questions and give responses that could provide learning
12 opportunities through interactions between peers as well as
13 experienced professionals.
14 Thirdly, entry-level administrators are often
15 confronted by problems that cannot be anticipated by the
16 preparatory programs of study that are necessary for
17 administrative certification. To address that shortcoming,
18 PAESSP recommends that the Pennsylvania Department of
19 Education create a mentoring program to pair inexperienced
20 PIL participants with outstanding experienced school
21 leaders.
22 Lastly, PAESSP asks that sponsoring legislation
23 require that Inspired Leadership program be provided by the
24 Pennsylvania Department of Education at no cost either to
25 individuals or their employing school district. We request 83
1 that the professional development requirements not become
2 another unfunded mandate.
3 As I noted earlier, the Pennsylvania Association
4 of Elementary and Secondary School Principals does advocate
5 for improved opportunities for our members to improve their
6 professional skills. We believe that the Inspired
7 Leadership program is one such offering.
8 We hope that the Pennsylvania Legislature, in
9 cooperation with the State Board of Education, can provide
10 for supportive and enlightening growth opportunities.
11 Thank you for allowing me to address you this morning. I
12 am open to any questions that you might wish to ask.
13 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Thank you, Mr. Cashman, Dr.
14 Weaver, for your testimony.
15 Are there any questions from members of the
16 committee?
17 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: Thank you, Mr.
18 Chairman.
19 Mr. Cashman, just a couple quick ones. First of
20 all, in your testimony, you talk about the principal
21 contracts that will be evaluated on the basis of results of
22 the PSSA exam and that there's legislative -- I think
23 that's the Governor's idea. I mean, it's not my idea. I
24 would oppose that. I don't think -- I haven't seen that
25 proposed yet, but I would hope nobody in the legislature 84
1 would oppose that. I don't know -- that's not in this
2 bill.
3 MR. CASHMAN: No, it's not.
4 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: Okay.
5 MR. CASHMAN: But it is an item that the
6 Governor is putting forward at this time that we have very
7 much concern about.
8 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: You're not the lone
9 ranger. He's got a lot of things we're concerned about
10 with his ideas. And second, on my second page, you
11 testified that the absence of the building leadership for
12 12 days would reduce the activities and depress student
13 PSSA performance. Can you add how, why or how would that
14 depress the student performance?
15 MR. CASHMAN: Well, I think if you look at any
16 of the studies that have been done on good schools or
17 effective schools, you'll find that they have an effective
18 principal. And I think when a principal's out of the
19 building that many days, it has an impact on instructions
20 going on in the school and on the students' achievement.
21 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: Tushay. I agree 100
22 percent. You mention in here about this being somewhat
23 punitive in your opinion, but you've heard the Secretary
24 and the PSPA's testimony this morning.
25 Do you feel any better since you heard those 85
1 guys testify that this won't be as punitive as you feel
2 here? And just a second dovetail question, do you have any
3 ideas on how we can do this in a nonpunitive matter?
4 MR. CASHMAN: I think as it is currently
5 proposed, it is nonpunitive. What I'm concerned about,
6 again, is the Governor has an item or agenda item that
7 offers to, refers to putting principals on a contract and
8 tying their performance to the PSSA results and other
9 schools.
10 And I think that that piece becomes legislation,
11 and at this point, I don't believe it's even in the
12 committee anywhere. Then it becomes much more of a
13 punitive legislation. I think as it currently is, it's a
14 good thing.
15 I was involved back on the committee, in fact,
16 to help develop the PIL program with the Department of
17 Education, and so I think what we're proposing to train
18 principals to do are things that, are skills that they need
19 in order to help their students to achieve and do well in
20 school.
21 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: I'm also concerned,
22 after listening to Ron Cowell's testimony, that, if I
23 understood it correctly, the State Board would have some
24 kind of say here on making regulations. That concerns me.
25 I'm not sure -- you know, we ought to take a better look at 86
1 this legislation and make sure that they don't have any
2 input. But do you have any feeling about that?
3 MR. CASHMAN: I don't think I have an opinion
4 about that at this time.
5 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: I understand. Thank
6 you.
7 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
8 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Thank you.
9 Representative Kirkland?
10 REPRESENTATIVE KIRKLAND: Thank you,
11 Mr. Chairman.
12 Just very briefly. Representative Grucela asked
13 the question concerning the impression of student PSSA
14 performances, but let me just go a little further. Most
15 schools -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- have an assistant
16 to the principal, so if those principals are out of the
17 building, the assistants that they have trained and assist
18 them, works under them very closely and usually are most
19 capable of running the building.
20 MR. CASHMAN: I hope they would be, yes.
21 REPRESENTATIVE KIRKLAND: Would they both go out
22 at the same time when it comes to training and --
23 MR. CASHMAN: I don't know if that's fair. I
24 would hope we would have some say as to who goes when to
25 the training, but I'm not sure. 87
1 REPRESENTATIVE KIRKLAND: Thank you,
2 Mr. Chairman.
3 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Thank you, Representative
4 Kirkland.
5 Representative Wheatley?
6 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: One, first, I didn't
7 hear you make a comment on Representative Grucela's bill
8 one way or the another about the inactive teacher
9 certificates.
10 MR. CASHMAN: I think, you know, we would
11 support that legislation. It makes good sense, and I think
12 it's in the best interest of kids.
13 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Can you speak up just a
14 little bit? I think our reporter's having trouble hearing
15 you. You support it?
16 MR. CASHMAN: Yes.
17 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Thank you.
18 MR. CASHMAN: As I said, I think we support that
19 legislation. It makes good sense, and it's in the best
20 interest of children.
