Seanad Éireann

Vol. 212 Wednesday, No. 11 18 January 2012

DÍOSPÓIREACHTAÍ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SEANAD ÉIREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIÚIL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Dé Céadaoin, 18 Eanáir 2012.

Business of Seanad ………………………………647 Order of Business …………………………………648 Visit of Israeli Delegation………………………………658 Order of Business (resumed)……………………………658 Teaching Council Act 2001 (Amendment of Nominating Bodies) Order 2012: Referral to Joint Committee 666 Patents (Amendment) Bill 2012: Second Stage ………………………666 Irish Language: Statements ……………………………680 Rural Transport: Motion ………………………………706 Suicide Prevention: Statements (resumed) ………………………735 Adjournment Matters Inland Fisheries ………………………………747 School Staffing ………………………………750 Coastal Erosion ………………………………752 Local Government Reform ……………………………755 SEANAD ÉIREANN

————

Dé Céadaoin, 18 Eanáir 2012. Wednesday, 18 January 2012.

————

Chuaigh an Cathaoirleach i gceannas ar 10.30 a.m.

————

Paidir.

Prayer.

————

Business of Seanad An Cathaoirleach: I have notice from Senator Darragh O’Brien that, on the motion for the Adjournment of the House today, he proposes to raise the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Education and Skills to reverse his decision to cut the full- time learning support teacher post at the Old Borough national school, Swords.

I have also received notice from Senator Fidelma Healy Eames of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources to clarify the reason oyster fishing licences are being refused for inner Galway Bay without prior consultation with fishermen or without reviewing available historical data.

I have also received notice from Senator Marc MacSharry of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Finance to allocate emergency funding to address the coastal erosion disaster at Strandhill, County Sligo, which is posing a major threat to the integrity of the coastline.

I have also received notice from Senator Paul Bradford of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to clarify whether he is considering changes to the structures of county and town councils as part of the Government’s proposals on political and electoral reform.

I have also received notice from Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Education and Skills to clarify the reason he is targeting small rural schools for increased enrolments before the publication of the value for money review of small schools.

I have also received notice from Senator Thomas Byrne of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Justice and Equality to outline proposed structural changes to An Garda Síochána in County Meath in terms of Garda district boundaries.

I have also received notice from Senator Martin Conway of the following matter: 647 Order of 18 January 2012. Business

[An Cathaoirleach.]

The need for the Minister for Finance to include surf lessons in the 9% VAT rate that was introduced in the tourism sector as part of the jobs initiative last summer.

I have also received notice from Senator David Cullinane of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources to discuss the importance of the postal service in County Waterford and the current status of the service available to the people of Kill, County Waterford.

I regard the matters raised by Senators Darragh O’Brien, Healy Eames, MacSharry, Bradford, Ó Domhnaill, Byrne and Conway as suitable for discussion on the Adjournment. I have selec- ted the matters raised by Senators Darragh O’Brien, Healy Eames, MacSharry and Bradford and they will be taken at the conclusion of business. I regret that I must rule out of order the matter raised by Senator Cullinane as the Minister has no responsibility in this matter. The other Senators may give notice on another day of the matters they wish to raise.

Order of Business Senator Maurice Cummins: The Order of Business is No. 1, motion re referral of the Teach- ing Council Act 2001 (Amendment of Nominating Bodies) Order 2012 to the Joint Committee on Jobs, Social Protection and Education, to be taken without debate on the conclusion of the Order of Business; No. 2, Patents (Amendment) Bill 2011 — Second Stage, to be taken on the conclusion of No. 1 and to conclude no later than 1.45 p.m., with the contributions of group spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes, those of all other Senators not to exceed five minutes and the Minister to be called on to reply no later than 1.35 p.m.; No. 3, statements on the Irish language, to be taken at 2 p.m. and to conclude no later than 4 p.m., with the contributions of group spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes, those of all other Senators not to exceed five minutes and the Minister to be called on to reply no later than 3.50 p.m.; No. 20, motion 6, which is Private Members’ business, to be taken at 4 p.m. and to conclude no later than 6 p.m.; and No. 4, statements on suicide prevention (resumed), to be taken for one hour on the conclusion of Private Members’ business, with the contributions of Senators not to exceed five minutes and the Minister to be called on to reply no later than ten minutes prior to the conclusion of the debate.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: On behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party, I convey our deepest sympathies to the families of those lost off the coast of west Cork in the recent tragedy. I commend the search and recovery teams on the difficult task they are undertaking. I also wish to convey our sympathies to the family of the editor of the Sunday Independent, Mr. Aengus Fanning. Not all of us would agree with everything he wrote or stood for, but we all agree that he played a major part in journalism with the most prominent Sunday newspaper. We are all saddened by his early passing. Every week since September, I have asked when the Government will publish the mortgage arrears implementation strategy. I learned with great interest this morning that the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, told the Irish Banking Federation that he would be asking banks to deal with their customers, given that the former have the ability to write down debt. I remind colleagues across the House of the time when the Minister of State sat in the ministerial chair in this Chamber and made, in his own words, a bold statement to a Government party Senator to the effect that he would publish the mortgage arrears implementation strategy in advance of the 6 December budget. It was not done. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, was to publish it before Christmas, but that was not done either. We are approaching the end of 648 Order of 18 January 2012. Business

January. When will the Government act on the Keane report, which the Minister has had since September? What will the Government do about it? Our party’s position is clear, in that we should not leave the decision making on this issue to the banks. At least 10% of mortgages in the residential market are distressed or in arrears. I watched yesterday’s report on the debate in the Dáil Chamber with dismay. The Official Report shows that the Taoiseach confirmed to the leader of my party that the cross-departmental committee which is supposed to be coming up with a position in regard to our role in Europe and the EU treaty negotiations has not even met. I remind Members opposite that their respective parties have been in government together for almost 12 months. It takes time to get one’s feet under the desk, but it should not take a year. This is a very serious situation. This morning we heard from RTE that the Taoiseach will tell his EU partners at the upcoming summit, without any preceding Oireachtas debate, whether we require a referendum on the proposed treaty changes. We in this House do not even know what the Government position is in this regard. Did the Government submit any position papers as part of the EU treaty negotiations?

An Cathaoirleach: Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Senator Darragh O’Brien: I do, and it is a very serious question. Did the Government submit any position papers to our EU partners or is it simply sitting on the sidelines? It becomes more apparent with each passing week that the Taoiseach is clueless in these matters and that we are simply being told by our EU partners that the treaty must be signed up to by the end of March. The Oireachtas, on behalf of the people, should be told the Government’s position. Does it intend to use every means at its disposal to ratify a treaty which hands over sweeping fiscal powers to Europe without putting those proposals to the Irish people?

Senator Mary M. White: We must have a referendum.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: Has the Government submitted position papers? What has it said in negotiations? Is it correct that the Taoiseach intends to tell his EU partners, instead of the Irish people, whether we require a referendum? The proposed treaty changes have serious ramifications for the future sovereignty of this country. We must have answers to these questions.

Senator Ivana Bacik: I join Senator O’Brien in conveying the sympathies of the Labour Party Members to the family of the former editor of the Sunday Independent, Aengus Fanning, and to the families of the fishermen lost in the tragedy at sea off west Cork. We all commend the bravery of the search and rescue teams and the immense solidarity and bravery of the local communities in Union Hall. I take this opportunity to commend the Oireachtas library and research service on its excellent briefing on trends in the economy. It managed to make the statistics and figures under- standable and accessible. It is important that it should provide such a service to us, particularly in light of the ongoing crisis at European level. I note the reports today on the attempts at European level to avert default by Greece. It is of immense concern to us all that such a default be prevented. I welcome the establishment by the Government last week of the expert group on the ABC case, in which the European Court of Human Rights found against Ireland in December 2010 in respect of our abortion law. It is very welcome that this Government is finally grasping a nettle which previous Governments failed to grasp. The expert group will examine how to implement the judgment and avoid future litigation against Ireland on this subject. The group, 649 Order of 18 January 2012. Business

[Senator Ivana Bacik.] which is made up of eminent individuals from a range of disciplines, will report within six months. I ask the Leader to allow for a debate on that report following its publication. Will the Leader arrange for a debate on waste strategy in light of the huge concerns of Dublin residents regarding the takeover of the city’s waste disposal service by a private contractor, Greyhound? There has been immense confusion, a lack of notice to residents and the wishes of councillors has been overridden, as city managers are legally entitled to do. The process has not been well managed and there is great concern about the need for upfront payments to Greyhound and for people to maintain money in an account before their refuse will be col- lected. This could lead to a serious crisis for litter collection in the city.

Senator Jillian van Turnhout: I join in the sympathies expressed by colleagues. Will the Leader call on the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, to come to the House to address several issues of concern to Members? There is agreement in regard to child protection and adoption, but several outstanding issues are of great concern to me. The first of these relates to the promised referendum on children’s rights. Concern has been expressed by various children’s organisations and in the media that the amendment to the Constitution (children’s referendum) Bill is included under section C of the Government’s legislative programme rather than as a priority Bill under section A. Is this a reflection of a reduced commitment to holding the referendum without delay? I hope the Minister can provide an assurance to the House that the referendum will take place in 2012 and that she will update us and involve us in the thinking and the process to date. The delay in the construction of the national children’s detention centre is a cause of great concern to me and others in this House. The Government, like its predecessors, is acutely aware that the continued detention of children under the adult regime at St. Patrick’s Institution is one of the State’s most glaring violations of human rights and children’s rights. This goes back to the Whitaker report of 1985; I will not rehearse all that has been said on the subject since. The programme for Government includes a firm commitment to end the practice of sending children to St. Patrick’s Institution. An announcement regarding the promised detention centre was expected in the capital expenditure programme, but I was extremely disappointed to discover it was not included. I understand the situation now is that responsibility for building the detention centre has been passed to the Department of Children and Youth Affairs and that the project must be redrawn in light of current economic circumstances. I wish to ask the Minister for a timeline for the redrawing of the costs of the project and an indication of when the project is expected to be completed. She should inform the House of the interim measures her Department intends to put in place to ensure the boys in question are more suitably accom- modated until such time as the national detention centre is operational. I am also concerned about the proposed new agency to oversee children and family services and how it will be decoupled from the Health Service Executive. I understand plans are being drawn up in this regard; it is important that this House be involved in the development of those plans. The report of the child death review panel was lodged with the Minister before Christmas. Will the Leader ask the Minister to outline the panel’s findings to this House? Instead of doing so at a media launch, the Minister should give us an opportunity to discuss how we can prevent future deaths of children in the care of the State.

Senator Feargal Quinn: Democracy is a great thing. It is interesting to observe what is happening in France, where both a parliamentary election and a presidential election are taking place this year. The range of proposals, suggestions, comments and criticisms that are coming though are very interesting. Without wishing to encroach on the remit of my colleague, Senator Crown, I was fascinated by some of the proposals coming though in the area of health. One 650 Order of 18 January 2012. Business such is the question of generic drugs. It amazes me to see the difference between what we in this country pay for drugs compared with the prices in pharmacies in other countries. The introduction of generics offers an immense opportunity to secure a reduction in costs and prices. Another issue being discussed in France is the cost of laboratory blood tests. There are demands for dramatic decreases in those costs and in the fees charged by X-ray centres. France is also attempting to introduce telemedicine. I do not know a great deal about this but there is great potential in a technology which would enable patients to obtain a doctor’s advice in certain circumstances by way of the Internet. Another proposal is that local health authorities provide health information online. I hope Senator Crown will comment on these issues, particularly the question of reducing costs through greater use of generic medicines. We have been very lax in this regard and there are great benefits to be gained from enhanced competition in this area. Such initiatives have the potential to reduce costs and to lead to a better service.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: This is the Order of Business. I ask that the Leader request the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, to come to this House as soon as possible to discuss the fall-out from the budget to small rural schools, DEIS schools and careers guidance teachers, the positions of which remain unclear. Concern in this regard is building. We need to be honest with the people. It might have been more honest to say there is to be a cut in the pupil-teacher ratio. Let us have a debate on the amalgamation of small rural schools. We need clarity on this issue, in respect of which current debate is not helpful. These cuts are proposed against the background of 99 senior academics refusing to take a pay cut at the request of the Minister, Deputy Quinn. These people are on salaries of more than €200,000 and have been asked to take a cut which would bring them down to €200,000. This is hard to swallow bearing in mind the cuts to basic services at primary and secondary school level. I want to know who these people are. They are supposed to be our educational leaders. Education is the great equaliser. These people, in refusing to step up to the plate and take cuts like the rest of us — I accept they work hard but so do we and we have taken cuts — are reinforcing how unequal Irish society is. I call on the Minister, Deputy Quinn, to ensure these people take a cut in salary. If he needs our help, we are here. The Minister should, if necessary, bring forward legislation to ensure they take a cut. We must all be in this together if we are to recover, not only in terms of the economy but societally. In this regard, we need our educational leaders, in particular third level top notch people, to play their part.

Senator Terry Leyden: I ask the Leader to again consider a resumption in the House of the Second Stage debate on the Registration of Wills Bill 2011, which is No. 17 on the Order Paper. I do not intend the House to resume this debate unless I get some support from the Govern- ment side in this regard. This Bill was approved by the former Leader of the House, Mary O’Rourke——

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: The Bill was discussed in the House at the end of the last session.

Senator Mary M. White: The Senator should be a professor in a university.

An Cathaoirleach: Senator Leyden, without interruption, please.

651 Order of 18 January 2012. Business

Senator Terry Leyden: The Seanad was very progressive from 2002 to 2007 when this Bill was approved and supported by the Fine Gael and Labour parties in this House. However, the Bill was at that stage awaiting Dáil support, having been printed, published and approved.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: That is not correct.

Senator Terry Leyden: The Bill should be passed by this House. I hope to influence the Minister and, in particular, the Taoiseach in this regard. While we now have in place registration in respect of septic tanks, the household charge in respect of private residences and land and a requirement to have licences for televisions and dogs, we do not have in place a registration system in respect of wills, which are important. Wills are being lost and mislaid and people are being deprived of their entitlements. Introduction of this registration system will not cost anything but will be revenue raising for Government——

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: On a point of order, the Senator is misleading the House. This Bill was brought before the House in 2011 and was not supported by Fine Gael or the Labour Party.

An Cathaoirleach: That is not a point of order. The Senator must resume her seat.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: The record must be corrected.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: Senator Healy Eames is very vocal today. She must be getting a hard time from rural schools.

An Cathaoirleach: Senator Leyden, without interruption, please.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: The Senator is very jumpy this morning. She must have had a tough weekend.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: Senator Leyden is misleading the House.

An Cathaoirleach: Senator Leyden, without interruption, please.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: The rural schools must be giving Senator Healy Eames a hard time.

An Cathaoirleach: Does Senator Leyden have a question for the Leader?

Senator Terry Leyden: The Senator is very inexperienced because——

An Cathaoirleach: Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: But very honest.

An Cathaoirleach: Does Senator Leyden have a question for the Leader?

Senator Terry Leyden: Yes. The Leader will confirm that the Bill was debated last year but was not put to a vote. Let us be clear about it and let us correct the record. I will give Senator Healy Eames an opportunity to withdraw her remarks, which were unfair. Support is decided when the vote is taken. One cannot anticipate what would have been the result had the Bill been put to a vote in this House. Let us be clear about that. The Senator has been around for some time. I hope I have been of some help to the Senator in regard to her parliamentary responsibility. 652 Order of 18 January 2012. Business

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: I led the debate and can confirm there was no support for the Bill.

Senator Terry Leyden: I ask that the Leader consider this matter. I will be lobbying Ministers in this regard. I would like the Government to introduce this Bill. I do not want the kudos of having the Bill introduced in my name. I would prefer if the Government introduced it and will lobby councillors throughout the country in this regard.

An Cathaoirleach: The Senator is way over time.

Senator Susan O’Keeffe: I welcome the announcement by the Minister for Transport, Tour- ism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar, that €100 million will be spent on road improvements. While it is acknowledged that it is difficult to proceed with large road projects at this time, improving roads throughout the country will bring much needed safety and better surfaces. However — there is always a “however”—I am extraordinarily disappointed, if not dismayed, to discover that not a single euro will be spent in Sligo, in particular on the N4. Many people in this and the other House will be aware——

Senator Darragh O’Brien: They should get themselves a couple of decent representatives and they might then get a few quid for the roads in Sligo.

An Cathaoirleach: Senator O’Keeffe, without interruption, please.

Senator Susan O’Keeffe: ——that the N4 has been deemed one of the most dangerous roads in the country. Some 29 people have died on one particular stretch of that road over a short number of years. It is one of the only roads in Ireland on which white crosses mark each of those deaths. While they serve as some indication that people should slow down, I am pretty certain no one in the House will agree that they are a replacement for decent and proper upgrading of the road. We all understand that the promised reconstruction of the road has been delayed but much other work could be done on it. I ask the Leader to ask the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, why the N4, given it has been deemed by the county coroner to be one of the unsafest roads in Ireland and by the head of the IDA, Mr. Barry O’Leary, to be a disadvantage for foreign direct investment into Sligo, was omitted from the road improvements programme when everyone in Sligo understood it was at the top of the list.

Senator John Crown: I ask the Leader to consider the holding of a formal debate in this House, with appropriate ministerial presence, on the critical importance, future and threat to the biopharmaceutical manufacturing sector in this country, which is an extraordinarily important part of our economy that gives us a set of international comparators which are in the superlative range in terms of where we are in league tables. Some €49 billion worth of chemicals and pharmaceuticals were exported from Ireland in 2010, which accounts for 55% of all merchandise exports. It is estimated that in 2011 that figure will be 58%. Some €1 billion in corporation tax was generated by this sector, which accounts for one quarter of all corporation tax in 2010, a figure which approximates to 70% to 80% of the stamp duty take at the height of the real estate bubble. The problem that arises in the pharmaceutical sector is that while drugs have patent copyright life cycles of approximately 20 years, they are not commercially available during the initial years but in various phases of clinical trials. As such, the commercial phase during which the drugs can be sold is typically between ten and 15 years. A problem arises in that seven of the top ten drugs in the world, which are made in Ireland, will be coming off or have come off 653 Order of 18 January 2012. Business

[Senator John Crown.] patency between 2010 and 2014. It is estimated that sales of these drugs worldwide will decrease as a result, from €27 billion to €13 billion. Obviously, not all of that loss will be directly felt at manufacturing level as there are various stages to the value adding process. However, this will present a major revenue problem and, more important, a threat to employment in one of the largest sectors in this country. We need a little forward planning in this regard. We need to put in place a strategy along two lines. We need to consider further tax incentives to retain manufacture of some of these drugs if they go off patent and become generic in this country and to incentivise companies — there are new drugs coming on stream all the time — to continue the trend of developing new manufacturing plants for new drugs here. I wonder if the drugs were made here and if the skills and established trade relationships were here, if it would be possible, as drugs come off patent and go the route of generics, for us to reinvigorate our native generic drug sector. If we have the people——

An Cathaoirleach: Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Senator John Crown: My question was posed at the outset of my contribution. I ask that we schedule a debate on the future of the biopharmaceutical sector and its industrial base. We will discuss the issue in more detail on Thursday when we have a debate on job creation, but this specific sector is of critical importance.

Senator Pat O’Neill: I, too, wish to be associated with the expressions of sympathy. I acknowledge the announcement made by the Minister for Transport today that there will not be any new tolls during his time in the Department of Transport. I ask the Leader, however, to provide time for a major debate on fuel costs. On energy costs, we talk about alternative sources such as wind and wave energy, biomass and so on, but they are for 11 o’clock development in the long term. One of the pressing issues is the effect of the cost of fuel and a weaker euro on the cost of running cars, trucks, tractors, trains and even aeroplanes. We are all suffering. Recommendations have been made by associations, including the Irish Road Haulage Association, regarding a fuel rebate, but the matter is not as simple as that. The Leader should arrange a debate on fuel costs. To retain our competitiveness we must reduce transport costs.

Senator David Cullinane: I, too, wish to be associated with the expressions of sympathy. I call for a debate on the health service plan published yesterday by the Minister for Health. It is critical that we have a discussion on the impact the cuts to health services will have in regional and local hospitals. A total of €750 million has been taken from the health budget. A total of €1 billion was taken from it last year. Some 60 beds will be removed from public nursing homes, while 3,000 staff members will be lost across the health service. The Minister has indicated these cuts will have an impact on front-line services. The health service plan states the bulk of the reductions the Health Service Executive is required to deliver this year will impact directly on front-line services, despite the fact the Government promised us it would protect such services, deal with waste and the layers of bureaucracy and management in the system and issues such as the use of branded drugs without impacting on patient care. Having attended a meeting of staff members at Waterford Regional Hospital I am aware that cancer and critical care services in the hospital are at breaking point. There is not even a 24 hour cardiology care service in Waterford or the region, yet we will see a curtailment of services. Surgical wards may close. I am sure the position is the same in every hospital; rather than protect front-line services, the Government, through the cuts made, is putting at risk 654 Order of 18 January 2012. Business patient care. Is the Leader prepared to stand over the cuts that will impact on hospitals in his area? Is he prepared to arrange a debate in which Members can challenge the Minister for Health on the impact the cuts will have on front-line services in every hospital?

Senator John Kelly: In recent weeks many other Senators and I have raised the issue of delays in processing medical card application since the function was transferred to the primary care reimbursement service, PCRS, in Finglas. On a related matter, I recently found out that persons participating in the farm assist scheme were automatically entitled to a medical card and that had been the position for years. They are considered to be persons on social welfare and as a result, regardless of the fact that all social welfare payments exceed the medical card guidelines, entitled to a medical card. The same applies to a married couple in receipt of invalidity pension, although both of them could be in receipt of €460 a week. The guidelines include a figure of €266, but because such persons are on social welfare they receive a medical card. I am now led to believe farm assist scheme recipients are being means-tested and that because their social welfare payment exceeds the medical card guidelines, they are being refused a medical card. Another issue of which I have been made aware recently is that sons and daughters up to the age of 25 years who are living at home and on the maximum rate of unemployment assistance for that age category are being brought into a means-tested category in that their parents will also be means-tested. In order to receive a social welfare payment the family income has to be assessed. They receive the full amount which means the family does not have——

Senator Thomas Byrne: All Members opposite voted for the budget.

Senator John Kelly: Their mothers and fathers are being brought into a means-tested category, which is wrong. That did not happen in the past.

Senator Thomas Byrne: The Senator voted for the budget.

Senator John Kelly: This has only happened since the service was taken over by the PCRS. Rather than raise this matter on the Adjournment, I ask the Leader to ask the Minister for Health what has changed and who has given a directive to the PCRS to deal with people in this manner.

Senator Jim Walsh: As others have said, a good meeting was held this morning organised by the Library and Research Service, together with the Central Statistics Office. The entire economic remit was covered, particularly statistics from the CSO. Senator Crown articulated well one of the issues affecting the pharmaceuticals sector in that seven of the ten major drugs on which we rely heavily in terms of the importance of the pharmaceuticals sector will go off patent between now and 2014. The issue of pensions and the inadequate provision made in that regard was also raised. The third point made had to do with a new problem group — the 30 to 39 year age group which is carrying serious debt. I support the call made by Senator Darragh O’Brien for a debate on the issue. We could usefully have a weekly debate on specific aspects of the economy. It has been identified that a considerable number of people in that cohort account for €7.1 billion of the negative equity figure in the housing market. The nearest group — the 40 to 49 year age category — account for a fidure of €2.1 billion. Urgency is required in tackling this issue. On a number of occasions in the House I have been critical of the failure of leaders at European level to show the urgency required to arrest the stagnation and decline across the eurozone, but it behoves the Government to be super-active in tackling these issues. However, I do not see that level of urgency and would like to the House to reflect 655 Order of 18 January 2012. Business

[Senator Jim Walsh.] on the matter. There are many Members with the required expertise who could make valuable contributions and we should hone in on one area of the economy on a weekly basis.

Senator Michael Comiskey: I wish to be associated with the expressions of sympathy. I raise the issue of carbon monoxide poisoning. As Members will be aware, there was a terrible tragedy in Sligo just before Christmas when a father and his two children were lost. There was also a near miss last week when a family from Donegal were admitted to Sligo General Hospital. I congratulate the students who invented the alarm linked to one’s mobile phone. However, more work could be done in that regard. It should be possible to build a smoke and a carbon monoxide alarm that could be given to older or vulnerable people. It would make an ideal gift for them. It is important the very good publicity campaign being run is continued to make sure such tragedies do not occur in the future.

Senator Mark Daly: I ask the Leader to organise a debate on the forthcoming European Union treaty and the proposals that will be made in the coming days to Ireland and other member states. It beggars belief that the interdepartmental group has not met and that Ireland has not formulated a position on the issue. It appears all we will be doing when we enter the negotiations is accepting what is put in front of us. The Government appears to be shying away from the idea of holding a referendum. This is the most serious treaty to be put before the people since the foundation of the State. When we are handing over sovereignty——

An Cathaoirleach: Does the Senator have a question for the Leader.

Senator Mark Daly: ——and responsibility for the running of the fiscal affairs of the country to the European Union, it is important that the people have their say. There is a provision in the Constitution, Article 27, whereby a majority of the Seanad, with the support of one third of the Dáil, can petition the President to ask for a referendum. I hope that democracy will prevail and my colleagues opposite, whatever their position on the proposals being put before us, will support the right of the people to have their say. Tomorrow in the White House former Congressman Mr. Bruce Morrison and the Irish Lobby for Immigration Reform representative Mr. Ciaran Staunton will meet staff to seek their support for a new visa bill to be introduced by Senator Schumer to get 10,500 visas issued for Irish people, some of whom are currently undocumented in the US. I ask the Leader to organise the debate in the campaigns with the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade to hear the position of the Government. It has stated that it is in favour of visas but not any type of waiver for the current undocumented. We are having a debate on job creation today, which I welcome. As it is a major issue in the country——

An Cathaoirleach: Do you have a question for the Leader?

Senator Mark Daly: I ask that the new public consultation process would organise groups and organisations to come into the House every month and propose detailed legislation as to what——

An Cathaoirleach: That is a matter you can take up with your representative on the CPP.

Senator Mark Daly: ——can be done that will cut red tape and allow job creation.

Senator John Whelan: With the indulgence of the Cathaoirleach, it would be remiss of me not to pay a small tribute and express my condolences to the family and colleagues of Mr. 656 Order of 18 January 2012. Business

Aengus Fanning. I worked at the Sunday Independent for a time and he was one of the country’s most influential figures in journalism. He was a towering figure over the past 30 years and a man who, in his work, probably vexed as many people as he pleased. On a personal level, he was a very decent, kind and compassionate man and a great champion to have in one’s corner. I thank the Cathaoirleach for giving me the opportunity to say that. The substantive issue I raise is not to criticise any Government Minister or complain but to commend the Minister, Deputy Hogan, for his insight and foresight in initiating a six-week consultation process around the entire country on the establishment of a new Irish water utility. Everyone who has a view on this matter, such as environmental, agricultural, community and residential groups and corporate bodies, should all take the opportunity to participate in this process because it will be one of the most profound and important decisions the Government will make. We have until 24 February to make submissions. We need to ensure that we have a safe and sustainable supply of water at an affordable price. I do not believe in and will profoundly protest against any move to set up a new quango with the new chief executive. This country has enough chief executives. The role of Irish water should be afforded to an existing semi-State authority that has the skill sets, capacity and capability to hit the ground running and provide water for the country for commercial, residential and agricultural use into the future. We are the only country in the developed world that does not have a water utility and, according to the OECD, that does not charge for water. I ask the Leader if, over the course of the next six weeks, the Minister, Deputy Hogan, as part of the consultation process, could afford the House an opportunity to feed into the decision-making process and give Senators a chance to have their say. If he is to consult with everyone it is vital that the Seanad has a say on this matter. To be fair to the Minister he has come before the House many times but I ask him to come and hear the views of all sides on the significant decision the Cabinet will make in the next couple of months.

Senator Mary M. White: I would like to be an advocate for older people who are patients in public nursing homes. The issue does not hit the radar as much because older people do not have as strong a voice as those who are young and fit. In recent months the HSE announced that it would cut 550 beds in public nursing homes. Fear and consternation ran through the families and staff of public nursing homes. I attended public meetings on the issue and twice visited Crooksling nursing home in Brittas, County Dublin. I suggest my colleagues visit it. The nursing home was designated for closure. It is situated in idyllic rural surroundings on 23 acres. Deer run around the perimeter of the site. HIQA praised the care and attention the 90 dementia patients received in the nursing home.

An Cathaoirleach: This is an issue that could be raised on the Adjournment.

Senator Mary M. White: It is a current, serious, political national issue that the people who are in public nursing homes face. In the national service plan 2012, launched on Monday, one of the key items was the closure of 555 beds. However, if one has the patience to go through the document — the colleagues who know me well know I am an attention to detail person — its depths state the decision to close the unit will only be taken following an extensive consultation process with the clients and staff of long-stay units. If I was the Minister, Deputy Reilly, I would visit nursing homes to see and hear what the patients, families and staff are saying.

An Cathaoirleach: Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Senator Mary M. White: The Minister, Deputy Reilly, met the residents and staff of Crook- sling. He said he would like to think outside the box to resolve the decision of the HSE to 657 Order of 18 January 2012. Business (Resumed)

[Senator Mary M. White.] close 555 beds. As a business person I understand there have to be efficiencies and improved costs. The staff in Crooksling know it has to be run efficiently. I would like the HSE to work with the Minister to resolve the issue as fast as possible to alleviate the angst and pain of families, clients and staff who work in nursing homes.

Visit of Israeli Delegation An Cathaoirleach: Before I call on Senator Moran, I am sure Members of the House would like to join me in welcoming a delegation from Israel, led by the Speaker of the Knesset, Mr. Reuven Rivlin. He is very welcome and I hope he has a very enjoyable stay in Ireland.

Order of Business (Resumed) Senator Mary Moran: I, too add my sympathies to the family and colleagues of Mr. Aengus Fanning on his passing. I refer to the decision by Diageo to close its plant in Dundalk and relocate everything to St. James’s Gate. I have submitted a request to raise the matter on the Adjournment and I look forward to having the opportunity to speak on this as soon as possible. I also highlight, as many of my colleagues have done, the ongoing problems with our health service, specifically in the north east region. There was a dreadful accident in Drogheda on Monday evening where, tragically, one person lost her life. I want to talk about the delay in the arrival of the ambulance on the scene of the accident. I understand it took more than 40 minutes for the ambulance to arrive and it had to come from a different town. I do not understand why this happened when the largest hospital in the region is less than a mile away. I ask the Leader to call on the Minister to ensure there is a full inquiry into this incident and the ambulance service in the region. As everything in Drogheda was centralised this needs to be highlighted.

Senator Thomas Byrne: I call for an urgent debate on the Meath-Cavan 400 kv power line. The Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, published a report yesterday by an expert group which is welcome. Many previous reports have been welcomed and discussed. The Minister proposes to discuss it with the Joint Committee on Communications, Natural Resources and Agriculture. The Seanad should discuss this in a national context as the issues relevant to the position in Meath and Cavan are very relevant on a national basis, with plans by EirGrid to roll out significant electricity infrastructure around the country. The Seanad should play a role in that. There are many people with interests in the issue and it should not be confined to a joint committee where not everybody might get the opportunity to speak. That is an issue of significant concern, and Fine Gael and Labour made significant promises and commitments on this while in opposition. There were cash commitments for local interest groups, although these have been ruled out by the Minister, Deputy Pat Rabbitte. Neverthless, local Fine Gael Deputies promise that they are working on the issue. That is the same as all the local promises made in County Meath.

Senator Terry Leyden: On a nod and wink.

Senator Thomas Byrne: The Minister may say one thing but the local Deputies say another in promising to sort out the issue. A year has gone by with no regional hospital or stag hunting. The pylons will not be buried and there will be no funding for groups. The Slane bypass has been cancelled. Local Deputies nevertheless argue the issues are in their hands.

An Cathaoirleach: Does the Senator have a question? 658 Order of 18 January 2012. Business (Resumed)

Senator Thomas Byrne: There are two debates, one dealing with electricity infrastructure and another dealing with Government policy and backbencher action. Why is one thing being said in Dublin and another in local areas?

Senator Paul Coghlan: Senators O’Brien and Daly are as hasty as ever in seeking a referendum on the fiscal contract framework arising from the recent summit.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: We are looking for the Government position.

Senator Paul Coghlan: They know well the matter is only at drafting stage and all the countries are making submissions or having an input. As the Taoiseach has stated, it would be very wise to await the final text because we cannot know if treaty change is required until there is a final text.

Senator Mark Daly: On a point of order——

Senator Paul Coghlan: I request the Leader——-

An Cathaoirleach: Senator Daly on a point of order.

Senator Paul Coghlan: The Cathaoirleach knows he is not making a point of order.

Senator Mark Daly: The Government has not put the interdepartmental committee together.

An Cathaoirleach: That is not a point of order. The Senator should resume his seat.

Senator Mark Daly: The Government does not have a position.

Senator Paul Coghlan: I knew well it was not a point of order.

Senator Mark Daly: The Government should have a position.

An Cathaoirleach: Senator Daly must resume his seat. Does Senator Coghlan have a question for the Leader?

Senator Paul Coghlan: I am just coming to it. We understand Senator O’Brien’s political reasons but we must accept it is in the country’s best interests that the Attorney General should not rule on this until we have in position a final text agreed by all the countries. It is only then that it can be properly examined to determine if treaty changes are required from a constitutional perspective. I request the Leader——

Senator Darragh O’Brien: On a point of order——

Senator Paul Coghlan: When we reach that stage——

Senator Darragh O’Brien: I seek to correct the record of the House. That is not what I asked. I wanted to know the current Government position.

An Cathaoirleach: Senator O’Brien is eating into another Member’s time. Does Senator Coghlan have a question?

Senator Paul Coghlan: When we reach the stage where the Attorney General has made a ruling following receipt of a final text, will the Leader allow the House debate the matter?

Senator Mark Daly: The Government should take a position in advance of that. 659 Order of 18 January 2012. Business (Resumed)

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: I want to add to what has been said about the publication of the HSE service plan on Monday, and the ramifications and consequences that publication and acceptance of the plan last Friday by the Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly, will have around the country. The plan will reduce spending in the health service by €750 million this year and 3,200 staff will leave the Health Service Executive. That will have a knock-on effect on the delivery of services in the country. I agree wholeheartedly with Senator White in that public nursing homes are being scapegoated. There is a proposal to cut 555 beds in public nursing homes and buried in the plan is a cut which has been approved by the Minister of almost 900 beds in public nursing homes. That was accepted by the Minister when he signed off on the plan last Friday. That is a fact. We need the Minister to come to the House so we can hold him accountable and cross- examine him on where he will find a home for the 900 people he proposes to make homeless from public nursing homes this year. Which public nursing homes does he propose to close? Last November, the Minister in a radio interview stated that he would not close any nursing homes. The week before Christmas he stated that he would close nursing homes with fewer than 50 patients, which would include quite a few in my constituency. The Minister must be held accountable. He is avoiding the Seanad.

An Cathaoirleach: Is there a question for the Leader?

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: I appeal to the Leader to bring the Minister for Health before the Seanad as quickly as possible to allay fears in our elderly population around the country. He is attacking nursing homes and cutting home help hours by 5% this year. It is a totally unacceptable blatant attack on elderly people. We will not stand for it.

Senator Colm Burke: I join in conveying sympathies to all the families, particularly those in west Cork, which suffered loss in recent days. I pay tribute to the emergency services who responded so quickly; that is a tribute to their commitment to the job. In response to the health question, there is no proposal to close 900 public beds. There is a proposal regarding efficiencies in the health service. Over the past 12 months, 1,250 extra people have been included in the fair deal scheme, which must be acknowledged. I remind colleagues across the floor that €400 million was paid for people who were charged because a proper structure was not put in place for the collection of nursing home charges; that was supervised by previous Governments over 14 years. That €400 million would have been quite handy today to refurbish nursing homes.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: The Senator might declare his interest.

Senator Colm Burke: I wish to raise the non-registration of properties to the Private Residen- tial Tenancies Board. A survey was carried out in Cork over the past few weeks and in the Mardyke alone, of the houses surveyed, 235 houses were not registered. Some 60% of houses around UCC and NCIT are not registered with the PRTB, with a loss of approximately €19 million in fees alone. The board was set up by the last Government——

An Cathaoirleach: This matter could be raised on the Adjournment.

Senator Colm Burke: We could debate the matter as we have gone after certain groups in society with regard to tax.

An Cathaoirleach: Is the Senator seeking a debate?

Senator Colm Burke: Yes. A significant number of properties are not registered and there is a significant loss of income to the PRTB and the Revenue Commissioners. It is a matter for debate and the relevant Minister should be here to discuss it. 660 Order of 18 January 2012. Business (Resumed)

Senator Paul Bradford: I do not believe the Order of Business is the appropriate forum to debate the health service plan in great detail but it is important that the Minister for Health attend the House as soon as possible to discuss last Monday’s announcement and go through the plan. We must acknowledge that every political party in this and the other House respected the concept of €3.8 billion being taken from the budget, and that will affect every Department, including the health service. We should not pretend to be surprised about the impact of cuts in the Department of Health. Senators Quinn and Crown spoke on health-related matters and achieving savings in medicines and generic drugs, which should form part of the debate with the Minister. We will not solve the issue on the Order of Business. I support the call from my colleagues, although I may not agree with all the analysis, and the Minister for Health should attend the House as soon as possible. It has been a welcome feature in recent months that in advance of the publication of legislation, Ministers present their concepts to the appropriate Oireachtas committee, leading to debate of possible legislation in advance and engagement with outside groups and civic society. We are advised that at some stage over the next 12 months, legislation will be brought forward dealing with the future of this House. In advance of the publication of legislation relating to the abolition of the Seanad, it would be appropriate for the relevant Oireachtas committee to engage in a debate on the matter. That discussion should engage with civic society and various interest groups, as that concept has worked well with other legislation. That concept has worked well with other legislation and should equally apply to the proposal on the future of this House.

Senator Paschal Mooney: I, too, wish to be associated with the votes of sympathy to the families of the fishermen drowned in west Cork and the family of Mr. Aengus Fanning who was an outstanding journalist who transformed the face of Irish media. In the light of the competitive pressures being brought to bear by international media moguls, it is a tribute to him that the Sunday Independent continues to enjoy such commercial success. It is a shame Mr. Rivlin, the Speaker of the Israeli Knesset, has left the House. His views on Ireland’s position on the Middle East process have been quoted in the national media. I had a brief exchange with him in the antechamber this morning when I took the opportunity to stress that while there was enormous sympathy for and empathy with the sufferings of the Palestinian people, that should not be interpreted as proof that all Irish people were anti-Israeli. Many of us, including me, are strongly of the view that Israel has every right to exist within democratic and viable borders, just as the Palestinian people have the right to self-determination. The Government is focused on that balancing act in its engagement on the situation in the Middle East. The Tánaiste is following a proud tradition in that regard. Senators Walsh and Crown referred to the ending of patents in the pharmaceutical industry. Together with several Oireachtas colleagues, I was privileged to have been briefed on this issue last week by management at Abbott Laboratories in Sligo. The company employs several thousand staff in various locations across Ireland and is an important driver of job creation. In the context of expiring patents, the company representatives said they were increasingly emphasising research and development and pointed to several trials under way which they hoped would result in the development of viable commercial drugs. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, to address this challenging issue on the next occasion he comes to the House? We must increase investment in research and development, particularly in the pharmaceuticals sector, and also work to encourage new and existing pharmaceutical companies to convert their production lines into producing generic drugs. It has been suggested the Pfizer plant in Cork, at which employment will be lost owing to the ending of patents, may possibly be taken over by an international company which will produce generic drugs. This is relevant in the context of the debate we will have on job creation. 661 Order of 18 January 2012. Business (Resumed)

[Senator Paschal Mooney.] I ask the Minister to outline the Government’s policy on increased investment in research and development and how it proposes to protect jobs in the pharmaceutical industry once patents run out.

Senator Michael Mullins: I support the call made by my colleague, Senator Fidelma Healy Eames, for a discussion with the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, on rural and DEIS schools and the loss of career guidance counsellor positions. The controversy that has erupted in regard to the salaries of senior academics is indicative of the need for the Government to examine the position of very highly paid individuals, including the chief executive officers of semi-State companies. At a time when the country is on its knees, these salary levels should be benchmarked against those in European counterparts. In a context in which we are borrowing every cent we require to meet the day-to-day running costs of the country, we must examine whether those on the highest pay levels are making an adequate contribution to the austerity measures being imposed on everybody else.

An Cathaoirleach: Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Senator Michael Mullins: Will the Leader ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, to examine this issue and facilitate a debate in the House in the near future on the contribution of the most highly paid within the public service and the semi-State sector?

Senator Tom Sheahan: It is unfortunate that our colleague, Senator David Cullinane, has left the Chamber.

An Cathaoirleach: We do not speak about Members who have left the Chamber. The Senator should refrain from doing so.

Senator Tom Sheahan: I am merely supporting the Senator——

An Cathaoirleach: The Senator knows the protocol followed in the House.

Senator Tom Sheahan: ——in his call for the Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly, to come to the House for an earnest debate on the HSE service plan for 2012. As we know, there are lies, damned lies and statistics. For the purposes of that debate, I ask our colleagues on the other side of the House to bear in mind how many beds were closed when the previous Administration was in power. I congratulate my colleague, Senator Catherine Noone, on the survey she has carried out on the Croke Park agreement. That agreement is the elephant in the room. It comes down to a choice between retaining the same number of front-line staff on less pay or having fewer front- line staff on the same pay. The choice was made, under the Croke Park agreement, that we would have fewer staff and maintain pay rates.

An Cathaoirleach: Will the Senator, please, put a question to the Leader?

Senator Tom Sheahan: I am not a mathematician, but I have done some sums. If there was a 5% reduction in salary for those earning more than €65,000 in the HSE and a 10% cut for Professor Crown and his consultant colleagues, there would be no need for any cuts in the service programme for 2012.

Senator Mary M. White: Senator Crown does not take his Seanad salary. 662 Order of 18 January 2012. Business (Resumed)

Senator Tom Sheahan: I hope we will have an open and frank debate.

(Interruptions).

An Cathaoirleach: We are out of time. I am sorry I could not facilitate Senators Martin Conway and Catherine Noone. There was insufficient time to do so, with 26 Senators contribu- ting this morning.

