Wednesday Volume 593 4 March 2015 No. 118

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 4 March 2015

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2015 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 927 4 MARCH 2015 928

years between 2008 and 2012, but many of those jobs House of Commons are zero hours, part time and for agency workers. I have written to the Secretary of State about the prospect of Wednesday 4 March 2015 between 200 and 300 jobs being lost at 2 Sisters. Will he meet me and a delegation from the company, because it is important to the Welsh and UK food industries? The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Stephen Crabb: I absolutely will meet the hon. PRAYERS Gentleman, who knows that I take a great interest in job prospects in Ynys Môn, and we will look into the situation in more detail. I caution him against peddling [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] a gross caricature of the Welsh economy, because less than 3% of Welsh workers are on contracts that could be described as zero hours. Opposition Members are quite wrong to peddle this gross caricature of what is a Oral Answers to Questions business-led recovery that is bearing fruit.

Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): The Secretary of WALES State will be aware that the Welsh Government have nationalised Cardiff airport. What discussions has he had with the Welsh Government to ensure that they do The Secretary of State was asked— all they can to keep employment rates high? Labour Market Trends Stephen Crabb: My hon. Friend makes an important 1. Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): What assessment point. He knows that I meet Welsh Government Ministers he has made of trends in labour market statistics in frequently to discuss how we can secure the economic Wales since 2010. [907768] recovery for Wales, because it is a shared enterprise across the two Administrations: they know the efforts The Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb): I that we have made to create a strong foundation for a would like to take this opportunity, in the last Welsh business-led recovery in Wales, and we need them to Question Time before the general election, to pay tribute play their part in helping to bring unemployment down to the Welsh Members who have announced their intention across Wales. to stand down. All eight right hon. and hon. Members have served their constituencies with distinction and Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): May I begin by played a vital role in making the case for Wales, as I wishing you a belated happy St David’s day, Mr Speaker, know they will continue to do outside this House. We and all Members of the House and by adding my wish them all the very best. thanks to all the Welsh Members of all parties who are Across the UK there have never been more people in retiring, but particularly my right hon. Friends the work. In Wales there are 41,000 more people in work Members for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) and for Neath since the election, but we recognise that the job is not (Mr Hain), both distinguished former Secretaries of yet done, which is why we must stick to our long-term State who have served Wales extremely well? economic plan, which is starting to bear fruit for Wales. We have heard an impressive array of statistics from the Secretary of State this morning, but will he set aside Guto Bebb: May I associate myself with my right the spin for one moment and tell us what has really hon. Friend’s comments on the departing Members? happened to the jobs market in Wales on his watch? In my constituency unemployment has fallen by 27% How many of those new Tory jobs in Wales are on year on year, and it has fallen by over 40% since the zero-hours contracts and pay a pittance in wages? height of the recession, a situation that is replicated across Wales. Will my right hon. Friend join me in Stephen Crabb: Let us remind ourselves of what we congratulating the small businesses the length and breadth inherited in 2010. Under the previous Labour Government, of Wales that have contributed to the jobs-based recovery, unemployment across Wales had increased by 80%, and will he assure me that the policies put in place by youth unemployment had increased by 75% and, worst this Government will continue if he remains in post of all, long-term unemployment had increased by more after 7 May? than 150%. That is a scandalous record on jobs in Wales. I am proud to be part of a coalition Government Stephen Crabb: I absolutely agree that it is businesses who have created the right foundations for a business-led across Wales, and particularly in north Wales, that are recovery to turn that around. leading the economic recovery, creating the jobs that are making such a difference to the lives of families up and Owen Smith: I think workers in Wales are heartily down Wales. What puts that at greatest risk is the sick of this Tory propaganda. The truth is that of the prospect of a Labour Government with no vision or 100,000 new jobs in Wales, as the Office for National plan for the Welsh economy. Statistics said last week, 90,000 are zero-hours contracts paying, on average, £300 less per week than full-time Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): The unemployment jobs. As the Institute for Fiscal Studies said this morning, figures in my constituency have been coming down for the average family incomes of workers in Wales have the past 15 years, with the exception of the recession declined under this Government. Why does the Secretary 929 Oral Answers4 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 930 of State not say the one thing he can to workers from Alun Cairns: I am happy to point to the survey by the Pwllheli to Pembrokeshire that would give them hope: British Chambers of Commerce that showed that 77% vote Labour? of businesses support a referendum on EU membership, and said: Stephen Crabb: If the hon. Gentleman thinks that is “British businesses remain determined to see a recalibrated any kind of boon for the Welsh economy, I point him to relationship between the UK and the rest of the European Union, the opinion poll conducted by BBC Wales which this with more powers exercised from Westminster rather than Brussels.” morning shows that a majority of voters across Wales, I hope that the hon. Lady supports that comment from even in the Labour heartlands—from Rhondda to Cynon the British Chambers of Commerce. Valley, from Caerphilly to Pontypridd—prefer my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to remain as leader Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Does the rather than the Leader of the Opposition. Minister agree that businesses do not always speak with one voice on this issue? While big businesses are often EU Membership the most able to cope with the bureaucracy sent to us from Brussels and might want to stay within the European 2. Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): What recent Union, very often small businesses do not? discussions he has had with business representatives in Wales on the importance of membership of the EU to Alun Cairns: My hon. Friend makes an extremely the Welsh economy. [907769] important point. Many of the people who are scaremongering now are the same people who wanted The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales to join the euro all those years ago. It is this party that (Alun Cairns): Membership of the European Union’s stands up for the British economy and stands up for single market is good for businesses in Wales. However, businesses, exactly as the British Chambers of Commerce, businesses tell me that the burdens and costs imposed the CBI and Airbus say in the quotes I have given. by the European Union are making it harder for them to grow. This Government are determined to renegotiate 13. [907780] Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): In our membership with the European Union to get a 1998, I was successful in persuading my right hon. better deal for Wales and for UK businesses, and to put Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain) to accept that to the people. Denbighshire and Conwy into the bid for objective 1 European funding. In that time, Denbighshire has had Mark Tami: How many tens of thousands of jobs in a quarter of a billion pounds of private sector and Wales does the Minister think would be at risk if the public sector funding from Europe. If Britain pulls out UK left the EU? of the EU, my constituency and my county will lose £100 million over the next seven years. What does the Minister feel about that? Alun Cairns: A renegotiated European Union provides greater opportunities for businesses in Wales. I know that the hon. Gentleman shows great interest in Airbus, Alun Cairns: May I remind the hon. Gentleman that which says: European structural funds are aimed at the poorest parts of Europe? It is no mark of celebration to say that “Regardless of which decision the UK will make, we are strongly committed to our operations in the UK”. his constituency succeeded in winning that money. This Government have a long-term economic plan to turn The British Chambers of Commerce also supports that the economy around for the longer term rather than position. I am absolutely confident that the growth in depending on the grants and handouts for which he Wales will contribute to more jobs and provide more of makes the case. He also needs to be reminded that that the certainty that people want. is our money coming back with conditions attached.

Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con): Does my hon. Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): Does the Minister Friend agree that the issue of British membership of the agree that the reforms that the CBI and others are EU is indeed of concern to the people of Wales, who recommending for the single market, and for the European have not had their say on the issue for 40 years? Does he Union in general, are absolutely right for Wales and further agree that the only way they will get that say is absolutely right for Britain, and that that should be a with the return of a Conservative Government, because consideration for the referendum? Labour will not give it to them? Alun Cairns: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Opposition Alun Cairns: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. Members talk about some sort of so-called uncertainty, We cannot pretend that this debate is not happening. but that so-called uncertainty has given us the fastest- We need to make the arguments for what the CBI growing economy in the G7 and has made Wales the wants—a reformed European Union of which the UK fastest-growing part of the United Kingdom, which we is a part. should be celebrating and marking. Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): I am intrigued. Tourism The Minister said earlier that businesses had told him various anti-EU things. Can he name a single business across the length and breadth of Wales—north, south, 3. Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): east or west—that has told him it would like Wales to When he last met representatives of the tourism sector leave the EU? in Wales; and if he will make a statement. [907770] 931 Oral Answers4 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 932

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales The Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb): We (Alun Cairns): Wales Office Ministers regularly meet have made it clear that we remain open to considering representatives of the tourism industry in Wales. Wales any well developed and privately funded proposals that is a fantastic holiday destination, and this Government come forward for harnessing the tidal range resource in will continue to do all they can to promote Wales at the Severn estuary. The right hon. Gentleman’s tenacity home and abroad. on this and a great number of other subjects will of course be greatly missed when he leaves this place. I Mr Llwyd: We are indeed fortunate in that people the look forward to meeting him next week to talk further world over want to visit the wonderful country of about the Severn barrage project. Wales—I and, I am sure, the Minister are very proud of the country—but more should be done in terms of Mr Hain: I am grateful to the Secretary of State. Is he tourism and the Welsh economy. What discussions has aware that the company now taking forward the Severn he or his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State had barrage—exclusively for any form of renewable energy— with colleagues to implement a 5% VAT rate for the requires no consumer subsidy through a contract for tourism sector, which would bring 5,500 extra jobs to difference? That could be a game changer for the Wales? Government. With your indulgence, Mr Speaker, may I thank my Alun Cairns: With permission, Mr Speaker, a gaf i Welsh Labour colleagues for their comradeship, especially dalu teyrnged i’r Aelod gwir anrhydeddus? I would like during my two years as a Welsh Minister and seven to pay tribute to the right hon. Gentleman for his years as Secretary of State for Wales? We can be proud service in this House over many years, and for the way that we established a Welsh Assembly, and it has been a in which he has led his party here. privilege to serve. VAT levels for business are of course set by the Treasury. The right hon. Gentleman rightly points to Stephen Crabb: I thank the former Secretary of State the importance to the Welsh economy of tourism, which for his question. As I said, I look forward to talking to makes up almost 15% of the work force. That is why I him in more detail about the project, and to understanding am delighted that the number of international visits last how the proposal might have changed since he and his year increased by 7.5%, or 26,000 visits. associates last presented the ideas to various Committees. Let me add that I am proud to be part of a Government Mr Llwyd: Diolch i’r Gweinidog am ei eiriau caeredig. who believe in major infrastructure investment, and I will help Hansard with the spelling later. who are delivering strategic infrastructure investment in Wales the likes of which we have never seen before. In terms of competitive disadvantage, 24 EU states already have a reduced rate of VAT on tourism. In Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): As a lifelong advocate addition, the economic study by Professor Adam Blake, of the Severn barrage, I think that we must now reluctantly using the Treasury’s own modelling technique, showed admit that the time for the barrage has gone and that that a cut in tourism VAT would increase GDP by there is a better alternative in the form of lagoons at £4 billion per annum. Newport, Cardiff and Swansea. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree? Alun Cairns: A strong tourism sector needs a strong economy. Wales is the fastest-growing part of the United Stephen Crabb: The hon. Gentleman makes a good Kingdom, which creates a greater opportunity to attract point. He is aware of my enthusiasm for the lagoons tourists from not only the UK but beyond. VisitBritain project. That is why the Wales Office worked hard to is launching the Countryside is Great campaign, from secure the inclusion of the lagoon proposal for Swansea which I know the right hon. Gentleman’s constituency bay in the national infrastructure plan. There is a planning is set to benefit. process in place and we need to respect that, but I am proud to be part of a Government who are working Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): The Minister constructively and positively with the developers to take is right to highlight the successes of the Welsh tourism the project forward. industry. Will he reflect on the benefits of a cut in VAT for rural economies, particularly those in west Wales—the Jobs Growth Wales constituency of the Secretary of State and Ceredigion, Powys and Dwyfor Meirionnydd? They would really 5. Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): What benefit because they are incredibly fragile economies. discussions he has had with Ministers in the Welsh Government on the role of Jobs Growth Wales in Alun Cairns: VAT rates are a matter for the Treasury, tackling youth unemployment in Wales. [907772] but the hon. Gentleman will be able to make such points in the forthcoming Treasury debate. We need to 8. Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): What ensure that Wales gets its fair share of VisitBritain, and discussions he has had with Ministers in the Welsh the Countryside is Great campaign provides a great Government on the role of Jobs Growth Wales in opportunity for his constituency and large parts of tackling youth unemployment in Wales. [907775] Wales to ensure that Wales is promoted internationally The Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb): I as well as within the United Kingdom. am proud of the efforts of this Government that have Severn Barrage seen youth unemployment in Wales fall by 46% over the course of this Parliament. I have discussed with the 4. Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): What assessment he Welsh Government the support that is available to help has made of the potential benefits to south Wales of people into work to ensure that there is a coherent and the Severn barrage. [907771] joined-up approach in Wales. 933 Oral Answers4 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 934

Chris Evans: Jobs Growth Wales has created 12,000 job Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Given the 80% success opportunities for young people across Wales. Why will rate of the Labour Welsh Government’s Jobs Growth the UK Government not replicate it? Wales programme and the Secretary of State’s new-found enthusiasm for devolution, why did he not include in his Stephen Crabb: The Jobs Growth Wales scheme has St David’s day announcement the devolution of the been popular with employers—it is a wage subsidy, so Work programme, which, under his Government, gets of course employers like it. It is important to recognise only a miserable 10% of clients into work in Wales and that Jobs Growth Wales is for people who are so-called is clearly failing people in Wales? job-ready. An independent evaluation by Ipsos MORI, which was commissioned by the Welsh Government, Stephen Crabb: I thank the hon. Lady for that question. found that 73% of people who found work through The crucial point is that the Work programme was Jobs Growth Wales would have found work anyway. brought forward by the coalition Government—the UK That raises questions about whether it is a good use of Government—and has helped more than 17,000 people taxpayers’ money. in Wales who had been unemployed for the longest periods. Let us not forget how complacent the previous Nick Smith: Jobs Growth Wales has created more Labour Government were about long-term unemployment than 400 jobs for young people in Blaenau Gwent. in Wales: the rate of long-term unemployment increased However, people need to be able to get to the jobs by more than 160% on their watch. market on the coast in Cardiff and Newport. Given that the funding is now agreed, when will the valley lines Cross-Border Health Care electrification be completed? 6. Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): What Stephen Crabb: I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman discussions he has had with the Welsh Minister for has referred to the valleys electrification project. It was Health on cross-border health care provision. [907773] a great achievement of this Government, along with the Welsh Government, to secure a deal to deliver electrification The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales not just of the great western line to Swansea but, (Alun Cairns): Wales Office Ministers hold regular crucially, through to the valleys communities as well. discussions with Ministers in the Welsh Government on We look forward to work starting on that project, a range of issues, including the provision of health care subject to the Welsh Government agreeing the details, services along the England and Wales border. We will in 2018-19. continue to review current arrangements to ensure that they meet patients’ needs on both sides of the border. David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is not just Jobs Growth Glyn Davies: A major problem facing rural Wales is Wales but the coalition Government’s long-term economic difficulty in attracting GPs to come to work in Wales, plan that has delivered the unprecedented falls in youth and one reason for that is the bureaucracy involved in unemployment, and that the binary choice that will be GPs having to go through a process of specific Welsh presented to the people of Wales on 7 May is between registration. Will the Minister work with the Welsh jobs, growth and prosperity and debt, deficit and dole Government and the Department of Health to bring queues? forward a common registration programme for Wales and England?

Stephen Crabb: As ever, the Chairman of the Welsh Alun Cairns: My hon. Friend makes an important Affairs Committee is exactly right. He expresses the point. We want the greatest flexibility in the NHS work situation perfectly. What puts at risk all the great progress force across the whole United Kingdom. The regulatory we have made in cutting long-term and youth burden and bureaucracy involved is unacceptable, and unemployment across Wales is the prospect of a Labour the Department of Health and Welsh Government are Government who have no plan and no vision for the working together with the support of the Wales Office Welsh economy. to put that right.

11. [907778] Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Many health services for Will my right hon. Friend note that in my constituency my constituents are delivered from England by specialist unemployment has fallen by more than 30% since my hospitals. Why do the Secretary of State and the Minister election? Will he take every opportunity to remind the want to take away the voice of MPs from Wales to electorate and the House of something that has been speak up on behalf of their constituents and look after true throughout the 23 years since I was first elected to their interests? the House, which is that every Labour Government have left office with unemployment higher than when Alun Cairns: I do not accept the hon. Gentleman’s they came to office? premise. Welsh MPs will still be here fighting for their constituents and ensuring the best care for them, be it Stephen Crabb: My hon. Friend should take pride in on the Welsh or English side of the border. That is what his record. On his watch, the falls in unemployment in we will be elected for. Cardiff North have been truly impressive over the past five years. I know that Craig Williams, our excellent Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): Rural Conservative candidate in Cardiff North, will carry on GP practices are at particular risk, as shown by the the good work through all the excellent contacts he has proposed closure of the Llanwrtyd GP surgery, and with businesses across the city. patients will have nowhere to go. Will the Minister 935 Oral Answers4 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 936 make representations not only to the Royal College of Income Tax Assignment General Practitioners but to the Wales Deanery, to encourage more GPs? 9. Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab): What recent discussions he has had with the First Alun Cairns: That is a matter for the Welsh Government, Minister on income tax assignment to Wales being but I will happily raise that point. The point made by carried out on the same basis as applies in Scotland. my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn [907776] Davies) underlines the fact that flexibility would create greater opportunity to try to fill those gaps. The Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb): I have regular discussions with the First Minister on Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): Will the Minister concede holding a referendum on the devolution of income tax that one of the main problems with the health service in to the National Assembly for Wales, as provided for in Wales is underfunding, on which the new announcement the Wales Act 2014. Following our commitment to a on further devolution has signally failed to deliver? funding floor for Wales there is no reason for the First Minister not to call a referendum in the next Parliament.

Alun Cairns: The hon. Gentleman makes an important Mr Allen: Does the Minister accept that Scotland has point about funding, and there have been many debates now set a precedent on income tax assignment that can in the Chamber about the funding of the NHS in meet the base load of its expenditure? Will he continue England and in Wales. As my hon. Friend the Member his work to ensure that Wales also has income tax for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) once said, Aneurin Bevan assigned? Will he talk to his colleagues in England to would turn in his grave if he thought that a Welsh ensure that they understand that the basis of devolution Labour Government were cutting the NHS budget while in England must be financial independence by income a Conservative Government in Westminster were growing tax assignment, too? the NHS budget. Stephen Crabb: I am a bit surprised by the hon. National Police Air Service (Dyfed Powys) Gentleman’s question, because the Government have worked really hard to deliver a devolution package for Wales that strengthens and clarifies, and makes devolution 7. Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) fairer for Wales. The negative response from Welsh (PC): What discussions he has had with the National Labour in Cardiff in recent days speaks more about the Police Air Service on the provision of helicopter divisions between Labour in Westminster and in Cardiff. services within Dyfed Powys police force area. [907774] He really should speak to his own colleagues.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns): As a police-led initiative, it is for the National Police Air Service Strategic Board to develop PRIME MINISTER the operating and financial models to meet the needs of all forces throughout Wales and England. The Prime Minister was asked— Engagements Jonathan Edwards: The Dyfed Powys helicopter base at Pembrey is a state-of-the-art facility that opened only in 2010, at a cost of £2 million to the residents of the Q1. [907852] Mr Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry force area. Last month the newly created National Barr) (Lab): If he will list his official engagements for Police Air Service reneged on an agreement made only Wednesday 4 March. last November to preserve that base. Dedicated helicopter capacity is vital to policing in the Dyfed Powys area. On The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): This morning Monday, for example, the helicopter saved the life of an I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. injured man at the LNG facility in Pembrokeshire, In addition to my duties in this House, I shall have transporting him to Heath in Cardiff. Will the Minister further such meetings later today. raise that issue with the Home Secretary and NPAS, and will he meet me to discuss the concerns of the Mr Mahmood: The Chancellor was asked six times people of west Wales? this morning whether he had had conversations with Lord Green about tax avoidance. He refused to answer. Will the Prime Minister now clarify whether he or the Alun Cairns: The hon. Gentleman makes an important Chancellor had conversations with Lord Green when point, and I pay tribute to the police and crime he was a trade Minister about tax avoidance at HSBC? commissioner, Chris Salmon, for his work on that. He has an agreement in place that extends access to the The Prime Minister: We dealt with all this a fortnight helicopter service from 12 to 24 hours, with an 85% ago. All the proper checks were made. This is the same priority recall within 20 minutes. That is delivering Lord Green, the same Stephen Green, that Labour gave more for less money. [Interruption.] a job to just before the election. That is the truth and they cannot get away from it. Mr Speaker: Order. There is a lot of noise in the Chamber. Let us have some order for the Chair of Q2. [907853] Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee A centre for excellence is to be created on the Isle of of the House of Commons, Mr Graham Allen. Wight for composites, advanced manufacturing and 937 Oral Answers4 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 938 marine technology. This project, led by GKN and we kept that promise. [Interruption.] There is plenty Aerospace and the Isle of Wight College, will benefit more. I’ve got all day, Mr Speaker. I think these are very new and existing island businesses. Does the Prime important. The contract says: Minister agree that this is an excellent example of the “We will keep the winter fuel allowance”, Government supporting the local economy and and we kept the winter fuel allowance. ensuring that young people on the island have the skills that the industries of the future will need? It said we would “ensure that cancer patients get the…treatment they need”, The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right: this is and we made sure that happened. There is lots more, so an excellent development. Solent local enterprise partnership let us keep going. There is plenty of time. [HON.MEMBERS: has received nearly £11 million in funding through the “More!”] We said we would increase health spending growth deal to build the centre of excellence for composites every year, and we have increased health spending every on the Isle of Wight. This will provide 550 students with year. We said we would introduce the married couples workshop and learning facilities, and will include more tax allowance, and we have introduced a married couples than 250 apprentices. This is all part of our long-term tax allowance. We said we would increase the basic state plan to build up Britain’s skills, build up Britain’s pension, and we have increased the basic state pension. manufacturing, build up our apprenticeships and make There is plenty more. These are commitments made, sure more people get the security and stability of work. and commitments kept. What a contrast—

Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): Before Mr Speaker: Order. I call Mr Miliband. the last election, the Prime Minister made a no ifs, no buts promise on immigration. Can he remind the House Edward Miliband: So now we know: we cannot believe exactly what that promise was? the promise on immigration from the leader of the Conservative party. It is not worth the paper it is written The Prime Minister: We promised to cut net migration. on. [Laughter.] We have cut it from outside the European Union, but it has increased from inside the European Union, not Mr Speaker: Order. I ask the House to have some least because we have created more jobs than the rest of regard to the views of the public about our behaviour, the European Union put together. given that we will be seeking their support in the weeks ahead. It is quite straightforward really. Edward Miliband: The Prime Minister was rather coy about his precise promise. It was in his contract with the Edward Miliband: They are laughing about the Prime British people: net migration cut to the tens of thousands. Minister’s broken promise on immigration. I will ask But now it is at 298,000—higher than when he took again. He promised net migration in the tens of thousands. office. Here is what he said in the contract: Will he now admit that he has broken that promise—yes “If we don’t deliver our side of the bargain, vote us out in five or no? years’ time.” When he said that, did he mean it? The Prime Minister: I have been very clear: we have cut migration from outside the EU, but we have seen it The Prime Minister: There are two reasons for high rise inside the EU. We have a plan to deal with that. The migration. One is the growth of our economy, and the right hon. Gentleman talks about commitments, but I other is that our benefit system allows people to access have a few more. The contract said we would cut that benefit system straight away. I say: let’s keep the wasteful spending, and we have cut wasteful spending. strong economy; let’s change the benefit system. The We said we would reduce carbon emissions, and we right hon. Gentleman wants to keep the benefit system reduced carbon emissions. We said we would have and trash the economy. 400,000 apprentices—we have broken that promise, because we have had 2 million apprentices. It is election time, Edward Miliband: I have to say to the Prime Minister and we are all getting to think about leaflets, so I have a that his promise on immigration makes the Deputy little question. Apparently, someone can go around to Prime Minister’s promise on tuition fees look like the his office, and he stands on a soapbox to make himself model of integrity. If he can break so spectacularly a look a little taller. How many people will put the Leader solemn promise on a fundamentally important issue, of the Opposition on their leaflets? Come on! Hands why on earth should anyone believe any of his election up! [Laughter.] I think that is enough about leaflets for promises this time? now.

Edward Miliband: So it is all about leadership. [HON. The Prime Minister: I am glad the right hon. Gentleman MEMBERS: “Yes.”] Excellent. Great. We have a good mentions the document, because I have brought it with chance to discuss these issues. The broadcasters have me. I have, as you say, procured a copy for the interests proposed a live, head-to-head debate between the Prime of the House, and I would like to run through the Minister and me on 30 April—a week before polling commitments we made. We said: day. I will be at that debate—will he? “We will protect pensions”, and we have protected pensions. We said we would train The Prime Minister: Yes, it is all about leadership, but 4,000 Sure Start health visitors, and we have trained we have seen none from the Labour party. What is 4,000 Sure Start health visitors. We said we would interesting is that we are having a debate now, and the “protect free TV licences for over 75s and keep free eye tests… for Opposition cannot talk about the economy—they cannot pensioners”, talk about jobs, because more jobs are being created; 939 Oral Answers4 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 940 they cannot talk about growth, because growth is going The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman, probably up; and they cannot even talk about living standards, like everyone in this House and most people in our because of today’s breakthrough report showing that country, knows someone who has been affected by, or living standards are back at their pre-crisis peak. I say died of, cancer. We all know that, and we know it is one let us have these debates, and let us get on with them of the biggest killers that we must get to grips with in before the election. our country. What we have seen over the last five years, partly because we have protected health spending, is a Edward Miliband: Okay, if the Prime Minister wants 50% increase of referrals into cancer treatments, so an additional debate between me and him before the about half a million extra people have been treated. election, I am happy to agree to it, but the broadcasters When it comes to cancer, what we need is earlier diagnosis have set a date. He says the election is all about me and by the GP. That is why the information campaigns him, but the one thing he wants to avoid is a televised matter so much. When people go into treatment, it does debate between me and him. I will give him another matter that the waiting targets are met. Two out of the chance: I will be there on 30 April for a debate between three key cancer targets are being met, and we need to me and him. Will he be there—yes or no? make sure that all of them are met. We also need to keep on with the cancer drugs fund, which has given The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman has many cancer sufferers access to drugs and a longer life now given up on the seven-cornered debates; he does as a result. not want to debate with the Greens any more. He watched the press conference: we all thought it was a Q4. [907855] Sir Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con): car crash; he probably thought it was a master-class. We Does my right hon. Friend agree that, too often, some are having a debate now, and he cannot talk about the of NATO’s leaders confuse announcements with economy; he cannot talk about jobs; he cannot talk action? Will he ensure that NATO does what it said it about living standards; he cannot talk about what we would do at Cardiff last year, so that those who, for have done for our economy. The reason for that is that their own domestic reasons, want to undermine the he has no leadership whatsoever. The truth is that we political and territorial integrity of the alliance realise have a recovering economy, and we must not let Labour that when we say we will defend it, we mean it, that we wreck it. have the means to do so and that we will do so? The Prime Minister: My hon. and learned Friend is Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con): Next Monday, absolutely right. That is why the Cardiff conference was a seemingly minor amendment to the Road Traffic so important. We said we would stick to article 5—and Acts—[Interruption.] we will stick to article 5. We said we would draw up an action plan to help countries in eastern Europe, including Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is entitled the Baltic states—and we are doing so. For Britain’s to be heard. part, we have the Typhoons taking part in the Baltic air patrol and we have 4,000 British troops taking part in Mr Burley: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Next Monday, a operations in eastern Europe. It is very important that seemingly minor amendment to the Road Traffic Acts we are clear to those Baltic allies that when we sign up will allow 70,000 severely disabled wheelchair-using children to article 5, we mean it. They want to hear our support— legally to use a heavier class of wheelchair that better when they face not only a conventional threat, but meets their complex needs. Will the Prime Minister join threats of cyber-attack as well. We need to show that we me in congratulating the excellent Newlife Foundation are standing with them at this time. for Disabled Children in my constituency, which has been campaigning for this change in the law for over Q5. [907856] Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): five years, and can now continue to make a real difference Without wishing to be personal, does the right hon. to the quality of life of some of the most severely Gentleman realise that many people consider him to be disabled children in our country? a Prime Minister who simply does not understand the lives of millions of people of this country who try to The Prime Minister: I am very happy, with my hon. live on modest incomes? The Tory party has been, and Friend, to praise that business and to pay tribute to all remains, the party of the rich and the privileged. those who give disabled young people the chance of more choice over wheelchairs. Anyone who has had a The Prime Minister: I would say to the hon. Gentleman child in a wheelchair knows that choice is important so that a Government should be judged according to what that their child can have a better quality of life. I am happens to the people living in the country. We are now delighted that this change in the law will help make that seeing 1.85 million more people with a job. That means possible. that 1,000 people are getting a job for every day that the Government have been in office, and it means the Q3. [907854] Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): My security of a pay packet and the chance to provide for a father died of cancer; my mother died of cancer; and family. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman shakes his mysister died of cancer. A year ago, the Prime Minister head, but that is the reality of Britain today: more set a target for those on urgent cancer referrals to apprentices, more jobs, and more people able to provide receive their first treatment within two months. Last for their families. I should have thought that the Labour year, 20,000 people did not have that target met for party would welcome that. them. Does the Prime Minister understand that, even if the national health service can survive another five Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD): The Department years of a Conservative Government, 100,000 cancer for Education has overruled Norfolk county council’s patients cannot? proposal for an interim executive board to resolve the 941 Oral Answers4 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 942 future of The Hewett School in my constituency. Will have been reduced, but the percentage of police on the the Prime Minister seek to establish why the DFE front line has risen, and crime has fallen all over the considers its own centrally imposed proposal to be country. preferable, given that it seems to go against the spirit of localism? Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con): In a dangerous world, experience as a statesman is one of the many The Prime Minister: What we have done is ensure that advantages that my right hon. Friend has over any when schools are not succeeding and when they are alternative Prime Minister. Does he agree that, in such a coasting, they are taken over and turned around, and I dangerous world, the ultimate guarantee of our security think it very important that we intervene on behalf of is our nuclear deterrent, and will he confirm that he local parents to make sure that that happens. However, would never be involved in any shabby deal to give away I will look into the specific case that the hon. Gentleman our nuclear deterrent as part of a wider deal with a has mentioned. unilateralist party, simply to get the keys to No. 10?

Q6. [907857] Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely (Lab): At a time when the Government are losing right. The ultimate guarantor of Britain’s security is our millions through tax avoidance, how does it make sense independent nuclear deterrent. That is why we support to close North Ayrshire tax office, given that every it, and will ensure that it is properly renewed during the officer there brings in taxes amounting to hundreds of next Parliament. I think it important for everyone in the thousands of pounds that would otherwise be lost to House to make that clear pledge. the Exchequer? It is concerning that nearly three quarters of Labour candidates oppose the renewal of Trident. I think that The Prime Minister: We have made at least 40 changes now is the time for Labour to rule out any agreement to ensure that people pay their taxes. We inherited with the Scottish National party, because no one wants circumstances in which foreigners were not paying stamp to see some grubby deal between the people who want duty, hedge fund managers were paying less tax than to break up the United Kingdom and the people who their cleaners, and a number of people were avoiding want to bankrupt the United Kingdom. tax on an industrial scale. [Interruption.] Opposition Members sit there now, but they were the friends of the Q9. [907860] Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) tax avoiders. They had 13 years in which to act, but they (Lab): To have the accountable Government the Prime did nothing, and it took a Conservative Government to Minister just talked about, he needs to answer the sort it out. questions asked of him. A two-way debate is planned by broadcasters for 30 April. For the third time today, I Q7. [907858] Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): ask him: will he be there? Does the Prime Minister believe that his own behaviour and that of the Leader of the Opposition during Prime The Prime Minister: I have been very clear. I have Minister’s Question Time enhances or damages the said, “Get on with the debates before the election image of the Houses of Parliament and, indeed, that of campaign,” and I think we should start now. politicians in the eyes of members of the public? Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): I bring the House The Prime Minister: Prime Minister’s Question Time good news. For the first time in 10 years British beer is, inevitably, a robust exchange. I am sure that there are sales are up. The Campaign for Real Ale said the always ways in which we can improve it, but it has an Chancellor’s scrapping of Labour’s hated beer duty important function in ensuring that we have accountable escalator and two cuts in beer duty have saved 1,050 pubs. government in our country, and that people can ask the The Sun newspaper, which champions Britain’s beer Prime Minister anything they want. drinkers, says today that the Chancellor is poised to repeat the cuts. Will the Prime Minister join me in Q8. [907859] Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) assuring beer drinkers that this Government are on the (Lab): Yesterday the Prime Minister rightly designated side of publicans and on the side of British brewers, and child sexual exploitation as a national threat. Sadly, will he urge the Chancellor to have a third cut? the police are receiving more reports of abuse than ever before, but there are fewer investigations and The Prime Minister: I praise my hon. Friend for the prosecutions than there were in 2010-11. Since then, work he has done to support the beer industry, to 16,000 police jobs have been cut. How can it be right to support Britain’s pubs and to stand up for our local cut a further 1,100 next year? communities where the pub is so often the hub of the village and the community. This Government have been The Prime Minister: Let me begin by thanking the a good friend of Britain’s pubs and the beer industry. I hon. Lady for mentioning the fact that we have made am delighted with the figures my hon. Friend read out. child sexual exploitation an issue of national importance. It always goes to show that life’s better under the That will trigger work not just by local police forces, but Conservatives. by the National Crime Agency. That means that more resources will be put into investigations of this kind, Q10. [907861] Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab): which will employ all the tools that modern police are Does the Prime Minister agree with his Minister in the able to bring to their investigations. Rather than seeing Department for Business, Innovation and Skills who priority being given to other issues, the hon. Lady will says that prosecuting people who do not pay the see priority being given to this issue. Yes, police budgets minimum wage is the politics of envy? 943 Oral Answers4 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 944

The Prime Minister: Prosecuting people for not paying Defence land in Devonport’s South Yard could create the minimum wage is absolutely the right thing to do, 1,000 new skilled jobs. As he knows, however, that and what we have done is made sure that the resources opportunity could be lost if the land is not transferred are there for that to happen, and let me give the hon. to the city council before purdah. Can he confirm when Lady the figures: 3,200 penalties have been issued for that transfer is going to happen? non-payment of the minimum wage, amounting to nearly £3 million in fines. What we have seen is the maximum The Prime Minister: I visited my hon. Friend’s penalty being increased, we are naming and shaming constituency in January to see at first hand the plans for non-compliant businesses, and we are getting that sort the maritime industrial campus, which is a very exciting of action under a Government led by me. development. As he knows, discussions are under way between Plymouth city council and the Defence Q11. [907862] Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): Our Infrastructure Organisation. I do not think there is any long-term economic recovery plan for the north-east reason why they cannot be completed by the end of the has seen wages up, apprenticeships doubled and month, and I am pressing the Ministry of Defence to do exports up, and unemployment in every constituency in everything it can to make that happen. I can also the north-east has fallen in the last year, and by 37% in confirm that funding is there, should the case be approved; Hexham. We are fixing the mess left behind by the that funding was secured as part of the city deal. This is Labour Government. Can the Prime Minister set out very important for Plymouth and I want to see it the future plan for the north-east? happen. The Prime Minister: We are setting out our long-term economic plan for the north-east. My hon. Friend is Q13. [907865] Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) absolutely right about the figures in his own constituency: (Lab/Co-op): We all know that the Prime Minister the claimant count in Hexham is down by 53%. But trebled tuition fees. Will he today rule out increasing what is really fascinating about what is happening today them again? is what is happening to youth employment, and I can tell the House a new figure: in the last year the UK saw The Prime Minister: I will tell the hon. Lady what we a bigger rise in employment levels for under-25s than have done. We have created a system in which the the whole of the rest of the European Union combined. universities are now better funded than others in Europe, That is what is happening with our economy recovering. the number of students going to university has increased The biggest risk to that economic recovery is the wrecking and the number of people from poor backgrounds has ball of the Labour party. gone up as well. The party opposite has taken four years to work out its policy, and it is a policy that hits Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): My constituent Mr Irfon universities, helps rich students rather than poor ones Williams of Bangor has been refused the drug treatment and does nothing to expand university education in our for his cancer. He has moved to England and I understand country. It is going to be paid for by additional pension he will begin treatment next Wednesday. What would taxes on senior nurses, military figures and firefighters. the Prime Minister say to Mr Williams and others who It has taken the Opposition four years to come up with have had to fight on a case-by-case basis for the treatment a completely useless policy. It is, if you like, a monument prescribed? Mr Williams himself is a senior health care to the chaos we would get under a Labour Government. professional. Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): Unemployment The Prime Minister: What I would say to Mr Williams in my constituency and across northern Lincolnshire is, first, that he has my sympathy and understanding for has plummeted since 2010, and that is in large part due the condition that he has. I hope he will get the treatment to infrastructure investment by this Government, including he needs in England, where we are investing £60 million investment in the Humber bridge and in the A160 in the in this Parliament to introduce bowel scope screening in constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes the NHS, which I think will be absolutely vital. On the (Martin Vickers). May I urge the Prime Minister to question of identifying this cancer, which is a major look closely at the possibility of a feasibility study for killer, much earlier, the English NHS is performing the electrification of the southern TransPennine line in 850,000 more operations each year compared with 2010, northern and north-eastern Lincolnshire? but the problem is that in Wales the Labour party has made the wrong decision and cut NHS spending. It did not have to make that decision, because of course the The Prime Minister: I will certainly have a look at increase in NHS spending in England triggers Barnett my hon. Friend’s proposal. As he knows, we have made money being available in Wales, so even at this late stage real progress on the electrification of railway lines as I would plead with the Labour Government in Wales: part of our infrastructure investment. I was in his make the right decision on health, increase the spending, constituency recently with representatives of the Homes increase the cancer treatments, and give people like the and Communities Agency to look at a vital road hon. Gentleman’s constituent the treatment they deserve. development that is opening up economic development there, but I would be happy to look at the electrification project as well. Q12. [907863] Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con): On a recent visit to my constituency to announce the growth fund allocation for the Heart Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): Schools of the South West local enterprise partnership, my with outstanding academic results can go for years and right hon. Friend learned how, as part of the city deal, years with no inspection of their child protection procedures. the marine industrial campus on unwanted Ministry of Is it not time to make child protection much more 945 Oral Answers4 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 946 central to the Ofsted process, and to ensure that every The Prime Minister: I am very keen to join my hon. school’s child protection arrangements are inspected Friend in this campaign because it would benefit my regularly? constituency too. We have seen a dualling of more parts of the Cotswold railway line in recent years and an The Prime Minister: I will look carefully at the hon. improvement in car parks, which is all to the good. This Lady’s point. For many years, inspections were seen as is a vital railway service—[Interruption.] We are hearing almost too routine in outstanding schools that were a lot from the shadow Chancellor today. He told us that delivering good results. We needed to focus more on the he was a “long slow burn”, but I have to say that the failing schools and those requiring improvement. She only thing lying in ashes is Labour’s economic credibility. makes an important point, however. Child sexual exploitation is an issue that we need to address in this Liz McInnes (Heywood and Middleton) (Lab): Recent Parliament and beyond, as are the issues of forced figures produced by the TUC have shown that 40% of marriage and female genital mutilation, and it is important workers in my constituency earn less than the living to know that the right safeguarding policies are in place. wage, with women particularly badly affected—53% of Of course, these things can also be triggered by boards women workers earn less than £16,000 a year. What is of governors or by concerned parents, rather than having the Prime Minister going to do to ensure that workers to have a routine inspection, but I will have a look at her in my constituency start to feel the recovery? proposal. The Prime Minister: First, I support the living wage and I think that those employers who can pay it should Mark Hunter (Cheadle) (LD): Two years ago, a toddler pay it. But what we do to help all people in this situation in my constituency, Millie Thompson, tragically died is to make sure that the minimum wage is properly following a choking incident at a local nursery. Her enforced, to see it increased over time and then, of parents set up Millie’s Trust to campaign for a change in course, to lift people out of tax. We have lifted 3 million the law to require all relevant nursery staff to have people out of tax by raising to £10,600 the amount of paediatric first aid qualifications. An e-petition with money that someone can earn before they start paying more than 100,000 signatures and a Back-Bench business tax. That has benefited low-paid people and has benefited debate led to the Under-Secretary of State for Education, women, and if we get a Conservative Government after the hon. Member for East Surrey (Mr Gyimah) promising the next election, we will raise that threshold to £12,500 a review, which is currently being undertaken. Does the so that someone can work 30 hours on the minimum Prime Minister support the campaign, and if so, will he wage and pay no income tax whatsoever. respectfully ask the Minister to get a move on? Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con): As we approach The Prime Minister: I will certainly talk to my hon. the general election, may I urge my right hon. Friend to Friend the Minister about the review. Obviously, it abandon his natural reticence and remind the British makes sense for as many people as possible to have that people that the last Labour Prime Minister destroyed sort of training, because where we can prevent accidents the public finances, ran up a massive £156 billion budget and needless loss of life, we should do so. So let me talk deficit, plundered the pension funds and sold off the to the Minister and get back to my hon. Friend. gold at a ridiculously low price, whereas under my right hon. Friend’s stewardship and five years of hard graft Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): Let us try the the United Kingdom now has the fastest growing economy Prime Minister on another one of his promises: to make in the G7, with average wages rising in real terms for the energy companies put their customers on the lowest first time since 2007? What we need is, as my right hon. possible tariff. Too many of my constituents are still Friend said, a Conservative Government. paying many hundreds of pounds more per year for energy. Will he again make that promise or is he content The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon. Friend to wait until an incoming Labour Government in May for that. I have not felt particularly reticent today, but fix this energy market? what I would say is that the economy is recovering. We see that in jobs, we now see that in living standards and The Prime Minister: What we promised was to get we see it in the lowest rate of inflation that we have had energy companies to cut their bills by taking some of for many years in our country. The economy has turned the charges off them, and that has been delivered. What around, we have turned that corner, things are getting the Labour party is promising is a price freeze even better and we must not let Labour wreck it. when prices are coming down. So even before the election John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): Labour has started to inflict real damage on consumers The suffering of constituents of mine such as Liza in our country by helping to keep prices higher than Brady, Simon Davey and James Titcombe, who lost they otherwise would be. their babies at Furness general hospital, is hard to imagine. They have had years of struggle to get to the Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): Worcestershire point yesterday where the Kirkup report put through a is one of the three fastest growing county economies in host of recommendations, both for our local hospital the UK, and in Worcester youth unemployment is now and for the wider NHS. Will the Prime Minister honour down by two thirds since it peaked under Labour. their struggle today by saying that the Government will Businesses are investing in our world-class county, but implement those recommendations in full? one factor holding back that investment is the long journey time it takes to reach us by rail from the capital. The Prime Minister: It is a very important report, Will the Prime Minister, whose constituency is on the which is why the Health Secretary made the statement same line, join me in the Fast Track Worcester campaign that he did. We want to see many of these changes put to deliver us a two-hour service? in place. Where we have problems in our NHS—we saw 947 Oral Answers4 MARCH 2015 Oral Answers 948 them in Mid Staffs and in the case that the hon. Gentleman to the whole organisation, and we need to work out how mentions—it is important that we do not sweep them to turn a hospital around; how to put it into special under the carpet; we need to be open and honest about measures; and how to get things fixed so that these them. We should send in the inspectors with the newly tragedies do not happen again. My heart goes out to all beefed-up Care Quality Commission. We have this new those people who have lost their children as a result of post of chief inspector of hospitals, which brings focus things that should never have happened in our country. 949 4 MARCH 2015 950

Point of Order Victims (Bill of Rights) Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order 12.35 pm No. 23) Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I suggest that to enhance the reputation 12.36 pm of this House, we should send the Prime Minister and Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): I beg his Ministers on a seminar to teach them the precise to move, meanings of the words “question” and “answer” and That leave be given to bring in a Bill to establish a framework the need for a link between the two. Today’s spectacle for victims of crime; to provide for the training of criminal justice was the worst ever, as the answers from the Prime staff on the impact of crime on victims; and for connected Minister to the Leader of the Opposition had no connection purposes. whatever with the questions. If we cannot improve Over the past few years, it has been my privilege to Prime Minister’s questions, would it not be better to play a part in realising changes to the law on stalking abolish them in the next Parliament, because they bring and domestic violence. During the course of the this House into further disrepute by providing a demeaning independent parliamentary inquiry into stalking law spectacle? reform, which I was honoured to chair in 2011-12, our panel—many of whom are here today—took evidence Mr Speaker: I thank the hon. Gentleman for what he from a number of victims of stalking whose experiences has said. He has made his point with his usual force and shaped a great deal of our report. Equally, in bringing alacrity, and it will be reported in Hansard tomorrow. in my ten-minute rule Bill on coercive control last As he will appreciate, I will have to leave it there. We will February, I was indebted to victims of that abuse who come to the ten-minute rule motion when Mr Pound came forward and shared their experiences with me. It is has toddled out of the way; we are grateful to him for no coincidence that both campaigns resulted in changes doing so. Other Members who are engaging in earnest to the law. Indeed, what those two campaigns had in discussions will, I am sure, wish to give the right hon. common was that each was informed by the victims and Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) whose their families. I have long harboured the view that ten-minute rule Bill it is the chance to speak to it. victims of crime do not get the support they deserve from our justice system. One victim, Tracey Morgan, gave evidence to our stalking inquiry.She said that it is not right that perpetrators get rights, while victims get only codes and charters. Complaints and appeal processes are lengthy and complex, and victims are put off engaging with the justice system at all. Harry Fletcher of the Digital Trust who, alongside Claire Waxman, drafted the original Bill presented to the Clerks, identified numerous examples of victims being badly let down by unenforceable codes, which he recalls from his time with the National Association of Probation Officers. Those examples include a victim who was not told that their offender had been released from prison following a conviction for violence; a victim who went to court to find that the impact statement was not in the Crown Prosecution Service bundle, despite the perpetrator being tried for a serious imprisonable offence; a case where the Parole Board was not aware of a victim’s view that she wanted the perpetrator excluded from her postcode because of real fears of repeat attacks; a case that took 18 months to go to court, which resulted in serious stress for the victim, who was not given any reason for the delay or multiple adjournments; a case where a victim arrived at court to find that she had to share a room with a witness for the defence and felt intimidated; numerous cases where personal information about new victims’ whereabouts was disclosed in court when the abuser was present; and a case where a victim was told not to be openly emotional in court where her son’s murderer was facing trial. She faced removal from court, believe it or not. All those examples are indicative of a wider culture of neglect, and I say neglect because that is what it is—a neglect of the justice system’s duty to protect and support victims of crime. The Bill aims to put that right by placing a responsibility on the Secretary of State to publish a victims Bill of Rights, which would be applicable to cases arising in criminal and civil courts. 951 Victims (Bill of Rights)4 MARCH 2015 Victims (Bill of Rights) 952

