Vol. 708 Tuesday No. 35 24 February 2009

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions Benefits: Winter Fuel Allowance Statute Law Database Economy: Arts and Culture Energy: Renewable Gas Health: Disease Control (Intergovernmental Organisations Committee Report) Motion to Take Note Freedom of Information Act 2000 Statement Energy: Renewables (Economic Affairs Committee Report) Motion to Take Note Human Rights: Religious Belief Question for Short Debate

Grand Committee Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Bill [HL] Committee (Seventh Day)

Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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© Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2009, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ 97 Benefits: Winter Fuel Allowance[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Benefits: Winter Fuel Allowance 98

through disability benefits, in particular the disability House of Lords living allowance. At the moment, somebody on the highest rate of care component and the higher rate of Tuesday, 24 February 2009. mobility component would receive a benefit of something in excess of £113 per week. We believe that that is the 2.30 pm right way. I should add that people who are disabled do not necessarily suffer the consequences of fluctuating Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Chichester. weather conditions. For example, someone who is profoundly deaf will not necessarily have an extra need for support with their heating, compared with Benefits: Winter Fuel Allowance others. Question Lord Tomlinson: My Lords, does my noble friend 2.35 pm agree with me that the Government have done their Asked By Baroness Wilcox share towards combating fuel poverty and it is about time that some of the utility companies accepted their To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they responsibility? Although energy prices have been falling, plan to alter the eligibility criteria for the winter that has not been reflected in consumer prices at fuel allowance for this winter. anything like the speed that the increases were when energy prices started rising. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, my noble Luton): My Lords, winter fuel payments are paid to friend is right that the energy companies need to do people aged 60 and over to help to mitigate the effects more, which is why the Government are engaged with of cold weather during the winter months. There are them, particularly on data sharing, so that their efforts no plans to alter the eligibility criteria for winter fuel can be targeted on the most vulnerable. My noble payments this winter. This year, the winter fuel payment friend is also right about energy prices. Domestic gas is £250 for households with someone aged between prices rose by 51 per cent in the year to September 60 and 79, and £400 for households with someone 2008 and domestic electricity prices rose by 31 per aged 80 and over. cent. While wholesale forward prices for gas and electricity have fallen by something like 40 per cent, that has not Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord yet fed through into cuts to retail consumers, although for that Answer but, given the National Audit Office’s some of the energy companies have at last announced scathing report on the failure of the Government’s some decreases. Warm Front programme to reach the poorest and most vulnerable of our people, I wonder whether he Baroness O’Cathain: My Lords, is the Minister might like to look at this again. When are the Government aware that the energy companies, particularly the gas really going to get it right on fuel poverty? and electricity suppliers to householders, are bombarding customers with various bits of literature? First, they Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, fuel poverty is have a self-read scheme, then they write and say that a significant issue for the Government. We are committed they do not have one and are going to do X, Y and Z to tackling it and have already put in place a number instead. The documents are all in small type with lots of measures to help those vulnerable to it. Since 2000, of words and they go straight into the rubbish basket. the Government have spent £20 billion on benefits and What is Ofgem doing about making the companies programmes to help those vulnerable to fuel poverty. more consumer friendly and making people who suffer In addition to this help, in September 2008 the from fuel poverty aware of what they can do and what Government announced an extra £1 billion package to they can get? I see that the noble Lord sitting beside tackle fuel poverty; the proposed new package includes the Minister is nodding in agreement. £910 million towards the national home energy saving programme. Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, the noble Baroness raises a relevant point, on which my noble Baroness Thomas of Winchester: My Lords, will the friend was whispering in my ear. We are continuing to Government consider extending the eligibility of this engage on the issue to make sure that the messages scheme to those in receipt of the higher rate mobility from the energy companies are clear and, importantly, component of the disability living allowance who are targeted on the most vulnerable in particular. under 60? I declare an interest in that I receive the DLA, although unfortunately I am not under 60. Lord O’Neill of Clackmannan: My Lords, does my There is a limit to the number of woolly jumpers that noble friend recognise that the fuel poverty lobby, of people can wear when the weather gets very cold and which I am happy to be an office bearer, both in they have very limited mobility. Scotland and in the rest of the UK, has been advocating a gold standard for the relief of the poorest consumers? Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, as I explained, At the moment, we are allowing a free market in we have no plans to extend eligibility. We believe that poverty subsidy rather than properly addressing the the right way to support people who are disabled is issue. The Government really have to grasp the legislative 99 Benefits: Winter Fuel Allowance[LORDS] Statute Law Database 100

[LORD O’NEILL OF CLACKMANNAN] law database websites. Those Acts likely to be affected nettle and create a gold standard for fuel poverty by the equality Bill are unlikely to be up-to-date when assistance for the poorest consumers. We cannot allow the Bill is introduced. However, consolidated versions the matter to be left to companies, which often fail to of the relevant legislation can be found on the Equality meet the undertakings that they have given to the and Human Rights Commission website free of charge. Government because there is a lack of definition in The Library also has access to commercial databases. what is required. The Government should show leadership on the issue. Lord Low of Dalston: My Lords, perhaps the Minister Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I believe that would take this as a request in relation to the equality we are showing leadership on the issue. We are continuing legislation and the statute law database. I thank him to engage with the energy companies. In the Pensions for his reply. In the light of the reported views of the Act last year, we legislated on data sharing, which is an Secretary of State for Business, can he confirm the important component of making sure that we can commitment given in the discrimination law review share data on the most vulnerable so that the energy that future equality legislation should involve no loss companies can play their part. As for what the of protection for groups covered by equality legislation Government are doing to play their part, in winter and should, indeed, enhance it where appropriate? 2007-08 we made more than 12 million payments to more than 8.5 million households. In total, something Lord Bach: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord. The like £2 billion was spent on winter fuel payments over way to get the statute law database up to date on this the winter. more quickly is for him and others to use the website so that priority is gained. I point out to the House the Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, the winter fuel allowance huge progress that has been made under successive is not the only way of combating fuel poverty. There Governments to enable online access to legislation, are also cold weather payments to certain recipients of which has been free to all users since December 2006. benefit. As these depend on weather stations and their On the noble Lord’s other point, on the proposed hinterland, is the Minister satisfied that the stations equality Bill, I can confirm what he said. are in the right places?

Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, the noble Lord Morris of Manchester: My Lords, can my Lord is quite right to say that cold weather payments noble friend say when the Bill will be published and are part of the support that is available. The Government whether there will be an easy-read version for the have increased the allowance from £8.50 to £25 over benefit of people with learning disabilities? the post-Christmas period. The Met Office advises that the network of 76 weather stations is sufficient to Lord Bach: My Lords, there will be an easy-read provide national coverage with a reasonable level of version of the legislation. I cannot give a date for local sensitivity. Three main factors are taken into when it will be published, but my understanding is account in recommending links between postcodes that it is likely to be in the spring. and weather stations: the proximity of the station to the main centres of population; whether the weather station is reasonably representative of the local climatic Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, does the conditions; and the speed and reliability with which Minister agree that it is in the best interests of employers, information about temperatures can be obtained. These trade unions, business enterprises and ordinary men are reviewed on a routine basis and any representations and women that we should replace the present opaque, made are taken into account. The noble Lord may be lumpish morass of anti-discrimination legislation with interested to know that, of the 76 stations, 61 have a single equality Act that is user-friendly? Does he also triggered cold weather payments during the current agree that we need to devise a scheme whereby employers season. There has been a total of 156 triggers, rising and trade unions are rewarded, if there is a proper job from just one per area to as many as six. evaluation scheme, with some transitional protection to enable equal pay to be brought about at last, all Statute Law Database these years after the 1970 Act? Question Lord Bach: My Lords, we agree absolutely with 2.44 pm what the noble Lord says about the need to change the Asked By Lord Low of Dalston morass that there has been in this field over a number of years. That is one of the main reasons for the Bill. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps On his second question, we are very much taking his they are taking to ensure that up-to-date versions expert views into consideration. of relevant legislation are available in the statute law database before the equality Bill is introduced. Lord Elton: My Lords, when a statute is on the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry database and up to date, and it is amended by order or of Justice (Lord Bach): My Lords, the statute law some other means, I gather that there is a considerable database is being updated in accordance with a priority time lapse before the amendment is made. Would it be list reflecting both specific requests and hits on legislation possible to flag the version on the database so that via the Office of Public Sector Information and statute people know that they have to look for other information? 101 Statute Law Database[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Economy: Arts and Culture 102

Lord Bach: Yes, indeed, my Lords. There can be a Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, we certainly all time lag. Making sure that legislation is on the database take pride in recent successes, including the Oscar-winning in the best possible way is still a huge enterprise that British film, “Slumdog Millionaire”. Investment in the we are involved in. A user can find out whether there cultural industries produces rich pay-offs for the economy. are outstanding effects to be applied via a warning We have seen significant investment in recent years, notice that appears—I have seen one myself this which shows itself in increased attendance at events morning—on the “results within legislation” page, throughout the United Kingdom, and in increased listing the years from which there are outstanding tourism, not necessarily in increased numbers of effects on that legislation. Users may then link through tourists—we all recognise the difficulties there—but in to the “tables of legislative effects” page, recording all expenditure, which was up last year. outstanding effects for each of the years from 2002 to the present. It is actually much easier to do that than Lord Roberts of Conwy: My Lords, have the the way in which I describe it. Government any estimate of the percentage contributed by arts and culture to our gross domestic product? Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, would it not be easier to keep the statute database up to date if we had Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, as the noble less legislation? Lord will readily appreciate, that is a difficult analysis but the percentage is certainly growing given our Lord Bach: My Lords, that is, by its nature, absolutely flourishing arts and culture in the United Kingdom true. and the great increase in attendance. Theatre attendance has increased not just in the London West End but Lord Patel: My Lords, does the Minister agree that right across the United Kingdom and the BBC is the the equality Bill, as it applies to employment, should biggest exporter of television services in the world. not discriminate against a person on a genetic basis? There is no doubt about the significance of this sector to the economy. Lord Bach: My Lords, I have to be careful that the noble Lord does not lead me down lanes of which I Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, we can all take know little. His views and the expert views of the pride in the successes of our creative industries, not noble Lord, Lord Lester, will be considered. The Bill least this week with the Oscars and London Fashion will be introduced soon. Week. However, before the Government get too self- congratulatory, perhaps the Minister can explain why the Home Office does not appear to share his and the Economy: Arts and Culture DCMS’s enthusiasm for the creative industries. He Question will no doubt be aware of the outcry over the new, heavier visa restrictions on non-EU artists visiting this 2.50 pm country for performances and exhibitions. Will he and the DCMS champion those artists and ensure that the Asked By Lord Harrison Home Office changes those regulations? To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to maximise the contribution that Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I never thought could be made by the arts and culture sector towards that the noble Lord would accuse me of being self- economic recovery. congratulatory on behalf of the Government but rather of purely producing accurate facts about government Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the arts and performance. He has highlighted an important issue culture sector has an important contribution to make with regard to immigration into this country and to towards economic recovery. The past 10 years have people entering the country. I do not underestimate seen sustained government investment in culture and that aspect but the Question is about the contribution our cultural institutions have succeeded in attracting to the economy as a whole. The noble Lord will new audiences, often to new publicly-funded facilities. recognise that the issue he raises is relatively marginal The Department for Culture, Media and Sport is in those terms. working closely with its sponsored bodies to help the cultural sector continue to function effectively and Lord Sheldon: My Lords, the arts and culture sector manage the risks which the present economic situation has had outstanding people who have contributed to presents. this important development. Is it not important that the financial help that has been given is continued and, Lord Harrison: My Lords, given the recent critical in certain circumstances, increased in order to retain success of the British film, TV and music industries the high standards that we have so far achieved and and the enduring contribution made by our theatres, which we must continue? museums and art galleries to the vital tourism and leisure industries, will my noble friend study the art Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, my noble friend aspects of the economic recovery programmes of President is absolutely right. He has been a supporter of this Obama and, indeed, of President Roosevelt? Will he strategy over the period in which the Government invest in the arts to create more jobs, increase consumer have invested heavily in culture and the arts—right spending and cheer us up a bit? from the very beginning of our determination to end 103 Economy: Arts and Culture[LORDS] Energy: Renewable Gas 104

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] also recognise that there will always be difficult cases, charges for access to British museums, which year on and he knows that there has been considerable sympathy year has meant an increase in attendance. I can respond for the case that he has put forward. positively to my noble friend and thank him for his contribution on these issues. Energy: Renewable Gas Question Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: My Lords, does the Minister accept that apart from economic 2.59 pm considerations the greatest contribution the Government can make is to enhance the morale of artists, performers, Asked By Lord Greaves administrators and audiences by accentuating the positive and by not being defensive? To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will respond to the paper The Potential for Renewable Gas in the UK, published by National Grid. Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord because he has also been a great supporter of the arts and culture as well as being a The Minister of State, Department of Energy and distinguished former Secretary of State. Of course Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food these are difficult economic times and it is right that and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): My the question of the extent to which the creative industries Lords, the Government welcome National Grid’s recent can contribute to the economy should be addressed. I report on renewable gas. Renewable gas is one of a accept his point that the arts and culture sector should number of low-carbon, renewable technologies that be valued in its own right as well as for the contribution could help us meet our renewable energy targets. We that it makes to the economy. will consider the report carefully in preparation for our forthcoming renewable energy strategy.

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall: My Lords, without Lord Greaves: My Lords, I thank the Minister for disagreeing in any sense with my noble friend’s point that reply. The report from National Grid estimates about the value of the arts for their own sake, is he that up to half of domestic gas consumption could be aware that one of the highest grossing movies of all met from renewable gas, which I understand is biomethane time, “Mamma Mia!” was directed by a British director, created by the anaerobic digestion or thermal Phyllida Lloyd and written by a British writer, Catherine gasification—I am not an expert on either of those—of Johnson, whose careers both started in the subsidised biodegradable waste. When the Government look at theatre in this country? The film grew out of a very this, will they make an assessment of the advantages successful British theatre musical. Does my noble friend and disadvantages of the use of domestic biodegradable accept that that small investment at the early stage in waste and food as a means of manufacturing gas, and the careers of artists and institutions can produce a compare it with other means of using biodegradable significant economic return in the long run? domestic waste and food in a useful way?

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the House Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, the short recognises my noble friend’s contribution to the arts. I answer is yes. The noble Lord makes a very fair point. thought last week that I would be citing “Mamma While we welcome the report from National Grid, it Mia!” in terms of the achievement of British films. I makes what can only be described as ambitious move to “Slumdog Millionaire” after eight Oscars. I assumptions, such as that 48 per cent of residential gas am grateful to my noble friend for referring to “Mamma demand could be met through the biomethane processes Mia!”, which is one of our more successful developments. that the noble Lord mentioned. While this does have potential, I doubt whether one could reach the figure Lord Roberts of Llandudno: My Lords, I declare an that the report suggests. interest as vice president of the Llangollen international music festival. I follow the question of my noble friend Lord Morris of Handsworth: My Lords, notwithstanding Lord Clement-Jones on our worry about new immigration the report, will the Minister assure the House that the rules and the effect on choirs of children from overseas method of metered gas supply to low-income families competing in the UK. How will those problems be will remain available? overcome so that children will still be able to come not only to Llangollen but to other festivals? Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, the noble Lord raises an important point. The department continues Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to to be in discussion with both Ofgem and the energy the noble Lord for raising that issue. I know how suppliers in relation to issues such as prepaid meters, concerned he was about the visit of a choir from the prices they charge and the issues raised in the first Uganda to this country. We all recognise the significance Oral Question today. I assure my noble friend that we of Llangollen in world music. We have to address will keep the matter very much in mind. these issues; there is no intention to restrict those who can contribute to the country’s enjoyment and welfare Lord Teverson: My Lords, the Government’s 2007 by the arrangements we make for visas and entry to UK biomass strategy stated strongly that the most the United Kingdom. However, the noble Lord will cost-effective energy use for biomass is through heat. 105 Energy: Renewable Gas[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Health: Disease Control 106

However, throughout the Committee stage of the Energy Relevant document: First report from the Intergovernmental Bill, now the Energy Act, the Government resisted the Organisations Committee. direct input of biogas into the national grid. Will they now reconsider that view? Lord Soley: My Lords, in moving the Motion I want to draw attention to this report, which I think Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, as the noble has been very well received not only in this country Lord will know, we are preparing a strategy and we but in other parts of the world. It is one of a number will certainly pick up that point. He might also have of reports dealing with contagious diseases over a mentioned the Government’s decision, as legislation number of years. What is different about this one is was going through, to introduce renewable heat incentives, that it deals essentially with the relationship between which we hope will be introduced by 2011. We hope this Government and the intergovernmental organisations that this will add impetus in this area. through which we work and which involve an enormous amount of British taxpayers’ money. A minimum of £450 million to £500 million goes into a number of Lord Greaves: My Lords, although I accept that the these organisations, so that is an important part of the target was ambitious and a much lower target would relationship. be valuable, do the Government not accept that the real problem with food and biodegradable waste from The report is also an indication of how, as some of domestic premises is that there is no adequate system the other reports on contagious diseases have recently of collection at the moment; that this is the main area suggested, the world has changed. The development where recycling collections should be improved; and of transport and trade means that we no longer have that this will require considerable investment and any frontiers that will stop diseases. Before there was encouragement by the Government? easy movement in trade and transport, diseases tended to stay within certain geographical areas. There were exceptions to that, of course, but diseases then were Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, local authorities largely much more constrained. The modern world too can play their part, and I hope that the landfill means that it is much easier for contagious diseases to mechanism will provide that incentive. The noble Lord spread, sometimes with quite catastrophic effects, and is right: although the waste that is collected by local we have seen a number of warning signs. authorities could be used in the way suggested by The committee analysed four major diseases—malaria, National Grid, it also has an important contribution TB, AIDS/HIV and influenza—not in detail, but to to make in terms of recyclables. He is right to talk see how the intergovernmental organisations and other about food as well. All those matters need to be organisations involved were either preventing those considered and that is why the ambitious goals that diseases or responding to them once they happened. National Grid has set would be very difficult to realise. Although we were not involved in making judgments However, that does not mean that there are not substantive about other diseases, many other diseases came up points in the report that we need to consider carefully, during our inquiries, some of the most worrying of including the regulatory regime and access to the grid, which were the emerging new diseases which we have which are very important. yet to be alerted to. As I say, we simply used those four major diseases to highlight some aspects of the relationship Arrangement of Business within intergovernmental organisations. Announcement I put on record my thanks to the clerk of the committee, Robert Preston, who has recently retired; indeed, he retired just after the report was completed, 3.04 pm although I hope to conclude that there was no causal Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, with the leave effect between the two actions. He served the House a of the House, my noble friend Lord Bach will repeat a long time and deserves our thanks for that. I also Statement made in the other place entitled “Freedom thank the other members of the staff and our excellent of Information Act 2000”. We will take the Statement adviser, Sandra Mounier-Jack, who gave excellent advice. immediately after the debate in the name of my noble I also thank, most notably, all Members from all sides friend Lord Soley. of the House who served on the committee. Our inquiry discovered that the United Kingdom has a very good reputation around the world not only Health: Disease Control for the amount of finance that it puts into dealing with (Intergovernmental Organisations contagious diseases but for the professionalism with Committee Report) which we act through the Department for International Motion to Take Note Development and the people whom we place in the various medical bodies and intergovernmental organisations around the world. We received truly 3.04 pm unsolicited praise. I think that every now and then we Moved By Lord Soley as a country have to give ourselves a pat on the back for how much we are doing, in work which is so well That this House takes note of the report of the recognised around the world. Many of the witnesses Intergovernmental Organisations Committee, Diseases told us, without any encouragement from me or other Know No Frontiers: How Effective are Intergovernmental members of the committee, that they very much welcomed Organisations in Controlling their Spread? a parliamentary committee from another country coming 107 Health: Disease Control[LORDS] Health: Disease Control 108

[LORD SOLEY] requests for a developing country to, in effect, duplicate and taking evidence from them. It had very rarely the accountancy and administrative methods, putting happened to any of them before and was a new a considerable burden on countries that were not well experience. Yet one of them said to me in a private equipped to do this. One of our recommendations conversation afterwards, “I don’t think people in Britain tries to deal with this matter. realise just how much money is spent in these organisations Recommendation 210 says: and they ought to take a little more interest”. One of the messages from this is that we need to take more “The aim should be to secure alignment of donor input to disease control programmes within the national health programme evidence from people in these positions around the of recipient countries”. world. They certainly welcomed it, and I think that we ought to do it a little more often. That is important because there is a problem in making sure that we do not deal with a disease without dealing Because of some of the recent alerts, such as SARS, with the needs of a health service structure within the and concerns about world health, there has in recent developing country. We need to be able to do both. I years been a dramatic increase in the funding of disease shall return to this in a moment in the context of prevention and control. Alongside that, however, there recommendation 192, that the Government should has also been an increase in the number of organisations aim for a better balance between vertical and dealing with diseases. Those organisations can be split horizontal systems of healthcare. The vertical system, into five broad groups: intergovernmental organisations, as the name implies, deals with one specific disease; national government organisations, public-private for example, you would try to treat malaria in this way. partnerships, non-governmental organisations, and private An argument for a horizontal system would be trying foundations such the Gates Foundation. It is worth to improve the health system of a country so that it noting that the Gates Foundation spends billions of can deal with malaria. However, if you try to put it as pounds; it spends more than the core budget of the a question of either/or, it will not work. It is a matter WHO. An enormous quantity of money is pouring of trying to get a better balance between the vertical into this area. and the horizontal. This is important. It must be This explosion of organisations obviously creates a recognised that if you put an enormous amount of problem: what was referred to as the “institutional money into one disease in one country, you may well labyrinth” of organisations. There were so many that a take some of the professionals in that country—who diagram was produced for us which would remind you will already be in short supply—out of the health of a close-up photograph of the maze at Windsor. It system and into that particular disease treatment was impossible to find your way through or to link all programme. That is not necessarily good for the health the organisations. The general view, and that of the system. Government, is that they are not well co-ordinated. On the other hand, one could argue—as some That is not a criticism; it is not meant to say that the people did in giving evidence—that if you remove the organisations are not doing their jobs properly. It is impact that a major disease has on a country, you hardly surprising. With an increase in funding of the might improve the health system simply because you type that we have seen, and the increase in the number have alleviated the pressure on it. It is quite a complex of organisations, it would be quite extraordinary if the argument, but the balance between the vertical and co-ordination was as good as it should be. Given the the horizontal is particularly important. We need both nature and seriousness of intercommunicable diseases, of them; we just need to get them in balance. it is important that we work hard on that. That was one of our recommendations and I will touch on it One of the other things to which our attention was again. drawn is the role of the World Bank. There was a One of the issues that we discussed was whether general feeling that the World Bank could have done reorganisation should take place from the top down. more and should do more in terms of the health In other words, should we try to impose a structure on infrastructure of a country. We tend to think of the this labyrinth? By and large, we felt that that would World Bank as dealing with infrastructure such as not work well, but other people felt that it might be the dams, roads, railways and so on, but in fact the health best way of doing it. However, we felt that an evolutionary, structure in a country is now becoming critically important rather than a revolutionary, approach was needed. We to the success or failure of that country and, as we were aware that several organisations were increasingly have indicated, to the way in which disease is spread working together and linking their practices much around the world. more effectively. Looking at the Government’s response to This is particularly important in the context of the recommendation 193 on the World Bank, I am still a current world economic crisis. It would be quite little unsure whether they wholly agree with it, partly extraordinary if, as a result of the world economic agree with it or are just being a bit diplomatic about crisis, countries generally did not try to squeeze some what they think about the World Bank. The Minister of the finances going into these areas. The efficient may be able to add to that in her response. We would working of these organisations, and the co-operation really like to see the World Bank taking a greater between them, becomes a vital matter. It is also an interest in the health infrastructure of countries and important issue for the recipient countries. We discovered investing in them accordingly. that each of the many organisations offering help to Recommendation 201 emphasised the importance the neediest countries had its own accounting structures, of the World Health Organisation, but the important administrative needs and so on. They were asking area—I know that the Government agree with this, as those countries to respond to them. There were many did most people who gave evidence—is the need to 109 Health: Disease Control[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Health: Disease Control 110 reform the internal structure, as it is no longer good in developing a strategy for dealing with disease outbreaks enough for the world that we live in and operate in. It and problems around the world. That clearly does not is particularly important to get it right at the regional mean either taking over or giving instructions to and country office levels. The general feeling is that organisations, be it the OIE or any other. the central organisation of the World Health Organisation Dr Vallat was also slightly worried about using the is quite good, but because the regions are selected new legal structure for international health regulations. differently and are not necessarily directly accountable Both the Government here and other organisations in the sense of having to have a system that responds and individuals felt this to be an important step forward. to the WHO at the international level, the structure International health regulations impose a legal duty does not often work as well as it should do on a on countries to report on diseases. As with other areas regional level. Therefore, there is a strong call for the of international life, this means the development of regional and country offices to be restructured and legal structures within what would previously have made to fit in with an international structure that been treaty agreements or arrangements between countries. works. One of the problems the committee had with the That was one of the things that the SARS outbreak OIE’s position was that its code was not enforceable. drew to the attention not just of the World Health That led us to the recommendation that maybe there Organisation but of many countries and regions, in ought to be a legally enforceable system for animal that what we were doing was not really working as well health. We acknowledge the difficulties with that. One as it needed to. I was pleased that the Government is that the veterinary services in many developing agreed with a number of the recommendations, countries do not have the ability to do it. Another particularly this one. They also share our view that the important one is that countries have an enormous new director-general of the WHO, Dr Chan, is not investment in animal trade for export and import. only doing a very good job but is very alert to this Therefore, they will not always be willing to sign up to problem. It is encouraging to hear the response of a legal requirement. So I understand the arguments on many of the witnesses, who also felt that she was the both sides. My own view and that of the committee right person for the job. was that if we could move towards a more legal Recommendation 194 stresses the importance of structure in the long term that would be beneficial, surveillance and response systems. This is where you although I am sure that the OIE would not necessarily get overtaken by the incredible acronyms of international agree, but that does not mean taking over from the organisations and where, if you are not careful, you OIE. It is a difficult area because so many diseases can go mad. The best way is to read through them and originate with animals therefore animal welfare is a try to remember what they stand for. Do not do that crucial factor in the spread of disease. We cannot do before you go to sleep because, contrary to popular anything other than pay close attention to this. opinion, it does not make you sleep; you just stay A number of good things are happening in this awake struggling with them. GOARN stands for the area. One of the best is the global early warning and Global Outbreak Alert and Response Network. For response system, or GLEWS, designed to pick up at some bizarre reason, it took me longer to remember the earliest stage animal health problems around the that one than most of the others, but it is important, world. It links the OIE with the WHO and the Food because it is a system that is designed for early alert and Agricultural Organisation of the UN—three of and response to the outbreak of disease. I do not the most important organisations in trying to spot know whether the Government are able to tell us any these diseases and deal with them. I want to say more more on this since their response, but my understanding about this but time and the other things I want to is that they intend to announce their strategy in July mention limit me to that. Zoonoses and developing on how to make the alert and response system work alert and response systems in developing countries for better. That is one of the key preventive arguments; it diseases that cross over from animals to human beings is very important. is an important area, one that should trouble us and I wish to refer here to zoonoses, which is another that we need to get right. There are no quick fixes or learning curve. It is a fact that the majority of human easy solutions. diseases have come from animals. The word for that is There was some disagreement between the evidence zoonoses. I am sure that most noble Lords know that, given by the WHO and that of the OIE. I am sure that but I did not know it at the time so it was educational there have been one or two interesting telephone for me. We had a good but also slightly frustrating conversations between the two organisations, which I session with the OIE, which is the World Organisation would have liked to listen in on, about who was saying for Animal Health in Paris. I say frustrating because it what to whom. I think that has largely been resolved, came at the end of our day there and therefore the but it indicates that between these very important and time got squeezed, which was a great pity. This very good organisations there are bound to be areas of organisation has a long and prestigious history going difficulty and disagreement. In the rapidly developing back far beyond the WHO. The director of that area of these diseases, it is important that we acknowledge organisation, Dr Vallat, wrote to me that he was that and move on. worried by our report, which, he felt, suggested that the WHO should, in effect, take over from the OIE the We dealt with the drug availability issue. I do not role of monitoring animal diseases. I have written have time to deal with it now, but I note that back to him but I want to put it on the record that we GlaxoSmithKline has just announced a plan to try to are definitely not saying that. Indeed, the foreword of reduce drug pricing. The Global Alliance for Vaccines the report says that we want the WHO to take the lead and Immunization—GAVI—has developed a 10 to 111 Health: Disease Control[LORDS] Health: Disease Control 112

[LORD SOLEY] nets, which kill the carrier mosquito before she reaches 20-year finance programme to provide vaccines and her victim. Unsanitary, crowded living conditions and immunisation over a long period, which guarantees a malnutrition create a breeding ground for tuberculosis, purchase volume and a purchase price for companies. the second of our four diseases. Therefore, prevention The UK was a major driver in that. is linked to improving poor socio-economic conditions. We looked at the dangers of bioterrorism in some Preventing the spread of HIV is largely dependent depth. I do not want to go into that in depth other on changing lifestyles, including, for example, sexual than to say that the early-warning systems for a disease relations and the use of contaminated needles. However, which is released deliberately and for one that occurs the balance between prevention and treatment has naturally are not different. We do not need to spend reached a Catch-22. The evidence suggests that effective too much time on separate systems; the response treatment through the use of antiretroviral drugs could should be the same. actually increase the prevalence of the disease unless it The International Health Partnership, which, I know, is accompanied by effective and sustained prevention the Minister in the House of Commons, Gillian Merron, measures. The will to change behaviour may be sees as very important, encouraged close co-operation undermined by a sense that, with the effective antiretroviral between the donor countries and the recipient countries. treatments available, the disease is no longer such a That is important, and we want to keep an eye on it. I threat and horror. Nick Partridge, chief executive of know that the Government place a high priority on the Terrence Higgins Trust, said that, that. The Government’s response to this has been very “good therapy … makes people healthier but it certainly does not positive, although we have some disagreement in one reduce, it increases, the prevalence of HIV overall … It also or two areas, including that of the OIE. I would like creates an ongoing need for funding drug therapy which can some clarification at some stage on the World Bank: squeeze out funding for good prevention campaigns. What is vitally important is that both go hand in hand”. are we saying very clearly that it ought to invest more in health infrastructure? In the case of pandemic influenza, prevention is largely dependent on surveillance so that the necessary The committee was set up as an ad hoc committee— steps can be taken to prevent the virus from spreading there is a long history to that, but I do not wish to rapidly. In order to achieve comprehensive surveillance, repeat it. The development of global systems is now so rather than in richer countries only, an effective global rapid, so important and uses so much money from alert and response system needs to be maintained to taxpayers that this House will miss the great opportunity help to identify emerging infections and deal with of playing a key role in looking at the way we spend them at source. We understand that the University of money and how these international organisations develop, California is carrying out research into patterns of particularly, as they move increasingly into the area of emerging infections with a view to developing risk-based legal requirements, as with the international health forecasts of what the next pandemic might be and regulations. If we do not find an alternative to the where it might appear. That research is still in its existing committee, which will now come to an end, we infancy. may regret losing such an opportunity, given the House’s specialist membership, with so much knowledge of The London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine both disease and intergovernmental organisations. believes that global disease surveillance has improved markedly in the past decade. Dr Coker, reader in public health there, told us that, 3.27 pm “the SARS crisis forced a re-think globally on global surveillance Baroness Eccles of Moulton: MyLords,itisa and was really, in a sense, a dry run for pandemic flu”. pleasure to speak in this debate on Diseases Know No The noble Lord, Lord Soley, drew our attention to Frontiers, which results from the work of the committee GOARN; I am sure that noble Lords will remember so ably chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Soley, who what those initials stand for. However, it is worth has pretty well done my job for me. The committee emphasising the need to invest in basic health could have chosen a great many topics for its first infrastructure to provide a firm foundation on which inquiry into intergovernmental organisations and how more specific disease control initiatives can be built. we are making use of our membership of them. However, That is in our national interest as well as in the interest examining how IGOs are tackling the global spread of of other countries. The committee recommended that, infectious diseases turned out to be a complex and “the resources which are provided through organisations of which worthwhile exercise. We took evidence from many the UK is a member”, dedicated and experienced witnesses, who enabled us should bring, to build up a picture of how things are at present and what most urgently needs to be done to contain future “infectious disease surveillance and response systems up to an threats. Following the old maxim that prevention is effective level”. better than cure, we believe that preventing the spread In their response, the Government stated that they are of disease is an important factor to be pursued. I currently preparing their international pandemic influenza should like to say a few words on prevention of each strategy, which details the direction and objectives of of the four diseases that we selected for special attention, the UK’s international efforts on pandemic preparedness but I shall concentrate a little more on HIV and over the next three to five years. pandemic influenza than on the other two. I end by endorsing the plea made by the noble With malaria, control is achieved through a Lord, Lord Soley, for consideration of the importance combination of practical measures, such as the spraying of the topics still in the pipeline that could relate to of dwellings and the provision of insecticide-impregnated our membership of IGOs. There will be many more 113 Health: Disease Control[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Health: Disease Control 114 that will be relevant. It is to be hoped that this committee health partnerships launched by this Government. We or one like it will be re-established so that the good saw a recognition that help with specific treatment work can continue. would not, on its own, solve the systemic problems of poor health infrastructure and lack of health education 3.34 pm which had allowed disease to flourish in the first place. The problems which poor societies have in diagnosis, Baroness Whitaker: My Lords, this new and, to my in data collection and in storage were well understood, mind, very important committee had a good start with and new kinds of organisation on the international the chairmanship of my noble friend Lord Soley and scene, which brought in all stakeholders, were achieving the services of our Clerk, Robert Preston, and his results. In particular, there was recognition in the team. They succeeded in confining a potentially vast Global Fund, the Global Alliance for Vaccines and subject into a manageable space and enabled us to Immunisation—GAVI—andothers that representation discover some alarming and relatively unknown areas from civil society was essential to achieving delivery of of concern. They are not unknown to all; my right service and preventive education in poor countries. honourable friend the Prime Minister identified dealing The arrival of a rights-based approach to health was with disease and global pandemics as an element in able to break down barriers. Innovative funding the national security strategy last March, one which mechanisms such as the International Finance Facility required a global response. My noble friend Lord for Immunisation and advance market commitments, Robertson of Port Ellen and the noble Lord, Lord which this Government have done so much to develop Ashdown, wrote in the Times last June: and establish, have saved thousands of lives among “The pandemic threat is not so serious just because of the those too poor to pay for medicine. possibility of a disease outbreak but because, in a world of people moving on this scale, a disease could be upon us long before we The word “poor”keeps cropping up in any discussion know it is even there … This is not a temporary state of affairs but of the control of infectious diseases. It is no accident a permanent one and an interdependent world is a world of that their toll is so infinitely less in rich countries. The shared destinies”. best way to stop the devastating mortality of AIDS, One of the most striking things that I learned was malaria and tuberculosis and the other life-threatening the high proportion—it is three-quarters—of new plagues is to eradicate the poverty, poor living conditions, infections which come from animals by jumping the malnutrition and lack of clean water which are the species. This is not new knowledge; it was only new to daily lot of those who die before their time in such me. Most of us know that most of our common, large numbers. These, the non-health determinants of communicable diseases began when the human race health, are now analysed by the WHO. They also need went in for agriculture and close proximity to farmed on-the-ground analysis by the local and national animals. Your Lordships might think, therefore, that governments concerned. This is where the redistribution those organisations which were set up to deal with of resources, which is intrinsic to democratic politics, animal health and those for human health would be saves lives. Inequality breeds disease and early death. aligned to share information and control measures Professor Sir Michael Marmot told us that if the most efficaciously. That is not what we found, as our WHO had health equity as a core value, it would be report shows in some detail, yet the danger is greater institutionally natural for the WHO to bring in the now that animals are moved so far and so often for non-health causes of ill health such as education, farming, hunting, food, laboratory and pet trades and poverty, trade, habitat and migration and to promote on an increasingly globalised scale. People penetrate measures that alleviated their adverse effects. The new into the depths of the forest and the jungle more than report of the WHO’s Commission on Social Determinants before, and use its products more exhaustively. of Health, which Professor Marmot chaired, bears As my noble friend Lord Soley said, there is no set eloquent witness to the relationship between social of international health regulations to deal with animal justice and health. However, in our output-driven infections, and we recommended that there should be. funding habits, it is hard to measure the impact of any I regret that the Government, in this case, did not non-health measure on any particular disease, unlike, agree with us. While there are, for instance, EU directives say, immunisation, so there is a disproportionate incentive on some of these zoonotic diseases and some general towards vertical programmes rather than improvements directives for agriculture and food safety, there is none of the whole system. We have made recommendations to oblige disease monitoring for nature and biodiversity. to improve the focus, as well as the accountability, of Some think that the UK does not match its DfID both international and national health organisations investment in research on avian flu with full enough through UK action. assessment of all future risks posed by wildlife in general. Then there is the whole area of which animal It is important, we thought, that the World Bank’s viruses, among the myriad which infect animals, will new strategy put health in the context of its overall make the jump and which will turn into lethal diseases. strategy for poverty alleviation. Perhaps the clearest This science, too, is in its infancy, not least because the lesson from our seminars was that in devising mechanisms places where these jumps happen most often are the to protect our own populations from deadly diseases poorest countries, in the tropics, with fewest scientific from distant places, we should remember that we will resources to identify them. do this best if we join in removing their fundamental basis: the soil of poverty in which they flourish. When we looked at the management of serious infections that had reached humans, we did see change Finally, as my noble friend Lord Soley said, the UK and progress. Rationalisation of the complex web of contributes sizeably to the intergovernmental organisations organisations was being addressed by the international that we have been considering and many others. This 115 Health: Disease Control[LORDS] Health: Disease Control 116

[BARONESS WHITAKER] DfID on the health issues in developing countries. But committee is the only formal parliamentary scrutiny many things are the same in both poor and rich of that expenditure, and your Lordships might think countries, one of which is health systems. If you are that the taxpayer has a right to see this work continue. looking for support for health systems, you are more likely to find that expertise in the people who are 3.41 pm running the health systems in, for example, this country. Another question is: how often does DfID make use Lord Crisp: My Lords, as the first speaker who has of the Health Protection Agency, which is probably not been a member of the committee, I congratulate it the best or the equal best of its kind in the world? on a very good report that dissected the issues, drew The parallel test question is: when the Department out the key points, and finished quite rightly on the of Health or the Health Protection Agency is dealing sobering note that a pandemic is likely at some point. with a problem originating outside this country, how I very much agree with the noble Lord, Lord Soley, often does it call on DfID for advice to make sure that that the UK’s reputation in this field is very good it has a real understanding of what is happening in indeed, and it is against that background that I make that country? This co-operation is getting better, but it some comments about how more could be done. The is still a weak point. While I know about the relationship first point that I was going to make was made by the around health, I suspect that the same thing must be noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker. I therefore merely true in other areas, such as education. echo her remarks, with which I agree completely, My second point concerns staffing. There is a huge about the non-health issues—the determinants of shortfall of health workers around the world, which is health—and the importance in that context of the the vulnerability that underpins all others. We globally World Bank playing a full role alongside the World are as vulnerable as the most vulnerable point, and the Health Organisation and others. most vulnerable point is likely to be in a poor country Two points arise from the report and are crucial to with poor health and social conditions, with very few the success in controlling the spread of communicable health workers and with people who may not be able diseases; they are, if you like, about our vulnerability. to recognise the problems as they arise. That is our big The first point is about the UK’s interdepartmental vulnerability. collaboration. The report calls for more collaboration, I know that the UK and others are part of the the Government acknowledge it, and the big policy innovative financing task force, which is co-chaired by statement, Health is Global, is as good as any such the Prime Minister and the president of the World broad policy document that I have ever seen on this. Bank. Again, I would ask the Minister for reassurances How good are the Government in practice at using that in looking at its work, attention will be given not the strengths of the departments to reinforce each only to innovative funding for staffing, which is part other? This is a universal issue. Three years ago, on of its terms of reference, but also to innovative approaches behalf of the previous Prime Minister, I called a to staffing. My point is simple: staffing is not just meeting of a number of countries to look at health about doctors and nurses. It is about all those public and development globally. I found that every country health professionals, public health local community sent two representatives—one from its equivalent of workers and mid-level workers—they are called a number DfID and one from its equivalent of the Department of names in different countries—who work in the of Health—apart from France, which sent three. It most difficult conditions and are therefore most likely also sent someone from its Foreign Office. The fact to see where the problems are. Therefore, the issue is that government is not totally joined up is not unique not just about making sure that the UK supports to the UK. innovative funding mechanisms in order to increase The important point is that the globalisation of the levels of staffing in health services around the health has implications. There is the potential for world but also about increasing the innovative structures. pandemics and a huge movement of staff. There is You do not want to have the same grades and types of trade, drugs are sold all over the world, and above all staff as we have in the UK in many of these countries. there is an enormous movement of people around the We will miss an opportunity if we raise money to world. We need to have a real understanding of the increase staffing, but do not use it to have the most linkages between first-world health and development impact on issues such as communicable diseases, which issues. The health service in the UK must act as a will tend to be at the most local level often with the global player and in a global context, and when DfID staff who have had the least training. deals with health it must do so with the best health Incidentally, in parenthesis, the UK has the most knowledge available. I still do not think that I see this tremendous tradition of health education, and throughout in practice. I know that there is good co-operation at the world it has played its part in the education of the policy level, but is it happening in practice? The doctors, nurses and others. It has, I believe, a great test question for the Minister is: when DfID is dealing opportunity, if the appropriate arrangements can be with the development of a health system in a country, made, to support training and education internationally. how often does it ask the Department of Health for That would be a very positive contribution to the help from its experts or ask for help from the best globalisation of health education and would help to health experts in this country, or does it simply use its support poor people globally. own parallel systems, processes and structures? In summary, this excellent report has laid out the I am not asking this question naively. I understand ground very well and has expressed our vulnerabilities. that there is a difference in health issues in different I believe that these two areas require more attention countries and I absolutely recognise the expertise in and more action. 117 Health: Disease Control[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Health: Disease Control 118

3.49 pm I turn now to one or two other problems. In the case of pandemic flu, we face a problem that is not unknown Lord Desai: My Lords, it is a great privilege to in international relations: countries are often unwilling thank my noble friend Lord Soley for having initiated to share evidence of the occurrence of an outbreak. and having led this inquiry in a most efficient and That happened famously in Indonesia. Countries are charming manner. We finally got to grips with what is very often afraid of the economic impact it will have really an enormously complex subject. Before I turn to on investment, business and tourism if they admit to a the topic of the report itself, let me reflect that today problem. Again, we have to find mechanisms of we are going through another global pandemic, a compensating countries which are honest and come financial one. If only there were as many institutions up with a warning that will benefit all of us. We have around the world talking to each other about disease to tell them that if there are problems and if costs are control as there are talking about financial problems, incurred, the World Bank or some other agency such the situation might not be as bad as this. I can put it no as the International Monetary Fund will compensate more strongly than that. As my noble friend said, them, but the importance for the world at large is that while in the report we concentrated on four major they share this information and share it as quickly as diseases, many others are no less important. We just possible. did not have the time to deal with them. In poor countries especially, these other diseases are just as Problems of sovereignty in terms of both the recipient important as the four we looked at. We were also as and donor countries often get in the way of efficiently much concerned with globalisation on the health front tackling the problems of disease. The matter may not as with the role played by intergovernmental organisations be the specific responsibility of a particular government in combating global diseases. department but one about which the global leadership should think carefully what to do. I want to make some points that have not yet been One of the lessons we would obviously like to learn made because the report has been welcomed by my from what we have done is the tremendous importance noble friend Lord Soley and others. We thought that not only of the need for more resources at the vertical we would encounter a jungle out there of overlapping structures but also, as my noble friend Lady Whitaker jurisdictions all interfering with each other in trying to said, of the horizontal parts of the health problem, deal with the problems of the four global diseases, but which is the general problem of tackling poverty. It is instead we found a much greater degree of clarity extremely important, at a time when we are all feeling among the people involved, especially those at the rather hard up in terms of the financial meltdown, WHO. They know what they are doing and have ways that the global leadership—the G8 especially, and the of co-ordinating with other players in the field, so that G20—does not resile from the task of keeping up while from the outside it may look messy, it is not as international aid so that the flow of international untidy as we thought it would be. resources which is most needed by the poorest countries On the nature of structures, there is a contrast continues. Yes, we are slightly worse off, maybe by between vertical and horizontal health issues. In my 10 per cent or 15 per cent, but even so we are still 20 to view, the vertical structures are not in a sense co-ordinated 30 times better off than those people who are really at enough because we have institutions like the WHO, to the front line of suffering from some of these diseases. which DfID contributes in a vital way, and many other It behoves us not to fall back but to keep our commitment similar organisations. Poor countries find themselves to helping tackle health problems in the poorest countries receiving visits from unco-ordinated groups from different as far as possible. nations, each bringing their own agenda and each wanting a return from the recipient country on the 3.57 pm buck they have given. We were told that in countries like Tanzania and Malawi, officials in the health ministries Baroness Barker: My Lords, it is a true delight to have to host as many as 340 delegations a year. I do take part in this debate. I thank the noble Lord, Lord not know when they find the time to do any proper Soley, the committee and the staff with whom he work. We ought to worry about whether there is a way worked for producing a really excellent and interesting of co-ordinating this stuff so that fewer delegations report. I thank him for the informative and engaging visit individual countries, and those that do, do not way in which he introduced a very complex report just push their own little angle. Rather they should ask examining quite deep seated issues. It is a very timely about outcomes on the ground as a result of donations analysis of a really complex set of organisations with and worry less about whether a particular country’s overlapping roles, multiple areas of expertise and dollars have resulted in a particular cure. The question fragmented funding streams. That is a recipe for disaster should be: has a cure been achieved? Given the fragility if ever there was one. of staffing levels both in terms of organisation and When I read the report, it was not apparent to me health needs in poor countries, devising some sort of why a committee of your Lordships’ House should co-ordinating mechanism would make a tremendous have produced it. I am very glad that it did, because it contribution. This requires on the part of taxpayers in brought to the subject a detachment which made its the rich countries a bit of trust that, although we do findings all the more pertinent. From looking on the not quite know where the DfID dollar has actually web, I know that the reaction around the world has gone, we can take it that their dollar has been properly been very appreciative, and I congratulate the committee utilised and that outcomes will show how that has been on that. the case. The global structure needs to become slightly The report is timely for two reasons. To echo a more co-ordinated and less nationalistic and protectionist point made by the noble Lord, Lord Desai, in the over individual donations and the return on them. current financial economic situation, it is clear that 119 Health: Disease Control[LORDS] Health: Disease Control 120

[BARONESS BARKER] Lord, Lord Desai, said it did. It tended to overlook there will be an ever growing need to demonstrate the what are called the neglected tropical diseases. I understand efficacy and efficiency of international aid programmes. why the committee did that. Those diseases are less I also think that we have a golden hour in which to likely to have an impact in Britain, and that was the engage with the new US Administration in a spirit of remit of the committee. partnership which was perhaps not possible with the None the less, those neglected tropical diseases previous Administration. The US Administration and afflict an estimated 1.1 billion of the 2.7 billion people their policies are one of the biggest factors in the who live on less than two US dollars a day. The burden international health scene. In addition, we have the of such diseases on those people is perhaps greater forthcoming G8 summit. For reasons that I shall make than on others. In neglecting to follow those, we did clear later on, we have at the end of 2009 the important perhaps miss something. I suggest to the noble Lord, UN conference on climate change. Lord Soley, that, as part of his campaign—which I Recent events since the report was produced have wholeheartedly support—to have a standing committee demonstrated how important it is. In December 2008, of the nature of his, its next report could look at those cholera infected 80,000 people in Zimbabwe. As far as neglected tropical diseases and the work of international we know, approximately 4,000 of them died. Of that government organisations on them. outbreak, the WHO said: Having given a slight brickbat, I want to give a “Given the outbreak’s dynamic, in the context of a dilapidated water and sanitation infrastructure and a weak health system, the bouquet. The report and its recommendations about practical implementation of control measures remains a challenge”. TRIPS helped to build up some of the pressure which resulted last week in that announcement from That was a very diplomatic way of describing a desperately GlaxoSmithKline. I am the Liberal Democrat health sad and avoidable situation. It brought home to me spokesperson. I happen not to make a habit of the need to implement fully these international health congratulating drug companies, but this time we should. regulations and to extend them to any disease, wherever It was an extraordinary statement, and I add to what it comes from, so that there is a global public health the noble Lord, Lord Soley, said. GSK said that it surveillance system, with state parties having an obligation would cut prices for all drugs in the 50 least developed to prevent or control the spread of disease, but in countries to no more than 25 per cent of UK and US which civil society can report the true incidence of levels, and less if possible. It will put any chemicals or disease if a Government fail to do so. That is a processes over which it has intellectual property rights tremendously important point. that are relevant to finding drugs for neglected diseases I read this report in conjunction with the report into a patent pool so that they can be explored by from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. other researchers. It will reinvest 20 per cent of any It announced in 2007 that projected climate change profits it makes in the least developed countries into related exposures are likely to affect the health of hospitals, clinics and staff. It will invite scientists from millions of people. Climate change will affect infectious other companies, NGOs or Governments to join the diseases in two ways. There will be an increased risk of hunt for tropical disease treatments at its dedicated water- and food-borne disease, and there will be changes institute in Spain. in vector-borne diseases. The IPCC predicted an increase in diarrhoeal disease in any place where water or food Campaigners from charity organisations have becomes contaminated—for example, after flooding—and understandably expressed regret that that does not where warmer weather leads to food poisoning due to include the HIV medicines. Nevertheless, they realise problems with food storage. It is not possible to that it is a tremendous step forward. It will alter overestimate the extent to which climate change will dramatically the whole architecture of that complex have an impact on health. relationship of intergovernmental organisations, NGOs and private companies. I hope that there will be a Only last month in the British Medical Journal, compensating change on the part of other private Anthony McMichael of the Australian National companies, and on the part of Governments as they University estimated that climate change could lead to seek to move forward to the next stage—just as they an additional 20 million to 70 million people living in did when the Gates Foundation came along to make malarial regions in sub-Saharan Africa. He drew the its contribution. clear lesson that: “Poverty cannot be eliminated while environmental degradation The issue of vertical and horizontal health programmes exacerbates malnutrition, disease and injury … Infectious diseases is one of the most interesting parts of the whole cannot be stabilised in circumstances of climatic instability, refugee report. I listened carefully to what the noble Lord, flows and impoverishment”. Lord Soley, said about not being able to have either a Further, he said: horizontal or vertical approach; that will not work, and it is a question of finding a balance. I wondered “This requires bold and far sighted policy decisions at national and international levels”, whether the Government, working with countries with which they have particularly close relationships and and greater carbon emission cuts than those proposed the NGOs and IGOs working in them, might find two a decade ago. To everything the noble Lord, Lord countries in which it was possible to come up with Soley, said, you have to add this extra dimension of models reflecting a different type of balance between the health impact of climate change. them. The sticking point seems to be that national I have one slight criticism of the report. In concentrating Governments do not know quite how to come up with on the big three infectious diseases—HIV/AIDS, TB a model that is effective for them. There are no models and malaria—the report did what in a way the noble to which they can go. 121 Health: Disease Control[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Health: Disease Control 122

One of the most striking pieces of testimony in the needed to eliminate an outbreak. The question that report was that of Professor Borriello about zoonomic springs to mind is—I have already indicated this to the diseases. The interesting thing he talked about was noble Baroness—has the Department of Health such that the UK’s panel for newly emerging infections quantities of anti-virals available? includes medical and veterinary staff, and people involved The report contains criticisms of the WHO, as in food science. Given that 75 per cent of emerging mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Soley. Many of us diseases are zoonomic, I ask the Government whether have had experience of this organisation and have we can work on that model in conjunction with a found some aspects of it rather unsatisfactory. No low-income country to see whether the model could be doubt this tends to colour our judgment. It is right adapted to its situation, whereby it could come up therefore to stress, as did the noble Lord, Lord Soley, with a structure enabling those with knowledge in that the present director-general, Dr Margaret Chan, veterinary science, food science and health to work has brought a very welcome breath of fresh air to together. It is not a matter of us exporting our models Geneva, and that things have changed very much for intact, because they will not necessarily be applicable, the better in the past few years. but we can take the points of models that work and enable people to adopt them. That is an important The report records complaints about excessive point. bureaucracy in the WHO headquarters but the director- general’s programme of reform of the management I end by echoing some of the points of the noble structure has been much admired. Others have criticised Lord, Lord Crisp. We have in this country a wealth of what they describe as the disconnect between the experience that we would do well to export. I would go headquarters in Geneva and the regional offices, especially further than the noble Lord and include Defra as well the regional office in Africa (AFRO). Uniquely within as some of the other departments. We should look the United Nations system, the six regional directors upon this not solely as an act of generosity on our are elected and naturally tend to feel responsible to the part. I well remember, during the outbreak of foot and countries that elected them, as well as to the WHO. In mouth, a colleague in the Commons, Ed Davey of practice this federal system has worked well during the Kingston, had tremendous trouble getting a refugee past year or so in spite of past difficulties. The director- who was a qualified vet from Iran—a nation where general meets the regional directors at least three foot and mouth is endemic and every vet knows exactly times a year; two are whole-day meetings and the third what it is—fast-tracked into being able to work with is a retreat for several days. those dealing with the emergency here. We have a lot to receive as well as to give from such partnerships. Concerns have been expressed that the regional The four nations of the United Kingdom work governance of the WHO could get in the way of a jointly but in slightly different ways via the Health co-ordinated and effective approach to disease outbreaks. Protection Agency and others. The noble Lord, Lord The revised international health regulations that were Desai, is right: during the next few years of austerity adopted by all WHO member states in 2005 make it and hardship it will be extremely difficult politically to clear that authority lies with the director-general. When maintain our level of international development aid. a serious outbreak of a disease occurs, the director-general It will require courage on the part of the Government herself does the risk assessment, has the final say and to do that and the provision of a great deal of advises on any action to be taken. information—this report is a welcome addition to There have also been recent developments in building that—to dispel some of the myths about our expenditure greater coherence among the main organisations working on international aid, to enable people to see that it in global health. The heads of four United Nations constitutes investment in the health of the world, and oganisations, UNICEF,UNFEA, UNAIDS and WHO, that we are part of that world just like anybody else. If and the four financing organisations, the World Bank, one major task needs to be carried out above all else, it the Gates foundation, the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, is to improve co-ordination and governance, to which Tuberculosis and Malaria, and the GAVI Alliance, the committee referred. This report is an excellent now meet every six months to align their work more basis on which to start. I very much look forward to closely. The last meeting was just three weeks ago. It is hearing the noble Baroness’s reply to the points noble worth pointing out that the Global Fund to Fight Lords have made. AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria has the largest health budget in the world. It is an international financing institution investing the world’s money to save lives. 4.11 pm To date it has committed $14.9 billion in 140 countries Lord McColl of Dulwich: My Lords, I add my to support large-scale prevention and care programmes thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Soley, for introducing against these three diseases. Two million have been the report so comprehensively and charmingly. There treated for HIV/AIDS, 4.6 million for tuberculosis is a lot of worry about how a flu pandemic should be and 70 million bed nets have been distributed. handled. Professor Neil Ferguson of Imperial College As the noble Lord, Lord Soley, mentioned, the has described a very useful computer model to test a Gates foundation contributes more than the whole of number of strategies to limit the spread of the disease. the WHO budget. There was a feeling that the WHO As there is no vaccine, they suggest anti-viral prophylaxis was becoming rather uneasy about that. But, again the in order to reduce the risk of infection among director-general has made it clear that she does not approximately 20,000 people in the vicinity of the regard that as a problem. There was some controversy initial cluster of flu victims. He estimated that a stockpile over the WHO announcements about leprosy some of 3 million doses of anti-viral treatments could be years ago but that was based on a misunderstanding 123 Health: Disease Control[LORDS] Health: Disease Control 124