Senator Maurice Cummins: I join all the Members who expressed their sympathy to the families of the fishermen lost in the accident off the west Cork coastline. The skipper of the vessel was a fellow county man of mine, from the small village of Bunmahon in Waterford. Our hearts go out to all the families. Likewise, we extend our sympathy to the family of Mr. Aengus Fanning, editor of the Sunday Independent and a very influential figure in Irish journalism. Senator Darragh O’Brien asked about a strategy to deal with the issue of mortgage arrears. I will endeavour to have the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, come to the House to address the issue. In regard to an interdepartmental committee on Europe, there has been constant speculation as to whether there will be a referendum. One does not put all of one’s cards on the table before going into the negotiating room. That is not how one operates in negotiations. The Government is working very well on the matter, but the question of a referendum has not yet been decided upon. Moreover, the advice has not yet been given. As Senator Paul Coghlan observed, it is better that we have the final text in order to decide whether a referendum is necessary. We should not rush our fences on such important issues. There must be proper consideration of these matters in order to avoid rash decisions. Senator Ivana Bacik has called for a debate on the report of the expert group on the ABC case as soon as it is published. I will be pleased to facilitate such a debate. The Senator also seeks a debate on the need for a waste strategy. Waste collection services in Dublin are a matter for the local authorities, but we can have a broader debate on the need for a waste strategy with the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan, in due course. Senator Jillian van Tunhout asked that the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, update the House on her plans to hold a referendum on the issue of children’s rights. The Government’s legislative programme, issued last week, attempts to accu- rately reflect the position of legislation in the process at a particular point. The heads of the legislation relating to the children’s rights referendum has not as yet cleared Cabinet. However, work on it is ongoing. It is a top priority for Government, as confirmed by the Government Chief Whip this morning. The stated position of Government is that the referendum will be held in 2012. Senator van Turnhout also raised the issue of accommodation for young offenders, which is an important issue. I will ask the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs or the Minister for Justice and Equality to come to the House to address that issue at a later stage. Senator Quinn and other Senators raised the issue of generic drugs and the possibility of reducing costs in this regard. The Senators also mentioned blood tests, x-rays and the use of the Internet in regard to education on health. This is an important issue, one that must be addressed, in particular given the comments of Senator Crown and others in relation to the pharmaceutical industry. Senator Crown mentioned that seven out of ten of our top selling drugs are due to come off patency in the coming years, which creates a problem. The Minister, Deputy Reilly, is addressing the area of generic drugs. It is hoped Senator Crown will expand 663 Order of 18 January 2012. Business (Resumed)

[Senator Maurice Cummins.] further on his ideas in this regard during the debate on jobs ideas on Thursday. We look forward to that debate. Senator Healy Eames spoke about education matters, including DEIS and small rural schools and guidance counsellors. She also highlighted the issue of senior academics refusing to take a pay cut. It is disgraceful that some of these people have not even replied to the Minister’s request.

Senators: Hear, hear.

Senator Maurice Cummins: I agree that they should be benchmarked against their EU counterparts. It is not acceptable that these people can live in ivory towers when the Taoiseach is prepared to take a cut and have his salary capped at €200,000. These people, who are well heeled, should take such a cut. I will ask the Minister, Deputy Quinn, for a wide-ranging debate on education. The Minister will be in the House next week dealing with legislation. Senator Leyden asked about the position of the Registration of Wills Bill 2011. While the principle of the Bill was acknowledged, there is no question but that it was technically flawed, which is the reason it has not been dealt with. I will ascertain for the Senator whether the Government intends to introduce a Bill in that regard. Senator O’Keeffe welcomed the announcement by the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, of road improvement grants of €100 million and spoke of the dangerous condition of the N4 which has not been included in the roads improvement programme. I will try to ascertain the reason for this for the Senator. I am sure every road is prioritised by the National Roads Authority. I will try to get some further information for the Senator. I have already addressed the issues raised by Senator Crown, including putting in place tax incentives for further research and the recommencement of our own industry in the pharmaceutical area. I am sure the Senator will raise this issue again during Thursday’s debate on jobs ideas. In Thursday’s debate, all Senators will be given five minutes to put forward their ideas on job creation. The House will be flexible but Senators should stick to ideas for job creation rather than straying into other areas. It is hoped that following that debate the Leaders of the various groups will put together bullet points in regard to ideas put forward by their counterparts which can then be presented to the relevant Ministers. This will show that this House is meaningful. Many Members of this House are capable of coming up with ideas in respect of much needed jobs. Senator O’Neill welcomed the announcement by the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, that no further tolls will be introduced during the next few years. He also called for a debate on fuel costs. The issue of fuel costs, raised in committee by the Irish Road Haulage Association, deserves further discussion. I will endeavour to have the Minister come to the House to discuss the issue of fuel costs and diesel laundering which was raised by Senator Quinn and other Members. This practise is causing major problems not alone in terms of collecting moneys for the Exchequer but in an environmental context. Senator Cullinane and other Members called for a debate on the health service plan. I will endeavour to have the Minister, Deputy Reilly, come to the House to address the problems raised in that regard. The Government faced difficult choices in setting the health estimate. It has set as its priority the maintenance, to the greatest extent possible, of the service within the resources available. Everyone will accept that the combination of saving measures, including the absence of extra funding for unavoidable extra costs, service needs, plus the further reduction in the numbers employed will inevitably impact on services across care programmes. 664 Order of 18 January 2012. Business (Resumed)

There is no question about that. The Government is committed to developing a universal single tier health service which guarantees access for medical procedures based on need rather than income. This continues to be the aim of Government. Senator Kelly raised the issue of processing medical cards and pointed out the difficulties being experienced with pharmacies and so on. I acknowledge that there is a problem in terms of delays in processing medical card applications. I do not believe 85% of applications are dealt with within ten to 15 days. I do not know from where that figure comes. I know that people are experiencing significant delays, in particular in respect of discretionary medical cards for people with terminal illnesses who would normally be given medical cards. These applications are being delayed and choked up in the system. I agree with Senator Kelly that this issue needs to be addressed. Senator Walsh called for a weekly debate on economic issues. It may not be possible to arrange on a weekly basis for a Minister to attend the House for a debate on economic issues. However, I will endeavour to do so. The Minister, Deputy Noonan, and the Minister of State, Deputy Hayes, have been in the House on many occasions in recent months. Senator Comiskey raised the important issue of carbon monoxide poisoning and alarms on mobile phones and so on. Carbon monoxide and radon gas are causing problems. We need to highlight these issues by way of an information campaign so that people are aware of risks of carbon monoxide poisoning and so on. Senator Daly called for a debate on the EU treaty. One does not go into negotiations putting all ones cards on the table. Senator Daly also spoke about democracy. Democracy has always prevailed with parties on this side of the House and that will continue to be the case. On the introduction of a waiver for the undocumented Irish, the Government is campaigning and negotiating with its colleagues in the US in this regard. A number of Senators called for a debate on foreign affairs. The Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Gilmore, will be in the House on 2 February for a two- hour debate on various issues in regard to foreign affairs. The points raised by Members can be raised during that debate. In response to Senator Whelan’s remarks regarding Irish Water and a consultation process, the Minister of State, Deputy O’Dowd, will be in the House next week to address the issue of the establishment of Irish Water. This will provide the Senator and other Members with an opportunity to contribute to the debate on the issue. Senators White and Ó Domhnaill spoke about the loss of public nursing home beds. As Senator White noted, there will be an extensive consultation process in that regard. Senator Moran referred to the decision made by Diageo, as well as delays in the ambulance service. She indicated her intention to raise both matters on the Adjournment and I encourage her to so do. Certainly, it is a serious matter if it takes 40 minutes for an ambulance to arrive at the scene of an accident. Senator Byrne mentioned items pertaining to EirGrid and the electricity infrastructure that can be debated with the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Rabbitte, when he comes into the House. Senator Colm Burke also raised the issue of nursing homes, as well as the question of houses not registered with the Private Residential Tenancies Board and the consequential loss of income to the Exchequer and the PRTB. This is a matter on which greater emphasis should be placed and those who have not registered their houses should be pursued. All landlords are aware they should be registered with the PRTB if their houses are rented. This matter should be followed up by the relevant authorities. 665 Patents (Amendment) 18 January 2012. Bill 2012: Second Stage

[Senator Maurice Cummins.]

Senator Bradford mentioned the practice of holding debates on legislation in advance, with particular reference to the proposed referendum on the Seanad and the relevant Oireachtas committee. I ask those Members who are members of the aforementioned committee to call for such a debate on the issue at that committee. Senator Mooney spoke about a foreign affairs matter. I believe I have dealt with it, as the Tánaiste will attend the House. Senator Sheahan discussed the Croke Park agreement and the cuts made as a result of the agreement. I believe I have dealt with most items raised and apologise if I have not addressed each item raised by Senators.

Order of Business agreed to.

Teaching Council Act 2001 (Amendment of Nominating Bodies) Order 2012: Referral to Joint Committee Senator Maurice Cummins: I move:

That the proposal that Seanad Éireann approves the following Order in draft:

Teaching Council Act 2001 (Amendment of Nominating Bodies) Order 2012,

copies of which were laid before Seanad Éireann on 9th January, 2012, be referred to the Joint Committee on Jobs, Social Protection and Education, in accordance with Standing Order 70A (3), which, not later than 7th February, 2012, shall send a message to the Seanad in the manner prescribed in Standing Order 73, and Standing Order 75(2) shall accordingly apply.

Question put and agreed to.

Patents (Amendment) Bill 2012: Second Stage

Question proposed: “That the Bill be now read a Second Time.” Acting Chairman (Senator Paschal Mooney): Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit.

Minister of State at the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation (Deputy Sean Sherlock): I am pleased to bring before the Seanad for its consideration the Patents (Amendment) Bill 2011, the main purpose of which is to make the necessary changes to the Patents Act 1992 to provide for the ratification by Ireland of the London Agreement. The London Agreement, to which Ireland is a signatory, is aimed at reducing the cost of the Euro- pean patent process to applicants by reducing the requirement to file translations of the granted patents under the European Patent Convention. Before considering the provisions of the Bill, I wish to set out the background to it. It is clear Ireland’s international competitiveness increasingly depends on marketable high-value goods and services which have strong knowledge content. In spite of the challenging economic environment, approximately 50% of all enterprises in Ireland continue to engage in significant research and development activities. A recent report shows that enterprises across all business sectors spent almost €1.8 billion on research and development activities in 2010 and to convert that investment into economic growth Ireland needs an effective patent system. It is incumbent on the Government to provide the very best framework for these resulting innovations to be captured and exploited in a manner that will create high-value employment. 666 Patents (Amendment) 18 January 2012. Bill 2012: Second Stage

Any unnecessary legal or administrative barrier in the intellectual property framework that limits access owing to high translation costs or other factors will not serve its purpose. Providing efficient and affordable access to registering patents is vital to stimulating innovation in Irish enterprises, universities and research institutions. The high cost of obligatory translations of granted European patents acts as a deterrent to filing patents and, as a consequence, to innovation. By lowering the current cost barriers to entry and enhancing SME access to the patent system, the London Agreement represents a significant step forward for the European patent system. As for the London Agreement, the European Patent Office, established by the European Patent Organisation, is an intergovernmental institution comprising 38 European states, including the 27 EU member states. The office examines patent applications and grants a European patent, should the relevant conditions be met. Patent applications originating in Ireland and granted by the European Patent Office have been increasing steadily, underlining the importance to the Irish research sector, both public and private, of European patent protection. Since 2004, the number of Irish patent applications to the European Patent Office has risen by 48% , with grants of European patents to Irish applicants increasing by 34%. However, the patent process at European level is both complex and expensive, acting as a disincentive to innovation, especially for young innovative start-ups with limited resources. An enterprise endeavouring to protect its innovation throughout Europe will apply to the European Patent Office for a patent. At this stage, applicants can file their application in English, French or German, thus saving on translation costs at this early stage. The claim which sets out the limits of the mon- opoly granted is published in the three languages upon grant. Once granted, the European patent is, in effect, a bundle of national patents and the pro- prietor must validate or file the patent in each state in which patent protection is required. In order to validate a European patent in a country, a full translation of the patent must be lodged in each country designated in the national language of that country. These translation costs make up a large proportion of the costs of acquiring a European patent and constitute a cost enterprises can scarsely afford at a vital stage of expensive product development. This process ensures the European patent is uncompetitive when compared with the cost of acquiring US or Japanese patents. Under the current system, a European patent validated in 13 European countries is approximately ten times more expensive than a US patent and 13 times more costly than a Japanese patent. The key cost difference is the processing and translation costs involved with a European patent. In this context, validating a patent in 27 European countries can cost up to €32,000, of which €23,000 alone is for translations. Approximately 75% of the cost differ- ential between the granting of a European and US patent is due to translation costs. It is, therefore, right and proper that this cost, which is functioning as a very real barrier to exploiting innovation in Europe, should be tackled. The publication of the translations takes place very late in the life cycle of a patent. As these translations are only provided after the patent is granted, they do not serve the 12 o’clock purpose of informing the public about new technologies on a timely basis. It can take up to five years to grant a patent, meaning that any cutting-edge technology described in a patent is usually already in the public domain and rendering the translation, as an information tool, obsolete even before it is completed. Research has shown that these costs have forced Irish innovators to take a selective, cost-effective approach when designating states for patent protection. This leaves patents vulnerable in those states where innovators simply cannot afford to validate them. The advantages arising from implementation of the London Agreement, quite apart from the direct translation costs, can also have a positive effect on research and development and 667 Patents (Amendment) 18 January 2012. Bill 2012: Second Stage

[Deputy Sean Sherlock.] can enable scarce financial resources currently spent on translations to be reallocated to research and development and other business activities. The London Agreement is now in force in 17 of the 38 member states of the European Patent Organisation, including, importantly, major Irish trading markets such as the UK, France and Germany. Ireland hopes to join that number shortly and, in doing so, wishes to encourage other states to follow in order to further reduce costs for Irish patent holders registering their innovations throughout Europe. The overall aim of the London Agreement is to reduce the cost of translations across the 38 member states by approximately 50%. To reach this level of reduction, it is vital that all contracting states to the European Patent Convention become party to the agreement. I wish to outline how the London Agreement works in practice. Article 65 of the European Patent Convention provides that any contracting state may require a translation of the full text of a European patent into one of its languages, if that language is different from the language in which the patent is granted. Under the London Agreement, countries will, either partly or wholly, waive the requirement for translations of European patents to be filed in their national language. This means that under the agreement, a member state with English, French or German as an official language will dispense with translation requirements entirely in order to for the European patent to come into effect. Ireland, with English as an official language, will no longer require a translation into English of the detailed specification of European patents drawn up in French or German. In accordance with best practice and to assess the implications for Irish inventors and businesses, my Department carried out a regulatory impact assessment in respect of the London Agreement in 2009. This established that the main advantage of the agreement for Irish inventors seeking patent protection abroad is that it would no longer be necessary for them to furnish translations to the extent currently required in those countries which are party to the agreement. This would lead to significant savings when filing a European patent in other non-English language European states. There would be a significant reduction not only in translation costs but in the context of publication and patent attorney fees. The impact assessment also highlighted that in 2007 Ireland was the origin for some 126 European patents that were granted. The cost of designating these patents in 28 states was estimated at €6 million. If the significant impact of additional publication and patent attorney fees are added, this represents a considerable cost to Irish industry. To bring Irish law into line with the London Agreement, it is necessary to amend our primary legislation. The core of Irish patent law is the Patents Act 1992, which is designed to meet our national needs and international obligations. We continue to amend this primary Act to ensure that the patent legislative framework remains robust and fit for purpose. The Patents (Amendment) Bill 2011 is a short but very important item of legislation which amends three sections of the Patents Act 1992 to allow for the forthcoming ratification by Ireland of the London Agreement. The other two sections provide standard provisions for legislation. Section 2 amends the provisions of section 119 of the Patents Act 1992. These changes relate to the translation requirements for official language translations. It is necessary to delete section 119(6) to ensure that a translation in English of a European patent specification no longer needs to be filed in the Irish Patents Office in order for that patent to have effect in Ireland. Section 3 provides for the repeal of section 119A of the 1992 Act in its entirety. Transposing the London Agreement into Irish law means that this section will no longer be necessary or applicable when section 119(6) is deleted. Section 4 amends section 121(2) of the 1992 Act and deals primarily with what constitutes an authentic text of the patent in cases of dispute.

668 Patents (Amendment) 18 January 2012. Bill 2012: Second Stage

Section 5 provides for the Short Title, collective citation and commencement provisions of the Bill. The text relating to commencement contained in this section is standard in nature and allows for the legislation to come into operation on a date or dates to be specified in an order or orders. This provides some ministerial discretion with regard to when the Act will become effective in law. The purpose of this provision is to allow for any administrative changes which may be required before the Act can commence. In this instance, it is necessary for the corre- sponding patent rules to be amended to bring them into line with the London Agreement. The proposed amendments to the patent rules of 1992 are being drafted at present, in consultation with the Office of Parliamentary Counsel. It is my intention to commence the Act and the new patents (amendment) rules 2012 by way of an order as close to the enactment of this Bill as possible. The legislation, as published, was the subject of one minor amendment in the Dáil in respect of section 5. That amendment altered the title of the Minister following on from the change of name of the Department by Statutory Instrument No. 245/2011, which came into effect on 2 June last. The Bill before the House is just one of many steps being taken to reduce the burden of patent costs. I take this opportunity to update Senators on a separate development at EU level. We are currently working with other member states towards finalising legislation for the creation of unitary patent protection that will reduce the cost of registration and enforcement of patents for businesses. Various proposals for a single EU patent have been under discussion for more than 50 years. Just prior to Christmas, 25 member states reached political agreement with the European Parliament on regulations for a unitary patent. This will lead to the introduction of a simpler, cheaper and more robust patent system in the European Union of the type which has eluded it for decades. When fully implemented, the unitary patent will enable Irish- based holders of patents to seek protection for their patents across the 25 member states supporting unitary patent protection — representing 79% of the territory of the European Union — for a fraction of current costs. The European Commission estimates that by implementing unitary patent protection, the overall savings to European business could be up to €50 million per annum, even in the early stages. These cost savings should be of particular benefit to Irish high-tech start-ups and small enterprises. When fully implemented, a unitary patent will mean large reductions in red tape and costs. This will stimulate European innovation and make patents more accessible to all companies in the European Union. I look forward to reporting back to the House when legislation for this unitary patent and its enforcement is finalised. Until an EU unitary patent comes into force, perhaps in 2014, Ireland will continue to improve the patenting process in any way possible. The Patents (Amendment) Bill 2011 builds on our continuing efforts to facilitate Irish-based enterprises and research institutions in their effort to ensure that their innovations are properly protected in as many states as possible and at the lowest cost. I am confident the House will strongly endorse any initiative which reduces costs for innovation in Ireland in an efficient and inexpensive manner. The enactment of the Patent (Amendments) Bill 2011, followed by our ratification of the London Agreement, will remove the current expensive translation requirements. In addition, Ireland is likely to be designated in more patent applications, increasing overall patent-related activity here. It is expected that more inventors and small and medium-sized enterprises, currently deterred from registering patents because of the high costs involved, will be attracted to protecting their intellectual property across Europe. This will further support Ireland’s efforts to generate economic growth through promoting and innovating better processes and products. I commend the Bill to the House. 669 Patents (Amendment) 18 January 2012. Bill 2012: Second Stage

Senator Mary M. White: I congratulate the Minister of State on his first appearance in the Seanad and on introducing this Bill. It was a great pleasure to know his late father. I used to meet him early every morning in the corridors of Leinster House, so I am sure he is proud looking down on his son today. I would also like to congratulate the Minister of State on the great job he is doing in office. The delivery of his speech was impeccable. It was a pleasure to listen to him.

Senator John Gilroy: Flattery will get you everywhere.

Senator Mary M. White: I feel like it is a waste of time talking here, because the Minister of State has said it all. Fianna Fáil will be supporting this Bill and it is a pleasure for me as a business person and a nominee of the Irish Exporters Association to support this Bill. As the nominee of that association I was approached by it to draw attention to an intellectual property tax on patents that had a very negative effect on inventors and ideas here. The UK abolished this, but it was under the radar here. I approached the former Minister for Finance, Charlie McCreevy, on it. He brought his two senior departmental officials to the meeting and they said that it could not be done, because they felt that if the tax was not continued, there would be a loss of money to the Exchequer. I told the then Minister that the British had got rid of it, so he decided to deal with it in the Finance Bill. I was delighted with myself and I understood that it was a financial disincentive for people who developed intellectual property. It was a contradiction. The last Government set up an innovation task force. Innovation is what drives business and patents are part of that. When Deputy O’Dea was speaking on this Bill in the Dáil, he drew attention to the history of patents. Trade has been happening since the beginning of time. There is nothing new when it comes to trade. Innovation and the development of new ideas have been there forever. At the end of the day, this creates employment and keeps society developing and distributes wealth, and young people can participate in the development of new ideas. Deputy O’Dea said that, “The first recorded instance we can trace of a patent being granted was in 500 BC when the Greek city of Sybaris granted a patent to people who were developing new refinements of luxury.” He also said that all these luxury goods reminded him of the Celtic tiger. He went on to say:

In 1449 King Henry VI granted to England the first patent for the introduction of making coloured glass. Patents in the modern sense originated in 1474 when the Republic of Venice enacted a decree that new and inventive devices, once put into practice, had to be communi- cated to the republic to obtain the right to prevent others from using them. England followed Venice and the first statutory provision we can find is the Statute of Monopolies 1623 under King James I. In the United States, during the so-called colonial period and Articles of Confederation years, 1778 to 1789, several states adopted patent systems of their own. The first Congress adopted a Patent Act in 1790 and the first patent was issued under this Act on 31 July 1790.

That is a fascinating narrative of the development of patents. This Bill will ratify the London Agreement and will mean less bureaucracy and less cost, and therefore a big incentive to foreign innovation in this country. We are committed to trans- forming Ireland into an innovative hub and increasing innovation and entrepreneurship, which is why we are supporting the Bill. We in Fianna Fáil get a lot of abuse from the parties in government, criticising Fianna Fáil when it was in office. However, multinational companies still come to Ireland, no matter what was going on here, because we had a steady, stable Government. That is a key reason multinational companies come to this country. 670 Patents (Amendment) 18 January 2012. Bill 2012: Second Stage

Senator John Gilroy: The Senator should come into the real world.

Senator Mary M. White: I will not mention names, but other countries have great intellectual ability and much better research facilities than us. In fact, I will mention names. Israel has spent an incredible amount of money on research and invention and has brought new ideas from universities to the market. However, there is political instability in the area. When Fianna Fáil was in government, the message was sent out relentlessly that multinationals are welcome in Ireland and that there is political stability. In spite of the civil war in the North, they still continued to come here. I would again like to compliment the Minister of State and his staff on this excellent speech on this patent Bill.

Senator Deirdre Clune: As the Minister of State said, this is a very small but important Bill, as we try to make it more efficient for businesses to register patents and to access patents and patent information. He outlined in his speech the contents of the Bill and the background to it, which was very informative. I was glad to hear him talk about the legislative changes that are happening at EU level, because that is very important. We often hear how difficult it has been to get intellectual property to patent in Europe, which is seen as being uncompetitive when compared with the US and the BRIC countries. The Minister of State said he would be coming back to this House to explain that legislation once it is published, and I welcome that. The Minister mentioned in the Dáil that his Department had carried out a regulatory impact assessment on the Bill, as would be expected. The fact that translations are no longer necessary will reduce costs for patents. Any step in that direction is welcome. Patents are very important. They provide certainty to businesses and enterprises. They give them protection for a limited period, which is 20 years in most cases, although they can differ. The fact that the intellectual property is registered means that it is there for other researchers, entrepreneurs and other investors to view and to see what work has been done in a given area. That is very important if we are to collaborate on information and research so that others can benefit. A patent has two sides as not only does it protect the item, process or product, it also provides an opportunity to pool information, which is important. We need an effective patent system that will convert investment in research into economic growth. The Minister of State is directly responsible for promoting investment in research and development and supporting innovation. This makes him responsible for a very important sector. The innovation task force reported in March 2010 and identified many ways by which we could make it easier to access intellectual property and develop an innovation-intensive economy. It stated we should nurture the creation of ideas and protect them, which we do through the patenting system. However, we need a more efficient and effective approach to identifying and accessing intellectual property through commercial research. This is vital to strengthening the commercialisation focus. It is possible to make Ireland a centre of international best practice for employment benefits to attract foreign investment. As Senator White mentioned, we need to develop a protocol to give certainty to entrepreneurs and companies in order that there will be clarity on the terms on which they can access intellectual property from third level institutions and take those products, services and processes to customers. An important recommendation of the innovation task force is that Ireland develop as an international innovation services centre offering intellectual property management, licensing and trading services. It is a niche area we could develop and which is becoming more and more important. Our membership of the European Union and our English-speaking community will help us in this regard. The Bill is a step towards ensuring this process can be put in place. 671 Patents (Amendment) 18 January 2012. Bill 2012: Second Stage

[Senator Deirdre Clune.]

Every year Forfás produces a strategy for science and technology indicators. If Ireland is to be internationally recognised as a centre for excellence, we need to be at the forefront in generating and using new knowledge. The most recent Forfás report recognised the enhanced contribution of research to economic development and the quality of our research. It stated we should increase economically relevant knowledge, including patents from third level institutions. Ireland is a premier location for carrying out research. The report states the policy for capacity building has been developed and delivered and that we now need to move forward and concentrate on commercialisation and transferring the knowledge we possess into business, job creation and commercial activity. In this regard, the report of Jim O’Hara’s high level group on research prioritisation will be very important. It is important to note that the Forfás report states private industry is responsible for 66% of research and development activity in the economy. We get the impression it is all about Government and State investment, but it is not. The news provided in the report on citations is very good, as Ireland is ranked eighth of 20 leading economies. The areas in which we really excel are agriculture, immunology and medical sciences. It is a very interesting and important report to read. I support the Bill, which is very short but important. It allows us an opportunity to focus on research, investment and supporting small and medium enterprises in innovation, research, creating jobs and securing the future economic well-being of the country. Much more could be stated on this topic and I hope the Minister of State will return to the House to discuss the matter of research and innovation and how we will rebuild the economy.

Senator John Crown: I welcome the Minister of State and also his efforts in this area. I have a keen interest in the issue of research, particularly medical research but also more generally. I have a very firm near ideological conviction that the future of the country, its salvation and the solution to many of our problems will be largely linked with investment and the appropriate steps we now take in the realms of research, development, investigation, science, technology and engineering. Anything — the Bill appears to be a very good example — which reduces obstruction and greases the wheels in facilitating innovation is to be welcomed. In this regard, I commend the efforts of the Minister of State and the broader European approach adopted. The situation in Europe is a little depressing. We must have the historical context and realise that for most of recorded history, certainly the past 600 years, Europe, with our separated brethren in North America in the latter part, has been the driver of research and innovation in chemistry, physics, medicine, biology and weather science. This has translated into techno- logical and economic advances. We reached a stage where one could go to any premises selling goods in the 1960s and find that most of the goods sold were manufactured in western countries, reflecting the translation of scientific advances through engineering, technology and commercialisation. Something profound is happening. We are in a situation where much of this ultimately science-based wealth creation has been outsourced outside the western world. A cursory inven- tory of what is for sale in any shop, hardware store, electronics goods store or automobile showroom will indicate that the innovation-driven approach to manufacturing which sustained and developed the economies of the western world and funded the social democracies which are so dear to us is being eroded. If we lose wealth creation and the innovative edge, we will be at a colossal competitive disadvantage compared to countries which have already established a competitive advantage in labour costs. In this regard, we must take a broad look at things which tend to get in the way. A little aside which I am mentioning for the first time in the House but which I will mention again in 672 Patents (Amendment) 18 January 2012. Bill 2012: Second Stage several fora in the coming weeks is that there is a view within Europe, as a result of which medical schools in Ireland may be de-recognised because of a bureaucratic imperative, that only medical schools which provide six year educational programmes, as opposed to the four or five year programmes now in place in Ireland and the United Kingdom, should receive recognition. This is an issue I intend to raise at the British-Irish Parliament Assembly. The Minister of State should use his influence with the Minister for Education and Skills and the Minister for Health to try to foster the notion that science education be mandatory until the date students leave school, not because of the primacy of science over the arts or because we should try to develop an entire generation of people who will become professional scientists, but because science is the language of nature, nature being the law of the world and universe in which we live. It would help to foster a pro-innovation and science culture in society if more and more people understood this and did not see science as a peripheral egg-headed minority pursuit conducted by a small elite. To capitalise on initiatives such as this we will need to take a serious look at providing novel tax incentives for companies which may be winding down their manufacturing processes to ramp up their research and development processes. Senator Mooney mentioned this earlier in the context of Abbott pharmaceuticals in Sligo, and a more general point could be made in that regard. Specifically with respect to patents, the agencies of the State correctly incentivise people doing research to consider potential intellectual property in patent spin-offs. That is something people like me who have been involved in research sometimes are bad at because we want to publish papers to advance the field we work in and increase our own standing within the field as researchers of stature. Ego, not money, is the oxygen of science and the reality is that many people who are involved in science are not focused on issues such as intellectual property and patents, although that is changing. As a result, the agencies of the State have correctly attempted to educate people in their dealings with outside granting agencies and with the industry about the importance of including that. I would not say that is negative, wrong or should not be done. However, we need to put some thought into the way it is exercised. I have noticed on some occasions that certain unrealistic expectations are raised in terms of asking external companies who may own very promising compounds and who can go to any academic institution anywhere in the world and offer those companies for research but who choose to come to Ireland to surrender future intellectual property on peripheralised discoveries which might be made from their work. A generic example would be a company which has a new drug. It is a good drug and people here want to do research on the drug, which shows great promise. We want to associate ourselves with it. We want to get it for our patients and into our clinical trials. We hope that the halo effect which comes from that kind of involvement may ultimately make that company somewhat better inclined towards siting one of its manufacturing plants for that product here. However, if someone is doing some work on it, say, to decide if a group of patients might derive a particular benefit from it, we found that we were somewhat constrained by the granting agencies which were insisting that we should ask the companies in advance to surrender intellectual property. That does not happen with most of the newer biotechnology companies. Their research and development divisions are equalled only in scope and sophistication by their legal intellectual property, IP, divisions. This is not a criticism. I am extraordinarily supportive of Science Foundation Ireland in particular, and I welcome its new leader, which does an extraordinarily good job but we might need to think about the way we position ourselves with respect to the demands of intellectual property and patency requests from some of the companies with which we are dealing. Anything which greases the wheels of innovation can only be good for our society. The future is science and technology, and I include agricultural science, agribusiness, manufacture 673 Patents (Amendment) 18 January 2012. Bill 2012: Second Stage

[Senator John Crown.] and novel approaches to energy production in that sector. If we are to get ourselves out of the difficulties we are in I believe most of the improve will come in that area. I thank the Minister of State for his attention.

Senator John Gilroy: I welcome the Minister of State to the Chamber. It is good to see him back again. I thank the Minister of State for his comprehensive explanation of what is a short but important and in many ways a technical Bill. I do not propose to speak too long on this Second Stage of the Bill but will reserve my comments mainly for Committee Stage but in placing Ireland at the forefront of innovation any measure that reduces costs and makes the process more efficient must be welcomed. I wonder if our cumbersome and expensive process to date in patent application has led to the registering of many patents outside of Europe that might not otherwise have been registered outside. I am struck by the fact that multinational companies operating in Ireland, for instance, are sending in excess of €25 billion out of the country each year in royalties and licence fees. How much of that, if any, is related to the current process? This figure gives a good indication of the size of the market for Ireland alone in the patent industry. It is informative to hear, and it is something I did not know until this morning, that it can cost up to €32,000 to register a patent of which €23,000 is for translation costs alone, which are already redundant by the time the patent is granted protection. The London Agreement elimin- ates that, and that must be welcomed. It is good to see that the number of Irish applications for patents is fairly high, and we hope we can increase that number. This is one step, albeit an important one, in what is part of a suite of measures introduced and supported by this Government to foster, stimulate and encourage innovation here. I commend the Minister of State and his Department for their actions in this area and encourage the Minister him to continue those. I will make a more detailed contribution to the Bill on Committee Stage to which I look forward.

Senator Paschal Mooney: I echo the warm sentiments conveyed to the Minister of State, Deputy Sherlock, and wish him continued success in the important brief he holds. I am also indebted yet again to my friend and colleague, Senator Crown, for raising issues of great rel- evance in the context of this debate. It prompted me to reflect on the earlier comments he made about what can best be described as a shift from Europe to the BRIC countries and to the Far East in terms of innovation. It is relevant in that context that the figure he mentioned of €1.8 billion spent on research and development here gives some hope for the future. I could not help but reflect on a comment made some years ago about the shift in manufacturing, as Senator Crown outlined. For example, Europe no longer manufactures batteries. It seems that batteries have been produced for some decades in the Far East. Why is there not a manufacturing facility in Europe to manufacture batteries? Why should it be shifted to the Far East? That was one of a number of products. We all welcome this important legislation. I could not help but reflect again on the wonderful talent on display last week at the BT Young Scientist of the Year awards. My congratulations not only to those pupils who won awards but also to their teachers who encouraged them because without the teachers mentoring them in many cases there would not have been the results we achieved. The Young Scientist of the Year award is a wonderful development for this country and one to be cherished. When Ryan Tubridy interviewed the two boys who won this year he asked about patents and their reply was interesting. They said they had patented 674 Patents (Amendment) 18 January 2012. Bill 2012: Second Stage their innovation which was to do with algorithms, which will be of help in satellite navigation for space travel and so on. It is a very important innovation. In light of the comments the Minister of State made and the revelations about the high cost of patenting, which is of the order of €36,000, if the young scientists patent their product will they have to pay that? One assumes that the academic institutions pay it. I am not sure what the answer is but it highlights the importance of this legislation. I have a number of questions for the Minister of State. First, does the current position result in a loss of earnings to Ireland because of the complex nature of registering patents? The Minister made the point that innovators are being selective in the countries in which they register their patents. Does that mean that in those countries where they do not register the patents they are open to exploitation by other companies? I could not help but reflect that there has been a number of incidents across history where patents have not been applied for and, as a result, other people gained from the innovator. Senator Crown may know more about this but I believe penicillin has been ascribed to a particular creator but a BBC documentary on that issue proved that a group of people in a hospital in London, led by a very talented doctor, developed the initial positive results on penicillin. He then refused to patent it because he wanted it to be made available to everybody but a major pharmaceutical company has patented it and it continues to own the rights. Second, has there been a loss of patents to Ireland as a result of the current regime in that people have found they have not been able to patent a particular innovative product and as a result it was picked up by some other company in another country? What is the difference between the London Agreement and the proposed EU unitary patent initiative? The Minister of State has already outlined that the introduction of the Bill will mean we will become part of the London agreement which will apply to 37 countries. At the end of his contribution he referred to the ongoing discussions which are leading to a proposed EU unitary patent which would apply to 25 countries. What is the difference in its application? Will the London Agree- ment become redundant as a result of the initiative in Europe? It is a complex area and perhaps I am asking the wrong question but I am curious to know the relationship between the two. The Minister of State also said it is vital that all contracting parties to the European patents convention become a party to the agreement. I presume that is in order to reduce costs rather than because of any other administrative obstacle. This is a vital Bill. As late as yesterday there was a letter in The Irish Times from, I understand, a professor in Trinity College who said there was need for cultural change in Irish society to embrace the sciences, as Senator Crown eloquently put it. Perhaps the Minister of State might comment on that.

Senator David Cullinane: Like previous speakers I welcome the Minister of State to the House and wish him every success with what is a difficult but challenging and exciting portfolio. He recently visited Waterford Institute of Technology. I will discuss the opportunities which exist there in terms of research and development and links with ITs, universities and so on. I fully support one line in the Minister of State’s speech, namely “Providing efficient and affordable access to registering patents is vital to stimulating innovation in Irish enterprises, universities and research students”. I mentioned that the Minister of State was in Waterford. I am not sure if he visited the ecolabs or the TSSG. Both are world-class research and development facilities. The TSSG is the Telecommunications Software and Systems Group and has about 100 staff. It is anchored within Waterford Institute of Technology. It has assisted more than 90 companies operating in Ireland, mainly in Waterford and the south east, and has provided solutions to research and development issues. It has been successful in supporting 675 Patents (Amendment) 18 January 2012. Bill 2012: Second Stage

[Senator David Cullinane.] the establishment of 11 new start-up businesses. Research and development, and linking with universities and local entrepreneurs, is an exciting and good way to create jobs and encourage creativity. People can think outside the box and do what they need to do. I fully support the Bill. The role of intellectual property rights and patents is central to economic growth and job creation because they can be the future drivers of the economy. New ideas, inventions and innovation in existing businesses can lead to greater investment and job creation opportunities and generate profits and tax take. For too long the ideas of our people have been exploited by others. I referred to TSSG and ecolabs — I am sure it is the same across the country — which have provided solutions and come up with knowledge, but unfortunately companies outside Ireland have taken advantage of some of the research that was done. We must protect, as much as we can,much of the research and development that is done here to ensure that whatever job opportunities arise in these areas are maximised for Ireland. We support the Bill as a step in reducing costs to small businesses. However, we are concerned that the Government, in dealing with the issue of IP and patents, is missing the bigger picture. It is facing two questions that must be addressed. How do we create an innovation ecosystem that stimulates new ideas and how can the State and its people benefit from IP and patents? It is very important that not just individuals but the State benefits from patents. I will deal with that in more detail. These are two issues arising that have not been comprehensively addressed by the Government. How do we encourage Irish-owned businesses to develop and register IP and patents and how can we ensure that the State and its people benefit from this work? In a previous conversation on this issue, the Minister of State assured people that the small number of patents, approximately 400, was not a true reflection of innovation here as many more patents were developed by Irish people working in large multinationals located in this State, which may be true. This in itself is not a good thing, as the Minister of State indicated, because it is indicative of the lack of imagination of previous Governments and some State agencies on this issue. These patents and the profits from them do not belong to the people who devised to them. They should also be the property of the people and be exploited not just by multinationals but the State and people. In this State we have invested in education and promoting innovation, yet it appears that the benefits will be accumulated in some areas by multinationals. We do not believe that should be the case. We are, in effect, promoting a form of internal brain drain where the skills and ideas of our people are not directed into developing Irish companies in the global marketplace but servicing the needs of multinationals. What is required is an approach based on developing and promoting Irish-owned companies, and promoting Irish innovation at the global marketplace.

Senator Feargal Quinn: I welcome the Minister of State and the Bill. We have covered a great deal of ground to date. I understand that this is a technical Bill but, as we all know, protecting IP rights is vital to Irish business and I hope this Bill will be a further step in reducing red tape for business in Ireland. I hope it will encourage businesses to file patents by reducing the administrative load, which is one criticism we have heard. The Bill will, it is to be hoped, lead to a situation where Irish businesses will be able to use their patents to protect their businesses much better and across the 25 member states who have signed up. I will touch on a couple more issues briefly regarding innovation and patents. The Minister, Deputy Noonan, recently introduced changes to the research and development scheme to make it more flexible for companies to claim the research and development tax credit, but what 676 Patents (Amendment) 18 January 2012. Bill 2012: Second Stage about allowing companies to claim the credit if they take on new graduates? Surely that is investing for the future too and would encourage them to employ these sorts of people. We all agree that ongoing education while at work is critical to future growth. Therefore, to spur greater workforce training and boost productivity we should allow training employees to be claimed as research and development. Also, according to one consultancy firm, Leyton, other things need to be addressed. The current situation is that the amount of the research and development tax credit that can be received by way of cash refund is restricted to the greater of the payroll liabilities of the company in the claim period or the company’s total corporation tax liabilities for the previous ten years. The cash refund is received in three instalments over a 33 month period. The problem is that many start-up companies can be seriously disadvantaged by this restriction. It seems a long period to wait and the company could go out of business. If the Government is serious about patents, innovation and start-ups, it should look at this issue as a matter of urgency as it is a very long period to wait to receive the tax benefit for an investment they are required to make now. We could perhaps create more jobs if this provision was changed. Could the Minister look at providing more tax relief on royalties from various other areas? Should we allow more tax credits for collaborative research? The company I ran for many years had a very successful collaboration with a Trinity College start-up company called Iden- tiGEN. Such an approach is often more productive than a company going it alone. The company was developed to do DNA testing of food and other products in particular. Other countries, including Japan, Hungary, Spain, Denmark and the UK provide companies with more generous tax incentives for collaborative research and development. I am not just talking about work being done alone but rather collaborative work. According to Cathal Lane, patent and trademark attorney with Tomkins:

A lot of Irish people think of Edison or Bell when they think about inventors; they do not see their friend, the engineer, as one. People seem to think an invention is a whole new creation when in reality innovation is often really about small and gradual changes.

How can we help to change this attitude? There must be a much greater effort and an advertising campaign, for example, to encourage small and medium enterprises, SMEs, to file patents in Ireland, especially given the legislation before us today. Many small businesses simply do not understand the system and may be forced to turn to a consultancy firm which would be extremely expensive, and even more so for a company at the start-up stage. Could we have a training programme for small businesses on patents? What is the Patents Office doing in this regard? Can local enterprise centres tap Government resources to educate people in SMEs? Perhaps patents could be taught at school as part of a new entrepreneurship programme. Could we have a move towards more on-line filing of tax patents? We need real improvements in those areas. Will the Minister of State comment on the reports that €19 billion of Irish pharmaceutical exports may be affected by the expiration of patents on a number of blockbuster medicines produced here? Senator Crown raised that issue on the Order of Business. Why are more patents issued to Scottish universities than to any other nation in the world, as measured per head? Why is Ireland not in that position? I believe some of the changes mentioned today, along with others, could help us. I hope this Bill will help us towards our goal. I support the Bill but would love to see changes and examples of enthusiasm to recognise what we can achieve with patents. 677 Patents (Amendment) 18 January 2012. Bill 2012: Second Stage

Minister of State at the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation (Deputy Sean Sherlock): I thank Senators for their great comments. A number of issues have been raised, all of which indirectly relate to the legislation but are not pertinent to today’s process. Generally, if the starting point for innovation is Government policy interacting with State agencies, there is a very clear sense of purpose in ensuring we do not rest on our laurels. The recommendations of the innovation task force are being dealt with in an ongoing process, with one recommendation relating to tax credits. That was addressed in the recent budget and I will deal with that in further detail. I thank Senators for their considered contributions, which raise issues that must be taken on board by the Government. A patent is not the only measure of innovation but rather one of a number. The clear purpose of this legislation is to reduce that burden and put in place a European system, where Ireland will play a part and Irish SMEs and other stakeholders can ensure administrative and legal costs are reduced as a result. In its complementary policy, the Government is going through a research prioritisation exercise which seeks to build upon between 12 and 14 core themes or areas of research on which we must concentrate in order to interact with the State agencies which Senator Crown spoke of, including Science Foundation Ireland, Enterprise Ireland, academic institutions and multinational companies. In doing this we try to focus the amount of money spent by the State on research in a way that ensures the basic research requirements and a more applied approach that can drive more economic benefits by creating as many jobs as possible. Complementary to that is a patents process which ensures that where a citizen, researcher or SME wants to invest in a new patent system, the European system will ensure the burden is not heavy in cost. The process should be as simple as possible. An interesting point was made by Senator Mooney regarding the young scientists’ exhibition. When two people from a school in Dublin or elsewhere can develop algorithms at such a stage in their lives, we must be bowled over by the depth of their imagination and creativity as well as the ecosystem which supports them through their local school. Successive governments have been in this apolitical space and no specific party owns it. As a State we want to ensure the Irish Patents Office — representatives of which attended the exhibition — can provide people with the advice they need. When I attended its stand at the young scientists’ exhibition, there were a phenomenal number of interactions with students. The €32,000 figure is average or indicative but we want to ensure we get to a stage where people like the students in question plug into the idea that there is a process for their innovation which is not cumbersome. Listening to the radio interviews, the people in question were already plugged into the space of patenting their work.

