Edited Interview with Colin O'Daly at his home (24/112008)
Mairtin Mac Con Iomaire (MM) Colin O'Daly (CD)
1. MM: So I suppose when and where you born?
2. CD: Born here in Dublin in 23'd September, 1952.
3. MM: 1952 right. That makes you now, you're fifty-six this year, fifty-five now, and you'll be fifty-six next September, so yes you're just fifty-five.
4. CD: I grew up in the north side of Dublin and my father was in aviation so we lived at the airport.
5. MM: You lived actually at the airport?
6. CD: In the airport on the background, it was Colinstown in those days.
7. MM: Named after yourself, it's as if you owned the place (laugh).
8. CD: I remember my father going out the winter in the snow to pull the aircraft out of the snow; he was in the crash team. He was one of the fust people, his father didn't speak to him, you know, when he said he was going into aviation, to an airfield out in Dublin airport and he had a good job in the civil service at the time, his father thought he was mad you know. If planes were meant to fly, you know.
9. MM: Yeah a different time wasn't it. So your father had been in the civil service first and then took an idea for aviation in exciting times when it was only starting off?
10. CD: He was doing architecture and engineering and craftsmanship, all that kind of stuff, you know, so that's when he went to work in the airport. And at one stage he was responsible for the cities of Dublin and Cork and Shannon airports, you know.
11. MM: Wow, and was there many in the family Colin?
12. CD: There was four of us in the family.
13. MM: Where did you come?
14. CD: Well I was the second eldest. I had an older sister who was killed in a car accident when I was very small.
15. MM: So that made you the eldest living as such?
16. CD: Yeah the oldest one living, and I'm the only one who actually went into, I suppose I ended up in the catering industry I suppose, after a long term of ill health and loss of education. That wasn't a time where the choices were fairly dark, if you didn't have education where did you go to?
17. MM: Tell me about your ill health?
18. CD: Well I got cortisone poisoning as a child and just in general was very, very ill and small for my age. I'll always remember later on when I went to work in the terminal kitchen in Dublin airport, it transpired I supposed, the family orientated back to the airport but I was so small I used
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PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www.pdf4free.com to stand on an orange box to see onto the top of the range. Willie Ryan would say 'where's your orange box, you know' because I was only a little lad, you know.
I Figure CD.l: Photo of Colin O'Daly and two female chefs in The Park
19. MM: Escoffier was like that too so I wouldn't worry about it, you're in good company (laugh). Escoffier used to wear platforms I think, as far as I know. He was quite short in stature.
20. CD: Yeah so through my ill health and loss of education, schooling and all that.
21. MM: Sorry how far did you go in school as such? Did you just finish your primary cert or did you ...
22. CD: Pretty much self educated, all the way. I think I went two or three years in my entire life into school. But I educated myself in hospital. I was in hospital in London for a long time and I had private teaching and all that sort of stuff you know. I was also very ambitious. I worked very hard and I was very ambitious and I was always out to prove that I could do it as well as anybody else, you know, and I did, you know.
23 . MM: When you did go to school which school did you go to? Was it a local school out near Swords?
24. CD: I went to the CUS (Catholic University School) in Leeson Street.
25 . MM: Oh Leeson Street, okay yeah.
26. CD: I went to the CUS in Leeson Street but at the time we were living in the... My very junior education was in Griffith Avenue, junior infants type of thing in Corpus Christi.
27. MM: Oh yeah that's across the road from where I live; I live on Home Farm Road.
28. CD: But we lived on the Rise in Glasnevin, I was raised up on the Rise.
29. MM: Andersons is up there now, where the butcher shop used to be.
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PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www.pdf4free.com 30. CD: But we moved once the airport started to expand, we had to move, we moved nearer into town and then at that time the airport was out in the country and when our parents were thinking about education later on and where we were going to go to school and you know, and the airport was miles away you know.
31. MM: So what age, the airport was your first catering job was it?
32. CD: Yeah I went, Johnny Opperman was there at the time.
33. MM: He was yeah.
34. CD: ChefDoyle, Jimmy Doyle had just taken over.
35 . MM: Right, okay. So he'd tak~n over from, had Jimmy Flahive been.
36. CD: Jimmy Flahive was the flight chef wasn't he.
37. MM: Well I think what happened I think Jimmy was originally the Collar of Gold or the Dublin airport restaurant. He became sort of executive chef or something like that so they would have brought in a head chef.
38. CD: He was there for the first weeks that I was there in the Collar of Gold and then moved over, he went to the flight kitchen or. ..
39. MM: Jimmy Doyle you said, is it?
40. CD: Jimmy Doyle became head chef.
41 . MM: What age were you? What year would this be?
42. CD: About sixteen I think.
43. MM: So this would be around 1968.
44. CD: 1968/1969 yeah. Wait until I show you this, this will spark the memory (showing a scrapbook of photos and newspaper clippings). I won my first gold medal in a Catering Exhibition. And that's later on the Park in Kenmare.
45 . MM: It's fabulous.
46. CD: My mum keeps all these, you know.
47. MM: Yeah, she's proud of you, and rightly so. So tell us, you're sixteen years old as you said yourself, you were short, you'd be sickly for quite a while and you move in then to working in a professional kitchen, how was it?
48. CD: Well it was funny because at the end of day, as I said, I was quite ambitious and what would I do? What could I do? So I'd heard about a job in the airport, in the kitchen in the airport for a commis chef. I didn't tell my parents, or my family, or my father and mother and my brother but I went to the interview and got the job and I always remember later, into a few weeks there Jimmy Doyle asked me to work overtime or OT as they called it, and because I didn't know what OT was, he said 'tell your father I want to see him in the morning', you know So the morning came, well I went home that night to the dad, my father didn't know I'd taken the job in the airport, anyway I told him the head chef wanted to see him in the morning tomorrow. So my father arrived in and I always remember being in the kitchen in my whites and everybody around, There
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PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www.pdf4free.com is my father standing with his roll of plans, big cigar, brief case. Jimmy Doyle is there thinking what does he want? 'You want to see me?' asked my father. 'I want to see you' asked Jimmy Doyle, 'yes, you know, about my son' said my father. 'Is that your son?' (laugh)
49. MM: Ah, they hadn't figured it out?
50. CD: No (laugh).
51. MM: (Laugh).
52. CD: And I remember my father saying 'look whatever happens between the two of you is between the two of you. Colin has come here on his own'. I remember at one stage in the terminal kitchen in Dublin airport there was a spiral staircase and I fell down the spiral staircase and I was lying flat on my back and the lads said 'compensation, stay down we'll get an ambulance' and I remembered it was my father wh~ put the stairs there, I was up like a shot (laugh).
53. MM: (Laugh). So who do you remember there, you went in '68, Jimmy Doyle you said was head chef, who else was there now?
54. CD: It was still an old style kitchen. My first impression going through the steel door, you know, all the women from the Coombe area, all the hard women, tough women but with hearts of gold. I remember the frrst girl I ever kissed they all held me down so one of the girls could actually kiss me.
55. MM: (Laugh).
56. CD: That was a laugh as well. But I'll always remember the long lines of silvers, the coppers, the burnishing machine, you know, the dish washer and it was a live performance, it was a live show every day of people within behind the scenes and in front, you know. I did a year in the vegetable house with a guy called Mick Mooney and so it was very much the old school where you went through, you went through your paces. You served your time for six years, you know. So you did a year in the vegetable house, did the potatoes, chopping the parsley, all that, then you were allowed onto the veg section with Frank Reilly and then you had to clean out the fridge in the morning. But also in the vegetable house having Jimmy Doyle's breakfast on a tray with a paper at 10 am and you dare not go into his office without being in a clean uniform. He said like 'did you sleep in your uniform last night?' so you knew you had to bring his breakfast and his paper in the morning so you had to be clean and that started off with the 'morning chef and then you had to clean out the vegetable section then, clean out the fridges so you through and then you were allowed to do various jobs and then after a while you were chef de partie on the vegetable and then you were moved to the larder or the starters. So you went through the different sections, you know.
57. MM: Who was in the larder do you remember?
58. CD: Bill Ryan and Willie Ryan, yeah. And Willie was young then, obviously younger then, but Willie was tough enough but you know they were like father figures to me because I was only the kid. You know they were tough. The lads, they played cards down stairs and you know spent their money on the horses, you know, you had split shifts when you didn't go home in the afternoon and they played cards.
59. MM: Now Jimmy Kilbride had left by this stage. He wasn't there was he?
60. CD: He'd left. Paddy Keys was still there. Noel Vauls was still there. Charlie Pepper was in the Shamrock lounge. What do you call the other mad fella that was in the Shelbourne lounge, Paddy Whacker they used to call him, a real character! Davy Lord was the head waiter, and he used to wear the blue sash and the white gloves so he used to go to the hunt balls. Willie wanted to
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PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www.pdf4free.com the (inaudible) the buffet work. We used to do all the buffets, all the ice carvings and the mirrors and there was a hunt ball. Charlie Haughey used to come to them all the time. That was on Saturday night. On Saturday nights they'd all come in their splendour and ... But then again I think that's when Friday and Saturday nights were the dining out nights. They were, whereas every night is a Saturday night now.
61. MM: When you talk about the hunt balls were the hunt balls held in the airport in the Collar of Gold?
62. CD: In the Collar yeah.
63. MM: And the flight kitchen was totally separate from the Collar of Gold?
64. CD: It was.
65. MM: And you worked just in the Collar of Gold in the Dublin, was it called the Collar of Gold at that stage or was it called the Dublin Airport restaurant?
