2600 2600ASSEM BLYI

seek to be recognised from the seat of the Min- £[egwslte Assemblu ister for Health, and to have an officer scaled Wednesday, 17 June 1987 next to me. Leave granted.

THE SPEAKER (Mr Barnett) took the Chair Debate Resumed at 2.1 5 pm. and read prayers. MR MacKINNON (Murdoch-Leader of the Opposition) [2. 18 pmn]: This Bill is allegedly DOG AMENDMENT BILL designed to stamp out stamp duty avoidance Objections:- Petition measures. The Bill does that in part. However, I am not sure that it does it in other parts, and I MR MacKINNON (Murdoch-Leader of will explain why in a moment. The Opposition the Opposition) (2. 16 pm]: I have a petition to supports the section of the Bill that refers to present to the Parliament in the following avoidance. However, there are other sections of terms- the legislation about which we have concern. To: The first concern must be the fact that this is The H-onourable the Speaker and Members a very complex piece of legislation, as admitted of the Legislative Assembly of the Parlia- by the Minister himself a moment ago. but it ment of Western Australia in Parliament was not circulated amongst the professions or assembled. the sections of industry it will affect until it was We. the undersigned request that the cur- presented to this Parliament. In other words. rent Bill to amend the Dog Act be sus- the people who will be affected-lawyers, ac- pended. pending a complete overhaul. countants, and commerce generally-did not Futhermore. we request that the matter of have any notice of the legislation until it was licensing people rather than dogs be introduced into the Parliament, and then they introduced and a suitable Dog Act be were consulted by the Opposition, not by the compiled incorporating acceptable regu- Government. I do not think that is very good in lations which do not contravene one's terms of any legislation, but more particularly basic Civil Liberties. legislation that, firstly, is designed to stamp out so-called avoidance and, secondly, is complex Your petitioners therefore humbly pray and could have a significant impact on com- that you will give this matter earnest con- mercial transactions within the community. sideration and your petitioners. as in duty Therefore the Opposition objects very bound, will every pray. strongly to the fact that the Government has The petition bears 978 signatures. and it con- introduced this legislation at a late stage of this forms to the Standing Orders of the Legislative part of the session-, and, More importantly, that Assembly. it introduced the legislation without any con- The SPEAKER:. I direct that the petition be sultation whatsoever with the private sector, to brought to the Table of the House. my knowledgc. I say that having consulted the Law Society of Western Australia. the (See petition No 42.) Australian Society of Accountants, the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Australia, the LEAVE OF ABSENCE Western Australian Chamber of Commerce On motion by Mrs Buchanan, leave of ab- and Industry, the Confederation of Western sence for f ive weeks was granted to the member Australian Industry. and the Real Estate Insti- for Collie (Mr Tom Jones) and the member for tute of Western Australia. Not one of those Wclshpoot (Mr Thomas) on the ground of ur- bodies could indicate to me that it had pre- gent public business. vious knowledge of this legislation. The second point is that this, of course. STAMP AMENDMENT BILL places the Opposition in an extremely difficult Second Reading position. The Minister is a lawyer. I do not happen to be a lawyer and I do not have any Debate resumed from I I June. lawyers on my staff, nor any Crown Law De- partment officers. While the Government Point ofOrder offered us a briefing on the Bill, ii is difficult to Mr PETER DOWDING: Mr Speaker, in get a briefing until someone from outside who view of the technical nature of this Bill, I would understands the legislation gives one an mndi- [Wednesday. 17 June 1987]160 2601 cation of the areas to which one should pay As though the current Government had not attention. For example, the Law Society was involved itself in increasing the incidence of sent a copy of this Bill the day after it was stamp duties as it affects all individuals in our introduced into this House, and I have received community! Bearing those statements in mind, its advice today-in fact, as I walked into the it is worth reminding ourselves of what the Parliament. So again, given that the announce- Treasurer had to say when he introduced his ment in relation to this legislation was made on first Budget into this Parliament in 1983. Again 13 January. I find it extremely difficult to I quote the Treasurer's exact words- understand why we are now dealing with such a complex matter in such a rushed and unnecess- The rates of stamp duty in Western ary way. I will point out the implications of Australia are generally significantly lower that in a moment. than those applying in the other States. It is proposed to increase a number of these We are concerned because we believe the rates to bring them more into line with Government should, even at this late stage, de- those applying elsewhere in Australia. lay the legislation until tomorrow or Friday-I assume we will sit on Friday-so that people He then went on to outline a couple of areas within the community who have a real interest where the rates were increased. For example, in in this legislation can have a further look at it. that budget, stamp duty on mortgages and on In fact, the Law Society has asked us to make other fixed-term securities increased from 15 such a request to the Minister. per cent on $ 100 to 25 per cent on $100-a 67 Why do people now want to avoid stamp per cent increase. Clearly that 67 per cent had duty? Why is there a greater preponderance of nothing to do with the level of economic activ- avoidance today than occurred a few years ago? ity; it had everything to do with the activities of Is it because people are more dishonest today the Treasurer in his increasing those charges. In than they were 10 or 20 years ago? I do not that same Budget the Treasurer also increased think so. Is it because they employ sharper or the rate of stamp duty on motor vehicle regis- more intelligent lawyers? I do not think so.' I trations. The rate current at that time was think the reason is that stamp duty rates now $1.50 per $100 and it was increased to $3 per are at a level which encourages avoidance. As $ 100. So in his very first Budget, motor vehicle members will know, it is the same with income It.cence registration and transfer fees were Lax. The only reason for the explosion i n in- increased by 100 per cent, and stamp duty on come tax avoidance dating back about 10 or 12 mortgages by 67 per cent. Therefore the years-and the Minister has a fairly intimate Treasurer himself, by his actions, has knowledge of those procedures-was that there contributed quite significantly to the incentives was a high incidence of income tax. That sort that have been given to people within the com- of creative accounting arrangement is still munity to engage in tax avoidance practices. prevalent in our society today, and that is why Before the Minister or anybody else in this the Federal Income Tax Assessment Act is House misquotes me, I hasten to add that I do amended regularly, and why we are seeing the not agree with those avoidance activities. All I Stamp Act in this State being amended with much greater regularity than has been the case am saying is that the present Government, by its actions, has provided a much greater incen- in the past. tive for people to undertake those activities. When looking at the incidence of stamp duty it is worth reminding ourselves of the Govern- A large part of this Bill has to do with con- ment's performance in that regard, and of the veyancing, and conveyancing fees were Treasurer's comments only a fewdays ago, on increased by an average across the board of 25 19 May. When talking about taxation and per cent at the same time; that is, in the stamp duty he said that there is currently- Treasurer's first Budget. So the incentive for people to engage and involve themselves in .a boom in the housing industry- avoidance of stamp duty has increased quite then there is naturally a massive increase significantly since this Government came to in revenue collected fronrfstamp duty. power. The Treasurer then went on to say- I turn now to the Bill itself. Specifically I However, that does not indicate that would like the Minister to address himself to a there is any increase in the rate of stamp few questions in his response to my contri- duty levied on individuals. bution. 2602 2602[ASSEMBLY]

Firstly, the Minister for Budget Manage- avoidance measure the Government has not ment's statement was issued on 13 January had the time or the decency to give it the pri- 1987. Within that statement the Minister said ority it deserves. that the new provisions would apply to all transactions from that day. Why is it then that The second question is: Why the delay? Why the Bill indicates that restrospectivity will ap- are we now debating, in the dying days of Par- ply from 19 January? The Minister's statement Sia me nt, such an i mporta nt piece of legislat ion? was issued on 13 January and it was clearly Mr Speaker, Lest you and other members think indicated that the provision would apply from that I am expressing only my concerns, I that date, yet the retrospeclivity dates from 19 outline to the House some comments made by January. the Law Reform Society when it wrote to the Minister for Budget Management on 13 I think the Minister needs to explain to the February in respect of this very matter. The House why this discrepancy exists, given that letter deals with the need for the legislation to there was six days' leeway when significant be brought forward quickly and said in effect transactions could have taken place. This is a that the difficulties, uncertainties and the fre- very important question. If the Minister indi- quency with which the changes will occur cates that he does not have an answer at his meant that it was obviously very important fingertips, I think it is his responsibility to ob- that the relevant legislation be introduced as tain one, given that his second weading speech soon as possible, especially as the ordinary par- indicates it is an avoidance practice that could ticipants in business activities, and it seems the cost the State 16 million this year. in fact Stamp Office, are ignorant of the law which transactions within that six-day period could will govern the transactions which they are have cost this State millions of dollars. Why presently undertaking. was the statement dated 13 January yet the retrospectivity applies from 19 January? The Law Reform Society is actually saying that the Minister had made an announcement. The second question relates to my earlier Business had to use those two pages of docu- remarks. Given that it is an avoidance practice ments to determine its attitude to complex ac- and that the Minister on 13 January said that tions. That was the only guide business had; the the legislation would be introduced in the next stamp office could not provide assistance be- session of Parliament, why is it that we have cause it did not know what the Minister had to wait until the dying days of Parliament intended to do. Hence, the Law Reform Society to have the legislation introduced into Parlia- was saying to the Minister, -It is your responsi- ment? Why was it not introduced at the end of bility in this type of legislation to ensure that March or very soon after the House resumed the details are known as quickly as possible." sitting? Nobody likes retrospectivity. but in The Minister has a grave responsibility to indi- terms of overcoming tax avoidance it is an ac- cate to the Parliament why it was not possible cepted practice, I believe, to do as the Minister to introduce this legislation prior to this time. has done-, that is, to make an announcement and then legislate. If one is going to do that, The third question relates to a matter 1 spoke however, there are several other principles that of at the outset of my contribution. Why was must be followed. The first of these is that the there no consultation with any sector of the legislation must be introduced at the earliest business community? I have indicated already possible date, and the best date would have that the people whom we have contacted are been straight after Parliament reconvened at most interested in this legislation; all of them the end of March. want to provide some comment on it; but as the Minister'- well knows, the Western For the Minister to give as an excuse that the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Indus- Government did not have time to draft the try, for example. is made up of people who are legislation or did not have sufficient in business. The chamber of commerce has a drafispeople will not wash. The Government legislative committee that looks at this type of had plenty of time to employ Canis Bailey and issue. That takes time. The second reading to establish Price Check;, the Minister for Edu- speech of this legislation was given on I I June cation had sufficient time to place advertise- and we have had from that time to today, less ments in newspapers extolling the virtues of the than a week to assess it. I do not think that is Ministry of Education; and there was plenty of fair or reasonable, certainly for the Opposition time to draft a Bill to legal ise homosexuality in but, more importantly, for the people in the this State; yet it seems on a very important community upon whom the legislation will im- [Wednesday, 17 June 1987]160 2603 pact. The Minister should address the question In other words, one is innocent until proved of why there was no consultation whatsoever guilty. The section at present says this- with industry. (1) All the facts and circumstances affect- ing the liability of any instrument The fourth question relates to the legislation to itself. Why has it not been possible for the duty, or the amount of the duty with Government to give any further details to in- which any instrument is chargeable, dustry other than those contained in the two- are to be fully and truly set forth in the page Treasury statement here? Lest members instrument; and every person who, with intent to defraud the Crown- think that is a criticism that I level unfairly. I refer again to the letter from the Law Reform (a) executes any instrument in which Society to the Minister for Budget Manage- all the said facts and circum- ment, dated 12 February. It said in effect that a stances are not fully and truly set discussion with senior offices at the Stamp forth; or Office on 2 February revealed that at that stage they had no idea what the investing practice (b) being employed or concerned in would be where a share transfer on a or about the preparation of any company's only fixed property was presented instrument, neglects or omits fully today with, for example, settlement due in a and truly to set forth therein all week's time. In the society's view this con- the said facts and circumstances, fusion will necessarily be required to be commits an offence against this Act. resolved by applying the law as it is currently enacted, but this highlights the quite unsatis- If a person has intent to defraud and goes about factory situation that has been created. that procedure and is found out, he is guilty. Fair enough, but it is up to the State to prove I refer again to that essential paint because that he is guilty. Mr Deputy Speaker, if you go there has been no further consultation with the out tomorrow and are charged with robbing a commercial sector, and the Minister needs to bank-I know you would not do that; or per- explain why no further statement has been haps you would as you have some knowledge of made to industry about this matter- banks-and are caught in the act, it is only then alleged that you committed tlhe act. Until Mr Peter Dowding: You are not suggesting such time as you are proven guilty you are that we postpone this Bill until a later stage? assumed by the State to be innocent. The Government wants to change that basic prin- Mr MacKINNON: Yes, Ilam. ciple, as it has sought to do many times in this House. It tried to do it last year with respect to Mr Peter Dowding: You are suggesting that the State Energy Commission legislation. this confusion should continue? The Government now wants to change the Bill to read- Mr MacKINNON: No. I suggest that the (la) For the purposes of subsection (1) Government should postpone the Bill until the suppression from an instrument of any tomorrow Or the following day. I think that would give people in the commercial sector at fact or circumstances referred to in least another day to study this legislation. They subsection (1) or the inclusion therein of would then have had six days from the date the any matter that is known to be false in a material particular is prima evidence Opposition provided them with a copy of the facie Bill, not the Government, and to make some of intent to defraud the Crown. comments thereon. If the Minister is dinkumn That is clearly assuming guilt. Lest the Minister about his relationship with the business com- think the Opposition is the only body with this munity, and if he really wants to enact legis- point of view I will read to the Parliament for lation that is fair and equitable for all sides of the sake of accuracy the point of view of a the equation, he should agree to such a request. leading barrister in this town who had this to say about this proposed section- One clause of the legislation causes the Oppo- Mr Peter Dowding: Who is sition concern. It relates to the onus of .proof in this from? these matters. Section 26(l) is a normal sort of Mr MacKINNON: A leading barrister. The provision, which one would expect to apply Minister knows him, but I will not refer to him under the judicial system of this State. by name because I have not sought his per- 2604 2604(ASSEMBLY]

mission to use his name. I will mention his Mr MacKINNON: It may be, but!I want the name privately to the Minister; I am happy t0 Minister to have the opportunity to answer it do that. now. I want to make sure it is on the record so Mr Peter Dowding: My understanding is that the Minister has time to hear the points of view Darryl Williams QC has approved in dis- we have raised and, I hope, consider our re- cussions the wording of this clause. quest for the Bill to be delayed and debated tomorrow or Friday. if he is going to agree with Mr MacKIN NON: It is not Darryl Williams, that course of action it is important that he and he may well have approved of the wording. knows our views on this clause. If he is not I am saying I do not approve, nor does this going to delay the matter it is worth his know- particular barrister for the reasons I ant about ing what are our concerns. The barrister's letter to outline. It seems from the Minister's attitude goes on as follows- he is prepared to change the law to one where guilt is assumed rather than having to be In my view, proof that there is an inten- proved. If he is to change that basic principle tion to defraud should be the onus borne he must answer the point raised here by the by the Crown. barrister, whose views I reflect and agree with, I agree. To continue- and convince me that it is fair enough to pre- sume guilt in the Stamp Act although that is I am aware that similar provisions have been introduced in recent times in other not so under the criminal law. Is it not just as legislation,... difficult to get proof in criminal cases as in commercial law? The member for Mt Lawley I have already referred to that. The barrister has interjected to indicate that it is for the con- goes on to say- venience of the department, and I think he is ..but that does not make the change in dead right. basic approach to criminal law any more It is the easy way out, and it is not the route palatable. we will choose to take either in Opposition or It is a contamination of basic principles in Government as we have constantly said underlying the freedom and liberty of a when clauses like this have been introduced in person. I ind it abhorrent that a person is Parliament in relation to matters such as the presumed guilty unless he can prove him- SEC_ self innocent. This leading barrister, who is experienced in I do, too. To continue- commercial law, had this to say- This approach represents a breakdown I am not sure how far "suppression" in the separation of powers between the goes. Does it merely mean -omission"? legi slatu re, Ithe execut ive and the j ud iciary. Again the Minister has a responsibility to indi- Because the Government has the numbers, cate what suppression means in this clause. I the Public Service and the Government believe it will be open to differences of in- can get the Bill through parliament. How- terpretation, and we will have just as many ever, importantly that proposed law takes difficulties with this clause as already exist with away from the judicial system the normal intent to defraud in the present section. The requirement that a person is innocent until barrister goes on to say- he is proven guilty. In effect, the executive is imposing upon the judicial system a fea- The danger in the new provision is that ture which will take away a protection it reverses the onus of proof which is which should be available to a citizen, usually applicable in a criminal matter. namely the presumption of innocence in- Here it could be the case that because a stead of a presumption of guilt unless he fact or circumstance affecting liability to can prove otherwise. The will of the execu- duty has not been included in the instru- tive is foisted upon the judicial system. ment, the person is deemed to have intended to defraud the Crown unless he In my opinion it could quite easily be can prove otherwise. the case that a circumstance affecting the amount of duty might not be fully set out One might forget to put something in, and as a in an instrument without it being the case consequence one's guilt is presumed. that a person has an intention to defraud Mr Peter Dowding- Is this not detail to be the crown by virtue of the failure to do so. debated in Committee? The new provision is a matter of overkill . [Wednesday, 17 June 1987] 202605

Again I agree entirely with those remarks. So I Mr Peter Dowding: From whom in the Law indicate now to the Minister that when we deal Society? with clause 8, which amends section 26. 1 in- tend to move an amendment to delete the Mr MacKINNON: I have not had the time to clause so that the existing section of the Act consult with my research officer but I can find remains as it is, and it will be up to the Crown out the name of the person concerned. My re- to prove guilt-guilt will not be assumed. search officer did mention the person's name to Mr Peter Dowding: The proposed section re- me, but I cannot recall it. quires the proof of guilt. It merely says you do not have to prove the reason for the sup- The facts are that I received from the Law pression of particular material. Society between 12.40 pm and 2.00 pm today Mr MacKINNON: Exactly! The Crown does a document which I will read to the House so not have to prove it. I think the Crown should that I can digest it and the Minister can under- have to prove it. stand the society's point of view. With respect to the legislation the society's view is that the Mr Peter Dowding: You have to prove guilt. Bill should be delayed. It said- but you do not have to prove the motive, if you like-the intent behind the suppression-be- cause that is a matter within the knowledge of The Bill contains 26 pages of detailed the person concerned. provisions regarding stamp duty on change of control of certain land owning corpor- Mr MacKINNON: The Minister should have ations (whether incorporated in Western learned at law school that this is a fundamental Australia or elsewhere). The legislation is principle of law, is it not? extremely complex and not capable of be- Mr Peter Dowding: No, it is not. ing readily understood on the first reading. Mr MacKINNON: Then how is it that in criminal law we do not presume guilt? That comment comes from a group that is not unskilled in, the area of law. The Law Society is Mr Peter Dowding: This clause does nol pre- of the opinion that a person cannot, from the sumneguilt. first reading of the legislation, fully understand Mr MacKINNON: I quoted the words of an it. I am quite confident that the Minister would eminent banrister in this city who disagreed agree with that. The Law Society continues- with the Minister's point of view. In fact, the banister's point of view is a proper one to put It is clear, however, that the legislation is forward. It is a point of view that the Oppo- extremely broad ranging and will require sition has expressed not only in relation to this detailed examination by legal practitioners clause, but also in relation to the State Energy well versed in revenue legislation before its Commission Act. Last year. an amendment to effect can be properly appreciated. It is that Act was presented to this House wherein if clear that the legislation has a far broader the commission found that there had been any operation than was foreshadowed in the tampering with a meter by the occupier or Honourable Minister's statement, and will owner of the premises he was presumed to be affect a range of transactions which on no guilty unless he could prove otherwise. Exactly interpretation of the media statement the same principle applies to this legislation. would have been caught. The Opposition will not have a part in such an amendment. Last year I argued with the Minis- The Law Society is stating that, first, this Bill is ter for Minerals and Energy about the amend- a complex piece of legislation he is not a lawyer, even for a lawyer ment to that Bill. Although to understand. Secondly, it believes that it will far more basic commonsense than the he has take detailed examination by skilled legal prac- Minister who is assisting the Treasurer in hand- titioners before the society can understand the ling this Bill. However, he argued the same full ramifications of the legislation. Therefore, point of view as the Minister for Labour, Pro- the Law Society needs more time to examine ductivity and Employment, but without any the legislation and I made that request earlier. force in his argument. Thirdly, the society believes that the legislation I turn now to the advice I received from the has much broader implications than the Minis- Law Society of Western Australia only mo- ter indicated previously in both his second ments before I came into the Parliament today. reading speech and in his media statement. 2606 2606ASSEMBLY]

The Law Society goes on to refer to a matter The Law Society has not made any reference to which I will address during the Committee the clause dealing with retrospectivity. I am not stage. To allow the Minister to have the benefit sure of the exact clause, but I will refer to it of the Law Society's comments prior to the during the Committee stage. Committee stage, I will read what it said- The final comment of the Law Society is as follows- The legislative amendments relating to transfers of interests in property It is believed that having regard to the companies has retrospective operation to foregoing, a period of consultation with 19 January 1987. Persons to whom the interested groups is required before the new provisions apply have 3 months from Bill is considered further by Parliament. the commencement of the new sections to That comment ends where I began, I find it lodge statements in accordance with the difficult to understand the reason the Govern- provisions thereof notwithstanding that ment made a statement on 13 January about a stamp duly may already have been paid in complex piece of legislation and then in the relation to the transaction in accordance dying days of this part of the session, it has with the existing provisions of the Act. introduced what is, in the words of the Law Society, a complex piece of legislation that is What the Law Society has stated is that the difficult to understand. It expects the Oppo- three-month limit is extremely oncrous, given sition to deal with the legislation in less than a the complexity of the legislation and the week without having had sufficient time to necessity for legal practitioners and others who consult properly with those sections of the are not skilled in the law to determine whether community which will be affected by it. they are caught by the legislation. I will listen with interest to the Minister's response and will have more to say about the As the Minister is aware, the Law Society legislation during the Committee stage of the had nothing more to go on. apart from his Bill. Press statement, until the legislation was MR TRENORDEN (Avon) 12.59 pm]: The introduced into this House. It now finds, National Party has had a good look at the legis- having studied the legislation, that even though lation in the time available to it. It has it was previously exempt from this provision, observed, from briefings by an officer from the under this legislation it will have three months department, that there are loopholes in the to comply with it. It is of the opinion that it existing legislation and it is important to rectify should have more than a three-month period. the situation because the revenue loss is con- The Law Society continues- siderable. The proposed amendments to the pro- The introduction of a 40-page amendment visions regarding duty on loan securities Bill into this Parliament during the last days of are unworkable and constitute no more this part of the session has brought pain to than a bald attempt by the Government to members of the National Party. It is a practice deal with what the Commissioner of State that has occurred constantly this week. The Taxation regards as improper transaction Government Employees Superannuation Bill is structuring. The proposed amendments to another Bill which was introduced into this the provisions do not effect the object that House and members were given little time to has been sought, and contain legal and consider it. It is a source of irritation to mem- practical difficulties; which would be ap- bers of the National Party. We spent hours de- parent to practitioners who practice exten- bating less important Bills earlier in the sively in the securities area. The amend- session. Members who have been in this place ments take no account of the practice of for a long time tell me that that is how the the various Commissioners of State Tax- legislative programme usually works, It is no ation in other States and Territories of wonder that shoddy legislation passes through Australia and yet impose penalties if, this place. within a short period of time, instruments Amendments to the Stamp Act have oc- which have stamp duty consequences curred since 1921 and the National Party be- under the legislation of States other than lieves it is time there was a complete overhaul Western Australia are not stamped with of the Act. If one were to compare this Bill with what the parties believe is the correct duty the Income Tax Assessment Act he would see under the laws of those respective States. that there have been amendments and amend- [Wednesday, 17 June 1987]160 2607 ments to the amendments. Even though avoid- MR LEWIS (East Melville) [3.04 pm]: I re- ance is occurring the National Party believes it iterate my leader's comments to the effect that is time that she Stamp Act was overhauled we in no way support the evasion of stamp duty from stani to finish. tax by legal means. We support the intent of the With this Bill being introduced in the last Bill. few days of this session, how do we know that One of the fundamental points I have diffi- no further loopholes will appear? A department culty with is supporting any retrospectivity. has looked at it for a considerable time, but Notwithstanding that this legislation is ex- nearly every other piece of legislation of this tremely complex-even the Minister must ac- type has several loopholes. We would have cept that because he needs his adviser with liked the chance for the people to whom we him-i suggest this legislation is typical Sir sent the Dill to comment on it. It was sent to a Humphrey legislation. It has been put together number of sizeable organisations which have by the Public S.ervice to close up loopholes, and been unable to get back to us due to the time I challenge any member of this Parliament, factor. even the Minister concerned, to say that he has minutely analysed, section by section, what ef- We are appreciative of the briefing given by fect it will have. Legislation like this probably the people involved, It was an excellent one, has more effect on the community than any and went into considerable depth and detail. other legislation, yet it is probably the least The people were helpful. It happened late at carefully examined by this Parliament. night, and we appreciate the dedication of the people involved. In support of what the member for Avon has said, the time has come for a responsible Now that the Bill is before the House, we do Government to completely review the Stamp not know whether it will catch people it was not Act as it exists with the aim of simplifying it. It intended for. Many small businesses and has become extremely complex and a burden farmers operate trusts and companies which on small business-in fact on all business. could feasibly be caught. I am not saying they Because of the pressures and perceived needs will be, because I listened to the briefing with a of the community today, Governments of this great deal of interest and I could personally see country are taxing to the extreme. Our tax laws no area where that could happen. But I am not have become avaricious in their demands for a solicitor or a lawyer. My ability to read legis- more and more tax. We are for ever looking at lation is not sufficient to say that there will be ways to shore up loopholes and define ways to no loopholes. obtain more tax. It would be better if all the The Federal Labor Government dropped existing legislation were put aside. Simplicity upon this country the capital gains tax, and should prevail, or he made to prevail, and the ramnifications of that tax are still appearing. All tax laws of this country, both Federal and sorts of people are being caught by this tax, and State, made simple so that ordinary people can we were told at the time that this could not understand them. possibly happen. In scores of instances people The reason we have complex laws is because are being caught unintentionally. The scope of they are for ever being amended. These this Bill is not as broad as the capital gains tax, complex laws impact very severely on many but we must register our concern. people. The Minister may shake his head. We have expressed concern about the Mr Peter Dowding: That completely ignores retrospectivity of this Bill, not so much in the what this legislation is about. case of this Bill, because we believe fair notice Mr LEWIS: I am talking about my philo- was given, but we are concerned about the fu- sophical attitude. ture. if it becomes a consistent practice of the Government to make legislation retrospective, Mr Peter Dowding: This legislation is in re- we must be absolutely sure that the timing is sponse to people who have spent hundreds of considered very carefully. We do not want a thousands of dollars designing mechanisms for future Government. no matter what its colour, avoiding the simple law. to say to people that it will backdate legislation Mr LEWIS: I can accept that, but if the Bill indiscriminately. We are prepared to live with were simple so that people could understand it, this as long as it is clearly signposted. But we and all and sundry knew the ground rules, the put out a warning to this and other Govern- law of the land would not have to be tied up ments in the future: We will be watching that with all that gobbledegook which no-one can point very closely. understand. 2608 2608[ASSEM BLYJ

Mr Peter Dowding: That is infantile. Mr Peter Dowding: Which elements of the Mr LEWIS: It may be infantile to the Minis- retrospectivity do you say would put a person ter's mind but it is not to mine. I know that in a situation where, having carefully read the people in society have had enough of these Attorney's statement in January and now complex laws which no-one understands. having applied that, he finds he is still caught? Mr Peter Dowding: That is what I meant. Mr LEWIS: I categorically say to the Minis- ter that I cannot say. I have legal advice from Mr LEWIS: It costs an arm and a leg to get eminent people that says it does catch people. I advice. When I First started work I would do am the first to admit that I am not a full bottle my tax return in about a quarter of an hour. It on this legislation, and I ask the Minister consisted of two sheets of paper and a booklet whether he is. Can he spout it chapter and with one sheet of directions on how to do it. verse and understand completely what this Today the tax schedule comprises eight pages legislation does? He should be honest. printed on both sides, with supporting legis- lation and supponting books which go on for Mr Peter Dowding: That will be for you to hundreds of pages. judge. Tax law in this country has become so Mr LEWIS: Obviously the Minister cannot; complex that we arc in danger of becoming like it is complex and no-one would deny that. But the United States of America, where every the Minister should not try to embarrass me single person in the community must have an and say that I do not know what I am talking attorney and an accountant, or otherwise suffer about. the penalty of the law:, and the law as proposed in this legislation says that a person is guilty Mr Peter Dowding: I asked you because you until he is proved innocent. made an assertion which I assumed was an assertion of fact, whereas it appears you were Mr Peter Dowding: No, it does not. just speculating. does! I think also Mr LEWIS: It jolly well Mr LEWIS: I have not speculated at all. I that it is unfortunate-and this may have been have competent legal advice to the effect that a slip on the pant of the Government-that the certain provisions of the legislation that have Government has not consulted with industry in this regard. The Minister prides himself on not previously been flagged do catch people. conciliation and negotiation in respect of laws That, to my mind, is not right or proper. In- thai are brought into this Parliament, yet on deed, the legislation is retrospective in the ex- or other, and I do treme and should not be accepted by the Parlia- this occasion for some reason menit. The fact is that no-one has had an oppor- not know what it is, he has been dilatory or has tunity to have a good look at the Bill. ti was not thought about it. Or perhaps, because the Treasurer introduced the Bill and flicked it introduced here last week, everyone here has to aver to the Minister, the Minister has had to cop it, no-one has seen or knows anything about it, and the Minister wants to "Sir Wear it. I do not know the reason, but there has not been any reference to industry groups con- Humphrey" it through. cerning this legislation and they are not aware Mr Peter Dowding: You were not in Parlia- of the impact the legislation will have on them. ment when the past Liberal Government was I accept that there was a*Press Statement put in, but I recall specifically that it was the rule out by the Minister for Budget Management to that legislation was introduced without any the effect that certain loopholes were to be consultation and put through. So I do not see closed: however, with the bringing of this Bill that you are in a position to argue that. into the Parliament today there are certain sec- Mr LEWIS: I have no intention of looking tions of it that were not flagged. I accept also over my shoulder to see what happened four or that certain parts of the legislation-which will five years ago. If the Minister wants to look be proclaimed when the Bill is proclaimed- backwards and be negative, that is fine. 1 am will catch people from January yet those people here for tomorrow, not for yesterday. I ask the do not know about them. So people busily go- Minister not to hang on me something that ing about their business will then find out that happened hitherto. with the introduction of this legislation they will be caught. I accept that there is a three- Mr Peter Dowding: You are arguing a prin- month period of leeway. and maybe this is the ciple with which your own party did not com- out. ply. [Wednesday, 17 June 19871 202609

Mr LEWIS: The Minister should let me get Mr LEWIS: I am glad the Minister has con- on with what I am talking about. The legis- ceded at least that he sees it is the responsibility lation contains a clause that allows a three- of the Government to advise the business com- month period for the people who may have munity of the ramifications of this legislation. been dilatory, or made an error, or whatever, to I refer to the complexity of the legislation. resubmit their documentation to the stamp There is a clause within it that provides that if office and ask that office to have another look someone is involved in a transaction whereby a at it. That is fine, but if the Government i s property is bought without the State, the per- going to pursue this legislation it has a great son who sells that property is liable for the moral obligation to tell the people in the com- payment of the stamp duty, notwithstanding munity who have had such dealings, such as the that the norm is that the purchaser of a prop- little businessman who may have bought a erty is responsible for the payment of duty in property and gone only once to a solicitor or an respect of transactions within the State. I accountant and received advice to do some- suggest that is complex and I cannot really see a thing. He has done that in all good faith and reason for it. paid the stamp duty he thought he was required to pay. There has been no publication of the Mr Peter Dowding: Could you identify the rethink by the stamp office, and this little fel- clause you are referring to? low. six or nine months down the line, will get Mr LEWIS: I do not cant all the clauses whacked, summonsed. and charged because he around with mc in my brain. Maybe the Minis- has wilfully deceived and not paid his tax. ter is paying me a compliment. Mr Peter Dowding: How could he? Mr Peter Dowding: I am sorry, I thought you Mr LEWIS: Because he was absolutely ignor- were talking about a clause in the Bill. I just ant of the provisions of this Bill. asked you which one it was. Mr Peter Dowding: Which clause do you Mr LEWIS: I apologise to the Minister; I suggest contains that? cannot put my finger on it. But I am aware of it and it is contained in the Treasurers second Mr LEWIS: I am talking in principle. There reading speech. It is to the effect that payment is a great obligation on the Government to fully of stamp duty for transactions without the advise the business community, and anyone State is the responsibility of the vendor, who has had any dealings which required the whereas for an in-State deal the responsibility payment of stamp duty and the assessment of to pay stamp duty is the purchaser's. documentation should be advised of the poss ible need to review their dealings so that they Mr Peter Dowding: On which page of the are not prosecuted after the three-month period Treasurer's statement does that appear? has expired because they did not know about it Mr LEWIS: I do not want to delay the and are deemed guilty without having had a House, but it is in the second reading speech of chance to comply. the Treasurer. Mr Peter Dowding: It is not the little man This is how complex our stamping laws are that this legislation is about. It is for dealings in becoming. If someone purchases more than 50 excess of $1 million. per cent of the equity of a trust or a company. this legislation requires that person to make a Mr LEWIS: I accept that, but $1 million statement to the stamp office spelling out the today is not really a big deal. amount of real estate or property involved. Just Mr Peter Dowding: Are you suggesting that to illustrate how ridiculous our stamping laws people who buy or sell land worth $I million have become and why they need simplifying. do not have the resources to get proper advice that person will be required to pay one rate of on this? Don't say it is the little man being stamping on the goodwill, the shares held, and oppressed. the other equities, and a different rate on the Mr LEWIS: Does the Minister think it wrong land held by that company. If ever there is an area where confusion reigns supreme, this is it. to advise the community of the Government's A person submits his documentation for intent? Why did the Minister not say. "I am stamping and is required to somehow assess the happy to do it"? The Minister is pretty quiet value of the real estate involved, and the stamp about it. office then brings down separate rates for dif- Mr Peter Dowding: I said no. Of course it is ferent items of ordinary share scrip which is not wrong. not publicly listed. 2610 2610ASSEMBLY]

We are getting to a ridiculous stage where is deemed guilty unless he can prove himself soon we will have public companies which may innocent. If that is not a contradiction of what have portfolios of millions of dollars' worth of the law should be, I do not know what is. The real estate, millions of dollars' worth of securi- situation is made worse when the Government ties, and millions of dollars' worth of stocks, throws in retrospectivity, whereby if a person shares, and negotiable bonds, and those does something it considers wrong and that companies will need a room full of accountants person does not fall into line within the three and solicitors who will have to work for a week months provided, he is automatically con- to ascertain how much everything costs and sidered to be guilty. Do Government members what value those transactions have for the pur- accept that as being right and just? By their pose of stamping. silence it seems they do. Stamping should be carried out on the basis of valuing the stock at how much it could be Society has had enough of laws and regu- sold for. We know that with the securities that lations and the neve'r-ending need to hire ac- are traded every day of the week, it is not the countants and solicitors merely to carry out a asset backing of the stock that is being bought;, simple business operation. it is the market value. We need some simplicity I know a person who runs a small pest con- in our stamping laws especially now that this trol business. He has 21 laws and regulations legislation is creating even more confusion. with which he must comply. The first thing he This legislation is just another step down the has to do is to get a certificate of registration of track of more regulations and more impo- his business namne; then he needs to be sitions that the Government is placing on com- registered as a pest control operator; then he merce and industry in our State today. I do not needs a licence to procure chemicals; then he know how many pieces of legislation were needs a licence to store those chemicals; then passed by the Parliament last session. There he needs a licence to operate the store where he were 130 items on the Notice Paper and just keeps those chemicals; then he needs a licence four or five dropped off. Every session of Par- to store flammable liquids;, then he needs a liameni sees hundreds of pieces of legislation Corporate Affairs return; then he needs a fac- passed into law. This legislation continues on tories and shops licence; then he needs a motor the trail of piling legislation on legislation. vehicle driver's licence; then he needs a amending Acts that are 60 or 70 years old, and transport licence; then he needs a transport of amending amendments to those Acts. We have dangerous goods licence; then he needs a VHF reached the stage where society has had a gutful base radio licence; then he needs a VHF port- of government, a gutful of regulations, and a able radio licence; then he needs a high fre- gutful of taxation. If we were responsible legis- quency base licence; then he needs a high fre- lators we would not continue in this vein. quency portable licence; then he has to pay The Government must realise that the people land tax, payroll tax, financial institutions we serve are just ordinary people; they are not duty, BAD tax, and a whole pile of other taxes. so highly intelligent that they can understand This poor little chap scarcely knows whether he easily much of the laws Of OUr land-, they re- is Arthur or Martha. He needs a string of ac- quire our laws to be simplified. All this legis- cou ntants and sol ici to rs to tellI h im wh at to do. lation does is to perpetuate the plethora of legislation and regulations which OUr Society Yet this Government says it is encouraging miust put up with every day, impositions which business, commerce, and small businesses. I do inhibit and deter anyone seeking to establish a not believe it encourages them at all. If any- business. If we speak to business people today thing the Government discourages them. That the first thing we hear them whinging about is is highlighted by all the requirements faced by over-regulation, the demands or government, that small pest control operator. taxation, and more and more legislation. Mr Peter Dowding: This legislation is to deal This legislation is draconian in that it deems with a situation where your poor little business- a person to be guilty before the law right from man has hired accountants and lawyers to the stanl. We all know that the laws of this land avoid paying stamp duty. are founded on British traditions whereby one is assumed innocent until proved guilty. We Mr LEWIS: I amn talking about a principle. had even the Birnies being deemed innocent This legislation is complex and convoluted in until the courts found them guilty. Another law the extreme. The Treasurer does not under- prevails in the area of taxation, where a person stand it, and the Minister does not understand [Wednesday, 17 June 19871 261161 it. I defy anyone in the House-other than the MR PETER DOWDING (Maylands-Min- Minister's adviser-to say that he understands ister assisting the Treasurer) [3.35 pmj: I must it. confess to finding the legislation difficult and We will put in place legislation that will re- complex but I find the Opposition's attitude to quire any Bill Or Act that impacts on commerce it consistent with the attitudes it has expressed and industry to spell out loud and clear its over the last year or so under the tutelage and economic and commercial impact on the oper- leadership of the current Leader of the Oppo- ations of business and commerce in this sition. In a word, its attitude is shallow. No-one country. Has any of the Minister's advisers or enjoys paying tax. No responsible member of people from Treasury looked at the impact of the community on the other hand could poss- this legislation on business and commerce? By ibly think that a community like ours can exist the lack of response, the Minister does not without taxes. know. Mr MacKinnon: We have never thought it Mr Peter Dowding: You are just being- could. Mr LEWIS: The Minister is going to say l am Mr PETER DOWDING: One day it will all being ridiculous again because he does not come back to haunt members of the Opposition agree with me. because I am sure, when they come back into Government-which is a long way down the Mr Peter Dowding: That is not what I was road-they will get their act together with a about to say. This legislation is about a group new leader and new members- of people who have sought to defeat the stamp duty laws of this State, using the energies of Mr Wiese interjected. lawyers and others to do so. Mr PETER DOWDING: The last speaker, Mr LEWIS: We have come to a stage where with respect, went on at great length about the everything is taxed so much that it has a issue of the unfairness of taxes, the unfairness debilitating effect on a product. The taxes be- of this legislation and how it will impact on the come so high that sales are no longer realised. little man. This legislation will close up loop- That happened in the motor vehicle industry holes in the stamp duty legislation which have when the fringe benefits tax was introduced. been identified not by the little man, but by We have very high interest rates. Motor sales in people selling properties; in one case a property this country are at a 20-year low. The Federal worth $28 million. We have a bevy of lawyers Government has suffered because of the fringe and accountants to assist in avoiding the re- benefits tax. If the Government had sponsibility that the little person has to pick up. encouraged motor vehicle sales by not having a fringe benefits tax it would have received two Mr MacKinnon: You know all about that. or three times the tax it has actually collected. Mr PETER DOWDING: The Leader of the This legislation is going down that same path. Opposition is being very sanctimonious about People will not be bothered to buy things any this issue. It will be interesting, in due course. more because they have become too expensive. to hear about his own activities when he was in It is unfortunate that the full intention of this private practice. Perhaps he would like to tell Act was not properly publicised. The the House one day about matters concerning retrospectivity provision is actual and factual "flowers". That word will be enough to trigger and will catch the people who thought they had his memory. done the right thing. The legislation i s ex- I go back to the issues raised by the Oppo- tremely complex. The Government should sition. First, I wish to refer to the delay in the have thought to advise the business community of what it was about legislation being introduced between the time but instead it has brought of the announcement in January and now. I am the legislation into this Parliament with one week's notice. The Opposition cannot accept advised that that delay has been due to the difficulty in framing the legislation. It is the retrospective clauses in the legislation and intended to shore up holes which have been cannot accept the reversal of the onus of proof pushed through stamp duty legislation. it has principle, whereby under this legislation a per- been an extremely complex tax and even as son is guilty until he proves his innocence. recently as eight weeks ago a major problem The Stamp Act needs a complete review and with the legislation was identified by the Solici- needs to be simplified so that ordinary people tor General which required a whole new within the community can understand it. recasting of it. 2612 2612[ASS EM BLYJ