Senator Paschal Mooney: They were. That is the amazing fact.

Deputy Sean Sherlock: That culture is changing in students, who are becoming more aware of the potential. It is not for the State to own all the intellectual property deriving from the research in which it invests. That is not a good direction to take and we do not want to create a disincentive for individual researchers or companies with an investment in labs, for example. They should not have to give intellectual property back to the State and we should foster the creation of such intellectual property or patents. The Forfás report compiled for the office of science and technology examined the level of support for research and development across all Departments, indicating that total State support for research and development increased from €756 million in 2005 to €941 million in 2008. The slowdown in the economy was evident, with a slight decline in 2009, with total expenditure 678 Patents (Amendment) 18 January 2012. Bill 2012: Second Stage in 2010 of €872 million. My Department has a 2012 budget which will provide €518 million in capital grants this year, which is an increase on 2011. With regard to promotion of research and development, Science Foundation Ireland has a pivotal role in enhancing Ireland’s human capital in strategic areas of scientific endeavours relevant to the future competitiveness of Irish industry and enterprise. That body has up to 3,000 researchers in 28 centres throughout the State, with up to 500 industry collaborations. They generate intellectual property, although some is generated within the multinational sector through the existing collaborations. Multinational companies are increasingly coming here not just because of the corporate tax rate but also because of a very highly evolved research and development facility that exists within this country. The research and development tax credit scheme provides for a tax credit of 25% of the incremental expenditure incurred by a company in an accounting period on research and development activities. That can be off-set against a company’s corporation tax liability. I note the points made by Senator Quinn. Perhaps we could engage further to see 1o’clock whether there are possibilities in terms of graduates. The research and development tax scheme was enhanced in budget 2012, as promised in the programme for Government. A greater proportion of the total spend on research and development is now eligible to be written off by including without restriction the first €100,000 spent for the purposes of availing of the credit. In addition, businesses that outsourced research and development activities to universities or other institutions will be subject to fewer limits in availing of the tax credit — a measure designed with SMEs in mind. Companies will also have the option to use a portion of the research and development tax credit to assist in the employment of key employees to drive their research and development agenda. Senator Gilroy made a point on the registration of patents here, in the European Union and in Europe in general. Irish companies marketing their products strategically choose to apply for a European patent, an international application by means of the Patent Cooperation Treaty or directly to the country to which they want to export. Increases in the number of filings abroad indicate that export-orientated Irish companies are widening their market reach, expanding into new international markets, opening up new businesses and becoming more competitive and innovative. Direct European patent filings and international filings under the Patent Cooperative Treaty and by Irish resident companies rose from 667 in 2008 to 687 in 2010, an increase of a meagre 3%, but it is an increase. Applications for UK patents from Irish- resident companies filed directly to the UK Intellectual Property Office rose from 278 in 2008 to 289 in 2010, an increase of 3.9%. Applications for US patents filed by Irish resident companies increased from 740 in 2008 to 796 in 2010, an increase of 7.5%. That trend, where Irish- resident companies are filing directly for US patents, is due to the low cost of acquiring a US patent compared to the European patents system. I hope that answers the point adequately.

Senator John Gilroy: Yes. I thank the Minister of State for clarifying the matter.

Deputy Sean Sherlock: On the unitary patent protection and the London agreement; they are not mutually exclusive. The purpose is that they would be complementary. By instigating a unitary patents system one would hope to drive down further the cost of implementing patents to reduce the cost of registration further and to benefit from an estimated €50 million in savings. It is basically a mechanism by which one would have a wider European scope. The aim is the same in that it complements the London agreement. I hope that clarifies the position. If it does not I am happy to return to the matter on the next Stage.

Senator Paschal Mooney: Yes. I thank the Minister of State. 679 Irish Language: 18 January 2012. Statements

Deputy Sean Sherlock: Senator Crown summed up the legislation very well when he referred to reducing obstruction, greasing the wheels of innovation and improving society. That is key to what we are doing. It is part of that process. While the legislation is technical it speaks to the attempts by the Government to increase our competitive advantage, ramp up research and development incentives, as we did in the budget, and ensure that we can mine more of the intellectual property that exists within our research facilities and institutions, and to encourage the SME sector to ensure it can get on board as well in terms of beginning to think more laterally about whether it wants to engage in research and development and to provide incentives to that end. I hope I have addressed the points in general. If I have not, I am happy to come back to any points that are outstanding at a later Stage.

Senator Paschal Mooney: What about the question of any loss of potential income?

Deputy Sean Sherlock: There is some loss of income. The Senator should forgive me for not responding to the question. The number of applications for patent protection received in 2010 was 792. There was a decrease of 18% from 2009. A total of 243 patents were granted in 2010, a decrease of 26% compared to 2009. A loss of revenue arises in terms of fees for translations in the context of this country becoming a party to the agreement. As part of the validation process an applicant must lodge a translation for a patent granted in French or German in the office within six months of grant of patent together with a fee of €35. In 2010 that came to €33,215. It is worth noting that the figure has been steadily decreasing. In 2006 it stood at €62,000. The crucial point is not necessarily the loss of revenue to the State but the increase in the accessibility of the system to people who are innovating within the system.

Question put and agreed to.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

Senator Maurice Cummins: On Wednesday, 25 January 2012.

Sitting suspended at 1.10 p.m. and resumed at 2 p.m.

Irish Language: Statements An Cathaoirleach: I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy McGinley, to the House.

Minister of State at the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht (Deputy Dinny McGinley): Tááthas orm a bheith anseo agus deis agam a bheith rannpháirteach sa díospóire- acht seo ar an Ghaeilge. Tá mé cinnte go mbeidh díospóireacht leathan bhríomhar againn faoi na bearta éagsúla atá idir lámha faoi láthair chun tacú le cur chun cinn na Gaeilge, sa Straitéis 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge ach go háirithe. Mar atá ráite roimhe seo, is ábhar misnigh agus dóchais é an tacaíocht traspháirtí atá tugtha d’aidhmeanna agus do spriocanna na straitéise 20 bliain. Sula ndéanaim cur síos ar na céimeanna éagsúla atá sa treis faoi láthair maidir le forfheidhmiú na Straitéise 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge, measaim go mbeadh sé tairbheach léargas gairid a thabhairt ar na cláir thacaíochta agus na gníomhaíochtaíéagsúla atá ar siúlagmo Roinn i láthair na huaire chun cuidiú le buanú agus le neartú na Gaeilge sa Ghaeltacht agus go deimhin, ar fud na tíre, Thuaidh agus Theas. Ní miste a mheabhrú go bhfuil na cláir agus na gníomhaíochtaí seo fite fuaite go dlúth leis an Straitéis 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge, a bhfuil sé mar phríomhaidhm aici líon na gcainteoirí Gaeilge a mhéadú go substaintiúil ar bhonn céímni- the sna blianta amach romhainn. 680 Irish Language: 18 January 2012. Statements

In ainneoin go bhfuil acmhainní an Stáit faoi bhrú mór faoi láthair agus go raibh cinntí crua le tógáil dá réir ag an Rialtas maidir le dáileadh na n-acmhainní sin sa cháinaisnéis a cuireadh iláthair na Dálaimí na Nollag 2011, tá os cionn €60 milliún san iomlán le caitheamh ag mo Roinn in 2012 ar ghnóthaí Gaeilge, Gaeltachta agus oileán, lena n-áirítear an Foras Teanga. Ní dóigh liom go bhféadfadh aon duine a mhaíomh gur suim shuarach airgid í seo agus geillea- gar na tíre sa riocht ina bhfuil sé san am i láthair. Is fúinne atá sé a chinntiú go gcaithfear an maoiniú seo ar bhealach straitéiseach a rachaidh chun sochair don phobal atá ag brath air. Tá leithdháileadh os cionn €46 milliún beartaithe faoin gclár Gaeilge, Gaeltachta agus oileánde mo Roinn don bhliain 2012, lena n-áirítear os cionn €37 milliún in airgead reatha agus beagnach €9 milliún in airgead caipitil. Chomh maith leis sin, tá leithdháileadh os cionn €15.4 milliún beartaithe don Fhoras Teanga don bhliain 2012 faoin gclár Thuaidh Theas de mo Roinn. Ar ndóigh, ní miste a rá go bhfuil an buiséad iomlán don Fhoras Teanga do 2012 le faomhadh ag an gComhairle Aireachta Thuaidh Theas. Ní thógann na fígiúirí seo san áireamh an caiteachas a dhéantar i réímsí eile ar nóscúrsaí oideachais agus cúrsaí craolacháin, gan trácht ar raon leathan seirbhísí eile a chuireann comhlachtaí poiblí ar fáil chun freastal ar dhaoine ar mian leo a ngnó adhéanamh leis an Stát i nGaeilge. Má thógann muid cúrsaí oideachais amháin mar shampla, is féidir os cionn €500 milliún de chaiteachas na Roinne Oideachais agus Scileanna a áireamh mar chaiteachas a dhéantar ar an Ghaeilge. Mar a dúirt mé,tá cur i bhfeidhm na Straitéise 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge fite go dlúth leis an obair atá idir lámha ag mo Roinn. Os rud é go bhfuil os cionn €9 milliún, idir maoiniú caipitil agus reatha, curtha ar fáil do na scéimeanna tacaíochta Gaeltachta don bhliain 2012, beidh mo Roinn in ann dul chun cinn suntasach a dhéanamh maidir le cur i bhfeidhm na straitéise sa Ghaeltacht. Ar an taobh reatha, is í scéim na bhfoghlaimeoirí Gaeilge an scéim teanga-lárnaithe is tábhachtaí atá ag mo Roinn. Is cúis sásaimh ar leith dom é nach mbeidh aon laghdú i mbliana ar an deontas a íoctar leis na teaghlaigh sa Ghaeltacht a choinníonn na scoláirí ar iostas ina gcuid tithe faoin scéim seo. Laghdaíodh an deontas do na mná tí le dhá bhliain anuas agus tá áthas orm go gcoinneofar an cúnamh fíor-thábhachtach seo ag an leibhéal céanna i mbliana. Mar a luaigh mé roimhe seo, is gá breathnú anois ar na bealaí ina bhféadfaí an scéim a threisiú tuilleadh le go mbainfear an tairbhe is fearr aisti. Chuige sin, tá féidearthachtaíéagsúla á scrúdú ag oifigigh mo Roinne i gcomhar le Comhchoiste na gColáistí Samhhraidh, Concos, faoi láthair. Ag eascairt ón chur chuige seo, tá súil agam go mbeifear in ann córas níos éifeachtaí a chur i bhfeidhm a thacóidh le hinmharthanacht na gColáistí Gaeilge sa todhchaí agus a chinnteoidh luach ar airgead don Stát. Chomh maith leis seo, tá córas nua le tacú go praiticiúil le teaghlaigh Ghaeltachta atá ag tógáil a gclainne trí Ghaeilge, nó go deimhin a dteastaíonn uathu é sin a dhéanamh, á scrúdú againn faoi láthair. Tá an Roinn ag éisteacht go cúramach le moltaí agus le tuairimí phobal na Gaeltachta faoin ábhar seo agus tá súil agam a bheith in ann bearta cuí afhógairt go han-luath. Ar an taobh caipitil, beidh mo Roinn ag díriú ar thacaíocht a thabhairt do thógáil agus do chuíchóiriú ionaid phobalbhunaithe agus teanga-lárnaithe sa Ghaeltacht chun tacú le cur i bhfeidhm na straitéise ar an talamh. Maidir leis na scéimeanna tacaíochta Gaeilge atá ag feidhmiú taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht, tááthas orm go bhfuil soláthar os cionn €6 mhilliún curtha ar fáil in airgead reatha agus caipitil don bhliain 2012. Ciallaíonn an soláthar seo go mbeidh mo Roinn in ann dúshraith mhaith a chur faoi fheidhmiú na straitéise 20 bliain taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht. Beidh mo Roinn in ann leanúint uirthi ag tabhairt tacaíochta don chiste tríú leibhéal in Éirinn agus thar lear agus d’eagraíochtaíéagsúla a chuireann an Ghaeilge chun cinn taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht. O thaobh cúrsaí caipitil de, tááthas orm go raibh ar chumas mo Roinne deontas €300,000 a 681 Irish Language: 18 January 2012. Statements

[Deputy Dinny McGinley.] cheadú anuraidh chun athchóiriú riachtanach a dhéanamh thar thréimhse dhá bhliain ar amhar- clann náisiúnta na Gaeilge — An Taibhdhearc i gcathair na Gaillimhe. Maidir leis na háisíneachtaí a thagann faoi scáth mo Roinne, creidim go mbeidh soláthar dóthanach acu in 2012 chun a gcuid feidhmeanna reachtúla a chur i gcrích. As an soláthar iomlán de bheagnach €19 milliúnatá curtha ar fáil d’Údarás na Gaeltachta ónStátchiste in 2012, tá beagnach €6 milliún curtha ar fáil mar bhuiséad caipitil. Chomh maith leis an tsuim seo, tuigim ón údarás go mbeidh tuairim is €5 milliúnarfáil dóófhoinsí eile, ar a n-áirítear díol sócmhainní agus aisíocaíochtaí deontas. San iomlán mar sin, beidh buiséad caipitil de thuairim is €11 milliúnaganúdarás i mbliana chun tacú le cruthú agus le caomhnú fostaíochta sa Ghaeltacht. Cinntíonn soláthar an Státchiste gur féidir leis an údarás leanúint orthu ag mealladh infheistíochta chun na Gaeltachta, ag tacú le bunú agus le buanú post sa Ghaeltacht agus ag tabhairt cúnaimh do phobail Ghaeltachta maidir le tograí teanga-lárnaithe. Tá mise sásta go mbeidh ar chumas an údaráis a chuid feidhmeanna reachtúla a chomhlíonadh go héifeachtach leis an leibhéal maoinithe seo. Tuigtear dom go bhfuil torthaí an údaráis don bhliain 2011 le fógairt níos deireanaí an mhí seo. Ag deireadh na bliana 2010, bhí 7,074 duine fostaithe go lánaimseartha i gcliantchuide- achtaí de chuid an údaráis. Cé gur laghdúésin ar na blianta roimhe sin, is tuar dóchais é gur cruthaíodh 704 post úr in 2010 i gcliantchuideachtaí de chuid an údaráis. Taispeánann fígiúirí fostaíochta an údaráis gur éirigh go maith le comhlachtaí atá ag plé le heaspórtáil, i gcomhréir leis an treocht náisiúnta. Chomh maith leis na cláir thacaíochta atá ag an údarásféin, rachaidh gnéithe den tionscnamh post a d’fhógair an Rialtas anuraidh chun leasa a chuid gníomhaíochtaí. Beidh suim iomlán de os cionn €15.4 milliún á chur ar fáil ag mo Roinn don Fhoras Teanga in 2012. Ní miste a nótáil gurb í an Chomhairle Aireachta Thuaidh Theas a dhéanfaidh buiséad iomlán an Fhorais Teanga do 2012 a fhaomhadh. Cuirfidh an tsuim seo, mar aon leis an airgead cómhaoinithe ón Roinn Cultúir, Ealaíon agus Fóillíochta ó thuaidh, ar chumas áisíneachtaí an Fhorais Teanga, is iad sin Foras na Gaeilge agus Gníomhaireacht na hUltaise, leanúint leis an obair thábhachtach atá ar bun acu ag tabhairt tacaíochta don oidhreacht chultúrtha, luachmhar atá againn, Thuaidh agus Theas. Mar atá a fhios agaibh, tá Foras na Gaeilge i mbun athbhreithnithe le tamall anuas maidir le córas nua maoinithe a chur i bhfeidhm do na heagraíochtaí deonacha Gaeilge. Ag an gcruinniú den Chomhairle Aireachta Thuaidh-Theas ar 12 Deireadh Fómhair 2011, nótáladh an dul chun cinn atá déanta ag Foras na Gaeilge go dtí seo i ndáil le punann dréacht-scéimeanna a ullmhú don tsamhail mhaoinithe iomaíoch nua seo, a bhfuil sé mar sprioc aici tairbhí suntasacha luach ar airgead a bhaint amach agus dualgais reachtúla Fhoras na Gaeilge a chomhlíonadh go héifeachtach. larradh ar Fhoras na Gaeilge roinnt céime- anna a thógáil chun an próiseas athbhreithnithe a thabhairt chun cinn agus i gcomhréir le cinneadh na Comhairle Aireachta Thuaidh-Theas, tuigim go bhfuil tús curtha ag Foras na Gaeilge leis an phróiseas comhairliúcháin phoiblíón tseachtain seo caite, a mhairfidh go dtí 2 Aibreán 2012. Tá súil agam go ndéanfar dul chun cinn suntasach maidir leis an ábhar seo sna míonna amach romhainn agus go mbeidh torthaí fónta ar an phróiseas a rachaidh chun leasa na Gaeilge agus na hearnála deonaí Gaeilge araon. Maidir le hOifig an Choimisinéara Teanga, ní miste a rá go bhfuil soláthar de €650,000 curtha ar fáil don oifig do 2012. Tá mé muiníneach go mbeidh Oifig an Choimisinéara Teanga in ann acúraimí reachtúla a chomhlíonadh laistigh den soláthar sin. Ba mhaith liom an deis seo a thapú le cúpla focal a rá maidir leis an athbhreithniú ar an Acht Teanga agus an próiseas comhairliúcháin phoiblí atá faoi lánseol ag mo Roinn i láthair na huaire. Tá sé mar aidhm ag an phróiseas réimse leathan tuairimí afháil ó iliomad foinsí, ina measc ranna Stáit, comhlachtaí poiblí, eagraíochtaí agus daoine aonaracha maidir le leasuithe a cheaptar a d’fhéadfadh dul 682 Irish Language: 18 January 2012. Statements chun sochar an Achta sa todhchaí. Eascraíonn an t-athbhreithniú ar an Acht go díreach as gealltanas a tugadh i gclár an Rialtais, a deireann:

Déanfaimid athbhreithniú ar Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla chun a chinntiú go mbainfear an leas is fearr as caiteachas ar an teanga chun an teanga a fhorbairt agus chun a chinntiú go bhforchuirtear dualgais go cuí de réir éilimh ó shaoránaigh.

Leis an gcúlra seo, is iad aidhmeanna an athbhreithnithe a chinntiú gur meicníocht éifeachtach é Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla a thacaíonn le forbairt na Gaeilge ar bhealach atáéifeachtach agus éifeachtúil ó thaobh costais de agus go bhfuil na dualgais a eascraíonn ón Acht cuí chun soláthar sásúil seirbhísí trí Ghaeilge ag comhlachtaí poiblí a chinntiú,deréir an éilimh atá orthu ón bpobal. Ní miste dom tagairt a dhéanamh don chinneadh atá tógtha ag an Rialtas go ndéanfar feidhmeanna Oifig an Choimisinéara Teanga a chónascadh le hOifig an Ombudsman. De réir an chinnidh Rialtais seo, tá an beart seo le cur i gcrích i gcomhthéacs an athbhreithnithe ar an Acht. Ní mór a threisiú nach dúnadh Oifig an Choimisinéara Teanga atá i gceist leis an gcinneadh, ach cónascadh le hOifig an Ombudsman. Go dtí seo, tá tuairim is 300 suirbhé agus os cionn 30 aighneacht faighte ag mo Roinn faoin bpróiseas comhairliúcháin. Fáiltíonn muid roimh an spéis atá léirithe sa phróiseas go dtí seo. Ar ndóigh, tá muid ag súil go mbeidh líon níos airde suirbhéanna agus aighneachtaí faighte faoin spriocdháta den 31 Eanáir. Cuireann séáthas orm agus tugann sé dóchas dom go bhfuil an oiread sin suirbhéanna — breis is 300 — tagtha isteach agus coicís eile le dul. Ba mhaith liom labhairt faoi na hoileáin, a bhfuil formhór an daonra iontu sa Ghaeltacht. Cuirfear soláthar os cionn €6.8 milliúnarfáil do na hoileáin in 2012, lena n-áirítear €5.9 milliún ar an taobh reatha. Cinnteoidh an soláthar méadaithe reatha go mbeidh sé d’acmhainn ag an Roinn Ealaíon, Oidhreachta agus Gaeltachta leanúint leis an maoiniú do na seirbhísí riachtana- cha iompair do na hoileáin a bhfuil cónaí buan orthu. Tá sé an-thábhachtach go ndéanfaimid gach cosaint ar na seirbhísí sin. Measaim go dtugann an méid seo léargas ar an chlár oibre cuimsitheach atá ar bun ag mo Roinn i láthair na huaire i dtaca leis an chaoi a gcaithfear leis an soláthar airgid atá curtha ar fáil i Meastacháin 2012 chun tacaíochtaí fiúntacha chur ar fáil don Ghaeilge agus don Ghaeltacht. Ba mhaith liom labhairt go sonrach faoin méid atá ar siúl maidir le cur i bhfeidhm na straité- ise 20 bliain don Ghaeilge. Ag cruinniú Rialtais den 31 Bealtaine 2011, cinneadh gur mar seo a leanas a bheidh na struchtúir fhorfheidhmithe faoin straitéis 20 bliain. Aontaíodh go bhfan- faidh an lár-fhreagracht maidir le gnóthaí Gaeilge laistigh agus lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht araon ar mo Roinn; go mbeidh Údarás na Gaeltachta freagrach as cur i bhfeidhm na straitéise sa Ghaeltacht; go mbeidh mo Roinn i gcomhpháirtíocht le páirtnéiríábhartha Stáit freagrach as cur i bhfeidhm na straitéise lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht; go leanfaidh Foras na Gaeilge ag feidhmiú mar áisíneacht teanga Thuaidh-Theas; agus go mbreathnófar ar na féidearthachtaí maidir le Foras na Gaeilge a bheith ag seachadadh eilimintíáirithe den straitéis ar bhonn comhaontaithe le mo Roinn. Chun feidhm a thabhairt do chinntí polasaí an Rialtais de réir mar is cuí,tá na cinn don Bhille Gaeltachta dréachtaithe ag mo Roinn. Táthar ag súil na dréacht-chinn a chur faoi bhráid an Rialtais go luath sa chaoi is go bhfoilseofar an Bille Gaeltachta i mbliana i gcomhréir le clár reachtaíochta an Rialtais. Mar atá curtha in iúl agam cheana, déanfar foráil faoin Bhille Gael- tachta do shainmhíniú reachtúil nua ar an Ghaeltacht a bheidh bunaithe feasta ar chritéir theangeolaíocha le hais an tsainmhínithe mar a sheasann sé faoi láthair. Déanfar forálacha faoin Bhille Gaeltachta fosta maidir le leasuithe a dhéanamh ar struchtúir agus ar mhodh ceaptha bhord Údarás na Gaeltachta. 683 Irish Language: 18 January 2012. Statements

[Deputy Dinny McGinley.]

Tá obair thábhachtach maidir le cur i bhfeidhm eilimintíéagsúla den straitéis ar siúlagan aonad straitéise i mo Roinn féin agus ag na trí ghrúpa oibre atá feidhmiú faoina scáth. Tá grúpa oibre idir oifigigh i mo Roinn agus an Roinn Oideachais agus Scileanna ag díriú ar chur i bhfeidhm na straitéiseiréimse gnímh an oideachais, ag tógáil san áireamh na laincisí ar acmhainní iláthair na huaire. Tá grúpa oibre idir oifigigh i mo Roinn, in Údarás na Gaeltachta agus i bhForas na Gaeilge dírithe ar idirdhealú adhéanamh idir na feidhmeanna ar leith atáá gcomhlíonadh ag na heagraíochtaí sin sa chaoi is gur féidir a chinntiú go mbeidh cur chuige éifeachtach ann agus go mbeidh an luach is fearr ar airgead ag an Státchiste. Tá grúpa oibre idir oifigigh i mo Roinn, an Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe agus an Roinn Post, Fiontair agus Nuálaíochta dírithe ar na bealaí is éifeachtaí chun infheistíocht fíontraíochta a chinntiú don Ghaeltacht. Chomh maith leis seo, tá ullmhú plean forfheidhmithe sonrach don straitéis don tréimhse trí bliana amach romhainn idir lámha ag an aonad straitéise. Tógfaidh an plean don tréimhse 2012-14 ar an bplean forfheidhmithe do 2011 a d’fhoilsigh mo Roinn anuraidh. Díreoidh an plean úrarnagníomhaíochtaí atá indéanta sa tréimhse sin ag mo Roinn i gcomhairle le páirtithe leasmhara eile sa Státchóras. Is cuid iontach tábhachtach dár n-oidhreacht í an Ghaeilge. Tá an Rialtas seo tiomanta dá cur chun cinn ar gach bealach ar féidir linn. In ainneoin na ndeacrachtaí ar fad a bhaineann le cosaint chuí a thabhairt do mhionteanga a mhaireann taobh le taobh le mórtheanga domhanda agus in ainneoin na ndúshlán eacnamaíoch a bhfuilimid ag dul i ngleic leo, tá mise iontach dóchasach faoin Ghaeilge agus faoin Ghaeltacht sa todhchaí.Tá acmhainní substaintiúla á gcur ar fáil ag an Rialtas don Ghaeilge ar bhonn leanúnach trí mo Roinn agus Ranna agus comhlachtaí poiblí eile. Tá dúshraith láidir againn le tógáil uirthi leis an straitéis 20 bliain. Tá céimeanna dearfacha tógtha cheana féin againn chun tús a chur le feidhmiú na straitéise sin. Thar rud ar bith eile, creidim gur cúis dóchais ar leith dúinn ar fad an pobal beo bríomhar atá báúil agus dílis don Ghaeilge agus don Ghaeltacht ó cheann ceann na tíre.

Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú: Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. Is beag duine a thuigeann tábhacht, stádas agus riachtanais na Gaeilge níos mó ná an Aire Stáit. Bhí sé lárnach san obair a bhain le forbairt an straitéis 20 bliain don Ghailge. Bhíomar uilig thar a bheith mórálach as an straitéis céanna. Is dócha gurb í an tábhacht is mó a bhain leis an straitéis ná go rabhamar ar fad aontaithe faoi. Bhí sé thar a bheith tábhachtach go raibh an Dáil agus an Seanad ar aon fhocal maidir leis. Bhí sé soiléir go raibh na heagrais Gaeilge thar a bheith sásta leis freisin. Ceann de na cúiseanna a bhain le sin ná go raibh próiseas comharliúcháin ann nuair a tháinig na heagrais isteach os comhair coiste an Oireachtais. Bhí muintir na Gaeltachta thar a bheith sásta freisin, mar — mar is eol don Aire Stáit mar bhí sé ann — bhíócáid sa Ghaeltacht agus bhí seans ag na heagrais Gaeltachta teacht isteach agus a dtuairimí a nochtadh chomh maith. Nuair a tháinig an cáipéis deireannach amach, bhí sé thar a bheith sásúil go raibh gach dream in ann é féin a aithint sa straitéis féin. Ceann de na rudaí is tábhachtaí a tharla ó thaobh na Gaeilge de le fada an lá ná an Straitéis 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge. Bhí an-chuid tuairimí ag dul timpeall maidir le cur chun cinn na Gaeilge, bhí an-chuid trialacha déanta agus an-obair déanta ag an-chuid gníomhaireachtaí, ach an tábhacht a bhain leis an straitéis ná gur tháinig gach rud le chéile, b’fhéidir don chéad uair riamh ó bunaíodh an Stát. Tá sin aitheanta. Fiú san obair atá déanta ag an Rialtas go dtí seo agus sa chlár oibre atá leagtha amach, tá sé soiléir go bhfuil an Rialtas ag díriú ar tábhacht na straitéise agus an modus operandi ba chóir a bheith ann chun í a chur i gcrích. Sin an dea scéal. Dea scéal eile ná an dea thoil atá i measc an phobail maidir leis an Ghaeilge. Is féidir liomsa féachaint siar ar na seascaidí agus go mórmhór na seachtóidí nuair a raibh naimhdeas le tabhairt faoi deara maidir leis an Ghaeilge. Ach in aon suirbhé atá déanta le cúpla bliain anuas, 684 Irish Language: 18 January 2012. Statements tá sé soiléir go bhfuil an pobal taobh thiar den Ghaeilge. Tá an-chuid cúiseanna le sin, ach ceann dóibh ná an taithí atá againn san Eoraip — go dtugann muid faoi deara an stádas atá ag gach teanga i ngach tír eile. Ón taithí sin, tá muidne tar éis aitheantas a thabhairt don Ghaeilge freisin. Aontaím leis an Aire Stáit go bhfuil roinnt mhaith airgid caite ar chur chun cinn na Gaeilge. Ní airgead beag atá caite, ach a mhalairt. Ag an am céanna, tá tábhacht níos mó ná tábhacht teanga leis an Ghaeilge. Tá féiniúlacht náisiúnta agus mórtas cine i gceist. Nuair a bhíonn muid bródúil asainn féin, cabhraíonn sin leis an eacnamaíocht freisin. Chomh maith le sin, luadh le déanaí gur ceann de na rudaí ar chóir dúinn díriú ná turasóireacht cultúrtha, cultural tourism. Baineann an Ghaeilge le sin freisin. Tháinig seo chun tosaigh go mór sa phróiseas chomharliú- cháin a bhí againn maidir leis an straitéis óÚdarás na Gaeltachta agus ó dreamanna eile. Bhíodar in ann a thaispeáint go raibh ó thaobh eacnamaíochta de ag baint leis an Ghaeilge toisc go bhfuil suim ag lucht na cruinne i gcultúr i gcoitinne. Tá rudaí aírithe tar éis teacht chun tosaigh óndíospóireacht a bhí ann le déanaí, agus luaigh an tAire stáit beagnach gach ceann dóibh sin sa ráiteas a thug sé inniu. Ceann amháin de na rudaí seo ná na heagrais Gaeilge. Tuigeann muid go léir an tábhacht a bhaineann leis na heagrais Gaeilge. Tá siad ar an talamh agus beidh muid ag braith go mór orthu chun an straitéis a chur i bhfeidhm. Tááthas orm go bhfuil próiseas comhairliúcháin i gceist, ach tá stair an-mhór ag baint le cuid de na heagrais ar a bhfuil mé ag caint. Tóg mar shampla Conradh na Gaeilge atá ann ó 1893 agus an bhaint a bhí ag an eagras le saoirse na hÉíreann. Tá stair ag baint leis na heagrais eile freisin. Ba mhaith liom rud a mholadh don Aire Stáit gur féidir leis smaoineamh a dhéanamh air. Chomh maith leis an próiseas comhairliú- cháin atá anniláthair na huaire, an bhfuil aon seans ann go bhféadfadh muid teacht ar ais chuig an coiste Oireachtais mar a dhein muid leis an straitéis? An bhféadfadh muid cuireadh a thabhairt do na heagrais teacht isteach ansin agus a dtuairimí a chur os ár gcomhair? Ceapaim go gcabhródh seo go mór leis an díospóireacht. Tá súil agam agus táim lán cinnte go mbeadh suim mhór ag na heagrais a bheith páirteach ann. Bhí béim chomh maith á chur ar cheist oideachais agus tá seo an-tábhachtach. Táimid ag braith go mór ar na scoileanna lán-Ghaeilge, go mórmhór na scoileanna sa Ghaeltacht. Bhí mé ag éisteacht le cuid de na urlabhraithe a bhain leo siúd agus cheap mé go raibh siad an- phraiticiúil maidir leis na pointí abhíádhéanamh acu. Tuigim go mb’fhéidir go mbaineann seo leis an Roinn Oideachais agus Scileanna, ach seo seans dúinn, anois nuair atá an dá Roinn i gceist, iad a thabhairt le céile maidir leis an straitéis chun caint le chéile. Táim tar éis a bheith ag éisteacht leis an Aire Oideachais agus Scileanna, an Teachta Ruairí Quinn, agus de réir mar a thuigim tá sé ag déanamh athbhreithnithe ar chuid de na rudaí abhí i gceist leis na scoileanna. An féidir linn a chinntiú go mbeidh na scoileanna lán-Ghaeilge go bhfuil trioblóid acu agus na scoileanna Gaeltachta páirteach san athbhreithniú sin? Bheadh na daoine a bhaineann leis na scoileanna sin an-bhuíoch don Aire Stáit másféidir é sinadhéanamh. Bhí an-áthas orm a fheiceáil go mbeidh ról faoi leith ag Údarás na Gaeltachta maidir le cur i gcrích na straitéise. Ach de réir mar a thuigim, i láthair na huaire nílpríomh fheidhmeannach ag an údarás. Tá sé tábhachtach go mbeadh príomh fheidhmeannach ann. Tá roinnt mhaith airgid ag an údarás agus tá obair iontach á dhéanamh aige. Thaispeáin an Rialtas an muinín atá aige as an údarás sna tagairtí iráiteas an Aire stáit. Tá príomh fheidhmeannach thar a bheith tábhachtach. Maisir le Coimisinéir na Teanga, atá luaite sa ráiteas, de réir mar a thuigim tá conradh fostaíochta ag an gcoimisinéir i láthair na huaire, suas chomh fada le 2016 ag obair mar oifig neamhspleách. An ionann é sin agus a rá nach mbeidh aon athrú ar stádas an choimisinéara roimh 2016? Táim beagáinín buartha i dtaobh an cónascadh atáádhéanamh. B’fhéídir go 685 Irish Language: 18 January 2012. Statements

[Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú.] mbeidh an tAire Stáit sin míniú níos fearr a thabhairt dúinn ar sin. Ceann de na rudaí is tábhachtaí a bhain leis an oifig ná an neamhspleáchas. An féidir linn a bheith cinnte go mbeidh neamhspleáchas fós ag baint leis? Nílmé ró-chinnte go mbeidh aon sábhailt airgid ag baint leis an cónascadh. An bhfuil rud eile seachas sábhailt airgid i gceist? An bhfuil aon baol ann don neamhspleáchas? Ónméid atá cloiste agamsa, bhí obair iontach déanta ag an Coimisinéir Teanga. Fear réasúnta ógatá ann agus bhí sé bríomhar agus bhí spiorad ag baint leis, ach ní raibh sé riamh conspóideach. Bhí sé dírithe ar an obair a bhí le déanamh agus bhíáthas orm gur éirigh leis, gan a bheith conspóideach. Tááthas orm freisin go mbeidh Foras na Gaeilge ag leanúint ar aghaidh leis an obair. Tá áthas orm freisin gur obair tras-Teorann a bheidh ar siúl acu. Gan trácht ar an Good Friday Agreement ná aon rud mar sin, tá sé an-tábhachtach ar fad go bhfuil le tuiscint ag muintir an oileáin ar fad, agus leis an diaspora, gur leo siúd an Ghaeilge. Tá súil agam go mbeidh baint ag Foras na Gaeilge leis an próiseas chomhairliúcháin atá i gceist. Tuigim go bhfuil cuid de na hathruithe atá i gceist ag teacht ón Tuaisceart seachas ón Deisceart, ach b’fhéidir nach bhfuil mé ceart faoi sin. B’fhearr liomsa go mbeadh consensus i gceist i gcónaí leis an obair tras- Teorann, mar sin an tslí is láidre le cinntiú go mbeidh dul chun cinn ann. Baineann an rud deireanach gur mhaith liom a rá leis an gComhairle um Oideachas Gaeltachta agus Gaelscolaí- ochta. Thuigeamar go mbeadh áit lárnach ag an gcomhairle maidir le cur i bhfeidhm na straité- ise. De réir mar a thuigim é, beidh críoch á chur leis an gcomhairle anois — beidh séáchean- gailt leis an Roinn Oideachais agus Scileanna. Caithfidh me a ráón taithí atá agam — ní mar mhasla nó aon rud — nach dtuigim gurb í an Roinn Oideachais agus Scileanna an Roinn is fearr ó thaobh cur chun cinn na Gaeilge de. Tá mé beagáinín amhrasach faoi sin. Molaim an Aire Stáit. Tá súil agam go leanfaidh sé ar aghaidh leis an dea-obair. B’fhiú teacht isteach anseo inniu chun a gcanúint a chloisint. Tá súil agam go leanfaimid ar aghaidh d’aon ghuth le gach saghas comhairliúcháin gur féidir linn bheith againn. Ba cheart go mbeadh áit lárnach san obair seo ag na daoine atá deonach ar an talamh.

Senator Catherine Noone: Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an Aire Stáit. Is fiú go mórna cúrsaí seo a phlé.Tá an Seanad ceannródaíoch i bhfábhar an díospóireacht seo a bheith againn. Cuireann séáthas orm smaointe an Aire Stáit i dtaobh na teanga a chloisint. Molaim go mór a chuid oibre ar son na teanga go dtí seo. Like many Irish people I have a great interest in Irish culture and language, and although I understand Irish I would not feel comfortable delivering my speech in Irish. As a European citizen who knew European languages were an important tool in career development and general education when I was growing up, “Ich spreche Deutsch”, “Je parle Franc¸ais” and “Parlo Italiano”. Ach níl me in ann Gaeilge a labhairt go líofa. I must reflect on that fact on a day like today. Like many who do not speak a great deal of Irish, I have the greatest of intentions but the incentives and structures have never really existed to help me make the most of those intentions. That is a fundamental barrier, although one must admit that it takes a certain amount of personal effort to maintain a language when there is no daily exposure to it. Conradh na Gaeilge has offered to arrange conversational classes to help me regain my Irish and I look forward to speaking as Gaeilge ar an chéad uair eile. There are threats and opportunities for the Irish language, which is endangered. The only languages in Europe generally known to be in danger of disappearing are the Celtic languages of Britain and Ireland such as Scottish Gaelic and Irish Gaelic. Two languages which we can look to as an example of how to save a language are Hebrew and Welsh. Hebrew ceased to be a living language thousands of years ago but has been revived, with very strong cultural impulses playing a considerable 686 Irish Language: 18 January 2012. Statements role in its revival. In the case of Welsh, making the language accessible and acceptable played a large role in saving it, as well as consistent use in public services. The opportunities for the Irish language are considerable. The gaelscoileanna movement at primary level has grown at great pace and gaelscoileanna are now considered among the most desirable schools at this level. There is a new generation of young Irish people for whom speaking Irish is considered perfectly natural, and in this we have our greatest single resource. There are five categories indicating the degree of endangerment to a language; these are poten- tially endangered languages where decreasing numbers of children learn the language, endangered languages where the youngest speakers are young adults, seriously endangered languages where the youngest speakers have reached or passed middle age, moribund languages where only a few elderly speakers are left and extinct languages where no speakers are left. Previously, one might have argued that we were at a point where the language was endangered but, fortunately, that time is beginning to pass. There is much we can still do. There is a clear pattern. In the 2002 census, non-use of Irish among the 15 to 19 years group was 19.4%. Considering the stage such people are at in education, that is a low number, and there was a considerable decrease in use in the next age group of 20 to 24 years, when people go beyond leaving certificate level. That is where we must make improvements and we must continue to incentivise the speaking of Irish at adult level. The real question is how this can be achieved. I am an example of somebody who had a great exposure to the Gaeltacht and education in teenage years but who did not have the same exposure afterwards. We have reached an important juncture in the Irish language but are losing the battle in many ways. I refer to the seanfhocail, “ní neart go chur le chéile”, or to paraphrase in English, unity is strength. We must work together on solutions for the language, accepting in the scheme of things that we might have to change some of what we have done and are doing to achieve our goal. Making Irish optional, putting a renewed emphasis on conversational Irish and considering a complete change in the way we learn the language should all be on the table. Every- thing must be considered and, as such, I tentatively welcome the public consultation being formulated by Foras na Gaeilge, which is a step towards analysing all aspects of the language. Nothing can be beyond consideration and there is no shame in admitting past failures and learning from recent successes, particularly with regard to gaelscoileanna. The Irish language faces considerable challenges and opportunities. We must take on the challenges, embrace the opportunities and continue to work together towards making Irish a thriving language once again.

Senator Jillian van Turnhout: In June last year we had statements on the progress of the 20 year strategy for the Irish language and I expressed hope that I would be in a position to contribute in Irish. Unfortunately, I am not yet there but I thank Conradh na Gaeilge for the classes provided, which I have been attending. Unfortunately, I have not been able to attend recently due to a change in the Seanad agenda. We are trying to work on that and I hope that I will be able to contribute in Irish soon. There are specific points that I wish to raise. During the debate in June last year, I noted that the Minister of State announced that there would be a new statutory definition of Gael- tacht borders based on the outcome of studies being undertaken. He advised the House today that the heads of the Bill have been prepared for the relevant Gaeltacht Bill. Will the Minister of State confirm if there is a new statutory definition? I tried to ascertain this before I spoke. I am aware that the findings of the comprehensive linguistic study of the use of Irish in the Gaeltacht for 2007 were relied upon in this regard but I would like to know if other studies were undertaken and used. 687 Irish Language: 18 January 2012. Statements

[Senator Jillian van Turnhout.]

Another issue is the decision taken on the office of an Comisinéir Teanga, and the Minister of State must be acutely aware of the concern in the Irish-speaking community organisations regarding the Government’s announcement of an intention to close the office as a statutory independent office and merge its functions with the Office of the Ombudsman. My understanding is that the decision is unlikely to yield any significant saving to the Exchequer and may even cost money in the long term. Will the Minister of State provide an update on the decision and help me understand the rationale behind it, which I cannot do at present? I know we must make tough decisions but I would like an explanation of the reasons for closing the office. There are two other concerns. There has been a decision relating to demographics in schools and potential closures. That looks good in theory but considering impact on the ground, particularly with regard to gaelscoileanna and the provision of Irish language schools, has there been analysis of the decision from that perspective? I was very surprised that speech and language therapy is not available, by and large, in Irish. It is an important area and it is difficult in general for children to avail of such a service. Surely every child should be entitled to avail of such a service in their home language.