21 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: I just wanted to
22 promote his bill some more for him. Secondly, the question
23 around the training -- oh, I'm sorry -- the nonpunitive
24 part of this bill right now, but the prospects of it
25 becoming more punitive if the Governor's proposal of 88
1 attaching some type of contract pieces to the principal and
2 the performance of the student on their PSSA.
3 And earlier, I've been mentioning this, you
4 know, treating principals like managers and giving them the
5 tools. Do you have a comment as it relates to if you think
6 that would be a doable thing that you would take on a
7 responsibility, but giving you, empowering you with the
8 ability to take your team, so to speak?
9 MR. CASHMAN: I certainly think that needs to
10 happen if we're going to be held accountable of the
11 performance of our students and school.
12 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: And the final question
13 that I have goes to an earlier question I was asking about
14 what are the training skills requirement on you right now.
15 Like, what are the things -- who determines the skills and
16 the training necessary for you right now?
17 MR. CASHMAN: I think there's a couple ways that
18 that happens. One is advanced degrees, working towards as
19 administrators; second is Act 48 hours, which could be
20 really a number of things across the gamut of education.
21 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: And how much of what
22 you are responsible for, skill development now compared to
23 what the PIL that's suggesting are some skills and some
24 necessary things to help you enhance what you do, how
25 different are they? And, clearly, right now, you don't 89
1 have any concerns with what PIL is suggesting as you
2 mandate, so how much different are the two?
3 MR. CASHMAN: Well, I think now we have complete
4 economy as to what we decide to do in the way of staff
5 development for ourselves. PIL will sort of focus that
6 towards instruction, but I believe with the increasing
7 accountability that occurs -- No Child Left Behind, that
8 that's probably a good thing, being held responsible for
9 achievement of our students and more accountable and to
10 help us more on skills necessary to do.
11 DR. WEAVER: (Inaudible.)
12 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: Did you get that?
13 REPORTER: No, none of it. I can't hear her at
14 all.
15 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: I'm sorry. Could you
16 say that one more time?
17 DR. WEAVER: One of the components of the PIL
18 program is the data analysis, and I think that's a critical
19 skill for school principals to have. So this program does
20 provide that consistency for all schools.
21 REPRESENTATIVE WHEATLEY: Thank you.
22 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
23 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Are there any other
24 questions?
25 Representative O'Neill? 90
1 REPRESENTATIVE O'NEILL: Thank you for being
2 here with us today. I have one question for you and
3 another comment. Do the two of you, when you evaluate your
4 classroom teachers on their job performance and that sort
5 of thing, do you take into account the performance that the
6 kids are making on the PSSA tests?
7 MR. CASHMAN: No, we do not.
8 DR. WEAVER: Yes, I do.
9 REPRESENTATIVE O'NEILL: But then you don't
10 think, based on this testimony, the principal should be
11 held accountable based on the students' PSSAs?
12 MR. CASHMAN: I think there are so many
13 variables that go into student achievement that really we
14 have no control as administrators and/or as teachers, and I
15 think to tie our performance solely to the achievement of
16 our students is really unfair.
17 REPRESENTATIVE O'NEILL: I agree with you.
18 However, your association's saying it's not fair for a
19 principal to be held accountable based on PSSA tests, but
20 she just testified that she holds the teacher accountable
21 for that. I don't understand why she feels that.
22 DR. WEAVER: Although, I hold them accountable
23 as we're talking about professional development and what we
24 can do because my concern is student achievement obviously,
25 and so are the teachers. 91
1 So we're looking at that data saying, okay, how
2 can we help Johnny move to the next level, so that data
3 piece and scores become important to find out where we need
4 to go as far as instruction and staff development pieces,
5 but they're not held accountable as far as if their job was
6 in jeopardy.
7 MR. CASHMAN: I think the achievement levels of
8 our students does drive our staff development. I don't
9 know that we held performance totally to that.
10 DR. WEAVER: And I might add, depending on how
11 your students are grouped in the school -- and I'm talking
12 very basic logistics -- I don't know -- there would be a
13 lot of questions in my mind how you would hold
14 accountability, for instance, Teacher O'Neill versus 25
15 students because in a lot of our buildings, the student
16 grouping is based on student leads and available personnel
17 and what expertise they hold.
18 So children may be moving throughout the day
19 with different people for different reasons, and so it
20 would be very difficult to say one teacher with 25 children
21 when it seems to me, it's the team in the building that's
22 held accountable for the students with their group. It's
23 just another way of looking at it.
24 REPRESENTATIVE O'NEILL: And I have real issues
25 with the principal being held accountable because of 92
1 personal experience. You have high school kids taking the
2 PSSA tests that are required to take is, and life skills
3 students are required to take it.
4 You know, so the fact principals have to worry about
5 their job because you have a severely special needs child
6 who is taught how to do basic things, like laundry and tie
7 their shoes is not doing well on a test that honor students
8 have difficulty with maybe is just incredible. So I would
9 agree with that.
10 My last questions and comments -- or maybe you
11 can fill me in. Does your association lobby with the
12 Department of Education to look at the demands that are put
13 on a school principal, whether it's elementary, middle
14 school or high school?
15 And I know for a fact, I know a lot of teachers
16 and a lot of school districts across this state, principals
17 are spending less and less time in the hallway, in the
18 cafeteria, in the classrooms, out on the soccer field, that
19 sort of thing; and they're spending more and more time
20 behind closed doors in their office all day long.
21 And the problem, sometimes they don't even have
22 handle on what's going on in their school because of the
23 demand of that job either by us or the Department of
24 Education. Does your association lobby in any way to come
25 up with ideas or ways to release that demand on principals 93
1 so that they're out in the classrooms and out on the soccer
2 fields and be able to do the job they're hired to do, to be
3 honest with you?
4 MR. CASHMAN: We are very much concerned about
5 expanding the role of a principal. We continue to have
6 more and more things put on us each year. The most recent
7 thing is the Wellness Policy, which we are the food police
8 for our kids, which is one more. It just seems there's a
9 societal problem.