66. CD: It changed to the Collar of Gold restaurant while I was there. It wasn't just the Dublin airport restaurant. Then all the parents used to come out for Sunday lunch, Friday night, Saturday night and Saturday, Sunday lunch so that people could watch the airplanes coming and going. Well the first escalator came in at that stage. People used to leave their kids to play on the escalator.
67. MM: That's right. I remember being brought out myself and what I remember at one stage that there was this, there was a real life cock pit, a real life half part of a plane and you used to be able to go in and see it, you know what I mean.
68. CD: That's right. Magic yeah. So that was ...
69. MM: Was Eddie Kavanagh there as a waiter or had he finished?
70. CD: Eddie Kavanagh. I remember the name alright. There was a guy called Paddy there, an old kind of guy. He was a bit of a dipso. But in those days there used to be a lot of casual waiters in. This guy Paddy, he was a real old timers, I'll always remember when he was there he was, we were always short of tea spoons, you know, and he'd had a few drinks at this stage of the night but I remember he had a tea spoon on a chain in his top pocket. He went to a customers table and he went (stirring the coffee with the spoon on a chain) (laugh). It was mad you know. I suppose in those days there were characters, and I think Ireland had diverse people from diverse backgrounds and diverse sort of cultural differences you know. But now cultural differences are inter European cultural difference. Now those differences were within the family almost, because there were only Irish people in Ireland, you know.
71. MM: But it had a very good reputation, hadn 't it? It was considered one of the best restaurants in Ireland at the time and it was actually one of the best, it was voted one of the best airport restaurants in the world I think. It got awards like that?
72. CD: And you know they had the carving trolley. I later on did the carving in the room. Yeah it was a big deal to go to the restaurant. Yeah it was huge you know.
73 . MM: And Charlie Haughey, he was a regular?
74. CD: And Eamon Casey used to come out. One of my first experiences of Eamon Casey was he wasn't long Bishop and I was carving and of course I was still a little lad, and I had this big rib of beef and he wanted the centre cut.(laugh) He wanted it rare and Jesus how am I going to manage this, you know. He said being gracious, take it off the end. And of course my father used
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PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www.pdf4free.com to come in to have lunch and business meetings and I'd be standing at my father's table and carving for my father (laugh). So that was always interesting.
75. MM: And was there a hors d'oeuvres trolley at the time?
76. CD: There was a hors d'oeuvres trolley at the time and that was as you came in your different positions coming up, you know, that was I suppose that's when you artistic flare came from. You got a knife or arranged the hors d'oeuvres, the trolleys and I always very precise and pemickety about doing it right and it looked good and put it on the plate and that, you know. Arrange it nicely so. So that sort of...
77. MM: Yeah, so you had contrasting colours and stuff like that as part of the plate.
78. CD: Willie Ryan and Willie Johnson later on, Willie Johnson was on the sauces. Willie was sort of second chef really but Wi\lie should have always been the head chef I suppose but he just didn't, but both Willie Johnson and Willie Ryan should have been head and second chef. They were very good chefs and they travelled. Jimmy Doyle hadn't travelled; he'd grown up in the airport.
79. MM: I think with Willie Ryan, I don't think he ever had the ambition to be a head chef as such.
80. CD: Neither of them had ambition.
81. MM: They'd great experience and they were fabulous at what they did but I don't think they ever had that drive to want to be a head chef sort of thing.
82. CD: And I always felt that was a pity because they had the capability. It wouldn't have been a problem for them, you know. And I'll always remember a little woman called Lilly Keogh. She used to call in and out the orders. They controlled.
83. MM: Sort of a barker?
84. CD: Yeah she used to call in and out the orders and when it was very busy Jimmy Doyle would call in the orders, you know, and then you'd have the waiters come in and coppers and shouting and there would be tension between the restaurant and the kitchen. Then when it was over, it was over.
85. MM: But it was all silver service at that stage was it?
86. CD: All silver service, yeah, yeah. They used to put on the egg mayonnaise, the prawn cocktails and do wonders to the steak Diane, do the cordon blue out in the room and all that sort of stuff you know.
87. MM: How long did you stay out there?
88. CD: I was there for six years.
89. MM: So you did your full time out there and you got to work through all the different sections, so it was a great grounding really?
90. CD: And you did your day release to Catha! Brugha Street.
91. MM: Okay, tell us about that.
92. CD: You got one or two days a week really, and you did what was then 141, 157 or something.
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PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www.pdf4free.com 93. MM: Do you remember who your teacher was in Catha! Brugha Street.
94. CD: Michael Ganly, and who was the man that came from the Intercontinental with glasses.
95. MM: Let me see now, Joe Erraught no.
96. CD: Michael Marley.
97. MM: Was Michael Marley teaching there, was he?
98. CD: No.
99. MM: Michael had been in the Metropole.
I OO.CD: Yeah Michael Marley is the man I'm thinking about now.l remember Michael well.
I Ol.MM: I'll tell you who was there now. PJ Dunne would have been there. You probably would havehadPJ?
102.CD: Yeah PJDunne, Michael Ganly.
103 .CD: And who became the boss of the college?
104.MM: OhJoeHegarty.
105 .CD: Joe Hegarty was there. Has Joe retired?
106.MM: Joe's retired now yeah
107 .CD: Because he did his PhD two or three years ago.
108 .MM: Yeah he did it in education, yeah, around three years ago.
109 .CD: He was certainly there. There was Joe Erraught.
110.MM: I'll tell you who was there now, Kilbride would have been there.
111 .CD: That's the very man.
112.MM: Yeah Jimmy Kilbride.
113.CD: Jimmy Kilbride, Joe Erraught. Joe Erraught was more my generation, in a way was a little bit ahead of me I suppose. And he's still there. He's the head man there.
114.MM: He's head of department yeah whereas Joe Hegarty was head of school.
115. CD: They were all nice lads.
116.MM: And how did you find the classes when you went college.
117. CD: A love! y man who went to work in America.
118.MM: Noel Cullen.
119.CD: He'sdeadtoo.
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PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www.pdf4free.com 120.MM: He died yeah, he is yeah. He died he was only fifty-four when he died, fifty-two or fifty four or something like that.
121 .CD: And he only died in the last two or three years.
122.MM: Yeah it was fairly recently yeah. Yeah it was the last few years it was.
123 .CD: Because he married a second time to one of his students when his wife died. I knew a Jot of those lads from the exhibitions I suppose. I did Olympia and Torquay and all that sort of stuff.
124.MM: Tell us about that. Were you a member of the Panel of Chefs or did you just do those competitions through the airport?
125.CD: Well in those days you jqined the union, Branch Four, and you joined it because you had to. I think people like Willie Ryan, Frank Ryan and Joe Robinson, they got on really well and they encouraged and I think they saw that I had the potential so they were encouraging. You were working with people of your father's era and they were tough enough but they saw that I had had ill health and got off to a bad start so I think they were encouraging to me to go forward, you know, and I got on well with them and that sort of stuff, you know.
126.MM: But you said from the outset you said you were very ambitious anyway, you know that you would push yourself sort of thing? ·
127 .CD: Yeah I was tough out like that you know and I worked hard so and then .. .
128.MM: When was your first competition do you remember?
129.CD: That was it there, this one here. How old is that now, Jesus ...
130.MM: 1971 the Catering Exhibition, excellent and in Liberty Hall. First prize gold medal.
13l.CD: For beefWellington. That's me there.
132.MM: And ifl'm not mistaken now Willie Ryan had sort of coached you?
133 .CD: That's right yeah.
134.MM: And do you know how I know that the original way I know that is when I was a commis, when I was in Catha! Brugh a Street Willie Ryan was taking a class. You know he was covering a class and the dish was beef Wellington and he mentioned to us because you had, I think you were out in the Park in Blackrock at the time and you were one of our idols because you'd made it, you know what I mean. You'd had the one star and the whole lot, you know and he said 'listen lads you see this beefWellington, I coached him' he said. He coached Colin O'Daly as to how to make this.
135.CD: (Laugh).
136.MM: Do you know what I mean. And he showed us how to do it and the great thing it was those little things, you know, I suppose when teachers when they give a bit of personal information to it you remember it, like I still remember. So it was great, so 1971 first prize.
137 .CD: And making omelettes as well.
138 .MM: Fifteen seconds to make an omelette.
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PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2 .0 http://www.pdf4free.com 139.CD: Come here make an omelette.
140.MM: So the first prize, so when you got this gold say okay 1971 right, was there an adrenaline rush there?
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14l.CD: Well there must have been, because that created the impetus and the platform. You know what, I can be as good as everybody else, you know, in your head, for the first time in your life probably you saw a way forward so I think that was really important, you know and then I was so enthusiastic, I obviously created an energy when everybody else saw me and they created good energy, you know, to encourage me to go forward you know. So they took an interest in me so it was kind of like a little family. You know there was internal tension and frictions and energy but
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PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www.pdf4free.com we were like a close family. I think industry was like a family because everybody knew when there was something happening anywhere in time. Everybody knew what was going on and who was leaving where and you watch and we can put you in there. I'll give so and so a call so it was like interaction you know. Networking.
142.MM: And you're being nurtured by the older crowd? Yeah, yeah, excellent.
