Vol. 799 Thursday No. 350 3 October 2019

PARLIAMENTARYDEBATES (HANSARD) OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDEROFBUSINESS

Questions : Divergence from EU Standards ...... 1773 Inequality ...... 1775 British Citizenship ...... 1778 Brexit: Parliamentary Processes...... 1780 Business of the House Timing of Debates...... 1782 Review of Investigative and Scrutiny Committees (Liaison Committee Report) Motion to Agree...... 1783 Services, Procedure and Selection Committees Membership Motion ...... 1804 Deputy Chairmen of Committees Membership Motion ...... 1806 House of Lords Commission, Services, Liaison, Procedure and Selection Committees Communications Committee Social and Economic Impact of the Gambling Industry Committee Science and Technology Committee Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments Liaison Committee Membership Motions...... 1807 Offender Management and Treatment Motion to Take Note...... 1808 Brexit: Negotiations Statement...... 1848 Human Rights: Future Trade Motion to Take Note ...... 1867 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. No proofs of Daily Reports are provided. Corrections for the bound volume which Lords wish to suggest to the report of their speeches should be clearly indicated in a copy of the Daily Report, which, with the column numbers concerned shown on the front cover, should be sent to the Editor of Debates, House of Lords, within 14 days of the date of the Daily Report. This issue of the Official Report is also available on the Internet at https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2019-10-03

The first time a Member speaks to a new piece of parliamentary business, the following abbreviations are used to show their party affiliation: Abbreviation Party/Group CB Cross Bench Con Conservative DUP Democratic Unionist Party GP Green Party Ind Lab Independent Labour Ind LD Independent Liberal Democrat Ind SD Independent Social Democrat Ind UU Independent Ulster Unionist Lab Labour Lab Co-op Labour and Co-operative Party LD Liberal Democrat LD Ind Liberal Democrat Independent Non-afl Non-affiliated PC Plaid Cymru UKIP UK Independence Party UUP Ulster Unionist Party

No party affiliation is given for Members serving the House in a formal capacity, the Lords spiritual, Members on leave of absence or Members who are otherwise disqualified from sitting in the House. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2019, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 1773 Brexit: Divergence from EU Standards[3 OCTOBER 2019] Brexit: Divergence from EU Standards 1774

House of Lords Lord Lamont of Lerwick (Con): Does my noble friend agree that the freedom to diverge from European Thursday 3 October 2019 regulations is, as the Prime Minister said, one of the important reasons for leaving the EU, although this 11 am will probably apply more to future regulation in evolving technologies such as fintech? Does he also agree that while, like any third country, such as the United States, Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Newcastle. we have to observe EU regulation when we sell into the EU market, when we sell into our own market or trade with each other it is a matter for the UK Parliament? Brexit: Divergence from EU Standards Question Lord Callanan: As always on these matters, my noble friend speaks great sense. I agree with the points 11.06 am that he has made. The ability to set our own regulations and to adopt a nimble and flexible approach to regulations Asked by Lord Wallace of Saltaire on future technologies would be one of the great To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they advantages of leaving the EU. intend to inform Parliament of their priorities and objectives in the areas in which they wish to diverge Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab): My Lords, does the from standards by way of United Minister agree that the previous Conservative Kingdom regulations. Government, before the recent change, said that they would keep up with the changes to minimum standards? Is he saying that there has been no change in policy The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the since that time or that there has been a change in European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con): The UK already policy since that time? goes beyond EU minimum standards in a number of areas, such as working rights and environmental protections. Our high regulatory standards are not Lord Callanan: I am saying that one of the great dependent on EU membership. After leaving the EU, advantages of our new, upcoming independence will we will be free to set our own laws and the Government be the ability to set our own regulations and standards, will continue an ambitious and flexible approach to determined in this House. I am really not sure why the make smarter and more efficient regulation. Any future Opposition want Jean-Claude Juncker to determine changes to regulations will be subject to the appropriate our environmental standards rather than the British parliamentary scrutiny. people and the British Parliament.

Lord Fox (LD): My Lords, during proceedings on Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): I thank the noble the international trade Bill, your Lordships’ House Lord for that Answer, which tells me exactly nothing. I spent a lot of time talking about regulations and am even more confused than when I put this Question standards. The Minister at the time made a lot of down, because I see in the various documents that we undertakings about maintaining or, indeed, exceeding had yesterday that we are now about to have, current standards. That Bill has now been summarily “continued regulatory alignment for a potentially prolonged period scrapped. Meanwhile, the Secretary of State, Liz Truss, across the whole island of Ireland”. talks about having a low-regulation economy. That is That suggests that, if we are going to keep Northern why we on these Benches are concerned about the Irish and British standards the same, we will not issue. Who is right: those on your Benches who talk diverge. The Written Statement in the noble Lord’s about high standards or the Secretary of State, who name says that, talks about a low-regulation economy? “we will be negotiating a revised Political Declaration”. I assume that that is about divergence of regulations, Lord Callanan: We believe in having high standards among other things. Are the Government trying to say and we believe that we should determine these matters different things to different audiences? I think that for ourselves. I can give the Liberal Democrats some they are. Are we planning to go back to what happened examples. On maternity entitlement, the UK standard before Margaret Thatcher developed the European is 39 weeks, whereas the EU standard is 14 weeks. On single market, which was to move towards adopting annual leave, the UK has 5.6 weeks, whereas the EU US regulations? Or are the Government simply not has four. We have higher environmental standards on going to tell us what we are doing? greenhouse gas emissions: we were the first in the world to legislate on that. We already exceed the EU Lord Callanan: I am not sure why this is such a minimum requirements.Weare a high-standards economy difficult concept for the Liberal Democrats to grasp. and proud of it. We should be able to determine these There are EU minimum standards. In most of these things for ourselves. areas—whether it be holiday pay, maternity entitlement, annual leave or emissions standards—the UK goes Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con): Will my beyond those standards as a matter of our sovereign noble friend answer a simple question? When we leave choice. Why do the Liberal Democrats not have any the European Union on 31 October, we leave the confidence in our ability to determine our own standards? jurisdiction of the European Commission to apply 1775 Brexit: Divergence from EU Standards [LORDS] Inequality 1776

[BARONESS MCINTOSH OF PICKERING] Lord McNicol of West Kilbride (Lab): My Lords, any environmental standards, but the Government over the past nine years we have seen a huge rise in the have not yet established the office for environmental number of food banks across the . protection. Which body will decide which environmental The Trussell Trust’s figures on this are just frightening. standards apply? If the Government truly wanted to end the widening inequality,they could begin by tackling the ever-increasing Lord Callanan: The environmental standards that poverty across the UK. Can the Minister justify to the will apply initially will be those that we have imported House why 4 million children in Britain are now at risk into UK law under the EU withdrawal Act, but we of malnutrition as a result of living in poverty? More have the flexibility to change these things in future. We importantly, what are the Government’s plans to reduce are committed to setting up that environmental standards inequality and poverty across the UK? body and I am sure that we will want to do that as soon as parliamentary time allows. Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, I was a nutritionist before I went into politics. Some people on Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab): My Lords, low incomes might find the suggestion that their children given that, according to the Minister, we will have were necessarily malnourished to be insulting—in fact, different standards from the EU but that, as we heard rich people may well be malnourished. Malnutrition yesterday, will be aligned with EU and undernutrition are two different things. Malnutrition standards and regulations for at least four years, I take obviously correlates with inadequate diet, but not it that there will be a border between Great Britain necessarily with poverty. and Northern Ireland on standards. Is that right? The 4 million figure to which the noble Lord refers is for the number of children living in low-income Lord Callanan: There are already checks, of course, households, relative to the population as a whole. because Ireland is a single epidemiological unit. Therefore, There is no evidence to suggest that there are 4 million there are already checks in the Irish Sea on live animal children in food-insecure households. However, I accept exports, et cetera. If these proposals are accepted—we his point about food banks. As he will know, the will see how the negotiations go—there will need to be reasons for that are many and varied. I also accept a small increase in the number of checks done. that the initial rollout of UC led to some of the proliferation of food banks. Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con): Does not my noble friend think that, had we been able to make our Lord Bird (CB): My Lords, is it possible to accept own regulations in respect of emissions standards, we the fact that we would be able to ride a coach and might have avoided the appalling scandal related to horses through those figures over the next five or diesel engines and the great distress that it has caused 10 years if we did something about the 35% of children to many of our citizens who have diesel cars? who we fail at school? Let us put education first. When you look at that 35%, they are the people who have all the cheap jobs and are the long-term unemployed, Lord Callanan: My noble friend makes a good as well as filling up our A&Es. point. It is a matter of national self-confidence: we should be able to determine these things for ourselves. I really do not see why that is such a difficult concept Baroness Williams of Trafford: I could not agree for the Opposition to grasp. more with the noble Lord that education is absolutely key to good nutritional status and prospects for employment in future life. Inequality Question Lord Howell of Guildford (Con): My Lords, is not one of the best ways to meet the concerns of inequality, 11.14 am which are certainly evident in society today, to turn more earners into owners? That would bring future Asked by Lord McNicol of West Kilbride wealth to millions of households, giving them the dignity and status that some kind of savings and To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps ownership provide. Is that not the best way to advance they have taken to reduce inequality in the United ownership by the public in a genuine sense, rather than Kingdom. in the bogus sense of the past?

The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con): My Lords, under this Government, Baroness Williams of Trafford: As always, my noble income inequality is down. We believe that having a friend speaks great sense. Ownership is not just the key strong economy and welfare system that helps people to future prosperity. It has huge benefits to people into work is the only sustainable solution to disadvantage. through their well-being. I totally agree with him. I am proud that there are 400,000 fewer people in absolute poverty before housing costs, compared to Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD): My Lords, much of 2010, and that the lowest paid have seen their wages what the Minister says sounds reassuring. Can she grow by 8% above inflation—the fastest of any group therefore perhaps explain why the ONS is reporting a since 2015. large fall in life expectancy for women living in the 1777 Inequality [3 OCTOBER 2019] British Citizenship 1778 most deprived areas, in contrast to continued increases Baroness Williams of Trafford: Again, going back in life expectancy for women living in the least deprived to a previous life in Trafford, we have no private areas? In its own words: secondary schools at all and we are one of the top- “This has led to a significant widening in the inequality in life performing LEAs in the country. I do not think we can expectancy”. say either that private education is good or state Should the Government not be a little less complacent? education is bad. The standards and performance in schools are key to a child’s future. We should look to areas of very good practice, such as in Trafford, to see Baroness Williams of Trafford: I think the noble how we can improve our state education system. Baroness will know that I am not complacent at all. I take the point she makes about life expectancy. It is not just women; it is the population as a whole. British Citizenship Certainly, in Trafford, people’s life expectancy in its Question more affluent areas is something like nine years higher than for their neighbours in less affluent areas one 11.22 am mile away. This is due to a variety of reasons, as she Lord Dubs will know, but it is not something that the Government Asked by are not concerned about. Of course prevention in Toask Her Majesty’sGovernment what assessment many areas, such as smoking, is key to some of the they have made of the effectiveness of the procedures outcomes for those people. for acquiring British citizenship.

Baroness Whitaker (Lab): My Lords, the report on The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams Travellers and Roma was published some time ago. of Trafford) (Con): My Lords, UK Visas and Immigration In the much-regretted absence of the noble Lord, anticipates that about 178,000 applications will be Lord Bourne, from the Front Bench, which Minister is processed during 2019-20. Following the introduction responsible for taking this forward and when will the of streamlined processes, around 80% of applications Government’s detailed plan be published? are now submitted online. As a result, as at August 2019, 99.4% of straightforward applications were decided Baroness Williams of Trafford: I was the Minister within the six-month service standard. responsible way back when, but I think that role has now been taken by the noble Viscount, Lord Younger. Lord Dubs (Lab): My Lords, the Minister will, I am sure, be aware of an official book called Life in the United Kingdom: A Guide for New Residents. First, The Lord Bishop of Newcastle: My Lords, Newcastle can she justify the fact that the examples given of was one of the pilot areas for the rollout of universal eminent British people are almost all men and that, in credit. It also has one of the largest food banks in the some respects, women have been airbrushed out of United Kingdom. I have warmly welcomed the changes British life? Secondly, a number of questions arise that to universal credit that have ameliorated some of the are supposed to be relevant to life in Britain. I will try terrible things that happened in the beginning. However, her out on one: when was the Giant’s Causeway is anything being done to help those people who were formed—40 million, 50 million or 60 million or 70 million the guinea pigs, who were plunged into poverty and years ago? Will the Minister care to hazard an answer? have not managed to come out of it? I would be Also: when did Henry VIII die—January 1547, January grateful to know whether anything is being done. 1557, February 1547 or February 1557? I am sure that these are relevant to life in Britain. Can the Minister Baroness Williams of Trafford: I say to the right answer any of these questions, please? reverend Prelate that we are working with areas such as Newcastle that have food banks. We are also working Baroness Williams of Trafford: The noble Lord, with the food banks more closely to better support who is actually my noble friend, has issued me with a those people who, as she says, might initially have double humiliation. As someone whose father is from fallen into that pit, perhaps, of the ever-increasing Northern Ireland, I am ashamed that I cannot answer sets of problems that arose from that initial problem his question, but I will guess at 50 million years ago. with UC. Noble Lords: Yes! Baroness Bull (CB): My Lords, does the Minister agree with the findings of the Social Mobility Commission Baroness Williams of Trafford: That is called the that one of the great perpetrators of inequality in the luck of the Irish, my Lords. On the second question UK is our twin-track education system, which sees about Henry VIII, I really have no idea, but then I am 7% of young people benefit from an education resourced Irish, so maybe I can be granted leeway on that. There at three times the level of the other 93%? As we know, are points about the Life in the UK test and how much this 7% are more likely to go on and earn top salaries detail and knowledge we can expect people to have, so in top jobs. Can she tell the House when we can expect I take the noble Lord’s point. the further detailed recommendations promised in the commission’s last report on what can be done to Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con): My Lords, I spread more equitably the benefits that accrue from declare an interest as someone who has only recently private education? become a British citizen. That was in the last hour of 1779 British Citizenship [LORDS] Brexit: Parliamentary Processes 1780

[BARONESS GARDNER OF PARKES] Many of the issues we are discussing now were dealt the last day of the last Labour Government, when with in that Citizenship and Civic Engagement Committee. they passed an amendment such that a Member of Will the Minister go back to the new Home Secretary this House could automatically become a British citizen. and ask whether we could make progress, both on the I do not know how or how often that is publicised, but issues that were just raised by the Member from the Liberal it is a fact, and I am grateful to the Government for it. Democrat Benches, but also on the Life in the UK Before then, I had to produce a right of abode, which test? When it came in 17 years ago, I promise your produced all sorts of documents that went back to Lordships that it did not include a question on the birth certificates and everything under the sun. I have Giant’s Causeway. Could we look urgently at making also helped other people, with the help of a particular it relevant, sensible and usable for people gaining noble and learned Lord, who had been Lord Chief citizenship in the UK? Justice. He and I took 10 years to get British citizenship for someone who well deserved it, so I think there is Baroness Williams of Trafford: I assure the noble something very wrong about this position. I am not Lord that I will take back both his point and that of complaining because I was given only a six-month visa the noble Lord, Lord Paddick. I thank him; we have when I arrived; at least I was given that. Some people all been educated this morning, not least myself. I was are getting nothing and some are involved in enormously thinking about the analogy with Trivial Pursuit: if the long procedures, but they get something in the end. same questions have been in play for a number of How many years is it taking? Can it be speeded up in years, this may be an opportunity to update them. any way? I will certainly take that point back. Baroness Williams of Trafford: Like my noble friend, I have tried to assist the many noble Lords who have Brexit: Parliamentary Processes asked me questions about immigration, citizenship, et cetera. They are complex, and Members of your Question Lordships’ House have shown me just how complex they are, not least my noble friend. I am glad that her 11.30 am case was resolved, in the end. But it is important that, Asked by Lord Cormack to become a British citizen, you demonstrate your commitment to this country. Some of our rules have To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps been in place for years, but I accept that there are they will take in Parliament (1) to enable the United many different avenues that one might take for the Kingdom to leave the European Union on 31 October, various types of access arrangements. and (2) to comply with the provisions of the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act 2019. Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB): Could it not be simplified?

Baroness Williams of Trafford: I am sure my right The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the honourable friend the Home Secretary will consider European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con): Yesterday, the that in due course. Government put forward a proposal for an amended protocol on Ireland and Northern Ireland that means Lord Paddick (LD): My Lords, refugee families that we can leave the European Union without disruption. often have to make repeated applications for leave to The proposal is a fair and reasonable compromise remain, before becoming eligible for British citizenship, for all sides that respects the referendum result. We are paying thousands of pounds at each stage, potentially sure that Parliament will want to work with the costing tens of thousands of pounds overall—way Government to on 31 October. above the actual cost to the Home Office of processing their applications. Does the Minister accept that the Lord Cormack (Con): Yes, my Lords, and I hope government policy of overcharging positively discourages that is the case, but my noble friend has not answered those seeking sanctuary in the UK? All these people the Question. There is an that want is to contribute to and integrate with British obliges the Government to take certain steps if we society. have not left the EU. Yesterday, my noble friend kept repeating the mantra, “We will obey the law”, but he Baroness Williams of Trafford: The Home Office did not explain how, nor how you reconcile these two does not make a profit from application fees. The things. Will he now please tell the House what the income that it derives is used to fund other vital areas Government have in mind? of the borders, immigration and citizenship service. We have always provided refugees with exceptions to the need to pay application fees for leave to remain, in Lord Callanan: The Government have in mind that specific circumstances. That might be for refugees or we will attempt to negotiate a new and improved deal those living in local authority care. with the European Union that will enable the referendum result to be respected. Beyond that, we will abide by Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab): My Lords— the law.

Lord Blunkett (Lab): My Lords, 18 months ago, I Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab): Will the Minister do was pleased to serve on a Select Committee of this the House the courtesy of trying to answer the Question House chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson. asked by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack? How do the 1781 Brexit: Parliamentary Processes [3 OCTOBER 2019] Business of the House 1782

Government intend to reconcile the apparently represent that community whose support for this may irreconcilable positions of potentially crashing out of be required who were consulted during the drafting of Europe on 31 October and adhering to the law that this provision and whether the Government have their says that, if an agreement has not been reached by support, as they appear to have of the DUP? 19 October, then the Government must ask for an extension? I am sure that Downing Street has a cunning plan—or at least a Cummings plan—to reconcile the Lord Callanan: The great thing about this proposal irreconcilables, but can the Minister at least give this is that it has attracted support from across the sector, House the guarantee that the Government will abide including, I am delighted to say, from a number of not just by the letter but by the spirit of the European Labour MPs who take quite a constructive approach Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act? In view of the to wanting to deliver on the referendum result. It Supreme Court judgment, he should be in a position looks as though we have a majority assembled for this to give the House that very guarantee. provision, but we still have a lot of hard negotiating to do. We will endeavour to bring back a proposal that will enjoy widespread support across all communities Lord Callanan: The noble Lord was obviously a and all parties. loss to stand-up comedy. I repeat the assurances that I gave that the Government will of course at all times abide by the law. I have to say that, if the Opposition Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con): Does the Minister spent half as much time helping us to negotiate a agree that there is an irony in this Question, which better deal as they do undermining our negotiating calls on the Prime Minister to comply with the provisions position, we might be able to get a deal that we could of the European Union (Withdrawal) (No.2) Act? all get behind and we would not have to go near Section 1(4) of that Act says that we should apply for obsessing about the provisions of the Benn Act. an extension, “in order to debate and pass a Bill to implement the agreement Lord Framlingham (Con): My Lords, does the Minister between the United Kingdom and the European Union under agree with me that most Acts of Parliament are designed Article 50(2)”, to benefit the people of this country, and the surrender requiring the Prime Minister to give an undertaking Act is simply a ruse designed by those who want to that he can pass an agreement which has been consistently stop us leaving the EU to tie the hands of our Prime rejected by the House of Commons because of Labour Minister at this crucial time? I believe that it is a move going through particular Division Lobbies. that they, and this House, will live to regret. Lord Callanan: My noble friend makes a sensible Lord Callanan: I agree with my noble friend. I think point. It appears to many of us that this Bill was the Benn Act was designed to undermine our negotiating designed to try to undermine the UK’s negotiating position by people who actually do not want to leave position. It was interesting that we had six hours of the EU but do not have the courage to admit to the debate on EU withdrawal yesterday and nobody—either British people that that is what they in fact desire. from the Labour Front Bench, where we had two speakers, or the numerous speakers from the Labour Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My Lords, at the Back Bench—but nobody had anything to say on beginning of this Session, the Government set out a Labour’s position on this, because, of course, its position series of Bills that needed to be passed in order to is ridiculous. Its position is that it wants to go to the provide for an orderly Brexit. These included Bills on European Union, negotiate a new deal, come back trade, immigration, fisheries and agriculture, none of and then vote against it. What a shabby Opposition which has yet proceeded through this House, completed they have become. their progress and become Acts. Do the Government intend that we have a disorderly Brexit without the legislative framework, or are we intending to sit Saturdays Business of the House and Sundays for the last two weeks in October in order Timing of Debates to get the legislative framework in place? 11.37 am Lord Callanan: As I said to the noble Lord before, we are able to give him the reassurance that he needs Tabled by Baroness Evans of Bowes Park that we already have all the necessary legislative framework That the debate on the motion in the name of in place that will allow us to leave the European Union Lord Ramsbotham set down for today shall be on 31 October in an orderly fashion. limited to 3 hours and that in the name of Lord Harries of Pentregarth to 2 hours. Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab): My Lords, given the special voting arrangements that apply to the Northern Ireland Assembly, which quite deliberately give a veto Earl Howe (Con): My Lords, in the absence of my to the minority for certain decisions, I anticipate that noble friend the Leader of the House and on her the Government thought that those might be triggered behalf, I beg to move the Motion standing in her name by the decision of the Assembly that this deal offer on the Order Paper. requires. To that extent, will the Minister tell the House the names of those nationalist politicians who Motion agreed. 1783 Review of Investigative Committee[LORDS] Review of Investigative Committee 1784

Review of Investigative and Scrutiny the existing titles and remits of some sessional committees. Committees (Liaison Committee Report) Taken together, these measures will ensure that our committee structure provides more comprehensive Motion to Agree coverage of the major areas of public policy and limit the potential for scrutiny gaps in the future. 11.38 am Some areas of public policy, including energy and Moved by The Senior Deputy Speaker the environment and home affairs, are currently addressed principally through our That the Report from the Select Committee Review and its sub-committees. The report ring-fences the EU of Investigative and Scrutiny Committees: Towards a Committee and its sub-committees at this stage, leaving new thematic committee structure (6th Report, HL them unchanged, but it acknowledges that further Paper 398) be agreed to. work in this respect will be required by the Liaison Committee in the months ahead. To assist the comprehensive approach, we have also agreed that I The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith): should convene a committee chairs forum, to meet This report is the outcome of the most comprehensive three times a year or so. The idea of this forum comes review of our committee structure that has ever been from one of the excellent current practices of the undertaken. After the most thorough inquiry, we have National Assembly for Wales, about which we heard proposed the start of a significant change in the evidence. positioning of our committees to begin to put in place a thematic approach which will ensure more The chairs forum, for the first time, will provide a comprehensive scrutiny of all the major areas of public mechanism for committee chairs and members and policy. the wider membership of the House to ensure that Our approach to updating the way in which Lords’ effective scrutiny of all major public policy areas is committees operate has been evolutionary, seeking to taking place, identifying any gaps in scrutiny or committee adapt to today’scircumstances while providing a platform remits, addressing any overlap and providing a potential to respond properly to future changes. The evidence avenue for the wider membership of the House to gathered by the review means that the House does not make committee chairs and the Liaison Committee need to wait years for another comprehensive review, aware of particular issues. The forum will help to but can instead respond flexibly on a continuing basis ensure that our committees can respond quickly to to new developments and to the constant technological societal and technological changes, as well as ongoing and societal change which is reshaping the world in public policy developments. which we operate. Special inquiry committees provide an important Recommendations in the report will bring more opportunity for Back-Bench Members of the House flexibility and responsiveness to changing circumstances to propose topics for one-off committee inquiries, and for our committees, allowing them to engage with the the Liaison Committee receives a large number of emerging policies of the day without losing any of the proposals from Members each year. However, two quality and depth of research for which Lords committees particular criticisms of their operation were made are well known. during the review. The first related to Back-Bench Member engagement and involvement in the initial One of the key principles guiding our recommendations process of topic selection, while the second identified was that the committees’ structure should be the limited capacity for follow-up once the committee comprehensive, avoiding scrutiny gaps and allowing had disbanded following the conclusion of its inquiry. the House a degree of focus upon all major areas of public policy.House of Lords committees have developed To address the first of these issues, we have piecemeal over the past five decades and the lack of a recommended the introduction of an additional stage guiding logic for the overall committee structure has in the topic selection process. In future, the Member of resulted in significant gaps arising in our scrutiny. The the House who has proposed a shortlisted special inquiry principal policy areas that have suffered from a lack of topic will be invited to appear before the Liaison detailed scrutiny are social affairs and public services, Committee to present their case in person. The committee including health and education. will then consider their direct representations before Although there are inevitably other omissions, deciding which topics to propose for the agreement of compelling evidence to the review suggested that the House. We hope that this new process will allow introducing a thematic structure for our committees Members to be reassured that their case has been would offer the most coherent approach to filling the heard, loud and clear. current major gaps in scrutiny.We therefore recommend To address the issue of post-inquiry follow-up, we a number of measures to put this into place, chief recommend that, at a convenient point after publication among them being the appointment of a new sessional of the special inquiry committee’s report, the chair of committee on public services, with terms of reference the former committee can formally request that the which require it to consider public services including Liaison Committee hold a small number of evidence health and education. This would address a major sessions to follow up the initial inquiry recommendations. omission in our current committee structure, and it is If the case for follow-up is accepted by the committee, notable that topics which would fall under this heading it will then co-opt the chair and three members of the figure prominently in each year’s list of proposals for former committee on to the Liaison Committee, hold special inquiry committees. To address scrutiny gaps evidence sessions and publish a short committee report, further, we recommend a small number of changes to to which the Government must then respond in the 1785 Review of Investigative Committee[3 OCTOBER 2019] Review of Investigative Committee 1786 usual fashion. This change will bring added rigour committees, while also providing new Members with to the special inquiry process, allowing chairs and the opportunity to serve. The effect of the rotation members to follow up properly the recommendations rule can be particularly pronounced when its rigid they have made and to scrutinise the impact that such application results in large numbers of Members being recommendations have had upon government policy. rotated off a committee simultaneously. It is also Within the report we strongly endorse the work predicated on an expectation that the duration of a undertaken by specialist scrutiny committees, including Session will be approximately 12 months, but recent the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, the experience has not been consistent with this expectation. Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee and the We therefore recommend that the Procedure Committee Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. should undertake a review of the rotation rule. The House relies heavily upon the scrutiny work of When the rotation rule was applied earlier this year, these committees; it is important that they continue to on 1 July, a number of Members remarked on the perform their work effectively.We also strongly endorse gender balance of committee membership and chairs. the importance of pre-legislative scrutiny of draft I have since met with concerned members of the Bills, as well as setting out a small number of measures House, including the noble Baronesses, Lady Goudie to enhance post-legislative scrutiny. We conclude that and Lady Parminter. The report before us notes that one special inquiry each year should continue to be the House of Lords Commission, in its response to focused on post-legislative scrutiny. the UK Gender-Sensitive Parliament Audit 2018, asked Moving beyond structural changes, a key finding of the Committee of Selection to carry out annual the review was that we need to give much more attention monitoring of Lords committee membership and chairing. and impetus to communicating the work and impact It might be helpful if I inform the House that the of our committees. Professor Sir Anton Muscatelli, Committee of Selection has now agreed that such principal of the University of Glasgow, told us that, statistics should be collated in February/March each year and published before the House rises for the “most of the outstanding work of committees goes on under the Easter Recess. The publication timing before Easter radar, so far as the general public is concerned”. should ensure that monitoring can properly inform He was not alone in making this argument. The the nomination of new committee chairs and members, report recommends a much more ambitious approach and the replacement of members and chairs rotated to communicating externally, with a dedicated off sessional committees. I hope that this action will communications strategy to be embedded from the reassure Members that we are serious about addressing beginning of each new committee inquiry. this matter. Wepropose a greater degree of focus on identification In conclusion, it is my firm belief that our of potential audiences, including a wider range of recommendations for an improved, comprehensive witnesses and an increase in the use of active social committee structure, with more flexibility and greater media and digital platforms across committees, as well capacity for follow-up, will allow us to build on the as producing reports in a wider range of formats that considerable strengths of our current committee work. can be better received by target audiences. In an Our proposals for improved committee communications unelected Chamber, it is important that our committees with wider reach and engagement, both within and provide an opportunity to engage the public directly beyond the House, will allow us to have a greater in the work of the House. We also recommend an impact and profile, and to be informed by a greater increase in the number of events and seminars held variety of expertise and experience.Our recommendations during inquiries and post-report publication, in order will allow committees to play a greater part in the that committees might broaden their audience and work of the House, encourage greater engagement impact. and interaction with the full membership of the House, We also set out a number of measures to ensure and enhance the relevance and reputation of the House that the work of committees is better communicated by making us more responsive to the major issues of within Parliament. A frequent complaint that I encounter the day. is that Members of the House have limited information I pay tribute to all chairs and members who bring regarding the activity of committees.They would welcome so much to the committee activity in this House and hope more insight into their work and how they might and anticipate that they can use the recommendations usefully contribute their expertise and experience. in this report to deliver still more in the future. I beg Accordingly, we recommend the publication of a new to move. regular report on committee activity for all Members of the House. We also recommend that debates on 11.51 am committee reports should usually be held within three Lord Howell of Guildford (Con): My Lords, this is months of the report being published, to ensure relevance an excellent and very comprehensive review and the when the debate is held. We also recommend that noble Lord, Lord McFall, who we have just listened the Procedure Committee should examine ways in to, has been doing an absolutely excellent job in building which greater opportunity could be made available to up all the work behind it and in his continuing efforts highlight important committee work on the Floor of to modernise and make much more effective our the House. committee structure in your Lordships’ House. My Another area where we have recommended attention comments will focus entirely on the investigative from the Procedure Committee relates to the rotation committees—the sessional and ad hoc committees—not rule. There is a difficult balance to be struck between the many other management, pre- and post-legislative allowing continuity of membership and expertise on scrutiny committees, and so on. 1787 Review of Investigative Committee[LORDS] Review of Investigative Committee 1788

[LORD HOWELL OF GUILDFORD] addresses investigatively the issues that really concern My only difference—it is a mild one, but nevertheless people today. Those are different from the patterns of it runs through the report—arises from comments in the 20th century, which tend to flavour the list that we paragraph 51 on “delivering a new structure”. That is have before us now and tend to be covered by the what I want to talk about. That paragraph says: pattern of the six European committees. I believe the “Our EU Committee and its six subcommittees will be ‘ring-fenced’ whole pattern should now change, regardless of and until we can analyse the implications of Brexit … Some policy without waiting for Brexit. We should have a pattern areas, for example energy and the environment, and home affairs, of modern issues and modern committees meeting the are principally covered by EU committees at present”. problems of now and the future, not the old categories I believe there is a misapprehension, particularly in of the 20th century,where the debates are now redundant that last sentence. Those three—energy, environment and largely out of date. and home affairs—are by no means covered entirely Lastly, a broader issue in all this—as the noble by the European prism. These are global issues that Lord, Lord McFall, has recognised very succinctly have transformed and grown to a vast degree in the and is tackling with great energy—is of course how last few years. We are dealing with an entirely new successfully we depict the overall work and character global environment in relation to these three issues, of your Lordships’ House and the way in which its and they are not the only ones. This matter has evolved Members are networked in a hive of activities, not over the last 10 years and, indeed, was important long only in these Lords Committees or Joint Committees before the Brexit issue had even arisen, let alone now it or in myriad other parliamentary groups and interests, has gone the way it has. but in a wider network of civil society, through countless The point that needs to be grasped a little more individual links and connections. This makes the House clearly in addressing our future committee structure is of Lords, condemned by critics as backward-aligned, that today’s issues are very different from those of the a body in fact uniquely suited to the modern and 20th century. The problems of today and tomorrow future digital age of high connectivity and a unique will be concerned with the rise of China, the dominance bridge between the necessary central institutions of of Asian power, where all the growth and dynamism governance and legislation and the public, in a manner will be in the next 10 years, and a totally transformed found nowhere else in the world. It is this intense trade network that no longer conforms to the old pattern of both committee activity and of links and pattern and is dominated by knowledge industries and ties across the nation that makes your Lordships’ services to a point that makes all trade policy issues of House, in my view, very much what has been called a the last 20 years out of date. It is a world in which war “platform for the future”. There remains, of course, and defence as a concept has changed. As the CGS the question of how this is to be explained, and how pointed out the other day, we are now in a world of the broader challenge of the public perception of the almost continuous warfare. The idea that a war happens House of Lords is to be met. Having a thoroughly and then it ends is a concept belonging to yesterday. modern framework, with categories addressing the We are in a world where technology cannot just be real issues of today and tomorrow and recognising the wrapped up in a little box called “science”, but where pervasive and transformative effect of new technologies it dominates everything. It is transforming the pattern to all our social and international affairs, is a start in of world power, our societies, the way we behave, our overcoming that challenge. politics—as we know very well from our daily debates— questions of environment, industry and international 11.59 am trade flows and supply lines. The question of energy, Lord Whitty (Lab): My Lords, the whole House far from being just a European matter, is now of owes the noble Lord, Lord McFall, and his colleagues course a climate matter as well. It is interwoven with a vote of thanks for this report, because it moves us geopolitics and our international security on a massive into a new era. In particular, I strongly support the scale. The question of home affairs is now shot through move to a more comprehensive system of thematic with questions about identity politics, which transform policy committees. I will, however, suggest a few attitudes to the way in which social policy should be modifications, some of which overlap points made by organised throughout the United Kingdom. the noble Lord, Lord Howell. The question of migration and the movements of The work of the investigative and policy committees people—which in the last 10 years has grown to a scale of the House of Lords is widely respected, recognised never before known in history—requires a concentration and appreciated. But it is not clear how influential all and focus that cannot just be wrapped up in international that work is in society and among decision-makers affairs, communications or anything else. The question outside this Palace. Authoritative reports and in-depth of vast inequalities of hypercapitalism and the need analysis that appear on the bookshelves of the movers for wealth sharing is, again, an issue that cannot just and shakers of Britain and Europe in the form of be put aside under economic affairs. I would perhaps House of Lords reports are all very well, but we need add to that the question of our network relations with to make sure that a wider influence is exerted on the giant new networks of Asia and, particularly, the minds throughout the kingdom and beyond. That network of the Commonwealth. These are matters means a broader engagement, as is recognised by this that transcend the normal areas of international relations. report. The House needs to catch up with changes in My point is that we should have started on these society, technology and communications to enable us things long ago. Brexit should not be a marking point to engage with, and act for,a wider range of organisations merely indicating when we should start changing these and individuals. In that regard, we require reform of committee patterns. We need a committee pattern that process and the form of the final product. 1789 Review of Investigative Committee[3 OCTOBER 2019] Review of Investigative Committee 1790

