[Friday, 22 November 19851497 4947

At the request of the Minister for Planning, the MRPA became involved with the City of 1985 Stirling in seeking ways to bring it to heel. Re- Friday, 22 November cently an order in letter form was issued claiming to withdraw the city's rights in con- THE PRESIDENT (Hon. Clive Griffiths) nection with certain planning matters. Whether took the Chair at 11.00 a.m., and read prayers. or not the MRPA legally has the power to with- draw those rights is questionable, because a PLANNING: HIGH-RISE DEVELOPMENT legal opinion given to the City of Stirling yes- terday indicated that the MRPA did not have Scarborough Motion that power and the rights came to the City of HON. P. HI. WELLS (North Metropolitan) Stiiding through a recently accepted town plan- t11.03 a.m.]: I move- ning scheme. That this House- I am not questioning whether the legal power I . Strongly condemns the Government or the intention of the action which was orig- for its irrational approach to resolving inally commenced by the Minister for Planning the high-rise development problem at in asking the MRPA to become involved was Scarborough and other planning aimed at stripping the City of Stirling of its issues, particularly the improper and right to make certain decisions and inappropriate criticism of the City of recommendations relating to planning within Stirling. the City of Stirling. What concerns me in this issue is the likely effect this action will have on 2. Calls on the Government, in the the ratepayers, the residents, the property interests Of Stirling ratepayers and the holders or owners within the City of Stirling people of Western Australia, to refrain whom this decision will affect, and the ramifi- from its confrontationist policy with cations it will have on employment, develop- the City of Stirling. ment, and investment in other local govern- 3. Requests the Government to restore ment areas throughout this State. to the City of Stirling, Town Planning I am told by the architects who have rung me delegation-of-powers authority, so that the effect is likely to be that it will cut off a that planning decisions can continue degree of prime investment and will affect indi- to be made by the City's professional vidual home owners who may consider planners, as has been the case since upgrading their homes in preparation for the 1963 and is the cast for local govern- America's Cup, and providing the much- ment authorities, under the Metro- needed accommodation which the Govern- politan Scheme. ment has been talking about. In fact, I am as- 4. Seeks an assurance from the Govern- sured that the majority of the planning requests ment that it will not interfere with the coming forward are not those of the large traditional role, responsibility and developers who are involved in (his area that autonomy of local government the Government appears to be attacking, but throughout Western Australia. the individual, small property owners; for in- stance, perhaps a retired person in North Beach 5. Calls on the Government to abandon or Scarborough has received some measures to retrospectively act against superannuation funds and discovers that he is developers who have already been entitled to build a triplex on his block. He given approval under existing plan- approaches an architect who states that it ning conditions and in many cases would be a good investment and he would be have made a substantial financial in- able to rent two of the units during the vestment. America's Cup for a reasonable return. Prior to This motion is related to the Government's ac- the Government's action, the architect would tion and intervention in connection with plan- have contacted the City of Stirling town plan- ning applications by the City of Stirling. It is a ning section. The City of Stirling employs the very blabk day for local government in terms of largest number of professional planners in the the action it appears the Government is trying metropolitan area. They would meet on site to take because subsequent legal opinions ques- and would discuss the problems of traffic, tion whether the achievement of the Govern- parking and the like; and, in a one-for-one re- ment's goals could be legally achieved. lationship, a professional person could make a 4948 4948COUNCIL] decision, the architect could get in touch with It could be claimed that the Government's his client and, while the client was still con- action is attacking high-rise development, but sidering the investment, the City of Stirling it is purely a cover-up for the Government's could decide whether to grant approval. earlier support of this project. The original Proposition for a high-rise development went The alternative under the new arrangement to the City of Stirling when the council was is that the Town Planning Department and the controlled by members who supported this MRPA will have to employ a number of Government. If one cheeks the records of the people. According to the answers I have been City of Stirling one sees that the Scarborough given in this House, I am sure the work could high-rise development started when that was be handled by the existing employees. The the situation on the council, and the Govern- person who will now be employed, as is the ment is now trying to hide its involvement. case with most Government departments, will not make the decision. Therefore, there will be Hon. Graham Edwards: The ALP did not no meetings on site and no contact with the have the numbers in that decision. person whose job is involved with the local area and who has a local feeling for the prob- Hon. P. H. WELLS: All right. If the suppont lems associated with that area. The architect for the project on that occasion is questioned, I firstly will have to wait for the application to go suggest members read The West Australian of through the planning process and there will be May this year on the occasion of the casino consequent delays. being introduced in this State. The Premier said-and I accept that he speaks for the Labor There has been great talk about the need for Party-that the casino and the Austmark de- speeding up the planning process in these mat- velopment at Scarborough were the type of job ters. With this type of delay, instead of getting creation programmes this Government back to the client on the same day or a couple supported. How do members opposite rec- of days later after discussing the problems on oncile that with the statement of one of the site, they may now get back to the client in two Government's senior Ministers who has sought or three months' Itime. on every occasion to attack the City of Stirling After getting planning approval there will be and reverse the development? Surely the de- delays in getting building permits and in cision of whether it is right or wrong must rest carrying out advenising requirements, so a in the first place on questions of town planning building may take eight or nine months to get and protect ion for the people of the area. Those approval and it will no longer be a viable safeguards are designed by the parliamentary proposition in terms of the time frame for system. Surely in the systems we devise and the taking advantage of the investment. In any laws we pass we have a mechanism which en- case, the person making the decision has a sures that if any change is to occur in an area number of other competing options. Therefore the people must have an input. The local there is a Strong possibility of cutting off a lot government authority involved-in this case of small development which will affect individ- the City of Stirling-has not been charged with uals in the City of Stirling. This is at a time failing to carry out the requirements of the Act when the Government recognises there will be to ensure there is a total input from the people a great need for extra accommodation in an of the area. area close to the America's CUP Course and will draw a number of people. It is attractive in The council has not only carried out all its terms of providing accommodation for the responsibilities so that there is no area of legal Cup. challenge, but since the project was approved there have been council elections and the coun- One likely effect of the decision is that that cillors for those wards have been returned. The accommodation will not be provided because Government continually says, "Let the voters the small investor now has to go through a decide." If the voters for that area exercised bureaucratic arrangement. it is not as though their right and decided to return the councillors there is no experience in these matters. Archi- who passed the projects after due consideration tects have dealt with the same department and and publication of the necessary details as they know the time frame they have to work in required by this Parliament, surely it can be and the type of problems they face in getting a said the council is carrying out the wishes of one-to-one relationship with the Person who the people in that area, It would appear the makes decisions. They know the types of delays Minister for Planning is carrying on a vendetta involved. and is attacking the council. tFriday, 22 November 1985) 444949

Let us consider some of the insinuations he next point: This Government and its members has made, along with a number of Ministers. are attacking the council because they believe it The first is the accusation that the council is has a number of members who support the Lib- political. eral Party in some way. As a result we consist- Hon. Fred McKenzie: Of course it is! It is ently find the decisions that Ministers are mak- dominated by the Liberal Party, and you know ing and their attacks on councillors are based it. on politics rather than issues and take no ac- count of professionalism in the area of town Hon. P. H. WELLS: I could not deny that planning. there are members on the council who have expressed views in support of the Liberal Party. The sad situation is that a developer seeking By the same token, can Hon. Fred McKenzie planning approval under this Government deny there are not members on the same coun- under the new town planning arrangements for cil who espouse the policies of the ALP? the City of Stirling will have to take a variable Hon. Graham Edwards: We have always ad- into account because now when an application mitted it; your people have never had the cour- is rejected a developer cannot be certain that age to do so. that rejection was based on a town planning principle. lHe will have to take a variable into Hon. P. H. WELLS: On that council I hap- consideration which he cannot calculate- pen to know people who espouse and follow there may have been a political decision, and if religiously the views of one of the religious there are a few votes in a development the groups, whether Catholic, Anglican, or a num- Minister may override it, and so the planning ber of others; but I have not heard any accu- decision is based more on political than plan- sations about their being members of a re- ning considerations. ligious group. I have never had any councillor of the City of Stirling phone me over a matter That is very clear in a number of ways. going before the council and ask for my Firstly, the Minister for Planning said that he opinion or for an input about the council's de- would be the single influence on the new plan- cisi on. ning authority, and he would give directions. I wonder what sort of directions he will give in Hon. Peter Dowding: Cash provides it di- connection with the City of Stirling, and how rectly. many of those decisions will be based on town Hon. P. H. WELLS: If the Minister is saying planning principles or his political principles. that it happens because Mr Cash is a councillor Hon. A. A. Lewis: What does that do to the and also a member of Parliament, I remind appeal to the Minister provisions? him that Hon. Graham Edwards was in the same situation. Hon. P. H. WELLS: If the Minister decides to influence decisions, 1, too, wonder what sort Hon. Peter Dowding: For how long? of appeal provisions will be left. Perhaps it will Hon. P. H. WELLS: If members look at the be easier for the Minister to make decisions, history of the council they will see that a large but once again the system which was devised number of members of Parliament have carried over many years by this Parliament in order to on making a contribution to the local area ensure that fair planning decisions were made while still being a member of this Parliament is being undermined by this Government and whether of the Liberal Party or the Labor this Minister. Party. The demonstrations of members on the Hon. Graham Edwards: Check my record Government side of this Chamber indicate and you will see I voted on issues, not en masse their feelings on this issue, and the fact that and en bloc as members opposite do in this these feelings are purely political. House. You have never had the courage to Secondly, the Minister is recorded in the cross the floor. Press as saying, "Now that's one all", when the Several members interjected. decision on the Spindrifter project was made. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Hon. D. J. Anyone who knows anything about the matter Wordsworth): Order! Hon. A. A. Lewis will will know very quickly what the Minister was come to order and will not start debating across referring to. the floor. Another issue in which the Government has Hon. P. H. WELLS: The remarks coming taken on the City of Stirling was that which from the Minister for Planning, Hon. Graham occurred in the confrontation over the Chinese Edwards, and Hon. Fred McKenzie prove my restaurant- 4950 4950(COUNCIL]

Hon. Fred McKenzie: There you go again- Hon. Graham Edwards:-Because the Lib- being party political. eral Party lost the last election. Hon. P. H, WELLS: I will just read this Hon. P. H. WELLS: Firstly in respect of the article if!I may- Chinese restaurant, the City of Stirling upheld Hon. Tom Stephens; I wish you wouldn't. the original town planning application that was made by the Premier of this State, in his ca- Hon. P. H. WELLS: Mr Stephens does not pacity as a member of the ALP. The council want me to read this, so I will summarise it. On maintained the same planning scheme which that particular occasion, the Premier, being the had originally been applied for. It was not im- patron of the Chinese restaurant owner, and posing any conditions that did not exist within Mr Burkett, a former Councillor and Mayor of the application that had been made. In other the City of Stirling, sent a letter to investors words, the council said to the ALP, "You may who know that the ALP could not afford a use the restaurant for what you applied, for commercial lot. While Mr Burkett was the what was advertised, and for what was ap- Mayor of the City of Stirling, he was hoping to proved." Thus the council did not impose any change that area's designation from "residential" into a non-conforming conditions that had not already been asked for. and then However, after that approval was given, the *'commercial" use so that a Chinese restaurant ALP sought to vary its application and sought could be built. However, the Australian Labor to change it. Consequently, rather than merely Party wanted to build a public Chinese res- seeking an application for a club restaurant, the taurant and the only reason that did not ALP was attempting to secure a restaurant that succeed was that the town planning challenge was available to the general public. was upheld. The ALP, when it had done its surveys, discovered that the actions of the Hon. Peter Dowding: Your Liberal Party col- Government were seen by the public as threat- leagues in the City of Stirling took a political ening the council and taking away its rights. It decision about what was essentially a planning was perceived as the big hand coming down, matter. That is the real gravamen of the of- and the Government had to back off. Since that fence. occasion, the Government has sought to find Hon. A. A. Lewis: You just wanted to alter ways in which to get at the City of Stirling. the original decision. Hon. Peter Dowding: That is not true. There The PRESIDENT: The Minister will not in- is not a skerrick of evidence. That is a silly terject, nor will Hon. A. A. Lewis respond. argument, just as silly as when the CEP thought they were being discriminated against. Hon. P. H-. WELLS: This matter is well-documented, and it is obvious that the Hon. P. H. WELLS: I wonder whether the ALP made a political decision in stepping back Minister remembers the Minister for Town from the Chinese restaurant because it Planning saying that the situation was now one discovered that the people of this State would all. not stand for a Government which was attack- Hon. Peter Dowding: The incompetence of ing the City of Stirling in such a way in respect the council cannot be hidden by those sorts of of this decision. The survey available to the assertions. ALP was information available to other people Hon. P. H-. WELLS: I suggest the Minister as well. That survey indicated to ALP members should talk to journalists of The Western Mail that on this particular issue they were wrong because I assure him they could give him chap- and the people were not with them, so the party ter and verse of the whole situation. decided to leave the matter alone. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that The matter is documented and it is obvious the Government is continually attacking the that the Government since that time has con- City of Stirling. It is seeking to pay back that tinually sought to get at the City of Stirling, to council. It does not own- the detriment not only of that local authority but also of the individual investors, particu- Hon. Graham Edwards: You are admitting larly through this latest decision. I wonder how that they are trying to get a pay-back situation this will affect the average person who lives on the Government. Hansard has a report of within the City of Stirling and who wants, for the whole situation. example, to build a duplex or triplex which is Hon. P. H. WELLS: The Government is try- architect-designed. I wonder how this will af- ing to get a pay-back on the council because it fect his planning ability and whether he will be lost- able to get a quick decision in terms of plan- [Friday, 22 November 1985] 495195 fling matters, when the local planner is a pro- people understand that the Government is get- fessional person. I doubt whether even I-on. ting back at the City of Stirling for the decision Graham Edwards would say of the planners of it took on the Chinese restaurant. I suggest that the City of Stirling that they are anything but the Minister was acting politically in making professional. Such people give advice in re- that decision and that his decision favoured the lation to the job they are employed to do, and ALP. He is seeking to impose upon the City of they are being passed by this Government- Stirling some redress because it would not com- Hon. Graham Edwards: They are being ply with the requests made by the ALP. directed by political people with no experience Hon. P. G. Pendal: Retribution. in planning. That is the trouble with the City of Hon. P. H. WELLS: Yes. I understand that Stirling. the Minister has broken his oath of office. Hon. A. A. Lewis: Directed by the MRPA, Hon. Fred McKenzie: I seem to recall public which is directed by the Minister. opposition to the Spindrifter development. Hon. Graham Edwards: No. Hon. P. H. WELLS: I will take that issue up Hon. P. H. WELLS: Hon. Graham Edwards in a moment. At the moment I am interested in made an interesting point when he said that the finding out how the Minister could break his MRPA is not directed by the Minister. If he oath of office without any action being taken were to say that the MRPA does not have the against him. If we brought to the Attorney Gen- Minister sitting in its offices every day, he eral's attention an accusation that had been would he correct. However, if Hon. Graham printed in one of the State's newspapers and an Edwards wanted to read what is provided inquiry was held to ascertain whether the Min- under the MRPA Act, he would discover that it ister had made that accusation and it was can do several things provided the Minister proved, surely the Minister would have broken allows it to do so, and in consultation with the his oath. Surely the Minister, in taking the Minister. The MRPA certainly is allowed oath, gives that oath some meaning. Surely under that Act to do as it wishes, but it would Ministers take the oath to protect the people of certainly be influenced by the Minister in terms the State. of directions. Hon. P. 0. Pendal: Otherwise we would have Hon. Graham Edwards: Are you saying that corruption. the latest decision was a decision of the Minis- Hon. Peter Dowding: That is a feeble sugges- ter for Planning? tion. Hon. P. H. WELLS: The Minister raised this Hon. P. H. WELLS: Surely if the Minister is issue and asked the MRPA to act. The end allowed to break his oath this time, it creates a result is this action of the MRPA which has dangerous precedent. removed, or claimed to remove-and there is Hon. Garry Kelly: That is your opinion. some question of whether it has any legal auth- ority to do so-the City of Stirling's legal auth- Hon. P. H. WELLS: I am happy for the At- ority relating to planning, particularly in re- torney General to set up an inquiry to find the spect of the Spindrifter scheme which had truth about this matter. The breaking of an already been approved. I am saying that the oath is a very serious matter. if the Minister is objection was raised initially because the Min- allowed to get away with it, the oath will have ister was trying to find some way to get back at no meaning and there will be no protection for the City of Stirling and had directed the MRPA the people of this State. to take the action it took. Hon. Peter Dowding: Oh, come on! Hon. Graham Edwards interjected. Hon. P. H. WELLS: It is interesting that the Minister for Industrial Relations is making Hon. P. G. Pendal: It should be one all. What these interjections because he also makes de- a scandalous thing to happen. cisions for his mates. Hon. P. H. WELLS: My statements will bear Hon. Peter Dowding: You know that is not out that the Government was attempting to get true. back at the City of Stirling. The Minister re- ferred to the action taken as being one all. I lion. P. H. WELLS: The Ministers are all would be interested to know what the Minister lining up to support the Minister for Planning meant. I know that when he is challenged he because that is this Government's practice. will find some fictitious matter to which he They are looking after their own. referred as being one all. I suggest that most Hon. Peter Dowding: What nonsense. 49S2 4952COUNCIEL]