143.CD: I did it so well that when I was there who was interested and I had the potential but I probably didn't see it either but they'd always encourage you to... Because I was always on time, I was always in a clean uniform, and I'm great believer through my whole career, treat people with the respect that you want to be treated because when I was going up the ladder people helped me and were good to me. And I've supported people coming up because when you make a mistake and you're coming down the ladder that's a sign of how you've treated people when you're going up. So always treat people how you want to be treated and I feel I treated people pretty well and when I ran into trouble later on, when I lost the Park in Blackrock and they lost 1.1 million and I tell you I lost everything, and people were very good, very supportive to me when I was coming down the ladder, that bumpy ride back, you know, and I came from the lofty heights with two Michelin stars and all that to working in Bewleys again you know, bacon, egg and sausage, you know and building it all back again, you know.
144.MM: We'll move up from here. So you were six years, you were here until around '74 or so, '74/'75 in the airport. Where was your next move? You had done competitions, you'd been at this stage you'd been to Torque had you?
145.CD: The nice thing about that time I think was you went with the flow. Someone said you know there's something coming up in Ashford Castle in Cong, in Mayo. So that's where you should be. Now that's your next obvious move as opposed to sitting down working it out what's the next. So I'd moved away from home at that stage and I went down to work in Ashford Castle, old man Huggard.
146.MM: Who was chef there?
147.CD: I went in under Ken Wade from the Russell hotel. Ken Wade and I started the same day. He was head chef.
148.MM: He was head chef, okay.
149.CD: So Ken would put together his team and Ken lived on the Rise, he was one of my neighbours.
150.MM: Ah right, so you would have known him, yeah.
15l.CD: But he was few years older. We knew each other but we didn't hang out with each other.
152.MM: Yeah the Russell shut down in ' 74. That was the end of the Russell so Ken Wade would have ...
153.CD: Ken had gone to the Bahamas.
154.MM: Ah right he would have gone with Pierre Roland to the Bahamas.
155.CD: Yeah and they were going back and forth so he decided to come back and then he was offered Ashford Castle so he was putting together the team for Ashford and I was chef de partie at the time. And I was very much, you know, there was a man called Charlie Harold, you know, it was the old fashioned; they'd smoke their own salmon, they had their own garden, the girls used
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PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www.pdf4free.com to line up at 6 pm, hands out, with the hair back and be inspected. After breakfast Charlie Harold would take out the green base, put on the white gloves, and take out the silver.
156.MM: And Charlie Harold he was the head waiter was he or was he sort of restaurant manager?
157.CD: He was sort of butler, come head waiter, come a very close friend of the family. He was there forever, a very old fashioned 'upstairs, downstairs' kind of gentlemen.
158 .MM: Do you remember who else worked with you there. Who else was in the crew there do you remember?
159 .CD: There was Ken Wade, there was Bobby Briggs. You met the chef who was head chef in the Berkley Court a couple of years ago. He was the pastry chef in the Russell and he was with us in Ashford. He was big into football. He died actually relatively recently. Tony Butler. Tony passed away since as well and there was a guy called ...
160.MM: Where did Bobby Briggs come from where had he been working, did you know?
161.CD: He was with Ken in the Bahamas and he was also in the Russell hotel.
162 .MM: He's was probably ex Russell as well?
163.CD: He's ex Russell hotel as well. There was a guy called Michael Garvin, was the second chef, or the third chef then. So a kind of a team of us went there.
164.MM: And it probably wasn't that big of a team anyway because it wasn't. ..
165.CD: It seemed big at the time but it wasn't you know. Well it was different living in the west oflreland, living in the village.
166.MM: Yeah very quite, and it's a beautiful place.
167.CD: A beautiful place but it was bought over by John A, Mulcahy around that time as well so there's lots of energy. John A Mulcahy from America, so he used to bring in all the Presidents, you know, all the top names throughout the world used to come and stay there. Like the Kennedys, and it actually became very high profiled and talked about place to be. So that was a good place to have on your CV, you know. During the summer times going out on the boats and sitting in Lough Corrib and Lough Conn and it was great you know and then I was there until I was 21 or 22, two or three years, around 1973 and 1974.
168.MM: Two or three years yeah. What did you learn there that you hadn't seen in the airport? Was there a difference in style there, was it that you're growing your own stuff, stuff was coming out of the garden and things like that?
169.CD: The food in Ashford was never actually aspired, for its time, when you look back now Ashford never really attained, when you look at the surroundings in the castle it never aspired to its full potential. I always said if you had the food of The Park in Ashford Castle it would probably be one of the best hotels in the world, because the team at the Park were very dedicated. I'm not saying the Ashford team, it was just a different. It's about your leader.
170.MM: I was going to say that?
171.CD: Ken had come from the Russell background.
172.MM: So he had the ability to do it?
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PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www.pdf4free.com 173.CD: They had the ability to do it but they still the old school, Pierre Roland and all that sort of..
174.MM: So what you're saying is that at this time things were changing. This was nouvelle cuisine sort of kicking in to a certain extent?
175 .CD: Even a bit later.
176.MM: But was there a change coming from the old guard, because the old guard was really nearly Escoffier?
177 .CD: I think they were still there at some stage because I still remember the time even in my early days having The Park in Blackrock, probably before that even, Irish people, men particularly coming into lunch or dinner still looking for the well done fillet steak, peas and chips and 'why don't you order the wine becaus.e I know nothing about wine'. But then very suddenly when people opened their eyes and they travelled more and we joined the EU, people travelled more, now Irish people sit back and say 'well we're all having fish so I'll pick a nice white' or 'this Chablis is good or why don't we have the Sancerre because its nice and light'. So I saw that evolution.
178 .And I think because of my, I always projected, not projected but saw myself to myself, its like when you look at some of the Polish people and I've trained a few Polish people up lately when they came into the EU. They were unspoilt, untrained, had no knowledge ofwhat they were doing. They couldn't look at page thirty-four of Roger Verge or Paul Bocuse and say ' yeah I want to make that'. You would now train them from raw and say this is how you do it. This is how I want it done. So it's like teaching them to play the piano, they hit the right notes but you didn't have to break down the barrier of what they'd learnt before.
179 .MM: Yeah it was a blank canvas as such yeah?
180.CD: And like I was very much a blank canvas, you know, so you could train, you could mould them but also as well as mould them you could bring out, they had a natural like for music or for catering a natural raw flair, a feel for it that could actually flourish and grow because it wasn' t inhibited by something else. So I think that's and I think we have that when some of the Eastern European blocks joined in Ireland and its only in recent times when you can't get a chef you look at you kitchen porter, a Polish guy washing pots there and he has a PhD or he is well educated and already watching to see what everybody else is doing and how do you make that up . What is that? And then you come down to the guy and you're up to there in the crap up to there and you call him up 'come here, follow me, do this with me' and next thing they develop a flair to. .. And then a couple of months later they'd go 'any chance of a job because you know what although I'm well educated I don't really want to wash pots all my life, I would love to learn how to cook.' And now there are four or five lads in Roly's on the range and actually ... They have it. They are the back bones of the thing you know.
18l.MM: Yeah, brilliant isn't it.
182.CD: So that's. .. I suppose I was that piece earlier on. I was the one who saw myself not having the ... And then you've got to sort of modernise, you took, you modernised the old dishes and then you sort of looked at like when I'd the Park in Kenmare, you know, we used to get, go out and pick hedge row berries so you'd make hedge row sorbet. You smoked your own salmon. The Newport House in Mayo we used to get because everything came, the old lady who owned Newport House was very eccentric, a bit like Howard Hughes. She gave everything in a plastic bag and 'yes chef, now chef, no, no, you can't do that I want you to do this' but everything was from the garden.
183.MM: Did you go to Newport after Ashford.
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PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2 .0 http://www .pdf4free.com 184.CD: No I came back to Dublin, after Ashford. Where did I go after Ashford? I think my health ran into trouble because I was living in Ashford I was living down the country, working mad hours so it wasn't really good for me so I came back to Dublin. I went to work with Mervyn Stewart for a while in the Clarence. So I docked around Dublin for a year or two. I went through a moving kind of phase you know and then I met my wife.
185.MM: Do you remember where else because say you were a few months in the Clarence. You were probably dodging around a few places.
186.CD: Crofton Airport Hotel, and Clarence hotel, and I did a year in UCD.
187 .MM: Oh now when you say UCD you're talking about Belfield are you? And that was almost like a purpose built canteen as such?
188.CD: Yes, I met my wife in UCD. She was a student there. So again I got very tired and needed a nine to five and be off the weekend type of job for a while so I kind of did that piece. Then my first job as a head chef was in Renvyle House in the West of Ireland. I got married then, you know.
189 .MM: What age were you when you got married?
190.CD: Twenty-three. So we moved to Renvyle, Hugh Coyle was there.
191.MM: This is prior Tim O'Sullivan isn't it?
192.CD: Tim worked for me sort of around the time, the year before I left.
193.MM: So Hugh Coyle was the owner.
194.CD: And Tim is still there. Hugh was the manager. John Coyle, DD Coyle, his uncle owned it and then John Coyle, but then John, but they were all kind of a family in a way but Hugh was the manager.
195 .MM: So that was your first position as a head chef?
196.CD: That was quite good to sort of cut your teeth on you know. And then I had a wife and wanted a bit of responsibility, so that was interesting.
197 .MM: And you moved down as family. Like the two of you moved down living. What was your wife doing?
198.CD: Well we'd two children at that time and I think we were expecting our third and then my own boys were very ill and so after two or three years, looking at the future we need to be near hospitals, we need to be near education, so it evolved again. You get tired of being an itinerant running around the country from hotel to hotel from Ashford to Renvyle to Newport House.
199.MM: Yeah so you went from Renvyle.
200.CD: No Newport came after Renvyle. When I came back to Dublin again for a while and then I went to Newport House and then after Newport House it was Ashford, it was the Park in Kenmare.