10 The easy answer is to have the schools fix it
11 somehow, so that expanded our role continuously over time.
12 I also think that people outside of education, I don't
13 think, fully understand the many hats that we wear today.
14 We're social workers; we're guidance counselors.
15 We have a lot of students with a lot of issues that come to
16 school every day that have nothing to do with education,
17 but have a whole lot to do with motivation and other issues
18 that are going on in their homes.
19 So we've become much more diverse in the things
20 that we have to deal with on a daily basis. I mean, you
21 can spend literally half a day with one student who just
22 had some kind of a crisis at home that day that has created
23 a whole bunch of other issues for us at school. And so it
24 is becoming increasingly difficult to get out in the
25 hallway, to be out on the soccer field or wherever it may 94
1 be that I should be.
2 I also think that you get to a point where
3 there's only so many hours in a day. As a high school
4 principal, I spend at least four nights a week that I'm
5 involved in some kind of meeting, athletic event or
6 whatever it may be. And I think what's happening is most
7 people aren't willing to do that.
8 REPRESENTATIVE O'NEILL: And I commend
9 Representative Wheatley for making that comment about, you
10 know, basically what he said was our schools are no longer
11 educational facilities. They're now social welfare
12 facilities. And it's become a huge, huge problem in this
13 society, and, of course, a lot of it's court mandated and
14 so forth.
15 I mean, I was in the classroom for 27 years, and
16 let me tell you, from my first year to 27th year, it was an
17 (?). And I speak to teachers now all the time, and they're
18 looking for 30 and out, not because they don't love
19 teaching; it's because they're not teachers anymore, and it
20 gets very frustrating. So I can only imagine what
21 principals feel as well. Thank you for your time. I
22 appreciate it.
23 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Representative Grucela?
24 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman
25 for giving me -- I wasn't going to ask a second question, 95
1 but, Dr. Weaver, you hit a nerve with me. And I want to
2 make sure I understand this because I wasn't sure your
3 rationale and inconsistent with what you originally said.
4 If I understood you in the beginning, you said
5 the principal and classroom teachers should be accountable
6 for the PSSA scores, or just the teacher should be or both?
7 DR. WEAVER: No, I didn't say that. I said we
8 look at the data, and it forms our instruction.
9 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: What's that mean? So
10 if I'm teaching -- here's my second question -- oh, yeah,
11 if I was teaching today, are you kidding me? My PSSA
12 scores would be the best; a, b, C, d. What I want to ask
13 you then is about grouping. You just started to talk about
14 grouping, so are you talking about homogenous grouping, or
15 are you talking about heterogenous grouping when you look
16 at PSSA scores because I went through both?
17 And, you know, there's a big difference between
18 being in front of a classroom of gifted students and a
19 classroom of guys that want to fight you first. There's a
20 big difference in that, and I know other members have heard
21 this story, and I hate to bore them with this. But I once
22 had a student who wanted to take the economics achievement
23 test, and I told him I didn't think I sufficiently prepared
24 him for it.
25 And I tried to talk him out of it. I said, 96
1 you're going to waste $75 or whatever it was at that time.
2 But he insisted on taking the test, and I said okay. I
3 gave him an economics college textbook. He took the test;
4 he got a 5, which is a perfect score. So I went to the
5 principal and asked for a merit day because -- you know,
6 and I had absolutely nothing to do with that kid's 5,
7 absolutely nothing.
8 But I'm concerned about using these test scores
9 to judge the teacher. You look at them, so tell me how you
10 look at them. And do you look at whether Rich Grucela is
11 teaching gifted and all his scores are great, or Rich
12 Grucela's teaching the guys that want to fight him every
13 day and his scores aren't so great or whether Rich
14 Grucela's a special ed teacher and his scores -- oh, by the
15 way, did you ever see the instructions on the PSSA exam?
16 DR. WEAVER: Yeah.
17 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: I had a student
18 yesterday who was a pretty good student, and he said to me,
19 you know, Mr. Grucela, I was okay, he said, but I worry
20 about my classmates, whether they could even follow the
21 instructions. So I'm a little concerned about that. Could
22 you comment on the grouping and how you use the score to
23 evaluate the teacher?
24 DR. WEAVER: I'll talk about student grouping
25 first, and I'll talk about my experience in our school. 97
1 Our students are grouped in various ways throughout the
2 school day. So there may be some homogenous grouping
3 involved, but there will also be heterogenous grouping.
4 There will be small groups and large groups.
5 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: Can I interrupt you for
6 one second? Would that be more than one teacher?
7 DR. WEAVER: It could be.
8 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: So you have to evaluate
9 each teacher according to what group or what time of the
10 day?
11 DR. WEAVER: There would be planning -- I'll
12 give you a concrete example. We have a block during the
13 day in our 3, 4 and 5, and teachers meet on a monthly
14 basis. And we pretest the children in each of the units
15 that we're about to teach to see what knowledge they
16 already have and what background. We do that so that our
17 advanced students will probably go through that unit at a
18 faster pace. Does that help?
19 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: Yeah, somewhat, but let
20 me ask this question: If I'm the teacher of the -- well,
21 how can I say this? If I'm the teacher of the group that
22 needed the support and got the support and the PSSA exam
23 showed that they didn't do well, it's my fault? Simple yes
24 or no.
25 DR. WEAVER: I will tell you, at least as we 98
1 implemented that, the students who needed the most support,
2 their scores are rising. So what we're doing is working.
3 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: What if my kids didn't
4 do well? Then what would be the recommendation to me? And
5 then you said, your students didn't do very well, so you
6 need to do a, b, c and d; and I turn around and said to
7 you, did you know that on my PRAXIS content test, I got a
8 hundred.
