Amateur Astronomy WITH AN ATTITUDE from Chaos Manor South! Rod Mollise’s
May - June 2002 Volume 11, Issue 3
“A Newsletter for the Truly Skywatch Outbound!” Number 62 (New Series) 70s. There was this new scope
A “premium” dew heater I was happy for a while, anyway. 3 My Back Pages! controller… After a few hours I noticed that stars
Rod Mollise weren’t as sharp as they had been. And the brighter ones were developing foggy little haloes. Was What do you do about dew? Do something wrong with my new you worry about dew? baby? Yep. A look at the corrector showed it to be a dripping mess. You do if you live in a location where Thus ended my first observing run
high humidity makes nature’s little, with the Orange Tube. It was a nice damp gift a prime enemy of the demonstration of what happens working observer. Since I live on the when you point a big lens at the Gulf of Mexico coast, dew is an heat-sucking sky in a humid
omnipresent fact of my observing environment: dew “falls” (or “forms,” life. Many a promising Summer really ). Since it appeared that I was observing session has been ruined back in the Southeastern United over the years by fogged, dripping, States to stay, I knew I had to do dew-SLIMEY optics! But with the something to make my Summer release of the Dew Buster Controller (and Fall, Spring and sometimes I’ve gone nuclear in my war against Winter) evenings less miserable midnight optics baths! dew-wise. But what?
What’s a Dew Skywatch Buster? How does 1207 Selma Street it bust dew? Mobile, AL 36604 U.S.A. Let’s not get ahead of the story. Let me turn back the clock to those stone-age days of amateur astronomy, the early
...... First Blood. this was not the ideal solution, didn’t just plug these into a 12volt either. Sure, a zapper would get rid battery as you had the kitchen table Step one was one of those thingies of the dew, but in damp conditions it masterpieces or the earliest like I saw on the ends of my becomes real old, real soon to have commercial dew heaters, you buddies’ Unitron refractors: to keep zapping the corrector every plugged them into a controller. This dewshields. A dew shield is a simple couple of minutes. allowed you to vary the power to the thing that works on a simple heaters, keeping your optics dry and principle. It’s nothing more than an Perfect? your battery alive for a whole extension of the tube in front of the observing run! And man did the corrector (or objective). It works by We amateurs are not known to let a Kendrick System work! I still shielding the lens from the normal, problem go unsolved forever when it remember my first use of the full 180 degree view of warmth- comes to our beloved equipment— Kendricks on my C8. At a horribly sucking space that it would maybe a decade or two, but no dewy star party, I, the only person otherwise be looking at. For people more! Late astronomy entrepreneur with this new-fangled “System,” had in some parts of the country, a Roger Tuthill turned things up a the only undewed scope left on the dewshield is all that’s needed. For notch by introducting his “No-Dew field by midnight. areas with low humidity and light Heated Dew-Caps.” These things dew, you can probably get away worked, more or less, but were a Nothin’ is perfect. with just a shield. Even if you live in little clunky. And expensive--at a dew-heavy area, a dewshield is a about a hundred bucks a pop (C8 So the Kendrick System is all you good investment since it serves as a size) in big 1980s dollars. But a need? Can’t be improved upon? light shield and tends to keep better idea was already coming off That’s what I thought ‘til last Fall. I inquisitive fingers off your corrector amateur kitchen tables. Eventually, was at our local star party, the Deep plate. somebody cracked the code as South Regional Star Gaze, one regards dew. Make yourself a humid PM when Louisiana amateur Things heat up. heating element to go around the Ron Keating trotted over holding corrector plate. Make it from a string what I at first thought was a For observing locations where dew of resistors Work things out so that Kendrick controller. Nope, said Ron, is heavy and dewshields alone just a leetle heat is applied, just this was a Dew Buster. A eventually fail to keep optics dry enough to keep the corrector dry. “replacement” or “alternative” (usually just at the moment when Glue ‘em around the end of the controller for use with the Kendrick you’re finally about to track down the tube. Or maybe tape ‘em in place. heating elements. Ron told me he Horsehead in your C8), there’s just really had something, he thought, one way to prevent dew: keep the No doubt there were a couple of and with the help of some corrector (or objective, or eyepiece, these “dew heaters” made associates, was planning on putting or whatever) warmer than the commercially before Jim Kendrick the controller (and maybe some of ambient temperature. It doesn’t came along, but he was the man his own heating strips) into have to be much warmer—just who really brought the idea to production. “Why?” said Skeptical warmer. Various