20l .MM: Because Newport House had a Michelin star, had it?
202.CD: It had an Egon Ronay. It hadn't a star when I was there.
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PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2 .0 http://www.pdf4free.com 203.MM: It was very highly rated anyway. What was the name of the owner there?
204.CD: (Francis) Mumford-Smith.
205 .MM: And you would have gone there as head chef? I suppose a lot these places were probably fairly seasonal were they?
206.CD: Yeah, Renvyle and that, I did a few seasonal things around, and it was up and moving with family every year, it just became not a runner really, you know.
207.MM: You were back in Dublin again for a briefwhile, where was that, probably in some hotel or somewhere regular was it?
208.CD: When I came back to .Qublin I can't remember. I was in Dublin for a while and we decided we'd go ...
209.MM: This is before you went down to the Park in Kenmare I'd say?
210.CD: TheParkinKenmare.
211.MM: Anyway it's no place outstanding sort of thing. It was sort of marking time sort of, making your money, keeping your family going till you planned your next move sort of thing yeah.
212.CD: And also you came back because again because the boys were ill and that. You came back and you did other, you did all sort of jobs for a while because now you had to put your career on hold because there was something else to be sort of taken care of, and that was it, you know.
213 .MM: So tell me how did you get down to the Park in Kenmare? How did that come about?
214.CD: Well the Newport, I went to Newport House and after Newport House it had come to the end of the season and I was tired moving. and we said just the Park had opened. I didn't know very much about The Park then.
215 .MM: Well Francis Brennan had he taken it over at this stage?
216.CD: They were only a few months open. They had a French chef who came and didn't work out, on a massive ego trip and all that sort of stuff and someone said 'there is a job going in the Park Hotel' and I didn't notice it here but hadn't really raised its head above the parapet, so I went down. I went for the interview for the job and there was a sort of, they were aiming for the upper echelons and they had this French chef that didn't work out but I had the job for six months to see it worked out until he got another famous French chef. So I had this Dutch man called Ernst Weeland, who had owned the hotel, who was telling me, in my country, that he was giving me a job. So I said ' look I can do it, and we'll get a Michelin star in eight months' and I was sort of laughed at. So eight months to the day we got a Michelin star.
217 .MM: You did it straight away?
218.CD: Yeah, straight away you know, but I worked all the hours. But of course I was thinking about leaving then, I couldn't, next thing I was staying on a yacht in the south of Spain for three weeks (laugh). So you're not going anywhere because once you go the star goes with you and this is what they wanted you know. So that was really, the Park was my big break. Absolutely you know.
219.MM: Who was with you in the Park? You would have built a team.
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PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www.pdf4free.com Figure CD.3: Photo of Francis Brennan with Colin O'Daly, The Park Kenmare
220.CD: Well there was myself and a great young team. A very vibrant young team and they were very energetic. There was John Dunne, there was Fergus Moore, who is now in Sheen Falls but I don't think he's cooking anymore. There was who else? There was a very good guy in pastry; he was working with me then, James Mulchrone.
221.MM: So you had a young team, sort of young energetic professionals. What year did that star come?
222.CD: '83 I think. Actually I have the, there's the list of awards there now.
223.MM: 1983, one star in 1983, yeah, brilliant. So you got this star, you were being treated now like a King then down there because they wanted to hold on to you, is it? You mentioned something about yachts (laugh).
224.CD: There was a silent energy there that, you know, you're not going anywhere you know. But also we had sort of settled in. We had settled down there. You would be part of something that was exciting. And the talk of the country and the talk of the village so Kenmare village it sort of brought so much too that and it brought a lot of employment because a lot of the girls and boys worked there and didn't have to go to England, you know, again because of my experience in
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PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www.pdf4free.com Newport House you bought local, you hired local, you know, you bought lobster and you'd come in the office and you'd look at the market price. You stuck the Independent up, you know, fish market prices so I gave you what they were paying in Dublin for your lobster and so he looked at me with surprise you know. So you treated people well so when you were down the local pub there was also a pint on the counter for you. 'My daughter is fmishing school this year, any chance of a job as a waitress for the summer?' And as a result, I always remember one morning this old lady sitting at a table having her breakfast with her son and she was having her little bit of brown bread and when the waitress was going by 'oh this brown bread is very thick' and like a shot that waitress herself would come back with thinner brown bread and say to her 'my grandmother hates thick brown bread too'. So you had a natural, they were used to doing that.
225.MM: That's the Irish hospitality isn't it?
226.CD: That's the Irish hospitality that's not there now. So the woman was thrilled and that was the old Irish hospitality. Its like the music, it's a natural flair that's there and you've just got to bring it forward. You don't have to pump it, you don't have to have a PhD, you know it's a natural, you know listening and doing what you do naturally, you know, and these people weren't spoiled and they were thrilled to have a job working in the Park, you know. They were famous, you know, 'well I work in the Park', you know and they looked after their job, and the staff quarters I always made sure they had a rota there for cleaning, hovering and dusting and someone inspected and made sure they all went to mass on a Sunday. So that sort ofstuffbecause he felt a responsibility because they were away from their mothers and futhers and if they were at home, the mother 'come on get your ass out ofbed you're going to mass.' You know so there's that kind of thing.
227 .That in turn created silent energy that actually created success in the Park. Its never about one person, it's never about me, but it was about leadership. It is about the people you pull round you and I'll always remember doing interviews with Francis in the Shelboume and we come through this room, he and I would go out for lunch and we'd be interviewing in that room in there and we'd walk through here, Francis would say 'the girl on the right, do you see the guy sitting by the window and the other guy over here I bet you they're the ones we'll take. And we always used to work it. We would know in seventy seconds to employ someone. Could you come through the door- Bling.
228 .MM: It was a bit of magic or whatever yeah.
229.CD: 'I want this job, that's why I'm here'. But the way they came through the door, before you opened their CV, 'that's the girl we want'. So it's a great learning curve because it was new. You were actually breaking, you were looking, you were boxing outside the box, the square. You were standing here looking back. You weren't in there saying 'well who are we going to get?' No but you placed yourself over there. You'd see the fish in the bowl going round and you'd imagine, and there's always one fish going this way and we'll pluck him out you know. But also you grew and you learnt because there was a time when you had mad days where you weren't the easiest to work for and then when I had a row with you at 9 am, I'd have a row with you at 9 am but now you're at the stage where you can I talk to you at 4 pm in my office. At 9 am I have a problem with you, at 5 pm we have a problem. I'd like to hear your side of the story. Make a pot coffee, so now you have, you wish you knew now ...
230.MM: Wish you knew then what you know now sort of thing?
23l.CD: And there's a great part in that because now with all the other people you have to manage you have to work it out because if your from Bangkok or from China and someone else is from Poland and someone else is from Romania I can say something to you that's actually funny but ifl say it to someone else its not funny.
232.MM: It's offensive maybe, yeah.
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PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www.pdf4free.com 233 .CD: You have a measure. I've a wicked sense of rumour, you know. In recent years you're kind of very careful (laugh) but I still have a mad streak you know.
234.MM: Tell us something, for you to get the Michelin star, what sort of food, was it French classical food you went after or did you start bringing in your own slant on it or what was your aesthetic as such with your food?
235.CD: I think it's a little bit what they're. trying to do now. Natural, raw ingredients, buy local, shopping local, having the old herb garden and also using material that are at your hand and also keeping, you see when you look at strawberries from Israel and this and that, you know, really we look forward to the game season because it gave a energy. The cold winter comfort food feeling. Then spring time you kind of hit the wild salmon, the spring lamb and the fresh strawberries where you brought at the best price when there's a glut but also quality was the best. So it rolled on an axis and so we'd change our menus four times a year and you'd change your specials every week so it rolled on that kind of axis you know and then you were looking and then again you'd always say to lads that right I want two new starters today and I want four new main courses. Now from that somebody would like something and there's something in that and you'd going to be parking the car and you would think, monkfish, apple honey baked with a curry sauce. You know something.
236.MM: Composing.
237 .CD: Like I paint, all these things in my mind I'd paint and I've exhibitions in New York. I got up yesterday morning I had this idea in my head about, now this picture and before breakfast that's just straight from my head so you just kind of. ..
238.MM: Go with the moment.
239.CD: Go with the moment. You might just go out with the kids for a walk maybe and also keeping simple. You know I was always very good at sort of, what enhances that flavour. Now you're not going to put a cheese sauce on the sole of the bone say for example because it just kills it. So you just give some. So you want to pan fry it in parsley and squeeze a lemon juice. It's a question of little was more and you can ask for more if you want more but you were never in (inaudible) I suppose when it came to prepare like in my early days, this is my food if you don't like it there's plenty of other restaurants in Dublin, you know, because I'm a specialist like Kevin Thornton.
240.Where Roly's now you have to step outside the box and be with the customer because you do five hundred meals a day and we have the rich and famous, husbands and wives, boyfriends and girlfriends, business men, business women, bus conductors, taxi drivers, what do they want. So you're moving from the spotlight on you're here through tradition have to be there and you have to, you have to put yourself with the customers is. What is it they, like mussels, I'm tired looking at mussels or creme brnlee but you know, we sold four hundred portions last, we got three hundred portions or whatever it did so the customer is telling you something, that they were mussels and the mussels are a great favourite and I think when you go to that level its about systems, its about listening and its about dishes that become household dishes, you know, customary dishes, signature dishes and so you had to work very different. So I probably find being in a partnership much more difficult because you haven't the freedom to be who you want to be. So in recent years I probably would have found that much more difficult because there is a cost element, there is staff elements. There is, you got to pay your rent, you got to do this, you got to do that, you know, all the stuff so you have to have kitchen percent. You've got to run like ...