9 DR. WEAVER: I understand where you're going
10 with that, and I'm not saying that I agree that we hold
11 people's jobs accountable on PSSA scores as a one-shot
12 test. However, I do think -- and it's more data analyzing.
13 We're not just looking at PSSAs.
14 That's just one score set. We're constantly
15 assessing students on an ongoing basis with other tools
16 that are curriculum based, and so we are looking at those
17 assessments and taking a look to see where our kids are and
18 then define instruction based on that.
19 REPRESENTATIVE GRUCELA: Hallelujah. I wish
20 that we would do that in the Department because that's what
21 we've been trying to say for the longest time, that the
22 PSSA is a snapshot on a day's activity or a day's testing.
23 Actually it's becoming to be two, three, four days of
24 testing, which I understand is scheduled a week after the
25 SATs. And there ought to be a whole lot more in looking at 99
1 a school than a simple test, so thank you.
2 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
3 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Representative Mark
4 Longietti?
5 REPRESENTATIVE LONGIETTI: Dr. Weaver, I just
6 wanted to get just a little bit more detail -- I'll try to
7 ask easier questions -- a little bit more detail on your
8 third and fourth recommendations. The third one talked
9 about a mentoring program.
10 Would the Department have the sole discretion to
11 select that mentor, or how would that work in terms
12 of -- we heard a little testimony about removing people
13 from their buildings and the detriment of that, if you
14 could just describe a little bit more in detail how the
15 mentoring program would work.
16 And then the last one about the unfunded
17 mandate, how would that work in terms of would the
18 Department of Education be responsible providing that
19 training and, therefore, pick up the cost; or would there
20 be some kind of payment to the provider, or have you
21 thought about that at all?
22 DR. WEAVER: I'll take the mentoring question
23 first. I'm not real sure what the Department of Ed has in
24 mind. What I do know is that we certainly do support the
25 concept of a mentoring program. Just going back to my 100
1 experience 20 years ago coming into a principalship, you're
2 lucky to find a colleague that would take you under their
3 wing to help you.
4 I would think that most school districts have an
5 induction program for their administrators, but that may
6 not include a mentor to help them with just simple things,
7 like a background of the school procedures in the district
8 that you work would be helpful. So does that answer that,
9 at least --
10 REPRESENTATIVE LONGIETTI: To some degree, I
11 guess. I wasn't sure. When it talks about an outstanding
12 experienced school leader, is that person going to come
13 from another school district; are they going to come within
14 the school district, and whatever circumstances -- are
15 there going to be discussion outside their normal school
16 day, or is it going to be somebody that follows the person
17 around for periods of the school day; and, if so, how does
18 that impact their job?
19 DR. WEAVER: I'm not sure the details on that.
20 Brian, are you familiar?
21 MR. CASHMAN: I don't think we have details of
22 that nature right now. But I would say that, yes, we do
23 know from mentoring teachers that the proximity to that
24 teacher is important.
25 And I would say the same would be true for 101
1 administrators, that they would be someone either in the
2 building or someone in a neighboring school district or
3 someone relatively close so they could be involved in
4 face-to-face discussion about issues.
5 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: If there are no further
6 questions, thank you very much.
7 MR. CASHMAN: Thank you.
8 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: I want to call then Stinton
9 Stroup, Executive Director of Pennsylvania Association of
10 School Administrators.
11 MR. STROUP: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
12 Let me begin with an apology. I realized that
13 the copy you had was shorter than the copy that I have. I
14 must have transferred the copy to your staff that was not
15 complete of the written testimony, but I want to assure you
16 that I will not read my longer version, but I would like to
17 draw your attention to the beginning of that testimony and
18 then to the amendment that I have attached to the
19 testimony.
20 I represent the Pennsylvania Association of
21 School Administrators, primarily superintendents from
22 across the state and other system leaders in Pennsylvania
23 schools. For that reason, we have a vital interest in both
24 the preparations for administrators and their professional
25 development. 102
1 And for that reason, we applaud House Bill 847
2 for its recognition that superintendents and principals
3 need special training to successfully lead the systems and
4 buildings to which they are assigned. Specifically, PASA
5 supports the limitation on the waiver of qualifications for
6 superintendents and the designation for a new
7 Administrative II certificate for building level
8 administrators.
9 The heart of the new certificate, that is, the
10 Administrator II certificate, and of the bill, is an
11 induction period of three to five years, during which time
12 the new principal's performance is formally evaluated and
13 also during which time, he or she is required to engage in
14 an in-service training program that builds upon the
15 preservice academic program that resulted in the issuance
16 of the original Administrative I certificate.
17 House Bill 847, as you've heard from several of
18 the folks before me, leaves to the State Board of Education
19 all of the authority to define the in-service training
20 program, while much of what you have heard is about PIL.
21 There is no requirement for the PIL program as it is
22 currently conceived or designed to be the ultimate program
23 that would result from this legislation.
24 PASA believes that the parameters of the new
25 requirements should be spelled out in law and not left 103
1 entirely to regulations. We think this is important for
2 the legislature to identify these requirements for four
3 reasons; one, it protects future administrators from
4 open-ended requirements.
5 It will allow for the integration of new and
6 ongoing requirements for administrators continuing
7 professional development with the Department's existing
8 law, and you've also heard a great deal about Act 48. We
9 think the amendment was drafted with integrated new
10 induction program with Act 48.
11 It's also important for the legislation to focus
12 continuing professional development for all school leaders
13 on a common set of goals and standards and to apply the new
14 induction requirements, not just to new certificate
15 holders, but also to those who currently hold certificates
16 who may not have current administrative assignments.
17 Because we think these goals can be accomplished
18 only by legislation, we ask you to consider amending House
19 Bill 847 to include specific language defining the program
20 of continuing professional development for school and
21 system leaders.
