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DÁIL ÉIREANN AN COMHCHOISTE UM DHLÍ AGUS CEART, COSAINT AGUS COMHIONANNAS JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, DEFENCE AND EQUALITY Dé Céadaoin, 21 Samhain 2012 Wednesday, 21 November 2012 The Joint Committee met at 9.30 a.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Deputy Niall Collins, Senator Paul Bradford, Deputy Marcella Corcoran Kennedy, Senator Martin Conway, Deputy Robert Dowds,* Senator Denis O’Donovan, Deputy Seán Kenny, Senator Katherine Zappone. Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn, Deputy Finian McGrath, Deputy John Paul Phelan, * In the absence of Deputy Anne Ferris. In attendance: Deputy Michael Healy-Rae and Senator John Gilroy.. DEPUTY DAVID STANTON IN THE CHAIR. 1 GARDA Operations: DISCUSSION WITH AN GARDA SÍOCHÁNA The joint committee met in private session until 10.05 p.m. Garda Operations: Discussion with An Garda Síochána Chairman: The purpose of today’s meeting is to have discussions with the Garda Com- missioner on two main topics - first, recent gangland-related crimes and, second, community policing and the closure of Garda barracks. On behalf of the committee, I welcome the Garda Commissioner, Mr. Martin Callinan, the Deputy Garda Commissioner for operations, Ms Noirín O’Sullivan, the Deputy Garda Com- missioner for strategy and change management, Mr. Nacie Rice, the Assistant Garda Commis- sioner for national support services, Mr. Derek Byrne, and the Assistant Garda Commissioner for crime and security, Mr. John O’Mahoney. Superintendent David Taylor, Garda public rela- tions officer, is also present. The format of today’s meeting is that the Commissioner will make opening remarks, which will be followed by a questions and answers session. With the Commissioner’s agreement, I propose that we divide the session in two and deal with gangland crime first. After members have engaged on that subject, the Commissioner can make a presentation on the second topic, namely, community policing and the closure of Garda barracks, and members will engage on it. They are distinct areas. Mr. Martin Callinan: That is fine. Chairman: Before we begin, I draw the witnesses’ attention to the privilege situation. They should note that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence that they are to give to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect parlia- mentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifi- able. Members should also be aware that under salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I ask everybody to switch off their mobile telephones completely as they interfere with the recording. It is not sufficient for them to be put in silent mode. Mr. Martin Callinan: I am the first offender. I had the phone in silent mode and I will switch it off. I begin by thanking the Chairman and the committee for the opportunity to ad- dress them on such important issues as organised crime, station closures and community polic- ing. An Garda Síochána is committed to proactively targeting groups and individuals engaged in criminal activity, including organised criminal activities and white collar crime. Members of An Garda Síochána continue to utilise all available legislation in targeting, disrupting and bringing to justice those responsible. The fluidity of the membership, together with the incarceration of members and the ad hoc nature of the criminal enterprises at any given time challenges the calculation of numbers engaged in organised crime groups. That said, there are approximately 25 organised crime 2 JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, DEFENCE AND EQUALITY groups operating throughout the State. Whereas most organised crime groups are domestically orientated, there are a number that would have a significant international dimension, and such organised crime groups are reported to be involved in drugs, firearms, trafficking and other dimensions of the criminal code. We contribute to the Europol Serious and Organised Crime Threat Assessment, SOCTA, every year, working with international partners in providing infor- mation on all these groupings to that forum. Whereas organised crime groups are present in each Garda region, the majority of them are centred in large urban areas such as Limerick, Cork, Galway, Sligo and Dublin. There is a high amount of interaction between the various organised crime groups throughout the country who regularly pursue joint enterprises, particularly drug imports. The vast majority of organised crime groups are drug trafficking groups who are prepared to use violence and intimidation to further their aims. Each of these organised crime groups is structured hierarchically and would typically consist of a leadership, a number of middle-managers and low level criminals who could carry out day-to-day running of these organised crime groups. Organised crime groups in this jurisdiction continue to work closely with criminals in North- ern Ireland for the purpose of drugs and weapon procurement and supply, as well as a route to transport stolen goods. Organised crime groups with connections on both sides of the Border are utilising both Northern Ireland and this jurisdiction as transit routes, which is a legacy of the dark and distant past and some subversive groups. Links between dissident republicans and organised crime groups here continue to cause serious concern. A relationship of friction and facilitation appears to exist between organised crime groups in this jurisdiction and some dis- sident elements. Taxing and extortion of drug dealers by dissident republicans have occurred in recent years. Irish organised crime groups continue to forge and develop links to international criminal networks. Holland, Spain and the UK remain the key locations for foreign liaisons, mainly due to the established drug transportation routes. Associations between Irish and Russian organised crime groups have also been observed and they work together on drug and cigarette ventures. The presence of Russian organised crime groups operating in Spain is also influencing the ac- tivities of Irish criminals there. Garda executive action directed against organised crime groups consists of targeted intel- ligence-led operations utilising the resources of the national support services and crime and security branch in partnership with divisional and regional resources with a view to disrupting and dismantling these networks. There are a number of organised crime groups which travel between the regions engaging in residential and commercial burglaries, robberies and distrac- tion theft. These groups are targeted under a number of regional operations and nationally under Operation Fiacla. Since the enactment of the Criminal Justice (Amendment) Act 2009 on 23 July 2009, to 30 September this year the legislation has been used on 179 occasions where arrests have been made relating to organised crime. To 30 September 2012, eight individuals have been charged under the legislation, with six under section 72 of the Criminal Justice (Amendment) Act 2009, participating or contribution to certain activities; and two under Section 71A of the Act, direct- ing the activities of a criminal organisation. However, arising from the arrests of 179 persons since the commencement of this legislation, other charges have been preferred for firearms of- fences, sale and supply of drugs and drug trafficking, violent disorder, obtaining money with menaces, threats to kill, theft and ATM robberies, aggravated burglary with firearms, immigra- tion offences and offences related to the Post Office (Amendment) Act 1951 etc. 3 GARDA Operations: DISCUSSION WITH AN GARDA SÍOCHÁNA In the context of station closures----- Chairman: We might pause there and take station closures in a separate tranche of ques- tioning. These are two separate issues. Deputy Finian McGrath: I welcome the Garda Commissioner and the Garda management team. It has been indicated there are approximately 25 organised crime groups operating in this State. How many people are involved in this, including senior and middle people, right down to local people on the ground? Mr. Martin Callinan: This is particularly difficulty issue to quantify. Groups, by their na- ture and depending on the level of enterprise, have different numbers. If the gang is involved in drug importation or distribution, firearms or another illicit activity, it may merge and diversify with other groups. It is particularly difficult to quantify. Within these cores there may be six to 12 people. Beyond that in certain cases there are substantial numbers operating within the groups. Deputy Finian McGrath: Would there be 800 to 1,000 people directly involved? Mr. Martin Callinan: It would be dangerous to speculate, and that is also true in putting numbers on subversive organisations. Generally, there is an inner and outer core, with a net- work of loosely associated family members etc. For example, a particular group may be in- volved in conducting armed robberies for the purpose of procuring cash to buy drugs. It might farm out certain duties, such as stealing cars or other specialisation, to other criminals further down the food chain. It is particularly difficult to formulate a number. Deputy Finian McGrath: Do senior gardaí have a clear policy to deal with young people on the fringes of these gangs? For example, I get a regular complaint in my constituency that a person’s son is involved in low level crime with a gang. If the gardaí are on that person’s case, they may ask him to provide information. Is there a clear policy for families who wish to save children from being sucked into these gangs? That is happening at a local level, particularly in my constituency.