Mr MacKinnon: Is that not a reason why you Mr PETER DOWDING: It was perhaps two should be consulting the section of the com- weeks ago. It was referred to t hat com m ittee for munity most affected? its comments. As a result of those comments, Mr PETER DOWDING: That is the section changes were made to the legislation. As soon of the community who are like sheep and cows as the Bill was introduced I understand it was going around the edges of a field, leaning distributed widely to the taxpayers' associ- against the fence and looking for holes. ation, the Taxation Institute of Australia, the Law Society of Western Australia, a committee Mr MacKinnon: Are you saying the lawyers of chartered accounts, and others. - are like sheep and cows? You should not judge people by your own standards. Mr MacKinnon: Did you distribute it to Mr PETER DOWDINGJ: The Leader of the those people? Opposition can say that if he wants to. Thai Is Mr PETER DOWDING: Yes, when the Bill what the professions are being hired to do-to was introduced into Parliament. test the limits of the legislation. That is one of the problems: People are allocating very Mr MacKinnon., That is not my advice. substantial resources to test the legislation and Find out whether there are any loopholes in it. M r PET ER DOW D ING: That is t he advice I Thai is the reason for the delay-the com- have been given. Again, this is not really an plexity and the difficulty in drafting the legis- issue for consultation and consensus;, it con- lation so that it will meet the demands of the cerns an iden tif ied loop hole. cornmmunity. The member for East Melville suggested that The Leader of the Opposition questioned our laws should be simple and easy to under- why the announcement was made on 13 stand. He suggested that the common mran January but the restrospectivity clause of the should be able to pick up a Bill and understand legislation was not made public until 19 its meaning. Of course, in a situation where January. there are huge resources worth millions of dol- I am advised thai Parliamentar Counsel lars put into defeating the object of legislation, suggested the hiatus because the announcement of necessity it becomes complex. What has on 13 January had received very little coverage been identified here is a difficult mechanism in the media. It was thought appropriate to for closing the loophole and it will be put in date the retrospective date to a date after there place. It is a matter of judgment about how had been more information in the public do- long we will want to go on having it tested in main about the issue. the public arena. What will happen now is that Similar problems arose in New South Wales it will be tested by those who might seek to find when these difficulties were identified. The an- alternative loopholes. nouncement in New South Wales was made on The legislation is about four areas of tax 21 November 1986 and the legislation was avoidance, not the ordinary commercial passed by Parliament only in May of this year. transactions in which people engage, but about No amount of extra resources, as the Leader of specific areas of stamp duty avoidance, It is the Opposition suggested, would address the about the manipulation of unit trusts, the sale fundamental dirniculty of framing the legis- of land by the transference of company shares, lation. the reduction in mortgage duties by the taking Mr Wiese: The New South Wales legislation of secured property out of the State, and the referred to the professional people dealing with drawing up of sales into divisions in order to it. lessen stamp duty. Mr PETER DOWDING: I will get to that. I It should be said that those people who use am informed that the legislation was referred, those mechanisms to avoid stamp duty do a on a confidential basis, and during the course disservice, in a commercial sense, to those who of its drafting, to a tax avoidance committee pay stamp duty, because they are able to which included senior representatives of the transact business and, perhaps, the sale of land legal profession. at a lower rate than a person who is genuinely Mr MacKinnon: When? complying with the requirements of the law in Mr PETER DOWDING: I am sorry;, I do not this State. know the date. Mr MacKinnon: Would you suggest that the Mr MacKinnon: A week ago; two weeks ago? same principles apply to taxation laws? [Wednesday, 17 June 1987J161 2613

Mr PETER DOWDING- Yes, of course, and ified, it is defined. We then have the very I acknowledged that. I have make it quite clear complex task of ensuring that an adequate that, in terms of the competition between statutory net is created. When the Opposition people, it is an inequitable situation and that is in Government. it will find, in these areas of should affect the Opposition's attitude towards revenue collection, avoidance that no other it. mechanisms adequately address the issue. The Leader of the Opposition and other Mr Mensaros: It is legislation by regulation. speakers raised the issue of onus of proof. Suf- A lawyer cannot advise his client on these mat- fice to say that I disagree entirely with the no- ters. tion that any interpretation of this legislation Mr PETER DOWDING: The member for can be made to suggest that the onus of proof Floreat should hark back to his own legal train- shifts to the defence to prove its innocence. It ing. He knows it is not at all. certainly does not. The obligation under this and under any other basic principle of statutory Mr Mensaros interjected. interpretation is that the onus remains with the Mr PETER DOWDING: I do not have a Crown. I will develop that argument in the firm and I have not had one since 1979. 1 do Committee stage. However, I do not want not know to what the member for Floreat is members to conclude that, because I will have referring. Whoever has purchased the name nothing more to say about it in my reply to the might well be in error but I cannot help that. second reading debate, the proposition ad- There is no adequate alternative. In some vanced by the Opposition is supported by the other place at some other time, perhaps an op- Government. I will demonstrate conclusively portunity will be given at a Fabian Society that the onus of proof for an offence remains meeting for the Opposition to make a contri- with the Crown. Indeed, the onus of proving bution as to how it is possible for alternative the malfeasance remains with the Crown. mechanisms to be put in place. I support the Of course, the Opposition can produce a bar- legislation. rister's opinion which says "That is arguable." Question put and passed. "What if," and "I am not sure." I can obtain a Bill read a second barrister's opinion to produce an opposite ar- time. gument and make it all quite clear. It depends on how a barrister is briefed and in what he is In Committee interested. It will be tested in law and we have The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Dr the Interpretation Act and the interpretation of Lawrence) in the Chair Mr Peter Dowding the law by the counts to ensure that we do not (Minister assisting the Treasurer) in charge of transfer an onus onto an accused person. the Bill. The Leader of the Opposition referred to the Clauses 1 to 3 put ad poised. three-months' time limit to register. It is caught Clause 4: Retrospective application and &an- tup in clause 4(4). The Leader of the Oppo- sitional provisions- sition's point really was about the unfairness of Mr MacKINNON: As I indicated at the out- the impact of this legislation. The requirement set, there is no question that the Opposition from now on will be that the statement be supports legislation designed to close tax avoid- lodged within three months of the date of proc- ance loopholes. There is no question either that lamation of this legislation. The people who are the Government took the right course of action caught by it. who have the potential to be in terms of making a statement in this instance caught, or are concerned about being caught, on 19 January and proceeding down that path. have an extended period in which to avoid any However, it is not appropriate that no detail question of an offence under the legislation. I was supplied to industry or commerce about think that is important because it does not how the legislation would be implemented; in mean that a hardship will be imposed on those the five months since 19 January industry has people. been flying blind. It has also been indicated by A number of speakers on the legislation re- the Law Society-it was interesting to note that ferred to retrospectivity. I do not see any the Minister did not refer to it in his remarks- alternative to the mechanisms that have been that the legislation includes a whole range of employed in the complex commercial environ- transactions which were not previously in- ment in which we now operate. I think that cluded and which it did not receive notice of. mechanism has been accepted in the commer- From that point of view, industry has been cial world-that is, when the loophole is ident- flying blind. 2614 2614[ASSEMBLY]

I do not accept the argument put forward by where the partics thereto will not have con- the Minister that the Bill is difficult and templated that the new provisions would complex, every Stamp Amendment Bill that apply. comes to this place is difficult and complex. How could they know what would apply until However, when the Government makes a such time as it the legislation was introduced? statement referring to subsequent legislation, How could they know that the legislation has a responsibility to get the legislation up and would encompass a broad range of areas, of running quickly. which no prior notice had been given? 1 reject the Minister's comment that proper consultation occurred with this Bill;, it did not. Mr Peter Dowding: The practice of the All the groups we have contacted in the com- Stamp Office has been to advise of those munity are concerned that they did not have a transactions that were likely to be caught. proper opportunity to be involved in consul- Mr MacKINNON: How are they to know? tation. It is amazing that the Minister can say Many of them do not have any idea about the in this place this week that he consulted a par- matter. The comments continue- ticular committee, that we have had two weeks The 3 month limit is extremely onerous to consider this Bill and, therefore, he is not even for transactions in which legal prac- prepared to accede to our request for further titioners are involved. Having regard to consultation or accept any amendments to the the complexity of the provision it is clear Bill. Yet, last week in the debate on the that transactions effected without the as- superannuation Bill, when he said there had sistance of legal practitioners may be been widespread consultation-we did not caught by the amendments in circum- criticise him for that-he added that he was stances where the parties have no reason- not prepared to accept criticisms or amend- able opportunity to become aware that the ments because he had consulted the people transaction may be open to re-assessment. involved. The Minister cannot have it both These transactions will result in panies be- ways. ing penalised for their ignorance of the op- In ibis instance the Government has been eration of extremely complex retrospective delinquent in terms of its lack of consultation legislation. with the private sector. We have been dealing That is a very good argument. It is not a ques- with legislation by Press statement for five tion of avoiding duty because there is no doubt months. The Government has a responsibility in that statement that the Law Society is saying to consult those people in the community who that its members will be affected by the legislation. For those do not want to aviod it. It is asking for further time 10 allow people to com- reasons I put it to the Minister that the three- ply with the intentions of this legislation, the months period should be reconsidered. I will provisions of which are much broader than in- read in full the comments made on this itially indicated. proposed section by the Law Soc iety- The legislative amendments relating to I ask the Minister to consider that request. Why cannot that period by extended transfers of interests in property to six companies has retrospective operation to months? No loss of revenue or avoidance prac- 19 January 1987. Persons to whom the tices would be involved;, it would be agreeing new provisions apply have 3 months from with the industry that the time allowed is too the commencement of the new sections to short and onerous and it would give people a lodge statements in accordance with the proper opportunity to comply with the legis- provisions thereof notwithstanding that lation. stamp duty may already have been paid in Mr PETER DOWDING: Let me make it relation to the transaction in accordance clear that I reject the proposition that the legis- with the existing provisions of the Act. A lation is broader than the announcement. The failure to lodge such a statement will of legislation is substantially narrower than the course involve a contravention of the Act, announcement in relation to, firstly, the re- with attendant criminal consequences. quirement of holding more than a 50 per cent Given the complexity of the provisions, it interest in the company;. secondly, to the land is without doubt that instruments which valuation percentage; thirdly, to the value of have been properly stamped in accordance the land. The legislation is narrower than the with the existing legislation will now re- announcement, and the Leader of the Oppo- quire re-assessment in circumstances sition is wrong on that point. [Wednesday, 17 June 1987J161 2615

The point made by the Law Society is a In other words, this amendment will give the broad point, that somehow a whole lot of people in the commercial sector who are caught people might be caught who have no resources. under this Act, six months in which to comply. They are people who are selling land with a I also reject the Minister's claim that it is not value in excess of' $1 million. I reject the small business people who are caught under proposition that they are the sorts of people this net. Sure. S I million-worth of property who are just like ordinary Mr and Mrs Average, sounds like a big investment, but I put it to the who are buying a house down the road. It does Chamber that in these days public servants are not relate to those sorts of people. Therefore, it retiring with lump-sum settlements of $250 000 is a narrower range than the Leader of the Op- or $500 000, and they are not wealthy land- position wishes to identify, and a narrower owners; they could be buying a property in range than the Law Society suggests. partnership with other people;, or they could be putting a deposit on a property and borrowing Three months is thought to be a reasonable the balance of the money. So it may be a SI period for people to lodge statements. I am million property involved in the transaction, informed that during the currency of the period but it is not necessarily big business people who since the announcement to now, the stamp are caught. These people may consult lawyers officers have in fact taken the step of informing along the way, but until such time as their pro- people whose transactions are likely to be fessional advisers have time to examine the caught that they may be required to lodge a legislation in detail and look through all their statement. That step has been put in place. files to see whether their clients are involved, Therefore, the fear expressed by the Law So- and advise them so that they can comply, they ciety in a broad way is not relevant to the much will not know whether they are caught under narrower position in which we find ourselves this legislation. today. I see nothing wrong with extending the time. Mr MacKINNON: I indicate to the Minister We are not seeking to avoid the legislation. All that it is the Law Society which says the Bill is we are saying is that we believe the legislation broader, and not I. The Minister is saying that is complex and people should be given more the Law Society-and I presume he was a time to comply with it, bearing in mind the member of it once, and may still be-is wrong. legislation is retrospective and in effect is legis- I indicate, for the benefit of the Minister, what lation by Press statement. the Law Society's statement says. it is clear. and not doubtful- It says- Mr PETER DOWDING: I keep trying to drive the Leader of the Opposition back to the It is clear that the legislation has a far Bill and not back to some sort of fanciful image broader operation that was foreshadowed of the Bill. This is not about peoplejust buying in the Konourable Minister's statement, properties; it is about people buying properties and will affect a range of transactions in circumstances designed to avoid stamp duty. which on no interpretation of the media When those people went into the scheme, they statement would have been caught. knew that they were going into a scheme to It is pretty clear to me what that says, and it avoid stamp duty. They are the people required seems the Law Society has a very good point. to lodge the statement: that is, it is only those The Minister has not given any valid argument people who went into a relevant acquisition- why we cannot extend that period of time. and **relevant acquisition" is defined in the These people are not avoiding tax. They are not Bill. So it is not just the ordinary person who evading their responsibilities. All we are doing has bought a block of land. To my way or is saying, particularly in this instance where thinking, a person buying a block or land worth there has been no consultation with that sec- $1 million is a very extraordinary person, but tion of the community which should have been that apparently is not the position taken by the consulted-it has been totally ignored-that Leader of the Opposition. we will give them more time to comply and Mr Weise interjected. situdy what is, in the Words of both the Min ister and the Law Society, complex legislation, to see Mr PETER DOWDING: Of course not, but if they are caught under its terms. this is not about the acquisition of farming properties; it is about the acquisition of prop- I therefore move an amendment- erty through a mechanism- Page 2, line 22-To delete the figure "3" Mr Weise: Farming properties that are with a view to substituting the figure -6". owned by companies that are held in shares. 2616 2616[ASSEMBLY]

Mr Lewis: Or trustee status. Amendment put and a division taken with the following result- Mr PETER DOWDING: No; it is the acqui- Ayes IS Mr Blaikie Mr Lewis sition of the shares. It is the acquiisition of the M r Cash Mr Lightfoot property through a mechanism which is caught. Mr Court Mr MacKinnon Mr Cowan Mr Mensaros M r Crane Mr Schell Mr Lewis: Are you not allowed to buy prop- MrGrayden Mr Stephens erty by way of shares? M r Hassell Mr Tabby Mr House Mr Wiese Mr Laurnmce Mr Watt Mr PETER DOWDING: Of course one can, but it cannot he done to avoid stamp duty. Noes 24 Dr Alexander Mr Gordon Hill Mrs Bes Mr Hodge Mr MacKinnon: They may not be doing it to Mr Bridge Mr Parker Mr Bryce Mr Pearce avoid stamp duty. Mr Brian Burke Mr D. L. Smith Mr Burkett Mr PtJ Smith (Tell,,) Mr Donovan Mr Taylor Mr PETER DOWDING: My instructions Mr Peter Dowding Mr Troy from the Treasurer are that it is regarded as Mr Evans Mrs Watkins appropriate that there should be a period for Dr Gallop Dr Watson Mr Grill Mr Wilson people to lodge declarations. People have in Mrs Henderson Mrs Buchanan fact been warned that the legislation is being drawn up and their transaction is one that is Pairs likely to be caught, and in those circumstances Ayes Noes it is thought appropriate. because of the MrClarko Mr Thomas Mr Spripgs Mr Tom Jones potential revenue loss to the State, that there Mr Williams Mr Carr should be a period of three months within Mr Thompson Mr Read which they can lodge their statements. There Mr Bradshaw Mr Marlborough has not been anything said here today which Mr Rushton Mr Bertram really could cause one to take a view that an Amendment thus negatived. extension of that period isiustified. Clause put and passed. Clauses 5 to 7 put and passed. Mr MacKINNON: I again say that these are Clause 8: Section 26 amendd- the words of the Law Society; they are not my Mr MacKINNON: This clause was referred own words- to by the Minister and several members during the second reading debate. It refers to the onus it is clear that the legislation has a far of proof, and reads in part as follows- broader operation than was foreshadowed (I a) For the purposes of subsection (I1) in the honourable Minister's statement. the suppression from an instrument of any fact or circumstance referred to in That clearly puts the lie to what the Minister subsection (1) or the inclusion therein of has just said. He said they had been clearly any matter that is known to be false in a warned; they had prior knowledge. The Law material particular is prima Jacie evidence Society is saying to us that this legislation is far of intent to defraud the Crown. broader than the statement, or previous warn- To me-and l am not a lawyer-this seems, on ing that was issued, gave people to understand. the face of it. to be pretty straight reading. If that is the case-and it does appear to be the There is inclusion in the clause of -any matter case from the Law Society's paint of view-it is that is known to be false in a material particu- clear that we should give all people who are so lar is prima facie evidence". In other words, on affected proper time to comply. I repeat that the face of it, the evidence of intent to defraud we are not condoning avoidlance; we are want- the Crown. I think the danger of this new ing to stop it. All we are asking the Govern- clause is that it reverses the onus of proof menit to do is to give people who previously which is usually applicable in a criminal mat- had no knowledge that they would be caught by ter. The current provision says that the onus of the provisions of this Bill, until the matter be- proof is upon the Crown: guilt is not assumed. came public, appropriate time to comply. It could be, as I have said before, the case that a

[Wednesday. 17 June 1987] 2617 because a fact or circumstance affecting the in a particular transaction where a person has liability or duty has not been included in the either suppressed or actively included certain instrument, a person is deemed to have de- material. That is all it is. It is not a question of frauded the Crown unless he or she can prove guilt or innocence. it is a question of whether otherwise. the Crown has to prove intent. It is very diffi- The reason put forward for the inclusion of cult when one is dealing with a transaction like this clause is that it has been difficult for the this not only to demonstrate the facts of the Crown under the current section to prove that transaction-that is often difficult enough- there is an attempt to defraud, Under this new but to then identify the intellectual elements clause it will be equally difficult for any person involved. Unless it cries out from the nature of so included under this clause to prove that it the actual transaction, the Crown has no way of was not his intent, on the face of it, to defraud establishing intent, perhaps short of admission. the Crown. The circumstances referred to here In commercial places where people have sur- will be an onus of proof for them under the rounded themselves with a phalanx of account- terms of the proposed new subsection. ants, lawyers and general advisers, there is no way that one can get an admission of this sort Mr Peter Dowding: They don't have to prove that goes to the issue of intent. it. The Oxford Dictionary defines the word Mr MacKINNON: They have to prove their -suppress" as follows- innocence. The Minister can explain to me in simple non-legalistic language why that is in suppress, v.t. Put down, quell, put an end this clause. The Minister implied that a barris- to activity or existcnce of ... restrain, keep ter's opinion was sought in relation to this in, not give vent to, withhold or withdraw clause. All I did was to send a copy of this to from publication, keep secret, not reveal the barrister, who was a friend of mine, and say, ..facts. "Here is the Stamp Amendment Bill; could you What is important about all of those elements give me your comment on it?" I did not ask for is that they are active elements. They are ac- any legal opinion and I did not give any lions taken not through a mistake or error but specific direction. He came back to me express- on a deliberate path of not providing certain ing his grave concern about this clause. It was information. his interpretation that drew my attention to The Clerk was kind enough to draw to my this clause, which would have had my attention attention a reference in Saunders' Words and anyway because it is not a principle to which I Phrases to suppression on page 154 which deals subscribe. with the case of Re Harris, ex pante Hasluck Mr PETER DOWDING: Firstly, the clause where it says- does not reverse the onus of proof. It says that This case . .. involves to some extent a where there has been "'active Suppression", that construction of the 82nd section of the active failure to provide information, or the Bankruptcy Act ... which enacts that the inclusion of matter known to be false in a ma- order of release may be revoked on proof terial particular, that is prima facie evidence of that it was obtained "by fraud or by the intent to defraud. suppression or concealment of any ma- In other words, whereas previously one had terial fact". to show that one of those two elements was The judge then said this- present together with an intent to defraud, one I think those words ought to be con- has to prove one of two active matters. Either strued as meaning fraud, or such sup- one has actively refrained from providing in- pression or concealment as has in it some formation or one has actively included infor- clement of fraud. I think it would be a mation knowing itI to be false in a material way. wrong construction to say that the Board Mr MacKinnon: Suppose you are the com- of Trade may revoke the release simply missioner and you say, "He has actively because some material fact has actually suppressed it". What does that mean? been concealed, if there were no element of Mr PETER DOWDING: I will come to the wrongfulness in the circumstances of the meaning of the word "suppression" in a mo- concealment. ment. Let me make it quite clear that what is I do not want it thought that I am limiting by referred to here is not an assumption of some- this reference the interpretative abilities of a body's guilt, but a requirement that it is not court down the track, notwithstanding the In- necessary to prove intent to defraud the Crown terpretation Act, but I draw it to members' 2618 2618ASSEM BLY] attention as an illustration of the sort of pro- It is wrong to suggest that the guilt is estab- cess through which the parties would go in a lished simply by an averment. It is quite a dif- prosecution under a proposed section like this. ferent kettle of fish. I strongly support the re- qui rement of proposed subsection 26(l a) in or- It is nonsense for the Leader of the Oppo- der to ensure that those people who sition in his office to say to me in my office, deliberately set about avoiding the duties "Please explain this in simple language-not imposed by the Stamp Act are caught in a way like that used by lawyers." It is precisely be- in which the prosecution has a meaningful op-. cause lawyers are going to use the sort of portunity to establish guilt without having language I have just quoted that we need to virtually to claw open a person's mind and in understand how to deal with the plain meaning some way demonstrate intent. of proposed section 26 which is that it is not shifting the onus. It requires a suppression or Mr MacKinnon: I listened to your comments inclusion of material known to be false. What is with interest, but how do you determine the it that is required to be suppressed? It is a fact difference between omission and suppression? or circumstance referred to in the principal Act How can you determine whether someone in section 26(l) which says- deliberately or negligently omitted something? Mr PETER DOWDING: That is a matter for All the facts and circumstances affecting evidence. I am saying the suppression has in it the liability of any instrument to duty, or me of the duty ... an element of wrongdoing. It is not up to the amount because it is very difficult to give examples In other words if a person decides that he will when one is making up hypothetical cases, but not provide information and he will suppress within the word "tsuppression", just as within from the knowledge of the commissioner ma- the words "inclusion of material facts, " one terial information such as that referred to in gets a common element; that is, someone has section 26(1) of the principal Act the Crown no made a decision to do something. longer has to prove that person had the intent Mr MacKinnon: I-ow do you determine to defraud. It is enough to assume that person whether they have made a decision to suppress had the intent to defraud. One can establish on or whether they made a mistake? a lesser burden-the balance of probabilities- that one did not. Once it can be shown that Mr PETER DOWDING: How does one someone set about withholding material or in- demonstrate suppression? cluding false material one does not have to 11r MacKinnon: Exactly. chase the mental element. It is impossible to Mr PETER DOWDING: One would demon- chase the mental clement. and my officer's ad- strate clear knowledge. One might actually vice is it is the son of thing where prosecutions have a document which says, -Should we in- have not succeeded because one cannot find form the commissioner of this?" and the de- evidence of the mental element. That is known cision is "No." One might have a set of circum- only to the person who has taken the deliberate stances which so patently cry out for disclosure step. that one can say the failure to disclose is not an I argue very strongly that it is wrong to omission but a suppression. One can demon- characterise this proposed subsection as shift- strate that people knew of matters and Of their ing the burden of proof of innocence onto a rclevance, but that they took steps to not make party. It sets up a clear case with the element of that statement. One can do it in a variety of suppression or of inclusion of false infor- ways. It is quite different from somebody who mation, and after that one has enough to con- is caught up in a transaction he does not under- vict:, but one leaves open to the accused the stand with requirements which he does not ap>- option of establishing that he did not have in- preciate and through some slip or misunder- tent. The complexity of it is that within the standing finds himself caught. concept of suppression or the concept of in- This is very important. We are talking about elusion of a false material particular there is the the question of proof before somebody starts concept of a knowing act by the party. So one giving an explanation. Once they start giving has to demonstrate not just that a transaction an explanation. of course, they have the oppor- was happening at arm's length and that one did tunity of saying to the court, "This was an not really intend it. and thereby a material par- omission; here are the circumstances from ticular was omitted;, one also has to demon- which you can see that what appeared to be strate that the party suppressed the material suppression was in fact an inadvertent particular. omission." That is open to people because evi- [Wednesday, 17 June 1987j 261961 denee of suppression goes no further than no "mining tenement" means- longer requiring evidence of intent to be (a) a mining tenement held under the produced. It requires only evidence of sup- Mining Act 1978 being a mining pression to establish a prima facie case, giving tenement within the meaning of a person an opportunity to respond and refute that Act or the Mining Act 1904:, that case on a burden of proof. Thai is a quan- and turn leap smaller than the burden of proof car- ried by the prosecution. (bi a mining tenement or right of occupancy continued in force by Mr MacKINNON: I listened with interest to section 5Sof the Mining Act 1978- the Minister, and it seems to me he may have a Mr MacKI NNON: We have not received any good point. I am still very unhappy with the comment on these amendments from the clause which appears to me. as a non-pro- people we have consulted with. I therefore can- fessional, to presume a person is guilty until he not comment on them other than to say that has proved his innocence. I am prepared to they seem okay to me. The Opposition may accept the Minister's explanation, subject 1o comment on them further in the other place our being able to get a copy tomorrow of his after we have received that advice. comments in Hansardand consult the barrister Amendment put and passed. who advised me and the Law Society. If we still have concern after that advice we will move in The clause was further amended, on motions another place for the exclusion of this clause as by M r Peter Dowding, as follows- I indicated I would do during the Committee Page 15, line 15-To insert after debate in this Chamber. "scheme" the following- Clause put and passed. , but, except in section 76A, does not include a unit trust scheme re- Clauses 9 to 21 put and passed. ferred to in paragraph (c) of the defi- n iti on of -"marketable securi ty" i n sec- Clause 22: Pant IIIBA inserted- tion 4 (1) Mr PETER DOWDING: I move the follow- Page 16, lines 39 and 40-To delete ing amendment- "substantially one acquisition or one series of acquisitions" and substitute the follow- Page 13, lines 22 and 23-To delete ing- Fo "whether at meetings of the company or usatal n the directors or otherwise,". or arise transactijon or one series of This amendment arises fro m the transactions recommendations 6f the tax avoidance com- Page 27, line 2-To delete mittee to which I referred earlier. It comprises "immediately". members of the legal profession who advised the Government during the finalisation of this Page 28, line 7-To delete legislation. "immediately". Page 28, line 15-To delete Amendment put and passed. "immediately". Mr PETER DOWDING: I move a further Page 28, line 30-To delete amendment- "immediately". Page 29. line 7-To delete Page 15. l ines 4 to 9-To delete the defi- "immediately". nition of "land" and substitute the follow- ing definitions- Page 29, line 17-To delete "immediately". "land" includes a mining tenement, Page 30, line 6-To delete and also includes- "immediately". (a) any estate or interest in land:. and Page 35, line 13-To delete "immediately". (b) anything fixed to the land includ- ing anything that is, or purports Page 35, line 25-To delete to be. the subject of ownership separate from the ownership of Page 36. line 2-To delete the land: "immediately". 2620 2620[ASSEMBLY]

Page 36, line 21-To delete The Technology Development Authority, the "immediately". Science, Industry and Technology Council. the Page 37. line 13-To delete Technology Directorate, and the restructured "immediately". Department of Industrial Development will be amalgamated and form the new Technology Page 37. line 22-To delete and Industry Development Authority or TIDA. "immediately". The Minister has not been short of funds in the Page 38, line 14-To delete operation of these authorities; in fact, he has "immediately". been looked after generously by the Govern- Clause, as wmended, put and passed. ment. That is not the problem. Clauses 23 to 25 put and pasised. It is simply a matter of how effectively those Title put and passed. funds have been used. I do have a small example I will outline to the House. Very re- cently someone showed me a letter he had Report received from the Minister's department. It Bill reported, with amendrnents. and the re- consisted only of two A4 pages. but it was sent port adopted. in a very large envelope which I have in my hands. It is a great big envelope for only two Third Readi' 19 small pages. Bill read a third time, on mnotion by Mr Peter Mr Bryce: It was what was between the lines Dowding (Minister assistingt he Treasurer), and that counted. transmitted to the Council. Mr COURT: Is that right? The letter I TECHNOLOGY DEVE LOPMENT received from my constituent stated that the AMENDMENT BILL letter was a complete waste of funds and that the department should not be sending out bulk Second Readi rig mail so inefficiently. Debate resumed from 26 MI[ay. Mr Bryce: That constituent would probably MR COURT (Nedlands) [4.37 pm]: This never be pleased regardless of how the agency legislation is designed to imiplement the third was run because it is the Government he does revamp of the Governmen it's industry and not approve of. technology structure in foui ryears. I believe that, if the Minister had been doing his job Mr COURT: That is not the case. It is nega- properly, these revamps wou Id not be necess- live to send out direct mail asking for assist- ary. I think the situation is serious. What a ance or explaining something when it is done in record and what a performan ce! For four years an inefficient manner. we have listened to rhetori ic. seen cosmetic Before the Minister gets upset. I advise him changes, watched the Ministe::r steering without that the opposition will support this latest re- a rudder, and the lowering of staff morale be- vamp of the Minister's department. It is an cause of this Minister's irresponsible action. I attempt to rationalise the unwieldy structure think this performance has been disgraceful. that has been established. There has been a huge turniover of staff, and particularly of senior staff in the different The Opposition will take the opportunity of authorities dealt with in this Iegislation. this debate to outline the Government's many failures in the area of industry and technology. We were told, at the time of the last revamp. Where praise is due, praise will be given. that the Government was cionsidering the ef- Aiciency of the Department ol fIndustrial Devel- This Government has presided over a de- opment and cut down on staff. The end result cline in this State's economic performance in was that the department needed extra office the manufacturing industries. Four years ago space. The latest revamp wil I mean a number the Minister said that we should get away from of the senior staff will eithei rleave the public our dependence on traditional agricultural and sector totally, or will be red leployed to other mining industries. In fact, what we have seen Government. It may not seem terribly expensive happening is a neglect of those industries. On to change the name of an authority, create a new the one hand, they have not been given a high one, or get rid of an old one,I but stationery and priority, but on the other hand there have not logos have to be changed and all of that costs bcen any other industries to replace them to money. receive a high priority. (Wednesday. 17 June 1987] 222621

Itris still the agricultural and mining indus- not be separated from industry. The traditional tries, by and large, that are keeping the econ- industries which people wanted to neglect for omy afloat. It is projects like the North West some years are, in actual fact. the springboard Shelf gas project, which is the only major proj- which allows the introduction of most of' the ect under way in this State, that are helping the new technology that is being applied or devel- economy. The Minister and the Premier have oped in this State. been childish to again, after four years of not The Minister's grasp of technology was doing it, attack the previous Government and misdirected and he simply failed to understand the way it put together the North West Shelf how technology, for ex~ample had made gas project. agriculture one of the most efficient industries Whenever possible, I take the opportunity to in this country. Internationally, it has remained visit a wide range of industries throughout the competitive because over many years it has State. Recently. I have been spending a great been working in the forefront of technology. deal of moy time in the Rockingham and High technology is intimately tied to manu- Kwinana area. At many of the places I have facturing. It is not the separate magical indus- visited and the functions I have attended the tr to which I was referring. It is like many of member for Cockburn has been in attendance. the service industries which are so important When one visits the Kwinanas, the Welshpools, for the prosperity of a country. By and large, and the Geraldtons and talks to representatives those service industries are tied to a successful from a number of industries that are often manufacturing sector. Unlike the Minister. I nearly solely dependent on the work that is am one of those people who will argue strongly connected with the North West Shelf gas proj- that a service-based "post-industrial" economy ect-such as some of the corrosion firms, the econ- heavy engineering firms, being the next step to an industry-based and the technology- omy is nonsense. At the end of the day a orientated farms-one realises they have good grow, thrive, or prosper contacts with country simply cannot the project. It is important for by people taking in each other's washing. members to understand the multiplier effect that is currently occurring throughout this State It worries me that in some countries-we as a result of that project. have become one of those countries-there is a lot of talk about the growth of service indus- The Government in finalty admitting that it reality of the situation is that at the made a mistake in trying tries. The to treat technolg manu- separately from industrial development,an end of the day if there is not a growing facturing sector there cannot be a growing ser- this legislation will bring all the departments vice industry sector. Members should look at concerned under the one banner. the countries that are flourishing. They tend to The Minister obviously realised that when he have a producer logic. The United Slates of first came to Government he would not be able America has a consumer logic. Countries like to perform in the same way as did the previous Japan. Korea, Taiwan, and West Germany are Liberal Government. That Government had a always trying to become more efficient pro- large programme of resources development and ducers. related to it was a great deal of industrial devel- Japan was the country that led the world in opment. This M inister decided that he had bet- automation. If ever a country should have been ter hang his hat on trying to get a name in the at the forefront of automation, it should have field of technology. That was to be his claim to been Australia. It does not have a large labour fame. He wanted the word "technology" to be- force, yet the countries with large labour forces come a buzz word, and it did become the have been at the forefront of automation and trendy buzz word. their industry sectors have become more ef- In the process of doing that the Minister built ficient. That allows them to compete in the up a lot of false hopes. People were under the tough world marketplace. impression that the mining and agricultural in- The biggest problem we have had since the dustries were a thing of the past and that we last World War is the protection policies which would have a new technology industry. They have been unfortunately supported by people thought it was the magical cure-all and that it of both political persuasions. Those protection would get this country back on its feet. policie%did a lot of harm, especially when one It is now four and a half years later, when the considers that Germany and Japan were not Australian economy is going backwards, and stationary: they kept moving to the next stage the Government realises that technology can- to keep in front. 2622 2622ASSEMBLY]

Australia has an automated agricultural in- trying to help that push. The member for dustry and it has become extremely efficient, as Murchison-Eyre will be expanding on some of has the mining industry. The growth of our those concerns a little later. service industries is directly linked to the growtb Mr Taylor: Be careful! of the agricultural, mining, manufacturing, and transport sectors. Mr COURT: What does the Minister mean by that? If we do not perform, if we keep allowing these industries to go overseas, or their work to Mr Taylor: We might get another visit. be done by another country, if we allow more Mr COURT: What does the Minister mean and more manufacturing processes to go over- by that? seas, we will start losing those service indus- tries which are related to them. Mr Taylor: I thought you might know. Following the leadership in production Mr COURT: No. Perhaps the Minister can changes around the world, those countries explain it during the debate or afterwards. which have become very good producers have The Department of Industrial Development now become leaders in the provision of money used to be a relatively small department under and the other services which go with it. Japan is Liberal Governments which presided over a a classic example. Ten to 15 years ago Japan great deal of industrial development in this would not have been considered as a major State and saw the need for such a department. provider of financial resources. Japan has Under this Government many of the depart- performed so well, and it has so much wealth ment's responsibilities have been taken away. and money, that nine of the top 10 banks in the Initially the technology bureaucracy was world are Japanese banks, and they are now created with a TDA and technology lending money to us. directorate. WADC and EXIM were formed. One of the problems we are facing in They started to move into similar areas. In Australia today is that by allowing our manu- many cases they have been quite antagonistic facturing companies to decline, we are also to the work done by Government departments. losing some of the associated service industries. They see themselves as the whizz-bang oper- For that reason it is very important to try to ators, and the Government departments have reverse that pmocess in this country. not been quick to react. There has been some duplication of activities there. One of the main criticisms of this Govern- ment has been the duplication which has oc- Other bodies, such as the South West Devel- curred, not only within its own departments. opment Authority, the Tourism Commission such as the Department of Industrial Develop- and other boides, now have the power to ment, or the Department of Regional Develop- operate in these areas. I read an advertisement ment and the North West. but with operations in this morning's paper promoting river trips such as WADC, EXIM, the South West Devel- down the Hawkesbury River on a big ferry. opment Authority, the Small Business Devel- One stays on board. This was a Westrail adver- opment Corporation, and the Small Business tisement. I do not know how Westrail has got Investment Corporation, where many different into it. bodies have been involved in many cases with Mr Bryce: It is called entrepreneurship. the same sorts of functions. Mr COURT: I was trying to work out how I asked a question about the number of dif- Westrail is involved in a cruise down the ferent bodies having some sort of export func- llawkesbury. Different flash reports have come tion. It was interesting to see all those different out, but, let us face it, by and large the depart- people trying to do the same sort of work. The ment has been stripped of many of its duties end result is that we are not going to be ef- and responsibilities by these other organis- ficient as a Government with such a large level ations muscling in. Confusion has been created of duplication. in the public and private sectors, particularly as We have been studying the work done in these organisations have tried to move into di- Kalgoorlie for the establishment of a new in- rect competition with the private sector. dustrial centre in that region. The Department A year or so ago there was a flash advertising of Industrial Development does not appear to campaign on television, and it was not even be involved. The Department of Regional De- possible to have these advertisements made in velopment and the North West might be. but Western Australia. I hope we never see a repeat there is no clear-cut rule as to who should be of that exercise where a Government bureauc- (Wednesday. 17 June 1987] 222623 racy designed to encourage local industry goes back our living standards-that we will have to as far as having its own advertisement prepared take a bit more of a reduction before we can interstate. turn around and begin to come good. When the ALP entered Government, this The Government can keep talking that way new bureaucracy was set up. At the same time for so long, but after four years we should by these new Government corporations were es- now have started to see a bit of light, part icu- tablished. In 1984 or 1985 the Minister went to larly as those regions around us have been great lengths to say that (his industry had an performing so well. over-reliance on its traditional industries and Mr Bryce: I remind you that in 1984-85 this mentality must be changed. The Minister Australia experienced record levels of econ- spoke of giving the DID a "new direction". At omic growth exceeding five per cent. that time any direction would have been Mr COURT: Yes, the Minister raises a very welcomed by this department as at that time it good point; and at that time this country was had a sense of rejection, not direction, running some very large deficits. I will not be- In the second revamp the Minister came out come sidetracked by economic arguments. It is saying that there would be a flattening of the the old story-one spends a lot of money that organisation. I do not know what that means, does not belong to one. but the Government flattened it anyway. Mr Bryce: The private sector? After those two revamps not a great deal has Mr COURT: The public and private sectors. happened. The Government neglected those But the private sector must make sure it repays so-called traditional industries which I see as its loans. It can commit itself only so far, but still being important, in favour of those areas the public sector is getting into bigger and big- which the Minister is so keen to talk about- ger debt and the question mark on our econ- the new technology areas. omy is: Do we as a country have the ability to repay that debt? Australians have a great track record as inno- M r Bryce: It is called takeover sickness. vators. Too many of our good ideas are going overseas. We made a fuss a year or so ago about Mr COURT: I must move quickly now be- the danger of losing the Ralph Sarich project to cause of the time restrictions placed on these another country. Work is now being done to get debates. What I am saying is that the industrial that invention into production in Australia base of this State has been neglected and our rather than overseas. We are capable of things so-called traditional industries should not be of' that sort here, but sufficient incentives must neglected. Farming. transport, forestry, fishing. be in place. construction, and so they go on-they arc the springboard for the new developments which The Minister would know that many of the we must see. people I deal with have come up with good A classic case is the floriculture industry. In- ideas for new pmoducts. They are manufactur- itially the Government wanted to become a ing in Hong Kong and places like that, and this player in that industry. The people in the in- hurts me. They give as reasons lower manufac- dustry have felt their way and learnt to export turing costs, speed of getting new products into their product, and it is not an easy product to production. and the ability to market products export. Just as it has taken years for the veg- better from Hong Kong and places like that etable growers to learn how to get their product because of expertise in shipping; they do not into the Asian markets, so it has taken time for become so involved in politics. Talking of the floriculture industry to get its act together. Hong Kong. its people are not fussed if a But the benefits and spin-off's go far. product goes to South Africa. They have the Companies are developing sophisticated irri- techniques to get products into all pants of the gation and reticulation control systems. Once world, and that is often not the case here. they are working property those in the industry We are living in one of the most rapidly- will themselves have the ability to export their growing, vibrant regions of the world. People products overseas. want an explanation of why we are not bente- That is a good example of what I would re- fiting from the tremendous activity taking gard as a traditional industry. Growing flowers place around us. We should be having positive is becoming more and more sophisticated. The news for the future. The Prime Minister, and need for transportation of flowers means there the Premier of this State, say that we must cut must be developments in the way the product is 2624 2624I[ASSEM BLY] packaged and the type of transport that is used. to encourage the growth of that type of industry In fact, it is not seen as a glamour industry but when that sort of negative tax is being as a traditional industry that is very dependent introduced. upon technology. The Federal Government must address the We are talking about the decline of industry size of government and the duplication of ser- in this State. and I will enumerate some of the vices by Federal and State arrangements. The things that need to be done. The Federal and industrial relations system often comes under State Governments both have to play a role criticism, whether or not Government likes it, and in many cases some of their functions and the recent amendments to the Federal in- overlap. One thing that certainly hurts new in- dustrial relations law, for example, when the dustry is 'the continued high level of interest Government tried to put the unions above the rates. It is very difficult for businesses to have law, was the type of legislative decision that new investment when they are faced with these really scares people who are considering mak- interest rates. We also have problems with tax- ing an investment in this State. ation; for instance, company tax. The reduction of the rate of company tax would be the single blugest boost we could have towards getting On the State Government scene, again the new private investment into this country. I industrial relations performance is not attract- know it is easy to talk about cutting taxation ive. People may be interested in investing in a and that we must also talk about the expendi- tourist industry or a construction project, but ture side, but they are the sorts of initiatives we they look at the track record of some of our see in other countries. When people compare militant unions, and it scares them off. If they investing here as against investing in another are interested in investing in an industry that is country it is factors like company tax levels dependent upon exporting a perishable product that are important. and they see the continuous problems on our wharfs or problems of getting the product out I refer now to the capital gains tax. In today's of the country, it turns them off. It is the same The Australian Financial Review there was an with work practices: If the work practices in article concerning Bill Wyllie, a great Western industries are allowed to get out of hand, it Australian who I think has too many of his scares away investors. operations in Asia for reasons of compe- tition-he wants to be internationally competi- All these problems can be overcome, and in tive, particularly in the computer industry, and many eases it requires tough and often un- other fields. However, he was prepared to do a pleasant action by the Government of the day. major float in Australia. The article states in They are the types of issues that I believe this part- Government should have been addressing, but it has not been addressing them. There are Australia's taxation laws have caused ex- many positive reasons why industries should be- patriate businessman, Mr Bill Wyllie. to establishing themselves in Western Australia abandon plans for a backdoor listing of his and it is a pity we have these negative points local investment company. Asia Securities which have been turning people away. (Australia) Pty Ltd. The decision means that one of At the last State election the Liberal Party Australia's better known and most success- prepared some quite detailed policies on indus- ful businessman, and a sharemarket inves- try, technology, small business, industrial re- tor who is often mimicked by admirers, lations. and a series of similar policies and will continue to be unrepresented on the came up with many of those initiatives we stock exchange boards apart from strategic thought necessary to improve the industrial de- investments and directorships. velopment of this country. Some countries in other pants of the world have been very success- I think it is a pity that our taxation laws are ful. In this Chamber we tend to be introverted such that we cannot encourage these people to and look only at what is happening from day to establish more of their operations in this day in this State. but when we prepared those country. We have seen the effect that the fringe policies we took the time to look at what was benefits tax has had, and I will not discuss that happening in other parts of the world, and de- subject at length. but the car industry now is cided that there are five basic rules that those really feeling the hurt of that tax. It is difficult countries follow to make them successful. [Wednesday. l7iJune 19871 262562