devices came fruition. Canadian artist Kendrick Old Rod. “You can’t improve on the along to do just that. First were the was a new scope owner who Kendrick System, can you?” Ron blow dryers. I mean it! Just a blow couldn’t believe that these silly, said the thought he could, and had, dryer you swiped from Sis or SILLY amateur astronomers hadn’t and proceeded to tell me the how girlfriend (or your own, maybe-- come up with a better way to keep and why. these were the 70s, the days of Big dew off a C8. Hair for everybody). This really Goliath Kendrick has a weak worked. So long as you did it right. If nobody else would, Jim would. By spot? You couldn’t pump 1500 watts onto the early 90s he was selling the the scope—do that and you’d find “Kendrick Dew Remover System.” When people first see the knob on that it took quite some time for your And what a system it was! He the Kendrick controller, they just optics to reacclimatize. You had to produced heating elements that naturally assume it varies the use gentle heat, and you had to looked good and worked well, with temperature of the heating have a source of AC or a big the active elements being built into elements. It must be a thermostat, battery/inverter combo. A better nice cloth strips that were fastened right? Wrong. As is clearly stated in choice for astronomy was the little around your corrector/objective or the Kendrick literature, the system 12volt blow dryers, which were sold other optics with Velcro. From the doesn’t know anything about the as window defrosters in truck stops beginning, he made heaters for temperature. The farther you or, quickly, as “dew zappers” by everything from a .965” eyepiece to advance the control, the longer enterprising scope merchants. But a C14. And, most importantly, you power is applied to the heating 2 ...... Skywatch elements. On “low,” they get power several late-nighters. I did mention 40% of the time. Crank it up to “full” to Ron that if he’d send me a A glance at the (simple, but clear) and current flows constantly. This production model once he got going, instruction manual reveals that the 6 works OK, but it is not the perfect I’d let the folks know what I thought AUX jacks are not temperature situation. Most people, seeing dew of it. He replied in the affirmative controlled. These are intended for beginning to form on the tube of the and that was that and there matters your “accessory” heaters: scope, have a tendency to crank up stood for a couple of months. One eyepieces, finder objectives, the Kendrick all the way until the March afternoon, however, a little Telrads, whatever. The heaters heater elements feel warm to used for these items are the touch. This is bad for relatively small and of low several reasons. First, the wattage. They don’t draw a lot heaters don’t have to be hot to of battery power, so merely work, they just have to keep cycling them off and on like the lens above ambient. the Kendrick controller does its Turning them up may introduce heaters does not adversely seeing-destroying air currents affect battery life. Also, getting or may even cause the a finder objective or eyepiece corrector to deform slightly. a little hotter than necessary is And you will suck down the really not a huge problem. battery in a hurry. These outputs supply current to the heaters 40% if the time, Out Kendricking the just like the Kendrick Kendrick. Controller at its lowest setting. But they have an added, very The Dew Buster out-does the package appeared at my front door. nice feature. When the Dew Buster Kendrick by doing what you first “Ahhhh…astrogoodies from is first turned on, it supplies “boost assumed the Kendrick would; the somebody,” I said in my best power” to the AUX jacks. This initial dew buster senses the temperature Homer-Simpson-meets-the-donuts 100% power application means that and maintains it at a constant figure. voice. Ripping the box open the accessory heaters warm up It’s just like the thermostat on your revealed a full-up Dew Buster. quickly. If they started out at 40% it central heater at home. Once you’ve would take a heck of a long time to got an idea of how damp the It’s not an overstatement to say I get them warm enough, making the evening will be, you set the was quite impressed. I’ve seen a lot formation of dew a possibility. controller to the required of garage-type astro products over But the stars of the show are the 2 temperature above ambient air the years, some of them really good, AUTO jacks. These AUTO temperature (the dial’s scale but almost all having that receptacles work in conjunction with indicates degrees above ambient-- “homebrew” look. Not the Dew a temperature probe that plugs into see figure 1) and forget it. The Buster. It looked every bit as a mini-jack on the top right surface Buster will maintain that temperature “professional” as the Kendrick to of the Buster. The probe all night long. And your scope will me. Since it had been some months incorporates 2 sensors; one is remain dew free. And you’ll use no since I’d seen the prototype, though, placed under your corrector heater more power from your poor battery I was surprised that, when you got strip (see figure 2). The other than need be. And you won’t get the beyond the good looks it shares with senses ambient air temperature. corrector (or objective if you’re a the K, how different this controller is. When everything is set up and refractor type) too hot. And, best of working, the AUTO output keeps all, once you’ve got the Buster set For Starters, in place of the your corrector at a selectable you won’t have to WORRY about Kendrick’s 4 output plugs, this temperature of from 0 to 25 degrees it or the dew any more! sucker has 8. And that’s a good above ambient (depending on the