Senator Mary Moran: Like some of my colleagues, I dearly wish I was fluent in Irish so as to be able to deliver my speech in Irish. I hope to work to that aim. As a parent of a daughter who studied her degree course through Irish, I love to hear the Irish language and wish I was as fluent as her. I welcome the Minister of State to the Chamber. I am pleased to have an opportunity to contribute to these statements on the Irish language. I would like to begin by drawing attention to an tseirbhís tacaíochta dara leibhéal don Ghae- ilge, which I am familiar with as a former teacher. This support service for second level teachers of Irish was set up in 2007 to cater for múinteoirí Gaeilge who are preparing their students for the oral component of the State examinations. This year will be the first year of the increased emphasis on the oral component of the leaving certificate Irish exam. The percentage of the overall mark associated with it is increasing from 25% to 40%. Similarly, this is the third year in which junior certificate candidates can choose to take an exam in oral Irish that is worth 40%. As the mother of a leaving certificate student and a junior certificate student, I welcome the news that as a result of the increase in marks being allocated to the oral Irish exam at leaving certificate level, it is predicted that more students will take the exam at higher level. It is a progressive step in the development of our Irish language education. Although this is an early stage of this new development in curaclam na Gaeilge, the uptake of the optional oral Irish exam at junior certificate level shows an encouraging and increasing level of interest among students. As the State Examinations Commission does not pay for teachers to visit other schools to conduct these oral tests, as it does at leaving certificate level, the number of schools that are implementing this component remains relatively small, although it is growing. The Association of Secondary Teachers in Ireland and the Teachers Union of Ireland have banned their members from carrying out school-based assessments at junior certificate level that are not paid for by the State Examinations Commission. I would like this to be addressed because junior certificate students who opt for the oral exam are in a better position when they are preparing for the leaving certificate exam. I commend my local VEC in County Louth on its proactive approach to the optional oral Irish exam at junior certificate level across all of its schools. I spoke recently to the chief executive of the VEC, Dr. Padraig Kirk, about his decision to recruit external examiners to conduct these exams at junior certificate level. I commend him on this approach. He confirmed that as a result of the recruitment of such examiners, each of the schools in that VEC area has reported a considerable increase in student performance in Irish in recent junior certificate 688 Irish Language: 18 January 2012. Statements

Irish exams. Louth VEC plans to phase in the spoken Irish test for all junior certificate students in each of its schools over the coming years. This year, some 148 students took the oral exam at Bush Post Primary School, O’Fiaich College and Scoil Uí Mhuirí. This is just one of the strategies being employed by the VEC to promote Irish in education. Other strategies include the initiative to open an all-Irish post-primary school in the area. I urge the Minister of State to use his influence in support of this plan, for example by speaking to the Minister for Education and Skills. Major research has been undertaken as part of a feasibility study for this project. There is overwhelming evidence of the need and desire for a second level gaelscoil in the area. Recent statistics have shown that although Irish is in decline in Gaeltacht areas, its use is increasing in urban areas. Dundalk and other parts of Louth are among the most proficient parts of the country in the speaking of the Irish language. I commend all VECs that provide annual Gaeltacht scholarships to students. I encourage them to continue to do so. When I worked as a teacher in Monaghan VEC, one of the welcome dates in the school calendar was when these interviews took place. The trip to the Gaeltacht is often the high point of a teenager’s summer. Gaeilge has an important place in Ireland. Although it is politically the first official language, for most of us it is our second language. For that reason, it requires specific supports in society if it is to thrive and grow. Unlike the English language, the Irish language is a minority language, even in its own country. Teachers and students of Irish need additional supports for the teaching and learning process. At second level, there was a severe lack of in-service training for múinteoirí Gaeilge until an tseirbhís tacaíochta dara leibhéal don Ghaeilge was established. Since its establishment, the seirbhís has provided workshops and in-service training to teachers throughout the country. I would like to ask for a review of circular M10/94, which relates to the exemption from studying Irish. There has been a significant increase in the number of students looking for such exemptions at junior certificate and leaving certificate levels. The same students seem to be able to take European language subjects. That needs to be examined. As I am conscious of the time——

Acting Chairman (Senator Paul Coghlan): Tá sé istigh, is dócha.

Senator Mary Moran: Ba mhaith liom cúpla soicind breise. As I mentioned earlier, my daughter is doing a degree course through Irish. She recently conducted a brief survey of levels of Irish-language competence among the Members of the Seanad. I am delighted to report that just over 75% of Senators have at least a cúpla focal. Most Senators have much more Irish than that and some of them are completely fluent. This is a reflection of the high level of interest among Seanadóirí and means there is some scope for more debates to take place in Irish. I would love to hear more Irish being used in the House.

Acting Chairman (Senator Paul Coghlan): Tá cúig nóiméad ag an Seanadóir Ó Clochartaigh.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. Beidh sé deacair an méid atá le rá agam a rá icúig nóiméad. Beidh deiseanna eile againn. Cuirim fáilte roimh an díos- póireacht. Ba mhaith liom comhghairdeas a dhéanamh leis na Seanadóirí atá ag úsáis na Gaeilge go rialta agus ata áúsáid arís inniu. Is maith é sin a fheiceáil. Tá cáil ar mhuintir Dhún na nGall mar fidléirí maithe — tá mé ag caint faoi ceoltóirí—ach is í an samhail atá imo chloigeann anois ná go bhfuil an Aire Stáit, ar bhealach, cosúil le Nero, a bhí ag fidléireacht nuair a bhí an Róimh á dhó.Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil an géarchéim ina bhfuil cúrsaí Gaeltachta agus Gaeilge á thógáil ar bord sách mór, i ndáiríre, ag an Rialtas seo. Sa bhliain 2010, dúirt an Aire Stáit an méid seo a leanas leis an Aire a bhí ann ag an am, Pat Carey: 689 Irish Language: 18 January 2012. Statements

[Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh.]

Does he also agree that no language can survive as a living language without native speakers? Latin survives as a dead language because there are no native speakers. We do not want Irish to suffer the same fate as Latin.

Cuirim i do leith, a Aire Stáit, go bhfuilimid ag dul síos an bóthar sin go han sciobtha. Nílan Rialtas ag feidhmiú sách sciobtha chun dan i ngleic leis an deacracht sin. Míneoidh mé cénfáth an bhfuil an méid sin á rá agam. Tá cuid mhaith pointí ardaithe ag mo chomhghleacaithe. Nílmé ag iarraidh dul siar orthu. Is dócha gurb é ceann de na clocha is mó ar ár bpaidrínná an cinneadh atá déanta maidir le Oifig an Choimisinéara Teanga. Ta sé náireach, i ndáiríre, go bhfuil an cinneadh seo glactha ag an Rialtas seo. Tá an Rialtas ag díriú ar an gcoimisinéir, atá tar éis sar-jab a dhéanamh agus atá thar a bheith éifeachtach agus trédhearcach. Is é an leithscéal atá curtha in iúl acu ná go bhfuil siad ag iarraidh roinnt airgid a shábháil, b’fhéidir. Ba mhaith liom a fháil amach go soiléir cé a rinne an cinneadh seo. Cad ar a bhfuil an cinneadh bunaithe? Tá na ceisteanna sin curtha againn ar an Aire Stáit agus ar fheidhmeannaigh na Roinne cheana, ach níl aon fhreagra faighte againn go fóill. Dúradh linn gur cinneadh Rialtais a bhí ann. Tá mé ag iarraidh a fháil amach cad go díreach a tharla. An raibh na 15 Airí ag suí timpeall maidin amháin nuair a bheartaíodar ar fháil réidh leis an gcoimisinéir? An cheart dúinn glacadh leis gur cuireadh cáipéis de chineál éigin os a gcomhair, ag tabhairt míniú ar cénfáth gur cheart fáil réidh leis an gcoimisinéir? Ar tháinig an cáipéis sin ón Roinn Ealaíon, Oidhreachta agus Gaeltachta, ón Roinn Caiteachais Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe nóón Roinn Airgeadais? Mar a luaigh an Seanadóir Ó Murchú, ba cheart go mbeimid atá ag troid ar son na teanga in ann cás a chur os comhair oifig neamhspleách. Dá bhrí sin, ba chóir dúinn bheith in ann feiceáil cén bunúsabhí leis an gcinneadh. Go dtí seo, nílsé léirithe ag an Rialtas go bhfuil bunús ar bith leis, nó go bhfuil an rud eacnamúil nó trédhearcach. Cuirim i gcuimhne ar an Aire Stáit go bhfuil an Rialtas thar a bheith faillíoch ina gcuid cúraimí maidir le Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla. Ag cur i láthair de chuid Tóstal na Gaeilge Dé Satharn seo caite, léirigh an coimisinéir go bhfuil an Rialtas iomlán faillíoch i gcur i bhfeidhm agus i ndaingniú na scéimeanna teanga. Tá 66 de na scéimeanna a bhaineann leis na heagrais Stáit imithe in éag. Tá 22 acu imithe in éag le fada. Tá an Rialtas i bhfeidhm ar iad a dhaingniú, ionas gur féidir leis an gcoimisinéir teanga déanamh cinnte de go bhfuil a gcuid dualgais á chomhlíonadh ag na comhlachtaíéagsúla. Céard a bhí ar bun ag an Rialtas seo, agus an Rialtas a chuaigh roimhe, le roinnt blianta? Thosaigh an meath nuair a bhí an iar-Aire ann. Tá Tithe an Oireachtais, Oifig an Ombudsman, a bhfuil an Rialtas ag iarraidh a chónascadh le Oifig an Choimisinéara Teanga, agus an Roinn Ealaíon, Oidhreachta agus Gaeltachta i measc na dreamanna is measa ó thaobh scéimeanna teanga a chur i bhfeidhm. Nil scéim daingnithe ag do Roinn féin, a Aire Stáit. Go deimhin, thógsé roinnt blianta don Roinn an scéimabhí ann roimhe sin a chur i bhfeidhm. Is mórannáire é sin. Dá mbeadh sé sin ag tarlú igcúrsaí sláinte nó igcúrsaí eile, bheadh cloigeann ar an mbloc á iarraidh. Is é seo an bun-obair ata ar bun ag an Roinn. Tá an Roinn in ainm is a bheith ag déanamh cinnte go bhfuil dlí na tíre, ó thaobh cearta teanga, á chur i bhfeidhm agus tá sí ag loic go hiomlán ar sin. Tá sé scannalach. Tá sé fíor-thábhachtach go gcuirfí an Straitéis 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge i bhfeidhm, ach céard tá ar bun ag an Rialtas? Is cineál straitéis àla carte atá ar siúl aige. Nuair a tháinig an staidéar cuimsitheach amach i 2007, dúradh go raibh 20 bliain leis an nGaeilge a choinneáil beo agus a shábháil. Sin cúig bliana ó shin, mar shin tá cúig bliana imithe. Cuireadh an straitéis chun cinn tar éis cuid mhaith oibrithe imeasc na bpáirtithe éagsúla. Bhí cuid mhaith le go bhféadfaí cur sa straitéis agus a theastaigh a chur ann, ach séard atá an Rialtas á dhéanamh anois ná píosaí beaga a phiocadh anseo is ansiúd amach as an straitéis lena gcur i bhfeidhm. Níl an Rialtas á 690 Irish Language: 18 January 2012. Statements chur i bhfeidhm mar a bhí molta. Áirím, mar shampla, an cinneadh damanta atá déanta gan an t-Ard Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste a choinneáil san áireamh ar an bhfochoiste atá in ainm is a bheith ag plé le cúrsaí oideachais. Tá sé scannalach tar éis an dea obair atá déanta ag an Ard Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste. In ainneoin go raibh an Rialtas roimhe seo ag cur lancaisí ar na Ranna ó thaobh foireann a fhostú,tá an tAire Stáit ag iarraidh fáil réidh le cúraimí na Gaeilge agus iad a shú isteach sa Roinn Oideachais agus Scileanna. Níl ach 1% den dream atá fostaithe sa Roinn Oideachais agus Scileanna in ann a chuid oibre a dhéanamh trí Ghaeilge, agus táimid ag brath chomh mór orthu sin ó thaobh na Gaeilge a chur chun cinn sa chóras oideachais. Tá cás na scoileanna Gaeltachta luaite cheana agus an earnáil maoinithe. Tá sé fíor-thábhach- tach go mbéadh an próiseas maidir leis an SSs maoinithe i bhfad níos cuimsithigh agus go bpléifí an obair mhaith atá déanta ag na heagrais Gaeilge agus an rud atá ag teacht ón mbonn aníos. Tá faitíos orm go bhfuil Údarás na Gaeltachta ligthe i léig ag an Rialtas. Níl an maoiniú ceart á dhéanamh ansin ó thaobh airgid caipitil de. Ná deirtear liom go bhfuil an t-údarásag fáil an t-airgead céanna agus a bhí sé anuraidh. Le cúig bliana anuas roimhe sin bhí an Rialtas ag gearradh siar ar an airgead caipitil a bhí ag teastáil ón údarás, agus de réir na staidéar atá déanta, ní leor an méid atááchur ar fáil chun fostaíocht a chaomhnu, gan trácht ar fhostaíocht nua a chruthú. Ba mhaith liom geallúint a fháil inniu ón Aire Stáit. Tá sé fíor-aisteach go bhfuil cinneadh déanta ag an Rialtas fáil réidh leis an gCoimisinéir Teanga sula bhfuil an próiséas ó thaobh moltaí an phobail tógtha. Tá mé ag iarraidh geallúint ón Aire Stáit, má thagann an fhianaise ón athbhreithniú ar Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla chun cinn le rá go bhfuil daoine ag iarraidh Oifig an Choimisinéara Teanga a choinneáil neamhspleách, a choinneáil sa nGaeltacht agus a choinneáil ag feidhmiú mar atá, mar go bhfuil sí ag oibriú, go bhfuil sé sásta seasamh leis an bpobal ar an gceist sin, mar ní ghlacfaimid le haon ghearradh siar ar sin. An príomh jab atá againn ná fostaíocht a chruthú san nGaeltacht. Ní chloisim mórán anseo faoi céard atá an Rialtas ag dul a dhéanamh faoi jabanna a chruthú ins na meáin, i dtionscal na mara, ó thaobh fhuinneamh inathnuaite agus mar sin de. Céard atá an Rialtas ag déanamh ó thaobh seasamh leis na scoileanna Gaeltachta? Tá gearradh siar damanta á dhéanamh i gcúrsaí oideachais. An fhadhb is mó atá againn ná nach bhfuil an tAire Stáit ag bord an Rialtais. Tá gá le hAire sinsearach ag bord an Rialtas chun troid ar son chúrsaí Gaeilge agus Gaeltachta. Muna ndéan- ann an Rialtas gníomhú i bhfad níos fearr, is é an oidhreacht a bhéas ar an Rialtas seo, agus ar an Aire Stáit é féin, ná go mbeidh dúnmharú na Gaeilge á chur ina leith — dúnmharú tré faillí adhéanamh nuair a bhí aige a bheith i bhfad níos gníomhaí. Tá ceisteanna ann maidir le stádas na Gaeilge san Eoraip. Bhí idirbheartaíocht le déanamh ansin ó thaobh aistriúcháin agus mar sin de. Ní chloisim tada déanta faoi sin. Tá cuid mhaith ceisteanna eile ach tá mé ag rith amach as am. Iarraim ar an Aire Stáit gan insint dom gur ciorraithe airgid ar fad is cúis leis. An tseachtain seo chugainn beidh an Rialtas ag síniú seic de €1.2 bhilliún le tabhairt ar lucht na mbannaí nach raibh aon bharantas tugtha dóibh agus €2 bhilliún eile faoi cheann dhá mhí.Ná habair nach bhfuil airgead ins an Stát seo. Tá pobal na Gaeilge ag iarraidh a gcearta, cearta teanga agus an buiséad ceart curtha ar fáil leis an nGaeilge agus an Ghaeltacht a choinneail slán.

Senator Jim D’Arcy: Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an Aire Stáit don tSeanad arís. Cheap mé go raibh gach rud feicthe agam nuair a chonaic mé na muca ag eitilt thall sa Cheathrú Rua lá amháin. Nuair a chloisim go bhfuil an locht ar an Teachta Dinny McGinley de bharr stad na Gaeilge, cuireann séíonadh an domhain orm, mar nílsé sa jab ach le tamall gairid. 691 Irish Language: 18 January 2012. Statements

[Senator Jim D’Arcy.] Mhínigh sé go bhfuil an straitéis againn anois agus go bhfuil sé chun é a chur i bhfeidhm. Labhair sé go réasúnta agus dúirt sé go bhfuil Údarás na Gaeltachta chun dul i mbun gnoithe thall sa Ghaeltacht agus go bhfuil sé féin agus a Roinn, chomh maith le Foras na Gaeilge, ag iarraidh an rud céanna a dhéanamh sa ghalltacht. Ní fheicim mórán cearr le sin. Molaim an tAire Stáit agus go n-éirí an t-ádh leis.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Ní hionann caint agus gníomh.

Senator Cáit Keane: Tá alángníomhaíocht ar siúl.

Senator Jim D’Arcy: Caithfidh mé caint le Pádraig an Tailliúra sa Cheathrú Rua, féachaint cad atáádhéanamh thall ansin maidir leis na gasúir a bheith ag caint i nGaeilge. An bhfuil a fhios ag an Aire Stáit nach bhfuil ach 9% de ghasúir na Gaeltachta ag caint le chéile trí Ghaeilge? Níl an locht ar an Aire Stáit de bharr sin, ach caithfidh sé rud éigin a dhéanamh faoi. Caithfimid smaointiú ar cad is féidir a dhéanamh agus gan a bheith ag cánadh an Aire Stáit. Tá cupla rud gur féidir linn a dhéanamh. Go minic, cloisim daoine ag caint faoin gCoimisinéir Teanga. Cad a dhéanann an Coimisinéir Teanga nach bhféadfadh Oifig an Ombudsman a dhéanamh? A dhath ar bith, ach d’fhéadfadh múinteoirí i scoileanna Gaeltachta an Ghaeilge a theagasc beagáinínníos fearr agus níos mó Gaeilge a úsáid ins na scoileanna. D’fhéadfaí cumas na múinteoirí a fhorbairt. Sin na rudaí a chaithfimid a dhéanamh.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Sin masla ar mhúinteoirí na Gaeltachta.

Senator Jim D’Arcy: Bhuel, Dia ársábháil.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Sin masla. Ba cheart don Seanadóir dul siar chuig na scoileanna agus breathnú ar an obair mhaith atá ar siúl acu.

Senator Jim D’Arcy: Ní mise atáárá sin.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Tá an Seanadóir á rá.

Senator Jim D’Arcy: Tá eagraíochtaí agus daoine sa Ghaeltacht á rá fosta.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Cé hiad?

Senator Jim D’Arcy: An bhfuil na páistí ag caint trí Ghaeilge an t-am uilig i scoileanna na Gaeltachta? An bhféadfadh éinne anseo an cheist sin a fhreagairt?

Senators: Níl.

Senator Jim D’Arcy: Níl. Sin an freagra.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Níl staidéar cuimsitheach déanta ar an gceist seo.

Senator Jim D’Arcy: Níl siad ag caint i nGaeilge agus ba chóir dóibh a bheith. Ba chóir dos na scoileanna féachaint chuige go bhfuil siad ag caint i nGaeilge. An masla é sin ar mhúinteoirí na tíre nó iarracht ar réiteach a fháil ar fhadhb? Níl a fhios agam. Tá sééasca a rá go bhfuil mé ag maslú, ach nílmé.Tá mé ag iarraidh teacht ar réiteach na faidhbe ins na scoileanna Gaeltachta. Tá mé ag iarraidh teacht ar réiteach na faidhbe nach bhfuil ach 9% de ghasúir na Gaeltachta ag caint le chéile i nGaeilge. Thiocfadh liom i bhfad níos mó ará ach cloisim go bhfuil an t-am ag sleamhnú thart. Tá an Ghaeilge ag marcaíocht a mhaidí na gcoscán. Ba bhreá liom go mbéadh cúigear stócach cosúil 692 Irish Language: 18 January 2012. Statements leis an Aire Stáit chun obair ar an nGaeilge. Bhéadh cúrsaí i bhfad nios fearr dá mb’ea. Fearr é adhéanann a fhíor-dhícheall chun an Ghaeilge a fheabhsú, mar tá sí i mbaol.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Ach níl aon substaint leis.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: Tá brón orm nach bhfuil ach cúig nóiméad agam. Cuireann sé iontas orm nach bhfuil níos mó ama ná sin againn mar go bhfuil go leor le rá ar an ábhar seo. Is mór an trua é nach bhfuil deich mbomaite, ar a laghad, ag gach Seanadóir chun labhairt ar an——

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Go díreach.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: ——ábhar seo agus aon ábhar eile sa Teach seo. Ar an drochuair, nílsé sin againn. Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit, mo chomhghleacaíóthuaidh. Creidim gur mór an trua é nach bhfuil sé ag bord an Rialtais. Níl aon dabht go mbeadh sé níos fearr don Ghaeilge dá mbeadh sé ann mar Aire sinsearach. Sa Rialtas deireanach, bhí Aire sinsearach le cúraimí tábhachtacha Gaeltachta ag bord an Rialtais. Déarfainn gur botúnabhí ann nuair nár thug an Taoiseach deis don Aire Stáit suí ag bord an Rialtais chun troid a dhéanamh ar son pobal na Gaeltachta agus pobal na Gaeilge maidir leis na ceisteanna fíor-tromchúiseacha atá romhainn uilig ag an bpointe seo. Tá Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla foilsithe ina dhlíón mbliain 2003. Déanadh go leor obair comhairliúcháin leis an coiste Dála, na grúpaí pobail agus grúpaí eile anuraidh agus arú anuraidh. Is cosúil gur beag obair atá déanta chun na moltaí san Acht a chur chun tosaigh i mbliana. B’fhéidir gur féidir leis an Aire Stáit soiléiriú a thabhairt don Teach ar an obair atá idir lámha faoi láthair agus na moltaí ar a bhfuil an Roinn ag feidhmiú i dtaca leis an straitéis 20 bliain. Baineann fíor-thábhacht leis an mBille Gaeltachta ó thaobh an struchtúr agus na cúraimí a bheidh ar na heagraíochtaí cuí agus ar Údarás na Gaeltachta. An féidir leis an Aire Stáit réasún nó fráma ama a thabhairt dúinn sa chomhthéacs sin? Cén uair a bheidh an Bille sin foilsithe agus os comhair Tithe an Oireachtais? Rinneadh tagairt d’Údarás na Gaeltachta cheana féin. Tá an t-údarásfíor-thábhachtach do shaol eacnamaíochta na Gaeltachta. Tá an t-údarás ag streachailt faoi láthair de bhrí nach bhfuil príomhfheidhmeannach aige. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil iarrachtaí déanta ag an Aire Stáit chuig an Roinn Caiteachas Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe ag iarraidh cead a fháil príomhfheidhmeannach úr a fhostú.Níl an cead sin faighte ag an údarásgofóill. Tá sé ag cruthú deacrachtaí agus éiginnteacht mór i measc foireann, eagraíocht agus bord an údaráis. Tá sé fiór-thábhachtach go dtabharfadh an Rialtas cead don údaráspríomhfheidhmeannach úr a fhostú. Anuas ar sin, ba cheart bainisteoir réigiúnach a fhostú inDún na nGall. Níl aon bainisteoir réigiúnach sa cheantar faoi láthair.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Ba cheart an post a líonadh san iarthar freisin.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: Ní aontaím leis an gcinneadh atá déanta ag an Rialtas gan toghchán Údarás na Gaeltachta a reachtáil as seo amach. Tá sé mar phlean ag an Rialtas na comhaltaí a ainmniú trí chóras na comhairlí contae agus ag an Aire é nóíféin. Is buille mór don daonlathas é sin. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil argóint á chur chun tosaigh go gcosnaíonn sé €500,000 toghchán a reachtáil. Chun an fhírinne a rá,ní ghlacaim leis an argóint sin. D’fhéad- fadh an Rialtas an toghchán a reachtáil ar beagánmílte euro i gcomhairle le reafrainn nó toghcháin áitiúla. Ní thuigim cénfáth nach bhfuil sé sin á dhéanamh. Baineann éiginnteacht mór le Meitheal Forbartha na Gaeltachta faoi láthair. Tá pobal na Gaeltachta ag cailliúnt faoi láthair os rud é nach bhfuil siad in ann airgead Leader a tharraingt 693 Irish Language: 18 January 2012. Statements

[Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill.] anuas do tograí tábhachtacha nuair atá siad ag iarraidh fostaíocht a chruthú. Ba cheart don Aire Stáit suí síos leis an Aire Comhshaoil, Pobail agus Rialtais Áitiúil, an Teachta Hogan, chun teacht ar fhoirmle a chuirfeadh struchtúr úr i bhfeidhm chomh luath agus is féidir. Tá na ceantracha Gaeltachta ag cailliúnt amach ar airgead ón Eoraip agus ónStát de bhrí nach bhfuil Meitheal Forbartha na Gaeltachta in áit. Rinne cainteoirí eile plé ar na moltaí atá déanta ag an Rialtas maidir leis an ardteist. Ní aontaím leis an moladh deireadh a chur leis an Ghaeilge mar ábhar éigeantach ag leibhéal na hardteistiméireachta. Le seachtain anuas, tá breathnú ar ceist na scoileanna Gaeltachta déanta agam le príomhoidí agus cathaoirligh bord bainistíochta na scoileanna Gaeltachta i mo cheantar féin. Is buille uafásach trom é an cinneadh atá déanta ag an Rialtas le gairid i dtaca leis na scoileanna beaga agus na scoileanna Gaeltachta. Cuirfidh sé isteach go díreach ar an Ghaeilge sna scoileanna Gaeltachta. Labhair an Seanadóir Jim D’Arcy faoi na deacrachtaí sna scoileanna sin, ach beidh siad i bhfad níos measa nuair atá polasaí an Rialtais curtha i bhfeidhm. Níl aon ciall le polasaí Rialtais a phiocann amach scoileanna beaga, a íslíonn líon na múinteoirí sna scoileanna sin agus a dhéanann iarracht cuid dóibhachónascadh. Má tá polasaí den chineál sin á bhrú chun tosaigh ag an Aire Oideachais agus Scileanna, an Teachta Quinn, is léir nach dtuigeann sé iarthar na hÉireann nó ceantracha tuaithe. Measaim gur botúnatá sa mholadh Oifig an Choimisinéara Teanga a chónascadh le hOifig an Ombudsman. Tá an obair atá ar siúl ag an gcoimisinéir neamhspleách ó aon eagraíocht Stáit eile. Tá sé bunaithe ar Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla. Tá sé fíor-thábhachtach go gcoinneofaí an neamhspleáchais sin. Eagraíocht fíor-thábhachtach is ea an Chomhairle um Oideachas Gaeltachta agus Gaelscolaí- ochta freisin. Cuireann an chomhairle scileanna agus seirbhísí sonracha ar fáil. Tá sé tábhacht- ach go gcoinneofaí an eagraíocht sin freisin. Mar a dúirt mé níos luaithe, ar an drochuair, níl go leor ama againn. Tá go leor le rá againn. Chuaigh go leor eagraíochtaí i dteagmháil linn mar Sheanadóirí.Táimid ag iarraidh na pointí go léir a rinne siad a chur chun tosaigh. Caithfimid teacht ar dóigh níos fearr. Nuair atá Seana- dóirí ag iarraidh pointí adhéanamh i rith díospóireacht mar seo, caithfear am a chur ar fáil. Nil sé ceart teorainn ama de cúig nóiméad a chur ar an méid ata le rá againn.

Acting Chairman (Senator Deirdre Clune): That was agreed on the Order of Business.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: Táimid ag iarraidh bheith ag comhoibriú le pobal na Gaeilge, na Gaeltachta agus eagraisí eile. Ba mhaith liom an pointe sin a dhéanamh.

Senator Cáit Keane: Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit agus na cuairteoirí atá sa Ghailearaí. D’aontaigh mé le mórán den mhéid adúirt an Seanadóir Ó Clochartaigh mar gheall ar an Ghaeilge, ach níor aontaigh mé leis nuair a dhein sé comparáid idir an Aire Stáit agus an Impire Nero. Níl an tAire Stáit ag fidléireacht agus an Róimh á dhó.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Tá an Rialtas ar fad ag fidléireacht.

Senator Cáit Keane: Níl, go deimhin. Feicfidh an Seanadóir nach mar sin atá.Tá mé cinnte go bhfuil an tAire Stáit ag tabhairt tosaíocht ard don Ghaeilge, agus gach a bhaineann leis an teanga, chun í a chur chun tosaigh ar clár an Rialtais. Is íár dteanga oifigiúl an teanga is aosta san Eoraip. Ba cheart dúinn uilig í a chur chun cinn, agus táárndícheall á dhéanamh againn é sin a dhéanamh. Tá an t-ádh linn, agus leis an teanga, go bhfuil an tAire Stáit seo i gcumhacht. Tagann sé on Ghaeltacht agus tá an Ghaeilge go flúirseach aige. Molaim é sin. D’fhógair an 694 Irish Language: 18 January 2012. Statements tAire Stáit go raibh tús á chur le hathbhreithniú ar Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla 2003 agus cuirim fáilte le sin. Dúirt an tAire Stáit go bhfuil cuireadh tugtha do na grúpaíéagsúla chun an obair atáádhéanamh ar sin a chur chun cinn. Mar adúirt an tAire Stáit, tá sé tábhachtach an leas is fearr a bhaint as an gcaiteachas ar an teanga. Tá moltaí iontacha sa straitéis 20 bliain chun an teanga a choimeád beo. Caithfimid iad a mholadh agus a chur chun cinn. Tá na moltaí beaga chomh tábhachtach leis na moltaí móra. Tá ceist agam faoin moladh atá déanta Oifig an Choimisinéara Teanga a dhúnadh mar oifig reachtúil neamhspleách agus a gcuid feidhmeanna a chónascadh le feidhmeanna Oifig an Ombudsman. B’fhéidir go n-iarrfaí ceisteanna faoin gconradh atá ag an gcoimisinéir go dtí an bhliain 2016. He has a binding contract until 2016. If that is broken, perhaps the State or the Oireachtas will find itself in difficulty. I ask the Minister of State to respond to that. Tógadh an cinneadh faoi Oifig an Choimisinéara Teanga, atá tábhachtach agus riachtanach le cur i bhfeidhm Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla 2003, gan an próiseas comhairliúcháin poiblí athógáil san áireamh. Tá an phróiseas sin ag leanúint go dtí deireadh na míosa seo. Ní cheart aon rud a athrú roimh dheireadh an phróisis sin. Tá an Ghaeilge mar teanga oifigiúil san Aontas Eor- pach ó 2007. Labhair Seanadóir eile faoi na haistriúcháin. B’fhéidir go mbreathnóidh an tAire Stáit ar sin. Tá a fhios ag gach éinne gurb é an modh oideachais an rud is tábhachtaí. Molaim féachaint ar an gcuraclam chun a chinntiú go bhfuil béim ar an focal labhartha. Tá a fhois agam go bhfuil athrú déanta ar na scrúdaithe cainte. Tá 40% de na marcanna á thabhairt dóibh siúd anois. Ceapaim go rachfaidh sé sin suas go dtí 50% níos déanaí.Tá i bhfad níos mo le déanamh leis an modh múnadh. Fágann a lán daltaí na scoileanna le blas uafásach ina béil mar gheall ar an gcaoi inar múineadh an teanga dóibh. Caithfear an teanga a dhéanamh tarraingteach do na daltaí mar to compel is to repel. Ba cheart dúinn smaoineamh ar daltaí a spreagadh gan pionós, b’fhéidir le pointí breise sa teastas sóisearach agus san ardteist. Tá caighdeán traenála múin- teoirí an-tábhachtach agus iarraim ar an Aire Stáit féachaint ar sin freisin. Ní fhéadfainn caint faoin teanga gan labhairt ar na gaelscoileanna agus an obair bhreá atáá dhéanamh iontu, cé go bhfuil cuid acu i bhfoirgnimh le caighdeán an-íseal ar fad. Tá caighdeán an oideachais an-ard sna scoileannna sin ach tá caighdeán an-íseal ar na foirgnimh. Tá alán ráite mar gheall ar an pupil-teacher ratio agus an athrú atá ag teacht. D’iarr duine eile ar an Aire Stáit iarraidh ar an Aire Oideachais agus Scileanna, an Teachta Ruairí Quinn, athbhre- ithniú adhéanamh ar sin chomh maith leis an t-athbhreithniú atáádhéanamh ar na scoileanna DEIS. Tá sé ráite ag an UN go bhuil leath de na 6,700 teangaí sa domhan i ndáinséir dul in éag. Caithfimid a dhéanamh cinnte de nach mbeidh an Ghaeilge ina measc. Molaim tacaíocht a thabhairt do na Gaeltachtaí agus don obair atá ar siúl ag gach bean an tí.Téann níos mó ná 25,000 daltaí chuig an Ghaeltacht gach bhliain agus tugann seo €50 milliún chuig na Gaeltachtaí. Aontaím leis an immersion theory — daltaí a chur chuig an Ghaeltacht — agus le gach cabhair a thabhairt do sin. Maidir leis an obair atá ar siúl ag Foras na Gaeilge, an North-South implementation body a bhunaíodh chun an teanga a chur chun chinn, tá moltaí comhchomhairliúcháin foilsithe aige anois, ach ta fadhbanna móra ag a lán de na heagraíochtaí leis na moltaí sin. I disagree with my colleague on the proposed new funding model. I urge the Minister of State to ask Foras na Gaeilge to take another look at the proposed new funding model, because 19 organisations that are co-funded by them will be based on a portfolio of schemes that will be openly advertised to the whole Irish language sector and community.

Acting Chairman (Senator Deirdre Clune): Tá an t-am istigh anois. 695 Irish Language: 18 January 2012. Statements

Senator Cáit Keane: We have until four o’clock and I am not aware of any other speakers, but perhaps there are one or two.

Acting Chairman (Senator Deirdre Clune): Cúig nóiméad eile mar sin.

Senator Cáit Keane: I urge the Minister of State to take another look at that. One other issue I want him to consider is the setting up or creation of new urban Gaeltachtaí or area networks in urban areas. For example, in my area of south-west Dublin, Clondalkin is the fastest growing urban Gaeltacht in the country. I suggest to the Minister of State that scoileanna Gaeilge and Áras Chrónáin are doing great work there. These valuable communities are doing great work and this effort could be piloted in other areas. This type of community supported effort must be promoted. Ar scáthachéile a mhairimid.

Senator Paschal Mooney: Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. D’fhéadfainn Gaeilge a labhairt sa díospóireacht seo ach níl sufficient blas agam so I will make my contribution as Béarla. I always feel slightly intimidated when I am surrounded by a load of teachers in debates on the Irish language. There may be a message in that regard — that the wider population will understand more what I am saying than what they are saying. That is not to take away in any way from the quality of their contributions. This may be a question that arises with regard to all of the controversy surrounding funding for the Irish language and it is on this I wish to focus. The document issued by Foras na Gaeilge is a disgraceful document. It is an insult to the 19 organisations that have been promoting the Irish language to suggest that they should now enter a consultation phase, as Foras na Gaeilge has already taken the decision to withdraw the funding. Talk about closing the gate after the horse has bolted. The Minister of State and I are old friends and I have enormous respect for him at political level. I know his heart and soul is in the Irish language, where he comes from, his background and his appointment to the job of Minister of State with responsibility for Irish. However, will he be happy about standing over the fact that his legacy will be the beginning of the destruction of the Irish language in this country? First, he is going to abolish the democratic methods under which people are elected in the Irish language areas in the country. Second, he is abolishing the office of the language commissioner, or absorbing it into another body. Third, this body, Foras na Gaeilge, set up under the North-South implementation body, will now withdraw funding from 19 organisations that have given their hearts and souls to the promotion of the Irish language for decades. I put the question with the greatest respect. Will the Minister of State be happy about all of these developments taking place? Is he happy that the argument being put forward to justify these decisions is that this will, somehow, help promote Irish in this country and encourage more people to get involved? I want to address this Foras na Gaeilge document specifically. Can the Minister of State give any indication here as to who the individual was who decided to change the model of funding? What reasons were given for that? This is a smokescreen. For example, with regard to the criteria relating to how the funding will be made, the document states that Foras will be reconfi- guring the following aspects of its strategy priorities in fundamental language planning principles, namely, status, ability and the use of the Irish language. Is it being suggested that the 19 organisations have not complied with that? Is it suggested that they do not have a status in Irish society, that they do not have the ability to do what they have been doing for many decades or have not promoted the use of the Irish language through the implementation of their schemes? What have they been promoting? Is it Urdu or some sort of Chinese, such as Mandarin, that they have been involved in promoting over recent decades? These organisations have been out on the ground promoting the Irish language and encouraging and helping parents and children across a variety of organisations. They have not been devoted exclusively to the 696 Irish Language: 18 January 2012. Statements promotion of the language but to arts and culture and various other dimensions that relate to the culture that makes us what we are and a separate people. Now this proposal comes before us. Who made this decision? Who within the North-South Ministerial Council made the decision? I suggest to the Minister of State that this proposed consultation is only a sideshow, that the decision has been taken and that the proposal ema- nated from the board of Foras na Gaeilge itself. I cannot see who it was in the North-South Ministerial Council would have made this proposal without looking into the consequences of what would happen. What has happened is that the Irish language organisations, parents and children in the various schools are all up in arms. This controversy could well have been avoided. What will be the ultimate consequence of the consultation process? To suggest it is a consultation process, when the decision has already been taken to withdraw the funding anyway from the existing organisations, is an insult to the intelligence of the people involved. What will be the result of the consultation process? The reconfiguration of the funding model will proceed anyway. What will happen then? It states in the document that when the scheme is eventually put in place, it will be put out to tender. Who will tender under the new configur- ation? The 19 organisations will probably be in severe difficulty. One in particular, close to the Minister of State’s heart, which could find itself gone as a result of this proposal is Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge. I do not wish to over-egg the pudding, but I wish, with as much passion and commitment as I can offer, to inform the Minister of State that this proposal has created a hornet’s nest. The consequences of this decision will not disappear tomorrow, next week or at the end of the six-week consultation process. It is a grave disservice to those who have been involved in the promotion of the Irish language and an insult to those who, like myself, support the promotion of the Irish language. Saying that somehow this will better promote the Irish language across a variety of headings has no logic. There is no logic to what is proposed. I put forward this view in a non-partisan, objective and detached manner. The Minister of State needs to look again at this and to use his office to make a decision. As President Truman said: “The buck stops here.” It stops with the Minister of State. He is part of the North-South Ministerial Council and he can direct Foras na Gaeilge to take the decisions. It does not make policy here. The Minister of State makes policy. That is what he was elected for and that is why he was appointed to Government. I hope he will use his good office, as he has done traditionally, to support Irish culture, music and language to ensure this document is put where it should be — in the rubbish bin.

Senator Terry Brennan: Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit ar ais go dtí an Seanad. Mar a dúirt mé cheana, níl mo theanga fhéin go líofa agam, ach déanfaidh mé mo dhícheall caint i nGaeilge. Is é mo thuairim go bhfuil i bhfad níos mó le déanamh ag na múinteoirí ins na scoileanna náisiúnta agus ag tuismitheoirí.Bachóir go mbéadh siad ag obair le chéile. Tá níos mé le déanamh acu chun cabhrú lena chéile. Níl a fhios agam conas é sin a thosnú.B’fhéidir nach bhfuil sé indéanta. Nuair a bhí méóg, fadó fadó, agus ag dul go dtí an scoil náisiúnta múintí gach ábhar tré Ghaeilge, idir stair, tíreolas, matamaitic agus gach rud ach amháin Béarla. Bhí an-suim ag an múinteoir inár dteanga féin. Agus bhí múinteoirí i scoileanna in aice linn ag déanamh an rud céana. Tá an t-Aire Stáit ag obair go dian dícheallach ar son ár dteanga féin. Tá sé san Aireacht cheart. Nílbhéadh éinne ábalta an obair sin a dhéanamh chomh maith leis féin. Tá sé ag déanamh an-mhaitheas dár dteanga féin. Go leanfaidh sé ag obair dúinn.

Senator Feargal Quinn: Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. 697 Irish Language: 18 January 2012. Statements

[Senator Feargal Quinn.]