With regard to process, our established mode of kinds of people whose expertise was being underused. operating involves contacting organisations—most of I am not saying that we should have committees of which are on a pre-existing list—and others and bringing experts—we need not only the experts from this House them to Westminster or asking them to write to us, but also its lay Members, including in that context the with occasional excursions outside , usually to odd Bishop—but the expertise and life experience of the regional manifestations of the same organisations the Members of this House are needed in delivering we have invited here. areas of policy. Some of that has fallen by default to Those responses are then analysed, debated within the European affairs committee and its whole structure. the committee and eventually in the Chamber, and For the past seven years, I have been in the sub-committee written up by highly competent and effective staff who structure of the EU Select Committee.Weheard yesterday have recourse to external research facilities. This ends from the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, that its expertise up in a standard format, having gone through a pretty will continue to be needed—although that is being standard process. We need to increase the use of open made more difficult by the Government at this point—but meetings at the beginning, at the end, and in later it will be a diminishing requirement. There will therefore follow-ups, in the form of round tables and focus be a run-down of the call on Members, staff and groups that are less well controlled and happen much resources from the EU end post Brexit, however much more outside London—possibly using social media, I may regret that. telephone conferencing and so on—involving the citizens It would have been delightful had the new structure of this country as well as a wide range of organisations conceived by this committee and proposed to the and individuals, who often have very fixed and particular House today coincided with the winding-up of the views. For that final product I am old-fashioned enough EU Committee substructure—we will need a European to need a written copy of almost everything that I can Select Committee, but we will not eventually, post hold in my hand. However, we also need to produce it Brexit, need a full substructure. Regrettably, they will in a form that is accessible to social media, is interactive not coincide, but we ought to plan the phasing of a and can act as a two-way channel of communication move across from the substructure of the EU Select and education—the educational dimension of this, as Committee to the more comprehensive structure of I mentioned, also being very important. thematic committees. That could start now, but it will To this end, at the beginning of any inquiry the need to be well managed and well planned in advance. committee undertaking it needs to establish the means In my view, there are some serious and immediate of engagement, communication and follow-through gaps in the list of thematic committees today proposed. to meet that wider remit. The report recognises that, I welcome the proposal for a public services committee— but we need to push it much further and faster, which that was a huge gap—but there are other gaps and will mean significant changes in the administration of everybody will have their own wish list, some of which this House. My key point, however, is the need for may be mentioned in the debate. Clearly, industrial comprehensive coverage by policy committees in this policy is now subsumed by economic affairs—if my House. noble friend Lord Hollick were here, he would be I have been in this House for more than 20 years. arguing strongly for a separate industrial policy committee. When I first arrived I was a radical, and wanted this There is also the issue of trade, although I think that House to change into an elected Chamber. I have not the trade committee needs to be a Joint Committee of changed my basic views on that: when the Labour the two Houses in a post-Brexit era—I shall refer to Government and the coalition Government attempted that in a subsequent debate today. it, I was strongly in support. Nevertheless, I also There is one area not included in the list which is of recognise that the strength of argument for an appointed great salience and importance to us and which is Chamber—appointed to any degree—is that it brings partly covered by the EU Select Committees but will to the legislative process an expertise that is not normally rapidly not be approached solely as an EU matter; available. By coincidence—I was going to say by mistake that is, climate change. This House and the other —it sometimes delivers extremely competent, well- House and the Government having declared a climate informed and well-qualified individuals. However, that crisis, it is somewhat bizarre that in a new list of is not their main reason for being here, whereas many thematic committees the House of Lords does not appointed Members of this House are here by reason have a committee which covers climate change. I therefore of a distinguished career behind them in all sorts of hope that the House will soon recommend the addition specialist areas and a life experience which is not of a climate change committee to the list of thematic necessarily reflected in the political process. That is the committees. strongest argument for having an appointed element In the last resort, the quality and effectiveness of within a legislature. our committees depend not only on the quality and When I first came here, I was astonished that the engagement of their members but on the quality of areas of policy in which I was most interested were not their staff. Therefore, if we are proposing a phased covered by a single committee of this House. Of move across to a new structure, it is important that it is course, that has changed a bit in the past few years. We managed effectively as well. We are blessed with an have a Constitution Committee and a Communications extremely diligent, informed, intelligent and adaptable Committee using the expertise of people in this House staff, but adaptability has its limits and it has to be and others who reflect a more general view. More managed. I am still after 20 years a little unclear as to recently, we have established an International Relations how the management processes for staff in this House Committee, which has used the skills of retired Permanent operate, but if we are to provide for the substructure Secretaries, retired heads of service and so forth—the of staffing of these committees, it is clear that we need 1791 Review of Investigative Committee[LORDS] Review of Investigative Committee 1792

[LORD WHITTY] structure, with little overall coherence in the range of a properly managed, effective and holistic approach to subjects selected. Crucially—this is my absolutely key the management of the staff and the other resources point—it has resulted in a real loss of corporate which go into them. Without a staff, none of our knowledge as these ad-hoc committees are simply present format of committees would work, and certainly disbanded. The risk, of course—has already been the more complex processes and products that I am alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty—is that envisaging and that the noble Lord, Lord McFall, and these very elegantly drafted reports, which a lot of his committee have envisaged, could not be delivered. work has gone into, simply gather dust on shelves. Therefore, the staff are key. In terms of follow-up, in the past much has depended on the individual efforts of former chairs. As a former 12.10 pm chair of the Financial Exclusion Select Committee, I Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD): My Lords, I think did as much as I could for the 18 months afterwards to I should start by declaring an interest, inasmuch as I ensure that the Government took our recommendations submitted both written and oral evidence to the committee seriously.I was genuinely quite pleased when, somewhat as this review was taking place. I very much welcome belatedly, this started to happen. I feel now that the the report and pay tribute to the excellent work of the effort that went into the production of the report by Liaison Committee, led by the noble Lord, Lord McFall, all concerned—the members, the staff and those who in conducting this really important review. We are gave evidence—was worthwhile,because the Government’s all very much in his debt. I am speaking today as and the Financial Conduct Authority’s dial on the a Back-Bencher, but know that my noble friends subject has noticeably changed. However, I felt keenly Lord Newby and Lord Stoneham also support this that I was doing it with no status or backing from report and its recommendations. There are three key the House. That is why I very strongly support the points that I want to make, and in doing so I will pick recommendations in paragraph 68 of the report for up on some of the very important points already made more structured follow-up, involving the Liaison by the noble Lords, Lord Howell and Lord Whitty. Committee and the chair of the former committee, I am a very strong supporter of broad, thematic, with support from committee staff. cross-cutting committees that can take a long-term My third point is that I am pleased that special perspective. It is very important that these committees inquiries will continue—I think there is a really important are comprehensive and cover the broad sweep of place for them—but I still feel there is more thinking government policy—without duplicating the department- to do about the relationship between special inquiries based committee structure of the House of Commons—to and the main standing committees and their sub- ensure that effective and in-depth scrutiny takes place committees. We must make best use of the body of in your Lordships’ House. Done well, House of Lords knowledge acquired through the undertaking of these Select Committees can do much to enhance the reputation inquiries, so that we are not starting from scratch each and public standing of this House—an important time a new special inquiry sets up. We need to keep issue in its own right. this point under very strong review. As the report recognises, the current structure contains I will conclude with a personal view that I know is significant gaps, particularly in areas of considerable rather controversial. While I understand the balanced concern to me such as education, health, poverty and reasoning set out in relation to the election of committee inequality and broader social policy. I am therefore chairs in paragraph 179, I continue to believe that it very pleased to see the recommendation for a new would offer greater legitimacy and clout and help to sessional committee on public services, which should ensure strong cross-party support if chairs of committees be able to fill a lot of that gap. Indeed, to some extent were elected. I have never believed, and I do not sign it mirrors quite closely the suggestion I made for a up to the argument, that the fact that we have not committee covering general home and social affairs, done it before is a good reason for not trying to do able to develop a deep understanding of demographic something different. I hope it might be possible to at trends and changing social attitudes and to undertake least test such an approach at some point. At a time horizon scanning to identify new and emerging social when the House sometimes feels ever more polarised issues so as to be ahead of the curve, as it were, on on the big issues of the day, measures to incentivise issues of direct relevance to people’s everyday lives. If cross-party working have very much to commend them. we are looking at those issues, the general public will I also feel that it might help with the critical point of think that we are doing something relevant and that gender balance, which sometimes has not been good we understand their lives. on these committees, either on the membership or the My second point is about follow-up. I feel very chairing. strongly about this, because I have been a very strong supporter of what used to be called the ad-hoc Select 12.16 pm Committees and are now called special inquiries. I have had the huge privilege of serving on five of them, The Earl of Kinnoull (Non-Afl): My Lords, that was including chairing the Financial Exclusion Select a typically thought-provoking intervention from the Committee, and indeed was the original proposer of noble Baroness, and it is a great pleasure to follow her. two of them. To my mind, they provide a really helpful I will go away and think about elected chairs afterwards. means of addressing topical issues and allow Members I shall make three brief points. to contribute their wide-ranging expertise in a raft of First, I add my congratulations to that of others on important policy areas. That said, the big downside is the work of the committee. To assimilate the vast pile that it has led to a somewhat fragmented committee of very complicated evidence, to wrestle with that 1793 Review of Investigative Committee[3 OCTOBER 2019] Review of Investigative Committee 1794 complexity and then to produce such a pleasingly groups within the House to explain and discuss it and clear report is a great achievement. It is, as the report to invite comments. I do not think I am breaching any itself admits, the first step on a journey. confidences by saying that he was with the Association That brings me to my second point and to of Conservative Peers only yesterday. Some time ago, paragraph 51, which the noble Lord, Lord Howell, he came to the Campaign for an Effective Second talked about. This concerns the future of the family of Chamber, which I chair and which my noble friend European Union committees. Once the Brexit fog has Lord Norton of Louth convenes. The noble Lord lifted, I am looking forward very much to working graciously invited my noble friend and me to give with the noble Lord, Lord McFall, and the Liaison evidence and we were glad to do so. Committee as we try to shape a new structure and This is an extremely thorough and meaty report, redeploy all our staff. They are such a precious resource, and I warmly commend it. Having said that, there are committed and highly experienced, and we must not a number of points I would like to make, one of which waste a single drop of that as we seek to reconstruct follows on the remarks by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler. the committee structure. I agree with her emphatically about the election of That brings me to something that the noble Lord, chairmen. One could go a little further and elect Lord Whitty, said. I very much associate myself with members—as they now do in another place. I have a his remarks in general: I thought it was a very good passionate reason for advancing this view. It is personal, speech indeed. He recommended a committee that but not unique. Last year, after a number of us on this would have climate change at its core. I shall certainly side of the House had voted for certain amendments be going into discussions of the new shape thinking to the first European withdrawal Bill, we were summarily that one of the current sub-committees of the European dismissed from our committees as a result. I think Union Committee, the environment sub-committee, there were a dozen of us in all, including my noble would be very well-suited to taking on that particular friends the Duke of Wellington and Lord Inglewood. burden, although that will be for discussion. For the official channels effectively to be able to subvert My third and most important point concerns chapter the work of a Select Committee in that way was quite 6, on communications and public engagement. I gave wrong. Although I say so myself—and I know I speak written and oral evidence on this. I feel that we as a for the others—we all have impeccable attendance House hide our light under a bushel. I have come from records. We took an active part in the committees a world where one was trying desperately not to do concerned. I speak as one who was a chairman of a that, and I feel we can do a lot more. As I went Select Committee in another place for five years and through the recommendations one by one, I can only who has served on other Select Committees as well. say that I found them all very sensible. Select Committees have to work without fear or The key is the increase in resources which is, of favour. They are not accountable to the Executive, but course, about people. It is important to embed people they are accountable to Parliament in the way in which within the committees. I was delighted to hear that the Executive is also accountable to Parliament. They word “embed” in the speech of the noble Lord, report to Parliament. The Government are obliged to Lord McFall. Embedding is so important because, if respond. I entirely agree with those who say that you are in charge of communicating something, it is the response and the opportunity following it for the difficult to do a good job if you do not understand it. respective House to debate the report is very important. Some of the work of our committees is highly technical It is a scandal that some fine reports are left languishing and very difficult to get to grips with. Committee for months without being discussed on the Floor members find it difficult, so we would need that embedding of the House. I deliberately call the noble Lord, to start early. This would help those in charge of Lord McFall, my noble friend—we have known each trying to communicate our work—and communicate other for many years in both Houses—but on that it well in all the various modern ways which we know issue I think he and his committee have been a little it must be communicated in—to have that good too timid. I should very much like action taken there. understanding. However, embedding brings with it something which As a preparatory step, it might be a good idea to is not mentioned in the report, and that is the absolute invite applications.The noble Lord talks about publication, need for committee members and staff to engage with which I agree with, but we should use that publication the person who has been embedded. Someone is being to invite applications from those who wish to serve on taken up a learning curve. Members and staff of that Select Committees. In applying to serve, Members committee will have to put in an investment of time should give a commitment to attend a minimum of and energy to help this person. This investment is 80% of the committee’s meetings unless ill-health, terribly important and brings a big return because, bereavement or something else prevents it. You cannot with this extra resource, there will be a good chance of be an effective member of a Select Committee unless communicating our messages far wider and much you attend it, take part in the questioning of witnesses better. and read the written evidence submitted. That issue needs a little more attention. 12.21 pm Recommendation 42 refers to the fact that we need Lord Cormack (Con): My Lords, may I begin by to look expeditiously at the whole issue of rotation expressing my warm congratulations to the noble Lord, and duration. Again, having had experience in the Lord McFall, not only for the admirable report which other place, I think that a Parliament—five years—is a he and his committee have produced but also for the reasonable term. Members should not be rotated off assiduous way in which he has gone round various after three years. It is certainly very wrong for a 1795 Review of Investigative Committee[LORDS] Review of Investigative Committee 1796

[LORD CORMACK] taken that line. I am sorry she is not here today; committee suddenly to find that it is deprived of a I know she will not mind my referring to her. I just great deal of expertise at one fell swoop. Although he think that this is a change we do not really want—at is not in the Chamber at the moment, I have discussed least, I do not. A chair is a piece of furniture, and long this with my noble friend Lord Forsyth, who was may it remain so. suddenly confronted with the loss of six members of I end with a reference to the Library, which—as for his committee.Stability and continuity are very important. so many of our debates—has produced an admirable I know that my noble friend felt strongly about that, paper for this one. I was struck by remarks made by and I absolutely agree with him. That needs further Earl Jellicoe almost half a century ago, when he said: examination. “I personally believe that in your Lordships’ House there is a I am very glad that the report refers to Joint pool of experience and expertise which is not properly used for Committees of both Houses. This has been a hobby the nation’s benefit. I also believe that the judicious employment horse of mine for the past three years,because immediately of Select Committees is one of the ways by which that pool of after the referendum—I have adverted to it many experience and expertise can be more properly exploited for the benefit of the nation”.—[Official Report, 9/12/1971; cols. 903-04.] times since—I proposed a Joint Committee of both Houses on Brexit. It is just conceivable, and I put it no True then, true now. Let us use this report as a spring- higher than that, that the traumatic and distressing board for further action on that front. days we have had over the past three years might have been reduced, cross-party accord would have developed and there would have been greater understanding between 12.33 pm the two Houses if such a committee had been formed. Lord Lipsey (Lab): Madam Chair, my Lords, it is a Rather late in the day, your Lordships’ House passed a sweet courtesy in this House to thank the mover of a resolution admirably introduced by the Leader of the Motion. I want to go beyond that in thanking the Opposition, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, noble Lord, Lord McFall, and his colleagues for the that such a committee should be set up earlier this way in which they have gone about this report. We year. That resolution was completely ignored by the have all been consulted, talked to and absorbed in the Government, so nothing came of it. work. The points we made have been taken on board Joint Committees have a very important place in a and it is a remarkable piece of work. It is not one we bicameral Parliament. I am very glad that, in that would want to carry out every year, but it is therefore context, the report refers to less formal liaison between the more important that it has been so thoroughly and the two Houses, because the more we know each other admirably done by the Liaison Committee under the and the more we understand each other and the chairmanship—sorry, chairship—of the noble Lord, complementary roles of the Houses—always underlining Lord McFall. the supremacy of the elected House—the better it is Investigatory committees are a great glory of this for Parliament in general. It is very good that the report House. In modern life—with all the fake news, phoney pays attention to that. It might not be a bad idea for a commentators and lack of respect for truth—to get a sub-committee of the Liaison Committee to develop group of people generally of high intelligence and some specific proposals on that very issue. great experience, sit them down for a few months and I am glad that there is a recommendation, let them listen to all the greatest experts throughout recommendation 9, for a public services committee. the land, and to do this without any shade of partisanship The noble Lord, Lord McFall, and others have already and invariably come up with an agreed report, makes referred to that. such committees a pearl without price. However, that On the whole issue of the position of your Lordships’ makes it the more important that these reports are House and the importance of committees in the national effective and have an impact. I therefore want to focus context, there is a reference in recommendation 27 to today on what happens after the publication of reports round tables and events that effectively involve the to ensure that. public. One of the sad things about your Lordships’ I have had a systematic look at one committee’s House and the wonderful—I use the word deliberately— work on this. When I was sitting on the Economic work of its committees is that, out there, people do Affairs Committee from 2010 to 2014, I did this and not really know about it. The great thing about House wrote an article about it for the Journal of Legislative of Lords committees is that they tend to be much less Studies. There was a pretty mixed picture on effectiveness: partisan than other groups. I believe that travelling to the committee was extremely influential in getting the parts of the country, inviting people here and using monopoly of the big four accountants looked at and modern technology—of which I am certainly not a dealt with, in a way which I do not believe would have master, as most of your Lordships know—to bring happened without that report. Other reports—I think people here through various links, not just to give of the one on fracking—put forward an absolutely evidence but to discuss, can be only for the good of unassailable position on the desirability of controlled your Lordships’ House and the quality of public debate fracking, which has of course been completely ignored in general. by the ideologues who are opposed to any such thing. I have just one tiny gripe, but only because I am Other reports were pretty much completely useless, innately conservative. I wish we would be “Chairman” but I will not name them here. and “Madam Chairman” rather than “Chair”. When There are various reasons for what works and does I say that, I know I have the great support of one of not in a report. A good choice of subject is absolutely the most admired Members of your Lordships’ House, essential—the committee looking at accountancy was the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, who has always an example of that—as are getting good press during 1797 Review of Investigative Committee[3 OCTOBER 2019] Review of Investigative Committee 1798 the work of the committee, having good communications only that this was a great report but that it had the and all those things. However, the follow-up is flawed following impact. It is important to the status of this and I am not the only one to think so. It is too House that that should be so. internally focused and not all that systematic. As regards follow-up, one thing strikes me most. First, when I say “internally focused”, I cannot There are some very good recommendations in this bear without pain to recall the number of hours I have report—further hearings, for example—and a very spent while people have talked about when a Select good paragraph summarising what witnesses thought Committee report would be debated, whether it would of follow-up; I think it is paragraph 11 of the summary. be in the Moses Room or on the Floor, and at what But the main thing that struck me when I stopped time of day. These debates do not, on the whole, do being chair of a Select Committee is that all your much for the Select Committee reports. They generally support goes, not because people are not willing to consist of members of the committee saying how well support you but because it is not their job.The committee the chairman did, how well they personally performed ceases to exist, so there are no clerks to support you and how good the result was. That really contributes and press and communications tend to go off the boil. nothing to propagating its importance. I have never You just do not have the basic support, logistic and seen a line in any newspaper—or even a blog—about otherwise, that you would need to do the kind of jobs those debates. It is like the impact of the cushion on a that I have referred to. It seems a terrible waste to put charging tank. You have to get into the game much a huge amount of resource into getting a top-class more than that. report and then very little into making it stick. I hope the Liaison Committee might look at that further. Secondly, there really is no systematic way of Indeed, if the chairman is the one mostly propagating propagating reports. I did a number of government the report, they will need some help with briefing, reports before I came into this House. One of the rules such as on what the press is saying about the report in is that you need to put in as much work after reporting general, enabling him or her to reply effectively to any as you did beforehand. I hate to bring this up, but I criticisms. always do: I signed a minority report on the Royal The potential of, and the need for, our reports to do Commission on Long-Term Care of the Elderly. I am good has never been greater. We live in a world of fake not delighted by this, but the majority report got no news: a swamp of ill-informed opinion where facts are attention because no attention was given to getting it manipulated and analysis distorted by crude partisanship, any publicity.Wehad poor communications and nobody of which the last few weeks have, I fear, given us only went around trying to advocate its results. It sank too many examples. These reports are beacons of without a trace. That is true of some of our reports. open analysis, clear guidance and reasoned conclusions, Various things need to be done. When following up which set an example. But it is not enough to be right: in the press, we send out the report—of course we we also have a duty to put forward the arguments do—and, if we are lucky, it gets reported. I would do which make us right. The veneer of truth and reason this: when a subject comes up in the news in the in our polity has worn frighteningly thin. Our reports normal way and a reasonably up-to-date House of are one way in which we can contribute to burnishing Lords committee report on it exists, that should be that veneer and so to a better balance in the conduct sent out again to journalists writing on the new subject. of our nation’s affairs. For instance, HS2 is a very popular subject: send out the report when news on it comes out. Many of our 12.43 pm reports would bear that. Every time that there is a Lord Lang of Monkton (Con): My Lords, enjoying fracking demonstration, we could send out the report as I do the privilege of being a member of the Liaison on fracking by the Economic Affairs Committee. It is Committee, I would like to say how encouraging it has a fact that the modern press and media are interested been to me—and I am sure to other members who only in the subject of the day, so you have to bring may be listening—to hear not only that the report so your report to bear on the subject of the day. ably moved by the noble Lord, Lord McFall of Alcluith, This should also be a lobbying operation. We should has been welcomed but that welcoming speeches have not just wait quietly for Ministers to come up with been accompanied by positive and creative contributions their response: the chair should see the Minister, talk to the ongoing debate. to the civil servants and put the case. I did this with the This is very much a work in progress; there is never opinion polling report that I had the great honour to an endgame when it comes to reports of this kind. I so chair. It is not just Ministers who need to be lobbied. agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, who stressed In the case of the report on opinion polling, most of the importance of Select Committees. I believe they the recommendations were not for government; they are one of the best features of this House. They are were for the British Polling Council, the body concerned very special in respect of knowledge, dedication, the with the polling industry. I have been in close touch commitment of noble Lords, the quality of the evidence with Sir John Curtice, president of the BPC, about taken and the conclusions reached in a wholly bipartisan how it is getting on; we have a useful dialogue. There way. This is unrivalled elsewhere within the Palace of has to be communication, and not just about the Westminster and yet, to too great an extent these modern stuff. Committees should consider offering to committees are often unrecognised. speak to thinktanks or academic institutions about It was a privilege to serve on the Liaison Committee. their reports. Of course, there is all the online stuff as When I was appointed to it, I was told that it did not well. The impact of this work needs to be monitored meet very often, but that it did important things. I all the time, so you can say at the end of the day not found that it meets very often indeed; I hope the 1799 Review of Investigative Committee[LORDS] Review of Investigative Committee 1800

[LORD LANG OF MONKTON] achieve this closer relationship some time ago. We “important” definition can still be applied. Again, I published one report on devolution and another on echo the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, in saying that it has intergovernmental relations. At a time when relations been a privilege to serve under the chairmanship of were strained—and they have not got much better the noble Lord, Lord McFall of Alcluith. All chairmen since—the Government took around a year to respond work hard, harder than the rest of the committee. In to one of the reports, and two years to the other. this case, the efforts of the noble Lord were immense. Sadly, the responses were, in general, bland and He carried out huge numbers of interviews with colleagues complacent, and little change is evident. and outside bodies. The report could not have reached I experienced another example of the Government’s the stage that it eventually did without his participation. attitude to Select Committee reporting when listening Just as the last such report was called the Jellicoe to a debate on the fine report from the Economic report, I hope that this one will be named the McFall Affairs Committee, chaired so effectively by my noble report. I hope it will help to make the good even friend Lord Forsyth of Drumlean. The subject was better, and better known. making tax digital for VAT and the issue of loan The change of committees to a thematic nature— charges, and the date was 29 April. In his opening evolutionary and tentative but aiming for better flexibility speech—col. 786 in Hansard—my noble friend had to and transparency—is at the core of the report. That report that he had asked for a Treasury Minister, the gradualist approach, based on extensive consultation, Financial Secretary, to attend and give evidence on is surely right. It provides a base for incremental an issue that was sensitive and political rather than development. The procedures, duties and powers of technical, but had received two declinatures. Two further any part of our Parliament are developed and honed declinatures on other matters followed. That is not a over decades, even centuries. It would be the height of satisfactory approach to a Select Committee’s serious folly for ill-considered change from any quarter in our work. Parliament to be enforced without extensive reflection However, on this occasion there was a happier and prior consultation. Happily, I believe this report ending because in winding up the debate—col. 914—my avoids that folly entirely. noble friend was able to thank my noble friend The thematic change is not just one of name; it Lord Young of Cookham, who was not a Treasury broadens the choice of subject for committees. It Minister but was standing in to deal with that particular avoids the chance of duplicating the work of the debate, for the sympathetic and serious reply he had Commons,whichisessentiallydepartmental.Itencourages given, including an undertaking to take matters further the potential for complementarity between the two with the Chancellor and Treasury Ministers. In due Houses. Alongside it, the arrangements proposed for course, relations have improved dramatically with the sub-committees should be considered where, by contrast, Treasury, and I understand that the present Financial shorter,more specific or topical subjects can be addressed, Secretary works closely with the committee and is possibly as an adjunct to the subject of the main responsive to its requests. We need very much more of committee work—or something quite different. They that kind of response across government to the range could identify gaps in committees or do follow-up of high-quality reports that so many of our committees reports on what the main committee is doing. I expect produce. most committees would like to have a sub-committee, As the noble Lord, Lord McFall, said, our report perhaps full-time. While I can see advantages there, before the House today recognises the present weaknesses cost considerations have to be taken into account, of the House’s communication efforts, as others have not to mention manpower issues. Many noble Lords touched on. It makes a number of suggestions for are already heavily committed to other committee improvements, and I very much hope that these will be duties. followed up. A lack of resources is a factor. If committees Also, a permanent sub-committee could undermine could secure the assistance of a press officer, for the main committee or duplicate its work. It could lose example, not just at publication time but throughout the flexibility and greater spontaneity that are also the inquiry in question, I believe that the understanding worthy objectives of the new proposals. The new and response from the media and the outside world public services thematic committee that the report would be very much better. I mention in passing the proposes would almost certainly want a sub-committee. Artificial Intelligence Committee, chaired by the noble One understands the force of the argument it might Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, which produced a report make, because of the breadth of subject matter that it that had a dramatic impact on public understanding would have to embrace, as it would include education, of Parliament’s approach to artificial intelligence. It health and so on. Even there, a permanent sub-committee was a fine example of what can be done, particularly would not be a good idea. with the use of technology—another theme that we An area the report touches on, which has long touch on in the report and which I hope will feature concerned me, is the variable and often unsatisfactory extensively in further future developments. nature of government handling of and responding to There are a host of other suggestions, and in the committee reports, and the delay in a response appearing. time available one cannot talk about all of them. The On this, at any rate, I agree with my noble friend important thing is that the report is extensive and Lord Cormack. Devolution is an area in which no comprehensive and is full of practical and forward-looking substantive proposals are made, but the need for better proposals. I hope it will form a template for the future interaction and co-operation is important, perhaps growth of the Select Committee reports of this House never more so than now. Your Lordships’ Constitution and wider recognition of their value to the whole Committee, which I chaired at the time, sought to nation. 1801 Review of Investigative Committee[3 OCTOBER 2019] Review of Investigative Committee 1802

12.52 pm This goes to the very kernel of what the House of Lords is about. If you want to keep a state secret, give Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab): My Lords,I am speaking a speech in the House of Lords. It is a massive issue in the gap not by choice. I understand that there has for us. When I chaired the Science and Technology been a procedural change. Whereas previously these Select Committee more than 20 years ago, we had an debates were not listed, on this occasion they are. That inquiry into cannabis. As with the antibiotic resistance is why I did not apply to speak in the debate. So I will report, it is only now, 20 years later, that we start to see keep my remarks very short. its value, because the follow-up has been so poor. I Paragraph 65 of the report says: remember very clearly that when we came to present “We recommend that, in future, the member of the House our cannabis report, our clerk, Mr Andrew Makower, who has proposed a shortlisted special inquiry topic be invited to came in and said, “My Lords, we are going to have a appear before the Liaison Committee to present their case in press conference tomorrow morning. It would be good person”. if as many of your Lordships as possible might come. I suggest that it be “a Member of the House who has If you do, being that this is cannabis, your Lordships proposed”. Very often those who propose are in fact might want to think of your answer to one particular supported by others, among whom there may be late question”. There was a long silence in the room and signatories, and they may well include people who the Nobel prize-winner for chemistry leant across to would be more qualified to make a statement to the me and said, “Robert, what’s cannabis like? I’ve never Liaison Committee. I hope the Senior Deputy Speaker had it”. The fact that it was the one report that had will consider that. some kind of press coverage is really not good enough Secondly, I support the recommendation in for this House. paragraph 116: I regret to say that it is no good just having websites. “We recommend that the Procedure Committee consider the We have to have professionally made websites. The order of speakers in debates on committee reports, in particular, consideration of whether the relevant Minister should speak at quality of IT support is still lacking in this place. It is the beginning of a committee report debate”. not entirely the fault of the people here, because of the That is an extremely important recommendation that nature of this Chamber, but we need to think very I understand would have to be considered by the clearly about public engagement. It is quite correctly Procedure Committee. It would give Members the mentioned very strongly in this report. opportunity to challenge the Government’s response Sadly,there is very little mention of the Parliamentary to the position taken by members of the committee. Office of Science and Technology—POST—the Joint That is a vital recommendation. Committee which goes between the Commons and Thirdly, paragraph 156 says: me. One thing that I must say to your Lordships, “Wewelcome the suggestion from House of Commons colleagues which people may not know, is that the Lords Members that the two Liaison Committees should meet together from time of the POST board are assiduous attenders. Sometimes to time, and hope that this can be piloted on an informal basis in the MPs have other things to do, but the expertise that the next Parliamentary session”. provides totally independent, absolutely carefully judged This would be to avoid any crossover in inquiries. In comment, is simply part of our public engagement. the case of the inquiry in which I am involved, on Those reports go out to the scientific community. We electoral registration, work has been done in the Commons would like more help for them to go out on a wider in this area, and the House might well have taken a basis, but, of course, the finances are very short. I different decision in recommending that inquiry if it certainly hope that we will consider that POST is had known of the work being done in the Commons doing a very important job. on that matter. I will not take up four minutes, but I want to Finally, I will raise an issue that I have raised on mention the rotation rule, which has been mentioned previous occasions in the Chamber. I object very by so many people. The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, strongly to Whips being on the Liaison Committee. makes an important point. I remember, some time ago Whips work the committee. That happened over an when we were discussing the constitution, the noble application that I made on a national identity card and learned Lord, Lord Judge, said that when we were inquiry, and I understand that it has happened on sitting on the committee, he could not tell which party other inquiries. The Liaison Committee should comprise people were from. When I chaired the committee only people who are on the Back Benches of this 20 years ago, not only did I not know which party they House. That is the case in the Commons, I understand, were from—it was completely irrelevant for science when it considers these matters, and it should equally and technology—I did not even know whether they apply in the Lords. I appeal to the House to change were hereditary or life Peers, because the people on the this system. Take the Whips off the Liaison Committee committee were there because of the expertise they and let the ordinary Members of the House of Lords could provide. decide what inquiries are to take place. One of the problems with the rotation rule and the question about being fair to all Members who want to be on committees is that there is a real issue here. The 12.55 pm Science and Technology Committee, for example, is Lord Winston (Lab): My Lords, I, too, regret speaking constantly starved of scientists. That is something that in the gap. I feel that this is one of the most important we need to think about carefully. The noble Lord, reports that we have had in front of us for a long time, Lord Cormack, has already addressed the length of so I thank the noble Lord, Lord McFall, very much. the rotation rule. However, we need to think very 1803 Review of Investigative Committee[LORDS] Services, Procedure and Selection 1804