[LORD MCCOLL OF DULWICH] time and expertise in developing countries, and we over technical terms. The WHO had earlier stated that need to give them more encouragement and make it its goal was to reduce the prevalence of leprosy to less easier for them to have leave of absence from their than 1 in 10,000. Its policy of recommending that the work here. Working on Mercy ships in west African duration of treatment should be reduced from two countries for most of my holidays, I have been so years to one year thereby halved the prevalence which impressed with healthcare workers who volunteer for gave the impression that the WHO was claiming that it periods of anything between two years and 22 years. had solved the problem. The Conservatives will abandon what we believe The subject of prevention, especially HIV/AIDS, is are Labour’s plans to cut staff numbers at DfID, and dealt with in paragraphs 47 to 49, which emphasise we will rapidly increase its budget. British aid will be that prevention means changing behaviour. As my properly scrutinised for effectiveness, and results will noble friend Lady Eccles stated, changing behaviour is be linked directly to independently audited evidence of much more difficult than treatment. What is so disturbing real progress in these poor countries. We also plan to is that the AIDS epidemic involves more and more establish an anti-corruption hotline on the front page women worldwide, with 17.7 million women being of the DfID website. All DfID programmes will have a HIV positive, which is more than ever before. In designated anti-fraud officer who could be approached, sub-Saharan Africa they constitute two-thirds of anonymously if necessary, by anyone who suspects people living with HIV/AIDS. In South Africa young corruption. Their e-mail address and phone number women are four times as likely to be HIV infected than would be published on the relevant pages of the DfID young men. website, both in English and local languages. We will As president of the Mildmay centre, I was involved also consider giving some aid money directly to poor in the establishment of the first hospice in Europe for people as aid vouchers, redeemable for development those dying of HIV/AIDS and later the first in Africa, services of any kind from an aid agency or supplier of just outside Kampala, with enormous help from the choice. noble Baroness, Lady Chalker, who guided us into The noble Lord, Lord Soley, mentioned that animal concentrating on outpatient work and teaching. In the welfare is very important in the food chain, and spoke Mildmay centre in Uganda it was not unusual to see about outbreaks of infection. That reminds me of the 100 children in a day all with AIDS, all orphans, a widespread distribution of the virulent campylobacter third of them with tuberculosis and many with malaria organism, which affects 70 per cent of chickens in the and the most terrible shingles and lice that I have ever United Kingdom. The chickens are killed by being seen because their immune systems were so depleted. stretched by the neck and feet, upside down, on a However, I was very impressed with the HIV/AIDS conveyor belt. They are then electrocuted, which makes prevention programme set up by the President Museveni the muscles contract, emptying the contents of their of Uganda which reduced the incidence from 31 per alimentary tract. As they are upside down, the cent to 5 per cent among pregnant women. Those are campylobacter is sprayed all over them. They are then hard, reliable data. The ABC programme—abstinence put in a big vat, where they become campylobacter or postponement, be faithful and condoms—has also soup. When the chickens are chopped up and put into been successful in other African countries. The WHO polythene bags, they are infected with campylobacter. advocates a policy that is comprehensive and inclusive, This is all right provided the chickens are adequately and embraces the ABC policy, which is also supported cooked. However, if they are chopped up on a board by our Government. The Leader of your Lordships’ that is then used to prepare a salad, you can understand House stated that the Government subscribe to the how the infection takes hold. successful campaigns of ABC, but not one to the This report has inevitably focused on developing exclusion of others—it is important to stress that. It is countries and we are often critical of the widespread of interest that many teenagers are choosing abstinence infections there. However, we in the United Kingdom or postponement as a safer policy. Tragically, teenage are not always paragons of virtue. girls in many countries have no power to refuse, and face physical abuse and even death if they do not comply.In approaching the difficult subject of prevention, 4.24 pm we need to be open to many different approaches, Baroness Thornton: My Lords, it is with great humility especially as there are such diverse cultures worldwide. that I answer this debate. As I read the committee’s About 40 per cent of the world’s population is at report and evidence over the past week, I realised what risk of malaria. More than 500 million people become a very important contribution its work has made on severely ill with malaria every year, and 1 million this vital issue. I am not surprised that this was the people die. Twenty per cent of all childhood deaths in first subject that the committee tackled. I congratulate Africa are from malaria. The Conservatives are committed my noble friend Lord Soley on a truly excellent and to spending half a billion pounds a year tackling comprehensive report and on securing this debate malaria, until the millennium development goal has today. I agree with the remarks of the noble Baroness, been met. We will work with African countries to Lady Barker, about the welcome that the report has abolish tariffs on anti-mosquito bed nets in sub-Saharan received across the world. Africa. We will establish a fund, worth £5 million a My noble friend has offered me the opportunity year to begin with, to help fund international placements not only to place on the record the Government’s for British health workers and support links between thanks for the committee’s work but to update the the NHS and health systems in poorer countries. House on developments since its report. I am pleased There are many who already give generously of their to say that progress has been made even since its 125 Health: Disease Control[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Health: Disease Control 126 publication in July. As noble Lords will know, the Health” approach. A number of UN system agencies Government published Health is Global, the UK’s and the World Bank have launched a strategic framework, global health strategy, in September 2008. This strategy, Contributing to One World, One Health. This applies along with the 2007 DfID health strategy, sets the the lessons learnt from avian influenza to emerging framework for our work on global health between infectious diseases at the animal, human and ecosystems now and 2013. Health is Global highlights the links interface. The UK has played an active role in developing between domestic health and health beyond our shores, this framework and will participate in discussions to as well as the role of a variety of players, including be held next month in Winnipeg, hosted by the Canadian intergovernmental organisations, in improving both. Government. These discussions will decide which diseases It includes commitments to work for better health should be addressed and how the strategy should be security, including tackling infectious disease, and more implemented. The challenge will be to apply the benefits effective international organisations that can help get gained in our experience of avian and pandemic influenza the job done. planning to a broader range of infectious diseases, while not losing the focus on pandemic planning. Since the launch of Health is Global we have seen the start of the most serious global economic crisis in The role and co-ordination of the work of the decades—referred to by several noble Lords, including intergovernmental organisations is key to all this, as my noble friend Lord Desai. Finding innovative and the report points out many times. Our view remains sustainable solutions to global health challenges remains that there is evidence of strong liaison between the as pressing a concern as ever. Indeed, I echo my noble various international bodies in disease surveillance at friend Lord Desai’s remark that this is an economic the animal-human interface. However, global pandemic. After last year’s food and fuel crises, we co-ordination in pandemic preparedness planning more now face a huge challenge to maintain the fight against generally could be improved. The UK’s international global poverty. Impacts on health will vary greatly by strategy on pandemic influenza commits us to bringing country and context, but past downturns show common together the key international organisations working patterns. The impact on the poor will be especially on pandemic flu preparedness in order to promote serious: nutritional standards are likely to fall, as will improved co-ordination and synergy. I hope this will the ability to spend on private healthcare. Given their confirm to my noble friends Lord Soley and Lady importance in channelling resources, intergovernmental Whitaker that the Government take this very seriously organisations will be crucial to our response. indeed. We will host this meeting in June. I also agree with my noble friend about the need for In June the Government published a new AIDS coordination and for our Government and other strategy, which underlines the UK’s commitment to Governments to maintain support levels in this field. continued global leadership on AIDS, and to the goal It is self-evident that many health risks today require of universal access to comprehensive HIV prevention, international collective action. Let us consider, for treatment, care and support by 2010. Achieving universal example, the threat of a worldwide influenza pandemic, access is a global commitment. Responsibility for mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Eccles, and making progress towards it lies with national other noble Lords. Governments, supported by effective partnerships of In October 2008 the Government launched a new bilateral and multilateral agencies, as well as civil international pandemic influenza preparedness strategy, society and the private sector. International agencies which aims to reduce the risk of a global pandemic have played a key role in recent successes on AIDS, as through co-ordinated action at national and international already mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord McColl, level, action designed to enhance our collective ability but it bears repetition. For example, the Global Fund to prevent, detect and respond to a pandemic. At the to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria has played a heart of this strategy are issues that the committee’s key role in a 20-fold increase in funding, from $485 million report highlighted. We recognise the need to improve in 1997 to $10 billion in 2007, and has helped AIDS infectious disease surveillance and response systems in treatment increase from 100,000 people in 2001 to developing nations. This is why, in addition to our 3 million in 2008. There have been challenges too, but share of the substantial contributions made by the the AIDS response has helped to sharpen focus on European Commission, the UK has already committed approaches that can help. The noble Baroness, Lady more than £35 million towards the international effort Eccles, and the noble Lord, Lord McColl, quite rightly to tackle avian and pandemic influenza. Much of this also drew our attention to the need for changes in funding is channelled through international organisations people’s behaviour and the impact of HIV and AIDS and is being used for a wide variety of activities, on women and children. including strengthening national public health surveillance systems, enhancing outbreak containment and virus The UK Government played a key role in the eradication in animals, improving non-medical responses launch of the multi-stakeholder global malaria action to pandemic flu, and strengthening health system plan in September. I do not apologise for using all capacity. We are also playing a leading role in developing these terms and acronyms because this report, as the WHO global pandemic influenza action plan, everybody has mentioned, is absolutely full of such which will increase the availability of vaccines for a terms. The UK contribution, which was announced by pandemic, including for developing countries. the Prime Minister, includes 20 million bed nets by 2010; increased funding for research and development It is also vital to encourage engagement and research of up to £5 million by 2010; and £40 million over two across veterinary and human health sectors globally, years for the affordable medicines facility to increase in support of what is known as a “One World, One access to the latest and best malarial drugs. This 127 Health: Disease Control[LORDS] Health: Disease Control 128

[BARONESS THORNTON] to providing incentives to UN organisations to work ambitious programme needs active and co-ordinated together and to setting these organisations stretching participation by intergovernmental organisations if it targets that deliver results and value for money. is to succeed. I will give three examples of how we are putting this The committee rightly recommended that we continue commitment into practice. First, the International to promote integrated strategies for combating TB Health Partnership was launched by the Prime Minister and HIV. This Government are committed to tackling in September 2007. It seeks to build stronger health HIV and TB co-infection and recognise the need to systems by applying the Paris principles on aid effectiveness upscale efforts to deliver universal access to TB and to the health sector. The International Health Partnership HIV prevention, treatment, care and support services will play a vital role in bringing agencies together. by 2015, as well as to increase investment and facilitate From the developing country perspective, it is the research to promote the development of better tools organising framework to ensure the most effective and for prevention, diagnosis and treatment of TB. DfID’s sustainable allocation of resources, both domestic and AIDS strategy supports the integration of HIV and external. AIDS and DfID has made a significant commitment Secondly, there is the UK WHO institutional strategy. to spend £6 billion over seven years to 2015 to strengthen We have now finalised our institutional strategy on the health systems and services. This includes the integration WHO; it sets out how we will work with the organisation of HIV and TB services. between now and 2013. The document is on the All this must be set in the context of progress Department of Health website. This joint strategy, against the health-related millennium development goals. which was agreed between the WHO and three In July 2007 the United Nations Secretary-General government departments—the Department of Health, and the Prime Minister launched the MDG “Call to DfID and the FCO—takes on board many of the Action”, encouraging the international community to recommendations in the report. accelerate progress to reach the millennium development For example, the strategy commits us to streamlining goals. The subsequent United Nations high-level event some of the funding that we allocate for the WHO in in September 2008 saw countries, charities, foundations line with performance against agreed priorities. It sets and businesses pledge $16 billion to help reach the specific indicators and targets for delivery to improve goals. I am very happy to hear from the noble Lord, the monitoring of the agency’s performance. As part Lord McColl, of his party’s support for all this activity. of this process, DfID is making additional funds I add one small partisan point: I welcome the turnabout available on a performance-related basis to the WHO of the Conservative Party in its policy on international at 10.3 per cent of baseline funding this year and aid, but it is slightly rich to suggest that this Government, 18.7 per cent next year. The UK gave $358 million to with their record, will be reducing their commitment the WHO in 2006-07, which makes us the organisation’s in any way. second largest donor. The institutional strategy is key We are keen to track the implementation of the to holding the organisation to account for that funding actions announced at the high-level event and to maintain and improving its performance. the momentum and focus that the event produced to The third example is our support for the WHO’s get the MDGs on track. We also want to support the work on partnerships. A number of global health resolution already proposed by the UN Secretary-General partnerships are hosted by the WHO, and it is involved and the President of the General Assembly on the in many others. This year’s World Health Assembly MDG review summit in 2010. The high-level event will consider a report on the WHO’s approach to also saw the launch of the Taskforce on Innovative these, including the criteria to help the organisation to International Financing for Health Systems, co-chaired decide whether to get involved in new partnerships by the Prime Minister and the president of the World and, if so, what the organisation’s involvement should Bank. The task force will explore new sources of be. We are pleased that the WHO is looking at this finance to help developing countries achieve the health complex area, and we will work closely with it to get MDGs. this right. International organisations are at the heart of the I shall now address some of the specific questions response to the challenges of protecting UK health raised by noble Lords. My noble friend Lord Soley and of meeting the MDGs. But, as the report made talked about vertical versus horizontal health system clear, the very complexity and fragmentation of the strengthening programmes. I thought that he explained international health architecture makes it hard for it with great eloquence. It was new to me when I read Governments, especially those in the developing world, the report, and I found it very interesting indeed. We to use these resources as effectively as possible; this is agree with my noble friend that both vertical and the labyrinth referred to by my noble friend. The horizontal support are essential; it is not a question of Government are committed to help to deliver a more either/or. The World Bank has an important role to rational, effective and efficient health architecture, play in both, and we agree with the committee that better at protecting the health of England and helping the bank needs to invest in health infrastructure in developing countries to achieve the MDGs. collaboration with other players in the health field. In the global health strategy we commit to working That is our approach to the World Bank on this issue. with the WHO and other UN agencies to consolidate My noble friends Lord Soley and Lady Whitaker existing funding flows to the UN so that we have fewer and the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, raised the issue and more effective agreements, to supporting consolidated of surveillance for human disease and what the OIE UN country programmes in developing countries, does in it regard. I have already said that we think the 129 Health: Disease Control[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Freedom of Information Act 2000 130 system works quite well, although we continue to push by manufacturers amounting to 5 million treatment generally for improved surveillance in countries and courses which can be used to contain the pandemic for co-ordination internationally. wherever it started, so it can be got to wherever it is My noble friends Lady Whitaker and Lord Desai needed. I think the noble Lord won the prize for the both mentioned the work of the Commission on Social yuck factor in this debate with his very eloquent and Determinants of Health led by Sir Michael Marmot. informed description of the treatment of chickens. The UK is very active in this area. Late last year it As we might have anticipated, a debate led by my hosted a global conference opened by the Prime Minister noble friend, with contributions from distinguished in order to take this work forward. I am pleased to say colleagues around the House, is one of the highest that we sponsored a resolution at the recent executive quality. It has taken forward the thinking on this vital board meeting of WHO member states and we are issue, and I hope that my noble friend recognises from determined to see progress in this area. this response how seriously the Government take the The noble Lord, Lord Crisp, raised two main issues issue and how grateful we are for the committee’s which I am pleased to be able to respond to. I thank work. I thank all noble Lords for their excellent him for his comments on using UK expertise to support contributions today. health systems in developing countries. His own report in this area has been very influential. The implementation 4.44 pm of this report’s recommendations, now being taken Lord Soley: My Lords, I thank everyone who has forward by DfID and the Department of Health, is a taken part for their constructive and very supportive great example of cross-government work. The noble comments. I thank the Minister for clarifying the Lord will have direct experience of the need for this. Government’s position on the World Bank and investment On our global health strategy, which he mentioned, we in health infrastructure and for indicating the importance have a commitment for the Health Protection Agency which the Government attach to moving forward on to also develop its international role along the lines he the animal health/human health issue, which is so suggested. We agree with his point on innovative staffing. important. I thank the noble Lord, Lord McColl, for The key is to get the most appropriate workforce building on the comments of the noble Baroness, where it is needed. Lady Eccles, about prevention. He gave some figures My noble friend Lord Desai called for more concerning Africa of which I was not aware. I found co-ordination. His remarks echo those of most noble them very useful. Like my noble friend on the Front Lords: this is a great challenge. He also mentioned the Bench, I was struck by his comments on the treatment issue of the sovereignty of resources getting in the way of chickens when they are slaughtered. For a while I of preparedness. The WHO is currently taking forward thought he would do for chickens what Edwina Currie, an intergovernmental process to improve the system when MP and a Minister, did for eggs with her comment for sharing influenza viruses with more equitable access on salmonella. Fortunately, he navigated those narrows to benefits such as vaccines. The UK strongly calls for quite well and he has given people like me a culinary all countries to share their influenza viruses, so to lesson, which I shall bear in mind: I should be more speak, to enable risk assessment and to transfer this to careful when using a chopping board for chicken and the manufacturers of vaccines for viruses. vegetables. I agree with the analysis made by the noble Baroness, The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, mentioned other Lady Barker, of the links between climate change and diseases. The issue is how we look at intergovernmental health issues. She is absolutely right. She asked what organisations. She is absolutely right about the need to we were doing to support developing countries integrating look at other diseases, but we had to take an example the animal and human surveillance systems. So far we to fit into the key question for a committee of this type have pledged £35 million to help developing countries about how we use intergovernmental organisations. I do this, £20 million from DfID over three years channelled am beginning to think that if we continue with such a through multilateral agencies, such as the WHO. I committee in the future we may need to find a title have a list here of about seven other acronyms, but you which suggests the UK’s expenditure on intergovernmental get the gist. We will reprioritise DfID’s country aid organisations. That is the key. If you end up looking programme if we are requested to do so. We aim to too much at the disease as opposed to the determine how best to contribute to improving an intergovernmental organisation itself, you will do what animal and human surveillance system for the HPAI many other committees could do either in the House in vulnerable areas of the world. We want to continue of Commons or here, and I am anxious to avoid that. working with partners on virus-sharing and better The noble Baroness’s comments are well made. I beg distribution of benefits, and to consider further funding to move. once the strategic framework has been agreed in Canada at the conference I referred to. Motion agreed. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McColl, for his specific question about the quantities of antiviral Freedom of Information Act 2000 available to eliminate an outbreak of flu pandemic. Statement The UK will have enough antiviral available to treat 50 per cent of its population by the end of next 4.47 pm month. A 50 per cent attack rate is, noble Lords will appreciate, the worst-case scenario for the next pandemic The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry based on previous pandemics this century. The World of Justice (Lord Bach): My Lords, with the leave of the Health Organisation has an antiviral stockpile donated House, I will now repeat a Statement made in another 131 Freedom of Information Act 2000[LORDS] Freedom of Information Act 2000 132

[LORD BACH] The applicant duly exercised his right to ask the place by my right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor Information Commissioner to investigate the handling and Secretary of State for Justice. The Statement is as of his request. In February 2008, the commissioner follows: reasoned, for the first time, that Cabinet minutes—these “With permission, Mr Speaker, I should like to ones—should be released. The Cabinet Office appealed make a Statement on the use of the ministerial veto the commissioner’s decision to the Information Tribunal. under Section 53 of the Freedom of Information Act On 27 January 2009, the tribunal published its decision. in respect of minutes of two Cabinet meetings in The tribunal was unanimous in deciding that the March 2003 relating to Iraq. informal notes of the Cabinet meetings should be withheld, but by a majority of two to one, it decided I need first to set out some background. The FoI that the public interest balance fell in favour of release Act has profoundly changed the relationship between of the minutes. It therefore upheld the decision of the citizens, and their elected representatives and the media commissioner ordering information to be disclosed, on the one hand, and the Government and public subject to some minor redactions. authorities on the other. It has, as intended, made the Following that decision, and having taken the view Executive far more open and accountable. The Act of Cabinet, I have today issued a certificate under provides a regime for freedom of information which is Section 53 of the Act in an appropriate form and one of the most open and rigorous in the world. It was consistent with the Act, the effect of which is that the subject of almost three years’ intensive debate, by these Cabinet minutes will not now be disclosed. The which the original scheme was much improved and conclusion I have reached rests on the assessment of strengthened. As initially proposed, decisions of the the public interest in disclosure and non-disclosure. I Information Commissioner would in law have been have laid a copy of that certificate and a detailed heavily persuasive, but not binding on Ministers. This statement of the reasons for my decision in the Libraries reflected the regimes in other countries, such as in of both Houses. My decision was made in accordance Canada. In the event, that scheme was replaced by a with the Government’s policy criteria, which are annexed much tougher one. to my statement of reasons. Copies of all these documents There was, however, a key balancing measure written have been sent to the requester and are available in the into the Act, and accepted by Parliament. This was to Vote Office. provide in Section 53, that in specific circumstances To permit the commissioner’s and tribunal’s view of Ministers—and certain others—could override a decision the public interest to prevail would, in my judgment, of the commissioner or tribunal requiring the release risk serious damage to Cabinet government, an essential of information if they believed on reasonable grounds principle of British parliamentary democracy. That that the decision to withhold the information was in eventuality is not in the public interest. Cabinet is the accordance with the requirements of the Act. At the pinnacle of the decision-making machinery of time of the passage of the Bill, Ministers in both government. It is the forum in which debates on the Houses provided reassurance about the use of this issues of greatest significance and complexity are veto. It would not be commonplace. Undertakings conducted. Whether the nation was to take military were also given that, although Section 53 required a action was indisputably of the utmost seriousness. certificate by a single Cabinet Minister or law officer, However, I disagree with the reasoning of the majority any use of the veto would be subject to prior Cabinet of the tribunal. In its decision, it refers to the momentous consideration. nature of the decision taken, the public interest in The Act came into force on 1 January 2005. From understanding the approach taken to that decision then until September 2008, in approximately 78,000 and in the accountability of those who took the decision. cases where the requested information was held by It then says: government departments, it has been released in full. ‘In the view of the majority the questions and concerns that Before the Act, some of it would not have been released remain about the quite exceptional circumstances of the two for 30 years. Since 2006, the Information Commissioner relevant meetings create a very strong case in favour of the formal has dealt with more than 1,500 cases involving government records being disclosed’. departments, and the Information Tribunal has dealt But in my judgment, that analysis is not correct. with more than 50 such cases, but no Section 53 veto The convention of Cabinet confidentiality and the has been used to date. public interest in its maintenance are especially crucial when the issues at hand are of the greatest importance In December 2006, the Cabinet Office received a and sensitivity. Indeed, the minority view of the tribunal freedom of information request for Cabinet minutes that the minutes should be withheld was formulated and records relating to meetings it held between 7 and on this basis. It stated: 17 March 2003 where the Attorney General’s legal advice concerning military action against Iraq was ‘The minority view seeks to reach the decision most likely to support continued confidence that Cabinets can explore difficult considered and discussed. There were two meetings of issues in full and in private’. Cabinet within that period; on 13 and 17 March. The Cabinet Office refused the request, citing the Act’s It continued, exemptions for information relating to policy development ‘publication would, in the minority view, be more likely than not and ministerial communications. In keeping with its to drive substantive collective discussion or airing of disagreement statutory obligations, the Cabinet Office had considered into informal channels and away from the record. This would over time damage the ability of historians and any inquiries, if the public interest in releasing the information, but constituted, to reconstruct and understand the process Cabinet found twice, on balance, that there was greater public followed in any particular instance. And it would not be conducive interest in withholding it. to good government’. 133 Freedom of Information Act 2000[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Freedom of Information Act 2000 134

Responsibility for Cabinet decisions is with the the object of much scrutiny. I have not taken it lightly: Government as a whole, not with individual Ministers: it is a necessary decision to protect the public interest that remains the first principle of the ministerial code. in effective Cabinet government. The conventions of Cabinet confidentiality and collective Shortly after he became Prime Minister, my right responsibility do not exist as a convenience to Ministers. honourable friend established a high-level inquiry into They are crucial to the accountability of the Executive the 30-year rule, under the chairmanship of Mr Paul to Parliament and the people. The concomitant of Dacre of the Daily Mail. That report, published last collective responsibility is that debate is conducted month, proposed a reduction from 30 to 15 years. I confidentially.Confidentiality serves to promote thorough have already told the House that the Government decision-making. Disclosure of the Cabinet minutes favour a substantial reduction in the 30-year rule. In in this case jeopardises that space for thought and that context, the report also recommended we consider debate at precisely the point where it has its greatest protection under the Act for certain categories of utility. In short, the damage that disclosure of minutes information. There is a balance to be struck between in this instance would do far outweighs any corresponding openness and maintaining aspects of our system of public interest in their disclosure. democratic government. This tension is recognised in What the minutes principally record are the the fundamental framework of the FoI Act, and that deliberations of Cabinet in reaching its decisions. The Act, and much else that we have done, stand testament actual decision, which was made at the later Cabinet to the far greater openness and accountability secured on 17 March, was made public straightaway. I, as under this Government. I commend my Statement to Foreign Secretary, conveyed it to the House in an oral the House”. Statement, accurately and immediately, within three My Lords, that concludes the Statement. hours of it being made. In that statement, Mr Speaker, I recounted the recent history leading up to that decision, and I brought to the House’s attention the 5pm information which had that day been made available Lord Kingsland: My Lords, first, I thank the right to the House in order to inform the following day of honourable gentleman the Secretary of State for Justice debate. for making his Statement available before this afternoon’s Despite the powers under the royal prerogative, we debate. put the use of force to a substantive vote. In opening There are a number of political reasons why the that debate, our then Prime Minister, Tony Blair, spelt right honourable gentleman should be embarrassed at out in considerable detail the reasons for the Cabinet’s having to make this Statement today. In particular, if decision. The debate ranged across the history of he was going to exercise his veto, why did he wait to do non-compliance of Saddam’s regime, the negotiating so until after the appeal process was completed? It history of the two UN resolutions in the run-up to makes his action appear to be a flagrant breach of due military action, our discussions with allies, and much process. Why did he not make it clear at the outset that else besides. I ended that debate by fully setting out the he found the request for the minutes constitutionally factors the Government and Parliament had considered unacceptable, or have the Government made up their and should bear in mind in voting on the substantive mind on such a crucial constitutional issue only today? Motion before them. Did they remain in doubt about this matter until the The Government subsequently released the Attorney- very last minute? General’s legal advice. Furthermore, on 25 May 2006 Moreover, in the right honourable gentleman’s a full disclosure statement was published by the then Statement, he makes much of protecting the public Attorney-General, which set out in considerable detail interest in Cabinet secrecy. Yetthe Government exhibited the considerations taken into account as the Attorney no compunction about releasing Conservative Cabinet reached his opinion on the legality of military action. documents on the ERM when it suited them. A number of inquiries have been conducted. There Constitutionally, however, the Government are right was the Hutton inquiry into the death of David Kelly, to issue the veto. In its decision, the tribunal states that and the Butler Review of Intelligence on Weapons of it is, Mass Destruction. Both those inquiries published detailed “the exceptional circumstances of the two relevant meetings that reports on aspects of the decision to take military create a very strong case in favour of the formal records being action, and we have acted on their recommendations. disclosed”. There has yet been more scrutiny of the decision by With great respect, the opposite is the case; the more Parliament itself. The Intelligence and Security Committee crucial a matter is to the national interest, and the published its report, Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction, more potentially divisive the strongly held views on and Select Committees have investigated the matter on either side of the argument, the more important it is to a number of occasions. retain the principle of the secrecy of Cabinet deliberations. In summary, the decision to take military action If this were not so, it would be virtually impossible has been examined with a fine-tooth comb; we have to maintain the constitutional convention of collective been held to account for it in this House and elsewhere. Cabinet responsibility for its decisions. Collective Cabinet We have done much to meet the public interest in responsibility is, as your Lordships well know, crucial openness and accountability, but the duty to advance to our system of government in Parliament. Without that interest further cannot supplant the public interest it, day-to-day executive decision-making would simply in maintaining the integrity of our system of Government. break down. In a constitutional system in which there This decision to exercise the veto has been subject to is no separation of powers between legislature and much thought, and it will doubtless—and rightly so—be executive, this consequence would be inevitable. 135 Freedom of Information Act 2000[LORDS] Freedom of Information Act 2000 136

[LORD KINGSLAND] difficulties. Paragraph 52 is of particular importance I add this; the more momentous a decision, the in debating the convention and the damage that can more important it is for members of the Cabinet to result from publication of the decisions that are being engage in exchanges of the utmost candour. The made in the Cabinet. It is not a decision that the knowledge that their deliberations would quickly be tribunal took lightly.Paragraph 55 addresses the question made public could prove to be profoundly inhibiting raised by the Cabinet on whether a pattern would to freedom of expression in that context. Alternatively, develop if this information was released. There seems decision-making could be driven even further from the to be no justification for thinking that a pattern would Cabinet table and rapidly towards more informal avenues develop. Does this fear justify the straight veto by the of communication, such as those exposed so alarmingly Secretary of State? After all, he could have taken this by the noble Lord, Lord Butler, in his admirable to a High Court appeal, but he might have lost the report. argument. With respect, those who are seeking to make public Paragraph 60 of the tribunal’s discussion makes a the contents of these minutes are aiming at the wrong clear case for the fact that it is not as much about who target; for they are likely to reveal very little, especially said what to whom, as about what was not discussed. as the texts of the two advices of the noble and Paragraph 60 refers to the Ministerial Code being learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, are now in the public broken. The issue was whether enough was said by realm. It is much more important that we focus on the anyone to anyone else, which brings the entire concept observations made by the noble Lord, Lord Butler, of Cabinet government into question. about the realities of Cabinet government today. His Paragraph 72 addresses the passage of time. What report states, for example, that, have the Government to fear by this now? They have “wider collective discussion and consideration by the Cabinet to resisted the public inquiry for which we have continued the frequent but unscripted occasions when the Prime Minister, to call. They have said that that would affect the Foreign Secretary and Defence Secretary briefed the Cabinet morale of troops or strategic decisions, but that was a orally”; couple of years ago. Time has passed since then. It and again: was also not lost on the other place that in this case the “Excellent quality papers were written by officials, but these Government are both judge and jury. The Secretary of were not discussed in Cabinet or in Cabinet Committee”; State now, as the Ministry of Justice Minister, was and again: then the Foreign Secretary, which places him in an “The absence of papers on the Cabinet agenda so that Ministers invidious position to make the veto. could obtain briefings in advance from the Cabinet Office, their The Statement refers to the use of the Freedom of own departments or from the intelligence agencies plainly reduced their ability to prepare properly for such discussions”. Information Act in other countries. Are the Government aware that Australia is about to expunge the veto I emphasise that what I have said does not mean because it believes that it so compromises the Freedom that the decision to go to war should not be intimately of Information Act as to make it meaningless? The scrutinised. Indeed, there is now an unanswerable case Statement does not recognise, we believe, that this case for an inquiry. When are the Government going to is truly exceptional. The decision to go to war was announce it? highly controversial. Some 1.5 million people bothered to march about the issue. We do not think that this 5.05 pm would pave the way for every Cabinet decision being Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, I called into question. This was an exceptional case. thank the Minister for repeating the Statement and for Finally, this is not a new issue. On 15 December giving it to us in advance. Liberal Democrats do not 1932, Lloyd George asked for the minutes of discussions believe that the Secretary of State’s decision in this on the American debt question to be put into the case is right. We do not believe that it is in the public public domain. The discussion about balance has carried interest or that it has been made for the right reasons. on for decade after decade. The Government made a The Statement recognises the very fine balance to be good first move in introducing the Freedom of struck between openness and the public interest, but it Information Act, but they have now fatally compromised goes on fatally to undermine that balance by wilfully it by using the veto in such an inappropriate way. ignoring the very mechanism that has been set up to maintain it. 5.10 pm It is not a trivial mechanism. First, there is a very Lord Bach: My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for considered, highly reasoned opinion by the Information their contributions, and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Commissioner, which allows for a reduction. Incidentally, Kingsland, and the members of his party for their the Statement ignores the judgments of the Information support for the decision taken. It is absolutely consistent Commissioner and the tribunal even more strongly, with everything they said during the passage of the which suggested that reductions were definitely needed. Freedom of Information Bill as it then was. The noble The Statement also ignores the fact that the record of Lord made a number of telling points, and he will not what was said at Cabinet contains only what was said be surprised to hear that I agree completely with his and not by whom it was said. It remains anonymous. analysis of the importance in difficult and serious Following the Information Commissioner’s decision, cases of absolutely maintaining the principle of collective the Cabinet Office appealed and the appeal went to responsibility. Once that is allowed to go, our system the tribunal, which was right in this case because it of government would have to be altered irrevocably. was a very serious decision. The tribunal’s reasoned He is right to make the point, which is precisely what opinion is exemplary in exploring the balance and lies behind the decision of my right honourable friend. 137 Freedom of Information Act 2000[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Freedom of Information Act 2000 138

Having praised the noble Lord, I should just gently Secondly, I should like to ask the Minister a question chide him for saying that somehow or other the decision arising directly from the Statement. He mentioned the should have been taken well before this stage. There is 30-year rule review committee, to which I gave evidence. a distinct procedure—some would call it due process— Does the Statement mean that the Government have which means that any complainant who chooses to do accepted the proposal to reduce the limit of publication so under the Act can first go to the commissioner and, on Cabinet proceedings from 30 years to 15? That is after the decision of the commissioner has been made, certainly the implication of the Statement, at any rate. it can be properly appealed to the tribunal. All this is set out precisely in the legislation. I would argue that Lord Bach: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble the appropriate moment for the Cabinet to consider Lord for reminding me that I had not replied regarding the position is once the tribunal has reached its view. It the inquiry. The inquiry is a slightly different issue has of course done that here following an undertaking from the one raised today, but I am not exactly surprised we gave when the Bill was passed, and the relevant to hear it mentioned. The best thing that I can do is Cabinet Minister has made the decision. remind the House of what the Prime Minister said in The argument used by the noble Lord about the December: this is a matter to consider once our troops importance of keeping the confidentiality of Cabinet have come home. My own view is that that is a very minutes sacrosanct in this particular case is the answer strong argument. It would be the wrong time to hold to the argument put by the noble Baroness. Is she an inquiry while our troops are still risking their lives really saying that the risk that would be run to collective in Iraq. Once they come home, the matter should be Cabinet responsibility if we were to say that these considered. minutes should be published is a risk worth taking? I We welcome the review on the 30-year rule. We hope that the majority view in this House would be agree in principle that there should be a substantial strongly against such a point of view. reduction of the 30-year rule, phased in over time. The The noble Baroness also mentioned the High Court. change would result in earlier public access to large We could take the case to the High Court, but only on numbers of official documents and would give the a matter of law. This was not a matter of law. The public a more detailed understanding of how reasoning was set out both by the majority and the Governments have handled more recent events. The minority of the tribunal, and for that reason we feel caveat is that we need to look at the recommendations that it would have been inappropriate to take the in detail and consider the practical implications carefully matter to the High Court; it is not a proper matter before providing a detailed response by the summer. for law. As the Bill went through its stages in both Houses Lord Ryder of Wensum: My Lords, I, too, support before it became an Act, this issue was discussed at the Government’s decision. Can the Minister please great length. Indeed, there are noble Lords in the give us a clear undertaking that none of the withheld Chamber today who will remember the discussions information from the two meetings is already in the around it. This provision was put into the legislation public domain as a result of memoirs or diaries published after much debate for a purpose, which was that it was by former Ministers or political officials? Further, can felt that it might be necessary to use it in various he please give us a clear undertaking that the necessary circumstances. It was also made absolutely clear that legal action will be taken against any former Minister this course would not be taken easily or frequently. who refers to these two meetings in memoirs or diaries The statement of Her Majesty’s Government’s policy to be published in the near future? that is attached to the document of my right honourable friend that is in the Library says: Lord Bach: My Lords, I think that I can say that the “The exercise of the veto would involve two analytical steps. It memoirs that have appeared so far do not breach the must first be considered whether the public interest in withholding concern that we have and the reason that we have information outweighs the public interest in disclosure. Only if issued this veto. There are strong rules about memoirs, this test is satisfied can it then be considered whether the instant which the noble Lord will know from his distinguished case warrants exercise of the veto. The Government will not time in government. Ministers are constantly reminded routinely agree the use of the executive override simply because it considers the public interest in withholding the information outweighs that they have to keep to those rules. the public interest in disclosure”. The case has to be exceptional. We feel that this case is Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank: My Lords, on page 3 exceptional and that we have taken the right decision. of the Statement there are references to the role of the Cabinet Office. It says: “The Cabinet Office refused the request”, 5.15 pm then, Lord Fowler: My Lords, there is a need for the “the Cabinet Office had considered”, maximum information about the reasons for the Iraq and: war. I think that the Minister has forgotten my noble “The Cabinet Office appealed”. friend’s question about an inquiry into Iraq. Are there The Cabinet Office is an institution. Who made the any circumstances in which this Government will set decision? The Cabinet Office has no collective voice. It up a general inquiry into the Iraq war in this Parliament is responsible, if anything, to the Prime Minister of or are they going back on the commitment, which was the day. If the Cabinet Office is responsible to a pretty inadequate in any event, which they previously Minister, or collectively to the Cabinet, has its identity gave? independence? 139 Freedom of Information Act 2000[LORDS] Freedom of Information Act 2000 140

Lord Bach: My Lords, as I understand the procedure, we have learnt something by this exercise. It seems to the complainant would make his application to the me that the Conservative and the government Front relevant government department, which in this case Benches—the Liberal Democrats take a different view— was considered to be the Cabinet Office. It refused the are saying that, as a matter of principle, collective application. It was then asked to reconsider it. As I responsibility would be undermined by such revelations understand it, independent people within the Cabinet and we should simply take a decision to amend the Office are then, under the Act, obliged to look at the Freedom of Information Act accordingly. case again to see whether the first officials were right Some reflection should be given to what the noble or wrong in refusing it. That process took place here Lord, Lord Ryder, said about revelations made by before the claimant went, as he was entitled to, to the Ministers and officials. It is no good dealing with a commissioner. The Cabinet Office, as I understand it, self-denying ordinance or codes of conduct over this: is a department of state in the Government. It has they are simply put on one side. There should be an Ministers who are members of that department. absolutely clear ruling that those who have had the privilege of being involved in such discussions in Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank: My Lords, my question Cabinet, and those who have heard such discussions was which individual made the decision. The Cabinet taking place, do not reveal what has been said. That Office is not an institution. Some person or group of absolutely undermines that collective responsibility people must have made those decisions. I was not which both sides of the House have paid so much arguing about the outcome; I was asking how it happened. attention to. Lord Bach: My Lords, I am quite sure that various officials considered the complaint and that a collective Lord Bach: My Lords, there is a great deal in what decision was then made by the Cabinet Office to refuse my noble friend says. the request. As far as individuals are concerned, I am afraid I cannot help the noble Lord. Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, following the question of my noble friend Lord Rodgers, do I Lord Soley: My Lords, I voted in favour of the understand that the decisions of the Cabinet Office Freedom of Information Act as an MP, but I knew at are made as a matter of process by civil servants and the time that it would be an absolute gift to opposition not by a Minister? Is no single person accountable? Is political parties and opposition groups of one type or it then left until late in the day, as has happened today, another. That is why I fear for its survival in this form for a Minister—the Lord Chancellor—to step in and if there were to be a Conservative Government in put a block on decisions to which he was party? There future. It is a good Act, but does my noble friend agree should be some ministerial accountability, and decisions that the danger has always been that if you go too far should be taken at ministerial level both on freedom of with it you drive decision-making underground. If you information requests and the publication of memoirs, do that, you end up hollowing out the institutions to which the noble Baroness referred a moment ago. where these decisions are supposed to take place. One of the areas of the Act that needs review is whether we Lord Bach: My Lords, not every request is decided should make the law much clearer that private by a Minister. conversations should be encouraged in some areas rather than pushed outside such institutions as the Cabinet. Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords— I make a final point. Even if the appeal had been run, all it would have done is led to an argument Lord Bach: I did not hear that, my Lords. between lawyers about whether the Attorney-General got it right or wrong. That is actually not the key issue A noble Lord: What did he say? about Iraq.

Lord Bach: My Lords, I agree very much with what Lord Bach: My Lords, I do not know. my noble friend says. Indeed, it follows what the noble Not every request is considered by a Minister, but a Lord, Lord Kingsland, was arguing a few minutes request of this seriousness, of course— ago: once what happens in Cabinet becomes public knowledge, decisions will eventually be made elsewhere Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords— in private and will not be so accountable.

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, Lord Bach: My Lords, as I understand it, there is given what my noble friend has just said and what the ministerial responsibility for dealing with some requests. Statement makes very clear about the principle of Other requests are dealt with by officials. A huge Cabinet confidentiality and collective responsibility, number of requests are made, many of which are of there seems to be—perhaps my noble friend could course granted readily and easily. I talked about the reflect on this—a degree of agreement between the 78,000 figure a few minutes ago. noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, and my right honourable friend in another place that actually a decision should Lord Mayhew of Twysden: My Lords, is it not a be taken not to reveal Cabinet minutes at all. I very great pity, not that the Government have come to this much regret the fact that Conservative Party minutes decision—which I believe to be correct—but that they were revealed. That was a wrong decision. I hope that have taken so long to avail themselves of this procedure 141 Freedom of Information Act 2000[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Energy: Renewables 142 of issuing a certificate under Section 53 of the Act? all sides of the House regarding this matter and the After all, if one looks at the grounds on page 1 of the possible need to reform the Act. I hope that he will statement of reasons, it says, forgive me if I do not commit the Government to any “disclosure of this information would be … contrary to the public such course this afternoon but I promise to take back interest, and … damaging to the doctrine of collective responsibility”. to the department the strong feelings of noble Lords With each of those reasons I of course agree. who are very experienced in this field. However, turning the page, I see under the heading “Analysis” the words: Energy: Renewables (Economic Affairs “First, I am satisfied that at the time of the request in December 2006, the balance of the public interest in this case fell Committee Report) in favour of non-disclosure”. Motion to Take Note Will the Minister come back to the question with which my noble friend Lord Kingsland opened his 5.31 pm speech? Why has it taken so long? In answer to another Moved By Lord Vallance of Tummel question, the Minister has this afternoon implied that due process required that the matter should be appealed That this House takes note of the Report of the by the Cabinet Office to the information tribunal. Economic Affairs Committee on The Economics of Unless I am completely mistaken, due process in Section Renewable Energy. 53 lays down that there should be a statement to the commissioner within 20 working days of a decision Relevant document: 4th report from the Economic Affairs notice, setting out the opinion of the Secretary of Committee. State that there are reasonable grounds for issuing a certificate. Can the Minister think about those points and assist us further? Lord Vallance of Tummel: My Lords, I am very pleased to introduce the debate. I should emphasise at the outset that our report was entitled The Economics Lord Bach: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble of Renewable Energy. We stuck to our last. We did not and learned Lord. The point is that freedom of enter the debate about climate change or how to information applications are made under a scheme. respond to it, a subject that had already been covered The Government would have been even more heavily in an earlier report. We took as a given the Government’s criticised than they have been today if they had stepped wish to reduce carbon emissions. in at an earlier stage and vetoed this claim before due By the time we began our inquiry the European process had been gone through. Union was committed to a binding target that 20 per What happened was what ought to have happened. cent of its energy consumption should be from renewable The claimant makes his claim. It is refused. The claimant sources by 2020. To meet this target the European then goes to where he is entitled to go: to the commissioner. Commission proposed that 15 per cent of Britain’s Then, after the commissioner rules, the Cabinet Office energy should come from renewables by that date. The is entitled to appeal, which it does. When that decision Government seemed ready to accept this proposal, is reached is the proper moment for the Government which represented a huge increase from the 1.8 per to consider whether they will use exceptionally—this cent of energy that comes from renewables today. will be an exceptional not a commonplace use—their We should bear in mind that about two-fifths of the right to veto under Section 53. That is precisely what UK’s energy use is in transport, two-fifths in heat and they have done. The noble and learned Lord makes a only one-fifth in electricity. But the Government expect good point; namely, that it is surprising that it has not much of the increase in renewable energy needed to been used up until now. However, that reflects the fact meet their target to come from the smallest sector, that that the Government will not use this power for the of power generation. So in order to produce 15 per cent sake of using it and will consider it very carefully. The of our energy from renewable sources by 2020, we Cabinet will be consulted before that step is taken. will need by then to produce around 34 per cent of our electricity from renewables, compared to about Lord Butler of Brockwell: My Lords, like other 6 per cent today. noble Lords I support the Government’s decision in Our report does not set out to contest these targets; this case. Further to the points made by the noble it aims instead to examine their economic implications. Lord, Lord Soley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, How much would it cost to achieve them and how does the Minister agree with me that until firm lines would the effort affect security of energy supply given are drawn in this matter—if necessary, by amending that the economic costs of inadequate supply could be the Freedom of Information Act—those taking part formidable? Would focusing on European Union targets in important discussions in government will always divert resources from other, perhaps more promising, feel inhibited about being candid because they will be means of reducing carbon emissions in energy production? uncertain whether what they say will be revealed under These are the main issues our report addresses. the Freedom of Information Act? Therefore, it is The committee began to hear evidence in its inquiry necessary to draw clear lines in this matter. in the spring of 2008. Since then the economic background has changed radically. Then global economic growth Lord Bach: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble was strong and the price of oil was rising through $140 Lord, who has huge practical experience in this field. I a barrel. Now there is recession and the price of oil is hear the very strong arguments that have been put on scarcely $40 a barrel. The price of carbon, as evidenced 143 Energy: Renewables[LORDS] Energy: Renewables 144

[LORD VALLANCE OF TUMMEL] replacement. All this represents a huge financial and by the EU’s Emissions Trading Scheme, has collapsed engineering challenge for the industry. It is by no and finance for infrastructure projects is very much means clear that it is achievable in the time available, harder to come by.These changes reaffirm the committee’s particularly under current economic conditions. There concerns. Those centre on the affordability and is no need to spell out the potentially grave economic practicability of the EU target for a near tenfold and other consequences if we fall short and end up increase in 10 years in Britain’s share of energy from with insufficient capacity to meet demand. renewable sources and, in particular, on the Government’s Furthermore, in what a number of our witnesses plans for the vastly increased use of intermittent wind felt was the unlikely event that the Government’s power for electricity generation. target is met, we would then be dependent on intermittent Recent changes strengthen our report’s main renewables for our electricity supply to a degree quite conclusions. Renewable energy costs significantly more unprecedented anywhere else in Europe. We would than energy from other sources, conventional or nuclear. move into uncharted waters. The intermittent nature of most renewable power suggests that it should be regarded largely as additional I now turn from the 20 per cent of energy consumption capacity to that which will need to be provided in any represented by electricity to the wider picture. We event by more reliable means. It does not of itself offer normally prefer our debates to generate more light an adequate solution to the urgent need to replace old than heat, but I hope that this debate helps to generate conventional and nuclear generating plant with sufficient a good deal more heat from renewable sources as an capacity to meet demand. A focus on wind power for alternative means of reducing carbon emissions. As electricity risks blinding us to other ways of reducing we have seen, EU targets and the relatively ready carbon emissions that might prove more economic availability of wind turbines have concentrated efforts and effective—for example, a much greater emphasis at compliance on electricity generation. But the dash on renewable heat. for wind should not pre-empt reductions in carbon emissions across the remaining four-fifths of the United Let me expand a little on those conclusions. Costs Kingdom’s energy spectrum. Renewable heat sources, were a prime concern of our inquiry from the outset in in particular, could make a significant contribution view of the scale of investment needed, not least in more cheaply and our report recommends that the wind farms, to meet EU targets. There are several Government should put at least as much emphasis on elements, not all obvious from the outset. First, there exploiting renewable heat as on renewable electricity are the capital and running costs of the turbines, generation. The report also suggests that the Government higher offshore than onshore. Then there is the cost of should keep their eye on the longer term and substantially integrating the turbines and their intermittent output increase the resources applied to research and development into the national electricity grid. Then there is the cost across renewables as a whole. of reserve, non-intermittent generating plant to meet demand when the wind turbines are inactive. This We also need to bear in mind that renewable energy reserve plant is indispensable as little electricity can be sources are by no means the only way to reduce stored. It will have to be very substantial indeed as the carbon emissions while ensuring security of supply. capacity credit of wind turbines—that is, the share of Low-carbon sources of energy can also play an important their output capacity which can be relied upon—is part, as can energy efficiency. The most reliable and very low. Other forms of renewable power generation lowest cost low-carbon alternative to renewable electricity tend to be even more expensive than wind although is nuclear power and we should not lose sight of less unpredictably intermittent. conventional fossil-fuel generation with carbon capture and storage as and when it becomes available. We are clear that the full costs of wind generation, though declining over time, remain significantly higher Noble Lords will have seen that the Government’s than those of conventional or nuclear generation. We response to the committee’s report has been published. are also clear that no significant investment in wind They express agreement with many of our conclusions, power would occur without government financial support. though in most cases in somewhat general terms. Can Our report includes an estimate of the cost of moving the Minister tell us specifically when the Government’s in line with the Government’s targets from 6 per cent renewable energy strategy will emerge? In the mean to 34 per cent in the share of electricity generated from time, will he update the House on a number of important renewable sources. We concluded that the extra annual aspects which have evolved over recent months? First, cost in 2020 would be £6.8 billion, an increase of what is the current position on EU targets and in 38 per cent. In terms of the average household bill, particular of the 15 per cent renewables target proposed that would mean an extra £80 a year. for the UK? Does it still stand? Do the Government As regards security of electricity supply, building, still think that it is achievable? commissioning and integrating by 2020 the large numbers Secondly, what is the impact on targets of the of wind turbines and other renewable sources needed current economic turmoil, including the collapse of to meet the Government’s targets will be a major the price of carbon in the EU Emissions Trading undertaking, especially for offshore wind and tidal Scheme? In recent months there have been many press projects. Furthermore, as we have seen, a great deal of reports of potential investors walking away from wind reserve conventional plant will be needed to allow for farm projects or demanding more government subsidy the intermittent nature of renewable power generation. to go ahead. Do the Government plan to commit To make matters even more demanding, by 2020 about more resources to meeting their targets or to relax one-third of the UK’s stock of conventional and them? Thirdly, what can the Minister tell us about the nuclear electricity generating capacity falls due for performance of those wind turbines already in operation 145 Energy: Renewables[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Energy: Renewables 146 during the recent prolonged period of cold weather? We were given that information by Research Councils Specifically, what proportion of wind turbines’ output UK. In its evidence there was not even a nod to the capacity does recent experience suggest that we can fact that this is one of the greatest problems facing rely on when we need it at times of peak demand? mankind. This is simply an inadequate response from What does that indicate for security of supply when in the scientific community and, ultimately, from the 2020 more than a third of our electricity supply is Government who can give that community its priorities. expected to come from intermittent, renewable sources? It is certainly not a response that inspires the brightest Since the Government agree with the committee minds of a generation. Unless something is done it that we cannot consider renewable energy in isolation will not attract that kind of effort. We surely need from the rest of the UK energy system, can the Minister something more serious. assure us that commitment to specific renewable energy Obviously, the ideal would be an internationally targets will in no way detract from other, potentially co-ordinated effort of the kind that was discussed in more economic, means of meeting the objective of our 2005 report. Following that report, in a speech in reducing carbon emissions? this House our current chairman suggested an Before I close, I want to thank our specialist adviser international programme of research that could be to our inquiry, Professor Richard Green of Birmingham funded by a carbon tax. That is still a very interesting University. I commend the committee’s report to the suggestion linking the use of different energy sources House. to their development. To secure agreement on anything of that sort would take a long time but in the mean time we can surely rethink our own national effort. 5.44 pm One interesting suggestion in our report is an annual international prize awarded by our Government and Lord Layard: My Lords, as a member of the committee possibly others for the most important discovery that produced the report, I begin by paying tribute to contributing to the development of renewable energy. our wonderful chairman. the noble Lord, Lord Vallance, But the key issue for Britain is the size of our research for the excellent way in which he led us through a effort. Here, as elsewhere, money tells. There are a lot minefield. He has just given an outstanding survey of of words in the Government’s reply to our urging a our recommendations. reconsideration of research priorities, as we do in our I shall concentrate on one issue—scientific research current report. But there are no promises; there is and development. Science has produced climate change something that amounts almost to complacency. and ultimately science will have to conquer climate The single fact—the one that I started with—remains. change. Every year the urgency of this task becomes The Government are spending 1 per cent of their more apparent. Only the other day we learnt how scientific research budget on the world’s most pressing greenhouse gas emissions from China and India had problem. That is simply not coming up to the mark. I exceeded their forecast levels. There is no way in which urge the Minister to press his colleagues to adopt a we can preserve our way of life unless we rise to this new style of leadership in this area and a step-change challenge. We are now told that this requires an 80 per in funding. cent reduction in carbon emissions, compared with 1990 levels by 2050, which is only 40 years ahead. That 5.50 pm cannot be achieved without a major programme of basic scientific advance. It is completely unlikely that Lord Lawson of Blaby: My Lords, I follow the that can be done by incremental development and noble Lord, Lord Layard, in paying tribute to our installation of any of the existing renewable technologies chairman, the noble Lord, Lord Vallance, who conducted that were treated in our report. this inquiry with great charm and diligence. He has When our way of life was threatened by fascism we given today an exemplary summary of what was in had the Manhattan project. When we feared Russian our report. I say “our report”, but I have to make it domination of space there was the Apollo programme. clear that I am no longer a member of the committee, Both programmes involved many of the best minds of having been rotated off. This was the last inquiry to their generation. How can we possibly rise to the which I was party, and so I thought that I might say a present challenge without a similar concerted scientific few words today. effort? In 2005, when the Economic Affairs Committee It was a great privilege to be a member of the previously considered climate change, we reported Economic Affairs Committee of this House. During that the international energy authority estimated that my time, a number of reports were produced. I will solar energy, biomass and carbon sequestration could name simply three: the one on the economics of climate be made competitive with oil and gas at a one-off cost change, to which both noble Lords have already referred; of some 1 per cent of annual world GDP.Werecommended the one on the economic impact of immigration; and consideration of a major international programme the one before the House today. It is the sort of thing along those lines. That was four years ago. So what is that the House does particularly well, and I hope that the present position in this country? How much are everyone here, and others too, will read the report that we spending? Paragraph 90 of our report states: we are debating. “Research council spending on renewable energy projects has I will focus my remarks on one section of the risen … to £30 million”, Government’s reply that causes me great concern. By which is 1 per cent of the total spend. We are spending way of preamble, I will allude to a remark made by the 1 per cent of our research effort on what by most noble Lord, Lord Layard, who kept referring to climate consent is the greatest problem facing humanity. change as the greatest problem facing mankind. Well, 147 Energy: Renewables[LORDS] Energy: Renewables 148

[LORD LAWSON OF BLABY] eminence: Professor Helm at Oxford, Professor Nordhaus he is entitled to his opinion, but he may like to know at Yale, Professor Tol, Professor Weitzman of Harvard. that the most thorough survey of climate scientists on Every one has said that the Stern review’s economics is this issue—they ought to have some knowledge and profoundly flawed and utterly mistaken. That is the understanding of the matter—was published in 2007 state of opinion among leading economists who have and conducted by Hans von Storch, professor of studied this. It is understandable that the Government meteorology at Hamburg University. He asked climate like their own man—he was their man at the time—but scientists to identify the greatest threat facing mankind for them to take this economic analysis, which has over the next 100 years. I wonder how many noble been widely discredited and totally shredded, and say, Lords can guess how many scientists answered that “This is the basis for an extremely expensive policy the greatest threat was climate change or global warming. that is going to do great damage to the people of this It was only 8 per cent. country if it is carried through” and ignore completely I return to the Government’s reply, and the passage all the other economic wisdom on this subject from that gives me such concern. In paragraph 6 on page 5, people far more eminent than the noble Lord, Lord the Government say, after accepting that there are Stern, is grotesquely irresponsible. massive costs in trying to decarbonise the economy, in Of course, the Stern review is somewhat all over the particular through wind power, which is about the place. The Minister may not be aware that the review most expensive way that anybody could ever devise: says at one point: “It is also however important to recognise what these costs are “The lesson here is to avoid doing too much, too fast, and to paying for: a reduction in the risk of catastrophic climate change pace the flow of mitigation appropriately. For example, great and dangerous energy insecurity. The Stern Review showed that uncertainty remains as to the costs of very deep reductions. the damage caused by global climate change could cost five times Digging down to emissions reductions of 60-80% or more relative more than the cost of actions to stabilise global emissions by to baseline will require progress in reducing emissions from 2050”. industrial processes, aviation and a number of areas where it is That is what they wrote, and every single thing is presently hard to envisage cost-effective approaches”. demonstrably unfounded. For a policy to be based on That comes from the Stern review. Of course, the assumptions that are clearly incorrect in the view of noble Lord says different things now, just as when he the majority of people who know something about the actually produced the review, he said that the costs subject is irresponsible. would be 1 per cent of GDP. That was completely I will take the statement bit by bit, starting with the, rubbished by Professor Helm in particular, but also by “reduction in the risk of catastrophic climate change”. most of these other economists, so he popped up a little later and said, “Well, maybe it is 2 per cent”. That There is no scientific basis for the view that there will is a 100 per cent difference in a short time. be catastrophic climate change. Mike Hulme, professor of environmental sciences at the University of East It is true that the Stern review has a gift given to few Anglia and director of the Tyndall Centre for Climate of us—certainly not given to me. The review tells us Change Research, said a little while back that, confidently what is likely to happen 100 years, 200 years, “to state that climate change will be ‘catastrophic’ hides a cascade 300 years, and at one point 1,000 years hence. I confess of value-laden assumptions which do not emerge from empirical to noble Lords that I do not know what is going to or theoretical science”. happen 1,000 years hence; I do not know what is going Those are the words of Professor Hulme of the Tyndall to happen 300 years hence; I do not know what is centre, which believes in the conventional wisdom of going to happen 200 years hence; and—do not tell global warming, but says there is no scientific basis for anybody—I do not actually know what is going to talking of catastrophe. Nor, incidentally, does the happen 100 years hence. What I do know is that the IPCC believe in that. That is the first thing that the current certainty is based on the same computer models Government have said that is wholly false and misleading, as the financial services industry relied on to tell it and no basis for public policy. with certainty the risks it was taking in the current financial circumstances, and we know where that led. The second claim is that this policy is needed to It does great discredit to the Government. They are remove dangerous energy insecurity. There is only one not taking the issue seriously. They are taking it gravely serious threat to our energy security in this country at but, intellectually, they are not taking it seriously at present, and that is the Government’s reluctance to all. They should address themselves to it and it gives allow the building of new coal-fired power stations. me great concern that they are not. Coal is abundant in this country and throughout the world. There will be no energy security while the I do not want to detain the House but I do want to building of coal-fired power stations is forbidden. mention one other aspect. The noble Lord, Lord This policy is a cause of the insecurity, not an answer Vallance, said that we will have to look at the issue to it. again in the light of the very different circumstances in which we find ourselves. That is especially true in the The Government’s reply says: developing world, particularly in China and India, “The Stern review showed that the damage caused by global where, everyone agrees, emissions will rise fastest. climate change could cost five times more than the cost of actions They are certainly in no position now, if they ever to stabilise global emissions by 2050”. were, to take on the economic costs of the proposed The Stern review showed nothing of the sort: it merely carbon emissions cuts. The idea of an international asserted it. This has now been examined by leading agreement is therefore completely useless: it will not energy economists and environmental economists on happen. A different approach is necessary as this is both sides of the Atlantic. These are people of considerable unreasonable, unworkable, unrealistic. 149 Energy: Renewables[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Energy: Renewables 150