Is cuimhin liom seanfhocal ó mo laethanta scoile. “Éist le fuaim na habhann mar gheobhaidh tú iasc.” I remember that quote. “Listen to the sound of the river and you will catch a fish”.I use it today to suggest that there is a huge value in the Irish language for businesses, if they listen to their customers and to the marketplace and respond by using the Irish language. There is a love of the Irish language out there. When I started in business many years ago we automatically and without thinking about it put simple words such as “fáilte”, “isteach” and “amach” on our shop doors. The response we got from customers was such that we began to look for other ways to use Irish. We began to print simple words on our supermarket check-out receipts as Gaeilge, such as im, arán and so on. We used simple words that did not confuse people. If we had used something more difficult they might have thought we were trying to confuse them. The response we got was such that I believe there is a wealth of goodwill out there. Irish businesses very often do not identify with it. Those that do, get a response on that basis. We began to use Irish more, to the extent of saying to our employees that we wanted to be seen as people who were supportive of the Irish language and that we would support them if they were willing to put a sign on their checkout saying, “Tá Gaeilge agam”, “Je parle franc¸ais” or whatever it might happen to be. There is a response from customers who value the Irish language. If Irish businesses can seek that response in whatever way they can, they will find a response that is worthy. As I said, “Éist le fuaim na habhann mar gheobhaidh tú iasc. Listen to the sound of the river and you will catch fish”. You will do more business. That is a message we can get across. We don’t have to speak Irish to use it as an effective marketing tool for a brand or product and stand out from competitors at home and abroad. A business can use the language to differentiate itself and gain a competitive advantage. In my company we began to use the Irish language wherever we could. Some of our own- brand products were labelled in French, German and Spanish and we insisted that they be labelled as Gaeilge as well. It was interesting to see the little bit of Irish on the packaging of the products. One one occasion we had a visit from a Member of the House of Lords, who is Welsh and was promoting the Welsh language very strongly. During a visit to Ireland Bord na Gaeilge brought him to our shop to look at our products. It reminded us of how using Irish can be good for business. I encourage businesses to look at the possibility of setting up a bilingual website. With new technology such as the mobile phone application, Get the Focal, which provides more than 12,000 English/Irish translations for off-line use, it is easier than ever to get involved. The use of Irish reinforces and strengthens the Irishness of brands and further promotes authentic and naturally produced images, particularly of food products and services. However, Irish is not being used to its full potential. Much more can be done by Irish companies which must understand its value when marketing at home and abroad. The Irish language, or brand Irish, can differentiate a product or business and give a competitive advantage. I am acutely aware of the advantage it has given in my experience in business and I wholeheartedly encourage businesses to explore those many opportunities. My second point has to do with tourism. When I started, as a youngster, in the tourist business our guests mainly came from England, Scotland and Wales. There was a danger that a holiday in Ireland was not dissimilar enough from a holiday in England. We could ensure that it was different by the use of the Irish language. Gaillimh le Gaeilge is doing great work in Galway. In recent years, Galway has witnessed an increase in the use of bilingual signage in the city. This is largely due to the work of that organisation, in partnership with Galway City Council and the business community through the Galway Chamber of Commerce and other 698 Irish Language: 18 January 2012. Statements groups, to develop Galway’s unique Irish image and to gain bilingual status for the city of Galway. Gaillimh le Gaeilge believes this is particularly important for businesses in the hospi- tality sector, as the use of the Irish language helps it to deliver on the unique experience and the céad míle fáilte our visitors wish to experience when they visit Galway. I spent some time last year involved with a company in An Spidéal called Standún. It is a smashing company. It is a reminder of how the Irish language can be used to make oneself different from one’s competitors. I read of a business called Cupán Tae, which is a tea shop that has recently opened near the Spanish Arch in Galway City. The Irish name ensures that the language is an integral feature of the tea shop, with external bilingual signage welcoming people in. The manager of the tea shop, Mrs. Alison McArdle, says she was overwhelmed by the response to the Irish signage and the name of the shop. She says, “This has inspired us to move forward and introduce bilingualism into the tea shop beyond the signage”. She said she believed the name matches the concept she would like to portray. It creates a sense of nostalgia. A report found the Irish language is worth in excess of €136 million annually to the economy of Galway city and county, and supports more than 5,000 jobs. More than 90% of Galway city businesses believe it is a unique selling point for Galway’s image and the cultural identity of Galway. Galway city is renowned as a tourist destination and Gaillimh le Gaeilge wants the city to retain this unique Irishness so that when visitors leave Galway they will go away with a picture that says, “This is something different”. We have been saying for 80 or 90 years that there must be a better way to teach Irish. Two of our five children are married to French men and the French husbands always speak French to their children, whether they live in Ireland or France, and the mother always speaks Irish or English. It is easy to see that children can soak up a language at a very early age — two, three or four years of age — and repeat it. I do not know how this works, but it works so well. When we are teaching Irish, however, we seem to insist on starting with grammar. Children do not learn in that way. We did not learn the English language by being taught grammar. We learned it by speaking it naturally. It seems to me that youngsters of two, three, four or five years of age can soak up the language as long as we break the habit of teaching it to them. All of our children went to the Gaeltacht. Some of them went to Coláiste na Rinne in County Waterford, with which the Leader is familiar. They came back happily chatting, yapping, talking and conversing in Irish. One often hears children who attend gaelscoileanna in Dublin doing likewise. Not so long ago, I saw a whole load of children getting on a bus while yapping away as Gaeilge. It was so natural to them. When they get to second or third level, however, they somehow seem to forget their Irish. Something happens that means their use of Irish is not continued. I believe we can overcome these problems. I know the Minister of State’s heart is behind it. We have to make sure we do not do it by making Irish a tough subject that is learned though lessons on grammar, etc. It should be learned naturally by speaking it and making it fun. If we do that, I think the Irish language could be revitalised before we know where we are.

Senator David Cullinane: Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. Like many people in this State, I have some Irish but I do not speak the language fluently. As Senator Quinn has said, most people emerge from the mainstream schools of this country’s education system without a grasp of the Irish language. It is important for the Minister of State to examine exactly why that is the case. He needs to make sure the resources are put in place to ensure people have an opportunity to achieve fluency. When my oldest child was starting school, I had to make a clear choice on the question of whether to send him to the closest school or to a gaelscoil. If I wanted him to have a grasp of the Irish language, to appreciate the language and to speak the language, the only option I had was to send him to a gaelscoil. We had difficulty getting him into a gaelscoil, however. We were told it would be easier if, for example, one of his siblings 699 Irish Language: 18 January 2012. Statements

[Senator David Cullinane.] was already attending the school. The problem faced by many people throughout the country is that the shortage of gaelscoileanna means it can be difficult for them to give their children an opportunity to attend such a school. Luckily, my child was able to get into a gaelscoil and is attending it at the moment. At the age of five and a half, it is possible that he has more Irish than I have. It is great to see my child and many other children being given an opportunity to attend a gaelscoil. I come from Waterford, where a number of gaelscoileanna and meánscoileanna are operating from temporary accommodation and finding it difficult to get sites and funding. Many children in Waterford are being taught in prefabs. There is a notional view among many people who send their children to gaelscoileanna that the State’s failure to provide funding to such schools means it does not recognise their value. I can give many examples of the pupils of gaelscoileanna in Waterford city being taught in prefabs. That happens in other schools as well, but it affects gaelscoileanna disproportionately. Unfortunately, there are more people being taught in prefabs in gaelscoileanna than in other schools. That is wrong. I hope the Minister of State will address this issue. I welcome the people in the Gallery who represent groups that advocate on behalf of the Irish language. Senators have received a raft of e-mails from a plethora of organisations that support the language. We have been asked to raise a number of issues. I thank the groups in question. It is important that I mention some of those issues. The Minister of State and his counterpart in the North are jointly responsible for the new funding mechanisms for Irish language organisations. We are engaging with Irish language groups across the island. I assume the Minister of State is involved in similar activity. There is some concern about where the funding is going. People are worried about the potential for some of the expertise in this area to be lost as a result of the changes in the funding mechanisms. It is feared that the result of these changes could be the adoption of a top-down approach. It is important that we listen to these organisations when we are reviewing funding mechanisms and ensuring the best value for money is achieved. Everybody accepts that money is tight and that we are in difficult circumstances. We have to make sure we are funding these organisations appropriately and getting the maximum return from our spending. The presence of a Gaeltacht in my own country — An Rinn, in County Waterford — has given rise to a number of employment opportunities. The Minister of State is familiar with Nemeton, which was established some years ago with support from Údarás na Gaeltachta and currently employs a number of people. There is a real fear in the local community that such opportunities might not exist in the future as a result of the cutbacks I have mentioned. Every- body accepts that it is difficult to get finance, but it is wrong to impose cutbacks in these areas. Now more than ever, we need to make sure we maximise the opportunities in all areas, including areas of high unemployment like An Rinn. There are good and proven examples of jobs being created in such areas as a result of grant support given through Údarás na Gaeltachta to organisations, individuals and established companies. If any of that is lost or diluted, it will have a negative impact on these communities. What plans does the Minister of State have to make certain that appropriate levels of funding are provided to ensure the enterprise opportunities that present themselves in these areas can be availed of by interested individuals? We oppose cuts in the funding of Údarás na Gaeltachta, but if there are to be any such cuts, they should be minimised. The Minister of State needs to be cognisant of the impact such cuts would have on employment.

Acting Chairman (Senator Maurice Cummins): The Senator’s time is up. 700 Irish Language: 18 January 2012. Statements

Senator David Cullinane: The future of small schools is one of the big issues at the moment. The Minister of State will be aware that public meetings on this matter are taking place throughout the country. I hope he recognises that this issue is even more complex in Gaeltacht areas. Not only are there are many small schools in Gaeltacht areas, but there are many small gaelscoileanna as well. At a time when cutbacks and changes are being made, it is important for us to remember to protect and promote the Irish language. I welcome this debate. I ask the Minister of State to respond to the important points I have made.

Acting Chairman (Senator Maurice Cummins): I ask the Senator to conclude.

Senator David Cullinane: What are his plans for——

Acting Chairman (Senator Maurice Cummins): The Senator has been given a lot of latitude.

Senator David Cullinane: I would like to ask three quick questions.

Acting Chairman (Senator Maurice Cummins): The Senator has been given a minute’s latitude.

Senator David Cullinane: I am reviewing the matters I raised.

Acting Chairman (Senator Maurice Cummins): I have to call the Minister of State.

Senator David Cullinane: Go raibh maith agat.

Minister of State at the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht (Deputy Dinny McGinley): Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an deis a bhí againn dhá uair an chloig a chaitheamh ar chúrsaí Gaeilge, Gaeltachta agus teangan a phlé sa Seanad tráthnóna inniu. Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil le gach Seanadóir a ghlac páirt sa díospóireacht deimhneach, tairbheach agus fiúntach seo. B’fhiú go mór éisteacht le gach rud a bhí le rá ag gach cainteoir. Chomh fada agus is eol dom, labhair 15 Seanadóir i rith na díospóireachta. Ciallíonn sé sin gur mhian leis an cheathrú cuid den Seanad contribution a dhéanamh. Tuigim go raibh an t-am a bhí ag gach Seanadóir gairid go leor, ach mar sin féin, mhair an díospóireacht dhá uair an chloig inniu. Níl aon rud agam in éadan díospóireacht den chineálcéanna a bheith againn am ar bith, muna bhfuil rud éigin eile ar siúl agam. Ba bhreá liom bheith istigh anseo ag caint ar na pleananna, na deacrachtaí agus na buntáistí, srl., a bhaineann leis an Ghaeilge. Déanfaidh mé mo dhícheall freagraí a thabhairt ar na pointí an-thábhachtach a rinneadh inniu. B’é an Seanadóir Ó Murchú—sean-chara liom féin — an chéad Seanadóir a labhair. Ba mhaith liom aitheantas a thabhairt go pearsanta don mhéid atáádhéanamh ag an Seanadóir le blianta fada anuas ar mhaithe leis an teanga agus an cultúr. Mar Sheanadóir, cuireann sé a chuid tuaraimí chun tosaigh maidir leis na rudaí atá luaite agam. Déanann sé go leor oibre freisin ó thaobh na freagrachtaí atá aige i gComhaltas CeoltóiríÉireann agus eagraíochtaí eile. Aon áit ina bhfuil an Seanadóir Ó Murchú, is cinnte nach mbíonn an Ghaeile i bhfad uaidh. Bhíomar le chéile le blianta fada nuair a bhímid ar chomhchoistí Oireachtais. Bhí an-bhaint againn leis an straitéis atáimid ag plé agus a pléadh anseo agus thugamar cuairt ar na Gael- tachtaí srl. Táim anseo inniu mar Aire Stáit agus tá an Seanadóir anseo ag déanamh a chuid oibre chomh maith agus a bhí séádhéanamh san am sin. Ba mhaith liom sin a aithint. Ar ndóigh, d’ardaigh sé pointí tábhachtacha, ar nóstábhacht na Gaeilge, tábhacht na gcoláistí Gaeilge, an ceangal idir an teanga agus an cultúr agus cúrsaí eacnamaíochta. Aithním chomh tábhachtach agus atá na coláistí Gaeilge. Tá dhá thábhacht mhóra ag baint leis na coláistí Gaeilge. An chéad ceann ná cur chun cinn na teanga agus ag tabhairt deis do dhaltaíótaobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht, ó na cathracha agus mar sin de, dul go dtí an Ghael- 701 Irish Language: 18 January 2012. Statements

[Deputy Dinny McGinley.] tacht agus saol na Gaeltachta agus an teanga a bhlais mar atá siad sa Ghaeltacht. An dara cheann ná, mar adúirt an Seanadóir, an taobh eacnamaíochta. Rinne Seanadóirí eile tagairt do na buntáistí eacnamaíochta don Ghaeltacht a bhaineann leis na coláistí Gaeilge. Tháinig mé féin ónchúlra sin. Múinteoir a bhí ionam. Bhí mé imochónaí sa Ghaeltacht agus bhí baint agam le coláistí Gaeilge chomh maith. Chomh maith le sin, bhí mo mháthair, beannacht Dé lena hanam, ina bean tí sa teach as a dtáinig mé féin na blianta fada ó shin. Bhí daoine aici, a chuireadh iontas ort anois. Tháinig daoine ón dtaobh eile den tír ag foghlaim Gaeilge in aice liom, b’fhéidir inár dteach féin sna blianta thart. Aithnímantábhacht ag dul do na mná tí agus do na coláistí Gaeilge. Thagair Seanadóirí chomh maith do na heagrais bunmhaoinithe agus don obair atáádhéan- amh ag na heagrais uilig, 19 ar fad. Sílim go bhfuil 14 anseo sa Deisceart agus cúig sa Tuaisceart, nó b’fhéidir 12 agus seacht gcinn. Aontaím leis an Seanadóir Ó Murchú.Bhí cuid acu bunaithe sular raibh an Stát seo ar an saol. Tá cuid acu a théann siar go 1893 nó 1894. Meascaim suas i gcónaí Conradh na Gaeilge agus Cumann Lúthcleas Gael, ach ar a laghad tá an dá dream ag déanamh an rud céanna. Tá obair iontach déanta acu, ach os rud é go bhfuil cuid acu ag éisteacht liom inniu, nílim chun dul tríothu uilig. Ach aithním an obair ata déanta acu uilig. Rinne an Seanadóir Mooney cás an-láidir, a very strong case indeed. However, all I can say is that there is a review in progress — until 2 April — and it came about as a result of a North- South ministerial decision. The Senator attributes powers to me that I do not have. I may have 50% of the power or less. I have attended a number of the North-South Implementation Council meetings and nobody dominates them. They are joint affairs. We are conscious, both North and South, of the excellent work that has been carried out by the voluntary organisations down through the years. It is not my wish, nor do I know of anyone there whose wish it is, to terminate the excellent work being done by these organisations. That is the reason that at a meeting of the joint council towards the end of last year, we asked Foras na Gaeilge to carry out another review. It has three months to do that. I do not blame Foras na Gaeilge for this. After all, it was acting on instructions resulting from a decision made at the North-South Ministerial Council. I feel obliged to stand up for Foras na Gaeilge. Perhaps in his enthusiasm for the voluntary bodies, the Senator went a bit too far in castigating Foras na Gaeilge. As far as I am aware, it is a cross-Border organisation. We have complete faith in it and it is doing its best with limited resources. A review is being carried out and I cannot say anything other than that today. If I did that, I would be overstepping my responsibility as a joint chair of these meetings. It will be a joint decision and people in the other jurisdiction think along the same lines. Sin an oiread mhíniú gur mhaith liom a thabhairt agus tá súil agam go dtuigeann an Seanadóir. Ní bhaineann sé liomsa amháin. Beidh sé eadrainn go léir.

Senator Paschal Mooney: I only ask where the idea originated.

Deputy Dinny McGinley: If the Senator wants the answer to that, he will have to go to someone else. It originated in 2008 at one of these meetings. I was just an ordinary back bench Deputy then, like most Deputies at that time. The proposal was carried on then to 2009 and 2010. When I went to a meeting, the proposal was almost complete, but now in our wisdom, we — North and South — have asked for a further review. I hope there will be a strong response from these organisations and others during this review. It is now 18 January and we have until 2 April to do it. I hope there will be progress, but we do not want to trample on anyone. We must all work together. I was delighted to see here this afternoon that we are all working together, although some Senators are more positive than others. Nevertheless, those who are not as positive as others mean well. 702 Irish Language: 18 January 2012. Statements

Senator Paschal Mooney: I am trying to be positive.

Deputy Dinny McGinley: I am not referring to the Senator at all. I appreciate his contribution.

Senator Paschal Mooney: I acknowledge the Minister of State’s contribution in achieving a review.

Acting Chairman (Senator Maurice Cummins): The Minister of State, without interruption, please.

Senator Paschal Mooney: It would not have happened without him. I know that.

Acting Chairman (Senator Maurice Cummins): The Minister of State, without interruption, please.

Senator Paschal Mooney: I am trying to compliment the Minister of State.

Acting Chairman (Senator Maurice Cummins): I am not listening to compliments. The Mini- ster of State should be allowed respond without interruption. We have just ten minutes left.

Deputy Dinny McGinley: Luaigh an Seanadóir an Roinn Oideachais agus Scileanna. Tá páirt an-tábhachtach ag an Roinn i gcur chun cinn na Gaeilge agus sa straitéis. Aithníonn an Roinn an tábhacht atá aige agus sin an fáth go bhfuil coiste d’oifigigh sinsearacha bunaithe idir mo Roinn agus an Roinn Oideachais agus Scileanna. Tagann an coiste sin le chéile go rialta chun féachaint céndóigh gur féidir linn feabhas a chur ar theagasc agus ar mhúineadh na teanga sna bunscoileanna. Tá suirbhéanna ar fáil agus tá a fhios againn go léir nach bhfuil gach rud i gceart. Táimid ag tabhairt faoi sin. Luaigh duine éigin an Chomhairle um Oideachas Gaeltachta agus Gaelscolaíochta, COGG. Tá obair thábhachtach ar siúl ag COGG agus beidh páirt lárnach ag COGG sna comhráitis seo. Beidh COGG ag an gcruinniú a bheidh ar siúlamárach idir ard oifigigh mo Ranna agus ard oifigigh na Ranna Oideachais agus Scileanna. Beidh COGG ansin i lár an mhargaidh, mar is ceart dó a bheith. Bhí moltaí ann le cúpla bliain anuas — chonaic mé iad — gur cóir deireadh a chur le COGG, ach tá cinneadh déanta ag an Rialtas seo nach gcuirfí deireadh le COGG. Mairfidh COGG agus caithfimid éisteacht leis agus na moltaí agus an obair atáádhéanamh aige a chur chun cinn. Tá mise ag tabhairt tacaíochta iomlán do sin. Dúirt an Seanadóir gur ceart cuireadh a thabhairt do na heagraíochtaí bunmhaoinithe isteach ag coiste an Oireachtais. Bhí mise mar bhall den choiste Oireachtais ar feadh blianta fada, mar abhí an Seanadóir Ó Murchú agus an Seanadóir Mooney agus b’fhéidir Seanadóirí eile. Níla fhios agam cé tá ar an gcoiste anois. Nílfáth ar bith nach dtiocfaidís isteach agus nach dtabhar- faimís ardándóibh lena gcuid tuairimí a chur chun tosaigh. Nílimid ag iarraidh go mbeadh aon duine ina thost. Táimid ag iarraidh cead cainte a thabhairt do ghach duine agus aon tuairimí atá acu a fháil. Bheadh an-tairbhe ag baint leis na comhchoistí mhionlaigh agus na heagraíochtaí ag teacht isteach agus ag cur a gcuid tuairimí iláthair. Tá súil agam, cibé cén Cathaoirleach atá ar an gcoiste i láthair na huaire, go n-eagróidh séésin. Ní fadhb domsa é, ach ní hé mo chinneadh é .Tá súil agam go mbeidh éinne atá ina bhall den choiste sin i dteagmháil leis an gCathaoirleach agus go mbeidh deis ag na heagraíochtaí teacht isteach mar a bhí san am a chuaigh thart. Ba mhaith liom tagairt don mhéad a bhí le rá ag an Seanadóir Noone. Dúirt sí nach raibh sí líofa sa Ghaeilge agus nach bhfuil aon rud fá choinne sin. B’fhéidir gur sin an cruthú dúinn — duine cosúil leí féinabhí sa Ghaeltacht agus a bhfuil oideachas dara agus gach leibhéil eile 703 Irish Language: 18 January 2012. Statements

[Deputy Dinny McGinley.] aici a deireann nach bhuil muinín aici inti féin an Ghaeilge a labhairt. Sin í an fhadhb atá againn. Sin an dúshlánatá againn, go dtabharfaimid deis do dhaoine cosúil leis an Seanadóir Noone, atá fábharach don Ghaeilge agus atá sásta tacaíocht a thabhairt don Ghaeilge agus an méid atá aici a labhairt, a bheith níos líofa. Sin an rud atá i gcroí na straitéise, go mbeidh dúbail ar an méid cainteoirí Gaeilge sa tírfá chionn 20 bliain. Is dúshlánmór é.Níl aon mhaitheas le bheith ag díriú isteach ar dhuine cosúil liomsa nó leis na SeanadóiríÓMurchú nóÓDomhnaill, mar tá an Ghaeilge againn ar fad. Caithfimid díriú ar dhaoine cosúil leis an Seanadóir Noone. Nílmé chun an Seanadóir Ní Chatháin a lua. Tá sí líofa go breá anois agus nílmé ag déanamh cigireachta nó aon rud uirthi. Bhí an-suim agam ins an méid a bhí le rá ag an Seanadóir Quinn, fear gnó ar dóigh, agus ins an dearcadh a bhí aige. Chonaic mé na comharthaí thuas ina chuid siopaí féin, “Díol do chuid airgid anseo”, “Ná tabhair leat gan díol” agus mar sin de, agus na hainmneacha dátheangach, rud a d’fheicfí i gCeanada. Thug an Seanadóir samplaí maithe. Caithfimid an teanga a dhíol don phobal. Is féidir reachtaíocht agus Achtanna teanga a bheith againn agus an Ghaeilge a bheith mar theanga oifigiúil ag leibhéal na hEorpa, ag leibhéal an domhain agus ag leibhéal UNESCO, ach muna dtig linn dul i bhfeidhm ar phobal na hÉireann agus ar an ghnáth mhuintir, ní fiúé. Sin an dúshlánatá ins an straitéis. Sin an fáth go bhfuilimid ag cur €60 milliúnar fáil i mbliana, in ainneoin na deacrachtaín eacnamaíochta atá againn, ar mhaithe le sin a chur ar aghaidh. Bhí giorraithe ar gach Roinn, agus ar mo Roinn chomh maith. Ach rinne mé gach dícheall na hachmhainní a choinneáil dos na rannóga is éifeachtaí a chuirfeadh an teanga chun cinn. Aon rud atáimid ag déanamh sa Ghaeltacht, caithfidh sé a bheith teanga lárnaithe. Má fhaigheann an teanga bás ins an Ghaeltacht, cé go bhfuil na gaelscoileanna ag déanamh an- obair agus cé go mbeidh an Ghaeilge mar chuid den tírigcónaí, beidh an lúb sin ar an slabhra briste. Luaigh an Seanadóir Cullinane an tábhacht a bhaineann le fostaíocht sa Ghaeltacht agus le hachmhainní a bheith ag an údarás. B’éigean dúinn troid go láidir i mbliana. We had to fight very hard fá choinne €6 mhilliún de dheontas caipitil don údarás, an rud céanna agus a bhí aige anuraidh. Tá achmhainní de €5 mhilliúnaganúdarásféin. Mar sin beidh €11 mhilliún aige. Beidh an rud céanna ag an údarás agus a bhí aige anuraidh mar dheontas caipitil. Ní leor é.Trí bliana ó shin bhí sé ag fáil €26 milliún. Tá a fhios ag an Seanadóir Ó Domhnaill é sin. Cuireann sé iontas orm nach ndeireann séésin níos minicí.Tá a fhios sin ag an Seanadóir mar tá sé ina bhall de Údarás na Gaeltachta. I 2009, bhí an méidabhí ag an údarás anuas go dtí €16 mhilliún, i 2010 bhí sé anuas go €10 milliún agus anuraidh bhí sé anuas go dtí €6 mhilliún. Dá leanfaí leis an ngraf sin bhéadh sé anuas i mbliana go dtí €3 mhilliún, ach d’éirigh liom €6 mhilliúnafháil, buíochas don Rialtas a thug sin dom. Bhí an Seanadóir Ó Clochartaigh ag gearáin nach raibh mé ag bord an Rialtais. B’fhéidir nach bhfuil mé ag bord an Rialtais ach tá cairde maithe agam ann. Tá an Teachta Deenihan ann agus caithfidh mé aitheantas a thabhairt dó-san gur éirigh linn an t-airgead sin a fháil. Luadh príomhfheidhmeannach Údarás na Gaeltachta. Tá cinneadh déanta ag an Rialtas go mbeith an t-údarás ann. Beidh feidhmeanna fiontraíochta ag Údarás na Gaeltachta. Tá príomhfheidhmeannach sealadach ag an údarásiláthair na huaire. Tá sé sin chun a bheith ann agus tá síneadh ama tugtha dó go deireadh mhí Mhárta. Is féidir liom a rá go bhfuil rudaí ag dul ar aghaidh go han-tapaidh idir Roinn s’againne agus an Roinn Caitheachas Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe. Tá dúil agam go mbeidh dul chun cinn suntasach déanta, b’fhéidir roimh dheireadh na míosa nó go luath ina dhiaidh, maidir le príomhfheidhmeannach buan lán-aimseartha a cheapadh do Údarás na Gaeltachta, a thabharfadh muinín agus spreagadh don údarás dul ar aghaidh leis an obair atáádhéanamh aige le blianta anuas. 704 Irish Language: 18 January 2012. Statements

Luaigh an Seanadóir Ó Domhnaill nach raibh bainisteoir réigiúnach ag an údarásinDúnna nGall. Baineann ceapadh an phríomhfheidhmeannaigh leis an Rialtas ach is gnó don údarás féin na bainisteoirí réigiúnacha a cheapadh. Nuair a bhéas an Seanadóir ag an chéad chruinniú eile de Údarás na Gaeltachta, b’fhéidir go dtógfaidh sé an cheist sin arís, muna bhfuil sé tógtha aige cheana féin.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: Níl cead, de réir an mhoratóra, bainisteoir réigiúnach a cheapadh.

Deputy Dinny McGinley: Níor chuala an Rialtas é sin go fóill. Más mar sin atá, amharcfaimid ar sin chomh maith. Aontaím ar fad go bhfuil obair iontach á dhéanamh ag na gaelscoileanna. Luaigh an Seana- dóir Ní Mhoráin chomh tábhachtach is atá sé go mbéadh scrúdú cainte Gaeilge ins an teastas sóisearach. Mhol sí na coistí gairmoideachais agus na scoláirí sa chóras sin. Aontaím leis sin ar fad chomh maith. Tagaim anois go dtí an Seanadóir Ó Clochartaigh.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Céard faoin gCoimisinéir Teanga?

Deputy Dinny McGinley: Tá mé ag teacht chuige sin.

Acting Chairman (Senator Maurice Cummins): No interruptions are allowed when the Mini- ster of State is replying. The Minister of State has three minutes left. If he is allowed to reply he may reach every Senator’s questions.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Please make sure the Minister of State addresses the major issues.

Deputy Dinny McGinley: Thagair an Seanadóir Ó Clochartaigh don chomparáid a rinne mé idir an Laidin agus an Ghaeilge agus dá dtarlódh a leithéid don Ghaeilge. Bhí dearmad déanta agam gur dhúirt méé,fiú amháin. Tá an tuairim a bhí agam an lá sin fós agam sa lá atá inniu ann. Maidir leis an Choimisinéir Teanga, tá cinneadh déanta ag an Rialtas. Chuir an Seanadóir Ó Clochartaigh ceist cé a rinne an cinneadh. Rinne an Rialtas an cinneadh mar bhí ath-bhreithniú ar gach Roinn ag an Roinn Caitheachas Phoiblí agus Athchóirithe i rith na bliana ar gach líne de chaiteachas na Ranna. Ina dhiaidh sin bhí cruinniú ag an gcomh-Aireacht agus rinneadh cinnithe eagraíochtaí a chur le chéile. Cinneadh Rialtais a bhí ann go mbéadh comhthathú idir an Choimisinéir Teanga agus Oifig an Ombudsman.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: An Roinn a mhol é, mar sin.

Deputy Dinny McGinley: Iláthair na huaire tá athbhreithniú iomlán á dhéanamh ar Acht na dTeangacha Oifigiúla agus ar ról an choimisinéara chomh maith. Tááthas orm a rá go bhfuil mé iontach dóchasach faoin méid atá ag tarlú.Cé nach bhfuil sé fógraithe, tá beagnach 400 moltaí istigh go dtí seo. Idir seo agus deireadh na míosa tá mé cinnte go dtiocfaidh an oiread céanna isteach. Tá seo faoi chúram oifigigh sinsearacha mo Ranna. Rachfar tríd gach moladh acu sin go mion agus déanfar anailís ar gach ceann acu chomh maith. Beidh comhairle le fáil againn, b’fhéidir ó dhaoine nar chuir isteach moltaí—daoine acadúla, saineolaithe teanga agus daoine cosúil leis an Ollamh Colin Williams a bhí i mBaile Átha Cliath ag an deireadh seach- taine. Beimid i dteagbháil leo siúd ulig. Tuigim go maith gur seo uair chinniúnach don Ghaeilge agus go gcaithfear an rud ceart a dhéanamh. Tuigim an deacracht agus an géarchéim. Tá an cinneadh déanta ag an Rialtas agus rachaimid ar aghaidh anois. Táimid ag dul ar aghaidh leis 705 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion

[Deputy Dinny McGinley.] an athbhreithniú go bhfeicfimid caidé atá ag dul a tharlú.Níl mise chun aon fhreagra a thabhairt — níl aon fhreagra le tabhairt agam — go dtí go mbeidh an t-athbhreithniú déanta agus na moltaí go léir léite agus scrúdaithe againn. Ní shílim go mbéadh an Seanadóir ag súil go ndéan- fainn a leithéid ach oiread. Chaith an Seanadóir Ó Clochartaigh neart uisce reoite ar an straitéis. Tá alán ag dul ar aghaidh. Chuala mé ar an raidió ar maidin é.Tá sé istigh anseo ina Sheanadóir le níos lú ná bliain agus dúirt sé nártháinig aon reachtaíocht isteach don Ghaeilge go fóill. Tá mise anseo le 30 bliain agus d’fhéadfainn cuntas ar mhéara láimhe amháin an méid reachtaíocht a tháinig isteacht don Ghaeilge le 30 bliain. Tiocfaidh reachtaíocht isteach don Ghaeilge nuair a bhéas gá le reachtaíocht don Ghaeilge. Ní cluiche peile nó leadóige reachtaíocht anseo. Tiocfaidh reachtaíocht isteach nuair a bhéas gá leis. Táimid ar aghaidh go maith anois le reachtaíocht a thabhairt isteach maidir leis an mBille Gaeilge. Tá sé ráite ag an Rialtas go mbeidh séá fhoilsiú i rith na bliana seo agus tá súil as Dé agamsa go mbeidh sé reachtaithe i rith na bliana chomh maith.

Acting Chairman (Senator Maurice Cummins): I ask the Minister of State to conclude.

Deputy Dinny McGinley: Déanadh go leor pointí agus tá siad nótáilte againn. Gabhaim buíochas le gach Seanadóir, fiú an Seanadóir Ó Clochartaigh.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Go raibh míle maith agat.

Deputy Dinny McGinley: Tá súil agam, láéigin nuair is Aire na Gaeltachta é, go mbeidh gach lá mar Domhnach, agus gach Domhnach mar Domhnach Cásca. Whenever Senator Ó Clochartaigh is Minister responsible for the Gaeltacht, I wish that every day in the Gaeltacht will be like a Sunday, and every Sunday will be as good as Easter Sunday.

Rural Transport: Motion Senator Susan O’Keeffe: I move:

That Seanad Éireann:

— notes that 40% of the population lives in rural Ireland;

— notes that close to 40% of older people living in rural areas need transport, and that ‘free transport’ has no real meaning for people who have very limited access to public transport;

— notes that in 2010 the Joint Committee on Arts, Sport, Tourism, Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs recommended an authority to organise rural transport schemes;

— welcomes the Government initiatives on supporting rural transport and on developing an integrated programme for rural transport;

— commends the Government for ensuring the introduction of integrated ticketing in Dublin public transport schemes; and

— calls for the integrated rural transport system model to take account, over time, of the specific transport needs of older people in rural communities.

I welcome the Minister of State to the House and thank him for taking this debate. Rural Ireland has much in common with large American cities where the car is king. Walking in American cities is a sure sign that one is a stranger or a tourist, and asking for information 706 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion about the bus service is usually greeted with astonishment or laughter. The same could be said of rural Ireland, where walking is hardly an option for two very serious reasons. The increase in the number of cars has rendered roads less safe and the high speeds of many drivers has made walking unsafe on many local roads. Boy racers and agricultural machinery do not help, and some people try to speed on very narrow and poorly surfaced roads. They are a dangerous place for walkers. The decline of many villages means that those who need to do business need to go further afield than their local village. We do not talk about walking as an option. Walking is now a form of exercise and not a mode of transport. The bicycle is the same for rural Ireland and is solely a form of exercise. Some people have even managed to bring bicycles indoors and watch television while cycling. Cars are the lifeline for rural communities and without doubt, the advent of cars brought much to rural Ireland. Like the roll-out of electricity to homes, cars meant that rural areas were connected easily to their local towns and to neighbouring cities, and people had an independence which they did not have previously. With the great tradition of community in rural Ireland, those who were first to get a car tended to become the local driver until more cars arrived and it became the norm for all households to have a car. There was a great sense of community built up around the car but, ironically, much of that has been lost. In that great leap forward, some were left behind and inevitably those left behind were those with disabilities and the elderly. There are many different reports left on shelves in every Department but the transport and rural ageing report of 2010 published by the Centre for Ageing Research and Development in Ireland, CARDI, indicated that 37% of older people living in rural areas have a need for transport that is not being met by public or private means. That equates to thousands of older people. The report also indicated that 35% of households headed by a person over 65 have difficulty assessing public transport. That means more than three in every ten houses do not have access to transport, which is a significant figure. The research also showed that the average retired person spends as much as 57% of income on transport, which is an extraordinary figure. Is that because such people live in rural areas? The renowned Joseph Rowntree Trust in the UK carried out research confirming that transport is the major factor in the additional cost of living for pensioners living in rural communities. We know two facts: that older people have less access to transport and end up spending more on transport than their urban counterparts. That is not surprising but it is worth stating in this debate. CARDI also showed that older people in rural Ireland with limited income are often persuaded to spend money on a taxi to complete a necessary trip to the hospital or doctor or to buy food or go to the post office. Those people find it very difficult to justify spending on a taxi for a social event. That is the heart of the argument about older people in rural Ireland. We have seen too many pictures of how our older people are sometimes treated in hospitals, in care homes or in the home. We have all collectively argued, in this House and elsewhere, that such treatment cannot continue and that older people cannot and should not be treated so badly. What has forced us to this point is that we have seen the pictures on television. It is much more convenient to forget about older people isolated in rural communities, who are not seen very often. They may be able to look after themselves and be mobile but they face very long days and longer nights cut off from life, waiting for a lift or waiting for families and friends to take them somewhere. They are forced into being reliant and many people would rather not be a burden on others in asking for a lift. This is not simply because they do not want to be a nuisance but because they have pride and a memory that once they were mothers, fathers, workers, farmers and people who had a life and who were self-reliant.

707 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion

[Senator Susan O’Keeffe.]

To be reduced to asking for help — asking simply to be taken to the doctors, the shops or to collect a pension — hurts those people and reminds them of what they have lost. Those people do less, ask for less and seek the bare essentials such as going to the doctor or the hospital. This leaves people even more disconnected, and a disconnected quality of life has an impact on physical and mental health. Life is for living and it is essential that our older people live their lives to the fullest extent possible. Not being able to go anywhere, travel freely and have such choices has the most enormous impact on that quality of life. We know about the cost of drugs, GP care, hospitals and the difficulties of finding appropriate care for older people. We know how stressful that is to pockets, people and to the HSE budget. Transport must be part of the care package for older people — keeping them mobile, engaged, connected with society and their communities where they were before the simple fact of age changed that, and most of all recognising that they are needed, that they are a valuable part of society and that we want older people to be part of society. When the Minister with direct responsibility for rural transport was last in the House he talked about the importance of the rural transport programme and the need to integrate it. The rural transport programme was launched in 2006 following a pilot scheme. There are now 36 schemes operating across the country delivering services directly to the core base of older people and people with disabilities. These schemes use private transport and some have launched volunteer driving schemes. In my area the Leitrim Development Company uses some of its Pobal funding to run buses and to fund the voluntary rural lift scheme — where volunteer drivers take people to appointments and to the shops. In this case, the Leitrim Development Company provides training for volunteer drivers so that they understand how to manage and cope with older people getting in and out of cars and how to keep them safe. The work is basic and ordinary but is extraordinarily important. There is also the CLASP scheme in south-east Sligo and the County Sligo leader partnership project. We are well served with those schemes in the area. The importance of the schemes nationwide to older people must not be under- estimated. By and large they are run by people involved in the community and voluntary sector. I accept that there is a need for greater efficiency. The schemes have only been up and running for five years. When one first sets up a scheme one might do it slightly less efficiently because that is not one’s primary motivation. The main aim is to get the scheme up and running. Afterwards one discovers there are cheaper ways of doing it. I understand that the local integrated programme is proceeding. Avoiding duplication and reducing costs cannot be the sole reason for doing anything. We must continue to ensure that older people are central to any reorganisation of rural transport. It is not simply about getting people to hospital or to the GP. It must be about their life. We must explore whether there are more imaginative ways of encouraging voucher use, perhaps not all the time — we do not need to have an endless booklet of them. Would it be possible to subsidise petrol for taxis involved in rural transport, as is the case sometimes in the UK? The IFA and the ICA are involved in some community schemes. Could they be involved in a national scheme to see whether, through their members, they could provide voluntary services? Could they be part of a taskforce focused on addressing the rural transport needs of elderly people at a time when money is not plentiful? In Northern Ireland, the Rural Transport Fund has organised a scheme which will allow a voucher of £100 for a group of 17 or more people travelling in one direction. That is a limited scheme for which one cannot keep applying — one cannot go to the same pub every week — but the system recognises that sometimes people would like to go out collectively and those special occasions are encouraged. In Brack- nell Forest in the UK there is an integrated card scheme people use on buses that also allows them to use the library and the leisure centre. It reminds older people that they have a right 708 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion to use those services and to be integrated. It recognises their role in society and their need to have access to those services. I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Ring. I urge that in the context of rural transport we take seriously the needs of older people as people in the community. In particular, I thank those people across the country who have overcome many obstacles in terms of rural transport in the past five years and who continue to give great service, albeit on a limited basis. Without them, many people’s lives would be much more limited than they are. The Department must consider a more creative way of finding other means to offer vouchers in all their guises to keep supporting older people in their communities.

Senator James Heffernan: I second the motion. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Ring, to the House. It is always nice to have him present. I welcome the motion which largely reflects some of the commitments in the programme for Government. I welcome also the fact that the Government has maintained funding for the rural transport programme. A total of €9.7 million will be made available for the rural transport programme this year. While it is not as much as was allocated last year it is a somewhat similar amount. I broadly welcome the maintenance of the programme which is important. It is great that the money is being spent on the rural transport system. An audit is currently being carried out on the programme. Unfortunately, as is the case with many quasi-NGOs that were set up in the past, a great deal of the funding was spent on administration rather than the most effective delivery of services. I hope the Minister of State will examine the issue to ensure that the money is being spent in the best possible way. On the previous occasion when we discussed rural transport in the House we spoke of the fact that even though many of those surveyed were not aware that they had access to public transport every parish and community in the country has access to public transport in one form or another but it was not being used properly. In some areas there was a great deal of duplication between the various service providers, be it the HSE, the Department of Education and Skills with school buses or the rural transport programme itself. We focused in particular on school transport. School buses ferry children from rural areas to urban centres for the purpose of education. The Minister of State is well aware of the situation from his own experience. School buses operate from Monday to Friday on the required routes but the service is only for students while grandparents and other elderly people are left at home without access to towns. They are required to find a different way to get to town. Would it be possible for the school bus service to be integrated with the rural transport and other programmes? An investigation has begun by the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport into the issue. I wish it well in its work in that regard. When the Minister with responsibility for rural transport was in the House we referred to problems with the rural transport programme. I accept the programme is in its infancy but there are teething problems with it. In the main a good service is provided. However, the rural transport service is not fit for purpose. On that occasion I referred to a woman I used to collect every Thursday morning on my way to Mitchelstown. I asked her why she did not get the bus. The market is held on Thursday mornings and many people go to the town on that day. She told me that she goes home on the bus and that she sometimes got the bus to the town also but that it left too late in the morning and came home too early which meant she did not have time to do her jobs. By the time she walked around to the various shops she did not have enough time to sit down for a cup of tea. In some cases where a service is provided it is more along the lines of lip service rather than the type of service that is required. Given the back- grounds and constituencies of the Ministers of State, Deputies Ring and Kelly, they would be mindful of the economic integrity of small towns and villages. I have frequently heard a com- 709 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion

[Senator James Heffernan.] plaint from business owners in small towns — perhaps some of my colleagues have heard it as well — to the effect that the routes being operated by rural transport programmes are taking their normal business to larger towns. This issue must be considered. If the HSE and Government agencies could work together, school transport services could be provided. We all know on which day people travel to town to collect their pensions and it is widely known on which day a district nurse is in a town’s dispensary. While the school transport system need not be operated for people every day, it could be duplicated on particular days to pick people up from their homes so that they could do their business. I welcome the fact that the funding will remain, but how to spend it properly and to get value for money should be examined.

Senator Ned O’Sullivan: I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after “Seanad Éireann” and substitute the following:

“— recognises that ‘free transport’ means access for older people and helps to prevent rural isolation;

— condemns the Government’s failure to maintain investment in rural transport schemes which included cuts of 8% to the rural transport initiative in Budget 2012;

— condemns the Government decision to double school transport charges in Budget 2012 which will impact mostly on rural communities who rely on these transport services;

— notes the Government’s plans to amalgamate small rural schools in Budget 2012 which will lead to more people paying expensive school transport charges;

— condemns the Government decision to discontinue grants under the Local Improve- ments Scheme in Budget 2012 which effects rural communities;

— welcomes the Government’s support for the previous Government’s integrated ticketing scheme; and

— calls on the Government to ensure investment is maintained in rural transport schemes, that there are no further cuts to rural transport and that rural transport schemes are enhanced and developed further in the years ahead.”.

I welcome the Minister of State to the Chamber. I also welcome this timely motion tabled by my Labour Party colleagues, as it affords us an opportunity to focus on what is emerging as one of the real issues of our time, namely, the ever widening gap between city and rural life. I am not one to buy into the idea that everything is great in the cities and bad in the country. As a teacher, I lived in Dublin for many years and never bought into that idea. It is a part of the Irish legend that Myles na gCopaleen covered well in An Béal Bocht and I have always treated it with a pinch of salt. I am not placing all of the blame on the Government but there is no doubt that, since entering office, the perception of an ever increasing bias against rural Ireland has taken hold. The recent budget added fuel to this notion. Every Senator present knows what I mean. With- out going through the litany, rural Ireland has lost its post offices, is being threatened with the loss of its Garda stations — people in the cities do not appreciate our concerns in this respect — and the recent budget cut a wide range of agriculture grants, including farm assist, the rural environment protection scheme, REPS, the disadvantaged areas scheme and third level grants 710 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion for children from agricultural families. The local improvement schemes for roads have been discontinued and many small rural schools, particularly in Gaeltacht areas, have been threatened with closure. Indeed, it is more than a threat. That school transport costs have doubled will affect rural Ireland significantly. There have been cutbacks in community employment, CE, schemes. Some new charges seem unique, in that they target rural communities, for example, the dreaded assault on septic tanks. These are just a potpourri of how the approach is perceived at rural level. The division and the focus on making rural Ireland pay for everything are becoming more real.

Senator Pat O’Neill: The Senator is trying to create a division.

