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Clinton Fernandes Defended PM 4 Fmr intelligence oficer says ASIO raid legitimate national sec ri... http://www.abc.net.a /pm/content/2013/s3A050C8.htm PM with Mark Colvin Monday to Friday from 6:10pm on ABC Local Radio and 5:00pm on Radio National . Fmr intelligence officer says ASIO raid legitimate national security action Mark Colvin reported this story on Wednesday, December 4, 2013 18:22:00 MARK COLVIN: Dr Clinton Fernandes is a former intelligence oficer with the A stralian Army who teaches on intelligence matters at the University of New So th Wales' Canberra fac lty. I as)ed him irst abo t George Brandis' ass rances that material sei,ed in the raids wo ld not be sed against East .imor in the /ag e co rt case. CLIN.ON FERNANDES: ASIO 0A stralian Sec rity Intelligence Organisation1 is very reliable and very believable when they say that they weren't trying to impede the international arbitration between A stralia and East .imor. I believe their motives were solely related to defending A stralia's national sec rity beca se they wanted to ma)e s re that if the afidavits that Mr Collaery was going to be sing contained the name of any A stralian Secret Intelligence Service agent, well, they'd need advance warning so they co ld ta)e co nter4meas res. .here were very legitimate reasons for yesterday's raid. MARK COLVIN: B t what abo t cancelling the former ASIS 0A stralian Secret Intelligence Service1 agent's passport5 Isn't that bo nd to impede East .imor's case if that person was going to give evidence in .he /ag e5 CLIN.ON FERNANDES: I thin) that person wo ld already have made a sworn statement, a formal legal deposition, to ens re that the case co ld go ahead regardless of whether he was in .he /ag e or not. MARK COLVIN: B t s rely the act al appearance of a witness is important in cases, otherwise it'd all be done by sworn legal depositions5 CLIN.ON FERNANDES: Deinitely, deinitely. I thin) that probably wo ld harm Mr Collaery's case, or the .imor Leste government's case, b t that's not the intention of the warrant that ASIO so ght. .hat's simply a by4prod ct of the warrant being so ght. B t sho ldn't we be as)ing 6 estions abo t the timing5 .hey co ld have done this before Mr Collaery left for .he /ag e or they co ld have done it ne7t wee), perhaps5 CLIN.ON FERNANDES: Deinitely. I thin) 6 estions sho ld be as)ed abo t the timing. It may well be that they only very recently got wind of it beca se of the operational secrecy that Mr Collaery and the .imor Leste government had been maintaining. I'm spec lating here. 8es, 6 estions sho ld be as)ed abo t the timing b t there are probably very good reasons for it. MARK COLVIN: Mr Collaery is also tal)ing abo t the fact that he represents lots of other people who probably won't be terribly happy abo t ASIO being able to go thro gh their doc ments. I mean, what )ind of protections do people have in these circ mstances5 CLIN.ON FERNANDES: /ere is a 6 estion that I thin) sho ld really be as)ed of Mr David Irvine, the Director4 General of ASIO, precisely how Mr Collaery's other clients are going to have their privacy protected. MARK COLVIN: B t it's a legitimate 6 estion in yo r view5 CLIN.ON FERNANDES: S re, it's a legitimate 6 estion b t it's a legitimate 6 estion in pretty m ch any secret service or police raid on any law irm, not 9 st this one. MARK COLVIN: .hey're not too fre6 ent, tho gh: it's not a common event for a law irm to be raided by ASIO5 CLIN.ON FERNANDES: It's not a common event, no. B t this )ind of raid on any law irm, regardless of who the client was, wo ld invariably capt re or ris) capt ring doc ments pertaining to other clients of that law irm and so I thin) ASIO is 6 ite normal in this regard. 1 of 3 12/5/2013 8:13 AM PM 4 Fmr intelligence oficer says ASIO raid legitimate national sec ri... http://www.abc.net.a /pm/content/2013/s3A050C8.htm MARK COLVIN: Do yo thin) that this e74ASIS agent is what one might call a legitimate whistleblower5 I )now that the Oficial Secret Act is all4encompassing: yo 're not s pposed to say anything. B t is this a case where there was a gen ine p blic interest served5 CLIN.ON FERNANDES: Well, we have the Intelligence Services Act and if a person were to ind o t this sort of information as a res lt of being an ASIS agent, there are speciic prohibitions abo t it. B t, to my mind, yes: it's a legitimate whistleblowing action, altho gh I of co rse want more information. B t at this stage, yes, it loo)s li)e a legitimate whistleblowing disclos re beca seE MARK COLVIN: What partic larly abo t it ma)es it that5 CLIN.ON FERNANDES: .he fact that the agent apparently believes that the operation was done, not in order to advance A stralia's national sec rity, b t for the sectional interests of an oil company. .hat, at least, is what I'm reading, b t only from the open so rces. MARK COLVIN: So he is saying that ASIS was act ally operating on behalf of Woodside, not on behalf of the A stralian Government5 CLIN.ON FERNANDES: I'm not s re what, if that is what he is saying, b t if that is what he's saying then deinitely it's a legitimate whistleblowing disclos re, yes. MARK COLVIN: Is it also legitimate to disclose the means by which they got in if they were posing as aid agents5 CLIN.ON FERNANDES: Deinitely. .hat is very m ch in the p blic interest beca se every A stralian wants to )now or o ght to )now if their ordinarily innoc o s activities overseas as h man rights wor)ers, as doctors, as b ilders, pl mbers and so on, p ts them in danger of being s spected as spies. .hat is very, very legitimate and I'm personally gratef l that this whistleblower has come o t with that speciic disclos re. MARK COLVIN: So do yo believe that that's what happened: that ASIS acted, pretended to be A sAID wor)ers5 CLIN.ON FERNANDES: 8es. .hat's what I thin) happened based on the disclos res that I've seen in the press. And if that's tr e, that is very cynical. MARK COLVIN: B t isn't it the case that foreign intelligence agencies generally s spect 9 st abo t everything of being a cover for foreign spying5 CLIN.ON FERNANDES: Deinitely not. I thin) that certain categories of occ pations sho ld never be sed for espionage. For e7ample, members of the International Committee of the Red Cross sho ld never be impersonated. Similarly, medical personnel, religio s personnel sho ld never be impersonated in a foreign intelligence operation and I thin) the mis se or the alleged mis se of the A stralian aid program is really disgracef l. MARK COLVIN: And yet the US only got Osama bin Laden by nder cover of a vaccination operation: again, this )ind of pretence5 CLIN.ON FERNANDES: 8eah, that is similarly contempt o s. 8es. And in fact, that has p t in 9eopardy the vaccination program of poor people in Pa)istan and elsewhere in the .hird World. 8es. MARK COLVIN: And yo 're saying that the conse6 ences in this case have the potential to be as bad as that5 CLIN.ON FERNANDES: It p ts in do bt the ne trality of every A stralian who goes overseas: yo ng )ids who go overseas on a gap year: middle4aged people who go and try and do agric lt ral programs: people who do medical assistance, yo )now, in the global so th. All of those people can have their motives imp gned beca se of actions li)e that, yeah. MARK COLVIN: Dr Clinton Fernandes, a former intelligence oficer who teaches on intelligence matters at the University of New So th Wales' Canberra camp s. ©2010 ABC 2 of 3 12/5/2013 8:13 AM.
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