The Bill would ensure that victims have the right to The Bill has received cross-party support, as evidenced accurate and timely information from all relevant agencies; by the names of the supporters to whom I shall refer notice of all court and legal proceedings relating to the shortly. I believe that, like the stalking and domestic victim’s perpetrator; and direct contact details of all violence campaigns, this is an issue on which this House criminal justice agencies and individuals involved in the is united rather than divided. We want to see change, proceedings. Crucially, the Bill sets out that children because we owe it to victims of crime who have suffered and vulnerable adults should be able to give evidence wrong and they deserve just and fair treatment. I commend from a location away from court—I realise that that the Bill to the House. does happen in part—and that victims should have Question put and agreed to. access to discreet waiting areas during all court proceedings. Ordered, There is also a provision to ensure that victims would have the right to a case companion who would update That Mr Elfyn Llwyd, Sir Edward Garnier, Zac the victim on the progress of their case. Youngwitnesses Goldsmith, Sandra Osborne, Mr Barry Sheerman, John would also have access to registered intermediaries to McDonnell, Annette Brooke, Caroline Lucas, Ms Margaret help them understand court procedures. Ritchie, Hywel Williams, Jeremy Corbyn and Dr Julian Huppert present the Bill. One of the factors that troubled us most during the stalking inquiry was how frequently perpetrators were Mr Elfyn Llwyd accordingly presented the Bill. able to use the family and civil courts to make vexatious Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on claims against their victims and, in so doing, to continue Friday 27 March, and to be printed (Bill 181). their harassment of the victim. That is why this Bill would give the judiciary in family and civil proceedings SUPPLY AND APPROPRIATION the power to disallow claims that can be shown to be an (ANTICIPATION AND ADJUSTMENTS) BILL abuse of process. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Claire Waxman was one of the brave survivors of Order No. 56), That the Bill be now read a Second time. stalking who gave evidence, very bravely and fully, to our inquiry in 2011. Since then, she has mounted a Question agreed to. forthright campaign to secure a stronger voice for victims Bill accordingly read a Second time. called Voice4Victims. Ms Waxman’s campaign has gained Question put forthwith, That the Bill be now read the the support of numerous victims’ organisations and Third time. charities. A survey conducted by the campaign in 2014 Question agreed to. highlights just how frequently victims are let down by our present system. I want to share some of the survey’s Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed. findings with the House. More than 50% of the victims surveyed rated all CORPORATION TAX (NORTHERN IRELAND) agencies “extremely poorly” in communication, with BILL (PROGRAMME (NO. 2)) the Parole Board scoring the highest with 67%. Ordered, Furthermore, 55% of victims were never informed about That the Order of 27 January 2015 (Corporation Tax (Northern criminal injuries compensation; 44% were never given Ireland) Bill (Programme)) be varied as follows: the opportunity to make a victim personal statement; (1) Paragraphs (4) and (5) of that Order shall be omitted. and 64% of victims never received any advice or support (2) Proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously on writing their victim personal statement. The words concluded) be brought to a conclusion, at today’s sitting, two of the campaign’s founder, Claire Waxman, sum up the hours after the commencement of proceedings on the motion for situation powerfully: this order. “As a stalking victim, I experienced first-hand a torrent of (3) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously abuse and re-victimisation at the hands of our Criminal Justice concluded) be brought to a conclusion, at today’s sitting, three System. I naively believed the system was there to help victims, hours after the commencement of proceedings on the motion for while instead it compounds their trauma. It placed the rights of this order.—(Mr Gauke.) my stalker above my rights to be protected.” 953 4 MARCH 2015 Corporation Tax (Northern 954 Ireland) Bill Corporation Tax (Northern Ireland) Bill The fact is that credit unions in Northern Ireland have been precluded from having as broad a range of Consideration of Bill, as amended in the Public Bill services to offer their members, unlike credit unions Committee. here, and the key to broadening the range of services, of course, was to have credit unions in Northern Ireland Clause 1 regulated by the Financial Services Authority—subsequently the Financial Conduct Authority and the Prudential TRADING PROFITS TAXABLE AT THE NORTHERN Regulation Authority. IRELAND RATE However, while credit unions in Northern Ireland will be regulated from London institutions for those 12.45 pm financial services, they still come under a devolved legislative window. That goes back to the Northern Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): I beg to move Ireland Act 1998, which deliberately ousted credit unions amendment 1, page 64, line 30, after “by”, insert— from the reserved power in relation to financial services “(a) an insurance company (within the meaning given by through specific mention of the fact that devolution section 65 of FA 2012), would include the Credit Unions (Northern Ireland) (b) a building society as defined by the Building Societies Order 1985. Credit unions are therefore in a sort of Act 1986, or dual-control legislative and regulatory environment; they (c) a credit union registered under the Credit Unions are registered under devolved legislation but regulated (Northern Ireland) Order 1985 or the Industrial and Provident Societies Act (Northern Ireland) 1969.” under financial services legislation of this Parliament, and rightly so. It will not be lost on hon. Members when they see an amendment to clause 1 at page 64, line 30 just how long However, that leads to some quirks and bumps in a clause 1 we are dealing with, as we found in Committee. interpretation. A credit union Bill that would address The Bill is essentially all in clause 1 and the other some of those issues seems to be held up somewhere in clauses provide the trimmings. the Assembly processes. In those circumstances credit unions are particularly concerned that they might become In Committee, I and other hon. Members raised a unintended casualties of some of the restrictions and number of issues through probing amendments and in exceptions that are rightly being introduced with the clause stand part discussions. One issue that I raised devolution of corporate tax by the Government and was the position of credit unions in Northern Ireland. with the agreement of the parties in the Assembly. As we heard on Second Reading and as the Financial Secretary to the Treasury stressed in Committee, the Government, with the agreement of the parties in Northern Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): Does the hon. Ireland, have been at pains to make sure that any move Gentleman—indeed my hon. Friend—accept that in to devolve to the Assembly powers in respect of corporation addition to that being grossly unfair to credit unions, tax would not invite any large artificial or contrived mutuals such as the Progressive building society, which shifts by large parts of the financial services sector. employs almost 200 people and operates solely in Northern Nobody has been in the market for making sure that Ireland, in fact its back office applies only to Northern banks and other major financial services businesses Ireland, could end up being penalised by this legislation? could in any way benefit from surfing on to the devolved corporation tax rate that would be available to Northern Mark Durkan: The hon. Gentleman is exactly right. I Ireland under the Bill. Everybody is ad idem on that. have to be honest that the slightly left-handed amendment There is, however, a concern that the exclusion of the I tabled in Committee could have introduced its own financial services sector at large could lead to inadvertent difficulties, as the Minister pointed out at the time. This discrimination against credit unions or mutual building less left-handed—I apologise to any cuiteogs in the societies that are wholly and solely based in Northern House—amendment addresses the salient point in respect Ireland. of credit unions and also takes in for the first time a point that I had overlooked in Committee: the position Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): Will the hon. of a mutual building society based wholly and solely in Gentleman take this opportunity to put on the record Northern Ireland, such as the Progressive. This wider the very valuable contribution made by credit unions amendment, which thankfully has been seconded by the and mutual societies in Northern Ireland, which differs hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long), is therefore from that in the rest of the UK? In particular, can he designed to cater to both circumstances. give an idea of the number of savers and those who make use of credit unions and mutual societies? Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): It is important to recognise—I think that the hon. Gentleman will Mark Durkan: Those are points that I shall touch on agree—that the point of that exclusion was to prevent in my remarks, and I am sure that other right hon. and the kind of brass-plating whereby companies simply hon. Members will do so as well. By way of response to moved their headquarters to Northern Ireland without the hon. Lady, I make the point that there have been moving any economic activity or jobs. That is not the efforts over a number of years. When I chaired the case with either credit unions or mutuals such as the Assembly’s Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Progressive, because they are based in Northern Ireland Investment, we conducted an inquiry into credit unions and work there, creating employment and investment. in Northern Ireland, which have a very large membership base and a very strong savings base, far beyond those of Mark Durkan: I take that point fully. That is why I credit unions here, which by comparison are merely am so glad that the hon. Member has seconded the developing. amendment and spoken so strongly to its main purpose. 955 Corporation Tax (Northern 4 MARCH 2015 Corporation Tax (Northern 956 Ireland) Bill Ireland) Bill Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): I can Ian Paisley: Does that not really take the biscuit when assure the hon. Gentleman that my right hon. and hon. the Progressive is told by the Treasury that only 5% of Friends support his amendment, and I trust that the its back office will apply for an exemption? Its staff are House will accept it. scratching their heads, wondering what part of their work does not apply to Northern Ireland and to activity Mark Durkan: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that solely related to Northern Ireland. support and endorsement and hope that the House will today accept at least the spirit, logic and compelling Mark Durkan: Exactly. I take the hon. Member’s sense of the amendment. point. There is no known rational basis for it. In As I said in my opening remarks, there is no argument circumstances in which we are talking about arrangements from these Benches, or indeed from any of the parties in aimed at preventing any artifice on the part of companies, Northern Ireland, whether or not they are in the Executive just coming up with such an arbitrary figure does not or the Assembly, that large-scale financial services should particularly help. In circumstances in which we see that be able to shift profits or any of their activities simply to larger firms can be advised and assured that their net benefit from devolved corporation tax provisions. existing operations of large and hopefully growing scope However, we want to ensure that legitimate, bona fide, will be covered by the new devolved tax rate and will not not-for-profit mutualised activity is not penalised as a be caught in the exclusion of financial services, it seems result of the restrictions that are rightly being included. strange that the financial services entities that are not Credit unions and mutual building societies such as for profit, which are not taking money out of Northern the Progressive have long-standing histories, have done Ireland but recirculating it into the local economy, nothing speculative, did not need any Government bail-out would be penalised. and had no questions about their books, or about Lady Hermon: I have been watching the Government anything else, so there is nothing untoward, whiffy or Front Bench and I know that the Secretary of State for sniffy about any of their activities, because they were Northern Ireland, the Minister of State and the Financial solid, prudent and sensible. There is absolutely no question Secretary have been listening very carefully to the hon. but that the parties would want to see such organisations Gentleman, as they should. It would be helpful to us if penalised and unable to benefit from the same sort of any one of them intervened to explain how on earth devolved tax rate that would be available to small and only 5% of the back office work of the Progressive medium-sized enterprises. When we look at the scale of would qualify for an exemption under the Bill. I am the individual credit unions—remember that they are sure that the hon. Gentleman would be delighted if they regulated individually, not as some sort of conglomerate did so. activity—we see that the idea that they would find themselves caught, for corporation tax purposes, in the 1pm same category as a large bank, for instance, is absolute nonsense. Mark Durkan: I would be absolutely delighted. I However, there is a bit of a rub in this. I know that the would gladly accommodate that intervention, and not credit unions and others have listened carefully to our just in one instalment—I am prepared to take it 5% at a proceedings on the Bill. For instance, on Second Reading time if the Minister is willing. the point was made that the provisions on some classes The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David of back offices, even those working for financial services Gauke): Such is the invitation, I cannot refuse. This is a companies, could qualify for the devolved tax rate, and somewhat complex matter. I can assure hon. Members there seemed to be an inference that some of those lines that I will set out the thinking behind the Bill’s provisions had been drawn with particular operations in mind. For on financial services in terms of its principles and, in instance, Citigroup was mentioned on Second Reading, particular, the application of the 5% test relating to and it was suggested that we should all be assured that back office functions. Hon. Members are making perfectly its jobs are protected and that that work would be reasonable points, but rather than attempt to summarise subject to the devolved tax rate. That leads to a situation a complex issue that needs to be put into context, may I in which companies such as credit unions and the ask them to be a little patient, and I will be keen to give Progressive building society are saying, “Well, if the a proper answer towards the end of the debate? back office operations in Northern Ireland can qualify for the devolved tax rate, which obviously we hope will Mark Durkan: We await with bated breath the Minister’s be lower, why should the back office jobs of the Progressive great revelations and technical epiphanies. Building Society not qualify?” Whatever the Financial Secretary says about the complex The Progressive building society is being advised by dimensions of this, there is nothing complex about the Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs that only 5% of its simple logic and justice of the proposition that wholly activity might qualify for the devolved tax rate, and it and solely-owned mutuals and credit unions should be has been given no reason for that, other than that it able to benefit from a devolved tax rate. seems to be the multiplier figure in the Bill. For no reason that anyone can understand or source, it has Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): Is my been told that only 5% of its activity might qualify. The hon. Friend aware that the Assembly’s Committee for Government are telling other financial services that Enterprise, Trade and Investment, which he used to they want them to work as hard as possible to maintain chair, is also supportive of the stance that he and other a high-street presence, which the Progressive building Northern Ireland Members are taking? It believes that society has done, including new investment in my mutual societies and credit unions based in Northern constituency. It just seems bizarre that it should be Ireland should be included within the Bill and able to penalised without a thought. That is why so many hon. avail themselves of the same reduced rates of corporation Members are here to support the amendment. tax as other Northern Ireland-based organisations. 957 Corporation Tax (Northern 4 MARCH 2015 Corporation Tax (Northern 958 Ireland) Bill Ireland) Bill Mark Durkan: It is indeed the case that the Committee are in no worse a position because of it.”––[Official Report, for Enterprise, Trade and Investment, through its chair, Corporation Tax (Northern Ireland) Public Bill Committee, 5 February our party colleague Patsy McGlone, made a written 2015; c. 51.] representation to the Secretary of State that has been Can the hon. Gentleman help the House in dealing with circulated to all Northern Ireland MPs on behalf of the the Minister’s point? Committee and is supported by all the parties on it. Mark Durkan: It was a bit of an enigma to some of During my time on the Committee, all the parties us on the Committee. Although we asked the Minister worked to help navigate through the complexities of about it, not much light was cast on the limbo status of how we could alter the regulatory footing for credit credit unions whereby they are neither included nor unions in Northern Ireland so that they could offer excluded. Subsequently, I asked him about the power in more services, without abandoning the rightful devolved clause 1, page 66, to amend the definitions of “excluded interest in relation to credit unions. The Committee’s trade” or “excluded activity” or to make provision representations have been endorsed with backing vocals about the meaning of “back office activities”. That from the Committee on Finance and Personnel in the gives the Treasury a fair degree of leeway in making form of a letter from its chairman, Daithí McKay. subsequent adjustments. I asked him whether that implied Again, the letter is on behalf of the whole Committee that some accommodation could be made regarding the and supported by all the parties on it. particular sensitivities around credit unions—and now Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I add Northern Ireland-based mutuals, as we are all The hon. Gentleman alluded to this at the outset, but it joined in making that case. I hope that he will be able to might be beneficial to remind the Minister of the deep shed some light on that. If he can assure us that we are penetration of credit unions within Northern Ireland. all working under a misapprehension and that our There is a quantum of difference in relation to England, concerns can be allayed, then so much the better, but Scotland and Wales. There are tens of thousands of people want to see it clearly in the Bill and do not know members of credit unions across Northern Ireland; they why it should not be there. are an integral part of society and have been for decades. The Northern Ireland credit unions fall within the legislative remit of the Assembly in respect of their Mark Durkan: I fully take the hon. Gentleman’s registration and some of their activities, so it would be point. That was recently made apparent within the bizarre if it was denied the specific power to set their precincts of this Parliament when a delegation from corporation tax rate in the same way that it would for the Irish League of Credit Unions gave evidence to the SMEs, for example. all-party group on credit unions, chaired by the hon. As credit unions are well embedded into the communities Member for Worcester (Mr Walker). The league pointed in which they are based, it just does not seem fair that out that nearly 450,000 credit union members are accredited they should be subjected to a corporation tax rate that to it in Northern Ireland. The credit unions in Northern is very different from the rate for the businesses they Ireland have total assets of over £1.2 billion. work alongside in those communities and neighbourhoods. Credit unions do not pay corporation tax on their As we identify in the amendment, we want to extend lending activity—perhaps that was one of the misdirections the same consideration to the Progressive building society, in my original amendment in Committee—but they do for instance. Ministers may suggest that designing the pay it on their investments. There are issues about how clause to suit the particular circumstances of the Progressive the regulators have treated that in limiting some of the building society would create the danger that we might investments that they are able to make, although my somehow admit all sorts of others to the benefits of conversations with regulators suggest that we may be doing such activities. However, just as the details of turning a corner of understanding and a slightly more regulations specify a threshold of business for small and relaxed interpretation may be on the way. In 2012, medium-sized enterprises, the amount of employment, credit unions in Northern Ireland paid £3.75 million in and the percentage of work time and expenses in Northern corporation tax on their investments. The three credit Ireland as opposed to elsewhere in the UK, so other unions in my constituency alone pay between them over measures could easily be built in to protect building £0.5 million in corporation tax on their investments. societies and mutuals that wholly, solely or at least very That is a significant amount of money to them given largely base or centre their activities in Northern Ireland, that it purely goes back to their members in dividend rather than organisations that operate more widely and payments. It is not going off to make profits by being might artificially skew some operations to the north of speculatively invested in property or in any dubious Ireland to benefit from the corporation tax rates. If that market activities; it is staying very much within the is a concern or issue for Ministers, it could easily be traditional meat and drink of credit union activity, and accommodated. rightly so. On that basis, it would be perverse to treat credit unions as being in the same category as a financial It is clear that there is broad support on this issue services corporation that may try to move in from from the parties in this House and from the wider range London, Edinburgh or elsewhere in order to artificially of parties in the Northern Ireland Assembly. Nobody avail itself of a devolved corporation tax rate. intended, assumed or understood that credit unions and legitimate, bona fide locally based mutuals, such as Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): We await the the Progressive, would be caught in the Bill’s preclusions. Minister’s more detailed explanation and context setting, We are seeking targeted and focused exceptions with the but he said in Committee, on credit unions paying aim of ensuring that credit unions in Northern Ireland corporation tax on investment income and capital gains: do not unduly pay corporation tax. “As credit unions do not have a trade of lending money for The amendment is an attempt by the parties to recognise corporation tax purposes, they are therefore neither explicitly that—unlike credit unions in Great Britain, which have included nor excluded from the Northern Ireland rate and as such been able to benefit from Government finance in the 959 Corporation Tax (Northern 4 MARCH 2015 Corporation Tax (Northern 960 Ireland) Bill Ireland) Bill form of growth, development and modernisation funds important because it helps to target the regime at only over the years—credit unions in Northern Ireland have genuinely employment-generating activity in Northern not benefited from direct funding. Credit unions in Ireland. It also limits the risk that Northern Ireland Northern Ireland are adjusting to the new regulatory ends up with a significant increase in the cut to the obligations under the Financial Conduct Authority and block grant, without any genuine economic activity. I the Prudential Regulation Authority, which have created believe that all Members will agree with such a principle, issues of corporate governance, training and IT standards, which was supported in our constructive and considered but none of that has been funded or supported in any debates on Second Reading and in Committee. way. One compensation that we might, with due diligence, Colleagues from across the House agreed that the seek to extend to them would be to make sure that they design of the regime must limit incentives and opportunities are at least exempted from the higher rate of corporation for artificial profit shifting, as I believe the proposals tax that is meant to apply to big corporates and businesses do. Hon. Members will see that the Bill does not distinguish in financial services. That is the salient point of the between different types of industry or business—for amendment. example, it does not exclude financial services, banking I hope that the Financial Secretary will acknowledge or building societies—but the nature of the excluded that amendment 1 would not trigger any of the difficulties trades and activities means that they are those that he said would have arisen from the original amendment predominantly carried out by the financial sector, including in Committee. The scope of this amendment extends building societies. Excluding trades and activities, rather beyond credit unions to take in other legitimate mutual than types of business, ensures that the rules do not organisations, such as the Progressive building society—in have an adverse impact on a particular type of business fact, that is the only one I can distinctly identify—and structure; the focus is on the mobility of the activity. that is included for a purpose. I hope that the Financial Secretary and the Secretary of State, who has received The mobility of profits for building societies is similar representations from Committees of the Assembly, will to that for banks, and building societies and banks both show some understanding. I look forward to hearing carry out similar activities, as defined in chapter 17. It is any explanation but also, more importantly, any assurances therefore hard to argue that building societies should be about how the Government intend to respond to such treated differently from other organisations, such as issues as the Bill is taken forward and as its various banks, that carry out the very same types of activity. To rule-making powers are operated in future. do so could undermine the principles that I have outlined, particularly the principle of limiting profit shifting. Mr Gauke: As we have heard, the amendment tabled Furthermore, there is a risk that the amendment would by the hon. Members for Foyle (Mark Durkan) and for provide building societies with a competitive advantage Belfast East (Naomi Long) aims to bring otherwise over banks, which was never the intention of the reforms. excluded trading profits of building societies and credit Similarly, to treat building societies differently on the unions within the scope of the Northern Ireland rate of basis of whether all or only some their activity is in corporation tax. As it covers two different areas, I will Northern Ireland could lead to an uneven playing field. respond to each in turn. It might provide opportunities for companies to profit It may be helpful to remind the House that the design shift—for example, by setting up subsidiaries in Northern of the Northern Ireland regime has been guided by a set Ireland without bringing additional private sector of principles agreed between the Northern Ireland Executive employment. and the UK Government. The principles were agreed in In line with the objective of attracting genuine growth the joint ministerial working group process in 2012. and employment, we will however allow companies Once again, I am grateful to colleagues in the Executive with certain excluded trades and activities the option to for their co-operation and their constructive approach make a one-off election for their back-office functions in those discussions. to qualify for the Northern Ireland rate. Not only do those activities not pose the same risk of profit shifting 1.15 pm as the excluded activities, but they provide a fertile area In brief, the regime must be attractive to businesses, of employment in Northern Ireland, so we take the including in having only proportionate administrative view that it is right to allow them within the regime. burdens; it must encourage genuine economic activity Such activities are generally to support other profit- in Northern Ireland; the costs for the Northern Ireland making activities, rather than to be directly profit making Executive must be proportionate and kept to a minimum; in themselves. Therefore, we will compute a notional and the regime must satisfy state aid rules. I mention profit for the activities, which will be chargeable at the those principles to provide the background to why we Northern Ireland rate. It will be calculated by applying designed the regime in the way we did, in keeping with a 5% mark-up to the costs of the Northern Ireland the approach agreed with the Executive. I understand back-office activity. For example, if a company has the intent behind the amendment, but its effect could be eligible costs of £1 million from back-office activities, to undermine those principles and create wider risks to £50,000 of its profits would be chargeable at the Northern the regime. Ireland rate. That levels the playing field with companies Let me respond to the points raised about building that provide back-office functions through stand-alone societies. As we know, to limit the risk of profit shifting companies—in other words, companies whose back-office from the rest of the UK, the Bill excludes profits from functions are not part of an excluded trade. Such stand- certain highly mobile activities and trades from the alone companies will have their profits charged at the Northern Ireland corporation tax rate. Chapter 17 in Northern Ireland rate because they will be carrying out clause 1 lists those excluded activities, which include a non-excluded trade—usually that of providing services. lending and investment. Excluding those activities is I believe that that is the fairest approach. It places all 961 Corporation Tax (Northern 4 MARCH 2015 Corporation Tax (Northern 962 Ireland) Bill Ireland) Bill companies with similar lending and investing activities does investment income for every other business. In that on a similar footing, while supporting the services sector sense, credit unions will be unaffected. I hope that the and minimising the risk of profit shifting. hon. Lady is reassured. If building societies carry out Let me turn to the part of the amendment that deals excluded trades, they will be treated as they are currently with credit unions. The hon. Gentleman tabled a similar and the Northern Ireland regime will not apply. That is amendment in Committee. As I said then, although I based on the principles that were agreed with the Northern share his support for credit unions, I believe that the Ireland Executive. The Northern Ireland corporation amendment is unnecessary. The amendment seeks to tax regime is about trading profits. If something is not a change the part of the Bill that excludes certain financial trading profit, it will not fall within the Northern Ireland trades and activities, and to bring credit unions within regime. We are applying that consistently. As it happens, the scope of the Northern Ireland corporation tax rate. credit unions do not pay corporation tax on their trading profits anyway, so they will not be adversely affected. The Bill does not explicitly include or exclude credit unions from the Northern Ireland rate, as has been mentioned and as I said in Committee. That is because Lady Hermon: I am genuinely very grateful to the the part of the Bill that excludes lending activity is not Financial Secretary. He has categorically assured the relevant to credit unions. Credit unions already benefit House and all those who will read the Hansard report of from special corporation tax rules and those will continue this debate that credit unions and the Progressive mutual to apply once the Northern Ireland regime and rate society will not be adversely affected by the Bill if it commence. Under those special rules, when a credit goes through unamended. Will he sum up how they will union makes a loan to its members the related income is benefit from the legislation? It is nice to know that they removed from the trading income charge, so credit will not be negatively affected, but how will they benefit unions do not pay corporation tax on loan interest that from the legislation? There is an unfairness. Northern is received from members. Credit unions are not permitted Ireland is a very small jurisdiction. It is ridiculous that to make loans to non-members. Therefore, they are banks down the road will benefit from the Bill, but that subject to corporation tax only on capital gains and credit unions that have served all sides of the community income arising from the investment of surplus funds, as for years and years will not benefit from it. Let him the hon. Gentleman acknowledged. stand up and assure credit unions that they will benefit. That would be very helpful. Those types of income are wholly outside the Northern Ireland regime. That is because a key part of the regime is that it applies only to trading profits, and not to Mr Gauke: The first point to make is that there are investment income or capital gains. That design feature certain excluded activities. Lending and investment are was agreed between the Government and the Northern excluded. Whether the entity concerned is a bank or a Ireland Executive. Therefore, such activity is unaffected building society, if the activity is excluded, it is excluded. by the new rules and the new rate. The fact that trades There is therefore a level playing field. Secondly, we are and trading activities relating to lending and investing making provision for back-office services. It will be are excluded is not relevant to credit unions. Changing possible for a calculation to be made on the profit that the rules to bring the income of credit unions within the is attributable to back-office functions by applying a 5% trading income charge would almost certainly have the mark-up to the cost of those back-office functions. The perverse effect of increasing the tax that credit unions lower corporation tax rate in Northern Ireland—assuming pay, because their trading income would then fall within that it is lower—will apply to that. That will be of the corporation tax net, which it does not currently. benefit to institutions, including building societies, in Northern Ireland. I hope that hon. Members will agree that the amendment is unnecessary in relation to credit unions. As for building I would also make the wider point, which has been societies, it would create risks of profit shifting and of made by the Northern Ireland Executive on many occasions, an unlevel playing field across businesses with similar that the ability to set corporation tax rates will be good activities. I hope that hon. Members agree that that for the Northern Ireland economy. That is why the would be unfair and would not fall within the guiding Northern Ireland Executive want the power. What is principles of the Northern Ireland regime. good for the Northern Ireland economy will presumably benefit institutions based in Northern Ireland, whether they be credit unions or building societies. That is the Lady Hermon: Many people save with credit unions case that the Northern Ireland Executive have made in Northern Ireland and the credit unions are assisted to us. valiantly by many teams of volunteers. Will the Financial Secretary kindly give a reassurance—a guarantee, in When the Northern Ireland regime was designed, it fact—that if the Bill goes through unamended and the was focused on trading income for very good reasons. amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Over the course of the debates in Committee, there has Durkan), which we all support—not just the parties, been a wide consensus that it is correct that it is focused but even independent Members—is not agreed to, credit on trading income. It would not be consistent with that unions and the Progressive mutual society will not be approach for me to accept the amendment. I therefore adversely affected when it becomes legislation? urge the hon. Gentleman to withdraw it. If he presses it to the vote, I will advise Government Members to Mr Gauke: I can give that reassurance. They will not oppose it. I understand the widespread view, which has be affected by the legislation. Credit unions have two been articulated strongly this afternoon, on the importance types of income on which corporation tax could be of the credit union sector in Northern Ireland, but charged. There is no corporation tax charge on their accepting the amendment would be a mistaken approach. trading income, as I have set out, and their investment income will fall outside the Northern Ireland regime, as Mark Durkan rose— 963 Corporation Tax (Northern 4 MARCH 2015 Corporation Tax (Northern 964 Ireland) Bill Ireland) Bill Mr Gauke: I will give way one last time if the hon. that the Minister tried to make for building society Gentleman wants me to, or perhaps he wishes to speak considerations would not apply to credit unions—certainly once I have sat down. not to those that operate under the Credit Unions (Northern Ireland) Order 1985 or any other Northern Mark Durkan: Maybe both. Ireland-specific legislation that might come through the Assembly in future. Mr Gauke: I give way. The Minister made a number of points about definitional Mark Durkan: Will the Minister indicate whether the standards that have been used. He portrayed the Treasury’s powers in proposed new sections 357XH and 357XI of understanding of those terms, but as I have indicated, I the Corporation Tax Act 2010, which appear on page 66 have no sense that that was the working understanding of the Bill, might in any way address in practice some of or definitive intent of the Executive. After all, letters the concerns that we have voiced, as he seemed to hint that have come from two cross-party Assembly Committees in Committee? do not seem to have met with any cautionary advice from their respective Departments, or by Ministers Mr Gauke: I return to the point that I have made saying, “Oh no, don’t upset this; there is an understanding about the fundamental structure or principles behind and you will upset a delicate arrangement. You’ll open the devolution of corporation tax rate-setting powers to the floodgates and there will be all sorts of unintended Northern Ireland. I have given a fairly lengthy response, consequences.” Everybody seems to be on board with because I thought that it was appropriate to put in the spirit of the amendment, just as they are largely on context the 5% computation in respect of back-office board with the spirit of devolving corporation tax for functions. There is the ability to come back to that. As certain businesses. Nobody has an issue with the concept hon. Members are aware, the OECD is looking, as part that the Assembly will have control over the rates of of the base erosion and profit shifting process, at how corporation tax for qualifying businesses, and that the much profit can be attributed to back-office functions. Treasury will remain in control over all the rules on that If memory serves, it is looking at a range of 2% to 5%, and other things such as allowances. People seem to so we are at the upper end of that. There is the ability to broadly agree with that architecture. make adjustments if there is evidence that there should Where parties are concerned about the detail it is be a higher mark-up for back-office functions. There is because we want credit unions and Northern Ireland-based flexibility on that point if the evidence is presented to us mutuals not to be treated in the same way as the and a strong case is made. However, we believe that 5% corporate and possibly multinational financial services is the right level. conglomerate that the Minister seems to have in mind—the With that explanation, I hope that the hon. Gentleman kind of people he thinks might suspiciously or dubiously can be persuaded to withdraw his amendment. If not, shift activities. That does not apply to wholly grown we will oppose it and I will advise my colleagues to vote indigenous entities that are rooted in the community. against it. The investment activities of credit unions are not for 1.30 pm any speculative purposes but are to ensure that credit unions—on the basis of the same thrift that they encourage Mark Durkan: I am disappointed by the tone struck for their members—are able to show thrift and due by the Minister, because Members present—from all diligence at a corporate level, and ensure that they are in parties and none—have made it clear that we are not a strong position to assist their members. Credit unions here to beat up the Government about this issue but are in Northern Ireland do not assist their members just to here in a spirit of understanding from parties across the save; they also have a good working track record in Executive and Assembly. The Minister has called the assisting people with problems such as debt. That is Executive in aid several times, and he said that negotiations currently an issue, perhaps because regulators do not between the Treasury and the Executive have been clear want credit unions to assist people with debt in the way about focusing on trading activities. Nobody—officials they have sometimes done. Unlike advisers who perhaps or Ministers—who conducted those negotiations on the assist people in debt by creating circumstances in which part of the Executive intended to characterise credit they walk away from the debt and get discharged under unions and the like of the Progressive building society various agreements, credit unions help people to repay as trading operations, because they do not trade for that debt. They are in a stronger position to do that profit—they are not conventional commercial trading when they rely not just on the savings of their members entities in that sense. One as a mutual building society is but on sound investments. Those sound investments go clearly putting all its money back into its operations, back into the workings of the credit unions, and ensure and it all goes into Northern Ireland—none of it is that they are able to meet the new obligations and speculatively streamed elsewhere. None of it has been regulatory standards for which they are not getting any lost, and no cost has fallen on the Government purse in financial support, unlike their counterparts in Great any way. Britain. It seems only fair and sensible to allow them Similarly, credit unions are not in the business of that consideration in terms of corporation tax. trading as such, and there is no way that they would allow the provision in the Bill to be abused by anybody The Minister talks about credit unions as trading else to shift activities or profits. Under credit union activities, but let us compare them with activities of a legislation, credit unions in Northern Ireland must show similar size—with small and medium-sized enterprises—in a common bond that must be wholly within Northern Northern Ireland that operate in the same neighbourhoods Ireland. There will therefore be no question of abuse or and district centres. Why should credit unions be in a of stuff being shifted or anything else. The argument different category from neighbouring trading businesses? 965 Corporation Tax (Northern 4 MARCH 2015 Corporation Tax (Northern 966 Ireland) Bill Ireland) Bill [Mark Durkan] us against our own representations? We have no part of it, and that was not what we understood or intended They do not regard themselves as trading in that when we negotiated” conventional sense, so why should they be penalised and treated differently? Mr Gauke: The Bill is based on the principle of If the Minister does not want us to put the amendment separating trading activities from investment activities, to the vote, will he at least indicate that he is prepared to and for a very good reason to do with profit-shifting listen not just to what we are saying in the House, but to risks and so on. The hon. Gentleman rightly points out future conversations in the Executive? After this debate that there is the capability to make amendments in and discussions in Assembly Committees, I think the future to regulatory powers and so on. It is not for me Executive will make it clear that they do not like being to bind the next Parliament, but those powers do exist called in aid in the way the Minister did when he lined so there is the ability to look at arguments. I hope he them up behind his arguments, which I do not believe finds that reassuring. The only point I would make, and Executive Ministers endorse. it is the point I made both in Committee and today, is Will the Minister look at the provision on powers on that there is a very good reason, accepted by all, for a page 66 of the Bill? It states: divide between trading profits and investment profits. If we were to break that rule—a principle that runs through “The Treasury may by regulations amend this Chapter so as to all legislation here—it would raise a number of important alter the meaning of ‘excluded trade’ or ‘excluded activity’ for the purposes of this Part. questions on where to draw the line. I am sure he recognises that, but I had to make that point. (2) Regulations under this section may only be made if a draft of the statutory instrument containing them has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, the House of Commons. Mark Durkan: I take that point from the Minister; (3) Regulations under this section— nevertheless, the provisions in the Bill that I just quoted allow the Treasury to draw and redraw that line in (a )may make different provision for different purposes;—” future. There is no argument in principle with that, even that is essentially what we are saying— though we know that it may be arbitrary and capricious “(b) may make incidental, supplemental, consequential and transitional as well. It may well be the subject of representations provision and savings.” when it happens, but we are asking for the spirit of that Proposed new section 357XI continues: power to be used and even reflected in the Bill, if “(1) The Treasury may by regulations make provision about possible. the meaning of ‘back-office activities’ for the purposes of this The point we need to go back to is that the Minister Part. relies on the definition of trading activity. People will (2) Regulations under this section may, in particular— find it hard to see that the Government can, for a good (a) specify activities that are, or are not, back-office activities, and understandable reason, make sure—and want to or declare on Second Reading—that something like the (b) specify circumstances in which activities are, or are not, to operations of Citigroup in the Titanic Quarter in Belfast be regarded as back-office activities. are catered for. In spite of the fact that we are talking (3)Regulations under this section— about international financial services activity, that will come under the devolved corporation tax rate, but (a) may make different provision for different purposes; somehow, under this handcuff the Minister is creating (b) may make incidental, supplemental, consequential and in the definition of trading activities, credit unions and transitional provision and savings.” mutual building societies such as the Progressive cannot If the Treasury is accruing to itself the power to make be. That is what people see as disproportionate, artificial adjustments, and to interpret and respond to behavioural and unfair. The Assembly clearly wants to know that, issues and practices to anticipate possible interpretative when it has the power to set a corporation tax rate for challenges in the future, it must show that it is willing to small and medium-sized enterprises and has legislative listen to one sensible and compelling interpretive issue power over credit unions, credit unions will pay the that has arisen. devolved rate of corporation tax on their investment We have identified a clear wrinkle in the Bill that is income. That seems fair and reasonable in the overall not intended by parties in the Executive or the Assembly scheme of things. at large, or by independent Members from Northern I hope the credit unions in Northern Ireland will Ireland in this House. Understandably, given the way continue to thrive and grow, and no doubt they will. that the Bill was scrambled forward—we know the issue However, at no point is the amount of money they will was there, hung around and went forward and back, be paying in corporation tax or the amount of relief and we are legislating in relatively short order—it takes they will receive from the corporation tax rate going to time to give the issue more consideration. If the Government bust the Assembly’s or the Exchequer’s budget. We are say that because some concerns about interpretive openings talking about clear, definable, workable and absorbable might arise they are not minded to accept the amendment, margins here. The money would be used for good and perhaps they will assure us that they will listen to the understandable purposes, and never sold for profit or points that have been made. given away in gross bonuses or anything else like that. The Secretary of State has heard from the Assembly The same applies in respect of the Progressive building Committees. I do not know what she intends to write to society. them, but if she writes in the same terms as those in The Minister said that if I pressed the amendment to which the Minister addressed the House, by quoting the a Division he would vote against it. I do not want to Executive, she will find that a strong argument comes create a complete lock-in on the issue. I do not want the back. The parties will be saying, “How dare you quote Government to find themselves locked in on an argument 967 Corporation Tax (Northern 4 MARCH 2015 Corporation Tax (Northern 968 Ireland) Bill Ireland) Bill they cannot climb down from. I just encourage the The tax base, including reliefs and exemptions, will Secretary of State and the Financial Secretary, who are remain under the control of the UK Government. The both here listening to the debate, to stay open not just to earliest financial year for which Northern Ireland could the arguments they have heard from me and other hon. have its own rate is 2017. This allows time for businesses Members today, but to listen very closely to the arguments and agents to become familiar with the new rules. The they will be hearing from the Executive, the Assembly power will enable the Executive to encourage genuine and the credit union sector in Northern Ireland—not investment that will create jobs and growth, meeting the just the credit unions that are members of the Irish shared goal of the UK Government and the Executive League of Credit Unions, but the Ulster Federation of of rebalancing the Northern Ireland economy away Credit Unions and other credit unions too. from our dependence on the public sector. The Minister has heard the arguments, although he I would like to briefly remind hon. Members of the has perhaps not listened to them as well as I would have aim of this policy and the key measures within the Bill. wanted him to. I do not accept the points he has made As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor said in the in supposed rebuttal, because I do not think they stand autumn statement: up to the facts. I also do not think they stand up to “we recognise the strongly held arguments for devolving corporation some of the terminology used in the Bill. After all, the tax-setting powers to Northern Ireland.”—[Official Report, Minister on a previous occasion, as quoted by the right 3 December 2014; Vol. 589, c. 314.] hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds), said that These include: its land border with the very low corporation in the Bill as drafted they are neither included nor tax environment in the Republic of Ireland; the fact excluded from the devolved corporation tax rate. It that Northern Ireland is more dependent on the public seems very clear from what the Minister is saying today sector than most other parts of the UK—estimates of that for the purposes of the corporation tax they do pay the extent of this dependence vary, but it is generally on their investment income, they will definitely be excluded accepted that about 30% work in the public sector, from the devolved corporation tax rate. The Minister compared with about 20% in the rest of the UK; the seems to have left us in very little doubt about that, claimant count in Northern Ireland in October 2014 unless he wants to indicate that, under the powers was 5.9% compared to 2.8% in the UK as a whole, and outlined on page 66, that may be subject to other the unemployment rates are reducing more slowly than interpretation in the future. That is something I would the rest of the UK; and economic prosperity—GVA per certainly encourage if the Government are not prepared capita—is persistently some 20% below the UK average to accept my amendment, or any other amendment that and has been for a number of decades. To a large I hope will be tabled in another place. degree, many of these issues are the legacy of the That said, I have no wish to press my amendment to a troubles. Division at this point, because I do not want to put Devolving corporation tax recognises these unique people in that sort of difficulty. I want the Government challenges. The Northern Ireland regime has been carefully to move on this, and I will not give the Government an designed to enable the Executive to encourage genuine excuse to embed their position. I beg to ask leave to investment that will create jobs and growth, while withdraw the amendment. minimising opportunities for avoidance and profit shifting. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. It balances this with the need to keep the costs of a Third Reading reduced rate proportionate, both for the Executive and in relation to any additional administrative burdens for 1.46 pm businesses. The design of the regime builds on the principles agreed in 2012 by the joint ministerial working Mr Gauke: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read group, which included Ministers from the Treasury, the the Third time. Northern Ireland Office and the Northern Ireland I would like to start by noting the immense amount Executive. In essence, companies trading in Northern of hard work done by my right hon. Friend the Secretary Ireland will attract a Northern Ireland rate on their of State for Northern Ireland and, before her, my qualifying trading profits but continue to pay the UK right hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire rate on profits from non-trading activities, which do not (Mr Paterson) in getting this policy to where it is today. generate jobs or economic growth in the same way. The parties of Northern Ireland are united in calling for Similarly, the regime does not extend to financial this measure, saying that trades such as lending, leasing and reinsurance, as they “Securing the power to lower corporation tax is a key priority offer significant scope for profit shifting without the for the Executive to promote the growth of the local community.” benefits of substantial new jobs. The regime does not I welcome the ongoing co-operation of colleagues in provide opportunities for brass plating, but the policy the Northern Ireland Executive. I thank all hon. Members recognises the genuine growth and employment potential who have contributed constructively and positively to for Northern Ireland offered by back-office operations. the scrutiny of the Bill, even if we have not managed to Companies with financial trades not covered by the reach complete agreement this afternoon. We have now Northern Ireland regime may make a one-off election reached the final stage of this House’s consideration of in respect of profits, determined by mark-up, on the the Corporation Tax (Northern Ireland) Bill. I have back-office functions of those trades to qualify for the been pleased by the wide-ranging and informed debate Northern Ireland regime. we have had. This measure will allow the Northern Ireland Executive David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): I thank my hon. and the Northern Ireland Assembly to set a different Friend for his hard work in taking the Bill through the rate of corporation tax from the rest of the UK for House. It is important for Northern Ireland and its most types of trading profits arising in Northern Ireland. unique circumstances, but does he agree that there will 969 Corporation Tax (Northern 4 MARCH 2015 Corporation Tax (Northern 970 Ireland) Bill Ireland) Bill [David Rutley] agreed their budget for 2015-16, passing their Budget Bill last week, while the Welfare Reform Bill passed its probably be lessons for the rest of the UK to learn from Further Consideration stage in the Assembly at the end Northern Ireland about further reducing corporation of February. The Government will continue to assess tax to make our country even more competitive? progress as the Bill moves forward, and in future years as decisions on implementing the powers are to be Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend raises an important point. taken. We are in an era when countries are generally reducing corporation tax rates. In this Parliament, we have reduced Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): As we have our rate from 28% to 21% and are about to reduce it recently seen, a cut in the higher rate of income tax further to 20%, although some advocate that we reverse leads to increased revenues—from the dynamic effects—so some of that progress. I also note that the Indian has the Treasury done any modelling on the optimum Government set out a plan at the weekend to reduce rate of corporation tax, if the aim is to maximise their corporation tax rates. Certainly, I think that the revenue? whole UK will be watching the experience in Northern Ireland very closely to see what economic benefits arise Mr Gauke: My right hon. Friend will be aware of the as a consequence of a reduced rate. Treasury’s study into the effects of our reductions in UK corporation tax, and it was clear that they would Lady Hermon: In case we are building up false hope, I result in increased investment and growth in the UK. would be grateful if the Minister made it clear that The Treasury’s assessment was that about half of the reducing the rate of corporation tax—if that is what the forgone revenue consequent on the reduction in corporation Northern Ireland Executive decides to do in 2017 or tax would be recovered over time. As the OECD has set thereafter—on its own will not rebalance the Northern out on numerous occasions, there is a strong case for Ireland economy or guarantee the creation of one extra saying that corporation tax is one of the more growth- job. We need a range of measures that combine to damaging of taxes—it is economically very inefficient, rebalance the economy. being a tax on investment—and therefore making progress on that front is to be welcomed. Come April, the UK will have the lowest rate of corporation tax in the G20, Mr Gauke: The hon. Lady makes an important point, and we on the Government Benches would want to although it is for the Northern Ireland Executive to maintain that position, despite the calls from others judge how to proceed. In the UK, our reductions in to abandon such an approach. corporation tax have been an important part of our long-term economic plan, but they have not been the The Stormont House agreement also outlined the only part, and I know that the Northern Ireland Executive approach to adjusting the Executive’s block grant, alongside will want to do everything possible, in addition to this devolution of the power to set the rate of corporation power, to put in place the conditions for economic tax. I recognise the interest of right hon. and hon. growth. One should not pretend that this in isolation Members in the issue and have therefore set out further solves every problem. None the less it will be a very details in a letter to the Public Bill Committee. I would useful additional power for the Northern Ireland Executive, like to reassure Members that the UK Government and and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield the Northern Ireland Executive continue to work closely (David Rutley) said, there will be considerable interest to finalise the arrangements. elsewhere in how the policy develops and the benefits A minor and technical amendment was agreed in that accrue as a consequence. Committee to ensure that clause 5 was drafted in line To reduce the administrative burdens on SMEs, a with normal practice for commencement powers and to special regime will be put in place. A simple in/out test remove the scope for misinterpretation. It gives the will mean that the majority of companies will be spared Government the power to turn on the legislation by the burden and cost of proportioning profits. More regulations made by statutory instrument. than 97% of SMEs operating in Northern Ireland meet The Bill is vital in allowing the Northern Ireland the 75% employment test threshold and will benefit Executive greater power to rebalance the economy towards from the Northern Ireland regime. a stronger private sector, boosting employment, growth I would like to take this opportunity to thank KPMG and the standard of living in Northern Ireland, with Belfast, the Association of Chartered Certified Accountants benefits for the wider UK. The unique challenges faced and PricewaterhouseCoopers for their written submissions by Northern Ireland have been recognised by Members to the Public Bill Committee and the other businesses both sides of the House, and I welcome the efficient and that sent representations directly to HMRC, and I welcome effective debate we have had so far. I am grateful for the the continued support shown by the Northern Ireland Opposition’s commitment to co-operate with the business community and businesses elsewhere in the Government to ensure that the Bill can be scrutinised UK for this measure. In January, 80% of firms polled at appropriately and dealt with speedily in this Parliament, an Ernst & Young Ulster Hall seminar on the Bill and I hope that hon. Members will see fit to read it the believed that a cut in corporation tax would have a Third time. positive impact on their businesses. 1.58 pm As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland made clear on Second Reading, the Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab): Bill’s progress through Parliament is dependent on the I would like to associate myself with the Minister’s Executive parties delivering on their commitments in comments about the quality of our debate thus far on the Stormont House agreement, so I am pleased that the Bill. We have had a thorough discussion. It has been the Executive has so far met their obligations. They shorter than originally anticipated, but that is because 971 Corporation Tax (Northern 4 MARCH 2015 Corporation Tax (Northern 972 Ireland) Bill Ireland) Bill the Bill has wide-ranging support across the House, and Despite recognition of the importance of a wider policy it is a pleasure to rise, once again, to support the framework, we have not yet heard a huge amount of measures in it. detail about what it will look like on the ground in We are committed, as are Members across the House, Northern Ireland. These are matters largely for the to supporting measures to increase inward investment Northern Ireland Executive, but they need to know and into Northern Ireland and support the much-needed to hear that the Opposition support them in having a rebalancing of its economy. We have all recognised that wider framework of policy measures around skills and Northern Ireland has lagged behind the rest of the UK infrastructure that will help to make all this a success, on productivity and prosperity. Over the years, measures which we all want to see. have been implemented to boost the Northern Ireland economy, including through increased levels of investment Lady Hermon rose— and job creation programmes, but few have met with long-term success. It is important to consider a measure Mr Redwood: Will the hon. Lady give way? that would put a rocket-booster under the approaches taken so far to rebalancing and strengthening Northern Shabana Mahmood: I give way first to the hon. Lady. Ireland’s economy. In that spirit, we have supported the Bill. Lady Hermon: I am grateful. I am curious to know what reassurances a future Labour Government would As I noted in Committee, the Bill is both straightforward give, if they were in office after the general election of and complicated. It is short in respect of the number of 7 May—none of us has a crystal ball, so we do not clauses, but those clauses include a huge amount of know—to credit unions and the Progressive building detail, some of which has still to be worked out. The society, which we debated earlier? Minister alluded to that in his comments. It is important to recognise that we are at the start-point rather than Shabana Mahmood: I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s the end stage of the process. intervention, but I am afraid that I am going to disappoint Let me draw out a couple of issues that will be the her a little because my reading of the Bill, what it is subject of live discussions between the UK Government intended to achieve and of the agreement that has been and the Northern Ireland Executive. Before I do so, struck is very similar to that of the Minister. I agree however, let me reinforce a point made in the intervention with him that a deliberate part of the agreement relates by the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon)— to trading profits. Under the new Northern Ireland that it would be a mistake to think that corporation tax regime, corporation tax is to be devolved only in so far devolution will, in and of itself, do what is needed to as it relates to trading profits rather than other aspects rebalance Northern Ireland’s economy. It has to be part of business. That part of the policy is designed to make of a much wider picture that includes other policy it successful and ensure that this devolution results in a drivers to help make this measure a success. That is genuine rebalancing of Northern Ireland’s economy. certainly the experience of the Republic of Ireland, With respect, I feel that takes care of the point about whose extremely low corporation tax does not sit alone; the credit unions. it is supported by other policy measures, particularly on I have some sympathy with the argument when it skills and infrastructure. If this Bill is to be a success in comes to the Progressive building society. I have received Northern Ireland, it will be important for all parties communication from it about how it feels it will be work to together to ensure that the rest of the policy caught unfairly by these provisions. I felt that the framework is in place to allow the rebalancing that we amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark all want to happen. Durkan) did not take care of the scope for profit shifting within the financial services sector. We are all Ian Paisley: I welcome the shadow Minister’s comments, alive to that threat, but I am afraid that the amendment but does she accept that much of this is about perception did not deal satisfactorily with the problem that the and the business-friendly nature of our economy, which good work of the Progressive in Northern Ireland could will allow it to grow? It is about offering investors slip through and be accounted for, whereas everything incentives to come in by providing good profit returns else that could result in profit shifting would be excluded. for their hard-earned labour. If we continue to build up To that extent, my reading is similar to that of the and push that perception, does she agree that opportunities Minister, and that will certainly be our approach. I am will flow from it and that this Bill now offers the best happy to give an undertaking—dependent on the outcome way forward in the current economic climate? of the general election—to continue a debate with Members who feel strongly about this point, as did the Shabana Mahmood: The hon. Gentleman is right to Minister. say that the perception of business is really important, but he will recognise, I think, a point that businesses Lady Hermon rose— often make to Members of all parties—that headline rates of corporation tax are extremely important for Shabana Mahmood: I do not want to repeat a lengthy decisions about where to locate businesses, but that they debate on credit unions, but I will give way to the hon. are not the only factor that businesses take into account. Lady one final time. I recognise the importance of this Bill for Northern Ireland, given the unique situation in which Northern Lady Hermon: I am extremely grateful, but we need Ireland finds itself. As I say, it is putting a rocket-booster some clarity on this. There is potential for the Labour under the approach taken so far to try to rebalance the party to be in government after the general election of Northern Ireland economy, but it will not succeed on its 7 May, so I have to ask on behalf of all the people we on own—it has to be part of a wider policy framework. the Northern Ireland Benches represent whether the 973 Corporation Tax (Northern 4 MARCH 2015 Corporation Tax (Northern 974 Ireland) Bill Ireland) Bill [Lady Hermon] but much more work will need to be done on that, and an agreement will need to be struck with the Northern Labour party is ruling out any flexibility, as the hon. Ireland Executive. Lady seems to have done this afternoon. She has said that there will be no flexibility for credit unions, whereas Mr Redwood: Will the hon. Lady give way? I think the Minister said there could be at least some flexibility to look at back-office activities and excluded Shabana Mahmood: The right hon. Gentleman is trades. Is the hon. Lady ruling that out for the Labour persistent. I will give way to him very briefly. party? Mr Redwood: When will the Labour party give justice Shabana Mahmood: With respect to the hon. Lady, to England? Surely, given the devolution of tax matters the whole scope of the Northern Ireland regime under to Northern Ireland and Scotland—which we welcome— the Bill relates to trading profits. Credit unions do not there needs to be a voice for England, and an ability for pay corporation tax on their trading profits, so this Bill England to make her decisions on those matters as well. does not impact on them. I am not sure how many ways there are of saying that; I feel that the different formulations Shabana Mahmood: With respect, responding to the of the point have probably been covered. If the credit right hon. Gentleman’s intervention would lead me into unions did pay corporation tax on their trading profits, a much lengthier discussion on a matter that is not we would be having a different discussion. If Members directly relevant to the Bill. However, he has put his wish to see a devolution regime for Northern Ireland point on the record once again, and I am sure that he is that includes activities other than trading profits, so pleased about that. that corporation tax would be paid on investments, As I was saying, it is clear that the methodology for income and so forth, that is a big call to make. If calculating behavioural changes in particular will require provisions were to be applied but limited to credit detailed work between the United Kingdom Government unions alone, it would mean carving out an exception to and the Northern Ireland Executive. the regime. Let me say that that goes beyond the context The Minister said in Committee that there would be of the agreement struck between this Government and pressure on the Executive to take account of any profit the Northern Ireland Executive—the agreement that we shifting that might occur. Indeed, it is in their interest to have supported and the agreement that is the subject limit profit shifting in order not to increase the amount matter of the Bill. I would have a huge amount of that they must pay back to the Treasury. The Minister sympathy if credit unions found themselves caught said that a memorandum of understanding would be because they did pay corporation tax on their trading drawn up between the UK Government and the Northern profits, but that is not the case, so— Ireland Executive in respect of the costs of policing the limitation of profit shifting, and the processes, governance Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. and accountability that would be needed for assessment The amendment has been discussed and withdrawn. We of the activity.That is an important part of the framework, had a lengthy debate on it and we do not have a lot of but we have not been given many details so far. time for this part of the debate, so we must stick to what We all hope that the devolution will go ahead in 2017, exactly is in the Bill—and nothing more. but a potential stumbling block is the condition that Northern Ireland’s finances must be put on a stable Shabana Mahmood: I am grateful, Madam Deputy footing before that can happen. We have still not been Speaker, and I will move on to the rest of my remarks. told exactly what that will mean, and what threshold the Executive will have to cross in order to prove that Mr Redwood: Will the hon. Lady give way? they have met the condition. I hoped that the Minister might give some idea of the timetable agreed between the UK Government and the Executive in relation to Shabana Mahmood: Forgive me, but because of time when some of the key decisions will have to be made. I considerations, I will not. trust that they will be made well before 2017, although Let me raise a couple of issues that received lengthy the Minister said in Committee that that was the deadline, debate in Committee and will be important aspects of because there is a great deal to be done between now the work needed to take the Bill forward. I speak and then. I think that we shall all have to return the particularly of the block grant. I am grateful for the issue of conditionality after the general election. letter that the Minister sent to the Public Bill Committee, We are in favour of all measures that will assist the further setting out the Government’s approach to calculating people of Northern Ireland and their economy. It is in the element of the block grant that the Northern Ireland the interests of the whole United Kingdom for Northern Executive will have to pay back to the UK Government. Ireland’s economy to be rebalanced and strengthened. We are still a long way from a nail-down formula, as it We therefore support the Bill, and will continue to were, for how the block grant reduction will be calculated, support it. particularly in respect of measuring and calculating behavioural effects that will need to be taken into account. 2.13 pm I note the indication in one of the appendices to the Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): I letter that the devolution of corporation tax to the congratulate the Minister and the Secretary of State. Northern Ireland Executive in 2019-20 is expected to I also pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member cost about £325 million if Northern Ireland opts for a for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), who saw the 12.5% rate rather than the United Kingdom’s 20% rate, importance of a measure such as this even when we 975 Corporation Tax (Northern 4 MARCH 2015 Corporation Tax (Northern 976 Ireland) Bill Ireland) Bill were in opposition and he was shadow Secretary of I must also apologise for the absence of some of my State for Northern Ireland. That was not the conventional colleagues. As a number of Members will know, the thinking at the time, as I well remember because I was father of my hon. Friend the Member for Strangford working with him, but he persisted, and the Bill eventually (Jim Shannon) has died, and was buried this afternoon. found its way to the Chamber. That is why my hon. Friends the Members for East Nearly five years ago—the time has passed quickly— Antrim (Sammy Wilson) and for Upper Bann (David when the Select Committee was re-formed and I had the Simpson) are not present either, although they have a privilege of becoming its Chairman, it decided to look tremendous interest in this subject. On behalf of all into this matter. We decided that, in what was our first Members, I wish to express our sincere sympathy to my inquiry during the present Parliament, we would examine hon. Friend the Member for Strangford. We pray that the current financial and economic issues rather than the Lord will strengthen and comfort his family, especially what might have been seen as the usual “orange or his mother, at this time of their grief and sorrow. green” issues. We examined those issues in great detail, I know that some Members have felt rather envious and, although I would be the first to admit that the as they have sat back and watched the progress of the report that we eventually published was not unanimously Bill to its present stage. Nevertheless, both the Government agreed, we saw the importance of a measure such as and the official Opposition have acknowledged that the this. We also saw that it was not the silver bullet—it was circumstances of Northern Ireland are unique because not the only measure that needed to be taken in Northern of its land border with the Irish Republic, which has Ireland to rebalance its economy and make it more one of the world’s lowest corporation tax regimes. prosperous—but we did consider it to be very important. Government policy has directed us to rebalance the As has already been mentioned, Northern Ireland’s economy—to move away from our high dependence on geographical position makes it special in this context. It public sector employment and boost the local private shares a land border with another country, and it is also sector—but we cannot do that with no more than an part of an island which is, in turn, off another island. instruction from the House; we need the tools that will That geographical position alone means that in order to allow us to do the job. We have an earnest desire to attract the investment that it needs—especially overseas move Northern Ireland forward, and to transfer our investment—it must have a different quality, because people from the unemployment list to meaningful and otherwise people might prefer to invest on the mainland. gainful employment. Although that might be good for many of us, it would not necessarily help Northern Ireland directly. Similarly, Mr Redwood: I assure the hon. Gentleman that many if the UK were just like the rest of the European Union, of us have pressed for a measure of this kind for a long there would be no reason for people invest here rather time, and welcome it greatly. I like to see all parties than on the continent. I am pleased that many aspects united behind the simple proposition that tax cuts make of our economy and the way in which we run things are us a more prosperous society. I only hope that they different from what happens in the rest of the European learn the lesson in respect of the other parts of the Union, because that makes ours an attractive economy Union and the other taxes. and makes this country a very good place in which to invest, as is clear from figures that were published only Dr McCrea: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his recently. comments. I certainly believe that we need to be very A short time ago, when the Select Committee visited prudent in our expenditure, but we also need to allow Belfast, we had the pleasure of meeting Senator Gary people to have more of their own money in their pockets, Hart. He was there principally to engage in political and we want to see prosperity across the United Kingdom. discussions, but we discussed the economy as well, and I certainly want to see that achieved. After we have gone he made a great many encouraging noises about the to the 20% corporation tax there has, rather worryingly, prospect of American investment in Northern Ireland if been some talk of moving back to 21%. That would be this step were taken. a retrograde step and I trust it will be put to bed this afternoon because it would have implications for the I hope that the Northern Ireland Assembly will take block grant for Northern Ireland. We need to get that advantage of the Bill when it is passed, because it is one clarified. of the very few measures with which all the parties in Northern Ireland—and, I think, all the parties in the Businesses throughout my constituency tell me that House—agree. That is a very unusual situation in itself, corporation tax could be a game-changer, or at least but it is extremely welcome, because it gives us an assist in our genuine efforts for growth. Those who have opportunity to improve the economy in Northern Ireland in the past opposed the devolution of corporation tax to a greater extent than we have done so far. That is stated that this would assist only large multinational important for two reasons: it will ensure that people in companies, yet Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs Northern Ireland enjoy more prosperity, and it will give estimates that a reduction in corporation tax in Northern them the opportunity to cement the relative peace that Ireland would affect some 34,000 companies of all sizes, has been achieved there. A strong economy will obviously including 26,500 small and medium-sized enterprises. help the cementing of that peace. For those two reasons As the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) in particular, I am very happy to support the Bill. said, corporation tax is not a silver bullet that will transform the economy of Northern Ireland, but it 2.17 pm allows us to go out with confidence on to the world stage and sell Northern Ireland without being undercut Dr McCrea: Let me begin by thanking the Secretary by our neighbours in the Irish Republic. I accept other of State and the Minister of State for the Bill, and economic reforms are necessary. We need to train and thanking Opposition Members for supporting it. upskill our work force, and focus on skills and 977 Corporation Tax (Northern 4 MARCH 2015 Corporation Tax (Northern 978 Ireland) Bill Ireland) Bill [Dr McCrea] see a renewed focus from the Executive on investing in skills, and particularly the right skills for the companies competiveness, and strengthen our infrastructure, thereby that we are encouraging to come to Northern Ireland. achieving a stronger economy and a higher standard of We also face challenges in terms of infrastructure. As living for all our constituents. a civil engineer, it would be remiss of me not to mention I welcome today’s debate. I am disappointed in the that. It is not just our communications infrastructure, Minister’s response to the amendment tabled by the but also our physical infrastructure, which requires hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) and supported investment. Companies doing due diligence before investing by the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long). in a region will look at such issues. It is hugely important However, we are getting an opportunity to assist the that we are able to invest in infrastructure in a way that Northern Ireland Executive in gaining greater power to will both encourage and benefit companies locally who rebalance the economy and boost employment and are already involved in growing their businesses and growth by attracting more high-quality investment. attract new inward investment to Northern Ireland. Opportunity awaits us. To do nothing is unacceptable; Our connectivity will need to be defended. That is a to do our best is honourable. role that both Westminster and the Assembly can have some regard to. It is hugely important that our air 2.22 pm transport links, particularly those routes that allow us to cargo material from Northern Ireland for export Naomi Long: I do not wish to detain the House for markets, are protected. That should detain this House very long. I merely want to put on record my thanks to perhaps more than it has done to date. the Government for the work they have done in bringing this Bill forward, and also to the Opposition for their If we are to benefit the economy and feel the true support for the Bill. I welcome the progress in this benefit of this change in corporation tax, we also need matter, which we have debated many times in this to create the kind of political stability in Northern House, and we also talked about it for a long time when Ireland that is conducive to creating economic growth. I was in the Assembly. Those of us on the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs spent many Mr Nigel Dodds: On the economic issues and making hours discussing the issue of corporation tax and its the most of this devolved corporation tax power, does potential positive impact on Northern Ireland and its the hon. Lady agree that it is important that the Assembly economy, so I welcome the progress we have made in and the Executive determine the sort of rate that is what is a relatively short period of time from the going to apply as quickly as possible so that Invest NI announcement. It is good to see this measure reach its can get out into the marketplace and begin to sell Third Reading today. Northern Ireland and the benefits of this as soon as Others have already said this is not a silver bullet for possible? As she knows, there is a big lead-in time in the economic challenges that face Northern Ireland, terms of attracting investment? but it is a very important lever for the Northern Ireland Executive to have within their control to address the Naomi Long: I am aware of the pressure to want to imbalances in the economy, to encourage further growth do that quickly, but it is also important that, as the of our local companies and to encourage further inward Executive do that, the cost of it to the Northern Ireland investment. Even without corporation tax being reduced, economy is thoroughly assessed and we work out how Northern Ireland outperforms many other regions in we are going to pay for it in the interim. Otherwise, attracting inward investment. This gives us another before we reap the benefits, we could leave a gap in our opportunity to raise our profile internationally and public finances that could create pressure, particularly encourage more companies to look at Northern Ireland from those that are already under financial pressure. It as a serious investment prospect, but also to see us as a could lead to a push back against the corporation tax competitive region where they can locate and do real reduction. Getting that balance right is important. I business. agree that it would be wrong for people to be unnecessarily I look forward to seeing this Bill reach fruition. There tardy, but I also think it is important that proper due will be challenges ahead for the Northern Ireland Executive diligence is done around what that level should be. as they go about the more complex work of setting a Reaping the maximum benefit from the changes under rate for corporation tax, particularly in terms of affordability this Bill requires political stability. It requires people, at a time when resources are extremely tight. It will be when they look to Northern Ireland, to see the positive difficult because there will be a gap between any benefits images that are so often broadcast, as opposed to some from the change and the amount they will lose to the of the more negative images we have seen in recent Treasury in the interim. The Executive will have to look years. If we want lasting prosperity, it has to be shared at that period very carefully in terms of affordability among everyone in our society. It is therefore hugely and how that is managed. important that we see political maturing not just in There is also a challenge in dealing with investment in terms of the Unionist-nationalist question and how skills, which are required if we are to see the full benefits that is handled politically in Northern Ireland, but in of any reduction in corporation tax. There is no point terms of the productivity of the Assembly. in reducing corporation tax to get new businesses to come in and invest if we do not have the skilled workers Ms Ritchie: Does the hon. Lady agree that along with to be able to take up employment in those companies. having corporation tax as a financial lever, and the need Part of the due diligence that any company will do to create political and economic stability in Northern before investment will involve looking at our skills base. Ireland and the need to encourage people to come and That will be one of the key issues. We therefore have to visit, there is also a need for the Treasury to look at 979 Corporation Tax (Northern 4 MARCH 2015 Corporation Tax (Northern 980 Ireland) Bill Ireland) Bill reducing VAT on tourism? That would enable us to be That is what we should really be debating, and I hope more competitive with the south of Ireland in terms of that one day Government Members will follow our lead visitors and the economy. and reduce their corporation tax to the new levels that Northern Ireland has ambitions to achieve. Naomi Long: I am aware that the hon. Lady has long The Government’s plan to reduce tax is welcome. since advocated such a move, as have I. Unfortunately, When we look at the history of the economy of the the Treasury response has been that in some way reducing Republic of Ireland, we see that it was not corporation the VAT on leisure would encourage people to have a tax reductions alone that supported the country’s boom rather lackadaisical attitude to the workplace. In fact years. There were other unique selling points that it is both inward and outward tourism generates a significant important to consider. The Republic sold the fact that it amount of money into our economy, so I think a future had a great, well-educated and advantaged youth population assessment would be valid. who made the country cheaper, as an offshore part of Today marks a very welcome step forward in the Europe, to invest in. Northern Ireland competes on potential for Northern Ireland to rebalance its economy exactly the same footing as that, and I believe that we and encourage further growth of the public sector. I can do it even better. After all, we are British. We are an hope that when the Executive meet, as they will do over offshore part of Britain: we are Britain offshore. If we the coming months, they will meet the challenge of can use that to our advantage as a unique selling point, setting the rate and stepping up around infrastructure we should do so, and I welcome those who will join us. and skills, as well as around stability and peace building. As other Members have said, this change will affect We will then be able to reap the maximum reward for 34,000-plus local companies, 26,500 of which—the small the work that has been done. and medium-sized enterprises—form the backbone of our economy. I know that many of them welcome this measure, and I look forward to the opportunities that 2.29 pm the legislation will create. Ian Paisley: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for I welcome the fact that those on the Front Benches the opportunity to speak in this important debate on have changed their minds on this matter. For a long corporation tax. Today is a red-letter day for Northern time, certain Members were like John the Baptist, in Ireland. The Bill certainly gives the lie to those who that they were preaching in the wilderness. Eventually, suggest that nothing ever changes in politics or that however, they have managed to convert; I think that devolution does not actually do anything. It sends out those on both Front Benches recognised that they needed the powerful signal that, after much diligent hard work, to do so. That is a good thing. There has been a lot of the constant dripping has eventually worn away the thought on this issue on both sides of the House and I stone and we have achieved something positive for welcome the change of heart, particularly on the Labour Northern Ireland: we have ensured that we can at last Front Bench. I remember the former Prime Minister set our own rate of corporation tax. telling us in 2007 that he could not do this. He gave us This is what devolution is supposed to be about. It is the Varney review and told us that we could tamper supposed to allow the economies that make up the with this, that and the other. Indeed, the then Treasury United Kingdom to compete according to their strengths, spokesman, the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy to set their own pace of change and to be agile. Many of Burnham), said at the time that corporation tax reduction us have argued for this change for a long time, and we at for Northern Ireland last see the legislation in print. We now see it moving “does not offer the best way forward”.—[Official Report, 17 December forward on a very positive footing. So those who oppose 2007; Vol. 469, c. 74WS.] devolution and say that nothing really changes can eat I am glad that we have recognition today that it is the their words today, and I hope they choke on the Bill— best way forward, and I hope that we will have unanimity on the matter in the House. Lady Hermon: So to speak. As I have said, this is not going to be a one-night wonder; it will not change things overnight. It will Ian Paisley: Indeed. probably take at least a decade before we reap the Some Members have suggested that the devolution of benefit of the change, but anyone who knows that corporation tax is not a silver bullet, but I do not think I Northern Ireland’s economy also has a strong agricultural ever heard anyone say that it was going to be a once-in- sector will appreciate what I am about to say. Before we a-lifetime, miracle-working, stand-alone solution. No can reap the benefit of the changes, we have to sow, and one ever thought of it like that. It is one of the arrows in today we have very good seed that I believe we are going the quiver, to be fired at the right target at the right time. to be putting into very good ground. I look forward to The important thing about the corporation tax measure seeing the game-changing strategy that is being put in is that it will change people’s perceptions about our place today reaping a wonderful economic harvest for economy. We have a go-forward, low-tax incentivised Northern Ireland over the next 15 to 20 years. I believe economy.Indeed, that seems to be part of the Government’s that anything the Republic of Ireland has been able to own economic plan. They have tried to reduce taxes offer as a result of its corporation tax reduction, Northern time and again, and I welcome that. I agree with the Ireland will be able to do on steroids. We will do it right hon. Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood), better. After all, we are part of a G20 nation, and the who has often contributed to debates in the House by benefits of that stability should be recognisable to all. demanding that we have even lower taxes across the In 2011, the Select Committee, under the watchful whole of the United Kingdom. Would it not be a far eye of the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), better day today if the Bill were introducing a reduction indicated that this measure was going to be a game-changer. in corporation tax for the whole of the United Kingdom? The Select Committee is to be congratulated on pursuing 981 Corporation Tax (Northern 4 MARCH 2015 Corporation Tax (Northern 982 Ireland) Bill Ireland) Bill [Ian Paisley] Lady Hermon: The hon. Gentleman will have noted that the Minister made the valid point earlier that the this matter and encouraging the Government to look devolution of corporation tax to the Northern Ireland afresh at it. At that point, it had been dropped from the Executive was contingent on the implementation of the agenda and people thought that it was all over, and the Stormont House talks. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman, Chairman of the Committee should be singled out who is speaking loudly for the Democratic Unionist today and congratulated on pushing the matter forward. party, would like to confirm that his party is absolutely Over the past five years, the Northern Ireland Executive wedded to the full implementation of all the commitments have demonstrated their ability to look at other good and recommendations that resulted from those talks. competitive economic measures that we should be embracing. Ian Paisley: This is not the place to debate all of the Stormont House agreement, but given that we were Mr Dodds: Would my hon. Friend acknowledge that, instrumental in helping to achieve it, we will, of course, in addition to some people here giving up on devolving be pursuing every line, every jot and every tittle to the power to set corporation tax rates, there were parties ensure that we get the best deal for Northern Ireland in and politicians in the Northern Ireland Assembly who all of that arrangement. had also given up on it? Our party did not give up on it, Between 2013 and 2014 we had a record year of however, and we are glad to be seeing the fruits of our investment in Northern Ireland. Nearly 11,000 new jobs labour today. were promoted and 23 first-time investors were welcomed into Northern Ireland. If we can do that in one year in Ian Paisley: I have to say that I am shocked. My right advance of the corporation tax Bill, what can we not do hon. Friend wants me to start electioneering in the if we can now go out around the world and start to House. He wants me to say that it was us that won it. market Northern Ireland as the place with what I hope Well, it was! We know that and the electorate know it; will be the lowest level of corporation tax on these we will prove that on 7 May. islands? If we can do that, we really will have the opportunity to see Northern Ireland attracting even Mr Dodds: Look at the record. more companies. Our attracting 23 new, high-calibre investors in the past year, in the hard economic climate Ian Paisley: I know that the record is a powerful one. we have been coming out of, is a signal that things they We did not give up on this; we pushed for it. I think the are a-changing. hon. Member for Tewkesbury will confirm that it was our party that pushed the Select Committee to press the Ms Ritchie: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that as issue and to hold not just a desktop inquiry but a solid part of lowering the level of corporation tax in Northern investigation. That investigation took us overseas, to Ireland there is a need not only to rebalance the economy, the Republic of Ireland and to the United States. We but to ensure that a balanced regional development looked at the issue, we pushed it solidly, and today we approach is taken to the location of foreign direct are reaping the benefits of that. Some of the foot-draggers investment and other investment, to ensure that all did not want to see this day, but I am glad that those of citizens benefit from this lowering of corporation tax? us who were swift of foot have now reached the finish line. Ian Paisley: The hon. Lady makes a good point—it is Northern Ireland offers a unique brand for people to key. This tax is not just about investment in Belfast, invest in. Obviously, we have a land border with the Londonderry or key cities; it is about investment in the Republic of Ireland, so we have to demonstrate additional whole of Northern Ireland. The Prime Minister recently economic stimuli to get our economy going. The Bill stated that he wanted to make the United Kingdom the will allow us to do that. A recent Ernst and Young “factory of Europe” and attract more jobs into the UK, survey on global cities of the future found that Belfast and I hope he was speaking for every part of the UK. I was one of the most business-friendly medium-sized hope he wanted to see those investments coming across cities in the world to invest in. That shows that what not just to London and the south, but to all of the UK, Northern Ireland is offering, to foreign indirect investment because that is what we really need—we need more in particular, is an agile and capable economy with investment. I know that the hon. Lady wants to see workers who want to see their economy change and investment in her constituency.My constituency is carrying grow. what is going to be the single largest job loss in Northern We export the best buses; they come from my Ireland in several years, with the closure of the JTI constituency to this city. Northern Ireland also exports Gallaher factory in 2017. I want to see those jobs filled. the best pavements. I think that they come from the I want to see opportunity created whereby more investment constituency of the hon. Member for South Down will be happening in my constituency and more factories (Ms Ritchie), and they are used to pave London. We will be brought there. If the current Government are also export some of the best drink to ply the workers returned, I hope that they will add meat to the bones of with, from Bushmills, and all our existing exports represent that call to turn the UK into the factory of Europe by a continuing opportunity to grow the Northern Ireland bringing jobs, not only to the hon. Lady’s constituency, economy. Northern Ireland is a good place to invest in. but to mine and, indeed, to all our constituencies. I Indeed, 75% of investors reinvest after having been in hope we see a balance in the investment that is going to Northern Ireland. Not only do they go there to make be made. their initial investment but the lion’s share of them go In an earlier intervention, the hon. Lady also called back and reinvest because they see it as the place where for a reduction in VAT, especially on our tourism trade, their pounds can grow. and I fully support that. Tourism is one of the key areas 983 Corporation Tax (Northern 4 MARCH 2015 Corporation Tax (Northern 984 Ireland) Bill Ireland) Bill where we are trying to grow our economy and attract hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) is in his new business investment, with new hoteliers and new place, too—so I am conscious of the fact that cautionary companies. If we can reduce VAT in that sector, we will pieces of advice need to come from that office about see it grow. Again, we compete with the Republic of what some of the consequences might be. When I was in Ireland in that sector, but it has a lower tax rate and that that post, I used to tell people that as the Minister of damages us. We really need to try to make progress on Finance and Personnel I did not suffer from depression that. but I was a carrier. So I can accept that Ministers of Finance and Personnel perhaps did need to sound some Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. cautionary note, but this seemed to go beyond those I know that the hon. Gentleman will be very careful in Ministers; I am glad that we now have a much stronger sticking to the narrow confines of the Third Reading of position on the devolution of corporation tax. this Bill. I appreciate that the points he is making are We also need to be clear that the devolution of tangentially attached to the Bill, but I am sure that, in corporation tax does not put the north—does not put concluding, he will be referring entirely to the Bill. the Assembly—on a par with the corporation tax powers the Oireachtas has. Although it allows the Assembly to Ian Paisley: Thank you for that prompt, Madam set the rates for certain qualifying businesses, it does not Deputy Speaker. I was actually at the point of conclusion, allow it to decide who the qualifying businesses are, and and I thank you for reminding me that I do have to the Assembly has no control over any of the other rules conclude. I know that hon. Members are captivated by that attach to that. The Oireachtas has a very different my oratory today and want me to continue, but I must arrangement. Even when moves are made in the Oireachtas desist and so I shall leave those points with the House. on the “double Irish” situation, which are long overdue and right, we also see a targeted use of things. A bit like 2.44 pm this Government’s use of the patent box, the Irish Government have introduced the knowledge box. So Mark Durkan: I will probably differ in some emphasis there are other ways in which they are going to target and some recollection from the hon. Member for North competitiveness, and incentivise particular industries Antrim (Ian Paisley), but I wish to begin on a point of and sectors. absolute harmony, in offering thanks to the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) and all the members of That is one issue I wish to address at this point in the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, who tilled this examining the overall impact of the Bill, because too hard ground over quite some time, some years ago. The often the focus in Northern Ireland has been that devolving hon. Member for Tewkesbury has rightly been generous corporation tax would allow us better to compete with in acknowledging the role played by his colleague, the the south. We need to recognise that the competition right hon. Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), landscape within these islands has changed. I acknowledge and I will do so, too. that a regional economic dynamic has been provided under this Government, through initiatives such as The devolving of corporation tax to Northern Ireland enterprise zones, city deals and growth deals, which are has not always been the point of constant unanimity creating some drive, regional economic traction and that it appears to be today. People did have different city economic traction. If Northern Ireland relies just approaches and different concerns about it; back when on corporation tax and does not look to some of those we were negotiating the Belfast agreement or Good other tools that are helping to drive regional and local Friday agreement some of us wanted fiscal discretion as economic growth, we will lose out. part of the devolved package, whereas most parties did not. My party was in the very small minority of those I represent a city where many people go to work that did, and we were particularly clear about the across the border for companies that are benefiting corporation tax side of things. When we did get our from the 12.5% corporation tax rate. That proximity—this institutions up and running, some of us argued the need is in our travel-to-work area—does not mitigate the fact for devolving corporation tax so that we could do more that my constituency has the highest registered to maximise the north-south potential for inward investment unemployment of all the 650 constituencies represented on the island of Ireland, but many people resisted that in this House, which shows that a reduced corporation idea of working with the south on inward investment. tax rate alone is not a magic bullet and does not solve For that same reason, those people were very iffy about everything. As has been said, including by the hon. the idea of devolving corporation tax, as they felt that Member for North Antrim, the south of Ireland’s approach somehow it was going to separate Northern Ireland is not just about corporation tax alone; it is about from the Union and be a chink in Unionism. I am very investment in infrastructure and in education, not least glad that, because of a variety of different experiences, in third-level education. Even this week, as we see that positions have adjusted and moved on in that regard. the Irish Government’s revenues are up and things are Reference has been made to the Varney review. When shifting there, and they are looking at and talking about Sir David Varney was conducting the review of corporation possibly adjusting the spending and tax profile, the tax issues under the previous Government, he made it Tanaiste, Joan Burton, is emphasising that if money clear that he was hearing different views from different can now be spent, it has to be focused on infrastructure parties in Northern Ireland and, in particular, from and on education, particularly at the third level. different Departments and from different Ministers. In We see that emphasis in the south, but not in the fairness to the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy north. We need to recognise that, with regard to the Wilson), he acknowledged that at times he had different Stormont House agreement and the wider landscape, views and different emphases on this issue, as it is all that glisters is not gold. The fact is that the Assembly understandable that a Minister of Finance and Personnel and the Executive will have a difficult Budget landscape would have. I served in that office—I see that the right over a number of years and there will be a price on the 985 Corporation Tax (Northern 4 MARCH 2015 Corporation Tax (Northern 986 Ireland) Bill Ireland) Bill [Mark Durkan] Bill Committee, I specifically asked the Minister that question. Let us take the example of water charges. We block grant. That was touched on by the hon. Member know that the Executive have consistently tried to prevail for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) when on the Administration in Northern Ireland to move to she referred to the letter from the Treasury to the Bill direct water charges in one form or another. When I was Committee—unfortunately, it arrived after the Bill a Minister, the then Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Committee had completed its considerations. The letter, Paul Boateng, wrote to us at the Executive twice, asking while reflecting the fact that negotiations with the Executive that we make that commitment. The Executive, on my are ongoing, sets out a number of changes that will proposal, refused to do that. Various other ruses have need to be made to the funding arrangements of Northern been attempted. During the period of direct rule, Northern Ireland. I am talking about how the block grant will be Ireland Water was essentially set up on a conveyor belt set and how the Barnett formula will operate. More to privatisation. The question is whether the Treasury time needs to be taken to consider those wider would abuse that power and say, “Just like we used to consequentials and the implications for the devolved say that you had a sustainable Budget only when you Budget. had absorbed what we wanted you to do on welfare In the Stormont House negotiations, I did question reform, we are saying now that you only have a sustainable why we were not discussing the implications of a Budget when we see you levying water charges, raising corporation tax rate cut or what the implications would revenue in other areas or changing your policy in relation be for the block grant. I was told by the First Minister to student finances.” It could be linked again to welfare that the rate cut was not an issue, that it would be reform. After all, we are now locked into a welfare cap. modest and graduated and that it did not really need to Luckily, we are being given a lot of leeway in how the come into our wider discussions about the strong budgetary welfare cap operates at the minute. If the truth be told, pressures we were under. But that does not seem to be the deal that was reached on welfare reform as part of the case. His understanding and his reassurances were the Stormont House agreement— not reflected in the terms outlined by the Treasury Minister in the Bill Committee or in this letter and its Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. attachments. There was an assumption that there would I will say to the hon. Gentleman the same as I said to be a gradual working adjustment. In other words, there the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley), who would not be a full hit in relation to the devolved spoke immediately before him: I have not been very envelope. But the Minister both in Committee and in strict in keeping him to the exact words of the Bill, but, the letter, made it clear that the hit would be up front. as he knows very well, he is beginning to stray a little. I I joined the hon. Member for East Antrim—I understand trust that, in concluding, he will address precisely the that his absence is to do with the unfortunate bereavement points in the Bill that relate to Third Reading. experienced by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon)—in questioning the arrangements. We asked about the working implications of the Executive’s Budget Mark Durkan: I am sticking very much to the thrust year on year and of the setting of the block grant. We and the purpose of the Bill. The Bill is presented as part wanted to know whether adjustments would have to be of a suite of measures coming from the Stormont made to reflect higher or lower tax takes. In the letter House agreement. That suite of measures included issues from the Minister, which was sent on 16 February, we in relation to welfare reform. After all, we were told that see that those adjustments may be made two or three there would be no Corporation Tax Bill unless there years later, whenever the full tax yield is made. That was agreement on welfare reform, so what I am saying is creates uncertainty. Given that corporation tax is, as the entirely consistent. Ministers have referred to these Institute for Fiscal Studies has pointed out, sometimes other measures when they have addressed this Bill, as volatile, there could be further implications that we have other hon. Members. The point goes to something should acknowledge. We should not say that we do not that is in the Bill, which is the control that the Treasury understand them or that they were someone else’s fault. will have over the commencement of this power and We need to go into these things with our eyes open. whether it uses that to impose other policy choices on the Assembly. Given that the welfare cap will be in place Let me turn now to the wider position of the Executive in the next Parliament—if it is supported both by the in relation to the operation of corporation tax. Under Government and the Opposition—it could well be a the Bill, the Treasury retains not just ownership of all part of the working reference of the Treasury when it the rule-making and interpretive powers, but the comes to make a judgment on Budget sustainability. In commencement power in relation to corporation tax. fairness, the Minister made the point in Committee that We know that the timetable is 2017, but, as we heard the judgment would be made on the sum of the Executive’s from the Minister in Committee, the Government will Budget parts and on a range of issues, but not on exercise that commencement power when they are satisfied specific measures. He would not rule out it being used in that the Executive has a sustainable Budget. that way. Again, in terms of due legislative diligence, all Over the past couple of years, the Treasury has made of us must have regard to how this might operate in it very clear that it judged the sustainability of the practice. I am talking about not just some of the detailed Executive’s Budget on whether the Assembly would rules as they affect businesses but how the overall pass welfare reform legislation. That legislation may Budgetary situation of the Executive is affected. There not have been to the Assembly’s taste or of a devolved is no point in our popping corks about the legislative design, but they would have to pass it as a way of power over corporation tax that the Executive and the proving that they had a sustainable Budget. In 2017, the Assembly will have if we are not also alert to the very issue will be whether the Treasury will use that same real budget constraints and the hard choices that might power to impose policy choices on the Executive. In the be imposed with that. 987 Corporation Tax (Northern 4 MARCH 2015 Corporation Tax (Northern 988 Ireland) Bill Ireland) Bill Naomi Long: The hon. Gentleman has said on a I do not wish to use the term long-term economic number of occasions that, as a result of the Stormont plan, but without addressing some of the other issues, House agreement, one obligation was to sign up to including providing tools that compare with city deals, welfare reform. Does he not agree that, more correctly, growth deals, enterprise zones and so on, and without a what was agreed was that we had to come up with a new level of commitment on third level education and package on welfare reform that we could pay for? As it infrastructure, the Executive might well be getting the happens, that package was parity with a little bit of novelty of devolved corporation tax without strategic flexibility— economic perspectives that are other than short term in nature. Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. Interventions are meant to be short. The hon. Lady has already spoken. Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): I thank It is perfectly in order for her to make an intervention, the hon. Gentleman for his courtesy and for not arguing but it must be short, especially as she has, quite rightly, with me. taken up the House’s time this afternoon. I politely Question put and agreed to. indicated to the hon. Gentleman who has the Floor that Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed. he might consider drawing his remarks to a close. He chose to argue with me on the points I had made. I will Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab): On a point of speak less politely to him if he does not adhere to what I order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I should be grateful if have said. He has spoken for a considerable time this confirmed how this House could express our condolences afternoon. He is in order. He has the opportunity to to the family of Konstandinos Erik Scurfield, a constituent conclude his speech. I am not saying that he must finish of mine who has been reported killed in Syria. Erik was immediately now, but I am sure that he will give thought a former Royal Marine who travelled to the region to other people in the Chamber. because he was horrified by Islamic State’s brutal atrocities. His parents have asked me to pass on this brief message: Mark Durkan: I have no wish to argue with you now, “We are devastated to confirm the death of our son in Syria Madam Deputy Speaker, but I must say that I was not where he went to support the forces opposing Islamic State. His arguing with you previously. I was simply clarifying the flame might have burned briefly, but it burned brightly, with love, position and the background, as you have not had the courage, conviction and honour, and we are very proud of him. privilege of sitting through all the debates on what was We would like to request that we be allowed to grieve in peace as a family, without intrusion at this difficult time.” deemed relevant to the Bill and the wider Stormont House agreement. Three weeks ago, I raised this matter with the Foreign Office but I have not received a response. Given the The Executive and the Assembly will have to absorb serious nature of this issue I ask for more guidance on the Bill’s wider implications. There are implications for how I can best secure a response from Ministers so that the economy and for businesses, too. We have heard together we can underline the grave dangers that face from many hon. Members that businesses are well seized anyone who travels to Iraq or Syria. of the need to try to take advantage of that. We have no problem with the regime on the balance between the Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): I thank rates and the rules, but we want to ensure that there is the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. Let me first no undue assumption that the devolution of corporation say on behalf of the whole House that we send to his tax to Northern Ireland alone will transform our economy. constituent’s family our most sincere sympathy at the We need more investment in infrastructure and higher loss of this brave young man. The hon. Gentleman education and following the decisions in the Stormont knows that his point of order is not a point for me to House agreement it is not clear whether our borrowing deal with from the Chair. I am sure that those on the power, which was originally designed for strategic capital, Treasury Bench will have heard what he said, and if he is now being used to pay for a voluntary exit scheme. has not had a timely reply to a question he asked of a There is an opportunity cost as regards the wider economic Minister, he ought to have. I trust that that message will investments. have gone out loud and clear to the relevant Minister. 989 4 MARCH 2015 Future Government Spending 990

