SOUTHEASTERN INDIAN ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

UNIVERSITY OF

In cooperation with The Tribe of Florida

INTERVIEWEE: D.T., A Housewife INTERVIEWER: JEAN CHAUDHURI

DATE: MAY, 1971 INDEX

Alcoholism, 11

Alligator wrestling, 8

Brighton Reservation, 1, 5

Clans, 1

Communication, 5-6

Dances, 13

Dress, 13

Education and drop-out rate, 11-12

Everglades, 7

Food, 7-8

Green Corn Dance, 5

Hollywood Reservation, 1

Honesty, 9-10

Hospitality, 7, 10

Housing, 12-13

Hunting and fishing, 4-5

Indian stickball game, 6-7

Jackson, Andrew, 2-3

Land ownership, 3-5 Language Creek [Muskogee], 1 Miccosukee, 12 Seminole, 1 teaching of, 12

Medicine men, 10

Osceola, 4, 7, 9

Punishment, 9

Religion, 10-11

Seminole meaning, 2

Seminole War, 3

Tamiami Trail, 1, 13 I: Are there a lot of Otters [Otter Clan] living here?

S: No.

I: Have you always lived here at Hollywood ·reserve?

S: No, I come from the Tamiami Trail.

I: Can you marry into your own clan?

S: No.

I: Why?

S: Because we're brothers and sisters, all of the people that belong to that clan. They can marry outside the clan.

I: You're a Miccosukee yourself?

S: Uh huh.

I: All right, let's say you belong to the Otter Clan with the Miccosukee tribe--could you marry an Otter tribe of the Seminole tribe?

S: I don't know what the difference is between Seminole and Miccosukee. To me they're all the same.

I: How about the languages? Is it a little bit different?

S: No, the same.

I: The same, the languages? Miccosukee and Seminole language, or Creek--how do you distinguish?

S: Well, Seminole, Miccosukee, and Creek is different.

I: Uh huh. So, Seminole and Miccosukee are the same, but the Creek is different?

S: Yes.

I: Like Brighton Creeks are different from the Seminole-Miccosukee? 2

S: Yes.

I: Most history books tells us that Seminole means "runaway or untamed people." Is this what you hear among your people?

S: Well, the word means "wild".

I: Wild?

S: Uh huh, "something wild."

I: Is it a Miccosukee word or a Creek word? I S: Miccosukee. It's really pronounced seminoli.

I: Have you ever heard any stories where the Seminole came from?

S: No, I never heard, but in school they tell us that they were around Georgia, Alabama, and Florida.

I: Have you ever heard of the character_of Andrew Jackson?

S: Uh huh.

I: What sort of person was he?

S: Well, he was an enemy.

I: An enemy of the Creek?

S: Seminole.

I: To the , uh huh. You said he was an enemy. Was he a good enemy or a bad enemy?

S: An enemy.

I: An enemy.

S: A real bad ••.•

I: O.K. What sort of tactics did he use in order to move the Indians from.out of this area?

S: Well, I think he tricked them, from what I've heard, and lied to them, and stuff like that. 3

I: They also tell me around 1818 and '19, Andrew Jackson was trying to get more land for the United States, and the only way he could get this land was from Spain. Spain in 1819 owned Florida, they tell me, and this is the way the United States got Florida .•. because Spain gave it to them. Do you believe that the land belonged to Spain--this land, Florida?

S: Well, I believe that the Indians were here ·first.

I: You said a phrase a while ago. What did you mean by that?

S: First come, first serve, and the land belongs to the Seminoles.

I: At one time the government, whenever they wanted to force the Seminoles to make them move to Oklahoma they had promised them that they would get good farm.land, they would get good education, they would get some money to get started in business, and then the white man will never bother them again. How come the Seminoles didn't take this opportunity to go to Oklahoma?

S: They lied to them before, so must be they thought they were lying to them again. That's why they fought back so much to stay here.

I: Do you think Osceola was a great war hero?.

S: Yes, I think that he was.

I: Can you tell me a little bit about him?

