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THE CORNWALL L’ENQUÊTE PUBLIQUE PUBLIC INQUIRY SUR CORNWALL Public Hearing Audience publique The Honourable Justice / Commissioner L’honorable juge Commissaire G. Normand Glaude VOLUME 183 Held at : Tenue à: Hearings Room Salle des audiences 709 Cotton Mill Street 709, rue de la Fabrique Cornwall, Ontario Cornwall, Ontario K6H 7K7 K6H 7K7 Wednesday, January 16 2008 Mercredi, le 16 janvier 2008 INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. www.irri.net (800) 899-0006 ii Appearances/Comparutions Mr. Peter Engelmann Lead Commission Counsel Ms. Julie Gauthier Registrar Ms. Maya Hamou Commission Counsel Mr. Peter Manderville Cornwall Police Service Board Ms. Suzanne Costom Ontario Provincial Police Me Claude Rouleau Ontario Ministry of Community and Correctional Services and Adult Community Corrections Mr. Darrell Kloeze Attorney General for Ontario Mr. Peter Chisholm The Children’s Aid Society of the United Counties Mr. Allan Manson Citizens for Community Renewal Mr. Dallas Lee Victims Group Mr. David Sherriff-Scott Diocese of Alexandria-Cornwall and Bishop Eugene LaRocque Mr. Michael Neville The Estate of Ken Seguin and Scott Seguin and Father Charles MacDonald Me Danielle Robitaille Mr. Jacques Leduc Mr. Mark Wallace Ontario Provincial Police Association Mr. Frank T. Horn Coalition for Action Mr. Ian Paul INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. iii Table of Contents / Table des matières Page List of Exhibits : iv GARRY GUZZO, Resumed/Sous le même serment 1 Cross-Examination by/Contre-interrogatoire par Mr. Darrell Kloeze 1 Cross-Examination by/Contre-interrogatoire par Mr. Michael Neville 16 Cross-Examination by/Contre-interrogatoire par Me Danielle Robitaille 96 Submissions by/Représentations par Mr. Peter Engelmann 117 Cross-Examination by/Contre-interrogatoire par Mr. Peter Manderville 119 Cross-Examination by/Contre-interrogatoire par Ms. Suzanne Costom 157 Cross-Examination by/Contre-interrogatoire par Mr. Mark Wallace 236 Re-Examination by/Ré-interrogatoire par Mr. Peter Engelmann 281 INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. iv LIST OF EXHIBITS/LISTE D’EXHIBITS NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE NO P-1141 (125335) Letter fr. Sylvia MacEachern to 105 the Judicial Conduct Committee – 09 Apr, 01 P-1142 (112772) Memorandum from Shelley Hallett to 111 Murray Segal – 18 Oct, 01 P-1143 (125537) Letter From Garry Guzzo to The 115 Honourable David Young – 06 Nov, 01 P-1144 (703922) OPP Property Report 171 P-1145 (700997) Ottawa Citizen"Pedophile ring porn 179 videos 'destroyed'" – 28 Aug, 01 P-1146 (125547) Letter from Garry Guzzo to Hon. 181 David Turnbull – 31 Oct, 01 P-1147 (111153) Letter from Peter Griffiths to 228 Tim Smith re: FCM – 21 Dec, 94 P-1148 (111152) Letter From Peter Griffiths to 228 Tim Smith – 21 Dec, 94 P-1149 (726226) OPP News Release re: Cornwall 228 Sexual Abuse Investigation – 28 Jul, 97 P-1150 (730454) OPP Press Release/News Conference 236 regarding Project Truth – 25 Sep,97 P-1151 (733127) Excerpts:7127665-67 of Supt. 254 Lewis' Handwritten Notes – 22 Nov, 00 P-1152 (123300) Ottawa Sun media clipping "MPP 288 Knocks Project Truth" – 22 Mar, 99 INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. PUBLIC HEARING 1 GUZZO AUDIENCE PUBLIQUE Cr-Ex(Kloeze) 1 --- Upon commencing at 9:34 a.m./ 2 L'audience débute à 9h34 3 THE REGISTRAR: This hearing of the Cornwall 4 Public Inquiry is now in session. The Honourable Mr. 5 Justice Normand Glaude, Commissioner, presiding. 6 Please be seated. Veuillez vous asseoir. 7 THE COMMISSIONER: Good morning all. Good 8 morning, Mr. Kloeze. 9 MR. KLOEZE: Good morning, Mr. Commissioner. 10 Good morning, Mr. Guzzo. 11 GARRY GUZZO, Resumed/Sous le même serment: 12 --- CROSS-EXAMINATION BY/CONTRE-INTERROGATOIRE PAR MR. 13 KLOEZE (Cont'd/Suite): 14 MR. GUZZO: Good morning, sir. 15 MR. KLOEZE: Mr. Guzzo, when we left off 16 yesterday afternoon, I was asking you about your 17 conversation with Mr. Segal of the Ministry of the Attorney 18 General in March 1999, and I was exploring with you what 19 Mr. Segal was telling you about the Dunlop documents and 20 Chief Fantino of the London Police. Do you recall that? 21 MR. GUZZO: Yes. 22 MR. KLOEZE: Now, you are aware, and I think 23 you mentioned it yesterday, that Mr. Fantino testified here 24 at this Inquiry? 25 MR. GUZZO: I am. INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. PUBLIC HEARING 2 GUZZO AUDIENCE PUBLIQUE Cr-Ex(Kloeze) 1 MR. KLOEZE: And you are aware that Mr. 2 Fantino testified that he did receive a brief of documents 3 from Dunlop's lawyer in December of 1996. Do you recall 4 that? 5 MR. GUZZO: I do. 6 MR. KLOEZE: And you were also told that by 7 the Dunlops themselves when they met with you in July of 8 1998? 