Senator Ned O’Sullivan: I did not interrupt anyone. My party has always stood for equality between city and town, town and country, urban and rural. We will support no Government measures that erode quality of life and the viability of rural living. This debate centres on rural transport. The rural transport initiative was introduced by the late Séamus Brennan a number of years ago. Although it was not perfect initially, it morphed into a successful programme. It is run under the aegis of Pobal on behalf of the State, but its strength is predicated on the support, involvement and commitment of rural transport groups at local level. Without such people, the programme would not work. Pobal has a national brief. Every organisation needs flexibility, but Pobal has a one-size-fits-all approach whereas it is the people on the ground who know how to top and tail their schemes to the greatest advantage of their local communities. I am glad to welcome to the Visitors’ Gallery the chairman of the national network of rural transport schemes, a former council colleague of mine, Mr. Jack Roche. He also sits on the board of LARIT, a new review group that the Government has set up to consider the future of schemes. I wish him and the group well in their deliberations. It is great that an elderly person living at the end of a bad boreen in the heart of rural Ireland and miles away from the nearest public utility can have a bus drive up to his or her door, bring him or her to the local town to do a bit of business, be it a visit to a doctor, credit union, post office or grocery shop, and get a bite to eat and drop the person back home at a time or his or her choosing. This service has enhanced the lives of people living alone in rural communities. In fact, it has made their lives. I have an expert beside me in the form of Senator White. Without this service, there would be a greater incidence of depression and suicide. Recently, a rural coroner in the south stated that, if such schemes could be enhanced and made available at night so that people, particularly elderly men, might visit their pubs for a drink or two, there would be a reduction in the number of suicides in rural Ireland. In this context, the Govern- ment’s decision to cut the budget by 8% is difficult to understand. It is a mistake and will need to be reviewed. We have seen a few U-turns already and I would like to have this matter re-examined. Regarding the discontinuation of the local improvement schemes, many of my colleagues present are former councillors and know that most of the roads in question are substandard and that those living on them do not have the wherewithal to repair and maintain them. There will be a greater sense of isolation because people’s neighbours will not be able to drive to them. Public service options such as taxis will be ruled out. This decision creates a greater dependence on rural transport schemes. Bus Éireann is the backbone of rural transport. Where there is no airport or train, there will always be a bus. The cutback of €6.2 million in Bus Éireann’s subvention will impact on rural Ireland, given that the public service obligation, PSO, routes will be at most risk. The same can be said for Iarnród Éireann, which is suffering a €15 million cutback. It is as if the Govern- ment is determined to keep people in the Pale. I am amazed that my rural colleagues in both 711 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion

[Senator Ned O’Sullivan.] Houses are not kicking up more of a fuss about this issue. I often wonder whether there would have been a greater uproar about what was happening to rural Ireland had Deputy Higgins remained in Dingle. The doubling of school transport fees is regrettable. The Minister, Deputy Quinn, has a habit of making statements that jump up and bite him when he is in government.

Senator Mary M. White: Civil servants are making the decisions.

Senator Ned O’Sullivan: In response to the 1911 budget——

(Interruptions).

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Senator O’Sullivan to conclude without interruption.

Senator Ned O’Sullivan: I apologise. I meant the 2011 budget. In response to it, the Minister stated that the introduction of a €50 school transport charge was crossing a line and that forcing families to pay such charges was limiting their children’s access to primary education. I am sure the Minister now knows that the maximum charge is as high as €220. Combined with this, the threatened closure of small schools adds to the burden on small families. The fewer the number of schools, the greater one’s reliance on public transport to bring people to them. Thanks to the attack on pupil-teacher ratios in Gaeltacht areas such as Corca Dhuibhne, for example, which runs the length of the Dingle Peninsula, there could be just one school for the entire population. The same is probably true of Connemara, Gweedore and elsewhere. The Minister of State’s heart is in the right place, as he is a rural man like the Leas-Chathaoir- leach and me. A fight must be fought. We need to get the balance right. The Government is top-heavy with the city attitude to life. This morning, the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar, stated that there would be no further tolls on our major rolls. Many people in rural areas would be well prepared to pay additional tolls when travelling to Dublin or Cork if they could be sure that revenue would be invested properly and with the right balance between urban and rural. As it stands, only some 2% of the entire transport budget is spent on rural areas, with the rest going towards motorways and cities.

Senator Mary M. White: I second the Fianna Fáil Party amendment to the motion. Represen- tatives of older people tell me of the fear, particularly in rural areas, in the aftermath of he cost-cutting budget for 2012. There is apprehension that cuts in the limited rural public transport service will be next. Currently, there are 36 rural transport companies in receipt of total funding of €10.6 million per year. Individually these companies do a good job, but there is no integrated structure of service delivery. The Fianna Fáil Party in government delivered free travel for everybody over 66 years of age, but this is of little use if one lives in a rural area with no public transport. Urban residents over 66 years can avail of free public transport in the Twenty-six Counties and the Six Counties, but that facility is practically useless to people in rural areas. My colleague, Senator Ned O’Sullivan, has drawn attention to the various cuts in services imposed by the Government. We in the Seanad have been vociferous in our opposition to the cuts in education in particular, including the proposed reduction in the allocation to DEIS schools. We put great pressure on our Labour Party colleagues in this regard. When those colleagues were on this side of the House, they were very critical and left wing in their positions. Now that they are on the other side they are rolling over for their partners in government. That said, I welcome the new connectivity whereby one Labour Party Minister can tell another that a particular decision must be rescinded. As my colleague said in regard to the new inspection regime for septic 712 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion tanks, we do not oppose efforts to improve the quality of public water supplies, but we must have a grant for those, particularly older people, who cannot afford to pay for upgrades.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: I ask the Senator to speak to the motion before us.

Senator Mary M. White: There are generally severe time restrictions on rural transport services, with no service available at the weekend or at night. As such, older people are often dependent on taxis. Figures produced by the Centre for Ageing Research and Development in Ireland, CARDI, show that older people spend an average of €70 per week on transport costs. This amounts to an additional living cost for older people in rural areas for whom the free travel pass is of little use. The first priority in terms of transport services for older people in rural areas must be to ensure their access to health services. The older people get, the greater their need to access such services. We are all living much longer, with the majority of us getting to 75 years without any serious health incapacity. At the same time, CARDI’s figures show that, on average, people attend their GP much more frequently as they get older. This is a major difficulty for elderly people in rural areas. There must be integration of services; that is simply common sense. I am sure that type of integration is in place in Germany and other European countries. It is vital that we integrate health service appointments with available public transport services. It is about connecting up the different arms of Government to enhance services. Rural transport is vital in terms of social inclusion. As part of my research for the report I produced on suicide, self-harm and depression, I spoke to older people at meetings throughout the country. On all occasions, I urged those in attendance to continue coming to such meetings. It is of benefit to people to go out and engage with others. On the other hand, the lack of a public transport service can lead to loneliness, isolation and physical and mental illness. Yester- day one of my colleagues at the Senior Helpline in Summerhill, Ms Mary Nally, explained to me how older people feel a loss to their dignity in having to ask a neighbour for a lift. These are the customs and mores of older people. I see the Minister of State, Deputy Ring, is speaking to his officials.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Senator White has 20 seconds remaining.

Senator Mary M. White: I ask the Minister of State to show some respect for the protocol of this House. The bottom line is that rural transport services must be enhanced throughout the country and there must be integration with the delivery of other services. In particular, there must be connectivity between the health service and rural transport to provide an efficient, synchronised service and to ensure people can access medical appointments.

Senator Pat O’Neill: As Fine Gael Party spokesman on transport in the Seanad, I am delighted to welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Alan Kelly, to the Chamber for this debate. He last discussed the issue of rural transport with us last September during an interesting and informative debate. Senator Ned O’Sullivan mentioned something the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, may have said in a previous life. I remind the Senator that everything that is said in this Chamber is included in the Official Report. The Senator’s party is the only organisation seeking to create a divide between urban and rural, precisely what he has accused the Government of doing.

(Interruptions). 713 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion

Senator Pat O’Neill: Senator O’Sullivan spoke about the closure of rural post offices, but that did not happen on our watch. He referred to the closure of Garda stations, but this Govern- ment has not overseen any such closures.

Senator Ned O’Sullivan: There are plans to close several stations in Cork.

Senator Pat O’Neill: He referred to the termination of agricultural grants such as REPS and so on. The reality is that this Government has defended agriculture. The Minister, Deputy Simon Coveney, secured a commitment to an allocation of €195 million this year.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Senator should confine himself to discussing the motion on rural transport.

Senator Pat O’Neill: Senator O’Sullivan raised these points.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: I chastised Senator O’Sullivan for the same reason.

Senator Pat O’Neill: I am entitled to correct his claims. His party agreed with the troika to expenditure of €160 million on agriculture this year; we have increased that to €195 million. He also claimed that the legislation on septic tanks is creating an urban-rural divide. Of the seven paragraphs contained in the Fianna Fáil amendment, three begin with the words “condemns the Government”. That is opposition for the sake of opposition. By contrast, there is only one line in the Sinn Féin amendment with which I would not agree; the rest is very constructive. The motion refers to integrated ticketing.

Senator Ned O’Sullivan: That was introduced by the Fianna Fáil Party.

Senator Pat O’Neill: I remind Fianna Fáil Members that the Oireachtas transport committee passed a motion in 1990 in regard to integrated ticketing. In November 2000 the Minister for Public Enterprise, Mrs. Mary O’Rourke, gave an undertaking that it would be introduced without delay. Nine years later, smart cards were introduced on Dublin Bus and the Luas, but there was no integration. Fianna Fáil did not bring the plan to fruition in 11 years, whereas this Government has made it operational after ten months in government. I commend the Minister of State, Deputy Kelly, on his role in maintaining funding for the rural transport programme in 2012 at 92% of the 2011 allocation. It is hoped the 8% loss can be recouped through greater efficiencies. Given the scale of the economic challenge faced by Government, with €16 billion more going out of the Exchequer last year than taken in, maintaining the rural transport budget was a remarkable achievement. This was only achieved through the making of difficult decisions in relation to other projects. Last September, I spoke about rural isolation. I acknowledge the comments of all speakers in regard to, in particular, elderly people living in rural Ireland. Unfortunately, not every older person is in a position to run a car. Those who have been widowed or who never married often live alone. For these people, a local bus service is a lifeline. For those with a partner, both of whom are elderly and not in a position to run a car, a rural transport service is the only means of their getting to the doctor, shops, pharmacy or to visit friends. I referred last September to a study published by the Society of the St. Vincent de Paul which reported that loneliness is the biggest problem experienced by older people. Sadly, in the world in which we live today, neighbours, as they might have done in times past, do not now assume a duty of care for one another. The Government must do all it can to foster a spirit of community and volunteerism. It must also do all it can within limited resources to revive rural transport services. Fine Gael has 714 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion long been committed to the concept of a reliable and sustainable transport service for rural communities. As a party with the largest cohort of rural-based Deputies and Senators, it is well aware of the vital importance of rural transport provision. The programme for Government reflects the Fine Gael policy and states that rural transport networks are vital for rural communities as a reliable and sustainable transport service and that it will seek to maintain and integrate the rural transport programme with other local transport services as much as is practicable. Ring a Link provides a service to rural people in counties Kilkenny, Carlow and south Tipperary. Its buses collect people at their doors and bring them to their local town, villages or train stations. It is an important service and it is important it is retained. I recognise that in these difficult economic times, greater efficiencies need to be achieved. The Minister of State, Deputy Kelly, stated that he intends to publish a pilot study on local integrated transport services. I look forward to hearing more detail from him in regard to this study which I understand took place in the north east and north west. On the last occasion this issue was discussed in the Seanad, I referred to the need for rural transport providers to publicise their services more and to the need for cultural change. I believe that rural transport services are of particular importance to the elderly. However, such a service should be open to all people. I am interested in hearing the statistics in regard to the profile of typical users of these services. A recent CSO study states that 50% of people in rural areas believed there was no transport service in place to support them. We must ensure people of all ages are encouraged to avail of these services. The rural transport programme was examined as part of a series of value for money reports across all Departments and areas where efficiencies could be achieved were identified, in particular in the area of administration. The Minister previously told the Dáil that he will publish the report, together with his response to all recommendations. Perhaps the Minister of State will set out the timescale in that regard. I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Kelly, for attending the House today for this debate. I look forward to his reply.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Ba mhaith liom nótáil go bhfuil leasú againn ar an Ord Pháipéar ach nach féidir é a phléós rud é nach féidir níos mó ná leasú amháin a phlé ag aon am amháin. Ba mhaith linn é a thairgeadh níos deirní. We note we have tabled an amendment which cannot be moved because only one amendment at a time can be discussed. However, Sinn Féin reserves the right to move its amendment later. Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an Aire agus an díospóireacht. This is an important debate. As one who served on the board of Bealach, a Connemara partnership, for a number of years, I realise its importance. Of all the projects in which I was involved, it was one of the most cost effective. The value for money audit referred to by Senator O’Neill highlighted the cost effectiveness of rural transport schemes and the importance of ensuring administration costs are kept to a minimum. It will be hard for individual projects to cut back in this area. It might be necessary to review the role of Pobal and the cost of the intermediary auditing system. In my experience, Pobal audits are cumbersome and take up a great deal of time. The cost involved in this regard should be re-examined. Pobal undertook an audit of the extension of the rural transport service in Connemara, at which stage there was no service in north-east Galway. The suggestion being made at the time was that the Connemara Bealach partnership should also administer the scheme in north-east Galway, which was indicative of how little civil servants understand the nature of living in rural Ireland. The co-ordinator at the time invited the person concerned to Galway and drove her 715 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion

[Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh.] around the constituency of north Connemara. It took her one day to travel from Galway city to Clifden and back around Connemara into Galway again, at which stage the person concerned realised that because the head office was located in the middle of the Gaeltacht it would be impossible for it to administer a scheme in north-east Galway. This is indicative of the mentality of particular people in the Civil Service and semi-State organisations in regard to the com- plexity of rural transport. Senator Heffernan made some good points in regard to school buses and the empty buses on our roads. This issue was discussed on numerous occasions by Bealach. A number of services provide disabled people, children and others with transport to their services. The issue that arises — I have raised this previously — is one of child safety and insurance in that it is not possible to have different cohorts of people travelling together on the same service because of insurance and child protection issues. I am not sure if that issue has been addressed in the interim. The suggestion made by Senator Heffernan, in terms of different service users availing of particular services from A to B, might be worthwhile looking into. It is all well and good for Senators to speak in the House of the Government having done well in terms of maintaining 92% of last year’s budget allocation for rural transport services. However, the issue is that successive Governments have not invested enough in rural transport and that the rural communities have always played second fiddle to urban communities when it comes to accessibility. At a time when the Government is to sign a cheque for €1.2 billion in respect of a promissory note which the people never guaranteed, an 8% cut in rural transport services should never have been considered, either by Fine Gael or the Labour Party. I remind Fine Gael and Labour Party Senators that they voted for the budget and in doing so agreed to this cut, which states that those who gambled with our economy are worth more than people in rural areas. Motoring costs have also increased as a result of the recent budget, which is a bias against people in rural communities. The price of petrol, diesel and motor tax has increased, as has the cost of running a car. I received an e-mail from an elderly man yesterday stating that as a result of this budget he will become a recluse because he cannot afford the extra €1,000 per annum to run his car. The cost of school transport for families has also doubled. This should never have been countenanced. The local school in my area is Scoil Phobail Mhic Dara in Carna. People in rural areas do not have the same choices as do people in other areas. The cuts to education, if pushed through, will have a massive impact on rural schools. A child from Carna wishing to study economics or accountancy must travel to Clifden or Galway to do so. This requires a 50 mile trip each way and there is no transport service in place to allow them do that. As such, there is no choice in terms of education. It is important that the proposed cuts in the education sector do not go ahead. In addition, there is no transport service in place. Because of cuts introduced in the budget, elderly and disabled people are being charged more for services provided through the rural transport scheme, which is detrimental taken in the context of other cuts imposed on them in the budget, including increased heating costs and so on. This issue must also be considered in the context of connectivity. There are huge connectivity problems in Galway. One of the biggest problems is Bus Éireann, which has never played ball in linking its service with the rural transport programme. It would hardly attend meetings and would not countenance changing its schedules to link up with rural transport services and should be taken to task in that regard. In addition, the rail and airport connections must be considered, as must projects such as West on Track, on which the Government is pulling back. This is not good enough because the options for people from the west who wish to travel to Dublin or out of the country for holidays, work or whatever reason are being closed down in a piecemeal fashion. One repeatedly hears the arguments that we are in tight economic 716 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion times, yet the Government will sign a cheque for €1.2 billion in promissory notes as well as a further €2 billion by the end of March. Is the Minister of State happy to stand over that? He certainly voted for the budget and had he not done so, this 8% cut would not have been necessary. In fact, the budget for rural transport should and could have been increased.

Senator Denis Landy: I welcome my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Kelly, to the House. Contrary to what has been stated in the Minister of State’s absence with regard to the divide being driven by the Labour Party between urban and rural Ireland, I am proud the Minister responsible for this issue is from my native county. He has an innate knowledge of the needs of rural Ireland and knows that places in his constituency such as Newport and Killenaule do not have mainstream transport systems and therefore require a rural transport system, as well as alternatives to what exists at present. Were one to take note of people like Colm McCarthy, the rural transport system would have been closed last year, even while Fianna Fáil was in government. It would have been closed despite the probability that Senator O’Sullivan would not have countenanced such an eventu- ality and would have resigned. The reality is that people live in communities in rural Ireland and Members seek to address the needs of those communities. The astounding figure I have come across in respect of this issue is the cost of the school and HSE transport systems, which currently stands at €200 million per annum. Although those two systems cost €200 million, they run completely separately with no connectivity, joined-up thinking or cross-usage between the them. If my son travels on a school bus to a town and if I have an appointment in the local hospital located in the same town, there is no reason I should not be able to take that bus to meet my appointment and then return home on the bus with my son at 4 p.m., thereby saving the HSE the cost of sending a taxi ambulance to and from the same point of origin and destination. Joined-up thinking is required in this regard. While the Minister of State has done some work on this issue, it should be speeded up because this budget of €200 million can be cut down and reduced. In response to and in support of much of Senator Ó Clochartaigh’s contribution, were money to be freed up from that budget of €200 million, the role of rural transport could be boosted. At present, €10.6 million is being spent on rural transport. Were even 5% to be saved from the aforementioned €200 million budget for school and HSE transport, the budget for rural transport could be doubled. There also is a role for local authorities in this regard. Although they have been kept out of the loop pretty much, I know as someone who served on a local authority for many years, like many other Members, that there is a large body of knowledge among the elected members within the local authority system that is not being tapped into in respect of where gaps exist in terms of services being needed but not being provided. There should be consultations with local government on this matter. The Minister of State should also examine the role of existing private operators who provide a service in those parts of rural Ireland neglected by Bus Éireann. It has been noted that Bus Éireann has never considered the service needs of rural Ireland. Private operators have taken up that role but in the constituency in which I live, one operator has been obliged to withdraw one such service, namely, the Mullinahone to Clonmel route. Although JJ Kavanagh & Sons provided this service for years, it is completely uneconomic and those who rely on it will lose the service. Obviously, efforts are being made to substitute the scheduled service with the Ring a Link system about which Senator O’Neill spoke and which operates in County Kilkenny and south Tipperary. Were a mechanism in place to subsidise such private operators in the same way that Bus Éireann’s public service obligation routes are subsidised, that route and necessary service could be retained. 717 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion

[Senator Denis Landy.]

In addition, the provision of a taxi-type service should be considered for those rural communities that are too small to be viable for existing taxi operators. The Minister of State is familiar with the communities to which I refer, namely, small villages in which such a service could be community-based and could link into other services in the area. I hope the Minister of State will have something positive to say in this regard. I compliment the Ring a Link system on the services it provides in my native region of south Tipperary as well as in County Kilkenny, where it provides an excellent service with a small and limited budget. I agree completely with Senator Ó Clochartaigh’s condemnation of the lack of buy-in on the part of Bus Éireann in respect of rural Ireland and I hope the Minister of State can address this issue in his deliberations in the coming months on this matter.

Senator David Cullinane: I welcome the Minister of State to the House and commend the Labour Party on tabling an important motion on an important issue. Incidentally, a Fine Gael Member mentioned that perhaps a different political party has a view to the effect that the Government is out to attack rural Ireland. I do not believe any Government has set out pur- posely to attack rural Ireland. One also must be fair, however, by stating that the consequences of decisions made, the responsibility for many of which I place on the previous Government, have undermined services in rural Ireland and the consequences therefrom are evident. I live in south County Kilkenny but come from Waterford. My grandparents came from the small County Waterford seaside village of Bunmahon. I grew up there for a number of years and went there every summer from the age of three until the age of 14 or 15. When I stayed there, it had a shop, a post office and a bus service, but most of those services now are gone. The sense of isolation felt by people in those villages that had services which have now gone is real. Senator Ó Clochartaigh mentioned earlier the consequences of, for example, increasing road tax, excise on petrol and diesel or the costs of transport in a car. These have a disproportionate impact on those who live in rural Ireland. While this may not have been the Government’s intention, it certainly is the consequence of the decision that was made in the budget. Senator Ó Clochartaigh also mentioned the issue of school transport and, again, any cuts to school transport have a disproportionate impact on children who live in rural Ireland. The consequences of such cuts are that many people now are unable to access any kind of transport to get their children from their places of residence to school simply because the service is not in place. There is a recognition from all parties, regardless of what may be done in budgets, that issues exist in rural Ireland that are peculiar to it and that one must ensure the real sense of isolation people feel must be dealt with. I wish to provide some context because the purpose of Sinn Féin’s amendment is to be helpful and it notes a number of points. For example, it notes that 40% of the people live in rural Ireland and that close to 40% of older people living in rural areas need transport. More- over, Sinn Féin believes they should have access to free transport. Sinn Féin recognises the State has a responsibility in this regard and recognises any investment that goes into any form of transport, be it public or private, in rural areas. However, I must be honest and state that Sinn Féin neither accepts nor agrees with the cut in the budget to the funding for the rural transport scheme. The cut may only be 8%, which amounts to €800,000, which some people may perceive to be quite small. However, that is precisely the point. It is quite small and I cannot understand the reason the Government would opt for such a cut. I can point out to the Minister of State that, for example, 14 special advisers have had their pay increased over and beyond what was agreed.

Deputy Alan Kelly: Not mine. 718 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion

Senator David Cullinane: While it may not be the Minister of State’s portfolio or brief, the point is a decision was made to pay them more than was agreed when the Government took office and yet the amount of money going into rural transport is being cut, which is wrong. There is a need to support whatever initiatives the Government can put in place to assist those who live in rural areas. On Monday next a public meeting is due to be held in Kill, County Waterford, in respect of the need for a post office there. Since October last, there has been no post office in the town and, as a result, people have been obliged to travel to Kilmacthomas or other nearby towns which have post offices. If there is no public transport link available, how can elderly people travel to the nearest post office to obtain their pensions? There are elderly individuals in Kill who are relying on family members who live in Waterford city, Dungarvan or other urban centres to drive them the 14 miles to the post office in Kilmacthomas and then drive them back home again. This is placing pressure on the family members to whom I refer and it is happening because various services are not available in particular areas. I am sure the Minister of State will agree that the issues to which I refer are real. Any cut in respect of the funding for transport in rural areas is wrong. I appeal to him to reverse the decision in this regard. The amount involved is €800,000, which is the equivalent of two of the golden handshakes given to certain individuals who have left the public service. It is small change in the context of overall expenditure. It is within the gift of the Government to reverse the cut. I am of the view that we should be increasing the level of investment in rural transport. When Labour and Fine Gael were in Opposition, they were very critical of what the previous Government did in respect of rural areas and of any of the cuts it made to funding. That Administration also reduced the funding available in respect of rural transport. I appeal to the Minister of State to honour the promises made by the Government parties when they were in Opposition, namely, to increase investment and support rural communities.

Senator Michael Comiskey: I wish to share time with Senator Bradford, if he comes before the House.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Is that agreed? Agreed.

Senator Michael Comiskey: I welcome the Minister of State. The rural transport scheme is very good. I come from a rural area in County Leitrim which is served by one of the 36 rural transport services. There is a similar service in Sligo and there is also one which traverses the Border. I see the buses which provide this service two or three times each week on the roads in my area. They take local people to day centres and thereby provide a service to the HSE. Perhaps it might be possible to expand the rural transport service in this regard in order that the HSE might use it rather than taxis to transport patients. Two and a half years ago, when I was a member of the Leitrim Development Company, discussions took place in respect of the establishment of a social car scheme. Such a scheme was rolled out in County Cavan and it has worked very well. I suggested that a similar scheme be launched in Leitrim and, at present, there is one in operation in the north of the county. I am aware that two or three further schemes will be established soon. Schemes of this nature are vital for elderly people who live alone and whose family members may live or work far away and, therefore, cannot drive them to the doctor, hairdresser or wherever. Social car schemes provide elderly people with a degree of freedom. Many older people have free travel passes but they cannot use them because there are no public transport services in their areas. Perhaps it might be possible to have social car services available at night. A few years ago, before the drink driving laws were tightened up, people who live in rural areas were able to drive to their local pubs and perhaps have one or two pints. They cannot do that anymore and 719 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion

[Senator Michael Comiskey.] there is a great sense of isolation among them as a result. If a scheme were put in place or if the current scheme were extended in order that these individuals might travel to their local pubs one or two nights per week, it would be of great comfort to them. The budget for rural transport is €10.6 million, which is quite a sum of money. It is important that it be maintained. I do not have much more to say on this matter, other than that I support the motion.

Senator Terry Leyden: I propose to share time with another Senator, perhaps the Leas- Chathaoirleach if he so wishes.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Unfortunately, I cannot participate while I am in the Chair.

Senator Terry Leyden: I appreciate that and I hope I have not embarrassed the Leas- Chathaoirleach in any way. I welcome the Minister of State and congratulate him on his appointment. He served in this House for some time before moving to greener fields to serve as an MEP and a Deputy. He has had a great career to date. I am delighted this motion was tabled because all the Senators who fully support integrated rural transport, school transport, etc., can make their views known. The rural transport scheme was initially piloted by Mary O’Rourke, to whom I spoke a few moments ago. Mrs. O’Rourke informed me that serving as a Deputy for the Longford-Westmeath constituency made her aware of the need for transport services in rural areas. When she was serving as Minister for Public Enterprise in 2002, she requested the then Secretary General of her Department, Mr. Brendan Tuohy, to establish a pilot scheme. The Minister of State can check the position in this regard. I am not seeking to take any credit, I am merely highlighting what was a great initiative which has proved to be very successful. It is important, therefore, it be retained. In that context, I am delighted that colleagues in both Fine Gael and Labour see the benefits it can have for those who live in rural areas. A rural transport service is provided in the area where I live, which stretches from Castle- coote to Fuerty to Oran to Ballinaheglish to Ballyfornan and into Athleague. The drivers who operate the buses on the route to which I refer have been exemplary in the context of the attention and support they have given and the kindness they have shown to local people. The driver of the bus which goes through Castlecoote, a man called Oliver Connolly, provides an excellent service. I thank him publicly on behalf of those in the area who use the service. On a particular Friday two years ago when there was a threat to the rural transport service, I availed of the local bus service and treated all the customers using it to some Jameson whiskey along the way. It was lovely because we could drive home and have a drink at the same time.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: We are discussing the rural transport initiative.

Senator Terry Leyden: Yes. I am merely providing some background information.

Senator Ned O’Sullivan: Were those with whom the Senator shared a drink county councillors?

Senator Terry Leyden: No. The rural transport service is working very well. One of the greatest initiatives ever undertaken in Irish public life was the introduction of free travel by the late, great Charles J. Haughey and the then Fianna Fáil Government. Those who try to write Fianna Fáil out of history will discover that it introduced more innovative and better schemes than any other party. Fianna Fáil is more socialist than the Labour Party and is certainly to the left of Fine Gael. 720 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion

Senator James Heffernan: That is because you were——

(Interruptions).

Senator Terry Leyden: Charles J. Haughey was Minister for Finance when free travel was introduced and he informed me how it came about. He stated that he was driving to work one day when he saw a train heading into the city without any passengers on board. This led him to suggest that free travel should be given to elderly citizens during off-peak hours in order that there might be greater use of public transport services. The scheme was very much opposed by the then Secretary General of the Department of Finance. Mr. Haughey also introduced other free schemes, including those relating to telephones and electricity. In saying all of this, I merely wish to provide a backdrop. The rural transport scheme should be placed on a statutory and permanent footing, especially as it provides very good services for those who live in rural areas. People from townlands such as Ballinaheglish, with which Senator John Kelly will be very familiar because he lives in the parish of Oran, can travel by bus to Roscommon to collect their pensions, attend the local mart, meet friends, buy groceries, have a few drinks and travel home safely. It is, therefore, a great driver of both integration and rural development. Some years ago, the then Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív, brought forward a suggestion in respect of what some members of the media very unfairly referred to as “booze buses”. This was, however, a great initiative and some publicans now provide transport of this nature for their clients in order that the latter will not contravene the new drink driving laws. The Minister of State represents a rural constituency and on television recently he referred to his rural roots. He will, therefore, be very familiar with this matter.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Senator has one minute remaining.

Senator Terry Leyden: It is a pity I do not have more time in order that I might elaborate further on this matter.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: If the Senator had stuck to discussing rural transport, he would have had more than enough time.

Senator Terry Leyden: I could provide various statistics in respect of this matter but I am sure previous speakers have done so. I wanted to outline the political backdrop, which is very important.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: That is very interesting but the Senator is wandering slightly.

Senator Terry Leyden: I am not really doing so. Facts are facts and the Minister of State can check the relevant files.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Senator is gallivanting.

Senator Terry Leyden: I accept that I am driving all round the countryside at the moment in this regard, but on a serious note, I fully support the scheme. We supported it when we were in Government. It was under threat about two years ago. We held it then and I ask all Members to support this scheme. It is a good scheme and it should be continued. It is a saviour of rural Ireland.

Senator John Kelly: I am glad to hear that Senator Leyden is finally using his free travel pass, with his hip flask on board as well. 721 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion

Senator Terry Leyden: I have not used free travel at all.

Senator John Kelly: Did he not use it that day he travelled on the bus?

Senator Terry Leyden: As it happens, I was not eligible on that day. I just want to put the record straight.

Senator John Kelly: Do not tell lies, Terry. Since 2004, I have repeatedly gone with the one headline, either through the media or through the county council, which is that a free travel pass in rural Ireland is a useless piece of paper. I called on the Fianna Fáil Government of the day to introduce a voucher system, especially at a time when we were awash with money. All of my calls fell on deaf ears. I am delighted the Minister of State here tonight is the person with responsibility for transport, because I have no doubt that when he is finished with his post, we will see the difference, unlike in the time of the Fianna Fáil Minister for Transport. I would have been as well off writing to him and just throwing it in the bin, because I was probably getting the same response anyway. I am a great supporter of rural transport schemes. In my town of Ballaghaderreen, I was involved years ago in a day care centre that had 40 to 45 elderly people attending on a two- day week basis. I was instrumental in bringing rural transport to the area, and from that point onwards, the day care centre no longer had to pay taxis to ship everybody in from a six and seven mile radius. The centre has saved a great deal of money. The Ardcarne rural transport scheme is an excellent scheme and I invite the Minister of State down some time to see how it operates. The head man of that scheme is an excellent worker. As another Senator pointed out, there are no savings and administration costs to be garnered here. These guys are working beyond the call of duty. The savings would be nil from an administrative point of view. I know the man in charge met today with representatives of the HSE to look at integrated HSE travel. Down through the years, the HSE used to deal with hospital appointments. As it suited the HSE to slash its budgets, it just stopped dealing with hospital appointments and progressed to just dealing with dialysis patients and cancer patients, and taking them for their appointments. A void developed and it was picked up by community welfare officers who organised travel for the people who could not afford it. It was still costing the taxpayer and it is still something that must be addressed. If an integrated system can be put in place to deal with that, it will be worthwhile because there will be savings down the road. I agree with the Senator who spoke about Bus Éireann. Ballaghaderreen has one bus service. It leaves Dublin for Ballina, it passes through Ballaghaderreen and it goes back to Dublin again. That is the only daily service we have in the whole county. The Minister of State’s part of the country does not have the Luas, nor does mine. His part of the country does not have the DART, nor does mine. It probably does not have a train service, nor does mine. We have the basic bus service that I just outlined. We have a very limited taxi service, yet down through the years, the county councillors always ask what are we doing with our school buses, and point out that we could be putting them to better use, but that we have never done that. I am one of those Senators who has always talked about rural isolation and connectivity for elderly and marginalised people. We cannot put a value on a rural transport scheme unless it is properly assessed for the savings that can be made by various other departments. This includes people no longer being isolated, being connected with others, being in a position to go for a hospital appointment or even go into town and have a couple of pints, rather than go to the off-licence and drink at home. Sadly, I have seen too many cases of that. It is like the community employment scheme; we cannot put a value on it. I know the Minister of State is 722 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion the right man to put this right. I look forward to him coming down to see our own scheme in operation, and I know he will be impressed.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: I call on Senator Mark Daly. I would like to inform the Minister of State that it is your prerogative to come in whenever you wish.

Senator Mark Daly: I welcome the Minister of State back to the House. The issue of rural transport is important, given the cuts that face the organisations which co-ordinate this throughout the country. The 8% cut in the 2012 budget will no doubt be felt very shortly. It is an imposition the organisations cannot afford at this time. Rural transport plays an important role in combatting rural isolation. The Minister of State will be well aware of this in his own constituency. The next issue to be debated in this House is suicide and the ever-growing issue of isolated men in rural areas taking their own lives due to the fact that they had no social interaction. That social interaction is provided to some degree by rural transport, but the Government has hit out at rural Ireland on many occasions in the budget so that we need not be too worried about a rural transport system because, soon nobody will be living in rural Ireland to transport. The Minister for Education and Skills spoke about two and three-teacher schools needing to consider their future, and the pupil-teacher ratio changes that were brought in as a result will be the death knell for some rural schools. If there is no rural school, people will not move to the area. We now have the issue of the septic tank charge, which is currently being debated at the environment committee. It would be harder to construct a more unjust attack, given the fact that people put in the tanks legally, with planning permission granted according to the regulations of the time, yet the Government will not now provide grant aid to those people to bring the septic tanks up to the required standards. It is a more fundamental issue than that, because now we have such standards and planning that there will be no new houses in rural areas that this rural transport system might facilitate. Ultimately, rural Ireland will close down. We have had a series of unconnected legislation which has the foreseeable outcome of the end of rural Ireland as we know it. We have had drink driving regulations followed by planning regulations and small schools being shut down. If we add that all together, then in 20 years people will do studies on how rural Ireland ended up and why it disappeared. The last budget had an obvious anti-rural bias, with the closure of Garda stations, so people will not feel as safe in rural areas as they should and as they are entitled. I know the Minister of State has been fighting the school transport issue. It is very hard to take on these issues in this economic climate, but increased school transport fees, added to the fear that some schools will be closed down — some parents are making the decision not to send their children to a school they fear will be closed down — all adds to the slow, long process of virtually closing down rural Ireland. I do not think we will be worrying about a rural transport scheme in 20 years, because there will not be too many people to service in rural Ireland. This is what I would like the Minister of State to take from this. I know he is doing his best and he has come to the House on a previous occasion. He has fought hard at parliamentary party and Government level to maintain funding for rural transport. Ultimately, the policy of all Governments, not only this Government but previous ones, shows a lack of joined-up thinking for the obvious and foreseeable outcome of the numerous steps which have been taken and implemented over the past 20 years. This unintended outcome is that fewer people are able to live and raise families in rural Ireland. The rural transport scheme deals with rural isolation to a degree but, as the Minister of State knows well, people cannot go to the pubs, which have all shut down, and the facilities people took for granted 20 years ago no longer exist. While I welcome the debate on the importance 723 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion

[Senator Mark Daly.] of the rural transport service it is part of a far wider debate on all the cuts, regulations and legislation introduced over the past 20 years which are having a very detrimental effect on rural Ireland. We have plans for spatial strategies and urban areas but we do not seem to have a plan that would allow people to live in rural Ireland and allow rural Ireland to thrive.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: To make it clear, a list of speakers have yet to contribute and it will pass from one side of the House to the other.

Senator Mary Moran: I welcome the Minister of State back to the House. I am delighted to support the motion and I acknowledge the great work done by the rural transport service. I repeat what everybody else has stated about how vital a service it is for rural communities throughout the country. It is not only about transport; it is also about communication and the importance of transport in providing facilities and services for people in rural communities about which Senators have already spoken. I wish to speak about my personal experience of the school transport service. My son was confined to a wheelchair and needed wheelchair transport to be taken to school. This was prior to the present Government coming to power. I wish to point out some of the problems that may exist in the system and how important it is to have communication in every area of the transport system. When we wanted him to return to school we were told we would have to apply for wheelchair transport as a bus was not on the route. He had already been on a wheelchair bus which we thought we could use again. Unfortunately we told we could not and we ended up having to hire a taxi. When I contacted the Department of Education and Skills to make an application and have the matter looked into I could not find anyone to speak to who could understand when I told them there was a bus with a wheelchair facility but we were being made use a taxi. We received a Government subsidy of 33 cent per mile but the actual cost to send him to school for the 15 weeks he was wheelchair-bound was €170 a week. We were fortunate in that sense that my husband and I were working and could afford it but since then I have met many people who cannot afford this, and when such situations arise they are absolutely stuck and it results in children not being able to go to school. A simple matter like this could have been rectified easily. Not only had we to use a taxi but a wheelchair assistant was required to travel with my son and this was an additional cost. I wanted to raise the matter from this angle. On a different note I wish to highlight the importance of rural transport by relating a story I heard at the funeral of a local businessman in Dundalk. This gentleman provided transport to neighbours in the area as no bus service existed. He was a very successful businessman in the town and was very kind as he would always stop for people on the road looking for a lift. One particular person had an unspoken understanding with him whereby she used to stand on the side of the road and if he drove past he would stop and give her a lift into town. One day he had a very important business meeting and after driving out his gate he spotted the lady standing at the bottom of the road. He opened the car door and said, “Come on, come on, I am late”. She got into the car and when they reached the town he asked where she wanted to be dropped. She answered, “Nowhere, I was just standing at the gate.”

Senator Ned O’Sullivan: That is a good one.

Senator Mary Moran: It is a very good example of community spirit.

Senator Denis O’Donovan: I support the amendment tabled by my colleague Senator Ned O’Sullivan. The rural transport scheme is wonderful but is only in its infancy. I regret that cutbacks have been made in the area. One of the first pilot schemes, the old Bantry rural 724 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion transport scheme, was in my area, and there was also a scheme in Duhallow in north Cork. These worked very successfully. We must face reality. The overall budget for transport — and it is not the fault of the Minister of State who has inherited some of this — allocates less than 2% for rural transport and any cuts to rural transport will have devastating effects. In the area I represented for years as a councillor a bus used to go to Bere Island once a week. I have been told by the manager of the west Cork rural transport scheme, which has now widened, that cuts will take place which will affect very isolated areas. This is regrettable. This morning I heard the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, giving assurances on “Morning Ireland” that while he was Minister there would be no increase in toll charges. The people living in these peninsular areas in west Cork never use a toll bridge. I suggest with respect to the Minister that if he put 10 cent on every toll in Ireland, for those who can afford to travel and use toll roads including myself, and this was put aside to increase the budget for rural transport then people living in isolated areas would have recourse to the local bingo hall, perhaps the local pub or wherever. One must not dismiss the very important remark made recently by the coroner in Kerry who attributed some suicides in males over 50 to isolation, depression and the lack of a proper transport system. The rural transport system is in its infancy. It has just got up and running. Buses, routes and drivers are in place. Instead of curtailing this I respectfully suggest that we should enhance the rural transport initiative in every way we can. A small increase in the budget for rural transport can achieve much. I occasionally call in to the office of the Bantry rural transport scheme to see how they are getting on and on this occasion I was made aware of an excellent initiative carried out in west Cork and, I am sure, replicated in other areas. It is a volunteer initiative which costs the State nothing whereby approximately 25 volunteer drivers throughout west Cork on a week on, week off basis drive people to CUH for chemotherapy or other cancer treatments. It is a wonderful initiative and this is volunteerism at its best. I hope it can be replicated. A few years ago a friend of mine suffered from cancer and one week I drove him to CUH for his treatment. We went there and back on the same day which was 70 miles each way. We should give a little more encouragement to the rural transport initiative and a small amount of financial support. I know we are in difficult times but I argue the rural transport budget should not be 1.6% or 1.7% of the national transport budget, which it is at present, but should be a minimum of 3%. It should be doubled. I ask the Minister to examine this because in doing so he would be providing small bus services to remote areas such as the Borlin Valley, Bere Island, Ahilles and the Misen Peninsula where there are no other services available. The people living in these areas do not have access to the Luas. Most of them do not even know what the word “Luas” means. While I condemn the Government, I also condemned the previous Government when I felt it had made mistakes. I have been vocal on the issue. We should not be clapping ourselves on the back for what we have achieved, as we have much more to achieve for rural Ireland. Rural transport services integration involves development. In my area the buses that come from the peninsulas and valleys around Bantry bring people to the post office, the day care centre, the very good Bantry Hospital and so on. The service is widely used and should be expanded. The buses used, as well as perhaps schools buses, could be used to allow people to socialise at weekends. If they want to come into town to have two or three pints on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday evening, the use of these buses should be facilitated in some way. We clap ourselves on the back for reducing the number of deaths on the roads to a record low level, of which we should be proud, but at the same time parts of rural Ireland have been disadvantaged. I cannot 725 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion

[Senator Denis O’Donovan.] say, however, there should be one law on drink driving in rural Ireland. I am mature enough to know that would not work, but we should expand and develop existing services. The network is in place and a little would go a long way. I am not talking about the provision of millions of euro. We should be very wary of making cutbacks in rural transport services. The loss of one bus or the curtailment of any service, whether it be in a remote area such as the Beara Peninsula or the Sheep’s Head Peninsula where I was born and reared, has a knock-on effect in the community. While we are living in difficult times, we should encourage the development of the existing resources. I, therefore, support my colleague’s amendment.

Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport (Deputy Alan Kelly): I am delighted that Seanad Éireann has once again taken such an interest in this topic. I compliment my Labour Party colleagues on tabling the motion. It is obvious to me that social exclusion is an issue all Members of the House seek to combat. I greatly welcome, therefore, the initiative of the Members concerned in tabling the motion, as it deals with an important topic. Coming as I do from a small rural community, Portroe, which is better known for having produced the Rose of Tralee and Liam Sheedy, the manager who delivered the all-Ireland title back to Tipperary, I passionately believe public transport is not just an urban issue, even though there is a tendency to think in such terms when it comes to transport services. Rural Ireland is in my DNA. Therefore, public transport is an issue about which I am passionate. Rural people have as many, if not more, transport issues as those living in urban areas, to which a co- ordinated and cohesive response from the Government is needed. Many people living in rural areas have great difficulty in accessing transport schemes such as the rural transport scheme because they are isolated. They need a vital link to towns and villages. I have taken the opportunity to use the rural transport scheme in my home county to see the great benefits it has brought to so many in areas in which there was no other alternative transport service. The rural transport programme is organised on the ground rather than from the top down. We must keep that local knowledge at the heart of the rural transport system as we integrate it even further. As a Government, it is vital that we maintain the service and enhance and integrate it with other State transport services, where possible. The importance of transport services to rural communities is acknowledged by the following commitment included in the programme for Government: to maintain and extend the rural transport programme with other local transport services as much as is practical. Despite calls for the rural transport programme to be scrapped, funding has been maintained in 2012 at some 92% of the 2011 allocation. This funding is being provided in recognition of the important role played by the programme in combating rural isolation, particularly for the elderly. To put the programme in the context of older people, according to the 2010 figures, 56% of passenger journeys were made by persons over the age of 56 years, while 62% were made by free travel pass holders. Furthermore, 13% were made by passengers who required assistance to travel. RTP services are unique in this way and many services have passenger assistance staff on board to provide the necessary support. Drivers also assist passengers in various ways in carrying shopping, luggage, etc. That the majority of journeys tend to be door to door is an important and unique feature for many elderly people and funding of the programme facilitates the provision of such unique transport. It is clear, however, that the system and funding model in place for the rural transport programme are not sustainable in the long term. A value for money review of the programme has been carried out and is with my Department with a view to being published shortly. Without going into the details, the report points to higher than usual costs in the administration of the 726 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion programme and further demonstrates the need for efficiencies. The days of throwing money at what we believe are good ideas without having proper guidelines in place on how funding should be spent are gone. It is no longer good enough to spend money on good projects. We must spend money on the best projects and in the best way. It is vitally important that funding is concentrated on service provision over administration as we move towards integrated transport services across the country. As I have mentioned in the House previously, there is a wider context to the question of access to rural transport services. Over 50% of rural people, when asked, felt there was no public transport service available in their area, yet in many cases there may be school transport or other State funded transport services nearby that they do not consider to be public transport services. This highlights for me the obvious need to change the way we think about rural transport services, explore new ideas and think outside the box. In essence, we must think about such services in a broader integrated transport context and, in so doing, ensure we continue to meet the transport needs of rural areas. It is important also to ensure the community continues to remain at the heart of rural transport services. The last time I was in this House I spoke about the need to integrate State funded transport services. Taking 2010 as an example, €160 million was spent on the provision of school transport services; approximately €11 million was spent on the rural transport programme, while approximately €30 million was spent on Health Service Executive non-acute transport services. Until now these areas functioned independently of each other. If two of these groups were making the same journeys at or around the same time, nobody at any public service level would know about it or be motivated to think how we could integrate them. That is the way State transport services were managed under the previous Administration and the position must change. We must get a better bang for our buck when it comes to State transport services in rural and urban areas and this can only be done through providing for effective integration. There are some good examples, one of which is in Donegal where, through consultation and dialogue between the HSE and the local RTP providers, substantial savings in health transport services were made by integrating such services with the appointment times of the local health providers. Since I last addressed Members, the plans for integration of transport services have been explored further with a memorandum circulated to relevant Departments. There remains significant scope for savings and avoiding duplication of services by bringing together aspects of HSE transport, school transport, the rural transport programme, other State and non-State transport services. There will have to be an enhanced procurement process but one that is driven fundamentally from the ground up and facilitated by Government bodies. The involvement of stakeholder organisations will be absolutely necessary, particularly at local level where it is envisaged local working groups will explore opportunities for transport services integration in partnership with stakeholders. This includes agencies, voluntary and other representative organisations. That process is at an early stage in regard to its strategic development. Local communities know best their transport needs, but from now on we must provide services in an effective and co-ordinated way. That has not been happening to date, but this will have to change as part of plans to integrate services. To this end, an integrated approach to public transport provision in rural areas is being seriously examined by me and my Depart- ment. As part of this work the potential is being explored for efficiencies that can be made by bringing together aspects of HSE transport, school transport and the rural transport programme along with other services. The overall aim is to reduce duplication and costs while increasing efficiency and maintaining, developing and enhancing service provision.

727 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion

[Deputy Alan Kelly.]

The future for better integration of transport services in rural areas is not without challenges, some of which will be significant. However, we are committed to exploring the practical potential to maintain and extend the rural transport programme with other local transport services and to seeking support in exploring the possibilities of integration and in changing the way we think about rural transport services. I have received the value for money report mentioned by many Senators earlier and I also have the LITS report. That, along with a memorandum for Government, has been circulated at Government level. It is a priority for the Government to have a strategy on this area at the very earliest opportunity this year. We are considering greater integration between all the areas I mentioned. I take on board what was said previously and reiterated today regarding the need to review how Bus Éireann carries out its activities and also to consider how we can integrate how private operators do their business in some areas. One size does not fit all, whether it is in Tipperary, Donegal, Offaly, Kerry or wherever. We need to consider how we can customise transport service in local areas. We need to provide greater connectivity and involve the National Transport Authority, which oversees all transport services in the country. I concur with Senator Landy that we also need to involve local authorities. There is an issue with public transport awareness in rural areas. I agree with the Senators who said people are not aware of the rail, bus and rural transport scheme services in their areas. Many voluntary groups do work in this regard. I intend to deliver on that area because it needs to change significantly. We need to consider how to have not only greater integration but also public awareness and greater connectivity between all the services. We need transport hubs in rural areas and small towns. We need to be able to show people the alternatives to cars and that there is a public service that can meet some of their needs. There is a slight overlap with the taxi review, which I am also conducting as Senators are aware. There is a degree of market failure when it comes to taxi and hackney services in rural areas. I come from a little village with no taxi service. That issue is being addressed as part of the review that is being conducted and is with Government at the moment. A number of Senators and Deputies have mentioned that to me. I had to smirk somewhat when Senator O’Sullivan raised the issue of integrated ticketing. The ball might have been kicked off by Fianna Fáil but, by God, it was going around the pitch a long time. It was in a different century nearly. While I will acknowledge that it was kicked off there, it needed someone to ensure it was brought over the line. The Government is delighted that it has been brought over the line. We are very happy with the progress the Leap card is making and I encourage Members of this House to promote it as a great initiative that can help more people use more public transport in Dublin in particular. We hope this will expand across Ireland at some stage. As it is mentioned in the motion, I wish to update members on the Leap card. As Members know it was more than ten years in the offing but was made a priority when I came in to the Department. I am happy to report that the first phase has gone quite well with more than 34,000 cards issued to date and more than €780,000 in collective top-ups. More than 250,000 journeys have been taken to date and the daily rate for journeys is more than 20,000. People are voting with their feet with the card and I look forward to seeing additional products and functionalities being rolled out onto the card in coming months. There is a significant programme of work on the integrated ticketing Leap card. Each month during 2012 more products and services will be added to the card which will increase the volumes of users as they become aware of the greater integration. 728 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion

I thank my Labour Party colleagues for the excellent motion they tabled. I thank all Members of the House for the spirit and the way in which they made rural transport and other rural issues a political priority by debating them here regularly. I thank everyone for their comments.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Unlike his trains, the Minister of State is on time.

Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú: I wish to share my time with Senator Mooney.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Is that agreed? Agreed.

Senator Labhrás Ó Murchú: I notice that rural areas are reasonably well represented in the Chamber during this debate, which is a good sign. We are the people at the coalface in this regard and are very well aware of the huge strides that have been made in rural areas. We can remember a time when we took our lot as if it was the grace of God and we had to put up with it. Many people then pointed out the importance and potential of rural areas. I think of people such as Canon Hayes, who founded Muintir na Tíre and did fantastic work at the time, Monsignor Horan, who set up Knock airport, Canon McDyer and TJ Maher. They brought confidence back to the people. It was not long ago that people were referring to all the little homesteads that were closed, especially in the west, and saying that rural Ireland was dead. We then saw people coming back even from Britain and America and settling again. Rural people did not take it easy. They worked hard and tried to establish, very often through their own efforts, a standard of living that cities might also have. However, we should recognise there was always a partnership with the State. The importance of rural transport is no different from the importance of the DART, Luas or Dublin Bus in this city. The Minister of State and I both come from a background to understand this. If ever there was a hiccup in public transport in Dublin, it would feature on the main television news that night and probably include a vox pop. We have not even reached the level whereby we could be in a position to say that it is not as good as it was. We are still trying to build it up. If we do not provide an efficient transport system in rural areas, much of the good work will not continue and many young people will drift away from rural areas, reversing the more recent trend. I know of many young people who, when job opportunities arose, returned to rural areas because of the lifestyle, background and so on. We must always keep in touch and I applaud those people, some of whom were in the Gallery, who gave leadership on this issue. Without an organised approach to ensuring a continuation and an improvement on what we have, there is a possibility it will go down the list of priorities and might disappear from the radar alto- gether. We often talk about issues such as mental health. All of those matters are connected to isolation and there is isolation when we have no rural transport. I know the Minister of State will appreciate this. Our appeal, alongside the appeal of the Government side, is first to engage with those who have focused the issue for us, and second to ensure it is not as simple as crossing off 10% or 15% of expenditure. There are considerable social issues here and there are issues of equality as well and any Government ought to be conscious of that.

Senator Paschal Mooney: I am grateful to my colleague, Senator Ó Murchú, for the time. I welcome the Minister of State, who does not have an easy job in the current economic circumstances we are experiencing. He would be the first to admit that public transport is an issue fraught with difficulties irrespective of where one lives in Europe, where most public transport services are publicly subsidised. These services seldom make money, are not always cost- efficient and, therefore, form part of the Government’s social agenda to ensure a basic infrastructure of public transport facilities is provided for citizens. 729 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion

[Senator Paschal Mooney.]

The point made by Senator Ó Murchú and others is relevant in the context of Ireland. The Minister of State will be aware, coming from a small village, as do I in Leitrim, that there is not a great deal of public transport in such place and traditionally there has not been much because of the wide dispersal of population. I admit that I am referring primarily to the north west, the west and along the western seaboard as distinct from the rest of the country which is better served because it has a higher density of population. The question appears to be how to address the issue or square the circle. It is part of the Minister of State’s job to try to do this with limited resources. I suggest to the Minister of State that the reduction of €850,000 will have a far greater adverse impact on the rural transport scheme than on a national transport scheme. From this point of view, perhaps the Minister of State will elaborate, at some stage in the future or in the context of his presentation, on an integrated approach between Bus Éireann and the rural transport scheme, especially in the north west and the west, for example, to co-ordinate times to provide a rural transport link to the train in Sligo or Carrick-on-Shannon. My understanding is that in my county the rural transport system tends to be focused largely on arranging shopping trips at a particular time that suits people rather than having a more efficient operation. I agree with the Minister of State’s ambition to have a more efficient public service and a more efficient rural transport service, but there should be greater co-ordination between CIE, Iarnród Éireann, Bus Éireann and the rural transport scheme. If one is living in County Leitrim, especially north Leitrim, and one is looking for a job or going for an interview in Sligo, there is no public transport at all and one must thumb a lift. I have often met people thumbing lifts on the roads of Leitrim and surrounding counties. When I pick them up, most of them are going either for a job interview or for some particular reason. As Senator Ó Murchú and others have said, this is why the rural transport scheme is so vital to rural Ireland. I am pleased to note that the Minister of State supports and will continue to support the concept.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): The Senator is to be thanked for providing that transport on his own in County Leitrim. I call Senator Paul Bradford. We will try to fit in some more speakers.

Senator Paul Bradford: The Acting Chairman might call me to conclude after three minutes. That would allow some of my Labour Party colleagues to have a moment or two to comment.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): The Senator is generous with his time.

Senator Paul Bradford: I support the motion. I listened with interest in the Chamber and outside to all the contributions and I concur with virtually everything that was said. I put it to my colleagues on the Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin sides of the House that, in a sense, our good words will come to naught if we end up having a silly political divide on these motions. We are all at one about the importance of rural transport and on the need to have it properly funded and to make further progress. I recognise the advances made during recent years. This is an ideal issue under which the Seanad can come together to support the concept rather than have a silly political divide. Two amendments are before us and I do not believe it would be in any way useful to divide the House on this important rural issue of transport. I call on my colleagues to consider that they have made their case and presented the arguments and that the Minister of State has listened. Traditionally the Seanad is at its best when we speak with one voice. The Seanad can be a place of genuine political consensus where we can raise these important issues, remove the party politics and try to make social and economic progress. 730 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion

Senator David Cullinane: One can have Opposition amendments and still have agreement.

Senator Paul Bradford: Senator Cullinane has made his point and perhaps he will leave it at that. I listened to the Minister of State’s reply and I welcome his comments and his commitment. The concept of rural transport 20 years ago was quite different but it has transformed many lives in rural Ireland and it has given people an avenue to the outside world. We will debate the issue of suicide prevention presently. Rural suicide is becoming an increasingly serious phenomenon. As Senator White said earlier, under such schemes as the rural transport scheme, whereby one allows people to visit their neighbours, communities, local towns and villages, one is taking a major step forward in the advancement of mental health and the health care of the people. Rural transport plays an important role from a health perspective. I wish the Minister of State well during the course of the coming years. I welcome the progress he has made to date but a good deal more should be done. I wish to put on record my appreciation of all the groups throughout the county, most of which have worked on a voluntary basis to ensure their communities have access to rural transport. Long may this continue. I support the motion presented by the Labour Party and hope we call all agree it as a step forward.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): Senator John Whelan has a short time in which to speak. Does he wish to share it?

Senator John Whelan: I wish to share with Senator Moloney.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): That is agreed.

Senator John Whelan: I will not delay. I am heartened by the debate and discussion today. Hardly anyone could dispute the points made by Senator Ó Murchú and Mooney. Rural Ireland is fortunate to have many champions in the Seanad, all with the best interests of rural Ireland at heart. The motion has crystallised this. We are also fortunate to have in the Minister of State, Deputy Alan Kelly, someone with an interest in and an insight into this issue and with the commitment and energy to fulfil the objectives we are setting out. I am heartened by the objectives and the targets the Minister of State has set himself. Although he is a Minister of State from our side of the House, we will keep at him to ensure he achieves them to the best of his abilities and within the resources. Rural transport is not a luxury or an add-on. For years it has been seen as something that is reached at the last minute. I know of the impact Laois TRIP, the Laois rural transport company, has made in Laois and throughout the midlands since 2003. In many cases people would be unable to get into town to shop or even to make their medical appointments without the facility. It was formulated on an organic or ad hoc basis and this company and others realise we must now bring a stronger standardised formula, best practice and integration to this service in order that it can be developed. I am keen to see the Minister of State take the shackles off the rural transport companies in order that they can develop and prosper, increase their numbers and become more cost-effective. I am keen for him to address the issue of the disparity of costs from one region to another. I am conscious that my colleague, Senator Moloney, is keen to get in so I will curtain my comments at that.

Senator Marie Moloney: Others have covered the most important issues and I will not waste time and repeat everything that has been said. The Minister of State was not present last week when I spoke about suicide prevention. Rural isolation is one issue that relates to suicide, especially in older men in rural areas. The rural transport initiative study states: 731 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion

[Senator Marie Moloney.]

Inadequate transport has a particularly adverse impact on those who are disadvantaged in any way and on those in society who are most vulnerable. The impacts appear most marked in rural areas where even basic services can prove difficult to access.

I commend this Government and previous Governments on the work they have done on rural transport, especially since the Minster of State took over. I know the Minister of State’s heart is in the issue of rural transport because I have spoken to him about such issues in recent months since his election. I refer to some figures relating to Kerry South to give the Minister of State an idea of what has taken place in the area of community transport. Since 2003, Kerry community transport has experienced considerable growth, with passengers trips increasing from 34,000 in 2003 to in excess of 140,000 for 2011. These passenger numbers speak for themselves. I wish to raise another issue of which the Minister of State is aware since he kindly met a deputation from the Kerry cancer support group. I emphasise how important community transport is to the people of Kerry. If one leaves areas such as Cahersiveen — with which the Minister of State is au fait since his wife comes from that area — and Dingle, one cannot make public transport connections to Cork to have cancer treatment and be in time to make the connection back by bus. I am delighted, therefore, at the integrated approach being taken by the Minister of State. It indicates joined-up thinking, which is what we need. I know the Mini- ster of State is working with people in County Kerry because they have told me. I commend him for his work to date.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): As this debate commenced at 4.03 p.m., it can run until 6.03 p.m.

Senator Susan O’Keeffe: I thank the Minister of State for his genuine commitment to the next phase of the process which to date has been a good one. As I stated earlier, sometimes it takes time to decide whether money has been spent in the best way. We are now in the second phase of the process and the integration programme is coming into its own. This is when we will see growth and creativity. Other Senators have made it clear that this creative phase will not simply be about integrating GP, health and school services, that in the integration process in respect of those things which are seen as basic and fundamental in the lives of people, the necessary approaches will be taken to ensure social transport services. This means taking into account the needs of those people who need to travel at night and may need to travel to a train station to visit a loved one in another city or elsewhere else in Ireland. It should not be a case of looking at HSE and school bus services only. Many speakers have paid tribute to various organisations. We have had a tour around Ireland tour and it is good to remember those who work hard for persons who have been excluded. I refer to an American programme, Independent Transportation Network. It comprises a group of individuals, volunteers and business people, who have come together on a national basis to find creative ways of thinking of new schemes. We know there are many people in rural areas who would like to assist. It is not simply a matter of people living in rural areas not knowing about bus services. There are prospective volunteers who do not know they can volunteer. I would like to see the Department organising an advertising programme aimed at such individuals. For instance, cancer services in various parts of the country are helped enormously by such volunteers. Community spirit is still very strong in rural Ireland and with a little extra energy and creativity while the integration programme is under way the Department could take advantage of this spirit to push for the involvement of volunteers. I suggest it take advantage of 732 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion programmes such as the Independent Transportation Network which provides for synergy between business and volunteers. I thank all the Senators who spoke during the debate.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Leyden): I thank the Senator for her co-operation.

Amendment put.

The Seanad divided: Tá, 14; Níl, 32.

Tá

Byrne, Thomas. Ó Domhnaill, Brian. Crown, John. Ó Murchú, Labhrás. O’Brien, Darragh. Cullinane, David. O’Donovan, Denis. Daly, Mark. Reilly, Kathryn. Leyden, Terry. Walsh, Jim. MacSharry, Marc. Wilson, Diarmuid. Mooney, Paschal.

Níl

Bacik, Ivana. Henry, Imelda. Bradford, Paul. Keane, Cáit. Brennan, Terry. Kelly, John. Burke, Colm. Landy, Denis. Clune, Deirdre. Moloney, Marie. Moran, Mary. Coghlan, Paul. Mulcahy, Tony. Comiskey, Michael. Mullins, Michael. Conway, Martin. Noone, Catherine. Cummins, Maurice. O’Brien, Mary Ann. D’Arcy, Jim. O’Keeffe, Susan. D’Arcy, Michael. O’Neill, Pat. Gilroy, John. Sheahan, Tom. Harte, Jimmy. van Turnhout, Jillian. Hayden, Aideen. Whelan, John. Healy Eames, Fidelma. Zappone, Katherine. Heffernan, James.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Paschal Mooney and Ned O’Sullivan; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Susan O’Keeffe.

Amendment declared lost.

Senator David Cullinane: I move amendment No. 2:

To delete all words after “Seanad Éireann” and substitute the following:

“— notes that 40% of the population lives in rural Ireland;

— notes that close to 40% of older people living in rural areas need transport, and that ‘free transport’ has no real meaning for people who have very limited access to public transport;

— notes that in 2010 the Joint Committee on Arts, Sport, Tourism, Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs recommended an authority to organise rural transport schemes;

733 Rural 18 January 2012. Transport: Motion

[Senator David Cullinane.]

— recognises the State’s responsibility to provide public transport for its citizens, and in particular for those citizens living in remote areas;

— notes the considerable benefit which communities, and individuals accrue from such schemes, socially, financially, and in terms of community identity and spirit, which can far exceed the money expended on such schemes;

— criticises the cuts in successive budgets to funding for Rural Transport schemes, and calls for their reversal;

— notes the considerable savings that can be realised through greater co-ordination of rural transports schemes, by way of efficiencies and economies of scale, that would negate the need for any cuts to the budget for Rural Transport Schemes; and

— calls on the Government to outline the principles under which a rural transport authority or scheme would operate, and to bring forward a clear strategy for the development of an integrated programme for rural transport, and calls on the Government to ensure that such a scheme is adequately resourced and financed.”.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: I second the amendment.

Amendment put.

The Seanad divided: Tá, 15; Níl, 32.

Tá

Byrne, Thomas. Ó Domhnaill, Brian. Crown, John. Ó Murchú, Labhrás. Cullinane, David. O’Brien, Darragh. Daly, Mark. O’Donovan, Denis. Leyden, Terry. O’Sullivan, Ned. MacSharry, Marc. Walsh, Jim. Mooney, Paschal. White, Mary M. Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor.

Níl

Tellers: Tá, Senators David Cullinane and Trevor Ó Clochartaigh; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Susan O’Keeffe.

734 Suicide Prevention: 18 January 2012. Statements (Resumed)

Amendment declared lost.

Question put: “That the motion be agreed to.”

The Seanad divided: Tá, 32; Níl, 14.

Tá

Bacik, Ivana. Heffernan, James. Bradford, Paul. Henry, Imelda. Brennan, Terry. Keane, Cáit. Burke, Colm. Kelly, John. Clune, Deirdre. Landy, Denis. Coghlan, Paul. Moloney, Marie. Moran, Mary. Comiskey, Michael. Mulcahy, Tony. Conway, Martin. Mullins, Michael. Crown, John. Noone, Catherine. Cummins, Maurice. O’Keeffe, Susan. D’Arcy, Jim. O’Neill, Pat. D’Arcy, Michael. Sheahan, Tom. Gilroy, John. van Turnhout, Jillian. Harte, Jimmy. Whelan, John. Hayden, Aideen. Zappone, Katherine. Healy Eames, Fidelma.

Níl

Byrne, Thomas. O’Donovan, Denis. Cullinane, David. Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor. Ó Domhnaill, Brian. Daly, Mark. Ó Murchú, Labhrás. Leyden, Terry. Walsh, Jim. MacSharry, Marc. White, Mary M. Mooney, Paschal. Wilson, Diarmuid. O’Brien, Darragh.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Paul Coghlan and Susan O’Keeffe; Níl, Senators David Cullinane and Ned O’Sullivan.

Question declared carried.

Suicide Prevention: Statements (Resumed). Senator Maurice Cummins: I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, for returning to the House to hear our statements on suicide prevention. Members have highlighted the various sections of the community that are at major risk. It is now proven that alcohol is a contributory factor in some deaths by suicide. The issue of gambling is not often mentioned but I believe it is a major contributory factor in some cases and will continue to be a problem in the future with the significant increase in online gambling, in particular. That will increase in the years to come. Many, both young and old are accruing large debts and the worry and stress they endure is certainly driving them to the brink. This should be investigated and researched. A significant number of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender, LGBT, people are vulnerable to suicide because of the stresses they face in coming out. The key findings of Supporting LGBT Lives: A Study of Mental Health and Well-Being, which the Gay + Lesbian Equality Network, GLEN, commissioned, showed that 27% had self-harmed at least once; over 50% of those who had self-harmed did not seek any form of help and 18% had attempted suicide. It 735 Suicide Prevention: 18 January 2012. Statements (Resumed)

[Senator Maurice Cummins.] is clear from these findings that Irish LGBT people can still experience significant distress related to their identity. The Minister of State engaged in discussions on mental health on the “The Frontline” television programme this week. It was excellent and as she stated we need more such programmes to allow people to speak openly about suicide prevention and to rid ourselves of the stigma which still surrounds it. Recently I listened to a son speak of his mother at her funeral. He spoke of the darkness and pain she felt when his brother died by suicide in the late 1980s. At that time nobody spoke about it, people avoided the subject but the stigma was clearly there. Society has changed since then but we still have some way to go in that regard. We have wonderful organisations and individuals dealing with suicide prevention nationwide. We need to take a more co-ordinated approach that would pool resources for research to enable us to unite to tackle this major problem in a cohesive way. There is now the public momentum and political will for the Minister of State to deal with the issue of suicide. Society must make it clear to everybody that emotional and mental health issues are no longer taboo and can be dealt with openly, healthily and without judgement.

Senator Denis O’Donovan: With the permission of the House, I wish to share my time with Senator Mark Daly.

Acting Chairman (Senator Mary M. White): Is that agreed? Agreed.

Senator Denis O’Donovan: I cannot say I am glad to speak on this issue, but I welcome the debate and I congratulate the Minister of State, Deputy Lynch on her performance on “The Frontline”. I agree with the Leader of the House who stated this is the type of debate we need to have because people engaged sincerely with it. I would give the Minister of State a score of 11 out of ten for her performance and for fighting for the allocation of €35 million. We know from statistics that 22,000 people were admitted to psychiatric units last year. How many more people suffer from mental health issues but are never admitted? I was very moved by Senator Katherine Zappone’s contribution when she spoke from her heart last week. We need to relate to those types of experiences. I was one of the members who called for this debate in the Seanad. Le cúnamh Dé, I hope we will have a further debate on the issue of suicide prevention. I have known several people who have died by suicide. Unfortunately, it goes in flows, with three, four or five deaths in a short time. These are some of the funerals which I hate having to attend. As a society, we have not got rid of the stigma of death by suicide. Less than a year ago, I visited a family bereaved by suicide. I knew the person’s grandmother and called to offer condolences because I would not be able to go to the removal or the funeral. She held my hand when she said the person did not die by accident. I knew that, but to her, it was a shame on the family. I do not know what we can do to change that, but being more open about the problem could help to rid us of that stigma. I acknowledge it takes money to deal with issues, but we know from the experience of the previous Government that throwing money into health, when the budget soared from €8 billion to €20 billion, did not achieve the expected results. If I make one point, it is that we, as Members, should focus on our communities, talk about and visit those who are depressed and try to open up the notion of stigma and shame in families. Unless we do this as a society, the money we pump into the issue will never bring about success. I thank the Leader for having the debate and the Minister of State for attending. If not before the summer, perhaps next autumn we could have another debate on our progress. The 736 Suicide Prevention: 18 January 2012. Statements (Resumed) more we stand up as a society to discuss the issue, the better. I compliment my colleague, Senator Gilroy, on his statement. I have listened to him speak on local radio and read what he wrote in the Irish Examiner. I encourage such action. Although none of us has the answer, together we might formulate a solution for what is an awful sore on our society.

Senator Mark Daly: I welcome the Minister of State to the House and compliment her on her performance not only on “The Frontline” but around the negotiation table in the run-up to the budget. As we know, an estimated 600 people committed suicide in 2011. I mention this as an estimate as many road traffic accidents are actually suicides. The number of deaths caused by motor collisions has been lowered to approximately 200, the best figure we have seen in 30 years, but it comes at a cost. People are not going out or to the pubs as much, preferring to stay at home, perhaps isolated and drinking on their own. In some instances we have replaced one form of death with another. January has seen a shocking litany of suicides in Ireland. There were five on 1 January, three on 2 January, two on 3 January, four on 4 January, three on each of 5, 6 and 8 January, two on 9 January, with another two last Tuesday. That is just one month. We must ask, as a society, what in Ireland causes so many people to die by their own hand. I spoke to a friend of mine in the United States about attending funerals of friends who had committed suicide, recounting how many I had gone to. He told me he did not know anybody who knew anybody else who committed suicide. There is an endemic problem in our society involving those from the elderly abroad to the young people who see no future. I know the following is not related to the Minister of State’s brief but she might raise the issue as it relates to guidance counsellors, who play a very important role. A guidance counsellor walking through a school yard in December noticed one of the students acting strangely and spoke to him in the teacher’s office. The student explained how he had planned suicide. Not only was he going to kill himself but his two friends were also entered into a pact. Only for the actions of that guidance counsellor, those three students could well be dead today. Such counsellors play a very important role and nothing can compensate a family for a loss so horrendous as the loss of a loved one. Counsellors play an important role in preventing suicides, which is what we are here to discuss.

Senator Jillian van Turnhout: I welcome this debate, although like previous speakers I wish there was no need for it. I regret that I could not participate in the debate last week but I was in Cork, attending the humanist service for my late cousin, John McCarthy, founder of Mad Pride. I know he was very supportive of the Minister of State’s role. I studied the transcripts from last week so I will not relate all the statistics and figures and rather will focus on a few select points. Suicide rates in Ireland began to decline in 2005 with the launch of the national strategy, but we have witnessed a significant increase in the rates with the downturn in the economy in 2008. The Minister of State indicated in her opening statement last week the significant increase in the number of deaths of men between 35 and 54. I also learned this morning at a briefing on the economy hosted by the Oireachtas Library and Research Service, as did many of my colleagues, that the at-risk group in Ireland is those between 30 and 39, as they are most likely to be unemployed, in negative equity and have other debt issues. That is a result of their position in the life cycle. I flag this point in light of international studies which show that for every 1% increase in unemployment, there is a 0.79% rise in suicide rates. Employment offers people a sense of purpose, improves their self esteem and allows them to provide for themselves and their families. That is why the particular age group of males aged between 30 and 39 worries me. 737 Suicide Prevention: 18 January 2012. Statements (Resumed)

[Senator Jillian van Turnhout.] Every effort must be made towards job creation and retention. We should also support initiatives from the money advice and budgeting service, MABS, which I know is working with the National Office for Suicide Prevention in identifying and providing support. A leaflet has been designed on dealing with tougher economic times. The Irish Association of Suicidology is working with the Society of St. Vincent de Paul to identify and support vulnerable people. I also raise the issue of reducing access to minor tranquilisers, which is essential. Research has shown that with 12,000 deliberative self-harm presentations to accident and emergency departments, almost a third, or 3,900, involve an overdose using a minor tranquiliser. These drugs, which provide relief for people with diagnosed medical conditions, are oversupplied through prescriptions and very widely available over the Internet. Greater controls must be put in place regarding the excessive reliance on prescribing these drugs, and alternative therap- ies such as counselling should be offered where appropriate. There is also the issue of alcohol consumption, an issue on which I have spoken and voiced concern previously in the House. We know 41% of self-harm presentations in accident and emergency departments in 2010 involved the use of alcohol. Reading the transcripts from last Thursday’s debate and listening today, I note that a number of fellow Senators made a link between tougher drink-driving laws and an increased incidence of suicide among older men living in rural areas. I state categorically that a depressive illness cannot be cured by increasing alcohol consumption, and I regret any links being made in that regard. The answer is not to revisit the drink-driving limit, which has shown a demonstrated impact in reducing fatal and serious motor collisions, but rather in focusing on other initiatives, such as the rural transport issue debated earlier in this House. We can also consider work done by organisations such as the GAA, the IFA and the Men’s Shed project to tackle isolation, which must be done. Another issue relates to the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community. I join with a number of colleagues, particularly Senator Zappone, who spoke about the significant number of lesbian, gay and transgender people vulnerable to suicide because of the stress they face in coming out and the homophobia and transphobia many experience when they do. In that regard, I commend the work of the Gay + Lesbian Equality Network, GLEN, which has worked over a number of years with the support of the HSE and the National Office for Suicide Prevention. There are also initiatives taken by organisations such as BeLonG To. Such invalu- able work is done by many organisations but we must consider how to accredit that work to ensure services are safeguarded and that organisations can be encouraged to foster partnerships and collaborate. I know the Irish Association of Suicidology is working with the HSE in these initiatives, and I support that action. There is no quick fix as the problem has no one cause. No two stories leading to death by suicide are the same and the only way to have a meaningful and effective strategy is to implement it in a cross-departmental fashion. We must make the links between employment, physical and mental health and equality, to name a few. I assure the Minister of State of our support and I agree with Senator O’Donovan that this issue must be revisited. We must continue to support the Minister of State in this important work.

Senator Martin Conway: I wish to share time with Senator Coghlan.

Acting Chairman (Senator Mary M. White): Is that agreed? Agreed.

Senator Martin Conway: I have a few comments to make. I welcome the Minister of State to the House and although I did not see “The Frontline” programme on Monday night, my 738 Suicide Prevention: 18 January 2012. Statements (Resumed) wife did. She was so impressed with the performance of the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, that I went to the trouble of watching it on RTE Player afterwards. Eleven out of ten does not even justify the performance but that is what we expect from the Minister of State. We know she is capable of that. It is great to see a combined all-party effort in this regard. In fairness to the previous Govern- ment, it made tough decisions when it came to issues such as drink-driving legislation. That approach has worked as road deaths here have fallen dramatically. We must take the same approach to suicide. Senator White produced an interesting document in recent years on the issue and, likewise, Deputy Dan Neville and others have campaigned tirelessly on it. We need a focused all-party commitment to deal with the problem head-on. We must provide resources and ensure that they are made available where necessary. We must also go to schools and ensure that mental health and suicide are not taboo issues in schools. We may need to go to primary schools to identify vulnerable young people. I fully agree with the sentiments on gambling. The number of people who might have committed suicide as a direct result of gambling is probably unknown but I suggest that it is significant. I am also interested in learning the alcohol and drug consumption levels from autopsies carried out on suicide victims. Unfortunately, they are probably very high. Every person knows someone who has committed suicide and is aware of the devastation it has caused their families.

Senator Paul Coghlan: I thank Senator Conway for sharing time with me. I too welcome the Minister of State to the House and compliment her on her recent performance. Every suicide case is different but, interestingly, recently in Kerry the coroner, Mr. Terence Casey, referred to road safety legislation. In a sense he is blaming it for increased suicide rates among the older generation. He made the point that the increase in social isolation has been exacerbated by the drink-driving laws. He indicated that they are part of the problem. I do not say we should revisit the legislation but we must do something about rural isolation. He stated that drink-driving laws may be reducing the number of deaths on the roads but they are leading to increased suicide rates among older people. He outlined that more than one third of all suicide cases heard at inquests in Kerry in 2011 involved people aged over 60 and he highlighted rural isolation as a major contributor. The cases usually involved single or widowed men. Living alone is exacerbated by the gap in the social life in rural Ireland due to the closure of traditional meeting centres which is increasing isolation and driving suicide rates up. He highlighted the closure of post offices, bars and even creameries. With the newly lowered drink-driving laws now being enforced he believes that the problem could escalate. Mr. Casey made the point that while he dealt with three fatal road traffic accidents last year, he dealt with 11 suicides. Alcohol was a factor in the road deaths but it was not a case of a person having one or two pints. If records were examined all over the country one would find that the number of road traffic accidents involving farmers on rural roads is minimal. Most serious road traffic accidents are on main roads. One pint could now put someone over the limit and therefore people are not going out for a drink as they are afraid of being caught. People are used to going out and having one or two pints with friends but they feel they cannot do it anymore. Statistics since 2005 reveal a worrying trend among older people committing suicide. Of the inquests heard, there have been 67 suicide victims in that period, 41 of whom were over 40 years of age, representing a shocking 61% of all suicides. The coroner in Kerry also said that post mortem examinations revealed that it is a common misconception to blame alcohol or drugs for the high level of suicides. During last year alone there were just two cases 739 Suicide Prevention: 18 January 2012. Statements (Resumed)

[Senator Paul Coghlan.] with traces of alcohol. In practically 90% of reports there were previous signs of depression and treatment for depression. We must address rural isolation.

Senator Mary Moran: I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch to the House. I welcome also the heightened publicity on suicide awareness. I thank the Minister of State for being so determined in highlighting mental health issues since taking office. Medication for some people with mental health problems can be vital in their path to recovery. I urge non-qualified people to speak with caution when they encourage people to come off their medication. Recently, I listened to one person practically urging people to come off anti-depressant medication. I urge caution because that can be extremely dangerous. We all know that one should come off anti-depressant medication over a considerable period. In a perfect world it would be preferable for people not to have to take medication but for people with mental health issues this is not a perfect world and sometimes it can be vital for them on their road to recovery, as well as to engage in cognitive therapy for whatever length of time it takes, be it in the short term or over several years. I repeat the call I made previously in the Seanad that people on long-term medication for mental health difficulties would be provided with a long-term medication card as sometimes the cost of anti-depressant medication can be exorbitant and add a further unnecessary strain. Since I raised the issue previously I have been contacted by several people. I recently learned of a case where a person stopped taking medication because of the expense and, sadly, committed suicide several weeks later. I thank the Minister of State for listening to some of the points I raised in the Seanad previously about the unsuitability of some psychiatric institutions. I am delighted that she acknowledged the vital need for mental health services to be provided within the community. I mentioned previously about trying to get emergency help for someone and being told that there was a four and half week waiting list. We should not have to wait one minute to get help for someone who needs emergency care. The key is a community workshop. Perhaps it is time for the Minister of State to consider legislation to underpin A Vision for Change. We all agree with the strategy and the issues that have been raised. There is urgent need for the provision of mental health services in the community. A person in need of help must first build a relationship with the person treating him or her. In many cases that does not happen in institutions. We need somebody to build up trust and a relationship with those with mental health difficulties. Very often the best place to do that is in a community setting. I urge the Minister of State to consider the implementation of legislation.

Senator John Whelan: It is with some trepidation, anxiety and reluctance that I speak to this issue this evening. I listened to the debate last week and to the discussion this evening. It is a huge learning curve. It is such a delicate and sensitive matter that I am concerned in case one would hurt or cause offence to anyone. Although we have the best intentions it must be borne in mind that we are lay people and very often we speak in an ill-informed way and can sometimes make ill-judged comments. Suicide remains a mystery that torments and traumatises our society. I am glad we are discussing it. In itself, this is progress. We are not covering it up nor are we afraid to speak the word. When I started out in journalism, the instruction was that suicide could not be mentioned when doing a report. These days, journalists are encouraged to report the fact that it was a suicide and, under the guidelines, are instructed not to eulogise people as heroes, given that such eulogies can apparently trigger copycat suicides. 740 Suicide Prevention: 18 January 2012. Statements (Resumed)

I am glad that the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, has made herself available to the House for the second time in a week. That mental health has a champion at the highest level in Government is vital, as this issue needs to be addressed there. Securing €35 million for staffing, counselling and awareness raising programmes was no mean achievement. I commend the Minister of State and the Government in this regard. I pay tribute to my colleague, Senator Gilroy, who has expertise in this field and has conducted much research that has helped inform my opinion on the issue. As regards progress, it is commendable that coroners across the country are speaking out on the matter openly. The coroners in counties Offaly and Laois have put on the public record the trauma experienced by families and themselves in dealing with four, five or six suicides in a single sitting of a coroner’s court. Given that suicides were under-reported for years, this is an improvement. However, under-recording remains an issue globally. For example, when for- ensic tests are conducted on single vehicle accidents and individual drownings in New Zealand, the suicide rate can increase by as much as 20%. After being elected to the Seanad, one of the first briefings I was lucky to attend was on mental health. The briefing was organised by an all-party group and presented by Amnesty International, which I commend for strongly recommending that the issue of mental health be embedded in the primary school curriculum. Since Amnesty International is having some difficulty in advancing that cause, I call on the Minister of State to use her good offices and influence to ensure that the Department of Education and Skills does not resist such a move. If people are not to be afraid to speak the word or need not pretend to be hunky dory all of the time, we must start with young children. We must educate them on their mental health. The old adage mens sana in corpora sano, that is, a healthy mind in a healthy body, springs to mind. I commend Senator Eamonn Coghlan for his work in this regard, as his Points for Life programme has a role to play. Do I have one minute remaining?

Acting Chairman (Senator Mary M. White): Less. The Minister of State will be called to respond at 7.25 p.m. Given that five speakers remain to contribute, everyone should be precise.

Senator John Whelan: We have the best of intentions, but too many agencies are addressing this issue. I cannot believe that there are more than 350 agencies dealing with suicide prevention and support. We need to consolidate our resources and include the topic of mental health in the curriculum. The Minister of State could appoint a mental health tsar much as Gay Byrne was appointed as a road safety tsar. If I know anything about suicide, it is that there is no cure. The only policy that will work is prevention. It is on this that our resources must be focused.

Senator Tom Sheahan: I will pick up on a comment made by my colleague, Senator Whelan. Many of us are discussing a matter we know nothing about. With this debate in mind, I visited a local counselling centre to educate myself. I compliment the Minister of State on ring-fencing €35 million for counselling services, and so on. I will provide a few statistics on the Southwest Counselling Centre in County Kerry. It provides a free emergency counselling service for people who have attempted or are actively contemplating suicide. It provides affordable counselling for a range of issues, such as depression, anxiety, panic attacks, abuse, job loss, bereavement, separation, suicide, self-harm, relationship and family problems and childhood trauma. It is the only service in Kerry providing a low-cost counselling service to individuals, couples, families, adolescents and children under 741 Suicide Prevention: 18 January 2012. Statements (Resumed)

[Senator Tom Sheahan.] one roof. No other service adopts such an inclusive approach to working with children, adolescents and families. The centre is meeting more people who are in distress. Figures for 2011 show an increase over 2010. The centre has witnessed an increase in the number of people experiencing financial strain and struggling to cope, all of which can take a serious toll on people’s mental health. The centre provides a professional service on a tight budget and every donation to the centre goes directly to providing the service. Currently, 56 people are on its waiting list for counselling. Kerry has seen a dramatic 25% increase in suicides in recent years, with suicide being the leading cause of death for young men in the county. International research shows that the current economic conditions are a factor in this increase, but a large percentage of the centre’s clients are older adults experiencing depression, anxiety and suicidal feelings. Many of these individuals are also experiencing financial and-or social disadvantage. This age group is ignored in the provision of counselling and psychological support. As Senator Paul Coghlan stated, of the 11 suicides in south Kerry last year, four of the people were older than 60 years of age and three were between 40 and 60 years of age. We must take cognisance of these facts. The centre has the professional skills to provide a counselling service throughout County Kerry. The Minister of State has ring-fenced €35 million, yet the centre is only seeking €80,000 to provide its service. Will she consider this request? The majority of the centre’s clients are adults, yet it receives no Government funding for adults presenting with mental health problems. Nor does it receive funding for suicide prevention, the topic we are debating. Having examined this issue, I now believe that 1,000 people per annum die through suicide. Between 500 and 600 are recorded as suicides and the majority of the 150 to 200 deaths by drowning are suicides. A few nights ago, a female coroner stated on a programme that coroners’ hands were tied in terms of what they could legally call a suicide. We regularly hear the phrase “death by misadventure”, yet many of those deaths could be suicides. An issue I have been raising for some time sticks in my craw. Last year, 186 people died on our roads, 45 of whom were pedestrians and nine of whom were cyclists. It is not suicidal, but anyone who walks or cycles at night without a high-visibility jacket is crazy. Doing that should be a criminal offence.