tax receipts have been £68 billion lower than expected Opposition Day and national insurance contributions have been £27 billion lower than expected. That impact on the state and [UN-ALLOTTED HALF DAY] health of the public finances has been a direct result of the stagnant wages and suppressed living standards in Future Government Spending our society.

3.4 pm Several hon. Members rose— Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): I beg to Chris Leslie: I hope that the hon. Member for Aldershot move, (Sir Gerald Howarth) can explain why the deficit has That this House rejects this Government’s failing austerity continued at such a level and whether he agrees that the plan set out in the Chancellor’s Autumn Statement which the Office for Budget Responsibility has said will take public spending fall in living standards has had that effect on our public back to a share of national income not seen since the late 1930s, finances. before the National Health Service came into existence; notes that the Institute for Fiscal Studies has said that this would entail cuts Sir Gerald Howarth: I am grateful to the shadow on a colossal scale and has raised concerns that this could involve Chief Secretary for giving way. I will tell him why we are a fundamental reimagining of the role of the state; further notes that the Chairman of the Office for Budget Responsibility has in this situation today: the destruction of the public said that these spending figures were based on the policy assumption finances by his right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy presented by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and signed off by and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), the former Chancellor the quad, which consists of the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime of the Exchequer and the former Prime Minister. When Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Chief Secretary will the shadow Chief Secretary apologise to the British to the Treasury; and calls on the Government to instead adopt a people on behalf of the Labour party for having put different, fairer and more balanced approach, which involves them through this misery, which we have now amended? sensible reductions in public spending, a reversal of this Government’s We are restoring the strength of the British economy £3 billion-a-year top rate of income tax cut for people earning over £150,000 and an economic plan that delivers the sustained and we have the fastest-growing economy in the G7. rises in living standards needed to boost tax revenues, in order to That is no thanks to the shadow Chief Secretary but is get the current budget into surplus and national debt as a share of thanks to this Government. Apologise. GDP falling as soon as possible in the next Parliament. I associate myself with the remarks made by my hon. Chris Leslie: I expected better than that from a knight Friend the Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) in of the realm. I thought that such partisanship would be his point of order. He made the point eloquently and I beneath the hon. Gentleman, but no. I did not quite pass on our condolences from the Opposition Front hear him mention those words “global banking crisis” Bench. and perhaps I might remind him of the cause of the The choice between this Government’s failing austerity difficulties our economy has faced. He did not answer plan and a better plan for working families at this my question about the state of our public finances election is now clear. The majority of people are not today. He seems to feel content that the Chancellor of feeling the benefit of the recovery and the squeeze on the Exchequer, who promised that the deficit would all living standards has not been so prolonged since the have been eradicated by now, has not done exactly the 1920s. When we cut through the Chancellor of the job he set out to do in 2010. The hon. Gentleman also Exchequer’s rosy view and spin and look at the report did not explain why things have not turned out as the produced today by the Institute for Fiscal Studies, we Chancellor promised. can see that it confirms that the vast majority of people, typical working people, are worse off than they were in Mr Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con) rose— 2010. Chris Leslie: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con): Will the hon. because I know that he will try his hardest to explain Gentleman give way? why things have not turned out as the Chancellor promised. Chris Leslie: I shall give way in a moment. What has been less well known is the devastatingly corrosive Mr Newmark: I would be delighted to explain it to effect of stagnant wages, falling tax receipts and rising the hon. Gentleman. It is about something called the welfare costs on the health of our public finances. The structural deficit and the Opposition must acknowledge social security bill is £25 billion more than planned at that the problem we face was created not just by the the outset of the Parliament. Tax credit costs have risen banking crisis but by the massive overspending of the to subsidise the low-wage economy. Incidentally, my previous Government. That is called the structural deficit. hon. Friends know from looking at the statistics last week that, in just one year, the number of zero-hours Chris Leslie: Now we are coming to some of the contracts in our society has grown by 20%. issues. The hon. Gentleman feels that the Chancellor did not make an error when he promised back in 2010 Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Will the hon. Gentleman that by now we would have no deficit and that it would give way? all have been eradicated. The esteemed Chancellor of the Exchequer promised in his autumn statement that Chris Leslie: I shall give way in a moment. The “we will meet our fiscal mandate to eliminate the structural number of working people receiving housing benefit current budget deficit one year early, in 2014-15.”—[Official has gone up by two thirds since the last general election, Report, 29 November 2010; Vol. 519, c. 532.] 991 Future Government Spending4 MARCH 2015 Future Government Spending 992

That is the year we are in now. This is about the had a devastating effect not just on this country’s public Government’s record for the past four and a half to five finances, but across the world. Conspicuous by its absence years. from the hon. Gentleman’s comments was any evidence that he had said in the past that public expenditure Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Will my hon. Friend plans were all wrong. The Chancellor of the Exchequer give way? and the Prime Minister signed up to support all the previous Government’s proposals. Chris Leslie: I will give way to my hon. Friend, whose constituents have been very much affected by the squeeze Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): Does my in living standards. He knows that it is the health of the hon. Friend agree that Government Members should be economy and of the finances of working people across reminded of chart 1.1 of the OBR report, which shows the country that determine the health of our public that total managed expenditure rose from 36% to 40% finances. of GDP between 1998 and 2008, and then from 40% to 46% by 2009? In other words, the biggest part came Chris Bryant: Will my hon. Friend explain to the hon. from the banking crisis. Member for Braintree (Mr Newmark) and everyone else who seems to have forgotten that, in 2008, the Chris Leslie: If we had a Government who understood massed ranks of Conservative party supported Labour’s that a connection exists between living standards, the public spending plans, so they cannot now pretend that health of our economy and the health of our public they were not in this as well? finances, perhaps we could make some progress on deficit reduction and tackle some of those issues. Instead, Chris Leslie: It is amazing how quiet Conservative recent figures show that the gap between what the Members are on that particular point. Government spend and their income is perpetuating at a very high level. I think it came down from £80 billion Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): Will in the first nine months of last year to £74 billion in the the hon. Gentleman give way? first nine months of this year. The deficit reduction strategy is a thing of the past for this Government, Chris Leslie: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman in because they do not realise how stagnant wages have a moment, because a particular part of my speech is pulled the rug from underneath it. dedicated to him. On the “Today”programme this morning, the Chancellor Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): Of of the Exchequer—for it was he—uttered the phrase: course, the inconvenient truth for the Conservative party “We’ve got on top of our debts and deficits.” is that it cannot whitewash history. [Interruption.] A BBC news online article on Monday 3 September 2007, Those were the words—[Interruption.] If Government under the headline, “Tories ‘to match Labour spending’”, Members really believe that they have been reducing the said: national debt and that the deficit has been eradicated, they are either delusional or not feeling particularly “A Conservative government would match Labour’s projected public spending totals for the next three years, shadow chancellor well. George Osborne has said.”

Mr Raab: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way; Chris Leslie: The reason Conservative Members are he is being very kind. He has blamed the biggest peacetime getting so irritated is that they do not like being reminded budget deficit, which we inherited from the previous that it was a global banking crisis. They like to airbrush Government, on the global economic crisis. Will he that entirely from the record. That has been their strategy confirm that the Office for Budget Responsibility’s public throughout, but we will not let them forget that there finances database clearly shows that public spending was a banking crisis across the globe. We needed to take rose by £267 billion between 1997 and 2009-10, and that greater action to regulate it, but I did not hear Conservative 71% of that rise took place by 2006-07—well before the Members calling for stronger regulation of financial financial crisis? Will he confirm that that is true? services; the truth was quite the opposite. Chris Leslie: I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman If we had a rational debate, we would see the connection was making those points before the last general election. between living standards, growth and the health of the If he can point to evidence that he was warning, “No, public finances. those spending plans are entirely wrong and we shouldn’t be spending on schools and hospitals in that way,” I will Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab) rose— give way to him again. Did he warn us about those problems at the time? Chris Leslie: I will give way in a moment. I am afraid that Conservative Members are not driven Mr Raab: I thank the shadow Minister for giving way by rationality when it comes to a strategy for dealing again, but I think the way interventions work is that we with the public finances. They are driven by dogma. on this side ask the questions. My question is simple: [Interruption.] Oh, yes. They are on an ideological was the OBR right or wrong about 71% of the deficit crusade to shrink public services as a percentage of coming from spending before the recession? national income. Their plan, when they stand up to talk about these things, is not about eliminating the deficit at Chris Leslie: The hon. Gentleman is misrepresenting all; it is beyond that. The guiding principle of the the OBR’s views. It is clear, as the Institute for Fiscal Conservative party is a desire for public services actively Studies has said today, that the global banking crisis to decline year after year after year. 993 Future Government Spending4 MARCH 2015 Future Government Spending 994

[Chris Leslie] Chris Leslie: Well, we are all in favour of it now and I am delighted that there is consensus. In fact, I am That is why so many Conservative Members have tempted to invite the hon. Gentleman to this side of the joined that fabled Conservative group, the Free Enterprise Chamber, but we have a rigorous application process Group of Conservative MPs. The hon. Member for and he would need to go through a number of other Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng) is not in the Chamber, stages first. but he has famously called for massive reductions in The Conservatives’ strategy is failing and there are public spending. The Economic Secretary, who will good reasons for that. They do not realise the important wind up the debate, is also a member of the Free role that active Government can play in supporting our Enterprise Group, as is her colleague the Exchequer economy and improving living standards. Government Secretary and the hon. Members for Macclesfield (David and public investment can make a real difference, whether Rutley), for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier), for Esher and by guaranteeing apprenticeships, tackling unfair energy Walton (Mr Raab) and for Dover (Charlie Elphicke). I bills, raising the minimum wage, banning exploitative am sure there are others, although perhaps of a lower zero hours contracts or action on housing and infrastructure ranking order within the Free Enterprise Group structure. to boost productivity. All these would represent a better [Interruption.] Well, I am not a member of the Free plan but the Conservatives’ 1930s strategy, coupled with Enterprise Group of Conservative MPs and, with members that trickle-down philosophy, is totally discredited. Lavishing like that, I am quite glad I am not. tax cuts on the very wealthiest 1% is not just the wrong That organisation reveals the true face of the priority; it is also the wrong strategy. Conservative agenda. It believes very much in shrinking the state and it is driven by that fundamental belief. It is Several hon. Members rose— highly dogmatic and has used the financial crisis as a pretext for reducing the level of public investment. Chris Leslie: I am conscious that there are many hon. Members who want to get in so I will limit the number Charlie Elphicke: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? of interventions hereafter, but how could I resist giving way to the hon. Member for South Derbyshire (Heather Chris Leslie: The hon. Gentleman is a member of the Wheeler)? Free Enterprise Group. Does he stand by its manifesto? Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): The hon. Charlie Elphicke: Let us talk about Labour’s spending Gentleman is very kind. He speaks about tax cuts being commitments. The shadow Minister has been going up only for the top 1%. Will he congratulate Conservative- and down the country making £20 billion-worth of controlled South Derbyshire district council, which is unfunded spending commitments. Would they be paid not only holding the council tax for the fifth year for by more borrowing or more taxes? running, but is going to give a rebate in July to every council tax payer in the whole of South Derbyshire? Chris Leslie: That was a good try, but the hon. They will all get a council tax rebate. Gentleman knows very well that we do not have unfunded spending commitments. Our manifesto will be fully Chris Leslie: Local government matters are for individual costed and fully funded. He does not need to take my authorities. I know that there are a number of authorities word for it: we would be more than happy to let the that are struggling financially and finding things very OBR audit all of the proposals in our manifesto and to difficult, not least because the funding formula has been undertake to validate that they are, indeed, fully costed. so heavily rigged and skewed by the Secretary of State I wonder if any Government Members would like to for Communities and Local Government. I do not support the idea that all the political parties should know the individual case of the hon. Lady’s district have their manifestos fully costed by the OBR. Can I council. Individual local authorities will have to make see a show of hands? their own decisions. Her constituents, like others, have to look at the situation in the round. The Government Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con) rose— are very good at giving a little bit with one hand, and taking back so much more with the other. Her constituents know about the rise in VAT that she voted for and those Chris Leslie: There is one individual: the hon. Gentleman cuts to tax credits, among other things. is an independent champion on Treasury matters. I wonder if he would like to at least say that there is a strong case for letting the OBR cut through this political Several hon. Members rose— nonsense and make sure that we have proper independent validation of spending commitments. Does he agree Chris Leslie: I will give way one more time, then I with that? must make progress.

Mark Garnier: I do—absolutely. In the early part of Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): I thank my hon. this Parliament the Treasury Committee looked at exactly Friend for giving way. He is being far too generous to that point and there was a big and heated debate about Government Members, who do not deserve it. In my it. Conservative members were in favour of it, but council area, £328 is being stolen from every man, Labour members were not, and they were led by the woman and child and 1,700 good quality public servants shadow Business Secretary, the hon. Member for Streatham are being put on the dole, just to prove that the (Mr Umunna), who was dead against it. What does the Government’s long-term economic plan is working. It is shadow Minister have to say about that? not a plan; it is a sham. 995 Future Government Spending4 MARCH 2015 Future Government Spending 996

Chris Leslie: We need to tackle the blatant unfairness The OBR goes on to say—Government Members may of the rigged funding formula for local government not have heard this—that finance, which the Labour party has committed to do in “total public spending is now projected to fall to 35.2 per cent of government. GDP in 2019-20, taking it below the previous post-war lows reached in 1957-58 and 1999-00 to what would probably be its Helen Jones: Will my hon. Friend remind Government lowest level in 80 years.” Members that when the Government introduced their That recalls a time before we had an NHS, when children Local Government Finance Act 2012, they deliberately left school at 14, and when life expectancy was just 60. set up a system that penalised the poorest councils more That is why Paul Johnson of the Institute for Fiscal than the richest councils, they took no notice of the Studies said on 4 December that we can expect amount of council tax that could be raised from different “Spending cuts on a colossal scale…taking total government boroughs, and in doing so they destroyed the social spending to its lowest level as a proportion of national income services system, which is now leading to people remaining since before the last war.” in hospital when they should be out—a prime example of a stupid cut which costs more in the end? [Interruption.] Several hon. Members rose—

Chris Leslie: Government Members are trying to Chris Leslie: I seem to have hit a nerve with Government shout down my hon. Friend because they do not like to Members. I give way to the good-looking one. hear the truth. The truth is that many of our public services are affected by the support and the funding Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): That is one formula given to local government. She is right to of the few points on which I agree with the hon. highlight the impact— Gentleman. He has been quoting selectively from various institutions. He has just quoted the IFS. The director Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): general of the IFS has said that Will the hon. Gentleman give way? “if the Conservatives win the election they will neither, despite what the opposition would have us believe, destroy the NHS nor return the welfare state...to1930s level of provision.” Chris Leslie: No. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that, and will he now My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North withdraw his previous comment? (Helen Jones) is right to highlight the impact on our national health service of some of the devastating changes Chris Leslie: With the greatest respect, I do not that have hit social care. She made her point well. accept that. I will come to that shortly. It is bad enough that the Chancellor and the Prime When we look at the effect on public finances of the Minister fight so hard against the idea that an inclusive plan that the hon. Gentleman has signed up to with the approach leads to a stronger economy and a better Free Enterprise group and with the Prime Minister and plan. [Interruption.] What is worse is that the Prime the Chancellor, the effect on our public services, not Minister, the Chancellor and Government Members least the NHS, could be exceptionally difficult and fully intend to accelerate the failing plan for a further potentially implausible. five years—[Interruption.] Paul Johnson of the IFS asks: Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): “How will these cut be implemented? What will local government, Order. Conservative Members have had their fun in the defence force, the transport system, look like in this world? Is this a fundamental reimagining of the role of the state? ... If we shouting across the Chamber. The debate should settle move in anything like this direction, whilst continuing to protect down now, with interventions when they are taken, but health and pensions, the role and shape of the state will have a proper debate. Mr Smith, if you have a question, it is changed beyond recognition.” normal to stand up on an intervention, not just speak Is it any wonder that UKIP has backed Conservative by Christian name across the Chamber. Thank you. plans? No surprise there. Be under no illusions—the Conservatives’ pathway Chris Leslie: I appreciate that, Madam Deputy Speaker. for the next Parliament is a statement of intent to wage war on public services, and people need to understand Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con): Will the the tremendous risks involved. It is a major threat to the hon. Gentleman give way? viability of public services, which would wreak havoc especially in non-ring-fenced areas such as policing, Chris Leslie: I may give way to the hon. Gentleman in border controls, child protection and social care. Such a moment, but not just yet. extreme plans would decimate skills, infrastructure, research I want to pause for a moment and reflect on the and development and science, undermining the implications of taking UK public expenditure on vital competitiveness of our economy. Devastation on that public services down to the 35% level that was announced scale would not be tolerable, which is why we suspect in the autumn statement. These plans would mean that that the Conservatives have secret plans to hit household we are only halfway through the cuts. These are plans finances in other ways. for the biggest cuts to public services since the second world war. The Office for Budget Responsibility says on Several hon. Members rose— page 148 of its report that “the closest equivalent in the National Accounts implies that by Chris Leslie: I want to make sure that other Members 2019-20 day-to-day spending on public services would be at its have a chance to contribute to the debate, so I will give lowest level … since the late-1930s as a share of GDP.” way one final time. 997 Future Government Spending4 MARCH 2015 Future Government Spending 998

Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): The difficulty not by its judgment. Given the catastrophic situation in that Government Members have is the question of which Labour left the country after 13 years in charge, motive. When people across the country see Sure Start Members might have thought that it would have the centres, police stations and NHS walk-in centres closing, good grace to accept that our economic plan is putting underinvestment in schools and queues outside our A Britain back on track, delivering growth, jobs and and Es, they know what a Tory Government have done prosperity for hard-working households up and down already, and they know what will happen if we go back the country. to their 1930s plan. Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): It is right Chris Leslie: The whole country will be affected, that we focus on spending totals, but there is an even including Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, if the better argument. A careful academic study of National Conservatives are given a further five years for their Audit Office and Public Accounts Committee reports ideological plan. The plan has not just failed to date; it over Labour’s time in government recently found that a will continue to fail and will continue to harm those on staggering £230 billion was wasted on incompetence, lower and middle incomes and those who depend on inefficiency and undelivered programmes. That is a real public services. The Conservatives will not set out where legacy of 13 years of wasted Labour government. their billions of social security cuts will hit, for example, so we have to take past performance as a guide. Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Indeed, as a distinguished Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, Several hon. Members rose— he was heavily involved in identifying that wasteful spending. One of this Government’s achievements is the Chris Leslie: I will not give way again, because I want measures we have introduced to reduce such wasteful to make some progress. spending. In particular, the efforts of the Minister for Tax credits, for example, have already been hit hard the Cabinet Office in pushing forward reform and in this Parliament. The typical household is £1,127 worse identifying efficiency savings have reduced the cost of off this year as a result of the tax and benefit changes Whitehall strikingly. introduced since 2010. Those who depend on tax credits to make ends meet need to be aware of what five more Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): years of Conservative Government would mean. Is not it disingenuous—some might even say slightly dishonest—to pray in aid references to 35.2% of public There is a better, sensible and balanced alternative, a expenditure, as opposed to GDP, as ideological extremism sensible fiscal framework aimed at getting the current when we need look back only 12 years to the Blair-Brown budget into surplus and national debt falling as soon as Government to find a time when the percentage was possible in the next Parliament. We must make progress 35.9%, which is almost indistinguishable? Is not that and cut the deficit every year. Where we make promises trying to hoodwink and fool the voters, and is not that in our manifesto, supported by the hon. Member for pretty dishonest? Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier), they will be fully funded—we want them to be audited independently by the OBR—and they will not involve additional borrowing. We need Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend makes an important workable efficiencies and spending reductions in non- point. The statistics he uses are absolutely right. With protected areas. We have already published seven of our regard to public spending on services—I will turn to the interim zero-based review reports listing examples of detail in a moment—we are talking about returning to where those could be made. We need fairer choices on the levels of 2002-03, before the previous Government taxation, not a £3 billion give-away to the richest 1% earning lost control of public spending. over £150,000 a year. Fundamentally, we need rising living standards and sustained growth to repair tax Charlie Elphicke: The tenor of the Opposition’s argument receipts and control welfare spending, which has got is that public spending ought to be higher. Given that totally out of control under this Government. they are disagreeing with our plans, should they not specify how much higher they would want it to be? This Government’s failing plan has not eradicated the deficit, but it has left us with an NHS in crisis, the Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I was bedroom tax and 20 million meals served in food banks struck that when it came to the substance of the shadow last year. Their sharp turn towards a right-wing ideological Chief Secretary’s speech, he rather rushed through that approach would cull public investment to levels not process. He tells us that he does not like our spending seen since the late 1930s. For our public services, for plans—I will come to the details of that in a few policing, for social care, for defence and for the NHS, at moments—but he does not tell us how much extra he this election the stakes have never been higher. I urge would spend, or, if he is going to spend extra, how he is the House to reject the Conservatives’ risky and extreme going to pay for it. Will it be through higher taxes or approach and instead back Labour’s fairer and better through more borrowing? We did not get any indication. plan for the future. Chris Leslie rose— 3.31 pm The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Mr Gauke: If we are going to get an answer to that Gauke): Well, here is another opportunity to tell the question, I will be delighted to give way. House about the successes of our long-term economic plan. I must say that I am impressed by the Labour Chris Leslie: If the Minister wants to clear all these party’s courage in selecting the economic recovery for things up and make sure that we have an independent the last Opposition day debate of this Parliament, but appraisal, does he back the hon. Member for Wyre 999 Future Government Spending4 MARCH 2015 Future Government Spending 1000

Forest (Mark Garnier) in supporting the idea that the Mr Gauke: I have to say that looking around this Office for Budget Responsibility should be allowed to Chamber I do not feel terribly isolated. report on the proposals of all the parties? What is so wrong with that? Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): I am glad that my hon. Friend has brought this back to jobs and what that Mr Gauke: I am afraid that that is a bit of a red means for our constituents. In Crawley, we now see herring. If the shadow Chief Secretary wants to set out record employment levels. That is not an accident; it is a what his plans are, and if he believes that spending direct result of the long-term economic plan. needs to be higher than it would be under a Conservative Government, he can tell us how much higher—he does Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We not need the OBR to look at his numbers. Does he have seen remarkable progress in creating jobs. As I say, believe that spending should be financed through more that is providing greater security for millions of people borrowing or more tax? What is it to be—a tax bombshell, up and down the country. a borrowing bombshell, or both? I will happily give way to him. He does not want to answer. Chris Bryant: May I ask the Minister about cuts to the Arts Council budget? So far, this Govt have cut it by Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op) rose— 30%, but on 5 January, the Tory party produced a report saying that £83 million more would be cut from Mr Gauke: Perhaps there will be an answer from the Arts Council, and that this hon. Gentleman. “cost is based on the real terms decrease in the Grant in Aid for the Arts Council from 2014/15 to 2015/16”. Mark Hendrick: The Minister will recall that prior to Does he stand by the figure that the Arts Council will be the 2010 general election, the then Conservative Opposition cut by £83 million this year? promised to get rid of the deficit by the end of this Parliament. We have already seen that the Government Mr Gauke: I recall the debate on arts spending at the are planning to borrow £200 billion more than was beginning of the year. If I remember correctly, the note originally estimated, which is clearly way off track. If that was published showing the Labour party’s areas of they could not get their promises right before the last spending commitments included a commitment on the election, why should we believe them, in government, arts, but the shadow Chancellor very quickly ruled it about what they will do after the next election? out. He said it was not correct, and the deputy Leader of the Labour party had to withdraw what she had Mr Gauke: So there we have it—that is the complaint previously said on that subject. That is my memory from the Opposition. Their big problem is that we have of it. not cleared up their mess fast enough. That is the essence of their argument. They have opposed every Chris Bryant rose— difficult decision we took on the path towards recovery— every spending cut and every welfare change. As for the deficit, they usually forgot to mention it. All the rhetoric Mr Gauke: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman one we are hearing from them is about how they would last time. reverse the decisions that we have taken and presumably turn the clock back to 2010—the time when we had the Chris Bryant: This is a serious matter, and if the worst deficit in peacetime history, when we were borrowing Minister cannot give a precise answer this answer, I £1 for every £4 spent, when we had an economy whose would be very grateful if he wrote to me. Does he think ability to pay its way was questioned internationally, that the Arts Council budget will or will not be cut from and when the outlook of the Labour Government this year to next year by £83 million? could be summed up by the note left by the then Chief Secretary to the Treasury, the right hon. Member for Mr Gauke: If we have any future announcements Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne): about the Arts Council budget, we will make them in “I’m afraid there is no money.” the usual way. This Government have made great steps forward to As we have seen only today from the report of the get us out of that mess. In 2014, our growth rate was Institute for Fiscal Studies, average household incomes 2.6%—the highest of any major advanced economy. are back to the levels they were at before the recession Our deficit is down by half as a percentage of GDP. began and they are expected to grow by well above Thanks to the stability that we have put in place, businesses inflation this year, while income inequality is down and have created 2.16 million private sector jobs since the pensioner poverty is at record lows under this Government: first quarter of 2010, each and every one representing our plan is working. someone in the UK who is now standing on their own The Labour party claims that we are taking public two feet. Some 2.1 million more entrepreneurships have spending back to the level of the 1930s, but let us look been set up, with over 750,000 more businesses than in at the facts. Even on the assumption that 100% of our 2010. That has all happened under this Government. future consolidation comes from cuts to departmental expenditure, which is not the Conservative party’s approach, Helen Goodman: Can the Minister explain why the the Government’s plans will, as my hon. Friend the real Chief Secretary is not responding to this debate? Is Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) has pointed it because when the OBR finally audited the Government’s out, put spending on public services at their lowest future plans and found that they would take us back to real-terms level since 2002-03, so instead of the late the 1930s, the other coalition partner peeled off and left 1930s, we are talking about the early 2000s—only 65 years the Tories isolated? out. 1001 Future Government Spending4 MARCH 2015 Future Government Spending 1002

Andrew Bridgen: Throughout the debate, the Opposition Mr Gauke: The position is that getting to a cyclical have attacked our long-term economic plan, which is balance by 2017-18 requires £30 billion of fiscal delivering the highest economic growth of any developed consolidation. economy, and has created more jobs in this country than in the whole of Europe added together. Will the Chris Leslie: Where is it? Minister remind the House whose economic policies the Labour party was exalting? I seem to remember something Mr Gauke: That position is supported by the IFS. about “What Hollande is doing in France I want to do The figure is £30 billion. Where is it coming from? The in Britain.” Labour party simply does not have an answer. If it is not prepared to accept the £30 billion figure, it will be Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend makes a very important borrowing more. If it does accept the £30 billion figure, point, to which I will return in a moment. where is it coming from? If it is not coming from Although we have made considerable progress, the spending, it must be coming from tax. reality is that we face further difficult decisions. On that basis, the House signed up to a charter for budget Mr Raab: Does the Minister recognise the figure responsibility last month. It enshrines in law that the given by Paul Johnson of the IFS in The Times on Government elected in May, whatever their colour, must 13 January, when he said that Labour’s plans amounted have a plan to tackle the deficit and to bring our to £170 billion more on the national debt by 2020, national debt under control. Pretty well all of us, with which is about a third higher than the entire NHS one or two exceptions, committed to achieving falling budget? That is what we are talking about. national debt as a share of GDP by 2016-17, and to balance the cyclically adjusted current budget by the Mr Gauke: If the Labour party will not meet our end of the third year of the rolling forecast period, spending plans and is going to borrow more—it is which is 2017-18. giving itself more wriggle room, even though it has On the latest forecasts, the charter requires about signed up to the charter, which commits it to £30 billion £30 billion of consolidation in the first two years of the of fiscal consolidation—where is the money coming next Parliament. Under the plans set out by the Chancellor, from? it will be achieved by bearing down on spending, the welfare budget, and tax avoidance and evasion. To Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): Small break the figure down, that is at least £13 billion of businesses across north Yorkshire are really worried savings from Departments’ spending, at least £12 billion about the fact that Labour has not yet ruled out a jobs from welfare and more than £5 billion from tax avoidance tax, should it be elected. Are they missing something? and evasion. The Labour party agreed to the charter: the motion Mr Gauke: That is the key to the matter. The truth is was passed by 515 votes to 18. Perhaps it believes that a that there will be either a tax bombshell or a borrowing fiscal consolidation of £30 billion is too much. After all, bombshell if the Labour party is in office. It fought the that is the position of the Greens and the nationalist last general election campaigning for an increase in the parties, who have explicitly said that they would borrow jobs tax. I have a strong suspicion that a future Labour more over the next three years. That position is irresponsible, Government will look at precisely that to fill the gap. but I accept that it is coherent with everything else that those parties are saying. Labour, however, has voted to Simon Kirby: Perhaps I can help Labour Members. accept that a fiscal consolidation of £30 billion is necessary, Has not the shadow Chancellor outlined £3.3 billion of so where is it coming from? cuts to local councils up and down the country? Today there is total chaos, contradiction and confusion. Where Chris Leslie rose— is their policy? What is their plan?

Mr Gauke: In a moment. If the Labour party does Mr Gauke: As per usual, there is no plan; it is just not believe in making savings from departmental budgets chaos. We cannot get a consistent position from the or welfare, where is the money coming from? To quote Labour party. First it says that it will not borrow more, its leader, then it says that it will borrow more. There is simply no “if we just try and cut our way to getting rid of this deficit, it consistency. won’t work.” That is the Labour party’s position. Out come the old Mr Anderson: In the unlikely event that the Minister answers, but where is the money coming from? is in charge after 7 May, is he as confident that he will reach the target in 2017 as he was in 2010 that he would Chris Leslie: The Minister must have the charter for get rid of the deficit in four years, at which he completely budget responsibility with him. I will give him a moment and utterly failed? if he wants to pick it out of his file. Where does it say in the charter for budget responsibility—perhaps he could Mr Gauke: We stand by the OBR’s projections. We give us a page or line reference—that the figure is have made considerable progress at a time when other £30 billion? Can he quote the OBR on that figure economies have struggled and when there has been a either? Is it not the case that the charter for budget eurozone crisis. But for the steps that we have taken, our responsibility was about agreeing to focus on current debts would have risen much more quickly. budget plans, and not about the absolute budget surplus Let us return to the position of the Labour party. that his party was apparently committed to? What on Where are its answers on deficit reduction? We get the earth was going on? old answers, which are that it would squeeze the rich 1003 Future Government Spending4 MARCH 2015 Future Government Spending 1004 and reintroduce the 50p top rate of tax. It conveniently Therefore anyone earning more than £26,000 will have forgets that the previous Government had a top rate of a tax rise under the next Labour Government. That 40p for all but 36 of their 4,758 days in office. is what the deputy leader of the Labour party has The House will want to be aware that our move to the committed to. 45p rate cost only around £100 million—a small price to pay for making the international message loud and Mr Gauke: As I said, the money has to come from clear that we are open for business. How much does somewhere, and middle-income earners are probably Labour think that reversing that policy would raise? I pretty high up the list. To be fair, it is not just the am happy to give way to the shadow Minister on that. 50p rate, although that is the only policy mentioned in To say that a return to the 50p rate would bring in an the motion. In television interviews, the shadow Chief extra £3 billion a year, which is what he implied, is Secretary to the Treasury has proclaimed one other frankly ludicrous, and I challenge him to identify one policy to reduce the deficit. This is the key to deficit reputable economist between now and 7 May who will reduction and the policy that will restore public finances support such a position. to health: a future Labour Government will put up fees for gun licences. How much will that raise? A whopping Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) £17 million—except, to be fair, the shadow Home Secretary (SNP): The Minister has probably forgotten that when has already pledged to spend that money elsewhere. it came to the millionaires’ tax cut, the Labour party abstained and did not vote against it. More importantly, Chris Leslie rose— the National Institute of Economic and Social Research said that if it were not for austerity, UK GDP would be Mr MacNeil: Give him both barrels! 5% higher. The tax take with 5% more GDP is about £32 billion, or equivalent to 30% of the current deficit. Does the Minister accept that austerity has been a Mr Gauke: I will give way to the man who believes mistake and that we should have gone for growth through that the answer to our public finances is to raise fees for investment? gun licences.

Mr Gauke: I am not persuaded by the argument that Chris Leslie: My hon. Friend urged me to give the if we borrow more we ultimately borrow less—I am Minister both barrels, but I will try to resist. It is all very afraid that is far too easy an answer. good banter trying to claim that that is the only way we The Government believe that those with the broadest would deal with the deficit, but of course that is absolute shoulders should bear the biggest burden, and as the nonsense—when asked for examples, we give examples. Institute for Fiscal Studies confirmed today, that is The Minister raises an important point about gun licences. exactly what is happening. That is why the richest in our It is a small amount of money but it is still worth doing. society now pay more in tax than at any point under the Is he saying that we should not raise gun licence fees? Is previous Government. The Labour party can lecture us he ruling that out because he thinks it is the wrong idea? all it likes about taxing the rich, but it was not on our watch that private equity managers paid a lower rate of Mr Gauke: It was an attempt to show how ridiculous tax than their cleaners. It was not on our watch that the the Labour party’s economic policy is when the only wealthy could sidestep stamp duty, or that higher earners example it puts forward, apart from the 50p rate, which could disguise their remuneration as loans that were is likely to cost money, is increasing gun licences. I did never repaid. Under our watch, however, every single not really expect the shadow Chief Secretary to take it Budget that we introduced raised revenues from the seriously that that was the big policy. Does he disagree most well off in society. that the shadow Home Secretary has already claimed that that money will be spent on policing? It is going to Mr Raab: Will the Minister confirm that, although be spent on policing, is it not? There was a time in the motion talks about reversing our changes to income debating these matters when the big argument from tax, the latest HMRC data show that someone who Labour Members, their big macro-economic analysis, earns £10,000 to £15,000 a year will pay 54% less was that we were going too far, too fast. Now it has income tax than they did under Labour, while someone come down to this. What have they got a few days away who earns £1 million to £2 million pays 14% more? from a general election? They have a policy on gun licences—that is it. What has the great Labour party Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend raises an interesting come to? Gun licences! point, and the big tax cut that this Government have delivered has been the huge increase in the personal Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): Perhaps allowance that has benefited millions of hard-working the Minister can help me out. The Labour party had a people up and down the country. top tax rate of 40% for 155 of its 156 weeks in office, which apparently was the epitome of social justice. Why Stephen Hammond: The Minister is right to point out does he think Labour is attacking us for having a 45% those things, and, as my hon. Friend the Member for rate, which brings in more money but is suddenly seen Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) pointed out, we have as feathering the nest for the rich? taken many people out of tax altogether. On Labour’s watch, if it were ever to be in government, the deputy Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The leader of the Labour party has already said: problem with the 50p policy is that it is not an effective “Yes I think people on middle incomes should contribute more way to raise revenue. Our record is very clear: we have through their taxes”. been very effective at getting more money out of the 1005 Future Government Spending4 MARCH 2015 Future Government Spending 1006

[Mr Gauke] Mr Gauke: To be fair, we have gone this far in the debate and they have not once yet made a claim for it, wealthy. As we see from the IFS analysis today, the but it is still early days. wealthiest have made the biggest contribution. What we are left with is a symbolic gesture, not a tax policy. Several hon. Members rose— Mark Garnier: Does my hon. Friend not agree that it is quite remarkable that the Labour party has not yet Mr Gauke: I will give someone the opportunity to come out categorically and refused to raise taxes through make a claim for it. a jobs tax? Is it not worth remembering while we are debating a possible jobs tax—or not, depending on Mr Bain: I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman what they want to do—that there has never been a for giving way at last. Labour Government who have not failed to increase The “Charter for Budget Responsibility” states that unemployment? the Treasury will balance the current budget “by the end of the third year of the rolling, 5-year forecast Mr Gauke: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is period.” right that we highlight that point. They do not like our spending plans, but what are they going to do? Are they Can the Minister point out the reference to 2017-18? If willing to borrow more? Are they willing to tax more? It he cannot, his figure of £30 billion of cuts is entirely must be one or the other or both. Which is it to be: a bogus? borrowing bombshell or a tax bombshell? Mr Gauke: It is by looking where we are and then Helen Goodman rose— adding three years. It is really not that difficult. In the motion, the Opposition attempt to evade the Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab) rose— hard choice between more tax or more borrowing facing those who oppose spending cuts by saying they will Mr Gauke: I will give way to the hon. Lady. She will grow the economy faster so that wages go up and the give us an answer. problem is solved, despite this being a structural issue. Every Government want the economy to grow faster. Helen Goodman: I want to bring the Minister back to When François Hollande came to power, with a new the point he was making about five minutes ago, when economic model praised by the Leader of the Opposition, he said that there should be £12 billion of cuts to the I have no doubt that he wanted the French economy to welfare budget. Would he like to spell out for the House grow faster, but it did not, and I have no doubt that in and the nation what those £12 billion of cuts will be? 2008 the Labour Government also wanted the economy to grow faster, but that did not prevent it from shrinking Mr Gauke: We will set out the full details in due by 6%. Wanting an economy to grow is not the same as course, but we have already said that £3 billion of that achieving economic growth, and nor is it an excuse for will come from freezing benefits. If the Labour party is not making the hard decisions necessary to reduce the ruling out touching the welfare budget, which is a deficit. considerable part of public spending, where else is the money coming from? Where is Labour’s plan for growth? If we examine the motion, do we find a single policy that would help economic growth? One specific policy is mentioned, Several hon. Members rose— about punishing high earners, but that is hardly a policy for growth. After five years, where are these policies for Mr Gauke: Let me give way to my hon. Friend. growth? They could mention increasing the number of apprenticeships, reforming banking regulation and David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): One of the reasons increasing infrastructure investment, except that those the Opposition are focusing on the gun licence is that are policies delivered by this Government. Or they they have got it wrong on just about everything else. could set out how they would encourage business investment Will my hon. Friend remind us who said it was not by putting in place competitive business taxes and reducing possible to cut spending and create jobs? regulatory burdens, except those are policies they intend to reverse. Or they could mention improving education Mr Gauke: I think the Leader of the Opposition standards or securing the future of universities, except might be the person in my hon. Friend’s mind. I think that they would abandon the progress we have made, he was making predictions of 1 million more unemployed not least with their shambolic policy on tuition fees. as a consequence of our policy. Labour’s policies have three characteristics: they are Several hon. Members rose— not long term, they are not economic, and they do not constitute a plan. The motion reveals a vacuous Opposition Andrew Bridgen: I thank my hon. Friend for giving horribly ill-prepared for government. The motion, like way. He is right to try to pin down the Opposition on the Opposition, has little to say on macro-economic how they will fund their spending commitments, but it policy and nothing to say on supply-side policy. It is is a forlorn hope. It is like trying to bottle fog. He evasive on the deficit and incoherent on economic growth. should remember their cornucopia of endless money, The motion, like the Opposition, is destined for a heavy the bankers’ bonus tax. They have used it 12 times defeat. already. Surely they will be using it again before the election? Several hon. Members rose— 1007 Future Government Spending4 MARCH 2015 Future Government Spending 1008

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): to find work. During that long-term five years, they Order. There is a seven-minute time limit on all Back-Bench have certainly suffered real economic pain. Such economic contributions, starting with the next speaker. pain might well not be appreciated by the Government Members who have chosen to turn up this afternoon, but it is real and long-term economic pain to my 4.2 pm constituents. If Government Members were to pay some Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ attention to the entirety of their constituencies, they Co-op): For some reason, my mind is drawn increasingly would find that it is exactly the same for them. to the time people are in particular positions, and I note I believe that the Government have failed their own this afternoon a conspicuous absence on the Liberal test on the economy because they have failed the test set Democrat Benches. I think back to the early part of this for them by people’s expectations. Over the last five Parliament, when the right hon. Member for Yeovil years, they have failed to create an economy that works (Mr Laws) held the post of Chief Secretary to the for the majority of people. Working people are, on Treasury for a total of 17 days, and I recall being in the average, £1,600 a year worse off than they were at the Chamber when, with barely disguised glee and in a start of the Parliament. Wages are stagnant for many remarkable contribution that has continued in the approach people, and I know that all too many of my constituents of the coalition, he began the process of cutting back who have been able to get back into work are in low-paid, on investments, some of which have since been insecure work. They are regularly on contracts that re-announced. This was at a time when the economy make them wait for a text message at the start of the was beginning to grow after a long global banking crisis week to be told how many hours’ work they are going to out of which we are only just starting to emerge. Since get for that week. [Interruption.] then, for the past five years, for the vast majority of I note the hon. Member for Macclesfield (David constituents in all parts of the UK, things have been Rutley) shaking his head in disdain, so I invite him to getting worse, not better. The coalition justified it on come to my constituency to meet people in my surgeries the basis of shoddy analysis of how our economy and each week who are suffering as a result of what has been situation was the same as that in Greece. allowed to happen and because of the failure of his party to take action to tackle these types of exploitative Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): I contracts. If he thinks that that is a fair basis for our notice that there are no Scottish nats in the Chamber at economic growth, I suggest that he is not speaking even present, which is not unusual. Will my hon. Friend for his own constituents, let alone the majority of people touch on the effect of the price of North sea oil on the in this country. economy of today? David Rutley: The hon. Gentleman argues with passion; Tom Greatrex: My hon. Friend makes a different I argue with similar passion. If he looks at the statistics, point from the one I was making, but an important one. he will find that it is clear that the vast majority—more The reduction in the price of a barrel of oil has had a than 70%—of the jobs created are for full-time, permanent significant impact on revenues. If Scotland had become work. That benefits his constituents as well as mine. It is a separate country or was in the process of becoming a working. separate country, the impact on revenues would have amounted to the equivalent of the entire Education Tom Greatrex: Many people in my constituency who budget. That much would have been wiped out in the were out of work and are now in work are employed on course of the last few months, highlighting the dangers zero-hours contracts—as I said, contracts that make of an economy being over-reliant on what the record them wait for a text message at the start of the week to shows to be such a volatile commodity, and indeed, by find out whether they will get any hours that week. definition, a declining one, given the amount of oil still They have variable levels of hours from week to week. It left in the ground. This is an important point for does not involve simply doing a top-up job or an Scotland. additional job. In many cases, this provides these people’s The tenure in office of the Chief Secretary to the main source of income, and these contracts have increased Treasury has been slightly longer, and 1,591 days ago, over the last five years. That is the reality, and the hon. the Prime Minister said: Gentleman should be ashamed that his Government have failed to tackle it. It is a disgrace that this is where “In five years’ time, we will have balanced the books.” we are in the 21st century—and that is exactly where we He has 63 days left in his job, and I suspect that he is not are at present. going to meet that promise. Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): Andrew Bridgen: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Will my hon. Friend give way?