Hon. P. H. WELLS: They have learned that indicate what the irregularities were. I have tactic from the industrial relations area. A spoken to people involved in this area and it number of builders have phoned me and said appears that some paper work was not that they have received phone calls suggesting completed in connection with the amalga- that, if they do not put ads in the right news- mation of the blocks in that area. It may be that papers, they will begin experiencing industrial there have been slight irregularities but there problems. has been no suggestion that those irregularities have affected the development of the project. Point of Order Hon. CARRY KELLY: Mr Deputy Presi- If we are going to talk about irregularities, let dent, I wonder whether you could ask Hon. us talk about the irregularities of the MRPA Peter Wells to lower his voice a bit. and its decisions relating to the Secret Harbour Unfortunately, I am sitting here underneath project. The decision on that project took him and it is almost unbearable. something like three or four years. We should compare it with the Mindarie Keys project The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Hon. D. J. which took only three or four months. If one Wordsworth): I understand that but, wants to dig deeply enough one could find all unfortunately, our Standing Orders have no sorts of irregularities in all projects. However, authority over sound. If the member wishes to one should consider whether those speak to the gallery there is nothing I can do. I irregularities are serious enough to affect the will allow Hon. Garry Kelly to come and sit at commencement or development of a project. the front. Certainly this project has been going on for years. Debate (on motion) Resumed Hon. P. H. WELLS: Some people have to We can be certain that the lawyers employed speak loudly to get through to numbed minds. by the developers have checked every facet of Hon. Garry Kelly: It hurts the ears. the law relating to this investment by the developers. I understand that the Minister took Hon. P. H. WELLS: I have to talk loudly to steps to interfere with the financing. of the proj- get over the interjections from Hon. Garry ect. Whether the project is right or wrong, that Kelly. is not a decision for the Minister to take. If a I believe the reason the Attorney General is developer fulfils all the requirements laid down not willing to set up an inquiry into this matter by the Parliament and then begins making in- is because he is fearful of the result of that vestments, surely the Minister has no right to inquiry. Once this matter is brought into the interfere in his obtaining the finance to proceed open it is likely to reveal that a, number of with that development. That could have Ministers are making decisions with no regard far-flung repercussions in terms of all develop- for their oath of office. ments in this State. Hon. Peter Dowding: What an outrageous statement to make. An interesting situation has developed be- tween the developers, the investors, and the Hon. P. H. WELLS: That oath requires the people who advise them because of the political Minister to make responsible decisions and not variable they will not be able to take into ac- to look after his friends. He should, in dealing count when making development decisions. with town planning matters, make fair de- cisions with the interests of the State at heart. Hon. Garry Kelly: What about the Hon. Graham Edwards: Are you suggesting Scarborough ratepayers? that the decision was not in accordance with planning procedures? Hon. P. H. WELLS: Hon. Garry Kelly does Hon. P. H. WELLS: There is no evidence- not listen to me properly despite the fact that he has told me I speak too loudly. He did not Hon. Graham Edwards: I will give you the listen to my statement in regard to the require- evidence as soon as you sit down. ments of the Town Planning Act that allow Hon. P. H. WELLS: It is interesting, Mr ratepayers to have an input into the activities Deputy President. I have heard accusations of their local authority. The ratepayers have the made about irregularities. None of those opportunity at a council election to vote for the irregularities has been made known to any of councillors of their choice. In the case of the us. The letter which was sent to the City of City of Stirling, the sitting councillors in the Stirling stopping work on the project did not wards to which I have referred were returned (Friday, 22 November 19851 454953 by the ratepayers at the last election. Therefore, partment's decisions willy-nilly if it is likely to the ratepayers have had, on two occasions, the attract votes. That is not a fair basis on which opportunity to make decisions. to build this State. The Government's actions Hon. Graham Edwards: Obviously you do are certainly not in the interests of this State, not know much about the people in the ratepayers of Scarborough, or the City of Scarborough and their feeling towards high-rise Stirling. It needs to be condemned for what it buildings. The construction of this building has done. It appears it is continuing its political commenced after the last election. vendetta. H-on. A. A. Lewis: This Government was in Hon. Fred McKenzie made a comment power. about councils being politically orientated. Let us take, for example, the appointment by this Hon. Graham Edwards: Can you tell me that Government of the Chairman of the Metropoli- the Government will stop the development? tan Region Planning Authority. It is not a hid- Hon. A. A. Lewis: It has stopped this one. den fact that the Chairman of the MRPA, the Hon. P. H. WELLS: Hon. Graham Edwards ex-Mayor of Fremantle, made it known that he tells me that he listens to me, but he obviously was a Labor mayor. does not understand what I am saying. He is Hon. Graham Edwards: He did not hide it. unable to grasp it. Hon. P. H. WELLS: Members who have read Hon. Graham Edwards: I can grasp it. this morning's paper would know that one Hon. P. H. WELLS: As a legislator, Hon. Labor supporter is riled by the decision made Graham Edwards has had the opportunity over by the Town Planning Board. the last three years to amend the Act if he has a Hon. Graham Edwards: Who are you talking suggestion about providing proper appeal about? mechanisms regarding Town Planning Board Hon. P. H. WELLS: I am talking about the decisions. To date, he has not brought forward Mayor of Cockburn. legislation to amend the Act. Hon. Graham Edwards: Does he support the I am not suggesting that the law should be Labor Party? changed in regard to appeal mechanisms. The proper mechanism has been used by the City of Hon. P. H. WELLS: He has indicated to me Stirling. On more than one occasion it has held that for many years he has been a sympathiser meetings and has considered written sub- of the Labor Party. missions from residents about the proposal. In this instance, the Mayor of Cockburn has During the period of the high-rise issue the said that the decision made by the board is the sitting councillors for the wards concerned worst decision that has ever been made and were returned to office. that it is a black day for local government. It is not a question of whether the project Hon. Fred McKenzie: What do the other 12 should or should not go ahead. That decision people on the board say? must be made by the people who reside in the Hon.' P.' H. WELLS: The other people said area because they will be the ones who will be that the work order on the Spindrifter develop- affected. I have no argument about the rate- ment should not be issued. However, despite payers in Scarborough having their say. what they said they went ahead and made the Hon. Graham Edwards: You will not support decision. them. Hon. Graham Edwards: There are two separ- Hon. P. H. WELLS: However, I do have an ate decisions. argument in that having set down the Hon. P. H. WELLS: One decision concerned mechanisms to allow people to express their the work order which it was claimed was put on views about the development and allowing the that project. developer to go ahead with the project, this Government proposes to take retrospective ac- I suggest to members of the Government that tion. What sort of confidence can a developer after this House has risen they spend some time have if the Government believes in retrospec- electioneering in the Cockburn electorate be- tive action? It does not matter how much the cause it has been indicated to me that that seat developers spend, how many 'jobs are lost, how is not as safe as the ALP believes it is. many developers go broke and lose their The Mayor of Cockburn disagrees with the homes; this Government reserves the right to project, but he is most upset about the way in retrospectively reverse the Town Planning De- which the Government has ridden roughshod 4954 4954[COUNCIL] over the developers. As a result, he has offered Hon. P. H. WELLS: I am just giving an illus- his services to Austmark as a witness if it in- tration of the types of decisions made by this tends to take funther action against the Govern- Government with respect to local authorities. ment. He is incensed by the Government's ac- If H-on. Graham Edwards would listen, he tion and he believes it stands condemned and might take it in. that the MRPA is not acting in the, best interests of the State. The Minister on another occasion was Mr Hodge. The Government lost out on the issue. Provision is made in the Local Government Because the Government lost out, it retaliated Act for compulsory conferences to be held in by removing Mr Don McGill from the Air Pol- matters of this kind and the Minister acts as the lution Council. The Local Government Associ- mediator to get the people involved together. ation, which speaks on behalf of other local government authorities, supported him and Hon. P. G. Pendal: Did he use that pro- wanted him as its representative on that vision? council. But because Mr Hodge lost out, Mr McGill was replaced. That is another example Hon. P. H. WELLS: The Minister did not of this Government's pay-back mentality. even suggest it. Hon. P. 0. Pendal: To it, autonomy for local Hon. P. G. Pendal: That is interesting. government is dead. Hon. P. H. WELLS: I am sure that the Minis- Hon. P. H. WELLS: That is right. That is ter for Industrial Relations would have acted as why local government is very concerned about a mediator if a similar circumstance arose with the actions of this Government. The Govern- regard to an industrial dispute. However, on ment should abandon the actions it has taken this occasion we find that the Minister for in a number of areas. Planning is using a mechanism provided by this Parliament to deal with a dispute involving Firstly, the Government should cease its a local authority. confrontationist policy towards not only the City of Stirling, but also other local govern- The Government wants to trample on the ment authorities that do not knuckle down to City of Stirling and no doubt if it were able it what the Government wants them to do. would sack that council. However, it is fright- People involved in local government give up ened to take that action because of the pending their time with no recompense for the time election. Surveys have shown that the people they spend representing people at the do not support the Government's action. Be- grassroots level. It does not behove Ministers cause the Government is unable to take the like Mr Pearce to attack local government, par- action it would like to take, it has sought to ticularly in the way he has attacked the City of find a way to get back at the council. The Min- Stirling. ister's mouth condemned him when he said, "N.ow we are one-all." Local government has Secondly, the Government should abandon indicated through the media what it thinks its desire to take retrospective action against about the Government's decisions. any developer who has already had planning approval under the requirements of existing I raise this issue on behalf of other local laws and regulations and who has already made government bodies as well. We are reaching a substantial investments based on those laws new era, one in which local government can and regulations. Because of the damage to local have no confidence. Many local government government throughout the State because of representatives give a lot of time with no pay to this action, the Government at the very least work on committees in their local areas. For needs to give local government some assurance instance, the Mayor of Cockburn, to whom I that its action was wrong and that it will not referred, was involved in another of these dis- interfere with the autonomy of local govern- putes, the Farrington Road dispute. Let us look ment in Western Australia and that it will not at the Government's action with respect to the repeat these types of actions. Certainly the matter. The Government attacked the council Government should not persist in seeking ways over Famrngton Road and had to back down. to enforce the removal of the delegation of powers authority. It would appear, from legal lion. Graham Edwards: What has this to do opinion given yesterday, that the council may with the City of Stirling? not have lost that power. I gather that the [Friday, 22 November 1985] 454955

Government, probably through the Crown Law councillors of the City of Stirling, we find that Department, is now seeking ways to get around many are Liberal Party supporters. Crs that decision. Anderson and Spagnolo, both representing one The Government should inquire into the ward, are members of the Liberal Party. Crs breaking of the oath, as shown in the Hancock and Strickland can likewise be so statement by the Minister that the City of identified. Cr Hancock was a former candidate Stirling and the Government were now one-all. for the Liberal Party for the Federal scat of Stirling. Cr Strickland, we have been advised, Most importantly, the Government should is running the State campaign for Cr Grierson, restore people's confidence in the City of who is a councillor for Scarborough and just Stirling. Small home developers who may have happens to be the Liberal endorsed candidate wanted to develop now have to overcome the for Scarborough. Cr Camillieri, a former hurdles of meeting certain planning require- mayor, is also a member of the Liberal Party. ments and delays. This Government stands Those are just a handful of names; they happen condemned for its involvement in this action. also to be a handful of Liberal members. HON. GRAHAM EDWARDS (Noath Metropolitan) [11.56 a.m.]: At the outset I Mr Wells should not tell me that these people point out that Mr Wells and the City of Stirling have not sought political confrontation with consistently demonstrate that they have no this Government. They have done so quite concern for the people of Scarborough. The openly and blatantly at the direction of the Australian Labor Party has always been in Leader of the Opposition and the member for favour of the Chinese restaurant proposal; Mt Lawley, Cr Cash, who also sits on the City equally, it has always been opposed to high-rise of Stirling. development at Scarborough, There has been absolutely no change to our policy. The change [Resolved: That business be continued.] that we have seen has been at the City of Stirling. The change that came about as a result Hon. GRAHAM EDWARDS: Referring to of the change in numbers was one that went in the time when I was a councillor, when votes pursuit of political goals. Those goals have well were taken on issues the councillors worked out and truly overridden consideration for the for themselves how they wanted to respond to well-being of the residents and ratepayers of the those issues. I can think of a number of oc- City of Stirling. Some of the things that have casions on which I voted with different groups gone on there over the last couple of years have on different issues; and when the member for been quite disgusting. Scarborough, Mr Burkett, was Mayor of the Hon. P. G. Pendal: Including the Chinese City of Stirling his voting pattern was such that restaurant. nobody ever knew which way he would vote. He responded to issues in accordance with his Hon. GRAHAM EDWARDS: Mr Wells put own conscience and dealt with each matter in- forward this motion, spoke to it, and came up dividually. It is interesting to note that since he with absolutely no evidence to support what is retired as mayor, the mayors who have written in his motion. That makes me think succeeded him have voted en bloc with the rul- that once again it is a political exercise. It is the ing faction on the council of the City of use of this Chamber for politics. It is a pity that Stirling. It is the lack of leadership and courage we have had to defer discussion on that most of these mayors that obviously has led to the important Order of the flay No. l, the Adop- massive problems at the City of Stirling. tion of Children Amendment Bill. That has again been deferred because of the pursuit of The ratepayers woke up to the problems politics. early in the piece, and so too did the staff mem- It is interesting that, when members opposite bers. It has had a very bad effect on the City of talk about confrontation, they do not consider Stirling and a number of senior staff have re- the makeup of the City of Stirling. I am not signed from the local authority. Many of those aware of any confrontation that has been who resigned demonstrated a high level of skill sought by the Government. We, the local mem- and enthusiasm and adopted a professional ap- bers, have never sought anything more than to proach to their jobs. However, their enthusi- work to the best benefit of the people of the asm waned and they left because they could not City of Stirling. It is a pity that the councillors handle the political pressures being applied by have not adopted the same approach to us. many councillors who were part of the ruling When we consider the political persuasions of faction at the City of Stirling. 4956 4956[COUNCIL]

In the three years that I was a councillor I investigating the whole question of high-rise was never once involved in directing, or developments in the Scarborough locality with attempting to direct, any staff member on how some concern. he should carry out his job. A number Of pro- It is also interesting to note that the chief fessional people employed at the City of planning officer was quoted in the newspaper Stirling could not handle the changes that took as deriding the MRPA for giving consent to place after the Liberal Party gained power on previous applications for development which, that council. Those employees left the City of similarly, did not meet the conditions laid Stirling and went to work for other local down. That is a further indication that the authorities in the State. That has been a great MRPA should be concerned with regard to the loss to the council. planning approach to approvals for develop- The most recent and significant loss is that of ments in the City of Stirling. the Town Clerk, Mr Malcolm Sargant, who had Mr Wells referred to town planning del- given the City of Stirling many years of egation of powers of authority so that planning dedicated service. I believe that he was unable decisions can continue to be made by the City to continue in that position because of the of Stirling's professional planners. I would be pressures that were applied which forced him quite happy to allow those professional plan- to resign as a matter of principle. ners to go ahead and plan for the future devel- opment of the City of Stirling. However, I am Mr Wells has moved the motion in this not satisfied with the amount of political inter- House today without producing one scrap of ference with which those professional planners evidence to support it. As far as I am concerned must contend. It would be interesting to know it is a political exercise and an attempt to prop how many recommendations put forward by up the City of Stirling. It is a further attack on those professional planning officers have been the Government and the independent body of overturned when they reached the council the MRPA. We heard Mr Wells talk of one stage. If my memory serves mue correctly, those member's reaction to a decision made by the officers gave the go-ahead to the establishment MRPA but he did not dwell on the decision of the Chinese restaurant at Nollamara and made by the other 12 members of the MRPA that decision was overturned by the who supported the action. I hope that Mr Wells non-professional political councillors. will not try to tell us that the Minister politi- I do not wanit to delay the House for much cally directed those 12 members to reach that longer because I know that we wish to continue decision. If he attempted to do so, he would be with the orders of the day. I brand this motion casting aspersions on the credibility of those 12 purely as a political exercise which attempts to members and I do not think he should be al- prop up the political arm of the Liberal Party lowed to get away with those sorts of accu- in the City of Stirling. It is attempting to create sations. a situation that might help Mrs Grierson in her Referring to the Spindrifter development, bid to oust the current member for which brought this whole matter about, from Scarborough, Mr Burkett. I do not believe that the information I have been able to ascertain it will happen. I think the people of Scarborough seems that the City of Stirling has been acting will support the action taken by the MRPA on outside its established planning procedures. this most crucial issue. When that proposal was before the council I I oppose the motion and indicate my abhor- recall that nine councillors voted in favour of rence for the House being used in this way. the development and four opposed it. When Debate adjourned, on motion by Hon. Fred approval was granted, 22 conditions were McKenzie. imposed, the second of which was that the four certificates of title must be amalgamated prior EResolved:. That business be continued.J to the issue of the building licence. A further ECONOMIC STRATEGY note was included at the end of the 22 con- ditions emphasising that the amalgamation FederalGovernment: Motion must be effected prior to the issue of the build- HION. G. C. MecKINNON (South-West) ing licence. We now know that the building [12. 10 p. m.] : On beh alf of Hon. NeilI Oliver. I licence was issued before the amalgamation of move- the certificates of title. That is clear evidence That this House calls upon the Govern- that not all of the 22 conditions were complied ment to withdraw its support for the econ- with. It is no wonder that the MRPA is omic strategy of the Federal Government [Friday, 22 November 1985]195 4957

which has imposed on all Australians the cost of the prices and incomes accord has been adverse effects of a substantial devaluation brought home to the Australian community in of the dollar; a massive increase in externial a very dramatic fashion over the past week. debt; and record interest rates. The Australian dollar basket of currency now In so doing, this House calls upon the stands at 60.3c against the US dollar, the lowest Government to: on record. Australia now has the highest real interest rates for almost the last tOO years. The (i) support deregulation of the labour Australian inflation rate is almost double that market to enable the private sector to of our major trading partners, and almost improve its competitive standing; treble that of Japan, our best customer. Australia's gross overseas debt now stands at (ii) implement policies to restrict the $68.5 billion, or 33 per cent of the gross dom- abuse of union power which has led to estic product. To put it in another way, that the reputation of an unreliable and represents $4 400 for every man, woman, and costly supplier; and child in this country. (iii) to reduce the cost burden of the These disturbing economic facts are in no Government, both State and Federal, small measure due to the legacy of the prices on the population as a whole and on and incomes accord between the Hawke employers in particular, thereby re- Government and the ACTU, which, of course, versing the trend of Labor Govern. leads to that great statement of consensus ments to over-tax, over-spend and which really is, in the view of the Labor Party, over-borrow. some new arrangement where socialism goes hand in hand with free enterprise. There is no doubt that in the electorate at large the matters touched by Hon. Neil Oliver are it was interesting to hear a comment the exercising the minds of everyone. Strangely other day by Alan Jones, a leading commen- enough, the group most markedly affected are tator on 2IE in Sydney, broadcast over some the people who are expected to pay their bills in 78 network stations. He said that if Bob Hawke order to cope with the present situation; the were still the President of the ACTU', he could people who have mortgages and young children still be running Australia. to look after, and who are trying to meet all It is time this absurd myth of the accord was their commitments. We spend a lot of time debunked. It is time the real costs of this cosy worrying about the very poor, but of course the arrangement between the Government and the very poor are frequently assisted in innumer- ACTU were better understood in the com- able ways. Perhaps we should spend more time munity. That is the reason for bringing this thinking about the rich, but in this context the motion forward. rich usually manage. Despite the constant claims of the Prime The bulk of middle Australians are Ihe Minister and the Federal Treasurer that the people affected. I for one am delighted that accord has delivered a land of milk and honey, Hon. Neil Oliver has brought this motion for- the reality is that the accord has locked ward, and I hope that now he will explain it in Australia into an uncompetitive and greater detail than I am able to do at this short unproductive place in the world economy. If notice. He can enlarge on the ramifications members doubt my words, any member who faced by the general community with regard to cares can examine the relevant information. these problems. May I suggest to members that they look at Hon. Peter Dowding: Well said! what has happened to the Australian dollar in recent weeks. They should ask themselves why HON. NEIL OLIVER (West) [12.14 p.m.]: I it is that despite that big fall in the US dollar, took great interest in the opening comments of our currency has continued to slide against Hon. Graham MacKinnon. is worry and con- virtually every major currency in the world. cern are being expressed throughout our com- Against one of our major partners, the US, the munity that our present predicament is due to slide is in the vicinity of eight per cent. Against the almost listless leadership which is coming the Japanese yen it is in the vicinity of 15 per from Governments, specifically the Federal cent. It has fallen quite dramatically over the Government. There is no doubt that the high previous week. 4959 4 5g(COUNCIL]

International finance markets clearly lack This recent national wage case, which I call confidence in the medium-term future of the the accord mark It-this new agreement Australian economy. In particular, these mar- between the Government and the ACTU-was kets have given a thumbs down to the recent arrived at with no-one else being included in national wage case decision. They are totally the discussions. Of course, the two parties get unconvinced that the Federal Government has on particularly well together, with Prime Min- properly come to grips with the devaluation of ister Hawke having once been the President of the Australian dollar earlier this year. Regret- the ACTtJ and only recently being the immedi- tably their judgment is correct. ate past president. He and the new president, Mr Simon Crean, must get on very well The much lauded renegotiation of what is together; they must have some extremely called the accord mark 11 two months ago did pleasant entertainment at The Lodge at the ex- not adequately respond to the inflationary chal- pense of the Australian lenge imposed by the 20 per cent devaluation taxpayer. earlier this year. Ever since that devaluation, a This agreement undermines the authority clear and unambiguous discounting of wage and the independence of the Australian Con- rises for the declining prices effect has been ciliation and Arbitration Commission, which imperative, yet the Federal Government has the Minister for Employment and Training continued to squib the challenge. states is the place in which all these matters The deal done two months ago involving, should be discussed. The Minister in this among other things, the conceding of a pro- House, unlike Prime Minister Hawke and Mr ductivity ciaim of three per cent even before Crean, does not wish to intervene; he believes the claim had been presented to the com- these mattems should be settled in the com- mission, may have persuaded some newspaper mission. A different arrangement operates in commentators and even some businessmen in the Federal scene. Australia. However, it has clearly not convinced world financial markets. Nor indeed A deal was done outside the commission. On were those markets convinced by the Federal top of that, the deal was done without the in- Treasurer's recent trip to New York and volvement of the employers. It was to be ac- London, a subject to which I will return later. cepted by the commission, which we know is what occurred. Employers must seriously ques- On Wednesday, in addressing the Federal tion the commission's relevance. What is the Parliament, Prime Minister Hawkce stressed purpose of industrial relations legislation in that in the current economic circumstances he this counitry i f thi s is to be the way thec deal s are did not see the need to renegotiate the prices done? and incomes accord with the ACTU, although not resiling from his comment on Monday that We know already that the State Government the accord would be renegotiated if the is against any gradual deregulation, or any Government thought it necessary. That was move to some alternative, or to some exam in- only on Monday. I am now referring to his ation of alternatives to the current industrial comments made on Wednesday when Mr arbitration system. Yet in this instance a deal Hawke told the Federal Parliament that the was done between the Prime Minister of settings of the Government's policies were ap- Australia and the President of the ACTU, and propriate as they stood. That was a complete that deal excluded the arbitration commission about-face in 48 hours. and the employers. It appears that the arbi- tration commission is to be merely a rubber He put these settings as a progressively less stamp for private arrangements made between stimulatory fiscal policy, an export-orientated the Federal Government and the trade union industry policy, and a firm monetary policy, all movement. based on the accord mark 11. 1 quote him as follows- The employers put their case to the com- But it is the judgment of the Govern- mission for the national wage increase because ment that that situation is not one which they knew Australia could not afford it. Many operates at present. of the benefits arising from the devaluation of the Australian dollar will be squandered if, at Clearly Mr Hawke sees moving on the accord the very least, discounting is not applied in the as the final option if the dollar does not move future. Better still, there should be no wage and the economy appears locked into high increase at all when we come to the next round interest rates. of discussions. [Friday, 22 November 1985] 495995