The first is that Governments must be small. seems to be an area not at all well looked after As I said in this House the other day, there is in this country-the whole area of production an old Chinese saying, "You govern a great engineering. nation the same way you cook a small fish- you do not overdo it". We want to see an upgrading of computer facilities in primary and secondary schools. Be- Mr Bryce: Would you call the bureaucracy of latedly the Minister far Education has said that China small? the Government will now implement its elec- tion promise to provide adequate computers Mr COURT: I said it was an old Chinese for schools. saying. We want to improve the liaison between the Mr Bryce: The Chinese bureaucracy, whether work being carried out in tertiary institutions pre or post-revolution, has never been small. and industr itself. Major improvements can Mr COURT: I am talking about five things be made in this area because there is a lot of that make countries successful. Low taxation is extremely good work being done in our tertiary the second, and the third is freedom from cor- institutions which is not being properly carried ruption. People will not invest in countries on into production. where they see that there is corruption in We see in the United States that its defence Government. The fourth element is that they purchasing procedures have been used as an must be outward-looking and regard the world impetus to boost new industries. In our own as their marketplace, and they must have a small way we would like to think that the State work ethic-the fifth factor is that. Government's purchasing policies can be used To compete internationally is not just a mat- to help local industries. We want a major over- ter of being able to produce cheap goods or haul of Government purchasing so that local goods to a certain price. As the Minister knows industry can became more involved. We want only too well, it is a matter of price, quality, purchasing orders broken down into small con- service, design, and reliability of supply. These tracts. This policy has been successful in the are areas where Australia has a lot to learn and United States. Where a local tenderer is unsuc- the Liberal Party's policies emphasise those cessful, we want him to be given reasons why areas. Again I use Japan as an example. After his tender was unsuccessful. the war, when I was at school, Japanese We want more work done in the communi- products did not have a good name, but a sur- cations field because we see (he communi- vey of consumers last year in the United States cations industry as one of the big growth areas. on the quality and reliability of motor cars. yet it is one industry which has been tied up by showed that the top eight cars in the United a Government monopoly, Telecom. I was States were Japanese, and the ninth was a interested to read in this morning's paper that Mercedes-Benz. They are the two countries the Australian Postal and Telecommnu nicat ions that have been concentrating on the areas of Union, the largest communications industry quality and design. union, has issued what amounts to an ulti- I will run through the sorts of areas we have matum to the Federal Government to meet its included in our policy. We want design to be an superannuation and workers' compensation de- essential criterion in establishing suppliers for mands or see the union withhold its ALP elec- Government contracts. It is just not good tion campaign contribution. We see the major enough to choose a supplier on price alone;, player in the communications industry with there also needs to be a design element. this sort of control over the Government of this country. It really annoys me that in this We want design courses in educational country people can be forced to join a union courses to be strengthened, not weakened. We and see that union decide to make a contri- want to encourage a separate test and certifi- bution to a political party even though chat cation centre to help improve quality levels. person may not support that party. This union We want to upgrade production engineeri.ng is holding the Government of the country to courses in our tertiary institutions. Our very ransom, which is a disgraceful state of affairs. new approach to the whole question of especially when we hear the Government talk producing things, to the whole question of how about human rights and true democracy. manufacturing industries operate, relates to the Not enough work is being done on the whole need for our tertiary institutions to upgrade question of offsets. There are nearly $4 bill ion- those courses centred on design quality or what worth of investment offsets in this State, and (83) 2626 2626[ASSEMBLY] this is growing. Industr is not aware of the ning Vale and especially at Woodmans Point. oustanding potential for offset contracts. I When ILDA made the land available there, would like to see the Government make indus- who would have thought it would be used so try more aware of just what is available and extensively by the shipbuilding industry? And how industry can do its bit to participate in this now the problem is that not enough land is field. available. This shows that we need foresight Manufacturing industries in other pants of and vision. We need to make industrial land the world have made vast changes to their op- available throughout the State. erations over the past three years. Countries Many industrial areas, particularly in the such as Japan, West Germany. Korea, and metropolitan area, need to be upgraded, be- Taiwan have adapted very quickly, they are working with new materials cause they are not the most pleasant places in and new pro- which to work or through which to drive. I duction techniques. When they reach a certain level would like to think we could upgrade some of of expertise they do not rest on their the older industrial laurels and say to themselves areas. I have worked in that they are now them and I know one naturally assumes that better than everyone else; instead they look to they are simply not pleasant places in which to take the next step. After the war Japan became work. But there is no reason why they cannot a large producer of steel and aluminium, but it be made a more pleasant environment in which then started to move out of those heavier to work. The new industrial parks being created processing operations and went into around the world do not look like our indus- specialising in more sophisticated areas. Japan trial areas. Although they have the same messy had the ability and the flexibility to change. industries, by placing them in more pleasant Here we tend to get to a certain level and environments everyone tends to keep their op- then rest on our laurels, thinking that what we erations cleaner. In Osborne Park a major at- have done is good enough. We have all the tempt was made to get rid of the effluent natural advantages: We have cheap energy and flowing into Herdsman Lake. It was necessary cheap transport, and plenty of natural re- for the authorities to backtrack the streams of sources and land. We must now educate our effluent to ascertain the source of the pollution. entrepreneurs and encourage them to acquire That is the first step. the skills, the desire, and the motivation to get into these international markets. We need to The second step is to get both the local auth- become more outward looking. Fortunately a ority and the local industry involved in making new breed of entrepreneurs are coming along these areas more pleasant and attractive. The who do regard the world as their marketplace. new industrial estate in Herdsman is a magnifi- They do not consider protection to be necess- cent example of what can be done. It is so good ary. They know that if they cannot be a step that now even office people are wanting to shift ahead of their competitors in other countries there;, it is good enough for office accommo- they do not deserve to be in the marketplace. dation. A number of changes must take place in this The defence industry is an extremely import- country, changes in attitudes by management. ant one. The Minister would have to agree that unions, and Government to see that we have the Opposition has always supported the the flexibility to take advantage of our Government's moves to bring as much as poss- opportunities and our natural assets. ible of that industry to WA; we have always Turning now to a more specific area of the assisted it to try to get more defence expendi- Minister's responsibility. I see the question of ture here and more defence bases here. the availability of industrial land to be terribly important if we are to promote industry. To The Opposition is concerned about the fail- promote industry we need to have a ready ure of this Government to win some of the supply of suitable land. The Minister might in- major con tracts such as the submarine con- dicate now whether the Industrial Lands Devel- tract. The Opposition was annoyed about that opment Authority comes under this legislation. Contract because, until the date it was announced that the State had lost it, the Mr Bryce: No. Government was still saying that Western Mr COURT: It remains sepiarate. Previous Australia was in the running for it. Of course, Governments went out of their way to establish industry knew a long time before that that we various industrial land projects, and we can were out of the running. I believe it would have point to the developments taking place at Can- been better for the Government to state pub- [Wednesday, 17 June 1987]162 2627 licly that we were not going to get the project the mining industry, and particularly in the and for it to say that, as we missed out on it. we goldmining industry. We should be concerned would be first in line for the next major project. about taking every opportunity that presents It is important that we obtain a major de- itself to expand industries in this State. fence project for this State. I was under the Indonesia is experiencing a huge expansion false impression that, when we did not obtain in a number of industries. I am aware that our the submarine contract, we would be a distinct diplomatic relations with that country are not possibility to obtain the frigate contract. Ship- very close. However, we should be getting our builders in this State are concerned that we will act together and attempting to become not obtain any of them. There has been talk of involved in its development. We are very close setting up a consortium to bid for the neighbours. It seems that this Government Williamtown facility. Apparently, whoever has does not understand the potential of some of, their bid for that facility accepted will win the these countries. frigate contract. I hope we do not go through another exercise of saying that we are in the It is not just a question of handing over pa- running for the frigate contract, all the time trol boats to these countries. I have never seen knowing that it will go to another State. people more proud than the Papua New I was surprised not to see the Premier or one Guineans who left yesterday, I think, to sail of his Ministers at the handing over of the first around the top end of Australia to take that two patrol boats to the Pacific island countries. boat back to their country. The Minister may say that he cannot be every- The thrust of where. However, I believe it was important for creating new export him to be there. At the first handing over of a opportunities should be through the private patrol boat to Papua New Guinea, Navy chiefs sector. That sector has a real drive to create spoke about the new frigates contract and who export opportunities. I attended an export sem- would get it. I was told that the Ministers who inar recently at which one of the most success- consider themselves in the running have been ful exporters in this State. Wayne Read, late of overseas or are still overseas actively working Solahart, told the seminar about his six "ups" with the sorts of people who could have an that he uses for good exporting. He said he has input into a consortium to obtain that contract. to get up-by that he means get to the market They were in the field attempting to obtain the places-meet up, stitch 'en up, don't give up, front running, just as South Australia presented load 'em up, back 'em up, and follow up. Ap- a very good case for being granted the submar- parently he used that formula to sell Solahart hot ine contract. We cannot afford to be com- water systems to many different countries. placent. We have to be sure that we are a step He told us how hard it was to sell the system to Japan for example. Apparently ahead of the other States all the time. that country placed many obstacles in his way. At the handing over of that Patrol boat to Papua New Guinea, I was told that the There has been a great deal of confusion Solomon Islands is now purchasing large fish- about the number of Government departments ing vessels from Australian Shipbuilding Indus- operating in the export field, creating much tries (WA) Pty Ltd. One of the ships is appar- duplication. Exim is involved in establishing ently a very large one-some 50 metres in itself worldwide: and DID has traditionally length. In other words, the patrol boats have performed the function of helping industry been the foot in the door for that company to groups to sell their products overseas. I want a win sales of a completely different kind. detailed explanation from the Minister about Apparently, the Solomon Islands' fishing in- what Government departments and corpor- dustry has huge potential. It is important for ations are involved in trying to encourage ex- this State to get in on the ground floor of that port activity. industry. The fishing industry in Vanuatu is Mr Bryce: It should be all of them: not one. also an extremely important one. When that country's patrol boat is handed over, we should Mr COURT: When the Minister says all of be keen to establish a dialogue with it about them. I suppose he is referring to the Common- other industries which might be of mutual wealth Government which is attempting to do interest to us. When the Government talks to its bit, and all of these little State departments the Papua New Guinean Foreign Minister which love to send an officer overseas on these about patrol boats, it should also talk about the "export kicks". As I said, the private sector growth Papua New Guinea is experiencing in should be organised to get itself involved. That 2628 2628ASSEMBLY]

should be done from this place. We do not need Mr Bryce: It is the same as about six or seven this fragmented approach currently used by other departments. There is absolutely nothing this Government. new in it at all. Mr COURT: I would like an explanation of IQuestions taken.I it. The whole idea was to rationalise the bodies and yet the powers of the body-they are wide- Sitting suspended froni 6.00 to 7.15 pmn ranging: the Minister can buy and sell land and Mr COURT: In the time remaining to mc I do weird and wonderful things-are being want to deal, among other things, wi th Tech- transferred to the Minister. So there is the new nology Park. I would like the Minister to give body, the corporate body for which the Minis- us some indication of how much money has ter is responsible, but it is not subject to the been spent at Technology Park, what stage the Fi nancial and Administration Audit Act. That facilities are at. and what the tenant mix is. corporate body will not be subject to the same Can he tell us whether the park will be a profit- review which is in the Act under section 45. It able venture from a commercial point of view, will be difficult to define those functions which or whether it will cost a lot of money? I want an are delegated by the Minister to the department indication of the rental income and the leases or to the corporate body. so we can see how the project is shaping up. Perhaps the Minister will be able to explain why it is necessary when the department is es- I asked a question as to why the accounts for tablished in effect to retain the old corporate the Technology Development Authority, the body. It will certainly be difficult to define how directorate, and the trust fund had been those functions will be delegated. delayed, and I got an explanation. However. when legislation is before the House which asks I will take this matter further during the us to combine these bodies into a new body it is Committee stage because it seems unusual to important that we have an up-to-date picture of me and it certainly seems unnecessary. I do not its financial position. We tend to be pretty know whether there is anything sinister in the slaphappy in this Parliament when we are deal- Minister wanting to keep those corporate ing with the taxpayers' funds. We have seen powers under the old legislation. that many times in recent years. When a busi- Mr Bryce: You possibly did not hear what I ness is taken over or there is a merger the nor- said. There are many departments of Govern- mal practice is for all the information to be laid ment of which for many years the Minister has on the table so we know where we stand. I have been the body corporate. There is nothing asked some questions recently about the Tech- unique, strange or different about that. We nology Development Fund and how much has abandoned the concept of the independent been outlaid and to how many businesses. We authority which had a board that was the body should have a detailed report on the fund and corporate, and we returned to the concept of a whether it is having problems with bad debts. department under the Public Service. I could We need a clear financial picture of where we give you a list of the departments, not all, but are going. some of them. The one-hour debate makes it difficult to Mr COURT: The Minister is quite right. The cover a wide range of issues in relation to this Government has turned from the authority to legislation. I asked the Leader of the House if!I this new department but it still has the old could get an extension of time. I am not going authority. to take it, but it is difficult to properly cover Mr Bryce: No. the issues in one hour. The point I will have to Mr COURT: Yes. Under clause 9 it is simply take further in the Committee stage is that this transferred to the Minister, so instead of legislation vests the corporate identity and having the previous people looking after it the functions of the Technology Development power now goes to the Minister. The Minister Authority to the Minister and the Minister has is in charge of the department and he is also in power to delegate those functions to the depart- charge of the old corporate body. meni. That means the corporate functions which now come under control Mr Bryce: It is all in a name. It was called an of the Minister "'authority" and which he can delegate to people, will not be but it is part of the departmental subject to the Financial Administration and structure. Audit Act because schedule two of this Bill Mr COURT: All power in the authority is takes them away. still there. It is like the Exini legislation. [Wednesday, 17 June 1987]162 2629

Mr Bryce: No. it is not. The depressed world market prices of which the Minister spoke in his second reading speech Mr COURT: The Minister is right but we have made Australia diversify into value-added ended up with the old and the new Exim legis- activities-that is, activities beyond what we lation, would normally have used economically in re- The operations and the performance of the spect of our wool and mining industries. The Government in this industry and technology Minister went on to mention in his second area since it came to power have been poor. I reading speech that the local manufacturing in- believe the Minister has received the wrong dustries which for so long depended on supply- advice; he has been attracted to academics and ing the resource and agricultural sectors are professionals and the like, who may have a lot now realising the importance of improved of good ideas but he has not given them a quality, design, better management practices, direction in which to go. They have no under- better work practices. state-of-the-ant equip- standing of the commercial pressures which ment and an aggressive marketing campaign exist in the real world and they tend to run into beyond the State's boundaries. We know that difficulties and resign. That is why we have to be true and I do not disagree with it. seen all the different people trying to revamp It seems rather a shame to me that there was this structure and people coming and going. not some added impetus from the Govern- We have missed the industry boat in recent ment, and 1 do not criticise the Minister for this. I think the fact that this Bill was not years. We have failed to adapt to the rapid that state-of- change that has been taking place around us. consolidated at the time meant the-art technology was not used in industry, for MR LIGHTFOOT (Murchison-Eyre) [7.25 instance the nickel industry, where the townsite pml: The Minister may correct me if I am of Leinster suffered so sadly last year. Had wrong, but I understand that this Bill paves the there been a measure of technology-that is, way for the consolidation of the Department of beyond the ability that the nickel industry at Industrial Development, the Technology De- the time to mine concentrate and reduce to velopment Authority, the Science. Industry and nicket matt the produce from Leinster and Technology Council and the Technology other pants of WA-that township which Directorate. Those four departments will be comprised approximately 1 300 people last consolidated into one department. I do not dis- year would not now be down 1o 125 or there- agree with that but my contribution tonight abouts. will largely centre around the contribution that Had some form of technology been in place the consolidation of those authorities would and this Government offered the assistance make to the goldfields and to the mining indus- necessary, together with its Federal counter- try generally. part. it is quite likely that Leinster would still I do not disagree with the motive behind the be thriving today. This situation does not apply legislation and I think in all fairness that the only to nickel, which in the past has been a Minister is very sincere in what he is trying to great export earnier for Western Australia. Pro- achieve in respect of this Bill. I will paraphrase duction has diminished quite considerably, and to a degree the words of my colleague, the the percentage of export income has reduced member for Nedlands. I think we have missed dramatically. That town would have the international boat and that probably is survived-not merely by concentrating the reflected in our rather high inflation rate and production at the mine-had there been the our high interest rates. It is either get wise and technology to reduce the production of concen- get with technology or get right out altogether. trate; not just to nickel matt but refined nickel Australia is finding itself unable to compete on in its many forms; nickel powder, nickel rods, the world market because we do not have the nickel sheets and even alloys. This industry has cheap labour enjoyed by other countries, such been lost to the State. If nickel was used, it was as South Africa. Brazil and India. It is essential used in insignificant proportions. that we use the utmost state-of-the-ant equip- If the nickel industry is brought to fruition. ment in respect of technology. As that affects this State would be very wealthy indeed. It is the mining industry, with which I am vitally up to the State Government and its Federal concerned from both an electoral and a pro- counterpart to encourage the introduction of fessional point of view, there are aspects of the the necessary technology to enable downstream Bill that I would like to discuss in more detail processing to take place in the future. The Fed- during the Committee stage. eral Government must offer the taxation incen- 2630 2630[ASSEM BLYJ lives; and deregulation needed to give us a com- I reiterate that with some assistance from the petitive edge. It is no good having the tech- Government. with the application of the latest nology if the cost of the end-product is greater in high technology, and with the encourage- than that of our partners, particularly Canada ment of development work going on at the mo- in the case of n ickel. ment Leinster should reopen. I welcome this Bill if only for the incentive that it may give to While I applaud the Minister for the aptitude the owners of that mine. he has shown in bringing a Bill like this before the House, I would like to hear what other I refer to the goidmining industry and the hi- incentives, other than documentation, the Min- tech application and assistance the Govern- ister has in mind to implant this technology in ment could give, particularly as the Minister Western Australia, particularly that pertaining has a preoccupation with this industry. I ap- to the vital mining industry. plaud the attitude adopted by the Minister to this Bill anid its extension into practicalities. The town of Leinster does not need just tech- nology to reopen. When I was in that town the The gold industry does not employ a high week before last, there was development work degree of technology. It is largely a quarrying going on at the mine so there is hope that industry where we use a format of solutions Leinster might reopen. I trust that when it that treat friable non-refractory gold ore. Be- does, we will compete not just as a quarry but cause of the aptitude that the ore has to being as a hi-tech mine producing hi-tech products treated, we can recover as low as 0.4 per cent of made from the element they mine. In order to a gram. That is an extraordinarily low grade. Members may say we do not need high tech- do that, the mine needs not only the technology nology to proposed and dreamed of by the Minister but make a recovery greater than that also other Government assistance, for instance. because it is probably the lowest grade of gold deregulatian of moad and rail transport recovered in the world. The end product does and need the consideration of this Government so connection of SEC power. That in itself could we can enhance the earn ins capacity of the in- be an exercise in hi-tech reticulation of elec- dustry in this State. I speak particularly of the tricity over wide areas. application of high technology to the gold I understand that in South Africa there is a end product-the bullion or refined gold that direct-current form of electricity conveyance comes predominantly from the eastern and that goes thousands of kilometres-contrary to north eastern goldfields. what I always thought about direct current-at I see no reason why, given the right incen- a considerable saving to that of alternating cur- tives, given the right tax structures and given rent. We may be able to copy that technology the genuine support of this Government, that and utilise it to the benefit of the people in the instead of exporting gold bars needed to pay off outback, part icularly in My electorate. our massive deficit-a third world deficit ap- The tax incentives--although they have proaching $1 10 billion-those bars should not nothing to do with technology-are vitally be exported in the form of a commodity that needed to get Leinster going again. The tax currently earns in excess of $625 an ounce. I incentive works very well for gold and:[ see no am not knocking that. It is a fantastic price but reason why that same consideration should not gold could be exported in the form of chains or be given to other mining areas where they are jewellery-l can never understand why this struggling. It may well be that if the nickel in- State does not lead the world in that area-or dustry had the same company-free tax status in the form of hi-tech electronics where gold, that gold does, we would also see a boom in the because of its non-corrosive properties and its nickel industry, matching the projected $1.8 properties of conductivity, is very useful. I can billion that the gold industry will earn during see no reason that we should not have an elec- the next fiscal year. tronics industry established here. There are videorecorders; and audio equipment which use We also need to replace the extraordinarily gold. I see no reason why the raw material high cost of fuel brought about by the 63c in mined and refined here should not be exported the dollar that currently goes into State and as a hi-tech product. It is merely going out in Federal coffers. It is crippling the industry and gold bar form to central banks throughout the when analysed. it is quite obviously a tax on world or to countries that manufacture vast exports. Australia is one of the few countries in quantities of jewellery, such as Italy, India and the world where Federal and State Govern- Asia. and to other countries that manufacture ments tax exports. coins. [Wednesday, 17 June 1987] 232631

That leads me into the success story of the Given the edge of the taxation incentive I do coins which, to some degree, was the initiative not see why we cannot compete with the world of this Government. The Nugget coins which and export our gold in that form. We could have been so successful and of which I am the adapt technology to alloy the gold in Australia proud owner of a couple of proof sets. are simi- instead of it being exported overseas for that lar to the so-called Hannan's dollar which was treatment. It could be alloyed in its various struck by the Kalgoorlie Chamber of Com- percentages of gold-nine. M4 18, and 20. merce in the mid-1 970s. As a result of the fluc- Twenty-four carat gold being pure gold. By the tuating and uncertain gold prices at that time by. I could never understand why the law al- sales of that coin did not take off. Had the coin lows nine carat gold, which contains a little been struck in the early l980s it may well have over one-third gold, to be called gold. Perhaps been a different story. It is another aspect of at some time in the future we may need to look exporting gold coupled to the high technology at protecting the industry so that gold can be we could use. called gold only when it is 100 per cent pure. The other industry about which I am con- Instead of bars of gold being exported the cerned and which earns this State and nation gold should be exported in a more sophisti- multi-million dollars a year is the iron ore in- cated form that would earn more money for dustry.' Once again, we have seen very little this country. Gold to the value of $1.8 billion is application of anything that could be described expected to be exported in the next fiscal year. as high technology, unless it is with respect to given that the gold price remains the same; that some of the heavy machinery that is used in the is. $A625 an ounce. industry. I refer to another aspect of gold which does Mr Bryce: There are processing systems, not require a considerable input of high tech- financial control systems and other systems. nology. I have always wondered why gold in Certainly the sensory gear involved in varying forms, such as bars, medals or other measuring how much they are picking up each appropriate shapes, is not sold at the Perth In- time is another example. There are heaps of ternational Airport or the Kalgoorlie Airport. It examples. is an industry outside the ambit of this Bill so I Mr LIGHTFOOT: On reflection, the Minis- will not dwell on it. I have always been amazed ter is quite right. I was thinking more of the that that has never been considered and it may export of the ore and applying my contribution be. pardon the pun, a goldmine. to the export of that commodity, when we should utilise technology to enable us to export Other gold products could be exported from something other than 63 per cent Fe. There are. Australia-and remember, we have a tax-free as the Minister correctly said, many examples status on gold at company level. Of course, the of the use of technology in the iron ore indus- goldmining industry contributes millions of try. but not in the area I want to discuss. dollars to the nation's coffers by way of indirect taxes other than company taxes, share trading, As every schoolchild in this State would pay-as-you-earn taxes, excise taxes, fuel taxes. know, we export millions of tonnes of iron ore and taxes on machinery which is used in the every year and I think it is exported exclusively goldmining industry. It has a flow-on effect from the Pilbara now. The iron ore is exported throughout the economy. in the form of 63 per cent Fe, or thereabouts. It may be 65 per cent. It is a never-ending source It could well be that the so-called paper gold of amazement to me that we can export from which the Buddhists and the Hindus use-I do this nation and this State to Japan and to other not know to what degree, but I believe it places a commodity that is only 63 per cent amounts to hundreds of thousands of ounces a iron. I am pleased to hear of Mr Lang year-could be exported. I do not know of any- Hancock's marvellous achievement in at last one in this country who is exporting so-called getting McCamey's Monster off the ground- paper gold. Gold theoretically is able to be metaphorically speaking-after years of beaten to an atom's thickness. That is another tenaciously supporting the project; it tells property of gold and it gives the appearance of members something about this great man. gold being able to float on water-it is actually We are exporting a commodity which has a suspended by the surface tension of the fluid. 26 per cent or 27 per cent wastage, and the coal Gold can be beaten out to an incredible thin- to fire the furnaces in the treatment of the ore ness. is also transported to Japan. The flux that is 2632 2632[ASSEMBLY)

needed is also transported to Japan. although Mr LIGHTFOOT: That may not apply to the Japan is sufficient to some degree in coal and Minister. Some aspects of the Bill should be flux. We cannot compete, yet we have all the scrutinised tonight. I intend to speak on some raw materials in this country. of them at the Committee stage. There appears to be some confusion between the marketing cent Fe and pays the Japan imports 63 per support roles of Exim and the new department. freight on the waste and also imports coal and how many indus- I would like the Minister to explain that aspect puts up with goodness knows when his time comes. trial problems, particularly in the east of Australia, and it still competes on the world Mr Court: They all like running from Exim. market. There arc also industrial problems in Western Australia, but they are not confined Mr Bryce: There is a distinct difference. only to this State. We cannot compete and Every agency in this State should have an ex- there is something radically wrong with the port ethos. It should not be left to the export- mining industry, In fact, we should be import arm of Exi m. exporting everything we can in terms of iron Several members interjected. Ore. Mr LIGHTFOOT: The Minister could We should also be exporting forms of iron probably help himself and many other people if that return us an amount greater than the $40- he sold Exim off. I would like him to clarify at odd a tonne we receive for iron ore at the mo- the appropriate time the corporate identity and ment. We should be exporting sponge iron the functions of that Technology Development which has been spoken about for a decade but Authority, together with his power to delegate is yet to come to fruition. We should also be those functions within the department. That is exporting pellet ised iron ore, which is a higher- a significant aspect of the Bill which will have grade iron. Perhaps because of lack of taxation some comfort for the private sector. incentives the pellet ised plant has closed down. The new department should have sufficient Mrs Buchanan: That is not quite correct. The resources to carry out its functions effectively. cost of fuel was the main reason it closed down. For example, the operation of technology parks Mr LIGHTFOOT: The Government should and the mounting of trade shows, overseas remove the 63 per cent tax on fuel if that is visits, and so on must be covered. Due to other what has caused the industry to close down. commitments in this House I did not study thai The Government should remove the taxes and section of the Bill; that may have escaped me. I excise. The member knows that throughout the applaud the initiative shown, and trust that it State the Government takes 63c per dollar on will not be just a matter of documentation, and fuel. If we remove that tax perhaps we can that we wilt see some great advances in West- compete with other countries. Either way, it is ern Australia. Heaven knows, we need them. a lack of taxation incentive and that is a fact. Perhaps at long last this may be the precipitating factor. The high technology that the Minister will speak about later in this debate is desperately MR COWAN (Merredin-Lecader of the needed in the mining industry. I have National Party) [7.45 pm]: The National Party mentioned the three main areas because they accepts the establishment of this Technology are significant to this State. Perhaps we do Development Authority. However, we are need the railway system that was mooted a dec- really returning to the status quo. Only three ade or so ago to bring coal from the Eastern years ago the technology arm was separated, or States to Western Australia. special emphasis was given to technology de- velopment by establishing a separate authority Perhaps we need state of the art high-tech gas and removing it from the Department of Indus- reduction for iron in the Pilbara. The gas is trial Development. there:. the iron is there. Where is the will? Where is the incentive? Would it not be mar- At the risk of being somewhat cynical, we vellous if, instead of exporting rock and all that wonder whether it really was at all necessary to raw material, we were able to export steel rods, separate the functions on the technical side of steel joists, and even pig iron! industry from industry itself. We do not doubt The application of high technology is limit- for one moment the need for a greater degree of impetus to technology. As a primary producer I less. can accept that there has been too heavy a re- Several members interjected. liance on primary industry, not only in this [Wednesday. 17 June 1987] 232633

State but also in the whale of Australia-but in which are to be amalgamated. It wil provide a this State more than any other, with the poss- group of people able to operate as links be- ible exception of Queensland. tween the Government and industry, and again We all recognise the need for special empha- between the industries themselves, so that there sis to be placed on the development of tech- can be some interchange or exchange of knowl- nology in industry. I do not differentiate by edge and perhaps a better use and understand- using the term "highi technology". We should ng of technological development in industry. describe it as technology in industry. There is no question that Western Australia It is interesting that after three years of sep- must start seeking value-added manufacturing, aration, the Government is now preparing to particularly of its primary products. I know it integrate those functions again. We accept that. will be expensive; it has been tried in the past Initially we felt there was no great need for a and found wanting. It may well be that the use distinct separation. We accept the need for of new technology will be the basis of a break- greater emphasis on technology and the intro- through which will allow us to sell many of our duction of technology in Western Australia. No primary products on a value-added basis. matter where it is applied, whether in the farm- I am also interested in the corporate function ing industry, the mining industry, agriculture, of the new department. It does interest me that or manufacturing-it does not matter-there is now the department is going to be outside the a need. That was reinforced on a recent trip I auspices of all the reporting that is required had the privilege to take to Japan, where tech- under the Financial Administration and Audit nology is an integral pant of every industry. In Act. I accept that, but would like the Minister fact that is what Japan survives on, because it to explain further. When he talked about re- has to buy all its raw materials. The only raw taining the corporate body or the corporate material in Japan is people, and it manages to seam, I understand that is to be a power to be utilise them very well. used by the Minister. Is the department going Mr Court: They have some pretty protected to be responsible or have to answer to the Com- farmers there. missioner for Corporate Affairs if it acts as a Mr COWAN: corporate body? I would like to hear from the They certainly do. I would not Minister how he establishes the structure of mind being able to get into that. this Organisation making use of its corporatism. I would like to comment on one or two areas on behalf of the National Party. As the Minis-, Mr Court: The department itself still comes ter said by way of interjection, it is not at all under the Financial Administration and Audit unusual for the Government to establish this Act, but the corporate body does not. body under the Public Service Act. I am very Mr Bryce: But the corporate body does not, pleased to 'see that the Minister has retained the in that same context, With any of the other six right to a contractual system of employment. or seven M in isters. While I am not knowledgeable on the type of Mr COWAN: That is right, but in not doing personnel the Minister will want to bring to so will it be responsible to the Commissioner that department, lie will be able to secure the for Corporate Affairs or to the Minister only? services of people with the necessary expertise That is the question, because we see that as by way of a contractual system rather than being very important with regard to the ac- having them brought into the public service. I countability of this newly amalgamated body. would like the Minister to comment on how The National Party accepts the amalga- much emphasis will be placed on the terms of mation; we do accept that there is a need for employment for the principal officers within the coordination of Government and industry, the newly-estabi1shed department. I suspect or industry and industry, but we feel particu- that apart from administrative people, the ma- larly strongly about the Government's role. jority Of People with a high level of expertise Government is a $3.5 billion business in this will be employed on the basis of a contractual State alone, so it is necessary for us to have system. I am pleased to see that mentioned in organisations, departments, or whatever we the Minister's second reading speech. like to call them, which can make full use of the There is no question that there is a need for expertise to make the most of the money that coordination between Government and indus- the taxpayer invests in Government. That also try. This legislation will I hope establish a de- facilitates a means by which industry can get partment. and the basis of the department is the maximum possible benefit in areas of new already there with the four different bodies markets, exports, and so on. 2634 2634[ASSEMBLY]

We are somewhat cynical, I guess, because ments but about all previous Governments in three or four years ago this Minister split the this State over the last 20 or 30 years in terms department and now he is bringing it back of their approach to industrial development. together again. I think that requires a more detailed explanation than was given in the It surprised me somewhat when we Minister's second reading speech. investigated the matter and discovered that the name and the structure of the Department of The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! The level Industrial Development has changed seven or of background chatter is most unfair to the eight times in the last 13 years. It has not Hansard reporter, who does an excellent job. always been the subject of legislation, by any The only voice I need to hear in this Chamber means, and there are some very sound reasons is that of the Leader of the National Party for that, If there is one agency of Government while he is on his feet. Should other members that ought to respond to the changing nature of wish to have private meetings, there is plenty of the demands in the marketplace, then this is room in the passegeways and some of us even the agency. 1 make no apology for this change have offices here which those members are wel- and I think members opposite understand that come to use. I do not even need to hear from what we are doing tonight may well be the the Minister. subject of adjustment and fine-tuning in three or four years' lime, whoever happens to be the Mr COWAN: The National Party accepts Government of the day or the Minister of the this legislation but requests the Minister in his day. I confidently predict that those sorts of response to explain to us why, the department adjustments and changes with this sort of having had a parting of the ways four years ago. agency will recur. there is now a need for this amalgamation. We would like a more detailed explanation about The simplest and fairest way of my the conditions of employment under which explaining to the Leader of the National Party most of the people with the ex pert knowledge about the question of our decision four years will be brought into this proposed department. ago to establish new agencies alongside the De- Perhaps the Minister could give an example of partment of industrial Development and now where he sees this department applying itself to to bring them back together again is based ensure this country does produce those value- upon the very fundamental lack of skills that added goods, particularly in relation to the pri- existed in this area within that old department. mary industries which are so abundantly avail- When the previous Government in 1980 split able in Western Australia. I ask the Minister to the Department of industrial Development. comment atso on the controls that will be which was the old department, it did so on a exercised, either through the Commissioner for horizontal basis and took all the engineers and Corporate Affairs or under any other Statute, many of the senior policy officers, and put when the department moves outside its execu- them into the Department of Resources Devel- tive and administrative role and takes on its opment. What was left was still called the De- corporate function. partment of Industrial Development and that department, for a period of three years. became If the Minister is prepared to give those the department of -i ndust rial soci al welfa re". answers satisfactorily. I assure himi of the National Party's support. When I became Minister in February 1983. 1 tell the Leader of the National Party and the MR BRYCE (Ascot - Minister for Industry member for Nedlands quite sincerely and and Technology) [8.05 pm]: i thank the mem- seriously that that department was not wholly bers for Nedlands and Murchison-Eyre and the but very largely occupied with the traumas of Leader of the National Party for their indi- Bunbury Foods, the Manjimup cannery, the cations of support for the Bill and for their abattoirs and Hunts Cannery in Albany, and contributions to the second reading debate. then at the very latest stage the tractor phenom- enon in the Merredin district of the wheat-belt. There is some rather interesting and basic Members would scarcely believe the number of candour I would like to bring to the debate to officers whose daily routine was dominated by respond to some of the very genuine questions the tasks associated with making the financial that have been raised. I do not seek to criticise assessments to justify Government assistance previous Governments, and I preface my com- to those ailing companies. By saying that, I do ments by emphasising that I am not talking not seek to poke any sort of fun at any previous about previous conservative coalition Govern- Government. [Wednesday, 17 June 1987])63 2635