[LORD WINSTON] We have a surfeit of experience, skills and carefully about how people are chosen. While I have professionalism here. There is an absolute need to no comment on or criticism of the current committee, reach out. In giving evidence, the noble Lord, Lord we need to make sure that when we appoint these Hennessy—Professor Hennessy—said that we should committees, we make certain we get the best expertise have a national conversation with people, given the for the particular committee concerned and people are experience and skills that are here. I believe that. not appointed just because they have been a good The commandments, if you like, of this report are Member on the Back Benches. very clear. It outlines the key purposes and principles. The key purposes of this report are scrutiny of 12.59 pm government, influencing policy, informing debate in The Senior Deputy Speaker: My Lords, I thank the House and beyond, engaging the public in our every Member for the generous welcome the report work, and the detailed investigation for which we are has had. Rather than refer to individual Members, I renowned. The key principles are cross-cutting committees, will sum up the themes very briefly. We are dealing comprehensive flexibility, so that we have the freedom with an entirely new global environment and the to innovate, being open and outward-looking, and committee was very aware of that throughout. The having effective committees—in other words, value for pace of societal and technological change is enormous money.Everycommitteeinquirynotionallycosts£225,000, and we have to position ourselves for that. so we need to ensure we get value for money. That aspect is really important. Embedded in the report is the concept of constant change, so there will be no need for further reviews. To echo the noble Lord, Lord Winston, this is the We can adapt to changing circumstances as we go kernel of what the House of Lords is about. Yes, this is along. Weneed a more comprehensive thematic structure, the first step on the journey, but our aim is to enhance but we received 56 submissions for individual committees, the role of the House in society, and I look forward to so how do we deal with that? The opportunity that a working with committees and Members as we take thematic structure offers is that it can adapt. The this forward. chairs’ forum was mentioned. That is an extremely important initiative, which will bring committee chairs Motion agreed. together. They will work together and listen to the House and to Members. For example, it might consider Services, Procedure and Selection what this House should be looking at on climate change at this time. I think issues such as that should Committees be on the agenda of the chairs’ forum and I look Membership Motion forward to working with Members on it. Communications is a huge issue for the committee 1.04 pm and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for his work Moved by The Senior Deputy Speaker on the working party, along with the noble Lords, Lord Gilbert and Lord Sharkey. We accepted those That Lord Ashton of Hyde be appointed to the recommendations and are going even further outwith following Select Committees in place of Lord Taylor the committee in terms of communications, so that of Holbeach: Services, Procedure, Selection. work has been taken forward. Noble Lords should keep in mind that we were The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) working within a static financial envelope. I point out (Con): My Lords, given that one of these Motions that we are a poor neighbour when compared with the relates to the new Convenor of the Cross Benches, I House of Commons. If I remember correctly, our wanted to say a few words about the outgoing Convenor, budget for committee staff is about £4 million, but in the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead. the House of Commons it is £16 million. I think we do All noble Lords will know that the noble and very well with the work we are doing. Your Lordships learned Lord had a long and distinguished career as a can take it from me that the issue of resources is one lawyer, playing an instrumental role in the transfer of that we shall be looking at in the future. judicial authority from this House to the newly created The issue of staff has been mentioned. That was Supreme Court. Over his four years as Convenor, the hugely important. I pay tribute to Philippa Tudor and whole House has benefited from the measured and her colleagues,who have taken us through these 18 months. constructive way in which he has stood up for the It was a call beyond normal duty, but they responded interests of the Cross Benches and approached the hugely on that. When we are taking issues forward, we work we have done together, not least via the work of have to keep the staff in mind. our domestic committees. He has been a committed House of Lords and House of Commons engagement and constructive part of the usual channels, and I is very important. I invited Frank Field, and Sarah thank him sincerely for that. I know that these thanks Wollaston, the chair of the House of Commons Liaison are echoed by my noble friend the Chief Whip and his Committee, to give evidence.In the report, we recommend predecessor, my noble friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach. that the Liaison Committees of the Commons and the Noble Lords may not be aware that the noble and Lords meet together a couple of times a year, say. We learned Lord is a keen diarist, and I am sure we will all have scrutiny of Parliament, but we do not have House look forward to the volume on his years as Convenor. of Lords or House of Commons scrutiny on their I particularly thank him for his involvement in the own. That is the aim on that issue. cross-House, cross-party working group which helped 1805 Services, Procedure and Selection[3 OCTOBER 2019] Deputy Chairmen of Committees 1806 develop the new independent complaints and grievance The noble and learned Lord and I have common scheme. His counsel and advice were certainly invaluable threads running in our hobbies. He loves walking in to us all. the Scottish countryside and is an avid bird-watcher, On behalf of the whole House, I would like to wish and so am I. I invite him to join me and other the noble and learned Lord well and hope that he will twitchers in my village and join me on the South be able to spend more time enjoying his hobby of Downs Way, which is probably the finest ramble in bird-watching, without having to be in the range of a Sussex. computer or hunting for what I understand is an I also welcome the noble and learned Lord, Lord elusive phone signal in the local Tesco in Craighead. Judge, to his new role. I have known him since my Finally, I look forward to working with his successor, involvement in the committee of the Judicial Studies the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge. I am sure we Board. He follows, like his predecessors, with a will have an equally constructive and positive relationship. distinguished career in this appointment and we wish him well. Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab): My Lords, I concur with the comments of the noble Baroness the Leader of the House. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge (CB): My Lords, may I say something Lord Hope, has been Convenor since 2015 and he has which is not about me? Apart from the things that served this House, as well as his group, with distinction noble Lords have said about me—and thank you during that time. These have been interesting and at all for being so kind—I agree with everything that times very demanding times for your Lordships’ House. has been said about my noble and learned friend Lord Hope. The custom is, certainly in my experience, In so many debates, the noble and learned Lord’s that where you agree with everything that has been forensic and very wise legal mind has been of enormous said, you say so and sit down. I am not going to. I will benefit in improving legislation. I hope he will enjoy, hold you up a little longer, because I enthusiastically and we will welcome, further such contributions, just support what each of you has had to say in the very from a different seat in your Lordships’ House. His generous tributes to the Convenor who—it is lovely to gentle manner has sometimes hidden his understated see so many Cross-Benchers here—has led us. Sorry, I humour, often found in the most unlikely of debates. have made a mistake; Convenors do not lead. He has If noble Lords missed it, I urge them to read his guided us—I am not sure my colleagues would even contribution to the debate on the Non-Domestic Rating agree with that. At any rate, to be neutral, he has been (Public Lavatories) Bill. I will not repeat his words, as I there: he has been ever available, ever helpful and, a could never do justice to his story, but it will bring on lovely characteristic, self-effacing as Convenor of the quite a chuckle. Cross Benches. He is having a few days away. If he had The Convenor speaks for an independent-minded been here today, he would have been profoundly group of disparate, different and at times contradictory embarrassed at what you have all had to say about views—of course, that is not something that the noble him, so it is wonderful that he is not here. But he will Baroness and I would at all recognise. I am intrigued, be here next week and thereafter, and I for one will be although others may be fearful, that the noble and rushing away from the very important corridor which learned Lord lists in his hobbies that he is writing Lord you all inhabit, and I do now, to find him in his room Hope’s Diaries. The last month alone could create a to seek his advice and guidance in order that I can do a whole volume and I just ask that he be gentle with us. better job as the Convenor. He took over as Convenor at the same time as I became leader of my group. I have greatly appreciated our conversations, his integrity and his sound advice. The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith): I give a warm welcome to the noble and learned My Lords, I thank noble Lords for the tributes to the Lord, Lord Judge. He also combines that sharp, forensic outgoing Convenor. I would like to add my personal legal brain with a warm wit, and we look forward to thanks to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, working with him. with whom I have worked very closely since I have taken up this job. I hugely welcome the profound, Lord Dholakia (LD): My Lords, my noble friend ready and wise advice he has given to me—all pro Lord Newby, the leader of the Liberal Democrats, is bono—and which I am sure the noble and learned in Australia. In his absence, I am delighted to associate Lord, Lord Judge, will continue in the same fashion. my party with the tributes paid to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead. Motion agreed. As the Convenor of the Cross-Bench Peers, the noble and learned Lord has provided distinguished service to the work of your Lordships’ House. He Deputy Chairmen of Committees brought his independent judgment to the meetings of Membership Motion the usual channels. His contributions, and those of his colleagues on the Cross Benches, have continued to Moved by The Senior Deputy Speaker enhance the reputation of your Lordships’ House, for which we thank him. It is difficult to believe that he That Lord Ashton of Hyde be appointed to the was often self-conscious and had a fear of public panel of members to act as Deputy Chairmen of speaking. Despite this, he went on to accomplish Committees in place of Lord Taylor of Holbeach. major achievements in the legal and political sphere. As his title indicates, he is a real source of hope. Motion agreed. 1807 HoL Commission, Services, Liaison Etc.[LORDS] Offender Management and Treatment 1808

House of Lords Commission, Services, Offender Management and Treatment Liaison, Procedure and Selection Motion to Take Note Committees 1.12 pm Membership Motion Moved by Lord Ramsbotham Moved by The Senior Deputy Speaker That this House takes note of the case for reforming That Lord Judge be appointed to the following the management and treatment of offenders in Select Committees in place of Lord Hope of prison and the community. Craighead: House of Lords Commission, Services, Liaison, Procedure, Selection. Lord Ramsbotham (CB): My Lords, one has only to read recent reports from the quality assurers of the Motion agreed. management and treatment of offenders in prison and the community—the chief inspectors of prisons and Communications Committee probation—to realise that all is not well with how they Membership Motion are currently being conducted. Quite apart from the number of prisons that are in special measures, the Moved by The Senior Deputy Speaker appalling reoffending rate, the wilful cuts to staff numbers, estimated to amount to 80,000 years of That Baroness Scott of Bybrook and Baroness operational experience, the amount of violence against Meyer be appointed in place of Baroness Chisholm staff, the prevalence of drugs, the amount of self-harm of Owlpen and Lord Bethell. and suicide, the number of prisoners with untreated mental health problems, and the number who spend Motion agreed. all day locked up in their cell because there is no purposeful activity to occupy them should all sound alarm bells to any Government who take seriously Social and Economic Impact of the their responsibilities for protecting the public. Gambling Industry Committee As far as the management and treatment of offenders Membership Motion in the community are concerned, those involved in Moved by The Senior Deputy Speaker sentencing have lost confidence in how community sentences, the only alternative to custody, are being That Lord Mancroft be appointed in place of delivered. What is extremely concerning is that this Baroness Meyer. situation has got worse, rather than better, over recent years. Motion agreed. Any regret that I may have had about tabling this Motion was eliminated by the Prime Minister’s announcement last month that he proposed to invest Science and Technology Committee £2.5 billion to provide another 10,000 prison places. Membership Motion The dictionary definition of a strategy is the projection Moved by The Senior Deputy Speaker and direction of a campaign. The task of the prison and probation services, to protect the public by their That Baroness Rock be appointed in place of management of offenders, is akin to any other campaign Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist. in that it needs a strategy. The absence of any to which the Prime Minister’s investment can be related reminded Motion agreed. me of the berating I once received from a senior Home Office official, who said, “I wish you would stop talking about strategy. We don’t need a strategy; all we Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments need is strategic direction”. When I asked her what she Membership Motion meant, she replied, “Top down, of course”. Moved by The Senior Deputy Speaker In the 24 years I have been involved with the criminal justice system, there have been 11 Secretaries That Baroness Newlove be appointed in place of of State and 13 Ministers responsible for prisons Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist. and probation. All have given top-down direction not related to any strategy, with 278 policy undertakings Motion agreed. on prisons alone since 2016. 1 suspect that Jack Straw would claim that his introduction of the National Offender Management Service—and Kenneth Clarke Liaison Committee and Chris Grayling would claim that their rehabilitation Membership Motion revolutions—had strategic intent. But the fact that Moved by The Senior Deputy Speaker they have all been discontinued shows how fragile they were as meaningful, long-term strategies. Without an That Earl Howe be appointed in place of Baroness overall strategy that has been costed so that Ministers Evans of Bowes Park. can know the size and implications of any shortfall, it is impossible to give policy direction to operational Motion agreed. staff. 1809 Offender Management and Treatment[3 OCTOBER 2019] Offender Management and Treatment 1810

The only time in recent years when there has been with the then ethos of the Probation Service, “Advise, an attempt at a strategy, certainly as far as prisons are Assist, Befriend”, and the Prison Service’s statement concerned, was when the then Home Secretary Kenneth of purpose: Baker, now the noble Lord, Lord Baker of Dorking, “It is our duty to keep securely all those committed by the published a White Paper on prisons, Custody, Care courts, to treat them with humanity, and help them to live useful and Justice, in September 1991. This set out 12 ways and law-abiding lives in prison and on release”, ahead for the Prison Service, none of which has been this could be turned into a joint and positive aim for implemented. White Papers used to be carefully researched both services: “It is our duty to help all those committed statements of government policy. In this case the by the courts to live useful and law-abiding lives, with Home Office was able to draw on the masterly report the qualifications that they must be treated with humanity of my noble and learned friend Lord Woolf on the and not allowed to escape from prison or breach the causes of the worst riots in prison history, which had terms of their supervision order in the community”. taken place the year before. There are three logical steps to achieving that, in Comparing its content with the only other White both prisons and probation. First, a detailed assessment Paper on prisons, the rushed Prison Safety and Reform, must be made of why a person has not been living a published in November 2016, which contained intent useful and law-abiding life thus far, including education but no direction, is to compare chalk with cheese. As I and work skills,healthcare needs,criminological behaviour, have called on every Secretary of State in my time to and risk to staff, other offenders and the general study and update what was laid down, perhaps I may public. By axing the prisons part of the Prisons and remind noble Lords of the Baker “ways ahead”. These Courts Bill, which had started its legislative progress were: to improve necessary security measures; to improve through the other place before the last election, Theresa co-operation with other services and institutions by May removed a priceless opportunity to have certain working closely with the probation service and by assessments made statutory. Viable sentence plans for membership of a national forum and area committees; every individual can be made only following full to increase delegation of responsibility and accountability assessments. to all levels, with clear leadership and a published The second step is the implementation of sentence annual statement of objectives; and to improve the plans, prioritised according to the severity of the quality of jobs for staff; to recognise the status and symptom and the length of sentence. The third, as far particular requirements of unconvicted prisoners; to as prisoners are concerned, is their transition into the provide active and relevant programmes for all prisoners; community,and, as far as those on community sentences to provide a code of standards for conditions and are concerned, ensuring that they know where they activities in prisons, which would be used to set can come back to for any advice or help. That could improvement targets in annual contracts made between form the basis of a strategy. prison governors and their area managers; to improve relationships with prisoners, including a statement of Whenever an issue of public policy required thorough facilities for each prisoner— sentence plans, consultations, examination and the Government were not committed reasons for decisions—and access to an independent to a definite policy, the task used to be entrusted to an appeal body for grievances and disciplinary decisions; invited group of persons from outside the relevant to provide access to sanitation at all times for all departments, such as a royal commission. The last prisoners; to end overcrowding; and to divide the larger Royal Commission on Criminal Justice reported in wings of prisons into smaller, more manageable units, July 1993, since when all structural examinations have wherever possible; and, finally, to develop community been conducted in-house,with all the known imperfections prisons, which would involve the gradual realignment of that process. Frankly, with such a long record of of the prison estate into geographically coherent groups, failure, and because existing practices need to be serving most prisoners within that area. questioned, I do not think that Ministry of Justice officials are the right people to carry out this task. Since Kenneth Baker’s day, other than NOMS and There cannot be a single aspect of imprisonment or the rehabilitation revolutions, there has been no attempt probation that has not been the subject of a report by at an overall strategy. The main point at issue has been a quality assurer or other expert, whose thousands of whether the emphasis should be on punishment, as recommendations have been studiously ignored by the populists advocate, or rehabilitation, as public protectors Ministry of Justice. I hope that an outside inquiry advocate. In wishing that this issue could be resolved would examine these, and take an objective view of once and for all, I also wish that the management and two managerial changes that I have long advocated. treatment of offenders were removed from party politics, along with the temptation for anyone to be seen as The first is the establishment of a ministerially tougher than another. Lawbreakers will have to be chaired executive committee responsible for the overall dealt with whichever party is in power, and it is the management and treatment of offenders, in prisons responsibility of all Governments to ensure that that and the community, whose four executive members any resulting sentences, in prison or the community, would be the directors-general of the prison and probation are properly resourced. services, and the chairmen of the Youth Justice Board and a women’sjustice board that I would form. Secondly, I have often thought that the aim that Tony Blair every business, hospital or school should have named gave the criminal justice system when he became people responsible and accountable for particular activities. Prime Minister in 1997—to protect the public by Ever since suspending my inspection of Holloway and preventing crime—should have been, “To protect the finding that there was no director of women’s prisons, public by preventing re-crime or reoffending”. In line I have agitated for directors to be appointed for every 1811 Offender Management and Treatment[LORDS] Offender Management and Treatment 1812

[LORD RAMSBOTHAM] I then became chairman of the court aged 32, at the type of prison and some types of prisoner, responsible time of the Brixton riots. That was a torrid, difficult for ensuring consistency,turning good practice somewhere and emotional time. What I felt time and again was into common practice everywhere and telling governors that the young people in court were the people who what to do, leaving how they do it up to them. Lack of had no stakeholders. They had no serious probation direction is the principal cause of the performance of or supervision programme. They ended up in court individual prisons yo-yoing so much over the years. because there was nowhere else for them to go. Ministers would find life much easier if they could I very much echo the noble Lord’s words about the send for the person responsible and accountable and lack of corporate memory in Whitehall. Every Minister ask them why a certain thing was or was not happening. has a new idea. Civil servants keep changing. Having a Turning to the community, before he resigned as better corporate memory—I am allocating the noble Justice Secretary, David Gauke took steps to undo a Lord the role of being the corporate memory after his disastrous introduction of Chris Grayling’s by reuniting recital of all my noble friend Lord Baker’spolicies—would the probation service, one part of which had been be an excellent thing. We need a strategy, but above all privatised. In forcing through his Transforming we need an implementation plan that we hold to. I Rehabilitation programme, Grayling wilfully ignored warmly endorse the noble Lord’s suggestion that official advice that there was a more than 80% risk responsibilities need to have named people who hold that affordability objectives could not be demonstrated the policy dear. or met and that an unacceptable drop in operational There were enormous problems with transforming performance would lead to delivery failures. The Justice rehabilitation. The noble Lord has outlined how the and Public Accounts Committees in the other place effectively disastrous consequences of that policy came have both published devastatingly critical reports on to light, with the part-privatisation of probation and transforming rehabilitation, as have the National Audit 21 CRCs working alongside the probation service. Let Office and the former Chief Inspector of Probation, us be clear: the probation service at that time needed Dame Glenys Stacey, who climaxed her criticism with reform and a complete shake-up. It had lost its way. It a far-sighted final report in which she pointed out in was old-style, bureaucratic and tired and had lost great detail what needed reform and how to do it. energy and ambition. Although it can be given the same aim as prisons, I applaud my right honourable friend in the other probation needs a separate, carefully considered place, David Gauke, for having the courage to reverse management structure,incorporating much more localism. the policy. It is very easy in government to feel you Above all, because each part of the country is so have to build on your predecessor’s policies and that different, commissioning of probation services must otherwise you are being disloyal. He was considered be localised. Of course probation must work closely and brave and took the view that the evidence was that with prisons because of its role in the release and the policy simply was not working. The noble Lord rehabilitation of prisoners, but, because the majority referred to the National Audit Office.Sir Amyas Morse—a of the offenders it is responsible for supervising have public servant in whose debt we should all be because been given community sentences, it must work much of his effect on the reform of many public services—said more closely with courts, the police and local authorities. in his report that: Having been so severely damaged, probation needs “The Ministry set itself up to fail in how it approached tender, loving and all-party care if it is to be made fit probation reforms. Its rushed roll-out created significant risks to play its vital role in the protection of the public. that it was unable to manage. These have had far reaching I conclude by asking the Minister to recommend to consequences. Not only have these failings been extremely costly the Secretary of State for Justice that an outside for taxpayers, but we have seen the number of people on short sentences recalled to prison skyrocket. It is welcome that the inquiry,akin to a royal commission, should be appointed Ministry’s proposals address some of the issues that have caused as quickly as possible to recommend whether punishment problems, but risks remain. It needs to pause and think carefully or rehabilitation, which he told his party conference about its next steps so that it can get things right this time and were not opposites, should be the basis of a binding improve the quality of probation services”. strategy for the reform of the management and treatment I salute that view and believe that our debate is part of of offenders in prison and the community. I beg to that review of what has gone wrong in the past and move. how we can dedicate ourselves to improving services for the future. 1.27 pm I am delighted that the Government and Prime Baroness Bottomley of Nettlestone (Con): Let me be Minister were able to invest so generously in our the first most warmly to congratulate the noble Lord, criminal justice system with 20,000 police officers and Lord Ramsbotham, on securing this debate and once additional resources for the Prison Service. But we are again drawing attention to the need for enlightened never going to have an effective probation service and critical reforms across our criminal justice system. without the proper resources and respect. The parallel His tenacity in bringing these matters back over and I would draw is the lessons from children’s services again as a former Chief Inspector of Prisons and his and mental health services. Enoch Powell derided the extensive writing and speaking have made an enormous great institutions and asylums. It was a case of out of impact. Perhaps he will be a modern-day Elizabeth sight, out of mind—institutionalisation meant that Fry or John Howard. psychiatric patients were in fact damaged by that Personally, I agree with many of the noble Lord’s process. We are familiar with that in the prison world, comments. My own credentials go back only 44 years, in spite of all the reforms and efforts that have been to when I became a juvenile magistrate in Brixton. made. 1813 Offender Management and Treatment[3 OCTOBER 2019] Offender Management and Treatment 1814

You could never have effective care in the community “Violence leads to a restrictive regime and security measures until you had what was called “assertive outreach”. which in turn frustrate those being held there”. The difference between being in the community and He avers that there are regimes where prisoners, being in an institution, with one telephone call every “are locked up for excessive amounts of time, where they do not two weeks, is too great. Community programmes mean get enough exercise, education or training, and where there do not effective, tenacious and assertive programmes; that is appear to be any credible plans to break the cycle of violence”. the lesson we have learnt from psychiatric patients and Will the Government therefore review the recruitment from children in children’s homes. The alternative to and retention problems in staffing by enhancing pay being in a children’s home—as dangerous as that often and reducing the retirement age in what is, after, all, a was, as we now well know—was not just to have a potentially stressful service? social worker popping in once a month but to have a There is a particular concern about women in the programme that involved health visitors, nursery schools, custodial system, the vast majority of whom are there neighbours and so on. Our priority and our message for non-violent offences. The number of homeless must be to take this opportunity and to take all we women incarcerated has doubled in the last four years, have learnt and the comments of enough wise people—we while BAME women are overrepresented. Will the do not need any more—and say that we need to make Government take steps, in conjunction with local probation work. authorities, to address the homelessness issue with We also need more community champions. I want which so many of these women have to contend? Will to praise the police and crime commissioners, mayors they support and work more closely with women’s and high sheriffs, who have become advocates in centres, which have made a significant contribution to communities up and down the country for enlightened supporting vulnerable women and have the potential prison reform and responsible community services to make a substantial impact in supporting women and, above all, drawing in the voluntary sector. All of offenders? Will they also address the issue of women us have referred on previous occasions to magnificent being consigned to prisons far from their children? initiatives making a real impact. In my own former Above all, will they look again at the number of area, the Watts Gallery—founded by GF Watts, a custodial sentences for women and seek to promote prison reformer—now provides work in HMP Bronzefield, alternatives, bearing in mind the sad fact that 100 women HMP Send and Feltham youth institution. Pimlico prisoners have died in prison since 2007? Opera, established by Wasfi Kani, has done similar for Since 2010, the Ministry of Justice has seen its many years. The other day, the wonderful High Sheriff budget cut by 40%. The Prime Minister appears to of Oxfordshire was talking about Fine Cell Work, of want to invest in the Prison Service. Unfortunately, it which the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, is a patron, would appear that the investment will take the form of and the wonderful charity Aspire—I will say no more more prisons and 10,000 more prisoners, rather than about that, because I hope my noble kinsman, the more qualified staff. noble Lord, Lord Jay, will comment on this vital area in great detail. Will the Government look again at the issue of mental health support in the light of the rise in the We know what we need to do, and we now have the number of suicides and self-harms? The Independent energy, resources and determination successfully to Advisory Panel on Deaths in Custody found that deliver effective probation in the community. fewer than 1% of more than 75,000 community orders made last year included a mental health treatment requirement. Just as worryingly, male prisoners in the 1.34 pm year to this June were 3.7 times more likely to attempt Lord Beecham (Lab): My Lords, I join the noble suicide than the general population, while self-harm Baroness in congratulating the noble Lord on securing incidents rose to a record high of 58,000—an increase this timely debate. We have one of the highest rates of of 24%—and anxiety and depression more than doubled incarceration of any western European country, with from 23% to 49%. What steps are being taken to offenders housed in overcrowded and understaffed ensure that appropriate staffing and access to medical prisons. There were more than 300 deaths in prisons in care are available to tackle these problems? Is it not England and Wales between June 2018 and June 2019, time for a comprehensive review of the state of mental with an increase of 20% in the 10 most troubled health across the Prison Service, led by medical prisons. professionals? In this context, it is worth noting that Assaults against staff rose from 2,848 in 2010 to private prisons are up to 47% more violent than public 10,213 in 2018—an average of 28 a day—with the prisons and more likely to be overcrowded. It is time number of serious assaults rising from 302 to 995 in to exclude profit-making organisations from managing— the same period. Two-thirds of prison staff reported or, perhaps more accurately, mismanaging—this critical feeling unsafe last year and only 10% thought that the service for profit. situation would improve this year. The number of The second part of this debate deals with another prison staff members in public sector prisons resigning deplorable legacy of the unlamented Chris Grayling’s has grown from 1,415 in 2017 to 2,358 in the year to tenure as Lord Chancellor, namely in the probation March 2019. A similar pattern is found in the National service. At long last the so-called transforming Probation Service, where resignations increased from rehabilitation reforms are to be dispatched and the 399 to 565. We have 2,000 fewer prison officers than in ridiculous division between private sector community 2010 and 40% of those in post have less than three rehabilitation companies and the National Probation years’ experience—four times the percentage in 2010. Service will come to an end in 2021, after seven lean The Chief Inspector of Prisons affirms that: years for the taxpayer and, perhaps more importantly, 1815 Offender Management and Treatment[LORDS] Offender Management and Treatment 1816

[LORD BEECHAM] in providing services. I do not take the view that small, those involved with the service. Some £280 million has local organisations are necessarily better than large been sent out to failing CRCs, in addition to the cost charities. Many of the larger organisations—such as of the service, while the number of serious further Nacro, of which I am president—provide outstanding offences has risen by 40% since 2014—more than half services and have strong local links and knowledge in of that increase coming in the past two years. the areas where they work throughout the country. It is not, however, a clean break: the Government There are also, however, many local voluntary agencies are set on retaining an element of CRC involvement. providing excellent rehabilitation services, and the new Yet when the National Association of Probation arrangements have effectively squeezed them out. We Officers—the probation officers’ union—raised issues need to be making the best use of what both large and over Working Links, which had the contract for Wales small organisations have to offer, and the transforming and the south-west, the Government took no notice. rehabilitation arrangements have failed to do that. Working Links is no longer working: it went into Even for private sector companies, the financial administration in February. In the meantime, there are arrangements have proved daunting. Two of the 1,000 unfilled vacancies in the National Probation companies that received contracts—Working Links Service, so that staff have case loads twice as large as and Interserve, which between them managed eight of their capacity. NAPO has four major objectives which the 21 CRC projects—have gone into administration. Ministers should accept, including that: all probation This is no way to manage a key public service. It work should be restored to public control; all probation cannot be acceptable that major service-providers that staff should be employed on NPS terms; and the 8,000 are supervising offenders in the community are liable community rehabilitation company staff should transfer to go under at any moment, leaving the Government to the NPS. It also calls for a fully integrated and to scramble around to find other organisations to take unified service delivered by a single organisation, while over their contracts. allowing for specialist third-sector provision in partnership arrangements. Significantly, it recognises the potential The split between the National Probation Service, of partnership with local specialist providers at local which manages high-risk offenders, and the community level. What will the Government’s response be to its rehabilitation companies, which manage medium- and suggestions? low-risk offenders, was never likely to work well. It was an artificial split because many offenders who 1.41 pm start out as low-level petty offenders move on, over time, to become high-risk offenders. The National Lord Dholakia (LD): My Lords, I commend the Probation Service has largely done a good job in noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, on drawing attention managing high-risk offenders, including those released to the issue of arrangements for the management and on parole, less than 1% of whom go on to commit treatment of offenders. This issue has been dominated further serious offences. in recent years by the transforming rehabilitation changes, which were introduced in 2014 and 2015. The stated The same is not true of the community rehabilitation aims of transforming rehabilitation were in many ways companies. Most inspections of CRCs by the probation admirable. They included making the best use of the inspectorate have found their performance inadequate. statutory, voluntary and private sectors in the process The overall picture is one of high probation case of rehabilitating offenders. In practice, however, the loads, staff shortages—11% nationally and around results of the changes have in many respects been little 20% in London—a high use of agency staff and short of a disaster. Let me explain why. frequent transfers of offenders from one officer to The arrangements for enabling the private and another in the course of their supervision. There has voluntary sectors to bid for work with offenders favoured been a catastrophic fall in the number of offenders large private sector companies that can take significant given community sentences; their number has more financial risks. The arrangements squeezed out most than halved in the past decade, even though community voluntary sector agencies, which had little realistic sentences have lower reconviction rates than prison chance of bidding. There was a heavy emphasis on sentences for similar offenders. There has been a sharp paying organisations according to the volume of work fall in the number of offenders taking part in accredited which they received and, because this volume was offending behaviour programmes, which have been uncertain, organisations had to incur expenditure without shown to reduce reoffending—by 56% between 2009 knowing whether they would receive enough work to and 2017. reimburse them properly. There was no way that most If the new arrangements are to work well, they voluntary organisations could take the financial risk must also include a series of other changes to improve of becoming involved in these arrangements. the prospects for offenders’ rehabilitation. Planning As a result, as the House of Commons Justice for prisoners’ resettlement needs to begin as soon as Committee concluded last year,there is now less voluntary they are received into custody, and it should continue sector involvement in the provision of probation services throughout their sentence. It should not be left—as it than before the transforming rehabilitation arrangements has been under transforming rehabilitation—until began. This is of particular concern because voluntary 12 weeks before release, when it is often too late to agencies have expertise in areas such as housing, make realistic applications for suitable housing on employment, training, mentoring, addiction and mental release or for enrolment on training courses. Prisoners health that are key to rehabilitating offenders and should be able to claim universal credit before they are reducing reoffending. It has been particularly difficult released, so that they can start receiving benefits as for small, local voluntary agencies to become involved soon as they step outside the prison gate. 1817 Offender Management and Treatment[3 OCTOBER 2019] Offender Management and Treatment 1818

I wanted to identify a number of other issues but, However, the Government’s policy—I am sure that since my time is up, I shall follow up with written the Minister will correct me if I am wrong—seems to questions. be to lock up more people for longer despite the woeful shortage in properly trained prison staff. Of course, I welcome the Government’s recognition of the need to spend more to make such a policy work, 1.47 pm but it would surely make more sense to adopt a policy Lord Jay of Ewelme (CB): My Lords, I am very which reduced or abolished short sentences and invested glad to take part in this debate, and it is always a more, working alongside charities and others, in pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia. community-based initiatives that reduce the rate of I should perhaps declare an interest: my wife has reoffending—all as part of a coherent strategy, as the been a prison visitor and governor most of her life, noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, said so powerfully in and, as the High Sherriff of Oxfordshire this year, will introducing this debate. have visited every prison in Oxfordshire,Buckinghamshire and Berkshire. She also recently visited the NHS secure 1.52 pm hospital at Broadmoor.I also thank my noble kinswoman The Lord Bishop of Gloucester: My Lords, I, too, Lady Bottomley for her remarks. am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rambsotham, for My own interest in this matter is less expert but no bring forward this debate and I am glad to be speaking less concerned. According to the International Centre in it. for Prison Studies, for every 100,000 people in the I have a particular interest in women’s interaction population of England and Wales 148 were in prison, with the justice system as the lead Bishop on women’s compared with 94 in Germany and 85 in France. I do prisons, and I have been carefully following the progress not want to turn this into a Brexit debate, but I do not of the female offender strategy.The strategy was published believe that the British are more criminally inclined in June 2018, and it prioritised earlier intervention, than the French or Germans. The only justification, community-based solutions, and effective, decent custody therefore, for such an imbalance in the figures would for women who have to be there. There has been be that we believe that locking more people away and widespread consensus in this House and beyond that then releasing them back into the community is the community-based provision for most women offenders best way of achieving the Government’s objectives of offers both cheaper and more effective rehabilitation reducing offending rates and keeping costs down. than prison. That, however, does not seem to be the case. Sir Tom Last year, the Lord Speaker graciously allowed me Winsor, the Chief Inspector of Constabulary, said to host an event here in the River Room. The most recently: powerful speaker at that event was someone called “Very high proportions of people in prison are unwell, uneducated, Lisa, who shared her lived experience of addiction, undervalued and justifiably angry … Many more have severe and domestic violence and custody. She said: chronic mental ill-health, intensified by years of lack of diagnosis “I can guarantee that very few, if any, women and young or adequate early treatment”. people dream of growing up to be criminal addicted to drugs … I Furthermore, the Prison Reform Trust has noted that am one of the fortunate ones who found help to re-connect with violence has risen to record levels in England and my dreams ... I wonder how my life would have been different if I Wales. had received earlier intervention and been offered more effective Of course, the public need to be protected from community services”. violent offenders and society expects violent offenders She went on to explain that, although she had been, to be punished—but surely not violently. Surely, too, “locked in painful patterns of behaviour”, that does not mean that the conditions under which she was fortunate to have found a women’s centre in prisoners are held should so often be appalling. Gloucester. She described Nelson Trust as having been I suppose that conditions inside prisons might be the one and only service she experienced that offered less reprehensible if prisoners were released into the proper trauma-informed community courses which community at the end of their sentence in a way which enabled her to change and function well in society. reduced their chances of reoffending, but that, alas, It has always been my position that for some women seems not to be the case either. Figures from 2017 a prison sentence is appropriate. However, this is not indicate that roughly one-third of released prisoners true for the majority of women in custody. Family commit crimes and go back to prison within a year, separation and a revolving door cannot solve painful, and about two-thirds of adults who have served less ingrained patterns of behaviour frequently stemming than 12 months in prison reoffend. from abuse and family breakdown. As has already There are fortunately some extremely good and been pointed by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, twice dedicated charities which help train prisoners in prison as many women are in prison now as 20 years ago. so that they have the skills to prosper outside, such as Last year, almost 70% of women in prison were there Fine Cell Work and The Clink, or which help prisoners for less than six months and 82% of those sentences when they are released, such as Aspire Oxford, but were for non-violent offences. surely it would be infinitely better if fewer people were Such short stays are counterproductive as well as sent to prison, at least for lesser crimes, in the first expensive. Furthermore, the recent report from the place. Evidence published by the Ministry of Justice Joint Committee on Human Rights regarding children shows that community sentences are more effective whose mothers are in prison gives a concerning account than short prison sentences in helping people desist of the lack of support given to both children and from crime. mothers who are separated when the mother is taken 1819 Offender Management and Treatment[LORDS] Offender Management and Treatment 1820

