Appendix 1

London Assembly Fire, Resilience and Emergency Planning Committee 11 June 2020

Item 9 – COVID-19 – The work of the Strategic Coordination Group and the London Fire Brigade

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): That brings us to our main item of business, a discussion on the COVID-19 Strategic Coordination Group (SCG) and the work of the London Fire Brigade (LFB) at this time.

I welcome our guests, Dr Fiona Twycross, Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience, and Andy Roe, London Fire Commissioner. We also have in attendance Richard Mills, Deputy Commissioner for Safety and Assurance, LFB; Sue Budden, Director of Corporate Services, LFB; Susan Ellison-Bunce, Assistant Director for Strategy and Risk, LFB; and Tim Powell, Assistant Director of People Services, LFB. Thank you all for coming.

Fiona and Andy want to make some brief opening remarks. Fiona, do you want to go first?

Dr Fiona Twycross AM (Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience): Thank you, Chair. Thank you for inviting me to this meeting today. I would particularly like to say welcome to Assembly Member Moore to the Assembly and Assembly Member Arbour to this Committee.

Much has happened since I last met this Committee formally. I am here today as Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience and as Chair of the London Resilience Forum (LRF) to talk both about the work of the LFB and also about London’s response to COVID-19, a disease that has effectively turned all of our worlds upside down.

As the Chair rightly said, today is just three days until the three-year anniversary of the Grenfell Tower fire. It is a fire that should never have happened and remains a tragedy of such magnitude that I personally still find it difficult to comprehend. Today and over the coming weekend, our thoughts and prayers are with the families, friends and community who are grieving and remembering their loved ones. This anniversary comes in difficult and very different circumstances to last year, but no matter what the circumstances, as Londoners, we can never forget that 72 people tragically lost their lives in the Grenfell Tower fire.

To set the scene more generally, if a reminder is required for where we are now, COVID-19 remains the most significant public health crisis our city has faced in living memory. While this is primarily a health emergency, the economic and social impacts clearly pose huge challenges which we must overcome as a city. While we will be talking today about some of the issues including, no doubt, lockdown easing and transition arrangements, it is important to stress that the virus has not gone away. I want to personally thank Londoners who have made monumental sacrifices over the past few weeks and followed the rules. I urge them to continue to do so to help save lives.

I have been the Mayor’s representative on the SCG. I have been involved in co-ordinating the response to COVID-19 on behalf of the Mayor, alongside London’s emergency services, local authorities and the Government, to ensure that the plans are in place for our city to respond to this public health crisis.

I want to thank the Chair of the SCG, John Barradell, who has carried out this role tirelessly and extremely well over the past few months. I want to pay tribute to John and his Co-Chair Eleanor Kelly for all their hard work on behalf of London and Londoners.

We are now moving to new structures to support and address the health, economic and social challenges posed by COVID-19, which I am sure Members will want to discuss further through the meeting. While the work of the SCG has been ongoing, my responsibilities in relation to the LFB have also continued.

I have worked closely with the Commissioner and his team as we have faced the COVID-19 response through the LFB’s lens as well. I know the Commissioner will be talking in much more detail about the challenges and changes the COVID-19 crisis has made to the day-to-day running of the Brigade. However, at this point I would like to say how proud I am of the Brigade for how it has stepped up for London during this crisis. Over 300 Brigade staff have volunteered in roles that have helped save lives and maintained the dignity of the deceased who have tragically passed away as a result of the virus.

There is a lot to cover in today’s meeting and so I will leave my remarks there for the moment. I look forward to answering your questions. Thank you.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): Thank you, Fiona. Andy, do you want to make your opening remarks, Commissioner?

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): I would like to start firstly by thanking the Committee for the opportunity to present the LFB to you for your scrutiny and your questions. I welcome that, as I always do. Again, I would like to welcome Tony formally onto the Committee and I look forward to what I know will be forensic questioning moving ahead. Again, a big hello to Alison [Moore AM], whom I was privileged enough to meet for the first time virtually the other day and we had a really interesting conversation. Welcome to you both and thank you for taking the time to support London and Londoners in the scrutiny you bring to bear on me and my organisation.

I am going to start by reflecting, perhaps as Fiona and Andrew had started to, on the fact that we are near the third anniversary of the Grenfell Tower fire. My thoughts and the thoughts of my organisation are very much with the bereaved, the survivors and the relatives. I am so grateful to have met some of those families because that meeting and those conversations keep me most motivated to drive the change I know must happen in the LFB to ensure that no Londoners ever face a tragedy on that scale again. I accept full responsibility to ensure those changes are made in light of the recommendations that fell from both the inspection report and the Grenfell Tower Inquiry. Despite the challenges of the current period in relation to COVID-19, that change has not stopped. It is still my key priority and it must not stop in the context of this tragic anniversary.

Then the only other thing I would like to say is to place on record my thanks to the fantastic men and women of the LFB who have demonstrated once again in their quality, their courage and their endeavour that they are always there when London and Londoners need them. They have stepped forward in great numbers to reach out to the communities they serve and support them in a time of crisis, whether it was the 300 firefighters I have co-crewing ambulances, whether it was the 150-odd firefighters I had providing dignity at end of life to those people who tragically lost their lives in their own homes, or whether it was my members of staff who run our logistics network and are taking on responsibility for delivering personal protective equipment (PPE) across local authorities in London and only last Friday delivered their 10 millionth piece of PPE. It demonstrates that, regardless of the great institutional change that must come to the LFB its culture and its systems and the way we lead people and the way we train people to ensure a tragedy like Grenfell does not happen again, we must never doubt the quality of our people. That change is so important to ensure we honour their commitment, their courage, their endeavour, their loyalty and their service to London.

I would like to leave it there, Chair, and, as ever, willingly open myself up to the questions of this Committee to ensure I am held to that promise. Thank you.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): Thank you for that, Commissioner. Obviously, there is still a job to be done in rebuilding the confidence of the Grenfell community in the LFB and you have made a very good start in relation to that. What is particularly tragic is the statistics that came out this morning about the number of tall buildings still awaiting remediation. Nationwide, there are 300 still with aluminium composite material (ACM). For the first time the Government has published regional figures, which show that there are 247 un-remediated buildings in London, of which only 34 have seen works begin, and only 50 have been fixed so far. Most of those are overwhelmingly in the private sector. There is still a huge job to be done. The Government did set June 2020 - now - as the target and it is clearly not going to be reached. There is still a huge job to be done in making Londoners who live in tall buildings safe in their homes.

I want to go on to start, Fiona, with the SCG. Perhaps I could ask you in what ways the SCG has developed over the past few months as the pandemic evolved, what have been the main challenges, and are there any plans to put the SCG on a more permanent footing with funding attached?

Dr Fiona Twycross AM (Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience): Thank you, Chair. As you will be aware, the SCG has now been up and running for three months. This is an unprecedented length of time for an SCG. It is not really the normal structures that we would have for an SCG and so it has developed over time.

Very early on - in the first formal meeting of the SCG - it was recognised that the health emergency had system-wide implications and so it became a body that was chaired by John Barradell with Eleanor Kelly as Co- Chair to reflect the system-wide impacts. As it has gone through, the subgroups and the priorities and the risks that have been prioritised by the SCG have reflected the emerging risks and priorities that have come up through the pandemic.

The SCG will morph into the Transition Management Group that will sit under the Transition Management Board as part of the new longer-term arrangement. This will ensure that we have things on a sound footing. We are looking to have people on longer-term secondments rather than on a more ad hoc basis. We have done a lot of preparatory work for the next phase. The SCG is still up and running at least for the next few weeks while we see what the implications of the easing of lockdown remain, but it is planned for us to move into a more firm footing as the Transition Management Board as we enter into the next phase, with the proviso that should things require it, the SCG will be stepped up again to deal with any future waves should that be required.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): Those are two important issues I want to come back to, but before I do that, looking back briefly over the last few months, when did the SCG become aware that the spread of coronavirus in care homes was a major problem and what were the major obstacles to improving protections for care home residents against the virus?

Dr Fiona Twycross AM (Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience): I do not have the precise date for when the SCG first discussed care homes, but throughout, as it has been in the media, the issue of care homes and the need to plan for care homes has been discussed. It has been something that has been a strand of work through the SCG.

Sorry, what was the second part of that question, Chair?