22 And I've attached draft language to my testimony
23 that we think accomplishes that, and we'd be happy to work
24 with you through the administration with anybody else who
25 has an interest in this program in order to make sure that 104
1 the amendment does, indeed, accomplish these goals.
2 If you look at the amendment, you'll see
3 that new paragraph c is designed to apply the induction
4 requirement to all new administrative positions, not just
5 those new to an Administrative I certificate. Paragraph f,
6 in the middle of the amendment, would limit the number of
7 hours that would be required of a principal or assistant
8 principal to 36 hours per year.
9 You've heard before concern about the amount of
10 time we're asking particularly new principals to be out of
11 their buildings in order to receive this training. This is
12 designed to provide a specific limit to approximately one
13 week out of the office and out of the building each year.
14 The new section, 1205.5, is designed to
15 integrate the new requirement with Act 48 and to make sure
16 that administrators have the same opportunities that
17 teachers have for programs at no cost that meet the Act 48
18 requirements and specifically addressing the competencies
19 that we have identified for administrators, that they have
20 the opportunity at their cost to receive programs that meet
21 the standards from other providers and that all of the
22 programs for administrators meet Act 48 requirements be
23 standards-based.
24 These standards would apply to principals, to
25 assistant principals, to superintendents, to assistant 105
1 superintendents, to intermediate unit executive directors
2 and their assistants and area vocational technical
3 administrators and their assistants.
4 And finally, we have identified the standards
5 just as the Department has identified them for the PIL
6 program in the legislation, and you have those in Section
7 1217. I'll be happy to respond to your questions about the
8 amendment to the initial bill.
9 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Thank you.
10 Are there any questions?
11 MR. CARROLL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
12 Thank you for your testimony. One question. I
13 come from a perspective of a father of three elementary-age
14 children. If you could look into a crystal ball and see
15 that PSSA scores didn't improve after this was implemented,
16 would you still support it because of the affect it might
17 have on the students and the administrators?
18 MR. STINTON: Yes, I think I would. I think the
19 PSSA is just one measure of school success and the
20 students' success, and one of the things we need to do is
21 broaden our measures of success and create different
22 opportunities for students in school success.
23 And I think these standards are broad enough to
24 encompass a lot of those other aspects of success, not just
25 performance on basically two subjects for eight grades. 106
1 REPRESENTATIVE CARROLL: Thank you.
2 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: No questions?
3 (No response.)
4 Thank you very much.
5 MR. STINTON: Thank you.
6 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: I'd like to now call Pat
7 Crawford, Kathy Johnson and Judy Baumgardner.
8 MR. CRAWFORD: I'll go ahead and start. My
9 name's Pat Crawford, and I'm Superintendent of the Bedford
10 Area School District. I do not have a prepared written
11 statement for you, but let me give you a little bit of
12 background on why I'm here and maybe why I've been asked to
13 be here.
14 I have over 35 years in education, and I was
15 thinking as the legislators were talking this morning. And
16 I've spent time in the classroom in the elementary and the
17 secondary, been a coach and an athletic director, assistant
18 principal, a principal and a superintendent in those 35
19 years. And my, has it changed over the years. Also, I'm
20 the Executive Director of the Pennsylvania Leadership
21 Development Center, PLDC, another acronym, by the way.
22 And that's been in existence since 1996. The
23 PLDC was set up to provide professional leadership for
24 superintendents and acting superintendents and those folks
25 that wanted to be superintendents. Back in 1996 when we 107
1 developed that program, there was little available to us in
2 terms for professional development for superintendents and
3 central office folks.
4 That program has been supported by the
5 Department of Education over the years. It's a joint
6 project between PASA, the Pennsylvania Association of
7 School Administrators, the Penn State Study Council and
8 Duquesne University. PLBC has been active and a supporter
9 of the Pennsylvania Inspired Leadership initiative.
10 We have been part of that original work group.
11 I was personally part of the original work group. I've
12 been involved with helping formulate standards, helping to
13 develop the rubrics, creating the regional centers across
14 the state. I've been involved in kind of forming and
15 putting the curriculum together.
16 It's been quite a process over the past 18
17 months or two years to make that happen. I've also been
18 able to see the results of that. I've presented to the
19 support group of administrators that's currently involved.
20 I've observed watching them grow in their sessions. I've
21 talked to people that are involved.
22 We have principals that are involved in the
23 group fortunately, and I can see the value in having
24 professional development for educators and education
25 leaders in Pennsylvania. I solely -- I really support the 108
1 initiative of the Secretary of Education and the Department
2 of Education in putting this together and making it happen,
3 moving it forward.
4 I think that when we talk about professional
5 development, here's what we really need to remember: First
6 of all, it has to have personal value for the participant,
7 what I'm going to get out of it; what am I going to learn.
8 Secondly, there has to be an opportunity to take what we
9 learn and use it the next day or Monday or when you go
10 back; how can we embed that into the total process.
11 And, third, there's strength in this whole
12 concept of mentoring work with others and networking and
13 developing alliances in the job that we do because it is
14 about the work. I've met literally hundreds of educational
15 leaders across the state.
16 I had the great privilege as being recognized as
17 the superintendent of the year this year nationally, and I
18 can tell you that these folks are working and are working
19 very hard at creating first-class 21st century students.
20 PSSA is a part of that. It's one indicator of
21 success; it's not the total indicator. What we know is
22 what is important for a student to know to be able to do
23 and be like when you graduate is very important. So as we
24 continue our work in creating professional development
25 opportunities in the state, we keep all those ideas in 109
1 mind, and we rely certainly on research best practices.
2 We rely certainly on the direction and guidance
3 of the legislators and the Board of Education and
4 Department of Education, but most importantly, the strength
5 of the program comes from the experiences of the people
6 that's involved and how they grow and develop from that.