24l.MM: It's a business, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www.pdf4free.com 242 .CD: It's a business. I'm a chef and an artist and I'm not a whiz kid business man so people like me need ...
243.MM: Good business people around you. Clearly the ambition because I think what was it '86 or so when you came to Blackrock.
244.CD: '85 .
245.MM: '85 yeah. So this is '83 so you really after two years in Kenmare like with your star, you know, you had the ambitions that you wanted your own or was it that Dublin lured you?
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Figure CD.4: Congratulatory Letter from Ernie Evans to Colin on winning Egon Ronay Star
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PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www.pdf4free.com 246.CD: Again one of our kids died and that was sort of and then Eoin was very ill at that time so we needed to be back in Dublin. We needed to near hospitals, we needed to be near because we were going to have problems in the future and living in the back end of Kerry was not the place to be and so we came back. I came back to Dublin, a normal job, buy a house and we've tried all this other stuff, that's fme. Now you'll always be in a position to get a good job or whatever. So went out and saw a house in Templeogue as well and when we were coming back on the bus and I saw this sign 'Restaurant for Sale' (laugh). So I went back and got my deposit back and bought the restaurant. I hadn't told me wife (laugh). She was mad when I bought this place with the deposit of the house (laugh).
247.MM: This is Main Street Blackrock?
248.CD: Ah there was a bit of friction for a while, as you can imagine.
249.MM: As I can imagine yeah.
250.CD: (Laugh) Blackrock, it was, you know, one of those situations, I went to AlB in Foster Place, never had an account there, the manager went back on the chair and he said 'I actually like you' so can you be open in two weeks? He had done his account also and he'd a problem with the person who was there and I think he was glad to have someone coming in. But no interior designers, no architects, no ...
25l.MM: Who was there before you?
252.CD: It was a coffee shop, a dingy old place. So we were in and opened in two or three weeks and we started lovely. Then again it was old fashioned, the bank manager liked me and he was ringing every day and saying 'the lodgings not great today Colin, what is the problem' and he would ring around, as well as giving me the money, he would ring around the different banks and tell them if you're entertaining tonight, go to The Park Blackrock.
253.And then I went through weeks wondering would it ever going to take off and then Helen Lucy Burke came one day and gave me a write up. I hate telling you about this, this place is great and blah, blah, blah, she gave me a great article and next thing we moved into about forty people a night, fifty people and sixty. We were booked out six weeks in advance, you know.
254.MM: And did John Dunne come with you from the Park? Who came with you when you opened up?
255.CD: John Dunne came yeah. Well John, well there was Sandra Earl who'd worked with me. Some of the old reliables joined me and they sort of, they came and went a bit but James Mulchrone, Sandra, Fergus and John Dunne, Mark Phelan. We never really, none of them never really took major positions afterwards and some of them were very good creative guys. Some of them were good kitchen managers. It was a bit like a partnership in Roly's. I have one, my partners don't have and they'll never have but they have what I don't have and never have. I think I've always employed people who I think were better than me because they always kept you on your toes and got the best out of the business. I was never afraid to find good people. And it really worked you know and it gave a vibrancy to the business, you know.
256.MM: There was a fellow Wall there I believe at some stage was there.
257.CD: That'sright.
258.MM: Because I remember there was a young guy, there was a guy who was in class with me now, Jason Wall and he worked with you but his brother I think had worked with you before or something like that.
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PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www.pdf4free.com 259 .CD: Jason was a gas man. I remember saying to Jason, 'hey mister any chance of a job', and I liked him, I said 'Jason how did you ever get interested in cooking?' He said 'well my mother used to put the bacon and cabbage on at the same time.' (laugh) He was a gas man . But he was the character in the kitchen. He was the wild buck. There was guy Giles O'Reilly, Giles is now a head chef in Dail Eireann.
260.MM: That's right, yeah. He was in Whites in the Green or something prior to that yeah. So Giles worked with you as well?
26l .CD: Yeah Giles worked with me for a long time. Giles, he's not eccentric at all but Giles is a handful to manage. He had creativity, he's a good ideas man, you know. Giles is gas and I was talking to Giles only last week and Giles was a maverick you know.
262.MM: He'd worked in Arbutus .as well I think?
263.CD: And Michael Clifford and I were good friend Lord have mercy on him. So we all came up together, Michael Clifford, myself.
264.MM: Yourself and Michael Clifford were really, in a way arrived at the same time. Do you know much about Michael's background or where he started or where he trained?
265 .CD: No I don't.
266.MM: Like I know he was in Whites on the Green, but you don't know where he was before Whites or whether. ..
267.CD: He was in Arbutus for a long.
268.MM: Ah, he was okay, alright. Oh so he would have trained with the Ryan 's then?
269.CD: He was with Ryan's a long time. Then he was in France. Did he come from France to work with ...
270.MM: Well they would have had contacts in France anyway. They probably set him up. I can check that with Declan anyway because I spoke to Declan.
271.CD: Michael was with them for a long time and then Michael went to Dublin. I got him the job actually with Whites. And then he went back to Cork then.
272 .MM: But Whites was a moment. Whites on the Green was quite good wasn't it?
273 .CD: Peter and Alicia, they weren't restaurateurs but they were stylish people and that and they invested a lot of money in that. Oh yes it did very well, you know.
274.MM: How long did Whites stay over do you remember?
275 .CD: A couple of years.
276.MM: It was sort of a moment there, which was around 1984 or so or around that time, '84 or '85 around that time. Around the same time you were open up in the Park.
277 .CD: We were open in the Park at the time.
278.MM: It was probably '86 or so yeah?
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PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www.pdf4free.com 279.CD: It was the late 80s, the middle to late '80s yeah.
280.MM: And then Michael went off and opened up Clifford's down in Cork. And similar to yourself actually he was extremely successful in this one building and then he sort of moved to another building?
28l .CD: A restaurant and bistro type of thing.
282.MM: And it didn't happen you know?
283.CD: Absolutely yeah and cause when I moved to the Park up the road the place needed to be refurbished, the spirit and licensing law was changing, there was a rent review coming up and the banks sort of said look it the premises was on the comer for sale why didn't you do it. So I borrowed a lot of money and it was spectacular restaurant.
284.MM: Yeah I ate in it.
285.CD: And I got the olive tree in from Israel, Jesus madness you know.
286.MM: I think part of your problem was, you see, I grew up in Blackrock and I couldn't find the restaurant. I was looking for the restaurant and I couldn't find it, do you know what I mean, because it was up here and if you didn't know exactly where it was you would have walked by, do you know what I mean. You literally like had to sort of ask someone where it was. I think that was .. .
287.CD: And also the road system changed the week we opened, because the road used to come straight up past, up straight.
288.MM: It was one way.
289.CD: So you had to go back up the garage and back down and around you know.
290.MM: You were saying Helen Lucy gave you this great review. Suddenly that changed things overnight really. That was the Tribune she was in at the time yeah so that turned things around so suddenly ...
29l .CD: And she was feared at that time.
292 .MM: Ah yeah she was, by Christ was she feared.
293 .CD: Seriously feared.
294.MM: So that turned things around and you had what, you had around three or four years of good, probably three years of really good business and as you said the rent was rising.
295 .CD: And also the Gulf War happened and interest rates rose and if you have a business and you have clients, don't go to The Park in Blackrock or Patrick Guilbaud's or Thomtons, because it's a bad image for our companies to see that we're wasting money so now you're expected to kind of cut, so now you have to go through and say Roly's, and I'm your client and I'm happy to do business with you because you're being careful with my money as well yeah, and you're responding to it. And that's what happened because we were mainly expense account.
296.MM: Well actually there's something else there now as well because it was '87 there was a change happened in expense accounts and I think ' 89 it got knocked on the head altogether?
297.CD: That's right.
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298.MM: I think fifty per cent in '87 and I think '89 I think it was taken away altogether. So that had an effect on you clearly?
299.CD: Clearly, yeah well especially when you're in the early days of borrowing and when you've borrowed over half a million, well the guts of a million, eight hundred thousand and yeah a huge responsibility on your own and then the bank decided you know we're going to close. Somebody said to me the banks are going to close in on you, you know. That was sort of, Jesus, that was a horrendous time, you know.
300.MM: Do you think what you borrowed when you look back at now from what you know now from business and from projections and cash projections and sales and that sort of stuff do you think you had bite off too much in your borrowings as such. Could you, you know, had you filled that room for lunch and dinner were you ever going to make enough to clear what you borrowed?
30l .CD: I think if everybody had held their nerve a little bit longer you might have made it. It was thin as it was but you needed someone with courage to say look it you' ll close this guy down we'll get nothing, we'll work with him we've some chance of getting something back. This is a long run, lets try and make it happen you and again it's a question if you knew then what you know now you would do it very differently. Because say I'll put you as the financial guy and I have to listen what you 're telling 'Colin the lodgement is down, you've got to get more turnover. You're charging too much for that or you vegetable bill today is up through the roof. But I'm creative and I would say 'oh lets do it, come on'. But I needed someone the art needed to managed also and I think that's true with a lot of business, you know, and I don't think its there at the moment. There's nobody with that eccentricity or madness to take that risk at the moment, you know. I took risks, they were there to take, and I was sort of, you can say fool hardy you know, well I'm not arrogant and I'm not fool hardy, but I have lived on the edge. That's for sure, I've seriously lived on the edge (laugh).
302_MM: You had your star in Kenmare, did you get your star back in Blackrock?