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): What were the major obstacles to improving protection for care home residents?

Dr Fiona Twycross AM (Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience): I do not have specifics on that. I would suggest that the major obstacles in terms of care homes would probably be something that you might like to talk about with those people who have been leading that particular strand of work.

The issue for care homes is clearly that they tend to house the most vulnerable people. The SCG has really been focused on making sure that the most vulnerable people are protected and, actually, making sure that care homes got the PPE they needed was one of the key strands of the work that the LFB has led on through the distribution of PPE and making sure that we get protection across that. Clearly, at the moment we now have the additional test and trace in care homes, where we are looking at making sure that, whether you are asymptomatic or symptomatic in care homes, we have additional testing available to make sure that we can address things as they arise and that we look at protecting care homes going forward.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): Perhaps you could drop us a line on the detail going back, which you cannot answer now.

Dr Fiona Twycross AM (Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience): Yes, I can do that.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): That really brings me to the next question. What documents has the SCG produced in relation to the impact various lockdown easings would have in London and to what extent has the Government taken that into consideration?

Dr Fiona Twycross AM (Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience): The Government is represented on the SCG through the Government liaison officers and they have been a key part of the discussion through the SCG. We currently have a senior officer from the Metropolitan Police Service (MPS), who has been working on looking at what the implications are of lockdown easing. We do not have formal published documents, but the Government would have seen all the documents, as well as being part of that ongoing discussion about the risks associated with the easing of lockdown, particularly in London, where we have a very high reliance on public transport, for example. We do believe that the issues highlighted around public transport both through the SCG and by the Mayor have influenced the Government in respect of the advice that has now come out on face coverings on public transport.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): There have not been any formal documents at the SCG on the impact of lockdown easing?

Dr Fiona Twycross AM (Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience): I thought I had said that there have been. There have been regular documents to the SCG on lockdown easing through a piece of work specifically on this by the MPS. The Greater London Authority (GLA) has also been doing considerable work on lockdown easing. These documents have been fed through to the Government through the Government liaison officers.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): Are those documents confidential?

Dr Fiona Twycross AM (Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience): Yes, they would be classified as official- sensitive.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): What are the key challenges in London for the easing of lockdown and how is the SCG supporting test and trace?

Dr Fiona Twycross AM (Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience): The key challenges, as I mentioned, are around the reliance we have on public transport in London. The reliance of London on transport is quite

considerable, clearly, and that means that our challenges are different to other parts of the country, not least in relation to the reliance on public transport for people getting to work. That is one of the key challenges.

The other challenge is really how we get the balance right between protecting people and protecting public health and making sure that London can get back to a semblance of normality. Clearly, public health has to be at the heart of this and the health of Londoners has to be at the heart of this, but we also need to make sure that we do look at how we get the economy back and running.

The test and trace will be a vital part of this and making sure that we get the local plans right so that, where local government has been asked to get their own plans in place for future outbreaks ., we can make sure that those sit comfortably alongside the process, but that test and trace ramps up and that people understand the importance of following the advice they are then given if they are contacted about self-isolation will be key. We have seen that where countries have successfully come out of lockdown, that test and trace approach is vital.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): Thanks for that. My two boroughs, Barnet and Camden, are both participating in the first stages of this. One of the things that is quite key to this is the question of the app, which has been trialled on the Isle of Wight and which the Government seems to have gone very quiet about. We have not heard anything about that for about a month, I think. What is happening in relation to the app?

Dr Fiona Twycross AM (Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience): I understand that it is due to come out in the autumn. What I would say about the app is that it is only one aspect of the test and trace programme. Actually, it is the calls and the call centres where we have people who are getting in touch with people and that people have been contacted is the most vital part of it.

When we get an app that works, we will all support it and we would be looking to the Assembly to be part of a cross-party push to make sure people take up the app, but we have raised concerns that the app, although it might work on an island, may not work here. It is reliant on Bluetooth and we actually need to get that right. We can all imagine what would happen in a tower block where you are reliant on Bluetooth. You might get inaccurate readings or people who have not been in contact with people being told that they have come into close contact with people. It is more important that we get the app right for when we need it for the autumn than that we rush it out before we are ready.

The test and trace and isolate programme is not reliant on the app, nor should it be, because we cannot have a system that is entirely reliant on people having the right technology and downloading an app to protect the public. It will be a useful arm in that when we get to that stage of the outbreak going forward.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): The LRF is having an interim review this month. Can you give us some more detail on what that is going to include and who is going to be involved and what the timescales are?

Dr Fiona Twycross AM (Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience): The LRF is meeting this afternoon. We are going to discuss people’s initial views on the first phase at that. The LRF itself is looking at the longer- term implications and what we can learn from it for similar events or learning in the future. I would say a lot of it is quite technical. It is about the physical aspects of how to work in a pandemic and how to manage to do those communications and the technical side of things.

What I would say from the perspective of somebody who has had the honour of chairing the LRF for four years now and what I am going to say to the LRF this afternoon is how grateful I am for everybody in terms of doing their work. It is important that we learn lessons for the next phase, but I am also going to take the opportunity

to thank people for an incredible effort in which people have really driven forward the London response in very difficult circumstances.

One of the things I noted when I was reading through the LRF’s minutes in preparation for the meeting this afternoon is that at the meeting in February [2020] we signed off a COVID-19 response framework that reflected the flu pandemic but adapted that for how we might see it for COVID-19. Emergency planners’ advice would always be that an emergency never exactly follows the plan and we have relied on a number of different plans to carry out the response.

The review itself focused on learning across three areas: initial learning for organisations, cross-sector learning where there are interdependencies between subgroups or organisations, and learning related to structures and operation of the SCG and the Tactical Coordinating Group (TCG) as a system. The cross-sector or system-wide learning will be discussed and embedded by the SCG to review an action prior to any future waves. Initial discussions took place on that yesterday. The LRF review is really focused on the learning for this and subsequent incidents and so we are looking at longer term issues that will require decisions potentially on funding, responsibilities and structures for future incidents. We have seen over the last few years that we have had a number of incidents that have required a much longer-term response than we would normally expect for civil contingencies incidents.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): What are the key learnings that you think will be taken away?

Dr Fiona Twycross AM (Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience): I am reluctant as Chair to prejudge the discussion this afternoon, but I would be happy to brief you and others from this Committee informally afterwards if that is helpful.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): That would be helpful. We were talking about having another informal sometime in July [2020].

Dr Fiona Twycross AM (Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience): Yes, that would be helpful. What I would suggest is that I am not Chair of the SCG and so it might be helpful to involve John Barradell in that discussion as well so that you get a discussion about all the issues in the round.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): OK. A last question from me before I bring Tony [Arbour AM] in on the next section: if there were to be a second outbreak in London, what would be the SCG’s role in implementing a localised lockdown?

Dr Fiona Twycross AM (Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience): That is not really for the SCG. That would be local authorities in discussion with Public Health England (PHE). On that, the SCG would potentially have an oversight role to make sure that the local outbreak plans are working on a London-wide basis. They would not have a direct role in that. That would be down to the boroughs in discussion with PHE, although quite clearly the SCG, the Transition Management Group and the Government liaison officers would be keenly interested, as would I, in how those work in practice.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): Can we move on, then, to Tony, who is going to talk about the LFB Transformation Delivery Plan?

Tony Arbour AM: Thanks, Chair. It is nice to be back. I first was connected with fire, of course, when I was on the old Fire Brigade Committee at the Greater London Council (GLC). I have to say that there certainly has been a transformation from those days.

I wonder, Commissioner, if you can tell us what has actually happened, given that, if you like, the normal process of change has been interrupted by COVID-19, with regard to implementing the Transformation Plan?

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): Actually, work is progressing across the entirety of the action plan and against that detailed action plan you have seen. Of the original 65 actions in the plan, good progress is being made with 19 actions now completed, which includes the cultural audit, definitions of the leadership requirements, a review of the organisational structure, and fundamental change to our structure to a fuller directorate structure now, the appointment on 1 June [2020] of Fiona Dolman, our Transformation Director, a review of governance, an alignment of the three-year information and communication technology (ICT) strategy within the transformation delivery plan, and provision of long-term support to the Government’s building safety programme.

Some activities have inevitably been impacted by the COVID-19 pandemic but it has not stopped work being progressed. Rather we have started from the position of not what we stop, but how we deliver it differently.