Another point is causing me considerable concern. fossil fuel options, and that this would mean that their We are going through a very serious world recession adoption would be expensive to the consumer. The because of the banking crisis. It is far worse than year before the academy report was published, I said anything since the 1930s, although in my judgment it in a Times interview that, is not as bad as the 1930s, nor will it be. However, it “government plans to generate 20 per cent of electricity from will be the worst recession since the war. At a time of renewable sources by 2020 were unrealistic and investment in world recession there is always a great impulse to nuclear power was critical if shortages were to be avoided”. protection. That is the great danger now, because it My statement and the conclusions of the academy will make things infinitely worse if countries resort to report were strongly contested at the time by advisers protection. All the normal protectionist impulses are to government, and regrettably it took them several there, but there is also a new one. The leaders of the years to change their minds and come up with a steel and other big industries in America got together strategy that will in fact reduce carbon dioxide and at with organised labour—the AFL-CIO—to say that the same time keep the lights on. tariffs must be put up against imports from countries That brings me to the major point that I wish to not prepared to cut back sharply on their carbon take today—that we have to get on with this task emissions. Let us call them tariffs against China and without further delay and stop the endless debate, India. The same song is being sung by President with one government report and consultation following Sarkozy in France and by a number of people in the another, all of which seem merely an excuse for European Commission in Brussels. It is very dangerous procrastination. It is unfortunate that we have made indeed. some foolish decisions, such as the selling of Westinghouse, In conclusion, I ask the Minister for an undertaking: but we still have residual engineering expertise in most that the United Kingdom will vote against and if areas of power generation and we should as soon as necessary veto any European proposals of this kind possible specialise in selected areas and develop world- for tariff barriers, protectionist measures, border competitive industrial capabilities in renewable energy equalisation taxes—whatever you like to call them— generation and of course in nuclear power. I hope that against trade with China, India and other parts of the the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, will address the subject developing world. of skills, as he has so constructively pursued this issue for many years. 6.02 pm When it comes to timescales, there are some depressing Lord Broers: My Lords, I add my compliments to statements in the report, such as paragraph 176, which the noble Lord, Lord Vallance, and the members and says that the earliest a nuclear station could be built is the staff of the Economic Affairs Committee on their 2017 to 2020. This conclusion was based on evidence report. Like the committee I will not try to tackle the given by the then Minister of State for Energy, question of the validity of global warming. But I Mr Malcolm Wicks, who said: would say, quite apart from that, that I feel that there “The most optimistic scenario I have seen is that there possibly are very serious matters—economic and environmental— could be one”— that justify the investigation of alternative forms of nuclear power plant— energy in any case. “up and running by 2017 and then some others talk about 2018”. This is a broad-ranging report that is realistic about However, he went on to say: the costs and difficulties that will be encountered if we “I guess I am just being a little bit more cautious when I said are to meet our goals in implementing renewable 2020”. energy generation. I think that the volume of evidence Why must this take so long? Why is it that we seem accompanying the report is in effect an encyclopaedia to take so much longer to complete projects than other on energy matters which will be valuable for several countries? It does not seem to matter whether it is a years, especially as the committee made the wise decision runway at Heathrow that is going to take us twice as to tackle the renewable generation of heat and long to build as other countries take to build an transportation as well as electricity. entirely new airport or, in this instance, eight to 11 years As an engineer, it was also not only a pleasure but a to build a nuclear power station, when there are nuclear relief to find within a report on a matter dominated by power stations available today. The report correctly engineering that the recommendations were based largely emphasises the detrimental role that our planning on numbers rather than words and that there was processes play in achieving our aims on schedule, but recognition of the uncertainty and risk involved with falls short of recommending serious revision of these many of the estimates. Finally, it was gratifying to find processes. If we are to survive as a vibrant world that the conclusions were largely in line with conclusions economy we are going to have to speed up. If the drawn by the majority of engineers with whom I have major delays are a result of our planning regulation, been in contact for many years. then let us be more ambitious in our reform of these Five years ago, for example, the Royal Academy of regulations. We need dramatically to speed up the Engineering—I declare my interest as president of the process, perhaps by the introduction of parallelism. academy at that time—produced a report entitled The Processes that again and again deliver too little too Cost of Generating Electricity which drew similar late almost guarantee that we will fall behind. Perhaps conclusions to this report, pointing out that the low-cost, the Minister will be encouraging in his reply and tell us low-carbon option was nuclear fission and that the that the changes that are in the pipeline will in fact cost of wind, wave, marine and biomass and especially greatly reduce the time that it takes to complete the offshore wind were high compared with the nuclear or planning process. 151 Energy: Renewables[LORDS] Energy: Renewables 152

[LORD BROERS] “The technical challenges and costs of backup generation on Rather than spending the majority of our time—let a scale large enough to balance an electricity system with a high alone the mind-numbing sums of taxpayers’ money proportion of intermittent renewable generation are still uncertain. Whereas the highest share of intermittent renewable electricity which make every sum mentioned in this report seem now being generated in Europe is 15% in Denmark, the UK is trivial—on propping up our ill-managed banks, we expected to reach a share of some 30-40 %”— should rapidly launch some infrastructure projects by 2020. The Government’s response was: that will secure the nation’s future. There are renewable “Not all of this will come from intermittent sources”. energy projects of all sizes that would be appropriate, That was all. There was no answer to our main point. I and future generations would thank us for pursuing would be grateful if the Minister could respond to them, rather than wondering with dismay how we these two points. First, can he quantify what “not all stumbled into blackouts and failed to meet our goals of this”means? Does it mean that a very high proportion for reducing carbon dioxide. will still have to come from wind farms? Secondly, will he now deal with the point that the government 6.10 pm response did not? How will a share of 30 to 40 per Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market: My Lords, I cent—or even 30 per cent—be achieved when no begin by thanking the Government and the Leader of other EU Government, however dedicated, and with the House for holding this debate so soon after our better support and planning systems with which to report was finished and the government response received, achieve it, is anywhere near that figure, nor intending and for not having it on a Friday. I hope that this will to be so? set a precedent for future debates on Select Committee I have recently been reading the Government’s reports. I congratulate our chairman, the noble Lord, document, Community benefits from wind power.It Lord Vallance, not only on the admirable way in makes clear that, as regards the achievements of wind which he chaired our committee, but for giving a very power and wind farms on a much greater scale in some good summary of our recommendations today. European countries, there are really no lessons to be As we can see from the government response, there learnt from them about community benefits here because is general agreement between the Government and the their systems are so different. If I were in the Government, committee on several recommendations. I do not intend I would harbour serious doubts about the ability of to focus on those because we are already in agreement. the wind farm industry to deliver targets on this scale. I want to focus on one point, which relates to the 2020 Onshore, how much will a host of often very small-scale target and the various recommendations that we make wind farms, dotted around the country, be able to about that in paragraphs 236, 238 and 258. This is contribute to this massive objective? I suspect that by where the Government’s response is weakest; indeed, far the largest contribution will have to come from it is very weak. Some of our witnesses would say that offshore wind farms, where the scale issues and links it simply is not credible. The noble Lord, Lord Vallance, to the grid are more achievable. Even here, as we have has already referred to this, but I will develop it a little seen from the serious doubts of some major companies further. In so doing, I declare two interests as chairman about investing in these major projects, the question of British Energy pension funds and as questioning mark over achievability by 2020 looks very large indeed. some small-scale wind farm projects in Norfolk. I do There are also problems about the limits on the supply not think that either of these will bear on my argument. abilities of the industry to meet these targets. There are, as we know, two targets. The 2050 target Thirdly, on a separate point about wind farms, in is long-term and much technical development will be our report—and I think the noble Lord, Lord Vallance, possible in that time. However, it is unlikely, in practice, referred to this—we refer to the intermittent nature of to be effective by 2020. Solar power, low-carbon wind turbines and some other renewable generators technology, carbon capture and storage, tidal energy meaning that they can replace only a little of the and, of course, nuclear power will make a much more capacity of fossil fuel and nuclear power plants if significant contribution in that period. We have covered security of supply is to be maintained. That is why we this in the report. There is time to gain the benefits of drew attention to the point that investment in renewable the R&D, to make investments and to adjust to generation capacity will therefore be in addition to, technological developments between 2020 and 2050. rather than a replacement for, the massive investment The target of 15 per cent renewable energy by 2020 is in fossil fuel and nuclear plants required to replace the much more immediate. It is an arbitrary date, so we many power stations scheduled for closure by 2020. have set ourselves an arbitrary target, which most of The Government’s response was that the scale of our witnesses thought, at best, very challenging, and investment and the timescale within which it is needed at worst, unachievable. I will first elaborate more fully is, of course, “challenging”. The subsequent paragraphs on why that is so and turn then to the consequences. in the report, about how the challenge is to be met, I will make five points. First, the Government admit were, frankly, a fudge. in their response that the 2020 target is “extremely Fourthly, there is the question of affordability, which challenging”in paragraph 5 on page 5; involves “difficult the noble Lord, Lord Vallance, and my noble friend trade-offs and costs” on page 6; “challenging” on Lord Lawson have already referred to. I was going to page 8; and “ambitious” on page 17. The Government’s ask how much input the Treasury had into the explanations as to how these challenges will be overcome Government’s response. Then I spotted what I suspect in each of these different sections of the response falls that input is. Twice in the response, the “extremely far short of being reassuring. challenging” references had been added to. In one Secondly, there is the reliance on wind farms. I case, quote briefly from our report: “particularly in the current global economic conditions”— 153 Energy: Renewables[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Energy: Renewables 154 was added, and in the other, I was not certain what the report was trying to indicate “particularly given the current investment climate”— by that, because it does not specify what the short-term was added. Much of our discussion took place last options are. If it just means wind, I wish it would have year before the full impact of the credit crunch and the just said that and said that nuclear is a good thing, global situation was evident, so it was not taken into because that is how I read that section. account at that stage. Looking ahead over the next few The report goes through many of the issues in some years, what are the implications of getting sufficient depth, and there is great value in it. However, I was private capital investment? There are even more quite surprised, given that it is a report by the Economic implications for the Government in the impact of the Affairs Committee, that it suggests that if we go public investment required to encourage wind farms. towards our renewables target it will add an extra £80 In the current and foreseeable economic situation, to every bill in the country by 2020. That is a fantastically these seem simply not to be affordable. accurate prediction, considering that there has been a Finally, a considerable proportion of our current massive swing in domestic and other energy bills over electricity generation will have to be replaced from the past three years, which has gone far beyond £80 2017 anyway. New nuclear plants will be the key in the one way or the other. I agree that there will be a cost period up to 2020 and for some time thereafter. I agree supplement for promoting a renewables strategy.However, with the noble Lord, Lord Broers, about this. With the I was rather disappointed that the report did not talk best will in the world, starting late as we are, new about the problems that we are facing with energy nuclear plants will not have contributed much by security. By 2020, we might be looking at as much as 2020. 80 per cent of our gas being imported from abroad. All of these points led us to a conclusion that was, That will have a massive implication for the fluctuation perhaps, not as specific as some of us would have in prices. We only have to go back over the past two or liked, but is nevertheless clear. We should be flexible three years to work out what happened when the on the arbitrary 2020 target date, renegotiating it if interconnectors were not supplying gas from the continent necessary. Professor Helm pointed out that we should in the way that they should have and the spot price of have a credible renewables target, which there is a gas was going up and down massively. Therefore, reasonable prospect of achieving. He was certainly rather than increase bills, there will be a cost, but this not alone in that. There are consequences to setting, might reduce how markets can go up and down, but not achieving, a target of 2020 and depending on especially if we are so reliant on gas, as it looks like we wind as the major source. Not only is our credibility is will be. at stake, but the loss of face from failure, because the target was too ambitious, would also be evident. Not Much was made in previous speeches of the fact only is there a potentially a much higher cost because that prices are changing and the report needs to be of the short-term balancing costs to meet intermittency— rewritten in the light of the recession or the depression. with the estimates put to us varying between £500 million I am not sure whether we are in a recession or depression; and £1.4 billion—which will also have an impact, but it seems to change on a regular basis. This will change above all there is the high risk that, as BP put it, the economics of the issues of renewable energy. I because the timescale for the targets is short, went to a seminar on wind turbines, where there was great concern that large numbers of projects would “investment would be skewed to those technologies which work today as opposed to those technologies which might be right for have to be cancelled because the cost of the steel for the longer term”. the wind turbines had shot up so much—because That is why, in paragraph 258, we are also concerned there was such demand for steel—that the turbines that determination to meet the target may lead to an were becoming unaffordable. Now, there has been a over-emphasis on promoting short-term options simply massive decrease in the cost of steel. Although there because they are available, rather than because they has been a lack of credit, which is quite badly affecting offer the most effective and economical means of the wind turbine industry and the prospects of many reducing carbon dioxide emissions over the longer wind turbine farms, there is an issue about variations term. In their response, the Government did not address in cost, which could make wind cheaper rather than that point, related to the 2020 target, which is crucial more expensive. in our report. I hope that the Minister can address it One of the problems that the recession has brought tonight. has been a collapse in the carbon price as companies 6.19 pm do not use up their carbon allowance. To raise finance, many of them are selling off the excess credits. The Lord Redesdale: My Lords, although I think this is noble Lord, Lord Lawson, has shown that he is a an extremely valuable report, I am probably the first climate sceptic. I am an ETS sceptic of the highest to say that I am quite disappointed with its contents. If order. I do not believe that the European Emissions you read it in one respect, it seems to be saying that it Trading Scheme will lead to a regulation of the carbon is an either/or situation; you either have renewables or markets. The recent collapse in the carbon price shows you have nuclear. I do not feel that that is the situation the fragility of that system. I very much hope that, at all. The report talks about having a broad base and although the Government are putting a great deal of a mix, but a large number of the conclusions talk faith in this, it will be a wake-up call to the problems about the need for nuclear. Indeed, I was interested that are affecting carbon. that the previous speaker talked about paragraph 258, which states: I go back to the nuclear argument. I do not think “We are also concerned that determination to meet the target that anyone in this House who has listened to me may lead to an over-emphasis on promoting short-term options”. speak on this subject many times before would be 155 Energy: Renewables[LORDS] Energy: Renewables 156

[LORD REDESDALE] We should realise that it is much cheaper to locate surprised that I am sceptical about the arguments being wind turbines onshore. We are looking offshore because made about nuclear. Obviously, many environmentalists of planning constraints, but there is much greater are moving towards the building of nuclear power reliability offshore. This is an area that I am particularly stations as a low-carbon option. However, my real concerned about. It is mentioned in the report as concern is that it is not a silver bullet that will suddenly energy storage. We should be looking at large-scale solve our needs, because of the timescale. During a energy storage so that the power from wind turbines Question yesterday, the Minister talked about the first can be stored and used in a much more effective way. nuclear power station coming on in 2018 and then To find out that only £1.2 million is being invested in nuclear power stations coming online in the 2020s and energy storage, a technology that we will need in the probably into the 2030s. To build up the level of future if we are to expand into renewables, is a massive generation that we need from these power stations, we disappointment. are talking decades, because we start from such a low Another disappointment in the report was the omission basis. The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, will probably of biomethane and biogas as a form of renewable gas mention that even if we had the skills base in this which is going to be a major source of renewables in country to manage such a massive expansion of the the future. Germany has 3,500 anaerobic digestion nuclear fleet, we do not have the companies any more. plants. I declare an interest in that I have just become I am also sceptical about the prices given for each the chairman of the Anaerobic Digestion and Biogas of the different renewables, which includes some figures Association. Our stated aim is to try and build 1,000 plants on nuclear. I have seen a large number of these figures over the next 10 years. over the past few years, and they have changed quite The report states that there will be a massive cost in considerably year on year. However, some of the figures renewables. Nobody should underestimate the cost around nuclear that are given in the report are rather but we should not underestimate either the cost that is optimistic, considering that we still have not come up going to have to be pumped into the energy sector. We with a suitable geological storage area. We have not have underinvested in plants over the last few years. even decided on the site, and we have certainly not There is going to be a massive investment in all areas decided when the building is going to happen, which of generation and a massive investment needed in the could be 20 years from now. To generate figures concerning transmission network, which has not been looked at in how much that will cost would affect those figures this report. It was only mentioned once in the White quite considerably. Paper and was left out of the two White Papers before Many noble Lords have talked about wind farms. I that. We should not forget that we are now signed up always find it amazing that there has been such a shift to reducing by 2050 the amount of carbon dioxide we over the years. A few years ago, nuclear was seen as are emitting into the atmosphere by 80 per cent. The very dangerous indeed. Now, it seems that nuclear is cost is going to be massive, as is the behavioural about as safe as you can get, and you could have your change needed, so we cannot look at the economics as lunch off a nuclear reactor. However, if you happen to being business as usual. This report highlights that to be walking across a moor and see a wind turbine, your achieve that we are going to have to make massive head will suddenly explode through the affront to changes. your sensibilities about wind turbines. I know that a lot of people do not like wind turbines. However, the 6.32 pm surveys that have been done of people who live near wind turbines show that the majority of the population The Earl of Selborne: My Lords, I declare an interest actually like them. I personally enjoy seeing them. I as chairman of the publicly funded Living with was passing over the border at Tow Law, where there is Environmental Change research programme, which a wind farm. There was great opposition saying that it includes research on adaptation to a changing climate was going to spoil the countryside. However, I noticed and climate mitigation. I think the whole House will that they have built a car park so that people can park wish to thank the noble lord, Lord Vallance, for and watch the wind turbines. It has almost become a introducing this authoritative report. The analysis of tourist attraction in its own right. the economics of renewable energy, particularly the Different people have different views. It has become warnings about the cost of generating and transmitting incredibly difficult to build wind turbines. The noble electricity from geographically remote wind turbines, Lord, Lord Broers, mentioned the problem of how is something which we should take great care to notice. long it will take to get nuclear power stations through In paragraph 253 the committee calls on the the planning process. Similarly, wind farm costs have Government to look afresh at the United Kingdom’s been directly affected by the problems with the planning research effort into renewables and to consider, process. Every single wind turbine that is talked about “what more could be done, in a global context, to promote more, always attracts attention. I speak from personal experience. and more focussed, research across a range of technologies leading I tried to put up a small, 6.8 kilowatt, 30-foot wind to new, effective and economical ways to reduce carbon emissions”. turbine tower that you would not be able to see from It is this recommendation that I would like to explore more than 200 metres away, and I received a letter of further. I agree with evidence from BP, quoted in complaint from someone in Leeds. I found that quite paragraph 223, which draws attention to the risk that, incredible. This was someone who had no idea what I because the timescale of existing targets for renewable was doing, but because I wanted to put up a wind energy is so short, investment will be skewed to turbine in a national park, they objected. That is the technologies that work today as opposed to those problem that wind turbines have. which might be right for the longer term. 157 Energy: Renewables[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Energy: Renewables 158

There are pointers throughout the report on where use of domestic wood-burning stoves. I only wish that more, and more focussed, research might best be deployed. the Forestry Commission would set a better example The figures for the percentage of final energy consumption by heating all its premises from wood chips and encourage are fundamental to this discussion: heat accounts for the rest of Government to look more carefully at these 42 per cent, transport 39 per cent and electricity only district heating schemes. 19 per cent. So any technology which delivers competitively The Treasury has proved obstinate over many years priced heat and transport fuels from renewable sources, by discouraging the production of fuels from waste providing it is not intermittent, ticks a lot of boxes. oil, whether cooking oil or hazardous waste oils such Biomass has the potential to meet these energy needs, as engine oils, metal-working oils, greases and the like, though at present we are short of biomass feedstock. by charging a higher duty on waste oils used for fuel As the report notes in paragraph 40, landfill gas is than waste oil which is cleaned up for re-use. The currently the largest source of biomass generation, but argument the Treasury advances consistently, and in this is already fully exploited. Indeed, it may well be my view wrongly, is that the European Union waste declining; one hopes it is. The report says that any directives require it to give preference to the regeneration growth in biomass generation will likely come from of waste oil above combustion. Regeneration is not an burning more waste or from energy crops. Quite frankly, economic proposition in most cases, while refining using more land for growing energy crops at a time of and then burning would be economic were it not for increasing food insecurity seems unwise. That leaves the present prohibitive duties. Nor is the respective burning waste as the only option for increased biomass- carbon footprint of the two processes taken into derived energy. consideration. Treating and then combustion will certainly In so far as waste is derived from crop residues and have the lesser carbon footprint. The Government non-food plant matter, there is no obstacle imposed to have the right under the EU directives to reduce the using these materials as energy sources. However, when rate of duty and they should exercise this power. we look at materials which have been labelled as waste Used cooking oils, like hazardous oils, can be refined in the waste hierarchy, we make great difficulties in to produce a clean carbon-neutral fuel. When this this country when a company seeks to convert these came before the Court of Appeal in July 2007 it waste streams into a fuel. The report mentions— recommended that Defra and the Environment Agency particularly in Appendix 6, where it looks at new needed to provide guidance as to what recycling had technologies—second-generation biofuels, which are to be done by the producers to ensure that used oil had manufactured from residues such as straw, wood, mowings, been converted into a distinct marketable product whole plants not suitable for food, and any other which could be classified as a fuel. To my knowledge, biological waste. However, the report notes in paragraph at least one company at present wants to start mass 169 that this technology is still emerging and not yet producing electricity and heat from used cooking oil available on a commercial scale. The report uses the but cannot do so until Defra and the Environment word “emerging” advisedly because emerging it is. Agency produce this long awaited guidance. The Second-generation biofuels are being produced in pilot Environment Agency can then tell them whether their plants in north America and elsewhere, and without a product meets the guidance and can be classified as a doubt they will eventually be scaled up. We in this fuel. I hope the Minister can tell the House tonight country need to follow this technology closely. I can whether this guidance is going to be issued and, if so, assure the noble Lord, Lord Layard, that massive when. sums of money are spent on this in the United States. Waste oils are only a small potential contributor to Let us not try to compete against them but make sure renewable feedstock for energy. But the fact that the that we benefit from the research which they are Treasury has consistently chosen to interpret the EU investing so heavily in. We need to encourage its waste directives in a way which is inconsistent with application at the right time in the United Kingdom. other member states and which puts a modest but The city of Chicago has concluded that a significant helpful industry at a grave disadvantage demonstrates proportion of its own energy requirements will one a failure to understand just how important it is to day be met from its urban waste using this technology. encourage all such sources of renewable energy. If we Let us hope they are right. are to rely so heavily on intermittent wind, we need all Meanwhile we also have to use existing biomass other available sources of renewable energy. technologies. We have been very slow to develop wood-chip boilers for combined heat and power even though in 6.40 pm this country we have extensive woodlands close to centres of population. The management of these woods, Lord Chorley: My Lords, I first read this report of great importance for wildlife, would greatly benefit during the Christmas Recess. I thought then that it from a new income stream. I farm and own woods in was quite admirable. It deals with the whole gamut of the south-east of England, which is the most extensively renewable energy issues comprehensively, succinctly wooded region of England, yet most of the privately and objectively. It focuses mainly, and in my view owned woodlands can only be described as either rightly, on wind energy and, with great authority, it derelict or at least no longer productive. As the report deals not only with the perennial issues of back-up notes, we could achieve the same carbon savings from and intermittency but also with a point that tends to renewable heat for about a third of the cost of the be ignored: the cost of grid connections and the same carbon savings from renewable electricity. The problems that arise from that. The report also disposes Forestry Commission has advocated the wider use of of what I call the Danish canard: the fact that the wood-chip boilers for district heating schemes and the Danes are applauded by everyone for achieving an 159 Energy: Renewables[LORDS] Energy: Renewables 160

[LORD CHORLEY] The Select Committee put its finger on the issue. admirable 15 per cent of their electricity supply from Bearing in mind that it was mainly concerned with the wind, while ignoring the fact that, for back-up, they economics, this is pretty strong stuff. Paragraph 254 rely on being part of the much wider Nordic electricity states: supply system, which relies on hydro and nuclear. “We recognise that power companies need a streamlined planning I re-read the report during the recent break with system to approve or reject projects more quickly. But local and national concerns about environmental degradation must also be renewed admiration. I was also able to obtain a copy addressed. It is important to ensure that the planning system of the Government’s response, which was published adequately assesses the costs to local communities and the balance just eight days ago, in the middle of the Recess—that between national priorities and local decision-making. The is cutting things fine. Be that as it may, I found that, Government should also examine how far local communities although it was cautious and defensive, it was more share in the economic benefits created by wind farm deployment helpful than is often the case with government responses, and other renewable projects”. which so often are rather dismissive. Since the report was published, we have had the Planning Act and the new processes that go with it. Like the committee, I shall concentrate mainly on The Government rightly draw attention to that in their wind energy and economic issues, but I also want to lengthy reply. There will be national policy statements, touch on environmental and social aspects. It is clear and one presumes that those will be reviewed by this from the report that few, indeed probably none, of the House. We have the Infrastructure Planning Commission, expert witnesses thought that the target of 15 per cent which will then, I presume, take over on a case-by-case by 2020 was feasible—in some cases, remotely feasible. basis. Local authorities are statutory consultees, as The committee’s comments at paragraphs 228 to 231 indeed are the national parks authorities and, I think, are notable. One might add that they are also notable Natural England. That is important. It would be very for their restraint. I quote paragraph 229: helpful if at some stage the Government set out in “We are also concerned that determination to meet the target detail how they see this process being worked out. may lead to an over-emphasis on promoting short-term options, What, for example, will be the timetable, or perhaps simply because they are available”. timetables? Also important is what happens in the The next paragraph reads: mean time. When will we start and what will it all look like? There are many consequential questions; for “We have a particular concern over the prospective role of wind generated … electricity”. example, the Government’s response states that it is common in the UK for wind farm developers to It goes on in the same vein. Wind is unreliable and the provide community payments. Is that to a local authority true cost remains significantly higher than that of or to individuals? If to the latter, is the recipient conventional or nuclear generation, even before allowing selected according to proximity? Those are all interesting for the support costs. There are also the environmental and important questions. costs and impact of wind farms. I could go on. For example, I would like to explore The Government’s response is notable. They believe offshore wind farms, touched on by a number of that the measures set out in the consultation document speakers. I have the impression that the Government have the potential—the Government’s word—to meet hope that they will be less controversial. They may be the target. Any department which has to rely on the right, but will they help to fill the gap? Perhaps they word “potential”is clearly not very confident of meeting may, but one has the impression that there are serious its target, but at least it is frank. I do not mind much financing problems and very little real experience. whether the target is achieved, but I am concerned In the end, one cannot help agreeing with the final about the considerable consequences. I am concerned paragraph of the report, the gist or underlying sense about the inevitable pressures applied to allow planning of which is that the overwhelming concentration on permissions against the wishes of local, rural communities. wind is not the right way forward. We seek, at considerable Here I totally disagree with almost everything which and unnecessary expense, to cure one form of the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, said. I see he is not in environmental damage by inflicting on ourselves or on his place. one part of the community an alternative form of We all know what is going on. In a way, it is an environmental damage. That is not very sensible. age-old case of town versus country. My concern is not so much with the threat to national parks or to 6.50 pm areas of outstanding natural beauty, although goodness knows the wind farm companies, given half a chance, Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, I join other would try to build right up to the edge of national noble Lords in paying tribute to the noble Lord, Lord parks. They have very little appreciation of landscape Vallance, and to the committee for an extremely readable values and the scenery surrounding the parks; the report full of wisdom. The chairman is to be Lake District National Park is already partially ringed congratulated, in particular, on producing a unanimous by wind farms and there are new threats on the report, notwithstanding that one member of the horizon. The more insidious threat is to ordinary, committee is my noble friend Lord Lawson, whose rural England. We need to bear in mind that the new trenchant views were eloquently put to the House an generation of turbines are 350 feet tall, taller than hour or so ago. Victoria Tower; moreover, we are told that they are The noble Lord, Lord Broers, said that I should likely to get bigger still. I suggest that most people talk about skills, a subject in which I am extremely who think that wind farms look quite nice on the interested. I want to ask why people are not standing horizon are looking at quite small turbines. up and shouting to young people and those losing 161 Energy: Renewables[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Energy: Renewables 162 their job that there are jobs in the energy industry, by Ofgem that all the environmental costs borne by with training available, and they will be for life. People the energy industries are passed on to the consumer, could use this opportunity to change their careers and including the cost of the Emissions Trading Scheme, recognise, as the noble Lord, Lord Myners, said the renewables obligations certificates and other environmental other day, that there should be less financial engineering measures. Last year, Ofgem gave the figure of about and more real engineering. I hope that bodies such as £79 for the average household. I shall make a suggestion the Nuclear Industry Association—the noble Lord, and hope that the Government will take it up: as Lord O’Neill, is not in his place—will shout out to the Ofgem is already involved in doing this work, could it whole population that here are jobs for life and people not be asked to produce a report and try to find out should be looking at them. why the committee came to a figure more than three My noble friend Lord Macgregor and the noble times higher than the Government are prepared to Lord, Lord Chorley, emphasised the near impossibility concede? Ofgem should do it. It is qualified and ought of achieving the target of 15 per cent of all energy to be asked. from renewables by 2020. Indeed, so incredible is this Thirdly, there are issues about access to the grid. target that the former Chief Scientific Adviser was Offshore wind seems to be happening. The other day I moved to suggest that possibly the heads of state, late was looking at an offshore wind farm being built just at night towards the end of their deliberations, had off the coast of east Essex. Access and connections to muddled energy and electricity. I checked that out, the grid have emerged as being among the most serious and I was told that the heads of state knew exactly obstacles to generation from offshore wind. Paragraph 201 what they were doing. However, even with 15 per cent of the report criticises Ofgem’s use of competitive as opposed to 20 per cent, they have produced a figure tenders as leading to, that is frankly incredible for this country, except for “a piecemeal approach to building the networks of wires and one thing. From the Dispatch Box about three years cables required to connect offshore wind farms to the electricity ago, the former Minister for science, the noble Lord, grid”. Lord Sainsbury of Turville, firmly said that in his view In their response, the Government broadly agree with nuclear power should be regarded as a renewable that and set out what they are doing to secure a more source. Of course, the French are happy to agree the co-ordinated approach. However, I am told that there 20 per cent figure because they have already got all is a nearly unanimous view across the industry among that nuclear, and I do not suppose they worry about it. licensees, generators and manufacturers that the Ofgem Why cannot the Government take that decision and approach, now supported by DECC, is, recognise nuclear power? I asked the noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury, about it afterwards, and he asked why, as “complex, fragmented and likely to lead to inefficient outcomes”. there is 1,000 years’ worth of nuclear fuel in the earth, There should be a more strategic approach to planning it should not be regarded as a renewable source. the offshore grid for round 3 developments. That This has been an interesting debate. My noble would enable a more effective way of connecting offshore friend Lord Selborne emphasised the figure that comes wind farms to the grid. When are the Government out of the report. One of its strongest recommendations going to recognise that view of industry, respond to it is that we should look to renewables other than or in and implement what it wants? addition to wind. The Government seem to have got At paragraph 242, the report recommends organising totally hooked on the proposition that only windmills the queue for attachment to the grid more successfully. are an appropriate renewable source. That cannot be The Government broadly welcome that. However, there right, and I support those who have been arguing that is another view. A briefing I have had states that there there must be more research into this. should be a “connect and manage” arrangement, which At this stage in the debate I shall confine myself to means, a few specific points. First, we are promised the “obliging the national grid to provide commercially firm grid Government’s response to the consultation on renewables. access within four years of generators making a committed When are they going to produce their national planning connection application”. statement on energy? It is provided for under the In addition to putting the unlikely applications to the Planning Act, which we passed at the end of the back of the queue, which is one suggestion, there previous Session. Everything is hanging fire. There are would be other advantages to having a firm way of constant complaints about the planning system holding getting this. The briefing continues: things up, and the new planning system in the Act “Commercially firm grid access means that, so long as a depends on these national planning statements. physical link to the transmission system can be put in place, Secondly, there is an extraordinary discrepancy between generators will have full export rights. Such an arrangement the committee’s estimate of what the policy will cost would significantly improve the investability and bankability of generation developments and significantly reduce the uncertainty by 2020 and the Government’s estimate. The committee associated with transmission investment decisions”. estimates that the cost will be £6.8 billion by 2020, which is £80 per annum for the average household. In There is a lot of sense in that. I hope the Government their response, the Government disagree and say that will be prepared to look at that again and that the it will be £2 billion to £2.5 billion. That is an astonishing Minister will be able to give us an answer. discrepancy. The committee heard a mass of evidence My next point is perhaps more controversial. It is from which it deduced its figures, and the Government about the committee’s recommendation in paragraph 243: produced their own figures. This ought to be cleared “We consider that the current system of Transmission Use of up. We cannot go on with that sort of discrepancy. In System charges sends broadly appropriate signals of the costs of previous debates, I have drawn attention to the estimate locating generators at different points on the system”. 163 Energy: Renewables[LORDS] Energy: Renewables 164

[LORD JENKIN OF RODING] work out what your tactics were, which is the reason The Government’s response is even shorter: for my sympathy. That said, the report contains a great “The Government welcomes the Committee’s support for the deal of useful information. I have picked up on one current system of Transmission Use of System charges”. immediate figure from page 12 of the report, which I am told that this statement about sending broadly illustrates energy flows in the United Kingdom. I have appropriate signals is significantly challenged by a never seen them set out quite as clearly and admirably number of major and minor operators in the system. before, and it enables me to direct one point straight at Transmission charges in Scotland, for instance, remain the Minister. At the bottom of that figure is a wonderful high, volatile and unpredictable, yet generators in the amount of energy: south of Great Britain receive a payment from the National Grid while those in the north face a large “Lost in power stations & network, used by the energy industry”. charge. That seems pretty odd to me. Most of that is waste heat: I sometimes think that we We should have a uniform charge for each unit of in this Palace produce a great deal of that, but most of energy exported on to the grid. Again, I am told that ours is not recoverable while most of that ought to be. this approach would result in predictable transmission I have touched on this subject before, but we are doing charges providing certainty to developers of new absolutely nothing to try to sort out our energy problems generation projects. Of course, there would be winners if we do not sort that one out. and losers, but it should be perfectly possible for the grid eventually to have the same revenue. Total revenue If we finish up with nuclear power stations surrounded recovered from the generators would not change, but by acres of glass, or something like that, because be more evenly distributed. It is completely illogical horticulture is the only use that people can find for that it presently costs £22 per kilowatt in transmission that heat—it is not easy to convey heat to conurbations charges for generation located in the north of Scotland from coastal areas—so be it. However, we need to whereas generators south of London are paid £8 per recognise the implications of what we are about, and kilowatt. It means that an 800-megawatt plant in we need a totally different public attitude because the north Scotland pays £17.6 million a year, while one in problems that we face are, despite what my noble Southampton would receive £6.4 million a year. friend Lord Lawson says, very great. It will take a major effort, and I agree very much with the noble I am told that the Government have been getting Lord, Lord Layard, who was echoed by the noble arguments on this from both sides, and have not yet Lord, Lord Broers, and others. Up until now, the made up their mind. I hope that is true. There seems approach has been both inadequate and really considerable merit to me in this scheme of a unified unsatisfactory. That said, although this is no excuse unit charge for attachment to the grid, and I hope that for the Government, there has been a reason for the Government can come to a clear decision in the prevarication in that there has been no clear strategic not too distant future. Is the system to be changed in ambition, without which it has been extremely difficult that direction, or not? I do not necessarily expect an to deal with these issues. answer from the Minister tonight, but I put the question as something which the Government have to decide. I would like to repeat something that was said to me more than a decade ago by the noble Lord, Lord 7.02 pm Flowers, who, sadly, nowadays we see rather less in his Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, it is a pleasure to place than we used to. We served together on the express my gratitude both to the noble Lord, Lord Science and Technology Committee, and one day he Vallance, for his wonderful summing-up of this report remarked to me that mankind only has one source of and, indeed, to all the members of the Select Committee energy, which is nuclear, but we had a choice. The on Economic Affairs. I would like to express a slightly choice was between having a nuclear power station different reaction from most others, because I feel here and having one 98 million miles away. It was a great sympathy for everybody involved in this report. long time before I had worked out the implications of what he said, but one of them is clearly that all of the The report is directed largely at the 2020 situation, fossil fuels we use are in fact a form of solar energy, and inevitably at the electricity generation problem, stored over geological time. The process that produced because that is the one immediately to hand. However, those fuels locked underground large quantities of that is essentially a tactical issue; when this report was carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, producing the being written nobody was thinking about our strategic atmosphere that enabled mankind eventually to develop. target, which had not been defined. The Government had an aspiration for 2050, but we now have a Climate Today, we are happily pouring that carbon dioxide Change Committee, a Climate Change Act and a back into the atmosphere again, and whether we produce target. That target is not particularly directed at the conditions where we can continue to survive remains electricity generating industry but at the whole economy, to be seen, yet changes are going on despite what my and will undoubtedly have a huge general effect on noble friend Lord Lawson says. The polar ice caps, industry. Of course, it must include road transport— both Arctic and Antarctic, are retreating. Glaciers in indeed, all transport—and take in the whole heating places such as the Alps and the Himalayas are retreating. sector, and so on. That will require a very different The salinity of the ocean around the Antarctic is approach from the one the committee inevitably had changing, so plankton populations are diminishing. to work towards in this report. We do not know what effect these changes will have, I do not remember much about my military career, and my noble friend may well argue that they are but one of the fundamentals of life was that you random, will have no long-term effect and may be always had to have a clear strategy before trying to reversed. 165 Energy: Renewables[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Energy: Renewables 166

Lord Lawson of Blaby: My Lords, I am sure that my Denmark is often used out of ignorance for one noble friend wishes the House to have an accurate argument or another, as are the various comparative picture of what is happening, so I have to suggest to renewable technologies and where they stand today. him that he is slightly out of date. Sea ice levels are Professor Dieter Helm has been mentioned a couple now at their highest since satellite records first began of times. He is certainly one of my heroes in this area. many years ago. The Antarctic’s shelf ice has been I have read some of his other papers, and the one that increasing substantially, and no increase in the temperature I remember most was the one that said that the cost to of the planet, which is meant to be at the bottom of all the global economy of the measures that we need will this, has been recorded by the Met Office or anyone be much higher than the Stern report suggested. That else for the whole of this century so far. Indeed, the is true, and is something that I think we all understand. World Meteorological Organisation has recently reported Stern’s assumptions may have been optimistic. We all that 2008 was the coldest year this century. My noble realise that the cost will probably be more than that, friend might do well to update himself, if I may say so but we all realise what the cost will be if we do with great respect. nothing. That is always the comparison. Professor Helm also pointed out very strongly that Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, my noble friend is none of the policy decisions and actions that have probably quite correct to say that 2008 was the coldest been taken by national Governments has so far had year of this century, but I remind him that this century any effect on carbon emissions to date. One of his is only nine years old. I am not going to bandy figures other very strong messages was that we are looking about, because there are figures and figures, and people through the wrong end of the telescope when we look work one way or another. I merely remind the House at carbon emissions by nation; we should really look that for a very long time there was a section of people at carbon consumption. This is one of his main arguments in a different industry—on a much narrower subject— in the academic press in other areas. who believed that there was no linkage between smoking and lung cancer. Regrettably, my noble friend In an answer to a question asked by the chairman will increasingly find himself in that position as time of the committee, Professor Helm says: advances. “We certainly have a serious responsibility to address climate change, and we are responsible for quite a lot of the past emissions It took me some time to realise the exact implications, that are up there in the atmosphere, so I would not in any way which I have spelt out, of what my noble friend Lord want to belittle the need for the UK to make its contribution”. Flowers said. We have to do things, and we are setting Although Professor Helm has some very important about doing something that has not been achieved things to say, and although there are some very important before. It is possible to pull off the internet in graphic lessons to be learnt from what he says, he understands form the carbon emissions of every major economy in that climate change can be addressed by policy decisions, the world. They are most interesting. Except in times even if he does not particularly like those decisions. of major international conflict or major economic We must remember this area behind the report. We collapse, there have been no reductions in gas emissions cannot ignore it. The whole raison d’être of renewables in any country except for one, which we should bear in is the climate change agenda. We cannot get away mind. The one country that actually achieved a reduction from that. We cannot look at renewables without was France. The reduction occurred in the 1970s and seeing that agenda and, to a lesser degree, the agenda early 1980s, when France moved from coal for electricity of energy security. Clearly the energy security challenge generation to nuclear. Every country in the world—we could be met completely by a coal-based solution are now dealing with a global problem—now has to rather than a renewables solution, but if we believe set about bringing about that change. It was not going that climate change is an issue, renewables can contribute to be easy, and it is still not going to be easy, but, as well. We cannot have a scenario in which renewables despite what my noble friend says, we must ask whether are not an essential part of the answer to the climate we can afford to risk not doing it. Given the enormous change challenge. The follow-on from that is that if pool of international science from a very great proportion renewables are part of the solution, some people will of all the nations of the world, which have agreed on see nuclear as also being part of it, and others will see this programme, the evidence, despite what my noble carbon capture and storage. friend says, is that we cannot afford to take that risk. The big area which the report does not address—quite We need a much more decisive period now. The understandably, as it is not within its remit, which it Government need to think about the strategy rather makes clear—is energy savings. Only through those than the tactics. Frankly, we will have to tell the combinations do we as a nation state, let alone the rest European Commission that as far as the United Kingdom of the world, have a chance of meeting the sort of is concerned—other countries may also take this view—the targets that we are setting. We on these Benches are 2020 targets are not that significant. However, we can very sceptical about nuclear, but even if you believe in meet them only if we are absolutely clear that we can nuclear it is not the whole answer, if only because it and will make the effort to meet the 2050 targets. provides a completely baseload solution. You also need a variable input. Renewables can be intermittent. 7.13 pm Wind power is certainly intermittent, but the National Lord Teverson: My Lords, I, too, thank my noble Grid has told me that intermittency of up to the low friend Lord Vallance and his committee for this report. 20 per cents is not a great issue in terms of the I do not want to sound as though I am damning it instability of the national grid and the electricity with faint praise, but I found the appendices particularly supply. We are nowhere near that at the moment, useful and will refer to them many times. The one on although by the time we reach the 2020 targets we 167 Energy: Renewables[LORDS] Energy: Renewables 168

[LORD TEVERSON] What lessons come out of this report? I believe it is could be if the other technologies do not come in. It is that renewables are essential and have to be part of the certainly not a reason for stopping investment at the solution, but that we need a number of different moment. renewables than we have at the minute. It will be very tough to meet the 15 per cent target. The whole The big tragedy about renewables is that we are left difficulty has been a lack of research and development, with pretty much only one technology that we can as the noble Lord, Lord Layard, said, in the distant drive forward at present. That is certainly how it past. We need to continue to ramp up that investment. appears to be, although that is more and more disputable We are suffering now from a lack of investment in the in certain ways. There could be all sorts of other areas. past because of low energy prices, particularly the low I particularly congratulate the report and my noble price of oil over the past two decades prior to two or friend Lord Vallance on having stressed the whole three years ago. area of heat, where there is clearly an important need We need to decarbonise our electricity supply because, to increase our renewable technology, and as a proportion ultimately, it gives us not just the electricity proportion of renewable energy as a total. that we have now, but also much greater flexibility. It Earlier today we discussed the possibility of biogas could substitute for transport fuels in the future and going straight into the national grid. To give National other forms of energy consumption. It is relatively Grid plc its due, it referred to it as the “stretch option” portable, or it can be. We need to invest much more in and it is probably about as stretched as elastic could heat technologies. I also believe that we should not ever get. But it shows, under a regime where we decide give up on biofuels, which are increasingly contentious. that these types of measures are necessary, what could That will be a part of the future, not just in second or be achieved. There are other technologies. Unfortunately, third generation, because biogas gives us an opportunity hydroelectric, which would also give some storage to move forward in terms of those fuels. The noble ability in terms of electricity, is somewhere near its Earl, Lord Selborne, spoke about the use of waste oils, capacity, but we also have geothermal, which we have which is very important. Biodiesel can be very effectively talked about, and heat-pump technology. All these produced from those waste products. Can we make have to be a major part of meeting these targets. sure that the fiscal regime works for that? We need research and development, but we need to One of the main problems is diversity and a problem increase our multinational collaboration in this area, that has been mentioned by noble Lords, particularly despite all the difficulties that there might be with at the minute, is the cost of carbon. The report specifically intellectual property and so on. We have to find a way goes through the different types of renewable technology to do that. We need to make sure that we have a much and other energy technologies, and states their cost better indicator of the price of carbon, maybe through per unit of electricity. Clearly, those costs do not take taxation rather than just cap and trade systems. The into account the carbon. Carbon emission is not free. noble Lord, Lord Broers, summed up the whole matter: It is a pollutant and it has to be costed into the price of we have to get on with this agenda. Stern was absolutely any of those technologies. The one technology that it right, although we may have to adjust the figures. But was not able to cost, quite rightly because it has not it is clear that the earlier we find effective solutions to been commercially achieved yet, was that of carbon the problem of emissions, the easier, or less difficult, it capture and storage with coal generation. So we do will be. We need to get on with it, which is why we need not have the complete picture. But looking at these wind power, an existing technology. We certainly need different technologies without a reasonable price of to bring all those others on board to make sure that we carbon gives only a very limited picture. have a full range of instruments to fight this challenge in the future. I would be interested to hear from the Minister how the Government are thinking about the cost of carbon. As my noble friend Lord Redesdale said, we have an 7.26 pm EU ETS sceptic. To a large degree I am much less so, but at the moment it is hard to look at the EU ETS Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, I, too, thank the noble and see how that will help to drive forward investment Lord, Lord Vallance, and members of the Select by commercial businesses in terms of low-carbon Committee on Economic Affairs for its report, The technologies. It is taking away that incentive of a Economics of Renewable Energy. The Clerk and Professor stable carbon price. Probably, this is where the Government Richard Green too should be congratulated on producing rightly disagree with a number of their European such an accessible report on a subject that is still partners. But we have given away all those carbon shrouded in mystery for most people. I would commend permits for free. They have an actual value, so when it to anyone who wants a better understanding of the there is a liquidity crisis in the economy and it looks as renewable energy choices we face, particularly as it is though those permits will not be needed for a considerable written in plain English and was encouraged no doubt time, what does any finance director say? He says, by the long number of years that the noble Lord, Lord “Sell the assets I don’t particularly need or I won’t Vallance, spent in business. His speech was a pleasure need for a long time ahead that have got liquidity to listen to. value. Get those out”. And there will be a fall in the We on these Benches agree with the committee’s carbon price. The knock-on effect would be that all main recommendations to the Government to give a other boards of directors and people looking forward firm lead in low-carbon alternatives to renewable power to investment would not see the right price signals in generation, to emphasise and promote the opportunities terms of future low-carbon technology investment. for renewables, and to consider how to promote more 169 Energy: Renewables[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Energy: Renewables 170 focused research into new effective and economical The committee was not persuaded that advances in ways to reduce carbon emissions. We agree to encourage renewables technology would be made in time to assist research into energy storage with a view to mitigating with the UK’s generating requirements up to 2020. the disadvantage of intermittency in the types of renewable How is the Minister’s department going to respond to generation likely to prevail in the United Kingdom. the recommendation that the Government, as a matter We also agree with reviewing the UK’s research effort of urgency, should encourage more research, development and I agree most strongly with the noble Lord, Lord and demonstration in energy storage technologies? Layard, on this point. As the noble Lord, Lord Vallance, said, the committee’s Overall, my party is more supportive of renewables prime objective in this report was to look at the than this report is, but we are also alive to the risks Government’s wish to reduce carbon emissions, not that are highlighted within it. We recently launched whether or how far it would be necessary to do so. In our low-carbon economy green paper, which sets out this respect, the report has done its job. The Government how we propose to rebuild the British economy on the set out their policy objectives in their 2006 Energy back of the new high-tech green industries, intelligent White Paper, which BERR states are to, energy generation and transport, and energy efficiency “put ourselves on a path to cutting CO2 emissions by some 60% in our homes, schools and businesses. This also is a by about 2050”. very good read. It is written in plain English and I That has since been superseded by their commitment commend it to your Lordships as an exciting read for to an 80 per cent reduction target by 2050 in the the future, although my noble friend Lord Lawson, Climate Change Act 2008. The Government have also my distinguished friend, may be uncertain of that for set out their policy to maintain the reliability of energy himself. suppliers, to promote competitive markets in the UK A lot of interesting questions have been posed from and beyond, thus helping to raise the rate of sustainable all sides of the House in the wake of this splendid economic growth and improve our productivity. Finally, report. My knowledgeable noble friend Lord Jenkin they seek to ensure that every home is adequately and seems to come up with new ideas every time he talks affordably heated. These are fine targets, but I have to about energy and climate change, which is quite amazing, say that they set a high hurdle for the next Government and I have to say that even the noble Lord, Lord to clear. We welcome the report. Teverson, has given me some interesting thoughts for which I thank him. I look forward to the Minister’s answers to the many questions that have been put to 7.34 pm him, and obviously he will write if he cannot answer. The Minister of State, Department of Energy and However, I should like to add my voice to just a few Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food points. and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): My According to BERR, the cost of meeting the new Lords, it is a great privilege to respond on behalf of renewable energy target is estimated at £100 billion. If the Government to this debate. It has been a fine the current downturn only lasts until 2010, we will discussion, and that is because the report itself is have a 10-year period in which to increase renewables excellent. I want to add my tribute to those of other from 5 per cent to 35 per cent, so my question is this: noble Lords to the noble Lord, Lord Vallance, who so will the financing be found by the Government in the brilliantly chaired the committee. I pay tribute also to current climate? Unlike some sources of electricity the other members and, indeed, to their advisers and generation such as wind, which have intermittency clerks. The noble Lord, Lord Chorley, wondered whether issues, there is no such problem with renewable heat. this debate and the Government’s response were cutting The report recommends that the Government should it too fine. All I can say is that normally the Government place at least as much emphasis on encouraging the are chided for taking too long to respond to reports, use and development of renewable heat as on renewable and I think that there is a real advantage in a quick electricity generation, so again I would be interested in response and in holding this debate. As a Government, the steps the Government’s department is taking to we are still in the process of making decisions on our expand the renewable heat sector. renewable energy strategy, and this report is an excellent The technical challenges and costs of back-up example of where I hope the Government, in giving a generation on a scale large enough to balance an robust response, can thus inform the production of electricity system with a high proportion of intermittent the strategy. I should say to the noble Lord, Lord renewable generation are, as we have heard, very high. Vallance, that the strategy is due to be published in the The committee has recommended that the Government spring of this year. I am relatively new to the Department should ensure that further work is carried out to of Energy and Climate Change, which itself is as new clarify the costs and encourage the development of as I am to this brief, so I cannot say what the definition technical solutions to deal with intermittency. What of “spring” is. However, we need and we want to get research is currently being undertaken to look at these on with this, and again the debate is helpful to that problems? The committee also hoped that the work of end. the Energy Technologies Institute will yield technological I agree absolutely with my noble friend Lord Layard advances and lower costs. We join with the noble about the contribution of science and research to Lord, Lord Layard, in all of this. What is the Minister’s these very important matters. The noble Earl, Lord response to the suggestion that the Government should Selborne, was right to press us to engage in the scientific consider offering a substantial annual prize for the arena and ensure that the money we are able to put best contribution to renewable energy development? It into it is as focused as possible. I take his point that seems such a fine idea. given the scale of investment in other countries, along 171 Energy: Renewables[LORDS] Energy: Renewables 172

[LORD HUNT OF KINGS HEATH] Of course we are all concerned about the credit with the comment of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, crunch and the economic situation. Of course we all about international co-operation, we have to make know that at the moment investment decisions and sure that the precious resources we spend on science access to finance are proving very difficult. And of and research are well directed. But there has been course I cannot stand at this Dispatch Box and say progress. The latest figure for UK public sector spending with absolute clarity what I think the long-term impact on energy technology research, development and on renewable investment in particular will be, given demonstration is £151 million. I know that noble the current financial situation. However, just as the Lords will say that we should be spending much more, noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, advocated that young people and I have some sympathy with that view. We should should look at the energy sector as a good place of also acknowledge the work of the research councils in employment in the future—I share his views on that— supporting a very wide range of areas that have the evidence suggests that the fundamentals of the UK potential to develop or improve energy technologies. energy market are good and that there is broad confidence This is the second time I have debated this matter in the package of support we are putting together for with the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, whose essential renewables and the stable regulatory framework that message to us today was to ignore climate change and we have in place. go for coal. I could trade comments from various international organisations on climate change, but I I thought that the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, shall desist doing so today. On the Stern report, he is was right to point out that alongside the undoubted right— pressures we face, a low-carbon economy does not mean a low-growth economy; it can mean many jobs and investment in this country. It is important to take Lord Lawson of Blaby: My Lords, I think that the advantage of that. noble Lord has misinterpreted my position. It is not that we should ignore global warming—if it happens—it The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, must be the world’s is not happening at the moment, but it might, who greatest living expert on the EU emissions trading knows? Unlike the Stern report, I do not know what system and on carbon price. He put his points very will happen in the next 100 years. If it does happen, we clearly indeed. The EU allowance price has seen a shall adapt to it, as mankind has always adapted to considerable drop over the past year, falling from a fluctuations in the temperature of the planet. high of ¤29 to a current low of ¤10. We are all concerned about the impact of reduction in carbon Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I knew that I pricing. However, the noble Lord knows that the EU should not have provoked the noble Lord. The difference ETS cap has been set and will be reduced from 2012 between us is that the Government believe, along with onwards. We expect firms making long-term decisions many distinguished scientists, that we should do everything to do so on the basis of a rise in carbon price as the we can to mitigate the impact of climate change and EU ETS cap will be reduced. We will have to look at adapt to it. I do not disagree with him about that. He these matters very carefully because we want this also made a pretty powerful argument for coal, and I system to work, and to work effectively. should like to come back to that point in a moment. Let me come to the question of wind, which excites I know that the Stern report has come in for criticism, your Lordships’ House. I have discovered that in debates and there is no harm in that. Since decisions have to be on the various Acts that have gone through the House taken in the light of work like the Stern report, it is in the past three or four months. It is true that we are very important that such work is seen to be subject to looking to wind to provide an important proportion robust critique and analysis. But I think that the noble of the renewable energy that we will need to deliver Lord, Lord Teverson, is right to say that whether or over the next 10 or so years. We understand that wind not the figures are exactly right, what is not in doubt is power is intermittent and will require back-up generation that the broad direction in which Stern is pushing us is to smooth the effects of its variable generation. There the right one. is no argument about that. Equally, it is a proven, We have committed ourselves to tough targets: the efficient and, I believe, cost-effective way of generating 80 per cent reduction in greenhouse gases set out in carbon-free power. Although the amount of energy the Climate Change Act which was passed in your produced by renewables at the moment is very small Lordships’ House only a few weeks ago and the target and has to increase considerably over the next 10 years, that we have set within the EU target for 2020. I can even our existing offshore wind farms, where the UK confirm to the noble Lord, Lord Vallance, that the plays a leadership role, generate enough energy to position is still that our proposed share of the EU power more than 340,000 homes. target is 15 per cent. The directive implementing these targets was agreed by the Council in December 2008 I understand the point of the noble Lord, Lord and is expected to receive formal agreement in February Vallance, about the output from wind turbines during 2009. Strictly speaking, we can still call them proposed the recent extended period of low pressure. I accept or likely targets, but we are pretty convinced that they that wind power is a variable resource, but the chances are the targets we will have to achieve. I understand of having no wind generation across the UK why there is some scepticism from noble Lords and in simultaneously are pretty low. In fact, wind turbines the report about whether we will do so. However, I say work around 80 per cent of the time, although not at to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, that we were quite full output. The effects of intermittency can be mitigated clear what we were signing up to as, I think, were other through a range of options, such as geographic dispersion, heads of state. The fact is that we will have to go for it. increasing use of energy storage and back-up generation. 173 Energy: Renewables[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Energy: Renewables 174