Mr Cowan: When they make the assessment rection and is now occupying much the same they are then subject to Treasury examination water as the patrol boats, It is appropriate to and it is found to be wrong. bring the patrol boats and personnel, who Mr BRYCE: Some of those decisions were never exceeded more than 30, back on board made by Governments of all complexions with the aircraft carrier with a consolidated sense of a genuine interest aimed at regional develop- direction and hardware to do the job. ment. That is a mixture of fact and analogy, but I Mr Cowan: I am not criticising previous have had a great deal of difficulty trying to Governments - you are quite right. secure the appropriate people to do this job in Mr BRYCE- But there was only one individ- Western Australia. If the Leader of the ual in the Department of Industrial Develop-- National Party assumed my ministerial ment in 1983 who understood responsibilities tomorrow he would find the anything about most serious disability facing the State at the electronics - only one out of a complement of about 130. After I had been the Minister for moment is the dearth of appropriately quali- fled people to pick up the high technology chal- only six weeks - maybe it is my bad style or the wrong eau de cologne, but I am prepared to lenge in commerce, banking, scientific re- take all the responsibility-and after I had sat search, and Government- people in those down with the department fields who can cross-fertilise ideas with one and explained that another. I have the newly-elected Government in 1983 had a no hesitation in spelling that different Set Of priorities in terms of the im- out as the State's biggest challenge in the next portance we attached to the encouragement of decade, it is to produce a supply of people in advanced tech nology-based industries, one of those fields. If I could convince the Minister the most senior officers in the department re- for Budget Management, I make no bones signed. He retired prematurly-there was no about the fact that I would acquire 30 or 40 conflict with me personally. He was terribly people from the west coast of the United States uncomfortable with this new policy and went or Europe to fill key positions- out of his way, in a ver public way in the Mr Court: In Government? context of the department, to explain to the department that the new direction was some- Mr BRYCE: Yes. thing he simply could not handle. Mr Court: Why bring 30 from the west coast That was his decision. [ am trying to explain of the US? this to members so they can understand that the culture of the old organ isaion was rooted Mr BRYCE: The member for Nedlands does in the I1950s. That is where its base was, and I not understand. If he were in my position he was faced with a decision in early 1983 to try to would find out- change the structure and culture of a very Mr Court: I would bring them across to the proudly established old department or in a private sector, not the Government. short time establish some groups which could bring together expertise quickly to act where Mr BRYCE: I would not care if they spent a the old department could not act. good deal of their time in the private, aca- demic. or Government sectors. The member The analogy I have drawn on a number of for Nedlands was still having difficulty tonight occasions, because this question has been put shrugging off his political inheritance. He said to me outside Parliament, was of an aircraft he was going to roast the Government in cer- carrier which cakes a long time and a lot of lain areas with which he disagreed, and give energy and resources to change direction. A credit where it was due. His one-hour contri- goad deal of distance is covered in that time. I bution ran out before he was able to throw the made the decision in 1983, 1 believe in the best bouquets across the Chamber. I was waiting. interests of the State, to put patrol boats into Nevertheless I will not be uncharitable and the water alongside the aircraft carrier to seek throw arrows back, because I sincerely believe particular targets, and they did that job ex- there has been a substantial shift in thinking in tremely well. this area among members of all political parties Four years later as a result of the review in this State over the last four or five years. I process we undertook to do after five years in believe many members opposite are taking a the original Act, we have come to the con- serious interest in an area which was once the clusion that the aircraft carrier has, with a lot reason and cause for my suffering a good deal of urging and restructuring within, changed di- of ridicule. I am finding it mildly satisfying that 2636 2636ASSEMBLY] ibis is now happening. I have had to accept the Mr BRYCE: That is the point: one cannot criticism inside my own organisation, too, but I have both. Experience has demonstrated that have been happy to cop that. the moment we have boom conditions for min- erals and Brains and a sudden upturn in com- We are dealing with something which has a modity prices-I am devastated to admit it- medium to long-term time frame. Many things we would hear the click in heads by the thou- the We are doing will not produce results like sands as the mind set shifted back to where it good old-fashioned new iron ore mine or baux- was in the I1960s and 1970s when the belief was ite mine did within a year or two. Some of the that all we had to do was ensure wonderful programmes we have instigated will produce prosperity in the agricultural or mining indus- the goods for Governments of a different com- tries and we would be okay. plexion many years down the track. We know we are laying foundations. Mr Cowan: That has passed. It will not apply now because people have been down that path. Let me give an example. There is scarcely a Even now in industries where there is some week goes by when I am not invited to open buoyancy and commodity prices are good, a two or three information technology-related greater effort is being put into research and premises and companies in this State. There development and technology improvement are about 530 small information technology than before. The wool industry is a good companies in Western Australia and they em- example. You have to accept that. People have ploy between 6 000 and 7 000 people. It is part been down that path. of a quiet revolution. If somebody said, "Here is a project and it will employ 7 000 people, Mr BRYCE: I was educated with enough en- and we will put it together in the space of two gineers not to share the confidence of the mem- years", that would arrest a massive amount of ber. attention. I have got past the stage where I I can recall sitting around a breakfast table in worry about it a great deal because it is being 1983 with 20 of this State's leading mineral understood that many of these things are extraction engineers. I spoke to them about the quietly slipping into place over a period of tech nologi cal spi n-off of thei r m in ing experti se. years. I mentioned the importance of our beginning Mr Court: You gave the analogy of the patrol to think about the systems and methodologies boats going over the side. When you did the which are the by-products associated with their second revamp in 1984, was that the lifeboats efforts in the mining industry as marketable going over the side? commodities overseas. They yawned with dis- interest. If we have to compare for attraction Mir BRYCE: No. There was no second re- the idea of digging a big hole to produce vastly vamp. I think the member for Nedlands is be- increased tonnages with the prospect of looking ing uncharitable. In the 1984 exercise we de- at somet hing com pl icated such as market ing an cided to make the personnel on the aircraft intelligent process control system overseas, carrier Fitter and to refit the carrier. A change time and again the company structure with a of direction occurred subsequent to that. I dominance of engineers will lead us back to make no apology for the change of direction. It putting our energies and efforts into digging a might sound rather extraordinary for a Minis- bigger hole. They love it; and that is what ter to say this, but I have said it in many public worr ies me. I am not saying that I hafve a crys- forums and it may be somewhat insensitive to tal ball and I cannot prove it. someone like the member for Murchison-Eyre, Mr Cowan: Neither have I and I still say you but I genuinely believe in the State's long-term can't. industrial future. Mr Court: Would you wish the current agri- One of the worst things that could happen cultural prices on anyone? suddenly tomorrow would be a sharp upturn in commodity prices. The Treasurer would love Mr BRYCE: No. I would dearly love to see it- us achieve the change in direction and the men- tality that would support diversification to Mr Cowan: So would I! produce cream three inches thick on the top of Mr BRYCE: Many members would think the agricultural sector's and the mining sector's that in the short term it was the best thing we income again. My real concern is that, if we return to those days, suddenly could possibly experience- as a result of somebody's magic wand the mind set would Mr Cowan: You can have both. shift and people would think again that the [Wednesday, 17 June 1987J 263763 economic downturn was simply a temporary Mr BRYCE: I fully intend to. If I remain in phenomenon and they really did not need to my job long enough and I see the development change their ways in respect of the priority that of the Technology Park through for a number needs to be given to developing people with of years. I hope to have that pleasure. special skills, expenditures on R and D. mar- Mr Court: Why did you spend nights in this keting and the need for an '*export ethos" Parliament criticising our pri vatisation pal icy? across the country. 1 believe they would slip Now you like it. back into the route they have comfortably trav- elled for years, I will not be dogmatic about Mr BRYCE: It was the Opposition's that: I have a genuine concern. selection of agencies. It was going to sell off the power authority and Telecom and those sorts Mr Court: What about the example I gave of of authorities. What is a creature in the Oppo- the floriculture industry which sells its flowers sition organisation that is not exactly wet or at a certain price? A couple of years ago that not exactly dry? A typical member of the Lib- industry did not make any money. It has learnt eral Party. how, using technology, to grow its products cheaper with prices staying the same. The in- The 12 incubators are full and there are use- dustry has used technology and its ful examples of companies which have already entrepreneurial skills to achieve that. left the incubators and gone to other parts of the Technology Park and other industry centres Mr BRYCE: That is a classic example of a in our State. I am not sure of the number, but I new industry. I am very attracted to and full of guess that, of the 12, probably four or five. have admiration for it. I have spent much of my left the incubators and established larger organ- time looking at it and I might retire into the isations in other parts of the city. middle of it; that is how much I love it. I think Companies in the enterprise units have that industry is doing a superb job. moved to a position of being able to purchase Mr Court: Have you done a deal with the land in their own right. Delta West Ltd was the member for Darling Range? first company to purchase its own block of land and to establish its own headquarters. It is a Mr BRYCE: That is getting a bit below the classic example of a company established in the belt. Technology Park to pursue not only profits in its own right but also a working relationship The mnember for Nedlands asked me to refer between the Technology Park and the academic to the Technology Park. Cabinet is currently institution adjacent to it. Delta West has two contemplating the Government's commitment senior pharmacists who actually lecture at the to the second and final element of its funding Curtin University of Technology. It also re- for the Technology Park- That investment ceives students from the University of Tech- would involve a total of about $10 million or nology on a training development basis. It is $12 million. It is our intention that the Tech- precisely for that sort of interaction between nology Park will not involve more than 20 per important companies involved in R and D cent of Government outlays in respect of devel- work and the training of key people from aca- opment costs. We expect there wall be about an demic institutions that the Technology Park 80:20 percent mix when the park is developed. was set up in the first place. Other companies At the present time it is about 28:72 per cent in are working with the campus. terms of the actual commitment to develop in- of the Opposition who dividual blocks and in some of the Govern- The three members ment's involvement. contributed to the debate raised the question of the corporate power of the Minister. [ draw the Future Ministers for industrial development Leader of the National Party's attention to will make a decision to sell off some of the page 4 of the Bill which spells out those powers. enterprise units and some of the other areas in That is the sort of corporate power definition which the Government has actually invested- that is enjoyed by the Minister for Education, not so much the incubator units, but certainly the Minister for Health, the Minister for Lands, the enterprise units. That money will be and the Minister for Fisheries. We are also returned to the taxpayer. I asUre members that giving serious consideration to giving the same there will be a handsome profit in the power to the Minister for Agriculture because transaction in years to come. certain things can happen for the benefit of agriculture. The Building Management Auth- Mr Court: Are you going to privatise? oniLy is another example. 2638 2638ASSEM BLY]

I draw the member for Nedlands' attention The biggest mining organisations in this to page 12. clause 34 of the Bill which has what country, perhaps the biggest two or three, are looks like a schedule under it hut which is not a now starting to change their thinking in respect schedule. It is spelt out in that clause at about of downstream processing. Many of them have tine 28 how the powers and functions of the obligations to the State, through agreements authority arc moved across to the department, which went through this House 20 or mare not to the Minister. years ago. to engage in downstream processing by way of investment-to follow-on as a result Mr Lightfoo; You have ultimate power. of the obligations that grow from having taken Mr BRYCE: Yes, that is right, the Minister the ore from the ground. We have all thought in has ultimate power and responsibility. The terms of firstly, jumbo steel mills and, sec- other speakers in the debate raised the question ondly. steel mills and perhaps small specialised of the powers and functions of the authority. I steel mills from the iron ore companies. In the am drawing their attention to the fact that by last few days the Minister for Minerals and virtue of that line it can be seen that these Energy has been dealing with a number of powers and functions will be transferred to the amendments to those agreements with a num- department. ber of large companies. It is a matter of con- siderable excitement to us at this stage of our The member for Murchison-Eyre raised a State's economic growth that these large cor- question about the relationship between new or porate citizens are thinking seriously of making advanced technology and the mining industry. a deliberate investment in the new and emerg- I am well aware of the application of the new ing fields of technology rather than thinking technology to the mineral industry in this State that iron ore means simply steel mills. and I know how important it has been in the At a meeting of the scientific board of one of production process and, more importantly, in these large organisations recently it was the exploration process. There are plenty of pointed out to me that the Japanese are likely examples of ibis. It is with a great deal of en- to close down another four or five of their steel thusiasm and interest that I await the change in mills. thinking at a senior level of many large companies in this State. I draw members' at- Mr Lightfoot: That is largely because of de- tention to a couple of hopeful signs. pleted tonnage. There is a high cost factor in Japanese production but it is now well below A small number of very worthwhile 100 million tonnes a year whereas two or three companies have been spawned in the last year years ago they were well over that figure. or so in this State, whose task from the point of view of their own objectives is to market Mr BRYCE: The very large mining around this country and overseas some of the companies in this country are very well aware most remarkable systems developed in the of the medium to long-term future of the explo- world, combining knowledge of geology, com- ration and export of some of the traditional puting and software, particularly as far as ex- ores and they are beginning to make medium to ploration is concerned. It is absolutely extra- long-term plans for developing their own in- ordinary. A host of other companies will be vestments in other areas. CRA for example working in that field, companies of which we probably has the biggest single portfolio of de- can be very proud. They willt not provide all the velopment in biotechnology in this country. I jobs we are seeking as a community by any do not mean the old biotechnology but the new means but, we can be absolutely certain that a research and development-based endeavours to growing number of small companies wvill achieve breakthroughs with the new emerge in that field. biotechnology. It is very important from the State's point of view. I am not breaching any I will not say a great deal about confidence-I will not mention names-when biotechnology as it relates to mining; it will I say that one of those three very large organis- become increasingly important to mining but ations is currently negotiating with the Tech- not so much to Australia where we have such nology Development Authority to establish a vast bodies of high quality ore. Biotechnology major. multimillion dollar facility at Tech- techniques for enrichment seem to be more nology Pa rk wh ich w ill emnploy 100 peop le. The closely related to those parts of the World which negotiations are at an advanced stage and they are down to the residual pants of their ore involve the Minister for Minerals and Energy, bodies and where they are seeking enrichment me and the Technology Development Auth- systems and processes. ority. [Wednesday, 17 June 19871 232639

I respond to the member for Murchison-Eyre menit or office, to go into the private sector, do by indicating that an important effort is being well and succeed. We have a philosophy which made to develop new directions in this area. says. "You come, you grow and you go." Mr Lightfoot: Because some of the smoke- I am delighted to say that some of the best stack industries in Japan are going offshore. people involved in this field of science and you would not object if a smokestack industry. technology are actually people who have a high technology or an industry involving contributed in a small way to the Government technology, was negotiated for Western programmes. Australia? You are not opposed to anything Mr Court: You just made an interesting with respect to smokestack industries merely point about the level of salaries, where you because Japan rejects them? ranked them in order of academic. Govern- Mr BRYCE: No, not at all. If somebody ment. and private salaries. Because of our crazy could produce the ingredients for the successful tertiary system, academics are where they are, establishment of a specialised steel plant in and it is a disgrace. Western Australia. we would grab it with both Mr BRYCE: I wholeheartedly agree, and if I hands, on the basis that we have energy and could I would reverse the position of quite a high quality ore. It always sits there as a num- few of the people that I work with. However, it ber one objective of all Governments which is very difficult to deal with this situation with occupy Treasury benches in their working re- a broad-brush approach and say that all aca- lationships with those companies that have decmics are entitled to those sorts of salaries. those obligations. Mr Court: Under our current tertiary system, It is good news that those companies and the the market cannot work. Government of the day are changing their thinking about the interpretation of those obli- Mr BRYCE: At the risk of leaving any of gations for downstream processing and invest- those ends untied, I just say that on that par- ment associated with the agreements that this ticular point, for the benefit of the Leader of House enacted and approved so many years the National Party, there will be a significant ago. number of people on contract. That will be necessary because the Public Service cannot I conclude by referring to the point made by produce the sorts of people who are needed in the member for Merredin. the Leader of the respect of a whole number of areas involved. It National Party, in respect of contract em- does not matter who is in Government; it is ployees. This important point is mentioned in going to need people. This particular agency the second reading speech and a clause in the will need people from time to time from the Bill deals with it. I have indicated the difficulty private sector, and I seriously believe that I have as Minister in securing a sufficient num- many of them will only remain in those jobs for ber of people with the key skills. The member between one, two, and three years, and go back for Nedlands may want to poke a stick at this into the private sector, having benefited from a problem because it gives him some satisfaction. period in the public sector. but anybody who occupies this job will have difficulty in retaining people in an area where Question put and passed. Government pay is not as high as it is in other Bill read a second time. areas. Three levels of salary are paid in this community as far as the market is concerned: In Committe The lowest level is academic salaries, the The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Dr middle level is the salaries paid by the public Lawrence) in the Chair; Mr Bryce (Minister for sector and the top salaries are paid by the pri- Industry and Technology) in charge of the Bill. vate sector. The most serious long-term diffi- culty we face is being able to retain people on Clauses I to 4 put and passed. salary packages of $50 000 or $60 000, who will Clause 5: Section 3 amended- be offered treble that amount in the private M r COU RT: I n clause 5, one of the th ings we sector. That, in no small way, explains the turn- are doing is bringing in a new definition of the over to which the member for Nedlands drew "chief executive officer" for the new depart- attention, through slightly less charitable eyes. ment, and I would ask the Minister to give an I make no bones about it; as a matter of fact I explanation about the person who has been encourage people on contract who have spent a chosen for that position, and the background of year or two with the Government, my depart- that person, given the concern that many of the 2640 2640[ASSEM BLY] senior officers in the department appear to be It is not correct to say that there has been a going off to the Office of Redeployment and massive change of people. There will be a sig- Retraining. nificant change of people over time, for the reasons I indicated earlier on, but if the mem- The Minister likened this operation to an ber wants to draw my attention to other aircraft carrier that had to be turned around, people- and he mentioned there were about 30 people there when he went into the operation. We Mr Court: So the other senior officers stay, must remember that is four and a half years with new titles, do they? ago, and I would like to think that, with all the Mr BRYCE: Yes. The actual structure is be- revamps that have gone on, the personnel prob- ing put together now, but I think the coordi- lems would have been well and truly sorted out. nator is the only person who has left. I understand that there will be a turnover in these departments, but it seems to me the turn- Mr Court: Tell us about the chief executive over has been extremely high. It seems that officer. after four and a half years. without going into Mr Crawford was the personalities BRYCE. Mr Jim of the people, some of the appointed to the position, after the job had senior people in the department are leaving. been advertised nationally for some six to eight The Minister has said it is difficult to get weeks. The Public Service Board did its normal people, and yet, with this particular revamp, we thing: It produced a short list, and then made a seem to be having a growth in the Office of Final recommendation to Cabinet. Cabinet Redeployment and Retraining. it would seem appointed Mr Crawford. H-e comes from that the Government should solve this issue Sydney. He has had experience both in within its own department, rather than creating Government and the private sector. He has just More people going into this other office. terminated his employment with IBM and a Mr Peter Dowding: What growth does the couple of other companies, having spent the member mean? best part of 12 to 18 months on total quality programmes, after about six or seven years Mr COURT: When the BMA was done, for with the New South Wales Government. example, a lot of the officers there were put into the Office of Redeployment and Clause put and passed. Retraining until they- Clauses 6 to 8 put and passed. Mr Brian Burke: What would you have done Clause 9: Section 5 amended- with them? Mr COURT: Members on this side have Mr COURT: The Minister has talked about some concern about the mechanisms involved how difficult it is to get people. I am just saying with this clause and just what is left of the so- that with this particular revamp, a lot of senior called corporate body. The clause indicates that people are leaving the operation, and why is "the body corporate that was hitherto estab- that happening? lished uinder this Act by the name of the Mr BRYCE: It is not true to say that a lot of 'Western Australian Technology Development people are leaving. Simon Fraser, the head of Authority' is preserved and continued in exist- the Technology Development Authority, who is ence as a body corporate under and subject to ex-Price Waterhouse, publicly indicated that he the Provisions of this Act but so that the cor- is taking up an appointment with Formulab porate identity of the body corporate and its and going over to the private sector. 1 am sur- rights, obligations and assets are not thereby prised that he stayed quite as long as he did, affected". As I understand that, the Technology having his particular skills. I had no indication Development Authority is to be preserved and that he would be going to Form ulab, but he has its identity and powers vested with the Minis- probably been tempted for a long lime by in- ter. Schedule 2 of the Bill removes the TDA centive packages to go into the private sector. from the provisions of the Financial Administration and Audit Act. The Minister 1 think there is only one person who has left indicated that clause 34 removes some of those the Department of Industrial Development, powers. As I understand it, we are to have a and that is Mr Fisher, the former coordinator, new department created and the old TDA is to and he has taken up a position with the Public be made not subject to the provisions of the Sewrvice Board. He has not gone to the Office of Financial Administration and Audit Act. Is Redeployment and Retraining. that the situation? [Wednesday, 17 June l987J]64 2641

Mr BRYCE: When the Functional Review Mr BRYCE: Section 12 of the Act deals with Committee and the group established by Cabi- the functions of the authority and section 13 net looked at the functions of these four bodies, with the powers of the authority, and all those we were presented with two options: One was functions and powers are transferred to the new to bring the Department of Industrial Develop- department. It is responsible for its rnodus ment under the auspices of the Technology De- operandi according to the provisions of the velopment Authority; that is, literally to amal- Financial Administration and Audit Act. gamate the two and leave it as the Technology Mr Cowan interjected. Development Authority with a board as the corporate authority, exactly as was, thereby Mr BRYCE: The section dealing with the effectively abolishing the Department of Indus- opening and closing of special accounts has trial Development. The other option was to been deleted from the Act. amalgamate the four agencies and retain the Mr Cowan: Now I understand. departmental structure with responsibility di- Mr BRYCE: The corporate powers are the rectly to the Minister in a departmental sense, only powers involved. as with departments such as Health, Lands, Mr COURT: I do not quite understand what Fisheries, and Education, where the Minister the Minister is saying. The new clause I I has the body corporate status. We accepted the transfers the functions and powers of the auth- second option. ority to the department but clause 9, the clause The purpose of this clause is to ensure that we are currently debating, specifically says that all of the legal arrangements entered into by the the operations of the Technology Development Technology Development Authority, as it Authority will be delegated to the Minister. merges with the old department to become the Mr Bryce: It says "his corporate name". new departmental structure, are met and Mr COURT: It says. "the corporate identity preserved so that when the new body corpor- of the body corporate and its rights, obligations ate, which is the Minister, assumes those and assets.". responsibilities, they in fact transfer to the Minister. Mr Bryce: It is the corporate power, and it is spelt out in paragraphs (a) to (d) of subsection 5 Mr Court: But the powers stay there as well. (2). Section 5 of the parent Act says in effect that under its corporate name the authority (a), Mr BRYCE: But the powers and functions of (b), (c), and (d)-- the TDA transfer to the department. The cor- Mr COURT: It might acquire a perpetual porate body is the Minister. succession. Mr Court: Originally you established a Tech- Mr Bryce: Yes. Under the new Act that will nology Development Authority and gave it a read, in effect, that under his corpomate name whole lot of powers, rights, and obligations. if the Minister can do those four things-that is, you take over all that and we have this new the corporate powers as opposed to the detailed department, how do you delegate between the elaboration of the functions and powers of department and the corporate body? those next two clauses, which go to the depart- ment. Mr BRYCE: The Minister should not have to sign every lease that someone wants to enter Mr COURT: The Minister is saying that we into at Techology Park. We could soon have have misunderstood and the Government is four or rove technology parks with perhaps not taking it over and not keeping in place the hundreds of employees. present development authority but the corpor- ate powers, and yet when the Minister is Mr COWAN: I have some difficulty follow- exercising those corporate powers he will not ing the powers that are to be granted to the be subject to the Financial Administration and department. I understand that the clause gives Audit Act. the corporate powers to the Minister. However, Mr Bryce: The only reason for retaining cor- in a later clause powers are specifically given to porate powers was that property is involved. the department, powers which were previously Mr COU RT: The Technology Park? conferred on the TDA. Some powers are gi ven to the department and some to the Minister. I Mr Bryce: Yes, and perhaps four or five fu- would like a more detailed explanation of how ture technology parks. the Minister is to get all these functions to Mr COURT: And lease agreements and that work. type of thing? 2642 2642ASSEM BLY]

Mr Bryce: Yes. the people who need to be more controlled. Mr LIGKTFOOT: Does this mean that the Perhaps the Minister could explain why this corporate power, when transferred to the Min- has been changed. ister, will not escape the provisions of the Mr BRYCE: I appreciate the member's con- Financial Administration and Audit Act? cern. It is a very valid one, but, in respect of the Mr Bryce: No. I will be required to get the way the clause has been worded, members approval for borrowings from the Treasurer. would appreciate that this clause applies to and all the other functions and powers every person who is or has been a member of exercised by the authority will be subject to the the council, who is or has been an officer of the Financial Administration and Audit Act. department, and who is rendering or has Mr LIGH-TFOOT: It will not be altogether rendered service to the department. That the same as with Exim and with the Western means every person on contract, every person Australian Development Corporation? with a temporary form of employment, and more particularly it caters for, defines and Mr BRYCE: No, it certainly will not. In fact spells out in past tense those people who have it will be very substantially different. 1 apolo- rendered service to the department. gise so members for the use of the word -authority". That was deliberate because we I understand the member's point, but I as- did not want sure him that it has been spelt out in that way it to be in public terms a depart- because the Government is cognisant of the ment, as such. We think there is something ap- pealing and relevant about having the name importance of this secrecy issue. "authority". but it is a traditional departmental Clause put and passed. structure in terms of responsibility and ac- Clause 20: Section 21 amtended- countability. Mr COURT: Could the Minister explain why Mr LIGHTFOOT: On that basis I accept in the table of amendments the Word that. It appears, on the race of it, that it is to "authority" is used? I cannot work out whether escape the provisions of the,FAA Act. it has been amended or not. Clause put and passed. Mr Bryce: The word "authority" means the Clauses 10 and I I put and passed. new department. Clause 12: Section 13 amended- Clause put and passed. Mr COURT: This clause transfers the powers Clauses 21 to 28 put and passed. and corporate identity of the TDA to the M in- Clause 29: Section 41 amended- ister, who can then delegate all those powers to Mr COURT: The Opposition believes that officers of the department- This effectively the use of the common seal. should be subject to gives officers of the departmcnt the corporate audit under the Financial Administration and power for which the Minister or the depart- Audit Act. nient- Mr Bryce: I will give the member a copy of Mr Bryce: We are dealing with clause 12 the Crown Law response on that issue. which seeks to delete paragraphs (b) and (e).. Mr COURT: I should have spoken on clause Clause put and passed. 10, but perhaps the Minister might be able to Clause 30 put and passed. answer my query. Can the Minister delegate Clause 31: Section 45 amended- those corporate powers? Mr COURT: The effect of this amendment is Mr BRYCE: The buck stops with the Minis- to remove the sunset or review clause in respect ter, who is still responsible. I think that is the of the operation of the authority which con- point of the member's query. tinues with its corporate identity as has been Clause put and passed. explained in relation to the powers vested in the Minister. The department and the council Clauses 13 to 18 put and passed. are still subject to review, but all other powers Clause 19: Section 20 amended- and activities delegated to the department by Mr COURT: This clause amends section 20 the Minister are not subject to review. We be- of the principal Act. My concern here is that lieve in some cases it will be difficult to deter- people who held temporary appointments or mine the activities which are subject to acting appointments might not be included in amended section 45 and those which are not. these secrecy provisions. This concern has been Perhaps the Minister will explain what the ef- expressed to the Opposition because these are fect will be. [Wednesday, 17 June 19871 242643

Mr BRYCE: There is not much doubt that variation agreement in context I shall briefly members on both sides of the Chamber endorse describe the background of the principal agree- the view that the functions that will be ment. exercised under this Silt ought to be the subject Members may recall that the principal agree- of review after a number of years. That is the ment, namely the Pigment Factory (Australind) reason for the sunset clause. Members opposite Agreement was passed by both Houses of Par- accept it. If there is some doubt or concern liament in December 1986. The purpose of this about the effect on that procn ss of the Minister agreement was to cancel the 1961 Laporte In- having certain corporate powers and the other dustrial Factory Agreement and enable the powers and functions residing with the depart- company to construct a chloride process tech- ment, the position as I understand it is that, nology pigment plant on its works site at from here on. the review of the department in Australind and shut down its existing sulphate respect of its powers and functions will occur as process. The chloride process is universally pre- spelt out in the Bill. The corporate powers of ferred to the sulphate process on environmen- the Minister are a perpetual authority and, tal grounds. The effluents it produces can be under our system of Government, will be disposed of to the environment with minimal reviewed by the Premier of the day from time effect, unlike the large quantities of acidic, to time when he makes a decision about iron-containing effluent that is produced by the whether there will be a Minister for Industry company's present sulphate process. and Technology. Construction of the chloride plant will bring Mr Court: So. if the department were about the cessation of effluent disposal on the abolished after five years. the corporate powers Leschenault Peninsula which has been the re- would remain to handle leases, agreements and sponsibility of the State since the 1961 agree- things of that kind? ment was struck. Under the new agreement the Mr BRYCE: I understand that to be the case. company will be responsible for the disposal of all effluents produced following the closure of Clause put and passed. the sulphate plant. Clauses 32 to 36 put and passed. When Parliament passed the principal agree- Schedules I and 2 put and passed. ment in December 1986 the project was still Title put and passed. subject to the company's acceptance of any conditions which would be recommended by the Environmental Protection Authority- Report EPA-following its assessment of the Bill reported, without amendment, and the company's environmental review and manage- report adopted. mient programme. This document described the company's proposals for a 51I000 tonnecs per Third Reading annum capacity chloride plant on its Hill read a third time, on motion by Mr Australind site. Bryce (Minister for Industry and Tcchnology), Although the chloride process is and transmitted to the Council. environmentally preferred to the sulphate pro- cess, it requires the use of potentially hazard- PIGMENT FACTORY (AUSTRALIND) ous and toxic chemicals such as chlorine and AGREEMENT AMENDMENT BILL titanium tetrachloride. Modern chemical plants can be designed to minimise the risk Second Reading associated with the use of these chemicals but it MR PARKER (Fremantle-Minister for is obviously beneficial to have such plants Minerals and Energy) [9.20 pmj: I move- located away From urban development. This point was reflected in the EPA's recently That the Bill be now read a second time. published assessment of the company's pro- The purpose of the Bill is to ratify a variation posals for the Australind plant, which agreement between the State and SCM Chemi- concluded among other things that despite the cals Ltd-hereinafter referred to as the unfortunate proximity of the proposed plant to company-which will enable the company to residential development, the Australind site construct a titanium dioxide manufacturing could be made environmentally acceptable. plant using the chloride technology on Govern- Members may be aware however of the con- ment owned land at Kemerton, approximately sternation the proposals caused in the local 10 kilometres north of Australind. To put the community. 2644 2644[ASSEM BLY)

In May 1987 the company advised me that agreed terms and conditions. In agreeing terms its proposals for a 51 000 tonnes per annum and conditions it is conceivable that the pay- plant were no longer financially viable. The ment may well be in the form of a long-term company further advised that it could restorc interest free loan. In addition, the State will financial viability to the project by increasing purchase SCM's land at Australind upon the its plant capacity to around 70 000 tonnes per closure of the sulphate plant, for the sum of annum. The company believed that this larger $650 000. The State will lease to the company capacity plant could have met the stringent en- those areas of the Australind works site which vironmental standards required at the it reasonably requires to continue its obli- Australind site. The Government, in its knowl- gations under the agreement. A split site oper- edge of the assessment, however, was not ation is inefficient compared with a single site comfortable with the proposal for a larger plant operation and there is the incentive in the at Australind and I instructed the company to longer term for SCM to amalgamate all of its investigate the feasibility of locating the works at the Kemerton site. chloride process section of its proposed new plant on Government owned land at Benefits of the revised proposals include an Kemerton. Members may recall that the increase in the investment in the project to Kemertoti land was purchased by the Govern- more than $ 150 million, an extra 36 jobs and ment as the site for an aluminium smelter. potential additional export revenue of more The company has identified the additional than $50 million per annum. The Kemerton capital and operating costs required to con- land, which was purchased by the Government. struct the chloride process plant at Kemerton for an aluminium smelter, will provide an and the Government has agreed to meet a ample buffer zone for the chloride process and portion of the additional capital costs, which I the topography will minimise visual impact. shall detail later. The siting of the chloride project will not preju- It is now appropriate for me to describe dice the potential for construction of an alu- briefly the new proposals which are the subject miniumn smelter at a later date. The viability of of this agreement. the company's chloride project is related to seizing a market opportunity, ahead of its over- Subject to Government approval and the seas competitors, and I agreed that its study of company's acceptance of any procedures and the Kemerton site should not unduly prejudice conditions which may be set as a result of the its tight time schedule, and gave an assurance EPA's assessment of the new proposals, the 70 000 tonnes. per that the State would endeavour to expedite the company will construct a necessary approvals. annum capacity chloride process plant at Kemerton. The actual plant location is yet to be finalised but it will be within the area of I would like to commend the work of the land shown on the sketch referred to in the company, State and local government officers agreement, a copy of which I will now table. and my parliamentary colleagues whose hard (See paper No 212.) work has made it possible to bring the amend- menit agreement to the House at such short Mr PARKER: The raw titanium dioxide pig- notice. ment produced by the chloride process plant at Kemcrton will be transported by road to the company's existing finishing plant at I must add, however, that although Parlia- Australind which will be upgraded in its ca- ment is being asked to ratify the amendment pacity. The amendment agreement provides for agreement this session, this in no way preju- the company to shut down its sulphate: plant in dices the required environmental assessment June 1990, when sulphate plant effluent dis- procedures. The Government makes it quite posal on the peninsula will cease. clear that final environmental conditions will be addressed prior to final approval being The State will provide a surfaced road access granted regardless of the ratification of the to the company's Kemerton site plus the amendment agreement by Parliament. Mem- necessary infrastructure for the provision of gas bers may be interested to note that the and electricity to the site boundary. company has already submitted to the EPA a In recognition of the extra costs to the notice of intent of its proposals to construct a company of establishing and maintaining a chloride process titanium dioxide plant at split site operation, the State will pay the Kemerton, and EPA assessment has company a sum of $6 350 000 upon mutually commenced. [Wednesday. 17 June 1987J]64 2645

I will now summarise the clauses contained introduced by clause 4(7) of the variation in the Pigment Factory (Australind) Amend- agreement. Clause 12A provides for the State ment Agreement and in so doing I will refer to to pay to the company $6.35 million. This sum the original agreement dated 18 November is to be paid progressively as detailed in para- 1986 as the principal agreement. graphs (a) to (d). Clause I ensures that words and expressions Clause 4(8) of the variation agreement makes have the same meaning as they have in the the provisions of clause 13 of the principal principal agreement. Clause 2 contains the ob- agreement dealing with disposal of the ligations to introduce and sponsor the ratifying Australind works site also applicable to the Bill in Parliament. Clause 3 provides that the Kemerton works site. main clauses of the amending agreement shall Clause 4(9) of the variation agreement intro- not come into operation until- duces clause 13A into the principal agreement. the ratifying Bill has been passed by Parlia- Clause 13A requires the company to sell the ment', Australind works site to the State. It also pro- the company has notified the State of its vides for lease back of portion of the site for acceptance of the conditions and pro- continued use for the finishing stage of the cedures detailed in the EPA report; and the company's product for a term to be agreed. sale and lease arrangements for the Clause 4(10) of the variation agreement ex- Australind site, as detailed in clause 4(9) tends the provisions of clause 14(l) of the hereof, have been finalised. principal agreement dealing with water require- Clause 4 (l)(a) changes the effective date for ments to the Kemerton works site. changeover from the sulphate process to the Clause 4(11) of the variation agreement chloride process from 31 December 1989 to 30 amends clause 15 of the principal agreement June 1990. Clause 4 (1)(b) identifies the by- chloride plant as being at Kemerton. Clause 4 changing the heading from "electricity" to (1)(c) ties references to the EPA report to rel- .energy" evant parts of EPA bulletin 275 of May 1987 and any other EPA reports in respect of the changing '*power" to "energy" in notice of intent. subclauses 0I) and (2);, and Clause 4(lI)(d) substitutes the existing ERMP making the clause also apply to the definition for a more specific definition. Clause Kemerton works site. 4(1 )(e) introduces definitions for the Kemerton Clause 4(12) of the variation agreement makes factory, the Kemerton works site, the finishing clause 17 of the principal agreement dealing plant and notice of intent. with road haulage also applicable to the Clause 4(2) introduces into the pricipal Kemerton works site. Clause 4(13) of the vari- agreement a new clause 6A which provides for ation agreement amends clause 18 of the the granting of the Kemnerton works site of principal agreement by making the zoning pro- approximately 55 hectares to the company at a visions also apply to the Kemerton works site nominal cost and enables the company to gain and substitutes the buffer zone at the early access for preparatory works. Australind site for a buffer zone around the Clause 4(3) substitutes clause 7(l) of the Kemerton chloride plant. principal agreement with revised requirements Clause 4(14) of the variation agreement in- for the submission of detailed proposals rela- troduces a new clause I SA into the principal tive to the establishment of the chloride pro- agreement to permit construction of the facili- cess plant at Kemerton. Clause 4(4) expands ties at the Kemerton works site to proceed the scope of clause 9(l) of the principal agree- without any other approvals being necessary. menit dealing with additional proposals to in- Construction, commissioning and operation, clude the Kemerton works site. Clause 4(5) ex- however, must conform to the normal statutory tends the application of clause 10 of the requirements, and the works on the site will be principal agreement to include the Keinenon subject to approval in accordance with the pro- works site in respect to the operation of the posals mechanism contained in clauses 7 and 8 provisions of paragraphs (b), (c) and (d) of of the principal agreement. clause 10. The current proposals, the subject of the Clause 4(6) makes the payments referred to amendment agreement, will secure for the State in clause 12(1) of the principal agreement sub- a substantial investment by SCM Chemicals ject to the provisions of clause 12A which is Lid which will bring about the introduction of 2646 2646[ASSEMBLY] a technological process new to Western By deleting the word "or", it now reads -(a) Australia on a site that is environmentally su- published in the Government Gazette and (b) perior to the company's Australind site. served on the", etc. Does that mean those I commend the Bill to the House things have to happen? Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr Mr Parker: They are both published in the Laurance (Deputy Leader of the Opposition). Government Gazette. Mr LIGHTFOOT: Would it not have been Message Appropriations simpler to include the word "and". Message from the Governor received and Mr Parker: It is not necessary. read recommending appropriations for the pur- Mr LIGHTFOQT: I accept that. We endorse poses of the Bill. the amendment. CENSORSHIP OF FILMS AMENDMENT Mr TRENORDEN: The National Party also BILL endorses the amendment. This Bill, along with the Video Tapes Classification Council'sAmendment and Control Bill, has been a triumph for the State. I am very Amendment made by the Council now con- pleased to see that after a large amount of pub- sidered. lic concern and debate that this Parliament. with some areas of disagreement, is moving In Comm~ittee with public opinion. It is an example of what The Chairman of Committees (Dr Lawrence) can happen in this place. We are not always at in the Chair: Mr Parker (Minister for The Arts) each other's throats and arc not always chasing in charge of the Bill. obscure objectives. This Bill will close a loop- The amendment made by the Council was as hole. We support it. follows- Question put and passed- the Council's Clause 4. page 2. line 22-To delete amendment agreed to. "or" Mr PARKER: I move- Report Resolution reported. the report adopted, and That the amendment made by the Coun- a message accordingly cil be agreed to. returned to the Council. The amendment was moved in the Legislative MAIN ROADS AMENDMENT BILL Council by lHon. P. G. Pendal. It is a rela- Council's A mendments tively small amendment, but does have impact. The principle purpose of the Bill was to pro- Amendments made by the Council now con- vide the Minister with the opportunity to desig- sidered. nate certain drive-in theatres as being unsuit- able for the showing of certain films. At the In Committee time of such designation, the original Bill, as it The Chairman of Committees (Dr Lawrence) left this Chamber, proposed that the Minister in the Chain; Mr Troy (Minister for Transport) had to give notice either by writing to the pro- in charge of the Bill. prietor or in the Government Gazetle. The amendments made by the Council were The amendment moved by Hon. P. G. as follows- Pendal requires us to do both those things No I rather than either/or. The Government accepts Clause 8, page 3, line 8-Delete that amendment and asks the Committee to I I" and substitute " 14". incorporate it in the Bill. No2 Mr LIGHTFOOT: We have demonstrated quite clearly that we are opposed to pornogra- Clause 8. page 4, after line 14-In- phy, particularly pornography relating to the sert the following subelauses- ill-treatment and cruelty of children and crimes (1) one shall be a person appointed against women that may be called "porno-viol- by the Minister after consultation ence". If this Bill does tighten up an anomaly with the Western Australian with respect to another Act, we wholeheartedly Chamber of Commerce and in- endorse this small amendment which has, as dustry (Inc.) and such other per- the Minister said, some impact beyond the de- sons or bodies, if any. as the Min- letion of that single word. ister considers should be given an [Wednesday. 17 June 1987]164 2647