As a member of Parliament, I wilt be count deficit and will head off a $100 billion watching with great interest what occurs. I will foreign debt. October's current account deficit be watching the impact of the commission's which I have just mentioned is staggering proof decision on the Australian dollar, which has that the Government's economic growth strat- already declined in value owing to the current egy has failed. Wages must be frozen and our 3.8 per cent decision. I will be watching with monetary policy aimed at recession. Federal great interest the wage increases that now will Treasurer Keating is wedded to a growth strat- fuel inflation and the further downward press- egy and has discounted expert opinion that the ure on the Australian dollar over the next few expansion cannot endure while the balance of months. payments is in collapse. What an incredible The brutal reality of a floating exchange rate situation! must ultimately force the Government to face The Federal situation is wrong. Exports have the folly of the prices and incomes accord, yet gone sour, farming and mining incomes run the Prime Minister Hawke in his statement to the jeopardy of low prices abroad, and industry Federal Parliament on Wednesday appears to faces soaring costs. I have spoken about that put that matter in his order of priorities more matter before and have mentioned how indus- as a lender of last resort. try is sandwiched between a high cost of pro- Treasurer Keating must learn that foreign duction and a low off-shore income return. exchange markets need more than hype and These sectors account, incidentally, for about cheap abuse of one's critics before they buy 80 per cent of our export income; I understand Australian dollars. Foreign exchange dealers now the mining sector accounts for in the operating in countries with inflation rates of vicinity of 43 per cent and the farming sector four per cent or less will hardly be impressed by 40 per cent, so they are certainly the greatest a Federal Treasurer who tells them that all is part of the export income. well when inflation in Australia is double their own level. Unfortunately, further falls in the Those two industries play a large pant in our Australian dollar will put more pressures on ability to service the foreign debt because they interest rates. These pressures on interest rates provide our foreign earnings. The prospects for will not go away. these industries are not good. This is causing the Government great con- Imports of goods and services are roaring cern as we face an election. Not only has the ahead as the ill-conceived economic growth Federal Government's failure to move to tackle strategy underpins the inflow. Interest on our the ACTU and the devaluation issue huge debt has already grieved us and threatens contributed to our present dilemma, but it to tip us into chaos. We now owe about $73 could also mean that the benefit of this year's billion abroad, and we will hit the $100 billion devaluation will slip through our grasp. mark soon. A stream of October-sized "shocker" increases like the last lot will have us Our balance of payments deficit problem is in the third world debt class, and I will speak continuing to get worse despite record high about that Matter in a few minutes. levels of interest rates and the largest de- pression in 30 years. The trade deficit for the Hon. Garry Kelly interjected. September quarter was 30 per cent higher than last year, and the balance of payments deficit Hon. NEIL OLIVER: I do not know what the for the September quarter was 20 per cent honourable member is saying, but he would not higher than last year. The October balance of have a clue about the internal costs in accounts totalled $1 641 million, an all-time Australia, what the interest rates are, and how record. Nothing short of a major credit squeeze they are affecting the small firms and the will plug Australia's $15 billion annual current farmers in this country. If he wants to interject account deficit and head off a $100 million on me, having listened to members here talk foreign debt. about the state of the farming industry and small business, he can get up later and say his Sitting suspendedfrom 12.30 to 1.37 p.mn. piece, okay? I am only quoting figures from the Hon. NEIL OLIVER: Before the luncheon Australian Bureau of Statistics and I am draw- suspension I was talking about the record total ing them to the attention of the House. The of October balance of accounts of $1 641 member can get up later and make his speech. million. I went on to say that this tremendous Interjections are disorderly in this House. If the record in the Australian current account will honourable member wants to make a speech, plug Australia's $15 billion annual current ac- he can do so later. 4960 4960[COUNCIL]

Hon. Garry Kelly: You just said Australian What sort of tax package is this? It is sup- prices should be frozen. How would you do posed to bring great prosperity to this country. that? Just to help family businesses, and farmers H-on. NEIL OLIVER: Australian costs are and anybody else in a company situation too high, working hours are too short, and pro- along-we are trying to get the economy going, ductivity is too low. Our entire society is beset according to Prime Minister Hawke-the Fed- with union dictated rigidities. We are trying to eral Government has decided to increase lope our way through a 36-hour week in a company tax in this package. So the company 48-hour world. tax rate is to be 49 per cent at a time when our At the moment we have a situation where the trading partners are reducing their already Builders Labourers Federation is almost hold- much lower company tax rates. It will have an ing to ransom the building sites in Western adverse effect on the balance of payments, as Australia, and in Perth particularly, for a will the proposed foreign tax credit system. The 35-hour week. In fact, if their demands are not large external account deficits this time last met they are saying that if any job is declared year were a major reason for the Australian black by them they will not go back on the job dollar depreciating by more than 20 per cent. unless it is a 35-hour week job. The market's attention was drawn to the state of the economy by matters such as the Prime An article in yesterday's The Australian is Minister's MX fiasco and the Public very Service interesting. It says that Premier Cain is strike. not taking the same attitude to the BLF as is Premier Burke, or indeed the Minister for Em- Unless there is a significant turnaround in ployment and Training. Mr President, I am the balance of payments, there will be further sorry that matter is on the Notice Paper. I was downward pressure on the dollar and another referring to what Premier Cain was saying in fall in the standard of living. It is called "going Victoria. I should not have referred to a Bill down the chute". Australia's inflation level, as that is already on the Notice Paper. measured by the CPT which the Government talks so often about, is now almost double that I will be very interested, as we are entering of our major trading partners, and increasing. the twilight of this session, to see whether that It is three times that of Japan, one of our most very important Bill slips off the Notice Paper important rrading partners. If the current and is not attended to. weakness of the dollar persists, we will be head- The Government's tax package, which we ing for an inflation rate of eight per cent in have all seen-and I know even you, MrT Presi- 1986. Estimates of the effect of the devaluation dent, have expressed your concern about this vary, but a likely figure is that the devaluation tax package- has added 1.5 percentage points to the current rate of 7.6 per cent. I do not believe all the Withdrawal of Remark effects have flowed on yet. The inflation rate The PRESIDENT: Order! That remark is ab- for the current financial year will be consider- solutely out of order. I want the honourable ably higher, and no doubt that is the reason the member to withdraw any suggestion that the Minister for Budget Management has lifted his President of this House has made any comment projections from the 6.9 per cent in the about any of these matters. Treasurer's speech to 8.9 per cent, when the Hon. NEIL OLIVER: My apologies, MrT Federal Government is suggesting a figure of President. I withdraw the remark. only 8.6 per cent. It appears the Minister for Budget Manage- Debate (on motion) Resumed ment has a lot more wisdom than Treasurer Hon. NEIL OLIVER: Concern has been Keating. At least he has an extra 0.4 per cent up expressed across the whole spectrum of the his sleeve. The only thing I do not like is his community about the Government's tax pack- patting himself on the back for doing it. age. It will also decrease our competitive disad- If these estimates are correct, and there must vantage. The jack booted crackdown on fringe have been an increase in the underlying rate of benefits will result in an increase in business inflation from five per cent in March to about costs, with quite legitimate business expenses six per cent after removing the effect of devalu- which are allowable elsewhere throughout the ation, it is not consistent with the Treasurer's world not being allowed in Australia. Fringe claim that we are experiencing a temporary in- benefits are not now tax deductible. This will crease in the inflation level due to devaluation. have an adverse effect on business profitability. What a lot of rot! This time last year the Feder- [Friday, 22 November 1985J196 4961 al Government tried to buy low interest rates With inflation expected to remain subdued in for the unnecessary Federal election which it the major world economies in 1986-87, called. We are noaw paying the price for its ir- Australia's inflation rate will put it out of line responsibility in allowing the money' supply to with all international trends. blow out. We are seeing a lower dollar, higher The accord requires that the Hawke Govern- interest rates, and an unacceptably high level of ment maintain a high interest rate strategy. Un- monetary growth. The money supply figures- less interest rates remain high and monetary and I will be watching with great interest for policies firm, additional pressures will be the latest figures which are probably due next placed on the Australian dollar. Any further week-show that the situation is getting worse, significant falls in the value of the dollar will not better. require yet another renegotiation of the accord. The most worrying aspect this year was the I have already told honourable members that continued high money growth caused by high Mr Hawke had one story last Monday and yet levels of borrowing despite record levels of another story last Wednesday, so the country is interest rates. They bode ill for interest rates in in for a very interesting time. I have already the future, and for Premier Burke who said, on quoted Prime Minister Hawke's statement and being elected to office, that he would bring I will not repeat it because it is in the Hansard interest rates down. Australia has the highest record for everyone to read. real interest rates for almost 100 years. If the Prime Minister of Australia had stayed Yesterday the Commonwealth Bank the President of the Australian Council of matched the interest rate increase set by Trade Unions, he would still be running Westpac and the ANZ on Tuesday when it Australia, but rather than take on the ACTU lifted its prime rate for triple-A borrowers to the Hawke Government has now opted to 19.25 per cent, That is the rate before one adds maintain a high interest rate policy which is on the extra charges. I have been looking at very much to the disadvantage of the current some of the Commonwealth Bank's forecasts. I Labor Government. I do not know what Mr know this bank is very dear to members op- Burke will do about it, but if he supports this posite, who believe it should not be subject to motion he will put the message across to the any form of privatisation because it has Prime Minister of how strongly he feels about performed so well. I would like to give a re- this matter. If the Government publicly sup- sume of what the Commonwealth Bank thinks ports this motion, it will be an indication from will occur. It considers that in the 1985-86 this Parliament that members here are not financial year, inflation will accelerate in the happy with the way Mr Hawke is running the first two or three quarters as the direct effects country. Unless interest rates remain firm and of the depreciation of the currency continue to monetary policy remains firm, additional work their way through to prices at the retail downward pressures will be placed on the level, It goes on to say that by early to Australian dollar again. Any significant falls in mid-1986 the bulk of the depreciation-induced the value of the dollar will require yet another boost to inflation is expected to have occurred, renegotiation. and trends in wages' growth and demand press- Mr Hawke has opted to maintain a high ures will become the primary factor in interest rate policy under the influence of the influencing inflation in 1986-87. ACTU. That is very sad for this State Govern- There will be another consensus arrange- ment, which consequently will do everything it ment. Mr Hawke will have a chat with ACTU can to play down this state of affairs. I feel that President Crean, and they will do a little separ- this State and its representatives should be ate deal which will have nothing whatsoever to making their presence felt in Canberra. As the do with the Conciliation and Arbitration Com- dollar continues to weaken, the Government mission or the employers. The Consumer Price will push interest rates higher. This press- Index forecast is that costs will rise by 8.5 per ure-cooker effect is at work out in the housing cent over the year ending 30 June 1986. This interest area, and we have seen the efforts by now appears to be a conservative forecast, and the State Government in what are called obviously the Minister for Budget Manage- ",marginal electorates" to try to cushion the ef- ment, in setting the Budget at 8.9 per cent, has fect; but it is only a one-off situation. I have done very well. However, I suggest that he asked, "When will you go again?", and I have should remove his hands from behind his back been told that the Government will examine and not applaud himself for the Budget Esti- the proposal. 1 do not know how we can come mates, because that is what the rise will be. up with another $70 million when the Parlia- (156) 4962 4962[COUNCIL] ment is in recess. I know that the Cabinet was loan and he says, "Sonry, I can give you not consulted on these matters, so I suppose $35 000 but you know we offer a range of 98 Premier Burke will do his own thing. The services." He then opens the bottom drawer of Government interest rate ceiling has adversely his desk and he pulls out some of these avail- pushed poorer high-risk borrowers into high able services and he offers the customer the interest rate borrowing. It is unfortunate that affiliated finance company's application form. the very people whom the Labor Government This example of a housing loan cocktail dem- set out to help will suffer from this very policy. onstrates that low-income earners are being In addition, the Government is helping the forced out of the home buyers' market. people who have already bought their own A person borrowing $50 000 from a bank in homes and have made commitments, while March 1985 would, over 25 years at 11.5 per making it more difficult for those who want to cent interest, be paying out $508 a month. buy their own homes. These developments oc- Today, with interest rates having risen to 13.5 curred less than 12 months after the Prime per cent, that home buyer will be paying Minister and Treasurer Keating promised that approximately $583 a month in repayments. In in 1985 interest rates would fall. We are mov- other words, he will be paying $75 a month ing towards the end of November and yet more, which is a fairly large slice from an aver- interest rates are running at a near-record age family's budget. However, someone level-a 100-year high. The Federal Minister wishing to borrow $50 000 from a savings bank for Housing and Construction, Mr West, is still might be offered only $ 35 000 at home loan promising lower interest rates, which I find in- rates, topped up with $20 000 at a trading bank credible. rate of 19.5 per cent over 10 years, which is the The average housing finance available from current rate for prime borrowers. This person institutions subject to interest rate controls- would have to pay well in excess of $704 a for example, savings banks and building month-and incidentally would be paying in socities-is drying up. It is being replaced by excess of $200 a month, or 44 per cent, more more expensive sources of finance such as than the person who took out a loan in March trading banks and other lenders. The finance 1985. The average interest rate of this cocktail houses are starting to catch up, and sub- loan would he about 17 per cent now, in view sequently there will be many increases in sec- of this new prime rate, and would be well ond mortgages. I suppose in this regard the above the 13.5 per cent ceil ing. Government will be a little happier as it will The effects of the Government's high interest have more stamp duty revenue because it will rate ceiling policy on mortgages may not yet be be stamping the first mortgages and it will be obvious to people with existing mortgages, par- stamping the second mortgages, and it will get ticularly in Western Australia, due to the com- two lots of stamp duty. paratively recent practice of financial insti- Lending by savings banks in August subject tutions of not changing repayment amounts as to Government interest rate ceilings fell by 2.4 interest rates change and varying the period of per cent compared with July. Within the the loan instead. Many people will receive a coming week figures for the last quarter will shock when they receive their mortgage possibly become available. Lending by building statement at the end of this financial year- societies subject to State Government interest that is, 30 June 1986-and learn that they owe rate ceilings overall in some States-but not in more than they did at the beginning of the year, this State, although the Government has tried despite paying thousands of dollars during the to cushion the effect-fell nationally by 15.3 year. This will occur due to recent large in- per cent in August. I will be interested to see creases in interest rates, and repayments will the October statistics from the permanent. not even cover interest on the loans, let alone building societies when they become available any capital repayments. The balance will be for Western Australia. added to the outstanding loan. This is yet The institutions subject to interest rate con- another consequence of the Hawke Govern- trols are obviously rationing their loans at con- ment's high interest policy which has been cession rates, and forcing potential borrowers made necessary by the accords-accord mark I to top-up their loans from a more expensive and accord mark 11, source. This is known as a "cocktail". It means Most of these economic problems can be that the average home loan borrower chooses traced both directly and indirectly to the well over the ceiling rate. One goes into the Australian Labor Party-ACTU accord. The bank manager's office and asks for a $50 000 national wage case decision last month is the [Friday, 22 November 1985] 496396 most recent and most obvious case. The de- wonder Australia's international credit rating cision to grant an across-the-board 3.8 per cent has slipped in the past couple of years and the increase irrespective of the capacity of individ- Federal Treasurer had to arrange, at very short ual industries and enterprises to pay underlines notice, to make a special speech in New York what is wrong with Australia's rigid centralised and London to try to talk up the dollar. While wage-fixing system. he was there it was dropping even more. How In order to appease Mr Crean, the Hawke unsuccessful that trip was is indicated by the Government supported a 3.8 per cent wage in- fall in the dollar following his visit. crease which will have to be borne by all Australian employers whatever their financial The constant assertions by the Federal status. It is not credible to maintain that all Treasurer and the Prime Minister that the Australian employers are in a position to pay a prices and incomes accord has produced boundless economic benefits for Australia were 3.8 per cent wage increase. When I was put in perspective by a recent survey in the listening to the debate about farmers the other evening, I certainly could not anticipate that prestigious International Investor magazine they would absorb that sort of increase. For which has shown that our credit rating has example, the commission has accepted the Bu- fallen significantly since the Hawke Govern- ment came to office. The survey showed that reau of Agricultural Economics estimate that Australia's credit worthiness had slipped the net value of rural production will fall by by 1.8 over 20 per cent in 1985-86. However, that has points to 82.1I points in the half year to no effect on the accord! September, the ninth largest fall of all. The credit rating has fallen by 2.1 per cent over the There is no doubt that even Mr Keating past year, and 5.6 per cent since the Hawke would agree that the effect of the devaluation Government was elected in 1983, in contrast to on the Consumer Price Index should be an increase of 0.4 per cent in the avenage rating discounted if the potential competitive benefits for all countries in the past year. from the devaluation are to be maintained. That has not happened in this decision. The Often we read in the newspapers what the Treasurer tries to rationalise his being rolled by Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Mr Crean and the ACTU by saying that the Development is saying about Australia-that ACTU will let the Government achieve a two we are on target and how well Australia is per cent discount for the effects of the de- doing. I decided to inquire into the OECD. The preciation next time, irrespective of whether Press seems to print its reports regularly as the actual effect is higher. One thing we know though it is a very reputable organisation to for certain is that the depreciation effect is un- judge Australia's economy. Not one Australian likely to be less than two per cent. However, to is employed by the OECD, and it does not even achieve that face-saving solution, the Federal have an office or representative in Australia. Government has had to concede a three per cent productivity claim for next March despite Hon. D). J. Wordsworth: The report is written the fact that it is yet to be proved that there has by the Government been any increase in productivity. That national wage case decision symibolises so Hon. NEIL OLIVER: Bob Hawke writes it much of what is wrong with the Government's and sends it off to the OECD. What a wonder- economic policies. ful way to do things. What Bob Hawke says is, "Okay, we are on target, we are doing so well; Wages are not being discounted to take ac- let us send this stuff off to the OECD." It re- count of the effect of the devaluation. There- ceives the information, analyses it, and sends it fore, we are not retaining the potential com- back saying, "By golly, Australia is doing well." petitive advantage from the depreciation that Honestly, if Goebbels were alive today, mem- Mr Keating tells us we will get. This, in turn, bers can imagine the enormous opportunities means that the depreciation is not acting to he would have. correct the balance of payments problem which is actually getting worse. Obviously the international community is All of these factors are putting further down- expressing its concern at economic factors such ward pressure on the Australian dollar, which as Australia's decline in international in turn is driving up interest rates because the competitiveness, rapidly increasing overseas Government has chosen this policy to support debt, large budgeted deficits, large wage and the dollar in order to avoid the necessity of cost increases, and inflexible labour markets, renegotiating the accord with the ACTU. No all made worse by the ALP-ACTU accord. 4964 4964[COUNCIL)

The Treasurer's trip to give a reassuring endorsed by the Premier of Western Australia, speech in New York was the last sign of the Mr Brian Burke. In fact he went out of his way, panic. He had nothing new to say. What he did prior to the summit, to sell the option. The only say did not convince anyone that our economy matter on which he decided that he was on the was in good shape. The fall in the value of the wrong foot was the gold tax. In fact, the tax dollar since his speech says little for the power changes were put together so quickly that the of his great rhetoric and his grandstanding Government has not yet been able to clarify around the world selling his Budget and selling how many aspects of it, including elements of a the accord. The accord, which is supposed to be capital gains tax-which has been operative, by a consensus, is not consensus. All I can see in the way, since 19 September-will actually the consensus is an idea of where socialism work in practice. The Treasurer has been prom- walks hand in hand with private enterprise and ising a clarifying statement for weeks to clear where they hop into the same bed. It does not up the large element of uncertainty sur- work. rounding the detailed operations of the capital A money market participant attending one of gains tax. Yesterday's newspaper reported that the functions remarked that the Federal Government officials had promised that some Treasurer's speech could be likened to the pilot of the problem areas would be cleaned up this of a plane making an announcement in the week. This is at least the fourth time the middle of a flight that everything was all right statement has been made over the last few and there was nothing to worry about. That weeks. If it is said often enough, they will statement would cause people to worry about eventually get it right. why he said it and what really was wrong. The Treasurer should have remembered the old say- There is uncertainty about the effects of the ing, "If you have nothing to say, say nothing capital gains tax on bonus and rights shares. and keep your mouth shut." Companies undertaking bonus or rights share issues do not know where they stand in regard Government members: Hear, hear! to capital gains tax. That does not appear to Hon. NEIL OLIVER: Not on a subject such concern the Burswood Island Trust because it as this. The Government keeps pushing this appears to know all about it. I must admit that matter under the carpet. its rights issues, which are sitting at 1c, are not Hon. J. M. Berinson: It is no good giving what one would call setting the market on fire. others advice that you are not prepared to take This has caused a great deal of uncertainty and yourself, Mr Oliver. confusion on the stack market, and even the Hon. NEIL OLIVER: Even Senator Evans is Treasury has admitted that equity markets catching the same disease with his comment were not fully informed. A spokesman from the that the share market was over-reacting to the Treasury was recorded in early October as say- remarks by the Organisation of Petroleum ing that the Government was- Exporting Countries. It is a case of blame the messenger when things go wrong. .. , certainly very aware it is awkward for markets and shareholders living in this Earlier I briefly mentioned some of the prob- hiatus period .. . lems in the taxation changes proposed by the Government, and especially how they related We are all very conscious that during the to the business community, I now propose to look at the so-called short period before a further announce- tax package. The first thing ment market trading has been conducted to realise is that the proposed changes are any- in a way that is not totally satisfactory. thing but a package. They are the remnants of Mr Keating's option C. In other words, the tax was in full operation The PRESIDENT: Order! Hon. Tom Knight even though further announcements were knows that he is breaking a rule of this pending. What a wonderful situation to be in! Chamber. Any endeavour to talk over the bar How can one run businesses under those cir- of this Chamber is not only rude but out of cumstances? It appears that only some of the order. outstanding problems will be resolved in the Hon. NEIL OLIVER: They are the remnants statement. As yet, I have not seen them. It has of Mr Keating's option C after the various fac- been reported that other outstanding issues tions of the ALP and the ACTU had vetoed such as the treatment of the foreign exchange most of it, supplemented by other transactions and the position of non-residents hastily-worked out measures and fully will not be clarified for some time. [Friday, 22 November 1985] 496596