303.CD: We got the Egon Ronay and we got the Red M. We were probably on the verge, looked like we were on the verge of getting the Michelin star for the Park because that year we had
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PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www.pdf4free.com inspectors in three and four, oh six and eight time and they were looking very closely and I kind felt okay.
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Figure CD.6: Congratulatory Letter from Gerry Galvin to Colin (3/12/88)
304.MM: This is about to happen sort of thing?
305 .CD: And it was certainly on the cards that it was going to happen. Whether it was that year or the next yeah we would have got something because we would have got it for what we were doing as opposed to we weren't chasing this Michelin star and I always said lads whatever we get, so when we do get it we don't have to change course. Now getting is great craie.
306.MM: Holding on to it is another story yeah?
307 .CD: Holding on to it is another story.
308.MM: Yeah I was just saying because Dylan McGrath now and Oliver Dunne both got theirs yesterday for the first which was brilliant you know what I mean but ...
309 .CD: But now the work is to be done.
310.MM: Now they have to worry because they have to hold onto it (laugh).
3ll.CD: And no matter what if you loose it next year which they won't loose it if and when they should ever loose it doesn't mean that, people's perception is that the restaurant has gone down but a point of fact, it will still be a very good restaurant do you know.
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PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www.pdf4free.com 312.MM: Absolutely. You hit a real low here. The banks effectively sort of foreclosed on you or whatever and you hit a low then in your personal life as well. You split is it with your wife at that time. Was it at that stage that you split was it?
313 .CD: Before Rose, that's sixteen years ago and the Park had gone wallop.
314.MM: At that time the funny thing about this is because I remember some of this, you know, I was like an observer at this time because I went to get a job with you and then I actually took a job in Clarets and then you rang me back but I was working across the road so I stayed there at the time but you having lost the Park I remember that you went to represent Ireland in the Bocuse D 'Or. Tell us about that because that would have been in a way, you know, people were gathering around and trying to support you but probably it was the last thing you needed?
315 .CD: Well it's a great time to. know who you're friends are and people in the industry were really good to me. I'll always remember, John Howard and Patrick Guilbaud were sort of coaching me at the time and they were sort of saying well, I was living in the West of Ireland. I was driving a hearse, then bringing sheep in off the mountain, keeping out of town and then John Howard one day rang me.
316.MM: Just bringing you back to that little piece of information. When you were saying you were in the West of Ireland were you back around Renvyle was it? .
317 .CD: I'd friends up there.
318.MM: That's what I'm saying, you went back to your friends and off the radar sort of thing?
319.CD: And there was two people in particular I remember that I was very close to he. He was a head master, Leo Hallicy he was the head master in the school down there. Leo himself is an artistic kind of person. A bohemian very free kind of spirited person, so I spent some time with him but then John Howard rang me one day and say look I was going to France and they had been coaching me in Patrick had coached me to get my head straight and so they said well, will you come to Dublin tomorrow? So I arrived up and this hearse going chuck, chuck, bang you know. I said 'let's meet in Jury's' and I was unshaven and I'd an Aran sweater on me and I walked into the bar and I looked up and said Jesus Christ, the people in both the hotel and restaurant industry had got together to have a lunch for me and they gave me £9,500 to keep me going for the corning year (laugh). So that was really special, and I was going off the France the following day so they wanted to give me a bit of a boost, you know. Even going back to the days of the Park, you know, when the Park went wallop a friend of mine rang me and said look, because we used to do all the Anglo Irish (diplomatic) meetings and all that sort of stuff, and said to me Colin, I think the bank are going to foreclose on you, I'll come around on Sunday with the horse box and we'll take whatever is value out so that'll keep you going for the coming year, you know. So I said fine. He said 'trust me I know what I'm talking about, the boys are going to close you down'. So he came round Sunday morning with the horsebox. I arrived in to work Monday morning. The place was like a supermarket closing down and the phone rang. The Department ofForeign Affairs told me there was an Anglo Irish meeting on today. The Special Branch were on the way out to seal off the road (laugh). On the phone, 'get back here with the equipment and the horsebox quick' (laugh). So he was standing there on the road, two Special Branch on the front door, two on the back with Uzi's, watching stuff coming off a horsebox (laugh). 'What's going on here' you know, 'just putting the restaurant back together'. Oh my nerves. I remember at 5 pm he rang me and said 'I'm on the way back'. I said 'don't, I don't care what they get. I really don't care but I'm not going through that again, not going through that'.
320.MM: Now who would have been at that meeting? Would Margaret Thatcher have been at that meeting or would it be before?
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PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www .pdf4free .com 32l.CD: All ofthem.
322.MM: Would it have been senior civil servants or would it have been the top guys?
323 .CD: And then just to go back to what we were saying before that, what was that we were saying.
324.MM: We were talking about your friends sticking by you and the idea of going to the Bocuse D'Or.
325.CD: I remember arriving in France, off the plane and the Italian team had arrived before with a big fan fair and there was a press conference at the airport and the French team arrived and it was like a Michael's Jackson's concert you know, pots and pans and all flipping and here was Colin O'Daly coming down the steps of the plane with his Dunnes Stores bag under his arm (laugh).
326.MM: Who went over with it because you'd normally you'd bring ...
327 .CD: John Howard and Patrick.
328.MM: No but normally don't you bring a commis with you or was that the situation at the time?
329.CD: No I'd a French commis with me and the French commis had no English so we got.. . I did well from the point I had nothing to loose whatever my head space was I just went for it you know. I got fourth out of the team nations but I remember the wall and television sets and the audience and oh my God and I must have went to hesitate to go on and Guilbaud says to me 'you survived the liquidation get your ass on there' (laugh).
330.MM: Tell us, when had you started eating out do you know what I mean. You know you're in the airport now, you know, from '68 to '72 or so. Did you start eating out in restaurants then or did you wait till later on?
33l.CD: No I'd say it was later one because, you know, again back in those days you didn't have the money, you had family, so it was more about cooking at home and I'm a coeliac as well so I used to cook my own bread and I used to, you know, you never did anything. Even when I'm here on my own cooking, I cooked the dinner last night. I was here I think but you still put the same care. I still go to the supermarket and do my week's shopping. I still buy fresh vegetables and I'll always put it up very carefully, I'll never just dump then like in a hurry now, you know, I have to go. I'll always no matter what I do cause eating is a sense of occasion and the best times you've had is with people sitting and even lately I suppose I don't eat out as much as I used to. Have people in sitting on this table and cooking here and having a bottle or two of wine. So it's that sense of, it's not always just about food but it's about a sense of occasion.
332.MM: Yeah and it's the people. I suppose what I'm getting at there is I'm trying to figure out about, I'm looking at say the '70s, I'm looking at from my I see that '67 Jammet's shut down, '68 the Red Bank shut down, '74 the Russell shut down. I'm looking at, you know, who came on. I was looking at the likes of maybe Snaffles in Leeson Street, the Lord Edward up in, you know ...
333.CD: I suppose I saw a window. I suppose you saw yourself, looking at John, that breed of people you've just talked about and they're maybe a little bit where I might be now the way it's different a bit. You saw yourself coming onto to the crest of the wave, you're young, you're energetic. It's a young single man and woman's game. There's a window of opportunity here that you make it. Don't look back and, a very good person said 'don't look back in ten years time and say I should have and I didn't'.
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PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www.pdf4free.com 334.Whatever we have to do, the window is now, it's today and that window and its just like a marathon, I've won many international races, your national and international races but there's a time you pass the baton but you do your best, don't give out and say 'I should have done and I didn't do it. Look at what John Howard, or Colin O'Daly did or so', you know, and have a chip on your shoulder, you know. I've a great sense ofhumour, I'm not bitter; I don't have a chip on my shoulder. I did what I did and that's great. Is there someone there that's better than that? Of course there is and it's the next wave coming on and I'm in transition at the moment or something and I look at the Ollie Dunnes and the people coming on after me. Do you want to get into competition with these? Are you mad because they are a different era. They are what you were twenty years ago. Now what you have and they don't have still you have maturity. You have, you're values are different, you're understanding is different, your ego, you're not on an ego trip.
335.It's about something else, you know, and sometimes now I can put paint on the canvas. I can do something for an exhibition somewhere and that's your expression. That's what's going on in my life, I can paint it and so it's kind of interesting. It's like the seasons flowing. Everything moves and flows and I think that's really and if you can sort o£.. I'd be quite a spiritual person I think I realise that, you know, pass open and sometimes you try to, I'll always travel the road less travelled. But there's a time in your life you've got to see around the comer a little bit as well. Look what's happening here, you know, and its got to be yeah, trying to go this way when you actually, you know, your body really wants to go this way.
336.MM: You were talking about John Howard and Patrick Guilbaud earlier, when would you have eaten in the Coq Hardi or would you have eaten in Guilbaud's? Do you remember when you first ate in these places?
337.CD: I suppose the first place I remember eating was like with them. You could, Dobbins Bistro, the Old Hob.
338.MM: What was the Old Hob?
339.CD: Leeson Street.
340.MM: The Old Hob on Leeson Street.
341.CD: I was head chef, yeah I knew what I was missing. I was the head chef in the Tandoori Rooms and the Golden Orient.
342.MM: With Mike Butt. Wow.
343.CD: With Mike Butt yeah. That's the bit of the link I was missing. I was with Mike for about two years and I knew there was a link there missing. So Mike used to get all the spices in from London and all that and so you learnt the chemistry more so of herbs and spices so that was a really interesting time too working with Mike. Mike is a tough guy to work for.