opportunity to make represen- opportunities that come from that for the com- tations on behalf of business and missioner to be involved in interstate matters commercial interests generally-, frequently resulting in his absence. (in) one shall be a person appointed The second of those initiatives was the con- by the Minister after consultation sideration of the statutory payments to local with the Western Australian authorities which had expired on 30 June 1985. Farmers' Federation (Inc.) and such other persons or bodies, if There was some retrospective component in any, as the Minister considers that proposed legislation which brought for- should be given an opportunity to ward a schedule of proportional allocations make representations on behalf of which had been negotiated back in 1977, with farmers;, minor amendments to the total allocations to each of those sections. (n) one shall be a person appointed by the Minister after consultation The third area concerned the creation of a with the Pastoralists and Craz- Main Roads Advisory Board. The original con- iers' Association of Western cept was that there be an 1 1-memnber board Australia (Inc.) and such other consisting of those people who had a direct persons or bodies, if any. as the interest in road building-the local govern- Minister considers should be menit authorities involved, and interested given an opportunity to make rep- groups such as the trucking industry, motor car resentation on behalf of pastoral- operators, and environmental groups-as well ists. as the Commissioner of Main Roads, ex officio, and a further person nominated by the No 3 commissioner, two persons elected by the staff Clause 9, page 7, line 20-After the associations in the main roads area, the depart- word "first" add -and second". ment head administering the Transport Co-or- No 4 dination Act, and an independent chair person. They were all represented on that t I-member Clause 9, page 8. line 9-After the board. word 11irst" add "and second". No 5 I acknowledge that there was acceptance by the Opposition in the upper House of the ad- Clause 9, page 9, line 5-After the ministrative difficulty of the present legislation word "first" add "and second". in relation to the commission's powers. There No 6 have been adjuments to accommodate the time expiry of provisions of the Bill relating to statu- Clause 9, page 9, line 8-Delete "that year" and substitute tory payments to local government, from when "those two the Bill was first introduced, to now where the years". second year of a five-year term has occurred. Mr TROY: I wish to indicate the attitude of That is covered by amendments 3 to 6 inclus- the Government with respect to the amend- ive. The first two amendments seek to increase ments that have been made to the Bill con- membership of the board from I I to 14 mem- sidered in this Chamber at a previous session. bers. It was carried over during the interval in the upper House before it subsequently returned to I want to indicate clearly that, while the this place. Government appreciates the Legislative Coun- I remind members that there were three cil's support in principle of the proposed advis- thrusts involved with this Bill. The first of ory board, it is of the opinion that a 14-mem- those was to overcome an administrative prob- ber board is not a workable proposition. 1 indi- lem which had required Executive Council ap- cate to members opposite that in view of that fact we will be rejecting all of those amend- proval on every occasion on which the Com- ments w hich h ave come from t he upper House. missioner of Main Roads was absent from this State. That process had outgrown its time in There are essentially two groups of amend- terms of modem day administrative processes. ments and I suggest we treat them in those We have recognised for some time the benefits groups. Amendments I and 2 apply specifically of the Main Roads Department being the most to the size of the board and amendments 3 to 6 advanced road building authority in this to the statutory period and the retrospectivity nation, and the resultant demands and necessary in termis of the local government 2648 2648[ASSEMBLY] grant. If the Opposition is happy to proceed Leave granted to continue speech at a later along those lines I would be more than pleased stage of the sitting. to do so. I indicate now that I will be asking for a Progress committee to consider the reasons which we Progress reported and leave given to sit again will submit to the Legislative Council for the at a later stage of the sitting, on motion by Mr rejection of these amendments. Pearce (Leader of the House). I move- FAMILY COURT AMENDMENT BILL That amendments Nos I and 2 made by the Council be not agreed to. Second Reading Mr LAURANCE: The Minister was qui te Debate resumed from 27 May. right when he pointed out that there are three MR MENSAROS (Floreat) [9.48 pm]: There separate sections in this Bill. We are quite is hardly any subject, at least in my experience happy to go along with the amendments that and in whatever capacity I take, which would relate to parts one and three, particularly pant have generated more complaints than matters three. We have never had any trouble support- in connection with the Family Court and fam- ing parts one and three of this Bill and, as I say. ily law. Since I became the Opposition spokes- the three pants are quite distinct parts dealing man on legal affairs about three years ago I with totally different aspects. have received an inordinate number of com- plaints varying within the same fields and When the Bill went to another place the sec- covering all sorts of imaginable subjects. ond part of the Bill, which deals with the advis- ory committee, was objected to by the Legislat- Of course, one realises that anything in con- ive Council. which wanted to change the for- nection with separation of the family-dealing mat of that committee by adding three mem- with their assets, with maintenance, and with bers to it. The Minister has just indicated that various matters like that-is a very emotional he will not accept those amendments suggested thing, and perhaps because of that there are by the Legislative Council. We find that a mat- more complaints than in other matters. Never- ter of some regret; however, although I do not thecless, if one discounts this emotional situ- want to canvass the ground that was gone over ation there still is no doubt that this is a field when the Bill was before us previously. I do where there is an enormous amount of dissatis- want to say that we were opposed then and are faction in the community by those people who still to the establishment of an advisory com- have to participate in the proceedings of the mittee in any event. We think it is an unnecess- Family Court. ary move. It has never been in place before; it From that enormous number of complaints will be obstructive, cumbersome, and costly. and the type of complaints one cannot but The Minister wanted to have on that com- come to the conclusion that these people can- mittee a chairman, five State public servants- not all be wrong, despite the emotional involve- goodness knows why he would want all of ment I mentioned. I refer to another significant them-one representative of road freight fact: About 90 per cent to 95 per cent of the hauliers. one representative of private motor- complainants are men. I do not really know the ists, two representatives of local authorities. reason for this, but some conclusions could eas- and one representative of environmental ily be drawn. conservationists. The Opposition said that if it During the three years I have been involved could not have its way and could not convince in these matters I have given them a lot of the Government that there is no need for this thought and study and done a lot of research committee to be established for the reasons I and reading, and had discussions with various have outlined, then at least the committee people. I was fortunate to be able to discuss the should be fully representative. That was a fall- matter with the chairman of judges of the Fam- back position and a very undesirable second- ily Court with whom I spent quite a lot of time. best position for the Opposition. However, the and he conceded there is dissatisfaction. On the Legislative Council decided to move in that other hand, he could not come up with a sol- way because we had received representations. ution. I would not claim that I have a solution, and I believe the Minister had received rep- but I have certain thoughts to which consider- resentations, from various organisations which ation could be given as to whether they might were not proposed to be represented on the go towards remedying this inordinate number Government's advisory committee. of complaints. [Wednesday, 17 June 1987]164 2649

Firstly, I believe the no-fault divorce, which There is another aspect which the Minister was introduced 10 years or more ago by Mr touched on in a different way and that is the Justice Murphy-Senator Murphy, as he then decision made about the assets, particularly was-through the Fam ily Law Act, has resulted those which were brought into the marriage. in marriage being debased from a l ifelong bond We found many complaints about the fact that to virtually a contract of convenience, It assets brought into the marriage by one party, encouraged many more divorce cases than usually but not always the husband, are more existed in comparison with the number of mar- and more considered to be joint assets when it riages prior to the introduction of no-fault div- comes to the dissolution of the marriage. In- orce. If one looks at the statistics, one sees there dleed the case is not unusual of a woman mak- is no doubt there are now more separations and ing quite a comfortable gathering of assets by divorces in Australia than in places where the marrying and divorcing several times. no-fault divorce does not exist. Mr Peter Dowding: That is unfair. There are European and continental countries which have a mixture of provisions Mr MENSAROS: Maybe it is, but it is a fact. for separation and divorce and where there is a Mr Peter Dowding: The Act recognised that similar provision to no-fault divorce, but it is which was not recognised in the pre-1 962 legis- only part of the provisions. I know of one lation-the substantial contribution made in country where the rules are roughly that one the capacity of a homemaker. can have a mutual consent which must en- compass not only divorce but all the ancillary Mr MENSAROS: The Act does that, but the matters such as assets, maintenance, and cus- complaints are still mainly about that, and that tody. In this case a couple has to go to the court is what l am trying to analyse. and announce that they have a mutual agree- ment, and in a year's time they have to go back The third aspect is that perhaps there is very and announce it again, and then the marriage is little publicity given to Family Court proceed- dissolved. ings. The reason is not that the media is excluded, because in most cases it is not, but Parallel to this there is still the fault situation that the media automatically loses interest be- which can be chosen by any plaintiff, and a no- cause the names cannot be mentioned. if the fault divorce is introduced only after a separ- media could print the names it would print the ation of five years when one of the partners case. The result is-and it was mentioned to does not want to be divorced. That has resulted me by judges-that whereas in other courts in a situation where there are less- there is a frequent and almost constant Mr Peter Dowding: It has also resulted in reporting which reminds the judges that this blackmail. might be the public view and opinion, they Mr MENSAROS: I do not think so. keep their views within the law, of course, but to some extent in accordance with that Mr Peter Dowding: Yes, it did in Australia. position. This contact with public opinion is Do not create some ideal system which is in lost to a great extent in the Family Court cases fact nonsense, it led to blackmail, as it did in because they are reported to a much lesser ex- England. tent. Mr MENSAROS: I do not agree with that. Mr Peter Dowding: You do not favour Mr Peter Dowding: People were hanging out reporting of people's personal trials and tribu- for unreasonable settlements in return for con- lations, do you? sent. Mr MENSAROS: All right. The Minister is Mr MENSAROS: Not without exception, but worrying about the settlements. I think we should eriously consider whether the present status quo in which they cannot be Mr Peter Dowding- No, I am not worrying reported in almost all cases should remain. about the settlements but about the man or woman hanging out for the consent who was Mr Peter Dowding: Margo Lang has done a happy to find that all the moral problems went very good series. out the window so long as there was a nice big Mr MENSAROS: She does a fortnightly cheque. series which is fairly theoretical and does not Mr MENSAROS: The situation has necessarily achieve the same result that the deteriorated since the introduction of no-fault court itself should be able to observe the pub- divorce. lic-as opposed to a journal ist's-opin ion. 2650 2650[ASSEMBLY]

Those are the thoughts that 1am projecting. I Law Department, the Chief Justice, the chair- think they should be considered because they man of judges of the Family Court and the might lead to some solutions. registrar of the Family Court were involved. Mr Peter Dowding: I assure you Cram (he They must have very important and interesting Governument benches that I hope they are never views. On the one hand we do not know considered. whether they agreed or disagreed with the proposition that the Government has before Mr MENSAROS: The next point I wish to the House, and on the other hand the Attorney raise, and it is one about which quite a lot has General's answer shows that nobody from the been written recently, and even the Federal At- community and-if I may use a funny ex- torney General has picked it up albeit in a dif- pression-no consumers have been consulted ferent direction, is whether it is correct to have about how the legislation should be the Family Court separated entirely from the implemented, rest of the courts. The judges in the Family Court have a very special ised field, and despite I realise that if the Government were to do the (act that in Western Australia in particular this, it would take a long time for the legislation they have a mixed jurisdiction of Federal and to be enacted. It has taken a long time since the State laws which affect other than the divorce report was received, but it would mean a more itself, they cannot acquire experience about open Government which was advocated by the other matters. The view is growing stronger present Government when it was in Oppo- that if the Family Court were combined with sition. However, it has not exercised that since civil courts where litigation is taking place, the it has been in Government. judges would have wider experience in those I shall not go through all the provisions in the matters and the results might be better. Bill. They were dealt with fairly broadly in the For all the considerations which I have Minister's second reading speech and for those mentioned, and allowing for the fact that the members who are interested I advise that the family is the most important nucleus of our Attorney General has supplied me with society. the legislation must have the most hu- detailed clause-by-clause Committee notes man and perfect support and encouragement. which I appreciate. These notes will provide an and this support should also come from the advantage to those members who are interested Government and the judiciary. in this subject. The Bill is tremendously important. Being a I would like to mention some of the pro- fairly trite legal Dill it is one of those measures visions which, in my view, merit comment and which does not cause a great deal of interest in perhaps a different solution from the Govern- this place. It is typical of legislation which ment's proposals might be advisable or feas- should go before a committee to allow it to be ible. properly examined, instead of it being dealt I will also mention some comments which with in a second reading debate and with one came directly from the Law Society of WA. I or two clauses being debated at length in the would like its comments to be on record be- Committee stage. cause apparently the Attorney General has not I think it is important that experienced consulted with the society. He advised, in an people in the legal field, as well as in the wel- answer to a question, that the Law Society was fare and spiritual care fields, should have had not involved in this legislation. Although I do an opportunity to have an input to the legis- not agree wi th allI the v iews of the Law Soc iety, lation. Although the Dill had a very long ges- I would, as I said, like to mention its comments tation period-not only since the O'Connor re- just for th e record. port, but also going back to the Commonwealth Some of the advice I have received suggested Government amendments to the Family Law that the Family Court law should also provide Act-it is not fair that the serious examination for resolution of property disputes between de I have suggested did not take place. factos within the Family Court where other de I asked the Attorney General, in respect of facto disputes are settled. Recently, issues deal- the Commonwealth Family Law Act amend- ing with property had to be settled at a Su- ment. what further examination and/or dis- preme Court which has different principles re- cussions or comments within or outside the lating to the law of trust and it does not have Crown Law Department had the matter been the counselling and consultation procedures subjected to after he had received the which are made available by the Family Court. O'Connor report. His reply was that the Crown Mr Peter Dowding: Do you recommend it? [Wednesday, 17 June 1987] 252651

Mr MENSAROS: Not at all. I am just I still believe the majority of Australians con- outlining views which have been put to me by sider de facto relationships are not right as the Law Society. opposed to marriage. Some people might have a different view. I do not think it has been put Mr Peter Dowding: Do you recommend to a ballot, but that is my opinion and my them? experience from talking to people. Mr MENSAROS: I am not recommending it, If a de facto molests a woman, surely there but if the Minister will wait he will see that I should be some other injunction or police ac- have a contrary view. The Law Society has tion which can be used to prevent such moles- made comments on this very subject and it is tation. in this case success was denied because worthwhile for members of this House to con- a certain method was used by the woman. sider its opinion. I would like to place its views on the record without making any positive Clause 4 repeals section 3 of the Act. Section recom mendat ions. The Law Society said- 3 simply sets out the arrangement of the Act, which the Bill does not do. It is a good idea to 28A does not create any have in a Statute of any significant length some change''*section in the general powers of the Family arrangement such as we have in many of our Court to make injunctions and in particu- Statutes. Clauses are set out at the front as they lar, the section will continue to operate as follow one another, with their titles, and the a power to issue injunctions in aid of some Act is made easier to handle. The Criminal other relief under the Act and not indepen- Code not only has an index at the front but an dently of proceedings under the Act. alphabetical list at the back so that one can find certain subjects, even if one is not familiar with The specific case which the society cited as- a the Act. precedent reads as follows- In clause 5 certain changes are proposed re- ...the Chairman of Judges considered garding titles of the chairman and judges. an ex pante application by a mother for Those have been taken from District Court injunctions to restrain her former de facto legislation. I do not think there is any criticism husband from entering and remaining on with this. The chairman will now be the chief her place of residence and from molesting judge. her and her children but applied for no other orders or relief. Her application One could comment that these name changes failed because the injunctive power must are very frequent in these Bills. In those I have be exercised ancillary to some other handled today and shall tomorrow, several are necessary only because of changes in the names jurisdictional power of the court. of officers in various departments. the depart- Under the Family Law Act 1975 an in- ments themselves, or the titles of Ministers. junction can be a matrimonial cause and a One often wonders what errors were found basis for jurisdiction per se. His Honour with departments which have existed for 70 or was reluctantly obliged to dismiss the ap- 80 years doing a good job in developing West- plication while commenting- ern Australia, such as the Lands Department, the Education Department. the Public Works "if Parliament considers that the Department, and so on. Their names arc Family Court is the proper forum for changed, and glorious titles are given to heads the resolution of legal problems aris- of departments who have worked well for years ing from de facto marriages, it will under Liberal and Labor Governments, bearing have to so legislate clearly and inten- the name or a humble under-secretary. Today tionally. It is notorious that these re- everything seems to need to be changed be- lationships are increasing, and as they cause Ministers or Governments feel the old do, so must litigious issues arise for departments will be linked to their names un- resolution" less they make some changes. I realise the reason behind the suggestion, but I In connection with clause 13. which deals do not agree with it. De facto relationships with section 27 and concerns the jurisdiction of should be given less, preferably no recognition the court, that includes Federal and non-Feder- in law. To some people that may sound out- al jurisdiction. Amongst other things, the non- dated. However, I am firmly convinced that the Federal jurisdiction covers disputes relating to Statutes of a country should express the moral ex-nuptial children. Section 27 as it stands al- view of the majority of its community. lows jurisdiction in respect of' the custody Or 2652 2652[ASSEMBLY) guardianship of. or access to, ex-nuptial chil- ianship, or access order to the child, therefore dren. The amendments will allow the court to divorcing him or herself effectively from the deal with the welfare of such children. parents. It is not clear to me what precisely is meant The Family Law Act has an identical pro- by the welfare of the child, It is not defined at vision; therefore if one assumes that that pro- all. It could deal with almost any matter. I vision should be in the Family Law Act, then it would be obliged if the Minister could give probably should be in the Family Court Act as some explanation of the proper meaning there well. That is my theory and I would appreciate without a definition. an explanation from the Minister. The next reference is to clause 22 of the Bill My next concern is clause 14, which creates a which relates to the supervision of orders. The new section 28A. This is really a reordering in proposed section could well be expanded to sequence of an old section which has been define the rights and duties of the supervising transposed. It is claimed this puts it in a more welfare officer and to impose an obligation on logical place, which I suppose is correct, but the the person or persons affected by the order to court is restricted in its injunctive power. I comply with the reasons for requests and mentioned this point before in connection with suggestions made by the welfare officer. I am the case the Law society has brought up. As a given to understand that it has been the experi- result of repealing the old section and ence of practitioners under similar provisions transposing it to the new section. the court is in the Commonwealth Family Law Act that the allowed a general injunctive power not provision has no teeth and such orders as are restricted to property. made are often ineffective for the reasons I have outlined. That much is said in the second reading speech, but what is not said is that this is a Clause 26(b) creates two new subsections, fairly important step and allows the court to 47(5a) and 47(5b). Both new subsections are make an injunction with respect to children. very commendable. Under (5a) the court is This injunction may restrain a child from given the power to compel a person who knows maintenance, the child being taken from the the whereabouts of a child to give that infor- custodial parent. The injunction may require mation to the court. Subsection (5b) gives the the father to provide security for future pay- court power to compel a State department, in- ment of maintenance. That is a fairly import- strumentality. or government agency to give ant provision which did not exist before. the information about the whereabouts of the child. The redefinition of guardianship and custody These are fairly important amendments. is proposed in a later clause. Proposed new Often a child will be taken from the custodial sections 34(l ) and 34(2) set out the concept of parent to some part of the State or even some custody and guardianship. Here the problem part of the Commonwealth of Australia which arises as to what extent the provision deals with is unknown. A relative of the child, for in- the short-term interest of the child being the stance, or a Government department such as subject of custody. and the much longer-term the Education Department or the Department interest which should be planned and about for Community Services in many cases would which something should be done. The Act lacks have the resources to find out where the child a definition itself, and these two concepts is. Consequently this is a very practical and which are fairly different are not separated as welcome amendment which gives the power to they should be. the court to compel these departments or indi- viduals to give information which would lead Clause 18 deals with section 36 of the Act. location of the child. That amended section will set out who may to the make an application for custody, guardianship. Clause 29 relates to section 55 of the Act and so on. There is nothing objectionable about which deals with applications for maintenance the amendment, although attention is drawn to and preliminary expenses. Again, this clause the fact that the Bill seeks to allow a child, or a has been commended by practitioners I have person acting on behalf of the child, to make an approached, but there was a comment in regard application with respect to the custody or to doing away with the system which has guardianship or access to or welfare of the prevailed so far, and that the evidence had to child. This means that the child will have the be physically corroborated. The proposed situ- power to ask the Court for the custody, guard- ation is that instead of that a medical examin- [Wednesday. 17 June 19871 252653 ation can be ordered although the type of medi- that it should perhaps be considered that in- cal examination has not yet been specified in stead of that the appeals should go to the Full the Bill. That medical examination would Court of the Family Court itself. I am not quite ascertain parenthood, if that is in question. sure that I would agree with that comment, for particularly as to who is the rather of the child. the simple reason that I feel at the moment the But of course, in these paternity debates the healthier situation would be if we had no separ- new provision appears to shift the onus of ate Family Court, and if their present cases proof from the mother to the alleged father. were part of another widely-based jurisdiction, Quite apart from the fact that there are argu- such as the District Court. ments that there is no foolproof medical exam- At the same time, one is in a seemingly con- ination which can establish fatherhood, there tradictory situation because in the circum- are more negative proofs from the point of stances I do appreciate that Western Australia view of blood groups and this type of thing is the only State that has a State Family Court, where it can be ascertained that the alleged and one would not like to see that abolished. I father belongs to a different blood group and would not agree with the consideration of the therefore cannot be the father of the child. Federal Attorney General that appeals might go However, it is much more difficult to positively to a Full Federal Court, because that would identify that he is indeed the father:, and there- raise again the situation that we had regarding fore the criticism in connection with this clause Stale and Federal courts. At least we have a is that, perhaps parallel with the new provision State Family Court, but there is no reason why to order these medical examinations, a require- the same circumstances could not prevail as ment for corroborative material, particularly in they did some IS or 20 years ago when every allegations of paternity cases, should be Federal law has been adjudicated by the re- maintained because it would be more equi- spective State co urts. table. The Law Society then goes on to say, with Clause 41 of the Bill reproduces provisions which are already contained in the Family Law regard to the amendments to section 73C- Act. After section 82 of the Act, a number of The recent Commonwealth Child Sup- new sections are proposed to be inserted. Sec- port paper has recommended, with respect tion 82A allows the court to deal with proceed- to the maintenance of children, a system of ings which are called frivolous or vexatious and administrative determination of obligation gives the court power to declare a litigant a to pay (subject to Family Court review or vexatious litigant. The clause again highlights determination). .. the fact that because family law matters are so Tax- subjective and complex and people are so These collections would then go to the emotionally involved, it is not infrequent that ation Office and disbursement to the custodial one could find someone to be a vexatious liti- parents would be made through that depart- ment. Presumably that would result in the fact gant. From that point of view, this clause is welcomed. that these people would be dealt with in the same way as people who do not pay taxes and However, pant of the section deals with what they would have to pay interest and would be I mentioned at the commencement of my lined. remarks, and that is that in most cases no per- son is able to publish the names of the parties These were the thoughts which in my view or witnesses related to or associated with the gave some worthwhile contribution to the de- family law proceedings. I reiterate that this is bate. at least in dealing with the provisions of one of the reasons that the courts and the the Bill. I have spent considerable time with a judges cannot themselves judge what the com- number of people who are involved and munity reaction is to their decisions. interested and they have had sufficient experi- ence to be in a position to comment on these Again, there is a submission from the things. subcommittee of the Law Society of Western Australia which is worthwhile placing on I trust therefore that these comments might record. The subcommittee notes that there has be considered and responded to. particularly as been no attempt to restructure appeals from the the whole matter was not subject to an outside non-Federal jurisdiction of the Family Court, investigation but only to an internal review- and that these appeals continue to go to the albeit by tne judicial arm of the Government- Full Court of the Supreme Court of Western where only internal people were consulted. Australia. The subcommittee goes on to say Although the Bill ought to do considerably 2654 2654[ASSEMBLY]

more than it does. with my previous observ- bility for the maintenance and upbringing of ances being taken into account. I support the those children. As a taxpayer, I think it is un- Bill. fair that they should be able to dodge this re- MR HOUSE (Katanning-Roe) [10.31 pmj: I sponsibility. thank the Attorney General for making avail- I am sure that all members regard with hor- able to the National. Party a very comprehen- ror the attacks that took place in Sydney on the sive list of amendments and an indication of family of a judge of the Federal Family Court. what they would do to bring this Bill into line Such an attack on our judicial system is to be with the complementary Federal legislation. deplored. However, it needs to be remembered that the anger which led to that attack was Generally, this Bill tidies up the Family fair to say that unless fuelled by the perpetrator's belief that he had Court Act. I guess it is been subject to an unfair judgment from the one has a very strong view on how the Family Bill. court. In letters to editors published in many Court operates, this is not a controversial newspapers we can see repeated the anger However, it is also fair to say that many people which is created and which indicates that the Federal Family have strong views on how the anger that led to the attack is not unusual. Court operates. Fortunately I have never Although it is very hard to legislate to over- brushed up against that court and I hope I come such anger, we must have been try to do so. We never have to, but some people must try to make it easier for people to get involved with it and their anger has been assistance to prevent their marriage breaking documented in various journals throughout down. We have to give people more access to this country. that assistance so that they can try to maintain Family law has become a very messy area their marriage and not simply walk away from over the last 10 years or so. It is apparent that it it when things get tough. is very difficult to legislate to cover divorce, the I have a final point about judgments handed custody of children, and the maintenance of down by courts when dealing with a divorce those children. When a couple's marriage where one partner in a marriage has gone into breaks down it is terribly difficult to legislate to the marriage with considerable assets acquired allow for the anger that breakdown creates. I by the perhaps by way of an inheritance. Plenty of particularly reel for the people hurt examples can be found in family law where a feuding that takes place so often when mar- judge has made what I consider to be a very riages break down. I think it is probably fair to unbalanced judgment in favour of, for instance, say that a few unscrupulous solicitors dealing a wife, when she has been granted a share of the in family law have a bit to answer for in assets or the wealth of that union to which she allowing some of this feuding to continue when should not be entitled. Very good and proper it could have been overcome much sooner and guidelines are laid down for the care and main- easier. tenance of the children involved in a marriage I have a very basic and superficial knowledge breakdown when a father and husband is able of the details of the Bill. I have read the At- to afford such payments. However, it is not fair torney General's notes and have tried to under- that one partner should be able to walk away stand them. I was interested to hear the mem- from a marriage and receive a share of the ber for Floreat. although he really did not in- assets acquired by the other partner before the crease my knowledge of the technicalities of the marriage, perhaps by way of an inheritance. Bill;, still, it is pleasing to find that some mem- This often occurs with family farms, where bers do have a great knowledge of the Bill. many family farms have had to be sold when I believe very strongly in the institution of such unfair judgments have been made. marriage, an institution it is very easy to enter MRS HENDERSON (Gosnells) [10.38 pmJ: these days. perhaps too easy. Over the last 10 I am disappointed that a Bill that is here essen- years or so Parliaments have passed too much tially to bring the State Family Law Act into legislation that has allowed people to abdicate line with changes in the Federal family law has their responsibilities. Evidence of that is the provided some members with an opportunity mentality which has grown up where people to attack some of the underlying principles of think they should get assistance for all sorts of the Family Court. Despite all the criticism things. Unwed mothers with three or four chil- there has been of the Family Court system- dren should not be able to receive the benefits and I certainly agree with the member for they do from the Government without the Floreat that a lot of the criticism is inevitable fathers of those children taking some responsi- when we are involved in an area with so many [Wednesday, 17 June 1987J]65 2655 emotional problems attached to it-some 90 reer of caring for their families made to the per cent of divorces are now settled amicably household. I thought that was major step for- by agreement under the provisions of the Fam- ward for our society. ily Law Act. That is an extremely healthy situ- The situation changed from one where prop- ation compared with the old system where we erty was divided on the basis of ownership and had private investigators peering into bedroom financial contribution. Generally, society saw windows and crawling around people's the male as the breadwinner and the money he gardens, taking photographs of underclothes on paid into accumulating assets was taken as his bedroom floors. owning those assets. particularly when the In those days people made their living ped- assets were in his name. A woman found it very dling themselves as people who looked through difficult to claim a major share of those assets keyholes and as long-distance photographic ex- because she had to show proof of her financial perts. Because of the adversity, trauma, and contribution to the household. bitterness that resulted from that divorce The new Act recognised that, in providing system, very few people in our society home support, the women enabled the male to embarked on a divorce without becoming earn the family income and the woman was emotionally scarred. providing a level of contribution to the family I was sorry the member for Floreat at least equal to the husband who earned the mentioned the lack of publicity given to cases living. The assets were considered then to be under the new divorce laws. He said that is jointly owned. That was an enormous step for- something that should be lamented. If anything ward. really speaks volumes about Perth as a small I was sorry to not hear the member for town, it was the old reporting of divorce cases Floreat referring to that as one of the reasons when, in the daily paper every day, we could he had received complaints from more men read about who was divorcing whom and who than women. Obviously, when a system is was being cited for adultery with whom. It was changed to make things more equal and to in- a bit like following the crime columns today. I crease the equity between two pan-ics, there think we have moved a long way from those will be complaints from the party who thinks days and I would be sorry if anyone in this his or her position has become less favourable. House advocated a return to that system. It is At the same time as the legislation recognised certainly true that many people endured love- the role of women in providing support and less, unhappy, and even tragic marriages be- having a share in the assets, it removed the old cause they were not prepared to embark on a image of someone who was to be maintained divorce because of the humiliation and trauma for the rest of her life. It recognised that if she associated with the publicity. was of an age when she could re-enter the work it is also true that when the new Family force or continue to work she would be con- Court system came into operation, there was a sidered able to do this. The legislation then significant increase in the number of divorce spoke about the maintenance of children and cases apparently because of the processing of not of women. I think that was a major step the backlog of cases of people who had waited forward. for the law to change. Since then there has been All studies and research have shown that a settling-down period until, in recent times, children can adapt to happier circumstances in the number of divorces is decreasing. Accord- a home where there is less tension and that any ing to a recent article, the divorce rate attempt by society to try to make marriages last decreased by about four per cent last year. longer by making divorces more difficult un- The member for Floreat spoke about the doubtedly produced much unhappiness, not number of complaints he received from men. only for people in the marriage, but also for the He said that he had difficulty coming to terms children. It increases the level of adversity and with that and we should address it. I think that bitterness that accompanies a divorce and that, really exemplifies the new system because not undoubtedly, has a marked affect on the chil- only does it seek to give dignity to the process, dren and their views of future relationships. and to remove the acrimony, bitterness, and There is no doubt that, today, people have a outright dishonesty associated with cases under higher expectation about the quality of their the old system, but for the first time it relationships. I think that is pant of our civilis- recognised the contribution that women who alion ever progressing and is something we stayed at home and who made a full-time ca- should all welcome. What might have been ac- 2656 2656ASSEMBSLY] cepted as a marriage 20 years ago, which might We need a new attitude. Since 1920, have been endured even though it was un- Americans have insisted upon blood tests be- happy, is no longer acceptable. People now rare two people could marry. I believe that move in a civilised and compassionate way to should happen here. I do not believe the title of deal with their lives and then move on to some- -contracts of marriage", but I do believe that thing else. We should not be looking backwards there ought to be a system of getting people to to some kind of Utopia which people imagine sit down before they get married to negotiate existed. The figures do not reflect the reality. the terms of settlement should the marriage fail. At least at that stage they have mutual Finally, the level of anger referred to tonight respect and love for each other and are looking which has been directed at Family Court judges to the future with hope and a degree of re- and which was cited as an indication of some- sponsibility. thing being wrong with the system is more likely to indicate that because Family Court Trying to get people to do that after the fail- judges specialise in one area only, they will ure is an absolute waste of time. The only way obviously be targets for anger that is so it can be done is arbitrarily by a court. Despite categorised by trauma and emotion. what the member for Gosnells said, I do not Ultimately, a divorce for everyone is an indi- believe that 90 percent of break ups are ami- cation of failure. No-one likes to fail at any- cably settled. That is absolute rubbish. thing. People feel some degree of failure when Mrs Henderson interjected. they embark on divorce proceedings. I support Mr TRENORDEN: I know hundreds of fam- a strong Family Court system and I am pleased ilies in this situation. The member is suggesting that the Bill before us tonight is an attempt to that I am sitting in a little nucleus that is separ- bring the State Family Court legislation into ate from everywhere else in the country. line with Federal legislation. Several members interjected. I was sorry to hear tonight the criticisms and Mr TRENORDEN: The statisitics are aspersions that have been cast on the Family damned statistics. I do not believe that for one- Court system. tenth of a second. If people were encouraged to MR TRENORDEN (Avon) [ 10.47 pm]: The make contracts before marriage and those con- member for Gosnells is about to hear a few tracts were legal and binding, even though more aspersions cast on the Family Court there would be a lot of faults in that system, it system. The Family Court was established in would be a better method than trying to resolve 1976. The main function of the court was to the problem in an air of conflict. More money protect the interests of children, not the should be spent on the reconciliation of famil- interests of parents. In that it has failed. The ies before they come to the crisis point. No- cheating, lying. and deceipt is as bad now as it where near enough work has been done on that ever was. There is overwhelming evidence that area in Australia. In many cases there are the system does not work. There is no point in plenty of signs that a marriage is heading for the court trying to sort out people's lives while the rocks and if those problems are addressed they are angry. bitter and hurt. Counselling at an early stage, there is some hope that the after the event is nearly useless. As someone numbers which are progressing out of the other who has been through the system. I took a great end of the funnel will decrease. In my experi- deal of interest in the counselling system and ence people break up too quickly and once the placed the value of it at pretty close to zero. I lawyers and families have moved in people find am not attempting to denigrate the officers it is impossible to back down and life becomes involved, but it is very difficult for them to as bad as it was before the divorce. attempt to mediate between two very angry and There is currently a great division between disappointed people. I am not talking only men and women in this country. It has reached about my own experiences;, I have watched the stage where many women who are home- many other people who have gone in and out of makers consider themselves insignificant be- that sterilised system. The lack of feeling that is cause they are not involved in a career. De shown is almost like the proverbial pushing up- facto relationships are not accepted by the gen- hill with a sharp stick. Lawyers become eral community and too much legal emphasis is involved far too early and quickly harden the placed on such relationships. Such relation- stand being taken by both parties which is ob- ships may be negative because at some stage viously detrimental to any sort of amicable re- one party to the relationship may decide there sult. should be a legal responsibility. [Wednesday, 17 June 1987J165 2657

I can understand men who have had their cerned about this issue, and amazed that a children taken away from them not wanting to child could have the right to divest itself of a provide an income for them. I do not say that family which might be trying to be strong and that is the right stance but I can understand it. determined with that child. It did not happen to me; 1 won in the court and Legal aid in many cases causes a great deal of got custody of my children. I am very much a concern. A number of men are coming into my lone voice in that respect. Most times it goes office in despair because the wife has legal aid the other way. People have come into my and they are working men on wages trying to office-well over a dozen in the last 12 the months-and battle the State. When I went through the anger in the divorce has been system I had the same feeling. That is not a so great that the person who has custody tries pleasant situation because if one is working for to do everything in his power to keep the other Westrail. or whatever on a wage, trying to fight partner away from the children. That is a dia- for one's beliefs and responsibilities and using bolical situation for the children and for the one's own resources against the State, one feels person who is prevented from having access to very insignificant. those children. We have seen the results of that horrendous situation-some men have gone up The member for Gosnells talked about the into the hills, murdered their children and bitterness of the past; I would say the bitterness committed suicide. of the future will be at least equal to that of the past. I do not believe it is right that people Mr Peter Dowding- That is a sign that some- should creep around houses with cameras and body was terribly sick. so on;, that pant of the member for Gosnells Mr TRENORDEN: Plenty of men and argument was quite valid. In the 1970s and women do not have reasonable access to their 1980s an element has arisen which thinks only children. in terms of "I-lam more important than anything". Family comes second; people are Mr Peter Dowding: They are justifying that divesting themselves of their responsibilities stance on the same sort of rationale as you are and often people act emotionally and regret expressing-the army of men who argue that the spouse should not have access for the sorts that action later, when they find themselves in a position that they did not dream possible in of reasons that you have mentioned. respect of the Family Court. All one's friends Mr TRENORDEN: I am saying it applies say to one, "You are in a position where you both ways. cannot lose" and then the reverse happens;, Mr Peter Dowding: There are a lot of people they do lose arnd there is an irreversible situ- who do things ultimately because they are very ation of a mother or a father virtually without sick. access to their children, but with all the financial responsibilities of a parent. When one MrT TRENORDEN: Yes, that is right. But thinks about it, it is terrible to be deprived of that does not apply only to the family law situ- the love of one's children and the ability to ation. After a divorce many people become so continue as part of a family unit. How can one demented-and "sick" is probably a good be a father or a mother on two days a fortnight? word-about the situation that they force the it is not practical. All one can hope to be is other partner out and force that person into a some sort of uncle or aunty figure because one situation of great grief does not have the input one needs to direct I can understand the feelings of a parent who those children as one thinks they should be loves his or her children and who has no access directed and influenced. to those children but is told by the community The member for Gosnells amazed me when that he or she has a financial responsibility to she spoke about a system which treated men those children. I believe they do have a re- and women equally. If one lined up all the men sponsibility to them, but although in terms of who had faced the Family Court and asked law that argument might be correct, in reality it them whether they considered they had been is hard to enforce. There will continue to be treated equally. I think they would tell one that many bitter people in the community. the system is heavily weighted in favour of A few cases have occurred where children women to obtain custody. Both parties today have been able to divorce themselves from have the same right to earn income and so on, their families. This has caused a great deal of therefore the rights of men should be much concern in the community. I have had a num- more equal than they are at present. Very few ber of women coming to my office very con- men win custody in the Family Court. 1841 2658 2658[ASSEMBLY]

Mrs Henderson interjected. the children without a solid foundation to build Mr TRENORDEN: Quite a few are told at a sound emotional lifeline and they will receive the start by their solicitors not to seek custody. emotional support as well as education. Mr Bertram: Why? The Family Court area is in absolute despair. Mr TRENORDEN: Because they are advised the system has failed and it should be they cannot win. One does not go into a battle examined from top to bottom. one cannot win. I was told by my solicitor that I should not attempt to win custody but I did so MR PETER DOWDING (Maylands-Min- and I won custody. My example is not the ister for Works and Services) [ 11.03 pm]: It is a norm because I won. The vast majority of men disappointment to hear people with a responsi- lose because the system is not designed for men bility to the community making speeches about to have equal opportunity to win custody. the system of the Family Court of Western Australia being such as to cause absolute de- Mr Bertram interjected. spair, with nothing other than anecdotal evi- Mr TRENORDEN: The member is saying dence to support that proposition-evidence that men are not equal to women or that which is not only anecdotal but, on the mem- women are superior to men. That is an ber's own admission, ultimately biased by his interesting argument. personal experience. It is utterly irresponsible The vast majority of men lose these cases to claim that a system has totally failed the because the system does not give men equal community on the basis of that sort of evi- opportunity to gain custody of the children. den ce. Mr Bertram: They do not have the- I would not have bothered to comment in Mr TRENORDEN: Is the member for such forceful terms except that the member has Balcatta saying that men are not equal to made an extravagant, wrong, inaccurate and women and that women are superior to men? It quite misleading analysis of the system is an interesting argument. Much more empha- administered by the Family Court of Western sis in marriage should be placed on responsi- Australia. It is about resolving conflict in diffi- bility and it is impossible to find that sense of cult circumstances when often there is no right responsibility among people of middle age. or wrong, where parties to disputes believe im- plicitly in their own propriety and correctness. The greatest failure in our education system and somebody has to make a judgment. When is that children are not taught any sense of responsibility, self-discipline or self-awareness. they cannot agree, as the member for Gosnells In the education system, from primary school said in a vast majority of cases agreement is through to high school, no emphasis is placed reached, it is unlikely with two fairly finely balanced competing interests, that either party on guiding the children about constructing will walk away saying that it was a fair cop that their lives and the meaning and direction of he or she their lives. That area is totally disregarded. lost. Of course they do not do that but There is strong evidence that up to 30 per cent that does not mean the system fails the com- of children entering primary school and high munity. school are doing so with an unstable emotional It is certainly wrong for this House to assert foundation and they cannot handle their per- that it has failed the community because the sonal problems or school. They emerge from community benefits from having the court to the education system into adulthood as con- turn to. and from the fact that so many of these fused people without direction. disputes are ultimately, with the assistance of We are creating this situation in this nation the court, counsellors, competing legal prac- and it is probably the greatest human resource titioners, and other people who participate in tragedy that so many of our children come out the dispute settling process, settled by agree- of the education system without direction. ment. The number of people who leave the solid personal standing, or any real means of court dissatisfied is. I assure the member, an coping with society. That is a condemnation of enormous number smaller than it was under the Federal and State Governments. One issue earlier systems. I have personal experience over that should be addressed by the Federal almost 23 years-the member for Balcatta will Government and this Parliament is initiating remember my doing my articles with him. We programmes in the education system which will experienced the old Matrimonial Causes Act in teach children better understanding in this area its heyday and know full well what happened and provide the staff to do this. This will help under it. [Wednesday. 17 June 19871 265965