The problem is that Labor Governments do way he does, it is no wonder that he believes not think things through. On any analysis, this there should be a little bit of licence in enter- is a totally unsatisfactory way to introduce key tainment expenses. legislative changes, and that sort of thing is Hon. P. G. Pendal: There has been a 52 per going on in this House. We rush in where cent increase in State taxes. angels fear to tread. The attitude appears to be to get the Bill out of the way as soon as poss- Hon. NEIL OLIVER: Yes, there has been a ible, but it does not matter whether this House 52 per cent increase in State taxes and the is still sitting at 4.00 am. or 6.00 a.m. What Premier tells us that we are not paying any sort of example is it to the public of Western more tax. We are told that there have been no Australia for members in this House to be sit- increases in tax and everyone is receiving let- ting here at 4.00 a.m. discussing serious legis- ters advising them that taxes have not increased.' In actual fact, there has been a 51.7 lation which this Government should have per cent increase-it just does not add up. brought to this House well before now? The Government should have allowed time for suf- Several members interjected. ficient public comment. All this is, is a law- The PRESIDENT: Order! I ask honourable maker's club in an ivory tower on top of a hill, members to cease their interjections when they and we are only the residents. We represent the can see that the honourable member is people and we are interested in their com- endeavouring to wind up his comments. ments. The way in which this Government in- Hon. NEIL OLIVER: Thank you, Mr Presi- troduces its legislation, we are not given a dent. chance to obtain public comment. The principle should surely be that expendi- In the tax package of 19 September, the ture on entertainment is properly and fairly Government admitted that sonme fine detail incurred as part of earning business income. It remained to be settled, but in spite of this the should be allowed as a reduction. There is no tax is operative. The Government has decided excuse to arbitrarily disallow one category of to crash through on tax and in doing so is expenditure simply on the ground that it is too violating the rights of individual Australians hard for the Australian Taxation Office to sep- who are entitled to know the details of the tax arate the legimate from the illegitimate ex- package which has applied since 19 September penses. The abuses in the system should be 1985. eliminated and the coalition supports all The fringe benefit tax is against all principles reasonable efforts to achieve this goal. How- because it is levelled at the employer. In fact,' it ever, achieving this goal need not and must not is a de facto payroll tax. It will have involve a total ban on claiming entertainment anti-employment consequences. Combined expenses. with the projected increase in the corporate tax Not only has the Federal Treasurer hit very rate, which is now 49c in the dollar-it is hard at small businesses in the restaurant in- called an incentive to businesses and to family dustry which employs thousands of firms-yet it will result in many corporations Australians-we are now approaching the effectively paying tax at a rate of over 50 per America's Cup and the Australian 12-metre cent. This contrasts both sharply and series-but the Government is also hopping unfavourably with corporate tax rates in many into the restaurant industry. In the process, the indlustrialised countries. I might add that in Treasurer has delighted in directing cheap other industrialised countries the taxes are no- abuse and moralistic sermonising at the victims where near our company tax scales, and in of his attack. At a time when the Government many cases they are actually reducing them. should be encouraging the development of It is totally wrong and discriminatory of the small family businesses, the Federal Treasurer Federal Treasurer to argue that entertainment has launched into a campaign of personal vilifi- is never legitimately involved in earning ac- cation against the restaurant industry. Not only cessible income. What a lot of nonsense! Even is Mr Keating's attack uncalled for, it is also the Western Australian Premier, Mr Burke, has unwarranted. recognised that in certain circumstances enter- I hope that this House will pass this motion tainment may be a legitimate business expense. unanimously because the irony of the Govern- He is what is called a real politician because he ment's approach to entertainment expenses is sits on the fence, keeps both ears to the ground that, while Australian companies operating and does nothing. For a man who spends the both in Australia and overseas will be denied a Western Australian taxpayer's money in the deduction for legitimate expenses, companies 4966 4966[COUNCIL] based overseas, even if they are operating in groups so that there could be a floor show on Australia, will be able to claim a deduction the Saturday evening. He would also, perhaps, under the home tax system. This will also plan for an excellent banquet on the Sunday effectively apply to foreign-owned companies night. That is what happens in hotels overseas. which are based in Australia, but later remit There are beautifully carved iceblocks on the profits overseas which are recalculated using tables, and guests are invited to attend a special the home country's tax rules. function on the Sunday evening. The manage- We are yet to learn what the treatment of the ment overseas would be trying to look at every Government's trade commissioners' entertain- possible way to capture the market for a long ment expenses will be. However, even if they weekend holiday. are taxed, it will only be a case of the right hand This does not happen in Perth. In Perth, the paying the left hand. It is clear that such an manager gets in touch with the booking clerks approach, especially overseas, will do and tells them to tell people seeking accommo- long-term damage to our competitiveness and dation or wanting to book a meal at the res- will worsen our balance of payment problems. taurant that the hotel is booked out. Only buf- I refer now to foreign influence on the tax fet meals are served, and there is no such thing package. In the context of his concern about as five-star service, or even three-star service. international attitudes to the Australian econ- There is no entertainment, no music; it is omy, the Treasurer should recognise the many almost like walking into a mausoleum to walk problems Created by his tax package. Many as- into some of these hotels. This happens because pects of that package will work to weaken hotels cannot afford to pay the penalty rates rather than strengthen the Australian dollar. that apply on Saturdays, Sundays, and public The package will bias overseas investment holidays. towards loan investment rather than equity or A simple solution would be to take the aver- share investment; generally discourage over- age annual wage for people working in the hos- seas investment in Australia; discourage pitality industry and divide it by the number of Australian companies investing overseas; and, working days in a year, approximately 260, and most importantly, through the introduction of tell people to work the days they are rostered. a capital gains tax, reduce the future incentive In other words, if they work for 260 days in a for domestic savings, thus increasing our de- year, whether those days are Saturdays, penidence on overseas borrowings. All of this Sundays, or public holidays, they will still be will weaken OUr balance of payments and paid the annual average wage. I think that is a worsen our foreign debt problems which are reasonable way to go about varying our indus- some of the fundamental worries causing the trial relations system. current low level of the Australian dollar. Mr I know that the Minister for Employment Keating would do much to support the dollar if and Training will probably start talking about he acted to remedy the serious problems how there has been a lessening of the incidence associated with his tax package. of strikes in Western Australia and all that sort I turn now to subparagraph (i) of the motion of nonsense. with respect to the labour market. We must Hon. Fred McKenzie: It is not nonsense; it is consider alternatives to the present industrial fact. relations system. I put the example of our tour- ism industry, and refer, in particular, to hotels, Hon. NEIL OLIVER: I will not delay the motels, and the like that provide accommo- House talking about it, but I point out that the dation and restaurants that also must open on facts behind strike statistics are well weekends. In Australia, the position is that the documented in The West Australian of 12 owner-or manager-of a restaurant or hotel, November. In an article headed "Facts behind responsible to his principals, is expected to pro- strike statistics" it is stated- vide services on long weekends. On a long Using statistics, it can easily be proved weekend in Perth, one could expect that mem- that WA has entered a new era of indus- bers of farming communities in outlying dis- trial peace-disputes down more than 60 tricts would come to Perth; presumably, there per cent in a year. would also be the normal influx of inter- However, it all depends on what basis these national visitors. statistics are gathered. The types of statistics The owner or manager, one would think, that the Minister for Employment and Training some three months before that long weekend quotes to this House do not include statistics would look around to book entertainment for strikes during which the worker still gets [Friday, 22 November 19851 496796 paid. That is not the form of statistic he uses. A militant union leaders who are guilty of an demarcation dispute is also not classified as a abuse of power should be attacked in their hip strike for the purposes of his statistics. pocket nerve. In conclusion, I communicate to the House Australia is at the crossroads. Some people my impression of the attitude of the com- have told me that it is not at the crossroads, but munity. It is a very simple message that I con- on a one-way street to a dead-end alley. vey to the Government: Businesses must be Last Friday night I attended the 75th anni- allowed 10 operate; produce must be allowed to versary function of an organisation of flaw to markets; and, generally, the business consulting engineers that has been involved community is not interested in the politics of with almost every major building that has been so-called industrial reality, but only in the law constructed in Australia. It has an office in of the land. Western Australians are interested every State of Australia. I was told privately in the law of the land and that is all we should that the assets of consulting engineers were have to rely on. We, as lawmakers, are making their brains, and they intended to move those the laws for the people. All the people should assets out of Australia because they believed need to do is rely on the law of the land. Those that Australia was going down that dead-end with small family firms or family farms will not street- They do not believe that the situation tolerate renegade unions which choose to dis- can be reversed and prosperity returned to this obey industrial law. They will become country. I cannot accept that because I believe increasingly aggressive. the true Australians will see this through. Hon. S. M. Piantadosi: Who are "they"? Therefore, with much pleasure I commend Name them! the motion. Hon. NEIL OLIVER: Obviously Mr Piantadosi is not reading the newspapers. He Debate adjourned, on motion by Hon. Fred had better start getting hold of The Weekend McKenzie. Australian and The Australian and reading Hon. Neil Oliver: Typical, typical-drop it them. He should read what the chairman of the off the Notice Paper if you do not like it. National Farmers Federation, Mr Ian McLachlan has said. ADOPTION OF CHILDREN The people of Western Australia have simply AMENDMENT BILL had enough of people who will not obey the In Committee law. They will not be stood over by union Resumed from 20 November. The Chairman bullies. It must be remembered that the ma- of Committees (Hon. D. J. Wordsworth) in the jority of employers are also members of unions. Chair; Hon. Peter Dowding (Minister for Em- Therefore, they are not anti-union but they are ployment and Training) in charge of the Bill. against some of the union leaders, If a period of industrial stability were to result from the im- Progress was reported after clause 18 had plementation of my proposals, so be it. I be- been agreed to. lieve that Western Australians are prepared to Clause 19: Section 21 amtended- face the consequences until sanity prevails in our industrial laws. Hon. P. G. PENDAL: I apologise to the Min- ister for Employment and Training for the inci- Finally, I give as an example the dent which took place at this point in the de- Mudginberri abattoir dispute. bate on Wednesday when I unintentionally Hon. Peter Dowding: Is this your final, final misled him. That caused us to go through the concluding point? procedure for the adjournment of the debate Hon. NEIL OLIVER: The background is well until today. understood by the Minister and all members Hon. P. H. WELLS: I wish to make two here. The owners should pursue their claim for points in connection with the damages to a satisfactory conclusion. Overseas recommencement of this debate. Firstly, each contracts were not fulfilled due to the picketing member on the Opposition side is allowed to of Mudginberri. I predict that there will be no exercise a true conscience vote on this issue, backdown from that position. Trade unions and no member of the Opposition speaks on must realise that they are not above the law and behalf of other members of the Opposition. that if employers are to be penalised for Each member acts as an individual, and I be- breaking industrial agreements, so too must lieve the Standing Orders protect members unions be penalised. Therefore, unions and who make decisions on that basis. 4968 4968COUNCIL]

Secondly, I refer to the delay in debating this working in the adoption area, they are sensible matter. It was the Minister's decision to ad- amendments which take into consideration the journ debate on this Bill. I certainly expected need to protect all pantics. I was told that the the debate to continue on Wednesday, but he amendments were a responsible approach to made the decision to delay it and at no stage this issue. was the Opposition involved in that decision. I have taken the time to talk to a wide range The Opposition was prepared to proceed at any of people on this issue and, in line with the time that the Minister was ready. Government's announcement that the Bill con- Clause put and passed. tains protection for all parties, I hope that the Clauses 20 to 24 put and passed. Government will accept the amendments. The people who register on the negative contact Clause 25: Section 24AA inserted- register should be guaranteed protection. Hon. P. H. WELLS: I move an amend- The amendment will ensure that in cases in ment- which the relinquishing mother has registered Page 17, after line 16-To insert the fol- on the negative register, no identifying infor- lowing- mation whatsoever can be provided to the per- (iii) that identifying information cannot be son making application. It will probably only supplied under this section if there is arise on rare occasions, but I suggest it is the any entry in the Adoption Contact minimum protection that should be offered. Register to the effect that a natural Hon. PETER DOWDING: The Government parent of the adopted person does not opposes this amendment, and I ask members to wish to have contact with the adopted consider the implications of it very carefully. person; There are some real problems with the drafting. The effect of this amendment will be to ensure The CHAIRMAN: I have looked at the that what is perceived to be contained in the proposed amendments by Hon. P. H. Wells legislation is, in fact, provided for in the Bill. and Hon. Margaret McAteer. I have decided On the extremely rare occasions on which a that they do not appear to be in conflict. I can relinquishing mother may not wish to be put each portion separately and then finally contactcd by her adopted child, that wish allow members to decide whether the amend- should be respected. Experience in the United ments to the clause are satisfactory. In other Kingdom has indicated that fewer than one per words, I propose to put only the first of Mr cent of people involved in adoptions seek to Wells' amendments. I ask the Minister to con- make contact. Therefore, we can visualise that fine his debate to that amendment. the number of relinquishing mothers who are Hon. PETER DOWDING: I urge honour- likely to put their names on a negative register able members to listen very carefully to the will be very small indeed. However small that reasons that Mr Wells' amendment should not number is, we must ensure that people are be accepted. given the protection that the Government has Firstly, there are drafting problems. Mr stated is available to them. Wells has clearly pulled out of another Act, or From my examination of the Bill, adequate number of Acts, a clause which does not relate protection is not contained in the provisions. to our Act. In other words, it presupposes that Although provision is made for the the word 'identifying" is a word that will be relinquishing mother to put her name on a understood in the context of this Act and I do negative contact register, there is nothing that not believe it will be. I think it comes from the says the counsellor cannot provide the adopted New Zealand Act, and the word is defined in child with information on health matters, for that Act. That is a problem with the example, that could identify the mother. There presentation of it. is nothing to prevent identifying information Secondly, it is effectively what is in the New from being available to the person making the Zealand Act except that the New Zealand Act application; in fact, 90 per cent of the relevant does not go as far as this. Even if the person information will be readily available. who places the objection on the adoption it was with some pleasure recently that I register has been long since deceased, this received a telephone call from a counsellor places an embargo on an adopted person involved with the Victorian legislation. Appar- obtaining his or her birth certificate with infor- ently he had read the amendments listed and mation on it about his or her parents for ever. he has indicated that, from his experience That is not what occurs in New Zealand. In [Friday, 22 November 1985])96 4969

New Zealand, a negative entry in the register favour of Mr Wells' proposed amendment dim- results in an embargo for a 10-year period only. inish considerably if it is accepted that there Mr Wells' amendment would result in an absol- are rights against harassment written into the ute embargo. Act. If we are talking about the rights of people, I With respect, I think that honourable can understand it being argued that the ights mem- of a relinquishing parent are such that the bers must understand that the provision that relinquishing parent does not want the personal Mr Wells has on the Notice Paper goes well hurt and embarrassment of the subsequent dis- beyond any of the prohibitions that exist in the closures. I can understand that argument, and I New Zealand Act; and both in Victoria and in would want at some later stage to suggest that it the United Kingdom the research that has been needs to be balanced up. However, this is not carried out demonstrates that access to this in- an formation has not resulted and does not result amendment which simply protects a in embarrassment to relinquishing parents. relinquishing parent from embarrassment; it is a provision which prevents, for all time, an To sum up, Mr Wells seeks to do far more adopted child ever getting a birth certificate. If than any of the other Acts do in terms of members think about it for a minute, it actually preventing, for all time, access to any infor- goes further than that because it is saying that mation on a birth certificate. That prohibition no identifying information may be placed on runs whether Or not the objecting relinquishing the birth certificate. So if one relinquishing parent dies, and it runs in respect of a parent were to place a negative entry in the relinquishing parent who has no objection to register, it would not matter what the other the information being released. relinquishing parent thought or felt-there would be no identifying information at all. Let us be clear about it. We talk about the Quite frankly, in the view of the Government rights of the relinquishing mother. Some mem- that goes well beyond any argument in support bers have spoken about the rights of the of protection from embarrassment for a relinquishing father, but in a situation where a relinquishing parent who takes the step of im- putative father had almost no contact or no posing this situation. contact with the child, and no biological con- The next point I make is that in New tact except for the moment of conception-he Zealand the ight of the relinquishing parent to has never seen or had any dealings with the prevent the publication of his or her name on mother during her pregnancy or at or sub- the birth certificate ceases on the death of that sequent to the birth, but for some reason wants relinquishing parent. In other words, there are his name on the negative register-he prevents concurrent or personal rights, and those rights the child from obtaining his or her birth certifi- cease on the death of the holder of those rights, cate for ever, even though the relinquishing as it were. The proposed amendment seeks a mother might agree to it. right to impose, for all time, an embargo on any information being placed on a birth certificate. With respect, that seems to me an absurd proposal and I believe this Chamber should Let us think of the context in which that is focus on-and I thank Hon. Ian Medcalf for being argued. Mr Medcalf will be suggesting in his suggestion and careful drafting of it-pro- due course an amendment which, if accepted tecting the rights of the relinquishing parents by the Chamber, will provide protection from from harassment. The evidence is clear that it harassment for relinquishing parents. I give an has not been a problem in the countries where indication now that the Government will not the law has permitted information to be re- object to that amendment. leased; but even if it were, we are providing If we give protection from harassment to the severe penalties for harassment which can act relinquishing parent, how can it be argued that as a significant deterrent. the ights of the relinquishing parent should completely overrule the rights of the child, per- Whatever risk is left in terms of harass- haps now an adult, to obtain his or her birth ment-and I suggest from all the evidence and certificate? One can argue the right of the the proposed prohibition that it would be relinquishing parent to privacy to prevent har- miniscule-for the sake of whatever is left, assment, but surely it cannot be argued that the whatever miniscule prospects there are of em- rights of the relinquishing parent are of such a barrassment, we are interfering with the nature as to affect for all time the rights of the substantial rights of the adopted child, one of adopted child. I believe the arguments in which must be to obtain a birth certificate. 4970 4970COUNCILJ