S: Well, I've heard that he was so ... like, he wasn't afraid. He was so brave, he outsmarted the white man all the time, and finally they captured him.

I: How was he captured?

S: Well, I think they lied to him, and the way that our grandmothers tell it is that they lied to him, and that's the only way they could get him.

I: Over a seven year period, do you know how much the United States pa~d for the Seminole War?

S: Well, in history they tell us 20 million dollars and 15,000 men.

I: And that's a lot of lives and a lot of money. Do you think if 4

Osceola was alive today, he would be happy that he made the U.S. government pay that much money and to loose that many men?

S: I think so.

I: Osceola was a young man, probably-in his twenties or so, and he was not a chief, either by election or by inheritance. Why? Why did they choose him as a leader, since he wasn't elected or he wasn't a chief by inheritance? What was so unique about him that they wanted him as a chief?

S: Well, they didn't elect him as a chief, as you say, but I think he loved his people, and that showed. They could tell, and he loved his people that much to go that far.

I: And so you think he was sort of a protector for his people? Do you think he protected them pretty well?

S: Uh huh. I think so.

I: In what ways?

S: Well, he wanted to keep this land, not for himself, but for the whole tribe.

I: And a long time ago, do you think most Indians saw the land as private property, or did it belong to the tribe?

S: I think to the tribe. Nobody ever wanted this and that for themselves. I think they ____ for the whole tribe. They stuck together, and what belonged to one person belonged to the whole tribe. I think that's the way they were.

I: Now, for the Indian to go fishing in those days, before the white man, have you heard stories that they have to have fishing license or hunting license?

S: I don't think so.

I: How about today?

S: Today they still don't.

I: They still don't? 5

S: On the government land reserve, they don't need license.

I: On all government lands, or just the reservation?

S: On all of the government property, because I know wherever you go you don't need a license if you're on Indian land.

I: Oh, just on Indian land?

S: On Indian land.

I: I started to say, what if you go to state property?

S: I don't know, really.

I: But just Indian land, you know that?

S: I know for sure that they don't need a license.

I: A long time ago if they were going to have a Green Corn Dance or maybe a big ceremony of some sort, how did they make communication work? How did they, for example, if you lived here in Hollywood, how would you get over to Brighton, your message? You all didn't have any phones or telegraphs or anything. How would a person get a message over?

S: You mean when we still lived in the swamp?

I: Uh huh.

S: Well, they would send ... there was somebody on foot, send somebody.

I:

S: Oh, I don't know if they went that far, but I know they used a lot of canoes for transportation.

I: So today I understand that you all use radio?

S: Yes.

I: This is •.•.

S: Telephone. 6

I: Right. But some of the reservations don't have that many phones, so radio is just as good.

S: Uh huh.

I: Can you tell me a little bit of the Indian stickball game? Have you ever attended any of the Indian stickball games?

S: Yes, I've participated in a few, and I know it's rough.

I: How long does it last?

S: I'm not sure, but I think they ... the first team they gets so many points, I think wins.

I: Oh, so it doesn't make any difference if you play a half an hour or an hour?

S: I don't think so, because when we played,' I don't know if.it's like the olden games, but they put a notch on the tree every time you score, and then you get maybe say like ten notches on your side and then you've won.

I: Is that what they usually start out with--ten notches?

S: I think so.

I: What sort of tribal dresses do you wear when you're playing?

S: Long skirts.

I: Are there any markings that you put on your costume to show that you're a different team?

S: No.

I: How do you know who's on your team?

S: Well, usually the men play the women.

I: Oh, so you can really tell who's who. Who usually wins?

S: Oh, the men probably, because it's pretty rough.

I: Also, during the Indian stickball game, when do you all play it? 7

Do you play it like basketball or baseball, or do you do it during a ceremony, or •.. ?

S: We play it for fun.

I: Do they play Indian stickball game around here?

S: Sometimes at the powwows they do.

I: You just said powwow. I understand you all have a skit on Osceola every year. Can you tell me about the skit?

S: Well, it's like people acting out what happened, kind of.

I: What does Osceola do in this skit?