Mr Trenorden: Are you saying it is a perfect IRON ORE (HAMERSLEY RANGE) system? AGREEMENT AMENDMENT BILL Mr PETER DOWDING: We do not have a Cognate Debate perfect system but the member for Avon does a MR PARKER (Fremantle-Minister for disservice by putting fear in the communi.ty Minerals and Energy) [11. 13 pm]: I seek leave and suggesting there is no avenue for settling of the House to deal with this Bill, and the Iron the disputes. If there is anything I decry i.t is Ore (Mount Bruce) Agreement Amendment some of the organisations like the Army of Men Bill, in a cognate debate. and the other vocal critics of the system. I must with regret put the member for Avon in that Leave granted. category tonight. I deplore most of all that it drives people away from the system and en- Second Reading courages them to seek their own solutions in- Debate resumed from 4 June. stead of submitting themselves to the decision- MR LAURANCE (Gascoyne-Deputy making process that the community has set up. Leader of the Opposition) [1 1.14 pm]: The Op- The unhappiness and the grief caused to the position is happy to have these Bills treated in community and individuals in the community cognate debate because they refer very much to from people seeking the solutions outside that the same matters. i indicate at the outset that system are incalculable. I have seen plenty of we support both these mcasures. those in my experience and I can assure the I want to deal briefly with the reason for the member for Avon that he makes a grave error Bills being here, because it is important for the of judgment in his assertions tonight. State that the Government has come to an I will return to the Bill, which has very little agreement with the CRA group, in the form of to do with any of the speeches made tonight. I its various subsidiary companies, to give more refer to the member for Floreat's questions flexibility to the existing arrangements that about particular clauses. He raised the issue of have been entered into a long time previously welfare with regard to clause 18: an example of when these agreements were first put into a situation that might be addressed is school- place. We think that is fair and reasonable, and ing. One parent might wish a child to go to a in looking through the Bill I understand that a particular school and the other parent might fairdeal has been done. object. The clause enables that dispute to be The Minister indicated that he felt the resolved in the context of the Family Court Act Government had received as much out of the if there is no Federal jurisdiction to enable it to changed arrangements as it could rightly expect be dealt with in the context of the Federal Act. and ask for. My discussions with the company It is always a difficult area: it is surprising reveal that it also believes the arrangements are how easy it is to feed people's preconceptions fair and equitable to it. So the obligations upon about the likelihood of failure or lack of fair the various companies involved in the agree- and reasonable treatment in a jurisdiction such ments are no more onerous than the existing as this. It is the duty of members of Parliament obligtions, and, on the other hand, are possibly to support the system unless they are able to no more favourable. If that is the case and it demonstrate elements of the system which can has been agreed by both the parties involved be changed to advantage the community. I do that a good deal has been done, then I trust it not believe we heard that in the debate tonight. works out that way. I support the legislation. When the original agreements were put in Question put and passed. place by the Government of the day in the Bill read a second time. I1960s, it was hoped that these agreements would last over a long period and that it would In Comnmittee. etc. not be just simply a mining operation but that as lime progressed, and as the companies Bill passed through Committee without de- improved their positions and developed their bate. reported without amendment, and the re- mines, they would then go on to further activi- port adopted. ties and processing. It was appropriate that the Government of the day did seek to have Third Reading ongoing commitments from the various pantics Bill rcad a third lime, on motion by Mr Peter to ensure that the State received the benefits Dowding (Minister for Works and Services). not only of the original mines but also of any and passed. technology that came along in the meantime. 2660 2660[ASSEMBLY]

and also that the whole agreement was a dy- of, say, five years, its steel production will be namic one for the benefit of the State. Fairly slightly down on its maximum tonnages that it onerous obligations were placed on the has produced in recent years. companies involved to do everything in their power to exploit new opportunities and to As we are the suppliers of the raw material progress these projects to the secondary stage. for that steel industry, that is not good news for us. We have to do everything in our power to It was never anticipated that there would not maintain our market share in that rather de- be changes along the way and that some of pressed market. these conditions would be inappropriate, given the passage of time: and that is exactly what has It is also interesting to note that now they are happened over the years. I think it is fair to say in this stagnant steel production stage they will that the companies have met all their obli- have to put off a lot of their staff. The live gations as far as has been feasible over the major steel companies in Japan have indicated intervening years. It has been rather unfortu- that 40000 employees will need to be put off nate that there have been some major expendi- from their steel divisions over the next two or tures in a number of areas on plants that are no three years. That is a very substantial number longer operational because of a change of cir- of people. In fact, 14 000 of those 40 000 will cumnstances. When one looks back over the retire over the next two or three years, leaving 1970s, with the two oil price crunches that 26 000 workers who, in other circumstances, came along, and the whole change in the steel would have to be retrenched. However, because industry that has taken place in the last decade of the unique and special arrangements that are or so, it is understandable that the companies entered into between employees and employers have had to look at rearranging their agree- in Japan. those 26 000 workers will be ments with the State in order to provide more retrained and relocated in new areas of activi- flexibility in their arrangements in ensuing ties undertaken by those major trading years. companies. Even though steel is not the glamour metal that it has been in Japan over I had the opportunity of being in Japan three the last 20-odd years, people working in that or four weeks ago, and I was able to meet with a industry will be given the opportunity to re- number of the major trading houses, all of main with those companies, but in other areas which have very significant steel interests. I of operation. was able to visit one of the steel mills, the Wakayama Steel Mill. and it was interesting to That is important to our State because it re- be able to visit that mill because I was ac- sembles what is happening here with these companied by the Leader of the National Party Bills. We are saying that, because of changed and we were extremely well looked after. We circumstances, it is not appropriate for the were shown some Western Australian iron ore State to insist upon the same obligations today that was stockpiled for use in this particular that we insisted on for these companies 20 mill. These people felt that they were showing years ago. Rather than just slavishly continuing me around this plant for the first time. How- on that old path, it makes a whole lot of sense ever. I was able to tell them at the conclusion of to say to these companies. -We will let you out the visit that I had actually visited that mill 17 of some of your obligations because they do not years ago, so it was a return visit for me after a appear to be feasible, but we want you to do very long period of time. other things which will be of value to your company and the State and which will approxi- Of course. 17 years ago the mill was very mate in equal value to the State the obligations much in an expansionary phase. They built we are letting you out of." That is a reasonable about three of four furnaces, and subsequently way for the State and the companies to negotiate did develop up to five furnaces, but a new position. It provides that extra flexibility unfortunately today only three of those are which wilt be important for the future success of operating. One furnace has been dismantled. these companies. and another has been mothballed for the time being, so only three of those blast furnaces at I refer now to the Iron Ore (Hamersley that very substantial Japanese steel mill are Range) Agreement Amendment Bill. The or,- operational today. That indicates the change in ginal agreement required the project to develop the steel requirements of our major customer. in stages from iron ore export, through to sec- Japan. The outlook is not good, either, because ondary processing. and ultimately to iron and Japan has indicated that over the next period steel production. When we consider what has [Wednesday, 17 June 1987]166 2661 happened we can appreciate that some of the of companies. The Opposition compliments iron ore processing obligations have been the CRA group of companies for their enor- fulfilled. mous contribution to the economy of Western The Minister mentioned in his second read- Australia, something they have done for a long ing speech that a pellet plant was com- time. We congratulate them on the number of missioned in Damipier in 1968 and operated new areas they have been able to develop in until 1980, when changes in ore prices and recent years. They have successfully opened the blast furnace technology combined to make the Argyle diamond operation in the Kimberleys. I production of pellets no longer economic. have been very closely connected with the company through its Dampier Salt operation at A concentrator was Commissioned at Mt Tom Price Lake MacLeod in my electorate, and they also in 1979 with a capacity of 6.5 Kar-ratha. million tonnes per year. operate another salt operation at These are examples of Then there is their substantial iron ore oper- where the agreement has been met. ation through the 1-amerstey company. They Despite vigorous effort and numerous have contributed to the wealth of this State studies over the years, Hamersley has not been through exploration and in so many other able to fulfil all of its outstanding obligations ways. They represent a giant mining house within the confined scope of its current defi- which has contributed enormously over a long nition. The Government is saying that the time to the prosperity of this State. I wish the company has not been able to meet these re- companies well in their endeavours and trust quirements and obligations for reasons mostly that they continue to meet with success in the outside the company's control. future. Under the new arrangements the company becomes obligated to come forward with a pro- The Bill gives the company and the State the gramme of investments which the Minister opportunity to arbitrate should there be any may approve as alternative investments to the disagreement over the value of these alterna- processing obligations. tive investments. That is only fair. If the State or the company cannot agree that these projects The company is further obligated to identify are feasible or do not represent true alternative potential alternative investments until it is value, they can have the disagreement arbi- agreed between the company and the State that trated. That is a very desirable condition to alternative investments representing economic place in these new arrangements. development within Western Australia, approximately equivalent to the iron ore I move now to comment on the Iron Ore processing obligations, have become the sub- (Mount Bruce) Agreement Amendment Bill. ject of approved proposals. The aim of this Bill is to achieve exactly the On the other hand, the company has sought same result as the previous Bill but with from the State a number of compensating another group of subsidiary companies. agreements. One is that the investments which The Mt Bruce agreement proposals are to be the State wishes to have the company investi- submitted to the Minister by 31 December gate should be formally referred to it by the 1991 for a plant which. by December 1994, Minister at the time of administering the agree- would have the capacity to produce 500 000 ment. I ask the Minister to indicate later tonnes of steel and that by December 1999 whether any negotiations have commenced on would have increased that capacity to one any investigations. Also, has the company million tonnes of steel. given any indication to the Government of the projects that it is interested in investigating in We are told that CRA Limited has been ac- accordance with this new agreement? tively engaged in developing a new steel tech- The company has also insisted that the nology in joint venture with German interests. potential projects should be related to the ac- I note the Minister's enthusiasm for the tivities of the CRA group of companies and potential of a greenfields steel production fa- that the projects should be prima facie feasible. ci lity that could result from this work. Both of those requirements arc understandable We join with the Minister in wishing that and reasonable. would come about. Both the Minister and the The activities of the CRA group of company have made the point that despite companies are very significant and span a very their best endeavours, this may not eventuate. wide spectrum of mining activities: hardly any This agreement seeks to provide for alternative mining activity is not undertaken by this group investments in relation to this agreement. 2662 2662[ASSEMBLY]

In line with our support for the previous Bill. the obligations would be simply the develop- we indicate that we are happy to see these ar- ment of a new mine or pit which could be quite rangements entered into. I trust that the a substantial investment. There will be some- companies are able to live up to their original thing of a value-added nature which in some agreements wherever possible. However, where way adds to the economic strength of the State that is shown not to be possible they will be other than by another mining operation. That able to come forward with a range of invest- might be something to do with the existing ments which are of great value to this State and mining operation. For example, the electrifi- are able to meet the commitments under these cation of railways has often been the subject of new agreements. We applaud the fact that discussion between the Government and the greater flexibility is being provided to the company. It would be of major benefit to the companies by these arrangements. We compli- company and certainly to the State and would ment the Government for negotiating that have a substantial impact on the integration of position. We wish the companies well- our economic base. Hamerslcy Iron and Mt Bruce-with their en- dleavours under these agreements. There are a whole range of other examples. It is important to understand that just because MR COWAN (Merredin-Leader of the the company wants to dig another pit or mine National Party) [ 11.33 pmj: We understand as another mine, it is not appropriate in the cir- well as anyone that this is a variation of an cumistances. agreement and this Parliament cannot alter a varied agreement. Because of the recession in Mr Laurance: Have there been any specific the steel industry and the consequential effect negotiations? it has on the iron ore industry, it has been necessary for the Government to vary the Mr PARKER: There are no specific nego- agreements that are the subject of this legis- tiations because the obligations of the company lation. do not arise as yet. The company is still to tell us what it regards as its preferred route. It may well We support this legislation. The agreements say it regards one of these ways of proceeding as are very complex. The Government is allowing appropriate. The steel technology in the Mt investments that may be undertaken to satisfy Bruce case might cause a decision to be made to the company's obligations to be varied. We build a semi-commercial plant. There are tech- support this legislation. We accept that. I re- nical issues at stake as well as financial ones with mind the House that while it cannot in any respect to such a plant being built here rather way, shape, or form vary an agreement, it can- than in Germany. not do anything other than accept it or defer it. We accept what the Government is trying to do We believe there is substantial flexibility and and hope that in the future there will be invest- an opportunity for the State to maximise its ments made by the company which allow it to position while at the same time ensuring that give us something from the Pilbara which is a the type of investment concerned is of what little greater than merely an exercise in might loosely be described as a value-added quarrying iron ore for the purpose of shipping nature. I thank the Opposition for its support it out. and commend the Bill to the House. MRt PARKER (Fremantle-Minister for Question put and passed. Minerals and Energy) ( 11.34 pm]: I thank both the Liberal and National Parties for their sup- Bill1 read a second time. port of this measure and the Deputy Leader of the Opposition for his complimentary remarks In Commit tee. etc. about the agreement the Government has with the companies in this matter. I do not wish to Bill passed through Committee without de- add much to the debate. It is clearly set out in bate. reported without amendment, and the re- the second reading speech. port adopted. The type of investments envisaged have been set out in the Bill and as the Deputy Leader of Third Reading the Opposition said, the fact that it is the CRA group of companies means there is a broad Bill read a third time, on motion by Mr scope for things to be done. It is not envisaged Parker (Minister for Minerals and Energy), and that the sort of investment which would satisfy transmitted to the Council. [Wednesday, 17 June 198126 2663

IRON ORE (MOUNT BRUCE) Mr Stephens: If you read the Minister's sec- AGREEMENT AMENDMENT BILL ond reading speech you will see that it is well Second Reading and truly covered.- Order of the Day read for the resumption of Mr LAURANCE: I probably did read it, but debate from 4 June. it was about nine months ago. I am sure that there were goad reasons that it was disbanded Question put and passed. in 1930. Bill read a second time. Mr Cowan: It became a highly politicised body and it made nio recommendations except In Committee, etc. to satisfy the Government of the day. Bill passed through Committee without de- Mr Stephens: We are moving back the same bate, reported without amendment, and the re- way, and that is the reason we oppose it. port adopted. Mr LAURANCE: That is good reason. Third Reading Mr Stephens: That is right. With a little sup- Bill read a port from the upper House it would not be here third time, on motion by Mr now. Parker (Minister for Minerals and Energy), and transmitted to the Council. Mr LAURANCE: An advisory committee would be costly and cumbersome. Earlier today MAIN ROADS AMENDMENT DILL I outlined that it is proposed that the board consist of I I persons-there will be five public Council's Amendments servants, one representative of the road freight Amendments made by the Council further hauliers, one representative of private motor- considered from an earlier stage of the sitting. ists, two local government representatives, and one representative of environmental conser- In Committee vation. It will make an unholy alliance that will have great difficulty The Chairman of Committees making a decision on any- (Mr Burkett) thing. However, the Opposition is of the in the Chair; Mr Troy (Minister for Transport) in charge of the Bill. opinion that as most interests will be represented on the proposed board, other Progress was reported after amendments Nos interests, especially those people who have I and 2 had been partly considered. expressed an interest in this legislation, should Mr LAURANCE: I appreciate the oppor- also be involved. tunity to Continue my remarks and I apologise I refer to three groups which have shown an to the Minister for Transport for having to interest in this legislation. First, the Western break off in the middle of this debate a few Australian Chamber of Commerce and Indus- hours ago. try has made approaches to the Minister and to The Opposition is unhappy that the Govern- the Opposition indicating that if such a body is ment will not accept the amendments that have set up it would be appropriate that the chamber be represented on it. The Opposition agrees. been put in place by the Legislative Council.' We believe they are appropriate. I said earlier Secondly, two producer organisations should that the Opposition did not agree with the for- be represented, the Farmers Federation and the mation of an advisory committee to the Main Pastoralists and Graziers Association. Roads Department. There has never been one If the Government is silly enough to set up a and there should never be one. body of this kind, it should listen to represen- Mr Cowan: There was one many years ago tations from these three groups and make the and it proved to be totally unreliable and it was unwieldy body of I I an unwieldy body of 14. disbanded. As a result, three additional interests would be represented. Mr LAURANCE: How long ago was it disbanded? The work that is proposed to be undertaken by the committee will cut across the sorts of Mr Cowan: I think it commenced in the interests represented by the chamber of com- 1930s and it was disbanded after that. merce in all country towns. Members can im- Mr LAURANCE: I am sorry, but my history agine that a bypass road is of vital importance stretches back only 50 years. I do not know to any chamber of commerce, and that refers what happened prior to that. not only to country roads, but also to city 2664 2664ASSEMBSLY]

roads. Local authorities are also interested in Mr House;, That is an amazing statement. this subject, as are the Farmers Federation and Mr TROY: I am not rejecting the fact that the Pastoral ists. and Graziers Association. they have an interest in roads;, but it is not as The Opposition urges the Government to direct as those representatives the Government rethink this matter and it would like the Legis- nominated. I will give an example: On that lative Assembly to agree to the amendments basis it would be only fair to consider a rep- which have been put in place by the Legislative resenitative from the mining sector, one from Council. We support the Legislative Council's the Fishing industry in certain areas, and so on. intention regarding this Bill. I could then include cyclists, and special com- Mr HOUSE: During the initial debate on this munity groups of disadvantaged people. Bill in October or November 1986 the National Mr House; Which goes to prove how ridicu- Party clearly recorded its point of view. It did lous it was to suggest having a board in the first not agree with the setting up of the proposed place. Main Roads Board and it still holds that point of view. 1 endorse the comments made by the Mr TROY: It goes to the point of where the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. lines must be drawn. In addition to the interests I have mentioned, it could be said that I oo was disappointed that in another place tourists' interests may have a claim. A line Hon. David Wordsworth felt compelled to say must be drawn somewhere and the Govern- that he did not care whether there was an ad- ment felt it was appropriate to limit the mem- visory body to the Commissioner of Main bership to 1 1. We are not prepared to increase Roads. I do care and I do not believe there it to 14. In essence, the amendment completely should be a board of any sort. I strongly sup- loses the balance that previously existed with port the work done by the Commissioner of those representative bodies. Main Roads and his assistants over the years. They have handled the position without any With reference to the historical performance political interference and without bowing to of the Main Roads Department, no-one ques- political pressure. They have spent the money tions that it has been superb: all Governments allocated to that department where they saw fit recognise bow effective this department has in the best interests of this State. The proposed been over the years. The department welcomes board will put political pressure on the com- this possible input from the advisory board. missioner to get him to spend the money where The member for Mt Lawley would be aware the Government of the day sees fit to spend it. from his local government experience that the two major local government associations have Having said that, I make it clear that if there tried to address the question of road funding is to be a board we support the inclusion of the sharing since 1977 without any advance so far. bodies nominated in the amendment in order That clearly shows the considerable difficulty that country people will be represented on such in arriving at a satisfactory conclusion. One of a board. the problems with that issue is the lack of an Mr TROY: It is appropriate to put on record appropriate forum in which local government that the Government feels a 14-member com- could be encouraged to shake off its inertia and mittee would not be conducive to the effective try to resolve the issue. I said in my second performance of an advisory board. We ac- read ing speech that I felt this board would pro- knowledge that the upper House in its wisdom vide such a forum and encourage local supported such a board in principle and we are authorities to address that problem. happy to note that; but we cannot support the suggested number of members. Question put and a division taken with the following result- I do not question the merit of the interest in Ayes 22 roads of those groups advanced by the upper Dr Alexander M r Marlborough House as additional representative bodies to Mr Bertram M r Pearce the board, but they do not hold a direct interest Mr Bridge M r Read considered similar to that of the original I1I Mr Bryce Mr D. L. Smith Mr Peter Dowding Mr P. i. Smith members of the board. However, it is fair to say Mr Evans M r Taylor that the suggested additional representatives do Dr Gallop Mr Tray not have a relationship to the subject matter Mr Grill Mrs Watk ins which is not already rcprescnted by one of the Mrs Henderson Dr Watson Mr Gordon Hill M r Wilson interested agencies nominated in the original Dr Lawrence Mrs Buchanan I1I members. (Tritler) [Wednesday, 17 June 1987]166 2665

Noes 18 LIQUOR AMENDMENT BILL Mr Blaikie Mr Lightfoot Mr Cash Mr MacKinnon Second Reading Mr Court Mr Mensaros Mr Cowan M r Schell Debate resumed from 28 May. Mr Crane Mr Stephens MrGrayden MrTrenorden MR TRENORDEN (Avon) [ 12. 10 am]: This Mr House MrTubby can often be a very emotional subject, so before Mr Laurance Mr Wiese I begin my address I would like to lay dawn a Mr Lewis MrWatt (T11)few parameters and basic beliefs. It should not Pairs (Ti)be necessary to do so. but as I said, this is an emotional argument. Ayes Noes Mr Thomas Mr Clarko I will argue my case on the basis that not all MrTom Jones Mr Spriggs Mr Carr Mr Williams club and hotel users are drunks. Secondly, they Mr Brian Burke Mr Bradshaw do not go la the pub to get l iquored and then go Mrs Beggs Mr Thompson out and kill people on the roads. Often they do Mr Hodge Mr Rushton not dlrink; many people who use clubs and ho- Mr Donovan Mr Hassell tels do not drink-they are there for fellowship. Question thus passedi; the Council's armend- They do not go there to get liquored up and meats not agreed to. then go home and beat their families or damage MrTROY: I move- people's property. That amendments Nos 3 to 6 made by In this argument about licensing hours, the Council be not agreed to. which is the main area I wish to deal with, I My reasons for opposing the amendments re- point out that 70 per cent of alcohol is late to the payment of local authority grants in consumed away from licensed premises. In per- this grouping. centage terms, function permits, parties, and those sorts of activities are a greater problem That was one of the areas we were seeking. It than hotels and clubs. Around 15 000 function may sound an unusual motion but the reason permits were issued last year. Most restaurants for it is that there is a mutual dependence be- now have bring-your-own licences, and the Fig- tween the previous consideration we made in ure of two per cent of alcohol consumption for regard to the Main Roads Department advisory restaurants is misleading because it does not board and a continuing statutory provision for take into account the fact that the vast bulk of a further three years with two years having restaurants are BYO. been covered retrospectively by this proposed legislation. What are the clubs and hotels, and what are But it would set in force a further three years their functions in our society? There are 320 under those statutory provisions when it is clubs employing about 1 300 people and 600 known full well that certain anomalies exist. I hotels employing about 15 000 people. In the therefore think that without a clear indication main the role of hotels and clubs is to provide a that there will be a body addressing those short- meeting place. The meeting places of old have comings in the present allocation formula, it is gone-the church groups, the local dances, and not appropriate that we set into the Statute a all those functions which were available several formula that is recognised as not being satisfac- decades ago. The main meeting places in our tory. Therefore I am moving to ensure that this society in 1987 are the local club and hotel. provision is also rejected. They host football, golf, bowling, tennis, dart. card, cricket, basketball, netball, and lifesaving Question put and passed; the Council's clubs. The list goes on ad infinitumn. It applies amendments not agreed to. to both hotels and clubs. Report. etc. If members go to most hotels in the city they Resolutions reported and the report adopted. will see on the walls of those buildings the names of sporting institutions which they support both A committee consisting of Mr Tray (Minister financially and morally. They provide the forTransport), Mr Laurance (Deputy Leader of finance for most of those sporting organisations the Opposition), and Mr D. L. Smith drew up and many other community organisations. They reasons for not agreeing to the amendments play a role which the Government would have to made by the Council. fill if theirassistance were taken away. Member- Reasons adopted and a message accordingly ship of clubs in Western Australia totals about returned to the Council. 151 000 people. That is a consider- 2666 2666[ASSEM BLY] able number of Western Australians, and it Members will realise that our society in the does not take into account people who I1980s is breaking down. One of the problems is patronise hotels. that community spirit has been broken down and there is less interaction between people. It By not allowing a reasonable opening time is a very important function for people-hus- on Sundays. all those members of sporting or- bands, wives and children-to b~e able to go to ganisations and community groups, and others these places for social discourse which can be involved in hotels, are denied the right of use of finalised at a reasonable hour. We are not say- premises. Sunday is becoming a major sporting ing hotels and clubs must stay open until 10 day with activities taking place from around pm. but they should be able to operate to a midday to 6 pmn. Many of these sporting bodies reasonable hour up 10 that time. do not finish their activities until the sun goes down in summer or winier. It is not acceptable The America's Cup proved that better for them to then go back to premises which trading hours result in better behaviour. The close at 8 pm. police reported on several occasions that they were delighted with the way patrons in Who makes up the 151 000 members of Fremantle handled the America's Cup period. clubs? Many of them are pensioners or disabled In the past, short sessions in other States or unemployed people. It costs $5 or $10 to turned into drinking bouts followed by un- join these clubs. I am a member of two clubs reasonable behaviour, and reasonable people which cost me less than $20. Many of the did not drink there. In all cases where licensing people I have mentioned, along with ordinary hours are restricted to an hour or two a bad wage earners, contribute to the facilities. It is element turns up and drinks quickly. Reason- able people are not interested in that sort of ludicrous to deny them the use of these facili- behaviour. ties on a Sunday after 8 pm. They are crick- eters, footballers, bowlers-one could go right Spont is the main pastime for many Western through the sporting field-and they play in Australians on Sunday. It is played by all- the afternoon a nd shower after their games. tn from those reasonably able in their late years most cases they are with their families and they down to the youngest. Members should look at go back to the sporting club to find their time is the membership of tennis and golf clubs;, the cut short because of the trading hours. children participating are 11I and 12 years of age and upwards. Opponents paint a picture of these places being full of drunks guzzling more alcohol than On top of that argument we have the casino. they can handle and wanting to hang on till the The Government's argument is totally illogical. last moment before they fall off their stools at It encourages 24-hour gambling and people can closing time. That rarely happens. In my ex- drink legally for 24 hours a day. It certainly perience throughout country areas, families does not foster any community spirit whatso- participate in sporting activities, whether ten- ever. People do not come together as a group. It nis, bowls, golf, or whatever, and go back to the is a drinking and gambling place only, and it is club or hotel for the only social contact of the totally illogical. week. I will use one example which is the best I Over the years the liquor industry has been can think of-it is my old home town of attacked by both the State and Federal Govern- Wyalkatchem. which is outside my electorate. I ments. would be suprised if 50 per cent of the people at a football match there on a Sunday were inter- Mr Gordon Hill: Which of the big hotels in ested in the football. If one went into Perth foster community spirit? the refreshment area of the pavilion one would find most of the women in the town having Mr TRENORDEN: I was at a hotel in cups of coffee and renewing acquaintances with Cottesloc tonight having dinner with my fam- people they had not seen for a fortnight, and ily, and there were many local groups of people talking about who were enjoying one another's company. activities which had happened.* That isjust one example. They are getting together and being a com- munity. Cutting that out at 8 pmn as an arbi- Mr Gordon Hill: Do not make judgments on trary act is senseless. In many cases, after the what my opinion is on the basis of the question game is over a barbecue or some sort of meal is I asked. arranged for the bowling club or golf club, and people stay on to be a community. Several members interjected. [Wednesday, I17 June 19871 266766

Mr TRENORDEN: I have not been particu- activities, particularly in clubs, are held after larly impressed with the Minister's attitude hours. As a result, penalty rates are heavy on about hotel and club activities. the industry. In return, the Government has Mr Gordon Hill: My attitude? What are you given nothing. In fact, it is talking about taking talking about? more away. Mr TRENORDEN: I am speaking about Who is paying the bills that have been in- trading hours. curred because of the incredible taxes implemented by both State and Federal Mr Gordon Hill: I don't think I have ever Govern ments over the last four or five years? it made a statement on trading hours. is the people who patronise the clubs and hotels Mr TRENORDEN: The Minister has made who are paying the bills, not the hoteliers or the statements about the attitudes of people in this clubs. State. He reminds me of an ostrich. His head is The membership of many clubs consists of buried deep in the sand and his tail feathers are elderly and retired people. My mother and a sticking up because he is a turkey. number of my aunts are in the 60-year-old and Mr Gordon Hill: Go back to reading your above bracket and they are keen on their speech. bridge, bowls, and golf. Most of their social Mr TRENORDEN: I will come back to what activity takes place in clubs. They have been I was saying. asked to meet a lot of the expenses. Very soon a pensioner will be paying $1 for a beer. It does The industry has paid for facilities and is not matter whether he drinks one or 20 beers, it being denied the use of them. Most countries in is a cost imposed on him. The consumer always the world are expanding their hours of trading. ends up paying. The Government is relying People have a reasonable attitude towards heavily on the 151 000 members of clubs and drinking and they enjoy the social discourse. the people who patronise hotels. They move in and out of establishments as they see fit. Their trading hours are not restricted. Mr Gordon Hill: It is pretty boring. There has been a forced reduction of facili- Mr TRENORDEN: I can remember a speech ties. Hotels and clubs have been unable to the Minister made during question time a operate the facilities that are available and in couple of weeks ago. It had to be the greatest many cases they are unable to employ the staff joke of all time. required. In many cases club membership has People who believe that the patrons of hotels fallen off and, as a result, membership fees do nothing but guzzle alcohol have their heads have been reduced. Voluntary labour has to be buried in the sand. A check of any hotel will used and that has occurred in the last couple of reveal that not all the persons in attendance are years. heavily involved in drinking alcohol. A great The costs faced by hotels and clubs in recent number of them are there for social discourse. years have been substantial, and it reads like a My experience has been that a number of bad novel. I will list just a few-BAD and FI D people drink only soft drink. They attend a taxes; indexation of excise, which, along with hotel mainly because their partners do so. In petrol, is one of those abominations that the some cases, they act as the skipper and that has Federal Government introduced a few years been a highly successful programme. Not all ago; the flow-on of the increase to State licence people who visit these establishments are fees: the return of indexation of wages and the heavily involved in consuming alcohol. three per cent productivity claim; and the tax People in the metropolitan area can drink on wine and special light beer which is absol- between 10 am and 10 pm on Sunday if they utely ridiculous. If the Government wants wish. All they have to do is to tmavel from hotel people to drink low alcohol beverages, they to hotel. Night clubs are open until 6 am and, should be promoted, not penalised. There has under the proposed legislation, hotels will be also been an increase in the cost of Govern- permitted to open at. 6 am. For the people who ment services, and general increases in in- believe that some members of the community surance, workers' compensation, and tobacco like to carry on with those sorts of activities, tax, and these all affect clubs and hotels. they will be able to carry on their drinking at In addition there has been a massive 52 per hotels after leaving night clubs. cent increase in licence fees and a five per cent It is probably taboo for me to talk about a stamp duty on fund-raising functions. All problem that will result from this legislation. If wages are at penalty rates because most of the members listened to what the Aboriginal 2668 2668[ASSEMBSLY] people arc asking for, they would know that Mr Donovan: It is not illogical, it is a ques- they do not want 6 am trading in many of the tion of being logical and using the resources problem towns, particularly those in the north you have to deal with the situations you can west. They will be put under a lot of pressure deal with. There is no denying that the problem by the proposed 6 am opening because on with consuming alcohol and driving afterwards weekdays and Saturdays it will only be a couple is a major headache on our roads and we can of hours after that that the liquor stores will do something about that. open their doors. Mr TRENORDEN: Why not do something That problem, together with the problem about function permits? They could be cut off associated with the casino, proves that the at eight o'clock. Alcohol definitely presents a Government has a double standard in this problem in connection with drink-driving and issue. I do not know how the casino can be also in some cases with home life and so on. shown in a shining light, yet it is permitted to I-ow should this problem be dealt with? We sell alcohol 24 hours a day while other licensed must acknowledge that a percentage of the premises have to operate under different pro- people in the community-I am not game to visions. It is beyond me. estimate the figure--cannot handle alcohol, If the argument is that the proposed trading just as other people cannot handle gambling, hours should operate because of tourism. drugs, and so on. However, why should the people in the Avon Valley. like other places in Government penalise those people in the com- this State, will need to be able to operate their munity who are keen to socialise with people at licensed premises after 8 pm. If some hotels different functions, particularly in the sporting choose to trade between I I am and 6 pm like the arena? Rottnest hotel does, what do the tourists do after At many golf, -tennis, cricket, and football 6 pm? clubs the members are still playing sport at 7 pm. Mr Donovan: Buy their drinks and take them For instance, in country areas-I use my home town as an example-football teams travel home. to their game, collect their gear when the Mrs Beggs: They can go fishing or have a game is finished and then gravel back to their walk along the beach. home town and hold a social function. At that Mr TRENOR DEN: A lot of people do not function trophies and awards are presented for want to do that. Why should they be restricted the best and fairest players, etc. By the time the in their activities? Most of the European team returns to its home town it is close to countries which are heavily involved in tourism eight o'clock. It can be demonstrated that that do not have restricted trading hours. is the situation with most sporting clubs, es- pecially in country areas- Those social oc- I noticed in today's paper an article written casions are very important to people;, they are by Ann Treweek, who had interviewed Dr Don the basis of any community. it does not matter Webb. He spoke about a zero limit of alcohol whether it is Cotlesloe. Scarborough, Northam, under the age of 21. This is a totally or Mandurah. My mother lives in Mandurah unenforceable situation because the body can and one of her great joys is to play golf in the produce naturally up to 0.1 per cent of alcohol. afternoon and then go back to the clubroomn to It is a ludicrous position to take. play bridge. It is totally unenforceable. He ignores the Mr Donovan: To have the grog. fact that 70 per cent of alcohol is consumed away from pubs and hotels. I am not saying Mr TRENORDEN: She does not drink but that is a problem but if the Government buys she wants to stay with her friends at the club into the argument that trading hours must be and to participate in the fellowship. What is restricted because people are consuming al- wrong with that? Government members are cohol and then driving, it must tackle the main saying it is a sin. They have their heads buried causes first. I refer to function permits, deep in the sand. weddings, 21st birthday parties, restaurants This is an antisocial Bill. The industry has with function permits, and so on. More alcohol already been heavily taxed- is consumed in restaurants than is consumed in hotels Or pubs. Therefore, why is the Govern- Dr Alexander: You are talking about the ment not tackling those areas? It sees them as liquor industry then? political dynamite. Why is the Government il- Mr TRENORDEN: Does the member deny logical? that it is an industry? (Wednesday, 17 June 1987] 262669