I would suggest the most significant delay, though, is the delivery of training to support the revised policies for high-rise firefighting and fire survival guidance and the new emergency evacuation and mass rescue policy, which causes me some anxiety in the context of the risk picture that exists in London, but that is inevitable because good delivery of those policies and our instant response based on them is manifest in very large-scale group face-to-face training. The delivery of that suite of training now includes both computer-based training (CBT) and practical elements. We are working it up in this new environment with perhaps virtual reality doing part of it and, most importantly, now agreeing with colleagues in the representative bodies on how we are going to resume face-to-face group training at the earliest opportunity with some activities stepping up from this week. Therefore, that particular item is now due to be delivered and completed by September 2020, whereas prior to the pandemic this had a delivery date of July 2020.

I hope that gives you a snapshot of the fact that we are progressing with energy the transformation plan. We are completing actions wherever possible and we are seeking to change the way we deliver them if challenged by COVID-19 to ensure we do not lose progress on this.

Tony Arbour AM: Let me get this right. In effect, you are saying that COVID-19 has affected only the training part of the transformation plan?

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): It is not just training. Training is the most significant issue in terms of impact because that is the most visible piece, but anywhere we have needed face-to-face contact with people to deliver parts of the plan, we have had to amend how we think. For example, the work around inclusion and leadership, whilst not delayed, would have had a greater impact earlier if we had been able to deliver big bits of it through face-to-face engagement.

We are doing really well in terms of amending how we deal with things and so a lot of that is now happening virtually. For example, we briefed all heads of service this morning on the inclusion strategy and the togetherness strategy, which sits at the heart of the changing culture, and we have seen some really positive impacts.

It is easy to focus on delay, but other things have been brought forward. For example, I have nearly 1,000 members of staff working remotely really successfully. We will never return to our office environment in the way we did before. That is a positive change in culture, our managers are reporting back to me. Although it is too early to point to a real evidential shift in our culture, they are reporting greater flexibility and willingness to adapt. The fact that we have 300 firefighters crewing ambulances and that we secured agreement with the

Fire Brigades Union (FBU) over the process of two weeks is a real indication of how change can happen when it really needs to happen.

It is a mix of things. Some things have been delayed but I am certain that we will deliver our plan because we have to. I will take you back to my opening statement: the [Grenfell} anniversary this weekend is the starkest reminder that whole sections of London communities were let down and I will not be satisfied until that change is delivered. COVID-19 does not stop that.

Tony Arbour AM: In effect, you are saying that already, supposing - heaven forfend - that there was another Grenfell, you are now in a position because of the actions taken under the transformation plan to deal with the thing completely differently?

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): Yes. We are already in a different place in terms of incident response. Good training is a continuous journey and so we will continue to build on it. For example, Richard [Mills] has been working hard with the colleagues that he leads to plan an urban firefighting course, which might be delivered in a year and a half to two years’ time. It will be a week-long course delivered every two years for firefighters, residential potentially. That is absolutely world-leading if we do that and it will take time to get there. However, in the interim, I am already very certain that if one of my incident commanders arrives at a high-rise incident tonight, they will already be in a better place to take earlier decisions around the state of that building and what they might need to do in response to it. We are all operating with a different understanding of the risk environment and we have already started providing training in a staged way to meet that need.

Richard, can I bring you in just to give a bit of detail around that staged process? Would that be helpful, Tony?

Tony Arbour AM: Yes, it would.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): OK. Richard Mills.

Richard Mills (Deputy Commissioner – Safety and Assurance, London Fire Brigade): Thank you. The process was briefly described by the Commissioner. We are looking at a three-phase process.

First of all, in addition to the high-rise policy, there are two other key policies that feed into that, the evacuation policy and the fire survival guidance policy. The first phase will be CBT that we will roll out across the whole workforce and that will be three packages, one for each one, the evacuation policy being a new policy for the LFB in its entirety.

Then, when we start looking at phase two, that will be some practical applications. We are very cognisant of the fact that COVID-19 has had an impact on how we can deliver the training and so it will be CBT first and foremost. We are progressing that as we speak. Some of that will be about assessment to make sure that they are viewing and understanding the CBT that is being provided. Phase two will be exercising and testing. That will be through local borough-based initiatives with high-rise buildings to allow both firefighters and officers at all levels of the organisation the ability to consolidate some of their learning through the policies that they have done.

Then the Commissioner mentioned about the urban firefighting course. That is an aspiration that we are working towards. We are looking at having a training course that will allow you to reaffirm your skills as a professional firefighter, whether that is every two years or every three years, which would be a protracted

course to allow you to look at a whole host of capabilities and a whole host of fire scenarios in a practical environment where, if possible, we have fire simulation as being key to that.

One of the other things to mention is also about virtual reality training. One of the things that has been highlighted to us - and to emphasise the point from the Commissioner - is around the way in which we carry out some of our training particularly in this kind of environment. Virtual reality is being looked at by us currently because we recognise that only provides the advantage of some consistency of exercising. It can put people in an environment that can be monitored recorded and we can look at human behaviours and interactions in extreme environments. Exercising and testing is very expensive. For those Assembly Members and the Chair who came and saw the exercise take place, we are relying on the built environment to deliver us what we need. Virtual reality will allow people to test in really extreme environments for major incidents, counterterrorism environments and anything that is unusual. We are very keen to explore that. Not only would it allow us to be more cost-effective in how we deliver our training, but it will allow consistency in some scenarios that cannot be simulated as effectively as we would like.

Tony Arbour AM: OK. It is quite clear that you are coping. Commissioner, can I ask you, given that you are making such magnificent progress without a new Director of Transformation, do you really need her?

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): Do we need Fiona [Dolman]? Yes, definitely.

Tony Arbour AM: What is she going to do that you have not succeeded in doing already?

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): She is going to provide challenge and she is going to provide us with the experience of having led transformation in a number of other organisations with a view that is outside of the fire service. This Committee would rightfully recognise that part of our problem, as highlighted in both the Inquiry and the reports, is that we were too insular in our thinking and were not open to challenge. Much of the change you are talking about is as a result of the challenge we have faced from those reports and this Committee. Challenge drives innovation. We need someone internally who is going to provide us that rigour and that challenge and tie what is a very complicated transformation plan together and give us that expertise. I am very clear that that is a post that was vital for us to ensure that change is not just a one-hit programme but is a process of continuous improvement embedded in the culture of the Brigade. I am not sure we have the internal expertise to do that, actually.

Tony Arbour AM: That is interesting. I did say at the last meeting I attended, when we were discussing this, that all of this appears to be a continuous revolution and I am not certain that that really is the way to deal with it, because of course this Committee thinks that it is challenging you and looking at it.

Can I ask Susan in respect of the four pillars, are we progressing equally on all of them or is there any slippage?

Susan Ellison-Bunce (Assistant Director for Strategy and Risk, London Fire Brigade): Thank you. The impact of COVID-19 is spread fairly consistently across the four pillars, to be honest. There is not one that is at particular risk over and above any of the others. Some of the training impacts that the Commissioner referred to earlier appear under a number of the pillars, as do some of the engagement processes, both internal and external.

Tony Arbour AM: All right. Thank you, Chair. In the Commissioner’s initial response, we have covered the other questions I was expected to ask and so thanks very much.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): . Thank you, Tony. Commissioner, perhaps when we have our informal [meeting] in July [2020] we can have Fiona Dolman participate in that so that, after a month or so, we can see what she has been able to achieve and what her plans are.

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): Yes, that would be a good idea. Thank you.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): Before we move on, thank you for giving us a draft copy of the transformation plan albeit under embargo. When do you think we are going to get the signed-off version?

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): We are working with City Hall at the moment to clear that through the Mayor’s office because we report formally to the Mayor, to Her Majesty’s Inspector of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services (HMICFRS) and to the Home Office. There is a complex piece of governance there to enable that and I cannot give you an absolute date at this point. I can assure you we are working to clear it at the earliest opportunity with both City Hall and other colleagues in the Government.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): Hopefully, once it is published, we can see regular updates on progress against it.

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): It is very important for this Committee to see that, yes. We need to work hard to ensure there is that transparency to the progress of the plan.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): Also, on the metrics, a lot of the problems we have had before have been woods and trees. Are we going to have metrics as part of this that actually mean something?