S: Well, he was captured under the flag of truce. It shows how he rejected signing the peace treaty, and then how he was cap­ tured, and how the soldiers ... how they hit him.

I: I'm just curious. The name here is Osceola. Are you descendants of Osceola, or do you know?

S: Well, my husband might be somewhere along the line.

I: But you don't know for sure?

S: No.

I: Hospitality. I know talking to different ones this seems to be a thing that the Seminoles liked to show, was hospitality. Can you tell me what.they did in the olden days? ·Have you heard stories about it?

S: Well, when I lived out in the , I know if they had visitors ••. like out in the Everglades, they used to live far­ apart from each other, and.they would travel maybe days to get there, and so they would really treat them good and cook for them and prepare a place for them to sleep, and really make them feel welcome.

I: Do you cook your own traditional Indian food? Do you cook pumpkin bread and sofkee and things of this sort?

S: Uh huh.

I: How would you prepare swamp cabbage? 8

S: Well, usually fry it, because any Indians, I think, they like fried foods.

I: Could you tell me how you first start preparing the swamp cabbage, from the time you pick it off from the tree until the time you eat it?

S: Well, you just chop it up. You can either eat it like that, or some people boil it. I don't rea1ly care for swamp cabbage much.

I: So you probably don't cook it?

S: No, not too much.

I: How about your meat? What is your favorite dish?

S: How do I cook meat?

I: Uh huh.

S: Well, mostly beef.

I: How about turtle--have you ever tried turtle?

S: Uh huh.

I: I really like it. How do you prepare your turtle?

S: I like it baked, you know, real well done.

I: How about alligator tail?

S: No, I've never had that. I don't think I could eat that.

I: Many of these are traditional dishes, you know, the way they used to eat.

S: That's what I heard, but looking at the alligator, I don't decide to eat it.

I: Talking about alligator, have you ever known anyone in your family who might have wrestled with alligators?

S: Yes, my father is a professional alligator wrestler.

I: I imagine it took a lot of patience and practice, didn't it? Can you tell a little of how your father wrestles alligators? 9

S: Yeah. I know it takes a lot of courage.

I: Did he just learn this on his own, or did he learn it from his father or somebody?

S: I think somebody in the family showed him.

I: Alligator wrestling--is it sort of a traditional wrestling thing that they did? Has it been handed down for many years? Did the Seminoles always wrestle alligators?

S: Well, not to the public. They did it mainly as a sport, I think, rather than .for a living,livelihood.

I: For punishment--have you ever heard anyone say how people were punished if they lied?

S: Uh huh.

I: Can you tell me?

S: My grandmother said that they used to, you know, they had different punishments for different reasons, but most of the time they used the safety pin or the needle to scratch the arms and legs for punishment. And then, for going back, this is going back a long, long time ago, they used to cut maybe part of the ear off, or, I think, sometimes.they say that they'd thrown the person out of the tribe. They would send him ..••

I: He would be an outcast. They'd probably just send-him out in the wilderness.

S: Yeah, something like that.

I: How about if a person stole something?

S: I don't really know which punishment goes with what, but I know they were punished real severely.

I: A lot of people are saying Osceola was part· white. Do you believe this?

S: I don't really know. I've heard a lot of things about saying he was half white, but from Indians I've never heard that it wasn't true or it was true.

I: Among many Indians, honor and honesty was one of the things they 10

they always honored. Do you ever remember old people talking about how honest you have to be, and truthful?

S: Uh huh. In order to go, you know, when you die, in order to get to the happy hunting ground, say, .you have to live a life telling truth and not lying to anybody or steal or cheat.

I: You know, we're saying one of the virtues of the Indians was hospitality and another virtue which we didn't touch on was to sort of have your religious prayers. Have you ever heard medicine men talk about when to meditate and when not to meditate?

S: Well, I've never heard that the Seminoles meditating or praying like you say, but I know that the medicine man--my grandfather's one of the medicine men, and he sang songs only when he's making the medicine.

I: Your grandfather was a medicine man, did you say?

S: He is a medicine man.