7 Thank you.
8 MS. BAUMGARDNER: Hi. I'm Judy Baumgardner from
9 Susquehanna Township, and as always, thanks for having me.
10 I'm honored to be here to have this opportunity. I was
11 sitting in the back since the beginning today. I got here
12 at 9:00, and I felt like a kid in a classroom. I just
13 wanted to participate the whole time.
14 But I've been in education for 22 years now, and
15 like him, I have done everything; athletic director,
16 assistant principal, math teacher in junior high, so on and
17 so forth. And I am in my first year as head principal at
18 Susquehanna Township High School, and I am a participant in
19 the Grow program through the Lincoln IU in Hanover. How I
20 got involved -- and I know you don't want a long story.
21 My superintendent came strolling down the hall
22 one summer day last year, hands in his pocket. We never
23 get to stroll during the school year. And he said, I think
24 you should get involved in this. Now, I'm making a
25 transition just thinking about getting through those first 110
1 365 days, getting through that one cycle of everything.
2 I said, yeah, he won't remember. He came back a
3 couple weeks ago, hands in his pocket. He goes, you're
4 getting the application on your e-mail, and I want you to
5 get involved. So I signed up, and I'll be honest; I went
6 in kicking and screaming a little bit, but I didn't let him
7 know that.
8 And it's amazing because many of the things you
9 go in kicking and streaming end up being some of the most
10 worthwhile things you come out of. The secretary rolled
11 down the hall one day, and she had this big package. And I
12 opened up the package. And I still get excited about
13 opening baseball bats and textbooks still after 22 years.
14 And in it were a bunch of books, and then there
15 was a pretty significant reading assignment due in two
16 weeks when I would go to my first program. So that was how
17 it all got started for me. The Grow people have done a
18 wonderful job at picking 12 dates over 10 months.
19 Four of those dates don't even fall within the
20 school year. They've done a really nice job of not putting
21 two dates near the beginning of the school year or near at
22 the end of the school year.
23 They've done a real good job selecting these
24 dates. Several years ago when I was teaching at the Lower
25 Dauphin District, I went to an AP Statistics camp. It was 111
1 one of the most worthwhile things I did. My principal
2 called it the AP Statistic boot camp. And I went and I
3 came out of there, and it was more valuable for my kids
4 than many of the things I had done in my university work.
5 The same thing has been I've found with Grow. I
6 can only tell you from my perspective as a first-year
7 principal and a participant, it has been very worthwhile.
8 I'm very honored that my district -- that the state has
9 picked up the tab, so I take that very seriously. When
10 somebody's investing money in me and also my school
11 district, I take that program very seriously.
12 The program is very encompassing. It started
13 off with Tom Friedman's, The World Is Flat, and if you have
14 not read that book, as politicians in an ever-changing
15 society, I would highly recommend it. It has changed my
16 perspective in just the last month. It has created a sense
17 of urgency that we have for our kids. And let's face it;
18 the way we learned when we grew up is different than the
19 way we have to teach things nowadays.
20 The Grow program has allowed me to see that and
21 start to develop that global vision for my school and my
22 kids. We've done a lot of interactive things. We've done
23 online work, case studies, discussions. We read a lot of
24 books. Howard Schultz's book from Starbucks we had to
25 read. 112
1 It's Pour Your Heart Into It, a great book. We
2 had to read two chapters. I read the whole thing because
3 it tied so much into the leadership. We keep hearing about
4 the manager part of the school, but it's tied so much into
5 the leadership part of what I have to do as well.
6 So they've tried to really balance those things.
7 I heard a couple people mention Act 48 requirements. It
8 is -- it's good for Act 48. It's not just basket weaving
9 or whatever. It's valuable Act 48 credits. And I
10 think -- I said to Sharon out there, I think I'm getting,
11 like, 90 to 100 of my Act 48 hours within just this one
12 year in addition to all the other things I attend at the IU
13 and all those things.
14 So the Act 48 credits are worthwhile credits.
15 The program itself is very future focused. You know, when
16 we grew up, they say we're digital immigrants. Our kids
17 nowadays are digital mavens. They've grown up with the
18 technology. It's unbelievable.
19 We've dropped some courses in my high school
20 just because the kids come to the high school with that
21 knowledge. So the Grow program is future focused. It's
22 very student centered. It takes away a lot, not a lot from
23 the teacher, but it's centered on what's best for kids
24 right now.
25 It's standards driven, and it's -- of course, as 113
1 a former math teacher, I love the fact that it's data
2 informed. And I'm learning a lot to sit down and look at
3 that and what's best for my kids. Life is changing
4 rapidly, and we have to understand the whole picture and
5 the whole child.
6 This program has given me an excellent
7 opportunity to network with other principals while I'm in
8 the cohort. I'm networking with secondary principals as
9 well as elementary principals. I really feel like we're a
10 part of a team. It's a lot of inspirational stuff. I like
11 that word stuff.
12 It's a plethora of materials and resources for
13 me. Again, it's no cost to my district. It takes a lot of
14 the best practices, not only from education, but from
15 business and military as well. And I think the most
16 important thing is it's really allowed me to reflect and
17 think about the vision in my building and where I need to
18 take Susquehanna Township High School as its leader, slash,
19 manager over the next couple of years.