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): Yes, that is one of my key priorities. In the past, we have consistently reported that we were meeting all of our own targets and yet somehow, we still found ourselves in this situation. The metrics that come forward need to be fewer, simpler and far more focused on what London and Londoners need and what our service means to them. We are struggling on working with that now. One of the first things that Fiona must help enable the organisation to do is to define exactly what we mean to London and Londoners and the most important elements against which we should be judged.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): Thank you for that. Now I am going to bring in Alison to talk about COVID- 19 and the work of the Brigade.

Dr Alison Moore AM: Thank you very much, Chair. My first set of questions is for the Commissioner.

I would just like to put on record my thanks to you for having that Zoom meeting recently because it helped me to get up to speed rapidly with some of your challenges. Thank you to Barnet’s Borough Commander also, who enabled me to have a site visit to my local Finchley fire station, suitably distanced. Thanks to him and his staff for their time yesterday morning. It was invaluable in preparing for this.

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): I will pass that on.

Dr Alison Moore AM: Thank you.

The first question is: how has the impact of COVID-19 on staffing levels at LFB affected the delivery of services including some of your non-critical activities and what planning is taking place for this work to be reinstated?

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): We have a very detailed plan in terms of stepping our core activities back up, whether that is training, whether it is our prevention work in communities or whether it is our statutory advice in respect to fire safety. Because of the need to social distance to protect the most vulnerable in society, we stopped a lot of those activities in line with Government guidance. That is what gave us the capacity, in terms of a relatively small service serving a very large city, to step into other spaces such as driving ambulances and crewing them and such as providing dignity at end of life as part of the multiagency team.

It is my aim to continue that support as part of COVID-19’s continued pan-London response but in a different way to ensure we can step our core activities back up. We are working, for example, with the London Ambulance Service (LAS) to now build a bank of firefighters, we hope, who will work on their off-duty days, paid for by health, to continue providing support to the LAS. Those talks are progressing well. We will therefore have the capacity to step those other activities up while maintaining support for COVID-19.

Now might be a useful time to turn to Tim, my new Director for People He can talk about the impact on our staff in terms of sickness and wellness and perhaps equalities as well. That is the other side of that question.

Dr Alison Moore AM: If you could in answering that touch on to what extent the prearranged overtime is continuing to be used, how suitable that is, how sustainable it is and what the cost implications are?

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): Tim Powell.

Tim Powell (Assistant Director, People Services, London Fire Brigade): Thank you, Andy. Hi, Alison. At the outset of this, we understood that there might be some significant challenges around our workforce and we contingency planned for potentially having as much as 30% of our workforce away from work either due to sickness or due to self-isolation issues.

That has never materialised for us, actually. We took a very bold decision to stand down our attendance policy at the outset of COVID-19 because we did not want people to feel particularly disadvantaged because of an attendance policy. We wanted people to make the right moral decisions around staying away from work if they needed to do so. It is fair to say that our workforce, supported by our union, have been admirable in the way that they have conducted themselves during all of that.

We have not seen large numbers of people sick. In total we have had 43 employees who have had a period of sickness due to confirmed COVID-19 cases. All of those have returned to work. We have three who are sick at the moment. Our self-isolation figures at the outset raised to almost 500 staff, which is about 10% of our workforce. We have seen that periodically come down and, as we sit here today, we have 160 members of operational staff who are self-isolating due to COVID-19. We have seen a slight increase in that over the last two weeks since track and trace has been introduced but, again, not significant numbers.

We have managed to maintain a level of operational resilience and resilience across our administrative workforce as we have gone through COVID-19. We have been able to support employees quite strongly through all of that through really good communications internally both to our employees and to our managers so that they are really clear at all stages what they have needed to do if they experience symptoms, if they live with somebody who has symptoms, or if they live with somebody who is vulnerable and needs shielding. We have been very supportive around our workforce in that.

Deputy Commissioner Mills and I have a weekly telephone conference with the trade unions just to make sure that from their point of view everything is in line and that their members feel like they are getting supported as well. That has been really useful.

Dr Alison Moore AM: That is really helpful. Thank you. On the overtime, that has been working to help that situation, I take it, because that is the prearranged overtime?

Tim Powell (Assistant Director, People Services, London Fire Brigade): Yes, the prearranged overtime that we have put in place has helped in terms of both our own internal operational resilience as well as what Commissioner Roe has discussed in terms of our support of the LAS. That has helped quite significantly as well, and we have seen lots of staff really willingly step up to the plate in in terms of that. We were worried about numbers at the outset but, again, our staff have recognised a responsibility in terms of doing this and availing themselves to work where they have needed to.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): Before you go on, Alison, you asked about the costing of prearranged overtime.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): Sue Budden is probably in the best place to answer that one.

Dr Alison Moore AM: Yes, on the cost implications of the prearranged overtime.

Sue Budden (Director of Corporate Services, London Fire Brigade): Thank you, Chair. As Tim has indicated, our usage of prearranged overtime to backfill for absence has been relatively low. Our current forecast is only around £100,000 for additional prearranged overtime linked to those staff absences. There are other staff costs for the cost of the people who have volunteered to do the ambulance driving assist and then the Pandemic Multiagency Response Teams (PMART) work that we were doing.

In terms of your specific question about prearranged overtime to cover absence, that is quite low.

Dr Alison Moore AM: In terms of the PMART and other support work, what costs are you looking at there?

Sue Budden (Director of Corporate Services, London Fire Brigade): Those costs are around £1.4 million for the volunteers we have had working for the ambulance driving assist and then the PMART. Dr Alison Moore AM: Thank you.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): Sue, are we going to get any of that money back from LAS?

Sue Budden (Director of Corporate Services, London Fire Brigade): As Richard or Andy might have said, as we are looking forward to extending the ambulance driver assist, we would look potentially to seek cost recovery from the LAS. Those conversations are ongoing. For the moment, there is money that you might be aware of that was allocated to the GLA from the Ministry for Housing, Communities and Local Government (MGCLG), and then the Home Office also has a specific pot to help fire and rescue authorities (FRAs) around COVID-19 costs. We are in discussions with both of them about how we might access those pots to fund the money that we have spent so far.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): Thank you. Alison.

Dr Alison Moore AM: The issue around PPE and testing is one that has been very current. Are you content, Commissioner, that firefighters now have access to adequate coronavirus testing and adequate PPE? Do you think that is going to be available for you in the future?

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): They are two separate questions. I have always had confidence in the PPE because of the effort that Sue’s people have put into ensuring we both identify and secure resilient supply lines for PPE. I am not aware of any incident where there has been a firefighter, either crewing an ambulance or doing frontline firefighting duties, not having the right PPE available. Whilst that has been a real challenge for Sue, and in particular our head of procurement, they have worked tirelessly to ensure we were able to provide that safety net for our staff. I am really grateful to Sue and I would like to place my thanks on record here.

In terms of testing, we are part of the bigger national picture. That is probably the truthful answer. There is some way to go around testing before we can be confident and sure that we have both the availability and the systems that mean we can truly say our staff are confident in that. We are working very closely with colleagues in the SCG from PHE and the National Health Service (NHS) to ensure that our people get good availability to the testing regime that is in place and making positive suggestions as to how it might be improved in terms of what our staff need.

Dr Alison Moore AM: How are you supporting the wellbeing of staff including those working with other emergency services and in particular perhaps those working with the PMART teams? That is an emotionally challenging situation.

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): We have a really significant psychological health offer in the LFB and we have done everything we can in what is quite a challenging virtual environment to widen that and make it available to any member of staff who needs it. Maybe Tim could give us a little bit more detail if that would help you, Alison.

Dr Alison Moore AM: That would be helpful, yes.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): Tim.

Tim Powell (Assistant Director, People Services, London Fire Brigade): We have a well-established wellbeing offer to our staff, which includes a professional counselling and trauma team, particularly in relation to the people who have undertaken the PMART duties where they have been potentially exposed to some quite challenging situations. On the back of every shift, there has been contact made with them by a trained individual so that they can discuss their experiences and so forth. That has in some cases led to some proper counselling and some trauma counselling. I know everybody has been really appreciative of the support they have received around that and I know that the other emergency services have looked at what we have done and are looking to replicate what we have implemented for our firefighter crews in that regard.