Tom Greatrex: No, I am going to make some progress, Tom Greatrex: I will, but for the last time. and I have a relatively short time. Sandra Osborne: My hon. Friend will be aware of the The Office for Budget Responsibility has said that thousands of people using food banks in our constituencies borrowing for 2015-16 is set to be £75 billion and that up and down the country—and many of the people the Government are borrowing over £200 billion more using them are in work. than they planned in 2010—hardly an exemplar of a functioning economic policy. Tom Greatrex: Indeed. My hon. Friend makes a very The last five years, then, have indeed seemed long important point—that many of the people accessing term—and they felt long term to many of my constituents, and using food banks are the same people who are who have suffered from declining incomes and struggling increasingly reliant on in-work benefits. They are not 1009 Future Government Spending4 MARCH 2015 Future Government Spending 1010

[Tom Greatrex] Sir Edward Leigh: I am not sure that it is wise for us to go on all the time about the fact that we have cut the out of work or seeking to be in work, but the hourly deficit in half. We have cut it in half, but that disguises wages they receive are not enough to heat their homes the real crisis that we are still experiencing. We are still or put food on the table for their families. That is a borrowing £90 billion a year, which means that we notable feature of the economy at present. cannot relax for a moment. It is madness to make unfunded borrowing and spending commitments. Andrew Bridgen: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Mr Newmark: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Tom Greatrex: No, I will not. I have already given That is why we had an emergency Budget which laid out way three times, and I am running out of time. clearly our long-term economic plan. As a result of low and stagnant pay, tax receipts are Let us consider our record in government since we more than £68 billion lower, and receipts from national picked up the pieces that were left by the last Government. insurance contributions are £27.3 billion lower, than As my hon. Friend has just said, we have halved the they were expected to be five years ago. Chronic low pay deficit. That is important, because it has kept interest only drives up the costs of welfare, and the welfare bill rates low for mortgage-holders and for business. Income is £25 billion higher than it was planned to be in 2010. tax has been cut for 25 million people, by about £705 per The problems have been exacerbated over the last five person. The personal allowance has been raised from years, not solved, and that has skewed the economy £6,500 to £10,600, and some 3.4 million people have towards the interests of the few rather than the many. been taken out of tax altogether. Benefits have been We need a fundamental change of approach: we need capped to reward hard-working people. Employment is an economy that is focused on ensuring that people can up, and youth unemployment is down. The Million earn decent wages and survive. That would enable us to Jobs campaign, which I put together, managed to persuade increase the tax take, and to reduce the benefits bill. The the Chancellor to abolish national insurance payments choice that we shall all have to make at the general for those who hired people under 21. That has paid election will be crucial to the future of many of our dividends, because it has accelerated the decline in constituents. youth unemployment. The state pension is also up by £800. Fuel duty has been frozen. Energy costs are My own constituency badly needs that change of down. Overall, wages now are rising higher than inflation; approach. Youth unemployment is 5.7%, well above the on the latest statistics, total pay is up by 2.1%, whereas United Kingdom average of 3.2%, and median wages inflation is only up by 0.9%. last year were 10% lower than the United Kingdom average. Every week I hear from people who are concerned Andrew Gwynne: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will about the contracts under which they are employed and add to his list of successes the fact that the welfare bill is about their prospects, and who fear that their children up by £25 billion, as a result of increases in housing will be unable to find work. To those people, the last five benefit costs to the Exchequer and the failure of low years have meant a Government who have failed them. pay. As I have said, there will be a choice to be made at the general election. The Government have demonstrated Mr Newmark: It is interesting that the hon. Gentleman that their plan is failing. They boast of economic success, should talk about our welfare policies as his side wants but they have created the early signs of a recovery that to increase spending, whereas we are trying to cap it at a works only for a handful at the top. There is an alternative reasonable state—£26,000, which is £35,000 pre-tax, to a failing plan, and that is a much better plan. The which is higher than the average wage of most people. economy must succeed for working families throughout Labour was financially reckless in government and, it Britain: it must succeed for everyone in the country. I seems, is even more financially reckless in opposition. think that, in 63 days’ time, the people of this country Already it has £20.7 billion of unfunded spending will succeed where the Prime Minister has failed, and commitments for 2015-16, which is £1,200 per household. will hold him to his pledge. He has failed on the HM Treasury estimates Labour now has £32 billion of economy, so they will kick him out, and it will be good borrowing for 2020-21 and £166 billion over the next riddance to a failed Government. Parliament—the next five years—or £10,000 extra per household. I hope voters are listening to that. That is 4.12 pm £10,000 extra per household; they should remember that before they go into the ballot box. We have learned Mr Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): We seem to today that Labour’s new great tax policy is to increase be living in two parallel universes. What the Opposition the cost of gun licence. So Labour’s policy going forward do not seem to realise is that we were facing bankruptcy is, as always, tax more and borrow more. as a country. We were in economic meltdown, and the markets were judging us by raising the cost of our Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): This motion borrowing. That is the best judgment of all: the markets refers to know best when it comes to judging what is going on. “sensible reductions in public spending”. We have heard a great deal from the Opposition Does my hon. Friend know what these reductions are about a banking crisis. Of course there was a banking and how much they might raise, because there is no crisis—there was a worldwide banking crisis, we all mention of that whatever? They are just a blank canvas. know that—but the real problem with the way in which the Opposition were managing our economy was something Mr Newmark: I know, and I suspect Labour will be called a structural deficit. We were spending much more going into the election with a blank canvas, and no on running UK plc than we were bringing in. doubt voters will make their judgment on that. 1011 Future Government Spending4 MARCH 2015 Future Government Spending 1012

Going forward, the Government are committed to Stewart Hosie: That is precisely why the Government raising the personal allowance once again—up from should have taken a flexible approach to deficit £10,500 to £12,500. That is a tax cut for 30 million consolidation, rather than a fixed-term approach. I will people, and removes 1 million of the lowest paid out of say more about that in a moment. tax altogether. The Conservative Government are It is useful today to identify precisely what is on offer, committed to balancing the books by the end of the other than the £30 billion of extra cuts that were Parliament, which the Opposition party is not, and a promised by the Government in January. That is, of Conservative Government are committed to reducing course, no more than a continuation of the existing Government spending to 35.2% by 2020, as the hon. failed policy of fixed-term deficit consolidation and a Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) pointed plan for further attacks on the welfare budget. It is a out. I remind him that when the right hon. Member for plan to balance the books on the backs of the poor, Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) was Chancellor which we now understand means taking levels of public he had borrowing at 35.9%, so we are not talking about expenditure back to those of the 1930s. a huge difference between the 35.2%, which is apparently Today’s motion calls for a an absolute crisis, and the 35.9% in 2000. “different, fairer and more balanced approach” To conclude, the Government have a track record to and I agree with that. The key thing that needs to be be proud of: reducing spending; reducing the deficit; changed is the fixed-term approach to cutting the deficit. reducing taxes; and reducing unemployment. Here are Instead of that approach, which has self-evidently failed the words of Christine Lagarde of the International so far, we should have a more flexible, medium-term Monetary Fund—although I will not say this in a strategy whose first principle should be about reducing French accent. She said: debt to a “prudent” level. It is important that the “Certainly from a global perspective this is exactly the sort of Government of the day should specify what is or is not result that we would like to see…More growth, less unemployment, prudent, depending on the real circumstances that they a growth that is more”— face, precisely to deal with the kind of external shocks wait for it— that the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport “inclusive, that is better shared, and a growth that is also sustainable (Oliver Colvile) has just mentioned. and more balanced.” Mrs Main: I hope that the hon. Gentleman can These are the words of Christine Lagarde this year, on enlighten me. What are the “sensible reductions in 15 January 2015, at an IMF roundtable discussion in public spending” proposed in the motion, and how Washington. much will they raise? I really would like to know, given The Government’s long-term economic plan is working, that the motion mentions them. and hopefully on 7 May the British people will not give the keys back to the guys who crashed the car. Stewart Hosie: It is a Labour motion, and I might not even support it. I am merely pointing out that the Tory party told us that the current account would be back in 4.19 pm the black, but it is not. We are borrowing almost £80 billion Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): We debated this year. The Tories’ austerity programme has failed. similar issues early in January, when the Government We need to reduce debt to a prudent level, with the laid out their proposals for the “Charter for Budget Government of the day specifying what is or is not Responsibility”. I explained in that debate that the prudent, depending on the circumstances. A second Government had promised that they would eradicate principle should be that, once debt is reduced, the the entire structural deficit within the five years of this Government should maintain a balanced budget on Parliament. It is important to understand what the average over the medium to long term, not in a way that Government pledged. They specifically stated that debt would prevent them from implementing the steps they would begin to fall as a share of GDP in 2014-15, that believed necessary to achieve their long-term objective, the current account would be in balance in 2015-16 and but in order to afford them the flexibility to deal with that public sector net borrowing in that year would be external shocks over the medium term. barely £20 billion. We now know that, on their numbers, A third principle is that the Government should debt will not begin to fall as a share of GDP until achieve and maintain a level of net worth that provides 2016-17 at the earliest, that the current account will not a buffer against unforeseen factors. A fourth calls on the be back in the black until at least the following year and Government to manage fiscal risks prudently. A fifth that public sector net borrowing will not be £20 billion principle is that the Government should pursue policies for the forthcoming year but almost four times that consistent with a reasonable degree of predictability amount, at £75 billion. In short, the Chancellor and the about the level and stability of tax rates. That is incredibly Government have failed to meet a single one of the key important, because the tax system, tax rates and tax targets that they set for themselves. The Tory policy of a certainty form a vital component of fiscal stability and fixed-term approach to deficit reduction strangled the fiscal responsibility. recovery in the early years of this Parliament, and with tens of billions in cuts and tax rises still to come, the Sandra Osborne: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? inescapable conclusion is that austerity has failed. Stewart Hosie: I am sorry; I have given way already, Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) and we are time-limited. (Con): Does not the hon. Gentleman recognise that The motion also calls for a programme to get the there was a big issue, and that it was called Greece? The current account into surplus and to get the national problems there and in the eurozone blew everything off debt falling as a share of GDP as soon as possible. In course completely. principle, I agree with that, but my party wants to see an 1013 Future Government Spending4 MARCH 2015 Future Government Spending 1014

[Stewart Hosie] I am sure that there will be more of this debate as we move towards the end of this Parliament and into the explicit end to austerity because, as the hon. Member election. I am disappointed that Labour appears on its for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) last Opposition day to have said that it will stick to the pointed out, people have suffered enough already. That Tory spending cuts. Let us hope that the results after the is why we have set out a plan for a modest real-terms election ensure that everybody can change their mind. increase in departmental spending that would deliver £180 billion of investment in the next Parliament. Our 4.28 pm plan would result in the deficit coming down, from 3.4% to 3%, 2.5% and 2.1% of GDP from 2016-17. It is David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): It a plan that would see the national debt fall as a share of has been a pleasure to speak twice this week under your GDP, albeit on a different, more shallow trajectory. It is guidance, Mr Deputy Speaker. If this is to be my last a plan that would in the first year, 2016-17, not see speech in this Parliament with you in the Chair, may I £23 billion of extra Tory-Liberal cuts, but £25 billion of say that I have had an absolutely great time under your investment. We think that is extremely sensible, and it guidance as Deputy Speaker? However, I do hope to ties in to what the Chief Secretary said about active come back, and to see you there again and we could government and what difference that and the Government’s have another life of five years together. investment can make. Today’s issue is a serious one, but I would like this The motion also calls for speech to be in the right vein; it should deal with what “sensible reductions in public spending”. this means to those watching our debate today. We are Our plan is to see a modest increase in departmental bandying figures about all over the place, but what do spending. Although I would most certainly accept a they actually mean to people? I can talk only about my sensible reduction in spending on Trident and its experiences over the past five years. I was a newly replacement—a policy apparently supported by three elected MP and we were going through the Lobby quarters of Labour candidates—that is not on offer making decisions that we knew were going to affect today. Sadly, what Labour appears to have proposed is people’s lives. But we had to take these decisions to get no more than keeping to the Tory spending cuts, and we the country on the right track. Over my five years as a simply cannot support that. first-term MP—after the election I hope to be in a second term, but I do not count my chickens—I have I hope that tomorrow, in Scotland, Labour will take a wanted to see what has happened in my community. different view, and support a real end to austerity and a The first thing I remember talking about was a road in real increase in public spending, because we do need to my community. I am glad to say that that road, which take a different approach. We need to take a different took 70 years to build, came to fruition with my guidance approach to economic management because if we do and under the coalition Government. Costing £123 million, not, we will have set in concrete a further attack on our the road will join up the M6 with the port at Heysham welfare budgets. With 22% of our children, 11% of our and will increase the prosperity in the area tenfold. For pensioners and 21% of our working age adults in Scotland every £1 spent on the road, £10 will be put back into the in poverty, launching a further attack on welfare, as this local economy. Government are planning to do, is simply wrong. We also need to change the way we manage the economy or We are considering building a new power station. My we will be faced with a plan, set out in January by this constituency already has two nuclear power stations, Government, for future discretionary consolidation that which account for 2,000 jobs in the area. Thankfully, changes the ratio of cuts to tax rises from 4:1 to more again under this coalition Government, we have a footprint than 9:1—in effect, trying to balance the books on the for a third nuclear power station, which will be completed backs of the poor. I am sure no Opposition Member in the next five to 10 years, creating a further 2,000 new would support that. jobs. This motion also talks of the need for Let me turn now to schools. Without wanting to be “an economic plan that delivers the sustained rises in living overtly political, schools that were closed down under standards needed to boost tax revenues”. the previous Government have reopened under the coalition. In my constituency, a school was closed down and has That is sensible, so I hope the Labour party and others now reopened. Sadly, another school, Skerton, has closed, would support the Scottish Government’s economic but I am fighting to get it reopened as a free school. We strategy, which was published yesterday. In particular, I can find the money to carry out all this work at a time hope they would support the Scottish business pledge, when austerity is at its worst. which is designed not just to promote economic growth, which is necessary, but to drive fairness and help tackle Sea wall defences have been built in my constituency, inequality at the same time. In return for assistance at a cost of more than £10 million. A mandate went out from the Scottish Government, businesses will be required just before the last general election in which five out of to pay the living wage, commit to an innovation programme, the 10 categories of coastal protection were wiped away. cease using zero-hours contracts, agree to pursue Thankfully, we have put two of them back, and we have international opportunities, make progress on gender saved an area off Sunderland Point. balance, support youth and so on. That is the kind of initiative that should form the bedrock of any genuine Mark Garnier: My hon. Friend has talked a great long-term economic plan, and it is one that recognises deal about how much money the Government have put not only that business growth and economic growth are into his area. Does he also not recognise that private essential to fund and pay for our vital public services, sector investment, such as the £140 million of private but that squeezing out inequality is an absolute prerequisite sector investment that will be put into the Wyre Forest for a growing economy in the first place. in the future— 1015 Future Government Spending4 MARCH 2015 Future Government Spending 1016

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I with huge advantages for taxation. I hold out an olive have to intervene. I have allowed some leeway here, but I branch to the Opposition and ask them to embrace it, will not let this debate be turned into an election broadcast purely and simply because it is better for us all, irrespective for all Members who wish to speak. This is about future of political party. I believe that the country is going in Government spending. Obviously, the hon. Gentleman the right direction—[HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear.”] Thank has set out a bit of a programme, but we are in danger you, I really do. Unemployment is moving towards of going around every constituency and hearing what historic low levels and the future is bright. I would like the measures will be. That is not what today is about. to think that the future is blue, but the electorate will have their say in about eight weeks’ time. I thank the David Morris: I respectfully understand that, but I do House for the five years for which I have been a Member agree with my hon. Friend on that particular point. of Parliament, the Opposition as well as my colleagues, Under the coalition, we have had to make some very and I thank you, too, Mr Deputy Speaker. I hope that I distasteful decisions, but in my area, health is on the up. shall be returned to carry on the good work for Morecambe We had problems in my local hospital which were put to and Lunesdale’s constituents. bed yesterday in the Kirkup inquiry. Since 2010, we have had four new hospital wards at the Royal Lancaster 4.35 pm infirmary. [Interruption.] Yes, we have had a new health centre costing £25 million in Heysham— Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op): I am somewhat bemused to follow the hon. Member for Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. I am trying to be helpful. Morecambe and Lunesdale (David Morris), who seemed This debate is about future Government spending. We to be giving us a public mulling over of his chances of cannot talk about what has been spent. I have allowed re-election in May. We will leave him to consider that. some leeway in that regard. I understand that a general We are discussing Government spending and I am election is coming, but we cannot be so blatant about it. sure that Treasury Ministers will have been hard at This is about future Government spending. I am sure work this morning trying to find some positive news in that the Government want Members to recognise their the briefing published by the Institute for Fiscal Studies. vision for the future, and that the Opposition want to They will have to keep looking, as the report confirms challenge the Government. I know that that is what that working people are worse off now than they were everybody wants. If we can stick around that, I will be in 2010. very grateful. “It’s astonishing actually that seven years later incomes are still no higher than they were pre-recession and indeed for working-age David Morris: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for households they’re still a bit below where they were pre-recession”. indulging me. I got a bit carried away with the good Those are not my words, but those of the IFS director, news in my constituency. So, yes, where are we going in Paul Johnson, who has already been quoted today. the future? The deficit has been halved. As the self- Mr Johnson might well be astonished that after five employment ambassador to the Government, I can say years of this Government life for working people in that one of the largest sectors in our economy is self- Britain is harder, but I am not. In West Dunbartonshire, employment. I am sad to see that the Opposition have we know what a Tory Government means: hardship, not recognised the importance of that sector. job cuts and poverty. This Government have chosen to pursue an austerity Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab) rose— plan that has not worked and that has hurt. David Morris: If the hon. Lady will let me finish, I will gladly give way. Labour’s manifesto, which we have Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): Will the seen on the internet, does not recognise the self-employment hon. Lady give way? sector, as it sees it as a failure in the labour market, which is quite wrong. I say that respectfully to the Gemma Doyle: No, I will not, because my constituents Opposition. I was self-employed for 30 years, so I know want me to make these points, not to give more time to what it is like to survive. Conservative Members. The plan has not hurt the people with the broadest Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con): My shoulders. No, this Government thought that they deserved hon. Friend has set out very eloquently the investment a tax cut. that we have seen in Lancashire in transport and infrastructure, including the £15 million invested in the Stephen Mosley: Will the hon. Lady give way? rail link between Darwen and Manchester— Gemma Doyle: I have already told the hon. Gentleman Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. Absolutely not. The hon. that I will not give him and his broad shoulders any Gentleman should know better than to tempt fate, as more time. the fate will not be good for either of us. This is about The Government’s plan has hurt my constituents. It future Government spending. We do not need pats on has hurt the poorest, the people who have to count the back over spending that has already been invested. every penny to pay the bills every month. What have the Government achieved? Nothing but pain. The Prime David Morris: Once again, thank you for your indulgence, Minister promised that he would balance the books by Mr Deputy Speaker. 2015, but he has failed. Instead, borrowing for 2015-16 The self-employment sector in this country accounts is set to be £75 billion and the Government will have for 760,000 new businesses created since 2010, which borrowed more than £200 billion more than they planned shows that the country has an entrepreneurial spirit, in 2010. Their failure to balance the books is fundamentally 1017 Future Government Spending4 MARCH 2015 Future Government Spending 1018

[Gemma Doyle] make. I know from talking to my constituents on the doorstep that they are fed up with being told one thing linked to their failure to tackle the cost of living crisis in before an election only for something different to happen this country. How can we expect public finances to afterwards. There is too much of that in politics and it improve when Ministers have trapped families all over should stop. the UK in working poverty? Low pay, rising housing The IFS has praised Labour’s approach to our spending costs, disastrous benefit reforms, sky-high unemployment commitments. It is a shame that this Government have and spiralling energy costs are the marks of this five not been able to make promises that they plan to keep. years in office and they are all driving up the cost of Our plans are simple: we will make life better for people social security and driving down living standards. by increasing the national minimum wage, banning exploitative zero-hours contracts, freezing energy bills, Andrew Gwynne: My hon. Friend is making a powerful expanding child care and providing a paid job with point. Is not future Government spending a question of proper training for young people who are unemployed. priorities? This Government introduced the cruel and pernicious bedroom tax; a Labour Government will I know from my conversations with people on the scrap it. doorstep in West Dunbartonshire that they have had enough of the Tory austerity plan. This Government have had five years and they have failed. Gemma Doyle: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It would be naive of us to think that the Government were making life harder for everyone. As he points out, that Stephen Mosley: Will the hon. Lady give way? is simply not the case. The rich are getting richer, bankers’ bonuses are buoyant once again and corporations Gemma Doyle: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, are lining their pockets at the expense of families in the because I have some time left. UK. That is absolutely unacceptable, because when big companies do not pay their taxes the working man and Stephen Mosley: I thank the hon. Lady for giving woman have to pay more. It is clear that five more years way. The motion, which I am sure she will be supporting, of the Tories means a continuation of an economy that calls for rewards only the most privileged while piling on the “sensible reductions in public spending”. pressure for millions of families. That unbalanced and Will she outline what sensible reductions in public spending extreme approach is only going to lead to deeper spending Labour is planning for her constituency? cuts—cuts that my constituents cannot afford to live with. Gemma Doyle: My constituents are among the poorest The Government want us to return to public spending in this country. The point is not to cut spending for the levels last seen in the 1930s, a time before the NHS even poorest people in this country; it is to support them. existed. The point is that millionaires do not need a tax cut; I do not know why the hon. Gentleman thinks they do, but I Stephen Mosley: Will the hon. Lady give way? certainly think they do not. We need to support people in this country who are trying to get by. Gemma Doyle: No, I will not. The hon. Gentleman’s Government have failed. The Labour Members reject this Government’s failing verdict is in: they have had five years and they have austerity plan for what it is: unbalanced, unfair and failed. We need a change of Government. The Labour unjust. This election is about saving the NHS and it is party will do things differently and I hope we get the about opportunities and jobs for our young people. A chance to show that in May, because my constituents Labour Government would take a very different approach cannot suffer another five years of this. to balancing the books, including a bankers’ bonus tax to fund jobs for our young people, a mansion tax to fund an extra 1,000 nurses in Scotland and raising taxes 4.43 pm so that the richest pay more. Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): I am afraid this Opposition day debate proves one thing Stephen Mosley: Will the hon. Lady give way? more than anything else: Labour has not changed and it never will. Gemma Doyle: No, I will not give way. I am a bit of a political anorak and occasionally I Our spending plans would support working people, watch re-runs of previous general elections. One of my boost living standards, protect our NHS and support favourite moments is from the 1983 election when, in the next generation. We want people in this country to the early hours of the morning, Robin Day, with a glass do well, but we are not afraid of asking those with the of Scotch in his hand, turned to Arthur Scargill and broadest shoulders to contribute more. If someone has asked him, “Well, Mr Scargill, what do you think a done well for themselves under this Government, the future Conservative Government will mean for all the next Government or any Government, they should pay voters out there?” Arthur Scargill proceeded to give a their fair share. bit of a diatribe not dissimilar to the utterances of the We need to pull together as a society, not drift further hon. Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) on apart. We need to return to being a country that works the Labour Front Bench. He said, “Public services will for people, not against them, and that provides public be smashed and the NHS will be privatised.” I half services that families can rely on when they need them expected the four horsemen of the apocalypse to turn most. Unlike this Government, we are taking the important up at some point and also to see Mr Burns from “The step of ensuring that we can deliver every promise we Simpsons” rubbing his hands. 1019 Future Government Spending4 MARCH 2015 Future Government Spending 1020

The reality is that everything changes in politics, but look at what is being put in, rather than the more nothing does actually change. If my hon. Friend the important point of what is being achieved. Through Financial Secretary wants guidance on where Labour is greater efficiency and a reduction in bureaucracy and in the 21st century, he would do well to look at the waste, we can be smarter with public money. People soothsaying words of Arthur Scargill, because that often say to me on the doorstep, “We want politicians appears to be the party’s direction of travel. to spend our money the way you would spend the money in your own pocket, your own wallet, your own Mr Anderson: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? purse.” We need a long-term approach from a party which has the long-term interests of the economy at its Paul Uppal: I know I am going to regret this, but I heart. will give way. The NHS provides a good example of how less bureaucracy leads to improved services. We have rightly Mr Anderson: As a matter of historical fact, was increased the NHS budget, but at the same time we are Arthur Scargill right that the Conservative Government using public funds better. The NHS is something to be decimated the public service that was the National Coal valued and protected, but we have made tough decisions Board and the coal industry, putting 200,000 miners on to improve front-line services. Let us be under no illusion. the dole and ending up with this country today importing The only thing that is a long-term threat to the NHS is coal from places such as Ukraine, where 30 men were Labour being in power and running our economy into killed yesterday because of the lousy safety record in the ground, because without a strong economy we that part of the world? cannot have good public services. If Labour is not going to borrow more to cover its spending binge, how will it Paul Uppal: The hon. Gentleman’s words prove my pay for it? I am sure most of the country want an point. We need to look forward to the future. answer to that question. Through 13 years of government and five years of It is my view, and that of many others, that Labour is opposition, Labour has not learned from its previous planning a post-election corporation tax rise. The BBC mistakes—mistakes that left us with the biggest deficit has already reported that Labour will pay for some of in our peacetime history and took this country to the its spending by not going ahead with our vital 1p cut in brink of bankruptcy. The Leader of the Opposition has the main corporation tax. That is not just a cut in the returned to the old Labour argument that cutting spending rate of corporation tax, but simplifies the tax system. I will work and refuses to accept that the £30 billion of fear that Labour will go further and instead increase consolidations that we will continue to make are what is corporation tax, taking Britain out of its competitive needed for the economic health of the country. Labour’s position. Such a rise would be disastrous for the UK plans to spend more without higher taxes will naturally economy and our jobs recovery. We have seen the lead to increased borrowing and an ever-increasing debt impact that low taxes have had on the jobs market, and burden on future generations. Our children and that move would undo the hard work that we have done grandchildren will have to pick up the tab for those to ensure that families have a guaranteed monthly pay plans. cheque. Analysis has shown that even a 1p rise would Paul Johnson, the director of the Institute for Fiscal lead to massive job losses, forcing unemployment up Studies, who has already been quoted, predicts that and increasing welfare. The Institute of Directors has Labour rule would mean that the national debt will described it as a climb £170 billion higher by the 2020s. The irony is that “dangerous move to risk our business-friendly environment in the Opposition frequently rail against banks and the this way”. bankers, but it is their policies that will mean that a The BBC has gone even further and said: higher proportion of our national income flows into “Labour must realise that you can’t rob Peter to pay Paul.” banks and bankers’ pockets in debt repayments and Our business-friendly policies have helped the UK become interest charges, instead of being spent on public services. one of the best countries to do business in, increasing Surely the Opposition can see that the only way we can employment levels and reducing the deficit. Labour’s get to grips with Britain’s debt is to tackle the deficit. plans, or the lack thereof, would wreck that. Thanks to the difficult decisions this Government have made, we are cutting it by half. I am surprised that Labour has chosen to go down this route on its final Opposition day. It would have Let us not forget that there is some good news out done better by apologising for the financial heart attack there. Opposition Members seem to forget that. Our it inflicted on this country. Thank goodness that the economy is growing at the fastest rate in the G7, and the Government have sorted it out. We might think that only way to ensure that this continues is the Conservatives’ there are lots of smart people in this Chamber, and long-term economic stewardship. Over the past few there are, but one lesson is absolutely crucial: never take years nearly 750,000 businesses have been created and the voters out there for fools or think that they are unemployment is down by almost 2 million. In my stupid. They can see the reality of what we have delivered constituency, Wolverhampton South West, unemployment over the past five years. has fallen by more than 1,000 since May 2010, after rising in the previous five years. 4.50 pm There is still much more to do, which is why Britain must stick with our long-term economic plan. Labour Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): I am glad that still believes fundamentally in more borrowing, more the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West (Paul spending and more debt. It does not have a serious, Uppal) finished his speech by saying that this is Labour’s long-term plan to fix Britain’s economy or to reduce final Opposition day—hopefully it will be the last for a our debt. Often when talking about public services we very long time. Is anyone else sick of hearing the term 1021 Future Government Spending4 MARCH 2015 Future Government Spending 1022

[Mr David Anderson] Mr Anderson: I rarely disagree with my hon. Friend, but I could never bring myself to watch the Tory party “long-term economic plan”? Government Members are conference. However, I heard what they said, and it is not; they seem to think it is a catchy phrase. What have quite clear what they would do: they would have to take we had for the past four years? We have had a short-term £7 billion from somewhere, and it will be the public economic scam. sector. They are committed to going back to the level The Government promised to cut the deficit in four that things were at in the 1930s, when people in this years, but they have completely and utterly failed. They country were, quite frankly, living like slaves, working in promised not to borrow, but they have borrowed £219 billion conditions that were abhorrent and going home to more that they said they would—enough to run the houses that were a disgrace. That is why when my party health service for two years. They have decimated public came into government in 1945 we had a massive house services, destroying hundreds of thousands of good-quality building project. That is why we nationalised the coal jobs done by people who were delivering vital public industry, the rail industry and the steel industry—the services to the people we represent. They were working Conservatives had let them run into disrepair for decades hard, contributing and paying income tax and national and did not care a toss about the people who worked in insurance contributions. them and lived in conditions that were worse than we could ever imagine. The Government have hammered every man, woman and child in this country with a 2.5% VAT rise, and the The Government have not only failed on those levels— Liberal Democrats supported it, despite saying they they have also failed to collect money because they have would not. The Government have made life desperate made people go out of wealthier jobs into low-paid jobs for those people who rely on benefits, so those who were where they are not paying income tax or national insurance already poor have been made poorer. They have penalised contributions. They have collected £68 billion less in people for having the temerity to be in poverty by income tax than they projected and lost £27 billion in bringing in things like the poverty tax—I meant the national insurance contributions. You couldn’t make it bedroom tax, but actually I was right first time. up, Mr Deputy Speaker. We can see where they want to be. They want to take us back to the 1930s, when we The Government have given away successful public had a low-paid, low-skill work force who were frightened assets such as Royal Mail. They privatised the successful to stand up to the boss, made to go to work when they side and nationalised the deficit, which was the pensions. did not want to, and made to work for poverty wages. Now even the chief executive worries that it will not be That is exactly what they want to us to go back to—unless, able to keep the universal service obligation. This week of course, you are one of their friends who happens to they privatised East Coast, the best performing railway be the chairman of a FTSE 100 company, and who last line in the country, and now they are talking about year, on average, had a £4.27 million salary. That is a lot privatising Eurostar. We all know, despite their promises, of money, even for the Conservatives. Perhaps it is not that if they are re-elected the NHS will be moving as much as some of them earn, but it is a lot of money. rapidly towards privatisation, whether via a transatlantic The directors in those firms got a 21% pay rise, on trade and investment partnership or some other route. average, while at the same time the Government are My council has been hammered. It now has 45% less denying a pay rise of even a meagre 1% to nurses, money than it did four years ago, meaning that every firefighters and care workers—the people who keep this man, woman and child has been robbed of £328. We country running day in, day out, and contribute more in have lost 1,700 high-quality people who were delivering a day than some of these leeches will do in a lifetime. services to the people of my town. We have lost a fire engine, and another has been lost in a different part of Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) the constituency, and 130 firefighters had to go across (Lab): My hon. Friend is making a very powerful Tyne and Wear. The fire chief’s advice is, “I am being speech. Is it not also a disgrace that young people are forced to make 35% cuts, and if I do that lives will be being hammered in so many different directions by this lost.” Lives will be lost not only in fires, but on the A1 Government and have seen an average 7.8% drop in motorway, which goes through my constituency, the their income over the past five years? third most congested road in Britain, because firefighters will no longer be available to get people out of damaged vehicles. Mr Anderson: It is an absolute disgrace. One of the saddest things of my life is that I might go out of it—I There really is a long-term economic plan, and we hope a long time from now—and leave behind a generation know what it is: to continue making rich people richer—the who are worse off than I was, for the first time ever. We same as it has always been with the Tories. They will not should hang our heads in shame if that is where we end stop their friends having dodgy tax deals, because they up with the young people of this country, because it is use the dodgy tax funding for their election campaigns. clearly where we are going. During the past week, I have They will not cut taxes for the poor, but they will for the been approached by a young man who was an apprentice, rich—£7 billion of unfunded tax promises. and who became ill and had to come off work. He was not even allowed to get statutory sick pay. That is how Andrew Gwynne: My hon. Friend, as an avid watcher disgraceful things are in this day and age. of politics, will have seen that in last year’s Conservative party conference the Prime Minister and the Chancellor Oliver Colvile rose— promised £7 billion of unfunded tax cuts. Is he as worried as I am that they would fund those by making more cuts to the public services that our constituents Mr Anderson: I give way to my hon. Friend from rely on? Plymouth. 1023 Future Government Spending4 MARCH 2015 Future Government Spending 1024

Oliver Colvile: I am interested in what the hon. Gentleman Government. They could have introduced a proper has to say, but nobody has mentioned how we are going costed programme. As my hon. Friend the Member for to create wealth in order to meet some of the costs that Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal) has said, we end up having to pay. they could have apologised for the huge number of errors they made in government. All elections, including Mr Anderson: I am glad that I gave way: thank you the one in 63 days’ time, are about hope versus fear. very much for being my straight man, Oliver. The Tories From them we hear fear and smear, but we have a policy will have us believe that prosperity will trickle down. of hope, because we have turned around the economy Where is it going to trickle down from? There is no following the disastrous economic legacy left by the proof of that. In my part of the world, 4,000 people will Labour party. benefit from the income tax hand-back, but 144,000 have seen their tax credits cut at the same time. Young Mrs Main: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Elections people and other people in my part of the world have should be about honesty and transparency. The Labour lost £1,160 a year, so they will not be doing very much party has mentioned spending cuts, but it is not telling to create the wealth of this country. us which it will make. In the programme that we will put forward, we will Mr Jackson: Absolutely. In more than two hours, we put small businesses first by lowering their taxes. We have not heard anything, except in relation to gun will promote a proper industrial strategy for our biggest licences and, of course, the recycled bankers’ bonuses. employers, not just the high-tech firms, and work in partnership with them and the trade unions—I know What a contrast between the Opposition and the that is a dirty word for Conservative Members—to Labour party on the cusp of the election on 1 May create the situation where we increase the national 1997, when I was a candidate and lost by the not minimum wage to a level it should be at, unlike the inconsiderable majority of 19,500 in Brent South. No Conservatives, who opposed it at every step. We will wonder Labour MPs are depressed when they are sober reverse the cut in the top rate of tax, because that is the and catatonic when drunk, quite frankly, because they right thing to do. We will close the loopholes that have know there is an acute contrast between that historic been exploited by the friends and funders of the election and now. The Labour Government led by Tony Conservatives, who take the money off them to run Blair was ambitious, and their programme was thoughtful, their election campaigns. forward looking, positive, generous and optimistic. Tony Blair is now persona non grata in the Labour party, and We will freeze gas and electricity bills, because we are it now has a core vote strategy, with a mean-spirited, sick to death of these companies saying “We can’t do peevish, insular, dreary collection of bungs to special any more.” Now they are saying, “Leave us alone, leave interest groups, and smears and caricatures aimed at the us alone.” They have bled this country dry ever since Conservative party. they were privatised in the 1980s. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West complained about what What is more, Labour policy does not stand up to was said in the 1980s, but what was projected then is any form of scrutiny. We have heard about the utilities exactly what happened. Public services were decimated price freeze—a disastrous policy that has damaged the and the people of this country are paying the price industry and, perversely, will damage the interests of every time they pay an electricity bill, a gas bill or a consumers. Wither Labour’s cost of living crisis? Today, water bill. the IFS says that prices are being outstripped by wages for the first time since 2007. There is no more cost of We will devolve power to councils and people at living crisis because wages are growing at 2.1% against a lower levels so they can take proper decisions on the retail prices index of 0.9%. On fuel, council tax, food, front line and at the cutting edge, where they know what beer duty and children’s air passenger duty, the Government is going on in their areas. We will make work pay. We have made efforts to reduce the cost of living of ordinary will stop exploitive zero-hours contracts, because nothing families. We have driven up the personal allowance, and in the world will ever convince me that having people on we are committed to drive it up to £12,500 in the next tenterhooks, not knowing whether they will work the Parliament. next day, is an absolute and utter disgrace. We will increase the minimum wage to £8 an hour. That will Sheila Gilmore: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? boost the pay of more than 76,000 people in my part of the world, which they will be really delighted about. Mr Jackson: No, I will not give way at present. At the end of the day, we will end this system of As we have already heard, the 45p tax rate has raised despair. People have said, “We had no alternative. We more income for public services than was ever done by had to do it this way.” They did not have to do it this the 50p rate, which was put in place for cynical political way; they chose to do it this way—on the back of the reasons. We will not take any lectures from the party most vulnerable in society. that abolished the 10p tax rate for the poorest working families. What sticks in my craw is the moral superiority Several hon. Members rose— of the Labour party in this debate. In 2011, 1,200 people in my constituency had been parked on out-of-work Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Before benefits—incapacity benefit or invalidity benefit—for I call Mr Stewart Jackson, let me say that there is now a more than 10 years during a period of economic growth. six-minute limit on speeches. Some 5.2 million were parked on out-of-work benefits when the economy was growing quarter by quarter 5pm during the 13 years of the Labour Government. We will Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): What a not take any lectures or moral indignation from the pathetic, facile motion the Opposition have brought hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle) forward for their last Opposition day debate during this and other Labour Members. 1025 Future Government Spending4 MARCH 2015 Future Government Spending 1026

[Mr Stewart Jackson] Higher mortgage rates, higher unemployment, higher prices, more debt and borrowing, punishing middle-class The top 1% of taxpayers are paying 25% of income earners, punishing aspiring wealth creators, same old taxes. We have driven up employment levels. More class envy, same old spiteful prejudice, same old economic women than ever are working. Some 30.9 million people failure, same old Labour—on 7 May, the British people are working, despite the ludicrous prognostications of just won’t risk it. people such as David Blanchflower, who told us that 5 million people would be unemployed, and the right 5.8 pm hon. Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls), who said that we could not cut expenditure and have growth Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): I would like to in private sector jobs—complete and utter nonsense. In say that it is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for my constituency, unemployment has gone down by Peterborough (Mr Jackson), but he reminded me of a almost 60% and youth unemployment by almost 66%. performance by Sir Ian Bowler at a “Stand up for Labour” event at the Labour club in my constituency, which was a caricature of a particularly unpleasant Stephen Mosley: Under the last Government, almost form of Conservatism in this country. I can see now 1 million young people were out of work. Through how Ian Bowler was inspired. The hon. Gentleman apprenticeships and job opportunities, those people used ugly language to portray a gross mischaracterisation now have opportunities and hope for the future. They of the events of recent years. are the people who are benefitting from this Government. Does my hon. Friend agree? The hon. Gentleman called for some humility. He might have acknowledged that when the Government Mr Jackson: I absolutely agree. My hon. Friend has came to office, they promised to balance the books and put forward the strong views of his constituents in said that we would all be in it together. They have failed Chester for the past five years, and I expect him to be on both counts, and people in his Peterborough constituency handsomely re-elected. know that. What I find depressing is the pernicious smear and “In five years’ time, we will have balanced the books,” myth that we are going back to the 1930s, when there the Prime Minister told the CBI in October 2010. Let us was no NHS. That is a lie. It is disingenuous to make be absolutely clear: that promise has been broken. They that point. First, the figures were not even collected have not balanced the books and the next Labour until 1956. Secondly, the economy is at least 10 times Government are set to inherit a large deficit as a result. bigger than it ever was in the 1930s. As I made clear in The Office for Budget Responsibility says that borrowing an earlier intervention, expenditure as a proportion of in 2015-16 is set to be £75 billion. The Government will GDP is more or less the same as it was in 2002—the be borrowing over £200 billion more than they planned fifth year of a Labour Government. in 2010. It is because of their failure to deliver on debt I will not dwell on Labour’s record on the economy, and tackle the cost of living crisis that we so desperately other than to say that we had a record decline in need a Labour Government. manufacturing—that is for the benefit of the hon. Member Despite Tory claims that our economy is fixed— for Blaydon (Mr Anderson)—we had disastrous school Conservative Members go around the country and we results, youth unemployment doubled, a quarter of all see pictures of the Chancellor in his hard hat doing a public expenditure was borrowed by the end of Labour’s lap of honour while the public look on incredulous—wages rule and there was a structural deficit when the economy have stagnated for many workers. Too many of the jobs was growing. While we are at it, inequality grew between that are being created are in low-paid insecure work, 1997 and 2010. The gap between the poorest 10% and rather than high-productivity sectors. I have consistently the richest 10% grew wider during the time of the called for action on zero-hours exploitation, and I Labour Government. introduced a private Member’s Bill on the issue. I am What a contrast that is to what we have done. We pleased that we have made a tiny bit of progress, and I have capped benefits, focused on capital investment, was proud of the role I played in getting the Office for driven up the number of apprenticeships, created 760,000 National Statistics to change the way it records figures new jobs, increased the state pension and come up with so that we now have a more accurate reflection of the a properly costed plan for our future. I am proud of the situation. work that this Government have done, given the appalling financial inheritance they were encumbered by in May Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): The 2010. problem of the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) is that a lot of us were in the House when Let us have a little humility from Labour Members. the world economic situation deteriorated. He forgot to The reason they have zero credibility with electors on tell us that the problems started in America. Conservative the deficit and the management of the economy is that Members were in their bunkers at the time and talked they do not believe they did anything wrong. That is about doing something about regulation and so on; normal for a party that won 258 seats, even though if we they never had a policy. Therefore when they talk about had got the same number of votes, we would have got honesty in this debate, they should get up and admit fewer than 200 seats because of the boundaries. They that they suddenly discovered there was a problem after think, “One more heave. More spending and more they came to power. What happened? People’s wages borrowing is absolutely fine.” have been cut by 7%. However, the election of a Labour Government is an existential threat to the health and prospects of the Andy Sawford: My hon. Friend is right. Conservative economy and my constituency, and to the mortgages, Members were calling for less regulation of banking in jobs, pensions, savings and businesses of my constituents. this country. Not only did they back Labour’s spending 1027 Future Government Spending4 MARCH 2015 Future Government Spending 1028 plans right up to the time of the global financial crash, What about the second part of the Government’s but I remember that in my area they paraded around promise: that we are all in this together? They promised during the 2005 election calling for more spending and us that they would not balance the budget on the back criticising the then Labour Government because we had of the poor. They cut the 50p rate to 45p, handing a not built enough hospitals, rebuilt enough schools, created £3 billion tax cut to the richest 1%. They handed people enough Sure Start centres, or put more police on the earning £1 million a tax cut of more than £42,000 a beat. They had the cheek to call for more public spending year, while cutting council tax support for war widows in 2005, and now 10 years later they pretend that they and the disabled. They imposed the deeply unfair bedroom were counselling caution at that time when they plainly tax, which has had the direct result of driving many were not. people into the queues at the food banks in my constituency The notion that the Labour party—the powerful and across the country. I want to thank Hope church Labour party that created a global financial crash that for its brilliant work, which I try to support. The people hit a Conservative-led Government in Germany and of Corby have been brilliant. The food bank ran out of right-wing Governments in France and America—did stocks recently. We put out an appeal and within 24 so because we were investing in schools and hospitals is hours it was full again. However, people in this country, completely absurd. The public have found the Government one of the wealthiest countries in the world, should not out and they will be exposed for it at the election. have to rely on food banks. That is Tory Britain. Since 2010, there have been 24 Tory tax rises. Ordinary Andrew Gwynne: Let me take my hon. Friend back to families are paying £450 a year more in VAT. Figures what he said about low pay and its impact on the from the IFS show that households will on average be economy.Low pay is not just a tragedy for our constituents more than £1,000 a year worse off by the time of the who are forced to accept low wages; it is a disaster for next general election. This is the first Government to the economy of Britain. We have seen tax receipts drop lower living standards during their time in office. It gets by £68 billion, and national insurance contributions by worse: because of their failure and their dogma—the £27.3 billion—money that could be invested in public Tory party tried to stop the NHS being created in the services. first place—they are now planning to take us back to a time before the NHS existed, to a 1930s level of spending. Andy Sawford: My hon. Friend is right. The effect of At the coming election, there will be a very stark low and stagnant pay means that tax receipts have been choice. Under Tory plans, the state will shrink from much lower than expected. The Government have failed 41% now to 35% by the end of the next Parliament. on the deficit and the cost of living crisis. Low pay is That is the lowest level since 1939, before the NHS combining with higher housing costs and the failure to existed and when children left school at the age of 14. deliver benefit reform to drive down social security That is the equivalent of cutting every penny we spend costs, which are rising under this Government. The on schools, half the budget of our NHS, and more than Tory-led Government are set to spend £25 billion more all the Departments’ capital budgets added together, on social security than they planned in 2010. We need including what we spend on investment in schools, action on the issues that our constituents are facing. hospitals, roads, railways, housing, science and flood In my area it is not just zero-hours exploitation that defences. causes insecurity, and many people are working through People in my constituency know that I have been agencies. They come off the books of the jobcentre to fighting very hard to try to stop cuts to the local fire work for an agency. That work might last days, weeks, service and to keep Sure Start centres open. The children’s or a few months if they are lucky, and sometimes they centre in Raunds has just closed. Our police stations are get exploited working year in, year out through an threatened: the front desk at Oundle has just closed and agency without holiday pay or proper terms and Corby police station is threatened with closure. We have conditions—desperately insecure employment. Although had cuts to our ambulance services. Last week, the a few agencies follow the law, when HMRC investigated captain of Corby Town football club broke his leg in agencies in my constituency they found more than two places and dislocated his ankle. An ambulance was 70 breaches of the law, and £120,000 owing to local called at 8.10 pm. It came at 11.10 pm. workers in non-payment of the minimum wage. People were being made to pay to get their own pay through That is what has happened in the first five years of a payroll companies, or they had to pay illegally for their Tory Government. People know what will happen in the own protective equipment. That is the real world that next five years of a Tory Government. Our NHS will be many people face in my constituency and across the completely decimated, as our social care services have country. been in this Parliament. People in my constituency and across the country cannot afford five more years of this Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con): Will the hon. Gentleman rotten Tory Government. give way? 5.17 pm Andy Sawford: I have no more time. The Prime Minister said that he would name and shame those companies. A Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) year ago he made me that promise at the Dispatch Box (Con): First, may I thank the Opposition very much during Prime Minister’s questions, in front of the whole indeed for securing this debate? This is one of the most House and the country. It was on the front page of my important issues that we need to discuss between now local paper, but a year on he still has not named and and 7 May. I congratulate my right hon. and hon. shamed those local companies. The people in my area Friends on the Treasury team on controlling public do not know which of these agencies is most likely to expenditure and making progress on reducing the deficit. rip them off. I do that not only as a Member of Parliament but 1029 Future Government Spending4 MARCH 2015 Future Government Spending 1030

[Oliver Colvile] Another incredibly important issue in my constituency is the rebalancing of Plymouth’s low-waged, low-skilled principally as a taxpayer. I do not particularly want to economy. More than 38% of people working in the city see my mortgages go up because we have a Labour are employed by the public sector, and when I was first Government. elected, people believed that Plymouth would be badly I first raised this issue during the 2001 general election hit by, and vulnerable to, the cuts to public expenditure, campaign, the first of the three times that I have fought and there was the threat of the claimant count in my Plymouth seat. At a meeting of the Plymouth the city going through the roof, but I am delighted chamber of commerce, I pointed out to then Labour to say that under this Government the count has fallen MP that the then Chancellor’s Red Book clearly stipulated by 42%. that the Government would be creating a structural The city council has criticised me for voting to control budget deficit. My predecessor looked somewhat blankly public expenditure, claiming that the Government have at me and did not appear to be familiar with the not invested in the south-west, but it fails to recognise Treasury’s Red Book. At the 2005 election when I that they have given Plymouth and the peninsula a city talked about this again, she seemed to have become a deal that, in return for £10 million, will create 10,000 little more familiar with the Red Book. I was told that new jobs. It fails to acknowledge that releasing land in the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath South Yard will deliver a marine industry campus and (Mr Brown) always got his sums right and that I was create 1,200 new jobs—this would be helped significantly just scaremongering. Well, I just have to ask one question: by an enterprise zone in South Yard as well. It fails to “Oh, really?” acknowledge that they have given us the Mayflower 2020 commemorations, which will boost the local tourist I would like to pay tribute to Warwick Lightfoot, a industry, and the council has disregarded the £2.6 billion very good friend of mine and a former special adviser at investment in our dockyard, which will safeguard 4,000 the Treasury. He has provided me with the intelligence new jobs, and dismissed the dualling of the A303 after and ammunition in the past 15 years to deal with these the next election. issues. Soon after my election in 2010, with his help, I submitted a paper on my thoughts about the strategic The biggest threat to my city over the next few weeks defence and security review. I made it quite clear that would be the return of a Labour Government, because, while I recognised the need to control the public expenditure unfortunately, a Labour Government would never think envelope, I named my spending priorities as defence about Plymouth—they would be much more interested and long-term care for the elderly. Representing a naval in looking after Scotland at Plymouth’s expense. Following garrison city, I have in the past five years consistently the 1997 election, when Tony Blair won his landslide, called on the Government to spend at least 2% of GDP Labour had only four seats in the whole of Devon and on defence. This could be achieved by taking the renewal Cornwall, meaning they did not invest in transport or of the nuclear deterrent out of the defence budget and skills there. I fear that Labour would put this investment returning it to the Treasury. into Scotland at our expense and would not deliver on Mayflower 400. I am grateful that the seven Type 23 frigates that the We need a stronger Navy. We need to put pressure on previous Labour Government had proposed to send to the Government for more funds to fix our potholes, in Portsmouth have been returned to Plymouth, and I am addition to the £9.6 million the council has been given delighted that HMS Protector has been sent from over the past five years, and we need to restore our Portsmouth to Devonport. It is good to have another maritime built heritage, particularly Devonport’s north ship there. corner pontoon and sea wall. If we want to ensure that Drake’s drum does not sound, we need the Prime Minister Adam Afriyie: My hon. Friend is a powerful advocate back in No. 10 and a Conservative Chancellor making for his constituents and has won some great concessions the right decisions. on their behalf in his time here. Does he share my concern—in a way, it is a sadness—that Labour does Several hon. Members rose— not seem to have learned anything in the past four or Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I am five years? It calls for more spending regardless of reducing the time limit to five minutes. whether there is a budget surplus or deficit. If it continued spending as it would like, this country would be back on 5.24 pm its knees in the blink of an eye. Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op): In 2010, the Conservative leader, then in opposition, promised he Oliver Colvile: My hon. Friend talks the truth about would be able to “balance the books” by 2015—in other the importance of our controlling public expenditure. words, during the term of this Parliament that is coming Over the past five years, I have worked closely with to an end. He failed to do so. Borrowing for 2015-16 is Plymouth university’s Ian Sherriff on long-term care now set for £75 billion. It is clear that the Conservative-led for the elderly and combating dementia, which is something Government have borrowed more than £200 billion I know my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister takes more than was planned in 2010. The books have not very seriously. For those in our mid-50s and facing old been balanced, yet there has been a great deal of borrowing. age, the worry is that we will get dementia, so I pay Where has that money gone? I can say where it has not tribute to the Government for implementing the vast gone. Not much of it has gone on spending in constituencies majority of the Dilnot report. We have much further to such as mine. go, but it is a start. Unfortunately, the previous Labour The Government’s failing austerity plan risks reducing Government did not do much about implementing their the role of the state to a size not seen since the 1930s, royal commission. as we have seen. Nowhere is this more evident than in 1031 Future Government Spending4 MARCH 2015 Future Government Spending 1032 my Preston constituency and certain other parts of 5.29 pm Lancashire. The commitment to spending cuts is beginning Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): to show in the quality of local health care. The number At the heart of the motion is the idea that the Government’s of elective operations cancelled in Lancashire has gone economic policy is failing. It raises a scenario of a up by an average of 12%. Still on health care, I am country going back to the 1930s—a country without particularly concerned about the decline in the North the NHS and with mass unemployment. It was indeed a West ambulance service response times for both red dark time, as the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) 1 and red 2 emergency responses. According to the most said. I simply do not recognise that scenario, however— recent data in 2014, response times within the standard either for my own constituency or for the country more eight minutes were down by 3.5%, while red 2 emergency broadly. The motion raises the spectre of no NHS. That response times were down by 5%. Those are just two is absolute nonsense. The NHS budget has risen by examples of how the health service in my constituency £12.7 billion during this Parliament. has been degraded and how public services have been degraded generally—despite the extra borrowing undertaken by the Government. Mark Hendrick: The budget may have risen, but the delivery of front-line services, and of services more The spending cuts have drastically affected front-line generally, has been overshadowed by the top-down policing in Lancashire. Since 2010, the number of new reorganisation which the Government, when in opposition, police officers in the north-west has fallen by 28%. said would not happen. That is where much of the Since 2010, too, 291 police officers have been cut from money has gone. It has not been spent on the delivery of front-line policing roles in Lancashire, accounting for services. 10% of the whole of the Lancashire police force. The cut in Government spending on front-line policing in Andrew Jones: I think that the hon. Gentleman is Lancashire has had a direct impact on local crime. Since mistaken. The restructuring of the NHS has saved 2013, drug crimes have risen in Preston, and domestic money, and we have more doctors and nurses as a burglaries have gone up by an average of nearly 6% over result. Indeed, Members on both sides of the House the last five years. Offences involving knives and other have backed the NHS’s “Five Year Forward View”. To sharp objects in 2013 rose, on the most recently available suggest that we are not investing in health in our country statistics, by 8.4%. Hate crimes and disability hate crimes is simply mistaken. The Opposition’s suggestion that are at an all-time high in Lancashire. the NHS is somehow under enormous pressure is scaring people, because we all rely on the NHS. We have seen cuts in child care, too. The number of early-years child care providers in Lancashire has declined Is our plan failing? No, it is not. The evidence simply by nearly 4.5% since 2012. On housing, there are currently is not there. Our economic growth is faster than that of 3,394 households on the waiting list for social housing any other developed economy, but the best evidence in Preston—3,394 too many. What we are now seeing is that the plan is succeeding is what that growth means to a clear manifestation of what we call the working poor. people, and that is the level of work. Unemployment We used to define people as poor if they were out of has been falling, and a huge number of jobs are being work and struggling. Now, however, we see the working created: 1.85 million have been created during this poor paying regular visits to Preston’s food banks. Parliament. In my constituency, the figures are extremely positive. At the start of this Parliament, there were The unemployment figures might be falling, but the 13,084 unemployed people; now there are 529. That real picture is very different. Low pay is endemic, and pattern is mirrored throughout the country, and it means there is wage stagnation. The Conservatives said that if that more people are able to provide for themselves and we introduced the minimum wage, it would cost a their families. million jobs. As we know, the introduction of the minimum The motion suggests that the economic plan is unfair. wage created lots of jobs. We are seeing more zero-hours It is not. There is nothing fair about saddling future contracts, at the same time as we are seeing what I take generations with debt. Of course dealing with a huge to be sanctions placed on people—not necessarily because recession is a challenge. We all know that people have they are not looking for work, but because the Department been under enormous pressure which has been compounded for Work and Pensions has an unofficial and devolved by food price and fuel inflation, although that it is policy of targeting sanctions on people by various passing. However, the key Government tax policy has officers and offices. On the “Dispatches” programme been an enormous help. The huge increases in the on Channel 4 the other night, we saw people dying personal allowance have benefited about 25 million as a result of these sanctions. Agency workers are people, and in my constituency about 4,500 people contributing to the problem, and people are either have been taken out of tax altogether. Both the Treasury being forced to go self-employed or forced off the and the Institute for Fiscal Studies have confirmed that register altogether. the richest are making the largest contribution to reducing Some 1,200 properties in Preston have to pay the our deficit, as they should. My hon. Friend the Financial bedroom tax, while we have seen cuts in local government Secretary referred to that earlier. spending and cuts in health service provision, as I said. How does the Government’s plan compare with others? For the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) If we are failing here, how are other countries doing? I to say that there is no cost of living crisis is incredible, think that they are looking at our progress with some when year after year since 2007, inflation has run ahead envy. The international response from the OECD, and of wages. Now, because there has been a small upturn, the national response from business groups, is that the he tries to pretend that it has never been any different. plan is working. The head of the OECD has said that The Government are a disgrace; the quicker we can get Britain “needs to stick with” its long-term economic rid of them, the better. Bring on 7 May! plan. 1033 Future Government Spending4 MARCH 2015 Future Government Spending 1034

Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): Does my recovery in living standards in history. I do not think hon. Friend agree that there is an alternative to the any reasonable Government would expect to be re-elected Government’s long-term economic plan, namely the with that kind of record, and those are the facts. Labour party’s proposals, which would take this country What was extraordinary about the debate was the in the direction of Greece? way in which the Government, having twice moved the goalposts on their deficit target, again tried to pull this Andrew Jones: I entirely agree. There is indeed an extraordinary trick over the eyes of the country today. alternative, and that alternative is pretty stark. The As I said in an intervention, the “Charter for Budget choice to be made at the next election will be one of the Responsibility”, which this House endorsed in January, most important that we have faced for a generation. made no reference to balancing the current Budget by I am sure that, when the motion was drafted, the 2017-18. It talked about a rolling five-year forecast, yet Opposition did not realise that the IFS would publish a it was used today by the Financial Secretary, who is no report today highlighting the fact that average incomes longer in his place, to refer to a bogus sum saying that have returned to pre-crisis levels. I recognise that the £30 billion in cuts were implied by that charter. That position is not the same for different groups in our type of approach shows that the view of the Conservative community, and that much more needs to be done. I party and this Government is, “This is as good as it know that we all want to see living standards rise. I am gets”, and that we should have no ambition for our strongly in favour of the living wage, and was pleased country of higher growth, higher skills and higher when it was adopted by Harrogate borough council. investment than that which they have been able to However, the motion is nonsense. Claims that we are provide. My constituents and Opposition Members reject heading back to the 1930s are ridiculous. that completely. Yes, an incoming Conservative Government would Let us look at what the International Monetary Fund see public spending fall as a percentage of our economy, is saying on growth. It says that next year growth will from about 40% now to 35.2% at the end of the next fall compared with this year and that it will still be Parliament. That is very similar to the 35.9% that we falling the year after. Is that really as good as it gets for saw in 2000, and in real terms, when we allow for Britain in this early stage of the 21st century? The next inflation, the level is the same as it was in 2002. However, Government should follow policies that see us have we will then be living within our means, and the sooner higher growth, higher wages and higher skills. we reach the point at which we are living within our It was also revealing in this debate that the Minister means, the better it will be for our country. could not say whether he supported the Office for Austerity has not choked jobs and growth, as the Budget Responsibility evaluating the fiscal plans of any shadow Chancellor predicted. It has been a key ingredient other party, and small wonder because the National in the progress that we have made. That is why we must Institute of Economic and Social Research, the one continue our drive to balance the books, create the most organisation that has evaluated the plans and looked at favourable possible environment for the wealth creators the difference between the Conservative spending plans in business, and not pretend that the job is done or that and those that would be followed Labour, has said that there is an easy way to make progress. there will be more growth, more jobs, and faster rises in wages under Labour’s spending plans than under those 5.34 pm of the Tories. So there it is: confirmation that if we want to have ambition for our country, a fairer society, better Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): It has public spending and better living standards and outcomes been a pleasure to listen to the whole of this debate and for our constituents, seeing an end to this Government to make a contribution at this stage. It has been a is absolutely critical. revealing debate, showing the paucity of the Government and the Conservatives’ argument for re-election. It comes We also need in this debate a recognition that the way down to this: “We have nearly doubled the debt, we the Government have tried to reduce the deficit in this have completely broken our promise on the deficit, we Parliament has brought exceptional hardship to our have stripped growth out of the economy for the first constituents. Anyone who has held the hand of a disabled three years, we have been the worst Government for 140 person, as I have, having to pay the wicked, pernicious years on wages and living standards—now go on, vote bedroom tax, with tears in her eyes, wondering how any for us and give us a second term.” That is it: no positive decent Government could ever inflict that on any of its policies; no vision of how the economy can be different; citizens, knows that the course the country has been on no vision of how to get more people involved in work, for the past five years is wrong and needs to change. in decent, good paying jobs; no vision of high skill, high Anyone who has seen, as I have in my surgery, people investment, high exports. No; instead, we have just had on low incomes with family members suffering sanctions negativity and fear and I suspect that that is what will imposed through targets from the Department for Work do for this Government on 7 May. and Pensions knows that we are a better country than that and the next Government can do better for all of its Mark Hendrick: My hon. Friend omitted to mention people and produce much more fairness. the fact that voters will, on average, be £1,600 per It is key that we get more people into work, abolish person worse off than they were at the last general long-term unemployment among our young people and election. What sort of Government can present a spectacle those over the age of 25 and ensure that we have an of people being worse off by that amount and still economy with more productivity leading to rises in expect to get re-elected? wages and higher living standards for all. We need an economy that is based more on exports and investment Mr Bain: Indeed, and as the Institute for Fiscal than on the racking up of public and private debt that Studies said this morning, this has been the slowest this Government have presided over. 1035 Future Government Spending4 MARCH 2015 Future Government Spending 1036