thing if you have heaters for setting of the temperature controller How well did it work at Pine everything and lots of piggyback knob) by pulsing power to the heater Lake? stuff riding on your OTA like I do. at from 0 to 100% of the time as
Sure, you can use splitters for the NEEDED. I had a chance to use Ron’s Kendrick outputs, but that’s a prototype the last evening of the star clumsy solution. I further noted that What else is different about the Dew party, and was impressed. It kept 6 of the elements were labeled Buster? In place of the Kendrick’s my optics dry at any rate. But I was “AUX,” while 2 were labeled single red power light, this baby has more focused on observing than on “AUTO.” What was up with that? three LEDs, two reds and a yellow. a dew controller, and was tired from ...... 3 The left-most indicator, “AUX” Combine an unseasonably warm indicates power is applied to the March night, a body of water AUX heaters, as you’d guess. The only 100 meters away, and very right-most LED blinks as current high humidity, and I figured the flows to the temperature-controlled Buster would be put to the AUTO jacks as required. The yellow ultimate test. LED is the system’s low-battery indicator, and is just the outward The first order of business was indicator for a rather sophisticated getting the system set-up on my low-power management system. At Celestron Ultima C8. I was a little Buster. I’d occasionally glance at 11.5 volts, the yellow LED glows leery of routing yet another wire on the controller just to be reassured by dimly, indicating your battery has the scope—the temperature probe— the friendly pulsing “AUTO” LED just about had it. When voltage but this device is connected to the that everything was well. I was drops to about 11.2V, the LED controller with comparatively light- running the system off a small 7 glows brightly and power to the gauge cable, and didn’t make my amp-hour battery pack that I like to heaters is immediately shut down. scope look any more like an octopus use with the C8, since it’s nice and Since many lead acid batteries will than it already does. All the heating light. A couple of times I’ve come be ruined if you drain them too far, elements went on as normal, with close to draining it with the Kendrick this feature may save you from everything but the corrector heater after a full night of observing. Not buying another lawn-tractor battery, plugging into the AUX jacks. Since with the Dew Buster. At the end of something that’s happened to me the night was sure to be WET, I’d the evening, my wimpy little battery more than once. brought out the complete arsenal, pack still had plenty of get-up-and- with heaters for finder go! objective, finder eyepiece, Telrad and main Should you get a Dew Buster? eyepiece. Installing the That depends. If you live where the C8’s corrector heater was dew ain’t bad, you can probably get slightly different on this by with the Kendrick controller at 75 night, since I knew the dollars (plus the cost for heaters, temperature sensor would naturally). It’s a fine, well-made be involved. A glance at piece of equipment. Mine’s been the instructions showed providing excellent service for 7 that the “telescope years now. And the Dew Buster sensor” was to be placed controller does cost more, at about underneath the corrector $150.00. The Buster is not a heater strip and held in “replacement” for the excellent place with a small clip. Kendrick; it’s the next step up, a The dew shield would then be premium alternative. The Dew Buster comes with a nice, placed over the heater and sensor. long (about 10’) power cord The ambient air sensor, which But the Dew Buster works better. terminated in a heavy duty cigarette- extends out from the telescope It’s not just the cool lights, or the lighter-type male plug. Ron says that sensor, would extend forward of the temperature sensors, or the extra the plug is rated for 10 amps, more scope sensor and must not touch jacks. All that is just icing. It does a than most C14s covered with the scope. Since I use a hard-plastic better job of keeping your optics dry heaters will need, but that the Buster dew shield, I had to modify these under demanding conditions. And if itself is rated for a whopping 20 instructions slightly, but everything you, like me, live in a virtual swamp, amps internally, and can be special- worked just as advertised (figure 3). you owe it to yourself to stop losing ordered with an even heavier-duty observing time because of dewed power cord. optics, stop losing hair trying to get