Dr Alexander There are two sides to this tion I think the Government should consider industry, those who panticipate and those who adjusting the trading hours, particularly on provide. Sundays. Mr TRENORDEN: It may interest members The Bill is not totally unacceptable. It has to know that 151 000 people participate in that obviously been given a great deal of thought industry. I do not think they all vote for the and I do not think the industry condemns the National Party, although we have more mem- Bill in its entirety. It goes a long way towards bers among them than do the Liberal Party and satisfying those aspects of the industry which the Labor Party put together. require some adjustment. However, it is a mat- ter of conjecture as to why, although the Mrs Bes: You allow sheep to be members. trading hours were successfully adjusted during do you? the time of the America's Cup and certain ben- Mr TRENORDEN: Yes, we do. We try to efits were derived from them, those amended stop them being fleeced, which is what happens hours were not incorporated in this Bill. to them on the Government side. On our side I wonder whether in fact the Government we let them keep their wool. does not consider the people of Western Australia to be as sophisticated as the overseas The people involved in the club industry are visitors who came here for the cup. Perhaps the average people; they are not alcoholics, they do Minister can answer that at some stage. It not go home and beat their wives or drive while seems to me that the bias in favour of overseas drunk. In the well-run hotels in the country visitors clearly indicates the Government's often husbands, wives, and children arrive view of Western Australians-that is, that they together for barbecues and it is very much a fam- lack the acumen and the sophistication of the ily occasion. There is not a great deal of drinking people who came to Western Australia during and driving; and the patrons from one hotel the America's Cup period. have not been involved in a prosecution for this offence for a considerable time. Usually one It is in respect of two aspects of the Bill that I member of a party will agree not to drink and would like to devote some time. Firstly I refer will drive the vehicle So that the other members to the 6.00 am opening. That appears to me to are free to do as they wish. be of little benefit to anyone. If I could elabor- ate on that, in the outback towns which are Also, not everyone who goes to an hotel frequented by Aboriginal Austral ians-towns drinks alcohol. That is another fallacy in the such as Nullagine, Laverton, Wiluna, Halls argument. The same applies to sporting clubs: Creek, Fitzroy Crossing. Mt Magnet. for many of the members the first priority is to Meekatharra, and Menzies-there is always a participate in the sport and the second priority hotel. I think it is too much to expect Aborigi- is the social activity. Some people leave after nal people-obviously not all Aboriginal the sporting activity, some stay and drink al- people but those who have a predilection for cohol, and others stay but do not drink. They alcohol and unlike white Australians do not stay to watch the presentation of awards. have a great deal of resistance to it-to cope with this situation. I think it is one of the great From the article which appeared in the Press human tragedies of Australia that alcohol was today one would assume that everyone is a introduced to these people; and I am very con- beer-guzzler. I do not intend to speak at great cerned about the opening of hotels at 6.00 am, length because I would like to go to bed at some which is around daybreak at most times of the time. In the Committee stage we shall move year. If the hotels are opened so early the first amendments to the trading hours: On Monday customers in the morning in these particular to Saturday, to delete trading from six o'clock towns will be the long-suffering Aboriginal to 10 o'clock and on Saturdays to delete trading Australians. hours from 10 o'clock to I I o'clock and add trading hours from eight o'clock to 10 o'clock. Serious consideration should be given to this matter of early openings. It should be looked at MR LIGHTFOOT (Murchison-Eyre) [ 12.38 in a responsible way. I do not think the Minis- am]: I do not rise to speak against the Bill. ter would find the industry opposed to such an Some impmovements could be made to the Bill adjustment, particularly if those hours were and I would like to briefly comment on that shifted from 6.00 am to 8.00 am on the five or aspect. It is true, as the member for Avon has six days and were used to offset a couple of said, that hotels, particularly in country areas, extra hours on Sunday. I can recall, as indeed are the centre of social activity. In that connec- other members perhaps can, the bad old days 2670 2670[ASSEMBLY] in other pants of this nation where there was ance to alcohol and that lack of resistance has 6.00 pm closing. It was commonly referred to been demonstrated for decades, yet we still as the "six o'clock swill". Men knocked off at have not learnt. We will finally destroy those 5.30 pm in those days and scurried for all they people in the name of equality and fairness. I were worth to the bar of the nearest hotel: they find that a tragedy of unbelievable proportions. grabbed the biggest drink they could down as if I trust the Government will look seriously at they had not had a drink of any kind for three this matter for that reason; that is. it will affect or four days before that time. They were so people who do not have the resistance to al- affected by alcohol that the flow-on through cohol that white Australians have. Couple that society was devastating at the family level, at fact with kava and we will open up a Pandora's the employment level, and so on. I can see that box of problems for these unique Australians. danger recurring. It puzzles me as to why we have these restric- The anomaly is not completely super- tive Sunday trading laws. The casino licence imposed in respect of the proposed 8.00 pm allows for 24-hour trading and restaurants, as I Sunday closing, but I can see there would be understand it, may serve liquor for 24 hours of some analogy with the closing time proposed in the day every day of the week. Night clubs may the Bill for Sunday evenings. I would like to see trade until 6.00 am except on Sundays, yet that 8.00 pmn closing time on Sunday extended another part of the industry has restricted to 10.00 pm and the 6.00 am opening on week- trading hours, which are acceptable neither to days brought forward to an 8.00 am opening. I the industry nor, more importantly, to our do not think there will be great opposition to society. that from any responsible section of the West- As the member for Avon said these hotels are emn Australian community. often the only centre of entertainment, cama- I would like to touch on another matter in raderie, and socialisation in country areas. relation to Aborigines. I am sure I am within It will be an offence to retail liquor under the parameters of this debate to mention kava, certain conditions at these places after eight and the availability of that drug. The Govern- o'clock, and an offence to consume it a certain ment is proposing to introduce early openings time after that. That is illogical and unaccept- which will not be limited to the metropolitan able. area. In any case. Aborigines are not limited to those areas outside the metropolitan region. It is not surprising that some of the hotels Now we have to contend with the introduction and taverns that pepper the outback and the of kava to this State. I know that the Minister country are diminishing. They are diminishing for Aboriginal Affairs, Mr Ernie Bridge, is most because of the downturn in the rural economy. concerned about this matter and so are most They are diminishing too because of the indis- people in this House. I am certainly no excep- criminate application of taxes by both Federal tion; I predict that the drug will be used in and State Governments. conjunction with alcohol and it will prove to be I think my colleague mentioned some of formidable. Kava can be mixed with spirits and those taxes, though I am not sure if he with methylated spirits, which would be even mentioned them all, but I would like to read more devastating. Couple that fact with the them if I may. The taxes which have been 6.00 am opening for hotels and I wonder imposed in recent years include the BAD and whether we are not putting the final nail in the FID taxes, which are well-named. There is the coffin of this unique race of people, the indexation of excise, the flow on increase in Australian Aborigines. State licence fees, the return to indexation of I think it is too much for anyone who has a wages regardless of profitability, and a tax on knowledge of the bush and an understanding of wine and special light beer, which I find pre- Aborigines to think that we can couple the posterous. It is preposterous that there should be availability of alcohol and kava with the early a tax on light beer. The cost of Government ser- opening of hotels. Why was kava ever allowed vices, which are some of the highest in Australia, to come into this State, or the nation for that have increased. There have been increases in in- matter? The logic and morality of it completely surance and in workers' compensation and escape me. I do not know why it has not been superannuation, with a 52 per cent increase in li- banned like opium or marijuana. We simply do cence fees. not need early openings in the bush and we do In spite of the promises prior to the last elec- not need another drug for the Aboriginal tion that taxes in this State would not be people of this country. They have little resist- increased at More than the inflation rate, there [Wednesday, 17 June 1987] 272671 was a 52 per cent increase in the licence fee. decided to make some small changes to the legis- That did not win any friends. Stamp duty is lation which we have yet to see, and I will bear in five per cent up an fundraising supplies, and mind the Minister's comments. there are other increases I have not mentioned. In terms of the liquor industry, the Govern- It can be seen that not only have the smaller ment has chosen to ignore both sides of the hotels in many country areas-and I have argument, taking neither on board. I was stayed in many of them-suffered the imposts interested to hear the comments of the Minis- of these almost insurmountable charges, but ter in her second reading speech indicating that they are now to suffer from restricting trading the Government had received hundreds of hours. complaints about the America's Cup trading hours experiment. I did not receive one that I The Government will say to them, "You can- can recall-not one. It would seem to me that not even regulate your Sunday trading hours; the experiment was a very successful one. I do we will regulate them for you and make sure not think this Bill goes too far, in fact it is going you do not even open, regardless of whether backwards, as the member for Murchison-Eyre you sell alcohol or not. We will make sure you has indicated in terms of the 6.00 am opening. do not open after eight o'clock at night, even The Government should reconsider its de- for the purpose of entertainment." That is cision. another kick in the teeth for country people. The Minister also, as the other two members May I sum up my brief contribution tonight on this side of the House indicated, ignored by again imploring the Minister and this House cost and other pressures being faced by hotels to look at the early opening aspect of the Bill. It and clubs in recent times which impact on is high time that we gave those unique Aborigi- profitability. Each of the members mentioned nal people particularly a chance at least to those things, including the wine tax, the licence govern themselves by this small regulation and fee, and the casino. stop early opening. In those towns I have mentioned I know who will be there. They are The member for Avon also referred to the addicted to it. It is a tragedy of unequalled change in drinking habits. When I was a lot human proportions. If only for that reason- younger an awful lot more drinking was done and I can find othes-I ask that serious con- in hotels than is the case today, and a lot less sideration be given to extending Sunday trading was done in restaurants or in the home. That hours from 8.00 pmn to 10.00 pm. forfeiting the has changed, as the member for Avon has said. two hours from 6.00 am to 8.00 am on other Members may remember what happened in the days. days of the six o'clock swill, but now we have a much more educated community in their ap- MR MacKINNON (Murdoch-Leader of proach to drinking. the Opposition) [ 12.54 am): I have a few ques- tions to which I hope the Minister will respond. Mr Trenorden: There is the capital gains tax We must recall what has led to this legislation. as well. and that was the America's Cup experiment. It Mr MacKINNON: That is so, and the fringe was interesting to go through that period be- benefits tax has also affected the hotel industry cause we had two experiments, one with retail quite significantly. So in recent times there has trading hours and one with hotel trading hours. been a whole raft of things. In each case the response was different. In Mr Bertram: What has the capital gains tax retail trading hours the response from the gen- got to do with it? eral public was in support of the extension of trading hours. On the other hand, the oppo- Mr MacKINNON: It affects all businesses sition, certainly from the small traders rather which have a goodwill factor attached to them. than the larger ones, was almost overwhelming. Mrs Beggs: Hotels are much more valuable There was opposition to the extension of the because the Government has introduced a trading hours. moratorium. You are absolutely right. We In terms of the liquor industry, there was sup- could lift the moratorium, which would reduce port from both the consumer and the licensee, be the capital gains tax which the hotelier would it publican or club licensee. In the first instance have to pay on the sale of the hotel. we had a split point of view, and the Govern- Mr MacKINNON: That veiled threat seems ment chose to listen to the retailer and legislate typical of this Government. It shows a remark- or otherwise accordingly. The Government has able ignorance of what is happening in the 2672 2672[ASSEMBLY]

country, but in due course during the Com- that town, rather than having to do what the mittee debate the question of Sunday trading licensing laws then and now will force people to will be examined. participate in, particularly in country areas, I understand the member for Avon is to move and also in city places. some amendments concerning Sunday trading. I So rather than solving the problem of road will be interested to hear them and listen to his fatalities, I believe the restrictions in place, par- point of view, but it is my intention to support ticularly on Sundays, only add to the problems, those extensions, if they are reasonable, on the as my personal experience in the country basis of a better extension being available. [ look indicated. I think the experience in the city has forward to hearing the Minister's comments re- been that when one has an extended trading garding the 6.00 am opening in response to the hour period on Sunday, there are not the sorts comments of the member for Murchison-Eyre. of problems that are brought about by having Let me hasten to add that there are some Sunday sessions. When I was younger, I used to benefits in the legislation, in case the Minister go to the surf clubs. Members might recall the thinks I am being totally negative. There are sessions they used to have at the Ocean Beach some positive aspects to the changes she has Hotel. There was a Sunday session, and the made, particularly with the increased flexibility people were jammed in there. It was a real extended to licensed premises in the eight-hour problem, because it was only a two-hour period for both clubs and hotels allowing them session, and it was like honey to a bee. to trade within the extended times. This is an Those are the sorts of problems that can excellent idea. It is being looked forward to by arise. Under a sensible 10.00 am to 10.00 pm many people in the industry. It is a sensible arrangement, there is not going to be a session proposal, particularly for clubs in country areas like that, and people can have a drink when where they may have a full licence and trade they feel like it. That will take a lot of pressure where they could not trade previously. off high traffic and high public use areas, like One of the problems about Sunday trading the ocean-side hotels in the summer time, and that I think the Minister should take into ac- like the Nedlands Park Hotel, where there are count is the one that the member for Avon and some problems. It would seem that the Sunday others referred to, and it happens in the city in extension should be supported for those relation to sporting clubs. I recount an experi- reasons. ence I had when I worked in Narembeen. In I would like the Minister to indicate how the fact, the Leader of the National Party and I Government intends to handle the question of used to play football for the same team in complaints. The Minister has referred in the Narembeen when I was up there for a season. legislation to the fact that complaints will now When we used to play in areas like Southern be lodged with the Director of Liquor Licens- Cross, Merredin, and even down in Shackleton, ing. The member for Greenough and I have had we used to play football, finish at about 5 correspondence recently from a man in o'clock, have a shower, get organised, and have Geraldton, Ernie Wade, talking about a hotel in a yak with the blokes we played against, which that area, the Marina Hotel, with which he has would take us through to 6 o'clock. which in had some problems. Is the director then going to those days was the end of the drinking time at send out a team to investigate what is happening the clubs. We would then start to drive home. in the area, or does he just call in local councils to assist and advise him? How will that com- Of course, when we were in Merredin, we would start to drive home, and we would go plaints procedure be undertaken so that all sides, both the licensees and the complainants, back to the Muntadgin pub, and drink there for a while, and then drive home. However. have a proper hearing? Muntadgin was still a fair way from Secondly, I received approaches today from Narembeen. I remember one young bloke on licensed stores operators, and I have received our team. Noakie Cheetham, did that one night approaches previously concerning Sunday and ended up just about writing himself off on trading. I am not arguing in favour of that at a tree on the way home, whereas if there had the present time, but I would be interested to been a proper and sensible drinking hour ar- know what the Minister has decided in terms of rangement where we could have gone back to licensed stores trading on Sunday, and the Narembeen and had a drink in the club and reasons for the decisions in that regard, so that then gone home, we could have walked home if we can have on the record for that association's we had wanted to because we were living in benefit the Minister's views. [Wednesday, l7iJune 1987] 267367

Thirdly, I would be interested to know-and America's Cup period, prior to that time I had I am sure the Minister will touch on this any- negotiations with sections of the industry about way-why the Government has rejected the what they saw as the need for their particular suggestion for 10.00 am to 10.00 pm. or 11.00 section of the industry to extend or make more am to 10.00 pm on Sundays. I would like to flexible their trading hours. know the reason why the Government made Cabinet decided at that time that we should the other decision to extend trading hours back wait until after the America's Cup extended to 6.00 am. when I think that came as a sur- trading hours period was completed, and then prise to everybody, including those in the in- look at the situation again when we would be in dustry. What was the logic behind that de- the process of reviewing the total Liquor Act. cision? It may be that people in the industry so that we would have the value of that experi- asked for it, but l am not aware of that. ence on which to base some decisions. That is The final question does not particularly re- exactly what happened, and while that period late to the Bill, but a question has been put to was very successful and I think generally the me by many people in recent times, including public accepted the extended trading hours those from the Willetton Sports Club, which is very well, there were some problems that arose in my electorate-the only licensed club in my out of that. For example, the Leader of the electorate, but a very good one-about why Opposition just mentioned that he is curious to there is the restriction on members in clubs know what is going Lo happen with licensed taking their children into the club. What con- stores. During that America's Cup extended sideration has been given to altering those par- trading period, it was not considered appropri- ticular sections of the Act that relate thereto? ate for licensed stores to trade on Sundays at The Willetton Sports Club has a very strong all, although many of them did make requests family basis, and people go there to have din- under that special legislation to actually trade. ner on Friday. Saturday, and Sunday nights. It I considered when processing those appli- has a great family atmosphere, and it is the sort cations that I could not demonstrate a need for of thing we should be encouraging. The com- them to open on Sundays when in fact they plaint has been made to me that the current were not opening under the parent Act. So restrictions are too severe and we should be while I can agree with many of the propositions giving some consideration to lifting them. I put forward by the member for Avon and the would appreciate the Minister's comments in Leader of the Opposition about the need to that regard. look more closely at what should happen in With those remarks, I indicate that I will not regard to Sunday trading hours, I am a little oppose the Bill at the second reading stage, but bemused by the fact that the member for I will certainly watch with interest the amend- Murchison-Eyre suddenly seems to have a very ments which will be moved by the member for great concern about the effect the early trading Avon, and he will have my support in terms of hours of 6.00 am to 10.00 am might have on the Sunday trading hour extension amend- the Aboriginal population throughout the ments that!I believe he is going to move. State. MRS DEC0S (Whitford-Minister for I make it very clear that 6.00 am trading was Racing and Gaming) [ 1.09 am]: These amend- requested by the industry. I could not really ments to the Liquor Act were destined to create understand why that was necessary. As a mat- the same sort of emotional debate that has been ter of fact, at a function I attended tonight a created every single time the question of licens- hotelier spoke to me about the legislation. I ing hours has been introduced into this Parlia- told him there were some amendments which ment. The members are right, it is a very propose that the 6.00 am to 10.00 am trading emotional issue, but it is also extremely hours not be accepted but that we have complex and difficult because there are many increased trading hours on Sundays. He said he sections of the industry, and each section of the would be unhappy with that because he industry considers that it has a right to trade at enjoyed the 6.00 am to 10.00 am trading. a certain time, perhaps free of competition As members can see, it would be impossible from other sections of the industry. to make all sections of the industry happy un- In bringing these amendments to the Parlia- less we totally deregulated all licensed trading ment, I was aware that I would not be able to hours. If we did that they would be able to satisfy all sections of the industry. If we cast trade whenever they wanted to. However, I do our minds back just a little while to when we not imagine that we would be able to make were going through that very successful everybody completely satisfied even then, be- 2674 2674[ASSEM BLY) cause they would say the competition was too amendment to the Liquor Act to this place they tough and perhaps their profitability would de- gave me a warning that they did not want me to cline. bring to the Parliament any further amend- Mr MacKinnon: Are you working towards ments to the Act until such time as the total total deregulation? review was ready to be brought to the House. Mrs BEGGS: I have always made the point The Leader of the Opposition said that I had that anything as sensitive and difficult as said in my second reading speech that I trading hours for the sale of liquor should be an received hundreds of complaints. I did not say evolutionary rather than a revolutionary pro- that at all; I mentioned that the trading hours cess. That has been the experience all around attracted some criticism from various public the world. We could not suddenly go from a sources, and the member for Nedlands would regulated to a totally deregulated situation. I be well aware of many of those complaints be- am certainly not saying that we should have a cause there is one hotel in his electorate which totally deregulated system in Western was trading until 10.00 pm prior to the Australia;, I do not think that is necessary, and 1 America's Cup period, but which is now the do not think that the industry would want to subject of court action. see that happen at this stage. either. Mr Lewis: There is one in my electorate, too. Getting back to the matter of 6-00 am open- Mrs BEGOS: Is there? ing, there are amendments on the Notice Paper Under the Act there can be objections to the which suggest we should not have that. The licence and the way it operates only at the time member for Murchison-Eyre put forward some the licence is to be renewed. Under this Bill very convincing arguments as to why I should that will no longer be the case and anybody can accept those amendments with regard to make an objection-a local authority or any 6.00 am to £0.00 am trading on those six days member of the public who is aggrieved by of the week where it applies in the amendments something that might be happening on the li- to the Bill. I will give that serious consider- censed premise can make a complaint to the ation. Director of the Licensing Authority at any The difficult situation I find myself in at this time. Of course, they would have to stage is that while we are reviewing the whole substantiate that complaint and the director of Act, anyone who has had to work with this the authority would then set in train the vari- Liquor Act will know that it is an absolute and ous investigations. I presume he would consult complete mess. It is very difficult for people with the licensee of the hotel and that dis- who do not study it regularly, as we do. to cussions would take place in a very conciliatory understand it; and the industry is well aware manner to see if the matter could be resolved in that we arc in the process of reviewing the an amicable way. I understand local authorities whole Act. would do the same things that they do now from time to time, and have noise meters and In the recent meetings I have had with the those sorts of things positioned to ensure the industry I have indicated that at the end of the complaint was valid. If it was, there would be America's Cup period there was no intention at some consideration given to reducing the all and no commitment by the Government hours, and so on. The question about the li- that it would immediately implement any censed stores was very appropriate. I too have changes to licensing hours., In fact, if I had not had representations from licensed stores to in- bmought these amendments to the Parliament clude in this amendment trading hours on the industry would have gone back to pre- Sundays. In my meeting with them I explained America's Cup trading hours;, that is, they what would be the position with hotels, and would have had to trade from 10.00 am to said that the Government had agreed to only 10.00 pm, and apply for entertainment permits six hours' trading for hotels between the hours to trade after that until midnight. Restaurants of 11.00 am and 8.00 pm on Sundays. At that would have reverted to closing between meeting the licensed store representatives told 3.30 pm and 5.30 pm, which is a ridiculous me they would be quite happy to accept that provision. and would not press for further trading hours, However, I considered it a reasonable re- but that if under any circumstances hotels were quest by sections of the industry at least to try to get further trading hours on Sundays they to get the legislation up, even though we were felt that because the equivalent of licensed not in a position to review the whole Act. Some stores are attached to many of the hotels, the members may recall that when I last brought an licensed stores would lobby very hard to be (Wednesday, 17 June 19871 272675 able to open on Sundays as hotels do when they any section of the industry would think that sell packaged liquor. So that is one other con- that was an improvement. I know the Oppo- sideration I will have to take into account. If, in sition has consulted the AKA and perhaps it fact, I was prepared to accept an amendment to could go back to that association. If any the Sunday trading hours, I would have to go amendments are passed in the upper House back and consult with the licensed stores. Per- which I cannot approve, it would lead to a haps then I would find myself in the position of stalemate when the Bill comes back here. Par- having to bring in an amendment of my own to liament is due to finish soon, and it would introduce trading hours for licensed stores on delay the passage of the Bill, with the same Sundays. result. I suggest the Opposition or the industry The question about members' children in might like to get back to me and indicate what clubs will be addressed as we review the whole they want. Liquor Act. I understand the problems that Mr MacKinnon: Is the only obiection to the face clubs in regard to this matter, particularly extension from 8.00 pm to 10.00 pm on Sunday where juveniles are playing sport, which is from the licensed stores? quite often the case, yet may not be on the licensed premises for any length of time. I Mrs BEGGS: No. The other objection was understand that is creating many problems for that the Government took into account the licensed clubs which are fostering and encour- concern of all sections of the community about aging junior sport, I am quite convinced we taking trading hours to the extent where they would be able to correct that situation when we were almost totally deregulated. We would be bring the total review of the Act before the given virtually the same sort of hours on a Parliament. Sunday as previously operated on weekdays. Regardless of what members think about the Mr MacKinnon: When would you expect validity of the argument presented in today's that to be? paper in relation to the effect of trading hours, Mrs BEGGS: In the spring session. We actu- we all have to have some concern for what is ally have a draft document which will go before taking place on our roads. I understand the the Liquor Industry Council next week to start Opposition would be just as sympathetic to the discussion and consultation. that as the Government, because members op- Basically this Bill is about three things. It posite quite often get up in Parliament and talk seeks to change the trading hours of certain about the problems of police manpower. Im- sections of the industry; to reduce compulsory aginec wh at sort of st ra in woulId be placed on the trading hours, which is welcomed by all sec- Police Force if police had to be out and about tions of the industry, particularly those hotels for longer and later hours on Sunday night which in the past have had to trade during policing the closing time of hotels at 10.00 pmn. unprofitable periods- That is a matter no member opposite raised. Mr MacKinnon: And clubs. Mr Trenorden: Other things happen in the Mrs BEGGS: No, clubs are not forced to town after the pub shuts at 8.00 pm. There are open. As well, the rights of objection have been still parties and functions. It does not mean the improved by the Bill so objectors will not have police knock off. to wait until renewal time in order to make Mrs BEGGS: Sure, but as the Minister re- cornplaints. sponsible for this Act I cannot take into ac- I will find it very difficult, and I think the count only the views of the industry. I have to industry will too, if I accept an amendment take account of the views of the public and the from the member for Avon to eliminate trading very serious doubts raised in the minds of between 6.00 am and 10.00 am during week- people who I think deserve a lot or respect, and days. I do not think that I can under any cir- I have in mind people like Professor Webb cumstance accept the amendment to expand from the Road Trauma Committee. I do not the trading hours on Sundays for hotels and think we can discount that; to do otherwise taverns without consulting with licensed stores, would not be to act responsibly. because that is the commitment I gave them. I have spelt out the reasons why the Govern- That would mean that this Bill would have to ment brought the amendments before the Par- lie on the Table until the spring session of Par- liament. We know the Bill is not perfect be- liament and all sections of the industry would cause we have had the same representations suffer because they would go back to the pre- from industry as have members opposite. America's Cup trading hours. I do not believe Deregulation of trading hours, as I have said, is 2676 2676[ASSEMBLY] evolutionary not revolutionary, and maybe as member can tell me the name of the Minister we progress through the next three months perhaps I might remember in what context it reviewing the Liquor Act we can look at the was said. situation again. Mr Cash: Your difficulty in recollecting, Mr Cash: Do you support a 0.05 blood al- things is very similar to that of the Premier's. cohol level? Mrs BEGGS: I am being perfectly honest. I Mrs BEGGS: That has absolutely nothing to recollect better at 1.30 am. If the member tells do with my portfolio. me the name of the Minister I may be able to answer the question. Mr Cash: Are you aware of any threats by your ministerial colleagues that the Govern- Mr Cash: You know the name. ment was considering introducing a 0.05 level? Mrs BEGGS: Is it the Minister for Police and Mrs BEOGS: That is not a threat to the in- Emergency Services? Is that who the member is dustry. suggesting made the threat? Mr Cash: I do not take anything the Minister Mr Lightfoot: It is an indirect threat. for Police and Emergency Services says Mrs BEGGS: I do not think that is correct at seriously, and I do not think anyone else does. all. Mrs BEGGS: Can you indicate whether it Mr Cash: You are not denying certain of was the Minister for Police and Emergency Ser- your Ministers have said they will encourage vices who made the threat? Is that what the the Government to introduce a 0.05 blood al- member is suggesting? cohol level? Mr MacKinnon: It could have been the Min- Mrs BEGGS: I am not aware of any threats isters for Health, Housing, Education, Police- made by my colleagues to the industry. It is Mrs BEGGS: I cannot answer the question. irrelevant in terms of what we are discussing For the Opposition's benefit, the Minister for now. Police and Emergency Services was not there. Mr Cash: I do not believe it is irrelevant. I am Mr Cash: The Minister for Police and surprised you should deny you were at the Emergency Services is the least of my worries. meeting. Mrs BEOGS: To be perfectly honest I think Mrs BEGGS: I was at a meeting, but the the Minister really gets up the member for Mt member will have to be more specific. Which Lawley's nose. Minister said that? Is he prepared to name the I have pointed out the difficulties which will Minister? be presented to the industry if amendments are Mr Cash: I am sure you are aware. made to the Bill because it will delay passage of the Bill and we will go back to the situation Mrs BEGGS: The member for M9 Lawley which existed prior to the America's Cup. made the statement; which Minister threatened Mr MacKinnon: That is not a threat. the industry with 0-05? Mrs BEGOS: No, it is a fact-, it is not a Mr MacKinnon: Why should we tell you who threat. I commend the Bill to the House. our moles are? Question put and passed. Mrs BEGGS: They must be members of the Bill read a second time. AHA because they were there. If members op- posite are suggesting members of the AHA are BILLS (2): RETURNED moles, that is okay. I. Superannuation and Family Benefits Mr Cash: I am surprised you deny one of Amendment Bill. Your Ministers said that. 2. Government Railways Amendment Mrs BEGGS: When one goes to a luncheon Bill. at which 16 people are present, one does not Bills returned from the Council without always hear every word spoken. I do not recall amendment. any Minister making any threat, but if the House adjourned 0 1.29 am (Thursday) [Wednesday, 17 June 19871 267767

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE (5) How will the task force be funded in the future? (6) How long has the task force been PORTS AND HARBOURS operating? Fretnanile: Stoppages (7) What physical improvement to the 1247. Mr HASSELL, to the Minister for Cossack townsite has been achieved to Transport: date by the task force? (1) Further to his answer to question 917 (8) What funds have actually been on Wednesday, 27 May 1987, were expended to date on physical im- any of' the stoppages referred to in his provements in the Cossack townsite, answer approved or paid stoppages? since the inception of the task force? (2) If so, which ones? (9) Of the funds expended as per question (8) above- (3) Was full pay deducted from all em- ployees in respect of the full period of (a) how much was provided by the all stoppages including those not State Government; covered in reply to question (1)? (b) how much was provided by the Mr TROY replied: Federal Government? (1) and (2) Information is not readily Mr PEARCE replied: available on arrangements which may (1) To investigate options and formulate have been made between private em- recommendations with respect to the ployers and their employees. future conservation of the historic In all stoppages involving port auth- town of Cossack. ority employees, other than safety (2) $4 500. issues, full pay was deducted from em- (3) The task force is chaired by Mrs Pam ployees for the full period of all stop- Buchanan, MLA, member for Pilbara. pages. It consists of representatives from- (3) I am not aware of the stoppages re- Cossack Restoration and Devel- ferred to by the member in his ques- opment Association; tion. If he could be more specific about the details of the stoppages to Shire of Roebourne; which he refers. I will reply to the Western Australian Tourism question. Commission; With regard to safety incidents where Building Management Authority; the port authority considered the cess- Office of the Minister for Edu- ation justified, payment was made. cation and Planning; State Planning Commission;, ENVIRON MENT Chamber of Mines; Cossack: Task Force Department of Lands Admin- 1248. Mr LEWIS, to the Minister for stration; Planning: State Energy Commission; (1) Referring to the Cossack townsile study and management plan task Water Authority of Western force, what is the purpose of the task Australia. force and what are its terms of refer- All members are Pilbara residents ex- ence? cept the representatives of the Minis- (2) What has been the operating Cost, i n- ter and the State Planning Com- clusive of air fares and accommo- mission. dation, to datc? (4) and (5) Through the State Planning (3) What is the membership composition Commission. of the task force? (6) Nine months. (4) How is the operation of the task force (7) The purpose of the task force is not to presently funded? undertake physical improvements. 2678 2678[ASSEMBLY]

(8) and (9) In June 1986 the State (3) How much of the sentence remained Government provided $13 500 to to be served when he was released on eradicate a plague of tropical termites parole? which were ravaging the historic (4) Are there any interstate agreements buildings of Cossack. which require parolees with In November 1986 the State Govern- convictions for any, or certain, of- ment provided $6 000 to secure the fences to be required not to leave the roof of the police barracks at Cossack State in which the parole was granted for the coming cyclone season. until the completion of the sentence, In April 1987 the State Government particularly for crimes of violence? committed $151 000 from its bicen- (5) If not, will he consider introducing the tennial programme to stabilise build- suggestion to other States? ings at Cossack in danger of further (6) I f not, why not? deterioration and to provide better fa- Mr PETER DOWDING replied: cilities and services for visitors. (1) to (3) It is assumed the member is referring to Darren Osborne. While PRISONERS his trial is pending, it would be inap- Remission Rate: Comparison propriate to comment on these mat- ters. 1270. Mr CASH, to the Minister representing the Minister for Corrective Services: (4) to (6) Parolees may legally transfer from one State to another pursuant to (t) How does the remission rate on prison the Parole Orders (Transfer) Act or an sentences in Western Australia com- order by a State Parole Board specifi- pare with other States in Australia? cally authorising interstate movement. (2) (a) Has his department considered Parole boards already have the auth- the home detention scheme which ority to also forbid interstate move- operates in some other States; ment. (b) if so, does the scheme have merit; (c) if so, does he intend introducing COMMUNITY SERVICES: MEALS-ON- such a scheme into Western WHEELS Australia? Cockburn: Electoral Roll Print-out Mr PETER DOWDING replied: 1288. Mr CASH, to the Minister for (I) Remission rates between the States Parliamentary and Electoral Reform: are broadly similar, with the only sig- (1) Is he aware that the City of Cockburn nificant variations being with respect is about to undertake a sample survey to short-term sentences-i.e. up to 90 of residents in the Cockburn area to days-in Queensland and Tasmania. identify the need for home care sup- (2) The concept of a home detention port such as meals-on-wheels? scheme is under consideration by the (2) Is he further aware that the State Elec- Prisons Department. toral Ornice has advised a fee of $5 10 is required to provide a computer print-out of all residents in the area CRIME over the age of 65 years? Murder Charge: Albany (3) Is it considered that such a cost is jus- 1272. Mr WATT, to the Minister tified for the information which is to representing the Minister for Corrective be used to assist the community in Services: this welfare scheme? (t) With respect to the person recently (4) Will he invite his department to re- charged at Albany with murder and consider its proposed fee with a view other offences, is it a fact that he was to offering the Cockburn council a on parole after serving part of a prison more realistic fee? sentence in Queensland? Mr BRYCE replied: (2) For what offences was he convicted I will reply to the member in writing and on what dates? in due course. [Wednesday. I7lJune 19871 267967

ABATTOI RS (2) No. Lamb Marketing Referendum (3) The officer would be subject to de- 1297. Mr SCHELL, to the Minister for partmental discipline. Agriculture: (4) Nil. What was the eligibility laid down for (5) No evidence has been forthcoming of referendums conducted by the unauthorised repairs. Government on lamb marketing? Mr GRILL replied: WOODCHIPPING December 1970 referendum- MacLean Sawmills Ply Lid: En vironmental A person who sold 100 or more Studies lambs suitable for slaughter in 1301. Mr STEPHENS. to the Minister for any one of the years 1966-70 was Conservation and Land Management: eligible to vote. (1) Has MacLean Sawmills( 1966) Ply Ltd November 1983 referendum- of Denmark been required to prepare Producers eligible to vote were an environmental review and manage- those who in 1981-82 or 1982- ment plan and/or an environmental 83- impact study for its proposal to utilise (a) had delivered 100 or more natural forests on private land? lambs to the Western (2) Will he explain why the Western Australian Lamb Marketing Australian Chip and Pulp Company Board;, or Pty Ltd was not required to prepare a (b) had delivered 100 or more similar document to support its inten- lambs directly to an abattoir tion to continue logging operations on operator or wholesale private land outside the Manjimup butcher or woodchip licence area over and above its present environmental review and (c) had sold 100 or more lambs management plan-environmental im- at auction for slaughter. pact study for operating in State for- With respect to (b) and (c), docu- ests? mentary evidence was required to Mr HODGE replied: establish eligibility to vote. (1) Yes. POLICE (2) The WACAP's present environmental review and management programme- Radar Guns: Field Repairs draft environmental impact statement 1299. Dr WATSON, to the Minister for addresses the company's existing and, Police and Emergency Services: more particularly, proposed continu- (1) How many field repairs to radar guns ation of operations in State forest and have been undertaken by police on private property. The ERMP-draft officers? EIS is currently available for public comment (2) Are police authorised to do their own until 6 July. field repairs on radar guns? (3) If not, what penalty, if any, can be DANGEROUS GOODS imposed on a police officer who Traffic Accidents: Great Eastern Highway carries out amateur repairs on radar 1303. Mr THOMPSON, to the Minister for guns in the field? Transport: (4) What penalties have been inflicted on (1) How many accidents involving police officers for such repairs? transportation of dangerous goods (5) What action has been taken regarding have occurred on Great Eastern Highl- the evidence produced by those radar way in the last 12 months? guns which have been subject to un- (2) Has one company been involved in qualified and unchecked repairs? more than one of those accidents? Mr GORDON HILL replied: (3) If yes to (2), what is the name of that (1) Nil. company? 2680 2680[ASSEMBLY]

Mr TROY replied: (2) (a) Apart from the disturbance to a This question has been incorrectly world biosphere reserve-an area addressed to the Minister for of great sign ificance-i nvesti- Transport. It has been referred to the gations themselves would necess- Minister for Police and Emergency arily create additional tracks and Services, and he will answer the ques- imoose the risk of dieback intro- tion in writing. duction. Should water have been found on the site, the develop- ments would be quite substantial, WATER RESOURCES specifically involving pipeline Hopetoun: Fitzgerald River National Park and powe rl ine co nst ruct ion across which, 1304. Mr HOUSE, to the Minister for the East Mt Barren area apart from its scenic and gener- Conservation and Land Management: ally high conservation value, sup- (I) Have environmental reasons ports a eucalypt hybrid thought to precluded the Water Authority from be unique to the area. investigating the possibility of obtaining ground water from within Of probably much greater import- the Fitzgerald River National Park to ance is the unknown consequence on the ecosystems of water supply t he town of H-opetoun? drawdown on the aquifer, if one is (2) If yes- discovered. (a) what damage would be done, (b) and (c) Directly, only a relatively (b) what area of the Fitzgerald River small proportion of the national National Park would be affected; park, but indirectly, due to the possible effects of (c) what percentage of the Fitzgerald water River National Park would this drawdown and increased risk of represent? dieback, a substantial area of the park could he affected. Mr I-ODGE replied: (1) The Water Authority first approached HAIR DRESSERS the Department of Conservation and Land Management in 1985. The issue Apprentices: Training had previously been considered by the 1305. Mr MENSAROS, to the Minister for former National Parks Authority, Education: which had opposed the investigation. Parks (1) Is it a fact that the training of appren- It was referred to the National tices for ladies' and men's hairdressing and Nature Conservation Authority and ancillary matters is proposed to which considered it in considerable be combined within the colleges of detail and resolved to support the op- technical and further education? position of the former National Parks Authority. (2) Is he aware that a number of hair- dressers do not wish to reorganise The Water Authority submitted a no- their business into what is commonly tice of intent to the Environmental known as a unisex hairdressing salon? Protection Authority, which advised the Water Authority in December (3) Is he also aware that in case of joint 1985 that it did not support the inves- training, ladies' or men's only hair- tigation or development of the dressers would not be able to employ Hamerslcy River area for water or t ra in appren tices? supply. The EPA considered that there Mr PEARCE replied: were a number of grounds, but most importantly the park is one of two (1) Yes. areas of the State important enough to (2) and (3) Responsibility for all matters be a world biosphere reserve. Because affecting employers appertain ing to of the very great diversity of natural apprentice training rests with the Min- systems, the park should not be used ister for Labour, Productivity and for any purpose beyond that specified Employment, io whom 1have referred for it. these questions. [Wednesday. l7June 1987]26I 2681

EDUCATION (2) If yes. on what premise do child care Western Australian College of Advanced certificate students gain access to Education: Claremont Campus mothers and their neonates in the ma- 1306. Mr BRADSHAW. to the Minister for ternily units ofState hospitals? Education: M r TAYLOR repl ied: (1) Is the Claremont teachers college to be (1) No. closed? (2) Not applicable. (2) If so, will the current students finish their course at Claremont teachers col- lege? TRAINEESHIPS Mr PEARCE replied: Theoretical Education (1) No, although the present use of the 1309. Mr CASH, to the Minister for Labour, campus is under review. Productivity and Employment: (2) Not applicable. (1) Is it essential that the theoretical component of a traineeship be HEALTH undertaken in a technical and further AIDS:, Infants education college? 1307. Mr CASH, to the Minister for Health: (2) Is it anticipated that a child care traineeship scheme will be established (1) Is it a fact that currently three infants in Western Australia during the term with category -A- AIDS are being of this Government? cared for in public hospitals? (2) On present estimates, will not these Mr PETER DOWDING replied: three increase to 30 in five years and (1) No. 300 in 10 years? (2) Discussions with those organisations (3) 'As it is anticipated that these children that might employ child-care trainees have a life expectancy of 12 months. have indicated that there is insuf- what plans are being made for- ficient support at this stage. However, (a) the care of infants and their if further industry support can be mothers while the mothers live;, obtained, a traineeship could be devel- (b) the infants in the event that the oped in this term of Government. mothers die before the infants, or they are physically incapable of EDUCATION earing for them due to their own condition? St udentis: E arlyv Childhood Studies Mr TAYLOR replied: 1310. Mr CASH, to the Minister for (1)No. Education: (2) and (3) Not applicable, but I am very (1)Is it a fact that presently 3 172 conscious of the demand on the health students are taking early childhood and welfare services likely to arise in studies? the future. The situation is being very (2) How many of these students will be carefully monitored. ineligible for tertiary admission? (3) What non-tertiary courses are avail- EDUCATION: STUDENTS able to students-male and femnale- Work Experience: Health Department who are genuinely interested in a ch ild-ca re ca reer? 1308. Mr CASH. to the Minister for Health: (1) Since increasing numbers of tertiary (4) How many students are admitted to students are gaining practical experi- these courses annually? ence in public hospitals, is it policy (5) Are the qualifications gained from that preference should be given to these courses easily "transportable" to those who will ultimately be able to other Australian States and overseas gain employment in the Health De- when the graduates seek employment pa rtment outside this State? 2682 2682ASSEM BLYJ

M r PEARCE replied: Certificate of Mothercraft-Ngal-a- (I) On 27 February 1987, 3 172 students Duration of training-17 months were registered with the SEA in early full-time childhood studies in year II and year Entry requiremens-17 years of 12 in SI schools. Provisional figures in age-Have completed achieve- June 1987-CAP document C256- ment certificate. were 3 866 students. (4) Certificate in Child Care- (2) These figures are not available. 50 full-time students (3) Certificate in Child Care-TAPE course- 20 part-time students Duration of training-two years Diploma in Child Care- Entry requirements-IS years of 25 pant-time students age-post-year I I Introduction to Child Care- Diploma in Child Care-TAPE 200 pant-time students course- Certificate in Childrens' Recreation Duration of training--one year and Care- part-time 8 full-time students Entry requirements-Successful 30 pan-time students completion of certificate of child care plus two years experience in This is the only course in field of child care. Australia for out of school care. Introduction to Child Care-TAPE Certificate in Residential and Com- course- munity Care- Duration of training-IS weeks 20 full-time students pant-time 20 pant-time students Entry requ irements-Pantici pants Certificate of Motherraft- must be working in child care 27 full-time students. situations- 16 years of age- have completed achievement cer- (5) The five TAPE courses are pant of the national core curriculum in child care. tificate. - course is registered with the Certificate in Childrens' Recreation The NgaI-a and Care-TAPE course- Nurses Board of WA. In both cases these qualifications are Duration of training-one year recognised in other Australian States full-time. one year part-time and overseas. Entry requirements-20 years of age-Have completed achieve- ment centificate. LAND This course trains people in out of Reserve No C318 74: Zoning school services to children from 1312. Mr CASH, to the Minister for six to 14 years of age. It is the Planning: only such course offered in What is the current zoning of Reserve Australia. No C31874 in the Town of Kwinana Certificate in Residential and Com- under the- munity Care for Group Workers-- (a) local authority's district planning TAPE course- scheme:, Duration of training-one year (b) metropolitan region scheme? full-ti me Mr PEARCE replied: Entry requirements-I9 years of age-Have completed achieve- (a) Rural: ment certificate. (b) ru ral1. [Wednesday. I7iJune 1987J168 2683

MOTOR VEHICLE LICENCES (2) The task force has concluded its delib- Farm: Reversion erations and will report to me in the near future. My intention is to make 1318. Mr CASH, to the Minister for Police the task force recommendations pub- and Emergency Services: lic. (I) Where a vehicle is currently licensed under a farm plate and the farmer POLICE wants to revert the licence for a mini- mum period to cover the grain carting Recruit Training Courses season, does the vehicle have to be 1320. Mr CASH, to the Minister for Police reinspected prior to an ordinary li- and Emergency Services: cence being granted? (1)Were any police recruit training (2) If yes. why? courses previously scheduled to corn- (3) Does he or his department propose mence between 1 January 1987 and 30 any change to this system which, as he June 1987? may be aware, is causing concern to (2) If yes, why were they cancelled or many rural-based- members of the postponed? cornmun ity? (3) How many police cadets are currently Mr GORDON H ILL replied: awaiting an opportunity to attend a (I) Yes. police recruit training course? (2) Vehicles licensed with "farm" plates (4) How many police recruit training can only be used to cross from one courses have been scheduled for the portion of a farm to another portion period 1 July 1987 to 31 December of that farm or for firefighting pur- 19817, and when will the next recruit poses, and due to the restricted travel course commence? on roads are not inspected to the same Mr GORDON HILL replied: standard as unrestricted vehicles. (1) No. Where the vehicle is to be used for the (2) Not applicable. cartage of grain on an unrestricted basis, the conditions of use which ap- (3) Fifty-nine. ply to vehicles bearing farm plates are (4) The member should by now be aware not applicable and therefore the Police that the Government is ahead of Department has a responsibility to en- schedule in its police recruitment pro- sure that the vehicles comply fully gramme, and accordingly the next with the vehicle standards regulations. course is tentatively scheduled to com- This is achieved by a vehicle inspec- mence in November 1987. tion. (3) N o. WATER AUTHORITY Safety Glasses., Purchases HOUSING 1324, Mr CASH, to the Minister for Water Residenial Planning Review Task Force Resources: 1319. Mr CASH, to the Minister for (1) Is it his department's policy or Planning: Government policy to give preference to Western Australian manufacturers (1) On how many occasions has the resi- where practicable? dential planning review task force met to consider matters pertaining within (2) If yes, has his department purchased its terms of reference since its incep- safety glasses manufactured in West- tion? ern Australia in the past and is it con- tinuing to purchase Western (2) When will it conclude its deliber- Australian made safety glasses? ations, and will he make any recom- mendations public? (3) Are the Western Australian made safety glasses cost effective when Mr PEARCE replied: compared with similar safety glasses (I) Six times. from interstate and overseas sources? 2684 2684[ASSEMBLY]