The birth certificate will mark that child for to be adopted, and gave an undertaking to lose all time as an adopted child. For the rest of that all their rights. The children would be looked person's life, he or she will be unable to obtain after by their new mother and father, and the information about his or her parents. That is girls concerned would not contact them again. what the amendment proposes. That is such a Take the case where a young girl is now mar- substantial interference with the rights of the ried. She may not have told her husband, the adopted child and such a substantial and per- children, or other associated people of those manent embarrassment to the adopted child events. With the changing of the rules she must that the miniscule additional protection that now subject herself to going and telling some- the proposal would provide is not justified. I body in the department, something she never strongly urge honourable members not to pass thought she would have to do. She puts her the amendment. name in the register, thinking for the second Hon. P. H. WELLS: The Minister sought to time in her life that she has some protection, persuade the Chamber that this is a big bogey only to find that the,' legislation provides that to put in the clause. I must remind the after counselling, the person concerned can re- Chamber that the current law regarding secrecy ceive identifying information and come has been transacted by both Governments and knocking at her door. has existed for a long time. I wonder what Hon, Peter Dowding: Would you explain would happen if there was not a law which how that is a change in the law in regard to the enabled adoptions to go through. Many of release of the birth certificate? those girls are perhaps 14, 15, and 16. They may have opted out in terms of abortions, de- Hon. P. H-. WELLS: As I understand the pression, or even murder. So the law, which has position, the current law is that when an adop- not been changed by either Government, tion takes place a new birth certificate is though the Labor Government has consistently completed and the adopting parents are amended parts of it, has continued to recognise entered as the parents. There is provision to the rights of all parties. identify where the person was born, but the majority of people would not recognise the cer- Hon. Garry Kelly: The time has come. tificate as any different from any other birth Hon. P. H. WELLS: We are talking here certificate. It enables a person to receive a birth about changing the rights contained in the certificate. In many cases they may think that existing laws which were passed and supported the parents with whom they have grown up are by the Government, which has maintained the their own parents. Protection of those rights. It has been accepted I gather there may be situations where that the community is ready to change some of parents will tell the children that they were the ground rules. adopted, but sometimes they may not. If one I am not arguing about two people who want had adopted an Aboriginal, or if there were to come together but who should not come differences in terms of nationality the fact of together. Even if they do not, I am not adoption would be obvious. suggesting or moving amendments to stop any What I want to point out is that a girl, who of the information becoming available to them has gone through a dramatic experience for the other than for those who enter their names on second time in her life, may put her name on the negative register, which will not give infor- the negative register. The proposal is that this mation which will identify the particular per- should happen, whether she is married to son concerned. In this case the Government someone high up in the community or to an has provided a negative register. The Govern- ordinary person. There may later be the drama ment says that a person who does not want of somebody knocking on the door and she will contact may put his name on the negative have to explain the position to her husband and register. The Government has said this will be to her children. This will create some trauma in the protection. her life, and I am suggesting that she should be I have had discussions with some women protected on those odd occasions. who phoned me virtually in tears. They were The Minister raised the point about death. In fearful of the proposal, because some years ago, my speech in the second reading debate, I when they were 14, 15, or 16, they found them- pointed out that in a number of areas this legis- selves with a child in an area where the com- lation is defective; and the Victorian legis- munity looked askance at that sort of thing. lation, and much of the other legislation, took These girls made arrangements for the children that into consideration. A mother who puts her [Friday, 22 November 1985] 474971 name on the register may decide to change it 15 The Government has produced legislation years later. If she decides to change it, there is which looks after a certain section of our com- another change. munity, but it has not thought out other situ- In many places in the world, centainly in this ations in this area, and I am sorry for that. I do country, both Liberal and Labor Governments not want to delay the passage of this legislation. have respected the rights of people. I am saying I want to ensure that the people who want to that in 99.9 per cent of the cases that will be the get together can get together, arid I am only position, but if a person wants to exercise that suggesting that people are granted privacy in right, then all the health information should be cases where they have asked for it. provided, but the area where an undertaking I urge members to give serious consideration was given not to identify the partics should be to my proposed amendment. protected. The Government has said that pro- tection will be given, but the only way in which Hon. P. G. PENDAL: Everyone would ac- that protection can be given is by the inclusion knowledge that this is really the nub of the of this clause. matter. I Strongly associate myself with the amendment moved by Hon. Peter Wells, I do In terms of the effect of the clause, there are not mean this in a party political sense, but it subsequent amendments which will define to really does draw the battle lines for the philo- some degree that it relates to the birth certifi- sophical arguments that are raised when any of cate, but in this case it is indicating to the us seek to alter those conditions by which applicant, as is required by the two earlier pro- women, and to a lesser extent men, have in the visions, that if she does not want to be past gone about the business of relinquishing a contacted, her wishes will be respected. The child. change of law that the Government is propos- ing, together with these minor amendments, I spent a considerable part of my speech on will mean the majority of people will obtain the second reading drawing the attention of the information. It is only on those negative oc- House to what I thought was a relevant casions that people will put their names on the example in respect of a 72-year-old woman negative register. whose letter is now a matter of record. That woman posed the question which really should [Questions taken.] dominate the whole of our thinking in respect Hon. P. H. WELLS: This amendment, which of this matter, and indeed this pant of Hon. only tightens up the register, will protect the Peter Wells' amendment-the right of the per- rights of the child and certainly those of the son relinquishing a child to continue to have relinquishing mother. It will balance it out. I the same protecton of the law today as was point out to members that there are a number afforded five or even 50 years ago. of defects in this and other clauses in the Bill, and the Minister decided not to answer those Hon. Garry Kelly interjected. defects during his second reading reply. We Hon. P. G. PENDAL: Hon. Garry Kelly does would have had his direction. I suggest that the not help with his interjection because if he had Minister could have put amendments on the bothered to play a close part in the second Notice Paper. I draw the Minister's attention to reading debate he would know that probably the situation of that order being an issue. every member of this Chamber and certainly Clause 26(6) provides- members of the Opposition with whom I have The Director-General shall, upon the re- discussed the matter freely acknowledge that quest of a person whose name is entered in the adopted child has rights. This is not the the Adoption Contact Register, amend or question. No-one is saying that adopted child cancel the entry relating to that person. does not have rights. In this legislation, it is simply not possible to mix up a tin of black and I suggest members could move an amendment a tin of white paint and arrive at some sort of to cancel its effect on death. I would have to compromise. We either accept that the natural give serious consideration in respect of the or- mother has by law the right to protection of her ders and their likely effect. privacy, because that is what the law gave her The area of difficulty is in regard to the death at the time of relinquishing the child, or we of a relinquishing parent. I pointed out at the accept what Hon. Garry Kelly may second reading stage that this legislation con- conscientiously believe, that that right ought to tains a number of defects, and the Bill should be overridden by the right of the adopted child. be referred to a Select Committee so they could I have no quarrel with Hon. Garry Kelly if he be remedied. sees the right of the adopted child as being 4972 4972COUNCI Lj paramount. However, 1 do object to being Mr Medcalf quoted perhaps one of the most asked by interjection, "What about someone important sources when he quoted Mrs Judith else's right?", as if no-one had taken the matter Forsyth. He reminded the Chamber at that into account. If it was an easy Matter to time that as few as eight or nine years ago this resolve, I suggest that no-one would have woman, who was then in charge of the adop- invested so much time in this Bill, and I mean tion division within the Department for Com- that from both a Government and an Oppo- munity Welfare, said a number of things. sition point of view. Underpinning everything she said was the be- lief that, whatever changes we might consider This is one of those unresolvable questions. in the future in relation to our adoption laws, One either accepts one side of the argument, or we would never contemplate retrospective ac- one accepts the other side. I am saying as tion. I think that is the kernel of what Mr strongly as I am able-to repeat the argument I Medcalf quoted. I am entitled to ask what has used in the second reading debate, and to sup- happened to alter that view so dramatically in port most of the comments ably put by Mr the space of eight or nine years? This was from Wells-that in the ultimate, the final analysis, a woman who presumably was the most experi- the overwhelming or paramount right that enced public servant in these matters in the must be addressed is that of the natural mother State. Implicitly she supported the right of the and the natural father. person who had relinquished a child to privacy The Minister told us a few minutes ago that for all time. Members will recall those were her all would be well if and when we got to the words and not mine. stage where Hon. Ian Medcalf's amendment I have happily admitted before in this which deals with harassment is adopted. With Chamber that I generally tend to take a con- the greatest respect, I do not think that is the servative view of most of the things. I under- case at all. Mr Medcalf's amendment is cer- stand Mrs Forsyth was not considered to be a tainly an important part of a number of amend- conservative such as I might be, and yet only ments. Standing by itself it has really very little eight or nine years ago she was quoted in the value, and that is obviously not to denigrate Mr media as saying quite explicitly that whatever Medcalf or his amendment. It is simply saying changes there might be in our adoption laws we that his amendment is a bit like having the four would not see any changes that retrospectively wheels of a car without the body on top. One and adversely affected a woman who gave up a cannot view his amendment and other amend- child. ments in isolation from each other. To move to a final point with Mr Wells, I What I cannot get away from, with the best agree there seems to be some problem in this will in the world, is the knowledge that the law Bill about how far one denies that information. has guaranteed a relinquishing mother the right Do we continue to deny it after the death of the to privacy. I cannot get away from that as much natural mother, or in a few cases, that of the as I would like to accommodate 100 per cent natural father? I must admit I have not yet the wishes of the adoptee. Another point that is resolved that problem in my mind. It is signifi- relevant as a flow-on to that aspect is that cant that the matter of access to health infor- which was raised by Mr Medcalf in his speech mation, which I hope will be addressed shortly, on the second reading. is being raised in an Opposition amendment. In other words, that is something else which Hon. Peter Dowding: Are you saying it is a was not pan of the original Bill but which right to privacy or a right to absolute secrecy? many of us, and I hope the Government, will Hon. P. G. PENDAL: I see the difference, still see a great deal of value in. It may well be but I am saying that the two are bound up. The there is a good argument for making that pro- right to privacy is paramount and absolute. vision for a natural parent when he or she Is dead. I suggest that is the responsibility of the Hon. Peter Dowding: But is it absolute Government. secrecy? I would not vote against Mr Wells' proposed Hon. P. G. PENDAL: Hold on! The secrecy amendment simply because we have not aspect is really an administrative matter, and addressed that aspect. It is perhaps a matter for indeed that is part of the important amend- the next Parliament-in March, April or ment I hope to be addressing shortly, and part May-and if anyone on the Government or of what the Minister's amendment sought to Opposition side of the Chamber feels strongly address. enough to bring back an amendment and it is [Friday, 22 November 19851 474973 written carefully enough, I may well accept it bear that in mind when they consider the sup- myself. That is not a reason that we should fail port Mr Pendal is giving to Mr Wells' amend- to proceed down the path as outlined by Mr ment, Wells. Indeed, one is entitled to say we have I do think, members, that we have to keep a made slow progress on this Bill, for which I sense of balance. We are putting a lot of safe- make no apology. That slow progress has meant guards into the legislation. Nobody wants to things will probably he done better in this Bill see added distress. This Bill is trying to reduce than otherwise might have been the case. the trauma and distress and to satisfy the indi- I repeat my strong support for Mr Wells' viduals' sense of needing to know more about amendment because it preserves the inviolate themselves and their personal histories. That is undertaking-I would have thought it was all we are trying to do-nothing more than such-given to previous generations that the that. birth of a child and its adoption out to some- The other person mentioned is the public one else would remain the business of the servant, whom Mr Pendal mentioned as having parent unless he or she was prepared to make said a particular thing eight or nine years ago. that disclosure. We all know that time moves on, and this sub- Hon. KAY HALLAHAN: I wish to speak on ject has only recently surfaced to the field of this clause in respect of the matter raised by Mr public debate. Many people's opinions will Pendal and the letter he quoted to the Chamber change in a period of eight or nine years' dis- because I thought that letter would cause mem- cussion, and that hopefully is the promise of bers a great deal of concern. In bringing this humanity-that we will be able to discuss and matter to the notice of the Chamber earlier, progress our ideas. members might remember that Hon. Phillip I strongly support the case put by the Minis- Pendal referred to Jigsaw being involved in the ter on this issue. I would like members to dis- case. card-I think that is a fairly kind way of Consequently I took it upon myself to ask describing it-the amendment put forward by Jigsaw if it was familiar with the case because it Hon. Peter Wells. seemed to me that there were extraordinary Hon. PETER DJOWDING: I accept that this events associated with it and possibly the or- is a critical issue, and I wish to take some mo- ganisation would remember it. In fact Jigsaw ments to make some further comments in more did know the case very well, and the organis- detail. ation had been involved. It is quite clearly not a representative case. It is clear that this letter Firstly, it is not correct that this Bill will has not totally outlined the circumstances. substantially change the law in relation to the release of information because at present the In fact the relinquishing mother did agree to law is that the Registrar General may release meet her son, and I think that is the nub of it. If the information. It is a matter for the discretion we can accept that the relinquishing parent was of the Registrar General, so we are not facing a contacted and agreed to meet her son, then to major change in the law. We are faced with an some degree I believe that underlines the whole administrative proposition, which can be acted point of contention. upon on some occasions by the Registrar Gen- Hon. P. G. Pendal: She acknowledged that in eral, and on some occasions not. He can use his the letter. discretion, and Mr Wells is seeking to change Hon. KAY HALLAHAN: Why are we going that significantly. on with all this other stuff' She was approached Secondly, identifying information may in- and she agreed- clude the date and place of birth. One of the Hon. P. G. Pendal: Because he broke the points about Mr Pendal's letter from the sep- agreement. tuagenarian is that she was located tinder the Hon. KAY HALLAHAN: It is very difficult existing law. What we are proposing in our for us for we are getting into a very contentious legislation-with the assistance of Mr argument about human relations, which are Medcalf-is to provide increased support for always complex. This case is complex, and it the proposition that there ought not to be will not be in anybody's interest to outline all harrassment. This lady was located under the the circumstances associated with it, but I existing arangement- think it has to be made clear to members that Hon. P, G. Pendal: And this Bill seeks to the case outlined in the House is not in any way institutionalise and legalise that. That is the the total picture. I would just like members to objectionable thing. 4974 4974[COUNCIL]

Hon. PETER DOWDING: With respect, unreasonable way of assessing the view of the that is tripe. It is demeaning of Hon. Phillip public, and I am sure we would all acknowledge Pendal to have said that, because that is not that we need to look for some externial evi- what we are doing- No matter what law is dence. if it exisq in find nii? the rel views o passed, people will search for information and the community, and what the real views of the make a contact- Mr Wells' amendment is people involved in this issue might be. I suggest seeking to prevent a birth certificate ever that there is an opportunity in this case to test coming out and being given to an adopted child the water clearly. when one or other of the relinquishing parents Members will recall that the Minister for has taken a particular point of view at one Community Services set up the contact register stage. I think that is why it is worth saying that by administrative action on I July 1984. Since this is what we are protecting-it is not the that time there has been a considerable amount right to privacy; it is not the right to prevent of publicity. Hon. Tom Knight has had calls harrassment. We are saying that there is an and letters; Hon. Phillip Pendal has had calls absolute right to secrecy, despite the existence and letters; and I would say that anyone who of the child, who might now be an adult, de- has been involved in an adoption would have spite the fact of the birth, and despite the right had an opportunity in the period between I of that child to sonmc documentary evidence of July 1984 and now to resurrect in their own his or her birth. minds the issues that they might personally In other words, it is in order to provide ab- confront. The truth is that between I July 1984 solute secrecy, which I suggest would not and 14 November 1985 only one person in cause-as in the case of Mr Pendal's septua- Western Australia has made a formal regis- genarian lady-other avenues for gaining this tration of her desire for no contact. The num- information to occur. Mr Wells' amendment is ber of adoptees who registered seeking contact seeking to provide absolute secrecy against the was 150. right of a person for all time to be able to One hundred and forty four relinquishing produce a birth certificate. I do not believe that parents registered seeking contact. Fifty six this is a fair balancing of rights. I believe it to adoptive parents registered seeking contact, be an unfair balancing of rights. and 35 relatives of the adoptee registered Members in this Chamber arc often lobbied seeking contact. One person formally registered by one or another group of the public and I on the negative register. One person registered suggest that either members have a very selec- seeking a delay in contact-seeking, in other tive group of people who lobby them; or, words, some sort of counselling process first- alternatively, members tend to find support for and one person made a verbal inquiry their own views from comments that come into suggesting he or she wanted to register in the their offices. I can assure members that I have negative register but failed to do so. Three not had the sort of support for the propositions people sought registration in the negative coming into my electoral office- register. One of those persons merely sought a Hon. P. 0. Pendal: You never go there. type of counselling, one of them did not follow it up, and 395 persons who had been involved Hon. PETER DOWDING: Do not be pa- in the adoption process sought contact. thetic. This is a serious issue. All those figures suggest to me that, when we Hon. P. G. Pendal: I am treating it seriously. are balancing fights and when we are seeking to You are trying to denigrate people who have put forward the absolute right to secrecy to one had good feedback from their electorates. class of person caught up in the adoption Hon. PETER DOWDENG: Let me finish my processes, we are seeking to support a right point. when it appears, from our experience Over a period of in excess of a year, with all the at- Hon. Tom Knight: It seems strange that you tendant publicity, that almost nobody has don't get it. I have a big file in my office. sought registration on the negative roll. That is Hon. PETER DOWDING: I certainly do surely a compelling reason for not accepting the not, and all of the lobbying in my office has amendment. come from people who support the Govern- Hon. MARGARET McALEER: I take issue ment's moves. with the Minister on two points. First, I make Let me go a step further, because I am not it clear to the Minister that all the represen- suggesting that this is absolute evidence of the tations I have received were from people who view of the public. I am suggesting that it is an supported the Bill or who would have liked a [Friday, 22 November 1985J197 4975 more extreme form of the Bill. I did not receive I mentioned previously that I received a any individual representations from phone call from a lady who gave me a different relinquishing parents who did not wish to be view on this matter. She wanted a little protec- identified. However, I do not think, in taking tion or a little privacy. Something had fright- the whole matter into account, that on any Bill, ened that woman and she was concerned about let alone this one, one should judge it by the her future and her family's future. amount of lobbying one receives. Bills might We are concerned about individuals' rights. touch On matters of great importance in which This is a democratic society and people have no lobby group is interested. One should not rights. Those rights must be protected. That make a judgment on the amount of lobbying woman changed my thinking on this matter one gets, although one pays great attention to and I feel we must do something to help other the arguments put forward. people in the same situation as she is in. If, as in my case, no-one put forward the One person rang me and many people have argument for relinquishing mothers who might rung other members and have written many not wish to be identified, I would be required letters like the letter that was written to Hon. to form some idea of their point of view from Phillip Pendal. cases that I had heard about and would have to Hon. Peter Wells' amendment attempts to take into account the fact that there was an introduce something into the Bill which needs existing contract through the adoption which to be put in. At the same time, some people in guaranteed their privacy. It would not be a case the community require our support in a situ- of people just changing the rules. One would ation that may be unbearable for them. I am have to bear in mind that one was about to prepared, therefore, to support Hon. Peter break, although legally, a contract. That seems Wells' amendment. to be a substantial matter which, quite apart The CHAIRMAN: Order! I may have said from any lobbying that might occur, one has to that we will be going through this Bill clause by decide on. clause. These amendments are not in conflict The Minister said that Hon. Peter Wells' with each other. If any members wish to amend amendment is seeking a decision which will Mr Wells' amendment they would have to stand for all time. It is quite clear, from a later move that amendment now because, once this clause in the Bill, that the relinquishing parent Committee votes on the amendment, assuming can change his or her mind after having made a that members decide to support it, I cannot negative entry in the register. It is true, of then decide to accept another amendment. course, that the amendment has not allowed for Members will have to foreshadow that they re- the case of a parent who dies after making such quire to amend Hon. Peter Wells' amendment an entry. As H-on. Phillip Pendal has said, this now. The only other way to amend it would be should be addressed at a later stage or could be to recommit the Bill. amended in the present Bill. Hon. E. J. CHARLTON: The comments I made the other night were very brief, but I On balance, I support the amendment. I reiterate them because they apply to the think some of the Minister's arguments were amendment before the Chamber. specious. It has not been explained clearly what the Hon. TOM KNIGHT: In contrast to what words "identifying information" mean in the Minister said about the number of letters terms of this amendment. Other amendments he gets in his office, I have received as many as state that certain things should be taken into 20 and 30 a week. I have answered every one of account and that the Director General can them. They have come from all over Australia make certain disclosures and so forth. and from people with differing views on adop- Does this amendment mean that identifying tion. information cannot be supplied if there is a In contrast again to what the Minister said to notation in the adoption contact register that the Committee, my original views on adoption the relinquishing parent does not want to make were completely different from what they are contact with the adoptee? today. I have been involved in this issue, have We have two extreme points of view and spoken to people about it, and have sought obviously, as always happens, the area between people's views on it. I have used the lobby is disregarded. On the one hand, a point has groups to further my beliefs and ideas on this been made that a minority of people may not matter. want contact and I am Sure that the adoptee 4976 4976[COUNCIL] concerned would respect that wish and the We appear to be bogged down in this de- relinquishing parent should not be forced into bate-interested people have been waiting having contact. On the other hand, that should around the building for the Committee stage not stop the adoptee from obtaining the infor- for quite some time now-and it all comes itaini lie requicm,. back to two extreme points o1 view. I will vote against the amendment because it Hon. Peter Dowding: This amendment is not goes too far. It the amendment is accepted I about contact. It is only about issuing a birth will seek at an early stage during the next sit- certificate. ting of Parliament to introduce an amendment to protect the one-off situation-it may not be Hon. E. J. CHARLTON: It states, "all identifying information". a one-off situation;, it may affect the majority of people. All sorts of figures have been quoted by Hon. Peter Dowding: It is only about birth the Minister, but I am unsure of the situation. certificates. I ask members that when they make a de- cision on this amendment they bear in mind Hon. E. J. CHARLTON: If the relinquishing the people who have demonstrated in a volun- parent has put his or her name on the negative tary capacity over a number of years that time register- is a good healer and that they would want to take advantage of the situation to allow contact Hon. Peter Dowding: The adoptee cannot get to be made. the information. I try to put myself in the position of both the Hon. E. J. CHARLTON: I advise the Minis- relinquishing parent and the adoptee. Certainly ter that I am voting against the amendment. I would want protection if I were a relinquishing parent and I felt that way; and if I However, it is a shame that members are agree- were an adoptee I certainly would not want to able to legislating to make it possible for an be denied the opportunity to ascertain my adoptee to obtain his birth certificate in order nationality, my place of to ascertain his background. Commonsense birth, and the different should prevail. aspects outlined in this Bill. We should look at this legislation carefully The comments to date have been made about because it is very easy to go too far, and in the the relinquishing parent who, I accept, is im- end we could make it harder for people to trace portant in this issue. However, the other night I their identities. said in this Chamber that in any question in Sitting suspendedfromn 3.46 to 4. 00 p. m. life one must put oneself in the other person's position. This applies in this case, whether it be Hon. P. H. WELLS: The important point is the adoptee or the relinquishing parent. We that identifying information might lead to the want to protect both parties but we cannot in- person on the contact register being able to be clude something in a Bill and say it will benefit located. Still other information is provided to 99 people out of every 1OO. [ would like to see a other persons. Subsequent clauses provide for clause in this Bill that will protect the one per- exceptional reasons under which information son, but I am not prepared to deny protection may be divulged. Therefore, members should for the other 99. It is a shame that the Govern- support the amendments because they will pro- ment has not included something of this nature tect the minority of cases seeking protection, in the Hill. It is also a shame that it has not but will not prevent health information and the been included in the form of an amendment. I like being divulged. am as guilty as any other member for not Hon. PETER DOWDING: Hon. Ian having brought forward a suitable amendment. Medcalf drew to my attention something that An amendment should be along the lines that if he regarded as an inaccurate statement on my a relinquishing parent does not want contact part. So that there can be no question of the with the adoptee after having received the Chamber not understanding my point, I will necessary counselling, his or her wish should be rephrase it. I said that the effect of accommodated. relinquishing parents placing their names on the negative register could for all time deny The adoptees who have spoken to me about adoptees access to their birth certificates. I add, this matter are quite happy to accept that as a rider for the sake of clarity, that that is the relinquishing parents who do not want to case unless the relinquishing parents change make contact, should not have to do so. their minds, in which case they would make [Friday, 22 November 1985] 474977 another entry in the register and the infor- Hion. PETER DOWDING: In protecting the mation would then be available. However, the rights of that minority, do we affect the rights register cannot be changed after they are dead. of the majority? Hon P. H. Wells: You could amend it. Hon. P. G. Pendal: We did that for you over Hon. PETER DOWDING: It is a matter of two years ago when we abolished capital pun- principle. ishment. I am sorry the Hon, Tomn Knight did not Hon. PETER DOWDING: That is a moral understand what I was saying. I was not issue, and this is a matter of rights. We are suggesting that people had not contacted him talking in this case about competing rights. The or rung him to express a point of view. I said point made in support of these amendments that we were being asked to pass a law, to assess has been that in the balancing act of competing the question of parties' rights, based on infor- rights we should come down in favour of the mation coming into our respective electorate rights of the relinquishing parents to say offices. That information may or may not be an whether the adoptees should have access to accurate assessment in quantitative terms of their birth certificates. views in the community. More importantly, we The evidence shows, in undeniable terms, are being asked to pass a law which flies in the that in protecting that right we would be face of the only reliable quantitative infor- extinguishing the right of the adoptees. We mation that there is. I suggest that that is the would be doing so for the sake of' a very small point that Hon. Peter Wells has not answered. minority of those who were involved with Quantitative information is available. adoptions. Should we pass a law adversely affecting the H-on. P. G. Pendal: I agree with that point. rights of 99 people at the request of one per- Hon. PETER DOWDING: That is the point son? I said earlier that 395 people had that I am making. It is my argument that that is participated in the contact register system. The wrong. If those promoting these amendments more accurate figure is 388. were to say that it was their moral view that Hon. P. G. Pendal: They participated relinquishing parents ought to have the right to voluntarily, which is the important element. deny to adoptees access to birth certificates, I Hon. PETER DOWDING: Yes, voluntarily, would understand that, but they can hardly but they were able to protect their rights to base their arguments on any experience of the non-access. Out of those 388 people, only one views of the real world, because those views has definitely stated that no form of contact show that the overwhelming preponderance of was wanted. One person wished to stop 150 people who have been involved in an adoption adoptees from having the right to obtain this situation have not sought to prevent adoptees information. from having thatL access.- Hon. Tomn Knight: They only wanted to stop As I said to Hon. Eric Chariton, the issue one. here is not that of access; it is not that of con- Hon. PETER DOWDING: But the honour- tact. The evidence is that, despite the existing able member wants, on the evidence before US, difficulties in obtaining access to information, to pass a law that will affect the rights of 150 people still find their natural parents. That evi- people-that will prevent their having access to dence comes from honourable members who information about their birth for the sake of are supporting the amendment. Thus the issue one person. is not about contact, which is covered by sub- sequent clauses. The issue is that of a document Hon. P. Ff. Wells: Just one. evidencing one's birth. That is the central issue. Hon. PETER DOWDING: The member The other issues of harassment, right to wants to pass a law. His evidence for wanting confidentiality, and the like, are caught up in to pass a law that would effectively expunge the other clauses of the Bill. We are debating rights of those adoptees is that there may be whether people should have a right to- a birth relinquishing parents who do not want to be certificate. Mr Welts wants to say that that contacted. He feels that their rights to privacy birth certificate should contain no information should be respected. However, the evidence of which he describes as identifying information. 388 cases suggests that only a very small min- Identifying information could include the ority of people do not wish to be contacted. date and place of birth. All those facts which Hon. Tom Knight: You arc missing the appear on a birth certificate may well be point. identifying information. That is, in my respect- 4978 4978COUNCILI fiji submission to the Committee, quite Wrong very important. I remind members that one and it is interference with the rights of the per- point has not been made really clear in the son. Whether the person proceeds to locate the debate, although members have referred to it, natural parent is only partially related to the and that is the rights of the child. The child qutionr of what is 'inithe binh certificate. it could be of any age, but the ones we are con- may be that the person will locate the natural cerned about are the adults who in my opinion, parent in some other way, hence our support at and in the opinion of many members present, this stage for the anti-harassment provisions, have a right to receive a copy of their birth and debate Over the confidentiality provisions, certificates. That is the fundamental issue we and in relation to the register and obligations are now considering. for counselling before proceeding down that path. I have considered the odd cases that have I urge honourable members opposite to think been quoted, but the fact is that there is no carefully about the provisions in lion. Peter room for a Chamber such as this to make laws Wells' amendment and to oppose it. on the basis of anecdotal evidence. We have heard much consistent evidence in this field Hon. TOM McNEIL: I support the remarks about the parties involved in the adoption tri- made by the Minister and also those made by angle. They have worked, discussed, my colleague, Hon. E. 3. Chariton. I do not compromised, and debated the issues. They doubt that the amendment moved by Mr Wells have also been extraordinarily successful in was put forward in good faith, but it is import- winning the support of the media. We have all ant to remember that if we support that amend- seen reports of the heart-warming harmonious ment, the heart will be torn out of the legis- reunions that have taken place over many lation. years. We all like to think that those reunions Once this Bill is passed, it will become law will be harmonious, but we all know that in the and we should not allow a minority situation to field of human relationships that will not influence us unduly. The evidence that has always be the case. However, the Bill allows for been presented to the Committee substantiates the situation in which harmony is not achieved the case put forward by the Minister; it suggests and in which safeguards are needed. that only a small number of parents will wish to register on the non-contact register and will I do not disagree with any member who has thus express a desire not to meet the adoptee. put forward the case to this committee that safeguards are needed. 1 have not heard any I do not know why we have debated this members say that they are not and much amendment for so long, and I hope that when thought has gone into strengthening those safe- members vote on this issue they will not do so guards. The amendment by the Minister will on party lines. The members of the National strengthen them and he has indicated that the Party are not in agreement on this matter, and Government will accept the amendment we shall all exercise a free vote on the issue. I put forward by Mr Medcalf. The process is towards hope that we shall act as a House of Review strengthening the provisions so it cannot be and that members will form their own said that anybody is unconscious of the need to opinions. Members should not feel obliged to safeguard the parties involved. However, very vote in a certain way because their colleague few instances could arise and for that reason we has moved an amendment. If we did that we should support the legislation introduced by would not be reviewing the legislation. the Government. I can see great merit in the amendment moved by Hon. 1. 0. Medcalf, but in all sin- We should ignore or vote against the amend- cerity I can give no support to the amendment ment put forward by Hon. P. H. Wells. move by Monn. P. H. Wells. I have spoken to Although I think his intent is genuine, his point him privately about this matter. of view is not adequate for any real safeguard I believe the Committee should support the and, what is more disturbing, it is denying the Government on this legislation and that the basic rights of adopted children. We are trying amendment should be defeated. to improve the legislation of this State; we do not want to deny those rights. I have heard H-on. KAY KALLAIIAN: I have been very many comments about why the Government concerned at the way the discussion has had not introduced the legislation to protect proceeded on this clause, which is quite clearly this basic right before 1985. It is a fact that in [Friday, 22 November 1985] 49.79