I: Oh, he is! He's still here? One of the things they said a good Seminole shou]d be was to be a good relative. Is this true?

S: I think it is.

I: Can you tell me, in what way does one become a good relative?

S: Well, by treating your in-laws real good--like, he's given food to them, or whatever he has he shares with his in-laws~

I: A long time ago, did the son-in-law talk to his mother-in-·law?

S: I don't know.

I: The Seminole, did he have an idea what God was like a long time ago, or did he talk about God, or didn't he, or did he ever think of God?

S: Well, to the Seminole there was a supreme being. They didn't know him as God, but they knew that there.was a spirit some­ where.

I: Did they give him a name? Did he have a name? 11

S: Must be. I think they kind of called it "Breathmaker", like.

I: Also, we're told that the Seminole saw God in everything, like in the trees, in the rivers, in the water, in the fire--that he even had the sacred fire. Do you know anything about this? Did they see God in everything, or is this just a saying that someone made up?

S: I don't know about them actually seeing God in everything, but they knew that somebody had made these things, if that's what you mean.

I: Yeah, I think this would be the same thing. You know, movies and televisions and novels are always talking about how bad off the Indian is, and then they use statistics to show the average badness of the Indian, and so I'm wondering •.•. This is sort of something general. They said nationally Indians have the highest alcoholism. Do you think this is true among the Seminoles?

S: Well, I think so. There's more drinking than aren't.

I: Do you know any reason why they would be drinking? Are.they just drinking to make themselves happy, or are they drinking because they're sad, or what? Do you have any reasons you might think why they would be drinking so much?

S: I don't really know the real reason, but I think they're just doing it to go along with the crowd, like sex.

I: Also, we have high dropouts of high school students. Could this be true with the Seminoles, too?

S: I think so.

I: Why would they be dropping out?

S: Well, I know a lot of them, their parents who are against white man's way, and so I think it's brought out in the children.

I: Do you think it's important that our children have education, though?

S: I think it's important. I don't think it's the most important. 12

I: Do you think once they get educated that this gives them the right to forget their languages and forget their "Indian-ness"?

S: No, I don't think so.

I: Do you think that even if they are educated, they can still yet know about their Indian ways?

S: I think they should.

I: I think so too. You're probably too young to remember the first tribal election, which was in 1957, and I was just wondering over the years of free elections, have you had good tribal leaders?

S: I would say so.

[The taped portion of the interview ends here. Ms. Chaudhuri appended the written transcript which follows:]

I: Before 1957, I imagine all the reservations were filled with ?

S: I think so.

I: Did some of the Seminoles resist going into these modern homes-­ especially the older people?

S: I think so. I think they kind of didn't want to, but they did.

I: I see that you are in one of the most modern homes. You have a very beautiful home here. Are you teaching your children your language?

S: I am not teaching them as much as I should. I talk to them everytime I remember to.

I: Do you ever tell them old Indian stories or about the Indian Wars?

S: Not the wars. I tell them how it used to be to live out in the open.

I: I have no idea either. Can you tell me a little something about that?

S: It's just that the things you have in the home, you don't have 13

outside. You feel free when you are living out. You don't have bathrooms, cleaning ..• I'm not against it.

I: I'm asking some of the others what they didn't have, and they said they didn't have any taxes. There are lots of things you have said you have done, and it sounds like great fun. How about telling me about one of the dances you have done.

S: I have never really actually danced, myself, but I have watched others on the Trail do the ceremonial dance.

I: Could you tell us about one of them?

S: Well, the shrimp dance in our language is shateegaleecheee, and they do their hands like the shrimp moves. It looks like fun. They go around the fire.

I: Would this be just women?

S : Men and women.

I: As couples?

S: Yes. They wear their best clothes. Each year they make their clothes for this occasion. They wear a cape and the whole costume. It is not a costume, but dress. When they dance around the fire it is really pretty, with the women shaking their shakers.

I: Do the dances take place in the daytime or the nighttime?

S: Most of them take place at night.

I: Why at night?

S: The corn dance they do at night. I don't know why. The snake dance they do in the daytime, as far as I can remember.