(4) Is his department currently using land releases in townsites such as safety glasses manufactured in West- Guilderton still remains with the De- emn Australia, or from elsewhere, and partment of Lands Administration. if so why? (4) Not applicable. Mr BRIDGE replied: (1) No. Government policy is the national GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES: PUBLIC preference agreement. SERVICE (2) Not applicable. Freeze: Objectives (3) Not known. (4) Yes, because they are a cheaper 1327. Mr CASH, to the Minister for Public alternative for some applications. Sector Management: (1) In view of his answer to question 1255 TOURISM PROJECTS of 1987, what were the objectives of the Public Service freeze on Land Release Procedures reclassifications which was introduced 1325. Mr CASH. to the Minister for Lands: in June 1986? (1) Is he aware of a statement in The West (2) Were these objectives achieved or was Australian on 7 February 1987 in there some diminution of the original which it was stated that the Govern- objectives as a result of the backdating ment was to streamline land release of some reclassifications to date, both procedures for tourism projects? prior to and during the freeze? (2) If yes, what action has been taken to Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: date to give effect to this commit- ment? (1) The objectives were to contain growth (3) Has a committee been formed and if in public sector expenditure. so. has the committee considered the (2) Yes, the objectives were achieved and need to release land in the Guilderton there was insignificant diminution of townsite? the original objectives as the number (4) If not. why not? of reclassifications backdated was in- significant in comparison to the total Mr WILSON replied: number of reclassifications dealt with (1) Yes. after the freeze. (2) and (3) The tourist sites release com- mittee was formed following the Press GOVERMENT CHEMICAL announcement and has met twice LABORATORIES since early March. The committee comprises representatives from the Decision Departments of Regional Develop- ment and The North West, Land 1328. Mr CASH, to the Minister for Minerals Administration. Pastoral Board. Tour- and Energy: ism Commission. State Planning Referring to his answers to questions Commission, and the Water Auth- 301 of 1986 and 1252 of 1987 con- ority. cerning the future operations of the Already the committee has identified Government Chemical Laboratories, problems in the land release process, can he advise the reasons for the delay mainly relating to the obligation to ob- in making a decision on the future di- tain cleamances from a wide variety of rection of the Government Chemical authorities prior to releasing any site. Laboratories? The purpose of forming the com- Mr PARKER replied: mittee was to look at the mechanism of providing land throughout the State Time is required for all aspects of the for the development of tourist facili- matter to be considered by the several ties, but the responsibility for actual areas of Government involved. [Wednesday, 17 June 19871 282685

TECH NICA L AN D FU RTH ER Mr M. Roberts-Member nominated EDUCATION by the West Australian Hairdressers Trade Lecturers: Transfers and Wigmakers Employees Union of 1329. Mr CASH, to the Minister for Workers Education: Mr 0. Dunstan-Member nominated Is it intended that technical and further by the West Australian Hairdressers education trade lecturers be trans- and Wigmakers Employees Union of ferred to the jurisdiction of the Office Workers of [ndustrial Relations or some other Mr L. Marshall-Member nominated Government department or agency? by the Master Ladies Hairdressers As- sociation Mr PEARCE replied: (2) 14 May 1987. No such proposition has been given formal consideration by the Govern- (3) On 9 June 1987, Executive Council ment. approved new appointments to I September 1987,

HA!IRDRESSERS HIIARDRESSERS' REGISTRATION BOARD Apprentices: Registrations staff 1330. Mr CASH. to the Minister for Labour. 1332. Mr CASH, to the Minister for Labour, Productivity and Employment: Productivity and Employment: (1) How many apprentice hairdressers are (1) How many staff are employed by the currently registered in Western Hairdressers' Registration Board, and Australia? what positions do they occupy? (2) How many persons are presently (2) Who funds the Hairdressers' Regis- qualified and registered as- tration Board? (a) combined hairdressers-, Mr PETER DOWDING replied: (b) men's inclusive hairdressers:. (1) Four-registrar, inspector. two cleri- (c) ladies' inclusive hairdressers? cal staff. Mr PETER DOWDING replied: (2) Industry and the Government. See my (1) 1 398 at 31 May 1987. reply to question 1066. (2) As at 16 June 1987- (a) 125. HAIR DRESSERS' REG ISTRATION BOARD (b) 407: Abolition (c) 3 229. 1333. Mr CASH, to the Minister for Labour. Productivity and Employment: (1) Is it intended to disband the Hair- HAIRDRESSERS' REGISTRATION BOARD dressers' Registration Board, and if so,- Members when? 1331. Mr CASH, to the Minister for Labour, (2) If so. what provisions have been made Productivity and Employment: for the existing stall' (2) Who are the members of the Hair- Mr PETER DOWDING replied: dressers' Registration Board? I refer the member to my reply to (2) When did their most recent appoint- question 1065. ments expire? (3) When were they reappointed, and HAIRDRESSERS' REGISTRATION BOARD when does their current term expire? Review Mr PETER DOWDING replied: 1334, Mr CASH, to the Minister for Labour. (1) Mr A. Pallot-Chairman Productivity and Employment: Mr J. Aquilia-Member nominated (; Is a review being undertaken of the by the Master Hairdressers Associ- Hairdressers' Registration Board? ation of WA (Inc.) (2) If yes. what form will the review take? 2686 2686[ASSEMBLY]

(3) Who is conducting the review? (3) Consideration of amendments will be (4) Will the hairdressing industry have undertaken following the outcome of any input into the review process? the present review of the Hairdressers Registration Act. (5) If yes to (4). when can members of the industry expect to be contacted for their comment? HAIRDRESSERS Mr PETER DOWDING replied: Classifications: Amalgamation (I) Yes. 1337. Mr CASH, to the Minister for Labour. (2) The provisions and application of the Productivity and Employment: Hairdressers' Registration Act are be- (1) Which classes of hairdressing are cur- ing reviewed and in particular the role rently taught in Western Australia at and the functions of the Hairdressers' present? Registration Board. (2) Is it intended to amalgamate all (3) Officers of the Department of Em- classes into one? ployment and Training. (3) If so, will persons qualified in one (4) Yes. Written submissions will be class only be able to employ appren- .invited. tices once this amalgamation has oc- (5) At a time when such input is con- cu rred? sidered appropriate. Mr PETER DOWDING replied: (1) Regulation 6 of the Hairdressers HAIRDRESSERS' REGISTRATION BOARD Registration Regulations provides for Government Representatives five classes of hairdressing- 1335. Mr CASH, to the Minister for Labour. Mens Inclusive; Ladies Inclusive; Productivity and Employment: Mens Inclusive and Ladies Lim- ited: Ladies Inclusive and Mens (1) Are there any Government representa- Limited: Combined. tives on the Hairdressers' Registration Board? (2) and (3) These matters will be deter- mined in the context of the review of (2) If so, who arc they? the Hairdressers Registration Act and (3) Are they paid any fees, and if so. how the decision to introduce a single hair- much and who funds the payment? dressing trade in 1988. Mr PETER DOWDING replied: (I) No. LAND SALES (2) and (3) Not applicable. Guilderton 1338. Mr CASH, to the Minister for Lands: HAIRDRESSERS' ACT (1) Have Lots 221-222 Ralph Street. Lots Amsendmnents 223-226 Wedge Street. and Lots 227- 2336. Mr CASH, to the Minister for Labour. 228 Mullins Street, Guilderlon. ever Productivity and Employment: been offered for sale to the public? (1) Is his department considering any (2) If yes, when and under what con- amendments to the Hairdressers' Act d it ions? which were recommended by the (3) Are these lots available for purchase? Hairdressers' Registration Board in Mr WILSON replied: late 1985? (2) If yes. why has there been a delay in (1) Not to my knowledge. dealing with these amendments? (2) Answered by (1). (3) When are they expected to be (3) No. but the member may be aware introduced into Parliament? that the lots referred to are the subject Mr PETER DOWDING replied: of a recent application to the Depart- ment of Land Administration as a (1) No. proposed site for holiday accommo- (2) Not applicable. dation units. [Wednesday, 17 June 19871 268768

LAND RELEASES Mr GORDON HILL replied: Availabilityv (1) It is understood that the price range for these 1339. Mr CASK, to the Minister plates varies from $20 to $28 for Lands: per pair. Further to his answer to question 1122 (2) Data necessary to approximate this of 1987, why is there currently no land figure is not readily available. available for release for the purposes the outlined in the earlier question? (3) The plates are a means of increasing conspicuousness of heavy vehicles in M r WILSON replied: poor lighting conditions, thus signtifl- In the event the member is referring to cantly reducing the risk of rear end question 11120 of 3 June 1987. not collisions, and are in conformity with a 1122 as stated in his current question, resolution of the Australian Transport I advise that firm proposals for the Advisory Council. release of land for a caravan park and (4) The regulation applies to all registered holiday accommodation units were vehicles which fall under the require- only received at the Department of ments of Regulation No 311. Lands Administration recently, and will be the subject of funther dis- COMMUNITY SERVICES: GROW cussions with the Shire of Gingin, as I have previously indicated. Funding: Reduction 1342. Mr COWAN, to the Minister LAND RELEASES representing the Minister for Budget Management: Guilderion (1) Is he considering a proposal that will 1340. Mr CASH, to the Minister for Lands: reduce, or have the effect of reducing, to (1) Further to hi-s answer to question 1120 the level of' Government funding the community mental health organis- of 1987, what land is currently avail- able for purchase or lease from his de- ation known as GROW? partment in the Guildenton townsite? (2) If yes, when will an announcement be made about the new funding arrange- (2) What conditions attach to this land? ment? Mr WILSON replied:. Mr PETER DOWDING replied: (1) There is currently no Crown land This question has been incorrectly available for lease or purchase in addressed to the Minister representing Guilderton townsice. the Minister for Budget Management. (2) Answered by (1). I t has been referred to th e M in ister far Health, who will answer the question in writing. MOTOR VEHICLE STANDARDS Regulations: Case COMMUNITY SERVICES: GROW 1341. Mr WIESE, to the Minister for Police Funding: Reduction and Emergency Services: 1343. Mr COWAN, to the Minister for (1) With reference to the new vehicle Health: standards regulation No 311, tabled in (1) Is he considering a proposal that will the Legislative Assembly on 4 June reduce, or have the effect of reducing, 1987, what is the cost per vehicle? the level of Government funding to (2) What is the anticipated total cost the community mental health organis- across the State? at ion kn own as G ROW? (3) What is the justification of the new (2) If yes. when will an announcement be regulation? made about the new funding arrange- ment? (4) Does the new regulation apply to new vehicles only or does it also apply to M r TA YLOR replIied: vehicles that are already on the road? (1) No. 2688 2688[ASSEMBLY]

(2) Not applicable. of the meeting indicates that I informed the shire that I was in Northampton to consult with con- LAND: RESERVES cerned people including the shire, Classification: Notification farmers, and Aborigines, although the 1344. Mr TUBBY, to the Minister final decision would be one for the representing the Attorney General: Minister for Lands. (1) Is it the policy of the Government to The Shire of Northampton notify the local authority concerned subsequently wrote to me expressing when it is pmoposed to change the pur- its concerns, as did the member for pose of a reserve within that local Greenough. I informed both parties authority? that I would give consideration to those concerns in making a (2) If no to(]), why not? recommendation. (3) If yes, was this the case with Reserve That I did indeed give consideration No 1475 known as "Barrel Well" at to the concerns is evidenced by the Ajana in the Shire of Northampton? fact that in coming to his decision to (4) (a) Was the fact publicly advertised transfer Reserve No 1475 to the Abor- that Reserve No 1475 was no iginal Lands Trust, the Minister for longer required for its initial pur- Lands stipulated that the trust must pose, and were indications of withhold any leasing arrangement un- interests called for: til an acceptable management plan for the reserve's improvement and use is (b) if not. why not? prepared. The Northampton Shire will (5) If yes to (4). will he please give details be invited to participate in preparing of the advertisement and date? the plan. Mr PETER DOWDING replied: This question has been incorrectly HOSPITALS addressed to the Minister representing Bed Occupancy Averages the Attorney General. 1346. Mr TUBBY, to the Minister for Health: It has been referred to the Minister for Would he please provide bed averages Lands, who will answer the question for the following country hospitals and in writing. nursing homes- Munay Bunibury Collie Donnybrook- LAND: RESERVE Ralingup, Harvey AugSta.- _ Buisciton Ba~np Brook Barrel Welt: Aboriginal Lands Trust MagrtRiver Bridgctown- Manjimup Nannup Gnowangerup 1345. Mr TUBBY, to the Minister for Greenbushes Aboriginal Affairs: Katonaing Kojonup Albainy Denimarl, Planlaenet Boddingtoi Bniokion Dunibleyung (1) Did he have further dialogue with the Narrogin Pinwvlv Wallin Carrigin Northampton Shire Council and con- Kondinin Lake G.se Moo.a Beverley cerned farmers as promised at a recent Ctunderdin Daiwallino Coornialting Nartharm

meeting with the council before he Quainiding wonsgan6 4 llidu Wyalkatelsern York made a recommendation to the Minis- Brute Rock IKellerberi Merredits Nrmben ter for Lands that Reserve No 1475 Timyning vilgarn Boulder Coolgardie known as "Barrel Well" be vested in Kalgoorlie Lavenan Leonora Dundas the Aboriginal Lands Trust? Espera ne Ravensihorp Canarvon Eansouth MeCkatharn Wiluna Geiclon Morawa (2) If no. why not? mull.w Norilanion Three Springs Pilbara Mr BRIDGE replied: Pan Hedland Roe bt. riu west Pilbaro Halls Creek wyndhani Bnirric Derby (1) and (2) 1 do not recall making a com- mitment at my meeting with the MrTAYLOR replied: Northampton Shire Council on 19 The information which the member March to have further dialogue with requests is available in tabled paper the shire or local farmers. My record No 583 of 1986 at pages 139 to 142. [Wednesday, 17 June 1987] 282689

WATER RESOURCES ELECTRICAL CONTRACTORS Water Table Informnation Randomt Testing 1349. Mr LAURANCE. to the Minister for 1347. Mr CRANE, to the Minister for Water Minerals and Energy: Resources: Will he provide the list of 20 names of (1) Is the Water Authority changing its electrical contractors who have volun- policy of supplying water table depth teered for random testing of new elec- information to well sinkers who re- trical installations? quest this information on identified lots in the metropolitan area? Mr PARKER replied: No. (2) If yes, will he ensure that this infor- mation is again supplied to well sinkers and others who seek this infor- ELECTRICAL CONTRACTORS mation from the surface water section Statutory Boards of the authority, or otherwise explain 1350. Mr LAURANCE. to the Minister for the reason for the change in policy? Minerals and Energy: Mr BRIDGE replied: (1)Is he aware that recommendation (I) Yes. 5.7.3 of the review of the inspection branch of the State Energy Com- (2) To avoid duplication, it is proposed mission of Western Australia, the that later this year the service will be Electrical Workers Board, and the taken over by the Geological Survey. Electrical Contractors Licensing In the interim, the Water Authority Board recommended that "the maxi- will continue to provide information mum penalty on conviction for breach on groundwater levels in the metro- of the regulations of the Act should be politan area. increased to $3 000"? (2) As this report was received by him in October I1985, why has no action been HOSPITAL taken to implement recommendation Graylands: Kiosk 5.7.3? Mr PARKER replied: 1348. Mr BRADSHAW. to the Minister for Health: (I) Yes. (2) The recommendation is under con- (1) Were negotiations proceed ing with the sideration with many others in the re- Psychiatric Nurses Association to port. Appropriate changes to regu- operate jointly a kiosk at Graylands lations are under preparation by Par- Hospital? liamentary Counsel. (2) Why were those negotiations broken owf ROAD (3) Has the Health Department opened a Coral Bay: Traffic Counts new kiosk at Graylands Hospital? 1352. Mr LAURANCE, to the Minister for (4) If yes to (3). why has the department Transport: opened a kiosk at Graylands Hospital? (1) Is it a fact that recent traffic counts have identified that more than 300 ve- Mr TAYLOR replied: hicles per day are using the access (1) No. road to Coral Bay during peak periods? (2) Not applicable. (2) With the growth of tourism in this (3) Replacement kiosk previously located area and the imminent proclamation at Swanbourne Hospital. of the Ningaloo Marine Park, is there an urgent need for this road to be (4) See (3). sealed? 2690 2690[ASSEMBLY]

(3) What plans does the Government MINERALS: GOLD have to commence the sealing of this road? Nugget Coins: Sale M rTROY replied: 1355. Mr MacKINNON. to the Treasurer: (1) to (3) A recent count by the Shire of (1) Is the Rural and Industries Bank sell- Carnarvon over a 21-day period in ing the Western Australian Gold Cor- May showed a maximum of 320, with poration gold coins? an average of 137 vehicles per day (2) If so, what buy-back arrangements using the Coral Bay access road. does the Rural and Industries Bank This road is a local road under the guarantee to purchasers of those responsibility of the Shire of coins? Carnarvon. I am aware that the coun- cil considers sealing of the road a high Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: priority, as was expressed to me at a (1) Yes. meeting with the council last September. (2) The Rural and Industries Bank guarantees to repurchase gold coins at Currently negotiations are proceeding buying price based on the price of gold on a joint funding arrangement. This ruling at the time. project will, however, have to take its place in priority assessment with other competing works. HOUSING Rooming Houses: Letting ELECTRI[CAL WORKERS' BOARD 1356. Mr MENSAROS, to the Minister for Members Housing: 1353. Mr LAURANCE, to the Minister for (1) Is it a fact that Homeswest is taking Minerals and Energy: over the conducting of business of (1) Who are the members of the Electrical rooming houses at several premises, Workcrs' Board, and what interests do amongst them- they represent? (a) 145, 191, and 193 Newcastle (2) Who are the members of the Electrical Street, Perth: Contractors' Licensing Board, and what interests do they represent? (b) 56, 60, and 100 Aberdeen Street, Perth; Mr PARKER replied: (1) Mr G. H. Roy-Chairman-com- (c) 185 Beaufort Street, Perth? mission appointment (2) Is Homeswest going to become the Mr M. H. Scatty-Nominated by the owner or main tenant of these prem- electrical workers: ises? Mr R. H. Doonan-Nominated by the (3) Are these premises going to be struc- Insurance Council of Australia; Mr T. turally and aesthetically repaired, or G. Thiel-Nominated by electrical are they going to be left in their contractors; present condition? Vacant position-Nominated by the Mr WILSON replied: supply authorities. (1) Homeswest is progressively assuming (2) Mr G. H. Roy-Chairman: responsibility for a number of proper- Mr J. V. D'Esterre-Nominated by ties owned by the State Planning the Electrical Contractors Association Commission in the area, which cur- of WA; rently operate as boarding houses. Mr S. D. Allen-Nominated by the (2) It is currently intended that electrical workers: Homeswest will be the head tenant. Mr F. A. Visser-Nominated by the (3) The premises will be repaired and supply authorities. upgraded. (Wednesday. I17 June 1987]169 2691

HOUSING WATER RESOURCES Rooming Houses: Letting Water Table Information 1359. Mr COURT, to the Minister for Water 1357. Mr MENSAROS. to the Minister for Resources: Housing: (1) Has the Waler Aulhority withdrawn In connection with renting a bed or groundwater informnation to cornmer- room in a Homeswest rooming cial plumbers and drilling contractors house- being given over the telephone? (a) what is the required procedure for (2) If yes, when was this service with- application: drawn and why? (3) How can these people now receive the (b) have applications to be made in relevant information they require? writing, or can they be made ver- Mr BRIDGE replied: bally; (1) To avoid duplication it is proposed (c) at which venues can applications that the groundwater information ser- be made during which hours of vice provided by the Water Authority the day; will be transferred to the Geological {d) how long does it take to decide on Survey later this year. approving or rejecting an appli- (2) The consolidation of the service with cation;, one organisation is being done to re- duce costs. (e) what, if any. are the eligibility cri- (3) The Water Authority will continue to teria? provide information on groundwater M r WILSON replied: levels in the metropolitan area until the Geological Survey can provide the As the question requires a detailed re- service. sponse, I will advise the member in writing. LAND Conditional Purchase: Money Owing HOUSING 1361. Mr COWAN, to the Minister for Rooming Houses: Letting Lands: (1) How much money is owed to the 1358. Mr MENSAROS. to the Minister for Crown on conditional purchase land? Housing: (2) What does it cost to administer con- (1) Does I-omeswest provide a rooming ditional purchase land debt repay- house service for applicants? ments? (2) If so, would he list the individual (3) What is the annual cost of rooming houses with their addresses. maintaining land inspectors to ensure the number of rooms and number of that farmers comply with conditional beds provided, and the average rent purchase development conditions? charged for single or shared rooms? M r WILSON replied: (1) Approximately $6 million. (3) Would he describe the services provided-that is, weekly new bed- (2) Collection of conditional purchase ding, cleaning of rooms, and con- debt repayments is only pant of the veniences, etc? day-to-day operations of the accounts branch of the Department of Lands Ad- (4) For how long has Homeswest ministration, and it is therefore diffi- provided this service? cult to estimate the cost of administer- Mr WILSON replied: ing the scheme. (3) Currently four land inspectors are em- As the question requires a detailed re- ployed by the Department of Lands sponse, I will advise the member in Administration at a combined annual writing. salary of about $102 250, but I point 2692 2692[ASSEM BLY]

out to the member that inspection of Mr BRIAN BURKE: It is obviously auth- conditional purchase leases forms only orised by someone who is not experi- part of their duties. enced, T. Herzfeld-if not inex- perienced, then certainly new at his job. QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE It is symptomatic of what is happening in the Opposition. The FEDERAL ELECTION Deputy Leader of the Opposition is shocked. The Opposition Liberal Party Candidate: Advertisement must get its candidates in, give them a seminar on 212. Mrs WATKINS, to the Premier: how to tell the truth-it will have to get someone else to do that-and then (1) Has the Premier seen the 16 June perhaps we shall not see this sort of edition of the Wannerco Times, and advertisement. It is terrible. What will in particular a Liberal Party advertise- young children think of it? It is an ment on behalf of its Federal candi- awful situation. date for Cowan? I think we should call Mr Filing before (2) Would the Premier advise me of the the Bar of the Parliament, but I will accuracy of the statement which not do so. I will end by simply saying suggests that an average family is $441 that it is an appalling advertisement; it a week worse off under a Labor is wrong in material and substantial Government? ways; it should be withdrawn; and, if Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: anyone votes for Mr Filing on the basis of his arithmetic, he or she is (1) and (2) 1 cannot really quite believe lacking in judgment too. the Liberal Party's extravagance these days in its advertisements. This MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT policeman, about whom we arc all so concerned with regard to his future Inaccurate Information employment-if he is so confident of 213. Mr LAURANCE, to the Leader of the winning I do not know why people are House: worrying about him-under the head- (1) Has he received my urgent letter ing "No more high taxes-Mr delivered to his office this morning Hawke" makes certain statements which points out that the information which would almost make me want to given to this House last night by the vote for him if they were true. He Minister for Transport that the Acts states that Labor has allowed living Amendment (Taxi-Cars) Bill was not standards to fall so that an average listed for debate on private members' family is $441 a week worse off. I can- day last Wednesday was inaccurate? not believe that is the case. Hands up (2) Does he acknowledge that the Bill was anyone in the Opposition who is $441 in fact aweek worse off. listed for debate last Wednesday but the Government Mr Crane: l am not an average wage earner insisted that a motion moved by the but l am that much worse off. member for Gosnells (Mrs Henderson) be dealt with first? This Mr BRIAN BURKE: I still think it is took all the time of the House left on drawing the longbow for Mr Filing to that day. say that the avenage family is $441 worse off. I hope they have not given (3) Will he agree to my written request to him any hard people to catch in the arrange the business of' the House this past, because he has certainly not week so that the taxi-car Bill will be narrowed down the figure to the cor- debated before the session concludes? rect one. I expect Mr Filing to with- (4) If not, why not? draw this ridiculous advertisement Mr PEARCE replied: and stop making this absurd claim. (1) and (2) Each Tuesday night, before the Dr Gallop: Who authorised the advertise- Wednesday of private members' day, I ment? meet with the Deputy Leader of the [Wednesday, 17 June 19871 269329

Opposition to order business for pri- ficient priority to ensure that it was vate members' day. In that ordering I debated last Wednesday. It could have basically accept the propositions put made it the first item of priority. forward by the Opposition about how it wants private members' day I have received the letter from the organised. Each week the Opposition Deputy Leader of the Opposition and puts together its order of events. he is right in saying that it was listed Government private members also to be dealt with last Wednesday. How- put matters on the Notice Paper, but I ever, the Minister for Transport is also have often told them that because the right; the Opposition could have Government has more time than the ensured that it was dealt with by Opposition, Government private giving it higher priority. members have to accept that the Op- I believe, and I think the Opposition position gets priority on private mem- has accepted, that in the course of or- bers' day. I have prevented Govern- ganising this parliamentary session ment private members from getting a private members' day has continued 50 per cent share of private members' to the second-last week and Oppo- time, which some of them think they sition members have had considerable should get. opportunity to have matters aired. Only once in the whole time of this (3) and (4)f told the Deputy Leader of the session on private members' day have see that I insisted that a Government Opposition that I would try to private the private members' Bills not dealt member's matter be dealt with. I said with last Wednesday were dealt with to the Deputy Leader of the Oppo- by the end of this session. I said it sition that I felt it was reasonable that would the motion be contingent on assistance by the member for received from Opposition members in Gosnells be given an airing on that ensuring that Government business day; I did not want it to be the first was dealt with expeditiously. We are matter of private members' business not making bad progress but we shall because that would have been inap- not set any records. If it is possible to propriate. I told the Deputy Leader of provide time for the Bill to be dealt the Opposition that I would like the with inside the parameters motion moved by the Government of the amount of Government business and private member to be the third matter the time left for the Parliament to sit, I of priority on private members' day will make that time available: but at last Wednesday. the present rate of progress it is diffi- The first priority that day was given to cult to be optimistic. the second reading of a Bill by the deputy leader of the National Party; second priority was given to the first AUSTRALIA DAY HOLIDAY priority of the Liberal Party in Oppo- sition; we then came to the Govern- 1988 Celebration ment private member's motion on 214. Mr WATT, to the Minister for Labour, taxation. Two other matters were Productivity and Employment: listed, the taxi-car Dill and another. (1) Is it a fact that the Australia Day pub- Mr Laurance: You agree it was listed. lic holiday in 1988 will be held on Mr PEARCE: It was listed to the extent Tuesday. 26 January instead of the that we always put Five items on the traditional first Monday on or after 26 list with which to deal; but as on other January, resulting in the loss of a long occasions we always list more than we weekend? can deal with. The taxi-car Bill was (2) Why has the change been made? listed as the fourth matter to be dealt with last Wednesday. Only one of the (3) It is indended that the Australia Day three items which preceded it was a public holiday be held on 26 January, Government member's motion. The regardless of the day on which it falls, Opposition did not give that Bill suf- on all future occasions? 2694 2694ASSEMB LY]

Mr PETER DOWDING replied: Mr GORDON HILL replied: (1) and (2) 1 am aware of the claim, and it (1) to (3) No, this will not happen on all is neither practical nor correct. The future occasions. The member surely member for Gascoyne in his statement knows that 26 January 1988 is the bi- made reference to police becoming centennial celebration of Australia Day and the Prime involved with respect to evasion of Minister has fares as an alternative to what he requested, and certainly Western called impractical civil action to Australia and the vast majority of recover fares of $10 or $20. That is other States-and perhaps all States what he said. Police see the proposal now-have agreed, that we celebrate as impractical, and I agree. that holiday on the Tuesday as it falls on Australia Day. There are lots of The member for Mt Lawley also dis- arguments for and against Monday the agrees with his colleague, as he pub- 25th also being a public holiday, and I licly stated on 8 June 1987- think I am correct in saying that issue We don't want our police officers has not been resolved. However, the out there you know, collecting question of whether the holiday will traffic fines and wasting their be celebrated on the Tuesday has been time knocking on people's doors resolved in this State, and it will be to collect debts; we want them to celebrated on Australia Day. I am get out there and start acting as quite sure that is a decision which the crime-busters. That's what Lhey're majority of people, and even members trained for and that's what their opposite, will accept as being a very job is. appropriate step for our bicentennial year. The Opposition either does or does not want police to be involved in debt Many people in the community be- collection. Which is it to be; what do lieve the holiday should be held when they really want? it falls. Personally, the issue is not Mr Cash: You are going back on the prom- whether that deprives people of a long ises you made at lunchtime on the weekend, although that is an aspect of steps of Parliament House. You have the matter, but there is an equal con- changed your mind again. cern that it causes uncertainty and Mr GORDON HILL: What does the Op- people find it difficult to plan a hol- position really want? iday. However, those matters will be taken into account in due course with Mr Cash: That was a bit foolish. Even the respect to 1989 and years after that. taxi drivers thought the Minister was joking. Mr GORDON HILL: The taxi drivens TAXIS know I am not joking when I have given them the opportunity now of Fare Evasion: Legislation not having to wear seat belts at night when they are carrying passengers. 215. Mrs BUCHANAN. to the Minister for They applaud that decision. I just can- Police and Emergency Services: not help wondering who is the Oppo- sition spokesman on police matters. (1) Is the Minister aware that on 15 June From time to time we hear inconsist- 1987, the member for Gascoyne pub- ent statements from the Opposition. licly stated that his private members' We have beard that from the Oppo- Bill to amend the Police Act would sition on random breath testing, and enable police to act on the evasion of now we are hearing of it again. The Op- taxi fares, and that he made his position cannot get its act together on statement in the context that his Bill police policies. was necessary to provide taxi drivers with an alternative to civil action? I have previously asked the Oppo- sition in this place to take a bipartisan (2) If so. is the claim by the member for approach to traffic policing matters, Gascoyne correct? and I have asked it to come forward [Wednesday, 17 June 19 87J 269569

with constructive suggestions on ways fi rst trying to coordinate their in which we can reduce the road toll. I approaches, but why should they let have made that ottier to the Oppo- the facts stand in the way of publicity sition. I have yet to receive any com- on this issue? They have not been so ments from it. The Opposition does restrained in the past. not have any policy on that or any other matter. All that we get from the STATE GOVERNMENT INSURANCE Opposition is inconsistent statements such as this one. On the one hand, the COMMISSION member for Gascoyne says that he AuditedAccounis wants police to collect debts- 216. Mr STEPHENS, to the Treasurer: I ask this question on behalf of the Point of Order member for Avon. Mr WILLIAMS: Mr Speaker, I draw your Wilt the Treasurer table the audited, attention to Standing Order No 110. fully detailed accounts of the State which says- Government Insurance Commission In answering any such question, a for the years 1985-86 and 1986-87, member shall not debate the mat- and if not, why not? ter to which the same refers. Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: It is clear that the Minister is carrying Notice of this question was given on a debate, rather than answering the some time ago, but the member did question. not ask the question. I have kept the The SPEAKER: Just to assist me in mak- answer in my file here. ing a decision on that point of order, I The Government will table the report would ask the Minister whether he is of the SGIC in accordance with the debating, or whether he is answering provisions of the SOIC Act and the the question. Financial Administration and Audit Mr GORDON HILL: I am answering the Act in the normal way in due course. question, and I will draw my com- ments to a conclusion. COAL EXPORTS The SPEAKER: On that basis, I will give Collie Stockpile the Minister the call again. 217. Mr LIGHTFOOT. to the Minister for Minerals and Energy: Questions without Notice Resumed (1) Given that India's coal reserves were Mr GORDON HILL: It is quite clear that 132 000 million tonnes for the year the Opposition feels a bit embarrassed ended 1985, and that 1985 calendar about this and would like me not to year production was 161 million point out the inconsistencies in its at- tonnes, rising to 332 million tonnes titude. On the one hand, we have the from present reseres by the year so-called shadow Minister, the mem- 2000, is the Minister still confident of ber for Mt Lawley, making comments finalising the export of the Collie in relation to police and saying that stockpile, or pant thereof, announced police should not be knocking on early in 1986? doors and collecting debts; yet on the (2) If yes, what tonnages of the stockpile, other hand, just a few days before, we which stood at just over 1.5 million have a comment from the member for tonnes at May ended, will be exported Gascoyne. saying that the police this year, nearly two years after the should be doing that. This is another announcement? inconsistency, as there so frequently is so far as the Opposition is concerned. Mr PARKER replied: There is no coordination, no (t) and (2) 1 think the question reveals perspective, no direction, but total that the member for Murchison-Eyre chaos. This is another occasion when does not understand the concept that both the member for Mt Lawley and is involved, because while it is true the member for Gascoyne have again that India, like many other countries, shot themselves in the foot without is a substantial producer of coal, it is 2696 2696ASSEM BLY]

also (rue that India's coal is contained KIMBERLEY LAND COUNCIL within its northern areas, and that one Payments: Mlain Roads Department of the big problems that India has is a lack of infrastructure for moving that 218 Mr COURT, to the Minister for coal from the northern areas to the Transport: southern areas. (1) Has the Main Roads Department made any payment to the Kimberley Land Council in the past two months? It is also true that the prices which the (2) If yes, what were the amounts of the private sector in India. and, indeed, payments and for what purpose were the utilities in States like Tamil Nadu, they made? the southernmost state of India, are M rTROY re plied: forced to pay for coal are very high int order to protect a very inefficient in- (1) Yes. dustry in the north. (2) As a result of normal operations associated with the department's in- vestigations into the new alignment of It was very substantially more, some- several sections of Great Northern thing like four times the price that Highway, and for the purpose of would normally be paid for landed searching for road building materials coal from Western Australia or from for these prospective works, the de- other parts of Australia. The aim of partment engaged the services of the the exercise that was begun about 18 Kimberley Land Council. The depart- months ago was to try to ensure that ment received a report in April, and the parties who visited me on several on 1lOJune paid $3 201 for the advice occasions and who undertook activi- to the Kimnberley Land Council. The ties with the private sector in WA, work involved investigations on Great both in the coal industry and other Northern Highway between Dunham industries, were able to develop that River Station and Victoria Highway. trade and enable some of that coal to enter southern India. The Govern- PASTORAL BOARD ment of that southern Indian State has given approval for such trade: the pri- Inspectors: Transfer vate sector parties are still interested 219. Mr BLAIKIE, la the Minister for Lands: and discussions are ongoing. (1) Why has the Minister permitted in- spectorial staff of the Pastoral Board to be transferred to the Department of The second paint is that the member Agriculture after I July? is wrong in saying that the coal stock- (2) Can he advise the reasons for the pile at Collie is 1.5 million tonnes. On Government's action when the threat a number of occasions in this House I of the move has been strenuously have revealed that the SEC is required opposed by pastoral organisations? to have a stockpile in any event, and (3) Is the move supported by the member that stockpile is always in the order of for Kimberley and Mr Ken Mclver, between 600 000 and 800 000 ton nes the Chairman of the Pastoral Board? and has been for many years. It would be irresponsible to have any less. As I M r W ILSON repl ied: have already indicated in answers to (1) to (3) The move of the inspectorate to questions by the Deputy Leader of the the Department of Agriculture was Opposition and the member for agreed to by Cabinet as a result of Cottesloe. the SEC manages the sur- recommendations by the Functional plus stockpile as pant of its overall Review Committee and other com- stockpile management. As I have mittees which have inquired into the pointed out on numerous occasions conduct of the Pastoral Board and the also, the actual amount of stockpile pastoral industry. The move has the coal associated with the inventory of support of Cabinet, of which the the North West Shelf gas is about member for Kimberley is a member- 750 000 tonnes. in case the member needs reminding. [Wednesday, 17 June 1987] 292697

The decision was made after those in- (3) Is he further aware that the work force quiries had made recommendations, at Karratha. on the LNG project wilt and it was made as a measure to in- increase by an additional 1 500 crease the efficiency of the inspector- wo rke rs by October of this year? ate. -Information has not been conveyed to me that the pastoral or- (4) If he is aware of all this, does he recog- ganisations have strong objections to nise that there is a serious housing the move. crisis in the town of Karratha? Mr Blaikie: They totally oppose it. (5) Ifyes to (4), what action is he taking to Mr Taylor: That is wrong, because they relieve the problem? recognise ic has been a Government responsibility to make such a decision, M r W ILSO N repl ied: and they accept it as such. Mr WILSON: That is correct. I am sur- (1) to (5) Some of the figures that the prised at this outburst from the mem- member gave are correct. Consul- ber for Vasse; I always thought he took tations between my department, the a responsible attitude on subjects for Department of Resources Develop- which he had responsibility. In saying ment, the Department of Regional De- what he said-as the Minister for velopment and the North West, the Health had indicated-he has not shire council, and the mining industry conveyed the truth about the attitudes are ongoing. All the reports that have of pastoral industry organ isations. come back from the Department of There have been long discussions with Resources Development and the in- those organisations and they under- formation provided by Woodside Pet- stand why the Government made this roleum indicate that the provision of decision. They also understand the housing predicted by the initial re- Government's right to make the de- ports on housing requirements has cision in order to bring about been complied with under the appro- efficiencies in the operation of priate clause in the agreement which Government departments. Woodside is required to meet, and that it is predicted there will be a jump in the work force between later this RAILWAYS year and the middle of next year, and Bonnie Rock-Burakin: Closure that Wood side has made adequate 220. Mr SCHELL, to the Minister for provision to provide housing for that Transport: increase in the work force. (1) Are there any plans to close the The Department of Lands Admin- Burakin-Bonnie Rock Railway line? istration has adequate stocks of land (2) If yes, what are the proposals? available, including I I lots for MrtTROY repl ied: houses in Karratha. Another seven or (1) and (2) I am not aware of plans for eight sites are available for medium- that closure, but I will make inquiries density housing which can provide and give the member further infor- for another 100-odd units of accom- mation by way of letter. modation. The department has also entered into an arrangement with ATCO for the production of tempor- HOUSING ary housing. Several of the temporary Rental- Karra (ha housing units are already on site on a 221. Mr LEWIS, to the Minister for Housing: six-hectare lease made available to ATCO. The only reason that more (1) Is the Minister aware that rents at temporary housing cannot be Karratha for three-bedroom duplex provided more quickly by this private houses are now $450 a week? enterprise body is that the shire coun- (2) Is he also aware that the hire of a cara- cil will not allow the lease on the land van in a caravan park, if one is fortu- to extend beyond three years. If the nate enough to get one, is $250 a shire were to allow the lease to extend week? for a greater period, more units could 2698 [ASSEMBLY]

be made available more quickly and situation in Western Australia and it more cheaply than the rents currently is a problem that has to be catered for, charged. not in terms of providing housing The member should understand that which costs twice as much as it does in there is a severe limit on private ives- Perth in normal circumstances for a tars interested in private housing in temporary work force. I just wish the Karratha because of the lack of member had made some careful in- guarantee of long-term returns on such quiries before shooting off his mouth. investments. The pmoblem of provid- ing housing for a fast-growing work Mr Lewis: I was up there last week. force, many of whom will be on the job for only a short time, is such that it is appropriate that the housing Mr WILSON: Yes, and the member made provided should only be temporary. some silly statements based on his whether in caravans or houses. It has complete ignorance of the situation. always been a problem in areas like He is not prepared to make any Karratha because private investors positive suggestions for solving the cannot get the guaranteed returns in a problem. All his fuming and fussing short time to justify the necessary up- will not make one jot of difference to front investment. That is a normal attempts to solve the problem.