As the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, said, National four weeks ago. I echo his comments very much. We Grid has concluded that the costs of 20 per cent wind hope that the passage of the Planning, the Energy and penetration are low. the Climate Change Acts will allow a much more Wind is important but it is not the only element of rational and, I hope, speedier path to making the renewable energy. I am particularly interested in marine decisions that have to be made. He is surely right technology. Other technologies have been mentioned about the contribution that engineers in particular today, such as biomass, biogas, solar heat and heat and scientists in general can make. We are very committed pumps. They all have a contribution to make. Some to doing that. I again echo the point the noble Lord, are nearer to market than others and some need a Lord Jenkin, made about the huge potential for young great deal of support. A range of various government people, and not just young people, to go into the policies and strategies will seek to do that. We are not energy sector. There are an enormous number of jobs relying on wind to deliver the whole target. The estimate with great potential. One of the reasons we have to I have is that biomass for heat and electricity sectors encourage young people to be interested in physics, could provide about 30 per cent of the target. chemistry, engineering subjects and maths subjects is At Questions today we debated the report which because we have to grow people to go into these jobs, looked at the contribution of gasification and biomethane and we wish to do that. to the National Grid. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, As regards the timetable for the national planning described it as a stretching target—actually, it is an statements so that the Infrastructure Planning Commission impossible target. But there is no doubt that the report can get on with its work, I am glad to say that we contains some very important matters that we need to expect to publish draft national policy statements later take forward. Incidentally, it is also a way of providing this year for consultation. They will be subject to income to the farming community. I shall put on my parliamentary scrutiny this autumn. We hope that Defra hat for a moment and say that that is very they will be ready by spring 2010. We know that we welcome. need to get on with this. The noble Earl, Lord Selborne, spoke about waste Coal of course has an important role to play. In oils. The Environment Agency has consulted on a relation to that, we believe that carbon capture and draft protocol; I understand that it is hoping to publish storage has great potential. That is why we are one of a post-consultation draft shortly. If I can find out the first countries committed to supporting commercial some more information, I shall write to the noble Earl. scale demonstration and one of the first countries to I understand the issue, but it is not particularly easy to put in place a national regulatory regime for the resolve. storage of carbon dioxide. This is a very important area for UK plc in terms of what we can do in this country, but also in terms of our export potential from Lord Redesdale: My Lords, when the Minister looks what we learn from the pilot demonstration. into this, perhaps he could impress upon the Environment This has been a very high-quality debate indeed Agency that as a number of companies will go bankrupt and will be very helpful to the Government in terms of in the short term—in the next few months—some our renewable energy strategy. Noble Lords have raised alacrity in coming up with the protocol is necessary. a number of very important matters. I finish by saying that I am well aware that the 2020 targets for renewables Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, that point is are very tough. We face some critical decisions about well taken and I will make sure that the agency is energy in the short, medium and long term. The informed. Department of Energy and Climate Change was created I fully accept the points raised by the noble Lords, to enable government to do that. We are determined to Lord Dixon-Smith and Lord Teverson, about heat do that. and its potential, and the transport sector. All this I again thank the noble Lord, Lord Vallance, for his provides challenges to the grid. The noble Lord, Lord marvellous opening speech tonight, for the excellence Jenkin, raised a number of important points about the of the report that he and his committee have produced, transmission access review. There is no doubt that the and say how much I welcome the opportunity of connection of a significant increase in renewable further debate with noble Lords on matters that are of generation sets an unprecedented challenge for our the utmost importance. electricity networks. We put a package of measures together in last year’s transmission access review, which Lord Vallance of Tummel: My Lords, the cost, will help inform the renewables energy strategy. sustainability and security of supply of energy affects On the question of offshore wind which, again, is a us all. In prosperity or recession, energy is vital to the point well taken, the Department of Energy and Climate economy, to our standard of living and to our well-being. Change and Ofgem are leading a project to put a new That is why the Economic Affairs Committee decided regulatory regime in place. to inquire into the far-reaching changes of the nation’s I understand entirely the points the noble Lord, energy mix implied by the Government’s adherence to Lord Jenkin, raised. These are matters of very urgent the European Union targets for renewable energy. debate. I am very happy again to feed his views in to The House has made it quite clear in the debate that debate. I cannot really say more than that, but I that it too recognises the importance of getting our am very well aware of the issues under discussion now. energy policy right. I am gratified by the degree of We had a very good discussion about the potential interest shown on all sides and by the impressive of nuclear energy. With the noble Lord, Lord Broers, combination of experience and wisdom brought to we took part in a debate on these matters only three or bear by noble Lords in the course of the debate. 175 Energy: Renewables[LORDS] Human Rights: Religious Belief 176

[LORD VALLANCE OF TUMMEL] Islamist extremists. Will Her Majesty’s Government I should like to thank the Minister, both for the urge the Government of Nigeria to fulfil their content and the courtesy of his response. We look constitutional responsibility to protect all their citizens? forward to the emergence of the Government’s renewable In Burma, the SPDC military regime is notorious energy strategy in the spring—may it be an early for its brutal suppression of Buddhist monks and spring. Meanwhile, I take the opportunity once more systematic oppression of non-Buddhists. Rohingya to commend to the House the report of the Economic Muslims are denied citizenship and suffer systematic Affairs Committee. discrimination; mosques and madrassas have been Motion agreed. demolished and, to quote a Rohingya leader, “We are a people at the brink of extermination”. Human Rights: Religious Belief Christians also suffer. Last month more than 100 house Question for Short Debate churches were forced to close, and pastors were threatened with imprisonment, while in the Chin state, Christians have been forced to destroy crosses and churches and 7.55 pm to build Buddhist pagodas in their place. Will Her Tabled By Baroness Cox Majesty’s Government make strong representations to the SPDC concerning religious persecution in Burma To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their today? response to the persecution of religious believers In Sudan, in 1983 the Government’s attempt to in contravention of Article 18 of the Universal introduce Sharia law throughout this religiously diverse Declaration of Human Rights. country led to the outbreak of civil war. Subsequently, the Islamist National Islamic Front regime, the NIF, Baroness Cox: My Lords, 60 years after the signing seized power in 1989 and explicitly declared jihad of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, millions against the predominantly Christian and animist African of people around the world still suffer because of their tribes of southern Sudan and the religiously diverse beliefs and the expression of those beliefs. Article 18 is people of the Nuba Mountains and southern Blue often half-heartedly supported by national Governments, Nile. I visited these war-torn areas 30 times. I witnessed and, at the United Nations, it is one of the least-developed the use by the NIF of aerial bombardment of civilian freedoms in terms of international human rights targets, massacres, torture, rape and scorched earth mechanisms, and is currently being contested through policies, resulting in 2 million dead, 4 million displaced anti-defamation resolutions. and thousands taken into slavery. The subject is so vast that I cannot do justice to it. I In 2005, a comprehensive peace agreement, CPA, am therefore extremely grateful to all noble Lords was signed, but the National Congress Party’s policies speaking in the debate, who will address issues that I in Darfur still include forcible Arabisation of African cannot include. peoples and lands, and the imposition of its extremist Paul Marshall, in the definitive book Religious form of Islam. Will Her Majesty’s Government do Freedom in the World highlights the extent of violations more to impress upon the Government of northern of this freedom. He says: Sudan their responsibility to ensure the safety of all “Some—the Baha’is in Iran, Ahmadis in Pakistan, Buddhists their citizens? in China-Tibet, Falun Gong in China, Christians in Saudi Arabia—are In India, the recent terrorist attack in Mumbai, now among the most intensely persecuted, but there is no group which caused such massive suffering, is widely believed in the world that does not suffer to some degree because of its to have been Islamist-inspired. Previous outbreaks of beliefs. violence include massacres in Gujarat in 2002 when up Atheists and agnostics can also suffer from religious persecution… violations of religious freedom are massive, widespread and, in to 2,000 people, mostly Muslims, perished and, many parts of the world, intensifying”. subsequently, in 2008, attacks on Christians in Orissa state by Hindu fundamentalists with more than 50,000 I briefly highlight a few examples. people displaced, 70 confirmed dead—some burnt I refer, first, to Nigeria, because of the urgency of alive—252 Christian places of worship and some 4,000 the situation there. In Bauchi state the Christian Christians’ homes destroyed. Christians continue to community were attacked last weekend. At least 12 people be threatened with forced conversion to Hinduism if were killed, more than 1,500 were displaced, and they return to their villages. During a visit in October, 14 churches, eight vicarages, one mosque and numerous we met many of the thousands of Christians still Christian homes were destroyed. At least one person living in appalling conditions in overcrowded camps. was killed yesterday, and, with disturbing reports of, Will Her Majesty’s Government urge the Indian “armed men gathering in the bush”, Government to ensure that the state Government bring further attacks are feared. There have been many such to justice those responsible for the violence, provide all outbreaks of orchestrated violence since the introduction help needed to enable people to return to their homes of Sharia law in 12 northern and central states, causing and, in the mean time, ensure adequate health care an estimated 60,000 deaths and much destruction. and food in the camps? Last July I visited a town in Bauchi state where In North Korea, given the obligatory personality eight churches had recently been destroyed. In Kano cult of the political leadership, there has been harsh city, the authorities bulldozed a Roman Catholic Church repression of religion. Buddhist temples and other the week we were there. Last November, Jos suffered a places of worship have been eliminated and defectors series of well-planned and co-ordinated attacks by testify to public executions of Christians and their 177 Human Rights: Religious Belief[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Human Rights: Religious Belief 178 harsh treatment in prison camps, where many perish. which has an entire department dedicated to freedom Three weeks ago, my noble friend Lord Alton and I of religion and belief, the Foreign Office has only one visited North Korea. We concluded that it is better to person in its human rights team responsible for this build bridges than walls and recommended, inter alia, issue, along with other human rights concerns. I therefore that the time has come for the United States to normalise ask the Minister whether Her Majesty’s Government relations with North Korea. We welcomed educational will give serious consideration to responding positively exchanges with Britain. However, we also emphasised to this proposal, perhaps by the appointment of a concerns over human rights violations, including religious special envoy for freedom of religion and belief. persecution. We who have freedom surely have an obligation to We visited the Roman Catholic church in Pyongyang use our freedom on behalf of those who are denied it. and expressed our concern that there is still no Catholic It is my hope that this debate may make some contribution, priest in North Korea. We were slightly more encouraged however small, to highlighting these issues and the by the beautiful new Russian Orthodox cathedral, need to respond more effectively to those suffering for with two priests who had studied in Moscow. We were their beliefs, whatever those beliefs may be. William pleased to see that the Protestant church at Bongsu Wilberforce’s words when introducing legislation to has been enlarged since I worshipped there five years end the slave trade apply to violations of religious ago and that there is now a seminary with 10 students, freedom today: which has academic links to Kim Il-sung University “We can no longer plead ignorance. We cannot turn aside”. and the Academy of Social Sciences, allowing academic exchange between secular and theological institutions. In Egypt, there are serious concerns over human 8.05 pm rights violations of non-Muslims. Muslim converts to Christianity are regularly detained without charges Lord Macdonald of Tradeston: My Lords, I thank and tortured. The Egyptian state continues to prohibit the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, for allowing us this changes in the religion section of national ID cards, opportunity to debate this important issue, and for her with dire consequences for the Baha’is and Muslim- informative if sombre introduction. background Christians with regard to marriage, education The continual violence committed in the name of and even the custody rights of their own children. religion is indeed tragic. So too are the conflicts between Throughout 2007 to 2009, incidents of violence against communities of different faiths, or between different the 10 million-strong Coptic community increased, sects of the same faith. Most recently, Shia and Sunni often resulting in serious injury and material damage. Muslims have clashed in Iraq and Pakistan, Buddhists The historical Abu Fana monastery has been attacked and Muslims in Thailand, Hindus and Buddhists in 15 times since 2004, and those responsible were not Sri Lanka, Muslims and Christians in Africa—as the brought to justice. The Copts are still treated as second- noble Baroness described in such dreadful detail—and, class, or “dhimmi”, citizens, with limited access to of course, in Gaza, Jews and Muslims are at war yet their civic and political rights. Even here, in Britain, again. there is concern over pressures in some communities However, behind the headlines of battles and terror to inhibit freedom to choose and change religion—in bombings, there are countless individual stories of particular, over reported cases of intimidation of British oppression, fear and misery as a result of religious Muslims who wish to leave Islam and/or convert to intolerance. It is to some of these less dramatic issues another faith. that I wish to draw your Lordships’ attention, particularly The final issue that I wish to raise is the worrying the intolerance suffered in many societies by those resolution, adopted by the UN General Assembly for with no religious belief. a fourth consecutive year, entitled “Combating defamation I speak as a humanist, with no hostility to those of religions”. This calls on national Governments to with beliefs in higher powers, a spiritual longing seemingly legislate for the protection of religion from defamation. as old as humanity itself. Indeed, in a previous life as a It is sponsored by the Organisation of the Islamic broadcaster, my experience included responsibility for Conference, and seeks to criminalise any criticism of religious programming, on which I worked amicably Islam, with specific reference to human rights abuses with religious advisers over many years. At present, I and terrorism. It is widely seen as a device to protect am chairman of the Humanist All-Party Parliamentary Islamic states from any criticisms of violations of Group, which has a membership among MPs and human rights. In an interim report, the United Nations Peers of over 100—including, incidentally, a few Christian special rapporteur on freedom of religion and belief and Hindu humanists, as well as many apostates from highlights concerns that: other faiths. “The lack of an objective definition of the term ‘defamation As noble Lords will know, the non-religious now of religions’ makes the whole concept open to abuse”, make up a significant proportion of the UK population. and that, Most of these non-believers lead good and responsible “attempts to protect religions from ‘defamation’ are really seeking lives with commitments to human rights and democracy. to protect religion from critical evaluation and aim to stifle We humanists have a long history of work for a more religious dissent”. open, inclusive, just and tolerant society. Progressive I ask the Minister whether Her Majesty’s Government people of all faiths and none are, of course, natural will continue to resist these proposals. allies in campaigns for social justice, freedom of speech In conclusion, many people argue that freedom of and tolerance of diversity. Given the Minister’s religion and belief should be given greater weight in distinguished service in his previous role with the British foreign policy. Unlike the US State Department, United Nations, he may be pleased to hear that British 179 Human Rights: Religious Belief[LORDS] Human Rights: Religious Belief 180

[LORD MACDONALD OF TRADESTON] 8.11 pm humanists are impressed by the work done by the Lord Bates: My Lords, I also pay tribute to the UN’s special rapporteur on freedom of religion or noble Baroness, Lady Cox, for securing this important belief. debate. She is one of the best examples of a Note the rapporteur’s remit: religion or belief. That parliamentarian who takes these matters very seriously clearly encompasses the belief that there are no gods. and, in the best traditions of Proverbs, speaks up for The UN rapporteur notes that, in many cases, societal the voiceless around the world. Unlike some who pressures mean that the non-religious cannot openly articulate on these issues, she bases her assessments on express their beliefs. There is also concern about official personal experience, having visited many of these very intolerance expressed through policies on education dangerous, repressed places and having heard from and equality, and on blasphemy. While the UK finally people first hand. That adds great credibility to what abolished blasphemy laws last year, sadly, in Pakistan, she does in this area. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, is it is punishable by death. Those who reject religion also active in this area. face particular dangers. These so-called apostates can Faced with such distinguished experience, I considered have marriages annulled and their children taken away. how I could contribute to the debate. I decided to go In many Islamic countries, apostasy is indeed still back to first principles and look again at the UN punishable by death. declaration that we are discussing. Given that it is just The UN rapporteur, Asma Jehangir, has been diligent over 60 years old, it might be worth reconsidering and impartial in the annual reports to the General some of its articles. We are specifically concerned in Assembly, entitled Elimination of all forms of religious this debate with Article 18. It states: intolerance. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, British “Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience humanists have been particularly concerned about the and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or decisions being taken by the UN’s Human Rights belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, Council, which seems increasingly to be dominated by practice, worship and observance”. undemocratic political and religious interests. The HRC Its meaning is pretty explicit. However, Article 18 is recently amended the mandate of the UN’s rapporteur just one measure in the declaration, which has many on freedom of expression to impose serious restrictions supporting clauses. Article 1 states: on “freedom of expression and belief”. This amendment “All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and was imposed by an alliance of Islamic Governments rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should backed, significantly, by China, Russia and Cuba. Can act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood”. the Minister confirm whether our concern is shared by Those are wonderful, exciting aspirations. Anyone the UK Government, and whether they are taking any who has the privilege of visiting the United Nations concerted action with other democratic states to ensure headquarters in New York—the Minister obviously that no state guilty of systematic violations of human has far more experience of this than I—will, like me, rights should serve on the Human Rights Council? be very moved by the wonderful mosaic of Norman Still on the Minister’s patch, the Foreign and Rockwell’s painting “The Golden Rule”, which shows Commonwealth Office has a Freedom of Religion all the nations coming together and the golden rule of Panel, with a membership of more than 60 non- “Do unto others as you would have done unto yourselves”. governmental organisations, including representatives That kind of mutuality was at the core of the Founding of Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist and Christian Fathers’ philosophy. groups. This panel advises the FCO on matters such as Article 2 reads: commemorating the 25th anniversary of the UN’s “Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, Intolerance and Discrimination Based on Religion or colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion”. Belief. “Religion or belief” is the phrase deliberately Article 7 says: crafted to include the non-religious. I am told that “All are equal before the law and are entitled without any there is still no place on this FCO panel for humanist discrimination to equal protection of the law”. organisations that would certainly command much Article 16 says: wider support among British citizens than many minority “Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to religions. We come in peace. Will the Minister encourage race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found the FCO to bring the British Humanist Association a family”. on board? Article 19 says: Tragically, in recent years, violence perpetrated for “Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; supposedly religious reasons has become a major concern this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference”. for many countries. Here in the UK we had our own Article 26 says: sectarian tragedy for 30 years in Northern Ireland. I “Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human readily recognise that many of the conflicts that the rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, men of violence attempt to validate by calling upon tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious their religion are actually based on deeper social, groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for ethnic or economic tensions. That may also be true of the maintenance of peace”. some problems here in Britain. But in attempting to In going through that long list I do not seek to test resolve these social problems I suggest to the Minister, the patience of the House but to indicate that religious and to your Lordships of all faiths and none, that freedom is not an add-on that a bureaucrat has gold-plated British humanists will be your tolerant allies in the into the declaration in the irritating way that we struggle against intolerance of all kinds. sometimes see in other worthy declarations and 181 Human Rights: Religious Belief[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Human Rights: Religious Belief 182 documents. The right to religious conscience is introducing a special envoy to give a real focus to the fundamental to the whole concept of human rights. It efforts of this country in upholding religious freedom is the most sensitive flower in the field of human around the world. Without embarrassing anybody in freedom. When it is trampled, all other freedoms and particular, I would say that there are some worthy all other equalities automatically and consequentially candidates in this Chamber who have proved their go by the board too. We draw so much of what we call eligibility for such a position over many years. human rights from our belief in religious freedom. It Religious freedom is fundamental to many other is critical to underline the importance of that concept. human rights. We have to take it seriously; we should That is implicit in the preamble to the declaration. It not be embarrassed about it but should uphold it states: along with others and build the infrastructure necessary “Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have to make it possible. resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and 8.22 pm want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people, Lord Roberts of Llandudno: My Lords, I appreciate “Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have the opportunity given to us by the noble Baroness, recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, Lady Cox, to discuss this subject again. I also, as the that human rights should be protected by the rule of law”. noble Lord, Lord Macdonald said, come in peace, but That preamble is very important because it reminds us I declare an interest as a Methodist minister so I am that religious freedom is part of the process of preventing not entirely unbiased. conflict. Indeed, much civil conflict has at its root a History is scarred with instances of persecution conflict about religious freedom. Therefore, if one and intolerance. Every generation has looked at others tackles and upholds that, one also improves the possibility and said, “They are different from us, so they are of reducing conflict. Conflict is a major cause of people to be afeared and oppressed”. In New Testament poverty and other forms of oppression. Here we can times—we can go back even further if need be—there be positive about that aspect of human rights. was new teaching in Galilee. That of course met with As if that were not clear enough, in 1981 the opposition. It was a threat to traditional religion and international community came back to the issue with the stability of Roman rule. The Crucifixion can be the Declaration on the Elimination of all Forms of regarded as much as a political act as a religious one. Intolerance and Discrimination based on Religion or It stoked up the hostility of both sections of the Belief, which states: community. It is when there is a mingling of politics and religion that we sometimes get the greatest measure “Considering that religion or belief, for anyone who professes either, is one of the fundamental elements in his conception of life of intolerance and it is often difficult to find who is and that freedom of religion or belief should be fully respected responsible. Was it political or religious first? You have and guaranteed”. to try to fathom where the real truth lies. According to the Guinness Book of Records—I did Some cruelties such as the Inquisition, pograms not research it but saw this information on a website, suffered by Jewish people, direct persecution and the so it needs to be corroborated—the UN declaration is crusades to a large extent were aimed at conversion the most translated document in humanity. Wycliffe from one faith to another or even just to eliminate Bible translators may argue with that, but the UDHR people of another faith, as we know happened in has been translated into 300 different languages. The Hitler’s Germany. We look at that and sometimes have original signatories to that fine declaration included to admit that the church has been unhelpful and the Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Burma and Pakistan. They cause in many ways of wars, disputes and suffering. willingly signed up to it as a core principle that they For that, we all share a great feeling of sadness and a seek to uphold. conviction that this should not have happened. However, The Government need to take that a bit more we cannot say that all wars start with the church. The seriously than they are doing at the moment. That is two major dictators of our time were Stalin and Hitler. not meant personally as I know that the Minister has a One was anti-Semitic and caused the massive Holocaust distinguished track record and I would not want to in Europe. The other was an atheist, and we saw the take away from that. But the Foreign Office sometimes terrible consequences of his atheism in Russia and appears a little embarrassed about religion, especially other parts of Europe. So here we face not religious the Christian faith. The 2007 annual human rights causes, but political, territorial and tribal ones. People report is 216 pages long, but only three pages refer to are trampled and destroyed regardless of any faith religion. Compare that to the declaration. Using the they might or might not hold. Pastor Niemoller—I great search engine now available on pdf’s latest package, will not repeat his whole quotation—instances the if one searches for the word “religion” the first mention destruction of trade unionists, Gypsies and homosexuals in the report is on page 51. The whole front section is as well as Jewish people. Whatever their faith and about policy goals. The Government could do a lot status, they were to be trampled upon and destroyed. more to promote religious freedom. The idea about I remember hearing, some years ago, about the the Council on Religious Freedom, which already Christian Falange invading Lebanon. I felt so ashamed exists, is clearly a good one, but it meets “irregularly”—I until I realised that it was not really a church or a think that was the term used in another place. I am not Christian body at all, but merely a tribal label. Labels sure what irregularly means. Perhaps the Minister can are so often given in an indiscriminate way. I have tell us how often it meets, what its agenda is and how written here, “Politics can give religion a bad name”. its work is being pushed forward. I also like the idea of Personal ambition—the hunger of certain individuals 183 Human Rights: Religious Belief[LORDS] Human Rights: Religious Belief 184

[LORD ROBERTS OF LLANDUDNO] come into conflict. However, that appears not to be for power—and the urge for tribal revenge can also the main point of the debate. I want to draw attention have disastrous results. Some people say that God is to a few issues and suggest a warning. the problem, but I say that it is the people who think Last year I had the privilege at the Lambeth Conference that they are God who are the problem. of sitting at the feet of Samson Das, the Bishop of There are many things that cause these persecutions. Cuttack in Orissa state, who was able to testify at first In The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman hand to the sufferings of the individuals, congregations Empire, Gibbon states that religions are, and institutions in his diocese. The noble Baroness has “all considered by the people equally true, by the philosophers already said enough about the numbers of those involved equally false, and by the magistrates equally useful”. and the details of their sufferings, so I do not need to The label can disguise so much else. repeat any of that now. However, it does of course We are talking not only about the situation as it is, concentrate the mind wonderfully to spend time with but how we can be an instrument of healing. What can those directly involved. we do? Three years ago, I suggested in this Chamber that we should encourage a global federation of faiths, Bishop Das’s description of an appalling situation similar to the United Nations in the political sphere. could, tragically, be told of many parts of the world We would establish an institution to bring together the and in relation to an enormous number of conflicts, in faiths of the world, so that they could discuss their many of which the borderline between religious differences problems and disputes on a permanent basis. I still and cultural or ethnic tensions is not always very easy think that that might be worth considering: it might to distinguish. The very fact of that difficulty suggests not be the answer, but it might be a direction in which that, without in any way trying to minimise those to go. wider issues, we need to identify and acknowledge the particularly religious elements involved in such aggression. We in the UK are a multicultural society. In such a society, we have to come to terms with people who are It would, I suppose, be unrealistic not to mention in different from us. Often we misunderstand and are this debate the situation of Christians in the Holy suspicious; sometimes we are ignorant. I know that a Land and elsewhere in the Middle East. In places forum of faiths in the UK would be something that we where different faiths have coexisted for centuries we in this Parliament could instigate: people of various see the rapid attrition of the Christian church in its faiths being welcomed together on a regular basis. I ancestral homelands. In Iraq, Christians have suffered look around this Chamber and remember that there extreme deprivation, sometimes due to sheer religious was a youth parliament here a year or so ago. The hatred, sometimes just caught in the cross-fire, sometimes Chamber was occupied not by Peers, but by young because, amazingly and quite wrongly, they are regarded people. To establish a forum of faiths in the UK, it as representatives of a western faith. So we cannot would need to be prestigious; something that people disown our own particular responsibility and the pressure could have confidence in and say, “This is held in high on Christians in some parts of the world. regard”. I do not know what the answer would be to Of course, persecution does not always take a violent the suggestion that occasionally this Chamber might form; there are sometimes perfectly legitimate attempts be filled with people of different denominations and to persecute minorities or other people based on legitimate faiths, to give them a boost, and a conviction that this rule of law. Just across the border from Iraq, in is something critical that we are all deeply concerned south-east Turkey, a part of the world that I know about. particularly well, court cases are alleging the theft of By adopting those suggestions, this Parliament land from local villages by monasteries in Tur Abdin and country could give a hands-on lead to global which have stood there since the late fourth century. understanding. I am certain that other countries would There is a certain degree of ridiculousness about some welcome our initiative. It could be part of Britain’s of this, but that does actually affect the sufferings of enhanced role in the 21st century. those Syriac villagers and others who are suffering so greatly. 8.28 pm The last issue I want to draw attention to is closer The Lord Bishop of Chichester: My Lords, I, too, to home and also reinforces the point that not all thank the noble Baroness, not only for securing the persecution is necessarily bloody. The suspension of debate, but also for her distinguished tenacity in this Caroline Petrie, a community nurse, for offering to matter over many years. pray with a patient, not surprisingly led to incredulity. One striking feature of Article 18 of the Universal But as well as incredulity this was also an occasion for Declaration of Human Rights is the indivisibility of some interesting examples of social cohesion. A this right to freedom. It follows that those who profess spokesman for a local Muslim forum in Sussex, in my a particular faith may not claim a right that does not own diocese, observed: apply to others, and also that those whose beliefs are “This is crazy. These people need their heads testing. Someone commonly described as “religious” may not claim a from the goodness of their heart does a good deed and people right that does not apply equally to those who disown punish her … We should make every effort to bring peace, religious faith—I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord calmness and above all hope to our patients. This is a christian MacDonald, for what he said about that—and vice country and a majority of the patients believe in God. This was a versa. kind and charitable gesture and we should praise the nurse”. Obviously, no freedoms can be unlimited, and it End of Muslim quote. It is a welcome sign of how may be that one of the more interesting background faith communities can hold together in the face of a questions to this debate is what happens when freedoms growing hostility to faith. One might even say, if one 185 Human Rights: Religious Belief[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Human Rights: Religious Belief 186 wanted to be naughty, that it is a sign of diversity and analysts believe that the north might do this to assess equality in action. Of course I welcome Mrs Petrie’s the resolve of President Barack Obama. There are, reported return to work. perhaps, echoes here of the 1962 Cuban missile crisis, I finish by drawing attention to one particular which tested another new American president, John F. aspect of the situation which is addressed directly by Kennedy. the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and I am Although Hillary Clinton did not go to North very grateful to the noble Lord who quoted Article 18 Korea last week, America’s new Secretary of State in its entirety. The right upheld in Article 18 is not only visited the region to assess the situation for herself. In about freedom of faith and freedom to change one’s advance of Mrs Clinton’s regional sweep, North Korea’s faith, it is also about the right to hold and practise ceremonial head of state, Kim Yong Nam—whom my one’s faith in public. This freedom is curtailed not just noble friend and I met when we first visited North by communal hostility but, in many cases, by public Korea five years ago—said that North Korea is ready authorities in many parts of the world today. I hope to, that Her Majesty’s Government will take strenuous “develop relations with countries that are friendly toward us”. steps to make sure that that does not happen here. This view was confirmed to us throughout our visit by senior officials in the DPRK. The American State 8.34 pm Department would do well to recognise the significance Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, as my noble of these remarks. A decade ago Her Majesty’s Government friend Lady Cox mentioned in her opening speech, established a diplomatic mission in Pyongyang. I pay three weeks ago we travelled together to North Korea. particular tribute to our ambassador Peter Hughes I declare a non-pecuniary interest as chairman of the and his admirable staff, who do a magnificent job. It is All-Party British-North Korea Parliamentary Group. time for the Americans to do the same. William Perry, In supporting the many specific points that she has a former US Secretary of State for Defence, said made today, especially the desirability of the appointment in 2003: of a special envoy with a mandate to uphold the right “We should never negotiate from fear, but we should never to freedom of belief enshrined in Article 18 of the UN fear to negotiate”. declaration of human rights, I want to use my time I first became interested in North Korea after I met today to reinforce her observations about North Korea. Yoo Sang-joon, a North Korean Christian who had Five years ago, after our first visit, my noble friend escaped from the DPRK and whom I met here at and I established the all-party group. Since then we Westminster. His story was harrowing and disturbing. have held numerous witness sessions, where we have He described how he had seen his wife and all but one heard first-hand accounts from escapees. We initiated of his children shot dead by Kim Jong-Il’s militia. He what we described as a process of constructive critical subsequently escaped across the border to China with engagement, and argued that the six-party talks aimed his one remaining son. The boy died en route. Yoo at resolving security questions also needed simultaneously Sang-joon became an Asian Raoul Wallenberg, the to engage North Korea on human rights and Swedish diplomat who saved thousands of Jewish lives humanitarian issues. It is a country where, the UN during the Holocaust. Yoo Sang-joon bravely re-entered special rapporteur, Professor Vitit Muntarbhorn, estimates, North Korea and helped many people to flee across 400,000 people have been killed by the regime and the border. This led to his arrest in China in 2007. As a 200,000 people are currently detained in prison camps, result of international pressure, the Chinese, I am glad many because of their religious beliefs. to say, agreed to repatriate him to Seoul, rather than to Critical engagement in confronting human rights the north where he would have been executed. abuses was the approach used in eastern Europe after I would be interested to hear from the Minister the passing of the Helsinki Final Act in 1975. That whether we raised the continued repatriation of North led, in turn, to the creation of Andrei Sakharov’s Koreans in the recent UK-Chinese dialogue on human Moscow Helsinki Group. Anatoly Dobrynin said: rights. If we continue to repatriate, we should be clear “The Helsinki Accords gradually became a manifesto of the about the consequences for those who are returned to dissident and liberal movement … people who lived under these North Korea. Among the witnesses who have given systems—at least the more courageous—could claim official permission to say what they thought”. evidence at our sessions in the Moses Room over the last few years was Jeon Young-Ok, who was aged 40. In the report of our most recent visit, Carpe Diem— She said: Seizing the Moment for Change in North Korea, which will be published on Thursday and a copy of which I “I was put in a camp where I saw and experienced unimaginable will place in the Library, my noble friend and I argue things … The women were forced to strip. A group of us were thrown just one blanket and we were forced to pull it from one that we now need “Helsinki with a Korean face” and another as we tried to hide our shame … I didn’t want to live. that there is an historic opportunity to end the technical They tortured the Christians the most. They were denied food state of war that still exists between North Korea and and sleep. They were forced to stick out their tongues and iron the United States. That, in turn, could usher in an era was pushed into it”. of more fundamental change, especially the promotion During our visit to North Korea, my noble friend of religious and political freedom. and I continually raised the case of 26-year-old Shin Our visit was timely because there has been a recent Dong-Hyok, who spent the first 23 years of his life in deterioration in relations between South Korea and North Korea’s political prison camp 14, where he was North Korea. The north has been threatening to launch born. In his Moses Room evidence, he described how a new Taepodong-2 missile, which is said to have the he saw his mother and brother executed, and was ability to reach the coast of the United States. Some himself tortured. Twelve days ago, I felt privileged to 187 Human Rights: Religious Belief[LORDS] Human Rights: Religious Belief 188

[LORD ALTON OF LIVERPOOL] 8.42 pm share a platform with him at South Korea’s National Assembly. Cases such as these should be raised at Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, the noble every opportunity and should not be eclipsed by security Baroness, Lady Cox, in opening the debate, gave a issues. long list of examples of religious persecution, discrimination and disadvantage, and the list could Although, as my noble friend has said, we saw some have been a great deal longer. I was talking to an glimmers of hope during our visit, there is still a long Israeli diplomat this morning, who reminded me that way to travel in permitting freedom of expression, part of the reason for the rise of Avigdor Lieberman’s belief and worship. What does North Korea lose as a party is that there is no such institution as civil marriage consequence? By denying pastoral access to the Catholic in Israel. You can have a Muslim marriage or a Jewish Church—no priest has been allowed in for 55 years—the marriage, but if you want to have a civil marriage you DPRK is preventing the Korean Church from providing must leave Israel and come back with a certificate help, development investment, and support for the from another country. poor and needy, which has led to phenomenal social Many of us will remember the battle in Greece only provision in the South. Religious freedom leads to a few years ago about whether you could not have an voluntary social endeavour on a huge scale. But, of ID card which listed your religion. We ourselves have a course, dictatorships tend to be fearful of those institutions history of discrimination that is not so ancient. Not so that they cannot control. long ago, I attended the wedding, in northern Denmark, Last week, Korean Catholics were mourning the between a Dane and an Italian, one of whom was one death of their first cardinal, Stephen Kim Sou-hwan. of my former students. The fuss we had over the During the 1970s and 1980s, when South Korea was a potential presence of a Roman Catholic priest in a military dictatorship, Cardinal Kim became known as Lutheran church at the beginning of the 21st century an outspoken defender of human rights. He literally showed that there are still many shadows of the past, refused to allow troops to seize pro-democracy students even in our supposedly tolerant European society. We sheltering in his Myeongdong Cathedral in Seoul. recognise that we are not talking simply about Former President Kim Dae-jung, a holder of the discrimination by one religion against another, but Nobel Peace Prize, said that Kim’s had been a voice in discrimination by the orthodox against those whom the wilderness, they regard as heretics within each faith; against Ahmadiyya, Alevis and Shias within Islam and against “for our people groaning under dictatorship”. particular forms of Protestantism or Catholicism in United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon, who different countries. is a South Korean national, called him, The noble Baroness, Lady Cox, emphasised the importance of religious dissent. That is what we should “the conscience of an era”. be hanging on to. We support the principle of dissent, The Korean Church has been steeped in suffering. religious and political, and I hope we all accept that Pope John Paul II described it as, religious freedom does not exist alone in a society. British history shows that religious freedom is only “a community unique in the history of the Church”. possible in a political system and a society in which wider freedoms of thought and of expression, political It is unique because the Korean Church was not expression in particular, are allowed. I declare an founded by missionaries. In the eighteenth century, interest as an Anglican brought up in the middle of some young Korean intellectuals encountered Christianity the Church of England, much influenced by Bishop in China and brought their faith back to Korea. As the John Robinson, John Habgood and others, with doubting church was planted, between 8,000 and 10,000 martyrs Thomas as my favourite saint and that wonderful died, so Korean Christians are no strangers to suffering. expression from the Epistles: This story is brilliantly documented by the former Anglican Bishop of Korea, Canon Richard Rutt, in “For now we see as through a glass darkly”. his Catholic Truth Society pamphlet The Martyrs of I assumed naively as a child that the Anglican principle Korea. was that we could none of us be entirely sure what God thought on anything so we had better not insist Cardinal Nicholas Cheong, who now leads the on laying down the rule too tightly towards others. I Korean Church, told me during talks in Seoul that he have since discovered that there are plenty of people in remains ready and willing to devote resources and the Anglican Church who still want to lay down the personnel to help the north. I hope that, as a harbinger law on others and who use quite ancient prejudices of the reunification of the Korean peninsula, which against women in the chancel, for example, to express must surely come, we will see the silent dioceses of the their reactionary views through religion. north given voices once more. What better signal could the north give to the world that it wants peace, I was interested and slightly shocked to read William security and a prosperous future? It would also be a Dalrymple’s The Last Mughal two or three years ago significant move in the direction of Article 18 of the and the extent to which it was an aggressive Anglican Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which attempt to convert the Muslims of Delhi that did a guarantees freedom of belief for all. great deal to provoke the Indian mutiny in reaction to Christian intolerant evangelism. What should our response As always, all of us in this House remain indebted be? As a Liberal Christian, I naturally emphasise to my noble friend for giving us the opportunity to tolerance and acceptance of dialogue within our shared debate these issues today. condition of human uncertainty. We should preach 189 Human Rights: Religious Belief[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Human Rights: Religious Belief 190 tolerance, practise tolerance, expect tolerance from its constitution, that such a strongly religious dimension others and oppose fundamentalism in all religions of its foreign policy should have been pursued by the including our own. last Republican Administration, whereas Britain, with We should also recognise how often religion has the established Church, has recently been a good deal been used and is still used as a cover for other aims—racial, more secular. I celebrate our more mature acceptance tribal and political. The Chinese Communist Party in this country. We are a nation of religious diversity has this desperate fear of any autonomous communities, and of political tolerance. We talk now about Britain’s of all forms of free thinking, which thus leads to the churches and Britain’s faiths. persecution, not just of Catholics, Baptists and Buddhists, As a boy, I sang at the Coronation in 1953, which but also of the Falun Gong—anything which sets up was an extensively and exclusively Protestant affair. as an autonomous group within the state. Population The only non-Church of England priest to take part in pressures in Africa, Indonesia and elsewhere also foment the service was the Moderator of the Church of Scotland. what appears to be religious conflict. That is partly Fifty years later, at the anniversary service, the Cardinal what is happening in Nigeria, where the doubling and Archbishop of Westminster read the first lesson and I trebling of populations leads to people choosing which could see the Orthodox Archbishop standing beside out-group they fight against. Sadly, that has been true him, alongside a representative of the Salvation Army. in central Africa and there is clearly also an element of Under the lantern, listening to them, were representatives it in Sudan. In Indonesia, where there has been Christian of what the service programme called “Britain’s other violence against Muslims, that has partly been local faiths”: Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Baha’i, Buddhist, Christians against Muslim immigrants being settled in Zoroastrian and Jain. If noble Lords ask me to define their islands. the main tenets of the Jain faith, I am not sure I could The fundamentalism of the Vatican on the issue of do that very well. The British task is to defend and to population growth has not helped in this regard. I promote freedom of belief throughout the world, of regard the coalition between the Vatican and political and religious belief and of dissent in all its fundamentalist Muslim countries at the last UN forms. population conference as one of the more shameful aspects of organised Christian religion that we have 8.52 pm seen in recent years and I worry that there is some tendency in the Vatican at present to a retreat towards Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I too thank the what can only be described as Christian fundamentalism. noble Baroness, Lady Cox, for giving the House the I agree with my noble friend Lord Roberts of opportunity to debate this important matter. I want to Llandudno that political and religious persecution go reiterate what my noble friend Lord Bates and the together, but hatred of outsiders, the persecution of right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chichester said scapegoat minorities, the extent to which we choose to about the important, sometimes dangerous work define how everyone else should believe—the “we” undertaken by the noble Baroness in this area. I include being those in power—is clearly something against in that the noble Lord, Lord Alton, particularly for which we all have to fight. I know this is an extremely the incredible work he has done to try to improve sensitive issue at present but there are those such as matters for the poor, suffering people living in North Geert Wilders in the Netherlands who express as Korea. religious motivation what seems to many of us to be As the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, said, the range of racial hatred. religious freedom and freedom of belief is so vast that If, for a couple of months, I were to pick bits out of it is difficult to do justice to them all. Together with the Bible—the Book of Revelations and the Old Testament other noble Lords she has given some appalling examples together—to demonstrate that Christianity is an intolerant which clearly show that the problem of religious religion, I could probably make a 17-minute film which persecution is very much in existence. The noble Lord, would be fairly persuasive. We can pick and choose Lord MacDonald, as a distinguished humanist, gave but, if we are to promote tolerance, we have to behave the House examples of problems faced by those with responsibly within our own traditions of religion. no religious belief. I oppose the singling out of religion from other Religious persecution can be seen in many different forms of persecution of belief, whether political or walks of life; it is a long way from a nurse’s offer to secular, and I mistrust the motivation of the Bush pray for a patient to the question of how to ensure the Administration, which set up a separate department safety of the Jewish community in Britain, but both on religious discrimination within the State Department. cases are rooted in questions of how faith and daily I do not support such a proposal. Having spent some life should interact. Article 18 of the Universal Declaration years in the United States as a young man, I am of Human Rights protects the individual’s right to conscious of the anti-Catholic and anti-Semitic groups freedom of religion and religious practice. But there of Protestant fundamentalism in the United States are other articles: protecting the freedom of expression, and indeed of the anti-rationalist and the anti-modernist and the right to be protected from attacks on one’s groups of Protestant fundamentalism. I rejoice that honour and reputation, for example. that sort of reactionary fundamentalism now appears Finding a path through the multitude of rights and to be on the decline again within much of the United responsibilities, some conflicting and all liable to a States. multiplicity of definitions, is not easy, but as hard as it For similar reasons, I question the appointment of is to lay out a clear set of limits as to how far each a British special envoy. It is, of course, a paradox in right can be taken, it is not hard to see when such the United States, a state which is secular according to limits have been drawn incorrectly. One of the great 191 Human Rights: Religious Belief[LORDS] Human Rights: Religious Belief 192

[LORD ASTOR OF HEVER] going to bear personal witness to issues of religious dangers of defining religious rights is inconsistency. It discrimination and the oppression of religious freedom is unsurprising that the feeling that some faiths are around the world. In doing that, she is very much part more liable to persecution than others, whether justified of a British tradition with that great concern for or not, has grown when the Government have failed to religious freedom that has, for many centuries, preoccupied apply their own legislation consistently. us as a country here and abroad. Nowhere is this clearer than in the recent Geert During the Lambeth Conference organised last year Wilders case. Freedom of religion should not be used by the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of as a shield for those wishing to spread hatred and Canterbury, I recall being privileged to lunch with an intolerance. We support the denial of entry to those extraordinary group of religious leaders—including who do so, but what credibility can this Government the Archbishop of Sudan, the Bishop of Colombo, Sri claim in this matter when a Dutch MP is banned, but Lanka, and bishops covering north and southern those who publicly proclaim anti-Semitism, homophobia Africa—and to hear their extraordinary stories of and suicide attacks continue to enter or remain in this maintaining the freedom of all their congregations country? Can the Minister inform the House whether against threats that were political, economic and social the Government have learnt anything from recent in character. They were convinced of the need not just events? It is clear that these decisions are made very to protect the freedoms of their own congregations much on a case-by-case basis with a great deal of but those of other religions, understanding that only confusion surrounding the criteria on which the final when all religions are free is any religion free. judgment rests. Like the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, I must identify Religious persecution, of course, goes beyond high- myself as a liberal Anglican, and in that sense I, too, profile banning orders. It is sadly part of the day-to-day perhaps put the greatest value on that ultimate sense life of many and, according to the Home Secretary, is of Britain as a nation of dissenters. I suppose that that set to affect many more as the recession starts to bite. also allows me to identify with the Methodists and Certain communities are already suffering from others here. In that sense, we cannot be entirely blind disproportionate economic disadvantages, which can to problems in our own society. This, after all, is an old only get worse as unemployment figures rise. As economic issue: I said to my 12 year-old son today that I would isolation grows, so too does cultural isolation, further be debating religious freedom tonight. He is at the increasing the possibility of religiously motivated attacks Oratory, a Catholic boys’ school in London where, he as links between different communities break down. immediately told me, they were all signing a petition at The isolation of many communities in this country is a present on why a Catholic could not marry a monarch. problem that can and should be addressed but, instead, We all still have traces in our societies of such issues the Government’s refusal to address long-running social to address. However, there has been a bipartisan and cultural problems for fear of causing offence has commitment over many years that this Government exacerbated it. To allow divisive and harmful cultural seek to pursue the promotion of religious freedom practices to continue because of claims that they are and belief—or the right not to believe, as we heard somehow fundamental to a religion is to misapply earlier—with all the tools that we have. This includes Article 18 in the most dangerous way. Religious freedoms both our bilateral activities and our efforts to ensure should never be allowed to be used as an excuse to that religion and belief remain high on multilateral perpetuate the inequality of women or the practice of agendas. As Ministers, we raise the issue when we democracy; the Government should instead be seeking travel to countries of concern and with visitors from to encourage social cohesion and a broad acceptance those countries when they see us here. That includes, of the civic values that underlie this country. for example, the many countries which still penalise In the mean time, more must be done to protect blasphemy and use that offence to harass religious those particularly at threat from religiously motivated minorities; in some jurisdictions, the punishment for it attacks. Recent events in Israel and Gaza have led to a still involves corporal punishment or even the death sharp increase in the number of anti-Semitic incidents. penalty. That can never be condoned. The Foreign I look forward to hearing from the Minister the Office is producing guidelines for our posts on how to Government’s response to the recommendations made promote freedom of religion or belief, and to combat in the report to the all-party inquiry into anti-Semitism. violations of it. Those will be published in March. Contributions to this debate have accepted that Multilaterally—and I stress that it is so often there is a problem with religious persecution that is multilateral channels that offer us a much more forceful not fading away. The Government must do more not way to make our case—we, together with our EU only to ensure that their actions do not spark resentment partners, are making full use of the new universal of unfair treatment but to protect the public from periodic review mechanism at the Human Rights Council those who encourage religious hatred. in Geneva to raise the issues of religious freedom. That is one of the few public fora where we can engage 8.59 pm with countries that otherwise are reluctant to engage. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth So, when the DPRK is examined in December, we will Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): My Lords, let me join raise those issues. In that case, we have concerning those of your Lordships who have spoken this evening evidence about the persecution of believers in those in thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, not just for Potemkin-like churches in Pyongyang. We also maintain bringing this subject before us, but for her lifetime regular dialogue with representatives of religious groups commitment as an advocate of these issues—and a whose members frequently suffer violations of their frequent traveller of astonishing proportions in directly rights, such as the Baha’is, the Ahmadiyyas, the Jehovah’s 193 Human Rights: Religious Belief[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Human Rights: Religious Belief 194

Witnesses and other Christian groups. We encourage will continue to press our concerns about what happened NGOs and others to draw violations to our attention, in Orissa. I have raised this issue directly with the high and we have a stakeholder group on freedom of religion commissioner here and with officials in India. that meets FCO officials to enhance co-operation in Equally, in the case of Egypt, former Minister Kim this work. Howells raised the issue of religious freedom directly I turn to the points that have been raised tonight. with the Speaker of the Egyptian Parliament about a Apostasy is a difficult issue, especially when it concerns year ago. On 11 March last year, our embassy in Cairo Islam, as several Islamic countries prohibit and punish met the Egyptian Deputy Minister for Human Rights, apostasy. In some countries, it is even punishable by and again there was a discussion of the freedom of death. In others, apostates are charged with other religion and Egypt’s wider commitment under these offences such as blasphemy, defaming Islam or insulting conventions. their country. However, this does not deter us from As regards the DPRK, North Korea, there is no making representations to promote the freedom of freedom of religion. While I am delighted to hear perhaps individuals to change their religion, nor from promoting the first green shoot—a term that a politician uses Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human carefully—of some freedom, when it comes to the Rights, which has been quoted tonight and is a formidable orthodox church, our view remains that those churches article of an extraordinary document. We strongly are primarily limited showcases for outsiders and that believe that people have the right to practise their nothing close to freedom of religion is operating across beliefs as well as to change their religion if they so the country as a whole. We will work closely with NGOs, wish. Some of the countries in which we have made including Christian NGOs, in the run-up to the Human this case are Eritrea, China, Mauritania, Lebanon, Rights Council review of the DPRK this year. Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Libya, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Let me say to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, that we Iran, Malaysia, Nigeria and Pakistan, among others. perhaps do not lobby as specifically on religious The noble Baroness, Lady Cox, talked about Nigeria. persecution as we should. Our main concerns have In Nigeria’s recent universal periodic review, the UK been the use of labour camps, torture, the absence of raised the issue of economic, social and cultural rights. any freedom of speech and certainly the absence of We also recommended that Nigeria should take further any right to organise or to come together as groups of steps to address discrimination against minority and any kind in North Korea. I acknowledge that the 2008 vulnerable groups. Last week, I met a remarkable EU-sponsored UN General Assembly resolution on Muslim leader from northern Nigeria, the Sultan of human rights specifically mentioned freedom of religion. Sokoto, who agreed with me, and indeed volunteered Recently, we lobbied on human rights more generally the point, that those who are responsible for the when the director of our Asia-specific department met intercommunal violence last year needed to be held to a delegation here of the Workers’ Party of Korea. We account and brought to justice, and that only if that raised religious freedoms during the visit of that delegation. sort of impunity was brought to an end would these On China and returnees to North Korea, we are as problems be resolved. concerned as the noble Lord about the status of North The noble Baroness, Lady Cox, also raised the case Korean border crossers to China. We raised that issue of Burma. I reassure her that our ambassador in most recently at the UK-China human rights dialogue Rangoon frequently presses the Burmese authorities in January of this year. to end human rights abuses. We condemn the We are all aware that the defamation of religions, marginalisation or persecution of any community based which has come up in several forms, is difficult. We on its religious beliefs. Although it makes the abuses have to find our way, because, as we saw just recently no less serious, the persecution of religious minority with the visit of the Dutch MP, who has been referred groups by the Burmese authorities is often based in to, we must protect a person’s right to criticise the reality on their ethnicity and a perceived threat to religion of other people, but we have to take care when security rather than solely on their faith. it crosses the barrier, not any more into freedom of speech, but to incitement of violence and a potential Sudan was also mentioned. We have reminded the racial prejudice. Since July 2005, 270 people have been Government of Sudan of their responsibility to maintain excluded from entering the UK on the suspicion of order, to protect the deployment of UNAMID, which being a threat to national security or of fostering is so important in Darfur, and to allow full access for extremism. There is a clear test—the incitement test— humanitarian assistance. More critically, we must ensure which the Home Secretary uses in making that the effective implementation of the north-south agreement, determination. It is notable that a Dutch court has the CPA, because it was from that agreement that the recently ordered that Mr Wilders should be prosecuted release of those in the south from the violent persecution for making statements about Muslims. of those in the north finally came. Ensuring that the steps laid out in that agreement are fully honoured In closing, perhaps I may say that the duty of this and lead to elections and a referendum that allows the Chamber and the role that this Chamber can play goes people of the south to choose whether they wish to much broader than the UK alone. A debate like this is remain in Sudan is the critical political track to solving heard everywhere around the world by those religious this issue. minorities who feel oppressed and feel that their case has been forgotten. To everyone who has participated As to India, the noble Baroness will be aware that tonight, let us hope that we have lit one more candle in through the EU delegation, which visited Orissa state this long quest for religious freedom for all. in December, and through the EU-India human rights dialogue, which will take place later this month, we House adjourned at 9.14 pm.