I believe that there is a better way, and that the people their true aim, superseding all else. From what we have of this country will vote for it on 7 May. The hon. heard from the Government this afternoon, it is clear Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) talked about that they will continue to keep chipping away at that, fear. As we approach this critical general election, we even as the ground crumbles beneath us. should remember the words of Franklin Roosevelt in We have heard some powerful and passionate speeches his inauguration speech of 1932. He said: from Labour Members this afternoon. We heard from “The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.” my hon. Friends the Members for Rutherglen and Hamilton I do not believe that the British people will be fearful on West (Tom Greatrex), for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma 7 May. I believe that they will be purposeful in voting Doyle), for Blaydon (Mr Anderson), for Corby (Andy out this Government, in voting for change and in voting Sawford), for Preston (Mark Hendrick) and for Glasgow for a Labour Government. North East (Mr Bain), all of whom are powerful champions for their constituents. My hon. Friends were speaking 5.40 pm up for the people who have suffered under this Government, laying out in clear terms what the impact has been on Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- families right across the UK and talking about their op): It is a pleasure to wind up the debate today and to experiences of dealing with the zero-hours contracts, speak in favour of our Opposition motion. This gives the low pay, being on agency work, and the impact of me a chance to describe in plain terms the gulf between cuts on local government, which has affected and in this Government’s spending plans and the approach some cases decimated local services. They spoke about that will be taken by a future Labour Government. It the sense they got from their constituents that living also gives me the opportunity to make it crystal clear standards simply have not improved for them; any that we reject the failed austerity plans that were set out recovery has not yet reached the kitchen table of our in the Government’s autumn statement. constituents. The Minister and the Chancellor were patting themselves My hon. Friends spoke this afternoon about the need on the back in the media this morning, congratulating to do more to tackle tax avoidance. They spoke about themselves on their success. That just shows how out of the inequities of the Government’s lack of action to touch the Government are. As my hon. Friend the tackle the tax dodgers while imposing the hated bedroom Member for Nottingham East (Chris Leslie) said earlier, tax. Labour Members made it very clear that our the Chancellor told the “Today”programme this morning: constituents cannot face another five years of Tory “We’ve got on top of our debts and deficits.” Government and that we need a change. As for the My hon. Friend made it quite clear that they have not. consequences of five more years of the Tories, they are As he and many other Labour Members made clear, still intent on doing more damage. As my hon. Friend this Government have failed on their own terms. In the Member for Nottingham East reminded us in his 2010, the Chancellor said that he would balance the opening speech, and as hon. Members said at various current budget by 2014-15, but in the first nine months points in the debate, five more years would take us back of this financial year, the gap was £74 billion. The to a spending level as a percentage of national income Chancellor has had five years, and he has failed. We that was last seen in the 1930s, before there was an cannot afford to give him another five. That point has NHS, when kids left school at 14 and when life expectancy been made time and again this afternoon. was 60. Let us look at some more evidence. As I have said, the According to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, which Government have missed their current budget target by has been much quoted by Government Members this £74 billion. In addition, the social security bill is £25 billion afternoon, that would necessitate undeliverable and more than planned, and tax credits have risen, subsidising nigh unthinkable cuts of more than £50 billion. It the low-wage economy. The number of working people would, as the IFS said, represent: receiving housing benefit is up two thirds, and tax “Spending cuts on a colossal scale”— receipts are much lower than expected. The Government which would leave— have failed on the deficit, on the debt and on living standards. “the role and shape of the state… changed beyond recognition.” Some Conservative Members seemed rather excited So let us make no mistake: this is not about fixing the about today’s Institute for Fiscal Studies report, but if economy; it is about remodelling the role of the state we look at it in more detail, we can see what it actually This Government’s plans will do real and lasting damage says. It states that people are worse off today than they in the long term, wreaking havoc in public services, were in 2010. As we have heard this afternoon, the real decimating our skills and infrastructure, and undermining problem is that more people are scraping by, from day our competitiveness.—[Interruption.] I hear Government to day and week to week, in poorly paid jobs or on Members shouting, “Rubbish”, but they clearly have exploitative zero-hours contracts. A number of Members not listened to the testimonies of Opposition Members, have described what it is like for their constituents who who so eloquently, passionately and powerfully laid out have to wait for a text message on a Monday morning to the impact of this Government’s policies and actions on tell them whether they will have any paid work that their constituents. week. That is no way for them to live their lives. It does not enable them to have any sort of quality of life or to Mr Newmark rose— balance their household budget. There is nothing in that for the Government to be proud of. Cathy Jamieson: I am not going to give way because A number of Members have eloquently argued that the hon. Gentleman had his opportunity earlier, and I at the heart of the Government’s failure is their ideological wish to make a few more points about what has been obsession with shrinking the state. That seems to be said this afternoon. 1037 Future Government Spending4 MARCH 2015 Future Government Spending 1038

[Cathy Jamieson] Furthermore, does the hon. Lady agree that Labour’s motion today is false? She said that the cuts we have The true scale and nature of that impact cannot be made take us back to the 1930s. In fact, the Office for quantified, because the Government will not set out Budget Responsibility has said that where their billions of social security cuts will fall, so we “by 2019-20, day-to-day spending on public services would be at have to look at past performance as our guide. Those its lowest level since 2002-03 in real terms.” reliant on tax credits to make ends meet will be justly And that was when the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy wary of another five years of the Tories; because of and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) was in the Government. their tax and benefit changes, a typical household is Does she want to celebrate any of those points with me? £891 worse off this year. This Government’s right-wing, doctrinaire approach to the deficit has already done Cathy Jamieson: I thank the Minister for eventually untold damage. Their trickle-down philosophy has been giving way. Although I celebrate young people and the exposed for the sham that it is, and their true aim, as it long-term unemployed finding work in my constituency, ever was, is to pulverise the state and to protect the I hope that she will recognise that for many of them, it wealthy. is zero-hours contracts, low-paid work, and jobs that Labour has a better plan. As last year’s IFS green are not in their chosen careers. They want more from a budget made abundantly clear, there is a huge gulf future Labour Government and they will get it. between this Government’s approach and that outlined by Labour. Our approach is not punitive; it is a common- Andrea Leadsom: I am sure that there is no need for sense approach. It is balanced and proportionate. We me to give way to the hon. Lady again so that she can acknowledge and accept the need to close the deficit congratulate us on the fact that, on average, 75% of and reduce the debt as soon as possible in the next those new jobs are full-time employment. There are Parliament, and we are committed to achieving that, some other facts that Opposition Members might like but we will do it fairly. That is because we think the to celebrate. I am talking about the fact that the UK wealthiest should shoulder the greatest burden. So we was the fastest growing major economy in 2014; that will reverse the £3 billion tax cut for those earning over more than 760,000 private sector businesses have been £150,000, to increase tax revenues and help reduce the created over the past four years; and that employment is deficit fairly; we will introduce a mansion tax on homes up by 1.85 million since the last general election—that worth more than £2 million and crack down on tax is 1.85 million more people with the security of bringing avoidance, investing the proceeds in our NHS; and we home a regular pay packet. She might like to celebrate will tax bank bonuses to create jobs for young people the fact that wages are rising significantly faster than and the long-term unemployed, increase the minimum inflation, and that total pay was up 2.1% in the three wage and incentivise payment of the living wage. All months to 2014. our spending commitments will be fully funded. We will The hon. Lady might like to hear the views of deal with the deficit and the debt, but we will not place international commentators. Mark Carney, the Governor our public services in jeopardy. Our plan will secure the of the Bank of England, said: rising living standards, higher wages and sustainable growth that are needed to fix the economy fairly in a “The sweet spot you want is low, stable predictable inflation. You’re going to get that”— way that benefits everyone, not just a few at the top. in 2015. Is the hon. Lady interested in the view of As my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East President Obama? He said: said at the outset, the stakes could not be higher, and the choice could not be starker. There is a massive gulf “I would note that Great Britain and the United States are two economies that are standing out at a time when a lot of other between this Government’s spending plans and those countries are having problems. So we must be doing something outlined by Labour. The Tories’ austerity agenda has right.” failed. The choice at the election is between five more Perhaps she would like to hear the views of Christine years of Tory failure, wage stagnation and decimation Lagarde who runs the IMF. She says: of the state, or Labour’s progressive and balanced plan for the economy that is sustainable in the long term and “A few countries, only a few, are driving growth.” better for current and future generations. The hon. Lady needs to listen to this. Christine Lagarde is talking about America and the UK. She goes on to say: 5.50 pm “And the UK, where clearly growth is improving, the deficit The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Andrea has been reduced, and where the unemployment is going Leadsom): How dare Opposition Members indulge in down…Certainly from a global perspective this is exactly the sort the sort of scaremongering that we have heard this of result that we would like to see.” afternoon. I am sure that the hon. Member for Kilmarnock There is a word of warning from the OECD. It says: and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) would like to celebrate “Well done so far, Chancellor. But finish the job. Britain has a the fact that youth unemployment in her constituency long term economic plan, but it needs to stick with it.” has gone down by 43% since 2010 and that overall, That is vital and it is what we intend to do. unemployment has gone down by 31% over the same period. Let me turn now to some of the very interesting comments made by colleagues across the House. In particular, my hon. Friend the Member for Braintree Cathy Jamieson rose— (Mr Newmark) gave an excellent talk about the reality of our determination to sort out Labour’s mess. My Andrea Leadsom: I will not give way to the hon. Lady hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale as she did not give way to my hon. Friends. (David Morris) told us why the Government have been 1039 Future Government Spending4 MARCH 2015 Future Government Spending 1040 so good for his constituency and my hon. Friend the We can only have a fair society on the back of a healthy, Member for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal) well-functioning economy and we can only have a healthy, spoke about the importance of competition for economic well-functioning economy on the back of sustainable growth. It is absolutely vital. public finances. My hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough The Government’s long-term economic plan is making (Mr Jackson) contrasted Labour now with Labour in public finances sustainable for the first time in a great 1997, when the party at least had a vision. He also many years. It is delivering economic growth and as the talked about Labour’s spiteful prejudice against success, IFS confirmed today it is raising the standards of living and that is right, Mr Deputy Speaker. My hon. Friend across the country. That is vital. We are finally on the the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver right track and now would be the worst time to change Colvile) pointed out the vital need to invest in infrastructure direction. Let us keep going, let us finish the job and let in his constituency and his fears that Labour would us give the people of this country the fair, strong, prioritise Scottish over English interests. My hon. Friend healthy and vibrant economy that they deserve. the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Question put. Jones) pointed out the nonsense of Labour’s motion and the need to ensure that we in this generation do not The House divided: Ayes 216, Noes 298. leave our debts to our children and our grandchildren. Division No. 168] [5.59 pm Let me point out to Opposition Members what the IFS recently said about Labour: higher Government AYES borrowing acts to support household incomes in the Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Cunningham, Mr Jim short run, but the resulting higher levels of Government Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Cunningham, Sir Tony debt mean that a greater proportion of public spending Alexander, Heidi Curran, Margaret must be allocated to financing debt interest payments in Ali, Rushanara Dakin, Nic the long run and potentially leave the UK more vulnerable Allen, Mr Graham Darling, rh Mr Alistair to large negative shocks in future. Simply borrowing Anderson, Mr David David, Wayne more is just not an option. Ashworth, Jonathan Davidson, Mr Ian The hon. Members for Corby (Andy Sawford) and Austin, Ian Denham, rh Mr John for Preston (Mark Hendrick) both accused this Government Bailey, Mr Adrian Docherty, Thomas of having done nothing for the NHS, but perhaps they Bain, Mr William Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Balls, rh Ed Doran, Mr Frank would like to celebrate with me the fact that the health Banks, Gordon Dowd, Jim budget has increased in real terms every year during this Barron, rh Kevin Doyle, Gemma Parliament, that total health spending has increased by Bayley, Sir Hugh Dromey, Jack £12.7 billion during this Parliament and that on top of Begg, Dame Anne Dugher, Michael that in the autumn statement the Chancellor announced Benn, rh Hilary Durkan, Mark an additional £2 billion for front-line NHS services in Benton, Mr Joe Eagle, Maria England in 2015-16. The vital point about the NHS is Berger, Luciana Elliott, Julie that we cannot have a strong NHS without a strong Betts, Mr Clive Ellman, Mrs Louise economy. Blackman-Woods, Roberta Engel, Natascha Since today we have had a very interesting living Blears, rh Hazel Esterson, Bill standards report from the IFS, I want to give hon. Blenkinsop, Tom Evans, Chris Members some other things to celebrate. The IFS has Blomfield, Paul Farrelly, Paul assessed that average household incomes are now restored Blunkett, rh Mr David Field, rh Mr Frank Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Fitzpatrick, Jim to around pre-crisis levels. That is something to celebrate. Brennan, Kevin Flello, Robert Wages are up 4.1% in real terms for those in continuous Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Flint, rh Caroline employment. That is fantastic. Inflation is at 0.3%, Brown, Mr Russell Flynn, Paul helping family budgets to stretch further. Let us look at Bryant, Chris Fovargue, Yvonne inequality, which is lower than when this Government Buck, Ms Karen Francis, Dr Hywel came to power with, as the IFS has said, pensioner Burden, Richard Gardiner, Barry poverty at near record low levels. That is vital in our Burnham, rh Andy Gilmore, Sheila economy. This Government support fairness and have Byrne, rh Mr Liam Glass, Pat also ensured, as the IFS has today confirmed, that the Campbell, rh Mr Alan Glindon, Mrs Mary richest households have paid the most, with Campbell, Mr Ronnie Godsiff, Mr Roger “larger proportional falls in income for higher-income households.” Caton, Martin Goodman, Helen That is absolutely vital. Inequality has fallen and the Champion, Sarah Greatrex, Tom Clark, Katy Green, Kate biggest burden has been borne by those with the broadest Clarke, rh Mr Tom Greenwood, Lilian shoulders. Clwyd, rh Ann Griffith, Nia It is vital that members of the public who have to Coaker, Vernon Gwynne, Andrew choose very soon who they want to run the Government Coffey, Ann Hain, rh Mr Peter for the next five years know that they have the choice Connarty, Michael Hamilton, Mr David between a Government who have been determined to Cooper, Rosie Hamilton, Fabian ensure fairness and an Opposition who are completely Cooper, rh Yvette Hancock, Mr Mike incoherent and whose lack of facts and plans lead them Crausby, Mr David Hanson, rh Mr David simply to resort to scaremongering in the hope they can Creagh, Mary Harman, rh Ms Harriet persuade people to accept a non-coherent plan from Creasy, Stella Harris, Mr Tom their Front-Benchers. This Government believe in a Cruddas, Jon Healey, rh John fairer society and a fairer society is created by helping Cryer, John Hendrick, Mark the weak get stronger, not by making the strong weaker. Cunningham, Alex Hepburn, Mr Stephen 1041 Future Government Spending4 MARCH 2015 Future Government Spending 1042

Hillier, Meg Owen, Albert Blackwood, Nicola Garnier, Mark Hilling, Julie Pearce, Teresa Boles, Nick Gauke, Mr David Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Perkins, Toby Bone, Mr Peter George, Andrew Hoey, Kate Phillipson, Bridget Bottomley, Sir Peter Gibb, Mr Nick Hopkins, Kelvin Powell, Lucy Bradley, Karen Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Howarth, rh Mr George Qureshi, Yasmin Brady, Mr Graham Glen, John Jamieson, Cathy Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Bray, Angie Goldsmith, Zac Jarvis, Dan Reed, Mr Jamie Brazier, Mr Julian Goodwill, Mr Robert Johnson, Diana Reed, Mr Steve Bridgen, Andrew Gove, rh Michael Jones, Mr Kevan Reeves, Rachel Brine, Steve Graham, Richard Jones, Susan Elan Reynolds, Emma Brokenshire, James Grant, Mrs Helen Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Robertson, John Brooke, rh Annette Gray, Mr James Kane, Mike Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Browne, Mr Jeremy Grayling, rh Chris Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Rotheram, Steve Bruce, Fiona Green, rh Damian Keeley, Barbara Roy, Mr Frank Buckland, Mr Robert Greening, rh Justine Lammy, rh Mr David Roy, Lindsay Burns, Conor Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Lavery, Ian Ruane, Chris Burns, rh Mr Simon Griffiths, Andrew Lazarowicz, Mark Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Burrowes, Mr David Gyimah, Mr Sam Leslie, Chris Sarwar, Anas Burstow, rh Paul Hague, rh Mr William Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Sawford, Andy Burt, rh Alistair Halfon, Robert Lewis, Mr Ivan Seabeck, Alison Burt, Lorely Hames, Duncan Long, Naomi Sharma, Mr Virendra Byles, Dan Hammond, rh Mr Philip Love, Mr Andrew Sheerman, Mr Barry Cairns, Alun Hammond, Stephen Lucas, Ian Sheridan, Jim Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hancock, rh Matthew Mactaggart, Fiona Shuker, Gavin Chishti, Rehman Hands, rh Greg Mahmood, Shabana Skinner, Mr Dennis Chope, Mr Christopher Harper, Mr Mark Malhotra, Seema Slaughter, Mr Andy Clappison, Mr James Harrington, Richard Mann, John Smith, Angela Clark, rh Greg Harris, Rebecca Marsden, Mr Gordon Smith, Nick Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hart, Simon McCabe, Steve Smith, Owen Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Harvey, Sir Nick McCann, Mr Michael Spellar, rh Mr John Coffey, Dr Thérèse Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan McCarthy, Kerry Straw, rh Mr Jack Collins, Damian Hayes, rh Mr John Colvile, Oliver Heald, Sir Oliver McClymont, Gregg Stuart, Ms Gisela McDonagh, Siobhain Cox, Mr Geoffrey Heath, Mr David Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry McDonald, Andy Crabb, rh Stephen Heaton-Harris, Chris Tami, Mark McDonnell, John Crockart, Mike Hemming, John Thomas, Mr Gareth McGovern, Alison Crouch, Tracey Henderson, Gordon Thornberry, Emily McGuire, rh Dame Anne Davey, rh Mr Edward Hendry, Charles McInnes, Liz Timms, rh Stephen Davies, David T. C. Hoban, Mr Mark McKechin, Ann Trickett, Jon (Monmouth) Hollingbery, George McKenzie, Mr Iain Turner, Karl Davies, Glyn Hollobone, Mr Philip Meacher, rh Mr Michael Twigg, Derek Davies, Philip Horwood, Martin Meale, Sir Alan Umunna, Mr Chuka Davis, rh Mr David Howarth, Sir Gerald Mearns, Ian Vaz, rh Keith de Bois, Nick Howell, John Miliband, rh Edward Vaz, Valerie Dinenage, Caroline Hughes, rh Simon Moon, Mrs Madeleine Walley, Joan Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Morden, Jessica Watson, Mr Tom Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunter, Mark Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Watts, Mr Dave Drax, Richard Huppert, Dr Julian Morris, Grahame M. Whitehead, Dr Alan Duddridge, James Hurd, Mr Nick (Easington) Williamson, Chris Duncan, rh Sir Alan Jackson, Mr Stewart Mudie, Mr George Wilson, Phil Dunne, Mr Philip James, Margot Munn, Meg Winnick, Mr David Ellis, Michael Javid, rh Sajid Murphy, rh Mr Jim Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Ellison, Jane Jenkin, Mr Bernard Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jenrick, Robert Murphy, rh Paul Woodcock, John Murray, Ian Elphicke, Charlie Johnson, Gareth Wright, David Nandy, Lisa Eustice, George Johnson, Joseph Wright, Mr Iain Nash, Pamela Evans, Graham Jones, Andrew O’Donnell, Fiona Tellers for the Ayes: Evans, Jonathan Jones, rh Mr David Onwurah, Chi Stephen Doughty and Evans, Mr Nigel Jones, Mr Marcus Osborne, Sandra Graham Jones Evennett, Mr David Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Fabricant, Michael Kirby, Simon NOES Farron, Tim Knight, rh Sir Greg Field, Mark Kwarteng, Kwasi Adams, Nigel Barclay, Stephen Foster, rh Mr Don Lamb, rh Norman Afriyie, Adam Barwell, Gavin Fox,rhDrLiam Lancaster, Mark Aldous, Peter Bebb, Guto Francois, rh Mr Mark Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Amess, Sir David Beith, rh Sir Alan Freeman, George Latham, Pauline Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Bellingham, Mr Henry Freer, Mike Laws, rh Mr David Bacon, Mr Richard Beresford, Sir Paul Fullbrook, Lorraine Leadsom, Andrea Baker, Steve Berry, Jake Fuller, Richard Lee, Jessica Baldry, rh Sir Tony Bingham, Andrew Gale, Sir Roger Lee, Dr Phillip Baldwin, Harriett Blackman, Bob Garnier, Sir Edward Lefroy, Jeremy 1043 Future Government Spending 4 MARCH 2015 1044

Leigh, Sir Edward Sandys, Laura Business without Debate Leslie, Charlotte Scott, Mr Lee Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Selous, Andrew Lewis, Brandon Shapps, rh Grant DELEGATED LEGISLATION Lewis, Dr Julian Sharma, Alok Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Shelbrooke, Alec Mr Speaker: The Clerk at the Table is looking around Lilley, rh Mr Peter Shepherd, Sir Richard anxiously. He is generously suggesting to me that I Lloyd, Stephen Simmonds, rh Mark Lopresti, Jack Simpson, Mr Keith might suggest that, with the leave of the House, we take Loughton, Tim Skidmore, Chris motions 6 to 15 together. [Interruption.] I hear a helpful Luff, Sir Peter Smith, Chloe “Hear, hear” from one well-disposed hon. Member. I Lumley, Karen Smith, Henry am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Julian helpful sedentary chunter. Maude, rh Mr Francis Smith, Sir Robert Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Maynard, Paul Soames, rh Sir Nicholas Order No. 118(6)), McCartney, Karl Soubry, Anna McIntosh, Miss Anne Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Spencer, Mr Mark McPartland, Stephen Stanley, rh Sir John That the draft Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) McVey, rh Esther Stephenson, Andrew (Amendment) Regulations 2015, which were laid before this Menzies, Mark Stevenson, John House on 17 December 2014, be approved. Metcalfe, Stephen Stewart, Bob Miller, rh Maria Stewart, Iain PROCEEDS OF CRIME Mills, Nigel Stewart, Rory That the draft Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 (Investigations: Moore, rh Michael Streeter, Mr Gary Code of Practice) (England and Wales) Order 2015, which was Mordaunt, Penny Stuart, Mr Graham laid before this House on 17 December 2014, be approved. Morgan, rh Nicky Stunell, rh Sir Andrew That the draft Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 (Search, Seizure Morris, Anne Marie Swayne, rh Mr Desmond and Detention of Property: Code of Practice) (England and Morris, James Swinson, Jo Wales) Order 2015, which was laid before this House on 17 December Mosley, Stephen Swire, rh Mr Hugo 2014, be approved. Mowat, David Syms, Mr Robert That the draft Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 (Cash Searches: Mulholland, Greg Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Code of Practice) (England and Wales and Scotland) Order 2015, Mundell, rh David Teather, Sarah which was laid before this House on 17 December 2014, be Munt, Tessa Thornton, Mike approved. Murray, Sheryll Thurso, rh John That the draft Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 (Investigative Murrison, Dr Andrew Timpson, Mr Edward Powers of Prosecutors: Code of Practice) (England and Wales) Neill, Robert Tomlinson, Justin Order 2015, which was laid before this House on 21 January, be Newmark, Mr Brooks Turner, Mr Andrew approved. Newton, Sarah Tyrie, Mr Andrew Nokes, Caroline Uppal, Paul POLICE Norman, Jesse Vaizey, Mr Edward Nuttall, Mr David Vara, Mr Shailesh That the draft Police and Crime Commissioner Elections Order Offord, Dr Matthew Vickers, Martin 2015, which was laid before this House on 15 January, be approved. Opperman, Guy Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Walker, Mr Charles REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE Paice, rh Sir James Walker, Mr Robin That the draft Representation of the People (Ballot Paper) Parish, Neil Wallace, Mr Ben Regulations 2015, which were laid before this House on 13 January, Penning, rh Mike Walter, Mr Robert be approved. Penrose, John Ward, Mr David That the draft Representation of the People (Combination of Percy, Andrew Watkinson, Dame Angela Polls) (England and Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2015, which Perry, Claire Weatherley, Mike were laid before this House on 15 January, be approved. Phillips, Stephen Webb, rh Steve Pickles, rh Mr Eric Wharton, James FINANCIAL SERVICES AND MARKETS Pincher, Christopher Wheeler, Heather Poulter, Dr Daniel Whittaker, Craig That the draft Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Banking Prisk, Mr Mark Wiggin, Bill Reform) (Pensions) Regulations 2015, which were laid before this House on 21 January, be approved. Pugh, John Willetts, rh Mr David Randall, rh Sir John Williams, Mr Mark Redwood, rh Mr John Williamson, Gavin PENSIONS Rees-Mogg, Jacob Willott, rh Jenny That the draft Occupational Pensions Schemes (Charges and Reevell, Simon Wilson, Mr Rob Governance) Regulations 2015, which were laid before this House Reid, Mr Alan Wollaston, Dr Sarah on 4 February, be approved.—(John Penrose.) Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Wright, rh Jeremy Question agreed to. Robertson, rh Sir Hugh Wright, Simon Robertson, Mr Laurence Yeo, Mr Tim Rogerson, Dan Young, rh Sir George BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE Rosindell, Andrew Ordered, Rudd, Amber Tellers for the Noes: Rutley, David Damian Hinds and That, at the sitting on Tuesday 10 March, the provisions of Sanders, Mr Adrian Mel Stride Standing Orders No. 16 (Proceedings under an Act or on European Union documents) and No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply to the Motions in the name of Secretary Theresa May Question accordingly negatived. relating to the draft Counter-Terrorism and Security Act 2015 1045 Business without Debate4 MARCH 2015 Business without Debate 1046

(Authority to Carry Scheme) Regulations 2015, the draft Authority Extension of the Tyne and Wear Metro to Carry Scheme (Civil Penalties) Regulations 2015, the draft Passenger, Crew and Service Information (Civil Penalties) Regulations 2015, the draft Terrorism Act 2000 (Code of Practice for Examining 6.18 pm Officers and Review Officers) Order 2015 and the Counter-Terrorism Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland and Security Act 2015 (Code of Practice for Officers exercising functions under Schedule 1) Regulations 2015 and the Motion in West) (Lab): I am pleased to be able to present this the name of Secretary Patrick McLoughlin relating to the draft petition asking the House to urge the Government to Aviation Security Act 1982 (Civil Penalties) Regulations 2015; the examine the feasibility of extending the Tyne and Wear Speaker shall put the Questions necessary to dispose of those metro to Washington and bringing the Leamside railway Motions not later than three hours after the commencement of back into use. The petitioners and I believe that doing proceedings on the first of those Motions; and proceedings on so would boost jobs and growth in Washington and, those Motions may continue, though opposed, after the moment indeed, the wider region. The petition is along the same of interruption.—(John Penrose.) lines as the one that I submitted in May 2014. As of today, this new petition on my website has been signed PETITIONS by a further 1,736 people. The petition states: The Petition of residents of the United Kingdom, Development of Middleton St George Declares that the Petitioners believe that the extension of the Tyne and Wear Metro to Washington is a vital, yet missing, part 6.15 pm of the region’s transport system, and further that such an extension would make a significant contribution to the economic development Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab): This petition is on of the town. behalf of 1,109 residents of the village of Middleton The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons St George in my constituency who are concerned about urges the Secretary of State for Transport to seriously explore the the unsustainable housing developments potentially taking feasibility of extending the Tyne and Wear Metro to the town of place in the village. Washington, utilising the old Leamside railway line. The petition states: And the Petitioners remain, etc. The Petition of residents of the Sedgefield constituency, [P001445] Declares that the Petitioners object to the over-development of Closure of the Seven Stars public house in Sedgley the village of Middleton St George and further declares that the Petitioners believe that the current planning applications are not sustainable and will have a catastrophic impact on the infrastructure 6.19 pm of the village. Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): I rise to present a The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons petition opposing the closure of the Seven Stars pub in urges the Government to reassess the planning applications for Sedgley. It is a popular, profitable and well run pub at the development of Middleton St George. the heart of community life, but Morrisons want to buy And the Petitioners remain, etc. it from Marston’s to turn it into a supermarket. Led by [P001443] Jon Hurst, Neil and Kate Shorthouse, Sid and Joy Bills, Zoe Huddlestone and Donna Bremner, residents have Treatment for Morquio Syndrome established a brilliant campaign. It has already succeeded in getting the pub listed as an asset of community value, 6.16 pm and it has gathered the names of more than 2,500 local people who do not wish it to close. We want the Government Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): The petition to consider the petition, and bring forward stronger states: measures to ensure that planning law and other regulations The Petition of residents of the Alyn and Deeside constituency, offer such community pubs more protection. Declares that Morquio syndrome (also known as MPS IV) is a The petition states: rare genetic disease; further that Elosulfase, a drug to treat the syndrome, has recently been approved by the European Medicines The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Agency following positive results in the final stages of clinical urges the Government to encourage Marston’s PLC to reconsider trials; further that the drug (in the form of weekly enzyme the closure of the Seven Stars public house, Gospel End Road, replacement treatment) improves sufferers’ energy levels and stamina Sedgley. and therefore increases their independence, further that the effects Following is the full text of the petition: of the drug are hugely beneficial not only to the individuals who have Morquio syndrome but also to their families; further that [The Petition of residents of the Dudley North constituency, funding for the newly licensed enzyme replacement therapy to Declares that the Petitioners are opposed to the proposal treat Morquio syndrome is unlikely to be approved due to cost to close the Seven Stars public house on Gospel End Road saving; and further that the Petitioners believe that the consequences in Sedgley and are opposed to the retail development of patients, including children, such as Gracie in Buckley, not plans for the site. receiving this drug are unbearable. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons The Petitioners therefore request that the House of urges the Department of Health to ensure that individuals who Commons urges the Government to encourage Marston’s have Morquio syndrome are given free access at home to enzyme PLC to reconsider the closure of the Seven Stars public replacement therapy for the treatment of the syndrome. house, Gospel End Road, Sedgley. And the Petitioners remain, etc. And the Petitioners remain, etc.] [P001444] [P001446] 1047 4 MARCH 2015 Financial Services Industry 1048

Financial Services Industry one consequence of that regulation is that it prevents new competitors, a broader spectrum of products and a Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House broader range of providers. do now adjourn.—(John Penrose.) It is no surprise that Metro bank, which I believe is the first new high-street bank to open in this country in 6.20 pm a generation, is so customer focused. We need to do far Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (UKIP): I am grateful to more to ensure that there are more banking start-ups. I the Minister for taking part in this debate, following the will go on to elaborate on what I mean by that. We need previous long and onerous one. to do more to ensure that regulation encourages banking This issue is desperately important: the need for more innovation. We must allow the changes that the internet competition in financial services is urgent. Choice and will bring about in banking to happen and ensure that competition are always and everywhere a good thing. regulation does not inhibit those natural, organic changes. They drive up standards, force innovation and always I am full of praise for the Minister’s magnificent idea manage to give customers better value. In many areas of in her former incarnation about allowing greater portability our lives, we take choice and competition for granted—we of bank accounts. I strongly support that. It is a wonderful assume that they happen naturally—but I simply do not scheme. I would love to hear a bit more about it. To put think that there is enough choice and competition when it a different way, since 2008, the percentage of personal it comes to financial services. In fact, financial services current account holders who switch banks has grown. I in this country have in many respects become something would love to hear the Minister talk about ways in of a cartel, in which the different provider interests do which we can encourage that. I am not certain what the not have any incentive to give the customer what they correct percentage ought to be in a properly competitive want, or to innovate and do better. market, but I imagine that it would be a good deal more Historically, there has been a great loss of diversity in than the current 3%. In any properly competitive market, the financial industry in this country. We have a handful there ought to be quite a high level of customer turnover. of banks in the UK today, but my researcher tells me Should it be closer to 5% or 10%? I would love to hear that there are 417 savings banks in Germany. There has the answer. been a steady process of centralisation over the past few I would also love to hear whether the Minister has generations. Within living memory, cities such as Leeds any sympathy with the idea that the regulatory system or Norwich were financial centres in their own right; needs to encourage more banks to enter the market. today, London predominates. We used to have many The Prudential Regulation Authority has responsibility more types of governance structure in banks and financial for that, but it is making it easier for start-ups—the institutions, with many more credit unions, partnership equivalents of Metro bank and Handelsbanken—to banks, friendly societies and old-style building societies. come into the market? Are we making sure that capital Banking is now dominated by big corporate plcs, which requirements, although important, do not inhibit change? is a model that detaches management from ownership. On a slightly different note, I would love to hear Today, 77% of the current account market is dominated whether we could review the regulatory system not only by the big four banks. to allow new banks, but to allow new kinds of banking. We are all familiar with the idea that we can use our It is interesting to ask whether that is a natural mobile phones to pay for things. That would have process that has happened because of market-driven seemed like science fiction or magic 20 years ago and consolidation. I think it is a consequence of a regulatory perhaps even 10 years ago. Similarly, might we not be system that has created and enforced homogeneity not able to have banking without banks—without those just of providers but of products. It is has led to a costly institutions that require big buildings and big system in which compliance is elevated above the need bonuses? Might it not be possible to have banking for customer service. I cannot help noticing that growth through a company like O2, Google or Facebook? in many financial institutions and businesses has happened Those organisations have a huge customer base and through acquisition, rather than through increasing the know a great deal about their customers. Could we have number of happy customers. a regulatory system that would allow a Google, a Facebook It is worth asking whether regulation has proved to or an O2 to get a banking licence if they wanted to? It is be a barrier to entry in financial services. We commonly key that if a company like that wants to acquire a hear the complaint that people with money to invest are banking licence, we make sure it is able to do so. looking for a way to save it with a good rate of interest, I fear that the regulatory system we have is very good and at the same time it is often said that businesses at preventing new competition. That is one reason why complain that they cannot get credit. In a normal the existing players tend to have such a close, symbiotic market, the former would be put together with the latter relationship with the regulator. There tends to be a and those who want to lend at a competitive rate of revolving door between the regulator and the big corporate return would lend to those who want to borrow. Might banks. I fear that corporate gigantism is a product of it be that something about the regulatory system in this corporatist regulation. The regulatory system that we country is preventing that from happening? have is very prescriptive and detailed. It talks not simply The old Financial Services Authority issued some about the outcome, but about the process that needs to 6,000 pages of regulation between its inception and the be followed. I am not sure that that is a good way of financial crash. It is fair to say that the new regulators regulating financial services. We must bear it in mind are carrying on with the blizzard of regulations. There that Northern Rock was a highly regulated institution. are thousands of pages of compliance. Ultimately, I The model in this country encourages financial institutions suspect that that is an attempt to restrain the worst to create large compliance departments and to acquire excesses of some aspects of fractional reserve banking armies of compliance officers, but those people often and to mitigate risk by decree or fiat. I wonder whether fail to ask the most basic questions about reserve ratios. 1049 Financial Services Industry4 MARCH 2015 Financial Services Industry 1050

[Douglas Carswell] that the insurance model ought to be an inherently stable model in the financial industry. It is no coincidence In financial services there is an inevitable correlation that during the financial crisis insurance companies between risk and reward, and rather like the laws of tended to be pretty stable, which is because they tend to gravity, if we try to create a regulatory system that have a steady flow of income from premiums. Solvency defies the correlation between risk and reward, ultimately II has the effect of imposing capital requirements on it will become unstuck. The basis for the investment insurance firms, which would favour investment in sovereign industry is that correlation between risk and reward, yet bonds over corporate debt. I fear that would mean that I fear—particularly in the fund management industry—that there was less capital for companies—less choice, less some regulators try in effect to stipulate the investment competition and more homogenous products in the EU. mix, which has a big impact on that correlation between The second directive having unintended consequences risk and reward. is the markets and financial instruments directive II. The Building Societies Association and the Association Again, it aims to reduce risk, but as so often when one of Financial Mutuals have made sensible suggestions tries to remove the correlation between risk and reward about various aspects of our regulation, and interestingly through fiat, all sorts of unintended consequences are they seem to recognise that our regulatory system prevents created. I fear that this will hinder the allocation of competition—it favours big corporate plcs and established capital in markets in Europe. It will hinder the innovation players, and it does not help the mutual funds. They in financial products. have come up with proposals to remove restrictive barriers The name of the alternative investment fund managers to raising capital from mutuals, to change the regulation directive implies that left to their own devices there system that favours big corporate plcs, and to encourage would be alternatives. I think the directive would inhibit market diversity. I would love to hear whether the the development of alternatives: the development of Minister has sympathy with those ideas, and if so what choice and competition in the financial markets. It we could try to change. The Competition and Markets would make it more likely that there would be homogeneity Authority sounds like a wonderful idea—it is a wonderful in the market place. I would be interested to hear if the name: who could be against it? It investigates cases Minister thinks that EU rules will help or hinder the where competition rules have been breached, and rightly development of competition in UK financial markets. so. Might it be, however, that Government regulation In conclusion, in most aspects of our lives we take and Government fiat is doing more to restrict competition choice and competition for granted. We take it for than any of the providers? granted when we go shopping, when we buy groceries At various times in recent years there have been and shop around for holidays and entertainment. It is instances of alleged mis-selling in the financial sector, that choice and competition that I think makes life and people have been sold products on the basis of better, that improves standards and makes the world misinformation or facts that they regarded as today so much better than it was a generation ago. We misinformation. A constituent of mine was recently need to extend choice and competition into the financial involved in the interest rate swap mis-selling scandal. markets too, and into financial services. Ever since the That is not the first incident, and I fear it will not be the financial crisis, free market popular capitalism has been last. Every time there is an incident of mis-selling in the given a bad name. Free market capitalism needs to be financial industry in this country, we ask about changing given a good name again. the rules and regulations, and rightly so, but we should One key to doing that is to recognise that sometimes not lose sight of the fact that the best regulator ought to in financial services in this country there has been a be choice and competition. Happy customers ought to cartel. One does not have to be Russell Brand or a leftist ensure that mis-selling does not happen, and behaviour to recognise that there is a cartel in the financial services that leads to mis-selling will be much less likely in a industry. We need to respond to that by breaking open market focused on customer satisfaction, rather than the cartel, by allowing choice and competition and, in simply compliance. We should not ask, “Are we able to doing so, giving free market capitalism, the honest do this?”, but “Does the customer want us to do this?” market and the financial service sector in this country a I am afraid it is impossible for us to consider competition good name again. in the financial industry without considering the EU I am sure the Minister agrees with me on this and I dimension—it is a sad reflection of how hollowed out will be fascinated to hear what she thinks we need to do our democracy has become that Ministers can really to ensure that we have proper choice and proper competition only reiterate the EU’s position on many of these issues. in our financial services industry once again. A couple of weeks ago Lord Hill issued a Green Paper on the capital markets union—another incident of further Mr Speaker: I call the Minister. integration—and the Juncker Commission is pushing for standardisation in European capital markets. On the Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (UKIP) rose— face of it, the aim is noble and it is a good ambition to remove the systemic risk in European capital markets. Mr Speaker: Order. That would be the normal course However, I fear that it has led to an alphabet soup of of events. It is possible for another hon. Member to regulation in the form of the European system of financial speak if there is time to do so, but ordinarily that is on supervision, and to unintended consequences. I will the understanding that the Member concerned has the therefore touch on three rules that I think introduce agreement of the sponsoring Member and of the Minister. such unintended consequences. I am not sure whether the Minister’s agreement has The first is the solvency II directive, which was enacted been sought. If the Minister were content for the hon. in January this year and regulates insurance companies Gentleman to speak, I think he would intend to do so across the EU. It is important for the House to understand extremely briefly. Is the Minister content? 1051 Financial Services Industry4 MARCH 2015 Financial Services Industry 1052

The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Andrea required to bail out the banks, which I fear has reduced Leadsom) indicated assent. the competition we were otherwise seeing from that source. Mr Speaker: The Minister is an accommodating Minister, Thirdly, my hon. Friend spoke about the limits and and therefore a suitable expression of gratitude I know restrictions on the current account market. I am also will be forthcoming from the hon. Member for Rochester concerned about the small and medium-sized enterprise and Strood, Mr Mark Reckless. market. A constituency case concerning the potential mis-selling of interest rate swaps and a company called Mark Reckless: Thank you, Mr Speaker. May I first Port Medway Marina has taught me that a small business clarify whether the time limit of half an hour or 7.30 pm can become so entangled with a bank that, when it gets applies? It is not entirely clear from the Order Paper. into a dispute with the bank, even if over only one aspect of their relationship, it can be difficult to disentangle Mr Speaker: The answer is very straightforward: from the bank and move to another one. That is a limit until 7.30 pm. That is the factual position, but the norm on competition that I fear banks too often exploit. If in these circumstances is for agreement to contribute to the Minister could say something about that, I would be have been achieved in advance. In this instance, in very grateful. I concur with my hon. Friend’s comments which the Minister is graciously agreeing to accommodate about her record in the Treasury. the hon. Gentleman—and it is a case of graciously agreeing—luck should not be pushed. I am always Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for happy to hear the hon. Gentleman in an orderly way. his courtesy. On that basis, we will now hear his thoughts briefly. 6.42 pm 6.38 pm The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Andrea Leadsom): I congratulate the hon. Member for Clacton Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (UKIP): Thank (Douglas Carswell) on securing this debate. I agree with you, Mr Speaker. I have no intention of speaking at any him and the hon. Member for Rochester and Strood great length or keeping the Minister from her dinner or (Mark Reckless) that competition and choice are the from her very important duties. bedrocks of a free market economy—something that My hon. Friend the Member for Clacton (Douglas the Government have sought to promote at every Carswell) talked about competition and breaking up a opportunity, and nowhere more so than in the financial cosy cartel in banking. I have heard him use similar services sector. Increasing competition means customers language about our political system. I think there is have more choice about how they bank and who they some commonality between what we see in banking and bank with, and it means that banks have to work harder what we see in politics. I would like to add to his to provide the best possible products and services. remarks on solvency II. As well as the risk of starving More competition will also help to ensure that the corporate sectors of credit they might otherwise receive, industry evolves in a way that meets customers’ wants I have a concern that if there is a regulatory push to and needs—and, indeed, predicts them—and supports force insurers to hold Government bonds, particularly and harnesses innovation in financial services. It drives when they are required to hold those only within the home the point that banks work for their customers, eurozone for certain purposes, that actually may and not the other way round. Perhaps if that point had increase risk relative to holding diversified global corporate been driven home a little more often in the past, we bonds. would not have had some of the mis-selling scandals I want to make three brief points. First, the barriers that have plagued the industry over the past decade. I to entry in financial services, particularly banking, so agree that competition is a key factor in improving often stem from regulation—in banking, there are minimum behaviour and tackling wrong-doing. requirements in terms of assets, time and other things—and Choice and competition are important across the I credit the Minister, the Treasury and our regulators spectrum of financial services, be it banking, insurance with reducing them in recent years. Will she give an or asset management, and the Government have placed assessment of how that has worked? Have we managed competition and choice at the heart of all our policies to relax the requirements without problems developing, relating to financial services, but I want to focus today and might it be possible to relax them further? on competition in personal current accounts and SME Secondly, the extent of competition in banking seems banking. The hon. Members will be aware of the often to be the product of the state of the monetary Competition and Markets Authority’s investigation into cycle, whether globally or in a particular country. In the competition in these markets and that the Government late 1980s, we saw what happened with the Japanese wholeheartedly welcome this investigation. We set up banks that kindly built Eurotunnel for us but made the CMA precisely to take action to improve competition enormous losses in doing so. In the 2000s, we saw the where required. explosion of credit, and particularly in this country, I want to take this opportunity to make clear the from 2001, we saw what happened in the inter-bank Government’s commitment to increasing competition credit market and across Europe. In some ways, there in the market for personal current accounts and SME were positives to that—for example, greater cross-border banking, as in all areas of financial services. We must competition between banks in Europe—but it was never again get into a situation where the banks do not driven by over-optimism about the eurozone and the seem to be accountable to the people they exist to serve. state of monetary policy. Since we have retreated from When we entered office in 2010, at the height of the that position, if anything the euro appears to have financial crisis, we inherited a banking system that was driven banks back to national markets, and it is the broken. It all too easily let the big high street banks individual sovereign—the taxpayer—who has been consolidate their stranglehold on the market and was 1053 Financial Services Industry4 MARCH 2015 Financial Services Industry 1054

[Andrea Leadsom] as part of its work on strategy-setting in the payments industry, once it formally opens for business on 1 April. far too relaxed about taxpayers picking up the bill when This Government have introduced legislation to enable those same banks needed bailing out. There was not banks and building societies to introduce “cheque imaging”, enough diversity and innovation, and there was certainly which will speed up cheque clearing times in the UK. not enough competition. Ultimately, the customer, the Again, that is customer-focused and customer-friendly taxpayer, lost out. action, so that people will in future be able to photograph By making it a key part of the Government’s long-term a cheque and send it to the bank using a smartphone economic plan to drive far more competition in banking, rather than having to take it into a branch. We saw the we have sought to rebuild the UK banking sector and to introduction in 2014 of mobile payment applications ensure that customers get a better deal. I have often such as Paym, which allows customers to transfer money used a phrase I coined myself—that competition should quickly, easily and securely, using only their mobile trump regulation. I genuinely mean that in the sense phone number as identification. That is the first thing— that regulation can go so far in ensuring that banks that putting the customer at the heart of innovation. were previously too big to fail are less likely to fail in Secondly and very importantly, we have strengthened future, but the real disinfectant is competition. That is the regulatory regime and put competition at its heart. what keeps banks honest, keeps them on their toes, We have created two new stronger regulators—the Financial keeps them lying awake at night wondering what is Conduct Authority and the Prudential Regulatory happening to their customers. Authority—each with statutory objectives to promote So what have this Government done? First and very greater competition; and we have legislated for the new importantly, we have sought to empower customers, Payment Systems Regulator to make sure that payment shifting the balance of power away from the bank and systems will operate in future in the best interests of towards the customer. By driving the delivery of the customers and on fair terms for new challenger banks. seven-day switching service, we have made it easier for Thirdly, we have made it easier for new players to customers and businesses to switch banks quickly and enter the market and compete with incumbents. That reliably. That means that they are more able to hold means not just challenger banks, but alternative finance their banks to account and, if necessary, to vote with providers. We have pressed the regulators to make it their feet. quicker and less expensive for potential new banks to The hon. Member for Clacton asked what switching get authorised. About 20 banks are currently going levels should be. At the moment, it is still true to say through the new mobilisation process, and several of that one is more likely to divorce twice than to change them hope to enter the banking market within a year. one’s bank account, which is an extraordinary fact. I That is big news. have done neither—neither divorced nor moved my As the hon. Gentleman pointed out, Metro Bank’s bank account, so I suppose I am a statistic waiting to full banking licence, which was granted in 2010, was the happen—and, hopefully, I will move my bank account! first to be granted in the United Kingdom for more Switching levels should clearly be significantly higher than 100 years. That is extraordinary, but under the than that. I hope that will happen through the measures present Government five brand-new banking licences we are taking, and there is already evidence that switching have already been granted, and there will be many levels have increased. more. We are seeing old and new brand names, such as TSB, Virgin, Metro and Aldermore, and Atom is on the Very excitingly from April this year—both UKIP way. Each of those banks has a different customer Members will be delighted to hear this—the Government’s offering, which is very important for competition purposes. “midata initiative” will enable customers to review how As the hon. Gentleman suggested, there may be others—not they use their personal current accounts, and they will just traditional banks as we know them, but the likes of receive for the first time a detailed comparison of which Google, Apple and other tech firms. bank is best for them. They will be able to download a year’s worth of transactions, upload to a comparison We have supported and promoted the expansion of website and see which bank would have been better to the credit union movement, and have helped mutuals to use, bearing the transaction flow in mind. It is vital to raise new capital for their own expansions. We have be able to differentiate between one bank and another supported the growth of peer-to-peer lending by allowing bank. such loans to be included in individual savings accounts, and by channelling investment from the British Business As the hon. Member for Clacton said, I have taken a Bank towards peer-to-peer lending. Those are small but keen personal interest in an idea that could bring even important and fast-growing markets. We have supported greater benefit to customers by going further and equity crowdfunding by, for example, offering tax incentives introducing full account number portability. This is a to investors who take the risk of investing in smaller potential game-changer, and I continue to explore the companies through the enterprise investment scheme. benefits it could bring and the different ways it could be We are legislating to open up access to credit data to implemented. challenger banks, and requiring the big banks to pass As the House will be aware, I wrote to the chief on the details of small and medium-sized enterprises executives of the Financial Conduct Authority and the whose loan applications they reject to alternative, willing Payment Systems Regulator to ask them to consider finance providers. That will help to level the playing these issues as part of their review into the effectiveness field between established banks and alternative providers, of the seven-day current account switch service. I look and will make it easier for SMEs to secure finance. forward to hearing the outcomes of their review in the We have also have done something on which neither very near future—within the next week or so—and the the hon. Member for Clacton nor the hon. Member for PSR will no doubt be keen to take these conclusions on Rochester and Strood focused particularly, but which is 1055 Financial Services Industry4 MARCH 2015 Financial Services Industry 1056 very important. We have opened the door to innovation competition. The one thing that I can say specifically is in banking and financial services to help to make the that the capital markets union initiative stands to benefit UK the global centre for FinTech, which is a vital and United Kingdom financial services enormously by opening fast-growing part of the financial services sector. We are new markets and making access to finance for small already seeing the start of a sea change in the way in businesses in our economy far easier. We are engaging which people access and manage their money. It is now with that initiative within the EU as hard and as fast as possible to send money overseas at the touch of a we can in order to guarantee real benefits throughout button, and much more cheaply than before. It is possible the EU, but particularly for British businesses and to lend directly to small businesses in the local community British competition. online, and it will be possible to clear a cheque by sending an online image to the bank. The Government have done much to increase competition, but there is more to be done. I shall read However, that is just the start. The Blackett review, the Blackett review of FinTech and await the outcome which was set up by the Government, will look into of the investigation by the Competition and Markets where FinTech will lead us over the next decade, and Authority with great interest. how the United Kingdom can reap the maximum rewards. We have already started to position ourselves. In August I thank the hon. Member for Clacton again for last year, the Chancellor announced an additional securing this important debate. I hope that it has given £100 million of British Business Bank funding to support him some confidence that the Government are doing all FinTech and a major programme of work on digital that they can to facilitate better competition and choice currencies. And we have now concluded a call for evidence in financial services. on how to deliver an open standard for application Question put and agreed to. programming interfaces in UK banking. That will enable FinTech firms, challenger banks and alternative finance providers to use bank data, on behalf of customers, in a variety of helpful and innovative ways. 6.54 pm The hon. Member for Clacton raised the question of whether European Union rules helped or hindered effective House adjourned.

287WH 4 MARCH 2015 Affordable Housing 288WH

up housing benefit bills in the long term. The number of Westminster Hall affordable homes provided last year fell to its lowest level in nine years, and was 26% below the 2009-10 level. Wednesday 4 March 2015 The number of homes built for social rent is at its lowest level for at least 20 years, and is falling. [MR JAMES GRAY in the Chair] Affordable Housing Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend agree that this is primarily driven not by Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting finance but by ideology? Leaving social tenants in insecure be now adjourned.—(Dr Thérèse Coffey.) properties, raising their rents, failing to invest in properties and failing to accommodate people on the basis of 9.30 am need—all that comes from policies, many of them dreamed Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): It is a up by the previous council in Hammersmith and Fulham. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. Is that not a deplorable way to treat people in housing When the Government introduced the hated bedroom need in the 21st century? tax, the headline in the Nottingham Post was, “Nowhere to go”. It was spot on, of course. Thanks to the Lilian Greenwood: My hon. Friend is right. The Government’s dismal record on affordable housing, Government seem to have no interest in the idea of thousands of people are being forced out of their social homes. homes or into poverty by the cruel and ill conceived bedroom tax, and millions of people cannot buy the Crisis noted that in England last year, just 7,458 affordable homes they want, or find decent-quality affordable or and social rented homes were completed, compared social homes at all. I do not claim that the shortage of with 9,026 in the previous year. Let us judge the Government high-quality affordable housing started in 2010, but the by their own standards. In 2010, the right hon. Member Government’s policies have made the situation worse, for Welwyn Hatfield, then Housing Minister, told the not better. Communities and Local Government Committee that Let me begin by setting out how the Government got building more homes than Labour it so wrong. Their first decision on taking office was to “is the gold standard upon which we shall be judged.” cut the affordable housing budget by 60%, leading to a collapse in affordable house building, and they consistently Given that the Government have presided over the watered down affordable housing requirements on lowest levels of house building in peacetime since the developers. The Prime Minister rushed out the latest 1920s, I suggest that they will be found wanting. House proposals this week in a desperate bid to appeal to building in every year under this Government has been first-time buyers, but as Gavin Smart, interim chief lower than in any year under Labour. There were executive of the Chartered Institute of Housing, said, 118,000 home completions last year; we are building the Tory plan fewer than half the homes needed to keep pace with demand. “smacks of building for one group of people at the expense of another.” Affordable housing is not just an issue for tenants, As usual with the Government, those on lower incomes although I will return to the issues faced by those are set to lose out, but that should not be a surprise. In renting their home later. Many of my constituents want London, where the housing crisis is at its most severe, to own their own home, but if they think that the Tory the Mayor has, in his London plan, banned Labour party will help them to achieve their dreams, they will councils from insisting on building genuine social homes be sorely disappointed. Home ownership is at its lowest through section 106 agreements, against the guidance of level for 30 years, and there are now 205,000 fewer the planning inspector but with the approval of the home owners than there were at the previous election. Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government. To put it another way, in 2009-10, 67.4% of households Even developers have warned of the dangers of weakening owned their own home, compared with 63.3% now. For the affordable homes requirements; the Westminster the first time, home ownership in the UK is below the Property Association described the idea as “deeply flawed”. European Union average for the pre-accession 15 countries. My constituency was one of the first hit by the The number of people with a mortgage has declined, Government’s cuts, when a £200 million redevelopment and is now lower, for the first time in more than 30 years, of the Meadows, one of the most deprived neighbourhoods than the number of households living mortgage-free. in the country, was scrapped. Nottingham city council Rising house prices and the requirement for larger had been working closely with local residents for three deposits, in combination with low wages and insecure years to devise the plans to transform their estate by employment, is pushing home ownership out of the demolishing unsuitable and unpopular properties and reach of many people. The National Housing Federation’s replacing them with new homes to meet existing and report, “Broken Market, Broken Dreams”, shows that future need, including extra care homes for elderly with the average house price in England having risen to tenants. The then Minister, the right hon. Member for more than £250,000, the average first-time buyer needs Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps), promised to visit the to find a deposit of £30,000—almost 10 times as much area to see for himself the issues left unaddressed, but as was needed by those buying a house in the early that was just another broken promise. 1980s, or when I bought my first house in Nottingham 21 years ago. If the Government are allowed to continue, we could sadly see the demise of genuinely affordable social Two thirds of first-time buyers rely on financial help housing. Their affordable rent model is anything but from their parents, a figure that has doubled in the past affordable to families on low incomes, and it is pushing five years. It is easy to see the disproportionate impact 289WH Affordable Housing4 MARCH 2015 Affordable Housing 290WH

[Lilian Greenwood] that figure had risen to £41.6 million—a staggering 85% rise. More people are using the private rented sector, on those from poorer families. In the past, they may and they need financial help to do so. have been able to get on the housing ladder; now, they could be locked out of home ownership forever. For the Of course, for many people in our city, the private sake of the next generation, we need to tackle the rented sector is not a positive choice. With more than housing crisis, and the Government’s plans are simply 10,000 households on the waiting list for social housing, not up to the task. Their schemes have not helped the private rented sector is simply the only option anywhere near the number they claimed they would. available. Nottingham still has a larger-than-average The Prime Minister claimed that New Buy would help social housing stock, and possibly as a consequence, a 100,000 on to the property ladder, but it has actually larger proportion of the population want to live in a helped less than 6% of that target. council or housing association home. However, demand outstrips supply. The problem is particularly acute in It is questionable whether a one-size-fits-all approach some parts of the city, such as Clifton, where there is a is appropriate. Local housing market conditions and high demand for social housing and a large number of local demographics are important factors, and there is social homes have been lost as a result of tenants huge variation between and within regions. In Nottingham, exercising their right to buy. average house price are well below the national median, although so are wages, and we do not suffer the problems For families with children, the lack of long-term found in London and the south-east, where there are certainty about their housing is a particular worry. For large numbers of buy-to-let, or buy-to-leave-empty, working parents who have settled their children into investors. local schools, built up support networks and got child Help to Buy has not been taken up in large numbers care arrangements in place, six-month tenancies and because those on middle incomes have alternatives, so it the possibility of significant rent rises do not offer the is those on lower incomes who are still missing out. In stability and certainty that they need. contrast, right to buy has increased significantly since the higher discounts were introduced in April 2012. It The difficulties have been exacerbated by the bedroom benefits those who are able to participate, but makes life tax, which affects more than 3,000 households living in even more difficult for those struggling to find somewhere Nottingham’s council-owned social housing and hundreds to live. Ministers promised at the time that the additional more in housing association homes. The policy penalises homes sold would be replaced one for one, but that poorer households, who are forced to cut back on simply has not happened. essential items to pay their rent, go into debt or build up arrears that put the future of their tenancy at risk. Across the country, more than 26,000 social homes Some, who genuinely have rooms to spare, would be have been sold in the past three years, but according to prepared to downsize to escape this iniquitous measure, the Department’s own figures, only 2,298 homes were but there simply are not the homes to move into, with started by councils between April 2012 and September an acute shortage of smaller properties in some areas, 2014. This month’s Inside Housing reveals that the particularly two-bedroom houses. Department’s original claim of 4,795 had to be revised down after it was challenged by the Chartered Institute As the Post predicted, some people are left with of Housing. Even the most recent figures from December nowhere to go. According to “The homelessness take the number of starts only to a total of 2,712. A monitor”—independent research commissioned by Crisis further 3,285 homes were sold between October and and the Joseph Rowntree Foundation—the combination December, up 15% on the previous quarter. The problem of a lack of affordable homes, the recession and is getting worse, not better. cuts to social security has led to substantial rises in With their route to home ownership blocked, more homelessness in recent years. Department for Communities and more people are living with their parents into their and Local Government statistics show that in 2014, 20s and 30s, and only 36% of 25 to 34-year-olds now over 111,000 people in England made an application to own their own home. With the social housing stock their council to state that they were homeless—an increase being depleted, it is no surprise that the proportion of of 26% in four years—and “The homelessness monitor” young people renting in the private sector has risen to found that the true figure was even higher than the 48%. Overall, a record 11 million people—one in five of statutory figures indicate. Rough sleeping has become the population—are now living in the private rented noticeably worse, rising 55% in the last four years and sector. That is an increase of 2.5 million since 2010, and by 79% in London. it includes 1.5 million families with children. Once people are homeless, the lack of affordable Rents rose across England by an average of 8% last homes is keeping them trapped. It is increasingly difficult year, according to the English housing survey. That has to access hostel accommodation, because there is a lack not only had an impact on household incomes, although of affordable rented properties for current occupants to rising rents are undoubtedly contributing to the cost of move into. Even for those tenants who choose to live in living crisis for many families. It goes to the heart of the private rented housing—for many students in Nottingham, Government’s failure to reduce the housing benefit bill, that is the case—there are real concerns about quality as more people—particularly working people—are forced and suitability. Student unions at the university of to rely on state support to rent in the private sector. Nottingham, Nottingham Trent university and New Although rents in Nottingham have not risen as College Nottingham recently published their “Notts rapidly as in other parts of the country, there has Student Manifesto 2015”. In it, they identified student nevertheless been a dramatic increase in the cost of housing among their top-four priorities, subsidising private sector rents. In 2009-10, local housing allowance payments totalled £22.5 million. By 2013-14, “with rogue landlords and poor conditions a threat to wellbeing.” 291WH Affordable Housing4 MARCH 2015 Affordable Housing 292WH