[THE LORD BISHOP OF GLOUCESTER] work and experience tell us that they would be much into custody.Can the Minister say when the Government better served by other interventions. They should not will respond to this report and particularly its concern be arrested. that the lack of data on the number of children In 2017, just over two-thirds of women sentenced affected by maternal imprisonment represents, to immediate custody were given sentences of less “a very serious … deficit that must be urgently addressed”? than six months and 246 women were sentenced to As has been mentioned, there is also the issue of prison for less than two weeks. This suggests that there housing. The Chief Inspector of Prisons’ report on is a significant proportion of women who are arrested HMP Eastwood Park in my own diocese revealed that, but who have not committed violent crimes and who in the previous six months, 42% of women were released would be much better served by other interventions. either into homelessness or into temporary or emergency The Government’s Female Offender Strategy, raised accommodation. This is simply unacceptable. Separating by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Gloucester, women from families and community support and recognises that arresting women should not always be releasing them after a short time into homelessness the answer. It states: does nothing to address the causes of offending. This has an impact on our whole community,as was recognised “Coming into contact with the criminal justice system, and in in the female offender strategy. particular custody, can undermine the ability of women to address the issues that have caused their offending. In particular, many I want to express my dismay at the recent funding have difficulty maintaining employment and accommodation whilst announcements relating to justice. When the female in the CJS”. offender strategy was welcomed here in your Lordships’ The Lloyds Bank Foundation for England and Wales House, concerns were expressed about the level of is funding the Howard League for Penal Reform to funding for it. Sadly, those concerns have been borne work with national policing bodies and individual out. Only £5 million of funding for the strategy has police forces to stem the arrests of women. This is an been secured. Far more is required for its changes to important piece of work. The All-Party Parliamentary be meaningfully implemented. Group on Women in the Penal System is working on We know what works. What is missing is investment this issue too. I was at a recent meeting where it and impetus. The lack of action has real human questioned the Howard League on what it wanted to consequences. To that end, I want to ask the Minister do, and the APPG published its first report last month. a number of questions. First, when will the Government The commission that I chaired, whose report earlier publish the national concordat promised in the female this year was called Breaking Down the Barriers, was offender strategy? It was due by the end of 2018 and is able to explore the impact of abuse on women. If any now almost a year behind schedule. Secondly, what Member has not yet had a look at the debate in the funding will be provided for women’s centres and Commons yesterday, they really should read it. It was services under the new probation model? Finally, what a remarkable debate with some remarkable testimonies. are the Government doing urgently to improve housing Many women who have faced abuse go on to face support for women released from prison? I am grateful challenges ranging from mental health issues to addiction, for your Lordships’ time today. which often put them at risk of criminality. The importance of the consequences of trauma cannot be exaggerated. The commission talked of the importance of the services that encounter such women and the 1.56 pm need to help workers to recognise trauma and its Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top (Lab): My Lords, it effect, and to know better how to deal with and is a real pleasure to follow the right reverend Prelate respond to that. on this issue. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord We know that in this and other areas, small local Ramsbotham, on securing this debate. His consistent charities are very important in supporting women in and almost relentless attention to this area of policy these circumstances. There are heartening examples of and its implications is now legendary. I thank him for their effective work with people facing complex social all that work. issues. However, the Transforming Rehabilitation Following up on what was said by the right reverend programme largely excluded them and, sadly, some Prelate, I want to speak mainly about the treatment of have now closed. The MoJ has acknowledged that this women in our criminal justice system. I remind colleagues was a bit of a problem and it recognised, in reforming of my interests, particularly in respect of the commission its proposals, the importance of charities. It has publicly on women who have experienced violence and abuse said that it wanted the new system to work better for that I recently chaired, my membership of the trustee them. However, the jury is still out on that and I board of the Lloyds Bank Foundation and my simply say to the Minister: unless the charitable sector involvement with Changing Lives, a charity based in is involved and supported, including the small, local the north-east. charities, the new system will simply not improve I have spoken on several occasions in this House on outcomes. the challenges faced by women who have experienced If we want to reduce reoffending, we need a new violence and abuse. As other noble Lords have said, approach. We know that many people in our homeless women who have a history of being subjected to services are there because they have been released violence and abuse are far too often overrepresented from prison with £47, with no fixed abode and having in the criminal justice system. A significant number of to wait up to 11 weeks for universal credit. Women are women are arrested for non-violent offences. All our being recalled into custody at an increasing rate because 1821 Offender Management and Treatment[3 OCTOBER 2019] Offender Management and Treatment 1822 of the levels of homelessness. These are realities. The The other area relating to the management of offenders Government need to understand the realities and work concerns the management of young offenders. My on them. years as chair of the Youth Justice Board were among the most rewarding of my life. I never visited a facility 2.03 pm or a locality without being in awe of those who work with our young offenders. I am proud that on my Lord McNally (LD): My Lords, following the noble watch, thanks to the groundwork of my predecessors, Baroness, Lady Armstrong, makes me feel very old there were fewer than 1,000 under-18s in custody at because I was in the House of Commons with her any one time, with fewer than 30 of them girls. Those father and in government with her father. I can say figures have remained the same under my successor no better: he was a great educationalist and a great Charlie Taylor. I commend Charlie Taylor for his parliamentarian, and she is a chip off the old block. determination to create and road-test in the youth For many years before this, the noble Lord, Lord justice system an education-led facility as a replacement Ramsbotham, has been consistent in campaigning for for the child prisons we have today. fundamental reform of our criminal justice system The other great asset of the YJB is the network of and our treatment of offenders in particular. That youth offending teams. The YOTs are cross-disciplinary consistency of approach is in sharp contrast to the teams embedded into local authorities and doing amazing inconsistency of government. Robert Buckland is now work to ensure that young offenders do not become the seventh Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State the serial offenders who graduate to lives of crime. If for Justice to occupy those offices of state in the last national and local expenditure is going to be increased, nine years. During that period, the budget of the those who really want to cut crime off at its headstream Ministry of Justice has been cut by about 40%. Between should be prepared to invest in youth services and 2010 and 2017, I spent seven years at the Ministry of youth offending teams. Here, too, the charitable and Justice, first as Minister of State and then as chair of voluntary sector has much to contribute in providing the Youth Justice Board for England and Wales. In a gateways to productive lives through sport, arts and department that spends its budget on prisons, probation, the community.I commend my parliamentary colleague courts, legal aid and youth justice, that reduction has Phillip Lee for his initiatives to promote sport as an meant that every aspect of our criminal justice system antidote to gang activity. I am pleased to see the noble has had to absorb draconian cuts in its budget; much- Baroness, Lady Sater, in her place. She was a great needed investment in buildings and technology has supporter of mine when she was on the Youth Justice been deferred and delayed. The tragedy is that even if Board. I commend the work of Rosie Meek at Royal the money becomes available to fund the necessary Holloway College and her research paper, and long-overdue reforms to every part of our criminal A Sporting as the benchmark of such a programme, and justice system, any new money is likely to be siphoned Chance, the work of James Mapstone at the Alliance of Sport off to satisfy the ideological bloodlust for a “bang ’em in Criminal Justice, which is doing so much good work up and throw away the key” penal policy, which has in promoting sport to make a difference in young failed time and again. people’s lives. Since the noble Baroness, Lady Sater, is I am pleased that the future of the probation service here, I had better also mention StreetGames, of which is being examined. I was not an enthusiast for the 2015 she is a very strong supporter. reforms. There were genuine concerns about the supervision of serious criminals by the private sector, Unfortunately, our debate takes place against a and the up-front financial commitments required to background where the Prime Minister and Home qualify to bid for contracts prevented many voluntary Secretary seem determined to ratchet up arguments and charitable bodies that could have brought new for more prisons and tougher prison sentences. This ideas to the system from doing so by financial constraints. House has always been a source of calm and quiet Given the difficulty of measuring success, it is probably counsel, and though we may be rowing against the true that rehabilitation of offenders does not lend stream in terms of sending a message to the Government, itself to payment by results. I wish the new attempt at I think that that is what we should do today. probation reform well, but I urge the following basics: retain the concept of through-the-gate preparation and delivery of probation; retain such services for 2.10 pm those serving short sentences of six months or less, or Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood (CB): My better still, do away with short sentences, as David Lords, I too pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Gauke was proposing in his short spell in the job; and Ramsbotham, to whom this House and indeed this retain the service as a national service with its head of nation owes a great debt. I want to focus on one equal stature to the head of the prison service and group of prisoners only: those serving indeterminate with similar direct access to Ministers. sentences for the protection of the public, IPPs, under I welcome the proposal to reorganise the service on a scheme introduced with effect from 2005 and abolished a regional basis, so it is able to adapt to local needs by LASPO seven years later, in 2012. That, of course, and ambitions. I also welcome building into this service is now seven years ago, yet there remain detained scope in the budget to involve the skills and experience 2,315 people—I am using three-month-old statistics—and of the voluntary sector, but I note—and I hope the there are another 1,114 recalled IPP prisoners. Let me Minister notes—the warning given by several speakers share one or two shocking figures. All but 175 of all about how to get the voluntary sector working effectively those have passed their tariff dates: they have served in this; otherwise, the work will still go to the big longer than their due punishment justified. Some 55% have corporations. served over six years beyond the tariff, 35% have 1823 Offender Management and Treatment[LORDS] Offender Management and Treatment 1824

[LORD BROWN OF EATON-UNDER-HEYWOOD] 2.15 pm served more than eight years beyond tariff, and 13%, more than 270 prisoners, have served more than 10 years Lord Farmer (Con): My Lords, I too am very grateful beyond what was required as due punishment. Surely, to the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for initiating I am not alone in finding those figures disheartening this important debate and for his wise, insightful opening and, indeed, quite appalling. remarks, particularly recommending a proper strategy going forward. I shall focus on two areas: the importance Ken Clarke described the plight of these post-LASPO of relationships in the rehabilitation process, and the IPPs as, need for reform of the way convictions are deemed to “a stain on the justice system”. be spent, so that rehabilitation is a meaningful concept Michael Gove, in his 2016 Longford lecture, said: for as many as possible. “In terms of pure justice and fairness”, I have talked before in this House about the two we should be releasing IPPs, reviews I was asked to lead by the Ministry of Justice. “who have served far longer than the gravity of the offence The first reported on the importance of strengthening requires”. male prisoners’family and other relationships to prevent He pointed out that many have served beyond the reoffending and intergenerational crime. The second maximum terms stipulated for the offence, except for took a broader look at the same issue for female the IPP scheme. Even the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, offenders and included those serving a custodial or regretted introducing the scheme. The United Kingdom community sentence, women who had been diverted has more indeterminate sentence prisoners than the away from the courts and women who were re-entering other 46 Council of Europe countries combined. society post release. For both males and females, research When the IPP scheme was first brought in, it nearly consistently points to a simple principle of reform that doubled the number of indeterminate sentence prisoners needs to be a golden thread running through the here. prison system and the agencies that surround it. That Indeterminate sentence prisoners face real problems, principle is that relationships are fundamentally important particularly those with short tariffs. These sentences if people are to change. induce a sort of Kafkaesque sense of despair,hopelessness Professor Nicola Lacey from the LSE expresses this and uncertainty, not just for prisoners but for their well by pointing out that, for most of the two centuries families. Think of being the mother or wife of a in which imprisonment has been routinely imposed as prisoner serving such a sentence. Hardly surprisingly, punishment for crime, the systems of thought and the number of IPPs who self-harm and, in a significant governance on which this rests have, number of cases, commit suicide is significantly higher “focused on the individual offender and his or her relationship than among any other group of prisoners. More than with the state ... Penal philosophy’s strongly individualistic half of IPPs self-harm. It is really dreadful. It is a form presuppositions about the nature of human beings and social of preventive detention, a sort of internment. relations are open to challenge”. Of course, the infamous case of Warboys seriously Enabling men and women to maintain their caring set back the overall cause of these IPPs—but he had responsibilities to the fullest extent possible, where an eight-year tariff and was ordered to be released, appropriate, provides much-needed motivation for their initially, within two years of that. I am concerned with personal reform and helps break the cycle of inter- the other end of the IPP spectrum: those, often with generational crime—hence my recommendation in the comparatively short tariffs, who are still there for female review that prisons employ social workers. lengths of time, eight years or more, beyond what Their case load will be the women inside and they will punishment required. be in a strong position to liaise and negotiate with LASPO provided, in terms, for a ministerial power, children’s social workers outside so that the best interests if necessary, to change the test to be applied by the of the child take precedence. Similarly, Skype-type Parole Board in authorising a prisoner’s release. At the technology will enable children and their mothers to moment they have to prove to the Parole Board that see each other—again, where it is agreed that this will they can safely be released—a very difficult test to mitigate the pain of separation and not add to children’s satisfy. Surely, I suggest, it is time for that burden to be anxiety. reversed and for those seeking to justify continuing When we look at the profile of our prison and detention to prove, on the basis of probability, that, if wider offender populations, the prevalence of adverse released, a prisoner would go on to commit serious childhood experiences, ACEs, is salient. ACEs include offences. abuse or neglect, exposure to domestic violence, parental I have made these points time and again over recent substance misuse, parental mental health problems, years; there is nothing original in what I have just said. parental divorce and separation, parental incarceration But what would be original would be for the Government, and, in some studies, bereavement. All of these mediate at long last, not only to recognise the manifest injustice the extent to which children will experience safe, stable of the plight of this group of prisoners but to summon and nurturing relationships. Public Health Wales found up the political will to do something about it. I urge that adults are 20 times more likely to be incarcerated the Justice Secretary finally to reverse the test, to end at some point in their life if they have experienced four the recall system which brings these people back all or more ACEs. Unsurprisingly,therefore, children whose too easily, time and again, and to convert any remaining home lives were so difficult that they were taken into sentences to fixed terms. Do whatever is necessary: local authority care are grossly overrepresented in the remedies are plainly available. In the idiom of today, prison population. A quarter of men and almost a just get it done. third of women in prison spent time in care as children. 1825 Offender Management and Treatment[3 OCTOBER 2019] Offender Management and Treatment 1826

We are becoming increasingly aware that the lack of liaison—between those working outside and inside good relationships—especially where there are other prison is vital, because people are individuals. adversities, often reaching back into childhood—is a I remember a chief superintendent of police in major risk factor for criminal activity. This can never Yorkshire, who was greatly respected and about to excuse crime, nor ignore personal responsibility and retire, saying to me that he had come to one conclusion the consequences for victims, but it does help to explain in life, and that was that the moment of greatest it. The implementation team in the Ministry of Justice significance was when a prisoner was being sentenced is working with prisons to ensure that cultural change and sent down. It was a traumatic experience for is taking place to reflect this awareness. It is a long, everyone involved. Of course, in some ways it should slow process, but the statistics suggest that it will be a be. Some carried it off with bravado; others were game changer for rehabilitation. devastated. He had become certain that the moment at This relational, ACE-aware approach also needs to which that prisoner went below, having been sent permeate other aspects of criminal justice, particularly down, was the moment when, ideally in society,somebody the issue of spent convictions. By way of illustration, should take him by the arm and say, “Now, come on. 70% of sex workers have been in care, and multiple How are we going to sort all this out?” What you convictions for prostitution can destroy a woman’s needed from then on was a recognition that it was an chance of securing a wide range of employment for a individual with whom you were dealing and that meeting considerable time. Former prostitutes won their case the challenges of individuals in the process of rehabilitation at the High Court against the requirement that they was crucial. must disclose their convictions to employers. They I just despair, because it seems to me that, rationally, said they had been “groomed, pimped and trafficked” in any humane society rehabilitation is crucial to and that their criminal records could be seen also as a ensuring the well-being of criminals, reducing the cost catalogue of the abuse meted out to them from a time to society of reoffending and having a chance of when they were vulnerable minors. seeing people who have the potential to be decent, More broadly, Unlock states that, every year, more participatory citizens reaching that point. At the moment, than 7,000 people receive a conviction of more than so many of our prisons are an absolute disgrace and four years which will never become spent. In their completely counterproductive: self-harm, suicide,violence, words, this amounts to, overcrowding and inhumane conditions. How can that “an invisible punishment that will forever shadow the individual, provide a context in which there is any hope of achieving preventing full rehabilitation and meaningful employment even effective rehabilitation? after completing the sentence”. I was struck by what the noble Lord, Lord McNally, Protecting current and future victims is obviously said in this context in his concluding remarks. We have of paramount concern, and reforms must continue to a Government which are setting their face in the balance out competing needs. But many who have opposite direction. Nowhere are evidence-based policy- served time have been victims too. Will the Government making and rationality more essential. Populism and look again at reforming the Rehabilitation of Offenders gallery playing have absolutely no place if we are to Act 1974 from the vantage point of what we now take seriously the rehabilitation of offenders and win know about adverse childhood experiences and the the battle for humanity. I am very sad indeed to see the harrowing ramifications which flow from a lack of Government leading in precisely the wrong direction. good relationships?

2.21 pm 2.28 pm Lord Judd (Lab): My Lords, it is always good to Lord Beith (LD): My Lords, I very much agree with have the opportunity to follow the noble Lord, Lord the noble Lord, Lord Judd, and I also agree with all Farmer, in debates of this kind. His consistent, those Peers who have thanked the noble Lord, Lord powerful argument has been repeated in debate after Ramsbotham, for introducing this debate. Perhaps I debate in this place, and I just wish he was listened to should also put in a word for the Supreme Court, where it really mattered. I should also like to place on without which we would not be allowed to sit here and record my appreciation to the noble Lord, Lord have this debate, especially as it was bumped off by the Ramsbotham, for having secured this debate. His original decision to prorogue. record speaks for itself. His commitment in this area Until 2015, I was chairman of the Justice Committee is quite extraordinary. in the House of Commons—a post which was then The noble Lord, Lord Farmer, referred to many taken over by my excellent successor, Bob Neill. The offenders themselves being victims. This is a sad Justice Committee warned repeatedly of fundamental reality. During my years as president of the YMCA, I weaknesses in the transforming rehabilitation programme, was privileged to do a certain amount of support both before it was introduced and in the light of its work among those on the front line in young offender evident failings. institutions. What I learned without any qualification The committee also warned of the folly of constantly was that so many of those youngsters were sad increasing the prison population when resources were victims of society in one way and another. What was not provided to ensure that this massive prison so telling was that, not infrequently, they were really population—the largest, proportionately, in western afraid of their release into society because of what Europe—was housed in prisons which were safe for would meet them there. One of the things that has both staff and prisoners and had effective and sustained come across very powerfully in this debate is that, if programmes of rehabilitation. Now, as the noble Lord, effective work is to be done, co-operation—not just Lord Judd, just mentioned, we have a Government 1827 Offender Management and Treatment[LORDS] Offender Management and Treatment 1828

[LORD BEITH] The public also need confidence that sentencing is who want to create 10,000 more prison places and are effective. There is plenty of evidence that, presented already talking about proposals for sentencing which, with the full facts of a case, members of the public are on their own admission, would lead to an increase of less likely to opt for longer sentences and more likely to 3,000 in the prison population. Such increases almost recommend community alternatives than judges and inevitably lead to further sentence inflation, as other magistrates currently do. We have got stuck with the offences are judged in relation to those for which the idea that the use of custody and longer sentences is the sentence has been increased. There is a ratchet effect, only way that society can express its abhorrence of serious which is very serious. crime, the only mechanism to rate a crime as serious. I want to highlight some important recurring themes It is a necessary function of the criminal justice in that committee’s work which I think are relevant to system that crime is punished, and society needs to what we are discussing today. First, prison is a very have means to express its abhorrence of serious crime expensive resource. In its report Prison Population 2022, and ways to identify some crimes especially as intolerable the committee states: and requiring a severe response. However, to use the length of prison sentences as the sole yardstick of “There is a grave risk that we become locked in a vicious cycle of prisons perpetually absorbing huge amounts of criminal-justice social disapproval, the sole mechanism to classify the related spending”, seriousness of particular forms of crime, is to destroy any possibility of using limited resources rationally to and that that spending diverts funds from, prevent further crime. Good, effective and robust “essential initiatives that could stem or reverse the predicted growth”. community sentences need to be available. If another This is a cycle that leads to more crime, not less; more year added to the sentence offers no better prospect of victims, not fewer. preventing that offender from returning to crime, it is Under my encouragement, the committee went to taxpayers’ money wasted. Texas, which may seem surprising, as Texas is generally Many victims of crime will tell you that their priority thought of as a place of somewhat harsh penal policy. for the criminal justice system is that it ensures that We went to talk to people who across the aisle— others do not have to go through what they have been Republicans and Democrats—were working to reduce through. They want to stop reoffending and the the prison population and divert some of the money recruitment of more people into criminal behaviour. being spent on prisons into measures to tackle drug-related That is what the system does least well, and that is why crime. When we questioned the Republicans in particular we need to get it right. on why they were taking that approach, they said, “This is the taxpayers’ dollar. We are Republicans. We 2.35 pm care about how the taxpayers’ dollar is spent. If it is Lord Bichard (CB): My Lords, we are all indebted not being spent effectively to deliver the results that to the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for initiating taxpayers want, we have to change it”. That was the the debate and for his powerful opening contribution. basis for a fundamental rethink of the whole policy on In a recent article in the New Statesman, Rory Stewart, prisons. Policy needs to be evidence led, and the recently a Minister with responsibility for prisons, said evidence is that overuse of prison and custody does that we should rediscover a sense of anger and shame not lead to better rehabilitation. at the state of our prisons, which should, in turn, be A second theme of the committee’s work was that the spur to action and reform. He was right on both we need to build greater confidence among sentencers counts. We should be angry—a lot of that has been in alternatives to prison. That requires investment of a demonstrated today in the House—and we should be larger share of resources in community sentences, not committed to reforming the system. a draining away of those resources into the prison Leaving aside for the moment the unacceptable system. The committee has pointed out the cost and conditions in too many prisons, we have designed a unsuitability of custodial sentences for many women system which could hardly do more to prevent prisoners, who have a greater chance of rehabilitation rehabilitation. Prisoners often serve their sentences far through women’s centres in the community. away from family and friends who could provide the Part of the problem is that prisons are commissioned support they need. Many informed observers feel that, nationally on a demand-led basis, not by bodies also when prisoners receive education, it does little to responsible for community sentences and all the services improvetheiremploymentprospectsorreducereoffending. essential for rehabilitation. The result is that, when They are often discharged back into the community sentence is being passed, if it is a custodial sentence, with inadequate continuing support, or indeed basic there is never any doubt that a place, however unsuitable, accommodation. The constant fear of politicians seems will be found somewhere in the prison system, and to be not whether they will be held accountable for there will be a van outside which will take the prisoner those failings, but that they will be attacked if they away to that custodial place. There may be real doubt, address them for being soft on crime. on the other hand, as to the availability of suitable Putting all that aside, today I want to concentrate community supervision, drug treatment, employment on just one aspect of the problem: mental health in training or any of the other features which a non-custodial prisons. In doing so, I draw on the report which the sentence would require. The split commissioning model National Audit Office produced in 2017. I should has failed, and we need to pull those disparate declare that I am chairman of the National Audit commissioning bodies together to provide custody for Office. That report concluded that the Government those for whom it is essential and robust community-based did not even know how many people in prison had alternatives in which sentencers have confidence. a mental illness, although such estimates as there 1829 Offender Management and Treatment[3 OCTOBER 2019] Offender Management and Treatment 1830 were suggested that somewhere between 37%—the campaigning to improve the plight of prisoners and estimate of Her Majesty’s inspector—and 90% were the conditions they are kept in. mentally unwell, with only 10% receiving treatment. This week saw the Government announce their The NAO report also concluded that the Government intention to automatically increase the length of some did not know how much they were spending on mental prison sentences, although judges already have the health in prisons, whether they were achieving their power to do so where they consider the risk to the objectives or whether they were delivering value for public to be high. To the alarm of prison reformers, money. the Government have also signalled their determination What was clear,as other noble Lords have mentioned, to abandon their earlier acceptance that short-term was that self-inflicted deaths and self-harm were rising sentences are ineffective. How will these announcements at an alarming rate, such that the number of self-harm tackle the crisis in our overcrowded prisons? Record incidents had risen in the four years before the report levels of violence against staff and inmates, adding to was published by 73% to 41,000 and that self-inflicted low morale among overstretched officers, will not be deaths had doubled to 120. Speaking when the report resolved by building more prisons without a commitment was published, the then Comptroller and Auditor-General, to radically improving rehabilitation and reducing not known for overstating his case, said: reoffending, not just increasing numbers in prison. “Improving the mental health of those in prison will require a At its conference last week, Labour pledged to end step change in effort and resource”. ineffective short sentences of six months or less for The question is whether we have seen that step non-violent and non-sexual offences. Such sentences change since 2017. There have certainly been attempts serve only to disrupt family ties, result in homelessness to address the issue. Staff numbers have increased by and loss of jobs and interrupt treatment programmes. 3,200 since March 2017. That is really important, They are counterproductive, not constructive. because fewer staff means that prisoners spend more Labour also pledged to divert funds the Government time in their cells and are less likely to access mental have allocated to build these promised 10,000 prison health services and to have personal, one-to-one support. places to fund schemes proven to reduce reoffending— However, of course, that increase follows a reduction especially long-term investment in women’s centres, as of 26% in the total workforce in the previous years. recommended by my noble friend Lady Corston in her In addition, improvements have been made to mental ground-breaking 2007 report. The APPG on Women health training for prison staff. That is to be welcomed, in the Penal System, which my noble friend chairs, has because in the three years to 2016, 40% of prisons did called for the abolition of prison sentences of less than not provide any mental health refresher training. Data- 12 months for women. As she said: sharing arrangements have been introduced and will “Too often, magistrates view custody as the only option when hopefully ensure that when prisoners are screened on all the evidence indicates that women’s centres provide better arrival, staff will have access to previous GP records, support for women and are more effective at reducing offending”. without which they will not even know whether a However,if the vulnerable continue to be incarcerated, prisoner has been diagnosed with a previous mental rehabilitation must be the priority. As the noble Lord, illness. That has not been the case hitherto. There is Lord McNally, has already mentioned, Professor Rosie now in place a partnership agreement between the Meek’s independent review of sport in youth and Prison Service, NHS England and Public Health England adult prisons, entitled A Sporting Chance, which focused that focuses on mental health. on health and relationships and was published a year It is far too early to say whether any of these good ago, has excellent recommendations. She argues that intentions will be delivered and will deliver improvements. sport, and the relationships it can foster, can motivate As other noble Lords have said, the worry is that much young men with complex offending histories, some else is threatening to make the situation even worse, with especially challenging and disruptive behaviour, not least because of the increased numbers of prisoners to change their attitudes and lifestyles. It can improve now promised by the current Administration and because mental and physical health, thereby reducing violence, although self-inflicted deaths have reduced from 120 and tackle reoffending. The report also calls for the to 86 last year, cases of self-harm have increased from development of a physical activity strategy to meet the that record 41,000 to a staggering 58,000. The number particularly complex and unique needs of women and of attacks on prison staff has tripled since 2010, and girls in prison, 57% of whom have been victims of prisoner-on-prisoner assaults have doubled too. domestic abuse, and gives special consideration to the This really cannot be allowed to continue. Yes, we high levels of trauma they have experienced before need to see a strategy, but it needs to be followed by entering custody. action rather than promises.I suggest that the Government The Government commissioned the Meek report publish a comprehensive strategy with measurable and should now implement its recommendations and targets to improve mental health in prisons, and that it reconsider the decision not to endorse one on martial is then independently monitored every year. Frankly, arts. As the DCMS Select Committee recently noted: the failure to take seriously the issue of mental health “Violent incidents in prisons appear to be at an all-time high in prisons should shame us all. and the report’s recommendations reflect the need to consider alternative violence reduction strategies. Given the positive impact of boxing and martial arts programmes in our communities, as reflected in the evidence we have received, prison governors 2.41 pm should be given the option of using similar approaches in their Baroness Healy of Primrose Hill (Lab): My Lords, I establishments, if they so wish”. too welcome this timely debate and congratulate the Effective rehabilitation must be a top priority if we noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, on his tireless are to overcome the revolving door whereby 29% of 1831 Offender Management and Treatment[LORDS] Offender Management and Treatment 1832

[BARONESS HEALY OF PRIMROSE HILL] regimes that leave prisoners spending hours on end in adults and 42% of children reoffend within one year their cells without phone calls, work, exercise, education of release. Rehabilitation cannot be achieved if prisoners or library visits. Are books being restricted to prisoners are kept in their cells for most of the day without in some prisons? productive and worthwhile activity, yet over one-third I spent many years as a member of a board of of young adult prisoners aged 18 to 21 are locked in visitors—now known as monitors—at Wetherby young their cells for at least 22 hours a day. offender institution. I assure your Lordships that many More imaginative use must be made of the voluntary young people have a multitude of problems, involving bodies that want to assist in rehabilitation. Charities violence and sexual abuse within some of their families. such as the Liberty Choir, through singing sessions, There are also drug, alcohol and gambling addictions. and the Prison Phoenix Trust, which supports prisoners I have always felt that there should be more contact in their spiritual lives through meditation and yoga, with probation and welfare officers, uniting the penal could be given greater access to the prison estate as institution with the prisoners’ outside contacts. A their interventions have already proven effective in percentage of inmates will be pronounced homeless; turning prisoners’ lives around, both in custody and they will need more support if they are to survive on release, through encouraging a greater sense of outside prison. There are many voluntary organisations well-being and self-worth. Clinks, the national advocacy helping with the many needs of people incarcerated in group that supports voluntary organisations working prison. They should be welcomed. There should be a in the criminal justice system, calls for the Ministry of continued link to prisoners with addiction when returning Justice,courts,probation services and prisons to champion to the community but some of these services have volunteers who can work on prevention. They can recently been cut, so there is a now a problem with help in the early identification of people with health continuing their treatment. needs, diverting them into treatment and ensuring I want to bring to your Lordships the serious continuity of care for people as they enter prison, problem of the increasing number with sexually move between prisons and, crucially, are released back transmitted diseases. The link between prison and the into the community. The probation service cannot do community is vital. Many inmates do not have GPs in everything alone. the community,so links with STI clinics need organising. It is regrettable that the Government appear to be Contact tracing can be difficult. The prevention of redirecting their criminal justice programme towards a infection is so important, particularly with vulnerable focus on retribution rather than rehabilitation. Can groups of people. If we do not promote public health the Minister clarify the position on reducing the use of education in prisons, I feel we are losing an opportunity. short-term sentences? Only by increasing efforts to Prisoners are a sitting target for doing something prevent crime, with more police and better services to about the soaring rates of STIs. There has been a divert the young and vulnerable away from criminality, 249% increase in gonorrhoea since 2009, including a can we begin to cut the numbers entering our overcrowded 26% rise within the last year. Very worryingly, three prisons. We must ensure that rehabilitation works to cases of extensively drug-resistant gonorrhoea were stop the cycle of reoffending, which only creates yet identified in 2018. more victims and blights the lives of future generations There are great concerns about antibiotics whose parents have been imprisoned. becoming resistant to infections. The Health and Social Care Committee’s recent report, Sexual Health, high- 2.47 pm lighted the need for a national sexual health strategy. Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB): My Lords, I It recommended that Public Health England, in congratulate my noble friend on successfully securing collaboration with, this debate. I live not far from the county town of “a broad-based working group of representatives drawn from all Northallerton in North Yorkshire, which for years had sectors involved in commissioning and providing sexual health a prison with good reports. Three years ago the prison services”, was sold and half of it demolished. The wall and half including prisons and probation services, should develop the prison, with its modern entrance, remain. There is a new sexual health strategy to, a huge pile of bricks from the demolished part within the walls. The prison remains in limbo, symbolising a “provide clear national leadership in this area”. crumbling Prison Service. In Glasgow, there is a worrying concern that cases The Prison and Probation Service poses an enormous of HIV have recently increased. The reason is not challenge for government. Dedicated, experienced staff known. I feel it is important that the probation services are needed if prisoners are to be controlled and have training about the dangers of STIs, so that infected rehabilitated satisfactorily.Prison officers need awareness prisoners know where they can get ongoing treatment training in disabilities, such as deafness, to stop isolation. when they are released into the community. Data from There was hope when Rory Stewart MP was Prisons the sexual health doctors’ association indicates that a Minister. He was enthusiastic and full of energy. He worryingly high proportion of those doctors are having showed great leadership, which is what the prisons to turn patients away because they do not have the need. If prisoners are locked up in cells for 22 hours a capacity to see them. day without work, exercise and education, it is not I hope that the Government will realise that something surprising that worrying assaults on prison staff erupt must be done to support public health in the endeavour far too often. With the danger of gang wars and drug to lessen the risk of STIs within prisons and out in the abuse, this whole situation needs tackling. Overcrowding community at large. Cutting public health is, without and staff shortages mean that prisons run restricted a doubt, a false economy. 1833 Offender Management and Treatment[3 OCTOBER 2019] Offender Management and Treatment 1834