GC 55 Local Democracy[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Local Democracy GC 56

approve a leaders’ board for whatever reason—perhaps Grand Committee over a disagreement on whether a particular leaders’ board would meet his or her chosen targets—then it Tuesday, 24 February 2009. would be as if the leaders’ board were entirely irrelevant. I cannot understand why the noble Baroness is content Local Democracy, Economic Development to allow such a glaring loophole to go unchecked in the Bill. Subsection (2) openly provides for a democratic and Construction Bill [HL] deficit to carry on for as long as the Secretary of State Committee (7th Day) sees fit. What is to stop the RDA during this time pushing through plans to revise a regional strategy, 3.30 pm which will then never be scrutinised by the elected accountable members of a leaders’ board? The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Brougham and Vaux): Good afternoon and welcome to our seventh It is clear that there are many parts of the Bill that sitting. There will not be any Divisions in the Chamber we are unhappy with, but I hope that the noble Baroness so we will have a clear run. will agree that Amendment 172B would improve the democratic accountability of the provisions. I do not think that it is satisfactory for the Secretary of State to Clause 67 : Responsible regional authorities be able, in effect, to circumvent what democratic checks there are in this part. I hope that the noble Baroness will take away this issue at this stage to consider it Amendment 172B further. I beg to move. Moved by Baroness Warsi 172B: Clause 67, page 45, line 39, leave out subsection (2) Baroness Hamwee: This is the seventh day but we are not resting. My Amendment 173A builds on what the noble Baroness has just said. I am aware that Baroness Warsi: This amendment, it might be said, rather discreetly—almost coyly—the Bill abolishes regional is a precautionary amendment. I am concerned about chambers. That is tucked away in a schedule, but then the implications of Clause 67(2), because it might we knew that it was coming. However, there should be mean more than first meets the eye. justification on the record in Parliament as to why the Clause 67 describes what is to be classed as the Government have taken this decision. The regional responsible regional authorities; that is, the RDA and chambers are a democratic, albeit imperfect, contribution the leaders’ board, which subsection (1) makes clear to the regional arrangements that we have now, and will act jointly. However, subsection (2) says that in the the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, is right to say that, if event that there is no leaders’ board, because it either there is no leaders’ board, there will be no democratic has been disbanded or has yet to be established, the input because we will have lost the regional assemblies—or responsible authority will be the regional development chambers, as they are known statutorily—in the course authority alone. The amendment would remove that of passing this Bill. possibility, meaning that there could be a responsible My Amendment 182D is consequential on that and regional authority only if both the RDA and the I am not intending to speak to Amendment 182CA. leaders’ board were established. In so far as it does that, I hope that the Minister will agree that it would strengthen the position of leaders’ boards, as set out in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, subsection (1), to act jointly as the responsible regional Department for Communities and Local Government authority. (Baroness Andrews): It is nice to be back after having had a break. The amendments that we are considering Clause 66, which allows leaders’ boards to be relate to Clause 67, which provides for the regional established, does not allow them to be established development agency, the RDA, and the leaders’ board easily or even at all. Everything must be approved by for a region to act as the responsible regional authorities the Secretary of State: the Secretary of State holds the in relation to the revision of a regional strategy. Very purse strings and the Secretary of State can bring the sensibly, it provides that, where there is no leaders’ whole thing to a sudden end if she does not think that board in a region, the RDA should act as the responsible the scheme is working to her satisfaction. In such a regional authority, and this is obviously where the scenario, that would simply leave the RDA as the sole amendment is positioned. regional authority. In short, Amendment 172B proposed by the noble I know that the Government do not share my Baroness, Lady Warsi, begs the question of who should scepticism about RDAs being the most appropriate or act as the responsible regional authority is there is no effective bodies for facilitating local development, but leaders’ board in a region. The noble Baroness argued even the Minister must accept that this provision, that the RDA should not be given sole responsibility which would simply allow the RDAs to carry on as if for the review and revision of the regional strategy, the leaders’ board had never been dreamt up, makes a even where local authorities have failed to agree a mockery of the Bill’s stated aim of handing power suitable form for a leaders’ board. She spoke about the back to local people. Bill, in this sense, having created a loophole, but the Subsection (2) appears to be open-ended, and the loophole is in fact the amendment, which fails to offer RDA could carry on acting as a responsible regional an alternative arrangement where no leaders’ board is authority indefinitely. If a future Secretary of State, in place. Here, in short, we are looking at an administrative not as conscientious as the present one, were to fail to and decision-making vacuum. GC 57 Local Democracy[LORDS] Local Democracy GC 58

[BARONESS ANDREWS] finding a way to explore something. We all know that The Bill obviously defines responsible regional we have a great deal of work to get through today and authorities as being the RDA and the leaders’ board I, for one, do not want to get into a head-to-head of the region, but it must provide for the eventuality position. We are trying to explore the Government’s that no leaders’ board is in place. This is an extremely thinking and, without wishing to be too aggressive in unlikely proposition. Leaders’boards have been welcomed the way I put it, I hope I can make that clear right as a positive way forward. Leaders in local government from the start. are already putting them in place; five are on their way to fruition and the process is well on the road. The Baroness Andrews: I am absolutely of the same different forms that regional partners are choosing to opinion. We have got a lot of work to do today but we adapt are evidence of the flexibility in the arrangements shall do it in the way we always have in championing that the legislation allows. There is every incentive in local government, housing and planning legislation. the world for local authorities to work together to We shall get to the heart of the issues in the best establish a mutually acceptable leaders’ board in order possible way. that they may play their full role in the regional strategy process. Baroness Warsi: I thank the Minister for her response. The noble Baroness suggested that what she seeks I am a little disappointed and I still have concerns to put in place would improve democratic accountability about how things could fall between the cracks in but the amendment could increase the likelihood of situations where leaders’ boards are not set up or the Secretary of State involvement if there was a vacuum. capacity does not exist for them to be set up. We shall That would be very perverse when so much of our look at this matter again before Report and we may debate has focused on where the Secretary of State’s well return to it then. I agree with the noble Baroness’s powers should rightly lie. We have been consistently comments that today we should try to get to the heart clear that the reserve powers are intended as a back of the debate and that it would be good to make up, to be used only in exceptional circumstances. By progress. At this stage, I beg leave to withdraw the weakening the joint arrangements, the amendment amendment. risks bringing in the Secretary of State to ensure that a revision takes place where there is no leaders’ board. It Amendment 172B withdrawn. is therefore obvious that I cannot accept the amendment. The amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Amendment 173 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled Lady Hamwee, are similarly concerned with the default List. position of the RDA but offer a different solution. They propose that if there is no leaders’ board for a Amendment 173A not moved. region then the responsible regional authority for the region would be the RDA and the regional chamber Clause 67 agreed. designated by the Secretary of State under Section 8 of the RDA Act, which would be retained. Many of the Amendment 173B not moved. arguments I have just put apply equally to these amendments. However, they also have their own 3.45 pm drawbacks. They would involve the retention of a regional chamber, but it is not clear whether this means retaining or reconvening the regional assembly Clause 68 : Review and revision by responsible regional in regions such as the north-west. authorities The Government’s position is clear: we do not want to retain the regional assembly. What we need now is Amendment 174 democratic accountability in which local authorities Moved by Baroness Warsi are much more closely involved in making the regional strategy. We are retaining the statutory functions that 174: Clause 68, page 46, line 3, leave out from “must” to end of the regional assemblies currently carry out as regional line 4 and insert “conduct a review of the regional strategy for planning bodies and as regional chambers because we their region every 5 years” have taken into account people’s views about the current fragmentary nature of the regional architecture. Baroness Warsi: I shall speak also to Amendments 175 What we will have now is a greater role for local and 176. This group of amendments pertains to the authorities and a greater involvement. On that basis, I review and revision of regional strategy. Two of my hope to persuade the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, to amendments, Amendments 174 and 176, are probing withdraw her amendment and the noble Baroness, in nature. Amendment 175 is a more substantive issue. Lady Hamwee, to not move hers. I agree with the underlying thrust of the clause. Authorities must of course keep regional strategy Baroness Hamwee: I hope the Minister will take this under review. As circumstances change, it is vital that comment in the right spirit. I do not think that the the responsible authorities remain alert to what they tone of what the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, said was might need to adopt in their strategies. However, I in any way aggressive. Certainly I made clear that my have some questions about the way in which the Bill amendment was probing. I appreciate that the Minister sets out how the review should be conducted. It is not has to respond to the amendments as they are on the right approach for the Secretary of State to tell paper and that we often come across the problem of authorities what to do. Authorities should not simply GC 59 Local Democracy[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Local Democracy GC 60 wait to be told by central government to review their My amendment is not just about status, but ensuring strategies; they ought to take that initiative themselves. that those who can have a sensible input into the Local authorities know best what is going on in their strategy have the opportunity to make it and, conversely, own areas. They will be immediately aware of fluctuations can be called on to make that input. I was contacted or variations in the strength of the local economy, of this morning by the English National Park Authorities development needs, of pressures on local infrastructure Association—which may be why the noble Lord, Lord and so on. We do not need to involve the Secretary of Judd, is present; I look forward to what he has to State in every such matter; it is both bureaucratic and say—offering its support for this amendment. It cumbersome and sends out a strong signal that local commented particularly on the expertise that is available authorities cannot be properly trusted to do what and might be lost if the provision is not replicated. is needed locally. This is the matter raised by The association told me that it has been in correspondence Amendment 175. with the Minister, who confirmed to it that the national Amendment 174 should be read in the light of that. park authorities will retain their role under Section 4 It is not necessary for the Secretary of State to be the of the 2004 Act. I should be grateful if the Minister directing force in ordering a review, but, equally, local would clarify the position. authorities must step up to meet that responsibility. I believe that they can do so. Amendment 174 merely draws attention to the fact that a review must be a Lord Judd: As there was a reference to me, perhaps necessity; it need not be every five years. I chose that I should intervene. I apologise for not having associated time span because when I read through the Bill, with myself with this endeavour previously, but in the week all its centralising provisions, five-year plans keep before the recess I was hospitalised. popping into my head. We do not need to get bogged I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, down in a precise figure; I simply wish to emphasise for her amendment. I should explain that I am president the importance of the local authority having a review of Friends of the Lake District and the vice-president of regional strategy when it feels that it is correct to do of the Campaign for National Parks. Perhaps I may so according to the circumstances on the ground. make a general observation; my noble friend knows Amendment 176 again probes the meaning of “from absolutely that I am enthusiastically behind the time to time” in respect of the review of community Government’s intent in this Bill, as I am in the Planning involvement policies. “From time to time” is such a Bill, to get shape, purpose, direction and drive into our vague phrase as to be almost meaningless. I have planning processes and to strengthen them. I take suggested “when they see fit”, because the policies second place to no one in that. may stay fresh and relevant and need not be changed, However, she also knows that I am very much at in which case, a review for the sake of fulfilling the one with the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and her requirements of the clause would be unnecessary. fellow Peers, in believing that the strength of national Alternatively, a policy may need more urgent reviewing. planning depends on the quality of the consultation The wording of my amendment would allow the process before it is formulated. Consultation is crucial; authorities to react quickly to meet that need, whereas the more consultation there is, not just in the spirit, the “from time to time” suggests that a review could be stronger will be the plan that eventually emerges, kicked into the long grass no matter what the because you have the maximum possible public goodwill circumstances. and understanding with you. You do not find yourself I am sure that the Minister will assuage my concerns, in a situation from the moment that the proposal is but “from time to time” is a curious phrase. I would put on the table and concluded that you are in a welcome the Minister’s comments on it. I beg to move. clawback situation and are fighting defensive action against people who, very often, might not have been as strongly opposed if they had been consulted. Consultation Baroness Hamwee: We have added our names to is not only wise, but important in principle. Amendment 175, which raises similar concerns about Indeed, my noble friend was exemplary in the Planning the Secretary of State’s role. Our amendment in this Bill in the way that she took the point about the group is Amendment 174A, suggested to us by the national parks and co-operated; she almost took over Local Government Association, which rightly anticipated the amendment to the point at which it was included our concern as regards the involvement of local authorities. in the Bill. That was because the national parks have a Under Section 4 of the Planning and Compulsory specific purpose, which is established nationally and Purchase Act 2004, the regional planning body has to repeated in legislation, to act on behalf of the nation, seek the advice of upper-tier authorities, national parks not just the local community, in ensuring that certain authorities and, I believe, the Broads Authority in principles and priorities that might not be focused on drawing up the regional spatial strategies. The authorities, with the degree of importance that they deserve are on the other hand, are under a duty to give advice. taken seriously regarding these unrivalled assets to This has not been replicated in the current Bill. I am our nation’s heritage, psychological strength and the rest. told that the current arrangements for regional spatial I could not help but feel, when I looked at all this, strategies work well. Therefore, my amendment would that there must simply have been an inconsistency—that put the current provision into the Bill, which seems something that had been specifically been covered in entirely reasonable, given that it provides for a new the Planning Bill had somehow not come across into strategy to replace the regional spatial strategy. I say the context of this Bill. From that standpoint I hope that knowing the role of the leaders’ board, which may that my noble friend will be able to look seriously at not consist of every authority in the region. what the noble Baroness has argued and accommodate GC 61 Local Democracy[LORDS] Local Democracy GC 62

[LORD JUDD] event that regional authorities are unwilling, for whatever it. In the spirit of everything that my noble friend said reason, to initiate a review of themselves or cannot on the Planning Bill, it is vital that it is recognised and agree whether to have a review, even though other repeated in the Bill that national parks are special and, local, regional or national partners feel it is necessary. in that context, have to be well represented in these Clause 68, as a default power, therefore specifies that processes. the regional authorities must undertake a review if and when required by the Secretary of State to do so. Baroness Andrews: I turn first to the review of the We debated the powers of the Secretary of State in a regional strategy. I am pleased to see my noble friend previous debate, so I will not reiterate them; I shall just in such good health and good voice, and to see the say that this is a safeguard as a last resort. national parks represented again in the Bill. With regard to the timing of the reviews, Clause 68 4pm requires the regional authorities to keep the strategy I turn to Amendment 174A. I shall come back to under review. The power to do that, which is important, the noble Baroness’s other amendment on the other gives them discretion to determine the timing and issue of timing. Amendment 174A addresses the role scope of the review, so I agree with much of what the of individual local authorities in these decisions about noble Baroness said. I should point out that under the the timing and scope of reviews of the regional strategy. terms of Clause 5 regional authorities are also required The amendment would require regional authorities to to monitor the strategy annually. The monitoring and consult county and unitary councils in the regions, as the question of whether a review is timely will go well as any National Park authorities or the Broads together. Monitoring will provide the information that Authority when deciding whether to trigger a review will help them to judge whether a review is needed. of the strategy. Significantly, district councils in two-tier Clause 68 essentially provides a default power for areas would not be consulted directly, although they the Secretary of State to require a review if, for whatever would have to be consulted by their county. Clearly we reason, the regional authorities have not done that are at one with this argument. and there are apparently good reasons for doing so. Local authorities should be at the centre of That is simply taken from the regional spatial strategy decisions about the regional strategy. The noble arrangements under the terms of the Planning and Baroness anticipated some of those arguments. That Compulsory Purchase Act 2004. I emphasise that it is is why we listened so closely during the consultation very much for the regional authorities to decide the on these proposals and responded by giving the local timing. authority leaders’ board the joint duty, with the RDA, Amendments 174 and 175 would remove the power to prepare the draft regional strategy and prepare an of the regional authorities, and I understand that implementation plan. As a result, county and unitary these are probing amendments. The noble Baroness councils, as well as any National Park authorities or has explained why she suggested that the frequency of the Broads Authority, will already be directly involved the regional strategy should be at five-yearly intervals, in decisions about the timing and scope of reviews and I understand what she is asking for here. In fact, through their participation in the local authority we agree that reviews of regional strategy are likely to leaders’ board. Concern has been expressed by the take place approximately every five years; we said so in Local Government Association that, because we are our regional strategy policy document and intend to not replicating Section 4(4) of the Compulsory restate it in future guidance. However, it is crucial to Purchase Act 2004, we are in some ways weakening retain flexibility, which is currently in place for both the role, because there is no strictly equivalent the regional economic and the regional spatial strategies. provision in this Bill giving counties a formal role in None of us would think that the trigger for a review of the regional strategy process. regional strategy should be an arbitrary date. It has to I reassure noble Lords and the Local Government be based on perception of need and evidence if external Association—and I am very happy to put this in a circumstances change—for example, if there is a major letter to noble Lords, which can be sent to the LGA—that shift in the economic environment, such as a major counties will have a number of clear statutory roles. expansion of port facilities. We need to keep that Although we have not replicated it in exactly the same flexibility to review as and when circumstances change, way, they will in effect be achieved with no loss of because those determine the investment decisions and opportunity or access to influence. First, local authorities planning decisions as well. will have a duty to prepare economic assessment of It should primarily be the responsibility of the their area; that will be the point at which the information regional authorities to judge when a review is needed will form and drive the priorities and will form part of and what the scope of the review should be, based on the regional strategy evidence base. Secondly, they will the evidence available to them. That is why we used the be participating authorities, responsible for agreeing term, the membership and operation of the leaders’ boards; in practice, they are likely to be on the board in most “when it appears to them necessary or expedient to do so” or even all regions. Thirdly, they will be required to be in relation to the regional authorities. I have said that consulted on draft regional strategies; that will be set that is supported by Clause 75 and monitoring the out in guidance, which will specify that. In that guidance, strategy. the counties and all other local authorities would be In worst-case scenarios—I cannot imagine them, identified as bodies to be consulted in the regulations but we have to provide in legislation for the worst that we have promised to provide in relation to Clause 69, events—there may be a need for safeguards in the to draft regional strategies and to Clause 72(3). GC 63 Local Democracy[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Local Democracy GC 64

The National Park authorities are participating In the context of those points about the general authorities, responsible for drawing up the scheme for provisions of the amendment, I emphasise the special the leaders’ board. We said in the policy document significance of the national parks, on which the that they can but do not have to be on the board, but Government have been splendid. I happen to know they must be part of the board’s membership and its from personal experience that my noble friend is second operation and they would be consulted on the draft to none in her commitment to those parks. I hope that strategy and Clause 72(3), to be provided in regulations. the Government will not just slam the door but will, Again, I am happy to write to the National Parks after our deliberations, give a little more thought to Authority, setting that out and ensuring that everyone what is involved in this part. is clear about that, because it is such a critical partner in this. Baroness Andrews: There are those who think that I I hope that that satisfies concerns on that issue. I am a centralising maniac—maybe not entirely—but I turn to the other set of issues, which were raised by the reassure my noble friend that much of what he wants regional authorities’ review of their statements of policy will be achieved. The national parks authorities are on community involvement. That is the point raised in identified in Clause 66 as participating authorities in Amendment 176. The noble Baroness rightly probed the leaders’ board, so they are in the Bill. As I said, we why we have used the expression “from time to time”, will write a letter to the national parks authorities, which seems more lyrical than legislative when put like identifying clearly what we see as their role and bringing that. Essentially there is little difference between that together all our information for them. and the formulation that she offers; both will have the same effect in allowing the regional authorities to determine the timing of revisions to their policies on Baroness Hamwee: I am on the lookout for centralising community involvement in the regional strategy process. maniacs, but I have never noticed that tendency in the However, “from time to time” implies that revisions noble Baroness. She is certainly not a cultural charlatan; will take place, whereas “when they see fit” may result that I know for a fact. in no revision if the bodies do not see fit. We need to My problem with what the noble Baroness has keep that protection and flexibility. said—perhaps this could be pursued further in the I hope with those explanations that noble Lords letter, for which I will be very grateful—is that the will be satisfied. As I have said, I can certainly put leaders’ board will act as a sort of filter, or at any rate what I have said in writing for the interested parties. a funnel. Although local authorities, national parks authorities, and so on will be participating in the Lord Judd: It is not for me to thank my noble friend leaders’ board, the leaders’ board is narrower, because for that guidance, because it is not my amendment, it will give one reaction, unless it is very culturally but I find her words extremely powerful and very forward-looking and believes in sharing the diverse reassuring. I, for one, welcome them. I find them so views that it may gather. It is likely to refine down the powerful and reassuring that I cannot for the life of views of the participating authorities and come back me see why the point cannot be included in the Bill. If with a view of the leaders’ board, which may be the something is as important as my noble friend has lowest common denominator and not pick up the described this as being, the sensible place for it is in nuances of the diverse views of the participating the Bill. authorities. I make two observations. One is that Clause 69 is Baroness Warsi: I am grateful to the Minister for entitled “Community involvement”, but I do not see her response. I was heartened by her words about the in the wording much illustration of that dynamic of intention of the Bill. I again agree with the noble community involvement. It is all rather formalistic Baroness, Lady Hamwee, that the Minister is in no and bureaucratic. It would be helpful to spell that out way a centralising maniac, but that is not to say that in a bit more detail at this point. I emphasise that I am future Secretaries of State of whatever colour or very much with local authorities in their reservations. I persuasion may not be. That is why I fear that the raise my concerns about national parks in that context. Secretary of State’s fallback position could be used to The other point that I make to my noble friend—it interfere with local decision-making. If they wished to is not the first time that I have made it in Committee impose a new priority locally, the reviews could be on Bills of this kind—is that, if I am allowed to say so used as a mechanism for achieving that. I raise those as a long-standing Member of Parliament, I often concerns again. reflect that in reality it is not possible to separate the I take on board the Minister’s comments about the legislation from the intention and spirit of the Ministers drafting of the words “when they see fit” in Amendment at the time. What may be very important to Ministers 176 and her asking whether they go much further than at one time will not necessarily be there in spirit for “from time to time”. She is privileged to have behind ever. In these realms, it would not be impossible to her today five very clever civil servants; I am sure that have some centralist maniac or cultural charlatan coming they will come up with much better drafting. We may in who says, “Oh, that was in some damn letter, but it be able to think of some words before Report which is not actually in the Bill”. In the end, letters lose their could be seen as more proactive than “from time to significance. From that standpoint, I hope that my time” or “when they see fit”, either of which could be noble friend will be able to consider the point a bit seen as kicking reviews into touch. I beg leave to more fully, because it need not be the Government’s withdraw the amendment. ideological position to resist it; that could be a very positive step and generate a lot of good will. Amendment 174 withdrawn. GC 65 Local Democracy[LORDS] Local Democracy GC 66

Amendments 174A and 175 not moved. reserve powers of the Secretary of State. If the responsible regional authorities do not move on with the examination Clause 68 agreed. in public, the Secretary of State can; in that situation, it would not be proper for there not to be an examination in public. I beg to move. Clause 69 : Community involvement

Amendments 175ZA to 176A not moved. Baroness Warsi: I speak to Amendment 177. This is, I hope, just a drafting issue. If not, it might turn out Clause 69 agreed. to be a much bigger problem than originally anticipated. The amendment inserts the words “an automatic” into Clause 70(7), so that it would read, “No person has an Clause 70 : Examination in public automatic right to be heard at an examination in public”. When I read the line for the first time as drafted, I was startled. It appeared to say that no one Amendment 176B at all would be given a right to be heard at an examination Moved by Baroness Hamwee in public. I presume that that was not what it was 176B: Clause 70, page 46, line 36, at end insert— meant to say, and I hope that my amendment will allow the Minister to clarify the issue. “( ) the extent and nature of the consultation on the draft revision before it was published,” The drafting of my amendment might not be perfect, but the current drafting of subsection (7) is much Baroness Hamwee: I shall speak also to Amendments worse and should be tightened up. The examination in 176C, 176D, 176E and 180C. The clause concerns the public, as I am sure the noble Baroness will agree, is an examination in public of the regional strategy. I have important element in accountability. It would be again gone back to the 2004 Act, which deals with unacceptable if the drafting of the clause created an regional spatial strategies. The first of the amendments unintentional loophole whereby no one would ever be would insert into Clause 70(2), which deals with the granted a right to be heard. decision whether to arrange for an examination in public, the need to have regard to, Baroness Andrews: Perhaps I may first respond to “the extent and nature of the consultation on the draft revision that point, which I can clarify. I am grateful to the before it was published”. noble Baroness for raising it and I can see why she has They are not original words; I have taken them directly done so. The formulation that no one has a right to be from Section 7. heard comes directly from the Planning and Compulsory On the other hand, Amendment 176C proposes Purchase Act 2004 and is the standard formulation deleting Clause 70(2)(b) as one of the matters to which that people are familiar with. Essentially, its effect is regard must be had. The words in that paragraph are, that no one has an absolute right to be heard at an EiP, because it is entirely up to the discretion of the independent “the level of interest shown in the draft revision”. panel who it chooses to invite to the EiP. That in itself That, of course, is important, but it is not the whole of reflects the present arrangements for the regional spatial it by any means. Interest is often aroused, or at any strategy. We are just continuing the formula. If one rate manifests itself at a relatively late stage—planning were to use the word “automatic” we would raise seems to be particularly prone to this. If interest is not different issues. We have emphasised throughout that shown in the draft, it does not mean that interest will there is a very important role for stakeholders, the not be shown in the final document. responsible regional parties and the panel to listen to 4.15 pm concerns and to draw upon expertise. Amendment 176D has been tabled because I am What gives this process greater strength is that by concerned—this will come out in other amendments— appointing the panel earlier in the process, it will be about the possible tensions between the component able to work in parallel with the preparation of the parts of the responsible regional authorities. The strategy. We have said that the panel should, for example, amendment states that if there is a disagreement as to hold preparatory sessions before the final hearing so whether or not there should be an examination in that it can hear wider and differing points of view public, reviews of the leaders’ board shall prevail, from the public and other stakeholders, which will because I have a natural instinct to support the local give people greater access to the panel and to the authority component, and it is possible that that arguments which will help to diffuse some of the component may see more benefit in a public examination controversies and difficulties which otherwise surface than a regional development agency that is made up at far too late a stage. If I can be clear, the fact that substantially of individuals whose backgrounds are there is not an absolute right to be heard is not about not in the public sector and who tend to view these limiting stakeholder and public involvement at all. In matters a bit differently. I confess that it is almost addition, Clause 69 requires regional authorities to inconceivable, if there is some difference, that it will publish a statement of community involvement, as the not have been tested publicly, but I want to understand noble Baroness knows. what happens if there is tension. Subsection (7) is about ensuring an approach to Amendment 176E makes essentially the same point independent testing, which is important and credible as Amendment 176B, and Amendment 180C changes because it puts the onus on the independent panel to a “may” to a “must” in Clause 73, relating to the select participants and, therefore, prevents situations GC 67 Local Democracy[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Local Democracy GC 68 in which people who shout loudest may dominate the expect that mechanism to be in place before they start debate. The problem with the term “automatic” is that on a revision. They must have their journey mapped it is not well understood in a legal context; it may be before they begin. To allow the view of one party open to misinterpretation. The more common distinction automatically to prevail undermines the notion of is that made between absolute and qualified rights, trust that we are trying to build and the whole basis of whereby the latter are limited in some way. I hope that the joint duty on RDAs and leaders to work together. that explanation, plus the bit of context that I have Because we do not live in a perfect world, we have given, will satisfy the noble Baroness on the point that introduced a safeguard if they cannot resolve their she identified. differences, but it is only a safeguard. Clause 70(5) I turn Amendments 176B, 176C, 176E, and the enables the Secretary of State to arrange an EiP if criteria which responsible regional authorities should there is disagreement or where the responsible regional apply in deciding whether to hold an EiP.Amendments authorities decide not to arrange for an examination. 176B and 176E change subsections (2) and (6), which In those circumstances, the Secretary of State can currently require the regional authorities and Secretary arrange an EiP, but as it is so fundamental to how the of State to have regard to the extent of the revisions, mechanism will work and the transparency and the level of interest shown in the draft revisions, and contestability of what is proposed, it is extremely other matters which the responsible regional authorities unlikely that that situation would arise. think appropriate. The amendments would remove Amendment 180C would make it mandatory instead paragraph (b) and instead require the extent and nature of discretionary for the Secretary of State to hold an of the consultation on the draft revision to be taken EiP before making changes. That would apply only in into account. Although I respect the argument, I think the very exceptional circumstances where the Secretary that the amendments diminish the provisions for review. of State has resorted to reserve powers under which They would remove the need to consider the level of she takes over responsibility for the regional strategy interest. The requirement for a responsible regional and removes it from the regional authorities. The authority to consider whether to hold an EiP would be noble Baroness’s amendment would mean that where replaced by a requirement to consider the extent and the Secretary of State has taken back responsibility nature. Subsections (2)(b) and (6)(b) mean that one of for drafting strategy, there should be no discretion the considerations in deciding whether to hold an EiP whether there should be an EiP; it should be mandatory. in the first place will be the actual, potential level of I can see her argument, but the decision on whether interest in the process, particularly the level of controversy to hold an EiP must be taken on the basis of common that may be expected, which may be gauged even at an sense: whether it is appropriate and whether it would early stage in the regional strategy process from discussions add value to the process. In other words, it must be about the scope of the review and the draft revision. based on whether serious issues have been raised. The That is a valuable thing to have. The panel itself will amendment would require minor, technical and small-scale be involved at a much earlier stage in observing that. change to be subject to an EiP.That is not in the public Stakeholder engagement is critical to ensure that interest. Clause 73(3) already requires the Secretary of the regional strategy does what it is supposed to do in State to take account of the extent of any revisions integrating competing demands and commanding support and the level of interest in them, which covers that across the region so that the outcomes can be genuinely point. If there are significant changes or controversial owned and supported by the widest possible community. issues, an EiP must be held. That is why we have put community involvement at I hope that I have answered as clearly as possible the heart of the process. The statement of policies on the issues raised and I hope that the noble Baronesses involving the community, which responsible regional will be satisfied with my answer. authorities will need to prepare under Clause 69, and which is in current legislation, needs to set out how the region proposes to engage with stakeholders, both Lord Greaves: Perhaps I may make a couple of formally and informally, and Clause 69(3) expects comments before the promoters of the amendments regions to comply with their published statement. I reply to what the Minister said. When she talks about assure the noble Baroness that the extent and nature community involvement in the regional strategy, our of public consultation will be a relevant consideration experience of the regional spatial strategy, as it is now, when the panel examines the strategy. We have already and of its predecessors is that there is very little said in our policy document that we will clarify further community involvement. Community involvement is a in guidance what we expect to see in the statement of myth. The north-west region has recently had its regional community involvement. spatial strategy approved. The new regional strategy On the other two amendments, and the important will be even bigger involving even more things, so issues they raise, the proposal for a fallback provision there will be even less opportunity for people to take to be introduced in the event of a disagreement between part, because there will be more competition from the RDA and leaders’ board on whether or not to different interests. arrange for an EiP is addressed though the amendment What takes place is involvement by a number of that the leaders’ board judgment would prevail. I powerful and active interests. Some of them are understand concerns in that regard, but as part of the commercial interests and some of them are pressure working arrangements for preparing the draft strategy group interests, but to describe that as community we expect the RDA and the leaders’ board to set out involvement is an inaccurate use of words. The whole how they will resolve any differences between them, process would be a lot easier to understand and describe either on the process or content of the strategy. We to people if the Government used accurate words. It is GC 69 Local Democracy[LORDS] Local Democracy GC 70

[LORD GREAVES] something that reflects the views and attitudes of the difficult enough to get widespread or large-scale public in their area and that they do have clout, one community involvement with the adoption of the can wheeze away about giving people a shopping local plan, never mind the regional strategy or the voucher in Sainsbury’s to vote, or whatever it is, but no local development framework, as it is now. A few one will get them to vote seriously unless they feel that people, the same people every time, put forward their their vote will have some effect. views, but most people have no clue that it is going on. That is even more true at the regional level. Baroness Hamwee: I, too, want to refer to community My second point concerns the examination in public. involvement. Those words appear in the heading to In the old days, when there were county structure Clause 69 but the clause provides that the statement is plans, district councils were pretty well guaranteed an concerned with the involvement of persons who appear audience at the examination in public. Again speaking to the responsible regional authorities to have an from my experience in Lancashire, nearly everyone interest in the exercise of the functions. That is not who put forward a coherent expression of views got a quite the same, even if one reads into it that there is a hearing at the examination in public; they went along requirement that they behave reasonably. and they had their say. That is no longer the case I am still not sure that the matter raised by my because the process simply cannot cope with the scale Amendment 176D is covered. Clause 70(4) provides of the operation across a widespread region of some for the position if the authorities decide to have an EiP 100 miles from end to end and 8 million people, or and Clause 70(5) provides for the position if they whateveritis. decide not to have one. Deciding not to do something But there is a huge amount of resentment among is also a decision. I am concerned about the two the planning authorities of district councils in the component parts failing to reach a decision, and that two-tier areas that they cannot get a hearing at the is what I wanted to see covered. There is certainly a examination in public. They are the planning authorities debate to be had about whether one party would responsible for producing the local development prevail over another concerning the rights and wrongs framework and the local plan once all the regional and where the balance of power should be. However, strategy is put together, and yet they are limited to putting on one side what is perhaps a more philosophical submitting written representations; they are not able argument, I think that there is still a lacuna here. to discuss issues with the inspectors and the other Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. people there. I do not know whether some of the smaller unitary authorities are in the same position Amendment 176B withdrawn. and also do not get a hearing. This is not satisfactory. It is, in effect, saying to the authorities, “Okay, you can Amendments 176C to 177 not moved. put your representations in. We will pat you on the head”—our experience is that they do not pay a great Clause 70 agreed. deal of attention to them; or, if they do, they do not agree with them anyway—“but you are the planning authorities that will have to carry this out at local Clause 71 : Matters to be taken into account in level; you have got to turn it into your local development revision framework”. To deny such authorities a hearing at the examination in public is utterly unsatisfactory. The Amendments 177A to 177F not moved. system ought to be expanded sufficiently to at least allow local planning authorities representing people in Clause 71 agreed. the localities in the region to have a say. Clause 72 : Approval of revision by Secretary of State Lord Judd: I was not going to intervene on the amendment but the noble Lord has rather challenged me to say a word. I do not believe that the observations Amendment 178 he has made are in any way limited to a Liberal perspective because they reflect completely my experience Tabled by Baroness Warsi in the reality of society. There is deep-rooted cynicism 178: Clause 72, page 48, line 14, leave out paragraph (b) and and disillusion with the concept of what participation insert— and involvement mean. The very words have a “( ) return it, with reasons, to the responsible regional counterproductive effect; people will gather together authorities for revision” and say, “Well, that does not mean anything at all. You know it does not. We cannot make any difference”. Baroness Warsi: Following correspondence with the If they do begin to look at how power is brokered they Minister, I do not intend to move Amendments 178, will say, “Well, the big boys will get together and sort it 179 or 180. These points have been debated in Committee out and we will not be listened to at all”. before and I agree with the noble Baroness that there The noble Lord has raised profound issues that go is not much new to add. However, I do not wish this to beyond the Bill and its limitations because at the be taken in any way as signalling our agreement to the moment we are all anxious about the state of democracy wording of the Bill. We still maintain that the Secretary in our country and the level of participation in voting of State plays too prescriptive and overbearing a role in local elections. Unless you can demonstrate in regional strategy under the provisions of this Bill. I meaningfully that local authorities can effectively do trust that the Minister has taken our concerns fully on GC 71 Local Democracy[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Local Democracy GC 72 board and I look forward to discussing the matter consultation across the regions. It is hard to make it a further with her before the next stage; otherwise, we meaningful and effective process within local authorities. will most certainly return to these amendments on One needs careful and innovative strategies these days Report. to reach beyond the usual groups, and so on. As for the community involvement that we have Amendment 178 not moved. had in place since 2004, I asked about it myself. There have not been any issues raised with us or the regions, as far as we have been able to find out, on the quality Amendment 178A of the public consultation on the regional spatial Moved by Baroness Hamwee strategies or of the current statements of community involvement that form part of the test of soundness 178A: Clause 72, page 48, line 15, leave out “consult such persons (if any) as the Secretary of State considers appropriate” for RSSs. That is not to say that they are working as and insert “publish the draft revision for consultation” well as they might; as we discussed in our debates on planning, if we take public consultation seriously we have to find new ways of doing it. We have to ask the Baroness Hamwee: Amendments 178A, 179B and people whose job it is to get the views and the voices of 180B all seek to ensure that modifications to the draft the communities raised so that we can hear what they revision of a regional strategy proposed by the Secretary are saying to find new ways of doing that. In the of State are published for consultation. Again, we policy document, we said that we would clarify in look to the involvement of members of the public—or, guidance what we expect from statements of policies. if you like, the community. Clause 72 sets out the What we should be looking at is who is doing this. process for the Secretary of State to approve the draft None of them may be doing it brilliantly; none of revision, and he or she can make modifications. As the them may be doing what the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, Bill stands, the Secretary of State has the right to thinks can and should be done—but some regions and determine whom to consult. some areas are doing it better than others. Having The exclusive discretion on the part of the Secretary districts represented on the leaders’ boards will give of State contrasts with the wider position that applies the districts a louder voice and more purchase on the to the regional spatial strategy. We feel that anyone system. We have to do the very best we can in making should be able to contribute at this stage of the process. sure that we set out some standards and expectations There is value to be added by those who live, work here. and, picking up a term from earlier in the Bill, study in The amendments that the noble Baroness has tabled an area to contribute to this. Under the process for are perfectly proper. She will not be surprised to hear revising a regional spatial strategy, if the Secretary of me say that what she wants is already covered, because State proposes changes to the draft revision, they are the Secretary of State is already required to consult if to be published, and I am picking up that point here. she wants to modify the draft regional strategy. I am of course aware that the new regional strategies Clause 72(3) provides for that. The Secretary of State have two parts to them—the spatial element and the can consult whoever she wants, but, more importantly, economic element, although one hopes that they will any person can make representations to the Secretary not appear as two separate parts. We have been concerned of State and she must have regard to them, under throughout the Bill, particularly the latter parts, that Clause 72(4). We do not want to limit the Secretary of the spatial elements and, using the term in the widest State’s access to information, expertise, advice or opinion possible sense, the sustainable aspects are vulnerable in any way; certainly, we do not want to limit her to being overwritten by economic concerns. It occurred access to consultation in that sense. That is what we to me that the reason why the Government have lost have provided for in the Bill, for that reason. some of the consultative elements that appear in the Amendment 180B concerns the requirement to give 2004 Act may be due to a feeling engendered by the reasons when publishing the regional strategy. That is current economic situation—that one has to get on already well established practice. It is currently the with everything. There is a bit of an air of panic, if I case that applies to the regional spatial strategies, so can put it that way. Is there any evidence that the far as I am aware. We will, however, also set out such a process under the 2004 Act has been a failure? I take requirement more formally in accompanying regulations, what my noble friend says about examinations in which we will be consulting on later on in the year, so public—but I refer to the consultative provisions. If the noble Baroness should be satisfied in that respect. they are thought to have worked well I am puzzled as It will be there, and people will see that that is the to why they are not precisely replicated. expectation and that is what the Secretary of State will be required to do. Baroness Andrews: I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, for not moving her amendments so that we can avoid a repetitious debate. It is very sporting of 4.45 pm her. Baroness Hamwee: The Minister is very persuasive, On Amendment 178A, the noble Baroness, Lady but on perhaps a slightly different point from the ones Hamwee, asked me a specific question taking me back I was raising. I am trying to see whether some of this to comment on what the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, wording has been picked up from the 2004 Act. I am said in his intervention at the end of the previous not sufficiently quick to be able to do so, but I will debate. We do not for a moment underestimate the follow the references that she has made. Of course we challenge that the consultation poses, especially the are with her on the importance of consultation and GC 73 Local Democracy[LORDS] Local Democracy GC 74

[BARONESS HAMWEE] overall spatial planning for the region, together with involvement. Whether what she says and the papers what used to be in the county structure plans and the that the Government will produce will be enough to structure elements of the unitary plans in the unitary meet these points I am not immediately sure, but for authorities. Therefore, the RSS is essentially a plan. the moment I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. What are the current implementation documents of the regional spatial strategy? At least one of the Amendment 178A withdrawn. implementation documents—perhaps the most important one—is the local development framework in each Amendments 179 to 180B not moved. local authority, unitary or district area. People go to that document to find out what they can do, what they Clause 72 agreed. are encouraged to do, what they are banned from doing and how they have to do things if they want to Clause 73 : Reserve powers of Secretary of State carry out development in a particular area. So, in many ways, the current local plan and the local development frameworks as they are evolving are the Amendments 180C and 180D not moved. implementation strategy for at least that part of the RSS which is the successor to the structure plans and Clause 73 agreed. possibly for the whole of it if spatial planning is working. Clause 74 : Revision: supplementary The RSS will be half—that is, one of the two parts—of the regional strategy.The other half is something Amendment 180E not moved. quite different. It is the economic strategy integrated with the planning strategy for the region. I can understand Clause 74 agreed. what an implementation document for the economic strategy will look like. I am not sure whether the RDAs have one at the moment but I can get a feel for Clause 75 : Implementation what it is like. However, I cannot get a feel for an implementation document or the planning part of the strategy.Does it mean that local development frameworks Amendment 180F will be different in future? Will the document that they Moved by Lord Greaves have relate to regional level and be based on the whole 180F: Clause 75, page 49, line 28, leave out subsection (1) regional strategy or just the spatial element of it? If it is the whole regional strategy, is the implementation document an important part of the local planning Lord Greaves: Clause 75 comes under the heading system? Will planning authorities, when putting together “Implementation of strategy”. It is a short clause, their local development framework, have to take account which is headed “Implementation”. The nub of it is in of the implementation document? Clearly, if the Clause 75(1), which reads: implementation document is what I think it is in terms “The responsible regional authorities must produce and publish, of the economic strategy, it will talk about investment. and from time to time revise, a plan for implementing the regional It will look at where government investment and other strategy for their region”. public sector investment can go and where private Amendment 180F would delete that. It is obviously a sector investment can be brought in. It will be an probing amendment. If it were to be passed, it would active, practical document trying to push and channel wreck the whole clause. Maybe the whole clause needs development to certain areas and away from others. wrecking. Maybe this whole lot needs wrecking. I have This issue concerns something quite new. This is a been told I have not got to be so rude today as the very short clause and I think that it would be of great Minister thought I was the other day. At least I will help if the Minister could explain more about it: how not be quite so rude until we get on to the next lot. it will work, what it will be and, in particular, whether The purpose of putting this amendment down is to it will cast its shadow over the planning system as well ask some questions about the implementation plan. as trying to promote public investment and regeneration. What is it? What will it be like? What will it look like? I beg to move Amendment 180F as a probing amendment How big will it be? How will it be produced? What to ask those questions. processes of consultation and involvement will there be in producing it? What force will it have? Baroness Warsi: I have one amendment in this The report does not have to go to the Secretary of group. Amendment 181 would simply insert a duty to State—it is one of the few things in the entire Bill that evaluate from a cost-benefit basis the whole of this does not have to go to the Secretary of State to be part. The plain point behind that is to find out whether approved—but, as I understand it, after 12 months a this new legislation is worth while. The Government report has to be put forward on how it is carried out. have presented the Bill as a measure to help us to get I do not quite understand what an implementation out of recession. If that is what it is and what it will do plan is in relation to the regional strategy. Under the in practice, it will be well worth knowing whether it is existing system we have the regional spatial strategy, working. If it turns out that the new measures do not which is a planning document. It is a strategic planning help or are even a burden, plainly it will be prudent to document, which is what it says; it is a strategy, but it is stop and think again rather than, putting it coarsely, essentially a planning document. It includes some continuing to flog a dead horse. GC 75 Local Democracy[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Local Democracy GC 76

I have seen the impact assessments prepared by the processes, such as the planning system that guides department but I hope that the Minister can lay out investment, and the commitments from other partners, for us in Committee the Government’s estimated costs the private sector and the utilities, who will also deliver for the implementation of Part 5 on regional strategy. the strategy. How much will the new political infrastructure cost? As we have said throughout this part of the debate, Will it be an ongoing cost and, if so, will it diminish or the key win here, the prize, is the opportunity to start increase? Once the Government have seen through the aligning investment with priorities, which are informed implementation of the provisions of this part and got both by spatial imperatives and the economic geography the show going, where will the money come from to of the region, so that we get better outcomes. keep it on the road? How much will the leaders’ boards Most regions are already producing implementation cost to run? How much is in the budget for the plans. Our feedback suggests that they welcome the operational costs of the RDAs? Does the Minister opportunity to formalise the work and, as I have said, agree that this money would be better spent at a local some regions are producing joint RSS and RES level, rather than simply churning money around so implementation plans. Sometimes the implementation that we have a duplication of duties and costs? plan itself is overlooked and the great drama is in the Given that we were told when the Bill was unveiled creation of the plan rather than in its implementation. that it was a direct answer to the Government’s economic We are requiring one document at regional level in difficulties, and in light of the fact that in the past the implementation plan, but it is clear that the strategy weeks and months the same Government have been at will be implemented also through local and separate pains to tell us what uncertain and uncharted economic plans—the noble Lord was absolutely right to pick territory we are entering, would it not be prudent to out the local development framework. assess with empirical evidence whether the structures in the Bill are the correct ones to deal with the economic turmoil? I hope my amendment will be seen as constructive 5pm and helpful. The noble Lord asked about the local development framework. The regional economic strategy, because it will bring together the spatial strategies and the economic Baroness Hamwee: I suspect that the Minister will strategies, will be a planning document. It will be not see our Amendment 180G as helpful or constructive. material to the planning system. It certainly will not We feel that Clause 75(3) is heavy handed. My noble affect the role or the significance of the local development friend referred in opening to the lesser role of the frameworks, but, as the noble Lord well described, it Secretary of State in this provision compared with will be part of the planning system and the LDFs will that in other clauses, but Clause 75(3) provides for the be situated within it. Secretary of State to make regulations relating to the In response to the questions raised about period to be covered by the report, to its form and monitoring the budget, I should say that I have content and to the report being submitted to the debated this Bill in terms of being a salient and timely Secretary of State. The implication of the last point is response to the collapse of the banking systems—they that a formal submission may lead to the Secretary of are a unique set of circumstances which require us to State taking some action—it would be entirely natural have the most robust apparatus in place. However, for the report to be submitted in any event—but one these are long-term plans; they are not simply reactive cannot really envisage local authorities saying, “No, plans that will help to focus our economic you cannot see it”. I assume the clause carries with it development work in the next year or two. The an implication that there is something more to it than resilience of the structures and the clarity of that, but it does seem a little heavy handed. objectives will be extremely important in serving long-term objectives across the regions. Baroness Andrews: I shall address, first, the amendment The noble Baroness was absolutely right to press us tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. I am relieved on value for money. I do not think that the amendment to find that it is a probing amendment. I thought he serves a very good purpose, because requiring every was teasing me, but it is a perfectly respectable amendment region to do annually what she suggests is not good and I shall be happy to answer it as best I can. value for money, but measuring the costs and benefits Bearing in mind that this is work in progress, the of the strategies and making sure we know where reason we have put the implementation plan into success lies and whether we are achieving it is vital. legislation is that it is important for people to understand Measuring costs and benefits for regional strategies is that we are serious about implementation as well as not easy, partly because they are long term, with a about drawing up strategies. The implementation plan 20 to 25-year time horizon. It is an investment in the sets out how the plan will be delivered. If I were to future. There is a problem also with dealing with sum it up, I would say that it will set out the programmes, counterfactual evidence; that is, what might have happened the processes and the timetables which will deliver the without the strategy. This highlights the importance of objectives and the policies in the plan. It will identify regular, close and clever monitoring, which is what the who is going to do what and who are the responsible annual monitoring report is about. It is about tracking people; what funding will be delivered by key agencies whether the strategy is on course; for example, on such as the RDA, the Highways Agency, the Homes skills, jobs, houses or renewable energy. and Communities Agency and the Environment Agency; In response to the noble Baroness’s specific questions, what local government bodies will do through their I say that we currently have an annual budget of own spending programmes; and it will identify other £20 million for regional spatial strategies, which would GC 77 Local Democracy[LORDS] Local Democracy GC 78

[BARONESS ANDREWS] Baroness Andrews: I am happy to give the noble be used for all regions. How much each particular Baroness as much information as I can. I will do that body is given will depend on the working arrangements in writing; when I do that I can also update her on the that they agree between them. The £20 million does arrangements already in train for the leaders’ board in not include local authority costs, but it is the budget that region. A letter is on its way to noble Lords about that we are working to at the moment. the progress made on the leaders’ boards, but I will see I understand why the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, whether I can find additional information for that said that subsection (3) is heavy-handed. Her Amendment region. 180G is helpful in the sense that it enables me to reassure her about it. The reason that we have included Lord Greaves: I am grateful to my noble friend it in this form is that it is based on the experience that Lady Hamwee and the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, we have gained from regional spatial strategies, where for speaking to their amendments in this group, and there is also a current requirement to produce such a to my noble friend Lady Maddock for putting her report. We have found that there is real value in finger on a major problem: in places such as enforcing an element of conformity across regions in Northumberland, the Government have abolished terms of both data and timing so that there is an local democracy. Sooner or later, someone will have to ability to collate data and get a national picture, come along to reinvent it. It may well be after our thereby giving us a comparative basis. To do this, we time, but the memory of it should not be allowed to would use a mixture of regulation and guidance as die. Those of us who remember local democracy appropriate, but given the significance of the regional should continue to talk about it in the hope that in strategy and the need to be sure that all the investment future people will pick it up again. and planning is working, putting the key elements into I was very grateful for what the Minister said. She regulations is important—it reinforces the point that I did not answer my question about what processes of made earlier about the need for close monitoring. It consultation there will be in drawing up the means that the report has greater status, but, much implementation plan, but I think that I can give her more important, that it becomes more useful as a tool the answer that she would give me if I pressed her on for the regions and the partners in delivering their it, so I do not need to. That would be that of course strategies. these are reasonable people and they will consult However, I take the point that the noble Baroness is where it is necessary and sensible to do so, because making in these amendment; that is, given the weight everybody in the world is reasonable: that is the basis that will attach to the regional strategies, there needs on which the legislation is proposed. to be a clear understanding of how effective they are She said that the implementation plan will set out and whether they are on track. I think that the legislation who will implement the strategy and that it will involve as it stands has got the balance right between flexibility local government and other processes, the planning and encouragement. The clause requires that the annual system, investment, the private sector and, no doubt, report contain such information as may be so specified others that I did not have time to write down. That in regulations. We might also provide a little more would be a huge document. It will clearly not be a detail in guidance—we would want to explore that huge document, because there will not be the resources further before committing the regions and resources to produce a huge document. Therefore, it can do one to it. However, we want the annual report to be of two things. It can either be a summary document, relevant, as useful as possible and proportionate. I which would be a complete waste of time for everybody, hope on that basis that noble Lords will not press their or it can concentrate on major projects with major amendments. lines of investment—reopening railway lines, perhaps, or building new motorways, although I hope not that, Baroness Maddock: Before my noble friend responds, or whatever it happens to be—in the public sector and perhaps I may ask the noble Baroness a couple of developments such as port developments, major industrial questions. I am sorry that I was not here at the estates, and so on. Such things could be in it, and that beginning and cannot stay until the end, but I am would be sensible. However, when the Minister started interested in understanding how the regional bodies to talk about aligning investment with priorities and will now work, especially in my region of the north-east, having one document at regional level, I thought, where we will not have any district councils. The noble “One document to rule us all, one document to bring Baroness was referring to the way in which local us all and in the darkness bind us”. That is not an involvement will happen. I do not expect her to answer entirely frivolous point. The amount of dirigisme that now, but I wonder whether she could give some thought there is nowadays in government thinking on planning to how it will operate in a region such as the north-east, and bringing the planning and economic systems together especially in my home county of Northumberland, means that the system we have now is quite different which is a very big area, and how people will have any from the system that this country had for many years. input into the strategies. Even where we have had We used to strongly criticise France, for example, for district councils, it has been quite difficult for people having a very dirigiste economic and planning system to engage. One of the big issues in our area is housing. which was thought not to be the sort of system that we As I said, I do not expect the noble Baroness to wanted here. I genuinely worry that the Government respond now, but I hope that she and her colleagues are trying to control too much from above in too much have given some thought as to how that will operate in detail and in too many plans. That is at the heart of a the north-east and how there can be meaningful lot of the concern that some of us have had with engagement down to the local level. recent planning Bills, including this one. GC 79 Local Democracy[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Local Democracy GC 80

If everything in the regional strategy is material to 5.15 pm the planning system, the planning system is going to be different. We discussed that in our debate on a previous group so I will not go into it in further detail, Amendment 182 but I believe that the combination of the Planning Act 2008 and some of what is set out here will result Moved by Baroness Warsi in a new wave of direct action against planning 182: After Clause 77, insert the following new Clause— decisions and development. People will feel that the “Delegation by regional development agencies planning system as they see it, which is when applications are put in at local level, has no flexibility After section 6A of the Regional Development Agencies Act and cannot do anything for them. They will simply be 1998 (c. 45) (delegation of functions to the Mayor of London and told that it is there in the regional strategy and the the London Development Agency) insert— national policy statement, that it was all agreed “6B Delegation of functions by regional development previously and if they did not take part in the public agencies consultation—the community involvement—that is A regional development agency shall have the power to arrange their own fault. That is what people will be told and I for the discharge of any of their functions by a local authority think that it will be a very serious situation. within their area, or jointly by a group of local authorities within that area.”” The Minister referred to the possibility of people wanting to invest. I accept that there have to be priorities, partnerships and clearly determined Baroness Warsi: Amendment 182 was inspired by priorities on big projects. However, most people who the Local Government Association, whose support invest at a lesser level—building a factory, a and efforts the Government have cited several times supermarket, a housing estate or whatever—do not throughout this Bill, and so I hope that the Minister think like this. In many cases, people will want to can throw her weight behind this new clause, which is invest in the way they want when they want and, if the also supported by noble Lords on the Liberal Democrat system cannot cope with that—if it is too inflexible Front Bench. with too much top-down stuff—the investment simply The amendment is designed to give regional will not take place. It is no good saying that that development authorities power to delegate decision- investment has to be in Liverpool but these people making and funding to local authorities and groups of want it in Burnley or vice versa; in many cases, you local authorities working at the sub-regional level. If simply have to go with the flow. We live in a free the Government are serious about wanting to improve society. We do not live in a top-down, old-fashioned, the way sub-national bodies operate, then surely allowing eastern European society, which this system seems to RDAs to loosen their grip on funds is a prime example. be getting more and more like. This will allow councils to make the necessary economic Finally, the Minister said that this arrangement was choices that will benefit their local people and of for the long term. I wish that it was. I just wish that the course to be held directly accountable to their electors Government would allow people to make long-term for how that money is spent. plans and let them evolve without constantly ripping I am quite sure that this would help to prevent the them up and starting again. In the north-west, we have potential loss of millions of pounds, wasted or spent just had a regional spatial strategy which was to last unnecessarily in the trickle of money through various until 2021, yet we have completely started again producing bodies. This measure would at a stroke simplify the a regional strategy. That is nonsense. You have to process, secure better value for money and empower make some decisions and then let those decisions authorities closest to the people they represent. I think carry on and flow. You have to let people carry out that all noble Lords would be able to subscribe to their investment and then come back in 10 or 15 years’ those aims. time with some evolution having occurred in the mean I am told by the LGA that its research shows no time. There is absolutely no point in always tearing evidence that the current boundaries, which were decided everything up and doing it all again from scratch. I am by the government offices, define regional economies. getting frustrated now, so I shall sit down and beg Below the national level, markets for goods and services, leave to withdraw the amendment. housing and labour operate at the sub-regional or city-region level. The LGA research has identified roughly 50 sub-national economic areas in England. It Amendment 180F withdrawn. seems clear that this is where decisions should be taken—at the sub-regional, rather than the regional, level. Amendments 180G and 181 not moved. If we are to persist with the system of RDAs, then at least allow them to function as efficiently as Amendment 181A had been withdrawn from the Marshalled possible by allowing delegation where appropriate, so List. that decisions about the allocation of funds are taken at the most appropriate level. This is how local communities will be empowered and local authorities Clause 75 agreed. can take a direct and important role in the development of their communities. Surely that is precisely what we should be encouraging, given the Clauses 76 and 77 agreed. current economic climate. GC 81 Local Democracy[LORDS] Local Democracy GC 82

[BARONESS WARSI] did in the consultation, that delegation from the RDAs I hope that we are pushing at an open door here, for is not only desirable but necessary. I think that we all the Government have shown that they are open to this know that there is really no such thing as regional idea. They stated in the 2007 sub-national review that economies fitting exactly the boundaries of the they, government regional offices; the reality is that beneath “expect the RDAs to delegate responsibility for spending to local national level we do have the sub-regional economies, authorities or sub-regions wherever possible, unless there is a as the noble Baroness has described. If this is to work clear case for retaining spending at the regional level”. effectively, the RDAs must be able to delegate to local Those are the Government’s words. However, in authorities or groups of local authorities. At best response to the public consultation on the SNR they there seems some doubt—I put it no stronger than issued the following statement: that—that that is legally permissible. I hope that the “The Government has concluded that, with the proposed joint Minister will tell us that it is, but to put it beyond any approach between the RDAs and the Leaders’ Board to producing doubt this amendment should appear in the Bill. the regional strategy and a joint approach between RDAs, local Therefore, we are very pleased to give our support to authorities and other sub-regional partners to investment planning the amendment. for the strategy’s delivery, legislation is not needed to deliver the spirit of the SNR reforms. Investment planning will allow local authorities and sub-regional partners to have a determining role Baroness Maddock: I add my support to what has in planning and delivering interventions which are most effectively been said. Having been on a district council getting delivered at a sub-regional level, although formal approval and money from an RDA, I know that it would have been accountability will remain as now with the RDA”. much better if we had had control of what we wanted That was in paragraph 2.52. to do. That is not to say that we were not grateful for It seems that at least some elements of the Government much of the money coming into the borough from the were receptive to this idea. However, an e-mail from a RDA in Berwick-upon-Tweed, because otherwise we BERR official to key stakeholders gave a different would probably not have had that money. But the slant. It stated that, decisions about what would happen in the borough “our view of the restrictions on delegation within the current were in many senses imposed from above. In many framework has NOT changed: RDAs cannot delegate responsibility cases, there was no money to spend on the borough for the spending of their budget. Under the proposals set out in except if it came from the RDA; therefore, it was in the consultation response, RDAs will still have to formally approve our interests to go along with whatever they were projects proposed by sub regional partners and will be accountable doing. Much of it has been quite successful—do not for them”. get me wrong; it has not been a total disaster, but it is If the BERR e-mail is correct then amendments to not very democratically accountable. That is why this existing legislation will be required to, is quite important. The Government have said that “deliver the spirit of the SNR reforms”. they want to have new localism and people in control The LGA’s proposed new clause will give RDAs the of what is going on locally. As the system works at the appropriate power to delegate power and funds as moment, it does not necessarily lead to terrible decisions promised by the Government. However, should the or awful things happening but the democratic BERR official’s judgement not be correct, this amendment accountability is totally lacking. That is why I am would still enshrine in legislation the Government’s happy to support the amendment. promise to deliver the spirit of the sub-national review reforms and ensure that power and funds were allocated Baroness Andrews: The opposition amendments provide to the most appropriate and effective level. for each RDA to have the power to delegate any of I can only hazard a guess that on this issue the their functions to a local authority or group of local Government have become tangled in their thinking. authorities in the region. If the amendment were I hope that this amendment will provide the opportunity accepted, it would mean that any RDA function could to set the record straight and make things clearer. be delegated to a local authority or group of authorities. I beg to move. The amendment could potentially undermine parts of the regional arrangements we are putting in place Lord Tope: As the noble Baroness said, my noble through this Bill by, for example, allowing an RDA to friend Lady Hamwee and I have put our names to this delegate its functions in relation to a regional strategy amendment, which was suggested by the Local to a local authority. This would cut across the working Government Association and we are pleased to do so arrangements that we want to see; in effect, the amendment for all the reasons enunciated by the noble Baroness. would go far beyond what was intended in the SNR Long years in your Lordships’ House have taught me originally and beyond what would work or what is that it is conceptually impossible for two government appropriate. departments to make contradictory comments. This Our position on delegation is a change of emphasis cannot happen. But certainly the LGA brief gives that from the one we set out in 2007 in the sub-national impression, so I am pleased that we can give the review. I have absolutely no problem in saying that. Minister the opportunity to restore my faith that such The e-mail that was quoted was written in response to contradictions cannot happen. an LGA e-mail suggesting that we could delegate fully As the noble Baroness said, the response to the without legislation. However, the position is that consultation said specifically that legislation was not delegation, giving funds and responsibility for spending needed, yet the BERR e-mail quoted said specifically without recourse back to the RDAs, does need legislation. that legislation would be needed in order to delegate. I We are talking now about a very different background am sure that the Government agree, as they said they from the one that we faced in 2007. In the Bill we are GC 83 Local Democracy[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Local Democracy GC 84 looking at a joint responsibility and a new approach, But noble Lords have argued that they want to with the RDA and the leaders’ board working together make absolutely sure that the RDAs delegate funding to produce and implement the regional strategy. That responsibilities to the appropriate level. As I have said, configuration, frankly, opens up far greater possibilities the Government are clear that this can be achieved for joint working. We are trying to get away from without legislation but, in addition, guidance is being oppositional policies at regional and local level and developed with local government representatives that from the idea of us and them. Thanks to the work of will make clear that local authorities should have an everyone involved—BERR, CLG, the Local Government important role in working on programmes best delivered Association, the RDAs and local authorities’ at local and sub-regional level. We are also committed representatives—we have created a framework which to streamlining the processes to make delivery of the takes the oppositional threat out of the situation as far strategy as straightforward as possible. as possible in order to ensure that the right outcomes are delivered. 5.30 pm Fundamentally, we all agree that what counts is Our position is a change of emphasis, not of policy. that the best outcomes are delivered. Those do not The RDA, as part of its joint responsibility for delivery need new powers or new legislation and the best of regional strategy, needs to be able to ensure that the impacts can be achieved within the current legislative programmes and projects that it funds are consistent provisions of the RDA Act. The best proof is that this with the strategy so that there is coherence and fairness is already happening in many parts of the country across the area, so that lessons learned from evaluation through multi-area agreements and with RDAs working work of programmes in different areas about what is closely and successfully with local authorities. All this working effectively and value for money are adopted. can be confirmed and enhanced within the new It is also vital, especially at this time, to preserve the framework. We will have a new regional structure of flexibility of RDA budgets so that they can, if necessary, joint responsibility that will rest on the leaders’ boards be flexed to address economic imperatives. It has been and RDAs which are going to design, plan and implement proven over recent months that to respond to economic the delivery of the regional strategy. They will decide shocks, one needs flexibility. where investment will be made. Those decisions will take the shape of joint agreements on the programmes It is worth emphasising to any body that thinks that to be taken forward and how they should be delivered. it is acting in the interests of local authorities—I This is the investment planning approach outlined in understand the case being made by the LGA—that the Government’s response to the SNR consultation. the full implications of legislative change must be Within these broad plans, where the interests of local understood by the local authorities themselves. RDAs authorities will be already represented, individual are non-departmental bodies. They are accountable authorities will have a great deal of scope to influence through BERR to Parliament. Full legislative delegation and determine what they want to do in their areas. to LAs would bind local authorities into the same financial framework as applies to RDAs. The financial One of the advantages of using this approach is framework is rather different for non-elected bodies. that it can be taken forward now, without waiting for Local authorities have said that they want RDA money legislation. Let me share with the Committee some to come with long-term funding agreements, end-of-year examples of where RDAs are already using joint flexibility to carry forward money not spent in a investment planning in sub-regional partnerships with particular year and freedom to vire between projects no need for legislation. One North East—this will be and budgets. The Government are looking at what of particular interest to the noble Baroness, Lady flexibility there may be in the framework within the Maddock—spends £50 million a year in locally led joint investment planning approach, but whether there regeneration schemes. It has been fully involved, for is a joint investment approach or formal delegation, example, in developing the Tees Valley MAA and is a those freedoms are not currently available to RDAs. key partner in its delivery. All this is built up from a With the best will in the world, RDA money will pragmatic joint investment planning approach such as always come with some strings attached. we will see in the future for regional strategies. In summary, the amendment is too wide. For all the EMDA—the East Midlands Development Agency— reasons that I have set out, it is also unnecessary to spends about a third of its budget through sub-regional achieve all that we want and what is at the heart of the partnerships. The noble Baroness is quite right to SNR proposals. That is that interventions or plans emphasise sub-regional partnerships and we shall come that most effectively deliver the regional strategy; that on to that issue in the next part of the debate. The those are delivered at the right level, whether regional, challenge is to make the right decisions at the right some regional or local; that there is alignment between spatial level, of course, and EMDA spends a third of all those levels; and that effective partnership working its budget through sub-regional partnerships. Indeed, takes place between all parties in the region. On those it is moving to contract directly with local authorities grounds, I hope that the amendment will be withdrawn. to provide funding to support MAA development and delivery. In the north-west—this will be of interest to the Baroness Warsi: I thank the Minister for her detailed noble Lord, Lord Greaves—NWDA works closely response. It has not been easy for me to follow the with sub-regional partners; for example, in Cumbria arguments, because it is not entirely clear to me whether with Cumbria Vision, with the district councils and the Government trust local authorities to take that alongside the Pennine-Lancashire authorities to develop role forward or whether they still feel that a layer of the MAA. All this involves joint investment planning. bureaucracy is required. GC 85 Local Democracy[LORDS] Local Democracy GC 86