1985 we shall enshrine in our legislation, hope- Amendment put and a division taken with the fully, a fundamental human right. I have not following resulIt- heard a comment that leads me to believe any- 'Cs 16 thing overrides that basic right, particularly Hon. C. J1.Bell Hon. N. F. Moore when we have talked ad nauseam about the Hon. V. J. Ferry Hon. Neil Oliver needs for safeguards. Of course, we need safe- Hon. H. W. Gayfer Hon. P. G. Pendal Hon, Tom Knight Hon. 1.G. Pratt guards and the proposals Provide those safe- Hon. A. A. Lewis Hon. W. N. Stretch guards. H-on. G. C. MacKinnon Hon. P. H. Wells Hon. 0. E. Masters Hon. John Williams Hon. 1.G. Medcalf Hon. Margaret McAleer There is empirical evidence to support the (eller') fact that 81 per cent of adoptees have no desire )eS Is whatever to contact their natural parentis. That Hon.)J. M. H erinson Hon. Robert Hetheringlon is an enormous percentage. Also, 64 per cent of Hon. J. M. Brown Hon. Garry Kelly Hon. E.J1. Charlton Hon. Tom McNeil adoptees wish only to complete their sense of Hon. D. K. Dans Hon. Mark Nevill self-identity. Members may remember the Hon. Pecer Dowding Hon, S. M. Piantadosi other evening that I referred to the article in a Hon. Graham Edwards Hon, Tom Stephens book on adoption regarding people having ac- Hon, Lyla Elliott Hon, Fred McKenzie Hon. Kay Hallahan cess to their birth certificates, and a great deal (relief) of that book said that people simply need to Amendment thus passed. complete their sense of self-identity. The ac- tions of this Committee are very important and Hon. P. H. WELLS: I move an amend- I cannot stress that more strongly. met- Page 17, line 29-To delete the words "applicant; and" and substitute the follow- It has also been stated that 17 per cent of ing- adoptees are said to be naturally curious about their origins. We can all understand that feel- adopted person; ing. I can remember when I was a child Amendment put and passed. wondering if I had been adopted, such was the secrecy surrounding adoptions in those days. It Hon. P. H. WELLS: I move an amend- was said that a whole host of people wondered men 1- whether they had been adopted and many felt Page 17, after line 36-To insert the fol- that their sense of identity was threatened, lowing- without cause. and (d) shall not supply an extract from, or In fact, as time went on there was clear evi- certified copy of, the original entry dence to me that I was not an adopted child. I of the birth of the adopted person in was the natural child of my parents. When laws the register of births under this sec- are shrouded in secrecy, we throw the whole tion if there is any entry in the psyche of our community into disarray. Adoption Contact Register to the ef- fect that a natural parent of the adopted person does not wish to This year we can straighten out that disarray have contact with the adopted per- and we can say that there are certain funda- son. mental rights our citizens should have access to, and a birth certificate must be one of them. Hon. PETER DOWDING: I can only be I ask members to disregard the very emotional critical of Hon. P. H-. Wells in putting up an arguments put forward and to think back on amendment, the effect of which is utterly unac- the address of the Minister. He has put a very ceptable to the Government. How is an lucid case in support of this legislation, and I adopted child to join the local football team think Hon. Ian Medcalf is overdoing it with when the child has to take an extract of birth? respect to the need for additional safeguards. If H-e gets that extract of birth from the registrar's safeguards are to reassure people, let us have office. Extracts and certificates are two differ- them, but let us nor deny people their rights. ent things. The certificate issues with a large Let us, this afternoon, move in such a way to amount of detail in it. The extract simply bring in sensible legislation that ensures records the fact of birth. What Hon. Peter people's basic human rights. Wells intends to do is prevent an adopted child 4980 4980COUNCIL) doing that. At the moment, at least, a child can faith that when an adopted person applied for a get an extract of his birth certificate so that passport he had to produce the original entry of when he joins a football team, goes to school, birth; that is, the certificate of the original en- or joins the tee-ball association, he can an to try the registrar's office and obtain an extract. I checked very carefully with the Registrar This debate has proceeded on the basis of General on the procedure. He told me that was ill-conceived views of a complex social issue. In not correct. He is called on every now and then my view it is absolutely intolerable for this to issue certificates to people who have been Chamber to consider penalising children or adopted, -and they receive the same kind of adult adoptees. by preventing them from certificate, to all intents and purposes, as every- obtaining an extract of their birth. body else, and it shows the adopting parents as Hon. P. G. Pendal: Emotional claptrap! the parents. Whether one is adopted or not, one can ask Hon. PETER DOWDING: Of course it is! I for an extract, which is relatively cheap, or for wish Mr Pendal would deal with this issue a certified copy of a certificate of birth. If one is seriously. Where there is a negative entry in the adopted, the certificate is just like anyone register under this proposal, the existing ar- else's. One is treated in exactly the same way rangements where a child is able to obtain an and the fee is paid. In the case of a certified extract to join a tee-ball team will be abolished. copy it is $ 10. 1 know because I had to get one Hon. MARGARET McALEER: In my the other day. That gives information about the opinion the Minister is quite wrong, because date and place of birth, and it shows the the effect of the amendment is simply to pre- adopting parents as the parents. vent the original birth certificate or extract of it Hon. Peter Dowding: The extract does not being obtained. Every adopted child has a contain that information. proper birth certificate. Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF: It gives the same Hon. Peter Dowding. Thai is not correct. information on the extract in the case of an Hon. MARGARET McALEER: My under- adopted person as in the case of anyone else. standing is that every adapted child is supplied Hon. Peter Dowding: That is what I am say- with a birth certificate with the names of the ing. adaptive parents on it; therefore, when the Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF: The Minister is child applies for a birth certificate, a copy, or wrong. One can join a football club with an an extract, the extract is from that birth certifi- certified copy. I have never heard cate. There is no identifying mark on that birth extract or a certificate, so unless somebody is an expert he of a football club which wants a certified copy, would not be able to say that it was the certifi- but if one is wanted it can be obtained by an cate of an adopted child. adopted person without any trouble. Hon. PETER The Minister appears to have misunderstood DOWDING: 1 do not accept the section. This amendment refers to the ori- that. The point is that an extract is a document ginal entry of birth. That is entirely different. which issues from the register of births, deaths The original entry is the entry which relates to and marriages, and records material about the the natural parents, and that is the one which date and place of birth. An extract can mean the Minister appears to be thinking is the entry some information from the original birth cer- required by football teams and anybody else. tificate. But the information from the original That is not so. The adopted person can receive birth certificate which will be recorded in the an extract or a certified copy, the same as any- extract is the date of birth. The member is one else, without any problem. The only differ- suggesting by this amendment that that cannot ence is that in the case of an adopted person it be done. shows the adopting Parents instead of the natu- Hon. MARGARET McALEER: There must ral parents. be no extract from the original. There is no I also asked the Registrar whether he used reason why there should be. It is consequential the letter A or some identifying mark on these on the first point, whichi is to deny access to the certificates, because I had in mind that some original birth certificate. years ago this had been the case. He said it used Hon. 1. G. MEDGALE: Perhaps I can throw to be the case, but there were various corn- some light on this. The other day I received a plaints, and after discussions with the Parlia- telephone call from a lady who told me in good mentary Commissioner, the practice has been [Friday, 22 November 1985])98 4981 discontinued. No special identifying mark now Des 15 appears on an adopted person's certificate of Hon. J. M. Berinson Hon, Robert Hetherington Hon. J. M. Brown Hon. Carry Kelly birth. Hon. E. 3. Chariton Hon. Tom McNeil Hon. D. K. Dans 1-on. Mark Nevill Hon. PETER DOWDING: If Hon. Ian, Hon. Peter Dowding Hon, S. M. Fiantadosi Medcalf is correct, why include reference to the Hon. Graham Edwards Hon. Tomn Stephens extract? The member has already said the ex- Hon. Lyla Elliott Hon. Fred McKenzie Hon. Kay Hallahan tract does not record any information about the me/te) antecedents of the child. Amendment thus passed. Hon. P. H. Wells: The extracts of the antecedents. Hon. P. H. WELLS: I move an amend- ment- Hon. PETER DOWDING: No extract records information about the antecedents of Page 18, lines 8 to 17-To delete the child. The child's birth is on the original subelause (4) and substitute the follow- birth certificate and the subsequent birth cer- ing- tificate. The extract of the information con- (4) Where the Director-General has tains the child's name and the date of birth received an application under from the original certificate, the same infor- subsection (1) and is satisfied that- mation as appears on the second certificate, It does not include identifying information. (i) the adopted person has received counselling by an approved coun- if 1 am wrong, it is because there is no sellor; and mechanisism for providing identification. It does not show anything about the antecendents (ii) there is no entry in the Adoption Contact Register to the effect of the child. If the member is wrong, the that a natural parent of the consequences are quite serious, adopted person does not wish to I do not believe that this amendment is have contact with the adopted required, because under the existing legislation person, the discretion rests with the Registrar General. the Director-General shall apply to the The amendment is removing that discretion Registrar-General for the issue to the and imposing an obligation not to provide the Director-General or to the adopted information. person of an extract from, or certified copy of, the original entry of the birth Hon. Margaret McAleer has foreshadowed in the register of births relating to the an amendment to provide discretion, but only adopted person. in exceptional circumstances. The words which I understand she proposes to make reference to Amendment put and passed. are "exceptional circumstances relating to Hon. MARGARET McALEER: I move an health or otherwise." Obviously the circum- amendment- stances are very limited. Page 18, after line 30-To insert the fol- In any event, I think enough has been said. lowing new subsections- The Government opposes this amendment, (7) Notwithstanding any other provisions and I believe it ought not to be supported. of this Act, where the Direc- tor-General has received an appli- Amendment put and a division taken with the cation for information from any per- following result- son having a sufficient interest relat- ing to an adopted person or the natu- Ayes 16 ral parents, adopting parents or rela- Hon. C. J. Bell Hon. Neil Oliver Hon. V,.J. Ferry Hon. P. 0. Pendal tives of an adopted person and con- Hon. Tom Knight Hon. 1.0G. Pratt siders that by reason of exceptional Hon. A. A. Lewis Hon. W. N. Stretch circumstances, relating to health or Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon Hon. P. H. Wells otherwise, it is desirable to release any Hon. 0. E. Masters Hon. John Williams Hon. 1.0. Medealf Hon. D. J. Wordsworth information he has to the applicant he Hon. N. F. Moore Hon. Margaret McAleer may, subject to the approval of the (Teller) Minister and subject to such con- 4982 4982COUNCIL)

ditions as the Director-General or the cause we were also trying to safeguard the Minister may stipulate, release such relinquishing mother in the ordinary circum- in formation. stance. (8) Any person who breaches a condition I hope that this amendment will be sufficient imposed under subsection (7) com- to give an additional right to the adopted ch ild. mits an offence. Hon. PETER DOWDING: I wonder if I Penalty: $2 500 or imprisonment for could entice Hon. Margaret McAleer 10 con- six (6) months. sider sympathetically a small amendment to The intention of this amendment is to provide her proposed amendment before it is voted access to information about an adopted per- upon? The advice I have received is that cir- son's background to any person, if it can be cumstances which give rise to the need for this shown that lie has a real interest in the matter information being provided are not excep- and in the adopted person and that there is a tional; they are quite often fairly ordinary cir- real need for the inform-ation to be given. I cumstances-for instance, if an adoptee is left mention the example of a doctor treating a money in a will, or in the case of the health patient who is denied access by virtue of the reasons to which Hon. Margaret McAleer re- endorsement on the register in a case where the ferred . person's disease is thought to be hereditary. Since the discretion as to checks and bal- Another case is that of a marriage between ances not only requires the Attorney General adopted persons, where it is suspected that but also the Minister to be involved in the there might be some history of mental disease process, would the honourable member accept or hereditary disease, such as Huntington's dis- that instead of the word "exceptional" the ease, existing in the family of the adopted per- word "Particular" become part of her proposed son, and the doctor is again denied access to amendment? It would then read "particular cir- the original birth certificate. One can imagine cumstances" instead of "special circum- other circumstances which might, for instance, stances". This will mean there will not have to relate to inheritances or possible marriages be- be exceptional circumstances because that tween siblings, in which cases certainly the word, frankly, might limit it beyond the cir- natural parents should be identified. cumstances that already exist for the supply of This amendment leaves the judgment of this information and which occur from time to "exceptional circumstances" to the Attorney time. General and to the Minister, and it allows them Hon. MARGARET McALEER: I agree with to impose such conditions as they might, but the Minister. Perhaps "exceptional" has a not necessarily, deem necessary. When I use rather severely limiting meaning. I accept the the word "conditions" I mean simply that, sup- suggestion made by Hon. Ian Medcalf that pose the name of the relinquishing parents was "special" would be a preferable substitute. being communicated to a doctor, the Minister Hon. PETER DOWDING: I move an might stipulate that the Registrar-General amendment to the amendment moved by Hon. should not release those names to the adopted Margaret McAleer- person Or perhaps to publish them in any way, To delete the word "exceptional" ap- and this is quite a normal condition. pea ring in the proposed new subsection (7) I understand there are cases in some families and substitute the word "special". of psychiatric disorders, which it would be very Amendment on the amendment put and unfortunate if an adopted person were passed. informed about. I base that point on the United Kingdom law dealing with the matter. Amendment, as amended, put and passed. A penalty is attached to this amendment Clause, as amended, put and passed. wherein a person who breaches the conditions Clause 26: Section 24AB inserted- would be committing an offence for which the Hon. P. G. PENDAL: I am asking the Com- maximum penalty would be $2 500 or six mittee to consider a series of insertions in this months' imprisonment. clause and to support them. Members will be While We regard the amendments of Hon. aware that under the Bill presented by the Peter Wells, which have been passed, as an Government, the Registrar-General would immediate safeguard for the relinquishing have the power not only to publicise the estab- parent, we would not wish to deny necessary lishment of the adoption contact register, with information to an adopted child simply be- which I have no quarrel, but also the power [Friday, 22 November 1985J 498398 under proposed subsection (5)(b) on page 20 of have not had time to look at all the the Bill to invite adopted persons and natural eventualities, to amend this proposed parents to record their wishes. t have no subsection. I move an amendment- objection to any measure which would per- Page 20, line 22-To add after the word suade people to submit their names to the "person" the words- record voluntarily; I outlined that during the and in the event of the death of the second reading debate. Given that the Corn- person whose name is so entered can- mittce has now made a decision in relation to cel the entry relating to such person Mr Wells' amendment, I suggest there is really no trauma in accepting the amendments I have The effect of subclause (b) is that it provides listed for a new subclause (5). the Director General with the opportunity at the request of a person whose name is entered The essential difference is that under my in the adoption register to amend or cancel the amendment the Registrar-General, instead of entry relating to that person. That takes into inviting adopted persons as the Government account the situation the Minister raised of a proposed-which may mean he could obtain person's entry being in the negative register for- access to all those records and then write or ever; under this amendment, in the event of otherwise make an approach to a natural that person's death the right of entry on the mother, or for that matter a natural father, negative register is cancelled. As a result, the which I would find unacceptable for much the adoptee is able to get the information on his or reasons we heard earlier in this debate-would her birth certificate after that person's death. be given the power to advertise his work in this respect. He could perhaps do this by way of Hon. P. G, PENDAL: I will say for the advertisements in the births, deaths, and mar- record what I have iaid to Mr Wellh in private. riages page of the newspaper that most people It was incumbent on the Government to come consult on a daily basis. That would achieve back at some future time with an amendment almost the same end as the Government's pro- to cover the situation relating to the death of a posal. person. It is a bad principle to make last-minute changes 30 seconds be Fore a vote is I move an amendment- to be taken. I will support Mr W ;ls, but]I do Page 18, line 32-To delete "section is" not think it does justice to the proper scrutiny and substitute the following- of legislation. sections are Hon. PETER DOWDING: I do not accept Amendment put and passed. always what Hon. Phillip Pendal says and I will not say that I accept it on this occasion but in Hon. P. G. PENDAL: I move an amend- the circumstances the Government will support ment- that amendment. Page 20, lines 7 to 18-To delete Amendment put and passed. subsection (5) and substitute the follow- Hon. P. G. PEN DAL: I would make a very ing- brief comment in relation to the insertion- (5) The Director-General shall from time to time, by advertising in such manner PointIs of Order as he considers appropriate, publicize Hon. PETER DOWDING: As I understand the establishment of the Adoption it, this is the insertion of a new clause, and the Contact Register and invite adopted procedures of this Chamber require us to pro- persons and natural parents to record ceed through the Bill and deal with the inser- their wishes in relation to obtaining tions of any clauses in the order in which they information about, or meeting or pro- were amended. Mr Chairman, you would be viding information to, another person aware why clause 20A could not be dealt with. whose name is, or may in the future If that is not the reason I want to move after be, entered in the Adoption Contact clause 28 that the Bill be amended by the inser- Register. tion of clause 20A. Amendment put and passed. The CHAIRMAN: 1 will not uphold that Hon. P. H_ WELLS: I raise a question in point of order. I do not believe that these are relation to line 22 on page 20. One of the issues new clauses. I have to admit I examined very the Minister raised was the situation that closely the difference when ruling on the Minis- would be created by a person's death. It seems ter's original proposal that I would not accept it reasonable to take this opportunity, although I as an amendment. In this, case we have already 4984 4984[COUNCIL] have a 24A in the clause. Therefore, as we have specifically authorised by this Act to a 24AB and the member only wishes to add a C do so, make any record of, or divulge and D, they can be treated as amendments or communicate that information. rather than new clauses. (2) Any person who contravenes the Hon. PETER DOWDING: Before you get to provisions of subsection (1), commits that amendment, Mr Chairman, 1 wish to move an offence. another amendment. Penalty: $2 500 or imprisonment The CHAIRMAN: I am afraid that the for six months. amendment first listed must come first. The CHAIRMAN: I believe it might be in Hon. PETER DOWDING: Hon. Phil Pendal the best interests to add all Mr Pendal's amend- has not moved his amendment. I am seeking ments together as they have been submitted to the call to move an amendment. us so I will read 24AD. The CHAIRMAN: I am afraid Mr Pendal has a prior amendment. The Minister has Hon. P. G. PENDAL: I am happy to take amended 24AC. I cannot see that his amend- that as read. ment comes before I-on. Phil Pendal's. The CHAIRMAN: The Minister for Employ- Hon. PETER DOWDING: menit and Training has proposed a further Fam on my feet. amendment to Mr Pendal's amendment, which The CHAIRMAN: I am afraid the prior indeed is an alternative amendment similar to amendment must be taken first. Amendments that in which he foreshadowed as with a new come on in the order in which they were sub- section 20A to be inserted. Members will find mitted to the Chamber. that listed on their Notice Papers. He also now Hon. P. G. PENDAL: The Minister was in- changed that to 24AC to be inserted. deed on his feet, but he rose only three minutes ago when seeking a point of order. I was on my Hon. P. G. PENDAL: 24AC comes down to feet talking to the amendment before us, so the two words, "unauthorised disclosure" on the Committee should not be under the illusion part of anyone administering the Act. There- that the Minister had the call. fore I intend to ensure that anyone who does disclose information other than in an author- The CHAIRMAN: I rule that the Minister ised way ought to be penalised for it. There is was on his feet to a point of order. nothing revolutionary about that. For the comfort of members, there is a provision in the Committee Resumed Pay-roll Tax Assessment Act about unauthor- The CHAIRMAN: Mr Pendal wishes to ised disclosure. There is a similar provision in present to the Chamber an amendment which the Parliamentary Commissioner Act, that is, has already been listed, and then we will give for the Ombudsman. There is a similar pro- the Chamber the benefit of an explanation of vision in the Financial Institutions Duty Act, the amendment foreshadowed by the Minister, and many other Statutes. That is the import of and the Chamber will decide which of the two proposed section 24AC. shall be inserted. Proposed new section 24AD is not dissimi- Hon. P. G. PENDAL: What you have said, lar. It is a flow-on to that which would require Mr Chairman, is that we are really in a situ- certain people to take an oath which would be ation of having to choose one or the other. We administered by a magistrate. That in itself is have not seen what the Minister has in mind. nothing very revolutionary. Members can refer The CHAIRMAN: I have the matter in hand. to section 8 of the Parliamentary Com- missioner Act and see that there is an obli- Hon. P. G. PENDAL: I move an amend- gation to swear an oath, although in that case it nient- is an oath before the Presiding Officers of the Page 20, after line 22-To insert the fol- Parliament. lowing- In brief, all it does is to persuade officers 24AC. (1) A person who, in the administering such an Act that they have grave course of their duties under this Act, obligations to secrecy and that any unauthor- has received any information relating ised disclosure on their part would be met with to an adopted person or the natural a severe penalty. I do not know whether it is parents, adopting parents or relatives competent for me to comment why the Com- of an adopted person, shall not, unless mittee should support my amendments. [Friday, 22 November 1985] 484985