I suppose it is one of those things you are always restless about and whether you can ever do enough for people, but we have built in, again in consultation with our unions, a very strong wellbeing offer to the staff, particularly those who are doing different duties at times and have been exposed to things that they would not necessarily have been exposed to during this time.

Dr Alison Moore AM: That is really helpful. Thank you. How is the Brigade planning post-COVID, Andy, and what work is being prioritised in terms of planning your forward activity?

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): In terms of the most important part of the Brigade, which is our contact with communities and our service into communities, we have a really detailed plan about how we step that up appropriately in line with Government guidance, ensuring that both the most vulnerable in our communities and our own staff are safe in the delivery of that service.

It is probably worth going to Richard to perhaps give you some detail on that and give you an example of the level of detail has gone into the planning to step up our response in stages across prevention, protection and incident response itself.

Dr Alison Moore AM: OK. Thank you.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): Richard.

Richard Mills (Deputy Commissioner – Safety and Assurance, London Fire Brigade): There is the wider piece of work that we have done as an organisation around the learning and the lessons learned about how we deliver our services differently in the future. During the pandemic we have recognised about the safety of the community and how we provide better service. There have been occasions where either we have not had access to buildings or people have not wanted us to access some of those buildings for various reasons because of COVID.

We have put in place things like desktop reviews around fire safety. We have a new tool around home fire safety visits that is on our computer. People can log on and do a self-assessment. We have provided our crews with the tools as part of that desktop review to record it on our operational database and then revisit that premises in two to three months’ time to ensure that we do go back to those areas of greatest risk. We are looking to also reimplement our vehicles that we take out of service on strategic resource and so that will be re implemented in July [2020}.

That will start to create a capacity to increase the level of involvement with our communities. We will start to look at how we can best engage those communities and embed ourselves better within the community itself and also about the process that we need to start doing about the best way to open up our fire stations again to invite the community in. It has to be very much measured around social distancing and we will be very cognisant of the advice that is being provided by Government all the way throughout. We will basically do it in the stages. We are very mindful that if we have a second phase of COVID-19 we may need to switch some of those services off, but we do and are doing everything we possibly can to engage with the community in a virtual way. We have extra community engagement with schools. We recently did a walk around a fire station virtually that people could download and see to help schools coming back into the community. There are many things that we are trying to do but we will be doing them in stages to reflect the gradual opening up of London as well.

Dr Alison Moore AM: Thank you. I am conscious that particularly domestic fire safety is an area that will becoming increasingly a focus because you have whole sets of families in straightened circumstances under lockdown or difficult circumstances.

I would like to move on to training. That was something that you touched on a little in the previous section, but I wanted to ask more specifically about the outcome of the work with Babcock to review your training and deliver sustainable ICT-based packages to mitigate the COVID-19 impact on the training. Is there is anything more that you would like to add from your answer in question 2?

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): It is very early on in that review process to be able to give you anything definite, but the assurance I would provide this Committee is that training, like any other aspect of the Brigade, is being looked at with a with a rigour to ensure that we deliver the priorities, both those within the transformation plan and, most pointedly, those highlighted in the inspection and inquiry reports.

Training sits at the heart of transformation, whether it is around leadership, whether it is around culture, whether it is around our operational delivery. We cannot invest too much in training, to be honest with you.

One of the problems in the past has been that we have not always recognised the level of investment that is needed in training.

Tim, is there anything you would like to add because, again, you are at the heart of this in terms of that review and in terms of bringing in outside scrutiny to consider whether we could do better or more imaginatively in terms of our training delivery?

Tim Powell (Assistant Director, People Services, London Fire Brigade): I have not too much to add on, Andy. You said it right. We are having ongoing conversations with Babcock about how they can provide alternative delivery methods, which is a combination of virtual classroom, virtual or extended reality and simulation scenarios to make sure that the training has resilience, particularly if we see further waves of COVID-19 affect training. We are stepping lots of our critical skills training back up now, and we will be able to recover some of the ground that we have missed around that.

However, it is important that we recognise that the training function within LFB has probably grown and developed organically over a number of years. The interface with Babcock could look different. To build on what Andy said then, I have engaged the help of somebody from the Ministry of Defence, which also uses Babcock, to have a look at our training and the interface and see whether or not it does what it needs to do in terms of that step change Andy has described in relation to transformation. I have to say that both my training team and Babcock are very engaged in that process.

Dr Alison Moore AM: Thank you. That is really helpful. I had the opportunity yesterday at a local fire station to see some of the ways in which they are trying to put that into place locally. They are fortunate. They have a little bit more space than some of the older fire stations, but that was very impressive. I got to talk to a number of staff at different levels within the organisation on how they are engaging with it. Thank you. It is very helpful to hear both ends of that story.

Finally, on training, did you meet the target to deliver the required training to control room operators? That was clearly a recommendation in the Grenfell Tower inquiry phase one report. The deadline was June 2020. Were you able to make that?

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): My understanding is, yes, we did. Richard, can you confirm that, please, in terms of the detail?

Richard Mills (Deputy Commissioner – Safety and Assurance, London Fire Brigade): Certainly. Some of the recommendations were around fire survival guidance within the inquiry. The Assistant Commissioner for Control and Mobilising has put the plan into place, and we are confident that that training has taken place. It also forms part of the recruitment training that is now in place to increase the number of control operators we have.

I can quite happily provide further assurance on the control improvement plan as it progresses. We gave an update at the last FREP meeting, but I will happily confirm all the other actions have been done.

Dr Alison Moore AM: Forgive me. This is my first. Thank you very much for that. Richard Mills (Deputy Commissioner – Safety and Assurance, London Fire Brigade): That is fine, yes.

Dr Alison Moore AM: Then finally, moving on to two little two questions about other service areas for the Deputy Mayor, if I may, Fiona. How successful have the PMART teams been in strengthening London’s capacity to process those COVID deaths and provide that support to bereaved families?

Dr Fiona Twycross AM (Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience): I would just like to add to what I said at the beginning about the number of ways that the Brigade has supported the work of the COVID-19 response. PMART was a cross-agency piece of work where we had people coming in from across different agencies to support the process of bereavement in the community. It was very successful. Tim has already outlined the fact that it was quite a stressful process, but the success of the process was actually reflected in the fact that other parts of the country came to observe and learn.

I had the opportunity to go and talk to PMART teams based in the city of London, talk to the people who were doing the phone calls and hear a debrief about some of the issues they had faced in the previous days. I had that sense of how it was working in practice. What I met from the professional side was a group of highly committed professionals. One of the firefighters after I asked why they had volunteered to do it said, “Well, somebody had to do it and I thought it was my opportunity to do something for London.” I met volunteers from Camden Council. A woman who had recently retired was a palliative care specialist. There was a recently qualified dental dentist who was not able to work because dentists at the time were closed. These were hugely committed Londoners, all of whom felt it was really important to play their part in supporting the response to the pandemic.

It was effective. They did have to implement learning as they went on, but the success of the PMART approach, which is there to step back up if it should be required in response to future potential waves, was that it really brought together people and added an additional element to making sure that those deaths in the community could be responded to in an appropriate way, bearing in mind the need for it to be COVID-19 secure and to make sure that it was as robust as possible and supported the response overall.

Dr Alison Moore AM: That is really helpful. Thank you. It has been one of the unusual and new parts of the process. For the Commissioner, on the back of that, how are you going to ensure that the welcome support for the LAS does not affect those core Brigade activities going forward?

Dr Fiona Twycross AM (Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience): I will hand over to the Commissioner for this, but this has been one of the central tenets all the way through. The Brigade has been able to undertake this work only because they have had to step back from some of the projects they would normally undertake in the community, for example, and some of the training. The central tenet of being able to do this is that it does not affect core business. The comparatively low level of sickness compared to what had been predicted may be the case early on, has meant that the Brigade has been able to step up and do this work throughout this first wave. I will hand over to Commissioner.

Dr Alison Moore AM: Thank you.

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): There are two parts to this answer. The first is that it is my intent to carry on our support to the LAS because we can see that this crisis is continuing for the long term and there will possibly be surges in demand in terms of the support, we need to provide other agencies across London. We need to build a system that ensures we can continue to provide our statutory provision, which at the end of the day is the most important thing.