2.53 pm I propose making a new sentence available to the courts: to be detained for training at Her Majesty’s Earl Attlee (Con): My Lords, I am grateful to the pleasure, or “DFT”. Release would be on achieving noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for introducing this the required standard of performance, training and debate, as well as for the helpful guidance that he has conduct. This is not an IPP and there would have to be given to me on this subject in recent years. Just over a cap of, say, five years. However, the time on remand two years ago, the noble and learned Lord, Lord would not help other than in respect of the cap. The Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, initiated a debate first stage of “DFT” would be to ensure compliance on prison overcrowding, which convinced me to take a with the training regime. I call this “tick-tock”. Noble very close interest in the UK prison system. I confined Lords will recall the late Viscount Whitelaw’s “short, myself to issues after sentence to immediate custody. sharp shock”. It was a failure because it was an end in My task was made much easier by the decision of the itself rather than a means to an end. It was no deterrent then Prisons Minister Rory Stewart to set up a pilot and did not address offenders’weaknesses. The proposed Prison Service parliamentary scheme. I am very grateful “tick-tock”camps would be in isolated rural areas—there to all those in the Prison Service who patiently helped would be no mobile phone signal. This would solve an me with my inquiries. It became clear to me that the awful lot of problems and drastically reduce the possibility problem in the prison system does not lie with the of drugs getting into the system. By the way, if we governors or the prison officers. I am full of admiration have a very boring regime in the current prison system— for both. and we do—why is anyone surprised that the prisoners I am still a new boy to this subject. However, it is want to take drugs? my opinion that the UK’s prison system is hopelessly The purpose of “tick-tock” is purely to enable flawed. It cannot be fixed by incremental reform; it greater risk to be safely taken later on. It is not per se a needs drastic reform. We have had at least seven punishment, although it might not be much fun. The Prisons Ministers and Justice Secretaries since May first requirements to be met on “DFT” as opposed to 2010, but you need at least four years to determine and “tick-tock” must be literacy and numeracy if there is start a process of drastic reform. Moreover, 10 years to be any chance of halting reoffending. The next would be needed to navigate the choppy waters of requirement is for the prisoner to acquire some genuine reform and to start seeing the benefits coming through. and desirable trade skills. Finally, horror of horror, Ministers will therefore undertake only short-term, there needs to be some fun. incremental reforms that are not too controversial. Most importantly, they will pass the Daily Mail test. 3 pm Why does anyone think that taking very seriously Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD): My Lords, I add my damaged youngsters who have had a rotten start in congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, life—“victimised by society”, as the noble Lord, on securing this debate. Lord Judd, put it—and putting them in a conventional What a mess we have made of the rehabilitation of prison regime will somehow, magically, make them prisoners in this country.With the highest incarceration better members of society? It cannot possibly work. It rate in western Europe, we are pursuing the failed is a hopelessly flawed system. strategy of building 10,000 more prison spaces, despite The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, has proposed the fact that a reoffending rate of nearly 50% shows a royal commission or the equivalent. I certainly support that prison is not working. Inside our prisons, self-harm that and will submit a comprehensive paper outlining increased by 24% this March over the previous year, my thoughts. However, I am concerned that the output with one self-inflicted death every four days. The may merely be a souped-up Woolf report—I see the charity Inquest says: noble and learned Lord in his place and look forward “Despair and distress are at unprecedented levels in failing to hearing his contribution. It might propose desirable institutions within a failing system”. reforms, but I very much doubt whether it would I would challenge any noble Lord in this House to propose drastic reform, because the inquiry would dispute that. have to take into account what is thought to be politically But instead of fostering a rehabilitative culture, our possible. In the coming months, I will be making the prisons are increasingly punitive in their approach to case for drastic reform in any fora that I can. managing conflict. Figures shown to the Howard League Prison reform is a wicked problem because, as the reveal that more than 1,000 years of additional Home Secretary will soon find, the obvious solutions punishment were added to sentences in 2018 for breaking are the wrong ones. No one can agree what the problems rules. I cannot believe it. are. If they do, they agree only on the symptoms. I The Howard League says that, therefore maintain an open mind. I am not fixed on “rather than building 10,000 more prison places, a strategy to any solution: I will merely suggest what drastic reform reduce the number of people held in expensive, ineffectual and might look like. In the time available, I can show a bit chaotic prisons is urgently needed”. of ankle only. Many noble Lords have talked about It would like to see the money for building more the problem of short sentences. They do not work prison places diverted into community-based initiatives because the regime in the current system is awful: and services such as housing, healthcare, education there is almost no incentive for short-term prisoners to and employment, which address the underlying causes improve themselves. In short, we are releasing prisoners of crime. We know that reoffending rates are much from custody after a defined period and not when they lower for community-based sentences, but the number have improved to a defined extent. For example, they of community orders has more than halved in recent may still have no literacy or numeracy skills. years. Something has gone horribly wrong, and I hope 1835 Offender Management and Treatment[LORDS] Offender Management and Treatment 1836

[BARONESS BURT OF SOLIHULL] has made it all the more timely, because the Government that the Minister will enlighten us as to why this is and have recently announced a programme of major reform what steps the Government are taking to redress it. of the treatment of offenders. That brings me to our poor, beleaguered probation The dominant theme of this reform can be summarised service. At the end of 2018, more than 250,000 people as, “putting more people in prison for longer”. Serious were on probation in England and Wales. Even as I offenders will not be eligible for release until they have say this, knowing it is an official statistic, I cannot served two-thirds rather than half of their sentence. believe it. How have things come to this? How can any Anyone who kills a child of less than school age will be sort of effective service be delivered to so many people kept in prison for the rest of his or her life. Causing without vast resources? Why have the Government death by dangerous driving will attract a maximum imposed an arbitrary supervision period of 12 months, sentence of life imprisonment. Rapists and violent even for people who have been imprisoned for just a offenders will be sent to prison for longer. day? I am sure that considering all offenders for An acknowledged motive for these reforms is to supervision has to be of benefit, as my noble friend respond to what is perceived to be the views of members Lord McNally said. However, this arbitrary imposition of the public and, in particular, the victims of crime. has hit women prisoners particularly hard, because, as Victims of a wide variety of offences are to be given we know, they are subject to a disproportionate number the right to seek a review of sentences that they believe of shorter sentences, despite the damage that this does are over-lenient. All these proposed measures will to their children and the disruption it causes to their increase prison numbers, and the Government plan to often already chaotic lives. Surely, if a little thought create 10,000 new prison places to accommodate them. were given to the needs of each individual prisoner, I have connections with a charity now called Grit, and the period and the type of intervention tailored to formerly known as Youth at Risk, which aims to keep their individual needs, this would be a far more effective young people out of prison. Two others, Footsteps use of public money. Perhaps the Minister can give us and the St Giles Trust, aim to stop offenders reverting some good news that this will be under review. to crime after they have been released. I strongly The new proposals for probation are welcome, but I support the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord have a couple of questions for the Minister. CRCs Ramsbotham, for an independent commission that have been an unmitigated disaster, not least because will review the way we try to achieve these aims. But I the private for-profit model does not work in the area wish to explain, in the short time available, why I am of rehabilitation—perhaps because the interests of so dismayed by the Government’s proposals to put offenders are not the primary motivation for what more people in prison for longer. This echoes points CRCs do. We know that some subcontracting to outside made by the noble Lords, Lord Jay of Ewelme and organisations will be involved in delivering specialist Lord Beith. Anyone who has been following Channel 4’s services, but will the Minister confirm that these will admirable series,“Crime and Punishment”, will appreciate be mainly not-for-profit organisations rather than large the devastating consequences of lack of resources. for-profit companies such as G4S and Sodexo? There Over at least the last 30 years, I have witnessed is also concern about the very short lead-in period to admirable initiatives—for alternatives to custody, for the changes. Have we not learned yet that these sorts rehabilitation in prison and for helping those who of unnecessary additional challenges mean that we are come out of prison to avoid reoffending—foundering setting ourselves up to fail again? because of the lack of resources needed to implement Finally, I have a couple of questions for the Minister them. Keeping a man or woman locked up in prison from the Prison Reform Trust, about women victims now costs close to £40,000 a year. Prison numbers of domestic violence and coercion who land up in jail. should be kept to a minimum in order to free up I am delighted that the Domestic Abuse Bill had its resources for crime prevention and the effective Second Reading in the Commons yesterday and I wish rehabilitation of those who commit crimes. This means it speedy passage. But, in the context of this debate, we that sentences should be no longer than is necessary to need to acknowledge that many of the women who serve their purposes. land up in prison are victims of violence and intimidation. What are those purposes? Section 142 of the Criminal It is a year since the Female Offender Strategy was Justice Act 2003 provides the answers. They include published. So I ask the Minister, what steps are the protection of the public, deterrence, rehabilitation and Government taking to ensure that women offenders’ punishment. Violent men—they are almost always histories of victimisation are being considered, both in men—who would pose a real danger to the public if at prison and in the community? What support is being large, need to be detained, either in prison or in a given to women whose offending has been driven by a secure hospital if, as so often, their violence is due to coercive and abusive relationship? mental illness. But these cases must be identified on an That is a lot of questions, and I do not expect even individual basis, not by applying presumptions to all this excellent Minister to be able to answer them all who commit particular categories of offence. today—but a follow-up in writing would be greatly Making sentences longer does not normally increase appreciated. their deterrent effect. What deters is the likelihood of getting caught. If that is slight, the length of the potential sentence will have little effect. A childminder 3.06 pm who loses his self-control when kept awake by a screaming Lord Phillips of Worth Matravers (CB): My Lords, baby and shakes the baby to death will not act differently the delay to this debate in the name of the noble Lord, because he faces a lifetime rather than a mere 10 years Lord Ramsbotham, for which I join in thanking him, in prison. The Home Secretary has said that she wants 1837 Offender Management and Treatment[3 OCTOBER 2019] Offender Management and Treatment 1838 criminals to “literally feel terror” at the thought of I am going to leave my address at this stage and not breaking the law. It is wishful thinking to believe that add to it. I hope that what the noble Lord, Lord she can achieve this by making sentences longer. Ramsbotham, has said about the need for a strategy is In my lifetime, the length of sentences has steadily taken up by the Government. That strategy has to be crept up. A significant cause of this has been periodic carefully thought out and not delivered on the hoof by legislation that has constrained judges to impose minimum those who may not have the knowledge they should sentences for certain categories of offence.Such legislation have before making an announcement. inevitably results in some defendants being sentenced to longer than the particular circumstances of the crime warrant, and in a ratcheting-up of the sentencing 3.16 pm scale overall. I do not believe that the current government Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD): My Lords, policy of lengthening sentences reflects informed advice this has been a serious but, in many ways, profoundly that it will help rehabilitation or deter crime. The depressing debate—secured and introduced so ably by motive for it is to increase punishment in response to a the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, whom so many of perceived public demand for vengeance. Punishment us have thanked not only for this debate and his is a legitimate object of sentencing, but there is no contribution to it but for his consistent campaigning preordained scale that justice demands. The high cost on these issues over many years. of keeping defendants in prison to punish them has to This year’s reports of the Chief Inspectors of Prisons be borne by all of us. If this were met by a discrete and Probation are as depressing as any. Peter Clarke prison tax, I suspect that there would soon be a cry for reports on prisons: a reduction in the length of sentences. The Government “Far too many of our jails have been plagued by drugs, should be setting out to find the resources needed to violence, appalling living conditions and a lack of access to improve rehabilitation by reducing the scale of sentencing meaningful rehabilitative activity”. and the size of the prison population. If they pay any On self-harm, he reports: heed to the unanimous voice of this debate, they will think again. “Overall, levels of selfharm were disturbingly high and self-inflicted deaths tragically increased by nearly one-fifth on the previous year”. On prison conditions, he reports: 3.12 pm “As we have said in the past on many occasions, broken Lord Woolf (CB): My Lords, this debate has been windows, unscreened lavatories … vermin and filth should not of excellent quality. We have all learned a great deal feature in 21st century jails”. from what has been said in the speeches that preceded On rehabilitation, he reports: mine. That I, on this occasion, speak after the noble “In only a third of the adult male prisons that we inspected and learned Lord, Lord Phillips, is quite a novel was purposeful activity, which includes … education, work and experience for me because, throughout our respective training, judged to be good or reasonably good”. legal careers, he has followed me, rather than my Discouragingly, he also reported a poor response to following him. I very much have in mind what was said his recommendations, with the level of those achieved by another of my noble and learned friends, Lord falling below those not achieved for each of the last Judge, in an intervention before the debate: if you three years. agree with everything, there is something to be said for In her annual report on the probation service in sitting down and not detaining people merely by repetition. March, Dame Glenys Stacey described the provision I will bear that in mind in the remarks I make. of probation by the community rehabilitation companies I draw attention to my entries in register. I have as “sub-standard, and … demonstrably poor”. She been much involved in the prison scene since the noble described a, Lord, Lord Baker—who has here a while ago—received “deplorable diminution of the probation profession and a widespread my report into Strangeways prison. I made substantial move away from good probation practice”. recommendations in that report. One recommendation She said the model was “irredeemably flawed”. As was not, unlike the majority,accepted by the Government. pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, the It was that there should be a limit on the number of model has been largely abandoned, but without an people in prison. The reason I think it most unfortunate effective substitute in place. that that or a similar recommendation was not accepted was that nothing is more likely to undermine the The first challenge is to cut prison numbers. As is workings of a prison system than overcrowding, which well known, we imprison more of our population than has been a scourge of the prison system shortly after any other country in western Europe, a point made by my report and ever since. It explains why many of the the noble Lord, Lord Jay, and just reinforced by the things we have heard today have happened. This clearly noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf. We also have indicates that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, on very high reoffending rates following prison sentences. this as on many other occasions, was profoundly right That is particularly true of short sentences.The reoffending to have identified the problem of a lack of strategy rate for sentences of 12 months or less has climbed within the prison service. I hope that, on this occasion, to 64%. the noble Lord will be taken more seriously than he On IPP sentences, we fully support the call of the has been on too many occasions in the past. We noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under- require a Government who are prepared to do what is Heywood—and before him we remember Lord Lloyd needed to deal with the problem of which we all of Berwick—to end the continuing injustice to IPP should be ashamed. prisoners who have served well beyond their tariffs 1839 Offender Management and Treatment[LORDS] Offender Management and Treatment 1840

[LORD MARKS OF HENLEY-ON-THAMES] detention holds a solution. The solution lies in working and to reverse the burden of proof that they currently community sentences that incorporate the rehabilitative have to discharge to secure their release. help that he talked about. We have opposed proposals, now enacted, for More generally, we propose a co-ordinated approach mandatory custodial sentences for the possession of to arranging for prison and probation, as well as all knives and corrosive substances. Unlike the Government, the other services that offenders need if they are to we trust the judges, so judges must have discretion in escape from a cycle of repeated criminal behaviour. sentencing, particularly for young people. We cannot These include health—particularly mental health, as cut prison numbers without putting an end to sentence discussed by the noble Lord, Lord Bichard—and welfare inflation, legislative or otherwise, which costs large services; treatment for drug abuse and addiction; the sums of money, as my noble friend Lord Beith and the provision of housing, training and employment; and noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillips, have said. On involving the voluntary sector and private and public all the evidence, sentence inflation gives a nil return in sector employers. My noble friend Lord Dholakia reducing reoffending. dwelled on the important contribution that the voluntary We were achieving some cut-through in this area sector is keen to make but which has been underutilised before Mr Johnson’s election as Prime Minister. The to date. Government were starting to listen to the evidence on Local co-ordinating bodies would be established, prison numbers as well as on rehabilitation, prison funded by the Ministry of Justice but administered conditions and the failure of the probation services. locally, working from existing offices with small staffs, But back then we had David Lidington and then with a brief to consider the needs of each offender David Gauke as Justice Secretary and Rory Stewart as individually and commission all the services they need Prisons Minister, and we know what happened to while in custody, in preparation for release, on release them. from custody and in the course of community sentences. This Prime Minister says he will build more prisons The phrase “assertive outreach” used by the noble and lock more people up and for longer, pressing for Baroness, Lady Bottomley,describes well what is needed. longer sentences and cutting early release, as the noble Our reforms would help people leaving custody who Lord, Lord Phillips, described and, rightly, decried. are currently at high risk of returning to prison. The Prime Minister’s response is a populist one for his We address the particular needs of women in the party conference and the Daily Mail but it completely criminal justice system, which are often increased by ignores the evidence. His plans would increase crime, past trauma, as pointed out by the right reverend not reduce it. Prelate the Bishop of Gloucester and the noble Lord, We are rightly ashamed of the degrading conditions Lord Farmer, in line with the 2007 report of the noble of our prisons, well described by the noble Lord, Lord Baroness, Lady Corston, as recognised in the female Judd: overcrowded and still understaffed, pervaded by offender strategy and discussed by the noble Baronesses, extreme violence and widespread drug abuse, with Lady Armstrong and Lady Healy, and my noble friend inadequate care for mental health and drug addiction Lady Burt. Wealso address the needs of young offenders, issues and limited training and purposeful activity. seeking full implementation of the recommendations Prisoners, including women and young offenders, spend made in the 2016 review by Charlie Taylor, who gave far too long locked in their cells—often as much as us impressive evidence and now heads up the Youth 22 hours a day, as the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, Justice Board, following my noble friend Lord McNally, mentioned—with no regard for their well-being. It is a whose understanding, gleaned during his successful system where prisoners are discharged with £46, often and important work to help young offenders, shone on a Friday and often miles from home with no through his speech today. accommodation, services or source of help, and a We need a fresh approach to penal policy. We must system where the absurd denial of access to any form shrink prison numbers and humanise our prisons. We of IT prevents them applying for universal credit must concentrate on providing all the services that before release and pursuing training courses or seeking offenders need to support them in their rehabilitation housing or employment online. In our community in a comprehensive and co-ordinated way during custodial sentences, as Dame Glenys pointed out, the Government sentences, on release from custody and throughout have negligently allowed probation services to collapse, well-resourced and carefully implemented effective with CRCs’ contracts terminated early but with no community sentences. realistic plan to overhaul an underresourced and dysfunctional system, as my noble friend Lord Beith 3.26 pm said. My noble friend Lord German, who sadly cannot Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab): My Lords, I thank the noble be here, and I, ably assisted by many, including my Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for securing this important noble friend Lady Burt, after taking extensive evidence, debate. I particularly thank him for his opening speech including from some who have spoken today, have and the way in which he framed the debate today. produced a paper on rehabilitation called Turning Never,I think, has an opening speech been so universally Lives Around, which became party policy at our supported throughout the whole debate. conference. On cutting prison numbers, we propose a I have been listening with great interest to the mood presumption against sentences of 12 months or less, music on crime and justice coming out of the Conservative replacing them with effective and tough but sympathetic Party conference this week. It appears that the community sentences. I regret that I am unable to Government’s playlist is repeating the same old tune. agree with the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, that indeterminate The Justice Secretary announced that criminals will 1841 Offender Management and Treatment[3 OCTOBER 2019] Offender Management and Treatment 1842 serve two-thirds of their sentence before early release running prisons and probation services for profit simply can be considered; the Government reiterated their undermines offender management and treatment. That repackaged promise of 10,000 more prison places; and is why Labour is committed to preventing the creation the Home Secretary proclaimed, of any new prisons run for private profit and will “we stand against the criminals … We are coming after you”. campaign for probation to be fully returned to the public sector. More time, more prison places and being more hard- Rehabilitation depends on the relationship between line—the most outdated approach to criminal justice offenders and staff, especially prison and probation that I can think of. Unsurprisingly, there was nothing officers. However, cuts to officer numbers since 2010 about how the failed privatisation of probation and have caused a crisis in our prisons and probation prisons has undermined the management and treatment service, with staff morale and retention at rock bottom. of offenders; how meaningful reform has been stifled This could be addressed in many ways, such as boosting by cuts and uncertainty at the Ministry of Justice; how pay, conditions and professional standards, but the departmental spending has been slashed by over 40% Government are not interested in these options due to since 2010 under five Justice Secretaries in four years; the costs involved. how thousands of prison officers have been axed; and how the shortfall in mental health support for offenders Despite recent recruitment, there are still 2,000 fewer is fuelling a rise in suicide and self-harm in custody. prison officers than in 2010. Over 80,000 years of While the Home Secretary might be coming after experience have been lost, with 40% of prison officers criminals, government policy has been coming after now having less than three years’ experience. Does the the criminal justice system over the last nine years. Minister accept that offender management and treatment The guiding principle of offender management and are undermined by the declining number of prison treatment should be holistic rather than cost and officers? profit. Nothing demonstrates that better than the The latest figures from the Prison Service’s workforce Government’s failed privatisation of the probation showed a new record high for levels of prison violence service. In May 2019 the Government announced an against staff. The number of recorded assaults on embarrassing U-turn to reverse their disastrous probation prison staff in England and Wales increased last year reforms—reforms that the Public Accounts Committee by 21% to 10,213—a 260% rise since 2010. What are said had left the probation service in a worse position the Government doing to protect these dedicated public and which the National Audit Office found had wasted servants? at least £476 million of taxpayers’ money and failed to I cannot mention the treatment of offenders without reduce reoffending. touching on rising self-harm and suicide in the criminal The new model would return the supervision of all justice system. In the year leading up to June 2019, offenders in the community to the public sector. That there were 309 deaths in prison custody. Of these, is no small number,with over 250,000 offenders currently 86 deaths were self-inflicted—a 6% increase on the on probation, according to recent government figures. previous year. When the state takes away offenders’ This is a necessary first step in cleaning up the probation liberty, it has a special duty of care to keep them safe. mess but there are already concerns that it does not go These 86 deaths are testament to the state’s failure to far enough and could give too great a role to the discharge adequately its duty of care. These 86 people private sector. Some £280 million-worth of contracts should not have died. The prison system, the Ministry for rehabilitation services will be tendered each year to of Justice and the Government are responsible. It is private companies and voluntary organisations. Can shameful that in 2019, self-harm incidents in prisons the Minister confirm that companies currently failing are up 24% to a record high of 57,960, and women are to deliver private probation services will not be allowed 135% more likely than men to self-harm in prison. to bid for new contracts under the new probation A shortfall in mental health support for offenders model? serving community orders is fuelling this rise in suicide The management of offenders looks very different and self-harm. The Independent Advisory Panel on depending on whether prisons are run for profit. Private Deaths in Custody found that of the 75,750 community prisons are up to 47% more violent than public prisons orders made in 2018, fewer than 1% included a mental and far more likely to be overcrowded. Violence got so health treatment requirement. Prison should always out of hand at HMP Birmingham that the Government be a last resort—the state’s most severe sanction for had to step in and permanently take it back into serious offences. It should never be a substitute for public ownership from G4S. As soon as they did, extra failing mental health services, or for the withdrawal of prison officers were brought in and hundreds of prisoners funding from drug treatment centres. moved out. The Government must realise that they simply cannot Will the Government release staffing figures for the do justice on the cheap without recklessly exposing the remaining 13 private prisons managed by G4S, Serco public and staff to serious risk. Rehabilitation must be and Sodexo? How can we improve offender management at the heart of the management and treatment of when private prisons have no minimum staffing levels? offenders, through public probation, better staffing in Can the Minister rule out today prison contracts from prisons and mental health support. After the Conservative being any part of a post-Brexit trade deal? We must conference, I fear the Government remain a long way ensure that prisons are not exploited by US companies. off from this approach. The Government continue to defend their decision I have not commented on the various speeches to build more private prisons by arguing that all because, frankly, all 20 were substantially the same. opposition is simply ideological, but the truth is that They touched on different aspects, but the theme that 1843 Offender Management and Treatment[LORDS] Offender Management and Treatment 1844

[LORD TUNNICLIFFE] Service and community rehabilitation companies. This seems to me to run through them is that the service is will allow probation officers to be even more effective not fit for purpose. The number of people in prison at protecting the public, because we will see more is not a success. Locking people up is not a success—it efficient allocation of resources,more effective enforcement is a symptom of the failure of the Ministry of Justice of orders and closer supervision of offenders. to secure properly the right resources and enable the Most noble Lords mentioned rehabilitation. We probation service to help with rehabilitation and to will improve the range and quality of rehabilitative make non-custodial sentences more credible. I also interventions so these can better target the needs of believe it is a failure of society to look after the poor, offenders, including vulnerable offenders and those with the fragile and the mentally ill. The way to save money mental health and alcohol and substance abuse problems. is to have fewer people in prison. In the first place, get We intend to commission a significant percentage of them not to offend, through proper youth services, these services through a dynamic framework, which education and mental health facilities. We need a will enable us to engage directly with smaller providers national consensus that, in every area, we should including those from the voluntary and community support the young, the poor, the fragile and the unwell. sectors who can often provide a more tailored and locally responsive approach. 3.36 pm The Earl of Courtown (Con): My Lords, I join other Offenders also have contact with the probation noble Lords in thanking the noble Lord, Lord service in the weeks leading up to and following their Ramsbotham, for securing this debate. Many experts release from prison. We recognise the enormous in this field have contributed to the debate, and I importance of effective resettlement services in reducing assure noble Lords that I will draw it to the attention reoffending. Offenders can currently expect contact of the relevant Minister. from probation services 12 weeks before release, but Improving the management and treatment of offenders this will increase to seven or eight months before is a priority for the Government. The criminal justice release under the new model, giving much more time system must become more effective at rehabilitating for resettlement plans to be made. We will align offenders—a point made by many noble Lords—so arrangements, with new resources being assigned to that they do not go on to commit more crime and to the supervision of offenders in custody to ensure a create more victims of crime. Punishment and safe and planned transition from custody to community. rehabilitation are not opposites; we have to do both. As part of work across government to tackle rough We are working to reform and improve provision sleeping, something which was mentioned by many across both prison and the community. There are real noble Lords, we are investing £6.4 million in a pilot challenges for our system, but by investing in our scheme to support individuals released from three prisons, strengthening our probation system and taking prisons. Working with the voluntary sector,the pilots—as a whole-system approach to criminal justice, we can mentioned by the noble Lords, Lord Bichard and provide the right support for offenders and set them Lord Dholakia—will support low-risk male prisoners on a path towards rehabilitation. to access and sustain tenancies in private rented As noble Lords have commented, the Prime Minister accommodation. Individuals will receive wraparound has recently announced more resources for the criminal support and we will evaluate the pilots to inform plans justice system: 20,000 more police on our streets; for further rollout. 10,000 more prison places; £100 million for prison To manage and treat offenders effectively, we also security; and an extra £85 million for the Crown need to ensure our prisons are fundamentally safe and Prosecution Service.Noble Lords will therefore appreciate secure. That means preventing items from entering our that we take the management and treatment of offenders estate which undermine safety,security and rehabilitation, extremely seriously. including drugs, mobile phones and other contraband. I hope to address most of the important points that noble Lords have raised during the course of the The noble Lord, Lord Beith, and the noble and debate. If I do not cover them, I promise to write and learned Lord, Lord Phillips, also mentioned safety and place copies in the Library. security as well as overcrowding. Reducing overcrowding Noble Lords will have seen that we recently published is a top priority. There will be £2.5 billion of spending our response to last summer’s consultation on the on 10,000 new places and an extensive refurbishment future of probation services, Strengthening Probation, has been commissioned on decommissioned prison Building Confidence. That response sets out our plans places. A further £100 million will be spent on security, to build on the positive changes introduced by with airport-style X-ray scanners, for example, and Transforming Rehabilitation while addressing the key metal detectors at the gates. In August, the Prime challenges in the system. To deliver these arrangements, Minister announced a £100 million investment in prison we are ending community rehabilitation company security as part of a wider crackdown on crime behind contracts early in 2021 and streamlining responsibilities bars. This is the latest in a series of investments to for public, private and voluntary sector partners. Once increase security and stability in prisons, including a these arrangements are in place, I am confident that prior announcement of £70 million. we will improve the supervision and treatment of Alongside improvements to security, we are working offenders from first contact with probation to last. to ensure that our prisons have sufficient capacity. As I We are planning to bring all offender supervision mentioned, over the summer the Prime Minister under one organisation, moving away from the current announced that up to £2.5 billion will be spent on division of offenders between the National Probation creating 10,000 additional places. Our ambition is to 1845 Offender Management and Treatment[3 OCTOBER 2019] Offender Management and Treatment 1846 create a decent, safe and secure estate that is sustainable aimed at incentivising good behaviour and building into the future and provides better opportunities to positive relationships. To tackle the root causes of reform offenders. youth offending, we have introduced the first of our Being able to safely and securely hold those sentenced youth justice specialists in custody.Weare also expending to custody must be the first thing we get right in front-line staff capacity in public sector youth offender prisons, but we must also provide the right support institutions. At the end of March this year, the Youth and incentives to rehabilitate offenders, as a number of Custody Service had 348 more front-line officers than noble Lords mentioned. Our prison officers play a at the start of our reform programme, an increase of vital role in supporting and challenging offenders to 40%. In July, we were delighted to announce that the make the right choices. We have recruited more than Oasis Charitable Trust has been selected to operate 4,700 prison officers since October 2016, surpassing the first secure school in Medway, which will open our original target of 2,500 and returning us to in 2020. approximately the same level as in March 2012. This The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and the noble has enabled us to improve our support and case and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, both mentioned in management of prisoners, with the introduction of their speeches—it was a major point of the noble the new offender management in custody model to all Lord’s speech—the subject of an external review. It is male closed prisons. Each individual will be allocated a valuable point, but the whole system is under review. a prison officer to act as their key worker, who will We are making changes to probation services and guide, support and coach individuals through their investing in prisons. We have commissioned experts to custodial sentence. review areas, such as my noble friend Lord Farmer’s A number of noble Lords mentioned women in review on family ties. prison. We have developed a bespoke management approach for women which recognises the different The noble Lords, Lord Ramsbotham and Lord challenges and opportunities in the women’s estate. Beecham, also mentioned the fact that probation should The women’s policy framework mentioned by the noble be localised. Our probation reforms will create 12 new Baroness, Lady Burt, was published in 2018. It includes regional probation directors to ensure that services requirements to support women to find housing, manage reflect local needs and use local providers and that money and access education. Werecognise that women’s probation works more closely with police, courts and needs are different, and I commit to writing to the prisons. noble Baroness to give further details on the issues she A number of noble Lords mentioned issues relating raised. to mental health and violence in prisons and the As I mentioned, we are working to ensure that unacceptable levels of violence and self-harm. Staff prison offers meaningful opportunities for rehabilitation. are now undergoing revised training on suicide and The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Gloucester self-harm. This is a move in the right direction and, and the noble Lords, Lord Marks, Lord Beecham, hopefully, will have an effect in due course. Lord Beith and Lord Jay, all mentioned this issue. This The noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, and other noble year, we marked the first anniversary of the Education Lords mentioned the subject of universal credit and and Employment Strategy, which will ensure prison is what exactly prisoners can access. Offenders can access a place where offenders can develop the skills they a DWP work coach prior to their release. We will need to secure employment on release. We know that continue to work with the Department for Work and employment is one of the key factors that will determine Pensions on this issue. whether they reoffend. We are very thankful for my noble friend Lord The noble Lord, Lord Jay, talked about education Farmer’sreport on the importance of family engagement and employment. I can tell the noble Lord that additional to reduce reoffending. We are also grateful for his powers have been devolved to governors to give them second report, which focused on female offenders, and more control over their education budget so that they we are currently considering its recommendations. can target areas where required. Moving on to youth justice—mentioned by the The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Gloucester noble Lord, Lord McNally,who has extensive experience asked about funding for women’s centres in the new in this area—alongside the reforms to the adult custodial probation system. We are determined to ensure that estate, we are committed to improving the safety and the probation service does meet the needs of women. life chances of children in custody. This is the reason Women’s centres are a non-negotiable part of the why we began a youth justice reform programme in answer. The right reverend Prelate also mentioned the 2017, investing in staff, education and, as mentioned concordat, which we are looking to publish in the next by the noble Lord, Lord Judd, psychological services few months. As far as housing and homelessness for as well. It is so important to get these things right for women is concerned, this is subject to evaluation but these young people. our homelessness pilot will be rolled out and can be The noble Lord, Lord McNally, raised the subject delivered for any offender, including women. of sport in prison, and I thank him for doing so. We The noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton- have increased the number of PE staff: there are under-Heywood, mentioned IPPs, which have been 40 football clubs delivering coaching qualifications, covered numerous times in this House over recent and 15% of prisons participate in parkrun. years. Public protection must remain our priority. At The Youth Custody Service has started implementing the moment, there are no plans to change the release a new evidence-based behaviour management strategy, test or recall system, as it is applied to IPP prisoners. 1847 Offender Management and Treatment[LORDS] Brexit: Negotiations 1848