[BARONESS WARSI] Clause 79 : Guidance and directions I hear the detailed examples that the Minister gives; I could exchange some examples with her. The LGA is Amendments 182A and 182B not moved. concerned about where RDA delegation is not working. For example, the north-west development agency has Clause 79 agreed. been working with Cheshire County Council to decide between a separate regeneration company and the Amendment 182C had been withdrawn from the Marshalled delegation of programme funding to the county council List. to support the Weaver Valley regeneration programme. In the past month, the north-west development agency Amendment 182CA not moved. has said that it will no longer be possible for it to do so and that each individual project will now have to be appraised and approved separately. Clause 80 agreed. Even where the RDAs would like to delegate, the existing rules and regulations prevent them from having Schedule5:Regional strategy: amendments the flexibility crucial in the current economic climate. I have another example. In the East Midlands, the RDA Amendment 182D not moved. has been keen to transfer its single programme funding to the nine upper-tier authorities from April 2009, but Amendment 183 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled existing legislation and BERR guidelines mean that List. East Midlands Development Agency, to which the Minister referred, must also authorise expenditure on Schedule 5 agreed. individual projects. There is concern that RDAs are inflexible and Clauses 81 and 82 agreed. unduly bureaucratic. If the Minister will bear with me, I have another example. About a year ago, Tourism West Midlands, which is an arm of the RDA, decided Clause 83 : EPBs and their areas to try to streamline its funding procedures. A three-year business plan was produced by Destination Worcestershire with the expectation of spending about £150,000 a Amendment 183A year in a three-year programme. However, because of Moved by Baroness Warsi the bureaucracy, no funding from TWM has been received for the year April 2008 to April 2009. Without 183A: Clause 83, page 52, line 14, leave out “The Secretary of State may by order” and insert “Local authorities may join bankrolling of that project by local councils, no marketing together to” of Worcestershire would have taken place in that year. It is another example of procedures not working even where there is goodwill on the ground about delegation Baroness Warsi: I shall speak also to Amendments and trusting local authorities, those closest to the 193A, 194, 194PA, 194VA, 194ZA and 195 and on the electorate and those who empower communities most. Question whether Clauses 83 to 98 and 100 to 115 The current guidelines, rules and legislation prevent shall stand part of the Bill. that. My amendment would in one instance allow that The opposition amendments in this group would flexibility. I am sure that we shall return to this matter do two things. In the main, they would make economic on Report after reading the Minister’s arguments in prosperity boards voluntary for the participating local Hansard. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. authorities, and they would strike all the economic prosperity board clauses from the Bill. The latter Amendment 182 withdrawn. seems a dramatic step but I believe that, if economic prosperity boards were presented in a reasonable form which we found acceptable, ironically there would be Lord Patel of Bradford: This may be a convenient no need to have them in the first place. Conversely, if moment for the Committee to adjourn for 10 minutes. the Government persist with their current model, we cannot go along with them. 5.35 pm I shall use the stand part debate to ask the Minister to set out expressly why these new bodies are needed. Sitting suspended. What need are they intended to satisfy? What specific problems do they solve? It is very firmly the position 5.45 pm of this party that the Government’s repeated efforts to create regional bodies have failed. Regional assemblies Amendment 182ZA not moved. were not wanted, and RDAs are too frequently ineffective and always too remote from the people that they are supposed to serve. The Government have made repeated Clause 78 : Sustainable development attempts to impose a regional structure on what we argue are artificial regions. Amendments 182ZB and 182ZC not moved. The arbitrary boundaries that the Government have designed all too often completely fail to take into Clause 78 agreed. account the natural local economies that have formed GC 87 Local Democracy[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Local Democracy GC 88 as a result of transport links, technological links, On Amendment 195, I am pleased that the Minister clusters of natural and human resources and the choices has agreed to look at the issue again. From reading her made by businesses and their customers. How exactly letter, which I expect has been placed in the Library, I will the creation of these new Secretary-of-State-directed hope that the Government will bring forward an bodies fix that problem? The answer is that they amendment on Report to address it. I beg to move. cannot. With this Bill the Government are simply creating a new awkward structure of bodies that are Baroness Hamwee: We have a number of amendments one more stage removed from local communities. in this group. Part 6 has been described as “enabling” The system is bureaucratic. What is needed above and “voluntary”. I do not for a moment doubt the all at a time of economic hardship is a flexible, responsive Minister’s intentions, and I thank her and her officials mechanism that allows local authorities to get on with for the helpful meeting that she arranged and for the business of helping their communities rather than providing us with government documents. I do not forcing them to waste time nominating members to sit mean confidential documents; rather, she pointed us on EPBs, which will then talk to RDAs to implement to documents on the website that flesh out the the SNR. What is needed is simplification, flexibility Government’s proposals. However, the provisions do and a return to direct local accountability. not look very voluntary, and what is in the Bill is what matters. I am hoping that the Minister can explain Amendment 183A would remove the power of the what local authorities could not achieve without Part Secretary of State to form economic prosperity boards 6 and without the intervention of the Secretary of and would give it instead to groups of authorities. We State, who pops up in pretty much every clause. It have had many long and interesting debates over the reminds me a little of the Greater London Authority past several weeks about the appropriate role of the Act 1999 in which the Secretary of State is mentioned Secretary of State. I do not need to weary Members of more often than the Mayor of London. the Committee with an exact description of where we This looks rather like back-door local government stand on that; I think they will have a clear idea. reorganisation towards something which is not However, in this part of the Bill the interfering and democratic. We regard these clauses as being quite controlling role of the Secretary of State is particularly insidious. If one accepts the premise of what the intrusive. The Secretary of State should take a back Government are doing, the conditions that are seat and let local authorities act in their own best applied may be sensible, although we would say, “Let interests. The Opposition firmly and fully believe that local authorities work it out for themselves”, because they are capable of doing so. Is that position shared by all this is very top-down. However, the economic the Minister and the Government? prosperity boards look like local authorities in many Amendment 193A would remove the power of the ways, and we all know that if something walks, talks, Secretary of State to make changes to or dissolve and squawks like a duck—and so on. EPBs and give it instead to a vote of the membership. The EPBs can exercise local authority functions. I see that as a necessary and reasonable step. It is for Under the next part of the Bill on multi-area agreements, local authorities to decide with whom they should they are actually within the definition of local authorities, co-operate, not for central Government to dictate but access to information is not automatic, proportionality that. The Secretary of State should not corral local is disapplied and the keeping of records is under the authorities into predetermined groups whose only Secretary of State’s aegis. What is not said, but what relevance is to fit a masterplan in a Whitehall office. those of us of the sceptical tendency say, is that if local authorities do not sign up to all of this they will find Amendment 194 would allow any local authority to that the funding available to them reduces. They will withdraw from an EPB at a time of its choosing. That also be—in fact, they already are—subject to pressure is an obvious consequence of this sequence of from local authorities with a different attitude to life. amendments. If a local authority can be deemed fit, as We are aware of a problem in the south-west, where the Conservative Party believes it should be, to make from some quarters there are proposals for an early its own decisions on co-operation to further its own transfer which would lead to membership very much interests, then it stands to reason that local authorities out of kilter with political representation on a population should be able to determine when those interests are basis. Understandably and appropriately, this is causing not being met, when their goals have been achieved a great deal of concern and real anxiety. and, generally, when it is time to end formal co-operation I assume that Clause 83(1), whereby the Secretary on a particular matter. They must therefore be able to of State can make an order, is technically required withdraw from that co-operation. because of the transfer of functions; that is not the Amendments 194PA, 194VA and 194ZA do much only reference. I look forward to the explanation for the same thing with combined authorities. I apply the that. We do not accept the Government’s premise. same arguments to this area of the Bill, and I am most In Amendment 183F we say that it is up to the interested to hear a clear explanation of how the members to sort out their own constitution. That Government see these combined authorities fitting in amendment implicitly accepts the initial establishment with the explicit aims of the Bill—that is, we were told, by the Secretary of State, which in itself would be a to help local areas out of the Government’s recession considerable concession. Under Amendment 193B to and to improve the accountability of subnational Clause 90 changes would be at the request of the EPB. structures to the local population that they serve. I Amendments 193C and 193D are about the makeup cannot see how these positions can be reconciled with of EPB areas; the Minister will, I know, explain why the content of the Bill as it stands. the amendments are misconceived. Amendments 194W GC 89 Local Democracy[LORDS] Local Democracy GC 90

[BARONESS HAMWEE] Government are serious about EPBs—I think that my and 194X make the same point. Amendment 194M to noble friend would want to listen to this—they should Clause 96 on the preparation for the scheme on review give us some teeth and devolve some powers from is to make that a matter for the majority of members. central government and their agencies so that we can Amendment 194AM makes the same point. Amendment deliver significant changes for our local economy. If 194T again accepts for this purpose that the Secretary we want to tackle the worklessness agenda, we need to of State’s order is needed to establish an EPB. We say get hold of the powers and budgets that the LSC and that the constitution is a matter for the majority of Jobcentre Plus have; we want skills; and we need to be members. I appreciate that a good deal of what I have able make sure that health authorities are directing said begs the question about the weight of votes. I some of their funding to the health issues. I do not see look forward to what Minister has to say on that, anything in this clause. If the Government want people because we can then go at the next stage into the detail to participate, they must think about what is in it for of how some of this would work. The weighting of local authorities so that they might want to get involved votes will be a part of that. in what is, frankly, a bureaucratic organisation. As I Amendment 194AQ is to Clause 109, which enables have said, we will continue to do what we do under our the Secretary of State to make incidental provision. I economic commission—I do not think that we will do not much like it, in particular the extensiveness of form an EPB because there is no point. There would the order whereby the Secretary of State can disapply, be a point if the Government said that we can do repeal or revoke any enactment. I am sure that I shall something as local authorities working together in our be told that this is so closely linked to the first part of area and not having to work through a number of Clause 109 that I should not be too troubled by it, but government agencies. We have an MAA and, quite I am. frankly, it is moving slowly. We want to make sure that we do not go through that loop again. The Government I anticipate that the Minister will explain that my need to rethink these clauses and think about what concern in Amendment 195A is illogical. I had not they can do for local authorities; it should not always intended it to remain, but I thought it better not to try be the other way round. to remove it. Amendment 195B would provide for guidance to an integrated transport authority.I understand that other legislation provides for that. I find it confusing Lord Greaves: I have three clause stand part objections that one needs to go on a treasure hunt for some of in this group of amendments but, having scrutinised these things, but I have no doubt that the Minister will them rather more recently than when I tabled them, I confirm the position. do not know why I object to the clauses. However, in That was something of a Second Reading speech, the mean time, the Conservatives have tabled clause but it amounts to a single, simple point: we do not stand part objections to all the other clauses and, believe that Part 6 should stand part of the Bill. along with my noble friend, I am happy to support the idea that the whole of Part 6 should be removed from the Bill. Lord Smith of Leigh: I apologise for being late for As I said earlier, the Minister reprimanded me the start of the Committee, but I was approving a several meetings and several weeks ago for being rude report for the Greater Manchester authorities on what about some early parts of the Bill, which are ridiculous their attitude should be to EPBs—so it was quite nonsense but not overtly dangerous. However, as it is topical. I therefore need to make sure that I declare my written at the moment, this part of the Bill is potentially interest as chairman of the Association of Greater quite dangerous. I agree with what the noble Lord, Manchester Authorities. The Manchester city regions Lord Smith of Leigh, said about it. There can be no have made a lot of progress recently, but there remain argument about powers being given to local authorities enormous pockets of deprivation. We need to make to work together to do things instead of being instructed sure that the worklessness targets in the MAA can be to do them. The problem with this is that the detail—the met, and we are concerned about the impact of the noble Lord said it is cumbersome—is a kind of strait- current recession. jacket which, once you are in it, you will find it As I said at Second Reading, we have already difficult to get out of. established what appears to be the economic prosperity I did not agree with what the noble Baroness, Lady board. We call it the economic commission. It differs Warsi, said about regions, but that does not make any from what the Government want in that the majority difference as we have come to the same conclusion of its board members come from the private sector. about this part of the Bill. There is no doubt whatever They sit with local authority members and look at that the drive towards democratic regional government whether they can improve the economy of Greater in England has stalled and will be stalled for some Manchester. We have set up an independent review, time. I think it will come back—it has to come back—but which is just about to report. We think that we are it will take some time. When it does come back, I hope accountable, because not only are we accountable to that whoever is in power at the time will not botch it in the local authorities that we represent but also we have the way that the present Government botched it last time. a scrutiny body of the 10 authorities working together. However, that is off the agenda at the moment. We We ought therefore to be seen as a body which are now looking at the fall-out from the sub-national would be an enthusiastic participant in the new EPB review, the latest trendy concept of city regions. These system. However, it is a very cumbersome structure. certainly exist in parts of Britain. You can argue about All I read in these clauses is that powers and functions where these city regions and the real city regions are, come from local authorities and nowhere else. If the but t2he biggest and most obvious city region is the GC 91 Local Democracy[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Local Democracy GC 92 south-east of England. It is not Greater London, it is may well be a new quasi-local authority that is stuck the south-east, but no one will face up to the fact that between the county and district levels. I think that that the capital of this country is closely integrated with would happen in Lancashire and, I suspect, in some of the quarter of the country that forms the south-east. the big shire counties in the south-east around London. Until that nettle is grasped, planning in the south-east People will have to think about where the authority is will never be satisfactory. going. There is no doubt that there is a Greater Manchester As the noble Lord, Lord Smith, said, the functions city region, although it is not as clearly unified as the are all drawn from local authorities. The view of south-east is around London. This is largely because members and officers of district councils who have there is a constellation of large old industrial towns understood what this might be is that it is stripping surrounding Manchester—including Wigan, which the districts of their reason to exist. I am sure that the noble Lord “reigns” over, if that is the phrase. chief executive of Pendle council will not mind if I quote him. He said that it is the “subjugation of Lord Smith of Leigh: “Rains” on. district councils Bill”. Ordinary, non-unitary districts, or shire districts as we used to call them, will never get out; they will be tied in for ever. Lord Greaves: “Operates in” perhaps. These towns The Government say that this system is intended to act as a counterbalance to a centrifugal tendency for devolve more power, but there is no real evidence of everything to be drawn to Manchester. That is quite that. It may concentrate power in a different body but helpful. the power comes from local authorities. The Government In West Yorkshire, the Government try to pretend will say that the system is voluntary, and my noble that there is a Leeds city region. That is a disgraceful friend touched on that. However, I do not believe that concept; as a native Bradfordian, it is an insult to my it will be voluntary; I believe that councils will be native city. I spent my teenage years growing up in bullied into taking part, particularly if it is the one Wakefield, the traditional county town of the West council that does not want to join in or if it is just a Riding, and it is not true to say that these places are small council among big ones. parts of a greater Leeds in the way that Rochdale and I was grateful to the Minister for pointing us to the Stockport accept that they are a part of Greater Policy Document on Options for Sub-Regional Cooperation Manchester. There is a real danger in a one-size-fits-all in the Local Democracy, Economic Development and policy. Once you get away from the big metropolitan Construction Bill. I have a copy of it and there are two regional centres such as Birmingham, Manchester, bits to which I want to draw noble Lords’ attention. Leeds and Newcastle, city regions do not fit; the Paragraph 26 states: economic geography that the Minister refers to is different. The way in which things are run has to be “If groups of local authorities wish to set up a robust and long term governance structure across their area to deliver the improvement adapted and evolved to the economic and social targets agreed to in an MAA, they may wish to consider establishing geographical situation on the ground. There is a real an economic prosperity board across the area”. danger in this attempt to fit a system to all kinds of places where it is not applicable. One cannot argue with that. It then says: Following the noble Lord, I suppose that I should “More information on the links between MAAs with duties and EPBs can be found”, declare some sort of interest relating to this part and the next part of the Bill. I am a member of a council in further on. One cannot argue with the words there but Pendle which has signed up to a multi-area agreement the fact that councils are being pointed to that and are and is currently considering whether to join the rest of told that that is the way forward if they are not the Pennine Lancashire authorities in an economic satisfied with the MAA is a clear indication of the development company. It is actually a city development Government’s thinking. However, much clearer than company but, because east Lancashire is clearly not a that, paragraph 62, right at the end of the document, city region, it has been given a sensible name. Whether states: it is a sensible thing to do is a different matter which I “In order to take full advantage of the devolutionary proposals do not want to discuss here. on offer, city-regions will need to have an effective mechanism in place for taking decisions at that level”. My noble friend said that this is local government reorganisation by the back door and I agree. It is As the noble Lord, Lord Smith, said, it is possible for setting up a new tier of local government—quasi-local councils to do that at the moment if they want to. If authorities. Plainly, structures are needed at different they are sensible, perhaps they will. The paragraph levels but whether we want something that is clearly continues: established as a quasi-local authority is very arguable. “Establishing an EPB would be a way of achieving this and the If it is on top of unitary authorities, then we will be Government has indicated that this would be its preferred mechanism, back to a two-tier system. It looks to me as though we at such time as they become available”. are reinventing the old metropolitan county councils, I do not have to read through the lines there very much and I not sure whether people want that. However, a at all to realise that, when the Government have a structure at that level which is this formal will start to preferred mechanism, they have lots of ways of making accrete powers to itself. It will probably take over the people take part in it. Of course, local authorities can fire authority and perhaps even the police authority, say, “We don’t want to do it; we won’t do it”, but they and it will take over strategic planning powers and so will be left out in the cold with no resources. As a on. That is a real danger unless it is what people want councillor, I cannot go to my electors and say, “As a to do. Where there are two-tier areas in big counties, it matter of principle, we are not going to have all these GC 93 Local Democracy[LORDS] Local Democracy GC 94

[LORD GREAVES] markets. They will be driven by and for local authorities, millions of pounds which were available because we as they show that that is what they want. They will don’t want to do this particular structural thing”. You have to provide the evidence for wanting to do this. It cannot do that. A lot of us have been bullied into will be up to local authorities to determine the area agreeing to large-scale stock transfers of council housing that will be covered, which functions should be passed against our wishes because of the huge amounts of to it, and how it will operate—for example, whether it money that have come in as a result. You cannot fight will set economic strategy for the sub-region or be against that kind of thing—and, if you try to, the involved in delivering programmes and projects. That electors will come along and dump you out. They will choice will be driven by the evidence that will have to say that they are not bothered about these principles; provide that an EPB will bring real economic benefits they are bothered about the fact that they want the beyond those that could be secured by other arrangements. brass. So in practice the Government will get their It will allow councils to direct to their EPB those own way if these things are set up and the legislation is portfolios which are key to the economic development passed. They will go along to Greater Manchester and and regeneration of the area. EPBs are about improving say, “Well, there are these goodies and those goodies the economic prosperity of the area as a whole. and this region and that region”—and the noble Lord, After the sub-national review of 2007 and the Lord Smith, will find himself in a very difficult position. subsequent appetite for local area agreements and He may be able to hold out against it if that is what he MAAs have made it clear that there is a genuine wants to do, but he will find himself in a very difficult appetite in many regions for more strategic capability position. I support the removal of these from the Bill, among groups of local authorities, which they feel will as EPBs are simply not necessary to do what the allow them to have a greater impact on the challenges Government want to do. facing local areas—to take the tough choices and exploit long-term economic possibilities. That creates 6.15 pm the need for more robust frameworks that will make Baroness Andrews: Because of the need to make it that joint working more effective. I shall come to the clear to noble Lords what EPBs are about and why points raised by my noble friend Lord Smith of Leigh they are necessary, I have rather a long speaking note in a moment. for which I apologise in advance. However, I think that Form is dictated by function and the intention of it is very important. One of your Lordships said that taking greater direct advantage of greater freedoms we were looking at a Bill beneath which there is a and flexibilities in investments. They will be corporate commitment to set up an economic prosperity board bodies at the sub-regional level; they will be made up the intentions and scope of which cannot always be of constituent local authorities. They will allow councils explained within the confines of a parliamentary Bill to pool some of their functions, but they will also or in parliamentary language. So I shall take the time enable authorities to work more efficiently; they will to explain what has been in the Government’s mind to help to remove duplication of activity and provide enable this to happen. better value for money. I have been a bit disappointed at the nature of the Noble Lords have asked why MAAs or other bodies language being used—about the Government forcing are not sufficient for the purpose. They may well be local authorities to do this, interfering and controlling sufficient for the purpose that the local authority has local authorities, the creation of bureaucracies, how it in mind, but this is another choice—a choice. Multi-area is unnecessary and so on. The Government are not in agreements have proved very popular; 80 councils the business of doing those things; there would be no have signed up to one of 10 agreements; but they have point. a definite, limited brief. They are collective agreements The noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, got it absolutely between authorities and their partners to deliver right when she asked whether I agreed that local improvement targets in an area. They focus effort on authorities should act in their own interests. Yes, I the priorities for that place and align public sector certainly agree—and the economic prosperity board is organisations towards common goals. However, their an example of how we want local authorities to act in capacity is limited. They do not allow councils to pool their own interest. This part of this Bill and the functions, to seek to direct to win investment directly propositions being put forward are about enabling or to act strategically. Their capacity as a delivery those local authorities that so wish to have some partner is acknowledged to be limited. additional powers to be able to have them. I should ask noble Lords, if there are local authorities that EPBs will enable those local authorities who wish want to do this, for reasons that I shall explain and in to do so, and who can demonstrate the economic the way I shall explain, whether or not they feel that benefits, to take the next step towards more strategic they should stand in the way of local authorities being working. If they do so, they will take that step in the able to do this. knowledge that it involves establishing a legal personality What is the rationale for EPBs? Do they fit into the and governance structure at the sub-regional level. overall pattern of sub-regional provision? What will A lot of pressures now move towards stronger they achieve, and can it be achieved through existing sub-regional working. It is no secret that some of our and more familiar mechanisms? What benefits would city authorities want to work more strategically together. they bring? Let me start with their purpose, which is to Following the Pre-Budget Report, we said that the drive economic development and regeneration across Government would select two pilot city regions. Since a sub-region. As everybody knows, evidence suggests then, we have received 14 expressions of interest in that this is much more likely to reflect real economic being part of that process from 14 sub-regional GC 95 Local Democracy[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Local Democracy GC 96 partnerships. We will work with the pilot city regions funding and other arrangements. The Secretary of to give them greater freedoms and powers over the State will issue guidance on what should be included development of their area than have been available but it is entirely up to the local authorities to design through MAAs, including over issues such as transport, and agree the arrangements. Beyond a few key criteria, employment, skills, housing and planning. We are the Bill is not prescriptive about any arrangements committed to exploring the possibility of devolving that should be made for an EPB, including the functions greater flexibility. that it should have and the activities it will carry out. We cannot deny that that is happening; that is Once the scheme is agreed and published, the Secretary reality. The pilots will take different forms to take into of State will consider whether implementing the scheme account the needs of different areas, but they will need will deliver benefits for the area in question. If that is strong governance arrangements at the sub-regional the case, the Secretary of State will make a statutory level. Several of the leaders of the interested order that will clearly set out all the arrangements for partnerships—not all, but several—have said that they the EPB, such as the constitution, membership and so want to explore the option of economic prosperity on. I think that is fair enough; it is not appropriate for boards, because they will deliver a robust level of a new body of this stature to be established without a governance. Significantly, this direction of travel has clear statement in place of what it will do and how it been welcomed by the LGA, which has said that it will operate, and that is what the statutory order will regards EPBs as a “positive step”. do. On that basis, I hope that the Committee will understand why I cannot accept Amendments 183A Let me address some of the concerns that have and 194PA. surfaced this afternoon. The main concern is that EPBs will in some way be compulsory. It is far from However, a statutory order brings advantages for being an issue of compulsion. I am absolutely happy Members who are concerned with transparency. It to admit that EPBs will not be suitable for every area, means that there can be scrutiny, including by Parliament, or even for most areas. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, of the arrangements. We have provided for such an talked about “one size fits all”. No, we are clear that order to be subject to affirmative procedures, which these are specific new options. Many local authorities will be of interest to the House. The Secretary of State will want to continue working with their neighbours will consult on the order before it is laid, allowing both through MAAs, or not at all, and they are welcome to authorities and others a final opportunity to give their do so. We have heard about the pattern of sub-regional views on the arrangements. arrangements in Essex recently, for example. However, Why not use the model of the economic development an EPB could give some areas another bit of engine company? It has proved useful. EDCs are arm’s-length power to deal with their economic ambitions. It will be companies, although they have their limitations. They up to local authorities to decide whether or not to can bring in specialist professional and organisational enter into an EPB, and to provide the impetus for so skills, they can have both public and private sector doing. representation and they can be an excellent means for The argument has been couched in very emotive securing delivery of complex projects, but accountability language about the Secretary of State forcing, interfering, is weaker than for a local-authority-led body. That is or having a master plan, Whitehall interfering and so not what we want to see; we want to have accountability on. At Second Reading, the noble Lord, Lord Dixon- and democratic strength. Smith, was concerned that the initial proposals for an The Committee has been concerned about a democratic EPB would come from the Secretary of State. That is deficit with regard to the impact and effect on local categorically not the case. The creation and design of authorities. The purpose of these reforms is to give an EPB must be a bottom-up process. It will start with elected councils that choose to go down this route a local review of arrangements for economic development more control, not less, over the economic destinies of started by the local authorities. The second stage will the places they represent. involve local authorities preparing their scheme, identifying the functions and determining their objectives and outcomes. The final, confirmatory element of the Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: I have totally scheme will involve a statutory order by the Secretary followed everything the Minister has said and all the of State, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, said, sweetness and light in terms of the argument, but it is to transfer powers. marginally inconsistent with the principle with regard to district councils being hijacked into being part of a There is no power for the Secretary of State to unitary authority. Even if the district councils were direct any authority to undertake a review. For a against it, they were compelled to become part of such council’s area to be included in a scheme, the authorities an authority against their will by a process that seemed must prepare and publish that scheme. The council extraordinarily short on local democracy, in the context must, in most circumstances, either participate in preparing of the title of the Bill. the scheme or give its express consent that it is happy for that to be done. The only exception is districts where the whole of a county is to be included, and I Baroness Andrews: I am not sure whether the noble shall return to that point when I speak to the next Lord is talking about the process of creating unitary group of amendments. authorities, which was the subject of the Bill two years This scheme will set out how the EPB will operate—it ago, or the debate that we will have on the next set of is nothing to do with the Secretary of State or the amendments regarding the role of districts, when I Government—including its constitutional, membership, hope I can allay his fears on that point. GC 97 Local Democracy[LORDS] Local Democracy GC 98

Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: I will clarify. Lord on that. This is very much work in progress and a When one tries to follow the Government’s logic, one lot will depend on what the EPBs themselves feel they cannot help noticing that there is inconsistency between want, whether it is in relation to negotiations with the Bills. In the context of unitary authorities, as we knew DWP, for example, unemployment strategies, benefit from all the orders that went through this House on strategies and so on. that subject, there was not compliance in the minds of These bodies must be able to show that they are the district authorities concerned with what they were resilient, capable of handling investment, working across being asked to undertake. all the functions which make up our economic prosperity in critical areas of policy, and that they are serious Baroness Andrews: I will not get into that issue, with enough about this new opportunity to commit to respect, because we have had some long debates both working to a long-term statutory arrangement. They in regard to the Bill and the subsequent orders. need to be confident that the EPB will not be expanded I assure the Committee that while the Bill allows or reduced, or have its functions or constitutional local authorities the option of inviting non-local authority arrangements changed, without following a clear process members onto the EPB, for example, there are no which includes the possibility and opportunity for appointments by the Secretary of State and the majority stakeholders to be consulted. It is not sensible to allow of the members must be elected members from constituent a public body such as this to be able to change its authorities. That is where democratic accountability operating arrangements on a whim. I hope that explains lies. Non-local authority members must also be non-voting why I cannot accept Amendments 183F, 193A, 194, unless the voting members decide otherwise. Local 194T, 194VA and 194ZA. authority members are in the driving seat here. We also recognise that it may be necessary to make I know that noble Lords are concerned that we are changes in some circumstances so we have provided a providing for powers to be passed to EPBs from local process for this to happen in Clauses 95 to 97 and in authorities but not from the Secretary of State and Clauses 106 to 108 for the combined authorities. These that we have not provided any specific powers in the clauses will allow any one or more authorities to Bill for any powers of the Secretary of State to be initiate a request for a change to be made to an EPB. passed to EPBs, but that does not mean that we are Amendments 193B, 194M, 194W and 194AM in the not serious about devolution to the sub-regional level. names of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the noble Lord, Lord Tope, seek to alter that and to 6.30 pm require that the EPB itself, or a majority of the members My noble friend Lord Smith asked for teeth. Why of the EPB, request or agree to these changes. But that do we need the legal personality? Why do we need the could put a single council which wished to make ability for this body to be able to direct investment, to changes, including removing itself from the EPB, in a apply for investment and to act as a delivery partner difficult position. We hope that it will always be possible which can work with delivery partners such as the for authorities to reach a consensus on what is best for Homes and Communities Agency? EPBs will enable the area, but allowing a minority of councils to submit the devolution of more and greater powers. They will a revised scheme to the Secretary of State in the case provide a genuinely robust partner at sub-regional of a disagreement provides a fall-back option if a level—not a collection of local authorities and partners consensus cannot be reached. such as the MAA represents, but a delivery partner I know another concern is that EPBs will accrue which will be able to receive and use powers in an powers over time and whittle away the role of individual accountable way. They will be able to establish direct authorities. Again I hope to provide some reassurance. and strong relationships with national and regional Any change in an EPB’s function will need to be agencies, such as the proposed new Skills Funding confirmed through an order made by the Secretary of Agency and the HCA, to ensure that these bodies are State, informed by consultation with local authorities. making the right investments for their areas. As they will be acting as strategic partners and focused on I hope that noble Lords will agree that adequate economic development, they will be capable of driving safeguards are in place to prevent an EPB acting investment, identifying business opportunities and unreasonably in this respect. We are not doing much following them through, and developing labour markets that is new; the process for establishing an EPB is and regeneration. That is why they must be built to deliberately very similar to the process already set out last and why they are a long-term strategy. in the Local Transport Act 2008 for establishing integrated transport authorities, which have replaced the PTAs, for example. It is also possible for such authorities to Lord Greaves: Can the Minister give the Committee be set up across other sub-regional areas where local four, five or six examples of the kind of powers she is authorities wish to strengthen governance arrangements talking about which might be devolved to economic in relation to transport. Our legislation is similar to prosperity boards after they have been set up? She the LTA, whereby it will be possible for the functions waxes lyrical about the fact that they will allow powers of an EPB to be brought together with the functions to be devolved, but we have not yet heard of a single of an ITA, streamlining sub-regional arrangements power that might be devolved. and allowing transport and other economic development decisions to be taken in a co-ordinated way. Provision Baroness Andrews: I have given examples of the for such combined authorities is set out in the second kinds of things we can legitimately expect—for example, half of Part 6. The principles behind EPBs also apply new skills funding. I shall come back to the noble to combined authorities. Such arrangements will be GC 99 Local Democracy[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Local Democracy GC 100 voluntary for local authorities, they will be initiated by I am conscious that I have spoken at great length. I local authorities and they will be established by the thought that the debate deserved a full explanation participating councils. because the Bill is about the main architecture. Clearly, there is an argument about which I hope noble Lords I turn to the remainder of the amendments in this feel more reassured. group, including Amendment 192D, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the noble Lord, Lord Tope. This set of amendments would change the Lord Smith of Leigh: I thank my noble friend for requirements in Clause 89 for an EPB to have to pass a that answer, which has clarified one or two points. In resolution by at least a two-thirds majority to change particular, at the end she described the kind of the name by which it is known. Clause 89 is lifted devolutionary power that she would want to see exercised directly from the provision made in the Local Transport by prosperity boards. However, I am unclear about Act 2008 for integrated transport authorities, and it where the statutory powers are in terms of learning makes sense for there to be similar arrangements. and skills and other functions. If the Government decide that this is a good idea—I hope that they do Amendment 194AQ, tabled by the noble Baroness, decide it is a good idea—where will they get the Lady Hamwee, addresses the Secretary of State’s powers statutory powers to do that if it is not in this Bill? Will under Clause 109 to make incidental, consequential, we have to wait for a further Bill? There is a serious transitional or supplementary provisions that are necessary concern here but we do not want to get into the because of an order confirming an EPB. I understand arguments that we had on the previous debate on why noble Lords may have concerns about this power. Clause 182. I am pleased with the direction of the However, I believe that it is necessary to ensure the thinking expressed by my noble friend but, as I said, effective functioning of EPBs and combined authorities. where will it be possible to transfer the powers? This legislation provides a framework for EPBs and combined authorities and does not set out any of the detail. This is because different places will have different Lord Greaves: The noble Lord, Lord Smith, has just requirements and will wish to pursue different objectives. asked my first question, so I will not ask it again. I am We must give authorities as much flexibility as possible not clear what progress has been made with integrated when it comes to preparing their schemes. transport authorities. Are they are in the process of being set up following the passage of the Local Transport Therefore, we cannot cover every eventuality and Act last year? How many places are trying to set them instead we have provided a reserve power in Clause up? How long will the process take? Again, it is very 109 whereby the Secretary of State can make changes odd how the Government put a system in place, and that would allow local authorities to design and establish then, before anything happens, they jump on to another an EPB that meets their reasonable requirements. There stage and move forward. So my question is: where will is nothing more sinister than that; it is a very benign, integrated transport authorities be in, say, two or three but necessary power, and there is similar precedent in years’ time if the people who are discussing them at the Local Transport Act 2008 in relation to ITAs. The the moment all succeed in setting them up? Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee was content with Clause 109. I hope that that will satisfy noble Lords. Baroness Andrews: I shall have to write to the noble Lord about what stage ITAs are at. I am not sufficiently With regard to the remainder of the amendments in well sighted on this to know the answer, but I will write this group—Amendments 195, 195A, 195B, 193C, to him with pleasure before Report. 193D, 194X and 194XA—I believe that I addressed all The transfer of statutory powers will depend on the points raised in those amendments in the letter exactly what we are talking about in terms of the that I wrote to noble Lords. I will double-check Hansard transfer of investment or policy levers and so on. This tomorrow. If I have not addressed those points, I will is very much work in progress, so I shall try to write to come back and make sure that the noble Baroness the noble Lord about that. We may not be able to give receives a proper response. a very full answer before Report but I will certainly Finally, on the matter that the noble Lord, Lord share our thinking with noble Lords on the sort of Greaves, raised with me, I reiterate that essentially a powers that might be anticipated. local authority which chooses to go down the route of creating an EPB will do so in the full knowledge of Baroness Hamwee: The noble Lord asked an absolutely what that involves. It will be certain about what it has pertinent, central question. If government thinking to provide by way of evidence to satisfy the argument has not got far enough for that question to be answered that this extra legal personality and power is what is in a pretty detailed fashion, I do not think that the needed to achieve what the authority wants to achieve Government have any business asking us to prepare for the region. There will be other choices—this is one the groundwork for it. of several—but the powers that could be given to EPBs include, as discussed in the PBR, greater powers over employment, skills, housing and transport, greater Baroness Andrews: That is slightly harsh. It depends responsibility over funding streams, and the city-regions on the EPB in question. Let us assume that an EPB is process allows us to try to test that. All this will be set up and that it wants to draw down additional driven by what partnerships ask for—what they seek powers. It is possible that there will be issues about to achieve—and the powers will have to be tested in third-level benefits, for example. It may want to establish that context. a relationship with the DWP or in relation to skills GC 101 Local Democracy[LORDS] Local Democracy GC 102

[BARONESS ANDREWS] I will read in Hansard the detail given by the Minister funding. I hope that everyone in the Committee will today, but the feeling around the Committee is that we understand that the nature of the powers will depend are likely to return to this matter on Report. At this on the nature of the functions that are sought. Because stage, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. the scope is very wide, at this point we cannot give categorical answers. However, this is clearly a fundamentally important issue. Amendment 183A withdrawn.

Baroness Hamwee: I understand that but I think Amendment 183B that the noble Baroness started by explaining the Moved by Lord Greaves support that this proposal has from the Local Government Association. If that is the case, one would have thought 183B: Clause 83, page 52, line 15, leave out “prosperity” and that the debate would have progressed somewhat. Before insert “regeneration” someone puts this to me, I have to say that we might well have objected to some of those powers being devolved in such a way, but we need to know what we Lord Greaves: This is a fairly simple matter. I shall are talking about. speak also to Amendment 194Q, which is in the same group. These amendments concern the names of the 6.45 pm economic prosperity boards and the combined authorities. The combination of the two is bizarre. The Government Lord Greaves: Did the Minister say that there might propose to set up what they say will be the saviour of be different levels of benefit in different areas? city regions or other areas called economic prosperity boards and they will then give the opportunity for Baroness Andrews: No. economic prosperity boards to amalgamate with integrated transport authorities. Then the super-economic prosperity boards can be called combined authorities. Lord Greaves: I misunderstood then. I am conscious that I am trying to help the Government to give them more sensible names and not be quite so Baroness Andrews: If the noble Lord looks at the silly, which I do not really want to do with these PBR Statement, the options under consideration are bodies, because I would rather that they just disappeared set out clearly. That will give him a clear idea of what I altogether. Names matter. “Economic prosperity board” was saying. is a silly name because it risks being rubbished in a big way fairly soon after it is set up when it does not It is worth saying that much of the debate about produce economic prosperity overnight, or even over city regions has been about the nature of the powers five or 10 years. We should not name a body such as and the scope that city regions themselves may want to this by our hoped-for outcome; we should name it by explore. It is very much a live debate. its function. I therefore suggest “economic regeneration board”, which is what it is. “Combined authority” is Baroness Warsi: I thank the Minister for what can just a daft name, for which I suggest “economic and only be described as a valiant and passionate defence transport board”. If the Government cannot think of of economic prosperity boards. I am sure that it is not a better name than “combined authority”, I can just due to the Minister’s response but down to my imagine trying to explain it to everyone in Greater understanding that I am left at the end of this debate, Manchester, if they get one of these things, with its 55 minutes into discussion of this part, no clearer as to name, “Greater Manchester Combined Authority”, the exact role that the economic prosperity boards will up in lights on its building. On the other hand, it may play compared with the work being done by local invent a modern, trendy name and call itself, for authorities and RDAs and how specifically in the example, “Come and Go”. I remember the bus company current economic climate they will make a difference. in Manchester calling itself SELNEC. Nobody knew When government funding is under pressure, and when what SELNEC was, but because it was on all buses, local authorities want the Government to respond to people knew that it was the name of the bus company. local needs, and regions up and down the country are A combined authority will not have buses running facing different challenges posed by the current recession, everywhere—or perhaps it will. Who knows? Perhaps it is unclear how economic prosperity boards will it will go back to SELNEC. But they are silly names. make the situation better. I beg to move. The role of regional development authorities was, among other things, to consider the development of regions, to be flexible, responsive and aware, and in Baroness Andrews: Combined authorities will be a some ways to be ready to respond to the current combination of EPBs and integrated transport authorities. economic situation, but they have not managed to do The noble Lord raises a good point, which I shall so. I question the role of the economic prosperity consider again. boards. Their composition, how they will work, when The reason that the Bill includes prosperity boards they will be set up and how they will be funded are as rather than the noble Lord’s suggestion of economic yet unclear. They are the elephant in the room that is regeneration boards is that EPBs may well be involved not needed and they will be delivered far too late to be in regeneration, but they have to do other things as of any use in the current situation. well. They are about increasing economic prosperity GC 103 Local Democracy[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Local Democracy GC 104 as a whole, so I am afraid that I cannot give the noble Amendment 194G amends Clause 94; it would Lord as much comfort on that as I can on the combined remove the requirement that the Secretary of State’s authorities. order has, “regard to a scheme prepared and published under”, the previous clause. I accept that that is perhaps an Lord Greaves: I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. overreaction because of my concerns about the imposition of the scheme, so let me frame the justification for the Amendment 183B withdrawn. amendment by asking the Minister to confirm that the provision is merely saying that the scheme would be designed and then franked by the Secretary of State Amendment 183C and nothing more. Moved by Baroness Hamwee Amendment 194AG would be the same amendment 183C: Clause 83, page 52, line 27, at end insert “with the relating to a combined authority. Amendment 194H participation and consent of each local government area” would require the Secretary of State to publish her reasons for the establishment of the EPB. Amendment 194AH is the same amendment for a combined authority. Baroness Hamwee: I shall give the numbers of our Finally, Amendment 194V would mean that any provisions amendments in this large group as I go through it. The or conditions that apply to orders regarding the EPB group is about the role of local authorities. The first should apply in the case of combined authorities. amendment, Amendment 183C, is to Clause 83. It I beg to move. would provide that the establishment of EPBs required the participation and consent of each local government area; that is, all the areas meeting the conditions listed Lord Greaves: I have one or two amendments in this in the clause. Amendment 194R would provide the group. They are all essentially about the same issue, same in the case of what I shall have to call a combined which is closely related to the questions just raised by authority for the moment. The amendment must speak my noble friend Lady Hamwee—that is, the extent to for itself about participation and consent. which the setting up and review of EPBs, their dissolution and changes to them, will be imposed on particular Amendment 183E would provide that, before making councils, to the extent to which they will be bottom-up an order, the Secretary of State must consult the local or top-down. government areas in question and specifically—this goes to the point of the boards—consult, Amendment 194D would require the consent of each authority to its inclusion in the area of a review. “as to the effectiveness and efficiency of arrangements to promote Amendment 194E refers to Clause 93(3)(b), which economic development and regeneration within their areas”, says that the review into setting up a new scheme, determine that an EPB would be likely to improve them, and then, “may include one or more other local government areas”. In other words, the councils carrying out the review “publish his determination with reasons”. can decide to review other council areas even if that I think that it will be obvious from the debate so far council does not want to be and does not agree to be that not only are we opposed to the whole scheme for included. That seems outrageous and simply ought reasons of it being local government reorganisation by not to take place. It is arguable that the Government the back door, its lack of democracy and so on but have the right to do this if they are reorganising local also we are sceptical as to whether it is the right way to government in a particular area, but the idea that a approach the matter. group of councils should be able to review an area that It might be said that if local authorities want an includes some of their neighbours who are hostile to EPB, they should have one and that Amendment 183E the review and do not want anything to do with it is would be telling the Secretary of State to go where she undemocratic and, in any case, is likely to result in an should not tread. That would not be the case. It is no enormous amount of friction. answer to say that local authorities want one, because Amendment 194N similarly refers to changes to that answer is likely to be incomplete. There will be a existing EPB arrangements and requires the consent variety of views across a wide spectrum. A step as of all the local authorities. Amendment 194AJ applies extreme as transferring local authority powers requires the same thinking to a combined authority area. reasoned justification. Amendment 194AD requires a council’s consent to its Amendment 194S is the same amendment applied inclusion in a review of a combined authority area. to combined authorities. Amendment 188B would The amendments are all on the same lines and basically require the agreement of all authorities affected to the state that local authorities have the right to refuse, if transfer of functions to the EPB or allowing the EPB they wish, to take part in any of these procedures. to exercise functions in addition to the local authorities. Again, Amendment 194U would apply that to combined 7pm authorities. Amendment 194F is an amendment to Clause 93, subsection (6) of which appears to enable Baroness Andrews: I set out in some detail and at county councils to ride roughshod over the districts in some length on the previous group of amendments their area if all the districts are within the scheme. This how we see EPBs working and how they will be driven seems inappropriate, to use a mild term. Again, and designed by the authorities involved. If the authorities Amendment 194AF would apply the same provision decide to proceed to a scheme, it will set out all the in the case of a combined authority. details of how the EPB will operate. We would certainly GC 105 Local Democracy[LORDS] Local Democracy GC 106

[BARONESS ANDREWS] combined authority. As I have set out, the key decision expect the authorities who are leading the preparation point is when the scheme is completed and authorities of a scheme to consult widely and to undertake detailed which have not been involved in its preparation give negotiations with all the authorities covered by the their consent to be included. scheme to ensure that they are content. I genuinely Amendments 183C and 194R, tabled by the noble believe that some of the worst case scenarios that the Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the noble Lord, Lord Committee has just addressed will not arise. In practice, Tope, would require that every local authority be the scheme will be prepared by an existing sub-regional involved in preparing the scheme for an EPB or combined group made up of representatives of the relevant authority and they must give their consent to it. My authorities. That process should lead to all the authorities concern here is that it may be unduly onerous to insist being content and accommodated in the final scheme. that every authority is involved in preparing the scheme. However, Clause 93 additionally provides that to be It also does not seem necessary to insist that local included in a final published scheme an authority authorities additionally give their consent if they have must either have participated in preparing the scheme been involved in preparing, consulting on and drawing or have given its explicit consent to be included. The up the proposal, because by “participation” we mean only exception is that where the whole of a county’s not just minimal participation but full and meaningful area is to be included in the scheme, where only the involvement in preparing the scheme. We expect the county has to give its consent. That exception flows provision to be interpreted in that way, and we will from similar legislation in the Local Transport Act for make that clear in guidance. ITAs. Amendments 188B, 194D, 194E, 194J, 194N, 194V, I take the argument, forcefully put by the noble 194AD, 194AE, 194AJ and 194AN address variations Lord, Lord Greaves, that it is often at district level that of the same theme. They seek to provide further economic issues bite and are addressed. It would opportunities for local authorities to give their consent obviously be right, proper and preferable for district to the arrangements for an EPB or combined authority councils to play a full role in any sub-regional working. relating to their area—for example, providing that We do not intend that any council should be forced they must give their consent for their area to be into an EPB. EPBs are about consent and the cementing included in the review, to the functions that will be of partnerships working at the sub-regional level. They given to the EPB and to the order that initially creates are unlikely to be effective if some authorities are not the new body. Our view, in relation to these amendments, fully behind the arrangements. As I said, we therefore is that by agreeing to the scheme for the EPB the want district councils to play a full role in any sub-regional authorities will be agreeing to all the arrangements working that takes place between authorities. that go with it—that is, the functions and constitutional We expect that any districts that do not wish to arrangements. Being included in the review area, to participate in an EPB would not be included in its pick up on the point made by the amendment of the area. That would mean that only part of a county noble Lord, Lord Greaves, will not affect the authority would be covered by the EPB. Where the participation unless it later agrees to be part of the scheme, so it of the district is vital in securing an effective EPB, the does not seem necessary to also insist that the authorities negotiations will be very pragmatic and continue until agree to their area being included in the review. Separate an arrangement can be found that is acceptable to all agreement to the Secretary of State’s order is also parties. unnecessary; it will be presumed, as the order will be designed to implement the scheme. Amendments 194F and 194AF would remove the possibility of a county deciding, without the consent Amendments 194G and 194AG would remove the of each of its districts, to enter an EPB. I have listened requirement in Clause 94 for the Secretary of State to and heard very clearly the degree of concern on this have regard to the scheme prepared by the local authorities. point but, for the reasons I have given, this is something We have had a debate around the role of the Secretary of a false issue. I believe that the exception in Clause of State and of the order, and I addressed these issues 93(6) would rarely, if ever, be used. I cannot promise earlier on. I hope that in the interests of making that we will accommodate those concerns but I am progress the Committee will accept what I said earlier prepared to give more consideration to the role of on that point. districts in agreeing a scheme that covers their area Amendment 183E to Clause 83 would add even if the whole of the county is included. requirements on the Secretary of State to consult local Amendments 187D and 187F in the name of the authorities and to determine whether an EPB would noble Lord, Lord Greaves, would require any district be likely to deliver improvements to the economy. council whose area was covered by an EPB to have a These additions are not required as they would duplicate representative on the membership. I agree that that similar requirements that have already been placed on should be possible but I am not convinced that it the Secretary of State in Clause 94. Due to Clause 94, should be mandatory as it might lead to the EPB it will not be possible for the Secretary of State to being too large to be effective. However, there is nothing establish an EPB without considering that it is likely to stop all districts being represented if that is what the to improve the economy in the area or without consulting authorities decide between them. Membership is a the local authorities involved. matter for the EPB concerned. Amendment 183E would also require the Secretary Noble Lords have tabled a number of amendments of State to publish reasons for deciding to make an that would increase and strengthen the point at which order about any particular EPB. A similar point is authorities must give their consent to an EPB or a made by Amendments 194H and 194AH for combined GC 107 Local Democracy[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Local Democracy GC 108 authorities. We will expect the Secretary of State to Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: I apologise to publish the reasons for her decision. In practice, that the Minister for having interrupted her speech earlier decision will surely not come as a surprise to the when she was developing a thoroughly coherent argument. authorities because the process of developing an EPB In the light of the questions asked from my left, I will involve ongoing dialogue between the authorities cannot help remarking that in the previous legislation involved and all the partners, which will include central to which I alluded, district councils were not given the government; so there is little chance of a scheme being ability to remain out of a unitary authority. The submitted that is likely to be rejected. It is difficult to unitary authority was carried through by central provide for ongoing discussion in legislation, but we government—admittedly in collaboration with the county will attempt to set out our expectations about that council—in such a way that the structure was altered. process more clearly when publishing guidance for It is that inconsistency with what is being proposed local authorities on the process for establishing an now that makes one mildly suspicious of the process. EPB. I am conscious that I have addressed those groups Baroness Hamwee: I, too, am very grateful for the of amendments quite swiftly. If Members of the Minister’s undertaking to look at the position of the Committee do not feel that I have done them justice, I districts. That goes to the heart of a great deal of our will be happy to write to them with further detail on concern—not all of it, but much of it. I beg leave to any additional points. withdraw the amendment.