Problems highlighted range from a failure to meet basic commitment to build 200,000 homes a year by 2020, safety standards to poor maintenance and issues relating and sets a course for doubling the number of first-time to personal safety and security. International students buyers by 2025. reported particular concerns. We will give local authorities the powers and resources Of course, positive initiatives in the sector have been to build the homes that their communities need, ensuring put in place since 1997; I particularly highlight action that all councils produce a plan for home building in to tackle homelessness and rough sleeping. Statutory their area and allocate sufficient land for development homelessness fell by 70% under Labour, from 135,000 in to meet the needs of local people. We will provide 2003-04 to 40,000 in 2009-10. We also took action to powers for groups of local authorities to collaborate improve housing standards. Having inherited a £19 billion and form Olympic-style new homes corporations to repairs backlog, we brought 1.5 million social homes up build on designated land at pace. We will implement to a decent standard through the decent homes programme, measures to drive competition in the house building including by fitting over 700,000 new kitchens, 525,000 industry, increase capacity and expand the number of new bathrooms and over 1 million new central heating small firms. We will introduce a help-to-build scheme to systems at a cost of £33 billion. underwrite loans to small builders to get them building again and fast-track planning on small sites. We will set Locally, Nottingham’s arm’s length management out Treasury guarantees and financial incentives to organisation, Nottingham City Homes, is celebrating unlock sustainable garden city development, and we its 10th year, and I am proud that tenants are more will give local areas real powers to deliver garden cities satisfied than ever with the quality of their home, value through garden city development corporations, based for money and the repairs and maintenance service. on updated new towns legislation. Over the last decade, the proportion of non-decent Labour councils are already building twice as many council homes in Nottingham has fallen from 44% to affordable homes as Tory-run authorities. A Labour around 2.6%, and with work still being carried out to Government will make housing a bigger priority for improve the stock—more than 26,000 homes—that figure capital investment in the next Parliament. could be close to zero within weeks. Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): I am sure that I have spoken before in the House about the difference the hon. Lady will be aware, through her connection that the decent homes work has made to the lives of the with Nottinghamshire, that the Conservative-controlled people I represent, and I pay particular tribute to the Newark and Sherwood district council has built a number tenants and leaseholders who, in 2010, took their campaign of properties in Ollerton and Edwinstowe. In fact, on to the front door of Downing street to secure continued Friday, I will cut the ribbon in Bilsthorpe on some new funding for that vital work, which has improved the properties that have been developed through Newark health and well-being of thousands of families in our and Sherwood Homes. city. Lilian Greenwood: I welcome any new developments Nottingham City Homes and Nottingham city council of that sort, but things could be so much better. We will have also led the way in improving the energy efficiency make better use of existing resources through a move to of homes in our city. Again, I have spoken many times single-pot funding, and by refocusing public expenditure about the greener housing scheme; despite the Government’s on house building over time, going from benefits to energy policy changes, which threaten to wreck our bricks. We will make fuller use of provision for Government plans, that scheme has already delivered solid-wall insulation guarantees, including for social housing, and encourage to thousands of families in Nottingham across all tenures, more innovative use of public land. We will also introduce cutting fuel bills, providing warm and comfortable homes a stronger definition of affordable housing in the planning for residents and improving the appearance of our system and tougher rules for assessing the viability on estates. housing developments. We will reverse the Government’s I am delighted that Nottingham city council and changes, which have watered down affordable homes Nottingham City Homes are building new homes and obligations. replacing some of the less popular and difficult-to-maintain We will also introduce a fairer deal for private renters. stock, as the shadow Minister has seen for herself. We will give tenants in the private rented sector security Some 166 homes have already been completed, and and peace of mind by legislating for three-year tenancies, there are plans for a further 327. Small disused sites, giving them a stable home and landlords the confidence such as derelict garages, have provided opportunities to invest. We will end excessive rent increases and ban for redevelopment, and some of these homes, including rip-off letting agent fees for tenants. We will drive up five on Eddleston drive in Clifton, were built using standards by introducing a national register of landlords, NCH’s own labour force, boosting local employment and make it easier for local authorities to introduce and providing apprenticeships. Housing associations, licensing schemes. We will bring an end to cold homes including Nottingham Community Housing Association, by setting a new target to upgrade the energy efficiency asra Housing Group and Derwent Living, have also of properties in the private rented sector, and, of course, built new houses, mainly on sites provided by the council, we will scrap the hated bedroom tax. With just 64 days but we could do so much more if we had a Labour to go, those vital changes to our broken housing market Government with a real plan to tackle the housing cannot come soon enough. crisis. That is the choice that voters can make in 64 days’ 9.49 am time. Mr Mark Prisk (Hertford and Stortford) (Con): I Labour has endorsed the comprehensive plan set out draw the House’s attention to my entry in the Register by Sir Michael Lyons’ housing review, the first of its of Members’ Financial Interests: I am an adviser to kind in a generation. It sets out how we will meet our Essential Living. 293WH Affordable Housing4 MARCH 2015 Affordable Housing 294WH

[Mr Mark Prisk] sustained. That is why I pushed for and, I am pleased to say, secured both a 10-year rental policy and long-term I congratulate the hon. Member for Nottingham housing guarantees from the Treasury to underpin the South (Lilian Greenwood) on securing the debate. Ensuring investment. That means that rental policy is now set all that people can afford to live in a decent home is one of the way through to 2025, and that gives the housing the top issues for many of our constituents, and rightly associations and their lenders the confidence to build so. Despite the suggestion that all the evils in housing more and for longer. started in May 2010, the reality is that our housing markets have been dysfunctional for more than 25 years, Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): My hon. so we have built far too few homes, rents and prices have Friend is making a very powerful speech. I completely risen, and thus we have this issue of affordability. That agree with the point that he has just made, and wonder means that when the current Government came to whether he could extend the same logic to councils. As a power in 2010, they inherited a real mess. For my result of our self-financing initiative, councils can now money, the classic illustration of that is the loss of some start to look forward and build more homes. Does he 420,000 affordable homes under the last Labour agree that we need to give them long-term opportunities Administration. to borrow more money, perhaps by lifting some of the Since 2010, good progress has been made, so during caps placed on them, so that they can plan well into the this Parliament we should see the fall in the number of future for more council-built houses, too? affordable homes reversed and an increase of some 170,000. Just as importantly—I am sure that my hon. Mr Prisk: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend’s Friend the Minister will want to refer to this—the point, which is that we need everyone, in both the public Government are now seeking to accelerate the increase and the private sectors, to engage and that will mean in the number of affordable homes so that in just a that we need to consider greater flexibility for local three-year period we should see 165,000 additional authorities. I will come on to that later if I can. affordable homes being built. That would, I think, With regard to housing associations, now that we represent the fastest rate of building in this sector for have the long-term framework, we need to hold them to 25 years. their commitment. Many are performing well, but some are not. I hope that I may encourage the Minister to Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) challenge those housing associations that could and (Lab): The hon. Gentleman is rightly focusing on the should be building many more homes. I will also encourage idea of affordability. Can he help us by giving his the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Wolverhampton definition of affordability? Does he agree with the Mayor North East (Emma Reynolds), should she cross the of London’s definition of affordability, which is that Chamber and take office in May—heaven forfend, from 80% of market rent is affordable, or does he agree with my point of point—not to tinker and meddle with that me that that is simply nonsense? long-term rental programme, because the result of that would be inconsistency in policy. It would take everyone’s Mr Prisk: It actually relates to the ratio depending on eye away from delivering actual homes for our constituents. where someone lives and what their wages are. One As politicians, we have a habit of wanting to tinker and problem for our constituents is that we talk about meddle, but consistency is important. affordable housing with a capital A—the Affordable Housing programme—but most of them think about it Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): with a small a, in terms of mortgage costs or rents, so Does the hon. Gentleman support the suggested new we need to be very careful not to get caught in artificial policy of the Conservative party to open up the right to terminology. buy to housing association tenants? I welcome what my right hon. Friend the Prime Mr Prisk: What the party is rightly saying is that we Minister has said about building thousands more homes, want to ensure that as many people as possible and who including this week’s announcements on starter homes. can afford it are able to own their own home. I think That builds on a programme that I was able to start, the that principle is entirely right. Help to Buy equity loan scheme, which has helped some 77,000 people. However, much more can be done, and I Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): My hon. Friend would like to make three suggestions. I suspect that has made a valid point about working with housing colleagues will want to consider issues such as section associations. Does he agree that councils need to work 106 and planning gain, which I think is an area ripe for closely with housing associations to identify sites for improvement and reform, but let me touch now on affordable housing? The Together Housing Group, which three other things. includes Housing Pendle, has recently rescued an abandoned First, we will get a sustained increase in the number development of 21 homes on Knotts lane in Colne. of affordable homes built only if we focus on delivering That development was left partially built a number of a long-term framework for investment. When I took on years ago, when the previous developer went into the role of Minister for Housing in 2012, housing liquidation. Now, that housing association, by working associations rightly complained to me that the rental with the council, has been able to rescue the development and capital policies of Governments of all political and provide much-needed affordable family homes for persuasions had always been short term. They might be the local community. for two years, or there might be an understanding of what the policy framework would be for three years, but Mr Prisk: My hon. Friend is a brilliant campaigner housing associations argued that a long-term approach on this issue in Pendle. When I was the Minister for was needed if development was to increase and then be Housing, I had the chance to go and see the work that 295WH Affordable Housing4 MARCH 2015 Affordable Housing 296WH he does. He is absolutely right: we need the collaborative some of the people who have analysed this. Savills, for approach, across the sectors and between the different example, estimates that up to 2 million homes could be agencies, if we are to get the building of these homes built on publicly owned land. I welcome the recent unlocked. announcements by Ministers about engaging the Homes I have spoken about the need for a long-term rental and Communities Agency to drive that forward, and I policy for housing associations. My second point is that commend Ministers’ efforts in releasing land, which we need to match that with a long-term commitment to should result in the building of up to 100,000 homes sustained supply for all housing tenures. I recently had over this Parliament. the chance to co-chair—with the right hon. Member for I contend that more can be done, however, and I Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford), who was suggest that we need to overhaul Treasury rules that himself a very capable construction Minister under the guide public asset sales in this field. The strict application previous Administration—a housing commission sponsored of best value rules works against long-term development by Lloyds Banking Group. That commission brought partnership, and it means that we fail to use public together an outstanding group of public and private assets to provide homes that people can afford. Instead, sector experts, who were crystal clear about the key we need to incentivise Government Departments, agencies, issue. The report states: NHS trusts and local authorities to become long-term “We believe that only a long-term commitment, across the development partners and to use public assets to deliver political parties, will deliver the additional homes needed over the homes that are affordable to many more people. There next decade. A realistic target is to complete 2 million to 2.5 million are some good signs, and I draw the Chamber’s attention homes by 2025. To achieve this there is no single solution, no to the fact that the Ministry of Defence, which is often silver bullet. Rather what is needed is a larger, more competitive criticised in that regard, has managed to secure a sensible and diverse market in the supply of homes.” long-term programme in Aldershot. As the report rightly says, we must not only expand More can be done, however. I encourage the Minister, the house building and private rented sector, but encourage although I suspect that he does not need much housing associations and, as my hon. Friend the Member encouragement, to be ambitious in this field and to for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) pointed out, encourage his colleagues across Whitehall to do likewise. local authorities to contribute more. We need not only Alongside that, I would like other long-term owners of the larger contractors, which the hon. Member for land—such as our universities, which are substantial Nottingham South mentioned, but more small builders landowners, many of the large private landowners and and, indeed, self-building. In addition to more homes many of our large pension funds—to be able to work in for sale, a new professional private rented sector needs a new legal and tax framework that actively encourages to develop. We will need not only to regenerate urban them to develop communities for all and, more importantly, areas but to establish completely new settlements as homes that most people can afford. part of a long-term comprehensive approach. Of all the problems that will face the next Government On that note, I very much welcome the Minister’s after May, meeting our country’s housing needs will statement to the House yesterday on Ebbsfleet. He is probably be one of the greatest challenges. Many of the making excellent progress on that; I remember the concerns that will be raised in this debate and others are tensions and challenges of dealing with it. That, together symptoms of the wider problem—dysfunctional housing with the potential in Bicester and elsewhere, is really markets, which have meant that for 25 years or more, we good progress. Together—not individually but together—all have been building roughly half the homes we need, these different elements can give us a sustained increase year in, year out. To break that long-term cycle, we need in housing supply, an increase not for one year or two a long-term commitment across the parties to create a years, but over a decade or more. larger, more diverse and more competitive market in the That brings me to my third and last point, which was supply of homes. There are no quick answers and no a key finding in the housing commission’s report. We easy solutions, but if we create a consistent, long-term need to turn idle public land into affordable family policy framework, we can build the homes that our homes. Government, in all its forms, owns a lot of constituents need. buildings and land that are either underused or, frankly, completely idle. 10.2 am Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) Co-op): Does the hon. Gentleman therefore agree that (Lab): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for it would have behoved the Mayor of London to sell off Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) on securing for that very purpose the fire stations that he has been this debate on a topic that is important not only for my selling? My local one has been sold for £28 million to an constituents but for people in the rest of the country. as yet unannounced but no doubt private developer. May I also declare an interest? I still own my late mother’s flat, and we have been renting it out to the Mr Prisk: I am not an expert on the hon. Lady’s same tenant since she died. constituency, so it would be wiser for me not to wade Many people misunderstand my constituency. It is in into that particular parish, but the Mayor is very clear one of the poorest boroughs in the country, and 40% of about raising the number of homes built and he has my constituents live in social housing. We have a great been crystal clear about ensuring that we get land mixture of people. The very rich, the very poor and brought into use. The Government have established an people from all over the world rub shoulders. I have the effective register within Whitehall, but it has always smallest amount of green space of any constituency in proved difficult to turn that register into actual homes. the country. We all live on top of one another, and we The prize is great, as we discover if we talk and listen to quite like it that way. However, the housing crisis is 297WH Affordable Housing4 MARCH 2015 Affordable Housing 298WH

[Emily Thornberry] five years—at a set rate, which should increase only in line with inflation. We should not be able to treat people fundamentally changing the nature of my constituency. as they are being treated. The average house price in the UK is an outrageous I believe that the private sector has an important role £188,000, which makes it impossibly difficult for the to play in meeting our housing need; I am not one of average person to buy these days, but the average price those people who do not believe in the private rented of a house in my constituency is £665,275. Tomorrow, I sector. However, we now have an entire generation of will see some 12-year-old children at one of my local youngsters—some of them are our own children and schools. They were born and brought up in Islington, our researchers’ friends—who move into properties and and they are ambitious and looking forward to life. are exploited. They are asked to pay ridiculous amounts How on earth will any of them still be able to live in of rent. They make a home, but after six months or a Islington in 15 years’ time? Why are we allowing that to year, perhaps because they have complained about the happen? Why are we not doing something about it? It is fact that their windows are leaking, they will be chucked simply unfair. out and they have absolutely no rights. We have to strike These days, not only the children of the poorest but the right balance, and we must not give tenants so many those of the richest will be unable to live in Islington rights that landlords are frightened off, but we are when they grow up, because our house prices have got talking about people who want to be able to make a completely out of control. I do not want my constituency home in a community. For them to be able to contribute fundamentally to change, and neither do the residents properly, they need some form of security. We should of Islington. We can see no reason why it should, and not allow them to be pushed out of our cities and our we think that radical housing change is needed to metropolises because rents are continually being hiked regulate the market. Some people in this Chamber and up. in this building will think, “Oh, my goodness. What is Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): this, some form of Stalinism? We can’t start controlling The hon. Lady is talking about striking a balance. Does the housing market.” Excuse me, but yes, we can. Most she agree that the acute problems that affect her constituents world cities have some form of housing regulation that are of a different magnitude to the problems in the rest goes much further than the pusillanimous attempts that of the country? Affordable housing is a difficulty in the have been made in recent years to control the housing rest of the country, but not on the scale that she has market in London. We must start taking strong action outlined. to ensure that London people can live in London. I do not have any problem with people from outside Emily Thornberry: I completely understand and agree. London wanting to come and live here. There is a great That is why when the Government talk about localism, tradition of people from all over the world coming to I say, “Hooray! Let us come up with some local solutions live in Islington. However, do you know what is happening to local problems.” However, when my local authority now, Mr Gray? I went to see a woman a couple of starts to introduce innovative schemes to try to address months ago who is living in a completely overcrowded our problems, we are either trampled on by the Department council flat. She is busting out at the seams. Her husband for Communities and Local Government continually runs a local café, and has done for 25 years. They are a changing the rules and tightening up on section 106 good local family, and the kids are doing well. She said agreements, which we are using as imaginatively and to me, “I have no idea where my kids are going to live. laterally as we can to build as much affordable housing They are all grown up now. Where are they going to go? as possible—in Islington, that has to be social rented How can I help them to live in Islington? We want them housing if it is to be properly affordable—or we are to stay here. We are absolutely overcrowded, and look at trampled on by the Mayor. that,” and she pointed at the enormous tower block that The hon. Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk) is being built on the canal nearby. It is called Canaletto, talked about publicly owned land, and the Mount Pleasant or something equally ridiculous. It is covered in fancy site in my constituency is one such cause célèbre. It used stone, and it reaches up into the skies. We all know that to be a massive piece of publicly owned land, which was when it has been sold, the lights will be off at night owned by Royal Mail. When Royal Mail was privatised, because no one is going to live there. People across the the large site at Mount Pleasant was deemed to be a world are investing in our housing market, which is not “car park”, so it was sold for a song. The developers properly regulated. If they have a choice between investing now say on behalf of Royal Mail that, because it is a their money in a few gold bars and saying, “Let’s buy a development site, they should be able to get huge amounts flat in London,” they will buy a flat in London, because of money back, so they cannot possibly afford to put it is nice and secure. They will keep it empty, warm and affordable housing on the land. There is a battle royal secure, and they will rob the people of London of going on in my constituency about the matter. My local somewhere to live. authority and Camden local authority both say, “We are in desperate need of real affordable housing, and this is one of the largest development sites in the area. Mr Prisk: The hon. Lady has set out some of the Please, please, let us build homes for local people. Please problems, and I understand them. Do I take it from her don’t stop us.” And what happened? The Mayor came remarks that she wants to see rent control? in and said, “What we mean by ‘affordable housing’ is 80% of market rent.” Guess what? Nobody in Islington can afford that. This is nonsense. Emily Thornberry: Personally, speaking as a Back Bencher, yes, I do. I want to see rent regulation. An Mr Spencer: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving individual should be able to enter a tenancy agreement way; she is being generous with her time. May I take her with a landlord for a long period of time—three, four or back to her comments on property values in Islington? 299WH Affordable Housing4 MARCH 2015 Affordable Housing 300WH

How would she seek to control the market? How would being made. My local authority is attempting to constrain that work in reality? What steps would she like to see a the Clerkenwell fire station site by saying that it must be Labour Government take to control the marketplace used for affordable housing. We believe that best value and control property values? does not just mean that a public body should squeeze as much money as possible out of a site by building as Emily Thornberry: No, I will not go back to that. I many luxury flats as possible. Best value for the will carry on talking about Mount Pleasant for a minute, community—this is a public asset in the middle of the because it is a disgrace. The more we talk about it, the community—ought to be what the public want and more we expose the difference in values between the what will give best value to that community. Providing Conservative party and local people and why the Mayor homes to my local community in Islington is best value is trampling on local people’s wishes. The Mayor is the as far as we are concerned, which we hope a Labour Tory party’s London representative, and he aspires to Mayor would understand. I will always give Boris Johnson high places within the party. People should be warned the benefit of the doubt, and I will be completely about his agenda. converted if he comes back with this, but I want him to Some 681 new homes will be built on the Mount say, “Emily, I understand that ‘best value’ means affordable Pleasant site, and 163 of those homes will be affordable, homes on that site, which means a large proportion of at 80% of market rent, but the rest will carry the most social rented accommodation.” I hope against hope, ridiculous prices in which only people cashing in their but I am always an optimist. You never know, Mr Gray; gold bars in China could invest to be able to live there. you never know. We have 19,000 families on the housing waiting list in I appreciate that I have taken a bit of time, so I will Islington who want to stay in Islington. If we could wind up, although there is much more that I want to build 1,500 affordable social rented homes on that site, say, as I am sure people can tell. The hon. Member for on the Canaletto site or on another such site, we could Hertford and Stortford said that there is no silver bullet, unplug our housing waiting list. People would then but there is. The reason we do not have affordable have a fighting chance of getting themselves a social housing, whether in Northern Ireland, in his constituency rented home. or in London, is that we do not have enough homes. We have not been building enough homes, and we did not I will illustrate the sort of people on my housing build enough when we were in government. We did a waiting list. I never try to exaggerate. Whenever I make great deal of good, and we did up all the country’s a speech, and I have made this speech many times over social housing. We made all social housing conform to the past 10 years, I always talk about the very last the decent homes standard, which was a fantastic person I met. In this case, the last person I met was a achievement that we do not shout about enough, but we woman with three children. She has lived in so-called did not build enough new homes. We needed to build temporary accommodation for five years. She had polio, more. so her legs are in the most terrible state. She has 28 steps up to her front door, and she has fallen down twice and It is all very well for the hon. Gentleman to carp broken her leg. She now has to have a knee replacement. about that, but, frankly, his party should look at the She has a child with special needs, and she is stuck in plank in its own eye. How much has his party built this accommodation. And guess what? She has also during its five years in government? Very little indeed. been hit by the benefits cap. She is in temporary That is why we are in this crisis, and one thing on which accommodation, which costs £400 of the £500 a week we can all agree is that we must build more homes. We that is available to her. She and her three children are need to be brave and allow local communities to decide living on £100 a week in entirely inappropriate on the sorts of places that they need. The solutions that accommodation. My local authority is doing its utmost are appropriate for my constituency might not be to find alternative accommodation. appropriate for Nottingham or York. Nevertheless, we must drive local authorities and local people, so that we Frankly, if someone moves their car in Islington, we are able to give our younger generation a chance. My have built a flat there by the time they come back in youngsters might not be able to live in Islington, and the evening. We are building as much social rented Nottingham youngsters might not be able to live in accommodation as possible in the area, despite the Nottingham, because they cannot afford to move into Government having cut back the subsidy to local authorities the sort of accommodation in which their parents lived. and despite the Government making it so difficult for This is all about intergenerational justice, and we, the my local authority to stand up to developers and say, older generation, either have secure social rented homes “We need social rented accommodation. That is what or are buying our own places, but our youngsters have our local people say. We are the local representatives. no chance unless we grasp the nettle and say, “Yes, we Who are you? What is localism? Let us have our say.” owe it to the youngsters in this country to start building more homes.” Emma Reynolds: Does my hon. Friend agree that the potential role of a progressive Labour Mayor would be to drive up the number of affordable homes on these big 10.16 am sites, rather than taking every opportunity to drive Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): It is a pleasure down the number of affordable homes, as the current to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray.I congratulate Tory Mayor is doing? the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) on securing this important debate, because Emily Thornberry: Absolutely, and I will give another there is a huge affordable housing problem. Whether in example. Clerkenwell fire station is on the other side of the social rented sector or the private rented sector, the road from the notorious Royal Mail site, which was people are struggling. She and the hon. Member for sold off for a song and out of which a huge profit is now Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) are 301WH Affordable Housing4 MARCH 2015 Affordable Housing 302WH

[Dr Julian Huppert] argued for £12 million to be put into 100 affordable homes, but sadly Labour decided to stick with its rather right that the problem is not new; there has been a more risky approach. That housing was needed locally problem for a long time. The previous Government did and would have generated revenues for the council as not build enough houses, which leaves us where we are well. now, and the current Government have not fixed the We will keep pressing, but we also need to do that problem, either. nationally. My party has the most ambitious plan among My constituency of Cambridge has an acute problem, the three parties: to build 300,000 homes a year, because partly because we are a success story. We have a booming the calculations show that replacement needs 225,000 homes local economy and very low unemployment, particularly as there are more households. If we do anything less youth unemployment, but we have not had the housing than 300,000, we will not be keeping pace and the or infrastructure that are needed to keep up. In fact, in pressure will continue, albeit perhaps at a slower rate. previous decades, there was a deliberate policy of not building houses in Cambridge but only building in the Emma Reynolds: Given that the Liberal Democrats surrounding villages, which increased the cost of housing are part of a Government who have presided over the and worsened traffic congestion. That has now changed, lowest level of house building in peacetime since the but it takes a long time to catch up, so private sector 1920s, what is the hon. Gentleman’s party’s plan for prices are getting ever higher, whatever the category. those 300,000 homes a year? Rent for a one-bedroom flat in Cambridge is the highest in the entire east of England. The average house costs Dr Huppert: I am sure that the hon. Lady has heard 11 times the median salary, which prices many people the discussions. Garden cities would be a large part of whom we desperately need—researchers, teachers and that plan, because they are a sustainable way to go nurses—out of the housing market. ahead. It is no secret that we have wanted to see much We have a shortage of social and council housing. As more of this, but coalition government is not the same of September 2014, 2,500 people were on the housing as a single-party, Liberal Democrat Government—I needs register. Many people are waiting two years or look forward to seeing that at some point. longer to find a place. There is huge demand. In November, The other thing we would like to do that we have set there were 90 bids for a one-bedroom flat, and there out in plans is to give local authorities the ability to were 152 bids for another property in December. We suspend the right to buy and the right to acquire. They have a shortage, which is not a new thing. The previous have played a useful role in many places, but they are Government managed to reduce the number of social incredibly damaging in other areas. They are depleting and council houses by 421,000 across the country, which social housing in places such as Cambridge. A localist is a big problem—a huge indictment. agenda would allow councils to decide what is best and What hit us perhaps even worse in Cambridge was ensure that all proceeds are used to build more social the ridiculous negative subsidy scheme, in which council housing. tenants’ money was taken from Cambridge to be spent Since we have the Minister here, I would like to pick elsewhere. In Cambridge, £1,300 had been taken from up another issue quickly. every tenant by the time we got rid of the scheme. Over the 13 years of the Labour Government, the sum taken from Cambridge city council was £120 million. In our Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Will the surrounding district, South Cambridgeshire district council hon. Gentleman give way? lost £118 million to the scheme. The money was taken directly from council tenants. Dr Huppert: I will not, I am afraid, because other people wish to speak. Just think what we could have done with that money if we were allowed to keep it. We could have spent On 28 November, new guidance on housing £5,000 doing up every council house and still have had developments and section 106 payments was issued for enough money to build about 1,000 more. I am delighted sites with small developments of fewer than 10 units. to say that the Government have scrapped the scheme, We need those section 106 payments. In Cambridge, a so the city council has been able to build and improve 10-unit site is substantial and incredibly valuable. That council housing. When we ran the council, we started a measure is already costing the city more than £200,000 programme to invest £286 million, partly from those and the figure is expected to reach £500,000 a year, and savings, to build 2,000 council homes over the next that is a mistake. That makes it harder for somewhere decades. Free from negative subsidy, we can make that a such as Cambridge to ensure that housing is available reality: we built 146 council homes before the elections for people on low incomes and prevents the establishment last year. of properly mixed communities, which are the most sustainable kind. I therefore urge the Minister to get rid We got through an ambitious local plan, now being of that proposal immediately because of the harm that inspected, calling for 14,000 new homes by 2031, 40% of it will do to Cambridge and elsewhere. which would be affordable, and the Greater Cambridge city deal with a total of £1 billion of investment in I also urge the Minister to look again at the vacant affordable housing and transport. I want to go further building credit, which is also causing problems, at least and faster. Although we lost control of the city council in its interpretation, because people can use it to avoid last May, just last week at the budget meeting we the contributions that they should make. pressed the new Labour administration to invest the My last point is that the Treasury still places a tight council’s own money in housing, rather that speculate cap on the amount that local councils can borrow from on commercial property as it wanted, because we think the housing revenue fund to build new houses. That was that people in Cambridge need those houses. We therefore true under the previous Government, as well us under 303WH Affordable Housing4 MARCH 2015 Affordable Housing 304WH this one. Places such as Cambridge need to be able to Lilian Greenwood: My hon. Friend talks about some keep pace, so we need those powers. I know that that is of the sorts of people who cannot afford to buy, but is up to Treasury Ministers, not this Minister, but that cap the position not so much worse for so many vital public should be got rid of, or at least lifted, so that councils sector workers, such as home care workers and many can manage prudentially. For the council to borrow others, who are trapped on insecure contracts, and money to invest in housing in Cambridge would be a increasingly on zero-hours contracts, and do not have good investment financially and for the people of the any certainty about their long-term income, despite city. Cambridge has been a success story and that has doing vital jobs? brought problems. We are growing and unemployment is down, but we therefore have more and more pressure Mr James Gray (in the Chair): Order. Before the hon. on housing. We must deal with that urgently. Gentleman responds, he might bear in mind that I hope to call one more speaker before the Front-Bench Members 10.23 am at 20 minutes to 11. Sir Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): I want to start Sir Hugh Bayley: My hon. Friend is right, although it by talking about the people who have come to my is not only public sector workers who are on zero-hours surgeries, desperate—usually as a last resort—looking contracts; such contracts affect a lot of people who for somewhere to live. They are people whom, more provide essential services. Every time we go into a shop, often than not, I fail: the rough sleepers—[Interruption.] we are buying something we need from a private sector worker. Mr James Gray (in the Chair): Order. The hon. Member During my time, York has never built enough affordable for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) may not leave the Chamber housing, and that is my biggest regret—I might say my immediately after making a speech. He must remain biggest failure—during 23 years in this House. I say to here and listen to the subsequent speech. my friend, the hon. Member for York Outer (Julian Sturdy), who is here, that unless he and my successor, Sir Hugh Bayley: They are the rough sleepers, for the new Member for York Central, increase the amount example, whose numbers have increased by 55% under of housing we build in York, we will snuff out the this Government; the homeless, whose numbers have economic growth that has been so important to the city increased by 26%; sofa surfers; adult children and in recent decades. grandchildren still living with their parents or grandparents; and families in grossly overcrowded conditions. The number of affordable housing completions in York is falling. In 2010-11 we had 282, but in the York has one of the strongest economies in the north following year we had 151, then 127 and, in 2013-14, of England. Under the Labour Government the number just 50. Why are those numbers falling? The Government of jobs grew from 40,000 to 57,000, and that growth has have introduced five measures that have reduced the continued, although slightly more slowly, since 2010. amount of affordable housing built. First, they raised However, that has not been matched by housing growth, the affordable housing threshold for rural developments, so a shortage of housing is driving up the cost of both so that affordable housing is not provided on developments renting and buying. of 10 homes or fewer. Since that change, only one rural The problem is getting worse because the gap between housing scheme of more than 10 homes has been proposed top earners and low earners is increasing. Back in 1997, in York. In the previous 18 months, 11 such schemes lower quartile housing prices were four times greater were proposed, all of which made contributions towards than lower quartile earnings, but now they are eight affordable housing, but that has stopped. times lower quartile earnings. There are currently 717 homes Secondly, the vacant building credit will mean that for sale in York, with an average sale price of £290,000. there is not an affordable housing component when Of course, that is less than in London, but wages are far vacant buildings are converted, or razed to the ground less than in London, too. The average price for a one- and rebuilt, to provide housing. A large part of the bedroom, entry-level flat in York is £133,000. The annual Nestlé factory site is available for redevelopment. The income required to buy that is therefore £43,000. By plan was to provide a couple of hundred homes, of comparison, elsewhere in the region, in Leeds the required which a substantial proportion would have been affordable. income is £33,000, in Wakefield it is £26,000 and in Now, because of the Minister’s change of policy—will Barnsley it is £20,000. he look up from his phone for a minute?—those affordable Who can afford to buy in Yorkshire? In York, a homes may no longer be provided. barrister, a GP or a mortgage adviser can afford Thirdly, there is the exemption from the right to a one-bedroom, entry-level flat on their wages, but a convert offices to residential use. That also used construction site manager or a police sergeant cannot. to generate a proportion of affordable housing but no In Leeds, an estate agent or insurance broker can afford longer has to. The council in York estimates that since to buy, but a university lecturer cannot. In Wakefield, a that change 77 affordable homes in York have been lost. police constable or a schoolteacher can afford to buy, Fourthly, York has a healthy housing revenue account, but a paramedic cannot. but the cap on the council’s ability to convert the The thresholds for private renting are pretty much resources it has into further building is reducing the the same, although in York the construction site manager amount of affordable housing that is made available. on £42,000 a year could rent, but the police sergeant on Fifthly, of course, the Government have also cut their £37,000 could not. In Leeds, a class teacher could rent, grant for affordable housing to £23,000 on average per but the police sergeant could not. Those are people property, which is roughly half of what it was. All these whom every one of our communities needs: police five policies need to change. Of course, the lack of officers, teachers, estate agents and lecturers. affordable housing is pushing people into the private 305WH Affordable Housing4 MARCH 2015 Affordable Housing 306WH

[Sir Hugh Bayley] asking for, and 425 homes a year less than Labour and the Green party are asking for. I ask all those parties rented sector, so what the Government are doing is locally to stop shilly-shallying, to cut a deal and to get reducing their capital contribution to building housing the plan approved, so that developers know where they and instead spending the same amount of money, or can provide housing and where they cannot. If we do more, on subsidising private landlords, which cannot be not do that, the housing that is so desperately needed a good use of public money. simply will not be provided. There is a very special problem in York with the broad rental market area, which is used to set the local 10.34 am housing allowance. It is a problem because rents in York are much higher than in areas some 20 miles away that Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ are deemed to be part of the same local market for Co-op): Thank you very much, Mr Gray, for calling me determining the BRMA rate. For example, the average to speak. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. private rent in York for a one-bedroom property is I endorse every comment made by my hon. Friend the £564 a month. The BRMA local housing allowance Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) in is £430 a month, leaving families to find £134 a month her excellent speech, and congratulate her on securing from their own resources. However, in Selby, which is this debate. just 12 miles away, the average rent is £391, nearly Housing in my constituency is simply in crisis. In £40 lower than the local housing allowance. People on my constituency, more people rent privately—30% of the periphery are getting what they need—their full rent my constituents—than own property, and 44% of my is covered—whereas people in York are getting substantially constituents rent social housing. Private rents in Hackney less. There are similar figures for two and three-bedroom are now at 54% of income, and there is a huge lack of properties, but I will not give them now. However, there certainty about the length of private tenancies, and is a gap of £220 between the local housing allowance about rents, which often increase just because they can and the average rent for a three-bedroom property. be increased. This problem of a single BRMA covering a high-cost I will give a couple of examples. I have routinely been city and a much lower-cost rural periphery affects just sending out questionnaires to constituents, because I four places in Britain. One is Cambridge, and I have have so many people contacting me about these issues. written to the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) Two adults and a child live in a one-bedroom property. about this; some months later, I am waiting for his reply, One full-time income and one part-time income brings to find out whether we can do joint work on this issue. them in £2,100 a month after tax, and they also have The other three are Oxford, York and, in Scotland, child care costs on top of that. When we compare those Edinburgh. If the Government do nothing else in those figures with the weekly median rent in Hackney, which four cities, they should split those BRMAs, because is £330 a week, it does not take much knowledge of then the BRMA would provide something closer to the maths to work out that their income does not go very real cost for people in the centre, and it would stop far. wasting public money by overpaying, if I might say so, I will give another example. Somebody said that a on the periphery. combination of having to pay high fees every time they move, and the fact that they have to move every 12 months Dr Huppert: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman has due to rent increases and the inability to obtain longer-term not received my response. I definitely sent one; in fact, I tenancies, has seriously hindered their ability to save as was surprised that he had not replied to me. Nevertheless, well as settle. This issue affects not only private tenants he is absolutely right: the BRMA, as introduced by the but the community as a whole, because of the churn last Government, has been a calamity for places such as that we get as a result. Cambridge, and I hope that that issue can be resolved. House prices have gone up 124.9% since 2005, when I was first elected, and the average house price is slightly Sir Hugh Bayley: Right: I will work with the hon. lower than in Islington, at £606,000. Of course, for new Gentleman in the few weeks that I have left as an MP, social housing, there is now the edict that most social and with my right hon. Friend the Member for Oxford housing should be 80% of local private rents. In Hackney, East (Mr Smith). that is nonsense; the sums arrived at are not affordable. One thing that the Government and local authorities Tenants, often strangers to each other, are now sharing must deliver is more land for housing. Critically, York rooms out of necessity. Then, of course, we have the needs to agree a local plan to designate where development invidious bedroom tax. On Wenlock Barn estate alone, will be permitted. That has not happened for decades in Hoxton, 74 households are hit by that tax, and they under successive Conservative, Labour and Liberal live in fear about what will happen to them. It is not as if Democrat-led councils in York. The current Labour there is available housing of the right size for them, council has submitted a plan; it was rejected by the because there is such a squeeze on need; even if they Government and the council was told to redraft it. were made to move, there is nowhere for them to move Now, there is an argument between the parties. Labour to. and the Green party argue that the council should plan I have some specific local concerns. One is about to build 850 homes a year; the Liberal Democrats and non-domiciled landlords. They do not let slum properties; Conservatives are proposing something like 730 homes we do not have that many very, very bad properties in a year. Hackney. However, the appeal of rental yield is what In York, 4,200 homes have been built in the last many properties are sold on, off-plan, which means 10 years, which is 420 a year. That is 300 homes a year rents go up each year, because the letting agent is on a less than the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats are ticket to increase their profit and that of the overseas 307WH Affordable Housing4 MARCH 2015 Affordable Housing 308WH landlord, be they in Dubai or Hong Kong. Increasingly, Stortford (Mr Prisk) that the Treasury rules need to huge swathes of properties are sold overnight off-plan, change, to allow the sale of public land for public even when developers have promised the local planning benefit. St Leonard’s hospital has now gone to PropCo committee that they will not do that. There is no legal and the NHS, and the fire station is being sold off. All constraint on the number of properties that can be sold around us in my area, every possible bit of development to someone overseas. I hope that both Front-Bench land is being sold, not for affordable housing for local teams consider looking at this issue. people, but for overseas buyers to live in luxury flats. There is a really shocking case that I have come across recently. A national property developer in the 10.40 am UK employs staff whose job is entirely about arguing with planning departments for additional units of housing Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): and for fewer units of social housing. Those staff members It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, are paid a bonus for every additional unit that they Mr Gray. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member argue up, and for every social unit they argue down. In for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) on securing the process, they tie up days and days of council officers’ this important debate. time. In one case, nearly a whole year—more than As a country, we face a severe housing crisis. We are 300 days—of council officers’ time was taken up, because not even building half the number of homes that we these staff keep coming back, as their income depends need to keep up with demand. As the hon. Member for on it. I use the word advisedly, but that practice is an Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk), the former Housing immoral way to earn a living, and it is shocking when I Minister, said, certainly for more than 25 or 30 years, consider the impact on my constituents. we simply have not been building anywhere near the Recently, we had a battle over the New Era estate. I number of homes that we need. It is regrettable that, will not go into that again, but private landlords there under this Government, we have seen the lowest level of are able to sell property on, forgetting that they are house building in peacetime since the 1920s. selling not just property but people’s homes, which As my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham affects their lives. In London, we see our Mayor caving South has spelt out, people are being priced out of in to private developers. He wants to maximise luxury home ownership, and millions are on the waiting list flats, which are often sold to overseas buyers. The local for a social home. Home ownership is at its lowest for fire station in my area has been sold for £28 million, which 30 years, and a record number of young people in their can only mean luxury flats. That is a scandal, especially 20s and 30s, many of whom are living at home with with fire response times now more than six minutes in their parents, are suffering most from this. We had the the area. In Bishopsgate in Shoreditch, an area that has lowest number of homes in 20 years built for social rent not had a social housing unit built in 10 years, the last year. As my hon. Friend the Member for York Mayor is again on the drive for a 48-storey tower block Central (Sir Hugh Bayley) pointed out, there has been with luxury flats. an increase of 55% in those sleeping rough since 2010, Hackney is building; it is one of the top two councils and an increase of 26% in those who are statutorily nationally when it comes to building new homes. It homeless. As he also said, different people from public could do more if the housing revenue cap were lifted, and private sector organisations are being priced out of and if we could see a long-term solution to this problem, home ownership. They may be cleaners, childminders, which is what is needed. Again, I appeal to both Front- office workers, bus drivers or shop workers in some Bench teams. We should look at the ballooning housing areas. In other areas, they could be teachers, police benefit bill, which is pouring money down the drain officers, or university lecturers. The list goes on. when it could be better spent on building new homes The lack of affordable housing is not only bad for that are genuinely affordable. I have a few asks. I go those who cannot afford to live in their communities. It further than my Front-Bench team, because I believe is also bad, as was pointed out by my hon. Friend the that Hackney’s problems today will ripple out; we are Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier), the canary—Islington probably is too, in some respects— for taxpayers and the wider economy. Worryingly, there showing what will happen in the rest of the country. has been an increase in the benefits bill because of We need longer tenancies. The Council of Mortgage people who are in work receiving housing benefit: an Lenders, which I met yesterday, says that that is possible; increase of two thirds since the Government came to there is no big block in the system. So why is it not power. It is a threat to our economic growth and happening? I applaud our Front-Bench team for pushing competitiveness, with businesses in high-demand areas for longer tenancies. There also needs to be greater such as London—but not only London—worrying about certainty about rents; perhaps there could be a rent where their staff will be able to afford to live. So it is escalator model. We also need to stop retaliatory evictions. clear that we need many more affordable homes, including There should be a landlord register, with a quality council homes. I grew up in a council house, where I kitemark, so that tenants know what they are buying, as spent the early part of my childhood, so this is not just they would in any other area of business. an abstract notion for me. We should disbar landlords who are not fit and It is regrettable that the Government have taken proper. There should be mandatory installation of fire every opportunity to undermine the building of genuinely and carbon monoxide alarms. We should change the affordable homes. As my hon. Friend the Member for definition of “affordable”, to break this ridiculous link Nottingham South pointed out, it was an early signal of with market rents, which does not have any relation to intent that, within weeks of taking office, the Government the incomes of the people that my hon. Friend the cut the affordable homes programme by an eye-watering Member for York Central (Sir Hugh Bayley) referred 60%. They have redefined what affordable means. They to. I agree with the hon. Member for Hertford and changed what was meant by an affordable home when 309WH Affordable Housing4 MARCH 2015 Affordable Housing 310WH

[Emma Reynolds] has taken it upon himself to call in that application and force down—not up—the number of affordable homes they introduced the 80% affordable rent model. As my on that site. hon. Friends the Members for Islington South and The Government have failed to live up to their promise Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) and for Hackney South of replacing homes sold through right to buy one for and Shoreditch pointed out, the truth is that homes at one. Since 2012, for every 21 council houses sold under 80% of market rent are very often unaffordable in right to buy, only one has been built. As my hon. Friend high-demand areas. According to research carried out the Member for Nottingham South underlined in her by Inside Housing, for a home to be affordable for those contribution, the Government’s bedroom tax is not in Kensington and Chelsea, a combined income of only a complete failure of a policy that hits the most £80,000 is needed, and for many other London boroughs vulnerable the hardest, but it has led to a rise in rent people need an income of £40,000. That is not affordable arrears and, in some cases, homes being left empty. for many of the key workers we need to live in our cities. As though redefining “affordable” was not enough, One or two such changes would have been bad enough, the Government have watered down the requirement to but the cumulative impact of the changes that the provide affordable housing and removed the requirement Government have introduced has meant that people for affordable housing contributions on sites of fewer across the country are struggling to find a home to rent than 10 units. As my hon. Friend the Member for York or buy. Tragically, the lack of affordable housing is Central pointed out, this is having a particularly devastating having a real impact at the sharp end. I have already impact in rural areas. The Government have introduced mentioned homelessness and rough sleeping, but it is what they call a vacant building credit, which is basically worth mentioning again that the lack of affordable an excuse for developers not to fulfil their affordable housing is, unfortunately and tragically, driving the housing requirement, and even the developers themselves numbers up. think that that goes too far. The Westminster Property Housing will be a day one priority for the next Association, which includes British Land, Land Securities, Labour Government. It is true that the market has not Berkeley Homes and the Grosvenor Group, said that been delivering for quite some time. There is a huge and the policy was deeply flawed and would lead to a pressing need to increase the overall supply of new further erosion of the ability of people from a wide homes. We have made it clear that, under a Labour range of backgrounds to live in the heart of the capital. Government, housing will be a priority for capital investment. We will reverse the watering down of section Mr Prisk: The hon. Lady said that 80% of market 106 and ensure that tougher rules are in place to assess rents is unfair. What level would a Labour Government viability, so that developers cannot dodge the rules. We set? will scrap the Government’s affordable homes avoidance scheme. We will make sure that we use public land to drive the development of affordable housing, and we Emma Reynolds: If I cross the Floor of the House, as want to see councils return to their historic role of the hon. Gentleman suggested earlier, we will obviously building council homes. Wolverhampton city council is inherit the current affordable homes programme, but we building the first new council homes in our city in more will make our plans for the future clearer in the weeks to than 30 years. I am proud that Labour councils are come. building twice as many affordable homes as Tory local Even Westminster city council’s deputy leader, Robert authorities. Davis, has said that the policy There is a crucial role for housing associations. I am “threatens our capability to deliver much-needed housing in always grateful for the wise advice of the hon. Member central London.” for Hertford and Stortford. He suggests that I make His director of planning went even further and called it sure that they have great stability going forward. I say to insane. The Housing Minister claimed that the reforms him that some of the biggest changes to the way in would not have a significantly adverse effect on the which housing associations operate have occurred under affordable housing programme, even though his own his Government. There has been a huge cut in funding, Department admitted that it had not done a formal and the welfare chaos that we have seen has provided assessment of the policy’s impact. unstable and uncertain conditions for them to operate in. Unfortunately, the story of this Parliament has been an ever-rising need for affordable homes, but we have Emily Thornberry: There has been a side debate about had a Government seemingly determined to do everything what is affordable. In relation to house prices in Islington, that they can to undermine the building of new, affordable may I add that social rented accommodation in Islington homes. is set at 40% of market rent? I know that the Minister will get up and aggregate the numbers over a five-year period, but if the Government Emma Reynolds: The City of London has estimated are so serious about building affordable homes, why did that this policy will reduce its housing budget by a they cut the affordable homes budget by 60%? Why did massive £8 million. It is clear that the Tory Mayor, as they water down the definition of affordable? Why have hon. Members have already suggested, is keen on driving they watered down the requirements on developers? down the number of affordable homes, particularly on Why have they changed the way in which viability is big developments. My hon. Friend mentioned the Mount assessed? All those measures have led to the number of Pleasant development, which used to be public land. It affordable homes, particularly those for social rent, has not been used to provide the number of affordable going down. Only a Labour Government would have a homes that we need, precisely because Boris Johnson comprehensive plan to tackle the long-term housing 311WH Affordable Housing4 MARCH 2015 Affordable Housing 312WH crisis by making the market more competitive and Labour. Opposition Members should be very aware making sure that councils have the powers and flexibilities of that. It is important to understand that with the to build and provide the housing that we need. starter homes—it is clear in the documentation that the Government have put out—we are looking at making 10.49 am available land that has not been viable before. We are doing that without section 106 agreements and we are The Minister of State, Department for Communities reducing regulation for developers so that they can offer and Local Government (Brandon Lewis): It is a pleasure those homes at a minimum discount of 20%. to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. My hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk) Emma Reynolds rose— made some good points, as he always does, on how we built the foundations for the success we are seeing with Meg Hillier rose— house building. He should be proud. One point he touched on, which showed the Government’s ambition, Brandon Lewis: I will finish the point I am making. was the public sector land that has been released, which The hon. Ladies have made a fair few interventions is enough to build 100,000 houses. A few Members made today and I want to respond to the points raised in the that point, and I am pleased to announce that we have short time we have left. There is no direct cost to buying surpassed that target. When Members leave the Chamber, those homes at that discount. It makes home buying they will see that we have gone past 100,000 and set affordable to the very people that the hon. Member for ourselves a higher target of 150,000 in the next Parliament. York Central (Sir Hugh Bayley) mentioned. Some of I am disappointed that the hon. Member for Nottingham those who have not been able, even with Help to Buy, to South (Lilian Greenwood) seems to lack real ambition. get on the ladder will be able to link Help to Buy with a The Labour party generally seems to lack ambition starter home to make house buying accessible. From compared with us on what can be achieved. The hon. day one, fixing the housing market and the economy Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) made a fair point have been top priorities for us in government. on the ambition of what we should be delivering. I have often commented that setting targets can lead to unintended Meg Hillier: Will the Minister give way? consequences and fictitious outcomes. We should be driving for the right outcome, which is homes that Brandon Lewis: Not at the moment, no. We have people can afford. The Labour party’s lack of ambition channelled new investment into every area of the housing in wanting to hit 200,000 homes by 2020 is clear and market. We have cut the deficit to keep interest rates low evidenced by the fact that this Government’s programme, for investors and home buyers. We have introduced a as we outlined this week, will hit 200,000 homes by wide range of measures to get Britain building again, 2017. and that plan is working. More than 500,000 home have I hope to work with Jane Hunt in a Conservative been built. There are 700,000 more homes in England, Government. I visited her in Nottingham South, where with house building at its highest level since 2007. she is fighting hard to ensure that we get even stronger Conservative representation in this place. She wants to Sir Hugh Bayley rose— be part of a Conservative Government who would build 200,000 homes for first-time buyers. Not only will we Meg Hillier rose— offer first-time buyers a chance to benefit from Help to Buy, which has allowed tens of thousands of families Brandon Lewis: I give way first to the hon. Member to get on to the housing ladder with a reduced deposit for York Central. following the economic farce and crash that we inherited, but we will go further by giving them a 20% discount, Sir Hugh Bayley: When I talk to developers in York, making the achievement of buying a first home more they say that there are two constraints: one is the lack of open to more people. land and the other is the lack of building materials. There has been a shortage of bricks. What are the Emily Thornberry: Has the money for those 300,000 Government doing to ensure that the supply chain homes been explained to us, or does it come from the delivers enough technically qualified builders and enough same pot at the end of the rainbow as the £7 billion of building materials to build the number of houses they tax cuts that the Conservatives have promised the public? seek?

Brandon Lewis: The hon. Members for Nottingham Brandon Lewis: I will give way to the hon. Member South and for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily for Hackney South and Shoreditch and then deal with Thornberry) and I have spent many times at the Dispatch her points and those of the hon. Gentleman together. Box in the past few months in full agreement, so it is probably a healthy return to normal that we disagree Meg Hillier: We see in London the effects of an today, but I suggest they go away and read some of the untrammelled Tory Administration. Private developers documentation before they come to this place and make have free reign. There is less affordable housing. Where comments that are absolutely inaccurate. For example, it is affordable, it is 80% of private rents. That applies to it is worth having a read of the Hansard transcript of a number of sites, as we have highlighted. Is that the the Communities and Local Government Committee Minister’s ambition if he is in power after the election? sitting last week, where we made it clear that the right to buy programme is delivering on the replacement of Brandon Lewis: As I have outlined, the ambition is to homes in the way it was designed. There is an interesting ensure that we are building the houses that this country contrast, because the replacement rate was 1:170 under needs. Those 200,000 starter homes will give people 313WH Affordable Housing4 MARCH 2015 Affordable Housing 314WH

[Brandon Lewis] has provided to Pendle borough council. We have done fantastic work to reduce the number of empty homes in opportunities that the Labour party simply cannot the borough from more than 2,000 to just 1,200. match. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford—my predecessor—outlined, we are at Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend makes a good point. the start of a programme that is building affordable I know from when I visited his constituency that he housing at the fastest rate the country has seen in more makes that point passionately and has worked hard than 20 years. with the excellent leadership of Pendle borough council to develop that work. Earlier, Members talked about The hon. Member for York Central made a good the work that is often unsung. The work to bring empty point. People often expect the challenge for the development homes back into use under this Government has been industry over the past couple of years to have been land phenomenal. Empty homes are at the lowest level pretty supply, but it is not, thanks to the changes that we much since records began. That is a big step forward made to the top-down rigours and structures in planning in replacing and moving forward from that loss of that stopped development under Labour. Through that, 420,000 socially rented homes under Labour, as Members our driving of planning locally and because we have have touched on. kept interest rates low, we are seeing benefits. Some 240,000 homes have been given planning permission in Lilian Greenwood: Will the Minister give way? the past 12 months. Members touched on the changes the Government have made to finance for small building Brandon Lewis: No, I will conclude, as there is only a projects, which have made that finance available. We short time left. Over the next Parliament, we will build went further a couple of months ago. One area that more affordable housing at a faster rate than at any time developers consistently mention is the supply chain. I in the past 20 years. Our first priority has been to ensure was delighted yesterday to reopen a brick factory that that we get the public finances back under control. We shut down in 2008 during Labour’s recession. It reopened knew that public spending had to be constrained. We on Monday and will deliver 2 million bricks a year to have to live within our means, and that is part of the the industry. problem we inherited with the Labour Government’s The construction industry is working and hiring at fiscal mess. the fastest rate since 1997, and the hon. Gentleman is We have given housing associations the tools they right that that delivers the second challenge to the need to build more homes. The changes we have made industry, which is skills. One thing we can all do—I will from April give certainty and stability to social hope that all parties agree on this—is encourage more tenants and landlords alike. We have protected social people to come into the sector. It is a phenomenally tenants from large rent increases. Our strong economic rewarding career, with wide opportunities at home and, record has allowed us to offer housing guarantees to potentially, abroad. There are a wide range of careers in housing associations, which mean that they are borrowing the industry. We need to change some of the perceptions at the cheapest rate in the sector’s history. That has of the construction industry to encourage more people helped to provide more than £1 billion of support to into it. That is why I hosted a skills summit with the affordable homes across the UK. All sectors need to be Minister for Skills and Equalities, my hon. Friend the delivering, even social housing. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles) just The hon. Member for Cambridge and others touched before Christmas at the fantastic new Olympic park. on the issue of building by councils. We have to be Developers, apprentices and colleges discussed those responsible with borrowing, and the borrowing that issues to try to ensure that we are delivering the skills we councils do has an impact on the public sector borrowing need for the future. Construction is no doubt one of the requirement, so there are no plans to lift that cap. As opportunities we have to see more jobs coming to this part of our long-term economic plan, however, we have country, beyond those we have already seen. incentivised councils to build. The power of competence has allowed them to move forward. We made more Andrew Stephenson: Will the Minister give way? money available last summer for those who needed headroom and wanted to borrow more. Councils have more powers and greater freedoms to deliver the housing Brandon Lewis: One last time, and then I will conclude. they need. We need to build more houses in this country. We have a fixed, strong, long-term economic plan that Andrew Stephenson: Does the Minister agree that for gives us a secure economy to deliver those houses and parts of the north of England, such as the area I the jobs that are the benefit from that house building. represent, it is important that we focus not only on new We are delivering for those who want to buy a home of build homes, but also on bringing long-term empty their own to give security for themselves and their properties back into use? I thank him for the support he families. 315WH 4 MARCH 2015 Local Suicide Prevention Plans 316WH

Local Suicide Prevention Plans Mrs Moon: I thank my hon. Friend for her question. We are both Welsh MPs, and we know how dire the 11 am situation is in Wales. The suicide rate in Wales is 15.6 deaths Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): It is a pleasure per 100,000—the highest in the UK. That is perhaps to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. part of what drives me. I know that we have our own This debate comes after a report by the all-party problems in Wales, but the matter is devolved to the group on suicide and self-harm prevention, as well as Welsh Assembly. The all-party group’s work helps to the publication of the most recent suicide statistics two highlight the problems here in England. After Wales, weeks ago. I want to start with a quote from someone Scotland has the next highest rate, followed by Northern who gave evidence to the all-party group. It was the Ireland and the north-east of England. There is a most powerful statement that we received. Speaking on serious problem in Wales that we must tackle as well. behalf of one of the London authorities, the person said: People cannot be complacent if their area has a low “People don’t want to talk about sad subjects…I could get level of suicide, because facts change, deaths change, dozens of people in a room for mental health but not suicide…I and the figures change. At one point, the Isle of Wight had maybe four or five people in the room for a suicide meeting, had a very low suicide rate, but now it is higher, and it is out of an invitation list of dozens who had attended similar considered to have an average rate. It has gone from low events on the subject of mental health.” to average—that is a rise. We cannot assume that because There is the problem. People do not want to talk about the suicide rate is currently low it will remain that way. sad subjects. They do not want to look at suicide. It is too painful and too difficult. They avoid tackling a The report highlighted particular concerns about problem that blights the lives of far too many people in London. It shows poor levels of suicide prevention this country. planning, but also low levels of deaths. That does not make sense: not only the lack of action planning, but The all-party group requested information from all everything about the demographic profile of London 152 local authorities in England. Eventually, after some and some of its regions would suggest that normally poking with a sharp stick and freedom of information there would be a higher level of deaths in certain local requests, all but two replied. The data revealed a shocking authorities. Something must be done to examine what is lack of understanding of the basic difference between happening, because either the data are wrong, and what suicide and mental health. Some people think that if is really happening is being hidden, or something very someone is suicidal, surely they have a mental health special is happening in London that provides some sort problem, but it depends on the definition of mental of insulation against suicide. We need to understand health. They almost certainly will not have a classified that. The age-standardised rate of death in London is mental illness. It is generally acknowledged that three 7.9 per 100,000, compared with Wales’s rate of 15.6. quarters of people who take their own life have never The gap is huge and must be addressed. been near mental health services. It would be wrong to assume a close working correlation—that if someone is The most active local authorities and those with the working to prevent mental health problems, they are highest rates of death from suicide in England are in the helping to prevent suicide. north-east, the south-west and the north-west, areas of The most worrying finding of all was that a third of social deprivation and high unemployment, and where local authorities in England had no suicide prevention the so-called economic recovery is not being felt. In action plan whatever. A third did not undertake suicide those areas, the all-persons rates of death are 13.8, audit work, and 40% had no multi-agency suicide prevention 12.5 and 12.3 respectively. On the whole, local authorities group. That is totally unacceptable. Mr Gray, you and I in those parts of the country are active, and the report have spent some time over the past couple of months commended their work. However, that raises new questions. looking at the importance of having a strategic plan We must look at what those active local authorities are and knowing what one is trying to achieve and the actually doing and how they are spending their time required outcomes. Across England, a third of local and effort. The importance of local initiatives, local authorities have no strategy—nothing at all. They are focus and local understanding in suicide prevention is doing nothing to prevent preventable deaths, and 40% recognised—we need to know the terrain, the population have no multi-agency suicide prevention group. and where the pressure points are—but we must also This does not require big money. It is not about examine the variation in what is being done across expensive drugs. It is about putting time and effort into England without apparent consistent reasons for the looking at what the problem is locally and how it can be strategic choices that are made. tackled, and then pulling together the agencies that can For example, in some areas, funding is put into work together to deliver a plan. That does not seem too helplines, such as the Samaritans and the Campaign big an ask to prevent an avoidable death, yet for a third Against Living Miserably—CALM. In others, it is put of local authorities in England it is too big an ask. That into training, such as applied suicide intervention skills is shocking. I hope that the Minister will approach training—ASIST—and in some into better data collection, those local authorities and say, “Things need to be such as on self-harm, which the Minister and I have better”. All Members whose local authorities do not discussed often. Other activities will have gone unreported. have such a plan and action group ought to be proactively With wide variability and without clear indication of telling them that they are wrong. the evidence on which the various initiatives are based, Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): I commend however, there are questions about which of those my hon. Friend and the all-party group for their work initiatives are more effective and why. We need to be on this issue. She speaks with great authority about the able to understand how our suicide prevention work is data for England, but what is her understanding of the working and the best way for local authorities to focus situation in Wales? their attentions. 317WH Local Suicide Prevention Plans4 MARCH 2015 Local Suicide Prevention Plans 318WH