your dew heaters running right, and But how would this fancy-shmancy losing money buying yet another K- thing work in the real world? I set And that’s the bottom line. How did mart tractor battery. At less than the out to find out. The first opportunity I everything work? Incredibly well. cost of a mid-grade eyepiece, how had to try the Buster was at the My scope optics were free of dew all can you go wrong with the Dew March Members-Only-Star-Party evening long. I started out at 10 Buster? Well, you can’t. Go get one, that I run for my club, the Mobile degrees above ambient, didn’t touch boys and girls. Astronomical Society, at our Pine the control all night long, and
Lake facility. Yep, I said “lake.” basically just forgot about the nice 4 ...... Skywatch How do you get one? Just go here Confused yet? It’s “The only · Sorts and prints all catalogs and all your questions will be scientific-grade interactive with very flexible criteria for answered: astronomical ephemeris software creating custom observing http://www.gbronline.com/ronkeating package that is available on all lists; /dewbuster.html leading platforms: Microsoft Windows, Apple Macintosh and · Downloads current asteroid Note: The skies have not been good UNIX-like systems including Linux and comets lists from Lowell this Spring, so I’ve only had a and FreeBSD!” and MPC; chance to try the Buster with my C8. I now have a NexStar 11 (C11) “Come on now! WHAT IS XEPHEM?!” · Downloads timely Earth here, and will annotate this review satellite orbital TLE with a report on its use with a larger OK, OK, keep your shirt on. It’s parameters; aperture scope just as soon as simple, XEphem is a small possible. revolution in astronomy software. · Downloads Digitized Sky It’s an ephemeris generator, sure, Survey FITS files from STScI but it’s also a superb planetarium or ESO; program. And it has advanced JUST What the features and an incredibly “open” · Displays seti@home client structure that let you add catalogs progress and plots position and images to make it into one of being processed on Sky View heck is an the strongest “deep sky” programs map. I’ve ever seen, more than powerful “XEphem?!” enough to take on the most Oh…and it’s FREE. advanced observing programs and Rod Mollise to leave some very advanced (and “FREE? Yeah, right. What’s the pricey) astronomy software in the catch? There’s always a catch.” dust. A very truncated list of XEphem’s list of features includes: Well, there is one small catch…to run XEphem in an optimum fashion · Computes heliocentric, on a PC, you really need to run it geocentric and topocentric under the Linux operating system. information for all objects; The Windows “version” is not free (or even close to it), as it’s really the · Has built-in support for all Unix/Linux version with included planets; the moons of Mars, software tools (which are what Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and you’re paying for) to make the thing Earth; central meridian run under Windows. longitude of Mars and Jupiter; XEphem 3.5.2 Saturn's rings; and Jupiter's “Linux?! ARRGH! The ultimate geek Elwood Downey Great Red Spot. pastime! Lemme out of here!” Clear Sky Institute · Allows user-defined objects Now, hold on just a minute, Bunky! “Hey! What’s this XEphem (eks-i- including stars, deepsky Yes, in the past Linux has been, 'fem) that I keep hearing you astro- objects, asteroids, comets and along with its brother/cousin Unix, geeks going-on about?” Earth satellites. the max in geekware: hard to install, hard to learn, hard to fix when things According to its developer, Elwood · Offers many large databases go wrong. Luckily, though, things Downey, it’s “The Serious including Tycho, Hipparcos, have changed. Modern distributions Astronomical Software Ephemeris.” GSC, USNO. (“distros”) of Linux, and particularly And I know that sounds pretty, well, the Red Hat distro are just as easy serious. What can we glean from · Graphically displays a 24 hour to install as Microsoft Windows the Xephem website at period showing when any (well, almost). With a little help from http://www.clearskyinstitute.com/xep selected objects are up; a computer savvy buddy, you can hem/xephem.html? That the rather even partition off a couple of gigs of odd name for this program is a · Displays 3-D stereo views of hard drive space on your Win Box, combination of X-Windows (as in the Solar System that are install Linux in that partition, and Unix) and ephemeris (as in particularly well suited for happily run XEphem and a wealth of astronomical ephemeris, natch). visualizing comet trajectories; other Linux/Unix astro software ...... 5 (there’s a lot out there; especially task you may find difficult and scary set to your liking, you can save them image processing stuff) while not at first. Instead, look around the from here, too. You can do some giving up your beloved Windows. web—there are quite a few sources practical work here as well, including And you might even learn for the XEphem RPM (a ready to generating ephemeris tables (this something about computers in the install version of the program—you program is called xEPHEM, after all). process! basically click in your X-Windows desktop and go). Just use Google to “OK,