9 MR. GUZZO: I think I was, yes. 10 MR. KLOEZE: Now, Mr. Fantino testified that 11 he sent that Dunlop brief to the Ontario Provincial Police 12 in February of 1997. Do you recall that? 13 MR. GUZZO: I read that, yes. 14 MR. KLOEZE: Okay. Now, his testimony was 15 that, that was the last time he had anything to do with the 16 Dunlop documents. He did not mention, in his evidence 17 here, receiving another set of Dunlop documents from the 18 Ministry. Are you aware of that? 19 MR. GUZZO: I think I read all of Chief 20 Fantino's testimony and I -- but I'm not sure, but I did 21 not see anything to that effect. 22 MR. KLOEZE: Okay. 23 So I am going to suggest to you again that 24 that's basically what Mr. Segal was telling you in his 25 conversation with you in March of 1999. He was telling you INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. PUBLIC HEARING 3 GUZZO AUDIENCE PUBLIQUE Cr-Ex(Kloeze) 1 that it was Dunlop, through his lawyer, that sent a brief 2 of documents to Chief Fantino, and he wasn't telling you or 3 suggesting in any way that the Ministry then sent another 4 set of Dunlop documents to Fantino a few months later. 5 Will you accept that? 6 MR. GUZZO: Well, sir, that is not my 7 recollection. I don't think that's what my notes say, and 8 certainly when I wrote the letter of April 3rd, it was fresh 9 in my mind for a number of reasons. He -- first of all, 10 when he contacted me, he did not seem to know what I was 11 talking about. Then he said -- he told me that they had 12 been forwarded to -- he knew then what he -- he focused on 13 what documentation I was talking about. He said, "I think 14 they were forwarded" or "I know they were forwarded onto 15 the Ontario Provincial Police." And then after a short 16 period of time of reviewing what he had in front of him he 17 said, "No, I'm wrong. They were forwarded to Chief 18 Fantino." 19 Now, I interpreted that, and I was very 20 clear in my mind that he had -- that your ministry had sent 21 them on to Chief Fantino. I think that's what he told me. 22 I know Chief Fantino had the documents. I 23 also know that Chief Fantino said he sent them to Wayne 24 Frechette. Three days before my conversation with the 25 Assistant Deputy Minister of your department, Mr. Segal, I INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. PUBLIC HEARING 4 GUZZO AUDIENCE PUBLIQUE Cr-Ex(Kloeze) 1 have a conversation on the phone with Mr. Frechette of 2 which I had notes and I documented in my letter to the 3 Chief of Staff of the Premier, and he told me he didn't 4 know what I was talking about. He too invited me to bring 5 my file to Toronto; he wanted to see it. And he too 6 notified my Ottawa office before I got back saying, "Don't 7 come. I don't have to see it. We now have located the 8 documents and don't bother me anymore." 9 MR. KLOEZE: Okay. You've given that 10 evidence In-Chief. 11 MR. GUZZO: Right. 12 MR. KLOEZE: And I understand that evidence, 13 Mr. Guzzo. I was just wanted to explore with you the 14 conversations with Mr. Segal right now. 15 MR. GUZZO: Let me just -- could I just make 16 one other point? 17 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. 18 MR. GUZZO: That I discussed that letter of 19 April 3rd and the contents relating to my phone call from 20 Mr. Segal and my phone call from Mr. Frechette with the two 21 cabinet ministers who were responsible for those 22 departments and quite frankly I, on more than one occasions 23 in the next few months, invited them to give me a response 24 and at no time, at no time, did Mr. Flaherty or Mr. 25 Runciman tell me that I was in error. INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. PUBLIC HEARING 5 GUZZO AUDIENCE PUBLIQUE Cr-Ex(Kloeze) 1 MR. KLOEZE: Now, the telephone call from 2 Mr. Segal, I understand, was a Monday evening in Florida at 3 your home there? 4 MR. GUZZO: Yes, it was. 5 MR. KLOEZE: And you were entertaining 6 guests. 7 MR. GUZZO: I don't -- I think our guests 8 were staying with us. 9 MR. KLOEZE: Okay. And he phoned, I think 10 you said, at the -- in your notes, you have it at 6:30 11 p.m., so he phoned at the dinner hour? 12 MR. GUZZO: He did, I think. It was at the 13 dinner hour, yes. 14 MR. KLOEZE: And you were not expecting the 15 call that you had from him? 16 MR. GUZZO: Well, I think, I think I was 17 expecting a call from him because I'm sure that he got the 18 number from my constituency office, and they would not have 19 given it to him if I had not okayed it.