20 Life is a journey; it's not a destination, and
21 so is learning. And it's this ongoing process, and, again,
22 Grow has really opened my eyes. I think just as a
23 first-year principal, it's taught me a lot. I mean, we
24 need to think about things in the 21st century as opposed
25 to the 20th century. Thank you. 114
1 MS. JOHNSON: Hi. My name is Kathy Johnson,
2 and, like my colleagues, I'd like to thank you for inviting
3 me to come and talk to you today about the PIL program. I
4 was involved in the support program -- the support group, I
5 guess, for principals, and I would echo some of the things
6 Judy said. But also I'm principal at a middle school.
7 It's a 5 through 8 middle school with about 640 students.
8 And I've been there for nine years, first, as
9 the assistant with no principal, kind of an acting role,
10 and then changed to be the principal. And I say that only
11 because I had no assistant in the last eight years, and
12 only this year, a very wonderful superintendent and school
13 board recognized it was difficult for one person to do all
14 of those roles single-handedly.
15 I was also getting tired as I listened to our
16 roles as principals play out this morning and all the
17 things we are responsible for, and it is absolutely true
18 that there's a lot on our plate. And the choosing to do
19 this job isn't a dollars and cents thing as much as it is a
20 calling or passion of what we want to see the progress in
21 education.
22 I think that some of the discussion also
23 prompted some things, and you'll notice I don't have
24 anything in writing. We were told not to do that, to speak
25 from the heart, which is what I'm pretty good at doing. 115
1 I was listening to the differences between the
2 practical aspect of schooling and the Act 48 and the things
3 you really have to do as a principal, and I kind of can
4 sort out, from my own experience, the undergraduate work
5 that I had as a teacher. I was a teacher for 17 years, so
6 I come to the principalship with a lot of knowledge about
7 students, learning strategies and all those kinds of
8 things.
9 And it sounds like Judy had a similar route in
10 terms of how many years she spent in the classroom, which
11 is very valuable. I was nudged, if you will, into the
12 administration role. I wasn't choosing for myself
13 necessarily, but certainly did what I needed to do to get
14 there with some wisdom of some very close friends and
15 mentors.
16 The undergrad work that I did to get my
17 certification, or the graduate work to get my certification
18 was valuable. It gave me the managerial side; it really
19 did, a lot of information about school law and budgets and
20 the things you need to do to run a school as a manager. It
21 was very, very knowledgable, shall we say, as what you do
22 as a school leader.
23 Other than a lot of philosophical classes are
24 classes that really tell you kind of the theory of
25 leadership. And the millions and millions of books that 116
1 were written about it, it really wasn't any substance to
2 how do you become a school leader when it comes to
3 education, not just the manager of a school; so the
4 background that I got from my graduate work, not only to
5 get my certificate, but after that.
6 I got my master's at 45, and now I'm enrolled in
7 a doctorate program. The course work that we do at
8 colleges and universities is outstanding. I'm not going to
9 take anything away from that, but it's a very different
10 slant. The thing that I see the most different is that
11 they are philosophical-based; one is practical-based.
12 The practicality comes in knowing the stuff you
13 need to know, but the application comes through the seat of
14 your pants when you're in a position. The PIL program has
15 added that practical piece. It really is hands-on. It's
16 taught by practitioners who have been there, done that, and
17 they really are inspired leaders themselves in order to
18 help you know where you have to go.
19 I had a wonderful experience with the program.
20 The days away from my building, it was like sharpening the
21 saw. If you try to cut down a lot of trees with a dull
22 saw, it's not going to get you anywhere. But the time out
23 of my billing was very well spent, not only what I was
24 learning, but also in the networking that I had with other
25 people to be able to increase and enhance my own skills as 117
1 a leader, if you will, in my school.
2 The other thing that I believe is very important
3 is that people talk a lot about content and what needs to
4 be there. And certainly the strategic planning is an
5 important goal that the PIL program addresses is key. How
6 you do that, however, the biggest thing, I think from my
7 experience in it, is it's very contextural to your school.
8 Sitting in a room with 28 other principals who
9 are looking at the same standards and coming up with a
10 project on how we can demonstrate our skills and really
11 move our schools forward, they vary. They were so vast in
12 what we choose to do because of the context of the school
13 and where we needed to go.
14 I don't think -- you have to look at where you
15 want to be. But each one of us, in whatever school
16 district we're in, whatever program we're involved in,
17 needs to know where we are now and how to get from here to
18 there.
19 And the Pennsylvania Inspired Leadership program
20 has really plugged that void up to this point in education
21 or ACT 48 training, if you will; continuing education, what
22 it is you need to do that. And not only the information,
23 the rigor -- the books by themselves are wonderful.
24 I have a colleague who was not able to
25 participate. She asked to -- opposite of Judy's 118
1 experience -- asked to participate. Her superintendent
2 said, no, I won't sign the papers; I don't want you out of
3 the building that long. She lost out. I shared with her
4 the books, and although she's reading the books, she's not
5 getting the networking piece.
6 She's not getting the ongoing regular
7 communication, so there's a loss there. I also have a
8 colleague in the program who came to the support program
9 much like Judy, kicking and screaming, and thinking
10 probably for the whole first half of the day what he could
11 be or should be doing at home or back at the school.
12 The closing the ceremony we just had a couple
13 weeks ago, and I asked him, how are you feeling now about
14 it. He said, you know what; this is really what I needed,
15 and I'm glad somebody kicked my butt to get me here because
16 it really has provided a void.
17 Colleges give us the past and a little bit of
18 the present skills. I believe the Pennsylvania Inspired
19 Leadership program has given me the now and the future
20 skills to move us where we need to go.
21 Thank you.
22 MS. BAUMGARDNER: I'd like to -- your mind's
23 going constantly when you're sitting here. One of the
24 gentleman had addressed about being out of the building,
25 and I think Kathy alluded to that. 119
1 We want to develop assistant principals to step
2 into these principal roles, and one of the things we have
3 to do is once in a while walk away from the building and
4 empower them. Am I a phone call away, absolutely. During
5 breaks, do we all run out and check our e-mails and our
6 voice mails, absolutely. But it is empowering them.