6 ...... Skywatch CGCG galaxy catalog that I’d ALT/AZ on the toolbar at the top of familiar. downloaded off the net. Copies of the screen). The bottom scroll these resources converted to controls the remaining axis— XEphem is that fabled Horse of a XEphem format were easy to find on declination or azimuth as required. Different Color in quite a few ways, the web, but making other Or you can right-click on objects or but Mr. Downey was wise enough to downloadable catalogs into XEphem locations on the screen and choose stay close enough to the format files is relatively easy. As you can “center” from the resulting menu of we’re used to to make the program see, the final result is very choices to move around. But the very easy to learn. Most of the competitive with some very well- sliders work so well that I seldom program’s other most-used regarded commercial Windows resort to this. On a modern PC with functions work just as you’d expect programs. Better than quite a few a modern video card, Linux and ‘em to. In fact, you may even forget that I’ve wasted my hard-earned XEphem run so smoothly, that the you’re using Linux and XEphem bucks on, I’d say! changing display as you scroll once you start concentrating on around is a joy to watch: fast, printing star charts for your next But you don’t have to stop with a smooth, and precise. deep sky expedition (XEphem offers screen like Figure 2. Need more excellent printing support). I was stars? XEphem will read the Hubble The alt/az/RA/dec sliders are nice. taken aback for a moment when I Guide Star Catalog CDs sold by the But I did not really like the zoom looked at the bottom of the screen, Astronomical Society of the Pacific. slider, I must admit. I’m so used to at the taskbar, and didn’t see the Can’t afford—or don’t want to the method other astro programs familiar Windows Start button! afford—these? No problem. As long use, drawing a box with the mouse Instead there was the Gnome as you can get your Linux computer and clicking to zoom, that the slider desktop’s little footprint (don’t ask). on the Internet (Red Hat comes with seemed awkward and different. But “Oh, yeah, this is XEphem!” a copy of Netscape Navigator for the XEphem provides an alternative included Gnome X-Windows (“alternative” is a word you use a lot Is there anything I don’t like about desktop) you can download all the in association with XEphem--almost XEphem 3.5.2? A few things. There stars you need for free. XEphem will as much as “free”). You can click a is that zoom process. I much prefer go and get GSC stars as needed, a button on the right toolbar to enable the “standard” draw-box-and-click- process that’s pretty seamless if you box-dragging. Once you’ve drawn a in-box to zoom rather than have an always-on broadband box enclosing the area of the sky XEphem’s draw-box-move-mouse- Internet connection. you’re interested in, you click the “+” to-right-side-of-screen-find-button- zoom button on the right-hand click-button to zoom. On the other You can, naturally, manipulate your toolbar to zoom. Not quite the same hand, XEphem’s “unzoom” button is onscreen view as you wish by as dragging and clicking in the box very easy to access and use, unlike zooming and moving around the as we’re used to with other some Win programs, which require sky, just as you can with any planetariums, but still warmly you to open a menu to unzoom. I Windows planetarium. This is another place, admittedly, where XEphem goes its own way. Most of your movement will be done with scroll bars. The left slider controlls zoom, and the right one Right Ascension or altitude (depending on if you’ve selected RA/DEC or ...... 7 Figure 2 Zoomed in with the Tycho and CGCG catalogs turned on... also occasionally ran into problems I love XEphem, and if you can when zooming in to small areas. make peace with the Penguin
Sometimes the field stars I should (Linux), you will too! If I can help have been seeing at increased you get XEphem up and running,
“magnifications” weren’t drawn very please don’t hesitate to ask for quickly, with 5 or 10 seconds help! elapsing before a redraw. Sometimes, they didn’t get drawn at If old Rod (who’s still locked in the all. This was very occasional, TRS-80 Model1 computer days) though, and I could always fix this can get this fine, DEEP program by opening the Field Stars Dialog up and running, so can you! and hitting “apply”. I generally liked the idea of having a separate main menu apart from the Sky View window. This keeps the menus on the sky window uncluttered. But there were a few instances when I wished that some menu choices were in both places or just on the sky menu. But these times were rare. Once you get used to it, XEphem is very ergonomically sound.