The Minister's amendment deals with rangements or negotiations for or towards confidentiality. I commend the Government or with a view to the adoption of a child is for coming forward with an amendment to guilty of an offence against this Act. cover that which has concerned a number of Opposition members and a number of Govern- Penalty: $2 500 or imprisonment for 6 ment members as well. However, it is probably months. too little too late. I do not say that unkindly. The Minister's amendment is far broader and This is an important issue. I ask members to far looser and, in fact, permits five separate give some careful consideration to it before occasions when there could be exceptions to casting their votes. The amendment to Hon. that disclosure action. His proposed amend- Phil Pendal's amendment gives a broad and ment states- specific obligation preventing information be- ing disseminated other than in accordance with A person who, the appropriate official dissemination pro- This is the first exception- cedures provided for by the Act or the regu- except for the purposes of this Act or as lations, or with the approval of the Director may be permitted by this Act or the regu- General or the head of an adoption agency. lations or with the written approval of the That is a very specific provision and, in the Director General or the principal officer of view of the Government, it is an appropriate confidentiality provision. an approved adoption agency- So we are dealing in the Minister's amendment Mr Pendal's amendment goes much further with something that will be delegated down the than that and discriminates against public ser- line a fair bit. I strongly urge the Committee to vants. Public servants already, under section 81 agree that that watering down process in fact of the Criminal Code, are subject to undermines the very essence of what I am confidentiality provisions, the breach of which seeking to achieve with the combination of my is punishable by two years' imprisonment for two amendments, and that is to make quite the disclosure of official secrets. With my rigid provisions for the unauthorised disclos- amendment and that provision of the Criminal ure. [ urge the Committee to adopt both of my Code, public servants certainly have ample amendments and not to adopt the amendments statutory inhibitors to breaching confi- which will be moved by the Minister even dentiality. The suggestion that public servants though I acknowledge it goes some of the way ought to take an oath whereas private adoption towards what I am seeking to achieve. agency officials ought not to be required to take Hon. PETER DOWDING: I move an an oath is, I believe, a vote of no confidence in amendment to the amendment moved by Hon. the public servants who have ample reason not P. G. Pendal- to disclose the information, including a threat of two years in prison if they did. What is this To delete all words after "24AC" in the business of asking a typist in the department to proposed amendment down to and includ- take an oath, or asking public servants to ap- ing "six months" and substitute the follow- pear before a magistrate, within the meaning of ing, the Justices Act, to take an oath not to breach Confidentiality. what is regarded as essential in the Public Ser- "A person who, except for the purposes of vice and, in any event, is covered by the this Act or as may be permitted by this Act confidentiality provisions which we have had or the regulations or with the written ap- drafted and which have been on the Notice proval of the Director-General or the Paper for some time? principal officer of an approved adoption Mr Pendal's amendment discriminates agency, directly or indirectly- against public servants. It is a most extraordi- (a) makes a record of any information;or nary proposition that typists and clerks ought (b) divulges or communicates to any per- to have to swear an oath as public servants if son any information, they happen to be dealing with a particular area of responsibility. being information contained in records, books, documents or files of or in the pos- If my amendment were accepted, officers of session or under the control of the Depart- the Registrar General's Department, the Fam- ment or an approved adoption agency and ily Court, the Department for Community Ser- relating to the adoption of a child or ar- vices, and private adoption agencies would be 4986 4986COUNCIL] bound by the confidentiality provisions. I urge Hon. P. G. PENDAL: In terms of this de- members not to accept Mr Pendal's amend- bate, whether the Parliamentary Commissioner ment. is a public servant or an officer of the Parlia- My amendment is to replace Hon. Phil ment is irrelevant. What is important is that Pendal's proposed new section 24AC.' I have the Ombudsman deals with a lot of confiden- moved it in this way to give members a clear tial matters and under the Parliamentary Com- choice. Members will now have a clear choice missioner Act certain restrictions are put on whether to accept the confidentiality pro- him. visions of the Government or the additional Hon. Peter Dowding: He is not a public ser- and quite novel proposal for confidentiality vant. plus a system of oath-taking for public ser- vants. Hon. P. G. PENDAL: If that is the only argu- ment the Minister has-that is, that he is not a Hon. P. 0. PENDAL: There is nothing extra- public servant and that he does not have obli- ordinary about my amendment, as the Minister gations under the Public Service Act and the has tried to make out. If necessary, I will go Criminal Code-obviously additional safe- through it chapter and verse to indicate to the guards cannot do any more damage. Committee the other Statutes where we require Hon. Peter Dowding: You are assuming he a similar sense of responsibility from civil ser- vants. The Minister says that it is a gross reflec- takes an oath. tion on civil servants and, I say for the record, Hon. Kay Hallahan interjected. that it is not. Hon. P. G. PENDAL: I will let Hon. Kay Hon. Kay Hallahan interjected. Hallahan judge for herself. Put aside the Hon. P. G. PENDAL: When!I have finished I Ombudsman whom we have all agreed-the invite Hon. Kay Hallahan to take the floor to Minister does not appear to be listening. show me why. Mr Dowding tells the Com- Hon. Peter Dowding: I am listening. mittee that it is ridiculous that we should re- quire, for example, a typist to perform this Hon. P. G. PENDAL: Mr Chairman, that is duty. Why would that be ridiculous? It would the very criticism you made about members on be ridiculous because if a person is dealing with my side of the Chamber. highly personal information- Let us look at the Statutes that are Hon. Peter Dowding: Which they do in the administered by public servants. Clearly, the Family Court every day of the week. Minister did not hear when I referred to the Pay-roll Tax Assessment Act which is Hon. P. G. PENDAL: I did not write the administered by his frontbench colleague. All Family Law Act. the revenue Acts are administered by civil ser- Hon. Kay Hallahan: Thank God for that. vants and they have similar provisions. Mr Hon. P. G. PENDAL: The Government has Berinson would know that. They have an obli- come to this Chamber and asked for certain gation to treat with a degree of confidentiality innovations in the Adoption of Children information which comes their way. Where is Amendment Bill. the revolutionary notion about that? I ask Mrs Hallahan if she would like to comment on that. Hon. Peter Dowding: All that confidential material is there already. Hon. Peter Dowding: Do you want to include that provision in every Act? Hon. P. G. PENDAL: Why is it that in the Parliamentary Commissioner Act there are Hon. P. G. PENDAL: I would include the similar provisions? What would the Parliamen- provision in every Act where sensitive infor- tany Commissioner, who deals with such mat- mation is being dealt with. Would anyone ters- suggest that we are not dealing with sensitive information in this case? Hon. Peter Dowding: He is not a public ser- vant. Why has the Minister come in with his own amendment? He acknowledges my argument. Hon. P. G. PENDAL: No, but he is an officer We are now dealing with a question of degree. of the Parliament. The Government has acknowledged the lack of Hon. Peter Dowding: He is not a public ser- confidentiality provisions because it moved the vant and that is why the Criminal Code does amendment which is now with mine and which not cover him. is now under discussion. [Friday, 22 November 1985]198 4987

If that is not enough, I refer the Minister to a Hon. P. G. PENDAL: It would underline in very recent Statute-the Financial Institutions that person's mind the gravity of the kind of Duty Act. I remind members that that Act was work the person is involved in. brought to the House by the frontbench Minis- Hon. Peter Dowding interjected. ter who is with us today, Hon. Joe Berinson. That Act contains the tightest possible pro- Hon. P. G. PENDAL: I am answering Hon. visions to ensure secrecy on the part of those Peter Dowding's colleague. I will take questions administering the Act. If members want it one at a time. chapter and verse, it starts at page 28 of the The second thing it would do is precisely Financial Institutions Duty Act, section 8. It what we demand of the Ombudsman. I do not includes a special section on secrecy provisions know if Mr Berinson has ever had to refer any and there is nothing revolutionary about that. matters to the Ombudsman. I have, and I guess Hon. Kay Hallahan: Do they take an oath that most members in this Chamber have. I can say instead of making an affirmation? with absolute certainty that there has been no matter that I have referred to the Hon. P. G. PENDAL Not that I am aware Ombudsman on behalf of any constituent of of. For a so-called radical political party, what mine which is anywhere near as sensitive as the is the great chasm that one has to leap over to adoption issue. that one takes an oath when accept the notion We are essentially dealing with one will be dealing with sensitive information. administrat- ive matters, which is exactly the reason for the Hon. Peter Dowding: Be fair. In none of the Ombudsman. My point is that one could say Acts you have referred to, which apply to pub- that it is an overkill of the Ombudsman's situ- lic servants, is there a requirement to take an ation with the bulk of his work- oath. Do you agree9 Hon. J. M. Berinson interjected. Hon. P. G. PENDAL Yes, I do agree. None of the Statutes to which I have referred has that Hon. P. 0 . PENDAL: I will sit down when I requirement. We are dealing with the know I have some support for my argument. Ombudsman, and why would we want him to Hon. Peter Dowding: You will not achieve it take an oath? from our side. Hon. Kay Hallahan: Because he is covered by Hon. P. 0. PENDAL I know that members the Act. The Minister made that point clear. opposite are not allowed to vote except along party lines. Hon. P. G. PENDAL: Hon. Kay Hallahan misunderstood me. There are two issues at I ask the Committee not to support the Min- stake. The first, is the confidentiality pro- ister's amendment for the reasons I stated at visions-Mrs Hallahan perhaps does not want the outset. There are a great number of excep- to listen to me. It is a difficulty I have; I have tions and I outlined five of them. The Bill con- been asked a question and I am not sure that tains a very broad confidentiality provision. the answer will get through. I repeat that there Notwithstanding that, the amendment was are two matters at stake. Mrs Hallahan does brought to the Chamber upon second reflec- not understand, or she would not have asked tion, so the principle is acknowledged by the the question she did. Government. I am simply saying that we should go one step further and include a pro- The first matter relates to unauthorised dis- vision which does seriously maintain a degree closure, which is referred to in a great number of confidentiality. In association with that, it of Statutes of this Parliament. The second part requires people dealing with sensitive infor- of what l am dealing with is the requirement to mation to take an oath. I cannot see that that is take an oath. There is simply nothing revol- an onerous provision when dealing with a mat- utionary about that. ter as important as this. We acknowledge that the people who are Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF: We are dealing with dealing with the Act are dealing with sensitive two matters. The first is Mr Pendal's information. No-one has any difficulty with the confidentiality provision as opposed to that put idea that that person needs to maintain strict up by Mr Dowding. The second matter is that confidentiality. of the taking of an oath by certain persons. Mr Hon. J. Mv.Berinson: What would an oath Dowding referred to the fact that members of add that is not provided already by the liability the Public Service are being discriminated to imprisonment for six months under the Min- against, and that Mr Pendal's provision would ister's power? not cover officers of private adoption agencies. 4988 4988[COUNCIL]

I suggest that that problem could be overcome so that we can give some thought to it. Perhaps if we delete the words in proposed section we could deal with it when we resume next 24AD(I) that refer to public servants-that is, week. "The Director-General, the Registrar-General and all officers of the department and any Hon. PETER DOWDING: The Government other department of the Public Service"-and does not accept Mr Medcalf's suggestion. I in- insert, "All persons other than the vite honourable members to make a decision Registrar-General who may be required to about the clear choice before them. The carry out such duties". I would exclude the Government's view is that the confidentiality Registrar General because he comes under provisions as proposed by my amendment are another Act which lays down his duties in re- sufficient and cover both the public sector and lation to disclosure of sensitive information. I the non-public sector. Together with the other suggest that Mr Pendal and the Minister might obligations already on public servants, the consider deletion of those words in proposed confidentiality provisions I propose impose section 24AD, relating to who shall be required ample reasons for not disclosing information. to take the oath. The addition of the requirement to take an Hon. Peter Dowding: That would mean that oath or affirmation does not take the matter all public servants would still have to take the any further. The only reason for that in one Act oath. to which the honourable member has referred is that the party concerned is not a public ser- Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF: I suggest that the vant. Government departments, the Family change I propose would not discriminate be- Court, and all the agencies that exist to date, tween public servants or anyone else as such. It deal with confidential information. Why single would include them all. The Registrar General out public servants to take an oath? It would would be excluded for the simple reason that he mean that if there were a temporary typist in is covered by his own Act which requires him the department, a magistrate would have to be in certain circumstances to divulge certain in- found so that the typist could take an oath. formation. Hie ought to be excluded for that That would certainly be an administrative in- reason. convenience. There has not been sufficient evi- Hon. Peter Dowding: What about the Minis- dence put before this Committee that would ter, Mr Medcalf, and the judges? indicate a requirement for a departure from a Hon. 1. 0. MEDCALF: Judges do not per- standard provision of the Statute that there form any duties under this Act. should be confidentiality requirements and no oath. Hon. Peter Dowding: They may do. Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF: I am prepared also to I invite honourable members to choose be- exclude the Minister if it is believed that he is tween the confidentiality proposals put forward required to perform some duties. If he is so by Mr Pendal and those put forward by me. I required, I would also exclude the Minister believe that my confidentiality proposal is the from having to take the oath because he takes a only workable one because we must accept that separate oath. the Director General must have a discretion. Hon. Peter Dowding: I am told the Attorney To require the persons specified in Mr Pendal's General may also be affected. proposal to make an oath or affirmation before Hon. 1. 0. MEDCALF: I am a bit doubtful a magistrate that they will not make any record about the Attorney General. of or divulge certain information in the course of their duties would be an administrative Hon. J. M. Berinson: You ought to know. nightmare. Duties are imposed on the Registrar Hon. 1. 0. MEDCALF: Perhaps we should General of Births, Deaths and Marriages; du- give a little further consideration to some of ties arc imposed on judges under the Family these aspects. This illustrates the problem of Court Act. Those duties are not spelt out in this trying to rush everything through on one of the legislation. They must be covered by the last afternoons that we are sitting. It is not easy confidentiality provisions, but we must not in- to do so. I have always been very careful about hibit the functions of those other Acts, It would accepting last minute amendments for this very be quite wrong to insert a provision in this reason. On the other hand, I do not believe that legislation requiring that people performing is a good enough reason to reject what I think is functions under these Acts should need specific a desirable proposal. Perhaps the Minister authorisation to divulge material which may be should consider reporting progress on this Bill relevant to this legislation. [Friday, 22 November 1985] 484989