Lord Greaves: I am grateful to the Minister for Amendment 183C withdrawn. responding, particularly on an amendment that, with all this Alphabetti Spaghetti before my eyes, I forgot to Amendment 183D speak to. I would like to pick her up on something she said about it. Moved by Lord Greaves I am grateful that she said she would look again at 183D: Clause 83, page 52, line 30, at end insert “, other than a the position of districts in two-tier areas. It is more non-unitary district council” than just the specific question of whether they are automatically members of the economic prosperity Lord Greaves: I shall speak to Amendment 187B board in their area. and the other amendments in the group, except On a whole series of issues, the Bill does not recognise Amendment 187C, which I think is in the wrong or take account of the real role that district councils in group. They are essentially all the same amendment. some counties play in economic development and The amendments are really intended to probe where regeneration in their area. It is true that district councils an EPB is likely to be and where it will fit within vary across the country probably more than any other existing structures. We mentioned this briefly but I do type of council. Some districts still do not get involved not think that we have had any sort of explanation in such things; others are the powerhouse more than is from the Government of where they think they should be. the county; then there are those in between. It is vital that districts are properly integrated if this is to happen. Are EPBs basically structures that will sit on top of existing unitaries and county councils? In other words, Where a whole county is in the EPB and the districts will they be groupings of top-tier authorities or might are not members, which the Bill provides for at the they in some circumstances sit between a county council moment, will the districts have powers taken from and its districts, providing a sort of third tier of them into the EPB, or will they simply be discounted? governance, to use a fairly neutral term, between the Secondly, under those circumstances, would districts county and the districts? Is that possible? In some be required to pay money over to the EPB to help to areas, might they sit on top of the top tier of unitaries fund it? as a tier of governance above them, or wider than them, and in other cases might they sit between the Baroness Hamwee: Can the Minister answer the county and its districts as a third tier of governance at question not just as would but could? In other words: an intermediate level? I have tabled this group of whether the power is there, not just what is the amendments to probe this issue. I beg to move. Government’s intention. 7.15 pm Baroness Andrews: My understanding— Baroness Andrews: I was not expecting that question to be asked in relation to this group of amendments, so I shall simply have to answer by saying what I Lord Tope: Which is getting better. believe to be the case. There is, in any case, some important information that I should like to convey. Baroness Andrews: Yes, which is getting clearer by The noble Lord has helped to explain why these groups the minute. My understanding is that districts could of amendments seem to be moving in opposite directions, be members, but they do not have to be. Legally, they asking for contradictory things. could have their functions taken away on that basis, With regard to Amendments 193F, 194B, 194Z and but clearly, we do not want that. I have said that I will 194AB, I am prepared to give more thought to the role take away the issue of where districts sit in the of districts in relation to changing the boundaries of arrangements and I am happy to do so. EPBs or combined authorities. Those amendments GC 109 Local Democracy[LORDS] Local Democracy GC 110

[BARONESS ANDREWS] EPB. I am grateful for the Minister’s long explanation. picked out some issues relating to boundaries, so I will My only quibble with it is her unwillingness to call the look at the role and status of districts and also at the EPBs tiers. I do not know why “tier” is inappropriate. issues relating to boundaries. “Tier” is used in this country for tiers of government Amendment 183D and the consequent amendments or governance. We also have a national tier, a European would remove the possibility that only part of a county tier,. devolved tiers in Scotland, Wales and Northern council—that is, some but not all of the non-unitary Ireland, various tiers of local government and a regional districts in a county—could be part of an EPB. As I tier of governance within some of the institutions we said before, EPBs are very much about trying to have been talking about today and which will develop improve outcomes by allowing economic development as a result of the Bill. It is therefore perfectly legitimate activity to be more effectively co-ordinated across a to talk about tiers of governance and government. It is functional area. absolutely clear that the Government are inserting new tiers of corporate authorities which, as my noble That leads me to make a very important point. friend said some hours ago, look to us very like local EPBs and combined authorities are not measures to authorities except that they are not democratic. I beg make changes to local authority boundaries. It has leave to withdraw Amendment 183D. been said that this is local government reorganisation by the back door, but it certainly is not. EPBs are based on existing local government boundaries. We Amendment 183D withdrawn. obviously have different mechanisms if we want to change boundaries and whole local authority areas Amendments 183E and 183F not moved. will come together in EPBs. By constricting the areas to only counties or unitary authorities, the amendments Clause 83 agreed. of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, would significantly reduce the ability of EPBs to pick up the sub-regional Clause 84 : Constitution economic geographies, which will be very different in different regions. Districts in any one county will often fall into different sub-regional economies. Therefore, Amendment 184 we have to allow for flexibility here, and it does not Moved by Baroness Warsi seem to be helpful to prevent a particular district, if it wishes to do so, aligning itself in an EPB with an area 184: Clause 84, page 52, line 35, leave out “by order make that is strongly connected to its own, even if it does provision” and insert “issue guidance” not make sense for the county as a whole. The county council should obviously be involved in making decisions Baroness Warsi: I shall speak also to Amendments about an area for which it has responsibility. We are 185 to 188 inclusive. This group of amendments concerns looking for very pragmatic and sensible arrangements the constitution of economic prosperity boards. Clauses 84 here. and 86 as drafted would allow the Secretary of State I should also point out that, if only part of a county to impose a managerial structure on to EPBs and enters into an EPB, all the districts within that part influence membership, voting powers and executive will have to give their express consent. We have discussed arrangements. It will therefore come as no surprise to it before and I return to that point. noble Lords that we are not at all pleased with these How will EPBs sit and what tier of authority will arrangements. they be? I am not sure that it is very helpful to think in Once again, the Secretary of State is reserving for terms of tiers. We are looking for these functional herself the right to micromanage and direct things to bodies to be alongside local authorities and doing her liking. Once again, I struggle to see how this state different things, but they will essentially draw on the of affairs can be compatible with a desire to pass more powers that they need to deliver economic objectives. power back to local communities. I have tried to Essentially, EPBs allow local authorities to be together. reconcile these clauses with the Minister’s enthusiasm Where they will sit within the range of descriptions for empowering local people, but creating economic that noble Lords offered will depend on the authorities prosperity boards to which local authorities can appoint involved. They may sit at different positions. They are some members but where it ultimately remains in the a mechanism for collaboration between and across gift of the Secretary of State to determine how many existing tiers, and that is the best way to think of them. of those members there can be, how they can vote and We want to give local authorities as much flexibility what their executive arrangements should be, seems to as possible to form arrangements. To make it impossible be an exercise more in empowering the Secretary of for non-unitary districts to recognise their economic State than in empowering local communities. I am links, as I have said previously, seems to be sure that noble Lords will be intrigued to hear how the counterproductive. However, on the broader point to Minister squares this circle. I do not simply wish to which the noble Lord addressed his amendments, I hear more about how the EPBs will operate in practice— hope that he is satisfied by my rather pragmatic response. although I would be delighted to hear that, too—but to hear how these top-down arrangements can possibly Lord Greaves: I think that I understand the answer. be presented as a measure to empower local communities. The board could sit either on top of all the top-tier In my own efforts to square this circle, I have authorities or below counties and above districts. However, proposed Amendment 184, which would provide for it could be a combination of the two if unitaries, the Secretary of State to issue guidance on an EPB’s counties and districts were taking part in the same constitution but not to dictate it. GC 111 Local Democracy[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Local Democracy GC 112

My other amendments in this group focus on the Apart from expenses to get to meetings and so on, why membership of an economic prosperity board. It should, do elected councillors on these boards, who in the as I have said, be a matter for the local councils to set nature of things will probably be council leaders, need, these schemes up. Therefore, I question why there need “remuneration … and pensions or allowances”? to be non-elected members, even if they do not have I do not understand that; I do not understand why full voting rights. That is the reasoning behind people are getting pensions for being on these bodies, Amendments 185 and 186, on which Amendment 186 since I do not know of any councils that provide is consequential. pensions to their members. Amendment 187 suggests that the political make-up of the economic prosperity board should reflect the local authorities of which it is made up. The noble Lord Tope: Yes, they do—including mine, I am Baroness, Lady Hamwee, has refined that further with pleased to say. her Amendment 187A. The point that we are both trying to make is that if there is to be a new tier of Lord Greaves: There may be some. Are there? There local government, there is no justifiable reason why it are none in my experience. should be of a different political form from the council from which it derives its democratic legitimacy. These Lord Smith of Leigh: You must have missed one of are not particularly contentious suggestions and I the Bills. hope that the Minister will look on them favourably when she re-examines the whole of this part of the Bill before Report. I beg to move. Lord Greaves: Yes, I have obviously missed something. There are obviously councillors sat around this Table Baroness Hamwee: I part company with the noble looking forward to their fat pensions when they get Baroness only on her optimistic analysis that this booted off the council. That is not a world in which I matter is not contentious. We have put our names to live and I do not think that it exists in Lancashire. But Amendment 184, whereby guidance could be issued, I have learnt something by putting down this amendment. rather than for all of this to be subject to order-making The amendment probes what kind of remuneration powers. It has just occurred to me that it may be that and allowances will be expected for people sitting on order-making powers are required for the matters these bodies. There is a general view that some councillors dealt with by this group of amendments, because this who sit on all kinds of bodies and partnerships and is local government reorganisation, although we have the rest of it get rather more money than they ought to been assured that it is not. nowadays. This seems to me to be adding to that. This Amendments 184A, 185B, 187E and 188A are may be a minority and unpopular view among some consequential on that. Regarding Amendment 185A, I Members of this Committee, but it is certainly my am curious as to why it is necessary to make orders view and I shall continue arguing the case. about executive arrangements. The implication is that these will be imposed and that the EPB will be very There is the question of remuneration of non- like the Government’s model of a local authority. We councillors and who they might be. My noble friend have tabled Amendment 187A, which as the noble asked who they would be if they were not councillors. Baroness has said would amend her Amendment 187, I shall tell you who they will be—the modern version not because we disagree with it, but merely because we of aldermen. They will be unelected people appointed wish to build on it by extending proportionality when by members of a quasi-local authority, sitting as members there is a representative council under Clause 85(3). of that quasi-local authority. They will be just like The amendment is for completeness. aldermen of the past, expect that I do not think that aldermen of the past ever got paid any money. We also have our names to the noble Baroness’s Amendment 186. If the members of the board are not I turn to what the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, councillors, who do the Government expect they will said—I almost called her a councillor; I was upgrading be? We have the example of regional development her. My heart warms when I listen to the noble Baroness, agencies which are dominated by individuals who as the Conservative spokesman here, trumpeting the come from different backgrounds. This is particularly values of devolution, local democracy, community important because we are talking about local authority government and so on. I hope that she speaks for the functions which may be carried out by individuals Conservative Party and I hope that if the Conservative who are not democratically elected. I come back to my Party ever gets the opportunity to do anything about point about this issue being, in our eyes, local government it, it sticks to the kind of principles that she is putting reorganisation. forward, because it is not what we have been hearing from the Conservative Party for the past 30-odd years. Lord Greaves: I have Amendment 184B in this However, the last great flowering of local democracy group, which is to probe Clause 84(2)(b), which states: and the last occasion when central government put “The provision that may be made about membership includes real trust in the councils was the Local Government provision about … the remuneration of, and pensions or allowances Act 1972 and the reorganisation of 1973 and 1974. It payable to or in respect of, any member of the EPB”. might not have got the structures right in all cases, but To some extent my amendment follows the comments it was an expression of confidence and trust in an just made by my noble friend Lady Hamwee about the elected local government. It has been downhill all the members of the EPB who will not be elected councillors. way since then, through Governments of all persuasions, Is it expected that their remuneration will be the same so I wish the noble Baroness the very best of luck in as members of the board who are elected councillors? keeping her party on the right track. GC 113 Local Democracy[LORDS] Local Democracy GC 114

Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: I apologise to Baroness, Lady Warsi, was concerned about this at the Minister, but my intervention is prompted partly Second Reading. I reassured her then and I reassure by what the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, has just said. I her again. shall not prolong this debate by uttering a word on I can deal with Amendments 184, 184A, 187E and that subject, save to say that I shall have a private 188A quite swiftly by confirming that while the conversation with the noble Lord about the internal membership and other constitutional arrangements arrangements of the Conservative Party at a later date for an EPB should be set out in a statutory order as and outside. confirmation, for all the reasons I gave earlier, rather A wise man once said in Latin, although I am than being left to guidance, the membership of an certain I would be ruled out of order if I quoted the EPB will be decided by the group of local authorities Latin: that wish to establish an EPB and will be set out in “Him whom god wishes to destroy, he first makes mad”. their scheme. This is not micromanagement. The scheme In the case of “him” I am alluding to the present should include details of how the members will be Administration. I am not in any way alluding to the appointed, what type of members will be permitted Minister as their living representative in this Chamber. and the voting powers that will be given to different But throughout my life I have been brought up to types of member. Likewise, in relation to Clause 84(2) believe that the lower in an organisation, entity or and Amendment 184B, tabled by the noble Lord, Administration decisions were made, the better and Lord Greaves, just as the local authorities themselves healthier those decisions are likely to be. That may will determine the membership arrangements, so they make me in sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord will determine the remuneration arrangements of members Greaves. The problem with the part of the Bill that we of the EPB. It will be entirely up to them what they are discussing is that that patently is not the case want to do and what is appropriate. because of the powers that the Secretary of State is Clause 84(4) details what provision may be made going to retain. In that respect the Bill is internally about the executive arrangements of an EPB. The inconsistent and incoherent. The first part of the Bill effect of Amendment 185A would be to remove any was devoted to teaching us that we should be teaching information in the Bill about what “executive the world, in our various communities, about the arrangements” meant or what they included. The noble powers of local government and how they work. The Baroness, Lady Hamwee, raised an important question complications that are writ large in this part of the Bill here, but, as with many of these clauses, there is a are just another part of the agenda that is going to precedent for our approach in the Local Transport have to be explained to voters so that they can understand Act 2008. Our view is that the executive arrangements how things work—and, frankly, we would be better off are important and should be transparent. That is why without them. The Bill is gradually on the way to it is necessary to include details of what they can and becoming a municipal oxymoron. cannot cover in legislation. Similarly, Amendment 185B, laid by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the noble Lord, Lord Tope, would remove from the Bill Baroness Andrews: I hope that noble Lords will take the stipulation that the EPB’s budget must be agreed the time to read what I have said in response to the by the EPB itself and not delegated. That is an important amendments today on this part of the Bill. I am deeply safeguard; it should be mandatory, and needs to appear disappointed and depressed by the parallel universe in in legislation. which we seem to be living and by the fact that what I Amendments 185, 186 and 188 would prevent any say about the arguments that are put to me does not non-local authority members being on the EPB. The seem to be sinking in at all. issue is about who will sit on the EPB. The noble Lord, The Bill is for local authorities. It is not a Bill where Lord Greaves, said that it will be alderman. However, the Secretary of State has powers to impose anything as I said before, the majority of EPBs will be local on local authorities; it is about local authorities finding authority-led and will have elected members of local their own best route to developing the economic potential authorities, and that will provide the accountability. of their areas. The two parts of the Bill are perfectly But we want them to have the flexibility to have a consistent. We are about both promoting democracy board that is right for the constituent authorities and and giving local authorities more powers, greater for the task in hand, and additional members may autonomy, greater flexibility and greater freedoms to bring specialist expertise. achieve what they need to meet the challenge of the economic and social situation, not only for the next Lord Greaves: Can the Minister tell us, as a matter year but for the foreseeable future. We will need every of principle, why local authority functions should be instrument at our disposal at local and regional level decided by unelected people? to make the necessary choices, based on intelligence. I hope that noble Lords will do me the courtesy of Baroness Andrews: The majority of people on this reading what I have said in response to their arguments board will be elected members of the authorities. We in the course of this afternoon. are saying that they should have the freedom and The noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, said that it should flexibility, if they so choose, to bring alongside them be a matter for local government to set up EPBs. Yes, people who will help them to achieve their objectives. and it is. I confirm again that it is not our intention for They could be, for example, people with medical expertise central government to make any appointments to or employment expertise; it will be entirely up to the EPBs; rather, the membership arrangements should be EPB. They could even be drawn from local authorities a matter for the local authorities involved. The noble in adjoining areas so that there is a wider scope of GC 115 Local Democracy[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Local Democracy GC 116 interest. Precedence for this approach can be found in This is a serious request, because the problems that the membership of the national park authorities, the this side of the Committee has with this part of the joint police authorities, the integrated transport authorities Bill are perfectly obvious. The further the Government and the leaders’ boards. Amendment 186 would remove can go in justifying the way in which they are setting that flexibility. about this, the greater the chance they will have of it On Amendment 188, we want to keep the subsections sticking. At the moment, there is not that much of a because they mirror provisions made for ITAs in the chance. Local Transport Act 2008. They are designed to ensure that EPBs are local authority-led by restricting the Baroness Warsi: The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, voting rights of non-local authority members, but went to the nub of the issue. I am sure that the again they give local authorities the freedom, if they intention behind these clauses is right; the Minister so wish, to make the change to amend that. Again, the has again passionately explained it. However, the clauses intention is to provide flexibility. It is not something as they are drafted do not reflect that intention, especially the Secretary of State will determine but something Clause 84 on the constitution and the roles of the the authorities may find helpful. Secretary of State. I ask the Minister to take them Amendment 185 would also remove the flexibility back and look at whether we could draft them in for local authorities to give different weights to different another way. kinds of members if they wished to do so. They may I thank the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, for saying wish, for example, to give more weight to the votes of that his heart warms when I speak—I am not sure that authorities which represent larger populations. It will many Liberal Democrats can say that. be up to them. Amendment 187 provides that the membership of Lord Greaves: To save the noble Baroness’s an EPB should be politically representative. That is embarrassment, perhaps I may say that it was to her added to by Amendment 170A. I support the intention words that I was referring rather than her person— behind the amendment. Local authorities will be subject although I am sure that she is a delightful person. to the rules on political balance set out in the Local Government and Housing Act 1989 when they appoint members to an EPB. Indeed, by virtue of paragraph Baroness Warsi: I think I referred to that when I 81 of Schedule 6, EPBs and combined authorities will said that his heart warms as I speak. I am not sure that also be subject to those rules. I hope that noble Lords’ many Liberal Democrats would be able to share that concerns will be allayed on this point. Rather than view. However, I have the privilege of being a member accept the amendment and have to decide what constitutes of the shadow Cabinet, so I can assure the noble Lord a political make-up which is reflective of the constituent that the views that I present from the Dispatch Box are local authorities—which would be open to extensive on behalf of the Conservative Party. I beg leave to interpretation—it is better to apply existing rules from withdraw the amendment. the 1989 Act and to allow authorities to come up with arrangements with which they are content than to try Amendment 184 withdrawn. to make provision for this on the face of the Bill. It is another example of how we are leaving the decision to Amendments 184A to 185B not moved. the constituent authorities on the EPB to do as they see fit and appropriate. Clause 84 agreed. Baroness Hamwee: I shall not ask the Minister to respond now but in a letter which may be getting Clause 85 : Constitution: membership and voting longer as we talk about it, but perhaps she can explain how political proportionality will be applied in the Amendments 186 and 187 not moved. case of a board which contains non-councillors. The Minister is clearly taken aback and distressed The Deputy Speaker (Lord Geddes): I cannot call by the attacks that have come from this side of the Amendment 187A since Amendment 187 has not been Committee. I started today—or certainly this part of moved. the Bill—by saying that no one doubts her own good intentions and those of the Government, but the Amendments 187B to 188A not moved. problem is reconciling what she says with what is on the face of the Bill. This leads me to my next request. Will she justify, in writing, each order-making power Clause 85 agreed. as expressed in the Bill? None of these says expressly— although some might be linked to this—“an order-making Clause 86 : Exercise of local authority functions power at the request, and only at the request, of the EPB”. We are being told that that is the situation. It Amendment 188B not moved. may be that if one joins some bits one can arrive at that, but I do not think that it applies to everything and it is not always entirely clear. On justifying an Lord Patel of Bradford: This may be a convenient order-making power, it would not be sufficient to say, moment for the Committee to adjourn. “because this is how we normally do this sort of thing”. Committee adjourned at 7.47 pm.

WS 13 Written Statements[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Written Statements WS 14

defendants to settle unmeritorious claims, which in Written Statements turn may encourage a more risk-averse approach to media reporting and is a risk to freedom of expression. Tuesday 24 February 2009 The Government are therefore consulting on measures designed to place more effective controls on the costs in defamation and some other publication related Benefits: Disability proceedings. The measures include: Statement limiting recoverable hourly rates by setting either maximum or fixed recoverable rates; The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, mandatory or mandatory consideration of cost Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of capping; Luton): My honourable friend the Parliamentary Under- linking recoverability of ATE Insurance premiums Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Jonathan to notification and introducing a period of Shaw) has made the following Written Ministerial non-recoverability post notification; and Statement. requiring the proportionality of total costs to be My right honourable friend Anne McGuire, the considered on cost assessments conducted by the then Minister for Disabled People, notified the House court. on 3 April 2008 that following the European Court of Justice decision of 18 October 2007 we would in due These proposals would work to: help deal with the course publish details of the eligibility criteria for threat of excessive hourly rates and base rates; limit payment of the disability benefits, (disability living the recoverability of after the event insurance premiums allowance (care component), attendance allowance in certain circumstances; and enable the court to assess and carer’s allowance) within the European economic different cost elements together to ensure that the area (EEA) and Switzerland for those people who costs are proportionate and reasonable. wish to claim these benefits from abroad. The measures, if accepted, would be implemented We have now carefully considered the full terms of by way of amendments to the Civil Procedure Rules, the judgment and the provisions of European legislation practice directions and protocols, as appropriate. which co-ordinates social security systems within the Copies of the consultation paper have been placed EEA and Switzerland, as it applies to the UK’s disability in the Libraries of both Houses. The paper is also benefits and their re-classification under European available on the Ministry of Justice website at law as sickness benefits. Details of the eligibility criteria www.justice.gsi.gov.uk. Copies have also been made for payments of the disability benefits have been posted available in the Vote Office and the Printed Paper on the Directgov website on the pages: taking disability Office. The consultation period will close on 6 May. benefits to other European countries1 and claiming disability benefits if you live in another European country2. Customers who would like more information about EU: Environment Council the effects of the judgment should contact the address Statement below: Pension, Disability and Carers Service, Room C216, Warbreck House, Warbreck Hill Rd, Blackpool, FY2 The Minister of State, Department of Energy and OYE. Email: [email protected]. Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food Customers who have already contacted the exportability and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): My team about the judgment do not need to contact it right honourable friend the Secretary of State for again. Their original enquiries will be dealt with as Energy and Climate Change (Ed Miliband) has made quickly as possible. the following Written Ministerial Statement. 1 www.direct.gov.uk/takingbenefits. Hilary Benn, Secretary of State for Environment, 2 www.direct.gov.uk/claimingbenefits. Food and Rural Affairs and Ed Miliband, Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, will represent the UK at the Environment Council in Brussels on Defamation Proceedings: Costs 2 March. Statement At Environment Council, Ministers will discuss the development of the EU position on a comprehensive post-2012 climate agreement in Copenhagen and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry subsequently adopt council conclusions. Climate change of Justice (Lord Bach): My honourable friend the discussions will continue over the ministerial lunch. Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Bridget Prentice) The Czech presidency will also hold discussion on has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. the proposal for a directive on industrial emissions, I have today issued a consultation paper Controlling integrated pollution prevention and control (IPPC Costs in Defamation Proceedings. directive). The debate will focus on the scope of the The high level of costs incurred in defamation and proposal; the status of the European reference documents some other publication proceedings have been the on best available techniques (the BREFs); the need for subject of criticism and debate in the courts and further minimum requirements and the large combustion Parliament. The risk of excessive costs may force plant provisions. WS 15 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 16

Furthermore, there will be a policy debate and Metropolitan Police Service, accompanied Mr Mohamed adoption of council conclusions on contributions to on his return to the UK. The FCO was in close contact the spring European Council (19 and 20 March). with Mr Mohamed’s family and legal representatives The council will also be asked to adopt three council to inform them of his return. decisions regarding the provisional prohibition on the This is the direct result of our request for his release use and sale of two GM maize lines in Austria and one and return, and follows intensive negotiations with the GM maize line in Hungary. US Government over the past 18 months, since my Finally, the council will aim to adopt a council request to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on decision on the proposal establishing the position to 7 August 2007. These negotiations included pressing be adopted on behalf of the European Community for and securing the disclosure by the US to with regard to proposals for amendments to the Mr Mohamed’s lawyers of the 42 documents, which International Convention on the Regulation of Whaling were the subject of a judicial review in the English and its schedule. Courts, that could be used for Mr Mohamed’s defence. Further public disclosure of these documents remains Under any other business, the Czech presidency a matter for the US Administration. In this regard we will provide information on the fall in demand from welcome the US Attorney General’s order to a review recycled materials and the 25th Session of the UNEP of all the assertions of the state secrets privilege in the Governing Council (Nairobi, 16 to 20 February 2009). US courts. Furthermore, the European Commission will present proposals for a directive on the restriction of the use The Government abhor torture and do not order or of certain hazardous substances in electrical and electronic condone it. We have raised with the US allegations of equipment and for a directive on waste electrical and mistreatment put to us by UK nationals or residents electronic equipment (WEEE). The Commission will currently or formerly detained at Guantanamo Bay, also present a communication on a mid-term assessment including Mr Mohamed. The question of possible of implementing the EC biodiversity action plan. criminal wrongdoing that arose in Mr Mohamed’s case was referred by the Home Secretary to the Attorney General for her to consider. This was, as the court Fishing: Trawlermen Scheme acknowledged, the proper legal process. Statement Mr Mohamed’s return does not constitute a commitment by the Home Secretary that he may remain permanently in the UK. His immigration status is The Minister of State, Department for Business, being reviewed following his return. As always, the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform & Foreign and Government’s top priority is national security, and Commonwealth Office (Lord Davies of Abersoch): My should any steps be necessary, we will take them. right honourable friend the Minister for Employment Relations and Postal Affairs (Pat McFadden) has made Mr Mohamed is the first Guantanamo detainee to the following Statement. be released under President Obama’s Administration. We have welcomed, and strongly support, the Obama Further to my Statement on 11 December 2008 Administration’s aim to close Guantanamo. Our (Official Report, col. 63WS) I am pleased to announce request for Shaker Aamer’s return to the UK remains that we have today released a consultation paper, in and we stand ready to share our experience in which we are seeking views on the details of a new receiving former detainees with European member scheme to compensate former Icelandic-water trawlermen states, and others, as they consider how they can assist that lost their livelihoods following the Cod Wars in towards closure. the 1970s. Copies of the consultation paper can be viewed at www.berr.gov.uk/files/file49973.pdf. Views must be Schools: Revenue Balances submitted by 8 May 2009. I will place copies of the Statement consultation paper in the Libraries of the House. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Guantanamo Bay: Binyam Mohamed Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness Morgan of Drefelin): My right honourable friend the Statement Minister for Schools and Learners (Jim Knight) has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth The Department for Children, Schools and Families Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): My right honourable has today published information on the end of financial friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and year revenue balances of all local authority maintained Commonwealth Affairs (David Miliband) has made nursery, primary, secondary and special schools for the following Written Ministerial Statement. the year 2007-08. Mr Binyam Mohamed returned to the UK yesterday, This information is presented alongside information 23 February, following his release from Guantanamo on schools’ revenue balances for the financial years Bay. A team of Foreign and Commonwealth Office 1999-00 to 2006-07 published on 1 April 2008. The (FCO)officials,includingadoctor,metwithMrMohamedon information is taken from local authorities’ published 14 February and confirmed there were no immediate section 52 outturn statements for the years in question medical concerns that would prevent him from travelling but presents this in summary form. Copies of the to the UK. The same team, along with officers of the information have been placed in the Libraries and will WS 17 Written Statements[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Written Statements WS 18 be accessible from the Department for Children, Schools Department for Communities and Local Government and Families website at www.dcsf.gov.uk/localauthorities/ website at www.communities.gov.uk/publications/ section52/subPage.cfm?action=section52.default localgovernment/localspendingreportsconsultation. &ID=84 . The Sustainable Communities Act 2007 was introduced Surplus balances totalled £2 billion and deficits to Parliament as a Private Member’s Bill and aims to £120 million at the end of 2007-08, giving net total promote the sustainability of local communities in revenue balances of £1.9 billion. This represents an England. It is based on the principle that local people increase of £248.6 million or 14.9 per cent compared know best what needs to be done to promote the to the position at the end of 2006-07. At school level, sustainability of their area, but that sometimes they 91.7 per cent of schools held a surplus balance, with need central government to act to enable this to happen. 38.3 per cent holding an excessive balance, defined in In October 2008, the Secretary of State for Communities guidance from my department as over 8 per cent of and Local Government invited local authorities to budget for primary and special schools and over 5 per submit proposals, via the Local Government Association cent of budget for secondary schools. Excessive surpluses in its capacity as the selector, which they consider totalled £591.9 million. would contribute to promoting the sustainability of The Government believe that the national total of local communities. The deadline for the submission of revenue balances and in particular the level of surplus proposals to the Local Government Association is held by some individual schools is too high. While it is 31 July 2009. clearly sound financial management for schools to The Act requires the Secretary of State to make retain a small surplus from year to year, we expect arrangements for the production of local spending revenue funding to be used for the salaries of staff at reports and to make the first arrangements for the the school and on learning resources to support the production of these reports before 23 April 2009. The education of pupils in school now, working towards reports will provide information on expenditure by raising attainment and narrowing the gaps in attainment bodies exercising public functions in an area and over between disadvantaged children and the rest. We would a period of time. The aim of these reports is to assist not normally expect schools to need to use it for local authorities, their partners and local people in capital improvement projects, given that separate capital promoting the sustainability of local communities by funding is available. Where a school is in deficit, it providing more information about the public funding must agree a recovery plan with the local authority to that is spent in their area. eliminate the deficit, normally over three years. Before making arrangements, the Act requires the As I made clear in my previous Statements to the Secretary of State to consult such persons likely to be House on 30 October 2007 (Official Report, col. 29WS) affected by the arrangements as the Secretary of State and 1 April 2008 (Official Report, col. 36WS) about thinks appropriate. This will enable the Government school finances, we expect schools and local authorities to develop local spending reports which are useful and to work to reduce the level of balances by the end of whose cost is likely to justify their benefit. This consultation 2010-11 and to make full use of their power to claw paper is in two phases. First, proposals for how the back excess, uncommitted surpluses and redistribute Government will put in place the first arrangements the proceeds back to local schools in consultation with for local spending reports and, secondly, seeking views schools forums. If we do not see a substantial reduction on how local spending reports might develop over of total revenue balances and the excessive balances time. held by individual schools, the Government will consult The first phase of the consultation closes on the on further action from 2011-12 to bring the total 3 April 2009. We intend to make the first local spending down. reports available as soon as possible after that. The In the mean time the department continues to work second phase of the consultation on how these reports with its partners to prepare further advice for local might develop on a longer-term basis closes on 15 May authorities on effective clawback of balances, including 2009. examples of good practice.

Transport: Drivers’ Hours Sustainable Communities: Local Spending Statement Reports Statement The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Lord Adonis): My honourable friend the Parliamentary The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Jim Fitzpatrick) Department for Communities and Local Government has made the following Ministerial Statement. (Baroness Andrews): My honourable friend the I am pleased to announce today that the European Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Sadiq Khan) Commission has agreed to the Government’s request has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. for an exemption from Regulation (EC) 561/2006 on We have published a consultation on the first drivers’ hours for professional drivers operating solely arrangements for the production of local spending within the UK when they are reservists undergoing reports, which is a requirement of the Sustainable military training or providing instruction to members Communities Act 2007. This document has been placed of a Cadet corps approved by the Secretary of State in the Library of the House and is available on the for Defence. WS 19 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 20

This exemption, which has been granted in accordance exemption, and a copy of the European Commission’s with the provisions in Article 14.1 of Regulation (EC) decision will be published on the Vehicle and Operator 561/2006, applies to the weekly rest requirements in Services Agency website. Article 8(2) and 8(6) of Regulation (EC) 561/2006. It will enable a driver who finishes his normal driving UK Government Decontamination Service duties on a Friday to complete a 34 hour period of Statement military training as a volunteer reservist or as an instructor in the Cadet Corps and then resume his The Minister of State, Department of Energy and normal driving duties again on a Monday morning. Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): My The following safeguards have been incorporated right honourable friend the Secretary of State for into the exemption to ensure that road safety is not Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Hilary Benn) jeopardised: has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. the exemption will apply to 15 days’ annual camp I am pleased to announce that following careful and 10 weekend training sessions per annum—a consideration, the UK Government Decontamination total of 35 days. Weekend training will not be Service (GDS) (an executive Agency of Defra) will allowed to take place on consecutive weeks (other join the new Food and Environment Research Agency than in respect of the 15-day annual camp); (Fera) that Defra is establishing, from 1 April 2009. The remit and functions of the GDS, which I announced a regular daily rest period of 11 hours must be on 13 October 2008, will continue as a badged service taken between the end of weekend training and provided by the Food and Environment Research start of work for the primary employer; and Agency; ie it will still be known as the UK Government a regular weekly rest period of 45 hours must be Decontamination Service. This gives Fera a wider taken no later than at the end of the sixth day national emergency response and recovery capability, following a period of weekend training. supporting UK Resilience. In particular, the inclusion of GDS within Fera will strengthen the science capability Until such time as the exemption can be transposed underpinning GDS functions and areas of expertise. into domestic legislation, it will be implemented by The GDS will cease to be a separate executive administrative means. The Ministry of Defence will be agency on 31 March 2009. Its annual report and issuing guidelines that outline how drivers can manage accounts for 2008-09 will be completed and presented their volunteer reserve service in accordance with the to Parliament in due course. WA 35 Written Answers[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Written Answers WA 36

by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister and Written Answers the Mauritian Prime Minister, Dr Navinchandra Ramgoolam. Tuesday 24 February 2009 Officials discussed the latest legal and policy developments relating to BIOT. British officials set out the view of the UK on sovereignty and how the Banking: UK Financial Investments Ltd United Kingdom had to bear in mind its treaty obligations Question with the USA. Mauritian officials set out the view of Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick Mauritius on sovereignty. There were discussions on fishing rights, environmental concerns, the continental To ask Her Majesty’s Government why bankers shelf, future visits to the territory by the Chagossians recruited by the Government into UK Financial and respective policies towards resettlement. Investments Ltd to manage the state’s £37 billion Officials agreed the need to maintain a dialogue on stake in retail banks will be eligible for bonus a range of issues relating to the territory and to meet payments. [HL1393] again at a date to be agreed.

The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Myners): Some element of performance-related Children: Domestic Violence pay is now the norm in the great majority of organisations Question in both the public and private sectors. UK Financial Investments will be no exception to this, and as with Asked by Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer other publicly funded organisations all remuneration To ask Her Majesty’s Government what percentage arrangements must deliver value for money for the of local authorities have specialised services to address taxpayer. the effects of domestic violence on children. [HL1421] Belfast Agreement Question The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness Asked by Lord Laird Morgan of Drefelin): The Government do not hold To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the data that indicate which local authorities have specialised Written Answer by Baroness Royall of Blaisdon on services to address the effects of domestic violence on 9 February (WA163) concerning the Belfast agreement children. Local authority children’s services are best of 1998, what was agreed concerning the transparency placed to assess the type and levels of support required. and accountability of cross-border implementation Therefore the provision of local services must be determined locally, based on local need and priorities. bodies. [HL1540]

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: The accountability Children: Lifetime Number arrangements for the operation of the north/south Question implementation bodies are set out in the agreement between the Government of the United Kingdom of Asked by Lord Taylor of Holbeach Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Government of Ireland who established the implementation bodies To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they on 8 March 1999. The operation of the bodies is a plan to assign each child a lifetime number and matter for the devolved authorities in Northern Ireland keep a permanent record of school achievements, and the Irish Government. exclusions and expulsions for access by potential employers; and, if so, what is the reason. [HL1473]

Chagos Islands The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Question Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness Asked by Lord Avebury Morgan of Drefelin): The Department for Children, Schools and Families is not planning on assigning a To ask Her Majesty’s Government what recent lifetime child number for employers to access records discussions they have had with officials from Mauritius of school achievements, exclusions and expulsions. on the future of the Chagos archipelago; and what in particular was discussed. [HL1131] Children: Refuges The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Questions Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): British and Mauritian Asked by Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer Government officials met in London on Wednesday 14 January 2009. The purpose of the meeting was to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what percentage establish a dialogue between the UK and Mauritius of local authorities have dedicated support workers on the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT) as agreed for children in refuges. [HL1422] WA 37 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 38

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, The Government thus have no plans at present for Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness funding any significant research on geo-engineering. Morgan of Drefelin): The Government do not collect The Department of Energy and Climate Change has data that indicate which local authorities have dedicated however been funding, as part of the Integrated Climate support workers for children in refuges. The provision Programme at the Met Office Hadley Centre, a small of local services must be determined locally, by local set of modelling studies on the impacts of geo-engineering authorities, based on local need and priorities. options on the climate system, to help assess their environmental implications. Asked by Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer The Government welcome the Royal Society’s current To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they study on geo-engineering which is aimed at helping plan to introduce statutory funded places for children policymakers decide which options, if any, should be in refuges. [HL1424] researched and deployed. Research Councils are funded by DIUS but under Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: The Government have the Haldane principle they set their own detailed no plans to introduce statutory funded places for research priorities. The Natural Environment Research children in refuges. Council and the Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council support a wide range of research that is relevant to geo-engineering, particularly in the Children: Sexual Exploitation areas of climate dynamics, which helps us understand Questions potential environmental effects of large-scale geo- Asked by Baroness Gould of Potternewton engineering, and carbon capture and storage, an accepted way of removing atmospheric carbon dioxide, at source. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will undertake research into the sexual exploitation of children and young people by other children and Co-operation Ireland young people. [HL1406] Question Asked by Lord Laird The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether in Morgan of Drefelin): We have no plans at present to 2008 they hosted a reception on their property in undertake research into the sexual exploitation of Hillsborough, County Down, for Co-operation Ireland; children and young people by other children and and, if so, why; when; how much it cost; and who young people. organised it. [HL1284] Asked by Baroness Gould of Potternewton Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: On 24 November 2008, To ask Her Majesty’s Government when revised the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland hosted a guidance on safeguarding children and young people reception to mark the retirement of Tony Kennedy as from sexual exploitation will be published. [HL1408] chief executive of Co-operation Ireland and the appointment of Peter Sheridan as the new chief executive. The event, attended by over 300 guests, was organised Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: We expect to publish by the Northern Ireland Office at a total cost of guidance on safeguarding children and young people £5,736.35. from sexual exploitation in the spring.

Climate Change: Research Crime: Money-laundering Question Question Asked by Lord Greaves Asked by Lord Wakeham To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they they are taking to ensure public funding for research plan to (a) review the administration of money into geo-engineering projects that may help to counter laundering regulations, and (b) simplify the regulations climate change. [HL1546] so far as they affect law-abiding citizens. [HL1043] The Minister of State, Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills (Lord Drayson): Research into The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury understanding climate change and its impacts is a high (Lord Myners): The UK’s Money Laundering Regulations priority for the Government. 2007 transposed the requirements of the EU’s third At present, the Government consider that geo- money-laundering directive into domestic law. engineering options are speculative. It is important, To help interpret the requirements of the regulations though, to keep them under review, particularly those within the UK’s specific context and to avoid prescriptive that remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, as application, HM Government employ a risk-based geo-engineering might ultimately have a role to play in approach to implementation. This enables businesses helping to ameliorate climate change; particularly if to apply simplified customer checks in many situations, emissions reductions are not achieved quickly enough to have discretion over how they verify customers’ or climate change turns out to be worse than projected. identities, and to rely upon customer checks already WA 39 Written Answers[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Written Answers WA 40 carried out by other regulated businesses. The Treasury to produce a report on the human rights situation in and the various money-laundering supervisory bodies, the country, which will be discussed at the March such as the FSA or Institute of Chartered Accountants, session of the Human Rights Council. routinely advise regulated business on the need to apply the regulations in a risk-based way, which enables resources to be targeted at the greatest threats, and the Education: PSHE minimum burden to be placed on law-abiding citizens. Question In the Treasury’s consultation on the regulations, it Asked by Baroness Gould of Potternewton committed to reviewing their implementation after a period of two years. It is intended that this review will To ask Her Majesty’s Government following the coincide with a review of the underlying third money- announcement that Personal, Social and Health laundering directive by the European Commission. Education could become a statutory part of the curriculum for key stages one to four, how Sir Alasdair MacDonald will involve young people in Cuba: Prisoners his review of this proposal to ensure he takes their Question needs into account. [HL1403] Asked by Lord Patten The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness Written Answer by Lord Malloch-Brown on 21 January Morgan of Drefelin): We have asked Sir Alasdair (WA 204), whether they are pressing the European MacDonald as part of his review to consult with Union to schedule the next round of political dialogue young people, parents, schools, communities and other with Cuba at an early date; and whether the conditions key stakeholders to find the most effective way forward. and welfare of political prisoners of all religious He is taking evidence from young people through a faiths will be on the agenda. [HL1245] variety of forms, including meetings, written evidence, school visits and focus groups, to ensure that their The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth needs are taken into account. Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): Discussions to schedule the next meeting of the political dialogue are ongoing between the EU and Cuba. As human rights is a Equality central element of the EU common position on Cuba Question and the dialogue itself, we will push for it to be Asked by Lord Laird included at the next meeting. The UK/EU takes every opportunity to raise human To ask Her Majesty’s Government how their rights concerns with the Cuban Government. During equality policies are reflected in their foreign policies. Cuba’s universal periodic review, at the UN Human [HL1436] Rights Council on 5 February 2009, the UK made a statement expressing concern about the continued The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth detention of more than 50 political prisoners and Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): Our objective is for the called on Cuba to end restrictions on freedom of Foreign and Commonwealth Office to be a world expression and association. leader in addressing discrimination, promoting equality and harnessing differences as an employer, service provider and principal deliverer of UK foreign policy. Democratic Republic of Congo: Rape There are a number of ways in which we do this. Question As an employer, we aim to recruit people from Asked by Lord Avebury different backgrounds, in order to make better policy. We also promote and use equality impact tools to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what information ensure major policies and initiatives do not have a they hold regarding the dates of requests by the disproportionately negative impact on any of our United Nations Rapporteur on Torture for an invitation staff. to visit the Democratic Republic of Congo; and the As a service provider, we aim to ensure that diverse dates of the replies. [HL1166] groups and their needs are catered for in contingency planning and ensure that our partners subscribe to the The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth same expectations of behaviour as we do. Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): We have been informed Finally, as a developer and deliverer of UK foreign by the UN Office of the High Commissioner for policy goals, we work to promote anti-discrimination Human Rights that the special rapporteur on torture measures in other countries through promoting has not requested a visit to the Democratic Republic implementation of international conventions such as of Congo (DRC) for the time being. the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of The special rapporteur on internally displaced persons Discrimination against Women and the UN Convention visited the DRC in January and briefed the UN Human on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. We also Rights Office and the Diplomatic Corps. His visit provide financial and technical support for programmes focused on a wide range of human rights abuses. The that target underrepresented or marginalised groups group of special rapporteurs for the DRC is expected both through our human rights strategic programme WA 41 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 42 fund, as well as other wider UK initiatives such as Financial Services Authority Chevening scholarships. We also consult regularly diverse Question stakeholders when formulating policies. Asked by Lord Morris of Aberavon To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many EU: Israel Association Agreement directors have been refused authorisation for Question undertaking investment business as being not fit to Asked by Baroness Tonge do so by the Financial Services Authority; and whether the operation of this jurisdiction is satisfactory. To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the [HL1531] upgrade of the European Union–Israel agreement will next be discussed. [HL917] The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Myners): This is an operational matter for the The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth FSA. I understand that the chairman of the FSA, Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): Work on the new agreement Lord Turner, will write to my noble friend directly. to succeed the current EU-Israel Action Plan is being taken forward by the European Commission, the presidency and Israel. These discussions have been Gaza delayed by the events in Gaza. There is no formal Questions timetable going forward, but we expect discussions to resume shortly. Once the Commission, presidency and Asked by Baroness Tonge Israel have made progress on the detail, there will be To ask Her Majesty’s Government what further discussion between Member States. representations they have made to the Government of Israel to seek an extension of fishing limits for fishermen in Gaza. [HL914] Families: Single-parent Families Question The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Asked by Lord Northbourne Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): While we have made no specific representations on this issue, we, along with To ask Her Majesty’s Government why their our EU partners, continue to press the Israeli Government policies on reducing child poverty do not include a to reduce their restrictions on Gaza to meet humanitarian policy to reduce the number of single-parent families and reconstruction needs, and also to allow Gazans through information, motivation and support for the opportunity to rebuild their economy. two-parent families. [HL1438] Asked by Lord Hylton

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness quartet has raised or will raise with the Government Morgan of Drefelin): The Government’s policies on of Israel the question of access to Gaza for building reducing child poverty cover all children at risk of materials. [HL1024] being in poverty, which includes two-parent as well as single-parent families. As part of this comprehensive Lord Malloch-Brown: The quartet representative approach, we provide targeted support for families has raised and will continue to raise with the Government who are separating or are at risk of doing so. As part of Israel the issue of allowing building materials in to of our measures to combat child poverty, we announced Gaza to allow for the urgent reconstruction of homes in December that £5.5 million would be available and infrastructure. between 2009 and 2011 for new pilots to better co-ordinate local support for separating parents. Asked by Lord Hylton In addition, we also announced in December that To ask Her Majesty’s Government what more support would be available for new parents to representations they are making to the Government help them prepare for the changes parenthood brings. of Israel concerning its role in restoring destroyed We are also prioritising support to third-sector and damaged houses in Gaza, together with impaired organisations offering relationship support. Over the education and health services; and whether they next two years, we will be providing grants of over will draw attention to the sewerage situation and its £7 million to a range of third-sector organisations, impact on Gaza and Israel. [HL1079] such as Relate, working directly with parents experiencing relationship conflict. Information and advice to support parents both in their parenting and their couple Lord Malloch-Brown: We would welcome an Israeli relationship is available nationally through the innovative contribution to the wider reconstruction effort. The Parent Know How programme. We have also funded most essential Israeli action that we continue to press the National Academy for Parenting Practitioners (NAPP) for is the immediate free and unhindered passage of to train and support the practitioners that parents humanitarian aid, construction materials and the staff turn to for advice, training and information around of UN agencies and international non-governmental parenting skills. organisations through the Gaza crossings. WA 43 Written Answers[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Written Answers WA 44

Asked by Baroness Northover Asked by Lord Dykes To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions people are in emergency shelters in Gaza; and how they will hold with the government of France with many are without water or power or both. [HL1084] a view to including Hamas in a government of national unity covering all Palestinian Territories. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment [HL1101] they have made of the ease of movement of goods into Gaza. [HL1085] Lord Malloch-Brown: We support Egyptian efforts to work with President Abbas to reunite Palestinian politics and ensure the authority of the Palestinian Lord Malloch-Brown: The number of truckloads of Authority runs throughout the Palestinian Territories. aid permitted to enter Gaza daily by the Israeli authorities However, the quartet has made clear that Hamas remains insufficient, and humanitarian organisations needs to make significant movement towards rejecting continue to face serious restrictions to enter Gaza. violence, accepting Israel’s right to exist, and recognising The UK along with the international community will previous agreements. We discuss these issues frequently continue to call for the full opening of the crossings with France and other partners. into and out of Gaza. Asked by Lord Hylton Asked by Baroness Northover To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment will seek access by sea to Gaza for imports and they have made of the opening by Israel of border exports, if supplies transported by road prove to be insufficient. [HL1123] crossings into Gaza. [HL1086] Lord Malloch-Brown: We have no reason to believe that sea-borne access to Gaza is any more straightforward Lord Malloch-Brown: The number of truckloads of than access by land. So we will continue to press the aid permitted to enter Gaza daily by the Israeli authorities Israeli Government to allow full access. remains insufficient, and humanitarian organisations Asked by Lord Dykes continue to face serious restrictions to enter Gaza. The UK along with the international community will To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their continue to call for the full opening of the crossings response to the call by 80 members of the British into and out of Gaza. Jewish community in a letter to the Guardian on 10 January for a programme of boycott, divestment Asked by Baroness Northover and sanctions against Israel after the recent military To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment action in Gaza. [HL1260] they have made of the short- and long-term supply of electricity, water, sewerage and sanitation in Lord Malloch-Brown: We believe divestment, sanctions Gaza. [HL1088] and boycotts directed at Israel would be counterproductive. Isolation of Israel would advance neither Britain’s influence nor the prospects for peace in the Middle East. Lord Brett: The latest UN assessment found that the Gaza power plant still does not receive enough fuel Asked by Lord Dykes to operate at full capacity and much of the Gaza Strip To ask Her Majesty’s Government what continues to receive only intermittent electricity. representations they will make to the Government On 9 February, the UN reported on that 50,000 to of Israel about any civilians who have been blinded 100,000 people were without running water and 15 per by the recent military action in Gaza. [HL1261] cent of the population received running water in their homes only every five or six days. Even before the Lord Malloch-Brown: We have no plans to make crisis 80 per cent of drinking water in Gaza did not specific representations on this issue. But we have been meet international standards for human consumption. very clear that we condemn any attack on innocent Gaza’s water and wastewater system is in need of civilians. UN Security Council Resolution 1860, which significant repairs which are estimated to cost was proposed by the UK, was emphatic in its approximately $6 million. condemnation of all violence and hostilities directed The United Nations (UN) reported on 9 February against civilians and all acts of terrorism. that three UN shelters remained open in Jabalia, Beach Camp and Deir Al Balah, hosting 388 displaced people. Government Departments: Staffing With regard to longer-term needs, the World Bank, Question United Nations Development Programme and European Asked by Lord Taylor of Holbeach Community, working closely with the Palestinian Authority, will take the lead in co-ordinating international To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the efforts on reconstruction. They are currently planning Statement repeated by Lord McKenzie of Luton on a full needs assessment which is expected to last two to 25 November 2008 (Official Report, House of Lords, three months. This will include a full assessment of cols. 1368–70) which stated that the Department for needs for electricity, water and sanitation. Work and Pensions “reduced its staffing by 31,000 WA 45 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 46

and has increased productivity overall by 12 per Asked by Lord Steinberg cent, as confirmed by the National Audit Office”, whether they have plans for other departments to To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether any do likewise; and, if so, whether the Department for of their information technology projects are Environment, Food and Rural Affairs will be required experiencing difficulties; and why 45 projects are to participate in such plans. [HL761] considered by the Office of Government Commerce to be unachievable. [HL1416] The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Myners): Having already delivered £26.5 billion of savings through the Gershon efficiency programme, Lord Myners: Of 2007 OGC Gateway reviews over the next three years all departments will go completed to date, 964 were categorised as having further and achieve additional efficiency savings, including been carried out on IT enabled projects. Defra which will deliver more than £379 million of Since the introduction of delivery confidence in value-for-money savings by 2010-11. Departments are June 2008, four projects have received a single red responsible for achieving their savings and there is no delivery confidence rating, indicating that successful central workforce reduction target. delivery of the project, as currently constituted and defined, appears to be unachievable and that the project may need re-baselining and/or its overall viability Government: IT reassessed. The Gateway report contains recommendations Questions which, if adopted, should help the project to improve Asked by Lord Steinberg its potential for success. Prior to June 2008, 41 projects received a consecutive To ask Her Majesty’s Government what they red review, indicating that at the time of the review one will do to improve the time and budget success rate or more of the recommendations, contained within a of information technology contracts. [HL1373] review report, needed to be carried out urgently. The red status was not a reflection of the overall status of The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury the project and did not necessarily mean that the (Lord Myners): The responsibility of managing all Office of Government Commerce considered the projects contracts rests with the contracting department or to be unachievable. organisation. The Office of Government Commerce (OGC) is working with departments on a number of initiatives to help them improve procurement and project management skills and capability; the negotiation, Government: Legislation agreement and subsequent management of contracts; Question and the improved management of projects defined in those contracts. In particular, the OGC is working Asked by Earl Attlee closely with colleagues in the Cabinet Office to ensure To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many that a greater number of ICT contracts are fulfilled pages of primary legislation (excluding money bills) within time and budget. have been passed in each of the past 15 years. Asked by Lord Steinberg [HL1439] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the status of their relationship with the Japanese company The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Fujitsu. [HL1374] of Justice (Lord Bach): The number of pages of primary legislation (excluding Money Bills) passed in each of Lord Myners: Fujitsu is a strategically important the past 15 years is as follows: supplier of goods and services to a number of government organisations, primarily in the area of information Year Number of pages and communications technologies (ICT). 1994 1,612 Asked by Lord Steinberg 1995 2,563 1996 2,617 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the performance of their information 1997 1,648 technology contracts, and whether any cost over-runs 1998 1,991 1999 1,814 are expected. [HL1376] 2000 3,173 2001 788 Lord Myners: The responsibility of managing all 2002 2,264 contracts, including performance assessment and budget 2003 2,871 projections, rests with the contracting department or 2004 2,721 organisation. In the area of ICT,the Office of Government 2005 1,686 Commerce (OGC) and the Chief Information Officers 2006 3,406 (CIO) Council work with departments to monitor 2007 1,974 ICT supplier performance; these assessments are 2008 2,388 commercially confidential. WA 47 Written Answers[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Written Answers WA 48

Hajj Advisory Group The primary aim was to act as a fund-raising body Questions to finance the important work of the British Hajj Delegation (BHD) from voluntary contributions by Asked by Baroness Warsi members of British Muslim communities. By 2004 it To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the was clear that the HAG was unable to raise these funds, necessitating further investment from the Foreign Hajj Advisory Group was established. [HL1158] and Commonwealth Office (FCO) to ensure the To ask Her Majesty’s Government which Muslim maintenance of exceptional medical support to British organisations were consulted when they established pilgrims, in addition to the FCO provision of core the Hajj Advisory Group. [HL1159] consular support to this event. To ask Her Majesty’s Government who are the In 2004 and 2005, the FCO provided a grant of current members of the Hajj Advisory Group; how £20,000 to the HAG. The grant was administered by they are chosen; and what criteria are used for the group’s secretariat based at the Islamic Cultural selecting members. [HL1160] Centre in London. The secretariat received £12,000 to To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether a cover its administrative costs. Funding was withdrawn charter or constitution was agreed upon the in 2006 when the group was abolished. establishment of the Hajj Advisory Group; and, if In the past five years the FCO has provided the so, whether they will place a copy in the Library of BHD with £40,000 in 2004, £60,000 in 2005, £70,000 the House. [HL1161] in 2006, £80,000 in 2007 and £90,000 in 2008. Logistical and administrative support is provided To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assistance for the BHD from FCO administrative resources (eg they have provided to the Hajj Advisory Group and organising meetings, circulating documents, answering the British Hajj Delegation in each of the past five letters from members of the public etc). years. [HL1162] The FCO currently funds a full-time Hajj desk officer to support arrangements for the BHD. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Health: Irish Community Groups Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): The Hajj Advisory Group (HAG) was established in July 2001 and abolished Question in 2006. Asked by Lord Laird The Hajj Advisory Group charter contained the To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the criteria for appointment of members to the group. 2001 Irish Census ethnic group question, made as a This was based on the particular skills and contributions result of representations from Irish community groups an individual could bring to the group in terms of for information to measure health inequalities among professional experience in relative fields (eg fund raising, the population, has been put to effective use. medical, welfare, administration and communication) [HL1222] and their work within established communities. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Members from various Muslim organisations were Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): There appointed to the HAG. The composition of the group have been a number of analyses of health status by the reflected the diversity of traditions within the Muslim Irish ethnic category from the 2001 census. These community. Our records do not hold the details of analyses include: infant mortality; self reported health; which organisations were consulted when the HAG long-standing limiting illness; heart disease; prevalence was established. However, they show a variety of Muslim of diabetes; smoking; obesity and mental health. organisations were consulted reflecting the diversity and geographic locations of the Muslim community in These analyses confirm that people of Irish descent the UK. living in England are at risk from infant mortality, smoking and smoking-related illness, obesity, and mental The permanent members of the HAG were drawn health problems to a greater extent than the general from the following organisations: population. Irish Travellers, along with Romany Gypsies, Islamic Cultural Centre; experience the worst health status of any disadvantaged Union of Muslim Organisations; community in England. Muslim Council of Britain; The department and the National Health Service Muslim Association of Britain; have used this new understanding to help focus their World Federation of Khoji Shia Ithna-Asheri Muslim efforts in addressing health inequalities. For example, Community; improving the health status of Irish Travellers is a key part of the department’s flagship Pacesetters programme, Association of British Hujjaj; aimed at addressing health inequalities that arise from Muslim College; and discrimination. Foreign and Commonwealth Office. The charter established four working groups as Homeless People follows: Question Fund Raising; Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno Publicity; To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Strategic Planning; and homeless people died on the streets of the United Medical and Social. Kingdom in each year from 2004 to 2008. [HL1057] WA 49 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 50

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Department for Communities and Local Government Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): The UK regularly lobbies (Baroness Andrews): The department does not collect foreign Governments who have not ratified the United information on the numbers of rough sleepers that Nations Convention Against Torture (UNCAT) and died on the streets of England. the Optional Protocol to the Convention Against Torture On 18 November we published a new rough sleeping (OPCAT) to take steps towards doing so. Our recent strategy, No One Left Out: Communities Ending Rough efforts have included, where relevant, lobbying in the Sleeping where we promote prevention of rough sleeping countries with which we have memoranda of understanding in all areas through effective housing options and a regarding deportations with assurances, and countries strengthened safety net by promoting access to the with which we have extradition arrangements. Lebanon, private rented sector for rough sleepers and establishing with which the UK has a memorandum of understanding best practice through our enhanced housing options on deportation with assurances, ratified the optional trailblazer programme. protocol in December 2008. We will also further improve access to health for Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill rough sleepers with multiple needs by developing a To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the range of responses to people with the most chaotic Written Answer by Lord Bach on 28 January (WA 56), lives and complex needs including the Department of whether as a matter of international law it would be Health’s health trainers programme and also piloting open to the United Kingdom to ratify the Fourth improved hospital discharge processes for rough sleepers. Protocol to the European Convention on Human In 2007-2008, £18.8 million of Supporting People Rights subject to reservations to article 2(1), similar grant was spent by local authorities to provide hostel to the reservations made by the United Kingdom and other accommodation to rough sleepers and single when ratifying the United Nations International homeless to ensure that they get the help they need to Covenant on Civil and Political Rights relating to rebuild their lives and that no one has to sleep rough. the particular nature of British nationality and immigration arrangements. [HL1141]

House of Lords Reform The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Question of Justice (Lord Bach): This would in theory be possible. Article 57 of the European Convention on Human Asked by Lord Morris of Aberavon Rights (which applies to the Fourth Protocol by virtue of Article 6 of that Protocol) permits a state to make a To ask Her Majesty’s Government in view of reservation in respect of any particular provision to their intention to bring forward proposals to reform the extent that any law then in force in its territory is the House of Lords, what is the purpose of inviting not in conformity with the provision. Reservations of nominations, other than Ministers of the Crown, to a general character are not permitted. However, under become Life Peers; and whether there are any new Article 19 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of instructions to the Appointments Commission. Treaties, any reservation to a treaty must not be [HL1475] incompatible with the object and purpose of the treaty, so it would depend on the terms of the reservations The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry required. of Justice (Lord Bach): Nomination for the creation of Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill party-political life Peers, other than those appointed To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their to serve as Ministers of the Crown, is a matter for the timetable for the start and completion of their political parties. The Appointments Commission is an second consultation on measures to comply with independent body accepting non-party political the judgment of the European Court of Human nominations and its remit has not changed. Rights in Hirst v United Kingdom requiring prisoners In its response to the 2008 Government White to be able to vote in Parliamentary elections. Paper on House of Lords reform, the Public [HL1384] Administration Select Committee made a number of recommendations about the process of appointment Lord Bach: In response to the Hirst (No. 2) judgment, to the House of Lords. The Government will respond the Government committed to undertake a two-stage in due course. consultation process. The first stage concluded in March 2007. The Government remain committed to carrying out this second, more detailed public consultation. An Human Rights announcement will be made in due course. Questions Asked by Lord Hylton Immigration: Sub-Saharan Africa Questions To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will request each foreign Government with whom Asked by Lord Luce they have a memorandum of understanding concerning To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many extradition or deportation to ratify the United Nations people originating from African countries south of Convention Against Torture and its optional protocol. the Sahara are living in the United Kingdom, broken [HL1025] down by country of origin. [HL1491] WA 51 Written Answers[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Written Answers WA 52

Lord Patel of Bradford: The information requested Table 1: Estimated population resident in the United Kingdom from falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics African countries south of the Sahara3, by country of birth4,5,6, April Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. 2007 to March 2008 thousands Letter from Karen Dunnell, National Statistician, to Estimate CV CI +/- Lord Luce, dated February 2009. Rwanda 3 D 2 As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply Sao Tome And 1D 1 to your Question asking how many people originating Principe from African countries south of the Sahara are living Senegal 1 D 2 in the United Kingdom, broken down by country of Seychelles 3 D 2 origin. (HL 1491) Sierra Leone 22 C 6 The Office for National Statistics collects data on Somalia 93 B 13 country of birth on the Annual Population Survey South Africa 209 A (APS) which covers residents of the UK. Estimates St Helena 1 D 2 from the APS for each country south of the Sahara Sudan 11 D 4 can be seen in Table 1. Swaziland : Table 1: Estimated population resident in the United Kingdom from Tanzania 26 C 7 3 4,5,6, African countries south of the Sahara , by country of birth April Togo : 19 2007 to March 2008 thousands Uganda 55 B 10 Estimate CV CI +/- Zambia 28 C 7 Zimbabwe 97 B 13 African 1,059 A 42 countries south Statistical Robustness1 of the Sahara Angola 13 C 5 Estimates are considered precise (a) 0 = CV < 5 Benin : Estimates are reasonably precise (b) 5 = CV < 10 Botswana 2 D 2 Estimates are considered acceptable (c) lo = CV < 15 Burkina - Estimates are not considered reliable for CV < 20 practical purposes (d) Burundi 2 D 2 Cameroon 11 D 4 Source: Annual Population Survey (APS)/Labour Force Survey (LFS), Cape Verde - ONS Central African 1D 1Totals may not am due to rounding Republic “ - ” = not available Chad - “ : ” insufficient data Comoros : Notes: Congo 10 D 4 1. Standard error is an estimate of the margin of error associated Congo 14 C 5 with a sample survey. The coefficient of variation (CV) indicates (Democratic the robustness of each estimate. It is defined as: Republic) % = (standard error ÷ estimate) x 100 Cole d’Ivoire 5 D 3 2. CI+/- is the upper(+) and lower(-) 95% confidence knits. It is Djibouti : defined as: 1.96 x standard error Equatorial : 3. The definition of countries south of the Sahara is taken from Guinea the United Nations definition found online here http:/ neas.un.org/unpp/definition.html Eritrea 8 D 4 4. Estimates are based on the Annual Population Survey (APS) Ethiopia 13 C 5 which is the Labour Force Survey (LFS) plus various sample Gabon - boosts. Gambia The 9 D 4 5. It should be noted that the LFS: Ghana 94 B 13 excludes students in halls who do not have a UK resident parent Guinea 2 D 2 excludes people in most other types of communal establishments Guinea- 1D 1(eg hotels, boarding houses, hostels, mobile home sites, etc) Bissau is grossed to population estimates of those living in private Kenya 128 B 15 households that only include migrants staying for 12 months or more. An adjustment is made for those who live in some NHS Lesotho 1 D 1 accommodation and halls of residence whose parents live in the Liberia 1 D 1 UK. For this reason the sum of those born in the UK and Madagascar - outside the UK may not agree with the published population Malawi 20 C 6 estimate. Mali : 6. The LFS weighting does not adjust for non-response bias by the country of birth variable. Mauritania : Mauritius 31 C 7 Asked by Lord Luce Mozambique 3 D 2 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the Namibia 2 D 2 range of professional skills held by the people Niger : originating from African countries south of the Nigeria 135 B 15 Sahara and now living in the United Kingdom, Reunion : broken down by country of origin. [HL1492] WA 53 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 54

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, small and any estimates would be unreliable. The Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills (Lord levels given in the table below are National Qualifications Young of Norwood Green): The tables below show the Framework (NQF) levels and the data are taken from breakdown of qualification levels of working-age adults1 born in African countries south of the Sahara2.We the 2007 annual population survey (APS) as this provided are unable to break this down by country of origin or the greatest sample size and therefore the most reliable professional occupation as the sample sizes are too estimates.