As Commissioner, I have legal and moral obligations to the people of London in terms of delivery of our service, particularly if you again think about the third anniversary of Grenfell. I know that there will be a way for me to do both and I am working with colleagues in representative bodies and other agencies to find a way to ensure I have the capacity day to day to do what I must do for London and Londoners, and then think of a different way, again funded by the people who are appropriate to fund it, whether that is health or other parts of the multiagency partnership, those other services that we would be foolish to step away from. We have

demonstrated the very useful skills that firefighters and the LFB have to offer London and Londoners and we should not shut that down.

I hope that answers your question. What I would say is that there is detailed planning going on to enable both things to happen.

Dr Alison Moore AM: Thank you. It certainly seems to have demonstrated that wider range of skills that firefighters have.

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): Can I just make an administrative point? If you see me mouthing and shouting when I was on mute, it is because my computer is about to turn itself off and go into some sort of refresh. They are just working to set me up in another room. If I come off camera for a moment, it is not because I have given up on the Committee. It means you will not witness me throwing the laptop out of the window. Then I will be in a new room and you can carry on asking me questions. Sorry about that, but perhaps just a bit of an example of how we are all living in this virtual universe.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): OK. Thanks, Andy.

Dr Alison Moore AM: Thank you very much. Thank you, Chair.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): OK. Thank you. Andy, on Monday I did a virtual visit to Ilford ambulance station and spoke to Nicola, a firefighter working on the LAS project, and Charlotte, a LAS paramedic. They are working very well together, and both felt that their skills were enhanced by each other. What is good is that they try to keep the same teams together all the time so that they have a good relationship. The only thing that came out of it was that Charlotte, the paramedic, would quite like to have a go on a fire engine to see the other side of the equation.

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): Do you know what? I am open-minded. This is all there to be discussed and debated in the world we find ourselves in. As long as we do that responsibly with colleagues from the various trade unions, there is opportunity there. We need to look in what will be a challenging environment post-COVID-19, at how we really genuinely drive collaboration because this period of time has shown us what we can do for London and Londoners across the agencies.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): Susan Hall wants to come in.

Susan Hall AM (Deputy Chairman): Thank you. You have answered some of it. I am a massive supporter, as you know, of blue-light collaboration. It has been incredible what has been going on among the blue-light services. Are the unions softening towards the thought of proper blue-light collaboration?

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): I have to recognise that we would not have been able to achieve what we have done in London without their co-operation. That is a good early sign of where these conversations could go. It would not be right to answer on their behalf. They have their own voice in this. However, my sense is that, yes, that conversation is more open than it has ever been, and we will continue to work positively and proactively with them to drive that conversation forward and seize those opportunities.

Susan Hall AM (Deputy Chairman): That is good news. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): We now move on to high-rise firefighting and Léonie Cooper AM.

Léonie Cooper AM: Hopefully, the Commissioner is not going to suddenly vanish then from one room to another while I am asking you some questions, but we will have to see how that goes then if your technical issues continue.

Whenever we have a discussion with the LFB, we always have all our acronyms and codes that we have to wade through. I want to turn to one of them: policy note (PN) 633. When we last spoke to you formally in the Committee, we were looking at having it published by July of this year and so next month. Now there have been one or two things that have been going on since we last had our formal meeting in early March [2020].

Are you still on track to publish it in July [2020]? We would be fairly understanding given what has intervened if it is going to be delayed but it would be good to know when that is going to happen.

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): This speaks to my earlier point around the delay to December [2020] because the training and the policy are interlinked. We cannot responsibly implement that policy and procedure until we have trained people sufficiently to do so with confidence in what is a very difficult operating environment. Whilst we have given them a lot of initial guidance about the sorts of decisions they might face tonight and we are in a much better place than we ever were, to fully implement those procedures we need to bring through the training.

Richard, perhaps you can again give the detail of what that looks like in the timeline across those three policies?

Richard Mills (Deputy Commissioner – Safety and Assurance, London Fire Brigade): Certainly. As I mentioned earlier in regard to the three phases of training, there is the specific question you are asking around PN 633, which is on high rise, and we have fire survival guidance policy and a new evacuation rescue policy. What it will enable us to do is to provide three training packages simultaneously to the workforce to enable them to make the connection between them because they are so interlinked.

Part of that through the CBT is being developed and so it would be between July and December [2020] that we will be rolling out that CBT. Part of that will also be about a guided learning exercise within that package to consolidate the theoretical part of the policy and to be able to demonstrate knowledge and understanding of the workforce and how they apply that in the real environment.

That training is going to be provided to all station-based personnel. It is going to be provided to the middle managers as well as principal officers and so any uniformed officer who will attend a high-rise incident.

When we go through that process, we will make sure that we have no less than 80% of the people trained in that and familiar with it before we are satisfied that that can go live, accepting that in that going live there is now going to be a second phase around the exercising and testing and the practical application in a real environment, as well as the aspiration for the third phase around the practical firefighting and the urban firefighting course that we wish to develop.

We are at the stage that there will be a delay until 31 July, but between 31 July and 31 December [2020] is when we will be rolling out and delivering that training. The aspiration is CBT, which will take us to a position where we have the workforce trained to 80% or more, for 31 July to then publish that document in its entirety.

Léonie Cooper AM: I am asking these questions in the context of the fact that the most recently published figures show that there are still 247 high-rise blocks in London that have aluminium composite material (ACM) on them, which is exactly the material that was on Grenfell Tower, as we know. We have now discovered that high-pressure laminate (HPL) material is also possibly extremely flammable too because there has been the fire of a building with that, the student house. I am asking this in the context of there still being the potential for similar fires to Grenfell, but of course there has been a bit of a delay because of COVID-19.

I really hope that this does not happen, but supposing there is another spike in July or another spike in November, how might that push back your training opportunities, and would that then delay PN 633 and also the associated documents on emergency evacuation and mass rescue?

Richard Mills (Deputy Commissioner - Safety and Assurance, London Fire Brigade): Although we are releasing the policies, we have already provided additional awareness training to the workforce. We have talked about their operational use, which is an internal documentation around firefighting, recognising the signs and symptoms of fire spread and abnormal fire behaviour. We have done something to at least increase the awareness of how that operates. The systems we have in place around the number of fire engines that we have going to these types of buildings remains in place and so the predetermined attendance.

Assembly Member Moore asked a question about some of the work we have done during this period. The high-risk activities, high-rise buildings, we have continued to visit those. We have continued having inspecting officers go there and make sure that we are very cognisant of those areas, as well as having crews making sure that there remains a waking watch. Yes, we remain live enough to the facts there. During the periods of COVID-19, we still need to progress this.

CBT, because it is not reliant on face-to-face activities, we can still continue to roll out. It needs to be recognised in the early stages of COVID-19 they are quite small teams that have been delivering some of the PPE and the ambulance assist driving are the same teams that have been working on these policies in the computer-based training. Now we have done that, they are shifting their gaze to elsewhere. A lot of the hard graft, in my view - and it is thanks to my team and the other directors - about laying out how we are setting COVID-19 up for phase 2, mostly it has been done, so they are creating a bit more capacity now to focus on that. If we go into phase 2 of COVID, I would like to think the issue around testing, the issue around PPE and face masks and supporting the LAS, we have done the hard miles in phase 1. I am confident that we can continue to deliver against those policies should there be a second spike or a third spike of the pandemic.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): Léonie, Fiona Twycross wanted to come in on that.

Dr Fiona Twycross AM (Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience): All I wanted to say was it is an understandable concern that you have raised about further delays. What I can assure you, and through conversations with the Commissioner, with Richard Mills and with others, is that the Brigade is doing absolutely everything it can to make sure that, as far as possible, the pandemic does not put the Brigade’s plans off course. However, we have to recognise that we do have a pandemic. We do not know what is going to happen in the autumn, but what I can assure the Committee is that as soon we have any indication that there might be any further delays in implementation of this or any other of the vitally important pieces of work arising from the Grenfell Tower inquiry and the inspection report last year, we will make sure that we keep the Committee informed, just as I know the Mayor will keep me informed and the Home Office as well, which is understandably concerned to keep up the pace of change.

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): Very briefly, just from my position as Commissioner, what you have in your question articulates two great risks to Londoners. It articulates the risk of a pandemic and it articulates the continuing risk of what is now understood to be a much more dangerous environment for high- rise residents in particular in London. There is a balance between those two risks and our training and our response, both in terms of risk to vulnerable members of our community and our own staff.