[THE EARL OF COURTOWN] by the Treasury and how much money they had passed The noble Lord, Lord Bichard, and the noble Baroness, on to the prison service. I said, “That’s not what I Lady Healy, also spoke about levels of violence in meant. How much would it cost to do all the things prisons. Violence levels are too high, and violence that Ministers say would, should and could be done against staff will not be tolerated. The Assaults on with prisoners?”. I do not believe that anyone knows Emergency Workers (Offences) Act increases the penalty that cost, nor do they know what it would cost to do to 12 months; prison officers are included as emergency all the things that are said should be done by probation. workers. Until and unless we know that cost, we cannot know The noble Baroness, Lady Healy, and the noble and what cannot be done. That is a very important issue. learned Lord, Lord Phillips, also mentioned sentencing. I mention to my noble friend Lord Bichard the My right honourable friend the Prime Minister has shock with which the 1998 Office for National Statistics announced an urgent review to break the reoffending psychiatric morbidity statistics in prison were greeted cycle. We have announced our intention to carry out when they were suddenly published. That was 20 years legislative reform, including reforms to community ago. I just remind the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, of the penalties, which will offer the appropriate level of Scandinavian system, where sentencers award sentences punishment while tackling the underlying causes of that include certain targets. If a prisoner has got reoffending. through all the targets set, the governor can take the The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, asked about prisoner back to the court and ask for them to be disability awareness training for staff. This is an important released on licence. point, and I can reassure the noble Baroness that all The last person I mention is my noble and learned officers receive broad equalities training over a number friend Lord Woolf, who agreed with me that above all of different modules. we must have a strategy. Without a strategy we are The noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillips, also going nowhere. spoke about how the voluntary sector can help. We want to see a clearer role for voluntary providers in Motion agreed. probation delivery. The National Probation Service will in the future be able to directly commission services Brexit: Negotiations which encourage participation of smaller suppliers Statement and, as I mentioned before, address the needs of local areas. 3.58 pm I close by thanking again the noble Lord, Lord The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Ramsbotham, and all those who have raised important Park) (Con): My Lords, with the leave of the House, I issues in this debate. Getting the supervision and shall now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable treatment of offenders right is absolutely vital, both friend the Prime Minister in another place. The Statement for their benefit and to prevent reoffending leading to is as follows: further victims. Taken together, the measures I have outlined will ensure that we are best supporting offenders “With permission, Mr Speaker, I shall make a to turn their lives around, whether that is in prison, Statement on the Government’s proposals for a new youth custody or the community. agreement with our European friends that would honour the result of the referendum and deliver Brexit on 3.54 pm 31 October in an orderly way, with a deal. This Government’s objective has always been to leave with Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I thank everyone a deal and these constructive and reasonable proposals who has contributed to this debate, which, if I might show our seriousness of purpose. They do not deliver say, summed up the House at its very best. I am everything we would have wished. They do represent a particularly grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Marks, compromise. But to remain a prisoner of existing for summing up so many of the contributions, which positions is to become a cause of deadlock rather than all mounted up to believing that all is not well with the breakthrough. So we have made a genuine attempt to management and treatment of offenders in prisons bridge the chasm, to reconcile the apparently irreconcilable and in the community. I also thank the noble Earl and to go the extra mile as time runs short. for standing in for the noble and learned Lord, Our starting point is that this House promised to Lord Keen. I was very glad that he agreed to take back respect the referendum before the vote. More people much of what was said to the relevant Ministers, voted to leave than voted for any political party in our particularly the Secretary of State. history. The referendum must be respected. Both main I will pick out and comment on six speeches. I am parties promised at the 2017 election that they would very grateful to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop respect the referendum and there would be no second of Gloucester and others for including issues surrounding referendum. This House voted to trigger Article 50 women, which I neglected to add to my opening and has voted repeatedly to leave. Yet it also voted remarks. I am particularly grateful to my noble and three times against the previous withdrawal agreement learned friend Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood and for repeated delay. And so, as I have emphasised for mentioning the IPPs, which I similarly omitted. time and again, there can be no path to a deal except The noble Lord, Lord Beith, mentioned the cost of by reopening the withdrawal agreement and replacing imprisonment. I asked what the cost of imprisonment the so-called backstop. was on my first day as chief inspector. A Home Office While, as I stand here today, we are some way from official told me how much money they had been given a resolution, it is to the credit of our European friends 1849 Brexit: Negotiations [3 OCTOBER 2019] Brexit: Negotiations 1850 that they have accepted the need to address these growth and competitiveness and set in train new issues. I welcome the constructive calls that I have had infrastructure, particularly with a cross-border focus. over the last 24 hours, including with President Juncker, The previous withdrawal agreement and political Chancellor Merkel and Taoiseach Varadkar, and the declaration would have permanently anchored the statement from President Juncker that the Commission United Kingdom within the orbit of EU regulation will now examine the legal text objectively. and customs arrangements. An indefinite so-called The essence of our new proposal is a new protocol backstop provided a bridge to that vision of the on Ireland and Northern Ireland consisting of five future. This Government have a different vision, basing elements. In the first place, all our actions are based on our future relationship with our European neighbours our shared determination to sustain the Belfast Good on a free trade agreement and allowing the UK to take Friday agreement—the fundamental basis of governance back control of our trade policy and our regulations. in Northern Ireland—the protection of which is the We propose to amend the political declaration to highest priority of all. From this follows the second reflect this ambition. Our proposals should now provide principle; namely, that we shall of course uphold all the basis for rapid negotiations towards a solution in the long-standing areas of co-operation between the the short time that remains. UK and our friends in Ireland, including the rights of I do not for one moment resile from the fact that we all those living in Northern Ireland, north/south have shown great flexibility, in the interests of reaching co-operation, and the common travel area, which predates an accommodation with our European friends and both the and the European achieving the resolution for which we all yearn. If our Union itself. European neighbours choose not to show a corresponding Thirdly, we propose the potential creation of a willingness to reach a deal, then we shall have to leave regulatory zone on the island of Ireland covering all on 31 October without an agreement, and we are goods, including agri-food. For as long as it exists, this ready to do so. But that outcome would be a failure of zone would eliminate all regulatory checks for trade in statecraft for which all parties would be held responsible. goods between Ireland and Northern Ireland. But, When I think of the conflicts that have wracked Europe fourthly, unlike the so-called backstop, such a regulatory in the past, of the immense challenges that we have zone would be sustained with the consent of the surmounted, of the 74 years of peace and prosperity people of Northern Ireland, as expressed through the that we have together achieved, I believe that surely we Assembly and Executive. They will give their consent can summon the collective will to reach a new agreement. during the transition period as a condition for these This Government have moved. Our proposals do arrangements entering into force.Thereafter,the Assembly represent a compromise, and I hope that the House will vote again every four years. If consent were withheld, can now come together in the national interest behind these arrangements would then lapse after one year. this new deal, to open a new chapter of friendship with our European neighbours and move on to our Fifthly, it has always been a point of principle for domestic priorities, including education, infrastructure this Government that, at the end of the transition and our NHS. So let us seize this moment to honour period, the UK should leave the EU customs union our overriding promise to the British people, respect whole and entire, restoring sovereign control over our Brexit and get Brexit done. I commend this Statement trade policy and opening the way for free trade deals to the House”. with all our friends around the world. That is a fundamental point for us. So, under the proposals in My Lords, that concludes the Statement. this new protocol, Northern Ireland will be fully part of the UK customs territory and not the EU customs 4.05 pm union, but there will be no need for checks—or any infrastructure—at or near the border between Ireland Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab): My Lords, I first and Northern Ireland. Indeed, I have already given a thank the noble Baroness for repeating the Statement. guarantee that the UK Government will never conduct I think that most of us listened carefully to what the checks at the border, and we believe that the EU Prime Minister has said today. The Statement was should do the same, so there is absolute clarity on this very different in tone to what we heard last Wednesday, point. so hopefully her entreaties to the Prime Minister had some impact. Instead, under this new protocol, all customs checks between Northern Ireland and Ireland would take When the Prime Minister took office in July, we place either electronically or, in the small number of were promised a fresh approach to Brexit, and that, cases where physical checks would be necessary, they despite actions suggesting the opposite, the Government would happen at traders’ premises or other points in really wanted to strike a deal with the EU. Having the supply chain. We have put forward a method for patiently awaited the result of the Conservative Party achieving this, based on improving and simplifying leadership contest, our EU partners were promised existing rules, trusting certain traders and strengthening certainty by Mr Johnson. The de facto Deputy Prime our co-operation with Ireland, in a spirit of friendship Minister, Mr Gove, tells us that the new Cabinet Brexit and sensitivity to the particular circumstances. While sub-committee has had dozens of meetings over the these proposals will mean changes from the situation summer, leading to a new plan for the Irish border that prevails today in Ireland and Northern Ireland, it being drawn up and dispatched to Brussels. is their driving purpose to minimise any disruption. In It is perfectly legitimate for the new Prime Minister order to support the transition further we propose a to want to put his own plans to Brussels. In doing so, new deal for Northern Ireland, which will boost economic however, he would have been conscious that the Article 1851 Brexit: Negotiations [LORDS] Brexit: Negotiations 1852

[BARONESS SMITH OF BASILDON] UK customs officials able to inspect premises in the 50 process was designed to take two years—not just Republic and vice versa—because that is how Norway/ the two weeks before the last European Council summit— Sweden works? for good reason. It was unfortunate that his advisers The use of electronic submissions for trusted traders briefed the media that this would be a take-it-or-leave-it is surely part of the solution, but I am slightly concerned offer. Thankfully the tone has shifted to something that the clue is in the name—it works only for “trusted” much more conciliatory. We welcome that. traders. What would the criteria be for a “trusted Wemust, however,face facts. Despite being welcomed trader”under the new scheme? How do the Government by the DUP—I am sorry that our DUP colleagues are envisage dealing with irregular traders,or those attempting not here today for the Statement—the plan has been to smuggle goods across the border, particularly if the dismissed by all the other major political parties in UK ends up not participating in EU-wide intelligence Northern Ireland, as well by manufacturing and retail and data-sharing schemes? Is the Prime Minister confident bodies. Retail NI’s Glyn Roberts said that the proposal that his answer to that will reassure the EU 27 with was “worse than no deal”. Trevor Lockhart, the group regard to upholding the integrity of the single market? chief executive of an agri-foods business, said on this Key to the plans is the inclusion of agri-food, a morning’s “Today” programme: sector that relies heavily on cross-border trade, in a “It is ultimately a balance between what works politically and single regulatory area across the island of Ireland. Has what works economically. The UK backstop, for us, delivered the Lord Privy Seal had an opportunity to reflect on economically but clearly did not work politically, and in the the comments of the Food and Drink Federation, pursuit of getting a political solution the interests of businesses in which last night said that, Northern Ireland to some extent have now been sacrificed”. “these proposals don’t work for shoppers and consumers. That’s Those are harsh words. For a plan centred on the because they ask food and drink businesses operating in Northern principle of consent, there appears to be little consent Ireland to pay—through new bureaucracy and costs—for the for it. Government’s inability to agree a comprehensive exit deal”? Last night the noble Lord, Lord Empey, powerfully Such concerns have been echoed by a variety of retail made the point that the Government were reneging on organisations across Northern Ireland and the Republic. their commitment not to have a border down the Irish On these Benches, we are extremely worried by the Sea. Like him, I struggle to understand the position of Government’s insistence that there is, the DUP, as that party has opposed a border in the “no need for … extensive level playing field arrangements”, Irish Sea since the very start of the Brexit process. in the withdrawal agreement. The Leader of the House Those in the know told us to watch out for the and the Minister sitting next to her will have heard the reaction from the EU 27. No news would be good debates over the past couple of years in your Lordships’ news; it would mean talks were going into the tunnel House, and they will understand that what has been for further discussion, and a deal was possible. Anything spoken about is more than mere customs procedures. more than a basic acknowledgement of receipt would Such arrangements cover social, employment and spell trouble. What, then, was the verdict? The Taoiseach environmental standards, which completely underpin warns that the texts tabled, the contents of the political declaration. Can the “do not fully meet the agreed objective of the backstop”. Leader confirm whether the Government wish now to amend the political declaration? If so, have they prepared The President of the Commission, while welcoming a a new text? Do they believe that it is feasible to secure degree of clarity about the UK’s intentions, noted substantial changes to and ratify—including passing several “problematic points”. The ’s the withdrawal agreement Bill through both Houses—the Brexit steering group was less than enthusiastic, and withdrawal agreement and political declaration in the that institution, which has to ratify any agreement, has time available over the next two to four weeks? already signalled that it will not support a deal without a backstop. Simon Coveney, the Foreign Minister of the Republic of Ireland, has indicated that if this were the final As I noted earlier, now that the party conference offer, the outcome on 31 October would be a no-deal season is over, the Prime Minister appears to be exit. However, the Prime Minister has toned down his approaching matters differently. I hope that talks will rhetoric since the Conservative Party conference and continue and progress will be made. However, given has talked about this being a “broad landing zone” for the leaked and very unwise memo calling on Conservative a deal, with the Government prepared for further MPs to call the EU “crazy” if it rejects such a plan, it discussions and further concessions. However, the fact is vital that these talks take place in good faith. remains that time is tight if Boris Johnson and his So let us look briefly at the issues with the proposals. advisers stick to their “31 October or die-in-a-ditch” Despite warm words from the Government on the mantra. The fact is that the withdrawal Act No. 2 is a Good Friday agreement, it is not clear that this lifeline for the Government. It is an irony that the arrangement would uphold the UK’s commitments. Prime Minister’s best chance of securing deal is an Act The plans talk of a limited number of physical inspections that he has opposed and done nothing but attack. taking place away from the border at the premises of Noble Lords will recall that exactly this scenario producers, or perhaps further down the supply chain. was envisaged during our earlier debates on the first I listened carefully to what the noble Baroness said, withdrawal Bill. We argued that it would be wrong to but is she able to confirm what arrangements are tie the Government’s hands if they were close to a deal envisaged for such checks? Would the system operate but running out of time because of an inflexible exit in the same way as the Sweden/Norway border, with date. The Prime Minister says in his Statement that, 1853 Brexit: Negotiations [3 OCTOBER 2019] Brexit: Negotiations 1854

“we are some way from a resolution”. I note his words, “at the border”, but if one looks at The extension legislated for in the most recent withdrawal Section 10(2)(b) of the 2018 Act, it refers to creating Act gives the Prime Minister the flexibility he needs if or facilitating, he genuinely wants to get that deal over the line. “border arrangements between Northern Ireland and the Republic Therefore, given that the Prime Minister feels that his of Ireland after exit day which feature physical infrastructure, proposal is the basis for further talks, does the Leader including border posts, or checks and controls, that did not exist also accept that that is what he is suggesting? If a before exit day and are not in accordance with an agreement version of this proposal is agreed with the EU, are the between the United Kingdom and the EU”. Government confident that the necessary systems can I believe there is a difference between “at the border” be put in place during the transition period ending in and border arrangements; customs arrangements are December 2020? What are the Government doing to by their very nature border arrangements. Can the ensure, and is the Leader confident, that Stormont Minister confirm that the proposals put forward by will be sitting by then? the Prime Minister conform with the provision, given the clear indication in his Statement that checks could take place at designated locations anywhere in Ireland Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD): My Lords, I too and Northern Ireland? thank the Leader of the House for repeating a Statement The Statement referred to the, that was written in much more measured tones than the one she was required to read last week. It is thanks “potential creation of an all-island regulatory zone on the island to the purported Prorogation having been nullified of Ireland, covering all goods.” that Parliament can now hold the Government to It goes on to say that it would eliminate, account on this important development. It is worth “all regulatory checks for trade in goods between Ireland and reflecting that if that had not happened, these important Northern Ireland”. proposals would have been brought forward without So, of course, there would be checks between Northern Parliament being in session to examine them. Ireland and Great Britain. Will the Minister indicate It is important that we examine these proposals, whether this would be a two-way process? The Prime and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, has asked a Minister, I understand, seemed to indicate in a reply number of detailed questions on their application and that it would be only one way: for goods coming from how it is proposed that the arrangements will work. It Great Britain into Northern Ireland. Surely, however, appears that, from having no borders as a full member if Great Britain has higher regulatory standards than of the European Union, the Prime Minister’s proposals the European Union, there would be checks for goods would give Northern Ireland two borders. Does the coming from Northern Ireland into Great Britain. Minister believe that these proposals are better for the Can she confirm whether that would indeed be the economy and, above all, for the security of Northern case, or is the Government’s working assumption that Ireland than what Northern Ireland has at present? It there will never be situations where the regulatory is important, too, that we closely examine the proposal regime in Great Britain would be more stringent than of a “potential”— the word is there in all the that in the European Union? Have the Government documents—regulatory border between Great Britain had any discussions with the Scottish Government as and Northern Ireland and customs checks between to the implications of this proposal for any infrastructure Northern Ireland and Ireland. Simply to state that required for such checks at Cairnryan? position must surely suggest that Northern Ireland’s The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, referred to the economy would be in a worse position. powerful speech yesterday evening by the noble Lord, The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, quoted a number Lord Empey,who wondered how the DUP could possibly of businesses that have expressed considerable scepticism sign up to it. He gave various quotes at col. 1744, about the proposals. The Northern Ireland Chamber quoting DUP spokespersons opposed to any form of of Commerce and Industry said: regulatory divergence. Why would they? Maybe the “Businesses are telling us that the potential increased costs secret is that the answer is in the word “potential”, if it will seriously damage … supply lines and indeed business survival.” is read in conjunction with the consent arrangements, There are other quotes that could be repeated from which in the explanatory note provided, refer to consent, spokespersons who have cast doubt on the workability “within the framework set by the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement”. and cost of these proposals. It would be interesting to see whether the Minister, when she comes to reply, can There are people in your Lordships’ House who are quote any business or business organisation which, in far more expert in the intricacies of the Good Friday the last 24 hours, has given support to these proposals. agreement and the procedures in the Northern Ireland The proposals depend on electronic and, in some Assembly than I am—I am conscious that my noble cases, physical checks—possibly on business premises. friend Lord Alderdice is behind me—but I understand What estimate have the Government made of these there is a procedure called a petition of concern. Is it added costs to businesses as a consequence of such possible that a petition of concern could be used to additional surveillance? ensure that these arrangements never take place, and Last night, in response to a point that has been could be vetoed by the DUP and others before they raised on a number of occasions, the noble Lord, Lord ever had a chance to take off? Does the Minister think Callanan, said that the proposals did not breach Section that that enhances the chances of this arrangement 10(2)(b) of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act being agreed to, not only by the Government of Ireland 2018, but by the European Union? “because they avoid checks, controls and physical infrastructure The Written Statement laid by the noble Lord, at the border”.—[Official Report, 2/10/19; col. 1765.] Lord Callanan, yesterday and reflected in the Prime 1855 Brexit: Negotiations [LORDS] Brexit: Negotiations 1856

[LORD WALLACE OF TANKERNESS] The noble Baroness and the noble and learned Minister’s Statement, refers to a revised political Lord talked about the political declaration. Yes, we declaration. The Statement says: are in negotiations on changes to that. Those negotiations “In parallel, we will be negotiating a revised Political Declaration are ongoing and as soon as we are in a position to give which reflect this Government’sultimate goal of a future relationship further details on them, we will of course do so. I am with the EU that has a comprehensive Free Trade Agreement at happy to reassure them both that we are committed to its heart”. strong standards in the areas of environmental protections While there is a lot of detail on the arrangements with and workers’ rights, as the noble Baroness set out. We Ireland, there is very little detail on what arrangements have an excellent record in this country in these areas. or provisions are sought for the political declaration. There are numerous examples of where we exceed It would be helpful if the Minister, when she comes to EU minima, such as on the length of maternity leave, reply, would indicate what provisions are proposed. shared parental leave, holiday entitlement and greenhouse Does it mean that the reassurances we had in times gas targets. As I hope we have made clear continually past about maintaining workers’rights and environmental at this Dispatch Box, we as a Government intend not protections may no longer be the case? only to maintain existing standards but to improve The Statement from the Prime Minister also says: them. We will continue to hold this path. “If our European neighbours choose not to show a corresponding The noble Baroness and the noble and learned willingness to reach a deal, then we shall have to leave on 31st October without an agreement and we are ready to do so”. Lord are right that these proposals will mean changes from the situation that prevails today—this was reflected The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, has already indicated in the Statement—but our driving purpose is to ensure how the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 2) Act that we minimise disruption. Weunderstand the concerns might come to the assistance of the Government, but of business. The noble Baroness mentioned concerns assuming this agreement does not pass, and that the that have been raised. We will be talking in detail to House of Commons does not agree to no deal, can the businesses about the proposals, explaining why we Minister indicate in detail how the Prime Minister can believe there will be minimum disruption and making state that in these circumstances, we shall have to leave sure that their concerns are allayed. Part of the way in on 31 October without an agreement consistent with which we will do this is through our new deal for the provisions of that Act? Northern Ireland. We will be making commitments to Obviously, an orderly departure from the European help boost economic growth and competitiveness, and Union is preferable to a disorderly one. However, we to support infrastructure projects—particularly with on these Benches do not believe there is any agreement a cross-border focus—so that we can work with our that can be reached which gives us a better deal, in Irish partners as well to ensure that businesses and terms of our security, our prosperity, our trade, our consumers across the island of Ireland are happy with jobs, or the future opportunities for our young people what we are planning. than the deal we have at present, as full members of the European Union. That applies to the United Kingdom A limited number of goods movements will undergo as a whole and to Northern Ireland in particular. physical inspections or checks. The system will largely be decentralised. It will be facilitated and minimised by the use of solutions such as electronic filing. We Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: I thank the noble expect there to be a very small number of physical Baroness and the noble and learned Lord for their checks needed. These will be conducted at traders’ comments. I reiterate once again that we are committed premises or other points in the supply chain. For to and focused on getting a deal, which is why we have instance, the UK currently checks around 4% of customs brought forward these new proposals. I also remind declarations, with fewer than 1% of these checks being noble Lords, who will be aware of this, that the House physical in nature. This reflects our robust pre-clearance of Commons has rejected the previous withdrawal processes which involve the de-risking of high-risk agreement three times; therefore, to get a deal, we have traders and commodities. Our future system will be had to come forward with new proposals. underpinned by continuing close co-operation between UK and Irish authorities, based on the existing customs I reassure the noble Baroness that she is absolutely legislations of both parties. It is our intention to make right: we believe that these proposals set out a reasonable a series of simplifications and improvements to that compromise and that they are a broad landing zone in legislation to ensure that the commitment in the new which a deal can take shape. We are pleased that our protocol to having no checks or infrastructure at the European colleagues have said that they will look at border is fulfilled. these proposals. Detailed discussions will now have to take place on them. I can reassure her that David The noble Baroness asked, for instance, about trusted Frost, the Prime Minister’s lead negotiator, is back in traders. One of the ideas put forward is a special Brussels today. Intensive talks will be ongoing and we provision for small traders to ensure that requirements look forward to continuing them to ensure we can get on them could be simplified. For instance, some small a deal that everybody is happy with. We are committed traders could be exempt from processes and paying to supporting the all-Ireland economy by avoiding duty altogether. These measures would need to be checks and infrastructure at the border between Northern carefully designed so that they target the traders most Ireland and Ireland, keeping Northern Ireland in the in need of support, while continuing to ensure compliance. same customs territory as Great Britain and ensuring unfettered access for Northern Irish farmers and businesses The noble and learned Lord asked about Section 10 to the UK. of the withdrawal Act. As my noble friend said yesterday, 1857 Brexit: Negotiations [3 OCTOBER 2019] Brexit: Negotiations 1858 we believe that our proposals do not breach this certainly every Labour MP—to vote against it to provision but conform to it. protect the peace process and progress on the island of I can absolutely reassure the House that we are Ireland. working very hard to get the Northern Ireland Executive back up and running. I think all of us in this House have been frustrated and disappointed about the lack Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: I fear I cannot agree of progress seen. I can reiterate only that this is an with the noble Lord’s assessment. We want a deal. We absolute priority and we are working extremely hard believe that a deal is in our best interests and also, to ensure that it happens. frankly, those of Ireland and Northern Ireland. That is why we are working hard towards it. We made very The issue of consent was also raised. The exact clear—the Statement made clear, I hope—that our mechanism for consent will be discussed as part of proposal is centred on our commitment to find solutions these negotiations but in the context of the Good compatible with the Belfast agreement. We believe it Friday agreement. We want to achieve the satisfaction is. We will work very hard and do everything we can to of both communities in Northern Ireland. This is at minimise disruption. We have made compromises. We the heart of what we look to do. We very much hope now want to work with the EU to discuss further how that these proposals will lead to a further, new and to ensure that we come forward with a proposal which intense way in which we can move forward, so that we can get through the other place and means that we can can present a Bill to the other place which can get move on and work together for a strong future relationship. through. Then we can move on and get a deal. I fear that I do not accept the noble Lord’s view of the proposals. They have been well thought through. We 4.28 pm think that they address some of the key issues that Lord Judge (CB): My Lords, I welcome any step, have been a problem so far and we will be working however tentative, which might possibly produce a very hard to advance them. resolution. Would the Leader of the House be in a position to clarify the intention of the Government if Lord Lamont of Lerwick (Con): My Lords, I welcome the EU—and I use it compendiously—were very interested this carefully crafted compromise and hope that it will in these proposals but asked for more time, say one receive serious consideration, because we need to secure month, to consider them? a deal. Are not the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, mistaken in Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: As I said, I am saying that there is no border? There is a border afraid that I will not prejudge the outcome of the between the north and south of Ireland. There are negotiations. Our aim is clear: we want to conclude checks, for example, on VAT on both sides of that these negotiations quickly, so that we can have an border. They are done not at the border but away from agreement at the EU Council this month and progress it. Is it not also wrong to conflate a customs declaration to leave the EU on 31 October. That is our very firm with physical examinations? They are completely different. intention; it is where our focus is and what we are Can my noble friend confirm what the Prime Minister working towards. With willingness and compromise said in the House of Commons: no physical infrastructure on both sides—it will require compromise on both will be required by these changes? sides; we accept and understand that we still have a way to go, but we believe that the will is there—that is Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: I thank my noble what we will be focused on and working very hard friend for his comments. He is absolutely right. We towards. have been very clear that there will be no further infrastructure—there will be no hard border within Lord Hain (Lab): My Lords, why do not the Ireland. Any changes to process that happen, will, we Government listen to hauliers, businesspeople, trade believe, be very minor. We will do everything we can to unions and every Northern Ireland political party ensure that. That is why we will be working hard with except the DUP—including the Ulster Unionists and Northern Irish and Irish businesses further to explain the cross-party Alliance Party—who all oppose this our proposals to ensure that they understand that we proposal, which undermines the all-Ireland economy intend absolutely to minimise any disruption. We all and betrays the Good Friday and Belfast agreement? want to achieve a deal that will work in the best Surely the noble Baroness must accept that the customs interests of the island of Ireland. border proposed is unworkable because there are no enforcement measures, leaving it wide open to smuggling The Earl of Kinnoull (Non-Afl): My Lords, the EU and criminality. It is a virtual hard border, not a Select Committee intends to hold a public evidence physical hard border. How could Brussels enforce its session next Tuesday morning, based on the documents own rules, except by erecting infrastructure for security delivered yesterday. In preparation for that, I wonder and checks on this external frontier of the European whether the noble Baroness the Leader could give us a Union, at least to obey World Trade Organization bit more help on the matter of consent. I should be rules? Surely this is the worst of both worlds: customs grateful for clarification of two issues. First, the Assembly clearance centres and arrangements, including tariffs, has not sat since January 2017. There must therefore that would be a target for civil disobedience and, be a risk that at some point during a future consent perhaps, paramilitary attack, a border that is not even process, it may again not be sitting. Can she tell us secure, and a shift from no borders to up to four how, if it is not sitting, the consent process works and borders. I appeal to every Member of Parliament— what is the default position? Secondly,this time assuming 1859 Brexit: Negotiations [LORDS] Brexit: Negotiations 1860

[THE EARL OF KINNOULL] will be recreated and give its consent—then there are that the Assembly is sitting, it has special rules for four years before the issue comes up again, then a cross-community consent. How will those rules apply? lapse of a year if, at the end of the four years, there is a vote for a change or it has not worked. Surely the Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: The principle behind enormous ingenuity of the people of Ulster, Northern the consent is that we believe any alignment with EU Ireland, and the tremendous dynamism and creativity law in Northern Ireland must depend on the consent of modern Dublin and the modern Republic are between of those affected by it, which is why we believe this is them capable, over all those years, of producing workable an important element. As I said in my response to the solutions in the modern world. Should we not put the opening questions, obviously the exact mechanisms concept of time a bit more into this before rushing to will need to involve a discussion between us, Ireland judgments? and representatives of the communities in Northern Ireland. We are absolutely clear—I hope this was Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: I thank my noble made clear in my responses to an earlier question—that friend for his more optimistic outlook. He is absolutely this must be done to the satisfaction of both communities right: our proposal is that before the end of the transition in Northern Ireland. The details of this are something period, then for every four years after that, the UK we will need to talk about with our Irish colleagues will provide an opportunity for democratic consent in and across the Province of Northern Ireland over the the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive for the coming days. regulatory alignment arrangements,within the framework set out in the Good Friday agreement. Lord Rooker (Lab): My Lords, listening to the My noble friend is also absolutely right that the exchanges in the other place, I was struck that the reason we have brought forward these new proposals really important question from Lady Hermon was not and will be working incredibly hard over the coming actually answered. I put to the noble Baroness this weeks is that we need to get agreement in the other question, which in effect follows on from the one she place to support them, which we have not managed to was just asked but has not answered: can she explain do with the backstop in its current state. That is an the difference between a coalition Executive and a absolute priority for us. We very much hope that power-sharing Executive, in the context of Northern through further discussions and negotiations across Ireland, with respect to this Statement? all parties and all Benches, both in this House and the other place, we can get to a point where we can get a Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: I am afraid the deal and move on to start talking about the positive noble Lord will not be happy, but I cannot say more relationship we want with the EU. That is what we all than I have said. Some of the details of the exact want to be talking about, and it feels as if it is time we mechanisms will be open to discussion. I will not really tried to get on to that, so that we can move on. pre-empt negotiations or discussions and do not think it would help the process if I did. I am sorry I cannot Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top (Lab): My Lords, say any more to the noble Lord. do the Government recognise that consent is a tricky issue because the DUP does not represent the whole of Lord Howell of Guildford (Con): My Lords, having the unionist community? Many unionists voted to taken part in the original power-sharing agreement in remain and would certainly want to be in the single the 1970s, I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, that market and customs union in any future agreement. I these differences are extremely hard to disentangle in remain very concerned that the Government seem to the atmosphere of Irish politics—but it is a pertinent see one side of the story in Northern Ireland as question and I see why he is asking it. represented by only the DUP. It is simply not true. I welcome this protocol very warmly indeed. I was a Regarding the regulation of goods—as opposed to bit depressed by the question from the noble Lord, customs—the Government’s explanatory note says that Lord Hain, which seemed very negative, but I thought these arrangements must receive the endorsement of his own Front Bench sounded a shade less negative. I the Northern Ireland Assembly. We have already had do not know whether I am reading too much optimism questions about what happens if that is not there, and into the situation. That is the big question: where are I realise that the Minister is not able to respond. If the Opposition on this matter? Will they support the they are meant to receive the endorsement of the protocol and the deal? The Government do not have a Assembly and Executive, Paragraph 13 of the paper stable majority in the House of Commons. The position states that that should happen before the end of transition of the Opposition is absolutely crucial, so let us please period and every four years thereafter. have an answer to that question: will they support it or What happens if they do not give consent? What not? We know that the Lib Dems, of course, are will then be the position? Do we revert to what we against it all because they do not want this to happen have now—common regulations—or is the reversion at all. They want some other course, which I cannot to the hard border, which differs absolutely from what quite fathom but which certainly would not benefit the most people in Northern Ireland voted for? national interest of this country. Is not one of the missing factors in all this the Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: I once again reiterate: concept of time? Time is a great solvent. As I understand we have made very clear that there will be no return to it from this report, there is the transition period first— a hard border in Northern Ireland and that we believe during which, we hope, the Northern Ireland Assembly that it is only right that the people of Northern 1861 Brexit: Negotiations [3 OCTOBER 2019] Brexit: Negotiations 1862

Ireland have a say through the Executive on whether Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: Our focus, and what they wish to consent to the proposed arrangements. I we are aiming for, is a comprehensive, best-in-class believe that that is right. I will not second-guess their free trade agreement. We believe that we can certainly decision, but we fundamentally believe that it is their achieve that. I reiterate once again, as I said in answer democratic right to decide that. to the earlier question, that we have an excellent track record in relation to standards. We have made clear at this Dispatch Box time and again that we are not intending to lower standards. I referenced a few examples Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB): That is, with respect, of where we lead the world or exceed EU minimums, no answer to the noble Baroness’squestion. Her question which I can repeat: length of maternity leave, shared was this: supposing, four years down the line in this parental leave, holiday entitlement and greenhouse gas endless cycle of economic and political uncertainty—very targets. Of course, once we leave the EU, it will be for dangerous to the Northern Ireland situation—that this Parliament to make decisions on our standards. Northern Ireland said that it did not want this, what The strength of feeling around this House—and the would happen then? It is not clear. Is the EU to be told view of the Government—is that we absolutely would that it may not have the particular standard or regulation not want to lower our standards. In fact, we may want because a province of a country that is outside the EU to exceed them, and we will be able to do a lot of other does not like it? It seems an implausible proposition to things that we want to do. It is an unfair attack to say put to the EU. that this is about lowering standards. We have been I think that we are at a rather solemn moment here. very clear: it absolutely is not. We are formally resiling from our 2017 commitment to full regulatory alignment now and in future on Lord Caine (Con): My Lords, I return to the issue of anything that might affect the peace process and the democratic consent of the Assembly and Executive in all-Ireland economy. We are formally resiling from our respect of regulatory alignment. A number of noble 2018 commitment to a future economic partnership Lords have raised this issue. It is absolutely crucial based on a level playing field and common standards that we get this right; the way this is taken forward will for environment, employment and social standards. have a profound impact on the result, whether it is a We are deliberately tearing it up and highlighting that majority vote in the Assembly or taken forward by a in the letter that we have sent to the President of the cross-community vote. In addition, I will share some Commission. of the concerns that have been expressed about a vote On the first point, I have nothing more to add to taking place every four years on this issue. My experience what the noble Lord, Lord Hain, has said on Northern in Northern Ireland, which goes back 30 years, is that Ireland. It seems to me that he is absolutely correct. I this issue will be used every four years as a proxy for a would only say that I think that the corrosive effect on border poll. That would have possibly profound the Northern Ireland political situation of the continuing consequences for economic and political stability in uncertainty of this four-year cycle is bound to be Northern Ireland. damaging. I note that all elements in Northern Ireland— business or political, apart from the DUP—appear to be of the same view. Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: I can only defer to my noble friend on his knowledge in this area. The My view is that, in Brussels, more attention concerns that have been expressed across the House will be given to the abolition of the level-playing-field are noted. As I have said, the exact mechanisms in this commitment. I think they will conclude, rightly or area will be subject to discussions with our Irish wrongly, that we intend to challenge them by going for colleagues and, obviously, with representatives of the lower standards and deregulation, and I think that communities within Northern Ireland. As he says, it is they will find that extremely alarming. I heard the critical that we get this right and get it right for both Prime Minister’s Statement. The noble and learned communities in Northern Ireland, so that we can Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, is completely correct: move forward and protect the fantastic achievements the Prime Minister said that checks in the Irish Sea that have been made in relation to peace in Northern would be one way. In other words, he implied that Ireland. I hope I have been clear that this is paramount standards in the UK would be below those in the and a primary aim for us within these proposals. European Union and applied in Northern Ireland. I have four questions to ask the Minister. First, does she recognise how this would increase the difficulty Baroness Falkner of Margravine (Non-Afl): My Lords, of concluding, some years hence, even a bare-bones, the Prime Minister has said that this is a final offer. Canada-style free trade agreement with the European Does the Minister agree that, while it may be the final Union? Does she recognise the likely effect on market offer from the UK, it is the beginning of a fresh access to our largest market for our services exports, negotiation? It is profoundly important for the which are our biggest exports? Secondly, how will Government to keep that in mind and be prepared to trade deals with third countries work, given that the make further compromises against the framework of applicable standards for UK imports will differ depending what they have outlined. on the final destination in the UK? Thirdly, does the In light of that, coming back to the principle of Minister believe that the European Parliament and consent, I would like to put a proposition to the this Parliament could conceivably agree by 31 October Minister that is very much in keeping with the reservations to ratify a treaty based on these proposals? Fourthly, if that several noble Lords have addressed today. Instead not, what do the Government intend to do? of having a tight four-year framework in which issues 1863 Brexit: Negotiations [LORDS] Brexit: Negotiations 1864