[Mrs Moon] problems outside their normal crime reduction role has shown their leadership and initiative. The work that the The all-party group concluded that both Public Health police are now undertaking to draw up a national England and the national suicide prevention strategy process for responding to suicide is particularly welcome. advisory group should examine ways in which local Suicide has not been illegal in this country since 1961, authorities can share information about suicide prevention but it continues to carry a stigma, which we need to initiatives that have worked, in order to develop best tackle. We also need to give support to bereaved families; practice. In addition, central funding of research and to provide access to services that offer hope and a future evaluation studies into the methodologies used is necessary, for the suicidal; research in order to identify risks, best so that we can drill down to what is effective and why. In practice and awareness training that can prevent needless that way we can realistically make a difference with any deaths; and local authorities to accept their responsibilities necessary changes even at a time of economic austerity. to support the dedicated individuals who already work The Minister and I have talked about the importance across the four nations to prevent suicide. Without such of suicide audits and of timely information, so that individuals, the figures from two weeks ago would have people are not waiting for retrospective information to been so much worse. It is time for us to take suicide see if a problem is developing locally. Some authorities seriously. have a complete lack of clarity about audit work and that needs to be tackled. Much can be dealt with through better co-ordination with coroners and the 11.14 am provision of timely information by them, but I appreciate that the Minister might have difficulties with that, because The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman coroners fall within the purview of the Ministry of Lamb): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Justice, which is perhaps less focused on the timeliness Mr Gray, I think for the first time. I congratulate the of information from coroners to help suicide prevention hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) on securing work. That is something that I hope the all-party group the debate and, more importantly, on her leadership on will come back to in the next Parliament, because the the subject of suicide prevention. Nothing could be situation cannot be allowed to continue. more important, and any conversation with those going The rate of suicide in this country has generally been through bereavement following the death of a loved one on the rise since 2008. Last year the number of people through suicide makes us realise just how important it is taking their own life increased by 4%. Suicide remains for us to do better. The impact on those people’s lives is the leading cause of death for men aged between 20 and massive—the reverberations that she talked about are 34. Last year, 6,233 people in England and Wales died enormous. We can talk about the cold economic facts by suicide, which you could describe as a small number— and the cost of £1 million per suicide, but the reverberations and economic impact on the whole family and beyond are incalculable. Mr James Gray (in the Chair): indicated dissent. The hon. Lady also made a point about the suicide Mrs Moon: You would not—I am glad to hear that, rate varying so much around the country, and said that Mr Gray, thank you. in some areas it appears to be remarkably low. One of Each death by suicide is estimated to have an economic the issues that she and I have talked about is whether impact of around £l million. The reverberations across suicides are being accurately recorded in inquests. We communities, families and workplaces are devastating. have a completely shared view on the need, once and for The suicide rate is a key indicator for the health and all, to confront the issue of the burden of proof, which well-being of our country, our communities and our is an example of the continuing stigma on suicide. To way of life. Suicide is not some niche issue that can be secure a suicide verdict, it remains necessary to prove ignored by a local authority in its public health role the suicide “beyond reasonable doubt”; the only other because the numbers are too small. The issue is critical type of death in which that level of proof applies is and indicates how healthy and how vibrant our communities unlawful killing. That harks back to when suicide was a and our society are. criminal offence. It is high time that was changed. I have argued the case in government and will continue to do The debate is probably the last about suicide in this so—whether in or out of government—in the next Parliament, so I want to take the opportunity to make a Parliament, because the change has to happen. few final remarks. The Minister and his predecessor, the right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), I congratulate the all-party group on suicide and have been active in support of the all-party group and self-harm prevention on its work, and from the start I in suicide prevention work. I thank them for their want to pick up on the role of the police. In my work on support and acknowledge their work. Despite the failure mental health, I have been impressed by some inspiring of local authorities, active third-sector groups such as leadership in police forces across the country. In London, the Samaritans and individuals touched by suicide have the Metropolitan police have worked brilliantly with offered support to those struggling to cope with life and mental health trusts. In many areas, police are taking to bereaved families. Sports figures and other celebrities the lead in ending the scandal of people being put into have stepped forward to talk about their personal struggles police cells in the middle of a mental health crisis. I and things that have changed their lives. applaud them. The police and other front-line workers are trying to save lives and responding to desperate people on a daily Mrs Moon: The British Transport police have undertaken basis. During this Parliament, the role of the police in some particularly successful work in conjunction with particular in tackling mental health problems, suicide, the Samaritans on preventing deaths on the railway. missing children and a whole range of other social That, too, should be recognised. 319WH Local Suicide Prevention Plans4 MARCH 2015 Local Suicide Prevention Plans 320WH

Norman Lamb: I agree. Every person lost to suicide is As the hon. Lady will be aware, the Deputy Prime a tragedy, for loved ones, the community and society as Minister also shares my concerns, which is why in a whole. I was deeply concerned to read the latest January he announced our ambition for zero suicides. figures from the Office for National Statistics, which That ambition has already been adopted in some areas. showed a rise in the suicide rate. Back in 2012, when I I pay tribute to the brilliant leaders, including Adrian launched the suicide prevention strategy for England, James, a psychiatrist in Devon, and Joe Rafferty, the we knew that we could not afford to be complacent chief executive of Mersey Care, who have got organisations about suicide, and much remains to be done. The new in their areas to adopt the ambition and start developing challenges are now clear, and in the second annual plans to achieve a dramatic reduction in suicide, aiming report for the strategy, I called on services, communities for zero suicide. That is of course what we should aim and national agencies to be more ambitious than ever for, but it cannot be dictated from Whitehall. It requires before with regard to suicide prevention. real leaders to grasp the opportunity and to be ambitious. Collectively, I want us to tackle the widespread Together we need to create a culture in our country in assumption that suicides are inevitable for a certain which everyone can talk about their mental health proportion of people. That is absolutely not the case. I problems without fear or embarrassment. For that ambition have had discussions with Professor Louis Appleby, to be fulfilled, it is essential that every part of the NHS who is the foremost thinker and academic on suicide, commits to it. As I have mentioned, pioneering work in and he said that in his 25 years of experience he had Merseyside, the south-west and the east of England never looked at the details of a suicide without seeing means that health workers are starting to rethink how ways in which the death might have been prevented. they care for people with mental health conditions. The That encapsulates the challenge for public services and, Deputy Prime Minister called on the health service to beyond, for society as a whole. Suicide is not inevitable look at the work being done by those three pioneering for any individual. We need to get that point across. areas. Adopting those kinds of approaches across the country, with serious commitment, could save thousands In 2014, important steps were taken. In January of of lives. We need to raise our aspirations for mental that year, we published the consensus statement on health, although we need to be clear that zero suicide is information sharing and suicide prevention, signed by not a target but an ambition for organisations to aspire the Royal College of Psychiatrists, the Royal College of to. Nor is it about blame—that would be unhelpful for General Practitioners, the Royal College of Nursing, staff, for people using services and for communities and the British Psychological Society, the British Association families. It is about constant learning—Louis Appleby of Social Workers, the College of Social Work, the has described so many examples from over the course of Mental Health Network of the NHS Confederation his career—and, critically, applying that learning to and the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services. improve the system. The statement aims to improve information and support for families—that is critical—who are concerned about We know that many who take their own lives are not a relative who may be at risk of suicide, and to support in touch with mental health services, a point that the better those who have been bereaved as a result of hon. Lady frequently makes. That is why we need to suicide. apply the same ambition to primary care services and the wider community. The zero suicide initiative had its In January 2014, we also published “Closing the origins in Detroit, where a programme has successfully Gap: priorities for essential change in mental health”, reduced the rate of suicides in in-patient care, with not a which sets out 25 changes that we believe it is absolutely single suicide for a period of over two years. Although necessary for the NHS and the care system to make in the study on the claim has not been peer-reviewed, the the next few years to improve the lives of people suffering programme also claims to have reduced the suicide rate from mental ill health, and to reduce health inequalities. across the wider general population—that is the really It highlights how we will change the way front-line exciting thing. That is why we need to be willing to learn health services respond to self-harm, an issue that the constantly. We need to work together to challenge the hon. Lady has pursued vigorously, and how we improve stigma attached to mental ill health and change the way crisis care in mental health. society as a whole thinks about it, starting in local At the start of 2014, the National Suicide Prevention communities. Alliance was launched, facilitated by Samaritans and I read with interest January’s report by the all-party supported by Department of Health grant funding of group on suicide and self-harm. I know that the inquiry £120,000 over 2013-14 and 2014-15. In July, the Department into local suicide plans concluded that there are significant awarded a grant of £556,000 over three years to a gaps in the local implementation of the national suicide partnership between Samaritans and Cruse, the bereavement prevention strategy. I agree that that is a concern. As I counselling organisation, to increase support for those have said in writing to the hon. Lady, I am confident bereaved by suicide. Samaritans and Cruse will offer that the APPG report will be of great value at local, that support, working with organisations locally. regional and national levels. We know that it is at the I know, however, that we can still save far more lives. local level that the most effective suicide prevention It is a moral imperative that we take this issue seriously. activity will take place. I am happy to write to those As the hon. Lady will be aware from our previous local authorities that have nothing in place, and to copy discussions, I share her concerns about better suicide her into that correspondence. prevention. There have been a number of recent worrying Both the Department of Health and Public Health trends in suicide rates, such as the rise of new suicide England agree that even the areas with comparatively methods, such as using helium. The Government are low levels of suicide should aspire to do better. That is committed to improving mental health services as a why we have challenged services, communities and national whole and reducing the suicide rate. agencies to adopt the zero suicide ambition. I also agree 321WH Local Suicide Prevention Plans4 MARCH 2015 Local Suicide Prevention Plans 322WH

[Norman Lamb] and will also support local systems in developing and undertaking effective local suicide audits, a point that with the APPG report that timely and reliable data are a she raised. valuable suicide prevention tool. Public Health England We are also working with the National Suicide Prevention is working with police forces and local support agencies Alliance to help ensure that information is pulled together to pilot real-time surveillance of local suicides. The on its new website, which has been supported by grant primary aim of the pilots is to provide prompt information funding from my Department. We know that sharing to front-line local authority and NHS staff to enable local case studies is important, which is why we included them to respond to potential and real local clusters of a number in the second annual report in the suicide suicides, and to provide timely support to people bereaved prevention strategy. by suicide. Public Health England’s evaluation of the The annual report was written for people working in surveillance pilots will identify challenges to data collection local services, to pull together the key information that at a local level and identify best practice to overcome they need to implement the strategy locally. The second them. The evaluation of the pilots will be available by report on the strategy highlights the excellent work the summer. being done across sectors to prevent suicides, and sets The national mental health intelligence network is out where efforts need to be concentrated for the next developing a new profiling tool on suicide for release year. Local action, supported by national co-ordination, shortly, which will make available suicide rates and is essential to suicide prevention. The messages in the trends for the main age and gender groups at both local report are designed to help local areas focus on the most authority and clinical commissioning group level, so effective things that can be done to reduce suicides. The that there can be much more accountability. The tool report also highlights the APPG’s findings and encourages will provide data on high-risk groups that can be used local areas to use the detailed information from the to inform priorities for local interventions. inquiry in drafting their local suicide plans. All our work on suicide prevention is part of our I was pleased to see that the APPG welcomed Public wider commitment to give mental health services parity Health England’s guidance for developing local suicide of esteem and equality with physical health services. prevention action plans. The guidance will be updated Investment and achievements in bettering mental health later in the year and will incorporate best practice on services inevitably have a positive impact on suicide data collection from the surveillance pilots. The hon. prevention. If we make crisis response in mental health Lady will be aware that the guidance was published much better, so that people know how to get help at the after the all-party group’s audit took place; Public moment when they need it, that will do so much to help Health England will contact all its centres over the those people get through a moment of crisis. I thank the coming months to discuss activity in their areas and hon. Lady for pursing this issue so vigorously. track progress. Public Health England will publish further support for local authorities on identifying and responding 11.30 am to clusters and frequently used locations for suicides, Sitting suspended. 323WH 4 MARCH 2015 Broadband 324WH

Broadband Neil Parish: I am not going to get drawn into giving an exact answer to the hon. Gentleman. I shall come on to that issue later. BT is doing a good job in some areas, [SIR ALAN MEALE in the Chair] but it could do better in others; that is what we all want to see. However, we must recognise that, rightly or 2.30 pm wrongly, BT is a major player in delivery, and delivering broadband to all our businesses and residents, wherever Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): It is a great they are, is essential. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Alan. I welcome the Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy The Government have been ambitious in their plan to his place, and I thank Mr Speaker for allowing time to transform broadband in the UK, which has been for this vital debate. co-ordinated by Broadband Delivery UK. The Government’s This debate is about the management and delivery of roll-out of superfast broadband has reached more broadband, which covers a multitude of sins that I hope than 1 million homes and businesses across the UK. The we can examine today.Many right hon. and hon. Members £1.7 billion nationwide roll-out is firmly on track to have constituents who are not included in the existing extend superfast broadband to 95% of UK homes and broadband roll-out and businesses that are looking to businesses by 2017. The rate at which fibre technology is relocate if they cannot get broadband. Therefore, this is being rolled out under the programme is rapidly accelerating, a timely debate. I hope to use it to address some of our and up to 40,000 premises are gaining access every concerns about the national roll-out of broadband in week. A key part of our long-term economic plan is to the UK and the management of Broadband Delivery provide the digital tools that people and businesses need UK. I will make some civic remarks about the current to thrive. broadband delivery programme in Devon and Somerset However—there is always a however—the move to and the work of BT. online services is in serious danger of leaving thousands It has been more than 20 years since the UK Government of people in digital darkness. The current target of 95% published their first Command Paper that was available superfast broadband coverage by 2017 still leaves behind on the internet. Today, broadband is vital in accessing 5%. We must also ensure that we get to 95% by 2017. public services. Since July 2012, the Government have “The final 5%” is a misleading term, as it will not be committed to becoming digital wherever possible. The evenly distributed across the country.Some communities— Government Digital Service, which created the gov.uk particularly those in rural areas—are disproportionately website—the single point of entry to online services—has affected. More than 10% of the countryside is still provided firm leadership in the digital age, and it even without access to broadband in any form, and there are won the Design Museum’s “designs of the year” award 12,000 premises with no digital footprint whatever. in 2013. Putting public services online is not a cost-cutting As a member of the Select Committee on Environment, exercise, but a vital part of streamlining Government Food and Rural Affairs, I took part in the inquiry on services. It makes services easier for the public to use rural broadband provision and digital-only services. As and more responsive to their needs. I commend the our report made clear, the difficult geographical nature Government and the Minister on their work on leading of some communities must not be used as an excuse for the digital revolution. a lack of broadband or poor broadband speeds. Those Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): I challenges should encourage investment and innovation congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this urgent in new types of technology. and important debate. Will he deal in his speech with who is responsible for the fact that some areas are below Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): I join other Members others in getting superfast broadband? Huddersfield in congratulating my hon. Friend on securing this important and three other Yorkshire towns and cities, which are debate. He is right to praise what the Government have centres of this country’s manufacturing economy, are done so far, but he is also right to talk about the among the worst 10 areas, while the top 10 are mainly, growing digital divide. It is important that we get superfast although not all, in the south of England. Who does the broadband to the final percentage of rural communities. hon. Gentleman think is holding back some areas of Does he agree that, to get to those rural communities, the country? Will he pinpoint the barriers today? we need to embrace new wireless technology? Ultimately, fibre to the cabinet will not deliver to those communities. Neil Parish: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. Naturally, I do not know his area well. Broadband is delivered partly through the Government Neil Parish: My hon. Friend is exactly right. Our and partly through companies. There are schemes in experience in Devon and Somerset is that new technologies place in areas such as Devon and Somerset to connect have not been used quickly enough in the roll-out of rural broadband and rural users, and naturally I have broadband. BDUK is beginning to pick up and pilot had more experience of that. Certainly, the Government’s some new technologies, but more should have been programme aims to ensure that the cities he mentions done more quickly. One of the purposes of this debate are also provided with broadband, but I suspect that he is to say to the Minister and to BDUK that we must will be given an answer by the Minister. deliver broadband faster and look at new technologies. A lot of the technologies are already out there. For Mr Sheerman: The Government and previous example, smaller boxes can be put on to telegraph polls. Governments have done very well on this issue, so, I am not a technical man, but there are ways to deliver unusually for me, I am not berating the Government. broadband more quickly. I imagine that the problems in People keep saying that BT is responsible. Is BT holding Devon and Somerset are similar to those in Yorkshire, things back or not? so we need to work on them. 325WH Broadband4 MARCH 2015 Broadband 326WH

Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con): I am Neil Parish: I entitled this debate in a broad fashion, enjoying my hon. Friend’s speech. Does he agree that so it is right for my hon. Friend to raise that point. The the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for York black spots are not just in rural areas, as the hon. Outer (Julian Sturdy) is of the essence and that we will Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) also mentioned. not get to 100% without using the technologies that he I have a series of questions that I want the Minister to spoke about? Crucially, those facts were not only predictable answer at the end of the debate, but I hope that he is and predicted, but were fully known five years ago in taking note of that point; I know that he is working 2010, during the discussion about what kind of contract very hard on it. If someone is in an area where they should be let. It was known at the time that the introduction cannot get broadband, they are very frustrated, and of alternative players is a prerequisite for getting full when they have heard that packages have been put coverage. Does my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton together to deliver it, that infuriates them even more. and Honiton (Neil Parish) feel, as I do, rather let down We need to be very aware of that. by BT and, to some extent, the Government, given that they did not take account of those important facts five Mr Sheerman: Before the hon. Gentleman moves off years ago when they contracted with BT? black spots, may I just have one more bite at that? I understand the black spots and the rural dimension, but as this lovely graph shows, nine out of 10 of the Neil Parish: I thank the hon. Gentleman very much top-performing broadband innovations are in the south for his comments. He is right. What happened is that of England. It is the reverse in the north of England, the contracts—certainly, the Devon and Somerset contract, where the worst-performing areas are. This is not just which I know the most about—were far too secretive, so little black spots in the countryside; they are in major it was difficult for people to know exactly who was towns and cities. That is why we are so angry. going to get broadband and who was not and for other companies to come in and provide it. We are doing Neil Parish: I repeat that I am sure the Minister is better, and it is getting better—I am not here just to beat aware of that, and I hope that he can answer the hon. up BT—but we need firm and friendly criticism. We Gentleman’s question. He is right to raise that issue. My need to say, “Get on with it. You’ve got the contracts to constituency has many problems not only in the Blackdown deliver, so let’s have it done. If you are not going to be hills and on parts of Exmoor, but on the edge of towns able to deliver it, let’s know about it, and if we can get in as well, so this is not just about rural broadband. competition, all the better.” Anne Marie Morris: Does my hon. Friend share my Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): I thank further concern that many people in our very rural my hon. Friend for giving way; he is being most generous. communities work from home and whether businesses I wonder whether he shares my concern that, from my are in the programme is very much in the lap of the latest meeting with BT, I understand that the universal gods? As I understand it, in some local authorities, commitment to a minimum of 2 megabits per second business premises and industrial estates will be connected now no longer applies and that some local authorities as part of the programme, and in others, they will not. are trading off more fibre for not having to meet that If the economy and small businesses matter, surely that commitment. should not be an option.

Neil Parish: My hon. Friend raises an interesting Neil Parish: My hon. Friend raises an interesting point. Naturally, some areas may have the cables and point. Through some fibre optic systems, it is not possible cabinets, so it is much easier to deliver there. However, if to deliver the minimum 2 megabits, and we should have there is a difficult spot to deliver broadband in, with known about that sooner and action should have been lots of small businesses, we have to find a way to deliver taken sooner. However, I do not want to be too negative it. This is not just about businesses, but about our this afternoon; that is not in our interest as hon. Members residents. Broadband is very much part of our infrastructure, or that of our residents, wherever they are in the country. just as railways and roads are. We will be left behind if We have to say to BT, “You have got behind. Now move we are not connected, so that is the purpose of this forward much more quickly.” I think that it will, but its debate. I thank her for that intervention. feet need to be held firmly to the fire, so that it feels pain During the inquiry, we heard from BT that it believes in order to deliver. It is no good saying to someone that that the current target of 95% coverage by 2017 may 95% of the country has broadband if they live in an slip. Given the resources and the free rein that it has area in which 95% of people do not have it. In some been given, I hope that the Minister will impress upon areas, the figures are nearly as low as that. In my BDUK the need to hold BT’s feet over the hot coals to constituency, the figure is 22% at the moment, and that get the job done. The target for superfast broadband is over the whole constituency. has changed a number of times. The original date for completion was 2012. For our constituents to have Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): My hon. Friend confidence that their homes and businesses will get is being very generous in giving way. Although the focus superfast broadband, it is important that the targets for of this debate is primarily on rural broadband, does he broadband coverage are not changed again. If BT fails agree that there is a specific issue with urban broadband to achieve its targets, there should be a mechanism to black spots? BT and Openreach know where those hold it to account. That is very much what I want to see. black spots are, but they will not share them with constituency MPs. County councils often know, but will The Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy also not share them, and it would be useful if the (Mr Edward Vaizey): For my hon. Friend’s benefit, I tell Minister tackled that issue briefly later. him that we have never changed our targets. We got rid 327WH Broadband4 MARCH 2015 Broadband 328WH of an unambitious target of 2 megabits at the end of —£250 million broadband fund. However, my constituency 2012. We had an ambition, which I hope we will reach, of Tiverton and Honiton is ranked as the 611th worst of superfast broadband coverage of 90% by the end of constituency for broadband out of 650 constituencies. 2015, and because of the huge success of this programme, Only 33% of premises have high-speed broadband. A we have added a further target to get to 95% by the end large number of communities in my constituency, such of 2017. as Upottery, Stockland and Rousdon are being left in digital darkness. Some business owners in parts of Neil Parish: I have huge confidence in the Minister, Dunkeswell have told me that they may be forced to but as he can imagine, if someone is living in a constituency relocate because of the lack of reliable broadband. I such as mine, where about 70% or 80% of people are have been working with local campaigners, Graham not getting broadband, those figures do not mean an Long in Upottery and Rebecca Pow in Churchinford awful lot. Therefore, I urge him to ensure—I know that and Otterford. he will because he is such a wonderful Minister—that CDS has now published its procurement tender for they will immediately get their broadband tomorrow. I the next stage of the roll-out, to extend superfast broadband am being slightly facetious, but let me reiterate that the coverage as far as possible in Devon and Somerset, with purpose of this debate is not just to criticise, but to see the aim of getting to 100% coverage by 2020. I welcome whether we can do better. I am not criticising the the progress made in connecting more premises in Devon Government, but when there is a contract from BDUK and Somerset, but I am deeply disappointed that we are that has Government money, council money, business not farther along this road. Communities in my constituency money and, in fairness, money from BT, let us make should not have to wait until 2020 for broadband delivery. sure that it delivers on its promises. I do not buy the argument constantly put to me by BDUK that, “It’s all too difficult, Mr Parish.” It is not Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): I briefly intervene to say too difficult, because a contract was given and money that there is no such thing as Government money or has been provided to deliver in those difficult areas. The council money; it is all taxpayers’ money and that is why contract is there to provide exactly what we want— those responsible have to be held to account. broadband in our rural communities. Greater focus is needed on helping hard-to-reach areas and exploring Neil Parish: I stand corrected by the hon. Lady. It is innovative technologies. indeed our money that is being spent and we expect this service to be delivered. Mr Bacon: While my hon. Friend is on the subject of Connecting Devon and Somerset, can he say why he The National Farmers Union has warned that its thinks that CDS refused to consider compliant bids or members do not have the infrastructure connections to would-be bids from bidders who were proposing to enable fast enough broadband to comply with online provide 100% coverage? Government services, including complying with the new agriculture policy, because all the mapping now has to Neil Parish: I think that the argument has gone even be done online. I can understand that because of the as far as state aid rules and whether Brussels was need to map all the hedgerows, but it is essential that we involving itself in the letting of contracts and whether get broadband out to those businesses. being able to extend the existing contract with BT and The Federation of Small Businesses conducted research BDUK was the best way forward. Those types of argument in July 2014 that shows that 94% of small business have been used. I am not against BT or what BDUK is owners consider a reliable internet connection as critical doing, but I do feel that not enough competition has to the success of their businesses and that 14% of UK been brought into the system to keep BT and BDUK up small firms view the lack of a reliable broadband connection to the mark. as being their primary barrier to growth. That has been recognised by the Government, but this is again about Mr David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): Does delivery. As small firms become more reliant on a the hon. Gentleman agree that the issue in Devon and high-quality broadband connection to do business, that Somerset now is not so much the delivery of the original will become even more significant in future. contract, which is carrying on at its own pace—we are As the EFRA Committee’s report rightly noted, impatient, but it is happening—but the large areas in “2 Megabits per second (Mbps) is already an outdated figure, and our constituencies that will not be covered by that 10 Mbps is increasingly recommended as a suitable USC for contract and that need to catch up with the rest of the standard provision.” counties? I think that that will not be done through big The Government must reassess whether the current contracts. It will be done through small, individual universal service commitment is still valid and right. contracts, with new technologies such as wi-fi, rather than this approach, which I think will fail many people I would like to get a little more parochial. The Connecting in rural areas. Devon and Somerset programme that covers my constituency is on track to deliver superfast broadband Neil Parish: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his to 90% of premises across Devon and Somerset by the intervention. He may well be right. One problem that end of 2016, up from 64% overall when the programme we have with these large contracts—the situation is began. The programme is supported by a £32 million getting a little better—is that people do not actually investment from BDUK. know where the broadband will be delivered. If there is I am pleased that the Department for Culture, Media an alternative system—satellite, wireless or whatever— and Sport announced on 25 February 2014 an additional people do not necessarily know whether to put private £22.75 million for rural broadband in Devon and Somerset funds into it, because they do not know whether BDUK from the Government’s—from the taxpayer, from us all will actually deliver it to their area. This is the frustrating 329WH Broadband4 MARCH 2015 Broadband 330WH

[Neil Parish] It applies not just in my constituency, but in many other urban areas up and down the country. It is the basic part of what we are doing. We have all worked hard problem that Government schemes and funding across the parties to get money. The MPs in Devon and arrangements do not apply to areas where, it is believed, Somerset all signed the letters to get the money and we superfast broadband can be deployed commercially and delivered the money and have the contract, yet individual therefore does not need to be subsidised. However, what residents are not getting the broadband. Naturally, they then happens is that BT—it normally is BT—decides do not like all these figures being bandied about for how that it is commercially unviable to provide superfast much is being delivered if they do not have broadband broadband in certain areas, and nothing seems to change themselves. to make that move a little more quickly. It is Catch-22: I understand that Connecting Devon and Somerset these areas are commercially viable, so they do not get chose the route that it did because of the lack of bids the subsidy—the financial arrangements—but we are and the concern over the state aid deadline, but I believe told that it is commercially unviable for the market to that more could have been done to open the market. At provide in those areas. national level, there should have been more work to I have lots of examples from my constituency. You prevent one company from gaining such a monopoly on will be relieved to hear that I will not go through them publically funded broadband roll-out as BT has achieved. all today, Sir Alan, but they involve some incredibly densely Given the impact of flooding and sea damage on the populated areas. Quite often in new build developments west country’s transport infrastructure, the provision of of hundreds of flats, it is for some reason not regarded high-quality rural broadband has never been more as commercially viable to provide superfast broadband. important to the resilience of the south-west and its Of course, there are business locations in the area as communities and businesses. well. We find instances in which the cabinets are there, I have a number of questions that I am sure the but there is no indication of when superfast broadband Minister will be keen to address. Does he believe that will be provided. Even more frustratingly, we have a BT is providing value for money? I think that that is a number of locations where the fibre-optic cable is in the very important question for the simple reason that I street, running past particular houses, blocks of flats want to see everyone get broadband. I accept that some and blocks of offices, but there is no indication whether areas are very difficult to get to, but surely that is what those properties will actually get superfast broadband, these contracts are let for. We have to make absolutely although someone down the street will obviously do so. sure that we are getting value for money. In Edinburgh city centre, the heavy concentration of Will the Government re-examine the universal service commercial activity means that the residential properties commitment of 2 megabits? What work is the Minister’s are relatively dispersed, so again it has not been regarded Department doing to ensure that survey information is as commercially viable to provide superfast broadband made publically available and that BT is not hamstringing to those properties. There is something wrong when local authorities with spurious confidentiality agreements? houses in the centre of some of our most concentrated What work are the Government doing to pilot new urban areas still do not have a clear date for obtaining technology to reach the hardest-to-reach areas? Finally, superfast broadband. I have raised the issue time and will the Minister examine ways of making BT much again with various levels of government—UK Government, more accountable? Scottish Government and local government—and all I seem to get is an assurance that it will be all right 2.55 pm eventually, but the problems persist. I have raised some concerns with the Minister in the past, but I urge him to Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ look again at some of the cases in my constituency. I Co-op): I congratulate the hon. Member for Tiverton have had more cases over the past few weeks, and I am and Honiton (Neil Parish) on securing the debate. I happy to provide him with the details. want to give a different perspective on the issue of I also want the Minister and his counterparts in the broadband coverage, coming as I do from one of the devolved Administrations to look at ways of ensuring most concentrated urban areas in Scotland. At first that as many properties as possible in the areas in which sight, it might seem strange that someone from a contracts are rolled out have the opportunity to access constituency that has superfast broadband to a degree superfast broadband. That should not be beyond the that colleagues would be envious of would complain wit of Government, regulators or companies. If the about lack of coverage, but the fact is that even in my contractual arrangements for roll-out are too far advanced very urban constituency, many areas, covering thousands in many parts of the country, as I suspect they may be, it of homes and businesses, do not have superfast broadband should be the responsibility of Government to look at at the moment and do not seem to have any prospect of schemes to fill the gaps. We want to find some way of getting it any time soon. ensuring that not spots in urban areas, just as in rural The projection is that, by 2017, 98% of people will areas, get superfast broadband. That is important not have superfast broadband. That sounds very good and, only because people enjoy having it, but because it is, if it happens, I will obviously be pleased about it, but in many cases, essential for business, essential for many of my constituents who are currently affected are communication and essential in a world in which more somewhat sceptical as to whether that figure will actually and more of the transactions of everyday life—including be reached and whether some of the current not spots contact with Government, both local and central—are in my constituency—they also exist in other urban carried out online. People who do not have access to areas—will have that level of provision. superfast broadband will lose out, and that needs to be We have the problems that I have described in urban addressed in urban areas as well as in rural areas, which areas such as mine because of a fundamental flaw in the have different problems but which suffer from the issues arrangements for the roll-out of superfast broadband. that affect us all. 331WH Broadband4 MARCH 2015 Broadband 332WH

3.1 pm arranging for their own parishes to go online through some alternative to BT. Just when they have been about Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): I am afraid that I do not to hit the button and go for it, BT has suddenly come share the optimism of my colleague the hon. Member back to them and said, “Actually, we are going to do for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) about what will your bit after all.” That is not very competitive. If BT is happen in Devon and Somerset. The Government’s not going to be up front, it is not fair for it to come back own figures show that only 41% of residents and businesses to communities that are trying to make their own in Somerset have access to superfast broadband. That arrangements and say, “Don’t do that, because we are goes nowhere near meeting the needs of local people or coming in anyway.” That is slightly anti-competitive rural businesses in my constituency. Effective, reliable practice, and it does not look good, even if it is the and affordable broadband is essential in the 21st century, truth. and it is fairly shaming that we can in no way compare ourselves with places such as Korea, which seems to The Department for Environment, Food and Rural have magnificent broadband coverage. It is a bit of a Affairs and various other parts of Government, such as shame to have to say that. [Interruption.] Did the Minister the Rural Payments Agency, have moved to digital. want to say something? However, according to the figures that we have been given by the Country Land and Business Association, Mr Vaizey: I did, but I have changed my mind. I am more than 10% of the countryside is without access to just going to check the facts. any broadband, and 12% has no digital footprint whatsoever. The trouble is that our suppliers expect Tessa Munt: Okay. Effective, reliable and affordable farm businesses to be fully interactive online. Even broadband is essential to keep people connected and though the basic infrastructure is not in place and ensure that our rural economy prospers. I do not understand Government-funded schemes are not delivering to remote how providing superfast rural broadband appears to and difficult-to-connect communities, they still have to mean strengthening the broadband in towns, where we use the various basic internet systems. Farmers find it have some coverage already, while coverage peters out difficult to innovate and to use new farming technology as we move into rural areas. Surely, the whole point of and software, which has to be downloaded from the rural broadband should have been to start in areas internet. They also find it difficult to comply with other where there is little or no coverage and work back Government regulations by, for example, submitting towards the places that have at least some coverage. The VAT returns, getting vehicles taxed and processing animal whole thing seems to be back to front, as far as I am tagging. concerned. In my constituency, accessing the internet is also vital The Minister is always very optimistic and loyal for jobseeker’s allowance claimants. Those who are about this project, and I would be delighted to share his looking for work, for whatever reason, have to show optimism, but I have no idea how the final 59%, let that they have applied for every possible job opportunity alone the final 5%, of people in Somerset will be anywhere online. If they do not have internet access, it is absolutely near getting some sort of decent service by 2020. The impossible to meet the criteria, and their benefits may idea of getting to 90% by 2015 and 95% by 2017 is an be stopped. Some of my constituents have to travel utter dream. I would also like the Minister to tell me some distance to use the internet. They have to go to what superfast broadband is. Every time I have asked Bridgwater or to Wells, and there is little public transport. BT the question, it has fluffed the answer. I want to For people who are challenged financially and have know what people in my patch can expect by way of an little money because they have no job, but who are upload speed and a download speed. trying to find themselves work, it is incredibly difficult to compete and get the jobs that they need and want. Mr Vaizey: I am now ready to intervene. May I briefly put on the record that as far as I am aware, 21,000 premises Mr Heath: Is not much of the problem caused by the in the hon. Lady’s constituency will be covered under hugely deceptive nature of percentages? We talk about a phase 1, which is getting to 90%? That is effectively the large percentage being covered without realising that in same amount as were covered commercially. The figure Somerset and the surrounding area, that means the of 21,000 and the term superfast broadband are audited, fleshpots of Taunton and Exeter, and probably places so we do not say that those premises are reached unless such as Tiverton and Honiton. That relatively small they are getting speeds of 24 megabits a second. percentage of people covers a large area of my constituency and that of my hon. Friend, and they are the people Tessa Munt: I thank the Minister for that clarification. who do not get broadband and do not get mobile phone If he has information about where that will happen, coverage worth having. In fact, they do not get anything, that leads me to my next question. Every time I have and it is time that they were properly served. asked where the not spots are, I have been given all kinds of maps showing different colours. Most of my Tessa Munt: I tend to agree. Rather than looking at constituency is under consideration, or somebody is percentages, we should look at people. Back in the looking at the plumbing, or whatever. It seems unlikely 1980s—I can remember all of this—we had British Rail that anyone will be able to make any headway in those trying to move trains from A to B and forgetting that its areas. If the Minister is that sure, however, I am delighted. job was to move passengers from A to B. Exactly the I would be very grateful to have that information same lack of focus on people has led us to where we are from him so that people who have no coverage can with broadband. make alternative arrangements. I have heard reports, When my children were in senior school, they found from my part of the country and others, of parish the internet essential because they had to access their councils attempting to find out what is going on, and homework online. When they were at college, they had 333WH Broadband4 MARCH 2015 Broadband 334WH

[Tessa Munt] My next point relates to the consequences of using the closed tender option in the Connecting Devon and to send all their submissions online to their tutors, and Somerset bid. It is likely that all the confidentiality they have to do exactly the same thing now that they are clauses required by BT, which shrouded the phase 1 at university. It is difficult for someone who has no programme, will carry straight over into phase 2. There broadband and who lives some distance from the library, can, therefore, be no demonstration of value for money if they cannot drive or do not have a car and there are to the public. BT will not invest in the programme to no buses. How the hell is anybody meant to be able to take coverage above 95%. Its focus must be on shareholder do these things? value, so there is no incentive for it to do that. People I have a wonderful constituent who is 94 years old, will not know whether they will get faster broadband who moved into Cheddar and found herself waiting under phase 2 until BT sees fit to tell them. Businesses weeks and weeks for some sort of connection. She used and individuals cannot plan their futures on that basis. Skype, Twitter and Facebook to keep in contact with Another aspect is the number of constituents who members of her family, who were all over the world. We contact me about the allied organisation, BT Openreach, must remember that in order to keep older members of and I have spoken to the Minister before about my the community living in their own homes, it is absolutely dismay at its pretty appalling service. In my village, lines essential they can access services such as having their went into an office and shop connection, but giving the heavy shopping brought in from the supermarket by broadband connection some life seems to require a ordering online. They can still pop out to the shops bloke coming 20 miles across Somerset to flick a switch. every day and do the small items of shopping. Using the When he fails to turn up, and businesses are not online, internet in such a way will help to keep them in their as they need to be, that makes things difficult, because own homes. there is no way for people to contact someone who can Many of the businesses in my area are tourism-based, tell them what is happening. and if they do not have a reliable online connection and We have been talking about digital darkness, and I cannot use broadband at the right speed, they do not will finish on a slightly lighter note—actually, it is not a have a competitive edge. It is also difficult to buy, sell lighter note, but something that filled me with horror. and communicate if the connection drops out all the Last week, I asked the Prime Minister what he was going time. Without a decent broadband connection, life is so to do about the 41% coverage in Somerset. He told me: much harder. “All local councils now have searchable websites”—[Official I wrote to the Competition and Markets Authority Report, 25 February 2015; Vol. 593, c. 318.] asking it to look into BT’s apparent refusal to join an He said people can therefore see when they can expect open bidding process to increase high-speed fibre broadband to get broadband in their area by going online, which is access in Somerset. There is slight confusion over this, brilliant—if they are online. but it looks as though BT has held back information that might have enabled other organisations to join the 3.15 pm bidding process. By saying that that information is Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ commercially sensitive, it has prevented anybody from Co-op): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, being involved in tendering for the phase 2 superfast Sir Alan. I warmly congratulate the hon. Member for extension programme. Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) on securing the debate. Mr Bacon: I have no doubt the hon. Lady is right that I have been very focused on this issue in the last five BT has engaged in anti-competitive behaviour, and years, first as a member of the Public Accounts Committee, broadband is now a regular source of complaint among which has looked in detail at the rural broadband residents and businesses in my surgeries in Norfolk. programme and made a number of criticisms of it. I However, is the situation not even worse? BT inflated its have also been to a series of debates—in fact, so many budgets for the BDUK rural broadband programme, that I have seen more of the Minister this last fortnight thereby obtaining more state aid than it was entitled to. than I have of my husband. That is not a joke, sadly, At the same time, it invested less in the programme than much as I like the Minister. it communicated to the Government. In my constituency, I have constant complaints from Tessa Munt: The hon. Gentleman has taken the words businesses and residents about connection times, speeds, right out of my mouth. I hope the Minister will be in a unreliability of service and, of course, cost. I represent position to address our concerns. one of the most urban areas of the UK. We are a powerhouse for the future of the tech economy. We have Mr Vaizey: Iamhappyto. frequent visits from the occupants of Nos. 10 and 11 Downing street. The Prime Minister has dubbed my Sir Alan Meale (in the Chair): Order. Minister, quite a area tech city. There is, therefore, great Government few Members want to speak, and the debate should not pride in the area, but we have pretty poor broadband. be turned into a question and answer session between When I complain, I am told, “It’s okay: two thirds of you and one Back Bencher or another. It is much more businesses in Shoreditch have a connection.” However, important that we have as full a debate as we can. In the that means that a third of businesses in this critical area generous amount of time that remains, you will get an do not. opportunity to reply to all the questions put by Members The House of Lords Digital Skills Committee has on both sides of the Chamber. now joined the cacophony on this issue. Given that the Committee is in the other place, it is worth putting on Tessa Munt: I am pleased that the Minister is so keen, record its very first recommendation, which is about but I take your point, Sir Alan. hard infrastructure: 335WH Broadband4 MARCH 2015 Broadband 336WH

“We are concerned about the pace of universal internet coverage I have some questions for the Minister and would and the delivery of superfast broadband. In particular, we find it welcome answers in writing if he cannot answer now. As unacceptable that, despite Government efforts, there are still part of the approach to improving access to and roll-out urban areas experiencing internet ‘not-spots’, which is hampering of superfast, the Government have put out an advertising universal coverage and the UK’s international competitiveness.” programme, which—paraphrasing only slightly—says, It goes on to say, and I agree, that broadband should be “Superfast broadband: it’s coming—would you like it?” seen as a utility—something that is necessary, just as I would like to know the cost of the advertising programme, water and electricity are. given that the Government have made great play of A report by Digital Business First says that 10 million cutting back on advertising. How are they measuring UK premises—homes and businesses—are unable to success? What discussions has the Minister had with the access superfast broadband. As the hon. Member for Department for Communities and Local Government Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath) rightly highlighted, on planning rules to make it easier for other technologies there are lies, damned lies and statistics. A few percentages to get into urban and rural areas and deliver superfast here and there do not reveal the real trouble and pain speeds, where the cable and fibre optics will not deliver? that many businesses and residents face. More 1 gigabit cities should be an aspiration of both Let me give just a couple of examples. A resident in the Government and the Opposition, so that things do the Victoria park area, on the edge of Hackney, near not fall apart upon a change of Government. I hope Tower Hamlets, worked from home. However, his we can be united in our aspiration. We need more broadband service was so poor that he moved out of collaborations such as that in York between the far-sighted Hackney to get better coverage. I will not go into the Labour city council and TalkTalk, which wants to roll numbers of businesses that have had problems, but I out superfast in its own way. It is important to give local echo the comments of the hon. Member for Wells authorities power over such contracts. More could be (Tessa Munt) about the poor quality of service. It takes done to strengthen the arm of councils that want to a long time to get an Openreach engineer to visit. The follow that lead. Perseverance Works on Hackney road is a consortium—a We need more competition in the market. That involves co-operative, in effect—of businesses, and it took ages planning issues. Changes are needed to planning law to to get an engineer to visit it. When an engineer does require landlords to provide what I would describe in visit, they do a survey, but it does not seem to belong to simple terms as reasonable access for the installation of the customer, even though they paid for it. It is really technology, particularly on high buildings. That would difficult to find out exactly what is happening—the lack allow satellite and mobile superfast, for example, to fill of transparency about the service is poor, and it really the gaps. That might be more challenging in rural areas, needs to be improved. and there might be other planning issues to do with The Public Accounts Committee is now seeing the rights of way across land, particularly agricultural land. next phase of rural broadband being rolled out. Some Certainly in urban areas, however, it would be a fairly real alternatives are being proposed. Finally, to pick up simple solution. All that it would require would be the point from the hon. Member for South Norfolk joined-up Government action and real will, not just on (Mr Bacon), alternative technologies are being promoted, the part of the Minister, who, as the hon. Member for albeit very late in the day, and only, of course, after the Wells said, always comes to our debates very optimistic bulk provision has been cherry-picked. The cost envelope about the programme, but on the part of his colleagues for the more difficult-to-reach areas is that much higher, in other Departments. They also need to take the matter which makes it much harder to deliver services. seriously. Will the Minister outline what conversations he has with Ministers in other Departments? Can he I said I represent Shoreditch, which is an international reassure us that they take the issue at least half-seriously? hub of tech progress, but we are falling behind. Shoreditch Are they, as I hope, stepping up to the mark to make is, frankly, a national embarrassment, when we consider sure our constituents no longer have to suffer the ignominy the place it occupies in the world. It is second only to of the supposed superfast broadband programme, which silicon valley in terms of the investment going into tech is not delivering? businesses, but broadband speeds, and upload speeds in particular, are very poor. 3.23 pm Tech City News does a weekly video round-up, which I recommend to the Minister, as it discusses cutting Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): It is a pleasure to edge digital technology around the world and in Shoreditch. serve again under your chairmanship, Mr Meale. I I have mentioned it before, but it is worth emphasising congratulate the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton that the former editor, who has just moved on, says that (Neil Parish) on securing the debate. The roll-out of it would be filmed and taken to his house to be uploaded, superfast broadband has been a priority of his since his because the speeds around Old Street roundabout were election to the House in 2010, and it is to his credit that too slow, and it took too long. If that is not a national he has been pushing it on behalf of his constituents, embarrassment I do not know what is. I am always and businesses in his area—and talking about the national embarrassed to repeat that story in Parliament, as I do issue as well. not want to dump on my area, but it is time the The debate has been excellent and is very important. Government took that seriously. Perhaps the next time We have heard that broadband roll-out is an issue that the Prime Minister and Chancellor visit, they will be affects not only Devon and Somerset, and rural areas, able to celebrate success, rather than tripping over failures. but urban areas, too. We have heard about problems in In South Korea the aim is a national 5G wireless Edinburgh, Hackney and Huddersfield. However, I want network. We need to look for the same. We should aim to mention the most important place of all—Hartlepool. for more one-gigabit cities. There is some progress, and I live in the town of Hartlepool, and not in an outlying some companies are keen on achieving it. village. Given that Hartlepool is the centre of the universe, 337WH Broadband4 MARCH 2015 Broadband 338WH

[Mr Iain Wright] excellent and knowledgeable contribution, there are connectivity problems in a place that is often seen as the it strikes me as odd that it takes me 10 minutes to national centre of the digital economy. The city’s average download something from iTunes. The idea of watching broadband speed ranked 26th out of 33 European the new series of “House of Cards” on Netflix is a pipe capitals. London has an average speed of 25.44 megabits dream that I could not possibly think about. BT has per second, whereas Bucharest, at No. 1 in Europe, has said it is because my neighbours and I are too far away speeds of 80.14 megabits per second. As we have heard from the cabinet—therefore it is not acceptable for us to in the debate, and as I have mentioned, the UK suffers have superfast broadband. That cannot be right for from internet not spots, in which businesses cannot constituents and households in an urban area. However, connect and therefore cannot compete and grow. things can be even worse than that: this morning I was The country suffers far too much from patchy coverage. speaking to my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford I think my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and Urmston (Kate Green) about this debate, and she and Shoreditch has already mentioned last month’s said that businesses in Trafford Park, the largest industrial excellent report of the Digital Skills Committee in the estate in Europe, are still waiting for superfast broadband. other place, but it is worth referring again to such an Someone from one of the businesses there told her that excellent report and recommendation. It made it clear they were paying 10 times the price, for a fifth of the that the pace of universal internet coverage and the average speed. delivery of superfast broadband should be a matter of That cannot be the right approach, because broadband concern; universal coverage and the UK’s international is essential for the future competitiveness of the country. competitiveness are being hampered. Yet as the National We are in the midst of a third industrial revolution Audit Office set out, the Government’s rural broadband based on digital technology. The digital revolution is project will be delivered 22 months late. Only nine local already transforming the way commerce is transacted, projects will, it is estimated, meet the programme’s social interaction conducted, and public services provided target of supplying 90% of premises with superfast to citizens. It will continue to do that—indeed, its broadband by May 2015. The Government now say impact on society and the economy will accelerate. It that the date could be December 2017, but BT has stated will affect skills, employment and other things. It is not that the programme may sufficient for firms to say, “We will have an add-on “end up being in 2018”. digital strategy.” Digitisation and technology will be Why has that been allowed to happen? intrinsic to everything that the economy, Government and society do. If we in this country are to enjoy rising That question was also asked by the hon. Member for living standards and improved productivity, and to South Norfolk (Mr Bacon) who, like my hon. Friend maintain and enhance competitiveness in the global the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch, is an economy, we must have the ambition of being the leading excellent member of the Public Accounts Committee. digital nation, both in skills and in hard infrastructure, Why have the Government structured the policy and which is crucial. the institutional architecture in that particular way? What did the Government do to ensure that the targets In many respects the UK is well placed to achieve were achieved? Why was action not taken sooner to that. We are presently ranked ninth among the leading ensure that delivery times were met? global digital economies by the World Economic Forum’s global competitiveness index. We have a culture of On phase 2 of the rural broadband roll-out, why did innovation and invention, and we have a digitally savvy the Government not prepare a comprehensive and separate population, in many respects, but we must go further, business case, based on the findings of phase 1? The and we could do more. It seems to me that in 2015 the Minister will be aware of the NAO’s progress update on country is at a tipping point with respect to what we the delivery of the programme, which was published need to do to enhance our competitiveness in the digital some five weeks ago. Is he concerned about the NAO’s world. The countries that rank higher than the UK are comments that phase 2, currently at the procurement Switzerland, Singapore, the US, Finland, Germany, stage, will face limited competition, given that BT is the Japan, Hong Kong and the Netherlands. All of those only participant in the BDUK procurement framework? are our competitors. We have heard time and again about BT’s role in the In a telling speech, the hon. Member for Wells (Tessa process. The Minister will be aware of the remarks by Munt) mentioned South Korea. As my hon. Friend the the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee following Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) the publication of the Committee’s report on the roll-out mentioned, too, it announced last year that it would of the rural broadband programme: deliver a national 5G wireless network offering speeds “The Government has failed to deliver meaningful competition of 1 gigabit per second by 2020. It is striking that the in the procurement of its £1.2 billion rural broadband programme, nations I mentioned have all invested in digital skills as leaving BT effectively in a monopoly…BT’s monopoly position should have been a red flag for the Department. But we see the a priority, but have also prioritised digital infrastructure, lack of transparency on costs and BT’s insistence on non-disclosure with a particular emphasis on driving universal access agreements as symptomatic of BT’s exploiting its monopoly and usage. We have heard time and again that digital position to the detriment of the taxpayer, local authorities and businesses can locate anywhere in the world, and that those seeking to access high speed broadband in rural areas.” they will often go where connectivity is amenable; but On that basis, and given the comments made by hon. we have also heard that 10 million UK premises are Members this afternoon, does the Minister really think unable to access superfast broadband. that we have a healthy, competitive market that promotes For all the much-vaunted notion of London as a tech good competition and encourages new entrants, who hub and Shoreditch as tech city, as my hon. Friend the will drive down costs, drive up quality and access, and Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch said in her improve our country’s competitiveness? 339WH Broadband4 MARCH 2015 Broadband 340WH

Given the structure of BDUK, and given the structure (Mark Lazarowicz) for his long contribution, and I of the process introduced by the Government, why were thank the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch options other than that monopoly position not considered? (Meg Hillier) for spreading the rumour about us, which Is the Minister concerned that the Government’s handling will no doubt spread like wildfire thanks to the availability of the process means that a single private company will of 4G in and around Westminster. I am grateful for the be able to reinforce its already strong position in the interventions by the hon. Member for Somerton and market, to the detriment of new competition? What will Frome (Mr Heath), to whom I am paying homage with he do to ensure that the excellent local initiatives that my extensive facial hair. Of course, I am always grateful we have heard about—the City of York council and for the response by the spokesman for the official TalkTalk initiative being a particularly good example—are Opposition, the hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright), encouraged as much as possible? We need local, innovative a man for whom I have the utmost admiration, even if I solutions that address specific local circumstances. do not always agree with him. I am interested in the important question of who To utter that terrible phrase that tends to kibosh Tory owns national infrastructure assets. What happens to Ministers, I will begin by going back to basics. I will set the £1.7 billion public sector investment, in terms of out in some detail exactly what the Government set out BT’s assets and infrastructure? Is the Minister content to achieve, and I will try to do that in as non-partisan a that, in this case, vast amounts of taxpayers’ money has fashion as possible, despite the fact that this may be our been used to improve a company’s balance sheet? We last broadband debate before Dissolution. We came have heard about the importance of transparency. What into government with the previous Government having is he doing to improve the transparency of data, access set a target of 2 megabits of universal broadband by and cost base? I fully respect “commercial in confidence” 2012, which was perhaps a perfectly respectable target agreements, but why are non-disclosure requirements at the time. The then Secretary of State for Culture, allowed? How do they promote competition? What will Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for he do to change that? South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), looked at that target and I have specific points about individual funds established said that it was not ambitious enough and that 2 megabits by the Government. How much of the £20 million rural was not the kind of speed that people would expect to community broadband fund has been spent, and what receive as the programme rolls out, and it is fair to say has it achieved? Similarly, what proportion of the super- that his prediction was absolutely right. Indeed, one or connected cities programme has been allocated, and two of the rural lobbying groups, possibly including the what take-up has resulted from that programme? Country Land and Business Association, are now effectively This has been an important debate, because connectivity asking for a universal commitment of 10 megabits. for our businesses and homes will be crucial in the Most people now regard 7 or 8 megabits as the kind of 21st century economy, which will be led by a digital broadband speed they need to do what one might call revolution. We should see broadband as a national the basics, even though some people argue that 1 or utility, just as electricity, water and transport were in 2 megabits is what people need to use the iPlayer. previous decades. Does the Minister need to think in a We had to find money for the programme and get wider and more co-ordinated way across Whitehall to state aid approval before letting the contract. We found ensure that happens? Do planning and access to land also £530 million from the TV licence fee, some of which need to be altered to ensure that we can highlight and was originally set aside for the digital television switchover, prioritise this important function of future competitiveness? on which there was an underspend. We knew the core Other countries are speeding ahead with connectivity, figure, and we decided that it should be match funded at the cost of our own competitiveness, prosperity and by local authorities, obviously not just to increase the social inclusion. available pot of money but to give local authorities Time and again, we have heard questions from hon. ownership of the programmes. That was a conscious Members about value for money, accessibility, connectivity, decision, and some people might say that it was a wrong availability and the services that businesses and constituents decision, but I think it has proved to be right that local have received. I hope that the Minister will take on authorities will own and co-fund the contracts and will board the serious questions that have been asked today, be partners in delivering in local areas. and I hope he will be able to address them in the time We can dip into other pots of money. European remaining. money, for example, has been important in certain areas, and let us not forget the contribution of the company that eventually won the contracts—BT. This morning I 3.34 pm looked at figures showing that some £410 million is The Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy being spent on delivering rural broadband in Scotland, (Mr Edward Vaizey): It is a pleasure to serve under your with £120 million of that coming from BT. BT is not chairmanship, Sir Alan. I apologise for my Tigger-like simply an open mouth into which taxpayers’ gold is behaviour when I kept intervening earlier in the debate. being poured; BT is making its own contribution. As you rightly predicted, I now have plenty of time to I agree with all hon. Members representing rural set out the Government’s stall in response to the excellent areas who have spoken today—the hon. Members for contributions that we have heard. Hackney South and Shoreditch and for Edinburgh I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton North and Leith represent urban constituencies—and and Honiton (Neil Parish) for securing this important recognise that leaving broadband delivery to the marketplace debate and for making his points in such a fair and is not enough. It does not make commercial sense for a balanced manner. I also thank the hon. Member for private company to invest many millions of pounds Wells (Tessa Munt) for her usual forthright remarks. I upfront when it is unlikely to get a return on its investment thank the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith because, frankly, there simply are not enough people in 341WH Broadband4 MARCH 2015 Broadband 342WH

[Mr Edward Vaizey] “does seem to have been some progress, which we…welcome”. Coming from her, that is a massive vote of confidence. rural areas to take up broadband services. A subsidy was needed. We made it clear from the outset that, with Tessa Munt: Will the Minister answer a simple question that money and this scheme, we thought that superfast for me? He has already talked about return on investment. broadband speeds could reach 90% of the population. If people have contracted with a company to receive Again, with the benefit of hindsight, people might broadband at a certain speed but they then suffer slow criticise us and ask, “Why didn’t you go for 100% from speeds, poor connections and constant drop-out, they the very beginning?” However, we went for 90%. In receive no return on their investment. How can they get effect, we thought that was achievable and realistic; it their bills adjusted to reflect what they receive, because was a promise that we could keep. The programme has there is a definite variance between what they contracted gone well. for and what they get?

Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): I Mr Vaizey: That is an interesting point. If I wanted to pay tribute to the Minister for his commitment to the dodge the hon. Lady’s question, I would say that that project and the investment of £57 million in the Welsh was a contractual matter between BT and its customer, roll-out. However, there were always people who were or indeed any other provider and its customer, but it is not to be connected to rural broadband and in Wales an important point that I shall take seriously. We have that was set out under postcodes. In the rural areas, already tackled relatively straightforward issues, such as postcodes cover communities that are spread widely stopping companies from advertising their speeds as the and some people have not been able to get broadband fastest speed that could be possibly received. We have even when it was said that it was available. A £1,000 asked them to advertise only the average speed that grant has been offered—in England I think it is called people are likely to receive. However, I want to look at the voucher scheme—for those who cannot get broadband, whether we can have different levels of contracts for but people in postcodes that were told they would get people who clearly receive slower speeds. rural broadband now cannot apply for the £1,000 to get access through satellite or some other technology. Does Tessa Munt: I thank the Minister very much indeed. the Minister see how that is frustrating for constituents Will he do that in the next few weeks, while he has still of mine and, indeed, many other people? got the power? Mr Vaizey: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s frustration. As he knows, I was recently in his constituency, Mr Vaizey: I know that the hon. Lady has nothing sitting in a digger, trying to do my bit to deliver superfast but admiration for my abilities. That is certainly something broadband to his constituents. From looking at the that I want to look at and, given that I said that in an figures and as I understand it, no commercial coverage open debate, she can be assured that we will look at and of any kind was planned for Brecon and Radnorshire, discuss that with BT and others. but under this scheme some 26,000 people should get Let me go back to basics—it is good to see one of the superfast broadband by the end of 2016 who otherwise leading members of the Public Accounts Committee, would not have done. However, I will come to the issue my hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon), of people who feel as though they are in one category returning to his seat, as I have already prayed in aid the and cannot self-help, as it were, or apply to other National Audit Office. No doubt, he will seek to correct schemes. that position.