Numbers breakdown Occupation Group Level 4 and above Level 3 Level 2 Below Level 2 No qualifications Total

Managers and 38,400 9,400 11,000 8,300 1,600 68,700 Senior Officials Professional 60,800 4,900 2,700 4,300 * 73,200 occupations Associate 50,000 10,000 8,100 6,800 400 75,400 Professional and Technical Administrative and 16,100 10,900 11,100 10,300 2,100 50,500 Secretarial Skilled Trades 6,200 5,700 6,600 5,000 2,700 26,200 Occupations Personal Service 15,500 10,700 16,400 8,900 4,200 55,800 Occupations Sales and 8,400 5,100 8,400 8,700 3,900 34,500 Customer Service Occupations Process, Plant and 4,000 3,200 7,100 8,100 8,700 31,000 Machine Operatives Elementary 13,400 9,500 15,400 22,000 15,400 75,700 Occupations Total3 212,700 69,500 86,800 82,400 39,400 490,900

Percentage Breakdown Occupation Group Level 4 and above Level 3 Level 2 Below Level 2 No qualifications Total

Managers and Senior 56% 14% 16% 12% 2% 14% Officials Professional occupations 83% 7% 4% 6% * 15% Associate Professional 66% 13% 11% 9% 1 % 15% and Technical Administrative and 32% 22% 22% 20% 4% 10% Secretarial Skilled Trades 24% 22% 25% 19% 10% 5% Occupations Personal Service 28% 19% 29% 16% 8% 11% Occupations Sales and Customer 24% 15% 24% 25% 11% 7% Service Occupations Process, Plant and 13% 10% 23% 26% 28% 6% Machine Operatives Elementary Occupations 18% 13% 20% 29% 20% 15% Total4 43% 14% 18% 17% 8% 100%

1 Men aged 19-64 and women aged 19-59. ie, the true value of an estimate may be up to 8 percentage points above or below the figure stated. 2 Includes Angola, Benin, Sao Tome and Principe, Republic of Congo, Central African Republic, Cameroon, Chad, Equatorial * Numbers are too small and have been suppressed. Guinea, Gabon, Sudan, Southern Sudan, Uganda, Horn of Source: Africa, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Djibouti, Somalia, Botswana, 2007 annual population survey (APS). The 2008 APS is not yet Comoros, Lesotho, Madagascar, Malawi, Mozambique, available Mauritius, Namibia, Seychelles, South Africa, Swaziland, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Maghreb, Mauritania, The Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, Liberia, Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Burkina Faso, Cote India: Freedom of Religion d’Ivoire, Guinea-Bissau, Mali, Niger, Senegal, Togo. Question 3 This is the total of the above occupational groups and does not include unemployed people. Asked by Lord Avebury 4 This is the total of the above occupational groups and does not To ask Her Majesty’s Government what their include unemployed people. response is to the recommendations by United Nations The percentages above are subject to sampling variability. Most Rapporteurs on freedom of religion or belief about of the confidence intervals range from 3 to 8 percentage points— the extension of Scheduled Caste status to Muslims WA 55 Written Answers[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Written Answers WA 56

and Christians in India; and whether they will ask Iran: Human Rights the Commonwealth Human Rights Initiative to Question pursue the matter. [HL1385] Asked by Lord Hylton

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): We welcome the report United Nations Secretary-General and the presidency by the United Nations special rapporteur on freedom of the European Union have received satisfactory of religion following her recent visit to India. It will replies from the Government of Iran, following provide a useful point of reference for human rights their representations about the personal safety of issues in India including as part of the ongoing EU-India Dr Shirin Ebadi and her ability to function as a human rights dialogue. The Government have not lawyer in Iran. [HL1252] asked the Commonwealth Human Rights Initiative, an independent international non-governmental The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth organisation, to pursue the matter. We, and our EU Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): Despite several colleagues, will continue to monitor the situation and representations to the Iranian authorities regarding raise any concerns about incidents of religious intolerance the treatment of Dr Shirin Ebadi, we have not received in India with the appropriate human rights agencies any reassurances from the Government of Iran and as in India. such we remain very concerned about her safety. We continue to monitor the situation closely and urge the Iranian Government to authorise the re-opening of Iran Dr Ebadi’s Human Rights Defenders Centre and end Question the intimidation campaign against her and her staff. Asked by Lord Judd Iraq To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether Question adherence to the international rule of law and to the United Kingdom’s obligations to the United Asked by Lord Avebury Nations will remain paramount in their future policy To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they towards Iran. [HL1323] will ask the government of Iraq why they insisted on the reopening of the Baghdad Museum, against The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth the advice of staff who were still working on the Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): As a matter of absolute rearrangement and reclassification of antiquities principle, UK policy is made in accordance with that had been disturbed during the invasion of Iraq international law, and we take our obligations to the and its aftermath. [HL1386] UN very seriously. We also expect Iran to abide by its own international The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth obligations, including by respecting the international Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): The decision to reopen human rights commitments to which it is signed up, the Baghdad Museum is an issue for the museum’s and abiding by the five UN Security Council resolutions administration together with the Government of Iraq. passed since 31 July 2006. Iraq’s museums and archaeological sites have suffered great damage. The UK firmly supports the Government of Iraq in their efforts to protect and restore Iraq’s Iran: British Council cultural heritage and has been pleased to support Question projects to this effect with the British Museum and British Library. Asked by Lord Avebury To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Israel will ask the Government of Iran to reconsider their Question actions against British Council staff which have led to the suspension of the British Council’s operations Asked by Lord Dykes in Iran. [HL1319] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have received any representations from members of The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth the public expressing concern for the future viability Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): We have been very clear of the state of Israel. [HL1262] with the Iranians that we consider this behaviour unacceptable, and that they should allow the British The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Council to restart its operation as soon as possible. Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): We receive a great deal The Iranians have said that they would be prepared to of correspondence from members of the public expressing negotiate a new cultural co-operation agreement which concern about the current situation in the Middle would allow the British Council to re-open. However, East. Since the Gaza crisis began we have received they have not responded to our attempts to start more than 1,800 letters. We do not hold statistics on discussions on this. how many concern the viability of Israel. WA 57 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 58

Israel and Palestine The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Questions Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): We welcome President Barack Obama’s commitment to pursue peace in the Asked by Lord Hylton Middle East immediately. We will seek to work with To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment the new Government of the United States to deliver they have made of the contribution the current such a peace. review of the European Union–Israel Association Asked by Lord Dykes Agreement will make to the achievement of genuine peace between Israel and Palestine. [HL522] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will bring to the attention of President Obama the The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth 46 vetoes exercised by previous governments of the Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): Achieving such peace is United States since 1968 in relation to United Nations a key objective of UK and EU policy. It is at the heart Security Council Resolutions about the Occupied of our relations with Israel—and others in the region. Territories. [HL1099] We expect the new EU-Israel Association Agreement to provide further opportunities to work with Israel to Lord Malloch-Brown: We welcomed US support in secure such peace. December for UN Security Council Resolution 1850 which set out the vision of a two-state solution. We Asked by Lord Dykes will work closely with the Obama Administration, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment including at the UN, to work to create an independent they have made of the implications for the quartet’s Palestinian state living alongside a secure Israel. Middle East envoy, Tony Blair, of the appointment Asked by Lord Dykes of Senator George Mitchell. [HL1263] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps Lord Malloch-Brown: The UK welcomes the appointment they will take within the appropriate framework to of Senator Mitchell. We do not see any implication for enhance contacts with Hamas to assist the long-term the role of Tony Blair, who focuses on improving the peace process in the Middle East. [HL1100] day to day life of Palestinians. We look forward to working with both Senator Mitchell and Tony Blair to Lord Malloch-Brown: We do not believe it is productive make real progress towards peace in 2009. to talk to Hamas directly until it makes significant movement towards the quartet principles of rejecting violence, accepting Israel’s right to exist and recognising Malaysia: War Crimes previous agreements. The Arab League has mandated Question Egypt to communicate with Hamas. We are in regular contact with both the Arab League and Egypt. Asked by Lord Dykes To ask Her Majesty’s Government what response they will give to the government and parliament of Money: Banknotes Malaysia following their recent proposals for war Question crimes trials for countries that do not support the Asked by Lord Laird International Criminal Court. [HL1229] To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth banknotes issued by United Kingdom commercial Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): We are aware of the banks are currently in circulation; of which proposal by former Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir denominations; and what is their total value by to convene a war crimes tribunal in Malaysia. The bank. [HL1219] International Criminal Court (ICC) has jurisdiction, under the Rome Statute, for genocide, war crimes and The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury crimes against humanity. We believe that the court will (Lord Myners): Commercial banks that issue their be a key element in the international community’s own banknotes are required by law to submit data to fight to end impunity for those who have committed HM Revenue and Customs regarding their average the world’s most serious crimes. The UK is a strong notes in circulation over a four-week period. The total supporter of the ICC and strengthening that court value of notes in circulation reported for the period will be the focus of our efforts. ending 24 January 2009 are as follows:

Total value of Total value of notes of notes of Middle East Peace Process denomination denomination Questions £5 and upwards under £5 Total Asked by Lord Dykes The Bank of 614,755,824 278,105 615,033,929 Ireland To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment First Trust 333,753,000 0 333,753,000 they have made of the views of the new Government Bank of the United States in respect of Middle East The Northern 304,884,356 444,248 305,328,604 Bank Limited peace. [HL1098] WA 59 Written Answers[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Written Answers WA 60

Both nationality and national identity are currently Total value of Total value of notes of notes of collected in social surveys, such as the Labour Force denomination denomination Survey and the Annual Population Survey. £5 and upwards under £5 Total

The Ulster 466,666,935 0 466,666,935 Bank Limited Northern Ireland Office: Bonuses Questions Total value of Total value of Asked by Lord Laird notes of notes of denomination denomination £5 and upwards under £5 Total To ask Her Majesty’s Government what directions they gave to the Northern Ireland Office concerning Bank of 954,088,329 4,019,819 958,108,147 the payment of staff bonuses. [HL1106] Scotland The Royal Bank 1,147,074,310 16,848,226 1,163,922,536 of Scotland Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: The SCS reward Clydesdale 1,158,172,429 0 1,158,172,429 arrangements are managed centrally by the Cabinet Bank Office and are based on recommendations by the independent Senior Salaries Review Body, including the size of the non-consolidated performance related National Institute for Health and Clinical pot. The reward arrangements for staff below SCS are delegated to individual departments, and agreed with Excellence HM Treasury, including that element of the pay bill Question which can be used for bonuses. Asked by Baroness Noakes Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence Written Answer by the Lord President (Baroness has sufficient funding to allow it to undertake studies Royall of Blaisdon) on 26 January (WA 16) concerning and to issue guidance on issues that are already bonus payments made to staff of the Northern awaiting further work. [HL1430] Ireland Office, since when the special bonus scheme has mirrored that of the Northern Ireland Civil Service; how that decision was taken; by whom; The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, whether the appropriate trade unions were consulted; Department of Health (Lord Darzi of Denham): The and, if so, what was their view. [HL1184] National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence is sufficiently resourced to deliver the activity set out Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: The special bonus in its business plan. scheme was introduced for all non-industrial staff in the Northern Ireland Civil Service in 1989. An equivalent scheme was introduced in the Northern Ireland Office Nationality following pay delegation in 1998. The trade union side Question was consulted and was unable to agree fully with the terms of the scheme. Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Office for National Statistics recognises English as To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Written Answer by the Baroness Royall of Blaisdon a nationality. [HL1428] on 3 February (WA 111) concerning the payment of bonuses to staff in the Northern Ireland Office, Lord Patel of Bradford: The information requested what consideration has been given to amending the falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics spending review settlements to remove or reduce Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. the elements of bonus payments. [HL1334] Letter from Karen Dunnell, National Statistician, to Lord Stoddart of Swindon, dated February 2009. Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: No consideration has been given to amending the spending review settlements. As National Statistician I have been asked to reply For Senior Civil Service staff we are awaiting the to your Question asking Her Majesty’s Government report of the Senior Salaries Review Body. For staff at whether the Office for National Statistics recognises grades D2 to A, we are awaiting HM Treasury and English as a nationality; and, if not, why. (HL1428) Cabinet Office guidelines on the pay remit. The Office for National Statistics (ONS) does recognise English as a national identity. For the 2011 Census, we Asked by Lord Laird have proposed asking everyone to describe their national To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the identity. English is one of the specific tick boxes. Written Answer by Baroness Royall of Blaisdon on However ONS treats nationality as synonymous 4 February (WA 132) concerning the reduction with citizenship, which has a legal definition related to of Northern Ireland Office staff, whether the passport eligibility. ONS is planning to ask a citizenship administrative budgets include bonus payments to question in the 2011 Census, based upon passport staff and, if so, whether they will be reviewed. eligibility. This will measure UK citizenship. [HL1371] WA 61 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 62

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: Bonus payments are Northern Ireland Office: Staff made from administration cost budgets. All budgets Question are reviewed on a regular basis. Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Northern Ireland Office: Electricity new staff were recruited by the Northern Ireland Question Office in 2008. [HL1288] Asked by Lord Laird Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: Eighty new permanent To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much staff were recruited by the Northern Ireland Office in was spent on electricity by the Northern Ireland 2008. The majority of these new posts are required to Office in each of the past five years. [HL1432] deliver front-line services.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: The following table shows the department’s (excluding agencies and executive Northern Ireland Office: Taxis NDPBs) electricity expenditure for the past five financial Question years. Asked by Lord Laird Financial Year Electricity Expenditure (£’000s) To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Written Answer by Baroness Royall of Blaisdon on 2007-08 637 29 January (WA 76) regarding expenditure on taxis 2006-07 565 by the Northern Ireland Office in the first two 2005-06 541 weeks of the 2007-08 financial year, what was the 2004-05 383 ″disproportionate cost″ of providing the costs of 2003-04 386 those journeys included within incidental expenses; who calculated the cost; and on what basis. The Northern Ireland Office (NIO) has undertaken [HL1401] various initiatives to ensure energy efficiency such as: presentations to staff on sustainable development, Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: Accurate expenditure which includes advice on energy efficiency; on taxi journeys included within incidental expenses provision of information on the department’s could only be recorded by means of a manual investigation intranet, which focuses the need to turn off PCs, of all travel and subsistence claims since that two-week monitors, printers and copiers when they are not in period. use; Departmental records show that for the 2007-08 using wind farms as a form of electricity supply. financial year, there were 4,814 travel and subsistence Twenty-five per cent of the supply to the Stormont claims processed. It would therefore be difficult to Estate is provided in this way; measure the cost of a manual investigation with a high premises officers in each of the NIO’s buildings are degree of accuracy, but it would certainly be higher required to report electricity meter readings on a that the disproportionate cost threshold of £750. monthly basis. This report is then used to analyse energy use and cost; and Northern Ireland Office: Travel the departmental board recently endorsed a Questions Cabinet Office strategy on greening ICT. The key objectives of this initiative are to make ICT more Asked by Lord Laird energy efficient and reduce CO emissions. 2 To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Written Answer by Baroness Royall of Blaisdon on 4 February (WA 132) concerning the cost of travel Northern Ireland Office: Overtime to Great Britain, what is the estimated cost of Question providing the amount paid for such travel for Northern Asked by Lord Laird Ireland Office staff in each of the past five years and why is that considered disproportionate. To ask Her Majesty’s Government under what [HL1372] circumstances overtime payments are made to officials of the Northern Ireland Office; who authorises Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: Costs relating to staff such activities; and how it is monitored. [HL1538] travel to Great Britain are held in a variety of expenditure codes within the travel heading. As these codes also Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: Overtime may be paid show costs for travel within Northern Ireland, the to staff at grades D2 to A and is worked in response to isolation of costs for journeys to Great Britain would business needs. Line managers authorise the working involve a manual investigation of payments. of overtime in advance and approve subsequent claims. Our records show that for the 2007-08 financial Budget managers monitor and control the use of year alone there were 26,885 transactions within these overtime. travel codes. It would therefore be very difficult to WA 63 Written Answers[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Written Answers WA 64 measure the cost of a manual investigation with any prohibits unjustified discrimination in the enjoyment degree of accuracy, but it would certainly be much of any other of the convention rights. In addition, higher that the disproportionate cost threshold of Section 75 of the Northern Ireland 1998 places a duty £750. on public authorities in Northern Ireland to have Asked by Lord Laird regard to the need to promote equality of opportunity between certain groups, including persons of different To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much religious belief and political opinion. was paid in travel costs by the Northern Ireland Under the terms of the 1998 Belfast agreement, the Office in each of the past five financial years for Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission was staff on official business. [HL1468] tasked with consulting and advising on the scope for additional rights for inclusion in a Bill of Rights for Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: The following table Northern Ireland; the agreement stated that such rights shows the department’s (excluding agencies and executive were to “reflect the principles of mutual respect for the NDPBs) travel expenditure for the last five financial identity and ethos of both communities and parity of years. esteem”.

Financial Year Travel Expenditure (£’000s)

2007-08 3,187 Pakistan 2006-07 3,518 Question 2005-06 3,350 Asked by Lord Avebury 2004-05 3,091 2003-04 3,036 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have held with the Government of the United The department advises that staff should ensure States following President Obama’s statement in that any business-related journeys are a necessity and January that he would offer them move help to that all alternative methods of carrying out the tasks counter extremism; and whether, in particular, they to be performed are investigated—for example, use of will propose a co-ordinated programme to help the video conferencing equipment to reduce the need to Pakistani authorities in arresting Maulana Fazlullah travel to meetings. The Northern Ireland Office has and other Taliban leaders in Swat for the murders offices in both Belfast and London and due to the of police officers and other serious crimes. [HL1231] nature of the work it carries out, travel to Great Britain by its staff is sometimes unavoidable. Where this is the case, the most cost-effective means of travelling The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth is sought. Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): We have had a series of discussions with the US Administration on issues surrounding extremism, including during my right Northern Ireland Parades Commission honourable friend the Foreign Secretary’s visit to Question Washington on 3 February 2009 and the visit to Asked by Lord Laird London of the US Special Representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan, Richard Holbrooke, on 5 February To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the 2009. Written Answer by the Baroness Royall of Blaisdon We support the Government of Pakistan in their on 26 January (WA 17) concerning salary payments efforts to tackle violent extremist groups, including the to the Northern Ireland Parades Commission, what Taliban and al-Qaeda. We have a broad programme of factors were considered in the review of salaries counter-terrorism co-operation with Pakistan, including undertaken by the Secretary of State. [HL1187] capacity building assistance to law enforcement and projects aimed at countering the drivers of radicalisation. Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: The Secretary of State We support Pakistan’s “multi-pronged” approach to considered propriety and his legal obligations under tackling the security threat, combining security measures the Public Processions (Northern Ireland) Act 1998 with improvements in development and governance. (as amended). We aim to ensure that our approach and that of the US Government’s are complementary. Northern Ireland: Parity of Esteem Question Pakistan: Blasphemy Laws Asked by Lord Laird Questions To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, in Asked by Lord Patten the context of Northern Ireland, the promotion of equality and parity of esteem is a human right. To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the [HL993] Written Answer by Lord Malloch-Brown on 22 January (WA228–29), whether any of the Government-funded Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: There is no specific work in Pakistan is aimed specifically at providing right along these lines contained in the Human Rights protection for lawyers and other advocates for those Act 1998 or in the European Convention on Human facing prosecution for blasphemy; and, if so, what Rights (ECHR). However, Article 14 of the ECHR that costs. [HL1126] WA 65 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 66

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth the role and responsibilities of parents as citizens in Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): Our high commission our society, as discussed in the Children’s Plan as in Islamabad supports a range of programme and “most important in raising, caring for, maintaining project work to promote human rights in Pakistan. and educating future generations of citizens”. This includes projects to improve access to justice by [HL1437] supporting the creation of a lawyers’ network of human rights advocates and support for community-based The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, lawyers. There is no funding specifically for the protection Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness of those advocates acting for people facing prosecution Morgan of Drefelin): The Making Sense of Citizenship for blasphemy. handbook, published in 2006, is a continuing professional Asked by Lord Avebury development (CPD) resource for schools and it is intended to improve teachers’ subject knowledge and To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they teaching strategies. The citizenship curriculum equips will make representations to the Government of young people with the knowledge, skills and understanding Pakistan about the detention in custody of four to play an effective role in public life. The roles and children on charges of blasphemy and about the responsibilities of parents are covered in particular in use of the blasphemy law in Pakistan against members personal, social health and economic education. of the Ahmadiyya Muslim community. [HL1132] Passports Lord Malloch-Brown: Representatives of the Ahmadiyya community in Pakistan are updating officials Questions at our high commission as the case of the four children Asked by Lord Marlesford progresses through the district court. With our EU partners, we regularly call for the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what charge Government of Pakistan to take measures to protect is made to the holder for United Kingdom passports freedom of religion or belief and repeal or reform issued by United Kingdom diplomatic missions discriminatory blasphemy legislation for the benefit of overseas; how that compares with the charge made all minority communities in Pakistan, including the for United Kingdom passports issued in the United Ahmadiyyas. Kingdom; whether those charges have to be paid before the passport is issued; and whether they Asked by Lord Patten cover the full costs of the service. [HL1051] To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Written Answer by Lord Malloch-Brown on 20 January The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth (WA 199), whether they are monitoring the Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): Charges for UK passports commitment from the Government of Pakistan to issued by UK diplomatic missions overseas are as introduce checks that would regulate investigations follows: into allegations against individuals or organisations £119.00—32-page adult passport; accused of apostasy and blasphemy; and whether £76.00—32-page child (under-16) passport; they will be reporting on such monitoring. [HL1316] £144.00—48-page “jumbo” passport; £55.00—emergency passport; and Lord Malloch-Brown: The Government continue to monitor closely the application of blasphemy legislation £70.50—temporary passport. in Pakistan. This commitment was made by the Charges for UK passports issued in the United Government of Pakistan in their response to the working Kingdom are as follows: group on the UN Human Rights Council’s universal periodic review (UPR) in May 2008. During the UPR Fast Track In Fast Collect we asked how the Government of Pakistan planned to Category Posted Person Track Premium implement the human rights instruments it had ratified to safeguard the rights of all its citizens, including Adult £72 £97 £109 £114 non-Muslim minorities, by repealing laws that discriminate Child £46 £81 £91 £94 against them. Since the UPR, the Government of Jumbo £85 £105 £109 £123 Pakistan have not instituted any administrative checks Collective £39 £54 to carry out this commitment. The UK with our EU partners therefore raised this in January through a The Identity and Passport Service (IPS) sets the demarche which called for progress on this commitment. fees for, and issues, approximately 6 million passports every year to British nationals living in the UK. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) is responsible Parents for providing a passport issuing service to British Question nationals living or travelling abroad. The FCO issues Asked by Lord Northbourne fewer than 400,000 passports a year from 100 locations. Although we run an efficient operation, we cannot To ask Her Majesty’s Government why the match the economies of scale that the IPS is able to Department for Education and Skills’ publication muster in issuing more than 10 times as many passports Making Sense of Citizenship makes no reference to from just seven locations. WA 67 Written Answers[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Written Answers WA 68

The FCO is obliged by the Treasury to recover the The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury full costs of delivering the consular service, which (Lord Myners): The deposit guarantee schemes directive includes the issuing of passports. The fees are calculated (94/19/EC) sets the minimum terms on which depositors on the basis of the cost of staff, accommodation and are protected throughout the EU. overheads involved proportionate to the average time Deposit taking is a regulated activity. Firms offering taken worldwide to perform the service. The calculations savings accounts must be authorised and supervised are carefully scrutinised by the Treasury, approved by by the appropriate regulator. Depositors in savings the Privy Council and laid before Parliament. accounts that are managed by firms authorised by the All charges for passports issued overseas need to be Financial Services Authority are eligible for protection paid for in full before the passport is issued. In exceptional by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme. Full circumstances an emergency passport may be issued details of the level of guarantee and the eligibility where the customer is not able to pay. However, they criteria for compensation are available at www.fscs.org.uk. will be required to sign an undertaking to repay and Depositors in savings accounts that are managed by an invoice will be issued subsequently to recover the firms authorised by a regulator in another country are outstanding moneys. eligible for protection by the deposit guarantee scheme Asked by Lord Laird in that country. Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many passports were issued by the British Embassy in To ask Her Majesty’s Government what Dublin in each of the past five years. [HL1466] representations they have made to the Government of the Republic of Ireland concerning the future Lord Malloch-Brown: The number of passports issued funding of financial services provided by the Bank through our embassy in Dublin in each of the past five of Ireland through United Kingdom Post Offices. financial years is as follows: [HL1329] Lord Myners: The provision of financial services Financial Year Total No. of Passports through United Kingdom post offices is a commercial 2003-04 10,024 matter between the Post Office and contracting firms. 2004-05 10,893 2005-06 10,817 Presbyterian Mutual Society 2006-07 11,817 Question 2007-08 9,671 Asked by Lord Trimble These figures have been taken from the consular To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures annual returns. they are considering with regard to the protection of depositors in the Presbyterian Mutual Society. [HL1165] Police: Northern Ireland Question The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Myners): The Presbyterian Mutual Society (PMS) Asked by Lord Laird is an industrial and provident society registered under To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps the Industrial and Provident Societies Act (Northern they are taking to ensure that police officers in Ireland) 1969. The Department of Enterprise, Trade Northern Ireland are recruited in a fair manner, and Investment in Northern Ireland is the registrar. irrespective of religion. [HL1396] The administrator of PMS has said that it is helping the FSA with its inquiries into activities carried out by Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: The recruiting process the firm in relation to the Financial Services and for police officers assesses candidate competency against Markets Act 2000. The Government are also carrying the role profile for the job. This is consistent with out a review of the regulatory framework for credit practice across the UK. Competencies tested reflect unions and industrial and provident societies in Northern national standards and measure ability to perform Ireland in association with the Department of Enterprise, the role. Trade and Investment in Northern Ireland, which is The 50:50 recruitment procedures are only applicable the department with responsibility for these matters to those applicants in the merit pool, by which time within the devolved Administration. This review was they have demonstrated that they meet the required announced at PBR 2008. UK standards. Both inquiries are at an early stage and consequently it would be premature for the Government or the FSA to offer further comment at this stage. Post Office: Banking Questions Republic of Ireland: Treaties Asked by Lord Lawson of Blaby Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government what protection Asked by Lord Laird they offer, through the United Kingdom Financial To ask Her Majesty’s Government what treaties Services Compensation Scheme or in any other they have signed with the Republic of Ireland since way, to United Kingdom depositors with savings 1997; what was their purpose; and, in each case, accounts at the Post Office. [HL904] how they monitor them. [HL1332] WA 69 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 70

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Publications: Treaty Series No. TS 05112000 : Cm Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): Please find below a list 4706 http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-the-fco/publications/ of treaties between the United Kingdom of Great treaty-command-papers-ems/treaty-command-papers Britain and Northern Ireland and the Government of -by-date/treaty-command-papers-2000/ (see May 2000) Ireland that have been signed since 1997. In each case Title “Agreement between the Government of the these treaties were negotiated and signed to further the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland UK’s bilateral relationship with Ireland on matters of and the Government of Ireland establishing a North/South shared interest. They encompass a range of topics and Ministerial Council”. as such the monitoring arrangements are tailored to the individual treaty in question. Signed: 08/03/1999 Title “Agreement between the Government of the EIF: 02/12/1999 United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland Publications: Treaty Series No. TS 053 2000: Cm and the Government of the Republic of Ireland 4708 http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-the-fco/publications/ Establishing the Independent International Commission treaty-command-papers-ems/treaty-command-papers on Decommissioning” -by-date/treaty-command-papers-2000/ )(see May 2000) Signed: 26/08/1997 Title “Agreement between the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland Entry Into Force (EIF): 24/09/1997 and the Government of Ireland establishing a British-Irish Publications: Treaty Series No. TS 054/ 1997: Cm Intergovernmental Conference”. 3753 http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-the-fco/publications/ Signed: 08/03/1999 treaty-command-papers-ems/treaty-command-papers -by-date/treaty-command-papers-1997/ EIF: 02/12/1999 See “September 1997”. Publications: Treaty Series No. TS 05412000: Cm 4709 Title “Agreement between the Government of the http://www.fco.gov.uklen/about-the-fco/ United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland publications/treaty-command-papers-ems/treaty- and the Government of Ireland (Good Friday command-papers-by-date/treaty-command-papers- Agreement)” 2000/ (see May 2000) Signed: 10/04/1998 Title “Agreement between the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland EIF: 02/12/1999 and the Government of Ireland establishing a British-Irish Publications: Treaty Series No. TS 050/ 2000: Cm Council”. 4705 http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-the-fco/publications/ Signed: 08/03/1999 treaty-command-papers-ems/treaty-command-papers EIF: 02/12/1999 -by-date/treaty-command-papers-2000/ (see “May 2000”) Publications: Treaty Series No. TS 055 2000: Cm 4710 Title “Protocol between the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland http://www.fco.gov.uk/enlabout-the-fco/ and the Government of Ireland amending the Convention publicationsltreaty-command-papers-emsltreaty- for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention command-papers-by-date/treaty-command-papers- of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on income and 2000/ (see May 2000) Capital Gains signed at Dublin on 2 June 1976, as Title “Agreement between the Government of the amended by the Protocols signed at Dublin on 28 October United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland 1976 and at London on 7 November 1994.” and the Government of Ireland establishing the Signed: 04/11/1998 Independent Commission for the Location of Victims’ Remains”. EIF: 23/12/1998 Signed: 27/04/1999 Publications: Treaty Series No. TS 023/ 1999: Cm 4322 http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-the-fco/publications/ EIF: 28/05/1999 treaty-command-papers-ems/treaty-command-papers Publications: Treaty Series No. TS 070 1999: Cm 4473 -by-date/treaty-command-papers .1999/ (see April 1999) http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-the-fco/publications/ Title “Agreement between the United Kingdom of treaty-command-papers-ems/treaty-command-papers Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Government -by-date/treaty-command-papers-1999/ (see November of Ireland concerning Mutual Assistance in Relation 1999) to Criminal Matters.” Title “Exchange of Letters between the Government Signed: 26/11/1998 of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Government of Ireland concerning EIF: 01/06/2004 the interpretation of certain terms in the Agreement Publications: Ireland No.006/1999: Cm 4306 establishing Implementation Bodies”. Title “Agreement between the Government of the Signed: 18/06/1999 United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland EIF: 02/12/1999 and the Government of Ireland establishing Implementation Bodies.” Publications: Treaty Series No. TS 052/ 2000: Cm 4707 http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-the-fco/publications/ Signed: 08/03/1999 treaty-command-papers-ems/treaty-command-papers EIF: 02/12/1999 -by-date/treaty-command-papers-2000/ (see May 2000) WA 71 Written Answers[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Written Answers WA 72

Title “Exchange of Letters between the Government Title: Convention on Social Security between the of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain Ireland and the Government of Ireland amending the and Northern Ireland and the Government of Ireland. Agreement concerning the International Fund for Ireland Signed: 14/12/2004 done at London and Dublin on 18 September 1986”. EIF: 01/10/2007 Signed 27/09/2000 and 10/10/2000 Publications: Treaty Series No. TS 030/2007: Cm 7277. EIF: 10/10/2000 http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-the-fco/ Publications: Treaty Series No. TS 131/ 2000: Cm 5007 publications/treaty-command-papers-ems/treaty- Title “Exchange of Notes between the Government command-papers-by-date/treaty-command-papers- of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern 2007/ (see Nov 2007). Ireland and the Government of Ireland concerning Title: Agreement between the Government of the Certain Decisions of the North/South Ministerial Council United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland established by the Agreement between the two and the Government of Ireland on Co-operation on Governments signed at Dublin on 8 March 1999 and Criminal Justice Matters. related matters”. Signed: 26/07/2005 Signed: 19/11/2002 EIF: 03/12/2002 EIF: 10/12/2008 Publications: Treaty Series No. TS 054/ 2002: Cm 5708 Publications: Ireland no.001/2006: Cm 6931. http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-the-fco/publications/ http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-the-fco/ treaty-command-papers-ems/treaty-command-papers publications/treaty-command-papers-ems/treaty- -by-date/treaty-command-papers-2002/ (see Dec 2002) command-papers-by-date/treaty-command-papers- Title “Agreement between the Government of the 2006/ I (see October 2006). United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland Title “Agreement between the Government of the and the Government of Ireland on Police Co-operation”. United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland Signed: 29/04/2002 and the Government of Ireland concerning practical changes to the operations of the institutions established This Agreement has not yet entered into force by the Agreement between the Government of the Publications: Ireland No.001/ 2002: Cm 5579. United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland Title “Agreement between the Government of the and the Government of Ireland done at Belfast on the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland 10th day of April 1988”. and the Government of Ireland establishing the Signed: 22/03/2007 Independent Monitoring Commission”. EIF: 09/05/2007 Signed: 25/11/2003 Publications: Ireland 001/2007: Cm 7078. EIF: 07/01/2004 Publications: Treaty Series No. TS 027/ 2004: Cm 6263 http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-the-fco/publications/ Revenue and Customs: Staff treaty-command-papers-ems/treaty-command-papers Question -by-date/treaty-command-papers-2002/ (see July 2004). Asked by Lord Laird Title “Agreement between the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the and the Government of Ireland on the Early Notification Written Answer by Lord Davies of Oldham on of a Nuclear Accident or Incident of Radiological 18 December 2008 (WA 79), how many of the staff Significance and the Exchange of Information concerning leaving HM Revenue and Customs between 2005 the Operation and Management of Nuclear Facilities and 2008 were made redundant; what was the cost or Activities”. of their severance and redundancy payments; and Signed: 10/12/2004 how many of the 13,874 permanent staff recruited EIF: 10/12/2004 from 2005 to 2008 had previously worked for HM Revenue and Customs and received severance Publications: Treaty Series No. TS 008/2005 : Cm payments. [HL1285] 6494 http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-the-fco/publications/ treaty-command-papers-ems/treaty-command-papers -by-date/treaty-command-papers-2002/ (see March 2005). The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Myners): In HMRC between 2005 and 2008 in Title “Agreement between the Government of the grades AA to grade 6 only one permanent member of United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland staff accepted voluntary redundancy due to personal and the Government of Ireland on the Reciprocal circumstances (below Senior Civil Service). I can confirm Holding of Stocks of Crude Oil and/or Petroleum that the officer concerned has not been re-employed Products”. by the department. There were no compulsory Signed: 12/04/2005 redundancies. EIF: 12/04/2005 Of the 13,874 staff recruited between 2005 and Publications: Treaty Series No. TS 020/2005 : Cm 6569 2008 some of this number will have been employed http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-the-fco/publications/ previously on a fixed term contract with HMRC. Staff treaty-command-papers-ems/treaty-command-papers in this position who are offered permanent contracts -by-date/treaty-command-papers-2005/ (see June 2005). are either recruited through fair and open competition WA 73 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 74 or are successful in a internal promotion exercise. expected to come to the UK for the G20 Summit in Fixed-term appointees are eligible to apply for posts April. It is particularly important to engage with offered in this way. Russia on economic issues, to achieve a co-ordinated Fixed-term appointees are not offered severance global response to the current crisis, and to maintain payments but are entitled to a small payment as statutory our important trade and investment relationship. compensation where they have been made redundant However, significant differences remain. In our bilateral at the end of their contract. They will have received an relationship, we have outstanding issues over the refusal average of two weeks salary. This payment is not at of Russia to provide real co-operation with the the discretion of HMRC. Around 1,000 staff received investigation into the murder of Alexander Litvinenko the statutory compensation. This may include some of and over the closure of British Council offices in St the staff now permanently employed but exact numbers Petersburg and Ekaterinburg. Internationally we remain are too costly and resource intensive to obtain. deeply concerned by Russia’s breach of its international obligations in Georgia. We will continue to press Russia to resolve these issues. Roads: Traffic Signs Question Asked by Lord Hylton Asked by Lord Lucas To ask Her Majesty’s Government what direct and multilateral representations they have made to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps the Government of Russia about the recent killings they have taken to remove non-prescribed illegal of Stanislav Markielov, journalist, and Anastasia obstructions of the highway and prescribed traffic Babulova, lawyer, in a public place. [HL1383] signs erected in locations not compliant with the directions of the Secretary of State for Transport Lord Malloch-Brown: I refer the noble Lord to the which have a proven link to injury or death. answer given by my noble friend Lord Davies of [HL1318] Oldham on 11 February 2009, Official Report, col. WA 206. The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Lord Adonis): The powers and duties to remove (or to effect the removal) of obstructions from the highway Schools: Bullying under the Highways Act 1980 primarily rest with the Questions relevant highway authority for each highway. In respect of the motorway and all-purpose trunk road network Asked by Baroness Gould of Potternewton in England, for which the Secretary of State is the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment highway authority, the Highways Agency undertakes they have made of the extent of sexual bullying in these matters as and when necessary. This information schools. [HL1404] can be provided by the Highways Agency only at disproportionate cost. To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they To date, the Secretary of State has not exercised the expect to publish guidance to help schools tackle power in Section 69(3) of the Road Traffic Regulation sexual bullying. [HL1405] Act 1984 relating to the removal of signs by giving directions to a local traffic authority. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness Morgan of Drefelin): The department will be launching Russia our new guidance on how to prevent and tackle bullying Questions related to gender and gender identity in the spring. We will ensure that the issue of sexual bullying and sexual Asked by Lord Dykes harassment is considered and addressed in this guidance. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps We do not collect data on sexual bullying centrally they will propose to improve United Kingdom relations although we are aware of some ad hoc surveys. We with the Russian Federation. [HL1227] intend to introduce a new statutory duty on schools to record all incidents of bullying between pupils later The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth this year, and will specifically consult on whether Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): It is in our interests to schools should be obliged to record sexual bullying work with Russia to address a range of global issues, incidents. including the economic crisis, the Middle East peace process, non-proliferation of nuclear weapons and security in Afghanistan. To this end we have increasingly Schools: Evolution regular high-level bilateral contact. Deputy Prime Minister Question Kudrin visited London on 4 February 2009 for discussions Asked by Lord Dykes on the global economic crisis, including meetings with my right honourable friends the Chancellor of the To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Exchequer and the Foreign Secretary. The Chancellor will consider new measures to ensure that evolution and Deputy Prime Minister Kudrin issued a joint is properly and thoroughly taught in schools. statement after their talks. President Medvedev is also [HL1455] WA 75 Written Answers[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Written Answers WA 76

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, investing more than £60 million a year until 2010-11 to Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness allow young people to make decisions on what positive Morgan of Drefelin): The science programme of study activities and facilities should be funded in their local already sets out the legal requirements of the National area. Curriculum. It clearly states that pupils should be taught: Sri Lanka how uncertainties in scientific knowledge and scientific ideas change over time; Question the role of the scientific community in validating Asked by The Earl of Sandwich these changes; To ask Her Majesty’s Government what diplomatic that variation within species can lead to evolutionary efforts they are making (a) in New Delhi, and (b) in changes; and, Colombo, to secure a peaceful settlement in Sri similarities and differences between species can be Lanka. [HL1541] measured and classified. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): We discuss the situation Severn River Crossing plc in Sri Lanka regularly with the Sri Lankan and Indian Question Governments, expressing our view that for peace to be Asked by Baroness Scott of Needham Market sustainable, an inclusive political process that takes fully into account the legitimate concerns of all Sri To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much Lankan communities—Sinhalese, Tamil and Muslim—is value added tax was collected from Severn River essential. We also continue to engage with the broader Crossing plc during (a) November, and (b) December international community on the need to make progress 2008. [HL1145] towards a lasting political solution to the conflict in Sri Lanka. The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Myners): Section 18 of the Commissioners for Taxation: Inheritance Tax Revenue and Customs Act 2005 does not permit HM Questions Revenue and Customs to disclose information relating to the tax affairs of individual businesses. Asked by Lord Inglewood To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Sport: Young People chattels, and of what value, were conditionally exempted from inheritance tax in (a) 2005, (b) 2006, Question (c) 2007, and (d) 2008. [HL1119] Asked by Lord Clement-Jones To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many chattels conditionally exempt from inheritance tax, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps and of what value, have been de-exempted since they are taking to implement the recommendations 2005. [HL1120] of the Audit Commission, in its report Tired of Hanging About, in respect of sports and leisure projects for young people. [HL1327] The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Myners): The number of chattels conditionally exempted in each of the years requested is as shown in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, the table below: Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness Morgan of Drefelin): At the time of publication the Chattels conditionally exempted from inheritance tax Government were already in the process of implementing Year of designation as exempt Number of chattels many of the measures recommended in the report. 2005 699 Local authorities already have much more flexibility 2006 5,718 on the use of funding which will allow them to fund 2007 1,451 projects on a longer term basis. For example, a total of 2008 1,256 £222 million has been made available for a three-year period from 2008-11 to provide activities for disaffected Estimated values of chattels conditionally exempted young people at risk of antisocial behaviour and crime. are recorded separately from the number of items and The total amount of ring-fenced funding (excluding sometimes at a later point in the process. The values schools) will reduce from 11.2 per cent in 2008-09 to for a year shown in the table below do not therefore 8 per cent in 2010-11. The Government are also investing correspond to the yearly counts of items above. heavily in activities and facilities ensuring that they are available at times when young people need them. Chattels conditionally exempted from inheritance tax Investment of more than £200 million in the myplace Year Estimated value (£ millions) initiative will transform the facilities available for young 2005 231 people alongside strong encouragement to LAs to 2006 47 open facilities and provide activities on Friday and 2007 65 Saturday night. To help ensure that services are responsive 2008 83 to young people’s needs, the Government are also WA 77 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 78

5,023 chattels have ceased to benefit from conditional including indigenous capacity building, to help avert exemption since 1 January 2005. The value recorded conflict, reduce violence and build sustainable security (which excludes the value for a small number of cases and peace” (FCO PSA 4 iii). where for technical reasons there was no tax charge on The trilateral (FCO, Ministry of Defence and cessation) amounts to £39 million. Department for International Development) Conflict The figures provided include chattels that have been Prevention Pool (CPP) and Stabilisation Aid Fund granted conditional exemption in their own right, and (SAF) support the Government’s conflict prevention the historically associated contents of historic houses. policy in line with the PSA. The CPP currently supports conflict prevention work in a number of regions (Africa, Americas, Balkans, Russia and Commonwealth of Terrorism Independent States, South Asia, Middle East and Question North Africa). The SAF supports stabilisation and reconstruction activity in Iraq and Afghanistan. Asked by Baroness Northover To ask Her Majesty’s Government in what way Transport: Heavy Goods Vehicles their previous commitment that “Where the United Questions Kingdom can make a significant contribution, the Department for International Development, the Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Ministry of Defence will work in partnership with others to: To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the ... promote initiatives in selected countries, including Written Answer by Lord Adonis on 4 February indigenous capacity building, to help … build (WA 134-35) and in the light of the proportion of sustainable security”, outlined under Foreign and heavy goods vehicles prohibited by the Vehicle and Commonwealth Office Public Service Agreement 4 Operator Services Agency which are from the Republic in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office Public of Ireland and Northern Ireland, what action they Service Agreement 2003–06 Technical Note, is reflected will take with the administrations of the Republic in their current set of Public Service Agreements of Ireland and Northern Ireland to address this for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and in issue. [HL1459] its strategic priorities. [HL1302] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their response following the report that over half of The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth heavy goods vehicles fail compliance checks at Dalar Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): As part of the Hir, Holyhead; and what action they propose to Comprehensive Spending Review (CSR’07) HM Treasury take. [HL1463] sought to streamline the number of public service agreements (PSAs) across Government, focusing on The Minister of State, Department for Transport the highest priority outcomes. This resulted in a slimmed (Lord Adonis): The Department for Transport’s Vehicle down set of 30 PSAs, reduced from over 100 during and Operator Services Agency (VOSA) routinely reports SR’04. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) all breaches of road-safety law by foreign-registered leads on PSA 30 (“reduce the impact of conflict vehicles to the relevant authorities of the state for through enhanced UK and international efforts”). follow-up action. VOSA also has an arrangement with The FCO’s Departmental Strategic Objective 6 (DSO6) the Irish authorities for reciprocal visits by enforcement for 2008-09 to 20 10/11 “Prevent and Resolve Conflict” staff to share knowledge and experience about improving is linked closely to PSA 30. compliance. In addition VOSA has seconded a senior member of its staff to the Irish Road Safety Authority In order to achieve PSA 30, the Government are to help focus attention on non-compliant operators, taking a strategic, long-term approach to international and to advise on appropriate and effective enforcement security and conflict issues, investing in international action. institutions, and building UK capability to plan, co-ordinate and deploy civilian and military resources. To tackle high levels of non-compliance we intend The UK is looking at the widest possible range of shortly to introduce new provisions under the Road activities, from conflict prevention and resolution through Safety Act 2006 which will enable VOSA and the to stabilisation, post-conflict reconstruction, development police to require a financial penalty deposit from any and other aspects of state-building (including building non-UK driver who fails to comply with GB road democratic processes and institutions, the rule of law traffic law. These provisions, known as the Graduated and respect for human rights) and the important link Fixed Penalty, Financial Penalty Deposits and into long-term and sustainable development. Immobilisation Scheme (GFP/DS) will enable police officers and VOSA examiners to: Of the four indicators which support PSA 30, indicator 2 “reduced impact of conflict in specific countries and issue fixed penalties to non-UK-resident offenders—in regions (Afghanistan, Iraq, Balkans, Middle East, Sierra respect of both non-endorsable and endorsable Leone, Democratic Republic of Congo and the Great offences; Lakes region, Horn of Africa, Nigeria and Sudan)” request immediate financial deposits from non- and indicator 3 “more effective international institutions, UK-resident offenders (equivalent to an on-the- better able to prevent, manage and resolve conflict spot fine)—either in respect of a fixed penalty or as and build peace” continue the work set out in PSA a form of surety in respect of an offence which is to 2003-06 to “promote initiatives in selected countries, be prosecuted in court; and, WA 79 Written Answers[24 FEBRUARY 2009] Written Answers WA 80

immobilise vehicles in any case where a driver or November, and the visit of my right honourable friend vehicle has been prohibited from continuing a the Minister of State, Bill Rammell, in December. journey or in any case where a driver declines to Asked by Lord Dykes pay the requested deposit. Subject to parliamentary consideration, the scheme To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will be implemented in April. will make representations to the Government of We are also making an extra £24 million available Israel about the number of Palestinian residents in to VOSA over three years to help it to boost further the West Bank being attacked by Israeli settlers. the levels of enforcement. [HL1103] Lord Malloch-Brown: The Israeli Government, including the Prime Minister, have condemned the West Bank violence carried out by the settlers against Palestinian Questions civilians and also Israeli military personnel. Asked by Lord Dykes While we welcome this, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary raised the issue with Defence To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Minister, Ehud Barak on 20 October. My right honourable will make representations to the Government of friend the Minister of State, Bill Rammell, visited Israel with a view to reducing the number of illegal Hebron in December to get a first hand appreciation Israeli settlements in the West Bank, in line with of the problem. We will continue to raise our concerns. assurances given by Israeli Ministers three years Asked by Lord Dykes ago to the United Kingdom and the European Union. [HL1102] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they are aware of any current settlement expansion by the Israeli authorities in the West Bank. [HL1265] The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): The UK’s position has Lord Malloch-Brown: We are aware that settlements been consistently clear: settlements are illegal and continue to grow in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. their expansion is an obstacle to the peace process. We are very concerned about this expansion and have We frequently raise this issue, including during my made repeatedly clear that we regard it as unacceptable right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary’s visit in and illegal.

Tuesday 24 February 2009

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Benefits: Disability ...... 13 Guantanamo Bay: Binyam Mohamed ...... 15

Schools: Revenue Balances ...... 16 Defamation Proceedings: Costs ...... 13 Sustainable Communities: Local Spending Reports...... 17 EU: Environment Council ...... 14 Transport: Drivers’ Hours ...... 18 Fishing: Trawlermen Scheme ...... 15 UK Government Decontamination Service ...... 20

Tuesday 24 February 2009

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Banking: UK Financial Investments Ltd ...... 35 House of Lords Reform...... 49

Belfast Agreement ...... 35 Human Rights ...... 49

Chagos Islands ...... 35 Immigration: Sub-Saharan Africa ...... 50

Children: Domestic Violence ...... 36 India: Freedom of Religion ...... 54

Children: Lifetime Number ...... 36 Iran...... 55

Children: Refuges ...... 36 Iran: British Council...... 55

Children: Sexual Exploitation...... 37 Iran: Human Rights ...... 56

Climate Change: Research ...... 37 Iraq...... 56

Co-operation Ireland ...... 38 Israel...... 56

Crime: Money-laundering ...... 38 Israel and Palestine...... 57

Cuba: Prisoners ...... 39 Malaysia: War Crimes ...... 57

Democratic Republic of Congo: Rape ...... 39 Middle East Peace Process...... 57

Education: PSHE ...... 40 Money: Banknotes...... 58

Equality...... 40 National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence...... 59

EU: Israel Association Agreement...... 41 Nationality ...... 59

Families: Single-parent Families ...... 41 Northern Ireland Office: Bonuses ...... 60

Financial Services Authority...... 42 Northern Ireland Office: Electricity...... 61

Gaza ...... 42 Northern Ireland Office: Overtime ...... 61

Government Departments: Staffing...... 44 Northern Ireland Office: Staff...... 62

Government: IT...... 45 Northern Ireland Office: Taxis...... 62

Government: Legislation ...... 46 Northern Ireland Office: Travel ...... 62

Hajj Advisory Group...... 47 Northern Ireland Parades Commission ...... 63

Health: Irish Community Groups...... 48 Northern Ireland: Parity of Esteem...... 63

Homeless People...... 48 Pakistan...... 64 Col. No. Col. No. Pakistan: Blasphemy Laws...... 64 Russia ...... 73

Parents...... 65 Schools: Bullying ...... 74

Passports ...... 66 Schools: Evolution...... 74 Severn River Crossing plc ...... 75 Police: Northern Ireland ...... 67 Sport: Young People ...... 75 Post Office: Banking ...... 67 Sri Lanka...... 76 Presbyterian Mutual Society...... 68 Taxation: Inheritance Tax...... 76 Republic of Ireland: Treaties...... 68 Terrorism...... 77

Revenue and Customs: Staff ...... 72 Transport: Heavy Goods Vehicles...... 78

Roads: Traffic Signs...... 73 West Bank ...... 79 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL522] ...... 57 [HL1126] ...... 64

[HL761] ...... 45 [HL1131] ...... 35

[HL904] ...... 67 [HL1132] ...... 65

[HL914] ...... 42 [HL1141] ...... 50

[HL917] ...... 41 [HL1145] ...... 75

[HL993] ...... 63 [HL1158] ...... 47

[HL1024] ...... 42 [HL1159] ...... 47

[HL1025] ...... 49 [HL1160] ...... 47

[HL1043] ...... 38 [HL1161] ...... 47

[HL1051] ...... 66 [HL1162] ...... 47

[HL1057] ...... 48 [HL1165] ...... 68

[HL1079] ...... 42 [HL1166] ...... 39

[HL1084] ...... 43 [HL1184] ...... 60

[HL1085] ...... 43 [HL1187] ...... 63

[HL1086] ...... 43 [HL1219] ...... 58

[HL1088] ...... 43 [HL1222] ...... 48

[HL1098] ...... 57 [HL1227] ...... 73

[HL1099] ...... 58 [HL1229] ...... 57

[HL1100] ...... 58 [HL1231] ...... 64

[HL1101] ...... 44 [HL1245] ...... 39

[HL1102] ...... 79 [HL1252] ...... 56

[HL1103] ...... 80 [HL1260] ...... 44

[HL1106] ...... 60 [HL1261] ...... 44

[HL1119] ...... 76 [HL1262] ...... 56

[HL1120] ...... 76 [HL1263] ...... 57

[HL1123] ...... 44 [HL1265] ...... 80 Col. No. Col. No. [HL1284] ...... 38 [HL1406] ...... 37

[HL1285] ...... 72 [HL1408] ...... 37

[HL1288] ...... 62 [HL1416] ...... 46

[HL1302] ...... 77 [HL1421] ...... 36

[HL1316] ...... 65 [HL1422] ...... 36

[HL1318] ...... 73 [HL1424] ...... 37

[HL1319] ...... 55 [HL1428] ...... 59

[HL1323] ...... 55 [HL1430] ...... 59

[HL1327] ...... 75 [HL1432] ...... 61

[HL1329] ...... 68 [HL1436] ...... 40

[HL1332] ...... 68 [HL1437] ...... 66

[HL1334] ...... 60 [HL1438] ...... 41

[HL1371] ...... 60 [HL1439] ...... 46

[HL1372] ...... 62 [HL1455] ...... 74

[HL1373] ...... 45 [HL1459] ...... 78

[HL1374] ...... 45 [HL1463] ...... 78

[HL1376] ...... 45 [HL1466] ...... 67

[HL1383] ...... 74 [HL1468] ...... 63

[HL1384] ...... 50 [HL1473] ...... 36

[HL1385] ...... 55 [HL1475] ...... 49

[HL1386] ...... 56 [HL1491] ...... 50

[HL1393] ...... 35 [HL1492] ...... 52

[HL1396] ...... 67 [HL1531] ...... 42

[HL1401] ...... 62 [HL1538] ...... 61

[HL1403] ...... 40 [HL1540] ...... 35

[HL1404] ...... 74 [HL1541] ...... 76

[HL1405] ...... 74 [HL1546] ...... 37 Volume 708 Tuesday No. 35 24 February 2009

CONTENTS

Tuesday 24 February 2009 Questions Benefits: Winter Fuel Allowance ...... 97 Statute Law Database ...... 99 Economy: Arts and Culture...... 101 Energy: Renewable Gas ...... 104 Health: Disease Control (Intergovernmental Organisations Committee Report) Motion to Take Note ...... 105 Freedom of Information Act 2000 Statement...... 130 Energy: Renewables (Economic Affairs Committee Report) Motion to Take Note ...... 142 Human Rights: Religious Belief Question for Short Debate ...... 175 Grand Committee Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Bill [HL] Committee (Seventh Day)...... GC 55 Written Statements...... WS 13 Written Answers...... WA 3 5