[BARONESS FALKNER OF MARGRAVINE] a deal that can get through the House of Commons in are debated again and again, and with a limited the timeframe he has set out. We have faith and trust mandate—as pointed out by the noble Baroness, Lady that he will do that. Armstrong—would the Government be prepared to consider a longer timeframe, potentially of seven to Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con): My Lords, I am glad 10 years? I accept that the Minister is not going to take to hear of the progress he is making. I move away from part in negotiations from these Benches, but, in the Northern Ireland for a moment to ask my noble friend absence of that, perhaps the Government can look at about work on the tariff schedule. This will be especially the provisions of the European Union Act 2011, where important in the event of a no-deal Brexit, which the it was intended to consult the people only when there Statement says could still be an outcome. I am interested was a significant change in the transfer of powers to to know the timing for finalising the schedule and the EU. Perhaps a similar formula could be employed debating it in this House. I am a great believer in free to gain consent. Significant regulatory change or trade and cannot see how we can both unilaterally dealignment from either the United Kingdom or the introduce low tariffs, as proposed in the draft schedule, EU might be the only circumstances under which the and conclude amazing free trade agreements. There consent formula would kick in again. In other words, will be no incentive for countries such as Canada, let continue with the framework at the point of departure, alone the EU, to conclude good deals. This is a concern of Brexit, and make changes only when a certain that is outstanding, which we have not had an opportunity threshold has been achieved. to debate. Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: I thank my noble Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: I thank the noble friend, and I can say that the tariff schedule will be Baroness for her constructive comments. She is right published shortly. that I will not be stepping into negotiations from the Dispatch Box, but I can certainly reiterate that, as I Lord Dubs (Lab): My Lords, in all this, have we said in answer to the noble Baroness, in his letter to forgotten about the economic stability of the Government President Juncker the Prime Minister makes clear that in Dublin? Surely some of the things that we are this is a broad landing zone, within which we believe a talking about will damage the Irish economy enormously. deal can take shape. As I said, his chief negotiator has Do we not owe something more to the Irish for their gone to Brussels to continue the intense negotiations. loyalty and co-operation over many years than just We will be discussing the concerns or ideas raised by saying, “It’s your problem, we’ll leave it to you”? President Juncker, President Tusk and the Taoiseach Specifically, I understand that a significant proportion as we go forward over the next few days. of Irish trade with the EU goes across the sea route and then from Dover to Calais. What is going to happen to that trade link? Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB): My Lords, I wonder if the Minister could answer a couple of questions, Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: We are certainly not after one observation, which is that in order to reach a having that approach with our Irish colleagues; we landing zone you have to take off first. The two want to work very closely with them. We realise and questions I would like to ask are as follows. accept that there will have to be compromise on both sides and that Great Britain, not the Irish, made this On this vexed issue of consent, I do not want to go decision. That is why we have put these new proposals into what would happen, but can she confirm that, on the table—proposals that we hope we can work under the arrangements for government in Northern with the Irish on, so that we can get a deal in order Ireland, either of the two main parties—Sinn Féin or that we can move on to our future relationship. No the DUP—could, during the transitional period or at deal is something that we do not want and certainly the moment of the four-year review, frustrate the something that the Irish do not want, so, in order to continuation of the arrangements that have been try to tackle the issue that seemed to be the main negotiated, either by opposing them or by bringing problem with the withdrawal agreement getting through down the Government? Could she answer that factual the other place, we have come back with these fresh question? It is in the hands of either of them, and I am proposals so that we can do exactly as the noble Lord not pointing the finger at the DUP only, to frustrate said, which is come to a deal that is far, far better than the operation of this agreement. no deal for both us and our Irish friends. Secondly, the Prime Minister has had quite a lot of Brussels experience—although his misrepresentation Lord McNally (LD): My Lords, to help the noble of what went on there led one to doubt whether he Lord, Lord Howell, the policy of the Liberal Democrats really understood what was going on—but has he ever is to remain. That is the best deal on the table. However, in his life seen a process of the sort he is now describing that does not remove our duty in this House and in the being completed in the time available to this, before other place to explore what the Government of the 31 October? If not, what does he intend to do about it? day are proposing. I therefore put it to the Minister that the reason why the Good Friday/Belfast agreement worked was that it was the result of careful diplomacy Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: The noble Lord is with all the players in play in Northern Ireland and in right: if consent was withheld, the arrangements would the Republic. What is worrying about the proposal not come into force or would lapse after one year. On that the noble Baroness has put before us today is that his second point, the Prime Minister is absolutely it seems that only the DUP was involved. That is a committed to and putting his full energy into achieving fatal flaw in any attempt to win consensus in Ireland. 1865 Brexit: Negotiations [3 OCTOBER 2019] Brexit: Negotiations 1866

The other issue is that 31 October is not a special Commons again; we have to do something else. That is date other than in the mind of the Prime Minister. what we are trying to do. That is why we have come up There is absolutely no reason why we should leave on with some flexible proposals to have the conversation that date. If this proposal is as good as the Benches with the EU in order to get a deal done and move opposite are now arguing it is, surely it deserves time forward to talk about our strong, positive future trading to get it right rather than walking over a precipice of relationship with the EU. That is what we want to our own making into a disaster. We have all said move towards. things in negotiations—″dying in a ditch”or whatever— but the important thing now is the responsibility of Viscount Waverley (CB): Picking up on the theme the Prime Minister to negotiate in good faith for of potential disaster, but nevertheless wishing the success. An artificial deadline of his own making puts Government well in their endeavours to break the that commitment in doubt. deadlock, while I can see complications, some of which have been expressed this afternoon. I hope that Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: Well, I can certainly Yellowhammer will never need to be tested. However, say that we are negotiating in good faith. Our seriousness given its importance—the report on its effectiveness is in wanting to come up with a solution has been shown due out on 16 October, I believe—will the Government by the proposals that we have put forward, which have give serious consideration to ensuring that the Queen’s involved a number of compromises on our side and Speech allows us the opportunity to debate the contents things that are perhaps slightly uncomfortable. We of this, with appropriate days made available, because have done that because we want to get a deal. I say it is of such crucial importance? If not, will the once again that we are completely committed to finding Government ensure that, at the earliest opportunity solutions that are compatible with the Belfast/Good after the Queen’s Speech, proper time will be put aside Friday agreement. That is an absolute priority, and so that we can consider the contents of the publication? protecting it is the highest priority for us. Lord Whitty (Lab): My Lords, it is difficult to Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: I am sure that reconcile the intention to complete this by 31 October discussions with the usual channels being very constructive with the noble Baroness’s recognition that further will ensure that we will have time available to discuss compromises, details and clarifications will be required. the issues that noble Lords wish to discuss. I will Would it not therefore be sensible, in order to clarify obviously relay that back to the Chief Whip. the situation, for the Prime Minister at this stage to say, “Well, I’ve got so far. There’s been a relatively Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab): I was in the good response from Europe. I, on my own initiative, Commons and—I think probably like the country— will extend the time”? welcome the more conciliatory approach that the Prime I have two other questions. First, if that fails and Minister adopted. He was asked whether, in the light we are in a no-deal situation, what happens to all the of trying to secure the majority which he needs at the arrangements that have been made in the good times other end, he would be willing to put the Whip back between the United Kingdom and the Irish Republic? on those he had expelled. He did not give a straight Do they fall, because they are predicated on us both answer—indeed, he dodged it, which was to be expected. being members of the European Union and observing Equally, I think his biggest problem is not with Labour the same regulations and conventions? and the Opposition. His biggest problem throughout My second point is that, in a no-deal situation, the has been with a group of his own—the ERG. The Prime Minister was reported last week as saying, question might be: what soundings of the ERG have “Well, the EU can do what it likes and therefore the been taken, and will it be prepared to support the deal Irish Republic can set up customs checks on its side of that comes back? the border, but we will let them in”. Leaving aside that that seems to be the opposite of what the Brexiteers wanted, is that not in contravention of the WTO, Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: I can certainly say because we will have to be tied to a different EU tariff that the Prime Minister, the Cabinet and Ministers schedule from everybody else, and a nil tariff on the have been engaging with MPs throughout the Conservative border? Party. They have also been having conversations with MPs on the opposite side. We are trying to build a Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: We have been very coalition for the deal. As I mentioned to the noble clear that, in the event of no deal—which we do not Lord, Lord Whitty, I understand the frustration, but want—we would not put new infrastructure along the the previous withdrawal agreement was rejected three border. We very much hope that the EU and Ireland times. We have to build a coalition in order to get a would agree the same. Obviously, in a no-deal situation new withdrawal agreement through the House of we would have to have a different set of conversations Commons. with the Irish. That is why we are clear that we do not These proposals are an attempt to address some of want no deal; it is not the focus of this Government. the concerns about the backstop, which appeared to We want to get a deal and that is why in good faith we be the main issue in the House of Commons. If you have put forward these proposals. watched the Prime Minister today, he offered numerous I reiterate—frustrating though it is for everyone in meetings and conversations to MPs across the House, this House—that the House of Commons three times in order to make sure that we can move forward and rejected the withdrawal agreement and the backstop get a deal and discuss our future relationship with the that was on the table. So we cannot put it back to the EU and, importantly, talk about our domestic priorities. 1867 Brexit: Negotiations [LORDS] Human Rights: Future Trade 1868

[BARONESS EVANS OF BOWES PARK] an agreement that can be passed by the House of I am sure noble Lords opposite would like to talk Commons and that can mean we have a strong relationship about the issues that they want to raise outside Brexit with the EU going forward. I think that was recognised as well. It would be great to be able to talk more in quite a few of the contributions from across the broadly to the public again about the ideas that we House of Commons today. I very much hope we can both have for taking this country forward. build on that going forward. I hope we can build on it with our EU colleagues as we begin this next round of Lord Dubs: My Lords, I did ask a second question very intensive talks to hopefully break this deadlock, about what happens to Irish trade that goes through get a deal and move on to talking about the constructive England and then crosses from Dover to Calais. If the relationship that we want going forward. answer is not in the noble Baroness’s little book of words, perhaps she will write to me. Human Rights: Future Trade Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: I apologise to the noble Lord. I am afraid it is not in my little book of Motion to Take Note words, so I will have to go back. I am happy to write to 5.08 pm noble Lords and put something in the Library. Moved by Lord Harries of Pentregarth That this House takes note of the case for ensuring Lord Hain: My Lords, can I ask specifically about that human rights are respected in any future trade the position of the Irish Government and their relationship deals with other countries. with Her Majesty’s Government? The Good Friday agreement forms an international treaty—a legal Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB): My Lords, I agreement—between our two countries and is predicated begin by welcoming the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, on the basis of joint administration, or rather joint to the Dispatch Box. She is a stalwart defender of inter-ministerial agreement and consent. If Dublin human rights, particularly the right to religious freedom, feels that it cannot support the Government’s proposals, and we wish her well in her role. what then happens to the Good Friday agreement and that principle of joint consent? This has been absolutely The reason I am particularly grateful to have secured crucial given the torn history of our two countries this debate is that throughout the world human rights going back centuries. It is absolutely crucial to taking seem increasingly under threat. There is hardly a country this whole process forward. Will the noble Baroness in the world where there is not some cause for concern, take that question back to the Prime Minister and say and in many there is a flagrant denial of the rights we that it should be top of his agenda? rightly take for granted in this country. Some today pooh-pooh the idea of rights and talk Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: I can certainly take scornfully about the “human rights industry”, so let us the noble Lord’s comments back. As I say, we are remind ourselves of what they are really about. They working very hard with the Irish Government. One of are in origin about protecting the individual against the first people the Prime Minister spoke to yesterday the power of the state. In the aftermath of the terrible was the Taoiseach and there will be further discussions. atrocities of World War II, great men and women We are very cognisant of the unique circumstances of enshrined this in the UN Declaration of Human Rights Northern Ireland. I have tried to reiterate to noble and the other conventions and declarations that followed Lords the importance we place on the Good Friday on from it, not least the European Convention. agreement and all the benefits that have flowed from I believe that future historians will look back on that. I am very happy to reiterate that to my colleagues this legislation as one of the great achievements of the and the Prime Minister. 20th century. Human rights are, in the words of the Lord Marlesford (Con): My Lords, I have spent legal philosopher Ronald Dworkin, “trumps”. They quite a lot of my life observing and taking the temperature outbid any reason of state to torture or deny due of the House of Commons. Does my noble friend process to the individual. They are enshrined in law agree that the change today was quite remarkable? I and depend on law for their effectiveness, but they are would not be at all surprised if there was consensus to rooted in the equal worth and dignity of every single at least support the new approach the Government human being on earth. The value of the individual, as have taken. That approach has several alternatives a number of recent books have stressed, has come within it and, at any rate, is a base which did not seem about as a result of our Christian heritage—but today, to exist before. Would it have been helpful, if it had of course, it is championed as often as not by secular been obtainable, to have had a debate and a vote in the humanists. other place in which there could have been some The Motion before us today is connected to trade, endorsement of the Government’s approach before for the simple reason that, after Brexit, there will be the meeting of the Council of Ministers? desperate efforts to maximise trade wherever it can be found. The pressure will be enormous. At a time like Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: Watching the exchanges that, it will be particularly important to keep in mind in the House of Commons, it certainly felt like there the fundamental values for which this country stands. was a more constructive tone than we perhaps saw last The Motion before us can be looked at in two ways. week. This is an extremely difficult situation. As I said, First, it concerns the general record of a country on we are bringing forward these new proposals because human rights. Secondly, it concerns those human rights we want a deal. We want to try to ensure that we have that are specifically linked to trade agreements. The 1869 Human Rights: Future Trade[3 OCTOBER 2019] Human Rights: Future Trade 1870 two areas are linked, but no doubt different noble This would include publishing an “outline approach” Lords will want to focus on issues of particular concern at the start of negotiations to include the negotiating to them. objectives and the potential economic impact of the The pressure to play down the importance of human agreement. Parliament would have a role in scrutinising rights comes about not just because of the desirable these documents. It would also include publishing a aim of maximising trade, but because of the rise of “round report” following each substantial round of what are now termed “civilisational states”. There has negotiations, providing an outline of talks by policy always been pressure from nationalist states to deny area; establishing a, the reality of human rights. The nation, which in “close relationship with a specific parliamentary committee in practice may mean the rule of an authoritarian each House”, Government, it is argued, takes priority over individual to assist scrutiny of FTAs throughout the whole process; considerations. But today this is sometimes done in and publishing an Explanatory Memorandum and the name of a civilisation. China, with its long civilisation, full impact assessment alongside each final treaty text is of course the major culprit. From this perspective, when it is laid before Parliament. there are Chinese values—or, more exactly, Chinese communist values. This, it is argued, is a superior On that final point, the Government have said that alternative to the European insistence on individual they had previously committed to a discussion of any rights. “significant human rights implications” in each Explanatory Memorandum. The Government also agreed Against this we should say unashamedly and that the remit of the Joint Committee on Human unequivocally that human rights are a universal norm; Rights should include consideration of the Government’s a legal norm, as expressed in the UN declaration and international human rights obligations. All this is a other legal documents that flowed from it; and a significant step in the right direction, but we will moral norm, as underpinned by recognition of the certainly need to watch what happens after Brexit to equal work and value of every single human being on ensure that it is actually happening. earth. They are not just an expression of western imperialism, or a western point of view. They have One problem at the moment, as the Trade Justice universal validity and application, however often they Movement points out, is that free trade agreements are denied in practice. tend to have a higher level of enforceability than human rights agreements. The movement says: Of course, global trade is a fundamental feature of our times and an economic necessity. Furthermore, in “Trade agreements must be structured to ensure primacy of a flawed world, we often have to trade with countries human rights and sustainable development”. whose policies we strongly disagree with. There is no In this House, it is right that different Members question of totally clean hands: one value sometimes focus on different rights or different parts of the world has to be weighed up against others, and some where they have particular concerns. I will take this compromises have to be made. But the danger is that opportunity to mention very briefly four of my continuing we will just shrug our shoulders and think, “Well, concerns. One is , which has an exemplary that’s life. That’s the world we live in”, and forget constitution, written by that great man Dr Ambedkar, about human rights altogether. The point of my Motion who deserves to be as well known as Gandhi or is to bring to the fore the need not to forget them; to Nehru. According to India’s constitution, everyone is keep them in mind even in the rush to make new trade to be treated equally—but sadly in practice this is far agreements; and to respect them in a world of some from being the case. Minorities, in particular the Dalits— inevitable compromises. the former Untouchables—and tribal peoples suffer At the moment, the UK is of course part of the EU, by every indicator, not least when they try to obtain which has strong human rights considerations built access to justice when yet another atrocity has been into all trade agreements. I am glad to note that the perpetrated against their community. India used to be Government have committed themselves to continuing a model democracy and it is tragic that in recent years with this approach, although wanting some flexibility. under the Modi Government minority communities I believe we will need to watch those areas where this such as Muslims and Dalits are experiencing increasing flexibility is claimed, so that it does not mean in marginalisation. NGOs there find it increasingly difficult practice that human rights considerations are totally to get visas. This is totally unacceptable, and in our set aside. great desire to do more trade with India we must not drop our concern that India must live up to its great Everybody with an interest in these matters has constitution. argued that we need much greater scrutiny of free trade agreements by Parliament. It serves little purpose Then there is Indonesia, which in 1961 invaded to show an agreement to Parliament after it has already West Papua, the country to the west of Papua New been agreed. Parliament needs to be able to scrutinise Guinea, and which has conducted a savage repression it in the process of formulation. In its March 2019 of its indigenous peoples ever since—one mostly ignored report, the Joint Committee on Human Rights rightly by the world, but now, thank goodness, the international noted, for example, that the UK’s withdrawal from the community has been waking up to what is happening. EU meant that there would need to be much greater It is colonisation of the worst sort, with West Papua’s domestic scrutiny of many international agreements massive resources of gold, oil and gas being milked by previously negotiated at an EU level. Jakarta. Towards this end, the Government have suggested In 2016, the then United Nations Independent Expert an outline for this more extensive scrutiny process. on the Promotion of a Democratic and Equitable 1871 Human Rights: Future Trade[LORDS] Human Rights: Future Trade 1872

[LORD HARRIES OF PENTREGARTH] to welcome the Minister to her place. As a hugely International Order, Alfred de Zayas, called for all impressive and highly ethical person, her involvement future trade agreements to, in this field is very welcome. “stipulate the primacy of human rights”, I have to make an abject apology to the House, and for existing treaties to be revised in the same way. because my own personal human rights and well-being He argued that some trade agreements have in fact will be severely curtailed if I do not leave by 6.30 pm. I had a negative impact on human rights, such as rights had no idea that the debate would be going on so late to self-determination; sovereignty over natural wealth this evening but I will have serious domestic difficulties, and resources, especially of indigenous populations; which I will not go into further detail about. I apologise life and health when access to generic medicines is to the noble and right reverend Lord, the Minister and impeded; peaceful assembly and association; and public the leaders of the Benches and I will most definitely participation. What is noticeable about this list is that read the material very carefully. it is directly applicable to Indonesia, for in the case of West Papua all those rights are denied. This debate focuses on two really important priorities in our country. Over the centuries, we have Then there is the denial of basic rights for LGBT been a trading nation: an international perspective has people in so many Commonwealth countries. This too long been at the heart of our commercial, social and we must not forget but must work for changes in the political traditions. Similarly, part of our identity is a laws of those countries. We cannot accept that there is fiercecommitmenttopromotingeconomicanddemocratic freedom for LGBT people in one country but not in rights here and around the world, combating sources others. of exploitation and oppression. The noble and right Finally,there is the vicious denial of religious freedom reverend Lord mentioned some countries and areas in so many countries. We think especially at the moment where there is profound concern and, indeed, deteriorating of China, where the Uighur Muslims are literally situations. having their Muslim identity stripped from them, and countries such as Iran and Saudi Arabia, where it is Last week marked the close of the 42nd session of virtually impossible to practise a religion other than the United Nations Human Rights Council, reminding the state-sponsored one. us that support for human rights is a pillar of our responsibilities within the rules-based international With the continuing denial of human rights in so system. I believe that we have a proud record of many countries, it may be that any British Government impactful action around the world, both independently would get weary of raising these issues with the and in bilateral and multilateral collaboration. I also Governments concerned. We must not get weary or want to praise the Foreign and Commonwealth Office shrug our shoulders. If those suffering individuals do and DfID for their tenacious and principled work not have a voice through us, where will they have one? promoting human rights, which has included work We must continue to press for the observance of with civil society organisations in and with human rights wherever they are denied, even when we the Nepalese Government on capacity-building are anxious to trade with the countries concerned. programmes; the conference held by the former Foreign After Brexit, this House and the other place will have a Secretary and my constituency successor,Jeremey Hunt, particular responsibility to scrutinise trade agreements, on media freedom because of the appalling concern to ensure that maximising trade is not done at the over the safety of journalists; and the work with expense of ignoring human rights considerations. Access Now and its #KeepItOn campaign to fight undemocratic internet shutdowns during elections. That I end by paying tribute to the Foreign and has all been in the last year alone. There is also our Commonwealth Office, which continues to press the work through the Human Rights Council, which only issues that we always raise in this House—but I ask it recently passed resolutions on Syria, Myanmar,Burundi, to do so with increased determination and seriousness. Yemen and the DRC. The Westminster Foundation I also thank those noble Lords on all sides of the for Democracy works in , Kenya and House who raise these issues, not least those who will Sierra Leone on disabilities. There has also been work speak today and whom I look forward to hearing. All in and Nigeria on underrepresented young of us who do that continue to give voice to the people. voiceless, even when, sadly, so many Governments There are a huge number of areas where we have seem to remain deaf to their cries. I beg to move. been willing and wanting to take a lead and to demonstrate our commitment. Perhaps most striking is the work of our former Prime Minister,Theresa May,on the Modern 5.20 pm Slavery Act, both as Home Secretary and as Prime Baroness Bottomley of Nettlestone (Con): My Lords, Minister. It is quite extraordinary: every company to hear the noble and right reverend Lord is really like listed on the FTSE 100 has to make a declaration in its having an hour’s version of “Thought for the Day”; annual report that it has not been involved in modern we all feel better and wiser. His measured tone and slavery. This is quite a remarkable, almost draconian words of wisdom and the balance with which he puts step, which I am delighted to say other countries are forward the debate are incontrovertible and critically now following. important at this time. He does not say that human The noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, has worked on rights should dominate trade deals, but that they religious rights, as the noble and right reverend Lord should be respected. It is in that balanced mode that I said, in Iraq, Sudan, Indonesia, Tunisia, Algeria, Egypt want to make a contribution. I also want very warmly and so on and so forth. The Commonwealth also 1873 Human Rights: Future Trade[3 OCTOBER 2019] Human Rights: Future Trade 1874 plays a great role. I would like to say more about the go down the mines and train the supervisors on better Commonwealth, like my noble friend Lord Howell; its employment practices. The commitment of many global commitment to human rights has also been extraordinarily businesses to female empowerment, anti-child labour important. practices, sustainability and anti-corruption measures The link between human rights and trade deals is phenomenal. Whatever you think of Coca-Cola, it is relatively recent. Talking of trade in general, free is a precious brand whose work in these areas is trade—in a rules-based system—has benefited the world phenomenal. enormously. It has taken more than a billion people Business organisations, therefore, and the new review out of absolute poverty, improving the fulfilment of of corporate governance in the United Kingdom—which the right to life, the right to an adequate standard of is developing Section 172 of the Companies Act by living, and the right to health, adequate nourishment, talking about “purpose”, “mission” and “stakeholder safe drinking water and sanitation. In addition, global commitment”—are showing a trend that says that poverty rates have fallen from 35% in 1990 to 10%; the business has to earn its right to trade. With support, global hunger index has come down 30% since 2000; encouragement and determination, trade agreements, there has been a 5.5 year increase in global life expectancy; the role of business and the development of human the gap between the most and least developed countries rights should be able to march hand in hand, as long has shrunk; and global illiteracy has halved since as we remain vigilant, determined and committed to 1990. This comes from prosperity, wealth creation and making the world a better place for us all. trade, so I am an unequivocal believer in the idea that business and trade are the solution, not the cause, of the world’s problems. 5.29 pm Deeply alarming instances of sinister protectionism Lord Whitty (Lab): My Lords, we are all indebted are emerging on the world stage. We live in an incredibly to the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, interconnected world: the WTO says that the volume for introducing this debate with such passion and of international trade has multiplied 38 times since clarity, and to the noble Baroness, Lady Bottomley, 1945, and the McKinsey Global Institute found that for explaining how trade and human rights—economic goods, services and financial flows increased by 400% benefit and protection of human rights—do not need between 1990 and 2012. However, while trade and to be in contradiction. I recall that in the very early connectivity have led to impressive strides towards days of the last Labour Government my colleague, many of the sustainable development goals, we are mentor and friend, Robin Cook, was often derided for increasingly aware of ongoing and emerging global advocating a moral foreign policy. In fact, he was human rights challenges.This is extraordinarily worrying. never naive enough to say that; what he did advocate This is the 13th consecutive year of global democratic was a moral dimension to foreign policy. What I am decline, according to Freedom House. The noble and advocating in this debate is a moral dimension to our right reverend Lord has spoken about the situation in future, post-Brexit international trade policy. China and how sinister that is, and we all watch Hong We may, to my regret, be moving into a post-Brexit Kong with great concern. situation within a few weeks. Some of the more extreme Trade and international agreements impact all areas proponents, or at least the more vociferous proponents, of a country’s public policy, and we should take a of Brexit have always seen a future beyond Brexit of holistic, inclusive approach involving comprehensive Britain acting as a buccaneering power doing trade impact assessments. The Minister has already dismissed with everybody all around the world. The point about outright the idea that there will be a deterioration in buccaneers is that they do not obey the rules, but the standard of human rights protection in the new effective arrangements for international trade require world. It will be up to us in the United Kingdom to rules—and they require rules to be understood and develop this instrument, to use it proportionately and they require rules to be enforced. Just like some people’s in a balanced manner, and to energetically promote approach to our relationship over the decades with the trade and human rights—which is always very much EU, many people approach trade as if it is a zero-sum in our hearts. There should be no dogmatism. If, for game. It should not be; it should be to the mutual example we did not want to trade with people who still benefit—not necessarily equal, but mutual positive had capital punishment, our relationship with Japan, benefit—of both sides. That applies absolutely in this America, Singapore and others would not exist: it has area. to be proportionate. As we move into new trade arrangements, they I will say a little more about what business does on need to be used not only to stimulate economic benefit its own, without trade policies and agreements. When and therefore social benefit but benefit to the conditions I was young, Barclays was vilified for trading in South under which the citizens of the countries with which Africa. One of my jobs in government was to take we trade operate, whether it is their working conditions President Nelson Mandela, on his first visit to the UK and workers’ rights—which are often either minimal after leaving prison, across to House. or flagrantly ignored—or their rights as citizens in What did he say? He said that anti-apartheid was other respects. This of course is not a new concept, simple; what was difficult was building a country, and particularly in the labour area. In the 1920s, when we how indebted they were to all those enlightened first established the multilateral machinery of the League international businesses that had hung on in in of Nations, we also established the International Labour South Africa and taught their people enlightened Organization. A few weeks ago, in the debate in this employment practices. My father was a management House initiated by my noble friend Lord Jordan, we and leadership guru. He used to go to Anglo-American, debated the role of the ILO in the modern world. 1875 Human Rights: Future Trade[LORDS] Human Rights: Future Trade 1876

[LORD WHITTY] clauses. If there is a clear breach of various provisions Historically, the adoption by the ILO of labour they should withdraw from the agreement and not conventions in relation to anti-slavery and trafficking, allow long-term sunset clauses to prevent them from working conditions, rights of worker organisations so doing; they should retaliate in terms of trade with and rights on health and safety was often built into that country. We also need to ensure that such clauses treaties and, post the Second World War, built into are written into new arrangements within the WTO. treaties on a multilateral basis under GATT and now My hope is that that will be the Government’s approach. the WTO. The Library briefing provided for us states The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, with some surprise that human rights relating to workers has already referred to my final point. To ensure that were more often written into international trade this happens, we need parliamentary scrutiny and agreements than were human rights in other respects. some transparency on this issue. Hitherto, until 2010, That is not surprising politically, because people who treaties were not really scrutinised at all in Parliament, feel threatened by freer trade are often workers in but now we at least have a CRAG procedure for that. higher-waged, more developed economies—they have In relation to trade negotiations, we need to have at to be politically squared, and rightly so. It is also least the equivalent rights of scrutiny, transparency because we established at a very early stage in such and openness that the European Parliament has had multilateral arrangements the ILO, its conventions for the last 40 years and, to a large extent, are present and its follow-through, and they were reflected in a lot in Congress in the United States. We need a clear and of agreements around the world. powerful Joint Committee of both Houses on future In this post-Brexit global trading area, the expectation trade negotiations in this Parliament. is that the UK can relatively freely negotiate with a whole range of nations. Some of this will be in rolled-over 5.37 pm agreements, which will, if they are completely reflected, already have the EU’s stipulation—at least to some Baroness Barker (LD): My Lords, I welcome the extent—in relation to commitments on human rights. noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, to her position. She However, the ambition of the free traders—the extreme and I have had many an interesting discussion on the free traders, if I can call them that—is to do deals with subject of equal rights and I look forward to continuing nations with which the EU does not have an arrangement that in the Chamber as well as outside. I thank the and which may well have pretty poor human rights. noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, for China has already been referred to in relation to many calling this debate, which draws attention to a part of aspects, but in recent weeks we have read about the the Brexit process that has received very little comment treatment of the Uighurs—the Muslim minority in but is, for some of us, extremely important. I say that China. We have read of countries in the Middle East as a person who, as a citizen of this country, owes my and their treatment of Christians and other minorities. equality—as a member of the LGBT community—to There are major economies in South America whose a string of court judgments that were fought tooth human rights leave something to be desired. We could and nail by Governments of this country of different use trade to improve conditions for the citizens of political persuasions. The European courts have been those countries. We should have a commitment from a source of great comfort to some of us from different the Government that when they approach new trade minority groups and we are very fearful that we might negotiations, they will insist from the beginning on a have to live within a future where that protection is recognition of the need to observe at least minimum removed. I do not need to remind the noble Baroness standards in relation to the treatment of workers, that three times since 2016, the Conservative Party has rights to equality, and non-discrimination by gender, announced that it will retain the Human Rights Act sexuality, faith or ethnicity. These need to be written until 2020, at which point it will be replaced by what it in, at least in broad terms, to those agreements. refers to as “a British Bill of Rights”. The UK could take a lead on this. The United We are told that those rights will be equivalent but I States, regrettably, at its present stage in politics, is not have some fears, from where I stand, given the correlation going to. The United Kingdom could do so, but between Members of another place who support Brexit unfortunately, the current indications from the UK and those who have been opponents of equality for Government are sort of in the opposite direction in people like me. There is a great deal of fear in our that—the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, is no longer in his community that we will be in no position to tell the seat, but he was very interested in this in the earlier rest of the world how to maintain human rights, and Statement—the Government are reported to have said that at a future point we may well diverge dramatically to the EU that they wish to withdrawthe level-playing-field from a growing body of European law passed in the provisions which are currently in the political declaration light of future judgments. I say that as somebody who on the future relationship with the EU. That refers to a has in recent years been able to see for myself the good level playing field in relation to employment rights, effect that membership of the European Union has social rights and environmental protection. If that is had in places such as the Balkans or in the Baltic our intention in relation to a free-trade agreement with countries, which, in order to meet accession terms, our major existing trading partner, I shudder to think have had to put in place laws protecting the rights of what it might be in relation to those potential partners minorities. I fear that leaving the European Union—if where human rights are indeed a very serious issue. that were to happen—would undermine that quite I hope that the Government do not mean that or considerably. pursue that and I hope that they are prepared to argue I follow the noble Baroness, Lady Bottomley, in for such clauses and for the enforcement of such saying that I do not think any kind of theoretical 1877 Human Rights: Future Trade[3 OCTOBER 2019] Human Rights: Future Trade 1878 commitment to human rights really matters; it is their In seeking to reflect their priorities, I am sorry that practical effect. In our community, we are beginning mine will not be a happy speech. Often, Her Majesty’s to gather growing evidence to show that those countries Government have elected to prioritise trade and economic with a good legal basis for equality—and have good interests over human rights. practice of equality—actually benefit from it in economic Time only permits four examples. First, there was terms.Conversely,it is possible to drawa direct correlation the war fought by Azerbaijan to achieve ethnic cleansing between those with human rights abuses. As the noble of the Armenians in the enclave of Nagorno- Lord, Lord Whitty, said, there is considerable concern Karabakh—part of historic Armenia relocated by about leaving our largest market, in which the people Stalin into Azerbaijan. I was there many times during with whom we trade are bound by common standards the war which occurred between 1990 and 1994. I used and laws in relation to equalities. I am sure we do to count 400 Grad missiles a day, fired by Azerbaijan business with some countries that have dreadful human on to the small city of Stepanakert, together with the rights. We do a great deal of business with countries low-flying aerial bombardment of civilian targets with with dreadful human rights records, but they are not massive, 500-kilogram bombs. On one visit I took now a sufficiently significant part of our trade to photographs of children shredded by cluster bombs. I override our laws. We wonder whether they might be showed these photos to a very important senior person in future. We are talking, at the end of the day, about in the Foreign Office. When I asked if Her Majesty’s the capacity of people to start businesses and build Government would make representations to the jobs, here and abroad. Government of Azerbaijan to stop dropping cluster I want briefly to follow up the point of the noble bombs on civilians, in contravention of international and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, about future law, I received this reply: scrutiny. I have a very personal view. When human “No one has an interest in other countries; only interests. We rights are under threat, we have to be as vigilant as a have oil interests in Azerbaijan. Good morning”. hawk. There is much that this House needs to do to Secondly, the present Government refuse to recognise scrutinise future trade deals. Having done some research, as genocide the ongoing and widespread attacks on as it stands there is only one example of an international Christians in Nigeria’s northern and central-belt states. trade deal that recognises gender identity and sexual The Nigerian House of Representatives has declared orientation as grounds for discrimination in its recent killings to be genocide and the statistics are labour chapter, and contains measures to ensure that certainly compatible with this definition. The refusal these grounds are enforceable. It is, would you believe, of Her Majesty’s Government to recognise this absolves Article 23.9 of the United States-Mexico-Canada them of the duties to respond appropriately. In recent Agreement, which says: years, several thousand Christian civilians have been “The Parties recognize the goal of eliminating discrimination slaughtered and more than two million displaced, in employment and occupation, and support the goal of promoting following Boko Haram and Fulani insurgencies. Yet equality of women in the workplace. Accordingly, each Party shall implement policies that it considers appropriate to protect our Government have not responded with appropriate workers against employment discrimination on the basis of sex political or humanitarian support for victims of Fulani (including with regard to sexual harassment), pregnancy, sexual attacks and land grabs. orientation, gender identity, and caregiving responsibilities; provide In Anguldi IDP camp in the central belt, we were job-protected leave for birth or adoption of a child and care of family members; and protect against wage discrimination”. told: My questions are as follows. Can we look forward— “In more than 20 years of crisis in Jos, local people observed a once we get beyond the platitudes we hear from some connivance of militants with the military on many occasions. For example, the Government sent in a helicopter with military, and on the Government Benches that the level of rights Fulani met them. The Fulani herdsmen now go about with and protections we have will, of course, in future be at AK47s”. least equivalent to what it is now—to a time when we Last year, Nigeria’s former Army chief of staff and have commitments of that kind in our trade agreements? Defence Minister, Lieutenant General Theophilus Will we have a mechanism by which Members of both Danjuma, said that the armed forces were, “not neutral; Houses of Parliament can scrutinise those agreements, they collude” in the, not just when they are drawn up but when they are implemented? Or do we, as I fear, run the risk that the “ethnic cleansing in … riverine states”, rights of people like me might just end up on the by Fulani militia. He insisted that villagers must defend bonfire of some kind of ERG-DUP Brexit? themselves because, “depending on the armed forces”, 5.44 pm it will result in them dying “one by one”. The ethnic Baroness Cox (CB): My Lords, I also warmly welcome cleansing must stop. In this context, can the Minister the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, to her post and reassure the Nigerian people as to how the United wish her every success in the fulfilment of a very Kingdom will engage with the Nigerian Government important remit. I also congratulate my noble and and balance conflicting priorities between human rights right reverend friend Lord Harries on securing this and other priorities, notably trade? important debate and on his powerful opening speech. Thirdly, in Sudan, the regime of the notorious As your Lordships may be aware, I spend much of ICC-indicted President al-Bashir, who was in power my time with my small NGO—Humanitarian Aid from 1989 until this year, was responsible for three Relief Trust, or HART—supporting our partners in million deaths,five million displaced and tens of thousands remote locations which are generally unreached by of women and children abducted into slavery. Yet, last major aid organisations for political or security reasons. year, the Foreign Office declared that it was changing 1879 Human Rights: Future Trade[LORDS] Human Rights: Future Trade 1880