What I would say to you is we are doing those hard conversations and a bit like arms and public order policing in the military, there will be a point where even if there is a second spike in COVID, even a serious one, we will just deliver this policy and we will deliver large-scale group training, because in the end you cannot let that risk to London and Londoners by way of the built environment persist, even in the middle of the pandemic. That is complex and it requires careful conversation with all our stakeholders, both in communities and in trade unions and representative bodies, but I can assure you we are doing that now.

Léonie Cooper AM: I am conscious that I am asking you about something that is really difficult. I am saying in the middle of the pandemic what progress are you making on something that was absolutely horrific three years ago, almost precisely to the day, but it is obviously an area that I am very glad to hear that progress is still being made, notwithstanding the very difficult context in which you are operating.

One of the things that Richard mentioned was the section 7(2)d visits with that long list of things that need to be looked at. Have any of those been held back? I presume that we have enough people who are trained in carrying those out now.

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): In respect to 7(2)ds, we never stopped the high-risk 7(2)ds. We never stopped it, because again this is about this balance between the two great risks, is it not? Although there is some challenge in doing that in a COVID-19 environment, our professional judgment was the risk in the built environment outweighed that presented by COVID-19, particularly in respect to the ongoing inspection of high-rise residential buildings, so we just never stopped. Some of those visits, in small numbers, have been compromised by responsible persons’ understandable reluctance to let us into the building to carry it out. We have had to respect that and work with that and find other solutions, but those have been in the minimum. On the whole, our high risks have carried on in the numbers and it is demonstrated by the fact we are confident we will meet those parts of the delivery plan in relation to the recommendations laid down in both the inspection and inquiry reports.

Léonie Cooper AM: Thank you very much for that. I referred earlier on to the fact that the latest figures that came out right at the end of May show that there are still 247 blocks in London that have ACM. Last year the Government pledged that ACM would have been removed by now. The target was this month, three years on from the Grenfell fire.

The other aspect that is really concerning me is that from the time when the Government set that target to remove ACM, there are now more privately-owned buildings in London, not ones owned by councils. What is the point of us setting a target? Do you think we have really properly learned the lessons of Grenfell when there seems to be an increase? I personally cannot understand how that has happened. What more can we do from this Committee, from you as the Brigade, from you as the Deputy Mayor for Fire, to get the message across that ACM should not be going on to the outside of buildings? We need to reduce the number, not have any more.

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): If I may answer, it is in the legislation, actually. To be fair to central Government, this is a wicked problem to solve. Actually, politicians across the spectrum have absolutely heard and understood the nature of this risk. It is just difficult to resolve in the context of who owns the buildings. Has the remediation been quick enough? No. Do I tell central Government that repeatedly? Yes, but the key is to work positively with our stakeholders in the Home Office, who are helping move two very important Bills through Parliament in respect of building safety and fire safety. We are at the Committee stage for one and we will shortly see the parliamentary beginning of the other.

My sense is people are engaged with this, it is just difficult and slow to achieve, but ultimately it will be legislation that drives the greatest change because then developers, local authorities, those with responsibility for inspection and providing competent persons to do inspection, will simply have to fall in line or they will be breaking the law.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): Fiona wanted to come in.

Dr Fiona Twycross AM (Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience): I was just going to highlight that we are aware - and it is one of those dreadful knock-on effects of the pandemic - that the COVID-19 pandemic is having a further impact on remediation progress and timescales. In April [2020], reflecting the point that the Commissioner made about this being something that politicians of all parties are aware of and want to see progress on, the Mayor signed up to a Government pledge, alongside other metro mayors and the National Housing Federation, to highlight the fact that cladding remediation counts as emergency safety work - which there had been some confusion about - and should continue, where possible, during the lockdown. It is something that is very much on the radar at City Hall, but also just to reassure you that across all levels of Government people are aware there is still a problem and that this work cannot be delayed because of the pandemic, where other parts of the construction industry, understandably and rightly, slowed down.

Léonie Cooper AM: We have spoken several times during the course of the pandemic about the fact that construction needs to continue and should not be closed down, this and any area of construction, and it is very welcome to hear that everyone is signing up to say that these emergency works have got to continue on the third anniversary of Grenfell. This Committee, everybody involved in this discussion and beyond, the tribute that the people from Grenfell really want is that there are not still buildings with this cladding on them and that others may face what they had to face on that awful night three years ago. We owe it to them, and we also owe it to the LFB as well because it is not just about the residents of Grenfell; it is also for the LFB as well that we need to be making sure this material is removed as soon as possible. It is something this Committee is going to continue to come back to. Thank you very much. I will leave it there, Chair.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): Thank you. Perhaps I can follow up with a quick snapshot with Andy and/or Richard about the equipment procurement which came out of Grenfell. Where are we with the aerial replacement programme? Do you have any of the 64-metre ones in yet?

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): Richard, I am going to hand over to you in terms of the detail around timescales, but what I would say as a general point is that it is all progressing in terms of the procurement piece.

Richard Mills (Deputy Commissioner - Safety and Assurance, London Fire Brigade): Yes, it is progressing as planned. We recognise that with COVID there might be a slight delay in relation to other dependencies, like our manufacturers. Nonetheless, we have training planned as of July [2020] and so we will have our first one to enable us to carry out the training around high rise and then it will come in, exactly as the Commissioner has said, in line with our scheduled plan of works around our asset refresh generally, so not just aerial.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): When did we take delivery of the first 64-metre ladder?

Richard Mills (Deputy Commissioner - Safety and Assurance, London Fire Brigade): I will confirm that to you. I do not have it directly in my head, but I can definitely confirm that to you afterwards.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): Do we have any of the new 32s in service yet?

Richard Mills (Deputy Commissioner - Safety and Assurance, London Fire Brigade): Not in service, but we are working towards training as of 1 July [2020] around those vehicles.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): That is good to know. I am sure that Members would like to have a look - either virtually or physically - at one of the 64 metres when they come in.

Smoke blockers: there was a problem with supply. Has that been sorted now?

Richard Mills (Deputy Commissioner - Safety and Assurance, London Fire Brigade): Yes. It is on the framework. On the provision of smoke blockers, we are in the process of procuring more, so it is going through the normal tendering process. They are part of the plan for high-rise policy as well as increasing the number of fire escapements as well. It is out to tender. We are going through the procurement process for the whole of the fleet to enable those to be made available.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): When do you expect to get them?

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): Sorry, just to come in on that, I have read a bit of detail that had come in only yesterday. We have already taken delivery of just over 30 to enable training and a subsequent delivery of over 100 - there is only one manufacturer anyway - is on the stocks and procurement are putting pressure on the manufacturer to get that delivered as soon as possible, but the production ceased at one point because of COVID-19. My understanding is they are back in the factory and they are going to be making them. We are putting pressure to bring the timescales forward and so there is enough there to train, but now we need them actually on the trucks. That is my understanding of it.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): OK, thank you. Smoke hoods you mentioned. You were going to buy some more, Richard, and I also understand you have a drone to deliver them.

Richard Mills (Deputy Commissioner - Safety and Assurance, London Fire Brigade): We are looking to procure more fire escape hoods, to have in effect a grab bag available of appliances as part of the high-rise policy, and so the grab bags are being made internally by our protective equipment group to facilitate that. We have carried out a number of trials utilising our drone as a means to deliver various things, for example, fire escape hoods or flotation devices or flood response, those kinds of things, and so it is something that is being trialled at the moment.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): When will the trials be completed?

Richard Mills (Deputy Commissioner - Safety and Assurance, London Fire Brigade): I do not have that information to hand, but I can certainly get that for you.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): The radio replacement programme, the problem of communication we saw at Grenfell, how is that going?

Richard Mills (Deputy Commissioner - Safety and Assurance, London Fire Brigade): The radio replacement programme is about digitising the radios. They will be going out to tender in July with a plan that they would be introduced in the last quarter of the coming year. As it stands at the moment, we have replaced approximately 150 analogue and digital radios on our command units to increase our capability around that. The reason we had a slight delay on that - and I said it at one of the recent Assembly Member meetings - was that what we are trying to do is have a radio that has a stronger frequency wave and that allows us to have a stronger radio that can be used by firefighters. That is progressing as planned as part of the procurement process.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): The breathing apparatus (BA) replacement programme?