344.MM: Yeah he had the Golden Orient upstairs and the Tandoori Rooms downstairs yeah?
345.CD: So that was interesting you know.
346.MM: So we're looking here now, that's the '70s okay and that was Leeson Street. So Snaffle's was on Leeson Street at the same time was it not?
347 .CD: I would have been there a bit later but Snaffle's was that's right.
348.MM: Do you remember anything about Snaffles's?
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PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www.pdf4free.com 349.CD: I knew it but I didn't ... We used to dine out a bit and it was I think we didn't have a great, you know again, we still didn't have great dining out culture and you didn't have the money to be honest so you know my wife was a student at the time. We probably used to have people in more on a Friday night or we'd cook something at home and then as kids were growing up and that, you know, there was other things that were more important. So I think you more experimented. I think you more looked at books. I think you more looked at, you looked at the Darina Allen. Well I know Darina pretty well. You had to watch what was going on really. And then also there was like how could change that if I was doing something. I always had creativity that you could take an ingredient out of something or put something in so the innovation was really.
350.MM: Do you remember when you first ate in either the Coq Hardi or Guilbaud's or whatever?
351.CD: Yeah I think it was a sense of occasion because you looked forward to it and you got dressed up sort of, you know. Y, ou knew it was special because and you really appreciated it because you didn't and I think from being in the business especially when you became a head chef for the first time you came up to Dublin to go the exhibitions or wine tastings or you started moving in a circle of people who again, who were on that crest. We were moving, Michael Clifford, John Howard and we all knew each other and they would judge the competition and you were asked to judge competitions so you were in the bowl and then we'd all go down later on for a bite to eat and they'd say will you come? Ah yeah sure I'll come yeah. So you were exposed to that more then and then because you started, you needed to look and see what everybody else was doing and put your own edge on it or you slant. I never had the herd instinct, I suppose. I always wanted to be a little bit different, you know, fillet of sole with sea urchins, salmon souffle stuffmg I remember the judges having a problem because they'd never see sea urchins. So I won the gold medal because it had a subtle taste and it was very interesting but what do you mark it against, you know.
352.MM: Yeah because they'd no reference point as such. They'd never had it?
353 .CD: And so you kind of and again that came from my time in Kerry and different things that you use really that were local, you know, so it was about being different not for the sake of being different and not mixing like doing rhubarb with filled of pork, stuffed fillet of pork with rhubarb but things that complemented each other as opposed to, there was a stage there too that people were being different for the sake of being different.
354.MM: For the sake ofbeing different, yeah, yeah.
355.CD: Some of the combinations were daft, you know, 'what are you doing?'
356.MM: So tell me something, you'd a quiet period there for a while as you said yourself, you know what I mean and it was really, you'd a quiet probably two years before Roly's kicked off wasn't it. It was probably two or three years before Roly's kicked off?
357.CD: Roly's.
358.MM: I think the Park went around '92 was it?
359.CD: Yeah Roly's took off straight away. Roly's was booked out the month before it opened.
360.MM: No I don't mean that, what I mean is that Roly's didn't open in ' 92 , what I'm saying is you had a few years that ...
36l .CD: Roly's opened in 1992.
362.MM: Oh did it. So you were picked up fairly straight away.
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rB -- ~ ------ Figure CD.7: Menu from The Park, Blackrock 363 .CD: I was there hanging about for about a year I suppose. Yeah. 364.MM: You'd probably six or seven months of quiet period. 365.CD: Well I got a involved with Roly's before that because again I was going in as head chef but also I had to negotiate with the bank that if you don't take hand cuffs offbecause they'd taken everything but unless we came to a settlement figure, if you don't take the handcuffs off you'll get nothing and if you do a deal with me well I get a chance to start my life again and you get a chance to get your money back, so the frrst seven years, I pretty much worked to pay the bank back, but they took off the handcuffs and we did a deal. 366.MM: Tell us how did Roly's come about? You were in there with John O'Sullivan? 367 .CD: John O'Sullivan, Roly Saul, John Mulcahy and myself. 368.MM: Okay how did you know, did you know John O'Sullivan? John was up in Blakes previously to that. 369.CD: And John would have been a customer in The Park and he used to come in and out so we kind ofknew each other. 370.MM: And then John and Mulcahy had already in partners in... I think Mulcahy has been a partner in Blakes with John, had he not? 371.CD: No he wasn't a partner there. John Mulcahy was Mulcahy Associates. 552 PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www.pdf4free.com 372.MM: The equipment people, the catering equipment? 373.CD: To my knowledge he wasn't. 374.MM: I always felt he was. Maybe he wasn't? 375.CD: And maybe he was I don't think he was. 376.MM: And how about Roly Saul, he had Trudi's in Dun Laoghaire, had that been on the go for quiet a while or had that a name? 377 .CD: I think they were all on the golf because they got before Mick. John and I had spoke about Roly's in Balls bridge before they were ever involved John and I. But look he wanted to give up what I was at, and I didn't. I decided no I want to do this, I'm a purist and I just want to do my gourmet bit and John advised me against it but I went my own way. And again they're not really people I want to be in business with because they were a different breed of animal than I was and different energy where, you know, realistically going into to business with them when I did if I was ever going to make back I had to get into to bed with them because they were tough business people and if you're going to survive. And if you want to survive you want to get into bed with them. Like it or lump it you know. So that's the choice I had to make, you know, but I definitely felt that Roly's was a, yeah John and I were involved in that originally and then I pulled out and I think John and Roly and John Mulcahy. They were on a golfmg trip, over a few pints and said let's go ahead and do it and then I ran into trouble later on, so they approached with 'the one element that we need in this is you, so we can get your handcuffs on, get you sorted'. So that's how that evolved. And with John's business acumen, John Mulcahy was sort of outsider in a way, really John and I, we complemented each other and I let him do his bit and he let me do my bit, you know. 378.MM: And you had Roly then as sort of a presence front of house and you had your name, you know what I mean. I remember when it opened up the idea like seemingly it was like this magic combination, you know, you had this Roly character outside and you had Colin O'Daly in the kitchen. 379.CD: It was a great combination. And again we all worked together. It was great and that lasted, you know. 380.MM: Who was with you at the beginning? Was Warren Massey with you at the beginning or did he come later? 381.CD: Warren didn't come till a bit later. A guy called Rodney Doyle. He opened a place in Stillorgan Road there. James Mulchrone. James was working with me in Newport House as a kitchen porter after school and he was a good guy so I trained him up as he went along. He followed me and he's doing very well now. Do you remember Jean Michel Poulet? He wasn't at the very, well it was early enough days. Then there was Dave Walsh. You might remember Dave, he did the advanced pastry course in the college. Geraldine Doyle she was with Derry Clarke. Some of the lads came from London, Pat Quigley I think he was in the Green House in London or one of those. Hughy Highland but Hughy Highland was only a young commis. There were twenty six chefs in the kitchen. (looking at a picture ofthe crew ofRoly's) 382.MM: Now Paul Cartwright was there. 383.CD: Do you remember old Matt? 553 PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www.pdf4free.com 384.MM: Matt had worked up in Blakes with John, and he's dead now. Matt is a legend because Matt had started off in the Royal Hibernian Hotel and then he was in the Metropole. 385.CD: Matt was the father figure in the kitchen. 386.MM: I worked with Matt up in Blakes years ago. He used to make the soups. 387 .CD: You'd shake hands with Matt every morning. He had a good rapport with the youngsters. 388.MM: Matt Byrne isn't it? 389.CD: And Paul Cartwright is the head chef now. 3 90 .MM: You know the funny thing about because this Matt carries the story through because Matt let me see, '48 Matt probably s1:<)rted his training around 1940 in the Royal Hibernian and then went from there to the Metropole. Now he was in the Metropole for a long time with Michael Marley, he was sous chef there, you know and I'm not sure where, I'm not sure of the connection. I'd tell who'd know now is John O'Sullivan would know I'm sure. He probably went to work with John maybe in Flanagans or maybe in somewhere like that prior to going to Blakes or whatever so I must check that out. Matt Byrne, yeah a lovely man. 391 .CD: Matt and I got on really well. It was great for him to keep a link with the industry and the people and ifMatt was sick one of the lads went to check he was okay and they'd get a doctor and get food in so we looked after him for his last years and he looked after us too. He was great, you know. And he gave a nice sense, I always liked the sense of, he created the sense of family as well because they had respect for Matt so that made it nice. 392.MM: He'd a good sense of humour too you know what I mean. 393.CD: A gas man Matt. I was very fond of Matty. Myself, John, Pat, anybody else there now. (looking at the photo) 394.MM: You work with so many people in the industry that it's you know, you remember :fuces straight away but its names that are always difficult you know. 395.CD: Unbelievable what they go to you know. 396.MM: So reallyRoly's was a success straight away really wasn't it. 397.CD: From day one because I think the country was ready for it. 398.MM: Just on the brink of the Celtic Tiger? 399.CD: And then frontiers were opening, people were eating out. People had disposable income, people could eat out six or seven nights a week and yeah we moved up a gear very quickly and if you did a feasibility study to try and do it you couldn't do it. It was just the right people the right place. It was one of those things. 400.MM: At what stage then did you take over, or did you buy John out at some stage? 401.CD: No John is still there. 402.MM: Oh John O'Sullivan is still there is it? 403.CD: I bought Roly out. Roly left after, well for seven years we were all there and then we opened the Palm Beach in Florida and I moved out to Florida, and was back and forth and then my 554 PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2 .0 http://www.pdf4free.com second son died then so I came back and then it was difficulties around Roly and business things going on, so Roly decided it was time to go, so I bought Roly's shares so it was John and I and then we gave Paul some shares so the dynamic of the business moved and ... 404.MM: After a while Warren Massey sort of became head chef and Paul Cartwright really took, did Paul take over from Warren. Was that how it worked or was there someone else in between. 