[BARONESS COX] The situation has worsened devastatingly since the its relationship with Sudan from “sticks” to “carrots”, crisis was highlighted in the medical journal, the Lancet, apparently in order to co-operate with Khartoum to in May 2015: promote its own interests in the region. “The economic losses of the country at the end of 2014 stood at US $143.8 billion, with more than 80% of the population living in poverty, of whom a third … were in abject poverty, unable to obtain even basic food items. Life expectancy has been reduced from 75.9 years in 2010 … to 55.7 years in 2014—a loss of 20 years ... The cost of basic food items has risen six-fold since 2010, although it varies regionally. With the exception of drugs for cancer and diabetes, Syria was 95% self-sufficient in terms of drug production before the war. This has virtually collapsed as have many hospitals and primary health-care centres. Economic sanctions have not removed the President … Sanctions are among the biggest causes of suffering for the people of Syria”. Given that sanctions are central to the question of trade, can the Minister clarify their impact, since their imposition in 2012, on the Government of Syria and on the economic well-being of Syrian civilians? Does she appreciate that using human rights to justify the imposition of sanctions on weak countries whose Governments our Government wish to remove is as bad as subordinating human rights to economic interests? In conclusion, we in HART often feel that in our work, we suffer what I call the double twist of the knife. We return from being with people and witnessing Such a change of approach warrants serious scrutiny, their excruciating pain to raise these tragedies with our not least because it bestowed credibility on the now Government, who do not want to respond with any deposed President without yielding any tangible results assistance. It is the local, innocent civilians in these for the United Kingdom or for the Sudanese people. I and other countries who suffer the harsh effects of have raised this issue in your Lordships’House, claiming Her Majesty’sGovernment’sinterests when trade overrides that the regime was enjoying munching the carrots, humanitarian aid. I very much hope that this debate but asking what the conditions were. Can the Minister will highlight some of those issues for future trade say what Her Majesty’s Government’s position was deals and promote policy changes to bring desperately regarding the policy of carrots? Presumably, it was needed help to civilians now in dire need, who are partly associated with the promotion of trade with currently left to suffer as political pawns. Sudan and its allies, but it happened in the context of continuing offences against civilians. To date, I have received no satisfactory reply. 5.51 pm Lord Judd (Lab): My Lords, I join others in thanking the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, for securing this debate. It is not just a one-off event for him: his whole political life has been committed to this area. The Government—I am sure that on this, we will all commend them—frequently express their commitment to the overseas aid programme. That programme is not just about getting the GDP of various countries to rise; it must surely be about how the condition and well-being of the people rise, and how individuals become able to live fuller lives, developing their potential. In that context, trade deals become very important. Of course, trade deals can lead to increased growth in national wealth, but I dare to say that that is not necessarily to be welcomed if it is not reflected in the well-being of individual people. That is why it is essential that, when we are making trade deals, we take very seriously our commitment to human rights. However, “human rights” is a term that can become Finally, during my visits to Syria, local people have a nice generalisation. What matters are the specifics. consistently emphasised their profound concerns over What are those trade deals doing to improve the the devastating impact of British foreign policy,including condition of women and the fulfilment of their rights? the horrendous effects of sanctions. These greatly What are they doing to grapple with the issue of the harm civilians for whom it is very difficult to obtain maltreatment, relative poverty or disadvantage of adequate supplies of food, medicines, medical equipment vulnerable minorities? What about the issues of gender? or employment. What about the appalling story of attitudes in some 1881 Human Rights: Future Trade[3 OCTOBER 2019] Human Rights: Future Trade 1882 countries towards homosexuality, for example? These situation, I was reminded that I was the architect of are all real human issues, and we need to be very clear the Aktau Declaration on Joint Actions, which set out that we are pushing our trade deal agreements as far as to unify the endeavours of foreign oil and gas operators we can push them in the direction of dealing with in a post-Soviet CIS world. This was to encourage specifics and not just generalisations. That is the first organisations from the West—particularly the UK—to point I wanted to make. partner local endeavours, in order to strengthen their The second is that it depends on will and motivation ability to bring up their manufacturing and service within our Governments and Administrations. Is our industry standards, so that they could then embark commitment to a theoretical agreement minimalist? upon a world of their own as their standards came How far does it constrain all the liberal freedom we forward. It was a successful endeavour. To me, it would like to see? How far do we have to go in meeting shows the power of trade, if conducted in the right what must be met in terms of legal formalities? How way. It is away from the principal theme, but I was just far are we pursuing these matters with a positive reminded of it. approach, saying, “What are we doing to ensure that A main priority of the Government is to pursue a the spirit and purpose of the details of the agreement wide-reaching and independent trade policy once are being fulfilled”? Other noble Lords have referred departure from the European Union is assured. An to this. What does this mean for our ability to scrutinise, unequivocal benefit of our membership over these in Parliament and publicly, what is happening? All past 45 years has been safety in the knowledge that, these things are very important. when the European Union has negotiated trade deals Our record—we must face this—is not altogether on behalf of the UK and other EU member states, it convincing. In my past I have been a Minister both at has done so in a way that safeguards and upholds defence and for overseas development, and one of my fundamental human rights. long-standing concerns has been the importance of As the UK spreads her wings and embarks on an the arms trade in Britain. I have come to the very firm aggressive trade strategy on a scale not seen since the conviction that in the highly volatile, dangerous world 1950s, it is vital that she upholds the torch of freedom in which we live, arms are not just another good to be and acts as a beacon for the promotion, protection exported. They have the potential to create havoc and and enhancement of human rights across the globe. great suffering and to provoke conflict and instability. After all, these are core values that define us as a Therefore, my view is that arms exports should really nation. To ensure that human rights are respected, the be only to countries with which we have a close transparency of trade negotiations is paramount. At alliance or countries in which—on a very specific basis EU level, the European Ombudsman has been successful and with a very clear foreign policy objective—they in encouraging transparency from the Commission, are an essential ingredient. Of course, this is not the especially in respect of the SIA processes for the way it operates. I am bound to say that, from my own Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership. Will experience and what I have seen over the years, it the Minister assure us that the Government will promote appears that arms are treated just as other goods transparency in future trade negotiations? What body unless there is some blindingly obvious reason why we will fulfil the role of the European Ombudsman following need to restrict their sales. That, I suggest, is historically EU departure? an irresponsible position. As the pressure grows to cut trade deals, we must When I say that our record is not altogether convincing, not forgo the standards that define us. Being on the I must take the case of Yemen. The suffering, death United Nations Security Council, the UK has a special and destruction, the orphans and the bereaved—it is a and enhanced responsibility to ensure that, when engaging terrible story in Yemen. Yet, of course, we have been in trade, the people on the ground share the freedom exporting arms to Saudi Arabia, which has played an and standards that we as British citizens too often take increasingly significant part in that conflict. We know for granted. It is sadly true that the cost of implementing that the court ruled that the export of arms as we have human rights in developing nations often proves been pursuing it in the context of Saudi Arabia was economically disadvantageous in the short term. However, not valid and acceptable. I simply make the point that as the sixth largest economy in the world, the UK this goes back to a minimalist approach in the operation should mitigate the financial burden of this responsibility of our obligations under arms deals. We must have a if seeking to benefit from new trade deals. proactive approach. It is absolutely terrible that there Fifty years ago, the UN Conference on Trade and have been two recognised instances of continuing Development called on developed nations to help the export of arms to Saudi Arabia after the court’s developing countries integrate into the global economy. rulings. We really have to pull our socks up and Today, the EU’s generalised scheme of preferences— demonstrate that we are committed not only in theory— GSP—removes the burden of import duties on some because it is on the practice and rigour with which we two-thirds of tariff lines from vulnerable developing pursue our objectives that we will be tested. countries, alleviating poverty and creating jobs based on international values. 6 pm It would be poor form—I had in mind to use the Viscount Waverley (CB): My Lords, this is a short word “travesty”—if Britain did not maintain the principles diversion from the main theme of the debate—which I of the GSP mechanisms currently in place. The GSP+ will return to, of course. Listening to the noble Baroness, scheme is designed to help developing countries assume Lady Bottomley, talking about her father’s experiences special burdens and responsibilities resulting from the and approach to life, as well as the point by the noble ratification of 27 core international conventions on Lord, Lord Whitty, that trade should be a win-win human and labour rights, environmental protection 1883 Human Rights: Future Trade[LORDS] Human Rights: Future Trade 1884

[VISCOUNT WAVERLEY] tangibles. Even the creation of the WTO, following and good governance, as well as effective implementation. the GATT, focused on tangibles. The challenge that I hope the Minster will be able to assure us that the has remained unaddressed through the WTO, the UN, UK will continue with the eight GSP+ beneficiaries the EU and other large trading countries, such as the post-Brexit. This point was most eloquently and forcefully US and China, is establishing frameworks for the underlined by the new ambassador of to exponential rise of intangibles as a huge segment of the UK, who called on me this morning; he has, by the trade. We in Parliament are also in danger of focusing bye, certainly hit the ground running. on the narrowing proportion of exchange in goods I want to continue the point made by the noble rather than concentrating on the rise of digital Lord, Lord Judd, on the theme of gender.Last November, globalisation, which is taking place on platforms, in women MPs from around the world graced the Chamber data agglomeration and through innovative technologies. of the House of Commons and shared their stories of In preparation for this debate, I drew on the McKinsey global struggle for the basic right of gender equality. I Global Institute report Digital Globalization, which was moved by their interventions; it was a very moving was published in 2014, so the figures I shall share are experience. Through globalism and advances in already out of date. The current figures are undoubtedly technology, we are at the forefront of unparalleled higher. change and with this change comes the responsibility In the decades since 1990, when political barriers in to tackle issues such as gender inequality. the developed world came down, the world’s trade in The Minister may wish to reflect on the interventions goods, including commodities, finished goods and made in the Women MPs of the World debate, especially intermediate inputs, grew roughly twice as fast as in their plea for a woman’s right to education. As we global GDP. The large multinationals expanded their embark on a journey of new global trade negotiations, supply chains and established new bases of production it really would be a testament to this nation’s proud in countries with low-cost labour—offshoring, as we trading history if the UK could enshrine the equal know it. Global trade in goods went from around rights of women, particularly equality of education, in 14% of world GDP in 1986 to 27% in 2008, on the eve all future trade deals. of the great recession. After Brexit, the Government should anticipate In the period since, trade in finished and intermediate greater scrutiny of future trade agreements. In that manufactured goods has declined, thanks to several regard, I foresee—this point has also been made—a structural forces. The makers of many finished goods role for this House in holding the Government of the are beginning to place less importance on labour costs day to account. I hope that the Government will and more on speed to market and non-labour costs. therefore ensure that Parliament has a key role in As a result, production is moving closer to end scrutinising the full human rights impact assessments consumers—the practice we now know as reshoring. and the draft treaty texts of any new trade agreements That is without any help from Mr Trump. In the proposed. decade ahead, the global goods trade will continue to As all noble Lords will know, today is National decline relative to world GDP, due not least to a Poetry Day in the United Kingdom. I conclude by reduction in factor costs but also to technology such remembering Eliza Cook, the great mid-1800s poet as 3D printing and other new forms of manufacture, and proponent of workers’ rights, particularly in the which will transform how and where goods such as north. Her strong, timeless words include these: electronics, vehicle parts, machinery,electrical equipment, “There’s a heart that leaps with burning glow, medical instruments and apparel are produced. The wronged and the weak to defend; And strikes as soon for a trampled foe, On the question of what countries can do in requiring As it does for a soul-bound friend … others to up their game in defence of their citizens’ ’Tis a rich, rough gem, deny it who can; human rights, I argue that this area of nation states’ And this is the heart of an Englishman.” leverage will become a less potent tool with the advance That is the spirit which should guide us as we seek to of the trends that I have spoken about. High- and ensure that human rights are upheld in future United middle-income countries, where digital globalisation Kingdom trade arrangements. is providing the richest rewards, are the very ones where the defence of human rights is relatively secure. The countries that matter, where human rights are 6.08 pm least upheld, are the very ones where digital globalisation Baroness Falkner of Margravine (Non-Afl): My Lords, might well leapfrog traditional manufacture—the focus I too thank the noble and right reverend Lord, of most regulation of trade. If it does not they will be Lord Harries of Pentregarth, for initiating this debate. better and more directly assisted through ODA, as I also warmly welcome the Minister to the Front their participation in free trade agreements is limited, Bench. Her role here is much deserved and I look in any event. forward to hearing what she says in the period to Let me give the concrete example of the WTO’s come. I am going to speak about the broader trends Trade in Services Agreement, known as TiSA. This is which are more relevant to the future and nature of the first plurilateral trade deal in 20 years. It aims to free trade agreements, although I agree almost entirely liberalise trade in services by reducing non-tariff barriers with everything said by all the speakers who have such as technical standards, licensing, permits and gone before. qualification requirements. Trade in services is already Our conceptions of free trade agreements are on more than 60% of modern domestic economies, with the whole related to manufactured goods—agri-products the top three exporters being the US, the EU and the or commodities—in other words, physical things or United Kingdom. Fifty countries are taking part in 1885 Human Rights: Future Trade[3 OCTOBER 2019] Human Rights: Future Trade 1886

TiSA, of which 42 are high-income and 28 of which he had to attend and he did not want to let down the are in the EU. Seven are middle-income and only two, House by leaving midway through so he asked me to Paraguay and Pakistan, are low-income. Future trade take this on, which I have been happy to do. agreements—in the areas where regulation is most I join others in welcoming the noble Baroness, significantly needed—will be in intangibles, to protect Lady Berridge, to her new position. This is my first citizens’rights and to improve environmental protections opportunity to debate with her on one of these occasions and standards, privacy laws and non-discrimination in since her appointment. I am sure that, as has been said qualifications. But even in these areas progress has already, her knowledge and experience on some aspects stalled because those talks are not going anywhere. At of this issue will come forward in what she has to say, the UN and the OECD, two significant bodies in and I look forward to hearing that. international agreements, the concentration is on fair taxation. I would argue that is extremely important I congratulate the noble and right reverend Lord, but not the same thing as human rights. Lord Harries of Pentregarth, on getting this debate. It is a debate that we have been having in many separate Looking at human rights, let me turn more directly parts over the last year; certainly, a number of the to what Parliament can do in the here and now on the points that have come up today were made in the UK’s position on safeguards in future trade agreements, Trade Bill. It also taps into a wider sense in which post Brexit. I welcome the fact that the UK has suddenly trade has become a big issue in our civic committed to staying within the EU approach towards discussions and debates. Those of us who have ploughed human rights standards, including impact assessments a long furrow on this have felt for some time that we and human rights clauses. In so far as the UK rolls were not the only interested parties and others should over existing EU FTAs: so far, so good. have joined in earlier. Trade has a lot going for it in The question arises as to the future. Here, the most terms of the wider issues of the politics and policies of important thing is for Parliament to have access to the our times. The noble and right reverend Lord set out Government’s outline approach, and oversight and the reasons for that with great clarity and lucidity in a scrutiny at every stage of the negotiations, even if that wide-ranging conspectus about whythis issue is important. is on a restricted-access arrangement for scrutiny He gave some compelling reasons why the Government committees. My point is that every FTA will be different should think hard about how to do more in this area, and merit different areas of scrutiny and suspension should responsibilities come to them either sooner or or exemption clauses—hence my preference for scrutiny later as a result of Brexit. committee oversight. Were the UK ever to conclude an FTA with, say, Saudi Arabia—a country already I want to build on a number of points made by my mentioned—the case for an intense and deep use of noble friends Lord Whitty and Lord Judd, not because human rights clauses would indeed be merited. On the I wish to select them particularly but because they other hand, an FTA with the US would merit a closer chime with how I want to shape my remarks today. So regard to non-tariff barriers than to human rights. So I shall pick up on their particular points, although Parliament would need to look forensically at each others have made very good points that I shall also agreement on its own merits. I would also favour a allude to, including those relating to LGBT people. periodic review of agreements, particularly in the light Good businesses need to build respect for human of legal actions taken by private investors in the investor- rights into the business that they do. I do not think state dispute settlements area. this is something that the Government have to impose, I argue that the UK must continue to maintain, at and the Government are making a mistake if they minimum, the UN’s universal human rights standards think that is what the issue is about. This is really and should preferably follow the EU’s approach. But about how to help businesses do their work better. it should also be a first, or at least principal, mover in Good businesses which have a respect for human attempting to gain agreement on regulating digital rights will find that it improves the bottom line just as globalisation, which, as I said, is growing exponentially. much as anything else they might do in other areas. This is not to suggest that it cannot do valuable and I will give a brief example of something that relates meaningful work to expand human rights in its several to that. In an earlier life, I ran a think tank. One of the networks across the Commonwealth, the UN and issues that we looked at was future prospects for other strategic alliances. It should do so with all the trading with China. This was a number of years ago, levers at its disposal: soft power, development assistance in the early 2000s. Labour was in power and through and technical co-operation, within and beyond its the usual channels I was able to get a Cabinet Minister trade deals as they come about. That, in my view, to speak at and open the debates. The audience was would be the balanced and proportionate approach made up largely of businesspeople, because that was post Brexit. the group that we were trying to tempt. When our Cabinet Minister made the introductory remarks, the issue that we were particularly discussing was how our Government could best support the businesses that 6.17 pm were making good and successful efforts to trade with Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab): My Lords, I China, as far as we could tell. start with an apology to the House: I am not my noble The interesting point was that the Cabinet Minister friend Lord McNicol, whose name appears on the concerned—I will not name him because he is still Order Paper. In no sense do I wish to try to substitute around and he may be embarrassed to be reminded of for him; I am afraid the House has me in the raw this—was at pains not to frighten the horses. It was because he had another engagement that he felt that interesting, because he departed from his brief a little. 1887 Human Rights: Future Trade[LORDS] Human Rights: Future Trade 1888

[LORD STEVENSON OF BALMACARA] documents about all this, they are extremely good. His thesis was that he did not want to give the impression I have no complaint with what I have seen on much of that the Government had any view at all about what the writing on this issue. The FCO has taken the businesses did in China. He just thought it was good recommendations made by the UN Human Rights thing that they did it and he was delighted that it was Council and the principles proposed by it under the happening. He and, I think, the 60 or 70 people chairmanship of Professor John Ruggie and built present at the seminar were rather astonished to discover them into its policies. I applaud that. The problem is that that response did not go down well with the that the implementation, which is led largely by BEIS businesspeople, several of whom stood up and said: and DIT, is lamentable. I hope the Minister can give us “Minister, the thing is that you are not doing nearly some hope on how action will be taken to try to enough. When we work in China”—remember, this translate the good words on the printed papers, which was 20 years ago—“we find it a bit difficult if we infuse all the documents that the FCO puts out, and behave in a way that we think we ought to in terms of make them apply when trade deals are being discussed. good business,good practice,human rights and everything However, as others have said, this will not happen else. We discover that that doesn’t go down terribly with our existing systems of parliamentary scrutiny. If well with our government hosts. We want you to get you look at what the EU is currently doing—after all, on a plane and get out there and start arguing the case we are talking about what will be done in the UK after, for human rights a lot more than you are doing at the or if, we leave the EU—it has done a pretty good job moment”. I think that is what the Minister should with trade policy. It has a committee in the parliament have said anyway, but he got the message and went and involves civil society,businesses and consumers—they away somewhat muted by the comments he received. I all play a part. The process may be lumbering and think that business does get this. No preaching is difficult, but it is pretty good and certainly compares required. There is no message to sell. This is just how very well with what we have seen in the UK in the past. we should be doing business and that is the message. The best example is probably the USA, where there is I also want to pick up the point made by my noble a very strong role for Congress, which has control of friend Lord Judd in relation to his tremendous experience the process. The model is one which recommends itself in the field as a human rights practitioner and as a and I hope the Government are looking at it. Minister. He is right to warn us that we should not get Whatever we may say about other models, the hung up on the term “human rights”—that is an status quo of using the CRaG Act, which was mentioned important point. We are talking about the damage by my noble friend Lord Whitty,is simply not acceptable. and suffering to our fellow human beings that can Although post-agreement ratification gives both Houses happen as a result of businesses not being properly of Parliament a chance to discuss these issues, it does organised and run, whatever labels they carry. Of not give us the element of control we need. During the course, the labels help get to the heart of what is consideration of the Trade Bill, an amendment in my happening. It is a question of basic equity and that name had support from all around the House and should always be at the heart of what we are talking from all parties, and was agreed by a significant majority. about. Had it been applied, it would have set up a structure A good example of that is the need to take a very for the future consideration of trade deals which would long-focused lens to this issue. We can and should require either separate committees or a Joint Committee focus on the rights of LGBT people, religious freedoms, in Parliament to agree mandates, receive progress reports labour standards and environmental issues, but we and make recommendations to both Houses about cannot forget the impact of arms sales. The point was whether or not they should approve the resulting trade made by my noble friend Lord Judd. I hope the deal. Can the Minister say where the Government are Minister, when she responds, will update us on where on the Trade Bill and whether that proposal will be we are with Saudi Arabia and the mess that the part of any future discussions? We are a bit short of Government have made on that. time if we are going to move this in a no-deal situation. If she is able, will she agree to meet me to discuss We need to think about investor-state dispute further how we might make progress on this issue? mechanisms. I am not sure that I entirely agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner. I think a whole problem here needs to be unrolled and looked at again, in terms of the rights that are accorded to investors as against those who are affected by decisions 6.26 pm to go into trade agreements. Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, I congratulate What are we going to do about the extractive industries the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, on and the way in which they are often brought in at the securing today’sdebate,which comes at such an opportune wrong time in the development cycle of emerging time—a time of continuity and exploration. I thank countries and as a result perhaps do more damage noble Lords for their contributions to this informative than good? When people are affected by trade agreements debate on human rights and future trade deals. As a which are imposed on them, perhaps without their former project director for a Commonwealth initiative consent, what rights do they have to sue and how and on freedom of religion or belief, as a member of the where will they do that? These are very big issues. International Panel of Parliamentarians for Freedom I have two final points. I agree with the noble of Religion or Belief and after eight years of contributions Baroness, Lady Bottomley, that if you read the close in your Lordships’ House, I am grateful for the detail of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office acknowledgement that this is an area close to my 1889 Human Rights: Future Trade[3 OCTOBER 2019] Human Rights: Future Trade 1890 heart. I am delighted that my first opportunity to It is also important to note that trade and human speak in a debate from the Front Bench is on a subject rights are not mutually exclusive. Trade deals do not such as this. always need trade-offs. Trade is central to global growth Overall, this is a debate about means and not ends. and prosperity, which in turn supports social cohesion, I hope that I will be able to allay some of the fears and political stability and respect for human rights. The frets around this issue. I agree with the noble Baroness, Government will therefore explore how the United Lady Barker, that we need to be watched like a hawk, Kingdomcanmostappropriatelyusefreetradeagreements and I fully expect noble Lords to do that over the to uphold human rights, while recognising the need coming years.I assure the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, for a balanced and proportionate approach. I refer to that we will defend the wronged and the weak who the concluding outline and agree that we need the were described in the poetry he read. balanced and proportionate approach outlined by the The United Kingdom is often referred to as a force noble Baroness, Lady Falkner. It would be easier for for good in the world. We are the country of the parliamentarians, business and civil society groups to and common law and we have enshrined have their voices heard, as these decisions will be here in statute the 0.7% of GNP on overseas aid. We have a in Whitehall, not in Brussels. strong history in protecting fundamental rights and For each country with which the UK is considering freedoms and promoting those values around the world, a trade deal, there will be many opportunities for most notably, as the noble Viscount mentioned, as a consultation and input. At the moment, for instance, permanent member of the Security Council. We are there is a call for inputs with regard to Japan. Japan is the first country to produce a national action plan to obviously not a human rights violator, but I hope implement the UN’s Guiding Principles on Business noble Lords get the point. That is in yellow in my and Human Rights, on which the FCO and BEIS lead brief, so I must say it: Japan does not violate human a co-ordinated cross-Whitehall effort. Central to our rights. However, there is an opportunity, in that process foreign policy is a respect for democracy, the rule of and in future ones, to input in a way that perhaps is law and human rights, and we will continue to advance not the case with the EU at the moment. those values through diplomacy, working with the Also, Her Majesty’sGovernment accepted, in response private sector and supporting civil society, and through to the Joint Committee on Human Rights report on our flagship Magna Carta Fund, which spent £10.6 million this area, that the Select Committee should have, on supporting human rights objectives in the last year. within its remit, the consideration of the Government’s The UK’s exit from the European Union gives us international human rights obligation—again, another an opportunity to promote these values around the opportunity for input which is just down the Corridor. world even more effectively. It allows us to explore the I draw the attention of noble Lords to the outline in best levers that we can use to promote human rights, the very good Library briefing of the system of scrutiny as we will have our own independent trade policy for that there will be. It will be different from treaties that the first time in 50 years. It is a time of exploration and are laid and then debated. There is a difference in the innovation, while of course aiming to maintain continuity treatment of free trade agreements, recognising that of the trade arrangements that we currently participate Parliament’s role will be more extensive. in as a member of the European Union. Noble Lords will also know that the Sanctions and Another way in which the UK as a member of the Anti-Money Laundering Act 2018 provides powers EU has protected human rights through trade—as has for the United Kingdom, after we have left the EU, to been mentioned by the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley—is make secondary legislation to impose sanctions. This through the EU’s Generalised Scheme of Preferences. will include accountability provisions in order to deter Under the scheme, countries are encouraged to abide systematic and serious human rights violations. This is by the principles of 15 international conventions on another domestic tool, which I expect the noble Baroness, human and labour rights, such as the International Lady Cox, and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, will be Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. I take this tenacious in making great use of in the future. opportunity to assure noble Lords that, due to the passing of the legislation in this House of the Taxation The goal is to maximise the benefits of trade, while (Cross-border Trade) Act, those preferences will be ensuring that we stay true to our core values, including replicated into UK law and the eight countries that the promotion and advancement of international human benefit from GSP+ will have those benefits. rights obligations. After Brexit, we will have the In relation to the point raised by the noble Lord, opportunity to promote these values as an independent Lord Judd, on arms, the noble Lord will be aware that champion of free, fair, rules-based international trade, under the three-tier system, even for the least developed striking out to seize the golden opportunities to strengthen countries that get duty-free and quota-free trade with our trading relationship with fast-growing economies us on their exports without us having to allow imports around the world. in return, it is everything but arms. Arms are treated Noble Lords have raised a number of interesting very differently in relation to trade agreements. Much points. To begin with the noble and right reverend of today’s debate has obviously centred on those free Lord, Lord Harries, I should point out, as he outlined trade agreements and how we can balance, on the one correctly, that free trade agreements will be scrutinised hand, signing agreements that maximise trade and, on by Parliament. There will be opportunities for that the other hand, either refraining from entering agreements going forward, and these matters are being brought with those countries that violate human rights, or closer to home. On the concerns he outlined in relation using the agreements that we enter into as a lever to to India and Indonesia, he will see that they are within encourage human rights compliance. the GSP, the current EU system, which, when we exit 1891 Human Rights: Future Trade[LORDS] Human Rights: Future Trade 1892

[BARONESS BERRIDGE] not grow weary; no one will be growing weary in the EU, will be in UK law. Therefore, the opportunities relation to human rights and trade agreements,particularly because I expect that your Lordships’ House will be acting like hawks on us. I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Bottomley for drawing attention to the to make those representations will be there. We will modern slavery issue and how businesses now have to report, and for paying tribute to the work of the former Prime Minister. In preparation for this debate, I asked to see a trade agreement. Thankfully, the officials wisely only photocopied the index, which went to 12 pages. There were 30 chapters, but I am really pleased to note that there were significant human rights protections in them. The environment and climate change also appeared in there and there has been a growing inclusion of labour rights, particularly that there should be no child labour and no enforced labour. As the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said, business knows that this is the right thing. There is obviously now global trading and global communication. I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, that we intend to take a lead on this matter. On having a Joint Committee of both Houses, I do not think that it is in my remit to recommend to parliamentary authorities on my first occasion at the Dispatch Box what they should be doing. I welcome him taking this matter forward and the Government are welcoming the scrutiny. Obviously, it is the whole point that we can scrutinise here at home and there can be more accountability.

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara: I am sorry to intervene so early on, but it is worth reflecting on the use of words here, because it is quite important. The model described as being the one the Government are favouring is very much consultative. The model proposed and indeed agreed by this House as a way of doing trade deals was to provide power to Parliament to set the mandate to review progress and finally to recommend. Does the Minister agree that there is a difference of view here that needs to be bottomed out?

Baroness Berridge: On the process for trade agreements, I can only say that there will be direct communication. The Government agreed in relation to trade agreements that there would be the outline approach, the round report and a close relationship with a specific parliamentary committee in each House. It is obviously not for me to dictate what role Parliament will take and what that arrangement ends up being, as I said in response the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, but the overall principle is, as I am outlining by the various changes, that this will be a matter that the UK will negotiate, not the EU. On the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, the equality protections are enshrined in UK legislation anyway. They will not be affected. Also, any transition of EU standards that have been incorporated into our law under the Equality Acts are there for everyone’s protection. On trade agreements, the GSP includes conventions relating to CEDAW, equal pay and the ICCPR, but I will have to come back to her on her specific question relating to the USA-Mexico type agreement. 1893 Human Rights: Future Trade[3 OCTOBER 2019] Human Rights: Future Trade 1894

Sadly, I will have to write to the noble Baroness, the particular information about the trade Bill at the Lady Cox, on her specific questions on Sudan and moment. I do not know whether it will be in the Nigeria. Nigeria is within the GSP regime, as I stated. Queen’s Speech and what stage it is at, but I will Regulations are already in place on the Syrian sanctions certainly make sure that he is informed about that so that, in the event of us exiting without a deal, the going forward. sanctions regime will be carried over. It is, I repeat, a pleasure and an honour to have this On the other comments from the noble Lords, Lord as my first debate as Minister. I assure your Lordships’ Judd and Lord Stevenson, on the situation in Yemen, House that the Government are considering all options there has been a full apology by the Secretary of State as to how best to advance the cause of environmental, and to the court relating to the arms export licences social and human rights matters in our post-Brexit that were mistakenly given for certain components. An independent trade policy. Today’s debate has made a independent inquiry is under way, led by an independent valuable contribution. The UK has long supported senior official but under the authority of the Permanent the promotion of democracy, the rule of law and Secretary.In the meantime, the system has been changed, human rights and I can state categorically that this so that any applications for licences are dealt with by will continue as we leave the EU. The Government will senior officials and any approval is now made at not pursue trade at the expense of human rights; they ministerial level. I can say nothing further than that can and should be complementary. More trade should there has been an apology, the system has changed not and will not come at the expense of workers’ and we await the outcome of the independent review human rights or the growth of the least developed within the department to advise us on how it happened countries. The Government’s objective is to ensure and what the system should be going forward. that growth and trade, sustainable development and human rights advance hand in hand. It is right that we Lord Judd: I am very grateful to the noble Baroness explore all available policy levers to advance that. I for giving way and for replying on these points. The once again thank noble Lords for their contributions apology may be welcome, but what I am concerned to today’s debate. about is: how did it happen? The point is about whether we have effective measures operating in Whitehall. 6.43 pm Is there a culture within Whitehall where, with a Lord Harries of Pentregarth: I thank all those who situation like that in Yemen, rather than looking at have spoken in this debate. There have been, quite how we can help to overcome the conflict, we are properly, different perspectives on different parts of instead looking at what we can get away with in terms the world and different aspects of human rights. That of our sales to Saudi Arabia? has all been very valuable. I think the message from this debate is really twofold: one general point is the Baroness Berridge: I agree with the noble Lord that crucial importance of continuing to speak up for an apology is not enough. There has been an apology, human rights at this time—we are of course all totally but we must await the outcome of the independent agreed on that—and the second is on looking for the review within the department to know fully how this appropriate mechanism whereby this House can be happened and whether any permanent changes to the involved in the proper scrutiny of trade agreements in systems need to be taken going forward. I have outlined the future. the interim changes that have been made. The Government have brought forward a very useful In relation to the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, I framework—as set out in that House of Lords briefing have hopefully outlined that the GSP system will be and repeated by the Minister—to show that this House coming over and there is a big “Yes” for the eight will be involved in every stage of negotiations, but how countries. will this be fleshed out? The Government have suggested that there might be a new committee, perhaps a special Viscount Waverley: The GSP+? Just for clarification. committee to look at trade agreements in addition to the Joint Committee on Human Rights. Since Brexit may come very soon, can the Minister, in addition to Baroness Berridge: Yes, the GSP+ eight. There is meeting the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, also the GSP, which will be transferring into UK law. I write to noble Lords who have taken part in this say to the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, that we debate to explain how far the Government are along intend to use all the levers at our disposal. I am the road towards setting up this rolling process, because grateful for the outline and the positivity from the we need something in place fairly soon—if Brexit noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, in relation to the role of comes soon—to carry this forward? We would all find business. One can see from what happened, for instance, it helpful to have an update on that. with workers in that companies care about their supply chains and they are important to them. Motion agreed. There have been changes for workers in Bangladesh. I will have to write to the noble Lord, as I do not have House adjourned at 6.45 pm.