I ask the Chamber to accept the Govern- that they will not divulge a secret in any way, ment's carefully drafted confidentiality pro- and in other cases the people are not necess- vision. The importance of confidentiality is arily honest. I have yet to see a Bill that has recognised. In our view it is covered in a range been chopped around like this one, and which of places, but to start imposing this sort of eventually worked. I suggest that, if the Bill administratively-contrived restriction-that is, goes through, it will be back before Parliament by adding the words "unless specifically auth- next year for amendment. orised by this Act" to proposed section I am reminded of the way we allowed Claude 24AC-is to ignore (he functions of the Stubbs to introduce a Bill banning the cel- Registrar General under the Registration of ebration of Guy Fawkes day with fireworks and Births, Deaths and Marriages Act and the func- bonfires. We had all the goodwill in the world tions of the Family Court under the Family but, because it was a private member's Bill, it Court Act. There will be occasions on which was chopped to ribbons. It took us three years information will have to be disclosed in accord- to finally Overcome the problems caused by ance with those Acts, but for which specific that legislation after it had been amended. That authorisation under this legislation will not be is another story which I may write about one found. The confidentiality provisions of those day. other Acts will cover such situations. The confidentiality provided by my amendment It is strange to note, when listening to this would cover all those other situations. debate, that everybody's heart is in the right I urge honourable members not to support place. The sensible way to deal with this Bill would be to pick three members from each side either of the proposals put forward by and ask them to redraft the legislation. All Opposition members. members want the same thing. However, it is Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: I advise the Com- not possible to find a perfect solution for an mittee that I intend to support the Government imperfect situation. When a child is removed on this matter. from its natural mother and adopted, it is An idea seems to be developing in this surely one of the most imperfect situations. It is Chamber that, because one member happens to heartbreaking. I have experienced that situ- be handling certain matters, no other member ation in my family. It did not involve me, but a has done any work on that legislation or has female relative who was very close and dlear to been able to form an intelligent view. That is me. That kind of thing is bound to happen in not true. large families over a period of 69 years. I lived through an age in which illegitimate There is no perfect solution, but we are try- births were a shame and adoptions occurred ing to do our best. In this instance I wanted to regularly. That has now disappeared to a large say a few words to indicate that I have been degree. This Bill, like much legislation, is involved in this matter for more years than I probably arriving too late and after the prob- care to remember; I have thought about it lem has, to a large extent, disappeared. My firm deeply, as I do with all issues of this nature; I conviction is that the elderly people who may decided that I would not become involved in have committed an indiscretion should be the debate but became a little affronted when it protected, and that has been done. was suggested that I do not know much about it. I clearly indicate that I intend to vote with I have also been in situations which required the Government. tremendous discretion by people who have been recipients of delicate information. Hon. P. G. PENDAL: I wish to refer to a Strangely enough, many of those people have couple of comments made by the Minister with been in humble jobs. For example, I refer to regard to how he felt it was not appropriate to health inspectors who could have wrecked large have some form of oath. It is instructive to note manufacturing industries but, who through that the Minister's argument rested almost en- their discretion, allowed them to keep going tirely on the question of administrative incon- and working over the weekend, despite the fact venience-the inconvenience of finding a that some of the workers involved were in hos- magistrate, the inconvenience of finding a tem- pital. I have seen this discretion used in the porary typist to come to the department, and Education Department and also in other de- disruption of departmental goings-on in order partments. I do not believe that this amend- to have an oath taken. I ask the Committee for ment will make much difference to anybody whose benefit are we legislating? With all due except those who are very firmly of the resolve respect, we are not legislating for the con- 4990 4990[COUNCIL] venience of the Public Service; we are of taking an oath. If one accepts that line, there legislating for human beings caught up in this would be no reason to ask anybody to take an situation of adoption. oath. One need not be asked to take an oath, We now have a situation in which no mem- even in a court of law. ber of the Government is in charge of the Bill. I Hon. FRED McKENZIE: We are trying to will wait- arrive at a situation where everybody is happy. The CHAIRMAN: I suggest that the member We have heard the position described by Hon. should keep speaking and, who knows, some- Graham MacKinnon. He has indicated there is thing might emerge. goodwill on both sides, but there is an argu- Hon. P. G. FENDAL: Pigs might fly! I do not ment on the semantics of the clause. think it is good enough for the Minister to base Hon. P. G. Pendal: It is more than that. his argument against the requirement for an oath on whether it is convenient to the depart- Hon. FRED McKENZIE: Perhaps it is a ment. We are dealing with something far more little more, but it has been pointed out that important than that. The oath will do precisely adoption agency staff are not required to swear what it does in the case of the Ombudsman- the oath, yet we are asking public servants to precisely what an oath does anywhere. Mr do that. Surely that is discriminatory. We are Kelly asks what good will an oath do. Does that trying to avoid that situation. mean that we are now abandoning the taking of Hon. Phil Pendal indicates quite rightly that an oath in the courts because what good will it the Minister was absent from the Chamber for do? Do we not, as members of Parliament, at- a few minutes while he was speaking. I trust tend frequent naturalisation ceremonies in our that he will understand the idea is to come up electorates during which people take either an with something to accommodate both sides. oath or make an affirmation? Why do we want people to do that? If we adopted Mr Kelly's Hon. P. G. Pendal: Would you not agree that mentality, we could ask what good will the oath that is an occasion on which to report progress, do in a court. Does it mean that a person in the because as the proposer I should be party to the court will tell more of the truth because he has compromise being sought? taken an oath? We could speculate on that all Hon. FRED McKENZIE: We are all very night long. If a person is intending to tell a lie anxious to get on with the Bill. in a court, he will do so whether or not he has taken an oath. If an unscrupulous civil servant Hon. P. G. Pendal: I agree. wants to disclose something in an unauthorised Hon. FRED McKENZIE: Time is of the es- fashion, I guess he will do so regardless of sence. For that reason I shall not hold the whether he has taken an oath or whether there Chamber up any longer. I just wanted to make is a penalty for his actions. that point so that members should fully under- I regret that the Minister is not present to stand. hear those arguments. What an incredible situ- Hon. P. G. PEN DAL: May I be clear on what ation. We are dealing with a Bill, and the Min- we are voting? It seems to me that some mem- ister in charge is not in the Chamber. bers of the Opposition have already indicated Hon. A. A. Lewis: He is listening to you and that they agree with me on the one point, but he is trying to help. they agree with the Government on the other. I Hon. P. G. PENDAL: The Minister's place is understand I may well be "done", if that is a in this Chamber. Is that really asking too much parliamentary term, on the question of the of him? Indeed, that very issue was raised in oath. this Chamber several years ago by the Minister If we are voting on clause 24AC, I ask the who is now missing. Committee to support me on the question of I acknowledge that an oath will not make a confidentiality-that is, on the disclosure of person scrupulous if he is unscrupulous. I also information in an unauthorised way. That acknowledge that an oath in a court of law will would mean that when the question to include not make a person tell the truth if he is a liar. I the Minister's confidentiality clause is put, the am not sure what the taking of an oath does at motion would be to insert it. As a result, people a naturalisation ceremony, other than allow the who are of like mind with me would vote person being naturalised to swear an oath of "No". If the Noes won, that would dispose of allegiance to the Queen. I acknowledge that the Minister's clause. Then my clause 24AC people will not be made more honest by virtue would be dealt with. [Friday, 22 November 1985] 494991

The CHAIRMAN: The first vote will be to We should delete those pants of this amend- the words after "24AC". That has been moved ment which go beyond what is permitted by the by the Minister. If that is successful and all Act. I am prepared to accept those two cases, words have gone out of the window, the choice but it is going too far to bring in all these other of the Chamber is to insert words or have none possible situations. The Minister's amendment at all. If the member is successful, then Hon. 1. should be further amended by deletions of G. Medcalf has foreshadowed a further amend- those pants of it. ment. Hon. PETER DOWDING: I have already Hon. P. G. Pendal: The question you are made it clear, and I say it again, that the about to put relates to the Minister's amend- confidentiality provision will apply. The Direc- ment? tor General already has discretion in the sense that there are no prohibitions against the Di- The CHAIRMAN: No, it is whether we de- rector General's decisions under the existing lete the member's words with the object of Act. The situation is not changed. We are putting his in. Are members aware of the ques- changing it by imposing new confidentiality re- tion? quirements. We impose these new require- Amendment on the amendment (words to be ments and we should not impose them on deleted) put and passed. people whose primary responsibility is the administration of the Act or the adoption Amendment on the amendment (words to he agencies concerned which will have their own substituted) put and passed. criteria under the procedures of this Bill. IHon. 1. G. MEDCALF: I believe that the The position is clear. The Government will Minister's proposed amendment opens a much not support any change to that proposed inser- wider field than we had ever contemplated tion. during the course of this discussion. The Hon. P. G. PENDAL: I oppose and for that confidentiality provision includes five separate reason will vote against the Minister's exemptions. Exemptions to confidentiality may confidentiality clause in so far as it affects the be made in relation to this very sensitive infor- regulations. I find it an extraordinary propo- mation. sition to extend that position to the regulations. If it is for the purposes of the Act, I am We might as well throw out the whole concept prepared to go along with that. If it is permitted of confidentiality if this Parliament does not by the Act, I am prepared to go along with it. If lay down the ground rules for that it is permitted by the regulations, naturally we confidentiality. If it is to be left to the regu- have not seen them and I do not know when lation-making process, we may welt throw the they will be drawn up or what will be included whole thing out. That would be absurd because in them. even the Government acknowledged the need for the confidentiality clauses at the introduc- Fourthly, the written approval of the Direc- tion of the Bill, and indeed later. tor General is mentioned. In other words, this I have grave concerns about the use of regu- is entirely outside the provisions of the Act. lations in that way and, as the Minister has There can also be the written approval of the indicated he is not prepared to consider an principal officers of approved adoption amendment in that respect, I want it clearly agencies. We do not even know who they are. understood that, apart from the concept that We do not know who they might be, or when Hon. Ian Medcalf mentioned-the five they might be appointed, or who might be the categories I mentioned earlier-it is a principal officers, or anything else. retrograde step in trying to impose This is going too far and Ilam not prepared to confidentiality in a half-baked way. accept that amendment. It is much too wide, Hon. I. G. MEDCALF: I am sorry that the and it reaches a very sensitive area where we Minister is not prepared to concede the argu- have traditionally required confidentiality, not ment which has been put up. These exemptions only in the Registrar General's Act but in the go far beyond what one would normally accept adoption Act itself Only the Registrar General in this highly sensitive area of dealing with or a judge or registrar of the court can allow adoption files which have always been this information to be made available. We are sacrosanct in relation to the ability of any now to permit this information to be available member of the public to obtain information. It in any of these five separate situations. will only be necessary for the Director General 4992 4992COUNCIL]

or the principal officer of an adoption agency I-on. P. G. PENDAL: Being a realist, I think to say, "Yes, you can have a look at this file." this is a good provision otherwise we would not This material has always been kept very pni- have it in other Statutes, particularly in re- vale, and while I am not saying approval would lation to the Ombudsman. Whether he is a be given indiscriminately I see no reason for public servant or not is irrelevant. the Parliament to give such a power: It is an area of human activity that perhaps I am prepared to go along with the amend- requires the taking of an oath more than any ment. If the Legislative Council wishes to dis- other I can think of, and I urge the Committee agree with me, that is its business. to vote for its inclusion. I move an amend ment- I move an amendment to the Minister's To insert after line 22 the following- amendment- 24AD. (1) Before entering upon the To delete the words- exercise of any of their duties under or with the written approval of the this Act, the Director-General, the Director-General or the principal Registrar-Genera] and all officers of officer of an approved adoption the department and any other depart- agency, ment of the Public Service shall each take an oath or affirmnation to faith- fully and impartially perform those That allows the Minister or at least the Direc- tor General or anyone involved to act in ac- duties and not to make any record of, cordance with the Act, for the purposes of the or divulge or communicate, any infor- Act, or as may be directed by the Act or regu- mation relating to an adopted person lations which I am prepared to accept. The or the natural parents, adopting regulations, after all, must basically conform parents or relatives of an adopted per- with the requirements of the Act. son, received in the course of those duties, unless specifically authorised 1 personally cannot go along with the plan of by this Act to do so. it; I would regard it as a breach of faith on my (2) The oath or affirmation to be part to not oppose that part of the Minister's taken pursuant to subsection (1) may amendment. he taken before, and may be administered Or received by, a magis- I commend my amendment to the Chamber. trate within the meaning of the Jus- tices Act 1902. Further amendment on the amendment put Amendment put and negatived. and a division taken with the following result- Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF: I move an amend- ment- Ayes 16 To insert after line 22 the following sec- Hon. C.J_ Bell H-on. Neil Oliver Hon. V.1J. Ferry Hon. P. G. Pendal tion- Hon. Tom Knight Hon. L.G. Pratt 24AD. (1) A person who does any act Hon. A. A. Lewis Hon. W. N. Stretch calculated or likely to in- Hon. G. C. MacKinnon Hon. P. H. Wells Hon. G. E.Masters Hon. John Williams timidate, embarrass, Hon. 1.G. Medralf Hon. D. J. Wordsworth ridicule or harass another Hon. N. F. Moore Hon. Margaret McAleer person by virtue of that (Treller) other person being or Noes 15 having been- Hon. J. M. Berinsan Hon. Robert Hetherington (a) an adopted person; Hon. J. Mt. Brown FHon. Garry Kelly Hon. E.J. Charion Hon. Tom McNeil (b) a natural parent of an Hon. D. K. Dans Hon. Mark Nevill Hon. Peter Dowding Hon. S. M. Piantadosi adopted person; Hon. Graham Edwards Hon. Tom Stephens (c) an adopting parent of Hon. Lyla Elliott Hon. Fred McKenzie an adopted person; Hon. Kay Hallahan f(Teller) or a relative of any of the foregoing persons is guilty Amendment on the amendment thus passed. of an offence against this Amendment, as amended, put and passed. Act. [Friday, 22 November 1985] 494993

(2) For the purposes of Hon. PETER DOWDING: The Government subsection (t) "relative" does not oppose this proposal. means any of the mother, Amendment put and passed. father, brothers, sisters, spouses, defacto spouses or Clause, as amended, put and passed. children of the relevant Clauses 27 and 28 put and passed. person. Title put and passed. Penalty: $2 500 or imprison- ment for six months. Report As I mentioned the other night, legislators are Bill reported, with amendments, and the re- in a dilemma in relation to this matter. On one port adopted. hand they want to assist people who genuinely are entitled to and have a need to ascertain Third Reading their beginnings, so to speak, and locate their Hill read a third time, on motion by Hon. parentage; on the other hand they have a re- Peter Dowding (Minister for Employment and sponsibility to people who may be affected by Training), and returned to the Assembly with inquiries which are more than usually embar- amendments. rassing in some cases. There have been a num- ber of illustrations of that, and it is unnecessary ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE: for me to deal with them. SPECIAL People who are involved in adoptions, HON. D. K. DANS (South Metropolitan- whether adoptees, adopting parents, or the Leader of the House) 16.14 p.m.]:!I move- natural parents, must be protected from gossip. That the House at its rising adjourn until Gossip can be a wicked thing, and we all know Tuesday, 26 November at 11.00 a.m. that human beings are afflicted by gossip in one Question put and passed. way or another. While supporting the principle of access to information, we must bear in mind ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE: the need to protect people from undue ORDINARY harassment or embarrassment, or even ridicule which has happened in some cases in HON. D. K. DANS (South Metropolitan- the past and was totally unwarranted and un- Leader of the House) [6.15 p.m.]: I move- fair. It is a good idea that the Parliament be That the House do now adjourn. given the opportunity of vindicating this prin- ciple and providing that people affected by Legislative Assembly.- Sitting adoptions should not be unduly harassed by HON. G. E. MASTERS (West-Leader of any other person. In saying that, I am not only the Opposition) [6.15 p.m.]: Am I correct in referring to adopted persons, adopting parents, understanding that the Legislative Assembly or natural parents, but also to their relatives will be meeting at the same time? who are limited quite specifically to include a Hon. D. K. Dans: To the best of my knowl- restricted class of relatives who may be subject edge, yes. to unfortunate and unpleasant jibes, That is the reason for my amendment, and I ask the Question put and passed. Chamber to support it. House adjourned at 6.16 p.in.

(157) 4994 4994[COUNCIL]

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE (5) In his answer to one of my pre- vious questions concerning the UNION destruction of Raymond Mickelberg's fingerprints, the Fire Brigades Employees Union: Prosecution Minister categorically stated that 388. Hon. G. E. MASTERS, to the Leader of Raymond's fingerprints were de- the House representing the Premier: stroyed on I I June 1976 at police headquarters. Therefore, would Did the Premier give any assurances the Minister please explain why to the Secretary of the WA Fire Brig- the other duplicate set of ades Employees Union that he would Raymond MickeLberg's finger- not seek prosecution of the union prints held by the Central Finger- when it was in breach of section 96F print Bureau, were not destroyed? of the Industrial Arbitration Act in March 1983? (6) Is it standard procedure when fingerprints are destroyed under Hon. D. K. DANS replied: the terms of section 5OAA(2) of The Premier advises he does not recall the WA Police Act, for the WA giving any assurance on the matter, police not to also ensure that but if the member has any concerns duplicate sets of the same finger- and raises them with the Premier, he prints held by the Central Finger- will consider having them print Bureau and other State investigated. police forces are destroyed also? (7) Would the Minister please ex- plain in detail the procedure fol- 411. Postponed. lowed by the WA police on re- ceipt of a request for the destruc- tion of fingerprints where those CRIME: MICKELBERO CASE fingerprints relate to an arrest Fingerprints:Destruction made by the Australian Federal 426. Hon. P. H. LOCKYER, to the Attorney police. General representing the Minister for Hon. J. M. BERINSON replied: Police and Emergency Services: (1) and (2) There is no record of The Minister has said that Raymond Raymond Mickelberg requesting, in MickeLberg requested that his finger- writing, the destruction of his finger- prints be destroyed and that the de- prints. struction of the fingerprints took place (3) Yes. at police headquarters on I I June A photostat copy is supplied. 1976. (4) (5) State records do not indicate that the (1) Was the request for destruction central bureau had a duplicate set of made in writing by Raymond prints. Mickelberg?. It must be appreciated that two (2) If so, would the Minister please systems operate- provide me with a copy of the re- quest? (a) Where State police arrest and charge a person, two sets of (3) With reference to the destruction fingerprints are obtained. One set of Raymond Mickelberg's finger- of these may be transmitted to the prints, did the police officer who central bureau. conducted the destruction com- (b) Where Federal police are plete any documentation to con- involved, they obtain three sets of firm that destruction had taken fingerprints, of which State police place? retain one set. The other two are (4) If documentation was completed retained and/or dispersed through would the Minister please provide the Federal police system. No me with a copy of the documen- record of their dispersal is kept by tation? the State. (Friday, 22 November 1985] 494995

(6) In the event of fingerprints being sup- (2) These are the notifiable disease fig- plied to the central bureau by State ures- police and a subsequent acquittal or 1975 1984 dismissal of the relevant charge, fol- (a) 1 210 804-30 and under lowing an application under the pro- visions of section 50AA of the Police (b) 742 472-30 and under Act the fingerprints would be de- (c) 1 698 1 170 strayed by State police and the central (d) 950 578 bureau advised to destroy its copies as well. 1985 figures will be available in mid-January. When the State police are not the HEALTH: MEDICAL PRACTITIONERS party lodging the duplicate set of Advertising:-Restrictions fingerprints with the central bureau, there is no obligation on the State to 438. Hon. P. H. WELLS, to the Leader of the provide for the destruction. House representing the Minister for Health: (7) Commonwealth legislation does not (1) What legislative restrictions prevent a provide for the destruction of finger- doctor from advertising? prints upon acquittal or dismissal of (2) Is the Government considering bring- charges. In fairness to accused per- ing forward legislation to allow doc- sons, although such is now found to be tors to advertise in relation to their- incorrect, their fingerprints were destroyed under provisions of section (a) location; 5OAA of the Police Act. In future no (b) qualifications; further fingerprints obtained in re- (c) consultations; lation to Commonwealth offences will be destroyed by the State police. Any (d) after-hours arrangements; applications for destruction will now (e) interpreter service; and be directed to the appropriate Com- (0) fees? monwealth authority. Hon. D. K. DANS replied: (1) There are nio legislative restrictions at present, but the Medical Board has discretionary powers to determine HEALTH whether any such advertising consti- Sexually Transmitted Diseases: Increase tutes professional misconduct. (2) Recent amendments to the Medical 437. Hon. P. H. WELLS, to the Leader of the Act make provision for regulations to House representing the Minister for control advertising. Health: (1) Has the Department of Health any 439. Postponed. evidence to suggest that there is an increase in the numbers of young CATERING SERVICES people catching sexually transmitted Country Functions diseases? 440. Hon. W. N. STRETCH, to the Leader of (2) Will the Minister provide figures of the House representing the Minister for the number of reported cases of Health: sexually transmitted diseases in the (1) Is the Health Department considering following categories- implementing stricter regulations re- (a) young people-male; garding catering at country functions such as agricultural shows, ram sales, (b) young people-female; clearing sales, etc., run by local ser- (c) total-male; and vice-i.e. non-professional--organis- (d) total-female. ations? (2) If "Yes", has the Country Women's Hon. D. K. DANS replied: Association of WA (Inc) or other such (1) No. bodies been consulted? 4996 4996[COUNCI L]

(3) Will the Minister outline reasons for Hon. J. M. BERINSON replied: any changes, and estimate a date for I have received no report to that ef- the introduction of such changes? fect. If the member cares to put the Hon. D. K. DANS replied: question on notice, I will consult with (1) No. the department. (2) and (3) Not applicable. PRISONERS 441 and 442. Postponed. Karnet: Unauthorised Leave 368. Hon. P. G. PENDAL, to the Minister for HEALTH Prisons: Divers: Recompression Chamber (1) What progress, if any, has been made 443. Hon. A. A. LEWIS, to the Leader of the in regard to the allegations which I House representing the Minister for understand were made during a tele- Health: vision news programme earlier this week that prisoners are being allowed Further to the answer to question 389, unauthorised leave from Karnet? of Wednesday, 20 November 1985, why is another recompression (2) Is there any substance to allegations chamber needed in WA? that money is changing hands to ar- Hon. D. K. BANS replied: range these unauthorised departures, The need for another recompression as was alluded to during that inter- chamber has not been established. view? While the facility at Garden Island is Hon. J. M_ BERINSON replied: available to manage civilian as well as naval diving related injury, and access (1) and (2) The answer to the second part to the chamber is only by grace and of the question will of course depend favour, proposals have been put that on the results of the investigation still suggest there may be a need to estab- proceeding, which is being conducted lish a facility to treat other non-diving by the Prisons Department and by related illnesses in a chamber. This ex- members of the Police Force. tra need for hyperbaric facilities has not been fully evaluated. PRISONERS Karnet: Unauthorised Leave QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE 369. Hon. P. G. PENDAL, to the Minister for Prisons: PRISON OFFICERS Is the Minister prepared to disclose to the House at this stage the alleged Remand Centre:-Firearms numbers of persons involved in the 367. Hon. P. G. PENDAL, to the Minister for Kamnet unauthorised departures? Prisons: Hon. 3. M. BERINSON replied: Is it correct that the Government is considering withdrawing firearms I regard it as inappropriate to make from prison officers who work in the any comment at all on these investi- remand centre at Canning Vale? gations until they are completed.