405.CD: Paul and Warren were good mates. 406.MM: But Paul had been over in London hadn't he? Had he worked in Roly's prior to going to London? 407 .CD: No he hadn't worked in Roly's. He worked in the Savoy in London. 408 .MM: He came straight back. . 409.CD: Warren was actually there and I was their head chef Warren was there, Warren's brother, he's in Venu now. 410.MM: That's right yeah, yeah, yeah. 411.CD: So then Warren decided he'd move on then. 412 .MM: Yeah he opened up his own place out in Rathgar or somewhere wasn't it? 413 .CD: And he got married and stuff like that so he moved on from that, you know. 414.1 suppose I became the sweetheart if you want of the industry there for a while cause I was a young lad who wasn't shooting his mouth off or being a big shot and think that kind of helps you along the way and you know you sort, if you want to take a loan of these (handing me the photo album of press cuttings, photo, and menus). •~' liiO I'I UI...~)· ii!OnlATH~I"f ' "!~~ . :M i eittliill"tilt~. lth•""'!IJ1\:~pu"t""'rt llf_v_,...,_ Figure CD.S: Photo of Nicholas and Catherine Healy from Dunderry Lodge 555 PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www.pdf4free.com 415.MM: I would love to and I will go through them and bring them straight back to you. I'll do that. 416.CD: Because there' s lots of interesting articles in them you know of different places and different times and they're a bit more accurate about dates and times than I'd be. There is Patrick Guilbaud and Alicia White, and do you remember Dunderry Lodge? 417.MM: Ah Dunderry Lodge yes, Nicholas and Catherine Healy. That was a moment; they had a Michelin star at the time. 418.CD: Yeah they were wonderful and we were there at the same time. 419.MM: What was I going to say, I don't have the list here but I know what the questions are. Number one was looking at the idea of technological changes, do you know what I mean, when you worked out in the airport, it ~ouldn't affect you as much because I think when you were out in the airport it was a fairly modern kitchen wasn't it like it was gas and it wasn't coal or anything like that? 420.CD: No but in Newport House in Mayo it was an anthracite range. It was like Concorde, you had to go to work early in the morning, or you'd go back early in the afternoon to pull out the damper and prime it because if a clicker got into it at 7pm you could go home but it was great for cooking joints, for roast lamb, you know for joints of meat and for baking for bread it was fantastic but it was oh man. It was like working in a three hundred seat restaurant because you're watching it like a hawk because the minute it got jammed the temperature dropped. 421 .MM: A nightmare, so like electricity and the gas and refrigeration and all that sort of stuff, later on I suppose blast chillers would have come in, but you know that might have come maybe in the '80s or so. Think technological changes, how about computerisation, you know, did you see that sort of change the restaurant industry? 422.CD: I think it certainly, you know, because I suppose to a degree like most things in that period throughout Europe or throughout the world, it was seat of the pants stuff, and technology has moved forward. Education is hugely important in the industry now. People with special needs. Not a day goes by that you don't have someone whose diabetic, coeliac, allergies to shellfish and you know I know from our own kitchen you have the cake tins to make the coeliac breads on the top shelf and nobody would use them for anything else but that. So there is a greater awareness and if someone says I've an allergy to peanuts because that means they get very seriously ill, so yeah there's no sort of 'ah don't mind you'll be grand you know' or 'there's only a little bit of flower in it, you'd be grand'. No it's not the point because again especially I suppose more so I feel with Roly's because it' s such a high profile business, its such a live performance and there's a live show everyday of a vast wide range of people that you do have to be very responsible. 423 .You do have to watch because there's always somebody, with hygiene, you know, like having the HACCP system in, using the right boards, using, people used to wash their hands after the toilet, you know, you've got so, we have one person employed for purchasing and for taking the temperature readings of food coming on and off the trucks. Keeping food in the kitchen, keeping samples of twenty-one days, having an independent food analyst who'd come in, you ring him tonight and say Colin I was in last night and I'm dying sick to the morning. I've got to be able to go to the reservation book and see where you were and what table you were sitting on, go pull out your docket, go to the fridge, pull out what you had, called the analyst come in, take away, you can get results within ten days so its not a, I suppose there was a great time, you know, where it was cool to have a restaurant. 424.It was sort of thought, well I suppose it's like anybody's job everybody thinks from far off that everybody else's job is easy. You know 'it's a fast buck' but its not it's a tough, tough game. Like fashion, like food, wine, fashion, everything has its upside and its downside but I think as it said 556 PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www.pdf4free.com already it's a single man and woman's game and it's a vocation I think for family life and for married life and you're working as you know when everybody else is off, you're working and that's the way it is. So it is difficult. 425.MM: That brings me on nicely to it's a single man or a single woman's game. Women when did you start noticing women coming into kitchens because I doubt there was many women chefs out maybe at the airport or whatever? 426.CD: No there wasn't any really you know. I suppose I was more aware of women, I suppose it was at the Park in Blackrock because I got a couple of girls along the way from the Killybegs School of Catering, Sandra Earl in particular, and she was I just had a ... I think whether it is male or female they have flair. I think with the technology we have its easier for women now and for men and I think with respect for people and for discriminations, be it class, creed or colour that boundary to a large extent has gone but there's still elements of there and bullying in the workplace, all that kind of stuff. . 427.MM: Would you have seen much of that? 428.CD: Ah yeah, you know you do. You know and there's part of it, you know, yeah you do and how necessary it is? I don't think it is necessary. I think if you can do, I think you can bring the best out of somebody without doing it. I know how pressurised getting into the cockpit. I know there was time I used to come to the top of the stairs every morning before lunch would start, or dinner would start and I'd flick mentally, switch, flash on all the lights in my head and I would go down the stairs and feel the weight of my body in every step, tum around come back up, feel my weight of my body in every step of the stairs and then the show was on. Now I'm right even if I'm wrong. Yes chef, no chef, yes chef, everybody stop everything can we start again. Tick, tick, tick, go so you can walk through the front door and you can say this place is going too fast, its going to slow, its just in your blood and at the end of service you'd be like a stack of wet potatoes, you'd go to the top of the stairs and you'd flash off all the lights. You walk down the stairs again and come back up and say 'phew it's over' . 429.But then when you go home there's nothing left for anybody else. There's nothing and even I've lived on my own for the last eighteen years and I've noticed that I've gone through Christmases and busy times, with notes on the back of bedroom door, things to do tomorrow, and I've got to stop this, this is crazy, you know. Like any job that you 're dedicated to but I think it is, is it better, and is the training better and is the attitude of trainers. I think probably the biggest thing that needs to be done is retrain the trainers and I think that's in a lot of industries now also. People like Colin O'Daly we've run our marathon, we've run our race. Now for me to now open another restaurant I'd need to take on a young guy in his 20s who is actually going to be my head chef and I have to listen to him because he's bringing something to the table that I don't have. I can actually become his second chef by supporting him and you know, so the dynamic, I can see the dynamic, I'm very lucky like that. Ifl was ever to do another restaurant, that's what I would be doing, I would put the team together. 430.MM: The final question because I actually have to go up to talk to Anita Thoma shortly. If you were to do it all again, would you change anything or what would you change? 431.CD: Would I do it all again. Yeah, I've no regrets, I certainly have no regrets and the industry has been very good to me and I've been very successful, I've worked very hard. Like everything to be successful or dedicated or devoted and vocated to something, something has to suffer, there's no doubt about that. So I think life's very much been a balance. I look at my private life, my kids, my working life and where I am now, there are swings and roundabouts. I have absolutely no complaints at all. There are always things that you would like to change but in the bad times they were the biggest learning times. You can't have it all one way. Probably, I think education probably is something I will look back at and say you know and the same time to be self educated I think you go in there blind without fear and you get on with it and you produce great things from 557 PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www.pdf4free.com that too. But certainly this generation, ifl was now this generation education is hugely important, hugely important because I think time on the chef, the Colin O'Daly type of chefs in the future is going to managing teams of Asian workers or Chinese workers or Indian workers or so we'll become the team leaders and will we be in there doing what I did when I spoke today, washing the pots to start. Chopping the parsley, peeling the potatoes, know something about the potato and learn something. Even now once a week I'll go into the wash up. I'll hang my coat on the door and I will give the guy a hand to stack the dishes and talk to him. I learn more about my business in that hour so I think that's gone. So I think we will be leaders buti also think we need people's skills and people's skills and education and know how you can treat people. There will always be the Marco Pierre Whites and we see the programmes on the television and is that all show? No its not. It is like that. Its clearly like that and I think the notoriety of the chef as well is something we have to be really careful of, because there's so many cookery programmes and people moving into the business and I think that's going to be the future. Cookery books and television programmes and the Kevin Thornton's set of crockery or delf or pots. 432.1t will be interesting to see where people like Colin O'Daly will move to next because I'm clearly probably in a place now where there's a transition coming and you say where do want to position yourself but its about enjoying the next piece of your life but having a connection with the industry. But certainly you've got to move over and people give out about the young generation coming up. There are some good people corning up, there's some seriously talented people but the dynamic is so different, so, so different because they don't want to do what we did. And are they right? Yeah they are right but it was right for us when we did it. That doesn't make them better than us or worse than us, you know. End oflnterview 558 PDF Creator- PDF4Free v2.0 http://www.pdf4free.com