Neil Parish: One of my questions—the Minister may Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): While get on to this in a minute—is not whether BT is providing the Minister is going back to basics, I want to applaud the money as well as the taxpayer, but whether we are him and the efforts in Cornwall on superfast broadband. getting value for money out of the contracts. He rightly points to some good results. However, I would really like him to address the point, which he Mr Vaizey: I can give my hon. Friend an unequivocal mentioned, of the people who will not get fibre. What answer—yes. Our latest audit found that the scheme will we do to ensure that they have access to alternative cost is, I think, £92 million below what we expected. technologies? Where those technologies are satellite, With clawback provisions—if more people take up which—as the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire broadband than expected and, therefore, more revenue (Roger Williams) rightly pointed out—are much more comes in—we find that we can go further. In Cornwall, expensive than BT packages, what will we do to enable for example, a scheme started under the previous them to have equality of access and ensure that they are Government had a target of 80% coverage, but with the not priced out? same money we will now reach 95%. The hon. Member for Hartlepool quoted the National Mr Vaizey: I understand the point that my hon. Audit Office report from, I think, 18 months ago, which Friend makes. Time is pressing, but I will answer her was when I had to tour the studios with the right hon. question now. We were clear about 90% coverage. People Member for Barking (Margaret Hodge) to contest her can question whether that target was ambitious enough, conclusions. That report got wall-to-wall media coverage, but when the programme was going well enough, we but last month’s NAO report, which gave the scheme a found more money—the Treasury gave us an additional clean bill of health and said that we had made a lot of £250 million—to go to 95%. progress, got absolutely no coverage at all. In fact, I I stress that that was not us moving or revising the wrote down a quote from the right hon. Lady. She said target. We said, “Phase 1 is going well. We think we can that there go further. Here is £250 million and we think we can go 343WH Broadband4 MARCH 2015 Broadband 344WH to 95%, again by 2017.” To answer the question from my house to an outhouse in Upton Noble were not the hon. Member for Hartlepool, yes, some of those going to be sufficient, so I do not understand why that contracts extend beyond 2017. I used to be a lawyer. was not factored in originally. Why was the contract not Thankfully, I am no longer, but, if he has ever met a let on the basis of delivering fibre to those communities, lawyer, he will know that if they could write into a rather than on the basis of some notional figure, which contract a completion date in 2117, they would do so to has failed to be met? give themselves enough wiggle room. However, the end of the contract does not signify when the project is Mr Vaizey: I really fail to understand the point that likely to end. the hon. Gentleman is trying to make, and I will not Of course we want to get to 100%, and all the advice invite him to make it again or we could be here all night. we received said that getting to that last 5% could cost In his constituency, 26,000 homes will get coverage £2 billion. Those were, to put it bluntly, back of a fag under phase 1 of the programme, and nearly 2,500 more packet calculations—they were by sophisticated people homes will get it under phase 2, so we are talking about and on sophisticated fag packets, but that is what they 28,500 homes in his constituency that will get coverage. were—so the previous Secretary of State, the right hon. The programme is run by the local authority. To Member for Basingstoke (Maria Miller), who deserves make a blunt point, we are seeking bang for our taxpayer a lot of credit for the work she did across a range of buck. To pluck a figure from the air, if it will cost issues, found £10 million from the Treasury for some £50,000 to connect a village of 20 people and one of pilot schemes, which are now well under way. Some of 200 people, which group will be chosen? That is potentially them are delivering superfast broadband and we are a political decision as well. One might take a view that auditing them at the moment. connecting those 20 people is better, in the sense that My hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth they are at the end of the queue, so let us bring them (Sarah Newton) is quite right that satellite is quickly forward. However, that is something that we also left to emerging as one of the key solutions for the last 5%. We local authorities, because we wanted them to partner now want to do an analysis of what that is likely to cost, this programme. It was not for us in the centre of go to the Treasury with an evaluation, and think how Whitehall to decide between village A and village B. best that can be delivered. That will probably involve some of the smaller providers. That is the plan and Tessa Munt: Can the Minister comment on what hopefully by 2018-19 we can be close to 100% superfast appears to be utterly anti-competitive behaviour? I have broadband access. written down in my notes some fairly serious allegations, My hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton and this story has been covered in both the Western said that he wants the pace to be picked up. We have Morning News and the Western Daily Press. It is claimed passed the 2 million homes mark under the programme that BT said it would withdraw from the tender process and we are adding 40,000 homes a week—50,000 a for the contract for Connecting Devon and Somerset if week in some instances. However, this is an engineering CDS did not use the Broadband Delivery UK framework project and it cannot be delivered overnight. and run a closed tender process in which BT was the I want to talk about competition. We had an open only bidder. competition: we put in place a state aid approved framework contract and anyone could have bid for the contracts. Mr Vaizey: I will happily look at evidence the hon. At the beginning, a consortium led by Fujitsu did Lady has of any anti-competitive practices by BT. I will indeed bid against BT. However, there are constraints try to unpack what she is alleging. First, BT is free to when bidding for such contracts. To take Connecting bid or not to bid for these contracts. We should remember Devon and Somerset, for example, the aim is to try to that when we are busily kicking BT, which we do in all connect 360,000 homes, but there are not many players these debates; for a quiet life, BT might not bid for any in that space, much as I would wish there to be. If a of these contracts. company takes money from the taxpayer—I think it was the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome who Tessa Munt: As I understand it, in the national parks, asked who owned the assets—there will be open access, parts of Exmoor and Dartmoor have been parcelled so the TalkTalks of this world will provide their retail off, so that the contracts for those areas can be tendered services on such networks, built partly by the taxpayer competitively. Ironically the suppliers there have to and partly by BT. That is open access. That is why, for confirm that they are not participating in any “anti- example, a player such as Virgin Media, which some competitive activities” and they have to sign a “certificate might think has the scale to compete against BT, did of non-collusion”— not want to play in this space, because it does not want to run an open-access network. I again give credit to the Mr Vaizey: I get the point. I am running out of time, last Government for the structural separation of Openreach so let me simply say that BT is free to bid or not to bid, from BT. Openreach is an open platform to which and it is free to say to a contracting authority that it others are allowed access, at prices that are regulated by wants to use the framework contract to save time and Ofcom— make life more efficient, and that if the authority is Mr Heath: Can I bring the Minister back to his “fag going to use a different contract it will not bid. That is packet”, because one of his problems is that he has entirely up to BT and I do not think that is anti-competitive raised expectations? In Somerset, we may be a bit rough behaviour. and ready; we are certainly very rural. However, we do Obviously, we have a debate—a constant to-ing and not have big mountains, we are only under water part of fro-ing—with BT, because we audit its figures and the year and it was entirely predictable that the rotten invoices. Again, it is worth making the point that BT old copper cables that ran three and a half miles from invests this money up front; it does not receive any 345WH Broadband4 MARCH 2015 Broadband 346WH

[Mr Vaizey] tales of woeful customer service from BT—I do not know how many millions of customers a week, or a money from the Government or the taxpayer until it month, BT deals with regarding faults on the telephone has done the work. It is not handed a cheque to meander line, or whatever. I do not seek to be an apologist for kindly down the road and do the work when it feels like BT’s poor customer service when it comes across my it, and if there is some good football on the telly on desk. Wednesday night, it will not do the work. It does the I will, however, stand up for BT as a great British work and then it gets paid. company, which has worked tirelessly on this project As I say, we audit those figures and they show value and for which it seems to have received an endless for money. BT is a national provider, and therefore it supply of grief. BT has provided value for money; it has was in a very good position to win those contracts. delivered what we have asked it to deliver; and it is However, there is competition throughout the country. working at pace. I was delighted to meet some BT engineers during the Christmas period while they were Mr Bacon: Interestingly, the Minister said earlier that installing a cabinet in my constituency. Fujitsu bid against BT. No, it did not. It bid to be inside I am also pretty fed up with people doing down the contract, even though it had told the previous Britain in terms of our comparison with the rest of the Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member world. The hon. Member for Wells talks about South for Basingstoke (Maria Miller), that if it got inside the Korea. Well, South Korea is a very different country to contract it would not bid for any work. She got down the UK. It is densely populated, with a lot of tower on her hands and knees and begged it to be inside the blocks that can be connected pretty easily. Nevertheless, framework contract, because otherwise there would be its average speed is about 21 megabits, whereas our only one successful bidder inside the framework contract. average speed—[Interruption.] Please stop heckling. As That is what happened, even though the Department I was saying, South Korea’s average speed is 21 megabits knew that if Fujitsu entered the framework contract, it and ours is 18 megabits. would not be bidding for any work. Also, of course, when people talk about the speeds in other countries, they never talk about what that speed Mr Vaizey: That is not my understanding, but I will costs; they never talk about the equivalent of hundreds happily write to my hon. Friend and explain what I of pounds that people would have to spend every month think happened. However, I still fail to see the point to get these 1 gigabit speeds. And they also never talk that he is trying to make. The point I have just made is about take-up. The fact is that some of this superfast that these were quasi-national contracts—big contracts, broadband in South Korea, which people are so pleased to cover 360,000 homes—and very few players were to talk about, is used by very few South Koreans, willing to participate in that competition. Nevertheless, because South Koreans do not want it as it is too fast it was a competition— and too expensive. Mr Bacon: Will the Minister give way? That brings me neatly to London, where the very misleading survey that was used in the Evening Standard Mr Vaizey: No, I will not give way again, because I does not come close to showing how competitive London want to make the point— is. The survey cited a company that said, “Oh, we couldn’t get any broadband. It’s terrible. We’re in the centre of London.” In fact, that company actually has Mr Bacon: The Minister said he failed to understand superfast broadband running past its door, but it does my point— not want to pay the price for it. However, thanks to the publicity that has been generated, I gather that it has Mr Vaizey: We could keep going to and fro, but you been offered free superfast broadband by a local business have made it clear, Sir Alan, that you want this to be a provider. debate— When we launched our voucher schemes—more than Mr Bacon rose— 10,000 businesses now have these vouchers—we had around 500 suppliers on our books. There is no shortage of business broadband in London or in many other Sir Alan Meale (in the Chair): Order. The Minister is cities, but there is a shortage of businesses willing to pay not giving way to the hon. Gentleman. the price for it. That is why we have asked Ofcom to review the price of leased lines and the business market. Mr Vaizey: As I was saying, you want this to be a We want to see those prices coming down, and indeed debate, Sir Alan, and not a question and answer session. BT’s prices have come down. There are competitors. Virgin Media, for example, I have taken rather too many interventions and perhaps has just announced £3 billion worth of private investment not put my points as forcefully as possible. However, I to reach 4 million homes in cities. I think the hon. will say that I am proud of this programme; I am Member for Hartlepool mentioned York, where Talk delighted that 2 million premises have received superfast Talk, with Sky and CityFibre, is planning to build a broadband as a result of the programme; I am delighted network, but that will not be delivered overnight. Again, that 40,000 premises will get superfast broadband this those involved must get investment to do that. week, and that another 40,000 premises will get it next I will say this again and again and again—I make no week; I am delighted that the programme is being apology for working for what BT is doing. We can argue delivered by a great British company; and I am delighted about its customer service, and I am not BT’s representative. that that company is delivering massive value for money As a constituency MP,of course I deal with my constituents’ to the great British taxpayer. 347WH 4 MARCH 2015 Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital 348WH (Stanmore) Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital excellent, high-quality, world-class care. The CQC has (Stanmore) rated outcomes as “outstanding”, and the trust is regularly in the top 10% of all hospitals in respect of infection control and friends and family tests. 4pm All independent reviews concerning the hospital’s Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): It is a pleasure geographical location have concluded that there are no to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Alan, in this vital better alternatives to having the hospital on the Stanmore debate that is important not only locally in my constituency, site. All independent reviews concerning the financial but nationally. The Royal National Orthopaedic hospital risks associated with the redevelopment have concluded in Stanmore is a national and international institution that the Stanmore site development offers the best value par excellence. I will use a quote that I gleaned when for money and that no “more affordable” option is doing some research. The RNOH delivers available. “Outstanding clinical outcomes for patients” In the meantime, the future of the trust continues to in premises that are be reviewed, debated and deferred. As I have said, more “not fit for purpose—it does not provide an adequate environment than £70 million of costs have been incurred, with a to care and treat patients.” severe waste of money on project fees of £20 million, maintenance costs of keeping these rotten buildings going I and the staff of the hospital could not have put it of some £15 million and the lost efficiency opportunity better. That is a direct quote from the most recent of some £35 million. In this modern day and age, that inspection by the Care Quality Commission in August cannot be right. 2014. The hospital premises were built during the second By way of background, the hospital is a centre of world war to house airmen who were defending our international expertise in the diagnosis and treatment shores and to ensure that facilities were available to of neuromusculoskeletal conditions, which include treat our brave soldiers, airmen and seafarers returning acute spinal injury, bone tumour and complex joint home. Sadly, we still have the same premises that existed reconstruction. This centre of expertise is not replicated during the second world war. I want to put on the anywhere else within the national health service. It has record my tribute to the brilliant work that is done by the largest spinal surgery service in Europe, with a third all the medical staff, all the clerical staff and the entire of UK spinal scoliosis surgery and two thirds of specialist team who provide facilities and services at the hospital. nerve injury work being carried out on the site. Many charities that are associated with the work of the Some 95% of patients rate the care as “good” or hospital also operate from the site. “excellent”, and 90% of staff and patients would I wanted this debate today because I took the then recommend the hospital to their friends or relatives. shadow Secretary of State for Health to Stanmore in The hospital was the longest-standing in London with January 2010 to see the hospital at first hand. He gave a no MRSA infections in the past five years. Without commitment to the board, the staff and everyone associated question, this hospital delivers services and medical with the hospital that, were there to be a Conservative treatment that are the best in class. The clinical excellence Government after the election in May 2010, the hospital and innovation are beyond doubt. The problem is that would be rebuilt. the buildings were built to last for a limited period, but that has stretched to 70 years. It cannot be right that we Just before the election, in March 2010, the then insist on brilliant medical staff operating in substandard Secretary of State for Health, who is now the shadow conditions that would shame the third world. Secretary of State for Health, announced funding for the redevelopment. It is fair to say that immediately We need to ensure that the rebuilding takes place. I after the election, when hon. Friends discovered there understand completely that the health service has a was no money left at the Treasury, I had to work very process for business cases and has to offer value for hard with civil servants and elected politicians at the money. We would all support that in principle. However, Treasury to ensure that the promised funding for the as this is a specialist hospital of international renown, it rebuilding of the hospital was safeguarded in the emergency has a special place within the national health service. Budget that took place immediately after the election. Successive Governments and the health service have Here we are now, four and a half to five years on, and prevaricated on the future of the RNOH for decades— there has been very little progress on the rebuilding literally 30 years. We have to have a different, more work. The trust that runs the hospital—I have worked proactive approach to resolve the problem. It is clear with the board of the trust and others—has responded that the board that runs the trust will have to conclude to every question posed by the trust development authority. at some stage that it can no longer offer safety to It seems almost impossible to get through the positively patients in the substandard conditions in which it operates. Kafkaesque process of repeated reviews. The only The creditability of the Government, the national beneficiaries of that process are the management health service and everyone involved is on the line here. consultancy firms. Patients and the medical staff have Political leadership is required to ensure the best interests not benefited one iota. of patients and taxpayers. I look to my hon. Friend the I believe—I stand to be corrected if this is not so—that Minister for some suitable answers, because this has some £75 million has been spent on management been going on publicly and privately for the past five consultants. It has not been spent on the consultants years that I have been involved, and, before that, for the who treat patients, but the people who come and do past 30 years. management studies. I think that that is a disgrace and So the RNOH has a track record of delivering financial a waste of public money. All 13 independent reviews and performance targets. It responds time and again, have concluded that the orthopaedic hospital offers updating and revising financial plans and risk assessments 349WH Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital 4 MARCH 2015 Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital 350WH (Stanmore) (Stanmore) [Bob Blackman] RNOH can move forward to development. If we do not do that, we might as well close the hospital. That would and refreshing commissioner support. Every time the be an absolute tragedy for all the specialists, medical board responds, it appears that we do not move forward, staff and patients. By bringing those services together, but backward. That cannot be allowed to continue and the medical professionals have developed world-class we must reach an appropriate arrangement. We need an techniques and an ability to cure individuals of very innovative and alternative financing option—that is not serious problems. Indeed, the medical staff of the RNOH encouraged through the current NHS process—to ensure provide national and international services way beyond that the hospital is delivered. the bounds of the hospital. I urge the Minister to give We should be clear that the key to resolving this us some good news and to ensure that we get the matter is the top-up of public money by capital or a funding required for the hospital to be rebuilt and for loan of some £20 million. It should be understood that facilities to be provided for the brilliant staff, who do a the board will build a private hospital alongside the brilliant job for the patients. NHS hospital, and that will generate income. The board will also sell off land for housing development, which Sir Alan Meale (in the Chair): Before you begin, the area needs, but the board takes the sensible view Minister, I want to pass a message on. Generally when that it will realise the land receipts gradually as the need debates are answered in this place, the Parliamentary arises for the programme’s funding. That will maximise Private Secretary is present. There was not a PPS in the their value and provide a decent level of housing in the last debate or this debate, and that might happen in the local area. Both those things have been positively embraced. next debate, because I see the Minister for it standing The RNOH and the trust development agency have by. When a PPS for the Minister is not present, it is been developing the outline business case since September usual for someone from the Whip’s Office to be involved. 2014. In March 2015, we are still waiting to see whether Sometimes mysterious pieces of advice appear from it will be approved and action taken, so that the other places and have to be passed forward to the redevelopment can take place. Minister. When those people are not present to do that, we have to rely on House of Commons staff. They have It is time that the Department of Health acknowledged enough to do, and we should try to help them where that highly specialist hospitals and providers such as the possible. I am not saying that it is anything to do with RNOH need a different approach from that taken with the Minister, but I would be grateful if he could pass the generality of NHS providers. It cannot be right that that expectation on to the Whips or the PPSs. a super, specialist organisation with such excellent results is denied facilities for the want of a relatively small amount of public money. 4.16 pm In summary, the RNOH is a vital national provider The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health of treatment for the most complex orthopaedic conditions (Dr Daniel Poulter): I will of course pass that message and the rehabilitation for people with life-threatening on, Sir Alan. It is a pleasure to serve under your conditions, such as spinal cord injuries. It does vital chairmanship for, I think, the first time in the almost work on the innovation of new treatments, leading-edge three years I have been a Minister. I heed and take note research and development, the manufacture of state-of- of your comments. I congratulate my hon. Friend the the-art prosthetics and the training of future orthopaedic Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) on securing specialists. The hospital has treated many famous this debate on an issue that is important to him and his individuals, including Lord Tebbit’s wife after the Brighton constituents—and, more broadly, to many others. As he bombing and Princess Eugenie. Moreover, the RNOH rightly outlined, Stanmore is a centre of national excellence recognises the financial constraints it operates within in orthopaedic care. It has an international reputation. and has continuously demonstrated that mitigations to With the care it provides to its patients, it is one of the affordability risks are available. Demand for services best centres in the world. grows every day. Major land sale receipts will be available. Before I address the issues my hon. Friend raised, I Planning permission is in place; there is no hold-up on pay tribute to all those who work in our NHS—not just that. Housing and employment for the local population in his constituency, but right across the country—for will be increased by the proposal, and major private their dedication, determination and commitment in patient income will come in. providing first-class services to all whom they care for. I The RNOH has a track record of delivery against know that he made his remarks in that spirit. First-class, every target that it has ever been set. It has responded dedicated NHS staff need to be supported with the time and again to the requirements of the TDA and right facilities to provide that level of care. That is every other aspect of the health service. It is clear that exactly why he raised the issue today, and I hope my every time there has been a step forward, there have remarks will bring him some reassurance. been two steps back. Every time proposals have come One issue I wanted to pick up on was consultancy forward on alternative financing options, we have just spend. I agree with my hon. Friend that hospitals spending ended up spending more public money. If that £75 million money hand over fist in that way on consultants is had been invested in the project, we would now be completely unacceptable. I hope he will be pleased to looking at new hospital facilities on the site. We would know that the consultancy spend in the NHS has been have first-rate, world-class facilities for world-class medical reduced by £200 million since the previous Labour professionals. Government were in power, which is a strong step in the No one believes that anyone wants to see the facility right direction. Many of the issues that he raised on closed down, but the reality is that the Department of that are historical. We have introduced new section 42 Health has to move forward and instruct the TDA to guidance for trusts that are in deficit to ensure that they abandon the position that it has adopted, so that the are much more rigorous in how they spend their money 351WH Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital 4 MARCH 2015 Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital 352WH (Stanmore) (Stanmore) when they want to receive additional Government cash. I appreciate the concerns that have been expressed. Looking at consultancy spend and ensuring that money My hon. Friend called some of the challenges Kafkaesque, is not wasted in the way that he outlined are important and I share his frustration at the difficulties experienced parts of the new criteria. in developing and improving the facilities at the trust. It As we have heard, the RNOH is the largest orthopaedic has taken a long time to get the proposed redevelopment hospital in the UK and is regarded as a leader in the to this point. Nevertheless, it is important that the field of orthopaedics in the UK and worldwide. It business case is affordable. We know some of the historical provides a comprehensive range of neuromusculoskeletal dangers and challenges of unaffordable private finance health care, ranging from treatment for acute spinal initiative deals. In fact, a PFI deal crippled the South injuries to orthopaedic medicine and specialist rehabilitation London Healthcare NHS Trust; that serves as a reminder for those who suffer from chronic back pain. The range to us all of the challenges that hospitals will face in of specialist treatments provided by the trust includes: achieving sustainability and delivering high-quality patient the rehabilitation of people with life-threatening conditions, care if they take on unsustainable and unaffordable PFI including spinal cord injuries; the innovation of new deals. treatments, which is increasingly important, particularly I know that it has been frustrating, but we must in the areas of care provided by the hospital; leading-edge ensure that the financial arrangements for the loan, as research and development; the manufacture of state-of- well as those underpinning the new development package, the-art prosthetics; and the training of future orthopaedic are sustainable, in order to ensure that the future provision specialists. The trust is a national provider of health of services is not jeopardised by a rush into an imprudent care: 45% of the trust’s patients live in London, a financial arrangement. It is in that spirit that there has further 22% are from the remainder of the south-east, been a lot of due diligence, although I accept that it has 31% are from further afield in the UK and 2% are been frustrating. international, which shows the hospital’s outstanding In April 2013, the NHS Trust Development Authority reputation. took over responsibility for approving business cases The RNOH plays a major role in teaching. More for estate redevelopment. Between April and December than 20% of all UK orthopaedic surgeons receive training 2013, the TDA worked with the trust to address the there, which is testament to the desire of the surgeons of additional assurances required on the draft appointment tomorrow to ensure that they train and have experience business case. Both the trust and the TDA are clear that of providing care at an outstanding centre of excellence. the right solution must enable the provision of excellent Patients benefit from a team of highly specialised services to patients, be affordable, and offer value for consultants, many of whom are recognised for their money. expertise both in the UK and abroad. As my hon. Friend outlined, according to the friends and family In December 2013, the RNOH trust board determined test, Care Quality Commission inspections and many that it was unable to give its continued support for the patient indicators, Stanmore is a centre of excellence draft appointment business case, because the trust concluded and produces the very best possible care and results for that the risks to affordability and flexibility associated patients. with continuing with the scheme as then proposed were not sustainable. At that point, recognising the importance The RNOH’s proposed redevelopment of the Stanmore of the proposed redevelopment, the TDA committed to site is key to ensuring that it can continue to improve supporting the trust in working up alternative options the care it provides. I am aware that most of the for funding. The TDA has been supporting the RNOH buildings at Stanmore date from the 1940s, and many to develop a business case that offers value for money are no longer appropriate or fit for purpose for the and stands a good chance of securing the necessary high-quality care and excellent clinical outcomes that funding to enable important improvements to be made the RNOH provides for its patients. The plan is to for the benefit of patients. Serious consideration must rebuild the hospital so that it can continue to provide its also be given to the impact on the long-term sustainability specialist orthopaedic care to thousands of patients, of the trust. young and old, with conditions too complicated for other larger general hospitals to handle. The new hospital In January 2014, when the financial modelling was will be a state-of-the-art facility that reflects and enhances complete, the trust concluded that a PFI scheme was the medical excellence that already exists at the RNOH. unaffordable and that it wished to pursue an alternative It will provide 124 beds, the majority of which will be in scheme. In May 2014, the trust presented to the TDA an single rooms, thereby greatly enhancing patient privacy outline of its new preferred option for the redevelopment and dignity and helping to reduce the transference of of the Stanmore site. It is a smaller-scale capital infection, the incidence of which, as my hon. Friend redevelopment, costed at around £40 million, as my outlined, is remarkably low at the trust. hon. Friend said. The cost is to be met jointly through Patient experience will be enhanced through a number public funds and the proceeds from land sales. of en-suite single rooms and modern, spacious and Hospitals and trusts sometimes have surplus land well-equipped communal areas. Improved facilities for that is not used for patient care, and that it costs them staff will give them a better environment in which to money to maintain—money that does not go to front-line work, enabling them to provide the best possible care. patient care. It is of course right that, if they would like The RNOH is renowned worldwide for its clinical excellence, to redevelop facilities for the benefit of patients, they and manages to maintain high standards of outcomes should use some of the capital receipts from the sale of despite the condition of the estate. The trust looks that land to contribute to any planned redevelopment. forward to continuing that high standard of care in the It is in that spirit that the new package was put together. new hospital, which will provide an enhanced setting Indeed, it is in that spirit that the section 42 guidance both for patients, and for support staff delivering the for trusts in deficit that require finance, which I outlined highest possible quality of care. earlier, was drawn up. Where trusts have surplus land 353WH Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital 4 MARCH 2015 354WH (Stanmore) [Dr Daniel Poulter] Urban Food Growing (Planning) that they could release because it is not required for 4.28 pm patient care, that land can be freed up in order to provide affordable homes for local people, support the Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): As always, it is construction industry and, of course, reduce the overall a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Alan. I cost of running a trust’s estate. That is a win-win secured this debate partly to highlight a constituency situation for the NHS, as well as for the local economy issue and to ask the Minister how the planning system and, often, young families in the area. I am sure that can better protect food growing in urban areas. There that will be a benefit of the proposed new scheme, as my are obviously many pressures on land in our towns and hon. Friend said. cities. We need employment space, public spaces, and, The TDA supports the approach that has been put above all, we really need to start a systematic programme together as part of the £40 million package, and will of house building again. But our green spaces are also advise and support the trust on the development and important. submission of its application for public funding and its The Wildlife Trusts and the Royal Society for the business case for the sale of land. Protection of Birds found in their “Act for Nature” Looking to the future, I understand that the campaign that the most deprived communities are 10 times TDA received the trust’s revised outline business case less likely to live in the greenest areas and that access to on 29 January. The TDA is now assessing the business green space helps to reduce health inequalities. The case with the aim of making a decision at the earliest creation of green corridors in urban areas helps to opportunity; its board meeting will be held on 19 March—in avoid habitat fragmentation, reduces the urban heat less than three weeks’ time. This morning, I spoke island effect, better harvests rainwater and improves air positively to the TDA about the business case. I have quality. every hope that the outline business case will be strongly As the hon. Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell) supported. We must obviously wait for the outcome of noted in the main Chamber a few weeks ago, the meeting, but I hope that my hon. Friend and his “increasing the amount of ‘green infrastructure’ by 10% could constituents will hear good news later this month. entirely offset the impact of rising temperatures in such high-density The TDA recognises the unarguably poor quality of urban centres.”—[Official Report, 14 January 2015; Vol. 590, c. 981.] the Stanmore estate, and the great challenges that that presents to the delivery of high-quality health care and Urban food growing is very much part of that picture. a positive patient experience in the months and years People have become much more concerned about the ahead. It is mindful of the need to make a swift decision, provenance of their food. They are keen to see more so it is committed to working alongside the trust to sustainable food and farming practices and they want agree a business case for clinical quality reasons. It is to protect urban biodiversity and wildlife. Urban agriculture vital that that is done in a way that safeguards important should be seen very much as part of a strategy to tackle services for patients. Now that the TDA has received a food poverty and the public health challenges associated formal business case to review, the process will continue with poor diet. at pace. Once the business case is approved, the TDA As recent reports by the Select Committee on will support the trust in developing a full business case Environment, Food and Rural Affairs have highlighted, and finalising any outstanding assurances that might be the issue is also one of food security, food sovereignty required, in the shortest time possible. and the UK’s declining self-sufficiency in food. Achieving I hope that my hon. Friend is reassured that a very food security is about building environmental and economic active process is now in play, with the Trust Development resilience in the face of climate change, using resources Authority proactively supporting the trust to progress more sustainably in the production and supply of food, its business case, which I am optimistic will be approved reducing food waste, lowering high emissions from the in its outline form later this month. I hope that my hon. food supply chain and promoting healthy and sustainable Friend’s constituents will then receive some very good diets. I am pleased and proud that Bristol is in the news that will be welcomed not only at Stanmore and vanguard of that movement. by his constituents, but by orthopaedic patients in this Back in 2009 Bristol council commissioned a report country and elsewhere in the world who receive the best by Joy Carey, “Who feeds Bristol? Towards a resilient possible care from the trust. food plan”. We became one of the first cities in the UK to establish our own food policy council, which drives forward policies to increase the amount of land available for growing food and to safeguard the diversity of retailers. We launched the good food plan for Bristol, which has the ambition of ensuring that everyone has access to good, affordable, healthy food. The Bristol Food Network helps to connect up all those people and businesses with a shared vision of transforming Bristol into a truly sustainable food city. A study by the university of Gloucestershire-based countryside and community research institute found that for every £1 of investment in community food projects, there was a sevenfold social return on that investment to the community. There are far too many such projects in Bristol to name them all, but I want to 355WH Urban Food Growing (Planning)4 MARCH 2015 Urban Food Growing (Planning) 356WH mention a few. The Severn Project provides horticultural Local Government and met and written to Transport training to people recovering from drug and alcohol Minister Baroness Kramer. We have not yet given up dependency. It is a successful social enterprise, acting as hope. a hub for satellite growers and providing access to land, On the broader issues raised, national planning policy equipment, sales and distribution. It estimates that every includes the aim to protect best and most versatile kilogram of its produce is worth £15 to the local economy. agricultural land in recognition of its role as a precious Elm Tree farm is based on a 35-acre site in my national asset, essential to our future food security. constituency and offers vocational training to about Once land is lost to development, it is extremely unlikely 60 people who have autism or learning disabilities, that it will ever be returned to agricultural use. In 2011, illustrating the therapeutic value of food growing projects, however, the Department for Environment, Food and as well as offering them a route into work. Incredible Rural Affairs reported a huge loss of BMV land to Edible Bristol advocates guerrilla gardening, taking development over recent years, although we do not over grass verges and other underused land to plant really know the extent, as such data are not collected seeds and grow food. The Matthew Tree Project’s systematically. FOODTURES initiative helps long-term unemployed Furthermore, there has been a weakening of the people back into skilled work through training in protection given to BMV land, most recently as a result horticulture, food processing and supply. It brings the of changes to the national planning policy framework best nutritious food to the poorest areas of the city. in March 2012. Will the Minister discuss with her Last but not least, Feed Bristol is an exemplary study DEFRA colleagues the feasibility of monitoring the of the social, environmental and economic benefits of loss to development of our most productive soils—a community food growing. Over the past three years, it process that is vital to understanding the scale of the has directly helped 36 people back into employment, problem? What plans does her Department have to and in acting as an incubator site for businesses related strengthen the protection of our best soil in national to food and to wildlife, six new businesses have been planning policy as critical to our food security? That launched. Feed Bristol engages many thousands of was promised in the Conservative party’s “Open Source disadvantaged people and school children in activities Planning” policy green paper in 2010. Then, in the on the site, from helping to educate children in the value natural environment White Paper, the Government said of food and where it comes from, to developing horticultural that they wanted skills. Sadly, however, we are now engaged in a last-ditch “to protect our best and most versatile agricultural land.” attempt to alter a new MetroBus route that will involve Another problem is that while the planning practice the building of a bus-only junction on prime agricultural guidance supports space for growing food, the national land, which includes the Feed Bristol site. planning policy framework does not include local food Since the MetroBus scheme was first designed more growing, which tends to mean that local plans do not than five years ago, the area planned for the junction include it either. Promoting local food may be put into a has become a new hub of Bristol’s urban food growing local plan—in Bristol, it is included in both the local movement. If the scheme goes ahead, which we fear it plan and the core strategy—but it does not have to be. will, the junction will pass through not only the Avon At the national level, no link is presumed between Wildlife Trust’s award-winning community food growing sustainable development and supporting local food. project, Feed Bristol, which I have just mentioned, but Food production is missing, yet it is a major land use. It the long-standing Stapleton allotments, the Sims Hill thus falls to experts at the local level to show that local Shared Harvest organic community-supported agriculture food meets the core planning principles of the NPPF. market garden and the Edible Futures educational market- Will the Minister acknowledge that including local gardening co-operative. food in the NPPF and demonstrating how it meets sustainable development objectives would make a big The land under threat is part of what is known as the difference? Will she say something on the value of food “blue finger”, which is highly fertile, food growing soil, growing to the achievement of sustainable development predominantly grade 1—coded blue on maps, which is inherent in the planning system? The economic strategy how the area gets its name—and some peripheral areas of the West of England local enterprise partnership of grade 2 and 3, collectively known as “best and most also does not mention food production. Will the Minister versatile” land. Less than 3% of soil in the UK is grade comment on the relationship between that strategy and 1, so the blue finger land is a valuable asset not only for the core strategies and local plans of the west of England Bristol, but for the whole UK. The land is also designated local authorities? green belt and includes the Frome valley conservation area, as well as a wildlife corridor and woodland, but In a recent speech, the Secretary of State for none of that has protected it from development. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs talked about the creation of The transport scheme received planning consent back “Food Enterprise Zones to kick-start local food economies and in August and is now with the Department for Transport join up farming, manufacturing, distribution and retail firms”, for final funding approval. Meanwhile, the council, in its eagerness to start felling trees, has applied to the which sounds to be very much along the lines of what High Court to clear the site of protesters, who have we want to achieve in Bristol. I appreciate that the been camped for the past month on the land, high up in Minister is in a different Department, but it would be the treetops in tree houses. The protesters have a tremendous good to hear more about how such plans can be protected amount of support from local residents and from further by the planning system and the Minister’s Department. afield. I do not know whether the Minister can do The MetroBus bus-only junction project has caused anything to help us in our fight to protect the site. I have serious concerns about how allotments are sold off for written to the Secretary of State for Communities and development—a process that requires the consent of 357WH Urban Food Growing (Planning)4 MARCH 2015 Urban Food Growing (Planning) 358WH

[Kerry McCarthy] I do not know whether the Minister can do anything to help us save the blue finger. I hope that I have the Secretary of State for Communities and Local managed to persuade her that this is a serious issue and Government. Last year, Labour’s shadow Communities that, even if we cannot protect the blue finger in this Secretary found that the Secretary of State had rejected instance, it would be good if her Department—or a only two out of 83 applications by English councils to future, Labour Department for Communities and Local sell off allotment sites for development between 2010 Government—would look at how we can change the and 2013. So is it simply a rubber-stamping exercise by planning system to make sure a situation like this one the Secretary of State, or can we rely on the process to does not happen again. protect our allotments? The council’s application to move the Stapleton 4.41 pm allotments for the MetroBus junction did not mention that the site to which the allotments would be relocated TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforCommunities had considerably inferior soil and was already home to and Local Government (Penny Mordaunt): It is a pleasure a beautiful wildflower meadow and wildlife corridor. to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Alan. I congratulate Subsequently, the soil on the new site was discovered to the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) on contain levels of lead too high for community gardens, securing this debate on a topic on which I have a great but the Minister’s Department was not made aware of deal of sympathy with her. I am from Portsmouth, the that. The council proposes to take topsoil from the most densely populated city in Europe—we are also an BMV land and use it to replace the topsoil in the new island—and so very much understand the importance location, but like biodiversity offsetting, the science of of green space and of allotments in particular. how well the soil will work in the new location is The Government recognise how important allotments unclear. A number of experts have expressed doubts. and other open spaces are for local people. They provide Turning to the green belt, under the planning system people with the opportunity to enjoy regular physical large transport systems should only be developed on exercise, meet new people in their neighbourhood and green belt in exceptional circumstances and the potential benefit from a healthier diet, regardless of income. It is harm caused should be clearly outweighed by other only right that the law reflects that importance. considerations. In the planning application, however, Local authorities must provide allotments where they see those exceptional circumstances seemed to rest on fairly there is a demand for them, and cannot sell or change unsubstantiated claims that it would “unlock employment”, the use of such land without first getting consent from while the “potential harm” to the area was not assessed. the Secretary of State. Both the mandatory statutory To be fair to the Minister, I do not intend to go into criteria, set out in section 8 of the Allotments Act 1925, details of the MetroBus scheme, which I appreciate is a and the additional policy criteria ensure that allotment matter for her colleagues in the Department for Transport, holders will not lose their plots or have nowhere left to but I flag up the frustrations felt by people that the garden. Those criteria make sure that unless there are planning system was not adequately considering matters exceptional circumstances, a site that is fully or mostly that it should have been considering when the scheme occupied will not receive consent for disposal. The went through. criteria also ensure that, before consent is given, the I will finish by expressing my concerns about how local authority must show that it has promoted allotment local people were consulted about the scheme, how the gardening and made residents aware of the site it plans situation was handled by the planning committee on to dispose of. Where an allotment site is mentioned in the night of the decision and just how difficult it has the local plan—perhaps as a designated local green been throughout the process, which has been going on space—the local authority will not get consent unless it for several years, to challenge it. The Minister’s boss is a can show it is not acting contrary to the plan. great advocate of localism, but it is clear that not Last year the Department published “Allotment disposal enough local power was in local people’s hands. guidance: safeguards and alternatives”, a new set of When the planning committee met to consider the guidance clarifying the legal and policy safeguards in application in August last year, it was told by officers place to ensure that disposal is properly and thoroughly that it was an all or nothing situation and that funding handled, which is available on the gov.uk website. The for the whole £200 million bus rapid transit 3 scheme process for handling disposal applications is now wholly would be withdrawn if the application was not approved transparent and sets out each factor that will be taken there and then. That does not square with what I was into account when deciding whether each of the criteria later told by the Transport Minister, Baroness Kramer, has been met. but with that threat hanging over the committee’s head, We recognise that demand for allotment plots still the application went through. outstrips supply, but the situation is slowly improving. All along, we have found it incredibly difficult to get A survey of allotment waiting lists carried out by the information from the council about whether alternatives National Allotment Society in 2013 indicated an average to the bus-only junction had been considered, what the of 52 people waiting for every 100 plots, compared with benefit-cost ratio of those alternatives was, what discussions, 57 per 100 plots when a similar survey was carried out if any, there had been with other stakeholders, what two years earlier. In addition, the survey indicated that rules ought to be followed and whether the correct in the two years before it was conducted, 65 new allotment applications had been made and permissions granted. sites had been brought into use by 51 councils, covering The balance of power is weighted against local people, 30 hectares, creating nearly 2,000 new plots. and the Government’s recent clampdown on the right Before I turn to areas of regulation and policy that to judicial review, which was already out of reach for can assist communities, I will address specific points most community groups, has made it even worse. raised by the hon. Lady, who has asked for some 359WH Urban Food Growing (Planning)4 MARCH 2015 Urban Food Growing (Planning) 360WH practical help. As she recognises, my limited brief does the green belt or other types of designated area. There, not extend to either the Department for Transport or the local planning authority should refuse planning the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, permission for inappropriate new building that would but I am here to be helpful. I am happy to consider harm the openness of the land. Moreover, in conservation whether there could be more encouragement for local areas, any gardens, parks and other green spaces between food growing when the NPPF is next revised, but she the protected buildings may be identified by policies in obviously also needs help now. the local plan as part of the characterisation of the area Metrobus required planning permission from the three and preserved for that reason. local authorities that cover stretches of the proposed The phrase “green infrastructure” may be jargon, but bus route, as well as an order under the Transport and it helps to make the point that the provision and retention Works Act 1982 from the Department for Transport of high-quality green open space and tree planting are and separate consent to dispose of the sites, which not only vital to the well-being of communities, but technically are allotment land—the application for that should be part of the strategy to mitigate the effects of consent is still under consideration by the Secretary of climate change. In all our towns and cities, the provision State. It is true that now the planning permissions have and enhancement of green space is important. The been granted only a court could set them aside. We are Government have introduced a range of new powers to also beyond the stage at which the Secretary of State allow individuals and communities to protect the spaces can exercise his powers to call in a planning proposal. of most value to them. Those powers include the power As a Minister in the Department for Communities for communities to create local green spaces—a designation and Local Government, it would not be proper for me made as part of a local plan or a neighbourhood plan to comment on precise aspects of planning permissions, that enables communities to identify green areas of the handling of an application or any planning conditions particular importance and impose protection as strong imposed. Those are a matter for the local planning as that applied to green-belt land. That will be of interest authority. As I have said, one aspect is still under to the hon. Lady. consideration by my Secretary of State. The merits of Neighbourhood planning is capturing the imagination the scheme have been outlined to the hon. Lady in a of communities across the country. About 1,400 letter from the local mayor. I should clarify that the communities have started the neighbourhood planning council is free to submit a revised planning application process, and more are joining them each week. that would be determined in the usual way; I put that on Neighbourhood plans have a legal weight prior to being the record now for her benefit. adopted through a referendum. The fact that a plan is An important part of localism is ensuring that councils being written and is in place, subject to a referendum, and communities can protect the green spaces that are gives it legal weight; it does not have that status only precious to them. Local people know their areas better after a referendum. than Whitehall does, and are best placed to make decisions I am pleased to see that a number of policies on about their planning needs. Local plans, supported by allotments are coming forward from neighbourhood neighbourhood plans, are the best way to steer development plans. In some instances, they are about maintaining to the appropriate locations and decide where planning existing provision, and in other cases they seek to promote restraint is essential. the creation of new allotments. If the hon. Lady is The planning system is led by the policies in the local interested, I suggest that she look at the neighbourhood plan. Those policies are adopted only after public plans for St James in Exeter, Thame and Cringleford, consultation, followed by independent examination by which have done some trailblazing things on allotments. a planning inspector who will check and report on the There is also the community right to bid. More than soundness of each draft plan. Planning law requires 300 green spaces have been listed as community assets, that specific planning permissions be obtained before which ensures that groups can pause the sale of land for any material change of land use occurs. Planning permission up to six months to give them the opportunity to raise is also necessary for any building or engineering works the money to buy the land. There is also the community affecting the land. right to reclaim land, which enables community groups Planning policy also puts local communities at the to acquire vacant or underused land and bring it back heart of planning. In our NPPF we ask planners to into beneficial use. assess the needs of the food production industry and The hon. Lady has clearly been active in campaigning resolve associated planning barriers. Planners should be on this issue for her constituents. She has spoken to no less keen to support people in our towns and cities other Departments, and I encourage her to carry on who wish to grow their own food, whether on an speaking to the Department for Transport, although allotment or in a domestic garden. The framework also most of the levers are clearly in her local authority’s asks local planning authorities to insist on high standards hands. Although she will not want to consider failure in of design, including when it comes to the layout of our her campaign, if she is faced with the option of a plan towns and cities and the provision of green space within B, my Department may be able to do some things to them. assist her, given its remit. The hon. Lady said that Allotments, along with community gardens, urban Bristol is a trailblazer on this issue, and it is also a farms and other such land uses, are open spaces of trailblazer in recognising the importance of social enterprise. public benefit. That should always be recognised by The local enterprise partnership recognises the importance local authorities when preparing assessments of need of social enterprises, and it is focused on providing and audits of existing open space and recreational opportunities for economic regeneration, getting those facilities in their areas, or when considering the impact who are in long-term unemployment back to work and of new development. Some allotments are on the outskirts so forth. Although I am not completely au fait with of towns, and may fall within the protections given to them, there are clearly a number of enterprises and 361WH Urban Food Growing (Planning)4 MARCH 2015 Urban Food Growing (Planning) 362WH

[Penny Mordaunt] The clock is clearly ticking for the hon. Lady on this issue, and I hope that I have been able to count her ventures that are of value to the community that are through some of the levers that are available to her. She contingent on the piece of land in question. If the hon. said that it has been difficult for her to get to the bottom Lady were faced with that situation, we would not want of certain facts. Clearly, the process that should be those enterprises to be placed if jeopardy. If they need being followed is transparent. It is on the website if she help relocating, finance to assist them or any other has any technical questions. If she has had difficulty in support mechanism, officials in my Department will be getting certain facts and pieces of information, I would able to help with signposting, and I will be able to talk be happy to follow that up with her. the hon. Lady through the support and options that are available. If she were in that situation, I would encourage Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): When I was a her to get in touch with me. Obviously, her aim is to councillor in the London borough of Barnet, I was prevent that from happening. I hope that my outlining responsible for allotments, and the big fear for many of of some of the policies available has left her better the allotment holders was that the council wanted to informed. sell off the allotments for development. The Minister said that under section 23 of the Small Holdings and Kerry McCarthy: I sense that the Minister is about to Allotments Act 1908 local authorities have an obligation draw her remarks to a close, but she has not yet addressed to provide allotments. If the Minister cannot answer me the issue of soil quality and the protection of the best now, will she write to me later to confirm that that may and most versatile land in the planning system, which is not be the case in London, because of the London one of the key things that we have been pushing for. Government Act 1963, so the same obligations may not apply to the London borough of Barnet? Penny Mordaunt: That is on my list; I was trying to find it. As the hon. Lady said, that is not within my Department’s remit; it is very much a DEFRA issue. Penny Mordaunt: I would be happy to write to my However, I will undertake to write to her about the hon. Friend on that issue. I will also write to the hon. prospects, and about what is done currently and what Member for Bristol East about her ambitions for greater may be done in the future to monitor what is happening monitoring when the policy framework is revised, and to high-grade land. about soil and further things that can be done to encourage local food production. I would be happy to Kerry McCarthy: I appreciate that the issue of farming, look at that. soil quality and so on falls primarily within DEFRA’s In conclusion, I encourage the hon. Lady to maintain remit. However, I asked the Minister’s Department a dialogue with my Department and others to see whether year ago whether this could be a special category that is we can do anything further if she is not successful in her protected within the planning system, and the answer campaign, and if those social enterprises need support was that it could perhaps be dealt with in the local in relocating or developing their business plans. I will plans. However, as I have outlined, it is not on local follow up with a letter, and I encourage her to keep authorities’ radars yet. Could the Minister undertake at talking to my Department and others. least to talk to her officials about whether that is Question put and agreed to. possible? [Interruption.] I think a note is winging its way towards her.

Penny Mordaunt: Yes, certainly. I have said that I am 4.57 pm happy to look at those things when the NPPF is revised. Sitting adjourned. 59WS Written Statements4 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 60WS

in Eurostar—have the option (the “Pre-emption Right”) Written Statements to acquire HMG’s 40% stake for a 15% premium to the agreed price of £585.1 million. Closing of the sale to the Wednesday 4 March 2015 CDPQ and Hermes Infrastructure consortium is conditional on SNCF and SNCB not exercising the Pre-emption Right. The transaction is also conditional on certain regulatory approvals including EU merger CABINET OFFICE clearance. [HCWS340] UK Statistics Authority (2011 Census)

The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT General (Mr Francis Maude): The UK Statistics Authority has published the general report of the 2011 census. The general report is the official, and comprehensive, Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre account of the 2011 census in England and Wales. It reviews the entire census operation and provides a wealth of detail about how the census was carried out and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for what lessons have been learned. Communities and Local Government (Kris Hopkins): My It is aimed at both the experienced and occasional noble Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State user of census data, but it is hoped the wider public may for Communities and Local Government, Lord Ahmad also find the report useful and informative. of Wimbledon, has made the following written ministerial statement: This general report is being laid before both Houses of Parliament pursuant to the Census Act 1920. I am today announcing key performance targets that have been agreed for the Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre for the [HCWS341] period 1 April 2015 to 31 March 2016. The agency’s principal financial target for 2015-16 is to achieve a minimum dividend payment to the Department for Communities TREASURY and Local Government of £1.7 million as proposed in the business plan for the year. Infrastructure (Sale of Eurostar) The agency also has the following targets to achieve: Room hire—to achieve a capacity utilisation ratio of 53%. To generate secondary revenue from audio visual and information The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): technology services and catering royalty which in total equates to I am pleased to inform the House that the Government a ratio of 90% of room hire revenue. have agreed the sale of their entire interest in Eurostar To achieve an overall score for client satisfaction of at least International Ltd (“Eurostar”) for £757.1 million. 90%. The autumn statement 2013 and “National Infrastructure To receive less than two complaints per 100 events held. Plan 2013” set out the Government’s ambition to achieve The centre is forecasting an increase in its annual dividend £20 billion from corporate and financial asset sales by payment to the Exchequer from £1.5 million in 2014-15 to £1.7 million 2020. Eurostar was identified as a possible candidate in 2015-16 which is projected to rise further over its corporate for sale and following a competitive auction process plan period. which started in October 2014, the Government have I am also delighted to announce that the centre has delivered now reached final agreements. significant improvements and enjoyed considerable success over A consortium comprising Caisse de dépôt et placement the course of the last two years. du Québec (CDPQ) and Hermes Infrastructure has For the year ending 2014-15 the centre delivered a growth in agreed to acquire Government’s 40% stake in Eurostar room hire revenue of 17.3% in comparison to the previous year, a for £585.1 million. In addition, Eurostar has, on closing substantial achievement. of the sale of the Government stake, agreed to redeem For 2014-15 the centre also delivered the best trading results HMG’s preference share, providing a further £172 million across all income streams since 2009-10 and in one month, June for the Exchequer. 2014, delivered the highest occupancy level and revenue generating month since it opened 29 years ago. Eurostar is the high-speed train service linking London, In economic terms it is estimated that the centre delivered an Ebbsfleet and Ashford with Paris, Brussels, Lille and economic impact to the London and UK economy of £122 million other French destinations. Established in 1994 as a in 2014-15. partnership between three railway companies: SNCF, The centre remains fully self-funding and has invested wisely in SNCB and British Rail—subsequently London and improving its facilities and services and as a result was awarded Continental Railways (LCR)—Eurostar became a single, the 2014 gold award for best large venue by Eventia, the UK’s unified corporate entity owned by three shareholders: largest event industry association. SNCF, SNCB and LCR in September 2010. In June The centre is an increasingly successful profit-making agency, 2014 the ownership of the UK holding transferred from paying an annual dividend which is forecast to increase again in LCR, a Department for Transport owned company, to 2015-16 and in each of the years covered by its corporate plan. HM Treasury. I would like to offer my congratulations to the centre’s management The sale receipts will be paid on completion of the team for their proactive and determined efforts in modernising contract, which is expected to happen in the second and improving this agency and its performance. quarter of 2015. SNCF and SNCB—the other shareholders [HCWS342] 61WS Written Statements4 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 62WS

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER with a UK parliamentary election, which arise in relation to their discharge of responsibilities as RO or ARO but Returning Officers (Indemnity) fall outside of the scope of the insurance cover which they have arranged locally, and where all other forms of recourse have been exhausted. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education The indemnity will be limited to the extent that: (Mr Sam Gyimah): It is normal practice, when a it will not cover any costs which arise in whole or part from any Government Department proposes to undertake a deliberate or wilful negligence by an ARO/RO; contingent liability in excess of £300,000 for which there is no specific statutory authority, for the Minister it will not generally cover any excess costs which the ARO/RO has negotiated on his/her insurance policy—although individual concerned to present a departmental minute to Parliament claims for excess costs will be judged on their merits; giving particulars of the liability created and explaining it will not cover situations where the ARO/RO’s insurance the circumstances; and to refrain from incurring the policy offers an alternative means of cover; liability until 14 parliamentary sitting days after the issue of the minute, except in cases of special urgency. it will not cover any reduction, under section 29A of the Representation of the People Act 1983, in the amount to which Returning officers for UK parliamentary elections in the RO or ARO is entitled for his/her services; England and Wales are appointed under section 24 of it will not cover any penalty imposed in relation to a criminal the Representation of the People Act 1983 (“RPA 1983”). offence; The post is an honorary one, held by the sheriff of a it will not cover any claim relating to the carrying out of county or the mayor or chairman of a local council. electoral registration duties; and However, in practice, under section 28 of the RPA 1983, it will not cover any claim relating to the use of a motor vehicle the returning officer discharges functions through an where such use should have been covered by a valid insurance acting returning officer, who is usually a senior officer policy but was not. in the local authority. The indemnity will cover costs arising in relation to In Scotland, under sections 25 and 41 of the RPA UK parliamentary elections, including by-elections, where 1983, returning officers for UK parliamentary elections the date of the poll is on or before 31 March 2020. Any are appointed local authority officers. claim must be made within 13 months of the poll at the For the purposes of UK parliamentary elections, election to which it relates. returning officers and acting returning officers throughout Great Britain—referred to below as “ROs”and “AROs”— The Government gave similar indemnities in relation are independent officers. They are separate from both to previous UK parliamentary general elections. central and local government. As a result, they are The likelihood of the indemnity being called is very exposed to a variety of legal risks varying from minor low. The volume of claims which have been made at claims for injury at polling booths, to significant election previous national elections has been very low. So far petitions and associated legal costs. there have been no claims against the indemnity given in ROs and AROs make their own arrangements to respect of the recent European parliamentary elections insure themselves against any risks they face in taking on 22 May 2014. The largest claim met under previous forward their statutory duties at local and UK parliamentary Government insurance or indemnity arrangements for elections. The cover obtained usually forms part of the a national election was £24,035.75 at the 2009 European local authority’s own insurance arrangements. parliamentary election. Minor injury and damage In a small sample of AROs from the Cabinet Office’s claims met under Government insurance or indemnity electoral policy coordination group, all provided details arrangements at national elections have amounted to of existing insurance cover in place with the local less than £10,000 over the last decade. authority that extended to cover the AROs conduct in However, the possibility of a successful claim in the relation to UK parliamentary elections. future cannot be ruled out. The potential risk associated The upper limit of [Professional/Officials Indemnity] with election petitions could be significant. For example, cover in the sample ranged from £5 million to £15 million, the costs for the Winchester election petition in 1997, with excesses ranging from nil to £500,000. following the general election of that year, amounted to This insurance mainly sought to cover: £250,000. If a petition involving an ARO or RO went to liability for damages arising out of wrongful acts in the performance a full trial and ran for several days it is conceivable that of official duties; the bill for legal costs could run into millions of pounds. reasonable legal expenses for defending any proceedings; and It is also conceivable that there could be more than one costs arising out of holding another election. occurrence associated with a single election. The costs of an election petition might not be completely covered While this insurance, coupled with local authority’s through existing insurance arrangements and may require employers and public liability insurance, will cover the the indemnity to be called upon. great majority of risks to which ROs and AROs will be exposed to at UK parliamentary elections, they could The indemnity is therefore unlimited. If the liability ultimately be liable for claims of a type not covered by is called, provision for any payment is likely to be met insurance policies. They could also be liable for claims from the Consolidated Fund. that exceed the insurance limits in existing cover. The Treasury has approved the proposal in principle. In light of this, the Cabinet Office proposes to provide If, during the period of 14 parliamentary sitting days ROs and AROs with a specific indemnity for UK beginning on the date on which this minute was laid parliamentary elections to supplement the insurance before Parliament—or, if there are fewer than 14 such policies that have been arranged locally. The indemnity sitting days in this Parliament, the period ending with will fund ROs and AROs for costs—including reasonable the last sitting day in this Parliament—a Member signifies legal costs and reasonable expenses—incurred in connection an objection by giving notice of a parliamentary question 63WS Written Statements4 MARCH 2015 Written Statements 64WS or by otherwise raising the matter in Parliament, final Energy Council approval to proceed with incurring the liability will be withheld pending an examination of the objection. [HCWS338] The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change(MatthewHancock):MynobleFriendtheParliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Baroness Verma, has made the following written ministerial statement. Today, in advance of the forthcoming Energy Council in Concessionary Coal Brussels on 5 March, I am writing to outline the agenda items to be discussed. Under the first item on the agenda the Latvian presidency has The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate suggested an exchange of views on the strategic framework for Change (Matthew Hancock): I want to update the House the energy union, with a view to contributing to the discussion on matters concerning the provision of concessionary and conclusions on the energy union expected at the European fuel entitlements to the miners of UK Coal Production Council on 19-20 March. The UK broadly welcomes the Commission’s Ltd (UKC). communication setting out a strategy for a “resilient Energy Union with a forward looking Climate Change Policy” and On 15 January 2015, UKC submitted to Government considers it a promising start to delivering the EU reform needed a request for additional public sector funding to extend to strengthen Europe’s energy security, decarbonise cost-effectively the life of its two deep coal mines. Under the company’s and deepen the internal energy market. The UK will be arguing current plans, Thoresby is due to close in August 2015 that the scale of the challenges ahead requires further ambition and Kellingley in December 2015. The support requested and flexibility and that member states need to be able to draw on constitutes state aid to the coal sector, which is governed the full range of low, and lower, carbon technologies to deliver by Council decision 2010/787/EU, and is restricted to secure, low carbon and competitive energy, including renewable, facilitating the safe and orderly closure of loss-making energy efficiency, nuclear, CCS and gas. coal mines by 2018 at the latest. The Council will then hold a policy debate on energy infrastructure, focusing on measures to promote the efficient implementation of The company’s request is for total additional support an interconnected cross-border energy market, including ending of £338 million. Of this, £244 million is to cover the the energy isolation of member states. The UK agrees that more mine’s operating losses prior to closure in 2018 (“closure needs to be done by member states to complete the single market aid” under article 3 of the coal decision) and £94 million and that particular priority needs to be given to the facilitation of is aimed at mitigating the social and environmental new interconnection and investment projects. impacts of mine closure (article 4 aid for “exceptional The Commission and presidency will then report on the current costs”). situation in relation to European energy security. I wish to announce now that the Government will Finally, the Czech delegation is expected to present proposals ensure UKC miners receive their concessionary fuel on the European Nuclear Energy Forum. entitlements. [HCWS339] [HCWS343]

7P Petitions4 MARCH 2015 Petitions 8P Petition Signatures of Mr William Barrie Daden & Mrs Pauline May Daden —[Presented by Dr Liam Fox, Official Report, 5 January Wednesday 4 March 2015 2015; Vol. 590, c. 1p.] [P001418] OBSERVATIONS Observations from the Secretary of State for Justice: Mr William Barrie Daden and Mrs Pauline May Daden have filed a petition to review the effects of the Probate Claim claiming they have been suffered mental and JUSTICE physical damage for more than seven years. Redress and closure of a probate claim It is clear from the case history of this probate claim that this case has been subject to decisions made by To the House of Commons. members of the judiciary. The judiciary are deemed The petition of William Barrie Daden & Pauline constitutionally independent of Government and the May Daden administration of the Ministry of Justice (MOJ) and Declares that the petitioners believe they have suffered that of Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunal Service unjust mental and physical damage for more than a (HMCTS). For this reason the Government are unable period of seven years because Probate Claim Number to offer any comment on individual cases that have been 7BS30602 failed to meet the standard due process of subject to judicial decisions. law, i.e., the administration of justice according to This is not out of any lack of concern, but to do so established rules and principles; based on the principle would undermine the principle for judges to make decisions that a person cannot be deprived of life, liberty or in the without undue influence of Government. If Mr William case of the petitioners property without appropriate Barrie Daden and Mrs Pauline May Daden felt the legal procedures and safeguards and further that the decision made in this case was wrong, the remedy would petitioners believe they will continue to suffer indefinitely have been to take legal advice and to appeal to a if the Ministry of Justice do not undertake to review superior court, if so advised. This is also the remedy for and redress the continuing effects of Probate Claim anyone who has reason to believe that the case was Number 7BS30602. conducted improperly in some way. It may be worth noting that no further contact has been made by Mr William The petitioners therefore request that the House of Barrie Daden with HMCTS since the last court hearing Commons urge the Ministry of Justice to review and in Bristol on the 25 January 2010. HMCTS are not redress the effects of Probate Claim Number 7BS30602 permitted to offer any legal advice but would have in order that they may have closure. directed Mr William Barrie Daden to the Citizens Advice And the petitioner(s) remain(s) etc. Bureau for advice and support.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 4 March 2015

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 936 WALES—continued Engagements...... 936 Jobs Growth Wales ...... 932 Labour Market Trends...... 927 WALES...... 927 National Police Air Service (Dyfed Powys) ...... 935 Cross-Border Health Care...... 934 Severn Barrage...... 931 EU Membership ...... 929 Tourism...... 930 Income Tax Assignment...... 936 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Wednesday 4 March 2015

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 59WS ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 63WS UK Statistics Authority (2011 Census)...... 59WS Concessionary Coal ...... 63WS Energy Council ...... 64WS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 60WS Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre...... 60WS DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 61WS TREASURY ...... 59WS Returning Officers (Indemnity)...... 61WS Infrastructure (Sale of Eurostar)...... 59WS PETITION

Wednesday 4 March 2015

Col. No. JUSTICE...... 7P Redress and closure of a probate claim...... 7P Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 11 March 2015

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 4 March 2015

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 927] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Wales Prime Minister

Victims (Bill of Rights) [Col. 950] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Mr Llwyd)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Supply and Appropriation (Anticipation and Adjustments) Bill [Col. 952] Read a Second time; read the Third time and passed

Corporation Tax (Northern Ireland) Bill [Col. 953] As amended, considered; read the Third time and passed

Opposition Day [Unallotted half day] Future Government Spending [Col. 989] Motion—(Chris Leslie)—on a Division, negatived

Petitions [Col. 1045]

Financial Services Industry [Col. 1047] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Affordable Housing [Col. 287WH] Local Suicide Prevention Plans [Col. 315WH] Broadband [Col. 323WH] Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital (Stanmore) [Col. 347WH] Urban Food Growing (Planning) [Col. 354WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 59WS]

Petition [Col. 7P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http//www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]