Senator Terry Brennan: I do not have much to offer, as much has been stated, but I will give my experience. I am not a counsellor, I have not been trained and I do not know what to do in such situations. One night seven or eight years ago, at about 10 p.m., I visited a man who told me that he had just had a call from a friend who told him that he felt his life was over and that he planned to commit suicide. I did not know what to say. It was quite late at night in a lonely country townland and I did not know the friend in question very well. Nevertheless, I got into my car straight away and went to this person’s home, where the woman of the house invited me in for tea and a chat. I could not tell the man where I had come from in case he realised that his friend had told me of his difficulty. This guy had been a great footballer but, for some reason, had stopped training. I could not tell him what I knew so, instead, I brought the conversation around to football and urged him to return to training as he was such a great footballer and captain of the team. He said I was not a bad player myself and we continued talking like this without him knowing what his friend had told me five minutes earlier. I cannot say that this conversation changed the young man’s decision. I have spoken to him several times since but have never said anything to him. Nor has he said anything to me. However, I am glad I went to see him that night. 742 Suicide Prevention: 18 January 2012. Statements (Resumed)

Everybody here can play a part in the battle against suicide. In particular, I compliment the Acting Chairman, Senator White, on her efforts in this area for several years. I also congratulate the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, on her commitment to action in this regard. I saw “Prime Time” on Monday night and all I can say is “Well done”; the Minister of State scores ten out of ten for that. When I went to visit the young man to whom I referred, I did not know why he had stopped training, but I decided to urge him to return to something at which he excelled and where he worked well with others. Thankfully, he is well now and is married with two children. His is a success story. We all must do whatever we can, as politicians and in our own lives, to support those suffering from mental distress.

Senator Susan O’Keeffe: I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, for coming to the House. This is not a political matter. We all care deeply for those around us, as is obvious in the concern shown in this House for those suffering from mental illness. I am the Seanad representative on the cross-party committee on mental health, which is ably assisted by Amnesty International Ireland. The committee made a submission to the Minister of State prior to the budget asking that funding for mental health be ring-fenced. We welcome the positive outcome in that regard. The very existence of a cross-party committee communicates the message to those outside the Oireachtas that this is an issue which is above politics. The Minister of State will be aware that there has been an increase in the incidence of suicide among those under 35 years, including children aged 15 and 16 years. The number of children engaging in self-harm is also growing, with 11,000 presenting to hospitals and GPs in 2010. Unfortunately, that number does not even represent the full extent of the problem. Many speakers have referred to the importance of community-based initiatives for suicide prevention. As my colleague, Senator Whelan, said, there is only intervention and prevention when it comes to suicide. I know this issue is close to the Minister of State’s heart. As she moves forward with implementing A Vision for Change, I urge her to focus on putting facilities into communities. It is the only way to go. Like Senator Whelan, I urge that space be made in the school curriculum to teach pupils the importance of emotional literacy. Children and young people should be guided in understanding that life is difficult sometimes, things change and end, and they can learn how to cope with those difficulties. One of the problems we have with urging suicide into the open and encouraging people to talk about it is that we often, unfortunately, do not have the facilities to accommodate that type of engagement. Allocating greater responsibility to the education system in this regard would be a step forward, perhaps through the civic, social and political education programme. The Government must give a clear commitment to action in this area. Members may be aware of the Lived Lives exhibition, a collaboration between Seamus McGuinness, a Clare-based artist, and Professor Kevin Malone, professor of psychiatry and mental health research at UCD. They put it well when they said they wanted to combine their methodologies to find a new language to articulate the presence of suicide in Ireland. The idea of a new language is interesting at a time when we are coming to terms with the rise in suicide, across the board but particularly among young people, and seeking ways to cope with it. Sixty- two families came forward to give a part of their life to that exhibition. Now the organisers want to bring it on a nationwide tour so that more people can experience this new articulation of language. As Senator Whelan observed, it is an issue which people find difficult to understand and discuss. Given the work and commitment involved, we have a responsibility to find a way to bring that exhibition around the country. The organisers are struggling to find a way to do so. Perhaps we can assist them through the co-operation of the Minister of State, the cross-party committee and others, including Senator White. 743 Suicide Prevention: 18 January 2012. Statements (Resumed)

[Senator Susan O’Keeffe.]

I thank the Minister of State for her work thus far. She has long been a champion of mental health. We are bound to return to this issue again and again. It is through community-based initiatives that we can increase awareness of suicide and seek to reduce its incidence.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: I welcome the Minister of State to the House. As Senator O’Keeffe rightly said, any action on suicide prevention will be sure of cross-party support. It is not a political issue. The Minister of State had a great regard for her predecessor, my good friend, Mr. John Moloney. She is carrying on the work he did in bringing forward A Vision for Change while bringing her own initiatives into play. Of the 100 psychiatric posts that were sanctioned outside of the moratorium, how many have been filled? Is the pause put in place by the HSE still in operation? As Senator Sheahan observed, mental health issues are not as tangible as physical health issues. All of us have had experience within our families and communities with people of various ages who have died by suicide, many of whom suffered in silence for a long period without receiving the assistance they required. All Governments endeavour to do their best in this area. I urge the Minister of State to continue the work begun by Mr. John Moloney in order to give a specific focus to this issue. I will not engage in the scaremongering that went on earlier in the week, but I draw a minor parallel and ask colleagues to think about it. We have been talking about the increasing levels of suicide among younger people and we all acknowledge that counselling is crucial. Guidance counselling in schools is also crucial. I will not reiterate the political points ventilated in the other Chamber. If we believe that counselling services are paramount in terms of preventing suicide — Senator Whelan stated suicide can only be prevented and not cured — how then do we square rowing back on career and guidance counsellors who are not mainstream teachers but to whom many young adults go to speak about issues affecting them, not alone in terms of their education but personally? We must examine our education system in terms of support for our young people. I agree with Senator O’Keeffe that we must continually seek to change attitudes towards mental health issues, including depression and various other illnesses. Initiatives introduced by this and previous Governments, including mental health awareness week, have been helpful but we still have a long way to go. I welcome the ring-fencing of funding for this area and the proposed upgrade of our archaic mental health facilities. St. Ita’s, Portrane has had a good track record for more than 100 years. Unfortunately, this facility was not greatly improved down through the various years by various Governments, including those in which I have been involved. We must ensure people, including physiatric patients with mental health issues, are assisted in the return to living in their communities. I was struck by Senator Brennan’s remarks in this regard. All of us have a role in this area. Issues such as loneliness and isolation were frequently mentioned in the debate. We must, as individuals, reach out to people to ensure they are not isolated. The Minister of State, Deputy Lynch, will have the full support of this side of the House in addressing problems in this area. I acknowledge that her heart is in the right place on this and ask that she attempt to have her colleagues come on board and prioritise this issue, which is a plague on our people. Improvement of the services we provide must continue. The Minister of State, in reply, might inform us of progress in relation to the appointment of the 100 posts sanctioned in this area. 744 Suicide Prevention: 18 January 2012. Statements (Resumed)

Senator Michael Mullins: I welcome the Minister of State to the House. I also welcome this debate, the contributions to which have been important in terms of how we go about addressing this problem confronted by all of us in our communities. As stated by previous speakers, it is to be welcomed that coroners are now speaking out more freely at inquests about this issue. I welcome the part being played by family members in terms of their speaking publicly about the trauma they are experiencing. A friend of mine, Mr. Peter Roche, a councillor in Galway, lost his son over a year ago through suicide. He has recently taken on the public role of ambassador for Console and is doing Trojan work visiting schools and youth clubs highlighting the trauma and hurt experienced by himself, his wife and their children as a result of his son’s suicide. I spoke to him recently and asked what issues I should highlight during this debate. He told me that many young people reach crisis point at 2 a.m. or 3 a.m. but they have nowhere to go for help. He asked me to urge the Minister of State to financially support organisations that are providing a 24/7 service. Console is one such organisation. There are many other organisations doing great work with people in difficulty. These services need to be on the high streets: they need to be visible. We must also publicise what help is available. Much has been said during this debate about medication and so on. I was recently told about a group in County Wicklow, the Institute of Complementary and Natural Medicine, which recently won an award in the UK and provides a service to people with mental health issues and suicidal tendencies. It, too, is an organisation worthy of support. The purpose of this debate is to highlight the issue of suicide. We have done a good job in doing so. The Minister of State, plays a key role in this regard. I welcome that an additional €35 million has been ring-fenced for mental health services. It is hoped a reasonable proportion of that money will be targeted specifically towards suicide prevention.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Kathleen Lynch): I thank all contribu- tors to this debate. Suicide is an issue about which we can never speak enough given the low base from which we come in terms of public understanding and our ability as a people to speak about issues of emotional distress. Our belief that emotional distress and mental well-being are not part of the entire person or human condition is unique. They are clearly part of the human condition. We have no difficulty in acknowledging our ability to solve unique problems in the world — we shine at that — but we have huge difficulty talking about the distress we sometimes experience. I am conscious of John’s recent demise and the importance of the language used around this issue. We have an inability to define what causes us mental and emotional distress. We find defining ourselves difficult. Many issues have been highlighted during this debate, including that there is no one cause or trigger of suicide. However, we must remain conscious that, as sensitive human beings, anything can trigger or cause a person to commit suicide. We must be prepared to be the nosy neighbour and to step in and ask people if everything is alright, when we perceive them to be in distress or experiencing difficulty. I agree with the comment that governments alone cannot solve this problem. It is a societal issue. We must be conscious that people sometimes find themselves in distress and we must be able to step up and ask them if there is anything we can do to relieve that distress. When one finds people respond in a way that confirms one’s sus- picions, one must then be able to point them in the direction in which a service is available. The additional €35 million that has been ring-fenced in this respect will flesh out the community psychiatric teams and put in place the psychological and straightforward counselling services to which a GP will be able to refer. In this regard, GPs will be key as they are the medical professionals within the community who everyone first approaches. A total of 90% of all those with mental illnesses approach their GP in the first instance. Heretofore, GPs have had two 745 Suicide Prevention: 18 January 2012. Statements (Resumed)

[Deputy Kathleen Lynch.] options, namely, to prescribe or to send someone to the acute unit, but this is not the point at which we should be. While psychiatrists may not like it if I suggest the last person in front of whom one should find oneself is a psychiatrist, that is the case. There should be many steps in between because not everyone needs such intensive treatment. Some simply wish to talk to someone and although others will need a little more, that is what this is about. The Government is putting in place nurses within the community. There will be two in each of the 17 health board areas who will have specific responsibility for dealing with those who present with suicidal tendencies or self-harm. They will act as roving nurses who will travel to particular GP practices, as well as dealing with accident and emergency departments. It should be noted that each year 12,000 people present themselves at accident and emergency units having self-harmed. Moreover, this is the tip of the iceberg as I am informed that at least a further 60,000 do not present at all despite having self-harmed. We must move away from current perceptions on what constitutes self-harm. When I first thought about the issue, I thought of overdosing and a person cutting himelf or herself. Are people who drink to excess not self-harming? This possibility should be considered. I recently visited an incredible service in Wexford where the big old psychiatric hospital is being closed down and the very few who still remain are determined to get out of it, even though there was resistance to this at the outset. Familiarity is comforting for all of us. There is a familiarity about working in an environment for 28 or 30 years and one is reluctant to move on. However, those who remain now wish and need to move on. This process is about day hospitals and people’s ability to walk in. It is about being able to pick up the telephone to contact a GP in the middle of the night when something serious happens and about that GP referring someone to the 24 hour service. In this context, the Government in still in consultations with the mobile providers. Heretofore, providers of listening services such as Samaritans, Console and similar organisations operated a landline-based service for which Eircom used to pick up the tab. Most distress calls are now made with mobile phones, for which there are five service providers in the State. The Government is engaged in negotiations to ensure this service also will be free. The negotiations are almost complete and dedicated numbers such as the 112 and 123 numbers which will have a specific purpose will be made available. Above all else, we must begin to examine seriously what children are being taught about emotional health. I have four grandchildren, two of whom are grandsons who are at an age at which one can communicate with them. One could joke that as they are boys, it is uncertain whether one will ever be able to communicate with them properly. To be serious, however, from a very young age, they said things like, “You have hurt my heart,” or, “You have hurt my feelings.” Consequently, it is not as though one cannot communicate what feelings are with very young children as one can; it simply needs to be appropriate. In this context, we must begin to consider how we can begin this process. It should take place in primary school. Why should we wait until young people are 12 or 13 years old, even though they all develop at a different pace, to begin to talk to them about feelings, emotions and bullying? If we are to introduce such education, we must start very early and ensure it continues right into third level and beyond. The Government is working on these matters and a working group is giving them serious consideration. I hope to have such an education programme developed because people do not live in separate boxes and suddenly develop emotional distress. Although I am told that adolescence is usually the time when psychosis begins to develop, this is only because it is the time when it is visible and becomes evident. People are emotional beings and we need to begin 746 Inland 18 January 2012. Fisheries looking at life in the round. We must consider the whole and how well we keep ourselves from a young age to when we become older. As for the 400 posts the Government has managed to secure, I note that for the two previous years 100 posts were allocated in each. Some of them were filled in the first year, but thereafter there was a pause by the HSE. I do not blame the HSE for this as it simply reflected the times and apportioning blame is a futile exercise in such matters. We now have 400 posts that will not be subjected to a pause in respect of community teams, counselling, psychology services and so on. Moreover, the Government will put in place a director, or a directorate, of mental health. I am a great believer in ensuring that when one does something, one should not obliged to do it twice. When that person is put in place, he or she will have control of the figure of €35 million and, I hope, in the future complete and total control of the entire budget for mental health services. I am conscious that not everyone who dies by suicide has mental health issues. I am conscious that there are other issues and that this is a multifaceted problem. However, while meeting people as I travel around the country, one aspect I have noticed is the isolation felt in respect of mental health. Institutions are located on the outskirts of towns and usually isolated. While they are usually beautiful buildings, they are isolated. The director must bring mental health issues into the mainstream. Dealing with mental health issues must be as commonplace as dealing with kidney stones and should become part and parcel of what we are. That is what must happen and what I hope the aforementioned director will do. Within the strategy set out in A Vision for Change there is an entire programme on suicide entitled, Reach Out, which is under constant evaluation. A working group of individuals who engage in research in, and have expertise of, this area are constantly engaged in updating and upskilling. Moreover, they make constant contributions in considering what must be done next in terms of what did not work and what will. We must be more focused because a message that will work for those aged between 15 and 19 years will not work for those aged between 35 and 45. Consequently, concentration on the focus of the message is required. I take great heart from the fact that we have in a very short period become far more open on this subject. The only thing that really matters in the context of an issue which needs to be aired is ensuring the light is allowed to shine on it. Senators have my commitment that this will be the case.

Acting Chairman (Senator Mary M. White): When is it proposed to sit again?

Senator Maurice Cummins: Ag 10.30 maidin amarách.

Adjournment Matters

————

Inland Fisheries Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: I ask the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources why oyster fishing licences are being refused for the inner Galway Bay at Clarin- bridge — the section of the western river basin fishery district — without prior consultation with fishermen or without reviewing available data on the said fishery. I wrote to the Minister on 9 December 2011. We need to issue at least 14 dredging licences to fishermen who have been refused licences to dredge the oysters. The Clarinbridge oyster is world renowned and 747 Inland 18 January 2012. Fisheries

[Senator Fidelma Healy Eames.] contributes hugely to the local economy by supporting livelihood, but most importantly to our GDP, because it is almost wholly an export industry. I spoke to Mr. Greg Forde of Inland Fisheries Ireland in Galway about this issue. He said that the non-issuance of the extra licences applied for arises as a result of the intensification of the habitat, and he referred to the obligations arising under the habitats directive. He said that in the absence of appropriate assessment required under these regulations, he was directed by the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources to ensure that the maximum number of licences does not exceed the number issued in 2010, or the average number of oyster licences issued in the past five years. That might seem fair, but the interesting thing is that some people were ill with back injuries and so on, and there is a greater demand this year. However, this is not as simple in practice. This direction is in direct contradiction of the science and generations of practice by local fishermen. The facts are that the oyster bed needs to be adequately dredged so it reproduces itself, otherwise it will not work. It is contrary to the fear of intensification. Inland Fisheries Ireland has only issued 16 dredging licences this year, which is not enough to dredge the quantity of oysters required to supply customers in France, Italy, Japan and China. France is currently experiencing a shortage of oysters, and much of the Clarinbridge oyster product goes to Paris, but the fishermen cannot supply their orders. Oysters will then grow too big for any market, resulting in poor demand and poor prices, so the lack of dredging licences actually threatens the future of the oyster business. The Minister of State is a businessman at heart.

Senator Marc MacSharry: He is a teacher.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: No. He has a good business sense — I have watched him — and he knows this does not make sense. I have spoken to the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, on the corridors, but nothing has worked yet, so I implore the Minister of State to make sure this is sorted. Fishermen have invested a great deal of time and money in rejuvenating the fisheries since the early 1990s. They cannot recoup their expenditure if they cannot get licences to dredge. Some of them are sharing a boat and it is ridiculous. Clarinbridge Oyster Fishery is happy to engage in any fishery management plan, as it wishes to see the bed sustained for generations to come. However, it is wholly unacceptable that licences are refused at the same time as the management plan is requested. This is the really important point. There needs to be adequate planning, foresight and consultation by the Department, with all the stakeholders, including the Clarinbridge Oyster Fishery, for a holistic fishery plan to be put in place, and the fishermen are only delighted to co-operate. I call on the Minister of State to ensure that the licences are reissued and that the management plan commences. I ask him to intervene so that this happens. The industry has experienced much difficulty since the early 1990s. It is now back on its feet and I do not wish to see it threatened by a bureaucratic decision and a lack of understanding of the situation until a proper management plan with evidence suggesting otherwise is produced. I wrote to the Minister on 9 December and I got an acknowledgment by e-mail. We reminded him again on 16 December and again on 13 January. Fishermen are worried. They do not have licences now. I would like the Minister of State to give me the good news. 748 Inland 18 January 2012. Fisheries

Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Deputy Brian Hayes): I apologise on behalf of the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, who is unable to be here this evening and who has asked me to take this Adjournment debate. I thank the Senator for raising the matter. Ireland has been the focus of considerable attention by EU authorities on ensuring compliance with our obligations under EU environmental law. In the context of the revised Euro- pean Communities (Birds and Natural Habitats) Regulations of 2011, which transposed the directive, Ireland now has an obligation to ensure that appropriate assessments are carried out for activities in each marine SAC. Completion of these assessments is a matter for the Depart- ment of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and I understand a programme of appropriate assessments is under way, involving the Marine institute and BIM. When completed, these will provide a comprehensive assessment and identify the objectives to be attained in the management of the many and sometimes competing activities in these areas. While completion of this work is not the responsibility of the Department of Communi- cations, Energy and Natural Resources, it impacts on Inland Fisheries Ireland, which is charged by statute with the issuance of licences for oyster fishing, under the Fisheries (Consolidation) Act 1959. In the absence of completed appropriate assessment against predetermined conservation objectives for the activities within any SAC, Inland Fisheries Ireland must ensure that there is no intensification of any activity which could affect the integrity of the SAC. This includes dredging for oysters. A precautionary approach must underpin the environmental and conservation imperatives. To do this, IFI must limit the number of licences that can be issued for 2012 to no more than the average number of licences that have been issued for that district or area over the previous five years when dredging took place. If the number of licences issued in 2011 was restricted for the same reason, then the number issued in 2012 and beyond should not exceed that number until the appropriate assessment is completed. In the context of Clarinbridge, the number of licences that have been issued in the area in recent years is as follows: 12 applied for and issued in 2006; 19 applied for and issued in 2007; 17 applied for and issued in 2008; 15 applied for and issued in 2009; 17 applied for and issued in 2010; and 17 licenses issued in 2011. Thus, the average number of licenses applied for and issued between 2006 and 2010 was 16. However, approximately 150 applications were submitted in November of 2010 for the 2011 season — there must be very good oysters down there — representing an increase of more than 900% on the average levels of application from 2006 to 2010. IFI was not in a position to issue licences to all of these applicants as this would clearly have been an exceptional intensification of the fishery and could have adversely prejudiced the ongoing issues with the protection of the SACs. Even to increase the number of licences in 2011 over and above the 2010 level would have had the potential to be viewed as a significant intensification of the fishery in the absence of compliance with the directive. Through the restriction in the number of licenses being issued, IFI has ensured that the fishery did not intensify beyond its recent levels. To date this year, 41 applications have been received for licenses, which represents an increase of more than 250% on the average between 2006 to 2010. Clearly IFI is not in a position, for the reasons I have already identified, to issue an increased number of licences for 2012 over and above 2011 levels, and much less so to accommodate all applicants. Licenses are issued in every area, including Clarinbridge, in line with the criteria approved by the board of IFI, which prioritises licences to “established fishermen”. These are defined as fishermen who can prove that they derive a substantial proportion of their income from fishing and who have the capacity and necessary resources to undertake an oyster fishery. This has 749 School 18 January 2012. Staffing

[Deputy Brian Hayes.] informed the system put in place to enable IFI to manage the issuing of oyster licences nationally. The system identifies a fair and transparent procedure on how to prioritise applications in the event that more are received than the number of licences available. Preference is given to longstanding fishermen with an established track record within the fishery. Once the appropriate assessment of all the activities within the SAC, including a management plan for each of the relevant activities is complete, conservation objectives flowing from the assessment will then dictate the level of oyster fishing permitted within the SAC.

Senator Fidelma Healy Eames: I thank the Minister of State. I was looking for licences for an extra 14 established fishermen. Does the Minister of State want the oyster industry to die? Will he submit a request to the Minister, Deputy Pat Rabbitte, to meet a deputation on the issue?

Deputy Brian Hayes: In the first instance, the Senator should make that request and I will advise the Minister that she has done so. It will be a matter for him to agree to it. I thank the Senator for raising the matter.

School Staffing Senator Darragh O’Brien: I will never again give away my place in the queue.

Deputy Brian Hayes: Another Minister of State is taking this matter.

Acting Chairman (Senator Michael Mullins): I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Ciaran Cannon.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House to take this Adjournment matter which I have tabled on behalf of the pupils, parents and teachers of the Old Borough national school, Swords, County Dublin, a Church of Ireland school covering the parish of Swords, Clonmethan, Kilsallaghan and Donabate. The cuts proposed by the Government relating to smaller schools are not only a rural issue. In many instances they affect minority faith schools such as the Church of Ireland school mentioned. I specifically highlight the fact that the change proposed by the Government to allocate 0.2 of a full-time equivalent learning support teacher for each mainstream teaching post will result in this instance in a reduction of a full-time learning support position to a part- time hours post. This is on the basis of the school being a four-teacher school with a full-time learning support teacher. This post will now be curtailed. The Old Borough national school has 104 pupils, 25 of whom avail of learning support. The knock-on effect of not having access to full-time learning support for other pupils is obvious, as the Minister of State knows from his role. I am interested to know what the proposed savings will be in this instance and many others. I put it to the Minister of State that they will be minimal and that the future cost of not allowing children who require this service to avail of it will be much greater. I simply ask that the Government re-examine this issue. Perhaps this was not the intention because I cannot believe it would be the intention of any Government to specifically target minority faith and rural schools. Will the Government consider what the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, announced with regard to being committed to a review of the measures taken in DEIS schools? 750 School 18 January 2012. Staffing

This is a very blunt instrument. On another occasion I will refer to cuts affecting other schools in my area and others in Dublin. The overall point is that this measure is unfair and targeted at smaller schools. It is cynically targeted at them on the basis that the Government does not believe it will result in mass protests. However, on Sunday evening the people of Dunmanway showed it was a major issue. It is not only a rural issue; it is an issue in north Dublin, specifically at the Old Borough national school in Swords. I am glad to say the Church of Ireland community in the area has rejuvenated in the past few decades and is growing. Any true republic would protect minority faiths schools and ensure they thrived. I do not see how in this instance a smaller Church of Ireland school losing a full-time learning support post would serve any of us well. With all sincerity, therefore, I ask the Minister of State to examine this specific case and reverse the cuts proposed. I will be interested to hear his response.

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills (Deputy Ciarán Cannon): Iam taking this Adjournment matter on behalf of my colleague, the Minister Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, and thank the Senator for raising it. No decisions have yet been taken on learning support allocations in individual schools or where full-time posts will be based in individual schools for the coming year. The allocation of learning support teaching posts under the general allocation model, GAM, is regulated under the Department’s Circular 02/05 which provides that a full-time post may be sanctioned in a school at a figure of 22 hours, although a full-time post is equivalent to 25 hours, with the excess capacity within the full post being offset against future allocations to the school for resource teaching support. Schools, including the school referred to by the Senator, have not yet been advised of their revised GAM allocations for September 2012. They will be advised of their new GAM allocations for the 2012-13 school year in the coming weeks. The position is that there are no plans to cut the overall number of learning support or resource teachers which will be provided for schools under the GAM. The GAM was introduced in 2005 based on school enrolments in 2003-04. As allocations have not been adjusted since, the current allocations do not properly reflect enrolments in schools. GAM allocations for primary schools will, therefore, be updated from September 2012, through a redistribution of the existing GAM learning support resources, based on the number of classroom teaching posts in each school in the previous school year. Classroom teacher posts are based on the previous school year’s enrolment figures. The new model will provide for a more equitable distribution of the existing GAM resources for schools based on updated enrolments. It will also ensure GAM allocations can take into account the overall demographic growth in pupil numbers in the primary school sector, while ensuring the Government does not exceed its employment control framework obligations. The revised allocation procedures will allow GAM allocations to be updated annually based on the number of classroom teaching posts in each school in the previous school year. Teaching posts previously designated for English language support will now be combined with GAM allocations to create a single simplified allocation process to cover both GAM and language support through general allocation. While the overall level of learning support resources being provided under the GAM will not change, the revised allocations will take account of updated enrolments and also revised criteria which must take into account that there are now more pupils in the overall school system than when the GAM was introduced in 2005. Therefore, it is inevitable some schools will lose posts or hours and that other schools will gain. The revised allocation process for 751 Costal 18 January 2012. Erosion

[Deputy Ciarán Cannon.] GAM and language support set out in the recent budget and teacher allocation announcements provide for an allocation of five hours per week, 0.2 of a post, to each mixed or all-boys’ school for every mainstream classroom teaching post. The Department will shortly issue a new circular to schools which will fully outline the new allocation procedures and criteria for GAM allocations in the coming school year. The circular will set out the position on the manner in which full-time positions may be allocated or maintained in schools and will also set out the manner in which post-sharing or clustering arrangements might be entered into by schools. Therefore, there may be the potential for the school referred to by the Senator to act as a base school for a full-time learning support post, while sharing the excess hours with another local school. The position can be considered once the school has been advised of its revised GAM allocation and the Department’s circular has been issued, setting out fully the criteria and allocation arrangements which will apply. I again thank the Senator for raising the matter.

Senator Darragh O’Brien: I thank the Minister of State for his response which indicates the school must await the circular which will state the current teaching post will no longer be a full-time post. The Minister of State has read the response of the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, indicating a figure of 0.2 per each full-time mainstream teaching post. This means the current full-time teaching post will not continue. I will raise this matter again, as I am not happy with the response given. I appreciate the Minister of State taking the time to give it, but he has suggested an amalgamation of English language and learning support posts will take place. Does he have any idea when the circular will be circulated to schools? Will it happen prior to the end of January?

Deputy Ciarán Cannon: It is my understanding it will be circulated prior to the end of January.

Costal Erosion Senator Marc MacSharry: I welcome back the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, and thank him for taking the time to take this Adjournment matter. He is aware of the part of the country I speak about, Strandhill in County Sligo. His Department is aware of the beach there where seasonal problems arise with shifting sands caused by rip currents. In the past six months a serious problem has arisen with coastal erosion as a result of which, as put to me today by one engineer, rock armour, sand dunes and possibly millions of tonnes of sand have been removed. An entire area of scenic walk effectively has been washed away. The amenity in Strandhill is not just for the people of Sligo. I am sure the Minister and many Members of this House have benefited from the use of what is a national tourist amenity. It is one of the major centres for surfing in Ireland facing the Atlantic but the coastal erosion disaster unfolding is a threat not just to the natural amenity of the beach and the sand dunes — what we call locally Shelly Valley and other areas — but also to Strandhill Golf Club, which is located close to it, the seafront parking area and the general amenity of the community of Strandhill. I am sure the Minister will say in his response that funds of some €47,000 and another amount of approximately €11,000 were provided for some works to be carried out but I am informed by local engineers that some of those works failed. The reality is that we have high tides every fortnight or so and each time that occurs the problem worsens. 752 Costal 18 January 2012. Erosion

I would not trouble the national Parliament with insignificant issues, particularly in these difficult times from a resources perspective, but with the Minister’s budget for these issues being cut it is essential that I point out that this is not a local issue requiring some money to be thrown at it; it is an unfolding national disaster in the context of a piece of Ireland’s coastline that is being damaged irreparably. The longer we leave it the more money it will cost and while I am conscious that the Minister’s Department, like all Departments, are somewhat strapped for cash, a report is being carried out by RPS Consulting Engineers. It has the best coastal process people in the business and while I appreciate that we might like to see the result of that report, which is anticipated in early February, I am asking the Minister in advance of that report to make available emergency funds to deal with flooding when it occurs. I have no doubt that such contingency budgets would be available or can be found but, unfortunately, we are not talking about €47,000 or €11,000 to deal with this problem. In my view and, I am sure, the view of Mr. Jim Casey, an engineer in the Department, or his private secretary, who kindly liaised with me on this issue and who I believe surfs in Strandhill, many hundreds of thousands of euro may be required.

Deputy Brian Hayes: Hopefully not on a Wednesday.

Senator Marc MacSharry: Not on a Wednesday but she is welcome any other day, as is the Minister. It is a serious issue which may take €500,000 or €600,000 to rectify but if we do not meet it head on and deal with it I fear larger funds could be required. It is not a remote section of coastline but one that is an important tourist amenity, specifically to Strandhill Golf Club and the village of Strandhill. Notwithstanding the challenges and the imminent report I confidently submit that the report will indicate that emergency funds are required and I fear that despite the generosity of the Department pre-Christmas with the €47,000 and the €11,000 we are looking at a figure of hundreds of thousands of euro. I do not wish to pre-empt what the report will state but I can tell the Minister of State it will not be recommending giving money back to the Department. I ask him to indicate his willingness to do what he can to secure that funding and make it available to address what is a natural disaster of coastal erosion at Strandhill, County Sligo.

Deputy Brian Hayes: The first Adjournment issue was on the question of oysters. I may not have much knowledge of bloated oysters but I have a significant knowledge of the coastline to which the Senator refers. It is a part of the country I know well, not least because I have played golf in Strandhill many times. It is the most beautiful part of the country underneath Queen Maeve’s grave. That stretch of water and beach is a national treasure that we all have a responsibility to look after and protect. I am well aware of its significance to the region and to Sligo in particular. I give the Senator an honest commitment that the next time I am in Sligo I will be more than happy to meet people there about this issue to see what progress we can make. I thank the Senator for raising this issue. He has been vociferous about this matter of late, and rightly so, because of the significance of the coastline. In the first instance it is a matter for the local authorities to identify the priority areas of their respective coastlines considered to be under significant threat from erosion and to put forward proposals to central Government for funding of the appropriate erosion management measures. The Office of Public Works, OPW, has a scheme in place entitled the minor flood mitigation works and coastal protection scheme or the minor scheme, as we call it, which as the Senator is aware was introduced in 2009. Under this scheme applications are considered for measures 753 Costal 18 January 2012. Erosion

[Deputy Brian Hayes.] costing not more than €500,000 in each instance. Studies are also funded under this scheme. Funding of up to 90% of the cost is available for eligible projects. The assessment includes technical, economic, social and environmental criteria. Those criteria must be satisfied before any proposal can be further considered for funding as scarce resources must be carefully prioritised. I am glad to say that in this area of capital funding we have secured the same budget in 2012 as that which we had for 2011, namely, €45 million on flood defences, and the minor flood relief scheme comes under that. It is one of the areas on which an absolute commitment has been made by Government. Over the next four to five years we hope to spend €0.25 billion in this area. We are committed to rolling out schemes throughout the country with maximum effect based on the criteria. In some cases a “do nothing” or “no activation” intervention approach might be the most appropriate management response, and international studies have borne that out. The Euro- pean Commission Eurosion study, Living with Coastal Erosion in Europe, which was completed in 2004, highlighted some important findings including the fact that some previous interventions, while solving erosion problems locally, have exacerbated coastal erosion at other locations or generated other environmental problems. That study also highlights the concept of coastal squeeze which occurs in low-lying and inter-tidal areas that would otherwise naturally adjust to change in sea levels, storms and tides but cannot do so due to the construction of sea walls and other inflexible coastal barriers. The outcome can often be a gradual loss of amenity beach and habitat. Because interventions within a coastal area may cause problems further along the coast, any proposed intervention measures are best developed in conjunction with a formal coastal erosion study which carefully investigates the problem and explores the full range of management options. The OPW is prepared to fund such studies where warranted in advance of any proposed erosion schemes we will put in place. In the particular case of Strandhill, the OPW has already provided significant funding to Sligo County Council for coastal works and a study under the coastal protection scheme. In 2010, €423,000 was provided for protection works, including a rock revetment. In 2011, a further €47,700 was approved for works to the main access to the dunes and southern beach, and €11,500 was approved for a coastal study. In times of severe economic constraint that is a significant amount of funding which I am pleased to say our Department has provided. Regarding the study being carried out at Strandhill, it is expected that the final report will be completed by the consultants by the end of February or early March of this year. The report will also take account of the damage caused as a result of recent storms in the area. It will then be open to Sligo County Council, on foot of it receiving the report we funded, to submit a further application to the OPW for further funding under the scheme. Any application received will be assessed in accordance with the relevant criteria and having regard to the overall avail- ability of finance. The minor works scheme is very effective because local authorities can apply for funds from our Department 24 hours a day, seven days a week. In other words, when an application comes in, we test it against criteria and consider the cost-benefit analysis to see if the funding proposal by the local authority will make a difference with regard to flooding or erosion. We quickly produce a report. When we complete this study by the end of February or early March, it is open to Sligo County Council to make an application under the minor works scheme. I give the Senator a commitment to get a result from that as soon as possible. 754 Local 18 January 2012. Government Reform

I assure the Senator that I am fully aware of the coastal erosion issues in Strandhill, County Sligo, but reiterate that it is a natural and ongoing process. In general, there is only a problem when this might threaten infrastructure or properties. It is advisable for local authorities to take into consideration the potential hazards and risk associated with coastal erosion when approving planning applications for new developments in areas vulnerable to erosion. Inter- vention to manage coastal erosion is costly, both in terms of initial capital and ongoing maintenance costs by the Office of Public Works, which must be borne in mind. I know the site in Sligo well and when the report comes out, I will have no difficulty in examining what progress, if any, can be made with an application that may come from Sligo County Council.

Senator Marc MacSharry: I thank the Minister of State for his response and I look forward to hearing the result of that report. In anticipation of early application from Sligo County Council for emergency funding, I am glad to hear the Minister of State’s Department is flush to the tune of €250 million——

Deputy Brian Hayes: Over four years.

Senator Marc MacSharry: ——for expenditure of this nature under the works scheme. I hope that in the time between now and the publication of the report, which is a matter of weeks, an early decision can be taken on an application for funding so we can get on with putting in place the important protection for what effectively is part of our national tourism infrastructure. The golf club is affected, as is part of a tourist walkway which has already been washed away. I thank the Minister of State and look forward to returning in a few weeks and getting a funding result.

Local Government Reform Acting Chairman (Senator Michael Mullins): I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O’Sullivan, to the Chamber and congratulate her on her recent elevation. I understand she started her career in the Seanad and I wish her well.

Senator Paul Bradford: I wish to share time with Senator Cáit Keane, who along with myself and the Minister served at local authority level.

Acting Chairman (Senator Michael Mullins): Is that agreed? Agreed.

Senator Paul Bradford: We are all keenly aware of the profound importance of the positive impact arising from local government in our society. It is interesting to speak about local government as in Ireland it stretches back further than the State. The Irish Free State inherited a system of local government, and that system and structure have not changed dramatically over the past number of decades. As a result of the constitutional provision regarding local government elections, the next set will be in 2014. All currently elected councillors and people who wish to involve themselves in the next set of elections are already beginning to ask what is the future of local government and the structures that will exist. I do not want to be particularly prescriptive in my comments but reform is necessary and can be helpful. Local government plays an important role not only on the political side of the nation’s affairs but in economic generation and development at local level. We must ask what types of structure are best suited to the Ireland of the new millennium. In the Oireachtas Library there is a very interesting report going back to the 1990s which was commissioned by the then Minister responsible for the environment, former Deputy Bobby Molloy. He suggested 755 Local 18 January 2012. Government Reform

[Senator Paul Bradford.] a concept of district councils and if my recollection is correct, there was broad acceptance of that type of proposal, but like many ideas in Irish politics, the report was published and debated before being put into the Oireachtas Library, where it has remained. Perhaps the Minister of State will advise if the concept is still on the agenda. Are there proposals to change any of the local authority systems? What is the current departmental thinking, particularly relating to town councils? Is consideration being given to the district council idea? To be fair to those who currently serve in local government and who wish to serve there, we should try to make these decisions quickly in order to facilitate a long and constructive lead-in to the 2014 local elections.

Senator Cáit Keane: I welcome the Minister of State and congratulate her again. With only two minutes I cannot say all I would like to about local government. Having spent 20 years working at local government level, I feel an onus on myself and on behalf of the people who elected me to argue that local government should be used for devolution of function. Essen- tially, we give power to the people at local level. If we get it right at the grassroots, what comes to the top will have a better chance of working. Senator Bradford referred to the Barrington report and he asked a valid question regarding district councils. None of us want a significant body of administration in every little town in Ireland but we must not throw out the baby with the bath water. We should consider what exists in Germany and France, which have smaller district councils. The area committees currently operating in councils could be redefined, with more power given to them. New area committees within the structure of the county or city. I look forward to the report being drawn up by the Minister for the Environment, Com- munity and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan, but when will it be published? Every local council is gearing up for the 2014 elections so it is important we do not leave the issue hanging over their head too long.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Jan O’Sullivan): I thank Senators Bradford and Keane for raising this issue, as we all have a very strong interest in the reform of local government. I know the Minister is consulting on the matter and is interested in hearing views. He is actively considering the issue. The programme for Government mentions “a fundamental reorganisation of local governance structures to allow for devolution of much greater decision making to local people.” That statement alone provides the basis for a substantial programme for reform and strengthening of local government structures and functions and, since taking office, my colleague, the Mini- ster, has engaged in extensive review and consultation on local government matters. A progressive approach to reform is being adopted, taking early decisions, where possible, and seeking to build cumulatively towards an overall programme of restructuring and development. In June and July of last year, the Government approved proposals to merge the Limerick and Tipperary authorities and the restructuring process, on foot of those decisions, is moving ahead. I have direct experience of the Limerick process. The Tipperary reorganisation implementation group submitted a progress report last November which indicated that good progress is being made in that county and the group is on schedule to meet its target of producing an implementation plan by May of this year. I understand that a progress report from the Limerick group will be submitted very shortly, which is also dealing with the integration of the Limerick regeneration agencies in the local government system, as well as merger of the city and county Councils. The group is due to finalise its implementation plan by the end of March. Meanwhile, 756 Local 18 January 2012. Government Reform a local government committee is considering whether Waterford city and county councils should be unified and is due to complete a report on this question by the end of February. Building on these early developments, the Minister will also bring proposals to Government shortly on structures generally at each level of the local government system — regional, county and sub-county, in which the Senators have a particular interest. Although time does not permit more detailed reference to these components, I will comment briefly on the sub-county dimen- sion referred to by both Senators and make specific reference to town councils. There are three broad options on governance arrangements within counties. One hypotheti- cal option might be to adhere to the current 19th century model of town authorities which during the years has become isolated, ineffective and out of touch with modern realities. The submission made to the Department some months ago by the AMAI seemed to acknowledge that this was not a desirable option. At the other extreme, the McCarthy report in 2009 recommended that all town authorities be abolished and, in turn, the report of the local government efficiency review group recommended that the rating, housing, planning and roads functions of town authorities be transferred to county councils. These proposals have not met with a favourable response from most town council representatives. This suggests the need to seek another approach that will acknowledge the strengths and benefits of municipal governance and local democratic representation, while promoting operational efficiency and administrative coherence of the county. The Department is close to completing a model of municipal governance that will achieve these objectives and, in particular, give a strong decision-making role in a meaningful range of functions to elected members at a comprehensive sub-county tier. This will mean moving beyond the town hall mentality behind which some have sheltered. There is an increasing appetite for this challenge. The second main theme of the proposals to go before the Government, in addition to structural reform, will be expansion of the role of local government. In the short to medium term there is scope for strengthening and broadening this role in three areas, in particular; first, clarifying and enhancing the role of local government in economic development and enterprise support, building on and extending current best practice; second, local authority involvement in community and local development, which will be the subject of a forthcoming report by a steering group on the alignment of local development and local government; third, devolution of specific functions from central level to local government for which the Minister has asked each of his Cabinet colleagues to identify proposals. I am conscious that I have only touched on two aspects of local government reform, namely, structures and functions, and even then in a cursory manner. Nonetheless, I hope my contribution has clarified some of the issues raised by the Senators. Local government, of course, is only one part of a broader picture. The fundamental challenge for us all is to rebuild the economy and promote a fair and cohesive society. The vision of the Government for local government is of a system with a wider range of functions to deliver improved services to citizens in a cost effective way and have a more meaningful impact on the issues that matter to local communities and, ultimately, the lives of individuals. The Minister has consulted and intends to bring proposals to the Government shortly. He is very conscious of the value of decision-making at sub-county level.

Senator Paul Bradford: I thank the Minister of State for her comprehensive response and I am pleased to note that action is being contemplated. I ask the Minister of State to endeavour to ensure, where possible, that decisions will be taken and that elected public representatives will know, no later than the summer or early autumn, the ground rules, the boundaries and the 757 The 18 January 2012. Adjournment

[Senator Paul Bradford.] systems which will be in place for the local elections to be held in 2014. This may present a challenge, but the debate about local government reform has been ongoing for far too long and it may be better to set clear targets and decide that decisions will be made, acted upon and implemented in the coming year. I ask the Minister of State to impress on the Minister the need to move from debate to making decisions and implementation in this calendar year. I again thank her for her comprehensive and engaging reply.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan: The Senator may already have had an opportunity to speak to him, but I will certainly, officially and formally, convey the points made to the Minister who is very conscious of the need for a degree of certainty as early as possible.

The Seanad adjourned at 8.25 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 19 January 2012.

758