7 And the other thing is, the project that I'm
8 working on might be totally different than the project
9 Kathy's worked on. I'm in an ever-growing high minority
10 district. It's very different, if you're familiar with
11 Susquehanna Township and our demographics, and we're
12 dealing with achievement gap issues.
13 So I've been able to focus some of my roles this
14 year on safety-net issues to help some of my bottom kids
15 and not cut them off at the knees so we're not cutting off
16 their college choices of their post secondary choices.
17 Kathy's issues might be totally different. And that's, I
18 think, one of the beauties of the program.
19 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Thank you.
20 Are there questions?
21 (No response.)
22 Thank you very much.
23 MS. BAUMGARDNER: Thank you.
24 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: We come then to our final
25 presenter, Bob Hughes, the National Institute for School 120
1 Leadership.
2 MR. HUGHES: Thank you.
3 Chairman Roebuck and members of the House
4 Education Committee, I can probably cut this to 30 seconds
5 after that testimony that we just had. By the way, I've
6 never met any of you before. Let me just make a couple
7 remarks, a little about the origin of NISL.
8 It really started in 1999 when it began then the
9 question of where's the bang for the buck in the kinds of
10 philosophic donations and the contributions to American
11 public education, and we weren't seeing it there. The
12 supposition was that it was leadership, where you had great
13 leadership and great schools.
14 You had good leaders; you had good schools, and
15 where you didn't get that kind of leadership, you really
16 didn't get the return that you needed. So they asked folks
17 to go out and take a look at what was going on in the
18 schools of America, who was going out in the business
19 world, in the military and so forth. The long and short of
20 that ended up in a book that was published in the fall of
21 2001 by the title of Principal Challenge.
22 And what we found in there was that, in the
23 discovery process, was that this executive development
24 program was needed so that it was focused on research and
25 job-embedded and it was cohort-based. And you heard what 121
1 was just said. We're trying to bring people into the
2 enterprise of multiple perspectives.
3 This time out of the building, I'm glad someone
4 addressed that from the practicality of it. It's time
5 really in the building, although you're physically not
6 there. It has to do with, about projects that are there.
7 It has to do with the improvements. We are focusing
8 principals on the instructional leadership.
9 And what I mean by that, it's providing some
10 direction of improved instruction leading to higher student
11 achievement. When we looked at the surveys across the
12 country, roughly principals were spending 70 percent of
13 their time on managerial sort of things and about 30
14 percent of their time roughly, not everybody, but roughly,
15 on leadership instruction improvement.
16 So we needed to begin to turn that around. And
17 what resulted then from the work was a two-year effort,
18 which we brought together people from the business world,
19 from military, from education. And some of those are well
20 known to you, and the pamphlets we provided will give you
21 names and so forth.
22 I had been the dean of the National War College
23 for seven years in Washington and worked for the Mayor, so
24 all the best strategic thinking pieces with that and
25 context and so forth, that was -- then folks from U. Penn 122
1 and Penn State and Harvard and so forth, they helped us
2 instruct what is this program, that it really has great
3 leads to strategic thinking, principalized instructional
4 leader and the principal as the creator of a just, fair and
5 caring community within that school.
6 All of those are truly important concepts.
7 We're using a carpet university structure to this. Someone
8 mentioned web-based before. We think that web-based should
9 never be more than 15 or 20 percent of the program that we
10 put together. It's face-to-face interaction with people
11 who have had great success as principals and
12 superintendents and school leaders is extremely important.
13 When you think about it, that mentoring and that
14 coaching and going deep is what's critical here. You need
15 not only to know more; you need to know what to do, and you
16 also need to have that following to go very deep within it.
17 So we're all about creating capacity, and then the folks in
18 the various states and districts we work with, they take
19 the program to the next level with our technical
20 assistance.
21 And it's all about adult education as well.
22 It's filled with exercises and concrete projects of the
23 simulations and the exercises and the web-based. All of
24 that's extremely important to us in making sure that what
25 we give people is really what adults want in professional 123
1 development, not training and not graduate studies, but in
2 professional development.
3 All of our faculty have been former principals,
4 superintendents and/or university folks. To this point,
5 four states have adopted the program totally;
6 Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Minnesota and Mississippi.
7 We're involved with over 2 thousand principals in the
8 program.
9 It's just incredibly important. Some folks
10 mentioned union members and so forth, but we're even
11 carving out smaller programs to make sure that folks in
12 districts really get a hold of the major concept and go
13 deep with those.
14 This was an important moment for us coming to
15 Pennsylvania because of the complimentary and the
16 interlacing of the PIL core standards that Secretary
17 Zahorchak and the Department have already been working on
18 long before there was NISL and then the investigation of
19 the leadership programs across the country.
20 And they're almost an exact fit with what we
21 were doing about thinking and planning strategically,
22 focusing on improved teaching, making sure that that was
23 grounded in the elements of the standards-based education
24 and also making sure that people understood how to gather
25 and apply data to improve the instruction. 124
1 It's only that way that we'll all get to where
2 we need to go in getting that kind of high achievement. So
3 it's been a great privilege for us, and we thank you for
4 the opportunity this morning just to describe in broad
5 terms what is needed. I'd be pleased to answer any
6 questions.
7 CHAIRMAN ROEBUCK: Thank you very much.
8 Are there any questions?
9 (No response.)
10 Thank you.
11 I certainly want to thank all of our presenters
12 for their informative presentations and for being here and
13 also thank our reporter. Thank you, as always, for the
14 good job in a challenging situation. Thank you very much.
15 (The hearing was concluded at 12:15 p.m.)
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1 I hereby certify that the proceedings and evidence
2 are contained fully and accurately to the best of my
3 ability in the notes taken by me on the within proceedings,
4 and that this copy is a correct transcript of the same.
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9 ______10 Jennifer L. Sirois, Court Reporter, 11 Notary Public
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