How do I rate XEphem against that other well-known freeware astronomy giant, Cartes du Ciel? Well, there’s no doubt in my mind that Cartes is a more mature program. But XEphem is close, and in some ways maybe even superior, if not quite as fancy looking or feature-laden. XEphem is certainly in the lead when it comes to non-Windows computing. By the way, the new Apple Macintoshes run an operating system (OSX) that is Unix related/based, and there’s already a Mac version of XEphem for these machines. Each program has its strengths, and I rate both of these programs as “up there” with just about any commercial astronomy offerings.
XEphem, like CdC, possesses some fanatically loyal users, and, also like CdC, the author has set- up a Yahoo mailing list for the Figure 3 The Initial Skyview... program’s fans. Elwood Downey is OFTEN found there “in person”, answering questions from users, taking suggestions, and moderating an enthusiastic group . of Linux-loving Astro-software hounds!
8 ...... Skywatch
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Huh-huh…huh-huh, let us out buttmunch. We want Club Notes chicks…uhhhh…like Spring break chicks! Huh-huh, huh, huh!” Mobile Astronomical Society (MAS) Heh-heh, yeah, yeah…CHICKS…CHICKS! The May meeting was particularly With that, the twosome, apparently somewhat worse enjoyable and productive with a report the wear from their long trip in somewhat enclosed on the recent Fairhope Elementary Star confines, headed off not to the beach but towards an Atlas 5 gantry just as a launch was about to take place. Gaze. George Byron, Pat Rochford and Ah, well...the first idiots in space will be another laurel Judy Anderson brought their scopes out for NASA’s crown, I supposed. At any rate, turning and entertained and amazed scores of back to the trunk revealed, amidst the luggage and abandoned Nachos, that vaunted Mayo Jar little ones with views of the “planetary (hermetically sealed and kept on Funk and Wagnal’s alignment!” Quite a bit of discussion on back porch for a fortnight) the latest, and I do mean upcoming star parties, too, with Judy LATEST… departing for the Texas Star Party and Rod and Pat heading for Chiefland. Rumours
In Meade news…whatever happened to the LXD55 GEM SCT-USER goto scopes that had everybody so excited? They are here…sort of. Meade has finally started deliveries. But only The GRAND SECOND ANNUAL SCT USER in limited numbers, and only for some of the scopes. So far, Imaging Competition is now underway! We’re only the 6 inch SNT and the 5 inch achro refractor have hoping this year’s edition will be every bit as found their way to users. Verdict? Optics on both appear successful as the legendary 2001 contest. This pretty good, the mount is somewhat heavier-duty than the year there’s the added attraction of prizes CG 5, and the goto appears to work. The mount is apparently sturdy enough that Gary Hand is offering an donated by quite a few generous astro vendors! LXD mount with a Celestron 9.25 SCT OTA mounted on it! Meade does not sell the mount separately, so you have to buy the 6 SNT or the 5 refractor and the Celestron OTA. In How far would you go to escape Beavis and Butt- We should, MEADE SAYS, start seeing SOME 8 SNT head? I thought Cocoa Beach would be far enough. deliveries “any day now,” with the 10 SNT and 6 refractor However, opening the trunk of the car immediately to follow in early June—in dribs and drabs, I’d guess. revealed two stowaways: How’s the GPS LX200 doin’? Fair to middlin’ at least… the scope’s introduction has not been problem free, but most of the early QC issues have been cleaned up, with the
...... 9 remaining problems apparently centering on software (which Meade continues to update frequently.
How about the boys ‘n grrls at Celestron? Little birds are chirping that the justly admired CG 9.25 will FINALLY get a mounting worthy of its excellence…an NS mount. In other words, that’s right, get ready for a NEXSTAR 9.25 GPS SOON (whatever “soon” means in telescope-makerese)!
The Anonymous Astronomer
A NexStar 11 Comes to Live at Chaos Manor South…
10 ......