PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

Fourth Delegated Legislation Committee

CARE OF CHURCHES AND ECCLESIASTICAL JURISDICTION (AMENDMENT) MEASURE

ECCLESIASTICAL PROPERTY MEASURE

CHURCH OF (PENSIONS) (AMENDMENT) MEASURE

Wednesday 28 January 2015

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The Committee consisted of the following Members:

Chair: MR JAMES GRAY

Austin, Ian (Dudley North) (Lab) † Leech, Mr John (Manchester, Withington) (LD) † Baldry, Sir Tony (Second Church Estates Love, Mr Andrew (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op) Commissioner) † McInnes, Liz (Heywood and Middleton) (Lab) † Barwell, Gavin (Lord Commissioner of Her † Murray, Sheryll (South East Cornwall) (Con) Majesty’s Treasury) † Randall, Sir John ( and South Ruislip) Blears, Hazel (Salford and Eccles) (Lab) (Con) Bryant, Chris (Rhondda) (Lab) † Shannon, Jim (Strangford) (DUP) † Doughty, Stephen (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ † Wheeler, Heather (South Derbyshire) (Con) Co-op) † Wollaston, Dr Sarah (Totnes) (Con) † Glindon, Mrs Mary (North Tyneside) (Lab) Graham, Richard (Gloucester) (Con) Katya Simms, Danielle Nash, Committee Clerks † Hemming, John (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD) † Jones, Mr David (Clwyd West) (Con) † attended the Committee 3 Fourth DelegatedHOUSE OF COMMONS Legislation Committee 4

other purposes, including payment of stipends for bishops Fourth Delegated Legislation and deans, and, very importantly, to support the ministry Committee in poorer parishes. The Measure will preserve the flexibility that they need to manage their endowment effectively and provide the greatest possible support for the Church. Wednesday 28 January 2015 The Care of Churches and Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction (Amendment) Measure amends two existing statutes: [MR JAMES GRAY in the Chair] the Care of Churches and Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction Measure 1991 and the Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction Measure Care of Churches and Ecclesiastical 1963. It is largely concerned with simplifying and streamlining various proceedings that take place within Jurisdiction (Amendment) Measure the faculty jurisdiction—the Church’s system for regulating works and other proposals that affect church buildings Ecclesiastical Property Measure and churchyards. Before any works to a church or in a churchyard can Church of England (Pensions) be undertaken, legal authority in the form of a faculty (Amendment) Measure has to be obtained. The faculty jurisdiction has developed so that proper account is taken of the views of all those who have an interest, including all the residents of the 8.55 am parish, as well as bodies such as English Heritage and The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Tony the national amenity societies. Baldry): I beg to move, The Measure gives legislative effect to proposals that That the Committee has considered the Care of Churches and were formulated by a simplification group established Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction (Amendment) Measure (HC 914). by the Archbishops Council, which reported to the General Synod in July 2013. The proposals were the result of The Chair: With this it will be convenient to consider extensive consultation with parishes and a wide range the Ecclesiastical Property Measure (HC 915) and the of other interested parties. Church of England (Pensions) (Amendment) Measure A central plank of the proposed reforms was the (HC 916). establishment of a national list of works that could be undertaken without having to go through the judicial Sir Tony Baldry: I hope that I will not have to delay process of obtaining a faculty. There would be a statutory the Committee for very long. I am grateful for the list of minor works that could simply be undertaken attendance of right hon. and hon. Members. For those locally without the need for any authority, provided who want to know about the relationship between that any prescribed conditions were complied with, Church and Parliament, I recommend they read the and there would be a further statutory list of more lecture that I gave in the Speaker’s lecture series just substantial but routine works that could be carried out before Christmas on Parliament and the Church, which without a faculty, subject to a light-touch regulatory can be found on my website at www.tonybaldry.co.uk. regime involving approval by the archdeacon, who would The Measures have been before the General Synod of be able to seek advice as needed from the diocesan the Church of England, where they have to be approved. advisory committee. They then came to the Ecclesiastical Committee of The Measure gives effect to these welcome proposals Parliament—a Committee made up of Members of both for deregulation and its other provisions are aimed Houses—which scrutinised them again. The Ecclesiastical simply at tidying up the existing system and removing Committee had to agree that the three Measures were obstacles and anomalies. expedient, and it has published reports stating that it The Ecclesiastical Property Measure makes some did deem them to be expedient. It is also noteworthy modest changes to the regime for parish property. First, that not a single Member of either House or of the it removes the requirement for a parochial church council General Synod voted against any of the Measures, so to obtain the consent of the diocesan authority before they were all carried without a single vote against. bringing legal proceedings. Secondly, it extends the The Church of England (Pensions) (Amendment) length of lease that can be granted without reference to Measure is extremely short and simple. It extends the the diocesan authority. Thirdly, it provides that the ’ power to spend the capital of consent of the diocesan authority is required only for their general fund on the payment of clergy pensions transactions with a value in excess of a figure to be for service before 1998. In 1997, when the legislation specified in an order made by the Archbishops Council that transferred responsibility for future service to the which will be laid before the General Synod and Parliament. Church of England Pensions Board was passed, a power With that explanation, I am sure that the Committee was conferred on the Church Commissioners to use will have confidence and pass the Measures without part of their capital to meet their historical pension delay. obligations. That power was initially conferred for seven years. It has been renewed twice since then, on each occasion for a further seven years. The Measure before 9am the Committee extends it for a further seven years to the Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ end of 2025. Co-op): It is a pleasure to serve under your Chairmanship, The continuing availability of the Commissioners’ Mr Gray, and to sit opposite the right hon. Member for power to spend capital on pensions enables them to use Banbury, whom I have got to know through many other the returns from their general fund for a wide range of issues during my time in Parliament. 5 Fourth Delegated28 JANUARY 2015 Legislation Committee 6

It is a pleasure to speak briefly from the Front Bench; he has done such a wonderful job in explaining the it is the third time I have done so. Unfortunately, on this Measures to us this morning that I do not propose to occasion it is because my hon. Friend the Member for do so. Rhondda is indisposed—I know that he would be here Question put and agreed to. with us otherwise. ECCLESIASTICAL PROPERTY MEASURE I am sorry to have missed the right hon. Member for Resolved, That the Committee has considered the Ecclesiastical Property Banbury’s lecture. I will definitely look it up. I take an Measure (HC 915).—(Sir Tony Baldry). interest in these matters as a member of the Church in Wales. Anglicans do things slightly differently in Wales, CHURCH OF ENGLAND (PENSIONS) (AMENDMENT) MEASURE but, as a former parishioner within the Church of Resolved, England, I take an interest and I will look at the lecture. That the Committee has considered the Church of England As the right hon. Member for Banbury explained, (Pensions) (Amendment) Measure (HC 916).—(Sir Tony Baldry). these matters are uncontroversial and have been passed 9.2 am by the Synod. I had thought to ask a few questions, but Committee rose.