Richard Mills (Deputy Commissioner - Safety and Assurance, London Fire Brigade): The BA replacement programme is continuing. The radios are incorporated into that as well as the replacement of cylinders as well. To hand, it is being delivered in a number of phases, radio being the first phase and then that is going to be carried over in the next couple of years as part of the mapping out of the programme. Cylinders are being incorporated into that because we recognise that with a smaller, more effective cylinder we may be able to double up the capability with cylinders. We are also looking at oxygen capability as well.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): Is the extended duration breathing apparatus (EDBA) replacement not now going ahead specifically or is being folded in?

Richard Mills (Deputy Commissioner - Safety and Assurance, London Fire Brigade): It is in the whole replacement project, so we are looking at all elements of respiratory protection.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): OK, thank you. Now we are going to go on to the financial position and Susan.

Susan Hall AM (Deputy Chairman): Hello. I do not know if Sue Budden is going to answer this or the Commissioner. First of all, what impact has COVID-19 had on the LFB’s finances and are you anticipating any losses? If so, how significant do you expect these to be?

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): Perhaps if I just start and set the general picture. Yes, COVID-19 has cost us and, yes, we will expect to see a gap as a result of that.

Sue Budden (Director of Corporate Services, London Fire Brigade): Yes, certainly. The forecast cost of our response to COVID-19 is around £5 million. I have already mentioned the conversations that are going both with City Hall and the Home Office about the potential funding they will contribute towards that and how we might approach working with the LAS in future.

In terms of our ongoing financial position, our money comes via the GLA. We are waiting for the budget guidance and that will give us some idea of the modelling that City Hall is working on. Everyone can expect that business rate holidays, council tax holidays and the sheer cost of the Government’s wider recovery programme would have some impact on funding availability across the public sector. We have not yet seen what City Hall is modelling and how we might respond to that.

Susan Hall AM (Deputy Chairman): No, we are looking forward to that. It has been delayed, which is annoying for all of us.

The GLA was awarded £19 million, which was non-ringfenced, from the Government. How much of that money has been awarded to the LFB?

Sue Budden (Director of Corporate Services, London Fire Brigade): We have not finalised that discussion with them yet. We do a two-weekly forecast of costs which we share through and those conversations are ongoing.

Susan Hall AM (Deputy Chairman): You are having ongoing discussions to try to recoup some of these additional costs?

Sue Budden (Director of Corporate Services, London Fire Brigade): Yes.

Susan Hall AM (Deputy Chairman): Earlier: you said you were not billing the LAS for the work that the firefighters are doing with them. Is that correct?

Sue Budden (Director of Corporate Services, London Fire Brigade): Yes. The work that we have done to date we have not, but as we have said, the conversations we are having about extending this, we are looking to talk to the LAS about the extent to which it would help cover our costs. We mentioned earlier about our ability to do this was because we were not doing other things, but in future we want to bring those things back online, then we will have additional costs and we would look to the LAS to work with us on that.

Susan Hall AM (Deputy Chairman): Given you have an additional cost of £5 million, would it have been sensible to have looked to put costings in for what you have done already?

Sue Budden (Director of Corporate Services, London Fire Brigade): With the LAS?

Susan Hall AM (Deputy Chairman): Yes.

Sue Budden (Director of Corporate Services, London Fire Brigade): It could be that we can continue to have that debate with them as time goes on. I do not feel that we have closed down any option as to how the costs that we have incurred might be funded.

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): Just to be clear, in the conversations I have had with the Chief Executive of the LAS, I have been very clear that for us to continue to provide our statutory provision, as we must, to London and Londoners the cost must transfer to health. While we are having the conversation about when and how and the mechanics around that, I am really clear that in respect to our support into the LAS that health is going to have to pay in the end, because otherwise I cannot afford to provide my statutory service to Londoners. Garrett [Emmerson, Chief Executive Officer, LAS] absolutely understands that.

In terms of whether we should have done it at the start, it is fair to ask that question, but what I would reflect and say is that at that point, because we had stopped the majority of our non-response core activities, we had the capacity in terms of people available. We were at a point where the crisis was acute in London and we just needed to step in and provide that service. Now the conversation is happening about what happens to put that on to a sustainable footing, but absolutely right to ask, Susan.

Dr Fiona Twycross AM (Deputy Mayor for Fire and Resilience): At the point at which the Commissioner had his initial conversation with the LAS, we were at such a stage of the pandemic that we needed people just to get on and sort things out. That is not to say that people should just get on and sort things out and damage their own budget indefinitely, but one of the things that the LFB has been recognised for within the sector - and without wanting to put words in their mouths - by the Home Office, as well as by me and the Mayor, is the incredible way that the LFB said, “We have a problem. We are here to help sort it out. We are not having to do, or we cannot do quite a lot of the other pieces of work, so we are here for London.” There is a discussion to be had about where the money comes from going forward, recouping the costs that have already been incurred and, as Sue Budden said, the conversations are happening, but I have every absolute confidence that the approach that was taken - that the LFB just stepped up and got on with things and delivered what was needed at the time - was absolutely the right approach for the LAS, for the LFB and for London.

Susan Hall AM (Deputy Chairman): Yes, there is no question about that, I completely agree with you, but at the moment, the hat I am wearing is looking at the LFB and how it is managing its resources. While I agree entirely, we are here to scrutinise what you are doing with your resources.

The HMICFRS report stated that it had evidence of the LFB being wasteful with its resources. How are you looking to sort out or address that?

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): We are working in partnership with stakeholders across both City Hall, central Government, our home department, the Home Office and the Inspectorate to really understand what it meant by that. Those conversations are ongoing and that will feed into our use and planned use of resources. My particular focus is on productivity because I know that the environment I am operating in now is very different from what we understood it to be prior to Grenfell, regardless of whether that was right or wrong. Let us be frank: we understand the world we operate in now in a very different way. Now, as we work with a better understanding of COVID-19, I have an even different understanding again of the environment I am operating in and the value that the LFB can provide in serving its community.

My focus is very much on what we do in terms of our resources. What are the services we offer to London and Londoners? How can we ensure that we are being productive and offer as best value we can? The planning for that is ongoing and in conversation in every aspect, from the national role maps, to how we support colleagues in health, how we support the wider pandemic response, to actually how we measure our statutory provision beyond what is currently a very simple measure around attendance times, for example. How do we measure our reach into communities and the value we are really giving them? How do we increase our offer around fire safety into this now invariably more complicated environment? They are the thoughts that are ongoing, and they will be embedded in the transformation plan and will be made clear to you in that context.

Susan Hall AM (Deputy Chairman): Yes, I can see where you are going, but equally we must look after our finances. If we do not, you will not be able to do any of that. That is fundamental. Sue Budden will tell you her job of making sure we spend the money correctly is vital so that you can provide everything else.

On a final note, it has been something that I have been concerned about: can you provide an update on the firefighters’ pension and the implication that may have on the LFB’s finances?

Andy Roe (London Fire Commissioner): Sue, would you mind, please?

Sue Budden (Director of Corporate Services, London Fire Brigade): There are two issues in respect of the firefighters’ pension. One is the cost of the pension scheme for us as a result of the last actuarial valuation. That increased our cost by £25 million. We have had Government funding of £21 million to cover the majority of that, but whether that will be continued remains a big question mark for us. We have been hoping over the last couple of years that it will be sorted through the spending review, but understandably spending reviews have been delayed. At the moment, that remains a question mark.

The other even more uncertain area is around the case about the discriminatory nature of the pension scheme changes. It is called the McCloud judgment. It was decided that there was discrimination on age and the Government was refused permission to appeal and so now it is back to an Employment Tribunal to decide on the remedy for that. We do not know what that looks like, but I would imagine there would be significant costs that would fall back on to the pension scheme both in terms of that remedy and also the cost of calculating and arranging that remedy, because it is going to be very complex, given the amount of time that has passed and the stages of the individuals that have retired or chosen not to retire and then the various options they took. I do not have dates for that, and again we wait to see how that cost is split between the

fire service and the Government, how it is picked up through future valuations, and so the whole area remains very uncertain across those two issues.

Susan Hall AM (Deputy Chairman): They have a massive impact, which is another reason we have to watch the pennies and pounds. OK, I will leave it there. Thank you very much.

Andrew Dismore AM (Chair): OK, thank you, Susan. Can I say to our guests, thank you for all of your contributions.